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現在我要跟部長討論兩個"},{"start":55.3,"end":57.3,"text":"駐外管出的問題"},{"start":57.3,"end":58.3,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":58.3,"end":60.3,"text":"最近新聞在播報"},{"start":60.3,"end":63.3,"text":"駐日內瓦辦事處處長李冠德"},{"start":63.3,"end":65.3,"text":"目前外界對李冠德有"},{"start":65.3,"end":68.3,"text":"霸凌下屬職場管理失當"},{"start":68.3,"end":72.3,"text":"濫用公帑甚至涉及超速等等的爭議"},{"start":72.3,"end":74.3,"text":"那我知道這個是屬於個案"},{"start":74.3,"end":75.3,"text":"個案的具體事實"},{"start":75.3,"end":77.3,"text":"外交部應該要依法調查"},{"start":77.3,"end":79.3,"text":"不能為省先判"},{"start":79.3,"end":81.3,"text":"但是我要請教部長的是說"},{"start":81.3,"end":83.3,"text":"外交部對駐外管出主管的品德"},{"start":83.3,"end":85.3,"text":"管理能力以及紀律的要求"},{"start":85.3,"end":88.3,"text":"到底有沒有一套有效的監督機制"},{"start":88.3,"end":91.3,"text":"因為駐外的處長他代表不只是他個人"},{"start":91.3,"end":93.3,"text":"代表是中華民國的政府"},{"start":93.3,"end":96.3,"text":"那我們知道外交官在國外的一言一行"},{"start":96.3,"end":98.3,"text":"他都可能影響國家的形象"},{"start":98.3,"end":102.3,"text":"如果說一個主管在管內讓部署感受到霸凌"},{"start":102.3,"end":106.3,"text":"濫用公帑甚至還出現交通違規等等的爭議"},{"start":106.3,"end":107.3,"text":"那麼外交部不能"},{"start":107.3,"end":111.3,"text":"就只說說正在調查或是尊重程序"},{"start":111.3,"end":112.3,"text":"這樣就來結束"},{"start":112.3,"end":114.3,"text":"所以本席要問的是說"},{"start":114.3,"end":118.3,"text":"到底這一個事件我們調查查到了什麼"},{"start":118.3,"end":121.3,"text":"有沒有對相關人員進行訪談"},{"start":121.3,"end":125.3,"text":"那有沒有保護可能會受到不當對待的下屬"},{"start":125.3,"end":127.3,"text":"那如果這個查證屬實"},{"start":127.3,"end":132.3,"text":"外交部會不會追究行政甚至是刑事的責任"},{"start":132.3,"end":134.3,"text":"那更重要的是說"},{"start":134.3,"end":135.3,"text":"我對你跟他報警公告"},{"start":135.3,"end":138.3,"text":"我們這駐外的管處不是誰的山頭"},{"start":138.3,"end":141.3,"text":"也不是哪一個主管到的國外就無法無天"},{"start":141.3,"end":144.3,"text":"我希望外交部能夠把這件事情來查清楚"},{"start":144.3,"end":146.3,"text":"那第二個部分部長待會一起回答"},{"start":146.3,"end":147.3,"text":"第二個部分就是說"},{"start":147.3,"end":150.3,"text":"因為你之前一直強調台日關係良好"},{"start":150.3,"end":154.3,"text":"甚至你自己說只能在睡日本機場的時候"},{"start":154.3,"end":158.3,"text":"你也豁達的表示說你自己覺得沒有很委屈"},{"start":158.3,"end":160.3,"text":"那我尊重部長你個人的修養"},{"start":160.3,"end":163.3,"text":"你自己睡機場你可以說沒關係不委屈"},{"start":163.3,"end":165.3,"text":"這是個人的選擇"},{"start":165.3,"end":167.3,"text":"但今天問題來了"},{"start":167.3,"end":169.3,"text":"如果這個不是你自己睡哪裡的問題"},{"start":169.3,"end":173.3,"text":"而是中華民國代表在國際場受到不合理的待遇"},{"start":173.3,"end":177.3,"text":"這個就不是部長你覺得不委屈就算了"},{"start":177.3,"end":181.3,"text":"因為像這一次里昂代表參加長期原報和平紀念典禮"},{"start":181.3,"end":184.3,"text":"卻被安排在其他國家使節後方的位置"},{"start":184.3,"end":187.3,"text":"這個對我們來說就是矮化"},{"start":187.3,"end":191.3,"text":"那甚至事後日方還強硬的出面來表示說"},{"start":191.3,"end":195.3,"text":"是我們主動表達參加議運後"},{"start":195.3,"end":198.3,"text":"他們才同意讓我們出席"},{"start":198.3,"end":201.3,"text":"像這種日方打破外交默契"},{"start":201.3,"end":205.3,"text":"出面打臉的狀況在過去是非常非常的罕見"},{"start":205.3,"end":207.3,"text":"所以我也要請教部長說"},{"start":207.3,"end":211.3,"text":"你過去跟我們說台日關係持續友好深化"},{"start":211.3,"end":215.3,"text":"沒有因為卓院長公開去日本東京看球賽"},{"start":215.3,"end":219.3,"text":"而遭到日本官員表達不滿受到這個影響"},{"start":219.3,"end":223.3,"text":"你睡機場也是因為行程的安排沒有感到委屈"},{"start":223.3,"end":227.3,"text":"那為什麼這次我方的代表受到這樣子的對待"},{"start":227.3,"end":229.3,"text":"我現在看到是另外一回事"},{"start":229.3,"end":232.3,"text":"如果說台日真的如您所說的"},{"start":232.3,"end":234.3,"text":"依然這麼樣的穩固"},{"start":234.3,"end":237.3,"text":"那麼我們代表出席這麼重要的場合"},{"start":237.3,"end":240.3,"text":"為什麼會出現這樣子的安排"},{"start":240.3,"end":243.3,"text":"儘管說外交場合的座位"},{"start":243.3,"end":246.3,"text":"它的安排可能涉及到很多的因素"},{"start":246.3,"end":251.3,"text":"那我也不會單一用一個座位就判斷台日關係"},{"start":251.3,"end":253.3,"text":"但是本席想要問說"},{"start":253.3,"end":257.3,"text":"當台灣代表明顯被安排在相對後方的位置"},{"start":257.3,"end":260.3,"text":"外交部有沒有事先掌握"},{"start":260.3,"end":264.3,"text":"那這件事情事件我方在表達立場之後"},{"start":264.3,"end":266.3,"text":"有沒有持續來交涉"},{"start":266.3,"end":268.3,"text":"那有沒有得到回應"},{"start":268.3,"end":270.3,"text":"得到的回應又是什麼"},{"start":270.3,"end":272.3,"text":"更重要的是"},{"start":272.3,"end":275.3,"text":"部長你自己可以覺得說睡機場沒有什麼"},{"start":275.3,"end":277.3,"text":"那是因為你個人的感受"},{"start":277.3,"end":279.3,"text":"那如果今天中華民國的國歌"},{"start":279.3,"end":282.3,"text":"在國際的場合的尊嚴受到矮化"},{"start":282.3,"end":286.3,"text":"這個不是林佳龍個人覺得委不委屈的問題"},{"start":286.3,"end":289.3,"text":"所以這個才是本席要提醒部長的地方"},{"start":289.3,"end":292.3,"text":"因為外交的責任不能告訴人民說這沒關係"},{"start":292.3,"end":294.3,"text":"我們不覺得睡覺"},{"start":294.3,"end":295.3,"text":"因為外交的責任是"},{"start":295.3,"end":299.3,"text":"當國家代表受到不合理對待的時候"},{"start":299.3,"end":302.3,"text":"就要站出來替國家爭取他應該有的尊重"},{"start":302.3,"end":305.3,"text":"所以在這邊本席要請部長正面的回答"},{"start":305.3,"end":308.3,"text":"你口中的台日關係依舊穩固"},{"start":308.3,"end":312.3,"text":"究竟是建立在實際的外交待遇的待遇上"},{"start":312.3,"end":316.3,"text":"或者只是建立在個人的認知上面"},{"start":316.3,"end":318.3,"text":"如果說台日的關係真的很穩固"},{"start":318.3,"end":322.3,"text":"那外交部更應該要拿出證據讓國人看到"},{"start":322.3,"end":325.3,"text":"而不是我們每次遇到爭議的時候"},{"start":325.3,"end":328.3,"text":"反正被審公台日友好沒有問題"},{"start":328.3,"end":329.3,"text":"或是不委屈"},{"start":329.3,"end":331.3,"text":"不是這樣的話就可以解決"},{"start":331.3,"end":333.3,"text":"部長利用這個機會你來說明一下"},{"start":333.3,"end":335.3,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":335.3,"end":337.3,"text":"不是睡機場"},{"start":337.3,"end":340.3,"text":"是在機場飯店"},{"start":340.3,"end":341.3,"text":"沒關係部長"},{"start":341.3,"end":346.3,"text":"所以早上5點包機就到check in"},{"start":346.3,"end":351.3,"text":"所以這個是純粹是行程的安排"},{"start":351.3,"end":352.3,"text":"我是再次說明"},{"start":352.3,"end":354.3,"text":"我不是像電影院的"},{"start":354.3,"end":357.3,"text":"拿著行李有些人就在這邊機場裡面"},{"start":357.3,"end":359.3,"text":"是機場的旅館"},{"start":359.3,"end":363.3,"text":"我們台灣也有其實也都這個很舒適"},{"start":364.3,"end":366.3,"text":"至於說這一次有關於"},{"start":366.3,"end":370.3,"text":"所謂日本核爆紀念的這個活動"},{"start":370.3,"end":372.3,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":372.3,"end":374.3,"text":"我是跟日方都有溝通的"},{"start":374.3,"end":376.3,"text":"管道也暢通"},{"start":376.3,"end":378.3,"text":"我們也有分工"},{"start":378.3,"end":380.3,"text":"比如大使去廣島"},{"start":380.3,"end":382.3,"text":"處長去長崎"},{"start":382.3,"end":384.3,"text":"廣島因為在遷"},{"start":384.3,"end":386.3,"text":"就鞏固了我們台日關係"},{"start":386.3,"end":387.3,"text":"雖然我們沒有邦交國"},{"start":387.3,"end":389.3,"text":"他把我們視同邦交國"},{"start":389.3,"end":392.3,"text":"我們當然是非常的肯定"},{"start":392.3,"end":396.3,"text":"可是在長崎因為他過去就是說"},{"start":396.3,"end":401.3,"text":"當然有一些比較不友善的行為"},{"start":401.3,"end":404.3,"text":"這一次他們希望有改善"},{"start":404.3,"end":408.3,"text":"所以其實跟外面報導是有出路的"},{"start":408.3,"end":410.3,"text":"並不是說像去年那個樣子"},{"start":410.3,"end":412.3,"text":"中間又隔一個走道"},{"start":412.3,"end":415.3,"text":"我們處長到的時候也是報到"},{"start":415.3,"end":418.3,"text":"他也是專人引導入座"},{"start":418.3,"end":421.3,"text":"也有帶了一個就是所謂使節團的那個花"},{"start":421.3,"end":423.3,"text":"很大"},{"start":423.3,"end":425.3,"text":"所以我認為某個程度來講"},{"start":425.3,"end":427.3,"text":"對方也可能感受到"},{"start":427.3,"end":431.3,"text":"不管是我們的誠意或他們社會的壓力"},{"start":431.3,"end":435.3,"text":"那我是認為這樣子是朝好的方向發展"},{"start":435.3,"end":437.3,"text":"但是我們仍然不滿意"},{"start":437.3,"end":439.3,"text":"我們還是希望說"},{"start":439.3,"end":443.3,"text":"我們能夠因為這樣一個活動"},{"start":443.3,"end":445.3,"text":"能夠以就是說"},{"start":445.3,"end":447.3,"text":"跟一般使節團一樣"},{"start":447.3,"end":449.3,"text":"完全一樣"},{"start":449.3,"end":452.3,"text":"可是事實上這裡面在實質上是一樣"},{"start":452.3,"end":454.3,"text":"可是因為他們對於台灣的"},{"start":454.3,"end":458.3,"text":"跟我們的外交關係或我們的國家的定位"},{"start":458.3,"end":461.3,"text":"是確實不是邦交國"},{"start":461.3,"end":463.3,"text":"所以我覺得在外交是很複雜"},{"start":463.3,"end":467.3,"text":"我們不可能都百分百用我們期待的標準"},{"start":467.3,"end":470.3,"text":"有時候中間就要來來往往"},{"start":470.3,"end":472.3,"text":"慢慢去拉近這個距離"},{"start":472.3,"end":476.3,"text":"所以我認為說外面有一些可能認為說"},{"start":476.3,"end":478.3,"text":"他們有點矮化我們"},{"start":478.3,"end":480.3,"text":"很不禮貌"},{"start":480.3,"end":482.3,"text":"我也都表達了"},{"start":482.3,"end":484.3,"text":"這是我們的國家的立場"},{"start":484.3,"end":488.3,"text":"可是也要鼓勵他們朝改善的方向"},{"start":488.3,"end":490.3,"text":"來這一個發展"},{"start":490.3,"end":494.3,"text":"部長這當然就是了解"},{"start":494.3,"end":496.3,"text":"不好意思主席我再耽誤一點時間"},{"start":496.3,"end":499.3,"text":"我相信其實部長我們都要釋出善意"},{"start":499.3,"end":501.3,"text":"但是如果真的有不禮貌"},{"start":501.3,"end":503.3,"text":"我們也應該要講話"},{"start":503.3,"end":505.3,"text":"我現在就回應你這樣想"},{"start":505.3,"end":507.3,"text":"是你要參加我讓你來"},{"start":507.3,"end":509.3,"text":"聽到你怎麼想"},{"start":509.3,"end":511.3,"text":"好像我們一直要拜託人家讓我們參加聯合黨"},{"start":511.3,"end":513.3,"text":"所以你今天來你拜後面"},{"start":513.3,"end":515.3,"text":"那是我很尊重你"},{"start":515.3,"end":517.3,"text":"部長你聽到"},{"start":517.3,"end":521.3,"text":"他們是有到副市長陳其跟我們交涉"},{"start":521.3,"end":523.3,"text":"也有議員大家都想促成"},{"start":523.3,"end":525.3,"text":"因為基本上這個是一個"},{"start":525.3,"end":528.3,"text":"核報是一個和平紀念的活動"},{"start":528.3,"end":531.3,"text":"我是覺得這次裡面的拿捏"},{"start":531.3,"end":533.3,"text":"我們已經做了區區別"},{"start":533.3,"end":535.3,"text":"比如說廣島"},{"start":535.3,"end":537.3,"text":"如果說今天長期在先"},{"start":537.3,"end":539.3,"text":"那會有這個印象"},{"start":539.3,"end":541.3,"text":"可是他們直接因為這是地方政府辦的活動"},{"start":541.3,"end":543.3,"text":"雖然中央官員有到各國的使節"},{"start":543.3,"end":545.3,"text":"我是認為在外交上"},{"start":545.3,"end":547.3,"text":"我們台灣的處境本來就很特別"},{"start":547.3,"end":549.3,"text":"我們真的有時候要稍微有一點因地制宜"},{"start":549.3,"end":551.3,"text":"然後要鼓勵正向的發展"},{"start":551.3,"end":555.3,"text":"我們不能夠只是表述我們的立場"},{"start":555.3,"end":557.3,"text":"立場表述完之後"},{"start":557.3,"end":559.3,"text":"下一步外交還是要來往"},{"start":559.3,"end":561.3,"text":"我是鼓勵我們的管處長"},{"start":561.3,"end":563.3,"text":"要發揮創意"},{"start":563.3,"end":565.3,"text":"然後讓他們授權他們"},{"start":565.3,"end":567.3,"text":"有一點彈性的空間"},{"start":567.3,"end":569.3,"text":"因為在第一線打仗"},{"start":569.3,"end":571.3,"text":"外交是沒有煙囂的戰爭"},{"start":571.3,"end":573.3,"text":"24小時111個外館"},{"start":573.3,"end":575.3,"text":"我們隨時都在作戰"},{"start":575.3,"end":577.3,"text":"謝謝部長這樣的說明"},{"start":577.3,"end":579.3,"text":"我想利用這個機會讓國人也看到"},{"start":579.3,"end":581.3,"text":"就是說當我們的外交情況遇到這種情形"},{"start":581.3,"end":583.3,"text":"我們該表達什麼樣的方式"},{"start":583.3,"end":585.3,"text":"立場堅定"},{"start":585.3,"end":587.3,"text":"態度很溫柔"},{"start":587.3,"end":589.3,"text":"但是方法很有策略"},{"start":589.3,"end":591.3,"text":"另外就是"},{"start":591.3,"end":593.3,"text":"有分手提到第一問題"},{"start":593.3,"end":595.3,"text":"就是外交使節這些事情"},{"start":595.3,"end":597.3,"text":"如何做這個事情"},{"start":597.3,"end":599.3,"text":"我很正面看到"},{"start":599.3,"end":601.3,"text":"我們外交部的同仁"},{"start":601.3,"end":603.3,"text":"以具名的方式"},{"start":603.3,"end":605.3,"text":"來提出檢舉"},{"start":605.3,"end":607.3,"text":"因此在七月底我們收到的時候"},{"start":607.3,"end":609.3,"text":"我們就已經立案"},{"start":609.3,"end":611.3,"text":"然後八月二號就組成專案調查小組"},{"start":611.3,"end":613.3,"text":"然後現在我們就"},{"start":613.3,"end":615.3,"text":"現在我們的李處長也反國了"},{"start":615.3,"end":617.3,"text":"因為這個事情"},{"start":617.3,"end":619.3,"text":"他檢舉的項目非常多"},{"start":619.3,"end":621.3,"text":"涉及很多單位"},{"start":621.3,"end":623.3,"text":"恐怕不是我們公文往返"},{"start":623.3,"end":625.3,"text":"能夠辦理的"},{"start":625.3,"end":627.3,"text":"所以我們就請他回來"},{"start":627.3,"end":629.3,"text":"然後來面對這個調查小組"},{"start":629.3,"end":631.3,"text":"因為這都是很多外部委員"},{"start":631.3,"end":633.3,"text":"都是專業的"},{"start":633.3,"end":635.3,"text":"有法律的有諮商的這些專家"},{"start":635.3,"end":637.3,"text":"我們就信任他們"},{"start":637.3,"end":639.3,"text":"我們也希望這個程序能夠加速"},{"start":639.3,"end":641.3,"text":"那把它釐清事實"},{"start":641.3,"end":643.3,"text":"釐清事實"},{"start":643.3,"end":645.3,"text":"因為有一些可能"},{"start":645.3,"end":647.3,"text":"雙方面的認知或證據是什麼"},{"start":647.3,"end":649.3,"text":"那我們就把它提出來"},{"start":649.3,"end":651.3,"text":"我們也不要馬上就下結論"},{"start":651.3,"end":653.3,"text":"然後給這個調查專業的小組"},{"start":653.3,"end":655.3,"text":"有一個調查的空間"},{"start":655.3,"end":657.3,"text":"好謝謝部長"},{"start":657.3,"end":659.3,"text":"部長那個還是"},{"start":659.3,"end":661.3,"text":"關心你真的要利用假日"},{"start":661.3,"end":663.3,"text":"好好學習平時真的國事如馬"},{"start":663.3,"end":665.3,"text":"外交的處境"},{"start":665.3,"end":667.3,"text":"剛剛我們聊起來就是一件小事情都可以"},{"start":667.3,"end":669.3,"text":"忙成這樣子"},{"start":669.3,"end":671.3,"text":"那你也多睡一覺"},{"start":671.3,"end":673.3,"text":"我都在睡一覺"},{"start":673.3,"end":675.3,"text":"一人來找我"},{"start":675.3,"end":677.3,"text":"那副算的工作很多人都做你多睡一覺"},{"start":677.3,"end":679.3,"text":"就是人才嘛"},{"start":679.3,"end":681.3,"text":"就好學習"},{"start":681.3,"end":683.3,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}