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09:36:03","會議時間":"2026-08-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、審查「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」等10案。\n(一)委員葉元之等19人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員黃健豪等23人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第三十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(四)委員鄭正鈐等22人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十條之一條文草案」案。\n(六)委員魯明哲等18人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。\n(七)委員魯明哲等18人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等20人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」等17案。\n(一)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十二條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張智倫等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蔡其昌等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(六)委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(七)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(九)委員林俊憲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十)委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十一)委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第十三條之一及第五十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(十二)委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員范雲等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二及第五十三條之三條文草案」案。\n(十四)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條及第五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n【本次會議綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":3.18659375,"end":5.042843750000001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.4772187500000005,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":11.72534375,"end":22.39034375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":22.57596875,"end":56.174093750000004,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":22.84596875,"end":22.99784375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":56.376593750000005,"end":68.71221875,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":69.75846875,"end":89.35034375000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":89.75534375000001,"end":96.26909375000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":95.03721875000001,"end":98.27721875,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":97.51784375000001,"end":97.83846875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":98.51346875,"end":98.78346875000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":99.40784375000001,"end":99.52596875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":100.38659375,"end":108.19971875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":107.35596875,"end":110.22471875000001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":110.78159375000001,"end":118.27409375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":115.55721875,"end":116.24909375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":118.44284375000001,"end":121.24409375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":118.45971875000001,"end":119.06721875000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":121.78409375000001,"end":128.04471875000002,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":124.87221875,"end":125.36159375000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":128.04471875000002,"end":136.16159375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":136.24596875,"end":144.59909375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":143.02971875,"end":182.33159375000002,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":146.06721875,"end":146.84346875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":149.84721875,"end":152.44596875000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":158.65596875,"end":159.11159375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":165.50721875000002,"end":165.67596875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":172.54409375,"end":174.72096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":182.48346875000001,"end":191.51159375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":191.51159375,"end":191.74784375000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂次長建德","start":192.35534375,"end":203.22284375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":202.81784375,"end":207.34034375000002,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name"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報告委員，非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，我想這確實有各國民情相關的問題，我先簡單跟委員回報一下，我們現在這個立法最主要……其實並不完全只是加害人的問題而已，也有被害人的問題，因為這裡面整個相關隱私權的保障等等必須要多方考量，但是……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:28:39.823529+08:00","text":"次長，你可不可以就加害人的部分說明呢？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:28:48.857143+08:00","text":"我們也會聽各方的意見，這一點我們確實可以來……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:28:52.400000+08:00","text":"現在也同意將狼醫公告上網了，對不對？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:52.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:28:57.714286+08:00","text":"大家覺得狼醫做……甚至性騷、性侵也都上網啦，這麼專業的對象。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:57.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:28:58.714286+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:28:58.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:09.642857+08:00","text":"今天我們對比嘛，他在國外被公開他的姓名、照片，在臺灣卻連更嚴重的性侵犯都在保護。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:10.083333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:10.916667+08:00","text":"報告委員，我能不能簡單回復一下？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:11.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:25.769231+08:00","text":"根據我們的統計數據，事實上很多性侵害是熟人所為，這裡面會有一個問題，現在一旦公布的話會有連帶的影響和……","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:26.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:33.090909+08:00","text":"次長，您談的理由我都了解也聽過，但是很多法案及做法就是要檢討，我們就要繼續看嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:33.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:36.727273+08:00","text":"別的國家怎麼不擔心同樣的顧慮呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:36.727273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:37.727273+08:00","text":"是、是、是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:37.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:56.875000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下民進黨執政10年了，從2016年開始，每年性侵通報案件大概平均都破萬，有兩、三年是八、九千，大概是疫情期間啦，疫情期間通報數較低，但是我們心裡都有數，性侵案的通報數本來就存在很多的黑數，次長大概也會同意。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:56.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:29:57.875000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:29:57.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:10.666667+08:00","text":"我看到今天排審的法案，也有委員提出說要公布性侵累犯的姓名跟照片，揭露加害者的資訊，衛福部到現在還是持反對的意見嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:13.769231+08:00","text":"我想要請次長說明得比較明確一點。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:15.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:24.500000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們現在就是區分兩個層次，第一個就是我剛剛說的，我們多方評估，對於公布之後……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:28.714286+08:00","text":"有一些理由可以用十年、二十年，但是還是要檢討啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:46.875000+08:00","text":"對，另外還有一個就是，如果他是有明顯高再犯可能的加害人，就是他接受輔導、鑑定評估如果有再犯之虞，事實上也確實可以聲請法院裁定，加以強制治療，跟社區隔離。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:48.800000+08:00","text":"我想其中其實是有一些……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:49.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:50.857143+08:00","text":"次長，你的意思是說可以檢討，對不對？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:30:51.666667+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:30:52.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:31:03.800000+08:00","text":"加害人如果沒有按照規定來強制治療的話，而且有逃亡、藏匿等被通緝的情形，警察機關也可以公告他的身分資訊，因為他有逃亡之虞……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:31:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:31:08.250000+08:00","text":"我想跟次長繼續討論，性侵犯被深惡痛絕，大概沒有人會同情。當然。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:31:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:31:33.700000+08:00","text":"但是臺灣已經被民進黨實質廢死了，我們臺灣就是空有死刑，但事實上不可能去執行了，最近你也聽到公投的提案，以至於很多人想要用鞭刑來伺候性侵犯，但鞭刑被說是不人道、違反人權，請問次長，你認為化學去勢可行嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:31:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:31:52.800000+08:00","text":"你看看這張圖表，韓國、美國、歐洲都有針對性侵犯用化學去勢的相關法律，鞭刑本身是處罰，但化學去勢在有些國家被認為是一種治療，我想請教次長，你認為臺灣可以討論嗎？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:31:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:31:53.666667+08:00","text":"可行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:31:54.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:32:26.750000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我知道目前在國外確實有一些相關的討論，我覺得其中有幾個部分，第一、如果增加化學或物理去勢、鞭刑等等，其實也不光是本部，這一點確實會牽涉到我們國家的刑事政策，我覺得可能要多方討論；另外就是說按照國外的經驗，化學去勢可能只對固著型的戀童症加害人比較有效。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:32:27.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:32:34.714286+08:00","text":"次長，我們可以繼續討論，我的意思是這個令人深惡痛絕的犯行，死刑不可能了嘛！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:32:36.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:32:41.666667+08:00","text":"現在就是剩下……有人要用鞭刑，我認為鞭刑爭議也很大。對。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:32:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:32:43.800000+08:00","text":"就是你要用這些理由。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:32:44.214286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:33:00.769231+08:00","text":"其實前幾年也有民眾連署提案性侵犯要化學去勢，當時法務部引用聯合國的禁止酷刑公約，認為有人權疑慮，那為什麼歐美、韓國等都在執行？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:33:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:33:06.818182+08:00","text":"而且我也覺得不要一天到晚拿聯合國的公約來擋，因為聯合國根本不理臺灣嘛！","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:33:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:33:09.818182+08:00","text":"一直拒臺灣於門外，我們為什麼一直要引用它的東西？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:33:10.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:33:14.400000+08:00","text":"事實上其他國家也在做，可能他們的解釋並不認為這是酷刑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:33:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:33:51.400000+08:00","text":"另外，我想次長你可能也明白，就是化學去勢本身是可逆的（reversible），當然它可能會壓抑性衝動、勃起能力等等，但是停藥之後是可以恢復的，那這個費用，因為那是藥、荷爾蒙，你甚至可以要犯人來自費使用，法務部也說根據國外經驗，就如你剛剛所回答的，化學去勢僅對固著型的戀童症加害人比較有效，那臺灣是不是可以就從這一群有戀童癖的性侵加害者來試行？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:33:52.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:34:16.727273+08:00","text":"兒童的定義是12歲以下，請次長看右邊這張圖表，按照統計，每年臺灣也很可怕，也有1,000件兒童性侵害案件，下面深藍的是6歲以下，然後還有6到12歲，這樣看起來大概是1,000件，那是不是請衛福部跟法務部一起來研議提出修法，對這一類型的加害人進行化學去勢的治療？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:34:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:34:48.800000+08:00","text":"既然法務部也曾經引用，根據國外在執行的經驗，是對某一群尤其是剛剛您提到的固著型戀童症相對有效，但是我所謂的化學去勢，不是說他可以免除其他的部分，要加徒刑或其他形式的治療，都不是用一個來取代所有，所以我想請問衛福部，可以考慮跟法務部一起討論這個可能性嗎？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:34:49.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:34:55.600000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我覺得，任何的所謂性侵害，這個基本上法理不容。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:34:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:34:56.833333+08:00","text":"可惡到極點嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:34:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:34:58.750000+08:00","text":"那實在是很不人性。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:34:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:02.750000+08:00","text":"尤其還殺害的，性侵加殺害，這是不可原諒的！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:07.700000+08:00","text":"對，這是對一個當事人、家庭造成……我覺得這個是天理不容。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:07.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:08.700000+08:00","text":"那你們手握權力，去處理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:14.777778+08:00","text":"但是這裡面，剛剛委員也提到，目前我們會用很多很多方式，包括化學去勢等等這些。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:21.818182+08:00","text":"可是，就像我也跟委員報告，這個牽涉到我們國家的刑事政策，是不是可以允許我們……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:26.857143+08:00","text":"你們可以考慮，死刑不成，鞭刑你們說不定意見更大啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:27.461538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:34.800000+08:00","text":"現在的化學去勢是個方法，可以討論了，我們不要用二十年來的理由，一再地用，那要用多少年！好。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:36.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:40.800000+08:00","text":"事實上性侵犯也沒有減少，黑數很多我們都清楚。是。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:42.777778+08:00","text":"可能比想像得更嚴重。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:48.888889+08:00","text":"我希望衛福部能夠好好思考，是不是增加這個方法，你也可以把它當成是治療。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:49.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:49.916667+08:00","text":"是不是也可以允許我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:50.888889+08:00","text":"很重要，它是可逆的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:53.666667+08:00","text":"現在的刑事政策，我們來……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:54.900000+08:00","text":"也並不是傷害他終身啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:55.750000+08:00","text":"是可逆的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:56.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:57.750000+08:00","text":"謝謝次長、謝謝主席。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-08-26T09:35:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:35:59.500000+08:00","text":"好，感謝陳昭姿委員的關心，謝謝。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席（王委員正旭代）","start":"2026-08-26T09:36:00.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T09:36:02.727273+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，也謝謝次長的回應。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"主席（王委員正旭代）","start":"2026-08-26T09:36:03.227273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T09:36:06.370130+08:00","text":"下一位請林月琴召委發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時27分）謝謝主席，有請呂次長。"],["主席：有請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長早。次長，近日有一些熱門新聞，有一則到今天都還一直在報導，就是臺灣有一位女藝人因為毀損日本國寶而被捕，日本電視臺就直接公布她的姓名跟照片，我看到臺灣民眾的反應是紛紛叫好，甚至開始拿臺灣過去保護性侵犯者來做對比。幾年前就開始有人在「提點子」平臺提案要求公布性侵犯者的照片，當時衛福部回應，可能侵害基本人權、逾越維護社會安寧的必要。","次長，在日本毀壞古蹟者，其姓名、照片要全部公開；而在臺灣的性侵犯，政府還要幫忙顧隱私、講人權，你覺得臺灣社會可以接受嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，我想這確實有各國民情相關的問題，我先簡單跟委員回報一下，我們現在這個立法最主要……其實並不完全只是加害人的問題而已，也有被害人的問題，因為這裡面整個相關隱私權的保障等等必須要多方考量，但是……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，你可不可以就加害人的部分說明呢？"],["呂次長建德：我們也會聽各方的意見，這一點我們確實可以來……"],["陳委員昭姿：現在也同意將狼醫公告上網了，對不對？大家覺得狼醫做……甚至性騷、性侵也都上網啦，這麼專業的對象。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：今天我們對比嘛，他在國外被公開他的姓名、照片，在臺灣卻連更嚴重的性侵犯都在保護。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我能不能簡單回復一下？根據我們的統計數據，事實上很多性侵害是熟人所為，這裡面會有一個問題，現在一旦公布的話會有連帶的影響和……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，您談的理由我都了解也聽過，但是很多法案及做法就是要檢討，我們就要繼續看嘛！別的國家怎麼不擔心同樣的顧慮呢？"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們來看一下民進黨執政10年了，從2016年開始，每年性侵通報案件大概平均都破萬，有兩、三年是八、九千，大概是疫情期間啦，疫情期間通報數較低，但是我們心裡都有數，性侵案的通報數本來就存在很多的黑數，次長大概也會同意。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：我看到今天排審的法案，也有委員提出說要公布性侵累犯的姓名跟照片，揭露加害者的資訊，衛福部到現在還是持反對的意見嗎？我想要請次長說明得比較明確一點。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在就是區分兩個層次，第一個就是我剛剛說的，我們多方評估，對於公布之後……"],["陳委員昭姿：有一些理由可以用十年、二十年，但是還是要檢討啊！"],["呂次長建德：對，另外還有一個就是，如果他是有明顯高再犯可能的加害人，就是他接受輔導、鑑定評估如果有再犯之虞，事實上也確實可以聲請法院裁定，加以強制治療，跟社區隔離。我想其中其實是有一些……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，你的意思是說可以檢討，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。加害人如果沒有按照規定來強制治療的話，而且有逃亡、藏匿等被通緝的情形，警察機關也可以公告他的身分資訊，因為他有逃亡之虞……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想跟次長繼續討論，性侵犯被深惡痛絕，大概沒有人會同情。"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是臺灣已經被民進黨實質廢死了，我們臺灣就是空有死刑，但事實上不可能去執行了，最近你也聽到公投的提案，以至於很多人想要用鞭刑來伺候性侵犯，但鞭刑被說是不人道、違反人權，請問次長，你認為化學去勢可行嗎？你看看這張圖表，韓國、美國、歐洲都有針對性侵犯用化學去勢的相關法律，鞭刑本身是處罰，但化學去勢在有些國家被認為是一種治療，我想請教次長，你認為臺灣可以討論嗎？可行嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我知道目前在國外確實有一些相關的討論，我覺得其中有幾個部分，第一、如果增加化學或物理去勢、鞭刑等等，其實也不光是本部，這一點確實會牽涉到我們國家的刑事政策，我覺得可能要多方討論；另外就是說按照國外的經驗，化學去勢可能只對固著型的戀童症加害人比較有效。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，我們可以繼續討論，我的意思是這個令人深惡痛絕的犯行，死刑不可能了嘛！現在就是剩下……有人要用鞭刑，我認為鞭刑爭議也很大。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是你要用這些理由。其實前幾年也有民眾連署提案性侵犯要化學去勢，當時法務部引用聯合國的禁止酷刑公約，認為有人權疑慮，那為什麼歐美、韓國等都在執行？而且我也覺得不要一天到晚拿聯合國的公約來擋，因為聯合國根本不理臺灣嘛！一直拒臺灣於門外，我們為什麼一直要引用它的東西？事實上其他國家也在做，可能他們的解釋並不認為這是酷刑。另外，我想次長你可能也明白，就是化學去勢本身是可逆的（reversible），當然它可能會壓抑性衝動、勃起能力等等，但是停藥之後是可以恢復的，那這個費用，因為那是藥、荷爾蒙，你甚至可以要犯人來自費使用，法務部也說根據國外經驗，就如你剛剛所回答的，化學去勢僅對固著型的戀童症加害人比較有效，那臺灣是不是可以就從這一群有戀童癖的性侵加害者來試行？兒童的定義是12歲以下，請次長看右邊這張圖表，按照統計，每年臺灣也很可怕，也有1,000件兒童性侵害案件，下面深藍的是6歲以下，然後還有6到12歲，這樣看起來大概是1,000件，那是不是請衛福部跟法務部一起來研議提出修法，對這一類型的加害人進行化學去勢的治療？既然法務部也曾經引用，根據國外在執行的經驗，是對某一群尤其是剛剛您提到的固著型戀童症相對有效，但是我所謂的化學去勢，不是說他可以免除其他的部分，要加徒刑或其他形式的治療，都不是用一個來取代所有，所以我想請問衛福部，可以考慮跟法務部一起討論這個可能性嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我覺得，任何的所謂性侵害，這個基本上法理不容。"],["陳委員昭姿：可惡到極點嘛！"],["呂次長建德：那實在是很不人性。"],["陳委員昭姿：尤其還殺害的，性侵加殺害，這是不可原諒的！"],["呂次長建德：對，這是對一個當事人、家庭造成……我覺得這個是天理不容。"],["陳委員昭姿：那你們手握權力，去處理啊！"],["呂次長建德：但是這裡面，剛剛委員也提到，目前我們會用很多很多方式，包括化學去勢等等這些。可是，就像我也跟委員報告，這個牽涉到我們國家的刑事政策，是不是可以允許我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們可以考慮，死刑不成，鞭刑你們說不定意見更大啊！現在的化學去勢是個方法，可以討論了，我們不要用二十年來的理由，一再地用，那要用多少年！"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：事實上性侵犯也沒有減少，黑數很多我們都清楚。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：可能比想像得更嚴重。我希望衛福部能夠好好思考，是不是增加這個方法，你也可以把它當成是治療。"],["呂次長建德：是不是也可以允許我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：很重要，它是可逆的嘛！"],["呂次長建德：現在的刑事政策，我們來……"],["陳委員昭姿：也並不是傷害他終身啊！是可逆的。謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝陳昭姿委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，也謝謝次長的回應。","下一位請林月琴召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"agendarec_url":null,"pdf_url":"https://ppg.ly.gov.tw/ppg/SittingCommitteesInfo/download/communique1/final/pdf/115/76/LCIDC01_1157601_00003.pdf","meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草案」等10案：(一)委員葉元之等19人擬具「性侵害\n犯罪防治法第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等23人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第三十二條之一條文草\n案」案、( 四) 委員鄭正鈐等22 人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、\n(五)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員魯明哲\n等18 人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案、( 七) 委員魯明哲等18 人擬具\n「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防\n治法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王育敏等20人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條及第四\n十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「性侵害犯罪防治法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二、審查「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」等17案：(一)委員陳亭妃等\n17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「兒\n童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十二條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等18人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「兒童及少\n年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員蔡其昌等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(六)委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防\n制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、 ( 九) 委員林俊憲等18 人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、( 十) 委員邱議瑩等16 人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(十一)委員林月琴等21人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第十三條之一及第五十三條之二條文草案」案、(十二)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條、第五十三條之二及第五十五條條文修正\n草案」案、(十三)委員范雲等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第五十三條之二及第五\n十三條之三條文草案」案、(十四)委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第十二條及第五十三\n條之二條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十七)委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1157601_00003","doc_url":"https://ppg.ly.gov.tw/ppg/download/communique1\\work\\115\\76\\LCIDC01_1157601_00004.doc","page_end":288,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-26,36-2","speakers":["林月琴","張智倫","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","范雲","楊瓊瓔","邱慧洳","王正旭","陳瑩","劉建國","涂權吉","沈發惠","蘇清泉","傅崐萁","王育敏","蔡其昌","楊曜","林淑芬","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","吳宗憲","沈伯洋","張雅琳"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2026-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1157601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1157601_00004"],"pdf_page_offset":172}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}