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麻煩請局長"},{"start":2,"end":4,"text":"蔡局長請"},{"start":8.5,"end":9.5,"text":"馬文好"},{"start":9.5,"end":10.5,"text":"局長午安"},{"start":10.5,"end":14.5,"text":"就今天的這個議題 我想其實國安局"},{"start":14.5,"end":18,"text":"不是這個 國安局相關的業務"},{"start":18,"end":22,"text":"那大家的面向當然非常多 什麼都跟國安有關"},{"start":22,"end":27.5,"text":"所以就我們時間的關係主要我們現在想要探討的是"},{"start":27.5,"end":30.5,"text":"在年初國安局曾經有公布"},{"start":30.5,"end":37.5,"text":"在114年台灣平均每天遭受大概260萬次來自大陸的網路攻擊"},{"start":37.5,"end":40.5,"text":"比前一年還增加6%"},{"start":40.5,"end":49.5,"text":"可是在這個同時 台灣也連續11年拿下了受境外甲訊息影響最嚴重的榜首"},{"start":49.5,"end":52.5,"text":"那我們今年的狀況有比較改善了嗎"},{"start":52.5,"end":55.5,"text":"委員只是那個治安還是爭議訊息"},{"start":55.5,"end":59.5,"text":"治安跟爭議訊息都有"},{"start":59.5,"end":67.5,"text":"治安的部分就我們監控的狀況來講"},{"start":67.5,"end":70.5,"text":"它沒有減輕弱度 沒有減輕它的強度"},{"start":70.5,"end":73.5,"text":"特別注意的是它治安攻擊的手法"},{"start":73.5,"end":76.5,"text":"因為AI工具的運用它會變得更有效能"},{"start":76.5,"end":80.5,"text":"而且也會針對可能我們的一些網安環境的漏洞"},{"start":80.5,"end":84.5,"text":"它在查找我們的漏洞會變得更為 速度會變得更快"},{"start":84.5,"end":86.5,"text":"這會對我們構成一些挑戰"},{"start":86.5,"end":88.5,"text":"這大概是治安的部分"},{"start":88.5,"end":93.5,"text":"爭議訊息的部分因為我們都有列管一些可疑或問題的帳號"},{"start":93.5,"end":95.5,"text":"這部分應該以前有跟委員報告過"},{"start":95.5,"end":100.5,"text":"這種問題的帳號它就是沒有固定的一般的社交活動的狀態"},{"start":100.5,"end":104.5,"text":"但是它在中共官宣媒宣發動敘事的時候它馬上跟進"},{"start":104.5,"end":106.5,"text":"那我們有一些名單"},{"start":106.5,"end":112.5,"text":"那以這些問題或異常帳號的活動來講確實是大量增加"},{"start":112.5,"end":114.5,"text":"今年跟去年同期比"},{"start":114.5,"end":117.5,"text":"今年是兩百五十多萬去年一百六十幾萬大量增加"},{"start":117.5,"end":121.5,"text":"不過這個部分因為就是像假訊息的這個部分"},{"start":121.5,"end":124.5,"text":"這個可能到處都有全球各地"},{"start":124.5,"end":127.5,"text":"那包括我們台灣自己境內其實也是"},{"start":127.5,"end":132.5,"text":"它拿來用在選舉的工坊上面好像也是大有人在"},{"start":132.5,"end":137.5,"text":"不過我們現在今天我們也希望可以再深刻的去討論一下"},{"start":137.5,"end":141.5,"text":"就我們剛剛局長有提到AI攻擊的部分"},{"start":141.5,"end":143.5,"text":"那現在因為它的迭代很迅速"},{"start":143.5,"end":148.5,"text":"在七月初的時候有外媒跟以色列資安公司披露"},{"start":148.5,"end":151.5,"text":"就是境外駭客利用公開的AI工具"},{"start":151.5,"end":155.5,"text":"打造了可以協同作業的自主攻擊系統"},{"start":155.5,"end":158.5,"text":"成功的入侵了台灣政府的網站"},{"start":158.5,"end":163.5,"text":"它在四天之內有十二波協調攻擊的狀況底下"},{"start":163.5,"end":167.5,"text":"它成功侵入台灣政府至少八十五個帳號"},{"start":167.5,"end":170.5,"text":"還有竊取我們的文件入侵我們的信箱服務"},{"start":170.5,"end":174.5,"text":"而且在政府的網路應用程式上面建立後門"},{"start":174.5,"end":177.5,"text":"我們遭竊取的個資超過兩千五百筆"},{"start":177.5,"end":183.5,"text":"那供給的範圍也包括像核安會政府的IT供應鏈廠商"},{"start":183.5,"end":187.5,"text":"政府的郵件系統還有至少七家關鍵能源的業者"},{"start":187.5,"end":191.5,"text":"那這些其實看起來除了政府機關以外"},{"start":191.5,"end":196.5,"text":"屬於重要的基礎設施的這個私人企業也被成功的侵入"},{"start":196.5,"end":199.5,"text":"對我們來說可能影響非常深遠"},{"start":199.5,"end":205.5,"text":"而且這種狀況可能它造成的傷害也會越來越大"},{"start":205.5,"end":209.5,"text":"那這樣的一個網路攻擊的特點"},{"start":209.5,"end":214.5,"text":"駭客他利用開源AI代理程式打造自主的攻擊工具"},{"start":214.5,"end":217.5,"text":"這個可能是我們目前比較擔憂的部分"},{"start":217.5,"end":222.5,"text":"那目前有什麼樣的一個狀況可以有效的因應嗎"},{"start":222.5,"end":227.5,"text":"好這部分大概政府這邊在訴發部之下有一個通報機制"},{"start":227.5,"end":231.5,"text":"那個案的部分一旦通報的話馬上會進行查處"},{"start":231.5,"end":232.5,"text":"這是個案的部分"},{"start":232.5,"end":237.5,"text":"那另外也會針對那個害親的手法有沒有做一些變化"},{"start":237.5,"end":240.5,"text":"那像剛剛委員特別在提醒的是那個AI工具的運用"},{"start":240.5,"end":242.5,"text":"那這個確實是一個新的變化"},{"start":242.5,"end":247.5,"text":"那在處理上以本局來講我們大概也會用AI技術來反沾"},{"start":247.5,"end":249.5,"text":"我們自己的資訊系統有沒有一些弱點"},{"start":249.5,"end":254.5,"text":"那所以用AI來因應AI或許也是未來的一個發展的趨勢"},{"start":254.5,"end":258.5,"text":"那這部分我們經驗我們會來跟政府各部會來做一些分享"},{"start":258.5,"end":260.5,"text":"不過目前顯然我們是跟在後面走啦"},{"start":260.5,"end":265.5,"text":"因為我們這幾年其實編列的像資安的不管軟體也好"},{"start":265.5,"end":270.5,"text":"還有硬體設備因為要配合這麼高額的資安軟體的這些"},{"start":270.5,"end":275.5,"text":"我們在硬體的設備上面也不斷不斷的一直在墊高這樣的預算"},{"start":275.5,"end":280.5,"text":"可是顯然它現在AI正在改變網路站的這個相關的型態"},{"start":280.5,"end":284.5,"text":"這很像他們舉例很像是我們有碰到小偷"},{"start":284.5,"end":287.5,"text":"他不再需要親自翻牆"},{"start":287.5,"end":291.5,"text":"他只要派一群可以自我思考可以互相通訊的無人機"},{"start":291.5,"end":297.5,"text":"他就可以從觀察你的門鎖然後製造萬能的鑰匙到直接竊取"},{"start":297.5,"end":301.5,"text":"他完全自動化而且24小時不休息"},{"start":301.5,"end":303.5,"text":"我們現在有很多還是用人工分析"},{"start":303.5,"end":306.5,"text":"剛剛局長有提到我們還是在事後發生以後"},{"start":306.5,"end":309.5,"text":"我們才去做一些補救的措施"},{"start":309.5,"end":313.5,"text":"可是現在AI它顯然它現在造成的"},{"start":313.5,"end":317.5,"text":"我們靠人工分析的警報或事後防堵"},{"start":317.5,"end":321.5,"text":"這個已經很難去阻止AI的自主攻擊的速度"},{"start":321.5,"end":324.5,"text":"因為它又便宜又快速疊帶也很迅速"},{"start":324.5,"end":326.5,"text":"而且它24小時不休息"},{"start":326.5,"end":332.5,"text":"可能這個隨時隨地它都可以去找到自主攻擊的這些相關的漏洞"},{"start":332.5,"end":338.5,"text":"台灣這一次在7月份被受攻擊的這個部分"},{"start":338.5,"end":343.5,"text":"我們是全自主AI駭客第一個實驗場"},{"start":343.5,"end":347.5,"text":"現在如果說就這個部分我們剛剛提到的"},{"start":347.5,"end":352.5,"text":"像這樣子我們還有什麼樣可以有的具體作為嗎"},{"start":352.5,"end":356.5,"text":"有就AI工具的運用它當然有帶來一些挑戰"},{"start":356.5,"end":358.5,"text":"就像委員剛剛所描述的"},{"start":358.5,"end":360.5,"text":"但它也會給我們一些機會"},{"start":360.5,"end":367.5,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣來善用AI工具來強化我們自我偵檢相關的漏洞的補強"},{"start":367.5,"end":370.5,"text":"這也是一個未來要處理的方式"},{"start":370.5,"end":374.5,"text":"針對那種跟這種境外AI的攻防"},{"start":374.5,"end":377.5,"text":"它確實是一個有點像軍備競賽"},{"start":377.5,"end":381.5,"text":"也確實在這方面的投資要不斷的來強化"},{"start":381.5,"end":385.5,"text":"以國安情報團隊特別是國安局因為是主要的統籌機關"},{"start":385.5,"end":389.5,"text":"我們這部分有做滿多的新的一個資源的投資"},{"start":389.5,"end":391.5,"text":"也希望委員可以支持"},{"start":391.5,"end":393.5,"text":"這個部分我們要有具體的"},{"start":393.5,"end":395.5,"text":"就是局長必須要具體的做法"},{"start":395.5,"end":400.5,"text":"或者你要有什麼樣的一個先前的制度性的一個防堵措施"},{"start":400.5,"end":402.5,"text":"這樣大家才有辦法支持"},{"start":402.5,"end":405.5,"text":"不然我們現在我剛剛講了我們不斷的在支持"},{"start":405.5,"end":408.5,"text":"我們的資安的軟體設備也好硬體設備的提升也好"},{"start":408.5,"end":411.5,"text":"我們不斷的在增加每年編了那麼多的預算"},{"start":411.5,"end":414.5,"text":"包括像外交部最近的這個案例"},{"start":414.5,"end":418.5,"text":"他在2023年到2025年他已經買了這個3年"},{"start":418.5,"end":424.5,"text":"在安裝在駐外館的這個資訊產業管理軟體2000萬的標案"},{"start":424.5,"end":428.5,"text":"可是我們居然到最後一年已經3年了"},{"start":428.5,"end":432.5,"text":"我們才發現說這個可能在他的原始碼的部分"},{"start":432.5,"end":434.5,"text":"其實是來自大陸"},{"start":434.5,"end":438.5,"text":"那他只是稍微把它可能重新包裝以後"},{"start":438.5,"end":440.5,"text":"就變成我們台灣自己原創的"},{"start":440.5,"end":447.5,"text":"那在這個過程當中我們到底可能有什麼樣的很機敏的資料"},{"start":447.5,"end":449.5,"text":"或者我們有什麼樣的訊息被竊取"},{"start":449.5,"end":452.5,"text":"或者這中間的過程我們到底漏失掉了什麼"},{"start":452.5,"end":456.5,"text":"其實都已經造成很大的影響"},{"start":456.5,"end":461.5,"text":"那就這個部分我們現在顯然都還是跟在後面一直追"},{"start":461.5,"end":463.5,"text":"等到他發生了我們才再去防堵"},{"start":463.5,"end":465.5,"text":"可是我們永遠趕不上"},{"start":465.5,"end":467.5,"text":"那我們現在先提出來就是說"},{"start":467.5,"end":472.5,"text":"AI現在已經是一個很重要的一個攻擊性的武器"},{"start":472.5,"end":474.5,"text":"而且他是很難預防的"},{"start":475.5,"end":479.5,"text":"那我們這個部分顯然還沒有一個很明確的做法"},{"start":479.5,"end":481.5,"text":"那我們希望在很快的時間之內"},{"start":481.5,"end":484.5,"text":"就這個部分怎麼樣去因應"},{"start":484.5,"end":487.5,"text":"或者怎麼樣因為我們已經台灣是第一個受害者"},{"start":487.5,"end":489.5,"text":"那也被做這樣的實驗"},{"start":489.5,"end":494.5,"text":"那就這個部分我們要怎麼樣去有一個制度性的排除"},{"start":494.5,"end":499.5,"text":"這一個部分我們希望可以很快的有一個報告資料"},{"start":499.5,"end":504.5,"text":"好我們就這部分我們會跟蘇發部這邊來密切來討論"},{"start":504.5,"end":507.5,"text":"怎麼樣建構一個委員講的一個比較完整的一個架構"},{"start":507.5,"end":512.5,"text":"來確保我們的資安環境在AI時代之下能夠強化他的韌性"},{"start":512.5,"end":516.5,"text":"那第二部分是國安局這邊跟國際上這方面的合作也非常緊密"},{"start":516.5,"end":519.5,"text":"那我們也不斷的在吸收學習"},{"start":519.5,"end":521.5,"text":"各國在應處這方面AI威脅的經驗"},{"start":521.5,"end":524.5,"text":"那這部分我們會做一個完整的彙整"},{"start":524.5,"end":526.5,"text":"讓國內的主管機關來參考"},{"start":526.5,"end":532.5,"text":"那整個的相關的一個研析的報告我們會後再提供給委員來做參考"},{"start":532.5,"end":536.5,"text":"好我們希望可以很具體的一個相關的資料跟報告"},{"start":536.5,"end":540.5,"text":"因為我們在包括AI的這些預算"},{"start":540.5,"end":542.5,"text":"其實我們近幾年其實也編列非常多"},{"start":542.5,"end":546.5,"text":"不管是國防或者其他的相關預算是非常高的"},{"start":546.5,"end":548.5,"text":"那它必須要有效"},{"start":548.5,"end":552.5,"text":"而且真的是可以讓我們走在前頭而不是都在後面追"},{"start":552.5,"end":555.5,"text":"這個部分是我們今天要提出來的重點"},{"start":555.5,"end":557.5,"text":"好謝謝我們的關鍵"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}