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部長"},{"start":817,"end":818,"text":"好的"},{"start":818,"end":819,"text":"我給你一點時間啦"},{"start":819,"end":820,"text":"這個一方面"},{"start":820,"end":821,"text":"李冠德案子你當然要徹查"},{"start":821,"end":823,"text":"而且你要保證他不能干涉調查"},{"start":823,"end":824,"text":"第二相關的內控機制"},{"start":824,"end":826,"text":"請你對外宣示兩個月"},{"start":826,"end":828,"text":"兩個月之後請你一併跟國人當中說明"},{"start":828,"end":829,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":829,"end":830,"text":"對 我們會加速"},{"start":830,"end":831,"text":"好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:08+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:09+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:09+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:10+08:00","text":"外交部長有請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:09.500000+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:09.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:20.222222+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:20.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:25.714286+08:00","text":"高市早苗針對靖國神社一事，你剛才講得很清楚，剛剛質詢的時候有一段的辯論。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:27.142857+08:00","text":"沒有辯論啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:27.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:33.833333+08:00","text":"交流溝通，釐清問題，不然討論的東西有時候不對焦，會各說各話。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:37.866667+08:00","text":"這個議題之所以敏感，就是因為裡面供奉所謂的甲級戰犯。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:38.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:47.652174+08:00","text":"過去的時候，當然日本會隨著執政黨的一些改變，界線上面會有一些調整，每一次的調整都會挑動敏感的外交神經。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:48.187500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:43:54.800000+08:00","text":"我想臺灣是當初被殖民的地方，也是戰爭的受害人，部長，你就直接一點嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:43:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:01.875000+08:00","text":"你樂不樂見他們重新重視靖國神社這件事，甚至是小泉跑去參拜，你樂見這樣的事嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:07.777778+08:00","text":"我覺得參拜是一回事，但對歷史的反省檢討，避免再發生悲劇……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:08.857143+08:00","text":"你樂見還是不樂見這件事嘛？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:09.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:21.750000+08:00","text":"當下我們就是要共同來維護臺海跟印太的和平跟穩定，我們也不能夠無視於現在臺灣正面對中國的威脅……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:23.789474+08:00","text":"你不要扯別的事情，回答你樂不樂見就好。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:24.900000+08:00","text":"這個是兩個層次的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:28.500000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛賴士葆委員很關心你說的尊重到底是什麼意思，對吧？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:34.555556+08:00","text":"請委員去看一下那個文字，就是日本社會對於這個問題有不同的意見。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:36.538462+08:00","text":"你剛剛講過的話就不用再重複……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:38.846154+08:00","text":"並不是說尊重什麼參拜……這是兩回事。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:40.636364+08:00","text":"你樂不樂見這樣的事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:44.333333+08:00","text":"沒有，我不會陷入委員的言語裡。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:46.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:52.666667+08:00","text":"我們了解日本社會對這個問題也是很分歧，不要講說外交上也是，我們有個立場。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:53.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:44:58.875000+08:00","text":"那我換一件事情問，最近我們的駐日代表李逸洋大使在長崎的事情，這顯然是被矮化，你樂見這樣的事嗎？","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:44:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:07.666667+08:00","text":"他是去廣島，所以其實我們不但沒被矮化，還把我們視為同樣的使節團，這我表達肯定……","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:09.800000+08:00","text":"是在長崎，我問的是長崎的事情。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:10.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:28.800000+08:00","text":"長崎在後面，是由處長去，那是基於人道的關懷，因為他基本上是核爆的和平紀念日，所以我們有很好的溝通管道，我們不能把去年的情形跟今年的混在一起。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:28.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:29.800000+08:00","text":"有很好的溝通管道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:29.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:34.785714+08:00","text":"嚴正的抗議、降格出席，然後長崎市政府還有所回應等等？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:41.666667+08:00","text":"這個看起來不是很友好的溝通，對於李逸洋大使抗議的言辭我是理解的，遇到矮化，你當然要抗議，對不對？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:46.800000+08:00","text":"我覺得李逸洋大使可能把去年跟今年的弄在一起。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:45:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:45:59.923077+08:00","text":"其實對方是有展現改善的誠意，但是我們不滿意，但是即使我們的外交處境很困難，我們還是要在參與中來表達我們的立場，這就是臺灣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:00.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:04.823529+08:00","text":"今天的問題就是我們不被承認，我們依然還是要自我承認。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:06.833333+08:00","text":"我現在要追問一下這件事情的後續發展……","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:10.818182+08:00","text":"你不可能每一件事情都得到像與我們有建交國家的對待。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:10.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:11.818182+08:00","text":"部長，你聽我問完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:11.235294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:17.700000+08:00","text":"我們跟日本即使在東京有很多的往來，也是在一個中間的地帶……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:20.857143+08:00","text":"部長，你先聽我把話講完，我是很擔心最近事態的一些發展。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:32.727273+08:00","text":"從他前面的劃界，從看棒球事件的一些爭議跟一些爆料，跟你在過境的時候遇到的一些風波，到長崎的這件事情，日本恐怕受到不小的壓力。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:38.800000+08:00","text":"他們當然有來自中國的壓力，但跟臺灣的關係還是非常友好，我們的溝通管道也很暢順。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:40.454545+08:00","text":"我就要問外交部的處理。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:51.866667+08:00","text":"我們現在很清楚，大家都是了解事情的人，你現在手下這麼多，外交界非常資深的這些文武百官都非常清楚，他顯然是面對到很大的地緣壓力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:46:58.750000+08:00","text":"當他面對到這樣的壓力的時候，我們基於是好朋友，所以體諒他為難的困境，我們不要多做升溫？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:46:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:00.894737+08:00","text":"還是說我們還是要堅持本來的原則，把話說清楚？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:00.894737+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:01.894737+08:00","text":"外交部現在的立場是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:06.818182+08:00","text":"有些東西是用說的，有些東西是用做的，外交的微妙之處就在這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:11.818182+08:00","text":"說的多，不代表關係好，有時候做的多，你要看實質。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:12.187500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:20.800000+08:00","text":"因為我們要共同去面對中共的打壓，他不只打壓臺灣，也打壓日本，也打壓菲律賓，我們當然要聯合起來，一起阻止中共改變現狀。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:28.857143+08:00","text":"我現在看不出來有聯合的跡象，比如說，以李逸洋大使這一段的抗議等等，反而是看到臺日之間的關係顯然出現了摩擦，所以我現在才問你，你的路線是什麼？","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:43.750000+08:00","text":"他前半段在講的是他去廣島受到了禮遇，跟其他有邦交國家是一樣的，我是覺得你要看前半段，因為他去的是廣島，長崎是由處長去，這個就是溝通過的啊！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:45.833333+08:00","text":"部長，他如果只講前半段，那也就算了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:50.666667+08:00","text":"他就是因為前面有抗議的動作，長崎政府還回應說這跟外務省也有關，對不對？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:51.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:52.428571+08:00","text":"以前是你自己說要來的，我們才這樣安排……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:53+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:53.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:55.700000+08:00","text":"那個是由市政府層級辦的活動。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:55.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:56.700000+08:00","text":"市政府層級？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:47:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:47:59.833333+08:00","text":"我們在地方政府辦的時候當然跟外交部也有關係，還是我們現在……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:01.800000+08:00","text":"為什麼兩個市會不一樣？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:12.600000+08:00","text":"就代表他們內部有不一樣的做法，好的，我們要肯定、鼓勵；不好的，我們就是要表達抗議，但是參與還是一個重點啦！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:15.875000+08:00","text":"我們不出席很多活動，我們就沒有發言權啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:17.818182+08:00","text":"部長，你自己思考一下，你當然可以講很多的外交實例……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:23.833333+08:00","text":"我們的處境就這麼困難，你看我們在亞銀被改名，我們還是在抗議中參加好幾十年啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:28.875000+08:00","text":"你說你可以說一套做一套等等，你說你可以要怎麼說、怎麼做都可以，但我告訴你，我提醒你而已，這件事情大家都在看。","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:35.846154+08:00","text":"我想我們都要很客觀、很持平地看這件事，就是人家顯然受到壓力，可能會做一定的調整，外交部要好好因應這件事情。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:39.833333+08:00","text":"你今天講，你要體諒他，兩邊之間維持一個很好的默契……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:41.714286+08:00","text":"沒有體諒，我們表達不滿意……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:41.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:42.714286+08:00","text":"你先聽我把話講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:44.846154+08:00","text":"但不滿意的過程當中，我們依然可以以適當的方式參與……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:44.846154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:45.846154+08:00","text":"主席，時間暫停一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:46.777778+08:00","text":"最好把我視為邦交國，但有時候沒辦法滿意……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:57.833333+08:00","text":"部長，我會給你時間回答，你不要緊張，我會給你時間回答，但是你要讓我把話講完，不要一直插嘴，真的很糟糕。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:57.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:58.833333+08:00","text":"請聽委員的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:48:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:48:59.800000+08:00","text":"不會、不會，因為我對問題還是很真誠的回應。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:01.750000+08:00","text":"我會給你時間回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:01.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:02.750000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:15.714286+08:00","text":"我再次強調，我今天在這個地方是要提醒你，人家面對很大的壓力的時候，外交部有兩條路可以走，一個是理解他的困難，在這樣的情況下，臺灣的外交本來就要非常彈性的，這我們都會尊重。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:20.800000+08:00","text":"你理解他的困難，所以大家要配合跑位，就不要一天到晚想著要做宣傳等等。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:23.727273+08:00","text":"如果你執意要，就請你做到尾！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:26.888889+08:00","text":"你該抗議的時候……我不會反對抗議，畢竟被矮化是一個事實。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:35.666667+08:00","text":"所以你該據理力爭的時候你就爭，但是你的路線要清楚，不要有的時候好像給人家要摩擦的感覺，一下說沒事、沒事，一切都很好，很矛盾。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:37.777778+08:00","text":"沒有，我們有表達立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:38.833333+08:00","text":"你有表達立場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:49:50+08:00","text":"但我今天主要不是要問這個問題，我今天要問的問題還是大家都關心的問題，是你駐外館處管理的問題，李冠德處長回來接受調查，對不對？對。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:49:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:00.846154+08:00","text":"他要接受調查時間，你剛剛說兩個月之內會有結果，我要問更細節一點的事，在這兩個月的時間內，他是接受完調查就要回去了嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:04.800000+08:00","text":"就是把他調查完，我們當然會加速來辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:11.750000+08:00","text":"我要問的是，比如說他是留在臺灣接受徹底的調查，還是只是回來問個話，問完話就回去照常上班，是哪一種？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:12.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:17.875000+08:00","text":"依我們的規定是一個月內要啟動調查，現在已經啟動了，然後兩個月內要調查完畢。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:19.846154+08:00","text":"我知道你兩個月內要調查完畢，這我看到了啊！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:24.888889+08:00","text":"我們也希望加速程序，因為這個涉及到我們外館的運作，我們也不希望受影響。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:25.800000+08:00","text":"你講得真好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:26.909091+08:00","text":"涉及到外館的運作對不對？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:33.916667+08:00","text":"因為事情好多，當然你說釐清事情的真相需要時間，這本席願意尊重，但這件事情很多人都提這是霸凌的問題！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:37.833333+08:00","text":"霸凌問題很敏感，當然也是個事實，你要好好處理。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:46.800000+08:00","text":"但他不是只有霸凌的問題，他還有超速駕車這種影響國家形象的問題，他還有可能挪用公款，挪用公款這事可大可小，前一陣子……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:48.857143+08:00","text":"沒有，這個很重要，不能可大可小。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:50:49.142857+08:00","text":"當然嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:50:49.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:01.666667+08:00","text":"像之前馮光中最後是用貪污治罪條例起訴，所以你今天不能說為了調查委員會兩個月內就要交代了，你應該要詳細交代調查的細節是什麼，然後他還可不可以回去上班？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:12.833333+08:00","text":"我們之所以要問說他可不可以回去原地方上班，原因是前面吹哨者就爆料，8月2日事情見了光，8月6日還開會喬這個事情，一項一項來問，還想要抓吹哨者。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:14.600000+08:00","text":"我們7月22日就立案了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:15.833333+08:00","text":"你就接到了嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:15.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:16.833333+08:00","text":"是立案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:16.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:23.857143+08:00","text":"我知道，這個事情在媒體見光之後，他還去召集他下面人要開始一條一條來對這個事情，你現在讓他回去……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:24.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:25.750000+08:00","text":"不能夠干擾調查。對嘛！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:29.625000+08:00","text":"如果有這個行為，一併列入調查範圍。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:36.875000+08:00","text":"所以我現在就要問你，在調查期間，你說有兩個月，被調查人、被申訴人有沒有暫停職務或調整職務的必要？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:37.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:37.857143+08:00","text":"要看他的情形。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:38.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:41.571429+08:00","text":"我們先把他調回，就是讓他不要在現場去影響調查。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:41.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:43.875000+08:00","text":"是啊，這個本席非常關心啊！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:44.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:48.666667+08:00","text":"你看，這個速度都很快，我們馬上就把他調回了。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:51:57.875000+08:00","text":"所以你看，繞了半天，這就是我問你問題的原因，他是這兩個月都要待在臺灣接受調查，也避免他回去干擾調查，這是一種，或者是你這段時間基於……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:51:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:02.888889+08:00","text":"這兩個月是最長時間，我們可能可以加速完成，我們尊重專案小組專業的調查。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:08.818182+08:00","text":"那你就告訴大家要留多久的時間，比如說，至少要留兩個禮拜、三個禮拜，要完成到什麼樣程序，你要交代一下。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:20.750000+08:00","text":"因為這件事情檢舉的內容非常多，不只是霸凌，還有好多其他項目，有一些當事人，包括李處長也對外說明不是如此，我們必須兩造並陳，毋枉毋縱。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:20.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:21.750000+08:00","text":"我同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:26.272727+08:00","text":"所以我是覺得站在這個調查前面，他也是一個基於平等……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:28.909091+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛有說不可以讓他干擾調查對不對？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:32.875000+08:00","text":"不可以讓他干擾調查，所以相關的規定裡面就有寫，其實是可以暫停職務的。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:33.307692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:37.857143+08:00","text":"後續如果需要更久的調查時間，我們當然有代理制度，也有其他的方式來處理。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:38.083333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:38.916667+08:00","text":"你現在是啟動還是不啟動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:39.750000+08:00","text":"什麼時候啟動？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:49.750000+08:00","text":"現在他剛回來，馬上開會就知道了，另外人事處對這個事情一定是非常關注，我們既然把他調回，就是希望加速調查。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:53.777778+08:00","text":"所以繞了半天，你還是沒講到底要不要暫停職務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:56.909091+08:00","text":"還是說今天大家問完了，過了一個禮拜他就被放回去了？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:52:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:52:59.833333+08:00","text":"他就是已經影響到我們外館的運作，他已經調回了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:10.833333+08:00","text":"我們現在是看這個時間，要啟動專案開第一次會，因為我們已經立案了，而且時間都早於媒體報導，代表我們是主動要查辦這個事。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:17.875000+08:00","text":"所以你今天如果很清楚，就說我要徹查到底，而且要避免他干擾，你就說在調查的時間內他不能回去就好了嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:20.800000+08:00","text":"我的態度跟立委一樣，只是我講話比較不會說那種好像比較……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:21.888889+08:00","text":"那他到底會不會回去嘛？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:27.857143+08:00","text":"因為我們現在看到的訊息是他回臺接受調查，那請問他什麼時候要回去？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:27.857143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:28.857143+08:00","text":"你是假設性的問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:35.900000+08:00","text":"我們可能也很快就把他調查完，在釐清之前是不可能回去的，因為至少要把證據都弄完，不能來來去去，也不可能花那麼多的時間。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:36.900000+08:00","text":"所以他現在人還在國內？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:37.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:39.857143+08:00","text":"剛回來，已經到達臺灣了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:41.500000+08:00","text":"還沒問話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:42.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:44.750000+08:00","text":"今天是星期三，已經有安排了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:44.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:45.750000+08:00","text":"你不是說禮拜一嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:53:54.800000+08:00","text":"有，都有排schedule了，因為要以專案調查小組的委員為主，然後我們希望加快一點，會密集。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:53:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:00.875000+08:00","text":"我換個方式問，你有沒有辦法跟國人大眾交代而且保證，在調查期間，絕對不會讓他再干擾調查的結果？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:07.666667+08:00","text":"我們禁止他有任何干擾調查的行為，如果有發生，也一併列入調查對象，就這樣。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:08.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:09.636364+08:00","text":"好，早這樣講不就好了？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:11.818182+08:00","text":"大家關鍵就是問這個事嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:11.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:12.818182+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:19.833333+08:00","text":"再來我要問的是，因為指控裡面有挪用公款的問題，挪用公款的問題恐怕就不會只是外交部的內部調查了吧？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:21.833333+08:00","text":"檢調現在對這件事情有任何行動嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:25.750000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有依法通報，或者是怎麼樣的聯合調查方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:26.909091+08:00","text":"這件事情請外交部說明一下。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:32.857143+08:00","text":"因為這個是檢舉的內容，它不是像司法單位，我想就政風、人事，他們都彙過意見。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:34.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:34.875000+08:00","text":"請補充說明一下。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"孔處長憲臺","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:48.714286+08:00","text":"報告委員，如果有涉及刑事不法的部分，現在臺北地檢署指揮廉政署和本部政風處一起做這部分的調查。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:50.500000+08:00","text":"已經有在做調查了是不是？是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:54:55.571429+08:00","text":"好的，相關的調查要嚴格處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:54:56.090909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:55:09.916667+08:00","text":"我要回來問外交部部長，這一段時間有很多，包括剛剛我講的馮光中、前面講的俞大㵢、羅昌發等等，都因為是駐外，天高皇帝遠，所以常常會有一些不太好的習慣或是不太乾淨的文化。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:55:10.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:55:15.750000+08:00","text":"從制度面的角度，外交部要如何徹底改善公款可能被挪用的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:55:16.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:55:20.555556+08:00","text":"公務員依法行政，如果有違法就要辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:55:21.090909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:55:36.800000+08:00","text":"另外就是改善工作環境，我們不能因為是外館，就做任何的合理化，包括現在對於霸凌、性侵，這些都是新的法令規定，很嚴格的，我們要教育。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:55:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:55:56.875000+08:00","text":"另外就是要讓他可以申訴，其他的其實就是工作環境的改善，把那些不良的文化汰除，我們不能夠因為是外館就把它合理化，但是外館確實是在一種很大的內外壓力之下工作，怎麼樣讓館長能夠以身作則，創造一個好的工作環境，這個才是治本之道。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:55:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:04.750000+08:00","text":"基本上本席對於對外館處的預算，大家都知道派駐是一件很辛苦的事情，我也從來不多加為難。謝謝。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:15.857143+08:00","text":"但是如果立法院作為把關的機關，都不多加為難，因為大家體恤公務人員的辛勞、外交人員的辛勞，都不把關，但是你的內控機制不好的話，我們要怎麼跟國人大眾交代呢？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:25.750000+08:00","text":"所以本席建議外交部，針對相關館處的經費，你至少要讓內控機制變嚴格，這你總做得到吧？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:34.733333+08:00","text":"以前當然講天高皇帝遠，那我就奏一本准一本；現在核銷都很方便，所以奇奇怪怪的東西就跑出來了，問題就出在於這裡，你的內控機制要如何來做改善？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:35.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:45.500000+08:00","text":"外交部去研議一下，你們人事、會計等單位和外館那邊討論一下，看怎麼樣去加強內控的機制，部長，你要給立法院外交及國防委員會一個交代，好不好？好的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:50.846154+08:00","text":"我給你一點時間，一方面李冠德的案子你當然要徹查，而且要保證他不能干涉調查。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:56.666667+08:00","text":"第二，相關的內控機制，你對外宣示是兩個月，這兩個月請你一併跟國人大眾說明，可以嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:57.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:57.833333+08:00","text":"我們會加速。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T11:56:58.666667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-08-19T11:56:59.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:57:00.595238+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T11:57:00.895238+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T11:57:04.609524+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}