{"error":false,"id":["17125"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17125,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17125","日期":"2025-12-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-35-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-12-17T08:31:09+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-17T13:14:00+08:00","影片長度":"04:42:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d6753254e18e0cc645f4c1517bf427504d5e67b2ed516237540ff4de87c5bd2765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部部長顧立雄報告「台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形」，並備質詢。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:31:09 - 13:14:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1726.9003437500003,"end":1729.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1729.02659375,"end":1729.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1729.7859687500002,"end":1729.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1734.2072187500003,"end":1738.9659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1738.9659687500002,"end":1739.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1739.15159375,"end":1739.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1739.6409687500002,"end":1739.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1739.6578437500002,"end":1745.5472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1745.7328437500003,"end":1751.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1751.67284375,"end":1758.9290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1759.0303437500002,"end":1762.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1762.37159375,"end":1768.0922187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1768.3622187500002,"end":1770.4884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1770.80909375,"end":1771.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1772.19284375,"end":1779.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1779.6009687500002,"end":1782.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1782.62159375,"end":1788.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1788.7640937500003,"end":1790.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1791.2953437500003,"end":1792.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1792.9659687500002,"end":1794.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1795.3284687500002,"end":1797.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1797.7753437500003,"end":1800.3909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1800.8128437500002,"end":1802.5172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1803.00659375,"end":1808.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1808.5247187500001,"end":1810.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1810.7859687500002,"end":1816.4222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1816.7428437500002,"end":1820.2697187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1820.59034375,"end":1824.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1824.7078437500002,"end":1828.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1829.16284375,"end":1832.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1833.1790937500002,"end":1836.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1839.4903437500002,"end":1842.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1842.4603437500002,"end":1845.2953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1845.6834687500002,"end":1850.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1851.0159687500002,"end":1854.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1858.2890937500001,"end":1864.9884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1866.9290937500002,"end":1869.7640937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1872.1097187500002,"end":1874.3878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1877.8978437500002,"end":1881.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1884.3272187500002,"end":1887.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1890.1659687500003,"end":1893.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1895.0090937500001,"end":1898.5528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1899.9197187500001,"end":1901.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1903.3790937500003,"end":1908.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1909.6734687500002,"end":1912.2553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1913.53784375,"end":1915.8665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1917.5034687500001,"end":1919.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1922.7853437500003,"end":1925.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1927.6622187500002,"end":1930.4803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1932.5053437500003,"end":1935.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1936.9434687500002,"end":1939.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1941.1622187500002,"end":1944.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1946.30909375,"end":1948.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1950.5784687500002,"end":1954.1222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1955.7928437500002,"end":1959.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1963.9603437500002,"end":1966.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1969.3097187500002,"end":1972.2459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1974.6590937500002,"end":1978.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1980.61596875,"end":1983.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1986.1340937500001,"end":1989.1209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1990.5553437500002,"end":1993.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1994.4365937500002,"end":1996.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1997.9803437500002,"end":2001.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2002.1990937500002,"end":2005.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2006.7553437500003,"end":2010.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2012.2903437500001,"end":2016.0197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2018.6184687500001,"end":2021.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2023.4109687500002,"end":2026.7015937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2028.3047187500001,"end":2031.6290937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2032.79346875,"end":2037.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2043.2728437500002,"end":2058.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2070.99846875,"end":2072.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2072.80409375,"end":2075.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2075.68971875,"end":2079.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2079.7734687500006,"end":2086.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2086.84409375,"end":2086.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2087.02971875,"end":2106.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2107.4147187500002,"end":2118.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2119.0078437500006,"end":2128.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2128.18784375,"end":2133.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2134.04346875,"end":2138.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2138.48159375,"end":2165.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2166.4940937500005,"end":2182.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2183.1328437500006,"end":2190.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2190.5915937500004,"end":2193.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2193.81471875,"end":2198.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2199.0290937500004,"end":2220.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2220.7978437500005,"end":2237.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2238.1959687500002,"end":2239.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2240.54159375,"end":2252.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2252.5565937500005,"end":2256.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2257.3153437500005,"end":2264.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2265.0947187500005,"end":2280.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2281.2440937500005,"end":2309.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2309.1553437500006,"end":2315.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2316.41159375,"end":2334.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2335.56471875,"end":2350.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2351.0390937500006,"end":2352.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2353.1990937500004,"end":2357.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2357.40096875,"end":2374.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2374.63034375,"end":2378.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2379.81096875,"end":2390.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2390.22284375,"end":2394.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2394.27284375,"end":2403.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2404.51596875,"end":2411.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2411.8903437500003,"end":2423.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2424.3103437500004,"end":2431.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2431.65096875,"end":2439.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2440.81409375,"end":2447.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2447.0409687500005,"end":2451.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2452.18784375,"end":2455.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2455.19159375,"end":2464.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2465.7215937500005,"end":2470.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2471.05409375,"end":2492.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2492.9578437500004,"end":2494.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2494.8984687500006,"end":2512.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2512.1278437500005,"end":2525.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2525.5097187500005,"end":2532.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2537.7272187500002,"end":2541.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2550.6872187500003,"end":2598.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2599.01721875,"end":2604.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2604.9403437500005,"end":2607.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2607.62346875,"end":2623.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2632.21034375,"end":2635.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2635.82159375,"end":2638.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2639.33159375,"end":2640.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2641.0865937500002,"end":2642.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2643.1959687500002,"end":2645.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2646.68909375,"end":2649.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2649.4903437500006,"end":2651.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2652.22409375,"end":2653.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2654.09721875,"end":2655.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2656.4597187500003,"end":2659.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2660.3747187500003,"end":2663.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2663.5134687500004,"end":2667.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2667.71534375,"end":2670.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2671.27596875,"end":2672.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2672.6090937500003,"end":2675.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2675.9840937500003,"end":2678.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2679.62909375,"end":2681.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2681.73846875,"end":2684.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2684.89409375,"end":2687.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2687.54346875,"end":2691.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2692.16721875,"end":2697.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2698.19159375,"end":2701.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2702.19096875,"end":2706.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2706.7472187500007,"end":2710.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2710.74659375,"end":2713.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2714.00346875,"end":2716.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2716.9228437500005,"end":2719.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2720.0447187500004,"end":2721.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2721.5634687500005,"end":2722.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2722.55909375,"end":2728.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2728.75221875,"end":2732.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2732.6503437500005,"end":2734.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2735.3503437500003,"end":2737.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2738.33721875,"end":2741.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2742.0497187500005,"end":2744.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2744.78346875,"end":2749.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2749.84596875,"end":2753.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2753.7440937500005,"end":2753.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2753.8115937500006,"end":2758.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2759.2284687500005,"end":2761.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2761.96221875,"end":2764.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2764.51034375,"end":2769.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2770.04534375,"end":2778.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2779.32659375,"end":2783.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2783.73096875,"end":2786.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2786.4140937500006,"end":2789.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2789.8397187500004,"end":2791.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2792.26971875,"end":2797.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2797.8722187500007,"end":2799.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2800.3190937500003,"end":2805.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2805.6347187500005,"end":2808.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2809.14471875,"end":2813.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2814.5447187500004,"end":2817.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2817.53159375,"end":2819.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2820.2147187500004,"end":2827.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2827.9772187500002,"end":2831.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2831.7740937500002,"end":2833.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2833.79909375,"end":2837.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2838.2878437500003,"end":2839.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2840.44784375,"end":2842.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2842.96221875,"end":2845.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2845.5272187500004,"end":2847.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2848.02471875,"end":2849.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2850.1678437500004,"end":2851.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2852.2772187500004,"end":2853.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2854.53846875,"end":2856.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2856.9684687500003,"end":2861.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2861.65971875,"end":2862.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2863.0603437500004,"end":2866.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2866.58721875,"end":2874.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2875.6153437500006,"end":2877.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2877.9609687500006,"end":2881.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2882.4159687500005,"end":2883.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2883.59721875,"end":2892.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2893.35096875,"end":2895.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2895.8990937500002,"end":2897.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2898.0759687500004,"end":2900.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2901.3834687500002,"end":2903.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2903.9990937500006,"end":2906.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2906.90159375,"end":2913.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2913.8878437500007,"end":2917.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2917.81971875,"end":2922.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2922.88221875,"end":2924.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2924.2490937500006,"end":2927.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2927.6747187500005,"end":2930.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2930.35784375,"end":2934.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2935.30221875,"end":2939.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2939.7909687500005,"end":2943.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2944.0603437500004,"end":2948.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2948.92034375,"end":2950.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2950.8272187500006,"end":2955.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2955.95721875,"end":2960.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2960.96909375,"end":2962.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2963.33159375,"end":2965.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2965.62659375,"end":2968.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2968.7315937500007,"end":2970.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2970.7059687500005,"end":2973.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2973.27096875,"end":2975.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2975.75159375,"end":2978.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2978.80596875,"end":2983.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2983.80096875,"end":2989.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2989.96034375,"end":2998.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2998.56659375,"end":3000.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3000.8278437500003,"end":3006.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3006.53159375,"end":3009.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3009.8222187500005,"end":3011.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3012.4715937500005,"end":3014.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3014.1590937500005,"end":3015.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3015.7790937500004,"end":3017.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3017.7197187500005,"end":3020.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3021.8878437500007,"end":3024.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3024.55409375,"end":3025.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3025.7859687500004,"end":3027.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3027.55784375,"end":3030.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3030.64596875,"end":3031.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3032.0634687500005,"end":3032.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3033.6328437500006,"end":3036.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3036.61971875,"end":3044.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3045.58034375,"end":3057.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3058.11846875,"end":3061.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3062.23596875,"end":3064.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3064.34534375,"end":3066.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3066.5222187500003,"end":3068.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3068.8340937500006,"end":3070.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3071.0615937500006,"end":3073.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3073.7109687500006,"end":3076.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3076.56284375,"end":3080.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3081.5409687500005,"end":3085.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3087.04221875,"end":3090.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3091.0584687500004,"end":3092.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3092.89784375,"end":3097.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3097.47096875,"end":3100.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3101.3015937500004,"end":3104.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3104.8622187500005,"end":3106.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3107.42721875,"end":3109.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3109.89096875,"end":3111.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3112.23659375,"end":3113.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3114.2615937500004,"end":3117.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3117.60284375,"end":3119.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3119.72909375,"end":3121.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3122.56409375,"end":3127.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3127.9472187500005,"end":3131.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3131.17034375,"end":3135.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3135.8278437500003,"end":3137.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3138.03846875,"end":3139.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3139.4053437500006,"end":3154.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3154.60971875,"end":3167.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3168.3122187500003,"end":3170.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3170.7253437500003,"end":3174.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3174.7247187500006,"end":3176.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3176.91846875,"end":3179.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3180.0234687500006,"end":3182.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3182.87534375,"end":3185.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3186.08159375,"end":3189.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3189.86159375,"end":3192.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3192.9834687500006,"end":3193.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3194.6540937500004,"end":3205.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3206.09534375,"end":3208.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3208.5084687500002,"end":3210.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3210.0947187500005,"end":3211.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3212.0859687500006,"end":3213.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3213.8240937500004,"end":3219.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3219.4434687500006,"end":3223.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3224.7253437500003,"end":3228.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3228.7584687500002,"end":3231.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3231.6778437500006,"end":3233.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3234.3778437500005,"end":3235.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3236.0822187500007,"end":3241.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3242.2584687500002,"end":3244.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3245.2115937500002,"end":3253.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3254.1384687500004,"end":3256.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3257.3278437500003,"end":3259.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3260.0615937500006,"end":3264.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3264.8878437500007,"end":3287.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3288.8503437500003,"end":3293.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3293.96346875,"end":3295.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3296.7478437500004,"end":3306.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3308.2734687500006,"end":3323.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3331.67909375,"end":3334.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3341.5847187500003,"end":3342.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3342.9684687500003,"end":3349.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3349.6847187500007,"end":3369.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3369.8503437500003,"end":3374.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3375.3009687500007,"end":3382.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3383.21534375,"end":3388.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3388.9697187500005,"end":3402.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3393.1715937500003,"end":3393.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3402.7734687500006,"end":3403.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3402.80721875,"end":3420.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3420.62721875,"end":3422.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3422.8884687500004,"end":3424.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3424.2215937500005,"end":3525.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3525.2353437500005,"end":3546.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3546.97034375,"end":3578.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3578.96534375,"end":3629.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3629.94471875,"end":3639.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3639.88409375,"end":3663.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3663.94784375,"end":3684.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3685.6659687500005,"end":3687.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3687.31971875,"end":3693.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3694.3565937500007,"end":3696.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3696.4997187500003,"end":3703.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3704.2115937500002,"end":3729.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3730.5534687500003,"end":3732.9328437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3732.9665937500004,"end":3733.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3733.0847187500003,"end":3763.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3764.7422187500006,"end":3856.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3856.5084687500002,"end":3886.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3886.6134687500007,"end":3886.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3886.81596875,"end":3889.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3888.2334687500006,"end":3893.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3892.8065937500005,"end":3894.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3894.1397187500006,"end":3930.3703437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3930.7584687500002,"end":3958.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3958.95659375,"end":3976.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3976.7090937500006,"end":3986.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3986.6990937500004,"end":3987.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3995.9972187500007,"end":3996.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3996.80721875,"end":4000.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4005.4303437500002,"end":4005.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4011.6572187500005,"end":4014.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4018.8290937500005,"end":4020.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4021.69784375,"end":4022.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4022.8115937500006,"end":4082.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4084.72596875,"end":4090.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4092.1172187500006,"end":4098.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4098.276593750001,"end":4106.190968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4103.288468750001,"end":4103.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4103.30534375,"end":4103.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4106.714093750001,"end":4110.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4110.173468749999,"end":4111.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4111.962218750001,"end":4117.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4112.333468750001,"end":4113.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4113.90284375,"end":4115.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4117.00784375,"end":4117.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4117.9697187500005,"end":4118.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4118.12159375,"end":4125.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4118.155343750001,"end":4118.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4118.45909375,"end":4118.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4118.50971875,"end":4118.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4118.526593750001,"end":4118.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4125.934718750001,"end":4126.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4126.356593750001,"end":4128.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4128.63471875,"end":4131.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4128.786593750001,"end":4129.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4130.237843749999,"end":4133.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4133.30909375,"end":4137.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4137.747218750001,"end":4142.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4142.235968749999,"end":4142.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4142.421593749999,"end":4142.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4142.55659375,"end":4142.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4142.77596875,"end":4142.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4142.82659375,"end":4148.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4148.59784375,"end":4154.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4154.335343750001,"end":4156.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4156.5965937500005,"end":4157.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4157.25471875,"end":4157.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4159.14471875,"end":4161.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4159.347218749999,"end":4167.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4167.39659375,"end":4169.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4167.76784375,"end":4201.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4201.61909375,"end":4211.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4209.921593749999,"end":4210.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4211.2040937500005,"end":4218.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4217.4647187499995,"end":4227.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4219.89471875,"end":4220.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4227.52221875,"end":4241.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4240.14471875,"end":4242.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4241.612843749999,"end":4247.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4246.92846875,"end":4250.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4247.232218749999,"end":4247.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4250.421593749999,"end":4253.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4253.290343750001,"end":4255.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4254.15096875,"end":4254.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4254.33659375,"end":4255.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4255.669718749999,"end":4288.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4275.413468750001,"end":4275.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4282.55159375,"end":4282.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4283.44596875,"end":4284.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4286.095343749999,"end":4286.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4286.331593749999,"end":4286.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4288.592843750001,"end":4292.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4288.66034375,"end":4289.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4291.343468749999,"end":4291.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4292.40659375,"end":4300.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4294.33034375,"end":4295.190968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4295.325968749999,"end":4295.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4297.874093750001,"end":4299.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4300.439093749999,"end":4309.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4306.9022187499995,"end":4307.425343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4309.534718749999,"end":4329.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4311.86346875,"end":4312.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4315.94721875,"end":4316.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4316.03159375,"end":4316.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4317.3309687500005,"end":4317.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4317.5165937500005,"end":4317.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4317.600968750001,"end":4317.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4317.837218750001,"end":4317.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4329.548468749999,"end":4347.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4330.4090937500005,"end":4330.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4331.92784375,"end":4332.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4332.80534375,"end":4333.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4339.08284375,"end":4340.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4340.34846875,"end":4340.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4341.4959687499995,"end":4341.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4343.87534375,"end":4344.550343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4345.32659375,"end":4348.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4348.718468749999,"end":4349.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4349.1572187500005,"end":4390.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4390.88909375,"end":4443.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4444.9228437500005,"end":4520.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4521.01221875,"end":4522.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4524.75846875,"end":4540.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4540.60409375,"end":4543.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4541.7684687500005,"end":4558.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4549.42971875,"end":4549.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4553.64846875,"end":4557.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4558.03596875,"end":4558.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4558.08659375,"end":4577.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4558.10346875,"end":4558.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4579.83846875,"end":4580.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4579.93971875,"end":4580.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4580.614718750001,"end":4580.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4580.63159375,"end":4580.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4581.28971875,"end":4595.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4594.300343749999,"end":4598.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4600.8309687500005,"end":4603.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4602.839093750001,"end":4667.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4668.4490937499995,"end":4673.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4674.2372187500005,"end":4676.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4676.8865937499995,"end":4749.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4693.18784375,"end":4695.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4746.86721875,"end":4749.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4750.444718750001,"end":4754.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4753.262843750001,"end":4795.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4796.142218749999,"end":4802.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4803.48284375,"end":4832.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4834.46534375,"end":4842.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4842.784718750001,"end":4842.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4842.885968750001,"end":4870.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4843.4090937500005,"end":4843.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4843.42596875,"end":4843.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4843.74659375,"end":4843.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4843.84784375,"end":4843.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4843.88159375,"end":4843.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4843.999718749999,"end":4844.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4844.06721875,"end":4844.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4844.11784375,"end":4844.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4845.602843750001,"end":4845.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4870.9490937499995,"end":4890.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4890.15284375,"end":4891.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4890.76034375,"end":4899.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4892.616593750001,"end":4892.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4895.097218750001,"end":4895.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4899.16409375,"end":4899.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4899.180968750001,"end":4905.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4905.62721875,"end":4916.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4915.78596875,"end":4923.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4924.4090937500005,"end":4937.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4936.2215937500005,"end":4936.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4937.13284375,"end":4937.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4937.6728437500005,"end":4946.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4946.97096875,"end":4946.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4946.987843750001,"end":4964.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4964.655968749999,"end":4969.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4969.51596875,"end":4976.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4975.489718750001,"end":4983.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4983.33659375,"end":4987.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4987.31909375,"end":4990.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4989.02346875,"end":4997.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4992.702218750001,"end":5008.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5008.5478437500005,"end":5011.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5011.585343750001,"end":5039.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5016.90096875,"end":5017.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5017.45784375,"end":5017.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5018.74034375,"end":5019.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5019.82034375,"end":5019.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5019.8709687499995,"end":5019.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5039.46284375,"end":5039.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5039.7665937500005,"end":5066.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5054.4647187499995,"end":5054.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5060.06721875,"end":5060.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5060.97846875,"end":5061.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5067.01971875,"end":5080.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5077.9715937500005,"end":5079.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5080.57034375,"end":5099.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5092.88909375,"end":5092.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5092.905968749999,"end":5093.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5097.10784375,"end":5100.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5100.465968750001,"end":5100.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5100.82034375,"end":5116.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5114.522843750001,"end":5128.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5118.977843750001,"end":5120.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5120.88471875,"end":5121.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5123.21346875,"end":5123.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5127.837218750001,"end":5143.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5143.530968749999,"end":5145.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5143.952843749999,"end":5154.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5151.833468750001,"end":5152.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5155.03971875,"end":5159.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5156.339093750001,"end":5157.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5158.077218750001,"end":5159.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5159.663468750001,"end":5183.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5182.343468749999,"end":5194.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5186.54534375,"end":5189.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5189.26221875,"end":5189.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5189.65034375,"end":5190.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5192.53596875,"end":5195.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5195.03346875,"end":5199.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5197.395968750001,"end":5202.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5200.88909375,"end":5223.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5223.687218749999,"end":5239.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5239.448468750001,"end":5244.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5239.9715937500005,"end":5242.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5243.63346875,"end":5247.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5245.50659375,"end":5245.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5246.704718749999,"end":5248.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5248.79721875,"end":5264.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5265.72284375,"end":5266.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5265.80721875,"end":5267.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5268.034718750001,"end":5271.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5292.739718750001,"end":5296.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5297.49846875,"end":5300.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5306.69534375,"end":5307.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5307.876593749999,"end":5309.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5310.9647187499995,"end":5321.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5322.33846875,"end":5328.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5329.763468749999,"end":5331.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5331.029093749999,"end":5331.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5331.2147187499995,"end":5331.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5331.75471875,"end":5347.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5344.579718749999,"end":5345.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5347.077218750001,"end":5348.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5348.73096875,"end":5349.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5349.692843750001,"end":5401.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5350.41846875,"end":5351.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5354.58659375,"end":5354.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5354.60346875,"end":5355.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5355.970343749999,"end":5356.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5356.32471875,"end":5356.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5361.99471875,"end":5362.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5367.0740937499995,"end":5367.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5402.30909375,"end":5402.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5402.528468750001,"end":5403.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5403.085343750001,"end":5440.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5406.966593749999,"end":5407.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5440.9022187499995,"end":5453.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5450.79096875,"end":5454.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5453.54159375,"end":5487.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5487.81471875,"end":5590.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5516.73846875,"end":5517.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5532.58409375,"end":5533.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5591.68034375,"end":5594.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5593.637843750001,"end":5602.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5602.395968750001,"end":5635.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5637.15846875,"end":5646.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5637.34409375,"end":5637.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5647.75596875,"end":5659.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5661.28971875,"end":5671.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5666.16659375,"end":5668.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5670.503468750001,"end":5670.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5671.583468750001,"end":5685.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5671.634093750001,"end":5671.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5686.70346875,"end":5695.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5695.19159375,"end":5714.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5697.317843750001,"end":5698.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5713.93971875,"end":5744.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5743.167218750001,"end":5755.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5745.782843749999,"end":5745.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5754.878468750001,"end":5762.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5763.06284375,"end":5766.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5766.825968749999,"end":5770.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5767.41659375,"end":5768.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5769.71159375,"end":5772.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5771.12909375,"end":5775.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5773.23846875,"end":5773.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5775.314093749999,"end":5779.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5778.419093750001,"end":5787.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5787.784718750001,"end":5793.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5794.669718749999,"end":5796.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5797.015343749999,"end":5798.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5798.83784375,"end":5799.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5799.10784375,"end":5804.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5803.630343750001,"end":5814.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5812.18596875,"end":5817.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5816.421593749999,"end":5823.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5818.17659375,"end":5818.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5823.66096875,"end":5840.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5841.39659375,"end":5855.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5856.702218750001,"end":5857.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5857.61346875,"end":5874.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5875.028468750001,"end":5877.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5877.72846875,"end":5877.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5877.86346875,"end":5889.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5886.267218750001,"end":5887.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5890.2665937500005,"end":5892.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5891.16096875,"end":5894.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5895.649718750001,"end":5905.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5905.09971875,"end":5905.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5905.94346875,"end":5907.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5906.77034375,"end":5909.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5909.571593750001,"end":5922.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5920.2197187500005,"end":5923.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5923.88159375,"end":5930.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5927.897843750001,"end":5939.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5939.187218749999,"end":5941.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5941.46534375,"end":5942.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5943.405968749999,"end":5944.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5945.093468749999,"end":5968.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5969.241593750001,"end":5973.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5973.67971875,"end":6004.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6003.2615937499995,"end":6036.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6037.905968749999,"end":6075.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6042.05721875,"end":6049.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6076.36409375,"end":6076.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6076.85346875,"end":6088.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6089.03721875,"end":6105.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6092.63159375,"end":6093.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6105.692843750001,"end":6112.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6114.450968749999,"end":6143.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6119.800343750001,"end":6119.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6144.6572187500005,"end":6146.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6146.63159375,"end":6146.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6147.644093750001,"end":6149.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6148.42034375,"end":6155.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6156.368468750001,"end":6156.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6156.4697187500005,"end":6157.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6157.499093750001,"end":6164.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6164.82284375,"end":6168.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6169.14284375,"end":6169.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6169.159718750001,"end":6169.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6169.41284375,"end":6169.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6169.716593749999,"end":6175.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6170.83034375,"end":6170.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6170.847218750001,"end":6172.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6176.483468750001,"end":6178.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6177.52971875,"end":6183.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6183.8240937499995,"end":6185.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6186.034718750001,"end":6187.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6187.536593750001,"end":6190.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6190.962218750001,"end":6201.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6201.72846875,"end":6202.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6202.04909375,"end":6204.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6202.251593750001,"end":6240.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6222.72096875,"end":6224.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6225.505343750001,"end":6225.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6240.72659375,"end":6273.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6274.5947187500005,"end":6279.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6279.842843750001,"end":6287.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6286.305968750001,"end":6303.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6303.85596875,"end":6345.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6346.1278437500005,"end":6350.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6348.642218750001,"end":6350.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6350.63346875,"end":6351.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6350.86971875,"end":6362.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6360.8934687500005,"end":6365.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6365.36534375,"end":6365.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6365.39909375,"end":6365.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6365.669093750001,"end":6365.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6365.7197187500005,"end":6365.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6366.44534375,"end":6376.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6366.86721875,"end":6366.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6366.884093750001,"end":6369.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6379.067843750001,"end":6380.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6379.13534375,"end":6388.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6384.231593750001,"end":6384.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6384.24846875,"end":6384.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6388.264718750001,"end":6437.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6437.944718750001,"end":6439.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6440.189093750001,"end":6479.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6477.8709687499995,"end":6494.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6479.82846875,"end":6480.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6481.00971875,"end":6483.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6486.94971875,"end":6488.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6488.755343750001,"end":6489.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6489.5653437500005,"end":6490.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6494.2059687500005,"end":6494.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6495.35346875,"end":6511.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6510.692843750001,"end":6512.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6512.17784375,"end":6512.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6513.66284375,"end":6531.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6513.71346875,"end":6513.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6513.7303437499995,"end":6513.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6513.76409375,"end":6513.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6514.08471875,"end":6514.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6514.13534375,"end":6514.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6514.202843749999,"end":6514.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6514.304093750001,"end":6514.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6514.33784375,"end":6514.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6514.624718749999,"end":6514.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6531.43221875,"end":6542.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6539.4647187499995,"end":6540.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6541.33784375,"end":6546.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6547.37909375,"end":6550.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6548.155343750001,"end":6548.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6548.2059687500005,"end":6548.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6548.796593749999,"end":6548.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6551.68221875,"end":6551.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6551.715968750001,"end":6563.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6562.51596875,"end":6564.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6565.57034375,"end":6579.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6573.231593750001,"end":6573.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6573.40034375,"end":6573.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6573.61971875,"end":6573.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6580.437218749999,"end":6588.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6586.022843750001,"end":6592.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6591.270968750001,"end":6597.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6597.10971875,"end":6597.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6598.4090937500005,"end":6600.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6600.34971875,"end":6615.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6600.56909375,"end":6601.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6612.80346875,"end":6618.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6616.296593749999,"end":6668.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6622.10159375,"end":6623.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6667.46159375,"end":6669.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6669.80721875,"end":6670.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6671.07284375,"end":6671.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6673.14846875,"end":6674.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6675.460343750001,"end":6676.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.23659375,"end":6676.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.47284375,"end":6676.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6676.50659375,"end":6676.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.540343750001,"end":6676.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6676.590968750001,"end":6676.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.60784375,"end":6676.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6676.65846875,"end":6676.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6690.95159375,"end":6694.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6699.979718750001,"end":6703.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6703.47284375,"end":6705.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6714.47534375,"end":6718.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6716.280968749999,"end":6717.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6719.470343750001,"end":6721.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6722.69346875,"end":6723.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6723.67221875,"end":6724.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6725.8153437500005,"end":6727.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6727.536593750001,"end":6728.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6730.18596875,"end":6733.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6738.10034375,"end":6739.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6740.64846875,"end":6742.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6743.247218750001,"end":6746.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6747.3309687500005,"end":6748.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6749.08596875,"end":6749.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6750.30096875,"end":6750.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6751.684718750001,"end":6753.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6754.013468749999,"end":6754.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6755.329718750001,"end":6763.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6763.88534375,"end":6770.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6771.360968750001,"end":6774.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6775.27596875,"end":6780.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6780.929093750001,"end":6783.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6783.932843750001,"end":6789.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6789.687218749999,"end":6791.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6792.1678437499995,"end":6796.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6797.41596875,"end":6807.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6808.857218749999,"end":6811.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6812.11409375,"end":6814.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6814.98284375,"end":6816.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6817.5478437500005,"end":6822.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6824.2303437499995,"end":6825.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6826.305968750001,"end":6829.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6829.866593750001,"end":6830.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6831.452843749999,"end":6832.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6832.870343750001,"end":6834.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6835.013468749999,"end":6835.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6835.97534375,"end":6836.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6837.49409375,"end":6839.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6840.48096875,"end":6842.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6843.0965937500005,"end":6844.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6845.290343750001,"end":6846.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6847.028468750001,"end":6851.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6852.34409375,"end":6853.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6854.03159375,"end":6855.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6855.786593750001,"end":6857.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6858.182843750001,"end":6859.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6860.5115937499995,"end":6871.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6872.526593750001,"end":6879.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6879.76596875,"end":6884.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6884.389718750001,"end":6886.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6886.36409375,"end":6891.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6891.39284375,"end":6894.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6895.4090937500005,"end":6896.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6906.884093750001,"end":6918.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6919.10159375,"end":6929.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6929.850968750001,"end":6932.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6933.225968750001,"end":6933.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6933.749093750001,"end":6935.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6935.53784375,"end":6938.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6938.997218750001,"end":6943.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6944.430968750001,"end":6945.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6945.7303437499995,"end":6948.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6949.577843750001,"end":6952.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6952.581593750001,"end":6957.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6958.217843750001,"end":6961.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6961.55909375,"end":6962.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6963.229718750001,"end":6965.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6965.50784375,"end":6968.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6969.0009687500005,"end":6970.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6971.07659375,"end":6987.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6988.356593750001,"end":6992.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6993.25034375,"end":6998.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6999.49409375,"end":7001.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7002.05909375,"end":7018.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7019.187218750001,"end":7019.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7021.262843750001,"end":7024.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7024.94159375,"end":7032.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7032.80534375,"end":7033.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7033.98659375,"end":7034.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7036.0115937499995,"end":7039.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7039.84221875,"end":7042.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7043.11596875,"end":7049.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7050.085343750001,"end":7058.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7058.91096875,"end":7061.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7062.927218750001,"end":7070.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7071.29721875,"end":7073.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7075.583468750001,"end":7076.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7077.47346875,"end":7079.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7079.78534375,"end":7085.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7086.33284375,"end":7087.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7087.497218750001,"end":7091.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7092.20534375,"end":7093.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7093.639718750001,"end":7095.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7095.884093750001,"end":7096.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7097.13284375,"end":7100.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7101.7059687500005,"end":7102.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7103.292218750001,"end":7107.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7107.882218750001,"end":7109.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7110.700343750001,"end":7126.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7126.74846875,"end":7128.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7129.04346875,"end":7129.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7130.528468750001,"end":7132.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7132.60409375,"end":7136.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7136.8397187499995,"end":7149.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7154.5584687499995,"end":7155.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7155.638468749999,"end":7156.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7156.769093750001,"end":7159.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7160.44784375,"end":7162.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7162.79346875,"end":7165.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7166.472218750001,"end":7178.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7179.14534375,"end":7182.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7183.22909375,"end":7184.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7184.849093750001,"end":7206.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7206.837218750001,"end":7208.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7209.06471875,"end":7218.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7218.936593750001,"end":7219.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7220.708468750001,"end":7226.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7227.01971875,"end":7232.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7232.53784375,"end":7248.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7248.788468750001,"end":7249.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7250.35784375,"end":7254.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7254.71159375,"end":7255.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7255.960343750001,"end":7259.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7260.077843750001,"end":7262.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7263.267218750001,"end":7265.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7266.25409375,"end":7267.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7269.645968750001,"end":7270.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7270.94534375,"end":7271.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7272.10971875,"end":7272.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7273.32471875,"end":7276.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7277.22284375,"end":7284.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7285.019093750001,"end":7288.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7289.32221875,"end":7291.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7291.38096875,"end":7292.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7293.54096875,"end":7294.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7295.194718750001,"end":7296.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7297.4559687500005,"end":7299.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7300.32471875,"end":7302.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7304.138468749999,"end":7305.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7306.0790937500005,"end":7308.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7310.26409375,"end":7313.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7313.74034375,"end":7314.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7314.921593750001,"end":7317.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7318.41471875,"end":7324.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7325.13096875,"end":7326.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7326.48096875,"end":7330.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7331.25659375,"end":7333.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7334.68221875,"end":7335.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7336.167218750001,"end":7337.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7337.78721875,"end":7338.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7339.592843750001,"end":7345.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7345.43159375,"end":7346.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7346.96721875,"end":7354.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7355.06721875,"end":7356.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7357.37909375,"end":7360.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7361.7665937500005,"end":7364.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7365.462218750001,"end":7366.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7367.53784375,"end":7369.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7370.96346875,"end":7371.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7372.077218750001,"end":7372.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7374.54096875,"end":7375.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7375.5028437500005,"end":7378.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7379.45159375,"end":7380.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7380.734093750001,"end":7382.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7383.045968750001,"end":7384.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7384.716593749999,"end":7385.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7386.62346875,"end":7387.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7388.7665937500005,"end":7400.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7402.31721875,"end":7404.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7405.675343750001,"end":7406.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7406.68784375,"end":7407.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7407.95346875,"end":7423.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7423.5965937500005,"end":7434.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7435.392218750001,"end":7436.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7436.97846875,"end":7438.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7438.952843750001,"end":7444.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7447.03596875,"end":7464.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7464.974093750001,"end":7468.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7469.17596875,"end":7470.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7471.09971875,"end":7472.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7473.61409375,"end":7476.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7476.90471875,"end":7480.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7480.583468750001,"end":7481.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7481.342843750001,"end":7485.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7485.325343750001,"end":7486.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7486.827218750001,"end":7488.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7489.679093750001,"end":7490.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7491.045968750001,"end":7493.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7494.032843750001,"end":7502.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7503.179093750001,"end":7506.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7506.75659375,"end":7511.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7511.717843750001,"end":7513.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7513.74284375,"end":7523.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7524.28971875,"end":7543.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7544.40471875,"end":7545.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7546.395968750001,"end":7579.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7579.94346875,"end":7594.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7595.18159375,"end":7597.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7598.151593750001,"end":7599.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7599.77159375,"end":7600.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7601.40846875,"end":7602.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7602.792218750001,"end":7606.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7606.960343750001,"end":7610.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7611.21284375,"end":7622.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7622.519093750001,"end":7626.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7626.467843750001,"end":7666.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7666.61346875,"end":7669.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7669.482218749999,"end":7669.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7669.98846875,"end":7670.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7670.342843750001,"end":7671.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7673.616593750001,"end":7674.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7676.097218750001,"end":7689.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7700.78534375,"end":7703.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7703.95784375,"end":7704.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7710.28596875,"end":7711.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7711.686593750001,"end":7712.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7711.9228437500005,"end":7711.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7713.86346875,"end":7722.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7723.026593750001,"end":7728.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7728.89909375,"end":7732.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7732.03784375,"end":7732.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7732.1728437500005,"end":7760.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7761.19784375,"end":7829.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7823.061593750001,"end":7823.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7823.34846875,"end":7823.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7829.9803437499995,"end":7856.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7834.84034375,"end":7835.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7856.35596875,"end":7878.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7878.360968750001,"end":7895.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7895.97846875,"end":7907.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7907.284718750001,"end":7914.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7910.895968750001,"end":7911.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7915.064093750001,"end":7935.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7927.80471875,"end":7927.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7927.8553437499995,"end":7928.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7928.17596875,"end":7928.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7933.120343750001,"end":7963.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7963.022843750001,"end":7963.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7963.815968750001,"end":8009.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8009.479718750001,"end":8056.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8057.35409375,"end":8062.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8062.9228437500005,"end":8109.919718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8109.919718750001,"end":8110.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8110.307843750001,"end":8111.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8112.029093750001,"end":8134.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8135.097218750001,"end":8164.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8164.257218750001,"end":8187.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8178.786593750001,"end":8178.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8178.972218750001,"end":8179.107218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8187.42659375,"end":8187.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8187.62909375,"end":8187.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8187.66284375,"end":8213.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8213.76846875,"end":8222.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8222.40846875,"end":8232.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8232.077843750001,"end":8234.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8235.18284375,"end":8305.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8257.06971875,"end":8257.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8305.77096875,"end":8308.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8308.57221875,"end":8341.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8341.02284375,"end":8344.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8345.17409375,"end":8356.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8356.649093750002,"end":8360.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8360.36159375,"end":8373.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8374.43534375,"end":8401.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8377.894718750002,"end":8378.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8402.312843750002,"end":8416.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8416.89284375,"end":8430.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8425.684718750003,"end":8426.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8430.19034375,"end":8432.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8432.637218750002,"end":8457.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8457.679718750001,"end":8517.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8482.55346875,"end":8482.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8517.653468750003,"end":8533.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8533.58346875,"end":8544.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8545.058468750001,"end":8547.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8546.290343750003,"end":8547.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8551.58909375,"end":8563.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8564.66721875,"end":8568.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8579.88846875,"end":8581.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8581.879718750002,"end":8584.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8584.410968750002,"end":8585.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8587.65096875,"end":8590.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8590.77284375,"end":8593.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8592.24096875,"end":8592.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8593.844093750002,"end":8594.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8598.653468750003,"end":8598.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8598.97409375,"end":8599.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8599.78409375,"end":8604.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8605.26846875,"end":8815.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8815.969718750002,"end":8827.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8818.56846875,"end":8818.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8827.10721875,"end":8827.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8827.360343750002,"end":8836.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8834.39721875,"end":8834.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8836.793468750002,"end":8837.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8837.215343750002,"end":8882.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8840.168468750002,"end":8840.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8841.97409375,"end":8842.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8848.20096875,"end":8849.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8851.64346875,"end":8851.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8852.90909375,"end":8853.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8856.60471875,"end":8856.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8860.266593750002,"end":8860.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8860.87409375,"end":8860.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8860.97534375,"end":8861.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8867.20221875,"end":8867.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8874.644093750001,"end":8875.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8877.52971875,"end":8877.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8880.65159375,"end":8881.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8881.63034375,"end":8882.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8882.49096875,"end":8909.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8885.460968750001,"end":8885.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8893.999718750001,"end":8894.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8899.21409375,"end":8899.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8907.465968750003,"end":8907.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8909.84534375,"end":8975.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8921.050343750001,"end":8921.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8921.13471875,"end":8921.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8921.18534375,"end":8921.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8946.04221875,"end":8946.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8946.430343750002,"end":8946.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8975.10096875,"end":8975.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8975.40471875,"end":8975.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8975.77596875,"end":8977.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8980.66971875,"end":9099.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9101.12346875,"end":9102.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9103.55346875,"end":9111.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9111.87284375,"end":9111.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9111.92346875,"end":9112.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9112.480343750001,"end":9169.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9118.082843750002,"end":9118.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9121.79534375,"end":9121.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9121.862843750001,"end":9121.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9121.94721875,"end":9121.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9137.691593750002,"end":9137.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9154.212218750003,"end":9154.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9170.665343750003,"end":9181.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9181.02659375,"end":9208.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9208.17846875,"end":9269.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9270.34596875,"end":9288.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9289.87034375,"end":9294.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9307.386593750001,"end":9309.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9310.356593750003,"end":9312.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9316.684718750003,"end":9319.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9320.852843750003,"end":9322.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9322.590968750003,"end":9345.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9345.422843750002,"end":9346.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9346.266593750002,"end":9367.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9368.91284375,"end":9378.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9378.71721875,"end":9381.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9381.653468750003,"end":9382.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9383.391593750002,"end":9417.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9417.934718750003,"end":9442.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9443.36534375,"end":9454.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9454.28346875,"end":9464.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9464.67846875,"end":9469.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9470.36534375,"end":9477.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9477.73971875,"end":9502.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9486.19409375,"end":9486.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9499.54221875,"end":9501.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9502.512218750002,"end":9502.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9502.934093750002,"end":9508.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9505.988468750002,"end":9506.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9509.24534375,"end":9511.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9512.75534375,"end":9514.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9515.45534375,"end":9518.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9519.066593750002,"end":9519.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9520.180343750002,"end":9527.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9528.195968750002,"end":9530.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9530.457218750002,"end":9531.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9531.70596875,"end":9538.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9538.523468750001,"end":9543.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9544.277843750002,"end":9552.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9553.64346875,"end":9558.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9558.891593750002,"end":9563.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9564.61221875,"end":9577.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9577.62284375,"end":9585.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9585.60471875,"end":9595.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9595.83096875,"end":9597.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9596.35409375,"end":9608.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9608.11596875,"end":9614.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9615.49034375,"end":9623.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9622.797218750002,"end":9629.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9629.73284375,"end":9631.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9631.808468750001,"end":9635.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9635.85846875,"end":9639.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9639.23346875,"end":9644.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9645.730343750001,"end":9646.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9647.046593750001,"end":9650.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9650.742218750001,"end":9654.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9654.42096875,"end":9655.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9655.34909375,"end":9664.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9665.035343750002,"end":9671.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9667.48221875,"end":9668.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9671.49846875,"end":9676.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9675.54846875,"end":9676.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9676.476593750001,"end":9680.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9680.50971875,"end":9684.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9684.84659375,"end":9685.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9685.082843750002,"end":9685.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9685.184093750002,"end":9685.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9685.20096875,"end":9685.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9685.285343750002,"end":9685.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9685.774718750003,"end":9685.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9685.79159375,"end":9686.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9687.090968750003,"end":9691.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9691.782218750002,"end":9695.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9695.71409375,"end":9697.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9697.199093750001,"end":9701.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9702.71721875,"end":9711.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9712.555343750002,"end":9716.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9716.75721875,"end":9718.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9718.57971875,"end":9720.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9721.043468750002,"end":9721.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9723.726593750001,"end":9742.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9742.49159375,"end":9746.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9746.32221875,"end":9749.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9749.730968750002,"end":9750.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9750.878468750001,"end":9751.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9751.03034375,"end":9753.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9754.60784375,"end":9756.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9756.734093750001,"end":9757.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9757.71284375,"end":9759.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9760.109093750001,"end":9768.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9768.597218750001,"end":9775.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9774.06471875,"end":9774.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9775.11096875,"end":9796.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9795.42846875,"end":9803.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9800.47409375,"end":9800.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9804.321593750003,"end":9824.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9824.89221875,"end":9858.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9856.11096875,"end":9862.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9859.55346875,"end":9860.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9862.38846875,"end":9876.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9873.644093750001,"end":9874.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9876.023468750001,"end":9876.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9876.968468750001,"end":9888.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9888.54471875,"end":9888.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9889.050968750002,"end":9895.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9895.29471875,"end":9921.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9921.484718750002,"end":9956.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9950.864093750002,"end":9952.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9955.99409375,"end":9962.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9962.558468750001,"end":9965.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9962.575343750003,"end":9962.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9965.629718750002,"end":9975.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9975.585968750001,"end":9992.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9992.612843750001,"end":9997.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9998.18159375,"end":10005.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10004.67846875,"end":10007.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10007.817218750002,"end":10009.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10010.331593750001,"end":10033.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10034.294093750003,"end":10080.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10080.76784375,"end":10086.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10086.62346875,"end":10090.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10090.032218750002,"end":10096.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10096.343468750001,"end":10102.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10099.16159375,"end":10116.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10106.265968750002,"end":10106.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10116.019718750002,"end":10116.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10116.15471875,"end":10116.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10116.42471875,"end":10116.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10119.36096875,"end":10127.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10128.38909375,"end":10128.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10128.405968750001,"end":10134.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10135.24034375,"end":10137.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10137.67034375,"end":10144.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10144.26846875,"end":10144.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10145.247218750003,"end":10148.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10149.33096875,"end":10162.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10162.25721875,"end":10163.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10164.14721875,"end":10165.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10166.13846875,"end":10168.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10168.956593750001,"end":10169.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10170.441593750002,"end":10173.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10173.816593750002,"end":10176.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10176.70221875,"end":10179.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10179.90846875,"end":10181.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10181.933468750001,"end":10188.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10188.54846875,"end":10193.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10194.015968750002,"end":10202.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10203.989093750002,"end":10204.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10204.259093750003,"end":10208.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10208.207843750002,"end":10225.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10225.504718750002,"end":10226.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10227.22596875,"end":10232.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10232.187218750001,"end":10235.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10236.65909375,"end":10238.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10239.426593750002,"end":10242.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10243.645343750002,"end":10245.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10246.73346875,"end":10248.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10249.079093750002,"end":10255.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10257.43221875,"end":10260.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10261.144718750002,"end":10266.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10266.49409375,"end":10269.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10271.23596875,"end":10272.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10273.24409375,"end":10279.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10279.487843750001,"end":10282.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10282.96409375,"end":10287.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10288.22909375,"end":10298.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10298.94471875,"end":10299.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10299.737843750001,"end":10306.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10306.36971875,"end":10307.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10307.31471875,"end":10310.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10311.90471875,"end":10313.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10313.136593750001,"end":10322.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10324.88159375,"end":10329.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10329.167843750001,"end":10331.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10332.37409375,"end":10332.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10337.504093750002,"end":10345.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10346.954093750002,"end":10347.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10361.449718750002,"end":10364.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10364.571593750003,"end":10365.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10371.81096875,"end":10373.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10373.262218750002,"end":10373.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10373.29596875,"end":10373.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10373.852843750003,"end":10374.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10374.578468750002,"end":10377.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10377.66659375,"end":10426.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10427.093468750001,"end":10448.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10448.659718750001,"end":10465.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10466.19284375,"end":10484.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10484.839718750001,"end":10487.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10487.067218750002,"end":10503.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10503.31784375,"end":10531.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10506.000968750002,"end":10506.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10510.422218750002,"end":10510.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10510.45596875,"end":10510.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10520.024093750002,"end":10520.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10530.70596875,"end":10531.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10531.718468750001,"end":10536.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10536.578468750002,"end":10536.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10536.81471875,"end":10537.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10537.000343750002,"end":10553.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10554.11159375,"end":10572.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10572.04971875,"end":10574.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10574.41221875,"end":10584.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10584.38534375,"end":10620.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10618.540343750003,"end":10618.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10619.87346875,"end":10637.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10638.26721875,"end":10653.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10648.30784375,"end":10648.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10653.62346875,"end":10684.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10684.94346875,"end":10710.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10710.94784375,"end":10731.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10732.46346875,"end":10753.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10753.81034375,"end":10771.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10772.01846875,"end":10781.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10781.65409375,"end":10789.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10789.180343750002,"end":10792.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10793.01096875,"end":10818.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10819.52159375,"end":10825.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10825.17471875,"end":10870.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10826.136593750001,"end":10826.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10870.956593750001,"end":10889.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10889.485343750002,"end":10889.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10889.65409375,"end":10944.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10916.82284375,"end":10917.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10939.249718750001,"end":10939.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10945.13909375,"end":10948.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10947.636593750001,"end":10949.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10949.45909375,"end":10967.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10965.692843750003,"end":10985.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10979.46284375,"end":10979.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10981.015343750001,"end":10981.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10983.664718750002,"end":10984.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10984.47471875,"end":10997.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10991.680343750002,"end":10992.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10997.957843750002,"end":10999.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10999.61159375,"end":11001.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11001.56909375,"end":11001.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11001.585968750001,"end":11001.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11003.50971875,"end":11005.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11005.24784375,"end":11007.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11338.59659375,"end":11343.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11347.675343750001,"end":11349.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11350.122218750003,"end":11351.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11358.087218750003,"end":11361.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11362.15409375,"end":11365.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11365.90034375,"end":11369.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11369.86596875,"end":11370.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11370.59159375,"end":11374.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11374.540343750003,"end":11377.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11378.30346875,"end":11382.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11383.484093750001,"end":11386.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11387.669093750003,"end":11392.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11393.42346875,"end":11395.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11395.988468750002,"end":11403.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11403.81846875,"end":11407.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11408.08784375,"end":11412.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11412.593468750001,"end":11414.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11414.43284375,"end":11419.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11419.12409375,"end":11428.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11422.465343750002,"end":11422.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11425.77284375,"end":11425.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11428.101593750001,"end":11434.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11435.52659375,"end":11440.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11440.656593750002,"end":11443.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11444.234093750001,"end":11447.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11447.69346875,"end":11449.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11449.92096875,"end":11451.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11452.33409375,"end":11473.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11474.102843750003,"end":11490.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11487.332843750002,"end":11488.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11490.505343750003,"end":11498.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11498.47034375,"end":11503.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11503.161593750003,"end":11507.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11507.565968750001,"end":11511.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11511.61596875,"end":11512.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11513.219093750002,"end":11531.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11532.405968750001,"end":11537.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11537.62034375,"end":11539.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11539.67909375,"end":11550.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11550.495968750001,"end":11551.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11551.96409375,"end":11555.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11555.71034375,"end":11560.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11560.570343750001,"end":11563.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11564.24909375,"end":11565.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11565.86909375,"end":11569.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11569.598468750002,"end":11572.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11572.703468750002,"end":11607.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11578.677218750003,"end":11578.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11583.300968750002,"end":11583.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11587.418468750002,"end":11587.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11602.84221875,"end":11603.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11607.128468750001,"end":11610.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11610.351593750001,"end":11617.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11618.890343750001,"end":11634.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11634.70221875,"end":11644.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11643.81471875,"end":11650.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11649.19784375,"end":11665.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11651.745968750001,"end":11652.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11664.790343750003,"end":11673.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11666.562218750001,"end":11667.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11670.899093750002,"end":11671.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11673.39659375,"end":11688.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11689.140968750002,"end":11694.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11695.03034375,"end":11699.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11697.426593750002,"end":11730.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11714.38596875,"end":11715.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11730.56909375,"end":11734.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11734.062218750001,"end":11735.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11735.14221875,"end":11740.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11735.175968750002,"end":11735.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11737.977218750002,"end":11745.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11745.739718750003,"end":11748.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11749.03034375,"end":11753.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11754.227843750003,"end":11791.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11791.403468750003,"end":11826.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11827.02659375,"end":11828.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11828.69721875,"end":11835.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11835.88596875,"end":11841.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11841.40409375,"end":11846.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11846.38221875,"end":11857.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11857.688468750002,"end":11873.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11873.972843750002,"end":11880.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11880.773468750001,"end":11899.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11900.11221875,"end":11905.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11905.86659375,"end":11910.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11910.675968750002,"end":11912.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11910.827843750001,"end":11926.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11927.88846875,"end":11932.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11929.677218750003,"end":11932.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11932.74846875,"end":11937.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11933.305343750002,"end":11934.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11938.18221875,"end":11987.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11987.895968750003,"end":11988.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11988.90846875,"end":12001.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12002.20596875,"end":12010.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12011.16659375,"end":12011.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12012.499718750001,"end":12027.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12028.750343750002,"end":12034.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12035.48346875,"end":12047.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12047.70096875,"end":12052.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12049.86096875,"end":12050.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12052.544093750003,"end":12070.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12071.984093750001,"end":12078.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12079.25721875,"end":12086.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12086.800343750001,"end":12103.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12103.675343750001,"end":12106.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12107.387843750003,"end":12114.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12114.964718750001,"end":12115.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12115.605968750002,"end":12117.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12117.614093750002,"end":12125.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12125.882843750001,"end":12131.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12131.789093750001,"end":12133.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12133.24034375,"end":12142.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12142.285343750002,"end":12151.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12143.500343750002,"end":12143.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12143.95596875,"end":12143.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12151.245968750001,"end":12160.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12151.684718750003,"end":12152.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12160.544093750003,"end":12162.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12162.92346875,"end":12175.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12175.59659375,"end":12177.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12177.43596875,"end":12180.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12179.933468750001,"end":12190.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12187.34159375,"end":12189.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12190.61534375,"end":12190.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12190.68284375,"end":12190.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12191.222843750002,"end":12193.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12193.73721875,"end":12198.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12198.78284375,"end":12200.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12200.453468750002,"end":12215.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12216.24846875,"end":12225.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12226.17096875,"end":12238.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12239.23221875,"end":12247.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12248.15909375,"end":12263.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12258.773468750001,"end":12273.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12267.227843750003,"end":12267.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12267.24471875,"end":12268.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12270.383468750002,"end":12270.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12270.77159375,"end":12270.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12271.952843750001,"end":12271.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12271.98659375,"end":12275.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12274.26471875,"end":12281.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12276.981593750003,"end":12279.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12279.023468750001,"end":12279.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12279.512843750003,"end":12279.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12279.90096875,"end":12280.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12280.761593750001,"end":12287.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12287.17409375,"end":12289.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12289.40159375,"end":12296.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12296.67471875,"end":12297.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12297.78846875,"end":12301.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12301.99034375,"end":12302.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12302.98596875,"end":12309.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12307.407218750002,"end":12308.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12309.347843750002,"end":12315.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12315.60846875,"end":12319.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12320.333468750003,"end":12321.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12321.29534375,"end":12330.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12331.133468750002,"end":12335.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12335.284718750001,"end":12336.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12336.347843750002,"end":12337.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12336.60096875,"end":12353.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12364.27596875,"end":12368.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12369.254093750002,"end":12371.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12377.286593750003,"end":12393.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12394.583468750003,"end":12402.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12403.172843750002,"end":12403.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12404.489093750002,"end":12408.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12408.690968750001,"end":12413.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12413.38221875,"end":12419.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12419.79471875,"end":12428.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12428.92409375,"end":12445.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12446.37284375,"end":12458.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12458.809718750003,"end":12473.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12473.54159375,"end":12474.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12474.63846875,"end":12479.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12480.004718750002,"end":12484.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12484.864718750003,"end":12485.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12485.759093750003,"end":12487.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12488.10471875,"end":12499.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12500.727218750002,"end":12516.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12516.505343750003,"end":12552.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12525.246593750002,"end":12525.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12552.719093750002,"end":12555.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12555.63846875,"end":12595.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12596.47596875,"end":12596.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12596.661593750003,"end":12608.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12608.44034375,"end":12614.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12614.75159375,"end":12615.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12616.43909375,"end":12624.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12624.35346875,"end":12663.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12665.629718750002,"end":12666.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12666.844718750002,"end":12667.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12671.72159375,"end":12685.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12672.649718750003,"end":12672.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12679.66971875,"end":12680.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12680.024093750002,"end":12680.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12686.284718750001,"end":12692.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12693.08534375,"end":12696.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12696.899093750002,"end":12700.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12702.164093750001,"end":12705.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12706.19721875,"end":12722.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12723.156593750002,"end":12726.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12726.649718750003,"end":12758.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12758.121593750002,"end":12762.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12758.20596875,"end":12758.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12762.644093750001,"end":12766.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12766.812218750001,"end":12771.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12771.58784375,"end":12773.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12773.460968750001,"end":12778.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12779.164718750002,"end":12802.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12802.890968750002,"end":12806.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12806.519093750001,"end":12807.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12807.76784375,"end":12815.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12816.10409375,"end":12824.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12825.06471875,"end":12840.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12840.57284375,"end":12868.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12869.142218750003,"end":12874.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12874.727843750003,"end":12874.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12874.74471875,"end":12875.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12875.031593750002,"end":12875.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12875.875343750002,"end":12876.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12876.58409375,"end":12890.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12886.742843750002,"end":12886.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12890.45534375,"end":12904.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12895.68659375,"end":12896.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12896.05784375,"end":12896.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12896.15909375,"end":12896.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12905.136593750001,"end":12908.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12908.477843750003,"end":12947.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12947.695343750001,"end":12949.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12949.956593750001,"end":12951.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12952.437218750001,"end":12973.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12973.817843750003,"end":12975.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12975.488468750002,"end":12980.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12980.31471875,"end":12980.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12980.618468750003,"end":12984.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12986.11971875,"end":12986.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12986.54159375,"end":12987.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12988.92096875,"end":12991.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13000.109093750001,"end":13002.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13002.539093750001,"end":13006.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13007.129093750002,"end":13008.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13011.75284375,"end":13012.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13013.32221875,"end":13014.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13015.44846875,"end":13018.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13018.992218750001,"end":13023.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13023.902843750002,"end":13024.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13024.999718750001,"end":13030.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13030.973468750002,"end":13033.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13034.247218750003,"end":13036.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13037.21721875,"end":13039.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13040.06909375,"end":13044.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13045.28346875,"end":13047.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13048.28721875,"end":13054.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13054.51409375,"end":13064.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13054.750343750002,"end":13055.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13061.26409375,"end":13066.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13067.102843750003,"end":13069.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13069.81971875,"end":13072.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13073.852843750003,"end":13084.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13073.92034375,"end":13076.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13082.83034375,"end":13084.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13085.327843750001,"end":13088.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13089.175343750001,"end":13093.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13093.49534375,"end":13099.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13099.82346875,"end":13106.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13106.320343750001,"end":13110.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13107.72096875,"end":13108.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13111.26471875,"end":13113.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13114.42034375,"end":13117.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13117.64346875,"end":13123.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13123.06034375,"end":13124.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13124.579093750002,"end":13128.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13126.40159375,"end":13135.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13135.598468750002,"end":13154.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13155.07221875,"end":13155.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13156.371593750002,"end":13166.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13166.344718750002,"end":13171.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13172.132843750001,"end":13174.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13175.22096875,"end":13177.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13177.583468750003,"end":13178.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13179.405968750001,"end":13180.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13180.80659375,"end":13189.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13186.949093750001,"end":13187.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13189.379093750002,"end":13189.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13189.767218750003,"end":13192.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13192.720343750003,"end":13197.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13197.614093750002,"end":13201.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13202.052218750003,"end":13202.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13203.95909375,"end":13205.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13206.405968750001,"end":13212.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13212.683468750001,"end":13214.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13215.737843750001,"end":13219.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13220.51346875,"end":13221.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13221.57659375,"end":13221.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13221.593468750001,"end":13222.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13222.015343750001,"end":13226.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13222.251593750003,"end":13222.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13226.672843750002,"end":13229.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13229.28846875,"end":13229.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13229.828468750002,"end":13229.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13230.267218750003,"end":13242.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13239.83534375,"end":13242.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13242.501593750003,"end":13242.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13242.552218750003,"end":13242.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13242.737843750001,"end":13242.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13242.77159375,"end":13242.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13242.855968750002,"end":13242.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13242.87284375,"end":13247.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13248.30659375,"end":13252.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13252.829093750002,"end":13253.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13253.38596875,"end":13255.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13256.44034375,"end":13260.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13260.726593750001,"end":13262.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13263.409718750001,"end":13265.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13265.856593750003,"end":13266.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13266.632843750001,"end":13272.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13273.230968750002,"end":13274.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13275.05346875,"end":13278.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13278.934718750003,"end":13280.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13281.870968750001,"end":13284.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13284.840968750003,"end":13289.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13290.409718750001,"end":13296.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13296.56909375,"end":13303.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13303.31909375,"end":13306.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13306.96409375,"end":13322.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13321.375343750002,"end":13326.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13323.265343750001,"end":13323.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13326.910343750002,"end":13332.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13332.10784375,"end":13332.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13332.614093750002,"end":13336.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13336.79909375,"end":13338.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13337.575343750003,"end":13338.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13338.97596875,"end":13342.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13342.536593750003,"end":13359.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13359.10784375,"end":13359.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13359.74909375,"end":13359.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13359.782843750003,"end":13359.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13359.79971875,"end":13359.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13359.934718750003,"end":13360.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13360.035968750002,"end":13361.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13361.36909375,"end":13361.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13361.402843750002,"end":13364.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13364.676593750002,"end":13367.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13368.000968750002,"end":13368.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13369.13159375,"end":13371.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13372.590968750003,"end":13373.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13374.126593750003,"end":13377.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13377.87284375,"end":13380.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13380.859718750002,"end":13386.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13386.715343750002,"end":13387.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13388.26784375,"end":13394.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13395.051593750002,"end":13395.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13395.11909375,"end":13399.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13398.747218750003,"end":13400.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13399.50659375,"end":13400.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13400.215343750002,"end":13402.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13401.61596875,"end":13408.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13408.804718750001,"end":13411.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13411.403468750003,"end":13412.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13412.73659375,"end":13412.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13413.37784375,"end":13414.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13414.980968750002,"end":13425.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13427.45159375,"end":13429.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13430.067218750002,"end":13431.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13432.328468750002,"end":13435.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13435.83846875,"end":13442.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13442.976593750001,"end":13445.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13446.351593750001,"end":13447.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13448.29221875,"end":13474.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13456.915343750003,"end":13457.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13462.011593750001,"end":13462.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13462.770968750003,"end":13462.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13474.296593750001,"end":13477.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13478.17784375,"end":13480.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13480.270343750002,"end":13480.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13480.70909375,"end":13484.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13481.72159375,"end":13482.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13484.03346875,"end":13485.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13485.34971875,"end":13487.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13488.25221875,"end":13488.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13489.956593750001,"end":13494.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13495.05284375,"end":13498.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13498.74846875,"end":13500.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13502.562218750001,"end":13503.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13503.76034375,"end":13506.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13507.40534375,"end":13511.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13512.130343750003,"end":13513.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13513.902218750001,"end":13517.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13518.509093750003,"end":13521.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13522.12034375,"end":13525.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13526.01846875,"end":13529.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13529.17409375,"end":13534.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13535.333468750003,"end":13536.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13536.582218750002,"end":13539.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13539.974093750003,"end":13544.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13544.226593750001,"end":13547.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13548.05721875,"end":13556.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13556.59596875,"end":13557.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13557.304718750001,"end":13558.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13558.890968750002,"end":13562.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13563.750968750002,"end":13582.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13583.66346875,"end":13584.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13585.047218750002,"end":13587.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13588.590968750003,"end":13589.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13590.126593750003,"end":13592.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13592.759093750003,"end":13596.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13597.079093750002,"end":13605.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13605.415343750003,"end":13605.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13605.465968750003,"end":13609.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13609.70159375,"end":13619.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13620.079718750003,"end":13653.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13620.231593750003,"end":13620.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13648.61534375,"end":13649.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13650.15096875,"end":13654.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13654.504718750002,"end":13657.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13657.96409375,"end":13660.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13660.12409375,"end":13660.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13660.934093750002,"end":13660.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13660.95096875,"end":13660.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13661.27159375,"end":13663.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13662.081593750001,"end":13662.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13662.722843750002,"end":13666.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13664.309093750002,"end":13676.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13666.45221875,"end":13667.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13678.19721875,"end":13681.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13696.472843750002,"end":13698.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13699.122218750003,"end":13701.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13706.00721875,"end":13708.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13709.095343750003,"end":13715.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13716.570968750002,"end":13721.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13722.86534375,"end":13730.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13731.117218750001,"end":13738.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13739.402843750002,"end":13745.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13745.798468750003,"end":13747.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13748.34659375,"end":13749.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13749.88221875,"end":13751.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13752.09284375,"end":13754.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13755.062843750002,"end":13760.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13761.137843750003,"end":13766.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13768.22534375,"end":13769.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13770.95909375,"end":13772.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13773.405968750001,"end":13775.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13775.987843750001,"end":13777.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13778.114093750002,"end":13783.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13783.750343750002,"end":13784.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13784.745968750001,"end":13785.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13786.66971875,"end":13788.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13788.89721875,"end":13792.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13792.54221875,"end":13796.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13797.402218750001,"end":13798.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13801.215968750003,"end":13804.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13804.60784375,"end":13805.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13808.708468750003,"end":13812.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13813.281593750002,"end":13818.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13820.875343750002,"end":13821.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13822.05659375,"end":13822.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13823.575343750003,"end":13824.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13825.85346875,"end":13833.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13829.751593750003,"end":13831.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13833.34596875,"end":13833.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13833.362843750001,"end":13836.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13837.227218750002,"end":13838.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13839.758468750002,"end":13841.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13842.137843750003,"end":13844.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13845.42846875,"end":13846.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13848.68534375,"end":13850.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13852.44846875,"end":13854.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13856.12721875,"end":13856.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13859.02971875,"end":13862.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13864.024718750003,"end":13867.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13872.546593750001,"end":13873.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13874.79096875,"end":13875.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13876.579718750003,"end":13880.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13880.27534375,"end":13882.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13883.987843750001,"end":13885.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13887.34596875,"end":13890.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13891.66596875,"end":13892.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13893.79221875,"end":13895.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13896.67784375,"end":13897.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13897.875968750002,"end":13899.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13899.563468750002,"end":13900.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13902.027218750001,"end":13902.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13904.37284375,"end":13915.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13913.62034375,"end":13918.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13918.767218750003,"end":13920.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13921.028468750003,"end":13921.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13922.73284375,"end":13932.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13932.773468750001,"end":13932.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13932.97596875,"end":13933.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13933.245968750001,"end":13933.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13933.65096875,"end":13934.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13934.039093750001,"end":13935.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13937.39721875,"end":13939.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13940.65409375,"end":13946.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13946.72909375,"end":13947.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13947.84284375,"end":13949.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13950.05346875,"end":13951.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13952.331593750001,"end":13956.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13957.27596875,"end":13961.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13961.190968750001,"end":13961.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13963.047218750002,"end":13963.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13964.312843750002,"end":13966.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13967.789093750001,"end":13970.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13970.94471875,"end":13972.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13973.121593750002,"end":13975.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13976.243468750003,"end":13976.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13979.095343750003,"end":13981.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13981.57596875,"end":13982.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13983.65159375,"end":13991.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13991.12721875,"end":13995.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13995.39659375,"end":13996.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13997.472218750001,"end":13997.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13997.489093750002,"end":14002.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14001.809093750002,"end":14006.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14002.922843750002,"end":14003.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14006.770343750002,"end":14006.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14006.85471875,"end":14013.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14011.86659375,"end":14017.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14018.262218750002,"end":14019.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14019.96659375,"end":14020.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14022.19409375,"end":14023.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14024.13471875,"end":14024.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14024.15159375,"end":14026.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14026.61534375,"end":14027.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14027.77971875,"end":14028.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14029.09596875,"end":14030.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14030.47971875,"end":14032.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14032.656593750002,"end":14036.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14036.723468750002,"end":14051.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14051.640968750002,"end":14056.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14056.551593750002,"end":14064.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14058.89721875,"end":14060.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14062.980968750002,"end":14067.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14067.992843750002,"end":14068.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14068.583468750003,"end":14075.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14075.738468750002,"end":14080.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14080.51409375,"end":14089.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14089.457843750002,"end":14090.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14089.54221875,"end":14104.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14097.422843750002,"end":14099.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14102.55284375,"end":14103.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14103.953468750002,"end":14109.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14109.77534375,"end":14114.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14114.280968750001,"end":14127.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14127.29159375,"end":14130.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14129.82284375,"end":14133.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14132.759093750003,"end":14144.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14144.976593750001,"end":14149.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14149.937843750002,"end":14149.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14149.954718750003,"end":14152.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14153.329718750003,"end":14154.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14154.81471875,"end":14155.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14156.14784375,"end":14157.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14158.40909375,"end":14162.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14163.758468750002,"end":14177.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14176.195343750001,"end":14178.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14179.570343750001,"end":14184.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14185.08846875,"end":14185.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14186.40471875,"end":14188.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14188.530968750001,"end":14189.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14191.500968750002,"end":14197.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14198.234093750001,"end":14198.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14198.976593750001,"end":14199.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14199.972218750001,"end":14200.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14200.259093750003,"end":14201.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14201.507843750001,"end":14204.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14204.899718750003,"end":14206.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14206.199093750001,"end":14207.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14207.34659375,"end":14207.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14207.380343750003,"end":14207.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14207.785343750002,"end":14208.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14209.118468750003,"end":14213.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14213.691593750002,"end":14214.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14214.974093750003,"end":14224.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14216.47596875,"end":14217.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14226.38159375,"end":14226.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14228.625968750002,"end":14230.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14231.798468750003,"end":14233.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14234.093468750001,"end":14237.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14237.45159375,"end":14241.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14241.99096875,"end":14244.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14244.437843750002,"end":14247.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14247.10409375,"end":14250.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14250.867218750001,"end":14259.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14260.671593750001,"end":14261.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14261.44784375,"end":14264.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14263.55721875,"end":14267.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14268.012218750002,"end":14268.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14268.04596875,"end":14268.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14268.180968750003,"end":14268.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14268.231593750003,"end":14268.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14268.24846875,"end":14269.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14271.84284375,"end":14282.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14282.524718750003,"end":14282.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14282.929718750001,"end":14282.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14283.53721875,"end":14285.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14285.984093750001,"end":14286.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14286.996593750002,"end":14288.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14288.684093750002,"end":14293.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14293.847843750002,"end":14301.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14301.610343750002,"end":14302.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14301.762218750002,"end":14304.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14303.027843750002,"end":14308.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14308.394093750001,"end":14310.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14311.92096875,"end":14312.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14313.405968750001,"end":14389.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14397.477218750002,"end":14420.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14420.207843750002,"end":14423.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14425.472843750002,"end":14426.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14430.87284375,"end":14431.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14431.345343750003,"end":14434.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14434.484093750001,"end":14446.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14446.887218750002,"end":14454.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14455.03784375,"end":14459.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14459.72909375,"end":14460.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14461.14659375,"end":14469.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14467.440968750001,"end":14471.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14469.837218750003,"end":14471.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14471.11971875,"end":14471.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14471.38971875,"end":14476.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14476.55346875,"end":14499.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14499.874718750001,"end":14507.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14504.363468750002,"end":14505.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14506.75971875,"end":14521.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14521.49159375,"end":14529.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14530.199093750001,"end":14540.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14541.52221875,"end":14548.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14547.31034375,"end":14549.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14549.11596875,"end":14557.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14555.190968750001,"end":14563.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14563.51034375,"end":14565.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14566.09221875,"end":14593.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14593.851593750001,"end":14594.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14595.134093750003,"end":14597.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14597.63159375,"end":14603.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14603.942843750003,"end":14609.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14609.24159375,"end":14612.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14613.34221875,"end":14616.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14616.649718750003,"end":14621.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14622.015968750002,"end":14628.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14629.086593750002,"end":14632.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14632.52909375,"end":14636.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14636.32596875,"end":14638.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14638.890968750002,"end":14645.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14640.96659375,"end":14648.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14648.40846875,"end":14649.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14650.41659375,"end":14651.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14654.500343750002,"end":14654.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14654.550968750002,"end":14654.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14654.58471875,"end":14654.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14654.58471875,"end":14654.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14654.702843750001,"end":14655.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14655.175343750001,"end":14658.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14655.192218750002,"end":14655.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14655.495968750001,"end":14655.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14659.562843750002,"end":14679.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14679.15471875,"end":14682.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14682.968468750001,"end":14685.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14686.32659375,"end":14691.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14691.65909375,"end":14698.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14698.594718750002,"end":14704.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14704.956593750001,"end":14715.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14715.570968750002,"end":14719.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14719.317218750002,"end":14728.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14729.003468750001,"end":14741.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14741.27159375,"end":14752.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14752.98284375,"end":14775.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14776.118468750003,"end":14802.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14801.633468750002,"end":14803.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14803.962218750003,"end":14829.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14822.74409375,"end":14822.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14822.96346875,"end":14823.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14823.030968750001,"end":14823.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14823.97596875,"end":14824.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14824.02659375,"end":14825.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14827.08096875,"end":14835.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14836.058468750001,"end":14840.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14839.281593750002,"end":14842.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14841.644093750001,"end":14846.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14847.65159375,"end":14849.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14849.625968750002,"end":14870.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14851.97159375,"end":14853.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14853.92909375,"end":14855.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14856.409718750001,"end":14856.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14871.192218750002,"end":14883.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14883.61221875,"end":14884.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14883.91596875,"end":14894.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14885.114093750002,"end":14886.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14886.46409375,"end":14887.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14895.239093750002,"end":14901.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14901.145343750002,"end":14901.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14901.195968750002,"end":14906.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14906.76471875,"end":14907.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14908.50284375,"end":14911.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14911.911593750003,"end":14912.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14913.41346875,"end":14913.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14914.88159375,"end":14918.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14914.915343750003,"end":14915.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14919.167843750001,"end":14920.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14920.534718750001,"end":14924.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14921.85096875,"end":14923.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14924.989718750003,"end":14925.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14927.11596875,"end":14928.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14928.449093750001,"end":14931.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14932.212218750003,"end":14939.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14936.12721875,"end":14945.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14944.51409375,"end":14950.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14951.36534375,"end":14963.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14963.19471875,"end":14966.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14964.122843750003,"end":14977.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14976.492218750001,"end":14989.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14990.34659375,"end":15007.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15007.94721875,"end":15009.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15009.449093750001,"end":15017.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15009.617843750002,"end":15012.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15016.18221875,"end":15017.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15018.03846875,"end":15019.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15019.523468750001,"end":15020.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15019.540343750003,"end":15019.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15020.02971875,"end":15020.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15020.856593750003,"end":15020.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15020.856593750003,"end":15022.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15020.97471875,"end":15023.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15022.004093750002,"end":15022.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15022.898468750001,"end":15024.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15024.923468750003,"end":15029.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15027.57284375,"end":15027.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15027.589718750001,"end":15028.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15028.433468750001,"end":15029.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15029.36159375,"end":15039.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15039.689093750003,"end":15050.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15050.910968750002,"end":15053.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15053.374718750001,"end":15057.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15057.981593750003,"end":15066.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15066.90846875,"end":15067.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15070.08096875,"end":15093.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15094.667843750001,"end":15105.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15106.598468750002,"end":15111.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15112.21784375,"end":15117.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15126.39284375,"end":15129.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15129.683468750001,"end":15130.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15137.05784375,"end":15137.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15137.15909375,"end":15169.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15138.99846875,"end":15139.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15170.031593750002,"end":15172.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15172.208468750003,"end":15186.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15186.72096875,"end":15187.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15187.227218750002,"end":15195.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15195.934718750003,"end":15213.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15213.09659375,"end":15213.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15213.14721875,"end":15213.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15213.180968750003,"end":15213.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15213.214718750001,"end":15242.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15213.231593750003,"end":15213.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15225.972218750001,"end":15227.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15242.03721875,"end":15242.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15242.745968750001,"end":15289.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15289.77659375,"end":15312.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15312.81096875,"end":15319.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15319.577843750001,"end":15320.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15321.130343750003,"end":15330.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15323.762843750003,"end":15324.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15325.129718750002,"end":15325.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15329.078468750002,"end":15335.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15336.469718750002,"end":15350.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15350.914718750002,"end":15350.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15350.94846875,"end":15352.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15350.99909375,"end":15351.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15351.285968750002,"end":15355.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15355.487843750001,"end":15386.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15366.726593750001,"end":15366.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15366.794093750003,"end":15366.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15386.16659375,"end":15405.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15406.028468750003,"end":15416.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15412.06971875,"end":15412.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15415.765343750001,"end":15415.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15415.782218750002,"end":15416.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15417.047843750002,"end":15423.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15418.60034375,"end":15418.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15423.24096875,"end":15425.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15426.497843750003,"end":15428.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15428.337218750003,"end":15429.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15432.30284375,"end":15438.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15432.336593750002,"end":15432.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15432.606593750003,"end":15432.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15439.37346875,"end":15444.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15444.891593750002,"end":15462.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15459.488468750002,"end":15460.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15462.863468750002,"end":15472.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15472.785968750002,"end":15473.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15473.140343750001,"end":15475.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15475.789718750002,"end":15498.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15498.97596875,"end":15503.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15503.835968750001,"end":15505.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15505.540343750003,"end":15505.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15506.29971875,"end":15508.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15508.71284375,"end":15538.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15538.902218750001,"end":15555.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15555.86159375,"end":15556.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15556.114718750003,"end":15558.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15558.679718750001,"end":15573.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15574.06971875,"end":15592.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15592.63221875,"end":15592.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15592.699718750002,"end":15592.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15592.851593750001,"end":15592.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15592.88534375,"end":15596.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15596.024093750002,"end":15597.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15596.614718750003,"end":15617.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15617.25284375,"end":15622.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15619.66596875,"end":15620.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15621.876593750003,"end":15626.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15624.79596875,"end":15624.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15626.38221875,"end":15627.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15627.664718750002,"end":15630.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15641.434718750003,"end":15643.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15643.324718750002,"end":15644.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15647.965343750002,"end":15648.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15649.14659375,"end":15649.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15649.16346875,"end":15650.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15651.407843750003,"end":15658.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15658.613468750002,"end":15672.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15672.77159375,"end":15695.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15695.97471875,"end":15698.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15699.24846875,"end":15700.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15700.480343750001,"end":15724.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15724.67909375,"end":15740.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15741.250343750002,"end":15745.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15745.857218750003,"end":15756.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15757.450343750003,"end":15757.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15757.68659375,"end":15757.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15757.73721875,"end":15757.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15758.091593750003,"end":15760.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15761.517218750003,"end":15764.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15765.17909375,"end":15799.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15772.840343750002,"end":15776.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15776.164718750002,"end":15776.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15776.24909375,"end":15776.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15799.992218750001,"end":15800.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15800.329718750003,"end":15800.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15801.122843750003,"end":15801.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15801.13971875,"end":15802.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15803.02971875,"end":15814.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15814.99409375,"end":15817.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15818.250968750002,"end":15818.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15819.465968750003,"end":15821.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15822.047843750002,"end":15825.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15825.91221875,"end":15828.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15829.270343750002,"end":15830.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15830.755343750003,"end":15830.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15830.856593750003,"end":15846.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15844.035968750002,"end":15852.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15852.642218750003,"end":15863.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15865.41659375,"end":15875.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15875.153468750003,"end":15885.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15886.746593750002,"end":15890.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15891.77534375,"end":15905.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15906.524093750002,"end":15915.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15912.261593750001,"end":15925.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15925.96409375,"end":15926.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15926.01471875,"end":15941.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15941.13471875,"end":15941.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15942.04596875,"end":15975.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15944.67846875,"end":15947.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15947.969093750002,"end":15948.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15969.265343750001,"end":15969.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15969.315968750001,"end":15969.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15974.648468750001,"end":16003.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15980.43659375,"end":15985.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15986.86596875,"end":15989.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15989.633468750002,"end":15990.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16004.63534375,"end":16012.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16012.12784375,"end":16018.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16012.87034375,"end":16015.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16016.160968750002,"end":16017.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16018.962218750003,"end":16019.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16019.02971875,"end":16019.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16019.97471875,"end":16020.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16020.02534375,"end":16043.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16026.42096875,"end":16028.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16036.12409375,"end":16036.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16040.680343750002,"end":16040.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16040.781593750002,"end":16100.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16101.059093750002,"end":16111.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16113.614093750002,"end":16117.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16118.085968750001,"end":16122.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16123.418468750002,"end":16123.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16124.042843750001,"end":16126.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16126.962218750003,"end":16144.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16145.001593750003,"end":16147.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16151.211593750002,"end":16157.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16152.03846875,"end":16153.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16156.341593750003,"end":16167.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16167.175343750001,"end":16170.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16171.292843750001,"end":16180.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16180.844093750002,"end":16183.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16181.232218750003,"end":16183.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16183.71284375,"end":16190.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16184.708468750003,"end":16184.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16184.77596875,"end":16188.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16189.36596875,"end":16198.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16198.394093750001,"end":16199.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16198.42784375,"end":16201.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16199.33909375,"end":16199.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16199.81159375,"end":16199.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16199.845343750003,"end":16202.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16202.039093750001,"end":16202.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16202.207843750002,"end":16216.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16227.942218750002,"end":16231.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16238.25284375,"end":16239.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16240.345343750003,"end":16245.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16245.27284375,"end":16285.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16285.215968750003,"end":16303.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16303.727843750003,"end":16325.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16325.614718750003,"end":16367.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16368.173468750003,"end":16408.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16376.661593750003,"end":16376.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16376.965343750002,"end":16377.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16378.011593750001,"end":16378.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16390.701593750004,"end":16391.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16408.90971875,"end":16466.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16415.271593750003,"end":16415.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16467.22971875,"end":16470.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16470.28409375,"end":16523.288468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16486.73721875,"end":16486.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16523.42346875,"end":16524.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16524.959093750003,"end":16574.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16568.80034375,"end":16569.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16574.80784375,"end":16577.288468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16577.72721875,"end":16587.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16588.30784375,"end":16631.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16632.14909375,"end":16634.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16634.781593749998,"end":16636.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16637.093468749998,"end":16637.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16641.075968750003,"end":16641.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16642.81409375,"end":16671.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16672.46346875,"end":16679.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16679.483468749997,"end":16680.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16680.765968749998,"end":16685.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16681.64346875,"end":16682.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16689.22034375,"end":16696.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16697.742218749998,"end":16700.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16700.779718750004,"end":16700.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16700.880968750003,"end":16701.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16701.724718750003,"end":16703.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16703.80034375,"end":16706.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16704.20534375,"end":16705.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16706.989718750003,"end":16725.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16712.65971875,"end":16713.132218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16713.132218749997,"end":16713.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16713.216593750003,"end":16713.233468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16725.670343750004,"end":16736.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16730.90159375,"end":16731.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16736.04846875,"end":16736.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16737.65159375,"end":16739.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16739.84534375,"end":16750.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16750.62846875,"end":16766.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16766.76096875,"end":16805.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16804.42596875,"end":16819.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16817.79096875,"end":16828.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16828.21971875,"end":16837.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16837.889093750004,"end":16843.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16844.099093750003,"end":16852.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16846.664093749998,"end":16848.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16852.30034375,"end":16856.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16853.380343750003,"end":16855.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16855.47284375,"end":16855.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16856.50221875,"end":16857.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16861.109093749998,"end":16861.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16865.209718750004,"end":16916.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16917.201593750004,"end":16920.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16920.390968749998,"end":16929.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16945.33221875,"end":16948.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16953.43221875,"end":16954.124093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16956.756593750004,"end":16957.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16957.75221875,"end":16960.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16962.20721875,"end":16962.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16962.983468749997,"end":16963.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16965.194093750004,"end":16967.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16966.223468750002,"end":16966.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16967.590343750002,"end":16967.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16967.86034375,"end":16977.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16969.007843749998,"end":16969.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16969.04159375,"end":16969.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16969.96971875,"end":16970.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16970.121593750002,"end":16970.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16977.05721875,"end":16977.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16977.090968750003,"end":16977.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16977.107843750004,"end":16978.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16977.529718750004,"end":16979.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16978.035968750002,"end":16978.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16979.08221875,"end":16979.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16979.976593749998,"end":16980.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16980.600968749997,"end":16980.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16980.61784375,"end":16982.94659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1727.06,"end":1729.285,"text":"報告文會出席委員8人已足法定人數"},{"start":1734.226,"end":1757.205,"text":"我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會期外交及國防委員會第二十一次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年十二月十五日星期一上午九十一分至十二時五十九分地點紅龍山林一會議室出席委員陳永康等十人列席委員吳宗憲等十二人"},{"start":1758.085,"end":1773.67,"text":"請駕委員黃仁列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員經濟部政務次長江文若行政院公共工程委員會主任秘書羅天介法務部廉政署副署長林昭雄主席馬昭吉委員文君"},{"start":1774.27,"end":1794.245,"text":"報告事項一宣讀上次會議思路決定確定二邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告針對國軍各類型火藥原物料購案廠商資格標準訂定及審認作法並請經濟部行政院公共工程委員會法務部廉政署列席並被質詢國防部部長顧立雄國防採購室主任"},{"start":1795.536,"end":1807.225,"text":"趙雅萍報告委員沈博洋等16人質詢軍有國防部部長郭立雄政務辦公室主任孫立芳軍備局局長林文祥陸軍司令部參謀長陳建應海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長李慶然"},{"start":1811.068,"end":1835.763,"text":"國家中山科學研究院院長李士強及經濟部政務次長姜文若等及其答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員黃仁蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部以二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢"},{"start":1840.361,"end":1864.397,"text":"請醫事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥國防部部長顧立雄報告台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應備整備情形並備質詢宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員"},{"start":1867.117,"end":1881.1,"text":"國家安全局 蔡明彥 蔡局長國防部 顧立雄 顧部長副參謀總長 黃志偉 黃執行官常務次長 黃宥民 黃長賜全民防衛動員署 廖建新 廖署長"},{"start":1895.389,"end":1915.305,"text":"總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文龍石參事政務辦公室主任孫立芳孫主任政治作戰局史順文史局長軍備局林文祥林局長主計局謝祺賢謝局長"},{"start":1922.81,"end":1925.291,"text":"軍醫局陳元浩陳副局長戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長資源規劃司藍靜婷藍司長法律事務司吳義聖吳司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購事趙雅萍趙主任"},{"start":1950.652,"end":1959.055,"text":"人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作跡是連志威連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝鈞山謝次長"},{"start":1981.463,"end":2009.355,"text":"訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義陳參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮邱參謀長空軍司令部李慶然李參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉薛參謀長憲兵指揮部文念忠文參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長"},{"start":2012.458,"end":2015.719,"text":"資通電軍指揮部 周文祥 周參謀長軍情局 李永康 李執行長電訊發展室 林振維 林執行長國防大學教育長 李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院 李士強 李院長"},{"start":2043.308,"end":2043.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2072.918,"end":2096.028,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局來列席今天的專題報告以下僅就近期台海以及周邊區域安全情勢的變化以及對我國的影響跟各位委員先進報告如此第一部分是有關於台海跟周邊情勢的特點在這部分我們大概提出有四點的分析第一個分析是中共軍事侵擾破壞了台海的現狀"},{"start":2097.048,"end":2116.395,"text":"那從今年年初到目前12月15號為止那中共各型的軍機侵入到我們周邊的空域總共有3570架次創下歷年的新高那另外呢也協同到共軍的艦船執行了有39次的聯合戰備警巡主要的目的在於測試我國的預警跟應對模式並且來檢驗台海戰場的經營"},{"start":2119.096,"end":2133.295,"text":"此外共軍的海警船在每個月都是以4次的頻次來侵入到金門的限制水域進行所謂的編隊巡航那在今年的2月起更不定期的入侵到我們的東沙限制的水域"},{"start":2134.116,"end":2150.116,"text":"我們也注意到在今年的12月6號中共有三艘的公務船宣稱在台海的中線以西的水域進行巡查以及所謂的執法搜救的演練那中共也對外謬稱說這一次的演練是範圍有特別涵蓋到台灣潭"},{"start":2150.817,"end":2164.91,"text":"那經過我們的比對也用一個圖示來跟各位委員做說明跟報告的是那他的一個巡航的一個航線並沒有進入到台灣潭那顯見中共刻意的來混淆海域的位置藉以來炒作中共對台的管轄權"},{"start":2166.567,"end":2182.069,"text":"那在這邊本局進行的第二個判斷是有關於共軍海空的挑釁升高了美日的警戒在今年的五六月份我們看到共軍首度的在西太平洋進行了雙航艦的航訓那期間山東艦的艦載機一度的危險逼近到日本的P3C反潛機"},{"start":2183.21,"end":2198.3,"text":"另外在12月6號遼寧艦的艦載機也在沖繩的東南方的空域兩度的用雷達來鎖定了日本的戰機那隨後中共跟俄國進行了空中聯合的巡航那期間也侵入到南韓跟日本的防空識別區"},{"start":2199.181,"end":2219.218,"text":"那美國為了要反制中俄的軍事擴張特別在12月10號派出B-52戰略轟炸機協同到日本的F-35跟F-15的戰鬥機在日本海來行駛相關的聯合的一個巡航那華盛頓號的航空母艦的編隊也跟日本的秋月號護衛艦在日本東部海域來進行聯訓"},{"start":2221.159,"end":2239.134,"text":"緊接著在12月12號我們看到美國跟日本的防長也進行了電話的會談譴責中共區域迫害了區域的和平穩定所以從以上的發展我們可以看到美國跟日本在同盟架構之下緊密的來進行相關的溝通也快速的展現應對中俄威脅相關的嚇阻能力"},{"start":2240.712,"end":2262.967,"text":"第三個判斷是有關於中共揮帶的擴張引發了南海的緊張那在今年的十月份中共的海警船分別在中葉島鐵線礁的海域用水砲來攻擊菲律賓的公務船那緊接著也在柏礁的海域跟越南發生了海上的對峙十月份的時候中共的軍艦海警船在民主礁海域來實施所謂的戰備警巡驅趕飛國的公務船舶"},{"start":2265.188,"end":2280.162,"text":"那12月的時候又看到了中共在主壁礁對飛國的巡邏機發射所謂的照明彈那在前幾天也特別在所謂的先兵礁附近的海域對菲律賓有24艘的漁船來進行所謂的水爆的攻擊釀成了相關漁民還有漁船的傷亡"},{"start":2281.303,"end":2308.815,"text":"那我們看到美日韓等國家已經先後的跟南海的國家來提供軍用跟警用的艦船協助南海國家建立所謂的MDA也就是所謂海域感知的一個能力那在今年的10月13到14日菲律賓跟美國、加拿大、日本、澳洲、法國等7個國家在南海舉行所謂的SAMA-SAMA-2025其性協力海上聯演來測試各國的戰術操演以及海戰的能力"},{"start":2309.455,"end":2334.82,"text":"另外在12月份美國也跟東協舉行了第二次的海上聯演提升各國海上危機的應處能力本局做的第四個一個觀察和判斷是美盟正在強化第一島鏈的共同防禦的態勢美國的盟友包括加拿大、英國、法國、德國、澳大利亞、紐西蘭已經分別跟日本還有菲律賓簽署了防務合作的協定擴大聯演聯訓提升島鏈的共同嚇阻能力"},{"start":2335.64,"end":2352.116,"text":"那我們也注意到美軍藉由跟日本還有菲律賓的聯演將提風的中程導彈機動的部署到日本的山口縣菲律賓的三苗里市省並且將MASIS的反艦導彈潛推到日本的沖繩 宮古 石垣以及菲律賓的八潭島那日本本身也規劃在"},{"start":2353.297,"end":2378.5,"text":"境內的九州還有北海道的部分來部署島嶼防衛滑翔彈飛國也計畫在呂宋島的西部還有巴拉旺島來部署印度產製的布拉莫斯反艦導彈所以我們看到美盟在第一島鏈的反艦導彈打擊網絡已經成型相關的部署也大幅提升美盟對於第一島鏈重要海域封控的一個能力相關的一個部署狀況請各位委員先進看到部署圖"},{"start":2379.861,"end":2403.228,"text":"好第二部分跟委員說明的是相關的發展所產生的一個影響以及本局的一個評估那這部分我們大概做出兩點的觀察那第二個觀察是印太區域的安全我們發現是高度的連動的那中共透過海空武力強勢的擴權不僅威脅到周邊國家的安全利益也導致了東海台海南海安全情勢緊密的串聯"},{"start":2404.571,"end":2423.385,"text":"美國在最新公布的國家安全戰略當中也把印太地區定位成為是全球競爭的優先戰區並且提出了三項非常重要的原則包括第一 維持關鍵航道的開發第二 強化美國印太潛進部署第三 區域我們應該要來共同分擔相關的防務責任"},{"start":2424.426,"end":2438.894,"text":"那美軍的印太司令部的司令帕帕羅上將也特別強調美國提出這樣子的巨子型的防禦構想第一個重點要務就聚焦在第一島鏈那凸顯美國推出友盟協同來提升防衛能量遏制中共的擴張威脅"},{"start":2440.865,"end":2464.576,"text":"第二台海的核穩受到國際社會的高度關注那我們統計分析發現從今年以來已經有美國日本英國德國法國澳大利亞義大利等19個國家以及北約歐盟G7等多邊的機制多次的公開強調台海和平穩定的重要性也支持維護台海和平穩定的現狀那相關的國家的一個立場以及"},{"start":2465.797,"end":2494.226,"text":"他們表述支持台灣的方式也請各位委員先進參考到副表的地方那針對中共對台的脅迫歐盟德國也分別在今年的八月跟十月份首度的來對外表示台海適用到聯合國憲章禁止使用武力的原則那同時也呼籲中共應該要共同來維護國際和平所以有鑒於台海情勢跟印太還有國際安全的息息相關我們注意到國際友盟挺台的力度正不斷的在攀升當中好最後一部分是有關於捷運"},{"start":2494.966,"end":2522.314,"text":"那台安全攸關到印太以及國際繁榮跟穩定那全球民主友盟也積極的來強化在印太地區的經濟還有安全的部署那透過各種的外交的宣示跟聯合的行動來協助建構第一島鏈的防禦體系共同來反制中共的軍事擴張那本局會機先的來掌握相關中共的軍事動態以及印太地區安全情勢的變化緊密跟我們的國際友盟來進行必要的戰略溝通跟情報交流"},{"start":2522.754,"end":2532.221,"text":"以便來相助政府的決策還有應變的準備提升我國整體的安全韌性跟良能以上的報告敬請各位委員先進不應執教 謝謝接下來請國防部顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2550.734,"end":2575.528,"text":"主席 各位委員先進今天非常榮幸應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對於台海周邊情勢及國軍戰備整備關切與指導再次表達誠摯的謝意面對區域安全情勢變化中共軍力擴張及持續對我軍事威懾等嚴峻挑戰國軍呢"},{"start":2577.764,"end":2601.55,"text":"積極推動新興科技武器籌貨及各項艦軍備戰工作今天應邀致大院委員會針對台海周邊海空域進行潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析並針對國軍戰備整備應處執行做法進行專報其實各位委員能夠瞭解中共不斷擴張軍事威脅環境下國軍整備現況持續接續呢有"},{"start":2608.186,"end":2623.307,"text":"作戰及計畫參謀次長 聯支會中將實施台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形專案報告請請各位委員先進指導與支持 謝謝"},{"start":2632.23,"end":2641.405,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好我是作息室次長 連志威接續由我就台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變 整備情形來進行專案報告"},{"start":2646.721,"end":2670.173,"text":"首先當前全球地緣政治依舊交織的衝突與威脅隨著美國政府推出國家安全戰略報告2025明確指出不支持單方面改變台海現狀並鼓勵美盟國家支持台灣提升我國的國防實力以及分擔防禦責任令美國防長以及印太司令等高階將領"},{"start":2671.694,"end":2696.413,"text":"紛紛示警 中共意圖顛覆現行的國際秩序積極進行武力侵台的事前準備面對中共的軍事擴張印太地區國家感受最為深刻為應對不穩定的局勢發展各國持續強化多邊軍事協議與防衛能力本部亦嚴密監控中共對台軍事行動的關鍵預警徵喉"},{"start":2698.394,"end":2712.759,"text":"評估當前敵軍動態以及未來可能行動的模式爭取早期的預警 迅速處置 妥善應對抵觸然由訓轉眼 由演轉戰的企圖接續進行區域情勢分析的報告"},{"start":2714.059,"end":2737.01,"text":"中美雙邊的戰略競爭關係北韓擁核的政策以及飛彈的試射以及台海 東海 南海主權爭議與東南亞國家的邊境衝突等摩擦事件使印太區域的緊張與競爭不斷升溫均可能引發區域的衝突整體的態勢處在不穩定的狀態"},{"start":2738.373,"end":2761.004,"text":"美國為應處印太區域的突發狀況適時調整印太的兵力部署並集中軍事資源協助友盟來提升軍事實力同時運用澳英美的安全夥伴協議與美日印澳四方安全對話等多邊主義策略強化友盟的抗中力量"},{"start":2761.994,"end":2778.281,"text":"令中共透過帶入倡議與東協國家推進了區域全面經濟夥伴協定等舉措且深化與俄羅斯北韓等國家的戰略夥伴關係企圖擴大國家戰略利益並主導區域的事務"},{"start":2779.42,"end":2787.895,"text":"此外 中共從未放棄武力併吞台灣持續強化跨軍兵種的訓練從單純的軍事演習轉向常態多兵種的實戰化演練"},{"start":2792.315,"end":2813.461,"text":"有關共軍活動的藥礦以及潛在的衝突熱點分析如此首先在東海的海域共軍在2025年的4月在浙江外海開設了進航區執行多管火箭的實彈射擊演練模擬對我的關鍵基礎設施重要港口等目標進行打擊"},{"start":2814.588,"end":2836.819,"text":"另外常態派遣海警船跟軍艦在釣魚台周邊海域的巡邏在今年5月發生海警的艦載直升機進入了日本領空提高雙方的衝突風險透過軍事演習及灰色地帶襲擾的策略企圖管控東海提高了與日韓等周邊國家衝突的風險"},{"start":2838.342,"end":2853.441,"text":"第二個部分在西太平洋共軍不定期的派遣戰機從事跨島鏈遠海飛訊以及跟監外籍機的活動並發生與日本自衛隊軍機對視的情況提高擦槍走火的風險"},{"start":2854.562,"end":2873.899,"text":"另外每年平均一至兩次與俄羅斯的艦 機從事聯合戰略行航任務以及今年6月 遼寧號 山東號兩航艦編隊首次同時進入西太平洋從事雙航艦訓練 增加赴西太平洋的頻次以及規模"},{"start":2875.66,"end":2900.057,"text":"另外中共的各戰區海軍平均每年從事四至六次跨島鏈的長航訓練今年二月南戰的長航編隊不僅侵入非國的經濟水域並且繞行了澳紐兩國臨接的海域從事實彈射擊藉著訓練的民意的軍事行動前推其海空力量提高了中美潛在衝突的風險"},{"start":2901.431,"end":2921.238,"text":"接著報告的是在南海的海域運用軍艦、海警船以及民兵在民主礁、仁愛暗殺、先兵暗殺等海域對非國的補給船以及海警船從事近距離的攔截、高壓水砲等行動阻止非國從事補給以及逼迫其放棄該據點"},{"start":2922.935,"end":2933.765,"text":"令今年共機向飛國巡邏機發射照明彈的事件以揮帶作戰來壓迫菲律賓不僅嚴重影響飛行安全更製造南海的緊張情勢"},{"start":2935.356,"end":2960.009,"text":"第二個部分是以海上民兵妙博於爭議島礁的附近影響他國的漁業以及海底資源的探勘活動令持續強化其島礁的軍事以及基礎設施的建設其中是包含了跑道 機庫 防空反艦飛彈以及雷達電子戰的設施將對美盟國家 航經南海海域構成長期的威脅"},{"start":2961.17,"end":2989.108,"text":"並藉常態的摩擦事件迫使菲律賓等周邊國家長期處於高強度的應對狀態消耗其軍事資源意圖對南海實質的控制提高潛在衝突的風險第四個部分 則是在台海周邊的海域中共海警船不定期於外離島進至水域從事編隊巡邏並施放空飄氣球或是以無人機對我周邊實施情搜"},{"start":2989.989,"end":3008.529,"text":"另外運用名船以及全輿輪關閉辨識的AIS系統或是切換不同的移動通信識別碼等方式偽冒規避查緝並以拋放苗鏈的拖曳的方式破壞我連外海底的電纜造成我國通訊短暫異常"},{"start":3009.884,"end":3028.195,"text":"旨在擴大灰色地帶的洗腦意圖擾亂政府以及民生的運作並且打擊軍民士氣來逐步加大對台的威脅 恫嚇另外 共軍常態派遣海空兵力逾越中線赴我周邊執行所謂戰備警巡以及聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":3030.92,"end":3043.198,"text":"頻次 數量逐年上升不僅以實際的軍事行動壓迫台灣且結合灰色地帶洗腦的手段加大對台的威懾力度提高台海周邊衝突的風險"},{"start":3045.826,"end":3067.865,"text":"綜合以上 共軍頻繁派遣機艦 公務船在我周邊的海空域從事戰備警巡 無人機的侵擾以及預約禁線至水域等手段對台進行灰色地帶的侵擾以及軍事壓迫亦藉由軍事演訓及派遣航艦編隊赴西太平洋長航"},{"start":3068.886,"end":3083.767,"text":"中共持續軍事擴張對台威懾力度未曾減緩甚至外溢影響區域安全穩定更使台海及區域衝突熱點日益升溫第三個部分報告的是國軍的戰備應變 整備執行的做法"},{"start":3087.576,"end":3104.805,"text":"國軍秉持以備戰達必戰的目標持續強化戰備整備積極應處共軍各種襲擾的行動以及軍事威懾確保我國領土安全與區域穩定面對中共常態化的灰色地帶襲擾國軍的具體作為說明如後"},{"start":3107.466,"end":3133.187,"text":"首先是在聯合勤奸爭的部分整合各勤奸爭的系統運用多重情資手段傳遞情資至國軍聯合作戰指揮中心以建立共同作戰圖像掌握周邊共軍的活動第二個部分是持續與國安會國安局等跨部會綿密的情資共享並運用定期有盟情資交流的機制掌握敵情威脅與戰略關鍵預警的徵喉"},{"start":3135.868,"end":3152.653,"text":"第二個部分是國軍的應處作為首先平時依照敵關鍵預警的徵喉在突發狀況處置規定當中訂定各項敵情威脅的模式襲擾的類型以妥適派遣海空兵力來實施應處以利突發狀況的處置"},{"start":3154.674,"end":3179.323,"text":"第二個部分當中共宣告對台海周邊進行複合式軍事行動時則一令開設國軍應變中心來指導作戰層級完成加強戒備的戰備兵力規劃並視敵情威脅發展的程度提升戰備等級包含二級或一級的加強戒備並執行立即備彈操演以指導三軍部隊執行應變任務預防共軍遊演轉戰的威脅"},{"start":3182.904,"end":3193.44,"text":"第三個部分則是若敵突然發起攻擊則各部隊不帶命令實施分散式管制在去中心化的運作指導下遂行作戰任務"},{"start":3194.707,"end":3218.778,"text":"第三 面對中共日益增強的揮帶侵擾與挑釁國軍規劃在明年實施電腦輔助指揮所演習及立即備戰操演等科目全聯會採階段演習全面驗證的方式逐步依照作戰節奏來確保戰略作戰及戰術層級單位均能手忍部隊指揮戰鬥程序以達平戰轉換的作戰目標以確保任務的達成"},{"start":3224.793,"end":3253.401,"text":"第四 為建立維護台海和平的實力國軍課陣積極強化備戰整備朝向建構不對稱作戰能力強化防衛韌性提升後備戰力以及後值灰色地帶應處能力的四大建軍規劃方向也積極地建置台灣之盾防衛能力不對稱作戰的無人載具徵收反制武力來展現自我防衛的決心以達到嚇阻戰爭發生的目的"},{"start":3254.221,"end":3269.696,"text":"最後感謝大院各位委員的指導面對共軍各項軍事威懾行動國軍持續規劃籌購各式新式的武器裝備因此能夠通過強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例以及後續預算的獲得"},{"start":3273.619,"end":3287.323,"text":"對於台灣建立可視戰力至關重要可指部隊具備高戰備能力的目標進而有效嚇阻共軍犯台的意圖以確保國家安全以上報告 敬請各位委員宣敬支持與指導 謝謝謝謝我們補充介紹徐巧欣委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":3296.786,"end":3323.165,"text":"我們現在先確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":3332.065,"end":3334.149,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅緣豪"},{"start":3343.281,"end":3368.874,"text":"部長早安 部長今天我聽了國安局跟國防部的這兩份專案報告真的是非常明確的說明了共軍在台海周邊還有東海 南海還有在海空的挑釁跟灰色地帶的侵擾所以也造成了印太地區的緊張今天早上本席也看到就是說國防部有發布了一個黑白的照片也就是說在昨天的時候"},{"start":3369.955,"end":3388.295,"text":"今年才服役的福建號第一次經過台灣海峽請問他們這次的這個舉動有什麼異常的地方嗎我們有在監控嗎請問這個部分我想我們有全程的監控我們發布的照片也顯示"},{"start":3389.476,"end":3416.481,"text":"上面並沒有建載機那我們預判他是應該要回到上海的長興島去做他的再就進一步就做相關的一些缺改所以目前的觀察是如此是因為今年才做服務我們在想說他這個舉動到底代表了什麼的什麼意義那這部分到目前為止觀察到的是只是說他只是要回到上海"},{"start":3417.401,"end":3442.492,"text":"就這樣子沒有任何的軍事的舉動就是了目前的觀察沒有目前的觀察沒有面對中共的挑釁也好或者是說在灰色地帶的侵擾面對這種不穩定的局勢其實各國都有一個共識就是必須要來強化自我防衛的能力可是我們先來看看日本好了"},{"start":3447.194,"end":3457.945,"text":"日本政府它現在在推動防衛力準備計畫預計在2026年度的時候這防衛費就要提高到大概是9兆日元大概是新台幣1.8億兆元那是創歷史的新高而且他們會提前兩年實現國防支出佔國內生產毛額2%的目標"},{"start":3465.693,"end":3483.527,"text":"北約的會員國在今年6月也承諾將國防開支比重增加到GDP的5%到2035年的時候GDP的3.5%會用在核心的軍費另外1.5%會用在基礎設施等比較廣泛的安全相關的領域可是我們看看台灣"},{"start":3484.668,"end":3507.561,"text":"那台灣呢由國防部提出並經行政院通過的今年就是分年八年編列的1.25兆的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰略計畫採購的特別條例草案到昨天為止呢已經被在野黨三度的阻擋在程序委員會連一讀的這個機會都沒有"},{"start":3510.603,"end":3537.262,"text":"然後要到委員會裡面做實質審查的機會也不給在野黨口口聲聲說我們必須要透明我們有疑慮可是進入委員會審實質審查充分討論而且審查的時候我們都還有直播這應該是最透明的方式可是非常的遺憾昨天第三度在程序委員會被惡意的阻擋跟杯葛"},{"start":3540.484,"end":3546.13,"text":"在野黨真的是無視中國在過去20年來的共軍增加了將近7倍的這個軍費用來擴充這個軍備可是卻是扯我們自己國家的這個後退那本席的現代程序委員會真的是非常非常的"},{"start":3560.784,"end":3585.763,"text":"這個氣氛 因為他一再的杯葛 一再的風刷真的是 我們可以說是慶祝難輸喔那再來呢 不只這樣子 再也擋出了杯葛我們這個特別條例之外呢而且呢 對外呢 都是他的論述其實都是在帶了一些風向 比如說誇大年度的這預算 他指控說明年的國防度 國防的預算呢將高達2.2兆元可是呢 這1.2兆其實是分8年"},{"start":3589.265,"end":3617.455,"text":"來做編列實際上我們的國防預算其實我們是編列了9495億元可是他卻是要帶風向硬是把這1.2兆列入就是加在這明年的國防預算裡面還有他有質疑就是說特別預算對社福教育的資會造成排擠這部分我可能拜託待會國防部要來解釋一下到底這特別預算對社福對教育會不會造成這個排擠"},{"start":3618.155,"end":3638.562,"text":"那再來還有就是我們就不知道要買什麼啊不知道買什麼那就到委員會來做審查嘛那可以國防部我想可以問讓他們問到報我想請問一下到底我們這個明年度的是我們這8年的這個1.2兆元的這個特別條例編列下去的話真的會對社福跟教育支出造成排擠嗎請問部長"},{"start":3640.132,"end":3660.297,"text":"我想我們的特別預算應該是分八年來編列那這裡面也提到了他的來源就是用這個歷年來稅積剩餘以及這個舉債來支應那另外也要受到這個財政距離法的一個約束所以我想"},{"start":3661.721,"end":3684.677,"text":"不會造成有排擠的一個效果就是完全不會造成排擠嘛那再來我想請教就叫1.25兆其實我們原定是要採購長射程的飛彈無人機機動雷達等不對稱的這個戰略那被這個在野黨一再的這個封殺那我們整個建制期程一定會延大然後造成國家會有一個怎麼樣的影響呢國家安全"},{"start":3685.997,"end":3714.535,"text":"我想我們可以看到美國的這個NSS就是美國的國家安全戰略它裡面最近根據這個美國戰爭部次長Elbridge Colby他所講的他認為就是說這個美國國家安全戰略就是代表美國回歸實力及聚焦盟友的責任為核心的一個國家安全戰略"},{"start":3715.546,"end":3728.671,"text":"那麼對台灣而言美國仍然是台海為核心的利益也就是台海的和平穩定線上是美國的核心利益但他從此強調台灣自身防衛能力成為能否有效嚇阻"},{"start":3730.612,"end":3745.518,"text":"的一個關鍵前提所以我想台灣的自我防衛能力的一個提升來跟各有盟國家包括剛剛委員提到了日本也大幅的提高國防預算大家"},{"start":3747.031,"end":3763.391,"text":"一起齊心建立一個協同嚇阻那麼以實力達成有效嚇阻以嚇阻達成和平我想這個是我們作為這個第一島鏈的前緣所我們應該要承擔的一個責任跟義務"},{"start":3764.958,"end":3792.223,"text":"是 我看其他的這個國家對於自己國家的自我防衛的這個能力說實話大家不管朝野都是一致來贊成那我昨天一而再再二再而三在程序委員會遇到這個我們這些特別條例也好或者是說我們的預算一再的被阻礙一再的被杯葛覺得說這是怎麼一回事為什麼就算是朝野可能有一些意見的"},{"start":3793.663,"end":3820.157,"text":"可是國家自我保衛能力的提升保衛自己的國家這是一個正常的心態我們看到就是說在程序委員會一再的被阻擋真覺得是居心叵測所以就覺得說我今天必須在委員會這邊來提出昨天我們已經連續三個禮拜在程序委員會被阻擋的這個現象也必須讓大家知道到底這些在野黨的委員到底是怎麼了"},{"start":3821.157,"end":3829.662,"text":"保衛自己的國家不是應該的嗎提升自己自我防衛的能力不是就應該的嗎那台灣有自我防衛的能力在這個第一島案來講就像國防部長剛才所講的我們有這個責任我們是其中的一份子我們有這個責任怎麼會一再的阻擋呢進入委員會裡面去做實際審查其實是最透明的一種方式"},{"start":3847.172,"end":3862.963,"text":"連討論都不討論我們多少法案是連討論都不討論不是敬附二讀表決通過不然就完全阻擋在程序委員會擺在程序委員會連審都不讓你有機會審真的是非常糟糕的一件事情再來115年度的總預算到現在為止也是一樣"},{"start":3867.626,"end":3890.587,"text":"好 到現在為止一樣 蔡院長提出這個復議那再來有很多的計畫那很多的採購案訓練也可能會受到這個影響我請部長再說明一下如果是說我們115年度的這種預算延宕的話會造成哪些影響我們要做的很多事情就沒辦法做我想很多的新增計畫應該沒有辦法執行"},{"start":3893.19,"end":3917.832,"text":"這說明一下好嗎我也好我是主席局局長有關於115年如果總預算沒辦法審議的話其中國防部的部分編列了5614億其中我們會受到影響的部分我們初步估算大概是660億其中屬於軍頭新政案的部分就有79個案子86億那其他的是屬於作業維持費跟軍事投資案"},{"start":3919.553,"end":3931.625,"text":"較114年度增加的額度這按照預算法跟主席總署的規範說這部分是要列為管制的就是執行數不可以超過114年度的預算數額這部分大概有570多億加總起來大概超過660億"},{"start":3933.166,"end":3958.024,"text":"那這裡面很大一部分大概有400多億是屬於後勤準備的零附件跟保修以及彈藥的一個籌購還有一部分是屬於裝備的採購大概有150億另外還有一部分是委員所關切的部隊的訓練大概有20幾億的部分是會被作為一個管制的一個額度所以整個預算來講目前我們初步盤估會受影響的程度如上面所報 以上"},{"start":3959.005,"end":3985.653,"text":"所以不管是說好像跟國防有關的這些預算其實都會受到嚴重的影響尤其是對於新興事業的這個部分可能連做都沒有辦法做如果這個預算一再的不整合的話會變成這樣子嗎真的在這裡要再次呼籲我們真的是在野黨我們國家台灣就只有一個保護自己的國家是我們所有人的責任在這裡真的是再次呼籲大家應該是一致向外 一致團結 謝謝好 謝偉"},{"start":3996.979,"end":4000.06,"text":"謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請顧立雄顧部長抱歉請顧部長徐委員好部長好"},{"start":4023.823,"end":4046.505,"text":"那今天的專案報告裡面有提到幾次喔在國軍的這個準備情形上面呢資訊通訊的重要性那所以我想無論是資通或是資安對於國防國安來說都是非常重要的這一個禮拜以來呢那陸續國防部有不少那得標廠商被認為有各式各樣的問題那禮拜一的時候這個顧立雄部長您也提出的回應喔"},{"start":4047.225,"end":4070.291,"text":"那時候您所說的事情是呢這個只要廠商有合法的設立證明納稅證明從事國際貿易或者他們的相關資格就可以投標不需要去管這個公司叫什麼名字資本額是多少那因為呢這個設定一定的資本額也不一定會讓他履約那今天我有一個案子想要跟您做一個討論就是真的是如此嗎"},{"start":4071.472,"end":4083.023,"text":"部長 請問您有了解這個資本額10萬元的紅樟茶行標到國防部兩個案子分別的狀況如何嗎第一個 它是不是屬於機敏性的案子我想 我先這邊先說明一下就是說我們"},{"start":4092.273,"end":4111.603,"text":"查到的大概是有從111年開始的是鴻章茶葉公司的那麼委員所問到的可能是在另外一家公司的名稱叫做軍沒有我問的就是茶行"},{"start":4112.583,"end":4127.732,"text":"如果您問的是查航的這個案子的話那就是111年有兩個案子由海軍的佐資部所辦理的一個資訊設備維護的案子這是一個這是第一個案子這是一個一般的"},{"start":4128.752,"end":4157.563,"text":"老物的你上面本採購是否具有敏感性或國安疑慮之業務採購你勾的是是耶然後呢本採購是否屬於涉及國家安全採購你勾的也是是耶這個是不是請包委員基本上我們只要是國防部採購的品項我們在那邊會勾是那對啊那就代表說他有你都勾是了代表他還是有一定程度的這個要求嘛但實際上還是要看個案的性質所以你認為不是"},{"start":4159.415,"end":4183.804,"text":"你认为他没有涉及你认为这两个案子他有两个案子111年的然后还有呢最新的一个应该是114年对然后最近的12月这两个案子上面勾的打勾的都是属于机敏性的案子然后关于涉及国家安全采购也打勾是那您刚说的很清楚了那是因为这是国防部的案子就是因为他是国防部的案子我们才会这么的重视"},{"start":4184.304,"end":4200.48,"text":"好所以呢我想既然這個上面白紙黑字詢問了就至少對於我今天作為投標方來說那我是不是我今天是投標方來說我是不是在相關的標案上看到的就是屬於敏感性或國安就是屬於涉及國家安全相關的採購是吧"},{"start":4201.881,"end":4226.894,"text":"跟委員報告他凡是要進入我們相關的營區的話就我的了解都是要做治安的沒有錯沒有錯所以他需要有一定的他就跟一般就是比如說我今天可能在什麼其他的資訊的服務所以他要進入到營區所以是這個因為進入到營區所以他對於進入在進來的人我們要做對他做人員的"},{"start":4227.814,"end":4249.751,"text":"當然當然我們要對他做人員的調查對不對好 那我問一下喔那個部長你有沒有看過這個查行的負責人他對外說明的相關影片了不然我先問一下你有看過這個查行的負責人我沒有特別注意好 那我給您看一下好不好因為我覺得這個呢其實滿重要的來 我們播一下影片你們才10萬的資本可以做這麼大的生意會不會覺得很誇張"},{"start":4250.472,"end":4266.048,"text":"我覺得蠻勵志的政府標案大概有拿下幾件五六件有啦五六件包括這一次的對啊就是加起來這樣子後來就也不找那個住店的啦因為住店要再請人什麼的觀念麻煩我們都是找那種維護就是他如果有報休我們就過去這樣子"},{"start":4266.809,"end":4292.274,"text":"那妳這邊說妳有資訊工程背景可不可以拿出妳的學歷證明太突然了啦可是妳是什麼大學畢業我數德科技大學數科大對資訊管理系的是學士還是碩士學士而已學士嗯盤下這個茶葉行之前跟黃君先生就認識了這邊是蠻關鍵等一下我會再問她也是有資訊背景的對啊她該不會是同學同校的沒有啦她跟我差10歲她比你大10歲她大概幾歲的人啊"},{"start":4292.594,"end":4308.916,"text":"他大我10歲我現在30歲他40歲你們是因為有資訊背景才認識的然後他後來把這個盤給你但是現在就是你用紅障的這個名字去標國防部的案子其實你們沒有合作關係單純就是你這邊跟你另外一個夥伴"},{"start":4309.617,"end":4325.381,"text":"就是我們就是工程師會討論我們就兩個人而已啦所以他完全都跟他有關就對了是有些事情會跟他請教對啊因為他真的就不是事業夥伴這樣子事業夥伴喔我之前有聘他當員工幫我跑過對幫我跑過幾個維修的點對但是他就是"},{"start":4329.642,"end":4348.062,"text":"就是工讀生工讀生喔部分這樣子她要做妳的工讀生沒有啦就是因為我們就是用工讀生的時間上時速算對啊就但是就是不是正式員工不然妳論見記仇的對她就不是因為畢竟她來幫我工作她說因為來工作要保老保所以就不把她聘為正式的員工"},{"start":4348.743,"end":4365.098,"text":"好 我就是給您看一下這一段而已第一個我從這個投影片裡面看到幾個問題想要逐一跟部長您來請教首先呢這位負責人他有提到國防部在開標的時候他連開標都沒有去國防部打電話通知他標到了"},{"start":4366.198,"end":4387.928,"text":"開標當日確實廠商沒有義務一定要到場可是這個涉及機敏性的標案在公開場合說出跟國防部的互動這樣的鑑別能力是否代表了我們從結果上看來這個查行得標的兩岸是有疑慮的再來 您可能不知道在社群軟體上面他自己承認自己是人頭我想您可能不知道這件事情這是怎麼講的呢這個"},{"start":4391.076,"end":4404.68,"text":"其實還有另外一張啦反正總是他說反正我只是人頭應該也沒事吧沒有我也沒差吧不管今天他這個是諷刺自己他可能是他諷刺自己他說反正不管怎麼說都會有人說我是人頭啊頭砍下來給你們好了"},{"start":4406.601,"end":4433.84,"text":"他可能是諷刺自己但是無論他是陳述事實或是諷刺自己我相信他茶葉做得很好也很用心但今天如果我們的標案是什麼茶葉的禮盒年節禮品我一點意見都沒有但涉及到我們的資通訊的安全能夠在社群平台上面寫出就是跟國防部的這個互動嗎比如22小時之前我們跟國防部的人說了我們也可以廢標啊等等之類的"},{"start":4434.601,"end":4443.259,"text":"這些都是顯示出了這個茶行他在這樣子的一個資訊安全的標案上面他其實不具敏感性的再來他還說"},{"start":4444.943,"end":4474.087,"text":"他還會做很多事情除了賣茶葉之外學音樂路跑攀岩潛水熱炒店物流會計行銷還會織毛線這些東西都跟這個他所標到的案件一點關係都沒有那不斷的這樣子發言的過程只會讓大家覺得那這個茶行到底是因為這個老闆他有其專業還是他背後有人那我們看一下他其實在裡面有講到因為他大概有十分多鐘我沒有時間這樣一一去講"},{"start":4474.727,"end":4491.059,"text":"他的意思是說他們有兩個人那對方也不是他的員工但是他們看到標案呢就會去標標看他的原文是說好像可以標標看所以對於標到國防部的案子自己都不相信只跟一個所謂工程師到底是誰我們也不知道"},{"start":4491.539,"end":4510.649,"text":"在沒有股東沒有合夥人沒有實際員工的情況下他說公開說的他們兩個人賺請問我們是如何評估投票標準是否適宜不應該是不是只看對方的表面否則如果今天這個公司他洩密我們對這個公司完全沒有了解那對方是直接可以跑路的啊"},{"start":4511.149,"end":4521.496,"text":"那我想請問一下部長您剛看了這個負責人的影片之後您對於這個查行他所標到我們的兩項的資訊資安的維護案你覺得合宜嗎報告委員基本上我們是看廠商的資格那至於說他這個負責人他剛剛所講的裡面並不代表這個成為這個購案是不是成立的這個佐證因為我們是看廠商的資格"},{"start":4540.649,"end":4543.45,"text":"你去看廠商的資格對不對我下一個就要問你必須要再補充的這個案子海軍司令部有確認因為它這是一個系統的維護它不是機敏專案那它系統維護都會把基本上那你們不是說他們也要進營區了嗎來我繼續問"},{"start":4558.577,"end":4576.987,"text":"這個小姐的說法公司只有兩個人她本人在做茶葉很忙所以他們是用臨時工而且他們沒有駐點的工程師是為了要省錢他們承包的案子叫做有人報休之後再找工讀生去請問類似這樣子約聘工讀生的狀況合適做你們剛剛所說的資安相關的委運嗎"},{"start":4580.084,"end":4597.766,"text":"這個基本上所有的作業人員我們依據國軍的規定他不管找誰跟誰合作他進營區都必須要經過他提供名單提供這個施工人員名單我們國防部會做人員查核查核同意了那你們查核到黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進過營區了嗎"},{"start":4601.449,"end":4607.373,"text":"這個要問實際的這個來 我剛剛講工讀生是什麼樣的人來干擾我剛剛講嘛他說他會找工讀生去幫忙去維護嘛這個工讀生所謂維護資訊安全就是他原本的負責人實際上過往真的有以資訊公司叫做軍威科技的黃鴻鈞來做投標的"},{"start":4621.405,"end":4638.115,"text":"可是這個黃宏鈞的軍威科技因為涉及三起三起偽造廠商資格投標包含上面很清楚他投標立法院被發現有問題被拒絕給付然後呢提告韓國瑜院長輸掉官司法務部也告他詐欺判刑確定"},{"start":4638.735,"end":4667.567,"text":"在這個事情之後軍威科技照理來說這個黃鴻鈞他要被列為黑名單結果他利用所謂查行盤給這個林姓負責人30歲年輕女生我覺得他敢出來面對媒體我也給他肯定但是呢一下子是說兩個人沒關係一下說聘用黃鴻鈞先生作為工讀生那等於你把前負責人回聘進來又說是技術上的資源甚至投標的地址是在黃鴻鈞先生的外公家"},{"start":4668.527,"end":4671.79,"text":"所以我想要請問一下那這個案子到底是黃鴻鈞在飆還是林小姐在飆啊跟委員報告一下第一個這個您講的那一家這個軍威公司它被停權的這個是從108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號那軍威公司從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的飆案"},{"start":4692.768,"end":4715.102,"text":"那關於你講的這個紅樟茶行呢他是在111年11月22號來決標的當時也沒有有任何這一個紅樟茶行被停權那你講的那個軍威公司他的停權的時間點也是在事實上是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23號"},{"start":4718.644,"end":4746.572,"text":"那另外再跟委員報告因為這是一個150萬元以下為公告金額以下的一個採購案件所以我想他們這個部分如果按照這個規定採購法的49條的規定吧它是屬於這一個公開取得三家以上的廠商的素面的企劃書的然後則符合需要者就辦理筆價或溢價的這個程序"},{"start":4747.072,"end":4747.734,"text":"都是完全依照公開"},{"start":4750.489,"end":4772.637,"text":"但全部都是依照政府採購法的相關規定來辦我當然知道你們會說用政府採購法的相關規定來辦嘛但是我要講的事情就是說今天這個查行他來標這個案子他是不是掛羊頭賣狗肉你們自己可以看一下這個相關的判決113年度那跟立法院之間的告訴關係還有呢所謂的這個被這個法務部去提告的"},{"start":4777.099,"end":4801.824,"text":"那還有他們過程當中他們剛剛所自己陳述提出的跟他們在做維修維護的方式我要問的是不是你們當時說我當初我在開標的時候他們有沒有按照這個資料有沒有來然後給你審核完我問的是結果就是說從這個結果上來看他們用第一個取消駐點人員因為要省錢第二個把一家錢"},{"start":4804.544,"end":4832.35,"text":"這個資訊公司也就是黃紅軍的公司然後呢把他拿過來請他當工讀生進到我們的營區裡面來做維修第三個只是為了不要讓他保老保增加所謂的公司的開支再來呢這個他們登記的投標的所謂的投標他登記的地址是黃紅軍的外公家這些事情當時是事前有做過查核事後我們回頭追溯這件事情的時候你們覺得他這樣子做合理合法嗎"},{"start":4834.482,"end":4846.108,"text":"二委員您剛剛講的他有一些投標遭受到一些刑罰的問題跟這個案子沒有關係他是軍威公司我知道嘛我說所以就是因為他出了問題之後所以這個查行然後呢他就呢我呢就把你聘用為你不要來投標用我本來的公司我把我本來的公司過給你林小姐"},{"start":4857.794,"end":4867.182,"text":"讓你林小姐去投標林小姐得標之後那還是我黃鴻鈞來做但是呢我又不想要讓我的名字在裡面出現所以呢我就用工讀生的名義來負責這個維運他們的形式狀況就是這樣啊"},{"start":4871.307,"end":4891.453,"text":"我想就鴻章公司來講它的營業項目也就是有資訊軟體的這一個相關的服務業的這樣子的營業項目那您提到的那個111年的海軍組織部的案子是一個80萬的一個預算金額我都講的是茶行63萬9998元那這個也都已經經過驗收合格已經結案了"},{"start":4899.415,"end":4923.225,"text":"對 所以我在說你們的驗收你們的所謂的合格你們的結案你們知道他沒有設駐點人員嗎你們知道他取消駐點人員是為了他自己說是為了要省錢嗎你們知道他們公司裡面是派工讀生去給你維修嗎他沒有告訴你這件事情嗎你們知道嗎這個合約啊 據我們了解他是要完成這個系統的維護並沒有要求廠商要駐點"},{"start":4924.748,"end":4934.398,"text":"他本來有做註點的人員嘛但是呢他這個標德案子之後他就覺得好像也不需要了所以呢為了要省錢多賺一點他說他跟另外一個工程師他們想要兩個人賺這個錢嘛那不管怎麼樣我們是以合約執行期間那這個案子並沒有要求他註點至於說委員剛剛講他在標德之前他有註點那這個我們待會要查證"},{"start":4947.031,"end":4963.786,"text":"那再來就是說你所謂的用工讀生這件事情是為了規避投保他剛剛講了他為什麼要請工讀生去做維運而不是有一個固定的人專業的人去做然後呢是要用工讀生而且這個工讀生就是另外一家科技公司的老闆來做這件事情他講說不然我要幫他去保勞保"},{"start":4964.807,"end":4990.229,"text":"那我們的廠商國防部的廠商弄成這個樣子你覺得很合宜嗎你請不能以工讀生來判定他能不能這個執行不是你沒有聽懂我的意思他說他請工讀生的原因是因為他不想幫人家保勞保所以用這個方式可以節省他公司的開支那像這樣子的一個廠商這個部分屬於勞資雙方對於就是說"},{"start":4992.791,"end":4996.332,"text":"你們在給他標案的時候或許你可以告訴我們說你可以告訴我們說當時我們不知道可是現在這個事情已經公佈出來他都這麼陳述了那請問你們有沒有要處理有沒有要去查核嘛我問的是這個問題嘛這應該跟呂業的事項沒有關聯嘛"},{"start":5011.81,"end":5037.91,"text":"你認為這樣OK以後大家來標我們的來標我們的案子裡面然後呢他標了之後他自己的勞資關係然後他去用所謂的去把前一個公司的然後呢他有這個黑資料的然後把他聘來用工讀生然後不要保勞保給他然後用這種方式來維護我們國家的資安你們都覺得很合理你們都覺得在這個事情爆發之後他自己也出來坦承這件事情之後查也不用查就讓他這樣過去下一次再繼續標給他是嗎"},{"start":5039.992,"end":5064.458,"text":"委員我想我們就合約來論合約那合約的履行我們有沒有符合在招標的時候符合政務採購法相關規定履約的過程我們有沒有確實讓他進行一個履約然後履約完畢之後我們來進行那個驗收結案這個才是重點至於其他的我想很多這個勞務之間的他"},{"start":5067.519,"end":5079.583,"text":"勞資之間勞資之間他有任何相關的一個糾紛就我們甲方的立場當然這個有相關的部會可以來處理那我們作為甲方立場我們就是盡量把這個合約完進行完成你們要處理嗎我先前你們在做那個營造的時候然後裡面有抓到這個非法移工的你們也會去處理你們也不是說那是這個營造商跟這個移工的事情不關我們國防部的事情"},{"start":5093.568,"end":5111.597,"text":"怎麼到了這個事情上面就變成是他們自己勞資糾紛的事呢然後你也要我們會請相關部會去了解我要再強調一次你像海軍內岸好了當時也有其他的資訊公司來飆那你們在資訊公司跟查航之間你們不猶豫的選擇了讓查航來做這樣子的一個資訊資安委員啊"},{"start":5114.779,"end":5120.604,"text":"我們沒有不由於因為剛剛已經講過了就是依照這個未達150萬的金額那他有相關的資格那我們就根據這個溢價他們比價的結果來進行這樣子的一個對 這就是一個問題因為你們只單看比價你們沒有想要嘗試去了解說這家公司他的這個營運狀況他裡面有沒有一些問題像比如說他"},{"start":5139.54,"end":5154.411,"text":"他只有一個人然後呢沒有員工這件事你們事前知道嗎你們事前知道這家茶行來做我們的60萬100萬的維運資安維運裡面沒有其他員工嗎只有一個很忙的茶行的老闆娘你們知道嗎"},{"start":5155.091,"end":5160.855,"text":"包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不知道包委員請聽我說包委員因為這是一個公開招標我們不會知道等一下開標的時候哪些廠商會來那但是我們開標的時候我們是針對廠商的這個資格來查那至於說開標之前我不知道紅章來我第一個我不知道紅章會來第二個我不知道紅章查他的這個裡面的這個他的成員是怎麼樣我們是以廠商資格為"},{"start":5182.609,"end":5190.172,"text":"是啊 但是你到時候進到營區的時候你們不都說會填他們的相關資料了嗎所以我剛剛問說黃鴻鈞先生有沒有進到營區裡面去幫你們做相關的服務嗎有沒有嘛有 那你也知道有啊那你前面跟我講這麼多你為什麼不剛剛跟我說有呢所以我剛剛問說"},{"start":5202.197,"end":5223.377,"text":"剛剛問黃鴻章的時候黃鴻鈞對不起黃鴻鈞的時候為什麼你不跟我說有有就好呢實際上就是你們就知道這個黃鴻鈞先生他以公獨身的名義然後到了營區裡面去做這個資訊維護但是他先前就是鴻鈞科技鴻鈞公司老闆然後呢他把他原本的公司給了這個林小姐讓林小姐去標標完之後實際上在做的還是他自己"},{"start":5223.737,"end":5241.95,"text":"包委員真的我們開標的時候我們不會知道他過去這個負責人有更換怎麼樣的但是我們以現在你投標是誰哪個公司名義哪個負責人哪個這個他的公司的資格合不合規定那至於他過往你剛剛已經重複過我時間不夠你這個長話短說好不好請用書面回答已經超過10分鐘了好不好"},{"start":5247.754,"end":5264.878,"text":"拜託今天既然人家已經都把事情講出來了裡面有很多可能違反勞基法可能違反相關的一些法律或者是可能跟他當初投標的時候跟你們講的不一樣的地方都應該要好好的去做相關的查核可以嗎好 謝謝謝謝許曉金委員的質詢下面請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":5293.593,"end":5299.997,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局長 國防部長我請蔡局長 顧部長請局長首先"},{"start":5311.127,"end":5328.038,"text":"兩位早 局長首先我們在今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說在這個美日飛他的聯演有將那個提風的這個中程導彈部署到日本的山口線對不對局長我是"},{"start":5331.949,"end":5348.275,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下剛剛在那個專報口報過程當中有特別提到颱風飛彈不過它這個飛彈是它在演訓的時候它才會部署到委員關切的南溪諸島的部分平時並沒有部署在這個地方但一旦有在危機發生或演訓的時候所以它現在還在不在"},{"start":5348.575,"end":5351.697,"text":"現在不在已經不在了只是因為這個報導讓我們看起來會覺得說好像他還部署在那裡所以其實我們希望你在提供報告的或者說明的時候必須很明確因為這樣子會誤導我們所有的安全防衛的這樣子的一個概念那因為在最近大家都可以看得到不管是東海台海"},{"start":5373.174,"end":5381.737,"text":"還有南海其實都發生比較可能激烈的一些狀況那我們也看到大陸對日本的軍演因為我們從上一次培洛西來台以後其實我們的壓力其實限縮的越來越大那也像現在周邊的區域其實也面臨到這樣的影響那我們現在對這樣的演習用比較簡單的方式可不可以提出來"},{"start":5402.329,"end":5404.252,"text":"因為剛剛有提到說美國對我們還是非常重視像台灣的地理地位在第一島鏈然後可是說台灣在最新的國家安全戰略裡面它的重要性也明顯的上升"},{"start":5419.133,"end":5422.494,"text":"可是美國卻把過去反對任何單方面改變台海現狀的表述把它改成不支持任何單方面改變台海現狀這個部分我想就剛剛提到的整體的狀況還有現在的一個狀況我們國安局延期的意見到底是什麼"},{"start":5440.959,"end":5467.254,"text":"大概跟委員簡單報告說明一下就因為中共在海空的武力的擴張近期確實是動作比較多那引起了包括美國跟友盟的高度關注簡單的說明 延續這個部分好 第一個部分就是在美國這些公開的戰略文件當中大概都表達了對於第一島鏈安全的一個關注 第一部分第二部分是在串聯區域友盟應該要投注更多的一個國防資源來提升防衛的力量"},{"start":5467.614,"end":5487.18,"text":"那這也是剛剛在報告時候提到美國印太戰略裡面有三個重要的支柱一個就是確保相關海域通道的暢通一個就是區友盟分擔防衛的責任第三個就是美國進行必要的前進部署所以整體的趨勢態勢大概是出現美盟有點在遏制中國的軍事擴張的這樣的一個基本的圖像"},{"start":5487.85,"end":5491.633,"text":"看起來局長剛剛說明似乎是這樣可是我們看到他現實的舉動並不是這樣做我們看到有很多過去包括航母艦隊包括他們的戰鬥機他們那時候在關島或者現在的中程導彈的一個相關的部署其實都是往後退而且都是退出"},{"start":5508.626,"end":5512.828,"text":"這樣第一島鏈的一個狀況就是過去跟現在其實你可能跟他比較的時間的長短我們現在要的是比較現實面的到底對我們會造成什麼樣的影響剛剛提出來似乎還是覺得說我們有受到他們還是有強化然後我們可能還是在這一方面其實還是可以跟郵盟還是可以信任美國可是我們看到的事實上的一個具體的狀況好像不是這樣"},{"start":5538.641,"end":5542.803,"text":"那接下來就我們目前區域的緊張態勢因為如果照這樣說它跟以前過去沒有太大的改變我們現在的很多的舉措或者我們現在對外的一個發表的一些相關的言論包括國防部還有包括我們現在想要提升的這樣的一個國防預算似乎都是不太融合的它是背道而馳"},{"start":5567.978,"end":5570.419,"text":"所以我在這裡先請教一下我們部長好了因為國防部近日對外有提到如果共軍突然行動國軍將採取所謂的去中心化的指揮然後不帶命令即可作戰我想要先請教一個基礎的問題國防部所稱的去中心化指揮它具體是指什麼"},{"start":5592.061,"end":5608.499,"text":"我想他要跟這個然後他 我把他問完他的制度依據跟適用的層級為何這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 我想我們的主要的重點都在於要讓各層級的部隊都要知道他上級給"},{"start":5609.6,"end":5635.662,"text":"賦予的任務所以這叫做一個任務室指揮的概念那麼他在這樣子的一個遂行他所必須被託物的任務的情況之下他要能夠進行這個就算沒有一個中心的一個給他的一個指揮的情況之下他仍然能夠遂行他的任務所以這是一個任務室指揮去中心化指管的一個概念"},{"start":5638.44,"end":5645.548,"text":"所以他要應對各種的可能的一些狀況來做相對應的應變處置所以我再請教部長剛剛您說他大概的狀況那是什麼樣的層級他是一個什麼樣的層級可以去做這樣的一個事"},{"start":5662.146,"end":5666.988,"text":"這個您講的是指狀況還是講成績如果成績不管是戰略 作戰 戰術都必須要大家都清楚自己的哪一個成績 我確認一個前提因為漢光演習跟學界其實這些都有討論過去中心化或者任務室的指揮"},{"start":5686.775,"end":5690.696,"text":"可是這些是不是都建立在戰爭狀態已經成立然後任務已經下達的前提之下是不是我想從灰色地帶的洗澡灰色地帶的洗澡也包含在如何應處的範圍之內那我們會將灰色地帶洗澡分成低中高的強度他要隨時要應對這樣子的一個"},{"start":5711.101,"end":5714.704,"text":"我們先回答一個就好因為灰色洗腦是你們說的那大家不知道啊包括你的所有的作戰的這些軍事官兵他們的成績他們沒有辦法很明確的知道請告訴我們"},{"start":5729.278,"end":5738.486,"text":"如果像剛剛去中心化或者任務是去中心化的任務是指揮這個是不是在建立在戰爭狀態已經成立而且任務已經下達的這個前提之下是或不是如果委員問的是這一段的話這一段所講的當然是在於突然發起攻擊的這個前提之下"},{"start":5751.897,"end":5775.036,"text":"但是在灰色地帶的這個應出上面我想要請部長明確的回答像去中心化這樣的指揮體系是指戰爭已經成立是或不是我們在睡醒防衛作戰的時候會更強調沒有 是或不是啦我們會更強調這樣的任務是指揮跟去中心化的指管"},{"start":5776.137,"end":5792.838,"text":"所以是在戰爭已經成立了嗎就已經是拉動戰爭因為戰爭開始之後我們的這個所謂的去中心化這個觀念要被強調的原因是因為共軍對我們的進行所謂的第一級的時候我們確實是比較有可能面臨這個狀況"},{"start":5794.724,"end":5817.577,"text":"你說說我們展開第一集還是共軍共軍展開第一集所以這個已經是戰爭成立嘛就您的說法應該是要更在戰爭發起的時候就被打到第一集的情況之下我們更要強調這樣子的一個任務所以已經是戰爭成立的情況之下嘛你就已經被第一集已經受到攻擊不能夠排除灰色地帶的洗腦也有面對"},{"start":5820.859,"end":5823.921,"text":"這個土花狀況的一個處置的一個問題部長因為這些論述從來都不是用來授權基層單位因為你剛剛講的灰色洗澡或者什麼樣的一個狀況漢光演習或者其他學界早就有在討論這些然後也有類似的任務指揮"},{"start":5841.448,"end":5842.97,"text":"他並不是沒有這個指揮體系啦可是我們現在剛剛講的這些都從來沒有用在授權基層單位自行判斷是否進入戰爭狀態對不對"},{"start":5857.702,"end":5875.419,"text":"由基層單位去判斷說這個是不是進入戰爭狀態因為你說進入戰爭狀態以後你才會有去中心化這個問題那現在剛剛已經是明確這樣子那這樣子我們也沒有授權基層去判斷是不是戰爭狀態 對不對"},{"start":5877.748,"end":5894.279,"text":"我們應該如果委員講所謂戰爭狀態我不太確定說你講是指一個全面戰爭我們現在在這裡比較著重在於他受到軍事攻擊的狀態軍事攻擊就是已經進入狀態他當面就受到軍事攻擊嘛"},{"start":5895.997,"end":5920.485,"text":"這樣子很不清楚因為你們沒有授權基層去判斷戰爭狀態我想要請教是或不是是或不是基層可不可以去判斷是不是戰爭狀態我們之所以要強調這個也是因為我們所面對的威脅它所存在的狀態並不必然一定是在準戰爭狀態下的灰色地帶那你講一個具體的"},{"start":5923.986,"end":5944.092,"text":"我們的基層可以自行判斷是不是可以講一個具體的因為你現在已經分析過很多我們就是因為這個威脅存在所以才在平時的時候就要訓練我們的基層官兵理解到這些狀況之下的時候它可能存在哪一種狀態你講一個具體的嘛比方說此時此刻"},{"start":5945.168,"end":5970.833,"text":"共軍正在對我們做聯合戰備警訊如果我們等到這些狀態在瞬間由訓轉演 由演轉戰基層官兵還要等到我們中央再來給他指揮的時候那恐怕會來不及那所以我們在平常的時候就應該要訓練我們的基層的主官具備這樣的知識還有這樣的能力來面對共軍這樣子快速轉變的這個敵情變化謝謝"},{"start":5973.76,"end":5979.361,"text":"那你過去花了這麼多錢你未來還要花很多錢建立的這些連戰指揮系統或者你的情資因為只有為什麼我們要建立這些系統他就是因為你才能夠掌握全盤今天如果只有一個單純的基層他看到這個狀況比如說像之前日本的那個那個戰鬥機被鎖定的時候他有可能被打的時候那他可不可以這個"},{"start":6003.166,"end":6008.747,"text":"你們到現在我想簡單的跟委員我就幾句話我們強調去中心化就是說就是不管是軍事戰略層級或者是作戰層級或者戰術層級都在區中區分中心化的指揮跟分散式的管制跟去中心化的執行就要讓各級確實了解上一指揮官他的企圖那麼透過任務室指揮授權及責任區的賦予我們結合了交戰規則授權任務部隊因地制宜"},{"start":6032.873,"end":6036.404,"text":"要來果斷的遂行他應該互解他的一個任務"},{"start":6037.93,"end":6046.754,"text":"部長 這樣子我想基層分不出來你們剛剛講的基層可能也分不出來我們要透過不斷的演練來加以驗證這些各基層的部隊那個不是演練的問題那是你在做決策的時候為什麼我們要有這樣的一個中心化的指揮那你要去中心化 那個可以可是你必須要很具體我先請教一下局長好了在共軍突然行動的時候比如說他強電池干擾"},{"start":6066.804,"end":6087.848,"text":"他通聯不穩的情況之下國安局是否能保證我們的勤資可以及時完整的送達到第一線作戰單位作戰單位的情報的指揮跟分享可能還是國防部這邊那我們這邊主要是基於國安的層級的情報那會在高層決策的時候把這個整體的態勢做一個分析"},{"start":6089.136,"end":6094.22,"text":"所以他有可能這是國防部負責的嘛 對不對他的情資你判斷他的在強電池干擾或者通聯不穩的情況之下他是不是有辦法把情資完整的送到第一線的作戰單位回答是或不是我想國防部對於通訊任性的部分應該有他的相關整備計畫由國防部來說明會比較詳細一點"},{"start":6114.522,"end":6120.345,"text":"我們現在在講的是情資因為國安局對於情資是最清楚的我會突然不是突然我特別請教國安局是因為在極端的情況之下沒有辦法保證及時到位所以我們問的是非常關鍵的問題在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前基層是否被授權啟動武力行動"},{"start":6144.927,"end":6168.499,"text":"這個部分由國防部來回答好了在沒有獲得上級確認敵情成立的命令之前曾幾是否被授權啟動武力行動我們的基層跟委員報告如果委員一定要這樣區分的話我們可以分成兩個第一個就是我們還沒有遭受到真實的攻擊第二個是我們遭受到真實的攻擊委員意思是要問這一段嗎"},{"start":6169.798,"end":6184.703,"text":"那如果我们遭受到我们遭受到真实的攻击那个攻击状态已经形成了所以你说是战争状态那我们在攻击的状态形成之后我们当然要设想最坏的状况有可能我们的中心的指挥的体系"},{"start":6186.087,"end":6201.493,"text":"被斷掉啊所以我們現在想的就是一個最壞的scenario那如果至於是還沒有發生真實戰爭的狀態我們剛剛已經講我們會透過立即備戰操演二級這樣接杯 一級這樣接杯這個當然在還沒有受到攻擊的情況之下"},{"start":6202.173,"end":6219.79,"text":"當然我們的中心的指揮還存在我要的答案就是你剛剛一直在說明的所以不管他是不是由基層已經去在訊號中斷的情況之下訊息中斷或者指揮體系中斷的情況之下他可以自行去做判斷先決條件是已經發生戰爭"},{"start":6222.813,"end":6239.65,"text":"你的意思是這樣嗎對 已經被攻擊嘛所以因為我們為什麼今天要特別提出來我們在看看到國防部對外說可以去中心化的時候這個國軍快速反應的必要性而且離這個是非常重要的啦他在因為沒有辦法"},{"start":6240.811,"end":6247.755,"text":"去達到一個整體的指揮體系的時候它這個快速反應是很重要可是我們要釐清一個關鍵的界限就是哪些決策可以下放哪些決策絕對不可以下放去中心化這個軍事上它確實存在"},{"start":6259.781,"end":6272.206,"text":"可是他只是用在戰爭狀態因為我們看出來看起來你在對外發表的時候好像在非戰爭狀態他如果受到什麼樣的攻擊他可以自行去也自己可以發動這樣的攻擊"},{"start":6274.636,"end":6296.785,"text":"所以你明確的是說在戰爭狀態發生以後嘛對不對我想我們都是一個防衛作戰我們會進行所進行都是一個自衛決定形式部長 這個非常重要是當國防部對外使用去中心化並且搭配不符合命令即可作戰的這個說法的時候層級被混用了因為我們想要釐清的是這一點一旦"},{"start":6303.988,"end":6308.551,"text":"他的責任會被模糊掉一旦情資不完整或者通聯中斷最終可能把本來應該由國家承擔的風險國家才可以去做這樣子的決策判斷的時候你把他轉嫁到基層的官兵身上所以我們才會討論在不在這個不是戰術的細節喔我們一直在確保戰爭判斷是到底是哪一個層級到底是在怎麼樣的一個界線底下去做的"},{"start":6334.028,"end":6341.524,"text":"所以你在對外說這個去中心化的時候必須要讓這個很清楚明白所以剛剛部長提到的就是已經戰爭發生了嘛這個我們想要明確這一點 是不是"},{"start":6346.561,"end":6350.064,"text":"我剛剛已經提到了就是說就是戰爭已經發生啦就是戰爭已經發生所以我們的基層可以自行去做判斷因為部長這個很重要你只要回答是或不是你的去中心化的說辭是這樣嗎我們在報告裡面已經提到是當遭受到突然發起攻擊的時候"},{"start":6366.959,"end":6372.163,"text":"對 所以您剛剛我剛剛已經說明很清楚了在去中心化指揮的這種情況之下的前提當然是他在"},{"start":6379.076,"end":6384.4,"text":"攻擊的狀態之下的一個是比較應該是會發生的這樣可能的狀況最糟糕的情況會發生這樣的狀況因為你剛剛已經說明了就是戰爭啟動的一個狀態之下因為戰爭啟動是國家發生的這個對於後續追究責任的時候萬一有戰爭罪或其他的罪行的時候是很重要的所以不要把它推給基層的官兵"},{"start":6406.175,"end":6411.957,"text":"去中心化他就是在戰爭已經發生以後這是有國家層級必須要去承擔這樣子的一個責任跟風險我們今天要特別詢問的是這個那剛剛我也聽到呃有呃我們徐小新委員提到的這個問題齁我們再把它點出來這個不是合約的問題今天如果我們為什麼要分軍網跟民網為什麼我們有內網跟外網今天他的他的那個"},{"start":6434.384,"end":6456.966,"text":"招标金额虽然很低可是如果他随便的一个人就是他们所谓不管你要不要用工读生去定义他随便一个人可以进到营区我们为什么要花大钱去设警监系统我们为什么要花大钱去买我们所有的无人机的监侦系统为什么我们要严格的设军网"},{"start":6458.928,"end":6463.19,"text":"花大錢在我們的資訊上面或者我們的電展示上面我們所有的全部都是要保護這個結果你因為他一個小案就是因為小案所以你不注意你不注意這個人就可以趁虛而入如果他想要攻擊他想要做駭客他想要有什麼其他的我們沒有讓他趁虛而入部長我們在提供服務的時候我們都會有人在那邊"},{"start":6484.58,"end":6489.183,"text":"然後呢我們當然也會做安全查核全程在那邊監控然後維護營區的安全跟他秘密的所在不會去嗎部長這幾天來你們一直都是在講這一個部分如果這樣子可以的話我剛剛提到的那些預算你都不用花你只要你在做什麼的時候旁邊有人看著就好這是我剛剛要特別提出來的這是兩件部長"},{"start":6513.759,"end":6519.261,"text":"那個不是兩件事到現在你還不知道它的重要性為什麼我們要做軍網跟民網的區隔你今天不管你海軍或者其他的他只要連上網他都可能可以做什麼樣的手腳"},{"start":6531.565,"end":6546.677,"text":"你們如果還要再解釋的是合約的內容或者那個對象一點都沒有把重點放在這裡如果是這樣好像你們也不需要太多的預算你現在有提到的是資安的部分資安的部分我們當然也會做查核啊這個要不要請同事再跟你"},{"start":6551.721,"end":6579.281,"text":"委員好 因為只要是涉及到資通設備的我們有訂辦一個國軍委外辦理資通系統服務的所有資安管控 軍網的網路是不是都可以連結除了非常機敏 軍網是不是可以連結如果我是一個高手我想要從裡面拿取資料會不會困難所以所以 國安局長國安局長回答這一題如果我們的軍網我們為什麼要做區隔如果有一個"},{"start":6580.482,"end":6588.586,"text":"高手他想要有什麼樣的情資他有沒有辦法從這裡去獲取有沒有辦法高手我們有沒有辦法有沒有辦法是有辦法但是只要是有我們要的是這個答案如果你今天有一個人在旁邊看著"},{"start":6598.493,"end":6602.495,"text":"都會有人看著那以後不要編預算了你在這樣的預算底下你根本不需要你只要旁邊有人看著你不需要再花大錢百億 十億這樣的預算去做這樣的治安的管控如果是這樣被害不用到現場"},{"start":6619.824,"end":6622.627,"text":"今天為什麼我們不然我跟你講一個重要的概念今天我們營區進去為什麼要管制我如果有一個工作生我現在隨便一個人因為你如果是一個有信用的一個公司可以讓我們可以隨時追蹤的"},{"start":6639.261,"end":6643.904,"text":"那你當然會有一個對象你比較好管控嘛這是我們軍方跟其他的行政部會或者其他單位不同的地方今天你們一直今天也這樣照昨天也這樣照大家在乎的並不是你的合約是不是合法而是說你在軍方的管制本來就是比較重要的你的錢越少他越容易讓人家趁虛而入因為你覺得不重要所以我就可以進來"},{"start":6668.998,"end":6675.782,"text":"趁虛而入 部長謝謝謝謝馬委員請先回座接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":6700.237,"end":6728.465,"text":"有請國安局蔡局長跟顧部長兩位請蔡局長還有顧部長兩位長官早今天有些問題要向大家請益首先就是國安局講的提到了美國的國家安全戰略國防部也提到了"},{"start":6730.216,"end":6750.765,"text":"美国的国家安全战略是哪一年开始有的我向大家做说明1986年高尼法案那么日本的国家安全战略2013年第一个版本出来然后到了2015年安保法"},{"start":6751.741,"end":6773.841,"text":"集体自卫法然后2022年安保三法那么高市早苗在上任以后原本是2027年要推出新版本他现在决定2026年就要推出那么我们都是看别人的国家安全战略来定位我自己的核心利益我觉得这个非常不妥本席已经在过去的10年间"},{"start":6775.339,"end":6796.48,"text":"重复的向我们的政府长官提议尤其是国安国防国家安全战略不是军事战略军事战略是赢得胜利战争的胜利国家安全战略是赢得和平如果我们自己没有一个对自己的核心价值去读人家的国安战略来决定"},{"start":6797.452,"end":6822.706,"text":"我的重要性提台湾八次六次这个有什么差别那现在用这个图片您看刚才国安局提的这个日本呢有提供了一些他未来部署飞弹我们透过图层就知道他所在的位置那他所在的位置是他部署或者是将来机动能够涵盖的范围"},{"start":6824.278,"end":6844.429,"text":"但是并没有涵盖它的sensor所以我们讲的这种战略性的共同图像是大范围的战略态势 卫照 海图 航图武器sensor的图全部套叠上去对我们内部长官的判别就有一个清楚的方法"},{"start":6845.379,"end":6871.176,"text":"所以我一直在强调JCOP共同图像刚才讲的是战略共同图像战术图像火邪的图像那刚才讲的如果去中心化分散配置授权这个涉及到武装冲突法他的承担责任那就是长官将来ROE里面要背书同时这个东西要去纳入"},{"start":6872.554,"end":6896.327,"text":"国防大学 子参教育 因为你的子参教育没有教这个你教连三讲 教连二讲 这是没有用的所以所有的图像必须要精准交叉比对我相信这个目前因为国军啊 士林营厂也没有做这个东西陆军有没有这个那个海军是不是能够协助解释我们如何能够提供共同图像"},{"start":6907.183,"end":6934.658,"text":"委員長 海軍參謀長報告那目前我們大氣局有負責的相關因為我們整個的GPS系統有分六拐跟八式的WGS在這些座標校正那我們目前大氣局跟內政部還有各部會所需要的圖資包括我們三軍也會在我們勤制式的這個整合下後面我們大氣局可以協助做這個相關的圖資的校正然後跟相關圖資的可以校正完之後怎麼來"},{"start":6935.638,"end":6962.132,"text":"回到這個整個COP裡面後面我們會提供必要的協助我特別要強調因為到現在我們的陸軍作戰區還是用UTM坐標圖 紙本的圖那它跟海空軍的圖完全不能夠比對那即使去中心化你的授權跨部隊的橫向協調沒有共同圖像這是非常高的風險但誠如部長講的如果只是自衛而不是反擊"},{"start":6963.294,"end":6987.428,"text":"那这个授权是没有关系的你现在的海马斯已经是全部素面化将来的滨海作战指挥部机动鱼叉这两个单位是没有办法沟通的因为通讯装备只管不同所以去中心化只是针对各单位做自我防卫的一个火力开放而不是反击这些定位要清楚这些东西如果不在武装冲突法"},{"start":6988.727,"end":7001.342,"text":"海上这些法律的在我们的国防大学法律系或者职参教育先去定位清楚变成我们未来的指挥官的一个教学的话只要人一定要拆这个就去掉了"},{"start":7002.116,"end":7019.43,"text":"美军的DEFCON THREATCOM INFOCOM他都有交叉比对虽然我们现在是两阶段三个不同的方法你提升战备到应急战备那这个当然有中心不可能中心一夜被摧毁不然我们未来台湾之盾整个concept就被毁掉了所以"},{"start":7021.308,"end":7049.226,"text":"台湾之盾就是一个完整的网络结构如果这个地方去掉了其他可以补足但绝对不是直线的授权往下走我们再看下一张图这张图是海图周遭的东西可是台湾滩在哪里我们国安局的报告台湾滩是四亿至于从平潭岛到厦门岛它执行海上搜救任务"},{"start":7050.414,"end":7073.408,"text":"占便宜吃豆腐利用台湾这个名称启扰我们的影响我们的民心士气但是有图一出来清楚解释那这种图在国安局没有国防部也没有因为这是大海区可以协助航图海图路图做校正套叠这个叫做共同图像而不是一个概念性的解释共同图像各位看这个图"},{"start":7078.063,"end":7102.451,"text":"這張圖是大的衛星照片根據國際民航組織的圖所有的空軍 中共的訓練空域我們的訓練空域全部要標上去因為你不能影響民航機的飛行那從這個圖像你看到一個大範圍這個時候再根據我們國防部每天公布的這個圖套疊上去"},{"start":7103.345,"end":7125.961,"text":"请问长官这样子是不是你对周遭的战略态势可以有一个更客观的判断所以说绝对不是用一张图必须用套叠我们国防部也很辛苦每天公布攻击绕台绕台但是你有没有把其他的训练空域标注出来目前没有这个可以努力可以精进我是肯定"},{"start":7126.826,"end":7149.672,"text":"那比方讲南海的图周遭的图整个的状况全部在我们国安团队跟国安局要能够分享我希望海军在图的方面因为你们有GIS做校正的能力401厂只是列印把这个图这个能力分享让长官有一个大格局宏观的看法"},{"start":7154.605,"end":7177.987,"text":"特别讲到中共在南海跟菲律宾的问题我特别要强调有关在黄岩岛也就是民主交的中共跟菲律宾因为执法潜在的冲突但是我提过外交部讲根据我们内支部领海法这是我们的主权范围即使你现在没有派人管即使是一个小交群"},{"start":7179.175,"end":7206.14,"text":"但这不是菲律宾的权益也不是中共的权益我们的立场要说明因为内政部的领海公布里面在这里面至于刚刚讲的下面的这个什么仁爱交 先兵交大家只是概念根本不知道在哪里所以我们要把图像做出来然后在跨部会的协商的时候大家才知道这个影响是什么哪些是我们的国家权益哪些是民主的价值这两个不是同步的"},{"start":7206.9,"end":7219.215,"text":"那現在我特別要提到我們都談美國的國家安全戰略日本的國家安全戰略因為這麼多年來我們沒有我們版本的國家安全戰略並不是軍事戰略所以對"},{"start":7220.925,"end":7247.239,"text":"陸委會 海委會 內政部 能源 經濟 醫療體系我們純粹使用軍事講所以說有沒有軍事衝突它是有戰略預警的並不是純軍事上剛才部長講的是一個小規模的衝突但不是全面犯台全面犯台的作戰計畫我想聯二我們大家知道反向預算不管是能源要準備醫療體系要準備 儲油要準備甚至外匯存底 黃金都會有變動所以"},{"start":7248.86,"end":7272.486,"text":"一定要有自己的國家安全戰略才有的國家利益核心目標這個時候軍事的從上到下從下到上的支撐才是完整的那同樣美國的國家安全戰略出來國防戰略 軍事戰略 印太戰略包括它的美國的國務院 國防部"},{"start":7273.376,"end":7302.286,"text":"中情局甚至国会他都有专案小组他的资讯分解分享就是刚才局长讲的跨部会要有一个完整的资讯分享立场不同责任不同但是核心利益要怎么样做化解出来这个就是告诉我们现在我们缺乏的是什么我们没有国家安全战略我们今年出了这个四年期国防总检讨比起上一个版本有进步从48页"},{"start":7304.175,"end":7333.417,"text":"变到59页国防战略从1页半变到4页那我们刚出来的国防战略就是白皮书2025年的从183页变到189页内容从4页变到6页我们是在进步但是跟周边的国家相比我们落后很多为什么呢因为没有一个国家安全战略做总指导所以纯粹用国防部的立场来看"},{"start":7334.744,"end":7360.734,"text":"是不够周延的诚如刚才第一个我们执政党的委员讲说我们在杯葛在程序委员会我向大家回应如果执政党在野党的总召跟他的书记长能够在开程序委员会之前先做沟通了解观念就不是在程序委员会投票未反对 觉得反对"},{"start":7363.785,"end":7386.886,"text":"請問這個1.25兆裡面在國內增加國內的實力佔比佔有多少五分之一 四分之一這個站位市長委員問的是實力還是自主我們講的這個1.25兆投資在國內的百分比佔多少投資在"},{"start":7389.921,"end":7404.395,"text":"這個部分我們還要等到我們軍售案的額度確認之後才有辦法去計算我們國內的佔比但是基本上國內的佔比會佔相當大的部分你講的是一個很好的理念"},{"start":7405.888,"end":7434.476,"text":"軍售案 商售案 軍售融資總統特別授權法案這四個案子的特別比例搞不清楚 那國內就不知道1.25兆是投資但是並不是Life Cycle Support如果你算它的售限 售期的維保可能再加2.5兆這個是不在這裡面的你1.25兆建立的是能力並不是量能所以在野黨跟執政黨是需要做溝通我當然支持 我覺得你還不夠"},{"start":7435.458,"end":7444.351,"text":"你的人才培養你的後勤為寶你這些東西都不在裡面了你現在看到只是裝備而且美國的廠商看到商機很好大家都來"},{"start":7447.079,"end":7472.447,"text":"表达诚意但是很多东西框架上只是在那边细节他也讲不出来所以我们提出的建言是什么希望能够努力的执行朝正确方案走我当然支持我还觉得你应该增加因为你要把后勤为宝的life cycle授其成本全部放进去不是只是硬体投资所以从这个图看完了以后我们看这张图因为没有国家安全战略"},{"start":7473.703,"end":7490.072,"text":"所以呢我们只是从纯军事的着眼那友邦呢我们是去看他的我自己的战略意味跟我的核心价值不是去读美国读日本的国家安全战略请问我们政府能不能在国防部国安局"},{"start":7491.247,"end":7505.977,"text":"陸委會內政部所有部會共同努力下希望在這個政府的任期內推出我們的官方版的國家安全戰略這樣你的友盟才能定義你的核心價值如果這樣子看各位看我們有很多大的缺口"},{"start":7506.838,"end":7523.614,"text":"这是努力不够不是各位努力不够是团队的整合不够所以我再次提出来光读别人的国家安全战略而没有产生中华民国官方版的国安战略这有很大的一个落差也就是说你1.25兆的诚意很好"},{"start":7524.386,"end":7545.272,"text":"那一方面讲2030年GDP5%但是1.5呢北造北约是属于社会韧性那在这个1.25到8年的期程里面的那为什么不能在本国的产业能力而是要等美国发架完了才剩下的给我们那你要做一个公平的分配嘛"},{"start":7546.685,"end":7565.86,"text":"報告委員 這個要跟委員報告一下我們在這一次的防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的特別預算裡面我們是一個有計畫性的規劃中間我們會有引進很多新興戰力那這些部分我們都希望落地生產落地建立能量但這個能量不是一天可以建得起來的"},{"start":7566.28,"end":7579.137,"text":"所以在這個部分我們除了在特別預算裡面奠定了基礎之外我們也會在後續的年度公務預算裡面去編列讓國內的產業能夠逐漸的成長起來去建立我們國內的量能"},{"start":7580.1,"end":7600.459,"text":"你这个讲得很好也就是说年度预算跟八年每一年这中间的关系的勾迹那你们请提书面报告我们会支持但是并不是成如第一个这个这个冯委员讲的为反对而反对因为你根本没有在执政党跟在野党的"},{"start":7601.64,"end":7625.688,"text":"我們講的黨鞭 召委你根本沒有做溝通而不是進了會場用投票我們沒有機會跟他溝通我問他也講不出來他們哪一個懂細節他誰懂軍售過程誰懂DCS那DCS既然有為什麼不能夠我們的貿易談判代表去抵消我們對美國的貿易順差DCS還包括計轉 工合為什麼都不談"},{"start":7626.528,"end":7646.376,"text":"那既然FMF軍售融資我們已經編了預算我要你貸款但是我可以給你給你東西現在不給了總統特別授權法案是可以給啊但給的是舊裝備啊後續的料配件你要花錢買這些東西執政黨的同仁在本會委員會裡面他根本搞不清楚啊我的建議是拉高溝通成績我們當時"},{"start":7647.176,"end":7647.797,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝各位"},{"start":7676.618,"end":7689.683,"text":"好謝謝目前有收到臨時提案供兩案待會王定宇委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息5分鐘現在接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝召委我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":7710.866,"end":7727.746,"text":"局長午安好 蔡委員長局長在這個我們國安局的這個報告當中展示了美日飛在第一島鏈的一個飛彈部署圖實際上這個已經形成一個針對中共的一個防護網了那也提到"},{"start":7728.939,"end":7745.49,"text":"美軍印太司令所強調的這個巨子型的防禦要在低島鏈來落實那並且在這個戰略報告中也提到這個集體防衛的一個核心概念那我想請教局長就是在這樣的一個戰略的一個"},{"start":7746.571,"end":7760.747,"text":"過想之下是否代表我方跟美軍會有更強化自身在第一島鏈的一個存在那甚至有可能在協防台灣上採取戰略更加的一個清晰有沒有可能"},{"start":7761.568,"end":7783.664,"text":"事實上我們剛剛在專題報告當中也在口報的時候跟大家說明了那從美國的國安戰略來看那確實美國對印太地區的安全非常的關注把它稱為是國際競爭的優先的戰場那特別重點就放在第一島鏈那也特別提到了怎麼樣來嚇阻台海現狀被改變那視為是美國國安戰略裡面非常優先的任務"},{"start":7784.304,"end":7799.189,"text":"那從剛剛的報告內容也是在跟委員們說明美國從跟友盟的這種更緊密的協力合作來進行連演連訓以外也去增加在第一島鏈相關的一個部署來遏制可能中共的海空軍力的擴張"},{"start":7799.969,"end":7828.608,"text":"以及封控必要的海域這大概是發展的趨勢那就台灣來講因為剛好就是在第一島鏈非常關鍵的位置所以台灣也必須要去提升自我的防衛能力展現自我的防衛的意識否則在整個國際友盟對於第一島鏈重視的過程當中假如台灣出現防禦真空的話那大家可能會認為台灣只想搭便車當一個freerider假如有這樣的一個質疑的話那可能台灣的一個安全處境會處在一個比較不利的一個狀態"},{"start":7830.049,"end":7856.237,"text":"好 我們台灣的地理位置確實是在第一島鏈裡面非常重要的那我想再請教局長就是從這份戰略報告的內容來看在第一島鏈的盟友分工合作當中台灣是扮演什麼樣的一個角色那是否還有需要再推進相關的請職交換的機制才能夠符合戰略上的一個期待 有沒有可能"},{"start":7856.617,"end":7877.71,"text":"有 在這部分也跟委員說明一下事實上我們除了這些戰略文件來理解重要的有盟他們的整體的國安或防衛態勢的規劃以外我們也透過各種的戰略溝通以及情報交流來掌握相關的發展趨勢也跟委員說明事實上從今年2025年 今年以來我本人"},{"start":7878.49,"end":7895.607,"text":"我本人已經跟全球有45位的國家情報首長跟副首長召開過近100次的雙邊的正式會談那就是透過這種國際的情報交流的機制來瞭解各國對於目前整個印太安全他們關切的主要重點在哪裡"},{"start":7896.167,"end":7913.048,"text":"以及在共同關切之下怎麼來發展更多緊密的包括戰略上的一個合作以及情報上的一個合作的網絡所以我們確實是有這些網絡的建置好 那這個非常好那也請局長這個部分要持續下去好 那有關這份這個國安戰略所"},{"start":7915.571,"end":7929.78,"text":"這個代表的政治訊息及意涵在輿論上仍然有各種不同的一個解讀那我們還是要做最充分的一個準備扮演好在印太戰略中的一個重要的一個角色以及共同防衛第一島鏈的一個責任"},{"start":7931.341,"end":7956.176,"text":"這部分就請我們國安局持續的關注因為事實上在第一島鏈的防衛當中因為台灣不只承受來自於中共的壓力那中共各種對台的複合式威脅那台灣也是站在第一線承受所以我們也累積了不少的經驗那台灣在面臨比較艱困的國際處境之下國際有對我們這麼的支持那我們能夠回報國際社會民主社群的就是去分享我們相關第一線"},{"start":7956.936,"end":7976.392,"text":"處理這些中共複合式威脅的經驗來提升國際我們共同的一個防禦跟安全的韌性好 那我想就近期這個東海跟西太平洋區域的事件再和局長您做一個討論在國安局的這個報告當中也有提到12月6號的時候中共的這個遼寧艦它的艦載機殲15在沖繩空域兩度用雷達鎖定日本自衛隊的F15戰機"},{"start":7983.437,"end":8007.533,"text":"我們也知道火控雷達鎖定在軍事上往往被視為開火前的一個準備步驟這不僅僅是挑釁 更是準敵對的一個行為有關中共對日本軍機實施雷達鎖定我想請教局長評估這一類型的這種侵擾行為是否會有可能會擦槍走火"},{"start":8008.594,"end":8032.949,"text":"這個的風險 有沒有可能對 事實上確實是在 像委員所提到在12月6號的時候那中共遼寧艦的艦載機殲-15有透過雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那這樣的動作是非常針對性的而且是有挑釁的所以我們可以看到日本的防相小群是在半夜2點鐘召開緊急記者會來譴責跟抗議這樣子的一個危險的行為這大概是第一部分跟委員報告"},{"start":8033.749,"end":8054.941,"text":"那第二部分在這樣的動作之後我們也看到在12月8號美國立刻啟動了美日安保的一個相關合作的一個機制那由美國的華盛頓號航空母艦的編隊跟日本的那個護衛艦來在日本東部的水域進行演習根本報告的是在12月8號美日啟動這樣的一個"},{"start":8057.406,"end":8072.246,"text":"航母編隊的演習之後中共遼寧艦就是在12月8號開始轉向返回它的一個母港所以跟委員說明的是中共當然是透過一些軍事的手段來對日本進行一些軍事的施壓跟脅迫可是在美國"},{"start":8073.988,"end":8099.124,"text":"日本的同盟快速的來啟動相關的一個防衛以及嚇阻的態勢之後那我們看到中國也是沒有希望看到緊張情勢持續的升高而去讓遼寧艦提早結束相關的演訓所以這次遼寧艦出第一島鏈大概只進行了16天的演訓這是歷來最短的過去一般都有20天以上所以大概整體的態勢從這一次的突發事件以及我們觀察美蒙"},{"start":8099.804,"end":8119.143,"text":"快速啟動的一個嚇阻的一個機制那也看到中共也是不希望這種緊張的對峙持續的升高這個態勢跟委員做以上簡單的說明好 那在這個日本發布這個台灣有事說之後那中國這邊 中共一直一連串的相關"},{"start":8119.924,"end":8134.48,"text":"所謂的炮艦外交意圖要施壓日本製造威懾的訊息我想再請教局長你們怎麼解讀中共這次行動的意涵在軍事或是政治上有達到任何的效果嗎"},{"start":8135.151,"end":8162.117,"text":"我覺得可能背後還是單單看中國對日本的施壓背後還是有一個比較大的地緣政治的圖像也就是中國在區域裡面希望成為一個霸權的角色那當然這一次是以所謂日本高市首相有一些涉台的一個言論來當成中國施壓的一個理由但事實上我們整體的判斷是中國除了關切所謂日本對於台海議題的關注以外"},{"start":8162.577,"end":8187.11,"text":"那中國也非常關切日本在推動美日安保的深化那以及日本在推動防衛政策的改革那以及後續在南西諸島軍事部署的這些狀況所以我想跟我們說明的是即使沒有高市的涉台言論中國還是會有找其他的理由來對日本施壓那這也是我們跟國際很多合作友方在交換意見的時候都有發現到這樣的共同的一個觀察"},{"start":8188.01,"end":8212.293,"text":"那另外這個中國跟俄羅斯的這個轟炸機在12月9號進行聯合巡航位置就接近日本的四國顯示中共對日本的軍事壓力持續提升那對於這個中俄轟炸機無預警的進行聯合巡航顯示中俄之間的這個軍事結盟更深化在東北亞的一個空中協同並且在期間更出現首次有兩國的這個"},{"start":8214.795,"end":8233.594,"text":"軍機同時航向東京引起周邊國家的高度警戒我想藉此請教局長中俄是否有可能常態化在日韓周邊的巡航美日韓在東北亞空域有何反制的作為大概中俄在"},{"start":8235.316,"end":8264.231,"text":"西太平洋的一個空中聯巡它是本來就有定期的這樣的一個活動像去年它就進行了有兩次這樣的一個空中聯巡活動不過今年我們注意到的是它空中聯巡的時間有稍微晚一點我們判斷是因為中國抱歉 俄國的戰略空中武力受到了烏克蘭的豬王行動的無人機攻擊有受到影響所以今年的這個例行的空中聯巡有比較晚一點當然這樣子的話顯示的是中俄一起合作"},{"start":8264.631,"end":8292.68,"text":"在挑戰區域的現狀也對日本做施壓所以委員可能有注意到在12月9號的中美聯巡之後12月10號美國立刻跟日本啟動了戰略空中的聯巡由美國從關島派了兩架的B-52H的轟炸機到日本海跟日本的戰鬥機來進行空中聯合演練那跟委員說明的是在日本海的這個美日的空中戰略聯巡跟演練它有它的意涵"},{"start":8293.16,"end":8306.175,"text":"因為日本海這個位置它剛好可以讓俄國的轟炸機要南下的時候會被美日的空中武力來進行阻擋而且在日本海的一個美國的B-52H的戰略轟炸機以它搭載的"},{"start":8309.058,"end":8333.102,"text":"巡弋飛彈的話是可以直接打到北京所以我們的解讀是美日確實跟剛剛一樣他有立刻啟動了一個美日同盟的一個防衛跟嚇阻的機制來讓中俄了解到美日同盟合作緊密度那更何況在12月12號美國跟日本的方向進行了電話的會議那也譴責了中國挑戰區域現狀的狀況以及重申美日同盟的緊密度"},{"start":8333.382,"end":8360.073,"text":"所以這大概是這一次美日同盟跟中俄聯巡我們看到的一些地緣政治的意涵跟委員座以上的說明那另外我想請教局長在這個近期包括中共對我們不斷的侵擾行為的過程當中我們是否有掌握到在這期間俄國他在台海有事的這個情境之下他們有可能會扮演是什麼樣的角色"},{"start":8360.733,"end":8382.391,"text":"對 這部分我們有在注意那也是跟國際情報交流的一個非常重要的議題就是在台海有事的情境之下俄國可能扮演什麼樣的角色那第一部分可能是有涉及到的一些是軍事裝備的一個協助跟提供後勤對 後勤軍事裝備的協助跟提供那這部分可能是要注意的"},{"start":8382.751,"end":8401.358,"text":"那另外一部分可能也要注意的是俄國會不會在台海周邊海空域以外的西太平洋或東亞的其他地區會有其他的一些俄國他自己的一些軍事的巡弋的活動來增加大家對於這個印太地區"},{"start":8402.358,"end":8428.055,"text":"的情境的複雜度來讓美國的友盟在應處相關的狀況可能會面臨到比較複雜的狀況所以大概有從軍事或戰略面俄國可以發揮一些角色的情境那我們有在做一些推演好 那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長在本週一中國宣布制裁前日本自衛隊統合幕僚長也就是擔任我國行政院政務顧問的這個閻齊茂將軍"},{"start":8433.119,"end":8457.3,"text":"聲稱他與這個台獨分裂的勢力有這個勾連干涉中國內政因此採取多項的反制措施我們看到這個外交部已經對於中國的這樣的一個跨境鎮壓表達嚴正關切那我想請教局長就是中共的是否會有可能針對挺台的相關國際友人特別在美日非之間擬定擴大制裁的一個名單有沒有可能"},{"start":8458.048,"end":8476.198,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下 這大概是中共慣用的手法他會透過這種所謂的境外跨境的一個施壓或這種威脅來針對他所謂的台獨人士或是友台的人士來進行這種所謂的法律戰 心理戰跟輿論戰的一個操作"},{"start":8477.599,"end":8505.154,"text":"一般我們從過去的案例來看它這樣的操作常常會造成一些反效果而且能夠達到只有象徵性的意義沒有實質意義因為這些友台人士他們並不在乎他們在中國不能夠入境或是有什麼資產會被凍結這大概第一部分第二部分的一個反效果是反倒會造成更多的國際友盟他們去提升友台的聲量表達對台灣進一步的支持而不會在中國的壓力之下有任何的讓步"},{"start":8506.054,"end":8532.448,"text":"第三部分很多國際友盟他們會串聯起來更進一步的來批評中共在人權或是台海議題的挑釁我跟委員舉個例子在2021年中國就是對歐洲議會的議員進行了很多的制裁但是在制裁之後我們可以發現到當時的歐洲議員對台灣更加的一個支持跟更加友好甚至也拒絕去批准中國跟歐盟正在洽談的"},{"start":8534.189,"end":8546.494,"text":"經貿投資協定那反倒讓中國承受了一些後座力所以我想跟委員說明的是中國這種操作大概只有一些象徵的意義沒有實質意義而且會造成一些反效果好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員提問 謝謝"},{"start":8551.621,"end":8567.373,"text":"好 謝謝我們先修正宣告待會兒王定宇委員質詢結束以後我們先處理臨時提案之後林楚音委員質詢結束以後我們再休息我們現在請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":8580.158,"end":8584.701,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請應該是先請顧部長 請顧部長不好意思 第一張是請局長 不好意思請局長 先請蔡局長"},{"start":8598.703,"end":8617.265,"text":"好 謝謝 陳委員長好 局長好那這個呢一開始還是要說就是因為這個今天大家在下面也是等待了一陣子今天這個時間真的是拉得有點比較長我個人是喜歡手實但我不知道大家每一個人大家的風格會不太一樣"},{"start":8618.166,"end":8633.297,"text":"那但是我要先講一件事情就是剛剛陳永康委員有提到這個國防的這一個1.25兆的預算這個程序委員會那我在這邊還是要導正一下視聽就是說呢過去八年民進黨也沒有在程序委員會檔案"},{"start":8634.958,"end":8650.172,"text":"報告事項從來不會檔案 為什麼因為程序委員會是要審查比如說一個法案有沒有記得寫修法理由有沒有15個委員簽名就是他看刑事要件刑事要件完了程序委員過了一讀 然後來這個委員會"},{"start":8652.174,"end":8677.325,"text":"如果按照剛剛前面幾位委員說這一個8年1.25兆裡面應該怎樣 應該怎樣要多多溝通那就應該趕快進來這個裡面國防外交委員會來溝通 對不對所以我覺得用這樣的一個方式去正當化現在在程序委員會跟院會一讀的時候在那邊檔案我覺得是完全不正當的我覺得還是要特別說明這件事情這個絕對是一個不正確的事"},{"start":8677.965,"end":8692.979,"text":"這也跟我今天質詢的內容有關是因為不管是從這一個我們這個美國的國防授權法案又或者說今天中國的網路安全法其實國安現在是有非常非常多的挑戰而這些挑戰國防跟國安現在幾乎是要融為一體"},{"start":8693.88,"end":8714.291,"text":"所以在這邊第一個就是我要提到這個網路安全法剛剛其實我聽到前面的委員也有提到很多資安的問題我也要在這邊先講一下資安的問題有很多層面第一個它有可能是駭客攻擊第二個它有可能就是我們講的insider threat那insider threat又有分成很多有些可能它是工程師他本來就在裡面工作這也是insider threat"},{"start":8714.651,"end":8731.632,"text":"它也有可能是外面的人進來插一個USB這個也是insider threat所以每一種它要防護的方式不一樣而有一些是你的資安的系統要加強那是妨害的有一些你是在前面的門口要做安全檢核的有一些是工程師你要去做他背景調查的這幾個都是不一樣的事情"},{"start":8732.673,"end":8753.269,"text":"所以今天因為人大現在通過這一個中國人大通過這個網路安全法它裡面有提到網路安全堅持中國共產黨的領導這一個推進網路強國建設我比較覺得有特別的是77條這一邊因為這個局長應該也很清楚就是我之前被說要被中國通緝他想要用這個長臂管轄"},{"start":8754.15,"end":8778.917,"text":"那以往大家很熟知的案件是這個李明哲的案件李明哲那時候是在微信上面寫了一篇說中國如何民主化結果被說是違反中國的法律但他仍在台灣他台灣寫因為他寫在微信上他說微信是中國的伺服器所以到之後李明哲在這個旅行的時候他就把他帶走說你違反我們這個中國的法律等等之類的那如果按照這個現在修正後的這個77條他賦予中國對境外"},{"start":8781.858,"end":8809.093,"text":"處理這一個法律的這個能力包含了這個國家安全法 數據安全法反間諜法 對外關係法他要把它整合成一套體系這個有可能是這個法律戰的一個前哨戰因為它等於說我現在就是要把它整合在一起這跟2015年這個習近平軍改把他們網路的訊息部隊全部先把它找到這個戰略支援部其實很類似從那時候開始2016台灣就超多的不管是駭客攻擊 假消息的攻擊"},{"start":8809.793,"end":8836.647,"text":"所以現在我們對於這個網路安全法的生效這個國安局大概有什麼樣的一個對應的方案對 我想大概分幾點跟委員說明第一個就是說在國際的網路安全的相關的一個侵害裡面中國一直是對外發動侵害最主要的來源那這也是我們在跟很多國際理念相近國家在進行一些國安情報的資安討論的過程當中大家都一起關注到的一個重要議題"},{"start":8837.327,"end":8860.741,"text":"而且中國的一個治安對外發動侵害它有不同的政府部會在透過他們所配合的這些私人機構或協力組織在發動相關的侵害包括可能委員熟知的國安部 公安部 軍方都有它的系統所以我要第一個說明的是中國是我們現在國際網安領域裡面大家最關注的一個發動網侵網害最主要的來源"},{"start":8861.301,"end":8885.147,"text":"第二個部分是有關於中國去通過所謂的網路安全法我記得跟委員針對這個問題有討論過也就是說我們民主國家在討論網路安全法案的時候比較重視的是對於民眾各自的維護包括像歐洲的GDPR相關的法案但中國的法案它是不斷地在授權它的政府可以有更大的權益取得更多的對 來控制相關的一些網路的活動"},{"start":8886.147,"end":8908.523,"text":"那所以可能後續我們會繼續來注意一下這個網路安全法通過之後他會不會再對外發動相關的侵害或是更有一個法律戰的理由來對中共所認為對中國網路安全造成威脅影響的個人或團體來發動所謂他要強調的境外的一個施壓或跨境的一個管轄那這樣的發展趨勢我們會繼續來注意"},{"start":8910.044,"end":8936.739,"text":"對 因為我現在發現就是說他們對於比如說可能是日本的國民對於韓國的國民一樣也可以做這件事就變成說因為今天以中國的角度來講他把這個整合以後他的法律戰是無差別的當然台灣是最重要的戰場因為他想要侵略台灣他想要統一台灣那是他的語詞所以但是他其實這個所適用的這個對象其實非常的廣泛所以剛剛局長提到很重要的一點就是我們在跟國外討論這件事情的時候以往我們當然是"},{"start":8937.699,"end":8963.27,"text":"基本的情報交換這個一定會比如說還有像假消息相關的比如說他們在這個國家有什麼假消息這個彼此情資單位都已經會討論但法律戰這個部分等於是又等於要加一個Layer上去就變成說他有時候可能他挑戰的不是我們中華民國的國民他可能挑戰的是日本的可能是韓國的他們的應對方案跟我們的應對方案如果在情報上有Sync的時候這個時候就會變得特別重要"},{"start":8963.71,"end":8977.13,"text":"所以剛剛局長有特別提到這一點所以這也是就是我在後面可能本來剛剛質詢要問到這個已經先回答到了那另外我是這個主席不好意思我要請顧部長就是 謝謝請國防部顧部長"},{"start":8980.677,"end":9007.852,"text":"這我也好部長好那現在因為前陣子有這一個這個中俄軍機它有這個繞日那我用這個圖來稍微說明一下就是第一個他們在日本外海做了很多這種鎖定 照的這些動作台灣當然演練多然後在這個南海在菲律賓那邊做了很多衝撞是比較早之前但是他們有集結兵力然後也有射炮彈這個都發生在12月"},{"start":9008.712,"end":9030.813,"text":"所以就是說這個整個這一個12月其實以這個情勢來講說真的應該是非常的動盪而且很明顯的就不是只有針對台灣他幾乎是在整個第一島鏈都在做這些事情那美國當然相對應的不管是從國防授權從豪豬等等之類的這些法案不管是在眾議院的也有在參議院的通過這個對我們來講當然是重要的支持"},{"start":9033.215,"end":9056.789,"text":"但是現在很麻煩的地方就是在於說如果我們的軍購現在就是卡在那邊我們的總預算第一個沒省嘛我們的新興計畫當然是不能做然後再來呢我們的八年1.25兆這一些事情對於本來他們可能跟台灣想說台灣現在是需要軍力的全世界的軍力都在增加當中結果如果我們今天在預算沒有辦法通過之下"},{"start":9057.389,"end":9079.962,"text":"很多國外的廠商他應該會去尋求其他的國家了因為每一個國家現在都有這個需求所以我現在擔心的事情是說如果我們今天有這一個稍微有一個空窗期半年甚至是一年這個東西沒有辦法持續之後等到我們之後再跟對方想說我們需要武器我們需要新的系統的整合我跟你講那個工程人員可能都到別的國家因為別的國家採購已經結束了"},{"start":9081.443,"end":9099.275,"text":"我們在潛艦就會遇到這樣的問題潛艦我們算是起步得非常早但是我們要把所有的技術人員都叫來然後在同一個時間大家一起整合系統這個是很難約時間的所以現在我想請部長講一下就是說如果我們現在一直卡在這邊沒有辦法持續下去的話會有什麼樣的問題我想美國會對於我們台灣有沒有自我防衛能力的這個決心"},{"start":9110.568,"end":9117.414,"text":"這個信心會產生動搖這個如果以從美國剛發布國家安全戰略來講"},{"start":9119.248,"end":9146.365,"text":"強烈的建議要求盟友要共同分擔這個責任所以我們看到日本就是9兆日圓的這樣子一個有史以來新高的預算當然更不用提到說還有其他的這些前進部署相關的作為來形成一個嚇阻的力量其他我們也看到韓國還有菲律賓甚至澳洲有紐西蘭等等大家都在這個"},{"start":9148.507,"end":9167.799,"text":"這些區域周邊的國家都已經體認到這個中國的軍事威脅已經形成不穩定的一個因素所以我覺得我們必須真的要通過這樣的一個特別預算我們如果不通過這樣的一個特別預算的話我想美國會認為"},{"start":9171.702,"end":9189.208,"text":"我們到底有沒有要跟美國一起包括還有所有印太區域的國家共同來產生一個聚子的能力然後讓這個戰爭不發生對 因為我覺得國際安全戰略剛剛前面有提到就是因為媒體會報導什麼台灣被提到幾次啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":9189.608,"end":9207.61,"text":"但其實裡面最關鍵的地方不只是說台灣被提到幾次裡面最關鍵的地方是台灣對他們來講已經不是一個保護對象那麼簡單而是必須要一起來承擔整個印太安全主要的一個player如果我們要一起承擔照理說對方把我們納入盟友要一起承擔這本來是好事"},{"start":9208.591,"end":9237.831,"text":"結果當我們要一起承擔的時候結果我們國內沒有辦法達成共識我們的預算沒有辦法通過那我們就沒有辦法做到像我們這張圖上面整理的他說台灣應該要具備核心的能力我們要有嚴抗的能力我們要能夠拒止對方的行動這些事情如果做不到的話這個其實說真的不要說是關稅那麼簡單那個比較前期的事情光是之後他對於到底要跟誰合作他今天到底必須要部署在哪裡然後他的後勤到底在哪裡這些都會影響到這些其他國家的決定"},{"start":9238.411,"end":9252.13,"text":"所以當然我們在這邊如果今天錢有沒有花在刀口上到底有沒有買到應該有的設備系統整合到底整合得如何這個是我們立法委員關心的我們也要持續監督的但前提是這個東西要進到委員會我們才有辦法討論"},{"start":9253.692,"end":9269.271,"text":"我們才有辦法持續下去所以這件事情我們還是會持續的跟社會發聲那也請國防部能夠有採取一些比較新興的措施我前幾天也有跟國防部在討論讓這些聲音能夠傳遞到人民的耳中因為人民知道這件事情"},{"start":9270.407,"end":9288.555,"text":"政治人物才有壓力政治人物才有辦法往前推進如果今天人民都對這件事情無法了解的話我們很多政治人物就在玩資訊落差然後故意用一些錯誤的數字來比較啊那這樣的話國防就沒有辦法繼續往前進進所以這邊呢我們就在一起共同努力因為時間到了謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":9307.581,"end":9312.565,"text":"請國安部長跟國安局長請部長以及蔡局長兩位辛苦了"},{"start":9320.919,"end":9344.264,"text":"首先我提問的是現在在根據今天國安局的報告美國的最新版的NSS國家戰略國家安全戰略他在第一島鏈裡面的安全版圖以及他的安全的補強的方式呢有做了一些說明台灣在裡面的位置那印太司令帕帕羅呢也多次的發表這樣的談話"},{"start":9346.447,"end":9366.717,"text":"另外我還整理了最近有兩份報告一個是2025年的National Security Strategy就是NSS這是川普的最新版另外一個是紐約時報跟英國的報紙揭露的叫做優勢報告來自五角大廈的所以一個是來自於媒體這兩份報告"},{"start":9368.973,"end":9385.308,"text":"overmatch brief這一個所謂的優勢報告很多人看到這個台灣完蛋了美國打不贏中國了它裡面有提到就是說美國的軍事武器雖然比較精良那比較昂貴面對中國已經預制好"},{"start":9385.908,"end":9411.907,"text":"大量的彈藥 飛彈還有一些無人機廉價可複製的他們認為美國他用的是美國會介入當中國武力犯台可是介入的時候有可能會付出代價甚至於戰敗這一個如果來自於五角大廈我覺得就是美國人寫的報告跟中國人寫的報告有點不一樣中國人的報告是用來吹牛的美國的報告呢要嘛就是要檢討問題要不然就是要預算的"},{"start":9412.407,"end":9436.496,"text":"這是要跟美國國會要錢的一份報告就是我不行了 我要被打敗了趕快多給我一點預算嘛但是這個overmatch brief應該跟NSS搭配變成一個Q&A因為在川普的國家安全戰略裡面有針對這個提出解答他認為台灣是第一島鏈的關鍵節點屬於印太防衛的核心這個就所謂的把台灣納入美國安全版圖"},{"start":9437.216,"end":9463.784,"text":"第二個半導體跟科技的供應鏈台灣成為美國很重要的關鍵夥伴第三個維持台海和平印太穩定必要條件那美國反對片面改變那另外就提到了台灣要發展他講台灣應該要提升自己的防衛力量台灣應該要發展大量低廉的高精準的不推測戰力美國也應該要這樣做所以台美應該合作一起來發展無人機跟這些系統"},{"start":9465.224,"end":9476.253,"text":"包含分散部署等等所以可以把NSS當作answerovermatch brief當作提問或者要預算的文書我不知道這樣詮釋先請問蔡局長我這樣詮釋對不對"},{"start":9478.483,"end":9505.821,"text":"尊重委員的一些看法因為美國媒體所揭露的是一些片段的資訊我們比較不適合做一個全面的評估第二個我想委員也已經很正確的指出來這種的資訊會被對外釋放它可能背後是有一些媒體訊息的操作刻意來凸顯到美國可能在哪一部分還要再做進一步的加強但是NSS是一個美國的國家安全戰略其實是每一任總統都會提出來的"},{"start":9506.001,"end":9511.632,"text":"所以我接下來要先請問顧立雄部長我為什麼剛才花了點時間把這兩份報告講了一下"},{"start":9512.83,"end":9537.339,"text":"那中國的威脅持續升高美國的國家安全戰略裡面也提出解決的方法方法其中有一個就台灣或者各盟友應該提升自我防衛的意志跟投資所以日本 韓國 澳洲 菲律賓大家都在加大對自我安全的重視跟預算的投入所以我第一個問題請教顧立雄部長"},{"start":9538.599,"end":9563.331,"text":"那在威脅升高的狀況下我們的國防年度預算四個月了還沒付尾加上我們的八年期每年平均一千五百億的1.25兆的國防特別預算條例連審查都不能審查對於國防跟國安會造成什麼樣實質的影響我先講實質的影響國安會擔心這錢沒得來那我們的安全是不是有破了一個洞那請教顧部長"},{"start":9564.856,"end":9588.047,"text":"我想剛剛因為委員提到那個美國的國家安全戰略我還是從這個角度出發因為美國認為印太跟台灣都是最關鍵的一個戰略組織因為他很明顯的擺出來說印太的和平穩定是美國的一個核心利益而台灣位在這一個核心利益中的一個核心位置所以他"},{"start":9588.7,"end":9614.445,"text":"美國要建立一個能夠拒止侵略的一個軍事力量但是美國不能也不應該單獨承擔這樣子他的概念是美國領導盟友分攤大概這樣子而他重視的安全他為什麼要做這個安全網絡他在安全網絡版圖裡面是有把台灣放在裡面的所以台灣是美國會持續維持這樣的關鍵的一個軍事能力但是"},{"start":9615.543,"end":9643.906,"text":"美國認為台灣在內的盟友必須成為這個巨子體系的一部分而不是一個被保護的對象所以我把我問題簡單講就兩大題第一個這些國防預算不審查特別預算就連付委都不能付委對我們國家安全的實質的影響是什麼第二個對於盟友的影響是什麼然後就兩位我們國安層級非常重要的兩位部長級的"},{"start":9645.799,"end":9663.579,"text":"就盟友就我們的國防預算跟我們特別條例一直不能覆違重要的盟友有什麼樣的反應這三題是不是先請布部長接下來請蔡局長我想簡單回答就是說我們是在這個第一島鏈全員的一個重要關鍵位置所以我們當然成為一個"},{"start":9665.151,"end":9684.621,"text":"巨子體系裡面一個最重要的一個部分那問題就是我們不能成為破口我們不能成為破口所以我們一定要不斷的強化自我防衛能力所以預算沒有通過我們會有成為破口的風險我這樣詮釋對嗎我想委員的這個指教是我們是認同"},{"start":9685.842,"end":9711.304,"text":"好 所以對國防的實質或國家安全的實質影響我們有可能會成為破口因為中國每年增加7%2025年到8兆那我剛才第二個問題是對於國際盟友會不會產生什麼衝擊影響以美國日本為例我想美國已經很明白的表示我們就是要成為巨子體系一部分所以我們如果特別預算沒有通過的話"},{"start":9712.605,"end":9741.921,"text":"美國對我們有沒有自我衝擊的能力跟決心當然會進而產生質疑這個質疑會導致什麼結果我們國防部立場應該是說我們不希望這個對這樣的一個質疑會發生所以我們還是懇切的期待我們的這一個不管是年度預算或者是我們的國防特別預算都能夠跟美國以及所有印太區域國家這樣子的一個"},{"start":9742.917,"end":9751.741,"text":"增加國防預算這樣子的一個節奏是同行的那你有收到來自於重要盟友的關切嗎我想美國"},{"start":9754.676,"end":9774.822,"text":"在台的這個鼓勵人處長他是公開講我想他已經一再的表達對這部分的一個關切對我們提升自我防衛能力的決心他希望朝野共同一致所以他代表是美國政府那除了他有沒有另外來自華府的直接的關切你不方便講我尊重"},{"start":9775.422,"end":9802.98,"text":"我想我們之所以會提出這樣的一個特別預算我們也不是一時興起的所以我們都會跟美國進行溝通所以我們也都有取得美國DSEA的一些初步報價的這些相關的資料然後再加上我們有一些委資案跟我們認為必須要透過商購來強化我們自我防衛能力才提出這樣的一個特別預算所以這個預算的編列是有所本不是空白的授權那我請教蔡民營局長我剛才一樣三個問題"},{"start":9804.526,"end":9824.328,"text":"這些國防年度預算特別條例特別預算一直不能負為審查對我們國家安全體系會產生什麼實質的影響第二個對於我們盟友傳遞出的訊息會有什麼實質的影響第三個我們有沒有接收到來自於盟友的關切concern"},{"start":9825.266,"end":9854.154,"text":"對 我想基本上美國因為重視印太地區認為它是一個國際競爭的優先戰場那也鼓勵盟友必須要加強相關的一個軍事的投資以便在西太平的第一島鏈可以形成一個盟友們之間的共同防禦的一個網絡跟架構那假如台灣在過程當中出現了防禦上的漏洞或是沒有展現自我防衛決心的話那當然其他國家會質疑台灣變成是一個搭便車而不是一個夥伴的一個概念"},{"start":9854.454,"end":9876.403,"text":"那你就沒有辦法融入這個區域這是國際盟友的可能會傳遞這樣的錯誤訊息對那對於我們實質的國家安全有沒有造成什麼當然會有傷害你假如說變成沒有辦法得到國際友盟的信任的話那當然其他國家要實質或是象徵性的來協助或聲援台灣他的力道就會減弱那你有接收到盟友直接的關切嗎"},{"start":9877.183,"end":9888.236,"text":"因為我們還在規劃相關預算的一個過程當中那當然也是希望這一部分假如立法院這邊有更實質的支持的話那會讓國際友們比較放心一點"},{"start":9889.878,"end":9908.469,"text":"我繼續救救兩位啦 該講安全網絡我們是盾嘛 那現在看一下毛最近俄羅斯在第一島鏈周邊活動的頻率有增加尤其最近三個月當然他一方面是要拉攏中國來順遂他在烏克蘭的侵略啦那我有整理一下他出現的一個情形"},{"start":9909.589,"end":9938.12,"text":"外交部跟國安局有沒有情資言悉有關俄羅斯在未來中國可能武力犯台的情形下會扮演什麼樣的角色是不是先請局長先說有 這部分剛剛陳俊宇委員也在提問那我們有提到說在跟國際上做一些情資交換或情勢研判的時候確實有在關注中俄可能軍事上的合作那一個部分可能是一些軍品項目後勤俄國可能會支援中國"},{"start":9938.78,"end":9965.1,"text":"那第二部分是可能假如說是在台海有事的時候俄國會像委員在畫面上所提到的他會在區域裡面的其他的點來形成一些挑釁的動作以便來複雜化 分散化他可以扮演牽制的角色對 他可以有一個牽制制衡的一個角色那這部分也是我們在關注的那部長呢 國防部長這邊你們有沒有關注到俄羅斯在我們台海周邊或者在第一島鏈的活動那他未來在你們的想定裡面他的角色是什麼"},{"start":9965.68,"end":9991.547,"text":"我想這一次中俄的一個聯合巡航特別是在高斯早苗首相發表這個相關的言論之後中國非常的不滿意之後呢除了中國有一些演習的一些活動之外呢中俄的這樣的一個協作所帶來的一個訊息是相當的明確的也就是他們會在這個地方相互為"},{"start":9992.888,"end":10012.303,"text":"對於這個地區產生那他可能扮演什麼角色呢我想剛剛局長已經說明得相當的清楚了我想這樣子的一個協作的關係我們都可以看起來第一個他可能是養工牽制的角色另外一個可能是技術裝備或者戰技實戰訓練提供的角色"},{"start":10016.826,"end":10033.685,"text":"所以在這裡面我就建議國安局去評估看看我們有哪些商用技術流入到俄羅斯將來會轉過來變成對著我們的矛頭這個要提早因應因為他們在合作已經看得到了我們在工業鏈上因為現在軍民通的東西那個規則地還越來越大"},{"start":10034.386,"end":10057.975,"text":"以前軍品商用品分得很清楚但現在很多這個東西有重疊我覺得應該要及早建立一個表該攔住就要攔住啦那我跟主席借最後一分鐘只有一個問題越南配合第七艦隊跟美國印太司令部在我們台海進行所謂的自由航行穿越這個很新喔因為我印象中越南的軍艦穿越大概至少只有我記憶所及是第一次"},{"start":10058.815,"end":10079.978,"text":"那他們的外交部也出來證實說對我們有因為自由航行是由美國領導的來所謂的公海的一個活動台海公海南海公海這個對區域的和平穩定國際秩序的維持對台灣坦白講是有利的我簡單一個問題越方或美方我們第一個事情有沒有掌握有沒有接獲通知是不是先請教局長"},{"start":10081.371,"end":10110.211,"text":"這部分我們跟國防部這邊還有我們其他的國安情報機關對於周邊的共建或外建的活動我們都充分的溝通跟掌握他要穿越我們第一時間在事前有沒有接受到不管是美方或者越方的直接的通知這部分可能比較不適合這樣公開的討論因為涉及到國際的合作我尊重這個不適合討論的話我是認為這是一個就回到我第一題講的NSS那一個區域安全網絡那這個安全網絡越多"},{"start":10111.011,"end":10116.617,"text":"越扎實對戰略關鍵核心的台灣黨就越安全好 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席好 謝謝我們現在先處理臨時提案共兩案請議事人員宣讀第一案第一案鑒於近期福茂國際室內裝修有限公司得標國防部購置之還少更"},{"start":10135.305,"end":10163.627,"text":"而DX猛炸药类火药原料另在联合国法规及国际法规框架下为防止恐怖组织及防范此类高爆炸跨境风险对于此类高爆炸药买卖运输有严格限制及规定为避免此类所采购火药原料与运输过程中发生不可预期之高风险事件妨害国家名誉及安全确保如期如值运交远要求国防部对于高"},{"start":10164.187,"end":10171.544,"text":"高負風險原料採購每批貨於原產地起運前應新依據聯合國危險貨物運輸建議書"},{"start":10174.194,"end":10201.978,"text":"國際海事組織IMO之國際海運危險貨物規則及經濟部警政署等國內特許管制等相關法規完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸申報計劃文件並火炸藥檢驗效能之第三方公證單位檢驗報告同列為交貨因隨附合格文件之一提案人委員馬文君 連署人委員陳永康徐巧欣等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":10204.042,"end":10226.519,"text":"好 请问国防部有没有对提案内容有意见在文字修正部分有建议在第二段的第二行原文字为应先依据联合国国际海事组织之国际海运危险货物规则建议修正为应先依据国际海运危险货物相关规范以及第四行的"},{"start":10227.259,"end":10237.943,"text":"原文字是完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸建議修正為要求廠商完成於原產地至本案履約地點之運輸請委員知道以上文字修正同意其他委員請問在場委員有其他意見沒有那我們修正通過"},{"start":10257.455,"end":10269.555,"text":"接下來請議事人員宣讀第二案第二案鑒於近期服貿國際室內裝修有限公司得標國防部購置之海嫂跟兒爹兒子猛炸藥類火藥原料"},{"start":10271.277,"end":10297.276,"text":"考量本招標案另一律定後續金額上限為新台幣八億兩千四百六十七萬元之擴充條款將採限制性招標洽源的廠員洽源得標廠商辦理採購為避免後續造成不良事件嚴肅相關採購紀律原要求國防部對於此類後續擴充所採購而DX海嫂根汁每公斤單價不得高於原案採購編號"},{"start":10300.098,"end":10305.022,"text":"好 國防部有委員好 有文字修正的建議在第三行原文字是將採限制性的招標建議修正為得採限制性招標 請委員知道"},{"start":10325.866,"end":10332.629,"text":"好 請問其他委員有沒有意見沒有 好 同意修正通過謝謝好 那我們兩個提案我們按照修正通過現在請林土英委員上台質詢謝謝"},{"start":10361.799,"end":10386.514,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員早局長好今天我們當然是針對台海周邊包括我們的整個軍事的衝突來做分析但是我想有關於國防的部分現場當然有國防部以及我們這些將領在做維護"},{"start":10388.115,"end":10403.446,"text":"但是我個人比較關注的還是對於我們台灣所有的國民所面對的其他另外一種在心理上面的安全性的部分來跟您就教我知道在這之前包括我們在"},{"start":10404.947,"end":10425.587,"text":"國防外交委員會也通過了就是有關於沈博洋委員受到中國以這種所謂長臂管轄的方式來限制他甚至於讓他在出國的時候感到壓力那麼我們也知道這個蕭美琴副總統在捷克的時候也曾經遭到中國的跟監那麼根據現在一個最新的報導指出"},{"start":10427.168,"end":10441.176,"text":"在中國的所謂天網籠罩台日嗎那麼就是說現在國台辦利用所謂學者或者是研究等等放置了一些所謂相關的情報人員在他們的駐外館那麼從國台辦的人派到這個他們中國的外館然後對台商"},{"start":10448.78,"end":10464.853,"text":"留學生以及我們的僑民甚至於觀光客來做所謂的監控甚至於這樣的長臂管轄會造成一些騷擾那麼這篇報導的內容是不是屬實而國安局是不是真的有掌握這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10466.506,"end":10490.467,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下那中共他在駐外管處他有時候確實會部署一些國台辦系統或處理涉台事務的相關的人員到駐外管處去那以委員剛剛所提到的這個特定的國家來講我們長期在注意至少有兩名到四名這樣子的工作背景的一個人員那所謂這樣的特定的國家而且有中國的這個駐外管員監控我們的"},{"start":10493.45,"end":10509.971,"text":"國民不是特定的像我剛剛提到的都是政治人物喔只是一般的國民這樣的國家有幾個甚至於可不可以講出來到底有哪些國家這個可能沒有辦法全部把它講出來啦會變成是我們到底掌握的相關的狀況就會被對岸了解"},{"start":10510.732,"end":10536.072,"text":"不過跟委員特別強調的是委員的關注應該是在於說中共這些派駐海外的涉台人員會不會有對我們的僑界進行一些騷擾、分化的活動或是對於我們跟駐地國政府一些官方、非官方的往來會進行一些相關的動作這部分我們會注意另外也跟委員說明的是我們跟駐地國的相關單位也都有親自的交流"},{"start":10537.133,"end":10550.943,"text":"所以言下之意就是說因為當不只是政治人物而包括台商 留學生甚至於台灣的觀光客到某些特定的國家的時候需不需要擔心他們的安危我想其實對於一般民眾來講他所擔憂的是這個部分"},{"start":10554.344,"end":10581.209,"text":"安全的部分我覺得應該還好啦主要是因為這些我們所謂的特定國家基本上有很多都是民主法治的國家那假如中共的人員在當地有一些違法的動作的話那當然當地的警政或相關的治安機構也不容許中共的駐外人員違反一般駐外人員的一個相關的一個規範來做這樣的一個威脅或脅迫我指的是人身安全的那第二個假如中國要透過的所謂"},{"start":10582.23,"end":10598.969,"text":"這種跨境管轄包括委員提到的對沈博洋委員這種要發布所謂的紅色的通緝令的話那在執行上事實上也不容易因為Interpol裡面它本來就有一個法律專家小組會針對各國所提出的這些通報進行相關的審查"},{"start":10599.81,"end":10619.254,"text":"而怎麼樣來避免不同的國家利用這種通報來打壓國內的異議人士一直是法律專家審查小組的審查重點那我們也有透過相關管道來了解那中國有沒有在Interpol的系統當中去做這樣的小動作那有的話我們的友好國家相關的對口都會跟我們提出相關的警示那我們會做"},{"start":10619.914,"end":10637.56,"text":"因為在這一篇報導當中有特別提到點出了曼谷也就是泰國言下之意就是提到說有一些東南亞國家真的跟中國的關係比較好的時候那麼協助中國做這種所謂的長臂管轄或是跨境鎮壓的機會要來得比較高那麼真的是如此嗎"},{"start":10638.581,"end":10653.403,"text":"有一些確實要注意這個部分也有跟相關業管單位這主要是外交部來看這個部分怎麼樣來跟國文做一個示警那這部分還在內部作業那假如有比較清楚的一個規劃可能到時候再跟委員做一些報告"},{"start":10653.663,"end":10667.042,"text":"好另外一個就是我不知道國安局最近有沒有注意到一個狀況那就是過去我們在講錯假訊息但是如果說現在是不是研發出另外一種新的模式叫做惡意訊息"},{"start":10669.365,"end":10679.474,"text":"最近我看到網路上非常多就是說以現有的事實來做惡意的包裝比如說像現在我舉例的這個是一個我們的交通的罰則啦但是這個罰則法定在那裡但是其實幾乎我們所有的交通警察沒有來執行過就是你閃綠燈的時候如果你惡意的去闖這個馬路其實是罰500塊"},{"start":10695.248,"end":10708.34,"text":"但是其實法定在那裡我必須講這個法還是立法院立的法但是一般的警察單位沒有特別去執行但是現在突然間在網路上在社群媒體上流竄有這樣的訊息而且說賴清德"},{"start":10711.422,"end":10726.756,"text":"為了要連任總統所以怎麼樣怎麼樣這個就是一種現在被稱為另外的一種所謂惡意訊息要帶風向的傳播那麼這個算不算是另外一種進階版的灰色作戰那麼國安局有注意到這個狀況嗎因為這個訊息喔它是這樣它在法規上確實存在"},{"start":10732.521,"end":10752.036,"text":"但是呢他想要引發的是恐慌所以當你去跟社群平台檢舉的時候他無法下架就像現在很多包括我個人在內有許多的這種所謂不雅的照的AI的影片當我個人本人去檢舉的時候他跟我說委員這個只是用了你的臉"},{"start":10753.837,"end":10781.253,"text":"那其他的部分不是你的時候我們其實要經過一些審核所以這種的惡意訊息現在開始進行流竄的時候請問國安局有沒有注意到這個狀況那這個狀況如果身為這個國安上面會引發民眾的不安的時候尤其是這個是引發的是民眾對於這樣的惡意訊息感到不安的時候又帶有一點爭執實性又無法在社群平台做處理的時候國安局是不是有注意到"},{"start":10782.673,"end":10797.96,"text":"跟委員說明一下這部分的狀況我們有注意到以前在委員會的討論當中有跟委員們做過報告網路上的爭議訊息非常的多但是由本局來出面處理的我們大概會聚焦在比較有涉及到國安層次的爭議訊息"},{"start":10798.98,"end":10818.696,"text":"這包括到污衊元首或是威脅要傷害元首或是相關的正義訊息在傳承錯假的戰爭資訊造成民眾恐慌或是在疫病重大災難的時候去錯假訊息的散佈去造成一些動盪這部分我們會介入委員剛剛講到的這個我們會注意的原因是它確實你要去"},{"start":10819.577,"end":10844.757,"text":"通報到司法警察機關來要求平台業者下架那個法律要件他變得是不太充足因為你要請平台業者下架或是要去請平台業者提供我們司法警察機關相關的IP位置跟使用者的身份的話我們必須要有法律的依據那委員局的例子他大概就是在散佈他的一些想法故意用到總統的名稱來吸引大家的注意他又還沒有到污衊"},{"start":10845.518,"end":10864.467,"text":"但是又有點在做一些渲染所以這樣的樣態我們會持續注意那也會透過我們跟平台業者也有一些溝通管道來把這些新的樣態跟平台業者來做說明那尤其明年又有國內的大型選舉假如沒有事先有個機制的話我們也很擔心到時候一個案子一個案子被動來處理的話我們的整個國安情報機關這個網絡我們承受的業務壓力會很大那也謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":10870.99,"end":10895.967,"text":"好因為我特別提到的是因為現在沒有選舉所以他當然就把這個目標鎖定在我們的總統也是我們國家的元首但是就如你所說接下來選舉來的時候這樣的方法也可以如法炮製那麼這個部分他就會影響到選舉的公平性這樣的做法我必須講雖然說我自己是民進黨立法委員但是在地方政府當中也有很多非"},{"start":10896.707,"end":10916.997,"text":"民進黨籍其實任何黨籍的這個所謂的地方行政首長也可以用這個方法來做如法炮製但是我個人所關注的是說這個一旦這樣的方法下去之後他會影響到的是我們整體國家內部的安定性那麼如果他真的被國安局現在已經視為是一個就是可能的"},{"start":10917.537,"end":10943.796,"text":"灰色地帶的騷擾的另外一種形式因為我會發現這些影片拍出來他的手法一致方法一致甚至於他在同樣一個時間的大範圍的去做散播那這樣的過程如果你去點選這些散播的人他的不論是粉絲團或者是他個人的使用帳號的時候你會發現點進去他不一定是台灣人甚至於像現在很多的社群媒體點進去的時候你可以去查他"},{"start":10945.217,"end":10965.354,"text":"在發文或者是登記的地方也非台灣對 那像這種的話我知道對於國安局來講這個部分不容易但是也就是因為是灰色地帶所以不容易所以我也就提醒國安局在這個部分必須要在有一些而且是跨部會之間可能不只是只有國安局"},{"start":10965.754,"end":10982.997,"text":"要換不會來做一個整合跟討論跟平台業者一直有透過不同的管道在溝通那正如委員剛剛也正確的觀察到那像X平台跟TREATS他們現在都會去揭露貼文者的所在的位置這是新的 最近才有的一個動作那我覺得這樣的趨勢透明化的趨勢是對的"},{"start":10984.118,"end":11001.744,"text":"我們持續來溝通好 本席也是特別把他質詢出來喔也就是希望說我們能夠透過質詢也可以讓更多的資訊透明化那把這個所謂灰色地帶的惡意的騷擾甚至惡意信息的傳播能夠讓更多民眾了解真相好 謝謝委員提醒喔我們來注意 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":11338.629,"end":11343.291,"text":"我們現在繼續開會 接下來請吳宗憲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":11358.314,"end":11386.263,"text":"部長早安我想我們還是延續星期一的問題把幾個我還是不太理解的問題再就交於部長部長我們看了一下就是您交的那一份台海情勢跟國軍戰備報告第三頁還有第五頁其實有反覆強調一件事就是共軍的威脅嚴峻國軍必須隨時備戰所以我想這代表了就是我們國家目前處境是危險"},{"start":11387.823,"end":11406.549,"text":"這一秒鐘的戰備空窗都不應該有因為我們目前是一個危險的狀況那一樣我還是回到那個問題既然這麼危急那像這種RDX這種關鍵的炸藥那全台灣只有一家裝修公司得標而且他財力又遠遠不及我們的那個巨額採購標準"},{"start":11408.169,"end":11434.174,"text":"法規裡面它在第五條第一項其實有提到一些建議的條件那這樣感覺就很像獨門生意那可以麻煩部長再說明一下謝謝部長相反的我們不是獨門生意我們是公開採購那麼任何符合這個都來投標這個就是比較廣增商源好 謝謝部長那我想因為我自己看就是我自己看的這個案子"},{"start":11435.735,"end":11451.686,"text":"8.24億然後得標廠商是用5.93億強效所以這個看起來好像其實他這個案子是一個在投標當時會讓廠商覺得是一個有利有利潤的案子我過往遇過的一些標案是"},{"start":11452.406,"end":11473.386,"text":"根本沒有利潤所以沒有廠商要來標或是一兩家覺得他可以節約成本的來標那像這個8.2C但是5.93億就可以搶下看起來好像是一個有利潤的案子但是卻只有一家來標那我先跟部長報告一下我過往在懲辦這種標案的犯罪的時候"},{"start":11474.167,"end":11490.044,"text":"我看到這樣的案例我第一個會想到這個會不會有可能是外部自己微標好了第二個有沒有可能是資格上面去綁標我是說以前我過往處理案件我第一個就會想到所以我們沒有綁標沒有沒有我不是說本案"},{"start":11490.684,"end":11511.986,"text":"我是說跟部長報告過往我看到一個有利潤出來的案子卻只有一家廠商來標的時候我第一個在辦的時候我會去思考第一個是不是外部就為標為好了第二個有沒有可能資格上面特定綁某些特殊規格這是我過往的工作經驗我不是說本案所以"},{"start":11513.257,"end":11531.631,"text":"我就覺得一個很奇怪目前我國有實質營運國際貿易許可進出口的廠商我查了一下有35萬家但是這次有利潤卻只有一家來所以我才會一直跟部長就教這件事情"},{"start":11532.472,"end":11548.608,"text":"那因為你有提到說火藥的原料其實是管制的 門檻很高那國內其他有很多一些大廠 軍火大廠或有一些曾經有這種實際經歷經驗 實機的貿易商卻做不到那一家日本就1900萬 去年才臨時變更登記"},{"start":11552.031,"end":11572.039,"text":"的這種菜鳥公司可以拿到所以我當時才會一直覺得說只有兩種可能一個就是這個廠商真的很厲害天才打敗所有軍火大廠第二個貨源是不是有問題會不會是來洗產地那這個是我當時覺得最奇怪的地方我想請教一下部長您的想法就只有一家來而且這家的資本額又不高"},{"start":11573.463,"end":11587.712,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們因為有一個合約的一個控制的作為也就是說他要先繳押標金然後還要繳旅業保證金那麼如果他不能夠旅業旅業保證金會被沒收然後停權嗎"},{"start":11588.653,"end":11617.799,"text":"所以他一般在這種所謂的火藥原物料我們看過去20年來都有一個特色就是說他要有把握那有把握他就要取得那個當地政府的輸出許可以及原廠的證明如果他沒有把握他就會面臨違約的後果謝謝部長部長講得很清楚就是我們國防部的武器還是在違約的時候可以沒收他的履約保證金等等但是我還是擔心一件事情"},{"start":11618.902,"end":11637.521,"text":"他的資本額就1900萬光押標金1770萬就等於是掏空他的身家當然他還要得標之後他還要去繳3000萬的旅業保證金他當然他是拿著國防部的契約去銀行搬錢那這個在商界其實叫空手套白狼"},{"start":11638.161,"end":11664.369,"text":"他這個三千萬不是他的錢而是他拿您的合約去跟銀行借來的錢我想委員講說不是他的錢是不是他的錢您這個我想這個沒有現在這個講話好像部長您先聽我說明一下因為他的資本額只有一千九百萬光押標金就一千七百七十萬那履約保證金三千萬呢這個部分其實只能證明說他有辦法拿著合約到銀行去借錢出來"},{"start":11665.109,"end":11688.421,"text":"委員應該也清楚我們的資本額登記跟他實際的財力我想沒有什麼直接必然的管理委員也是講出這應該很清楚那個部長我再提一個部分我講一個很簡單的其實我們在買東西的時候像譬如說您的事務所如果要買個5.9億的電腦設備你會找一家完全沒有賣過電腦的公司而且他的資本額遠低於"},{"start":11689.361,"end":11715.238,"text":"只有1900萬這樣這麼小的公司如果要包您事務所的電腦設備您會敢找這樣的事務所嗎敢找這樣的店家他完全沒有經驗我還是跟委員報告我們就清查94年來迄今採購火藥原物料的38個案子都是採購它招標廠商的資格都一樣就是我禮拜一所講的最重要就是有公司設立證明納稅證明跟國際保險那我要接下來要講一下我們查了一下他們的資本額"},{"start":11718.761,"end":11721.245,"text":"這個資本額分別有從新台幣100萬元到1億2000萬元不等這些38個案子每一個的資本額"},{"start":11731.366,"end":11753.721,"text":"從最低有到達只有一百萬那也都 重點就在於他有沒有能夠履約為什麼巨額採購的標準他有這些設計就必須他要有十分之一的相當標案十分之一的財力證明第五條第一項而且要有相當的實際的經驗過往交易的經驗要達到五分之二"},{"start":11754.421,"end":11769.499,"text":"為什麼有這些規定就是他希望把風險降到最低您在外面講的沒錯啊您講了一句話說我們要求他要有一定的資本額他就一定能履約嗎當然不可能但是我們是在降低不履約的風險我想今天"},{"start":11770.5,"end":11797.001,"text":"採購法或任何一個標準在那裡要求這些人要有相當的財力相當的過往經驗他不是說百分之百保證一定履約這世界上沒有這種事但是我們是降低不履約的風險嘛所以我們今天的意思一直是這樣我不是說國防部沒有辦法去沒收他的履約保證金我從來沒有這樣講而是在國防國家安全的重要性上面來說"},{"start":11798.042,"end":11826.513,"text":"幾千萬是小事情我一直在意的是我們能不能夠有一個很好的標準去嚴格瞭解幫我們做這些採購的這些公司他是一個很穩定然後有經驗有財力的公司能夠讓這個標案能夠順利的履約完成不讓我們國防產生空窗其實我的重點在這而不是在於說反正他交不出來我可以沒收他的保證金我跟布朗先說明這個點因為我一直"},{"start":11827.413,"end":11845.856,"text":"慶富案當時我有去研究那個案子其實它也是一個財力不好的公司去標下那個352億的案子然後後面又發生詐貿代案跟九家公司代了205億你要想這個案子就像我們拿來看我們今天這個案子"},{"start":11846.797,"end":11871.787,"text":"對他跟銀行拿著國防部的企業跟銀行借了錢出來給你當那個履約保證金他後來沒有辦法履約了國防部確實可以沒收這筆錢沒有錯但是我們國防部不是盈利失業這個錢對國防部沒有益國防部需要的是我們炸藥能夠拿到再來他今天國防部把我錢沒收了我公司倒閉就好倒楣的是誰就是那家貸款的銀行那貸款銀行"},{"start":11874.288,"end":11899.525,"text":"這個呆帳出來到最後倒楣就是帶銀行的股東啊或者是國內的存保嘛那其實到最後受害的還是國人啦所以這就是我覺得說我不會說認為國防部可以沒收履約保證金這一件事情就覺得啊我沒有責任啊我這樣做都是對的是這樣因為我還是很希望國防的每一筆採購都能夠如實交貨因為國防不能有真空嘛"},{"start":11900.345,"end":11926.398,"text":"所以我才跟那天跟部長說我們兩個對國家都有忠誠義務我們都非常的愛護這個國家我希望說都能夠順順利利的採購到該採購的東西我們也都希望順順利利跟委員報告我們清查了過去這38個案子32個案子已經驗收合格都結案付款其中有5萬里約中其中有一個案子就是因為沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明"},{"start":11927.972,"end":11936.91,"text":"所以他的關鍵就是他沒有辦法拿出輸出許可證明所以他沒辦法離約就像您之前有待過金管會我們都知道"},{"start":11938.26,"end":11958.775,"text":"商場上KYC是一件很重要的事情銀行要貸款給你他絕對不是說你來跟我說你要借錢你還得起錢講這兩句話我就認同銀行會KYC的去對備放款者來貸款者我會去了解你的工作狀況你過往的那個信用狀況以及你的財力你有什麼不動產我都會去了解這些"},{"start":11959.395,"end":11986.697,"text":"所以我才敢再貸款給你那一樣我只是拜託國防部在我們在找人家來投標的時候我們對這些人我們要設足夠的門檻我們要排除掉一些有風險的公司否則會有一個狀況就有人跟我講他說哇那今天你的敵國都不用射飛彈來對你了他就在我們國內成立個100家小額的小10萬20萬的公司然後去申請國際貿易我就來狂"},{"start":11988.278,"end":12009.924,"text":"標那個國防部的採購案然後再去跟銀行借錢貸款來繳保證金反正到最後要交貨的時候我說不好意思我交不了我公司倒閉就好然後國防部拿不到這些武器所以你的敵人根本不需要射一顆飛彈他就用這些就可以搞倒你的軍事採購所以這件事情是讓我們看到一個"},{"start":12011.426,"end":12027.248,"text":"東西就是國會的質詢不是找國防部麻煩而是協助國防部一起把漏洞補起來我的利益點只是這樣所以我一直不是在談押標金沒不沒收或餘額保證金沒不沒收因為你要KYC之後這個人如果有風險"},{"start":12028.843,"end":12047.522,"text":"小事情只是火藥沒有辦法交付萬一他拿了以後去交付給恐怖組織怎麼辦他如果拿到了拿到我們國防部的不是我是說萬一啦萬一他拿了我們國防部的合約去取得一些授權然後東西拿到之後他做了什麼事我們不知道我是說萬一啦"},{"start":12047.962,"end":12070.311,"text":"我們國防部沒有授權他沒有啦我是說是他要取得當地政府的授權他拿到你的合約對不對然後他去取得當地政府的授權之後他拿到了這批貨但是他最後他沒有交給國防部而是交給恐怖組織這個都是風險會不會發生我不知道但是希望是從來都不可能有這個機會所以我還是講的那個重點啦"},{"start":12072.185,"end":12077.938,"text":"這些來投標的公司是不是我們還是要特別了解他的狀況是怎麼樣我想"},{"start":12079.318,"end":12106.349,"text":"真正會侵害國家安全的絕對不是立法院的質詢而是我們貿然的讓這些菜鳥公司加入這種軍火的國家隊然後而且部長您也真的不宜說這個不用管資本額不用管背景不用管什麼然後只要拿到原廠輸出許可就好我覺得這句話也不負責任因為你永遠不知道公司他會玩哪一招然後再來"},{"start":12107.429,"end":12130.832,"text":"真正會傷害國家安全的是因為部長我們的採購如果讓敵人知道這麼的鬆散那這個會不會有什麼問題這個會不會讓你的敵人找到破洞然後來像我剛剛講的我就叫一些公司來標你國防部的案子反正到時候每一個都讓你沒有辦法履約我只是讓你扣走我的錢而已嘛但是你的國防就產生真空"},{"start":12132.003,"end":12151.352,"text":"孫子兵法第一句兵者詭盜也所以你在面對敵人他就是兵不厭詐他會跟你玩任何一招這就是我們希望要把這個洞補起來的原因所以部長跟我也報告因秘密的就是他的一個傷源的取得不易所以因秘密的其實是在於他取得傷源是"},{"start":12152.072,"end":12174.814,"text":"我可以理解 我也認同國安採購隱秘密而且很多東西是不得已也辛苦 這我都能理解但是我還是拜託國安部你最近爆發出來的那個什麼一個賣茶葉的10萬塊的那個公司去標到1000多萬的案子他說他連投標都沒有去然後就說得標了像這種東西不管背後他最後做的有沒有成國人會害怕"},{"start":12175.775,"end":12192.951,"text":"國人真的會擔心你們是廣徵裁員還是變成會廣徵漏洞因為剛剛委員提到這應該沒有超過150萬的小額採購他是依照採購法49條用這個郵寄投票的方式這是依照採購法的相關規定我跟部長再報告一次事情"},{"start":12193.832,"end":12215.567,"text":"依照採購法這個絕對沒有問題但是國防的採購絕對不是說我合法就好國防採購應該是一個跟商務採購是完全不一樣的因為部長您一直把重心放在這兩天你一直把重心放在我可以沒收他的履約保證金但是這個是民事訴訟的律師在做的因為你無法履約產生問題公司有損害"},{"start":12216.788,"end":12236.654,"text":"補錢就好了嘛但是國家安全有漏洞我們補的是人命所以我才會這麼在乎這件事情我們希望說來投標的公司國防部能不能夠更嚴謹的去面對而不是說他只要符合採購法的相關規定那其他我就都不管了那小額採購他甚至是一些資訊設備那這些資訊設備有沒有問題"},{"start":12239.295,"end":12259.095,"text":"所以那個老闆直接說他說這個就是好勵志這是一個好勵志的故事我一個10萬塊的賣茶的然後我飆到這樣的案子那其實這個都會讓國人會擔心那您一直跟我講對 它都完全符合採購法但是我相信國防採購我們不能等閒視之因為採購法有問題我們可以用錢補"},{"start":12263.218,"end":12286.712,"text":"資訊服務重要的當然是因為他在這個旅業的階段我們會經營區會做人員查核然後他在製作的時候我們都會在場然後驗收我們也會查核他的資安嘛這個又是另外一個我們會有一個嚴謹的一個過程這樣最後幾句話 部長你一直說國防經的其考驗是不是國防部可以立刻針對這期採購案"},{"start":12289.514,"end":12302.162,"text":"的資格審查標準廠商誠信還有資金來源我們能夠請政風還有工程會跟審計單位下去下去來查這件事好不好給國人讓國人安心可以嗎"},{"start":12303.215,"end":12327.987,"text":"我想委員如果有任何的爭議都歡迎提出給任何的第三工程單位來進行調查我的意思是說可不可以麻煩你們就我剛講那三個點然後你們國防部裡面這有政風嘛那有工程會我們可以找工程會還有審計單位我們先把這個事情先理清楚啦我還是這樣國防非常非常重要我百分之百支持國防我也痛恨傷害我們國家安全的人但是齊構不能夠讓"},{"start":12331.429,"end":12352.622,"text":"軍備有真空啦 我的想法只是這樣好不好 再麻煩部長好 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝 謝謝有一些不是都是用隱秘密來說詞這個部分也請國防部注意有些他就是應該他是公開的來源好 接下來 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":12365.478,"end":12371.4,"text":"你好 我們請國安局長跟部長請蔡局長 顧部長 謝謝好 委員好部長好 局長好局長和部長不知道有沒有注意到最近有一個蠻大的新聞那是在烏克蘭的一個水下無人艇的一個奇襲那據傳烏克蘭方面指出這個俄軍的機構級潛艇有遭到重創"},{"start":12394.799,"end":12412.401,"text":"我們從這個案例我們看到 烏克蘭他用的是水面下的載具在俄國的港內打擊他們的艦艇過去我們講到戰爭的時候 可能都是講前線或者是直接面對面的這種 也不是面對面 就是直接的衝突"},{"start":12413.882,"end":12427.935,"text":"現在包含從租網行動到這一次的行動我們看到有很多的狀況是在敵後從水下港內到隱蔽的去滲透的延伸這跟國安局的情報的取得是有直接的關係"},{"start":12428.996,"end":12445.236,"text":"那不對稱的手段要打到要害那首先就是情節爭我們要得到資訊知道敵方的或者是對方的這一些資產戰略資產或者是戰術的資產什麼時候在什麼地方出現那我們可以採用什麼樣的方式去完成我們自我防衛的目標"},{"start":12446.417,"end":12472.757,"text":"那我看到說我們國防預算的編列我們不管是在彈藥的採購上面不管是在這個情監偵的資源的投資上面我想請教對於這一種演練特別是這種在敵後的可能性的去消耗敵方的資源的演練目前 因為這一次的這個烏克蘭用的這種方式它是由他們的反情報局跟海軍協同去處理"},{"start":12473.615,"end":12499.21,"text":"那我方當然是有在發展自己的潛艦國造有沒有去假想中國利用他在國內的這一種情報人員的資源得知我國的潛艦在何時何地會在什麼地方停泊那可能用類似的狀況來去執行他們的敵後任務不知道這個方式局長有什麼樣的掌握以及海軍可以做什麼樣的反制嗎"},{"start":12500.783,"end":12516.278,"text":"我大概先就我的部分跟委員做個說明那就俄烏戰場上的一些發展的趨勢我們確實有在關注那正如委員所提到的那烏軍他在很多的戰場的一個創意上他發揮了非常多的創意我們有在注意"},{"start":12516.818,"end":12537.851,"text":"委員所提到的是會不會中共用類似的手法來對我們境內也來發動類似的攻擊當然這一部分我們有類似的專案來提醒到有沒有相關管制物品來入關的一個查驗這是第一部分第二部分當然也有國內的可能中共的協力者不是針對那些所謂的竊密協力者"},{"start":12538.271,"end":12551.918,"text":"而是它的一個協力者他可能有一些武裝 攻擊或專業相關背景知識的名單的管制那這一部分我們也有在做一些的掌握那也請我們相關國安情報單位要注意到這些特定的對象或團體"},{"start":12553.519,"end":12571.813,"text":"我們無人載具的演練因為我們沒有辦法也不希望永遠都不要有這樣實質上面的這種攻擊的行為或者是防衛的行為因為這代表說我們沒有辦法阻止或者是嚇阻戰爭但是萬一有這樣的狀況出現的話我們必須要具備這樣的能力一方面是反制"},{"start":12572.513,"end":12595.622,"text":"就是反對他們的介入就是說嚇阻他們的介入或者是知道說讓中方知道說我們知道烏克蘭有利用類似這樣的狀況去擊毀俄羅斯的潛艦我們有做好防範所以包含像這樣子今天我們在國會的質詢公開的資訊把它揭露出來就是說我們有準備我們有防範我們會監視這個我們的海港各個重要的"},{"start":12596.802,"end":12615.462,"text":"我們重要艦艇的海港我們會有這些人員的這種防護那不然跟警政署也好或軍隊的這個巡邏也好我們都會有做好注意但是我認為像這種的能力海軍跟我們的官局也好或者是其他的情報單位也好我們必須要掌握說"},{"start":12616.963,"end":12637.268,"text":"中國方面的這些重要的港口他們什麼時候有什麼樣重要的資產在那邊那我們可以做一個嚇阻的力量說我們或許有這樣的能力所以我們的水面下的無人載具的這一個能夠去測試能夠去演練的地點那就非常重要就我所知現在主要是在高雄跟蘇澳會有"},{"start":12639.469,"end":12663.36,"text":"隨便下的無人載具可以去做測試有沒有可能考慮再多這個試辦或者是說多擴大我知道都是要申請即可但有沒有辦法就是提供一些更基礎的建設讓更多的中小企業 新創產業 創新產業能夠在他們除了製造之外能夠有地方去做訓練不知道部長有沒有什麼樣的回應我們請中科院來好 院長"},{"start":12671.758,"end":12699.588,"text":"我們除了那個在海上實際測試以外現在我們主要的測我們是用水槽第一個就是金屬中心它在高雄協定有一個大型的水槽第二個成大有它的水槽第三個就是海委會的海研所他們現在正在也在建置另外一個水槽這是我們都可以提供給國內業界來使用的謝謝院長除了這個測試之外我的意思是說演練就是假設場景那跟海軍執行這種訓練的話"},{"start":12702.253,"end":12721.998,"text":"如果是這樣的話我們會協助這些企業來申請和執行因為我們要的是它執行的能量而不是它數據上面的展示而已因為很多時候他們不是用最好的水面載具或者水下載具可能都是拼湊出來尤其他們的工業的資源跟能力不見得比台灣好但是他們就去執行這樣子的能力那我們"},{"start":12723.258,"end":12746.628,"text":"中共沒有什麼實戰經驗但很遺憾的是台灣我們不遺憾 值得慶幸但我們也沒有類似的經驗所以演練 演習就非常重要所以我把我們看到的包含一些因為我們未來民雄航太園區會有那民雄航太園除了這個空中飛行的載具之外其實有一些廠商跟一些企業都開始有"},{"start":12747.368,"end":12770.297,"text":"關注到這些他們想要做水面水下載具那我不希望他們只是做出來我希望他們可以實質參與海軍的假想的演練那這樣的話才可以符合我們實際上的作戰的需求有跟委員報告現在除了就無人載具我們包含無人機還有無人狗還有無人水面艦我們都有協助業界在做相關的測試和訓練"},{"start":12772.598,"end":12795.207,"text":"訓練訓練更重要好謝謝謝謝院長那部長那接下來就是要請教部長那局長可以先回謝謝部長關於這一個全球衛星的導航系統我們現在主要最常用的是GPS那主要就是GPS也好那我們主要是希望得到的是定位導航跟這一個"},{"start":12796.187,"end":12824.257,"text":"授實的服務 時間那很多跨系統協同的基礎那很重要的就是時間跟圖像那兩個結合在一起那接下來我們台灣要這個投資在TDOM那本質上我們要可靠的這個時間同步才可以做到協同但是我們知道在遇到衝突的場域的時候很多時候我們的這種全球衛星的導航系統GNSS或者是GPS也好一定會受到阻擾"},{"start":12825.217,"end":12839.777,"text":"所以system of system就是備援的這種狀況或者是過去可能是以中軌道為主接下來包含這地面的跟PNT衛星或者是低軌衛星的這些系統是否已經納入建軍的需求"},{"start":12840.638,"end":12854.611,"text":"因為現在我們的國軍自通信的韌性的專案衛星服務的租用是46億餘元賴總統在先前1.25兆的國防特別預算有宣布衛星跟通訊的編列是125億元"},{"start":12856.392,"end":12874.737,"text":"這些專案中我目前沒有仔細看到應該說沒有明確看到PNT衛星就是Position Navigation跟Timing的這個備援的壽司體系的投資不知道這方面部長針對這個PNT衛星或者是備援的PNT是不是已經納入建軍的需求我們請"},{"start":12877.338,"end":12904.126,"text":"跟委員報告有關於PNT的能力的提升跟設施的部分我們在前面的幾個軍購案包含F16V Block擺動我們就已經納進去我們未來更新的規劃那新的特別預算裡面我們相關的項目著重在系統整合的部分當然這個部分也是未來我們規劃一個重點因為它是防空作戰裡面不可或缺的一環所以這個我們後續如果"},{"start":12905.202,"end":12927.34,"text":"委員有需要的話我們會另外再跟委員做說明好 這一個我們必須要假設因為其實包含美國的一些重要智庫都有把太空威脅那有去做一個整合評估那有把中方跟俄羅斯在特別是俄羅斯在烏克蘭實戰中所使用的各種的jamming的方式都一一的來去把它揭發揭示出來"},{"start":12928.181,"end":12950.837,"text":"接著出來之後我們可以理解到說GPS或者是包含之前有太陽風暴這些基本上GPS是有曾經失靈的狀況所以備援系統是非常重要的除了我們常常講的地軌衛星之外它的地面的設施包含BPS或者是增強型的羅蘭等等我想這些"},{"start":12952.472,"end":12972.905,"text":"都是我們必須要全面納入考量的所以我們講到太空的時候大家可能第一時間就講到是不管是中軌衛星 低軌衛星那地面設施的建置跟全面性的假設全部都被遮就是被遮罩或者是被阻斷的話那怎麼樣維持在地面上還沒有被阻斷的整個去做替換 及時的做替換"},{"start":12973.886,"end":12983.837,"text":"那我想這是我們接下來的挑戰那再麻煩國防部可以提供給我們一些資訊看我們可以怎麼樣來協助是 我們私下再跟委員做一個說明好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":13000.677,"end":13008.64,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安部的顧部長以及國安局的蔡局長一起好不好請顧部長 蔡局長兩位長官好今天我想很多人注意到我們的國安部也提出來了說去中心化"},{"start":13025.097,"end":13043.762,"text":"到底是什麼意思你說過去一個演習也用過過去來講我們看到是總部軍團部隊那現在怎麼樣是任何一個部隊都可以實施第一級是不是我們沒有這麼說我們是防衛作戰"},{"start":13045.476,"end":13068.835,"text":"對 防衛作戰隊啊 這個過去來講從你上年的國防部長就講過啊第一級只要進入我們的領空 進入我們領海就第一級啊我們會有對應變的一些各項的狀況我們做應變的處置的一些相關的規定沒有沒有沒有 我想問你第一級可以不可以由你的去中心化來執行 可不可以我想我們都是在進行自衛"},{"start":13069.875,"end":13084.241,"text":"我知道 自衛的第一級嘛自衛的第一級所以我們對於相關的狀況會有一些律定如何在合乎交戰規則的情況下進行合法的自衛外面的人一般的了解大家的了解就是去中心化就是沒有最高指揮了這個也不是統帥下令了也不是國防部長下令了一個部隊就可以開槍了是這個意思嗎"},{"start":13099.858,"end":13122.435,"text":"跟委員報告 在這個報告裡面已經有說明了是落敵 突然發起攻擊對啊 突然發起啊大陸突然發起我們的 就我們的什麼單位你說一個連長可以嗎 還是一個一個兵就可以了 還是總算有個層級吧對 所以他亂發起這樣的一個軍事攻擊我們當然就可以合法行使自衛權"},{"start":13123.157,"end":13128.964,"text":"那他是誰他是誰任何一個層級所以任何一個層級就是不管他的位階多高乃至於這個就到基層的一個兵也可以是不是這個意思但是跟委員強調這一段主要是在說明"},{"start":13139.858,"end":13155.178,"text":"剛剛我已經有回覆馬委員的問題了就是說這一段主要在強調我們承受了這一個中國的第一級之後我們如果發生最壞的這樣子的一個情況之下我們必須要根據"},{"start":13156.46,"end":13171.152,"text":"每一個部隊所授予的這個任務在合乎交戰規則的情況之下來遂行他的任務那他這個在這種我這樣問你啦比較因為我時間有限這個沒辦法聽你講得唱片大論我不要聽得很清楚這樣講好了過去已經發生過了他的無人機上到我們的金馬的上空要不要打下來"},{"start":13181.108,"end":13205.395,"text":"我們律定就是說就這種無人機如果它進入我們的領空範圍之內我們是可以合法的把它進行對 不要你下令 就是那個部隊這個是因為就面對這樣出難的一個狀況它要實施應對嘛就它就可以了 對不對你不怕擦槍作火它是無人機它是無人機 那其他的飛機呢"},{"start":13206.685,"end":13225.564,"text":"其他有人危機那就要看他有沒有對我們實施一個攻擊的好 我請教那個蔡局長其他國家有沒有這樣子部隊指揮變成區中心化有沒有這次的俄烏戰場確實這是一個新的議題那歐洲國家有不少的討論"},{"start":13226.764,"end":13247.274,"text":"是不是都這樣做其他國家都這樣做美國這樣做嗎沒有 討論的場景大概是在於說假如你的中央化的中心化的一個指揮管制體系出現問題的話怎麼樣有一個比較非中央化的運作機制我就請問你美方對於這樣子區域中心化的做法是什麼有 有在討論 有這樣的討論有沒有實施 討論討論因為這是一個在歐戰場上發現的一個新的好 第二個問題我請教部長"},{"start":13256.759,"end":13279.931,"text":"這個看到中國大陸跟日本因為這個高斯藻苗的言論他的敵意一直升高在這個看到發生過J15火控雷達照射日本的F15日本當然說這是他的偵察任務總共是說這個我在訓練的時候你來滋擾了"},{"start":13283.307,"end":13306.923,"text":"來來來 先請教局長你們得到的資訊是哪一個比較對啊日本講得對還是老共講得對啊就那個現場的狀況來講我們的理解是共機因為已經在日本周邊的空域活動所以日本他當然有派出他的戰鬥機上去所以日本已經在活動了老共已經在活動了"},{"start":13307.483,"end":13325.706,"text":"日本闖進去的是這個意思不是 因為他已經活動範圍已經有點靠近到日本周邊的空域所以日本有戰鬥機起來但是老共的那個相關的雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那日方覺得那是我就問你嘛是誰先啟動的嘛是他在那裡"},{"start":13327.477,"end":13341.588,"text":"訓練在前還是日本的飛機先飛我當然是中共的中共的先嘛所以你這兩個講起來的話就變成老共講得比較準啦也沒有啦是不是這個意思你剛剛就這個意思啊沒有沒有我也要看一下日方的一些說明"},{"start":13342.651,"end":13367.243,"text":"怎麼美國對這個態度都點點沒有沒有我剛剛也跟那個陳俊宇委員在做說明的是12月的6號發生了這個事件之後美國在12月8號兩天之後馬上跟日本啟動了美國航母編隊的軍事演訓來 那個請教顧部長啊今天如果老共的飛機來了我們F什麼上來了然後他也這樣子火控雷達照我們"},{"start":13372.645,"end":13393.705,"text":"我們可不可以視為出欄他出欄的要我們就是這個去中心化直接反擊可不可以我想如果他有對我們進行鎖定的話我們就要判斷他的一個意圖要不要直接開火如果他鎖定我們而且有一個攻擊的一個傾向我們當然可以合法的行使自衛權"},{"start":13395.346,"end":13412.067,"text":"這個要 他講得很清楚喔因為委員講的是鎖定喔對啊 鎖定啊他這個火控雷達照射就鎖定啊那我們已經這個整個飛機上的警報器都已經響了喔已經是被他鎖定了喔他要進行意圖要進行攻擊啊日本為什麼被鎖定日本都沒有去打他這個我想"},{"start":13415.29,"end":13425.388,"text":"對於這樣子的一個判斷那就是日本要在當下要去判斷他到底對於他的雷達這樣的一個照射是不是已經造成一種鎖定要進行攻擊"},{"start":13427.869,"end":13445.184,"text":"那我再請教國安局長這個高市長苗現在他的議論當然沒有說回去台灣有事的事情但是他特別又澄清說日本要採取集體自衛權對象相當優先他就提到美國"},{"start":13446.425,"end":13474.114,"text":"有沒有報告台灣我想那個高市首相他在強調的是集體智慧權的行使必須要同盟國家之間才能啟動集體智慧權所以台灣沒有啊現在跟日本簽訂同盟條約的確實是美國但是在美日同盟的架構之下他們可能共同應處各種不同的事態那這個部分高市首相在前面的說明有提到台灣要是有事的話是涉及到危及存亡事態"},{"start":13474.834,"end":13488.358,"text":"這個高斯的講法是不是間接的就要把他的話收回去一半沒有沒有日本後來內閣有對這方面做說明蔡警長請回最後一個問題我請教郭部長剛才你又回答幾個委員的題目你在禮拜一的時候我有諮詢過相當的題目你一直強調只要他能夠交貨"},{"start":13502.622,"end":13510.968,"text":"就可以了管他背景是什麼公司名稱是什麼都不要管其實那一句話你那一句話 黎巴宜那一句話對你是很傷的"},{"start":13512.305,"end":13533.606,"text":"對你是很傷的因為我們都知道這不是軍事採購特別軍事採購政府採購法就明明規定有積極的資格有財務能力資本額下限最近一年的財報大家看的還有過去要有一年內"},{"start":13535.608,"end":13553.972,"text":"一定年限內完成類似的採購法要承讓一定的金額以上這都是政府採購法以及實質細則明明白白講的不是只有你講說他只要能交貨只要能交貨 不是這樣喔我們的政府採購法訂得這麼清楚而且你這個錢這個這個浮脈這個錢是5.9億 將近6億這麼大的一筆金額"},{"start":13563.823,"end":13578.299,"text":"清清楚楚有積極資格還有消極資格那個消極資格某種程度就對於你那個那個大使就是一個要排除掉了他不能夠有判刑的紀錄到裡面寫得很清楚啊政府採購法規政府採購時事細則訂了這麼清楚積極資格跟消極資格部長啊"},{"start":13585.066,"end":13587.609,"text":"你前天講的話老實講你是賭池喔你是賭池喔你怎麼可以把這個ignore怎麼把它就視而不見只要他交貨那就好了你沒想過說那180天以後他如果沒有辦法交怎麼辦我們就炸掉就不要了這個且不要講"},{"start":13605.669,"end":13619.199,"text":"你說你是律師出身的 你都不守法你們要看這個 積極資格 要看財務啊而且要看過他以前做過的一些案件都要看啊 怎麼可以不看呢"},{"start":13621.241,"end":13637.036,"text":"跟委員報告我想我已經說明得很清楚了我們過去20年來都是採同樣的一個資格這是先說明我們都一律公開招標也合乎相關政府採購法的相關的規定那至於您講的這些有關巨額的這個部分呢"},{"start":13637.436,"end":13653.71,"text":"他本來就是得並不是因那對於我們相關的這些資格的一個認定我們過去以來都因為就火藥原物料的這個取得我們認為他只要取得輸出許可證明我再講一句話就好了這是必要喔必要必要這是必要這是required這不是說可以讓你得是必要"},{"start":13661.537,"end":13674.842,"text":"沒有時間的關係 主任時間的關係如果你們講的跟昨天一樣 那請提供書面就好請回應我們委員的質詢 謝謝接下來請謝龍介委員上台質詢"},{"start":13696.788,"end":13701.614,"text":"主席我請部長跟局長請部長還有蔡局長好 委員好部長辛苦了部長我們都很尊重你的專業有時候也不需要太過動氣"},{"start":13716.618,"end":13744.945,"text":"本來全世界都一樣嘛就針對國防採購就是非常謹慎那這也不是說一般公共工程在採購所以他涉及到我們國安的這個風險那還有一些專門專業的門檻還有高度的管制等等所以大家當然會比較在意如果你只說他有違法我有扣他的保證金或怎麼樣那當然"},{"start":13745.888,"end":13758.596,"text":"我們是不能接受所以這是 跟你問這是沒有範疑啦大家針對這個問題在探討的時候你千萬不能想起 當然我看你對我是沒有啦但是我看你對別的委員都像我這樣想很難開我請教你"},{"start":13770.984,"end":13797.553,"text":"我從今天你們的報告就提到中國大陸跟菲律賓在這個仁愛礁還有先兵礁民主礁這裡打水炮然後驅趕那你說他是在阻止菲律賓從事補給以及逼迫其放棄該據點"},{"start":13801.22,"end":13806.023,"text":"我不知道為什麼我們的國家沒有發出嚴正聲明這是我們的領土這是憲法規定我們中華民國的領土怎麼可以容許他們仰照在這我們的領土上面胡作非為呢局長你沒有發表聲明啊"},{"start":13826.425,"end":13837.929,"text":"國安局的角色我們會針對相關的狀況來做研判那總統也沒有講話啊社外單位外交部也沒有講話啊那在我們家呢啊一個剎那一個土匪啊在我們家玩架說黑人的啊我們都經常不出聲你要怎麼堆在中華民國你是中華民國的國安局局長"},{"start":13856.135,"end":13857.135,"text":"是不是這樣你覺得這樣有利嗎 你今天報告寫得很清楚啊現在是宣告我們中華民國放棄了這些主權嗎對不對不可思議啊我可以開始在這陣報告之後台南鄉親就靠電話跟我說怎麼會變成這樣啊"},{"start":13887.466,"end":13889.829,"text":"你竟然拿來國會報告到這樣所以你是同意中國大陸把我們跟菲律賓管理開這個地方還是不同意"},{"start":13904.417,"end":13916.521,"text":"不過我想政府對於那個南海政策立場是實際上之前都有對外做一些說明啦什麼說明對 也就是我們擁有南海地區擁有擁有的我們會在我們家兩個點的燒賣在那裡玩家在那裡賀罪燒盤我們還要點點"},{"start":13922.745,"end":13933.374,"text":"不過可能委員也理解一下喔 除了那個相關的主權的聲明的立場的闡述以外那他畢竟涉及到的是整個區域政治比較複雜的狀況區域政治哪有複雜喔 來 要講區域政治來 我請教你日本首相國旗遮錶喔"},{"start":13940.717,"end":13966.375,"text":"你說台灣有事情 就是日本有事情這是我前陣子在這裡跟你請教的時候 我有跟你講因為老總統 曾經在一年多前他說要聯合有我的民主國家對中國大陸造成軍事上的威懾力是不是這樣 你說是 好 來今天日本找那個高市首相上車了"},{"start":13967.827,"end":13996.639,"text":"他說台灣有事就是日本有事造成中國大陸跟日本現在高度緊張的狀況之下我請教你如果日本有事我們台灣會不會有事要不要有事事實上我們最近的報告大家有提到現在整個印太地區的狀況很多的安全情勢都是連動的它本來就是連動的日本跟大陸有事現在日本有事我們中華民國要不要有事"},{"start":13997.506,"end":14025.802,"text":"那看委員對於那個有事的定義是什麼我剛剛的說明是安全情是就以日本對我們台灣有事的定義一樣啊你要不要有事啊但是委員講到的日本對有事的定義是他的法制面他有對於有事的一些假見今天大陸 中國大陸如果跟日本有軍事衝突台灣要不要介入你要不要出兵不中總統剛有交代說日本有事我們要出兵"},{"start":14026.99,"end":14055.814,"text":"我想如果說整個印太區域的第一島鏈剛剛局長也提到整個安全趨勢都是相關聯的那麼如果有發生一旦危及到我們台灣地區的這一個國家安全跟和平穩定的一個現狀的時候我們當然都要廣播立場當然都要採取相對應的適切的行動適切的行動是有卡點出兵這是總統的意思這是總統的意思嗎"},{"start":14056.564,"end":14074.962,"text":"我想我們沒有辦法去回答您總統有指示過嗎剛剛講的有事到底是在什麼樣狀況就是中國大陸跟日本如果發生了軍事衝突什麼樣的軍事衝突擦槍著火一瞬間可能現在我們談話的當下就可能會發生那我們要不要出兵"},{"start":14075.799,"end":14095.996,"text":"您講的軍事衝突是指全面的戰爭還是小規模的所以你的意思是內部有研議如果是小規模的軍事衝突我們是置之不理 繼續觀察我想任何的狀況我們都會做適切的回應但是我們沒有辦法在這裡回答一些假設性的問題"},{"start":14097.037,"end":14123.859,"text":"那麼委員必須要具體的說明你講的有事是什麼樣子的一個狀態日本說台灣有事就是日本有事啊現在日本有事了我們說我們要看看這樣會讓日本的鄉親日本的朋友會看我們沒有道義耶我想日本首相的講得很清楚就是說一旦台海發生中國對台灣進行軍事的一個攻擊的時候就是日本的"},{"start":14124.865,"end":14149.184,"text":"存立危機的一個事態他的表達就是如此所以他就是要軍事制裁我想他就是說明一個存立危機的一個事態那如果中國大陸跟日本現在有了軍事衝突我們要不要比照日本一樣的總統有沒有在國安會議裡面做過這一些指示啊所以我還是要請委員確定的說明所謂軍事衝突指的是什麼"},{"start":14150.2,"end":14177.731,"text":"假如今天是在這個釣魚台他們兩兆發生了軍事衝突我們要不要主張釣魚台是中華民國的領土我想我們會根據我們的應變區內所有涉及到我們應變區內所有應該做的處置我們都會做處置那我們也會維護我們的主權跟我們的相關的安全如果他們兩兆的"},{"start":14179.605,"end":14204.14,"text":"的艦艇在這個釣魚台12海里以內然後發生搏擊 火力搏擊那我們要不要出兵我們都會適切的來根據當時的狀況做一個應處那釣魚台是不是我們中華民國的領土我想我們現在的主張沒有改變主張是什麼 你主張是是還是不是啊"},{"start":14204.909,"end":14223.985,"text":"我們就一直主張我們擁有嘛我們擁有所以那就是我們的嘛那為什麼我們的漁民到那邊會被驅趕這個是台日雙方有這樣的一個協議沒有喔 馬政府的時候是我們的漁民當時我們簽了協定以後我們的漁民到那邊空間很大啊所以我剛剛已經講了嘛"},{"start":14231.857,"end":14258.766,"text":"中國大陸現在經常戰鬥機就到釣魚台去繞一繞那如果在這邊擦槍著火所以部長還是不能肯定我們會不會介入所以今天日本有事台灣不一定會有事中國也經常的在我們台海周邊從事軍事挑釁我們都有辦飛 我們都有起飛我們都有對他相對應的支持但是釣魚台我們沒有"},{"start":14261.732,"end":14286.193,"text":"在我們的應變區範圍內我們所以是釣魚台就是我們應變不足的區域啊那太平島呢我想我們對於所有的這個狀況我們都會有一個適切的一個應處的規範那我想如果委員需要知道我們私下再跟委員做一個說明好 蘇哈你給我知道一下好不好沒中"},{"start":14288.755,"end":14304.246,"text":"我今天要跟你們說 你們的報告裡面對菲律賓和中國大陸在我們的領土裡面這樣然後你們還大剌剌的拿出來講好像不干我們中華民國的事 這我本身看不下去我們台灣的鄉親也看不下去 他覺得這樣是在出賣資金的好不好 我們大家共同不用理他"},{"start":14311.963,"end":14314.426,"text":"謝謝 針對剛剛我們謝榮介委員提到的這個部分部長 我想連你在這裡都沒有辦法分辨出說什麼時候你可以展開可能回籍"},{"start":14327.163,"end":14331.006,"text":"所以要基層的官士兵因為我們剛剛一直在講去中心化的指揮是不帶命令即可作戰的這個部分我們一定要把它釐清清楚如果連部長現在都沒有辦法釐清說什麼時候我們可以回擊可以展開作戰這樣子的一個動作我想基層的官士兵更沒有辦法所以這個會引起很大的危險剛剛蔡局長說"},{"start":14350.382,"end":14352.265,"text":"俄烏戰爭這個是有被討論的俄烏戰爭現在是處於戰爭狀態他們已經打了快四年了可是我們在還沒有啟動戰爭狀態的情況之下我們的基層官士兵在什麼樣的情況之下可以不要中心指揮就可以"},{"start":14369.185,"end":14388.759,"text":"不帶命令可以作戰這個部分一定要講清楚一打下去這個不得了所以這個部分我們希望相關的單位一定要讓我們所有的官士兵還有我們所有全體國人非常清楚的知道這個部分接下來我們請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":14397.958,"end":14423.027,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝我們國防委員會剛才做的兩個決議那就針對現在有爭議性的那包含我們這個炸藥的相關的國防部的採購有兩個決議必須要符合相關的法規而且對於相關的程序跟價格也應該要做一些限制好那我想首先請那個蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":14431.362,"end":14460.061,"text":"好 局長好 局長我想請教一下國安局那如果對外採購如果是屬於具有這個敏感性或者是資安國安疑慮的標案或者是涉及國家安全採購的標案請問一下 像這樣的標案你們會不會標給資本額只有10萬元的公司"},{"start":14461.459,"end":14475.94,"text":"假如是比較機敏的標案當然我們有我們相關的發標跟發包跟那個招標的一個程序對 按照程序來做跟資格對不對那像這樣的有涉及國安資安的標案"},{"start":14476.961,"end":14497.061,"text":"會不會給一家就是他事實上是可能有人頭他就可能是一直不停的不停的轉一個人開了好幾家公司然後這裡面他所謂的專業人員是用工讀生請問國安局會不會就是有國安這樣規格的標案會標給這樣的公司"},{"start":14500.072,"end":14529.412,"text":"就管局這邊當然就像剛剛跟委員說明的啦我們一定的一個作業的程序那如果那如果有這樣子的就資本額很低只有十萬塊但是可以標到有關資安相關的電腦相關維護設備或者是他有曾經被告過詐欺或者是他其實主業是茶行然後他們可能只有兩個人其中還有工讀生"},{"start":14530.372,"end":14537.916,"text":"像這樣子的一個涉及國安資安的標案如果是這樣的程序發包局長請問一下這樣有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":14541.687,"end":14556.833,"text":"對 一般 我想我的理解我剛有跟委員說明因為我不知道國防部的法規規範是什麼剛才部長講好多次了第一個部分當然是法規面第二個是在個案的標案裡面有沒有一些相關的條件像現在的狀況這是有一個具體的案例具體案例它就是"},{"start":14563.976,"end":14591.505,"text":"標給了一家資本額10萬塊這是不真的事實然後媒體也訪問到這家公司的負責人他主要是做茶葉那他說他是資訊管理系數德科技的資訊管理系那他說有人忙不過來就是另外一位他是用公讀生的方式然後另外他講到說他人沒有去他就標到了我要確定一下"},{"start":14592.725,"end":14612.811,"text":"像這樣子的狀況他有沒有國安的疑慮因為我們一直都很擔心我們被滲透對不對那如果有一個有心人士或者是境外敵對勢力他看到我們的標案這麼簡單他要成立一家資本額10萬塊的公司太容易了"},{"start":14613.351,"end":14632.035,"text":"他要找一個這個有資管背景資管科系畢業的人他兩個都不只他20個都可以他就可以來標國防部的這樣子具有機敏性跟資安的標案有沒有國安餘力我已經講了問了好多次"},{"start":14632.714,"end":14648.059,"text":"因為委員講的是一個非常特定的一個個案的標案那我就問這個個案會不會有國安疑慮那因為我對這個個案我比較不了解你就不敢講你不敢講說他沒有國安疑慮也不敢講他有國安疑慮好 時間暫停一下我們請那個顧部長好 謝謝委員請顧部長"},{"start":14654.622,"end":14682.275,"text":"好 部長你可以看到剛才局長非常辛苦他也不能打臉你他也不敢幫你背書那我要講的就是最近我們所陸續爆發出來的國防部的採購它的漏洞非常非常多它的門檻極為寬鬆而且你們沒有經過相關的資格的要求跟徵訊好 一個剛才講的今天討論了很多"},{"start":14683.075,"end":14685.796,"text":"我剛才說這絕對是國安漏洞任何一個人他只要來標國防部電腦維護你們還天天密件 機密件他通通可以看光光再來一個這個是我前一陣子所提出來的這個也是一個很確定的一家蜂蜜公司"},{"start":14705.346,"end":14721.996,"text":"這個蜂蜜公司它事實上在中科院已經把它列入為黑名單了是中科院已經確定列入黑名單然後減掉在今年起訴它以所謂的它有息產地問題有詐欺的問題但是在國防部繼續的把案子標給它"},{"start":14729.059,"end":14745.672,"text":"所以我要講的是一個這個查行我之前提到的他已經被很多包含法務部去告包含大學去告包含他去告立法院他也敗訴那另外這個風義公司呢他是直接被中科院列黑名單他也已經被檢調起訴的案子你們繼續標給他所以部長"},{"start":14753.338,"end":14766.488,"text":"這些案子整個下來 我知道你是律師 你剛剛回答賴思寶委員你是用律師的身份 你很會鑽這個法律漏洞但是我請問一下 我們連續這些標案的問題你認為國防部在整個的 在未來對外採購這些標案需不需要做檢討"},{"start":14776.138,"end":14803.536,"text":"柯文委員報告您剛講的有關那個紅樟茶葉的這個維護合約我們在這個廠商派出前我們就完成了人員的安全查核那另外在這個維護的期間都有專責人員陪同施作那我們在驗收的時候也會有採購單位依規定再次實施系統的檢核你們怎麼查核 他人都沒到耶"},{"start":14804.005,"end":14809.97,"text":"沒有資安餘領 您講的沒有人沒有到那是指招標那因為這個是屬於小額的採購的服務合約所以他依照採購法的49條本來就可以用郵寄來投標那我剛剛講的是他在履約的階段他得標之後我們要做人員查核安全的查核那你知道他有被告"},{"start":14824.983,"end":14846.724,"text":"我們有專責人員來陪同然後我們要檢核那你有知道我提出來的他有被地檢署告有被大學告知道嗎另外我想已經說明這個是軍威公司你又迴避問題了軍威公司你講的是軍威公司他從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的標案這個負責人有被告啊"},{"start":14849.913,"end":14854.698,"text":"對 那這個負責人的被告的結果這個公司的停權是由軍威公司被停權那是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23日跟我們現在講的鴻章茶行它的得標是在111年的11月沒有關聯"},{"start":14871.263,"end":14890.81,"text":"所以這全部都這兩個人耶他的重點就是他被告完了之後再用另外一個人頭再去成立一家公司這個負責人他也講說哇現在這麼多爭議我們再去成立一家公司就好啦對他自己都承認了好來那我剛才講的豐益公司呢豐益公司他已經被起訴你們仍然去讓他參與標案而且標給他"},{"start":14895.55,"end":14910.367,"text":"就這個部分我們現在已經在我們的這個相關的標案裡面說明就是說他一旦被中科院因為這個相關的國安法的一些規定比如說他去"},{"start":14913.487,"end":14931.805,"text":"那個大陸的地區這樣子的一個問題然後被中間列入黑名單的時候我們把它列入我們把它列入這個不能夠投沒有具有投標的一個資格我們現在已經把它列入了"},{"start":14932.521,"end":14950.423,"text":"現在才列入但是中科院去年就把它列入了我們原來是在這個履約的階段來那個那現在進一步把它列入這一個不能夠來進行投票你們這些標案你承不承認裡面有漏洞甚至可能會有國安疑慮呢"},{"start":14951.674,"end":14960.696,"text":"我想每一個個案的狀況不同我們每一個個案都會來不斷的檢討那關於火藥原物料的部分我已經說明的相當清楚我們用合約來進行控管所以我第一時間那麼在這個您剛剛講的資訊的服務的部分我們也有相關的規範那風鈺公司的這個部分呢我們原來是在履約的階段來加以控管那現在進一步從招標的資格也加以控管"},{"start":14977.859,"end":15006.378,"text":"你覺得你們是不是應該依照工程會的相關的採購的這個辦法去執行呢這個在我前兩天的諮詢我也特別提出來剛才那個賴思寶委員也提出來投標廠商資格跟特殊及巨額採購認定標準要求具有時機具有一定的人力具有一定的財力這些至少要有這些相關的資格標準你們國防部應不應該"},{"start":15008.24,"end":15023.576,"text":"來比照辦理不然的話你們的門檻是在太多寬鬆嗎我們都會根據合約的一個性質本身來律定這個投票商的資格那至於你講的高額的部分這個是不是請採購室來沒關係 我跟你講市長不要再說明了因為特定資格"},{"start":15024.963,"end":15047.75,"text":"不用 你時間的關係 你用書面好了因為你們講的都一樣對 我覺得我們也不想聽你們像錄音帶一樣如果這樣子死不認錯明明都已經出現這些漏洞我們都一再的去提醒你們還不做 老實說這些案件不是最後 未來一定會有那我也要拜託國安局 也跟國防部溝通啊這個絕對有國安疑慮啊"},{"start":15050.971,"end":15066.258,"text":"怎麼可能是這樣子的一個狀況10萬塊錢公司請工讀生只有兩個人那請問一下都如入無人之境我們還在那邊講什麼反滲透法 國安法那你們自己本身就是一個大漏洞以上好 謝謝"},{"start":15070.069,"end":15075.414,"text":"我們兩天都聽到同樣的話因為馬祖有這麼多的官士兵被汰除因為他們把帳號借給人家我們今天提出來這麼多可能對廠商有疑慮的我們花了很多時間幫廠商在做說明在幫他們背書我們都不知道這些被汰除有一些甚至他們"},{"start":15094.744,"end":15105.293,"text":"在軍中服役了快要一二十年有的甚至更長他因為一些狀況就被汰除我們對這些為什麼他會這麼嚴謹我們居然對我們的廠商這麼寬宏大量不可思議謝謝接下來請黃仁黃仁黃仁委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":15127.278,"end":15130.38,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請蔡局長請蔡局長局長好 辛苦了看到你們的報告有提到美盟強化第一島鏈共同防禦也提到說美日非加強協作著手在第一島鏈部署反艦導彈打擊網絡當然台灣是屬於第一島鏈的重中之重"},{"start":15155.095,"end":15168.97,"text":"你也提到說美國在12月初所提到的國家安全戰略裡面把印太地區定位為全球競爭的優先戰區提出維持關鍵航道的開放這應該是指台灣海峽嗎"},{"start":15170.083,"end":15195.576,"text":"當然包括區域裡面的關鍵航道還有強化美軍印太的前置部署盟友共同分擔的防務的三大核心的方向我先請教一下局長應該有看過美國最新版的國家安全戰略嗎有你怎麼樣來評估說這一份國家安全戰略對於全球還有區域權力分布還有台灣在這邊的角色的重要性"},{"start":15196.176,"end":15223.973,"text":"有 事實上剛剛也跟幾位不同委員有做過說明結果美國在這一次新版的國家安全戰略當中有表達他對於印太安全跟穩定的高度的關注那也特別提到了相關的軍事的因應的重點應該要聚焦在第一島鏈的部分那因為台灣在西太平洋第一島鏈扮演一個非常重要的角色那地理位置也非常的重要所以當國際的友盟在這個部分來提升他們的防衛能力以及我們剛剛圖示的"},{"start":15225.354,"end":15248.536,"text":"武器裝備的部份 那台灣該做什麼就台灣來講我們當然也要展現我們自我防衛的決心來提升我們自己的國防量能避免在整個島鏈防禦的態勢過程當中變成是一個防禦的真空那這樣子可能我們會承受到國際友盟對我們的不信任因為美國他有提到就是說他要求盟友承擔更多的安全責任 對不對"},{"start":15249.897,"end":15271.332,"text":"那台灣也不是只有這個作為這個晶片生產晶片重要的一個國家我們也是第一島鏈的關鍵的一個樞紐所以我就要請教局長這個美國的戰略有做調整從保護台灣走向共同威懾的體系所以我才會提到就是說台灣的這個重要性角色越來越重要"},{"start":15272.148,"end":15289.322,"text":"那這個台灣的戰略價值也提高了那我們的能力越大責任也越大那我們現在應該要負的責任是什麼我們現在負的責任跟過去有什麼不一樣在區域穩定當中在美國這個新版的這個國家安全責任當中"},{"start":15290.047,"end":15312.069,"text":"第一部分我想主要是在提升自己的自我防衛的能量那這部分當然要配合到國防部相關的一個國防投資建設的一個期程來逐一的一個推動那另外委員這邊有特別提到一個不對稱戰力的一個概念那我想這也是我們在提升台灣防禦戰力當中的一個重點的工作因為台灣"},{"start":15312.87,"end":15335.491,"text":"不會去跟周邊國家進行軍備競賽我們必須要針對我們的有限的資源投注在比較能夠在區域戰場上發揮我們量能的一些重點的項目但是目前就包括委員提到的不對稱戰力以及相關智能化的管理對 我就提到就是說目前我們的這一個不對稱戰力的特別預算目前都還沒有付為"},{"start":15337.084,"end":15353.571,"text":"接下來會不會因為這個不對稱的軍購預算沒有通過會變成說台灣就像局長剛才所講的我們未來這幾年在第一島鏈的重要性裡面我們變成一個中空容易被擊破的一個中間點"},{"start":15355.892,"end":15383.762,"text":"對 這有兩個面向的議題一個是軍事上的也就是委員提到的只要我們沒有自己的國防能力的提升的話它會變成是一個漏洞那我們自己也沒有辦法來防衛自己第二個是戰略上的在戰略上可能國際友盟會對台灣非常不信任當國際友盟在這邊加注相關的投資以及軍力的一個防衛的建設那台灣自己好像置身事外變成一個搭便車的角色那我們會喪失到國際上對我們的戰略信任"},{"start":15384.102,"end":15405.761,"text":"所以我想衝擊有軍事面跟戰略面好 那就戰略面來講的話局長現在有類似的訊息或是情報就是說因為我們的軍購的預算沒辦法付為也不知道接下來會不會做審查甚至有沒有辦法通過都是未定之數有沒有我們的盟友對於這件事情有不同的意見跟看法"},{"start":15406.081,"end":15424.935,"text":"有 剛剛也有人在提醒那事實上因為還在一個立法院的一個討論過程當中那我們能夠講的是假如真的是沒有通過相關預算的話那我們剛剛擔心的軍事面跟戰略面可能產生的衝擊那就會對我們國家造成的處境會比較負面一點那我請一下苦主好了 我們顧部長有關於這一個軍備預算"},{"start":15432.636,"end":15438.026,"text":"剛剛局長有就這個戰略面也有說了一些他的一些看法那部長呢"},{"start":15439.606,"end":15459.92,"text":"我想在前面回答幾位委員的問題已經有說明了就是說美國視台海為它的核心利益也就是台海的和平穩定是美國的核心利益那美國也希望台灣的自身防衛能力是一個有效嚇阻的一個關鍵前提所以我們一定要強化自我防衛能力"},{"start":15463.038,"end":15488.315,"text":"那當然就會形成可能會在這個我們站在第一島鏈的這個前緣我們不希望成為一個破口那目前看起來是有可能形成一個破口我們希望透過這個我們的國防預算也包括特別預算然後讓我們成為一個區域內共同形成對中國可能的一種軍事"},{"start":15489.11,"end":15502.442,"text":"的一種侵略的一個有效嚇阻的一環那我想我們以實力來形成嚇阻那以嚇阻來達成和平好我最後一個問題我請教一下局長不好意思我再請教一下蔡局長就最後一個問題很簡單謝謝那這個謝謝部長"},{"start":15509.893,"end":15527.345,"text":"這個黎智英現在因為被法官 香港的法官說他違反了這個香港的國安法說他什麼串謀勾結國外還有境外的勢力 危害這個國安權那這件事情再加上說前兩天有香港的民主黨派 民主黨也解散了"},{"start":15527.665,"end":15555.175,"text":"那等於說是新聞自由跟這個組黨參政都有可能在香港變成是一個危害這個他們港版國安法的一個模式那我想請這個局長怎麼來看待這件事情對 就中共他現在因為已經把香港內地化了然後透過新的國安法制來壓抑不同的一個聲音那所以可能在中國所謂的愛國人治港的原則之下我們可以看到在這一次的香港立法會的選舉"},{"start":15556.375,"end":15572.915,"text":"廢票率達到3.15%大概是歷來最高那在稍早的澳門的那個立法會選舉廢票率也高達7.5%那麼高所以我們可以看到香港民眾或是澳門的民眾在中共這種所謂的愛國"},{"start":15574.156,"end":15591.861,"text":"者自感或自傲的一個這種規劃之下大概相關的基本的言論自由或基本的人權都有慢慢流失的趨勢所以我們看到在立法會的選舉的這種民眾的這種廢票率就大概兩個選舉都是創下歷史最高的一個狀況"},{"start":15593.301,"end":15616.881,"text":"那所以這件事情對於國安局來講有沒有什麼樣的因為中共在稍早之前也提到說有所謂的愛國者治台的一個概念那所以我們剛剛跟委員說明的是以愛國者治港跟愛國者治澳的一個狀況可以看到這樣的一個治理對當地民眾來講是感到非常的失望那用這種廢票率很高的投票方式來表達他們的不滿"},{"start":15617.461,"end":15630.971,"text":"等於香港現在就沒有什麼新聞自由也沒有什麼樣的一個組黨的自由在野黨派也幾乎都被解散了好 謝謝局長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請顧立雄部長請顧部長"},{"start":15650.106,"end":15671.761,"text":"顧部長本席今天站在這邊是這幾天真的外界媒體大家都關注國防部的標案國防部的預算年度總預算從2016年馬政府最後一年的時候3000多億一年到現在成長到2027年明年年度總預算有到9000多億將近三倍的成長"},{"start":15672.842,"end":15695.127,"text":"那成長那麼大幅的情況下當然大家也會關心可是媒體報導有用顧部長更小燈燒起說連馬防部被詐團入侵都沒有看到我們國防部長那麼的生氣但是當委員在做質詢或是媒體在詢問我們這相關標案的時候部長卻動怒 爆金句"},{"start":15696.647,"end":15723.779,"text":"說我不用管到底廠商名字叫什麼說實在話廠商名字叫A叫B叫C但更重要是它合不合理是因為它過去有沒有實際以及它的資本額還有它的投標記錄為什麼這兩年國人要問的是以前可以賣茶葉的賣馬桶的裝潢的突然間在這幾年都搖身一變變成是軍品變成是我們國防部的採購的履約廠商這才是國人好奇跟起疑的地方"},{"start":15724.719,"end":15744.836,"text":"第一時間我們期待的是國防部長應該要針對這些部分再去啟動內機內控好好的釐清說到底這些廠商有沒有瑕疵中間有沒有哪個環境錯誤以及能不能未來屢約保證能夠安全無虞到期而不是說在這邊跟媒體也好或跟委員也好在大小聲"},{"start":15745.936,"end":15753.624,"text":"部長你可不可以理解現在國人大家對於國防部在這件事情處理的態度以及處理的狀況會讓國人覺得說其中更大的疑點重重部長跟委員報告我想剛剛委員會也已經通過了要求國防部對於"},{"start":15765.556,"end":15773.745,"text":"這個高爆風險原料的採購每批貨與原產地起因錢都會先依據這個國際海運的危險貨物相關規範我想我們都會來確實的要求廠商完成這些相關的運輸申報計畫的文件等等我想"},{"start":15785.017,"end":15799.016,"text":"就如同我之前一再講到了我們對於這樣子的一個廣增商源的結果我們是用相關的這個履業的過程當中嚴格的管制來達成我們購案能夠執行成功的一個目標部長"},{"start":15801.192,"end":15820.88,"text":"那我想請教一下現在國人到好奇是說過去裝潢 馬桶 茶葉等這相關行業這兩年都可以搖身一變變成增加特定營業項目然後就變成是我們國防部可以履約的一個廠商之一那國人到很好奇是說還有多少廠商還有沒有會不會這兩天又再爆出來"},{"start":15822.139,"end":15842.166,"text":"手搖飲的 檳榔攤的 小吃店的也會搖身一變變成是我們的軍品採購對象我們有沒有去做一個釐清我想跟委員報告我已經一再的說明我們清查過去20年來所有有關火藥原物料的採購的案件我們都是採公開照片我們沒有為誰"},{"start":15845.689,"end":15863.688,"text":"本席站在您的角度我也思考也許國防部部長真的位高權重沒有管到那麼細的採購但是當一件奇怪的案件出來他也許合法但是他不合理"},{"start":15865.855,"end":15890.257,"text":"兩件不合理的採購出來當幾件不合理的採購連翻出來國內想問三個為什麼嘛第一 為什麼這些廠商過去都沒有參與這些營業項目突然間這兩年搖身一變變成這些營業項目那這些廠商之前都沒有投標經驗這兩年突然間只要國防部開標他就來投標 而且就中標以及第三 我們想問為什麼這都集中在台南高雄"},{"start":15891.806,"end":15905.157,"text":"我覺得這才是部長你接到一個 兩個 三個之後你應該要去釐清應該要去請相關的部隊 單位啟動內機內控來瞭解一下整個流程到底有沒有什麼環節是出了問題"},{"start":15906.584,"end":15929.93,"text":"而不是今天我們在做臨時提案之後你才講是說未來會這樣遵守那如果說你覺得這個臨時提案有道理的話我們沒有因為這個臨時提案就要這樣遵守即使沒有這個臨時提案我們也都會有這樣的要求啊因為這本來就是合約裡面部長他要進行的一個完成的事項之一啊本席現在跟你講的是從過去到現在你不用講20年我們就講為什麼這兩年"},{"start":15932.751,"end":15939.302,"text":"因為好多的廠商被踢爆出來就是這兩年他變更了他的營業項目才有辦法取得投標資格而就順利得標嘛"},{"start":15942.056,"end":15947.959,"text":"跟委員報告 我們剛剛也報告了就是過去20年來所有有關得標的廠商也都會有在我們的相關的標案裡面第一次得標也會有資本額也只有一百萬這樣的等等那主要的就是因為取得不易我們要廣增商源那我們重點是在我們用合約來管制因為他如果沒有相當的把握他不會願意來投標的因為他會被列寧"},{"start":15969.572,"end":15983.139,"text":"相關的這些履約上面受到了一個對他不利後果的一個風險難怪大家都一直講是說您就律師個性然後不斷的就重複法條跳針我們現在在講的就是一個不合理的狀況如果說你今天這樣講都可以自圓其說的話部長 請容許本席再提醒你"},{"start":15992.523,"end":16002.761,"text":"如果你這樣講可以自圓其說的話今天媒體的關注以及委員的質詢還有社會大眾的輿論就不會一而再再而三認為說這些狀況都是有問題的"},{"start":16004.633,"end":16030.42,"text":"就不會覺得說一個資本額十萬元的茶行來投標千萬元的國防部的資訊採購然後大家覺得說沒有問題報告委員他沒有投標千萬元他那個投標金額得標的金額只有六十幾萬只有六十幾萬不要誤導啊只有六十幾萬六十幾萬不是錢六十幾萬當然也是錢那就對啦所以我剛剛也講了我們對於他的投標的一個規範不算到採購法"},{"start":16031.44,"end":16043.61,"text":"我們也有相關的人都會在旁邊在他從事回復的時候會注意我們也對他做人員安全查核我們所有應該要做的事情我們都有注意到你的行業相對來講您過去行業比較容易理解的例子"},{"start":16048.334,"end":16073.793,"text":"我想國人大家都很希望釐清國防該支持我們支持我一直過去到現在我在這個委員會都講一樣的話國防該支持我們支持因為我們一起捍衛中華民國的安危但重點在於是說如果說今天預算暴增了三倍然後裡面開始有一些藏污納垢的地方當有人提醒的時候我們希望看到是有內積內控的狀況就講嘛 您過去是律師"},{"start":16074.654,"end":16100.237,"text":"如果說一個大公司突然間兩年內他增加很多的法律委託案件法律顧問案件結果得標的全都是突然間在一兩年以前做馬桶的做茶葉的做裝潢的他去考了律師執照這一兩年取得律師執照沒有任何其他履業的律師資格之後突然間他就可以承攬到大公司的律師委任那你在這個行業三四十年律師你不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":16101.238,"end":16122.339,"text":"你不會覺得說奇怪為什麼這一家大公司過去都是委託有經驗有能力的律師但這一兩年突然間很多都考上律師之後然後馬上就可以委託到這家大公司那如果說這樣的話國人才會覺得懷疑是說為什麼茶葉裝潢的馬桶的都可以在國防部這邊拿到這些標案"},{"start":16124.453,"end":16147.468,"text":"預算暴增是事實2017年就是比2026年成長了三倍之多的預算預算多了除了人事費用多以外更重要很多採購案也多了那採購案也多了就這些採購全都集中在這一些一兩年跳出來的這公司而且過去不是從事這個業務跟項目的這才是國人覺得奇怪的地方啊"},{"start":16151.443,"end":16179.787,"text":"委員是要我回答 無話可說我們都有相關的一些集合制度也會接受審計部的一個會不會再有另外一個我們現在講一講會不會過兩天又跑出另外一個以前不是從事這個行業的然後突然間又拿到千萬億以上的標案你有沒有信心可以掛胸脯拍保證告訴國人說沒了有關這個火藥原物料的這個部分我們已經一再的說明我們所訂的相關資格都是如此沒有說尤其是第一次進口你要他"},{"start":16181.276,"end":16197.689,"text":"怎麼樣 你說實際的證明還是如何我覺得政府其實還要拿到輸出當地政府的輸出許可證明嗎如果說用這種態度的話 國人大家都在看那就讓這把火繼續燒吧看我們還可以燒出多少國防部沒有被燒出來的秘密 謝謝"},{"start":16198.47,"end":16215.637,"text":"我們國防部都盡得起監督好不好 謝謝委員的指教謝謝 接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在請葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢"},{"start":16228.285,"end":16239.326,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 林委員好"},{"start":16240.367,"end":16260.293,"text":"局長好 局長你應該很清楚美國的美中經濟安全委員會每年都會發布報告是作為政府施政和國會的問政所以你應該也知道USCC在上個月11月18號發布了年度報告內容多達733頁其中光是提到台灣的次數"},{"start":16260.973,"end":16268.756,"text":"大約就包含了整個目錄大約有1223次甚至還在報告的第11章中專門寫了一個討論台灣問題的專章根據USCC的年度報告裡面所謂提到跟台灣有關的內容大多是中國的威脅有極大的關聯所以我想局長對這個報告應該是有研究吧其中它上面有具體的建議美國國會應該指示國務院"},{"start":16290.026,"end":16294.992,"text":"啟動一項非武器支援服務的對外軍售的項目用於加強美國在台灣周邊的嚇阻的能力這個部分上次11月24號委員會質詢的時候本席就有請教過你們的副局長當時可能是因為報告才發表"},{"start":16307.746,"end":16316.189,"text":"國安局還沒有充分的掌握整個有給本席也沒有給本席一個充分的答案所以今天我想要請教局長你認為USCC報告裡面所謂的非武器資源的軍售指的是什麼還有對台灣的國家安全又會有什麼樣的幫助"},{"start":16326.172,"end":16352.377,"text":"我想第一個先跟委員說明一下USCC它是美國國會成立的一個專家委員會他們針對各種的情勢有提出一些言析跟建議不過再次強調它只是一個專家委員會有一些委員所提到的這些項目跟內容美國政府並沒有公開的去把它列為目前即將要推動的一個政策所以比較像是的是報告公佈之後它有帶動一個話題"},{"start":16353.897,"end":16367.413,"text":"但不是一個正式的政策議題所以我自己認為我以國安局局長的身份假如說在美國政府都還沒有一些相關政策立場的時候有太多公開評論的話比較不恰當那請委員可以理解"},{"start":16368.223,"end":16390.071,"text":"好那我再請教一下就是說像美國總統任期內都會對外發表了國家安全戰略NSS報告這份的報告可以說是全世界最重要的一份的文件因為對照NSS報告公佈之後觀察美國的實際的戰略的佈局大部分都是會有完全的遵照這樣的執行"},{"start":16391.371,"end":16406.463,"text":"所以川普也在最近12月4號發表他這一次川普2.0版的2025年國家的安全戰略雖然報告從第一任的總共大概68頁大約出現台灣三次但是精簡到現在整個總頁數大約只有33頁但是"},{"start":16409.205,"end":16431.353,"text":"報告的內容提到台灣大約有八次所以對台灣的關心其實是前所未有的所以川普對這一份的報告中雖然他反映了美國對台灣的戰略定位顯示是整個是有一點提升的但是美國過去在這個報告文件中一直都是強調說與同盟國的之間的共同的價值但是現在"},{"start":16432.213,"end":16454.822,"text":"他居然就整個傾向到基於利益還有交易的關係與亞洲盟友的合作而非普世價值例如台灣的價值就只強調了半導體產業的經濟重要性還有軍事戰略的地理的價值所以因此我想請教一下局長就是我們一直在強調與美國的民主共同的價值"},{"start":16455.342,"end":16470.019,"text":"美國在意的卻是我們的經濟和地理戰略的價值那會不會在雙方的對話上有造成了一些分歧你認為美國川普總統的2025年的國安戰略他們是怎麼樣如何重新定位台灣的呢"},{"start":16470.499,"end":16486.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問就這次美國的國家安全戰略一般在解讀上認為它是比較所謂務實的現實主義比較重視的是透過實際的力量來維護和平的存在我們把它稱為是務實的現實主義也才會"},{"start":16488.084,"end":16505.124,"text":"稍早有陸續跟幾位委員說明的美國開始跟區域友盟來加強一些防衛上的合作以及透過一些安全協定來推動一些聯演聯訓提升跟國際友盟的那個整合的程度跟聯合運作的能力這大概是第一部分跟委員說明的"},{"start":16505.524,"end":16532.416,"text":"那第二部分是在這個新版的國家安全戰略之下那可能台灣也必須要了解到這個發展的趨勢怎麼樣來提升自我防衛能力也是一個非常重要的一個環節那可能在後續我們在觀察美國的國安戰略的推動我想正如委員所說的因為它國安戰略它有經過跨部會的一個討論所以它會變成是一個比較清楚的一個藍圖"},{"start":16533.496,"end":16557.771,"text":"那我在專報也特別引述了印太司令帕帕羅上將的一個說法那他們在整個後續的執行規劃上三個重點一個當然就是維持區域裡面重要的水域航道的開放性那第二個就是美國會進行必要的前置部署那第三個就是相關國際友門也應該要承受更大的一個承擔更大的一個防衛的責任"},{"start":16558.371,"end":16584.849,"text":"所以我想在這樣的清楚的戰略之下以及他們相關的政策說明之下那台灣可能在第一島鏈也要有自己的清楚定位那提升相關的國防能力能夠跟區域有合作發展的動向大家可以一致性不要變成台灣是一個好像搭便車的一個角色好 那最後一個問題我想請教一下局長就是說那這樣的話依照國安局的判斷2027年中共會不會發動武統呢"},{"start":16588.719,"end":16610.715,"text":"就這個部分之前主要是因為美國的情報機關跟美國的印太司令有去提醒在中共對台的武力整備過程當中2027年是一個重要的時間節點要特別注意那因為美方的說法是習近平要求解放軍在2027年以前要準備好相關的能力"},{"start":16611.155,"end":16635.646,"text":"那至於2027年會不會真正的犯台他可能考慮到的不只是能力的建置還有包括到政治的經濟的社會的跟國際情勢相關的環境所以大概目前在討論這個2027年是否中共會犯台大概是剛剛跟委員簡短報告的這樣的一個角度請委員參考好那謝謝局長那我有請那個顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":16641.182,"end":16641.89,"text":"是 我也用好了"},{"start":16642.864,"end":16648.908,"text":"部長接下來我會有一個比較混亂的有一個問題因為現在發生一個混亂的現象我想請教一下部長就是說官兵授訓的期間戰鬥家級還有主管職的家級到底是需不需要停資這一個問題因為本席這邊了解到各單位的財務室的做法都不太一樣請問部長依照現行的規定官兵授訓的期間各項的家級到底還是不是可以繼續支領呢"},{"start":16673.047,"end":16696.287,"text":"您講的授訓是指短期的還是他到紙餐或者是就短期的是短期的授訓嗎我想這個部分是不是志願室報委員他如果是屬於長期的授訓沒有在那個植物上附帶那個植物加緊是的確是依規定是需要先暫停"},{"start":16697.779,"end":16706.124,"text":"你說長期的你說短期的是需要被暫停的沒有沒有短期不用長期的你的短期和長期的界線在哪裡"},{"start":16706.957,"end":16735.645,"text":"就是說最明顯的例子就是他去紙餐從事這個紙餐或者戰院等等的這些他離開他的這個職務了嘛因為他沒有這個職務就不能夠領取嘛但是他如果是短期的授訓但是他還是在這個職務上那就沒有這個問題因為據我了解是如果授訓超過30天的話就要將停之嘛所以這樣的話是30天如果超過30天就停止支點是嗎"},{"start":16738.693,"end":16766.014,"text":"是的這樣的話我覺得這樣也很奇怪因為如果國軍官兵受限於這個的話結果反而會造成他們繼續想要知領戰鬥加級或者是地獄加級的話竟然會想說國軍可能就是不想要去受訓了其實去受訓是很好的他可以加強他們的技能嘛所以如果是說他們這樣的話不能領的話這樣不是就是變成說他們根本就是都不願意積極去受訓嗎"},{"start":16768.716,"end":16783.741,"text":"應該說關鍵的判斷點是他有沒有在這個職務這個職務上假設他還是有這個職務他當然就可以領取就像我們現在第一家級也是如此他就一定要實際在那個地方服役那如果說他沒有在外里島服役那他這個"},{"start":16784.981,"end":16802.157,"text":"現在就會被停止支領這個地域家計所以他這個授訓應該問題是問說他會不會因為他的授訓而離開那個植物如果他沒有因為授訓而離開那個植物他應該就可以領但是如果他離開那個植物的話"},{"start":16803.078,"end":16826.664,"text":"调理那个职务他就不能够允许所以这有一定的规范吗因为我看各单位的财务社好像做法都不太一样而且很多官兵去授训其实连慰劳假都是要被扣的嘛对不对所以像有时候授训太长的期间的时候大部分都没有办法慰劳假讲的就是在纸那种要到纸餐啊这个深造那个他长期的去到学校那个"},{"start":16829.184,"end":16854.059,"text":"又是不一樣的他就是他等於是去了從事一個紙餐跟站院這些等等的到那邊去做一個長期的一個訓練那就這個部分那沒關係那可以給我一份報告嗎就是針對他的加擠方面還有他受訓多少時間的時候他就是沒有支付加擠就相關的規定我們再跟委員做個報告OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":16865.244,"end":16886.959,"text":"好 謝謝我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":16887.719,"end":16898.427,"text":"委員如果有指定期限者從期鎖定另外今天也特別請軍備局跟中科院提供軍備局之前有自己做過RDX的這個成本報價然後還有中科院HMX的你們做的一些成本報價相關的規格提供給本席辦公室好不好因為你們都有做過嘛你現在又有招標那希望你們提供確切的"},{"start":16917.475,"end":16928.314,"text":"資料還有他的那個金額因為那個你們自己就是在我們未來可能可以做一個對比那今天的會議到此結束 散會謝謝"},{"start":16950.304,"end":16974.098,"text":"因為你有使用的那個方向"},{"start":16977.27,"end":16980.862,"text":"長得不一樣的話就是有不同的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}