{"error":false,"id":["17097"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17097,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17097","日期":"2025-12-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-12-04T08:30:52+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-04T13:35:00+08:00","影片長度":"05:04:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a45cfcab5ea799a541e98b117513a6aeb4456b5c46cbb78c65c04ccf4921ec965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)民進黨黨團擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(三)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(四)委員林月琴等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(五)委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(六)委員許宇甄等23人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(八)委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(九)委員林楚茵等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十)委員劉建國等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十一)委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十二)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十三)委員李坤城等21人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十四)委員王正旭等23人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(十五)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十六)委員羅智強等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十七)委員盧縣一等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等25人擬具「外送平臺管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法草案」案。\n(十九)委員黃捷等16人擬具「外送員權益保障暨外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n(二十)委員劉建國等16人擬具「外送員權益保障及外送平臺管理法草案」案。\n【二、(十六)至(十八)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(十九)及(二十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:30:52 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現在先請這個勞動部針對這個洪峰愷等委員第7條進行說明第60頁"},{"start":2475.38,"end":2499.981,"text":"主席各位委員 以上的報告我們洪文凱的21人提案第15條也是我們劉建國16人的版本的第9條主要本條文的設計主要就是提供外送員等下這個後委司長你可能講錯條了是第60頁那也就是有關於雇傭關係的洪文凱委員版本的第7條"},{"start":2502.263,"end":2519.143,"text":"對 那民眾黨的第9條這個應該也要報告一下有關於洪孟愷等21億人委員提案的第7條許多委員有提到有關於外送人員與外送平台業者間為雇用關係者應適用勞動基金法規定這樣的一個規範"},{"start":2520.564,"end":2544.6,"text":"那確實我們也在前面的本法第一條已經明定有顧問關係的當然就適用勞基法還有特別有適用本法的一些特定的條文所以這個地方我們就建議不用再重複訂定以上說明好同意有沒有委員有意見同意好那這個這一條就不予採納接下來接下來到那個"},{"start":2552.459,"end":2571.47,"text":"劉建國委員等16人的第9條也就是洪孟楷委員的第15條台灣民眾黨的第7條以及王玉銘委員的第7條這條是然後還有王玉銘委員的修正動議這條是哪一個"},{"start":2584.59,"end":2611.898,"text":"那主席我可以講一下我的修正動議好請說有關於這一條的修正我的修正動議裡面特別提出來就是外送平台業者不得因外送員提出本法之申訴或協助他人申訴而對其不利的決定那這個主要是要保障我們外送員的申訴權不應該因為他有提出申訴而做出不利他的這個決定"},{"start":2613.24,"end":2628.468,"text":"那也請大家支持這一個我覺得應該要列入這個條文裡面以上說明謝謝好那是不是要請那個勞動部說明一下然後我們再請范雲委員發言好不好"},{"start":2631.391,"end":2645.368,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員的提案那我簡單來說明一下本條的立法的主要大致內容就是我們前面也提到外送員對於申訴是非常在意的所以我們特別在本條訂定了一些規範要求外送平台業者"},{"start":2646.189,"end":2663.667,"text":"應該要建立一些申訴制度那主要處理有幾大項一個就是有關於報酬的部分第二有關於停權跟終止服務期或其他對外送人不利的決定的部分第三個就是外送人跟商家或消費者就服務所發生的爭議的部分都可以在這個申訴制度去處理"},{"start":2664.768,"end":2676.353,"text":"然後我們還特別要明訂整個申訴制度要包含受理單位處理流程處理時間回覆方式還有申訴成立後的最重要他有個補償措施的內容而且外送平台應該公開給他揭露"},{"start":2677.386,"end":2705.636,"text":"那特別我們針對有關於終止服務外送企業因為這個情節非常重大對外送員的工作群有影響很大所以我們在本法特別有明定外送平台應該成立一個獨立的處理小組來受理外送員的申訴那我們原來的條文的設計是獨立的小組成員是三人其中工會代表至少一人那簽款工會代表以外的小組成員應該具備勞動法令專業或熟悉外送平台產業實務運作之外部專家學者擔任"},{"start":2707.157,"end":2727.68,"text":"特別還有一點就是他跟外送平台業者不能有利害關係經過我們這一段時間的聽取外界的意見以後我們建議有個修正條文還有今天那個王一鳴委員有提案我們重整各位的意見以後我們有個修正動議我們在上面我簡單跟各位說明一下"},{"start":2728.991,"end":2746.221,"text":"因為我們在這樣的一個申訴小組裡面有工會代表那事實上了解整個平台的運作其實除了需要的之外其實萬眾平台業者也應該理解所以也為了保持一個讓這樣的一個審視有更好的更明確的了解"},{"start":2746.901,"end":2771.667,"text":"所以我們這裡特別修正一下就是其中工會及外送平台業者代表至少各一人就是讓工會跟外送平台業者都可以在裡面把事實真相把它釐清那特別因為這樣的原因第二款我們就做文字上的修正就是當然這個外送平台業者以外的就應該不能有利害關係"},{"start":2773.227,"end":2794.184,"text":"最後一項就是王玉敏委員所提到的我們也覺得這個應該對外送員的保護保障也應該可以有比較好的一個設計但是我們文字可不可以委員那邊我們可以做一點文字的修正就是外送平台業者不得因外送員提出本法之申訴最主要是本法的申訴"},{"start":2795.184,"end":2806.853,"text":"然後呢或協助他人申訴而對其為不利的決定那我們一本法都是不利的就決定所以我們就簡文字可不可以做一點微調以上說明這個請范雲委員發言然後再請陳昭芝委員"},{"start":2819.49,"end":2845.203,"text":"這個劉建國委員這個第九條主要就是關於就是如果有一般來講不是勞資爭議可是這邊就是跟外送員平台相關的重要爭議譬如說薪資的部分然後停止他的工作的部分成立委員會那我的版本是寫申訴委員會那我想最後用獨立委員會或者是處理小組或是我們民進黨團的處理小組我都可以接受"},{"start":2845.743,"end":2875.246,"text":"那另外我在關於這個申訴委員會我有四個重點一個就是關於就是非公會代表部分要有勞動法令專業或者是熟悉相關運作的外部專家另外一個就是成員必須要像我們目前所有的委員會的單一性別不得少於三分之一那然後相關的剛剛講的熟悉勞動等那些專業不得少於二分之一"},{"start":2875.726,"end":2903.937,"text":"那還有關於委員會的組成運作申訴救濟程序等由中央主管機關另訂之因為我覺得救濟程序還是還是蠻重要的那最後一個就是外送平臺不得因外送員提出申訴或協助他人申訴而對其作出任何不利之處分那剛剛因為我看到勞動部的版本已經有把那個不利處分放進去了王玉敏委員也有提案"},{"start":2904.637,"end":2924.947,"text":"那關於專家的部分勞動部這個版本中也有寫喔但我想請教就是單一性別這個部分能不能夠納入在這個人數不能低於三人其中工會及外送平台業者代表至少各一人的後面加一句說單一性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":2925.787,"end":2951.712,"text":"另外就是關於申訴的程序如果勞動部不支持的話那用什麼方式可以處理因為通常這種委員會一定都會有申訴程序一定都會有一個需要救濟不滿的部分那這個部分怎麼處理因為他也沒有辦法直接去勞工局因為他不是勞基法以上"},{"start":2953.675,"end":2974.447,"text":"是要等陳昭志委員發言完 我們司長一併回應好不好好 謝謝主席因為今天是勞動部的版本是又增加了這個就是underline的這個幾個部分那我想請教說因為這一個第9條他會涉及最嚴重最後是一個終止外送員的這個服務契約"},{"start":2975.447,"end":3001.153,"text":"那這個人數不低於三人下那不低於三也是可以就是三人就成立那請問公會及外送平台業者至少代表各一人這個今天是特別加入這個外送平台業者代表剛剛有提到說是讓他們理解啦這個說法是可以我也可以理解但請問公會及外送平台業者代表以外的小組成員那這個外送平台業者進來因為你有可能是"},{"start":3001.893,"end":3022.159,"text":"不得第一層有五個人如果外送平台業者是兩個人或更多這個情況之下這個獨立性跟中立性或是對外送員的保護是足夠的嗎因為這是你額外增加的你額外增加一定有你的額外考量就是請一併回答謝謝我先回答"},{"start":3027.441,"end":3056.242,"text":"那個剛剛趙志偉人講這個我也覺得可以調一下我們的想法其實是因為之前這裡面要工會的代表因為他比較能夠反映外送員他的處境跟情境那的確裡面也我們認為如果一個橫屏的話有工會的代表也應該有平台業者代表所以我要不要直接改成說其中工會及外送平台代表"},{"start":3056.741,"end":3077.939,"text":"各一人就好了就是把至少各一人 因為剛剛趙指委員的意思是說有可能公會代表一人結果平台業者三人那這樣就看起來就不是很橫貧那還是我們直接把它調成公會及外送平台業者代表各一人"},{"start":3079.161,"end":3091.886,"text":"那就至少就是一對一其實人數是一樣的那都是有在裡面這樣子我們覺得可以這樣來修改這樣子接受部長這樣的安排好謝謝"},{"start":3093.345,"end":3121.978,"text":"那請羅廷輝委員發言我覺得說是改成至少不要至少啦代表各藝人這樣子就可以接受那另外昨天那個縣議委員有提到就是這個部分如果個案的話是在申訴的過程他具備著原住民的身份是不是在那一次的一個申訴的一個機制產生以後應該要有一個所謂的原住民代表這部分不知道"},{"start":3124.32,"end":3126.41,"text":"勞動部的態度是什麼 可不可以說一下"},{"start":3127.298,"end":3154.204,"text":"好 那請司長統一說明是 主席 各位委員有關於在那個委員會裡面是不是有關於性別跟可能是原住民身分那因為我們對於這個申訴委員會主要就是要探親 釐清那個事實最主要就是他們跟消費者之間很多的爭執跟爭議因為是有關於種植契約通常都是非常重大那這些行為的判斷跟釐清要涉及到一個獨立客觀的一個認定"},{"start":3154.984,"end":3180.892,"text":"那對我們來講我們認為性別也好或者是他的原住民身分或者乃至於有可能新住民的身分等等我們認為在裡面應該的因素應該不會很大所以我們想要當然單純化也避免延伸其他的不必要的困難所以可不可以這個地方能不能不要訂定另外剛剛范委員有提到是說那個申訴制度是不是要中央主管就要去訂"},{"start":3181.892,"end":3207.043,"text":"那這個地方我要跟各位報告我們現在對於受僱的勞資雙方我們都沒有在任何的法律局強制規定公司一定要有一套非常設計非常一致性的申訴制度跟處理的模式因為每一家企業大大小小不太一樣然後他們對於內部員工的申訴疏遠然後有乃至於懲戒的獎懲等等有各有不同的設計的方式跟邏輯"},{"start":3208.203,"end":3227.285,"text":"那我們對於受雇的狀況之下我們都不太有這樣一個明文的規範那這次外送員是因為很特殊我們有創了一個比較特殊的一個設計那我們讓平台要負擔這麼大的一個有關於終止契約上的一個處理的模式"},{"start":3228.005,"end":3245.024,"text":"那我們就讓他們由雙方去用這個模式自主去處理我們就不認為我們還要需要介入他的申訴處理的相關的內容怎麼處理的方法那以上簡單的報告好 請陳昭之委員發言再請范雲委員"},{"start":3246.734,"end":3267.127,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛就是市長的說明我理解但是目前的外送平台他的申訴都是所謂的罐頭式的回覆制式的這個回覆所以他沒有一個實質的這個解決的一個成效那你剛剛也提到一些小企業等等但是那我想請教這個勞動部你們怎麼對於就是說"},{"start":3268.24,"end":3291.206,"text":"由平台他自己來定定然後他又是制式的回答那這個過去我們已經看到弊病或是有不足之處那現在我本來我也是我們本黨也是主張要由中央機關第一個一個指引或是一個原則然後由他們去執行就我們覺得這樣是會比較公正而且過去已經看到他的這個不足之處了"},{"start":3294.386,"end":3321.093,"text":"那是不是我也請范雲委員講完和羅天惠委員講完再一併回覆我想那個政府的所有的委員會單一性別三分之一幾乎都已經在那個落實當中那目前很多的法條也都會寫入所以我想因為性別的原住民這個也非常的重要那我也支持但是就是說就入法的部分其實性別的部分入法的比例還蠻高的"},{"start":3322.293,"end":3348.583,"text":"那就是勞動部要不要再考慮一下那另外關於那個申訴的部分就是如果不寫在這裡的話那勞動部是不是可以讓我們知道萬一那個外送員的他到這個委員會當中然後覺得非常的不公平或者是程序上那他是去地方勞工局處理嗎因為又是有勞僱關係的他是不是勞工的這個爭議"},{"start":3350.423,"end":3363.215,"text":"因為就如果不能那樣處理的話那勞動部還是要給我們一個解方譬如說附帶決議你們要怎麼處理或是未來的執法你要處理這樣子我們才能覺得就是不放在這裡是合理的以上好那請羅廷惠委員發言"},{"start":3368.337,"end":3394.569,"text":"我覺得我可以認同就是范雲委員所提到的就是這個性別平權的一個部分我也非常認同我覺得女性有自己的一個很重要的一個關鍵同理心那可能剛好遇到這樣子的一個女性的狀況所發生的一個外送員可能用女性的一個評審委員那他比較能夠有同理心的去審議這個狀況的案件那其實"},{"start":3398.294,"end":3427.143,"text":"我不是原住民那我都能夠感覺到原住民可能也有自己的文化或者是一些狀況我覺得所以在特定的一個原住民的身份如果有這個原住民的代表或許對於這個狀況上可以多加的同理心來做一個分析所以我覺得性別的平權跟這個原住民的代表是有必要性的那另外我想請問就是說我比較"},{"start":3428.458,"end":3456.097,"text":"好奇的是我們現在就是至少有各一人但是這個所謂的外聘專家外部專家是由勞動部來委外嗎還是是由平台的業者自己去聘請外部的專家來擔任這一個審議的委員因為如果是平台自己聘請的話會不會有"},{"start":3457.154,"end":3482.08,"text":"比較熟悉或者是有利於平台的分析喔那這樣子的話是不是就對於外送員會權益受損這是我想請問的那另外第二個要問的問題是說對不起先問這個問題我突然想沒想到先這樣子好那老總部要先回應還是等陳培佑一起好了好不好"},{"start":3483.78,"end":3510.667,"text":"一樣的問題好那陳佩玉委員請發言因為剛剛范雲委員他其實講的是單一性別啦那其實不限得是女性喔所以我想先提示一下是單一性別那當然要不要設或是怎麼設我們就尊重勞動部的說法也想聽聽看那另外關於族群的問題我剛在聽羅廷維委員在講的時候我可以理解而且我也可以想像假設我們在這麼多外送員的樣態當中有因為族群的個案的問題"},{"start":3511.847,"end":3526.143,"text":"我們沒有辦法信任這個獨立的委員會的時候我們到底可以怎麼做那或者是跟性別有關的個案的時候所以有沒有一個可能的機制是假設不要硬加在這個委員會裡頭但是我們遇到不管是因為族群性別"},{"start":3527.444,"end":3542.23,"text":"比較特殊的個案的時候我們在委有相關的專家一併參與會議給一個彈性跟空間但又同時兼顧所有剛剛委員們的擔心但實務上的做法是不是合邀請勞動部回應一下再想一下這樣謝謝好請勞動部回應"},{"start":3546.455,"end":3573.65,"text":"主席各位有關於這個委員會我要跟各位委員報告長期來外送員確實對於因為被中止契約都沒有救濟的路徑然後常常很多的抱怨然後也認為平台都回復都是用罐頭式的回復也根本沒有做調查或者往往都聽消費者片面之詞或商家片面之詞就把它中止契約了所以我們這一次就做一個很大的設計"},{"start":3575.251,"end":3588.406,"text":"其實這個設計我們我剛剛有在跟各位報告就說連企業的受苦勞工我們都沒有強迫企業一定要設計一套這樣的一個委員會然後去做審視然後讓當事人做說明"},{"start":3590.268,"end":3614.185,"text":"因此我們認為這樣的一個設計已經足夠讓我們的外送員在這樣一個機會上可以陳述你的意見而且我們前面有鋪陳說公司要負矩陣的責任就是說到底這個原因是在哪裡你要矩陣出來然後最重要的是說外送員消費那個平台是認為消費者的資訊不能揭露怕有風險"},{"start":3615.786,"end":3644.773,"text":"所以在這個獨立的三人小組裡面呢他們就可以去做一個公開的討論那這裡面有工會代表所以剛剛有委員會認為說這個這裡面的厲害關係人這個沒有厲害關係人的學者專家會不會有一些聽從那個平台的可能性那因為有工會代表在裡面所以我認為倒不會有不至於說裡面的好像連同在一起因為工會代表他很容易可以監督得了這個平台的運作"},{"start":3645.413,"end":3672.951,"text":"所以我們的建議的方式還是讓他這樣子運作下去會比較好我們不要過度的介入那有關於這個各位有提到那個單一性別跟原住民那我們如果未來在說明欄補充一下就是如果涉及到特殊的一些對象是不是在邀請了學者專家裡面去考量這樣的一個特殊的對象"},{"start":3674.374,"end":3682.774,"text":"來做聆聘的委員參與我會比較好一個彈性在說明欄寫那我們就不用特別在裡面訂有關性別跟"},{"start":3685.302,"end":3703.675,"text":"想要跟委員說明因為這個這個所謂的處理小組其實的確是在基於目前的這個情況目前外送員一直在抱怨的狀況下那我們把他設定主要是在中止契約的部分因為中止契約的事項是比較大"},{"start":3704.535,"end":3728.237,"text":"那可是我们认为他其实最核心的概念是让外送员有地方可以面对面的把自己的情境跟处境给讲出来然后有一些不是不只是平台自己而是有外部的人来一起综合的来判断我想这是一个最核心的目的但是我在想说不管是刚才讲到说原住民也好性别也好我们有没有可能因为他真的这个因为这不是一个政府的委员会"},{"start":3729.017,"end":3755.385,"text":"我想要說明的時候是說這不是一個政府的委員會只是我們希望透過平台透過這個方式來去處理相關的申訴或者是假設有覺得不是很適當的這個停這不是停權這是終止契約的處理的時候有一個外部機制來去處理這個問題所以我們沒有想要把它去設計的有點像是一個政府內部委員如果今天是一個政府內部委員會當然就一定要"},{"start":3755.925,"end":3783.434,"text":"多少比例的性别多少的就有一套我们的规定可是他不是一个政府内部的委员会的时候我们就觉得这部分我们的强制性跟规管就不用到他的这个比例一定要抓到这么严格可是我们在立法说明上面可以请就是说这个处理小组的处理应该要注意到有哪些哪些专业然后什么我们可不可以用这种方式不一定是说他一定是要有一个原住民的代表后面就可能要有新住民的代表要有"},{"start":3784.394,"end":3813.099,"text":"這個就就變得很對謝謝好那先請羅天惟委員發言然後陳昭志委員發言好謝謝佩玉委員的提醒是單一性別這個都可以認同但是我剛剛聽完勞動部的說明以後當然我們沒有說一定要入法但是我還是要提醒就是說只是立法說明的話並沒有強制立那到時候如果演變出一些問題或者是就只是說明我沒有一定要做"},{"start":3813.686,"end":3841.962,"text":"那会不会造成权益上的受损这个我们应该要考量那第二个就是说我刚想到我的问题就是说我们在这一次像比如说好劳动部刚刚提供的这个条文的修正建议我们看到他上面第三款他写说外送员与合作商家与消费者就外送服务所发生的争议他是一个申诉机制他是一个契约解约的一个机制那我想问一下就说那今天如果是"},{"start":3843.066,"end":3871.518,"text":"他不是跟外送員的我是我不是消費者我是那個合作商家我是店家那我也不一定是跟外送員發生的爭議我是跟平台因為我們也有看過商家遇到被平台剝削他的剝削不是抽成喔是他要求他一起來辦一個打折扣的活動結果他跟他講說你折扣完大概會賺到30塊結果他折扣完"},{"start":3872.225,"end":3891.556,"text":"變成只剩下五塊甚至是要倒賠五塊那然後導致他虧損一萬兩萬的時候那這個申訴機制度可不可以也納入在這裡面一起來做一個幫他們來發生的一個管道這個是我要幫所謂的不只是外送員對"},{"start":3893.604,"end":3919.077,"text":"商家還有商家被平台的問題還有消費者被平台的問題是不是都能夠納入到這一個申訴機制一起來試用這是我關切的那最後我要提醒的就是說剛剛勞動部有回應就是我是三人但至少籌組三個人嘛對不對那不得低於三人那其中一個是工會"},{"start":3920.56,"end":3945.567,"text":"另外一個是平台最後一個關鍵的人叫做外部委員這個外部委員又是平台去聘請的人那就是兩票對一票啊今天工會的人在這裡面一起參與了他反應了明明就不公平明明就漠視這些證據的時候很抱歉這個申訴的制度最後兩票就是一票"},{"start":3946.775,"end":3975.204,"text":"所以工會真正的聲音就被漠視了然後這裡的判決就出來了那還是一樣工會只能眼睜睜的看著這件事情發生但是卻無法改變所以我還是很擔憂就是說外部委員我們一定會尊重但是外部委員由平台來聘請的時候他會不會找一個跟自己比較match比較match的這個外部專家不要說不可能"},{"start":3976.209,"end":3989.684,"text":"我們大家都知道我也不希望未來的工會變成在裡面眼睜睜的看著這個機制就變成永遠都是2比1所以我要提醒好那請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":3991.445,"end":4016.599,"text":"我先就原來部分因為剛剛羅廷文提到的當然也是要再重新再討論因為這個剛剛涉及到外部專家說不可能當然有時候是國家來建議好像也大家也覺得有問題然後如果由外送平台或公會這邊來做好像也有問題那另外有一個比較折衷的方法是因為這個你所謂定義的這個具備勞動法律專業或熟悉外送平台"},{"start":4017.119,"end":4046.38,"text":"然后又有意愿又愿意来参与这样的做法其实你们就可以在有一个资料库这个其实过去在性别上课的时候到各个医院等等去上课你们可以有这个人才资料库那他的背景是非常清楚的他就是背景就当你他们可以从这边来邀请当他包括所谓的这个特殊的原住民的部分那单一性别如果有涉及单一性别的这个问题是从那一个地方性平的专家又熟悉又愿意"},{"start":4047.58,"end":4075.031,"text":"來參與的那個資料庫是非常重要不過剛剛羅廷偉提到那個商家的部分這倒是要再考慮一下因為商家有可能是要申訴者那這個部分如何顧及因為我們一直強調四個方向但消費者有基本的消費者保護法那這個商家平台跟這個外送員大家商家有沒有申訴的機制這個我也同意說稍微在這個地方考慮一下還是說另外一個法條來考慮謝謝"},{"start":4077.728,"end":4106.297,"text":"好謝謝然後請王玉明委員發言等一下請勞動部行政單位回應剛剛那個羅廷偉委員提到的就是現在新的修正版本把外送平台業者其實放進來然後因為委員會是他組成外部專家學者也是他找那會不會最後變成是2比1這樣一個問題我覺得的確要慎重考慮因為在原來的版本裡面其實只有提到工會代表至少一人"},{"start":4107.477,"end":4126.771,"text":"那代表其他的其實就是外部專家學者那這樣子相對他的客觀性還會高一點但是今天如果這樣的一個修正動力版本把平台業者直接就納進來了然後學者也是他找的確實務上的運作你不能去排除他就會實質的2比1"},{"start":4129.353,"end":4144.424,"text":"如果萬一每一次的申訴都是2比1然後都被駁回我想也失去了這樣的一個申訴你前面還在載明說希望它是一個獨立的處理小組獨立處理小組如果又是平台業者所成立"},{"start":4145.285,"end":4173.913,"text":"那我覺得應該要回過頭來解釋外送平台業者如果只有三位他是需不需要一位在裡面因為基本上是他也想要顯示他的這個獨立性來處理這樣的爭議那基本上他應該是越獨立性越高越好越能處理爭議如果自己還放了一個平台業者在裡面我覺得任何的結果恐怕會變成說即使他做出來的是看起來相對合理的但是可能都會被質疑說"},{"start":4174.933,"end":4200.666,"text":"你的人員不公平因為有你的人在裡面所以這樣是不是反而會是更爭議如果這樣子我會建議是不是回到原來的版本就是讓公會代表有一人就好那這樣子就解決那也讓平台去展現他的誠意你盡可能去找比較客觀的兩位學者進來那那個結論我覺得反而比較容易被接受以上建議謝謝請行政部門回應以上問題我們先"},{"start":4207.965,"end":4227.871,"text":"第一個是剛才先回答陳昭志委員的問題就是說我自己我自己認為不用不用成立人才資料庫了那為什麼其他的會需要成立人才資料庫一個很大的原因比方說在霸凌的市場霸凌處理是因為需要職場霸凌來協助調查的這個需求量非常大"},{"start":4229.008,"end":4251.787,"text":"因为很多的公司都需要所以我们才需要成立人才资料库可是在这个外送的问题上面我认为业者其实就少数几家所以应该不用弄我们要弄一个几十人几百人的人才资料库来否这个很少数的外送平台业我倒觉得不一定需要可是在职场霸凌的这个"},{"start":4253.368,"end":4273.388,"text":"里面其实大家也会对说那是不是这个裁判都是你们找的这都是公司找的所以当时其实也是有一个就说要把与无利害关系这个事情给入法所以这次的配套里面其实在我们把虽然放入一个平台业者但是在大家在第二款可以看到其实也是把"},{"start":4273.948,"end":4291.625,"text":"无利害关系与外送平台无利害关系的外部专家学者来担任把这个事情给放进去这样子所以我想要大致来说的事情是说第一个当然这种外部员就是我的意思说比方说即便是职场霸凌其实他也会有公司来找"},{"start":4293.243,"end":4322.06,"text":"那也有当初大家想的问题如果都是公司来找那就是偏向有利于公司有利于主管的部分所以当时的这个惯常我们的设计就是要有无利害关系用无利害关系这个事情来去处理这个他要找的人选的状况那所以我想说是不是用这两个方式来去处理可是我至少我同意说刚刚前面在第一款的部分我们把至少拿掉因为我也不希望变成好像说公司代表三人"},{"start":4323.101,"end":4341.7,"text":"结果工会只有一人这不公平这也不合理为什么想要放入工会代表我想再说明一次为什么想放入工会代表跟公司代表一个原因是因为工会代表才比较能够去描述外送员他面对到在外送情境的真实处境"},{"start":4343.702,"end":4366.959,"text":"因為如果沒有工會代表的話他無法反映這件事情這是我們原本在想的可是的確也會有一些需要反映平台經營狀態的處境這兩件事情都在討論裡面該在這個小組裡面被呈現主要考慮是這件事情所以才會覺得不管是外送員的情境或平台的經營的狀況跟處境也應該都同時在小組裡面呈現"},{"start":4369.24,"end":4383.745,"text":"那個部長我覺得有點不一樣因為你那個人願就是說公會代表他代表某一個公會組織就是外送員他理解整個狀況他可以是一個代表組織的一個專家學者的意願"},{"start":4384.765,"end":4414.048,"text":"那外送平台業者他自己其實就是當事人你講的如果說在一個小組裡面要去陳述相關的背景他可以列席但他不應該是當然的成員你懂我意思嗎就是說工會代表然後你兩個比較客觀的學者我覺得這樣的一個team是比較有說服力的那平台業者你應該因為他本身就是已經是被申訴的對象你怎麼會是進來當小組成員呢我們過去在各委員會不會有這樣的情況但是你說要補充說明的"},{"start":4414.528,"end":4431.587,"text":"你可以小組成員要求你可以列行就是說你列行你說明那個整個運作的情況我覺得既然我們這次要做我覺得啦做得更客觀更公正更能減少爭議你今天把它改成外送平台業者直接就進來"},{"start":4432.748,"end":4461.423,"text":"他的確可以主導我覺得反而是添亂你就直接回到你原來的版本你就是讓工會代表一人因為他其實也是某種團體代表專家學者的性質然後再兩個客觀的專家學者那真的需要平台業者說明他就練習就好但他不要變成是這一個小組的成員我覺得這樣會是最順利的也比較有客觀性大家會幸福啦"},{"start":4461.994,"end":4491.669,"text":"這樣好不好我們可不可以這條先保留這條先保留好 洛天文委員先好 那個我還是要再提醒就是我剛已經講了就是說我是消費者我跟平台有糾紛還有我是合作廠商我跟平台有糾紛結果在這一個申訴的這個委員裡面呢平台自己就派人那他就是最直接的利益相關者所以所以我覺得這個部分上說你有自己派一個人"},{"start":4493.049,"end":4521.274,"text":"結果他只有工會外送員不能夠自己到場說明有工會可是平台自己有問題的時候平台可以自己現場就說明那這就是有一點點我覺得不太公平的地方所以這個我不太認同就是外送平台可以派一人這件事情那第二個就是說剛剛勞動部有提到且與外送平台業者間無利害關係的外部專家"},{"start":4523.84,"end":4549.486,"text":"你隨便你就跟他是麻吉了可是你們私底下當然不會有什麼厲害利益關係啊只是就是因為麻吉啊麻吉有需要厲害嗎不一定吧就是我們兩個比較Match啊你懂我的困境你都只懂我的困境你都只懂平台業者的困境的時候你也一定有可能是無利害關係啊我就會請這種人啊比如說我就專門請這個"},{"start":4553.739,"end":4580.258,"text":"資料AIAP的專家來當我的外部學者可是我都不請假設我都不請比較勞工勞犬的學者他也沒有在我的平台有任何投資啊或者是跟我有什麼利害關係啊可是我就喜歡請他你就拿我沒轍因為這邊訂的無利害關係我覺得太模糊了所以並不能夠保障到整個在運作的過程以上"},{"start":4584.278,"end":4590.655,"text":"先請相關的行政單位說明剛剛委員提出有關於商家申訴的部分"},{"start":4596.315,"end":4624.566,"text":"謝謝主席 經濟部回應就是謝謝羅廷遠跟陳昭智委員剛剛提醒 有關於合作商家平台的爭議 這個我們後續有放在不版的第14條 針對合作我們有放在那個 到時候會放在契約範本裡面 會有一個機制的的歷史 以上說明 謝謝14條不版"},{"start":4627.014,"end":4635.614,"text":"布板就是劉建國委員等16人的那一板那是布板OK"},{"start":4637.426,"end":4658.359,"text":"那有關消費者的部分將不說明那消費者的一個權益的外送平台以消費者權益的部分是放在這個劉建國委員16人版的第13條裡面這邊就有一個規定那我們後續會在這個定型化契約應記載不記載事項裡面去明定有關於消費爭議的一個處理"},{"start":4663.578,"end":4667.809,"text":"好那好那現在請陳昭智委員發言"},{"start":4669.189,"end":4697.054,"text":"我在就利害关系因为部长强调有利害关系的要排除但是那个利害关系大家也想说利害关系这么清楚那我个人长期在建因为那时候新药的引进大家都非常关注关系每一个哪一群病人可以得到这样的一个健保的这个给付我当时就一直主张但是后来也没有这样做就是说利害关系就是说如果他不是一个机密的会议那当事人你邀请的当事人是要名字公开的"},{"start":4697.634,"end":4712.037,"text":"就是說讓 那這個公開的意思表示你可以挑戰他譬如陳潮之在健保裡面然後我在說這個信仰可是如果有人說你怎麼可以審這個信仰這個現在你明明跟他們怎麼有密切往來等等就是說他是可以被挑戰的被挑戰 然後就是說"},{"start":4713.038,"end":4727.498,"text":"就是只要有這個機制有一點是透明化的機制的情況下是某個程度就可以比較能夠去避免那當然要挑戰就要有一個比較具體的說法這是因為這個利害關係其實很難界定利害關係很難界定 謝謝"},{"start":4730.24,"end":4749.959,"text":"好請陳培育委員發言因為剛剛部長有建議說這條就保留是不是我們就保留那不過因為剛剛委員們提出這麼多送出委員就是保留之後到黨團協商還是要討論很多我就先提出另外一個建議也請勞動部一併思考就是這個申訴機制完之後假設有人要求"},{"start":4750.96,"end":4775.452,"text":"進一步成立再申訴機制那有沒有想法或可能現在不用回答我們待會去想一想就好了我就先提出提醒謝謝好那因為這是第一次討論所以保留的話等一下還有第二次討論那這個這一條我們就先保留那有關於合作商家跟平台的申訴以及消費者跟平台申訴這個兩個的爭議等一下13條14條會討論到"},{"start":4779.861,"end":4806.594,"text":"那個主席我有個動議就是因為昨天我們討論那個第5條的時候其實是非常關鍵的嘛那勞動部也說他們回去之後會有一個新的版本就是保證這個基本薪資這個終點1.25倍然後加1嘛那那個草案我不知道是不是已經好了如果好了我覺得這個是非常關鍵的條文是不是可以而且現在在座的委員也蠻多我們是不是第5條"},{"start":4807.614,"end":4830.849,"text":"可以回來這一個非常關鍵的條文我們先把它討論好不好就是運費的請問第5條版本好了嗎是不是可以先發下去可不可以先給我們看"},{"start":4831.383,"end":4860.658,"text":"先給委員看先發下來給大家因為我覺得這條蠻關鍵上午出席的委員比較多的時候是不是應該要先討論我原本覺得繼續走下去但聽完他講我很好奇第5條所以我也很想來還是我們先這個先休息10分鐘然後然後這個這個先發下去對先休息10分鐘好不好20分鐘好了好不好20分鐘"},{"start":4864.867,"end":4868.856,"text":"先發先發版本下來一起"},{"start":6420.714,"end":6445.512,"text":"好好現在繼續開會那剛剛有委員提議啊我們就回來討論昨天這整部專法的第5條那因為這個勞動部已經把他們修正的版本發下來那我們先請勞動部說明"},{"start":6450.489,"end":6477.786,"text":"好那个贵委员那延续昨天的讨论我想要再做一点补充跟把脉络给讲清楚了那原本在刘建国委员版本也就是部的预告的版本当部预告版本里面其实当时的第5条里面有两件事情第一件事情是第一项是跟交通部的基本运价的审议"},{"start":6479.287,"end":6500.535,"text":"來連動也就是要外送員的報酬不低於交通部的基本運價的那條線那我們在預告的過程裡面的確有收到幾方的意見不管是來自外送員方或者是來自平台方都有提到一件事情我想跟各位做一個說明"},{"start":6501.277,"end":6528.682,"text":"因為這一個交通部的基本運價的審議他主要的目的是要去限制交通事業單位不能夠無上限的跟消費者來收費所以他其實一直以來他是一個上限的概念就是比方說某個客運業者或某個高鐵或者什麼他不能無上限的自己想怎麼收就怎麼收所以他必須要定一個上限"},{"start":6529.778,"end":6555.111,"text":"所以我们的确原本的在法条里面的写法是外送人的报酬不能低于这条线的时候通常交通事业会把这条线定的比较高但是实际上面的收费不一定那么高好这是实际的状况是这样可是我们原本的写法我们也也做了一些检讨原本的写法说外送人的报酬不能低于这条线的时候"},{"start":6556.295,"end":6580.885,"text":"当这条线定的高的时候那外送员的报酬就会跟着拉高很多那外送员的报酬拉高很多的时候可能就会让平台的支出跟成本也会提高很多那因此当平台的成本也提高的时候可能他就会要跟消费者来多收更多的费用所以这条线他会有一种定毛式的引领的效果吧"},{"start":6582.681,"end":6606.62,"text":"一面如果把外送员的报酬给拉起来另外一方面也会把消费者的支出给拉起来那在这个情况之下我们的确觉得这事情是需要再思量这是在我们预告的期间里面各方都有给我们这样的意见不管是外送员端或者是平台端都有给我们这样的意见那这条线如果定的低那就变成外送员的报酬就相对会被压低所以定的高也"},{"start":6607.15,"end":6621.065,"text":"会尴尬定的低也会尴尬所以我们在思考说那是否还要有这一这一个部分来跟交通部的基本运驾来联动那如果不要的话那势必要找一个替代方案"},{"start":6622.786,"end":6638.859,"text":"那替代方案的意思我还是要重申不是要把原本的1.25倍的最低工资给拿掉1.25倍的最低工资这个以时间来算的部分它还是存在的我们也会继续保留只是交通部这部分要用什么东西来替代"},{"start":6639.58,"end":6667.285,"text":"那所以我们考量一个状况是1.25倍的最低工资其实它比较能够去保障到的是需要比较花时间的长单那短单的部分假如以外送的情况来说可能会有很多6分钟7分钟8分钟都有的可是如果6分钟7分钟8分钟都用这个1.25倍也就是每分钟4.1块的话那它的保障可能就会不足"},{"start":6668.59,"end":6695.089,"text":"所以我们应该要在替代方案上面比较是针对短单的情况尤其是都市里面会有比较多的短单的情况来做一个保障的策略这也是为什么我们后来觉得可能还是来做一个更简单的保底的做法更简单的保底的做法来处理短单的保障那我们综合各种因素我们现在我们选择的保底的做法是45块"},{"start":6696.67,"end":6711.312,"text":"那但是这45块未来也会跟着最低工资如果提升的话这45块也会跟着联动提高按最低工资提高的比例来提高我想这是我们现在认为在报酬这一条的双重的"},{"start":6712.753,"end":6731.589,"text":"一個是1.25倍的最低工資用時間來算另外一個是保底的45塊然後未來會跟著最低工資聯動的這個情況這是我們經過昨天晚上的討論跟委員也在昨天大家委員們討論的脈絡裡面我們提出來的一個替代的方案的做法謝謝請這個羅廷偉委員先發言"},{"start":6738.968,"end":6762.479,"text":"好謝謝勞動部今天提出了條文修正建議其實講白昨天我們結束討論以後晚上的私訊留言其實蠻多的大家都很關注在這個部分那現在在討論到這個保底的部分新台幣45元我覺得這都可以開放性討論都沒有關係但是我還是要再提醒剛剛有提到剛剛"},{"start":6763.419,"end":6791.806,"text":"劳动部有提到第一个就是说随着这个最低工资会去做一个调整每年度的一个部分去做一个检讨但是我希望说在文字上能够再增加一些我举例来说请大家听听看我们现在就是外送平台几户外送员每笔订单之基本报酬逗点我觉得说要再增加一句话就是应包含机车行车的成本"},{"start":6793.027,"end":6809.728,"text":"我們的這個狀況不只是現行我們遇到的最低薪資逐年會調整的一個問題還有有可能油價也會隨著調整所以我希望有一個機制去探討所以後面也希望能夠增加文字是前向"},{"start":6811.285,"end":6837.361,"text":"機車行車成本應由交通主管機關委由專業單位調查訂定之並定期的更新所以我希望說用這樣子的方式也能夠保障說現行制度上45元是可以討論的但是未來如果隨著突然油價大幅度的增長的時候這個部分是不是能夠也能夠保障他們的一個權益合理性的一個做被評估去審議以上"},{"start":6839.636,"end":6848.873,"text":"好 那是不是先請勞動部長解釋完之後請楊耀委員發言好 剛才羅委員其實講的部分其實已經放入考慮了"},{"start":6851.144,"end":6874.298,"text":"羅遠剛才講的包括他的行車的成本包括油耗包括機車的耗損折舊維修其實在說明欄裡面我們已經加為什麼現在是1.25不是1這個0.25就是來自於這些機車也就是他的運具使用的軟硬體的成本其實我們就已經把它寫進去了所以我自己是覺得應該不用再"},{"start":6875.299,"end":6892.24,"text":"在本文裡面再提到這個事情如果沒有考慮進去的話不會是1.25就會只是一倍而已對那我可以再追問一下就是所以你說你現在提到的前項每筆訂單基本報酬之保障金額"},{"start":6894.238,"end":6920.416,"text":"由中央主管機關1000年度保障金額你這個保障金額是有包含這個機車的費用1.25倍意思是這樣子嗎就是已經涵蓋了1.25倍所以你未來的調整不是最低工資的調整是用乘以1.25倍之後你們就是像你現在推算出來的45元嘛就是說乘以1.25倍之後的每分鐘多少的中間值大概是類似這樣的概念對不對"},{"start":6921.769,"end":6948.99,"text":"這個要講得很清楚要不然的確剛剛羅委員提的是有道理的就是說其他的浮動可能你沒有計算你如果只採最低工資就不會看到他的工具的那一些付出所以還是要回到1.25倍那樣的精神去做浮動的調整就是如果最低工資比方說明年是現在是196元假如假如後年假設是205元的話基本上就是205乘上1.25"},{"start":6952.472,"end":6977.081,"text":"對就是205乘上1.25對所以他會跟著最低工資而浮動來調整對那對那不只是這個包括45都會跟著調不好意思那我想請教一下不好意思先請可能要先請楊耀委員發言我這邊想要請請請教一下就是"},{"start":6979.211,"end":6998.226,"text":"我們把不得低於新台幣45元的保障金額直接入法那以後假如基本剛剛有說假如基本工資有調帳要調嗎那要調是不是要一直修法不用嗎"},{"start":7007.13,"end":7019.838,"text":"我們就按照那個比例的調整就是假設明年的這個每小時最低工資調3%假設那我們這個45塊就會往上加用3%的往上加上去"},{"start":7020.918,"end":7035.074,"text":"比较不用每次修法也是说1.25我们也会随着最低工资往上走第二个呢也会随着调整那为什么要个公告主要的原因是怕有小触点有时候太复杂所以我们会来做一个公告好谢谢还有委员有有意见吗"},{"start":7046.176,"end":7055.49,"text":"對請范園委員發言有嗎有第二項的最後兩四個字依照最低工資的調升比例公告調整對"},{"start":7057.589,"end":7080.37,"text":"我覺得這個第五條的部分非常的重要從昨天到今天其實討論都有一些進展但是因為我們才這樣的討論時間就有進展跟變動今天出現這個不低於新台幣45元的保障金額我的立場是說能夠保障更多我當然就會更支持可是我就會有一點點憂心就是說這45元的數字"},{"start":7081.451,"end":7104.59,"text":"是不是因為訂了之後以後就很難改要很多年所以是不是我們第5條再保留一下能夠有更多的討論呢是浮動喔對啊後面浮動後面有說他會調整公告之那我只是想說我們是不是保留一下有更多的討論那個部長覺得還是覺得這樣子就大家就OK了"},{"start":7107.067,"end":7131.26,"text":"應該是說這個是我們現在因為昨天委員會昨天委員會的審議裡面請我們如果要把跟交通部的運價給拿掉的話要提出一個替代的方案嗎那我們今天早上把這個替代的方案提出那至於委員會要如何討論這一條要不要做更多討論這部分我們當然尊重委員會這樣子對"},{"start":7134.484,"end":7162.904,"text":"請林月琴委員發言然後請羅廷偉委員發言我覺得今天這樣調整過後的確也比較如我們期待的是說因為第一個本來運價就不是為了我們外送員的薪酬脫鉤的確就會相對是好而且有一個保底的作用那只是因為我剛剛前面在樓下在跟身心障礙的朋友在談事情我想剛剛不知道有沒有解釋這45塊的保底的來源"},{"start":7164.335,"end":7176.72,"text":"是怎麼算出來的其他的那我就覺得說因為對外送員的保障有嘛因為如果短單的話我還是基本上可以拿到45塊可是長單的話我又可以1.25的每一分鐘4.1塊就會滿足到"},{"start":7179.901,"end":7199.991,"text":"短單跟長單只是我比較想說針對那45塊如果事實上是也是合理的話那我認為應該可以考慮這個版本因為我們昨天就說1.25只要有一個能夠確定事實上是短單可以被解決的話那也是最理想的方式的話那我就覺得應該用這個版本來通過"},{"start":7201.798,"end":7229.8,"text":"是不是可以講那請後衛司長解釋謝謝委員因為我們當初在設計這個保底最主要就是考慮剛剛委員所提到的短單其實在渡費區很多那如果我們看一下他們大概就是10分鐘到15分鐘單站的比例很高那我們就在思考是說大概在10分鐘11分鐘以內的他基本上他還是要出勤比如說他一段的時間那我們希望讓他不然的話他如果7分鐘只剩下30幾塊"},{"start":7231.882,"end":7251.717,"text":"確實太低了所以我們讓他有個保底所以我們就鎖定大概11分鐘左右然後44塊我們就保護他然後11分鐘以上的都沒有問題了就用4塊1跑多少跑越遠你當然就拿得越多那個長單有的保護然後短單呢也能夠有個保底都會去跟比較偏遠的地方兩個都能夠兼顧"},{"start":7255.704,"end":7268.844,"text":"好請羅廷偉委員發言不好意思因為這個是重中之重啦所以我問的比較細一點也希望能夠更直白一點就是說所以現在如果我是外送員我跑短單只有5分鐘"},{"start":7270.818,"end":7288.422,"text":"5分鐘從前面我們剛說的1分鐘4.1嘛那現在就變成因為且不得低於新台幣45元所以我跑5分鐘也會有45元的保障對嗎好這個是其一5分鐘也有45元那我想問勞動部為什麼覺得是45為什麼不覺得是48"},{"start":7292.858,"end":7305.287,"text":"變成45會不會造成漲價這個我也要關心啊消費者的權益嘛45會不會有漲價的問題那為什麼你們評估是45為什麼不是48為什麼不是50這部分可不可以再跟我們分享一下謝謝"},{"start":7308.634,"end":7327.723,"text":"請楊耀委員發言好 我有一邊問就是說這45元當然剛剛市長有說大概就是11分鐘左右那羅廷偉委員的疑問我也有就是說為什麼是11分鐘為什麼不是15分鐘 這個第一個"},{"start":7332.885,"end":7347.491,"text":"第二個就是其實我當然知道外送員很辛苦可是我還是要強調一下就是我們在專法裡面"},{"start":7350.752,"end":7369.159,"text":"直接提高特定行業的基本工資的算法保障它那會不會引發後續的連鎖效應這個我覺得我們必須要不能說我們現在討論外送員的問題那解決外送員的問題漲價了以後"},{"start":7372.885,"end":7389.888,"text":"會不會反而讓外送員的接單數降低反而造成他的生活收入會有很大的影響這個我覺得應該還是要做一下說明好 請行政單位說明"},{"start":7391.407,"end":7415.398,"text":"我們分兩部分我先講前半部分然後我們的確這裡面要一直去衡量一個問題那個問題是如果今天很多的外送員他的確是用低於最低工資的角度低於最低工資的水平在接單甚至他會面臨"},{"start":7417.082,"end":7446.12,"text":"不斷的被平台單方面在砍價的這樣子的情境這是不是從我們一個行政單位或法治單位大家覺得應該的狀況我們不斷的在要問自己這個問題也許單很多但是價格最低工資以下那我今天從勞動部的角度來說我們都希望"},{"start":7453.893,"end":7474.967,"text":"勞動我們都希望今天一個勞動者一個工作者他在工作上面付出來的報酬的效益至少是有一個最低工資的概念在那邊撐著底這是我們從一個勞動的主管機關需要出發點的考慮"},{"start":7478.277,"end":7494.355,"text":"在这个出发点下我也跟杨委员在说明为什么当时定1.25的原因是因为外送员的工作的形态他付出的成本跟一般我们去超商的打工不太一样超商打工他不用自己负担"},{"start":7495.236,"end":7522.655,"text":"很长时间的油资或者是那些机车耗损的成本但外送人需要所以确实在很多国际上面的法律里面会把要他要负担这个机车耗损油资维修等等等视为他自己要付出的成本要把它给算进来所以这是为什么从一倍的最低工资拉到1.25倍的原因这个0.25是来自于这个可是他的整个概念还是连接在一个最低工资的概念"},{"start":7524.556,"end":7532.799,"text":"這是還是想跟楊耀文來說明那45塊的部分我請市長這邊來說明因為這確實是跟現在的業界的樣態我們是考慮現階業界的樣態"},{"start":7539.08,"end":7561.658,"text":"主席跟各位委員說明我們當時在設計四五開其實我們也在考慮到目前他們食物上起跳的現在的價格差不多就是40到50之間有時候都會跟鄉村不太一樣它有不同的設計或者下雨天等等不太一樣所以我們就思考說我們盡可能找出一個大家的中間值避免平台或消費者受到很大的衝擊"},{"start":7562.779,"end":7569.109,"text":"第二個剛剛委員有提到是說5分鐘6分鐘我們理解可是我們算了一下45塊你要賺到245也要跑將近6單"},{"start":7572.921,"end":7592.359,"text":"那雖然是5分鐘可是對外送員來講他要騎要停車要走進去要拿再起來再到另外一個地方再送其實一個小時跑了5點多單到6單頂多也才拿到25就算他每一個單就5到6分鐘而已其實對他來講也都是一個非常大的"},{"start":7594.341,"end":7613.473,"text":"付出啦對對對一個付出所以我們用45塊我們也不會說一下超出25最主要他跟25之間要有一個連動不能說一個特別的低或一個那就沒有失去了保底的一個目的那一個特別高那就不太合理所以對我們來講我們考量到現在的40到50之間取個中間值第二個11分鐘以內的我們認為讓他保個底"},{"start":7619.316,"end":7647.902,"text":"用這個方式去雙重去保護他然後透過我們公告調整每年的那個最低工資的方式讓他每一年都可以來調整所以我們用這個方式來保護好 請楊耀委員發言然後再請王鴻威委員發言再請王育民委員發言部長剛剛的回應市長講的我大概了解了那部長剛剛講的能不能我用另外一種方式來講"},{"start":7649.147,"end":7670.443,"text":"就是說外送員呢他除了是一般的勞工以外他從某個角度來看他其實有一點點自營商的味道在裡面因為他必須要負擔自己負擔車輛 油費 對不對所以把它提高我做這樣子理解"},{"start":7672.704,"end":7695.825,"text":"是沒問題的嗎那假如這樣子的話適度的提高我覺得應該大眾是可以接受的好 請部長補充我也做過委員我其實也知道各位現在在思考的點"},{"start":7697.699,"end":7720.917,"text":"说实话整个外送平台的经营的行为里面平台的业者他有很多各种大大小小的因素跟变数他要去做任何的价格上面价格我说价格不管是对外送员的薪资或者是对商家对消费者他有各种变动的原因跟理由我说实话我今天从一个政府角度他不是国营事业"},{"start":7723.168,"end":7749.301,"text":"他不是國營事業他有各種他會變動的原因今天下雨今天什麼各種原因都都存在所以價格的問題一直是裡面相對困難的問題所以我們只能在思考這件事盡量回到一個初衷在處理這個事情的初衷這初衷的概念就是我們認為這樣子一個外送的工作者"},{"start":7750.882,"end":7761.237,"text":"他希望有弹性我们该给他因为他的确外送也期待一定的弹性可是在一定弹性上还是希望有一些最低的保障好那问题是这个最低保障的逻辑该是什么"},{"start":7763.018,"end":7789.68,"text":"一个是最低的保障要有这是我们昨天我们在讲到说两个概念一个是最低保障第二个是希望他的收入是可被验算可预期的而不是好像充盲盒在品运器的这两个是最核心的概念我们是在这两个核心的概念思考该怎么在处理这个问题没有错我们都不希望我尽量把外送员的薪酬给拉高的时候也许会真的都会造成平台的成本的增加"},{"start":7791.004,"end":7816.714,"text":"就經濟學來看我們沒有辦法否定這件事情但是怎樣是一個合理的最低保障的拉高這個最低保障它的正當性跟利潤基礎在什麼地方這是我們不斷不斷在要問自己的點那我們覺得這裡面一個很重要的事情就是最低工資的概念所以我們讓他要跟最低工資連動我覺得這是"},{"start":7818.328,"end":7839.483,"text":"我们在定这个报酬的保障一个很重要的理由会是在这个概念所以我们也没有去我们都希望保障外送人的报酬可是我们也没有采取能高尽量高或者是委员如果有提案也可以提出来大家可以讨论不同的提案不同的方案之间他的思考点跟利润基础是什么"},{"start":7840.043,"end":7863.598,"text":"那我今天作為一個行政部門當然我們還是必須負責任提出我們至少看法也許不一定是100分不一定是最完美的但我們在綜合思考以後我們的看法是什麼我還是必須拿出來然後跟大家說明那如果有更好的提案有更好的提案思考的更周全的提案我們也樂意跟大家一起討論我們的態度是這樣子對"},{"start":7867.366,"end":7888.049,"text":"好請問還有這個請王宏威委員發言然後接下來請王玉明委員好謝謝委員喔其實我同意啦其實我們今天這個條文最主要的是給外送員的一個基本的保障它是一個它不是天花板它就是一個地板價格那"},{"start":7889.751,"end":7903.724,"text":"能不能盡如人意喔一定不會剛才比如說也許某一些縣市他可以同意好願意不要符合他的需求有些縣市都不一定覺得說這個可能是他的成本更高"},{"start":7904.504,"end":7932.966,"text":"即便比如說我們以新北市來說也許你在中和永和跟板橋跑的狀況跟你跑到這個三芝、泰山、五谷、淡水那又不一樣了但是我們又不可能是基於不同的縣市或不同的地區給它一個很大的range所以我可以理解就是說我也同意我們這個就是像基本工資一樣是給它一個基本的保障"},{"start":7933.746,"end":7952.111,"text":"但是我們又不希望它有一個定毛的作用那個定毛作用就是說可能對外送員來講就是說你反而把我設定在這樣的一個價格上面所以接下來這個是我們大家都碰到兩難的地方"},{"start":7952.971,"end":7973.769,"text":"对于劳动部来讲劳动部来说其实劳动部最重要最主要的目标就是来保障劳工的权益可是确实我们今天在我们的会议室里面我们每个人脑子里所想的可能就不单纯只是劳工权益的部分而是还有消费者的权益的部分"},{"start":7974.609,"end":8003.292,"text":"所以这有时候如果我们只有单一项的话其实这很好定我们大家都可以把它大幅调高但是我们又很怕这些平台去转嫁给消费者或者事实上再用其他的方式把这些成本又去转嫁给这些外送员这是我们不愿意看到的地方所以我想就说我们今天做这个条文第一个就是基本保障那第二个"},{"start":8004.173,"end":8031.591,"text":"我们也不能去授予平台有任何他可以去调价的借口我觉得这点也是非常重要的就是不能让这个平台用这样的一个方式去就是有各种借口说实在我们今天在推动推动我们这个专法的时候我们也非常清楚的知道那么在这之前其实已经开始有特定的的这个"},{"start":8033.512,"end":8054.041,"text":"團體已經在發動用所謂的會讓消費者這個外賣價格更高用這樣子來洗風向來帶風向試圖要阻擋我們這次專法的修正但是我覺得大家都非常的勇敢啦繼續的我覺得這個是我們該做的事情就繼續去做那"},{"start":8055.101,"end":8067.786,"text":"剛才也有特別提到現在各平台的實際的價格每一單最低是多少錢每一單最高是多少錢剛才有特別要提到40塊到50塊這個是大部分的嗎"},{"start":8070.487,"end":8092.249,"text":"有没有比较一个特殊状况我刚才有讲到就是说即便是同一个县市新北市最明显的比如说像在我们台北市选区比如你今天在我松山中山区跑你就跟40北头跑又完全不一样又完全不一样所以在这个目前平台的实际的实际的它每一单的价格"},{"start":8093.61,"end":8101.633,"text":"我們想可不可以有更精確你們所收集到的資料可以更精確的提供給我們做一個參考以上謝謝請王育民委員發言"},{"start":8108.066,"end":8134.351,"text":"好 谢谢劳动部今天有提出它的版本就是再次的修正建议那我想昨天大家在这条讨论非常多的确这次的修法我们要的是一个合理的保障也不是说诉诸要一个很高所谓的合理就是在兼顾这个外送员的权益然后还有消费者的权益之间我们今天拉出来这条线"},{"start":8135.531,"end":8153.599,"text":"讓平台業者他不可以因為這次的修法而大幅又轉嫁成本給消費者那這個昨天也請公平會就是要去注意到這樣的現象那如果按照現在勞動部所提出來的計昨天的1.25倍現在他換算出來的最"},{"start":8153.999,"end":8178.126,"text":"不得低於45元基本上這個很符合目前市場的行情也就是說如果是這樣子的一個修法版本通過之後我認為平台業者沒有任何理由去加價給消費者就是再次轉嫁成本如果這樣就是對消費者剝削這個是不合理的因為今天勞動部提出來的方案是折衷方案我必須這樣講因為委員的版本"},{"start":8178.706,"end":8202.427,"text":"我們昨天包含我自己的版本是希望基本薪資的三分之一最低是三分之一那你們今天提出來的其實保底變成是45元所以並沒有做非常大幅的調整是相對精算下來是取中間值的一個版本那如果是這樣子的話我覺得的確我們應該要讓平台業者知道如果是這樣的版本通過他真的沒有任何理由"},{"start":8204.008,"end":8221.608,"text":"說這個修法通過之後還繼續去炒作那種風向說我們就是要調高大幅調高這個外送費的這個價格這個是完全不合理的我覺得這件事情可能就是政府也要一個立場就是去關注這樣的現象我們現在平台業者沒有很多就只有兩家所以這樣的現象"},{"start":8225.052,"end":8243.082,"text":"那個就是變相再加價這個我們是絕對不允許的我覺得這件事情政府應該要有一個立場因為今天如果是按照勞動部最後提出來這樣的版本這不是一個很高的版本所以業者沒有漲價的理由也不應該再去漲價 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員請發言"},{"start":8252.695,"end":8280.157,"text":"对不起就比较谨慎所以还是再问一次就是劳动部有信心他不会涨价因为刚刚有公平会是他涨了价就要去采访但是我要问说因为刚刚其实劳动部有回应就是说有关于这个部分的利润大概都是45到50之间所以才45那所以我再谨慎的问就是说我们都要守护各方权益"},{"start":8281.452,"end":8302.9,"text":"以勞權來說這是重中之重但是我們也真的很擔心所以勞動部的評估目前覺得是比較不會漲價的可能性那另外我也要提就是說以目前來說他們現在的裁罰如果他們有達到這樣子的一個標準他的裁罰的條文是在第幾是你們有在第幾條會開始來做一個開罰這可以說明一下嗎謝謝"},{"start":8311.149,"end":8338.134,"text":"好請陳金惠委員發言剛剛聽完王育美委員說我也很贊同我覺得接下來我們要避免的就是這些未來成本轉嫁的不確定性所以如果今天可以有個決議大家我覺得各方平台消費者跟外送員都會比較安心一點就是配套措施來要求這個成本的轉嫁要透明化我們是可以請公平會再跟大家說明一下嗎好"},{"start":8341.061,"end":8351.774,"text":"然後來市長市長說好先請市長說明之後我請林月琴委員你要問嗎一起問嗎好那先請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":8354.082,"end":8372.874,"text":"剛剛前面都在問說會不會漲價我覺得今天這個權益保障法這個法應該事實上是主管機關勞動部勞動部應該沒辦法管人家漲不漲價吧那我覺得今天是說應該其他的那只是說這個到底合不合理已經事實上是在算出來是說從單裡邊"},{"start":8375.876,"end":8403.466,"text":"比較短單的11分鐘事實上是現在比較11分鐘以內的比較多那用短單來解決這問題所以抓了45塊所以我覺得這個可以接受那這是我覺得勞動部要盡責的要去保障到外送員的權益這一塊可是漲不漲價我覺得這不是勞動部所以應該是不是要請的是相關其他部會去來做回答以上"},{"start":8404.591,"end":8424.464,"text":"好 那也請陳昭芝委員發言謝謝 因為有關大家都擔心就是說這個法過以後會不會造成那個漲價那昨天公平會是很清楚的處理然後勞動部的說明因為你的基礎嘛就是要 而且公聽會是有平台業者他們也表達事實上現在收費是現在提供的這個報告是高於我們假設我們現在245還是距離相當遙遠"},{"start":8426.926,"end":8440.864,"text":"但是我現在但是另外一次我們現在關注的是消費者的部分但是那個合作商家呢因為現在這個平台跟台灣的合作商家收取的那個手續費是高於這個其他國家母國就是說大概兩倍"},{"start":8445.37,"end":8456.604,"text":"那如果說他是個隱藏的部分假設他要提高商家的成本這個商家也是我們要保護的那個stakeholder之一所以這個部分請問勞動部"},{"start":8458.935,"end":8476.587,"text":"有思考過或面對這個問題嗎假設他這個賬價我們看不到是在消費者端那如果在商家端那商家端這個部分那很多台灣的很多小吃啦就是這個就是所謂的微小這個這個他們的他們也是我們要保障的對象麻煩勞動部謝謝"},{"start":8480.514,"end":8494.669,"text":"好請勞動部說明主席各位這個有關於會不會漲價這事情其實我們也當然我們也非常的重視因為我們也不希望這樣的調整造成過度的好像消費者過度的負擔"},{"start":8495.71,"end":8520.905,"text":"那但是我必须很诚实的说其实在整个设计里面我们认为平台现在最重要的成本不是完全是在45块这个起跳而是在之前前面我们在定义的时候有通过一个条文就是每笔订单的定义那各位也得知道就是说过去平台他们的方式是第二单跟第三单的金额跟第一单是不一样的"},{"start":8521.465,"end":8548.346,"text":"同一个餐厅同一个消费者他们在整个去运作在计算的时候他们不会把它列成三单或两单独立的计算但是确实工会也很好外送也常常表达是说这叫单单不等值我虽然同时在一个餐厅里面取了两个餐结果我送假跟乙结果平台都把假的单的钱给的比较高乙的单的钱就给的很低很低"},{"start":8549.446,"end":8568.533,"text":"他们这个认为叫叠单不合理因为他们认为他给消费者收的钱都一样店家收钱的一样为什么给我比较少可是确实过去平台是透过这个方式有比较在成本上确实比较低跟消费者收的钱或许因为里面的财务我们不是很清楚"},{"start":8569.434,"end":8584.213,"text":"或許在第二單第三單他收取的費用會壓低可是現在我們是每一單都獨立算簡單講他在鼎泰豐收了三個單送了三個ABC變成三筆錢三個基本費就三個45保底"},{"start":8585.715,"end":8610.385,"text":"所以這就是才是一個比較大的一個關鍵當然我們 對我們來講我們當然是希望這是一個市場機制有時候我們在處理勞動政策跟勞動法令的調整至於企業會不會跟他的客戶多收費 漲價這有時候也不是我們能夠干預的可是我們也必須很誠實的去看到他們現在的現況跟大幅度的改變的狀況我們可能也要理解請勞動部長說明"},{"start":8616.027,"end":8637.331,"text":"那個因為各位委員都是我之前的同僚我完全理解現在大家坐在這邊現在都在也在想說會不會對消費者但是我只能說勞務部現在提出來的方案如果是重擴所有委員的版本"},{"start":8639.676,"end":8664.321,"text":"我們的這個方案應該是在所有委員的版本所有版本裡面對於平台的成本增加最少的今天在座委員們的版本如果版本的話對平台成本的增加應該都多過高過勞動部的版本而且高過不少"},{"start":8667.441,"end":8677.792,"text":"所以我了解大家現在在考慮的事情但我還是必須說朗普的版本是現在所有的版本裡面對平台的成本增加最少的那個陳昭之委員羅廷惟委員"},{"start":8693.154,"end":8716.337,"text":"好謝謝洪森漢部長這麼有尬實的講出這句話讓我們非常擔憂的部分事實沒關係你講出事實也都沒關係就是我覺得我能夠被你說服所以在基於已經保障消費者的前提我們都已經大致抵定的時候我想再問"},{"start":8717.83,"end":8736.277,"text":"那可不可以45變成4646變成4747變成48有沒有這樣子的一個空間當我已經確定能夠保障以後那剛剛你說的跟其他的委員差很多了嘛那我想更細緻的去討論45變45.545.5變46的問題這部分有沒有空間 您覺得呢 市長 部長委員 您可以提案"},{"start":8743.979,"end":8763.485,"text":"你可以提修正動議我先跟你探討我探討完我再決定我要不要提案委員你提修正動議我們就來討論對委員你提修正動議我們就來開放性的討論所以你現在是在我沒有動筆之前你沒辦法跟我討論"},{"start":8766.86,"end":8792.298,"text":"我的意思是說我們在委員會審議我覺得如果有這個想法那就提出這個想法的提案者應該也要提出那為什麼我覺得這是合理的那我沒有辦法去為每一個委員這樣子的方向提案那個提案去說明那個提案它的理由是什麼好處壞處是什麼我沒有辦法為每一個委員自己在心中想的提案去說明它的好處壞處是什麼"},{"start":8804.318,"end":8820.631,"text":"對但是因為剛才羅遠問我的事情是說那為什麼不46 47 48我說那那大家就那如果有提案我們就大家就來討論好那我用另外一個方法就跟你回應嘛就說我想支持你的提案最後你可不可以再說服我一下你為什麼會訂定45"},{"start":8824.588,"end":8829.304,"text":"我想我沒有說我都支持我想支持但最後你可不可以說服我你為什麼訂定45"},{"start":8832.855,"end":8861.343,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們就是在思考是說他們現在每一單大概就是10分鐘到15分居多10分鐘什麼因為都會區當然都會跟比較偏遠地方不太一樣10到12分鐘那我們也是希望大概10分鐘11分鐘以下的我們希望因為1分鐘4塊1是前面那個1.25那如果我們這裡訂的保底完全保護不到那等於是這個保底的意義就不大"},{"start":8862.003,"end":8888.571,"text":"所以我們那個範圍拉的範圍有個合理的區間所以如果以11分鐘來講就44塊所以我們希望保護在11分鐘以內的這麼短的短單而且他每個小時要跑到5.4單才有辦法滿足245塊的最低工資所以其實負荷也不輕那因此我們就用11分鐘以內的來方式來去把它拉到保底那至於11分鐘以後我們就認為跑的越長就是用我們的4.1來算"},{"start":8890.131,"end":8919.49,"text":"这个折中之下那再加上目前对于外送平台来讲他们的起跳大概保底大概就是40块到50块之间有时候乡下都市不太一样那有时候是天气好天气不好都不太一样但是他们平台也都会理解合理的一个保底的价格外送人才会愿意出门来做这样的一个跑所以我们大概用一个45块的做个折中的方式来做一个订定保底"},{"start":8920.63,"end":8946.199,"text":"我想過一個做法老公提三個方案來讓大家選比方說40塊45塊50塊我也想過這個做法5塊50塊那大家可以來綜合的討論來選因為每一個方案都沒有絕對完美的"},{"start":8948.371,"end":8955.108,"text":"所以我们也可以我自己也不排斥我们就提三个方案我们在委员会来综合讨论来选也可以"},{"start":8956.095,"end":8984.611,"text":"所以你要提修正动意了吗我可不可以提另外一个思考的方式那当然你今天我们排45块47块50块就可能划跑拉根那另外一个就刚刚大家也特别提到其实这个对于外送人是非常辛苦他一个小时之内起码你说什么5点不可能跑到6单他才能够达到那个基本工资的水准"},{"start":8985.191,"end":9012.537,"text":"那但是呢我們現在確實常常面臨那種異常的氣候當然颱風天是我們不要颱風天你不能出情嘛但是我們確實有這些異常氣候我這是從另外一個可不可以在這個條文裡面我可不可以請勞動們就是在一個比如說這個什麼樣的氣候之下可以讓它加權我比如說今天天氣下雨老實講如果今天下一個禮拜的雨你讓我"},{"start":9013.763,"end":9041.542,"text":"让我要跑那么多市场很辛苦而且而且又很危险好所以呢我自从另外一个思考方式我请劳动部可不可以对就是在什么样的气候之下我可以给他加权现在实际的状况就是在比方雨天的时候平台就会有加码的因素那对平台的想法也很简单因为我如果不加码的话我在这个条件下大家就不一定想出来"},{"start":9042.943,"end":9065.557,"text":"对所以我们可能对他也会加码所以我自己认为我说实话我们今天在处理报仇的概念我没有想要非常大量的大力的去介入他所有的行为我要去明定他所有的情境这个情境你要加码那个情境不能加码那个情境要少给一点我没有办法做这件事情我还是必须回到初衷"},{"start":9066.477,"end":9091.725,"text":"对于一个外送员这样子的一个工作者他的劳动权益到底要用什么东西来思考他的最低保障我只能回到这个初衷里面来去思考这件事情我没有办法在这里面想说今天遇到地震的时候会怎样遇到下大雨遇到台风台风就不能出勤了但是雨天怎样什么我没有办法去处理这个事情我觉得这个对于平台的这个介入就太大了"},{"start":9093.615,"end":9112.416,"text":"我只能想最初中的那個地板該是什麼我只能回到這事我認為這是我的想法但大家可以提出大家各自的想法來想請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":9113.922,"end":9129.402,"text":"我刚刚提到一个那个涨价不涨在可能的合作上假设但是当然劳动部你刚刚很清楚我也希望当我们通过这个法案的时候你基本上也要对社会大众说明说基本上我们定这个版本的前提下"},{"start":9130.003,"end":9148.52,"text":"这个平台业者基本上他的成本增加是是有限的那我刚刚也发现第14条哈就是当当做布板吧还会提到这那我就请经济部来准备哈就说当商家假设这个转嫁真的发生了我们担心的事情没有发生在消费但是发生在这个嗯"},{"start":9148.86,"end":9177.101,"text":"合作商家的时候那那个不后对抽成因为现在已经高过全两倍嘛他在母国的两倍了嘛那这个时候就说怎么来处理那你知道商家的利润但是要是不合理的被拉高的话那我们的当然这边有提到食安这些所有的问题都会衍生而出那我就请他们就准备一下因为刚刚就大家谈到涨价请经济部做准备我们在14条或是说14条合作契约啦"},{"start":9177.561,"end":9199.404,"text":"合作契約 等一下因為對 趙執委員說後面合作契約的時候再來討論好不好 那商家的部分現在先針對外送人權益好那請問還有沒有委員有什麼意見或想法那我本期想要問一下請問勞動部在訂這個標準的時候你們有去看過相關平台的公開財報嗎"},{"start":9202.489,"end":9211.476,"text":"因為我相信剛剛很多委員在擔心的都是說今天這專法下去之後對於這些消費者的影響當然你沒辦法介入他可不可以漲價但是你們有沒有看過"},{"start":9212.692,"end":9240.721,"text":"我跟還是要跟委員說明對勞動部來說最重要的事情是那個對工作者的最低保障是什麼我們不會因為他的財報很好我們就覺得這個價格可以定高他的財報不好我就要把這個價格定低我們在想最低工資的調整的時候也不是這樣想的所以我們能夠還是必須本於回歸到最原始的初衷我們覺得或大家一起覺得"},{"start":9242.174,"end":9268.15,"text":"給一個有外送勞動的工作者該有的最低薪酬的最低保障應該抓在哪一個水準怎樣是合理我們只能回到這件事情來去做發想好請羅廷惠委員發言市長最後再跟你一個請問再確認一次"},{"start":9269.492,"end":9291.482,"text":"因為你剛剛說這個不得低於45元你的試算是11分鐘每分鐘4.1對不對好我跟大家報告11分鐘乘以4.1最後的數字是45.1你寫45元所以我希望且不得低於新台幣45.1是不是要寫進去"},{"start":9299.38,"end":9319.39,"text":"因為這是一個基準點你不要看這個基準點它的浮動我不是在吹毛球詩啊它是一個基準點當這個基準定進去因為你是以11分鐘為主嘛對 但是你試算是以11分鐘每分鐘4.1"},{"start":9333.694,"end":9356.523,"text":"計算的一個大致的一個計算的論理對那我們在條文沒有寫11分鐘並沒有我們條文上沒有寫到11分鐘12分鐘什麼都沒有我們只說45元就這個定義好OK我沒問題謝謝請問有沒有還有沒有問題如果沒有的話"},{"start":9359.365,"end":9380.847,"text":"請問陳英委員陳英委員請發言然後再來請陳昭之委員我是想請教一下就是說在我們整個修法的過程立法的過程還有前置作業那不知道有沒有完全了解掌握平台的整個的運算"},{"start":9382.248,"end":9396.577,"text":"好這個我不清楚就是要請教勞動部有沒有掌握好這是第一件事我這樣看起來我想很多的立委同仁其實並不清楚那我自己是個重度Uber使用者"},{"start":9397.478,"end":9424.896,"text":"那我剛收了一下就是說每單45塊錢那現在還有一種狀況因為他們其實還有一些優惠的方案那比如說累積你訂單到多少之後你的那個就是運送的費用可能會有一些優惠那但這些要轉嫁到誰身上就是說我們這個每單45是"},{"start":9427.813,"end":9451.748,"text":"就是說運送員他就一定都是45那可能搞不好就是說我們在那個我們隨便舉例就是立法院旁邊送過來那45跟很長一段也是45那但是我是說你們去了解一下"},{"start":9453.275,"end":9480.071,"text":"我們在訂這些之前是不是應該要了解整個平台他們所有的計算運算方式還有一些優惠方案因為其實是很複雜的他不是單一這樣子處理那我提這個是就是說我們今天訂這個沒有辦法在座沒有任何一個人可以絕對保證說"},{"start":9482.577,"end":9496.091,"text":"我們在立法之後消費者的部分不會多付費這個誰都不敢保證我們也不可能去立一個附帶決議"},{"start":9497.953,"end":9522.409,"text":"因為我們譬如說那個剛剛也謝謝那個陳金輝委員的建議但是譬如說他診所要怎麼收費怎麼樣我們也不可能去用一個附帶決議去約束所以這件事情我是建議說我們是不是應該也要先了解一下那個平台整個的他的那個運算方式啊然後我們再來再繼續來處理"},{"start":9528.002,"end":9542.34,"text":"請部長回應我先再說明一下就是說其實當然對於薪酬的保障的報酬的保障這條我想勞動部是我們的工作是提出我們"},{"start":9544.71,"end":9565.09,"text":"的一些方案的看法那我也還是必須說如果委員們把現在所有的委員的版本拿出來可以看的話其實絕大部分的委員他在薪酬保障的這一條他提出來的方案是每一筆要是65塊以上"},{"start":9568.376,"end":9585.614,"text":"就三分之一的最低工资这个三分之一最低工资如果用今年的话对可能是要65块以上的我们的确现在提出来相比委员的版本每每笔是65块以上我们提了一个45块的"},{"start":9589.202,"end":9617.381,"text":"這個從不同的角度出發會有不同的看法但是我們也必須承擔一定程度大家就是說這個從65變成45的這件事情但是大家如果仔細看大家委員手上這一本絕大部分的委員的每一筆訂單是65塊以上的那我們也是考慮了很多所以我們把這65降到45我現在講的是一個事實"},{"start":9619.284,"end":9644.51,"text":"但对平台来说平台的经营来说的确我们不是平台经营的专家所以如果委员们要针对整体更多面向的讨论我们愿意跟大家持续的讨论所有的面向我们愿意持续的讨论但我们能够做的事情是在综合这些思考以后先提出我们对这事情我们认为比较能够平衡各方的方案"},{"start":9645.71,"end":9674.47,"text":"這個方案 我們的確是很大程度的降低了相比委員版本要60幾塊的 降到45塊也許會有人滿意 也許會有人不滿意我必須說 也許會有人滿意 也許會有人不滿意那如果委員要更委員們如果要需要更多的討論 更細緻的更多的環節去做推敲的話我覺得我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":9678.639,"end":9701.061,"text":"謝謝勞動部說明請問各位委員還有沒有任何意見沒有意見那是不是就照勞動部的這個修正修正建議也就是依劉建國委員等16人的提案然後仲裁各位委員意見修正通過我們在修正前請你先請司長先這個宣讀一次"},{"start":9708.107,"end":9725.045,"text":"第五条 外送平台业者起付外送员每笔订单之基本报酬不得低于该笔订单外送服务期间依比例换算最低工资法所定每小时最低工资至1.25倍且不得低于信贷币45元之保障金额"},{"start":9725.766,"end":9749.114,"text":"前項每一筆訂單基本報酬之保障金額由中央主管機關依前一年度保障金額乘以每年最低工資法所定每小時最低工資調升比例公告調整好那這個請問在場委員有沒有意見好"},{"start":9749.85,"end":9778.57,"text":"如果沒有意見的話呢那就依照不版這次勞動部提出的修正建議條文然後也就是依劉建國委員等16人的提案仲裁各委員意見修正通過那接下來就剛剛是討論到第9嗎接下來第10好那接下來按"},{"start":9780.051,"end":9805.302,"text":"接下來來審本席的第三章的名稱也就是好第三章在後面這裡68頁就是68頁"},{"start":9811.172,"end":9835.744,"text":"好請那個勞動部說明是有關於委員廖偉鄉的25人提案第三章的章名是外送保險與安全那這部分因為我們接下來這些條文不只是保險跟安全那還有很多的面向還有特別還有平台的管理等等那是不是這個地方我們就不要只是列外送員的保險與安全會比較適當以上"},{"start":9839.185,"end":9846.212,"text":"本席不堅持那有沒有其他委員有說明沒有的話就是本條不予採納那接下來進行這個第10條"},{"start":9856.603,"end":9873.461,"text":"主席各位委員第四條主要是現在外送員最關心的就是他們的投保商保的部分所以我們在第四條有明定那投保團險團體傷害保險跟責任保險而且沒有投保之前不能使外送員提供外送服務"},{"start":9874.882,"end":9893.403,"text":"以下我们特别对保险的时段做明定第一个就是团体商业保险部分在外送服务契约的有效期间都有第二个责任保险的话在上限期间就有了不只是只有在外送服务的期间包括上限期间就有责任保险"},{"start":9894.204,"end":9911.334,"text":"那至于保险的额度跟保险的范围呢我们未来就透过我们劳动部来公告保险的范围好有个机动性的调整的空间然后第三个我们以会请要求平台呢以书面或电子方式提供保险契约好以及缴费明细以外出人员收值好"},{"start":9912.194,"end":9938.545,"text":"另外我们这里特别明定就是外送员如果连续有14天他都没有提供外送服务的记录的时候外送平台可以暂时停止办理投保前项的保险经过我们这段时间的一个听取各方的意见我们这里做简单的两项的修正第一个修正部分就是因为团体保险它不会有缴费明细"},{"start":9939.585,"end":9955.916,"text":"所以这个部分好我们希望我们就调整一下就是缴费明细他只要保险机会提供给外送员收纸就可以了其实有关于外送员连续14天了因为确实平台业者有跟我们反映了如果外送员他其实"},{"start":9956.676,"end":9982.781,"text":"很长时间不齐了我们要等14天其实对于外送品来讲这是一种道德风险而且造成他的不必要的成本所以我们这里就稍微做个修正外送员连续三日无提供外送服务记录者这是连续连续三天都没有记录他可以暂时停止你只要上线他再给你保这个没有问题以上说明"},{"start":9986.435,"end":9986.657,"text":"請陳超資委員發言"},{"start":9988.835,"end":10016.258,"text":"謝謝主席 我想先請教勞動部跟金管會 雖然說額度未來會討論 但是我想是不是可以先稍微瞭解目前平台為外送員投保的團體傷害險和責任險最低保額是多少那如果有一個 因為外送員覺得要多一個保障 能夠自費加保超額責任險嗎那就金管會的掌握 目前有保險公司願意提供這樣的服務嗎 謝謝"},{"start":10025.682,"end":10026.204,"text":"請行政部門說明"},{"start":10030.143,"end":10057.477,"text":"好 勞動部這邊來說明依照我們目前的這個所訂的外送作業安全衛生指引我們裡面提到的那個保險額度以這個人身保險的話這個團體傷害保險是新台幣最低額度是300萬元然後團體的傷害保險傷害醫療的部分時資時付是新台幣3萬元然後住院日額是新台幣1000元"},{"start":10060.95,"end":10085.283,"text":"就是他們可以自己增加就是可以自費加保那個超額的責任險嗎那這個部分還有第二個就是現在有保險公司願意承擔會提供這樣的這個服務嗎目前您掌握隨著這個法嗎這個部分確實也是我們慈安署跟平台也跟金管會有那時候溝通很久"},{"start":10085.863,"end":10104.591,"text":"確實後來才有這樣的一個賢總可以來做投保那現在是把明文立法法定進去因為本來是我們用指引的方式要求平台業者去做這樣的投保那這次我們認為說把它立在法裡面比較有依據而且這樣的賢總的保險的利益也比較橫貧好還有沒有請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":10110.43,"end":10128.302,"text":"那個我剛沒有聽清楚你說外送員那個連續於三日沒有提供外送服務紀錄你就暫時停止投保前項保險那你原來版本其實是14天喔這個三天你們不考慮外送員他可能生病啊譬如說他就是一個"},{"start":10129.182,"end":10146.265,"text":"像現在流感他一流感他沒有辦法去跑單他可能三四天五天他需要休息一個禮拜但是這樣的情況馬上就停止保險然後他要開始又要加保險這樣是不是太反覆你這樣子縮短的目的是什麼"},{"start":10147.166,"end":10162.577,"text":"謝謝委員其實對平台跟外送員來講外送員可能本來就有他自己的工作有自己他應該公司幫他保的保險那是另外一件事可是你對平台來講我對你的責任應該照理講應該是你上線的時候我才有"},{"start":10163.658,"end":10186.481,"text":"那其實一天兩天沒有上線按照橫頻來講外送平台其實就可以不用幫你保其實照理講你應該上線的時候我再幫你保意外險可是現在我們把它擴大也就是說你拼上去幫他保假設你兩天三天裡面有一天跑三天有一天跑我還是在沒有跑的那些日子我還是有意外險給你成本我還是要給給付"},{"start":10187.882,"end":10203.533,"text":"所以這個已經有超過了應該平台對外送員的責任也就是說他不跑的時候照理講你跟我之間沒有任何你根本不上線那我要求我平台還是要讓你有意外險的保障他這個利潤基礎就不會那麼強烈"},{"start":10204.814,"end":10227.961,"text":"我懂但是你你這樣子會不會造成一種就是要持續的加保退保加保退保這個平台沒有問題沒有問題對他們連線那這個我們也跟公會討論那對外送員會不會造成行政上限也都沒有我們跟公會討論公會其實也能夠接受都可以接受你都不起的人他也覺得這個成本不應該花那麼多在不起的人對好好如果他們也都接受那我就沒有問題好請羅廷惠委員發言"},{"start":10232.826,"end":10255.991,"text":"可是我问他们他就是可以一上线马上就投保吗他不需要等一天他们都可以一上线就有好只要能够确保他能够上线投保不会因而耽误到他工作的那我们就可以接受简单来说这个保险他对平台的确是一个支付了的确是一个成本"},{"start":10256.691,"end":10280.449,"text":"那照原理來說的話應該是你有上限才有那我們原本是寫14天那時候是寫的比較保守那後來在跟己方溝通以後大家認為其實的確如果你外送員沒有上限你有一段時間沒有跑其實這段時間平台不用去支付你沒有跑這段時間的相對應的保險的成本這也是合理的事情"},{"start":10281.249,"end":10291.536,"text":"所以只要他的能夠機動的上下線這個保險的生效與否其實這是應該都還好所以我們才覺得可以從14天變成3天好能確保就好好那如果各位委員沒有意見的話那這條是不是還是請那個市長宣讀一下因為有修正嘛"},{"start":10311.052,"end":10333.913,"text":"第十一條 我們主要就修正這往下第十條 對 不好意思 第十條就是第三 以書面或電子方式提供保險契約與外送員收值並保存一年外送員連續逾三日無提供外送服務記錄者 外送平台業者使得暫時停止辦理投保前項保險"},{"start":10334.694,"end":10363.169,"text":"另外還有後面我們刪除了一個那個收值 對保險契約我特別強調一下我們中間本來有一個保險的明細那個費用明細我們把它刪除了 對好謝謝市長那各位委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那就依照劉建國委員等16人及勞動部的修正建議那重採各位委員的意見修正通過"},{"start":10365.677,"end":10386.345,"text":"好那接下來進入本席有一個第四章的申訴制度那也請勞動部說明跟主席跟委員報告這個整個外送人申訴制度是使外送員的權益的一環那其實消費者跟合作商家他其實有的爭議交通部跟經濟部都會透過定型化契約去訂"},{"start":10387.405,"end":10413.957,"text":"合作商家也好或者是消費者的一些定型化契約那為此各方生物制度更加明確我們建議是不要定在同一個條文所以我們都有分散來訂定那因此這一張可不可以就是不用在這裡特別明定好尊重勞動部意見謝謝委員好那這條不予採納接下來進入到第11條也就是布版的第11條也是委員劉建國等16人就是布版這條"},{"start":10415.327,"end":10435.182,"text":"是 主席各位委員第11條主要就是我們對外送員他們怕是因為有巨擔造成不利的對待所以我們在這裡明定兩件事情第一件事情就是你不能強制排定外送員一定要讓他上線的期間或違反外送員的意願時期一直維持上線的狀況"},{"start":10436.423,"end":10454.134,"text":"第二點是外送平台業者對外送員拒絕接單或選擇下線休息不得有不利的對待主要是希望外送員能夠有個比較自由彈性的工作讓他不會因為拒單造成他有違反造成他有很多的不利的對待所以我們在這裡明定"},{"start":10455.254,"end":10479.521,"text":"至於有部分委員的版本有提到是從事外送服務這個定義的範圍我們從前面開始都是用提供外送服務會比較明確其實有的委員版本有提到是把商品運送重量提積的交通法規列入這個部分交通法規其實有明定所以我們也認為在這個地方是不是就也不用在那邊明定以上報告好"},{"start":10483.476,"end":10486.661,"text":"請王振旭委員發言好謝謝主席 針對第12條剛剛這11條不是完全服務嗎第11條第11條"},{"start":10497.813,"end":10524.824,"text":"第11條 第11條是就是有關離線權的部分我們知道雖然說道路交通安全規則已經有規定一個機車在處理的時候呢他有一定的這些要求的部分不過我們還是希望有機會把它放掉放進法條裡面最重要就是我們也知道有時候外送員在"},{"start":10526.124,"end":10541.591,"text":"他們已經既有的這個車子本身有時候真的很不得已可能會受限於要求要在一個時間裡面這個體積或者是相對所在的這個商品的重量會"},{"start":10542.771,"end":10565.07,"text":"無法無法真的很能夠如期如實的去做完這個事情所以如果放在法條裡面的話希望能夠增加或者是讓這個要求度配合度可以更為完整所以才會特別希望說在這個第三款也把這個放進去在這個立法說明裡面也把它說明清楚以上請參考好請請說明"},{"start":10569.502,"end":10586.287,"text":"是 那關於王委員所建議的事項因為在相關的道路交通安全的相關的一個規定裡面針對於貨物的運送它的一個長度寬度還有重量都有一些的規定那是不是就不需要在這邊另外做一個訂定 以上是"},{"start":10587.927,"end":10612.984,"text":"對不起我再度發言因為有時候其實派單本身他無法掌控就是外送員他到了現場才發現奇怪就是無法去遵守規定會造成他在現場服務期間造成一個困擾或者是影響所以才會希望再討論看看那如果真的像剛剛我們交通部所提的對不起"},{"start":10614.325,"end":10632.044,"text":"市交通部是覺得認為這樣已經夠的話那我們可不可以用附帶決議的方式來處理就是說到時候我們麻煩大家從這個附帶決議裡面希望根據這個現在的道路交通安全規則裡面讓這個部分可以得到更好的保障"},{"start":10632.985,"end":10647.849,"text":"就是就不堅持放進這個法條裡面可是可以用附帶決議來處理萬一這個外送員真的面臨不得已的狀況之下所要面臨的問題以上再補充是不是請行政部門回應"},{"start":10658.322,"end":10670.647,"text":"那是不是委員提到那個附帶決議的時候我們再來處理好那第11 我也想請問一下第11條跟本席的第16條好像是一樣的那有什麼差別嗎"},{"start":10674.704,"end":10697.751,"text":"謝謝委員的提案就是說我們主要還是希望用提供從事我們感覺上就沒有那麼簡單前面都是用講提供主要是這個對另外有下限選擇下限我們就選擇下限休息那看這樣會不會比較精確一點其實意思跟委員的意思我們都差不多好那本席沒有意見"},{"start":10700.792,"end":10710.461,"text":"請問在場委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那這一條就依這個劉建國等16 請羅天威委員發言"},{"start":10716.222,"end":10742.179,"text":"剛剛有說明到這一個劉建國委員那個版本是基本上都認同我只想一個就教於勞動部那因為他的版本最後有寫說第二款外送平台業者對於外送員拒絕接單或選擇下線休息不得有不利對待當然有些不利對待是很顯現的但是我對於一個比較擔憂的就是說演算法"},{"start":10743.001,"end":10754.449,"text":"演算法會讓這個人比較接不到單那這樣子的做法其實我們認為是不利對待但是很難去揪出那該怎麼辦有沒有防範的方法"},{"start":10757.482,"end":10775.555,"text":"主席跟委員報告我們前面都有提到申訴制度最主要的目的就是在這個地方也就是說我們包括你的接單包括你的報酬如果你外送員覺得說我是因為巨蛋以後突然我的接單大幅下降"},{"start":10776.295,"end":10795.944,"text":"然後跟我以前或者跟我的外送員的朋友差距非常大他就可以提起申訴然後這個申訴處理呢就是大家可以把這件事情來做一些溝通來談所以我們的建議的方式就是不利對待可以由申訴的方式來做一個處理好 請問還有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":10803.151,"end":10810.193,"text":"好如果沒有意見的話那本條第11條就依照不版也就是這個劉建國委員等16人的版本通過"},{"start":10812.95,"end":10838.88,"text":"那接下來接下來進行第12條部板的第12條社會保險的部分是主席各位委員我們除了前面的商業保險之外這次我們也特別是希望那衛生員也能夠得到我們勞工職業災害保險及保護法所規定的災保所以我們特別在這條明定有兩個途徑第7條跟第10條各兩種途徑一個途徑是經過所屬職業工會來做投保"},{"start":10841.181,"end":10856.08,"text":"第二个是个人可以特别加保办理参加劳工职业灾害保险然后这个部分的保险的缴费的证明可以向外送平台申请支付他自行负担的保险费那外送平台业者不得拒绝"},{"start":10856.881,"end":10872.199,"text":"那外送員同時在兩個以上的外送平台提供服務呢僅得折一來申請那事實上我們的保險就是他從事這個外送的服務其實保一個就可以了都要收到保障這個就我們特別加以明定"},{"start":10872.899,"end":10894.13,"text":"以上說明那至於委員的版本的部分我也請要說明就是說我們定的把第10條跟第7條也把明定也比較清楚那所以我們用我們的文字當然很多委員的意思跟我們的差不多只是說我們有把依照災保法的條文比較明定"},{"start":10894.97,"end":10923.829,"text":"也可以讓這個外送員也比較理解透過職業工會或或者是特別加保的管道所以我們把第7條也把它訂進去讓外送員也比較理解以上報告好謝謝勞動部說明那請問各位委員有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話那這條我們是不是就依照布版這個也就是委員劉建國等16人的這個提案照案通過"},{"start":10925.64,"end":10951.582,"text":"好那接下來進到這個有一個第三章外送平台管理的這個章名請勞動部說明主席各位委員第三章開始就是我們針對外送平台的管理的部分所以我們在第三章這裡的章名我們特別就訂定外送平台管理以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那就依照通過"},{"start":10954.383,"end":10978.528,"text":"那接下來第13條主席各位委員第13條我們就有關於交通部要針對外送平台業者跟消費者的重要權利義務事項然後依照消保法會訂定定型化契約跟印記載不印記載的事項然後再報請人員核定公告以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":10982.363,"end":10994.934,"text":"好 如果委員都沒有意見的話那這一條就依照部版 勞動部的版本也就是委員劉建國等16人的提案 照案通過接下來第14條"},{"start":10999.151,"end":11026.876,"text":"主席各位 第14條是針對商家的部分由我們經濟主管機關對外送平台業者跟合作商家成立外送合作契約之重要權利義務事項擬定契約範本再來公告那契約範本包括商品提供的價格 收取服務運送費用金額或比例貨款結算與支付方式 食品安全與衛生管理爭議處理契約期間與中置條件及其他有關合作商家權益之事項"},{"start":11027.896,"end":11038.993,"text":"那衛生平台也應該把這樣的一個契約在7天之內提供給合作商下來收值這未來就是由經濟部來做處理以上說明好那請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":11040.762,"end":11069.346,"text":"就是剛剛我擔心的因為其實大家都想說公開談說這樣這一次的這個定價應該理論上不會增加平台業者的成本那消費者部分大家公開大概都聽到了那商家的部分呢因為這個在他們簽約的內容當如果他們對商家就是把這個所謂的目前通過法案他們所簽聲的這個成本增加轉嫁到這個合作的商家那經濟部有辦法做這個管理嗎"},{"start":11070.782,"end":11092.953,"text":"或約束嗎因為目前他們的手續費我們據我們了解我想這也是事實在台灣是非常高非常高我想我想也許經濟部也理解勞動部也理解其實今天這兩天我們開會已經有人提出來了大概在32到35%的這個手續費非常的高昂"},{"start":11095.526,"end":11100.195,"text":"那這樣對於商家的影響是不是請經濟部能夠說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":11102.008,"end":11127.213,"text":"請經濟部說明好 謝謝主席經濟部回應陳昭志委員的提醒我們在這個過程也是有談很多商家商家也有公文我們現在目前掌握到的最高是收到35%這麼多商家給我們的回饋意見我以餐食為例每一份餐點它的對於每一個店家它的成本不同"},{"start":11128.133,"end":11151.556,"text":"所以這個%對每一個店家的承受耐受度不同店家除了這個抽成的比例覺得太高以外在我們訪談之中店家還有關心到其實比如說剛剛有提到的申訴機制就是一個消費者他只要一申訴平台就無端的就先扣店家的款"},{"start":11152.276,"end":11178.648,"text":"他們比較在意的其實有很大部分會是這些還有款項款項的支付不夠明確所以我們後續會在契約範本裡面都會把這些店家關心的議題納入那至於抽成的這個%數店家給我們回饋很多數的訊息是說他們希望的是一個公開公開透明的計算方式在他們跟平台簽約的時候"},{"start":11180.129,"end":11206.484,"text":"平台有義務把後續收取的費用計算方式跟支付方式要把這些資訊充足的提供給店家來做評估是不是要跟他們簽約或後續的接受他們的服務那比較偏遠的商家也有跟我們回饋說如果說這個%一旦定了那平台他有考量說未來偏遠的地區也有可能不納入他們的服務範圍"},{"start":11207.825,"end":11233.977,"text":"所以其实这个比例是有点两面人所以尊重市场的机制那就经济部的立场会去维护商家跟平台之间商家的权益会把商家所关心的都会纳入到契约范本里面以上补充谢谢你这样说明因为这个商家的成本一旦拉高我们都知道后果因为商家大部分以食物为主那基本上他的这个成本拉高以后"},{"start":11234.477,"end":11238.718,"text":"那接下來的就一連串的問題跟藥品一模一樣當大家成本被拉高以後或是沒有合理的一個利潤的支撐那它的整個品質這個現在目前還是以食品為主這個食安的問題這個開始就會出現了因為我們昨天當然跟環境部長在討論這就怎麼從源頭解就是說包括這次的外送業我們也在思考說部長也在思考"},{"start":11260.923,"end":11280.235,"text":"未來是不是要求他們用所謂的循環資源而不是用太多的塑膠袋一方面也都在跑所以這些事情也是說請經濟部要稍微關注一下這件事情因為它最後成本提高的結果就是食材受害食材受害就是人民受害請羅天威委員發言"},{"start":11287.016,"end":11312.717,"text":"剛剛經濟部有對於這個部分有寫說這個契約範本那我想詢問一下經濟部有沒有考慮到這一條能夠像剛剛我們在討論外送員一樣有一個所謂的申訴的獨立處理小組用這樣子的一個模式來給予這個申訴的一個過程更公平的去做一個處理這個部分我想詢問一下經濟部對於這樣的看法"},{"start":11313.482,"end":11327.587,"text":"那另外第二個就是說想請問我們現在有一個狀況也要跟大家分享其實我不知道大家都是使用Uber Eats還是Full PandaFull Panda他有一個規定是商家的定價"},{"start":11329.212,"end":11342.884,"text":"不可以高於網路的平台定價不可以高於現場購買的價格也就是說假設一個便當同樣的內容店家在實際販賣是100"},{"start":11344.545,"end":11366.79,"text":"它不可以在網路上賣120、110、130所以通常會用不同的方式改成用比如說變成套餐含一個青菜強迫要求便當加青菜這個是Foodpanda的一個做法但是Ubereat的話它現在是直接就可能價格"},{"start":11368.25,"end":11384.2,"text":"會直接漲他可能就是130的便當賣你就是高於現場的價格那當然就是消費端就會產生高額的給付那Uber E他這樣子的做法也可能就是因為他抽成比較高"},{"start":11385.36,"end":11402.848,"text":"那我覺得這部分經濟部有沒有打算在這個契約範本裡面也去制定到維護到消費者的權益之外然後又可以幫忙協助到不要這麼35%的一個剝削來照顧到合作廠商跟消費者以上"},{"start":11405.572,"end":11430.528,"text":"好 請經濟部回應好 謝謝主席回應羅廷輝委員的提醒那有關爭議處理我們在這個第14條裡面有提到將來企業範本裡面會納入爭議的處理機制那我們到時候謝謝你的提出我們會在企業範本裡面把這個再寫得更詳細一點那至於你剛剛提到店面的價格"},{"start":11434.909,"end":11461.217,"text":"這個後續我們再是不是容我們再去了解一下有關您剛提到的Uber Eats他的這個做法那一樣會在契約範本裡面會納入相關的對商家的保障好請問還有沒有委員有意見附帶決議如果你不放心的話"},{"start":11467.09,"end":11482.496,"text":"好那這條還有沒有委員有意見好如果沒有的話那這個本條文呢依照勞動部版本也就是這個劉建國委員等16人的提案照案通過接下來進入到第15條"},{"start":11490.65,"end":11511.933,"text":"主席跟委員有關第15條就是我們有規範外送平台業者與政府機關因天然災害宣布停止上班的地區應該停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員那我們委員的提案有的是訂得非常的精細就是上午半天下午半天幾點到幾點"},{"start":11514.495,"end":11542.351,"text":"或者是區域的部分因為我們現在地方政府在執行這個部分已經很成熟了他也會宣佈時間所以我們這個地方可不可以就不用在明定半天跟下午半天第二個就是我們現在已經有所謂的地區來做一個定義的範圍所以我們用地區比較好因為現在還有包括鄉鎮的狀況有可能所以我們用地區來做定義的話會更精確 以上報告"},{"start":11543.595,"end":11567.469,"text":"好 請問有沒有委員有請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席剛剛有提到說有關於這個地區的部分我們覺得還是有所擔心我們也瞭解一般來講外送平台業者在政府機關因為天然災害宣布停止上班的時候應該停止營業並通知合作商家及外送員"},{"start":11568.529,"end":11589.142,"text":"這個是非常自然的事情不管他是雇傭關係或承攬關係或者是只要有這些處理模式我相信全國都會依照這個規定來辦理可是我們比較擔心的是萬一外送平台業者在因為天然災害以致使外送員繼續外送服務有發生危險之餘時"},{"start":11591.123,"end":11610.515,"text":"這個部分就是同樣的我們最近的案例就是在新北台北他可能會宣佈幾區是要符合這個停止上班或上課可是在就在新北不同的鄉鎮可能就會有要求還是"},{"start":11611.455,"end":11629.157,"text":"沒有到達這個停止上班上課的情形之下那這些外送員可能還是要冒著風險來去因為派單而去要做外送的這個需求所以我們才會希望增加第二項就是外送平台業者於天然災害致使"},{"start":11629.637,"end":11649.793,"text":"外送員繼續外送服務有發生危險之餘時就是就是那個附近同樣還是有這個高的風險的時候應要立即採取以足以保障外送員安全的必要措施就是可以去判斷即使他是沒有被宣布可是就是在那個附近而且也"},{"start":11650.934,"end":11674.454,"text":"了解不管是風像風力啦或者是這個雨的大小都足以會影響到這個造成的影響的話呢假設他是雇傭關係當然他本來就有保障可是如果他是承攬關係這個保障還是需要能夠達到有一定程度的讓這個外送平台業者能夠做一些可以"},{"start":11675.555,"end":11686.387,"text":"必要的措施來保護 讓這些平台業者能夠 外送員能夠有更好的一個基本的處理的需求 以上好 請行政部門回應"},{"start":11687.557,"end":11704.285,"text":"謝謝委員提案那這個委員的提案我們也討論過主要的關鍵就是我們現在天然災害就是一件動作就是停止營業就是讓他不能執行外送服務因為對外送員來講"},{"start":11706.927,"end":11734.149,"text":"我們也想不出來有什麼樣的措施可以讓衛生員更安全因為他是騎車然後安全帽也有戴那天氣如果不好我們還要讓他去執行再多的措施頂多叫他騎慢一點但是危險的時候刮風下雨他其實這樣騎還是很危險所以我們唯一的選擇一條路就是宣布停止上班上課他就不能執行業務"},{"start":11735.33,"end":11762.925,"text":"那如果宣布他還是宣布這個沒有停止上班上課那我們就說橫著什麼狀況之下讓他可以停止營業我們也擔心這個標準不明確就是當地方政府並沒有宣布的時候那這個標準就不容易去定我們也比較擔心這個部分明白那可是假設他剛好台北跨區新北跨區就剛剛提到嘛"},{"start":11763.465,"end":11775.567,"text":"就是他可能會限定說幾個地方是屬於因為天然災害政府宣布了可是他跨區去處理的話那我們怎麼去保障這些外送員"},{"start":11776.539,"end":11804.412,"text":"跟委員報告假設瑞芳區停止上班上課他就不能起到瑞芳區他就沒有跑去那邊去執行當然他可以去板橋他也可能可以去中和沒有關係但是在瑞芳那個區他就不能進行營業我們現在的規範是這樣所以意思就是說他如果是從瑞芳送到瑞芳他本來就不可以嘛不可以那如果從汐止送到瑞芳也不行也不行 對"},{"start":11805.972,"end":11833.62,"text":"那如果矽脂送到矽脂附近可是它還是風雨很大只是還沒有被宣佈是屬於這個天然災害的停止上班那這樣是允許的即使說那個風雨其實跟隔壁差不多只是因為它沒有被宣佈這樣子這也跟我們報告就是說現在對於受僱的勞工我們現在的也是大概用這個方式來做一個停止上班上課的一個定義範圍"},{"start":11835.06,"end":11846.753,"text":"那針對外送員我們路由一個新的一個模式譬如說鄰近幾個鄉鎮那這樣新創建的模式我怕外送員也會覺得有沒有影響到他的工作"},{"start":11848.719,"end":11872.214,"text":"有 我們也擔心這個地方所以我們還是以一個統一的標準就是受僱的勞工的標準跟外送員的標準我們讓他起義都是因為宣布停止上班上課的這個前提來做處理會不會比較一致性了解 可是就是還是很擔心萬一他就是穿過我意思說假設瑞芳她是被宣布停止停班"},{"start":11872.634,"end":11889.373,"text":"可是呢他送的地方是從一個地方穿過瑞芳到另外一個地方他的目的地跟他的起始地其實不是在這個被保護被被宣佈的地方這是一些假設狀況我我只是希望這邊可以有多多了解一下謝謝委員好那"},{"start":11889.713,"end":11911.518,"text":"我們這樣想委員這樣的想法我們把它放在說明欄就是說它除了停止上班看即便沒有停止上班上課或者是在鄰近的區域也應該注意外送員的安全然後適時的來做營業的停止與否的考慮我們在說明欄去強化一下就是說因為它畢竟就是鄰近的假如鄰近的停止上班上課的區域"},{"start":11912.658,"end":11935.396,"text":"那應該兼顧外送員的安全來考量是否停止營業是好我們在說明欄來增加一下好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝請問還有沒有委員有意見好如果沒有的話那本條次呢就依照勞動部版本喔這個通過依照劉建國委員等16人提案通過"},{"start":11943.513,"end":11969.875,"text":"那接下來是這個本席有提一個第5章的章名那請勞動部說明主席各位有關於那個第5章的章名那因為資訊安全跟資料保存也是屬於我們平台管理的範圍的所以我們這裡就建議不用再特別在獨立這樣的一個章節以上好本席不堅持沒有問題有各位委員有意見嗎沒有那本條不予採納"},{"start":11972.045,"end":11994.226,"text":"接下來進到第16條 個資保護的部分主席 各位委員第16條主要就是因為個資是非常重要所以我們這裡明文有規定外送平台業者應該遵循個資法的相關規定來確保城市的資訊安全跟系統的穩定保障包括消費者 合作商家還有外送員的權益"},{"start":11995.127,"end":12023.669,"text":"第二項我們特別明確是由交通部他是由產業儲管機關來依個人資料保護法相關規定要求外送平台業者訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫以上說明好請林月琴委員發言我想就叫那個勞動部這邊因為現在現況是這樣就是有些外送員因為他戴著安全帽"},{"start":12024.568,"end":12050.633,"text":"他上次有密錄器或者身上因為他為了保安他自己個身的安全可是到了公寓大廈的時候往往有時候會把大廈很多的資料事實上是拍出去的因為他在送的時候那目前看起來講好像是說那我要保護的事實上是保護的是他要保護的事實上是"},{"start":12052.622,"end":12078.864,"text":"應該講店家也好或者是說外送員可是現在另外有一個是沒有牽扯到的另外一方那我不知道你們覺得你們要怎麼去做考慮因為現在保障了消費者跟合作商家跟外送員的權益可是還有另外一方因為送到大廈管理的管委會的時候常常會碰到是就發現他們整個個資管委名單有些東西是被抄出去的"},{"start":12082.403,"end":12085.248,"text":"好請行政部門回應請陳經惠委員發言"},{"start":12091.116,"end":12111.996,"text":"我也想請教勞動部還有交通部因為我們現在在討論平台的資訊維護安全但是我們現在大家常用的這兩家都是跨國企業所以他的伺服器可能是在新加坡美國或是愛爾蘭可是這裡的主管機關是交通主管機關去做查核"},{"start":12112.617,"end":12130.436,"text":"我不知道我們如何有能力可以去查核到在海外的這些伺服器如果發生這個資訊外洩我們應該不太可能可以管得到外國的伺服器那再來交通部的專長可能也跟資安比較沒有那麼相關"},{"start":12131.397,"end":12143.989,"text":"是不是比較建議我們昭緯的版本因為昭緯的版本是依照數位發展部的共同介入的這樣子版本而不是指由交通部來做管理 謝謝"},{"start":12148.875,"end":12171.713,"text":"請勞動部說 請相關主管機關說明我先說明一下那再請交通部來說明因為這確實就是我們現在對歌詞法保護的現在目前的分工的方式就是用產業別來分工所以這次因為整個平台的產業的主管機關是我們交通部所以依照我們現在一向處理的模式就是由產業主管機關來做管理交通部來"},{"start":12176.929,"end":12180.5,"text":"請訴罰部嗎還是請交通部沒關係請相關機關都一起說明好了"},{"start":12187.154,"end":12208.222,"text":"交通部署做一個說明那有關於這個個資的一個安全維護計畫我們是依照這個產業那會要求這個產業訂定他的一個安全維護的一個相關的一個管理計畫包含資安跟個資那如果有發現這個個資外洩的事件的話會以個資法的一個相關通報事項去辦進行處理 以上"},{"start":12210.363,"end":12230.957,"text":"這個有各自委員會也在有沒有需要補充一下這個因為陳清惠委員剛剛問的是說那比如說有一些國外的資料啦這個你們怎麼管理或是他伺服器這樣放在國外的話你有辦法要求他們嗎各自委員會我們有各自委員會的代表站要不要說明一下"},{"start":12234.907,"end":12253.673,"text":"是因為因為他雖然說可能他的這個伺服器是在海外但是因為他實際上他其實是有在我們我們國內就是在我們境內去從事這樣的一個業務所以其實我國的個資法其實還是可以管得到管得到這個相關的產業的業者"},{"start":12255.513,"end":12284.532,"text":"但是现在因为目前就是我们各自法目前就是还是分管的状况所以可能实际上要怎么去可能去行政监督管理这个业者的部分可能目前就是由这个因为目前行政院这边是协调出来的分工就是由交通部这边来去针对这个外送平台的业者去做行政监督管理所以这个部分可能还是尊重这个交通部这边的这个实务执行的方式"},{"start":12285.506,"end":12312.342,"text":"好請問還有沒有委員有意見好那如果這一條沒有意見的話那本席也不堅持那就依照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人的提案通過接下來進行黃婕委員第16條"},{"start":12319.481,"end":12323.588,"text":"請勞動部說明為什麼沒看到"},{"start":12325.799,"end":12351.971,"text":"主席各位委員有關於荒街委員提案有關於那個演算法的相關的規定要請大家揭示透過演算法監測控制評估的一些事實跟目的運用情形那我們還要求驗證等等這樣一個規定那確實演算法是現在一個企業經營很重要特別是像平台業者"},{"start":12352.971,"end":12373.594,"text":"那對我們來講我們在這個階段的明定跟管理我們先就外送員的權利做很明確的保障讓外送員可得知相關權益的保護那至於他內部的演算法的相關的規定或者演算法的相關的內容還有他真正的營業上的那些的資訊"},{"start":12374.995,"end":12401.454,"text":"那基於一個國際商業保護的一個框架的共識那事實上其他國家目前我們也看也到還沒有這麼強烈的去要求類似這樣的一個業者要去公開他所有的內部的相關的演算的一些資訊跟重要的一些內容所以這個部分我們是不是可以暫時先不要這樣定以上報告好 請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12403.14,"end":12405.764,"text":"如果沒有的話 那請李委員發言"},{"start":12410.78,"end":12438.203,"text":"其實我們都知道說外送平台的奧秘就在於它的演算法那因為我自己也有提案也是有關於這個演算法那只是說這個不是要去知道說這家公司他們的裡面的這個營業的這個奧秘是在哪裡但是這個涉及到說這個平台對於這個外送員"},{"start":12439.524,"end":12460.415,"text":"甚至消費者他們怎麼去拿到這個單這個單的價格是多少那其實都是在這個演算法裡面所以說包含黃婕或是我會特別有針對這個演算法來做一個提案上面的一個修改"},{"start":12461.295,"end":12480.141,"text":"那不過這個是尊重這一個各個委員的意見只是再次強調說這個演算法其實就是整個外送平台裡面最重要的一個機制好請問還有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那本條就不予採納"},{"start":12482.452,"end":12505.762,"text":"接下來換到第17條 勞動部版本第17條是主席各位議員第17條是我們希望外送平臺應該像定期向我們中央組委機關提供外送員的人數 外送服務期間上限期間及報酬等相關的資訊也就是說這次我們在立法的過程當中確實有遇到"},{"start":12506.542,"end":12528.887,"text":"我們有些相關的資訊跟數字我們都很困難的取得那我們想直接明併在這個地方未來我們就可以滾動式的檢討然後針對整個外送平台的運作跟未來的衍生的可能的狀況有更清楚的理解然後再做一些調整以上說明好 請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12532.179,"end":12547.165,"text":"是不是可以請勞動部說明一下所謂這個定期是什麼當然我們常常都用定期 定期可是用這個也是有點模糊啦謝謝委員我們未來會在細則裡面去定"},{"start":12554.817,"end":12572.673,"text":"好請問還有沒有其他委員有相關意見如果沒有的話那本條一樣依照勞動部版本劉建國委員等16人的提案通過接下來是第18條勞動部的第18條是"},{"start":12576.069,"end":12590.674,"text":"主席各位從第18條開始有三個連續有三個條文主要就是我們要求衛生平台去保存相關的紀錄因為這些紀錄對於爭議的處理還有未來可能雙方權利物是非常重要的"},{"start":12591.334,"end":12610.983,"text":"那第18条主要是针对消费者的记录我们包括消费者订购商品时间商品的价格服务费运费包括取消订单的事由跟退费等等那这些的规范呢我们是要求他都要保存然后第8点是其他与前期管有关的这记录就概括式的"},{"start":12611.903,"end":12627.096,"text":"那最後有一項是有關機關得要求調閱前項各款記錄外送平台業者不得拒絕就是將來如果有爭議我們要去理解然後要去調閱他不能拒絕以上說明請問有沒有委員有意見那本席這裡只是覺得最後一項有個有關機關要求調閱前"},{"start":12638.604,"end":12643.977,"text":"前向各款記錄外送平台業者不得拒絕這個有關機關是不是太模糊"},{"start":12644.716,"end":12670.761,"text":"是 這個跟委員報我們的定義就是在這個法裡面的有定的機關才有權中央主管各機關還有地方要裁罰的機關因為他要裁罰他有權利去調那中央主管機關在訂定各種政策跟制度的時候我們也有權利包括我們啊交通部啊經濟部等等那當然未來我們也考慮說如果有擔心的話我們未來在細則上再把它訂清楚也可以"},{"start":12671.361,"end":12691.833,"text":"OK好那請羅廷惠委員發言我想呼應主席說的我們也覺得有關機關這部分要盡量寫清楚啦所以因為避免日後執法的爭議我們是不是還是請勞動部這個在執法的時候有關機關的定義跟調閱的範圍要講清楚定明確能調閱哪些資料都沒有寫清楚"},{"start":12693.646,"end":12714.298,"text":"好那請勞動部再回應一次是謝謝委員我們也認為這個有關機關可能業者也會認為這好像不是很明確那第一個我先表達是這個有關機關一定就是有本法有出現不管是前面各條文的主管中央主管機關乃至於後面的裁罰的地方主管機關"},{"start":12715.439,"end":12737.858,"text":"他們才是這一次可以去調閱的一個權限那為了讓他明確化我們未來也會在細則中去把它寫得比較清楚一點以上好那請問還有沒有委員有相關的意見好那如果沒有意見的話這一條就依照勞動部版本劉建國委員16人的提案通過"},{"start":12742.318,"end":12769.581,"text":"接下來進行第19條主席各位委員第19條主要就是針對合作商家的紀錄也是要保存也是一樣是兩年那包括外送合作契約平台招攬行為等等意思到貨款計算方式還有最後一個也是有個其他與第五款有關之紀錄那最後一項如同前面所稱也是要可以要求調閱不得拒絕以上說明"},{"start":12773.492,"end":12785.057,"text":"好請問有沒有委員有相關的意見好那如果沒有的話那本條文也依照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人提案通過"},{"start":12789.52,"end":12816.893,"text":"接下來第20條第20條主席各位委員 第20條是針對我們衛生員的紀錄的保存包括衛生服務契約 衛生服務期間等等那一樣第7有一個其他與前6款有關之紀錄那最後一項一樣明定有關機關得要求調閱前項各款紀錄衛生平台業者不得拒絕以上好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":12821.857,"end":12830.612,"text":"那如果各位委員沒有意見的話那本條呢也依照勞動部的版本而也就是委員劉建國等16人提案通過接下來進入第21條"},{"start":12836.216,"end":12861.273,"text":"主席各位21條主要是針對外送員萬一發生職業災害的狀況之後應該要趕快來做當地勞工行政機關檢查機構要去通報而且要進行事故的調查分析做成記錄第一個發生死亡災害第二個發生災害之離災人數在一人以上而且需要住院治療者以上說明好請問有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":12865.762,"end":12874.526,"text":"好各位委員如果對於本條次沒有意見的話那本條也依照勞動部的版本委員劉建國等16人提案通過接下來進入第22條"},{"start":12880.286,"end":12900.294,"text":"主席各位第二十二條主要就是要明定我們要平台要對新加入的外送員應該提供一定時數的職業安全衛生交通安全及食品衛生安全其他必要的教育訓練然後第二項我們是明定每一年就應該要求提供外送服務的外送員至少完成一定時數的教育訓練"},{"start":12901.374,"end":12913.668,"text":"那第三項我們就授權包括勞動部 交通部及衛福部分別針對上面那兩項事項去定制有關於時數跟內容以上說明好 請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12915.199,"end":12941.847,"text":"這邊我主張還是要明確規定訓練的時數所以我的版本事實上有列出來各一個小時職業安全訓練跟交通安全訓練跟食品衛生安全訓練這是必要性的而且強調需有一個回訓機制且不得收費或以此作為最低服務期限的一個約定來保障外送員不應接受訓練而損害他的工作彈性可是我覺得要有些定"},{"start":12942.627,"end":12965.523,"text":"定定那個時數而且重點還是要放在交通環境層面的高風險性不是外送員個人的問題所以從交通部數據來看的話事故率已有顯著的下降的確從110年的0.47降到113年的0.25表示訓練室上是有它的一些必要性所在"},{"start":12966.343,"end":12983.016,"text":"所以相關課程的實施我覺得還要考慮到他專業性也應該讓交通目的事業主管機關來去訂定所以目前大交通部既有的機車外送交通安全的指引我覺得已經演明定說要一個小時所以根據"},{"start":12984.238,"end":12997.189,"text":"產工會的說法的話實務上訓練有時候甚至會超越不過在這規範上應該沒有一些什麼爭議啦所以我希望說是不是可以明定時數甚至應該每一年還是要有一定的交通安全的課程"},{"start":13000.442,"end":13026.042,"text":"主席謝謝委員那我們當初也在思考那個時數要不要明定只是我們也跟交通部大家討論了現在時數有時候是會做一些調整甚至交通部會針對違反嚴重的那個時數也會加大他保持一些彈性所以我們這裡把定名就一個小時我覺得業者他就只有一個小時他不會更多所以我們寫一個小時以上他可能就是一個小時"},{"start":13026.963,"end":13054.381,"text":"那授权给我们交通部或卫福部劳动部我们看每年的状况可以做一些调整跟增加这个我们就有个弹性第二个就是有关于那个收取费用这个部分当然是不能收取费用但是如果委员觉得这部分有需要我们将来在定那个时数跟内容的时候我们也可以在里面特别去强调你这个上这个课不能跟任何的外送人在跟他收费这个部分我们当然可以在里面再做处理"},{"start":13055.061,"end":13083.56,"text":"可是另外一個就是說如果你前面如果這樣講那你們後面會配套我沒有兼職可是就像我們在學前教育這一塊會要求安全教育而且每一年要上那你現在前面訓練過後可是我們現在擔心的是因為原來事實上是新加入的要上可是每一年還是要上交通安全課程所以我這個部分我比較堅持說每一年的這一塊一定要再做"},{"start":13085.97,"end":13107.148,"text":"好 請交通部回應交通部說明有關於林委員所垂詢的事項事實上我們在訂定機車外送交通安全指引裡面應該有分為三個項次第一個是職權的訓練第二個是每年要做一個定期的訓練第三個是如果他有發生重大交通安全的違規事項的話他還要到駕訓班進行普通機車的駕訓訓練"},{"start":13112.452,"end":13119.189,"text":"所以相關機制應該在整個一個機車外送交通安全執行裡面應該都有鳴聽 以上說明"},{"start":13121.189,"end":13149.234,"text":"好林月琴委員再發言我覺得以往其他法的經驗大概都最後都不會有一個因為強制有要求的話我覺得所以我比較堅持是在我的版本裡邊這邊提的就是每年要求外送員至少完成一定時數以外可是一定要包含至少一個小時的交通安全課程就是一定要有交通我很怕的是都沒有就是說最後選項不管是過去我們在看"},{"start":13151.674,"end":13168.843,"text":"教育單位的18小時也是這樣為什麼性評跟安全教育有些特別要求在就是每一年都一定要上到所以我比較希望說是不是可以這樣子報告委員我們的第一項寫法是三個都要有"},{"start":13169.463,"end":13191.389,"text":"不是三個混在一起就一個而已沒有我們是三個都是獨立的而且是各自都要有時數所以我們三個部會各自都會定不會說只有上食品安全衛生然後不上交通安全不至於就三個部會都一定會定都一定會有時數而且如果我們定時數肯定都一個小時以上"},{"start":13192.95,"end":13203.367,"text":"我先講的是說後邊每一年因為前面事實上是針對於有比較清楚的是針對新加入的有講這三個後邊就比較沒有這樣子只是講說一定的時數"},{"start":13207.71,"end":13230.407,"text":"跟委員做說明現在劉建國委員版本裡面的第二項就提到每年應要求這個提供外送人至少完成一定時數的教育訓練那這個教育訓練的時數課程裡面就在第三項他說一定的時數跟內容有關事項由各個部會各個主管機關來定制所以應該是都有含在裡面包含那個每一年的教育訓練 對"},{"start":13233.092,"end":13252.164,"text":"過去我們在看其他法條在其他的那個像教育的那個寫這樣的狀況裡邊通常都還是選項不見得就是一定會去納入你們想要的搞不好事實上是我只選今年我給他的是食品安全明年我可能給他的是要求他職業安全那我強調的就是交通這一塊"},{"start":13258.624,"end":13263.43,"text":"跟委員說明一下我們在後面的罰則都有定他沒有辦理這樣訓練會被處分處罰"},{"start":13266.824,"end":13289.21,"text":"講的是都要上訓練可是我的意思說到時候他選項只選某兩類沒有 我現在只強調交通因為交通以外送源現在交通的風險雖然有下降可是他還事實上是一個比較使用機車那我認為他每一年都應該要上交通的相關課程因為我們道路環境事實上是有些變化甚至他"},{"start":13291.731,"end":13315.964,"text":"對違規當然你會去強化可是我覺得這一塊你這樣的寫法我擔心事實上是不會一定會去上這一個課程那這樣跟委員報告我們可不可以未來在說明欄裡面去明確再寫就是三項的領域的課程每一年都有都必須要上具體時數呢當然就交我們後面就來做一個公告"},{"start":13316.804,"end":13336.014,"text":"也就是說我們在說明欄確定再把它寫一遍就是說有外送平台應該針對不管是新進的或者是已經在職的外送員每一年都必須要我們都必須上這三種類型的課程然後具體的時數由三個部會來各自明定我們在說明欄把它再把它寫清楚一點"},{"start":13337.447,"end":13363.013,"text":"那你說明然是不是還是要我比較關切的那個交通這一塊能夠保障在比如你講一定半小時也是上課一小時也是上課那前面剛加入的時候新加入的時候有提到可是後邊的話我不知道到時候會不會有些這樣的選項之後最後還是會造成比較偏頗我比較擔心那我只比較真的是強調交通這一塊"},{"start":13364.847,"end":13391.162,"text":"我想發問一下這個講的這個講習你們是監理站做的講習還是平台辦的講習因為如果平台的講習課程安排沒有很頻繁那等於是新加入的外送員他們必須要一直等候他這個開課的時間他才可以他才可以從事這個職業是監理站的嗎請交通部謝謝"},{"start":13392.894,"end":13413.656,"text":"好 請交通部好 謝謝委員的詮詢那我跟委員做一個報告那這個是指業者去做的一個教育訓練那建立站或者是做建立所的是就是說應該是違反那個大陸交通安全這個處罰條例裡面相關的一個授訓的一個課程所以這兩個是不一樣的事情以上說明"},{"start":13420.14,"end":13449.254,"text":"我們在說明欄我們在說明欄把它再具體一下就我們一定是三個都有上那我們在說明欄再把它再強化一點說明一下好 請問還有沒有委員的意見然後請這一塊未來就是說因為我們在外送員有時候搶單搶快所以未來在那個無論是在教育訓練也好或者相關違規我覺得那個規範還有那個指引守則可以規範得更清楚"},{"start":13450.614,"end":13471.239,"text":"這個是一點那除此之外在剛才21條我簡單的做一下補充平台對於職災的通報的部分我覺得應該更明確化更明確化來去做要求而且在時間點萬一如果有發生嚴重的傷害或死亡的部分我覺得也應該在限期之內一定的時間當然到底是"},{"start":13472.839,"end":13499.944,"text":"一天內 三天內或一個禮拜之內因為後面可能還會牽扯到後面的一些相關的法律的責任等等所以我覺得還沒有還有一些刑事跟民事的責任所以這一塊部分我們可不可以有一個時間點的要求跟限制平台應該要有更多通報的義務跟相關的要求在裡面那至於就是說應該怎麼明確化我沒有意見但是我希望在這一塊可以寫得更清楚"},{"start":13501.744,"end":13512.588,"text":"包括後面因為有交通事故重度或中度的傷害必須住院治療的時候這一點也要去做一些通報在一定的時間之內好以上謝謝好謝謝林燕雪委員"},{"start":13519.727,"end":13533.439,"text":"請勞動部回應一下謝謝委員的提醒我們第21條就是明訂要在8小時之內通報所以我們也理解這個通報是非常非常重要所以我們有明訂在裡面謝謝委員請林淵晴委員發言"},{"start":13541.285,"end":13565.442,"text":"想請老師說明一下就未來訂這個會甚至失之這些都考慮進去嗎因為過往我們看到會是有時候就是平台內部自己的人去講一講尤其大家都覺得我自己非常懂交通或者是我非常懂那個衛生安全那所以我不知道這搭配的你你現在這邊寫的說你們會訂定一些時數"},{"start":13566.843,"end":13592.391,"text":"然後確保外送員的品質可是重點是我們想知道是整個師資時數到課程內涵否則我們以前在去看地方政府在執行的時候也很常是有些師資的師資根本不符合他要上的課程的內容的這樣的一個師資那講授的通常都也不會符合應該要聽課的人的需求"},{"start":13594.369,"end":13614.214,"text":"主席 謝謝林委員那我們想說第二十二條的第三項未來我們在實數內容這個部分我想內容這個部分就是我們也認為就是師資或者上課的主題是什麼我們在裡面來做訂定可不可以再加一個頓號 加師資"},{"start":13626.829,"end":13628.63,"text":"請行政部門回應因為坦白講私知是自為關鍵否則的話那個課上起來就是沒有沒有特別意義是還是希望委員可以給我們在一定的彈性然後因為那個鄉村"},{"start":13658.163,"end":13678.903,"text":"是那個交通部做一個說明那我想我們這個交通安全的實施事實上都有一定的一個規範那因為這個第22條裡面是有包含有包含這個職業安全衛生以及那個食品安全衛生所以建議是不是在第二項裡面就是由分別各個主管機關去分別定職以上請臨約請委員"},{"start":13683.413,"end":13712.195,"text":"困難是什麼因為我覺得加一個師資事實上是確保真的也符合你們在說明欄講的就是說那個品質否則的話這樣子的一個如果拼不對人的話那基本上也沒有辦法幫助現場因為過去我們在看交通部載入老師的訓練裡面也會有這種狀況所以我們還是很希望說那個師資事實上是要被要求的"},{"start":13716.778,"end":13745.318,"text":"那個因為這邊有三項我們確認一下衛福部那就加獅子OK好加獅子好了謝謝頓豪後面獅子好所以這是改的內容嗎請問還有沒有意見對那提醒我剛剛講後面說明來還是要把我們剛剛期待的說清楚好謝謝謝謝委員好那請那個司長是不是也念一次"},{"start":13749.682,"end":13766.889,"text":"第22條的第3項前2項教育訓練制一定時數內容施肢等有關事項有中央主管機關交通主管機關及衛生福利主管機關分別定制以上好那各位委員還有沒有意見"},{"start":13768.26,"end":13780.571,"text":"如果沒有的話那本條呢就照就這個依照劉建國委員的提案然後各位還有那個林月琴委員的修正動議然後仲裁各位委員的意見修正通過接下來進到23條"},{"start":13789.141,"end":13805.04,"text":"第二十三條我們主要就是明定如果外送員在提供外送服務的時候因為違反交通主管決定有重大影響交通安全的行為的時候那外送平台業者應該依通知改善期內完成實施外送員的運送安全講習"},{"start":13806.241,"end":13833.862,"text":"如果在完成講習之前的外送平台不得使其提供外送服務主要的目的我們就是希望外送員因為有重大的違規他應該來上這樣一個課保障他的安全保障擁護人的安全所以我們就明定這個條文那部分委員有提到是說直接訂幾個月內完成或幾個小時那我們是擔心這個小時時數又是太固定了未來會沒有彈性"},{"start":13834.702,"end":13848.772,"text":"還有幾個月內我覺得也怕是比較未來沒有辦法做一個彈性的調整所以這個部分我們是不是就不要在這裡定明確的時數還有定明確的那個日期以上說明好請問還有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":13863.018,"end":13882.906,"text":"如果委員們沒有意見的話那這條就依照勞動部版本也就是劉建國委員的第23條的提案通過接下來進入第四章第四章的章名發責"},{"start":13886.647,"end":13913.297,"text":"有關於委員廖偉祥二十人提案第六章罰則那跟委員劉建國第16條16人提案第四章罰則那我們因為我們現在進到第四章了所以意思一樣可能就我們用第四章好那有沒有委員有意見沒有那就依照依照勞動部版本劉建國委員的提案通過"},{"start":13917.062,"end":13941.663,"text":"接下來第24條有關於 主席各位 有關法則的部分我這裡來做個說明 關於審查民眾黨團第18條等案 建議與紅委員等21人提案第24條 第23條等案並同審查 以上建議請示委員是否同意"},{"start":13946.599,"end":13948.971,"text":"哪個是三角"},{"start":13955.578,"end":13977.378,"text":"我再念一遍因為我們的罰則那因為我們的立法院裡面的排案的順序我們翻開第115頁然後從那邊開始就是有關於罰則的部分那我們就要來並同來審罰則的部分所以我們這裡有一個部分要先確認就是有關於審查民眾黨團第18條等案"},{"start":13979.86,"end":14004.594,"text":"建議與航空委員就航空委員等21年提案的第24條第23條等案並同審查因為都是罰則我們是不是就直接把它併在一起審查就是也就是現在劉建國委員的24條和25條那因為其他委員還有另外分別提不同的條次那我們就一起併在一起審查那就請24條先請那個司長先說明一下"},{"start":14006.935,"end":14025.344,"text":"主席各位我們這次在設計罰則的時候我們有兩個思考第一個思考我們是認為要一案一罰我們先說明一下因為每一個衛送員所遇到的違反的情形或許是一樣但是每一位是個獨立的裁罰的一個"},{"start":14026.484,"end":14052.016,"text":"對象所以是一案一法第二個我們在裁罰上有包括中央主管機關有包括地方政府所以我們都有分別的去名列那我簡單的說明一下我們的處罰的跟處罰的罰則第一個直轄市跟縣市主管機關的部分是處罰第11條的離線權跟第15條在天然災害因停業結果他還是讓他營業這個部分的罰則我們是定10萬到50萬"},{"start":14053.937,"end":14081.133,"text":"第二個部分交通部的地方呢就是由二三條外送員為完成道路交通安全講習結果呢平台還是讓他去做外送服務好這部分是裁罰10到50萬然後第三個就是本部勞動部跟自家縣市政府裁罰呢是主要是21條沒有在期間內通報重大職災實施事故調查分析及做成記錄的規定這部分我們裁罰是3萬到30萬"},{"start":14083.354,"end":14107.272,"text":"那此外主管機關或目的事業主管機關包括我們跟地方政府可以裁罰包括第一個未送平台業者拒絕妨礙主管機關監督檢查跟調閱紀錄這個我們罰3萬到15萬那另外第5條第2項到第5項有關於報酬過低未給付報酬明細及項目內容未符合法令要求未保存"},{"start":14108.493,"end":14135.635,"text":"達到我們要求的年限的5年的時候會罰2萬到10萬那第8條第3項沒有發給外送人經濟補償第9條沒有建立申訴制度沒有公開揭示沒有成立獨立的處理小組然後沒有召開定期召開會議或小組成員未符合規定的部分我們是都罰2萬到10萬此外第10條沒有投保商業保險就讓外送人提供外送服務"},{"start":14136.636,"end":14157.375,"text":"而且你沒有隨便把它停保我們也是處罰2萬到10萬那此外包括第4條第5項契約成立期日內為給外送員的收值的一個契約職災保險的一個保險契約要給他提供對方然後契約成立期日內沒有給合作商家外送合作契約的收值聯"},{"start":14158.456,"end":14176.618,"text":"然後此外18 19 20有關消費者的紀錄保存合作上下紀錄保證外送員的其他紀錄保存這些我們有個叫通知改善的一個設計然後呢如果他還是不改善我們處罰2萬到10萬那此外22條第1項第2項有關於外送員的訓練他沒有讓他上課跟訓練"},{"start":14177.859,"end":14202.945,"text":"這時候如果通知改善沒有的話一樣罰2萬到10萬那此外還有外送員的新進的慈安因為慈安我們這有特別的慈安法有明訂所以我們這個部分就是罰這個3萬到30萬以上說明請問有沒有委員有意見請問各位委員有沒有意見第5條我們修正我們來念一下那個這個這個"},{"start":14204.458,"end":14222.655,"text":"跟主席報告我們因為前面條子有變了所以我們有幾個文字稍微再修正一下就是其中的第5條的第1項跟第3項就我們要做個修正有沒有就有嗎"},{"start":14277.91,"end":14293.253,"text":"好那這個司長要不要再念一次有關於再往上一點先讓我念一下有關第24條的修正來我問一下"},{"start":14296.421,"end":14313.829,"text":"再來就是有關違反第22條違反第5條第1項跟第3項至第5項第8條第3項第9條或第10條的規定我們把今天剛剛前面針對報酬部分做那個對照的調整以上說明好請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":14319.639,"end":14333.742,"text":"那個我問一下就是針對那個業者如果規避你們的那個檢查這一項你們這個調到那邊是處罰那個3萬到15萬3萬到30萬拒絕妨礙沒有拒絕3萬到15萬拒絕跟妨礙主管機關問題上監督3萬到15萬這一項有沒有按次連續處罰"},{"start":14347.847,"end":14372.767,"text":"就是他如果一再拒絕你們有沒有按次連續處罰沒有 你們沒有這樣寫我們通常要去看他不給我 我罰了我下次再去一次他又再拒絕我 我再罰都沒有 這個我們都可以繼續我不可能今天我跟你要你不理我 我就不去找你了我知道 就是有的法條會寫得比較你知道嗎 就是說"},{"start":14374.148,"end":14395.917,"text":"如果你很重視這一條的話得按次連續處罰或加重處罰你知道就是也讓業者知道說主管機關你這個就是不得拒絕因為坦白講你的那個罰的金額也不是很高對於他的高業營業來講其實有一點如果你只是罰了三萬不痛不癢"},{"start":14396.917,"end":14418.545,"text":"你可能在那邊耗很久他不教不給看就是不這樣子我不知道你們有沒有考慮過這樣的情況主席跟委員說明一下那個就是在我們特別在第25條有個叫名譽法我們除了是要公佈名稱跟負責人姓名跟處罰的相關的規範之外我們這裡有特別明定限期令期改善 屆期會改善 按次處罰25條對25條對25條"},{"start":14426.667,"end":14430.08,"text":"好 那還有沒有委員的意見"},{"start":14439.967,"end":14462.795,"text":"主席剛剛那個前面第9條是保留的所以這邊他那個這邊提到第9條或第10條規定這邊可能要稍微保留一下連動前面第9條因為還沒有訂那個內容還沒有訂剛剛是說申訴制度剛剛其實那個小組的部分因為後來勞動部要加平台業者那早上有蠻多討論的後來是喊"},{"start":14465.694,"end":14483.418,"text":"和保留所以如果前面有保留這邊不能過就是要先緩一下那所以這條先保留24條先保留然後等一下第二輪回來討論把第9條理完之後再回來好不好好主席不好意思"},{"start":14488.15,"end":14499.14,"text":"請羅廷文委員發言因為討論到第9條現在在保留那剛剛也有跟經濟部再次提醒14條的部分是有關於店家被惡意的抽成"},{"start":14499.881,"end":14518.42,"text":"那經濟部剛剛我也有附帶決議就是希望說他在這個訂定契約的時候呢範本的時候要保障這個不要被大勢的剝奪抽成然後還有這個部分有被納入到罰則嗎因為我看到只有14條之二劉建國的版本是14"},{"start":14529.819,"end":14543.429,"text":"違反第14條第三項這部分會不會有不夠完善經濟部經濟部回應經濟部報告"},{"start":14549.324,"end":14575.339,"text":"回應羅委員第14條第三項指的是他應該在7日內將書面或電子契約給商家合作商家收值那剛剛提到的這個抽成的這個金額他是會定在契約範本裡面那契約範本剛剛有提到如果平台有違反契約內容比如說他收費或任意調動金額的話"},{"start":14578.061,"end":14605.395,"text":"後續會有一個設計爭議處理機制會透過爭議處理機制來解決 以上補充因為爭議處理機制有沒有法法則也會定在那邊嗎還是只是機制而已那抽完成然後爭議處理機制萬一他不改善他如果爭議處理機制他違反那個契約那就是契約就"},{"start":14609.461,"end":14632.177,"text":"我知道有機制就是說機制完以後他如果不改善抽成還是繼續抽那那個合約就會無效合約然後就變成要打民事就是走合約沒有履行就走合約的爭議處理了"},{"start":14633.089,"end":14639.538,"text":"就是沒有罰則店家我一個便當店去打民事訴訟會不會有點辛苦"},{"start":14641.339,"end":14668.356,"text":"雙方他是落在合約文字裡面去規範那每一個店家跟平台他合作的他內容都不一樣抽成的比例他的那個費用的計算支付的方式就是說如果你現在只有說7日內要提供電子或書面的契約對 你只有說你要提供啊但是你並沒有跟他講說你不照處理機制小組最後的決議來處理的話你會怎麼樣啊"},{"start":14669.249,"end":14697.169,"text":"那這樣是不是這裡就不夠完善這意思應該行政機關可以罰還嗎可是你沒有定罰錢啊有啊上面行政主管機關處新台幣兩萬這個沒有他是第三項第三項是你7日內要繳交資料你不繳交資料我就罰你錢可是他並沒有說你7日內要改善啊啊你如果不照處理機制小組改善的話我要罰折啊那這樣等於是我可以"},{"start":14703.255,"end":14722.047,"text":"是不是把他也納入會比較好那個主席我也支持因為我們也常收到這樣的呈現因為平台他非常的有限很容易就講好然後對那些個別的店家非常的不利行政部門是不是也把這個文字加上去還是你們說明一下第三條嘛對不對"},{"start":14728.096,"end":14731.227,"text":"反正我都以劉建國委員的版本就是上面這個上面這裡"},{"start":14735.342,"end":14762.5,"text":"那是不是先保留讓那個經濟部去研究一下這是24條嘛對不對對所以剛剛有說24條先保留了對但是你這個問題先提出來請你們等一下第二輪回來的時候是不是提出修正的或是說明我們確認一下裁罰的那個好沒問題那因為剛剛有說24條因為前面的還有保留的條文所以24條現在就先保留等一下第二輪回來討論接下來25條"},{"start":14765.357,"end":14788.813,"text":"主席各位委員25條主要就是我們要公佈違法的姓名那包括負責人姓名跟處分日期跟罰款金額等等而且我們有限期定期改善 屆期會改善我們就會按次連續處罰好好 針對這一條25條有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":14792.383,"end":14806.698,"text":"沒有意見沒有意見的話那就按照勞動部的版本也就是劉建國委員等16人提案通過再來是第5張的張明第5張張明請勞動部說明我們就對"},{"start":14821.218,"end":14844.929,"text":"有關於負責的部分第5張負責我們就建議採劉建國委員等事論提案增訂一個第5張負責那針對其他的幾個條文予以明定好有沒有委員有意見沒有好那就那就照提案通過接下來第26條"},{"start":14847.322,"end":14867.06,"text":"主席各位議員第二十條我們主要明定是考量到說如果外送平台業者把外送服務委託於第三人譬如說委託給一個物流公司然後再用他物流公司跟外送員成立外送服務契約那這個情形之下好這個法我們就擔心可能沒有辦法對他有做過一個"},{"start":14868.061,"end":14895.033,"text":"保護跟保障所以呢我們這裡就明定如果他是委託第三人他其實還是適用本法針對那個相關第三人的規定權限我們都還是要給他做個明文的規範那他就沒有辦法去用委託第三人的方式去規定規避本法那前上第三人與外中員如果是雇用關係當然還是回到我們第一條規定去辦理以上好有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":14898.442,"end":14908.913,"text":"好如果各位委員沒有意見的話那本條就照勞動部版本委員劉建國等16人的第26條提案通過再來第27條"},{"start":14911.683,"end":14927.78,"text":"主席各位27條是我們本法要讓更周延不好意思還有中間還有個第7章的負責就是本席的第7章的章名主席跟各位報告我們前面把負責已經放在前面了所以這個地方"},{"start":14929.221,"end":14954.34,"text":"那沒有問題那就不予採納接下來是第27條是主席跟委員第27條主要是為了本法能夠順利實施好那我們希望有定個細則讓這個細則做比較詳細的規範所以在27條我們明定中央機關會商中央目的事業主管機關來定有關的這個有不這個法的事情細則以上好請問有沒有委員的意見沒有沒有"},{"start":14957.025,"end":14977.484,"text":"沒有好那就照案通過照這個勞動部版本以及劉建國委員等16人提案通過接下來最後一條28條主席各位第28條我們是考量這個要有一段時間來籌備相關的執法跟細則所以我們希望在公佈後6個月內來實施以上"},{"start":14980.21,"end":15002.544,"text":"來請王一鳴委員這部法這個大家也很期待了那你們還要在六個月有需要這麼緩慢嗎事實上我們剛母法通過的需要執法的沒那麼多有哪幾條沒有喔有嗎很多嗎委員說明一下第一個細則我們有很多東西要做一個詳細的規範"},{"start":15007.762,"end":15026.509,"text":"那第二個我們也考量到你現在的指引跟各縣市已經通過的都沒有嗎不是不夠都不夠我們總共我把執法念一下有好幾個部會的定型化契約印記載不印記載事項還有我們的那個契約範本"},{"start":15027.589,"end":15041.886,"text":"那還包括我們團顯相關的一些規範然後還有合作商家的契約等等還有我們訓練的時數最重要還有細則還有一點要跟委員報告目前平台他們計算報酬的方式跟我們現在規定的是不一樣"},{"start":15042.927,"end":15062.437,"text":"他這套程序的要去改變這樣的一個設計的程式還要做很多的測試因為你在上路的不能讓他外送員用這個計算方式產生很大的衝突那他必須從頭設計一套符合我們法律規定的報酬計算方式"},{"start":15063.237,"end":15081.172,"text":"那個需要一段很長的時間的測試那要有安全性不就1.25倍基本45嗎因為我們對他們現在是用里程我們現在是改成用時間而且我們還有一個保底然後這個部分我們恐怕要給他一點時間周延的來去規劃"},{"start":15082.914,"end":15103.887,"text":"一定要讓商務完全都沒有問題因為他還要測試可能在鄉村在都市你都要去做很多的測試才能夠比較明確所以讓我們有半年時間去做一些調試跟處理所以你們最快就是一定要六個月一定要六個月才整個作業都可以完整我們要讓完整正式商務都能夠都穩定"},{"start":15110.774,"end":15119.302,"text":"所以什麼時候大概如果要6個月的話有沒有可能本席想請教一下有沒有可能是2026年的5月1號剛好這個勞動節有沒有可能那個跟"},{"start":15128.516,"end":15146.088,"text":"跟委員說明這是真的是一部新的法它並不是部分條文修正或者是單一條文修正它是一部新的法所以很多相關的細則執法包括系統都需要重新訂定我們的確認為其實"},{"start":15150.151,"end":15177.927,"text":"大家的利益良善然後其實真的給相關的準備多一點的空間更細緻不要倉促其實我們覺得反而更好因為這真的是一部這麼大的新的法規所以我們還是希望有六個月的時間好請問有沒有委員有其他的意見好沒有的話那就本條依照勞動部的版本和意見跟這個委員劉建國等16人的提案通過"},{"start":15179.79,"end":15201.937,"text":"好那現在已經走完第一輪了那第二輪剩下幾條一個題目然後一個酒你們要各位要休息一下嗎行政部門也是也是蠻辛苦的那我們休息10分鐘好不好然後那個便當可以發去邊吃了那等一下邊討論可以邊吃"},{"start":15208.49,"end":15209.471,"text":"5條跟附帶決議 剩5條和附帶決議"},{"start":15236.817,"end":15236.937,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":15260.823,"end":15264.185,"text":"但現在平台就很強勢平台就很強勢了"},{"start":15269.395,"end":15270.776,"text":"就完全沒有談判的空間"},{"start":15296.058,"end":15299.38,"text":"你也可以不要跟他簽約但事務上變成是有簽約的"},{"start":15326.858,"end":15353.253,"text":"因為他們有點大鯨魚跟小蝦米所以當大鯨魚要跟你談判的跟小蝦米完全沒有任何去談判的空間你只能簽一下不平等條 懂我意思嗎就是說當他 他是含淚去簽因為如果沒有這樣他也很難生存但是他簽了約之後他又是要有點帶培訓被剝削了他才可以處理這件事情的話他就會被剝削嘛 那反正我們的監獄"},{"start":15356.393,"end":15382.331,"text":"應該在上面寫說平台若有違約之情勢不予行我要罰我沒有去看到內容可以罰怎麼樣但是你會去騙人你不可以有虛偽啊或者是片面改啊導致違約若有違約之情勢不改進我來罰"},{"start":15384.212,"end":15402.928,"text":"就是諸外機關可能還是要扮演適度的維護某種的公平正某種公平角色你不是介入很多細節但是如果他有違反情勢嚴重的就是有點像剛剛條文有些不是會說他不能規避檢查或什麼嗎"},{"start":15403.709,"end":15410.793,"text":"那在你們處理平台跟商家的範本裡面若有什麼什麼情況 主管機關的明確違約之情況對"},{"start":15426.961,"end":15438.336,"text":"你今天沒有這麼盡量掛勢就是剛剛這很關鍵就是剛剛我們提到就是平台要負擔什麼樣的違約它違約它對商家要負擔什麼樣的對相對應的發財或怎麼樣那他們有的爭議"},{"start":15444.224,"end":15459.371,"text":"商家就可以拿著這一本文章司法的稿件來請求有司法去判斷因為我們經濟部在這個過程等待的過程多應該等待的過程應該要求最好這樣的話應該等那個過程當中應該要求維持原期不能維持"},{"start":15464.753,"end":15472.118,"text":"你當中要維持原契約啊保證商家還可以繼續透過平台添單有點像他跟外送的關係你不得任意去終止"},{"start":15495.814,"end":15510.294,"text":"當然我還是最希望你能夠直接的去裁罰這個是最直接的保護裁罰罰金是給政府的 又不是對合作商家沒有幫忙我知道我知道 但他因為怕被裁罰嘛那他就會有一點惡俗說好 那我不要這樣管"},{"start":15511.684,"end":15532.243,"text":"然後他在告你真的我今天我是留眠我去告他是靠我的名列損失然後我去告回來那個是要靠我去告回來的不能靠你可是你應該是介入的是他一直不斷的騙面然後有點食物上的上對下然後委約的部分你要去採訪他搜尋一些"},{"start":15534.446,"end":15545.057,"text":"就是你的行政權也要給他們就是違反行為的時候要有點壓力不能是覺得說好像不關政府的事這個是純私人其實沒有到這樣今天為什麼要特別訂這個法院"},{"start":15598.62,"end":15601.797,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":16135.316,"end":16147.241,"text":"不知道我在現場我在現場"},{"start":16158.427,"end":16183.117,"text":"OK 當您繼續保留後再討論但勞動部不同意就要保留 勞動部會不同意就要保留就保留後再討論就保留後再討論"},{"start":16195.978,"end":16213.545,"text":"還有不到五秒鐘"},{"start":16252.659,"end":16252.679,"text":"好繼續開會"},{"start":16257.119,"end":16283.455,"text":"那現在回來處理第二輪喔這個保留條文現在是從名稱開始法案名稱來一樣就是回到法案名稱的討論喔那以現在勞動部的部板他是以外送員權益保障及外送平台管理法為名稱"},{"start":16285.632,"end":16312.081,"text":"那本席提的是外送平台管理暨從業人員及合作商家權益保障法那這個請各位委員是不是勞動部還需要再說明一次嗎應該可能有委員不在你們再講一次好了好不好不是我說昨天審明稱的時候了那就那就看有沒有意見了"},{"start":16313.869,"end":16329.505,"text":"第一个是我们还是是希望可以把外送人的权益摆在前面那在委员的版本里面基本上会写外送从业人员但我们觉得外送从业人员范围含害的更广包括平台的行政的人员包括"},{"start":16330.787,"end":16345.664,"text":"這個很多我們認為都不是很適合所以還是希望是外送人權益保障可能放在前面然後外送平台管理放後面所以我們還是希望這個法案的名稱用現在的這個名稱那希望委員可以支持"},{"start":16347.444,"end":16368.304,"text":"這裡我稍微說明一下這個本席覺得從業人員可以改成外送員可是譬如說外送平台管理及外送員及合作商家權益保障法我覺得還是一樣就是說我的概念上也跟勞動部溝通概念上就是的確這個法是跨各個部會"},{"start":16370.16,"end":16389.696,"text":"消費者的問題是因為消費者消積法而且目前的狀況是說目前狀況是說當初我們在公聽會的時候勞動部也說也知道也說過說在整個關係鏈裡面可能這個消費者算是比較稍微強勢的一方相對來講就是在整個關係鏈裡好那但是"},{"start":16390.851,"end":16400.857,"text":"我覺得大家可以討論啦也請您看各位委員的意見請召委就直接就你的議題問一下大家有沒有意見我們有意見我們有意見他們有意見請勞動部說明對"},{"start":16406.505,"end":16423.446,"text":"因为就像在版本里面有一个外送平台管理的这个专章其实消费者很多包消费者平台的也是在这个范畴里面所以我们认为我们还是希望是用外送员权益保障及外送平台管理法"},{"start":16426.888,"end":16451.844,"text":"主席我可不可以再報告一下因為這個法真正的跟商家的條文就有兩條一個就是要訂定相關的權利義務的契約範本一個就是後面要保存那我們就有點擔心這個法主軸都是在保障外送員那如果把這個放在下面把那個商家放在上面有點有失去一點橫平性"},{"start":16452.864,"end":16471.778,"text":"因為整個法真的沒有很多著墨在商家是尊重市場機制那我怕外界會查閱說那既然是商家的一個保障那裡面的條文比較缺少甚至會覺得說是不是不是很足夠所以我也擔心這件事情"},{"start":16475.621,"end":16491.661,"text":"謝謝主席其實針對我們大家都很清楚就外送員的權益的問題其實就是你外送平台如果管理的好的話他基本上外送員權益就能獲得保障所以我認為外送平台管理法放在前面那進而後面我們當然保障外送員的權益"},{"start":16492.582,"end":16511.439,"text":"這樣子來做的話我覺得才能獲得根本的改善因為我們都很清楚現在的問題其實不是我們想要外送員的權益好就會好如果外送平台這個管理沒辦法做到到位的話其實也做不到所以本身還是支持就是我們這個召委的這個這個法案名稱是廖召委的法案名稱謝謝"},{"start":16516.429,"end":16537.164,"text":"這個部分也是還是重新再講一下就是說也可以請勞動部再思考一下的確法裡面很多是以外送員為權益這個法和這個這個出發點也是因為從有這個外送經濟開始然後有這麼多的外送員開始去推動這個法案沒有錯但是為什麼名稱"},{"start":16538.663,"end":16564.867,"text":"需要納入是因為其實剛剛休息的時間或是在審查的過程中大家也可以看到後面的法條雖然說法條不多但不多的原因是因為現在先用授權的方式因為要講到非常細的情況之下可能會沒有辦法先把這個架構框出來所以當初勞動部的想法是說當然是依外送員的權益開始推動可是裡面有很多你是先用授權的方式出去"},{"start":16565.427,"end":16588.294,"text":"那難保未來會不會有其他的狀況出現或者是其他的條件要出現那之所以要把他們納入進來是因為讓所有的立法機關或是讓這個大家看到這個法的時候就像你們的說明一樣你們要權衡各方的利害關係這也就是為什麼第一昨天在審理的時候王玉民委員說你們的說明講得非常的好"},{"start":16589.074,"end":16612.19,"text":"是因為你們要權衡各方的關係而且我也相信這個勞動部的立場雖然是以這個外送員為一個權衡權益為最優先但是你們在考量的過程當中你們也不斷的在強調你們要各方利益的平衡發展包含甚至你們在申訴管道的時候也都有思考到這些東西那我覺得這個點就是未來你"},{"start":16613.01,"end":16632.922,"text":"在進化在滾動調整這個修法的時候也要去思考的而不會是就是可能只偏重哪一個部分這是本席希望說可不可以讓他涵蓋的範圍或是讓大家思考的方有更廣泛的原因讓大家去權衡這個利益我的建議那也請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":16634.063,"end":16651.031,"text":"對 昨天的討論我特別稱讚這個勞動部你們在第一條的這個立法目的寫得非常好的確我們今天為什麼要討論這部分就是因為是從外送平台產業發展開始的才有外送員"},{"start":16652.051,"end":16672.034,"text":"老實講沒有外送平台這個產業就沒有外送員這個行業所以在這樣的情況底下你是為了管理這個外送平台所以你是因應了外送平台產業的發展你才開始要來橫評外送員消費者合作商家與外送平台業者的各方權利義務關係"},{"start":16673.596,"end":16689.652,"text":"就是你那個主體就是是因為從外送平台這個產業的發展開始起來的你才因此有了這個產業有外送源所以我們要管理的今天坦白講我昨天也講過了就是說如果外送平台管理的好"},{"start":16690.473,"end":16716.451,"text":"那外送員的權益就可以獲得好的保障他的那個邏輯應該是這樣子的外送員不會憑空出來你如果沒有今天這個外送平台的這個產業發展起來也沒有這個行業就是那個什麼先什麼後就是這個可能在邏輯上面我們先前提出來版本的就是這樣的一個邏輯所以就是我們剛剛提了很多法條包括法則什麼"},{"start":16717.051,"end":16742.89,"text":"很多其實坦白講都是針對外送平台他應盡的一些權利義務就是來寫的所以那個主席我建議如果勞動部還是有意見的話我們就保留你再來召開召來寫上好請陳昭智委員發言我是想在場的各位各位委員大家既然都沒有不同意見啊我就想就按照廖教偉的版本通過沒有人不同意見勞動部"},{"start":16748.584,"end":16756.107,"text":"我們還是希望讓外送員的權益保障因為這是有勞動部主管的法規我覺得外送員權利保障這部分應該放在前面所以這個勞動部非常堅持就是沒有辦法調整和溝通我們還是認為這樣比較正確對好那因為在座的委員是同意的"},{"start":16781.8,"end":16798.346,"text":"請問對所以還是要這條還是要保留嗎要保留送協商嗎我建議那就協商吧協商好那這條就保留送協商那接下來第一條"},{"start":16809.777,"end":16830.644,"text":"現在這個第一條就是剛剛昨天也在討論的那第三項就是第三段有加入合作商家和消費者之權益這個勞動部他們沒有意見那現在就是說第一段的紅字的部分是不是請這個各位委員表示意見還有勞動部回應"},{"start":16834.727,"end":16851.175,"text":"這個就是我昨天在強調的我認為這段文字寫得很棒就是說把那個開宗明義第一條就是我們為什麼要訂這個法開宗明義講得非常的清晰所以我很欣賞這段文字我是主張應該要放入請羅廷維委員發言我非常認同這個玉敏委員說的我們都支持這個部分"},{"start":16862.904,"end":16878.087,"text":"是啊是啊好那請問勞動部同不同意這個你們認為這樣的修法有沒有意見我覺得可以就跟著張明一起保留跟著法案名稱一起保留保留要講原因耶"},{"start":16892.641,"end":16919.919,"text":"第一个是那个部长你们自己产出的文字啊就是你们自己的文字你自己保留你要讲个你反对的理由吧不要乱喊好不好跟委员说明第一个我们认为我们原本产出的文字是在第一条的第一箱那是我们产出的文字可是上面现在委员要列的文字我们认为他比较适合放在说明栏里面他还是在但是他在说明栏里面"},{"start":16925.234,"end":16953.525,"text":"對 所以我們認為在條文的文字上面還是以一個比較精煉的然後把開宗明義的把這事情給講清楚對 所以我們是覺得是好 請羅天惠委員發言我尊重那個部長的說法但是這個法條不精煉也不會怎麼樣但我覺得開宗明義的把這件事情說好他說他想精煉一點"},{"start":16955.169,"end":16979.326,"text":"他覺得多三行不精煉那我尊重嘛但是我認為不精煉並不會影響到整部法案而且這個是開宗明義的說讓我們能夠知道是如果你一開始不了解這個法案你一來看第一條就知道原來是因為這樣你就會想要很簡單的馬上進入狀況所以我覺得就是是不是我們節省時間請召委就直接詢問各委員各委員都同意的話是我們就直接通過"},{"start":16985.308,"end":17012.506,"text":"跟各位委員說明就是第一個是比方說我們認為在這個第一條裡面可不可以休息我覺得可以討論一下這個條文但是我們認為原本的第一項其實就能夠涵快我們其實這個法律裡面要做的很多重要的工作就是保障外送員權益管理外送平台維護消費者及合作商家權益基本上這整部法規裡面在做的就是這件事情其實"},{"start":17014.448,"end":17031.226,"text":"請教一下部長就是多了這三行的話會對這一個法對就這三條這三條對請問一下會對於這個把這個第一條會有什麼樣子的影響是不是可以請部長先讓我們知道一下沒有影響"},{"start":17038.993,"end":17067.225,"text":"不是我們那個跟文說明不是反而是這個內容一樣寫在我們的說明欄裡面不然我覺得我們可以來調一下文字好不好頂多昨天你們也有提到說橫屏那兩個字不適宜放在那裡第一個是我覺得我們橫屏然後第二個是我們還是希望能夠讓外送員的保障是放在這個敘述裡面的最前面"},{"start":17073.134,"end":17102.103,"text":"你說你昨天是說橫屏改成維護啦就是讓保護外送員的權益還是放在最前面對啊 也事實證明是平台發展現在有平台發展才會有外送員消費者合作廠商的出現啊我們有說錯嗎還是先有外送員才會有平台的你們秀一下是不是好"},{"start":17103.878,"end":17105.026,"text":"好 你們休息一下 調整一下"},{"start":17109.397,"end":17136.656,"text":"部長我是覺得還是要提醒一下我覺得有些時候可能可以把那個放放大一點看因為我知道你在討論這一條的時候你有提到西班牙歧視法案等等的你說很多地方是以這個歧視為出發但是我本席也要提醒你們你們中間一直講到橫平才是永續發展和產業發展最好的那你提到西班牙歧視法案其實他在後來的結果是不好的他其實導致的後果並沒有是非常"},{"start":17138.097,"end":17161.044,"text":"橫貧的狀況好那其實最終受害的也是外送員的權益在西班牙的歧視法案裡面所以我我是希望勞動部也可以由行政機關你們主管機關我知道那我們也本期也很肯定你們很用心的提出相關的法案但我認為這個思維可以請你們好好思考一下畢竟你們在條文也都說過了所以以上"},{"start":17162.345,"end":17191.341,"text":"希望你們修出來文字大家滿意就通過第9條的部分呢那我們這條就等那個勞動部修正內容那我們先我們先到第9條第9條早上還有爭議的就是後來你們把平台業者也加進來了本來你們就是公會代表至少一人那你們後來又加了一個平台業者你們現在是這一個版本是平台業者拿掉對不對"},{"start":17193.021,"end":17206.955,"text":"好請市長說明主席各位這個條文我們剛剛會議後也在討論那我們也同意委員的建議就是我們把那個平台代表藝人我們就不放進去了"},{"start":17207.679,"end":17233.367,"text":"那但是我們也會在說明欄寫是說業者是正義人當事人的一方啦當然可以練習說明啦對對對對對我們也讓平台業者也理解說他對因為他被申訴方他有他還是有義務要到現場來說明為什麼對對對好這樣的修正很那現在文資修正在哪裡修正好了嗎對他就把平台業者拿掉他找那請請市長再宣讀一次"},{"start":17238.49,"end":17266.293,"text":"我們是最後第二項我們本來是第一項是人數不得低於三人其中公會代表至少一人本來有一句話是有平台業者然後那個地方我們把它刪除了其他的今天上午剛剛有確定了我們就都沒問題好請問各位委員有沒有意見好請羅天惠委員發言最後再提醒就是說平台業者列席說明也要包括當事者列席說明"},{"start":17267.885,"end":17292.433,"text":"這個確定了謝謝好那這條還有沒有委員有意見如果沒有意見的話那本條就依照佈板還有劉建國委員提案那委員王育敏修正動議仲裁各委員意見修正通過好那民眾黨的第6條本來是保留因為他跟第13條一起討論那第13條已經通過所以這裡就不用討論那再來呢"},{"start":17295.131,"end":17322.154,"text":"因為第9條好了所以後面24條的部分就可以如果各位委員我們到24條對請剛剛是玉米委員是因為24條是因為第9條沒有通過嗎現在通過這個部分就完成了現在第二個就是我要再請經濟部說明剛剛我所提到的有關於這一個合作廠商合作店家有被"},{"start":17323.581,"end":17343.669,"text":"片面的更改契約然後還有抽成跟原本所訂定的是不一樣的時候我們該怎麼樣去保障合作店家你們要用什麼樣的方式因為現在只有第14條第三項這個是不繳交資料才會罰那如果片面違約不改善怎麼處理請說"},{"start":17352.266,"end":17368.099,"text":"請經濟部回應好謝謝主席經濟部回應羅委員的提醒有關第14條第三項那個是指經濟部有爭議的時候經濟部要去跟平台調閱資料平台不提供的話經濟部有立場去直接開罰他這個沒有問題"},{"start":17370.101,"end":17386.635,"text":"至於第二項所提到的一些商家跟平台之間的權利義務我們會在未來的合作契約範本裡面經濟部會站在合作商家的角度會盡量去保障合作商家跟平台之間權利義務的關係"},{"start":17388.877,"end":17413.784,"text":"那至於有糾紛發生的時候我們經濟部的立場說因為這是一個商業行為民間的合約我們在文字裡面盡量從商家的角度去思考說他們權益受損的時候平台要負擔的義務責任那定好之後如果爭議發生我們是建議就是循司法的途徑去解決雙方彼此的爭議以上補充"},{"start":17414.665,"end":17438.407,"text":"我們要特別提醒經濟部就是說現在平台業者跟商家的關係有些商家他其實真的是小商家有點大鯨魚跟小蝦米就是他的那個權利是蠻不對等的所以你的契約就很重要你的契約就是要去確保就是在商家的權益部分就是經由這部法營修法通過也授權讓你們去訂定那個契約"},{"start":17439.068,"end":17456.433,"text":"那就是要很確保這個商家的權益不會任意就像之前外送也不會任意被這個平台就是剝削或者是他的任意性很高我想這個契約精神就是要去保障商家的權益所以那個相關的內容你們在研議的時候我希望經濟部"},{"start":17457.373,"end":17485.558,"text":"要多花点时间那如果可以的话可以听取一些商家他们觉得在现行有哪些是相对极度不平等的可以透过契约的方式他可以获得具体保障你们或许可以办一个类似座谈会听一下商家的意见因为反正给你们六个月时间嘛好不好你们现在时间很多谢谢因为我有附带决议所以要再次提醒这个结合玉敏委员所说的我希望你们要至少要邀请工会那工会是小吃工会"},{"start":17486.915,"end":17497.273,"text":"或者是这些小吃工会因为餐饮是最大宗嘛所以你应该要找小吃类工会面类工会这些来座谈以后再来你订出相关的饭本"},{"start":17498.27,"end":17521.185,"text":"來保障他們的權益應該是要顧小店家因為我們再次提醒雖然都是企業對企業民間的一個契約但是已經到達了快接近壟斷的一個地步因為幾乎九成的業者都有去加入這個平台可是這些呢不加入的反而是很奇怪的啊所以他們被迫都要加入也因為外送習慣的"},{"start":17522.566,"end":17540.854,"text":"改變消費模式所以變成Porsche這些人都要加入所以他們都是很弱勢的人所以麻煩你們好 後續在研議契約範本的時候這個經濟部可以遵照辦理沒有問題那也會依照羅遠剛剛的這個附帶決議我們會再邀集相關的工會來做一些研議"},{"start":17542.984,"end":17560.72,"text":"好 請陳昭芝委員發言 我再補充一下剛剛有跟經濟部就是在溝通的時候就是因為現在確實我們面對的是大鯨魚跟小蝦米都不是 目前而且看不出近期內會有這樣的改變所以基本上我們就是說在片面毀約而且很清楚影響權益之下"},{"start":17562.521,"end":17582.235,"text":"那一段時間你說到司法途徑那大概我們小小米永遠告不了那個大平台就這個當中你這個當中要有一個方法去維護這個商家的他的基本的一個權益就是在你們在思考這個不管是執法或細則的時候請你一定要把這個地方這個點放進去"},{"start":17584.386,"end":17599.951,"text":"就是當他片面毀約一直到他能夠他的損失他其實已經開始就是開始損失了那這個過程當中如果很漫長呢預期也不可能會去打贏這場官司啊進入因為承擔不起啊小商家承擔不起"},{"start":17600.956,"end":17628.016,"text":"可以嗎經濟部就是在處理這一道的時候這個觀點一定要放在你們的那個討論原則這一點可以看一下我們也會思考說在爭議訴訟的期間那一樣平台不得任意解約跟外送員的那個是一樣以上如果能夠達到剛剛我想說在你沒有確認你就不能你就是要遵守原來的合約這個精神是最重要的謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":17630.657,"end":17657.842,"text":"好那請問這條還有沒有其他的相關意見若本條文沒有的話那就是照勞動部版本喔那就是依照劉建國委員等16人的提案的修正動議通過的修正通過好現在回到第一條第一條"},{"start":17659.204,"end":17685.189,"text":"第一條主席各位委員那我們第一條有做了一些調整那我們這裡的寫法是這樣這是為保障外送員合作商家與消費者權益及管理外送平台業者並兼顧外送平台產業健全發展特制定本法然後第二項我們特別把外送員合作商家及消費者的權益保障也把它如列在上面"},{"start":17685.929,"end":17702.816,"text":"那也謝謝王玉美委員對我們的那個說明欄的肯定那我們就針對裡面特別有一句話就是兼顧外縱平台產業健全發展這句話我們把它拉到我們現在第一條的裡面的第一項特別把它鎮定在裡面以上說明等於沒改啊"},{"start":17743.545,"end":17746.929,"text":"那個3號還在 他就是把他下面 他沒有採用你的意見啦"},{"start":17756.014,"end":17774.72,"text":"对我们把大家刚看到兼顾外送平台产业发展平台产业的健全发展然后或者是可以再加上一个这个对我们觉得可以把上面有些文字可以放到就是现在的文字里面了对"},{"start":17791.035,"end":17815.107,"text":"保留還是要休息5分鐘溝通一下保留也可以保留保留是不是好那就保留協商嗎確定好那就保留協商有沒有宣告好那現在要處理附帶決議既有6案請一併宣讀第1案"},{"start":17819.608,"end":17841.523,"text":"要求交通部應針對外送產業特殊性於二個月內邀請相關專家學者業者與團體代表共同商議擬定並緊速修訂相關運價準則擬定真實反映機慢車營運成本之基本運價計算公式提案人委員劉建國 連署人委員林月琴 陳昭芝"},{"start":17842.344,"end":17861.845,"text":"第二案要求衛福部勞動部交通部需於三個月內擬拒相關業務推動之獎鼓勵措施供與外送平台業者與外送員以利相關業務之推動提案人委員劉建國連署人委員林月琴陳昭之第三案"},{"start":17863.427,"end":17890.885,"text":"主管機關應會同交通主管機關要求外送平台業者於派單時即應確保運送商品符合道路交通安全相關法規不得派送超過法定限制之商品建立派單安全基準以避免外送員被迫於違規或不安全情況下執行外送服務提升外送服務安全性提案人委員王振旭連署人委員林月琴 劉建國"},{"start":17891.966,"end":17908.612,"text":"第四案基於外送員外送服務長時間處於交通狀態及其受氣候影響之高風險特性外送平台業者與天然災害發生為政府機關未宣布停止上班時因審酌外送服務行經區域危險性"},{"start":17909.692,"end":17926.658,"text":"採取足以保障外送員安全之必要措施提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴 劉建國第五案建請經濟部於訂定契約範本時明確納入保障商家權益之必要規範包括費率透明"},{"start":17927.478,"end":17953.91,"text":"收費不得任意變動資訊揭露與基本爭議處理機制等事項以維持交易公平與市場秩序提案人委員廖偉祥 王育敏陳昭芝 陳金輝 羅廷偉第六案為明確化機關調閱之權限及依據以確保產業法律遵循之義務請勞動部研議於本法實行細則等規範時明定有關機關之定義及調閱範圍"},{"start":17955.311,"end":17982.72,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝王育敏陳昭芝宣讀完畢好請問第一案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見第一案遵照辦理好無異議照案通過請問第二案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見"},{"start":17984.488,"end":18010.246,"text":"老師這邊有文字的修正第二案的部分剛剛我們有跟委員辦公室溝通劉建國委員辦公室溝通我們做文字的修正在倒數第二行原則要求衛福部勞動部交通部需於三個月內與外送平台業者延伸外送員接受上開教育訓練者由業者提供獎勵措施之可行性"},{"start":18012.133,"end":18040.126,"text":"然後後面接著逗號以利相關業務是推動好那請問委員有無意見沒有請問林月琴委員有沒有意見OK好那就依照這個修改的依照行政院的建議那無異議照案通過無異議通過修正嗎修正通過好依照行政院單位的修正通過"},{"start":18041.991,"end":18068.415,"text":"好 那請問第三案行政單位或委員有意見主席 各位委員那第三案的部分原則上這個交通部沒有問題但是我們的建議是第三項就不需要再用出管機關會同直接由交通出管機關來要求平台業者來處理有關於交通安全的相關的法規所以我們建議把第三項的出管機關因會同給他刪除"},{"start":18072.399,"end":18099.014,"text":"請問林月琴委員有沒有意見所以依照行政機關行政單位的意見修正那依照他們的修正通過好再來是請問第四案行政單位有意見委員有意見沒有 勞動部沒有意見好那就無異議照案通過再來是請問第五案行政單位有意見委員有意見"},{"start":18103.968,"end":18129.996,"text":"好那無異議照案通過再來請問第6案行政單位有無意見是主席各位第6案勞動部沒有意見那但是那個後面有個字就是請勞動部言語本法施行細則那個實施的時把他修改一下施行細則那勞動部也沒有意見好那就依照行政單位修正通過好"},{"start":18134.278,"end":18154.131,"text":"再來最後做一下決議喔外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等26案審查完略並按擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論本案時由廖昭吉委員委想補充說明請問本案是否需交由黨團協商剛剛是剛剛是委員會協商對"},{"start":18163.12,"end":18182.604,"text":"好交由交由黨團協商哦那本法案調次條文中援引調次及法制用語調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那本次會議到此結束現在散會啊"},{"start":18201.466,"end":18217.572,"text":"來啦來啦來啦他們想跟你拍欸"},{"start":18225.145,"end":18230.129,"text":"前面的便當會不會擋到你們?會嗎?"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}