{"error":false,"id":["17148"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17148,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17148","日期":"2025-12-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-22-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2025-12-24T08:37:07+08:00","結束時間":"2025-12-24T10:39:00+08:00","影片長度":"02:01:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d6f793b294c43507070dac74ff5911ae03fa04411479d882a058ead7e0c2e17b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二）委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（五）委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（七）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。\n（八）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。\n（九）委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十一）委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（十二）委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十三）委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（十四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十六）委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。\n（十七）委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十八）委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（十九）委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。\n（二十）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。\n（二十一）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十二）委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（二十三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（二十四）委員葛如鈞等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。\n（二十五）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」案。\n（二十六）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（二十七）委員王美惠等19人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。\n（二十八）委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（二十九）委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（三十）委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n（三十一）委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十二）委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十三）委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。\n（三十四）委員林月琴等29人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案。\n（三十五）委員游顥等17人擬具「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案\n二、審查\n（一）委員顏寬恒等18人擬具「校園飲食均衡及健康促進法草案」案。\n（二）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:37:07 - 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國家科學及技術委員會政務副主任委員林法正列席就從福衛八號成功升空我國太空產業發展科研推動與人才培育策略進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1560.339,"end":1587.811,"text":"本次議程有柯志溫委員等17人提出質詢均經國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員林法正教育部高等教育師副司長曾欣源經濟部產業發展部署長周宇勳及相關人員及其答夥說明另有委員林沛翔林倩琦徐欣穎提出書面質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員所提書面質詢後相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報三"},{"start":1588.452,"end":1594.327,"text":"對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹以順便答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1596.227,"end":1620.543,"text":"请问各位委员上次会议议事录有无错误或遗漏之处没有好那议事录确定今天的议程是继续审查学校公参法草案相关草案共35案包括的由半域委员等16人拟据的案子委员马文君等17人拟据案子委员鲁明哲等24人拟据案子"},{"start":1621.483,"end":1648.415,"text":"委員王玉明等17人擬聚委員洪孟侃等20人擬聚委員黃建豪等20人委員楊瓊英等21人委員林倩琦等21人委員鍾嘉斌等17人委員郭玉琴等16人委員張雅玲等17人委員柯志恩等21人委員陳培宇等26人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1650.316,"end":1667.494,"text":"委員王宏威等20人委員葉元芝等20人委員陳秀寶等20人委員林依菁等33人委員劉建國等17人委員徐巧欣等19人委員邱振軍等25人委員羅廷瑋等20人委員萬美玲等19人"},{"start":1671.678,"end":1688.939,"text":"委員葛如君等17人委員吳佩奕等20人委員陳亭飛等16人委員王美惠等19人委員陳金輝等22人委員徐玉珍等23人委員張家俊等19人"},{"start":1690.04,"end":1711.647,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人委員鄭天才等17人委員伍麗華等18人委員林月琴等29人委員游皓等17人擬拒了相關的營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法等草案今天又繼續的有提供了"},{"start":1714.222,"end":1740.956,"text":"顏寬恆委員等18人擬聚的還有吳思瑤等17人擬聚的相關草案將進行逐條的審查那我們首先介紹在場的委員陳秀寶召委柯志恩委員萬美玲委員林怡瑾委員"},{"start":1743.752,"end":1770.228,"text":"郭育琴委員謝榮介委員吳佩奕委員其次介紹今天與會的官員首先是教育部部長鄭英耀 鄭部長好 政務次長張料萬堅國民及學權教育署署長彭復原"},{"start":1774.059,"end":1799.72,"text":"還有介紹第一次來的官員運動部競技運動司科長藍嘉萍環境部化學物質管理署科組長林松錦環境部環境管理署科長陳振昌"},{"start":1802.9,"end":1830.697,"text":"農業部農糧署副署長陳啟榮農業部畜牧師檢任計政馮一月農業部漁業署檢任計政鄭淑雯衛生福利部國民健康署組長劉嘉秀衛生福利部食品藥物管理署檢任計政廖姿婷"},{"start":1833.123,"end":1836.191,"text":"保護部參事汪南君好 謝謝"},{"start":1843.241,"end":1870.696,"text":"本案已於114年3月20日詢答完畢並於上個月11月27日開始審查本次新增委員顏寬恆等兩個提案草案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同的審查委員如有臨時提案請於10時30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例就不予處理"},{"start":1873.576,"end":1897.413,"text":"現在審查學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案相關草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀所新增提案條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併的宣讀那我們現在就到台下大家一起來進行審查"},{"start":1923.629,"end":1932.86,"text":"官僚們盡量封鎖綠茶館資訊項目行銷項目以下的項目下層選項項目在高度展覽的三個項目中選項目選項目在高度展覽的三個項目在高度展覽的三個項目"},{"start":1946.561,"end":1969.119,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":1974.027,"end":1977.875,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1989.96,"end":2002.233,"text":"好各位委員還有行政官員我們先就上次的一個決議部分來做一個說明讓大家在"},{"start":2003.294,"end":2029.209,"text":"進入到後續的審查當中可以以接著前面的一些已經有的成果來繼續的或是這些指引來繼續來做審查那我們上次是在11月27號所做的第一次的逐條審查那我們已經達成了下面的一個決議就是法案名稱是"},{"start":2032.892,"end":2058.751,"text":"是以學校等一下學校午餐及飲食教育條例是確定的這個版本是以柯思恩還有陳培鈺等幾人所提案的名稱來去通過的我們另外第二個決議是各張張明軍部採納所以這邊也是一個重點"},{"start":2060.652,"end":2084.289,"text":"另外呢我們有把第二條那第一條因為是保留保留那我們等一下也可以等一下來討論不然是我們先就已經有修正有共識的部分是在第二條第二條呢大家可以看一下第二條是本條例所稱主管機關在中央為教育部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市"},{"start":2086.051,"end":2108.993,"text":"為縣市政府 以下就稱地方主管機關那主管機關掌理學校午餐及飲食教育之規劃推動及監督等事項本條例所定的事項涉及到中央各目的事業主管機關等執掌者那這個部分現在大家應該有一個這個分條就是各條的這個對照表好 還是需要再念完嗎 怎麼樣"},{"start":2110.598,"end":2128.188,"text":"我在先說因為這第二條是我們當初已經做修正的我建議我們後來第三條就是因為它有涉及到第一條的對象就是營養午餐要實施的對象所以第三條也是因為這個原因"},{"start":2129.349,"end":2141.961,"text":"所以沒有審那我在想說我們是不是回到把第一條就那個保留的部分就一起開始來審就確定那內容那現在我就做完一個說明請大家不好意思 昭薇我現在可以發言嗎"},{"start":2144.272,"end":2159.182,"text":"因为我觉得在审这个案子之前我还是觉得需要教育部来做几个厘清真的是因为我们当然希望所有的法案通过完之后听过三途之后就能够确实来做执行那从上一次上一次是11月几号"},{"start":2161.031,"end":2184.395,"text":"几乎一个月的时间这三十天当中我现在不晓得当然我们当然没有收到教育部来个别来沟通所以我也不晓得教育部现在目前对这部法的态度到底是如何那最重要的原因就是我们现在教育部的意见到底等不等于行政院的意见因为我们行政院没有版本这个东西对我们过去来说你不要说像AI或者是说学特别是学辅法我比较说"},{"start":2184.915,"end":2203.221,"text":"學輔法那時候根本就已經在行政院在路上了已經在路上了所以我當招委的時候讓學輔法可以這樣子大家來去做可是這一部法目前為止我只要問一個行政院的文字各方面是不是等於行政院的版本一個多月行政院沒有任何動作教部沒有任何動作我不希望我們坐在這邊是審個心酸的"},{"start":2205.362,"end":2223.817,"text":"因为还有一个很切实的问题我也知道营养师还给我们非常多非常多的想法我们也都会在等一下的条文当中会有一些但是一个最根本的一个问题到底这个实施完之后目前的营养午餐的这个补助到底会发生一些的一个变动那现在已经搞到"},{"start":2224.537,"end":2251.983,"text":"我们这个已经太多太多太多三读之后已经不够已经没有办法去执行的然后最重要是这些我们通过完之后等一下会有很多外加的这些的金额那到底这些金额来说的话现在才划法要用哪一个版本我自己都搞糊了然后呢中央跟地方怎么分配我觉得这些东西如果没有厘清最重要是没有行政院出来这个版本我们就这样子在这边审然后到最后结果"},{"start":2252.603,"end":2276.612,"text":"完全是不一樣的話我會覺得我們現在這個時間點上面是有一些的浪費啦所以我覺得這個上次到這邊我覺得我以為這一個月當中會有一個突破起碼行政院那邊的態度或者是我們這邊的部分還是沒有嘛所以我就覺得我們自己關起門來在這邊自己審開心的這個東西還是一個非常重要我覺得需要教育部來做一個釐清啦否則的話真的是要想一個心聲的啦我不知道是怎樣啦這個還是需要來做一個說明啦"},{"start":2279.608,"end":2303.339,"text":"好 謝謝柯志文委員的一個在正式進入到第二次的審查所提供的意見那這邊因為有過去聽到彭署長的一個意見不過我還是請行政部門或是說請部長來直接講因為他本身事實上目前據我所知是他本來就已經是"},{"start":2305.14,"end":2328.642,"text":"有政府部分就是讓大部分都補助起來啦雖然他權限是屬於地方的但是大部分的時候如果地方不夠大部分都是政府中央政府在補啦不過我還是想因為我是從聽聞的但是我想說有行政部門來主動的來去做一個正式的說明是正中央他包括這個版本但沒有行政院版本的時候代表什麼意義這個是部分好就這樣子那請彭署長就說明對對對"},{"start":2329.363,"end":2355.783,"text":"好 謝謝召委剛剛柯委員所問的這個問題真的是這個本法在推動過程中會有非常重大的要因可能以後的裁員要一起考慮那現行柯委員所關注到的已經執行的74億那一個錢在114年就是中央政府補現在"},{"start":2358.206,"end":2363.543,"text":"明年這74億就劃歸請地方政府能夠編列"},{"start":2365.859,"end":2394.96,"text":"再來如果這個法過的話還要約略有44所以還要再增加44所以整體而言地方政府他在115的時候會有74如果再外加這今天過的可能會外加44億會達到118億那這個中央付多少因為在那個財化法的那個劃分上"},{"start":2396.021,"end":2417.29,"text":"就已經初步釋權是地方自治的部分所以會有這樣的一個考慮但其中國立學校的部分那個少額會由教育部來負擔所以地方自治的部分剛才講的將近110億左右110多億總額是118億可能扣掉國立學校的高中的部分"},{"start":2419.494,"end":2440.628,"text":"這個118目前都是地方所以可能委員也可以考慮一下這一個情形所以我們有一種情況是這裡可不可以如果今天一直審大家其實對於福國立民未來孩子的健康也都非常的照顧重視可以審他的比較國家方向的部分"},{"start":2441.388,"end":2455.482,"text":"比較具體涉及到甚至經費以及過於操作面的部分是不是容地方跟我們再談一下因為這個地方自治的情況蠻明顯的例如現行就有十個縣市"},{"start":2456.503,"end":2479.231,"text":"是餐費自己處理所以如果我們談到了後面條文有涉及到餐費如果現在才化法情形再加上地方又已經是自己處理餐費那對那10個縣市它是外我們今天講的118億分擔到他身上他又要再外加一筆等於是他自行的餐費之外他還要再外加"},{"start":2480.131,"end":2505.379,"text":"所以整體而言我覺得地方要賦能的同時經費也給了可能還是要滿尊重這個原屬於地方就非常認真在執行的法制這是第一點行政院這部分的經費情形跟現行地方的情形做個綜合說明謝謝委員 謝謝所以我們才需要行政院的版本"},{"start":2506.892,"end":2534.008,"text":"妳沒有版本我們現在在這邊討論妳也不可能讓她等一下再問一下那個謝榮介委員再說明一下因為現在等一下另外一個問題是在於說現在布版跟行政院可能會有什麼差距嗎這部分再講其實沒有版本等一下那就先請謝榮介委員先說因為在這個租屋補助內政部一尊國土屬意就是它今年年初就有發文"},{"start":2535.185,"end":2556.763,"text":"那上半年就下半年要進入的時候他就發文給各縣市說這個補助就改成地方縣市政府要補貼多少就是基本上他就是接受在野黨的財化法的版本所以他才發這個文嘛那現在變成行政院經駐了這財化法不動"},{"start":2558.072,"end":2581.481,"text":"所以我們現在變成這44億他也不敢給我們承諾那將來這個是全部歸由這個中央來處理或是說按照新版的財劃法不管最後通過誰的版本實施誰的版本那這些錢就是基本上就是地方要自籌然後整個財政劃分劃下去的像台南市"},{"start":2582.521,"end":2608.512,"text":"他把這個國立的高中職現在六度大概只有台南市是國立的那當時就是賴總統當賴市長的時候他說台南市財政困難就叫你們教育部中辦拿回去辦所以變成這個錢就是由中央在處理那財化法通過以後跟這個共產費還有包括這些補大概他就是全部要歸到地方政府他們現在不敢說"},{"start":2609.853,"end":2630.732,"text":"他不敢說啊 對不對他如果說就等於說 財劃法就是準備要做啊所以他們不敢有版本 他們要怎麼有版本呢你不就要說得清楚你一去說得清楚 總來就是這樣啊那只是財劃法各縣市能拿多少 現在不知道而已嘛沒有那個答案 所以現在大家都不敢說啊"},{"start":2632.179,"end":2653.245,"text":"好 這內容上面好像是行政院他們本本因為在財化法上的爭議不過我們也知道如果現在它是因為沒有公告了但是我們也知道行政院它自己說如果它的版本被列入到沒有 沒有 我現在是說的是行政院的財化法"},{"start":2653.965,"end":2671.9,"text":"行政復原的財化法如果被來審的話它是說他們是對地方的補助是最多的比像現在我們在野黨的版本等等的是這樣的情況所以應該用而且它已經有做一些相關的調整等等的那現在的一個意涵是"},{"start":2674.639,"end":2701.769,"text":"我們 我想去問一下教育部長部長 請問一下那你現在的這個布板跟現在我可以講的就是因為你們沒有跑過程序課事實上彭署長他們有經過你們有通過的就是這樣一個建議版本因為沒有沒有真的聽過到布板但是用文字是用建議文字那這個所代表的意義跟你們有考慮到像你們自己所提出的那種有跑過考慮到說財化財政方面的處理嗎"},{"start":2703.352,"end":2718.211,"text":"跟這個主席報告還有我們各位委員報告陳如我之前在這個營養午餐第一次在審查的時候我也跟各位委員報告過以目前來講中央跟地方是合作的"},{"start":2719.333,"end":2742.111,"text":"我們怎麼樣去確保學生的飲食能夠安全健康我想那是教育部一定一直來的一個立場也感謝委員對我們學生中小學生的飲食的一些關心以目前來講我們現在譬如說大家所關心的"},{"start":2743.072,"end":2761.994,"text":"学校的营养午餐是不是用这个国产的食材可溯源的这个机制我们基本上都掌握了也就是说我们透过成大协助开发的这个食材的一个机制的登录还有所有的我们的减和目前国产可溯源已经达到99%"},{"start":2764.136,"end":2785.587,"text":"然後我們這個系統上也提供我們各縣市包含偏鄉在營養午餐他們一個菜單的一個設計各項這個菜單設計裡面的營養成分我想這個還是要跟委員做這個報告那第二個就是說我們目前地方裡面跟中央還是有一些這個"},{"start":2788.41,"end":2814.344,"text":"大家都關心那譬如說我們目前所看到已經有十個縣市他們本以這一個各縣市的一個財源跟縣市首長他們對營養午餐的許多的一些這個政策上的一個推動已經有十個縣市他們自己營養午餐已經提供免費的一個營養午餐我想這是第二個補述那第三個以目前來講"},{"start":2815.365,"end":2828.495,"text":"我們確實國教署每年都編有74億用來支持經濟弱勢的國小學生的營養午餐然後包括三張EQ的一些經費還有偏鄉"},{"start":2831.436,"end":2857.261,"text":"這些營養午餐所需要的人力等等事實上以國教署還不止這樣的一個補助但是我們確實剛才委員所提的我們現在因為屬於地方自治的一個前線這個在整個中央跟地方在經費上它確實有剛才委員特別提到才化法它所形成的在未來裡邊的這一個部分也許"},{"start":2858.041,"end":2882.629,"text":"在國教署我們教育部的一個立場對這些經濟弱勢或者偏鄉的我們怎麼樣去給予協助但是其他我們也鼓勵各地方縣市政府他本以他的一個財政跟對協同的一個照顧我相信這一個部分由我們教育部以現在的一個未來想像的一個機會我們確實已經"},{"start":2885.829,"end":2912.106,"text":"會有一些力有未待我們也期待地方承擔更大的一些責任所以也感謝委員的關心事實上我上任這一年半來彭署長一直在跟地方22個地方縣市做許多的地方的座談溝通但是目前一直確實都沒有還沒有共識包含我們這個提供這個午餐的一些業者包含"},{"start":2912.566,"end":2938.436,"text":"各地方縣市它確實還沒有共識所以也因為這樣我們很難在行行政程序裡面提出一個驗版的這樣的一個營養午餐我想議題大家要關心但是怎麼樣給學生吃得更健康 更安全能夠讚用我們在地新鮮的食材給學童有一個更好的照顧我想我們立場都是一致的就這樣補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":2941.971,"end":2963.68,"text":"我先回應一下我這邊跟大家講一下因為這邊其實柯市政委員他們所關心的部分當然是裁員的問題可是一個很重要的原則是我們並不是在訴求免費的營養午餐這是重點因為營養午餐只是他提供了這樣子一個"},{"start":2965.42,"end":2983.732,"text":"國家去保證它的食材包括它甚至飲食教育還有經費上面對於這樣弱勢偏強的輔助最重要的原則是使用者付費大家應該清楚是使用者付費那使用者付費的情況看到全縣的處理的話看到它本身是地方政府為主的"},{"start":2984.312,"end":2998.327,"text":"那因此目前22縣市當中有10個縣市有10個縣市它已經說它財政夠了它就自己把它全部都是免費的那有些不是免費的部分呢就是其實上很重要就是使用者付費就是說"},{"start":2999.485,"end":3027.733,"text":"你如果本身的部分是在正常情況下是說就是使用者包括自己從學校或是從家長裡面他都要讓孩子來去提供這些午餐這是一個重要的原則那我們並不是要訴求我們這個營養午餐法通過之後並不是就是免費的營養午餐法類似像這個狀況所以因此這個裁員部分應該是我的理解是這樣子的那這一部分我就提供的是那包括經濟弱勢跟偏鄉是基本上"},{"start":3028.633,"end":3048.733,"text":"教育部都有在做相关的补助的那我就提供这样的资讯好 谢谢那现在刚才的有现在回应吗那个我只是想说因为我们还没有实时讨论第一个没有人一直强调这是免费营养午餐法也没有人一直强调这是使用者付费啊因为这样子可能会造成误解我想先理清因为我们根本还没有进来审啊对不对"},{"start":3049.353,"end":3065.378,"text":"也許那個召委的版本是使用者付費但是我至少沒有聽過因為已經就像您講的有那麼多的縣市目前是免費的我們目前沒有針對經費有一個看法跟共識我先釐清一下"},{"start":3067.915,"end":3083.244,"text":"好 陳秀寶委員謝謝學姐當然營養午餐法非常地重要這個有關我們的孩子在學校用餐的一些相關的食安但是剛才其實我們的部長也有報告過以目前來講在我們營養午餐法還沒有定下來之前"},{"start":3083.624,"end":3107.957,"text":"我們在公餐的食物裡面我們透過午餐契約的方式廠商必須提供我們在地的三張EQ的產品相關的法則我們都訂得很清楚然後對於就是我們這個混沖還是假冒的產品這些我們都有一個很重的法則的規定在那我們有豬肉儀表板來確保我們的學童在學校吃的肉品的安全"},{"start":3109.225,"end":3125.699,"text":"剛才講到一個很重要的重點說為什麼沒有院版是因為現在才劃法還沒有版本還沒有很確認那好中央跟地方的這個裁員的分配沒有確定之前那我們在執行這個營養午餐的時候相關的經費事權也沒有很明確"},{"start":3126.42,"end":3128.982,"text":"所以署長這邊有一直召開地方在做這些相關的討論但是大家還沒有共識我們的五川專法訂下來之後我們裡面的規定補助這些相關的執行的方面其實跟經費是息息相關"},{"start":3142.253,"end":3167.846,"text":"那如果說我們不管是之前的這個74億或者是新增加的44億的部分我們都應該讓教育部跟地方是有充分的討論有這樣的共識之後我們來討論這個營養午餐法的時候才會根據說事實是這樣子做事權是這樣子做分配之後那剛好跟我們的午餐法是契合起來的那我想你現在很急著要審視因為我們覺得營養午餐法很重要"},{"start":3168.266,"end":3184.523,"text":"但是如果沒有願版的一個來跟我們自己的版本大家去做討論的話我覺得說這樣子將來我們就是對於補助對於財務的分擔對於整個的執行面都沒有共識其實也不符合現在的現況以上"},{"start":3190.509,"end":3212.689,"text":"我还是要特别强调从11月27号到现在这一个月当中我们都在蓄神阴阳午餐可是这个月里面当中我没有收到任何行政部门来跟我们做沟通所以我不晓得这一个月摆在这个地方到底有没有更积极的一个做法但是我针对刚刚部长所提到的当然我相信很多的十个县市里面还有非常多人教育部也跟这个各县市里面该提供补助的都是有"},{"start":3213.169,"end":3230.155,"text":"但是這個營養午餐說實在的周偉也是我覺得最大的部分還是應該在於營養師專業的把關這個才是整個營養午餐法非常重要的所以專業的把關當中那我們未來等下提出的很多版本為什麼說跟裁員有很大的一個關聯因為這樣我們就認為在很多地方恐怕營養午餐不是至少一人我都覺得可能要兩人"},{"start":3236.317,"end":3259.968,"text":"这个数字等等之类还有这个所谓的营养师到底要做什么样的一个专业的工作我们如何确保他们的专业能够在学校能够得到发挥这是整部营养午餐法非常重要的一个精神但是如果这样的部分里面我们可能会因此增加很多的这些的裁员然后这个裁员当中如果没有办法得到一个行政院他们考量"},{"start":3260.948,"end":3276.109,"text":"中央地方而且在這個所謂的這個裁員分配完之後所做的更加可以往後執行的層面的面向那我們大家每個立委都在這邊根據自己的想法裡面把它說出一個我們認為很合適的一個數字"},{"start":3277.791,"end":3301.148,"text":"而这个数字当中政府又做不到因为我们没有这个院版所以这才是我最担心的为什么是说要有一些的确定然后最重要一个大的确定就是行政院的这个部分而且你刚刚已经分得很清楚了有关于中央的部分宣示性的部分里面我们当然很好可是宣示性的部分不是我们要的我们要的是真的是在地方裁员下放到地方之后每一个营养午餐"},{"start":3302.269,"end":3308.174,"text":"包括你補助給這個學校學校再轉給廠商還有包括偏遠地區營養師的這個問題還有廚餘的問題現在很多地方都完全拒收廚餘這些都是一個地方真正在執行面上裡面所面臨的困難這才是我們今天坐在這邊修營養午餐法裡面最大的目標就是幫地方幫助養然後給我們孩子可是我們如果今天坐在這個地方很多先前的問題沒有辦法得到一個釐清的話我們要坐在這邊審審出一個很漂亮的數字"},{"start":3331.832,"end":3344.441,"text":"沒有辦法執行還是沒有用嘛最重要還是一句話願版什麼時候給我們出來那願的態度到底是怎麼樣不然我們真的還是覺得我坐在這邊是省心酸的 真的是真的是在心酸啊願的沒有給我們裁員然後到底這個部分那到底要怎麼樣處理我覺得這個還是要給我們一個更明確的說法啦好 外媒林委員"},{"start":3354.099,"end":3379.751,"text":"好 不要嘆氣我想我去綜合一下我們在教文去審這個營養午餐專法其實我想從上一屆再或者是更之前大家都非常關心我們有志一同關心這個議題無非就是希望透過專法的設立讓我們的營養午餐能夠吃得好吃得安心 吃得營養去為孩子的健康來把關這個共識都有但是我覺得剛才聽到這樣子我覺得我把它做一個結論就是說"},{"start":3381.011,"end":3401.571,"text":"我們剛剛也跟部長也溝通過我們今天在這裡審每個委員其實都非常地認真也很細緻在看但是按照這麼多的版本我們把它整合好就算能夠跟著現在教育部的建議版把它審查完了但是第一個我們要看可以被執行率有多高"},{"start":3402.171,"end":3421.376,"text":"可執行性有多高現在都是攸關到不管是中央的態度院版沒有出來地方上各縣市縣行的狀況不一然後縣市的裁員的狀況現在也不明這樣的情況之下我們就算在這裡審到時候到底被執行率跟可執行性有多少我覺得這都是一個問題"},{"start":3422.356,"end":3451.422,"text":"那又我們今天審查完了那各縣市現在的狀況是不同的那如何去因應我們審完的版本然後以及他們可運用的經費能夠達到我們去審議的這個我們想要得到的結果我覺得這個可能我們都要去審慎的去思考要審大家所有的時間在這個地方而且我們的版本也都有了可是現在審查出來我想教育部也有教育部現在的看法那院版看起來我覺得院版到現在為止這麼多的時間給它完全都不出來"},{"start":3452.242,"end":3462.873,"text":"我覺得這個願板的態度其實也願板其實行政院我覺得態度也很可異所以如果我們今天要在這裡這樣子審那意義是怎麼樣我覺得召委可以再考量一下主席"},{"start":3471.094,"end":3490.812,"text":"在這裡還是跟大家講一下喔這個昨天12月23號我們在程序委員會其實我們的才化法的修正案已經被否決了第五次了啦我想這個部分還是要還是要跟大家說一下已經被否決了第五次就是連副委的我想主席您也是舉手否決的其中之一喔"},{"start":3491.352,"end":3512.779,"text":"我想這個才化法在修法之前其實國中小的營養午餐其實本來就是地方自治的一個事項中央本來就是應該透過一般性的補助款給予縣市政府但是現在直接又要加在所謂的我覺得可能大家又跌床架屋的又要要求中央"},{"start":3513.819,"end":3536.469,"text":"我個人是認為剛剛其實部長也有講目前已經有10個縣市他們是自行補助包含桃園市宜蘭縣新竹縣市彰化縣南投縣花蓮縣澎湖縣金門跟連江我想這個已經證明在地方他們在營養午餐的政策上面的確他們也是有能力有財源"},{"start":3538.05,"end":3567.125,"text":"但是現在大家好像上一次我們討論到第二點那現在好像又回到了大體討論那我真的覺得在大家在要求所謂的院版或者是講到才化法那我剛剛再提到一個重點就是才化法的修正案昨天在程序委員會上已經被否決了第五次就是這樣所以其實討論了這麼多我也不知道大家要怎麼繼續下去今天我們的這個這個部分以上"},{"start":3568.716,"end":3596.098,"text":"吳佩儀委員這個我同意剛剛前面委員說的真的坐在這邊好幾次都覺得好心酸喔因為我也不知道我們在審查什麼我們要審查的重點剛剛都有提到第一個要有裁員第二個要可執行要知道怎麼執行但是重點是這個行政院主計處8月29號就把總預算送到我們立法院來了今天已經12月24號了我們到現在總預算沒有審查"},{"start":3597.679,"end":3609.75,"text":"那大家都知道你沒有審查你新增計畫新增裁員要怎麼使用我們今天在討論的這個法上次我們都有發言我也支持我有版本啊那新增裁員在哪裡呢什麼時候要審查總預算呢已經12月24號了我很心酸的再次請教我們要趕快負起責任來啊"},{"start":3622.776,"end":3635.571,"text":"不能 新增預算 新增計畫我們都不通過然後一直在講說我們未來還要增加什麼增加業務就要增加裁員裁員在哪裡請在討論的時候要負責任的說清楚還有委員會發言嗎業源之外"},{"start":3644.096,"end":3669.821,"text":"對啊 我也是覺得蠻心酸的所以希望行政院趕快來溝通啦然後依法趕快按照立法院通過的三讀的法案來變預算不然大家卡在這邊也不是辦法所以希望行政院可以負起責任但我覺得我們修法最主要就是要解決一些現狀的問題嘛譬如說現在到底學生吃得夠不夠營養還有譬如說五蜜他們的行政工作有沒有其他人可以來分擔等等有很多現狀"},{"start":3671.141,"end":3692.218,"text":"急迫的問題需要解決所以我覺得雖然說現在行政院一直不來溝通害得總預算沒辦法省但是該做的事情還是要做大家還是要思考一下怎麼透過修法的方式把問題來解決那裁員部分另外法律法過了之後大家還可以來溝通跟他討論啦我覺得我是認為還是要積極往前走啦 謝謝"},{"start":3694.619,"end":3712.548,"text":"好 現在還沒有委員要發言如果沒有的話我現在要請剛才委員們所提出來的問題我想要請教教育部第一個部分是說請彭署長就針對目前我們總共22縣市那10個縣市是免費的那還有其他縣市他們是採用什麼樣的"},{"start":3718.452,"end":3723.836,"text":"收費或是怎麼樣的財源來源是請說明一下然後那平均一個營養午餐大概是多少錢這平均如果那個數字出來然後第二個部分就是針對像教育部你們也提出來的一個這個建議版本那這個建議版本你們的當初的立法目的是什麼是不是已經有針對現狀的問題"},{"start":3747.747,"end":3771.14,"text":"現狀的問題 來去做的處理 那你們先也請把現狀的問題 來做一個提出 在這部分然後 第三個呢 就是針對像就是 人家說營養師 或加上這次的執行秘書這部分 那你們預計 如果到這個部分 就是大概是44億要外加進去的部分 那這部分是22縣市嘛 等於說 你平均每一個"},{"start":3771.96,"end":3776.102,"text":"平均每個縣市大概是多2億多2億的情況那這個是不是怎麼樣的一個分配是就你們看到是各縣市的財政負擔可能目前以舊的財政發放法來救的話能不能引起然後第4個問題是針對廚餘的問題廚餘的問題這一部分因為我因為本黨有一些就是也是請教了"},{"start":3800.65,"end":3809.552,"text":"國教署 那這一部分呢 似乎是跟他們跟環境部這邊呢 跟農業部有一個比較更近期 更進步的在做法 因為就在因應今年年底跟12 到1月明年的1月1號的新的做法 那應該是有個方向 據說是下禮拜一就要開一個會 就是有環境部去做廚餘 因為廚餘的最終的責任是在 是在環境部 那我們 我就先做這邊 那是就"},{"start":3826.156,"end":3851.552,"text":"國教署這邊能夠已經知道的部分是不是可以跟大家來透露一下剛才四個問題好不好謝謝昭惠剛剛六位委員所提我一併跟大家做個報告首先委員所提現在10件事免費其他22件事大概怎麼處理基本上有一些情況大部分的情況都還是向家長收費有一些情況他會局部補助"},{"start":3852.432,"end":3866.142,"text":"他沒權額都由政府負擔譬如說他一餐40塊全部由政府負擔這是一種剛剛那時的縣市那有一些縣市他會負擔少部分譬如說補貼你5塊10塊"},{"start":3868.823,"end":3883.309,"text":"所以剛剛講的有三種全免或是全有家長出或是第三種家長會幫忙抱歉 地方政府會出一點沒有全幫安眠第二個問題是現在平均餐費各縣市"},{"start":3884.409,"end":3896.193,"text":"不太相同 我們蒐集之後發現大部分就是45到60好不好各位委員 因為現在彭署長在講的非常重要的問題我想大家就先靜一靜聽一聽好嗎這是講到裁員的這個情況現在的狀況是什麼 先繼續一下"},{"start":3901.396,"end":3918.037,"text":"剛剛講那個時限是之外的另外兩種情況也說明了平均餐費目前大概是45塊到60塊之間那另外第三個問題是這個立法時那我們也一直在研究委員的版本跟我們自己也在解決現場跟地方政府一起努力"},{"start":3919.539,"end":3925.307,"text":"這個版本目前委員提的或是我們中整的會解決什麼現況問題嗎基本上現況的問題其實在108年的時候我們發現最嚴重的是城鄉問題"},{"start":3935.409,"end":3956.136,"text":"第一個是城鄉問題就盛傳哪邊吃20多塊的餐哪邊已經吃到了60多塊的餐諸如此類所以我們用三年的時間設了100多個廚房幫忙花了60多億去發現可以解決所以專法當時才比較有信心說"},{"start":3957.156,"end":3978.996,"text":"偏鄉那個很獨特台灣的狀況我們有方法了但是不是只有靠錢可能包含設廚房人力還有相關的運送部會合作還有線上的一些系統來看餐有沒有是熱騰騰大概都解決我們就比較有信心繼續再往下收集一些第二個就是可能的食安問題"},{"start":3980.097,"end":4004.794,"text":"所以食安問題這其實不是郵交部獨立能解決行政院有一個食安半廈的各食安五環計畫跟所有今天被點名在這上面的四大部會都在裡面我們是用非常系統用系統再去處理食安問題也就是說你今天吃了一道菜你要能夠被溯源溯源前那個已經被檢測諸如此類"},{"start":4007.196,"end":4024.717,"text":"当时106的时候才60多70多的比例现在已经到达快99了那类似这样因为有努力所以说专法有很多其实是就我们觉得可行才敢放换言之那些可行现在已经在做"},{"start":4026.158,"end":4042.207,"text":"所以有一些急迫性的是在這多年來已經用措施在配合委員給我們的經費解決了所以為什麼行政院現在在處理的過程中他在處理是因為整體那個才化的劃分過後"},{"start":4043.288,"end":4070.113,"text":"是那個的問題否則以現在來講在113年年底以前所有委員關心的是我們是盡量用院的角度整合力量 實案問題用部的所有經費資源跟地方合作處理營養師問題甚至偏鄉的營養師怎麼樣讓他可以有營養師的類似的人力去協助如果他不上山但我們也還是有方法禁用了100多位類似這樣最後一點是"},{"start":4071.033,"end":4089.914,"text":"可能大家会关切说那这整个有没有可以在精进的地方会让本法变成有一个更往前的精神我们有时候会去对照日本韩国的几十法这一些会发现说营养师的比例有没有可以再做什么处理事实上国内跟"},{"start":4091.558,"end":4114.782,"text":"大家的國情不一樣我們有1200位的健康老師他在營養教育上我們已經有獨特在課綱以來的教育所以營養師在國內的營養師專法裡面有他的角色所以這不一定那麼的一定跟國外但是我們也很吸取經驗甚至也在這一個月我也個人去比較"},{"start":4116.192,"end":4140.075,"text":"也看看他們吃什麼他們幾菜幾湯我們吃得怎麼樣最後我要特別歸納說我們在現況上能夠處理的其實現況上的各法跟相關措施跟委員中間歷來歷屆召委一直排這些會議其實已經一直有改良跟增進現場的提升跟食安的控制最後一點是"},{"start":4141.857,"end":4148.401,"text":"那個營養師的部分其實剛剛講的44億是有六項其中一項是營養師不是44億都營養師所以剛剛謝謝委員也給我這一個說明的機會營養師我們的方法可能會增加236人我們現在算了算吧會再增加200部的建議版本如果照有一些委員建議的可能會多達到300人"},{"start":4172.617,"end":4195.668,"text":"因為大家看到的問題上所以那個不會佔到44億啦老實講但是有一些是參考一些國家到底是用人算是用班算大概有這一些顧慮而已其他的人數大概我們有算了一下那最後一點廚育的問題目前環境部也是很努力在處理有分三階段在年底前一段明年一段116年以後一段那就在116年以後"},{"start":4199.75,"end":4216.251,"text":"整個國家對廚餘的怎麼樣一個去化政策下來規劃這三段政策所以大概環境部在處理之後完成修法或法規的訂定之後我想各部會包含教育部都會全力來配合以上趙偉所提的四點問題跟您做個回報 謝謝"},{"start":4221.214,"end":4242.733,"text":"因為就照順序好不好就照這個順序那就陳秀拔委員柯之恩委員范雲委員好 謝謝謝謝主席我還是要再講一下其實剛剛剛剛署長這邊在補充報告的時候我又想到一件真的剛剛其實大家都有提到關於這個新增的44億裡面有一部分是我們營養室要增加員額就是236元到300人"},{"start":4246.796,"end":4267.472,"text":"那增加是一定要的因為對於營養師對學校對營養主餐來講我們營養師的他的相關的參與是非常重要我自己也提了一個修正動議就是在我們的飲食教育政策學校飲食教育政策裡面要增加限職營養學校營養師代表來參與"},{"start":4270.854,"end":4295.928,"text":"但是我們現在有個很大的問題就是說我們的預算都還沒有審我們新增的部分都沒有那這些營養師要如何增加員額進來要如何來分配這些工作包括我剛剛提的我新增了這個修正動議就是希望說現實的學校營養師代表要來參與這些政策會那你完全沒有這個費用完全沒有這個經費完全沒有著落那新增根本不可能啊"},{"start":4297.069,"end":4320.428,"text":"接下來我們所討論的這一些是討論也是空的對 心酸的我剛綜合不管是部長或是署長所提到的很顯然你們的想法是認為我們今天審這些營養午餐說實在的有一大半部分的部分你們透過過去的努力其實都已經達到了好像很顯然是這樣的意思 對不對"},{"start":4321.269,"end":4348.406,"text":"你们已经做了非常多的努力了也考量各方的裁员了所以营养午餐的这个我们所提出来的你们都已经做了那么多的努力就是要告诉我们他们都已经百分之七八十都可以达到了而且目前裁员还未定的状况之下面很多事情很难再更进一步的去去做一个划分没有错所以就可能要思考一下我们今天坐在这边讨论这一步法的一个原则可是我还是必须要强调"},{"start":4349.386,"end":4372.135,"text":"即使你們有達到了包括3Q3張EQ的補助費用你們撥給學校學校撥給廠商那當然有很高的比率是給廠商啦那個性是都有差異啦那學校其實也沒有拿到這些部分你們都有考慮過了同意但是這一步裡面其實我們要透過這一步法來修的我說實在無非就是有非常多的營養師還有剛剛袁氏所提到的這個"},{"start":4372.895,"end":4391.854,"text":"做这个除工的问题专密的问题这三个人等的这个问题是在食材之外你们比较少去琢磨的那如果是这个样子的话我们今天讨论的这个东西百分之八十你们都认为达到了然后呢我们那三项的人员"},{"start":4392.655,"end":4419.826,"text":"显然在这一次的征法当中我们可能会我们每一个委员条例当中都会给他们非常多的这个确定其实是最重要是在他们全责上面的一个确定不要让他们去做太多太多额外行政的一个琐事那我们就必须要厘定清楚嘛那你审证不法当中有很多你们已经做到的但是有很多这个所谓原额上面的一个确认还有这个职权上面的这个确定当中"},{"start":4420.606,"end":4442.175,"text":"那我们怎么达到这个目标吗我觉得我们现在最大的目标就是希望能够让整个的体制能够更加的完善嘛那如果这一步法透过这样的一个讨论把文章都修出来然后裁员没有确定又没有办法那我们是不是大家应该来思考一下解决刚刚那个问题那很显然愿不愿意提出愿版可能是"},{"start":4443.035,"end":4471.176,"text":"是不是部长可不可以承认就是因为愿觉得已经做得够好了所以不想去做提出这个愿板然后呢还是因为什么样的理由所以迟迟都等不到一定要把你们的问题说出来嘛你们刚刚讲那么多丰功伟业我同意啊但是到底但是我们这边所有一排的委员也希望把三个职称的这样子的一个他们的工作也给他确认我们是把彼此做一个妥协我们才知道该省怎么整不法嘛大家各取自己所重视的这个范围嘛否则"},{"start":4471.756,"end":4484.436,"text":"花很多时间然后省一些你们已经做到的然后呢没有花时间在一个我们大家所重视的那这个不是我们坐在这个地方把这个整个的营养午餐制度把它变得更完善的一个方式吧我们是不是可以做一个更有效率的方式"},{"start":4485.489,"end":4504.466,"text":"好不好 部長謝謝委員我想確實它就是因為財化法的一個關係讓我們在整個經費上的一個調配它確實是面臨到挑戰也就是說剛才委員所提的營養師國教署本來就有編一些對偏鄉的一些特別的照顧"},{"start":4505.166,"end":4533.105,"text":"但是屬於地方的錢者如果才會把這些所有的錢到地方的時候我們也期待地方能夠承擔更大的一個責任這也是為什麼彭署長在地方裡邊在折衝裡邊確實一直都沒有供應比如我們講營養師專密儲供那以後的三張EQ事實上已經到從政府來階段性已經到99%了地方也都可以做這個錢也到地方了那地方還是希望說這個還是"},{"start":4535.826,"end":4548.891,"text":"要中央來補助嗎整體來講就是說中央不可能有一個無上限的經費所以他才會就在那裡我想做這樣一個補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":4555.617,"end":4578.376,"text":"應該是順序人到您再由部長說我也先呼應剛剛吳佩儀委員講的因為其實我們這個會期是預算會期到現在依法應該12月15號前要審完現在已經都沒有審了我們再審一個JOY部我們沒有院版的營養午餐法"},{"start":4579.977,"end":4592.905,"text":"因為之前我問教育部一些法案的進度教育部都說這個會期在忙著預算所以但是現在我們沒有審預算問這個但我想我們既然要審我也問一個跟財政相關的關鍵問題雖然剛剛朝偉說是什麼自負是不是"},{"start":4600.258,"end":4627.6,"text":"使用者付費我是不是那麼的認同那我也提醒昭偉昭偉我們不是小學生因為你上一次管我們就是有人走來走去然後今天又管我們說剛剛張亞玲委員來其實我們是在討論法案的審查的議題然後你就我們不可以講話因為署長在講話署長用麥克風大家都聽得到耶我們是很小聲耶所以昭偉未來不要把我們當小學生好吧您教的是大學也不是小學嘛對不對您好"},{"start":4630.042,"end":4657.6,"text":"回来讲关于营养午餐法我觉得有一个关键的东西就是刚刚秀宝委员提到的营养师不是要进入细节虽然就是关于餐费到底是自付谁付目前还不清楚大家的共识可是营养师的部分我们来看一下我的版本是如果要自办的话1000人以上未满者跨校民众党版是500人以上一人那500人以上一人"},{"start":4658.701,"end":4677.155,"text":"我們辦公室去要來的資料如果照民眾黨版的話全國營養師公會有4909人依照民眾黨版的話需要的國中小跟高中要3196名幾乎所有的營養師公會都要下去了"},{"start":4677.515,"end":4699.898,"text":"那這些人的經費是蠻龐大的一個經費我不知道教育部有沒有試算過先不管這個錢是中央出還是地方出因為你要提升品質先不要講食材的錢提升品質營養師設置應該是大家的配置式那這個人事費"},{"start":4700.959,"end":4726.79,"text":"是誰買單到底是地方政府然後還是教育部他是約聘僱還是公務員這個錢我也想問問看教育部有沒有試算過多少錢我知道之前教育部因為我要提一下上一屆就是我最早提了這個法然後我還提了兩個版本一個是跟民團的推動的團體一起提的一個是我個人的版本所以"},{"start":4728.51,"end":4748.747,"text":"當時教育部說有跟地方政府討論所以不知道教育部這邊有沒有跟地方政府討論關於這個營養師配置的這個要花多少錢然後地方政府有沒有意願來負擔因為如果照教育的法規的話教育是地方事務應該是要地方負擔那這個錢是數十億嗎 這個人事費"},{"start":4751.969,"end":4778.72,"text":"還是多少是不是可以請教育部如果依照民眾黨版的500人這個高標準我覺得非常棒如果我們負擔得起的話但是財政上到底是多少先等一下我本集我現在先解除一下我也是委員之一我也是可以發言好 我就回答一下剛才范議員的部分提到本黨提到說500人以上就設置1名至少設置1名"},{"start":4779.58,"end":4797.775,"text":"教育部本的話就是自辦午餐也是學生能助打550人以上那差額就大概就50人就一個學校來講的話那這個本版我提出來的當然是一個以目前的學校的規模來講的是一個可能是合理的打但是這個跟"},{"start":4797.995,"end":4827.355,"text":"因為目前布板其實差異也沒有到太多我的重點是錢如果做得到我很支持但是我跟大家講剛才教育部已經說了是236人如果是教育部的版本的話大概就是增加236人那個數據是非常清楚的那我就說到這邊另外的有關於我現在回覆到我的主席位置現在就請署長是不是就剛才委員們的一些回應"},{"start":4828.075,"end":4851.81,"text":"那這邊的話可能特別要針對像營養師啦 廚工我綜合一下就是說營養師專密跟廚工這邊的確是本就是這次修法當中有看到部的建議文字當中的一個特色你們本來也有喔 對不對你們也是有喔然後另外一個本次如果要進行的修法當中還有一個就是大家在"},{"start":4852.831,"end":4879.037,"text":"法案名稱上面出現的一個重要名稱是叫做飲食教育就是飲食教育那我這部分就提供了這個一些那就請署長這邊 召委不好意思我發言一下好嗎我這樣想喔如果我們現在已經要開始討論到這麼細喔那我知道你們剛剛在討論那個營養師那個部分已經在很後面的法條了所以我們現在是要開始這樣子嗎那剛剛其實柯真委員也有提到一個大方向的部分是不是我們要先就大方向確定下來"},{"start":4879.697,"end":4897.836,"text":"那否則其實你剛要談營養師我們可能每個人都要都有營養師的部分要發言啊所以先把大方向先確立下來這樣會不會比較好因為現在還在詢問階段那等一下就請不是 現在如果要詢問我們好多問題要問喔對 就沒有 我說詢問是說就剛才大家說那個裁員嘛沒有沒有 你要先處理柯子恩委員他講的是大方向嘛是是是"},{"start":4898.937,"end":4920.292,"text":"大方向就是裁員還包括說這部法當中有沒有其他的部分在於說還有我們先那個昭瑩不好意思妳先聽我說好不好我覺得因為剛剛每個委員都有發言那我之所以沒有發言是因為我們現在在裡面每一個條文像我自己也都有版本如果我們現在就要細緻去討論什麼五百五十人 一千一百人然後裁員 營養師這樣子那我們就等於要開始討論了"},{"start":4923.374,"end":4938.693,"text":"那但我們現在還處於覺得這樣子的這一步伐的這個目前的可執行性 必要性 大方向所以是不是先處理一下看柯志文委員的這個提議好不好對好 那現在還沒有委員要發言好 那個張雅琳委員"},{"start":4940.291,"end":4967.599,"text":"這一點我也是呼籲萬美玲委員啦就是我想因為如果你今天要到10級的細節的話那我們就可以開始就等於是進入實質的審查了但是我們現在是基本的大方向上面都還沒有確定到底要不要進入這些細節所以我也認為我們不應該進入這些細節的討論這樣子好 謝謝各位委員目前在針對我們現在在繼續審查的一個意見那我現在說明的部分在於說"},{"start":4970.709,"end":4987.889,"text":"剛才回應到柯志文委員的一個意見是在於說因為部長已經說了我們或是署長已經說了我們這一部目前教育部對於他們經過108年以來到現在就是非常努力的在完成了大部分都已經完成了那個食材的部分"},{"start":4991.025,"end":5006.672,"text":"但是在人力的部分 包括像營養師專密跟這個儲供這部分是一個新的這個是一個重點那另外我想要再 剛才我說要補充的是說這部法其實也是跟教育部講你們在所謂的飲食教育這邊"},{"start":5008.273,"end":5036.605,"text":"應該還沒有很落實所以這個是本法當中目前有時是在題目法案名稱上面就也是加入這些部分那我現在就提出來說這個地方如果把它真的有訂入專法就這兩個部分是可以應該是作為一個過去如果我們這部法都不審就是說我們這部法不審然後就是現在反正就像這樣教育部的目前的這個現狀制度就繼續的去這樣進行也是可以啦"},{"start":5037.145,"end":5055.685,"text":"那我剛才提出來就是要釐清這兩點那這兩點部分大家當然可以考論到那是不是也請署長或是部長部長或署長這邊呢就提供像剛才的在營養師這邊我在說你們有這個內容上面也有放進來嘛這是現在過去的可能比較沒有特別"},{"start":5057.203,"end":5068.768,"text":"講到的 那飲食教育這部分也是沒有的 那你講完之後我們就來可能要討論一下 我們是不是要繼續再審我的程序這樣處理 大家覺得可以嗎好 那現在就請署長或是部長來說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":5073.393,"end":5088.758,"text":"其實大方向上我們覺得可能還是要照本委員會的決議剛剛有請委員要我說一兩點不算細節但是可能會供委員做決策用的譬如說現在全台灣3400個國中小裡面有快要1200個是六班"},{"start":5093.7,"end":5112.706,"text":"以下的學校如果每個學校都設營養師那就是3400個營養師現況有780位左右所以這樣減下來還有2000多位如果像有一種版本要2000多位另外多要設那就要增加20多億就不是2億"},{"start":5114.837,"end":5136.076,"text":"就是有一种版本是要增加到两千就是三千四百刚刚那个范云文有一个意思是说有有有一个版本希望能够尽量每个学校都有最多的时候是这个样子这个是细节了回到刚刚委员讲的"},{"start":5136.997,"end":5155.391,"text":"人力這件事有三種人力如果我們像以前這樣用措施型來處理那才化法或是我們的預算審議如果也有進展的話或是按照預算法當沒有審的時候怎麼處理等等"},{"start":5156.372,"end":5175.574,"text":"我們有沒有辦法用措施像以前委員會要求我們的繼續努力那我們下一步來努力人力這方面的跟地方一起再來研究有沒有一定要修到法裡面才能做要來等嗎那這也是以前委員會覺得說那有些事情我們就來努力"},{"start":5176.415,"end":5185.885,"text":"那我們就不用等來努力措施也好 計畫也好有跟地方一起來協調這也是一個方向如以前的三四種計畫我們也逐步完成了國產食材 用國產豬我們用登錄的情況它那一錶板也是百分之百四年來都是這個樣子"},{"start":5194.955,"end":5215.419,"text":"好用契約來控制諸如此類也就是說大方向上的努力方向可不可以就委員指導的有要努力的這三種情形這三種人力我們用本委員會繼續來給我們指導我們繼續來努力有沒有現在有一些有困難之下就要在專法上要"},{"start":5215.839,"end":5232.239,"text":"花委員們這個時間而不定要花時間在討論的話也可以參酌以往經驗採措施行以上建議 謝謝請問一下剛才的那個飲食教育試試目前已經也在實施了"},{"start":5235.131,"end":5261.208,"text":"署長 要不說是次長飲食教育目前是不是也在實施了我跟委員報告一下其實現在學校衛生法的第16條因為我們現在所採用的很多文字避免跟學校衛生法做過多的衝擊所以有一些是兩法互相參照換言之現在學校衛生法本來就在推飲食教育我們是努力在推那現在更融入課綱變成素養"},{"start":5262.709,"end":5284.959,"text":"所以委員剛剛有擔心說那這樣會不會飲食教育就沒有辦法有根基其實我們一直在推那如果要透過委員的提醒像今天委員裡面有很多文字我們抓取出來再繼續用一些措施跟地方政府的重要的會議局處長會議或是一些專案會議其實都可以往前走不用等我覺得都還是可以繼續走"},{"start":5289.808,"end":5312.368,"text":"這樣看起來謝謝署長的說明這樣看起來我匯整一下是說目前包括的這個三種人力這部的特色那目前我們可能會如果法上面要大家可能都還要吸收不同的意見而且他可能要階段性的逐步的這樣去完成的情況那這樣子"},{"start":5314.89,"end":5333.727,"text":"再裁員或是說大家還要再討論尤其是說沒有院版的情況之下那是不是這個就可能用但是我們可能要做一些什麼決議的方式這邊先等一下再說但是我們先如果我們方向會往那邊就這樣進行那第二個部分呢就也確定是飲食教育現在在所謂的學校衛生法也是已經有在推動嘛對不對好"},{"start":5335.208,"end":5344.456,"text":"那 大家如果確定這這樣的事情的話是不是 當然就會出現到說 欸 現在變成說 另一部專法好像也沒有那麼的必要性了會不會出現到這個問題嗎 還是"},{"start":5347.578,"end":5365.188,"text":"還是說我們就暫時擱置是時機不合這樣的情況時機還不宜專法是有保障那現在是剛剛眾委員還有剛剛我們也就做個補充說可能有一些包含財化法的那個還要還要一點時間但是我們有一些重要的事情其實也可以不用等"},{"start":5365.908,"end":5394.017,"text":"我們用一些措施像以前各委員會各召委給我們的要求我們就逐步努力也今天做出了一些局面是不是人力今天有提醒那大家也有版本我們再繼續把我們今天收集到的各版本跟地方政府去可以續談我們就不用通罰好像每個地方要增加到那麼多錢但是就人力部分我相信地方政府也會覺得有迫切感我們來跟他談往那方面來努力"},{"start":5394.617,"end":5410.342,"text":"好 這個是一個方向那現在請林議員然後再來就是郭玉琴委員發言好 謝謝主席我想重上不管是教育部或者是我們很多委員的發言重上所述"},{"start":5410.882,"end":5438.864,"text":"我覺得這一案真的牽涉到中央跟地方財源跟市權很多的劃分的問題地方有沒有一致的共識我看這個還需要很多的協調跟評估所以我想特別是財化法如果問題獲得解決我想再來排審可能是一個最好的方式所以我是不是在這裡具體建議我們今天就"},{"start":5439.665,"end":5465.524,"text":"不宜審查 我具體建議是不是今天就不要審查我提這個建議等一下請主席來處理 謝謝好 我呼應一下剛剛這個宜菁委員講的喔因為我在想剛剛其實說這個我們的營養午餐法到底有沒有必要性我想有必要性但沒有急迫性沒有急迫性是因為我們還有很多的部分可能要跟地方也要達成"},{"start":5466.565,"end":5484.001,"text":"部分的一些公司在裁划法的还没有确定的一个状况之下释权的部分那当然其实中央有更清楚的一个角色针对这样子的一部专法那不管是食安资讯的揭露或者食材教育等等这是属于全国一致性这个我们同意在我们的这个营养午餐"},{"start":5484.922,"end":5506.016,"text":"專法當中我們可以大體上來做更進一步的討論是沒有錯但是問題是今天如果是卡在包含剛剛提到的原額也好營養師也好人力的配置也好這些都是跟財源相關但是在財源相關目前我剛剛就講了昨天在程序委員會上我們的財化法的修法已經被擋了第五次了"},{"start":5506.776,"end":5527.728,"text":"連副委都沒有辦法這個部分我就想說我們都沒有辦法有一個聚焦的焦點今天就要來審查這個部分我想真的大家又在原地踏步以上呼籲一下這個移情委員我是覺得今天是不是等一下就是我覺得是可以再緩一緩以上好 柯森委員"},{"start":5529.767,"end":5549.279,"text":"我觉得不是不审我觉得是需要更多很确切的一个讯息因为毕竟这一部法从我第九届当立法委员开始就已经开始提出来然后这个过程当中我还是要回应一下教育部其实也在实财还有在学生的所谓的"},{"start":5549.859,"end":5561.764,"text":"飲食安全 安全層面其實做了一些的努力這一點無庸置疑但是我們還是強調這一步伐不是只有食材的部分我們延伸出還有非常多特別是對於營養師的層面我還是大膽的講一個你們告訴我未來可能要新增260人"},{"start":5569.643,"end":5590.383,"text":"36然后你说要2.8亿那这样算起来一个人要100万这不太可能啦怎么可能你今年约聘都是约你今年聘的都是约聘你几乎是全国四分之二是约聘每月营养师大概是56万一年那有经验可能到70万了所以不可能多聘一位就要100我觉得这个数字上面我是有一些的疑"},{"start":5591.345,"end":5604.825,"text":"我沒有說怎麼樣我只是說數字上面以這樣細算來看會有一些的疑義還有包括裡面很多委員我覺得是不是很重要的因為我們剛剛說的食材的部分我們覺得是"},{"start":5605.854,"end":5634.8,"text":"做了很多的努力了饮食教育照位所在乎的饮食教育里面的特别的确切的部分我们大家提出了非常多的这些的修法的部分显然你们在第四条部分里面应该可以再做更细致上面的一个推演我刚刚只是提出万一我们今天不省我们要再一次省的时候教育部在这个过程里面要做出哪一些的努力我觉得这样才有用嘛对不对否则不会说第九届要提的第十一届还要提表示我们很希望说在我们刚刚所在乎的这些"},{"start":5635.6,"end":5660.939,"text":"这些的部分里面是不是可以在周围在下一次排审的时候能够增加更多这样子的一个讯息而且我强烈的推荐就是说全国的这个营养师协会里面的这一些他们是对于他们在学校当中有非常多的看法我真的觉得这个署长可以多花时间跟他们了解一下他们现在所需因为他们的整个目标也就是希望孩子能够吃得很好"},{"start":5661.559,"end":5680.301,"text":"然后呢我觉得是是否可以说再一次排审的这个空档的时间能够再多做这些努力我还是要强调蓝绿在这边对于这部法大家都有一个共识但是只要扯到这个才华法大家就意见分歧对我们的立场来说三读通过的这个条文"},{"start":5680.802,"end":5702.987,"text":"把三毒通过的条文的经费放进去总预算我们大家就可以好好来审不是不审这一次如果硬要扯上总预算的话我们还是要再次表明我们的立场但是撇开这些回到我们自己就我们的专业当中的话如果周围做的决议是还可以再利用时间再去排审的话那我的建议是对于每位营养师要增加这些钱"},{"start":5703.747,"end":5720.869,"text":"是不是更精准的一个算法对饮食教育的这个每个所调列的项目还有营养师未来所要做的这些东西可以让我们更精致化这样才会让我们在有机会下次排成时候大家的版本上面会更聚焦来做一个确切的讨论好不好"},{"start":5721.892,"end":5742.404,"text":"好 外媒民委員好 謝謝昭葦我想後續到底要不要繼續排審這個我覺得我尊重昭葦的處理不過我覺得幾個點要講第一個點是我覺得教育部在這幾年當中也許有署長在這個營養午餐食材的部分或者飲食教育的部分的確其實滿用心一直在做"},{"start":5743.144,"end":5764.478,"text":"我們透過其實在質詢也好這個議題的交換意見也好還有看到教育部跟地方的溝通這幾年也有在做不過我們回到教育部今天也知道的我們所有委員所關切就是很多人力是不是應該要專職來把它補充進去讓大家都能夠在自己的專職上面顧好營養午餐所以這是一個重點"},{"start":5765.459,"end":5790.263,"text":"所以剛剛提到的不管是營養師 不管是廚工 不管是午餐的殖密等等我是一個建議啦 就是說當然我還是在強調要不要續審這件事情讓召委去決定不過我覺得假設我們認為這個專法一定是必要的而且是重要的但是它有沒有那麼急迫性而且這個急迫性是建立在有很多的條件都還沒有成立"},{"start":5790.663,"end":5819.613,"text":"然後呢可能地方中央的溝通財源經費等等還有就大家今天都關心的這個財化法的部分那財化法部分我覺得這個部裡面其實如果在經費上面其實也是很關注嘛那就應該要跟行政院講啊就是說以後啊立法院三讀通過的預算就是好好依法編列那我們趕快依法審查然後呢大家就都有錢可以用了所以呢我想我們回到這個主題來看就是我們希望啊是不是啊後續喔其實我有一個建議啦"},{"start":5820.333,"end":5847.771,"text":"教育部是不是可以针对我们现在未尽之处营养物材未尽之处就是在人力包括我们大家很重视的营养食等等或许可以其实提一个专报或是看教委这边再排一下我们可以把这些问题都把它提出来我想在国教署或者部长这个地方或许有一些是在我们修法完成之前立即其实就可以下去做或者立即就可以下去跟这个地方沟通的或许这样子会更快一些"},{"start":5848.331,"end":5852.459,"text":"所以以上那個要不要繼續審查這個交委再做決定吧"},{"start":5853.328,"end":5875.232,"text":"好 我提供一個建議啦因為今天的審查其實跟財化法這部分當然會有一些影響但是我覺得影響的部分我們先把它先先放這些財務這部分等一下我覺得重點今天是我們可能也可以透過這個機會來做一個就請現在利用這個機會大家都委員的同時在這個會議"},{"start":5884.211,"end":5904.83,"text":"這個場地齁 這個地方事實上蠻難得的我在想說 我們是不是包括營養師其實不是一個 剛剛是一個重點是營養師在整個營養午餐或是學校公餐裡面的扮演的角色我們是不是現在就可以請就是先做 我們是不是先爭取一個意見在於說 我們現在做一個也許我們現在就 也許說暫時的"},{"start":5906.371,"end":5919.213,"text":"先 我先想 大家先休息一下吧我的一個意見方向 我跟大家可以溝通一下就在於說 因為機會很難得我們這個地方喔 可以就是說做一個意見上面的一個溝通的一個機會"},{"start":5921.69,"end":5937.123,"text":"今天就說剛好利用這個機會但是我們把它轉成例如說是一個大體討論的一個部分就是透過這個地方來講但是我們的省人部分就暫停到這裡主席休15分鐘我們先等一下15分鐘我們先看看後面怎麼進行好不好先講完話可以再休息嗎"},{"start":5938.625,"end":5950.633,"text":"主席我們是立法院委員會不是學術研討會所以不是大型溝通無明確目的的討論會剛剛萬美玲委員建議的專報我覺得很有道理針對專報把財務各種狀況分工教育部的溝通狀況營養午餐你們認為應該要改善人力配置等等做一個仔細的專報"},{"start":5967.984,"end":5987.354,"text":"然後大家就各自每個人的觀點來質詢嘛譬如說我的有勝實啊等等喔這個部分那再來審查會不會更有共識譬如說那個召委認為說使用者付費有人認為說應該不同的做法那這個都可以透過質詢讓教育部回答他們的評估啊好 那"},{"start":5988.014,"end":6015.95,"text":"那個張雅琳委員在講完我們就準備就先再做後面的處理好不好那先張雅琳委員謝謝我想就是說我也提供另外一個方向大家可以起來討論啦就是說因為我想大家今天都非常在乎我們小孩有沒有辦法吃得好嘛那營養有沒有均衡嘛還有我們的飲食教育我想這是不分藍綠跨黨派的共識那大家也都非常希望可以積極的進入有前進的感覺嘛有進度所以我想說我們是可以透過一個臨時提案把今天大家的一些要求我們可以把它寫下來"},{"start":6016.63,"end":6028.225,"text":"然後透過這個提案來要求教育部持續的去更新跟這些相關的進度這樣子好 謝謝張阿玲委員我自己現在回復到一般的委員的身分就是說因為這個機會這個機會有一個難得在於說剛才"},{"start":6034.033,"end":6062.718,"text":"大家如果用專報也很好但是我們是委員會我們如果做過大家在這次的一個逐條審查的委員會的程序當中我們做成一個共識就是說我們等一下呢是針對要用也許像措施法就是暫停審查但是說措施法的部分措施的部分呢給一個像張愛玲委員所說的到底是哪些方向的部分因為真的這麼多委員現在都說這個很難得 至少在上午時間我們來提供了一個一些想法"},{"start":6063.498,"end":6084.165,"text":"就是他怎麼去改 包括他下次要提出來的時候 又更有具體方向我覺得甚至 等一下也是馬上可以做一些詢問是蠻好的啦 但是我們現在就現在我的意見也發表完了 那我們是不是就暫時休息休息10分鐘 好不好休息10分鐘 那個秀巴韋你們有活動是不是10分鐘差不多 還可以嗎 還是太早了要休息30分鐘不行 不行 不行 不行 會散掉"},{"start":6094.264,"end":6114.322,"text":"那現在我們繼續再討論一下不然現在做結論好不好如果我們今天大家都有共識就是說我們這個先不續審不繼續審這個法案的話那是不是就請昭緯就馬上做個結論那再來要做專報我們再請昭緯來排嘛好不好等一下好這個部分"},{"start":6115.849,"end":6131.185,"text":"這個部分我先跟大家講喔專報跟專報的情況之下大家是質詢其實在場沒有這麼多人你可以把意見彙整起來我是想說今天剛好變成說我們有個談話交換會我覺得張雅妮委員的意見非常好"},{"start":6132.495,"end":6146.359,"text":"沒有 我就說這些部分意見大家如果有一個共識是往這方面去進行或是我們休息一下我們休息一下至少休息十分鐘我們再看看怎麼處理好不好"},{"start":6160.974,"end":6184.416,"text":"你們誰誰開的青年基本法?全部聯邦?我跟你講全部是我們民進黨還是聯合國民黨?沒有人?我有青年基本法,誰邀的都沒邀我。"},{"start":6187.038,"end":6190.861,"text":"一個版本裡面有人是五百五百五百五百"},{"start":6215.197,"end":6231.693,"text":"所以他加入食材的部分裡面反而是在正規法當中的食材裡面第一點就是大家都已經在做了所以我覺得把他出群傳用的賬號的方法來做這點一定會滿足記下不足的很多問題"},{"start":6237.078,"end":6256.617,"text":"就是我去專報完的完之後,然後我們也要求他就像我剛剛說的,236.2208,應該這個數字要認識一下,然後呢,再去對財富的影響效率那個範圍,這個部分也會用這個方法來去控制,這個很重要,然後可能在專報的過程中,"},{"start":6258.259,"end":6259.379,"text":"是不是要來"},{"start":6273.829,"end":6297.925,"text":"不用討論了 等一下 你們一定要出來做我的意見因為你的很重要的提供是 大家如果是用專報在這個會議宣布的 等一下你們要去我市長的辦公室那是辦公室裡面的照碼 我要走了 我要走了我講完 我稍微再講完 你們會不會再講一遍"},{"start":6306.261,"end":6323.808,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐飲。餐廳主要是為了提供餐飲。"},{"start":6325.469,"end":6342.063,"text":"就是有時候可以寫臉書 身照片可以用對 有時候可以用 因為你要跟人家解釋說為什麼要看一個報紙或是報紙等到那個報紙 等到比較激烈的時候才去這邊總要有十幾個博士"},{"start":6352.577,"end":6356.601,"text":"等一下外界不知道說為什麼你們不審要解釋一下"},{"start":6370.976,"end":6373.419,"text":"有一條說通常是補助學校"},{"start":6389.356,"end":6390.778,"text":"那是你之前"},{"start":6408.879,"end":6415.965,"text":"因為他們考察的時候 他們都已經說了我覺得一般人會做不完善的意見 但是你也不能對親的類似這樣"},{"start":6428.575,"end":6440.646,"text":"對 沒有錯你要靠團山業者做 團山業者看到效果以前剛剛宋琴說你要靠團山 依賴團山業者很明顯但是你不能夠變成福利或是收賄"},{"start":6452.257,"end":6472.092,"text":"但是你們現在討論新北市是新北市要嗎?不是,新北市是那個有啊,那是中美無線的時代啊對啊,對啊新北市現在的界線是向對面如果真的要討論,如果真的是透明的規則就要透明的規則,反正是要透明的規則然後全國各國都要去討論"},{"start":6479.077,"end":6482.96,"text":"那你寫在條文裡面你會不會變成合法 合法給"},{"start":6508.797,"end":6510.818,"text":"專貨的方法專貨的方法專貨的方法"},{"start":6536.125,"end":6551.096,"text":"我們這個就是在審那在審的時候裡面的東西就有很多東西這樣就比較有效率這樣比較有效率對 音樂 音樂的時候就有在進行好 好 好"},{"start":6560.316,"end":6567.978,"text":"謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":6571.007,"end":6573.229,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":6600.862,"end":6622.244,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對。"},{"start":6630.021,"end":6654.376,"text":"我們先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告先宣告"},{"start":6657.507,"end":6659.429,"text":"我們希望有進度,而不是只要限量。"},{"start":6684.657,"end":6684.677,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6699.669,"end":6700.89,"text":"因為這裡面還是"},{"start":6724.168,"end":6727.229,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":6776.698,"end":6777.819,"text":"那我們現在呢"},{"start":6779.366,"end":6795.922,"text":"現在開始開會我們先針對剛才休息時間所做的討論今天是因為大家謝謝各位委員跟教育部的官員有坦誠的交換意見然後也提出來說我們知道了現在"},{"start":6797.943,"end":6812.153,"text":"教育部呢 大概實施營養午餐法跟飲食教育呢 他們都已經大概就我們目前如果是完善的一個制度規劃的話 大概已經完成了七八成但是在很重要的是有的"},{"start":6812.913,"end":6838.092,"text":"三個專業的這個人力上面三類的專業人力上面還有包括的是它相對應的在決策體系當中的這些內容因為如果沒有這些實際上面的落實其實只增加人力但是它並沒有在決策裡面發生重要角色還包括的是其他的怎麼樣賦予他們的責任這是這個法裡面最重要的"},{"start":6839.033,"end":6865.163,"text":"因為大家發覺要更多的一個還有可能跟營養師公會啦 雖然我們本辦可能大家都已經有先跟委員們都有接觸嘛那個團善業者啊等等事實上跟大家都有接觸事實上我覺得他們也很認真在做這些事情包括還有要處理的部分那實際上看起來好像是教育部這邊稍微比較對營養師稍微比較弱了一些都有嘛 如果大家都有啊對啊 你說想要天天都有在延續"},{"start":6870.185,"end":6896.021,"text":"其實我真的覺得如果我們等一下真的我是先說在這裡面的內容當中教育部他們也有看出他們的用心因為他有把營養是放在一個部分但是他是其他的像更重要的團善業者那個都沒有放進去如果大家有看這個法的情況你就知道其實他們已經有做了蠻多努力的那如果做了蠻多努力的話"},{"start":6897.482,"end":6915.661,"text":"有機會再把那個財政這部分因為你不管怎麼樣手心手背中央跟地方通通都是要做的我事實上大家要給大家一個一個提醒或是說一個建議是這個把如果再把這邊部分完備的話真的是"},{"start":6916.673,"end":6944.021,"text":"我們教育文化委員會還包括立法院甚至連同的是跟教育部很大的一個很大的一個功德啦或是很大的一個建樹是對我們的學校的學生跟師生都有幫助的這邊但是很蠻有點現在遇到的情況是大家認為說這些部分好像需要更多的在討論甚至用專報那我覺得我也從善如流因為"},{"start":6945.458,"end":6973.917,"text":"大家沒有大家的參與這部分的話大家就可能也沒辦法也沒辦法繼續下去但是我想今天很高興有超過大概已經有十一二位的委員都還留在現在這個這個場合上面來我們表示大家對的看重也是跟大家表示謝意那我們繼續我們現在就做成一個一個決議就是我們因為還需要有更多的在請教育部做相關的釐清尤其在三種人力上面的在"},{"start":6975.418,"end":6975.667,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6976.648,"end":7004.885,"text":"實施決策在實施上面的一個角色必須更大的釐清那還有包括在這個實施費用上面他們的來源他們的裁員這部分那這邊請特別要注意之裁員如果裁劃法等等的這個其實也不是大問題不過好啦就是這樣講裁員不能就提供意見那就這樣子我可能目前就先提供這樣的兩個意見那因為這個可能需要的互助等等互溝通資訊等等的我們就先"},{"start":7005.885,"end":7013.488,"text":"今天就 這個法案審查呢 就 就就暫時齁 就暫時告一個段落好 那我們 啊 怎麼樣現在是 你要程序問題 你要程序問題才可以打斷我不然我沒辦法被你接受 沒辦法接受你的發言耶你要做程序發言嗎"},{"start":7037.16,"end":7049.11,"text":"會議詢問 會議詢問可以吧好 那會議詢問那現在什麼狀況 那請你說一下趙偉有點嚴肅捏齁就 大家多一點探討嘛 可以嗎"},{"start":7051.034,"end":7077.427,"text":"我知道因為您剛剛闡述理念闡述的非常的多那我也都知道你利益良善希望能夠趕快修這個法我也認為這是有必要的那我也答應你如果我有機會當召委我會緊接著繼續做但是現在剛剛在討論到所以我們的這個專報到底是1月什麼時候我想好奇問一下就這樣而已一個詢問但我覺得好像就我一個舉手好像召委離我越來越遠"},{"start":7079.377,"end":7106.019,"text":"好像覺得我要否定你稍微我是支持你的我是在問程序問題我只是想要詢問一下就是說1月的專報大概排在什麼時候因為剛剛你有討論嘛1月什麼幾號到幾號但是我想更確切的問透過這一個麥克風可能收音來讓大家了解一下我們專報什麼時候會進行讓下一個關注詞法的人可以更了解我們是有要持續推進的並不是"},{"start":7106.519,"end":7126.07,"text":"我相信今天所有的 包括民進黨的立委他們也都很關注專報的進行因為大家都希望通過這個法對吧 范雲委員對當然柯志恩委員跟萬美林委員特別交代就是說這個東西一定要持續推進但是是廣納意見而且能夠收集到更多有力的方式的時候再來進行所以這個部分麻煩您可不可以回應一下"},{"start":7127.304,"end":7143.261,"text":"好 因為教育部的法案是我這個會期的排案範圍那下一次再排案的話就會排在一月份了 才排在一月份了"},{"start":7143.962,"end":7163.897,"text":"好 那1月份呢大概就是5號那一週的禮拜一開始578或者是再多一點就192122這樣的時間那這個部分因為是專報我會依據時間上面的需求跟國教署這邊跟教育部再多協調就這樣子"},{"start":7166.539,"end":7182.929,"text":"大概就是這兩個週的時間點就這樣子那我們當然是有希望說這個後續還有機會再把它真的是因為有專報之後後面有這個審查再繼續在這樣的狀況因為大家就已經花了蠻多時間去做充分溝通我覺得這段是順利的去"},{"start":7184.864,"end":7200.68,"text":"我往前進都是好事情我現在也不要求多但是往前進都是好事情好 那就我們就今天就做成的是說我們就暫這一個圖條審查就先暫停那我們下次會排一個專報來作指"},{"start":7205.117,"end":7226.145,"text":"保留在委員會當中啊是保留在委員會當中保留在委員會當中在這個會議記錄做一下就是保留在委員會當中繼續的在持續的在做審查好那今天呢關於會議做如下的決議我們有很多的討論"},{"start":7228.052,"end":7254.983,"text":"就是剛才的各個委員有相關的一些提問等等的再請教育部國教署這邊就是提供相關的資料個別的或是做整體的答覆那我們當然最重要是在下次的專報當中去做出來回應那另外的呢就我們學校五三級飲食教育條例草案就另期的這個繼續來去做審查"},{"start":7257.898,"end":7264.586,"text":"好 那就報告委員會啦今天的議程就處理完畢那現在散會 謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}