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"end":443.8,"text":"我們一樣會辦"},{"start":443.8,"end":444.8,"text":"我要講的事情是說"},{"start":444.8,"end":447.8,"text":"因為大林的申訴他最麻煩的地方"},{"start":447.8,"end":449.8,"text":"就在於說他檢舉之後"},{"start":449.8,"end":451.8,"text":"他第一件事情找的是找所有人來"},{"start":451.8,"end":452.8,"text":"那我問一下"},{"start":452.8,"end":454.8,"text":"就你們現在所了解的就是"},{"start":454.8,"end":458.8,"text":"他被申訴之後找大家開會的用意"},{"start":458.8,"end":461.8,"text":"是針對他個人的這個案子"},{"start":461.8,"end":463.8,"text":"還是說那只是例行性的會議"},{"start":463.8,"end":464.8,"text":"就算是例行性的會議"},{"start":464.8,"end":466.8,"text":"還是額外增加的一個會呢"},{"start":467.8,"end":469.8,"text":"這個都要等他回來說明"},{"start":469.8,"end":471.8,"text":"對那你等了老半天之後"},{"start":471.8,"end":473.8,"text":"你就是到時候這件事情傳過水魂"},{"start":473.8,"end":475.8,"text":"大家想知道的對象就沒有"},{"start":475.8,"end":477.8,"text":"不會啦這個也會列入調查的範圍"},{"start":477.8,"end":479.8,"text":"那你最後調查會公開嗎"},{"start":479.8,"end":481.8,"text":"這個案子調查報告會不會公開"},{"start":481.8,"end":483.8,"text":"這個程序怎麼走"},{"start":483.8,"end":485.8,"text":"沒有因為像曲例來講好了"},{"start":485.8,"end":487.8,"text":"剛才講的其他的霸凌的案子"},{"start":487.8,"end":490.8,"text":"那你有的你霸凌案成立了"},{"start":490.8,"end":491.8,"text":"可是你就依照好"},{"start":491.8,"end":493.8,"text":"你們的規定也好會怎麼樣的"},{"start":493.8,"end":495.8,"text":"但是你最後只是調職"},{"start":495.8,"end":497.8,"text":"那很多事情也沒有公開"},{"start":497.8,"end":499.8,"text":"可是我就舉這個例子來講"},{"start":499.8,"end":502.8,"text":"李冠德的事情都已經到上了新聞了"},{"start":502.8,"end":504.8,"text":"而且被檢舉的包含您剛講的"},{"start":504.8,"end":505.8,"text":"他可能有具名"},{"start":505.8,"end":507.8,"text":"包含有很多的市政提出來"},{"start":507.8,"end":510.8,"text":"那如果你們調查了兩個月以後"},{"start":510.8,"end":512.8,"text":"調查報告沒有辦法公開的話"},{"start":512.8,"end":514.8,"text":"對於社會上很多民眾"},{"start":514.8,"end":515.8,"text":"是沒有辦法交代的"},{"start":515.8,"end":517.8,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長"},{"start":517.8,"end":518.8,"text":"我們能不能去承諾說"},{"start":518.8,"end":521.8,"text":"等案接下來調查小組"},{"start":521.8,"end":524.8,"text":"調查完畢之後再去識別化"},{"start":524.8,"end":526.8,"text":"你可能有些個資產的規定等等"},{"start":526.8,"end":528.8,"text":"在法律的允許的情況之下"},{"start":528.8,"end":530.8,"text":"能夠把案情公開"},{"start":530.8,"end":531.8,"text":"因為我們總不希望"},{"start":531.8,"end":533.8,"text":"今天在媒體上講說你看"},{"start":533.8,"end":535.8,"text":"半申訴之後施壓"},{"start":535.8,"end":536.8,"text":"那到最後有或沒有呢"},{"start":536.8,"end":539.8,"text":"你總要給社會上一個交代跟說明吧"},{"start":539.8,"end":543.8,"text":"是 包委員因為現在雙方的認知跟說明"},{"start":543.8,"end":544.8,"text":"差距很大"},{"start":544.8,"end":545.8,"text":"所以說要調查"},{"start":545.8,"end":547.8,"text":"不過也是中和跟委員報告"},{"start":547.8,"end":550.8,"text":"一個外交官的培養是很不容易"},{"start":550.8,"end":553.8,"text":"那在外館也是在很大的壓力工作下"},{"start":553.8,"end":556.8,"text":"因為涉及到外交的戰場"},{"start":556.8,"end":557.8,"text":"真的是沒有驗消的戰爭"},{"start":557.8,"end":560.8,"text":"那可能會做一些改善工作環境"},{"start":560.8,"end":563.8,"text":"就是讓管道申訴可以暢通以外"},{"start":563.8,"end":565.8,"text":"你剛剛講我要打斷你一下"},{"start":565.8,"end":567.8,"text":"因為你外交官很難培養"},{"start":567.8,"end":568.8,"text":"那他霸凌的人"},{"start":568.8,"end":569.8,"text":"如果他霸凌了"},{"start":569.8,"end":572.8,"text":"那一個人好OK你給他培養起來"},{"start":572.8,"end":574.8,"text":"一個人霸凌五個人"},{"start":574.8,"end":576.8,"text":"這樣的話五個人不就在權益上"},{"start":576.8,"end":578.8,"text":"對 之所以大家都很辛苦"},{"start":578.8,"end":580.8,"text":"今天是被檢舉的人"},{"start":580.8,"end":582.8,"text":"你可能覺得說他這個工作很辛苦"},{"start":582.8,"end":584.8,"text":"幫他工作的人他們也很辛苦"},{"start":584.8,"end":586.8,"text":"所以我還是要幫這些其他去"},{"start":586.8,"end":588.8,"text":"他今天之所以會有人來申訴"},{"start":588.8,"end":590.8,"text":"一定是有一些狀況"},{"start":590.8,"end":592.8,"text":"但是狀況嚴重於否"},{"start":592.8,"end":594.8,"text":"有沒有到達這個霸凌的界線"},{"start":594.8,"end":596.8,"text":"是你們調查小組要去做調查的"},{"start":596.8,"end":598.8,"text":"有些涉及非霸凌事項"},{"start":598.8,"end":599.8,"text":"有些涉及霸凌的部分"},{"start":599.8,"end":601.8,"text":"所以最後我希望可以得到一個承認"},{"start":601.8,"end":604.8,"text":"就是本案到底調查小組會不會公開"},{"start":604.8,"end":606.8,"text":"你們調查小組能不能公開"},{"start":606.8,"end":607.8,"text":"本案調查小組"},{"start":607.8,"end":609.8,"text":"因為他這個程序在進行中"},{"start":609.8,"end":610.8,"text":"結果如何"},{"start":610.8,"end":612.8,"text":"那什麼情況下會公開"},{"start":612.8,"end":614.8,"text":"什麼情況下會不公開"},{"start":614.8,"end":615.8,"text":"因為現在才剛開始"},{"start":615.8,"end":617.8,"text":"我們就是專案調查小組"},{"start":617.8,"end":619.8,"text":"一點時間跟空間"},{"start":619.8,"end":621.8,"text":"我知道外界很關心"},{"start":621.8,"end":623.8,"text":"但程序要走好"},{"start":623.8,"end":624.8,"text":"對 當然啦"},{"start":624.8,"end":625.8,"text":"我沒有說程序不走好"},{"start":625.8,"end":626.8,"text":"但是你調查完之後"},{"start":626.8,"end":628.8,"text":"他是什麼情況之下會不公開"},{"start":628.8,"end":630.8,"text":"什麼情況之下會公開"},{"start":630.8,"end":632.8,"text":"這一點你總是要不公開"},{"start":632.8,"end":634.8,"text":"我們都有相關的規範"},{"start":634.8,"end":636.8,"text":"我們也讓專案調查小組"},{"start":636.8,"end":638.8,"text":"因為這些都是外部委員"},{"start":638.8,"end":640.8,"text":"很多都是有專業經驗的"},{"start":640.8,"end":641.8,"text":"所以你規範要跟大家講一下"},{"start":641.8,"end":643.8,"text":"譬如說要到什麼程度上面"},{"start":643.8,"end":644.8,"text":"你現在要回覆我"},{"start":644.8,"end":646.8,"text":"就是說調查完之後"},{"start":646.8,"end":648.8,"text":"譬如說他霸凌有成立"},{"start":648.8,"end":650.8,"text":"那成立的話什麼樣的程度"},{"start":650.8,"end":653.8,"text":"那他這個我們的調查技術會公開"},{"start":653.8,"end":655.8,"text":"那什麼樣程度以下他是不會公開"},{"start":655.8,"end":656.8,"text":"這個應該是知道的吧"},{"start":656.8,"end":659.8,"text":"沒有 我覺得任何個案到具體這麼細"},{"start":659.8,"end":661.8,"text":"涉及到有沒有外交機密或等等"},{"start":661.8,"end":662.8,"text":"我們要中和去考量"},{"start":662.8,"end":665.8,"text":"一定要等這個程序走到一個階段"},{"start":665.8,"end":666.8,"text":"我現在真的沒有辦法講說"},{"start":666.8,"end":667.8,"text":"SNO的問題"},{"start":667.8,"end":669.8,"text":"到底要公布到什麼程度"},{"start":669.8,"end":671.8,"text":"那涉及到我們外交業務"},{"start":671.8,"end":673.8,"text":"那也請委員給我們一點看編"},{"start":673.8,"end":674.8,"text":"好 委任你講這個東西"},{"start":674.8,"end":676.8,"text":"就變成是說所有人都要因為你講說"},{"start":676.8,"end":678.8,"text":"是不是所謂的落交機密"},{"start":678.8,"end":679.8,"text":"我剛剛講了"},{"start":679.8,"end":680.8,"text":"你會去試試圖的話"},{"start":680.8,"end":682.8,"text":"你會去去"},{"start":682.8,"end":684.8,"text":"你的機密沒有人讓你公開給大家"},{"start":684.8,"end":686.8,"text":"但是譬如說我舉個例子"},{"start":686.8,"end":688.8,"text":"這個人他被申訴之後"},{"start":688.8,"end":689.8,"text":"有沒有去靠會施壓人家"},{"start":689.8,"end":691.8,"text":"這個沒有涉及任何機密"},{"start":691.8,"end":692.8,"text":"所以我意思是"},{"start":692.8,"end":694.8,"text":"我們也要去調查"},{"start":694.8,"end":696.8,"text":"對 我沒有否認說你要去調查"},{"start":696.8,"end":698.8,"text":"我問的是調查完以後"},{"start":698.8,"end":700.8,"text":"那到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":700.8,"end":702.8,"text":"這個人他到底有沒有涉及霸凌"},{"start":702.8,"end":704.8,"text":"霸凌的程度是如何的"},{"start":704.8,"end":706.8,"text":"我還是希望能夠給全民一個交代"},{"start":706.8,"end":709.8,"text":"因為這個是你對眾多的人去做討論的"},{"start":709.8,"end":710.8,"text":"需要一點時間"},{"start":710.8,"end":711.8,"text":"好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":711.8,"end":712.8,"text":"我們來努力 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:04.069474+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請林佳龍部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:04.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:04.990000+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:13.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:13.630000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:13.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:14.630000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:14.501176+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:34.577143+08:00","text":"今天想要跟你討論一個很嚴肅、但是大家都很關注的議題，就是近期外交部爆發的霸凌事件，我們先從這幾個月以來、大半年來所發生的霸凌，再細部到這一次的個案事件。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:35.163636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:46.698182+08:00","text":"首先想要問一下部長，就你自己的掌握，自你上任以來，外交部有多少起霸凌的申訴案，或是說比較嚴重的一些案件？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:48.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:53.178667+08:00","text":"我想兩年多應該10件左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:54.474286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:09.005000+08:00","text":"差不多，至少有8起以上，根據外交部安全及衛生防護委員會的審議結果，其中2起是不予受理，2起調查完畢，還有4起是在調查當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:09.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:28.400000+08:00","text":"我想要請問一下，您在7月的時候推出三大措施來應對職場霸凌的現象，請問一下，自宣布以來，你自己覺得你們推出這樣的作為有哪邊還有可以精進、可以調整的地方？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:28.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:07.527273+08:00","text":"其實教育宣導、讓申訴管道暢通，以及如果部長可以得到我們外交部同仁的信任，他會很樂於從內部來反映，不然的話可能爆料一大堆，很多匿名的，那我鼓勵具名最好，像這一次以我們駐日內瓦辦事處的情形，就是因為有具名，所以我們在7月底接到這個檢舉或申訴的時候就成立了專案調查小組，已經將近三個禮拜了。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:30.200000+08:00","text":"這個我有不同的意見，具名當然好，但是很多的同仁畢竟是文官，好不容易做了外交官，有時候他迫於自己生涯發展的壓力，他不見得敢於用具名的方式來做申訴，但並不等同於霸凌沒有發生，或是外交部上級機關不去調查。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:30.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:32.675000+08:00","text":"即使沒有具名，我們還是會判斷之後處理。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:32.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:54.623529+08:00","text":"對，所以我倒不會從霸凌被爆出來的案件數量來評估外交部做得好不好，而是看每一起被公布出來的、被社會討論的，外交部有沒有辦法、有沒有能力積極的調查，去還給這些可能被霸凌的人員一個公道。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:07.633333+08:00","text":"所以我們可以看一下案件數量，我不會因為數量多就認為外交部處理得好或不好，但是我也必須要提到，其實近年來外交部出現了很多的霸凌案，你可以看到事由上面有一些類似的地方，比如說很多都是屬於冷暴力，因為他們外派在外面，所以理論上，身為家屬應該是公事公辦，私事的話不能公辦，所以頤指氣使的態度是不對的，你看，幾乎都是這樣子，比較多可能是羞辱性的、過度的苛責、冷暴力等等，先前不是在外交部而是在經貿小組發生了不幸的事件，我想您應該很清楚，好險不是在外交部，但是我還是要提到，如果我們對於這些霸凌案沒有辦法適當、快速地去制止的話，後續如果發生讓人遺憾的事情，到那時候都來不及了。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:19.338462+08:00","text":"所以我想請問，目前在這上面寫的幾起案件中，還有哪一些是你們還沒有調查完畢、正在調查的，可不可以一次跟大家說明？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:25.675000+08:00","text":"就是現在還有哪幾起在媒體上面有被揭露、公開的霸凌案，是你們還在調查當中的？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:26.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:29.577778+08:00","text":"大概需要多久時間能夠調查完畢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:29.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:31.133333+08:00","text":"我請人事處長來說明。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:31.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:32.300000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:32.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:45.569231+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，委員在畫面上提供的部分，除了李冠德處長這個案子現在還在處理中，其他的我們都已經處理完畢了。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:46.163636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:52.925000+08:00","text":"有後續申訴成立，然後有做懲處的部分嗎？有。哪些？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:53.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:54.675000+08:00","text":"可不可以做一個比較詳細的說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:55.550000+08:00","text":"這邊沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:56.466667+08:00","text":"都沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:56.917647+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:06.400000+08:00","text":"其他的部分可不可以跟大家說明一下，就是近期有哪幾起霸凌申訴案後續有確定做懲處的？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:08.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:10.618182+08:00","text":"就是霸凌申訴案有成立的有哪幾起？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:10.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:25.550000+08:00","text":"我們如果有成立的話，嚴重的我們才會懲處，如果是像館長有成立所謂的職場霸凌的話，我們是馬上把他調回部裡面，就是把他的……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:26.442857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:28.585714+08:00","text":"近年來大概有哪些？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:29.866667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:35.600000+08:00","text":"因為那個案子並沒有見報，是不是我們會後再私下跟委員報告？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:35.953846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:54.550000+08:00","text":"你可以再跟我報告沒有問題，但是我也要提到，這些人會去講這個申訴案、會去講這個霸凌案，他一定也會希望處理可以有一個結果，所以你們平均大概要幾個月能夠調查完畢？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:57.623529+08:00","text":"因為我看到有一個月的，也有兩個月的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:27.466667+08:00","text":"再跟委員說明，因為發生的事件都是在外館，所以中間我們除了會先做一些行政釐清以外，還要先跟外部委員討論，在討論完了以後，還要跟外館的館員約時間，因為會有時差，然後他們內部可能也要自己蒐集一些證據，所以原則上我們都一定會依照公務人員保障法以及安衛辦法的規定在期限內完成。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:28.600000+08:00","text":"期限是多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂處長世壹","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:28.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:36.800000+08:00","text":"只要我們收到、受理的話，我們一個月內一定要確定是否要受理，在確定受理之後，兩個月內就要完成調查。好。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:37.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:51.585714+08:00","text":"接下來我要問部長，我們回到個案來談，在駐日內瓦的處長爆出爭議之後，新聞報導中提到，李冠德知道被申訴以後，竟召集辦事處的同仁開會施壓。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:54.600000+08:00","text":"就你們現在的了解，有沒有這件事情？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:02.633333+08:00","text":"應該是有開會，但內容是什麼我們要等受調查者回來做說明，他已經回來了。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:02.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:06.107692+08:00","text":"他已經回來了，那什麼時候可以得到一個回復？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:07.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:08.550000+08:00","text":"專案小組在安排約詢的時間。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:09.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:21.072727+08:00","text":"為什麼我前面會問部長具名跟不具名的問題，你看這個就很明顯了，我們先假設新聞報導是真的，如果今天……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:21.345455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:24.633333+08:00","text":"如果事實明確，就算沒具名，我們一樣也會辦理。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:44.633333+08:00","text":"對，我要講的事情是，因為霸凌申訴最麻煩的地方就在於，他被檢舉之後，他第一件事情是找所有人來開會，我問一下，就你們現在所了解的，他被申訴之後找大家開會的用意是針對他個人的案子，還是那只是例行性的會議？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:44.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:47.618182+08:00","text":"就是它是例行性會議，還是額外增加的一個會呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:48.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:50.600000+08:00","text":"這個都要等他回來說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:56.618182+08:00","text":"對，你等了老半天之後，你就是到時候這件事情船過水無痕，大家想知道的真相就沒有了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:56.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:57.085714+08:00","text":"不會啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:57.228571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:58.657143+08:00","text":"這個也會列入調查的範圍。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:00.600000+08:00","text":"對於這個案子，你最後調查會公開嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:01.415385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:02.646154+08:00","text":"調查報告會不會公開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:02.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:04.514286+08:00","text":"我們就依法辦理，這個程序怎麼走……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:04.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:18.600000+08:00","text":"沒有，舉例來講好了，剛才講的其他霸凌案，有的霸凌案成立了，可是你就依照你們的規定也好或怎麼樣，你最後也只是把他調職，很多事情也沒有公開。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:19.163636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:36.675000+08:00","text":"我就舉這個例子來講，李冠德的事情都已經上新聞了，而且被檢舉，包含您剛剛講的，他可能有具名，而且有很多的事證提出來，如果你們調查兩個月以後，調查報告沒有辦法公開的話，對於社會上很多民眾是沒有辦法交代的。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:36.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:51.514286+08:00","text":"所以我想請問部長，你們能不能承諾本案接下來在調查小組調查完畢之後，在去識別化後，因為可能有些要依個資法的規定等等，在法律所允許的情況之下會把案情公開？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:54.600000+08:00","text":"因為我們總不希望今天在媒體上說，你看！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:55.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:00.600000+08:00","text":"被申訴之後施壓，到最後是有或沒有，你總要給社會一個交代跟說明吧？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:01.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:18.700000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為現在雙方的認知跟說明差距很大，所以要調查，不過我也是綜合跟委員報告，一個外交官的培養是很不容易的，外館也是在很大的壓力下工作，因為涉及到外交的戰場真的是沒有煙硝的戰爭……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:18.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:19.723077+08:00","text":"那你更不能去欺負同仁啊！","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:19.723077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:24.569231+08:00","text":"我能夠做的就是改善工作環境、讓申訴管道可以暢通以外……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:37.492308+08:00","text":"你剛剛這樣講，我要打斷你一下，因為你說外交官很難培養，如果他霸凌的人也是外交官，你把一個人培養起來，但這個人霸凌了五個人，這樣五個人的權益……","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:37.492308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:38.600000+08:00","text":"對，所以事實要釐清，也要符合比例原則，毋枉毋縱。","quality":0.15},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:38.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:57.646154+08:00","text":"對，大家都很辛苦，今天你可能覺得被檢舉的人工作很辛苦，但幫他工作的人也很辛苦，所以我還是要幫其他人發聲，今天之所以會有人來申訴，一定是有一些狀況，但是狀況嚴重與否、有沒有到達霸凌的界線，是你們調查小組要去做調查的。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:00.688889+08:00","text":"對，有些涉及非霸凌事項，有些涉及霸凌的部分。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:00.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:05.600000+08:00","text":"所以最後我希望可以得到一個承諾，就是本案到底調查小組會不會公開？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:07.618182+08:00","text":"你們調查完畢之後，能不能公開？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:07.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:11.550000+08:00","text":"我們尊重專案調查小組，整個程序在進行中，至於結果如何，我們一定是依法行政。","quality":0.485},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:12.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:15.577778+08:00","text":"什麼情況下會公開、什麼情況下會不公開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:20.514286+08:00","text":"因為現在才剛開始，我們就給專案調查小組一點時間和空間……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:20.514286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:21.514286+08:00","text":"我的問題不是這個，我的問題是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:20.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:24.466667+08:00","text":"我知道外界很關心，但是程序要走好。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:33+08:00","text":"對，當然，我沒有說程序不走好，但是你調查完之後，是什麼情況之下會不公開、什麼情況之下會公開，這一點你總是要給大家做一個說明。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:33.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:41.600000+08:00","text":"我們都有相關的規範，我們也讓專案調查小組……因為這些都是外部委員，很多都是具有專業經驗的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:41.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:44.436364+08:00","text":"所以你的規範要跟大家講一下，比如說到什麼程度以上……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:44.436364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:45.436364+08:00","text":"好，我們會有反應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:44.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:45.657143+08:00","text":"你現在要回復我啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:45.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:57.688889+08:00","text":"就是說，調查完之後，比如說，他霸凌有成立，成立的話，什麼程度以上你們的調查紀錄會公開，什麼程度以下是不會公開，這個應該是知道的吧？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:57.688889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:58.688889+08:00","text":"應該是有規範的吧？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:58.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:14.300000+08:00","text":"我覺得個案到具體這麼細，而且涉及到有沒有外交機密等等，我們要綜合去考量，一定要等這個程序走到一個階段，我現在真的沒有辦法講說Yes、No的問題，到底要公布到什麼程度，那個涉及到我們的外交業務，也請委員給我們一點空間。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:20.800000+08:00","text":"好，我覺得你講這個東西，就變成所有人都要因為你講說是不是涉及所謂的外交機密，我剛剛講了，你可以去識別化嘛！","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:20.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:24.085714+08:00","text":"不會啦，我們一定是保護當事人的權益，兩造都需要……","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:24.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:30.700000+08:00","text":"如果是機密，沒有人要你公開給大家，我舉個例子，這個人被申訴之後，有沒有去開會施壓人家？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:30.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:32.600000+08:00","text":"這個沒有涉及任何機密啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:32.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:33.633333+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:33.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:35.514286+08:00","text":"對，他們認知不一樣，我們也要去調查。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:50.425000+08:00","text":"對，我沒有否認你要去調查，我問的是在調查完以後，到底發生了什麼事情、這個人到底有沒有涉及霸凌、霸凌的程度是如何，我還是希望能夠給全民一個交代，因為這個事情都已經被眾多的人去做討論了，好不好？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:53.688889+08:00","text":"是，一定會有交代，但需要一點時間，我們來努力，謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:54.188889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:57.903175+08:00","text":"接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}