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那麼但是呢"},{"start":37.2,"end":39.56,"text":"在有關於這個犯罪被害人"},{"start":39.56,"end":41.34,"text":"訴訟權益保障的部分"},{"start":41.34,"end":42.94,"text":"那我因為本席也有看到"},{"start":42.94,"end":45,"text":"就是你對於我所提出的"},{"start":45,"end":47.2,"text":"有關於刑事訴訟法第310條"},{"start":47.2,"end":49.519999999999996,"text":"條文修正草案裡面一些內容"},{"start":49.519999999999996,"end":53.84,"text":"有表示不同的意見"},{"start":53.84,"end":55.620000000000005,"text":"那剛剛吳宗憲委員"},{"start":55.620000000000005,"end":57.980000000000004,"text":"其實也有幫我這個法案"},{"start":58,"end":60.14,"text":"也做了一些說明"},{"start":60.14,"end":61.64,"text":"那麼也認為說"},{"start":61.64,"end":64.64,"text":"司法院好像似乎擔心的太多了"},{"start":64.64,"end":67.47999999999999,"text":"那麼因為在我的這個法案裡面呢"},{"start":67.47999999999999,"end":69.47999999999999,"text":"我基本上是要求"},{"start":69.47999999999999,"end":71.42,"text":"就是有罪判決的理由當中"},{"start":71.42,"end":73.62,"text":"應該要記載訴訟參議人"},{"start":73.62,"end":76.86,"text":"以及他的代理人就證據的證明力"},{"start":76.86,"end":80.19999999999999,"text":"以及科行範圍所表示的意見"},{"start":80.19999999999999,"end":82.8,"text":"那麼為什麼要提出來這樣的一個修法"},{"start":82.8,"end":84.9,"text":"也是我們希望"},{"start":84.96000000000001,"end":88.06,"text":"法官可以真正的"},{"start":88.06,"end":92.30000000000001,"text":"聽盡犯罪被害人的意見"},{"start":92.30000000000001,"end":94.10000000000001,"text":"而且不僅是聽盡了"},{"start":94.10000000000001,"end":96.66000000000001,"text":"他還要真的要有所表示"},{"start":96.66000000000001,"end":99.80000000000001,"text":"否則我們很常常會看到的就是"},{"start":99.80000000000001,"end":101.58000000000001,"text":"就算是現在的刑刑法"},{"start":101.58000000000001,"end":104.84,"text":"賦予給被害人有訴訟參與權"},{"start":104.84,"end":105.78,"text":"那麼也"},{"start":105.78,"end":107.68,"text":"他們也能夠對於就是證據能力"},{"start":107.68,"end":110.34,"text":"以及科行範圍去表示意見"},{"start":110.34,"end":112.02000000000001,"text":"但是更多的狀況是"},{"start":112.03999999999999,"end":116.69999999999999,"text":"也許是法官有聽沒有盡"},{"start":116.69999999999999,"end":118.42,"text":"那麼事實上他到底"},{"start":118.42,"end":121.52,"text":"在他的真正的良行的過程當中"},{"start":121.52,"end":122.82,"text":"最後的決定是什麼"},{"start":122.82,"end":125.67999999999999,"text":"總是應該要給犯罪被害人一個交代"},{"start":125.67999999999999,"end":127.67999999999999,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我之所以"},{"start":127.67999999999999,"end":130.32,"text":"提出這個修法的原因"},{"start":130.32,"end":133.8,"text":"當然司法院這裡的擔心也不是沒有道理"},{"start":133.8,"end":137.4,"text":"可是我在想說總是有一個方法可以解決吧"},{"start":137.4,"end":139.35999999999999,"text":"就像是我們現在很多法院"},{"start":139.35999999999999,"end":140.7,"text":"判決書公開的時候"},{"start":140.7,"end":144.92,"text":"他都會有一些去識別化的一個作業的程序"},{"start":144.92,"end":146.14,"text":"那就這個部分的話"},{"start":146.14,"end":147.66,"text":"是不是可以請秘書長"},{"start":147.66,"end":150.66,"text":"我們一起來看看有沒有可能"},{"start":150.66,"end":154,"text":"在假設這個法案未來會通過的話"},{"start":154,"end":155.72,"text":"就是你們在做法上面"},{"start":155.72,"end":157.85999999999999,"text":"有什麼樣可以進一步改善的空間"},{"start":157.85999999999999,"end":159.85999999999999,"text":"柯P請你表達一下你的意見"},{"start":159.85999999999999,"end":161.17999999999998,"text":"真的要感謝委員"},{"start":161.17999999999998,"end":164.33999999999997,"text":"真的老實說這就在量刑的部分"},{"start":164.33999999999997,"end":165.94,"text":"其實記載被害人意見"},{"start":165.94,"end":168.06,"text":"跟證據證明利益的意見"},{"start":168.1,"end":171.62,"text":"其實他如果是不立被告"},{"start":171.62,"end":173.62,"text":"其實在整個論述的時候"},{"start":173.62,"end":175.02,"text":"他就會出現"},{"start":175.02,"end":177.82,"text":"那重點就是科行範圍的意見"},{"start":177.82,"end":180.54,"text":"那我們所表示的意見就是說"},{"start":180.54,"end":187.34,"text":"我們擔心如果要讓被害人所陳述的意見"},{"start":187.34,"end":189.5,"text":"字字句句都要出現的話"},{"start":189.5,"end":191.66,"text":"那絕對是有害的"},{"start":191.66,"end":195.82,"text":"那當然那個被害人在科行範圍"},{"start":195.85999999999999,"end":198.78,"text":"就是他的科行影響陳述的時候"},{"start":198.78,"end":200.06,"text":"很重要的部分"},{"start":200.06,"end":202.62,"text":"當然在判決書是應該要記載的"},{"start":202.62,"end":205.06,"text":"其實我們表達的意見是說"},{"start":205.06,"end":209.06,"text":"不可能把被害人所講的"},{"start":209.06,"end":212.29999999999998,"text":"尤其情緒激動那些話都放進去"},{"start":212.29999999999998,"end":213.42,"text":"這是我們擔憂的"},{"start":213.42,"end":214.94,"text":"因為我們其實當然"},{"start":214.94,"end":217.45999999999998,"text":"或許未來在逐條審查的時候"},{"start":217.45999999999998,"end":220.57999999999998,"text":"就法律就我們現在修法的文字內容"},{"start":220.57999999999998,"end":223.06,"text":"我也可以再做得更精準"},{"start":223.06,"end":224.1,"text":"因為我們這邊強調"},{"start":224.14,"end":226.78,"text":"當然不是做逐字稿"},{"start":226.78,"end":230.18,"text":"這個字句每一個字都要記載下去"},{"start":230.18,"end":233.01999999999998,"text":"他也可能可以透過一個篩選"},{"start":233.01999999999998,"end":235.98,"text":"以及與良心有關必要的陳述"},{"start":235.98,"end":238.94,"text":"用摘要這個陳述的方式來處理"},{"start":238.94,"end":241.57999999999998,"text":"所以這個是本席希望說"},{"start":241.57999999999998,"end":245.06,"text":"在推進訴訟被害人權益保障的部分"},{"start":245.06,"end":247.06,"text":"我們可以有更進一步"},{"start":247.06,"end":251.26,"text":"能夠提升相關被害人權益保障的一個做法"},{"start":251.26,"end":253.18,"text":"這個我們一定會做到"},{"start":253.22,"end":256.26,"text":"他會覺得說他在法庭上面的這些陳述"},{"start":256.26,"end":259.42,"text":"事實上法官是真的有聽進"},{"start":259.42,"end":262.5,"text":"而且同時也能夠依照他們"},{"start":262.5,"end":265.06,"text":"不管是贊成或是反對他們的意見"},{"start":265.06,"end":268.3,"text":"總是可以有讓他們知道說有一個理由"},{"start":268.3,"end":269.86,"text":"法官的理由到底是什麼"},{"start":269.86,"end":272.7,"text":"這個才能夠說服"},{"start":272.7,"end":275.86,"text":"或是讓當事人能夠信服這個判決"},{"start":275.86,"end":278.18,"text":"所以這個部分的話是本席希望"},{"start":278.18,"end":280.54,"text":"就是之後再進行逐條審查的時候"},{"start":280.58000000000004,"end":284.62,"text":"我們跟司法院這裡可以有更進一步的討論"},{"start":284.62,"end":286.62,"text":"然後大家可以看看在法庭文字上面"},{"start":286.62,"end":288.1,"text":"要怎麼樣的修正"},{"start":288.1,"end":291.38,"text":"我們很希望的就是說能夠保障被害人"},{"start":291.38,"end":293.90000000000003,"text":"他不是只是一個訴訟的陪襯"},{"start":293.90000000000003,"end":295.74,"text":"而是真正的能夠參與"},{"start":295.74,"end":297.5,"text":"這個也是我們這次修法裡面"},{"start":297.5,"end":299.98,"text":"我們希望能夠達成的目標"},{"start":299.98,"end":301.46000000000004,"text":"好那接下來就是說"},{"start":301.46000000000004,"end":302.98,"text":"當然我的第二個說法的重點"},{"start":302.98,"end":307.14000000000004,"text":"就是希望能夠減輕這個書記官的負擔"},{"start":307.18,"end":310.21999999999997,"text":"然後讓整個的這個裁判書的"},{"start":310.21999999999997,"end":312.9,"text":"判決的做成當中"},{"start":312.9,"end":317.18,"text":"可以減輕法官跟書記官等等的工作負擔"},{"start":317.18,"end":318.94,"text":"那我也看到就是秘書長"},{"start":318.94,"end":321.14,"text":"其實你現在有提出一個"},{"start":321.14,"end":324.06,"text":"就是司法院會成立一個全國電話中心"},{"start":324.06,"end":325.41999999999996,"text":"一個call center"},{"start":325.41999999999996,"end":327.86,"text":"那預計今年12月就會開始成立"},{"start":327.86,"end":330.53999999999996,"text":"就會開始測試明年1月成立"},{"start":330.53999999999996,"end":333.06,"text":"那這本席在這裡有幾個問題想請教"},{"start":333.06,"end":335.38,"text":"第一個就是你們有沒有已經編列預算了"},{"start":335.38,"end":336.86,"text":"對於call center的部分"},{"start":336.90000000000003,"end":339.58000000000004,"text":"你們在116年度有編進預算了嗎"},{"start":339.58000000000004,"end":340.62,"text":"是有編進的"},{"start":340.62,"end":344.38,"text":"要請大院支持已經編進預算"},{"start":344.38,"end":347.58000000000004,"text":"好因為其實本席也是支持這個call center"},{"start":347.58000000000004,"end":351.82,"text":"那當然就是如果說它的運作有成的話"},{"start":351.82,"end":354.62,"text":"它的確是可以減輕書記官的工作壓力"},{"start":354.62,"end":357.3,"text":"但是在這裡還是有幾個問題想請教的"},{"start":357.3,"end":360.02000000000004,"text":"就是說未來這個接電話"},{"start":360.02000000000004,"end":361.98,"text":"第一線的接電話的人員"},{"start":361.98,"end":364.62,"text":"他會是司法院編制內的約定過人員"},{"start":364.62,"end":366.3,"text":"還是他是一個標案"},{"start":366.3,"end":369.98,"text":"就是外包給外部的人員來做"},{"start":369.98,"end":373.06,"text":"因為這個人員的部分"},{"start":373.06,"end":375.82,"text":"他會涉及到就是說他接電話的這個品質"},{"start":375.82,"end":379.34000000000003,"text":"而且他是不是真的能夠去回覆民眾"},{"start":379.34000000000003,"end":382.7,"text":"尤其都是訴訟當事人他們的問題"},{"start":382.7,"end":385.58000000000004,"text":"譬如說是來打電話進來問說"},{"start":385.58000000000004,"end":387.82,"text":"他們的上述期限要怎麼去計算"},{"start":387.82,"end":392.62,"text":"或是補正的正本需要幾份等等這些問題"},{"start":392.62,"end":396.22,"text":"所以司法院有相關的人才培育計畫嗎"},{"start":396.22,"end":397.74,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":397.74,"end":401.54,"text":"因為關於我們不敢講它叫人才培訓"},{"start":401.54,"end":405.98,"text":"而是說你這個project到底要怎麼去完成"},{"start":405.98,"end":409.66,"text":"就如同委員講的到底誰要進來"},{"start":409.66,"end":412.78000000000003,"text":"其實跟委員坦白的講"},{"start":412.78000000000003,"end":414.86,"text":"其實我們不要忽視"},{"start":414.86,"end":419.9,"text":"其實世界各國甚至各公司關於電話中心"},{"start":419.97999999999996,"end":423.09999999999997,"text":"其實運作的非常成熟"},{"start":423.09999999999997,"end":425.21999999999997,"text":"再過來重要如委員所說的"},{"start":425.21999999999997,"end":428.21999999999997,"text":"你這些人要怎麼回覆問題"},{"start":428.21999999999997,"end":429.38,"text":"這個是訓練的問題"},{"start":429.38,"end":431.94,"text":"司法院要負起訓練的責任"},{"start":431.94,"end":433.53999999999996,"text":"我們沒辦法去招聘一堆人"},{"start":433.53999999999996,"end":436.46,"text":"可是我們可以請人家幫我們招聘一堆人"},{"start":436.46,"end":440.34,"text":"可這一群人絕對是要我們經過我們司法院訓練"},{"start":440.34,"end":441.97999999999996,"text":"而且跟委員報告"},{"start":441.97999999999996,"end":446.78,"text":"我們的司法行政廳現在已經在通盤檢討"},{"start":446.78,"end":450.46,"text":"我們total拿進了5000多個問題"},{"start":450.46,"end":451.65999999999997,"text":"這個都是要訓練的"},{"start":451.65999999999997,"end":453.7,"text":"所以說這個是"},{"start":453.7,"end":457.26,"text":"而且有的數據官他們會以為說"},{"start":457.26,"end":459.5,"text":"那將來有call center成立了"},{"start":459.5,"end":461.46,"text":"是不是還把電話丟給他們"},{"start":461.46,"end":465.34,"text":"這是我們絕對要築起一道牆"},{"start":465.34,"end":468.21999999999997,"text":"所以一定要在這邊能夠達成"},{"start":468.21999999999997,"end":469.85999999999996,"text":"好 謝謝秘書長說明"},{"start":469.85999999999996,"end":473.41999999999996,"text":"因為我想現在很多人基本上都有這種"},{"start":473.41999999999996,"end":475.46,"text":"被call center接聽進化的經驗"},{"start":475.46,"end":477.7,"text":"或是透過AI機器人接聽進化的經驗"},{"start":477.7,"end":479.94,"text":"譬如說是對於信用卡有問題"},{"start":479.94,"end":481.97999999999996,"text":"我的消費為什麼我感覺好像"},{"start":481.97999999999996,"end":484.5,"text":"其中是不是個帳單多了一筆"},{"start":484.5,"end":486.02,"text":"那麼以我自己個人經驗"},{"start":486.02,"end":487.26,"text":"或是我的親友的經驗"},{"start":487.26,"end":488.5,"text":"有時候打電話進去"},{"start":488.5,"end":490.06,"text":"聽到是機器人接電話"},{"start":490.06,"end":492.82,"text":"或者是這個自動的電話"},{"start":492.82,"end":495.82,"text":"一直按鍵按不同的鍵都要轉來轉去"},{"start":495.82,"end":498.17999999999995,"text":"然後最後乾脆算了就把電話掛了"},{"start":498.17999999999995,"end":501.38,"text":"因為大家還是覺得是能夠直接跟"},{"start":501.38,"end":503.46,"text":"真正的服務人員通電話"},{"start":503.5,"end":505.53999999999996,"text":"可以迅速的去解決這個問題"},{"start":505.53999999999996,"end":507.97999999999996,"text":"那我希望就是外來call center的成立"},{"start":507.97999999999996,"end":511.62,"text":"也能夠做到就是盡量不要讓當事人"},{"start":511.62,"end":514.18,"text":"覺得說我一直不斷的轉接轉接"},{"start":514.18,"end":516.34,"text":"然後轉接到最後乾脆放棄了"},{"start":516.34,"end":518.86,"text":"那這樣的話可能就不會有那個實益"},{"start":518.86,"end":521.34,"text":"所以這當然是需要你們12月的時候"},{"start":521.34,"end":522.18,"text":"做個測試"},{"start":522.18,"end":524.6999999999999,"text":"然後甚至可能多一兩個月的測試"},{"start":524.6999999999999,"end":527.06,"text":"然後盡量收集民眾的意見"},{"start":527.06,"end":527.8199999999999,"text":"當事人的意見"},{"start":527.8199999999999,"end":531.1,"text":"我覺得可以提升call center的效率"},{"start":531.1,"end":532.34,"text":"可是跟委員報告"},{"start":532.4200000000001,"end":534.34,"text":"如果不要機器人回答"},{"start":534.34,"end":535.9,"text":"要專人回答"},{"start":535.9,"end":537.1,"text":"就是費用的問題"},{"start":537.9,"end":538.22,"text":"是啦"},{"start":538.22,"end":540.4200000000001,"text":"不過就是最後總還是可能"},{"start":540.4200000000001,"end":541.9,"text":"我們一定要訓練到"},{"start":541.9,"end":544.62,"text":"還是到最後的階段需要"},{"start":544.62,"end":546.58,"text":"一定是不能專人回答"},{"start":546.58,"end":549.98,"text":"因為不可能那個機器人回答"},{"start":549.98,"end":551.82,"text":"是一個自試的"},{"start":551.82,"end":554.9,"text":"而法院的問題很多不是自試"},{"start":554.9,"end":556.7,"text":"好那麼接下來的本席"},{"start":556.7,"end":559.58,"text":"還有再問另外一個"},{"start":559.58,"end":560.58,"text":"剛剛前面的委員"},{"start":560.62,"end":562.74,"text":"剛剛林憲綺委員也有問到的"},{"start":562.74,"end":564.98,"text":"這個時事的新聞"},{"start":564.98,"end":567.98,"text":"就是講到就是2023年12月"},{"start":567.98,"end":569.86,"text":"新竹湖口一間早餐店"},{"start":569.86,"end":570.9000000000001,"text":"因為發生火災"},{"start":570.9000000000001,"end":574.0200000000001,"text":"所以29歲的消防員"},{"start":574.0200000000001,"end":576.14,"text":"他進入火場搜救"},{"start":576.14,"end":577.14,"text":"就不幸殉職"},{"start":577.14,"end":580.22,"text":"然後家屬當然就承受天然湧革之痛"},{"start":580.22,"end":581.62,"text":"那檢放調查之後"},{"start":581.62,"end":582.46,"text":"也認為說"},{"start":582.46,"end":585.82,"text":"其中就是兩名越南籍的移工"},{"start":585.82,"end":587.86,"text":"涉嫌因為抽菸"},{"start":587.86,"end":589.5400000000001,"text":"在當場引發火災"},{"start":589.54,"end":591.26,"text":"所以當時就以過失致死"},{"start":591.26,"end":593.6999999999999,"text":"公共危險等等這些罪起訴"},{"start":593.6999999999999,"end":597.5799999999999,"text":"那一審法院後來是判這兩名外籍"},{"start":597.5799999999999,"end":599.42,"text":"越南籍移工無罪"},{"start":599.42,"end":600.9399999999999,"text":"但是本席要強調的是"},{"start":600.9399999999999,"end":604.9,"text":"一審無罪不代表說他二審是無罪"},{"start":604.9,"end":607.18,"text":"所以檢察官對這個案子"},{"start":607.18,"end":608.98,"text":"他不服判決提起上訴"},{"start":608.98,"end":610.98,"text":"那這個案件"},{"start":610.98,"end":614.06,"text":"明明還在二審的審理當中"},{"start":614.06,"end":615.62,"text":"可是今年5月20號"},{"start":615.62,"end":617.9,"text":"移民署竟然就將這兩名被告"},{"start":617.9,"end":620.6999999999999,"text":"就強制驅逐出境送回越南"},{"start":620.6999999999999,"end":621.98,"text":"等到6月"},{"start":621.98,"end":624.4599999999999,"text":"高院開庭的時候才發現"},{"start":624.4599999999999,"end":627.4599999999999,"text":"這兩個犯罪嫌疑的這兩個被告"},{"start":627.4599999999999,"end":629.38,"text":"怎麼就不見了"},{"start":629.38,"end":630.78,"text":"那法院一查才知道說"},{"start":630.78,"end":633.26,"text":"這個人早就被移民署送出台灣"},{"start":633.26,"end":635.22,"text":"最後只能發布通緝令"},{"start":635.22,"end":638.3,"text":"那本席當然這邊要請教"},{"start":638.3,"end":639.9,"text":"這個秘書長"},{"start":639.9,"end":642.62,"text":"待會可能還要請教法務部黃次長的"},{"start":642.62,"end":644.9399999999999,"text":"就是說移民署的說法是說"},{"start":644.9399999999999,"end":647.62,"text":"因為他們在依法強制驅逐出境之前"},{"start":647.62,"end":649.58,"text":"曾經有通知司法機關"},{"start":649.58,"end":652.02,"text":"可是因為法院沒有羈押"},{"start":652.02,"end":653.34,"text":"也沒有限制出境"},{"start":653.34,"end":655.5,"text":"也沒有通知移民署暫緩執行"},{"start":655.5,"end":657.3,"text":"所以才把人送走"},{"start":657.3,"end":659.54,"text":"那麼如果說這個說法屬實的話"},{"start":659.54,"end":661.98,"text":"我們要第一個問司法院就是"},{"start":661.98,"end":664.82,"text":"為什麼法院"},{"start":664.82,"end":666.82,"text":"在收到移民署通知的時候"},{"start":666.82,"end":670.82,"text":"明明知道這兩名被告的案件還沒有確定"},{"start":670.82,"end":673.22,"text":"也知道二審就要開庭了"},{"start":673.22,"end":675.78,"text":"可是卻沒有採取任何的措施"},{"start":675.78,"end":677.5799999999999,"text":"這中間到底是發生什麼問題"},{"start":677.5799999999999,"end":679.8199999999999,"text":"是承辦的法院沒有注意到"},{"start":679.8199999999999,"end":682.18,"text":"還是說公文到了法院之後"},{"start":682.18,"end":684.66,"text":"卻沒有即時送到陳審法官"},{"start":684.66,"end":687.54,"text":"所以才出現了這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":687.54,"end":689.9,"text":"報告其實這個最大的原因"},{"start":689.9,"end":692.8199999999999,"text":"就是因為法官他在一審判無罪"},{"start":692.8199999999999,"end":694.38,"text":"判無罪以後"},{"start":694.38,"end":697.38,"text":"他的對人身自由的思考就會不一樣"},{"start":697.38,"end":701.98,"text":"所以他那時候就沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":701.98,"end":704.14,"text":"其實這個是第一審"},{"start":704.18,"end":707.8199999999999,"text":"如果說有瑕疵就在這個地方"},{"start":707.8199999999999,"end":709.78,"text":"那因為沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":709.78,"end":711.74,"text":"那當然移民署它一規定"},{"start":711.74,"end":714.14,"text":"可是問題是檢察官已經提起上訴"},{"start":714.14,"end":716.98,"text":"而且二審法院也已經要排"},{"start":716.98,"end":718.5,"text":"都已經排了庭了"},{"start":718.5,"end":722.14,"text":"那這件事情為什麼都沒有讓移民署知道呢"},{"start":722.14,"end":724.22,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告就說"},{"start":724.22,"end":727.02,"text":"在法官排庭之前他就不在了"},{"start":727.02,"end":728.8199999999999,"text":"他就出去了"},{"start":728.8199999999999,"end":730.06,"text":"那提的最重要就是"},{"start":730.06,"end":733.5,"text":"一審沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":733.54,"end":734.46,"text":"如果有限制"},{"start":734.46,"end":738.22,"text":"真的這個是整個程序裡面要講瑕疵"},{"start":738.22,"end":738.98,"text":"是在這個地方"},{"start":738.98,"end":741.42,"text":"所以變得說是可能是一審的法官"},{"start":741.42,"end":745.3,"text":"當時沒有做限制出海的這樣的一個處分"},{"start":745.3,"end":746.66,"text":"那但是問題是說"},{"start":746.66,"end":749.02,"text":"接下來可能要請黃次長"},{"start":753.9,"end":755.38,"text":"因為在這個案件當中"},{"start":755.38,"end":757.82,"text":"其實檢察官他已經提起上訴了"},{"start":757.82,"end":759.9,"text":"那檢察官提起上訴的時候"},{"start":759.9,"end":761.66,"text":"為什麼沒有同時申請"},{"start":761.9,"end":764.06,"text":"要針對這兩名"},{"start":764.06,"end":767.74,"text":"月級的移工要申請限制出境出海"},{"start":767.74,"end":768.4599999999999,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":768.4599999999999,"end":772.3,"text":"在案件在審理當中的強制處分權"},{"start":772.3,"end":774.6999999999999,"text":"是屬於法官所擁有的"},{"start":774.6999999999999,"end":776.3399999999999,"text":"可是你們也可以申請吧"},{"start":776.3399999999999,"end":777.8199999999999,"text":"我們可以促請法官"},{"start":777.8199999999999,"end":778.5799999999999,"text":"對 你們促請"},{"start":778.5799999999999,"end":780.4599999999999,"text":"你們有促請嗎"},{"start":780.4599999999999,"end":783.06,"text":"這個案我沒有清楚他們促請"},{"start":783.06,"end":785.1,"text":"但是這個整個過程當中"},{"start":785.1,"end":788.62,"text":"事實上法院就被告的保全"},{"start":788.62,"end":790.02,"text":"應該是要法院來做處理"},{"start":790.34,"end":793.06,"text":"假如法官讓他促請法官做這件事情"},{"start":793.06,"end":794.1,"text":"那這個案上有沒有促請"},{"start":794.1,"end":795.22,"text":"我們回家查看看"},{"start":795.22,"end":797.66,"text":"不過因為這個案子的確是很荒謬"},{"start":797.66,"end":801.06,"text":"不好意思 還要再請告秘書長"},{"start":802.78,"end":804.3,"text":"因為事實上就是說"},{"start":804.3,"end":806.14,"text":"我們可以知道說這個環節"},{"start":806.14,"end":807.9,"text":"當然一方面就在於就是說"},{"start":807.9,"end":809.9399999999999,"text":"機關的橫向聯繫不夠"},{"start":809.9399999999999,"end":813.26,"text":"那二方面就是可能也涉及到移民法的規定"},{"start":813.26,"end":816.02,"text":"因為移民法第36條第三項的規定是說"},{"start":816.02,"end":818.74,"text":"移民署如果知道外國人涉及刑事案件"},{"start":818.74,"end":820.3,"text":"已經進入司法程序"},{"start":820.3,"end":825.34,"text":"他在強制驅逐出國的十天前"},{"start":825.34,"end":827.1800000000001,"text":"要通知司法機關"},{"start":827.1800000000001,"end":829.38,"text":"但是只要是沒有依法羈押具體管"},{"start":829.38,"end":830.58,"text":"受獲限制出國的話"},{"start":830.58,"end":833.54,"text":"移民署是得強制驅逐出境"},{"start":833.54,"end":836.66,"text":"所以就在這裡就發生了一個問題就是"},{"start":836.66,"end":837.98,"text":"這個得的這個字"},{"start":837.98,"end":839.98,"text":"當然移民署今天他可以主張"},{"start":839.98,"end":843.54,"text":"就是說因為你們法院確實也沒有限制"},{"start":843.54,"end":845.58,"text":"出海出境的這個處分"},{"start":845.58,"end":847.42,"text":"所以他認為說沒有什麼問題"},{"start":847.4599999999999,"end":849.5,"text":"那他就是直接放人了"},{"start":849.5,"end":852.86,"text":"可是對於我們像類似這種案件"},{"start":852.86,"end":854.62,"text":"他可能會事後會"},{"start":854.62,"end":857.3,"text":"他之後可能會涉及到"},{"start":857.3,"end":858.8199999999999,"text":"這二審還要繼續判"},{"start":858.8199999999999,"end":861.06,"text":"還要繼續審"},{"start":861.06,"end":864.8199999999999,"text":"但是現在已經被告都已經逃出國外了"},{"start":864.8199999999999,"end":865.9399999999999,"text":"都已經放出國外"},{"start":865.9399999999999,"end":866.9399999999999,"text":"他不能講逃出國外"},{"start":866.9399999999999,"end":868.6999999999999,"text":"他是被放出國外了"},{"start":868.6999999999999,"end":871.0999999999999,"text":"他有可能會再回來接受審判嗎"},{"start":874.9399999999999,"end":876.3,"text":"應該不會了"},{"start":876.3399999999999,"end":878.74,"text":"基本依照我們的禁業法則來講"},{"start":878.74,"end":881.38,"text":"他幾乎不可能會再自己"},{"start":881.38,"end":883.66,"text":"回到台灣來接受審判"},{"start":883.66,"end":885.8599999999999,"text":"所以難怪這個訓職的消防署"},{"start":885.8599999999999,"end":887.9,"text":"消防員的家屬"},{"start":887.9,"end":890.0999999999999,"text":"他悲憤的表示說"},{"start":890.0999999999999,"end":891.2199999999999,"text":"這些外籍勞工"},{"start":891.2199999999999,"end":893.74,"text":"這兩名外籍勞工又不是笨蛋"},{"start":893.74,"end":895.18,"text":"被告回到越南之後"},{"start":895.18,"end":897.66,"text":"根本不可能再回到台灣受審了"},{"start":897.66,"end":899.8599999999999,"text":"發布通緝根本是於事無補"},{"start":899.8599999999999,"end":902.06,"text":"所以像這樣的一個情況的話"},{"start":902.06,"end":905.18,"text":"那類似這個案子之後是要怎麼結呢"},{"start":907.14,"end":908.14,"text":"對請教"},{"start":908.14,"end":909.26,"text":"二審已經判決了"},{"start":909.26,"end":911.02,"text":"因為他可以被告可以不到庭"},{"start":911.02,"end":912.38,"text":"就直接判決了"},{"start":912.38,"end":913.26,"text":"就直接判決"},{"start":913.26,"end":915.62,"text":"但是判決的話也不可能有任何的"},{"start":915.62,"end":917.38,"text":"對執行的問題"},{"start":917.38,"end":917.9799999999999,"text":"會出自己"},{"start":917.9799999999999,"end":920.38,"text":"對所以這個的確是出現了"},{"start":920.38,"end":922.9399999999999,"text":"就我們看到不管是在法律漏洞"},{"start":922.9399999999999,"end":925.4599999999999,"text":"或者是說在整個司法實務的"},{"start":925.4599999999999,"end":928.5,"text":"橫向的連線上面也出現了很大的漏洞"},{"start":928.5,"end":931.18,"text":"那像現在這個問題的話就是"},{"start":931.18,"end":933.3,"text":"我當然本期這邊建議了"},{"start":933.3,"end":934.62,"text":"未來一定要建立這"},{"start":934.66,"end":936.7,"text":"跨機關資訊的勾集機制"},{"start":936.7,"end":938.86,"text":"剛剛林慶琦委員這裡有提到"},{"start":938.86,"end":942.62,"text":"尤其是我們現在台灣的外籍勞工"},{"start":942.62,"end":945.18,"text":"合法的外籍勞工大概就三十萬人"},{"start":945.18,"end":949.02,"text":"然後非法的外籍勞工大概是十萬人左右"},{"start":949.02,"end":952.86,"text":"那麼難免一定會有類似的相關的犯罪案件的發生"},{"start":952.86,"end":954.14,"text":"那麼如果說類似"},{"start":954.14,"end":956.82,"text":"如果再有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":956.82,"end":958.82,"text":"到時候不能夠追究"},{"start":958.82,"end":960.1800000000001,"text":"不能夠推責"},{"start":960.1800000000001,"end":962.94,"text":"不能卸責法院說這不是我的責任"},{"start":962.98,"end":965.46,"text":"然後檢察官這裡也說不是我的責任"},{"start":965.46,"end":967.46,"text":"然後移民署也說這不是我的責任"},{"start":967.46,"end":970.34,"text":"那到底這個責任該是誰去扛"},{"start":970.34,"end":972.0600000000001,"text":"該去追究哪一個機關"},{"start":972.0600000000001,"end":973.6600000000001,"text":"我認為說這個部分要"},{"start":973.6600000000001,"end":978.1400000000001,"text":"趕快的去進行一個跨部會的協調"},{"start":978.1400000000001,"end":980.22,"text":"我們希望能夠儘速的"},{"start":980.22,"end":982.58,"text":"能夠把這個漏洞填補起來"},{"start":982.58,"end":985.1,"text":"在法律還沒有完成修正之前"},{"start":985.1,"end":988.1400000000001,"text":"是不是法務部跟司法院都可以"},{"start":988.1400000000001,"end":990.34,"text":"答應你們可以儘速的啟動"},{"start":990.34,"end":992.22,"text":"和內政部移民署這裡"},{"start":992.22,"end":994.4200000000001,"text":"啟動這個相關的協調機制"},{"start":994.4200000000001,"end":995.74,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":995.74,"end":998.98,"text":"好的那麼當然對於就是"},{"start":998.98,"end":1001.86,"text":"到底是一審法官那裡有出了問題"},{"start":1001.86,"end":1002.9,"text":"還是到二審"},{"start":1002.9,"end":1005.5,"text":"這個在法院的內部程序裡面"},{"start":1005.5,"end":1007.6600000000001,"text":"是不是也出現了漏洞匣子"},{"start":1007.6600000000001,"end":1010.02,"text":"我希望司法院還是可以針對這個案子"},{"start":1010.02,"end":1011.5,"text":"去進行一個檢討"},{"start":1011.5,"end":1012.74,"text":"那麼因為看起來"},{"start":1012.74,"end":1015.7,"text":"我覺得這個一審法官好像在對於這個外籍"},{"start":1015.7,"end":1017.9,"text":"移工沒有做出限制"},{"start":1017.9,"end":1020.5,"text":"出境出海的這個事情上面"},{"start":1020.54,"end":1022.54,"text":"是不是也有些疏失"},{"start":1022.54,"end":1024.26,"text":"相關審辦法官未來"},{"start":1024.26,"end":1026.26,"text":"需不需要進入到法官評鑑"},{"start":1026.26,"end":1028.66,"text":"只能去做討論"},{"start":1028.66,"end":1030.9,"text":"我希望司法院可以針對這個案子"},{"start":1030.9,"end":1031.9,"text":"再做個檢討"},{"start":1031.9,"end":1033.7,"text":"因為這真的是個案的法官"},{"start":1033.7,"end":1035.54,"text":"在個案判斷的瑕疵"},{"start":1035.54,"end":1037.42,"text":"至於要不要進評鑑"},{"start":1037.42,"end":1038.7,"text":"那當然是另外一回事"},{"start":1038.7,"end":1042.06,"text":"因為就是因為假設有出現瑕疵的話"},{"start":1042.06,"end":1044.18,"text":"那當然可能可以進到法官評鑑"},{"start":1044.18,"end":1045.7,"text":"委員會裡面去做討論"},{"start":1045.7,"end":1047.7,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":1047.7,"end":1049.86,"text":"因為這法官在個案的判決上面"},{"start":1049.86,"end":1050.62,"text":"出現問題"},{"start":1050.62,"end":1052.62,"text":"然後司法院都"},{"start":1052.62,"end":1054.4199999999998,"text":"都不理不睬"},{"start":1054.4199999999998,"end":1056.5,"text":"或是說認為說這個沒有什麼關係"},{"start":1056.5,"end":1058.5,"text":"他只不過只是犯了一個小小的錯誤"},{"start":1058.5,"end":1059.5,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":1059.5,"end":1060.6999999999998,"text":"重點是"},{"start":1060.6999999999998,"end":1063.1799999999998,"text":"除非我們要感動審判核心"},{"start":1063.1799999999998,"end":1065.86,"text":"司法行政可不可以動審判核心"},{"start":1065.86,"end":1067.6999999999998,"text":"這是我們最大家對的"},{"start":1067.6999999999998,"end":1070.82,"text":"這次就是自從您擔任律師長"},{"start":1070.82,"end":1073.3,"text":"來立法院就是備詢之後"},{"start":1073.3,"end":1076.02,"text":"我常常認為說您都會用審判核心"},{"start":1076.02,"end":1077.4599999999998,"text":"來當成一個"},{"start":1077.5,"end":1078.8600000000001,"text":"卸責的一個藉口"},{"start":1078.8600000000001,"end":1080.54,"text":"我認為說法官審判核心"},{"start":1080.54,"end":1081.7,"text":"我們一定要予以尊重"},{"start":1081.7,"end":1085.14,"text":"但是這審判核心也不是無限上綱"},{"start":1085.14,"end":1086.46,"text":"對 否則的話為什麼會"},{"start":1086.46,"end":1088.78,"text":"還是會看到有很多的裁判"},{"start":1088.78,"end":1090.94,"text":"判決是有瑕疵的"},{"start":1090.94,"end":1093.7,"text":"然後被高院或是甚至被憲法法院"},{"start":1093.7,"end":1095.7,"text":"認為說是有瑕疵"},{"start":1095.7,"end":1097.06,"text":"所以就"},{"start":1097.06,"end":1098.74,"text":"就發揮"},{"start":1098.74,"end":1101.06,"text":"發揮審判或甚至認為說"},{"start":1101.06,"end":1102.98,"text":"他是個違憲的判決等等的"},{"start":1102.98,"end":1105.3400000000001,"text":"所以就這個案子來說的話"},{"start":1105.4199999999998,"end":1106.74,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":1106.74,"end":1107.8999999999999,"text":"委員所提的例"},{"start":1107.8999999999999,"end":1109.54,"text":"如果是重大瑕疵"},{"start":1109.54,"end":1111.74,"text":"是一定送自律的"},{"start":1111.74,"end":1114.4199999999998,"text":"並不是那麼簡單的"},{"start":1114.4199999999998,"end":1115.86,"text":"那其實這個跟"},{"start":1115.86,"end":1117.62,"text":"如同委員所說的"},{"start":1117.62,"end":1122.06,"text":"他制度上是有個地方是可以彌補的"},{"start":1122.06,"end":1124.74,"text":"那我們也不能說全部都是審判核心"},{"start":1124.74,"end":1126.4599999999998,"text":"我們也要從制度上去彌補"},{"start":1126.4599999999998,"end":1127.1799999999998,"text":"簡單來說"},{"start":1127.1799999999998,"end":1128.3,"text":"我們如果說從民法的"},{"start":1128.3,"end":1130.1,"text":"善良管理人的角度來看的話"},{"start":1130.1,"end":1131.82,"text":"就法官他今天有沒有進入到"},{"start":1132.5,"end":1135.34,"text":"進到善良管理人的注意的義務"},{"start":1135.34,"end":1136.74,"text":"包含檢察官也是一樣"},{"start":1136.74,"end":1138.06,"text":"都其實非常上述的"},{"start":1138.06,"end":1138.86,"text":"總是要去了解"},{"start":1138.86,"end":1140.86,"text":"現在這個被告的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":1140.86,"end":1143.6599999999999,"text":"所以因為法官跟檢察官是具有"},{"start":1143.6599999999999,"end":1148.74,"text":"高度專業知識的司法人員"},{"start":1148.74,"end":1150.26,"text":"跟一般的老百姓不一樣"},{"start":1150.26,"end":1152.82,"text":"所以我們當然這邊是有資格"},{"start":1152.82,"end":1154.86,"text":"資格要求"},{"start":1154.86,"end":1157.26,"text":"司法人員要"},{"start":1157.26,"end":1160.1399999999999,"text":"更能夠善盡他的注意的義務"},{"start":1160.1399999999999,"end":1160.7,"text":"好不好"},{"start":1160.78,"end":1163.06,"text":"好 那接下來還有一個問題就是"},{"start":1163.06,"end":1165.1000000000001,"text":"跟這個大法官"},{"start":1165.1000000000001,"end":1167.82,"text":"憲判自113號"},{"start":1167.82,"end":1172.46,"text":"113年的憲判自8號的問題有關"},{"start":1172.46,"end":1175.74,"text":"那這裡的話可能要跟黃次長"},{"start":1175.74,"end":1180.06,"text":"可能請這個秘書長先回座"},{"start":1180.06,"end":1181.94,"text":"好"},{"start":1181.94,"end":1183.8600000000001,"text":"我們知道其實是法院憲法法庭"},{"start":1183.8600000000001,"end":1186.18,"text":"在113年他做成了"},{"start":1186.18,"end":1188.22,"text":"憲判自8號判決之後"},{"start":1188.22,"end":1189.42,"text":"針對感染申請人"},{"start":1189.42,"end":1191.22,"text":"因為死刑確定案件"},{"start":1191.22,"end":1194.34,"text":"就創設了可以請求檢察總長"},{"start":1194.34,"end":1198.14,"text":"提起特別非常上述的個案究竟情形"},{"start":1198.14,"end":1199.58,"text":"那麼這個部分"},{"start":1199.58,"end":1203.9,"text":"事實上我看到了最高檢察長"},{"start":1203.9,"end":1206.9,"text":"這邊陸續對於五位死囚"},{"start":1206.9,"end":1209.78,"text":"提出了非常上述"},{"start":1209.78,"end":1211.14,"text":"那麼當時"},{"start":1211.14,"end":1213.14,"text":"那現在是還有多少位"},{"start":1213.14,"end":1215.02,"text":"還沒有這個提起"},{"start":1215.02,"end":1215.82,"text":"就非常上述"},{"start":1215.82,"end":1217.18,"text":"還是說全部都已經提起"},{"start":1217.18,"end":1218.18,"text":"也非常上述了"},{"start":1218.18,"end":1218.98,"text":"沒有"},{"start":1218.98,"end":1221.98,"text":"目前除了有一位已經執行完畢"},{"start":1221.98,"end":1223.98,"text":"還有一位已經死亡之外"},{"start":1223.98,"end":1226.78,"text":"其他的總長大概提了四五位"},{"start":1226.78,"end":1228.18,"text":"提起非常上述"},{"start":1228.18,"end":1231.38,"text":"那其他的都還在檢察總長審核當中"},{"start":1231.38,"end":1233.5800000000002,"text":"是不是可以請次長給我一份"},{"start":1233.5800000000002,"end":1234.78,"text":"書面的報告"},{"start":1234.78,"end":1235.98,"text":"就是說是對你們現在"},{"start":1235.98,"end":1238.98,"text":"到底這31名死囚的處理的情況"},{"start":1238.98,"end":1239.5800000000002,"text":"是怎麼樣"},{"start":1239.5800000000002,"end":1239.98,"text":"好沒問題"},{"start":1239.98,"end":1241.98,"text":"那所以本席醫生要講就是說是"},{"start":1241.98,"end":1243.98,"text":"因為剛次長也提到"},{"start":1243.98,"end":1245.98,"text":"因為有一名死囚已經過世了"},{"start":1245.98,"end":1246.78,"text":"對"},{"start":1246.78,"end":1248.78,"text":"那麼這名死囚是二十多年前"},{"start":1248.78,"end":1251.58,"text":"曾經犯下戮人勒贖撕票分屍"},{"start":1251.58,"end":1255.98,"text":"早就被判處死刑定讞的受刑人歐陽蓉"},{"start":1255.98,"end":1257.98,"text":"那因為他長期沒有執行死刑"},{"start":1257.98,"end":1260.98,"text":"最後死在這個病死獄中"},{"start":1260.98,"end":1262.3799999999999,"text":"可是荒謬的是"},{"start":1262.3799999999999,"end":1264.18,"text":"我們檢察總長還必須依法"},{"start":1264.18,"end":1266.78,"text":"為這位已經死亡的死刑犯"},{"start":1266.78,"end":1269.58,"text":"來提起非常上述"},{"start":1269.58,"end":1271.98,"text":"這是不是真的還蠻荒謬的"},{"start":1271.98,"end":1273.3799999999999,"text":"他都已經過世了"},{"start":1273.3799999999999,"end":1275.3799999999999,"text":"而理由不是因為他有沒有犯罪"},{"start":1275.38,"end":1277.5800000000002,"text":"而是因為現在的113年"},{"start":1277.5800000000002,"end":1281.5800000000002,"text":"現判自8號所要求的一致決"},{"start":1281.5800000000002,"end":1283.38,"text":"所以變成說我們的檢察總長"},{"start":1283.38,"end":1286.38,"text":"還要為一位已經病死於獄中的死囚"},{"start":1286.38,"end":1288.38,"text":"然後去翻他過去的案件"},{"start":1288.38,"end":1290.18,"text":"看看當時的判決書裡面"},{"start":1290.18,"end":1291.7800000000002,"text":"是不是法官一致決"},{"start":1291.7800000000002,"end":1293.7800000000002,"text":"那本席是認為說"},{"start":1293.7800000000002,"end":1295.7800000000002,"text":"對於像這樣的一個情況"},{"start":1295.7800000000002,"end":1297.7800000000002,"text":"就凸顯出113年"},{"start":1297.7800000000002,"end":1300.18,"text":"現判自8號的一個荒謬"},{"start":1300.18,"end":1302.18,"text":"就他非常在意的是"},{"start":1302.18,"end":1304.18,"text":"程序上面的正義"},{"start":1304.18,"end":1307.18,"text":"可是卻沒有注意到所謂的實體的正義"},{"start":1307.18,"end":1310.18,"text":"我們很期待就是國家的高階"},{"start":1310.18,"end":1312.18,"text":"這些法律精英"},{"start":1312.18,"end":1315.18,"text":"應該他要把他的心力去投入"},{"start":1315.18,"end":1318.18,"text":"在去發現真實"},{"start":1318.18,"end":1319.5800000000002,"text":"發現這事實證據"},{"start":1319.5800000000002,"end":1323.5800000000002,"text":"而不是為了這種程序上面的瑕疵"},{"start":1323.5800000000002,"end":1326.5800000000002,"text":"然後去翻舊帳"},{"start":1326.5800000000002,"end":1329.5800000000002,"text":"到底當時的每一審的法官"},{"start":1329.5800000000002,"end":1331.5800000000002,"text":"是不是都有一致決"},{"start":1331.5800000000002,"end":1333.5800000000002,"text":"其實這是蠻荒謬的事情"},{"start":1333.58,"end":1340.58,"text":"那至少就是次長對於113年現判自8號的判決"},{"start":1340.58,"end":1346.58,"text":"對於你們現在高檢署實際上的失誤的影響"},{"start":1346.58,"end":1348.58,"text":"有沒有增加你們的一些負擔"},{"start":1348.58,"end":1350.58,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":1350.58,"end":1352.58,"text":"那總長他因為18現判出來了"},{"start":1352.58,"end":1354.58,"text":"他有憲法未接的效力"},{"start":1354.58,"end":1356.58,"text":"所以就總長來講"},{"start":1356.58,"end":1358.58,"text":"他也是要依照憲法一致去做相關的審核"},{"start":1358.58,"end":1360.58,"text":"那當然這個案子他提非常上述說"},{"start":1360.58,"end":1362.58,"text":"最高法院得依法判決"},{"start":1362.58,"end":1366.58,"text":"這是總長跟法官他都要各盡他法律上的職責"},{"start":1366.58,"end":1368.58,"text":"那所以如果說"},{"start":1368.58,"end":1369.58,"text":"我們今天講這個狀況"},{"start":1369.58,"end":1372.58,"text":"如果說我們剛剛講那個病史獄中的死刑犯"},{"start":1372.58,"end":1375.58,"text":"然後你們去翻他過去的判決書"},{"start":1375.58,"end":1379.58,"text":"果然發現曾經有一審法院的判決書裡面"},{"start":1379.58,"end":1381.58,"text":"然後有一位法官沒有同意"},{"start":1381.58,"end":1383.58,"text":"那所以這次案子是要怎麼樣"},{"start":1383.58,"end":1385.58,"text":"要重審嗎"},{"start":1385.58,"end":1387.58,"text":"按照118現判8"},{"start":1387.58,"end":1389.58,"text":"他沒有要求歷審每一次"},{"start":1389.58,"end":1391.58,"text":"他只要最後一次確定審"},{"start":1391.58,"end":1393.58,"text":"只要是最後一次確定審"},{"start":1393.58,"end":1395.58,"text":"他不是說要歷審嗎"},{"start":1395.58,"end":1396.58,"text":"不是"},{"start":1396.58,"end":1398.58,"text":"所以你們現在只去檢視他最後一次"},{"start":1398.58,"end":1401.58,"text":"最後對他確定三審說是有事件"},{"start":1401.58,"end":1405.58,"text":"這個好像跟我對於憲判8號的這個理解不太一樣"},{"start":1405.58,"end":1407.58,"text":"不過就是總之啦"},{"start":1407.58,"end":1410.58,"text":"就是對於13年憲判第8號判決所衍生的大量"},{"start":1410.58,"end":1413.58,"text":"非常上述再審以及救濟的案件"},{"start":1413.58,"end":1416.58,"text":"法務部現在已經進行全面盤點了嗎"},{"start":1416.58,"end":1418.58,"text":"你們現在盤點的進度是如何"},{"start":1418.58,"end":1420.58,"text":"跟憲判8號有關係的"},{"start":1420.58,"end":1422.58,"text":"那都是總長在進行盤點"},{"start":1422.58,"end":1424.58,"text":"因為這是總長的職責"},{"start":1424.58,"end":1426.58,"text":"總長要不要提到上是總長的職責"},{"start":1426.58,"end":1428.58,"text":"所以總長他是陸續在提"},{"start":1428.58,"end":1430.58,"text":"所以剛剛委員有提到有四五件已經提了"},{"start":1430.58,"end":1432.58,"text":"就是他陸續提出來的結果"},{"start":1432.58,"end":1434.58,"text":"好那本席希望說"},{"start":1434.58,"end":1437.58,"text":"這個可以提供給本席一份書面報告"},{"start":1437.58,"end":1440.58,"text":"我想了解就是說到底這個判決的影響"},{"start":1440.58,"end":1443.58,"text":"然後現在這個最高檢這邊"},{"start":1443.58,"end":1445.58,"text":"總長這裡他們"},{"start":1445.58,"end":1447.58,"text":"其實因為是代理總長"},{"start":1447.58,"end":1450.58,"text":"代理總長現在他們這裡做的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":1450.58,"end":1452.58,"text":"還有講到代理檢察總長"},{"start":1452.58,"end":1454.58,"text":"本席要順便請教就是"},{"start":1454.58,"end":1456.58,"text":"現在總統有在進行"},{"start":1456.58,"end":1459.58,"text":"檢察總長候選人的提名作業嗎"},{"start":1459.58,"end":1461.58,"text":"這部分我是總長的職權"},{"start":1461.58,"end":1463.58,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":1463.58,"end":1465.58,"text":"所以法務部這邊也沒有任何訊息"},{"start":1465.58,"end":1467.58,"text":"至少我本人沒有"},{"start":1467.58,"end":1469.58,"text":"至少你沒有"},{"start":1469.58,"end":1471.58,"text":"本席當然在這邊還是呼籲"},{"start":1471.58,"end":1473.58,"text":"希望現在總統能夠儘速提出"},{"start":1473.58,"end":1475.58,"text":"檢察總長人選的名單"},{"start":1475.58,"end":1477.58,"text":"不要耽誤"},{"start":1477.58,"end":1481.58,"text":"整個檢察總長的職權的這些行使"},{"start":1481.58,"end":1483.58,"text":"好以上謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:24:01.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:24:04.867273+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，首先有請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:24:10.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:24:10.020000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:24:10.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:24:11.268000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:24:12.277143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:24:50.300000+08:00","text":"這次的刑事訴訟法修正草案，本席也提了三個不同的案子，就簡化刑事訴訟程序、簡化裁判書製作的部分，我想秘書長應該會支持我的法案，但是在有關於犯罪被害人訴訟權益保障的部分，本席也有看到，你們對於我所提出的有關於刑事訴訟法第三百十條條文修正草案裡面一些內容，有表示不同的意見。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:24:51.062500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:25:16.921667+08:00","text":"剛剛吳宗憲委員也有幫我這個法案做了一些說明，認為司法院似乎擔心得太多了，因為在我的法案裡面，基本上我是要求有罪判決的理由當中應該要記載訴訟參與人及其代理人就證據證明力及科刑範圍所表示的意見。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:25:17.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:25:19.637500+08:00","text":"為什麼要提出這樣的修法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:25:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:07.026667+08:00","text":"也是我們希望法官可以真正聽進犯罪被害人的意見，而且不僅是聽進了，他還真的要有所表示，否則我們常常看到的是，就算現在的現行法賦予被害人有訴訟參與權，他們也能夠對於證據能力及科刑範圍去表示意見，但更多的狀況是，也許是法官有聽沒有進，事實上，到底在他真正的量刑過程當中最後的決定是什麼，總應該要給犯罪被害人一個交代，這就是我之所以提出這個修法的原因。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:07.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:14.200000+08:00","text":"當然司法院的擔心也不是沒有道理，可是我在想，總是有一個方法可以解決吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:14.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:21.685556+08:00","text":"就像現在很多法院判決書公開的時候都會有一些去識別化的作業程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:22.072500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:34.707143+08:00","text":"就這個部分，是不是可以請秘書長，我們一起來看看有沒有可能在假設這個法案未來會通過的話，你們在做法上面有什麼樣可以進一步改善的空間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:35.193333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:36.693333+08:00","text":"可不可以請你表達一下你的意見？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:36.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:37.991429+08:00","text":"真的感謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:38.666154+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:26:54.586667+08:00","text":"老實說，這就在量刑的部分，記載被害人意見跟證據證明力的意見，如果是不利被告，在整個論述的時候就會出現，重點就是科刑範圍的意見。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:26:55.046667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:27:08.351429+08:00","text":"至於我們所表示的意見，我們擔心如果要讓被害人所陳述的意見字字句句都要出現的話，那絕對是有害的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:27:08.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:27:19.423077+08:00","text":"當然被害人在科刑範圍，就是科刑影響陳述的時候，很重要的部分當然在判決書是應該要記載的。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:27:19.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:27:30.260000+08:00","text":"其實我們表達的意見是，不可能把被害人所講的，尤其是情緒激動下說的那些話都放進去，這是我們擔憂的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:27:30.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:27:55.712308+08:00","text":"是，我曉得，或許未來在逐條審查時候，就現在修法的文字內容也可以再做得更精準，因為我們這邊強調的是，當然不是做逐字稿，每一個字都一定要記載下去，也可能可以透過篩選以及與量刑有關的必要陳述，用摘要陳述的方式來處理。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:27:57.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:28:08.026667+08:00","text":"本席希望在推進訴訟被害人權益保障的部分，我們可以有更進一步能夠提升相關被害人權益保障的做法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:28:08.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:28:09.966667+08:00","text":"這個我們一定可以做到。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:28:10.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:28:32.634286+08:00","text":"畢竟這對當事人來講，他會覺得他在法庭上面的這些陳述，事實上法官是真的有聽進，而且同時也能夠依照他們……不管是贊成或反對他們的意見，總是可以讓他們知道有一個理由，即法官的理由到底是什麼，這才能夠說服或是讓當事人能夠信服這個判決。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:28:33.216923+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:28:44.888571+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，本席希望之後在進行逐條審查的時後，我們跟司法院可以有更進一步的討論，然後大家可以看看在法條文字上面要怎麼修正。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:28:45.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:28:56.754545+08:00","text":"我們很希望能夠保障被害人，他不是只是一個訴訟的陪襯，而是真正能夠參與，這也是這次修法裡面我們希望能夠達成的目標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:28:57.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:13.928235+08:00","text":"接下來，我第二個修法的重點是希望能夠減輕書記官的負擔，讓整個裁判書作成當中，可以減輕法官跟書記官等等的工作負擔。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:14.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:27.296364+08:00","text":"秘書長，我也看到你現在有提出司法院會成立一個全國電話中心（call center），預計今年12月就會開始測試，明年1月成立。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:27.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:32.243529+08:00","text":"本席在這裡有幾個問題想請教，第一個，你們有沒有已經編列預算了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:32.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:36.356667+08:00","text":"對於call center的部分，你們在116年度有編進預算了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:36.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:41.066667+08:00","text":"是，有編進，請委員、大院支持，已經編進預算。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:42.075652+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:29:51.445000+08:00","text":"本席也是支持call center，如果運作有成，的確可以減輕書記官的工作壓力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:29:51.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:30:06.673333+08:00","text":"但是在這裡還是有幾個問題想請教，未來第一線接電話的人員會是司法院編制內的約聘僱人員，還是用標案的方式外包給外部人員來做？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:30:06.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:30:32.995000+08:00","text":"因為人員部分會涉及到接電話的品質，而且他是不是真的能夠去回復民眾，尤其都是訴訟當事人的問題，譬如打電話進來問他們的上訴期限要怎麼計算或補正的正本需要幾份等等問題，所以司法院有相關的人才培育計畫嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:30:33.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:30:46.376923+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們不敢稱其為人才培訓，而是這個project到底要怎麼去完成，就如同委員講的，到底誰要進來？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:30:47.353333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:30:59.753333+08:00","text":"坦白跟委員講，我們不要忽視世界各國甚至各公司的電話中心都運作得非常成熟。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:00.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:08.707273+08:00","text":"再過來是重要的部分，如委員所說的，這些人要怎麼回復問題，這個是訓練的問題，司法院要負起訓練的責任。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:08.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:17.146000+08:00","text":"我們沒辦法去招聘一堆人，可是我們可以請人家幫我們招聘一堆人，但這一群人絕對是要經過司法院訓練的。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:17.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:38.281818+08:00","text":"而且跟委員報告，我們司法行政廳現在已經在通盤檢討，total納進了五千多個問題，這個都是要訓練的，並且有的書記官以為將來call  center成立了，是不是才把電話丟給他們？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:39.106667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:44.980000+08:00","text":"我們絕對要築起一道牆，所以一定要在這邊能夠達成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:45.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:31:46.655000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長的說明。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:31:47.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:22.370000+08:00","text":"現在很多人基本上都有被call center接聽進話的經驗，或是透過AI機器人接聽進話的經驗，譬如對於信用卡的消費有問題，感覺帳單好像多了一筆，以我自己個人或親友的經驗，有時候打電話進去，聽到是機器人接電話，或者是自動的電話，一直按不同的鍵，然後轉來轉去，最後乾脆算了，就把電話掛了，因為大家還是覺得能夠直接跟真正的服務人員通電話才可以迅速解決問題。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:22.656190+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:35.692000+08:00","text":"我希望未來call center的成立也能夠做到儘量不要讓當事人覺得一直不斷地轉接，然後轉接到最後乾脆就放棄了，這樣可能就不會有實益。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:35.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:47.936000+08:00","text":"所以這當然是需要你們12月的時候做個測試，甚至可能多一、兩個月的測試，儘量蒐集民眾的意見、當事人的意見，我覺得這可以提升call center的效率。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:48.454286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:55.060000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果不要機器人回答，要專人回答，那就是費用的問題。是啦！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:55.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:57.220000+08:00","text":"不過最後總還是可能……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:57.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:32:58.715000+08:00","text":"我們一定要訓練到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:32:59.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:01.348000+08:00","text":"有部分到最後的階段需要專人服務。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:01.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:11.130000+08:00","text":"對，一定是會有專人回答，因為機器人的回答是制式的，而法院的問題很多不是制式的。","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:11.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:12.500000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:12.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:37.014667+08:00","text":"接下來本席還要再問另外一個，剛剛林倩綺委員也有問到的時事新聞，提到2023年12月新竹湖口一間早餐店發生火災，29歲消防員進入火場搜救而不幸殉職，其家屬當然就承受天人永隔之痛。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:37.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:33:56.157143+08:00","text":"檢方調查之後，也認為是兩名越南籍移工涉嫌抽菸而當場引發火災，所以當時就以過失致死、公共危險等罪起訴，一審法院後來判這兩名越南籍移工無罪。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:33:56.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:34:05.780000+08:00","text":"但是本席要強調的是，一審無罪，不代表二審是無罪，所以檢察官對這個案子不服判決已提起上訴。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:34:06.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:34:32.002222+08:00","text":"這個案件明明還在二審審理當中，可是今年5月20號移民署竟然就將這兩名被告強制驅逐出境送回越南，等到6月高院開庭的時候才發現這兩個犯罪嫌疑人（被告）怎麼不見了，法院一查才知道人早就被移民署送出臺灣，最後只能發布通緝令。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:34:32.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:14.430000+08:00","text":"本席要請教秘書長，待會可能還要請教法務部黃次長，移民署的說法是，他們在依法強制驅逐出境之前曾經有通知司法機關，可是因為法院沒有羈押，也沒有限制出境，也沒有通知移民署暫緩執行，所以才把人送走，如果這個說法屬實的話，我第一個要問司法院的就是，為什麼法院在收到移民署通知的時候，明明知道這兩名被告的案件還沒有確定，也知道二審就要開庭了，可是卻沒有採取任何的措施，這中間到底是發生什麼問題？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:14.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:24.318462+08:00","text":"是承辦的法院沒有注意到，還是公文到了法院之後，卻沒有及時送到承審法官，所以才出現了這樣的漏洞？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:24.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:44.516667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實最大的原因就是因為法官在一審判無罪，判無罪以後，他對人身自由的思考就會不一樣，所以他那時候就沒有限制出境、出海，如果說有瑕疵，其實就是在第一審，就在這個地方。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:44.998182+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:48.544000+08:00","text":"因為沒有限制出境、出海，當然，移民署依規定就可以……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:48.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:55.282857+08:00","text":"可是問題是檢察官已經提起上訴，而且二審法院也都已經排了庭了。不是……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:55.702222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:35:58.937778+08:00","text":"這件事情為什麼都沒有讓移民署知道呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:35:59.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:05.460000+08:00","text":"沒有，跟委員報告，在法官排定之前，他就不在了，他就出去了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:06.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:15.853333+08:00","text":"其實最重要的就是一審沒有限制出境、出海，如果有限制……這整個程序裡面，真的要講瑕疵是在這個地方。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:15.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:22.071765+08:00","text":"所以可能是一審的法官當時沒有做限制出境、出海的處分。對。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:23.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:25.784000+08:00","text":"接下來要請黃次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:31.228889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:44.477143+08:00","text":"在這個案件當中，其實檢察官已經提起上訴了，檢察官提起上訴的時候為什麼沒有同時針對這兩名越籍的移工聲請限制出境、出海？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:44.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:51.433333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，案件在審理當中的強制處分權是屬於法官所擁有的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:51.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:53.176000+08:00","text":"可是你們也可以聲請吧！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:53.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:54.635000+08:00","text":"我們可以促請法官……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:54.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:36:57.146667+08:00","text":"對，你們有促請嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:36:57.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:06.880000+08:00","text":"這個個案我不清楚他們有沒有促請，但是這整個過程當中，事實上被告的保全應該是要法院來做處理。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:07.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:12.060000+08:00","text":"檢察官當然可以促請法官做這件事情，但是這個個案有沒有促請，我回去要查看看。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:12.917143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:14.485714+08:00","text":"這個案子的確是很荒謬！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:14.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:17.776667+08:00","text":"不好意思，還要再請高秘書長。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:20.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:37:50.270909+08:00","text":"事實上，我們知道這個環節一方面當然就在於機關的橫向聯繫不夠，二方面就是可能也涉及到移民法的規定，因為移民法第三十六條第三項的規定是，移民署如果知道外國人涉及刑事案件，已經進入司法程序，在強制驅逐出國10天前要通知司法機關，但是只要沒有依法羈押、拘提、管收或限制出國的話，移民署是「得」強制驅逐出境。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:37:50.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:06.273333+08:00","text":"所以在這裡就發生了一個問題，就是「得」這個字，當然移民署今天可以主張，因為法院確實也沒有限制出海、出境，所以它認為沒有什麼問題，就直接放人了。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:06.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:27.915385+08:00","text":"可是對於這種案件，之後二審可能還要繼續判、還要繼續審，但是現在被告都已經逃到國外了，不能講逃到國外，他是被放出去國外了，他有可能會再回來接受審判嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:31.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:33.028000+08:00","text":"應該不會了，對不對？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:33.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:34.028000+08:00","text":"機會接近於零。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:33.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:38:56.660000+08:00","text":"基本上依照我們的經驗法則來講，他幾乎不可能會再自己回到臺灣來接受審判，所以難怪這個殉職消防員的家屬悲憤地表示，這兩名外籍勞工又不是笨蛋，被告回到越南之後，根本不可能再回到臺灣受審了，發布通緝根本是於事無補。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:38:56.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:01.972000+08:00","text":"所以像這樣的情況，類似的案子之後是要怎麼結呢？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:04.473333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:04.806667+08:00","text":"請教秘書長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:05.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:08.926667+08:00","text":"二審已經判決了，因為被告不到庭也可以直接判決，只是將來沒辦法……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:09.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:12.451429+08:00","text":"就直接判決，但是判決的話，也不可能有任何的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:12.913333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:14.086667+08:00","text":"就是執行的問題……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:14.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:39:25.310000+08:00","text":"對，有執行的問題嘛，我們看到這個的確不只是在法律出現漏洞，在整個司法實務的橫向聯繫上也出現了很大的漏洞。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:39:25.723333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:07.100000+08:00","text":"像現在這個問題，本席建議未來一定要建立跨機關資訊的勾稽機制，剛剛林倩綺委員也有提到，尤其現在我們臺灣合法的外籍勞工大概是30萬人，非法的外籍勞工大概是10萬人左右，難免會有類似的犯罪案件發生，如果再有這樣的情況，你們到時候不能夠推責，也不能卸責，法院說「這不是我的責任」，然後檢察官也說「不是我的責任」，移民署也說「這不是我的責任」，到底這個責任該是誰去扛？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:07.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:08.868889+08:00","text":"該去追究哪一個機關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:09.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:31.220000+08:00","text":"我認為這個部分要趕快去進行跨部會的協調，我們希望能夠儘速地把這個漏洞填補起來，在法律還沒有完成修正之前，法務部跟司法院是不是可以答應，你們會儘速地和內政部移民署啟動相關的協調機制？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:31.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:32.410000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:32.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:48.288571+08:00","text":"好的，當然對於到底是一審法官出了問題，還是到二審，法院的內部程序裡面是不是也出現了漏洞、瑕疵，我希望司法院還是可以針對這個案子去進行檢討。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:49.208571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:40:59.290000+08:00","text":"看起來我覺得這個一審法官對於外籍移工沒有作出限制出境、出海的處分，在這件事情上面是不是也有一些疏失？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:40:59.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:05.260000+08:00","text":"相關的承辦法官未來需不需要進入到法官評鑑委員會去做討論？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:05.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:08.700000+08:00","text":"我希望司法院可以針對這個案子再做檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:08.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:15.557778+08:00","text":"因為這真的是法官在個案判斷的瑕疵，至於要不要進行評鑑，那當然是另外一回事。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:17.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:22.531111+08:00","text":"假設有出現瑕疵的話，可能可以進到法官評鑑委員會裡面去做討論嘛，是不是？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:22.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:24.300000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，跟委員報告……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:25.032308+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:35.366667+08:00","text":"總不能說這個法官在個案的判決上出現問題，司法院都不理不睬，或是認為這個沒有什麼關係，他不過只是犯了一個小小的錯誤。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:35.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:42.653846+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，重點是，除非我們要敢去動審判核心，司法行政可不可以動到審判核心？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:42.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:41:43.473333+08:00","text":"這是我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:41:45.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:01.894286+08:00","text":"自從您擔任秘書長來立法院接受備詢，我常常認為您都會用審判核心來當成卸責的藉口，我認為法官的審判核心我們一定要予以尊重，但是這審判核心也不是無限上綱！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:02.286667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:19.630909+08:00","text":"否則的話，為什麼還是會看到有很多的裁判、判決被高院甚至被憲法法庭認為是有瑕疵的，所以發回審判、甚至認為它是個違憲的判決等等？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:20.409091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:22.420000+08:00","text":"就這個案子來說，我希望大家可以來檢討。","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:22.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:31.085000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，委員所提的例子如果是重大瑕疵，是一定送自律的，但這並不是那麼簡單的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:31.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:43.303636+08:00","text":"其實如同委員所說的，制度上有個地方是可以彌補的，我們也不能說全部都是審判核心，我們也要從制度上去彌補。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:43.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:42:57.706154+08:00","text":"好，簡單來說，我們如果從民法善良管理人的角度來看的話，就是法官今天有沒有盡到善良管理人的注意義務，包含檢察官也是一樣，都已經提非常上訴了，總是要去了解現在被告的情況是怎麼樣。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:42:58.290769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:43:17.513333+08:00","text":"因為法官跟檢察官是具有高度專業知識、法律知識的司法人員，跟一般的老百姓不一樣，所以我們當然有理由要求司法人員要更能夠善盡他的注意義務，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:43:18.130769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:43:36.667273+08:00","text":"接下來還有一個問題，跟大法官113年憲判字第8號判決有關，這裡可能要請黃次長，秘書長可以先回座。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:43:38.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:43:53.366667+08:00","text":"我們知道其實司法院憲法法庭在113年作成了憲判字第8號判決之後，針對該案申請人被判死刑確定，創設了可以請求檢察總長提起非常上訴的特別救濟制度。","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:43:55.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:12.500000+08:00","text":"這個部分，事實上我看到了最高檢察署檢察總長陸續為5位死囚提出了非常上訴，現在還有多少位還沒有提起非常上訴？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:12.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:15.013333+08:00","text":"還是全部都已經提起非常上訴了？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:15.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:28.166667+08:00","text":"沒有，目前除了1位已經執行完畢，還有1位已經死亡之外，總長大概為4、5位提起非常上訴，其他的檢察總長都還在審核當中。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:28.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:31.540000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請次長給我一份書面的報告？數字？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:31.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:36.430000+08:00","text":"就是現在這31名死囚的處理情況到底是怎麼樣。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:36.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:36.880000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:37.441538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:44:57.680000+08:00","text":"本席現在要講的是，剛剛次長也提到，有一名死囚已經過世了，這名死囚是二十多年前曾經犯下擄人勒贖撕票分屍案，早就被判處死刑定讞的受刑人歐陽榕，因為他長期沒有執行死刑，最後病死獄中。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:44:57.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:45:08.761818+08:00","text":"可是荒謬的是檢察總長還必須依法為這位已經死亡的死刑犯提起非常上訴，這是不是真的還滿荒謬的？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:45:08.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:45:10.180000+08:00","text":"他都已經過世了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:45:10.533846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:45:28.580000+08:00","text":"理由不是因為他有沒有犯罪，而是因為113年憲判字第8號所要求的一致決，所以變成我們的檢察總長還要為一位已經病死於獄中的死囚，去翻他過去的案件，看看當時的判決書裡面是不是法官一致決。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:45:29.065714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:45:43.992500+08:00","text":"本席認為這樣的情況就凸顯出113年憲判字第8號的荒謬，它非常在意的是程序上面的正義，可是卻沒有注意到所謂的實體正義。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:45:44.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:46:10.380000+08:00","text":"我們很期待國家這些高階的法律菁英應該把他的心力投入在去發現真實、發現證據，而不是為了這種程序上面的瑕疵翻舊帳，檢視到底當時每一審的法官是不是都有一致決，其實這是滿荒謬的事情。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:46:14.285882+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:46:25.413333+08:00","text":"不知道113年憲判字第8號的判決對於現在高檢署實際上的實務影響，有沒有增加你們的負擔？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:46:25.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:46:35.462353+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為113年憲判字第8號出來了，它有憲法位階的效力，所以就總長來講，他也是要依照憲判意旨去做相關的審核。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:46:35.722857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:46:43.369474+08:00","text":"當然這個案子他提非常上訴，最高法院得依法判決，這是總長跟法官他們都要各盡法律上的職責。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:46:46.246667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:00.413333+08:00","text":"現在假設一個狀況，如果我們剛剛講病死獄中的死刑犯，你們去翻他過去的判決書，果然發現曾經有一審法院的判決書裡面，有一位法官沒有同意，這個案子是要怎麼樣？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:00.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:02.080000+08:00","text":"要重審嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:02.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:08.380000+08:00","text":"按照113年憲判字第8號，它沒有要求歷審、每一次，它只要最後一次確定審有一致決。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:08.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:13.080000+08:00","text":"只要是最後一次確定審，它不是說要歷審嗎？不是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:13.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:15.313333+08:00","text":"所以你們現在只去檢視最後一致……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:16.041538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:17.887692+08:00","text":"對，確定三審之後有一致決。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:18.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:22.380000+08:00","text":"這好像跟我對於憲判字第8號的理解不太一樣喔！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:23.722857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:33.380000+08:00","text":"總之，對於113年憲判字第8號判決所衍生的大量非常上訴、再審以及救濟的案件，法務部現在已經進行全面盤點了嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:33.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:35.413333+08:00","text":"你們現在盤點進度是如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:35.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:45.380000+08:00","text":"跟憲判字第8號有關係的，都是總長在進行盤點，因為這是總長的職責，總長要不要提非常上訴是總長的職責，所以總長他陸續在提。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:45.815294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:47:49.398182+08:00","text":"剛才委員有提到有4、5件已經提了，就是他陸續提出來的結果。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:47:50.722857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:07.403529+08:00","text":"希望可以提供本席一份書面報告，我想了解到底這個判決的影響，到現在最高檢、總長這裡，因為是代理總長……現在他們這裡做的情況怎麼樣。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:07.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:16.349231+08:00","text":"還有講到代理檢察總長，本席要順便請教，現在總統有在進行檢察總長候選人的提名作業嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:16.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:20.080000+08:00","text":"這部分是總長的職權，我不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:20.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:22.437143+08:00","text":"所以法務部這邊也沒有任何訊息？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:22.437143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:23.437143+08:00","text":"對，沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:23.437143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:24.437143+08:00","text":"你們也還沒有推薦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:22.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:26.180000+08:00","text":"至少我本人沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:26.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:38.294286+08:00","text":"本席當然在這邊還是呼籲，希望賴清德總統能夠儘速提出檢察總長人選的名單，不要耽誤整個檢察總長職權的行使。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:38.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:40.180000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:40.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:42.108571+08:00","text":"謝謝翁召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:42.408571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:44.980000+08:00","text":"接下來請張雅琳委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}