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交通委員會現在開會 初期委員以主法定人數現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第四會計交通委員會第十三次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年十二月二十九日星期一上午九十至十二時十分 地點本院紅樓二零一會議室 初期委員李坤哲等十四人 列席委員鄭天才等五人"},{"start":1769.222,"end":1794.888,"text":"立席官員交通部部長陳士凱等主席李昭及委員崑哲報告司法院宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請交通部部長及內政部次長進行專題報告並備諮詢討論四項一 審查發展大眾運輸條例修正草案二 繼續審查香港法修正草案本日會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後既有委員李崑哲等14人提出質詢軍警部長陳士凱"},{"start":1796.728,"end":1815.183,"text":"等級相關人員分別予以答覆決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員核心詢等是人體書面諮詢三 委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關建築書面答覆四 討論四項一 個案均另定其繼續審查五 討論四項二 個案"},{"start":1817.81,"end":1818.951,"text":"好 現在介紹在場委員 王弘威委員"},{"start":1846.055,"end":1867.491,"text":"那我們今天介紹列席人員行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳偉祥副主委羅天健主任秘書那另外包括企劃處技術處工工工程管理處法規委員會採購申訴審議委員會中央採購審議小組資訊推動小組處長參事以及專門委員一併感謝"},{"start":1875.851,"end":1895.149,"text":"交通部秘書處以及國防部國防採購室採購發包處還有法務部司法院民事廳以及勞動部勞動力發展署跨國勞動力管理組行政院主計總處內部審核研究小組數位發展部資通安全署"},{"start":1895.909,"end":1914.62,"text":"經濟部投資審議司 內政部移民署 移民事務組以及權序部還有國家安全局第三處 大陸委員會經濟處跟行政院國土安全辦公室我們所有出席的代表以及人員 我們一併感謝 自己先給自己一個掌聲謝謝好"},{"start":1920.54,"end":1946.55,"text":"本日會議進行公告修正政府採購法 以求精進政府採購效率 提高公共重大工程進度品質 堵絕二值廠商投標可能之專題報告及審查政府採購法等修正草案共二十案 以上法案僅進行詢答我們先請提案委員說明提案要旨首先請第一位王宏威委員"},{"start":1956.687,"end":1977.333,"text":"好 謝謝主席政府採購法現行的法規是針對拒絕往來廠商不得參加投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商最重是處分三年時間但是很多不肖廠商當他的處分時間到了之後他會繼續的投標"},{"start":1979.654,"end":2007.69,"text":"而因為當時的受處分都會影響它的一個品質事實上在前年我們警政署移民署和台灣銀行去採購防彈衣跟防彈頭盔等安全設備就出現了重大的瑕疵使得很多的基層員警非常的擔心自己的安全後來本席也踢爆"},{"start":2009.21,"end":2034.843,"text":"這個得標的廠商也就是我剛才講幾乎是全台僅用房貸背心有瑕疵的廠商他竟然有七次被列為採購黑名單可以知道這樣一個黑心廠商不管是原來的廠商或者他在利用另外去登記其他的廠商名字或者用他的兒子再繼續的去得標"},{"start":2035.763,"end":2059.535,"text":"然後整個去危及我們京城警察的安全所以這問題是很重大的另外我在前年4月也曾經踢爆我們中科院去採購非氮製造原物料的公司在被發現洗產地之後一樣的被桃園地檢署後來就被起訴了"},{"start":2063.337,"end":2085.3,"text":"但是非常離譜的事情這個廠商被中科院列為拒絕往來戶之後竟然可以繼續在國防部得標更離譜的是他已經被起訴然後國防部照樣招標照樣可以得標所以為了遏止不肖廠商"},{"start":2086.801,"end":2108.933,"text":"這樣的一個行徑 所以本席針對我們這次採購法就是提出103條的修正草案讓受停業處分的期間 任參加投標者對採購有關人員交付不正利益以及第二款破產程序中的廠商歧視性別 原住民身心障礙或弱勢團體人士等廠商"},{"start":2110.834,"end":2131.629,"text":"借用或冒用他人名義或證件投標違反採購法他只要犯三次以上就永久不得參加政府的採購這叫做什麼呢這叫做三證條款也就是說如果有一個廠商他已經有三次被政府的採購列為拒網的一個"},{"start":2134.231,"end":2158.951,"text":"資料那當然就不能夠讓他再繼續的來採購我們甚至去查詢過甚至有廠商被列為拒絕往來我好幾十次之多繼續來參加政府的這些採購案這個非常的離譜所以我在這一次的修法也希望能夠得到這個行政院我們工程委員會的支持也希望能夠得到我們交通委員會的支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2164.005,"end":2187.435,"text":"好 謝謝好 那連委員有要代表黨團提案說明嗎好那接下來請列席機關報告請行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委報告"},{"start":2197.024,"end":2223.077,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 經得今天獸邀列席貴委員會 針對公告修正政府採購法 以求精進政府採購效力 提高重大工程進度品質 堵絕惡質廠商投標可能 提出專題報告警舊工程會本次延擬病於一百一十四年十一月十一日預告 知政府採購法部分條件修正草案"},{"start":2224.678,"end":2250.464,"text":"對應上開要求之修正重點說明如後 敬請指教一 及早公開採購資訊同時刪除第一次公開招標開標加速的限制工程會盤點WTO政府採購協定以及美英歐盟等先進國家的制度並無開標加速限制又查第一次開標要有三家廠商投標規定"},{"start":2251.804,"end":2277.561,"text":"是源於民國三十九年公布的各機關營產工程及購置 訂製 變賣 財務 稽查程序條例招標公告緊要 當時的招標公告是要求在機關的門口公告五日以上以及當地的報紙廣告三日以上資訊不完全公開透明民國八十七年政府採購法立法時予以原用"},{"start":2280.114,"end":2291.662,"text":"考量當時的資訊封閉 現在的資訊公開有多元管道可及時取得標案資訊所有公開招標案件均需公開在政府"},{"start":2292.844,"end":2293.064,"text":"二次"},{"start":2322.369,"end":2344.485,"text":"就是因為第一次沒有三家廠商投標機關要多招標一次那麼就會影響政府的採購效力工程會此次修法採行及早公開採購計畫並將以修法後擴大公開閱覽範圍及延長等標期等措施更可促進廠商之間的公平競爭"},{"start":2346.089,"end":2353.816,"text":"第二提高小額採購金額的上限門檻金額機關辦理小額採購可盡洽廠商採購免提供報價及企劃書但是現行的小額採購金額為新台幣15萬元以下"},{"start":2364.908,"end":2390.383,"text":"是受採購法第四七條第三項之小額採購不得欲公告金額十分之一的規定那為便利主管機關及地方政府因應物價變動及整體政策考量就小額採購之金額得以彈性調整原刪除前述第四七條第三項十分之一之限制以利機動調整小額採購金額提升機關採購效力"},{"start":2395.441,"end":2419.048,"text":"本次透過更積極建立公平合理的採購環境並保障廠商權利提升公共工程品質第一是政府採購企業範本的效力要剛性化那麼使其對機關具拘束力避免不公平條款衍生爭議以及影響廠商參與投票意願目前實務上部分機關並沒有採用"},{"start":2422.349,"end":2444.017,"text":"工程會訂定的企業範本自行訂定許多不公平條款衍生理業爭議也影響廠商投標意願為改善前述情形本次修正草案第63條將政府採購企業範本及效率剛性化使其對機關具拘束力以促進政府採購契約是公平合理性"},{"start":2445.592,"end":2471.869,"text":"第二是保障公平保障公共工程各級廠商的權益為減輕廠商帶電資金壓力 草案第七十三條之一增訂查核金額以上案件縮短估驗週期時間增加估驗的次數此外草案第六十七條增訂分包商的契約價金有優先售清廠的機制以維護分包商權益並立"},{"start":2473.63,"end":2479.207,"text":"公共工程順利進行次分包商一樣準用此規定"},{"start":2482.271,"end":2510.595,"text":"為杜絕二值廠商投標的可能修正重點一 停權效力擴及於相同代表人之其他廠商或新設廠商實務上被停權廠商可能與同一代表人之其他既有或新設廠商繼續參與政府採購架空停權制度 連增訂無論現有或新設相同代表人之廠商皆會受停權效力所及來強化防堵"},{"start":2511.721,"end":2538.046,"text":"第二 增訂不良廠商重複違規之停權期間合併計算現行停權制度同一廠商同時被刊登數次政府採購公報停權期間重疊無法達到原有管制目的修正草案增訂第103條之一定明同一機關對同一廠商數項違私行為累計計算執行刊登期間"},{"start":2540.515,"end":2569.418,"text":"此外 廠商已被另一機關停權中 後續機關執行停權應至該期間結束後 接續刊登以解決前述制度的缺點 結議工程會透過本次修法 其政府採購整體環境可以更公開透明 更有實質競爭效果 改善類幣驅逐良幣讓二值廠商停權隔離更久 使更好的"},{"start":2570.579,"end":2594.412,"text":"廠商進入政府採購市場提升採購及公共品質目前草案仍在預告徵求意見期間工程會後續將依法制作業程序報行政院審查後送大院審議 尚期各位委員先進予以支持 謝謝另外針對大院"},{"start":2596.391,"end":2624.71,"text":"黃婕等委員就政府採購法年紀條文修正草案計20案提出本會意見進行指教委員提案版本20案綜合歸納涉及徵修採購法條文計7條說明如下一防範入資廠商參與機制這是第17條之一本會意見現行法規已有防範機制建立維持現行條文"},{"start":2627.349,"end":2654.34,"text":"第二提高借牌出借牌照罪之刑責第87條本會意見加重刑責有嚇阻效果本會尊重第三增訂擔任採購評選評選會委員之限制條件第94條本會意見採購法規對於民意代表不能擔任專家學者委員已有規定且專家學者推薦機制已相當多元建議維持現行條文"},{"start":2656.161,"end":2670.997,"text":"第四 修正外籍勞工用詞為移工第98條本會意見本會研擬之政府採購法部分條文修正草案將第98條鎖定外籍移工用詞修正為外國人"},{"start":2671.778,"end":2691.491,"text":"建議是行政院修法版本提送大院審議後並同審議第五修正停權機制相關內容第101條至第103條本會意見本會研擬之政府採購法部分條件修正草案修正內容大致符合提案委員之版本修正意旨"},{"start":2692.111,"end":2715.553,"text":"又有停錢機制涉及整體運作機制建立市行政院修法版本提送大院審議後來並同審議本會研擬之政府採購法部分條件修正草案目前仍在預告徵求意見期間本會續將依法制作業程序報行政院審查後送大院審查屆時上期各位委員先進亦支持謝謝"},{"start":2731.175,"end":2753.072,"text":"好 現在開始詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員5分鐘二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止三 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診四 暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":2768.188,"end":2791.494,"text":"好 我們現在好 特別補充報告 其餘機關所送書面報告 經列入紀錄刊登公報 特辭補充說明 接下來我們就請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷召委執行"},{"start":2796.621,"end":2801.129,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":2806.236,"end":2831.084,"text":"委員長主委好 主委本次政府採購法歷來最大幅度的修法當然我們都希望說修法就是要看到問題來解決問題並且往前邁進加強行政效率那現在我們政府採購法的工程會的版本也在做公告期間到目前已經公告了將近快一個半月的時間了對那有沒有聽到什麼樣的一個回饋"},{"start":2832.591,"end":2854.067,"text":"外界很多人可能對於是說把三家首次公開招標達三家的投票加數的限制給拿掉這個部分是有疑慮的這部分有公開我們看到一些工協會有表達這個需要再考慮的意見是包括說工種理事長潘俊隆理事長就說這樣搞恐怕會有弊病"},{"start":2854.827,"end":2867.561,"text":"媒體也有報導而且講是說如果說一家廠商跟機關講好就可以開標決標長此下來可能會有後遺症如果說上市公司有上下其手的空間對採購的角度來講不太好"},{"start":2868.902,"end":2891.754,"text":"來 主委說明一下這個只要是時機已經不一樣我剛才提過採購法是沿用39年的相關條例來辦理那過去政府辦理政府採購公告在比方說縣政府門口然後公開在報紙然後這個廠商要去領標也要到現場投標也到現場容易衍生一些微標那現在已經是"},{"start":2893.836,"end":2910.212,"text":"這個整個資訊這麼公開這麼多元所以所有的採購都公告在政府的電子採購網上面大家都能夠搜尋得到然後領標各種方式的領標都可以有郵寄然後有電子領標已經高達99.6%了"},{"start":2912.734,"end":2938.176,"text":"那這一次修法又新增這個相關電子投標的這樣的規定所謂資訊公開跟以前是完全不一樣不會有重複以前那種會讓廠商來脅迫其他廠商來微標的情形所以我們認為三家三除一家那麼這個因為資訊已經公開了所以衍生微標這些弊端是幾乎不可能"},{"start":2938.536,"end":2958.827,"text":"你指的是像以前一樣就是說他可能用技術性杯葛讓那廠商沒有辦法到場他就在門口等看誰來領標同行都知道所以就是你把標單拿過來這個暴力脅迫違標是過去經常發生的事情好 但是主委本席也看到這個工總理事長他也提到他說他也不是完全的反對"},{"start":2959.687,"end":2978.974,"text":"對 他有提到是說工程會可以審慎考慮如果最有利標取消三家投票限制這可以接受因為最有利標這個是機關部分他已經有一些想法他可能希望是說有一些比較這個業績比較良好的這個廠商來去做這個相關投標但如果說是最低價標"},{"start":2980.174,"end":3007.909,"text":"也要取消這三家那會不會衍生一個情況就是說有廠商他就投標投標完之後他可能不符合市場上的一個行情那到時候他又用其他的方式來這點說明一下因為我們要的是要避免弊案的發生我們最有利標大部分都是標的比較大的案所以他有資格的廠商相對比較少所以呢而且這個整個案的形成包括"},{"start":3008.669,"end":3033.136,"text":"核定包括這個預算都資訊都已經很久大家都知道所以我們說取消三家這個影響並不大那至於這個低價標一般標的是比較小價金額比較少的符合資格的廠商很多是 也是民眾大家會擔心的我們雖然說刪除三家的限制一家就可以開標但是那麼多廠商針對一個標的所以一家"},{"start":3034.556,"end":3061.934,"text":"單獨去決標的那個機率就是比例也不會太高啦所以我們目的是希望說這個大家都能夠第一時間去參與然後比較有效率主委那我想請教過去到現在因為我們也看到有報導講不具名的官員說其實現行法規無法第一次開標就決標小型標案頂多晚半個月大型標案頂多晚一個月那也因此"},{"start":3062.774,"end":3080.342,"text":"我們手邊一定有這些相關資料因為本席剛剛有提到是說最低價標其實就會擔心說如果你把三家的這個廠商的資格給取消了會不會就有可能就變成是特定廠商就持續的得標到最後變成是其他廠商也覺得說我乾脆不用去投標反正我去也是陪榜"},{"start":3081.274,"end":3103.828,"text":"那我們過去有沒有你有相關的統計資料有多少廠商多少標案因為不是三家而造成第一次流標造成延宕這比例有多少我請蘇剛才回答來簡單說明我相信你們應該已經有統計了就是說第一次因為沒有三家而這個無法開標的這個比例大概佔公開招標的70%70%"},{"start":3106.389,"end":3116.395,"text":"假設一年大概有六萬件的話大概有四萬多件是因為第一次沒有三家來而沒辦法開標的那平均延宕多久平均延宕要看那個"},{"start":3120.353,"end":3146.895,"text":"平均是11天11天但是因為它是大大小小的案件有的大案有的小案平均下來那可能當然是對經了比較高的案件影響比較大那小案本來它本質上就是比較輕微嘛所以平均下來大概是有這樣的延宕是 但是主委我想本席的選區也有很多重大公共工程是流標好幾次但是其實流標的問題"},{"start":3148.596,"end":3168.127,"text":"後來去做通盤檢討並不在於是說他沒有三家來投標他不夠三家而是說他的到底這個工程因為我常講殺頭生意有人做賠錢生意沒人做可能這個工程就是廠商他們來看了之後認為是說開的價格跟這個工程要完成"},{"start":3168.767,"end":3195.384,"text":"的狀況其實是不合他的一個成本的所以他就不願意投標因為剛才的11天是平均那如果說金額幾百億千億以上的大案那個第一次流標以後會時間會比較長而且這個金額大有資格的廠商少往往政府機關採購機關就必須大幅的提高相關的預算那這個大幅提高相關預算如果因應"},{"start":3196.385,"end":3216.214,"text":"因應物價 因應相關的條件當然是也是必須的但是有時候是因為幾次沒有人投標那必須提高這個預算那麼這個也是導致重大公共工程延宕主委 因為現在都還在公告期間所以我們現在是意見的收納跟統整"},{"start":3216.934,"end":3245.623,"text":"本席也提出你剛這樣講的話本席也提出另外的想法就是說如果說幾千億幾百億的大案第一這個案本來就相對比較少第二這樣子的案才需要更一流的廠商而不是只是便宜形式說我為了說要湊足三家廠商我變兩家或一家只要一家人來他符合投標資格我就可以給他發包出去而是應該是找到一個真真正正過去有時機並且也願意來投標的優良廠商嘛"},{"start":3246.543,"end":3266.413,"text":"所以這個部分我想你也聽到因為這都是報導上面有提過很多的一個部分我們會更廣泛參考所以我現在才想是說在公告之前防弊是很重要的一個部分那心力就是說加速行政流程也是重要的部分但怎麼樣取得一個平衡點是不是全部都"},{"start":3267.358,"end":3293.807,"text":"解除三家的限制還是說最有利標解除最低價標不解除我覺得這都還是可以討論我們可以參與好那最後國防部最近的相關採購我想這個也要請教我們主管機關這個採購的主管機關甚至國防部長有難得動怒反向媒體說20年規定一樣只要能預約不用管說公司叫什麼名字登記在哪裡或說過去有沒有實務經驗"},{"start":3295.694,"end":3317.882,"text":"主委你對於這樣的講法能夠認同嗎這個是公司法的規定可能要請教經濟部了這個公司他登記什麼營業項目我們現在講是說我們叫賣這個相關買採購不管是買炸藥買軍火買什麼可是為什麼搖身一變2014年以前都不是做這些本業的我的意思是說那突然間賣馬桶的也可以來幫忙買軍火"},{"start":3318.882,"end":3334.706,"text":"我的意思是說關於這個公司法登記營業項目如果有需要精進那就請經濟部提出精進那站在政府採購主管機關的立場您剛剛也提到幾百億或是幾十億的這種案要不要有經驗我們要呼籲政府採購機關在採購合約的時候應該"},{"start":3340.307,"end":3363.492,"text":"更加強調那麼廠商所需要服務的專業我們也呼籲廠商在採購合約裡面賣馬桶的有沒有賣軍火的專業不是這個是涉及到賣茶葉的有沒有賣軍火的專業這個是涉及到公司的公司法裡面管理營業項目的登記這個目前不是工程會主管那麼經濟部他主管公司法他有他的規定"},{"start":3364.312,"end":3391.079,"text":"是啊 主委 但是您您是身為我們全中央主管機關的採購法的主管機關嘛那本席就想請教啊就是我們政府採購相關的一個條例裡面到底我們的專業認定在哪邊那如果說這樣的話因為為什麼本席特別點出這個問題國防預算從2016年馬政府時代最後一年編列3000億左右到現在一年我們的本預算成長到9000億"},{"start":3393.063,"end":3413.264,"text":"那人員的部分一回事那如果說除人員以外其他都是採購啊那因為其他都是採購所以說我們才要更重視專業啊所以我剛剛很認同主委剛剛的講法啊你一定要有相關的專業啊而不是像國防部長惱羞成怒講說為什麼要管他"},{"start":3413.957,"end":3429.025,"text":"為什麼要管他什麼名字什麼背景反正他能履約就好了啊能夠這樣做嗎包委員 站在政府採購的立場就剛主委講的要確保履約嘛那當然他必須具有專業所以他的政府採購的管控是分兩階段"},{"start":3430.106,"end":3457.833,"text":"一個是所謂的基本的規格基本的資料那這個機關他可以依據採購的個案去設定那麼現在會衍生這個問題是因為在公司法的管制上面他並沒有不會去針對特別譬如說貿易他不會去講說你是做什麼樣的貿易除非他有所謂的專案有些特許的行業不能理論上他不會就做這個區隔但是在政府採購法上面如果說他達到是一個特殊的"},{"start":3458.413,"end":3482.376,"text":"或者是巨額的採購的時候他還可以再要求其他的譬如說他禮約的時機等等的所以事實上並不是採購本身設計有問題而是個案在執行的時候應該符合這幾個標準去執行比較不會跟社會的認知落差是 所以說這就是本席強調的為什麼在這件事情上面會奇怪的地方第一"},{"start":3483.377,"end":3510.832,"text":"為什麼很多的公司都是2024年之後搖身一變他去做變更營業項目登記然後就有軍火相關的項目他就可以來得標那再來是過去都沒有投標的經驗突然間他要來投標跨行 隔行如隔山就沒有想到他可以直接插進來然後國防部就可以得標而且他就可以有履約那某種程度上大家就覺得是說這樣子履約行不行他採購機關是可以限定一些時機"},{"start":3512.685,"end":3540.563,"text":"是 那但是現在都沒有國防部現在都沒有設定國防部現在都沒有設定所以主委你講到重點啊你來行人啊所以你講到重點就是國防部現在都沒有設定任何的資格他就是完全open只要你能夠履約然後廠商就來投標就得標然後他過去也不看說他過去是賣馬桶的裝潢的賣茶葉的那買的是子彈耶買的是軍炸彈耶"},{"start":3541.707,"end":3569.984,"text":"那這些都是官兵弟兄地線要操作的那如果說有一個品質等相關不好的情況會不會造成官兵弟兄的危險還有剛才提到的它大部分都是貿易 國外進口它並不是自己生產所以採購機關採購機關它事實上可以訂立相關條件是 所以沒有訂立是不是就有瑕疵有時候我們採購法就希望公平公正但也不能夠有一些過當的不當禁止"},{"start":3570.984,"end":3599.084,"text":"主委所以本席真的在這邊我們可以在交通文化好好的討論不帶任何立場今天是國民黨執政如果說有這樣子離譜的標案我一樣提出嚴正的指責是因為本席要的是國家的預算花在刀口上並且要的是不是說國內可以生產成本的價錢還要去跟國外購買買三倍 四倍 五倍的東西很多東西都是"},{"start":3600.329,"end":3629.048,"text":"講白了我們要在這邊做的事情是防弊也要心力行政部門效率要提升可是不能再因為預算增加從3000億變9000億餅變大了結果反而特定人士上下攜手的空間變多了所以我們這次修法裡面把採購企業範本把它這個剛性化來請貴文大院能夠支持將來工程會就更有工具來拘束機關管理政府採購的企業所以本席在這一次的"},{"start":3630.208,"end":3657.48,"text":"這個禮拜的排案討論請詢答沒有逐條審查就是本席也要等行政院的版本也就工程會1月15號公告完畢之後送行政院有沒有信心下個會期可以送進來下個會期可以好下個會可以送進來那本席也會建議下個會期的召委我們送進來之後儘速排審跟我們所有委員的案件一起來能夠修正我們來修正能夠除弊的還是要除弊"},{"start":3658.907,"end":3680.302,"text":"可以嗎 謝謝我們的支持好 謝謝我們洪孟楷召委的執行好 謝謝那再來請第二位林國成委員執行"},{"start":3688.754,"end":3716.393,"text":"謝謝召委 請我們工程會陳主委陳副主委 陳副主委請委員長主委 副主委 早一向工程會在本席當立委之後我非常重視雖然人家號稱小單位但是我認為非常重要的職責"},{"start":3718.13,"end":3744.891,"text":"為什麼 全國公共工程所有的合約 所有的息資一定要公共工程委員會他來做一些前提的規劃那當然 我在想我要談的議題跟昭緯談的議題差不多第一個 國防部最近"},{"start":3746.623,"end":3771.873,"text":"標案爭議頻傳這裡面就是要注意請主委跟副主委要注意小蝦米吃大金魚人家不是要公平嗎但是我不管國防部國防部過去他們在做事情當然他是以實際為準但是20年是這樣20年以後"},{"start":3775.731,"end":3802.08,"text":"的廠商思想邏輯跟他做生意的方法完全不一樣所以變成投機起腳的人就會變成公司小金魚他還是會吃大金魚這個亂象就請諸委一定要去注意那我還特別要提就是當我們疫情最嚴重"},{"start":3803.22,"end":3830.87,"text":"我們的蛋最嚴重的時候我就感覺到很奇怪資本額50億可以飆到1億多這個就是說資本額不對稱為什麼要設計資本額資本額不大當然就不能飆到我一個限制的金額你不能50萬的金額他公司破產都無法去賠償這個我要建議我們工程會要有所規範"},{"start":3832.574,"end":3846.157,"text":"就像很簡單啊你剛才所講的所有公司的有些規範是經濟不管但是我的看法跟你相反只要跟工程會有關的"},{"start":3847.372,"end":3876.079,"text":"公共工程委員會當然要管啊亂象你當然要去就政啊你亂象雖然沒法但是公共工程委員會組織架構這麼嚴謹你很簡單啊你要發現亂象要替老百姓該修的就要修像國防部他只有更改進出口41天他就可以標到這個案"},{"start":3877.717,"end":3900.593,"text":"這個很亂象就會變成剛才昭緯所講開茶葉店資本額10萬他可以飆到幾千萬的工程在台南裝潢公司他又去把這個經濟部把所有的業務把它增加他竟然可以飆到6億的炸彈"},{"start":3902.711,"end":3919.947,"text":"這叫什麼 這叫做小蝦米吃大鯨魚這類所以我們的法律沒有規範啊 你沒有錯啊但是問題亂象已經出來 既然亂象出來公共工程委員會勢必想辦法去應對"},{"start":3921.408,"end":3941.511,"text":"那當然國防部有沒有錯國防部當然也沒有錯啊因為我立人來就是這樣可是你到底我們公共工程委員會不是指責你們的錯誤可是社會亂象出來的時候我們主管機關就要未以從謀想像如何還備不是嗎"},{"start":3942.392,"end":3952.874,"text":"主委在這個部分本席當然講這些沒有指責公共工程委員會但是我也不贊成你去推給經濟部如果是這樣的話"},{"start":3954.264,"end":3975.109,"text":"那我們存在的必要是什麼存在的必要就是跟公共工程有關的有關法令規範因為任何一個公家機關是依照我們的準則來的所以在這個部分既然有社會亂象是否針對這些問題來研究因為我們接下來又要修華"},{"start":3976.189,"end":3981.072,"text":"修法當然不足的地方盡快修啊我們行政院版發生這個問題就以表現在執政黨發現這種亂象你們自動自發去做防備動作"},{"start":3990.799,"end":3999.205,"text":"主委 本席提出這個看法你的看法如何好 謝謝委員的指教的確是如果說機關採購為了滿足或達到採購的品質我們希望機關在採購的評分上"},{"start":4008.652,"end":4037.77,"text":"或者是合約的要求上必須如果是專業採購那必須增加這個投標廠商的專業的時機另外他的履約能力如剛才委員所提的他的資本額很小但是這個標取的標案很大所以我們就比較考慮他有沒有這個履約能力或後續的保險的相關措施來作為決標的要件這個工程會來研究必要的時候那麼新增一些指引這個部分主委"},{"start":4038.63,"end":4064.742,"text":"因為我一向對於公共工程委員會陳主委跟陳副主委你們在領導之下的委員會我很少在指責你們我認為都是用鼓舞的方式建言的意識讓你們去把所謂這個亂象因為我說實在身為一個民意代表反對小蝦米去吃大金魚這一類叫做亂象"},{"start":4066.104,"end":4082.992,"text":"好 這是要亂象所以我要拜託主委針對這些部分真的要盡快未以籌謀 緩緩措施要把它因為我們政府機關本來發現問題就要趕快改進啊那這個亂象是真的這樣繼續下去對執政黨 對"},{"start":4086.974,"end":4107.819,"text":"工程會都沒有什麼幫助啊他只有害處啊那既然是這樣你們沒有包庇的嫌疑那為什麼不能去修華去你最起碼如果我跟主委建議啦公共工程委員會該有的作為你就行文給各單位我管你國防部"},{"start":4108.888,"end":4138.488,"text":"我管你什麼單位你以後針對這些敬請貴單位要遵守公共工程裡面的公平競爭以及不利於老百姓的東西那這個部分你要去行文要告知他們提醒他們最起碼你們有動作所以主委我是建議這樣修華如果來不及要行文把你們立場講得很清楚"},{"start":4139.028,"end":4150.503,"text":"也就是老百姓遺溺的東西請全國標案各單位執行單位要去注意這些細節我想 主委 你的看法呢"},{"start":4151.349,"end":4179.508,"text":"我們會遵照委員的指導來研議相關的含釋或相關的憲政的指引來喊醒各機關最起碼人家才知道陳金德主委跟陳滬主委你們有作為啊對不對至於要不要修華來約束那是另外一個層次嘛行政院竟然要提出版本這其實很好啊把它規劃下去我相信這個小蝦米吃大鯨魚這個問題"},{"start":4181.489,"end":4208.547,"text":"我坦白講也不是你們叫他做也不是國防部要去包庇他是存在的一個亂象所以我還是希望主委這個部分要特別最後最後因為有很多事情人家說這個什麼叫做有利標什麼叫做有利標看起來這個就是他有後台有能力去做這個標案但是站在你們的立場"},{"start":4210.19,"end":4219.426,"text":"站在你們立場當然是公平公正這是最重要也是你們的職責那我還是希望再度提醒我們主委"},{"start":4221.22,"end":4249.539,"text":"刪除三家的限制說實在的這些萬萬不可所以要重新考慮都聽聽協則專家他們的看法以及這不是找毛環這是基本的要素也就是投標廠商只有一家他就可以去標說實在主委以一般思考邏輯來講這個部分是不符合邏輯的"},{"start":4250.68,"end":4279.318,"text":"三家招標你說你第二次我們本來就有降下本來這個制度就有了第一次三家不能開標第二次的話他就沒有這個限制那為什麼要全部第一標就把它取消掉這個真的建議主委跟副主委要稍微要研究一下這個路子後門一開那投標案子會更混亂這一點我特別"},{"start":4279.878,"end":4303.473,"text":"提醒我們陳主委跟陳副主委一下好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們現在先確定議事錄請教議事錄有沒有意見各位委員對上次會議議事錄有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝 議事錄確定接下來再請第三位蔡其昌委員質詢"},{"start":4317.352,"end":4341.647,"text":"主委我想前面兩位委員的質詢雖然他們兩個跟我都不同黨不過我覺得有一些建議特別是他們理性提出的建議我覺得"},{"start":4342.728,"end":4364.151,"text":"應該公共工程會要適度的聽聽並且做一些研議的工作為什麼我這樣講呢其實我們要先讓社會大眾並不能夠因為在朝野或者說台灣政治社會對立的情況底下很多事情都被混淆也就是說"},{"start":4365.438,"end":4394.308,"text":"我相信剛剛包括前面委員去提到這些所謂社會爭議的這些標案我們要先確定他有沒有違採購法如果行政部門認為OK在招標的程序都沒有違法甚至有一些案子提起訴訟法院也認為沒有違法這是一個在法律程式上我們面對社會爭議的案子大家就依法行政但是"},{"start":4395.013,"end":4422.812,"text":"主委也要有一個同樣有一個觀點就是社會一般大眾的認知是什麼譬如說資本額太低飆很大的案子那這時候我們會告訴他他能不能夠履約啊可是主委你也知道有些台灣很多企業他很喜歡把資本額做小然後獲利能力變得很大他EPS可能1000元因為他資本額太小了"},{"start":4424.226,"end":4446.697,"text":"可是對一般社會大眾的認知這個程式而言這個那麼小的公司去吃那麼大飆那麼大的金額大家先天就會認為懷疑會覺得怪怪的會覺得這個沒有問題嗎所以這個會挑戰一般社會的認知就像我們要把三家"},{"start":4448.818,"end":4460.843,"text":"過去我們叫做要最少要三間來標啦我們現在把那個三家廢除一家我想剛剛我好像在路上有聽到那個數我們有公布一個數據嘛就是"},{"start":4462.942,"end":4485.952,"text":"流標的因為只有因為標不到三家而沒辦法決標的案子有多少件第一次決標流標的是不足三家是三百七十以上對對所以在我們透過科學數字的管理我覺得這個比例很高嘛所以效率就會下降這個就不是常態對對對所以呢但是社會為什麼我剛剛講說"},{"start":4489.402,"end":4504.182,"text":"數字的論述這個沒有問題我都尊重因為公共懲惡會要提出這個修法也一定有一個科學的根據有一個在實務面操作裡面的需求甚至公共懲惡會認為下錯藥了就是我們要防弊"},{"start":4505.043,"end":4526.13,"text":"房幣的邏輯不應該三家或許這個都你們曾經在內部開會討論過等等的問題但一樣的道理他又要挑戰一次社會的認知社會認知會認為以前三間在飆其實社會也不一定知道說很多三間在飆其實都是很認真飆的那一家去找兩家不大想飆的一定要三間不然你們兩個來倒飆"},{"start":4527.725,"end":4552.905,"text":"他們沒有 不一定有作弊喔他們不一定有作弊但他可能因為他就沒有人想做但是就老是他一個人想做然後他一直流標所以呢他就去找兩個朋友說你兩個來標他也沒有 兩個也沒有串通也沒有做什麼這個案盤的交易但他為了要趕快把這事情標到 把它執行所以就會有這個現象的產生所以我們也覺得所以機關買機票要三家以上"},{"start":4553.836,"end":4582.444,"text":"對 所以這個就是我們過去在他買一張機票要三家以上所以沒有三家以上被起訴沒錯所以這裡面有很多的問題所以你們才會提這個修法但我的意思是說有時候這些修法都要跟社會認知要做一定程度的說明跟解釋也就是大家想像裡面不合理大家想像裡面超乎他個人的主觀認知那這時候我們可能就要一點社會說服跟溝通的過程"},{"start":4583.243,"end":4599.296,"text":"否則我們要挑戰的是社會的認知這個叫約定俗成這個叫它刻板印象這個叫它既定的邏輯要挑戰這個主委這要有一些論述也可能要有一些時間不然我們會面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":4600.407,"end":4615.229,"text":"就是說大家認為說這怎麼合理 這樣合得來可是我們其實在觀光層我會大家專家學者你們去討論然後實務面去看很多不合理一定要規定三家其實它是產生很多的問題不合理所以"},{"start":4616.147,"end":4641.549,"text":"挑戰大家都希望連能政府要清連又要有能力就是有效率啦大家都希望建立一個連能政府但連跟能之間常常會相互抵銷啦會相互抵銷那怎麼樣不讓兩者相互抵銷兩者可以相輔相成然後更連更能我認為這個跟很多時候都會跟社會的既定印象"},{"start":4642.659,"end":4649.377,"text":"不一定是對的既定印象但它就是社會的一個既定印象它會產生干戈或衝突所以我剛剛"},{"start":4650.936,"end":4679.346,"text":"的想法裡面我一直想跟主委討論這個問題就是說你們要做這些事情本席不會說反對啦但是呢我認為那個社會說服溝通怎麼樣提出數據來告訴工程委員會沒有在新的修法裡面我們沒有任何的想要讓建立這個聯能政府有下降甚至我可以讓他提升我覺得這個這個可能在要有一點說服的過程或者怎麼說明"},{"start":4680.829,"end":4695.347,"text":"這個已經是三家以上這是七十年前的事情 一甲子的那七十年前跟現在的通訊環境完全不一樣完全不同不同的通訊環境然後以前公告在縣府門口"},{"start":4696.708,"end":4721.631,"text":"公司本人要去領標 外面就圍起來了投標也是 你本人要去投標外面就擋著你不讓你去投標那現在電子領標 電子投標所有的公告都在電子採購網那我們還有其他配套措施機關預算通過的時候適當時機他就必須公告這個採購預算採購的相關計畫所以等標期也拉長"},{"start":4722.572,"end":4729.629,"text":"所以我們雖然說改成一家就可以開票那反而比例反而會促成更多人去投票"},{"start":4730.589,"end":4737.294,"text":"反而會刺激更多人去投標會減少一家投標的這個情形這是我的判斷"},{"start":4760.709,"end":4786.903,"text":"但我就要講就是說他是我們挑戰的不是我跟你講的不是你現在講這些東西的對錯而是一般民眾對於你剛剛所講到為什麼當時要三加來標他有一個歷史的因素那這個歷史因素會導致當時雖然這樣做當時是這樣做可是他後遺症很多那現在的環境又走到哪裡根本不需要這樣做所以以前我們治療肚子痛"},{"start":4788.856,"end":4816.331,"text":"當時的肚子痛的用藥雖然它很多副作用但是當時它是最有效的方法現在科技藥已經走到這裡了我們治療肚子痛根本就不需要這個我們有新的藥這新的藥吃下去不但肚子痛更快好而且還沒有後遺症我的意思就是說你要去說服不大家都習慣了對不對 我阿嬤我肚子痛她老是拿那一個她說阿嬤不用用這個現在還有更厲害的"},{"start":4817.578,"end":4836.291,"text":"主委你懂我在講什麼巴勒葉 巴辣對 以前那個配方那個秘方很多所以這就是我說的社會認知以前那很有效但是社會不知道觀光工程委員會你們經過了什麼時間的演變什麼很多的方法所以今天已經要希望走到這裡來"},{"start":4837.412,"end":4856.629,"text":"所以我認為這個很重要第二個我們這個採購法裡面我有一個像96條我們這一次修法裡面我看到我們還是沒有去修說我們這裡面96條寫說機關於招標文件中規定優先採購取得政府認可之環境保護標章使用許可"},{"start":4857.711,"end":4869.718,"text":"但我看現在環境部基本上在這個資源循環推動法裡面他已經規定他已經不再去談環境標章的這個產品他是直接跟你講說"},{"start":4872.777,"end":4888.212,"text":"這個依22條核准之循環產品或循環服務或其他綠色意涵之產品或服務換言之在環境部的資源循環推動法裡面它其實更廣泛的在說明"},{"start":4889.344,"end":4917.035,"text":"這個所謂的綠色採購但我們好像還只限於環境標章主委 這個應該要好 這個我們會遵照委員的意見來做修正應該納進 現在新的資源循環推動法也行政院還正在審議啦對對對所以應該不要 他修好了結果我們的公共整合採購法又用舊的邏輯跟概念在講好 這部分我們遵照委員的意見來修正好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":4920.511,"end":4939.447,"text":"好 謝謝接下來再請陳樹越委員質詢謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委陳金樂主委請委員長"},{"start":4946.716,"end":4964.658,"text":"主委早那今天就是我們會針對就是政府採購法的修法進行詢問我們也看到就是目前工程會預告要進行這個政府採購法的修法可以說是歷年來幅度最大的一次那相關的條文"},{"start":4965.619,"end":4970.141,"text":"有52條那主要的重點大概就是四個方向就是要強化這個採購資訊及早公開然後刪除三家合格廠商投標使得開標"},{"start":4977.489,"end":5002.503,"text":"第二個就是簡化最有利標的作業第三就是強化政府採購契約範本的拘束力第四個就是針對停權制度增訂廠商的免責條款剛剛有幾位委員都有針對修法的部分提出了一些意見即使本席針對這一次的修法當然也是有一些疑慮就是說包括刪除三家合格廠商投標"},{"start":5003.323,"end":5024.32,"text":"使得開標這樣子的規定過去我們會有這樣子的規定當然就是說要防止違標提升採購效率跟公平性我們在修法之後我們目前工程會是希望提高發包的效率來做這樣子的修訂"},{"start":5025.16,"end":5051.465,"text":"那這樣子的話如果說之後是不是投標的工程就是發包的工程只要有一家投標就可以讓他得標嗎就是因為目前相關資訊的取得領標投標都已經電子化或即將電子化所以廠商對於這個投標的相關資訊都很充分那我們也會"},{"start":5052.825,"end":5081.104,"text":"這個要求機關寄找公告這個相關的計畫跟預算等標期也會比較長等等所以我們認為要改善目前第一次決定第一次開標流標的比例很高就是未達三家的比例很高所以我們希望改正這樣的採購效率所以呢我們也徵詢很多意見贊成的也有啦反對的也有那我們也聽取各界意見當中希望把這個"},{"start":5082.325,"end":5096.57,"text":"三家以上開的規定來做個修正因為我們看整個採購協定歐盟國家幾乎沒有這個三家的規定所以我們在這次的採購法的修正這個是主要的修正的重點"},{"start":5098.345,"end":5114.774,"text":"當然就是說工程會針對這個發報的數據來做一個就是判斷認為說在開標流標的比例未達三家然後流標比例非常的高所以你們要取消這個三家"},{"start":5115.314,"end":5140.483,"text":"投標的這樣子的一個限制那其實流標應該也有其他的因素存在比如說是不是這個利潤太低或者是工程技術性太高難度太高導致的流標所以未必說跟這個三家合格廠商為什麼會為打三家去投標可能會有其他因素我們是不是也要去"},{"start":5141.423,"end":5168.426,"text":"衡量考量我再補充一下剛講的說取消三家並不表示說只要一家來就一定要給他因為他還是有基本資格或是他的旅業能力的限制那在我們的這個決標方法上面還有一種就是合格以後他才能進入到最低標所以不會說因為取消三家只要任何一家來都一定得標不是這個意思"},{"start":5169.307,"end":5186.187,"text":"第二個就是說這一次修改這個取消三家除了效率以外其實因為在實務上看到非常多的這些廠商就是剛文有提到他事實上是為了符合三家來的那他可能因此會處罰"},{"start":5187.769,"end":5201.88,"text":"他可能會被刑罰處罰會被停權那時候我們實務上看到非常多的案例甚至是機關請他去找三家來的所以他們會在這些案子裡面不斷的申冤"},{"start":5202.64,"end":5224.037,"text":"另外一個就是說現在的這個所謂要三家才能開標的話等於是說因為我是這個如果是我正常的廠商我沒有辦法擔保會不會有三家可是如果沒有三家來變成是我負擔流標的責任等於是處罰這個合格的廠商所以有這樣綜合的一個考量所以不是單一的目標啦"},{"start":5224.477,"end":5252.343,"text":"是 那剛剛副主委有提到就是說會有一些履約能力相關的一個考量那這個應該跟我們在第三個強化政府採購契約範本的拘束率裡面這邊會有一些的條件的一個列就是把它列出來 列舉那這個部分的話會不會造成說另外一種維標 綁標因為就是說我們如果在採購範本裡面"},{"start":5254.224,"end":5267.923,"text":"去針對這個工程的一個條件給它提高就是加鹽這個條件的話是不是就等於會在確保就是特定某家廠商才能有那個條件來投標"},{"start":5268.991,"end":5295.711,"text":"我們所謂把企業範本剛性化就是說我們目前的狀況各機關參考工程會所訂定的企業範本是原則所以很多機關它制定很多機關包括新政院底下很多機關它制定他們的採購企業範本有時候這個企業範本是有利於甲方的它對投票廠商的權利有時候會並不那麼的考慮到"},{"start":5296.631,"end":5321.685,"text":"所以我們希望基於站在雙方和平等的這個角色來把這個企業範本來個比較完善希望機關來遵循而不是說有些機關他長年一年幾千億的預算所以當然企業範本就是他們自己的企業範本就訂的比較條件很苛所以長期下來就這個對工程品質也不好所以我們希望來改這個企業範本"},{"start":5322.795,"end":5351.075,"text":"我想就是說剛剛我們蔡議員提出的建議我覺得這個真的是我們工程會要好好的去思考就是說我們如果刪除了三家的限制之後我們之後是不是還能夠兼顧這個房幣然後要如何兼顧對於公共工程的工程品質是否會造成影響這個是我們需要好好的去思考的就是說我們要怎樣真的又要就是連結又要效能"},{"start":5352.276,"end":5360.654,"text":"有達到這樣子兼顧的一個結果這部分我們工程會應該要好好的去思考那這部分是不是可以請主委再說明一下"},{"start":5361.718,"end":5387.919,"text":"我們目前這個比較大的案當然是符合資格的家屬比較少就都有利標那比方說小兒採個15萬以上的15萬以上說多不多縮小不小但是很多機關辦理15萬年以上的公開招標仍然是要三家以上所以有時候要湊足三家剛才副主委講的往往很容易觸發"},{"start":5389,"end":5416.953,"text":"這很多公務機關一直有反應這件事情所以它的金額不一樣開標方式絕標方式不一樣我們都必須來考量謝謝委員的指教那我們另外一方面我們的修法重點就是說針對違規廠商停權規定這個部分我們就是有廠商的免責條款就是說要避免一人犯錯全體受罰這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":5418.033,"end":5446.64,"text":"可是这样子的状况就是说我们目前修订的部分就是有增订说一定有合理监督管理机制并落实执行的这个部分我们就是会有免责的这样的状况可是这部分也会让人家产生一个疑虑就是说一定有合理监督管理机制那这个要由谁来认定就是说是业务机关的承办员或者是主管就可以来做"},{"start":5447.838,"end":5462.631,"text":"一個認定還是說會在另外成立一個審查委員會來做一個認定報委那個我們的將來停權的機制上面你要做成停權的一個認定必須組成一個停權審查委員會"},{"start":5464.372,"end":5481.171,"text":"第二個就是說這些免責事實上本來就已經存在於個別的法律譬如說民法裡面它有對於僱傭人的免責條款那麼行政法裡面有對於僱傭人的免責條款但是相對於那兩部法律的免責條款因為它非常空幻"},{"start":5481.812,"end":5506.149,"text":"在食物上運用的機率很少所以我們在取食物跟現實的狀況底下那麼才會取一個中間值就是說你要有一個實際的監督的機制而且你要真的去執行而且你不能因此得到利益那將來會有這個聽檢委員會以及將來處理申訴的機關甚至由法院會形成一個比較系統性的見解"},{"start":5506.889,"end":5526.92,"text":"是 好 那目前我們就是還在公告期間還在收集意見那我們也希望就是說我們工程會就是要廣泛的收集各方的意見包括業務單位的或者是廠商的或者是一些專家學者的意見希望就是說在這一個修訂的草案能夠更符合實際的一個需求謝謝好 謝謝接下來再請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":5543.66,"end":5544.823,"text":"好謝謝張偉那我們一樣請工程會陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":5553.417,"end":5577.096,"text":"委員長主委早主委我想一開始我們先來釐清幾個一個問題就現在我們政府採購裡面當然很多時候都會要求禁用所謂大陸製或中國製的這個產品那我想問一下主委到底我們在政府採購裡面現在禁用就禁止使用這個相關產品是針對特定的產業特定的這個零件規範還是說全面性的我們要去禁止這樣子的中國製產品的出現"},{"start":5578.777,"end":5605.516,"text":"禁止的部分当然是机关衡量他采购的项目如果他有资安的问题或者是本来有限制的项目这个采购机关可以自己来依照法律来决定那现行的状况因为在目前的供应链里面到底我们的公共工程上有没有办法实际上第一个问题说能不能实际上真的做到说完全的去避免"},{"start":5606.457,"end":5616.492,"text":"使用到中國製產品這是第一個問題那第二個問題是還是要回到我們工程會回到我們這個主管機關這邊我們有沒有能力去查核這件事情 主委"},{"start":5619.227,"end":5641.505,"text":"公共工程目前對這個所謂的錄製的產品或零件的管制原則第一個就是說如果涉及到治安或者是國安譬如說這個關鍵的基礎設施那這裡面可能要如果有問題的話要斷絕這個所謂的紅色的供應密碼"},{"start":5642.506,"end":5671.272,"text":"那在個案裡面因為確實像委員講的因為這整個國際的貿易形態的關係可能沒有辦法百分之百的禁止所以目前是由機關那麼看標案本身的性質以及它的採購的目的如果說真的是沒有辦法它必須使用但是沒有國安考量的話也沒有其他產業上面對本國造成不公平的狀況底下原則上機關是可以例外去採用"},{"start":5671.872,"end":5701.712,"text":"好就我目前了解掌握到當然現在我們在做這個事情投票前是由透過經濟部的相關平台就是主管機關去查說他當年當然他的投資的這個書面有沒有問題嗎這第一個比較簡單的部分那第二部分當然看說產品本身驗收的時候這個產品本身他沒有符合相關的這個產力的規範但是我們從實務上看到過去幾件當然這個跟他大部分都跟國家安全比較有關係的幾個單位包含中科院陸軍司令部各單位還有桃園捷運等等的"},{"start":5702.152,"end":5727.53,"text":"它的理論上 包含說我們看到一個這個所謂的監視器主機的主機板它是在台檢疫組裝之後然後貼上面等於台灣台灣製造的標籤或相關的很多的相關的採購都有這個問題所以我才問說到底我們訂了這樣子的規範那我們政府有沒有能力去在事前去查那如果事後被人家檢舉才發現的話那中間的空窗起的這個責任由誰來承擔"},{"start":5729.645,"end":5756.317,"text":"採購機關或他的上級機關他當然不一定要等驗收他隨時到工地都可以去查核那作為主管機關的工程會當然也有集合小組所以是盡力可以隨時都可以查核那我們碰到一些個案有時候是驗收的時候才發現有時候是當初沒有得標的廠商檢舉的所以這一類的情形算是情節算嚴重那機關當然可以提報停權"},{"start":5758.02,"end":5781.358,"text":"來依照101的條文來提報停權這一列還是陸續有發生沒有錯我知道我剛剛其實主委沒錯就是說會停權會有相關的懲處但是我想問的是說因為這次已經發生了比如說我們列出這幾個案子它已經發生了那發生後你們繼續停權那停權到新的廠商投票之前的這段時間的空窗期或這個部分的這個補救措施我們現在有機制做這個東西嗎"},{"start":5783.527,"end":5804.308,"text":"就這個階段這個時間你控訴的時間可以按照他的合約來做停權或者廢標的一些程序或請副主委來講說那個就是有關這個怎麼去發現當然在採購法跟採購合約上面那麼機關他可以要求廠商提出證明譬如說你進口那你要提"},{"start":5804.929,"end":5819.21,"text":"你的來源證明給我看嘛那我們現在跟這個海關總署那邊有建立連結將來可以直接由廠商指定把這個進口報單報給機關他就可以查核"},{"start":5820.191,"end":5848.045,"text":"比較難查的是貼牌那貼牌就要靠查核檢驗或者是有內部檢舉那如果說他被發現有這樣的一個情況機關他會進行停權的程序在停權過程因為不確定是不是有過程停權可是就他這個機關本身他如果核有規定他可以禁止他來參與他本身這個機關的其他的標案但是就很難禁止他去參與其他機關的標案"},{"start":5849.105,"end":5862.914,"text":"因為這個停權不確定如果說立即把它禁止的話也有可能最後發現是烏龍所以這兩者之間變成是有一個取捨了好 副主委我們先請你們等一下我們請國防部採購司採購發報處處長好了"},{"start":5877.851,"end":5896.113,"text":"處長早因為剛好這幾個案子跟國防部都是比較有相關然後想請教一下就目前來說因為國軍採購是禁用所謂大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收的作業這部分那這部分的話你們因為房廠或因為茶廠然後在事前能夠發現的這個比例有多少大概有嗎"},{"start":5897.475,"end":5912.891,"text":"有發現過嗎事前如果去紡廠因為你們有這個紡廠的相關規定在工程企業裡面可能有相關的規定那因為事前去紡廠然後發現他的這個產品不合規的比例有嗎多多少少有發現過但是這個比例沒有來統計過"},{"start":5916.334,"end":5937.129,"text":"好那在你看到就其實因為我覺得第一個是我們現在已經有這樣發生已經已經有這麼多案件了那在一個比較核心問題是我們現在對美採購的武器也非常多那今年去年去年年中的時候有一個美國的這個數據分析公司他公布的最新的國安評論報告裡面光是五角大廈他的"},{"start":5938.17,"end":5956.524,"text":"這個一級的供應商裡面它有大概百分之十百分之九點三的這個產業是跟這個中國有關係是中國直接投資等等的那我想問說我們我國現在國防在採購裡面對於美國軍售部分我們有沒有辦法去禁止使用大陸的廠牌中國製造的廠牌跟產品我們有相關的條約嗎還是沒有"},{"start":5959.326,"end":5977.491,"text":"還是對媒採購它只要美國願意送來它只要願意賣給我們我們只要買得到都可以它裡面的這些零組件有沒有使用到中國廠牌因為為什麼今天特別在這邊提出來這個問題因為這個問題其實包括美國國會自己也非常關心說他們也是透過這一次的報告才發現原來他們自己"},{"start":5978.431,"end":6006.538,"text":"這個美國的一級的供應商裡面有這麼多的這個中國製的這個公司在裡面那今天我們主要的武器採購是對媒採購那採購完之後來到台灣因為我們自己有相關的規範那問題是我們對媒採購的合約條約裡面有沒有相關的規範過當然我們相關的發家書上面都有相關的綠定是禁止錄製品的採購的部分那如果來的話假設有是我們有我們有退貨的機制退貨機制吧好 謝謝我們處長請回"},{"start":6011.502,"end":6039.457,"text":"主委我要問的是說就是其實我們在整個公共工程委員會的採購的這個法裡面在你的機制裡面有沒有事前不管是你們也好或是各主管機關去做相關的這個查查或訪場的時候有沒有事前預防的機制如果有為什麼還會發生像前面提到的2025年光是2025年本身就有這麼多件相關的採購是用大陸製產品那未來要怎麼去避免這樣子的弊端"},{"start":6041.869,"end":6064.694,"text":"我們這次修法裡面要把這個企業範本把它剛性化就是說機關必須要遵循這個政府採購法裡面的相關規定或工程會訂定的企業範本來訂所以如果這樣子的話我們會把委員剛才所重視的在將來的各式的企業範本裡面來訂定是關於事前查核或者是相關大陸"},{"start":6066.135,"end":6079.091,"text":"這個中國相關的零件或相關產品的查核更加嚴謹這個我們會來研議好 四位那再來就是說這次修法裡面當然大家很關注的所謂三家廠商的這個資格問題那當然"},{"start":6081.374,"end":6103.805,"text":"所謂最有利標部分本席跟其他前面幾位委員的立場差不多最有利標當然有沒有三家我覺得一一差別不大但今天最大問題說這個低價搶標包含大家很在意的包含這個福邁這個東西這個RDX這個炸藥問題跟之前衛福部陶連部立醫院也發生過所謂低價搶標系統上的問題所以大家比較在意的是低價搶標"},{"start":6105.706,"end":6122.346,"text":"那這部分在新的規範裡面如果沒有三家的問題只有一家可以來低價搶標會不會又造成大家這個市場上的亂象產生因為我覺得今天講真的啦有時候那個低價搶標問題有時候是品質你沒有辦法達到那如果你"},{"start":6123.638,"end":6138.969,"text":"超比這個本來的底標低於底標的比例多少有沒有相關的機制去杜絕說他特別用低價比如說我用五成六成的價格來搶標我當然搶到啊但問題是他後面的品質怎麼維護等等的這部分在新的修法版本裡面你們要怎麼去預防這件事情"},{"start":6139.629,"end":6156.426,"text":"報告委員那個有關低價搶標這個事情目前在採購法上面已經有規定了就是說他假設低於底價八成那麼他就必須提出他為什麼可以確保品質如果說還不行還可以叫他提擔保"},{"start":6156.866,"end":6171.882,"text":"那這個規定目前我們又更把它強化了所以並不會這個他有沒有低價來搶標邏輯上面跟他有沒有三家是沒有必然關係因為他縱使是一家他也要受到不能低價來的這個限制這跟委員報告"},{"start":6172.56,"end":6186.941,"text":"最後一點時間因為這個照額站起來了所以在實質上的成本控制就是說因為今天我們政府機關訂出所謂最低標你們一定有你們的市場價格你們仿商的結果訂出一個最低標所以包含說你叫他提出說明"},{"start":6187.702,"end":6202.717,"text":"那我是覺得其實工程會應該更積極的應該有一個委員或一個審核機制去認定說到底這件工程它實質上它的成本本來就應該是多少至少業界價格應該是多少而不是說我低價來七成那七成可以嗎"},{"start":6204.759,"end":6220.88,"text":"這個採購機關他事先會仿價按照他的這個市場行情會仿價所以他會訂定他的底價那往往這些大概都比較金額比較低的才用底價標那現在大部分金額高的大概都是有利標"},{"start":6221.621,"end":6245.474,"text":"好 沒關係 主委後期也會提一個提案啦就針對成本實質審核的部分應該希望共產會能夠幫忙啦我就希望到時候共產會跟我們大院大家都能夠支持去杜絕這種惡質的這種低價搶票的行為發生好不好好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來再請謝榮介委員質詢"},{"start":6247.213,"end":6275.005,"text":"剛剛看到謝榮介委員跟林俊憲委員坐在台下這畫面很美代表我們交通委員會是可以好好討論來主席我們是為了台南市的交通建設未來要怎麼大發電就要交我意見這樣很好我請主委來 陳進德主委請"},{"start":6281.55,"end":6291.455,"text":"委員長 主委長 我對這項修法非常憂心我看你探討幾個 因為我知道很多 為了要修法 因為法保在各機關內有面臨很多困難面臨很多挑戰 所以我想說要來修改"},{"start":6301.636,"end":6321.393,"text":"但是如果放到最高的量就對了我認為說你們收這個二十條是規定什麼情形下可以拆除選舉性的手錶就是說原則上我們原則上是公開手錶嘛都是公開拆開原則上公開手錶但是選舉性的手錶就是說首先扮演你手上的主角心臟之後你來建立一個名單就對了"},{"start":6330.759,"end":6351.41,"text":"只要邀請者已經經過審查過的程序來這樣就可以了就不需要再辦理公開招標了嗎不是不是不是都是公開招標沒有喔我了解到的應該是不是你現在要修法的方向是這樣嗎它是每一個個案這個個案公開招標公告之後"},{"start":6352.37,"end":6369.884,"text":"有興趣的廠商會投嘛那按照我們設定的資格選出來你現在就是說 貼紮 心紮 抽箱 合計 抽箱的名單之後不是所有的 是每個個案你現在要修正經 我們現階段就是說大概有幾種 四五種的情形可以辦理選擇性的指標啦現在啦 現況啦"},{"start":6375.43,"end":6384.963,"text":"那這樣呢 您現在先請教的一項就是說經過主管機關認定者機關就可以辦理選擇性招標"},{"start":6386.889,"end":6405.103,"text":"對不對 對好 來 主管機關什麼人工程會 就是你嘛 對所以你經過 認定過之後他就可以辦你選擇選的招標怎麼還有什麼公開的招標工程會是例外就是說如果在這些要件裡面碰到一些特殊的"},{"start":6406.103,"end":6421.786,"text":"主委啊 不能再例外了啊這真要命耶 這樣下去的時候會大條啊跟我們報告 他這個先建立一個所謂合格廠商 並不是一個我知道嘛 你因為這個條文你這樣一改在全國的 全國的結構 只要你工程會過了OK啊 你說的可以全部可以選擇那個採用選擇性的結構啊 跟不是這條"},{"start":6435.069,"end":6454.862,"text":"我感覺牽涉很大主委我跟委員報告工程會並不是採購機關我們是政府採購的主管機關我知道 但是這些變成是你們認定可以機關就可以採用工程會不會隨便認定這樣你就變成管理有夠大工程會不會隨便去限定一個"},{"start":6463.053,"end":6470.886,"text":"這個沒有特殊的情形會限定說沒有啦 你這樣就變成公共工程委員會你如果認為說這幾間廠商可以這樣其他所有財幹部門都沒辦法"},{"start":6478.317,"end":6497.126,"text":"他就要照你們的規定去用 等於你們有特權嘛你的權利是有夠大的 委員可能誤解了啦不是 但因為你現在講的辦法是說你剛剛解釋是說我公共工程委員會 我們不會誤被認定你誤解了 我們不是指定說哪些廠商可以我們是指定哪些採購的這個標案"},{"start":6501.488,"end":6518.417,"text":"如果說經機關來請示那工程會當然會來考慮對嘛 它清晰過 只要你公共工程委員會認定可以就可以了嘛那機關就可以採用限制性招標了嘛 選擇性招標嘛明確就是這樣嘛這個對機關採購比較有関心沒關係啦 因為這還沒成立還沒煮熟飯啦本席今天給你提出這個 這是說大家各方有意義如何"},{"start":6530.498,"end":6548.832,"text":"是不是可以修復得更漂亮是不是可以修復得更漂亮我不是指責你啦 我也不是在建議你是說將來就變成 公共工程委員會變成太上皇這樣 今天如果你在做主意 我相信你啊有很多人來做主意 我不一定相信這個委員大家個人有意見啊所以包括這個22條 第一項第六款 這很重要"},{"start":6558.14,"end":6572.49,"text":"什麼情形還可以拆除犯罪性的手錶犯罪性的手錶就是 不用公開手錶啦我給大家報告 這樣比較快啦甚至連公告都不用啦犯罪性的手錶就是這樣嘛 就可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約啦這種手錶的特殊度就對了啦 是非常地特殊啦"},{"start":6583.345,"end":6610.957,"text":"理論上來講就是說應該要重演嘛既然要做限制性招標就應該要重演才對馬哥你們現在在這個條文裡面我看到的是有第18條的第3項你們把22條第1項第6款裡面有一條主委我告訴你沒在跟你不知道沒在跟你沒注意到裡面有一句說因為能預見之情形因為能預見之情形你竟然把這規律再提掉"},{"start":6612.81,"end":6638.069,"text":"哇 這事情更加嚴重本來是規定說在周邊的環圍內我們未能意見之情形所以必須追加工程以外的工程是這樣啊所以不需要 如果要另外周邊會發生重大不便嘛所以這有很多困難所以我們才會這樣做嘛結果你現在把這個意見"},{"start":6641.428,"end":6649.815,"text":"因未能意見之情形 要把它提掉 提掉就變成怎樣一百萬要加四十九萬就對了 加五十萬他也不用再照表 他就照原本的想像來說說就好了"},{"start":6655.404,"end":6683.783,"text":"我跟委員說明這句話是罪語啦就是說因為未能預見之情形當然每個機關就是因為未預見所以到時候執行的時候預算高就是做的時候高於原預算嘛或原不然因為未能預見之情形就是阿伯在管控的時候你是不是你如果沒有 如果準備沒有就對了譬如說我們倒過來講假如我是承辦機關我如果有心要做做屋主 做督"},{"start":6685.731,"end":6711.859,"text":"我這工廠1500萬我好保一千萬就好我好保一千萬 特定的人我製錶料好了我後面五百萬我不用再製錶了您現在改料後就變這樣了他的程序都沒有變跟原條文都沒有變您現在改料後就變這樣了不是 刪掉這個因未建之情形必須追加企業以外之工程等等等所以"},{"start":6712.935,"end":6726.343,"text":"他的這個他的原來就是說你這個機關呢必須追加企業以外為什麼必須追加企業以外就是因為未見之情形嘛所以我現在跟你說你這把這股拿掉"},{"start":6728.713,"end":6741.622,"text":"我剛才說的一千萬發保料我阿伯要再兌加五百萬我不用再照表了這個跟這句話有關啦我直接找原本的衝衝來做就可以了這些程序跟這句話刪除不刪除是無關的那是無關的阿伯檢調可以辦不可以辦就有關還是無關的"},{"start":6747.802,"end":6770.187,"text":"比較無關的 主委你怎麼這樣想呢你真的要把這個條件組結放到零候候所有的審判機關裡面 大家就肆無忌憚了就已經有夠零了 坦白說現在要用財經法去辦這個荷包價就對了 要保修我們的荷包"},{"start":6771.226,"end":6777.629,"text":"坦白說檢調單位就已經攔上家人你現在再這樣他們就摔上家人了他們要怎麼去辦啊再來就是說群眾來控制群眾來控制"},{"start":6785.847,"end":6796.813,"text":"施工現場在這個條件好啦,工廠的設計都算啦,現在是公民眾來控制,你們說這裡就是符合衛能意見之情形,你們裡面有這樣的討論啦,結果你們雞肋,就是說因為有這個情形,所以我們把衛能意見之情形拿掉,我告訴你,你內部的討論是這樣,這樣是不對的,不好啦,主委,你不覺得這樣是有矛盾的嗎?"},{"start":6815.688,"end":6841.04,"text":"我今天要拔雞骨我地方發報我叫人出來控制一下就好了那承辦機關我可以用嗎這不好啊我的意思就是說在要不形成法律議程我提供這個意見是因為有人建議希望修復更嚴謹一點不是說"},{"start":6844.281,"end":6848.103,"text":"這樣做就一定會有問題你這裡沒有問題 下面會有問題大家保留順便空對不對他就在想沒有空間要專家的人就是在想空間結果你把它創造成空間更大空間對不對限制性的招標就是不用公開招標甚至連工格都不用了可以直接找鄉鄉來簽約如果這樣"},{"start":6873.632,"end":6882.256,"text":"這就對鄉鄉很憂慮嘛你現在要把30條改成什麼改成韓傑省的酒瓶不用收阿伯金有這個情形嗎 來來來這是免分的勝利我告訴你 我要給你賺要求最近國防部的採訪就對了你不用啦 免分的啦 我要給你賺你不用金分 不用阿伯金"},{"start":6902.386,"end":6914.556,"text":"這來攤比較大條 不然這樣你會害到老總統變成他起來做總統 手還要手這麼靈活 更加狡猾變成不用拿本 不用金本就可以更加狡猾主委你可能沒注意到 四節有這部分喔我有看到 我昨天晚上還在看"},{"start":6925.24,"end":6945.809,"text":"他是講說勞務採購除了正當禮物外免收押標金保證金等他並不是所有的限制性招標都不能收押標金剛才委員可能有所誤解我請副主委來補充說明這個其實本來原來就換得更寬原來是說溢價的那種情況他得免收嘛"},{"start":6946.249,"end":6956.756,"text":"那為什麼限制性招標現在把他限縮到限制性的招標沒有換款你沒有辦規有影響什麼有什麼要辦規藏二票金就不用如果今天有市議結束股票有二票金這樣對你有什麼風險"},{"start":6971.634,"end":6992.351,"text":"跟我們報告本來就他本來的規定就是溢價方式辦理的採購免收押標金我們沒有放寬我們是把他的免收我來問限制性招標裡面不用公開招標一條三十條的規定限制性招標不用收押標金"},{"start":6993.512,"end":7009.296,"text":"限制性招標得不公告所以他並不是全部不公告這跟有人說明那原條文免收押標金是溢價但是限制性招標除了溢價之外他還有一些評選我把問題說出來"},{"start":7016.806,"end":7044.222,"text":"我是希望阿伯送出來叼文你們要注意一下啦我請教那個副主委啦像我們追求廠商的押標金齁在法律上啊公法上不當得力請求這個這個見解請求的請求的時號是5年嘛對不對一般的公法的請求權來我來看看你們想要給他蓋2年是什麼那2年多大家照料料"},{"start":7044.963,"end":7071.158,"text":"因為我們基本上是因為是從機關他得知或可得而知啦那個一般的工法上請求權他的每一種方法計算的這個起算點不大一樣所以我們基本上是把他統一那我們也不希望說你統一我問你 你看你越拚越硬我們小兄弟就在不良的小兄弟就在退不回來你現在退五年五年就有時候我們就退不回來你總要給他改造兩年"},{"start":7075.396,"end":7086.605,"text":"我也覺得奇怪 你在想什麼若是對政府有保障的我支持你 沒問題這個是指機關你知道了要去追那你知道了一直不追"},{"start":7088.151,"end":7108.259,"text":"這個期間的這個調整嘛所以你不能說你這個你寫的不明確喔你現在是在給我解說你才說你知道了你不追所以兩年沒有喔調文就是這樣啊調文就是這樣說對不對知不知道來知不知道的認定是怎樣我是認為在要限縮"},{"start":7113.888,"end":7117.958,"text":"執行者的權益的時候我拜託你一件這條你再索賀一件"},{"start":7119.264,"end":7141.838,"text":"不然會漏氣啦 真的啦這兩年萬一如果剛好兩年倒不倒就被我不良的小兄帶走我在跟委員說明啦他並不是說兩年沒有追到不能再追我如果兩年內都沒有啟動要跟你追追查那就你不能再主張我告訴你啦就是說我們過去啦34條第三項割標進行必須保密啦"},{"start":7145.72,"end":7151.144,"text":"但是你現在拿出來的修法就是說本來就都喜歡保密為什麼現在有特殊情形什麼叫特殊情形有的要去訪價嘛"},{"start":7167.176,"end":7173.703,"text":"沒有啦 你現在...有的要去訪假我不是不想你去訪假但是本來都要保密的東西你現在給我擺一個特殊情形就可以不用保密了這個東西撈出來 想要算什麼"},{"start":7184.757,"end":7204.214,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說明原則上當然是要保密嘛原則上要保密但是他在每些個案進行的時候有時候他必須去進行比較或者協商那在那種狀況底下他可能就必須要公開啊什麼叫特殊情形公開是公開這項還是公開全部"},{"start":7206.67,"end":7232.303,"text":"那當然是要看他那個個案的性質到底哪些可以公開哪些不能公開我們沒有辦法足以把所有的情況在法條裡面寫清楚那你就變成是說有你們的施行細則在上面那也是一個方法如果說有累積足夠的個案我們可以用施行細則來進一步規劃那現在因為他是沒有那個例外的條款變成講對這條啦副主委"},{"start":7235.221,"end":7259.18,"text":"你們要頂這些私刑細則 希望上這個委員會啦 上來分析一下沒有啦 什麼關鍵 我可以提早給國家負責採訪的人 給你們提供意見啦你們用用的 會夠不要下落 會對自愛難行 夠不要大家開火的事件都必然重生 這裡崩那裡崩好 這個我們再個別跟我們再請教好 謝謝"},{"start":7270.814,"end":7286.186,"text":"好接下來請林俊憲委員諮詢那宣告一下林俊憲委員諮詢完畢之後我們休息10分鐘好感謝主席本行邀請我們工程會陳主委來陳主委請"},{"start":7292.237,"end":7315.171,"text":"委員長主委早主委我今天跟你探討一個很多人都擔心的問題就是我們政府的工不服務我們當然需要人才但是現在欠很多人現在有專業的工程方面的人才他不願意到政府部門來有可能看過這個這兩天你看"},{"start":7318.615,"end":7337.732,"text":"考選部也發現了這個問題所以考試院考選部也提出一個警告你看我們最近各課對於2022年開始土木工程類缺用情形2022年還沒有缺額再來23年欠135個到今年欠240個"},{"start":7345.171,"end":7362.896,"text":"那政府部門如果沒有這些專業的公務人員來執行土木工程的相關業務那這樣當然拼盡我們就有煩惱了人家要先探討是怎麼臨時不可以來當然有幾個原因嘛我們剛才說的我們看過很多啦 接臨時啦還是說他如果靠到技術的這一招"},{"start":7368.837,"end":7378.162,"text":"還是說民間部門有更好的方法可以開一年那他們可能就會選擇民間部門第一個"},{"start":7379.366,"end":7392.019,"text":"考選部的分析 讓你做參考我相信柯慶英這個主流不知道有否給你我們有跟你們討論過兩次我知道 就三個幾個部門嘛考選部 全區部 還有我們工程會大家有來開會說 這問題要怎麼解決有幾種嘛 第一不該來考嘛第二 考到了不該來報名"},{"start":7399.782,"end":7412.662,"text":"這個很嚴重有將近三成 最高三成他入局以後他不來報到課程我就不可以來第三就是他到了以後他做不了多久他就辭職"},{"start":7413.851,"end":7432.804,"text":"他就理解了這三項所以主委你說你開會了這問題要怎麼解決的確是委員剛才指導的的確情形是這樣子的目前持續推動就是希望比較像醫師的不職業"},{"start":7434.385,"end":7461.055,"text":"獎金這一類增加獎金的方式讓具有土木類專才或有技師資格的能夠多一些獎金第一個那第二個甚至在考量考試的方式考試的類科或難易程度你是要幫我比較好考你的意思是考試院有在考量因為怎麼考試是考試院的政策那第三個 他們會尊重你的意見第三個就是說"},{"start":7462.489,"end":7477.405,"text":"土木類科我們分中央跟地方地方又分東部跟西部我們是中央還好中央這個當然沒有這麼嚴重地方就更嚴重了鄉鎮公所比縣市政府更嚴重"},{"start":7479.267,"end":7503.308,"text":"鄉鎮工程他職等很低嘛那東部呢花蓮台東屏東澎湖這些考上的他去那邊就要待下來了幾乎都沒有報到所以我們目前工程會在推那種比較偏遠地區的培訓你要用培訓班對我就是要跟你討論這一題所以我們目前在明年度要在花蓮要跟宜蘭大學合作辦一個學分班那你現在遇到一個問題"},{"start":7505.19,"end":7524.2,"text":"第一個 總預算不通過 國民黨也看一看這個問題剛主委點出一個重點 你一些 譬如說花東的地方 離島的地方 人才不願意去 更嚴重了你像那個江庭林宅 很多人都不想去花東 客廳也不可以報到"},{"start":7525.521,"end":7549.138,"text":"那怎麼辦所以工程會你這個辦法我是支持你他現在去我們辦土木工程學分班學分班跟宜蘭大學合作因為花東那邊沒有土木科系希望可以吸引更多人就是說他至少給他一個在地的人來培訓對現在中午就沒過了我們就你就副分級總召你們來看看這幾位是為你們辦的"},{"start":7551.227,"end":7577.418,"text":"為了發動那個未來推動重大工程的需要你現在總預算沒過這種新的辦理的事項你都沒辦法做了其實鐵道局也有說過鐵道局說他現在最缺人的就是東部分局啦鐵路也一樣啦很多人都不可以去東部啊公路一樣公路公路也一樣鐵道局很嚴重啦他要87個現在到90個欠27個"},{"start":7580.888,"end":7598.59,"text":"所以這個 我舉這個例子就是說 你總算沒過啊其實受害的啊 中央地方都受害了藍綠政黨都受害了 地方政府集中的都公民黨比較多嘛你現在在很多界外其實對地方政府重要 緊急需要的 你現在都沒辦法做"},{"start":7600.031,"end":7626.669,"text":"好了 最後一段時間 我要跟主委 因為時間要跟你討論 植栽公安的問題因為我發現這一點 台灣的植業災害有一點嚴重你看我們的重大植栽傷亡 這是羅東坡統計越來越多人稍微有下降 但是營造業下降速度很慢主委你看 我們營造業"},{"start":7632.113,"end":7652.081,"text":"這個從2014年到20就是最近兩年營造業平均一年都要有150萬重大的每個月都要十幾個人有重大之災的傷亡死亡我講的是死亡大家可能不知道台灣的營造業是很危險的環境"},{"start":7654.898,"end":7683.289,"text":"這裡有一個手裡我看現在一年要死一百五十個一個月要死十幾個這營造業的整個屬於重大職災而且佔了我們全體重大職災的一半一半所以不夠你這個要贏多少台灣人我們都敢做就算是外勞偏多我不知道啦我沒有拿到進一步傷亡人的背景"},{"start":7684.485,"end":7699.453,"text":"但是這麼高的死亡率這死亡人數現在我看是絕對的人數而且它降低的速度很慢最近兩天對於160倍才降到145個那麼這對於職災的防範我們有你檢查工程會應該有你負責因為這幾年我們有一些重大工程譬如說大規模的"},{"start":7714.591,"end":7720.598,"text":"高樓層的 深開化的這都真的有一定的規模性還有危險性"},{"start":7722.301,"end":7745.103,"text":"那麼我希望我們工程會作為公共工程主管機關應該可以如何叫勞動部來協同從管理制度面來熱衷更多自災風險來保護這些工人寶貴的生命也不要讓他們受到傷害尤其是西方的人手"},{"start":7746.434,"end":7759.014,"text":"主辦機關 藥住啦 都是我們公家的 帶電啦 供路局啦 隔鎖供路局啦所以這點是不是要注意 你這裡有什麼看法"},{"start":7760.387,"end":7779.596,"text":"好 謝謝 這個除了勞動部有他的依依他的職責在做集合之外工程會會去集合那另外呢我們在法制面在公務工程的評選那裡面會有關於職災的扣分的一些規定甚至重"},{"start":7780.777,"end":7807.25,"text":"比較重大的會報伊林的條款停權你講到這個剛好就是我要跟你提的我們有一個扣點沒有錯我們的扣點的定義有一個中度比較小嚴重比較多什麼叫中度 什麼叫嚴重根本上沒有這個標準就要三個評審委員自己決定所以我覺得應該要有一個明確的規範它缺失的程度"},{"start":7808.345,"end":7828.603,"text":"第二 這個靠點最令我生氣的就是比如說高差兩公尺以上 你沒有防止墜落的安全設施所以叫做破壞的 嚇死了第二 施工價不穩定 所以你站不起來就破壞了第三 工區內外安全的防護措施不夠"},{"start":7830.14,"end":7849.271,"text":"重複一直發生叫你說你集合好不好你不應該這三點原因不斷地重複出現這是我跟你說的所以我們目前的集合扣點制度絕對有問題否則每次這三項都改不改都永遠排在最前面"},{"start":7850.492,"end":7866.329,"text":"所以我也要這種所謂齊頭式的施工查核我認為要再改變應該先針對高風險的工程加強密度管理我這是看日本怎麼做我可以提供"},{"start":7868.411,"end":7889.216,"text":"注意你做參考日本就有重點監督制度他特別條列出來你只要是這幾種的工程這幾種施工的方法比如說深開化 做高度 高橋墩這個都是極度危險的或者是說你是第一架得標的工程"},{"start":7890.151,"end":7911.024,"text":"他都認為你可能會節省成本安全防護措施的不足所以他有特別表列出你如果是這幾種他會提高他的監督查核的頻率還有標準我們現在是沒有我們現在所有工廠平均的檢查頻率都不足其他主要的問題是從哪裡來第一 什麼檢紀"},{"start":7914.384,"end":7929.094,"text":"檢舉啦 民眾檢舉 媒體報導啦我們都不會有啦 第二有啦 你有說低價得標偏低的啦第三 工程品質欠佳的你說你大概發現的時候都是已經被動式了"},{"start":7930.035,"end":7932.398,"text":"我們希望讓台灣能夠降低我們營造工程的危險性"},{"start":7947.774,"end":7960.873,"text":"我看到的那種數字對我們來講可能就是一個數字但是最重要的就是家破人亡的慘劇你想想一年平均營造的市一百五十幾個一百五千個"},{"start":7963.656,"end":7986.046,"text":"各位都要洗澡幾個 這個我們看了非常痛心 好不好這個我們遵照委員的意見來看必要的相關制度法規或規範來做修正好 感謝主委 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝林俊憲委員 來 謝謝陳輝那我們現在休息十分鐘 十分鐘之後繼續開會"},{"start":8008.809,"end":8011.614,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8035.316,"end":8040.1,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8057.247,"end":8063.609,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8086.605,"end":8092.791,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8106.118,"end":8118.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8121.135,"end":8140.606,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8154.871,"end":8170.276,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8190.693,"end":8195.778,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8207.452,"end":8208.754,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8262.355,"end":8262.375,"text":"好"},{"start":8281.877,"end":8306.234,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8312.705,"end":8340.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8345.213,"end":8351.254,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8373.217,"end":8375.384,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8415.642,"end":8415.702,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8444.525,"end":8471.563,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8473.592,"end":8481.613,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8488.268,"end":8504.77,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8506.049,"end":8534.002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8551.945,"end":8560.187,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8599.816,"end":8601.217,"text":"交通委員會現在繼續開會請接下來質詢魯明哲委員進行發言"},{"start":8617.372,"end":8646.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委請委員長好 陳主委我想今天這個政府採購法政府採購法因為我印象深刻我正好民國87年87年擔任中立市市民代表剛開始從政然後正好是我們那時候採購法上路的那一年"},{"start":8647.06,"end":8670.455,"text":"所以今年我們發覺針對於很多食物上就是這些卡卡的東西我也看到你們都啟動了去修正我也聽到了我們政府採購單位我又訪問一下包括地方政府相關一些部分大家對於整個修法的過程目前看起來方向肯定還是稍微多了多一點當然我們來看一下"},{"start":8671.636,"end":8690.641,"text":"在整個採購法 現金制度 招標的方式公開招標 現值金招標 選擇金招標這基本上分三大類看起來 件數來說現值金招標最多在70% 這個統計但是現值金招標有時候顧問公司它的金額相對有時候不見得那麼大"},{"start":8691.461,"end":8705.89,"text":"稍微比較簡單的那限制營招標佔70%可是真正的金額所以在重大工程很多金額動輒數百億甚至地方政府幾億的一個工程那我們發覺以金額來算"},{"start":8707.071,"end":8723.629,"text":"公開招標還佔55%所以在公開招標的一個制度裡面這一次你們也做了一些調整其中包括了公開招標就第一次招標一定要有三家三家才可以做一個開標"},{"start":8724.83,"end":8751.959,"text":"那其他限制型招標跟選擇型招標雖然限制型招標量那麼大不過因為金額重要的都不在那裡所以很多的重大工程甚至一些急迫性的工程甚至一些明明就只有少數專業的一個廠商才可以做的工程就還是要再等等等等等到後面那等到後面會發生一些滿可怕的事因為重大工程有在交通部裡面很多這種狀況"},{"start":8753.419,"end":8776.158,"text":"一拖再拖拖的時候經費又不夠拖到第三次上網挖發覺這次是真的經費完全不夠然後又開始牽扯找經費整個再來惡性循環所以在整個的一個看你修法的一個主要的一個過程做一個整理第一個就是第一次招標就是不用三家限制一家就可以開標"},{"start":8777.475,"end":8799.892,"text":"那第二個最有利標就也不要上級機關去核准像我們現在鄉鎮市公所 區公所在 我要決定要最有利標公告金額以上的要做最有利標那都要上級機關做核准當然這也是時間的問題啦時間的問題那這是第二個第三個 小額採購當然是公告金額150萬"},{"start":8801.884,"end":8820.195,"text":"現在是十分之一你把十分之一修掉了你說各個地方政府這些中央機關那你們自己因地制宜來規定也就是說可能五十萬甚至一百萬只要一百五十萬以內都可以那第四個你們也加強惡質廠商的處罰的一個機制"},{"start":8824.137,"end":8847.426,"text":"因為我想問一件事就總和來說其實採購法條那麼多但是最大的精神都是希望能夠找到做出來有品質跟有效率的一個公共工程那我覺得在整個的一個目前整個修法的制度你覺得能夠怎麼樣有效落實我覺得品質是滿重要的你來說一下好不好"},{"start":8848.693,"end":8863.751,"text":"第一個就是政府採購法這個修就是說立法之初原立法者就是採取比較防弊的角色而且非常的嚴格的角度來這個立這個法"},{"start":8865.993,"end":8893.89,"text":"那當中當然有修但是沒有大的改變所以我們這次是參著採購機關還有各界的意見那麼做一些適當的修改那麼我們希望透過程序的簡便那麼有一些束縛讓採購機關比較方便但是沒有影響到採購的品質那選出最好的廠商就怎麼選商怎麼做好工程這部分在既有的規範之下那都可以來進行"},{"start":8895.071,"end":8921.24,"text":"那採購的部分我們做了一些修正好 這一次在採購法修正由於第一次招標一家以上那我們一家以上就可以招標我又特別有注意到一個狀況我覺得對於一些重大工程這絕對是一個正面的訊息不過我第一次看到一個修法就是讓我感受到是優質廠商劣質廠商一起放鞭炮 真的"},{"start":8922.741,"end":8943.682,"text":"這兩個極端這個優質廠商他可以節省很多的經費好好做公共工程不要為這個行政採購法拖那麼久那所謂惡質廠商有心的廠商他也很開心他很開心他開心什麼原因呢就是我們從民國39年開始之前的法律營產工程一路到現在就是防弊的機制"},{"start":8944.443,"end":8972.913,"text":"那在早期來說它是要多成本可能如果你要去做一個微標或者去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情你還要花滿多的一個成本在現代雖然網路上但是它相關的一個風險還是非常非常大它成本也非常高為什麼你要找人微標你要不要通訊你要不要記錄你要不要LINE來去相關的很多一個訊息未來如果真的有出問題的時候在我們法務部門它要查證其實"},{"start":8974.413,"end":9000.751,"text":"資料是比較多的如果現在有心人的心還是沒變所謂的惡質廠商他一進來就會說太開心了就是大門開了其實窗戶後面的小門全開了所以我是覺得正面的效益當然多於負面的時候我們還是要做我是認為還是要做但是我覺得有一些防弊的機制我覺得真的還是要特別的一個注意其中第三項"},{"start":9001.812,"end":9028.961,"text":"小兒採購150萬因為現在已經有很多的一個制度我覺得因為已經沒辦法因為你要全國試用可是你要知道有很多的偏鄉有一些的公所他一年的預算2億扣掉人事預算其實這樣沒有多少錢他現在大部分的招標對於像這樣的偏鄉有一些小地方甚至小單位他現在150萬公告金額以下的公告金額以上根本不用外聘委員"},{"start":9030.001,"end":9049.495,"text":"對不對不用外聘委員假設你已經休了一家也可以我就內聘委員五個科長就上了我覺得一點困難都沒有已經都沒有困難了那現在又三家都不必那像這樣的一個情況就是說大的我們要處理交通部一個國家級的建設這個思維我支持"},{"start":9050.336,"end":9066.157,"text":"那可是像這樣的搞不好有些有些機關他一年根本沒有超過150萬的這些的問題的時候他是放得很鬆那我們就只能相信這個人的問題那我覺得這個的部分你們對於這種的風險有沒有什麼雖然"},{"start":9067.438,"end":9081.814,"text":"利多於弊那這個弊的部分就採購法制度你有沒有什麼樣的想法我們有一些配套措施第一個就是機關當預算民意機關審訊之後在一定期間之內他必須公告"},{"start":9082.795,"end":9107.343,"text":"這今年度 比如說採購預算是多少要做什麼事情 相關計畫公告再來就是說 相關的領投標機制我們今天政府採購法有增加那個電子投標除了電子領標之外 電子投標那現在資訊那麼公開所以不至於變成一個資訊鎖壁說機關它為所欲為我只找一個A朋友來就可以了因為其他人都知道這裡有一個案"},{"start":9108.283,"end":9123.913,"text":"所以包括這個開標等標期要展年等等都有一些配套措施好的 現在時代很多的真的不一樣因為在早期的時候十二十年前是真的一堆大小的採購單位一堆人要來標"},{"start":9125.254,"end":9145.929,"text":"現在是一堆人不要來標你也知道就是上網你網多方便我就不要來領到底發生了什麼事從過去的趨之若鶩到現在很多的不騙你很多的近而遠之三個就這四個原因到底預算跟市場有滿多案子是脫節的所以造成了我這個來"},{"start":9147.39,"end":9168.275,"text":"利潤低 法律風險極高法律最少的部分在政府單位跟你行政mini公文我就弄不完了一不小心要跑法院 嚇都嚇死第二個當然最低標的一個制度大家就有一些固定的廠商在那裡他就可以拿到很便宜的或者標到之後他很有辦法"},{"start":9168.795,"end":9196.583,"text":"不知道什麼原因第三 外在的因素這也不用講了有一些可能土地要取得有些因素嘛民眾有意見甚至缺工料前幾天是但是我覺得第四項是很重要的很多人心灰意冷從熱忱到現在不玩了再怎麼跟大家講改制度完它也不來的原因就是供給政府的效率但我不是講你講包括中央地方的一個政府折磨折磨人怎麼折磨呢"},{"start":9197.684,"end":9206.421,"text":"從招標文件的時候當然你現在有一條講說強制性嘛我們政府的招標大家都用同一套嘛不要再加那麼多附屬一個"},{"start":9207.717,"end":9231.967,"text":"附屬的一個卡關卡人的一個點這是一個滿重要的你在招標文件的時候特別你有制式化的現在因為很多的機關他覺得他要再增加很多一個條文那這個部分未來到底要怎麼樣去做會不會減少這方面的問題第二個其實整個從評選一個階段開始人為的一個因素"},{"start":9233.247,"end":9249.702,"text":"這個也發生了很多的問題所以現在產生為什麼優質機關跟惡質機關他們同樣放鞭炮在你這個修法的過程中我覺得一定要特別注意這個訊息因為人的因素太重要"},{"start":9250.402,"end":9267.23,"text":"我們現在碰到很多人心灰意冷走人的我們覺得還不錯的廠商後面很多都是人但我覺得很可惜這些政府的採購人員就我所看到的其實我認為九成五九成五都很優他甚至怕他比廠商還怕他守得很緊"},{"start":9268.371,"end":9282.071,"text":"但是確實這中間也有蠻大一部分這個人的因素人的因素包括我們現在辦公室還有一個陳情還借到一個陳情陳情五千多萬的工程來陳情的陳情的要做什麼"},{"start":9283.717,"end":9309.183,"text":"就跟他跪下來 跪下來我退場好不好 饒了我 退場我不玩了他說跟他說對不起我不知道你的工程有固定的廠商在那邊做我烏魯叢林了 我跟你對不起我可以不要再折磨我了我們注意到這種 所以這個人的問題我覺得是非常非常的重要你知道我現在多少的工程我讓你驗過你就驗過我讓你驗不過"},{"start":9312.619,"end":9341.385,"text":"你就驗不過你驗過了我拖你半年一年我才付錢我馬上給你錢都可以你現在這種人為機制讓很多的優質廠商我就好好做然後可是可能做得比人家好但是也遇到這些問題這個的部分有沒有什麼樣的機制可以去導正這一次我們有關於估驗期要縮短估驗次數要增加讓廠商不用承擔那麼多的"},{"start":9343.246,"end":9358.139,"text":"這個帶電款這個是希望這個機關對廠商的一個改善剛才委員講的沒有錯那委員因為擔任過地方政府的首長所以你知道現在很多比方說尤其地方政府他那個採購人員是非常痛苦的我們這個"},{"start":9362.086,"end":9375.053,"text":"這個小額採購以上然後金額不大但是他要去採購要符合三家以上等等這些程序所以造成很多不必要的沒有效率所以我們這次有做一些修正主要那我最後一個建議"},{"start":9376.354,"end":9391.239,"text":"不用三家一家但是我建議說你們的指導原則因為現在有太多的器官都是用最低的最低的上網那個期間我既然只有一次不是 就第一次基本上有一家就可以我覺得要稍微寬鬆一點"},{"start":9392.879,"end":9409.9,"text":"讓大家在網路上甚至裡面有很多的訊息你要投稿的文件要準備並不是這麼快所以我倒是覺得說在很多機關確實都用最短的那個期限我是希望能夠稍微等標期要長那怎麼長呢我們這裡面"},{"start":9411.381,"end":9437.935,"text":"這次修法就是把契約範本要剛性化所以工程會當政府採購法修法通過之後工程會重新訂定相關的契約範本包括剛才委員所指導的等標期要長要怎麼長那這些我們都會重新訂定拘束採購機關來做這些事情等標期相對相對要稍微長一點因為第一次就可能然後但是驗收沒問題付款真的要規定一下"},{"start":9438.795,"end":9453.102,"text":"那不是說我愛簽不簽在那邊卡在哪裡我覺得這樣很不好最後一個因為今天法務部門員也在這裡現在修很多法案因為都是授權給地方政府我覺得像很多到時候很多機關在看你這個"},{"start":9454.162,"end":9469.635,"text":"小兒採購為什麼某某是縣政府市政府是50萬現在是15萬變成50萬變成他們優先調查的一個機關我跟你講這法律弄完弄了之後公務人員真的他們覺得正面"},{"start":9470.436,"end":9494.967,"text":"但是要他們責任加注他們責任他們才很害怕很害怕所以我們希望你整個的很多的指導指引相關的部分能夠我們工程會來負責的我希望你能夠多負一點責任好不好好 謝謝好 再來請許志傑委員咨詢"},{"start":9511.881,"end":9533.297,"text":"主席大家好 我們還是請主委陳主委請委員長主委辛苦 這個招標真的是一件很兩極化的事情限制三家當然有它的優點 也有它的缺點"},{"start":9534.346,"end":9562.52,"text":"當然我們現在用優點來往這個方向去我想最重要的缺點要怎麼防避剛才盧委員提到了其實我也深有同感就是說我們假設有95%以上的公務員都很好只有一兩%兩三%不好那這個一兩%兩三%主委有沒有思考要怎麼去防避"},{"start":9565.231,"end":9591.445,"text":"這個有相關的法律有相關的法則所以這個少數他要這個從中取巧那三家也一樣有辦法所以主要還是整個所以不管幾家就是說我希望說是不是我們工程會去幫忙思考防弊的部分有沒有辦法多做一些"},{"start":9592.245,"end":9614.461,"text":"我們過去就是房幣太多了所有的採購都考慮在房幣沒有考慮在心力所以政府採購法從87年實施到現在整個基礎還是在房幣的角度來限制採購的彈性因為當年有當年的環境現在有現在的環境彈性我們把它擴大但是房幣也沒有幫我去思考"},{"start":9614.801,"end":9638.825,"text":"防避就是剛才我們有一些配套措施啦機關必須預算通過之後就公告然後呢要說明那等標期要長我們其實比較務實的啦就是剛剛盧委員講的其實我也有遇到類似的case啦所以他以前有固定廠商你就怕不知道下來補啦所以我嚴肅就把你刁難啦那這個我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":9643.757,"end":9663.862,"text":"去看到底他是做得不好還是被刁難我想這個委員也當過市長是的那委員也當很久了一定接受到很多陳情對不可否認的我們目前中央政府在各地的"},{"start":9665.253,"end":9691.009,"text":"派出去各地的分屬這一類的那麼因為手裡掌握很多年度預算應該怎麼處理因為我們時間不多我們比較具體一點要怎麼去防這種弊這個要多集合就是說你這個機關它的主管機關或者是首長那本身就要注意這些事情那如果你一個機關陳情這一類的事情太多經常發生那表示要換人"},{"start":9692.25,"end":9721.229,"text":"那表示要移送調查我是建議就是說我們就是有一些具體的去思考一下比如說我以前當市長的時候我也曾經說這個設計跟施工跟建造到底合在一起比較好還是分開比較好那他如果從設計到施工到建造都是同一個人同一家公司會不會比較"},{"start":9722.062,"end":9732.229,"text":"容易就是自己去主導那把設計跟製造跟監工分開會不會比較好"},{"start":9734.229,"end":9760.572,"text":"我請副主委來跟你回答委員這個大災問那確實在採購食物上面這是兩種不同的思維我們時間不多看那個重點我們講重點看有什麼重點可以處理那針對委員第一個問題就是說怎麼防篤這個承辦人員刁蘭其實他這個行為是違反採購人員的倫理準則只是我們一直以來機關沒有嚴格去執行所以我們前一陣子有用函"},{"start":9761.732,"end":9789.166,"text":"這個通函的話那現在還是有啊現在還 對所以第一個就是說假設進入到我們我講一個比較具體的我們發現我們個案去處理我講一個比較具體的是不是主委跟副主委可以想一下就是說他其實剛盧委員提到有很多很多很多的小案子對不對那每個鄉鎮施工所可能他可以自己做決定嘛對不對那五個也很簡單啊那其實最有利標的好處就是我們大部分在買衣服買房子幹嘛的買車子都是最有利標也沒錯"},{"start":9790.439,"end":9817.851,"text":"但是就是說我們 我原則上是支持最有利標的也支持就是這個三家可以放寬這個我都支持但是我現在在想我們要怎麼樣去避免避免這個弊端比如說我剛剛講 這個很好玩我當市長的時候我就把設計跟建造分開我想說這樣比較沒有問題 對不對結果還是有問題有一家公司專門在包建造的"},{"start":9818.868,"end":9845.139,"text":"到最後我才發現怎麼都是這一家這一家都是刁難前面的所以有很多類似這樣子的問題那我是覺得就是說怎麼樣才是最好就是說我們應該不是針對一個案件而是所有的案件比如說我假設省電燈泡好了我這個區公所做的跟那個區公所做的跟那個鄉公所做的好像類似同樣的東西但是平均價格差很多"},{"start":9847.239,"end":9876.58,"text":"是不是有這個大數法則可以去思考因為你每次只思考一個案件其實真的都很困難誰對誰錯有些是公務員不對有些是廠商不對讓我們被陳情的我們也搞不清楚到底你是刁難還是你品質不好所以我是覺得可能我要提供主委跟副主委就是說我們工程會是不是要做一個不一樣的思考就是說我今天是針對TOTAL的"},{"start":9878.018,"end":9893.734,"text":"不同單位的採購有沒有辦法去做一個類似的相近的比較好 謝謝委員這位意見非常好那我們工程會是有能力取得所有的決標的這個情形"},{"start":9894.475,"end":9919.726,"text":"那我們再來研究透過怎麼樣的一個軟體來找出一些異常找出一些異常或找出一些不合理的地方來作為我們可以對這個機關做一些要求改善或說明這樣子的一個方式反正我一直在想我是想說這個方法不錯你們可以思考可以 這個委員這個意見很好因為這個真的是每一個你個別去針對個別案件"},{"start":9922.347,"end":9946.148,"text":"你搞不清楚啦那另外就是說那個主計跟政風的參與因為那個現在參與度有多少我請這個主管來跟你說明報告委員那個之前委員有請我們要去加強這個那我們修了執法把那個得通知把它改成應通知那成立的比率大概從40%已經增長到53%了謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":9949.981,"end":9972.257,"text":"這個部分我也跟主委跟大家分享其實政風跟主計看起來大家都比較害怕但是為什麼我會提出說當然會增加他們的工作 比較不好意思但是有政風跟主計在就有第三方有他們在的時候坦白講你想要作弊至少他們兩個都看過"},{"start":9975.004,"end":10001.803,"text":"這是一個防備的概念那另外一個也讓公務員更有擔當的概念就是說他們說一個公務員 如果叫檢察官起訴他可能沒有問題 但是被起訴然後呢 一個案子審了五年 八年這個公務員差不多就被叫擔任了不像這個優秀的公務員有些人去隨便檢舉又遇到檢察官 又把他起訴你就很壞了"},{"start":10004.315,"end":10031.713,"text":"像這種東西 為什麼我們其實我認為主計跟政風的加入是保護公務員是保護公務員 就是說你有給兩女朋友在看 給四女朋友在看那你可以讓這個採購大家更公平更符合規定然後也更難作弊然後他們都在因為你如果只是讓市公所 區公所 鄉公所去做坦白講"},{"start":10033.589,"end":10055.177,"text":"有的 我說一巴掌的人不好啦如果這一巴掌裡面剛好有一個鄉長或是一個區長不好他就都固定 這裡就有他的班農嘛我相信那個主委很清楚啦這個班農其實有的是真的不好的啦要怎麼去防備這個班農"},{"start":10058.535,"end":10080.913,"text":"我們除了法制面之外大概也會定時的針對採購機關辦理採購獎詞就是採購人員辦理採購獎詞我是給主委建議獎詞都不是政令宣導我是希望說類似我剛才講的有一個大數法則然後去看不同的公所這些小額採購"},{"start":10082.523,"end":10108.866,"text":"買賣這盒有的是3萬有的是10萬我看才知道這個就可以做一個客觀的比較讓人比較不覺得在這裡這一定有工程介紹才有多少嘛比較可以有機會不會讓他說上下其所你說3萬4萬差1萬有什麼環境因素或者是有什麼考量我不知道但是也許有一點小價差差幾倍那就有問題了"},{"start":10110.151,"end":10125.192,"text":"那我們如果說第一個我是希望說第一個就是這個部分我們工程會做一個思考第二個部分就是剛剛我提到的可能要拜託主席政風辛苦一點其實你們是跟公務員保護的有你們在的大家有沒有跟後輩來"},{"start":10126.952,"end":10154.928,"text":"那第三個我是希望說剛剛講到的時候那個固定廠商有一個另外一個不是固定廠商財美有照進來的標註要去用刁蘭這個第三方坦白講工程會是很辛苦啦我想很多案子我也沒辦法處理我要拜託工程會來處理通常是設計的時候設計得太模糊啦什麼是等級品那個設計得太模糊啦這部分我們再來接近那我的意思就是說大的案子其實大部分會到工程會來"},{"start":10156.311,"end":10164.133,"text":"但是呢小的案子他可能不見得會到工程會來 很多那這些很多是不是工程會再想一個機制怎麼去幫助他們"},{"start":10166.65,"end":10195.171,"text":"這有時候你看不到 很多的啦你從外面看都看不到 到底這件事有作弊這件事沒作弊你真的不是那麼容易看得出來有些是廠商做不好當然我們要要求 這個我都贊成有些是廠商做不好被刁難的那這個在地方如果在全國各鄉鎮市各縣市有很多的時候你說全部都到工程會來其實都很困難的所以搞不好在地上有的人有的工程會不敢到來"},{"start":10197.145,"end":10219.404,"text":"像這個東西是不是地方有機會有這種機制第三方單位或者是仲裁怎麼樣去讓他地方比較少這種問題有的 直轄市他有採購申訴的機制我知道 我是說可以一起想就是說從我們工程會的角度因為直轄市 我說這1%裡面如果剛好是某個縣市長以前南島有一個 你看破400多年"},{"start":10226.059,"end":10252.459,"text":"剛才有一個集中管理局你剛才好不好處理所以我是覺得就是說是不是中央還是有一個這樣子一個整體的思考那針對我剛提到這些問題做一個考量這樣好不好好最後我再小小的要求一下就是我們那個主委有去看過的高雄機場國道7號高鐵延伸這個都主委有親自去拜託主委再給我們關心一下進度讓它如期如質高鐵延伸現在在環評當中"},{"start":10254.734,"end":10278.342,"text":"辦理環評 不是環評審查這可能有點時間對 就是這三項這三項現在都是我們高雄中大建設我知道那希望說主委你都有親自去看過我們也非常的感謝那後續也希望說繼續幫忙給我們鋪序讓這個工程如期如止好好 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員接下來再請陳雪森委員質詢"},{"start":10294.178,"end":10321.285,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請主委陳主委請委員長公務員很難為尤其碰到這個採購法動不動不是衛照文書就是圖利他人馬祖那個地區你曉得公務員沒多少人嘛採購法的問題你去叫公務局局長"},{"start":10323.061,"end":10350.512,"text":"是不是能夠攏會貫通我覺得都有問題那何況相公所啦底下的這些基層的人員所以馬祖這個地方很傷腦筋公務員現在不敢審查審查如果有疏漏主觀如果去批批的不對像柯文哲這樣 柯市長這樣批的不對問題就來了"},{"start":10352.612,"end":10376.243,"text":"當然它那個是大的那麼下面是小的那那個地方缺工缺料主委你有沒有聽說過一個工程標18次標不出去的有沒有聽說過18次的確是標18次標不出去留標18次的確是很多的這一種事情發生在馬祖還有工程沒有人來標你有沒有聽說過沒有人來標為什麼"},{"start":10378.853,"end":10406.814,"text":"馬祖這邊交通不便所以他的材料缺工材料要比較單價比較高他的材料商船把材料運到大的島南甘島北甘島沒有問題連北甘都有問題運到舉光島去問題來了舉光島的材料可能一個小工程100多萬他沒有水泥沒有石頭那你要商船把石頭材料運過去的話對不起"},{"start":10407.964,"end":10436.808,"text":"我船運的油料費30萬你要算給我所以這個成本要怎麼算所以比較像這類的地區或者是山上我們都可以允許這個採購機關寬列預算比較高的單價來做設計最近風景管理處就標了一個就設計了一個案子他用台灣的造價再高一點點沒有人標一次兩次三次"},{"start":10437.581,"end":10465.703,"text":"誰要去飆 誰飆誰死誰倒楣何況像北竿你看我今天跟你列舉北竿我們四大工程延宕工程縣長也很倒楣鄉長也很倒楣鄉親會怪啊說你縣長施政怎麼搞的工程一直延宕一直延宕一直延宕前面碰到疫情的問題後面碰到沙士的問題然後再碰到缺工的問題還有海象"},{"start":10466.926,"end":10496.065,"text":"像我們的大秋橋大秋橋難度非常的高比馬祖大橋的難度我聽他們講水流跟湧非常的急一根柱子打下去以後一個浪來又把它吹倒了甚至那個施工船整個船被打翻了這個成本要去哪裡算問題來了像中山國中的工程標了18次標不出去現在標出去了縣長拜託他來標"},{"start":10498.417,"end":10524.786,"text":"飆了以後又無法施工那你說我們要罰他20%咧還是怎麼樣咧所以現在叫合意解約可能朝這個方向啦可能啦我不能講確定啦那這個責任又怪到縣政府啦你這縣長怎麼幹的所以運氣好運氣不好差很多啊你碰到那種兵力夠的施工人員夠的很快一下把他坐起來"},{"start":10526.923,"end":10555.855,"text":"你看 何況還有經費的問題一般補助款又補助一半剩下一半行政院再給他扣問題就來了你大的縣市的話 他的財政可以稍微挪用彌補小的縣市沒辦法一個蘿蔔一個坑 多少錢就多少錢所以 主委這方面問題請你做個技術指導好不好那地檢署不管你啊你動不動不是這個圖利 就那個衛照文書"},{"start":10557.011,"end":10584.256,"text":"一個工程十幾萬 誰要做啊好 找了一個人來 拜託你做那估價單要三家 要找他太太填一張找他弟弟填一張 填了有三張送去 十幾萬人與人之間啦 不舒服檢舉 未到文書一次兩次三次 這個問題常見的我覺得這個應該出在制度的問題"},{"start":10585.848,"end":10613.678,"text":"主委你在修法的時候能夠幫我們想一想好不好有 所以這個就是這次修法的重點就是過去三家才能開標的規定會取消離島地區的這些採購法的制度你可能要另外想個辦法怎麼樣能夠讓他放寬怎麼樣能夠做不要動不動就圖利他人什麼的公務員不敢看公文 不敢批沒有人敢批公文"},{"start":10615.031,"end":10642.325,"text":"你就跟李前總那種 批個西他敢批如你啊 或是渴啊他不敢批啊是不是 不曉得被誰害啊現場沒有那個意圖 但是也會造成他有問題還有就是這個缺工缺工的問題很嚴重缺工啊移工能不能在馬祖地區當然我不只講馬祖金門 澎湖能夠適度的做一些開放這樣有辦法嗎"},{"start":10643.697,"end":10671.306,"text":"公共工程的個案如果缺工那麼工程會可以協助專案向勞動部來協助申請你專案我這個專案有必要這個專案結束以後下一個專案又來了那每個都要專案來報他是常態他是常規就是現在在發生的事情主委你這回去研究一下好不好另外百分之二十為上限是不是這樣"},{"start":10672.998,"end":10696.427,"text":"他延宕的話20%為上限就是罰款我們罰了他20%這一家罰完以後倒閉了那你要重新招標對不對那延宕的更厲害了這一家已經很勉強的我們拜託他所以變成怎麼呢我們還每天去廟裡燒香拜託他不要罰20%"},{"start":10699.107,"end":10728.077,"text":"他延宕的話對我們會造成更深遠的影響變成我們要去廟裡去拜託你在台灣管理死活你依法依規來你超過規定你超過多少我就罰你百分之二十那百分之二十我不是要他百分之二十的錢百分之二十錢你把他罰完以後問題更多第二家來再罰百分之二十你說的工程要搞到什麼時候合年合月合日"},{"start":10729.215,"end":10754.614,"text":"主委這是我們在馬祖發生的事情對就是料 材料運送成本高嘛那也沒有工所以他在設計的時候本身單價就要設計高一點符合現況那麼這樣才能夠找得到工人廠商物料呢才能夠在他合理的歷任之下完成這個工程這個跟山上"},{"start":10755.515,"end":10782.388,"text":"的工程一樣本身就是很困難嘛所以必須可以提高的在設計階段問題是各部會補助我們的一些東西你增加三分之一可以啊你增加一倍他會給你嗎就像我們的長照可能一個床位在臺北只要五萬塊我們你卻要五十萬我們卻一個床位要一百萬呢衛福部就不會同意我們啊"},{"start":10783.686,"end":10810.564,"text":"所以你在這裡面可能要有一個明確的稍微指導一下好這個我們等修法過了之後那必要的相關的規定來修正或指引或者是函給各機關針對像這一類偏遠地區的補助款你應該就他的困難點補助款的部分應該要著以觀念主委這個看起來我今天的質詢是個小事真的是很大的事情"},{"start":10811.772,"end":10831.673,"text":"一件一件的公務員怕批公文公務員怕審查然後又缺工缺料缺經費問題很多所以現在公僕難為真的公僕難為我想行政院工程會你們在採購法修正的時候"},{"start":10832.782,"end":10853.974,"text":"指導一下好不好那有機會也派一些人員到馬祖去辦一些相關採購法部分的說明好不好能夠做一個訓練這個可以好不好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝接下來再請何新成委員質詢"},{"start":10866.004,"end":10873.176,"text":"好謝謝趙薇我們請主委可以OK要不要喝口水是是是"},{"start":10876.454,"end":10896.203,"text":"委員長這位好我想我今天關心的是我們公共工程的一個安全還有安心的問題一開始我首先先肯定針對公共工程的一個品質那我們工程會有辦一個金職獎那很多人都說這是工程界的奧斯卡獎那也因為我們進入第25屆今年"},{"start":10899.665,"end":10928.761,"text":"我看到報紙媒體是說1月21號要在台北這邊來頒獎那頒獎的目的呢當然是為了提升公共工程品質改善生活環境促進廠商的良性競爭那你有四大獎項那今年度呢我必須要很高興的跟主委跟政委說那我爭取的兩件在台中的那剛好都有獲獎一個呢南台中就是在我的選區台慶4號的十九甲砸到了工程"},{"start":10929.261,"end":10955.945,"text":"那在北台中就是衛生福利部豐原醫院他附設了一個厚禮綜合長照機構那兩個當然一個是所謂的橋樑閘道土木工程一個是一個長照的一個建築機構那都是我們公共工程的金職獎而在這個興建的過程裡面那我也很高興這個第一個工程一切順利然後所有的工程"},{"start":10957.445,"end":10974.713,"text":"範圍內都平安我們從業人員也都安全接下來包括這個衛生福利部等一下 衛生福利部的這個在上一頁 上一頁 上一頁衛生福利部在台中後里"},{"start":10976.113,"end":10999.733,"text":"接著還有一個所謂的鼠立醫院的一個後裏分院那我也期許可以盡快的來進行完工也能夠可以獲得再申請這個金職獎我要講這一些是說我們重大的公共工程能夠去爭取我們公共工程委員會的這個奧斯卡獎金職獎事實上每年都有但是不多那這個"},{"start":11001.515,"end":11015.267,"text":"獲獎的過程包括審查的過程也好像層層關卡要一關闖過一關也不容易但是我最終還是希望所有的獲獎回到它最終的是一個品質"},{"start":11017.79,"end":11031.59,"text":"專業還有它真正對我們國人民眾生活造成的一個好的一個環境好的一個工程是樂利民生的這個我想政委應該同意吧"},{"start":11032.891,"end":11048.198,"text":"除了工程的相關的專業人員跟從業人員的安全平安很重要金子獎就是他有比較長的查核期經過出評跟附評全部都是外部的委員"},{"start":11049.458,"end":11073.198,"text":"沒有工程會本身的人員參與全部都是外部的委員所以這個專業性跟他獲獎的公正性是值得肯定的尤其是在最後賦品的時候主審的委員還要能夠舉出理由說服其他的賦品委員說為什麼是這一家得優良不是那一家所以整個是一關又一關是沒有錯那我相信這兩個工程應該實至名歸"},{"start":11075.14,"end":11104.38,"text":"是 那我只是一個建議我們既然已經是第25屆了那表示我們歷年來獲獎的公共工程無數那獲獎的公共工程我們有沒有把它集結成一個可以讓國人清楚了解這個金子獎的意義跟它的重要性的一個平台我覺得這個是第一個讓國人對公共工程的品質還有對這個獎項的一個政府的信心"},{"start":11105.34,"end":11128.493,"text":"信任他才可以安心這是第一個我給的建議這個我不知道有沒有做如果有會後可不可以給我一個報告好不好我為什麼會談到這個呢國人對於公共工程的一個要求跟信心信任才牽涉到國人使用公共工程裡面的安全性還有它的方便性舒適性等等"},{"start":11129.293,"end":11158.253,"text":"任何的公共工程都是要有利於民眾的生活那平安最重要所以我接下來就要跟你講我們這個工程有金子獎那公安的部分因為我剛剛看到其他委員也要再談到這個公共工程公安問題台中市最近發生了兩件事一個叫北區的中央市場的改建工程鷹架倒塌一人受傷一個是我們台中榮總的工地鷹架也是倒塌"},{"start":11159.553,"end":11185.569,"text":"雖然沒有造成人員傷亡但是呢每一件只要見報見新聞之後大家都會對公共工程的這個公安的問題到底有沒有做好那主委 政委你可不可以跟我講說這公安的問題呢是這個勞動部的問題是他的職責跟我公共工程委會可能沒有相關但是政委我要跟你講有相關相關在哪裡呢下一頁"},{"start":11186.738,"end":11215.167,"text":"我們去年12月2號三讀通過了治安法修法要保障公安我們舉雙手贊成也一定要做而且這一次是大修那這一次大修的修法重點呢在於其中一個強化營造工程的源頭防災還有呢預防公安強化營造工程的源頭防災公安的問題那這兩件事情公共工程委員會可以做什麼"},{"start":11216.047,"end":11231.246,"text":"主委我不知道你有沒有去看過治安法的修法內容你有沒有看過要不要看過我不知道公共工程委員會的各位團隊有沒有人看過我建議去看一下好不好因為這會牽涉到公共工程裡面的一些細節"},{"start":11232.828,"end":11255.676,"text":"修法之後呢要求工程業主將營造工程交付規劃設計跟施工時應該依工程特性分析潛在危害還要什麼編制安全衛生圖說還要什麼規範還要什麼還有預算然後還要使施工者採取可以採取預防的作為"},{"start":11256.856,"end":11267.285,"text":"這個看起來好像跟你們沒有關係但是實質上如果你去探討一下你們公共工程在執行面務實面甚至層層的分包之後"},{"start":11269.281,"end":11295.613,"text":"我要說什麼叫做分析潛在危害什麼叫做編制安全衛生圖說這個東西我們公共工程委員會要不要跟勞動部進一步跨部會來協商一下什麼樣的一個標準什麼樣的一個門檻什麼樣的一個制式的範本圖說是可以讓大家有所依循的"},{"start":11295.973,"end":11319.552,"text":"好 這個委員的意見非常好因為最近我們剛好有同仁去日本去他們實際上的大營造廠商演習回來日本的公共工程它那個施工圖說是很詳細的很具體的不是只有書面的設計要求而已它是一張一張的圖說那你施工者 廠商你就一定要按照這個圖說比方說這裡畫 比方說"},{"start":11322.915,"end":11349.273,"text":"多少個鷹架多少個防護網等等非常清楚這個我們正是要學習的方法那我們希望說政府採購法通過之後我們這次強調說我們那個7月換本希望剛性化將來的施工規範能夠強制那我們會參著先進國家比方說哪些國家這種施工最安全最重視我們看過大概就日本 德國"},{"start":11350.874,"end":11361.542,"text":"這個我親身見你到日本看它有一個路口一個施工是很多人在做比方說指揮車輛什麼很多人而且很忙盡忙碌的在做當然成本高"},{"start":11362.904,"end":11382.203,"text":"我也看過其他有非洲國家一個工程可能幾個人在做旁邊圍了一堆人在看所以這個文化是不同的那當然是制度我們有改進跟精進的地方讓我們同意委員的要求那我們進一步修法之後能夠來學習相關的國家的施工的"},{"start":11383.344,"end":11401.73,"text":"規範或設計施工的圖說你每一個不管是大包分包次分包都有這個圖說都有這個SOP拿去施工從制度面來減少這個職安或者是這些職安公安的發生那另外就是招標"},{"start":11402.97,"end":11417.023,"text":"的時候我們希望說你如果這些都做到了沒有一些過去沒有一些勞安職安的問題那我們可能你的分數會有加分的地方那你如果這個有這個職安相關的"},{"start":11419.986,"end":11438.343,"text":"公安的問題的話就算你以前得到金職獎是會取消金職獎的而且你根本沒辦法進入連報名金職獎第一關就淘汰掉了所以這個要請業者來注意但是因為它層層分包或者是不見得每個施工廠商都會那麼"},{"start":11439.344,"end":11456.818,"text":"那麼乖 我就是要提醒政委原則性我同意政委剛剛所講的我們要學習人家好的地方安全的一個公安的要求包括在工程特性的分析 圖說還有規範等等都要細緻化但是第一個"},{"start":11458.383,"end":11473.897,"text":"業界有沒有這樣子的專業人士做得到做不到這第一個人的問題要先幫忙想誰可以來做這些事情第二個我們的要求的這些層層的要求裡面在我們現在食物面"},{"start":11475.218,"end":11489.154,"text":"營造商大小包商參差不齊規模大小又差異很大那我們又要怎麼樣的分級分類的來要求第三個剛剛你講到分包我們現在呢"},{"start":11489.915,"end":11517.076,"text":"公共工程裡面呢在這個職安法的修法裡面也有要求工程業主若將工程分包給多個施工者施工者應指定其中一個施工者來負整體工程安全衛生統合管理責任這個呢文字是這樣條文文字是這樣寫實際上到底是如何運作跟指定這個都事關公共工程委員會要怎麼樣的讓所有"},{"start":11519.558,"end":11539.015,"text":"參與負責公共工程的推動 發包 興建到完工 驗收等等這每每各各很多細節都需要公共工程委員會可能要想清楚因為你的執行面要能夠執行就必須把這些細節下一個 具體"},{"start":11542.618,"end":11559.467,"text":"具體明確你跟勞動部各司其職這樣子才能夠真正的確保公安也才能夠做得到啦不然我們訂了一些執法規如果是業界做不到的也沒用啦那反而是反其道而行"},{"start":11560.839,"end":11587.535,"text":"沒了我們這樣子的一個美意啦所以我現在是提醒政委我也希望公共工程委員會的團隊職安法修法了請詳細去看相關的細節那怎麼樣的我們公共工程委員會可以做什麼讓他這個職安法真正的能夠在實務面能夠落實在公共工程裡面在公共建設裡面可以真正的落實職安公安好不好好謝謝政委謝謝"},{"start":11591.325,"end":11607.244,"text":"好 謝謝接下來再請徐富奎委員質詢謝主席 邀請我們陳柱惟陳柱惟請"},{"start":11615.266,"end":11644.148,"text":"委員長主委好 主委我們現在邁入2026年那我想這個新的年度當然我們期待新年新年要有新的氣象但是因為我們今年的總預算到目前為止都還沒有審議那我想這個對於屏東的發展我們真的是憂心忡忡那尤其主委過去也很關心屏東的許多的一些重要的一些交通建設還有一些產業發展的一個問題那我想主委面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":11645.329,"end":11669.839,"text":"那當然我們依目前預算法第54條的規定我們原本的一些預算的資金上面能夠照比較去年的一個規模但是很多的新興計畫完全沒辦法推動那像是我們屏東的微小南溫還有高屏二塊這些都攸關屏東重要的交通發展跟觀光的一個發展那主委面對這樣的困境 主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":11672.771,"end":11674.554,"text":"北回之巔是新興計畫高頻二塊"},{"start":11679.441,"end":11708.262,"text":"應該核定了吧對 但是預算都綁在今年的預算裡面好 那因為相關規定是這樣 如果新興計畫當然按照預算法規定是我們行政計畫是不能執行但一個例外如果是立法院同意的話立法院同意的話是可以執行所以如果說雖然115年度總預算還沒有審查完畢那但是新興計畫如果立法院同意那麼執行還是可以執行"},{"start":11709.481,"end":11712.813,"text":"主委 那依目前這樣的政治氛圍你認為這個國民黨跟民眾黨會放行嗎"},{"start":11716.578,"end":11741.521,"text":"不過就是總預算我們幾乎沒有很少說有整個年度115年結束了預算還沒有審查還沒有覆違的你以前這麼多年來所以我認為115年的總預算總是要解決的總是要解決的這個解決就是說到底要怎麼編列那麼是不是總預算先覆為審查"},{"start":11742.802,"end":11753.855,"text":"那副委審查再來討論哪些預算要調整那這個才是我們行政機關也希望大院能夠來支持的"},{"start":11755.038,"end":11772.952,"text":"主委我想最重要的一個邏輯這個建設不分藍綠尤其這個預算卡關之後會影響到我們整個這個交通也好治水也好甚至很多社會福利社會住宅的一些公共設施那這部分我想對於百姓都是切身之痛那請教主委"},{"start":11773.792,"end":11789.569,"text":"我們目前 我們工程會有沒有統計 針對我們的新建工程 公共工程有多少案件會因為這樣的總預算沒有通過 造成影響 甚至這個未來有可能會面臨這個 要再追加金額的一些狀況 我們有沒有做這樣的一個分析統計"},{"start":11790.45,"end":11810.691,"text":"比較具體的就是有一個新興計畫是編載經濟部四年一千萬那是補助地方政府就地方管河川的治水計畫四年一千億四年一千億這個完全是要補助地方的那這個新興計畫如果沒有執行的話我們馬上會遇到困難就是說有的縣市政府他的治水"},{"start":11811.812,"end":11826.861,"text":"他這個已經排隊在這邊要等著要補助的啦那麼有的已經可能是前年度已經就是說有些計畫他有相關預算但不夠的部分是希望透過這個4年1000億的錢啦"},{"start":11831.617,"end":11853.593,"text":"來補助那現在這些錢都沒有沒辦法用所以有可能有些預算已經執行到一半了有些計畫已經執行到一半了就是本來打算用這個錢來協助的那就變成沒辦法動那整體來講影響各縣市政府的縣管河川縣市管河川的治水是影響非常大"},{"start":11855.638,"end":11880.044,"text":"主委剛剛講到重點 我想過去這個尤其我們這個屏東也好 過去我們都很重視這個治水的一個問題所以不管是過去的八年八百億 六零六百億我們主委剛剛講的 我們有很多的分期 第二期 第三期 第四期的計畫都已經在進行當中尤其我們聯名訓期 五月份訓期就來臨了我們都很擔心 這樣一個政治的一個惡鬥會造成我們這個百姓的一個災難"},{"start":11881.344,"end":11896.266,"text":"所以我們還是這邊呼籲我們今年度的總預算要趕快來審議那切入今天的主題 剛剛大家都在討論這個你們的採購法的修正草案那當然我們這次總共的增修訂的增刪的部分大概有52個條文"},{"start":11897.648,"end":11921.983,"text":"那最重要的就是刪除首次公開招標要有三家投標的一個限制未來只要一家就可以決標那當然這個就會有正反兩面的一個論調那主委面對這樣的狀況你們有沒有相關的一個防備措施能不能再說明一下已經在預告 那麼修法之前也徵詢各各工協會或各地方政府的意見"},{"start":11923.619,"end":11945.661,"text":"贊成的也有那不贊成的也有那如果以我這樣來了解贊成的居多啦贊成的居多比方說地方政府採購人員或者是比較小的營造商那麼贊成的居多那反對的也有反對的比較偏那個大型的企業啦那總是我們會做參考那麼將來"},{"start":11947.222,"end":11961.967,"text":"那透過行政院這個審議之後會報大院來一併審查那當然我們有些配套措施這個配套措施就是每一個機關那預算通過之後要限期就要來公告那對外來說明那"},{"start":11964.608,"end":11986.423,"text":"等標期也要拉長那麼相關的評選等等都有配套措施那主要是說這個87年通過的採購法沿用以前幾十年前的這個規定那以防弊為主那這裡面呢這個資訊的透明化跟通路已經"},{"start":11987.498,"end":12005.227,"text":"差太多了我們現在是115年所有的政府採購都在電子採購網上面都公告了領標都不用本人去領投標也都不用公司派人去投標那公告的方式也都很清楚資訊這麼流通所以雖然我們把"},{"start":12006.267,"end":12022.307,"text":"三家才能夠開標改成一家但是這樣反而有助於這個更熱烈的參與我是判斷真正一家決標的情形不一定會增加反而會減少"},{"start":12025.626,"end":12045.154,"text":"主委 那我看以我們釣魚的資料 當然我們比較擔心是過去公共工程這個流標狀況非常的嚴重那像我們中央部門來講 勞動部 國防部這個都高達兩三成 還有經濟部那我想這部分我們未來當然是期待這樣一個修法之後 能夠能讓我們的這個投標或是這個"},{"start":12046.754,"end":12064.883,"text":"招標的部分能夠更順利但是當然我們也是要求未來的公共工程的品質的堅固的部分應該要強化那我想去年我也特別有請教這個主委有關於這個土質廠的問題那果不然這兩三個月真的狀況非常的嚴重包含我們這個"},{"start":12065.971,"end":12083.079,"text":"去年諮詢的時候 土方的處理價格從3 4倍的起漲到最近已經調漲到 甚至到高達15倍很恐怖的 主委 那面對這個困境 主委這邊有沒有什麼樣的進一步的一個處理的一個機制"},{"start":12084.982,"end":12101.036,"text":"當然土石方的管制是屬內政部的業務當然也是我政委的部分督導的那這裡牽涉到土地的分區使用的許可包括農業用地或山坡地等等那也包括這個"},{"start":12102.897,"end":12121.868,"text":"建造的申請等等是要跨部會的協商那我們最近也在討論我們希望整合各部會那麼來整理出一套有效去化的方法那麼不至於亂到但是要實務比較務實的來解決這個問題但畢竟這個是"},{"start":12126.21,"end":12152.127,"text":"銀件土石方他並不是比方說化工廠的廢棄物也不是硫酸什麼這些酸液的廢棄物那這些土石方事實上可以再利用的那到底用什麼方法來解決我想我們會整合各部位提出一個比較務實的方法那當然啦也需要各部位不要本位主義然後把這個問題就沒辦法解決"},{"start":12154.195,"end":12176.652,"text":"主委我想這個真的要列入一個很重要的一個課題尤其我們目前也接到很多的澄清案件包含很多的這個公共工程飆步出去因為就是這個土方去化的問題但是這裡面我們呼籲這些業者 清印業者或者是處理業者那麼也不要這個隨便這個抵制拉抬"},{"start":12178.104,"end":12197.501,"text":"當然當然但是我們現在發現就是說上有政策下有對策有的就不給你賺公房也不給你賺有地方賺的地方都不給你賺另外就是說像這個建造的申請實照審查還有土方的區域基本上屬於地方政府應該負起的責任你每一個縣市政府"},{"start":12198.041,"end":12216.803,"text":"你至少要公辦的土質廠那有公辦的戰事廠公辦的企劃計畫每個縣市政府都要這樣處理那至於內政部他大概是管一個政策所以縣市政府才是重要的縣市政府你不能說你沒有設置土質廠這些土資 土石都亂到沒辦法"},{"start":12217.304,"end":12244.36,"text":"然後來怪中央政府說政策太嚴苛或政策是有問題基本上我們回到地方自治事項地方政府的首長他本身就要建置地方這些土石方廢棄物的處理的計畫跟處理的政策我想這個才是正辦好所以我們還是期待趕快這個找出對策趕快來處理啦好謝謝好好謝謝再請李坤哲召委繼續"},{"start":12252.646,"end":12279.144,"text":"謝謝召委請一下陳主委陳主委請委員長主委好有關於公共採購他的流標清洗是非常的嚴重那如果是單單以公共工程的部分來說我們看到新北市環狀線環東段就已經流標了五次"},{"start":12279.864,"end":12302.21,"text":"而且我們看到國道一號甲線它的新建工程也流標了4次如果我們以歷年的流標的總建數跟總金額來看其實情形也是非常的嚴重那對國家整體的進步發展其實是衝擊它應該有的基礎那我們看到2023年449件金額達到1512億"},{"start":12307.771,"end":12334.035,"text":"那2025年1月到11月因為這種巨額採購減少只有這個流標金額是只有170而已但是它的件數卻是達到483件主委你簡單說明一下你認為這些流標的主要原因是什麼其中我們剛才有說明的就是因為第一次開標未滿三家佔了七成"},{"start":12336.249,"end":12361.766,"text":"這是一個原因那其他的呢其他的當然包括設計或預算那麼供期等等那以致沒有人要去投標也是原因主委剛才也提到相關的這個未打三家的這樣一個狀況其實它部分的原因是來自於國際原物料跟人力成本持續的增加"},{"start":12362.846,"end":12389.74,"text":"導致這種價金不符的狀況所以廠商的投標意願也低這也是一個不爭的事實另外這種國際原物料的價格波動也過大造成我們的調整機制因應不及這也是投標意願低落的一個原因另外就是原物料跟人力的缺乏造成這種已經是一個整體性的問題了"},{"start":12391.35,"end":12408.458,"text":"這都是流標的一個原因那我們針對這樣的一個流標的狀況我們是不是針對這種流標過或者是有巨大金額一定金額以上或者是有這種重要的"},{"start":12409.446,"end":12432.254,"text":"需求的這種採購或者是公共工程我們是不是會事先跟廠商大家來開一個公開的會議來了解相關的狀況來進行以後的這種招標是否比較能夠順利的推動採購跟公共工程有一定金額以上的採購本來就要對外說明然後呢"},{"start":12434.006,"end":12449.364,"text":"這個設計機關他還沒去巡駕那通常我了解現在機關通常在預算裡面就會編物條的金額在裡面了就是說我這個工程我多少錢其中項目已經有預留大概將來物條要留多少"},{"start":12451.202,"end":12475.753,"text":"已經在那邊等著物調了工程會現在是有一些基本的因應的做法但是我認為還是要更積極因為我們看到流標的件數跟金額實在是我們對於國家未來整體的發展也深深的擔憂另外我們對於工程品質的缺失當然我們目前是採取祭典的一個機制"},{"start":12476.733,"end":12499.414,"text":"那本次工程會也預計有提出採購法101跟103條的這種修法那就針對違規的業者禁止投標的限制那但是公共工程的安全並不是在於違法的之後的一些禁止更重要的是事前的預防"},{"start":12500.675,"end":12519.576,"text":"如果說尤其是事前有發生問題但是卻屢屢沒有做一個完整改善的業者也應該給予相關的規範來督促他進行改善才能避免這種事故的一再的發生那公共工程的這種"},{"start":12521.266,"end":12543.902,"text":"缺失的祭典機制我們來看歷年扣點的案件數以及該年度扣點案件的超過三件的一個業者這個主委你就來做一個參考另外我們扣點案件的這種平均扣點數也是逐年的增加2019年的時候是1.78點那2024年已經升到2.34點"},{"start":12550.37,"end":12569.237,"text":"那主委我們必須要來探討工程品質差和缺失它有扣點的這種懲罰性的違約金那以工程類來說它主要分成四個級距這四個級距主委也非常的清楚那我們現在要面對的問題就是說"},{"start":12570.526,"end":12596.221,"text":"工程會有做統計平均每個被查核到的違規案件中被扣點大概2至3分 整體大概是2.34分的一個平均那被查到可能造成職安風險的這樣缺失的比例因為查核率大概是10%這還是過去我要求至少要10%以上主委這個10%會不會太少還是會再做調整"},{"start":12599.242,"end":12614.986,"text":"跟委員報告我們也思考這些關於治安的問題那我們有另外一個思考是希望在施工設計階段就把這些問題能夠納入我們希望說將來這個施工的團隊"},{"start":12618.467,"end":12643.91,"text":"那麼有比較詳細的施工途說就是人力規劃或者是一些必要的安全措施都能夠納入甚至整個施工的標準程序這些工程會都希望透過相關企業範本或施工規範來拘束採購端政府機關能夠在他的企業範本或者是施工的時候就對廠商做要求"},{"start":12644.571,"end":12664.853,"text":"那從這部分來源頭來防渡這些公安的問題不只是從這些制度來處理相關的防範公安的問題主委我們現在更進一步來討論這種工程品質缺失的祭典機制就是說一整年下來依照金額的不同"},{"start":12665.774,"end":12682.53,"text":"那有缺失的大概是會被罰三千到兩萬四千元不等的這些罰款那以最高兩億元的工程目前是罰兩萬四千元主委認為這樣的金額兩億元的這樣的一個工程確實罰到"},{"start":12689.423,"end":12695.752,"text":"兩萬四千元你認為這樣的機制有辦法去促進公共工程的安全改善嗎我請那個處長來來處長說明一下"},{"start":12700.975,"end":12723.951,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢那大金的罰的點數跟金額當然目前看起來是比較少那當然這個我們可以來研議看看要罰多少錢可以達到一些警示或嚇阻的一個方式我們的祭典制度跟這種罰款在內的管理機制"},{"start":12724.972,"end":12748.825,"text":"有沒有什麼可以改善你認為必須來做一個檢討你認為要做怎樣的檢討跟調整基本上對比較高風險像防墜落的這些我們當然目前查的是加重扣點那金額部分當然是依照企業來罰錢那企業金額的部分我們可以來研擬辦理以上"},{"start":12749.961,"end":12766.799,"text":"我是建議罰款金額的基礎必須要來做調整就是說每一點的懲罰性的違約金除了採購金額的急劇的調整這個基礎之外也要依照過往廠商違規的紀錄來建立一個調整的機制"},{"start":12770.802,"end":12780.377,"text":"另外就是懲罰性違約金依照該年度的違規狀況我們要來建立累進的機制來 主委你說明一下"},{"start":12781.71,"end":12805.688,"text":"我想這個主要是讓這個比較不好的廠商他經常違規或者是有公安問題的讓他更困難進入公共工程的市場那如果好的廠商重視的讓他比較容易得標公共工程所以這裡面的關於評選的方式或者是加分減分的方式那讓"},{"start":12807.116,"end":12827.804,"text":"投身公共工程的廠商他能夠自己有個考量他有缺失但是他做一個完整的改善罰這些錢他不在意的就是你的這個金額過少但是2億你如果罰了1000已經很高了但是不可能罰到那麼多"},{"start":12830.54,"end":12852.506,"text":"他的罰款不高所以他沒有 他不在意這些是在意了他以後永續能不能繼續在公共工程裡面生存或者是他能不能出場要做說明 做補充我來補充就是說我們目前這個查核它是一個基本的花線缺失所以給他划多少錢基本上回到合約或者是行政法"},{"start":12853.246,"end":12873.515,"text":"他這個缺失回到合約如果說他有造成其他損害的話並不是說只能划這個還是可以划他造成的損害啦所以他重點是回到合約那當然基本的這一個划的這個點數啊我們是可以來這個再重新來研議看看能不能提高重新的研議跟檢討 主委因為時間的關係啊我必須說我們針對"},{"start":12877.136,"end":12902.425,"text":"公共採購及公共工程流標的這種情形的嚴重的確是對國家整體的發展跟進步造成衝擊這個必須請主委提出更有效的一個政策那相關的這種違規的缺失祭典的制度也必須來做檢討讓整個公共工程的品質能夠具體的一個保障以上好好謝謝"},{"start":12908.963,"end":12920.502,"text":"來 接下來再請邱若驊委員辭選謝謝主席 主席請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":12927.645,"end":12954.265,"text":"好委員長主委好 主委那政府採購法的核心效率還有防弊嘛那說白一點主要就是兩件事嘛一個就是希望事情可以做得更快一點那另外一個就是就是事情不要出事也就是防弊那效率很重要這一點我完全同意那今天我們要請教主委一個更現實還有關鍵的問題喔那我們現在這樣改是不是把更快然後放在出事怎麼辦的前面請主委說明"},{"start":12954.745,"end":12979.277,"text":"我小朋友就是三家改為一家是基於客觀事實的改變現在的網路現在的通訊現在的一些通路跟六十年前七十年前完全不一樣了因為時代已經過去了這個是就是資訊的公開跟以前完全不一樣以前在你要領標你要當事人去縣政府領標我還是要提"},{"start":12980.078,"end":12988.789,"text":"那現在我們可以看到連小油採購都會出問題那也包括高機密的標案那也有被動手腳的情況下我們真的準備好要把這個競爭的門檻再往下放了嗎"},{"start":12989.298,"end":13015.233,"text":"我們如果不往前走就永遠在地踏步而且不是在地踏步是60年前的方法我們先來談這個市場的改動那這一次工業總會的潘理事長他也公開提醒如果取消三家的限制那他擔心的不是效率的問題而是劣幣組良幣那原因很簡單嘛他們的看法是那現在制度至少還有一個底線那不管怎麼樣還是有三家來做比較嘛那如果修法通過一個廠"},{"start":13016.374,"end":13042.725,"text":"一家廠商就可以來投標就可以公開招票決標那主委您認為市場怎麼解讀這樣這件事但是我也聽到很多採購機關都贊成我們的改我們的修改尤其是縣市政府基層的採購機關贊成的居多數那另外一方面是不是有一個訊號就表示那現在就算他算準沒有人來那就是直接就有一個就有這個機會拿到標案算準沒有人來就有機會調整預算"},{"start":13044.406,"end":13054.548,"text":"是 那主委你認為這樣對誰最有吸引力如果說算準了沒有多少人來等著機關調整預算調整這個經費這個也是一個弊端"},{"start":13055.205,"end":13081.428,"text":"那主委你認為這樣調整之後我必須跟委員報告這個會增加政府的預算支出非常多因為你時間延了之後重新發包重新 比方說計畫修正又來個物調 所以增加很多所以我們認為說我們就會聽各界的意見做適當的修正當然是也要大院委員都能夠認同才有可能修正那工程會你們有沒有去做評估說會吸引什麼樣的廠商"},{"start":13083.959,"end":13104.566,"text":"在做調整之後會不會就是反而變成吸引就是最趕最趕賭然後成本最低然後也最趕就是把這個風險轉嫁最快這種廠商他很少有機會一家去投標吧如果是一個工程能夠有意義做有獲利很多廠商都會去投所以您認為很多廠商都會去投因為他不會說不知道而不去投"},{"start":13105.126,"end":13132.126,"text":"是他一定知道所以不是過去說這個微標那我就直接問那您認為是有助於提升競爭力嗎當然有助於提升這個各方面的效率或者是決標找到好的廠商這個都是正面的而且我們參考的那主委這樣聽起來還是肯定的那你們有沒有具體還有清楚可以操作的嚴格審查的機制呢就是我們有一些配套措施啦"},{"start":13132.566,"end":13147.022,"text":"配套做事是要求呢這個預算通過之後就要對外說明嘛要公告嘛這是什麼樣的配套做事就是因為你們也有提到嘛因為現在歐美他們就是他們一直都是一家"},{"start":13147.743,"end":13170.017,"text":"對 就是一些採購協定也沒有這樣的規定那這個是完全是六七十六七十年前的規定主委你有談到這已經六七十年然後也有提到因為這是根據WTO就是世界貿易組織對 採購協定是沒有這樣的那我也看到美國的制度那他們現在的單一家的投標是高風險不是常態"},{"start":13170.837,"end":13197.879,"text":"那他單一投票他不是放寬他要特別的標記說有例外的狀況那機關也必須要書面說明為什麼只有一家那我們接下來會不會也要要求說也要有書面的說明必須要有市場調查的結果也要說明有沒有替代方案那包括那這些是文件嘛這些是說明嘛那他們也必須要出示文件那他們文件要包括說為什麼沒有辦法競爭那價格合不合理那風險如何被管控我們接下來會這樣子具體要求嗎"},{"start":13200.184,"end":13226.762,"text":"這個採購法裡面都有啦風險的評估等等那我們的採購方式包括低價標包括有這個有最有利標或者是限制性招標等等各種各種招標決標的方式都不一樣所以會被誤解說我們只是找特定的一家來就決給他不是啊每個標都要公開的啊公開的我沒有限制只能一家來是每個人都來"},{"start":13227.703,"end":13246.947,"text":"每個人都來存在誤解是為什麼因為近年來發生的事情大家也都很清楚像是有人利用小額的採購動手腳也有人把高機密的標案規格洩露出去那這些問題不是因為制度太嚴而是缺乏競爭然後還有外部的制衡所以制度特別容易被操作那我們要怎麼去達到這個外部的制衡呢"},{"start":13247.387,"end":13265.644,"text":"弊端當然跟機關有關跟採購機關有關所以我們這個採購法的修正是兼顧效率跟兼顧採購人員他的實務經驗所以我們認為說一直批評說一家好像要圖利誰一樣這是完全是一個錯誤的解讀"},{"start":13267.706,"end":13284.009,"text":"現在是沒有在批評誰只是我想向主委了解那現行制度下競爭門檻其實還沒有真正的降低那內控就已經管得那麼吃力那修法之後單一的單一家就可以決標那接下來我們內部控管能不能夠承受一定是符合資格的"},{"start":13284.269,"end":13305.489,"text":"是符合資格那在美國那他們有獨立檢查然後國會的委員也可以及時調閱資料那我們接下來也同樣可以做到監辦監督機關這個採購機關上級就可以監督他工程會是主管機關隨時可以去了解可以查核所以主計政風也可以會同來開標所以我們的機制是很嚴格"},{"start":13305.649,"end":13318.279,"text":"所以我們是可以做到像英國這樣子嗎他事後也要公告然後公開使用例外就是有例外的原因然後像包括最您提到就是國內外的就是國內的審查機關然後還有法院可以來做追究嗎"},{"start":13319.753,"end":13344.063,"text":"法院我是說他有一個審核的機制嗎因為他們也特別要求在單就是只有一個只有一個的情況之下他們都必須要出示文件也必須要有說明報告那當然就是如果說整個這個經公開招標之後就一家來那這個一家一定要符合採購器官他的條件比方說他是否符合什麼樣的什麼樣的條件"},{"start":13347.72,"end":13373.234,"text":"他的招標文件他的採購契約招標文件他一定是具有比方說他有多少資本額他有多少時機那他的底價是不是落在這個採購機關的這個底價之下這些都有一定的不是說一家機關因為我們現在是參考參考歐美那他們就是在在他們是也是一樣是公開競爭的那他們必須要技術上沒有辦法被替代然後還有"},{"start":13374.435,"end":13397.754,"text":"知識知識產權排他性他們才會使用單一家來去做我們這個招標方式很多種嘛我就說有的是用評選的有的是底價的有的是先評資格然後再來溢價的都有所以是不同的所以這個不是解讀說一家來任何一家我們都要決標給他並不是這樣子"},{"start":13398.755,"end":13414.074,"text":"因為剛才Asway我有提到嘛就是像我們有看到就是國防部最近的案子嘛像一個六億元的國防採購案得標的是一家室內裝修公司那國防部說他合法他在形式上是符合資格的那問題是這樣的結果是正常的嗎"},{"start":13416.322,"end":13437.331,"text":"機關他可以去設定他採購的內容他可以要求什麼樣的廠商能夠進來投標比如說剛才資本的有多少時機他曾經做過這個項目有多少時機那做這些要求之後避免這個沒有時機的進入他的這個採購"},{"start":13439.423,"end":13462.959,"text":"是因為政府的採購他有非常多像國防採購然後還有公共工程嘛然後鐵路還是捷運像這一類的那我們會不會來接下來來做分級化呢我們本來就有分級有具有採購因為像看到國防這個採購的案那我們看到這樣高度專業還有風險極高的採購案在絕標之前都沒有一個機制那到底我們有沒有一個機制來做審核"},{"start":13466.864,"end":13475.48,"text":"國防部他採購我剛剛講過按照他需求所以財相主委了解我們到底是靠什麼來做把關他有主管機關也有工程會可以去查核"},{"start":13477.609,"end":13498.872,"text":"目前他說形式上他認為是沒有違法所以今天就是要向主委了解如果我們把這個競爭拿掉之後我們面臨到的風險我們要怎麼去應對呢是每一個都有風險 三家也有風險你剛才舉國防部這個例子也是在現行的採購法之下發生的風險"},{"start":13499.833,"end":13523.085,"text":"所以呢我們很多配套措施必須來讓這個一家能夠開標這個修正能夠降低風險這是也是委員所關心的啦那主委那最後那在單一的投標的加壓延遲還有他風險緊急的機制啊那還沒有被制度化之前那可不可以請工程會明確的承諾我們不會就是冒然的來推動就是取消最低的競爭"},{"start":13524.646,"end":13546.798,"text":"這個也只有在大院三讀通過之後我們才有可能實施才有可能實施我們希望在這之前就可以明確就是你們已經有制定說那接下來就只剩一家來做法律沒有修正就是為此現行的三家OK好謝謝主委好謝謝接下來再請廖先生委員質詢"},{"start":13556.93,"end":13582.963,"text":"謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的陳主委陳主委請委員長主委午安先跟您請教一下地方的事情我們現在新北市的基隆捷運去年經過行政院應該前年經過行政院核定地方政府去年有送基本設計的審議到交通部了"},{"start":13583.283,"end":13606.194,"text":"那交通部也在去年底的時候完成了審議那目前已經是轉到工程會了我不知道主委知道這件事情那我想在這邊請教一下後續我們工程會審議的可能相關的一些規劃可以讓我們的民眾知道如果有進到工程會工程會會安排基本設計審查的委員是 那麼就會這個"},{"start":13609.576,"end":13635.453,"text":"這個進行基本設計的審查那我們現在的做法就是說在基本設計審查到一段落之後會到地方去做現勘是那麼委員你會到地方去那麼到時候呢就會邀請地方關心的委員來參加那能不能大概抓一個時間當然我知道審查過程中審查不代表叫做核備嘛一定有審查的項目嘛那我們大概的流程大概會是怎麼樣那時間性可以讓大家知道一下嗎"},{"start":13636.104,"end":13664.995,"text":"他主要是審議他的基本設計的工法是否合理尤其是預算那單價是否合理那這些中整之後會作為一個結論那麼再回到這個交通部他去辦理那以過去的經驗來講的話那大概這個流程在我們中順利的話地方繳交的一些資料跟報告都是符合規範的話那我們工程會大概可以在過去的經驗大概多久以內的時間可以審訊"},{"start":13666.676,"end":13672.69,"text":"就看案大小 沒有競訴來辦理那還是業務單位可以補充一下嗎競訴處來說明一下"},{"start":13679.262,"end":13703.108,"text":"委員好 金融捷運這一個案子我們在簽程中找委員那通常我們找了委員以後呢到現場會有大概有半個一個月的時間然後請業務地方政府做修正然後大概地方政府如果快的話大概又會半個月會送達我們審議過後大概total的時間大概一個半月"},{"start":13705.268,"end":13728.624,"text":"好以上謝謝那就再麻煩我們的業務單位再多多的協助地方政府如果說有缺失的部分再麻煩多給一些指導以上謝謝那再跟主委請教一下有關採購法的部分那我在應該是去年的時候也有提到就是我們公家工程如果說得標的廠商那他可能有些財務的問題那其實我們現在的機制有一個機制叫做監管"},{"start":13729.684,"end":13758.323,"text":"這個監管的一個制度嘛對不對那就是確定下游的一些廠商在施作的時候那他是可以可能這個透過這個機制他們能夠繼續拿到錢然後繼續把工程來完成那之前遇到一個問題就是說得標的廠商他有訴訟的關係那被其他的債權人去追討然後有一個支付命令了那導致說支付命令的一個法律未接高於我們的監管契約那就變成說"},{"start":13759.564,"end":13787.802,"text":"下游的廠商如果他繼續做的話那他就拿不到錢因為我們發報單位一定是先這個支付命令優先的話錢就會先到這個債權人身上去那可能就會導致我們公共工程的一個延宕甚至導致於我們下報的廠商他拿不到他應付的款項那這樣子的部分之前好像我們同仁有提到說有預計要修法要來改善這個問題那相信大家也可能有正視到這個問題那可不可以說明一下目前的狀況"},{"start":13789.197,"end":13803.971,"text":"基本上這次修法有納入就是分包商跟次分包商在這種情形之下那麼他會強制是優先債權那我詳細情形請副主委來跟我們說好 謝謝跟我們報告就是說現行當然有一個監督付款的機制"},{"start":13804.511,"end":13833.971,"text":"但監督護管的機制是在沒有法院的命令介入以前有效如果有法院的執行命令進來因為他優先嘛我們沒有優先權所以這次我們是仿照海商法的規定就是說可能這些廠商對於這個公共工程的可以完成他有特別的這個付出所以他只要經過一個這個類似公證或認證然後讓機關核備那他將來這個債權會得到保障所以只要機關核備就可以不一定要送到工程會來"},{"start":13834.851,"end":13862.461,"text":"不用送到工程會但是它可能要經過認證或者是公證那機關它有一個等於是一個揭示的一個效果不會臨時找一個自在假在全進來所以原則上它是透過這樣的一個機制保障它可以領到工程會讓這工程繼續往下走好 那謝謝那這個部分就我們想說我們立法院也儘速來審議保障我們公共工程的品質 速度還有廠商的權益那另外再請教一下剛剛很多人在討論這個三家廠商投票的事其實當然"},{"start":13865.032,"end":13882.909,"text":"我相信會有這樣子的一個討論一定是就誠如主委講的現在資訊比較公開透明的我也認同這樣的一個論述但是你一個調了之後它實際的效益我是覺得說它實際的效益或許沒有那麼的大但是我們要我也不是說反對而是說我們要"},{"start":13883.73,"end":13890.053,"text":"來做一些我們可能預想到他可能產生了一些後續的問題因為如果說我們現在如果說一家廠商一個標案三家廠商沒有達到一家廠商來標的話其實機關不太會擔心因為我們只要再開標一次就是說等標可能會有一點點的一些時間要去等待但既然有廠商來標的話他下次也會來標這問題比較大那比較怕的是這個"},{"start":13905.661,"end":13918.15,"text":"工程的一個工程的一個編列經費有沒有符合市場的一個標的啊那當然是一個問題那我現在要提到另外的問題是我們現在如果說只一家廠商就可以來開標的話那我們擔心的是"},{"start":13919.795,"end":13946.97,"text":"這個標案的一個資訊的揭露充不充分那我以這個大家最近討論的很多的國防部的這個案子來講這個裝潢公司來採購這個炸藥的一個案子你說程序合法嗎我相信程序一定合法那個同仁怎麼可能做違法的事情但是這件事情合不合理那也就是說我們要得到要投標的時候我們必須要拿到原廠的一個授權對不對以這個標案來講的話必須要拿到原廠的授權它有一些門檻"},{"start":13948.01,"end":13962.703,"text":"那當我這個標案有門檻的時候我的採購機關它有沒有足夠的時間讓所有有意願來投標的廠商都有時間去處理這些前置作業跟門檻我覺得這是我後續會去擔心的"},{"start":13963.223,"end":13993.023,"text":"那就變成說如果說我以後有一個標案的時候大家擔心的時候你會不會跟某一家廠商講好了你先去準備前置的作業然後等到我一開標等標期我也不給你太長我就直接絕標了我們會擔心會有這樣後續的逼併所以我知道在一些很大的一些工程比如說剛剛講的捷運的工程都會有一些公開閱覽的制度讓所有有意願的廠商都有機會知道說這個標案要標什麼那我要準備什麼東西等到開標的時候大家公平競爭一起來投標但是當我們把這三家廠商的"},{"start":13995.246,"end":14009.305,"text":"這個規定拿掉之後這一家的時候那我就會擔心我剛剛講這些弊病我們未來要怎麼樣子的去去防範無論是我們公開提前的公開閱覽或是等標期的一個合理化拉長這部分麻煩這個主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":14009.465,"end":14027.071,"text":"有 這次也是我們修法裡面有的 比方說我們要求預算審完了之後 比方說專案政府總預算11月底要審訊嘛那審完了之後呢 機關就必須在一定時間之內對外來說明 對外來公告那大家就知道你這個機關有這筆預算了"},{"start":14029.532,"end":14057.332,"text":"要什麼時候要來採購那採購的時候當然現在都登記在政府電子採購網上面那麼都會知道那等標期那麼要求比較長所以這個配套措施都已經有考慮到資訊對 尤其是一些特殊的採購我覺得我們工程會一定要去給機關一些約束就是特殊的採購剛剛講的也需要廠商要有前置作業多久的前置作業是合理的那你就要給多久"},{"start":14058.172,"end":14072.002,"text":"然後再給一些比較保守的空間讓這些廠商都有時間去準備那才有一個公平競爭的環境等標期很重要我們也曾經看過比如說大的案它是跟國外廠商合作來投標但是那個"},{"start":14073.831,"end":14098.513,"text":"計畫是英文 當翻譯要花一點時間所以如果這等標期很短可能有人事先就知道這個案他已經準備好了那你如果說等標期很短他光把那個整個設計翻譯成中文就時間就不夠所以這個等標期要夠長 這個我們工程會會做適當的要求好 那麻煩 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":14102.881,"end":14117.202,"text":"好再來請王洪威委員質詢謝謝主席我請陳金德陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":14123.075,"end":14145.806,"text":"委員長主委長今天因為那個之前高雄爆發了很多的這個土方亂倒那甚至出現這整個的那個一個大峽谷那所以呢在我們的國土署就針對了土方有一個新制度從今年1月1號上路您應該知道嗎 裝GPS"},{"start":14147.686,"end":14170.441,"text":"對 那但是它影響所及第一個我們土方可以到的這個合法的這個土資場有限然後呢再加上就是因為這個新的制度很多你要符合現在國土署的標準的GPS的這個運送車它可能沒有這樣合格的標準所以呢"},{"start":14171.601,"end":14199.436,"text":"現在發生一個狀況就是有很多的土資廠都通知從今年1月1號開始他們暫停收容土方我想這你應該知道所以也引起了全省各地很多的工地停工再加上他們的土方的處理那個價格暴增所以有的甚至暴增到10倍但是問題是說現在已經有陸陸續續的很多的土資廠都通知"},{"start":14200.316,"end":14223.705,"text":"在他們沒有辦法符合相關規定之前他們是暫停收土方的那我想請問一下現在變成是全台就是有很多的工地因此而停工那我不曉得在我們公共工程的部分有沒有也受到影響或者您所了解這個狀況它有沒有一個辦法可以去做一個解決"},{"start":14224.935,"end":14249.627,"text":"基本上公共工程的部分比較少反正是建商的部分比較多很多不只是建商我知道只有民間的工地營造業民間營造業都受到影響這裡面有幾個問題就是說各縣市政府他理應當他地方的這些清運清除業者或土地廠聯合抵制的時候他政府機關應該要有"},{"start":14252.988,"end":14275.796,"text":"他自己公辦的土資場或公辦的戰事場他要設法去戰事或區劃現在都很少就是各縣市政府很少因為這裡面問題很複雜所以當這些業者聯合抵制的時候的確造成一些困擾所以我在呼籲說業者並不是沒有任何空間能夠來收這些東西"},{"start":14276.616,"end":14299.695,"text":"不是零 他還有空間只是價格問題所以我是呼籲這業者應該在這種情況之下應該來不要做這種聯合抵制的動作所以應該有多少就收多少那至於說這個裝GPS或現在不足的問題我剛才提過這裡牽涉到土地使用的許可"},{"start":14300.936,"end":14326.024,"text":"所以這個我們會整合各部位的意見來做改善也請工程會能夠做一個整合的意見我想這個除了土方之外包含的民間的工程還有當然希望是公共工程不要受影響因為時間關係我要趕快講就是我剛才也做了提案的說明那這次我們有關於政府採購法的"},{"start":14327.505,"end":14342.341,"text":"這個主要就是免除這個第一次一定要三家這個我沒有什麼太大的意見但是我長期在關心的就是我們很多政府的採購案長期以來為什麼有劣質的採購"},{"start":14343.462,"end":14365.22,"text":"就是因為我們這些被列為黑名單的這些廠商他們道高一尺 謀高一丈那當然你們這次修法去要阻止像這種就是今天我的A公司被你列為黑名單但是我用我的B公司 C公司你說你們要防堵"},{"start":14365.76,"end":14388.982,"text":"但是問題來囉 現在問題是有很多 比如說我們在那個國防部的這個去一個茶葉公司去標那個電腦 這個電腦維修的案子男的被起訴了 結果他就找他的女的合夥人這女的當然由此一說是什麼可能是女朋友啦 或者女性的朋友他在找他的朋友來做這個負責人"},{"start":14390.743,"end":14411.256,"text":"繼續的去採購喔繼續去採購然後另外呢就是這些一再被列黑名單的這些廠商繼續可以來採購政府工程合理嗎我們曾經有幫你們計算過你知道最高被列黑名單的次數達到不是6次耶66次"},{"start":14414.828,"end":14438.936,"text":"你這是什麼意思啊重考也不能重考那麼多次啊你已經被列為黑名單好幾十次最高到66次然後只要他時間屆滿他又是好漢一條啦要來繼續來標你政府的工程合理嗎完全不合理對不對還有國防部最扯中科院都列為黑名單拒網名單拒絕網來的黑名單"},{"start":14442.328,"end":14468.298,"text":"國防部照樣給他標你以為這是很扯嗎 沒有沒有最扯 只有更扯竟然呢 他不但繼續讓他標連他被起訴他都不知道已經被起訴了 年終被起訴已經被中科院列為黑名單的廠商被起訴到了年末國防部繼續把案子標給他"},{"start":14470.845,"end":14478.075,"text":"各位合理嗎我們的在我們眼皮子底下我們的政府採購可以這樣搞啊"},{"start":14478.803,"end":14500.328,"text":"我們也遵照委員在前兩個會期的要求提出政府採購法的修正草案那麼將這個公司或他代表人將來在成立的公司一併停權我看到你們這次有那第二個就是說有停權幾個案的我們這次把他停權時間要加計"},{"start":14501.748,"end":14513.234,"text":"不會說你同時停錢只是停個一部分而已我們是該停錢多久就把它加記起來我知道你們現在把它加記說到五年最高五年不同機關採購會不同時間來停權但是仍然會出現我剛才講說這種多次被停權它照樣來採購"},{"start":14525.581,"end":14546.221,"text":"那个中科院他是行政法人他可以不受政府采购法的施用我知道可是你今天不要跟我讲行政法人嘛中科院跟国防部的关系谁不知道对不对然后还会发生这样的状况大家就是没有办法接受所以我仍然希望你们能够支持我们也要评估对行政法人比较"},{"start":14547.202,"end":14568.762,"text":"什麼樣的行政法人可以不適用什麼樣行政法人他必須要適用或者是按照政府採購法的精神他應該有一些採購的準則這個我們會來精進這個其實我們是未來不要講行政法人行政法人就不需要遵守這個採購法你行政法人用的不是也是這個民脂民膏嗎"},{"start":14569.383,"end":14588.597,"text":"他也是百分之百是國防部的錢沒有錯啊也是完全是國防部的預算所以這一點我是支持但是基本上我這邊所提出來的三政條款我真的覺得要有一個次數你達到這個次數你就要永久除名不能再給他有重考的機會對不對我請副主委來說明好不好"},{"start":14595.621,"end":14613.87,"text":"我們事實上有很認真的去演繹這個問題那麼也在跟很多專業團體去討論通常一般來講是法律界比較認為說這種有點類似像有點像是判死刑的因為公司畢竟是人在"},{"start":14615.091,"end":14632.575,"text":"我們廢死到這種地步不是 因為公司的經營主體會變更他跟一般自然不大一樣就像現在上市公司他可能這一次是一個經營團體然後下次會變因為我時間到了我意思說不能讓他重考到這種地步我說已經被列黑名單66次他接下來過兩年好漢一條繼續來飆你覺得我們社會觀感如何納稅人能夠接受嗎你們能接受我們沒有辦法接受好不好"},{"start":14645.154,"end":14671.271,"text":"好這個還是希望你們能夠去那個檢討謝謝謝謝再請黃國昌委員繼續謝謝主席有請公共工程委員會主任委員麻煩有請國防部的官員國防部"},{"start":14679.351,"end":14702.352,"text":"國防部採購採購室發包處處長兩位好委員長在國會殿堂我非常痛恨官員說謊在各個民主先進國家官員在國會"},{"start":14703.959,"end":14731.354,"text":"背詢也好聽證也好說謊必須要面臨非常嚴重的法律責任但是台灣的民主非常的特別有一群奇怪的人說在國會說謊處罰是違憲的判決做出來了我們也都尊重留待給歷史跟後人去評價也讓台灣的國會成為獨步全球說謊沒有關係的國會"},{"start":14733.806,"end":14757.184,"text":"會造成什麼狀況呢說明一下這個案子我追非常久了納稅人支持國防支持國軍但是納稅人的錢不是拿去給不肖廠商胡搞瞎搞納稅人的錢去做抗彈纖維去做防彈背心"},{"start":14758.587,"end":14787.415,"text":"結果有廠商去用中國的劣質貨來魚目混珠治國軍弟兄的安危與不顧這種垃圾廠商我是深惡痛絕我深惡痛絕所以我開始追了兩個垃圾廠商一個叫大眾電腦得標0.7億一個是大同公司得標2.45億整個弊案被揭發了以後"},{"start":14788.615,"end":14817.047,"text":"整個弊案被揭發以後這個都判刑了啦所以不用再去扯什麼要尊重司法判決啦大眾電腦停權了停權三年我一直在追是大同的政商背景大股比較強是不是為什麼大同沒有一併停權我問國防部我問國防部"},{"start":14819.093,"end":14845.049,"text":"有一個特定的綠色媒體啊上面講說呢這個只有計算慈嚴罰啦沒收旅費保證金啊沒有停權是工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報這件事情我質詢過主委也回答過回去查了以後根本沒調解那根本沒調解問題就來了是這個綠色媒體在說謊"},{"start":14848.072,"end":14870.244,"text":"還是誰在說謊我問國防部國防部說那個綠色媒體的陳述不是事實消息來源也不是本部結果被人家打臉了被人家打臉了國防部傳給那個媒體的訊息都被人家PO出來了那現在問題來了來 請國防部請國防部"},{"start":14873.625,"end":14892.2,"text":"當初國防部誰決定含附給我的內容竟然敢說謊說這個訊息的來源不是國防部誰做這個決定的現在是國防部跟特定的媒體幫忙在幫大同公司為事嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":14895.177,"end":14923.119,"text":"報委員那個跟委員說明一下這個部分因為本部後來查證可能是時間點的落差那什麼叫時間點的落差胡說八道早就回了什麼叫時間點的落差那跟委員報告那這個部分確實國防部現在是在散佈假訊息嗎是嗎不是不是報委員這個部分就是經本部查證就是確實是由廣部提供的對啊"},{"start":14924.192,"end":14952.986,"text":"但沒有進行調解啊所以我才說嘛 國防部第一個欺騙我在國會說謊第二個國防部散佈的是百分之百的假訊息根本沒有進行調解所以因為進行調解 所以沒有停權這不是假訊息嗎這徹徹底底的假訊息啊請問國防部懲處了誰要不要懲處"},{"start":14954.336,"end":14976.787,"text":"委員這個部分我們會檢討如何檢討 用嘴巴檢討是 用嘴巴檢討報告委員這個部分這個部分已經在檢討中已經在檢討 檢討多久啦我質詢這件事情超過一年國防部檢討這件事情檢討到今天還在檢討要檢討到什麼時候檢討到2028年嗎還是要檢討到2032年要檢討多久"},{"start":14985.342,"end":15012.812,"text":"要檢討多久兩週內給我書面回覆誰要負責誰要對這個假訊息負責更重要的事情是什麼哪是因為調解所以沒有刊登政府採購公報實際上面的狀況是什麼能拖就拖 能混就混嘛能拖就拖 能混就混啊"},{"start":15013.888,"end":15039.631,"text":"大眾電腦的八股可能比較不強馬上就被停權了大同的八股很強拖了非常久拖到要刊登政府採購公報的時候採取權時效屆滿這不就是你們國防部放水嗎一直拖一直混混到採取權時效屆滿"},{"start":15041.67,"end":15053.435,"text":"沒有辦法刊登政府採購公報這個責任有在追究嗎有在追究嗎回去檢討 一樣兩個禮拜之內怎麼檢討的 要懲處誰書面回覆 可以嗎來 請主委"},{"start":15062.915,"end":15090.983,"text":"今天我看到你們政府採購法的修法我看了非常的詫異過去已經有用混的混到採儲權時效過了用中國的假布料來當我們阿兵哥的抗彈背心因為採儲權時效過了過到什麼過到根本沒有刊登政府採購公報依照現行法的規定採儲權的時效多久就五年"},{"start":15092.065,"end":15096.141,"text":"你們修成幾年兩年所以是怎麼樣放水的還不夠多"},{"start":15099.099,"end":15125.325,"text":"放水的還不夠多包括我那個有關那個採取權時效如果是行政法法的部分是三年啦是公法請求權才是五年是 沒錯所以一樣你還是縮短啊但是因為我看不啊覺得這些不肖廠商趕快讓他採取權時效過了就不用刊登政府採購公報了大家一起上下交鄉賊一起混是這樣嗎"},{"start":15127.495,"end":15153.771,"text":"是嗎我們是要促使機關要進鑿 不論說有喔 來來來 你看一下你隔壁的國防部叫促使機關進鑿喔促使機關要放水的時候比較好放啦不用拖那麼久 不用混那麼久啊混兩年就可以啦混兩年就可以了喔你們提這種修法出來 我老實跟你講啊四個字送給你們 丟人現眼丟人現眼"},{"start":15157.182,"end":15157.708,"text":"我在這邊公開講"},{"start":15160.024,"end":15186.62,"text":"採取權時效縮短成兩年台灣民眾黨黨團絕對不會接受跟委員再報告一下絕對不會接受目前的這個公法的採取權時效它是採客觀主義 它是以事實發聲有時候機關更快那我們現在講的是說你知悉以後兩年那當然你很難這樣直接去比較說到底哪一個比較長比較短我老實跟你講啦不要內行人講外行話啦什麼叫採取權時效"},{"start":15188.361,"end":15216.25,"text":"財主權時效是你法律上面不能夠繼續追溯嘛有因此而阻礙機關要更有效率更早去做嗎沒有啊沒有啊你不用延長機關如果真的想辦就趕快辦啊有人禁止你一個月就停權嗎兩個月就停權嗎沒有啊財主權時效就是開一個後門嘛放水嘛時間過了就放過去嘛現在讓我詫異的是什麼"},{"start":15217.358,"end":15244.731,"text":"差異的是你們修政府採購法是把後門打開一點我再說一次啦這件事情交給社會大眾公平台灣民眾黨立法院黨團的立場很清楚我絕對不會同意你們把它縮短好 謝謝來 接下來羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":15255.018,"end":15274.725,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請我們陳主委陳靜德主委請委員早主委早 今天的修法可以說是大修那你現在大概就是說舊的法律大概70年前的阿嬤級的法律"},{"start":15275.427,"end":15296.872,"text":"那再來就是說第一次決標就流標的70%以上的案件那我現在講說你們又拿出那個機關買機票還要三加這種東西不合時宜然後舉了說資訊充分 電子化了那我們配套會有等標期延長等等"},{"start":15297.932,"end":15313.507,"text":"其實我不是跟你談採購機票或小額的各個機關的小額狀況我現在要跟你討論的是類似三階現在三階四階整個巨額採購裡面的疑似招標的黑幕"},{"start":15316.089,"end":15317.81,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們看到幾個台灣巨額採購尤其是營造產業裡面的巨額採購從三接的弊案然後再轉折再影射到四接兩大營造廠的鬥爭看得人家眼花繚亂"},{"start":15338.32,"end":15360.663,"text":"那我現在講台灣營造產業巨額採購在大型的巨額採購而且越來越流行原本可以分標的政府都很多刻意併標故意併標那因為政府併標的金額動輒數百億所以變成符合資格的廠商加數屈指可數"},{"start":15361.744,"end":15379.731,"text":"在這種狀況裡面全台灣就那幾家大型營造公司有資格而已那我們知道營造業是勞力密集也是資本密集的產業集中大標所以現在的現況是什麼動輒數百億你說阿嬤級的採購法可是營造業法也是歐巴桑級的採購法"},{"start":15387.054,"end":15390.135,"text":"在這種狀況裡面你們在這種狀況裡面大型上百億數百億的採購事實上這幾家有資格的因為資本而限制無折承主委時代開放成淨值的這個開放條件你們也要把它關起來的話"},{"start":15404.719,"end":15429.811,"text":"在這種狀況就是那幾間全台灣就是那幾間但是市場上這幾家寡占的公司大型的營造公司每一個手上都案件滿滿的這幾家寡占的公司的工作量都幾乎都在飽和的狀況所以他們沒有急迫性需要去立即投標"},{"start":15431.013,"end":15444.014,"text":"所以你現在看到的說三家流標我告訴你我們明明知道這些數百億的巨額的不是三家流標也不是一家流標來投標的是零"},{"start":15446.417,"end":15452.604,"text":"所以我們大家內行人也不要講外行話三家投標留標兩個禮拜以後一家來投標就可以開標了差兩禮拜十四天你說這個候選人會比較好大家都說第一次留標率70%很高"},{"start":15468.8,"end":15471.483,"text":"不要騙外行的14天後一斤就可以開錶這才是真正的事實但是巨額採購的問題不是一斤巨額採購的問題是沒半斤"},{"start":15484.415,"end":15500.757,"text":"因為我現在要跟你講主委在你把併標可以拆標的你把它併標變成超大再加上你的營造業法再加上你從嚴去處理的話超大巨額的公共工程流標的問題它不是效率的問題"},{"start":15501.818,"end":15507.901,"text":"而是你來看三接的故事還包括設計 預算 規格 工期的規定或是並標市場造成的壟斷還有寡占所衍生的問題接下來是我問了AI Check GPT"},{"start":15520.527,"end":15541.566,"text":"因為寡占對營造業的市場結構它導致了大者恆大 小者消亡它會加速市場集中化因為它必須要雄厚的資本業績技術關係網絡的大型廠商而且他們在取得資格他們在制定"},{"start":15542.707,"end":15571.081,"text":"規格的時候取得優勢影響規格設計所以他們大型巨額的這些廠商可以更能承受單獨投標的風險跟成本而在這個過程中小型專業的廠商更容易被邊緣化當標案導向唯一的廠商決標時一架相對能力是差的中小廠商更沒有辦法他們會被系統性的排除在外"},{"start":15571.741,"end":15584.172,"text":"而被迫成為大廠的下游分包商會失去了直接承攬公共工程的機會會導致中間的企業消失市場的活力下降然後這個是對營造業的業者的市場"},{"start":15586.994,"end":15605.183,"text":"如果對於社會來講它會做什麼它會形成區域或領域性的寡占和壟斷在特定工程的領域淺頓的 電廠的高科技的廠房或偏遠地區有能力承作的廠商本來就少"},{"start":15605.783,"end":15621.77,"text":"如果你這樣子改革下去我現在講的都是大型的營造的環境既有的少數的廠商更容易透過技術或資格壁壘長久壟斷該類工程新進者難以挑戰"},{"start":15623.23,"end":15641.363,"text":"現在已經會發生了已經有部分現象發生了可能會出現分區治理和分業治理的默契也就是甲廠商不願意不會投入乙廠商的標乙廠商也不會介入甲廠商的勢力範圍形成一種隱性的卡特"},{"start":15642.344,"end":15661.175,"text":"我們都知道黃昌做北部比如說紅華做南部也不會去侵占個人的領域啦你去看三階四階就知道了在這種狀況裡面還會意志創新和技術提升因為在缺乏競爭的環境下"},{"start":15662.816,"end":15683.118,"text":"得標的廠商要用新工法新材料新技術來提升效率還是要維持現有的利潤高的做法作為最優先的選擇這個我們不得而知啦好那對公共工程的具體負面影響是什麼我這個都是問chat GPT的啦"},{"start":15684.929,"end":15711.758,"text":"第一個工程成本顯著上升寡占市場最直接的後果就是缺乏價格競爭廠商報價會趨近於政府可接受的最高價格就是底價而不是市場競爭下的合理價格所以造成我們政府公共財政支出將大幅增加排擠其他建設預算"},{"start":15713.438,"end":15729.242,"text":"這個案子在三階四階大家會生會癮的時候我們就看到了很很我不曉得啦看到什麼大家去想像吧然後再來品質和效率的雙重風險品質的風險因為"},{"start":15732.987,"end":15741.672,"text":"你三接 黃昌四接 我要公信我七接 東北拿起來公信又夾洪華譬如說 大家都自己要愛的都頭有刀 大家都鼓勵其實本本就好大家在打問號 是不是這樣子我剛剛講的是人家的問號所以沒有競爭對手的比較難以判斷出廠商提出的技術方案是否為最佳"},{"start":15761.323,"end":15785.239,"text":"沒有競爭對手一家投標就開標了屢約期間廠商因為缺乏比較基準和競爭威脅可能降低施工標準資深偷工減料的誘因好那我們要講你打著效率的這個口號那在效率的風險獨佔廠商可能缺乏按時完工的急迫性供其延宕的風險增加"},{"start":15787.46,"end":15805.605,"text":"機關因為找不到其他可替代的廠商談判和監督的籌碼大減這是不是現實?這是不是現象?看起來好像也很多台灣的公共工程界也有這種現象就沒有人要裱啊他就說你要再蓋啊 工具要再蓋啊我才要來裱啊沒半斤不是一斤沒辦法開裱的問題是沒半斤"},{"start":15814.628,"end":15832.522,"text":"因為大家都講 他們的容量有限嘛所以它有一個問題的風險在公共工程上 它會too big to fail大到不能倒的系統風險少數大型廠商 壟斷多數重大工程你看我剛才講的幾間 看不看得到幾百億也幾千億的工程在手上"},{"start":15837.265,"end":15854.338,"text":"如果其中一家發生財務危機公安事件或者是經營不善將導致多個重大公共公司同時停擺對國家建設和經濟造成衝擊所以大道不能倒然後還有一個資深更隱蔽更穩固的貪腐結構"},{"start":15856.94,"end":15881.061,"text":"在寡占市場的這個狀況裡面使得廠商跟官員民代之間更容易形成長期的穩固的政商共生關係利益輸送的單一標案的合作它會升級成長期的領域的保護和分潤查緝上更為困難再來第五個"},{"start":15882.702,"end":15903.334,"text":"計劃風險和彈性會盡失機關在規劃工程的時候會擔心只有一家投標而被迫向既有寡占的廠商的技術和能力傾斜限制工程設計的想像和突破機關的選擇權跟主導權實質上是移交給市場上的寡占的人"},{"start":15904.295,"end":15908.437,"text":"所以在這裡我是要跟你講說我們知道有很多小型的採購案的確真的沒有辦法沒有辦法三家來比價來標都沒有 其他都沒有但是也不要忘了"},{"start":15919.682,"end":15939.072,"text":"在巨額數百億上百億的大型採購裡面就是有我剛才講的問題所以政策的制定者你必須意識到這不僅是關係到提升效率的工具這一個修法更是具有強大的市場形塑力量的槓桿"},{"start":15940.052,"end":15952.626,"text":"在考慮取消加速門檻的同時你必須推出反壟斷要保護競爭的強力配套比如說你要嚴格的執行公平交易法在營造業的聯合行為強大"},{"start":15955.689,"end":15984.668,"text":"或者是說你強制要幫要將大型的標案拆分保障中小企業參與的部分項目或者是前述所有的強化透明度和監督的機制否則長期來看是弊大於利所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的希望這個不是技術性的調整所以是政府制度採購公平性的根本的動搖如果配套真的不夠的話"},{"start":15985.909,"end":16010.714,"text":"如果全面實施 程序面搞成這樣子將會淪為全面掩護黑箱的合法外衣如果你沒有把底價的審查要更嚴格評選委員要更公開化事後成效要追蹤 沒有同步入法那麼這一個修法可能會被解讀成事項"},{"start":16012.494,"end":16032.561,"text":"這個特殊利益團體的妥協的一個部分所以我在這裡在最後抱歉了主席我再講最後一個第一個就是說有幾個問題按一旅因為現在綁標犯罪你給他修修成不違法了"},{"start":16033.888,"end":16049.106,"text":"那消除了培標的成本那變相的降低了勾結的難度當培標不再有成本是不是反而增加業者勾結的可能性我現在不是針對我們巨額了我現在談的是地方政府也有可能"},{"start":16049.907,"end":16067.113,"text":"大家都知道地方政府的採購綁標一直都是大問題所以在這種狀況裡面你公開閱覽或公告計畫或者是審標期等標期再加長可是呢技術性的綁標難查含產效應"},{"start":16070.074,"end":16088.081,"text":"同業知道了也不敢舉發再來就是內定廠商他本來就跟機關溝通好久好久了外界的廠商看到了你再增加10天的等標什麼標他也沒辦法因為他不知道材料夠不夠他不知道他的成本有沒有反應"},{"start":16088.701,"end":16115.231,"text":"所以人已經喘好久在等了你是看到這開始不用說也是有這個落差再來平權委員會的人為操作的空間價格競爭市場價格競爭機制的全面崩解所以沒有審慎的評估而且要補齊這個制度性房幣的配套真的是非常非常的危險所以如何防止這個"},{"start":16116.82,"end":16123.384,"text":"規格綁標如何抑制價格壟斷在這種狀況裡面你需不需要引入外部的專業評估或者是你的規格綁標要不要強制由獨立第三方還要進行規格審查你如何防範微標跟不為投標的設計你的監督機制有沒有可能微標行為從組織三家去培標變成勸退或恐嚇其他潛在的投標者"},{"start":16147.901,"end":16171.602,"text":"然後有沒有建立投標議場的分析機制那你如何維持市場的競爭和產業平衡有沒有保障中小型或新進廠商參與的積極措施有沒有定期監測營造市場的集中度的指標而現在大型採購巨額採購上百億的採購的確就超級集中啊"},{"start":16172.362,"end":16188.15,"text":"還有透明度跟客責和救濟只有一家投標的案件他的完整的招標的文件評審過程的記錄決標的理由還有價格的分析是不是要用更高的標準主動公開"},{"start":16189.511,"end":16217.621,"text":"公務員在辦理只有一家絕標投標時他的絕標的價格有沒有明顯高於市場黃金或後續的履約品質低落這些公務人員在辦理這個程序的時候這個承辦的公務人員的行政責任是不是會加重要不要加重有沒有更明確的課則的條款那有沒有退場的機制應變的和退場的機制這個制度"},{"start":16219.301,"end":16234.936,"text":"老實說我講的這個三家變一家只是其中一條啦其中一個你整個五十條裡面問題重重不是只有這一個那因為時間有限所以我現在只能談這一點還有其他還有很多"},{"start":16236.258,"end":16253.153,"text":"所以主委你要不要談一看現行的超大型的上百億的巨額的採購營造業市場是不是就是這樣子那他不是一家也不是沒有效率大家都知道第一屆要三天來標第二屆兩星期後一天就可以開標了不要再說了"},{"start":16258.658,"end":16268.446,"text":"沒效率 沒有 不是這個問題現在的問題是 他們都吃飽飽 不愛飽你都去餓 只有這幾天有足夠這幾天要來飽就說 你要再給我提加錢 否則我不做加工期 否則我不做加價格 否則我不做到底是什麼 到底是怎麼一回事 不知道一直不斷併標再併標不是的零標來投標的是零 不是一家"},{"start":16287.998,"end":16290.26,"text":"是不是這個問題3階 4階 7階好 林委員 時間的關係我們是不是 主委 幾位都不用講喔謝謝指教 我們會參考"},{"start":16307.386,"end":16331.053,"text":"我說的不是效率問題不在於效率的確也有需要的也有需要這樣開放的但是在這個領域我講的這個領域這樣子搞下去問題很嚴重所以這個是我也不會說問題又很多主席你這麼多白白的謝謝好 謝謝未來豬條審查的時候我們也歡迎大家都一起來豬條審查謝謝"},{"start":16334.312,"end":16359.038,"text":"好 接下來鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在 林倩琦 林倩琦林倩琦委員不在 游皓游皓游皓委員不在 請葉元之委員自選麻煩請主委 謝謝陳菁的主委請"},{"start":16367.169,"end":16395.788,"text":"委員長主委好早上的時候因為現在總預算一直沒有過當然在野黨也有我們的立場我們是認為說行政院應該要按照三讀通過的法律來編列預算行政院是說他覺得違憲他不能編但我們會覺得違不違憲不是行政院說的算法律既然生效就應該依法編列所以現在卡住了行政院也沒有要退的意思現在行政院一直說法是說會影響到很多新興計畫"},{"start":16397.529,"end":16417.46,"text":"因為例行性的不會影響去年兩兆九千多億他現在都可以用現在是新興計畫會受到影響那我早上是聽你跟應該是民進黨委員有一個對話是說如果新興計畫沒辦法執行的話部會可以個別把新興計畫送到立法院如果立法院可以同意的話還是可以執行是這樣嗎"},{"start":16418.38,"end":16441.525,"text":"它是預算法裡面就是說新興計畫是如果總預算沒有審過新興計畫是不能執行但是呢如果立法院同意是不再此限那這個指的是行政院對立法院的關係對所以新興計畫如果要先檢討是可以的是不是就是看立法院要不要同意要同意嘛所以行政院如果認為新興計畫真的很重要的話它可以針對新興計畫個別送過來嘛對吧"},{"start":16444.766,"end":16464.324,"text":"不是特別就是這個新興計畫上立法院如果同意使用是可以的但是新興計畫你如果其他的沒有辦法執行會面臨一些困難所以如果是你的話你會建議行政院怎麼做如果他真的認為新興計畫這麼重要的話我早是認為中華民國立法院"},{"start":16465.435,"end":16484.555,"text":"很多年了很少有總預算沒有省到下年度了中華民國這麼多年了也沒有行政院不依法執行編列預算的這個是很例外的一種現象所以我只是覺得大家不要利用這個時間在吵因為吵不完大家各有立場如果你問我我當然覺得應該依法編列預算"},{"start":16485.936,"end":16503.19,"text":"那只要他願意依法編列預算這個就解了嘛那在他不願意依法行政的情況下如果新興計畫你的意思是說他可以個別如果立法院同意的話新興計畫可以來致用是這個意思嗎預算要是附委的才能審查審查了才能夠發現有沒有依法"},{"start":16505.206,"end":16515.897,"text":"你現在就是沒有依法我不在這邊跟你吵這個啦因為這個吵三分鐘都吵不完啦因為這個在這個大家都已經很了解了啦那我現在只是問說如果卡在這邊那因為有別的委員問你新興計畫的問題嘛你說其實還有一個解套方式嗎我說新興計畫就以治水來調適非常好"},{"start":16526.749,"end":16553.196,"text":"我們現在就看行政院就是說就是要卡在這邊他不認為這個新計畫很重要還是怎麼樣我們看行政院的態度就像那個軍購案1.25兆現在行政院或總統一直認為那個很重要可是他覺得很重要他送來條例就只有七條就寫得不清不楚如果他認為很重要我認為他應該會寫得很詳細但是就隨便寫寫所以這個行政院跟總統到底有沒有認為這個預算很重要"},{"start":16554.176,"end":16573.633,"text":"還是只是嘴巴講講還是說只是把它拿來當作一個政治口水來噴在野黨的一個工具我全民都在看那我跟你請教一下那個標案的問題我想問一下主委像有一些採購案評分單上面如果說有一些採購是不是有時候會要求這個廠商時機"},{"start":16575.194,"end":16592.549,"text":"譬如說有些廠商如果沒有接過政府標案的話他還不能夠來投標有的時候是這樣嘛對吧這是各採購機關他可以去訂定他的這個投標廠各採購機關當然是各採購機關但因為您是主管採購的最高機關我們只管他的採購有沒有合乎採購法"},{"start":16594.111,"end":16610.09,"text":"資格問題是各機關去認定可是因為你是最高的機關如果當你看到有一些機關它的做法可能會影響到公共品質或是採購的優劣的話你也不能坐視不管我們也是依法來管我們也是要依法來管"},{"start":16610.53,"end":16630.941,"text":"但是你不能做事不管你現在做到的都是最低標準法律的但是你都沒有想要好還要更好嗎你的態度就覺得說你做得不好但是好像也沒違法不管我的事但是國人對你們期待不是只有這樣我希望說尤其是你還是政務委員國人對這個國防預算的期待也跟大家不一樣"},{"start":16632.161,"end":16659.037,"text":"國人是多少百分之幾的國人對 你去問看看百分之幾的國人國防預算重不重要我們對於國防預算我們也希望說我們也希望總統跟行政院可以提出更詳細的說明不是這個七條不是 總統現在我在質詢你採購的問題你不要扯東扯西好不好是你先說國防預算我沒有 我現在在講採購是你先說國防預算我現在在講廠商時機我現在在講廠商時機我也是回答你我也是回答你時機你不要每次來都來吵架好不好"},{"start":16660.916,"end":16684.322,"text":"你在吵架還是在被尋的啊我沒有跟任何人吵架啊我現在在跟你講說現在如果有一些單位他在採購的時候沒有訂出廠商時機導致於這個採購可能會品質不好那正在工程委員會的立場是什麼這個是你不瞭解政務採購法但是主委你的意思是說那是歸各採購單位這是你不瞭解政務採購法我很瞭解我跟你講個實際狀況採購機關有他的要求嗎"},{"start":16688.343,"end":16706.088,"text":"我們在我的選區板橋有一個郵局本來講說去年年底就要開幕後來現在一直拖又要拖到兩三個月原因是什麼原因是那個廠商室內裝修廠商一直出包所以廠商過去的時機他跟政府能不能配合他能不能履約這個不重要嗎"},{"start":16707.068,"end":16728.157,"text":"如果這個廠商沒有提出一個他優良的時機會導致他這個合約能不能夠履行嘛就這麼簡單嘛那當他沒有辦法履行的話他延誤的是誰延誤的是我們一般的民眾使用郵局的權利嘛所以站在公共工程的角度我只是舉這個例子所以站在工程委員會的角度當你看到各個機關如果他訂了採購的標準"},{"start":16729.477,"end":16750.21,"text":"可能會影響事後履約本來你本來就是應該行政指導啊而不是說定一個最低的標準你只要沒有違法都不關我的事你都不會想說站在民眾角度怎麼讓公共工程可以做得更好這個採購的指引我們都有啦當然是希望機關是嘛 那今天為什麼會找你討論這個事情是因為之前國防部就是很奇怪嘛"},{"start":16751.328,"end":16764.348,"text":"不是嗎是不是你叫國防部上來回答你的問題今天國防部的事情大家都討論我現在不是那今天這個問題如果是國防部會發生其他單位不會發生嗎其他單位不會發生我們討論原則性欠提嘛"},{"start":16768.172,"end":16783.723,"text":"主席我今天我要請誰回答是工程會備詢的人可以來決定的嗎我現在問你原則性的問題嘛我問你原則性的問題不是啦我沒有看過那麼浩漫的官員啦好 葉委員那個陳主委我想這一整天了"},{"start":16784.827,"end":16810.257,"text":"一樣我們還是重申交通委員會我們就是針對議題來解決問題那等一下再請我們葉委員再持續質詢那我也要求陳主委因為備詢官員與否回答是委員的權益所以委員有指定哪一個官員回答的時候再請那官員上來那但是也拜託葉委員就是說您的問題把比較聚焦一點讓主委這邊可以針對您的問題來回答"},{"start":16811.5,"end":16832.282,"text":"我的問題很聚焦啦我問題問廠商時機他扯到軍購預算了不是故意來拖時間的嗎繼續好不好 謝謝我現在我的問題我想請教一下譬如說以國防部來講我是舉那個例子我們討論一個通案如果要政府採購採購一個巨額的採購但是資本額他只有定20萬這樣合不合理"},{"start":16833.459,"end":16855.594,"text":"我不曉得什麼假設的案它實際上發生的案每一個機構他當然要訂相關的採購廠商的資格包括時機包括資本額包括有多少專業的人力能不能履約這個當然要訂這個通案是要訂至於國防部這個案子為什麼這樣最能夠說明的就是國防部我不能代他說明"},{"start":16856.074,"end":16870.728,"text":"不是我問一下主委你認為這樣子資格標因為他第一關是資格標嘛他第二個他按照顧立雄的說法他是說只要能夠語約就好反正他不能語約就扣他的錢是不是資格標我不清楚啦你們是選擇性招標還是還是公開招標20萬當然是定在資格裡面嘛"},{"start":16874.071,"end":16892.71,"text":"那個不叫做選擇性招標不是 我沒有說選擇性招標我說那個資本額20萬他有沒有訂一個資本額的標準在那邊資格上面有沒有要求說資本額一定要多少所以這個應該要請國防部來說明好 那請他說明我等一下通案的我再來問你請教好不好可以國防部署長請"},{"start":16901.44,"end":16910.567,"text":"委員好 有關這個案子是我們這個火藥原物料的案子那這個案子我們為了廣徵商源我們國內確實沒有廠商可以做"},{"start":16911.414,"end":16940.447,"text":"那這個案子其實就是賣方市場那我們為了廣徵商業你資本你有沒有定資本的標準沒有定任何資本的標準所以他資本額五萬十萬二十萬通通都可以只要他能夠提出能夠履約都可以來標所以我們以後面的履約的作為來約束廠商那如果他沒辦法履約你就扣他款嘛對嘛這就會造成我剛剛講的嘛會延誤的狀況但是我們二十年來三十八個案子沒有任何一個案子沒有辦法履約的狀況"},{"start":16941.147,"end":16960.451,"text":"那是過去的時機嘛我講的是說我們現在講通案嘛我剛剛為什麼舉那個郵局的例子就是說如果說你在採購的過程當中你標準訂的太寬很可能就會造成比如他沒辦法預約會影響到人民的權利嘛我講的是這件事情嘛我跟委員報告郵局的裝修跟買國防彈尿是兩回事"},{"start":16960.911,"end":16990.362,"text":"我知道是兩回事但是你採購東西也是要看廠商的時機我舉一個例子等一下 主委等一下好不好那時候疫情的時候衛福部也因為很緊急所以要買快篩後來不是也有一個小吃店轉型變成快篩公司可以進口快篩結果後來這個小吃店因為被踢爆說他之前是小吃店轉的他說他不接這個單子結果原來被人家發現他以前賣過假口罩"},{"start":16991.468,"end":17013.877,"text":"所以如果他那時候接了這個單子也跟衛福部簽約了可是事後沒有辦法履約他其實就會影響到這個快篩的進口嘛所以廠商時機當然會影響不管是公共工程採購勞務採購或貿易都是會影響的嘛現在我們討論的就是說那廠商的資格是要那麼寬"},{"start":17016.131,"end":17035.653,"text":"還是其實掌上資格是可以定的比較嚴格一點而不是只是靠事後他能不能履約來處分他他能夠履約就阿彌陀佛很棒他不能履約我再扣他的履約保證金但那個就是會造成採購時程的延誤我現在討論的是這件事情所以主委你的態度是什麼"},{"start":17036.567,"end":17061.588,"text":"你覺得各單位應不應該即便是這種貿易的你要講通案但是舉的例子卻是很特殊的個案採購國防的彈藥疫情的時候採購疫苗這個都不是隨便街上就買得到的那個都是賣方市場所以這個通案跟這兩個個案事實上有不盡然的關係所以我們有些是做特殊考量我是只能這樣回答你的疑問了"},{"start":17062.267,"end":17076.481,"text":"所以你還是覺得說像國防部他的這個採購還包括還有一個茶葉行可以做電腦設備跟治安的維護他的資本額10萬塊你覺得你這種問法我沒辦法做任何回覆為什麼"},{"start":17077.784,"end":17100.119,"text":"不是 因為這個採購案我沒有講得很詳細採購案我沒有講得很詳細的原因是因為這個案子已經是國人很關注就工程會主管來講 你在議政府採購吧那剛剛講的那個茶葉行咧他就是做那個資安軟體的服務然後資本額10萬塊那這個是不是賣方市場是哪一個機關 我來問問看哪一個機關國安部為什麼要這樣定情 要說明嘛"},{"start":17102.901,"end":17126.455,"text":"沒有啦主委我為什麼沒有因為第一個私訊時間有限第二個我舉的這幾個案子都是大家討論國人媒體討論很多的例子有茶葉嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛有疫苗嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛你是把最特殊的案子來指責來指責一通案嘛是不是茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎我不知道你不知道"},{"start":17128.157,"end":17136.043,"text":"你不知道茶葉行做國防部電腦軟體思案的這個你沒有聽過不是啦沒關係啦因為我為什麼沒有針對每個個案說很詳細因為我剛剛講的茶葉的或者是彈藥這些"},{"start":17145.007,"end":17168.027,"text":"這個都是國人討論非常久的案子那今天因為主委您來您是主管公共工程所以想請教你的意見就是說像類似這樣的案子站在主管機關角度你的看法如何但是因為你我早上已經說明了你居然講說我們希望你說不知道居然你都不知道然後問你 你就說去問各單位"},{"start":17168.787,"end":17192.343,"text":"這就是公共工程會主委兼政務委員對國人所討論非常久的採購案的態度一問三都知所以然後我問你你就來跟我吵架我問他主委那趙偉也站起來了我相信剛剛直播大家看見因為這個茶葉行大家都知道只有你不知道你說你不知道剛剛是你講你不知道沒有關係的態度就是這樣嘛那就這樣啦 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":17199.933,"end":17224.725,"text":"徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員尤昊 徐欣盈所提書面諮詢列入記錄並且刊登公報三 委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會及相關單位盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":17226.472,"end":17238.199,"text":"針對本次會議做以下決議討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本次會議結束現在散會謝謝辛苦"},{"start":17254.702,"end":17255.542,"text":"好,大家上桌"},{"start":17275.572,"end":17289.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17296.103,"end":17301.168,"text":"自己還說自己還說自己還說自己還說"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}