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10:09:16","會議時間":"2026-08-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」等10案。\n(一)委員葉元之等19人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員黃健豪等23人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第三十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(四)委員鄭正鈐等22人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十條之一條文草案」案。\n(六)委員魯明哲等18人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。\n(七)委員魯明哲等18人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等20人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」等17案。\n(一)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十二條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張智倫等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蔡其昌等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(六)委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(七)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(九)委員林俊憲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十)委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十一)委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第十三條之一及第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十二)委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員范雲等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二及第五十三條之三條文草案」案。\n(十四)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條及第五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n【本次會議綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":1.00971875,"end":1.16159375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":4.73909375,"end":9.632843750000003,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.594718750000002,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.957218750000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":12.04596875,"end":12.282218750000002,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.914718750000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":15.437843750000003,"end":15.67409375,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":16.06221875,"end":47.17971875,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":27.520343750000002,"end":27.722843750000003,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":47.213468750000004,"end":48.95159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":50.976593750000006,"end":57.13596875,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":57.35534375,"end":93.97409375000001,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":67.04159375,"end":67.10909375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":91.17284375000001,"end":91.64534375000001,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.29471875,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":94.29471875,"end":94.31159375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":94.31159375,"end":139.60409375,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":114.56159375,"end":115.01721875000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":139.87409375000001,"end":143.70471875,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":143.70471875,"end":144.05909375000002,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":143.87346875,"end":153.03659375,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":153.03659375,"end":153.34034375000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":153.77909375000002,"end":167.43096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":167.66721875000002,"end":205.90596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭副司長淑心","start":190.24596875,"end":190.61721875,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":204.25221875000003,"end":204.74159375000002,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":205.90596875,"end":214.19159375,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":209.53409375,"end":210.52971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":213.38159375,"end":214.12409375000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":214.46159375000002,"end":224.04659375000003,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":219.84471875000003,"end":220.45221875000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":224.24909375000001,"end":232.53471875000002,"speaker_score":0.734},{"speaker":"S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沒錯"},{"start":868,"end":869,"text":"那你要不要評估一下"},{"start":869,"end":871,"text":"是不是可以同時既然你去訪查"},{"start":871,"end":873,"text":"就一次把所有事情做好"},{"start":873,"end":876,"text":"還有未來你現在"},{"start":876,"end":879,"text":"你也覺得這個7萬嚴重低估了嗎"},{"start":879,"end":882,"text":"那是不是幫自己設一個KPI"},{"start":882,"end":884,"text":"我們希望一個月可以看到"},{"start":884,"end":886,"text":"你要幫自己設定什麼KPI"},{"start":886,"end":888,"text":"這一年兩年三年"},{"start":888,"end":890,"text":"你多久以內要幫他們裝置完"},{"start":890,"end":892,"text":"包委員我能回覆三個數據"},{"start":892,"end":894,"text":"第一個就是現在目前我們按照那個"},{"start":894,"end":896,"text":"獨老的這個戶口對不對"},{"start":896,"end":897,"text":"是117萬戶"},{"start":897,"end":899,"text":"這是第一點第二個數據"},{"start":899,"end":901,"text":"第二個我們現在目前認為這裡面"},{"start":901,"end":903,"text":"我們會做一個他有需要"},{"start":903,"end":905,"text":"會做一個整個general的一個survey是70萬"},{"start":905,"end":906,"text":"但是我們估出來"},{"start":906,"end":908,"text":"按照過去的歷史的一個"},{"start":908,"end":909,"text":"我們認為"},{"start":909,"end":910,"text":"高7萬是低估"},{"start":910,"end":912,"text":"不一定每個都要被捨棄"},{"start":912,"end":913,"text":"那我們認為就是說這裡面"},{"start":913,"end":915,"text":"可能有需要關懷的是35萬"},{"start":915,"end":916,"text":"是35"},{"start":916,"end":917,"text":"所以我們自己的KPI是35"},{"start":917,"end":919,"text":"但是35裡面還有區分"},{"start":919,"end":921,"text":"這一個低中高"},{"start":921,"end":922,"text":"還有極高"},{"start":922,"end":924,"text":"這4級的level"},{"start":924,"end":927,"text":"真的有需要的其實事實上是那個"},{"start":927,"end":928,"text":"是extreme"},{"start":928,"end":930,"text":"那個大概幾萬"},{"start":930,"end":932,"text":"那個部分"},{"start":932,"end":933,"text":"我們現在目前就是說"},{"start":933,"end":937,"text":"現在目前我們還在那個調查當中"},{"start":937,"end":939,"text":"估計10萬"},{"start":940,"end":942,"text":"10萬有可能"},{"start":942,"end":943,"text":"好"},{"start":943,"end":945,"text":"那我們就再跟你會後要一個報告"},{"start":945,"end":946,"text":"可以沒問題"},{"start":946,"end":947,"text":"我先跟委員報告"},{"start":947,"end":949,"text":"因為我們現在目前這個也才剛啟動"},{"start":949,"end":953,"text":"所以我們現在目前要從那邊去撈出來"},{"start":953,"end":956,"text":"然後我會給委員一個報告好不好"},{"start":956,"end":957,"text":"好謝謝次長"},{"start":957,"end":959,"text":"感謝陳委員的一個關心謝謝"},{"start":960,"end":962,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:53:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:53:24.450000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請呂次長，還有心健司副司長。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T09:53:25.384615+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:53:27.692308+08:00","text":"有請次長跟司長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:53:28.076923+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:53:29.615385+08:00","text":"陳委員早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:53:31.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:00.850000+08:00","text":"之前因為不管是石部長或者是卓榮泰院長，他們在不同的場合都有特別強調，因為健保總額明年破兆，所以他們會再加碼，尤其是心理支持、心理諮商方面，希望預算可以擴增到4.29億元，可是關於加碼的細節，我仔細去看一下他們的發言都沒有提到，可以請次長或是副司長稍微講解一下嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:00.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:01.850000+08:00","text":"我是不是先請副司長報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:01.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:21.735294+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，15歲到45歲青壯世代心理健康支持的方案，其實我們從113年8月1號上路之後，一直都有相當多國人來使用這部分的資源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:22.275862+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:29.724138+08:00","text":"我們從今年1月到7月為止，其實已經有超過5萬人來使用我們的方案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:30.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:45.447368+08:00","text":"我們在明年有編列比較多經費，也是考量到以今年來看的話，其實今年使用者會超過我們預估的人數，所以在明年的部分，我們經費有增加一些。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:54:47.542857+08:00","text":"好，所以是因為人數的原因？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:54:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:55:14.666667+08:00","text":"但我們也接到非常非常多家長，或者是老師、學校等等跟我們反映，這邊也請次長還有副司長看一下數據，現在有很多第一線的，比如身心科醫師發現，13到15歲求診顯著地增加，增加了47%，14歲以下的自殺通報在過去15年間成長了16倍。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:55:16.161290+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:55:32.750000+08:00","text":"身心門診裡面，他們發現像國小生診斷出憂鬱症的占比占了10%，還有一個比較傷心的數據是，自殺在過去連續兩年列為0到17歲的第五大死因，已經兩年了。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:55:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:55:46.771429+08:00","text":"因此我們也想在這邊跟官員建議，既然你們要增加預算，但具體的細節，你們預期使用的人數會變多，你們會考慮把這個年紀再往下延伸嗎？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:55:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:55:58.833333+08:00","text":"非常感謝陳委員對這個問題的關心，其實我昨天代表本部出席兒少的委員會，他們確實就有提出這個問題。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:55:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:18.769231+08:00","text":"我想委員也長期關心這個問題，了解主要跟網路成癮、網路上面所導致的霸凌，還有校園霸凌了解問題這些相關，所以確實誠如委員剛剛所說的，身心症還有類似像自殺的議題，確實值得我們關心。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:21.409091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:23.454545+08:00","text":"我知道委員現在具體建議年齡下修，對不對？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:24.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:28.750000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們是不是回去再研議看看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:39.846154+08:00","text":"因為這裡面也牽涉到，主要校園的問題跟教育部有關，我們這邊也有學生輔導，我想可能需要整合。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:42.647059+08:00","text":"好，我先講幾個點，因為您昨天也有跟兒少委員會開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:42.647059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:43.647059+08:00","text":"沒錯、沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:46.800000+08:00","text":"現在當然兒少權法是以12歲作為少年起點。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:56:47.666667+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:56:48.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:05.761905+08:00","text":"他可能會在國中的階段突然感受到課業壓力增加，加上你剛剛講的可能網路或者是霸凌，所以在多重的壓力之下，他們變得比較容易有身心的狀況。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:06.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:18.761905+08:00","text":"後來我也去找了2025年在行政院有個青年諮詢委員會，他們其實就曾經跟你們提案，希望可以下修到12歲，並且常態化、制度化。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:31.714286+08:00","text":"可是衛福部跟教育部當時的回應是，希望提升教職員跟學輔人員的識能，然後你們希望可以建立一個社區精神醫療的綠色通道，可以直接轉介。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:57:53.812500+08:00","text":"可是我實際去詢問那個狀況：第一，當然你們會希望提升教職員跟學輔人員識能，可是過去一個月有很多新聞指出，我們面臨最大的教師荒，現在教師的缺口很大，然後已經快要開學了，找不到代課老師的比例大概高達七成。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:57:54.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:03.846154+08:00","text":"在這麼少的人力之下，當然他們也想要提升他們的識能，可是他們難免還必須再分擔其他人的工作，這是第一個，他們沒辦法做到的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:04.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:17.769231+08:00","text":"第二，有一些小朋友會說，他們當然不想要讓學校知道，也就是他們如果在學校透過轉介，在校園裡面會不敢開口。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:43.833333+08:00","text":"所以他遇到問題是，他的問題也許沒有嚴重到一定要到身心科門診，就是一些升學壓力、家庭衝突、同學吵架，或者是同儕之間的壓力而已，他會比較希望可以自己去找，就像剛剛副司長提到的這種心理支持方案就比較自由，他可以不需要讓老師、同學知道。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:53.785714+08:00","text":"所以我們也需要一些數據，副司長要不要簡單的講一下，你們從執行到現在，每一個年齡層使用的狀況如何？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:54.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:58:56.769231+08:00","text":"他們來的原因是怎麼分布的？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:58:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:03.777778+08:00","text":"還有，最後你在心理支持裡面，找到高風險成功被轉介出去的比例是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德：我先簡單回答三個重點","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:19.866667+08:00","text":"第一個，誠如委員剛剛說的，其實這個方案本來是15到30歲，因為成效相當好，所以向上提升到45歲，這裡面主要的作用是作為早篩，是early screening，之後……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:20.875000+08:00","text":"對，所以我在問轉介率啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:22.846154+08:00","text":"對，轉介率我等一下請副司長回答。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:23.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:42.555556+08:00","text":"另外第二點，我要跟委員回報，就是因為它的定位是在early screening，可是目前所說12到14歲的問題點可能跟一般的有些不一樣，所以我剛剛說這個會牽涉到我們跟教育部的學輔中心那邊……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:55.800000+08:00","text":"我懂，但是有的家長剛好一個超過15歲跟一個不到15歲，所以他會認為遇到相同的問題，可是卻沒有辦法用政府提供的心理支持去協助小孩。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:56.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:59:57.888889+08:00","text":"瞭解，謝謝委員，我請副司長說明。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T09:59:58.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:00:48.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提問，我大概從三個面向來回答委員，第一個，其實衛福部跟教育部兩個部會的次長都會定期針對兒少心理健康的議題做討論，會有一個交流的平臺，針對不在我們這個方案年齡區間的15歲以下的兒少，當時兩個部會的共識就是，畢竟學生的生活場域有很長一段時間是在校園，所以有關於15歲以下兒少的心理支持、輔導等，是由學校的三級輔導的機制來做處理，如果是高風險、需要進一步醫療的話，就透過轉介到社區的醫療體系來進行進一步的評估跟治療，這是第一個。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:00:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:13.909091+08:00","text":"第二個，有關於15到45歲的方案，剛剛委員有特別提到，不在這個年齡區間的、他又不想在學校接受輔導的話，其實衛福部也有去布建校園以外的心理健康支持的資源，除了我們的方案之外，我們還有「1925」這個24小時免付費的安心專線，以及我們也是有文字協談的服務，當然這個也是不用付錢的。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:14.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:25.833333+08:00","text":"再來，各個縣市都有社區心理衛生中心，裡面也有心理師可以來提供服務，只要跟心衛中心來做預約就可以了。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:44.772727+08:00","text":"還有一個更重要的是，我們在全國有布建396個社區心理諮商的服務據點，除了中央提供的3次免費之外，其實地方政府也有利用他們地方的財政來提供優惠或是免付費的心理諮商服務……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:01:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:01:59.818182+08:00","text":"副司長，不然這樣子好了，等一下我再發一個公文，希望跟你要到這些詳細的資料，包括你已經執行多久，然後你得到的數據為何，另外回去研擬一下是不是針對往下延伸去做一個試辦計畫，一個月內可以給我報告嗎？","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:00.800000+08:00","text":"可以，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:00.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:01.800000+08:00","text":"好，副司長請回。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:01.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:35.727273+08:00","text":"再來要問次長，我們的社工也是有一個很大的缺口，並且流失率很高，這邊是我查到的，審計部的報告跟衛福部提供的報告數據似乎有點對不起來，因為審計部報告的數據是寫到114年到年底的進用人數為6,423人，可是衛福部的說明卻是114年底止進用人數為6,496人，請問這個差距的原因為何？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:36.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:44.833333+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個是不是可以允許我回去再跟辦公室確認一下？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:02:47+08:00","text":"那你會再給我們一份說明嗎？對。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:02:48.214286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:15.823529+08:00","text":"第二個，在我們審預算的時候，有非常、非常多位委員不分黨派都在關心，6月17日那時候我們在審你們的預算，很多委員就說要提升社工的值機費、備勤費、緊急出勤費，您的回答是要送行政院審議，可是到昨天我去追，行政院那邊還是沒有收到你們說要送到行政院去審議的這個東西。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:24.785714+08:00","text":"還有，7月25日你們回復給衛環委員的內容也有講到，你們會去修改風險加給，會去提高。沒錯。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:25.937500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:03:40.800000+08:00","text":"當然現在大家覺得社工的風險加給很重要，因為從109年至今，6年都沒有調整過，所以包括你自己講的風險加給，還有我們在審預算時候講的值機費、出勤費、備勤費，到底什麼時候才會送到行政院？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:03:41.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:14.888889+08:00","text":"報告委員，非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，確實社工同仁在第一線非常辛苦，我跟委員簡單兩個回復：第一個，您剛剛所說的風險加給的部分，我之前已經主持我們相關的……我先跟委員透露一下，我們會分成四級，第一級最高的當然就是所謂的兒少跟保護性社工，第二級是脆弱家庭裡面跟兒少有關的，第三級就是脆弱性，另外還有一般的，我們會分成四級來做風險加給，這是第一點。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:15.235294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:25.875000+08:00","text":"第二點，您剛剛所說的值機費的部分，其實我們目前都已經簽辦，已經送到部長室，部長那邊一旦簽核之後，我們就會趕快送給……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:28.800000+08:00","text":"所以大概一個月內可以送到行政院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:31+08:00","text":"我們會趕快。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:33.666667+08:00","text":"一個月內可以嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:46.777778+08:00","text":"我們會趕快，因為我也知道現在公務人員那邊也普遍調薪，這裡面除了調薪的部分之外，另外我們認為風險加給也非常重要，我們會來加速。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:04:50.111111+08:00","text":"好，再來這個也是審計部點出你們的問題。沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:04:50.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:07.857143+08:00","text":"審計部的報告說，你們現在的久任制度無法使人留下來，他有舉了一個例子，他說，衛福部核定了137個資深保護性社工人數，可是實際上所有縣市加起來只有進用32人，僅占核定補助人數的23%，您知道這一點嗎？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:08.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:09.777778+08:00","text":"你知道原因為何嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:10.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:13.714286+08:00","text":"這個是不是請副司長來簡單回應一下？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:14.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:17.769231+08:00","text":"因為資深社工會有一些條件上的限制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:22.181818+08:00","text":"可是你已經核定給他這麼多的人數……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:25.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:25.833333+08:00","text":"因為它有一個比例。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:27.857143+08:00","text":"你的限制是不是應該要修改一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副司長淑心","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:29.833333+08:00","text":"對，我們回去再來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:29.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:30.833333+08:00","text":"你們回去會討論？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:30.187500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:32.812500+08:00","text":"現在保護性社工流動率也高達17.5%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:32.812500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:33.812500+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:41.250000+08:00","text":"你在7月29號講到風險加給的同一篇回文，裡面有提到你們會研議社工年資階數……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:44+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:44.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:46.785714+08:00","text":"這個你們什麼時候也會送出？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:54.500000+08:00","text":"這個也跟我們剛剛說的風險加給一起……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:54.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:05:58.500000+08:00","text":"會一起送出？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:05:58.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:01.846154+08:00","text":"而且階數本來是七階，我們現在會double到十五階。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:09.250000+08:00","text":"好，我希望不要再看到你們開了一個很大的核定人數，結果最後可以符合的人很少，只有23%。了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:10.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:20.750000+08:00","text":"最後一個比較重要的是，剛剛有提到院長、部長在外面說，現在獨居的長者根據衛福部的數據大概是70萬。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:20.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:21.750000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:21.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:23.750000+08:00","text":"你們已經列冊的是快要7萬。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:24.470588+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:42.714286+08:00","text":"你看你們去幫他裝緊急救援裝置的覆蓋率從112、113、114年緩慢的上升，每年就是1%、2%的上升，最新數據是28.76%，這個是列冊裡面的，只有28.76%裝好了。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:50.500000+08:00","text":"如果以你們公布的整體數據70萬人來看，只有2.84%。了解。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:51.111111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:06:51.888889+08:00","text":"你滿意這個數據嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:06:52.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:03.800000+08:00","text":"兩點回復，第一點、目前這個方案也感謝大院的支持，是從今年才開始實施，你現在所說的是過去，我也承認過去只有7萬，顯然是低估。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:04.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:06.900000+08:00","text":"這是第一點，正因為這樣，所以趕快來通盤檢討。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:19.714286+08:00","text":"第二點、目前我們也要尊重獨老本身的意願，他真的有風險的話，我們當然希望他能裝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:26.714286+08:00","text":"但是我們的同仁去，有的長輩說他比較不願意……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:26.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:27.714286+08:00","text":"他沒有這個需求？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:33.882353+08:00","text":"對，他就說他不要，所以我們也要尊重當事人本身的意願。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:34.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:40.833333+08:00","text":"因為我知道你們現在訪查、風險分級跟裝機有可能是不一樣的時間去的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:41.666667+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:42.111111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:46.800000+08:00","text":"你要不要評估一下，既然去訪查，就一次同時把所有事情做好？當然。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:55.769231+08:00","text":"還有現在你也覺得7萬是嚴重低估了，未來是不是幫自己設一個KPI？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:07:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:07:59.833333+08:00","text":"我們希望一個月內也可以看到你要幫自己設定什麼KPI。好。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:00.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:01.714286+08:00","text":"是一年、兩年、三年？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:03.833333+08:00","text":"你多久以內要幫他們裝置完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:04.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:12.800000+08:00","text":"我能回復三個數據，第一個、目前獨老的戶口是117萬戶，這是第一個數據。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:23.800000+08:00","text":"第二個、目前如果他有需要，我們會做整個general的serve，是70萬，但是按照過去的歷史數據估出來，我們認為剛剛說的7萬是低估……","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:25.400000+08:00","text":"對，不一定每個人都要被serve。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:26.090909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:41.875000+08:00","text":"但我們認為這裡面可能有需要關懷的是35萬，所以我們自己的KPI是35萬，但是裡面還有區分低、中、高與極高這四級的level，真的有需要的事實上是extreme。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:43.666667+08:00","text":"那個大概幾萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:47.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:50.714286+08:00","text":"目前我們還在調查當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:52.333333+08:00","text":"估計10萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:55.500000+08:00","text":"10萬有可能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:58.857143+08:00","text":"好，會後我就再跟你要一個報告。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:08:59.800000+08:00","text":"可以，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:08:59.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:01+08:00","text":"之後你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:09.785714+08:00","text":"因為目前這個也才剛啟動，所以我們要從那邊撈出來，然後會給委員一個報告，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:10.800000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:10.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:11.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:12.833333+08:00","text":"感謝陳委員的關心，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴）","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:15.777778+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴）","start":"2026-08-26T10:09:16.277778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T10:09:19.420635+08:00","text":"接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請呂次長，還有心健司副司長。"],["主席：有請次長跟司長。"],["呂次長建德：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員菁徽：之前因為不管是石部長或者是卓榮泰院長，他們在不同的場合都有特別強調，因為健保總額明年破兆，所以他們會再加碼，尤其是心理支持、心理諮商方面，希望預算可以擴增到4.29億元，可是關於加碼的細節，我仔細去看一下他們的發言都沒有提到，可以請次長或是副司長稍微講解一下嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我是不是先請副司長報告？"],["鄭副司長淑心：跟委員報告，15歲到45歲青壯世代心理健康支持的方案，其實我們從113年8月1號上路之後，一直都有相當多國人來使用這部分的資源。我們從今年1月到7月為止，其實已經有超過5萬人來使用我們的方案。我們在明年有編列比較多經費，也是考量到以今年來看的話，其實今年使用者會超過我們預估的人數，所以在明年的部分，我們經費有增加一些。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以是因為人數的原因？但我們也接到非常非常多家長，或者是老師、學校等等跟我們反映，這邊也請次長還有副司長看一下數據，現在有很多第一線的，比如身心科醫師發現，13到15歲求診顯著地增加，增加了47%，14歲以下的自殺通報在過去15年間成長了16倍。身心門診裡面，他們發現像國小生診斷出憂鬱症的占比占了10%，還有一個比較傷心的數據是，自殺在過去連續兩年列為0到17歲的第五大死因，已經兩年了。因此我們也想在這邊跟官員建議，既然你們要增加預算，但具體的細節，你們預期使用的人數會變多，你們會考慮把這個年紀再往下延伸嗎？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝陳委員對這個問題的關心，其實我昨天代表本部出席兒少的委員會，他們確實就有提出這個問題。我想委員也長期關心這個問題，了解主要跟網路成癮、網路上面所導致的霸凌，還有校園霸凌了解問題這些相關，所以確實誠如委員剛剛所說的，身心症還有類似像自殺的議題，確實值得我們關心。我知道委員現在具體建議年齡下修，對不對？這個部分我們是不是回去再研議看看？因為這裡面也牽涉到，主要校園的問題跟教育部有關，我們這邊也有學生輔導，我想可能需要整合。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我先講幾個點，因為您昨天也有跟兒少委員會開會。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在當然兒少權法是以12歲作為少年起點。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：他可能會在國中的階段突然感受到課業壓力增加，加上你剛剛講的可能網路或者是霸凌，所以在多重的壓力之下，他們變得比較容易有身心的狀況。後來我也去找了2025年在行政院有個青年諮詢委員會，他們其實就曾經跟你們提案，希望可以下修到12歲，並且常態化、制度化。可是衛福部跟教育部當時的回應是，希望提升教職員跟學輔人員的識能，然後你們希望可以建立一個社區精神醫療的綠色通道，可以直接轉介。可是我實際去詢問那個狀況：第一，當然你們會希望提升教職員跟學輔人員識能，可是過去一個月有很多新聞指出，我們面臨最大的教師荒，現在教師的缺口很大，然後已經快要開學了，找不到代課老師的比例大概高達七成。在這麼少的人力之下，當然他們也想要提升他們的識能，可是他們難免還必須再分擔其他人的工作，這是第一個，他們沒辦法做到的。第二，有一些小朋友會說，他們當然不想要讓學校知道，也就是他們如果在學校透過轉介，在校園裡面會不敢開口。所以他遇到問題是，他的問題也許沒有嚴重到一定要到身心科門診，就是一些升學壓力、家庭衝突、同學吵架，或者是同儕之間的壓力而已，他會比較希望可以自己去找，就像剛剛副司長提到的這種心理支持方案就比較自由，他可以不需要讓老師、同學知道。","所以我們也需要一些數據，副司長要不要簡單的講一下，你們從執行到現在，每一個年齡層使用的狀況如何？他們來的原因是怎麼分布的？還有，最後你在心理支持裡面，找到高風險成功被轉介出去的比例是多少？"],["呂次長建德：我先簡單回答三個重點：第一個，誠如委員剛剛說的，其實這個方案本來是15到30歲，因為成效相當好，所以向上提升到45歲，這裡面主要的作用是作為早篩，是early screening，之後……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以我在問轉介率啊！"],["呂次長建德：對，轉介率我等一下請副司長回答。另外第二點，我要跟委員回報，就是因為它的定位是在early screening，可是目前所說12到14歲的問題點可能跟一般的有些不一樣，所以我剛剛說這個會牽涉到我們跟教育部的學輔中心那邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂，但是有的家長剛好一個超過15歲跟一個不到15歲，所以他會認為遇到相同的問題，可是卻沒有辦法用政府提供的心理支持去協助小孩。"],["呂次長建德：瞭解，謝謝委員，我請副司長說明。"],["鄭副司長淑心：謝謝委員的提問，我大概從三個面向來回答委員，第一個，其實衛福部跟教育部兩個部會的次長都會定期針對兒少心理健康的議題做討論，會有一個交流的平臺，針對不在我們這個方案年齡區間的15歲以下的兒少，當時兩個部會的共識就是，畢竟學生的生活場域有很長一段時間是在校園，所以有關於15歲以下兒少的心理支持、輔導等，是由學校的三級輔導的機制來做處理，如果是高風險、需要進一步醫療的話，就透過轉介到社區的醫療體系來進行進一步的評估跟治療，這是第一個。","第二個，有關於15到45歲的方案，剛剛委員有特別提到，不在這個年齡區間的、他又不想在學校接受輔導的話，其實衛福部也有去布建校園以外的心理健康支持的資源，除了我們的方案之外，我們還有「1925」這個24小時免付費的安心專線，以及我們也是有文字協談的服務，當然這個也是不用付錢的。再來，各個縣市都有社區心理衛生中心，裡面也有心理師可以來提供服務，只要跟心衛中心來做預約就可以了。還有一個更重要的是，我們在全國有布建396個社區心理諮商的服務據點，除了中央提供的3次免費之外，其實地方政府也有利用他們地方的財政來提供優惠或是免付費的心理諮商服務……"],["陳委員菁徽：副司長，不然這樣子好了，等一下我再發一個公文，希望跟你要到這些詳細的資料，包括你已經執行多久，然後你得到的數據為何，另外回去研擬一下是不是針對往下延伸去做一個試辦計畫，一個月內可以給我報告嗎？"],["鄭副司長淑心：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，副司長請回。再來要問次長，我們的社工也是有一個很大的缺口，並且流失率很高，這邊是我查到的，審計部的報告跟衛福部提供的報告數據似乎有點對不起來，因為審計部報告的數據是寫到114年到年底的進用人數為6,423人，可是衛福部的說明卻是114年底止進用人數為6,496人，請問這個差距的原因為何？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個是不是可以允許我回去再跟辦公室確認一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：那你會再給我們一份說明嗎？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：第二個，在我們審預算的時候，有非常、非常多位委員不分黨派都在關心，6月17日那時候我們在審你們的預算，很多委員就說要提升社工的值機費、備勤費、緊急出勤費，您的回答是要送行政院審議，可是到昨天我去追，行政院那邊還是沒有收到你們說要送到行政院去審議的這個東西。還有，7月25日你們回復給衛環委員的內容也有講到，你們會去修改風險加給，會去提高。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然現在大家覺得社工的風險加給很重要，因為從109年至今，6年都沒有調整過，所以包括你自己講的風險加給，還有我們在審預算時候講的值機費、出勤費、備勤費，到底什麼時候才會送到行政院？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，確實社工同仁在第一線非常辛苦，我跟委員簡單兩個回復：第一個，您剛剛所說的風險加給的部分，我之前已經主持我們相關的……我先跟委員透露一下，我們會分成四級，第一級最高的當然就是所謂的兒少跟保護性社工，第二級是脆弱家庭裡面跟兒少有關的，第三級就是脆弱性，另外還有一般的，我們會分成四級來做風險加給，這是第一點。第二點，您剛剛所說的值機費的部分，其實我們目前都已經簽辦，已經送到部長室，部長那邊一旦簽核之後，我們就會趕快送給……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以大概一個月內可以送到行政院？"],["呂次長建德：我們會趕快。"],["陳委員菁徽：一個月內可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們會趕快，因為我也知道現在公務人員那邊也普遍調薪，這裡面除了調薪的部分之外，另外我們認為風險加給也非常重要，我們會來加速。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來這個也是審計部點出你們的問題。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：審計部的報告說，你們現在的久任制度無法使人留下來，他有舉了一個例子，他說，衛福部核定了137個資深保護性社工人數，可是實際上所有縣市加起來只有進用32人，僅占核定補助人數的23%，您知道這一點嗎？你知道原因為何嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這個是不是請副司長來簡單回應一下？"],["鄭副司長淑心：因為資深社工會有一些條件上的限制。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是你已經核定給他這麼多的人數……"],["鄭副司長淑心：因為它有一個比例。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的限制是不是應該要修改一下？"],["鄭副司長淑心：對，我們回去再來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們回去會討論？"],["鄭副司長淑心：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在保護性社工流動率也高達17.5%。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：你在7月29號講到風險加給的同一篇回文，裡面有提到你們會研議社工年資階數……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個你們什麼時候也會送出？"],["呂次長建德：這個也跟我們剛剛說的風險加給一起……"],["陳委員菁徽：會一起送出？"],["呂次長建德：而且階數本來是七階，我們現在會double到十五階。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我希望不要再看到你們開了一個很大的核定人數，結果最後可以符合的人很少，只有23%。"],["呂次長建德：了解。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後一個比較重要的是，剛剛有提到院長、部長在外面說，現在獨居的長者根據衛福部的數據大概是70萬。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們已經列冊的是快要7萬。你看你們去幫他裝緊急救援裝置的覆蓋率從112、113、114年緩慢的上升，每年就是1%、2%的上升，最新數據是28.76%，這個是列冊裡面的，只有28.76%裝好了。如果以你們公布的整體數據70萬人來看，只有2.84%。"],["呂次長建德：了解。"],["陳委員菁徽：你滿意這個數據嗎？"],["呂次長建德：兩點回復，第一點、目前這個方案也感謝大院的支持，是從今年才開始實施，你現在所說的是過去，我也承認過去只有7萬，顯然是低估。這是第一點，正因為這樣，所以趕快來通盤檢討。第二點、目前我們也要尊重獨老本身的意願，他真的有風險的話，我們當然希望他能裝。但是我們的同仁去，有的長輩說他比較不願意……"],["陳委員菁徽：他沒有這個需求？"],["呂次長建德：對，他就說他不要，所以我們也要尊重當事人本身的意願。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為我知道你們現在訪查、風險分級跟裝機有可能是不一樣的時間去的。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：你要不要評估一下，既然去訪查，就一次同時把所有事情做好？"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["陳委員菁徽：還有現在你也覺得7萬是嚴重低估了，未來是不是幫自己設一個KPI？我們希望一個月內也可以看到你要幫自己設定什麼KPI。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：是一年、兩年、三年？你多久以內要幫他們裝置完？"],["呂次長建德：我能回復三個數據，第一個、目前獨老的戶口是117萬戶，這是第一個數據。第二個、目前如果他有需要，我們會做整個general的serve，是70萬，但是按照過去的歷史數據估出來，我們認為剛剛說的7萬是低估……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，不一定每個人都要被serve。"],["呂次長建德：但我們認為這裡面可能有需要關懷的是35萬，所以我們自己的KPI是35萬，但是裡面還有區分低、中、高與極高這四級的level，真的有需要的事實上是extreme。"],["陳委員菁徽：那個大概幾萬？"],["呂次長建德：目前我們還在調查當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：估計10萬？"],["呂次長建德：10萬有可能。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，會後我就再跟你要一個報告。"],["呂次長建德：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：之後你們……"],["呂次長建德：因為目前這個也才剛啟動，所以我們要從那邊撈出來，然後會給委員一個報告，好不好？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝次長。謝謝主席。"],["呂次長建德：感謝陳委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴）：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"agendarec_url":null,"pdf_url":"https://ppg.ly.gov.tw/ppg/SittingCommitteesInfo/download/communique1/final/pdf/115/76/LCIDC01_1157601_00003.pdf","meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」等10案：(一)委員葉元之等19人擬具「性侵害\n犯罪防治法第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等23人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第三十二條之一條文草\n案」案、( 四) 委員鄭正鈐等22 人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、\n(五)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員魯明哲\n等18 人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案、( 七) 委員魯明哲等18 人擬具\n「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防\n治法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王育敏等20人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條及第四\n十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二、審查「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」等17案：(一)委員陳亭妃等\n17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「兒\n童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十二條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等18人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「兒童及少\n年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員蔡其昌等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(六)委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防\n制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、 ( 九) 委員林俊憲等18 人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、( 十) 委員邱議瑩等16 人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(十一)委員林月琴等21人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第十三條之一及第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(十二)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正\n草案」案、(十三)委員范雲等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二及第五\n十三條之三條文草案」案、(十四)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條及第五十三\n條之二條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十七)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1157601_00003","doc_url":"https://ppg.ly.gov.tw/ppg/download/communique1\\work\\115\\76\\LCIDC01_1157601_00004.doc","page_end":288,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-26,36-2","speakers":["林月琴","張智倫","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","范雲","楊瓊瓔","邱慧洳","王正旭","陳瑩","劉建國","涂權吉","沈發惠","蘇清泉","傅崐萁","王育敏","蔡其昌","楊曜","林淑芬","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","吳宗憲","沈伯洋","張雅琳"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2026-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1157601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1157601_00004"],"pdf_page_offset":172}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}