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"text":"剛剛你講的中小微多元振興發展方案114年116億，到今年反而是減少了7億啊！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:53.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:54.600000+08:00","text":"次長，不對吧！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:56.818182+08:00","text":"你們剛剛不是說要解決嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:08.333333+08:00","text":"所以還編了109億，但你看一看，我們的科技發展計畫預算去年是1,396億，將近1,400億；今年成長到1,665億，成長了快270億！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:14.750000+08:00","text":"但是我們中小微的，你說要重視、要解決困境，結果今年不增反減，怎麼回事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:22.800000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為這個會牽涉到各部會，我們這個統計是各部會的相關計畫……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:24.894737+08:00","text":"所以是其他部會的問題，不是你們經濟部的問題？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:25.923077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:27.769231+08:00","text":"我們再了解一下到底這個預算是……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:28.500000+08:00","text":"我就說嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:28.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:31.200000+08:00","text":"我星期一就提出來啦，你有充足的時間準備。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:31.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:33.857143+08:00","text":"來，我們繼續往下看為什麼會這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:37.250000+08:00","text":"這到底是經濟部、整個政府，還是整個臺灣發展的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:37.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:44.777778+08:00","text":"我們看一下我們資訊電子產業，包括電子產品、光學製品，加上電子零組件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:55.666667+08:00","text":"先看電腦電子部分，114年（去年）上市櫃營業利益是3,705億，如果加上電子零組件是2兆1,713億。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:09.750000+08:00","text":"如果我們放到資訊電子產業的話，臺灣產業產值它的配比大概是2兆5,000億，對上非資訊電子產業的7,000億，有沒有看到很懸殊？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:10.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:10.900000+08:00","text":"這是臺灣的發展情況啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:12.894737+08:00","text":"你要說這是行政院的問題還是經濟部的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:16.789474+08:00","text":"這就是目前半導體跟AI大爆發造成的情況。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:31.384615+08:00","text":"那麼114年的上市櫃營業利益率，電子零組件高達三成，製造業的總體製造業大概是一成二，非製造業只剩一成，這就是目前我們的現況，也是今天我們講的困境。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:37.733333+08:00","text":"資訊電子產業占全體從業人口的7%啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:40.750000+08:00","text":"寫十三點五分之一，你可能算不出來，7%。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:00:24.700000+08:00","text":"我們的工業人口有400萬，其中的製造業將近300萬，而在這個資料當中，電子零組件60萬，電腦電子跟光學製品將近25萬，合計兩者的資訊電子產業85萬，但是這85萬以外的非資訊電子產業的製造業超過200萬、非製造業的工業超過100萬、服務業高達709萬，加上農業部門，我們整個非資訊電子產業人口是1,077萬，相比於資訊電子產業，次長有沒有發現我們全國的從業人員高達1,162萬，資訊電子產業只占7%。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:00:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:00:39.700000+08:00","text":"但是你看看這些高科技產業的營業利益是其他部門的3倍，利益率是人家的3.5倍，賺得多、很會賺，且他的從業人員只有占7%。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:00:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:00:46.750000+08:00","text":"回到政府資源配置，更誇張，差距高達16倍，這什麼意思？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:00:47.692308+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:00:56.833333+08:00","text":"你115年的科技發展計畫是1,665億，對上中小微企業多元振興發展方案的109億，次長，有沒有發現問題在哪裡了？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:00:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:14.333333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，過去我們在高科技產業，因為全球AI崛起的結果，所以為什麼總統這次特別對中小微企業轉型升級要加碼預算，就是要解決這個問題。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:15.352941+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:19.888889+08:00","text":"今年對中小微企業的資源投入不足，我們明年開始會增加嗎？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:21.800000+08:00","text":"對，我們會增加這部分的預算。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:22.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:34.666667+08:00","text":"好，我告訴你增加預算要注意哪些問題，就單單看115年1,665億好了，就算是在電子產業、高科技部門，政府資源集中在高科技，而且集中在七都。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:50.666667+08:00","text":"你們經濟部回去把對中小微企業的計畫、把產業技術司所提供的計畫，將去年度跟今年度的執行項目盤點一下，都在北部、都在六都啊！","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:52.500000+08:00","text":"我屏東呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:52.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:55.818182+08:00","text":"我翻了半天，在某個項目下，我只找一家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:57.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:11.888889+08:00","text":"我們認為政府為了要讓我們的傳產能夠升級，以現有的技術司科技專案計畫來講，有學界科專、法人科專、企業科專，那一天我才知道原來法人科專是七大七小。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:12.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:23.666667+08:00","text":"學界跟法人的部分，學界是要從零到一、從無到有；法人科專是要應用到業界；而業界科專要市場化，對不對？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:24.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:25.846154+08:00","text":"在這裡產發署的角色是什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:32.750000+08:00","text":"就是要協助相關的技術能夠商品化、能夠落地。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:34.833333+08:00","text":"是，我們怎麼衡量他有沒有做好？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:36.421053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:39.789474+08:00","text":"當然就是要看它未來產值的增加有多少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:40.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:45.888889+08:00","text":"好，那天李署長在的公聽會，我就有提出來，他有聽到。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:01.600000+08:00","text":"我說以目前我們的法人科專來講，我們編了預算，每100元的投入，他說會有30元回報，分別是15元的技轉收入、15元是輔導收入，我就問一個問題，其他70元呢？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:03.846154+08:00","text":"其他70元，你怎麼去衡量他的績效？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:21.666667+08:00","text":"到目前為止，從經濟部技術司提供的資料來看，法人科專每投入100元，他說會創造30元回報，很清楚可以看到15元是技轉、15元是服務，可是那70元怎麼衡量？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:23.833333+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法去衡量他的績效？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:25.857143+08:00","text":"我相信應該是有績效的，但怎麼衡量？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:45.500000+08:00","text":"我建議他把這些法人科專、企業科專投入的資源，對應這些企業成長、後來的營業額、資本額的成長，至少再對應一個部分，賦稅署署長在這裡，去查一下這些接受我們補助的法人科專、企業科專，他的成果有沒有創造稅收？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:47.750000+08:00","text":"這可不可以勾稽的到？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:48.666667+08:00","text":"可以嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:56.800000+08:00","text":"不是按照他們自己寫的報告說輔導了幾家，這幾家欣欣向榮、成長很好，你看看他繳的稅有沒有更增加嘛！","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:58.750000+08:00","text":"如果繳的稅有增加，我就相信。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:00.777778+08:00","text":"當然不是馬上增加啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:12.750000+08:00","text":"可能要看個5年的成果，所以是不是可以就這個部分，未來衡量績效的時候，可以勾連到財政部、勾連到金管會指標，可不可以？可以。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:13.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:21.666667+08:00","text":"衡量一個公司的成長，可以從繳的稅、營業規模、股票市值的成長，可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:24.818182+08:00","text":"我再跟主席要求一些時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:45.777778+08:00","text":"其實傳產不是那麼不堪，我們目前談模具沖壓，舉個例，我一直強調我們臺灣的傳產有幾個很厲害的隱形冠軍，有模具沖壓、金屬加工、小型引擎，你來看看現在最紅的川湖，它在20年前是不是傳產？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:46.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:47.750000+08:00","text":"它在2000年之前就是傳產啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:48.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:48.750000+08:00","text":"它做什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:02.714286+08:00","text":"做傢俱、做滑軌，現在它做到AI伺服器的精密導軌，它一年投入在它的專利保護，可以將近1億臺幣，我們講義美好了，義美是做什麼的？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:04.600000+08:00","text":"做食品的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:06.833333+08:00","text":"你能想像它現在做機器狗嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:07.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:08.600000+08:00","text":"它是傳產啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:09.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:12.714286+08:00","text":"我說雷虎科技以前是做玩具的，它現在是做什麼？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:13.600000+08:00","text":"做無人機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:37.666667+08:00","text":"所以我覺得經濟部對傳產的思維跟想像……就如在星期一你們報告對中小微企業轉型升級與產業創新條例法制之檢討，當中你們特別講到，你們會把金融科技發展與創新實驗條例、資源循環推動法及人工智慧基本法放進去，對不對？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:38.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:39.714286+08:00","text":"漏了一個什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:40.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:42.833333+08:00","text":"有沒有聽過無人載具科技創新實驗條例？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:45+08:00","text":"次長，你有沒有聽過？有。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:48.833333+08:00","text":"你知道這個主管機關是誰嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:50+08:00","text":"是我們經濟部。對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:50.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:51+08:00","text":"什麼立的？2018年。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:52.750000+08:00","text":"為了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:09.800000+08:00","text":"為了自駕車立的，但是我看了它的法架構其實很完整，陸、海、空都有，而且在很多節點的調適上，針對我們未來的護國神山、無人載具產業已經有大概的輪廓都規劃下來了。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:10.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:34.750000+08:00","text":"在昨天的記者會，就這幾個部分，我去盤點這個實驗條例，目前所謂的無人機專法，有民眾黨黨團版的、有國民黨黨團版的、有賴士葆委員個人版的，我把它跟現況盤點一下，大概有四個優勢：第一，這個實驗條例定義簡要、涵蓋完整，至於現況跟藍白版的提案功能混雜、掛一漏萬。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:35.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:24.571429+08:00","text":"對於無人載具產業所需要申請的核備程序，這個實驗條例是單一窗口、聯席審查，目前的情況跟藍白版的提案要自行跑件、主管審查；至於我們需要的測試場域，目前實驗條例是一次申請、經常使用，但現況是逐次申請、限時使用，最重要的是法令競合，我們對無人載具有相關的法，有船舶法、有民用航空法、有道交條例、有船員法，還有我們很多很多關於無線電磁波頻譜的管制等等，這些在實驗條例裡面排除限制、一致到位，可是相對的，在目前的無人機專法當中，他們縱使有討論到這些，但管制法令很多、條文不清楚。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:32.823529+08:00","text":"我們的實驗條例把所有的條次都列出來了，次長，你們回去要不要再看一下這個實驗條例？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:34.800000+08:00","text":"目前這個實驗條例在經濟部是誰在輔導？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:39.800000+08:00","text":"是產業技術司主責。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:41.857143+08:00","text":"產業技術司今天不在嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:44.785714+08:00","text":"回去可不可以請你們再盤點一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:06.714286+08:00","text":"針對目前你們要協助中小微企業轉型升級，無人載具是一個大好機會；我再強調一次，模具沖壓、金屬加工、小型引擎，從川湖、義美到雷虎，我們都看得到傳產轉型為未來的護國神山是有機會的，但是需要法令的協助。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:07.352941+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:10.833333+08:00","text":"這個實驗條例可不可以協助未來傳產轉型為無人載具產業啊？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:11.750000+08:00","text":"是，可以來協助。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:12.666667+08:00","text":"可以嘛？對！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:27.500000+08:00","text":"好，所以請經濟部研議，針對科技專案補助的產業跟區域均衡，怎麼樣建立你們政策資源總帳、怎麼去勾稽，可不可以提出一份報告給本席？可以。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:28.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:35.666667+08:00","text":"也請你們將創新實證機制納入無人載具科技創新實驗條例的方案，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:37.846154+08:00","text":"這個部分我想我們可以來研議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:38.833333+08:00","text":"你們可以來研議。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:39.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:49.750000+08:00","text":"這部法令是在2018年訂定的，現在已經過了8年，可能就需要補充，補充後就可以適用無人載具產業，可不可以？是！","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:50.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:56.666667+08:00","text":"可不可以在一個月內也給本席知道一下，對這個實驗條例，你們打算補充哪些、修改哪些，可以嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:57.666667+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:57.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:58.666667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:58.750000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:59.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:01.250000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:01.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:05.264286+08:00","text":"接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時55分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請經濟部何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：鍾委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好。因為本週一召委排了一個同樣的公聽會，我的題目也是一樣，所以您應該對這個題目跟本席所要詢問的部分有所準備了。我們要強調的就是，政府的科專要兼顧區域跟產業的均衡，尤其是研發成果要能創造我們傳產未來的市場升級，傳產要升級，市場就要先升級。","請問次長，今天的題目涉及現在中小微企業發展的困境，目前政府有什麼樣的因應作為呢？"],["何次長晉滄：其實我們在融資貸款、技術升級還有市場拓銷等等，都有一些相關的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是我上面寫的嘛！普惠貸款、租稅優惠、保證融資額度及成數、數位轉型、淨零轉型還有發展國內外通路，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們正在研究將「中小微企業多元振興發展計畫」法制化，要推動一個升級發展條例，是不是？有沒有制定一個發展條例？"],["何次長晉滄：我們會把它定位在中小微企業轉型升級發展條例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有吧！"],["何次長晉滄：所以這個是現有執行的「中小微企業多元振興發展計畫」。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要推動這個條例的立法是不是？"],["何次長晉滄：是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前你們在這發展計畫當中，今年度編列109億，看起來不少，但是我們往下看。根據審計部的報告，產業發展政策攸關結構轉型及國家競爭力，但是目前我們未能均衡引導或妥當配置。他說政府的科技創新資源持續擴張，但是集中在半導體。剛剛你講的中小微多元振興發展方案114年116億，到今年反而是減少了7億啊！","次長，不對吧！你們剛剛不是說要解決嗎？所以還編了109億，但你看一看，我們的科技發展計畫預算去年是1,396億，將近1,400億；今年成長到1,665億，成長了快270億！但是我們中小微的，你說要重視、要解決困境，結果今年不增反減，怎麼回事？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，因為這個會牽涉到各部會，我們這個統計是各部會的相關計畫……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是其他部會的問題，不是你們經濟部的問題？"],["何次長晉滄：我們再了解一下到底這個預算是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我就說嘛！我星期一就提出來啦，你有充足的時間準備。","來，我們繼續往下看為什麼會這樣子。這到底是經濟部、整個政府，還是整個臺灣發展的問題？我們看一下我們資訊電子產業，包括電子產品、光學製品，加上電子零組件。先看電腦電子部分，114年（去年）上市櫃營業利益是3,705億，如果加上電子零組件是2兆1,713億。如果我們放到資訊電子產業的話，臺灣產業產值它的配比大概是2兆5,000億，對上非資訊電子產業的7,000億，有沒有看到很懸殊？這是臺灣的發展情況啊！你要說這是行政院的問題還是經濟部的問題？這就是目前半導體跟AI大爆發造成的情況。那麼114年的上市櫃營業利益率，電子零組件高達三成，製造業的總體製造業大概是一成二，非製造業只剩一成，這就是目前我們的現況，也是今天我們講的困境。","我們再看看從業人口：資訊電子產業占全體從業人口的7%啦！寫十三點五分之一，你可能算不出來，7%。我們的工業人口有400萬，其中的製造業將近300萬，而在這個資料當中，電子零組件60萬，電腦電子跟光學製品將近25萬，合計兩者的資訊電子產業85萬，但是這85萬以外的非資訊電子產業的製造業超過200萬、非製造業的工業超過100萬、服務業高達709萬，加上農業部門，我們整個非資訊電子產業人口是1,077萬，相比於資訊電子產業，次長有沒有發現我們全國的從業人員高達1,162萬，資訊電子產業只占7%。","但是你看看這些高科技產業的營業利益是其他部門的3倍，利益率是人家的3.5倍，賺得多、很會賺，且他的從業人員只有占7%。回到政府資源配置，更誇張，差距高達16倍，這什麼意思？你115年的科技發展計畫是1,665億，對上中小微企業多元振興發展方案的109億，次長，有沒有發現問題在哪裡了？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，過去我們在高科技產業，因為全球AI崛起的結果，所以為什麼總統這次特別對中小微企業轉型升級要加碼預算，就是要解決這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今年對中小微企業的資源投入不足，我們明年開始會增加嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：對，我們會增加這部分的預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你增加預算要注意哪些問題，就單單看115年1,665億好了，就算是在電子產業、高科技部門，政府資源集中在高科技，而且集中在七都。你們經濟部回去把對中小微企業的計畫、把產業技術司所提供的計畫，將去年度跟今年度的執行項目盤點一下，都在北部、都在六都啊！我屏東呢？我翻了半天，在某個項目下，我只找一家。","我們認為政府為了要讓我們的傳產能夠升級，以現有的技術司科技專案計畫來講，有學界科專、法人科專、企業科專，那一天我才知道原來法人科專是七大七小。學界跟法人的部分，學界是要從零到一、從無到有；法人科專是要應用到業界；而業界科專要市場化，對不對？在這裡產發署的角色是什麼？"],["何次長晉滄：就是要協助相關的技術能夠商品化、能夠落地。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我們怎麼衡量他有沒有做好？"],["何次長晉滄：當然就是要看它未來產值的增加有多少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那天李署長在的公聽會，我就有提出來，他有聽到。我說以目前我們的法人科專來講，我們編了預算，每100元的投入，他說會有30元回報，分別是15元的技轉收入、15元是輔導收入，我就問一個問題，其他70元呢？其他70元，你怎麼去衡量他的績效？到目前為止，從經濟部技術司提供的資料來看，法人科專每投入100元，他說會創造30元回報，很清楚可以看到15元是技轉、15元是服務，可是那70元怎麼衡量？有沒有辦法去衡量他的績效？我相信應該是有績效的，但怎麼衡量？我建議他把這些法人科專、企業科專投入的資源，對應這些企業成長、後來的營業額、資本額的成長，至少再對應一個部分，賦稅署署長在這裡，去查一下這些接受我們補助的法人科專、企業科專，他的成果有沒有創造稅收？這可不可以勾稽的到？可以嘛！不是按照他們自己寫的報告說輔導了幾家，這幾家欣欣向榮、成長很好，你看看他繳的稅有沒有更增加嘛！如果繳的稅有增加，我就相信。當然不是馬上增加啦！可能要看個5年的成果，所以是不是可以就這個部分，未來衡量績效的時候，可以勾連到財政部、勾連到金管會指標，可不可以？"],["何次長晉滄：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：衡量一個公司的成長，可以從繳的稅、營業規模、股票市值的成長，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再跟主席要求一些時間。其實傳產不是那麼不堪，我們目前談模具沖壓，舉個例，我一直強調我們臺灣的傳產有幾個很厲害的隱形冠軍，有模具沖壓、金屬加工、小型引擎，你來看看現在最紅的川湖，它在20年前是不是傳產？它在2000年之前就是傳產啊！它做什麼？做傢俱、做滑軌，現在它做到AI伺服器的精密導軌，它一年投入在它的專利保護，可以將近1億臺幣，我們講義美好了，義美是做什麼的？做食品的嘛！你能想像它現在做機器狗嗎？它是傳產啊！我說雷虎科技以前是做玩具的，它現在是做什麼？做無人機。所以我覺得經濟部對傳產的思維跟想像……就如在星期一你們報告對中小微企業轉型升級與產業創新條例法制之檢討，當中你們特別講到，你們會把金融科技發展與創新實驗條例、資源循環推動法及人工智慧基本法放進去，對不對？漏了一個什麼？有沒有聽過無人載具科技創新實驗條例？次長，你有沒有聽過？"],["何次長晉滄：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道這個主管機關是誰嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是我們經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！什麼立的？2018年。為了什麼？為了自駕車立的，但是我看了它的法架構其實很完整，陸、海、空都有，而且在很多節點的調適上，針對我們未來的護國神山、無人載具產業已經有大概的輪廓都規劃下來了。在昨天的記者會，就這幾個部分，我去盤點這個實驗條例，目前所謂的無人機專法，有民眾黨黨團版的、有國民黨黨團版的、有賴士葆委員個人版的，我把它跟現況盤點一下，大概有四個優勢：第一，這個實驗條例定義簡要、涵蓋完整，至於現況跟藍白版的提案功能混雜、掛一漏萬。對於無人載具產業所需要申請的核備程序，這個實驗條例是單一窗口、聯席審查，目前的情況跟藍白版的提案要自行跑件、主管審查；至於我們需要的測試場域，目前實驗條例是一次申請、經常使用，但現況是逐次申請、限時使用，最重要的是法令競合，我們對無人載具有相關的法，有船舶法、有民用航空法、有道交條例、有船員法，還有我們很多很多關於無線電磁波頻譜的管制等等，這些在實驗條例裡面排除限制、一致到位，可是相對的，在目前的無人機專法當中，他們縱使有討論到這些，但管制法令很多、條文不清楚。我們的實驗條例把所有的條次都列出來了，次長，你們回去要不要再看一下這個實驗條例？目前這個實驗條例在經濟部是誰在輔導？"],["何次長晉滄：是產業技術司主責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：產業技術司今天不在嘛，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：回去可不可以請你們再盤點一下？針對目前你們要協助中小微企業轉型升級，無人載具是一個大好機會；我再強調一次，模具沖壓、金屬加工、小型引擎，從川湖、義美到雷虎，我們都看得到傳產轉型為未來的護國神山是有機會的，但是需要法令的協助。這個實驗條例可不可以協助未來傳產轉型為無人載具產業啊？"],["何次長晉滄：是，可以來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛？"],["何次長晉滄：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以請經濟部研議，針對科技專案補助的產業跟區域均衡，怎麼樣建立你們政策資源總帳、怎麼去勾稽，可不可以提出一份報告給本席？"],["何次長晉滄：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請你們將創新實證機制納入無人載具科技創新實驗條例的方案，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：這個部分我想我們可以來研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們可以來研議。這部法令是在2018年訂定的，現在已經過了8年，可能就需要補充，補充後就可以適用無人載具產業，可不可以？"],["何次長晉滄：是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以在一個月內也給本席知道一下，對這個實驗條例，你們打算補充哪些、修改哪些，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"agendarec_url":null,"pdf_url":null,"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、財政部首長、金融監督管理委員會首長、財團法人\n中小企業信用保證基金首長、國家科學及技術委員會首長就「中小微新企業發展困境、政策需求\n及政府資源配置與執行成效」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1157601_00001","doc_url":null,"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-27","speakers":["洪毓祥","陳亭妃","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","蔡易餘","鄭正鈐","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","徐欣瑩","陳超明","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1157601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1157601_00002"],"pdf_page_offset":0}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}