{"error":false,"id":["171059"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":171059,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/171059","日期":"2026-08-19","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-29","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":29,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-19T10:48:47+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-19T11:05:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0db75461a96d9b80a4c30800470359012b450a12875ec880d62701491950973f54ed8f2ce0dbea445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:48:47 - 11:05:37","會議時間":"2026-08-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴惠員等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員洪孟楷等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員王世堅等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員翁曉玲等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百五十五條之四十六條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第三百十條條文修正草案」案。\n【第六案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":7.82721875,"end":10.72971875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":12.434093750000002,"end":13.598468750000002,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.500968750000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":19.47096875,"end":20.33159375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":20.70284375,"end":54.18284375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":54.486593750000004,"end":67.17659375000001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":68.57721875,"end":69.37034375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":69.65721875,"end":146.86034375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":147.56909375,"end":156.02346875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":156.49596875,"end":158.87534375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":159.51659375,"end":163.80284375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":163.92096875000001,"end":165.74346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":165.97971875000002,"end":173.21909375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":173.53971875000002,"end":187.46159375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":187.71471875,"end":196.18596875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":197.48534375,"end":199.56096875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":199.88159375,"end":209.48346875000001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":205.82159375,"end":206.34471875000003,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":209.82096875000002,"end":215.74409375000002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":216.16596875000002,"end":227.72534375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":228.28221875000003,"end":237.02346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":237.02346875,"end":292.03596875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":293.14971875000003,"end":296.52471875000003,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":297.11534375,"end":297.77346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":298.58346875,"end":325.49909375000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":325.97159375,"end":329.39721875000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":330.34221875000003,"end":336.26534375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":336.48471875,"end":340.02846875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":340.02846875,"end":340.34909375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":340.34909375,"end":342.22221875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":340.36596875000004,"end":362.69159375000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":363.07971875000004,"end":363.11346875000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":363.11346875000004,"end":363.60284375000003,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":363.60284375000003,"end":363.63659375000003,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":363.63659375000003,"end":367.97346875000005,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":366.45471875000004,"end":366.57284375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":369.39096875,"end":374.60534375000003,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":374.77409375,"end":375.11159375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":376.32659375000003,"end":386.65409375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":388.24034375,"end":390.07971875000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":390.46784375000004,"end":391.98659375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":392.30721875,"end":394.28159375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":394.99034375,"end":398.63534375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":398.97284375000004,"end":399.42846875000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":400.22159375,"end":402.80346875000004,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":403.44471875000005,"end":404.08596875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":404.08596875,"end":404.13659375000003,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":404.54159375,"end":405.03096875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":405.03096875,"end":405.82409375000003,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":405.82409375000003,"end":405.89159375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":407.19096875,"end":422.53034375000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":422.90159375,"end":425.17971875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":425.46659375,"end":433.60034375000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":434.05596875000003,"end":464.76846875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":465.52784375000005,"end":485.45721875000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":485.62596875,"end":485.96346875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":485.96346875,"end":488.88284375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":489.30471875,"end":497.48909375000005,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":497.86034375,"end":499.48034375000003,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":499.64909375,"end":503.68221875000006,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":504.20534375000005,"end":529.2647187499999,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":504.27284375000005,"end":504.44159375000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":530.29409375,"end":532.23471875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":532.8928437500001,"end":538.7990937500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":539.45721875,"end":540.1828437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":541.11096875,"end":541.7353437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":541.7353437500001,"end":541.80284375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":541.8872187500001,"end":541.9209687499999,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":541.9209687499999,"end":543.0347187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":543.0347187500001,"end":544.1315937500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":544.5872187500001,"end":544.62096875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":544.62096875,"end":572.51534375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":573.15659375,"end":590.8415937500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":591.6853437500001,"end":603.6497187500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":604.00409375,"end":635.45909375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":636.04971875,"end":662.9653437500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":660.80534375,"end":661.1259687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":662.9653437500001,"end":664.6359687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":664.8215937500001,"end":677.69721875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":672.3984687500001,"end":672.6684687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":677.93346875,"end":681.5447187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":681.78096875,"end":685.7297187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":682.1015937500001,"end":682.7765937500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":686.10096875,"end":693.57659375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":694.23471875,"end":698.50409375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":699.07784375,"end":724.8628437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":718.2309687500001,"end":719.5303437500002,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":725.3015937499999,"end":725.8415937500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":726.5672187499999,"end":726.60096875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":726.60096875,"end":745.9734687499999,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":727.3603437500001,"end":729.1997187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":735.5615937500002,"end":735.9834687500002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":745.48409375,"end":745.9397187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":745.9734687499999,"end":746.02409375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":746.02409375,"end":754.61346875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":754.8328437499999,"end":755.0522187500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":755.0522187500001,"end":755.1028437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":755.54159375,"end":756.3684687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":756.3684687500001,"end":756.41909375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":756.6553437500002,"end":756.70596875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":756.70596875,"end":756.9084687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":756.9084687500001,"end":756.97596875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":756.97596875,"end":759.8784687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":760.51971875,"end":761.44784375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":761.90346875,"end":765.0422187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":765.39659375,"end":772.88909375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":772.3997187500001,"end":783.9253437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":782.6428437500001,"end":783.41909375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":783.9253437500001,"end":821.4384687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":821.0503437500001,"end":826.7878437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":826.88909375,"end":828.96471875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":829.4540937500001,"end":840.4734687500002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":841.23284375,"end":842.02596875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":842.02596875,"end":869.76846875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":842.2622187500001,"end":843.5109687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":870.32534375,"end":902.2865937500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":902.4722187500001,"end":944.55846875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":945.58784375,"end":958.09221875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":958.2778437500001,"end":961.5009687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":962.0747187500001,"end":963.15471875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":963.57659375,"end":965.0278437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":965.5847187500001,"end":966.9853437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":967.47471875,"end":970.6640937500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":970.9172187500001,"end":973.3472187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":971.9465937500001,"end":973.38096875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":973.38096875,"end":973.39784375,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":973.39784375,"end":974.96721875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":974.96721875,"end":975.0009687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":975.0009687500001,"end":975.0178437500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":975.0178437500001,"end":975.10221875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":975.10221875,"end":975.1359687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":975.1359687500001,"end":976.5872187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":977.49846875,"end":977.51534375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":977.51534375,"end":986.4253437500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":977.63346875,"end":978.61221875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":986.89784375,"end":992.11221875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":992.50034375,"end":993.8672187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":994.2553437500001,"end":996.4322187500002,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":994.33971875,"end":1001.35971875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":1001.35971875,"end":1002.8447187500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1001.6297187500002,"end":1004.1609687500002,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1004.3972187500001,"end":1004.49846875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":1004.49846875,"end":1004.63346875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1004.63346875,"end":1004.8359687500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":1004.8359687500001,"end":1004.9709687500001,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1004.9709687500001,"end":1005.57846875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":1006.03409375,"end":1006.89471875,"speaker_score":0.986},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1006.89471875,"end":1006.9115937500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":1008.2109687500001,"end":1008.2278437500001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"高秘書長金枝","start":1008.2278437500001,"end":1008.86909375,"speaker_score":0.986}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":11,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們邀請司法院秘書長"},{"start":11,"end":14,"text":"請告秘書長 謝謝"},{"start":14,"end":17,"text":"吳言長"},{"start":17,"end":21,"text":"好 秘書長 早安"},{"start":21,"end":23,"text":"那今天是想要跟秘書長請教"},{"start":23,"end":25,"text":"有關於這個被害人訴訟參與制度"},{"start":25,"end":27,"text":"有幾件事情想要請秘書長來釐清"},{"start":27,"end":30,"text":"就是說這一次的幾個刑事訴訟法的修正草案"},{"start":30,"end":32,"text":"都有進一步的要提到"},{"start":32,"end":35,"text":"要擴張訴訟參與人的程序權利"},{"start":35,"end":39,"text":"因為現在我們是可以讓訴訟參與人表示意見"},{"start":39,"end":43,"text":"但是現在的版本是希望可以讓他可以申請調查證據"},{"start":43,"end":47,"text":"也可以詢問被告或者是證人"},{"start":47,"end":52,"text":"那也可以去要求檢察官說明他們的理由"},{"start":52,"end":54,"text":"那我想就是說"},{"start":54,"end":58,"text":"當今天我們要進一步的把被害人的權利擴張到"},{"start":58,"end":61,"text":"主動參與證據調查的這個時候"},{"start":61,"end":64,"text":"可能就會碰到我們訴訟刑事訴訟法裡面的"},{"start":64,"end":68,"text":"不同的角色的一個權限的配置"},{"start":68,"end":71,"text":"那現行制度之下呢"},{"start":71,"end":74,"text":"我們的訴訟參與人其實可以取得卷證資訊"},{"start":74,"end":77,"text":"也可以到庭參與準備程序跟審判"},{"start":77,"end":80,"text":"準備程序跟審判程序"},{"start":80,"end":82,"text":"但是呢 在現在的公訴程序裡面呢"},{"start":82,"end":86,"text":"檢察官的工作就是犯罪的追訴以及舉證的責任"},{"start":86,"end":89,"text":"所以這兩個角色其實是有差別的"},{"start":89,"end":93,"text":"特別是檢察官是具有國家刑事犯罪追訴權的"},{"start":93,"end":96,"text":"還有這個客觀的義務"},{"start":96,"end":99,"text":"那被害人呢 現在就如果讓他們參與的話"},{"start":99,"end":101,"text":"可能會有自己的個別利益"},{"start":101,"end":104,"text":"也可能會有對於自己案件事實被告責任"},{"start":104,"end":106,"text":"以及量刑的一個看法"},{"start":106,"end":110,"text":"所以今天如果訴訟參與人可以申請調查證據"},{"start":110,"end":113,"text":"兩邊對某一項的證據是不是應該有調查的必要"},{"start":113,"end":117,"text":"某一個事實是否重要可能都會有不同的判斷"},{"start":117,"end":119,"text":"所以我想我今天看到司法院的一個書面報告"},{"start":119,"end":121,"text":"其實立場寫得非常清楚啦"},{"start":121,"end":124,"text":"就是說這個審檢辯的三面關係"},{"start":124,"end":128,"text":"是現行的一個制度也是非常重要的一個訴訟結構"},{"start":128,"end":131,"text":"所以我想要請教訴訟這個秘書長說明"},{"start":131,"end":134,"text":"部分的提案要進一步的賦予訴訟參與人"},{"start":134,"end":137,"text":"證據調查 申請權 證人發問權"},{"start":137,"end":139,"text":"甚至是詢問被告的權利"},{"start":139,"end":143,"text":"那司法院認為被害人訴訟參與權的界限"},{"start":143,"end":145,"text":"到底應該劃在哪裡"},{"start":145,"end":151,"text":"如果說今天檢察官認為有些證據沒有必要調查的條件"},{"start":151,"end":153,"text":"可是被害人又認為有的時候"},{"start":153,"end":155,"text":"那這時候又應該要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":155,"end":159,"text":"所以這個是不是可以請這個秘書長說明一下"},{"start":159,"end":163,"text":"我們在那個書面報告也曾陳述得很清楚"},{"start":163,"end":166,"text":"沒有錯 因為被害人他是證人"},{"start":166,"end":168,"text":"所以我們在書面報告裡面也提到"},{"start":168,"end":173,"text":"被害人最重要是要由檢察官來負責照護義務"},{"start":173,"end":178,"text":"那被害人如果再讓他可以申請調查證據"},{"start":178,"end":183,"text":"會不會跟檢察官衝突 會不會矛盾 會不會不一致"},{"start":183,"end":187,"text":"這個在整個訴訟程序的進行一定會混亂"},{"start":187,"end":195,"text":"那同樣的結問也是一樣會不會跟檢察官這個彼此之間的矛盾"},{"start":195,"end":199,"text":"還有一個 一個安置院裡面會有很多證人"},{"start":199,"end":202,"text":"因為被害人也是證人之一"},{"start":202,"end":205,"text":"他對其他證人他可以解問嗎"},{"start":205,"end":211,"text":"這個是所以我們是希望建議一定要審慎的去評估"},{"start":211,"end":218,"text":"那因為那委員提案裡面所這個被害影響陳述"},{"start":218,"end":220,"text":"其實這個是很重要 這可以列入"},{"start":221,"end":226,"text":"那其實我們現在訴訟法規定的被害人參與"},{"start":226,"end":230,"text":"他已經可以獲知這個卷證資訊"},{"start":230,"end":233,"text":"他也可以倒停陳述"},{"start":233,"end":240,"text":"那所以在調查證據跟結問這一塊一定要審慎評估"},{"start":240,"end":242,"text":"好 了解 那其實我下一個問題就是想要請教"},{"start":242,"end":247,"text":"因為就是您剛剛有提到訴訟參與人同時也是被害人以及證人嘛 對不對"},{"start":247,"end":251,"text":"那這個被害人他並不是程序的參與人"},{"start":251,"end":255,"text":"在很多的案件裡面他也是犯罪事實非常重要的一個證據來源"},{"start":255,"end":259,"text":"特別是像是性侵害家庭暴力這些案件裡面"},{"start":259,"end":265,"text":"他被害人的證書本身就有可能是法院來認定是不是犯罪事實的一個部分"},{"start":265,"end":269,"text":"那如果同一個人一方面是案件的重要證人"},{"start":269,"end":273,"text":"那他又可以用訴訟參與人的身分來閱卷"},{"start":273,"end":277,"text":"聽取其他證人的陳述知道被告的答辯"},{"start":277,"end":280,"text":"那法院後續在評價他的證言的時候"},{"start":280,"end":287,"text":"就必須要去確認到底是他的陳述來自於自身對於原本事件的記憶"},{"start":287,"end":293,"text":"還是他看了很多訴訟資訊之後產生的記憶 對不對"},{"start":293,"end":297,"text":"委員報告 委員問到一個這個醫學上的重點"},{"start":297,"end":301,"text":"是記憶還是自己創造的記憶"},{"start":301,"end":305,"text":"其實所以對於他當然是證人"},{"start":305,"end":307,"text":"那他也是被害人"},{"start":307,"end":311,"text":"那法官他在訴訟指揮上就要去注意"},{"start":311,"end":317,"text":"同樣的對於被害人他的陳述跟他在證人的陳述"},{"start":317,"end":321,"text":"法官你在認定上這個就是法官非常重要的職責"},{"start":321,"end":325,"text":"一定要讓他陳述可是判斷的是法官"},{"start":325,"end":328,"text":"這是整個捐贈資料去判斷"},{"start":328,"end":334,"text":"所以那個被告的被害人他的陳述這個絕對要存在"},{"start":334,"end":339,"text":"可是同樣的要不要讓他深具證據跟絕問"},{"start":339,"end":341,"text":"這個可能真的要仔細的思考"},{"start":341,"end":344,"text":"這個就是剛剛我們講的一個重點就是說這法官就無法去判斷"},{"start":344,"end":350,"text":"這到底是基於自己的經驗還是因為看了太多的訴訟的一些證據之後產生的"},{"start":350,"end":353,"text":"這就會造成我們在實務上面的一些困難"},{"start":354,"end":359,"text":"那您認為因為現在有版本是提出這樣子的一個修正的版本"},{"start":359,"end":363,"text":"那您認為在實務上面有沒有辦法避免呢"},{"start":363,"end":366,"text":"是有辦法經過設計程序上面來避免的嗎"},{"start":366,"end":367,"text":"還是你覺得是無法的"},{"start":367,"end":369,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":369,"end":375,"text":"程序上因為他他訴訟前調查證據交互結論就這樣一直走一直走"},{"start":375,"end":380,"text":"那當被害人他申請調查證據跟檢察官混亂的時候"},{"start":380,"end":386,"text":"甚至打亂了檢察官他這個證明犯罪事實的證據策略的時候"},{"start":388,"end":392,"text":"會造成程序的混亂法官也會跟著混亂"},{"start":392,"end":394,"text":"那當然法官還是要判斷"},{"start":394,"end":398,"text":"如果立法是這樣通過的話法官還是要判斷"},{"start":398,"end":402,"text":"可是他所造成的程序冗長"},{"start":402,"end":406,"text":"我相信是可以預測的"},{"start":407,"end":408,"text":"程序冗長"},{"start":408,"end":414,"text":"以及我們可能在法官做判斷的時候會造成非常大的困難嘛對不對"},{"start":414,"end":418,"text":"好那我也想請教一下就是說被告的防禦權這次也有提到"},{"start":418,"end":422,"text":"就是原則上對於檢察官起訴的犯罪事實"},{"start":422,"end":430,"text":"是提我們現在是被告的原則上是針對檢察官起訴的犯罪事實及提出的證據來進行防禦"},{"start":430,"end":435,"text":"但是如果未來訴訟參與人可以另外提出證據申請調查申請"},{"start":435,"end":442,"text":"那就可能會出現檢察官和訴訟參與人對於不同的待證事實會有不同的證據主張"},{"start":442,"end":446,"text":"那特別是如果一個案件有超過一個以上的被害人的時候"},{"start":446,"end":450,"text":"那每一個被害的人他們要如何的來申請這些證據"},{"start":450,"end":454,"text":"那可能就會造成一個非常混亂的問題"},{"start":454,"end":458,"text":"那特別是說如果檢察官認為某一件事情跟犯罪成立沒有關係"},{"start":458,"end":462,"text":"所以沒有調查但是訴訟參與人認為非常重要"},{"start":462,"end":465,"text":"那就因此另外申請調查"},{"start":465,"end":468,"text":"或者是說檢察官對於證人的結問已經結束"},{"start":468,"end":471,"text":"可是訴訟參與人又從另外一個角度提出一系列的問題"},{"start":471,"end":475,"text":"那面對訴訟的公防範圍可能就會非常非常的不一樣"},{"start":475,"end":477,"text":"那所以我不曉得說對於這件事情的話"},{"start":477,"end":482,"text":"您認為是有辦法透過程序來保障一個平公防的平衡嗎"},{"start":482,"end":484,"text":"還是您認為是基本上是沒有辦法的"},{"start":484,"end":486,"text":"那幾乎是不可能"},{"start":486,"end":489,"text":"我如果賦予他權利他當然可以行事"},{"start":489,"end":492,"text":"那對檢察官還有另外對被告"},{"start":492,"end":496,"text":"因為我們刑事訴訟三面關係"},{"start":496,"end":499,"text":"法官、檢方、檢辯"},{"start":499,"end":503,"text":"那檢察官他要負責照護被害人"},{"start":503,"end":510,"text":"其實被害人所有要申請調查的證據應該是向檢察官提出"},{"start":510,"end":513,"text":"他要結問他也可以向檢察官申請"},{"start":513,"end":515,"text":"檢察官要盡到照護義務"},{"start":515,"end":517,"text":"然後在整個程序上"},{"start":517,"end":522,"text":"因為檢察官是要負責起訴"},{"start":522,"end":527,"text":"然後將來在公訴程序上要讓被告定罪"},{"start":527,"end":532,"text":"所以他有一定的證據調查結問的策略"},{"start":532,"end":539,"text":"那當被害人他有申請調查權還有結問權的話"},{"start":539,"end":544,"text":"彼此之間很難不發生混亂的狀況"},{"start":544,"end":547,"text":"對所以聽起來還是回到就是說"},{"start":547,"end":550,"text":"其實根本的原因就是我們剛剛就討論到的"},{"start":550,"end":554,"text":"就是這整個程序上面跟這三個的架構關係會完全錯亂"},{"start":554,"end":559,"text":"那可能會造成實務上面的審判非常的困難去判斷"},{"start":559,"end":561,"text":"而且程序上面非常籠場對不對"},{"start":561,"end":564,"text":"所以真正的被害人如果要得到他的爭議的時間"},{"start":564,"end":566,"text":"可能也會等待更漫長"},{"start":566,"end":569,"text":"好那這個部分我想在這部分我就先問到這裡"},{"start":569,"end":572,"text":"那我還有一個有關於法服的問題想要請教"},{"start":572,"end":575,"text":"就是因為我上個禮拜有看到有委員"},{"start":575,"end":581,"text":"國民黨的委員要求法服不得替特定幾類重大犯罪的加害人辯護"},{"start":581,"end":586,"text":"那似乎好像也有跟司法院取得一些共識"},{"start":586,"end":591,"text":"所以我今天想要釐清一下就是說現行的這個刑事訴訟法"},{"start":591,"end":596,"text":"第31條就有規定罪行本行三年以上的有期徒刑的案件"},{"start":596,"end":599,"text":"本來就屬於強制辯護的案件"},{"start":599,"end":601,"text":"如果他沒有辦法自己請律師的話"},{"start":601,"end":605,"text":"法院依法就必須指定公社的辯護人"},{"start":605,"end":607,"text":"或是其他律師來幫他辯護"},{"start":607,"end":612,"text":"那這個強制的辯護是從民國24年就已經有的既有制度"},{"start":612,"end":616,"text":"也就是說這個制度已經差不多要100年了"},{"start":616,"end":617,"text":"差不多100年了"},{"start":617,"end":619,"text":"像是殺人獨家致死"},{"start":619,"end":622,"text":"強制性交跟重大虐童致死自重傷的案件"},{"start":622,"end":625,"text":"本來就有相當的一部分是屬於強制辯護的部分"},{"start":625,"end":628,"text":"所以今天即使是法服不幫他辯論好了"},{"start":628,"end":630,"text":"我們還是要透過公社辯護人"},{"start":630,"end":634,"text":"或是幫他找到辯護人才能夠讓審判繼續進行嘛"},{"start":634,"end":635,"text":"對不對"},{"start":635,"end":638,"text":"所以呢我想問就是說你們自己自己"},{"start":638,"end":642,"text":"過去有公開表示說其實現在公社辯護制度"},{"start":642,"end":646,"text":"一直都有人力缺口的問題我們找不到人"},{"start":646,"end":650,"text":"所以如果今天依法我們要有幫他有公社辯護人"},{"start":650,"end":652,"text":"我們要強制辯護"},{"start":652,"end":655,"text":"可是我們又不讓法服來去派的時候"},{"start":656,"end":658,"text":"那到底我們要怎麼進行這些案件"},{"start":658,"end":660,"text":"這些案件還能夠繼續進行嗎"},{"start":660,"end":664,"text":"跟委員報告強制辯護並不等同於法服"},{"start":664,"end":668,"text":"強制辯護一定要存在這是這個正當法律程序"},{"start":668,"end":672,"text":"那只是強制辯護這件事是誰要來擔當"},{"start":672,"end":675,"text":"早期就是律師或者公社辯護人"},{"start":675,"end":677,"text":"那後來有法服成立"},{"start":677,"end":681,"text":"就很多案件就慢慢派給法服"},{"start":681,"end":682,"text":"那當然"},{"start":682,"end":684,"text":"我的問題就是問題是公社辯護人現在沒有人"},{"start":684,"end":687,"text":"那當然這個是一個國家政策"},{"start":687,"end":690,"text":"法服到底他負擔的責任"},{"start":690,"end":693,"text":"負擔的工作範圍要多大"},{"start":693,"end":696,"text":"這是一個國家政策"},{"start":696,"end":698,"text":"當然沒有法服"},{"start":698,"end":700,"text":"有異變啊股市都沒有法服"},{"start":700,"end":702,"text":"也是有異物辯護人啊"},{"start":702,"end":706,"text":"異物辯護人他也是要承擔強制辯護案件"},{"start":706,"end":712,"text":"那如果這一次這個委員有要求"},{"start":712,"end":716,"text":"法服對某些案件不能夠這個"},{"start":716,"end":719,"text":"不能御前制辯護"},{"start":719,"end":723,"text":"不能請法服為辯護律師的話"},{"start":723,"end":726,"text":"那一定會走向異變"},{"start":726,"end":728,"text":"異物辯護辯護辯護"},{"start":728,"end":729,"text":"我知道對 秘書長好"},{"start":729,"end":730,"text":"因為我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":730,"end":733,"text":"今天如果我們真的要要求"},{"start":733,"end":736,"text":"法服不去做強制辯護"},{"start":736,"end":739,"text":"那到底因為自己公社辯護制度長期確認"},{"start":739,"end":741,"text":"這也是你們自己之前說的嘛"},{"start":741,"end":742,"text":"所以如果說不走法服"},{"start":742,"end":744,"text":"就一定是走公社辯護人"},{"start":744,"end":745,"text":"或是自己再去找律師嘛"},{"start":745,"end":746,"text":"對不對"},{"start":746,"end":747,"text":"還有個異物辯護"},{"start":747,"end":748,"text":"好 異物辯護"},{"start":748,"end":749,"text":"那我問你就是說"},{"start":749,"end":750,"text":"你們現在異物辯護"},{"start":750,"end":751,"text":"或者是公社辯護人"},{"start":751,"end":752,"text":"真的有辦法去承接"},{"start":752,"end":754,"text":"現在這些強制辯護的能量嗎"},{"start":754,"end":758,"text":"那如果法服法這樣修正通過"},{"start":758,"end":765,"text":"那當然就是要去完成這個監具的任務"},{"start":765,"end":766,"text":"所以你的意思是說"},{"start":766,"end":767,"text":"你們是找得到人就對了"},{"start":767,"end":770,"text":"現場的公法院 地方法院"},{"start":770,"end":772,"text":"各地方法院都找得到人的意思就對了"},{"start":772,"end":775,"text":"那其實我們不是我們找人"},{"start":775,"end":776,"text":"這是要用錢"},{"start":776,"end":777,"text":"因為律師公會"},{"start":777,"end":779,"text":"其實那個異物辯護"},{"start":779,"end":782,"text":"是跟律師公會彼此之間建立的"},{"start":782,"end":784,"text":"我想今天秘書長抱歉"},{"start":784,"end":786,"text":"因為我時間真的很有限"},{"start":786,"end":789,"text":"我其實今天只想要確認一個實務的問題"},{"start":789,"end":792,"text":"就是說今天法服如果真的要修法"},{"start":792,"end":794,"text":"讓他不能做強制辯護的話"},{"start":794,"end":795,"text":"我們到底有沒有人去"},{"start":795,"end":797,"text":"因為這是依法規定"},{"start":797,"end":799,"text":"就是你今天在這31條裡面的規定"},{"start":799,"end":801,"text":"就是一定某些特別的案情"},{"start":801,"end":803,"text":"一定要有公社辯護人"},{"start":803,"end":805,"text":"或是就是有人幫他辯護對不對"},{"start":805,"end":807,"text":"這是法的規定就是要這樣做"},{"start":807,"end":809,"text":"所以如果說今天我們要這樣修"},{"start":809,"end":812,"text":"我們就要來考慮現場到找不找得到人"},{"start":812,"end":814,"text":"如果找不到人他會造成什麼樣的問題"},{"start":814,"end":815,"text":"就是我們的審判沒有辦法繼續進行"},{"start":815,"end":816,"text":"審判不能繼續進行的時候"},{"start":816,"end":818,"text":"對被害人跟家屬的正義"},{"start":818,"end":819,"text":"又是如何被保障呢"},{"start":819,"end":821,"text":"我簡單的問題就是在這裡"},{"start":821,"end":823,"text":"對 就如同委員講的"},{"start":823,"end":825,"text":"當法服不能接這些案件的時候"},{"start":825,"end":827,"text":"就是走向義務辯護"},{"start":827,"end":829,"text":"其實各法院都有義務辯護人"},{"start":829,"end":831,"text":"因為我們公社辯護人不足"},{"start":831,"end":835,"text":"那法服也不是能夠因應所有案件"},{"start":835,"end":837,"text":"也不是符合所有案件"},{"start":837,"end":838,"text":"這是用錢的問題"},{"start":838,"end":843,"text":"你錢要花在法服還是要花在義務辯護"},{"start":843,"end":845,"text":"抱歉因為我想確定就是一件事情"},{"start":845,"end":847,"text":"錢到底能不能找得到人"},{"start":847,"end":848,"text":"這是一個很大的問號"},{"start":848,"end":850,"text":"現在我們光錢很多地方都找不到人"},{"start":850,"end":851,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":851,"end":853,"text":"我覺得就是如果我們今天往這個方向修法的話"},{"start":853,"end":855,"text":"我們就是要回到實務上面"},{"start":855,"end":857,"text":"到底會不會產生什麼樣子的後果"},{"start":857,"end":859,"text":"就像我們前面在討論這個刑事訴訟法"},{"start":859,"end":861,"text":"要去做修正的一樣嘛"},{"start":861,"end":863,"text":"我們實務上到底會造成什麼後果"},{"start":863,"end":864,"text":"大家才能夠審慎的思考"},{"start":864,"end":865,"text":"我們要不要這樣修嘛"},{"start":865,"end":867,"text":"好 那再來下一個東西就是說"},{"start":867,"end":869,"text":"在法服的這個部分啊"},{"start":869,"end":871,"text":"其實呢法服的意義"},{"start":871,"end":873,"text":"本來就不是先判定一個人到底值不值得幫"},{"start":873,"end":876,"text":"而是確保法院在判一個人有罪之前"},{"start":876,"end":878,"text":"可以把他有利的事實"},{"start":878,"end":881,"text":"跟法律的問題完整的提出來嘛"},{"start":881,"end":884,"text":"這是法服我們當時的一個設計嘛"},{"start":884,"end":886,"text":"那像是我現在舉了兩個案例"},{"start":886,"end":888,"text":"就是過去的王光祿案"},{"start":888,"end":890,"text":"原本都已經被判刑確定了"},{"start":890,"end":892,"text":"可是在法服律師團的協助之下"},{"start":892,"end":894,"text":"經過後續的救濟程序"},{"start":894,"end":896,"text":"他最後被判無罪嘛"},{"start":896,"end":898,"text":"那法服自己今年也有一個實際的案例嘛"},{"start":898,"end":901,"text":"我們一開始會認為他是詐欺共犯"},{"start":901,"end":902,"text":"一個"},{"start":902,"end":904,"text":"那後來呢大家去了解"},{"start":904,"end":906,"text":"發現他是一個重度聽覺障礙者"},{"start":906,"end":908,"text":"從Line的對話裡面"},{"start":908,"end":910,"text":"好像他跟人家一問一答"},{"start":910,"end":912,"text":"也確實去超商領過包裹"},{"start":912,"end":914,"text":"那甚至對方也答應要給他50萬的報酬"},{"start":914,"end":916,"text":"所以直接看這些書面文字"},{"start":916,"end":918,"text":"就覺得他是個詐欺共犯"},{"start":918,"end":920,"text":"但是經過了解之後才發現"},{"start":920,"end":922,"text":"一個重度的聽覺障礙者"},{"start":922,"end":924,"text":"對於文字語意跟資訊的理解"},{"start":924,"end":926,"text":"其實是不能用一般人的標準去推論"},{"start":926,"end":928,"text":"所以不能夠因為犯罪類型"},{"start":928,"end":930,"text":"或是社會觀感"},{"start":930,"end":932,"text":"就認為這些法律輔助案"},{"start":932,"end":934,"text":"沒有協助"},{"start":934,"end":936,"text":"沒有協助的必要"},{"start":936,"end":938,"text":"這是我的想法"},{"start":938,"end":940,"text":"因為從過去太多的案件裡面"},{"start":940,"end":942,"text":"我們都看到了這些問題"},{"start":942,"end":944,"text":"所以我是希望說"},{"start":944,"end":946,"text":"您是不是可以直接告訴我"},{"start":946,"end":948,"text":"如果說我們今天法服"},{"start":948,"end":950,"text":"要往這個方向修正的話"},{"start":950,"end":952,"text":"那我們的公社辯護人"},{"start":952,"end":954,"text":"到底或是你剛講的議辯好了"},{"start":954,"end":956,"text":"到底能不能解決"},{"start":956,"end":958,"text":"找得到人的這個問題"},{"start":958,"end":960,"text":"因為說沒有人也是你們說的"},{"start":960,"end":962,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":962,"end":964,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":964,"end":966,"text":"是沒有錢不是沒有人"},{"start":966,"end":968,"text":"義務辯護就是要錢"},{"start":968,"end":970,"text":"其實大家都知道"},{"start":970,"end":972,"text":"現在律師很多"},{"start":972,"end":974,"text":"好所以沒關係我這樣聽起來就是說"},{"start":974,"end":976,"text":"只要有錢你們就找得到人"},{"start":976,"end":978,"text":"就有議辯"},{"start":978,"end":980,"text":"議辯也是要找啊"},{"start":980,"end":982,"text":"對 義務辯護就是在"},{"start":982,"end":984,"text":"律師公會一大堆"},{"start":984,"end":986,"text":"很多律師都有登記"},{"start":986,"end":988,"text":"他們願不願意接"},{"start":988,"end":990,"text":"其實這個各法院的"},{"start":990,"end":992,"text":"義務辯護是存在的"},{"start":992,"end":994,"text":"不是只有法服"},{"start":994,"end":996,"text":"我知道我知道 我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":996,"end":998,"text":"但是我覺得這個東西要不要"},{"start":998,"end":1000,"text":"往這個方向修法我覺得司法院自己的立場"},{"start":1000,"end":1002,"text":"跟態度也要清楚啦"},{"start":1002,"end":1004,"text":"法服到底要不要這樣修"},{"start":1004,"end":1006,"text":"我們要有辯護人"},{"start":1006,"end":1008,"text":"這個是最重要的"},{"start":1008,"end":1010,"text":"好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:47.733333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:49.933333+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:50.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:48:57.266667+08:00","text":"我們邀請司法院秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T10:48:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:00.571429+08:00","text":"請高秘書長，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:00.571429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:04.666667+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:04.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:07.333333+08:00","text":"秘書長早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:08.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:13.857143+08:00","text":"今天是想要跟秘書長請教有關於被害人訴訟參與制度，有幾件事情想要請秘書長來釐清。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:14.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:38.705882+08:00","text":"這次幾個刑事訴訟法修正草案都有進一步提到要擴張訴訟參與人的程序權利，目前是可以讓訴訟參與人表示意見，但是現在的版本是希望可以讓他聲請調查證據，可以詢問被告或者是證人，也可以去要求檢察官說明他們的理由。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:39.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:49:54.692308+08:00","text":"我想當今天我們要進一步把被害人的權利擴張到主動參與證據調查的時候，可能就會碰到刑事訴訟法裡面不同的角色權限配置。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:49:55.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:50:15.785714+08:00","text":"現行制度之下，訴訟參與人其實可以取得卷證資訊，也可以到庭參與準備程序跟審判程序，但是在現在的公訴程序裡面，檢察官的工作就是犯罪的追訴以及舉證的責任，所以這兩個角色其實是有差別的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:50:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:50:32.777778+08:00","text":"特別是檢察官對國家刑事犯罪追訴權還有客觀的義務，現在如果讓被害人參與的話，可能會有自己的個別利益，也可能會有對於自己案件事實、被告責任以及量刑的看法。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:50:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:50:43.789474+08:00","text":"所以今天如果訴訟參與人可以聲請調查證據，兩邊對某一項證據是不是有調查的必要、某一個事實是否重要，可能都會有不同的判斷。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:50:44.421053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:50:54.809524+08:00","text":"我今天看到司法院的書面報告，立場寫得非常清楚，審、檢、辯的三面關係是現行的制度，也是非常重要的訴訟結構。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:50:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:11.750000+08:00","text":"所以想要請秘書長說明，部分提案提到要進一步賦予訴訟參與人證據調查聲請權、證人發問權，甚至是詢問被告的權利，司法院認為被害人訴訟參與權的界線到底應該劃在哪裡？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:21.833333+08:00","text":"如果今天檢察官認為有些證據沒有必要調查的條件，可是被害人又認為有的時候，這時候又應該要怎麼辦呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:22.842105+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:25.789474+08:00","text":"是不是可以請秘書長說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:47+08:00","text":"我們在書面報告陳述得很清楚，沒有錯，因為被害人他是證人，所以我們在書面報告裡面也提到，被害人最重要是要由檢察官來負責照護義務，被害人如果再讓他可以聲請調查證據，會不會跟檢察官衝突？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:47.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:48.250000+08:00","text":"會不會矛盾？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:48.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:49.750000+08:00","text":"會不會不一致？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:51:53.764706+08:00","text":"這個在整個訴訟程序的進行一定會混亂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:51:54.307692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:01.692308+08:00","text":"同樣地，詰問也是一樣，會不會跟檢察官彼此之間矛盾。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:11.750000+08:00","text":"還有，一個案件裡面會有很多證人，因為被害人也是證人之一，他對其他證人可以詰問嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:12.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:17.714286+08:00","text":"所以我們建議一定要審慎地去評估。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:19.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:26.846154+08:00","text":"委員提案裡面的被害影響陳述其實很重要，可以列入。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:28.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:46.666667+08:00","text":"我們現在訴訟法規定的被害人參與，他已經可以獲知卷證資訊，也可以到庭陳述，所以在調查證據跟詰問這一塊一定要審慎評估。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:52:47.222222+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:52:47.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:53:11.806452+08:00","text":"我下一個問題就是想要請教，您剛剛有提到訴訟參與人同時也是被害人以及證人，被害人他並不是程序的參與人，在很多的案件裡面他也是犯罪事實非常重要的證據來源，特別是像性侵害、家庭暴力這些案件裡面，被害人的證述本身就有可能是法院來認定是不是犯罪事實的部分。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:53:12.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:53:39.714286+08:00","text":"如果同一個人一方面是案件的重要證人，他又可以用訴訟參與人的身分來閱卷、聽取其他證人的陳述、知道被告的答辯，法院後續在評價他的證言的時候，就必須去確認到底他的陳述來自於自身對原本事件的記憶，還是看了很多訴訟資訊之後產生的記憶，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:53:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:53:47.666667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，委員問到一個醫學上的重點，是記憶，還是自己創造的記憶？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:53:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:53:57.733333+08:00","text":"他當然是證人，他也是被害人，法官在訴訟指揮上就要去注意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:53:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:54:27.833333+08:00","text":"同樣地，對於被害人的陳述跟他在證人的陳述，法官在認定上，這個就是法官非常重要的職責，一定要讓他陳述，可是判斷的是法官，這是整個卷證資料去判斷，所以被害人的陳述絕對要存在，可是同樣地，要不要讓他聲請調查證據跟詰問，這個可能真的要仔細思考。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:54:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:54:39.823529+08:00","text":"對，我想這個就是剛剛我們講的一個重點，法官就會無法去判斷這到底是基於自己的經驗，還是因為看了太多的訴訟證據之後產生的，這就會造成我們在實務上面的困難。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:54:42.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:54:49.764706+08:00","text":"現在有提出這樣子修正的版本，您認為在實務上面有沒有辦法避免呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:54:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:54:52.823529+08:00","text":"是有辦法經過程序設計上面來避免的嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:54:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:54:53.888889+08:00","text":"還是您覺得是無法的？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:54:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:55:01.777778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，程序上，因為訴訟前調查證據、交互詰問就這樣一直走、一直走。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:55:02.238095+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:55:18.750000+08:00","text":"當被害人聲請調查證據跟檢察官混亂的時候，甚至打亂檢察官證明犯罪事實的證據策略的時候，會造成程序的混亂，法官也會跟著混亂。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:55:19.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:55:32.555556+08:00","text":"當然法官還是要判斷，如果立法是這樣通過的話，法官還是要判斷，可是它所造成的程序冗長，我相信是可以預測的。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:55:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:55:39.928571+08:00","text":"程序冗長以及可能法官在做判斷的時候，會造成非常大的困難。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:55:41.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:16.809524+08:00","text":"我也想請教一下，被告的防禦權這次也有提到，現在被告原則上是針對檢察官起訴的犯罪事實及提出的證據來進行防禦，但是如果未來訴訟參與人可以另外提出聲請調查證據，就可能會出現檢察官和訴訟參與人對於不同的待證事實會有不同的證據主張，特別是如果一個案件有超過一個以上的被害人的時候，每一個被害人他們要如何來聲請這些證據？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:17.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:20.750000+08:00","text":"可能就會造成一個非常混亂的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:21.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:41.818182+08:00","text":"特別的是說，如果檢察官認為某一件事情跟犯罪成立沒有關係，所以沒有調查，但是訴訟參與人認為非常重要，就因此另外聲請調查；或者是檢察官對證人的詰問已經結束，可是訴訟參與人又從另外一個角度提出一系列的問題，面對訴訟的攻防範圍可能就會非常非常的不一樣。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:42.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:48.782609+08:00","text":"我不曉得對於這件事情，您認為有辦法透過程序來保障攻防的平衡嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:50.866667+08:00","text":"還是您認為基本上是沒有辦法的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:51.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:56:55.600000+08:00","text":"幾乎是不可能，我如果賦予他權利，他當然可以行使。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:56:56.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:57:21.800000+08:00","text":"對檢察官，還有另外對被告……因為刑事訴訟有三面關係：法官、檢方、辯方，檢察官要負責照護被害人，其實被害人所有要聲請調查的證據，應該是向檢察官提出；他要詰問，也可以向檢察官聲請，檢察官要盡到照護義務。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:57:22.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:57:50.642857+08:00","text":"在整個程序上，因為檢察官要負責起訴，將來在公訴程序上要讓被告定罪，所以他有一定的證據調查、詰問的策略，但是當被害人有聲請調查權還有詰問權的話，彼此之間很難不發生混亂的狀況。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:57:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:58:12.777778+08:00","text":"對，所以聽起來還是回到……其實根本的原因就是我們剛剛所討論到的，就是這整個程序上面跟這三個的架構關係會完全錯亂，可能會造成實務上面審判判斷非常困難，而且程序上面非常冗長，所以被害人得到正義的時間可能也會等待得更漫長。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:58:14.421053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:58:15.842105+08:00","text":"這部分我就先問到這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:58:16.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:58:18.833333+08:00","text":"我還有一個有關於法扶的問題想要請教。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:58:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:58:35.083333+08:00","text":"我上個禮拜有看到國民黨委員要求法扶不得替特定幾類重大犯罪的加害人辯護，似乎好像也有跟司法院取得一些共識，所以我今天想要釐清一下。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:58:35.916667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:58:53.818182+08:00","text":"現行刑事訴訟法第三十一條就有規定，最輕本刑為三年以上有期徒刑案件本來就屬於強制辯護的案件，如果他沒有辦法自己請律師的話，法院依法就必須指定公設辯護人或是其他律師來幫他辯護。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:58:54.227273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:59:20.600000+08:00","text":"這個強制辯護是從民國24年就已經有的既有制度，也就是說，這個制度已經差不多要100年了，像是殺人、毒駕致死、強制性交跟重大虐童致死、致重傷的案件，本來就有相當的一部分是屬於強制辯護，所以今天即使是法扶不幫他辯護好了，我們還是要透過公設辯護人或是幫他找到辯護人才能夠讓審判繼續進行。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:59:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:59:44.857143+08:00","text":"所以我想問，你們自己過去有公開表示，其實現在公設辯護制度一直都有人力缺口的問題、找不到人，所以如果今天依法要幫他找到公設辯護人、要強制辯護，可是我們又不讓法扶去派律師的時候，到底要怎麼進行這些案件？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T10:59:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:59:46.833333+08:00","text":"這些案件還能夠繼續進行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:59:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:59:50.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，強制辯護並不等同於法扶。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:59:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T10:59:58.750000+08:00","text":"強制辯護一定要存在，這是正當法律程序，只是強制辯護這件事要由誰來擔當？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T10:59:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:07.333333+08:00","text":"早期是律師或公設辯護人，法扶成立後很多案件就慢慢派給法扶……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳：對，所以我的問題就是","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:10.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:10.894737+08:00","text":"現在沒有人願意擔任公設辯護人。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:11.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:19.700000+08:00","text":"這是國家政策，不過法扶所負擔的責任與工作範圍到底多大？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:22.625000+08:00","text":"雖然這是國家政策。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:23.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:32.764706+08:00","text":"古時候沒有法扶，卻有義辯，即義務辯護人，而義務辯護人也要承擔強制辯護案件。","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:33.461538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:41.666667+08:00","text":"如果這次委員要求法扶對某些案件不能……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:45.571429+08:00","text":"不能強制辯護？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:54.750000+08:00","text":"對，不能請法扶為辯護律師的話，那麼就一定會走向義辯，義務辯護……","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:00:55.250000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:00:55.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:07.666667+08:00","text":"秘書長，我現在的問題在於，如果我們真的要求法扶不做強制辯護，到底……畢竟我們的公設辯護制度長期缺人，這是你們之前說的。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:08.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:12.666667+08:00","text":"因此，不走法扶的話就一定要找公設辯護人，或自己去找律師，對不對？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:13.857143+08:00","text":"還有義務辯護。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:14.800000+08:00","text":"義務辯護？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:15.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:20.833333+08:00","text":"我的問題是，不管是義務辯護或公設辯護人，真的有辦法承接現在強制辯護的能量嗎？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:21.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:31.562500+08:00","text":"如果法扶法就這樣修正通過，那我們當然就要去完成此一艱鉅任務。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:33.900000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是，你們找得到人就對了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:38.875000+08:00","text":"各地方法院現場都找得到人就對了？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:39.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:48.538462+08:00","text":"其實不是我們找得到人，這要用錢，因為義務辯護跟律師公會彼此之間有建立管道……","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:49.888889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:01:55.823529+08:00","text":"秘書長，抱歉，我時間真的很有限，而我今天只想確認一個實務問題。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:01:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:13.833333+08:00","text":"也就是如果今天真的要修法讓法扶無法做強制辯護，那麼司法院到底有沒有人……這畢竟是法律規定，即第三十一條的規定，某些特別的案型一定要有公設辯護人，或有人幫他辯護，這是法律規定，所以一定要這樣做。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:14.307692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:18.812500+08:00","text":"如果今天決定要這樣修，那就要考慮將來現場到底能不能找得到人？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:20.875000+08:00","text":"如果找不到人的話，會造成什麼樣的問題？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:21.933333+08:00","text":"其實就是審判無法繼續進行！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:25.750000+08:00","text":"審判不能繼續進行時，請問被害人跟家屬的正義又要如何保障？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:28+08:00","text":"我今天的問題就在這裡。對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:28.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:33.750000+08:00","text":"如同委員所說，當法扶不能接這些案件時，就是走向義務辯護。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:44.857143+08:00","text":"其實各法院都有義務辯護人，因為公設辯護人不足，而法扶也無法因應所有案件，當然，也不是所有案件都符合法扶標準，所以這是錢的問題！","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:45.312500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:49.687500+08:00","text":"錢是要花在法扶，還是要花在義務辯護上？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:50.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:53.800000+08:00","text":"我想確定一件事情，有錢到底能不能找得到人？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:54.888889+08:00","text":"這其實是一個很大的問號。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:56.866667+08:00","text":"現在我們就算有錢，很多地方也都找不到人！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:02:57.750000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:02:58.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:03.857143+08:00","text":"如果今天往這方向修法的話，那就要先回到實務面，要考慮會不會產生什麼樣的後果？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:11.777778+08:00","text":"就像我們前面討論修正刑事訴訟法一樣，實務上到底會造成什麼後果，這樣大家才能審慎思考到底要不要這樣修！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:12.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:30.571429+08:00","text":"再來，就法扶而言，其實法扶的意義本來就不是先判定一個人到底值不值得幫，而是確保法院在判一個人有罪之前，可以把對他有利的事實與法律的問題完整提出來，這是當時設計法扶的前提所在。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:31.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:32.833333+08:00","text":"我舉兩個案例。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:33.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:42.500000+08:00","text":"一個是過去的王光祿案，原本都已經判刑確定了，可是在法扶律師團的協助下，後續經過救濟程序，最後被判無罪！","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:43.588235+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:03:52.846154+08:00","text":"今年法扶也有一個實際案例，一開始他被認為是詐欺共犯，經過了解才發現原來是一個重度聽覺障礙者。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:03:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:00.866667+08:00","text":"從LINE的對話來看，像在跟人家一問一答，也確實去超商領過包裹，甚至對方也答應要給他50萬的報酬。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:01.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:12.866667+08:00","text":"如果直接看這些書面文字會覺得他是詐欺共犯，但經過了解才發現，一個重度的聽覺障礙者，對於文字、語意跟資訊的理解其實不能用一般人的標準去推論。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:24.666667+08:00","text":"所以不能因為犯罪類型或社會觀感，就認為這些法律扶助案沒有協助的必要，這是我的想法。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:25.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:44.777778+08:00","text":"過去有太多案件讓我們看到這些問題，所以您是不是可以直接告訴我，如果今天法扶要往這方向修正的話，那麼公設辯護人，或你剛剛講的義辯，到底能否解決找不找得到人的問題？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:45.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:46.833333+08:00","text":"說沒有人也是你們說的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:56.714286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，是沒有錢，不是沒有人，其實義務辯護就是要錢，這點大家都知道。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:04:58.666667+08:00","text":"現在律師很多，他願不願意……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:04:59.933333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:02.818182+08:00","text":"這樣聽起來就是，只要有錢你們就找得到人，對嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:04.500000+08:00","text":"就有義辯，義務辯護人。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:04.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:05.500000+08:00","text":"就找得到人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:05.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:06.428571+08:00","text":"義辯也是要找，不是嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:14.714286+08:00","text":"對、對，律師公會有一大堆義務辯護……不能講一大堆，很多律師都有登記義辯，只是他們願不願意接而已。","quality":0.561},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:20.333333+08:00","text":"其實各法院的義務辯護是存在的，不是只有法扶。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳：我知道。我現在的問題是","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:24.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:25.666667+08:00","text":"要不要往這方向修法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳：我知道。我現在的問題是","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:25.777778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:28.500000+08:00","text":"我覺得司法院自己的立場跟態度也要清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:28.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:29.500000+08:00","text":"是，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:30.800000+08:00","text":"法扶到底要不要這樣修……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:34.714286+08:00","text":"我們要有辯護人，這是最重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:36.333333+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）：我現在先作會議程序的宣告","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:36.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:45.690476+08:00","text":"現在已經超過11點了，待會沈發惠委員詢答完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）：我現在先作會議程序的宣告","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:45.990476+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:48.561905+08:00","text":"讓大家去上個洗手間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）：我現在先作會議程序的宣告","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:48.861905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:54.004762+08:00","text":"待會休息5分鐘之後我們再繼續後續的詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）：我現在先作會議程序的宣告","start":"2026-08-19T11:05:54.304762+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:05:57.733333+08:00","text":"現在請沈發惠委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}