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我們報告各黨團 我們黨編都到了今天我們一上午 院會的黨團共事進行衛廣法的第20條條文修正案的協商"},{"start":173.829,"end":193.905,"text":"那我們現在針對第20條進行討論那我們先介紹列席的官員再來請各黨團發言今天列席的官員是NCC的代理主委陳崇樹好 謝謝好 那接下來我們是不是請各黨團來發表意見來 我們對 請提案的"},{"start":200.2,"end":224.782,"text":"國民黨團先說明謝謝副院長為了強化NCC的透明度跟公信力所以本席提案召開諮詢會議後30日內NCC應將委員名單及諮詢會議記錄提供於申請人確實落實資訊公開原則使申請人得以依據具體內容進行改善也讓社會得以檢視程序是否公正以上"},{"start":226.65,"end":240.907,"text":"好來來我們民進黨黨團然後民眾黨黨團好主席各位列席人員文黨團請在這方面最專業最有經驗的林祖英為代表發言請"},{"start":244.171,"end":265.345,"text":"主席還有各黨團的代表我想其實在場大概唯一有出席過所謂的相關的這樣的會議的就是我本人因為我確實是來自於媒體喔那麼綜合上一次朝野協商的這個結論我要必須再一次的提出就是我是代表一種業內人士來這裡針對這個法案所謂不適當的部分再提出"},{"start":266.566,"end":283.483,"text":"這個說明喔首先是這個法案當中所講的申請人的這個部分它其實是一個非常空洞而模糊的就像我本人我自己待過的電視台從中天TVBS東森再到三立那麼我當主管的時候我是可以擔任所謂的申請人的"},{"start":284.243,"end":301.036,"text":"這個是其實為什麼連衛星工會都針對這個修法提出疑慮的原因是在於說這包含到所謂的營業秘密在裡面我作為申請人那麼我在這個電視台的時候我申請了我看了這些東西因為這裡頭是包含了"},{"start":302.317,"end":319.505,"text":"評審委員名單之外還有評審的會議記錄還有相關的意見內容評分標準言下之意就是在這樣所有的會議當中所有東西就全部都公開了那麼這個對於現在的業內的這些所有的產業來說那麼他們依舊"},{"start":322.907,"end":334.778,"text":"會擔心這樣的申請人所謂空白授權的申請人出去之後這些營業的意見是會被公開的首先其實針對我們業內在我們每一次這樣的會議之後"},{"start":339.662,"end":354.054,"text":"我們所有可以透過附審回訊我們其實是可以有機制去了解到底會議內容什麼時候需要補件什麼時候需要做內容的再修正"},{"start":354.835,"end":383.213,"text":"那所以說這樣的修法之後我覺得對業內最大的影響是在於營業秘密在這樣的所謂申請人的申請之下全都錄之後對於業內來說其實這裡頭包含著很多營業的機密而這樣的營業機密裡面雖然所講的申請人是當事人沒錯但是所謂的當事人其實後續他可能轉到別的台內去"},{"start":384.894,"end":392.918,"text":"這個是彼此營業秘密當中可能會露出的第二個當然其實我要再次的強調是在這樣的評審會議當中其實每一次產生爭議的時候首先這些頻道他是有機會申訴有機會去做交流"},{"start":402.383,"end":431.403,"text":"也有機會去知道就是到底在這樣的會議當中有哪些部分其實是需要做補件跟了解的唯一所謂的不透明不公開其實是指外面非本頻道的人那如果說今天我們按照這樣的一個修法之後其實它的利益上面對於每一個頻道來說其實有修跟沒修意思是一樣啦"},{"start":432.867,"end":447.228,"text":"所以我認為在這樣的修法的過程當中第一 效果不顯著第二是在營業秘密容易被公拍的狀況底下我還是強烈的希望能夠不要去修這個條文"},{"start":450.421,"end":475.393,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來另外一個媒體來了民眾黨的代表我也是跟楚音一樣 支持媒體人我是主張要公開透明當然楚音剛剛講的某些機密你本來今天事實上要公開的是什麼一個是知行委員的名單第二個就是會議的內容你如果真的極機密的很隱密性的你根本就不要列入就沒有這個問題那我強調一下為什麼今天要修這個法"},{"start":478.234,"end":500.87,"text":"因為衛廣法裡面明定說你取得這個執照有效是六年然後你滿三年就要接受評鑑然後前滿了六個月之前你又要去申請這個換照那現在出了什麼問題現在就是每次在開這個諮詢會議的時候出現了剛剛講說不公開像NCC都外洩了內容就是第一個現在台灣出現的問題"},{"start":502.111,"end":516.857,"text":"一般的人拿不到負責人拿不到衛星廣播電視的負責人拿不到結果NCC把它洩漏給第三者了媒體上面都披露這是第一個要防避很重要的一個因素那第二個透明 公開透明本來就是"},{"start":518.155,"end":545.74,"text":"應該要做的事情而且我剛剛提到一個很重要的就是你如果真的極機密的你到時候就可以防備把它遮起來所以我們明定要求是什麼你開完諮詢會議之後明定主管機關NCC會議後30日內你提供的我剛剛講的只有兩個內容一個就是諮詢委員的這個名單一個就是會議紀錄那麼允許如果剛剛有處院講的那個極機密你到時候就遮遠就可以了這次是由國民黨跟民眾黨共同提案我們堅持"},{"start":547.86,"end":570.559,"text":"貫徹他們的公開透明 謝謝好 那個我先請代理主委他有提供意見 你說明一下是 謝謝主席那剛剛委員所提到的這個確實在我們不管是深圳還是平津還是幻照旅都會審查叫業者提供他的財務狀況那有時候也會有涉及到"},{"start":571.64,"end":592.992,"text":"相關經理人 經理人或者其他第三方人物的個資所以在財務狀況 財務資訊還有個資上其實確實會有這方面的疑慮在交通委員會的時候我們也表達過這個意見所以希望說如果可以的話就是說這個條文如果不要修訂會是比較好的"},{"start":599.764,"end":619.091,"text":"你們的意見是沒有要修但你們提供的版本好像不是這樣沒有 那個是最後如果說剛剛不是 你要說一次說清楚不能這樣分段你到底立場是什麼我們立場是說如果提案的黨團"},{"start":623.032,"end":649.015,"text":"坚持然后又有相对应的一些同意说在相关资料做隐匿的情况下处理的话我们会建议说因为这群会议其实是我们NCC委员会议的前置的会议而且只是咨询参考而已所以我们会建议说这个露出的timing这个时间我们建议说要在NCC的委员会议审那个案子之后再来提供给申请人"},{"start":657.068,"end":680.335,"text":"另外第二点是因为这一条的第一项其实涵盖三个范围深色 平建跟幻照现在提案党团这边的是只有针对平建我们建议说这边就一致性处理所以我们就直接建议说在修正文字那边就把它改成委员名单及咨询会议记录英语"},{"start":681.215,"end":705.237,"text":"主管機關委員會議就第一項事項決議後30日內提供與申請人好 這個是不是可以印給我們各黨團我們把他們NCC的提議的內容文字的部分提供給各黨團好不好你要再補充好 來 請"},{"start":708.082,"end":730.046,"text":"謝謝主席其實剛剛針對的就是目前我們看到的在修正動議當中的第三項第一項是指哪些諮詢意見有四款第二項是說諮詢委員的遴選或遴派第三項它原來的在修正動議是指諮詢委員名單及諮詢會議紀錄應於會議後30內提供與申請人"},{"start":736.647,"end":750.712,"text":"因為我們知道會議後的30天是剛性的規定這個會議開完了但是不代表該申請案已經審議完畢所以這種情況之下你變成說如果一個案子審過好幾次會等於還沒有完成做決議之前"},{"start":752.386,"end":763.571,"text":"直到30天會議記錄內容就公開會造成該次會議的審訊 該案的審訊受到中途的一些干擾我想這應該是NCC的一個立場我想待會我們看到他的文字修正再來討論針對之前一輪的發言當中國民黨黨團跟民主黨黨團我都知道尤其是羅委員是用心良苦"},{"start":775.356,"end":800.298,"text":"那我們對於我們打個比方來說好了對於NCC在這審查我們可以想成是學生在參加考試或是我們參加國家考試那我們知道啊就算是律師高考啊他也可以有月卷也可以有複查如果你考沒有考過你可能可以去複查成績有沒有算錯你也可以要求月卷看自己的內容是否被怎麼樣不當的一個評議評價"},{"start":803.322,"end":832.907,"text":"那这都是可以的我们可以理解原来的再修正动议或者原来的提案的目的是针对NCC对于他们所审议的各项案内容申请人可以透过类似像这种月卷的方式去看一看到底我审查没过是委员对我哪一个计划内容有意见但是今天有两个部分要提醒不能做到类比第一如果你用国家考试来类比"},{"start":833.578,"end":844.489,"text":"越卷也只能越當事人自己卷上的答案他沒有辦法去看其他考生的答案也沒有辦法去看其他審查委員"},{"start":845.27,"end":863.658,"text":"在其他個人的其他資料但是剛剛陳如NCC代表所說的目前的寫法首先申請人剛剛林楚瑜委員說了在傳播媒體工作的人員他可以看所有該次會議"},{"start":864.818,"end":892.854,"text":"的資料而這些資料呢可能涉及到媒體公司的營業秘密那這種情況之下是否應該要讓這個申請人尤其申請人他可能今天代表的是某公司下次他跳槽到其他公司等於是他有知悉這些營業秘密之後有這樣的一個一個利益的衝突這是第一個部分那第二個部分呢我們再做一個類比"},{"start":893.801,"end":910.548,"text":"這樣的要求可以要求看到審議的記錄跟意見內容有點像法院的月券我們都知道在司法上的攻防不管是辯方或檢方他們應該攻擊防禦大家武器對等所以月券是可以看到"},{"start":911.268,"end":940.12,"text":"到底對方提供的證據證詞證人是什麼同樣的對方也可以看到你的證人證詞是什麼這是基於司法審理它有兩照對照的關係存在因此呢月卷的申請是必要的但是我們知道啊這個NCC的審案它不是兩照的對照關係它是審議委員會對於申請案主案的關係因此呢你要求讓主案的申請人就其個案要求看所有"},{"start":941.148,"end":952.405,"text":"會議的記錄那這超越了我們在司法上攻防所必須的武器均等也就是說這樣的一個月卷要求看到的內容他跟司法上因為"},{"start":954.39,"end":974.036,"text":"檢辯雙方攻擊防禦武器要對等所以雙方彼此可以看得到的資料但是我們知道今天的NC的審議會它不是一個兩兆的對等的辯護關係它不是說還有一個法官看你們兩兆的攻擊防禦再來做判斷它基本上是一個審議會對於申請案單方面的評價內容"},{"start":975.652,"end":995.68,"text":"所以呢變成說你要去考生要去看老師給我考卷的評語這個不能類比成我們在司法上公防雙方都能看到對方的證實證人這是不一樣的所以我是建議說包括尤其是羅委員他很用心在這個提案當中我們希望呢能夠對於目前到NC的申請案"},{"start":996.48,"end":1000.424,"text":"有些救濟的餘地比如說我這個案子審沒有過我知道我要怎麼改進我想知道委員對哪些問題有意見這樣的用意動機很好但是在設計上如果沒有包括NCC所說的沒有在申請案全部審議完均做成決定後"},{"start":1014.239,"end":1033.009,"text":"你在公開那麼就會造成這個申請案在審議過程當中可能對審議委員造成困擾可能對於申請人及其所屬的公司或其他相關人等對於該申請案所附帶的公司的營業秘密有對外介入的風險不是說用意不好而是說這樣的條文設計有達到他們想要促成的正向的解決申請案不會被不明不白的或者說"},{"start":1043.315,"end":1067.872,"text":"沒有辦法尋求一個救濟或尋求改進的一個管道而是在你尋求改進或救濟的過程當中可能造成其他的營業秘密外洩或者造成其他這不是一個兩照工房上的一個不對等的地位的改變所以建請是不是這個案子我們還是可以再去徵詢比較完整的內容再來做修正 以上來 羅委員"},{"start":1072.341,"end":1089.666,"text":"首先我分幾個層次來回應剛剛我們民進黨委員的意見第一個層次我們知道民進黨過去經常主張開放政府 公開透明事實上新聞台的不管是幻照 評鑑尤其它是涉及到新聞台的執照"},{"start":1090.646,"end":1116.923,"text":"NCC過去的紀錄也不是沒有去找個藉口就把新聞台關了的前例那他當然處理程序很簡單他前面有個諮詢委員 對不對 諮詢意見他不告訴你諮詢意見是什麼然後說有諮詢委員這樣講 有諮詢意見這樣講然後作為他委員會最後裁決出來就跟你講說關了你 你不要再講話了今天這個修法我先跟大家講第一個層次其實這個修法並沒包括喔它不是公開喔"},{"start":1118.393,"end":1144.995,"text":"它是給申請人喔 這第一個層次喔沒有到公開 就像講月卷那第二個剛剛楚英的疑慮不存在原因是什麼這兩個是同一件事啦 我一併講你要知道 就像剛剛我拿嘉賓兄的意見嘛我今天我要被考核 對不對我要考核嘛 我填了考試卷然後填了深論題嘛 我過去給你考核嘛那今天月卷老師的月卷意見我要知道嘛"},{"start":1145.598,"end":1164.935,"text":"那我是誰 我是新聞台被評鑑的那個人我就是申請人啊 對不對我身設執照 我是申請人啊那你評鑑我的委員的意見我不知道是什麼啊不知道 我要去要嘛 要可是你又想要了以後 萬一我要回我的那個東西裡面有我的營業機密 洩密怎麼辦"},{"start":1165.776,"end":1187.947,"text":"那是我的營業機密再回到第二個剛剛嘉賓學問題也不存在為什麼你只要NCC我不管你現在做法什麼你只要一案一審就不會有你的所謂的全部綁在一起討論的那個會議記錄的問題今天我A電視台我申請過去你諮詢會議你就是針對A電視台你進行意見評議嘛那你要看A電視台的營業機密財務資料隨便你看嘛你就開始評議嘛"},{"start":1189.248,"end":1204.055,"text":"評議完之後A電視台去做申請的申請回來看到也是A電視台我送出去的營業機密財務資料所有東西進來所以我閱我自己的資料不會有任何什麼營業機密外洩的問題那另外第三個層次我還是要講一件事"},{"start":1205.536,"end":1216.228,"text":"諮詢委員今天對於一個新聞台做出的所謂的有影響力的諮詢意見送到委員會他根據諮詢委員的意見來進行參酌的時候你本來就要為你的意見負責"},{"start":1220.563,"end":1244.841,"text":"那今天這個已經是叫最低層次不是公開 我再強調一次 不是公開它到最低層次 武器對等你起碼要讓今天有可能受到關台或更嚴重的處分的這個新聞台或是新聞事業它有一個武器對等原因是我怎麼會知道你到底說我爛在什麼地方啊你要關我 給我個道理啊結果你這是誰說我爛"},{"start":1245.942,"end":1257.084,"text":"什麼理由說我爛我不知道然後NCC就說因為張三李四王五說你很爛抱歉是張三李四王五哪一個我不能告訴你我只能跟你講一個非特定名字"},{"start":1258.137,"end":1282.518,"text":"那請問對新聞台而言公平嗎我還是回到一件事我們的憲法是保障新聞自由所以新聞自由是有憲政高度的在這種情況之下抱歉我覺得諮詢委員要為自己的諮詢意見負責在這一個強調這兩重所謂的價值上的話都是正向價值"},{"start":1282.998,"end":1291.768,"text":"至於剛剛講的可能出現的問題那是有辦法解決的很簡單你只要一案一審那我送出去資料我申請要回來就沒有任何泄密問題"},{"start":1293.123,"end":1321.153,"text":"好 那個齊凱還有好 你最後一個補充話這次修法是要解決兩個現在已經出現的問題一個就是NCC你現在這個是繼承的事實就是你在媒體上看到NCC把資料洩出去這是第一個問題第二個有些申請人要去申請申請不到資料所以今天是要解決這兩個問題所以才這次的修法那更重要的現在能夠去申請的是誰申請人 你像楚音跟我們我們兩個在大部分電視台都帶過對不對"},{"start":1323.649,"end":1340.941,"text":"是我們的電視台在當申請人所以自己拿自己資料本來就不會有這個問題現在只是要明定今天把它明定清楚就是說審議過後的30天內你要提供給我例如說申請人是三立好了或者是中天或者TBS我本身是申請人我是被你評議的這個對象"},{"start":1342.662,"end":1361.608,"text":"那怎麼有什麼洩密問題那你說真的有的話某些地方在做某些的遮蔽都還OK這基本上是保障保障三立也保障TV保障所有的電視台所以一個是解決目前的問題而是保障現有的它是申請人對申請人公開透明你不要弄到現在就是有時候去申請 申請不到這就嚴重出現很多弊病 好不好OK 好"},{"start":1366.758,"end":1380.747,"text":"那個本席宣告因為本案針對第20條顯然還沒有共識我們就送院會進行處理修正意見是那個字的部分對不對不是NCC那一部分"},{"start":1390.495,"end":1418.453,"text":"那你們同意他的那個除非大家都同意他的修正案啊不然你沒辦法對啊 不然沒辦法簽啊對不對 還是要到那裡去去啊不是啊 你修正動議民進黨自己可以提嘛因為會處理嘛對不對 這不是協商決議這不是協商決議現在已經沒有關係嘛你們已經表示不同意就好了對啊 他們就不同意啦對 基本上對剛才的提議NCC提議"},{"start":1420.36,"end":1446.44,"text":"這個國民黨跟民眾黨是不同意的我們用原來的版本可以提修正動議嗎不過嘉賓你們提的上大同小異也是剛剛他講那兩個原則對啦 大同小異用我們的就可以了嘉賓不要再講了我們先表 好不好"},{"start":1460.893,"end":1475.023,"text":"就不要發言了喔那個柯總召你們提的修正版我們同意先表決你們的版本那大家都不要發言好不好寫一下黨團公司寫一下好不好"},{"start":1479.518,"end":1497.246,"text":"這個空檔期間還是跟那個羅委員互動一下因為剛剛你講的你把諮詢會議跟審議會議混在一起了有行政處分決定權的是審議會議那麼審議會議他所做的行政處分未來可以做行政救濟所以行政訴訟他可以要求法院要看"},{"start":1497.799,"end":1499.76,"text":"你這樣的像舉例某天電視台他對他的申請案被退回這個處分他不同意他就行政訴訟法院是可以就審議委員會的內容邀約"},{"start":1513.663,"end":1542.41,"text":"但是你要延伸到審議委員會之前的資訊委員會議這就有點超過了行政處分所為的範圍啊 含色範圍啊所以志祥兄 我再跟你說一說目前法院有涉及到這樣的行政處分的法院那個 這樣好吧是到審議委員會了讓我講一下來 我把這個草稿念一下啦就如果沒有意見我們就簽名黨團共識一 討論事項第一案衛星廣播電視法修正案"},{"start":1542.87,"end":1551.233,"text":"院會進行處理時廣泛討論逐條討論及完成三讀後均步發言逐條時依黨團版本先後進行表決處理並禮讓民進黨黨團先表決好不好 好 來"},{"start":1568.176,"end":1571.201,"text":"那我們前往 我們就散會回委員會繼續處理 好不好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}