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首先林國成委員"},{"start":1910.684,"end":1938.323,"text":"張祺凱委員現在介紹列席官員國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委陳崇樹主委綜合規劃處溫俊瑜處長基礎設施處陳春木處長平台事業管理處黃天陽副處長電台與內容事務處林惠玲處長網際網路傳播辦公室張文旭主任"},{"start":1939.963,"end":1968.328,"text":"法律事務處蔡智奴處長北區監理處蔡國棟處長金管會陳湘瑩副組長經濟部發展署商業發展署政策規劃組熊立恆副組長勞動部勞動基金運用局李志柔主秘內政部民政司戴淑黃專門委員"},{"start":1971.004,"end":1995.952,"text":"法務部李子祺檢察官司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳林靜超法官行政院主計處公務預算處黃子涵專門委員謝謝本日會議議程進行審查衛星廣播電視法修正草案共9案"},{"start":1996.604,"end":2001.032,"text":"首先先請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請台灣民眾黨黨團代表說明"},{"start":2021.775,"end":2027.369,"text":"首先要感謝孟愷排了這麼重要的衛星廣播電視法的一個修正案這個電視新聞啊"},{"start":2032.049,"end":2060.137,"text":"對一個國家的發展非常的重要它對於民主跟法治的深化跟發展非常大的一個影響力可是呢一直有被批評說是不是黨檢沒一體或者是我們電視台大量必須仰賴政府的補助跟採購案所以台灣民眾黨在去年就提出了改革三件的修正案包括第一個要求"},{"start":2061.717,"end":2089.287,"text":"電視新聞這個公司必須要公開發行要公開發行第二件是要求他的股權資訊有揭露的義務還有財務的資訊有揭露的義務第三支件也非常重要就是一直被詬病的很多電視台拿了很多政府的採購跟補助所以我們明確要求採購補助跟廣告的主要來源你有揭露的義務"},{"start":2090.607,"end":2111.472,"text":"這三支箭很重要的就是透過一個公開透明讓全國民眾可以知道這些電視台他到底拿了政府多少的採購跟補助我們很期待透過這樣的一個改革可以讓我們電視台回到正軌回到正軌不要變成是一個黨結盟一體所以早在兩年前"},{"start":2112.552,"end":2138.543,"text":"柯文哲在競選的時候這就是一個非常熱門的議題了民眾的要求也非常明確所以我們這次提出了有幾個重要的修正案包括原來的第4條我們增訂了第4項就是明訂請大家可以看 明訂只要是經營新聞跟財經頻道或者是直播新聞節目的頻道的衛星廣播電視事業"},{"start":2139.824,"end":2168.299,"text":"他要向證券主管機關辦理股票公開發行就是要公開的這個發行第二個我們明定 針對的第12條之一只要是經營新聞跟財經頻道或者直播新聞節目的頻道衛星廣播事業應該依照主管機關指定的方向在"},{"start":2169.159,"end":2191.921,"text":"每一年的6月30號以前將前一年度一些重要的資訊必須要公開在我們主管機關就是NCC所指定的網站跟該事業的網站上面讓全民可以共同來檢視公開透明裡面比較大家很關心的就是第六款明定"},{"start":2192.902,"end":2210.166,"text":"你如果從政府機關或者公立學校或者公營事業或者其他監處成立的財團法人只要是取得的採購標案的內容你還有金額跟各項的這個補助的這個金額必須要"},{"start":2212.239,"end":2228.147,"text":"申報而且在網站上面讓大家可以共同來檢視另外第7款明定主要的廣告來源第8款也非常重要第8款就是因為之前我們的法令明定電視台不能夠去經營有線電視"},{"start":2231.108,"end":2249.917,"text":"就是不能去經營第四台可是之前發生了竟然有電視台去經營了有線電視而且它經過一層一層的整個逃避結果變成說連NCC的主委來這邊答詢都說這個依照現行的法規沒辦法去追究所以我們增訂了第八款"},{"start":2250.717,"end":2274.712,"text":"明確的規範以後只要是負責人董事或者監察人經紀人跟直接或間接持有已經發行有表決權股份你只要超過十分之一以上的股東的投資事業我覺得你不能在那邊躲就是一層一層例如說你本來去買的可能是超過五層可是你透過其他公司一層一層到後來說我只有"},{"start":2275.772,"end":2287.608,"text":"佔有的這個可能5%或者10%我們現在明確的增加了這個第八款你只要超十份超過10%就像以前引起過病的這家電視台"},{"start":2289.508,"end":2310.298,"text":"去投資了第四台它只要超過10%都必須明確的規範這個案子我們在一年多前就提出了非常謝謝今天終於有機會可以來討論也期待經過台灣民眾黨提出的改革三件讓我們的電視台可以公開透明在財務 在廣告"},{"start":2312.139,"end":2336.832,"text":"在採購案的公開透明讓我們的電視台回到正軌為我們整個國家社會的法治民生民主的發展有更大的貢獻也讓我們的電視台有更多更多的收入而不是只有靠政府的補助跟採購案 謝謝好 謝謝張吉凱委員再來請翁曉琳委員做提案說明那下一位羅志強委員"},{"start":2347,"end":2364.234,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位官員們大家好今天非常感謝洪孟凱召委排審衛星廣播電視法的修正草案我們知道在現今的網路還有廣電媒體百花齊放的今天我們重新檢討對於"},{"start":2366.775,"end":2393.246,"text":"傳統的衛星電視的管制密度那麼過去我們其實對於廣電業者不管是衛廣 無廣 有廣的這個業者都是像是在管教乖寶寶 乖學生一樣的採取比較高密度的監理但是呢在數位匯流的浪潮底下這種思維還有必要嗎會不會過於僵化那麼在維護媒體的新聞自由言論自由同時呢為了要"},{"start":2395.527,"end":2413.809,"text":"健全广电事业的发展我们参考美国国家对于卫广事业普遍采取低密度的建立做法所以本席这次提出了卫星广播电视法的修正草案核心的理念就是要适度的松绑管制"},{"start":2414.349,"end":2423.232,"text":"提高新聞自由以及電視台衛星頻道業者的權益保障目前衛星廣播電視業者的執照期間是6年期間是每3年辦理評鑑"},{"start":2429.534,"end":2434.176,"text":"但是在現行的制度底下其實第二次的評鑑常常就是會跟換照審查重疊處理完評鑑之後可能要馬上申請換照造成實務上的困擾所以我的提案就是把現在的執照的時間有效的延長一年"},{"start":2445.379,"end":2472.84,"text":"让凭鉴和换照的时间不再重叠让业者更能够专注于提升节目品质稳定营运那么第二点就是我在这里这次也提出人民依法向政府申请申涉变更的登记那政府依法审查的时间必须要明定清楚那由于目前审查期间没有时间的限制所以只能让申请业者默默的等待"},{"start":2473.3,"end":2489.018,"text":"那因此了为了避免申请案的审理期间长期处于未定的状态就悬而未决那么第二个也为了避免政府行政怠惰拖延审查的时间影响申请人的权益所以呢本期在这里呢也提出要"},{"start":2490.299,"end":2504.637,"text":"明确规范审查期间定定主管机关审查卫星广播电视事业的申请案以及营运计划变更案的期限规定最长就是四到六个月那么来督促主管机关可以尽数的审理"},{"start":2505.953,"end":2523.955,"text":"那第三点就是我们也鼓励优良业者可以有条件的免于凭借然后进行换照那只要业者在执照有效期间之内如果受罚的次数还有他累积的罚还金额都没有达到特定的门槛他表现出良好的经营能力"},{"start":2524.435,"end":2553.098,"text":"就可以免於評鑑那事實上我們現在的設計是三年之內三次以下八十萬以下的罰環就可以自動換照那麼這個就可以免於評鑑那麼如果說是這個在執照有效期間之內有累積六次以下的也就是六次以內的處罰然後五百萬以內的罰環的話那麼就可以自動的換照那麼所以呢我想這是對於表現優良業者的肯定我們簡化"},{"start":2554.099,"end":2578.995,"text":"繁複的程序來讓大家把時間和資源花在製作更好的節目上面那第四點就是我們也考量到撤照跟不予換照的處分會對於媒體和觀眾的影響非常大而且造成巨大的損害難以回復所以這次本席也提案修訂未廣業者如果對於廢紙執照或駁回"},{"start":2579.855,"end":2607.261,"text":"换照的处分不符的话可以提起行政诉讼在法院判决确定之前仍然可以继续营运下去那这项修法除了是为了保障业者的生存权和经营权同时也是为了要保障全国观众收视多元性的权益那除了这四个四大点之外我们还增加了规定要求主管机关要召开的申设凭借换照等等咨询会议的名单和会议记录呢"},{"start":2607.602,"end":2613.737,"text":"必須要公開來提升行政的透明度讓獨立機關的運作更能夠受到公平"},{"start":2615.014,"end":2632.842,"text":"我想適度的鬆綁並不等於放任而是對於媒體專業的尊重更是對閱聽人智慧的信任所以我在這裡當然也請各位委員能夠支持這樣的提案另外本席還有提出一個就是重新再修正衛星廣播電視法第50條主要是連結到黨政軍退出媒體的條款"},{"start":2638.365,"end":2653.833,"text":"我們知道現在黨政軍退出媒體的條款他主要是為了要維護新聞自由和媒體獨立性而設下重要防線目的就是要求政府跟政黨不得透過任何方式來介入媒體的經營然而現在微信廣播電視法第五十條的法則規定呢竟然不是處罰這個投資者而是處罰這個被投資的微信廣播電視業者"},{"start":2663.177,"end":2678.975,"text":"那這樣的法條的設計其實是呈現的是荒謬以及不公平的那在過去其實歷史業者被處罰的案件屢屢都被行政法院撤回所以"},{"start":2679.935,"end":2702.729,"text":"由此可見衛星網部電視法第五十條有關於處罰的規定實在是有必要要進行修正那當然修正這樣的條文就可以避免讓業者在不可抗力的因素底下無端成為法規荒謬的這個犧牲品那麼讓我們一起可以還給媒體一個公平合理的經營環境以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁小玲委員再請盧志強委員提案說明"},{"start":2716.857,"end":2744.016,"text":"民進黨對不起鄭南榮鄭南榮是民進黨視為所謂的言論自由之父然後他這輩子最大的主張就是要保證百分之百的言論自由但民進黨上台後的第一件事情就是關新聞台用NCC當作東廠"},{"start":2745.666,"end":2774.005,"text":"來去強害新聞自由然後關掉新聞台最近又找個藉口把這個小紅書也封掉也去開始伸向網路對民進黨來說只要解決不了問題就解決可以發現民進黨問題的人可以看見民進黨問題的人可以提出民進黨問題的人"},{"start":2776.055,"end":2805.575,"text":"所以今天有關於衛廣法的修正案本席的第一個重點就是要還給我們新聞台無冕王的充分的自由不要再受NCC這個東廠所箝制所以衛廣法我修正第一條就把捍衛新聞自由放進去我提醒這些東廠們好好想想"},{"start":2807.878,"end":2833.219,"text":"民主前輩為我們爭取的包括民進黨的名字叫民主進步包括新聞自由的神聖就被過去的NCC糟蹋掉了所以第一條我修的就是告訴大家要捍衛新聞自由不要忘了今天NCC不是讓你來到東廠"},{"start":2835.567,"end":2863.738,"text":"來去護航執政者來去消滅有意見的新聞台第二個我要特別強調也在我們修法當中我們應該要回到新聞充分自由的精神也就是說不管是今天換照 評鑑我們要求就是第一個 公開透明第二個 權力節制"},{"start":2866.001,"end":2894.806,"text":"第三個應該要由閱聽大眾來決定這個新聞台到底該不該在市場上繼續存在而不是由今天所謂的執政者的意志來決定新聞台到底該死還是該活第三個在我們修法重點當中也要"},{"start":2896.566,"end":2924.546,"text":"矯正正義過去被民進黨強害的新聞台中天新聞台今天如果行政訴訟終了今天法院判決確定是你民進黨 你執政者在強害新聞自由的話抱歉 誰傷害新聞自由誰就必須恢復新聞自由所造成的傷害"},{"start":2925.97,"end":2953.742,"text":"要回復原狀所以呢我們也要求在新的修法當中能夠把今天被民進黨用所謂的權力的傲慢濫用東廠來去傷害的新聞台也必須回復他的權力只要能夠在法院的最後的程序終了"},{"start":2956.294,"end":2983.939,"text":"如果今天一直敗訴的NCC繼續敗訴的話中天新聞台必須恢復 謝謝好 謝謝再請葉元之委員提案說明也要說"},{"start":3001.419,"end":3005.103,"text":"主席在場的各位同仁還有各位官員"},{"start":3006.696,"end":3031.388,"text":"今天我提出來的是衛星廣播電視法第11條的修正草案目的只有一個讓媒體回歸市場把自由還給人民我們都知道美國的開國元勳傑佛遜他講過一句話他如果如果有報紙而無政府或者是有政府而無政府而有報紙他將毫無"},{"start":3032.368,"end":3060.894,"text":"猶豫的選擇後者對於一個民主而言媒體比政府還重要這是美國開闊圓虛告訴大家的所以新聞自由就是民主的基石政府不能夠制定任何破壞新聞自由的法律這個也被寫在美國的憲法第一修正案裡面所以美國因為對新聞自由的高度保障所以他們的民主可以持續"},{"start":3062.074,"end":3084.908,"text":"而台灣呢因為給了NCC一個手段可以把一個新聞台關掉所以就會產生寒蟬效應讓媒體因為害怕得罪當局而遭到關台的命運所以我這邊的衛星廣播電視把第11條修正草案是提出來把"},{"start":3086.092,"end":3113.901,"text":"NCC關台的權利把它取消回歸法律的管制也就是說如果電視台他犯了法就有相關的法律來規範例如說他違反了廣告相關規定那你可以罰他比如說他比如說報導了新三色或不雅的內容你也可以罰他他如果有犯法的行為詐欺各種你可以罰他但是不能夠有關他的權利"},{"start":3115.222,"end":3143.695,"text":"那這個也比較符合數位匯流時代的一個潮流因為大家都知道過去為什麼會對電視台有管制是因為頻道稀有頻道稀有的情況之下你又用到公共的評普所以當然你電視台必須負擔比較高的一個社會責任但現在數位匯流了頻道一大堆啊你在網路上在YouTube一個比較有影響力的一個頻道它可能"},{"start":3145.353,"end":3168.416,"text":"的影響力不亞於電視台但我們現在對於網路其實是採取一個網路自由的態度充分的讓網路上面的人表達意見但是唯獨對類似的經營者電視台有高度的管制甚至可以關台這個已經不符合數位匯流時代的潮流了"},{"start":3169.016,"end":3177.925,"text":"所以基於對新聞自由的尊重也基於數位匯流的這樣的一個潮流我這邊的提案是把"},{"start":3179.571,"end":3202.856,"text":"是刪除衛星廣播電視指導期限改為無確定期限但是我特別要強調這不是說電視台犯法沒有關係它犯法還是有相關一定的規範所以回歸法律的管理然後這個刪除NCC官台的權利這就是我以上的提案內容 謝謝好 感謝葉仁芝委員"},{"start":3204.454,"end":3211.487,"text":"現在再請列席機關報告首先請國家通訊傳播委員會陳崇樹代理主委報告"},{"start":3226.337,"end":3249.732,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位女士 各位先生 大家好今天應邀列席貴委員會就羅志強委員 台灣民眾黨團陳雪生委員 傅坤祺委員 翁曉琳委員 葉遠芝委員還有趙偉 彭孟凱 趙偉 還有徐志傑委員等提的9個案來做"},{"start":3251.263,"end":3274.043,"text":"提案的部分提出本會的意見進行指教那我這邊分就這個九個案來比較偏議題式的方式來說明那第一個許智傑委員召委胡孟凱提案的修正衛廣法第64條的部分那這邊是主要是"},{"start":3275.044,"end":3302.895,"text":"针对着远于他类频道很多的母公司是公开发行公司他在申请这个未管执照的时候会涉及到党政军的部分这个目前党政军的问题目前还没有公司来处理所以希望能够在延长申请执照的期限以凝聚这个给予党政军条款更多修法公司的空间那这一部分那NC的意见是"},{"start":3304.915,"end":3325.483,"text":"考量各界對黨政軍條款的目前還是在多方在討論還沒有確切的解決到之前那過渡期間如果採將64條第二項的規定從三年過渡期間修正為四年那NCC這邊立場尊重委員提案"},{"start":3326.451,"end":3354.36,"text":"那第二部分針對委員陳雪生還有傅坤祺委員還有翁曉琳委員提出的案子這一塊主要是牽涉到黨政軍還有相關條文的處理以及包括這個相關的一些對應的一些一些細節那這邊細節部分我這邊就不再贅述那可請參考相關的資料那針對這一部分"},{"start":3355.74,"end":3367.344,"text":"本會的意見是大致略移那陳雪仙委員針對間接持股上限有排除政府基金或者國營事業投資的部分那我們認為說"},{"start":3369.507,"end":3388.871,"text":"縱使允許特定目的縱使允許特定的投資但是持股達一定的比率他其實還是有實質控制的可能那另外傅坤祺委員將經營投資的區隔那但是我們認為說他認為提案認為說還是"},{"start":3393.792,"end":3406.38,"text":"不得介入控制的要件 這個利益很好但是在個案執行上 主管機關NCC這邊 其實是很難以來認定那這個條款也不易執行"},{"start":3407.731,"end":3431.633,"text":"那針對翁曉蓮委員她剛剛有跟各位說明她是刪除第50條這一部分的罰則那這邊我們認為說如果這個罰則對應可以修如果完全都刪掉不是提出修正的話那黨軍條款的一些拘束的部分就斷空了所以鑑於黨軍條款"},{"start":3434.309,"end":3450.202,"text":"對於衛廣法規定的我們認為說除了衛廣法之外無廣法有限廣播電視法也有相同的規範所以NCC的建議說這個廣電三法應該要做一致性的處理在黨政軍這個議題上面"},{"start":3451.883,"end":3466.706,"text":"第三 針對羅志祥委員提的衛港法第一條 第二條 十一條 十七條 十九條以及翁小玲委員提的第五案還有剛剛岳遠之委員提的第十一條的涉及到"},{"start":3468.444,"end":3492.743,"text":"衛廣執照的效期的部分還有評鑑換照的這一部分那這邊我們NCC的意見大致就是在第六頁這邊我們認為新聞自由是憲法上的制度性保障這是一個在台灣憲法學界普遍強調的核心概念"},{"start":3493.755,"end":3520.488,"text":"那我們認為為了確保新聞體制本身作為民主社會的第四權能夠獨立且有效的運作免於政治或經濟力的不當干預那最終目的是要確保資訊多元公共意見的自由形成以及人民知的權利的獲得滿足以促進公共利益的實現由於新聞自由是"},{"start":3521.744,"end":3532.782,"text":"制度性的保障而非單純個人權利這就成為本會或者國家對媒體進行適度管制的憲法基礎"},{"start":3534.834,"end":3558.117,"text":"當新聞機構本身的內控失靈違規頻繁導致資訊單一實質上就破壞了剛剛前面講的資訊多元與公共監督這個制度性保障的目的這個時候國家介入比方說就深造深造省造的制度的目的那"},{"start":3559.358,"end":3577.031,"text":"身患省照的也不是限制言論而是為了維護新聞制度的健康使他能夠持續實現公共利益第二點那有關衛廣深色案審查期限縮短的這一部分那"},{"start":3577.851,"end":3593.461,"text":"本會認為本會過往還有未來目前的做法上是有分形式審查召開專家學者執行 舉行諮詢會議以及提到委員會層層審查那有時候還需要請業者來補件"},{"start":3595.702,"end":3619.634,"text":"審查的期程其實是有相當的一些時間這是目的是為了維持審查案件的品質以及顧及到業者的權益所以我們認為要盡情維持現有的條文第三 衛廣執照的執照制度包括深色 屏間 幻照等機制那目前這個"},{"start":3622.778,"end":3647.263,"text":"6個案子 就是委員的提案版本它的期限包括7年 9年 永久以及不確定的期限這個將連動評鑑機制除了未廣電視事業外 其實也涉及到整體廣電政策的相關條文的修正這是有連動性的 你直到拉短"},{"start":3648.323,"end":3675.881,"text":"或變長 那評鑑制度是不是要相應做一些調整那為求審慎本會就是建議這一部分要多多聽取外界的意見以求周全那有關若提起行政救濟在訴願期間或行政訴訟確定判決前執照繼續有效而且效率述及既往這一部分那本會認為"},{"start":3678.619,"end":3705.819,"text":"不服NCC廢紙執照及撥回申請換照處分在向行政法院提起行政訴訟在本案判決確定前這一部分那我們認為說以現行的行政程序法第110條第三項規定行政處分未經撤銷廢紙或其他事由失效者其效率繼續存在第二個現行行政訴訟法第116條第一項規定"},{"start":3708.277,"end":3716.338,"text":"原處分的執行不應 除法律另有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止"},{"start":3717.284,"end":3740.511,"text":"那行政法院認為如果原處分或決定的執行將發生困難難以恢復的話其實現有的116條的第2項及第3項都有相關的一些救濟制度在這邊那行政法院其實他可以根據受處分人的申請或訴願人的申請來裁定停止執行所以"},{"start":3741.69,"end":3759.237,"text":"行政處分在經過通知生效後他發生循序力在未經撤銷廢止或其他事由失效前其效力繼續存在處分機關與相對人或利害關係人同受該行政處分的拘束"},{"start":3760.427,"end":3783.152,"text":"且有效的行政處分因為處分機關以外的其他機關包括法院的尊重並以之為構成計存的構成要件的事實作為其本身決定的基礎故在行政程序未終結前當事人都可以依上述的相關規定請求暫時權力保護"},{"start":3787.862,"end":3812.825,"text":"現行機制已有相關的處理保障人民的權益草案委員所提的草案跟上述的法律規定跟立法機關行政機關的執行司法機關救濟的這個三權分立原則是有是並不相合故是否停止行政處分的效力應該由法院依法判斷及審查"},{"start":3815.509,"end":3816.112,"text":"五有關諮詢委員會議的記錄的部分"},{"start":3821.111,"end":3841.186,"text":"諮詢委員會的建議其實是供委員會議的一些參考他並不是最終的決議那如果公開諮詢會議委員的名單恐怕會影響諮詢委員的獨立客觀表達意見或擔任諮詢委員的意願恐怕會有礙諮詢委員會議的組成或召開延宕聲色評鑑及換照的時程"},{"start":3846.789,"end":3856.525,"text":"第四 有關台灣民眾黨團提慰光法是關於這個財務揭露公開發行的這一部分那本會的意見是認為"},{"start":3861.584,"end":3889.238,"text":"民眾黨團的提案的他的說明是根據是參考油管法的部分但是考量油管法系統基因值他是有向訂戶收取收市費用為強化監理機制當年主管機關才會定這個要求資本額達一定的金額以上目前是2億元以上要辦理股票公開發行但是有限電視"},{"start":3890.686,"end":3908.612,"text":"系统业者他跟一般频道业者的规模差异其实蛮大的那营业额或他的商业模式也完全不是很完全不同那是否要科与相同的义务那渐行横着"},{"start":3909.554,"end":3922.356,"text":"另外草案有明定揭露事業的名稱地址負責人資訊這一部分在經濟部的工商登記資料裡頭已經有涵蓋那似乎沒有必要重新重複規定"},{"start":3924.212,"end":3948.069,"text":"那第三個有關揭露政府補助的部分目前預算法第60條第一項有規定政府補助相關的機關補助的機關必須在自己的官網揭露也必須在主地總署的官網來揭露這一塊可以說是已經有一些執行揭露的一些機制故建議可以回歸預算法的規定就源頭企業管理"},{"start":3949.911,"end":3965.661,"text":"最後這個未廣法他並不是專營新聞頻道有些公司他除了有新聞頻道也有其他綜合台或戲劇的節目固兼營其他營業項目的公司如果要求他股票公開發行或揭露相關財務事項"},{"start":3967.873,"end":3996.016,"text":"能否确保新闻专业自主或促进资讯透明的目的能够达成这一部分我们是渐行能够征询各界意见来求周全最后结语因数位汇流产业结构逐渐在转型营运模式和间谍的实务需要NCC将会通盘检视广电三法适时修正相关法规以应实地需求"},{"start":3997.011,"end":4014.925,"text":"那本次的提案涉及到衛廣法整體的監理本會尊重貴委員會的意見但是就修法而言 建請充分考量各項主客觀因素以及獲至最佳的處理方案 敬請各位委員參採 謝謝謝謝好"},{"start":4023.973,"end":4046.143,"text":"那其餘機關間所送的書面報告間列入記錄刊登公報接下來開始進行詢答先宣告以下事項一詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘二委員發言登記於10點30分前截止三各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以議事人員來彙整"},{"start":4048.685,"end":4076.148,"text":"4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘首先我們先請第一位登記委員林國成委員發言好謝謝我們召委請我們陳代主委陳主委請委員早"},{"start":4077.267,"end":4103.449,"text":"好 陳代主委來第一個很冒昧的請教一下NCC委員被本院夥結之後現在有沒有在徵詢有沒有準備還要再提出來因為四個才可以開會現在只有三個陳代主委以你了解行政院有沒有開始在作業有沒有"},{"start":4104.211,"end":4121.559,"text":"跟委員報告 這一部分我這邊是毫無所惜 也沒有聽說還沒有齁 這個我要特別跟卓院長講我們現在在第一次 又再提醒被吼劫之後 請行政院院長"},{"start":4123.415,"end":4142.79,"text":"盡快的把NCC委員盡快補足不要到最後又說我們立法院不審所以我要呼籲我們卓院長你如果聽到那請盡快再提出來NCC你們不是說三個不能運作嗎"},{"start":4143.971,"end":4162.828,"text":"所以盡快提出來這個我要特別呼籲當然這個你也是幕僚單位啦這個也是行政院主要所以特別有機會我還是建請我們陳代主委提醒卓院長一下好不好好來接下來我這個下一張接下來"},{"start":4169.281,"end":4193.669,"text":"台灣媒體正面臨非常嚴峻的考驗也就是2025全球的新聞自由指標由吳國介 記者組織聯盟發布台灣新聞自由面臨到政治兩極化"},{"start":4194.867,"end":4216.534,"text":"所謂的政治兩極化就是綠的就是綠台藍的就是藍台中立應該是新聞自由的中立根本不曉得在哪邊所以陳太子委你為什麼去發現到很多我們立法院的同仁在修"},{"start":4217.874,"end":4237.78,"text":"衛星廣播電視滑為什麼就是有很多不滿的地方新聞自由完完全全他的自由蕩然之無存所以陳代主委你有看到這個政治兩極化的這個問題你有沒有看到"},{"start":4239.248,"end":4253.9,"text":"這個是在社會第三人觀察或者非政府機構的觀察其實這應該是不陌生啦有沒有看到這則報導啦有所以就是要鼓勵你的同仁嘛"},{"start":4255.556,"end":4278.564,"text":"這無風不起浪國際組織都這樣認定那當然我們要悉心檢討嘛這個該改進的要改進嘛那如果沒有我們就把它當成免資嘛所以我還是呼籲啊陳代主委你在代理這段時間基本上我對於你公正兩制啊是算及格"},{"start":4279.304,"end":4304.124,"text":"但是沒有達到真正獨立單位一個行使之前的主委這個立場所以最起碼你是及格的比以前的主委那是好多但是我還是希望再接再厲做到一個真正獨立單位的代主委的一個職責這個我特別要勉勵來 接下來這一張啊"},{"start":4307.72,"end":4334.961,"text":"陳太主委你再看一下也就是世界國際組織裡面NCC應要有作為這裡面也就是台灣最不被信用的媒體前三名第一三立電視台第二民視電視台第三自由時報主委你看完這個你有什麼感覺"},{"start":4337.904,"end":4359.875,"text":"我們提倡就是我們大家都擁護新聞自由大家都遵從這個普世價值那一般都是可以認可的立場是新聞媒體可以有立場但是不能違法不能也要有是非那這邊如果說它的信任度涉及到事實查證的違法部分我們都會依法來處理"},{"start":4360.68,"end":4378.224,"text":"沒有啦 這個沒有事實查證啦這個人家是一個公正單位國際組織裡面他們對我們的一個警示啦當然沒有鞭策作用但是提高給我們監督單位去做一個國際對我們感覺的這個部分"},{"start":4381.385,"end":4403.499,"text":"要特別特別要去注意這個事所以主委當然因為我提出這兩個一個就是政治兩極化一個就是國際指資對於我們新聞媒體的自由完全淡然無存沒有信心這個部分所以我要拜託主委這兩個都是國際性質的"},{"start":4405.58,"end":4428.467,"text":"都沒有政治意味的他們所觀察到的東西所以希望主委你在這個部分我希望勉勵我們各NCC所有的同仁那一定要秉持這些朝著這個公正公開透明的方向尤其本黨所提出來三大主軸啊"},{"start":4429.487,"end":4447.809,"text":"這個三大主軸就很簡單啊我們在乎的就是財務公開透明的部分那我也知道電視台顧慮的是什麼可是你最起碼任何事情公開公平去做監督我相信"},{"start":4448.63,"end":4469.739,"text":"沒有人會對你有所質疑啦所以我希望陳代主委這個部分要特別特別去把它當成是一個鼓勵跟參佐領導的一個風格所以這兩個主持謝謝委員好不好 來接下來那金管會有人來嗎金管會來這個金管會來"},{"start":4484.798,"end":4502.394,"text":"我要談的就是現在我們這個一萬塊錢花出來這是政府之美意 民意代表所爭取可是最起碼的話金管會不曉得有沒有留意到現在金融業裡面釣魚簡幸滿天輝"},{"start":4507.038,"end":4520.005,"text":"這陳太主委跟這個金管會的代表你們對於這件事情本席提出來你們現在有什麼防備之道可以告訴我們本縣嗎"},{"start":4522.308,"end":4550.948,"text":"來 諸位先來好 各位報告針對簡訊設置案的部分分為兩大區塊一個是商業簡訊一個是個人簡訊商業簡訊目前有處理機制只要裡頭有網頁的連結或者電話號碼那除非是經過有白名單的過濾處理要不然都是通通都禁止發送那個人的簡訊的部分那目前由於是電信管理法有那個通訊秘密不能夠業者不能看他內容但是我們從行為上來看假設他一天"},{"start":4551.788,"end":4576.054,"text":"發射的發送的則數超過一定程度我們請業者要叫他回來做KYC這一塊那目前就通報部分其實大概從去年以來那1萬塊這個案子之前大概其實釣魚檢訊的案子相對165通報部分是相對沒有這個要特別注意一下啦這個非常嚴重那我希望金管會"},{"start":4577.074,"end":4602.988,"text":"也要配合NCC也好 數位部也好因為打詐現在全世界認為台灣最好騙的一個王狗所以我在想當然金管會主管這些NCC的業務是涵蓋這個部分當然打詐不是只有金管會的事也不是只有NCC的事那最起碼要跨部會"},{"start":4603.948,"end":4631.454,"text":"所以我還是希望我們現在真的要停止各自為政要跨部會要接軌合作這樣的話才會達到真正我們NCC有權利該斷的就要斷該防備的就要防備但是金管會該對金融機構為什麼我要提出來是金融機構是很嚴重"},{"start":4633.806,"end":4653.057,"text":"不管是公營的或民營的銀行那個簡信他們的簡信資料是從哪邊來呢到底是電信公司賣出去或者我們那個銀行去把它洩漏出去這是一個非常嚴重的問題耶主委還有金管會"},{"start":4654.281,"end":4669.073,"text":"我們會持續努力其實在行政院有打詐指揮中心統合的這個內政部NCC 抒發部 金管會跟法國部做這個阻詐 堵詐 防詐懲詐的一些相關的工作我們都其實都有常常密集的開會來處理好 來金管會"},{"start":4672.782,"end":4689.562,"text":"不要請你上來都不講話來我想金融業的那個打詐的部分原則上我們都是配合那個行政院我知道你配合啦但是問題非常嚴重我現在在疑問的就是說這些簡信到底是你們資料漏出去或者"},{"start":4691.384,"end":4704.91,"text":"對老人家存了兩萬 存了三萬領了一萬 兩萬你們問得好像非常緊密嚴謹但是為什麼會有這種情形所以我還是要拜託跨部會"},{"start":4706.37,"end":4727.907,"text":"這些聯繫非常重要 不要各自為政所以這個部分金融業的掉以減性非常嚴重希望金管會還有我們陳代主委要把這個事情當成是一回事專案的下去了解一下 好不好好 沒有問題 我們會持續跟好 謝謝兩位好 謝謝林國臣委員 來 代理主委請回"},{"start":4733.277,"end":4757.788,"text":"接下來再請第二位黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝主席主席我們一樣請NCC代理主委陳主委陳代理主委請委員早"},{"start":4758.467,"end":4782.308,"text":"主委早 主委我想過去這個這一週這個週末在網路上最紅的議題當然就是我們政府把這個小紅書要把它關掉那當然理由是因為依據打詐條例的第42條認為說這個如果是為了處理詐欺犯罪防止民眾接觸到詐欺網站的時候大家當然是認為警察機關跟主管機關可以來限制相關的存取"},{"start":4783.129,"end":4806.189,"text":"那當然NCC到底是不是主管機關先講這個事情你是網際網路主管機關之一嗎就這個案子的部分目前並不是是由其他機關來主政NCC是協力其他地方主政當然是司法警察機關主政那我說針對網際網路的部分到底NCC有沒有表示意見的權利你們是不是主管機關"},{"start":4806.98,"end":4813.147,"text":"我們有一起開會但是處理這兩天媒體報導那部分是其他機關在主政"},{"start":4813.966,"end":4839.359,"text":"主委因為這個NCC過去有召開所謂的網路政策公聽會換句話說網路政策可能在未來在你們的設定裡面你們應該是要管理整個網路政策平台那過去你們也提到說這個針對的內容這個網路內容不能只有移除作為處置作為應該還有其他的做法來補強除了移除之外的事情應該由NCC來做那今天我想要提這個今天如果"},{"start":4840.299,"end":4850.69,"text":"今天這個小紅書這個平台我們當初設立這個法的目的是說打詐欺的網站比如說這個網站它本來就是釣魚網站它本來就是真正用來詐騙的網站"},{"start":4852.409,"end":4874.029,"text":"所以把它禁掉但今天是這個平台裡面的內容有內容是這個但是你把整個平台封掉了我不知道主委對這件事情的看法怎麼樣作為網路網際網路的主管機關你會你認同這樣做嗎未來是不是只要平台上有平台裡面的眾多內容裡面只要涉及詐騙我們就要把這個平台把它封起來"},{"start":4874.609,"end":4900.272,"text":"跟委員報告分兩個部分通案的部分我們認為網際網路其實全世界都一樣我們認為是目前有作用法的是相對就算是歐盟DSA它其實也是授權各會員國去個別立法其實過去五六年以來其實我們在過往109 110年做一些訴訟法的一些處理但是後來全世界都一樣其實都比較傾向於分散式立法特別是德國"},{"start":4900.973,"end":4927.48,"text":"那這一塊在臺灣其實也做了相當的實踐很多在農委會 衛福部相關的兒少保護那些他們都在他們的作用法裡頭已經立法了好 第二部分回到這個個案的部分那我們開會其實我們接觸到的資訊大致是這樣子的這個案官的這個APP它其實涉及到資安的部分還有這個當然是這個前兩天報紙披露的有涉及到一些"},{"start":4929.46,"end":4957.132,"text":"打詐的一些潛伏在裡頭那其實就是資安加上涉詐這一塊是目前這個個案比較多拿出來說這個它過程的一些要錢這個主委你講的部分當然官方的新聞稿都提到了但是我們要舉個反例啦或是說成功雖然是反例但是也成功阻止過過去前段時間我們大家談了N號房的時候它這個相關的犯罪相關的這些會員都在所謂Telegram上面在TG上面但是你是把這個"},{"start":4958.453,"end":4987.773,"text":"平台你不是把整個Telegram封掉嘛你是針對有參與到N號房的這一個社群在這個平台裡面的某個社群他因為涉及違法涉及兒少法等等的問題涉及資安涉及個資涉及詐騙所以把這個平台裡面的這個帳號封掉但是我先講說今天小紅書是這個平台裡面有很多其他內容裡面其中有一些內容是涉及詐騙但是你們現在做法是直接把整個平台封掉你不覺得這樣違反比例原則嗎"},{"start":4989.935,"end":5009.574,"text":"這一部分其實在像剛剛委員提到過往的這個鳳林網等等我們確實說確實了解到說這個對它一個網域域名其實它是跟網域裡頭下頭有很多相對應的網頁其實也有網頁其實不能這樣子因為會錯殺無辜會比例原則問題那這一塊確實是有在考慮"},{"start":5010.034,"end":5032.612,"text":"考量但是小紅書這一塊他本身是因為他他本身在在中國大陸那邊本身對方有一個法律有個包容條款說他們的政府有需要說那他們的這個業者必須要提供相關資訊這是最大的治安的一個潛伏的讓他擔心的地方那這一塊其實是小紅書最大被人詬病的一些"},{"start":5033.55,"end":5042.861,"text":"的關鍵因素所在那當然他有另外涉炸的部分那當然是兩個加在一起那相關主管機關做一些處理我們都予以尊重"},{"start":5044.083,"end":5064.892,"text":"這個我要提醒NCC啦因為你們現在如果用把打詐條例視為這個霸王 等於是帝王條款用744條只要涉及詐騙你們都能夠把他這個整個網路把它封掉那我覺得可能會涉及到言論審查那這一塊NCC倒是沒有處理這一塊個案的部分目前不在NCC來處理那我們其實跟委員報告都是"},{"start":5066.153,"end":5085.293,"text":"网际网路其实也是三律共管我们都是优先请业者来做好自律那业者至于做不到做不好会有民众来申诉检举那第三方主委没关系这个东西我知道但是我刚刚讲的案例就是像Telegram他们在台湾也没有公司他们基本上你找不到负责人的"},{"start":5085.894,"end":5101.044,"text":"但是大家手機裡面很多還是繼續使用這個平台因為我們今天針對犯罪的部分我把它封禁掉大家不會有意見今天問題是說今天好像擴張解釋的是因為平台裡面有人犯罪所以你把平台封掉那照這個邏輯來講你把Google也封掉好了"},{"start":5101.624,"end":5129.652,"text":"因為很多的網很多的犯罪或是Facebook或是Meta或者是整個這個稅上面有很多的所謂部分的人犯罪但是你今天擴張解釋因為打炸條例你擴張解釋變成平台裡面有人犯罪懲處的不是那個人而已是整個平台的所有人都被封掉所以我覺得這部分我覺得NCC應該要有所謂的責任你們在內部會議裡面應該提出來你們的見解網際網路跟實體是兩件不同的事情處理方式應該是不一樣的"},{"start":5131.692,"end":5156.233,"text":"確實 我很講到重點那其實比較大的BITTECH相關的平台它其實在台灣都有一些相關的窗口也有法律代表那我們現在講的這個個案部分其實是相對跟他們是比較不一樣的所以這邊也是他們跟大平台所推的APP的一些差異所以我還是要提一下你剛剛講的大平台包含說之前數位部公告那幾個他們都有代理人但是我剛剛比如提到的"},{"start":5156.994,"end":5177.102,"text":"犯罪溫床最多使用的就是Telegram不管是洗洗錢這個比特幣還是各種這種虛擬貨幣的交易或者是各項奇怪的交易在Telegram平台上面非常多大家有時候警方也要辦但是你要封的時候是針對這個平台裡面的某個頻道把它封掉但是你不會把整個平台把它禁掉"},{"start":5177.782,"end":5201.586,"text":"我們並沒有 台灣的網域並沒有把Color Grande這網域鎖掉沒有把這個APP把它鎖掉是因為所以今天小紅書也是對我來講也是類似的概念今天小紅書裡面確實一定各種大型網路平台一定都會有人做一些違法的事情但是有人做違法的事情應該是針對這個當事人這個行為本身而不是把整個平台來把它禁掉我要提醒主委說你不能擴張解釋成這樣子 主委"},{"start":5202.308,"end":5229.035,"text":"對那我完全理解委員的意見確實就是在撇開資安這一塊比例的比例比例原則問題其實是一個重點但是暗關的這個這個這個通訊軟體他本身是有重大的資安那以現在資安就是國安的角度來看那相對的他這邊的他特點完全迥異於其他這個大大的平台的所提供的APP"},{"start":5229.744,"end":5258.944,"text":"那你們到底封小黃書是依據打詐條例還是依據治安我就覺得現在很亂了因為你們這個新聞稿出來這一整個週末各單位有各單位不同的說法一下說是詐騙主委現在又說是治安現在到底是依據哪一條因為這個尊重主管機關內政部跟出發部的一些處置的那這邊因為內政部已經發新聞稿那我們是是協同機關如果未來後續有NCC要協力的話我們會協力這邊我們當然是尊重主管機關的"},{"start":5260.584,"end":5283.111,"text":"主政的一些事項所以這個為什麼大家會常常覺得NCC有時候有跟沒有一樣這個案例我也不是要針對你但是今天大家覺得NCC你既然作為網際網路主管機關內政部他們當然負責治安負責打詐這個沒問題但是你們的專業意見你們對於網際網路這個東西這個概念是什麼我覺得你們應該提供專業意見給內政部"},{"start":5284.952,"end":5313.231,"text":"網際網路行政院的分工原則是說他對應實體由各目的事業主管機關來負責那小紅書本身也有廣告那廣告不提涉及到這個經濟數位經濟部分那不是由速發部來處理那裡就他涉詐涉詐部分當然就是內政部來主政那NCC的部分其實目前比較多的是兒少的相關的一些處理那基本上就是說他還是分散式立法的對應的各主管"},{"start":5314.451,"end":5337.348,"text":"對應各個分散式立法的目的世界中來統籌處理這樣治安的話當然都是書發部以上好 主委一個時間到了我最後要再講一下你們這個網信網路傳播政策的這個白皮書已經出審了那到底什麼時候會有一個比較完整的方向讓大家有一個依循的這個做法因為對我們來講今天會有這個這件事情發生有可能是因為我們所謂的網信網路"},{"start":5338.028,"end":5351.676,"text":"的這個相關的政策並沒有很明確的去定義他的這個角色跟定義他的這個分散是怎麼管理就像我們剛剛不斷在強調一件事情當初我們在歷史十二條的時候我們是針對立法的意旨應該是針對詐騙的網站"},{"start":5354.264,"end":5382.447,"text":"但是你們今天在執行的時候是把它擴張解釋的就是只要涉及的所以我覺得這是一個很大的問題就大家覺得說你們變成利用這個42條在做言論審查或是看人不開心的找個理由把它關掉大家感受就是這樣為什麼這個反彈大家網路上使用者的反彈會這麼大你今天把一些詐騙的網站把它關掉過去關了很多沒有人有意見你們的績效表現大家都說你們在做事情數位部也好NC也好"},{"start":5382.927,"end":5402.316,"text":"你們把過去的一些涉及詐騙的釣魚網站也好或者是金融網站也好把它關掉沒有人反彈大家都支持但今天大家反彈是因為你不是只有把所謂涉詐的平台裡面的這個帳號把它封掉你是把整個平台禁止使用問題在這邊所以我要拜託跟主委再講一下這事情你們第一個整個網路"},{"start":5402.896,"end":5427.727,"text":"我國的網路平台政策你們既然開了公聽會議要去做相關的規範那趕快提出來因為我想網路已經發展到今天這樣子各種新的平台已經出現我們那白皮書其實已經整理到差不多後續因為這屬於重大政策要經過委員會議來討論目前NCC沒有委員會議就比較沒有辦法進行最後十公尺的一些討論處理那就你們行政院趕快提名單提好的名單出來我們在那省好不好 主委謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5431.121,"end":5449.739,"text":"好 感謝黃建豪委員感謝戴主委來 接下來我們先確認一下議事錄請黃建豪委員稍等一下請教各位委員對上次會議議事錄有沒有意見沒有意見 議事錄確定謝謝 接下來再請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":5460.813,"end":5483.841,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請代理主委來 陳代理主委請委員長主委好所以剛針對那個黃委員問的我再補充問一下Meta GoogleTikTok 他們在台灣有沒有設法律代表"},{"start":5485.057,"end":5511.418,"text":"TikTok之外其他我確定有TikTok應該是有來在接洽處理TikTok也有TikTok目前未來也是美國公司嘛那小紅書有沒有設法律代表我的了解部分是沒有是的差別在這裡你自己當主委你自己要去搞清楚有我剛剛有跟黃委員報告那比如說政府有公文"},{"start":5513.11,"end":5541.327,"text":"就是有狀況給Meta Google TikTok他們公文有回應小紅書政府給他公文有沒有回應應該是已讀不回吧是的 已讀不回那詐騙受理案件Meta Google TikTok都有設窗口小紅書有沒有設窗口應該沒有好 那答案不是很清楚了吧"},{"start":5543.198,"end":5572.162,"text":"我希望說你們自己回答要具體就是說到底為什麼他會跟Meta會跟Google會跟TikTok不一樣至少他在台灣有法律代表我們要聯繫有窗口政府要聯繫有回應小紅素是這三個通通沒有那為什麼他會比較特別因為他自己做法就很特別跟其他的這些都不一樣"},{"start":5574.349,"end":5601.306,"text":"所以答案就很清楚我希望說主委你自己也要搞得很清楚回答要很清楚很具體所以這個其實也很不好管我們知道NCC很辛苦那個廣播電台是廣播電視法管對不對是那有線電視有廣有廣法有有線電視法那MOD"},{"start":5603.875,"end":5619.187,"text":"目前是用過往管理規則來管那包括衛星廣播嘛 對不對對 衛廣法目前很多的衛星頻道是衛廣法來對 所以這個都很具體嘛好 那我再請教一下 那是個平面媒體"},{"start":5620.506,"end":5648.8,"text":"平面媒體目前應該是文化部為主那文化部當然它管理的力道大概跟過往又稍微有不一樣因為那個出版法或者那個大概也已經廢除就是說它內容內容誰管內容紙媒嗎紙媒部分大部分而言還是文化部文化部那網路媒體呢"},{"start":5650.171,"end":5676.105,"text":"網路媒體現在的標準答案說法應該是看它的性質由各相關機關來管相關機關對 就假設它內容涉及到衛福部的相關這個耳哨 保護那就是由衛福部衛福部相關的作用法其實都已經訂了所以我剛剛跟報告說所以它內容有問題都是相關機關事業目的事業主管機關自己要管理"},{"start":5676.665,"end":5701.342,"text":"分散是立法然後分散是分到各相關部會來統則處理所以最後其實有爭議大部分都是去法院處理對不對有些是這樣子沒錯你網路媒體有登記公司那基本上好像是歸經濟部管那經濟部管是你這個公司有沒有問題對你公司運作的內容經濟部也沒管那麼多對不對"},{"start":5702.33,"end":5727.922,"text":"對 他負責登記而已大部分 對不對所以呢 這個都是屬於傳播嘛我們NCC的全名叫什麼通訊傳播委員會傳播嘛 對不對但是很多網路上的平台不見得是傳播有時它是UGC就是使用者生成的內容那一塊甚至是廣告那這邊就比較不是NCC的範疇"},{"start":5729.384,"end":5753.903,"text":"對啦 那我現在就是告訴你嘛平面媒體它有傳播的功能嘛 對不對對網路媒體當然你說的各自它內部自己的製作自己的內容啦等等的這個都個人的事情嘛但是現在網路媒體的傳播效能大不大大大 對不對所以以邏輯來講有關係到傳播的"},{"start":5757.182,"end":5776.344,"text":"我們叫做通訊傳播委員會嘛對不對但是這一塊因為行政院已經立定是分工所以變成行為管制如果他的雖然是自媒體雖然是UGC他的內容涉及到侵權涉及到智慧財產侵權其實就有相關對應的比方說智慧局會沒關係那我就針對傳播的部分嘛"},{"start":5777.318,"end":5789.295,"text":"因為它很複雜所以會牽涉到很多不同的單位這個我們都可以理解但是我們從邏輯來做思考就是說它有關於傳播的部分那應該是誰來管"},{"start":5790.58,"end":5814.4,"text":"那NCC負責在源頭端都是主要是該內那一塊那我目前網傳辦其實有處理這一塊我們希望能夠保障言論自由維護使用者權益那所以我們也是有做一些相關軟法目前雖然沒有委員會我們做一些軟法的一些訂定比方說我們過往剛剛很多部會都在分散立法我們就訂定一個立法的指引給相關部會參考"},{"start":5815.481,"end":5843.792,"text":"那另外民眾最多詬病是說很多是他跟平台間的一些互動申訴的部分我們也訂定這個申訴的質疑那當然網際網路上是主要是各方在互相互動的所以是多方利害關係人這部分要怎麼處理怎麼來互動我們也訂定利害關係人的質疑這些都是我們目前在處理的所以但是他表現在行為端他違法或怎麼樣其實都是回歸各相關目的世界專案機關來處理這違法通通到法院嘛"},{"start":5845.103,"end":5867.484,"text":"不知道 要跟民國幾年了有些是行政法行政機關都可以處理好 那我現在就是說我們從我們還是處理事情要有邏輯然後要有具體這樣子才會有效是所以我們來做一個簡單的邏輯思考那是不是說我們看到上個月"},{"start":5869.665,"end":5888.184,"text":"自律其實網路新聞其實他們也有成立自律聯盟這個算是蠻好的我們應該給他們掌聲那他們其實自己都願意自律去提高新聞品質跟公信力但是只有自律恐怕有一些人他就不自律嘛"},{"start":5890.28,"end":5908.449,"text":"對 所以我們是三律共管 自律 套律 法律對 所以我覺得法律還是有這個必要對 那比方說前一陣子某些個案在公共場所某些影片如果在網路上來發散他其實一樣是涉及到刑法的一些部分處理"},{"start":5908.871,"end":5929.062,"text":"所以我就說老師到法院太慢了可以行政處理可以優先速度比較快所以我們有廣播電視法有線廣播電視法跟衛星廣播電視法我們平面媒體網路媒體有沒有可能有一個NCC來制定一個相關的法規"},{"start":5931.945,"end":5948.425,"text":"針對傳播的部分因為他很複雜我知道那很複雜的部分我們實在是沒有辦法就是他蓋不同的目的失業主管機關有不同的觸犯不同的法律那個就是由各自法各自去相關的法律去管理"},{"start":5949.546,"end":5975.834,"text":"但是如果針對傳播的部分NCC可不可以有一個肩膀跟有一個法律把它制定一個相關的法規來處理我們剛剛跟委員報告說網際網路上的媒體這一塊其實也是三律共管在自律的部分現在九月份已經成立一個我知道我們有誇獎他們那目前"},{"start":5977.534,"end":5997.432,"text":"還沒有問事之前我們其實有訂定軟法剛剛我們總共要訂了五個的指引那未來如果時機成熟的話其實訂定相關的一些法律其實都是有可能的雖然我們110年110年這個數位中介法曾經提出過一次但是但是社會各界有所議論也沒有共識所以才會"},{"start":5998.553,"end":6025.835,"text":"維持現況剛好這幾年從110年到現在也剛好國際上的潮流其實也很多就是這個分散式立法特別是德國所以有沒有NCC已經有這個打算已經在做了那就是針對平面媒體平面媒體部分沒有平面媒體沒有就是網際網路上的你們先針對網際網路對好 那網際網路現在已經有在做了大概什麼時候可能會有結果"},{"start":6027.087,"end":6040.276,"text":"我們五個指引其實有些到年底都會有一兩個指引都可以出來那其他的可能明年會出來總共五個指引大概應該是有兩個今年到明年應該都可以年底現在已經12月了 來"},{"start":6041.989,"end":6068.036,"text":"我確定是有兩個指引其實已經可以這個月底已經不是年底了是這個月底對有兩個是可以出來沒問題有兩個可以出來對指引軟法那明年的其他三個什麼時候有些明年可以出來明年底以前剩下三個都可以出來明年底那還要一年"},{"start":6068.943,"end":6093.253,"text":"但我們會加快啦我是覺得就是今天很具體的建議啦反正跟傳播有關的我們又是傳播委員會嘛所以這個部分真的是必須有一個規則出來啦只是靠自律是真的不夠所以這個必須要有肩膀有擔當這個就必須讓NCC來承擔這樣OK嗎"},{"start":6094.653,"end":6117.604,"text":"網際網路部分我們已經在做了OK好沒問題那我們先看年底月底這兩個你就先公布出來然後明年的也先給我們預告一下讓我們大家民眾可以有所依詢也知道到底NCC要怎麼做這樣好不好好沒問題OK好那我們就等你的結果好OK謝謝"},{"start":6120.558,"end":6147.944,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑委員諮詢好 謝謝戴主委宣告一下剛剛在那個官員備詢台有撿到這一張悠遊卡看是哪一位官員調的再來前面來領取好 那接下來我們請洪孟愷召委諮詢"},{"start":6156.53,"end":6167.23,"text":"好謝謝我們請陳代理主委好請陳代理主委教委好好代理主委好代理主委我想"},{"start":6168.817,"end":6197.412,"text":"今天很負責任要來排審這個衛星廣播電視法就是希望我們能夠在委員會裡面好好的來針對每一個委員提出來的一個條文來做一個討論那更重要的是相關的爭議其實我們都要做一個釐清所以說這是本席在這個禮拜我排了這個懸答那我們就會在近期內我們再排主條審查就是希望說能夠來依主條但是捍衛新聞自由我想"},{"start":6198.868,"end":6215.351,"text":"我們應該都要站在同一條線因為民主法治言論自由新聞自由都非常的重要這一點是我希望我們不分朝野大家共同來捍衛今天NCC的報告特別有講到說新聞自由它其實是一個制度性的保障"},{"start":6216.411,"end":6236.526,"text":"但是本席更要講所謂制度性的保障你也不能無限上綱制度性的保障是新聞自由裡面所新聞自由是屬於制度性保障但是政府能夠在一定的範圍裡面管理跟規範媒體可是不得從根本上破壞媒體制度的存在或是多元性"},{"start":6237.347,"end":6250.134,"text":"我覺得這一點是剛剛好幾位委員他在提案說明的時候有提到如果說當一個電視台或是說一個新聞台他真的已經逾越了相關的規範的時候或是甚至法令的時候該處罰要處罰你該罰"},{"start":6254.332,"end":6272.561,"text":"多少的罰款還是多少的這個部分要處罰但絕對不是說從根本上面來破壞媒體制度讓他直接言論消失我想主委你應該可以很理解即便是大家在這個場域上有很多不同的意見或說我講的話也不一定可以重聽不一定能夠接受"},{"start":6273.101,"end":6301.804,"text":"如果说撇开我们是立法委员或是说代理主委的一个身份今天任何人在一个社会里面我讲了什么样不中听的话只要我没有迂返法令我没有污蔑甚至我没有做这个人这个相关的这个言语羞辱的话其实那就是意见表达那你能够说因为我不喜欢你的意见所以我要求你闭嘴或说甚至我就直接把你的喉咙给封起来胶布给贴起来不让你发声吗"},{"start":6304.091,"end":6325.989,"text":"謝謝委員理解委員的說法跟看法那確實言論自由其實普世的價值大家都在擁護這個自由那但是現在現行的一些法令規範如果說他觸及到這個必須要他自己要承擔的部分那依法行政的機關其實也必須要依法來行政處理"},{"start":6326.42,"end":6353.03,"text":"所以依法行政我想過去司法訴訟已經有看到了不管是中天新聞台或說相關的一個部分其實我們真的不需要因為政黨立場而有雙重標準所以我想請教因為現在有委員有提出相關的版本裡面有所謂如果說將來真的三讀通過的話中天新聞台可以在行政訴訟之前就恢復原本的台來復台"},{"start":6354.19,"end":6379.057,"text":"那我想請教NCC會尊重立法院的決議並且讓後續的程序繼續進行嗎各位報告那在立法修正通過前我們的表達意見就如今天的報告那如果立法通過的話行政機關都是依法行政我們當然會依照通過的法律來處理好行政機關會依照通過法律來處理我要提醒喔"},{"start":6379.597,"end":6407.619,"text":"因為現在行政院把很多立法院通過的法案即便是三省通過的法案三讀通過法案行政院可以置之不理包括軍人加薪行政院可以置之不理甚至還讀書一格創制一個民主國家沒有看過的說要先釋憲 釋憲通過之後才來處理才來回徵過去的這個薪水那剛剛代理主委已經講了"},{"start":6408.76,"end":6422.101,"text":"你不會採取釋憲的方式嘛只要立法院三讀通過的法案你就應該依法處理就依法處理因為你們是獨立自主的機關不受任何上面長官的壓力 對吧"},{"start":6422.965,"end":6443.389,"text":"公文報告一般的情況那當然是依法處理那依法行政依法處理但是如果法律上目前的法規架構如果賦予相關單位他有法令相關的一些救濟程序我相信他進行這個程序也是依法行政大概是我的看法是這樣子"},{"start":6443.689,"end":6466.898,"text":"戴主委 是你兩分鐘前跟兩分鐘後的態度完全不一樣沒有 是說一般情況之下我們當然會依法行政那我們是二級機關二級獨立機關正常情況之下就是因為你是獨立機關所以說本席才今天特別來質詢你也並且讓你好好的說明有沒有那個風骨有沒有那個專業有沒有那個獨立性而不是看上面辦事嘛"},{"start":6467.538,"end":6477.154,"text":"其實我覺得最遺憾的地方就是過去到現在為什麼NCD讓人家沒有辦法接受或是說NCD讓國人普遍信賴不夠就是因為每一次都覺得是說你們就有上面的壓力"},{"start":6478.466,"end":6506.396,"text":"就如同剛剛本席其實剛剛林國成委員林國成召委在質詢的時候他一開始開宗明義問說那現在委員徵詢的狀況怎麼樣你也不清楚因為權責不在是 權責不在你也因此像這樣子的一個委員的一個部分我們會在總質詢的時候詢問行政院長但是本席要求你的是當你要依法行政的時候就應該依法行政你過去 你剛剛講的那部分就是"},{"start":6507.176,"end":6527.89,"text":"行政 獨立行政機關的一個態度問題對 我剛剛跟趙偉報告就是說如果這個法律 這個衛管法修正通過那相關假設他最終定案下來我們當然是依法執行這個法律好 依法執行 來那個代理主委 那請教一下最近我們本期也看到另外一個新聞我不知道您應該也有看到"},{"start":6528.931,"end":6547.145,"text":"前總統陳水扁那也是現在在服刑的受刑人雖然他現在保外就醫但是他是在服刑當中還有兩個案件還沒有審理但居然我們看到有一個獨家新聞是他明年要在新聞台裡面主持節目"},{"start":6548.807,"end":6577.586,"text":"這個有看到就報導但是跟委員報告來 兩個部分第一 這個新聞台它可以有主持政論節目嗎當初在設定的時候這個新聞台有允許或者說它自己有承諾說它不主持它沒有要開設政論節目現況它是不能開政論節目好 所以它沒有辦法開政論節目那第二 受刑人能夠上新聞台它的當初有所謂的四部條款現在當然已經蕩然無存了"},{"start":6578.263,"end":6594.364,"text":"在我們偉大民進黨政府主政之下我們司法好像是就是可以雙重標準到無遠弗屆的地步讓獸行人趴趴走除了專訪以外他甚至他可以直接主持節目網路上的他主持節目我不知道戴主委有沒有看過"},{"start":6595.839,"end":6619.816,"text":"有稍微看過你也看過所以我們的高官都知道說我們受刑人有在主持節目結果就只有我們的中間就只有我們的法務部就只有我們的執法單位完全把眼睛遮起來好那我現在具體請教如果說明年新聞台他直接邀請這個受刑人上他的頻道來主持節目NCC要怎麼處理"},{"start":6620.421,"end":6640.974,"text":"好 兩個部分回答第一個部分那報導所指涉的那個電視台目前它官網也沒有披露什麼相關這個消息那我們會持續來關注來注意這個處理那剛剛 照我提到前半部部分那是法務部的權責我們這邊就要予以尊重那個前半部"},{"start":6641.533,"end":6665.847,"text":"就是說他是受刑人身分然後啪啪走這一塊然後這一塊媒體管理不是NCC的責任嗎我說兩部分嘛媒體管理這一塊相關的電視台他目前是不能開政論節目不能開政論節目那他能不能請受刑人如果說他今天他把它變成是談話性節目他故意拐一個橋門不是政論節目我只有請一個來賓一對一對談"},{"start":6668.348,"end":6693.397,"text":"他能不能主持這個如果他主持的不是政論性節目那當然就不涉及他能主持嗎受刑人可以在我們現在新聞台裡面然後直接上新聞台來主持節目然後我們NCC完全完全放任我們回答兩個部分是在那個電視台目前是不能開政論節目的沒有政論節目嘛對你已經開中民營講了這本來也是當初那個新聞台設定的一個要旨嘛好"},{"start":6693.857,"end":6708.058,"text":"那沒有政論節目但我現在是說他有沒有開巧門 有啊我們也看到他現在不是政論節目但他就找一個來賓一對一對談啊讓那個來賓 那個來賓也是政治人物也是政論節目的常客但是他就讓他一對一對談啊"},{"start":6710.04,"end":6731.196,"text":"那這樣子算什麼 算談話性節目只是談話內容是正論可以這樣子取巧嗎我們會在程序上來找相關專家學者來處理還要找專家學者來處理 來主委 知不知道這一個新聞台它現在有這樣子的一個取巧知道"},{"start":6734.006,"end":6755.661,"text":"我們的NCC偉大的獨立機關NCC知道人家在這邊做這個取巧但是不講不罰沒有 但是我們已經在處理了來 做了什麼處理我們發函請他陳述意見然後我們內部也有其他人家開這個節目開多久了那你們現在發函蝸牛在爬他先前的大選進來講我們已經已經處罰警告了"},{"start":6759.02,"end":6786.398,"text":"處罰警告對 先前的那這是有開罰嗎警告就是一種處罰警告就是一種處罰對那在評鑑換上所以你敢講本席不太敢聽說實在話對於不同的標準所以說我們上一段質詢本席才在講你的制度性保障新聞自由你可以對一家電視台直接到時候用關台的方式"},{"start":6787.811,"end":6799.067,"text":"讓他可以直接死無葬身之地關起他的喉嚨關起他的嘴巴讓他不能再發聲現在對另外一家新聞台他明明就已經違反了當初他設定時候"},{"start":6800.643,"end":6825.171,"text":"的條件不能政論節目 結果我們NCC知道他沒有開政論節目 大家開一個談話性節目 大家討論政論我沒有在處理 找來賓來聊那個來賓就是政論節目的常客然後結果我們NCC知道但是我們不處理或是我們到最後講說警告就是一種處理不是 現在的我們不是不處理 已經在處理當中那如果最後認定上說要罰 我們都會依法行政來該罰就罰"},{"start":6828.464,"end":6854.705,"text":"主委 是本席最後自己想請教如果最後他的受刑人真的在這個新聞台裡面開節目NCC怎麼做就是我們會提都是用內部的程序來認定說他這樣子有沒有構成說他就是那個震動性節目如果是的話我們當然會 他會來罰所以我們NCC可以那麼消極那他就是沒有 我已經在處理了現在他已經是 他開獨家耶"},{"start":6857.508,"end":6879.582,"text":"這是對公權力的挑戰吧我今天不管藍綠黨派如果說今天有任何一個受刑人第一他可以在中華民國法令保障之下保外就醫然後啪啪走手也不抖了說話邏輯思考非常的完整然後結果他要關十年二十年就完全不用審完全不用看他今天不是被特赦"},{"start":6880.342,"end":6895.917,"text":"跟周圍報告結果他今天趴趴走之後然後就直接預告還發獨家我覺得今天我們說不定這樣子持續完畢之後還幫他衝點閱率還幫他抽收視率然後結果如果說他發獨家然後之後真的開了節目結果我們NCC還在後面"},{"start":6897.683,"end":6917.177,"text":"撥接 卡 然後再說我們再來蒐集資料這個是未來式它的官網沒有披露變成事實之後我們一定會依法來處理目前它是披露是未來式但是該家公司它的官網其實也沒有我只想請教一下這樣是不是有違法的行為"},{"start":6918.098,"end":6942.137,"text":"因為目前是這是違法的行為就是我依照剛剛好 如果你這樣講他這樣子的一個獨家新聞是不是違法的行為如果他是真正性節目的話就是違反他當初的我們對他的一些拘束就要開罰所以說代理主委已經講了這是一個違法的行為如果我們是最後認定是 我就說現在新聞嘛你有看到那新聞報導出來吧"},{"start":6944.147,"end":6973.307,"text":"新聞有報導但是我們去了解該家公司其實他的官網其實還沒有披露任何東西我們會持續關注因為這個是明年還沒發生事實那任何行為必須要有事實基礎主委本席現在只確認就是說他是違法行為所以說已經確認這是違法行為那如果說他真的做了一個違法行為的時候該依法處置就要依法處置不要再讓國人認為是說NCC張CC看到不同顏色就轉彎可以嗎"},{"start":6973.927,"end":6979.793,"text":"可以如果他開的是這個節目我們就會處理好謝謝我們黃木凱委員的質詢接下來請陳雪山委員質詢好謝謝趙偉老師請陳主委來陳代理主委請"},{"start":7004.099,"end":7030.317,"text":"各位早馬祖防衛指揮部有六十餘位官兵四官兵那麼跟那個炸團勾結盜買人頭這個案子你知道嗎有稍微看到媒體報導稍微看到 有沒有去了解我沒有請我們的相關的同仁去跟相關機關來進行了解"},{"start":7032.694,"end":7046.229,"text":"這個案情發生在軍中我們國軍部隊被匪諜侵入現在又被炸團侵入 這還得了你們現在打炸的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":7047.626,"end":7067.551,"text":"在我們NCE負責的堵炸的這一塊我們會持續努力那比方說從兩年以前這個國際來化這邊當時是相對是比較大團利用的管道目前這一塊都比較已經被我們抑制住了那目前還有其他的利用IPPBS還有"},{"start":7068.931,"end":7097.517,"text":"那個發號碼不顯示這一塊那我們也在處理那我們已經提出這個請電信業者來配合明年五月底以前這個不顯示來電不顯示號碼的來電部分要發出語音警告就類似現在國際電話沒有 現在像你NCC跟速發部跟警政署內政部警政署你們有沒有跟國軍的單位也做一個橫向的聯繫因為駁斥你們也是很複雜的"},{"start":7100.024,"end":7123.335,"text":"如果達沙中心這邊應該會有統合相關部會那但是以國軍的弟兄如果他平時他放假怎麼樣他也是電信使用者的話這一塊其實是無分他是不是國軍與否那他申請就是要KYC部隊的管理是非常軍事管理非常嚴格的是不是作戰單位他的軍事的管理是非常嚴格的怎麼會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":7124.758,"end":7153.206,"text":"我覺得你們回去以後跟國防部要密切的聯繫檢討好不好好 我們透過指揮中心來共同來處理另外這個NCC是不是一個獨立行使職權的機關是 個案上一定是剛才幾位委員也講了你們NCC被人家記為張CC你有沒有聽過這個名詞有你什麼時候把它修正回來嘛NCC就是NCC嘛你個人當主委你有沒有覺得你是不是在獨立行使職權"},{"start":7154.011,"end":7180.692,"text":"你個人的感覺我覺得是是喔是我覺得不是耶是嗎你這90%應該是90%不是10%的是啦那10%是政策的政策是整個行政院團隊一體的欸你們怎麼可以跟著政策走就這樣走勒個案是獨立機關61大法官61號的解釋已經解釋這樣子了個案在NCC是立法院三讀通過的東西"},{"start":7182.685,"end":7212.018,"text":"行政院每一樣都給他行職去憲法大法官去解釋 釋憲那不要立法院就好了 要立法院幹什麼你會覺得立法院是多餘的我覺得立法院可以撤銷啦中華民國的五權憲法 立法院可以不要了加個大法官就好了大法官就可以決定一切了大法官全部都是執政黨提名的人選那他決定就好了嘛 要立法院幹什麼還要打架吵架吵吵鬧鬧是不是"},{"start":7213.177,"end":7236.042,"text":"我相信大法官都會本於自身專業來獨立行使職權好 他講的他獨立行使職權就跟陳儒NCC講的獨立行使職權你們NCC委員我們讓你過關了過關以後怎麼樣你中間你會恢復嗎你搞不好把TVBS再給他砍掉"},{"start":7237.238,"end":7262.191,"text":"我前幾天質詢現在什麼電視台啊每天罵綠的舞台就是罵藍的就是罵藍的對不對TVBS我看罵綠的也還少他也怕他罵得太過分的話TVBS你把他關台了新聞台都有表意自由那全部 乾脆全部啊你NCC主導之下全部把他變成綠的算了是不是跟最近那個哪一國 韋國的選舉"},{"start":7265.305,"end":7286.119,"text":"有反對的人通通不會報導那你跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣 一樣嘛台灣跟中國大陸有什麼兩樣人家中國大陸經濟在起飛啊你去看看人家的建設怎麼樣 我們台灣建設的什麼我不是說自己在嘲笑自己啦 對不對去看看嘛 你不要媒體在那邊騙老百姓啊"},{"start":7287.018,"end":7314.424,"text":"台灣媒體目前是百花齊放是多元意見的呈現都在吵啊 都在罵啊 每天罵反正反正提出一個東西他就罵他提出一個東西就罵他把他罵到臭為止嘛 就這樣子啊這個政治喔外面有敵人 內部又不團結怎麼團結得起來這樣呢 是不是正面來看也是監督的力量不過你媒體喔 媒體有很大的責任我跟你講"},{"start":7315.185,"end":7341.68,"text":"那我請問中天復臺如果我們三讀通過你會給他復臺嗎你不是依法行政我們絕對是依法行政但是依法行政會給他復臺嗎如果法律相關的一些究竟程序相關再提大法官立法院不要算了嘛要立法院幹什麼你會不會覺得立法院是不是多餘的我覺得我當立法院在這邊我即使提一個案子三讀通過有個屁用嘛三讀通過"},{"start":7342.952,"end":7355.883,"text":"以前刪除通過是很慎重的行政院要總辭 失敗要總辭的現在可以副議八次 九次 十次就一百次嘛什麼五權憲法 狗屁啊好 我再問你2003年 台灣自由的浪潮雲起我們弄了一個廣電三法"},{"start":7371.117,"end":7391.885,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體,我請問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?你門心是問黨政軍退出媒體了嗎?我們在執行這個法令,如果他不小心誤觸,他沒有做到的話就會受罰。只有你不知道啦,老百姓全部都知道。"},{"start":7392.861,"end":7415.631,"text":"啊 你問那個彰化以北的 全部都知道只有彰化以南的不知道他連TVBS有的飯店裡面都不放了這有這樣子 台灣怎麼很奇怪啊這個地方好 另外就是這個陸續修正以後 黨政運推動盤陸續修正以後那有的一個議員他持股 持了一股 欸 他就不能換照囉"},{"start":7417.689,"end":7442.727,"text":"對 所以就突然你們現在怎麼處理我們現在就是因為也是純粹依法行政所以該都是對方一定會提會提起行政訴訟那我們也會去應訴然後很多案子確實如委員提案所顯示的他不合理講的有的跟沒有的一樣嘛就是規則對象不合理是不是要去打官司要去一審二審三審是不是再又到大法官那裡去了是不是這樣子"},{"start":7444.066,"end":7469.968,"text":"大致是這樣我是沒有念書有念書我也想去當大法官太好了大法官可以頂頂立法院113個委員現在有的只買了一張議員買了一張還有政黨人員在公開的市場他買下很少的股票"},{"start":7472.332,"end":7501.824,"text":"但是他沒有沒有做經營啊這個在換到以後也會有困難嗎所以這是不合理的地方所以確實就是黨軍軍條款需要做適度的一些修正調整你們有一些能夠修的把它修一修嘛好不好好沒問題我們其實內部幕僚作業都有持續在更新我們的版本與時俱進再做調整好啦我想NCC你對中天的事情有沒有慎重我們將來如果提案修法的時候如果三讀通過"},{"start":7503.325,"end":7527.545,"text":"我希望看到你依法行政好不好你不要再拿到行政演習 再來搞什麼復議啊什麼大法官解釋啊那我真的 台灣的立法 台灣的司法立法沒有用了好不好 謝謝啦謝謝委員好 謝謝陳學生委員好 代理座也請回再請李昆哲委員那李昆哲委員質詢完畢之後我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7534.958,"end":7558.705,"text":"謝謝趙委請一下陳代理主委陳代理主委請還有司法院林法官來林法官請趙委好陳代理主委好有關於廣電法第17條的修正案部分的委員有相關的提案就是說衛星廣播電視的事業執照如果遭到註銷廢止"},{"start":7560.205,"end":7588.084,"text":"他如果提起行政訴訟在訴願期間或者是行政訴訟還沒有確定判決之前執照繼續的有效那修正通過之後他的效力是溯及既往而且適用徵訟中的一個案件那這樣的一個立法的旨意最主要會造成行政機關的行政處分無效化這樣的一個"},{"start":7591.486,"end":7615.58,"text":"執行這樣的一個修正那當然行政機關的這樣的按照目前的現行法制他的行政執行力是一個重要的一個處分我先請教一下司法院林法官那目前這樣的一個修正案是否符合行政訴訟法的一個基本原則來請說明謝謝委員吹詢"},{"start":7616.34,"end":7638.109,"text":"那關於這個行政訴訟法在116條第一項跟第三項有規定就是我國的法治是以救濟不停止原處分的效力為原則以停止為例外情況那如果在個案上如果發生有重大損失或是避免緊急急迫危險有必要的情況或者是在處分執行難以回復重大損害或有急迫緊急的話是例外賦予"},{"start":7638.989,"end":7660.644,"text":"當事人在行政訴訟法依照行政訴訟法116條第三項或者是通話298條第二項來申請定暫時狀態處分那是讓法官能夠在個案中去橫平彼此的這個利益權衡來決定這個是不是有暫時權高比好謝謝林法官我請教你這樣的一個修正案符不符合行政訴訟法的基本原則"},{"start":7663.187,"end":7684.206,"text":"那關於這個這個提案的話就是本院的意見是有提出說這個可能是跟現行的116條這個精神是不同的不過因為我們116條其實是有一個處罰法律令有規定的一個處疏條款所以我們還是尊重這個主管機關以及大院的一個立法形成自由謝謝"},{"start":7684.847,"end":7705.833,"text":"好如果按照相關的這種行政處分無效化如果這樣17條修正可行的話那其他相關的新的違建我們必須是急報其差如果他提起行政救濟或訴訟是否就要暫時緩差如果我們的目前的"},{"start":7707.053,"end":7731.121,"text":"廣告的食品或者是藥品它的成分有爭議那我們行政處問說你不能賣那他也提起行政訴訟或者是相關的訴願在還沒有確定之前他還可以繼續賣嗎或者是詐騙廣告他認為他沒有詐騙但是我們認定他有詐騙的這樣的一個疑義的時候它是否還可以繼續的存在這就是我們今天要討論"},{"start":7732.401,"end":7758.4,"text":"相關的這種行政處分無效化必須嚴肅來面對的議題我請教一下陳主委請林法官回座休息陳主委有關於這樣的一個行政無效化在現行的法律行政執行率是處分的一個重要的一個過程那我請教一下這樣的一個行政執行率它對於維護廣電秩序的重要性是什麼來說明一下"},{"start":7758.72,"end":7787.378,"text":"是 谢谢赵伟那我们就举一个假设有一台电视台它是很喜欢播色心山跟暴力假设这个法通过之后假设我们不与它换照然后它一样再借着提行的诉讼来继续来营业的话其实会有两个部分的影响第一个在媒体业界而言其实它会产生媒体生态的负面牵引"},{"start":7788.223,"end":7812.722,"text":"那其他人就會效法那會造成整體這個媒體的內容向下沉淪那也會破壞這個守法或很健康媒體的一些競爭基礎假設色辛山暴力的電視台他雖然被NCC沒有給他換照可是他藉著訴訟繼續營運的話那廣告又持續投放這個是不健康的"},{"start":7813.402,"end":7834.945,"text":"那對社會對公共利益的部分的話大概又分為三個指點第一點它會對社會風氣跟價值觀的影響它會弱化社會規範的感覺那認為說這種情況是OK嗎也會正常化偏差行為這不是我們要的也會侵蝕公共道德跟文化品質"},{"start":7835.706,"end":7854.319,"text":"因為我們都知道媒體有文化引導的作用那如果這樣的媒體沒有辦法透過建立機關給它適時的遏止那這種情況之後會越來越劣化那它對民主社會跟公共討論品質其實是有所損害的那如果媒體大量生產這種刺激性"},{"start":7855.98,"end":7881.594,"text":"不良的內容那因為這個法的通過其實會讓這個弱化公民對這深度議題的一些關注的能力那更不要講說假設他是從一直一直在播出暴力的內容又不受這個這個沒辦法讓他離開這個平台的話他對治安對公共安全是有潛在的影響他是鼓勵犯罪模仿"},{"start":7882.034,"end":7898.902,"text":"那也會弱化大家對犯罪後果的一些認知這些都是對公共政策跟監管機關的形成一個壓力那主管機關會被這個法定變成說主管機關的可信度會讓民眾以為說這個已經沒有了"},{"start":7901.744,"end":7919.001,"text":"謝謝陳代理主委我想維護新聞自由是全民大家共同的期待與責任那維護新聞自由當然最重要的要靠自律跟他律自律就是新聞媒體必須要遵守相關的新聞規範來自我檢視"},{"start":7921.283,"end":7949.37,"text":"那他律呢媒體的他律就是要接受社會其他人輿論或是政府依照法令的一個監督那相關的這樣的一個自律跟他律最重要就是建立一種制度性的一種保障這就是林子儀大法官所提的制度性的新聞自由的保障就是透過這樣的一個制度性自律跟他律的這樣的一個精神"},{"start":7950.871,"end":7975.684,"text":"來維護這樣的一個廣電秩序讓廣電的新聞自由能夠公平自由多元的一個發展那現在相關的他律的部分不管是評鑑或是換照是一個重要的過程那相關的評鑑跟換照對於維護廣電秩序以及新聞自由有什麼重要性來說明一下"},{"start":7976.69,"end":8005.309,"text":"平均換照其實可以讓如果這個媒體經營有比較不好的地方可以讓他有一個即時糾正的機制讓他來及早來處理那如果這塊這個法通過的話那其實對應的這一部分必須要相應的來調整怎麼說呢如果這個特別的法通過是在結構上給他開了一條比較鬆綁的路在這個平衡上那行為管制這邊我個人認為說在"},{"start":8007.011,"end":8013.401,"text":"裁罰在罰則那邊其實要相應的做一些調整簡單來講就是要更嚴格"},{"start":8014.574,"end":8039.034,"text":"那對於新聞自由這是憲法上保障的一種制度性的保障這樣的保障就是國家對媒體的管制並不是限制性的這種限制言論而是要維護新聞機構健全的運作這才是我們對於新聞自由一個重要的保障"},{"start":8039.854,"end":8055.588,"text":"讓他能夠有多元民主自由的一個市場的一個發聲這是我們NCC一個重要的責任那針對第17條的一個修正那NCC的說明必須讓你來做一個簡單的一個補充"},{"start":8057.093,"end":8082.437,"text":"好那謝謝張偉那陳主任剛剛照所講到其實憲法對過往的大法官509對言論自由有表明說其實言論自由不是無限無限為所必為的必須要有一定的局數在廣電媒體這一塊大法官的364號解釋也一定說明這個主管就是政府機關其實可以對他做一些一定必要的一些處理這就是剛剛文報告所提到的"},{"start":8082.757,"end":8110.472,"text":"制度性的保障是要搭配一個它相對的權利與義務其實是並存的那它有的制度性的保障當然要付出相對性的一些自我節制的一些規範謝謝對於新聞自由我們憲法以及大法官的認知就是要建立制度性的一個保障保障廣電的新聞自由媒體他們能夠民主多元的一個健全的發展這是我們要共同努力的一個目標"},{"start":8111.897,"end":8120.354,"text":"謝謝趙偉 謝謝好 謝謝李崑澤 趙偉代理主委請回那我們交通委員會休息十分鐘十分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":8152.582,"end":8152.602,"text":"好"},{"start":8176.201,"end":8181.962,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8223.971,"end":8231.733,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8250.458,"end":8263.525,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8288.965,"end":8303.389,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8317.995,"end":8323.473,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8339.974,"end":8367.5,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8728.444,"end":8733.966,"text":"好 感謝交通委員會現在繼續開會我們請再來何欣淳委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們是不是請陳代理主委來 陳代理主委請"},{"start":8748.851,"end":8765.399,"text":"好 謝謝孟愷主委好我想一直以來我對NCC的要求那就是對我們兒少一定要守護還有打擊詐騙那第一個我諮詢了很多次也提案來修法"},{"start":8766.199,"end":8784.673,"text":"譬如說我們對於這個兒少的一個權益我們的電信管理很重要我還記得我還曾經要求NCC的這個所謂的兒少白皮書一定要趕快出來我知道你們正在努力當中但是我先講譬如說我們三讀通過"},{"start":8785.694,"end":8804.254,"text":"家中持有兒少性影像的刑責這個是在我們的兒少性剝削防治條例以及刑法的修法我有提案在今年我們還有三讀通過就是要納管二類的電信業者就是電信管理法我為什麼會講這兩件事情因為我們知道"},{"start":8805.155,"end":8831.852,"text":"像類似創意私房這樣子的侵犯了兒少的這個性影像那剝削了兒少讓這個社會還有呢大眾家長等等都非常的不安那這牽涉到的就是什麼他們的管道流通的通路是來自於二類電信是其中一個流通管道所以呢這個跟NCC非常有這個責任要去"},{"start":8832.652,"end":8856.002,"text":"防止而且要去能夠管理二類電信業者這是第一個第二個跟這個打擊詐騙有關也是一樣包括我們打詐的專法那我有提案那也三讀通過那我也持續的在監督尤其在專法通過之後到現在那NCC打詐的一個成績單成效到底在哪裡這個呢為什麼我又這麼說因為這牽涉到"},{"start":8858.783,"end":8877.677,"text":"也是NCC主管的業務二類電信的管理來下一頁我們在2025的6月18號電信管理法三讀確實有納管的二類電信2025的7月2號公佈7月4號生效但是我們有了一個過渡期"},{"start":8878.197,"end":8895.67,"text":"修法後的一年內要向NCC登記那大家都會說我們剛剛提到了不管是要守護兒少或者是要打擊詐騙就是納管二類電信的這個所謂的第一個轉售電話號碼第二個提供上網寬頻服務的業者因為這是"},{"start":8897.291,"end":8922.776,"text":"這是什麼詐騙訊息資訊的一個流通的大量流通的管道第二個兒童少年的這個性剝削性影像的這些資訊影片影音等等也都經常而且是大量的透過所謂的寬頻服務的業者去轉售去轉播那這個東西我們修法之後我的疑問是就能夠杜絕詐騙就能夠守護兒少嗎"},{"start":8925.777,"end":8947.14,"text":"因為我們NCC在對外的這個說帖裡面跟對媒體宣誓對國人說來為了要全面堵炸所以第二類電信納管那我們都支持 朝野都支持但是來下一頁我為什麼會一個問號因為修法之後我們看到"},{"start":8948.101,"end":8966.458,"text":"上個禮拜還有媒體還有我們台中市警察局查獲詐騙集團勾結二類電信業者行詐而且這一次在台中市發生警察局所查獲的這個二類電信業者跟詐騙集團發花量發了40萬通"},{"start":8970.902,"end":8991.108,"text":"超過300人受害 財損超過新台幣3億那這個詐騙的手法是什麼他利用境外的詐騙機房然後我們國內的二類電信業者提供線路訊號落地偽裝成本國式化進行詐騙這個是修法後 還是這樣子 主委"},{"start":8995.74,"end":9008.703,"text":"難怪我會有一個問號我想國人也都這個問號修法之後就能夠杜絕詐騙守護兒少嗎這個例子主委你知道嗎知道 那有沒有進行了解"},{"start":9009.524,"end":9023.83,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有 先前就已經有在提出相關對策那對策是什麼 告訴我們好 那其實剛剛委員提到的他的態樣其實是利用網路電話然後在台灣落地之後又透過這個號碼批發轉送的方式來帶出這個"},{"start":9028.113,"end":9050.69,"text":"在地端的一些社會號碼那這一塊我們有在處理這個IPPBS設備這一塊我們有要求這個相關的這個海關那邊能夠跟他協作做一些相關貨品列號的管制那未來其實在針對這個化物部分主委你剛剛你那一點再說更清楚一點你的意思是說相關的設備"},{"start":9052.869,"end":9076.945,"text":"詐騙集團跟二類電信業者他們的這個流通管道的相關的硬體設備你有要求海關要積極的查扣防止進入台灣嗎如果他是屬於電信終端設備要NC認證沒有認證的我們就給他查扣我記得上次我們也有人問你海關人攔的那些平行輸入的自己帶進來的那怎麼攔"},{"start":9078.722,"end":9104.279,"text":"那這邊就是我們有輔助就是從電信業者端如果他的信務行為是異常的那目前我們也要求電信業者修他的服務契約只要發現這個異常的就根據打造條例修了嗎你要求他修了已經修了而且所有的電信業者都已經修了行網顧網都修了所以只要他化物異常的業者就可以給他斷話或者相關做一些通報處理其實這一塊我們都持續在處理得斷話"},{"start":9108.441,"end":9127.054,"text":"只有得不是因沒有強制性嗎有些特殊情況但是通常我們都給他業者通常都把斷了請他回來做KYC如果他不願意回來通常都是涉詐的我們都會請我聽到你這樣的說明的時候我就認為說那你應該還要再跟這些電信業者還要再強硬的溝通"},{"start":9128.132,"end":9146.975,"text":"那你的修改契約裡面是得因為這個訊誤異常我們跟他是否就是從事詐騙這個等號等過去會有點危險那我們主委NCC這邊是不是可以去進一步的去研析各種樣態然後可以把"},{"start":9147.896,"end":9168.644,"text":"把每個樣態把它理清楚而且那條列式的讓這些電信業者能夠有強制性的阻絕詐騙的一個態度立場跟方法去做這個是你可以做的我們已經做其實有跟業者都討論過那有些太陽業者先把它斷後終止他們部分的服務"},{"start":9169.264,"end":9192.375,"text":"那他不敢回來 KYC通常都是涉障這邊我們都跟檢警調來合作那甚至於說把這個IPPS所看到撈到的那色化號碼我們都提供給165那邊來處理甚至他就間接透過高檢署給相關的平台數位平台那給他斷掉他因為那個號碼來從事這個申請帳號部分那這邊都有在一些把他的帳號一併都剷除掉"},{"start":9196.898,"end":9221.875,"text":"這個我知道警政署上次應該說上個禮拜在內政委員會曾經對於這個防詐、堵詐、打詐有一個專案報告那我在裡面的資料看到確實它有阻斷的門號還有呢停播這個電話通訊等等我相信是跟NCC合作而去要求電信業者但是呢我覺得還不夠因為我看那個數字遠遠"},{"start":9224.156,"end":9252.808,"text":"不及國人的認為因為國人認為我們的詐騙太嚴重了所以我還是認為NCC應該再進一步的去跟跨部會合作跟內政部警政署跟其他單位跨部會合作好好的就這個二類電信業者可能在這個詐騙集團裡面扮演的關鍵角色如果我們可以在這裡做斷點那才能夠有效的防止國人被詐"},{"start":9253.368,"end":9268.724,"text":"是我们都会持续努力那目前就是透过两个部会我们把这个设诈的门号告诉透过检警调透过高检署通告出发部所主管的那些平台把他平台上因为那些门号去注册的那些账号都砍掉"},{"start":9269.363,"end":9298.442,"text":"好但是呢你們的效率不夠下一頁為什麼我們二類電信納管從修法到現在那已經半年了以我抓了一下你們的數字修法施行前我曾經質詢過你你告訴我總共盤點手中掌握216家是二類電信業者那呢在當時候4月份的時候你說已登記65家那我們修法6月修法之後到現在"},{"start":9299.563,"end":9308.537,"text":"才登記75家也就是說在這半年裡面只有增加了10家的業者來登記來納管那還有141家業者呢"},{"start":9313.854,"end":9330.624,"text":"216是電信法時期的二類二類的它這個大項目下面有包括IASB包括其他的一些語音轉送等等的部分IASB跟這個MVMO我都幫你列出來ISB MVMO等等它目前幾乎都有用"},{"start":9332.685,"end":9341.487,"text":"有從事的都有來登記 但是其他是二類二類是個大集合 裡頭有ISB 有MVMOISB MVMO 目前都有來登記"},{"start":9342.15,"end":9362.683,"text":"目前都有來登記那你請會後給我一個完整的來登記的業者名單我們希望不能漏網為什麼因為呢到那個一年的過渡期裡面這個過渡期還有半年那這半年裡面到底有沒有業者還沒來登記的那還有在這個過渡期裡面那NCC如何監管這個呢都會"},{"start":9363.904,"end":9392.046,"text":"直接影響到我剛剛講的守護兒少還有打擊詐騙的成效所以拜託主委會後給我一個詳細的資料好不好一定要好好的要全部來要求登記納管我們要能夠掌握才能夠有斷點阻詐防止國人被騙守護兒少的權益跟他的身體好不好好我們會繼續努力謝謝謝謝何清淳委員來會後再提供相關資料"},{"start":9394.329,"end":9422.456,"text":"好 接下來再請林俊憲委員資訊好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳代主委陳代主委請文豪主委好 主委我們今天我先跟你關心一下今天大家都很關心我們這個打炸的事情"},{"start":9423.806,"end":9429.9,"text":"那打炸四把通過以後到底有沒有一些進步就政府的打炸的那個成效來看"},{"start":9431.124,"end":9457.439,"text":"我看我們那個財損就被騙的財損數從去年的8月公告是138億下降到今年10月剩60億是有一些進步啦但是我覺得仍然還是要努力只要詐騙存在我們就應該要持續的來政府就打造方面不能鬆懈"},{"start":9459.06,"end":9479.979,"text":"受理的案件數從21,244件下降到13,673件就是去年的10月跟今年6月做一個比較請問主委知道詐騙最多的是哪一類型的"},{"start":9480.981,"end":9494.258,"text":"就是這邊購物跟投資詐騙購物最多啦就是其實它NC是負責賭詐其實前面還有懲詐後面還有懲詐還有金管會的一些"},{"start":9495.9,"end":9497.401,"text":"你先不要推 網路推到速發部去"},{"start":9526.4,"end":9552.549,"text":"合作啦 兩個部會合作你們本來就要合作我今天就是要講你跟蘇發部很多地方根本沒有合作啦你們跨一個單位啊那兩邊啊這個資訊就有嚴重落差啦你看網路購屋詐騙幾件 96件件數最多啦你看他財損金額雖然不高647萬但是因為啊這個會影響到民眾"},{"start":9553.909,"end":9578.257,"text":"這個情緒很不滿 因為它件數很多現代人很常在網路上購物買東西那就會發 有那種感覺到處都是陷阱那邊購物要吃的東西就歡樂 怕拿到詐騙所以這種都會影響到國民的情緒所以既然它排名第一 網路購物詐騙那一定要優先針對它"},{"start":9580.837,"end":9601.222,"text":"第二就是你講的假投資詐騙假投資詐騙它更複雜第一個它必須要利用人的想投資的那個慾望或者是貪念第三它必須營造出就是它的技術會更高營造出這個真的可以讓你賺錢種種"},{"start":9603.723,"end":9616.37,"text":"我先來講一般人民生問題最常碰到的網路詐騙這裡有一個新聞2023年有一個當事人用企業的名義去向電信業者申請了30萬門的電信號碼你知道"},{"start":9625.328,"end":9633.12,"text":"我們的法令的腳步多慢到2023年還可以用企業的名義一次就申請30萬個"},{"start":9636.468,"end":9664.277,"text":"那個電信的門號對根本包括後來就擋掉了後來現在不行了嘛對就打這條例事情前的那後來都把這個洞鎖起來了2023年還可以喔那2024年才不行對不對去年去年就不行了因為我們打炸司法通過以後我們就有一個KYC啦你比較了解到你到底誰來申請門號可是在那之前幾乎啊你用企業的名義啊你可以申請無限量的門號好"},{"start":9667.202,"end":9692.375,"text":"那你知道在網路上你要開一個購物平台你要開一個帳戶你必須要用一個手機號碼通常是這樣那一個手機號碼開一個網路購物平台上的帳號那如果你被發現是詐騙像我給你看了這個新聞有兩個嫌疑犯"},{"start":9693.877,"end":9712.334,"text":"他們四個人 申辦了9萬多筆的大哥大門號你看這個很可怕四個人的清高版規格然後去一個購物平台他創設了好幾萬個賬戶供詐騙集團使用結果被抓到"},{"start":9720.888,"end":9747.345,"text":"被抓到以後呢 那NCC就會處理啦你就會把他申請的這幾個電信門號 你會把它給撤銷NCC有做到啦 有 有 好但是事發部就沒有這個聯繫啦來 我們再來看一下他用大哥大的門號一般 那個購物平台會要求你要有一個電信門號才可以申請一個購物平台的帳號"},{"start":9748.386,"end":9775.327,"text":"好 那現在被抓到了電信門號被NTT撤銷了但是這些詐騙的帳號在購物平台上仍然繼續存在 繼續活躍那你說的網路現在購物平台是誰在管司法部 那司法部在管嘛對 這塊我們都有協作我們是透過高檢署把這個門號這邊涉詐處理掉的我們同步請高檢署轉給來來來 我再給你看"},{"start":9777.569,"end":9796.61,"text":"我們現在並沒有這樣的一個跨部會的聯繫我希望你們要趕快去我們加強其實跟我們報告在今年其實我們就透過高檢署把這個設在門號轉給電商平台把它的一些帳號都1.8萬個帳號都產出了你們行政部門為什麼要推給你們為什麼要這樣推呢"},{"start":9799.193,"end":9818.531,"text":"不是推 那因為我們高點署你不是覺得要打炸國家隊那是個合作的平台你不是叫一個合作平台啊但是只要你NCC把這個帳號給取消掉你應該就要通知另外一個管理網路的部會嘛"},{"start":9820.633,"end":9821.914,"text":"其實我們也有同步給這個檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":9838.686,"end":9850.818,"text":"就是很多被破貨的詐騙他使用的當時在購物平台上在網路平台上他設立的那種詐騙帳號帳戶會繼續存在"},{"start":9855.602,"end":9873.768,"text":"那號碼已經被你這邊撤銷了撤銷只是讓他不能再去別的平台開立帳戶而已或者他不能使用但是他已經之前在網路平台上設立的帳戶他可以繼續騙我現在今天要跟你討論的就是這一點"},{"start":9875.7,"end":9891.585,"text":"有 我會再處理先前台灣使用最多的通訊軟體那時候透過門號的處理也把它4萬多個帳號剷除剛剛跟委員報告我們今年年中透過高點數轉給速發部電商平台處理掉也處理掉1.8萬個帳號"},{"start":9894.009,"end":9914.457,"text":"才1.8萬嗎 不止吧是兩攤 第一攤那個是4萬多我給你看這幾個案件這些詐騙分子之前在電信公司申請的門號你看我今天隨便貼一個9萬多個號碼之前媒體報導的也有一片清三十幾萬盒在2023年以前這就都合法了"},{"start":9918.888,"end":9945.182,"text":"我們的法令是非常落伍的我們一直到去年打詐司法以後才禁止這樣行為所以現在在外面流通的不知道幾百萬個門號他們可以很隨意的去到處開設那種詐騙帳戶難怪台灣之前的那種詐騙那麼猖獗好不好這部分我們會持續努力跨部會的事情你們要趕緊幫我處理好不好這樣才像一個打詐國家隊嘛好那事情你做一步謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":9948.824,"end":9968.602,"text":"好 謝謝再接下來請邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在請蔡奇昌委員自選謝謝主席 請陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":9973.396,"end":9996.611,"text":"委員好 主委在討論今天這個修法的議題之前本席延續著剛剛林俊憲委員所講這個打炸真的要有雷霆萬鈞的手段本席這一屆在這個臺上質詢你 質詢速發部其實重點都在這裡"},{"start":9997.697,"end":10026.653,"text":"那什麼叫雷霆萬鈞很好啊小紅書只要不配合以讀不回不配合打詐我們就公權力就處理啊不只是小紅書我只是舉小紅書當例子本席很站本席站在打詐立場我認為這個是做得非常對不只只有小紅書喔像這些公私行號其他一大堆不落地的以讀不回的"},{"start":10027.847,"end":10052.782,"text":"他明顯影響消費者權益 影響台灣社會秩序的就應該要像內政部這樣的手段嘛主委 我同樣跟你講這個 也會跟速發部長講你們都不夠強硬啦 打詐都不夠強硬啦台灣社會的民眾對於詐騙是深惡痛絕啦這些社群平台他賺他們的錢"},{"start":10054.909,"end":10078.62,"text":"但是政府面這些社群平台成為打詐成為詐騙的溫床政府要打詐請他們提供一些資料推三阻四這小紅書當然更誇張已讀不回在台灣也沒有什麼分公司所以這種要雷霆外民眾才有感說政府打詐是玩真的主委你覺得呢"},{"start":10079.676,"end":10105.423,"text":"支持我們都持續在逃的方向努力所以我要講剛剛林俊賢講這些例子你應該去盤點一下嘛到底是法律問題還是說你行政要一定要修法或者不需要修法你透過行政的力量這些要是這些其他公司行號不配合你管他是哪一國的就應該讓民眾覺得政府在處理打炸就是雷霆萬鈞啊"},{"start":10107.113,"end":10130.801,"text":"就是手段非常的迅猛強硬過去我們都喝 你比較少那抒發部一直在喝咖啡本席對喝咖啡我就很有意見喝咖啡是先禮後兵啦咖啡一直喝沒用就要改喝毒藥不然民眾的權益每天看到這些新聞這些退休的老人家被詐騙"},{"start":10132.551,"end":10152.43,"text":"我們大家情何以堪啊作為民意代表要把人民的心聲講出來啊主委 好不好好 沒問題延續林俊憲委員剛剛所提的這些案例到底是要修法的我們立法院來配合不用修法你行政法案可以處理的就像小紅書這樣就應該要處理啊 好不好好 沒問題"},{"start":10153.837,"end":10179.883,"text":"再來這一次的修法本席其實是很有意見的過去立法院我在立法院也20年了大家在無論朝野各政黨大家都在講委員會中心主義就是希望任何的法案讓在委員會裡面可以得到較為充分的討論再送到院會讓其他不是我們委員會的委員也可以共同參與然後再二讀三讀通過"},{"start":10181.397,"end":10205.025,"text":"那主席啊很熱心排了這個案子但是很可惜這案子交通委員都還沒有討論國民黨就在程序委員會裡面直接把檔板淨附二讀所以本席就覺得那今天交通委員會開這個的意思是國民黨裡面的檔板比較重要國民黨委員提的案子繼續在交通委員會裡面審然後國民黨檔板的這個"},{"start":10207.456,"end":10233.839,"text":"廣電的法案的修法就直接禁覆二讀不需要再經過交通委員們的討論所以本席覺得這個是直接就打臉的主席這個主席真的就按照委員會中心主義來這裡討論不管最後結果是什麼這個就是一個立法品質的程序這也是尊重委員會的一個具體展現所以本席對於這種動不動就禁覆二讀"},{"start":10234.676,"end":10264.279,"text":"你進負二讀如果是說你的案子是因為其他人的已經二讀了所以你跟不上所以併案進負二讀這本席沒意見因為這個就是因為你的案子總不能你就還程序慢人家一點可是明明主席都已經排了這個案子要讓朝野委員好好的在交通委員裡面討論審查但卻人家擋板就直接送了所以本席作為一個立法院的老兵我覺得我應該把這個現象再一次點出來"},{"start":10265.213,"end":10289.261,"text":"不要這樣搞啦這個對立法院這個誰都有可能這個執政嘛誰在立法院都有可能當院長立法院有一些慣例跟傳統是好的那有一些不好當然可以改那有一些是好的讓委員可以充分討論立法品質也會提升讓社會反應對於任何議案在社會的反應都足夠時間而不是直接就進負惡果"},{"start":10290.53,"end":10304.939,"text":"本席不管朝野什麼政黨我對這種沒什麼道理就要敬夫惡毒的如果說你是緊急譬如說我們現在救災法案很緊急你要敬夫惡毒朝野都沒意見那我覺得就敬夫惡毒但是這個有一些就好好的讓大家討論為什麼不這樣做呢"},{"start":10307.581,"end":10334.026,"text":"所以這個是本席第一點要提出來當然這跟你沒關那第二點這個修法裡面其實很多的東西要好好的討論我覺得NCC也應該做準備譬如說有委員提案要鬆綁黨政軍條款那事實上黨政軍介入媒體這個在台灣社會普遍人的想法裡面還是覺得不宜因為大家對黨政軍還是充滿著不確定不信任跟莫名的恐懼"},{"start":10335.166,"end":10353.682,"text":"所以你要讓黨政軍重新掌握媒體這個其實是不宜但是委員提案他是要刪除那個叫間接投資那本席不是主張要刪除不是主張黨政軍要讓黨政軍去介入媒體但本席覺得這一個題目委員提"},{"start":10354.889,"end":10374.539,"text":"刪除間接你們應該好好的接招啦什麼意思呢本期只舉一些小小的案例就好譬如說這個主席啊他合法正常的投資他買了一張啊某一個媒體公司在他直接去黑板買直接就買譬如說買了一張運動頻道愛爾達好了他買了一張"},{"start":10380.37,"end":10399.709,"text":"主委可不可以在現行的法令底下他買了一張中式 買了一張愛爾達可不可以現行的法令那都不行主委你有沒有覺得這個有一點怪怪的就明明他只是一個投資者他的數量也不過一張"},{"start":10401.328,"end":10414.528,"text":"那他被說是黨政軍介入媒體因為他是立法委員所以我的意思是說是可被討論但是本席覺得直接把間接刪掉我也覺得這個太粗暴了"},{"start":10415.29,"end":10443.358,"text":"那間接刪掉的意思說只能直接不能直接可以間接那某政黨自己成立一個投資公司然後投資公司再去持有一個媒體這個叫間接喔那我們把只刪除間接說間接可以那這樣其實大家都知道只是轉個彎就間接投資了這個我覺得不妥這個違背了黨政軍這個介入媒體我們不希望黨政軍介入媒體的這個本質命題"},{"start":10445.635,"end":10458.006,"text":"但是現實的商業操作裡面它卻存在著一些我們現行的法令規定裡面過於嚴苛或不合理的部分所以我認為這個題目應該是被"},{"start":10460.598,"end":10487.478,"text":"已經有委員提了嘛而且是多數黨的委員提的所以它通過的機會很高NCC應該要把道理講清楚如果我們反對間接投資那我們應該要怎麼一定程度讓一些太陽它其實是跟黨政軍介入媒體無關的太陽它應該是可以被合理存在那我覺得這個就進入一個比較理性讓社會大眾也知道說"},{"start":10488.937,"end":10516.712,"text":"我們的想法跟立場是什麼所以我的意思是說他被提出來討論本席是同意的但是直接把間接直接刪除這個我覺得過於粗暴他應該有一些條件的規定譬如說你持股要多少譬如說你買個一張兩張這可能不能算黨政軍但你持股達到多少就有可能會對媒體實質產生的影響或對內容有一定程度的控制那這個就違背了那個精神這不可以"},{"start":10517.916,"end":10544.147,"text":"主委所以回去應該好好的面對這個題目這部分我們幕僚作業其實都有準備好所以今天因為有人送二讀了我就不再因為時間這個太多條了本席就只一個例子那另外社會也擔心譬如說你的評鑑你的換照全是有些國家要換照有些國家不用換照都有他的文化背景跟他的這個歷史發展上找到的意義"},{"start":10545.39,"end":10566.893,"text":"所以他沒有叫做絕對的對或絕對的錯那台灣社會也是一樣我們台灣社會面對譬如說對媒體多數人是負面反正因為台灣高度社會高度對立所以只要講跟我意見不同的我就想要對他就不爽那所以每一台都有很多人不爽而且台灣媒體的環境"},{"start":10567.458,"end":10594.275,"text":"所以台灣的媒體環境是不是要把它全面性的都不用管了政府沒有角色讓市場去決定其實在台灣社會是疑慮是很大的啦就好像說外國的銀行沒有負最終賠付的責任他交給市場決定對不對你可以選性品很差經營條件很差的銀行他可能利率高一點但倒了你要自己負責但台灣不可以"},{"start":10595.031,"end":10609.205,"text":"台灣是一個社會習慣賴政府不是賴清德政府是賴給政府這是台灣社會的特性沒有對錯啦我們就希望政府可以來保護我而不是讓我自己去市場上做決定"},{"start":10610.578,"end":10627.136,"text":"所以在這樣的一個社會氛圍跟架構底下存在著怎麼審那審也有很多審法嘛你也可以把客觀的標準定的明確一點讓模糊的空間減少以避免社會爭議跟立法院的爭議"},{"start":10628.437,"end":10657.1,"text":"這個都是可以被提出來好好的面對跟討論所以本席再次強調主席排這個很好讓大家可以充分討論但本席還是要講可以討論的事情好好的討論不要動不動就直接去敬服惡毒啦好 謝謝謝謝韋好 再一次感謝蔡理商委員代主委請回我想也感謝蔡理商委員承認副院長的蔡理商委員的提點我們立交通委員會"},{"start":10658.061,"end":10683.123,"text":"一定本於專業審查並且我們也希望說能夠早期剛來現在做充分的詢答那未來我們也會再安排做主條的審查這一點是我擔任召委一定都會以捍衛交通委員會或是各委員會的委員會中心主義為最高原則這一點是本期也要特別要說明那"},{"start":10684.584,"end":10698.249,"text":"今天也會讓所有諮詢的委員都能夠這個好好的這個暢所欲言當然就是我們也希望說NCE這邊能夠有一個很良性的一個諮詢跟互動好接下來再請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席再有請陳代理主委來陳代理主委請"},{"start":10713.28,"end":10738.522,"text":"委員好主委好 主委今天委員會排審衛星廣播電視法的修正案超越委員共同都提出了多個版本顯示一個共同的焦慮我們的廣電監理制度已經到了不得不修的地步了本席今天也引用學界今年座談會的研討內容以及各政黨團的修法重點就教足為幾個核心的問題首先針對換照制度還有執照的期限"},{"start":10739.262,"end":10756.568,"text":"主委NCC總是宣稱換照是為了把關內容品質但學者林立宇前NCC委員他在論壇上公開承認NCC的審查標準不明確那目前最大的問題是什麼就是好壞都是由NCC說了算"},{"start":10757.888,"end":10773.613,"text":"當評鑑的標準充滿主觀的內控機制還有營運計畫執行情形等字眼的時候換照就變成讓媒體聽話的緊箍咒那NCC想砍向誰就砍向誰那如果前委員都覺得標準像迷霧的話那請主委說明業者要如何適從呢"},{"start":10774.8,"end":10794.168,"text":"看完報告其實我們重大的案件深色評鑑換照其實都前置程序委員會議之前有這個專家學者還有公民團體的組成的諮詢會議來審議其實這意見是多元來呈現來把關的那重大的案件根據我們組織法還可以舉行聽證會那"},{"start":10796.229,"end":10823.361,"text":"大家關心的就是個案上的其實當初也舉行過聽證會其實就是說並不是NCC委員會自己門關起來就來做決定其實都有參採多元的意見來處理所以您說多元意見嗎那許多學者都批評你們的審查不透明然後理由也讓業者困惑的時候你們還是要堅持現行的換照機制嗎那這樣子專業的監理嗎還是為了保有生殺大權呢"},{"start":10824.263,"end":10851.7,"text":"沒有 這個當初其實NCC本身也是這個依法行政那當初的立法的制度賦予NCC在這個框架上來執行那我們就是依法行政來純粹是來處理那當然這個衛廣法18條本身的換照也有規定一些程序那對 這次的修法那許多委員都主張將執照換成永久有效嘛還有自動續照那除非有重大違法才撤照或是審查那您的態度是"},{"start":10852.632,"end":10874.453,"text":"我的看法就是其實委員提案版本有七年的也有九年的也有無窮期的剛剛其他委員有提到其實各國的環境不一樣那台灣有台灣自己的這個當初立法的歷史脈絡那大家的各個國情不一樣那當初既然我們的衛廣法是長成這樣子已經有當初大家"},{"start":10875.033,"end":10899.344,"text":"社會各界的共同共識的一個期待的方式我們一直在討論審查除了這個審查的迷霧之外還缺乏退場機制的問題文化大學的柯智順副教授也指出問題在於進場容易他的進場他進場容易可是他後門緊閉缺乏合理的退場機制讓換照變成唯一的你們的一個武器主委針對這個問題"},{"start":10902.726,"end":10924.105,"text":"剛剛報告我剛剛聽到主委您報告說您有提到平埔是稀有的資源沒錯吧對那是五廣法裡頭會用到無限電比例那是稀有資源所以一般而言是五廣那邊的管制密度會比較高一點所以主委您也提到公益性那您一直拿這個公益性來當擋箭牌如果現行的換照制度真的有效那為什麼行政院多次判決NCC在總天"},{"start":10926.065,"end":10944.21,"text":"跟我們報告26件處分裡頭其實很多目前NCC敗訴是7件 26件只敗訴7件其實這比例並不是這個這個某些媒體這個重複算不同審計的結果的那種結果是不一樣的"},{"start":10944.935,"end":10954.257,"text":"其實本席的問題很簡單就是如果你們沒有辦法提出一套量化然後還有客觀不看顏色的審查標準那立法院為什麼要給你們每六年一次的看守媒體的權利"},{"start":10956.278,"end":10984.958,"text":"各位报告刚刚提到退场机制其实我们NC过往其实这方面愿意申请这微信频道的目前微信频道总共有298家愿意来申请的其实如果市场的力量可以决定他要不要继续在这个场域里头这个赛道里头继续玩下去其实有些过往也有一些新闻台他申请到了可是他没有露出的平台他后来自己他也缴回执照他也不要了所以其实NC是开放的"},{"start":10985.778,"end":10997.072,"text":"那主委您認為今天委員所提出的版本這些版本的內容是完善的嗎我覺得都有可取之處但是都有觀察關注比較沒有關注到的一個面向"},{"start":10997.728,"end":11021.369,"text":"那NCC會不會也提出一個自己的版本然後再送進來委員會我們希望可以但是因為我們目前沒有委員會所以行政院的版本是沒辦法您都會提到委員人數不足的問題難道你們就不用再回去然後也自己提出一個版本嗎什麼都要等到委員數足了之後才來做嗎跟委員報告官方的對案我們是沒有但是我們幕僚座位其實都準備好了"},{"start":11022.216,"end":11044.654,"text":"那主委我們再來討論那針對媒體金流移植的問題我們一直在盯著誰持有媒體股份卻忽略了金流才是真正的控制者那學者有痛批首長的新聞幾乎都是買來的那師大的一名鍾啟輝教授也指出這是尋逐型的正媒關係那現在政府不必違法去投資媒體只要通過龐大的宣傳標案就能讓媒體變乖"},{"start":11045.715,"end":11072.291,"text":"那我們也看到這次黨團還有委員有提出修正案的版本要求強制揭露政府採購補助還有廣告的收入這可能都是切中要害的招壓金那主委剛剛也有委員提到那NCC整天查黨政軍一股都不能持有那對於政府一年砸了十幾億的預算給特定的電視台做廣編還有宣導甚至新聞置入NCC你們自己本身有沒有掌握"},{"start":11073.45,"end":11100.595,"text":"坑委報告分兩個部分政府的標案相關政府他是用採購法他依循採購法那他標案給新聞媒體新聞媒體本身其實就是政府就是預算法62條之一其實已經有規範白話來講簡單來講是說某家電視台他受政府他接到政府標案那某個政府他必須在那個政府的官網揭露說我對誰補助所以NCC都有掌握什麼"},{"start":11103.139,"end":11108.348,"text":"這個我們都有掌握我們都有掌握那請問每年政府編的宣導費有多少流入固定的媒體請主委說明"},{"start":11109.837,"end":11133.253,"text":"這個在那個主體總署的官網有統合整個東西那個別政府採購法或標出去給相關媒體在各個機關都會有官網必須要揭露這些在採購法60條之一都已經規範了另外有黨團黨團跟委員提案來徵定公開發行的義務及揭露政府標案收入NCC你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":11133.513,"end":11157.736,"text":"我們基本看法是這樣的因為該提案的是參考是有限油管法油管法的其實他是大資本然後他當初也是對土稀對一般消費者來收拾費用那跟衛管幾乎是99%是土逼他是對平台的一些處理那太陽不一樣規模不一樣營業模式也不一樣那我們覺得說是否要比照這個"},{"start":11159.178,"end":11166.018,"text":"來達到他對這個新聞品質的把關是不是符合比例原則是不是適當我們覺得這個可以討論"},{"start":11167.793,"end":11194.06,"text":"那主委您剛有提到因為規範有要揭露那是標案的履約管理那這是不是NCC的職權呢預算法裡頭要揭露是預算法的規定預算法主管機關他的規定任何政府機關他有標案給媒體來標他自己的官網要公佈這些我標出去的那些那NCC有沒有另外在做管理"},{"start":11195.502,"end":11211.055,"text":"這邊我們有做一些基本的一些觀察所以說這是不是雙標因為黨政居持股你們就說會影響媒體的獨立性可是政府用上億的標案來餵養媒體也成為媒體的衣食父母你們說你們有一些管理到底是有沒有"},{"start":11211.275,"end":11227.504,"text":"我們意思是說這一塊因為是有採購法跟預算法來把關那政府的行政要講究效能不可能因為其他機關有在做我們又重複在做一樣事情這個對民眾期待政府要有效率這邊應該是相對的必須要符合這個原則的"},{"start":11228.649,"end":11254.764,"text":"OK好謝謝主委說明那今天本席是針對換照的制度希望NCC能夠主動的來做出改革那第二針對媒體的金流那如果不揭露那就是政府的合法政治收買那也請NCC這邊也主動去了解好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱若驊委員來代理主委請回再請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":11269.335,"end":11272.956,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":11279.253,"end":11301.021,"text":"其實看我們今天很多衛光法相關的一些這個法案的一個修正其實我也是蠻感慨的因為這個第六年在立法院我們發覺事實上很多的法令原本看起來好像是夠用但是關鍵的很多留了蠻多行政材料的空間給政府"},{"start":11301.701,"end":11316.169,"text":"但我們發覺大家期待是一個公平沒有顏色的這樣的去判斷可是在過去過去有四年多的時間都在交通委員會那時候你不是主委了我們是一路炒一路炒過來"},{"start":11317.23,"end":11345.829,"text":"又發覺這中間有非常非常多偏頗之處這是我們的感受到而且有明顯的顏色除了當時的主委自己沒有感受到我們都很清楚所以這修法變成說我們期盼的公正獨立的行政裁量這一群人看不到所以只好把你原本裁量空間越縮越小我覺得這個東西是大家都會覺得我是覺得滿悲哀的"},{"start":11347.23,"end":11355.358,"text":"那你們自己去思考 但是我今天的主題我問問 按一下好不好好不好 我來談一下"},{"start":11357.935,"end":11380.436,"text":"今年開始台灣已經進入高齡化的一個社會 超高齡所以我們在看整個的一個詐欺詐騙受害人數我們65歲以下長者大概佔7.5看起來不是特別的高但是未來隨著超高齡化快速的推進"},{"start":11381.577,"end":11409.18,"text":"對於高齡化的一個詐欺的案件我覺得有必要把它單獨拿出來去看那我們來看從2022年到今年的1到9月很明顯看到在我們警政署的一個統計65歲以上詐騙被害的人數是不斷的攀高我個人認為這個幅度會不斷的去增加因為這些的長輩65歲很多都退休"},{"start":11410.001,"end":11429.555,"text":"那些退休拼了一輩子自己存了一些錢甚至有一些退休金一輩子的夢想就是好好來養老所以這邊報章特別寫這個可能會超過五兆的老人家的養老資金現在非常可能是一個詐團"},{"start":11431.616,"end":11448.122,"text":"基於的對象那這個部分我想請問一下主委你們對於這種高齡化這樣的一個趨勢這樣的一個防詐 堵詐在你們的一個作為上面你有什麼看法好 各位報告我們是在堵詐 懲詐 防詐"},{"start":11451.305,"end":11463.3,"text":"這塊事實上這邊是跨機關合作包括NCC包括內政部其實都有做相關的一些宣導包括簡訊的一些推播發送那剛剛委員提到說這個我們針對的高齡"},{"start":11466.304,"end":11479.217,"text":"族群這一塊的部分那兩年前三年前這個很多國際來化詐騙那一塊我們就用一般民眾最有感覺的方式用語音警訊IVR的方式來處理那這一塊我們施行之後這塊的國際來化來詐騙設在了立刻"},{"start":11483.243,"end":11503.801,"text":"斷言就掉下去了這邊我們都持續處理那另外我們電信業者這邊我們知道一般高齡化的人即便是他用的是功能手機那如果說他用的一些網路上的東西他其實目前普遍限制性不高但是我們有要求電信業者在他的門市裡頭在售理辦相關業務的時候"},{"start":11506.703,"end":11527.204,"text":"要如果是年輕大的就請他順便做這個市詐房詐賭詐的一些宣導也讓他們有所安心因為一般民眾我只要到了電信的門市那邊通常會有一個信任感那不管是他對櫃檯人員的相關的一些宣導還有他當地這些一些標語小冊子這些我們都來持續處理"},{"start":11529.166,"end":11548.827,"text":"主委你剛剛講了包括了你們所謂的這幾年推動的很多包括次數 件數正好你有看到我們這個審計部的一個報告一三年度預算的一個審計報告裡面特別提到就是NCC的一個部分高齡防詐的政策"},{"start":11549.668,"end":11566.347,"text":"我們審計部的報告特別講說你們還主要停留在宣導活動你們主要在我們的報告甚至過去的每一次的專案的一個部分大部分都說我有多少場次 人次教材提供哪些比較新穎的教材"},{"start":11567.128,"end":11591.056,"text":"可是我覺得審計部報告講得很有道理那對於這種投入性的指標但是真正反映這個阻攔的一個電話的次數跟阻詐的一個金額剛剛看到人數不斷的一個增加他是希望希望你們對於這些老人家可能認知能力的衰退跟他的資產過度集中能不能提供具體科技化"},{"start":11591.716,"end":11610.257,"text":"可操作的保護機制這是審計部我也覺得他說的蠻有道理那對於審計部這樣的一個問題提出來這樣一個問題你有沒有什麼解方各位報告其實審計部這塊我們的想法就是說除了宣導之外另外是減少這個高齡人口"},{"start":11611.678,"end":11636.314,"text":"炸的風險的露出的一些部位那很簡單來講那以往很多是透過簡訊那在簡訊有分成兩個部分一個是商業簡訊我們所謂的A to P那一塊我們已經在差不多一年半以前都已經開始在上路怎麼處理只要簡訊商業簡訊裡頭有網址連結的有電話號碼的一律砍一把砍掉除非說他有經過特殊認證過他是開白名單方式處理"},{"start":11636.914,"end":11652.149,"text":"那一般如果是個人詐團他打算透過一般的電話一般的電話的警訊來傳的我們也有行為模式的管制一天超過幾折了我們會把他停掉叫他回來KYC那他不敢回來通常有些東西那他就是涉詐這一塊都有來處理"},{"start":11654.171,"end":11680.681,"text":"那另外高齡的部分社債很多都也是投資剛剛陳主委員所講這一塊那我們也有跟這個跨機關來合作那透過這個社債電話部分連結到相關速發部他所小管的一些電商平臺把那些透過這些電話號碼社債電話號碼所申請到的帳號都砍掉這些我們目前都持續在做的事情好 主委好"},{"start":11681.861,"end":11709.96,"text":"我覺得現在因為蠻多的長輩還是靠電話這個工具不管是有時候家用電話雖然越來越少但是還是蠻多長者在用家用電話的第二個當然是手機所以電話的詐騙還是高齡者主要受害的媒介那我們在想能不能加諸我們現在的業者剛剛有一些方面你們已經在做了嘛國際電話來會提醒嘛有一些部分已經在做了那我們看各國這也是我們審計部"},{"start":11711.061,"end":11723.293,"text":"他列出來的主要的一個部分他就日本的部分他能夠裝防騷擾的一個設備就簡單來講事實上我們也可以打給電信公司叫他設定什麼可是對於長輩來說如果設定非常非常複雜你要撥什麼呢他們不見得會所以他特別來有這種安裝防騷擾的一個設備針對於你要"},{"start":11734.342,"end":11760.895,"text":"國際電話不明電話你要拒接或者直接設定你的電話成為語音信箱我覺得怎麼把它簡化現在看起來現在電話都有這些設備但是長輩不見得會用那當然我們看到這個澳洲的一個部分是針對一樣就剛剛講說打詐一個團隊任何人發現要及時那及時通報給友軍如果沒有及時的話會有罰則但因為我們覺得在台灣大部分是"},{"start":11761.835,"end":11784.885,"text":"主張業者自律勸導輔導這個部分那新加坡的這個部分也是有很多包括英國甚至有想說如果透過你已經認證的機制造成的詐騙業者都要去損失賠償那我想最後一個問題請教我們對於現在的一個電線業者因為他畢竟在第一線有一些作為但是在責任的部分能不能賦予他們多一點"},{"start":11785.706,"end":11800.847,"text":"有的其實這個當初國際的做法我們在當初討論當初討論的時候其實是在打造條例還沒制定前制定之後其實業者有相對的義務那打造條例17 18特定18那這一塊那如果他沒有做的話業者是會被重罰的那一樣的"},{"start":11801.368,"end":11817.263,"text":"如果一次設炸打炸條例17條跟打炸條例14條部分我們都會通知他某種程度電信業者也是我們打炸的友軍我們通知他說這個你該處理了我們以後透過這個類似的軟法透過這個修正這個定型化契約來"},{"start":11818.624,"end":11837.075,"text":"只要他針對異常的化物的部分他得停止或斷化目前都有一些在處理那另外剛剛委員提到說對高齡人要有有感的部分我們針對前一陣子很多未選好來化 試化也好我們已經要求業值明年五月以前都要做語音警示"},{"start":11838.393,"end":11865.526,"text":"好啦 我想今天最主要是我們希望能夠業者的一個責任也能夠比較國際下強化他不是順便在旁邊幫忙我們有幫忙算加分沒幫忙不扣分我覺得要加出他責任畢竟他們在第一線很多人騙東騙西騙了這麼多他也沒有被刪掉然後後面接電話沒被提醒我都覺得這是業者可以加強的請你們待會去研究會 我們會持續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":11869.568,"end":11897.827,"text":"好 謝謝盧明哲委員接下來再請翁小玲委員質詢好 謝謝主席首先我想要請這個陳代理主委主委請還有金管會今天的代表是陳湘瑩副組長嗎"},{"start":11899.981,"end":11918.55,"text":"副組長請首先要請教主委是因為本席這次提的衛廣法的修法大概涉及三個部分一個是有關於簡化 憑鑒換照的程序第二個部分就是對於違反黨政軍退出媒體的規定"},{"start":11921.372,"end":11938.83,"text":"這個修正和相關的罰則處罰對象那第三個呢就是針對於公開NCC諮詢委員會議的名單這主要是三大重點那當然就是說首先想請教就是這個違反黨政軍退出媒體的處罰規定"},{"start":11940.832,"end":11969.829,"text":"其实被诟病已久大家都知道现在的违反党政军退出媒体的处罚规定是不合理的本席要强调就是我支持党政军退出媒体可是我对于现在的规定它不是处罚那个行为人去投资的行为人而是处罚被投资很无辜的很无奈根本不知道谁投资我持有我这个媒体股份的"},{"start":11970.93,"end":11992.97,"text":"這個媒體業者所以這樣子的規定其實它就是一個錯法錯殺的規定而這個規定其實從它公佈我記得應該是2006年公佈之後開始實施之後就產生了這樣的一個問題可是我沒有看到NCC有任何作為NCC近年來有提修法嗎"},{"start":11993.877,"end":12002.066,"text":"其實我們內部都有持續在滾動檢討其實那個法案其實很早就準備好所以你們準備的方向是什麼呢你們認為是要處罰嗎還是持續的維持處罰媒體業者的規定嗎"},{"start":12010.283,"end":12024.353,"text":"一言以蔽之可休不可廢直接投資絕對禁止間接投資要有配套配套基本上就是說它不能達到實質控制沒有 主委不好意思 這個陳副主委您沒有聽懂我的意思我的意思還是說處罰要處罰誰嘛你到底是要處罰那個投資行為還是處罰"},{"start":12031.104,"end":12056.229,"text":"被投資的就是莫名其妙我也不知道到底現在誰間接直接持有我的股份結果呢你現在的規定就是處罰被投資被投資者媒體業者所以你們的修法方向是什麼呢我們修法方向剛剛跟委員報告的要配套裡頭如果業者他沒有做到假設說他間接投資的他還是有擔任董監事擔任經理人這一部分業者一樣去做那他就違反違反他就有罰則那就罰到業者了"},{"start":12057.369,"end":12078.414,"text":"就跟現行的說罰到規則對象不合理的部分就可以處理掉所以只有說是當直接投資的時候直接投資的時候然後這個業者他是擔任媒體業者的董監事這時候你們處罰不是直接投資一律不准但是直接投資是一律不准嗎先是講董監事的問題"},{"start":12080.374,"end":12098.367,"text":"今天投資如果他還是讓他去做總監事當經理人這一部分那葉子如果我們是不准的不准他今天投資的部分他代表的股權那些人不可以去控制這些公司當他的總監事當他的經理人如果他讓他去當那就違反這條對應的規定"},{"start":12099.568,"end":12122.947,"text":"我坦白說因為我們先前也講過這個間接投資你到底是要算幾成是算兩成三成還是無限成這其實都有很多的問題那麼本席擔任過NCC委員我不是不知道說這個問題的嚴重性而且最重要是說你們每一次的裁罰處分都被行政法院撤銷所以連行政法院都認為這個條文是有問題的"},{"start":12124.668,"end":12140.342,"text":"可是呢NCC已經這個這麼多年來然後你們說有修法修法我看也沒有提到這個立法院來好幾年前在交友會有討論後來也就不了了之所以本席這次提我最重要的目的就是不要錯法"},{"start":12142.321,"end":12161.406,"text":"不要挫伐媒體業者那至於就是說那你們說投資行為人誰來處罰誰來處罰請問一下NCC願意處罰嗎你們認為你們有這個權限嗎我們也認為說這邊是需要修正所以這邊的立場我們是跟委員是一致的所以我們的看法好我先要講你認為說誰是有權機關還是金管會金管會你們願不願意未來擔任"},{"start":12167.709,"end":12186.73,"text":"違反黨政軍退出媒體然後直接投資或間接投資的行為人然後你們作為他的主管機關你們對於這個違反者予以處罰這個部分金管會可能沒有辦法做這樣的一個主管機關那所以NCC你有辦法嗎"},{"start":12188.323,"end":12213.038,"text":"你們有辦法這樣去追溯他的股份然後予以處罰嗎你們願意承擔起這個責任嗎我們是認為是我們是賦予業者這個要有這個義務業者沒有做到的話是要處罰業者你要處罰你你賦予哪個業者業務嗎你現在根本就不是一般的公司行號企業的這個不是股份證券股份公司的這個主管機關嗎你要賦予他什麼義務"},{"start":12214.88,"end":12239.181,"text":"簡單來講就是這樣子假設某一家衛工業者他有間接的他有股權上有間接的黨政軍但是他還是讓他間接持有黨政軍股權的那些法輪代表也好或者各個也好去做董監事是 陳副主委我想這個問題還蠻大的但我想這個部分就請你要去再去了解不好意思可以麻煩召委再多給我一個問題的時間那麼有關於就是公開NCC"},{"start":12241.003,"end":12258.084,"text":"諮詢會議委員的名單你們認為說這樣的公開可能會影響到未來委員擔任的意願我想要問的是擔任NCC的諮詢委員平靜聲色煥躁的諮詢委員是怎麼樣是件很丟人很見不得人的事嗎"},{"start":12259.445,"end":12287.457,"text":"為什麼不能公開跟委員報告因為是過往因為兩點 第一點諮詢委員會的意見是中間過程是我們委員會做成最後最終決定前的參考意見所以它不是最終的我想要問的是說現在NCC的深色評鑑換照諮詢委員會是不是已經是明定在法條裡面它是個法定組織它是不是跟訴願委員會一樣所以訴願委員會的委員有沒有公開"},{"start":12288.888,"end":12315.709,"text":"委員會的名單有沒有公開有吧 溯源委員會的名單當然要公開啊所有的溯源委員會的名單都有公開那你為什麼明明是明訂在這個衛廣法第20條裡面就要設置這個深色評鑑換照諮詢委員會議我今天沒有說要公開你們的中間的討論過程會議記錄當然要公開中間討論過程是屬於準備程序這不需要公開"},{"start":12316.75,"end":12336.812,"text":"但是名單要公開我覺得這是一個也是負責的很重要的一個議題資訊越透明大家越對於就是諮詢委員然後認為他們具有公信力所以所做出來討論大家會尊重可是你們現在如果都不公開都是黑箱作業也難怪大家會對於NCC所做的"},{"start":12337.272,"end":12353.144,"text":"也更為補充報告其實這個案子在過往的行政訴訟裡頭其實北高行或法院也有做出一些認為說他們的名單其實不宜公開公開會讓這些委員在平時在那是因為現在法條沒有明文規定嘛我們未來法條通過的話讓他公開他當然就公開啊"},{"start":12355.505,"end":12379.499,"text":"對 所以本席是認為說你們的說法你們的論述要一致為什麼書院委員會的名單有公開然後但是你們現在的這個深色換照評鑒諮詢會議這麼重要的會議竟然委員可以不公開好 那我想這個部分的話就請主委回去再多思考好 謝謝好 謝謝翁小玲委員來 主委請回接下來再請廖先祥委員諮詢"},{"start":12391.382,"end":12394.153,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩陳代理主委代理主委請"},{"start":12399.093,"end":12424.359,"text":"文豪這個跟主委請教這個在大概兩三年前這個電信業有整合嘛有整併嘛那現在就是電信三雄那當初在整併的時候NCC有提供一些附帶條件嘛對不對那我看一下附帶條件大概有兩項是我比較關注的第一個是4G跟5G的一個涵蓋率另外一個是超標頻譜的一個繳回這兩項"},{"start":12426.92,"end":12453.626,"text":"那這個涵蓋率這個問題應該比較簡單啦大概是他們有附帶條約2027 4G要98%嘛4G要99% 5G要98%那這部分應該時間也差不多快到了 剩一年的時間這部分我們有在掌握他們目前的一個涵蓋率的嗎我們都有持續在追蹤包括當初任何這個和平案的我們要求他的相關的一些要求付款行政指導也好我們都有在追蹤"},{"start":12454.537,"end":12479.546,"text":"那就涵蓋率這部分他們有這兩家有都達標了嗎還是在努力中基本上人口涵蓋率應該都沒問題所以人口涵蓋率這兩點98%跟99%這兩點他們大概都已經達標了對好那另外一個請教就是這個另外一個比較麻煩的就是超標的一個評普那臺灣當然有大概有大概回顧一些相關的新聞有一家已經繳回了對不對"},{"start":12482.167,"end":12508.985,"text":"遠傳矯匯 另外一家台灣大哥大還在訴訟當中目前我們針對他們沒有依照附帶決議的部分我們有哪些行政處置的作為跟後續的情況 細一點我們當初應該是罰了三次待機然後他也間接就違反了網路事務計畫也罰了三次總共應該是將近好幾百萬有沒有明確一點的數字"},{"start":12509.687,"end":12522.432,"text":"好像是300萬發一次250萬發一次加起來應該是我印象中應該是有三次加起來應該是將近800萬850萬總共就是3加3總共850萬加上代金的話代金是每次30萬3次90萬加起來就900多萬"},{"start":12531.975,"end":12554.279,"text":"900多萬好那這部分因為他們有提行政訴訟對不對那行政訴訟當然這個就是訴訟之後的一個事情那這在行政訴訟的這過程當中我們還是一樣在執法當中嗎還是說你們就是等訴訟結束之後再決定怎麼做因為目前他已經繳回了他已經繳回了對OK所以就是針對過去還沒有繳回的一個部分對他當時還沒繳回錢的處罰"},{"start":12557.771,"end":12574.745,"text":"是好那這部分就是後續就是一個輸送的一個過程了那這個可能他們當初有講可能會影響一些原用戶的使用的權利的部分那不曉得他們有沒有造成一些跟原用戶的一些客戶的一些投訴或糾紛等等的"},{"start":12575.782,"end":12592.392,"text":"一開始的時候確實那個台哥大跟跟台灣之星這一塊確實一開始客訴比較多後來大概都處理好了目前大概這一部分的問題都應該算是都已經翻頁了好那接下來我在這部分好那這部分已經繳回那後續都等輸送了"},{"start":12592.932,"end":12606.957,"text":"那後續再請問一下這個今天的主題就是大家都知道這個修法的一個內容那就是我們這邊這個有一些委員的提案是主張這個修法在法院判決"},{"start":12608.958,"end":12624.748,"text":"這個確定之前他們是有這個權利的嘛對不對那這部分假設啦就是一個假設性的問題看您願不願意回答那假設法定通過了雖然說你們可能不太認同這樣子的一個論述那假設法定通過了之後那針對中天案你們會有怎樣的一個作為"},{"start":12625.819,"end":12639.269,"text":"那如果最終一切的救濟手段都確定還是通過的話那行政機關本身就是依法行政會來依法處理但是現在目前是沒辦法處理就大案子在根據我們組織法9條2項6款是"},{"start":12643.026,"end":12663.678,"text":"經營業者的經營權的得上變更需要委員會來處理那必須要搭配由委員會來處理所以主委的意思是說就是只要立法院修法通過之後那總統府也公告實施了那你們就是依照法條去做而不是而不會等到法院最後的一個判決再決定要不要附照對不對"},{"start":12665.584,"end":12678.932,"text":"也跟委員報告其實這個法律保留例外的情況其實剛剛司法院先進以後講其實一般的情況是比較很少看到的那其實目前我們國內這個例外的東西"},{"start":12679.913,"end":12704.171,"text":"我禮拜天禮拜六大概很努力的去找一下大概只有稅捐寄生法39條有的排除利用但是稅捐寄生法的排除利用其實它還是有前提的它還是要繳一部分稅款提供擔保才可以是免除被強制執行所以基本上而言這個行政訴訟法116條第一項的例外適用其實是很少很少很少的"},{"start":12704.491,"end":12714.059,"text":"沒關係 我就要確認一下我們的機關的作為而已機關的作為你們會等還是就是依照法條來做後續的作為"},{"start":12715.616,"end":12741.409,"text":"現況因為還在討論當中不是修過我們但是依法行政現在的法律長什麼樣子我們就找現在現在還是要116條現在還沒修過對不對那修過之後假設修過之後那你們會就是法律公佈之後就開始實施了那你們會一樣等法院訴訟結束之後還是說適用這個新的法就是法院還沒訴訟終結前那他還是有這個權利"},{"start":12744.437,"end":12762.053,"text":"基本上我們就是依法行政 如果會議管法修成這樣子那如果這個會議管法的法律的一些最終的它的定性是已經確定窮盡的一些救濟手段 救濟可能的想法之後就是要依法行政 依法行政怎麼處理在NC的部分必須要經過委員會議來處理"},{"start":12765.256,"end":12792.007,"text":"另外就是說請教一下那他可能有一些台的一些問題對不對假設他要復台那有一些台他目前已經是其他業者在使用了對不對我跟你講重點他目前的原來的品位現在已經有其他頻道業者在那邊所以這一塊提示涉及到第三方就是有限電視的平台那這個目前是第三方人的利益而且是商業機制的那這一塊法律上執行確實是有他的挑戰難度"},{"start":12793.027,"end":12816.208,"text":"所以這個後面就是可能是需要到協調嘛對不對原坪 原坪位 原坪到復原有些台看起來它是可能有一些挑戰的對 白話來講就是說那個房子現在已經有新的租客了那你要把新的租客請他離開這個現在保護等等這些都是一個問題而且目前它是個商業機制"},{"start":12816.929,"end":12840.435,"text":"好不好那既然我覺得就是主委我其實我還蠻尊重您在立法院的一些回覆啦那但是既然現在這個法現在已經在立法院討論當中了那討論當中有委員提的討論中就代表他可能會過他有可能過過不過這我還不知道那假設過的情況下我也希望說NCC針對假設過了之後那我們NCC可能必須要有哪一些問題需要去"},{"start":12841.215,"end":12866.207,"text":"克服或是討論或後續衍生的一些問題我也希望NCC針對後續可能的修法通過來做一些及早的一些因應會的 我們會就個人可能都會來準備好 那謝謝諸位 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝廖先生委員來 待諸位辛苦喝口水好 接下來再請張祺凱委員之選"},{"start":12884.621,"end":12905.758,"text":"來 請陳主委來 陳代主委請文豪主委 那是法治社會啦是我剛剛聽你的答詢我要給你高度的肯定你至少沒有像那個違法亂紀的那個周榮泰行政院長說立法院通過了三讀的條文不執行"},{"start":12907.281,"end":12935.256,"text":"像中天可能赴台這個題目他等於要過三個老實講他還有三關要過他有三關要過第一個當然就是今天這個修法對不對如果修法過了這是一個第二個過了以後還要行政院議員不願意做總統要不要公告第三個真的要做就是回到你剛剛講的要委員會開會對不對NCJ委員會開會要過這三關對不對不過實際上我們是一個法治社會就是叫不來就好了"},{"start":12936.584,"end":12964.797,"text":"法治社會就照法來做因為老實講這本來就是個行政救濟的一個管道對不對法院後來怎麼判過了以後立法院就修法就完全照法裡面來做好不好好OK不要又搞出一個到時候那個什麼行政院長又不依法執行這個事情好 今天談衛星廣播電視法修正這個是台灣民眾黨重中之重我早在去年的3月份就代表台灣民眾黨"},{"start":12966.328,"end":12992.628,"text":"八位委員我們就提出了修正案我們有所謂的改革三件最重要就是要公開透明整個資訊的這個揭露它所謂三支箭有就是包括衛星的電視跟廣播它都是要公開發行的要公開發行公開發行以後就會出現第二支箭了所以它的股權資訊還有它的財務的資訊對外就會揭露為什麼要有這兩個非常重要的因為老實講現在很難過的是"},{"start":12994.659,"end":13009.086,"text":"地視權 衛星電視跟廣播對國家發展影響是很大的可是現在某些電視台現在都變副業了變副業了他們肯定做了其他很多非常多的這個行業土地開發 還有去買遊樂園的"},{"start":13013.306,"end":13040.847,"text":"這是非常嚴重的這很畸形的發展在全世界的全世界民主國家很少這樣子所以我們會明確要求他必須要公開發行接受全民的監督讓他們不要再走後門讓他們善盡第四權的權利不要把第四權幫成復原去謀自己的福利這是前面兩支箭第三個也很重要就是這段時間引起非常多人過病了正媒變成一體了甚至是黨檢媒師變成一體了"},{"start":13043.035,"end":13065.854,"text":"很多的這個電視台你在看什麼他就是完全依靠政府的採購案政府的補助而且是集中在某些在某幾家說明要明定只要是對政府這個採購還有補助跟廣告這個他收入這個來源要整個全部要揭露讓全民共同來監督提這三個那我現在很具體的來問這個內容這次裡面我們先針對一個房幣的問題"},{"start":13072.114,"end":13080.125,"text":"這個新聞報導之前有報導過三立入主去經營了中佳集團"},{"start":13082.438,"end":13106.529,"text":"結果以前的NCC的主委在這邊打他說依照現行法律沒辦法沒辦法管因為他監過好幾層從母公司到子公司到孫公司弄到後來你根本就法律上沒辦法管所以這次我們在明文裡面再增加了第12條之一要求經營新聞跟財經頻道或者是自播新聞節目的"},{"start":13108.07,"end":13134.053,"text":"衛星廣播電視事業你必須依照主管機關的NCCNCC你指定的方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的相關的這個資訊要放到主管機關指定的網站跟該事業的網站上面特別是要防避我剛提的那個事情三立層層投資去躲避這個監督我們要求"},{"start":13135.214,"end":13161.242,"text":"要求申列裡面的第七款只要是主要廣告收入來源負責人 董事跟監察人 經理人跟直接或者間接他持有已經發行有表決權股份的總數只要超過十分之一以上股東的這個投資事業的他全部就要公開披露這是一個黃幣喔 解決問題啊這位有贊成申列這個條文嗎"},{"start":13164.247,"end":13180.552,"text":"這個基本原則我們是理解委員的立場跟委員補充報告委員所舉的那個例子那個個案其實我們已經處理了也罰這個MSO1440萬那剛剛委員提到的公開發行這一部分我們是不要持保留的態度為什麼"},{"start":13181.132,"end":13210.202,"text":"因為公開發錢這個你們提案是說是參照郵廣法可是郵廣法的資本規模跟它商業模式它是土C跟未廣頻道是土B這個相對是比較不同的我們會覺得說這個公開發錢這邊那現在所有的電視台都學三立然後都去宗家或者是第四台第四台做這個投資這是明文規定的可是你開了一個後門你有沒有辦法把它讀起來當然就是用這種法令用這種法令直接修法把它明定"},{"start":13211.576,"end":13231.314,"text":"你要允許繼續再發生這個事嗎再鼓勵嗎你目前只有小法對不對沒有沒有都一千多萬一千多萬一千多萬都那個電視台賺的人家要訂五天這是一個好那另外我看到你的這個書面資料裡面你特別有一直在強調說如果是採購案"},{"start":13233.426,"end":13255.462,"text":"採購案預算法上面有規定你要清楚看一下我們的條文好不好我們的條文是你要制定一個你指定的一個方式在每年的6月30號之前將前一年度的資訊第一個是要公開揭露在你NCC指定的一個網站另外他們該事業例如說如果是三立或者民視或TBS他自己也要公布好不好"},{"start":13256.362,"end":13275.551,"text":"好 這個也跟委員補充報告 採購這個預算法60條之一他是要求做兩件主要資訊公開的事情 第一個假設A機關開一個採購案給某家電視台去得標了 那A機關必須在他的官網裡頭去揭露說我這一塊的資訊揭露 另外"},{"start":13276.751,"end":13300.307,"text":"這個一樣是預算法60條之一也要求這個主地總署那邊的官網也要同步揭露就是兩個地方的資訊已經在揭露了我們這個修法裡面明定的是三個一塊是採購 一個是補助 一個是廣告這三個都是要揭露的 好不好那更重要的是你剛剛提的預算法裡面某部分做的這個做的公佈之後還不夠完整所以我們才訂了這個條文 好不好"},{"start":13301.147,"end":13328.317,"text":"那我今天非常鄭重的要求 主委今天有好幾個立法委員跟我們台灣民眾黨的黨團都已經提出了修正案了你剛剛有提說你們有在討論對不對我們黨政軍部分有什麼時候可以提出行政院院版跟委員報告 很抱歉因為這個重大政策是需要委員會通過那目前NCC沒有委員會所以院版 官方的版本對案是比較沒有辦法提出來的"},{"start":13329.147,"end":13344.802,"text":"所以你剛剛就講說你沒有在研究嘛那要過的就是委員對啊 那NCC委員就叫這行政院長總裁趕快提啊趕快提啊他不是只有財務法不依法行政該提的人士他不提啊前委會也不提 NCC也不提"},{"start":13346.141,"end":13368.333,"text":"阿賴總統大跑關也不提他貪玩整個國家是不是你們如果是真的需要NCC委員要通過的話請盡快趕快去跟那個賴清德講跟那個卓中泰講趕快把NCC的人事提不只要趕快提跟時間賽跑要趕快提影響太大了第二個提出全民可以接受的專業性過的獨立性過的要不然 諸位"},{"start":13369.193,"end":13383.664,"text":"NCC以前本來形象不錯所以這幾年搞到變成政治打手了趕快提出大家全民可以接受的人選趕快讓NCC的形象可以更好加油啦我們適當實際反應 謝謝委員好 謝謝張啟凱委員謝謝 待會主委請回再請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":13399.333,"end":13424.646,"text":"是主席 有請代理主委陳代理主委請文豪代理主委好台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的衛廣法修正其實主要的目的就是要促進特別是在掌握新聞台的媒體他們股權 經營資訊跟接受政府補助的公開化"},{"start":13427.068,"end":13451.377,"text":"剛剛執行的張慶愷委員也跟你提過非常具體明確的例子十幾年前我們早就設下了一個反媒體壟斷的紅線新聞台不可以牽引系統台這件事情是非常清楚的前面的潛力很多幾年以前我公開檢舉過就是三立入股重價"},{"start":13453.625,"end":13480.005,"text":"剛剛你在上面大言不慚的說你們已經處理了怎麼處理的當初如果不是有吹哨者把裡面最核心的契約交出來你們有辦法處理嗎你們根本沒有辦法處理啊我有說錯嗎沒有錯對啊當初花了多少力氣啊去說服那個吹哨者啊"},{"start":13482.625,"end":13502.751,"text":"把他們建民的契約交出來這件事情才有辦法處理如果不是這個樣子的話你怎麼知道我們當初在反媒體壟斷的時候強調一件事情你要掌控一個媒體就先掌控他的所有權所以才會有各式各樣的紅線以現在的狀況來講有線電視系統"},{"start":13511.769,"end":13537.219,"text":"民意上面背後真正的是哪一個有限系統大亨我老實說啦NCC如果沒有掌握狀況那是NCC的失職但這件事情我另外再找時間來請教你們為什麼要股權公開透明道理就在這裡嗎剛剛你還大言不慚的說說後來有處理要處理中加有處理三立嗎"},{"start":13539.589,"end":13554.723,"text":"有一併處理那有請他就是相應配合勸告他以後不要這樣幹了還是勸告他以後技術好一點你有處理三立嗎有嗎相對於宗家是比較沒有在處理"},{"start":13555.706,"end":13574.178,"text":"相對於仲家比較 沒有就沒有嘛沒有處理就大聲說沒有嘛畏畏縮縮的接下來再看繼續往下看這是我問過的題目2024年檢調偵辦炸雞集團發現有一個王牌交易所"},{"start":13575.435,"end":13601.032,"text":"大的詐欺犯罪組織哇 厲害三立旗下的公司入股裡面其中的一個宣傳公司而這個宣傳公司設置的地點就在三立集團大樓這是一個幫詐欺集團在三立大樓裡面成立的洗錢公司三立還不是只有把辦公室租給他們三立還直接入股"},{"start":13602.691,"end":13625.462,"text":"他出40%啊這王牌交易所下面的詐欺犯罪組織出60%啊合資在三立大樓裡面設一個洗錢公司啊上一次2024年的時候夏天我問了陳耀祥說會去了解要去調查然後呢"},{"start":13626.892,"end":13649.19,"text":"跟我們報告現在那家公司已經解散了是然後呢解散就算了然後他跟那些相關的合作案其實也終止了節目也沒有再播出了所以從NCC的角度上面來講就沒有需要處理了嗎那我們會持續檢視他有沒有其他違法的事實有的話我們一樣會依法你還要去檢視其他違法的事實喔"},{"start":13650.083,"end":13679.138,"text":"我們當初在強調新聞媒體的時候新聞媒體的負責人媒體負責人的資格性是不是NCC要審查的對象是嗎是是啊而且那不是一開始的時候才要檢視那是持續性的義務耶那我現在來啦我現在問題來啦投資設立洗錢公司的有媒體經營者的資格性嗎"},{"start":13680.619,"end":13697.559,"text":"跟委員報告那個是在我們的法律規定是說他的效率資格如果他有涉及相關形式或有什麼相關的被判刑的話我跟代理主委報告啦你回去複習一下當初在推動媒體改革的時候不要說以今天2025年的標準啦"},{"start":13699.963,"end":13704.169,"text":"以2012年的標準現在講這種話都很丟臉啦2012年的時候那麼多傳播學者出來倡議媒體改革反媒體壟斷我們在討論媒體經營者的資格性"},{"start":13715.889,"end":13739.857,"text":"是用你今天在那邊講的消極資格的標準喔那是最起碼的對啊 那我現在問題就來了嘛按照你剛剛的說法解散了啊接下來就看他有沒有在做其他的詐騙洗錢行為就好啦那另外跟委員補充報告這麼消極的態度喔他當初合作部分有沒有涉及接廣部分我們其實已經在處理到到相關這個節目廣告諮詢會已經處理完畢"},{"start":13743.137,"end":13768.778,"text":"那處理完畢的結論是什麼因為後續還要提委員會議處理現在沒有委員會議所以現在你們的諮詢會議結論是要怎麼處理不能講因為就是程序中的那而且是個案沒關係啦這件事情我會持續追啊就看你們接下來要怎麼處理嘛更離譜的事情是什麼去年我們在審預算的時候做假新聞啊"},{"start":13770.563,"end":13797.998,"text":"說藍白立委刪除體育署11億的預算事實上僅3減10萬6200元這一部分我們也進行到節目廣告諮詢會議然後呢聽清楚啊然後呢三立後來發聲明說這個是依據事實呈現我的老天啊徹頭徹尾的假訊息說是依據事實呈現"},{"start":13799.793,"end":13818.182,"text":"然後說這是時間差不是假新聞我只有個最簡單的問題啦你講的時間差是哪一個時間差在哪一個時間點曾經存在31億的預算你告訴我從來沒有然後推說時間差"},{"start":13820.556,"end":13844.126,"text":"1月17號禮拜五我們就處理通案提案了他的新聞什麼時候出來的他的新聞是1月19號出來的1月15號已經處理完了處理完了以後鋪天蓋地的假新聞假訊息告訴全台灣人民說我們塞了體育署11億的預算這是嗜讀能力有問題嗎還是數學有問題"},{"start":13851.431,"end":13874.998,"text":"徹頭徹尾的假訊息我公開質問三立新聞講清楚什麼時候要道歉推說時間差來來來 我給你看更離譜的三立開了新聞自律委員會結果說失誤在所難免這種自律標準 主委你滿意嗎他說失誤在所難免"},{"start":13877.475,"end":13886.92,"text":"這是假訊息 這不是失誤所有時間差我再問一次在哪一個時間點曾經存在我們刪了體育署11億"},{"start":13889.485,"end":13913.7,"text":"在哪一個時間點有出現過這個狀況沒有啊省預算是動態進行這個我了解動態進行如果有不同的提案在那個動態當中我都可以接受那問題是什麼第一個從來沒有任何一個時間點出現31億第二個新聞報導出來的時候通案提案早就解決完了只塞了10萬塊結果變成31億第三個綠媒"},{"start":13919.269,"end":13936.784,"text":"集團性的操作鋪天蓋地污蔑在野黨的立委然後呢要求三立給個交代還發聲明罵我們說這是時間差然後他們自己的新聞自立委員會說失誤在所難免"},{"start":13938.001,"end":13961.509,"text":"主委你認同嗎這部分我們都已經在程序上已經進入節目廣告諮詢委員會那後續委員會成立之後我們會做最終的一些決定很好 委員會成立以後那就拜託代理主委啊回去跟卓榮泰講缺額的趕快提來回去跟卓榮泰講啊缺額的趕快提來啊"},{"start":13963.442,"end":13988.229,"text":"我們是44G來跟行政院這方面來反映所以現在卓榮泰的態度是什麼反正我先癱瘓委員會行政院院長帶頭癱瘓NCC所以這些案子就通通不用處理沒有辦法處理卓榮泰在下好大的一盤棋看為觀止謝謝韋好 謝謝黃國昌委員 代理主委請回"},{"start":13995.418,"end":14022.655,"text":"好 接下來再請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席 各位委員有請主委來 陳代理主委請 謝謝委員好"},{"start":14023.294,"end":14049.13,"text":"好 主委好 這個我們過去NCC然後又從NCC分出了成立了非常大的部 速發部比這個NCC還大 人力還比較多吧人力預算都比我們多對 預算非常的多"},{"start":14050.253,"end":14078.107,"text":"然後人力職員 業聘僱人員非常非常的多然後所謂的打詐國家隊結果我們的詐欺案件越來越高經費增加了這麼多人力增加了這麼多法律也制定了 也修正了"},{"start":14081.576,"end":14102.916,"text":"這個從一個 主委 你因為你是公務員出身過期在中華電信 也在過去的交通部油電師也在這個國家通訊傳播委員會 任職多年所以這個部分"},{"start":14104.338,"end":14133.136,"text":"要真的是要怎麼樣去解決這些問題這個雖然你現在是代理我們應該要設法怎麼去解決這樣的一個目前的現況當然最重要的政府機關的體制怎麼樣能夠運作然後當然很重要的就是人民人民"},{"start":14134.79,"end":14158.996,"text":"不要被這個詐欺案件相關的這些財損不斷的增加你看從2020到現在到2024這是去年的這個金額都不斷的攀升怎麼樣去想這些方法所以這個我有時候因為正好速發部要成立的時候我是很"},{"start":14160.351,"end":14170.877,"text":"很反對的 那當時沒辦法那時候民進黨在立法院絕對多數 他要通過就通過了結果一點績效都沒有這個"},{"start":14174.796,"end":14195.311,"text":"跟我們報告其實這個打架是打架國家對局相關機關五個行政機關大概是相互合作那數位部這邊其實也非常的努力那我們跟他NCC跟他其實也有合作上的一些關係就比方說剛剛也前面有跟前奧委員答覆比方說我們把社債號碼也會"},{"start":14197.972,"end":14218.842,"text":"轉資給他們然後就他所管的這個電商平台社交平台上的一些帳號虛位的帳號做一些處理那過去在通訊軟體大概零三除掉四萬多因為不只是NCC還有這個速發部還有公平教育委員會"},{"start":14220.536,"end":14248.46,"text":"都有關係啊所以這個部分這個真的我自己看了也是很無奈啊到底是怎麼一回事增加了這麼多的人力增加了這麼多的經費法也制定了結果呢你看看現在最新的消息炸團都跑到國軍而且在馬祖馬防部你看看"},{"start":14249.962,"end":14277.72,"text":"這麼嚴重所以這個部分真的是一個作為一個公務員出身的我也是公務員出身所以我們怎麼樣去解決這些問題都要加油了好 我們已經請同仁去跟打架指揮中心來聯繫看看我們哪邊可以著力來處理的部分最後 這個我已經提了很久中華民國的法例什麼時候變成"},{"start":14279.44,"end":14293.398,"text":"有限廣播電視法第45條這是你主管的嘛是有限廣播電視法第45條105年1月6號在馬英九執政的最後一年"},{"start":14294.557,"end":14323.471,"text":"前文修正然後特別提到系統經營者因每年按當年營業額1%之金額提繳至中央主管機關也就是NCC成立之特種基金這裡面第一款第二項的第一款30%本來是中央主管機關統籌應用有限廣播電視普及發展還有地方政府"},{"start":14324.377,"end":14347.691,"text":"很重要的就是說百分之三十監政財長法人公共電視文化事業基金會前項第三款是停止實施日期由行政院定制各位報告這部分我們都有持續在徵詢這個文化部的一些意見主委我已經聽得M變了文化部文化部問題是文化部"},{"start":14349.285,"end":14376.768,"text":"他就不提啊我也執行過文化部啊當時的主任委員現在是行政院副院長啊我都執行過啊所以這個部分你看像這樣的一個你看我們這個我們就講公司跟財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會的預算的比較這是114年度的你看差距那麼大"},{"start":14380.464,"end":14405.255,"text":"對不對公司近年大概業務上有新增加台灣Plus跟公司兒少台所以他的所管轄的事項也不是這樣多啦也不應該差距那麼多你知道我們原住民族有幾族嗎16族16族的語言我們的記者都要到全省了我們有50%"},{"start":14408.49,"end":14437.096,"text":"自己在都會區在沿鄉也有40%將近50%一半一半所以要跑全台灣的公視都是就是來立法院而已他們的記者就是來立法院而已我們雖然還要到偏鄉都會區我們有16族的語言現在還要加什麼還要加平埔平埔有族群他已經法律通過了平埔原住民"},{"start":14438.072,"end":14459.459,"text":"也是十幾族呢所以這個部分這個我們會持續配合行政院不是配合啦因為法律寫行政院定制啊 行政院叫我們你們要簽啊 法 主管機關法律是 你是法律的主管機關你要簽報給行政院啊對不對好 我們後續會來持續處理好 謝謝好 謝謝偉好 謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":14469.429,"end":14496.022,"text":"今天都是要問代理主委好 接下來再請優浩委員質詢代理主委可以先喝個水那謝謝召委 那有請主委好 來陳代理主委請優委員好"},{"start":14496.914,"end":14513.793,"text":"好 那代理主委好那延續剛才鄭天才委員所提到的有限電視法第45條其中30%的部分是中央40%的部分是回到地方縣市政府另外30%是給基金使用那在南投縣的話也有產聯這個優等獎"},{"start":14515.675,"end":14530.555,"text":"那我想要救救一下主委那當然在南投縣他都是以這個集集大山的電視轉播站他也來去做這個訊號的發射那來協助南投縣的有線電視相關的一個普及包括在偏鄉的部分那可以解決這個數位落差的問題"},{"start":14531.696,"end":14557.127,"text":"那另外我想要就教一下主委那另外在中央的30%那對於提升南投偏鄉的部分有做出什麼樣具體的內容嗎可以舉今年為例我們負責30%部分主要是做一些這個依據油管法規定做一些普及有限的普及還有特別是離島的一些不經濟地區一些補助那還有一些獎勵這個"},{"start":14558.948,"end":14573.773,"text":"有限電視業者地方頻道的一些製作那目前這邊都有在持續處理這些大方向的我清楚但是那這30%的話對於今年南投線有特別提升了些哪些或是數位落差的問題解決嗎直接針對南投線在今年講就可以"},{"start":14575.578,"end":14592.238,"text":"好 那南投縣的部分 那屬於我們NCC的部分 我們有有給當地的業者有做有200多萬的一些 請他們做一些這個相關這個寬頻補給 4K計算盒的鋪設這些這些那除了這個之外 還有其他嗎"},{"start":14593.433,"end":14613.295,"text":"其他的因為我們未來新制度有針對偏向會得額外的去挖出一塊然後跟根據全台灣地區的偏向的比例來做一些分配那未來如果南投線這邊應該是會相對會有比較多的一些資源基金方面的部分有沒有針對南投線做出什麼樣的一個貢獻或是內容"},{"start":14614.836,"end":14629.651,"text":"當地有限電視業者應該製作好幾部的地方有地方特色的一些地方文化的一些影片好 那還是把這個部分近三年度有關於相關的這些相關影片的清單也提供給本席辦公室"},{"start":14631.051,"end":14650.899,"text":"本身還是希望就是說在偏鄉的話通訊跟數位落差相對是較為嚴重那在地方的縣市政府確實也有在這個部分來去照顧弱勢族群但是在中央的部分希望這30%的部分還是花在刀口上也確實協助地方來做改善"},{"start":14651.559,"end":14673.349,"text":"那除了剛才200多萬來補助地方的有錢電視業者那當然地方的有錢電視業者確實也是用心在經營啦這個因為也就那麼一家那但是總是希望還在這個解決南投偏鄉的這個部分還能夠更為有效普及因為在各種的一個情況發生的時候那都是一種管道"},{"start":14674.525,"end":14694.052,"text":"是跟我們報告在通信的部分那因為主改之後電信普及服務目前已經為出發部管理但是在相關的一些基地台的偏遠地區的一些基地台的建設那當初業者合併案的時候我們都要求在偏鄉要廣為部件那這邊他們都有在處理"},{"start":14695.732,"end":14712.391,"text":"因應極端氣候的部分那偏鄉地區的高抗災基地台我們這邊都有持續在關注讓偏鄉地區讓抑制災的地區都能夠有相應的一些防一些因應準備這我知道那同樣的本席要就交到主委那在目前在賴清德總統他提到了"},{"start":14712.952,"end":14725.185,"text":"就是不管是要對美投資10兆或者是在軍購的部分要購買這1兆2500億那這個有沒有排擠到中央政府總預算或者是NCC的相關經費"},{"start":14727.149,"end":14750.746,"text":"因為基於主席總書要求各機關編列是臨機預算那也會參考前一年的一些決算情形目前大致上對NCC這邊是相對還可以還沒有特別的一些影響好那同樣的這本冊子不知道主委你有沒有看過有我們家裡都有收到對那你有沒有NCC有沒有參與這個冊子相關的一個編列或是相關的會議"},{"start":14751.947,"end":14771.664,"text":"沒有直接參與但是有有有間接協同開會那你把這本冊子打幾分我覺得大家都是敬意求親應該應該應該都不會不會說應該都不會說就滿足啦應該會希望會越來越好那我直接跟這位主委講這本冊子第一頁就列著賴清德賴總統"},{"start":14772.785,"end":14788.797,"text":"他也明示了2027他也預期了兩岸的話會有戰爭的風險那在NCC對於目前來講有限電視的傳播在地方的普及如何能夠在相關的緊急情況發生的時候有做了各種準備"},{"start":14790.556,"end":14818.235,"text":"有線電視在緊急情況的角色其實在過往SARS或者COVID-19的時候都有我們會有那頻道徵用在跑馬燈這邊會有處理那特別時期的話其實在某些頻道可以特別去類似的提供使用像公視那我們每年的災防者都有在演練不管是戰爭風險或者是重大的這種天災的時候有辦法確保這個有線電視的傳播大家收訊都還是能夠正常嗎"},{"start":14819.077,"end":14840.496,"text":"跟委員報告在結構在技術上有限的東西其實它沒有腳不會跑其實相對風險比較高它只要把機房炸了大概相對就它的韌性就沒那麼強當然有限電視也有部分會用一些無線來傳輸來處理比方說它的頭端是接收衛星頻道訊號但是它到家戶那邊其實都是走有限的"},{"start":14841.577,"end":14849.39,"text":"在這樣子的一本手冊的編列那NCC有開過相關的會有參與過這本手冊編列或是相關的會議嗎"},{"start":14850.564,"end":14875.275,"text":"相關會議都是跨部會在參與是主委參加嗎是我們相關同仁去參加所以主委你對這個會議討論的內容其實並沒有實際參與我個人是沒有實際參與但是他們參加會議都會回來報告我們大概只知道說在重要時刻緊急時刻的一些通訊上無線是比較保有韌性無線包括天上的就是衛星"},{"start":14876.135,"end":14893.303,"text":"那同樣的就是說這本手冊歸這本手冊那在假如賴清德總統他預言了2027年的時候那在各種一個任性的準備或是緊急狀況的一個準備在目前NCC有沒有參加過任何一場會議除了這個之外"},{"start":14894.222,"end":14920.242,"text":"相關任性的會議我們都有持續在配合相關單位的召集都有參加那所以說除了NCC到時候跑馬燈的功能之外還有其他的相關的方案嗎主要都是涉及在電信通訊這邊的部分就是緊急情況之後如何這個漫遊如何讓這個最大的訊息能夠通訊的量重要的軍情指揮體系能夠保持暢通"},{"start":14921.963,"end":14939.302,"text":"那個總是希望能夠強化所以說這個部分大致上還是希望能夠精進那另外剛才洪孟凱委員他稍微有提到的這個靜電視跟陳水扁合開的節目的部分那這個部分主委有沒有要補充呼籲的"},{"start":14941.047,"end":14968.358,"text":"就是現行這件事他是不能夠開這個政論節目那如果他有開因為這個是目前是說明年會有這個可能會發生那如果他發生的話我們會就來處理那我們也跟相關業者來提醒說他目前是沒有辦法來開政論節目他當然有來跟我們申請政論節目但是我們現在沒有委員會也沒辦法處理所以他有來申請政論節目嗎"},{"start":14969.258,"end":14984.319,"text":"有 營運計畫申請變更說他要開正宗節目好 那最後我要補充問一下主委就是目前全台灣的審查制度啊那NCC的相關的諮詢委員會的委員有沒有向社會大界公告過"},{"start":14985.47,"end":15012.77,"text":"目前是沒有那為什麼不公開因為依據政府諮詢公開法他的諮詢委員只是提供NCC委員會議審議相關案件的提供參考建議他是政府機關做成一致諮詢的資訊像環評委員就可以公開促參委員也可以公開 書院委員也可以公開大學評鑑委員也可以公開那為什麼就NCC的這個諮詢委員他就沒有辦法公開"},{"start":15013.47,"end":15031.838,"text":"委員會這個我有研究過這個環評委員會他的決議其實有一定的拘束力那任何重大建設案環評委員會不同意的他絕對不能override他說我就是要照做不行那我們NCC諮詢節目廣告諮詢會深色憑借換照的諮詢會議的他是純粹跟NCC委員會"},{"start":15033.379,"end":15061.078,"text":"所以今天來講在這個諮詢委員會的NCC的相關審查中他反而更是要跟社會大界公開更應該讓社會大界能夠了解那其他的部會他有辦法做到這個地步那為什麼NCC他沒有辦法公開這個資訊那其實本席還是建議就是說這個部分的話希望針對這個公開的諮詢委員的部分也一樣給交通委員會一個相關的一個"},{"start":15063.139,"end":15079.412,"text":"討論的報告因為這個部分諮詢委員本來他的獨立性他就應該可受檢驗那在今天在討論這個就是黨軍軍退出媒體的部分那我們連諮詢委員我們都沒有辦法去了解裡面的成員那如何能夠做到利益迴避"},{"start":15079.972,"end":15106.38,"text":"那我坦白講這種東西也不應該是黑箱也不應該是不可以讓大家所知道應該是要可受社會公平可以公開檢驗所以本席還是會認為在這樣子的一個資訊委員應該要公開那同時不公開的理由我坦白講也是要用書面的部分送交交通委員會讓各委員參考那這個問題可以持續來在委員會做探討因為我坦白講社會各界應該是希望"},{"start":15106.86,"end":15126.415,"text":"他的諮詢委員的獨立性是可受公平尤其是我們在討論黨政軍推出媒體這些委員應該要能夠經得起考驗好 我們會把報告準備好給交通委員會好 謝謝有報委員 謝謝委員來 代理主委請回好 接下來請賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":15130.626,"end":15145.06,"text":"那我們宣告一下交通委員會我們因為還有9位委員那我們就讓他執行完畢所以我們這相關官員大家辛苦謝謝主席及各位先進有請我們的陳代理主委陳代理主委請"},{"start":15150.751,"end":15179.387,"text":"那委員午安你午安喔我就請教很簡單的問題很重要很簡單的問題今天我們主席啊拍這個題目非常好就是好幾個委員有提的這個這個廣電法衛星廣電法的修正案衛星廣電法的修正案那有人講說這些案子如果通過中天是不是可以復台是不是"},{"start":15181.08,"end":15205.018,"text":"就目前的條文的話目前係數對關係條件符合的目前大概就是委員所提的就是如果我們今天的條文這個通過的話中間可以附台對不對這是一個另外一個是如果法院判決你們一路輸到底他也可以附台啊"},{"start":15206.93,"end":15222.708,"text":"这个就地程序其实相关的电视台个案上的电视台他已经做过了在行政诉讼法116条第二项第三项都有规定那案官的那个案的那电视台他已经采取这个行动了只是法院都给他比较驳回的一些处理"},{"start":15223.757,"end":15250.435,"text":"法院最好還沒有final啦我們看一下中天當初被關新聞台被關講四大原因什麼申訴太多啦內控的問題啦新聞自播受不當的干擾啦中天所提的意見不能夠具體的改善等等四大 你們發的新聞稿 四大理由其實這四大理由我敢說可以apply到現在綠美的每一家電視台他們沒有干預嗎"},{"start":15253.891,"end":15281.764,"text":"我也不相信了顏色那麼的清楚立場那麼的鮮明怎麼沒有干預所以如果用這個角度來看當時候做出中立新聞官台到底是一個政治判決政治決定就是NCC變成扼殺新聞自由言論自由的筷子手NCC自甘墮落變成東廠"},{"start":15283.685,"end":15311.284,"text":"變這個樣子 你聽我講完先不要急因為這個大法官解釋689號也講得很清楚啊新聞自由啊所以我們就委員提出來要要換照除非有什麼條件否則應該准予換照為原則這個立場你接受嗎准予換照為原則 你接受嗎為了保障新聞自由"},{"start":15311.984,"end":15335.526,"text":"跟委員報告 我們是建議說這是要整體配套來看那因為換照本身是會讓是要保證 是要確保這個新聞頻道的節目品質本於專業來播送那如果說換照這邊鬆了這是結構性管制這邊鬆的話那其實結構管制那一邊其實要對應 要相應的一些相應調整處理所以你還是要繼續嚴格喔"},{"start":15337.107,"end":15351.214,"text":"這個你沒有這麼大的權力喔如果今天修法通過的話你沒有這麼大的權力喔你現在想要握住那個權力喔不是 這個本來為了維護身分自由就是應該准你換照除非他犯了很大的錯誤"},{"start":15352.415,"end":15374.184,"text":"我們委員有提案啦除非這個九次以下 九次以上除非罰款累計罰款五百萬以上但是那個罰款都是要確定等於是確定之後等於法院確定之後這裡面大家可以告來告去的那我就請教你啊你們到現在為止啊 庭審啊"},{"start":15376.826,"end":15389.677,"text":"有的一次官司可能三次庭審 四次庭審 五次庭審你們26拜耶 你們一次拜各位報告那是重複計算不同審級的一審二審那其實如果以中判來看的話"},{"start":15391.104,"end":15416.222,"text":"案關電視台26件採取案目前是兩件海調輸送當中24件已經確定24件裡頭有7件NCC是敗訴另外17件裡頭是已經確定的11件NCC勝訴6件是那家電視台沒有提送其實論比例的話我們NCC目前敗訴的只有7件我請問你NCC你明年度編了多少預算要打罐師600多萬"},{"start":15418.742,"end":15428.611,"text":"各位報告 六百多元是包括其他電信領域的還有法律事務費 包括要請專家協職的因為它是掛在產業心理訴訟的這個還要給你錢來當筷子手是不是各位報告 我們也有還包括電信的來 我現在問你就是說你剛剛講的是不是 我要確定一下"},{"start":15441.451,"end":15449.139,"text":"或者修法通過或者行政院最後 不是 司法院法院最後判定讓中天可以復台 這兩條路對吧"},{"start":15451.948,"end":15474.461,"text":"好 那如果是這樣 譬如說我們修法通過了 請問可以直接赴台嗎 還是要經過你們委員會要經過委員會 而且赴台如果說照黨團的版本的話 要回到原來的平位這邊是有極大的困難度 因為那是跟有限電視做商業協商 那是商業機制 是第三方人的利益"},{"start":15474.881,"end":15493.576,"text":"這邊NCC不是一個行政機關說我要永運電視請你把原來的房客找回來把現在的房客請走這個不是這麼容易處理的所以也就是說用百萬文講中天新聞如果即便復台他不可能在50號台這樣對吧難度很大"},{"start":15496.707,"end":15511.564,"text":"你會講不可能嗎對 幾乎不可能幾乎不可能換一個主委可能就可能了不是 因為他現在52台的你不可能 換別人就可能了因為52台的涵蓋率只有75% 還有25%52台現在收視率這麼低啊你有沒有看 華氏經營不好啊"},{"start":15516.229,"end":15532.932,"text":"他是公廣集團會以公廣集團的使命為主所以他相關的製作上的取向的風格就很清楚嘛這個把中天新聞趕走由民進黨政府的手伸進來公廣集團伸進來就變這個樣子啊所以我要奉勸這個代理主委你這個"},{"start":15540.794,"end":15561.265,"text":"我還是希望你能夠維持新聞自由能夠採取跟歐美先進國家一樣對於新聞台要低密度管理低密度管理原則要核准NC一直都擁護新聞自由哪裡有 陳耀祥你們以前的主委筷子手一個是不是我們來看我們希望立法院能夠順利的修法通過讓仲天可以赴台"},{"start":15570.109,"end":15586.615,"text":"我覺得中天互打的意義非常大就是代表我們新聞自由被殘害有撥亂反正的那麼一天我覺得這是有一定是意義的謝謝謝謝委員來 謝謝賴世鮑委員來 待會請回接下來請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員發言楊瓊英委員不在徐富奎委員請質詢"},{"start":15605.945,"end":15629.095,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們陳代理主委陳代理主委請 謝謝主委午安 辛苦了我想這一次這個衛星廣播電視法的修法當然我看剛剛在野黨的委員那也挖了很多陷阱題這個要讓主委跳 主委要小心"},{"start":15630.395,"end":15650.892,"text":"這個我想不管是庭審也好甚至我們合理編合法編列的一個預算我想這個不是針對特定媒體在處理那所以我想這次的修法也引起社會高度的一個關注那這個版本的修訂我想可以討論但是不能被質疑成幫特定媒體來量身解套的一個問題那"},{"start":15652.853,"end":15673.388,"text":"我們看了一下這次修法的內容裡面 包含換照朝準的原則推進 第二個將原本裁量的審查標準直接寫死 第三個撤照後仍然可以繼續營運直到所有的救濟結束 第四個部分條文還帶有溯及既往的一個效果"},{"start":15674.068,"end":15694.158,"text":"我想這些的條文的修正真的讓外界高度的質疑真的是在幫業者特定的業者來做解套那所以我想諸葦本身是公務體系出身我們要求公務體系就是要依法行政那甚至我們在這個制度面上也應該要有這樣的一個堅持跟諸葦認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":15696.44,"end":15713.242,"text":"認同那其實一般的一般的通念常理都認為說個案式立法是比較不適合那他的對公共利益上他是侷限於特定的個案特定的一個小小的集合群體的話其實是一般是認為是不應該做個案式的立法"},{"start":15714.324,"end":15737.561,"text":"所以我想 主委 這個修法如果讓監理機關的財量空間從此被壓縮到最低那我們的審查是不是會失去公信力那甚至我們的監理應該保有一個基本的一個審查的一個界線不要這個修法讓外界產生這個立法干預個案的一個疑慮 主委到目前為止前面十幾個委員 您自己有什麼看法"},{"start":15738.722,"end":15761.86,"text":"我們看法大概跟我們報告上一樣就是三權分立那如果立法權這邊會侵蝕這個行政機關的一些權限處理的話那也順便把行政訴訟法116條這個司法權這邊也給去侵蝕的話我們是覺得這邊的分際要如何拿捏其實應該可以好好的討論"},{"start":15762.66,"end":15787.384,"text":"那畢竟這個這個116條 行政訴訟法116條第一項的這些例外情況是相當相當相當的少幾乎是沒有所以我想我們行政機關跟立法機關我們應該互相尊重那當然我們立法院必須要監督行政院這是我們的職責但是主委也應該要堅守我們的原則那另外我想我還是要特別再提到我們屏東的一個高抗災紀律台的一個部分"},{"start":15788.364,"end":15815.617,"text":"這個從去年我上任之後我一直在追這個案子那尤其屏東縣過去因為這個我們極端氣候的影響颱風這個豪雨會造成我們一個通訊的一個問題那尤其我們很多的一些偏鄉包含原鄉的部分我們很需要這個很有力的一個很強大的一個通訊的一個系統來做一個救災的一個處理所以那這部分我記得我上次也特別提過那目前就屏東的這個基地台部件的進度來講"},{"start":15816.377,"end":15845.613,"text":"目前我們有沒有什麼最新的一個進度有但我們在2014年下半年其實在今年年底應該會再完成至少三個高抗災基地台在林邊跟在牡丹那邊那過去幾年我們都有持續在委員的指導之下這個高抗災基地台都有持續在屏東這邊都有持續增加在全國各地的偏鄉或醫治災地區我們都有持續來跟督導業者來做一些相應的一些部署部件"},{"start":15847.173,"end":15872.021,"text":"主委當然我知道這個要建置高抗災基地台也有一些相關的一些要件包含我們這個整個光纖微波衛星還有要有72小時的倍元的一個電力甚至要耐15級以上的一個強風那最重要我們覺得可以結合一些我們公有的一些建築設施能夠增設這個基地台我想針對這部分不是只有屏東應該是我們全台很多的"},{"start":15872.461,"end":15893.374,"text":"一些地方應該都要做這樣全面性的一個來建置檢討 所以這部分應該能不能加快進度有 我們像公有建物提供的話我們推動以來大概全國有819個點這個公家機關來提供當然這個最積極 配合度最高是交通部所屬的郵局等等 因為"},{"start":15893.934,"end":15919.271,"text":"以前是在電總時期在推電總當年是在交通部下面所以交通部所屬機關配合度最高今年在丹納斯之後相關經濟部體系的或台電的相關變電所需我們都有在處理目前大概應該會有至少兩個就是嘉義的中嘉跟雲林的水林那邊都有應該已經是完工了"},{"start":15920.131,"end":15947.657,"text":"那蓄電所部分屏東這邊委員所在地的訪僚那邊也有兩個站點我們會來規劃來建置處理主委我想這個屏東要建置的地方真的是很多啦那我們希望我們一個月之內是不是NCC把我們屏東縣可以建置的一些地點包含可行性的評估的部分能不能把這個說明資料給本席這邊是沒問題我們會儘快準備"},{"start":15948.237,"end":15968.875,"text":"我想這個一定要趕快超前部署尤其我們面臨這個極端氣候的一個挑戰屏東不能成為這個通訊的一個邊陲地帶那我們應該加快建置這樣屏東的一個整個電信的一個電網的一個韌性通信的一個韌性主委一起來努力好我們會一起努力持續跟找電信業者來一起來投入這方面"},{"start":15969.551,"end":15996.505,"text":"好 那最後我想這個剛剛也有很多委員提到 我們現在委員人數不足沒得開會 那所以沒得開會的狀況之下 會造成包含衛星廣播電視的執照換照這個頻道的上下架 董監事的變更甚至重要的法規的一個修訂 還有超過430項的一個待決的一個案件 都因為委員無法 委員會無法召開而停擺那主委你有自己有什麼對策嗎"},{"start":15997.909,"end":16023.536,"text":"我們現在就是我們在我們對策下修改的這個內部授權的規定還有分辨負責等等這些都是處理完那剛剛委員講400多件是說我們在我們能夠處理範圍內之外的都沒辦法處理目前就是從文之一會開完到現在有400多件保留那剛剛委員特別提到說很重大跟業者有關的說他換照案到今年年底會有104件那如果到明年"},{"start":16025.059,"end":16029.693,"text":"明年6月底的話會有156件這個我們都是希望說這方面能夠盡快來解決"},{"start":16031.38,"end":16057.171,"text":"主委 這個知識體大耶 是 尤其我想這個我們國內很多重要的電視台跟廣播的一個系統如果因為委員會沒辦法開議開會造成這樣子無法換照面臨違規營運的一個風險我想這個會影響影響到整個產業的一個秩序還有民眾收視的一個權益問題那尤其更重要就是對於我們國家這個媒體治理的一個重大的議案都因為這樣的"},{"start":16058.291,"end":16074.444,"text":"我們的一個委員會沒辦法組成 受到很大的一個衝擊我想這個不是政治的一個惡鬥 應該要關心到我們整個國家的一個發展所以未來我想這個剛剛有提到 您後續會不會再跟這個我們相關的單位來做一個反應 盡快的補足這個"},{"start":16075.244,"end":16091.962,"text":"我們會反映 那委員講到重點就是即便是今天所提的衛港法修正案它在執行面很多都是涉及到文組織法九條二項的保留事項要有委員會議 沒有委員會議的話即便是法通過也會面臨這個難以執行的一些情況"},{"start":16093.044,"end":16110.696,"text":"對啦 尤其你看我們那個洪昭偉我想一般不會 不會善罷甘休啦 這個案子如果不趕快處理我想他也應該會窮追猛打啦所以我想未來我們怎麼樣針對NCC的一個制度能夠運轉 我想也需要我們朝野共同來努力 要讓人家有人有經緣可以做事情啦謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":16115.933,"end":16140.554,"text":"好 感謝徐副魁委員感謝代理主委所以解鈴還需細鈴人行政院長趕快提出專業公正客觀的人選送來立法院讓立法院趕快來審查我想這才是正本清源之道謝謝再來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在請陳樹悅委員自選"},{"start":16154.049,"end":16157.995,"text":"好 謝謝主席請主席邀請陳代理主委是 陳代理主委請請問"},{"start":16164.473,"end":16188.37,"text":"主委午安我們看到這個無國界記者組織每年都會為世界各國的評比這個世界自由新聞自由那這個也是最具公信力也是最客觀的一個調查那我們看到2025年最新的世界新聞自由指數的評比那台灣今年上升了三名全球排名第24繼續採點亞洲第一"},{"start":16190.692,"end":16216.52,"text":"那在我們反觀這個中國排名今年是再降6名是倒數第178名排名178是全球倒數第三是被評比為非常嚴峻而且被形容為世界最大記者監獄的一個國家那我們看到這個圖表我們台灣可以說僅次於北歐然後跟加拿大"},{"start":16217.12,"end":16233.895,"text":"還有美國跟澳洲都是並列的就是在屬於狀況尚可的一個新聞自由的一個國度所以我們應該要非常珍惜我們台灣目前的這樣子的一個成果在這個民主自由的國家就是言論自由"},{"start":16234.455,"end":16262.424,"text":"新聞自由是可以受到保障的那這個新聞媒體可以說是第四權那他們也是負有這個就是監督的一個責任然後透過就是公正的一個報導讓社會大眾可以知道這個真實的事實的一個真相所以據這樣子的一個就是新聞報導的一個責任就是新聞媒體他們應該要本於良知做"},{"start":16262.964,"end":16291.873,"text":"事實客觀的一個報導這樣子才能夠對得起他們的良心可是我們覺得我們看到就是說有一些新聞媒體卻是故意惡意的做了一些不實的一個報導引起了一些社會的一個動盪不安就是我們NCC是新聞媒體的一個主管機關所以我們對所有的新聞媒體都有就是一致的一個就是審查跟要求 是不是"},{"start":16292.307,"end":16318.043,"text":"是那聽委員所提到的這個我們國內的新聞自由度在全世界的排名是相當的名列前沿那當然是代表國內的電視媒體特別是新聞台的部分其實是意見多元就是自由奔放但是自由奔放之餘依據這個大法官4-364號解釋其實還是一定的規範就是我們今天報告所提到的制度性保障給你這個制度"},{"start":16318.363,"end":16342.285,"text":"但是你相對應的都是政府機關還是要給你一個適度的一些管制措施所以這邊如果有違反這個威廣法27條的事實差異部分我們都會來做一個依法來處理對就是說要有這些媒體都是要有遵守這樣一定的一個規範就是不能例外那如果違規的話當然我們就是有一定的一個處罰處分是不是"},{"start":16344.306,"end":16360.292,"text":"是 那目前就是深色平線換照是一個體系的那換照的目的就在就像林子儀大法官所講的這是一個來獲取這個新聞自由新聞專業的一個確保的對應的配套措施"},{"start":16360.996,"end":16386.467,"text":"是那我們今天委員會就是針對這個衛星廣播電視法這個修正草案進行這個詢答那我們看到有委員提案就是針對第17條有增訂的這個條文就是說執照遭註銷之衛星廣播電視事業及境外衛星廣播電視事業之分公司或代理商若提起行政救濟於訴願期間或行政訴訟確定"},{"start":16388.128,"end":16409.799,"text":"判決前執照繼續有效本條修正通過後這個效率溯及既往適用徵送中的案件那這一個徵定的條文裡面很明顯的他有個兩個重點就是遭註銷的這個就是這個對象處分對象然後還能夠溯及既往那我想請教我們什麼狀況會註銷這個衛星廣播電視他們的這個許可"},{"start":16415.462,"end":16434.545,"text":"是的當然再問換照辦法微工法18條有規定說我們要審查要看的重點項目如果他這些項目如果相對的那個表現如果不好的話在諮詢會議都會提出建議在文文會議也會做個審理那以這個個案上其實在文文上文會議之前都已經舉"},{"start":16437.287,"end":16464.786,"text":"舉辦過聽證會那相關的程序都已經是透明公開那這種情況就是要確保新聞專業自由的能夠持續的維持那如果像這個這種條款通過的話其實它都是行政訴訟法116條第一項的一些例外情況那這個例外情況其實剛剛司法院的前輩法官有提到這種情況其實是相對跟一般通念上是不同的那也是很少見的"},{"start":16465.586,"end":16481.702,"text":"那朔即既往那這種情況兩個加在一起其實某種程度就是比較相應更為罕見那是不是比較傾向於說是讓人家會連結成說這是個案式立法這個也是需要加以思考的地方"},{"start":16482.441,"end":16507.73,"text":"是就是說我們如果沒有違規就不可能被註銷所以被註銷就是有違反我們的規定的所以我覺得說這個條文特別針對說遭註銷的這樣子的一個被處分對象來替他解套我覺得這樣子的一個條文真的是非常的不適當我覺得身為一個立法委員應該要也要有這個法律的一個素養然後提出這樣的法案我覺得真的是一笑大方"},{"start":16508.63,"end":16534.051,"text":"那再請教主委就是目前遭註銷然後在進行行政訴訟當中的有幾家媒體目前所知就是那一家就是中天新聞所以這個條文的修訂就是非常的針對性就是要特別為中天尋求解套要讓他復活是不是就這條件來組合下去確實答案就是委員所講的"},{"start":16534.801,"end":16548.711,"text":"是那我們是不是可以請陳大祖在針對這個中天新聞他在申請換照時候在我們審議駁回那當時他被駁回的原因大概是什麼可不可以說明一下四個原因第一個是"},{"start":16550.852,"end":16574.327,"text":"他的那個違規遭民眾投訴量非常的大第二個是107年平靜後他的內控跟自律機制失靈第三個是他的新聞直播遭受不斷干擾這個在聽證會都有相關的證據出示在法院那邊都有舉出來那第四個就是"},{"start":16575.629,"end":16581.56,"text":"該台所提的補充意見跟承諾比較能夠不容易看到它未來有沒有改善的可能"},{"start":16582.441,"end":16604.72,"text":"所以我們看到他的違規的統計表真的是非常多包括違反公序良俗還有包括這個違反兒少法還有這個性侵害防治犯罪防治法等等這些我想這些都是我們沒有辦法去允許的所以我相信這個就是社會大眾也沒有辦法接受他們這樣子的一個違規那我們也看到"},{"start":16605.46,"end":16627.215,"text":"很具體的例子在2019年的時候他們有一則這個新聞報導說這個文旦丟在水庫超過200萬斤這樣子的一個不實報導引起的後續的一個影響是造成這個農民的一個很大的損失那後來這個就是"},{"start":16629.036,"end":16655.874,"text":"就是說講出這樣子一個訊息的一個誠信農民的妻子她後來說她的老公是口誤而已所以我覺得說在造成這樣子的一個假訊息之後然後後續才簡單的說用口誤這樣子來帶過我覺得這樣子真的是沒有辦法接受的一個狀況因為造成農民農產品的一個交易順序的一個損失我想這個是非常嚴重的一個"},{"start":16656.334,"end":16670.883,"text":"然後對整個社會的一個安定也是造成很大的一個衝擊我想這個都是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的所以我覺得說新聞媒體他們應該自己要有自律那沒有辦法自律他們應該就是說在整個"},{"start":16671.863,"end":16688.929,"text":"我們監督單位我們NCC的這樣子的一個規範之下他們也必須要遵守才對所以今天就是國民黨的委員特別為他們提出了這樣子的一個解套的一個條文我想社會自有公平雖然後來我相信在之後的一個"},{"start":16689.409,"end":16713.467,"text":"不管是表決或者是在院會的表決上我們因為在我們執政黨的委員就是委員數比較少我想他們還是會強行過關所以對這樣子的後果我想我們雖然不樂意見那在他們強行通過之後我想這個也是社會大眾沒有辦法接受的我想這個之後當然就是留待大家的一個公平謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":16719.397,"end":16745.528,"text":"好謝謝來接下來請蔡議員委員蔡議員委員蔡議員委員不在請葉元之委員質詢主席好麻煩請代理主委謝謝陳代理主委請葉委員午安"},{"start":16746.243,"end":16759.114,"text":"代理主委 先跟你確定一下像您的第一任的NCC主委委員任期是到什麼時候第一任的就是這一任95年的第一任是到97年你自己啦我的任期到明年7月底"},{"start":16760.188,"end":16783.358,"text":"到明年七月底所以大概剩七個多月那這個我不知道有沒有開始在徵詢你留任的意願有沒有目前沒有 還沒有現在NCC還缺四個委員那除了你之外另外兩個委員任期到什麼時候都一樣 這一批都是到七月底那你有感覺到行政院很重視NCC這個單位嗎"},{"start":16785.459,"end":16804.995,"text":"現在有四個委員到現在都雖然之前有提但是都之前提來也不溝通然後審完之後也沒有後續了好像也不認為這個NCC有運作沒運作有什麼差別你們現在你們的任期到明年7月又要結束了到時候會不會NCC都沒有委員直接組密代理組委"},{"start":16805.635,"end":16832.273,"text":"沒有 照我們組織法規定委員會前幾個月要提名在組織法是規定我跟你講組織法有規定但是現在的行政院沒有在理組織法的像那個公共電視按照公事法的規定應該是在去年11月就要提董事名單過來結果董事都已經延任了好幾個月了都沒看到名單所以現在行政院沒有在按照法律在辦事的所以不用扯那個組織法出來"},{"start":16834.134,"end":16853.181,"text":"我想跟請教一下最近大家在關心小紅書被禁這件事情因為行政院他用的是打詐當理由但NCC照道理來講打詐跟NCC很有關係而且小紅書我怎麼看都應該算是NCC的業務因為NCC的你們的組織法裡面就是規定"},{"start":16854.341,"end":16880.749,"text":"你是網際網路傳播政策制定法令訂定的相關單位嗎所以有關於網際網路的傳播的政策跟網際網路有關的應該都是NCC要扮演很關鍵角色而且是可以影響的那我想問一下小紅書這樣子被封一年站在網際網路主管機關的NCC的看法是什麼"},{"start":16881.291,"end":16899.002,"text":"好是謝謝委員跟委員報告我們的組織法規定NCC是網際網路傳播政策的訂定等等那個就是源頭端某種程度那以我某種程度就是說屬於源頭端的政策的訂定但是還要搭配一個"},{"start":16899.802,"end":16928.584,"text":"還要搭配好 那沒關係因為時間關係我想請教一下他們現在在訂這個政策之前有選過你們嗎有去開會嗎有去開會那你們的意見是什麼小紅樹這塊你們的意見是什麼它是APP因為這不是NCC主政所以沒有沒有它是屬於網際網路的一個很重要的平台對現在有300萬的台灣300萬的用戶但是所以它是很廣大的但是因為我覺得這很奇怪是NCC常常都沒有數位匯流的概念"},{"start":16929.584,"end":16940.313,"text":"以前網路歸網路電視歸電視然後大家金稅不犯河水但是在數位匯流之後其實很多東西都變同一件事情根本很簡單一個概念是說所以你們針對這個網際網路尤其是小紅書這麼大的平台你認為該進就可以直接進嗎"},{"start":16948.72,"end":16972.852,"text":"網際網路平台太陽很多種屬於OTTV視訊部分是NCC管其他屬於那個商業經濟或廣告的是數位部在主管那請教一下小紅書是屬於那一塊不屬於這個所以你們那時候意見說跟你們無關所以你們沒有不是 我們有一起共同開會有參與可能後續的一些中介投入的處理我們會有協力的部分怎麼樣協力"},{"start":16974.222,"end":17001.001,"text":"協力就像當初我們處理愛奇藝那種情況一樣就它在台灣廣告那它在電信業者有設CDN這一部分的處理就是那主委跟你請教一下因為內政部他把小紅書關掉是引用了詐欺犯罪防害防治條例第十十二條嘛他是說為了要處理詐欺犯罪緊急案件為了要及時防止民眾去接觸到那些詐欺的網站所以可以把它可以用這一條"},{"start":17002.402,"end":17031.224,"text":"來把它可能關閉吧那它有一個前提學者說有前提是第一個它必須要緊急狀態第二個它是要詐欺網站但是小紅書我怎麼看它都不是詐欺網站它是一個平台有的人或許可能會在小紅書上面被騙但是也有很多人是在小紅書上面看到了原來有人是這樣詐騙他得到很多防制詐騙的資訊甚至於他發現到自己在被詐騙當中所以它平台是中立的只是有人利用這個平台在做壞事"},{"start":17031.844,"end":17050.257,"text":"這就好比說有人在馬路上面可能騙人在馬路上騙人結果我們現在政府的做法是我把馬路整個封了一年不讓人家走這已經完全高度的侵害到人民的自由了使用資訊的自由各位報告所以這個在事法性上我覺得有很大的一個問號"},{"start":17051.597,"end":17073.5,"text":"各位報告同樣的新聞它投射在不同部會主管的法規命令裡頭那像這個涉炸部分我們當然是尊重內政部他們的一些看法沒有 我知道你今天不會講什麼啦我只是覺得作為一個網際網路的主管機關你要保障那個網路的多元啦有的時候如果說其他機關它"},{"start":17074.201,"end":17091.019,"text":"他用什麼理由當然我是不太相信是詐騙啦因為有的平台詐騙裡面更多啦我是不太相信啦但是站在網路多元這個角度其實要幫忙講話啦但其他的平台他是有法律代表要聯絡去處理X就沒有啊X有嗎"},{"start":17092.601,"end":17106.373,"text":"但是他相對他目前的情況跟瑞克斯詐欺的一大堆好不好你們是看人的啦然後剛剛講到中天因為我看到前一個委員在講說中天是因為投訴太多變成是一個關台理由"},{"start":17107.054,"end":17129.181,"text":"那所以現在我們只要討厭一家電視台發動所有的人去投訴他就可以讓他被關台喔原來NCC關台是這麼的粗糙喔不是 這個只是這是太誇張了剛剛講到說內控不行上一次在那個教育文化委員會祖密你來嘛我舉了一大堆有一個綠媒在罷免期間一大堆假消息祖密你還記得吧"},{"start":17129.941,"end":17154.791,"text":"那這種沒有 完全沒有內控的綠媒怎麼沒看到你們要去關台沒有 就程序都會經過我們所以你們都看人的嘛上紀念會 上委員會再來喔 再來剛剛那個委員民進黨委員提到的說那個農民口誤啦兩千萬口誤成噸啦其實兩千萬斤啦主持人馬上就糾正了你可以問謝榮介委員啦現場就糾正哇賽 人家口誤就要被罰耶"},{"start":17155.791,"end":17172.614,"text":"口誤旁邊的委員主持人馬上糾正結果你們也要去開罰他不舉這個例子我還沒想到舉了這個例子就讓你感覺先射箭再劃靶因為要關中天所以一堆人跑去檢舉他檢舉他成為關台理由"},{"start":17173.095,"end":17201.889,"text":"因為要關中天所以只是農民口誤主持人跟謝榮介馬上糾正然後也要被裁罰然後內控司令我看到一堆大棉旗店你去看啊一堆的那種綠媒啊造謠造到那個超級誇張的啊我去教育文化委員會去考察還可以造謠說什麼這個一大堆我們明明有通知地方官員他還說地方官員沒來那種我都不想再講了啦然後你們可以都沒看到都沒看到"},{"start":17202.469,"end":17224.023,"text":"只是嚴厲只有中天因為他批評政府最用力這一種東西我跟你講這就是為什麼大家衛廣法今天會修正案正常來講如果我們國家尊重新聞自由大家衛廣法這個文化民主文化願意尊重的話法律都是在在後面大家只要尊重就好現在是沒有想到政府會這樣搞"},{"start":17225.124,"end":17233.392,"text":"那我現在我提的案子我也沒有看到你們在你們的那個裡面有回應啊我的案子就是說現在電視像我家電視"},{"start":17235.818,"end":17262.14,"text":"往右邊切就是網路電視往左邊切是有線電視對我來講網路電視跟衛星電視是一樣的東西啊都是透過電視看啊那網路上我看網路電視我看賴清德假設我看賴清德總統的YouTube好了他都在圈圈他自己在罵國民黨舉例啦就譬如說講他政績什麼之類的也可以啊那我看到轉過來看到那個電視也可以啊而且"},{"start":17263.493,"end":17282.602,"text":"YouTube什麼不用換照只有電視也要換照這已經很過時了以前為什麼要換照是因為以前頻道稀有所以必須要有一個退場機制你做不好換人來做現在是大家都有機會可以做那就是市場來決定嘛你東西真的很爛就沒人看了嘛你如果違法有相關的法律來規範嘛"},{"start":17284.303,"end":17304.897,"text":"所以你現在在數位匯流時代保留一個關台的手段其實第一個沒有必要第二個你就是侵害到新聞自由啦這個不同平台它目前的價值其實是不是達到可以一視同仁來看待其實這個都是在持續難問的過程你覺得賴總統的頻道沒有電視台有價值是不是"},{"start":17307.899,"end":17332.991,"text":"不是 我講平台不是啦 這個有沒有價值是有沒有價值是閱聽人來決定不是NCC來決定數位匯流時代有沒有價值有越點大家做眼球爭奪戰不是你來定義誰有價值 誰沒有價值是由閱聽人來決定基本上你越鬆現在的趨勢就是越鬆綁越好更何況我們的NCC還曾經做過新聞自由的快指手所以我覺得衛王法通過是很有必要的謝謝謝謝偉"},{"start":17336.881,"end":17339.066,"text":"好 謝謝 感謝院長委員 來請代理主委請回"},{"start":17340.407,"end":17367.555,"text":"好 接下來再請張家俊委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員楊瓊英所提書面諮詢列入記錄並且刊登公報三 委員於執行中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關競訴以書面答覆"},{"start":17369.211,"end":17375.234,"text":"針對本日會議做以下決議討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本次會議結束現在散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}