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那其中裡面"},{"start":91.24000000000001,"end":94.04,"text":"有談到性別暴力的定義"},{"start":94.04,"end":97.60000000000001,"text":"它就是基於性別歧視跟權力的壓迫"},{"start":97.60000000000001,"end":99.84,"text":"我想定義的部分我就不再講了"},{"start":99.84,"end":101.68,"text":"那我是特別提到說"},{"start":101.68,"end":105.04,"text":"裡面的第35號一般性建議"},{"start":105.04,"end":107.12,"text":"其實就是在講這個部分"},{"start":107.12,"end":111.12,"text":"他有提到說確保對包含婚內強姦"},{"start":111.12,"end":113.36,"text":"跟熟人強姦或約會強姦"},{"start":113.36,"end":115.48,"text":"等性犯罪的界定"},{"start":115.48,"end":118.28,"text":"以缺少自願同意為基礎"},{"start":118.28,"end":121.72,"text":"並將脅迫情形要考慮在內"},{"start":121.72,"end":125.12,"text":"所以這其實所謂的缺少自願同意"},{"start":125.12,"end":128.48,"text":"就是我們現在在討論的這一題"},{"start":128.48,"end":129.28,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":129.28,"end":131.4,"text":"CEDAW的第二條就是"},{"start":131.4,"end":135.04,"text":"締約國應該採取一切適當的辦法"},{"start":135.04,"end":137.52,"text":"推行相關的政策"},{"start":137.52,"end":141.24,"text":"那也請法務部就是要落實這個公約"},{"start":141.24,"end":143.52,"text":"再次研議各國立法經驗"},{"start":143.52,"end":146.44,"text":"評估刑法的妨害新竹罪章"},{"start":146.44,"end":148.84,"text":"是不是應該要採積極同意"},{"start":148.84,"end":152.44,"text":"所以這部分次長可以同意吧"},{"start":152.44,"end":153.32000000000002,"text":"基本上"},{"start":153.32000000000002,"end":155.12,"text":"各位報告我們三次已經承諾"},{"start":155.12,"end":157.20000000000002,"text":"兩個月內會在9月22號以前"},{"start":157.20000000000002,"end":158.96,"text":"會把這相關的評估意見"},{"start":158.96,"end":162.60000000000002,"text":"送到郭永輝跟委員的手上"},{"start":162.60000000000002,"end":164.32000000000002,"text":"好 那也希望就是說"},{"start":164.32000000000002,"end":166.72,"text":"你們在這過程中可以多看"},{"start":166.72,"end":169.28,"text":"已經國內法化的CEDAW公約"},{"start":169.32,"end":171.2,"text":"他們對於剛剛我所講的"},{"start":171.2,"end":173.88,"text":"就是所謂自願同意的一個"},{"start":173.88,"end":175.6,"text":"各種的論述 好不好"},{"start":175.6,"end":175.96,"text":"好"},{"start":175.96,"end":176.84,"text":"好 可以"},{"start":176.84,"end":177.64,"text":"那謝謝請回"},{"start":177.64,"end":179.96,"text":"那我們就期待你那個兩個月"},{"start":179.96,"end":181.04,"text":"應該是什麼時候會"},{"start":181.04,"end":181.76,"text":"922"},{"start":181.76,"end":183.52,"text":"922給我們的報告"},{"start":183.52,"end":186,"text":"那希望這一次能夠比上次更嚴謹"},{"start":186,"end":188.2,"text":"能夠清楚看到各個國家 好不好"},{"start":188.2,"end":188.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":188.6,"end":190.44,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":190.44,"end":193.32,"text":"好 那再來請那個高秘書長"},{"start":193.32,"end":194.48,"text":"好 有請高秘書長"},{"start":194.48,"end":195.04,"text":"好"},{"start":195.04,"end":196.04,"text":"您好"},{"start":196.04,"end":199.67999999999998,"text":"我今天也是想了解那個法官學院"},{"start":199.67999999999998,"end":203.12,"text":"他怎麼去辦理就是CEDAW的"},{"start":203.12,"end":205.56,"text":"各種相關的訓練"},{"start":205.56,"end":208.51999999999998,"text":"那我們知道法官學院"},{"start":208.51999999999998,"end":209.92,"text":"其實有一些課程"},{"start":209.92,"end":213.23999999999998,"text":"包含就是我看到有"},{"start":213.23999999999998,"end":215.79999999999998,"text":"所謂的法官職前研習班"},{"start":215.79999999999998,"end":218.07999999999998,"text":"然後也有2024年增設了"},{"start":218.07999999999998,"end":220.92,"text":"強化CEDAW與法院之運用專門"},{"start":221.92,"end":223.64,"text":"還有你們也有所謂的"},{"start":223.64,"end":226.51999999999998,"text":"司法院級所屬各機關"},{"start":226.51999999999998,"end":229.67999999999998,"text":"推動性別主流化的實施計畫"},{"start":229.67999999999998,"end":231.44,"text":"有一個計畫已經結束了"},{"start":231.44,"end":233.44,"text":"還有一個計畫正在進行中"},{"start":233.44,"end":236.44,"text":"這個院長應該了解對不對"},{"start":237.16,"end":239.44,"text":"這個實施計畫細節我不了解"},{"start":239.44,"end":241.67999999999998,"text":"可是這是我們正在行充的"},{"start":241.67999999999998,"end":243.64,"text":"好 那您知不知道就是"},{"start":243.64,"end":247.04,"text":"CEDAW的應用類跟司法院的關係"},{"start":247.04,"end":248.83999999999997,"text":"目前最不明顯的"},{"start":248.84,"end":250.24,"text":"司法院的關係"},{"start":250.24,"end":253.24,"text":"目前最被大家詬病的問題是什麼"},{"start":254.24,"end":256.24,"text":"其實可以跟委員報告"},{"start":256.24,"end":260.6,"text":"其實CEDAW這種理念"},{"start":260.6,"end":265.52,"text":"真的是我們必須要讓"},{"start":265.52,"end":268.6,"text":"這個法官們必須要去學習"},{"start":268.6,"end":270.52,"text":"要去貫徹"},{"start":270.52,"end":272.44,"text":"那這個我相信就是"},{"start":272.44,"end":275.84000000000003,"text":"等於要內化成自己的"},{"start":275.84000000000003,"end":277.12,"text":"我不敢講信仰"},{"start":277.12,"end":280.12,"text":"可是是自己必須要有思考模式"},{"start":280.12,"end":282.12,"text":"這是我們司法院"},{"start":282.12,"end":285.8,"text":"一直在藉由課程"},{"start":285.8,"end":287.32,"text":"藉由演講"},{"start":287.32,"end":291,"text":"希望法官不是只看到法律"},{"start":291,"end":295.2,"text":"而是要去了解你處理的"},{"start":295.2,"end":297.36,"text":"當事人之間的問題"},{"start":297.36,"end":299.48,"text":"那我想那個秘書長很了解"},{"start":299.48,"end":300.56,"text":"那我想請問您"},{"start":300.56,"end":304.44,"text":"那您如何知道法官到底懂不懂CEDAW"},{"start":304.48,"end":305.88,"text":"我們這個"},{"start":305.88,"end":308.08,"text":"就是說訓練了半天"},{"start":308.08,"end":309.84,"text":"他們懂或不懂"},{"start":309.84,"end":311.84,"text":"我們的判準是什麼"},{"start":311.84,"end":314.84,"text":"其實可能外界第一個"},{"start":314.84,"end":318.04,"text":"就看你判決的形成"},{"start":318.04,"end":320.64,"text":"這個就是法官對外的語言表示"},{"start":320.64,"end":322.64,"text":"就是從法官的判決對不對"},{"start":322.64,"end":326.04,"text":"還有他的整個審理過程"},{"start":326.04,"end":327.32,"text":"審理的過程"},{"start":327.32,"end":327.84,"text":"是"},{"start":327.84,"end":332.44,"text":"那如果司法院重視這個東西的話"},{"start":332.44,"end":335.24,"text":"你們有什麼機制來確定"},{"start":335.24,"end":337.71999999999997,"text":"譬如說我們要跟其他國家比"},{"start":337.71999999999997,"end":340.84,"text":"我們的法官真的懂了CEDAW"},{"start":340.84,"end":342.64,"text":"而且落實在判決中"},{"start":342.64,"end":344.92,"text":"你這個指標是什麼"},{"start":344.92,"end":347.44,"text":"我相信各位都能夠了解"},{"start":347.44,"end":348.84,"text":"能夠考上法官"},{"start":348.84,"end":350.8,"text":"他資質都不錯"},{"start":350.8,"end":353.36,"text":"他學習能力也應該不錯"},{"start":353.36,"end":355.64,"text":"可是我們要尊重他的獨立性"},{"start":355.64,"end":358.28,"text":"所以就司法院來講"},{"start":358.28,"end":360.28,"text":"我們就是廣設課程"},{"start":360.28,"end":361.44,"text":"而且是要要求"},{"start":361.44,"end":363.44,"text":"我自己也是老師在上課"},{"start":363.44,"end":366.44,"text":"上了半天有時候學生在滑手機"},{"start":366.44,"end":370.24,"text":"所以到底如何知道學生有沒有學到"},{"start":370.24,"end":372.24,"text":"法官要上課的時候"},{"start":372.24,"end":375.04,"text":"他在法官學院也是學生"},{"start":375.04,"end":378.24,"text":"到底他有沒有學到CEDAW"},{"start":378.24,"end":381.24,"text":"就是你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":381.24,"end":384.64,"text":"當然因為整個是學習課程的設計"},{"start":384.64,"end":387.24,"text":"我相信這跟學習課程設計有關係"},{"start":387.24,"end":388.64,"text":"我們不用繞來繞去"},{"start":388.64,"end":390.64,"text":"你怎麼作為秘書長"},{"start":390.64,"end":392.64,"text":"你怎麼知道法官"},{"start":392.64,"end":394.24,"text":"有沒有了解CEDAW"},{"start":394.24,"end":396.03999999999996,"text":"有應用在你剛講的"},{"start":396.03999999999996,"end":398.84,"text":"判決還有這個過程"},{"start":398.84,"end":399.44,"text":"最簡單"},{"start":399.44,"end":401.44,"text":"你有沒有任何的機制跟指標"},{"start":401.44,"end":403.44,"text":"看判決就知道"},{"start":403.44,"end":405.44,"text":"那你們怎麼看他有沒有"},{"start":405.44,"end":407.44,"text":"你知道運用到CEDAW"},{"start":407.44,"end":409.03999999999996,"text":"好"},{"start":409.03999999999996,"end":410.24,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":410.24,"end":413.03999999999996,"text":"我們司法院對於法官"},{"start":413.03999999999996,"end":416.44,"text":"是不是有去了解CEDAW"},{"start":416.44,"end":418.24,"text":"當然是從判決來看"},{"start":418.24,"end":420.64,"text":"那你們的了解結果是什麼"},{"start":420.64,"end":422.04,"text":"你知不知道"},{"start":422.04,"end":425.84000000000003,"text":"當然我們要講說正在學習中"},{"start":425.84000000000003,"end":426.44,"text":"沒有"},{"start":426.44,"end":428.44,"text":"那他到底學習好了沒有"},{"start":430.24,"end":435.44,"text":"就是只能要求他一直學習"},{"start":435.44,"end":437.04,"text":"因為我們不可能"},{"start":437.04,"end":438.84000000000003,"text":"這個一定是一直學習"},{"start":438.84000000000003,"end":439.84000000000003,"text":"然後從"},{"start":439.84000000000003,"end":440.84000000000003,"text":"不學到最後"},{"start":440.84000000000003,"end":441.64,"text":"然後從沒有"},{"start":441.64,"end":444.44,"text":"有沒有及格都不知道"},{"start":444.44,"end":446.44,"text":"一直開課不知道"},{"start":446.44,"end":447.64,"text":"就是說學生"},{"start":447.64,"end":449.44,"text":"法官是在滑手機"},{"start":449.44,"end":451.44,"text":"還是有學到CEDAW"},{"start":451.44,"end":452.64,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":452.64,"end":454.44,"text":"其實上課他是滑手機"},{"start":454.44,"end":455.64,"text":"當然不能講"},{"start":455.64,"end":459.84,"text":"可是從判決的呈現"},{"start":459.84,"end":461.24,"text":"那判決怎麼呈現"},{"start":461.24,"end":463.04,"text":"他有沒有了解CEDAW"},{"start":463.04,"end":464.24,"text":"時間不夠了"},{"start":464.24,"end":466.04,"text":"真的沒有辦法在這邊繞了"},{"start":466.04,"end":468.04,"text":"您剛剛很多答案都答得這麼好"},{"start":468.04,"end":469.84,"text":"這麼直接還被稱讚"},{"star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們兩個在這邊重複"},{"start":860.64,"end":862.64,"text":"我們時間已經超過了"},{"start":862.64,"end":863.64,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":863.64,"end":864.64,"text":"我們實際上"},{"start":864.64,"end":865.64,"text":"改善機制是什麼好不好"},{"start":865.64,"end":867.64,"text":"秘書長改善機制是什麼"},{"start":867.64,"end":869.64,"text":"如果增加CEDAW的應用"},{"start":869.64,"end":871.64,"text":"他不能夠離兒童權利公約"},{"start":871.64,"end":875.64,"text":"298件對11800件"},{"start":876.64,"end":878.64,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":878.64,"end":880.64,"text":"當然法官是靠上課"},{"start":880.64,"end":881.64,"text":"就如同委員所說的"},{"start":881.64,"end":883.64,"text":"我們可能不是線上上課"},{"start":883.64,"end":885.64,"text":"因為如果所呈現的數字"},{"start":885.64,"end":887.64,"text":"讓外界認為"},{"start":887.64,"end":889.64,"text":"你法官太不重視"},{"start":889.64,"end":891.64,"text":"當然對法官的教"},{"start":891.64,"end":892.64,"text":"這個學習過程"},{"start":892.64,"end":894.64,"text":"我們就會強制"},{"start":894.64,"end":897.64,"text":"那你用什麼方式來精進呢"},{"start":897.64,"end":898.64,"text":"他們理不理解"},{"start":898.64,"end":900.64,"text":"可以想出個方法吧"},{"start":900.64,"end":903.64,"text":"最重要就如委員所說的"},{"start":903.64,"end":906.64,"text":"第一個法官是優秀的"},{"start":906.64,"end":908.64,"text":"我們當然認為法官很優秀"},{"start":908.64,"end":910.64,"text":"對他就是要來上課"},{"start":910.64,"end":912.64,"text":"可是你們本來就規定"},{"start":912.64,"end":913.64,"text":"他有時數"},{"start":913.64,"end":915.64,"text":"對可能如委員所說的"},{"start":915.64,"end":917.64,"text":"是不是可能你線上"},{"start":917.64,"end":918.64,"text":"是有沒有專心"},{"start":918.64,"end":921.64,"text":"不管是線上或者是實體"},{"start":921.64,"end":923.64,"text":"對都要有一個機制"},{"start":923.64,"end":928.64,"text":"對當然就線上來上課來講"},{"start":928.64,"end":929.64,"text":"是有機制"},{"start":929.64,"end":931.64,"text":"其實他有沒有學到"},{"start":932.64,"end":934.64,"text":"是我們現在要問的"},{"start":934.64,"end":936.64,"text":"那法官有沒有學到"},{"start":936.64,"end":939.64,"text":"就等於說他在裁判上"},{"start":939.64,"end":942.64,"text":"他在審判過程中"},{"start":942.64,"end":943.64,"text":"他有沒有表現"},{"start":943.64,"end":946.64,"text":"審判是一個自然的落實"},{"start":946.64,"end":947.64,"text":"但是就是說"},{"start":947.64,"end":949.64,"text":"這個是我們可以回來監測"},{"start":949.64,"end":950.64,"text":"但我們不可能"},{"start":950.64,"end":951.64,"text":"直接影響他的審判"},{"start":951.64,"end":953.64,"text":"他要獨立判斷"},{"start":953.64,"end":955.64,"text":"可是培訓有沒有效果"},{"start":955.64,"end":957.64,"text":"我想時間有限"},{"start":957.64,"end":960.64,"text":"這個部分是全國律師聯合"},{"start":960.64,"end":962.64,"text":"會跟台北律師公會"},{"start":962.64,"end":963.64,"text":"逐步去核對說"},{"start":963.64,"end":966.64,"text":"其實這個都是當事人自行引用"},{"start":966.64,"end":968.64,"text":"298件很少是你們的法官"},{"start":968.64,"end":970.64,"text":"而且高度引用同一個判決"},{"start":970.64,"end":972.64,"text":"那基本上就是"},{"start":972.64,"end":975.64,"text":"所以我們直接來講"},{"start":975.64,"end":978.64,"text":"我覺得全體法官涵蓋率"},{"start":978.64,"end":980.64,"text":"當然應該是你的憑良指標"},{"start":980.64,"end":983.64,"text":"但是你要有憑良監督機制"},{"start":983.64,"end":984.64,"text":"好不好"},{"start":984.64,"end":986.64,"text":"你到底去上課"},{"start":986.64,"end":987.64,"text":"有沒有學到"},{"start":987.64,"end":989.64,"text":"你要找出憑良監督機制"},{"start":989.64,"end":991.64,"text":"最後你要全面盤點"},{"start":991.64,"end":993.64,"text":"系統性的去研析"},{"start":993.64,"end":995.64,"text":"CEDAW到底是面臨什麼挑戰"},{"start":995.64,"end":997.64,"text":"為什麼大家都沒有引用"},{"start":997.64,"end":1000.64,"text":"來增進我們CEDAW國際委員"},{"start":1000.64,"end":1003.64,"text":"來台灣我們請他們來"},{"start":1003.64,"end":1005.64,"text":"每次都有提到司法院"},{"start":1005.64,"end":1006.64,"text":"好不好"},{"start":1006.64,"end":1009.64,"text":"那不應該浪費他們寶貴的意見"},{"start":1009.64,"end":1010.64,"text":"那多久之內"},{"start":1010.64,"end":1012.64,"text":"我想不是立刻可以達到"},{"start":1012.64,"end":1014.64,"text":"做法要不要出來"},{"start":1014.64,"end":1016.64,"text":"多久之內可以給本席報告"},{"start":1017.64,"end":1019.64,"text":"這個應該要三個月"},{"start":1019.64,"end":1021.64,"text":"是不是給我們三個月的時間"},{"start":1021.64,"end":1022.64,"text":"三個月"},{"start":1022.64,"end":1023.64,"text":"伸出方法"},{"start":1023.64,"end":1024.6399999999999,"text":"兩個月可不可以"},{"start":1024.6399999999999,"end":1026.6399999999999,"text":"方法三個月"},{"start":1026.6399999999999,"end":1027.6399999999999,"text":"因為這個還要跟法官學院"},{"start":1027.6399999999999,"end":1028.6399999999999,"text":"大家共同來動手"},{"start":1028.6399999999999,"end":1030.6399999999999,"text":"三個月現在是8月中"},{"start":1030.6399999999999,"end":1031.6399999999999,"text":"對 我11月提出"},{"start":1031.6399999999999,"end":1032.6399999999999,"text":"11月中"},{"start":1032.6399999999999,"end":1033.6399999999999,"text":"對"},{"start":1033.6399999999999,"end":1034.6399999999999,"text":"好 中不要再比了"},{"start":1034.6399999999999,"end":1036.6399999999999,"text":"最重要是我們提出來要做到"},{"start":1036.6399999999999,"end":1037.6399999999999,"text":"對 要做到"},{"start":1037.6399999999999,"end":1039.6399999999999,"text":"我也不希望你應付我"},{"start":1039.6399999999999,"end":1041.6399999999999,"text":"對 重點在這個地方"},{"start":1041.6399999999999,"end":1042.6399999999999,"text":"那就三個月了"},{"start":1042.6399999999999,"end":1044.6399999999999,"text":"要有具體的方法"},{"start":1044.6399999999999,"end":1045.6399999999999,"text":"我們會方法"},{"start":1045.64,"end":1047.64,"text":"不要再像我們今天這樣子"},{"start":1047.64,"end":1048.64,"text":"對 沒錯"},{"start":1048.64,"end":1049.64,"text":"無限循環"},{"start":1049.64,"end":1050.64,"text":"謝謝秘書長"},{"start":1050.64,"end":1051.64,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:15.457500+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，我第一題先請黃次長，待會再請高秘書長。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:15.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:16.440000+08:00","text":"請黃次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:18.373333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:18.373333+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:19.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:20.140000+08:00","text":"次長，您好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:20.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:42.440000+08:00","text":"今天主要是追蹤我4月30號首次質詢、7月22號再次質詢的主題，就是請法務部研議各國經驗關於性侵罪裡面所謂國際說的積極同意定義，7月22號的時候剛好就是您嘛！對。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:43.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:49.536000+08:00","text":"您已經承諾兩個月內會提供可行性報告，次長，還記得這件事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:49.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:20:53.821333+08:00","text":"我知道，就是「only Yes means Yes」這個原則嘛！對。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T12:20:54.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:21:00.730000+08:00","text":"我們當時承諾要再去搜尋委員提到的法國與丹麥的立法例，不要專門只引美國的立法例。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:21:00.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:21:11.902857+08:00","text":"對，謝謝次長都有記得內容，就是不要只看美國的，我們看丹麥與法國這些在性別平等方面相當不錯的國家。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:21:12.306667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:21:22.320000+08:00","text":"我今天主要是：第一個，怕你們忘記，因為兩個月快到了；第二個，也再次告訴您為什麼我特別關心這件事。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:21:23.268571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:21:29.460000+08:00","text":"次長，您知道我們的國際公約，就是CEDAW公約已經國內法化嘛？當然。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:21:30.253333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:21:46.912000+08:00","text":"其中裡面有談到性別暴力的定義，就是基於性別歧視與權力壓迫，定義的部分我就不再講，我是特別提到裡面的第三十五號一般性建議其實就是在講這個部分。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:21:47.405714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:22:08.221538+08:00","text":"它有提到確保對包含婚內強姦、熟人強姦或約會強姦等性犯罪的界定以缺少自願同意為基礎，並將脅迫情形要考慮在內，所以這所謂的缺少自願同意就是我們現在討論的這一題。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:22:09.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:22:32.140000+08:00","text":"因此，CEDAW的第二條就是，締約國應該採取一切適當辦法推行相關政策，也請法務部要落實這個公約，再次研議各國立法經驗，評估刑法妨害性自主罪章是不是應該要採積極同意，所以這部分次長基本上可以同意吧？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T12:22:33.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:22:42.269091+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們上次已經承諾會在兩個月內（9月22號）以前把相關的評估意見送到貴委員會及委員的手上。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:22:42.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:22:55.600000+08:00","text":"好，也希望你們在這過程中可以多看已經國內法化的CEDAW公約，他們對於剛剛我所講的自願同意的各種論述，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:22:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:22:57.480000+08:00","text":"謝謝，請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:22:57.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:00.905000+08:00","text":"我們就期待你兩個月……應該是什麼時候會……922。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:01.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:08.030769+08:00","text":"922給我們報告，希望這一次能夠比上次更嚴謹，能夠清楚看到各個國家，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:08.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:09.826667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:10.963636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:13.058182+08:00","text":"再來請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:13.485714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:14.314286+08:00","text":"有請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:14.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:15.540000+08:00","text":"委員好。您好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:16.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:53.258182+08:00","text":"我今天也是想了解法官學院怎麼辦理CEDAW的各種相關訓練，我們知道法官學院其實有一些課程，包含我看到有法官職前研習班，也有2024年增設了強化CEDAW於法院之運用專班，還有你們也有司法院暨所屬各機關推動性別主流化實施計畫，有一個計畫已經結束了，還有一個計畫正在進行中。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:53.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:23:56.167273+08:00","text":"這部分秘書長應該了解，對不對？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:23:57.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:24:01.680000+08:00","text":"關於這個實施計畫，細節我不了解，可是這是我們正在執行中的。好。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:24:02.115556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:24:13.025714+08:00","text":"您知不知道關於CEDAW的應用跟司法院的關係，目前最被大家詬病的問題是什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:24:15.128889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:24:57.090000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實CEDAW這種理念真的是我們必須要讓法官們學習、貫徹，我相信這個得要內化成自己的……我不敢講信仰，可是自己必須要有思考模式，這是我們司法院一直在藉由課程、演講，希望法官不是只看到法律，而是要去了解所處理的當事人之間的問題。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:24:58.323636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:24:59.287273+08:00","text":"秘書長很了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:24:59.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:04.224444+08:00","text":"我想請問您，您如何知道法官到底懂不懂CEDAW啊？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:04.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:11.590000+08:00","text":"你們訓練了半天，到底他們懂或不懂，你們的判準是什麼？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:12.506667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:20.440000+08:00","text":"可能外界第一個就看判決的形成，這個是法官對外的語言表示。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:20.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:22.458182+08:00","text":"就是從法官的判決，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:22.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:25.700000+08:00","text":"對，還有他的整個審理過程。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:28.168571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:34.960000+08:00","text":"如果司法院重視這個東西的話，你們有什麼機制來確定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:35.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:25:44.635000+08:00","text":"譬如說我們跟其他國家比，我們的法官真的懂了CEDAW，而且有落實在判決中，你這個指標是什麼？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:25:44.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:01.246667+08:00","text":"我相信各位都能夠了解，能夠考上法官，他的資質都不錯、他的學習能力也應該不錯，可是我們要尊重他的獨立性，所以就司法院來講，我們就是廣設課程，而且是要要求……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:01.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:09.986667+08:00","text":"我自己也是老師在上課，上了半天，有時候學生在滑手機嘛，所以到底如何知道學生有沒有學到？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:10.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:20.865000+08:00","text":"當法官要上課的時候，他在法官學院也是學生，那到底他有沒有學到CEDAW，你們怎麼判斷？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:21.725714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:27.054286+08:00","text":"因為整個是學習課程的設計，我相信這跟學習課程設計有關係……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:27.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:30.390000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我們不用繞來繞去，作為秘書長……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:30.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:31.390000+08:00","text":"我要判斷……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:30.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:41.273333+08:00","text":"你怎麼知道法官有沒有了解CEDAW、有應用在你剛剛講的判決還有過程，你有沒有任何的機制跟指標？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:41.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:43.106667+08:00","text":"最簡單地，看判決就知道。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:43.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:47.258182+08:00","text":"你們怎麼看他有沒有運用到CEDAW？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:49.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:26:58.015000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們司法院對於法官是不是有了解CEDAW，當然是從判決來看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:26:58.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:00.421818+08:00","text":"那依你們的了解，你知不知道結果是什麼？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:02.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:05.523333+08:00","text":"當然，我們要講說正在學習中！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:06.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:08.240000+08:00","text":"不是，那他到底學習好了沒有？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:10.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:19.506667+08:00","text":"就是只能要求他一直學習，因為我們不可能……這個一定是一直學習，然後從……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:20.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:24.128889+08:00","text":"一直學習，然後學到最後有沒有及格都不知道！","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:24.128889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:25.128889+08:00","text":"沒有，從他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:24.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:31.240000+08:00","text":"一直開課，不知道作為學生的法官是在滑手機還是有學到CEDAW。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:31.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:39.315000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，上課他是不是滑手機，我當然不能講，可是從判決的呈現……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:39.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:42.876364+08:00","text":"那判決怎麼呈現他有沒有了解CEDAW？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:43.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:50.673333+08:00","text":"時間不夠了，真的沒有辦法在這邊繞了，您剛剛很多答案都答得這麼好、這麼直接，還被稱讚，這題的話……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:50.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:54.040000+08:00","text":"不是，因為委員問的一定要從判決來看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:54.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:55.840000+08:00","text":"判決你們有在看嗎？有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:57.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:58.606667+08:00","text":"我們都在統計呀。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:58.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:27:59.960000+08:00","text":"指標是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:27:59.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:00.960000+08:00","text":"那您講個指標，指標是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:00.573333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:05.615000+08:00","text":"他對於這個……等於判決分析一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:05.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:07.440000+08:00","text":"那分析的結果是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:07.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:10.973333+08:00","text":"當然，我們還有再進步的必要！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:11.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:14.240000+08:00","text":"不是，現在的情況如何嘛，目前的結果是什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:14.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:17.190000+08:00","text":"我當然不能說我很滿意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:17.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:19.258182+08:00","text":"那你不滿意的指標是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:19.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:29.954286+08:00","text":"我覺得就是個案裡面法官關於這些的思考度，你如果問我個人，我覺得必須精進！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:31.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:34.055385+08:00","text":"好，但是您還是沒有跟我說指標啦。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:34.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:28:56.015000+08:00","text":"我先跟你講一下，國際審查委員已經多次說，CEDAW的培訓不應該只是必修科目，更應該從學校法律系所，但那個部分不是你們管的，而檢察官以及法官的職前培訓部分，與法務部也有關，那法官這部分當然是你們的法官學院。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:28:56.906667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:29:13.540000+08:00","text":"我們也去查了你們的上課情況，你們有44%的CEDAW或性別主流化課程是線上學習，我問了曾經幫你們上課的老師，他們真的不知道線上學習的效果如何，因為是線上嘛。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:29:13.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:29:15.617778+08:00","text":"那現場會不會比較好？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:29:15.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:29:29.240000+08:00","text":"我們假設比較好，但是因為你們沒有任何的評量機制，所以真正的效果不確定，只知道人數，我們看到你們的指標就只有辦理場次跟課程參訓率。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:29:30.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:29:57.211429+08:00","text":"但是今年國際公約的國際審查委員……他們都是聯合國的CEDAW國際審查委員，他們再次提到，你們應該要強化裁判書引用CEDAW的數量跟品質；然後國際審查主席說，臺灣把CEDAW國內法化，但是司法部門是否真正落實CEDAW是一大問題。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:29:57.692632+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:30:06.840000+08:00","text":"如果我們來看裁判書引用CEDAW的數量跟品質，那真的非常抱歉，非常少！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:30:07.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:30:26.673333+08:00","text":"而且專家們、司法改革團體認為你們的數據混水的可能性很高，就算有混水好了，跟兒童權利公約、兩公約、身障公約比起來，CEDAW公約引用非常少！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:30:26.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:30:34.715000+08:00","text":"兒童的權利都比較被重視，兒童權利公約引用超過1萬件，CEDAW只有298件。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:30:35.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:30:53.140000+08:00","text":"而且要跟秘書長講，不是法官引用的，而是受害端這一端引用的，而且高度集中在引用同一個案例，因此很多時候算起來還不完全算是。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:30:53.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:12.406667+08:00","text":"所以你們的法官幾乎很少引用，更不用跟兒童權利公約、兩公約、身障公約比，為什麼對婦女這麼重要的CEDAW幾乎不被你們的法官了解、也很少被引用？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:13.073333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:15.406667+08:00","text":"這真的是一大問題！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:15.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:16.854286+08:00","text":"是不是一大問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:17.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:21.777500+08:00","text":"它難道不比兒童權利公約跟身障公約重要嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:22.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:24.840000+08:00","text":"而且幾乎都不是你們的法官在引用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:25.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:33.387059+08:00","text":"我只能跟委員報告，因為CEDAW公約如果已經內化成我們的法律，法官就可能不會用CEDAW公約來……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:33.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:35.727500+08:00","text":"不是，CEDAW公約已經國內法化，但是從來沒有被引用。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:36.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:44.525714+08:00","text":"對，我的意思是，我們的具體法條如果跟它符合，當然法官就……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:45.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:48.840000+08:00","text":"他如果根本就不懂這個法條跟相關的精神，他就不會引用嘛……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:48.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:49.840000+08:00","text":"對，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:49.173333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:52.697143+08:00","text":"不然為什麼兒童權利公約引用超過1萬次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:53.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:31:57.673333+08:00","text":"對，如委員所說的，其實我剛剛已經跟委員承認……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:31:58.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:00.540000+08:00","text":"那婦女有比兒童不重要嗎？沒有！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:00.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:01.540000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛，對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:01.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:06.809231+08:00","text":"其實這個如委員所了解的，司法院關於這個是一直在呼籲，各種……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:07.373333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:16.354286+08:00","text":"不是，我剛剛講呼籲可能沒有用嘛，就是你沒有指標、你沒有在了解、你沒有在精進，那個指標是什麼？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:18.782857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:25.515000+08:00","text":"剛剛這個指標你也沒有說出來，是我告訴您的，秘書長，而且這個指標很難看啊！","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:25.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:32.367273+08:00","text":"沒錯，可是我必須說，他沒有引用是因為我們相關規定有了呢？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:32.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:35.367273+08:00","text":"還是我們的法官完全忽視？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:35.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:32:36.306667+08:00","text":"我覺得……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:32:36.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:00.306667+08:00","text":"那你現在連法官懂不懂CEDAW都沒有辦法判斷，光是上課，我剛剛講線上課程快要占一半，他真的可能同時在做其他事嘛，即便上完課，上完了、註冊完了、出現在什麼場次裡頭，雖然那個3小時、幾小時做到了，他可能沒有學到任何東西啊，是不是有可能？","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:00.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:03.417778+08:00","text":"我不能說沒有可能，可是我覺得不要輕忽……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:03.417778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:04.640000+08:00","text":"可能性不低吧？沒有！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:04.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:06.390000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:06.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:13.306667+08:00","text":"但是從這個數字來看，我們真的懷疑法官懂不懂CEDAW相關的國內法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:13.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:17.497143+08:00","text":"當然，就如同委員所說的，我們一直……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:17.497143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:18.497143+08:00","text":"他比較懂兒童權利公約啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:17.782857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:33.528889+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，其實從這幾個看來，對於把CEDAW公約內化進來，也是如委員所了解的，我們一直在強化，可是我不敢說法官是不是完全catch到，這是真的努力再努力……","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:34.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:39.409231+08:00","text":"因為你完全沒有一個機制了解他是不是知道了CEDAW公約。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:40.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:42.306667+08:00","text":"就只能……當然，我們希望能夠……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:42.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:44.240000+08:00","text":"我們不能只希望啦！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:44.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:48.440000+08:00","text":"可是跟委員報告，要讓法官了解一定是上課嘛。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:48.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:52.473333+08:00","text":"對，除了上課之外，你如何知道上課有沒有效果？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:52.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:33:59.390000+08:00","text":"為什麼你的法官學院跟您這邊沒有任何更進一步的機制呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:33:59.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:05.440000+08:00","text":"可是我相信對法官來說，上課學習就是一個最重要的來源……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:05.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:10.390000+08:00","text":"對，但我自己也是大學老師，上課很可能學生都在滑手機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:10.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:15.440000+08:00","text":"可是法官的學習重點是他要應用在他的裁判，我不可能……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:15.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:22.417778+08:00","text":"他沒有應用CEDAW公約，我們怎麼在鬼打牆，我們兩個在這邊重複，時間已經超過了……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:22.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:24.440000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們實際上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:24.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:25.540000+08:00","text":"那您說我們的改善機制是什麼，好不好？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:25.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:27.440000+08:00","text":"秘書長，改善機制是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:27.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:34.306667+08:00","text":"如何增加CEDAW的應用，它不能夠離兒童權利公約……298件對1萬1,800件。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:36.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:54.306667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，當然法官是靠上課，就如同委員所說的，我們可能不是線上上課，如果所呈現的數字讓外界認為法官太不重視，當然對法官的學習過程，我們就會強制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:54.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:57.367273+08:00","text":"那你用什麼方式來精進呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:57.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:34:58.473333+08:00","text":"來看他們理不理解？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:34:58.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:00.390000+08:00","text":"可以想出個方法吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:00.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:06.306667+08:00","text":"最重要就如委員所說的，第一個，法官是優秀的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:06.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:08.458182+08:00","text":"我們當然認為法官很優秀！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:08.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:10.390000+08:00","text":"對，他就是要來上課，然後上課……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:11.084444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:13.390000+08:00","text":"你們本來就規定他有時數嘛。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:13.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:18.473333+08:00","text":"對，可能如委員所說的，他線上有沒有專心啊……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:18.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:23.390000+08:00","text":"不管是線上或者是實體，你要有一個機制嘛。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:24.094545+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:43.473333+08:00","text":"當然就線上上課來講，是有機制的，只是他有沒有學到，這是我們現在要問的，那法官有沒有學到，就等於他在裁判上、他在審判過程中，他有沒有表現。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:43.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:46.340000+08:00","text":"審判是一個自然的落實？對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:47.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:53.306667+08:00","text":"這個我們可以回來監測，但我們不可能直接影響他的審判，他要獨立判斷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:53.306667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:54.306667+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:53.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:35:55.417778+08:00","text":"可是培訓有沒有效果？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:35:55.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:24.306667+08:00","text":"我想時間有限，這個部分是全國律師聯合會跟台北律師公會逐步去核對，其實這都是當事人自行引用，298件很少是你們的法官……而且高度引用同一個判決，基本上就是……我們直接來講，我覺得全體法官涵蓋率當然應該是你的評量指標，但是你要有評量監督機制，好不好？可以。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:25.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:35.497143+08:00","text":"去上課到底有沒有學到，你要找出評量監督機制，最後你要全面盤點、系統性的去研析CEDAW到底是面臨什麼挑戰？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:35.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:37.440000+08:00","text":"為什麼大家都沒有引用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:37.854286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:46.306667+08:00","text":"以增進CEDAW國際委員來臺灣，我們請他們來，每次都有提到司法院，好不好？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:46.870769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:49.409231+08:00","text":"不應該浪費他們寶貴的意見。是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:49.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:54.354286+08:00","text":"那多久之內可以……我想不是立刻可以達到，但作法要不要出來？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:54.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:36:56.458182+08:00","text":"多久之內可以給本席報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:36:59.806667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:01.473333+08:00","text":"可不可以給我們3個月的時間？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:01.973333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:03.390000+08:00","text":"3個月生出方法？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:03.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:04.497143+08:00","text":"兩個月可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:04.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:06.240000+08:00","text":"方法，3個月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:06.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:08.068571+08:00","text":"因為這個還要跟法官學院大家共同有共識……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:08.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:10.390000+08:00","text":"3個月，現在是8月中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:10.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:12.640000+08:00","text":"對，我11月提出。11月中？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:13.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:14.497143+08:00","text":"好，月中，不要再底了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:14.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:16.473333+08:00","text":"其實最重要是我們提出來要做到。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:16.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:19.417778+08:00","text":"對，要做到，我也不希望你應付我，好不好？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:19.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:21.390000+08:00","text":"對，重點在這個地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:21.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:24.354286+08:00","text":"好，那就3個月，要有具體的方法。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:24.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:25.440000+08:00","text":"好，我們會方法……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:25.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:27.458182+08:00","text":"不要再像我們今天這樣子，好不好？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:28.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:29.390000+08:00","text":"無限循環。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:29.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:30.390000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:29.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:30.440000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝秘書長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:30.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:31.390000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:31.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:33.604286+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:33.904286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:39.904286+08:00","text":"接下來是蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:40.204286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:45.061429+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:45.361429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:48.504286+08:00","text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-19T12:37:48.804286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-19T12:37:57.375714+08:00","text":"也提醒林淑芬委員，今天外委會的委員質詢時間5分鐘，麻煩請您掌握，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}