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官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士 先生"},{"start":16.76,"end":20.76,"text":"有請公平會陳主委還有經濟部投審司司長"},{"start":20.76,"end":23.8,"text":"請陳主委還有經濟部投審司"},{"start":23.8,"end":28.04,"text":"好 委員早"},{"start":28.04,"end":29.44,"text":"主委好 司長好"},{"start":29.44,"end":30.36,"text":"好 來 我們來看一下"},{"start":30.36,"end":33,"text":"今天排這個專案報告 下一頁"},{"start":33,"end":35.44,"text":"其實就是剛好在昨天你們宣布了"},{"start":35.44,"end":38.56,"text":"Grab並購台灣FuPanda 你們是禁止結合"},{"start":38.56,"end":40,"text":"我看了一下報紙 它是說"},{"start":40,"end":43.64,"text":"公平會禁止Grab跟FuPanda結合"},{"start":43.64,"end":45.2,"text":"點出一個關鍵主因"},{"start":45.2,"end":47.760000000000005,"text":"我同篇看完 不曉得關鍵主因是什麼"},{"start":47.760000000000005,"end":50.16,"text":"主委你認為你們禁止的關鍵主因是什麼"},{"start":50.16,"end":53.400000000000006,"text":"我想多數的審查委員的意見應該是認為說"},{"start":53.4,"end":55.96,"text":"這裡面有涉及到少數的持股"},{"start":55.96,"end":56.839999999999996,"text":"那個持股的比例"},{"start":56.839999999999996,"end":58.199999999999996,"text":"簡單講 主因是什麼"},{"start":58.199999999999996,"end":59.36,"text":"主因就是因為有"},{"start":59.36,"end":60.36,"text":"一句話"},{"start":60.36,"end":61.76,"text":"彼此之間互相控股"},{"start":61.76,"end":64.36,"text":"有控股就是造成可能限制競爭或不競爭"},{"start":64.36,"end":65.16,"text":"是是是"},{"start":65.16,"end":66.75999999999999,"text":"缺乏積極競爭"},{"start":66.75999999999999,"end":67.8,"text":"好 那我們來看一下"},{"start":67.8,"end":70.36,"text":"在之前外送員的團體"},{"start":70.36,"end":73.96,"text":"對於外送市長不競爭可能會造成勞動權益的損害"},{"start":73.96,"end":75.75999999999999,"text":"商業權益的損害 還有資本風險"},{"start":75.75999999999999,"end":77.12,"text":"來 我們看下一頁"},{"start":77.12,"end":78.64,"text":"那麼公平會的審查"},{"start":78.64,"end":80.75999999999999,"text":"結合審查你們第13條說"},{"start":80.76,"end":83.72,"text":"整體經濟利益大於限制競爭之不利益"},{"start":83.72,"end":85.48,"text":"那我就很好奇"},{"start":85.48,"end":86.16000000000001,"text":"這個"},{"start":86.16000000000001,"end":88.56,"text":"而且你們也對於附加條件互擔"},{"start":88.56,"end":89.76,"text":"你們也把他否准了"},{"start":89.76,"end":90.96000000000001,"text":"沒有這個選項"},{"start":90.96000000000001,"end":93.80000000000001,"text":"那你們怎麼樣衡量整體經濟利益"},{"start":93.80000000000001,"end":95.76,"text":"是剛問的經濟部長說"},{"start":95.76,"end":97.08000000000001,"text":"這個是個創新事業"},{"start":97.08000000000001,"end":99.80000000000001,"text":"那你們要怎麼樣衡量限制競爭的不利益呢"},{"start":99.80000000000001,"end":100.56,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":100.56,"end":102.92,"text":"當他們說外送員"},{"start":102.92,"end":104.16000000000001,"text":"工會他們說呢"},{"start":104.16000000000001,"end":105.4,"text":"這個如果說"},{"start":105.4,"end":107.04,"text":"他們如果不積極競爭的話"},{"start":107.04,"end":109.56,"text":"可能商家的抽成會提高"},{"start":109.56,"end":111.64,"text":"可能消費者付的運費會漲價"},{"start":111.64,"end":114.24000000000001,"text":"可能外送員的燙數會被苛待"},{"start":114.24000000000001,"end":116.08,"text":"那你們認為"},{"start":116.08,"end":118.24000000000001,"text":"所謂的限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":118.24000000000001,"end":119.76,"text":"你們怎麼衡量"},{"start":119.76,"end":120.8,"text":"簡單來講就是說"},{"start":120.8,"end":121.52000000000001,"text":"我們會從"},{"start":121.52000000000001,"end":123.76,"text":"是不是有利於競爭來評斷"},{"start":123.76,"end":124.60000000000001,"text":"整體經濟的利益"},{"start":124.60000000000001,"end":126.04,"text":"所以只要有競爭"},{"start":126.04,"end":128.28,"text":"你們就覺得不會有不利益"},{"start":128.28,"end":129.76,"text":"基本上這是一個原則"},{"start":129.76,"end":130.52,"text":"這是原則"},{"start":130.52,"end":131.72,"text":"不過邏輯上不一定的"},{"start":131.72,"end":134.12,"text":"所以我們看的是市場競爭受影響的程度"},{"start":134.12,"end":134.56,"text":"對"},{"start":134.56,"end":136.92000000000002,"text":"就是說你們在看有沒有競爭"},{"start":136.92000000000002,"end":138.12,"text":"如果競爭維持"},{"start":138.16,"end":141.32,"text":"你們基本上認為不至於有不利益嗎"},{"start":141.32,"end":143.64000000000001,"text":"競爭如果維持是被強化"},{"start":143.64000000000001,"end":144.72,"text":"就不會有不利益"},{"start":144.72,"end":145.4,"text":"原則上"},{"start":145.4,"end":145.96,"text":"嚴格來講"},{"start":145.96,"end":148.64000000000001,"text":"還是對於不利益跟競爭無關的"},{"start":148.64000000000001,"end":149.4,"text":"你們就不管"},{"start":149.4,"end":150.08,"text":"應該是說"},{"start":150.08,"end":151.28,"text":"如果那個不利益本身"},{"start":151.28,"end":153.48000000000002,"text":"不是屬於競爭主管機關可以審酌的"},{"start":153.48000000000002,"end":155.32,"text":"原則上我們是不會介入"},{"start":155.32,"end":157.6,"text":"所以我們這裡就談到通案"},{"start":157.6,"end":160.44,"text":"這裡面所提到的風險跟不利益"},{"start":160.44,"end":161.76,"text":"不利益"},{"start":161.76,"end":162.92000000000002,"text":"大概你們可以做判斷"},{"start":162.92000000000002,"end":164.88,"text":"但是風險是另外一個概念"},{"start":164.88,"end":167.16,"text":"我想不利益是你們判斷會發生"},{"start":167.16,"end":168.92,"text":"風險是不確定會不會發生"},{"start":168.92,"end":170,"text":"好我們看一看"},{"start":170,"end":170.35999999999999,"text":"好"},{"start":170.35999999999999,"end":171.04,"text":"那我們第一個"},{"start":171.04,"end":173.6,"text":"你們說在判斷他的限制競爭"},{"start":173.6,"end":176.8,"text":"你們認為複雜股權會引起限制競爭"},{"start":176.8,"end":178.2,"text":"而且會造成後面的不利"},{"start":178.2,"end":179.16,"text":"那你們這裡提到"},{"start":179.16,"end":181.24,"text":"剛剛都講到持股表決"},{"start":181.24,"end":182.64,"text":"複雜的股權結構"},{"start":182.64,"end":187.16,"text":"這個現在的跨國企業常常有一個控股公司"},{"start":187.16,"end":190.64,"text":"但是這裡出現一個東西叫做共同財務誘因"},{"start":190.64,"end":191.76,"text":"現行的審查規則"},{"start":191.76,"end":194.84,"text":"如何評斷企業之間有複雜股權控股結構"},{"start":194.84,"end":195.8,"text":"你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":195.84,"end":198.08,"text":"還有所謂的共同財務誘因"},{"start":198.08,"end":200,"text":"如何判斷業者能不能保持競爭"},{"start":200,"end":202.20000000000002,"text":"有沒有一個比較明確可以告訴大家一個原則"},{"start":202.20000000000002,"end":204.60000000000002,"text":"關於第一點那個複雜股權控股結構的部分"},{"start":204.60000000000002,"end":205.08,"text":"你們有嗎"},{"start":205.08,"end":207.08,"text":"剛剛我們已經有已經加過在那邊"},{"start":207.08,"end":208.32000000000002,"text":"那共同財務誘因"},{"start":208.32000000000002,"end":210.44,"text":"這個是這個案子裡面一個重點"},{"start":210.44,"end":210.8,"text":"對"},{"start":210.8,"end":213.12,"text":"那我們如果參考國際間的做法"},{"start":213.12,"end":215.08,"text":"或是理論實務上的做法"},{"start":215.08,"end":216.12,"text":"因為涉及到誘因"},{"start":216.12,"end":218.04000000000002,"text":"所以誘因本身就是主觀上的東西"},{"start":218.04000000000002,"end":218.92000000000002,"text":"比較難去判斷"},{"start":218.92000000000002,"end":220.72000000000003,"text":"所以我們必須要有客觀的視覺"},{"start":220.72000000000003,"end":222.4,"text":"是我就很好奇你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":222.4,"end":223.4,"text":"那客觀的視覺"},{"start":223.4,"end":224.96,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":224.96,"end":227.20000000000002,"text":"股東股權分散的程度"},{"start":227.20000000000002,"end":229.32,"text":"通常股權越集中"},{"start":229.32,"end":230.36,"text":"還是在股權"},{"start":230.36,"end":231.44,"text":"股權的集中程度"},{"start":231.44,"end":232.44,"text":"就是不停股東會股權"},{"start":232.44,"end":233.12,"text":"還有這個"},{"start":233.12,"end":236.24,"text":"另外我們還會去看這個所謂的這個"},{"start":236.24,"end":237.6,"text":"股東會的情況"},{"start":237.6,"end":238.88,"text":"過去招待股東會的情況"},{"start":238.88,"end":241.4,"text":"所以但是你們還是聚焦在股權"},{"start":241.4,"end":243.04000000000002,"text":"那我們講共同財務"},{"start":243.04000000000002,"end":245.6,"text":"當然還是會投射上主權"},{"start":245.6,"end":246.56,"text":"那個股權"},{"start":246.56,"end":248.12,"text":"但我們來看一下第二個"},{"start":248.12,"end":249.20000000000002,"text":"資訊的共享"},{"start":249.20000000000002,"end":251.56,"text":"會不會導致一些一致行為或聯合行為"},{"start":251.56,"end":252.48000000000002,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":252.48,"end":255.32,"text":"他共享客戶跟地圖的這演算法的資訊"},{"start":255.32,"end":256.12,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":256.12,"end":257.68,"text":"他有一次行為"},{"start":257.68,"end":258.88,"text":"在這個一次行為的過去"},{"start":258.88,"end":260.15999999999997,"text":"才說跟中油發生過"},{"start":260.15999999999997,"end":261.64,"text":"他們一起漲價"},{"start":261.64,"end":263.48,"text":"一起調價"},{"start":263.48,"end":264.32,"text":"那後來呢"},{"start":264.32,"end":267.64,"text":"這個中油被迫要公布他的定價的公示"},{"start":267.64,"end":268.32,"text":"那等於說"},{"start":268.32,"end":269.84,"text":"我是按照我的定價公示走的"},{"start":269.84,"end":272.03999999999996,"text":"所以不是跟他協調的"},{"start":272.03999999999996,"end":273.52,"text":"另外現在實在進步了"},{"start":273.52,"end":275.44,"text":"Apple的互相串接引導客流"},{"start":275.44,"end":277.52,"text":"或者在主業以外的不同市場合作"},{"start":277.52,"end":278.03999999999996,"text":"甚至呢"},{"start":278.03999999999996,"end":280.12,"text":"這個Graymon他過去被查出說"},{"start":281.12,"end":282.88,"text":"互不競爭的協議"},{"start":282.88,"end":286.52,"text":"這些好像不能用一個共同財務利益"},{"start":286.52,"end":287.48,"text":"會"},{"start":287.48,"end":288.76,"text":"的一個誘因"},{"start":288.76,"end":290,"text":"來減損他的競爭"},{"start":290,"end":293.24,"text":"那你們怎麼看共同財務誘因以外的其他"},{"start":293.24,"end":295.4,"text":"減損競爭的這些因素呢"},{"start":295.4,"end":298.2,"text":"委員談的這個東西是比較屬於"},{"start":298.2,"end":301.12,"text":"業者結合以後互相協調一致的行為"},{"start":301.12,"end":303,"text":"就是說我們在處分書裡"},{"start":303,"end":305.92,"text":"在禁止結合書裡面有談到就是說"},{"start":305.92,"end":307.56,"text":"審查委員的意見認為說"},{"start":307.56,"end":308.84000000000003,"text":"因為市場結構"},{"start":308.84000000000003,"end":309.92,"text":"會有高度的誘因"},{"start":309.92,"end":311.12,"text":"讓他們會去進行審查"},{"start":311.12,"end":312.48,"text":"所以說這是在"},{"start":312.48,"end":315.40000000000003,"text":"衡量股權或共同財務的誘因之下"},{"start":315.40000000000003,"end":316.44,"text":"產生了後果"},{"start":316.44,"end":317.92,"text":"或者這些事情"},{"start":317.92,"end":318.52000000000004,"text":"其實比較強調"},{"start":318.52000000000004,"end":319.44,"text":"資訊共享啊"},{"start":319.44,"end":320.44,"text":"或者是一些協調行為"},{"start":320.44,"end":322.12,"text":"我們要強調市場結構面"},{"start":322.12,"end":323.08000000000004,"text":"集中度高"},{"start":323.08000000000004,"end":323.96000000000004,"text":"這些問題"},{"start":323.96000000000004,"end":324.28000000000003,"text":"因為呢"},{"start":324.28000000000003,"end":325.6,"text":"我們在會計上"},{"start":325.6,"end":328.88,"text":"百分之二十的股權是認為會有具有重大影響力"},{"start":328.88,"end":330.68,"text":"但是在我們公平會審查的時候呢"},{"start":330.68,"end":334.04,"text":"是不是也把重大影響力視為一個考量"},{"start":334.04,"end":334.68,"text":"就是"},{"start":334.68,"end":335.48,"text":"有重大影響力"},{"start":335.48,"end":337.48,"text":"彼此有重大影響力互通的時候"},{"start":337.48,"end":339.6,"text":"就會可能減損他的積極競爭"},{"start":339.6,"end":341.20000000000005,"text":"當我們要考慮少數股權的時候"},{"start":341.20000000000005,"end":342.48,"text":"這當然就是你要去考慮的"},{"start":342.48,"end":345.04,"text":"那重大影響要怎麼衡量"},{"start":345.04,"end":345.88,"text":"我們"},{"start":345.88,"end":346.40000000000003,"text":"不會建立"},{"start":346.40000000000003,"end":348.12,"text":"沒法建立一個客觀的標準"},{"start":348.12,"end":349.8,"text":"我們必須要在個案當中去了解"},{"start":349.8,"end":351.48,"text":"包括過去的歷史紀錄等等"},{"start":351.48,"end":352,"text":"各方面"},{"start":352,"end":352.48,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":352.48,"end":353.08000000000004,"text":"好"},{"start":353.08000000000004,"end":354.08000000000004,"text":"再來我們就問到了"},{"start":354.08000000000004,"end":354.84000000000003,"text":"這個大一關心的"},{"start":354.84000000000003,"end":357.12,"text":"跨國公司的潛在用戶資安風險"},{"start":357.12,"end":357.72,"text":"你看"},{"start":357.72,"end":359.52000000000004,"text":"在蘋果用戶曾經在"},{"start":359.52000000000004,"end":360.32000000000005,"text":"中國的"},{"start":360.32000000000005,"end":361.76000000000005,"text":"iCloud的數據"},{"start":361.76000000000005,"end":362.40000000000003,"text":"欸"},{"start":362.40000000000003,"end":363.6,"text":"這個中國政府要求"},{"start":363.6,"end":364.6,"text":"蘋果要拿出來"},{"start":364.6,"end":365.92,"text":"後來或者說臉書呢"},{"start":365.92,"end":367.68,"text":"他過去跟華為和聯想"},{"start":367.68,"end":369,"text":"分享用戶的資料"},{"start":369,"end":370.8,"text":"大家擔心他洩漏個資給中企"},{"start":370.8,"end":372.12,"text":"這是過去發生的事情"},{"start":372.12,"end":373.16,"text":"在這次的個案上"},{"start":373.16,"end":374,"text":"大家看到了"},{"start":374,"end":374.6,"text":"未來"},{"start":374.6,"end":375.8,"text":"在外送平台上的消費者"},{"start":375.8,"end":376.52,"text":"個資"},{"start":376.52,"end":377.6,"t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