{"error":false,"id":["17179"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17179,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17179","日期":"2026-01-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-26-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-01-07T08:38:59+08:00","結束時間":"2026-01-07T17:27:00+08:00","影片長度":"08:48:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68521ca6625277982f4c1e4c0a96922c6a1081761262ea6c52f3c1e3cf5eaebf9d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n(一) 委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十一) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十四) 委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十五) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十七) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n(十八) 委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十九) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十一) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十二) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十三) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二十四) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n......(因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)\n【第一、三（四）及三（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查；第三（六）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【逐條討論】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:38:59 - 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請問會上次議事錄有無秋後遺落之處沒有 那我們議事錄確定那本次會議已成為審查及繼續審查身陷障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等33案那先做一下宣告為此聽於這樣的朋友們可以更加了解本次議案的審查過程那待會會有所有翻譯員畫面的轉播"},{"start":1748.106,"end":1771.466,"text":"那現在介紹初期的委員及列席的官員那我們第一位是林院級林委員再來是王振旭王委員謝謝衛福部政務次長呂健德社交署署長周道軍法規會參事陳信成統計處處長李秋彥"},{"start":1775.597,"end":1802.415,"text":"護理及健康照護師副市長陳清梅心理健康師副署長鄭淑欣還有保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫事師專門委員郭威中長期照顧師檢任計政白珊琪還有中央健保署醫務管理組組長黃佩珊國健署企劃組檢任計政劉巧清"},{"start":1804.688,"end":1831.869,"text":"還有司法院少年級家事廳法官郭耀明行政署長級懲戒廳法官何孝剛全序部專門委員蕭麗龍考選部重規師專門委員姚婉麗謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員陳淑萍一樣是對不起行政院人事行政總處重規處專門委員許孟志謝謝"},{"start":1835.868,"end":1856.223,"text":"還有編輯人力處專門委員曾永芳謝謝培訓考用處科長谷新橋謝謝內政部警察署國際組副組長林志俊警察署刑事警察局科長王家華謝謝國土署住宅發展組專門委員連偉耀謝謝"},{"start":1860.268,"end":1887.287,"text":"還有一樣是國路署建築管理組科長陳雅芳謝謝交通部公共運輸及監理師副市長廖錦智謝謝數位發展部數位政務師高級分析師王忠彥謝謝還有勞動部勞動發展署副署長石淑慧勞動力發展署先進障礙者及特定對象就業者副署長王雅芬勞動條件及救平等師市長王吉亞"},{"start":1890.055,"end":1903.538,"text":"總基礎專門委員鄭雅惠實業安全衛生署檢任基政葉佩潔經濟部經濟法治師專門委員林雨欣還有重規師專門委員劉玉蘭產業技術師專門委員陳俊維產化署科長林育淳"},{"start":1918.868,"end":1943.478,"text":"然後標準標檢局檢驗基準證乃源教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專門委員許文珍然後文化部重規師專門委員廖妮妮華國部參事汪蘭君監農監督管理局管理委員會延長局專門委員張曉平證券期貨局專門委員羅嘉怡"},{"start":1950.285,"end":1973.266,"text":"謝謝保險局副處長許文君國家通訊傳播委員會專門委員李文秀運動部設施規劃師副市長潘婉欣謝謝適應運動師副市長蔡忠義謝謝原住民社會福利處副處長洪玲"},{"start":1974.329,"end":1997.698,"text":"好 謝謝如果有遺漏之處再提醒 這應該是最多單位來的一次好林議員請委員要補充這個提案說明是不是等一下會有 對不起 等一下會有還有 現在請議事人員宣讀本次新增條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2000.191,"end":2026.977,"text":"身心障礙財權益保障法部分條文修正草案行政院委員范雲等十九人委員盧仙怡等十六人委員萬美玲等十七人委員林倩琦等十九人委員蔡奕宇等十六人委員李昆城等十九人提案現行法條文對照表行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第二條第一項第十四款倒數第二具為頓耗網路平台與通訊傳播傳輸內容無歧視等相關事宜之規劃第二項首具為前項以外之身心障礙權益保障事項"},{"start":2027.837,"end":2045.28,"text":"與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第二條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員范雲等十九人提案第二條第一項及第三項第一至八款與委員陳冠廷等二十人提案同第九款如下"},{"start":2046.241,"end":2067.768,"text":"法務主管機關身心障礙者犯罪被害人保護接受調查與羈押之司法禁用權受刑人更生保護與收容環境改善等相關權益之規劃推動及監督等事項第十二十七十八款如下十二文化主管機關身心障礙者文化參與權落實之規劃推動及監督等事項十七"},{"start":2068.368,"end":2085.721,"text":"司法主管機關身心障礙者禁用司法之規劃推動及監督等事項十八 休閒娛樂主管機關身心障礙者休閒生活之充實與娛樂活動參與之規劃推動及監督等事項保障障礙者平等禁用休閒娛樂設施服務與空間並促進其參與主流娛樂活動"},{"start":2089.344,"end":2115.292,"text":"因確保身心障礙兒童與同齡者平等享有上述權利第十四款增列後段如下並對於所蒐集個人資料進行無從識別特定個人之處理者處因於依個人資料保護法第八條及第九條規定告知用戶相關事項外並一併揭露其處理方式與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第二條與委員王玉敏等十七人提案同"},{"start":2116.152,"end":2131.557,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第三條與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等十九人提案第四條第六及第十款如下六身心障礙者保護業務之執行事項十其他直轄市縣市身心障礙福利服務權益保障之策劃及督導事項"},{"start":2133.257,"end":2153.632,"text":"與與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一至第五款及第七至第九款同委員范雲等十九人提案第五條序文如下本法所稱身心障礙者指下列各款身體系統構造或功能長期間歇或短暫有損傷影響其活動與充分平等參與社會生活經醫事社會工作特殊教育與職業輔導評量等相關專業人員組成之專業團體鑑定及評估領有身心障礙證明者與與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":2161.958,"end":2190.66,"text":"行政院委員蔡易瑜等十六人 委員李坤成等十九人提案第六條第一項第二句為縣市主管機關受理身心障礙者鑑定是申請時予以委員劉建國等十七人提案110121218號同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第六條第一項增列後段如下對於援助民族身心障礙者之鑑定應考量其語言文化特性並以其慣用語言進行必要時應由具援助民族文化敏感度之專業人員協助予以現行法同"},{"start":2191.761,"end":2208.681,"text":"行政院委員蔡易餘等16人委員李昆成等19人提案第7條與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第7條直轄市縣市主管機關因與取得衛生主管機關所核轉之身心障礙鑑定報告後"},{"start":2211.543,"end":2235.317,"text":"籌組專業團隊進行需求評估前項需求評估因應身心障礙者障礙類別程度家庭經濟狀況照顧服務需求家庭生活需求社會參與需求等因素為之直轄市縣市主管機關對於涉及於轄區內依前項評估合於規定者應核發身心障礙證明具以提供所需支付力及服務第一項評估作業的並同前條鑑定作業辦理有關評估作業與鑑定作業並同辦理事宜"},{"start":2239.379,"end":2254.851,"text":"評估專業團隊人員資格條件評估工具作業方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員范雲等19人提案第7條第4項莫具為由中央主管機關會同中央衛生主管機關定之予與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":2257.765,"end":2273.819,"text":"委員盧先生一等十六人提案第七條第二項增列後段如下對於原住民族身心障礙者之需求評估應考量其文化背景部落生活型態及地理環境特性評估專業團隊成員中應至少有一人具備原住民族文化敏感度"},{"start":2274.199,"end":2292.137,"text":"或首忍當地部落地區予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第7條與委員王玉明等17人提案同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第10條第一項第二句為身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表"},{"start":2292.637,"end":2311.273,"text":"於委員吳麗華等十八人提案第一項前段同第二項如下前項人員組成應符合下列規定一身心障礙者代表學者專家及民間相關機構團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一二身心障礙者代表及身心障礙者人數合計不得少於總數二分之一"},{"start":2312.073,"end":2340.464,"text":"並應兼顧各障礙類別之均衡三任意性別不得少於總數三分之一第三項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一二一八號第三項同第四項與委員吳麗華等十八人提案第四項同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第十條第一項倒數第二句首二字為辦理與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一項同第二三項與委員劉建國等十七人提案第二三項同第四項與委員何欣淳等十七人提案第四項同"},{"start":2341.204,"end":2368.861,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第10條 主管機關應與首長為召集人 臨聘派身心障礙者代表人權與身心障礙福利學者或專家與民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項副召集人由身心障礙者代表推選之前項之代表單一性別不得少於三分之一並應兼顧年齡族群等身份身心障礙者代表之人數不得少於成員總數二分之一"},{"start":2369.501,"end":2396.933,"text":"並應兼顧本法第五條第一項各款障礙類別之均衡第一項身心障礙者代表得採公開選舉推牌其公開選舉辦法由各級主管機關定之第一項小組成第一項小組委員任期委員任期以四年為一任藉其藉滿得依公開選舉機關續齡聘派為之但以連任一任為限會議至少每三個月定期開會一次主管機關應於第一項規定之會議提供必要事足之無障礙環境"},{"start":2397.893,"end":2426.802,"text":"程序資訊及個人協助手語聽答等服務及合理調整確保公開透明並於會議前公布議程會議後公開會議記錄 第一項權益保障事項包括一整合規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進身心障礙者權益保障強化人權等相關事宜二受理身心障礙者權益受損協調歧視認定調查事宜明定受理申訴機制由本人參與並邀請第三方專業人士列席"},{"start":2427.722,"end":2452.313,"text":"委員盧憲義等十六人提案第十條修正第一項第二句為身心障礙領域學者或專家與民間相關機構並於句末增列逗號且應包含原住民族身心障礙者代表至少一人予以現行法同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第十條第一項倒數第三句兒少身心障礙者及身心障礙者團體代表合計之比例予以委員王玉敏等十七人提案同"},{"start":2453.652,"end":2467.582,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案新增第10條之一機關構學校事業機構法輪候團體於訂定影響身心障礙者權益之政策法規或規章時應提供身心障礙者可禁用之資訊及表示意見之機會"},{"start":2468.823,"end":2486.898,"text":"委員蔡易宇等16人提案新增第10條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同委員范雲等19人提案新增第10條之二各目的事業主管及委外研究團隊擬定法規計畫與方案以及編列預決算時如涉及身心障礙者相關議題"},{"start":2487.959,"end":2509.034,"text":"應透過各種無障礙方式公開揭示並諮詢身心障礙者及其代表團體身心障礙者及其代表團體如任前項法規計畫方案欲決算涉及身心障礙者權利得向各事業主管機關要求被諮詢之權利委員萬美玲等17人提案新增第10條之一與委員王玉敏等17人提案同"},{"start":2509.594,"end":2528.685,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第11條各級政府應至少每3年舉辦身心障礙者之生活與經濟狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練休閒娛樂人力支持交通及福利等需求評估及服務調查研究應包括性別年齡各族原住民身份"},{"start":2529.085,"end":2547.454,"text":"各障別 各障礙程度居住都會區與原住民族地區等並應出版公布調查研究結果相關調查與公布方式應充分諮詢障礙者及障礙者團體行政院每五年辦理全國人口普查時應將身心障礙者人口調查納入普查項目"},{"start":2549.144,"end":2566.324,"text":"行政院委員蔡玉玉等十六人 委員李昆成等十九人提案與委員劉建國等十七人提案11011218號同行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第十六條身心障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障"},{"start":2567.284,"end":2584.074,"text":"對其接受教育應考僅用就業居住遷徙醫療等權益不得有歧視騷擾之對待公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備或享有權利機關構學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考僅用就業"},{"start":2585.195,"end":2601.597,"text":"醫療服務矯正措施或其他經中央主管機關公告之權益事項因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下經協商程序進行必要及適當之合理調整並建立身心障礙者申訴管道"},{"start":2602.137,"end":2621.392,"text":"於本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文實行之日起一年內中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應就前向合理調整適用範圍協商程序及申訴管道訂定指引並公告之機關構學校事業機構法輪廓團體應於前向指引公告之日起二年內"},{"start":2622.052,"end":2632.964,"text":"定定合理調整流程並公開揭示之機關構學校事業機構法人或團體因第一項禁止歧視或騷擾之規定自身損害與身心障礙者負賠償責任雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分"},{"start":2644.136,"end":2667.691,"text":"委員蔡宇等十六人提案第十六條第一項與委員吳麗華等十八人提案第一項同第二至第五項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第二至第五項同委員范雲等十九人提案第十六條身性障礙者之人格及合法權益應受尊重及保障對其接受教育應考禁用就業居住遷徙醫療體育運動政治參與休閒娛樂等權益不得有歧視之對待"},{"start":2671.593,"end":2687.441,"text":"其中包含對身心障礙者之家屬親友相關工作人員等關聯性歧視之禁止公共設施場所營運者因使身心障礙者得公平使用設施設備服務資訊通訊或享有權利公司立機關構團體學校與企業公開辦理各類考試"},{"start":2690.723,"end":2716.417,"text":"因應身心障礙應考個別障礙需求在考試公平原則下提供無障礙交通空間設施設備個人協助服務多元化適性協助以保障身心障礙者公平應考機會第一項所稱之歧視包括直接歧視間接歧視拒絕提供合理調整以及騷擾機關或事業機構法人或團體應歧視而使身心障礙者受有損害者應付"},{"start":2717.037,"end":2721.061,"text":"賠償責任雖非財產上之損害亦得請求賠償相當之金額其名譽被侵害者並得請求回復名譽之適當處分委員范雲等19人提案新增第16條之一機關購學校事業機構法人或團體辦理教育招考徵聘禁用就業醫療與健康照護服務"},{"start":2736.677,"end":2753.263,"text":"休閒娛樂體育活動政治參與文化生活矯正措施等權宜事項以及提供向公眾開放之設施或服務因應身心障礙者個別障礙需求與造成不成比例或過度負擔之情況下進行必要及適當之合理調整"},{"start":2754.043,"end":2779.519,"text":"身心障礙者與其權利之享有或行事因上述義務承擔之物理環境規定標準或做法而致顯著不利者得向義務承擔人提出合理調整要求該要求提出後義務承擔人應啟動對話就合理調整進行協商若義務承擔人認為合理調整措施造成不符比例或過度負擔而拒絕提供者需負舉證責任"},{"start":2781.448,"end":2796.788,"text":"因合理調整所深知成本由義務承擔人負擔政府應對義務承擔人提供經費與行政資源以確保障礙者之權利委員范雲等19人提案第20條為促進身心障礙輔具資源整合"},{"start":2797.168,"end":2812.28,"text":"研究發展及福利服務政策中央主管機關應整合各目的事業主管機關推動辦理身心障礙輔具資源整合研究發展及福利服務政策等相關事宜前項輔具福利服務政策應每三年檢討一次"},{"start":2812.7,"end":2832.527,"text":"由中央主管機關會同身心障礙者身心障礙福利學者輔具相關領域之專家學者民間相關機構團體代表等共同研商之其中具身心障礙身份不得少於二分之一第一項輔具資源整合研究發展及服務辦法應考量性別年齡族群文化等需求"},{"start":2833.107,"end":2848.396,"text":"未可進行可負擔性 並應提供輔具保養及維修補助 相關辦法由中央主管機關會同中央教育勞工科技研究事務經濟主管機關定之 行政院委員李昆城等19人提案第21條"},{"start":2849.397,"end":2864.767,"text":"向如下 前項保健服務追蹤服務 健康檢查項目與方式及其他相關事項之準則由中央衛生主管機關定之 予以委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同 委員蔡玉等16人提案第21條 予以委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同"},{"start":2869.85,"end":2887.49,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十一條第一四項如下中央衛生主管機關應規劃整合醫療資源提供身心障礙者健康維護生育保健及就近就醫之無障礙設施等以保障身心障礙者就醫之權利第一項身心障礙者就近就醫之服務"},{"start":2888.03,"end":2911.156,"text":"直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應擬定就醫環境無障礙改善辦法保障各級就醫環境第二三項與先行法同委員盧憲義等十六人提案第二十一條第一項增列後段如下針對援助民族地區及醫療資源不足地區應會同中央援助民族主管機關結合在地醫療院所或衛生所"},{"start":2911.976,"end":2937.196,"text":"規劃辦理到載巡迴醫療復健及遠距醫療服務予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第21條與委員王玉敏等17人提案同委員范雲等19人提案第22條第二句如下依身心障礙者個別需求提供到載或外出就醫之保健醫療服務予以現行法同委員范雲等19人提案第23條第一三項與現行法同第二項與臺灣民眾黨黨團同"},{"start":2940.458,"end":2967.46,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十五條第一三項與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一四項同第二項如下前項身心障礙者就近就醫之服務為確保其醫療服務可進行由直轄市縣市主管衛生機關訂定就醫環境無障礙之輔導辦法並具以推動社區型各級醫療機構就醫環境之改善及強化都會區援助民族地區及偏遠地區巡迴醫療車之配置與服務"},{"start":2968.26,"end":2985.099,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第26條第一項與先行法第一項同第二項如下前項補助之對象項目金額及其他相關事項之辦法由中央衛生主管機關定之委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第26條與委員劉建國等十七人提案11011218號同"},{"start":2987.421,"end":3012.557,"text":"委員范雲等十九人提案第二十六條第一項與先行法第一項同第二項如下前項不出辦法應注意可敬性及可負擔性由中央衛生主管機關會同中央主管機關定之委員萬美玲等十七人提案第二十六條與委員王玉敏等十七人提案同委員范雲等十九人提案第二十七條第二項莫具如下無提供個人協助服務或其他理由拒絕其入選"},{"start":3013.257,"end":3037.69,"text":"第四項第二句如下於到校就學期間含課後及含暑假輔導班第六項如下為保障身心障礙學生參與校外教學活動各級教育主管機關應主動提供無障礙交通方式人力支持服務無障礙教學環境含住宿以維護其受教育之權益予以臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等19人提案第28條"},{"start":3038.59,"end":3067.544,"text":"各級教育主管機關應主動協助身心障礙者就學並應主動協助正在接受醫療 社政等相關單位服務無法外出就學及偏鄉之身心障礙學齡者解決其教育相關問題委員范雲等19人提案第30條各級教育主管機關辦理身心障礙者教育及入學考試時應依其障礙類別程度學習及生活需要提供各項必須之專業人員個人協助服務無障礙格式教材資訊"},{"start":3068.504,"end":3069.565,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第30條之一"},{"start":3086.736,"end":3099.048,"text":"與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同委員范雲等19人提案第30條之二第二項如下前項所稱數位格式由中央教育主管機關與身心障礙者及身心障礙團體與相關專業團體言相定定之與臺灣民眾黨黨團提案同"},{"start":3107.153,"end":3135.116,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第31條同委員吳麗華等18人提案委員范雲等19人提案第32條身心障礙者繼續接受高級中等以上學校之教育各級教育主管機關應與講助其講助辦法由中央教育主管機關定之前向學校提供身心障礙者無障礙設施得向中央教育主管機關申請補助委員范雲等19人提案第33條同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條"},{"start":3137.745,"end":3157.371,"text":"行政院提案第38條第3項第6行每月末日每月一日改為每月末日第4項第2行及第6行基本工資改為最低工資第8項及第9項"},{"start":3160.352,"end":3187.084,"text":"第二行增列機關刮鬍單位其餘同線刑法委員蔡瑜等16人提案第38條 委員李昆城等19人提案第38條與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第38條之2與委員王玉敏等17人提案38條之2同委員范雲等19人提案第39條之1與委員吳麗華等18人提案第39條之1同"},{"start":3190.649,"end":3215.578,"text":"行政院提案第40條第1項第5行改為基本工資改為最低工資與同線刑法委員蔡瑜等16人提案及委員李昆城的19人提案第40條同行政院提案委員林倩琦等19人提案第40條之1與委員洪孟凱40條之1同行政院提案第42條"},{"start":3219.11,"end":3237.248,"text":"第二項第三行基本工資改為最低工資第三項第五行比率頓耗方式及其他相關事項修正予以現行法同委員李 蔡宇等16人提案第42條及委員李 昆城等19人提案第42條與行政院提案第42條同"},{"start":3246.502,"end":3273.638,"text":"行政院提案第43條及委員蔡宇宇等16人提案第43條及委員李昆城等19人提案第43條與委員吳麗華等18人提案43條同行政院提案第44條及委員蔡宇宇等16人提案第44條及委員李昆城等19人提案第44條同委員吳麗華等18人提案"},{"start":3275.666,"end":3303.394,"text":"行政院提案第46條原憲刑法第一項及第六項刪除令第修正第三項改為第二項前項輔導與補助之對象及第四項修正為第四行修正為按摩工作分號原句號改為分號 其餘同憲刑法"},{"start":3304.537,"end":3328.9,"text":"委員蔡宇等16人提案第46條及委員李昆城等19人提案第46條與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第4章之1章名同委員王玉敏等17人提案第4章之1章名委員萬美玲等17人提案第4條之1與委員王玉敏等17人提案第47條之1同"},{"start":3333.994,"end":3359.389,"text":"委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之2與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之2同委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之3與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之3同委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之4與委員王玉明等17人提案第47條之4同"},{"start":3361.414,"end":3389.042,"text":"委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四七條之五與委員王韻敏等十七人提案第四七條之五同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四章之二章名同委員王韻敏等十七人提案第四章之二章名委員范雲等十九人提案第五十條之二將委員范雲等十七條"},{"start":3390.683,"end":3415.305,"text":"等十七人提案第四十七條之五第三項修正主動第二行主動兩個字刪除第四項第二行金額兩個字刪除予以委員范雲等十七人提案第四十七條之五同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第四十七條之六與委員王一鳴等十七人提案第四十七條之六同"},{"start":3418.564,"end":3439.794,"text":"委員萬美玲等17人提案第47條之7與委員王玉敏等17人提案第47條之7同委員范雲等19人提案第49條第二項第三行增列及居住第4個字予以現行法同委員盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3442.214,"end":3461.631,"text":"第二項前項服務與援助民族地區因結合部落文化特色及在地照顧資源並優先禁用具援助民族與能力之服務人員以促進援助民族身心障礙者與部落內自立生活予以現行法同文範雲等19人提案第50條"},{"start":3463.837,"end":3490.3,"text":"增列第十款同儕支持服務並遞於原第十款改為第十一款同時增列第二項前項服務之提供應尊重身心障礙者之意願及選擇選擇適合其個別需求之服務模式直銷室縣市主管機關不得以任何理由限制身心障礙者選擇服務之權利予以現行法通行政院提案第五十條之一"},{"start":3491.492,"end":3500.753,"text":"為保障身心障礙者自立生活及融入社區直轄市縣市主管機關辦理前條第九款規定之自立生活支持服務應結合社會福利醫療長期照顧"},{"start":3501.69,"end":3526.067,"text":"交通教育就業住宅輔具無障礙環境等各項支持服務資源提供協助身心障礙者依需求評估結果使用自立生活支持服務應由專業人員協助其擬定自立生活計畫其社會參與及活動支持所需之人力得由個人助理協助之下是縣市主管機關應籌組專業團隊審查前項自立生活計畫"},{"start":3527.328,"end":3556.417,"text":"並提供身心障礙者表示意見之機會前項專業團隊成員應包含行政機關代表身心障礙者代表專家學者或身心障礙團體代表委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第50條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號提案第50條之一同委員李坤誠等16人提案第50條之一與行政院提案同"},{"start":3558.393,"end":3582.535,"text":"文範雲等19人提案除修正第1項第1行未使身心障礙者及第6行可用性改頓耗可負擔性予以吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案第51條除第2項修改為"},{"start":3583.73,"end":3612.38,"text":"據首修改為第50條予以現行法同委員蔡宇等16人提案第51條及委員李昆城等19人提案第51條與行政院提案同委員范雲等19人提案第52條修正第7款增列輔具遁號及第二項第三行增列遁號電影集串流平台第6行"},{"start":3613.929,"end":3641.056,"text":"改分號針對視覺功能障礙者因依其需求提供口述影像服務並增列第四項中央目的事業主管機關補助電影電視節目及其他視聽著作之製作因明定製作口述影像之一定比例並逐年提升之第五項手續改為前二項予以現行法同行政院提案第52條之一"},{"start":3644.246,"end":3671.031,"text":"增列第一項各級主管機關的部分及第三項前項獎勵內容均與委員羅廷偉等16人提案同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第52條之一及委員李昆城等19人提案第52條之一均與行政院提案同"},{"start":3671.806,"end":3696.505,"text":"行政院提案第52條之二各級政府與其附屬機關構學校公營事業與政府捐助之財團法人所建置之網站及行動化應用軟體應通過無障礙檢測並取得認證標章一定規模以上之醫院金融機構之網站一同前項網站與行動化應用軟體之檢測標準方式頻率及認證標章核發之辦法"},{"start":3697.526,"end":3714.999,"text":"由中央目的事業主管機關定制第一項制一定規模由中央各目的事業主管機關定制委員李昆成等19人提案第52條之二與行政院提案同委員萬美玲等17人提案第52條之二與委員王玉敏等17人提案第52條之二同"},{"start":3723.018,"end":3738.968,"text":"委員蔡奕宇等16人提案第53條與委員劉建國等10件提案10121218號提案同委員盧憲一等16人提案第53條增列第二項"},{"start":3740.824,"end":3768.17,"text":"針對原住民族地區及偏遠地區因地理環境限制無法普及大眾運輸工具者交通主管機關因專案規劃具無障礙設備之替代性運輸服務並針對原住民族身心障礙者提供優先預約或費用補貼予以現行法同文範雲等19人提案第53條第二項第二行"},{"start":3768.837,"end":3789.614,"text":"增列因提替代改善方案或合理調整第七行增列若人有困難應負舉證責任後不適用前項規定第五項第二行增列及服務與資訊提供方式與現行法同行政院提案第54條及"},{"start":3793.396,"end":3814.266,"text":"委員李坤澄等19人提案第54條與委員林月琴等18人提案第54條同行政院提案第57條委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第57條及委員李坤澄等19人提案第57條與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":3822.145,"end":3847.123,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第57條第3項第8行增列具舉證後4個字語與現行法同行政院提案第58條修正末項第5項前4項優待之實施方式內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":3849.487,"end":3877.657,"text":"與委員劉建國等17人提案第101218號同第58條同委員蔡依儀等16人提案與委員劉建國等17人提案第101218號提案同委員李昆城等19人提案與行政院提案同行政院提案第58條之一及委員蔡依儀等16人提案第58條之一及委員"},{"start":3878.658,"end":3908.116,"text":"李昆城等19人提案58條之一與委員羅美玲等16人提案第58條之一同行政院提案第61條及委員蔡易餘等16人提案第61條李昆城等19人提案61條均與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案同文盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3910.27,"end":3934.296,"text":"第二項第四行增列直轄市縣市主管機關應建立手語翻譯及同步聽打之視訊遠距服務機制以協助原住民族地區或偏遠地區之聽覺或言語功能障礙者服務提供者應接受多元文化訓練並培育具備原住民族語能力之手語翻譯及聽打服務人員予以現行法同"},{"start":3937.028,"end":3953.982,"text":"委員范雲等19人提案第61條第一項第二行增列及同步聽打第四行增列及其他因障礙而有資訊傳遞之內容予以現行法同行政院提案第63條"},{"start":3956.158,"end":3967.608,"text":"委員蔡奕宇等16人提案第63條及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條均與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案同委員盧憲一等16人提案"},{"start":3972.116,"end":3989.504,"text":"增列第二項增列第三款與原住民族地區設立配合中央主管機關推動部落在地照顧政策且規模符合中央主管機關公告之標準者欲現行法同行政院提案第63條之一"},{"start":3993.052,"end":4018.05,"text":"委員蔡玉等16人提案第63條之一及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條之一均與委員吳麗華等18人提案第63條之一同委員萬美玲等17人提案第63條之一與委員王玉敏等17人提案第63條之一提案同行政院提案第63條之二"},{"start":4023.257,"end":4044.153,"text":"第二項修正前項一定期間與第三款情形為自確定之日期五年於第一款第二款或第四款情形由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年與委員劉建博等17人提案101218號提案同"},{"start":4046.417,"end":4067.325,"text":"文蔡宇等16人提案第63條之二與委員劉建國等17人提案第1011218號提案第63條之二提案同文理昆城等19人提案同行政院提案第63條之二行政院提案第63條之三"},{"start":4070.922,"end":4097.616,"text":"除第三項修正前項一定期間於前條第一項第三款情形為自確定之日起五年於該項第一款第二款或第四款情形由主管機關審酌情節嚴重程度認定一年至十年於第一項第二項與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案通文蔡與等16人提案第63條之三與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之三"},{"start":4101.049,"end":4106.499,"text":"101218號提案通維尼昆城的19人提案第63條之3與行政院提案通"},{"start":4113.464,"end":4128.947,"text":"行政院提案第63條之四第二項修正前項主任有傷害身心障礙者之餘之原因消失後金主管機關認定得執行職務者仍得依本法規定擔任身心障礙福利機構之院長主任及工作人員"},{"start":4131.009,"end":4150.57,"text":"與委員劉建國等17人提案第1101218號提案第63條之4同文釵宇等16人提案第63條之4與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之4同委員李昆城等19人提案第63條之4與行政院提案同行政院提案第63條之5"},{"start":4154.266,"end":4163.452,"text":"委員蔡玉等16人提案第63條之5委員李昆城等19人提案第63條之5與委員劉建國等17人提案101218號提案第63條之5同行政院提案第63條之6"},{"start":4172.737,"end":4194.977,"text":"除第4行修正第1項第1款第2款第4款第7行增列原因後面增列是否消失是否兩個字與委員劉建國等17人提案第63條之6101218號提案同文蔡玉等16人提案第63條之6"},{"start":4202.341,"end":4218.974,"text":"除第7行少掉是否兩個字與行政院提案同文理昆城等19人提案第63條之6與行政院提案同行政院提案第63條之7"},{"start":4222.028,"end":4239.022,"text":"增列第三項 主管機關對身心障礙福利機構聘僱院長主任亦應主動查證有無第一項規定形式外 予以委員劉建國等17人10121218號提案第63條之7提案同"},{"start":4240.31,"end":4254.209,"text":"文蔡宇等16人提案及委員李昆成等19人提案第63條之7均與行政院提案同文萬美玲等17人提案第63條之6與委員王玉明等17人提案第63條之6提案同"},{"start":4256.252,"end":4275.542,"text":"行政院委員蔡宇等十六人委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十一條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一二一八號同委員范雲等十九人提案第七十一條第一項倒數第二句為提供下列經費補助或實務補助第五九十款如下五個人協助服務費用補助"},{"start":4275.942,"end":4305.021,"text":"九 生理用品補助 十 其他必要之救助及服務 六 七 八款同現行 五 六 七款予以現行法同 委員盧縣議等十六人提案第七十一條第二項增列後段如下 但前項第五款之補助對於居住於原住民族地區或離島地區之身心障礙者 應額外提供或補助輔具評估 適配運送及維修所需之交通運費 必要時指轄市縣市主管機關應提供定期到宅巡迴維護"},{"start":4306.923,"end":4321.062,"text":"維修服務予以現行法同委員萬美玲等十七人提案第七十一條與委員王育敏等十七人提案同行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第七十四條第一項莫具如下亦不得有與事實不符或誤導"},{"start":4322.344,"end":4340.992,"text":"或誤導閱聽人對身心障礙者及其家屬產生歧視或偏見第二項首二句如下身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件未經法院判決確定其原因前第三項如下任何人對身心障礙者不得公開為歧視之言行與委員劉建國等17人提案110121218號同"},{"start":4344.676,"end":4350.062,"text":"委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第74條第1 2項與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號第1 2項同第3項與院版第3項同委員范雲等19人提案第74條宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導"},{"start":4363.977,"end":4376.409,"text":"或播送與身心障礙者或疑似身心障礙者相關內容時不得使用歧視性之稱呼或描述並不得由於事實不符或誤導閱聽人對身心障礙者及其家屬相關人員產生歧視或偏見之報導身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件"},{"start":4382.094,"end":4397.027,"text":"未經法院判決確定其發生原因可歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況宣傳品出版品廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體與報導不得歸因於當事人之疾病或其身心狀況身心障礙狀況委員盧憲一等16人提案第74條"},{"start":4402.202,"end":4427.742,"text":"第一項據莫增列下列文字 逗號亦不得將其障礙成因與其族群文化宗教或性別等特徵進行無科學根據之負面連結或標籤化對於原住民族身心障礙者之新聞報導應尊重其文化慣俗及隱私身心障礙者涉及相關法律事件未經法院判決確定其發生原因可歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況"},{"start":4429.063,"end":4453.528,"text":"傳播媒體不得將事件發生原因歸咎於當事人之疾病或其身心障礙狀況予以現行法同委員萬美玲等17人提案第74條與委員王玉敏等17人提案同行政院委員李昆城等19人提案第76條第4項首據為身心障礙福利機構發現其所收容安置之身心障礙者遭受前條各款情形之一者"},{"start":4454.048,"end":4474.729,"text":"第六項如下第一項第二項第四項與前項通報流程後續處理及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之與委員劉建國等十七人一一零一二一八號同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第七十六條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同"},{"start":4475.33,"end":4489.779,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第77條第一項第二款如下二遭受第75條各款情形之一予以委員蔡易瑜等16人提案同委員蔡易瑜等16人提案第77條第二項第二句默四字為前項保護予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":4497.103,"end":4512.194,"text":"行政院委員蔡易餘等十六人 委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十八條刪除行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第七十九條第四項如下第一項費用由直轄市縣市主管機關先行墊付者得減拒費用單據"},{"start":4513.295,"end":4536.024,"text":"銀本計算書及前項負擔義務人得申請減輕或免除負擔之程序相關規定以書面行政處分通知義務人於六十日內返還與委員蔡易宇等十六人提案同委員蔡易宇等十六人提案第七十九條第一二四項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一二三項同"},{"start":4537.864,"end":4566.762,"text":"第三項如下直轄市縣市主管機關認定前項各款情形鮮有困難者應邀集學者專家及機構法人或團體代表審查之行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第八十條第一項第一句如下第七十七條第一項之緊急安置予與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡易餘等十六人提案第八十條與委員劉建國等十七人提案"},{"start":4568.903,"end":4593.538,"text":"11011218號同委員范雲等19人提案第84條法院檢查機關或檢查機關於訴訟或偵查程序實施過程身心障礙者射送或需作證或接受調查時應確保其獲得平等的權利和機會促進其全面參與法律程序就其障礙類別之特別需要提供必要之協助一法律程序及設施設備的無障礙"},{"start":4595.539,"end":4616.315,"text":"確保所有司法程序對身心障礙者無障礙並包括提供無障礙的法庭設施設備和通道二 資訊的無障礙提供身心障礙者所需的法律資訊包括簡易閱讀的法律文件手語翻譯和其他輔助工具以幫助他們理解法律程序三 法律援助的可及性"},{"start":4617.055,"end":4645.855,"text":"擴大法律援助的範圍確保身心障礙者能夠輕易取得法律諮詢和支援並提供專業的法律服務四 訴訟程序的調整在訴訟過程中考慮身心障礙者的特殊需求並根據其情況調整程序以保障其參與權五 司法人員的培訓對司法人員進行專業培訓提高他們對身心障礙者需求的理解與敏感度六 建立申訴制度建立專門的申訴制度"},{"start":4647.796,"end":4664.196,"text":"建立專門的申訴機制讓身心障礙者在遇到司法困難時能夠有效反應問題並獲得幫助七 監測與評估建立監測機制定期評估司法系統對身心障礙者的服務效果並根據評估結果進行改善"},{"start":4664.856,"end":4683.601,"text":"刑事被告或犯罪嫌疑人因精神障礙或其他薪資缺陷無法為完全之陳述時直轄市縣市主管機關得依刑事訴訟法第35條規定申請法院同意指派社會工作人員擔任輔佐人精神障礙或智能障礙者涉及本刑三年以上之罪時"},{"start":4684.941,"end":4699.524,"text":"警察詢問及檢察官詢問應有律師陪同依刑事訴訟法第35條第一項規定得為輔佐人之人未能擔任輔佐人時社會福利機構團體得依前項規定向直轄市縣市主管機關提出指派申請"},{"start":4700.765,"end":4727.599,"text":"為確保身心障礙者平等禁用司法第一項機關所屬司法及警察人員應定期接受包含身心障礙權利與障礙意識等相關訓練第一項前項程序調整及必要協助措施之辦法應廣泛徵詢身心障礙者及其代表團體之意見後由行政院會同司法院定之委員范雲等19人提案新增第84條之一行政機關與身心障礙者所涉"},{"start":4728.419,"end":4752.906,"text":"所涉各類行政程序受理身心障礙者之訴願或其他對行政處分聲明不符之救濟程序時因究其障礙類別之特別需要提供必要之協助委員范雲等19人提案第85條與委員范雲等17人提案同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第86條第三項文字罰還後面文字如下並得沒入同條項"},{"start":4754.646,"end":4781.336,"text":"規定之物品令其限其移除內容下架或其他必要之處置藉其為旅行者按次處罰第五項倒數第三句如下為行為人或負責人所屬公司予以委員蔡易餘等16人提案同委員蔡易餘等16人提案第86條第三項文字第74條後面增列文字第一項或第二項予以委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同"},{"start":4784.915,"end":4799.519,"text":"行政院委員李坤澄等19人提案第88條第一項倒數第5據為案次處罰至其改善完成為止與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同委員蔡玉宇等16人提案第88條與委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同"},{"start":4804.881,"end":4822.55,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第八十九條第一項與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號第一項同第二至第四項與現行法同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第八十九條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同"},{"start":4823.51,"end":4848.477,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第89條之一與委員劉建國等17人提案第85條之一11011218號同行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第89條之二身心障礙福利機構違反第63條之七第一項規定者處心臺幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並令其限期改善藉其為改善者按次處罰"},{"start":4849.577,"end":4875.707,"text":"委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第八十九條之二 與委員劉建國等十七人提案第八十九條之一 1101218號同行政院委員李昆城等十九人提案第九十條第二項續文莫具為案次處罰 與委員劉建國等十七人提案 1101218號同第九十條委員蔡依瑜等十六人提案第九十條 與委員劉建國等十七人提案 1101218號同"},{"start":4878.208,"end":4904.354,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等十九人提案第九十二條第一項及第五項莫具為並按次處罰與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同委員蔡易瑜等十六人提案第九十二條與委員劉建國等十七人提案一一零一一二一八號同第九十三條第一項續文第三具為應令其限期改善第二及第三款如下"},{"start":4905.074,"end":4921.347,"text":"二違反依第六十二條第三項所定標準中有關規模業務範圍設施或人員配置之規定三財產總額已無法達成目的事業之營運或對於業務財務為不實之呈報予以現行法第一項同第二項如下"},{"start":4922.128,"end":4948.46,"text":"前項評鑒連續二次為冰燈以下者處新臺幣五萬元以上二十五萬元以下罰款及廢止其設立許可不適用前項規定並應令負責人於一個月內對於其收容之全部身心障礙者予以轉介安置其無法辦理時由主管機關協助之負責人應與配合不予配合者處新臺幣二十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款並強制實施轉介安置"},{"start":4949.64,"end":4965.095,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等19人委員蔡易宇等16人提案第94條與委員劉建國等17人提案11011218號同行政院委員蔡易宇等16人委員李坤成等19人提案第98條與委員吳麗華等18人提案同"},{"start":4969.099,"end":4985.471,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案新增第100條之一機關購學校事業機構法人或團體位移第16條第3項規定辦理合理調整之協商程序者應令其限期改善藉其為改善者處心台幣1萬元以上5萬元以下罰還"},{"start":4987.452,"end":5006.966,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等19人提案第107條第4項如下本法中華民國全年 全月 全日修正之第100條之一自公布後3年施行予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同委員蔡易宇等16人提案第107條予以委員劉建國等17人提案1101218號同繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":5017.293,"end":5034.634,"text":"修正動議第二案委員吳麗華提案修正第五條本法所稱身心障礙者包括但不限於肢體精神智力或感官感官損傷者其損傷與他人或環境相互作用可能阻礙身心障礙者平等充分有效參與社會"},{"start":5037.247,"end":5061.621,"text":"提案人委員林月琴 王振旭 劉建國 吳麗華修正綜藝第三案第六條第二項改為身心障礙鑑定制度得依需要予以申請公作為特定社會福利與經濟給付如現金補助 付稅減免 定額禁用等資格判定之用不得以未領有身心障礙證明為由"},{"start":5062.902,"end":5078.757,"text":"排除申請人取得其他權益或服務之資格鑑定因採多面向評估方式包括身心功能表現活動參與限制及環境因素之評估並得參照國際健康功能與身心障礙分類 等國際準則辦理"},{"start":5082.628,"end":5106.895,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關受理申請鑑定時應交由衛生主管機關指定相關機構或專業團隊進行並於鑑定完成後10日內送達報告衛生主管機關應於10日內核轉該報告與直轄市縣市主管機關辦理予與行政院提案同提案委員 林岳請王振旭 劉建國 吳立華"},{"start":5110.191,"end":5112.706,"text":"修正綜藝第四案第七條"},{"start":5115.751,"end":5142.131,"text":"中央主管機關應建立身心障礙者需求評估制度作為服務資源分配之依據直轄市縣市主管機關對涉及於其轄區經醫評估制度審核符合規定者應核發身心障礙證明並具以提供所需福利與服務前向需求評估因應身心障礙者障礙類別程度經濟狀況經濟情況服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等因素為之"},{"start":5143.973,"end":5172.98,"text":"有關需求評估之標準工具程序及專業人員資格由專屬管機關會同中央衛生主管機關定之未領有身心障礙證明者申請職務在設計個人助理或其他基於其障礙需求所必要之服務時服務提供單位或直轄市縣市主管機關得依現場觀察申請人提供之資料或專業意見以簡化程序評估其需求並提供必要之協助避免服務中斷或"},{"start":5174,"end":5193.353,"text":"产生制度障碍前项相关申请与评估程序之认定方式服务类型与适用原则由中央主管机关以执法定之其研拟过程因邀请身心障碍者及其代表性组织参与提案委员林月请王振旭 刘建国 吴丽华"},{"start":5199.099,"end":5210.465,"text":"修正綜藝第五案第三項第一款列為社會福利主管機關身心障礙者人格維護及權益保障"},{"start":5212.062,"end":5230.958,"text":"第二款 第三行 增列與醫療及生活輔具第四款 第四行 增列頓耗禁止職業歧視第五款 第三行 增列及其所屬空間場域第六款 第三行"},{"start":5232.279,"end":5259.549,"text":"增列無障礙交通設施及運輸服務第八款第三行增列頓耗金融服務系統無障礙設施及優化第九款第三行更生保護頓耗收容環境改善頓耗輔助提供與司法偵查期間輔助資源禁用第十款第三行增列及司法偵查程序進行中輔助資源禁用"},{"start":5260.689,"end":5263.439,"text":"第十二款第三行針列頓耗"},{"start":5266.021,"end":5293.877,"text":"第16款第二行增列頓耗遊戲場國家標準定第4項增列前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依職權規劃辦理第5項前項所稱保障之事項應由本法中央主管機關定期召開跨機關政策協調會議與現行法同提案委員林月琴王正"},{"start":5294.797,"end":5320.443,"text":"連署人王振旭劉建國修正動議第六案第十條主管機關應以首長為召集人聆聘派身心障礙者包括兒童或少年代表身心障礙領域學者專家民間相關機構團體代表及各目的事業主管機關代表辦理身心障礙者權益保障事項其成員任意性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":5321.463,"end":5350.78,"text":"前項身心障礙者代表學者專家民間相關機關及團體代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一其中具身心障礙者身份之人數不得少於二分之一並因兼顧各障礙類別之均衡第四項第二行增加頓號成員聆聘派程序與現行法同提案委員林月琴連署委員王振旭劉建國修正動議第七案"},{"start":5354.744,"end":5375.232,"text":"第十一條各級政府應至少每三年舉辦各障別各障礙程度居住都會區與原住民族地區各族原住民族身份之身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療輔助科技特殊教育就業訓練交通及福利支持人力長期照顧經濟安全等需求評估及"},{"start":5376.172,"end":5403.723,"text":"服務調查研究並出版公布調查研究結果予以現行法同提案委員林月琴聯署委員王振旭劉建國第八案增列第三項各目的事業主管機關應鼓勵輔導規劃或自行辦理身心障礙者適當之休閒娛樂及文化活動主動檢視且提供身心障礙者合適之活動空間並保障身心障礙者有平等參與活動之權利"},{"start":5406.745,"end":5434.284,"text":"第四項機關購學校事業單位法人或團體公開辦理教育招考禁用就業醫療居住矯正等權益事項因醫生性障礙者個別障礙需求與不造成不成比例或過度負擔這情況下進行必要之適當合理調整專案各目的事業主管機關應與本條文修正公布後一年內公告前項合理調整適用範圍協商程序及救濟管道之指引"},{"start":5435.744,"end":5454.129,"text":"機關構學校事業機構法人或團體因依前項指引公告後兩年內定定合理調整流程且公開揭示之欲現行法同提案委員林月請連署委員王振旭劉建國修正動議第九案第48條之一"},{"start":5457.523,"end":5479.123,"text":"第一項第三行增列日常生活第二項第四行增列會同中央目的事業主管機關及身心障礙者團體及身心障礙者代表參與第三項第二行增列主管機關應尊重身心障礙者之意願予以現行法同提案委員林月琴連署委員王振旭劉建國"},{"start":5482.833,"end":5497.191,"text":"修正動議第十案第五十條增列第十款輔具服務並第一原第十款改為第十一款同時增列第二項中央主管機關因結合社會福利醫療長期照顧交通教育"},{"start":5498.012,"end":5516.311,"text":"就業住宅 輔具 無障礙環境等各項支持服務資源制定自立生活支持服務指引為各級及各目的事業主管機關辦理本條第一項規定事項所依循提案委員林月琴 連署委員王振旭 劉建國修正動議第11案第52條"},{"start":5521.551,"end":5549.173,"text":"修正增列第三款資訊及通訊傳播第九款為住宅服務第三項改為第一項第三款所稱資訊及通訊傳播第三行增列遁號電腦及智慧型行動裝置第七行增列遁號聯絡遁號口述影像"},{"start":5552.116,"end":5574.256,"text":"予以現行法同題案委員 寧願請聯署委員王振旭 劉建國宣讀完畢好 有關於本次會議各項資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在要我們現在要請這個首與歡迎員還有同步的聽導員來就位了所以我們先休息無人中 好 謝謝"},{"start":5576.812,"end":5598.044,"text":"修正動議跟附帶決議附帶決議四案修正動議這是一案而已這麼厚的一案修正動議是很多條但是一個案子沒問題沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":6193.527,"end":6214.413,"text":"好 休息時間到 我們繼續開會現在來介紹本會會議的首尾歡迎員及同步聽打員那我們第一位是首議員李振輝先生好 謝謝你這樣會讓人家嚇到第二位是邱香菱小姐"},{"start":6215.367,"end":6244.661,"text":"好謝謝然後第三位是張慈珊小姐好謝謝好那第四位是沃哲文先生好謝謝這是手打員手藝員對不起然後接下來是這個聽打員是謝建斌先生在打字OK好謝謝謝謝再來是謝怡萱小姐在打字好"},{"start":6245.273,"end":6261.228,"text":"再來是陳靜佳 田達源再來是游漁益先生再來是黃之琳小姐最後一位是葉惠慈小姐 謝謝"},{"start":6264.994,"end":6277.359,"text":"好 我們現在再處理 本次交互之提案僅進行提案說明 不另做這個選擇那現在請新增提案的委員來說明提案料子每位委員兩分鐘 第一位我們請換雲 換委員來做說明"},{"start":6285.102,"end":6312.844,"text":"感謝昭緯今天的安排那三年前障礙者團體們組成障礙者黑紙革命聯盟提出身心障礙者權益保障法的修法的時候我就跟夥伴們一起合作提出了民間版的草案那上一屆我們一度在未還委員會進入實質審查但很可惜沒有完成那這一屆因為屆期不連續又重新來過那今天要再次感謝劉建國昭緯的排審"},{"start":6314.165,"end":6331.541,"text":"去年選舉我認識了陳俊翰律師之後很多次跟他在同台的場合常常跟他聊到他的國際經驗跟台灣的處境那我非常記得他說在台灣身心障礙者的權益就像在第三世界國家"},{"start":6332.482,"end":6354.915,"text":"那後來很遺憾他離開了也確立了我在這一屆的立法院內一定要努力完成他的遺願的決心所以呢我在這一屆的立委任期的第一次總質詢就是問院長帳權法那謝謝院長的承諾那我成立的為下一代而戰連線也把帳權法列為優先法案那很高興今天有實質審查"},{"start":6355.876,"end":6370.816,"text":"我想今天最重要的是我們要跟上CRDP的國際公約要落實由障礙者本人自己做決定的精神我的版本重點就是有障礙者參與決策提升比例建立障礙者諮詢機制"},{"start":6371.877,"end":6392.325,"text":"明定禁止直接或間接歧視提升障礙者權利保障受教育就業文化參與就就近就醫公平審判司法禁用還有很重要的落實自立生活納入服務的可靜性可負擔性原則那今天待會的審查那我希望大家可以支持我的版本以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝換委員接下來請林倩熙委員來做提案說明"},{"start":6409.05,"end":6427.341,"text":"謝謝主席 各位夥伴大家好本席在提出身心障礙權益保障法的增訂40條之一的修正草案目的最主要是在補足我們長期忽略的一個關鍵制度的缺口也就是身心障礙者在職場中的一個資訊禁用權"},{"start":6429.042,"end":6448.055,"text":"那麼隨著資通科技快速的這個發展那麼政府機關跟公營事業大量仰賴資通系統來處理公務那麼科技應用已經成為衡量工作表現的一個重要的條件那麼現行的法制呢雖然要求一定的比例來禁用身心障礙者"},{"start":6448.755,"end":6464.262,"text":"但沒有同步要求職場資通系統具備無障礙的設計導致許多身心障礙者進入職場之後因為系統的不友善沒有辦法充分發揮工作能力甚至喪失就業機會"},{"start":6465.943,"end":6479.959,"text":"聯合國身心障礙權利公約已經在我國具有一些法律的效力那麼在27條也明確的要求國家保障身心障礙者在平等基礎上享有公平且良好的工作條件"},{"start":6480.7,"end":6496.777,"text":"但是我們目前沒有在就業環境的資通無障礙這個部分做比較詳盡的一些設計所以來建立明確的法律義務也沒有完全落實公約所揭示之平等工作權的保障意旨"},{"start":6497.915,"end":6520.008,"text":"因此這個本案在增訂事實條之一明定各級機關政府機關還有公立學校及公營事業機構要提供身心障礙者執行業務所需之友善之通系統讓身心障礙者不是只有被禁用而是能夠真正在制度的支持下來參與成長並貢獻專業"},{"start":6523.61,"end":6538.327,"text":"以上的說明 希望各位同仁能夠支持讓這項促進平等就業資通訊禁用的人權保障制度得以落實謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林委員的提案說明接下來請林越請委員來做提案說明"},{"start":6553.925,"end":6557.147,"text":"林月琴委員請做提案說明謝謝合作"},{"start":6568.955,"end":6586.483,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安首先先謝謝昭偉今天安排生權法的逐條審查更要謝謝在這一路上不斷給予我建議想法跟我討論的身障朋友跟身障團體我們一起為身障權益努力"},{"start":6587.103,"end":6615.279,"text":"身權法已經多年沒有大修從我們接受身心障礙者權利公約首次國家報告國際審查的時候提出多項結論性意見要求我國進一步落實平等不歧視自立生活跟人身安全保障等核心精神就一直有全面檢討與修正的必要本次修法我聚焦在以下幾點第一強化政府責任跟跨部會整合"},{"start":6615.859,"end":6633.04,"text":"因應身心障礙者在資源可靜性無障礙環境生活支持及自立生活上的需求重新檢討中央跟地方主管機關以及各目的事業主管機關之權責分工二 落實權力公約精神保障參與與平等"},{"start":6634.562,"end":6650.697,"text":"修正相關委員會的組成確保以身心障礙者為主體保障其資訊的禁用與表譽權三 建立反歧視跟救濟機制明確定義身心障礙者歧視行為作為民事求償及訴訟輔助之基礎四"},{"start":6653.905,"end":6674.659,"text":"完善的无障碍与资讯禁用环境扩大公共资讯无障碍范围网络通讯智慧型手机装置第五保障就业交通与生活支持的权益修正定额禁用的一个计算方式增加用人弹性扩大就业基金用途六"},{"start":6675.359,"end":6698.193,"text":"加強福利機構的管理跟人身安全保障建立機構負責人消極資格制度強化通報義務與裁罰的機制對重大不當的對待行為加重處罰並確保受安置者及時轉介跟保護本次修法以身心障礙者權益為核心回應國際審查的意見"},{"start":6700.396,"end":6710.157,"text":"補強制度的缺口並兼顧實務可行性期待我國身心障礙者權益保障法更加完善也希望今天的審查可以順利我們一起加油 謝謝大家"},{"start":6712.11,"end":6732.777,"text":"好 謝謝林育群委員的提案說明那我們現在要來進行施行障礙者權利保障法部分條文的修正查案等33案之主條討論 那每個條文我們會先請行政單位做說明 那接著就請委員表示意見 那我在這邊也在委員會再跟各位做個報告 因為我們總共的條文要"},{"start":6733.927,"end":6743.613,"text":"版本就就超過應該是超過33案後來有提很多修正動議那具體的共總共條件應該不止173對應該不現在應該是不止173條次了應該是超過了"},{"start":6757.717,"end":6781.511,"text":"所以這個量也不會遙遙而託那我也希望各位委員就是我們是採這樣兩次花園好不好然後如果可以這個通過就通過再來就是修正通過如果不行我們就保留留在第二輪再討論因為我們的時間坦白講也很有限了謝謝但是還是會讓所有委員來做充分的討論謝謝"},{"start":6789.923,"end":6803.746,"text":"是不是可以先休息10分鐘因為修12跟13還沒有印來這樣是不是可以好 藝術組建議啦因為那個修正東修12跟13還沒有印來那是不是休息一點點時間讓他們印來之後我們再來主要討論好不好好 那我們現在休息因為第一條就有修正"},{"start":6816.164,"end":6827.574,"text":"絕對不可能休息很久你放心好我讓醫師組再把資料備齊我們再休息一個五分鐘好謝謝五分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":7923.919,"end":7948.745,"text":"好 我們繼續開會因為那個修正東一十二案因為資料蠻多 現在還在印不過我們還是請行政機關來先做這個說明那委員的提案有我們的廖韋祥 廖昭偉針對這個法條的第一案的第一條那是不是先請行政機關來做說明那資料我們後面再補 好不好"},{"start":7953.407,"end":7979.077,"text":"來第一條有修正冬季十二案然後這個然後還有廖偉祥委員的提案修正齁還有林月琴第十二案林月琴還有羅廷維委員不是不是你這邊有修正冬季十二啊對啊對啊這修正冬季十二案沒有錯啊"},{"start":7983.052,"end":7998.952,"text":"那個跟各位委員報告那針對第一條的部分因為那個修正動議我們還沒有看到那個是不是都我們等一下稍微再做一個補充的說明那而在提案的部分第一條行政院版是沒有修正的那有提案的是羅廷輝委員和廖偉祥委員"},{"start":7999.673,"end":8014.427,"text":"那兩位委員的內容相同和行政院的現行條文大概差異的地方那主要是大概中間有多一句話就是禁止一切形式之歧視另外在保障平等參與的部分兩位委員大概都增加公民"},{"start":8015.147,"end":8039.798,"text":"我們會建議是這個部分因為一般在第一條的體力在寫立法目的的時候我們大概都是用正面的方式來去做呈現而一般比較不會用這種負面禁止事項會列在第一條的宗旨而且這個因為要禁止歧視的部分其實跟後面的現行條文要去保障它的平等參與各個部分的機會"},{"start":8040.738,"end":8058.809,"text":"其實概念上是有相近的所以我們建議這個文字是不是可以不要加那另外公民的部分因為現在已經有在這個第一個是公民他本來就是他會他的生活的部分他是會融入在包括政治經濟社會文化各個層面"},{"start":8059.81,"end":8084.578,"text":"那另外如果是單獨公民權益的部分現在已經我們國家也已經有這個公民政治權利公約的部分那個有兩公約的部分大概都有一定的另外有一個機制能夠給他一定程度的保護所以大概我們會總體的建議是不是可以維持現行的條文以上建議好請六響委員好這一條我的修正主要第一條說明"},{"start":8085.885,"end":8104.935,"text":"我想要說明說為什麼要修正第一個依據CRPD的第一條的宗旨建議將這個第一條的這個立法目的在於修正以和國際節軌所以這個國際節軌很重要第二個是平等原則不歧視原則是生權公約中重要的精神"},{"start":8105.555,"end":8132.634,"text":"那虽然103年有通过所谓身权公约施行法但是实际保障身障者权利的作用法还是必须在身权法的规范之中那尤其未来也有可能涉及到这个法院判决要认定事实适用法律时为了让法院在面对身障者遭受到歧视进而影响其权益时有一个明确的适用基准"},{"start":8133.357,"end":8158.069,"text":"所以我是建議在第一條立法目的中將這個CRPD中重要的平等原則不歧視原則這個名列在法條文字中那同時也要將禁止一切形式之這個歧視納入立法目的不僅是與這個身權公約接軌我覺得也更代表是我國在人權的法治史上的一個大進步"},{"start":8158.891,"end":8183.189,"text":"那當然後面新增公民政治兩個項兩項目主要是除了生權公約將兩公約的精神納入規範外也是對應本次修法尤其是對應到第10條有關於身障團體的DPO參與各種這個法定會議的比例那所以這不僅是符合CRPD及兩公約將障礙者的"},{"start":8183.829,"end":8202.088,"text":"公民權跟政治權的這個權利的明確入法也符合障礙團體所強調的那個Nothing about us without us沒有我的參與不要為我做決定的這個精神所以這是為什麼這一條我覺得很重要要去修正的部分好 謝謝六委員"},{"start":8205.714,"end":8233.249,"text":"的說明我這邊還有一個修正動議是委員劉建國所提那最主要是你是可能要 不是可能啦對不起就是把把這個身心障礙者權利就把它攘劃下去那我們當然開宗明義第一條叫做為恢復身心障礙者之權益那我這邊把它增列幾個文字給行政單位還有各位委員做參考為恢復身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權利"},{"start":8236.209,"end":8261.907,"text":"就是新興財產者權利公約所明示出來的各項權利我們就把它全部納入在第一條裡面那這樣是不是把全部都包進來那我在最後面是也剛剛陳如廖委員所講的我們就是要杜絕這樣的一個歧視禁止這樣的歧視所以我在這個促進其智力及發展的後面多了杜絕 隔離與歧視"},{"start":8264.025,"end":8280.502,"text":"杜絕隔離與歧視特制定本法這個也給行政單位跟給委員們做一個參考這樣的一個修正東西是不是比較符合提案委員還有行政單位是否能夠接受來做這樣的一個修正好請回應謝謝"},{"start":8282.813,"end":8308.053,"text":"已經打在這個螢幕上了那跟兩位委員報告那這個部分的話我們也去對了一下因為身權公約目前我們現行法律裡面同時還有除了身心障礙者權益保障法之外還同時我們也我國也已經通過身權公約的施行法那麼在身權公約的施行法裡面那它的第一條也是提到要這個"},{"start":8309.212,"end":8330.958,"text":"要實施聯合國生權公約它是要維護身心障礙者平等參與社會 政治 經濟 文化等的機會其實這兩個條文和生權法第一條目前兩個內容是有相呼應的所以我們會建議這個委員的建議當然是考慮到身心障礙者權利公約是不是要特別文字上列進來"},{"start":8331.898,"end":8356.157,"text":"不過因為這兩個法律其實目前大概都已經是現行而且都已經在施行中的法律所以我們會建議是不是有機會還是就是第一條的部分因為兩部法律都是規範到身心障礙者的相關的部分是不是能夠做一個比較一致性的處理我們還是建議是不是有機會可以維持現行的條文 以上好 請廖委員"},{"start":8362.541,"end":8390.893,"text":"對我覺得剛剛第一個我說要修改的這個說明喔其實也因為我們今天要這樣修所以你們現在第一條才有這樣的修正嘛對不對我們是希望把這個精神放進去好所以我覺得為了維護身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權益保障其杜絕格力與歧視的這個部分我沒有堅持我就我認為這個精神上是有加入啦好所以我我覺得這個修正是"},{"start":8395.979,"end":8417.318,"text":"修正動議這就是修正的啊就是要把我們剛剛講的對我知道就是說因為我的修正條文是這樣寫那我剛剛有講過我的目的和他要修正的原因所以這個方式我沒有堅持我覺得我可以接受"},{"start":8420.902,"end":8446.718,"text":"好 六位響委員的意見基本上是可以支持這個修正動議那現在就看行政機關先擔任你們的意見如果是這個根據兩位委員的動議我們會建議文字上是不是我們在前面把這個權力公約所示各項權益的這個部分我們把它拉進來"},{"start":8447.734,"end":8471.003,"text":"那最後這個因為它有所謂杜絕隔離歧視的部分它還是一個等於是禁止事項的概念那跟一般立法的習慣上我們大概都是用比較正面的方式來去表述來這個相關族群的平等的這個文字所以我們建議是不是有可能就是我們把前段的部分拉進來以上好 請六委員"},{"start":8479.571,"end":8484.246,"text":"就是杜絕隔離歧視拿掉就對了對不對好 上面就照這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8487.406,"end":8516.005,"text":"那我再請衛務部再宣讀修正完後的 有沒有 有不好意思我想要問有沒有可能因為我想這個是一個蠻重要的精神當然你們希望不要負面的方式去表列還有沒有方式可以替代我們所謂的希望告訴大家說這個所謂的杜絕或隔絕或禁止歧視這樣子的一個方式當然一個是負面但是我想我想我想問一下行政單位有沒有可能有一些是用比較正面表述方式去去做這樣子的"},{"start":8517.64,"end":8537.265,"text":"宣誓我們第16條好像就是有反歧視的宣誓第16條在生權法的16條現行的條文第16條其實對於反歧視的處理的部分已經有"},{"start":8546.474,"end":8570.683,"text":"也已經有相關的規定那這次也有納到修正的條文裡面去那等一下應該會可以再做進一步或許可以再跟委員來徵詢看委員的那這裡可不可以加上一個反歧視的概念促進其自立及發展及這個或者促進其自立發展然後這個反歧視的一個概念這樣"},{"start":8572.181,"end":8598.196,"text":"如果是這樣子因為反歧視還是一個類似禁止或者是這樣的概念我們會建議如果是這樣的文字我們是不是我們跟同仁確認一下我們是不是參考CRPD那個公約的第一條它後面有一句話叫做促進對身心障礙者固有尊嚴之尊重但是它還是一個比較正面的方式可以 我覺得這樣子我們把這樣的文字把它打上去看看好不好"},{"start":8603.561,"end":8629.152,"text":"好請把這對文字打上去那請各位委員再參考主席來請黃熊委員我是覺得說現行的這個條文其實我們剛剛委員這樣子大家討論的那其實我覺得就維持現行的這個條文應該就可以了吧他們"},{"start":8633.328,"end":8649.165,"text":"對現在第一個我覺得是不然打出來看看因為其實這是有關於這個剛講到的他是要跟國際人權的一個接軌所以我覺得把這加上去是如果行政單位覺得可以可行的話我是覺得這個是可以加的"},{"start":8684.633,"end":8684.733,"text":"這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8688.925,"end":8718.36,"text":"好那邊也看得到你如果看不到是你的眼睛 對不起那第一條行政機關建議就這樣 各位委員有沒有其他意見要不要宣讀一次 宣讀一下 來"},{"start":8720.578,"end":8736.478,"text":"那第一條為維護身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權利保障其平等參與社會政治經濟文化等之機會促進其自立發展及固有尊嚴之尊重特制定本法"},{"start":8758.576,"end":8783.082,"text":"我想那個我們是不是在頭上再補充一下因為是為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權益保障其平等參與社會政治經濟文化等之機會促進其自力發展及固有尊嚴之尊重特制定本法"},{"start":8784.379,"end":8811.941,"text":"這樣主體的就是還是把主體那個是身心障礙者的部分我們還是把它留下來來 請王志旭委員我覺得固有尊嚴是尊重好像就到固有尊嚴這樣就夠了那另外的話我是覺得前半段有關於身心障礙者權利公約所示的各項權利這部分能不能把它納到立法說明"},{"start":8814.185,"end":8826.894,"text":"事實上會比較完整的告訴大家我們本來的這個立法說明裡面如果沒有有缺少這一塊的話把它拉進去會是比較適合而不是放在條文裡面以上的意見 謝謝還有沒有其他問題有不一樣的意見"},{"start":8839.301,"end":8857.638,"text":"我是認為還是一樣就是說為什麼第一條需要這樣寫是要跟國際的這個人權接軌跟國際接軌的一個宣示那第一條很重要的原因是他必須去告訴大家說未來我們後面所有的立法應該去好好的去參考"},{"start":8859.984,"end":8869.612,"text":"這個國際公約跟或是國際接軌的這個概念所以我是認為應該要加在這裡那如果行政單位我覺得他如果也沒有反對的話我不曉得我們的"},{"start":8870.68,"end":8896.241,"text":"委員們有什麼要會覺得這裡有問題我覺得也有點跌窗架屋因為為什麼前面就已經講說於身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權利那已經身權公約的各項權益的時候那身權公約的確這樣子寫他的宗旨本來有寫到這一塊就是他是寫促進對身心障礙者固有尊嚴的尊重"},{"start":8897.008,"end":8922.59,"text":"好那可是現在我們不是前面就已經講要生權公約所有的權利的然後後來我們又再加了這一句那如果要加那很多都要加了把生權公約的某一些東西再加進來嗎所以我才會講說而且剛好又對不太對等的是促進其智力然後頓耗發展又固有尊嚴的尊重體力上也不太對啊"},{"start":8932.311,"end":8951.173,"text":"應該 我這樣建議好不好 趙委是不是我們在擔心那個歧視的部分他如果在16條有處理嘛而且就我們就在16條裡面再看看怎麼樣來做修正那第一條應該這個這個後面這句話實在也我覺得是也是不用了如果前面大家可以接受"},{"start":8952.165,"end":8979.22,"text":"就是這個及固有尊嚴之尊重基本上是原本就應該尊重的所以不需要多說對這個可以拿掉然後就照剛剛這個署長建議的前面這樣為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權利大大大後面就不再贅述這樣就照原有的條文您意思是說把後面及固有尊嚴之尊重拿掉對對對對對"},{"start":8980.831,"end":9009.607,"text":"然後上面前面的那個於身心障礙者權利公約所釋之各項權益對 留著所以那個廖召偉因為前面他因為講已經講到身權公約所釋的各項權益就包含這個就像剛剛你對 沒有所以現在就是說後面這句話這樣子反而會是比較好一點因為前面已經把全部都包否則的話你反而你只講說固有尊嚴那其他也沒包進去可是前面就已經"},{"start":9011.146,"end":9028.542,"text":"開眾民意就講到說只要申請權利公約所示的各項權益都要放進去好 那我們第一條的這樣的一個文字照這樣修正各位有沒有其他意見就依照這樣嗎 OK好 這樣"},{"start":9035.629,"end":9043.78,"text":"好 那我們就依照行政機關建議 這樣的一個條文的文字來修正後通過修正通過 謝謝 那我們繼續審查"},{"start":9050.144,"end":9074.018,"text":"行政院版是第二條然後有委員陳冠廷委員羅廷偉 委員羅美玲委員劉建國 還有臺灣民眾黨團還有蔡宜瑜 何清純委員廖偉祥 委員陳清輝委員林月琴 委員煥雲吳麗華委員 還有王玉敏委員羅美玲委員 還有李坤城委員還有修正東藝的"},{"start":9075.58,"end":9091.788,"text":"第5案還有13案 那修正動議第5案是林月琴委員等3人那第13案是王振旭委員等4人所提的這個兩個修正動議那我們先請行政單位來做說明"},{"start":9095.88,"end":9108.589,"text":"衛福部說明那這個部分其實各委員的版本那對於個別主管機關的部分都有有蠻多的相關的增修那包括"},{"start":9110.6,"end":9136.114,"text":"今天所看到的領域行為原版也有一個修正動議針對第一款的部分也有做一些文字的再處理我們會建議的是在這個部分文字的部分是不是有在第一款的社會福利主管機關的部分是不是要增加這個"},{"start":9138.564,"end":9149.951,"text":"在人格權益之後要不要增加權益保障的部分那我們是建議這個部分是現在其實會不會"},{"start":9152.008,"end":9169.324,"text":"因為他的權益保障的部分這個在本法裡面其實各個主管機關大概分別都有一個分工和處理所以如果從這邊是統一變成是這個身心障礙者相關所有的權益保障如果寫在這邊的話"},{"start":9170.285,"end":9198.163,"text":"那其實會變成是這個將來在權益保障的事項的規劃等等事項似乎會有點弱化其他主管機關的角色所以我們會建議權益這個權益保障的部分是不是可以不一定要甄列因為其他各個主管機關其實他所負責的事項反映的就是身心障礙者的權益保障相關的事情我們建議是不是有可能就不用甄列那第二個是"},{"start":9202.605,"end":9228.655,"text":"另外在這個范雲委員有建議是不是要新增休閒育樂主管機關的部分那我們會建議這個部分因為目前在國內有關休閒育樂他的那個內容其實非常的廣泛他可能目前實務上涵蓋到的部會會從經濟部文化部體育部甚至還有其他如果是連公園都算進去的話"},{"start":9229.335,"end":9253.027,"text":"那會涉及到的部分會非常的多那目前這個而且在條文裡面目前是比較沒有現在對應到所謂的休閒娛樂主管機關所以我們會建議這個部分是不是可以先不要增列那但是對於個別涉及到休閒娛樂事務的部分如果現行條文裡面哪一些場域是相對比較不足的"},{"start":9253.587,"end":9262.997,"text":"我們建議是不是在既有機關它的主管場域裡面有需要的我們可以去把它甄列出來這是我們的一個建議那另外這個"},{"start":9267.172,"end":9283.373,"text":"交通主管機關的部分那我們這一次有做一些修正那各委員的版本大致上是比較相同的然後另外在法務主管機關各委員的版本也都總體都還比較相近那警政主管機關這個是在"},{"start":9286.574,"end":9312.814,"text":"武力華委員的版本他有提到有一個相關司法禁用的部分那這個部分的話我們是建議因為現在在司法禁用的部分在16條在84條都已經有對於司法禁用的部分有一個統籌性的規定那是不是警政的機關是不是還需要額外再去訂我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能先不做增訂的動作"},{"start":9314.255,"end":9319.087,"text":"那在第12款文化主管机关的部分那现在"},{"start":9321.438,"end":9350.539,"text":"文字上大體上是相同的那武力華委員的版本主要是增訂對語言及文化認同那這個其實在不管是國家語言發展法或者是原住民基本法的部分現在大概都已經有一些相對應的要求那我們會建議這個地方似乎是可以因為其他的主管機關仍然也會有涉及到這個相關語文運用或者是"},{"start":9351.279,"end":9379.24,"text":"這個無障礙溝通的這個運用的部分我們建議是不是可以就不要甄列那另外這個有委員的版本是建議要甄列第司法主管機關的部分有甄列一款那這個司法主管機關的部分我們就尊重可能要請司法院這邊來做一個說明那對於這個在是不是能夠去做相關的甄列可能我們就尊重司法機關的看法那大概以上說明"},{"start":9381.4,"end":9406.298,"text":"好 等一下你們要相讓好 陳昭志委員 完之後范瑩委員然後陳清威委員 林月琴委員 廖偉祥 趙阿偉好 這樣順序好 楊偉耀我也不行好 對不起 怎樣好 那我先請這個司法院我們的法官先做一個說明一下再請第一位來做說明 好 謝謝"},{"start":9409.155,"end":9428.328,"text":"召委各位委員不好意思那個有關有委員有版本提到要在第二條增列司法主管機關的部分那我們今天書面報告有寫意見那我簡單報告一下就是中華民國的法律到目前為止沒有在訂定司法院擔任主管機關"},{"start":9429.569,"end":9446.804,"text":"尤其在第二條的體力下這個身心障礙權益是一個行政機關各個機關之間互助協力去就其所執掌事項分工合作去達成身份身心障礙者權益保障的這個目的可是我們司法司法院跟行政院是屬於不同的"},{"start":9447.904,"end":9470.195,"text":"那我們所掌理的其實是審判事項也就是司法的獨立所以把我們列跟各目的跟行政機關一起列在一起變成主管機關其實這個會造成我們行政跟司法的這個分際變得不明顯那有關我知道委員們都非常非常介意的是這個司法禁用權的保障跟這個程序的合理調整"},{"start":9470.835,"end":9486.482,"text":"這個其實在84條都有做明確的規範那我們司法院也一直有在推動跟監督跟規劃這樣的事項所以我們是漸請委員考慮是不是可以不要在第二條列針列這個以前都沒有看過的這個司法主管機關謝謝"},{"start":9491.895,"end":9506.413,"text":"這個前面講的法官講的很OK後面講的有點怪怪的以前都沒有看過了以前都沒看過你就叫我們不能頂實在是好我們第一位請陳昭志委員謝謝主席也謝謝那個司法院的說明"},{"start":9506.954,"end":9510.237,"text":"因為我們針對這個主管機關這一條主管機關的權責劃分我想再說簡單說明一下院版跟民眾黨版的尤其在第九款第十款的一些差異我們沒有堅持就是說我們要講提出幾個說明還有就教"},{"start":9522.947,"end":9544.683,"text":"因為現在目前第九款的部分整個保護機關的全都放在犯罪被害人的保護還有受刑人收容環境的改善跟更生的這個保護的面向這個部分我們全力支持但是我們民眾黨版本是進一步把一個重點放在目前制度上有所不足的地方包括身心障礙者在司法程序當中的"},{"start":9545.263,"end":9569.335,"text":"平等禁用跟程序參與權所以我們才特別在條文中明確指出司法及法務機關應該保障身心交感者在接受調查羈押訴訟或作證過程中的司法禁用並確保環境資訊服務語言與設施的無障礙所以我想用請教的一個態度請教在院版中司法禁用它有具體是哪一個機關來負責嗎"},{"start":9572.056,"end":9592.793,"text":"當然您剛剛說到不宜但是我們還是可以討論是司法院法務部還是停留在個別案件的行政協助呢那相同的第10款的部分在做這個警訊在警訊製作筆錄具體過程當中目前是不是有明確的規範要求提供溝通的輔具"},{"start":9593.934,"end":9616.734,"text":"易讀的資訊或其他的必要協助我們是希望能夠避免身心障礙者在訴訟程序當中因為他制度上的缺陷而被排除在外如果院本能夠認同司法金融的重要性我們當然期待在條文跟配套上能夠看到更清楚的制度上承諾而不是留給這個個案協調我們想我們主要的精神跟強調是在這個地方謝謝好再請煥雲委員"},{"start":9621.636,"end":9642.067,"text":"就統一 各位講完之後再請行政院做統一回顧好 謝謝那個謝謝昭偉剛剛周署長有提到說關於那個休閒娛樂的部分那您剛剛的講法如果沒有聽錯的話就是不適合放在這裡那可是我記得那天昭偉 劉建國跟我還有岳警委我們辦的公聽會的時候"},{"start":9644.269,"end":9652.555,"text":"當時周署長說可以回去研議而且我當時有提出一個具體的說至少交通主管機關下面管了這麼多國家"},{"start":9653.772,"end":9682.184,"text":"的那個娛樂設施喔那可以放在那裡那交通主管機關當天也表達說他們是ok的文字放進去那我剛現場又看到劉建國招委有一個修正動議他是直接把休閒娛樂放在衛生主管機關裡面的文字主管機關也加了我覺得也是可行喔那這個部分是不是至少交通部那個主管機關的部分因為交通部下面有管很多我沒講錯吧國旅"},{"start":9683.484,"end":9702.993,"text":"對不對相關的部分然後那那其他的主管機關有相關的不管是衛生主管機關或者第一項主管機關是不是也可以把休閒娛樂放進去因為有放跟沒放其實還是影響蠻大的以上謝謝好謝謝那請林月琴委員"},{"start":9704.56,"end":9727.131,"text":"好首先先針對於剛剛我們的周組長提的那為什麼我這邊會寫那個權益保障因為前面開宗明義就講說要針對於我們的身心障礙的權益所以我覺得你既然事實上是社政是比較主要主管機關所以我這邊還是加了一個權益保障"},{"start":9727.671,"end":9742.681,"text":"保障還有我不知道就是說今天衛生主管機關因為剛剛事實上是周組長在回答我知道我們後來修正動議所提的像衛生主管機關我有加一個醫療及生活輔具"},{"start":9743.542,"end":9766.968,"text":"因為為什麼要加醫療跟生活輔具因為輔具不是只有醫療輔具生活使用目的的輔具也應該納入到衛生主管機關的權責當中那我剛剛沒有聽到我們的衛生主管機關在回覆那剛剛只有勞工勞工主管機關有來跟我這邊溝通那我同意就是"},{"start":9768.948,"end":9783.103,"text":"禁止就業歧視這一塊那一樣的今天我想國土署也有來就是建設公務住宅主管機關這邊我也加了一個就是說及其所屬的空間場域這個應該要涵蓋在內"},{"start":9786.687,"end":9800.298,"text":"那交通主管機關就像范雲委員剛剛提的就是我們的召委前面有開公聽會我也有參與那身心障礙的夥伴都講說要有觀光休憩那我的"},{"start":9800.658,"end":9824.621,"text":"修正動議已經有加入所以我也沒看到交通部有做這樣的一個回應包含金融主管機關我們認為金融服務系統應該有無障礙設施跟優化這些服務的規劃那同樣也沒有聽到還有法務主管機關能不能有輔具提供跟司法偵查期間的輔助的資源 禁用性的這一塊"},{"start":9825.342,"end":9839.281,"text":"也都沒有沒有提到還有一個就是警政主管機關所以等一下是不是都能夠一併回覆還有經濟部的主管機關因為畢竟還是有耳哨的身心障礙者所以我們的遊戲場的國家"},{"start":9841.203,"end":9869.269,"text":"標準的訂定未來朝向共榮的這些當然有一些部分已經採用甚至我們那天也有討論到所以我增列第四項也就是說那天我講周組長有開會應該知道就是說我們最後希望採形象兒少的方法就是兒童遊樂場的方法針對休閒遊棄的這一塊要吝嗇平台所以我才會有多加了第四項就是說前項所稱的保障的事項應由"},{"start":9870.569,"end":9894.758,"text":"本法的中央主管機關定期召開跨機關政策的協調會議那才是能夠解決那天在公聽會裡邊我們他們本來是要單獨列一個休閒遊棄的一個主管機關可是基本上台灣沒有休閒遊棄的一個主管機關所以我們就說那比照而造的這種做法就是拉一個平台那我們也沒看到"},{"start":9896.927,"end":9913.195,"text":"衛福部有要怎麼寫嗎所以我們現在我增加的事實上是第四項來解套這件事情過去兒少事實上是沒有在法律明定事實上是衛福部自己做的可是現在我覺得在生權法這一塊有關休閒"},{"start":9914.415,"end":9929.558,"text":"休閒的這一塊是不是有這樣子的一個定期召開會議來解決這個問題因為現在牽扯到太多部會就跟兒童遊戲場一樣的問題所以我們希望能夠讓這樣子也就是說如果民定這些"},{"start":9930.239,"end":9946.711,"text":"主管機關的話那就會讓他們可以提供身障者可以去申訴還表達意見的機會甚至他碰到休閒遊戲有什麼問題的話可以在那邊做研討然後那你們也可以督促其他部會有牽扯到的可以去處理相關的問題以上好謝謝接下來請陳慶威委員"},{"start":9950.883,"end":9968.395,"text":"謝謝主席原本我的版本因為我看了第10屆那個時候要大修的時候有很多人提出來的修正那我覺得衛福部都有把它考量進去所以我的版本跟草案是一樣的那包括無障礙要納入名詞定義收容人環境改善的名字"},{"start":9968.775,"end":9996.645,"text":"用詞要予以修正就是現在國際社會的發展方向我是同意這樣子的修正不過剛剛有聽到比如說修氣然後或者是司法等等的我也希望等一下次長可以回應看國際社會他們是不是有另外怎麼樣的做法然後我們可以來參考謝謝好謝謝再請是廖偉強召委是不是好然後在廖偉強召委完之後再"},{"start":10004.468,"end":10009.093,"text":"王毓民委員先讓你講了所以請你謝謝王毓民委員好 那請廖昭偉 謝謝"},{"start":10012.273,"end":10034.308,"text":"我的部分呢 第一個是第三項第一款那線型跟院版的條文是用獨立生活啦那我的想法是說獨立生活是指自己依靠自己的力量不依靠別人來生活但是在CRPD的前言的第N款還有第三條的第A款以及第19條自立生活及社區融合"},{"start":10035.749,"end":10063.039,"text":"那还有他第26条等规定所以我这里是觉得是不是就把这个所谓的独立生活改为自立生活我觉得这样子也算是一个符合那也符合本法后面讨论到的所谓的自立生活那再来就是在这个部分就可以把用字跟定义可以清楚的界定所以我的建议我的意见是说在第三项的第一款我建议修改为自立生活"},{"start":10063.559,"end":10081.339,"text":"那差一个字把独立生活改为自立生活那再来就是第三项的第二款我的版本是说这个本来是将保健医疗修正为身心健康所以一来原条文在保健医疗后面又是医疗复健我认为这个用语是重复的"},{"start":10082.04,"end":10094.372,"text":"所以再來身心健康我認為涵蓋的面向比較廣不只是這個生理方面也包含心理層面我認為這個東西也蠻重要我們一直在強調"},{"start":10095.819,"end":10116.504,"text":"那当然这个因为本款是这个卫生主管机关的全责所以我也建议再增加所谓的整合性医疗及照护整合性医疗及照护所以因为障碍者除了医疗之外他的照护也很重要所以我认为说是不是可以让照护也纳入法条的文字我认为会比较全面"},{"start":10117.645,"end":10130.5,"text":"那再來我的第三點不知道你們這樣記不記得下來因為我還蠻多點第三點就是2022年有成立速發部所以我在想這個是不是也要增列一款是數位發展機關數位發展機關"},{"start":10133.183,"end":10157.103,"text":"再来就是主管有关于身心障碍他主要就是要主管身心障碍者之数位跟资讯无障碍的政策的制定还有规划跟执行与这个监督我认为这个东西还蛮重要的而且这个也有很多相关的倡议所以我认为这个因为有成立的速发部所以应该增列一款是数位发展机关"},{"start":10158.26,"end":10183.053,"text":"那再来我的第4点意见就是第11款原条文是体育主管机关但是我们现在运动部也已经在114年成立了所以我在这里我在想是不是同步修正为运动主管机关对不对这样子就会大家会统和好那当然第5点我的意见是说根据宪法增修条文的第10条第7项规定"},{"start":10184.053,"end":10211.105,"text":"这个国家对于身心障碍者的保险跟就医以及无障碍环境之建构还有教育训练与就业辅导跟生活维护与救助应该予以保障并辅助其自立与发展所以参照我们的这个宪政第十条跟其他各款所指的国家应辅助项目事项等皆为中央政府权责故中央政府"},{"start":10211.605,"end":10238.882,"text":"制定的法規政策地方政府依法執行共同落實身心障礙者的這個保障身心障礙者所以有關於本法所需的經費應以中央政府明定於公務預算及各基金之應好這是我以上五點的建議在第二第二條的修正的部分謝謝好接下來請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席我"},{"start":10240.939,"end":10257.615,"text":"我很高興看到院版呢就是把交通主管機關的部分加了無障礙和運輸服務那我還是利用這個機會因為法律的制定就是就是一種規範可是實際上的"},{"start":10261.912,"end":10289.311,"text":"的各項狀況我問一下交通部廖副市長廖副市長是這樣子因為其實有關無障礙的交通設施我已經提了很多次就是說像澎湖它有很多小離島因為它的船舶是小的"},{"start":10290.416,"end":10315.297,"text":"所以它跟馬頭之間其實是有落差的我們一般人就是有樓梯可以走那身心障礙者我很常看到離島居民甚至於是遊客是必須要靠好幾個人扛扛著上船這個問題我已經反應好幾次"},{"start":10319.318,"end":10335.07,"text":"那像離島跟偏鄉可能它的公車也就是小型公車它的無障礙設施的建置可能也都是必須要特別的規劃"},{"start":10338.917,"end":10363.079,"text":"這個都需要經費那像我大概知道像潮差那個可能就是必須要有直立式的升降機懂我意思嗎那這個到底布裡面因為像澎湖那種財政那麼困難的地方然後"},{"start":10364.939,"end":10377.648,"text":"離島線很多澎湖有住人的島嶼除了澎湖本島以外還有18個所以這個對於地方財政來講是一個很大的負擔布里邊這邊對於"},{"start":10380.194,"end":10396.545,"text":"對於相關的就我剛才敘述的這個事實你們目前就修法過了以後是一定要去做目前你們有沒有辦法在修法之前就是在這個時候做一點什麼事"},{"start":10397.679,"end":10417.493,"text":"因為有很多東西是不帶入法就必須要做的對不對請副市長大概說明一下就可以我這邊跟召委還有各位委員報告就是說其實在這個法律還沒修正之前其實部裡面其實在針對港口的部分就是剛剛委員有特別提到"},{"start":10417.933,"end":10438.009,"text":"可能有一些浮動碼頭那個可能過去都已經在一直在做但可能受限到那個相關的計畫的經費還有一些我們會從比較大的港口什麼開始開始來做那至於委員剛剛所關心到一些離島的那個部分我是因為其實相關的案件在我們部裡面自己的無障礙的"},{"start":10438.969,"end":10453.18,"text":"生權的小組裡面其實都有一些討論因為我們有相關的無障礙委員在那邊他們也有反映過類似的一個這樣的問題但是因為所涉及的一些工程的經費等等這可能還要在後續我們會再主案再來做處理"},{"start":10454.261,"end":10479.481,"text":"副市長我提不是要你們馬上做啦我只要你們趕快做啦那我也提醒一下就是福東碼頭的部分呢並沒有辦法完全解決各港口的問題所以可能還是你們趕快跟地方政府去做個討論跟協調看有沒有什麼工具是可以最適用的"},{"start":10481.002,"end":10495.991,"text":"因為坦白講就是我們站在岸上看那麼多人扶著一個身障人士上船下船那種風險"},{"start":10498.124,"end":10519.676,"text":"還有就是觀感我們內心激起的激動其實還滿高的好不好這個事情不要再拖了啦也不一定要等到立法完成啦因為很多東西不是一定要有法律才要做其實這個問題我也已經"},{"start":10520.396,"end":10538.722,"text":"提了很久了啦你們趕快把經費到位跟地方政府去協調看怎麼處理好不好這個可能也不只是澎湖的問題啦就離島偏鄉搞不好離島蘭嶼也會有這個問題好不好好 謝謝主席好 接下來請王玉民委員發言"},{"start":10539.83,"end":10555.587,"text":"好谢谢主席我想我们这次的修法应该就是希望可以有更前瞻性的概念进来所以刚刚其实有很多委员提到了对一个身心障碍者来讲他的行动自由他的旅游他的休闲"},{"start":10556.647,"end":10584.399,"text":"這個這一塊我覺得應該是要放入考量但是現在這個部裡面的這個版本所提出來的在有關於休閒觀光的這一塊的確是沒有提到那我認為這個部分應該要放進來那剛特別提到了交通主管機關現在的觀光署就在這個交通部所以交通主管機關這邊應該要增加就是有關於他們的觀光休閒"},{"start":10585.98,"end":10608.682,"text":"娛樂的部分我認為可以加在這個交通主管機關這邊應該要再增列那另外一個就是針對他們的司法權益的問題剛剛司法院是有提到說沒有法是這樣子寫把這個司法機關納入但是我們在行政院的版本或各委員的版本都有提到了"},{"start":10609.503,"end":10628.903,"text":"法务主管机关那这一块的确我们可以看到身心障碍者他有不同的障别他不是只有在法务部写的好像就是在入狱服刑的时候才去改善这一些生活条件不是这样子他走这个司法的历程的时候那他那个整个过程"},{"start":10629.463,"end":10654.511,"text":"是不是我们都可以提供他必要的在整个司法诉讼的过程当中对于身障者他该有的这一些服务我们都有提供到那这一块我觉得也是被忽略的其实也没有放进来那这一块应该是要加进去那另外这个原来的体育主管机关现在我们精心设了这个运动部那我觉得这一些障碍者"},{"start":10655.011,"end":10679.275,"text":"他们其实在有关于运动的相关的这一些设施可进性或者是推动方面我认为既然已经是专业的运动部已经成立了应该这个运动部应该要有更积极的角色跟责任在这一块应该要去促进那原来的写法可能也是比较消极式的写法"},{"start":10679.855,"end":10703.295,"text":"那是不是也可以就是他們應該要去多辦一點這些身心障礙者各式各樣的體育的活動去促進他們的這個運動然後讓他也擁有這樣的一個權益我覺得這幾項應該是這個主管機關可以在原來的版本裡面應該可以再去鎮定的部分以上謝謝"},{"start":10711.072,"end":10728.839,"text":"好那請署長這邊同意做一個回應謝謝謝謝各位委員的指正那我想綜合各位委員的意見我大概就幾個部分先來做一些相關的說明那第一個就是在這個"},{"start":10730.719,"end":10749.728,"text":"前一次公聽會之後那個召委辦的公聽會之後其實我們大概有就那天討論的事項我們有準備一些文字上修正的想法我們現在有先準備一個大概建議的文字大概會有幾個地方我們會建議可以來做我們已經有先擬議來做一個處理"},{"start":10751.249,"end":10769.763,"text":"那第一個是有關大家很關心的休閒的部分那我們會建議在交通主管機關的這個部分那我們就把它把第一個就是把觀光旅遊的這一塊我們就很明確的就依照現行政府分工的方式我們把它納進來"},{"start":10773.786,"end":10787.472,"text":"那第二個是針對法務主管機關的部分那我們也甄列了收容環境改善跟更生保護的相關事項我們甄列到法務相關的主管機關那另外這個有關輔具"},{"start":10790.493,"end":10811.15,"text":"那另外在前一次公聽會同時已經有提到的是不是我們來去設一個平台來處理相關的事項的部分這個部分我們行政部門一定會來做那這個部分那我們本來那個不只我們可以透過一個我們會建議也許是透過一個附帶決議或者是連任委員也已經有一個"},{"start":10811.83,"end":10836.781,"text":"今天已经有一个附带决议的部分我们大概可以透过附带决议的内容上面我们去把这个文字体现出来这个部分我们会配合来做一个操作那这个部分怎么样去未来去建立一个平台来去这个回应身心障碍者他的这个休闲娱乐的部分那这一块我们可以来做一个平台来跟相关部会做一个协调"},{"start":10837.481,"end":10865.196,"text":"那各位委員其他有相關有提到的一些生活的事項我大概做一個簡單的回應第一個有關輔具的部分那我們現在在衛生主管機關的部分因為衛生主管機關主要是我們的FDA那他的工作大概是針對醫療器材的管理所以大概會比較聚焦在醫療的醫療相關的輔具那但是生活輔具的部分其實現在現行的條文的"},{"start":10868.598,"end":10885.792,"text":"經濟主管機關的部分行政院版應該是在第十六款所以身心障礙者輔具的國家標準產業推動的部分以及商品化的部分其實現在是已經有分工的"},{"start":10888.089,"end":10905.397,"text":"那衛生的那醫療輔具的部分的話是在第二款的醫療輔具所以我們建議這個部分似乎是可以也許不一定需要去做一個修正的動作他的經濟主管機關已經可以做一個已經有一個搭配的相關的處理那第二個就是有關在"},{"start":10906.718,"end":10930.095,"text":"这个第一款有关社会福利主管机关这个独立生活是不是改成自立生活的部分我们觉得跟第一条的部分可以做一个呼应这个部分我们完全接受然后接下来在运动主管机关那个原来体育主管机关的部分那当然配合组织的改造我们修正成运动主管机关这个部分我们完全可以配合来处理"},{"start":10930.755,"end":10955.03,"text":"那另外勞動主管機關的部分那這個先前有委員提案要增列這個禁止職業歧視的部分那這個內容我們沒有問題那但是文字的部分就是職業歧視我們建議就是用現行法這個相關法規的做法變成用就業歧視"},{"start":10956.371,"end":10957.112,"text":"我們會建議做這樣的處理"},{"start":10963.547,"end":10992.911,"text":"那其他另外廖委員有提到這個經費的部分不好意思我好像沒有看到是有提案或者是動議但是也跟委員報告一下那目前身心障礙的這個相關的經費其實是在中央跟地方都有編列那他是搭配了這個現行條文裡面中央主管機關各有權責所以大概都會分別有來做編列的動作那所以只要在中央主管機關這邊只要在經費許可的情形之下"},{"start":10993.431,"end":11016.229,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來跟地方來做一個合作這邊我們會持續的來做努力那另外有提到很多的這個其他個別部會的部分那我是不是容許這個跟招委辦公室的容許相關的部會來做一個個別的就個別的事項來做一個補充跟說明對啊我知道我剛剛就你講完說我就要請其他單位表示意見"},{"start":11017.376,"end":11026.677,"text":"廖偉祥我也要先講是不是對 不好意思因為剛剛還有提到一個衛生主管機關我剛剛說把你們的保健醫療是不是改成身心健康這件事情"},{"start":11031.755,"end":11051.63,"text":"第二款第三項第二款跟委員報告因為那個保健醫療目前這個一般來我們去看的時候身心障礙者他的這個醫療的總體保健跟醫療從前端的預防到後端的治療大概都已經我們覺得是有南瓜"},{"start":11052.23,"end":11076.617,"text":"那但是如果是身心健康的部分那它的那個內涵實際上操作的內涵的部分是不是還會在這個一般我們對健康以WHO的定義來講它會包括身體心理及社會的氏族狀態所以它會變得更廣泛可能已經超出醫療的範疇我們建議是不是有機會維持現行的現在這樣的文字的一個表述它比較聚焦以上"},{"start":11077.757,"end":11082.563,"text":"是因為你這裡有保健醫療後面又醫療復健這個會不會有點重重複對"},{"start":11088.362,"end":11108.644,"text":"第一個這個有點重複然後再來就是這個因為身心健康其實也都算是這個衛生主管機關可以去做的事情沒有錯啊當然你要把它擴大很大很大那是另外其他的部會可是因為衛生主管機關他本來其實像我們在衛福部或是什麼常常也都是在討論身心健康的議題嘛那我是認為這個"},{"start":11110.426,"end":11121.155,"text":"本來他當然涵蓋到其他部會他就會去討論但是因為你這裡有個保健醫療又一個醫療復健其實也有點重複然後有點就是感覺語意沒有很明確啦然後還有另外一個對我剛剛有提到那個所謂數位發展部的部分好像也沒有把它加上去嘛因為現在我們2022年有成立速發部嘛那是不是應該增列一款數位發展機關"},{"start":11138.658,"end":11166.438,"text":"因為其實身心障礙者只是數位跟資訊無障礙的這個部分也都應該要納入考量好等一下林益勤委員完之後再換陳新輝委員好主席等一下是不是可以請相關的部會回應我們我的那個修正動議有進來嗎那我先問一下我們州署長這邊還是沒有回應我因為我剛剛講說"},{"start":11167.839,"end":11186.916,"text":"那個權益保障這一塊你有納入說要社會福利主管機關可是我的裡面內文上有寫那個權益保障還有衛生主管機關因為我覺得不是只有醫療輔具還有生活的輔具衛生主管機關應該也要變成是你的主責"},{"start":11187.857,"end":11209.551,"text":"所以這是不是可以去做說明還有交通主管機關就觀光休憩這一塊因為我有寫進去建設跟公務住宅的這一塊也就是說公共設施不是只有公共設施還有它所屬的空間場域都應該涵蓋甚至剛剛講金融主管機關法務主管機關跟警政"},{"start":11211.065,"end":11234.245,"text":"還有呢就是經濟主管機關針對遊戲場所以等一下是不是主席可以請我們的各個今天部會有來然後請他們一併做說明 謝謝有了 我就一直要請啊你們就一直問啊所以我就沒辦法請啊好 接下來請陳清威委員謝謝 謝謝主席我是要呼應廖祥偉委員因為我們剛剛看了一下今天來的主管機關並沒有速發布"},{"start":11234.825,"end":11262.573,"text":"那來 有沒有有有有那等一下再請速發部回應因為就這個國際公約強調的資訊禁用那我們現在剛好在推AI智慧國家如果漏掉生長者這一塊的話就把他們拋在數位時代的後面了因為現在每一個APP的設計幾乎我們每天都需要用可是如果這個APP對於生育障礙者而言它會有一個障礙"},{"start":11264.209,"end":11288.137,"text":"這會有一個這個barrier就是他沒有辦法跟大家一樣平權的話那他的生活就沒有辦法達成很多事情所以廖祥偉有增訂那一條嘛對不對就是數位發展主管機關然後他的責任是身心障礙者資訊平權數位落差縮減無障礙網路平台行動應用程式還有資訊系統的規劃推動監督謝謝"},{"start":11292.899,"end":11296.287,"text":"好 謝謝補充報告一下我們今天來的總共45個單位應該"},{"start":11299.521,"end":11327.091,"text":"應該不會有漏網之魚 如果有再請提醒一下然後第二個 第二件事情是 還有一個修正冬季第十二案這是我提出來的 也是針對各個部會要把這個修正慾都放進去的所以我們也聆聽這麼多委員的意見是不是有其他的這個主席的各單位的代表要對第二條的部分針對你們所執掌的這樣的一個範疇有什麼意見要表達的"},{"start":11328.271,"end":11329.612,"text":"來一個一個來好來 勞動部這裡說明一下林委員提的那個部分非常謝謝委員就是也同意禁止就業歧視的部分更具象化的在這個勞動主管 勞工主管機關裡面被呈現那劉 劉昭偉 劉委員所提的這一個"},{"start":11352.53,"end":11358.835,"text":"修正動議裡面有提到勞工主管機關對身心障礙者之職業重建就業促進與保障勞動權益休閒娛樂運動適應體育文化參與無障礙禁用這一段"},{"start":11367.922,"end":11385.999,"text":"對勞動部來講可能有執行上的困難因為他有個別的目的事業主管機關我們現行有一些可能有一些勞工的服務中心等等在我們後續的一些無障礙的服務上面也受上相關的目的事業主管機關的規範以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":11389.468,"end":11408.918,"text":"好這是勞動部的花園接下來還有哪個單位王三世法務部是跟主席還有各位委員報告有關那個委員們很關切司法機關為了確保身心障礙者平等禁用司法在這個特別是刑事訴訟偵查程序中有沒有提供"},{"start":11409.938,"end":11427.647,"text":"環境無障礙還有這個輔具協助以及這個相關偵查程序中的溝通程序等輔助資源的禁用這些事項那法務部對於這個保障相關程序就是身心障礙者人權的程序參與的重要性都很"},{"start":11428.487,"end":11444.867,"text":"表示認同那事實上現在有現行的法制上我們對這個身心障礙者權益的保障已經有許多在相關的法律中有明定那我就舉用三個部分來跟大家說明比如說像在環境上面那因為這個檢查機關我們辦公處所"},{"start":11447.742,"end":11463.898,"text":"還有偵查空間的設置我們都已經依照相關的建築跟無障礙規範逐步改善那我們也是個案的需要調整偵查的場所或動線的安排來降低身心障礙者參與程序的障礙那在輔具的部分呢"},{"start":11464.798,"end":11492.851,"text":"偵查期間輔助資源的提供這些相關的設備涉及人力還有這個設備專業服務的資源配置那整體的規劃跟供應我們也需要依據現行的行政體系的分工那與身心障礙服務跟社政等主管機關要協力辦理那檢查機關在職權的範圍內我們都有持續的檢討偵查實務的需求然後透過跨機關合作機制來促進"},{"start":11494.211,"end":11517.881,"text":"身心障礙者在偵查程序中獲得必要的協助那特別重要的是大家很關切的偵查中輔助資源比如說偵查程序中的溝通跟程序上的協助那相關的這個規定其實我們現行的身權法的84條有規範那事實上我們這幾年在刑事訴訟法也有很多條"},{"start":11519.281,"end":11536.368,"text":"修正的規定比如說直接的規定就是在刑事訴訟法的27條第三項就是被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法完全陳述的者應通知家屬包括法定代理人配偶親屬來為他選任辯護人還有第31條的第一項"},{"start":11542.891,"end":11567.083,"text":"還有第5項就是有強制辯護的規定還有偵查中通知法服指派律師的規定另外35條的第3項也有修訂就是輔助人陪同在場的規定另外刑事送法的第93條之一的第1項第5款第6款都有為等候辯護人輔助人或者是同意"},{"start":11568.643,"end":11593.593,"text":"等候的時間不記錄24小時的這些相關的程序規定另外在第99條就溝通障礙者的通譯跟文字的方式如果被告是聽覺或語言障礙或者語言不通的可以由通譯傳譯這些都有明文的規定而且這些規定也准用於其他受詢問或詢問人士身心障礙者的人士"},{"start":11595.203,"end":11617.544,"text":"還有一個第186條的就是有關拒絕制度對心智障礙者的例外就是證人原則上要命拒絕但是如果因為精神或其他心智障礙不了解拒絕意義或效果的就不得令其拒絕這些都是我們現在已經在刑事訴訟法有大幅修訂的規定也是一個屬於輔助資源的禁用"},{"start":11618.365,"end":11646.826,"text":"那這個另外身心障礙者權益保障法的第61條也有支援一些手語同步聽打這些實務上我們也會跟刑事訴訟法的通益制度來搭配那有關這個司法禁用權的意義就是人民有權在合理有效可負擔而且不受不當障礙的情況下像法院或者是準司法機關請求救濟獲得公平審判實質裁判的權利那檢查機關在這個部分其實都"},{"start":11647.706,"end":11658.964,"text":"已經盡力的在符合相關的法制規定下來做相關禁用的輔助跟實施落實相關的規範還有保障以上"},{"start":11660.771,"end":11677.494,"text":"好 要不要請他們一併還是對 因為他那個部分他講得很好我只補充就是說既然法務部做得這麼好我們應該要在他的那個主管機關的事項裡面把剛剛偵查過程當中給予的這個障礙者協助這一些項目"},{"start":11677.995,"end":11702.16,"text":"就是大的方向應該要寫進來因為你現在這個寫法感覺法務主管機關做很少其實如果過程有提供協助的話我建議文字加進好不好看參事你研議一下怎麼你們的主管機關的權責再加一下是跟委員報告因為像這樣的規範我們因為已經刑事訴訟法已經大部分都有規範到是不是還要在這個身心障礙者權益保障法"},{"start":11713.537,"end":11716.939,"text":"是跟委員報告我們的生意障礙者權益保障法現在84條其實它的規範就有"},{"start":11728.516,"end":11734.653,"text":"喔 好 那我們再演繹一下我們看看怎麼樣的文字是 好 以上"},{"start":11735.987,"end":11763.841,"text":"好對不起那個陳委員完了之後再換廖昭偉好那個其實我是很期待聽到那個法務部跟那個警政署這邊有什麼樣的回應那確實剛法務部所提的在很多的法律規定已經有對這個身心障礙者有很多友善的這個條文上的一些改進那但是我很認真聽就是說我覺得在整部法裡面大家"},{"start":11765.001,"end":11779.512,"text":"都很著重在身障者的部分因為就是說大家看一看可能就會很明顯知道但我要在這邊特別要提醒就是對於有些高功能例如自閉症的這一群大朋友小朋友們"},{"start":11780.433,"end":11806.855,"text":"那當然在像剛剛有法務部有提到這個99條這個同意的部分那其實對於這些高功能的人他們其實雖然看起來是知見權有時候語言上表達你聽起來可能聽不出什麼但是我覺得在可能對於一些文字的理解上他們還是某種程度上需要翻譯的"},{"start":11808.256,"end":11834.524,"text":"所以這個部分我希望在也呼籲我們所有的這個立法委員同仁還有今天與會的各個單位那在對於我們可能在這些看不出來的但是有零手冊的這一群我要拜託你們可以也留意到不是說沒有辦法沒有辦法講話"},{"start":11836.044,"end":11847.933,"text":"才需要翻譯 也不是這樣我想這一群在很多時候是被大家忽略的我想在整個做這樣很重要的提醒 謝謝好 陳勤惠委員對不起 廖翔維不是有舉手"},{"start":11856.374,"end":11876.439,"text":"然後我就請國務法官謝謝因為剛剛這個法務部是講到很多刑事訴訟法裡面的東西那我這邊是希望不管是司法院或是法務主管機關可以再講一下你們要怎麼改善這整個環境和流程因為這個我想是大家這個身障者身心障礙者的很關心的一個點如果"},{"start":11877.319,"end":11891.879,"text":"這個部分因為剛剛這個我們法務機關主要是說刑事訴訟法相關的那可是包含現在那民事的時候呢行這個其他的這個相關的部分怎麼去這個處理或者是怎麼去改善然後請你們說明一下謝謝"},{"start":11894.073,"end":11909.382,"text":"好我先請郭委員來做謝謝謝謝各位委員的指正那我大概說明一下那剛剛有提到說目前各級法院的這個身心障礙保障事項就是趙執委員提到這一塊就是有司法院在推動跟規劃的"},{"start":11910.302,"end":11936.404,"text":"那我們去年就有跟身障團體開了一個諮詢會議以後我們就公告了一本這個身心障礙者禁用司法的指引去告訴各級法院的法官你必須做什麼合理調整跟程序調整來適應身心障礙者的需求那我們在這一本裡面也有特別特別提到剛剛有委員關注到的針對自閉症的開庭注意事項我們也通通都寫在裡面所以我們一直有在做"},{"start":11937.345,"end":11962.618,"text":"這是第一個那第二個還要跟委員報告是有關剛剛提到訴訟程序中的輔助我們現在有同步聽打有手語翻譯這些我們通通都已經建制好了也有在使用了還有一個特別的事就是我們最高法院114年才做出一個判決他有明白的指摘下級分法院如果在訴訟程序中沒有應應身心障礙者的需求去做程序調整這個程序是違法的"},{"start":11963.138,"end":11982.164,"text":"所以我們是依據在我們司法機關裡面我們是認定它是有一個效力的規定在訴訟程序中就必須要去做到這些司法禁用合理調整跟平等保障這是要特別跟這個各個委員說明的那剛剛張偉提到這個不只適用在行政這個指引不只適用在"},{"start":11982.964,"end":12011.442,"text":"形式訴訟程序在各個訴訟程序裡面都有適用都有適用然後再來就是我剛剛有稍微看了一下CRPD那CRPD其實也是把13條就是關於司法禁用跟33條跨政府組織的協力其實是分別立的所以我們才會說體力上我們還是建請委員考慮不要把我們列在主管機關裡面但是在84條那邊我們沒有意見我們司法院一定會去負責推動規劃跟協助這個以上跟各位委員報告跟說明謝謝"},{"start":12015.844,"end":12032.338,"text":"好還有單位要說因為剛剛法務主管機關沒有回應我這邊提到的就是我的有提到就輔具提供與司法偵查期間那個輔助資源的禁用信號為什麼因為"},{"start":12034.119,"end":12056.464,"text":"認為整個就是你的整個物理環境資訊 服務 語言跟設施的無障礙都要有甚至資源是不是可以有禁用的那樣所以我們檢調主管機關應該確保身心障礙在調查跟稽查期間的一些司法權益那這些東西的提供是不是有可能所以請我們的法務主管機關能夠回應來 王城市"},{"start":12063.683,"end":12084.693,"text":"是剛剛我在提那個說明的時候似乎應該是有提到那個輔具的部分因為這個是涉及人力設備跟專業服務的資源配置那這個整體的規劃跟公益我們依照現在的行政體系分工我們還是需要跟設政跟主管機關來協力辦理那我事實上我們檢查機關我們在我們職權範圍內"},{"start":12086.494,"end":12096.27,"text":"也都有持續的檢討我們的食物需求那我們也希望是能夠透過掛機關的合作機制來促進他們在偵查程序中獲得必要的協助"},{"start":12096.789,"end":12124.458,"text":"那這個部分是就輔具的部分那輔助資源部分就是包括通譯還有辯護人還有一些這個其他相關的輔佐人這些輔助資源其實我們的刑事訴訟法相關的規定這幾年都有大幅的修正符合希望能夠落實身心障礙者的保護那不曉得這樣子有沒有回答到委員的疑問以上"},{"start":12126.772,"end":12142.315,"text":"好來再請要做補充的來兩位好我對不起我先委員會處理一下時間跟各位委員做個宣告是不是這樣因為已經超過12點那是不是這第二條我們第二條有17個委員的提案然後有三個修正動議"},{"start":12143.816,"end":12171.596,"text":"是不是也等下兩個行政單位要做說明再做說明那說明完之後我們就休息了然後也請各單位針對個別委員有提案的部分是不是再做一下說明然後再請衛務部再做第二條的整個文字上的一個修正整合然後再列印出來給所有委員做參考不然這樣審下去可能到下會期不一定還會OK好來請說明謝謝那我們就會休息到兩點喔OK好謝謝"},{"start":12172.076,"end":12195.342,"text":"交通部這邊第二次報告針對剛剛委員所關心的第12款休閒育樂主管機關跟我們第6款交通主管機關的部分這邊做一個回應第12款的部分部裡面這邊是支持那個衛福部剛剛的版本就建議不要增訂因為剛剛署長這邊有特別講因為休閒育樂主管機關現在沒有一個特別的一個"},{"start":12196.002,"end":12218.875,"text":"定義然後再來我們的休閒娛樂所有設施是散建在各部會轄管的範圍之內所以這個部分可能會定下去未來會很難去做一個定義跟執行那如果說剛剛委員所關心的在我們第6款的交通主管機關加觀光旅遊這一項原則上不是不行但是加了以後就如同我剛剛講的"},{"start":12220.095,"end":12239.329,"text":"只針對我交通部的風景區去做處理但是散建在其他部位所管的比如說農業部所管的森林遊樂區加上內政部的國家公園還有一些體育場館這個都不是我交通主管機關這邊可以做處理的所以如果說真的要在這邊鎮定的話未來可能會"},{"start":12241.931,"end":12261.159,"text":"定不完因為各部會都有自己的主管所以是建議說還是回歸到各部會所主管的範圍依照自己無障礙的一個推動的一些方式去處理不需要在這邊做一個增訂以上報告好這是交通部廖副市長的這個回應好在監管監管會嗎謝謝"},{"start":12267.013,"end":12282.205,"text":"經管會這邊針對林委員提案的第八款金融主管機關的這個修正文字我們希望做一個文字的調整就是在這個金融服務系統無障礙設施及優化這個部分我們建議文字修正為"},{"start":12283.266,"end":12311.674,"text":"金融無障礙設施優化主要是考量到說金融無障礙的服務不只有系統還有系統以外的相關設施包括無障礙的ATM還有無障礙服務的櫃台這些所以我們建議文資修正為金融無障礙設施優化等服務之規劃推動及監督等事項 以上說明好 還有其他單位要補充嗎 來社會發展部來麥克風給他一下"},{"start":12313.735,"end":12339.615,"text":"你的領子要整理一下好謝謝你沒有打開麥克風是主席還有委員大家好剛才大家都很關心數位發展部列為主管機關一事那其實在院版裡面有很明確的提到在14款裡面數位發展部就已經很明確的是通訊傳播主管機關之一了那裡面也有很明確的提到我們的內容有傳播還有通訊內容無障礙之規劃推動還有監督"},{"start":12340.936,"end":12367.674,"text":"所以剛剛委員非常關心書發部該做的業務其實在裡面都已經有明定了這是第一點那第二點的話因為數位發展我們本身認為這個技術比較是中立性的而是說落實到內容以後才會開始比較有歧視或者是無障礙的議題所以我們建議還是回歸到14條裡面已經有把書發部的內容都放在裡面了那無歧視的部分還有無障礙的部分也有在裡面我們會覺得這樣子的話我們比較著力點比較更可以去積極推動"},{"start":12368.655,"end":12379.984,"text":"那現在在這個模式下我們也運作的很順利以上說明 謝謝好 這個你就針對有個別委員提案的部分再可能私底下再做一下說明好不好來接下來換那個單位來請說明"},{"start":12390.391,"end":12412.578,"text":"主席及各位委員好內政部國督署請就剛剛月勤委員所提醒的在有關於公務住宅的這個修正的內容因為在月勤委員所關心的這個部分他可能還涉及到有關於相關的遊憩場所跟運動場所那這個似乎不在這個所謂的"},{"start":12413.206,"end":12437.88,"text":"建設公務的這樣的一個內容當中那因為其實在生存法的第57條當中已經明定了活動場所的相關目的事業主管機關他要去訂定適合的規定那要逐步去做推動跟相關的改善所以我們是不是建議有關於第6款的這個修正的內容可以維持原來原版的部分的內容那以上說明"},{"start":12438.772,"end":12450.02,"text":"好 謝謝國土署也請你再跟 私下再跟葉警衛溝通一下好 那也還沒有其他的意見那如果沒有的話 來請陳昭志委員"},{"start":12453.226,"end":12476.732,"text":"我很快說明 剛剛謝謝郭法官的說明 剛剛你說在後面也會提到這個司法禁用的部分但是如果已經做了那麼多事 更謝謝你們 已經做了那麼多事但是第二條他是在彰顯每個獨立的 每個分配的機關目的跟這個職長的部分那這個對身障者來說意義非常重要"},{"start":12477.532,"end":12490.723,"text":"他覺得每一個機關都已經進來來負責他專有的那您說的那麼多之後我瞭解你們有做那你可不可以建議文字就是我怎麼表達這個司法監管會有一個主責的單位是來負責的"},{"start":12493.997,"end":12516.438,"text":"我想那個召委他也明白我這邊就是說大家要看那個因為竟然列了這麼多的機關那會獨漏這個部分即便您在其他的法條方面那跟委員跟召委報告可不可以列在84條就是前面這一些訴訟程序上的這些禁用的權限要由司法例如說用條文或者是用附帶決方式必須要司法院來負責推動規劃跟檢讀"},{"start":12517.847,"end":12539.019,"text":"可是第二條上面寫主管機構各目的事業主管機構全責劃分就是剛剛委員報告過就是因為第二條比較講的是行政機關一體間的這個分工他的體力比較像是行政的一體分工的那種條文對那體力上比較很少看到說把司法院列為行政機關中要參加行政體系一體分工的這種機關"},{"start":12540.2,"end":12558.71,"text":"那如果我們單獨列在84條可以彰顯出我們司法是獨立在行政機關這個體系外面的可不可以請委員參考這樣子的方向那這個東西我們研議一下我們因為要討論很久嘛就這個部分我們再稍微保留一下就是說把這個架構因為這個我想這部法案我們也會處理蠻久的時間謝謝 說得好"},{"start":12562.432,"end":12586.953,"text":"謝謝來請走最後因為這個時間關係但是我想要回應一下剛剛速發部講的因為我看了一下你們行政院版的第14條通訊傳播主管機關你這裡寫的是身心障礙者無障礙資訊通訊技術與系統等等這個或是相關的傳輸內容無歧視等我覺得這個我想要請問一下你們這通訊傳播主管機關是速發部還是是NCC都有嗎"},{"start":12587.654,"end":12616.874,"text":"好但是我們其實在強調的是一個類似數位平權的概念可是我看起來這這個感覺上有就是好像不是很明確對好像是著重在內容跟歧視的部分我是覺得好像沒有特別凸顯出這個所謂速發部的一個權責對是不是請速發部可以回去想一下還有請那個我們這個主管機關回去想一下說這部分是不是要怎麼把它強化謝謝"},{"start":12618.554,"end":12638.001,"text":"好謝謝那應該這樣啦就個別委員有提出來的意見也請各單位來做一些資料上的彙整然後也可以個別再跟委員這樣溝通就像這個世華運動的郭老關現在已經一直在溝通了就是典範好謝謝那我們現在我們現在"},{"start":12640.003,"end":12653.584,"text":"我們就休息啦 到下午兩點那我也跟各位預告今天可能會在研會 會盡量把盡量來處理啦 但是要研到什麼時候還是會尊重我們初期委員的意見好 以上 謝謝 現在休息"},{"start":12672.363,"end":12687.602,"text":"呃"},{"start":20217.523,"end":20230.289,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 那我們先請我們的衛福部這邊 針對於早上第二條在做討論的時候 可能牽扯到其他部會 那是不是先做說明"},{"start":20235.965,"end":20256.223,"text":"是 中午之前 各位委員對於相關主管機關的業務應該要執掌辦理的事項都有提到很多的事項大概中午我們把目前已經初步整理過的部分跟各位委員做一個報告"},{"start":20257.143,"end":20271.652,"text":"那第一項就是這個社會福利主管機關的部分那早上是廖委員提到就獨立生活我們建議可以修正我們這個配合修正的自立生活這個沒有問題然後第二款的部分"},{"start":20273.653,"end":20290.891,"text":"衛生主管機關的部分我們會建議是這個把預防原來的文字我們做一個處理就是因為一直在出現醫療好像會很重複然後而且這個看起來會有點混亂那我們重新做了一個處理照醫療三段五級這樣的一個概念"},{"start":20291.491,"end":20307.023,"text":"我們把它修正成從身心障礙者之鑑定然後從最前端的預防保健中段的醫療到後段的復健與輔具研發等相關事項的全醫規劃那我們來做這樣的一個處理那這兩項的部分這邊先跟"},{"start":20311.487,"end":20332.062,"text":"月勤委員這邊回報一下就是委員這邊有提到就是原來希望在原來有提到在第一項的第一款的部分裡面是不是要加進身心障礙者人格維護及權益保障的部分那我們中午做過一些討論我們是建議是不是有可能先"},{"start":20333.103,"end":20348.264,"text":"先不要放进来主要的考量是因为在这一条里面其实各个目的事业主管机关大家所负责的事务其实都是涉及到身心障碍者的权益保障"},{"start":20349.345,"end":20364.94,"text":"大家所會知道都是各種面向的權益保障如果只在這邊單獨去提的話會變成是不是將來所有權益保障的部分變成有一個機關去做統籌的處理反而容易會不會有這樣的"},{"start":20366.321,"end":20384.364,"text":"比較不了解的人會不會有這樣子的解讀那我們是建議所以我們會建議說第一款的部分是不是先不甄列這樣子的文字第二個就是這個第二款的部分有提到是不是醫療及生活輔具的研發我們把文字做了一個順的部分"},{"start":20384.924,"end":20399.293,"text":"那廖委員剛才有提到是不是要加進來這個身心健康或者加進心理健康的部分那我們跟我們幾個業務單位做了一些討論我們也是跟委員做一些拜託我們大概的想法是因為從"},{"start":20400.294,"end":20429.123,"text":"预防保健医疗到后端的附件其实它本质上就是身心一定都在里面所以这个部分如果要我们要再清楚把它秀出来的话我们会建议是不是有可能我们到时候在说明栏里面把这个心理健康或者身心健康这样的一个概念我们在说明栏里面再做一个文字上的补充是做这样的一个说明然后接下来就到第三款的文字没有变动然后第四款劳工主管机关的部分"},{"start":20429.872,"end":20429.932,"text":"這個配合"},{"start":20434.735,"end":20459.87,"text":"這個林慧琴委員的提案的部分那這個有甄列禁止就把原來的禁止職業歧視那我們只有做一個文字的建議修正變成就業歧視然後建設公務主管機關這一款沒有修正那在交通主管機關第六款交通主管機關的部分那這個在參考了上一次公聽會以及在這邊跟今天上午大家說各位委員的意見"},{"start":20460.51,"end":20478.012,"text":"那我们增列的就是把生活通信大众运输工具在前面我们更明确的把无障碍你挪到最前面来那这跟所有的这个相关的事项都通通都都会把它框进去那另外也回应就是各位委员提到这个有要增列"},{"start":20478.853,"end":20493.128,"text":"休閒娛樂主管機關的部分因為目前沒有很明確的休閒娛樂但是我們先請交通部這邊把最直接有關聯的觀光旅遊的部分就先納到交通主管機關這邊來"},{"start":20494.91,"end":20510.548,"text":"那然后接下来在第八款金融主管机关的部分那这个也是委员有提到的意见那我们在这边的这个谢谢金管会那金融再会甄列一个金融无障碍设施优化好吧这样的一个"},{"start":20511.737,"end":20534.406,"text":"也是月勤委員的提案的部分我們把文字增補進來然後這個在接下來到底下第11款的部分也是依據各位委員的意見原來的體育主管機關我們就修正成運動主管機關第12款文化主管機關的部分我們也把文化權益這樣的一個概念放進來那因為這個"},{"start":20535.866,"end":20559.963,"text":"在文化去講休閒娛樂好像會不太明確但是實際上很多的文化部主管的事項我們大家一般會覺得他和休閒娛樂有關聯我們就把文化權益這樣的文字也把它參採進來那在接下來到底下的部分那這個是第14款跟第15款原來在通訊傳播主管機關我們把它拆分出來"},{"start":20561.264,"end":20579.474,"text":"通传会和速发部的部分就变成两款通讯传播主管机关的部分它的主管事项它的主管机关全责划分子是定成身心障碍者通讯技术与系统"},{"start":20580.638,"end":20583.139,"text":"对不起 这边可能多一个字"},{"start":20604.907,"end":20622.05,"text":"以应该要拿掉即政府数位服务网路平台与行动化应用软体无障碍之规划推动及监督等事项所以增列一款那第16款和第17款就是款式的做一个顺移"},{"start":20622.651,"end":20637.178,"text":"那最後一個是陳昭之委員有提到這個原來司法主管機關的部分那司法院也有跟陳昭之陳委員這邊做了一個報告那會配合在這個條文的說明欄裡面"},{"start":20638.692,"end":20653.546,"text":"會甄列相關的文字那這邊我因為不是條文我就簡單的宣讀一下會在條文甄列有關身心障礙者權利公約第13條所定身心障礙者在平等基礎上有效獲得司法保護之權利"},{"start":20654.867,"end":20668.573,"text":"因適用本法第84條之規定並由司法院負責推動規劃及監督法院在訴訟程序實施過程中之司法禁用與無障礙事項大概以上"},{"start":20673.087,"end":20690.123,"text":"我這邊先表示意見就是當然我覺得剛才沙漢署這邊提到那個權益保障我可以不堅持可是針對於衛生主管機關的那個生活輔具我認為還是要放醫療跟生活是不一樣的所以這個我非常堅持"},{"start":20690.763,"end":20705.434,"text":"等下你們可以再做說明那等下是不是因為到底遊戲場的這一塊要放在這邊還是因為的確而造權法裡邊有把經濟部上遊戲場這個國家標準訂定"},{"start":20709.113,"end":20730.48,"text":"有放 可是這邊是牽扯到的事實上是比較是無障礙這一塊美國大概是分兩塊 一個無障礙的標準一個是遊戲場標準 台灣事實上是會變成我們是用CNS12612643在管我們的遊戲場的規範而且事實上是本體對無障礙我覺得沒有多做說明"},{"start":20730.973,"end":20745.787,"text":"或者等我們看是不是經濟部可以再做再做說明還有剛剛我覺得衛福部有沒有回應我講的就是後邊我們的增加的那個等於是第三項第四項這邊好那"},{"start":20746.388,"end":20769.701,"text":"是不是要增加 也就是當初我們在開公定位的時候你們有提及到說要有一個跨平台那我覺得這邊就授權會讓他非常清楚可是這邊也沒有針對這個你有做說明還有一個我要問的是金融主管機關拿掉服務系統這四個字是更擴大還是更限縮"},{"start":20770.761,"end":20794.792,"text":"因為本來我們是金融服務系統要有無障礙設施及優化那拿掉服務系統這四個字那再來要問警政的 警政主管機關我們這邊也有要求是司法偵查偵查程序進行中的那個輔助資源的一個禁用那我覺得這邊也沒有特別做說明"},{"start":20795.816,"end":20800.178,"text":"那以上我不知道其他委員針對他們剛剛講的有沒有其他的意見沒有那其他委員沒有那就是針對我的部分是不是可以來做回應"},{"start":20828.928,"end":20847.007,"text":"跟委員報告一下在前一次公聽會的時候提到我們後面可以去建構相關的委員版本要申列最後一項有跨機關政策協調會議的部分抱歉我剛才可能確實是漏掉了"},{"start":20848.308,"end":20869.859,"text":"我們會建議這個部分是不是有機會是因為這個部分如果是參考兒少全法用遊戲場這樣的一個平台機制來處理的話我們建議的處理方式是是不是有可能用附帶決議的方式來處理那我們有準備一個附帶決議建議的文字這個文字我們會建議是請衛生福利部"},{"start":20870.779,"end":20893.95,"text":"與六個月內會商有關機關研議建立身心障礙者遇到休閒活動權益事項之跨部會溝通平台這邊我們用這個因為這個大概就是參考現在在遊戲場的方式我們就去建構這樣的一個平台的機制委員其實在今天也有一個"},{"start":20896.857,"end":20905.782,"text":"本委員本來也有一個附帶決議的部分那也有提到這個部分要做橫向的應該是附帶決議的第二案"},{"start":20911.755,"end":20937.497,"text":"那這個部分的話我們也我們也會建議如果是不用行政院的不用衛福部這邊的一個建議附帶條文附帶決議的文字的話我們會建議是那這個附帶決議這個前面有些場域的部分可能會配合法令的部分做一些調整那主要是委員建議的委員的這個附帶決議最後最後一段令要求本法中央主管機關"},{"start":20939.622,"end":20965.944,"text":"那以下是我們建議修正的方法因進行跨部會政策協調那就是中間定期檢視這幾個字我們可能會需要把它刪除掉就是因進行跨部會政策協調並提供身心障礙者表達意見的機會確保服務完整性那這樣的話一樣是把這個跨部會橫向協調的機制納進來以上"},{"start":20969.124,"end":20996.387,"text":"好 衛福部還是沒有回應我剛剛講的生活輔具生活輔具的部分這個跟委員報告一下就是目前在衛福部在輔具的管理的部分那我們這個在管理上它就是如果它是屬於依照醫療器材管理法它要列進來的話那就是由我們的食藥署那依照醫療器材的部分來管理"},{"start":20996.807,"end":21025.504,"text":"那如果不列入医疗器材管理的部分生活性他不用用医疗器材管理在现行的条文在第15款和第16款包括科技主管机关和经济主管机关的部分科技主管机关已经有名列身心障碍者辅助科技的研发技术研究移转在经济主管机关则有名定身心障碍辅助的国家标准定定产业推动商品化开发规划及推动"},{"start":21026.324,"end":21053.65,"text":"那這個部分的話我們是建議它其實生活輔具的部分其實現在是已經有主管機關來做相關的處理以上可是15跟16的意義不同因為16它還是經濟部每次都跟我們講說它指定標準我們在衛生主管機關這邊要求的是研發還有它相關權益的一個規劃所以我覺得還是有落差"},{"start":21055.666,"end":21077.985,"text":"所以如果你剛剛講說要放在15、16來認為說這一項就反正15、16就會解決看起來我覺得16並沒有解決他只訂標準而已第15款科技主管機關的地方是研發跟技術研究"},{"start":21078.712,"end":21103.951,"text":"但是第16款經濟主管機關的話就包括了它的標準訂定產業推動商品化開發規劃及推動所以這兩個部會其實在跨部會的部分它是組合起來是有包括到生活輔具就是它只要不需要如果不涉及到要用醫療器材來管理的部分的話其實是有主管機關來操作的"},{"start":21106.589,"end":21125.498,"text":"這個科技研究事務主管機關會是誰目前現行的話應該是國科會另外一個就是針對於那個金融主管機關我說拿掉那四個字會是更擴大還是更限縮"},{"start":21130.703,"end":21151.732,"text":"回應委員這邊就是我們剛剛有提到說拿掉這個系統是因為考量到那個金融服務包括不只有系統還有系統以外的相關措施包括無障礙的ATM或無障礙服務的櫃台 所以拿掉系統是範圍比較大一點警政主管機關"},{"start":21162.046,"end":21173.785,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好警政署就第二條第10款來回應有關身心障礙者警訊跟具體的司法紀念我們會要求所屬落實去推動跟執行"},{"start":21174.588,"end":21200.885,"text":"不過就法條設計上那調查筆錄就是所謂的警訊跟具體軍事司法警察的職權那司法警察的定義是規範在刑事訴訟法並非單純指警察也並非單純是警察的職權例如檢察事務官 調查官 廉政官海巡 移民跟憲兵都是刑事訴訟法所定義的司法警察"},{"start":21202.126,"end":21208.671,"text":"若單列警政機關做主政恐事前不亦有所疏漏 以上報告"},{"start":21210.14,"end":21234.609,"text":"因為我們法務那邊法務主管機關有列所以在你們這邊有列就像你剛剛講不會是單一嘛所以我們就希望兩邊有列如果你認為事實上是跟法務主管機關一樣的因為有牽扯到那是不是應該在後邊真的是要我們來辯如果不要寫在法條的話我們大概就用附帶決議或是立法說明的時候把它講清楚"},{"start":21235.109,"end":21259.991,"text":"今天身心障礙團體為什麼提出來就是因為他們多年來使用上根本就是沒有辦法在他們進入到整個司法體系的時候不管是警政或法務他們都會有他所謂的不友善甚至他的競變性事實上是比較弱甚至他們需要協助可是就是沒有辦法得到協助所以才會提出這樣的法條"},{"start":21261.061,"end":21289.237,"text":"所以等下是不是會後是不是可以等下是你們提供文字給我這邊那另外一個就是衛福部剛剛說明的我個人並不同意去放到因為當初兒少權法真的是不得已因為遊戲權一直是找不到主管機關所以才用便宜形式像那現在一樣休閒遊戲這一塊也是比較沒有辦法主管機關的時候那兒少權法的確沒有定事實上是當初因應"},{"start":21290.177,"end":21316.139,"text":"整個狀態勢必遊戲場越來越多的時候要管理才會做這樣子的一個是因為時事所趨所以你們去做了這樣平台那沒有納入到法規可是沒有納入到法規的話我覺得它就不是長久之類可是遊戲場還算單純可是如果這個身心障礙的休閒遊戲的話事實上是會一直持續不斷所以我認為還是要納入在法律裡面"},{"start":21317.02,"end":21339.457,"text":"所以除非你有更好的文字我等下提供 我們也可以等下再做討論好 謝謝主席我想針對第二條大家都希望把很多很多的必要的事情能夠在我們法律裡面直接明文去規範不過如果我們看第二條的最後一項"},{"start":21340.703,"end":21358.04,"text":"前項以外是身心障礙權益保障事項由各相關目的事業主管機關依全責規劃辦理我意思就是說如果他最後一項其實是怕掛萬漏一嘛所以又有這個最後一項的文字"},{"start":21359.221,"end":21384.614,"text":"確認在這邊那如果不太清楚就是主管機關如果我們寫的越詳細越好呢還是說有什麼方式可以不要詳細到萬一沒有列進來然後就被漏掉了未來在處理上造成的困難所以我也說剛剛主席現在也希望能夠把它寫得非常的詳細那這樣對於一個法條來講這樣的做法相對來講是哪一個會比較適當以上"},{"start":21389.22,"end":21414.148,"text":"針對這個我想證據委員當然他是從應該每個主管機關都會去做他他應該做的不過因為我覺得身權法裡面可能還是要看到就是身障者的需求因為所有障礙都是制度都是法會造成的基本上是不會有障礙的"},{"start":21414.898,"end":21433.951,"text":"那一樣的那如果這次我們好不容易要去動這步伐的時候是不是可以從晚輩來做考量我覺得沒辦法到近戰近美可是至少團體提出來的東西一定是他這麼多年來有所妨礙所以產生困擾也就是說如果剛剛證據委員提的"},{"start":21434.972,"end":21463.191,"text":"依照規定有在做那大家不會再提出來這些要求就像我剛剛提的法務跟我們的警政主管機關他們針對輔助資源的禁用性那人家為什麼這時候提出來如果都有做我相信團體不會提出來這個我覺得團體也不會這麼樣說要你們多寫多少個字沒有意義可是重點是一定是沒有做到啊不是嗎這是一個另外一個就是還是回到衛福部這邊"},{"start":21464.915,"end":21482.245,"text":"針對於我剛剛提的那個第四項要列入你們可不可以再做說明因為我希望還是要有一個這樣子的一個會議來召開因為休閒遊戲事實上是長遠性跟遊戲場還是不太一樣跟ASO的遊戲場還是不太一樣"},{"start":21495.973,"end":21517.022,"text":"這個法務和警察的部分可能就要拜託我們相關部會可能再幫忙做補充那委員這邊提到的這個委員提案要增列第四項的部分那如果我們第一個是我們一定會照這個剛才所跟各位報告的這個平台的機制我們一定會來操作"},{"start":21517.902,"end":21536.207,"text":"那只是在文字的部分是如果要我們建議的方法是說是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來處理那如果一定是要進到條文的話那這個部分條文的話當然如果最後要擺在就是如同委員所"},{"start":21540.051,"end":21565.246,"text":"如果是以现在委员的文字的话因为他这边是提到是前项所称保障之事项那这个我们只是确定一下这个是要针对这个休闲娱乐的管理还是所有权益保障因为如果是所有权益保障现在在第10条的部分他其实是已经有一个"},{"start":21565.866,"end":21594.966,"text":"通案性的組織就是不管是院生權或者是部裡面其實也有部的也有生權委員會那就是看這樣的話這個如果是如果一定如果是需要在這邊寫我想大方向也這樣的文有一項的文字我們也是可以接受那只是看這個這個所謂的前在委員版本的所謂的前項所稱保障事項因為這個回到前面第三項是指"},{"start":21596.106,"end":21614.658,"text":"前項以外其他身心障礙權益保障事項那這個部分是不是就是我們將來是針對這個沒有列進來的部分我們來做一個處理那如果放到條文裡面大方向我們是可以接受那我們文字上面也許技術網上我們再做一個確認然後再來跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":21620.227,"end":21633.053,"text":"陳副署長講的 當然第四條有這樣訂因為我不是沒有開過說類似你們這樣會我不知道現在這樣會多久開一次過去所謂的向兒少推動小組半年開一次會"},{"start":21633.936,"end":21649.416,"text":"而且常常都限制提案那如果說今天前面場域這麼多問題的時候常常我相信團體要提案大概提不上案這就是我過去的經驗那你說要用這個第10條的這樣子的一個所謂的委員會來解決所有的問題"},{"start":21651.055,"end":21679.27,"text":"可能我相信很難如果可以的話那當初我相信今天過去社家屬不會再設一個遊戲場的平台那如果那樣的話本來你就可以在你們自己的兒少委員會開啦就是因為沒辦法因為第一個他們半年才開一次和一個平台他可能是每個月開一次因為有問題就要解決如果不OK的遊戲場馬上要解決甚至標準有時候不太一致大家認定的標準不一致就要解決"},{"start":21679.87,"end":21704.241,"text":"和你如果是這種會議的話我相信很難沒有辦法解決這麼多問題而且機動性非常的弱和相對平台我覺得有大落差所以我為什麼覺得說應該要放在這邊而且相信也不是只有休息遊戲像停車空間很多這也是我覺得我連這兩次跟深藏團體朋友們開記者會那個停車"},{"start":21705.014,"end":21730.614,"text":"坦白講他們很大的困擾你們發的身障的一個停車診根本就是很大量發的時候讓很多需要的人可能不見得有停車位可以停所以這就是都要解決的問題所以我們才會希望說是不是有一個在增列這一項來當然文字上如果覺得比較有哪些要調整的你們可以去調整可是我覺得目的上是要達到這樣目的"},{"start":21734.804,"end":21761.771,"text":"我想就是文字我們會建議是不是用文字的部分我們在細節文字部分做個確認因為大方向是還蠻清楚的就是如果是確定是針對以剛才所提到的目前來看起來就會先核心以這個休閒娛樂的這些部分的一個協調的平台為主軸那我們以這個部分我們來去準備相關的文字來做一個稍微做文字來做一個研擬的動作"},{"start":21765.666,"end":21768.132,"text":"先文字還沒有辦法那我就先請交通部"},{"start":21791.591,"end":21819.989,"text":"委員這邊再補充說明因為可能早上在我發言的時候可能接近中午那針對第六款交通主管機關部分觀光旅遊因為其實早上我的表達是說希望在這個地方列在列在交通部的權責裡面會有一個狀況就是因為台灣有很多是非屬交通部主管的尤其取向農業部或者是像那個我們內政部的國家公園所以列在這邊可能會有掛完肉依的一個情形"},{"start":21820.809,"end":21847.926,"text":"這是第一點所以我們是建議這個文字要嘛就不應該列在這個地方回歸到各部會的主管權責裡面去處理那當然另外委員所關心的休閒娛樂這一塊因為其實在我們先行法規第52條的部分其實已經針對了身障者在社會參與或休閒文化活動體育活動等等之類在這個第52條的第一項裡面其實都已經有規定了"},{"start":21848.366,"end":21866.357,"text":"所以如果說真的要去處理因為其實我們的休閒娛樂這件事情分散在各不同的主管機關那52條剛好可以做一個匡列如果說真的要處理我是倒覺得52條是可以來回應現在身上朋友的期待以上補充"},{"start":21867.25,"end":21893.299,"text":"好如果交通部這樣提的確農業部也有所謂的休閒農場之類的那你們的確有觀光署 等一下看其他委員要不要表示意見一種就是我覺得我的本來的說明就針對於增列第四項就提到也就是說這是沒有明定的其他的權益包括我們的校園運動場域 文化活動場域 休閒"},{"start":21894.5,"end":21913.002,"text":"预热跟水利设施跟高滩地的休闲场地跟露营区我们就现在是海水浴场跟海上活动这些无障碍设施那都要由各个我们的主管机关依全责来规划推动跟监督来避免任何疏漏这也是一种做法"},{"start":21913.522,"end":21941.687,"text":"就是不用再普列每一個都要去提到那也看在場的委員的意見可是原則上第四項要列進去的話才能夠解決我們未來如果有跨部會的問題要解決的話不管停車或者是休憩空間甚至休憩的設置產生什麼問題的時候那當然我覺得就可以不用去普列在每一個主管機關有關休閒的這一塊那我不知道在場的委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":21945.888,"end":21971.173,"text":"那個政區委員是謝謝主席剛剛所做的說明其實我覺得第52條會把可能針對身心障礙者參與社會過程裡面碰到的一些相關不管十一住行各方面都會處理到的部分所以如果結合第二條跟第52條事實上很多東西經過整合應該會更清楚那第二條我們已經討論非常多"},{"start":21971.753,"end":21991.001,"text":"所以如果在第二條裡面希望能夠再做調整的部分是不是先第二條就先保留然後再跟大家討論過52條以後第二條以後再針對第52條的部分看如何能夠再補強讓第52條可以更為完整以上的意見謝謝好那我們就第二條先行好運動部"},{"start":22004.77,"end":22028.75,"text":"同步同意改為運動主管機關 那也建議跟前面一致 後面的身心障礙者體育活動改為運動活動 那這樣會一致 謝謝我們就第二條 因為還是有些文字上要等 那是不是我們就先保留 然後繼續進行我們的第三條"},{"start":22031.243,"end":22043.145,"text":"我們現在進行到第三條之前有一個民眾黨的版本第二條之一"},{"start":22060.429,"end":22064.411,"text":"主席是不是允許我說明還是我先請主管機關說明有關民進黨黨團提案的就是這個對於可及性的部分那這個是行政院版是沒有這樣是並沒有增訂這一個條文那對於民進黨黨團的這個提案的部分那我們是覺得"},{"start":22089.504,"end":22107.505,"text":"在我們的評估結果是可及性跟無障礙標準其實在身心障礙的這個學理上其實它算是基本上它是不同的領域的事情那而且這個可及性和無障礙因為涉及到在各個領域裡面"},{"start":22108.766,"end":22138.446,"text":"他是比較沒有辦法由一個單一的部會或者單一的主管機關就去訂統一的指引所以這個部分的話而且在現行的生權法架構底下那在各個領域的部分不管是交通文化或者是住宅或者是其他的部分其實本來在相關的條文對無障礙的部分已經有相關的規定所以我們會建議這個條文就是不是可以不要增訂以上"},{"start":22141.809,"end":22156.081,"text":"謝謝主席我們其實沒有要求立即訂定強制性的標準但是因為過去我們看到其多的法案也有相類似的狀況我們是期待中央主管機關能夠會同各目的事業主管機關參佐一下國際規範跟通通設計的原則"},{"start":22159.284,"end":22187.603,"text":"就是说如果说你们认为精神已经有反应充分反应说在各条文中这个可及性那我也想请你们再比较具体说明未来的跨部会执行因为这个跨部会的执行在解释上你如何要确保标准是一致的因为我们很担心是说后续的执行是各自解读这个我们在别的法案看到了那既然这个是我们特别要去修订的这个法案是在这个地方在这个地方可以"},{"start":22189.544,"end":22207.823,"text":"怎麼樣避免在跨部會在執行解釋上會是不一致的然後各個地方正在執行的時候也不是要各自解讀這個是我們比較擔心的部分署長可不可以再就這個部分再更具體的說明請衛福部回答"},{"start":22212.872,"end":22229.911,"text":"跟陳委員報告因為各領域其實它的無障礙或者是可及性因為它的樣態需求會有一些會可能因為個別事項的不同會有一些不一樣的地方那你這個現在現行的生存法第52條來說"},{"start":22232.353,"end":22255.382,"text":"那这个52条里面就包含的是像修行活动体育公共资讯等等的事项那这些事项里面其实在52条的第3项对不起第4项里面那其实就有要求说对于这些以上这些活动的部分它所谓的辅助或者补助措施的内容施行方式"},{"start":22255.922,"end":22274.291,"text":"那是各中央目的事業主管機關他就要來去訂定相關一些輔助的做法那這個輔助的文字概念上其實就和剛才委員版本的提案所提到的這個不管是無障礙或者是可及性的部分都會有一定程度的關聯"},{"start":22275.231,"end":22302.81,"text":"那在具体的事项部分以这个金融的部分来说其实像金融这个金融的APP或者金融或者是这个提款机的部分那尽管会是持续有一个平台来处理这样相关的事物那或者是在相关的可及性的部分其实个别都已经有相关的会议都已经持续的是在来做相关的处理那所以考虑到那无障碍的面向是在不同的部分有它有这个"},{"start":22303.57,"end":22332.779,"text":"無障礙的處理或者可及性處理方面都有相當的這個多元性跟多樣性所以我們會建議是說這個條文的話是也許可以在個別的主管機關他自己的事項裡面其實大概都有去訂定那行政院其實對於這個可及性的部分他也已經有近期也有在開有相關的會議來去處理相關可及性的這個這樣的議題其實大概都已經有在做相關的討論那以上報告"},{"start":22333.659,"end":22352.418,"text":"謝謝署長說明就是說你認為目前這個中央機關事實上已經都存在存在這個不管是參考其他國家規範或是通過設計原則已經存在這個相關的指引可以供各個主管機關他們來執行就是說這樣子我們是確定說這樣"},{"start":22354.141,"end":22376.548,"text":"就是需求者的身障者的他們的聲音他們的期待是有被清楚的聽到這樣子我最重要的一個精神是這樣就是在執行上不要出現明顯的一個落差那您認為是這個部分是不會有是有既存的這個可以參考的中央已經既存可以參考的一些指引嗎您的意思是您認為是相當已經很相當完善了嗎"},{"start":22380.049,"end":22404.1,"text":"這個跟我們報告我們會有這些機制出來就是現在做的永遠都一定有進步的空間跟有調整的必要所以這個它一定是隨時根據外界大家所反映出來的部分但是現在在處理的機制上那針對這些特定的事項我們已經特別事項大概都在發展相關的處理的機制"},{"start":22404.68,"end":22419.906,"text":"那這個部分的話當然就是有新的議題出來那就一定會去行政部門一定會去因應跟面對謝謝署長我的意思說你那你說你會根據這個他們身上的需求他會與時俱進第二個就是希望是大家有標準一致的標準"},{"start":22420.806,"end":22448.148,"text":"不會說在不同的地方會有產生不同的解釋不同的各自解釋的基本的原則一定是一致的那不過因為在可及性或者是這個無障礙的上面這個也許是道路也許是房屋也許是設備它的這個無障礙的這個基本的原則概念是一定是共同但是具體的做法上可能會有一些不一樣那這個可能就個別要來處理謝謝署長 謝謝主席我們有其他意見 謝謝"},{"start":22449.881,"end":22462.896,"text":"那就本條不予增訂那接下來臺灣民眾黨的第三條跟林月琴的第三條跟范雲委員的第三條 我們並案討論請行政部門先做說明"},{"start":22473.122,"end":22492.816,"text":"各位委員的版本的提案因為行政院的部分這個條文是沒有提案的那針對各位各個委員的調整的部分其實和剛才在第二條第一款的這個是不是要去增列權益保障其實大概會面臨到這個未來條文解讀的問題是很類似的"},{"start":22496.338,"end":22522.469,"text":"那中央主管機關如果是我們把這個所謂權益保障跟福利服務尤其是福利服務的政策把它列為中央主管機關的業務的話那它可能會面臨的就是是不是所有各部會的只要是身心障礙的福利服務會不會都是屬於特定的某一個例如說都屬於中央主管機關在文字的解讀上面可能是會有"},{"start":22523.649,"end":22548.818,"text":"會產生比較多的聯想所以我們會建議是這個在生權法還是一個屬於各部會大家共同來協力中央地方一起來操作的部分的話我們會建議這個部分的文字是不是有可能不要爭列免於爭列以上建議那兩位委員有沒有什麼意見來范瑀委員之後陳昭志委員"},{"start":22553.198,"end":22580.275,"text":"我的想法是其实这些福利服务也是基于让他们有平等的权益所以国际上经常都是用权益来讲的话这些福利也是在协助他们能够有各种包含刚刚民众党条文的可及性比如说我们讨论旅游然后司法等等所以一般来讲会把权益放在前面福利放在后面是更好的"},{"start":22580.675,"end":22605.01,"text":"因为要让他有平等的权益所以才会给他这么多的福利如果没有放权益保障这个好像会感受上觉得是国家多照顾你的不是应该你平等应得的这会给人这样感受那当然就是这部分是我的版本为什么这样写的看法跟大家说明一下以上"},{"start":22607.691,"end":22629.443,"text":"我們在文字上做了調整的最重要原因它其實是反映了我們怎麼樣去看身心障礙者他到底是屬於被照顧的人還是一個能夠主張權利的人這個關鍵非常重要因為在CRPD國家報告的結論性的意見也指出國家審查這個國際審查委員會有指出一個結構性問題就是我國在執行"},{"start":22630.664,"end":22650.046,"text":"直接執行公務員義務時人存在一個比較醫療比較福利的導向的政策的偏誤導致身心障礙者他們人權保障沒有辦法充分的落實而且他的結論性的意見也再三強調國家應該把身心障礙者視為具有完全法律能力的權力主體"},{"start":22650.726,"end":22667.058,"text":"而不是僅僅作為被照顧的人或是被救濟的對象所以我們才會希望說透過一些文字的調整讓中央主管機關在執行這些既有的任務的時候不是說提供服務而是讓權力保障作為一個核心的目的請署長您多體會我們的精神在這個地方那個剎屬署長要不要說明那我的版本事實上"},{"start":22676.86,"end":22694.753,"text":"我覺得剛才不管是范雲委員或陳昭志委員就強調那個權益保障基本上你們也是寫的事實上是全國性身心障礙福利服務然後權益保障政策那我的就是加個語那也就會達到他們"},{"start":22696.534,"end":22710.699,"text":"談得差不多所以我不知道你們的考量是什麼因為分開兩個東西是會更清楚那你們事實上是合在少了那個語就是好像是合在一起所以你們可以針對這個部分再做說明"},{"start":22714.874,"end":22735.683,"text":"跟各位報告我們從衛福部的中央主管機關的角度來看中央主管機關的角色的時候中央主管機關我們會把它定位成是對於通案的整體的權益保障的部分它來做相關的政策法規方案的規劃訂定"},{"start":22737.364,"end":22756.612,"text":"那這邊就會面臨到是如果我們現在如果以這個有委員的版本是把福利服務和權益保障對調的時候我們比較擔心這個單純是文字解讀的問題這個實際操作基本的概念其實我們和委員的想法一定是一樣的"},{"start":22757.412,"end":22771.03,"text":"就是因为把福利服务放到后面的时候就是福利服务的政策法规规划但是福利服务的部分这个所谓的福利服务的内涵可能就会包括到食衣住行育乐各个方面"},{"start":22772.532,"end":22797.512,"text":"那我们比较是怕的我们比较会有一点担心这个时候解释的时候就是它跟后面的那个文字结合起来的时候这个解释上比较容易会有一些这个超过原来预期的想象这是我们比较有我们比较稍微会有一点担忧的地方但是基本的发想对这个条文的发想跟处理我们跟委员绝对是一样的所以我们会建议说在基本结构如果是还"},{"start":22798.553,"end":22806.261,"text":"跟委員想法是一致的話是不是有一個可以不用來調整的這樣一個空間以上報告好 陳昭志委員"},{"start":22808.426,"end":22834.407,"text":"謝謝主席我想說說跟大家簡單分享一下我們在處理外送員的部分的時候也是到底是外送員權益保障還是管理平台當然這個兩個說法都有它的這個正當性但是這裡我們是既然我們要走這個CRPD而且他們的一些建議那如果我們把它先寫成這個權益保障然後福利服務放在後面請問對貴部有什麼困難嗎有什麼困難會造成什麼困擾嗎"},{"start":22839.079,"end":22856.229,"text":"就是說我們主張的是當事者的權益那福利是好像就是他一個被動被照顧的一個方式我們給你福利啊我們照顧你啊這個思考是不太一樣的那請問如果照按照我跟范緣文的建議的版本有困難嗎會發生你們擔心的什麼事嗎"},{"start":22860.492,"end":22883.589,"text":"就是调整啊就是调整这样的一个我们在其他的法案也有同样的一个讨论了说到你讲之前我先来讲一下因为我就要理清一个本来你没有与那件事情你是整个合在一起等于会变成是说这些现行条文讲的是全国性的身心障碍福利服务的福利服务权益哦"},{"start":22884.758,"end":22894.962,"text":"跟就福利服務的權益保障政策所以先第一個是不是先把它分開來再來解決的事實上是因為我覺得分開來是比較好"},{"start":22896.371,"end":22922.325,"text":"講兩塊一個是福利服務一個事實上是權益保障那至於剛才兩位委員把他前後次序調的那個你們考量什麼你再回答可是先來解決一個是說如果把它分兩塊是比較清楚的和你合在一起叫做全國身心障礙福利服務權益保障什麼叫福利服務的權益保障還是一個是全國的福利服務"},{"start":22923.385,"end":22932.47,"text":"跟與權益保障這就會變成分兩塊東西以上 先拜託這邊做說明一個是與 一個事實上是前後"},{"start":22935.334,"end":22960.835,"text":"跟委員報告那現行條文的文字那從我們業務單位的角度來看的時候我們在談的就是福利服務權益保障政策那它其實就是連在一起的東西它其實一體的那就是它就是一個總體那最後就是我們會關注的重點就是會把它擺在權益保障政策那是跟福利服務有關係的部分"},{"start":22962.857,"end":22983.186,"text":"我們會把它當做一體化的來處理但是當然從文字上面委員會建議是不是福利服務和權益保障到底要不要分開這邊大家可以來做一個討論但是一牽涉到福利服務單獨切開來看的時候"},{"start":22983.786,"end":23005.598,"text":"那就会面临下一个问题是这个他会涉及到个别的福利服务事项的时候到底他未来的在做规划管理定定宣导等等部分他是这个个别的福利事项是由中央主管机关通通来处理还是回到跟前面第二条有点类似的就是"},{"start":23006.258,"end":23033.137,"text":"各别的每一个目的事业主管机关其实他处理的都是跟身心障碍有关系的事项那会变成是未来这个所有的福利服务的规划甚至不一定是原来印象中这个卫生福利部中央主管机关的业务的部分的福利规划那到底是这个将来权责到底是会不会因为这样的调整之后"},{"start":23033.957,"end":23058.199,"text":"它會變成全部都由中央主管機關來做來做處理我們大概比較多的部分其實是一個文字解釋上會不會跑出一個原來沒有預期的一個解釋方法這個是我們大概比較我們比較謹慎的地方但是基本的出發點這個中央主管機關本來就應該來做一個統籌的部分我們一定會負起這樣的責任"},{"start":23061.254,"end":23062.219,"text":"好 那個範圍也先好"},{"start":23069.813,"end":23094.843,"text":"了解那个是署长他的忧心但是我们回来看这个法他第一条就说为维护身心障碍者之权益保障其什么什么对不对所以这个权益不会有这样的疑虑那主管机关中央就是卫福部然后直辖市是直辖市政府等等好像我们在第二条的时候其实就把它"},{"start":23095.643,"end":23123.705,"text":"什么东西分属于什么已经讲得很清楚了那之前我们在沟通的时候也有谈到说其他部会如果没有具体被命名的本来也就是卫福部来协调所以我个人是认为说不管有没有加那个语字就是福利权益连在一起还是福利及权益还是像我的版本就是权益放在福利前其实中央主管机关是不变的"},{"start":23124.205,"end":23144.758,"text":"那只是說大家的考量應該要把這兩個概念分開那除了就是國際的身心障礙者權利公約過去也會說我們台灣好像過於重視福利比較沒有權益導向所以我們這時候覺得把權益放在前面會更好那另一方面如果我們回來看"},{"start":23145.958,"end":23161.703,"text":"社會福利基本法他第一條就明定社會福利為國民之基本權利那所以我覺得把這個東西標舉在前面因為權利或是權益所以才有福利那有些東西會是福利可是有些東西可能是一個"},{"start":23162.543,"end":23191.449,"text":"譬如我们刚刚讲的交通的可及性它其实会更像是一个权利而不是个福利因为做了之后你就不用再发任何钱了所以是不是如果没有影响你们的业务的话是不是能够接受大家觉得与时俱进让它更符合国际的公约的概念谢谢我刚刚这样听懂我们的社家属讲的的确如果事实上是"},{"start":23192.714,"end":23214.058,"text":"但過去事實上不是應該講以前是兒少福利法以前事實上是身心障礙福利法福利法後來是有因為不管是CRC CRPD後來就覺得說應該是權益不會只限縮在社政部門所以才開始往外有其他主管機關列出來"},{"start":23214.653,"end":23241.352,"text":"那這一條回來是中央主管機關那就會變成是衛福部那衛福部如果是你們原來的寫法就等於是福利服務的權益還是在福利 服務的權益去做保障可是如果分開來的話會包山包海的所有的那可能前面各主管機關的通通都又回來你們身上那我們要確定"},{"start":23242.475,"end":23270.789,"text":"那因為中央主管機關是衛福部如果要包交通又要包什麼的話那包的進去嗎因為我後來看兒少全法也沒有這樣寫所以就要回來要看委員大家的所以那我的做法是把它放在後邊等於還是以福利服務為主然後才來講其他的權益保障可是如果寫在前面的話會變成說全部包山包海的權益保障然後再講福利服務那就倒過來了就不一樣"},{"start":23271.63,"end":23280.417,"text":"可是你的中央主管機關就是衛福部衛福部還要去包交通部的交通權什麼這些東西嗎這可能又要回來大家可能要討論一下陳昭志委主席還有署長這個法案本來就是一個我們根據CRPD的精神來做他也指出了我們不足的地方那現在你覺得因為這個雲治的"},{"start":23300.382,"end":23322.849,"text":"放的位置會造成某個部門某個部會太加重責任嗎如果我聽起來感覺是是如此那我還是不理解以我的就是為什麼先把權益保障放在前面那福利放在這幾次就這個立法的一個精神那這裡怎麼會解釋成說最後就是一個部門來"},{"start":23324.867,"end":23348.379,"text":"其實那麼多跨部會的那個組織其實最後本來行政院就是要負最終責任那您擔憂的是是您擔憂那不然其他國家怎麼來做這件事我們也是被指證是要這樣子來做啊就是說到底真正的困難會發生嗎你說會墮落在衛福部嗎我沒有理解不好意思我還沒有理解"},{"start":23350.942,"end":23376.789,"text":"來范雲委員我是建議那個主席因為第三條第四條其實都是一樣的這個是不是也許我們先暫時保留最後別的審完之後大家再回來看這個會不會引起中央主管機關的誤解那這樣我們有更多實質其他業務改變的討論好不好如果招資委員同意的話我們先暫時保留先把其他的實質的改變做出來再回頭看"},{"start":23379.37,"end":23403.368,"text":"在第三第四條等一下要一起看可是我覺得還是要提醒因為我們第一條就已經開宗明義如果講說我們有沒有符合CRPD已經在第一條就開宗明義現在第三剛才講的第三事項討論的比較是在中央主管機關我覺得還是不一樣的層次好那我們就三四條合併來談"},{"start":23417.182,"end":23435.917,"text":"跟各位委員報告第三條和第四條的部分委員的版本雖然都是有同樣的文字的處理跟修正但是我們對於第三條和第四條文字上的解讀我們的看法我們對於第四條的部分我們初步的評估是它是比較有"},{"start":23436.657,"end":23465.239,"text":"我们虽然是建议从两个条文如果文字要对照来看我们会建议如果有可能是不是都免于修正但是如果说这个还是要考虑的话第四条的文字我们认为是反而有处理的空间原因是因为因为第四条它是规定直辖市县市主管的事项那在我们前面所规定到的直辖市县市主管机关就是直辖市县市政府"},{"start":23465.999,"end":23488.982,"text":"所以在直轄市縣市政府裡面那這個不管是衛生局、社會局、交通局、建設局它不管這個文字不管怎麼動它的權限不會因為在解釋反而比較不會因為解釋的關係跑說這是誰的比較不容易所以這個因為它最後解釋它都是在縣市政府"},{"start":23489.642,"end":23510.549,"text":"它会在县市政府但是在中央反而因为这个调整的结果会变成是它会不会变成在部会之间会有一个变化解释上产生出一个解读的空间那当然是从文字的一致性来看我们建议比较优先的是不是有可能有机会那是这个免语修正"},{"start":23511.389,"end":23537.304,"text":"但是如果是真的要調整的話第四條其實我們的評估未來其實在解釋方法上面它可能對地方的衝擊跟在中央可能會不太一樣如果第四條如果是我們當然是優先建議是可以維持現行條文但是如果要調整的話第四條的部分反而因為它最後的權責主管機關都是在就是縣市政府"},{"start":23537.904,"end":23561.085,"text":"他不是縣市政府的衛生局或者社會局或者是交通局他沒有這個問題所以反而在這一塊來說會稍微有空間一點以上報告好兩位委員第四條如果衛福不接受那我們就沒有委員有異議的話第四條就先通過第三條就保留之後審完就再回來看有沒有共識嘛對不對這樣就會有進度了"},{"start":23575.961,"end":23578.585,"text":"那先那是不是"},{"start":23582.01,"end":23610.619,"text":"三四條一起保留之後再回來看好嗎好啊我也認為這樣比較好因為否則一樣還有顛倒的問題倒過來的問題即便你接納權益保障的話還是有結果兩個條文字不太一致而且我還是比較認為因為福利服務放在前面比較大的東西因為那才是身心障礙很重要的然後後來權益保障不是不重要這樣放的時候我就還是要去考慮因為他還是需要你們先提供福利服務才知道那個權益保障有沒有做得好"},{"start":23611.979,"end":23633.585,"text":"也跟各位委員補充報告在第四條的部分台灣民眾黨團的提案會有多一個第十林委員和黨團的部分都有甄列第十款就是有關在交織身份的部分文字寫法"},{"start":23634.165,"end":23660.32,"text":"大概有交資身份資源整合的部分那我們的評估是交資身份的話主要跟前面各款比較起來它比較不是所謂工作的事項而是當一個身心障礙者他具有多重身份的時候應該是比較接近服務他的方法他是屬於比較執行層面的方法"},{"start":23661.121,"end":23671.235,"text":"對 它比較不是屬於職權的事項所以我們會建議第十款如果可以的話是不是就免於爭裂以上這個已併再做到"},{"start":23673.332,"end":23695.843,"text":"我的提出來的是身心障礙者同時具備其他社會福利身份是應該整合服務資源提供服務 身障過去很常要使用到長照的資源 常常很卡如果今天他使用這些資源的時候他一天可能碰五個人有各住又有來洗澡又有什麼什麼那對他來講他"},{"start":23697.103,"end":23715.616,"text":"可能兩天他就要接觸到十個人對他的整個身體狀況不見得是瞭解的所以當時為什麼會有身上夥伴會提供我們這一款有他的目的性那我們不是講交織身份我們要達到的就是說他有用這個之後資源本來就可以整合甚至"},{"start":23716.457,"end":23731.495,"text":"後邊才會能有有這個依據才能要求廠商那邊是不是要去調整如果說你在提供身障或特殊需求的或失能者的時候可以怎麼樣的有一些特殊性來做"},{"start":23733.143,"end":23757.967,"text":"所以我認為這個東西我們不會認為應該要拿掉啦就是那只是說剛才講說這兩條要保留到時候再討論可是要先跟你表達說說因為他就有特殊身份不是啊你就很難用啊那他就是身心障礙他就你的資源不足他說要用長照那你造成他很大的困擾就一樣錢花的一樣可是讓他變成是說"},{"start":23759.286,"end":23785.357,"text":"每一天要接觸不同的人各位應該理解就是說我需要很多身體親密的接觸要幫我做這些事情的時候我每天要面對不同的人我覺得這不見得是好事所以才會有這一項我們完全認同委員這樣的一個想法我們也不希望一個被服務的對象他的服務被割裂不過回到條文的設計的時候因為這條本來是設計一個職權的問題"},{"start":23788.979,"end":23808.167,"text":"那我们会建议这个针对这个不管是身心障碍者同时具有其他社会福利身份或者是用交织身份的角度来看的话我们建议这个部分是不是容我们我们用一个附带决议的方式我们把它甄列进来就是这个未来在执行的身心障碍福利服务的时候"},{"start":23808.707,"end":23838.247,"text":"如果這個身心障礙者是有具有其他社會福利身份的話那應該要去做福利的就是服務的方去做規劃去整合去幫他做規劃是不是有這樣的一個空間那如果在方向這個方向可行的話我們來整理一個我們來整理一個附帶決議的文字我們再提給委員來這邊做一個討論好 反正三四條就保留了那你們可以斟酌文則到時候討論的時候一併提供讓大家討論好那我們接下來呢就是"},{"start":23841.309,"end":23857.719,"text":"一樣台灣民眾黨第五條跟范雲委員的第五條我們並還有新疆政動議第二和第二就是林玉琴還有吳麗華的版本"},{"start":23864.869,"end":23870.975,"text":"還有劉建國委員的修正動議 然後來並案討論那請我們的行政部門做說明"},{"start":23879.826,"end":23906.988,"text":"有關第五條的部分行政院版是沒有提案那各位委員的版本則是對於這個在身心障礙者的定義的部分那大概主要的有幾個和現行條文不一樣的地方是第一個是這個是有增加了有長期短暫或間歇有損傷這樣的一個文字"},{"start":23907.768,"end":23924.964,"text":"那這個是其中是第一點然後另外這個武力華委員那還有甄列第二項就是因疾病或傷害至短期活動或社會參與受限評估需求的時候可以準用本辦法顧問規可以做準用的規定"},{"start":23926.806,"end":23938.661,"text":"我們的總體的評估是以身心障礙者權利公約在CRPD裡面的定義的時候它的定義其實本質上就是"},{"start":23939.81,"end":23955.785,"text":"定義的就是一個長期性的損傷所以我們比較不建議是把短暫的部分納進來尤其在升降資源其實是相對比較有限的情況底下的時候那短期的這一類損傷如果納進來的話"},{"start":23957.546,"end":23979.817,"text":"这个反而容易在资源使用上的时候会有一些这个大家会有一个竞争的情形那我们会建议短期短暂或者是短期的部分我们建议比较不要纳进来那至于间歇的部分的话其实我们的看法是它其实在解释上它是就是已经可以被在概念上是可以被容纳下来"},{"start":23980.277,"end":24002.129,"text":"它的这个间歇的状况如果是一个持续性的它会间歇的话其实解释上就是已经可以纳进来去做相关的处理那这边是我们大概先初步做的一个说明然后另外那这个各委员的版本也有委员的版本是提到对于现行条文里面有提到这个"},{"start":24003.03,"end":24021.546,"text":"第一項裡面是有損傷或不全導致顯著偏離導致顯著偏離或喪失影響活動等等對於不全這樣的一個文字那是覺得對於身心障礙者有可能有帶有貶義的意涵那我們是覺得這個部分如果要這個"},{"start":24022.867,"end":24042.583,"text":"不全這樣的文字有這樣的概念的話我們是建議如果可能的話我們會初步建議是不是可以用缺損這樣的文字來做一個替代那做一個更正那這是我們初步的回應所以我們大概有一個建議的文字那目前現在也有投影在螢幕上那請各位委員一併來參考 謝謝陳昭之委員"},{"start":24048.807,"end":24070.385,"text":"謝謝主席我先談到那個您談的不全這個是一個非常標準的醫療名詞那腎功能不全等等肝功能不全的但是如果說這個能夠代表那個意思當然我不一定要強調但是這個沒有貶抑的意思這是一個醫學名詞那這一條我們要強調是我們其實在跟身障團體接觸當中反覆聽到一個共同的問題"},{"start":24070.965,"end":24095.183,"text":"有些人他虽然不是永久性的障碍但是某些阶段某些状态确实会因为功能受限而被排除在整个制度跟服务之外而且CRPD在第一条第二条的精神他这也也指出这个障碍不是单纯来自个人的功能的一个损伤而是功能损伤跟外在环境交互作用的结果那第二次国家报告的结论性意见也特别提醒我国啊"},{"start":24095.943,"end":24117.779,"text":"在政策跟制度設計上還是偏向醫療跟福利的一個看法那對於間接性、暫時性或情境性受限的人支持是不足的他們覺得支持是不足的所以我們黨才嘗試把這樣的概念反映在文字中希望讓定義本身有多一點包容性所以那也希望未來在制度調整的時候能夠逐步思考如何避免這個資格的設計太僵硬"},{"start":24119.941,"end":24126.391,"text":"然後要讓有需要的人被排除在我們的想法基本想法是這樣就是讓署長跟主席了解"},{"start":24128.847,"end":24157.602,"text":"范芸薇我的版本其实就是在原本的条文中的算是第三句话加了长期间歇或短暂有损伤影响其活动与本来的条文是说参与社会生活我加了四个字充分平等那为什么要加这个部分因为我们原本的条文会让人误以为说是一个长期的一个损伤或者是不全"},{"start":24158.782,"end":24176.049,"text":"但是如果你说他有半年可是这个半年到底是长还是短或者一年两年到底算不算长期而且大家知道就是说有些半年或一年之后也可能会延续所以其实重点是如果有人他愿意去被鉴定"},{"start":24176.943,"end":24202.538,"text":"那有足够影响他充分平等生活然后都有这些就是好多项目的部分的话那他如果愿意被鉴定的话那其实应该让这个空间存在因为真的很短期的人你说两个月三个月可能也不会想要这么的麻烦去被鉴定所以就是留一个空间就是说明就是长期间歇或短暂那另外参与社会生活"},{"start":24203.058,"end":24216.244,"text":"参与一点点也是参与但是如果他就是没有办法充分平等参与的话那其实就代表他事实上是需要协助的所以是不是请大家可以考虑一下加上这几个字谢谢"},{"start":24216.94,"end":24245.967,"text":"好來請王玉敏委員我們第5條其實就是在討論身心障礙者的一些定義嗎還有他怎麼樣可以領到這個身心障礙證明那我這邊也要提一個是身障團體的訴求就是說實務上其實有一些孩子他是學習障礙但是他的學習的障礙他得到的資源坦白講是少的就是領學習障礙證明跟領身心障礙證明身心障礙證明"},{"start":24246.727,"end":24270.28,"text":"好用的多他举了一个实例就是像这个社工师的报考就是有一个孩子他其实就是他没有办法书写就没有办法写字但他可以打字所以在那个过程当中他就希望说我们的这一个考选部要申请这个电脑打字结果考选部就说不行因为你没有身心障碍证明"},{"start":24270.8,"end":24291.147,"text":"你只是学习障碍所以就不可以但是这个很明显就是他的这个障碍其实是会影响他的考试成绩的那今天刚好在讨论到第五条的时候这个身上团体也特别提出诉求就是说在实务上你在认定这个学习障碍"},{"start":24291.727,"end":24311.184,"text":"跟這一個身心障礙針對學習障礙的部分現在實務上顯然看出來有些問題了就是他的資源是不足的要嘛就是說你可以去強化學習障礙資源的部分的補強你看很明顯身心障礙跟領學習障礙只是申請打字喔身心障礙可以學習障礙"},{"start":24312.145,"end":24328.921,"text":"不行但是他有书写上面的障碍所以像这个就是一个很明显我们可能资源有不平均的一个情况那生长团体是希望说有一些学习障碍的类型是不是可以纳进来就是到这一个这边可以被认定"},{"start":24329.361,"end":24356.895,"text":"那我覺得這個應該都要考量就像剛剛委員提到的有一些人他是因為受傷他有一段時間他也是處在一個身心障礙者的階段但是可能很多的資源他沒有辦法去使用那這個我覺得我們既然重新來討論這個法就是說我們現在實務上面對到的問題是不是都可以重新大家好好來檢視那如果是整體的資源量不足"},{"start":24357.415,"end":24376.198,"text":"那我覺得是可以從補充這個資源量能的面向而不是一直排除一直排除就是怕大家進來這樣子我覺得應該是可以重新來定義跟思考以上謝謝好接下來王正旭委員好謝謝主席我也稍微回應一下大家剛剛針對第五條所關心到底"},{"start":24377.178,"end":24405.208,"text":"長期 間歇 短暫我以癌症病人為例事實上癌症病人當他被診斷的時候在英國就直接稱他是一個身心障礙者英國的制度是這樣那台灣當然就是如果一個癌症病人經過長期治療他可能會進入到這個身心障礙的階段的話我們在做相關的服務會就可以符合這個身心障礙的需求可是如果他是在新診斷"},{"start":24406.488,"end":24425.405,"text":"前面三個月半年裡面事實上他是最密集在接受治療的過程他這個時候所需要的服務面向是相對來講是重要的結果這個他反而是沒有機會能夠進到這個被服務的範圍裡面那癌症當然相對是複雜他有第一期第二期第三期第四期"},{"start":24426.065,"end":24448.912,"text":"那如果是第四期的癌症病人事實上他是應該是要進入到長期治療一個可能性可是不管怎麼樣通常他的治療還是會前半年所需要的服務量相對是比較需要社會來幫助他的所以針對這一點如何把這個想法也融入到未來我們針對於第五條再做修正的時候"},{"start":24449.492,"end":24470.593,"text":"除了剛剛署長有提到是不是有其他的方式可以把他修正見來或者是用附帶決議的方式來針對或者是用執法來做一些處理模式這個可能大家可以再思考看看因為的確如果他是第一級第二級他可能前面半年處理好後面就康復了"},{"start":24471.233,"end":24488.725,"text":"那他就不會是符合這個需求他對這個需求其實也不需要可是如果他是第三期甚至第四期的患者一般來講他的這個所需要的服務模式事實上是比較符合身心障礙者所需要的服務內容以上好 接下來請我們六位想召委"},{"start":24490.526,"end":24516.062,"text":"然後這個部分我也想要表達一下意見就是其實剛剛行政部門有說覺得損傷或不全是有一點歧視可是我認為那如果你現在寫缺損在障礙界其實也是會有同樣的問題如果你這樣考量的話所以我的意思是說或許我們也可以參照這個CRPD的第一條的人權模式的定義所以譬如說可以叫做本法所稱身心障礙者"},{"start":24517.003,"end":24538.84,"text":"包括但不限於肢體精神智力或感官損傷者其損傷與他人或環境相互作用可能阻礙身心障礙者平等充分有效參與社會好的這個這個概念去看做怎麼怎麼去做修正好我覺得這裡我想要提出這樣子的建議喔因為"},{"start":24540.001,"end":24549.896,"text":"因為如果你如果原本認為說這個損傷或不全都有這個歧視用語的話那我們是不是直接參照CRPD的這個概念去做一個調整好謝謝來請行政部門做回應"},{"start":24554.339,"end":24582.668,"text":"跟各位委員報告這個首先大概說明一下不全的這個部分那這個是在先前劉昭偉在主持相關公聽會的時候其實是先進站的朋友對於這個WORDING他們是覺得這個有貶抑的感覺那這個因為這個條文原來行政部門是沒有提出來那最早的時候其實之所以會用不全這樣的文字是因為"},{"start":24583.508,"end":24599.758,"text":"缺損這個部分在一般的解讀上會比較會認為它原來是它可能是因為某個原因會造成它喪失掉一部分的也許是相關的功能缺損比較容易有這樣的想像但是"},{"start":24601.079,"end":24626.664,"text":"我們在身心障礙者裡面可能有一部分的其實它並不是因為這些外在原因有可能是因為先天的也有可能是先天性的結果但是這個先天性的就沒有一個比較沒有所謂的過程性的問題所以當時是把損傷和不全這樣的一個去並列的時候大概是想要原來那個文字是比較有想要去呈現這樣子的一個目的但是這個wording也沒有這個對於"},{"start":24629.113,"end":24655.744,"text":"本来本意没有要对身心障碍者有任何贬义的想法但是这个身心障碍者对于这样的一个我表述的方式他还是希望能够是不是有在那天的公听会上是希望有没有一个不同的表述方式所以我们在今天的会上在今天审查的过程我们在经过检讨我们说我们会建议说是不是考虑用缺损这样的一个改用缺损这样的一个"},{"start":24656.264,"end":24684.566,"text":"文字來做一個調整這個先做一個背景的說明那第二個就是短暫的部分確實是如同王委員所提到的這個短期的部分不管是因為癌症或者是其他原因這個甚至是有可能騎摩托車因為交通事故他可能要幾個月的時間那這段時間都有可能會這個外觀上看起來他會不方便"},{"start":24685.347,"end":24703.006,"text":"那但是這樣的情況我們在總體從這個總體社會資源的角度來看的時候我們是不是需要把它納進來的話那因為我們的看法是目前總體對於身障的朋友來說我們希望把能夠是不是有機會把這個"},{"start":24705.309,"end":24726.181,"text":"這個相所有的這些資源更聚焦在這些它是有比較長期比較這個需求性更高的那因為在如果是有些透過醫療或者是透過這個醫療後端的急性後期的照顧他有機會去做恢復的話現在不管在健保或者是這個健保後期的PAC的部分"},{"start":24727.121,"end":24749.348,"text":"大概都已經有一些可以協助他們的地方所以我們大概最主要的建議是先不把這個所謂的短暫或者是短期這樣的概念放進來我們是覺得是不是有機會在這個資源的使用上面能夠更加的聚焦這個大概是我們一個初步的想法以上跟委員來做"},{"start":24751.209,"end":24768.27,"text":"報告那學習障礙的部分的話跟網友報告其實在現在的身心障礙鑑定制度裡面它在第一類的細分類裡面不管是閱讀功能或者書寫功能其實注意力不全的部分其實它是有被列進去的"},{"start":24769.652,"end":24786.79,"text":"所以如果他是真的到一定的程度照理講他是可以經過鑑定然後被認定為身心障礙那應該是可行的但是我們知道現在在社會上其實有很多他其實是相對在比較很輕微的階段"},{"start":24787.811,"end":24803.514,"text":"有些是在很轻微的阶段例如说英文小写的B跟D它会镜像的反射这一类相对比较轻微的那会不会是我不确定会不会有些是这种状况不太容易被也许是程度的问题不太容易被鉴定进来"},{"start":24804.094,"end":24828.851,"text":"或者是可能是訊息的不充分不曉得他可能程度到了但是因為訊息的不充分不曉得可以去做鑑定但是我想實務上目前在鑑定的類別裡面是已經有放進來所以你們是有讓有一些已經遇到學習障礙的可以進來一併鑑定是可以鑑定的那這樣連身障團體都還不清楚那你們的這個宣傳可能"},{"start":24832.354,"end":24850.033,"text":"要再更用力一點因為他們還特別拜託我們來持續的努力對他們還特別拜託就是而且實務上他的確遇到這樣的情況就是他持這一個就是學習障礙證明他就是沒有辦法這個考選部就不提供這個打字的服務今天教育部有來嗎"},{"start":24851.127,"end":24880.082,"text":"然後在考試院的部分那個應國考的部分的話是不是可能就要拜託我們今天有來嗎如果是不是有出席有出席是不是回憶一下來講一下就是他已經跟考選部申請結果還是是就說你沒有申請障礙證明所以你看我們相關的部會其實也是蠻僵化的就說不可以他在學校都可以申請打字但是為了應國考他去考設公司他說沒有辦法"},{"start":24880.542,"end":24898.849,"text":"報告委員報告主席就是考選部的部分呢就是我們通常在認定身障的部分還是要身障的那個證明但是如果他有學習障礙有這樣的需求的時候我們有一個叫做特殊處境處理原則他可以依照這個來申請然後我們一樣會送給專家學者去審核但是你們給他打回票了說不可以"},{"start":24900.95,"end":24927.816,"text":"對我現在不知道他是哪一個單項考試那是不是社工室的再請問一下他們當初的處理流程是什麼所以可以申請其他的我們的特殊處境處理原則還是可以做其他方面的處理如果他不是如果他非伸張屬於非伸張的部分對啊他是學習障礙對他如果有書寫閱讀的障礙的話還是可以做其他的考量可以申請電腦達字嗎他只要有書寫跟閱讀障礙都可以但是要經過審核還是要經過審核"},{"start":24930.811,"end":24930.972,"text":"還是要經過審核"},{"start":24938.857,"end":24960.995,"text":"所以你们还是以身障为前提吗我现在在跟你讲就是说有一些他可能在这个中间他是血洗障碍他也是他不是说天生肢体上面的产权他就是血洗障碍他在书写方面会比较困难所以在考试的时候打字才会对他有利因为他如果要慢慢的这样子书写他会有缺漏那这种类型到底可不可以"},{"start":24961.175,"end":24986.386,"text":"我们用特殊处境处理原则是可以的但是还是要经过专家来审核因为它涉及到公平性的问题因为这个案例他自己在脸书就PO出来他说就是被考选部拒绝那可能看他个案当初经过委员审核的情况是什么我们现在不清楚那你们应该回去检讨好不好就是说如果是这种学习障碍连他们在鉴定的时候都开放这一个类型是可以一起鉴定那考选部你们就不应该执着只有身心障碍证明"},{"start":24986.846,"end":25009.089,"text":"所以我们另外有一个叫特殊处境处理原则可以做另外的处理肺肾脏的部分这个案例我请他们再去找你们看他当时是遇到什么问题这是肾脏团体转过来很具体的个案先请范园委员发言之后我们的廖昭伟然后再来王振旭范园委员"},{"start":25011.416,"end":25032.309,"text":"我剛剛聽到那個州署長的回應是擔心說資源不夠所以希望聚焦在長期的身心障礙者可以理解你想要聚焦這個用心是好的可是其實我們在講的事情是說有時候你那個網開大一點有一些非常需要的人他才有機會進來"},{"start":25033.83,"end":25062.02,"text":"那因為大部分很短暫的他根本就不會想要這麼的麻煩去被鑑定那你竟然有一個專業團隊鑑定的把關機制那為什麼不在這邊把這個長期間歇或短暫然後放入那當然剛剛委員其他的委員講到說我們的努力應該是要增加這個資源不要讓大家覺得資源不足然後好像還要一定要聚焦在長期因為他今天如果"},{"start":25062.62,"end":25087.375,"text":"半年一年那他如果真的非常的影響他的就是參與活動跟平等參與社會生活的話那他又願意去鑑定為什麼不把這個空間給他像剛剛王醫師的例子非常好在英國癌症的初期就自動會是一個符合這個身障的資源那我想就是有些人可能在某些地方他就需要用"},{"start":25088.436,"end":25111.117,"text":"身障的車位或是等等那你與其在這邊讓他連這個被評鑑的機會都沒有不如就是說你在評鑑的時候再把關程度的差異你要怎麼處理那在這裡先讓他有這個空間那能夠照顧到其中有一些雖然不是長期可是非常需要的人以上好接下來請我們廖委長召委"},{"start":25112.27,"end":25139.931,"text":"然後這個部分我也想要幫這個障礙團體發表一下意見我認為可以這樣子修改啦因為我也認同說要把這個資源聚焦沒有錯但是可以這樣子修改他們說本法所稱身心障礙者只具有長期之肢體精神智力或感官損傷應該損傷與環境或態度之障礙相互作用至阻礙其"},{"start":25141.172,"end":25149.505,"text":"在與他人平等基礎上充分有效參與社會者我覺得是不是可以考量這個方式接下來王振旭委員"},{"start":25154.517,"end":25175.817,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席我也稍微再回應一下剛剛範圍委員所提出來的一個想法其實無立法委員他在這條修法裡面的最後一項他有期待期待如果真的是符合所謂的間歇短暫的部分那有沒有用執法來做另外的規範"},{"start":25177.179,"end":25194.82,"text":"我要提出來還是以癌症為例即使癌症病人他現在放射治療是一個重要的治療模式他會在半年裡面需要密集的去接受每一天一次到兩次一個禮拜五天這樣的治療模式以前很有可能就是讓他去住院"},{"start":25197.065,"end":25215.657,"text":"可是我們不期待這樣的病人住院治療可是他還是需要有相對的需求存在這個時候如果用變通的方法讓他能夠有機會來接受比較完整的服務模式事實上他可以節省更多的醫療資源導致這邊造成的影響"},{"start":25216.677,"end":25242.155,"text":"我意思說如果我們有一些變通的做法或者是在法律上可以給予適當的支持的時候其實對這一群人是相當有幫助的那我們也都很理解所有的資源應該是要用在最適當的地方可是他其實他並沒有不適當只是說我們怎麼去看待這個事情而已以上好 接下來陳昭志委"},{"start":25245.61,"end":25269.322,"text":"謝謝主席我很想繼續說服這個州署長第一個長短期其實你要去定義這個短期其實當然你要把它區分但是區分老實說你有辦法非常明確嗎第二個就是說我要提醒也是在衛福部長那個巴氏量表那個我們除了年老者我們也有一個剛剛王醫師一直提到的就是癌症第幾期之後"},{"start":25270.442,"end":25279.808,"text":"我們也是就是說得免八十兩百那為什麼因為他需要需要被照顧嘛那你現在如果完全排除這個部分我覺得身障者那個期待會真的會很會落空他們他們需求的時候你現在就完全不排完全排除了那這個做法還是你有什麼方式你到底是我不知道逐漸導入公不公平我不知道但是就是說完全排除是對他們是還蠻難過的"},{"start":25297.779,"end":25317.816,"text":"那再來就是說我們現在醫療剛剛因為提到醫院現在跟我們的身體的功能那當然醫療也不關係你知道我們現在醫療也是都主張不是住院方式治療我們現在很多前進到包括王醫生剛剛講我們都前進到盡量在醫院停留一段時間然後就回家"},{"start":25318.476,"end":25343.635,"text":"那這種東西有時候就是持續性的一段時間因為治療不是一輩子的治療那這個時候其實真的是很需要有很需要這個來提供這是他們需要的一個服務所以我請署長再思考我剛剛講的這幾個點包括八字輪胎為什麼也在這個某一群病人也把他打開了除了80歲以上也把他打開了一定有他的這個理由謝謝"},{"start":25345.956,"end":25368.992,"text":"我想兩邊都談了蠻多我認為現在就是先休息十分鐘請好等吳立華委員發言完之後我們就休息十分鐘來請到時候請衛福部重新考慮文字思考有沒有更能夠周延的定義或來讓委員知道再做溝通好那來吳立華委員"},{"start":25369.172,"end":25385.577,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席因為第五條到第七條是這一次就是藏權團體他們非常重視的所以我也提出修正動議那希望可以讓藏權團體的法案他們的想法可以一起被討論"},{"start":25386.497,"end":25397.981,"text":"是這樣子的就是長期以來他們感受到的就是很多的障礙者他想要獲得一些合理的調整支持服務或者就業輔具的時候很容易就會被問說你有證明嗎就被擋在門外所以這個部分其實他們也有一些他們的看法"},{"start":25405.243,"end":25424.425,"text":"那就是希望說藉著這一次的這個帳權法的大修那我們能不能夠就是從一個要求人們不斷需要去證明自己不夠障礙的社會走向一個願意檢視制度是否本身就造成阻礙並主動移除這些阻礙的一個社會"},{"start":25425.206,"end":25454.208,"text":"所以這一次的修正我是想說採身心障礙者權利公約的人權模式全面去涵蓋面臨環境阻礙的障礙者因為障礙者不是只有存在個人身上他是損傷跟不友善環境交互作用的結果這個也讓我想到一個例子因為我過去在學校服務就像我們的營養午餐攪不起這種從過去一定要拿中低收入戶證明"},{"start":25455.169,"end":25481.384,"text":"其實後來就改成只要村長或只要導師願意幫你出具證明就可以了那我覺得對我們的這些帳權人士來講身心障礙者來講其實我們在其他地方都能夠給出這樣彈性的措施我覺得更不應該在這樣的法裡面去看到各式各樣的不友善跟障礙應該是要更能有大的彈性 謝謝"},{"start":25483.564,"end":25489.673,"text":"好 宣布現在休息十分鐘然後請我們的行政部門跟委員們做溝通 以上"},{"start":25503.513,"end":25504.054,"text":"反正我現在可以"},{"start":25522.195,"end":25531.018,"text":"謝謝大家收看"},{"start":25540.162,"end":25558.968,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":25584.259,"end":25585.46,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25586.78,"end":25589.301,"text":"我的意思是說因為之前大家已經"},{"start":25616.772,"end":25617.893,"text":"所以我現在"},{"start":25649.169,"end":25661.099,"text":"行政跟跟這個"},{"start":25670.4,"end":25682.911,"text":"這個第一項可以用它的這個方式然後第二項啊事實上是原的表文是它這裡經營資助所以這下面這東西每個都是保存的所以它那個現實的經營資助都還可以"},{"start":25685.913,"end":25706.442,"text":"對,對,對"},{"start":25713.024,"end":25728.709,"text":"好,好,好,那你們就是第八個,我本來是想說,"},{"start":25730.17,"end":25754.728,"text":"謝謝 因為這個參與感會是不夠突破的那時候會不會很不幸因為相關關鍵是他們的核心是這一輩子才能夠爭取那個重點威脅那你覺得這次的參與感會是在什麼地方需要進步的好 好 好好的 比較關鍵的就是這次的參與感會是在什麼地方"},{"start":25759.451,"end":25777.363,"text":"這張圖是在2014年10月1日拍攝的。這張圖是在2014年10月1日拍攝的。"},{"start":25786.447,"end":25793.31,"text":"我覺得這樣就好了"},{"start":25806.614,"end":25820.282,"text":"但是如果他沒有"},{"start":25826.824,"end":25830.285,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25846.969,"end":25852.19,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25883.426,"end":25889.391,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":25894.275,"end":25918.507,"text":"5,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,6,7,"},{"start":25920.187,"end":25939.791,"text":"這個不確定法律概念"},{"start":25953.054,"end":25969.959,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":25975.362,"end":25975.602,"text":"主席"},{"start":26011.606,"end":26012.187,"text":"副市長"},{"start":26031.026,"end":26035.811,"text":"在學校的時候是特生,然後就我出了社會,然後我就變普通人"},{"start":26055.099,"end":26058.621,"text":"學校特訓"},{"start":26063.114,"end":26082.21,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26085.072,"end":26091.196,"text":"副主席"},{"start":26112.091,"end":26118.264,"text":"他們兩個都在那邊廁所靠近"},{"start":26121.988,"end":26144.974,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26150.555,"end":26165.247,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26172.044,"end":26185.293,"text":"所以你會聽到我的話"},{"start":26207.024,"end":26208.145,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":26215.189,"end":26236.947,"text":"請稍後再講"},{"start":26245.367,"end":26275.367,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26275.367,"end":26293.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26321.226,"end":26342.904,"text":"好 我們繼續開會第五條因為這個公約裡面說這個是長期損傷嘛那委員的版本通常是什麼短暫的間歇那他們都是說不要用這樣子齁那那個廖長偉剛剛有用這個東西有一個建議"},{"start":26368.058,"end":26372.06,"text":"第五條行政機關是有針對委員的意見提案"},{"start":26373.392,"end":26387.162,"text":"修正的部分有在做一些文字上的一個調整對不對 修正對 螢幕上請各位就享越電視上的螢幕的文字"},{"start":26397.813,"end":26416.618,"text":"要不要先請署長還是次長要補充這個如同剛才在休息前跟各位委員報告我們去查閱了一下CRPD身心障礙者權利公約對於身心障礙者的定義"},{"start":26418.559,"end":26431.373,"text":"這個定義裡面基本上它的概念也是以長期的損傷當作其中的一個元素所以我們比較針對各委員的版本的提案我們還是建議"},{"start":26434.815,"end":26460.723,"text":"我們現行條文文字其實雖然沒有寫長期但是在鑑定的時候都會要確定它的障礙的狀況尤其是委員在提案的版本提到的短暫的部分我們會比較建議是不是有機會是不要納進來"},{"start":26461.903,"end":26489.32,"text":"那有關在間歇的這樣的一個情況的時候其實我們是覺得其實在鑑定的時候在鑑定方法上面它是應該是可以處理因為它如果是一段時間只是這個情況有好有壞這個部分這種狀況我們覺得它其實是可以去處理的不管是這個精神性的或者是其他的它這一類狀況在鑑定技術上面應該是可以處理的"},{"start":26489.8,"end":26509.788,"text":"所以我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能還是儘可能的我們會建議優先是不是先維持現有的維持現行的條文那這個對於短期的部分是不是有要能夠去給他更多的協助的部分"},{"start":26510.428,"end":26525.37,"text":"那我們的想法是縱然在這邊定義不一定納進來那或許是將來在相關的計畫或者是有的這個在資源容許的情況之下也許個別性的計畫我們是不是也許有機會"},{"start":26526.491,"end":26547.257,"text":"除了在現有的不管是健保或者是這個急性後期相關的照顧之外如果有還有額外的資源的話那也許可以在個別的計畫裡面我們來嘗試著是不是就這個不一定要透過立法在直接計畫的階段就有關短期的部分我們再來嘗試做一些相關的處理以上"},{"start":26548.601,"end":26576.43,"text":"好 謝謝再請廖昭偉因為你剛剛在講短期長期的問題所以我是覺得第一個現在的這個條文用的方式比較像是用醫療模式或者社會模式來定義這個所謂的神經障礙者那我們覺得還是應該要像這個CRPD的人權模式的定義但是所以我剛剛講一個就是說你也可以解決你所謂短期長期問題我們照他的去稍微去修正也就是我剛剛念過了"},{"start":26577.591,"end":26592.79,"text":"本法所稱身心障礙者只具有長期之肢體精神智力或感官損傷那應該損傷與環境或態度之障礙相互作用至阻礙其在與他人平等基礎上充分有效參與社會"},{"start":26594.252,"end":26608.569,"text":"我覺得第一項可以寫這樣那後面的包含你所謂的這個後面的相關的規範或是相關的這個怎麼去鑑定這件事情其實還是就是還是可以保留只是你把定義上讓他更"},{"start":26610.111,"end":26626.594,"text":"更有這個跟國際節約委更有這個人權模式的基礎這樣子我的建議是這樣那這個部分我相信我們的劉昭偉他的再修正動議也是類也是一樣的概念對我們默契都很好請行政單位跟我們也默契一些好再請王育民委員"},{"start":26630.176,"end":26642.822,"text":"第5條剛剛大家其實討論蠻多的那我覺得委員們其實要的是一個就是因為你現在你一直強調長期其實他就是一個比較僵化的模式我必須這樣講就是說你很嚴謹"},{"start":26644.022,"end":26670.47,"text":"然後就是你只會針對的確是長期他會長期持有身心障礙證明者去提供服務但是實際上整個社會的運作你會發現說有些人他會因為疾病或者是傷害的確他會變成是也是一個身心障礙者但是在你的現行的整個運作底下會變成他們可以得到的支持跟服務相對是就是等於是被排除啦"},{"start":26671.05,"end":26699.973,"text":"比較多是被排除除了有一些是醫療的可能例外還有一些之外所以我是覺得剛剛那個署長講的蠻好的你說你們可以透過一個計劃那我的意思是我們可不可以在這個法條裡面最後就是加一項就你剛剛那個計劃的概念就是說如果有因為疾病傷害有點類似吳麗華委員提出來這樣一個概念就是把它寫在這裡面那如果"},{"start":26701.246,"end":26723.739,"text":"不是寫在這裡面至少附帶決議也要寫或者是立法說明要寫因為我覺得我們現在重新再回來看生權法我們就不希望有一些他明明已經是跟身障者遇到同樣的處境但是他又得不到一些相關資源的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":26725.017,"end":26737.085,"text":"就是剛剛署長提的是一個類似一個你又一個專案計劃你有彈性針對這一類型的他可能沒有到長期但你也願意去去提供有一些的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":26738.174,"end":26764.336,"text":"因為我覺得剛剛委員要的跟你們堅持的有一點難融合在一起那是不是可以經過大家討論有類似這樣的一個因為原來吳委員這邊提的也是授權讓你們就是說你們可以另行再去訂一個計劃就是他一樣因為疾病或傷害他有也社會參與整體都受限了"},{"start":26765.632,"end":26786.789,"text":"我是覺得這個條文看起來相對合理就不要去改你們前面你們前面你們很在意我們去改你什麼變成什麼短期啊短暫啊間歇啊你們不希望更改前面嗎等於是說前面都不動你的情況底下我們再增加就是像這樣子你們可以考慮看看我覺得大家距離蠻遙遠的所以這樣"},{"start":26789.781,"end":26816.944,"text":"來 請市長那個主席還有各位委員大家好那個我從早上聽到現在我要第五條的定例我現在先說幾個我的觀察好不好第一個CRPD基本上是視同是一部憲章它是一個convention或是一個charter它的位階是這樣可是我們現在定的是法律我是希望大家能夠我們都希望衛生障礙權利好"},{"start":26817.705,"end":26822.292,"text":"但是問題就是說我們要訂的是一個實際可執行的具有可操作性的"},{"start":26823.069,"end":26852.068,"text":"好那在法律我們現在目前最讓大家最重要的爭議就是說這裡面第五條牽涉到的是有關聲音障礙者定義還有怎麼去用ICF的方式去找出來為什麼因為你領到這一個聲音障礙的這一個證明之後你有會牽涉到他是一個給付行政啦你會牽涉到很多很多的權利還有政府端必須要出去的出去的義務包括第一個保費的補助健保保費各項的保費補助第二個稅負的減免第三個大眾運輸"},{"start":26853.55,"end":26875.491,"text":"票價一連串的一個整個Welfare Benefit好所以我們現在目前就是說這個Certification的一個整個它會牽涉到整個資源分配所以這一點我必務必要請委員要這個要這是第二點第三點剛剛講的最重要事實上是一個問題就是說ICF的鑑定裡面除了剛剛講的長期這個毫無疑問大家都同意"},{"start":26876.272,"end":26892.381,"text":"可是現在有問題現在就是說有一些不確定的我說不確定我等一下再請我們這一個負責ICF的這個金梅副市長他跟大家報告一下就是說在裡面有一些borderline的一個部分我現在舉個例子中風你看中風大概大家都知道它黃金治療期是三個月可是它是可逆的"},{"start":26893.402,"end":26907.131,"text":"對不對他三個月之後經過一個Medical Rehabilitation之後他可有可能他本來是在可能二到八級他可能五六級之後還有可能會是可逆的那你現在這個時候你在不確定的情況之下你硬要塞給他一個診療證明我認為這裡面"},{"start":26909.813,"end":26925.747,"text":"可能也要甚至還有比如說我現在比如說有精神疾病可是我現在經過到某一個level之後積極的治療或消極的治療之後它在一定時間之後還是有可能回過來我是覺得這一個對於這個所謂的不確定的這個部分"},{"start":26926.468,"end":26950.647,"text":"我是覺得應該我等一下是不是可以允許讓那個青梅這邊你簡單跟大家講一下就是說這裡面實務上面的一個遷到的問題那是不是我們現在目前的顧慮也可以跟委員這邊能夠大家能夠求取一個平衡點但是我現在必須要講CRPD是一個convention你現在用了convention你用憲法來規定來他當然是我們的根本大法可是他不能去"},{"start":26951.528,"end":26963.486,"text":"具體試用上面這會牽涉到權力義務請允許我引一個不太好的案例不要弄到後來這個變成是一個聲音障礙權力的壯士代法"},{"start":26965.558,"end":26983.674,"text":"對啊你現在弄到後來你本來就是有一個要我們對於行政機關而言我們要的是要有清楚的一個界定因為我還是要強調一下行政機關這裡面簽到這個整個行政法的作用以及相對應的權利義務關係所以這一點請大家要慎思謝謝請青梅跟大家簡單說明好來請說明"},{"start":26987.802,"end":27009.114,"text":"這邊是衛福部照護師那我們這邊有負責身心障礙鑑定作業那依照身權法的第五條跟第六條的一個授權我們定有身心障礙鑑定作業辦法那其實在本法或者在我們鑑定作業辦法裡面都沒有特別去強調拿到身心障礙資格或是要去鑑定必須要"},{"start":27009.674,"end":27027.769,"text":"看三個月六個月或多久 這個要先聲明這一點雖然在CRPD裡面強調是一個比較長期的一個概念但是我們在生權法或相關的執法都沒有特別去限定它的一個鑑定的一個條件我們只有在鑑定作業辦法裡面"},{"start":27028.269,"end":27051.777,"text":"有要求要做鑑定的時候要持有鑑定表還有三個月內的就醫診斷跟或者是相關的就醫紀錄可以提供我們的專科醫師做相關的判定他的身體的一個系統構造或者他的功能的障礙的一個狀況這是第二個要強調的那另外在我們鑑定作業辦法裡面的副表我們只有針對因為我們有八大類"},{"start":27052.697,"end":27077.624,"text":"那我們特別針對特殊類因為類別的這個差異性很大所以特別針對創傷或罹患慢性精神疾患就像剛剛次長說的他可能會造成一些身體構造會功能損傷他經過治療之後他沒有辦法矯正或脫離這個顯著的失能所以醫師他可以推論他未來可能不可逆就可以給他證明這還是回到專業的判定"},{"start":27078.204,"end":27104.031,"text":"另外針對罕見疾病我們特別針對六歲以前如果他出生就是已經這個是被診斷是一個罕見疾病的一個狀態我們希望他六歲以後因為這一段他經過早療的一個治療評估以後或許他還有一個可逆的情況他希望六歲以後能夠再鑑定一次那還有一個特別的就是針對排汗功能或是燒燙傷這一類的"},{"start":27106.512,"end":27131.713,"text":"大面積的燒燙傷他經過一個積極的治療譬如說穿過這個壓力衣等等他還是沒有辦法恢復那我們就會給他所以我們根據各個不同的類別就給這個在建議評估的部分有個建議的一個觀察時間都沒有去限定多久才可以做鑑定這是主要的一個法治上的一個精神要跟各位做報告"},{"start":27132.433,"end":27148.921,"text":"那如果說委員這邊建議說有一個什麼長期短暫或三個月內寫在這個母法的文字反而會限定了這個大家對於這個短期三個月或間歇這樣的一個不明確的一個概念還有後續操作上的一個問題再請次長補充"},{"start":27156.229,"end":27164.615,"text":"那個簡單說明剛剛我們那個經理副市長他簡單講就是說我們的鑑定作業裡面都沒有特別定義就是說一定要半年或一年才能拿到評估我要強調"},{"start":27166.164,"end":27191.197,"text":"最重要什麼東西呢你只要持有鑑定表在三個月內就診記錄去跟醫師那邊我們就可以拿到所以程序上面來說這個反而是有彈性的而且醫師基本上都會以醫病人最佳利益所以你現在目前訂了一個不確定的法律概念在裡面所謂而且醫學上面medically沒有辦法去確定的那個什麼什麼什麼什麼遠期什麼東西反而會造成整個認定上的混亂這是第一點另外第二點"},{"start":27191.957,"end":27217.503,"text":"我知道就所有聲音障礙者一定都希望都是認為自己都是長期啦我講我背就是這樣啦就好像學生都認為我自己的成績一定是100分可是這裡面還是要經過一個鑑定程序跟考試程序而那個鑑定人要嘛不是醫師要嘛不是老師要嘛就是某某人這個對不起這個就是一個程序上面必須要有的一個整個程序"},{"start":27220.613,"end":27225.883,"text":"這個我也必須要把行政機關這邊相關的SOP也跟各位來做一個報告 謝謝剛剛社長這樣"},{"start":27234.569,"end":27263.53,"text":"隱喻我覺得有點怪怪的事務上可能在整個檢定認定上的一個行政作為我覺得這個這個可能事務上的一些問題這個我倒可以接受不過我講總之這樣子認定自己是永遠都長期的比喻考試100分這個有點奇怪的這個批論怪怪的請小心批喻我是覺得是這樣三個月六個月有再來一個法條嗎"},{"start":27268.579,"end":27296.078,"text":"對有委員提到什麼三個月六個月這個在第五條沒有行政院版的沒有修那委員提案的修法是在第五條建議加改成有這個三個月還有六不是因為因為院版沒有知道那其他委員有有大眾的版本是提到所謂三個月六個月的這樣的一個沒有啊也沒有人提到這個東西啊"},{"start":27297.361,"end":27309.016,"text":"所以我說的也一定對各位給行政機關再做一個參考我想為什麼為什麼很多人都要參照這個CRPD的第一條"},{"start":27311.16,"end":27331.79,"text":"這個市長可能大家要互相能夠理解當然不需要把一個法例定到像憲法那種未接然後導致很難去好像很抽象然後又很廣泛然後又講到好像未接很高到時候藍瑜去執行我想委員本也不希望發生這種事情"},{"start":27332.33,"end":27347.524,"text":"不過他的面相應該是這樣是說從醫療的一個模式走向到人權的這樣的一個模式也從這個醫療病理特徵列舉的疾病改為社會模式所以就有所謂的長期的損傷加"},{"start":27350.247,"end":27375.368,"text":"這個環境的障礙應該是這樣的一個一個範疇他島部沒有再講到所謂三個月六個月的這樣的一個或許是不是有剛好有單一的個別委員有提到這樣的一個認定那這個我們尊重這個東西如果要把它納入確實有檢討的空間那第二個部分是說因為我們是要修就要修得更好所以是要接軌這個整個國際的人權標準"},{"start":27377.682,"end":27399.054,"text":"因為我們當然也讓醫師來做專業的一個鑑定所以就是依賴所謂的醫療鑑定但是有些是不是會有些漏網之魚就導致許多受限在社會環境但未符合醫療標準的障礙者卻被排除在保障之外"},{"start":27401.761,"end":27414.538,"text":"這個大家是不是可以思考一下有沒有這樣的狀況這樣的實例等一下我再來做就像市長剛剛的列舉所以是確認障礙是損傷與環境態度與障礙交互作用的一個結果"},{"start":27416.059,"end":27444.566,"text":"CRPD是在處理這樣的一個這個定義的範疇是在講這些事情然後我們是要擴大這個保障的光譜所以才會有一個新的定義功能受限與社會參與障礙所以這是意味著即便沒有特定疾病的名稱但是只要他是長期身心受損身心損傷且在這個社會互動中面臨障礙者僅應被我們政府把它視為應該保障的對象的一個主體"},{"start":27446.105,"end":27465.761,"text":"然後最後就是希望透過這個我們的法律文字的一個修正轉變也是宣示國家政策從治療矯正個人然後轉向這個移除社會障礙來維護障礙者尊嚴所以到底文字應該怎麼樣來修我當然也是期待行政單位可以有"},{"start":27466.587,"end":27476.901,"text":"有一個比較好的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個個"},{"start":27482.328,"end":27496.759,"text":"最終的一個比較好的一個版本那最後是這樣就是說我們原有這個領有身心障礙者證明的這個對象事實上他還是可以透過第六條的修正去規範還是避免既有這個服務的範圍無限擴大"},{"start":27499.04,"end":27527.267,"text":"第7條也應該可以來做這個適度的擴大範圍 透過審查方式來檢核沒有證明的心臟者應該享有一定程度服務這應該是有分做層次的567在第5條第6條第7條所以我也敬請各位委員是不是可以再對照一下 再看一下567我們再來處理這第5條那我們就先行針對第5條保留好 謝謝"},{"start":27530.224,"end":27544.997,"text":"來次長請請說請說非常同意那個剛剛主席的一個才是還剛剛各位其實我基本上也認為就是說過傳統的確實是醫療模式所以我們在這一個我們的ICF裡面的D碼跟E碼我跟各位委員報告在2024年7月的時候"},{"start":27547.178,"end":27565.345,"text":"D碼跟E碼主要事實上就是剛剛主席剛好特別談到了就是有關於那個社會環境社會環境等等這些因素還有環境因素我們都有把它納入了這個是一個比較大的一個改變這個7月就已經開始也不錯補充說明 謝謝7月就今年的7月嗎2024的7月"},{"start":27568.906,"end":27593.069,"text":"就是我們裡面有幾個編碼其中剛剛委員剛剛所說的環境跟社會因素我們在七月就已經開始編入所以他在做ICF裡面就不純粹僅只是他的醫療個人那邊的問題而且會考慮到剛剛講的環境跟社會來做總體的三方面的評估生理生理還有環境還有社會三方面共同評估以上謝謝"},{"start":27594.01,"end":27600.139,"text":"好 謝謝次長的補充說明謝謝 沒關係我們第五條還是先保留啦 謝謝那我們繼續來審查"},{"start":27603.32,"end":27626.388,"text":"院板所提的第六條然後委員羅美玲 劉建國蔡玉 何欣淳還有陳清輝 林月琴 吳麗華盧憲一 李坤城等還有修正動議有第一案就是委員林月琴對不起 委員盧憲淳所提的修正動議還有修正動議第三案"},{"start":27627.228,"end":27633.753,"text":"也是林岳勤委員所提 還有行政動議第12案 李建國委員所提那我們先請行政擔任來做說明"},{"start":27639.428,"end":27667.211,"text":"針對行政院版的修正第六條的修正草案其實主要都是針對在鑑定申請流程過程中他需要去這個主要是文字去做一些相對的調整主要的修正重點在第二項的後段他是授權事項上面能夠去做更明確的表述包括身心鑑定人員的資格條件使用的鑑定工具及"},{"start":27667.731,"end":27682.675,"text":"在身心障礙無法減輕或是恢復的一些基準那我們在這邊能夠有更明確的授權那各個委員的版本的部分那其中針對盧憲毅委員的提案的部分有提到"},{"start":27686.71,"end":27701.019,"text":"這個鑑定的部分要去有相關的使用的語文的部分那這個針對這個部分依照國家語言發展法的規定那這個本來就是可以使用相關的國家語言國民在參與"},{"start":27702.88,"end":27716.896,"text":"政府機關構行政程序的時候可以使用這個國家語言國家語言是有包含原住民族語言的那必要時候可以來使用同意的服務所以這個部分等於是在這個國家語言發展"},{"start":27717.517,"end":27743.862,"text":"不管在原住民法或者國家語言發展法裡面已經有相對應的一些條文可以來做處理那這個部分如果有需要的話我想在執行面的部分那也可以來協我們怎麼樣來協助目前現有的鑑定的機構來能夠在這個部分能夠做到更精緻化那另外針對吳立華委員的修正動議的部分有針對這個"},{"start":27752.417,"end":27766.935,"text":"有提到是沒有取得身心障礙證明他也可以使用若干的一些相關的服務那這個部分的話這個大概跟現在鑑定的做法上面"},{"start":27768.276,"end":27786.168,"text":"這個以本法來看大概都是先會處理到經過鑑定符合資格的時候那再根據他的需求來去提供相對應的一些能夠去服務的處理那這個部分的話在現行的結構上面會有很大的不一樣那會變成沒有"},{"start":27786.989,"end":27810.938,"text":"等於某種角度會解讀成是他不是身心障礙者但是可以使用身心障礙服務那怎麼樣去認定這個非身心障礙者的他可以使用服務的範疇的部分這點在現在的操作上面會有比較大的一個空間會有一個比較大認定上面的一個技術上的困難"},{"start":27811.658,"end":27835.809,"text":"那我們召委的部分的第六條大概也是有提到這個部分的條文的修正的草案那我們是建議這個部分可能在處理上大概也會有類似的處理上的一些困難那所以我們會建議是不是可以依照行政院版的這個條文來做通過 以上好 謝謝處長的說明來請盧縣立委"},{"start":27841.873,"end":27860.445,"text":"謝謝召委就是就修正理由就是因為原住民族長者跟生長者常因為到都會區產生語言不通或是對主流社會的測驗工具比如說認知功能的評估不夠熟悉導致鑑定的結果失真所以應該在法條中明定考量語言文化的特性"},{"start":27861.045,"end":27885.798,"text":"有具文化敏感度的專業人員協助以充分保障原住民族族人取得正確的身障身分跟相對應的福利所以我在第一項部分據點之後就是增加對原住民族身心障礙者鑑定應考兩級語言文化特性必以慣用語言進行必要是應有具原住民族文化敏感度的專業人員協助來增加這幾行字 謝謝"},{"start":27888.99,"end":27914.417,"text":"對好謝謝盧委員還有哪位委員沒有那如果沒有是不是請署長再針對盧委員的提案做個說明就盧委員的提案的部分這個語言的部分的話那個因為考慮到現在在那個國家語言發展法裡面有相關的規範而且委員提到事項其實有"},{"start":27915.977,"end":27929.987,"text":"我們會建議是從執行面的部分我們怎麼樣來做一個加強那因為規定現在不管是在規定上面語言發展法或者是我們現在身心障礙鑑定的那個鑑定書鑑定申請書上面"},{"start":27931.829,"end":27946.488,"text":"對於這個申請鑑定申請人他使用的語文上面其實他是使用哪種語文其實在一開始就會把它列進去所以鑑定機構在一開始應該就會知道他所需要使用的語文種類"},{"start":27947.649,"end":27970.391,"text":"但是確實如同委員所提到有些鑑定機構可能在遇到尤其在都會區的時候如果是遇到這個原住民族然後比較高齡他需要做語言協助的部分可能在資源上面是比較不充分那我們會建議這個部分因為他是比較偏重在執行事項的部分我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能"},{"start":27971.071,"end":27998.326,"text":"我們用一個附帶決議的方式把這個部分要加強的部分怎麼樣來加強這些相關機構的訓練以及資源的補充的部分那我們把它做成一個這個附帶決議來做相關的處理來 我們來做這樣的建議不知道是不是可行 以上OK 好如果你同意用附帶決議那那個文字的話我們是不是我們來做我們先來處理一下我們再來給委員這邊來做一個過目"},{"start":28000.542,"end":28028.416,"text":"好那第1個條件看起來大家沒有多大的意見所以基本上就尊重依照院版來通過嘛那個再請行政單位提出這個互待決議的文字之後再來做最後的確定好謝謝那我們繼續審查院版所提第7條然後有委員羅美玲 劉建國"},{"start":28029.922,"end":28054.168,"text":"臺灣民眾黨 臺灣民眾黨團還有蔡宇宇 何欣淳林月琴 范雲 吳麗華 王育民盧憲一 萬美玲 李坤城等的委員的這個提案修正那還有修正動議是修正動議第一案是盧憲一委員所提還有林月琴所提的"},{"start":28055.6,"end":28073.607,"text":"這個修正動議第4案還有劉建國委員所提的修正動議第12案好我們請行政單位來做說明行政院版的修正條文第7條那這個部分主要的修正內容"},{"start":28077.799,"end":28094.304,"text":"大概都是針對文字的部分去做相對應的處理那各委員的版本的部分有比較不同的地方那只是第一個是吳立華委員的版吳立華委員提案的版本和吳立華委員台灣民眾黨範圍委員版本是將這個"},{"start":28097.825,"end":28116.974,"text":"提案因素裡面主要是家庭經濟情況或者家庭生活需求這樣的把家庭兩個字去做刪除我們主要是考量到在評估的過程裡面他所需要的看到家庭裡面的"},{"start":28118.895,"end":28145.888,"text":"生意障礙者在家庭中的在家宅裡面生活的狀況的時候那這個除了個人當然還是會有需要含括到整個家庭總體的情況所以我們建議這個家庭的部分這樣的文字我們是比較建議先不要予以刪除那另外包括王詠明委員 萬美玲委員有建議到在需求的評估的過程裡面"},{"start":28146.528,"end":28168.926,"text":"把就業輔導的需求是不是能夠納進來我們是建議的是說因為在鑑定過程裡面大概先初步的時候比較以目前的主要鑑定的機制都是針對比較憑他現有的功能性的功能或者是疾病的狀況的部分來做相關主要鑑定的內容"},{"start":28169.446,"end":28183.603,"text":"那如果是把就業的部分納進來的話他會有一點難度的是說這個以現在鑑定機構的鑑定能力跟他在就業時的狀況來講可能在鑑定的技術上面會有一定程度的困難"},{"start":28184.344,"end":28200.123,"text":"所以我們是建議這個就業輔導的部分是後續在他曾鑑定成為身心障礙者之後他所提供的服務在他的需求裡面不管是未來他可能需要的輔具或者是"},{"start":28201.524,"end":28219.137,"text":"這個職場上面的一些工作的調整相關的需求等等在服務面的時候再把就業輔導的部分能夠把它增訂進來但是不用在一開始鑑定端的時候把它拉進去這樣比較容易會增加這個鑑定上技術上面的一個難度"},{"start":28220.498,"end":28237.509,"text":"這個我們會建議是不是有可能先不用納進來那盧縣議委員也有提也有這個版本他提到的是這個對於原住民的生活型態的部分所以在是不是要把它納進來那我們也是考慮到說在鑑定過程裡面這個"},{"start":28239.23,"end":28266.825,"text":"后续的一些生活需求的部分可能还是针对在未来服务端的时候再来做相关的提供那在前端鉴定的时候是不是有可能我们就聚焦在它的功能和疾病的状况那我们来做相关的评估那总体我们会建议另外这个在修正动议的部分武力华委员的部分已经纳进来然后我们召委的部分"},{"start":28269.667,"end":28294.454,"text":"有提到的那朝委的部分也是提到對於有包括了對於這個衛林有身心障礙證明的他有申請植物再設計或者等等其他的需求的服務那這個單位要去做可以去做相關的評估需求那我們是建議這個第一個是一樣就是"},{"start":28295.194,"end":28324.101,"text":"如果他是沒有領有身心障礙證明現在在植物再設計的部分其實勞動部已經有在提供相關的即使是不一定是有身心障礙證明但是有提供相關的服務那第二個是他還是比較聚焦在後端服務的部分我們是進行在鑑定的階段那是不是可以就先不把他拿進來以上報告來各位針對第七條來林耀勤委員"},{"start":28326.648,"end":28342.851,"text":"我這邊第七條我的建議是把第二項的家庭經濟狀況的家庭刪掉和家庭生活需求的家庭刪掉為什麼因為第二項的身心障礙者的社會福利身份是"},{"start":28343.251,"end":28364.481,"text":"只比較是個人專屬性的那本法你的服務跟保護的目的在於支持身心障礙者為日常的生活所以需求評估應該以個人需求為考量不應該去考慮那個家庭經濟家庭生活需求為必要所以會比較符合本法立法的目的所以我們認為要把這兩個字刪掉 以上"},{"start":28367.807,"end":28388.505,"text":"來請陳昭志委員謝謝主席我們第七條提出來主要原因是第二次國家報告的結論性的意見當中國際審查委員還是有提醒我們目前的這個身心障礙鑑定跟需求的評估制度還是偏向醫療化比較著重在功能損傷本身但對實際生活的需求掌握相對是不夠的"},{"start":28389.526,"end":28407.438,"text":"那事實上我們都知道說兩個障礙類型會程度相同因為真的因為他們不同的因為經濟條件家庭支持生活環境的不同需要的協助可能也很不一樣所以我們是希望在評估的時候不要只看醫療報告也多能了解那個當事人生活處境以及他所需要的支持系統"},{"start":28408.819,"end":28424.489,"text":"這條文本身條文本身是持開放但是重點是這個方向要不要往方向走未來的制度設計上是不是可以慢慢以個人需求為核心的評估方式來進行那這個部分我們是不是請次長也能夠針對這一塊再做個回應謝謝"},{"start":28429.382,"end":28445.595,"text":"還有其他委員嗎沒有 那我們請次長回應還是署長來 請跟各位委員報告在這個需求評估的階段的時候委員有建議是不是把家庭刪掉"},{"start":28446.335,"end":28460.772,"text":"那考慮到目前現在各項的福利服務的總體大概在制度通案性上面大概各類的福利服務在輸送的時候大概都經濟尤其在經濟情況的部分大概都是以家庭為單位來做思考"},{"start":28461.372,"end":28482.695,"text":"所以在第二項這個經濟的部分家庭經濟的這個部分我們建議家庭兩個字可以我們還是建議盡可能是保留但在後面接下來在家庭生活需求的部分如果是家庭生活需求的部分的話我們是覺得因為生活真的是每一個人自己的狀況每一個身心大概是自己的狀況"},{"start":28483.576,"end":28510.583,"text":"所以我們是建議我們是覺得或許是在生活需求前面的那個家庭兩個字可以刪除那不過這邊也看到吳立華委員的版本裡面有提到就是除了刪除家庭生活需求刪除家庭但是有增列家庭支持的部分那我們是覺得這個部分應該是可採所以如果說在可能範圍內我們就建議第二項的文字"},{"start":28512.723,"end":28535.275,"text":"是不是可以做這樣的處理就是前向需求評估因醫生性障礙者障礙類別程度家庭經濟狀況照顧服務需求生活需求社會參與家庭支持需求等等因素為之"},{"start":28540.687,"end":28556.991,"text":"那這個大概建議的這個文字那我們現在也有投影在那個螢幕上面那請各位委員來做一個參考以上來各位委員請看一下文字的修正來請次長"},{"start":28562.672,"end":28592.064,"text":"我再簡單回應一下剛剛那個陳昭志陳委員我完全同意完全同意這個方向那我也跟委員報告就是陳副剛剛主席剛剛所說的ICF我們的整個CRPD最重要的精神就是陽氣醫療模式然後呢就是把社會還有環境因素把它納入那我跟委員報告我們現在目前ICF陳副我剛剛說2024年7月我們開始第一碼就已經開始把它納入第一點第二點我們現在目前根據這ICF裡面所說的他的相關的need assessment"},{"start":28592.604,"end":28601.633,"text":"需求評估的部分就是我們會就是陳如我們剛剛在上面所說的我們會調查這一個身障礙者他的這一個家庭經濟狀況"},{"start":28603.632,"end":28623.016,"text":"服務照顧需求生活需求社會參與還有家庭知識就是說他是一個我們用這種全人的概念去做需求評估當然我同意可能我們現在目前這邊會做的可能還不足那我們會遵照委員的一個指示方向我們繼續再往這邊就是把social dimension的部分繼續再把它強化以上報告謝謝OK來請委員再請歡迎委員我覺得這邊"},{"start":28631.816,"end":28654.068,"text":"當初我們會要拿掉那個家庭經濟情況這個事實上是比較考慮的是有時候整個你要去橫估他的負擔比事實上可能整個家庭裡邊我不知道你怎麼去考慮如果要拿掉的話我"},{"start":28655.461,"end":28670.335,"text":"我比較 否則你就要覺得是不是家庭及個人經濟情況因為如果成年人在這個家庭裡邊到底真的是這樣這個家庭到底要怎麼去支應他這是我第一個第二個是"},{"start":28671.056,"end":28693.074,"text":"增加了家庭支持需求是什麼意思一個事實上家庭要去評估的是他家庭支持能量如何和一個是我需要家庭支持我覺得這兩個又是不太一樣的如果你說增加家庭支持他去評估他家庭給他支持的狀況是什麼和一個是我從我的需求面來講家庭"},{"start":28693.875,"end":28710.065,"text":"家庭支持需求我覺得這四個字跟六個字是有一點落差的所以各位也請社安組補充做說明 以上再請歡迎委員"},{"start":28715.322,"end":28739.842,"text":"我的部分主要是因為當時我們在那個社會福利基本法的第7條的時候規定福利服務應以人為本以家庭為中心以社區為基礎我記得這當時還討論了很久要不要以人為本然後要不要刪除以家庭那當時大家覺得還是以人為本但是家庭的支持還是蠻重要的"},{"start":28740.342,"end":28759.66,"text":"所以我的版本這邊是把原本的家庭生活需求改為家庭支持需求那當然這個有很多個空間可以來討論可是我是覺得在這個階段拿掉家庭似乎也是那個脈絡不夠完整"},{"start":28760.12,"end":28782.756,"text":"那用那個支持的角度來看是不是也能夠讓就是藏權者他能夠得到的權益跟福利是比較完整的也考慮比較周全我是這樣就是說因為這是評估嘛那如果他沒有家庭支持他事實上可能就需要更多的協助我是這樣理解好謝謝好"},{"start":28789.46,"end":28811.158,"text":"來 請王志旭委員主席好 包羅剛剛林委員跟方委員的想法家庭目前我們如何去定義家庭有沒有比較明確的比如說一等親一邊要住在一起或者是他是在同一個戶口之下"},{"start":28812.559,"end":28825.65,"text":"我是針對這個精神來看的話我們怎麼去在這個處理的過程裡面去知道說這個家庭目前的支持程度是給予哪一些的成員以上"},{"start":28831.788,"end":28860.526,"text":"請說明 來 謝謝這個針對各位委員就有關家庭支持的部分我們覺得文字是可以納進來我們大概針對這個文字我們的想法是這個所謂的家庭支持需求就是這位身心障礙者他所生活的家庭那麼從外部需要給他什麼樣的支持我們大概比較沒有我們大概在做這個需求評估的時候我們比較沒有去去舉動說除了"},{"start":28861.626,"end":28880.775,"text":"倒不是说是家里面的人可以给这个身心障碍者什么样的照顾支持比较不是从这一块就是说对于因为从整个在他会包括到从外部对于整个家庭里面是不是也有一些可以去支持这整个家庭的部分"},{"start":28881.535,"end":28897.588,"text":"身心障碍者整个家庭的部分我们大概会从这边除了因为对照前面我们把那个生活需求的部分从家庭生活需求把它列把家庭删掉的话那这一块大概就会比较聚焦在对于身心障碍者本人的部分"},{"start":28898.248,"end":28923.032,"text":"那對於這個身心障礙者所生活的家庭是不是也需要有一些相關的支持那我們就增加了這樣一個家庭支持需求的文字那這個是我們大概當初在做文字整理的時候一個初步的想法那也提供給委員 以上好 各位有沒有其他意見再講一下"},{"start":28926.844,"end":28944.802,"text":"對 他先舉手 你先拿麥克風你看人家怎樣處理謝謝主席這麼公道好 那個 我再補充一下我還有一個小的修正剛剛我自己漏掉了就是原本的現行條文是家庭經濟嘛那我拿掉了家庭這兩個字"},{"start":28945.703,"end":28960.676,"text":"因為我覺得經濟好像不能期待說一定要去評估整個家庭的部分那請大家能夠考慮一下我想這個部分就涉及到我們怎麼看這個評估然後怎麼樣能夠最精準的協助到以上謝謝"},{"start":28964.301,"end":28992.088,"text":"我剛剛本來就是在講這個剛好范宇又在講因為剛剛你們回應我的是說就是覺得不需要所以把整個經濟狀況只納入到經濟狀況這幾個字眼把家庭刪掉那我是要加你們現在確定不刪了嗎我們剛剛建議的文字在上面我們是生活需求部分前面那個家庭可以刪經濟前面的家庭我們會建議保留我們建議是這樣"},{"start":28996.51,"end":28997.07,"text":"經濟情況你如果考慮家庭經濟情況的時候往往有時候你去橫估家庭狀況"},{"start":29023.82,"end":29044.814,"text":"不見得他成年人到底家庭一定會協力嗎像這樣狀況就是現在會變成他們的一個很大的處境所以我剛才為什麼會講是說第一個要刪掉另外一個如果不要刪掉的話家庭然後呢要還要考慮到他個人的經濟狀況不是你考慮家庭你就不會提供給他"},{"start":29045.735,"end":29068.424,"text":"可是他的家庭對他沒一定不要去想像每一個如果我們18歲的確他是他的義務跟責任可是如果是成年的時候真的事實上是這個家庭義務責任如果家裡手足或者是他的父母對他置之不理的時候那這個如果你的評估會是什麼可是你把家庭拿掉的時候就會有這種狀況"},{"start":29072.13,"end":29097.108,"text":"我知道委員現在目前那concern有兩個重點第一個現在就是分析單位問題到底家庭經濟單位裡面你要算個人還是要算household就家戶這是第一個重點另外第二個重點我現在先澄清一下我們現在目前生活需求那是以他個人為中心的是individual但是我們在這邊特別強調是要家他是畢竟是生活在一個家庭裡面所以我們政府"},{"start":29098.309,"end":29112.807,"text":"有必要去supporting他的family透過他的family再支持他所以我要先把這兩個層次先把它分清楚至於就是說前面所說的那個就是說分析單位到底是individual還是household這個我知道國內外大家都辯論得非常非常多"},{"start":29114.609,"end":29134.307,"text":"當然對於身障礙者比較有利當然是算individual當然這個是怎麼樣我覺得我應該態度上是開放簡單來講還有另外一個也回應剛剛王正希委員裡面講什麼叫家庭家庭社會學裡面的定義同居共死者為之為家庭這是普遍的定義我就簡單先同居共死者"},{"start":29135.063,"end":29159.246,"text":"是 你簡單回應的話那到底支不支持我剛剛提的就是我要把家庭兩個字拿掉這點我保持開放好不好因為我覺得經濟情況你可以去評估它整體經濟你特別強調家庭的時候好像把這個責任都要放在家庭裡邊我覺得這也不是社會保障法 社會救助法也一樣的問題啦但是我必須要說就是說我們現在目前"},{"start":29160.607,"end":29176.602,"text":"今天全部都這樣啦我們現在目前我現在目前還是強調家庭責任至於是怎麼樣這個我是保持個人保持開放態度以上謝謝所以次長是用個人民意回答還是這個身份所以我現在就針對這兩個字"},{"start":29181.177,"end":29202.65,"text":"我們還是會跟各位委員建議那經濟情況的部分我們會建議維持是家庭那因為這個它有一個以現階段的狀況上其實我們理解很多這個身心障礙者他會覺得是不是用個人狀況也許在認定上對他會比較有利"},{"start":29203.61,"end":29222.003,"text":"那但是他但是在行政面以現行的狀況來講目前所有的不管是社會救助或者其他各種的相關的目前絕大多數相關的津貼身障老服或者是真的相關津貼大家認定上都是以還是以加護為主"},{"start":29222.663,"end":29249.665,"text":"所以以目前的情形來講它會有一個相對一個比較便利的地方不見得是有利但比較便利的地方就是它如果在現有的機制身分上已經被認定的時候它就不需要額外在這個需求評估的階段重新再去評估單獨去評估一次它的經濟狀況這個在行政上便利的地方是它會有一個小小的優點那第二個就是"},{"start":29251.667,"end":29272.629,"text":"以現在實務上對於身心障礙者的照顧來說一樣有很多有些人是他自己也許要靠自己但是也一樣有很多的身心障礙者他是得到自己的家庭的支持所以在考慮到這樣的情形之後在這樣的情況之下其實在社會救助法裡面對於"},{"start":29273.851,"end":29288.692,"text":"這樣的一個這個它如果是有一些特殊的狀況它的家庭裡面的資源沒有辦法算進來的時候那麼在這個我如果沒錯應該是社會救助法第五條第三項第九款"},{"start":29289.733,"end":29309.526,"text":"我們一般習慣上把它叫做539條款有這樣的一個規定對於有一個特殊的狀況的時候它有一個特殊的認定機制所以如果在這邊來看我們會優先建議是不是在這裡經濟狀況的部分能夠把家庭能夠維持下來以上報告"},{"start":29311.636,"end":29319.062,"text":"好你已經我還是要再講我只是要提醒我沒有讓你造成什麼困擾第五次花園請說"},{"start":29323.177,"end":29345.433,"text":"就加一個因為我就可以寬列如果你認為要那樣的話那至少是不是家庭及個人經濟情況一併去考慮我覺得身障本來就我覺得在目前台灣社會還是處在比較弱勢處境不要把認為家庭一定會去照應他們即便是同住一個家庭"},{"start":29346.414,"end":29368.898,"text":"所以當然我們都知道說他身為他家人應該負擔起這個責任在可是如果我們站在他是身上的個人的角度上來看不是在他有需求的時候政府不是還是要去介入嗎所以如果那樣的話我覺得是不是可以再加就是加三個字及個人"},{"start":29373.081,"end":29393.369,"text":"來 請行政單位思考 如果沒有辦法馬上討論沒關係 我們就先保留了好不好 就差那三個字還是要做慎重的決定以致失差千里小心一點好 那我們第7條就先保留那繼續審查院版所提第10條委員煥雲許富奎"},{"start":29396.605,"end":29414.071,"text":"羅廷偉 羅美玲 劉建國還有台灣民眾黨的第10條還有第10條之一還有蔡玉瑜 何新淳 廖偉祥林竹英 陳清輝 林月琴 歡迎委員所提的第10條也一樣一併10條之一一併來討論 還有委員吳麗華"},{"start":29419.127,"end":29434.119,"text":"王玉民 盧憲一 萬美玲 李昆城 那修正動議的部分有修正動議第一案是盧憲一所提 還有第六案是林月琴委員所提 還有第十二案是委員劉建國所提 那我們併案一併來討論來請刑事單位先做說明"},{"start":29441.289,"end":29465.5,"text":"行政院版修正條文第十條那主要是針對主管機關在相關的事務的委員會或者組織等等的會議上面他的要求是要組成的情況那這一次我們做了一個相關的修正那比例上面會叫現行的條文有一定程度的提高"},{"start":29467.341,"end":29492.938,"text":"同時也參採了先前外界各界的意見對於身心障礙者代表的部分我們也納進了要包括兒童或少年組成的比例的部分我們只是在以往現行的規定的話對於尤其是身心障礙者的人數的部分我們這次修正了以後在第二項的第二款裡面"},{"start":29496.64,"end":29517.028,"text":"身心障礙者的代表以及身心障礙的人數是不可以去少於這個組織委員總數的二分之一那也要兼顧各障礙類別的均衡那這個部分我們大概就比例的部分我們去做了一個調高那各委員的版本"},{"start":29519.809,"end":29545.357,"text":"總體來說大概有的委員的版本是要求身心障礙者三分之一那也有的委員版本是身心障礙者要二分之一那或者是也有像范雲委員的版本有提到在這個開會的時候有一些必要的一些協助措施包括像會議的環境會議的資料的一些協助等等那在這邊總數的部分我們"},{"start":29547.978,"end":29566.215,"text":"第一個是已經比現行的條文有提高了相對比較多那也對於這個參與的人員的部分也有比較高的類別的人員的種類包括年齡層有更多元那族群別這個包括"},{"start":29568.337,"end":29587.55,"text":"以及人數占總體人數的比例的部分都有一定程度的提高那委員那這個部分的話我們是建議在比例的部分是不是可以參加行政院版的版本那而另外在這些委員的任期的部分那也有委員像范雲委員有提到"},{"start":29588.29,"end":29602.166,"text":"委員的任期的部分是不是要做一定程度的限制那這個部分的話我們是目前來這個在行政上操作的時候我們是可以來努力的來朝這邊來去做處理"},{"start":29603.007,"end":29627.439,"text":"那最後一個各委員的版本大概跟行政院版比較大的不一樣的地方就是這些身心障礙者代表產生的方式那行政院版的草案大概都是用目前沒有特別去寫大概是維持各個組織他以往的聆聘的方式那這個委員的版本有的是要是不是可以用公開選舉"},{"start":29628.82,"end":29650.767,"text":"或者是要用選舉或者是用其他的方式來做那在前一次我們召委所召開的公聽會裡面那我們也覺得這個怎麼樣去讓這一類身心障礙者代表的產生能夠更寬 能夠更多元所以我們重新思考了一下我們覺得這個"},{"start":29654.729,"end":29676.608,"text":"這個方向我們很願意努力的來操作那當時在公聽會上我們也提供了一個意見是說是不是可以用一個類似公開推薦廣開來公開來推薦的方式然後在後面來做處理所以我們在這邊也提供了一個除了行政院版的文字之外我們再提供一個修正的文字"},{"start":29677.448,"end":29704.865,"text":"現在投影在螢幕上就是我們建議是不是在第十條的第一項的部分那我們是用以公平開放之原則來聆聘身心障礙者至於是要用推薦或者是用選舉的這個部分這個具體的方式可以開放出來給包括中央相關的機關或者是地方政府"},{"start":29705.605,"end":29715.972,"text":"給它有一個運作的彈性但是我們把一個基本的原則我們把它框定下來我們會建議是不是可以多增加一些文字那以上請各位委員來參考好"},{"start":29718.678,"end":29739.383,"text":"來請王育民委員再請陳昭志委員謝謝這個第10條這個主管機關其實有納入這個委員的版本那我這邊之前我在質詢的時候就有特別提到就是兒少的身心障礙者跟成人他的需求是不一樣的所以我當時就希望是兒少可以進來那我現在看到你們的"},{"start":29740.183,"end":29763.721,"text":"修正的版本有但是你們用一個掛號包括兒童或少年我覺得這樣的呈現方式對於兒少的主體性來講有一點不尊重因為我原來的這個條文裡面是兒少身心障礙者它其實也是一個就是特別在把它獨立出來但你們現在的寫法你就是用一個跨乎就是把它跨乎起來"},{"start":29764.381,"end":29786.017,"text":"然後以下就再也沒有出現兒少身心障礙者的字眼我是覺得這樣比較不妥我是建議回到我的版本是不是直接可以把兒少身心障礙者就直接寫出來就是兒少身心障礙者跟身心障礙團體代表這個應該是區隔開來的這個是我的建議"},{"start":29786.778,"end":29815.488,"text":"那我覺得有兒少為主體的這些身障的代表我覺得是一個進步的象徵 以上謝謝再請陳教授委員謝謝主席這條障礙者團體他們非常在意我猜想因為趙委你也非常清楚他們最重要的想法是認為在主張在法條當中要明確保障就具有身心障礙者身份的本人"},{"start":29817.029,"end":29835.81,"text":"參與的比例不是也不是團體當中其他的家屬代表家長等等或其他人因為整個身障團體當中很多團體裡面不全是身心障礙者本人這個是身心障礙者他們非常期待的部分那也希望這個戰略能夠達二分之一以上我看到這邊文章是寫"},{"start":29837.551,"end":29860.598,"text":"這邊的原文是寫不小二分之一那大概就是差一個就是二分之一以上或二分之一那尤其是還是原住民代表我還想是必須替他們講話就這個包括原住民代表就是說這種交織性也是一個很需要被考慮就原住民代表本身他也是身心障礙者這個情況這個也應該有保障一個名額所以我的重點我想再談一次就是說"},{"start":29861.298,"end":29872.53,"text":"具有身心障礙者身份的本人參與的比例是他們非常重視的部分不是誰去代表他就是他本人他們本人來代表以上好謝謝陳哲偉再請李耀勤委員"},{"start":29877.116,"end":29903.717,"text":"好 我這邊大概就是還是如果你們在執法當中會去提去解決萬年委員的問題那我們非常樂見那就請支持我的附帶決議那至於那個我認為提高身障代表跟身障者比例來到那按二分之一以外另外如果要保障身障者的比例因為只有他們自己切身比較能夠知道他們的狀況"},{"start":29905.678,"end":29921.952,"text":"就像我們現在兒少團體會去參與兒少委會事實上也邀請了兒少本身來參與所以我們會覺得說如果所以我希望說身障者必須要有二分之一才會符合身障身權公約所認定的身障團體的定義"},{"start":29922.953,"end":29946.538,"text":"所以我們希望說本來你的團體就佔了整個就是我的條文是寫前向身心障礙者代表學者專家民間團體的機構團體代表不得少於總是二分之一那又從這邊的二分之一裡邊要有身障者的事實上要佔二分之一也不是整體全部都二分之一所以是不是應該去考慮而且應該去兼顧各"},{"start":29947.818,"end":29976.989,"text":"障礙類別的均衡這也是那天公聽會要提出來可是當初他們希望本來還是要用公開來選舉可是我認為不需要那現在這個問題也解決了以後你們大概在執法裡面會去考慮到那個我剛剛提的萬年委員那只剩下這一個比較大問題是在於到底同不同意具有身心障礙者自己本身具有身心障礙身分的應該要不得少於二分之一以上"},{"start":29978.717,"end":30000.752,"text":"好 謝謝那現在來 署長要再先回應是不是還是怎樣對 請回應好 跟各位委員說明那這次行政院版修正第10條其實就是希望擴大身心障礙者能夠參與的比例所以可以如果對照現行條文其實它是有明顯的提高"},{"start":30001.613,"end":30021.041,"text":"那這個大概在表述的方式上面容我再稍微做一點說明就是因為現在在行政院版的第十條裡面可以去參加這類會議的參與者的類別包括了身心障礙者代表身心障礙領域的學者專家民間團體 機構團體代表跟目的事業主管機關的代表"},{"start":30028.384,"end":30044.138,"text":"我們之所以會在第二項的第二款裡面我們製作這樣的處理的時候我們的想法就是其中這個第一項裡面提到身心障礙者代表身心障礙者代表是不是一定是身心障礙者"},{"start":30045.559,"end":30072.7,"text":"其實以現在運作的狀況可能有一小部可能有少數他不一定是具有身心障礙身分例如說他可能是家屬他可能是這個等等這一類的情況但是這一類既然他是以身心障礙者代表身分被遴選進來的時候那麼他的角色應該就是要就是要來協助身心障礙者這樣的一個角度來處理 來看待"},{"start":30073.36,"end":30091.916,"text":"所以我們在第二項的第二款裡面我們是把身心障礙者的代表跟其他各類的這一類參與者的總數加起來裡面如果有身心障礙者加起來合計他是一定要超過所有委員總數的二分之一"},{"start":30092.797,"end":30121.376,"text":"我們大概的算法我們大概建議的方式是這樣那這個部分這個是我們大概是建議的一個方式那這邊可能會面臨那這個我們把我們大概原來想法先跟委員這邊來做一個報告那第二個是剛才林瑞卿委員這邊有提到有一個這個所謂萬年委員的部分那委員也有一個附帶決議的提案那我們這個基本上大方向"},{"start":30121.716,"end":30139.76,"text":"我們是支持的那文字上面我們可能會有一些比較小的調整這個是不是要用是不是要把公開遴選或者輪替機制會用一個比較這個更有相對來說這個選遴選方式彈性的部分有一個稍微彈性一點的表述方法"},{"start":30140.44,"end":30165.778,"text":"我們會建議這個部分是不是用擴大推薦這樣的一個方式來做一個處理另外就是年齡跟地區的代表性的話其實我們是覺得這邊大概在操作上面因為現在在我們的條文裡面已經會把兒少納進來這個部分的話我們而且有考慮到地方政府的操作的部分"},{"start":30166.958,"end":30178.183,"text":"這個委員的附帶決議的部分我們建議年齡跟地區如果可以的話是不是可以不列進來那其他部分我們基本上這個附帶決議我們是支持的那做以上的報告"},{"start":30181.499,"end":30200.267,"text":"那你們那個我剛講那個條文裡面你那個兒童或少年用一個跨乎你為什麼不要直接名列兒少身心障礙者我們可以配合好不好就是身心障礙者頓耗兒少身心障礙者不要用個跨乎這樣有點太比例兒少好不好好來請王正旭委員"},{"start":30211.339,"end":30240.058,"text":"主席 主席要請教說 在第一項裡面並沒有包括身心障礙者這幾個本身因為你是用代表嘛 然後又在第二項的第二款裡面才會把代表跟身心障礙者合併不少於二分之一 那這個有沒有文字上認知上的一種落差 意思就是說你代表嘛 你代表不一定就是本人啊 可是你又在第二項的第二款又把那個"},{"start":30241.018,"end":30260.686,"text":"身心障礙者又把它又獨立列出來我對我來說覺得怪怪的我不知道大家覺得怎麼樣對啦 他現在有在修了還是 欸 又挑掉了沒關係 讓他修正之後給大家再做參考他剛剛就身心障礙者 喔 又挑掉了"},{"start":30286.702,"end":30297.911,"text":"如果配合兒少法的文字的話是不是就用兒童及少年變成一個類似專有文用一個專有名詞的方式對啊原本就這樣是誰叫你們寫貨的"},{"start":30299.478,"end":30326.503,"text":"對不起 我們沒有寫好對啊 你們就是不曉得在後什麼這樣的話 這個在第二項第二項第二項要配合條件剛剛我強調的就是說要身心障礙者本人但是這裡一看你現在一看到身心障礙者代表那後面有個是身心障礙者那你們就是證實這兩群是不同人"},{"start":30327.603,"end":30343.377,"text":"那現在他們強調就是說身心障礙者其實沒有人可以替包括親愛的家人也不見得可以替他本人來發言他本身的需求他需要的東西所以是身心障礙者期待的是他們自己真的是身心障礙者"},{"start":30344.458,"end":30368.958,"text":"我不能否定說這些組成這個團體或聯盟他們是有些願意幫忙他們但是未必能夠真正替他們發言還是讓當事者來說話所以這個樣子更加證明這兩個是不同群人啊不就結結實實加起來又加起來才二分之不少於二分之一那等於一個人也算啊這樣不行這樣跟這個身心障礙者期待差太遠了署長差太遠了"},{"start":30372.308,"end":30394.514,"text":"來 請回應公務員報告一下這個這個遴選的時候不管遴選是用推薦或者等等方式產生的時候這個所謂的身心障礙者代表出來的時候他一定就是他要能夠去代表身心障礙者那身心障礙因為他的這個障礙的狀況是相對比較多元他有很多的類別那"},{"start":30395.094,"end":30417.555,"text":"尤其是這個如果完全只考慮身心障礙者的話我們會擔心這個操作是另外一回事但是這邊在這個在遴選的過程中心智障礙類的部分他很可能很容易會被忽略掉肢體或者是其他的部分因為心智障礙類的時候他很難被他很難自己出來"},{"start":30418.875,"end":30442.783,"text":"所以這個部分的話我們會建議是這個尤其是在考慮到心智障礙的狀況的時候那我們為什麼會把他這個條文寫到這麼複雜其實確實是有考慮到這個身心障礙者他如果是用身心障礙者代表這個身份進到這個組織裡面來的時候他當然他的責任就是要維護身心障礙者的權益啦"},{"start":30443.403,"end":30465.963,"text":"所以我們是覺得這個部分的時候是不是可以用這個方式來做一個思考以上署長你應該見過身心障礙障礙者團體吧就是本人你應該見過他們他應該也跟您表達我剛剛談的這樣的一個說法嘛你所謂的代表那是責任上理想上理論上他們是應該如此"},{"start":30467.024,"end":30485.61,"text":"但是誰又能代表你當然就誰又能代表我陳昭芝講話呢就是如果我的心意所以你剛剛講的那個所謂的代表那經過選舉啊等等那這個明明就是當事人三線障礙者他們自己最期待的其中的重要的一項條文他們希望能夠為自己直接自己發聲討論"},{"start":30487.33,"end":30515.522,"text":"那你那個代表那代表你我不是說代表不公平但是這個有誰代表也可以顧此私彼啊你說障礙者有各種類型那這個代表者可能他本身就不是障礙者那您就期待他就是每一個人都能夠那麼周全嘛所以其實比較公平的方式還是讓真的那因為這個是有任期嘛或是說大家都有機會進來嘛啊他們彼此選舉就是說身心障礙彼此選選代表出來他們自己就是自己就是情況下我想這個"},{"start":30516.542,"end":30540.91,"text":"能夠真正表達他們的這個心意 他們的需求會是更精準的啦 署長你也 我相信你既然說過你也見過他們嘛 他也跟你表達這件事 這個條文他們非常在意非常在意 那現在的其實很多的委員會 現在各個各部法案的裡面很重要的委員會都常常強調 所謂的當事人是要但相當的比率"},{"start":30542.09,"end":30554.283,"text":"我當然不是你負責 不過也是衛福部要負責的護病比等等 我們也盡量讓護理師能夠在裡面佔據一定的比率一概念架構是一致的組長請你再思考看看好 謝謝 再請林一月請回言"},{"start":30558.724,"end":30581.605,"text":"我覺得先要釐清一個狀況這應該講身心障礙者代表應該是遴選出來他們本身就是身心障礙者吧我先釐清這個吧否則的話好像我覺得兩邊講不一樣因為我們看這個因為已經不是團體代表了嘛那他就是應該事實上是一個身心障礙者可是不可能如果講我們現在不要講代表的話"},{"start":30582.625,"end":30607.819,"text":"那這個人是包山包海一堆人都要進來這個代表是說我今天是被選出來的我本身就是身心障礙者我是被選出來來代表這個身心障礙者應該是這樣吧因為台北市過去領選就是這樣我如果本身是身心障礙者我去訪問我自己然後呢最後呢一堆人來投票投票我然後我去擔任身心障礙者委員會的委員吧"},{"start":30608.539,"end":30623.19,"text":"沒有錯先釐清這個否則的話我剛剛聽好像講起來如果以陳昭之委員講說好像不是他本身不是身心障礙者應該是吧就是只是領選出來的那是透過大家投票機制之後決定這件事情吧跟兩位委員兩個身份"},{"start":30632.112,"end":30651.631,"text":"跟委員報告我們當初在列身心障礙者代表這個文字的時候我們確實是心裡面有假設有可能選出來的代表不一定是身心障礙者那這樣的情況可能發生在哪裡第一個它可能是屬於心智障礙類的"},{"start":30654.112,"end":30677.737,"text":"他可能家長 不是團體 個別家長那他可能照顧了一個身心障礙者照顧20年 30年他願意出來幫這一類的族群幫這一類的心智障礙者發聲的時候我們覺得在以這一類的狀況來講我們好像也不太能夠去否認他對於身心障礙或者這一類族群的"},{"start":30678.357,"end":30693.229,"text":"需求的表達所以我們在寫這個文字的時候我們確實我們在假設是他有可能會有非身心障礙者會成為身心障礙者代表這個用這個身份進來那但是"},{"start":30694.781,"end":30713.961,"text":"如果是這樣子進來的時候既然他是用身心障礙代表這樣進來的時候那麼我們當然會把他認定成他就是幫身心障礙者或者是以身心障礙者的需求為角度出發來去表達這些人的需求或者表達他們的一些想法"},{"start":30714.501,"end":30740.515,"text":"所以在算比例的時候我們會把它算到二分之一裡面這個是大概我們當初是這樣子去思考那因為這一類有可能會出現的是他有可能是最沒有辦法發出發生或最沒有辦法移動的這一類身心障礙者的時候那麼這一類人的時候他通常不太可能出來開會也不太可能出來表達或者公開說我要被選舉"},{"start":30741.696,"end":30756.076,"text":"那他有可能就是他的照顾者或者是等等那在这种情况之下我们觉得如果是这一类的这样状况我们觉得他用身心障碍者代表身份出来我们是觉得某种角度好像是可以被理解"},{"start":30757.237,"end":30777.192,"text":"蘇長你一直一直在講心智障礙者但事實上我們如果說當事本身是心智 這身心障礙者還有好多個位置可以給其他的代表人我們現在強調的是他自己就是身上的他能夠讓他自己出來發言那你說他沒有能力為自己發言那當然是還有名額啊還有名額啊來請王育民委員"},{"start":30787.478,"end":30809.617,"text":"剛剛其實署長講的你是身心障礙者代表你是完全排除了機構跟團體的代表他就是可能是家長家屬因為他本身沒有行動能力然後幫他來參與的這一類型對不對所以你們也把他廣泛的認定為他就是幫他的孩子或者是他家屬在講話所以他也是屬於障礙者"},{"start":30812.161,"end":30840.151,"text":"你們是這樣子認定的嗎那剛剛趙志偉是說這一類型是不是把它放到二分之一以外就是二分之一裡面就是兒少的跟自己本身可以為自己權益講話的身心障礙者然後你們這樣有沒有什麼困難就是說其他的二分之一可能包含這種是家長幫他發言的還有團體的還有機關的專家學者如果這樣你們有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":30840.956,"end":30863.522,"text":"如果沒有的話其實那就變得很單純你的這一個就整個都是自己本身就是身心障礙者的代表達到二分之一我想身障團體他們今天在訴求就是說他覺得本人的聲音是很重要的所以他希望這二分之一通通都是本人自己可以去發聲的"},{"start":30864.722,"end":30883.877,"text":"那我不曉得你們原來在你的想法裡面就是說這種幫幫這個身障的你講的也有道理就是說在幫他自己的小孩或什麼因為他本身沒有辦法語言表達他來幫他發聲這個可以但是原本你們自己的規劃是佔多少名額呢如果那個名額比例也不高"},{"start":30884.864,"end":30904.253,"text":"我覺得如果大家達到各自要的目的的話因為障礙者他們的確他們希望自己的聲音可以自己為自己發聲的這個比例再更高我覺得也很好就是就讓自己發聲的占到二分之一那其他家長要幫他發聲就算到另外二分之一以外看可不可以這樣"},{"start":30910.26,"end":30932.666,"text":"來 請回應也跟各位報告這個我們大概在實務上我們也有在研擬這個條文的時候我們也去調查了一下各縣市目前這一類組織的組成的狀況那我們目前所知道的我們目前調查出來的情形"},{"start":30933.486,"end":30950.04,"text":"差不多是連中央代縣市大概平均身心障礙者佔的委員總數的比例差不多是在三成到三成三成多大概只有很少數的縣市超過四成"},{"start":30951.482,"end":30967.378,"text":"大概只有很少數的先生有超過四成那所以這個如果用這樣子下去處理的時候那這個第一個是身心障礙比例變高這個感覺上是我們可以讓更多的身心障礙的朋友能夠有發生的機會"},{"start":30968.599,"end":30983.772,"text":"但是其實某個角度當這個發生的機會出來的時候其實還有一件事同樣需要處理的是這個發生的內容是能夠在這樣的一個組織或者會議上面能夠被討論和處理"},{"start":30986.558,"end":31014.506,"text":"那就是他在會議上能夠有一個機會跟相關的不管是團體代表甚至是機關的代表能夠去做互動所以他是基本上這個會議是能夠做一個雙向能夠去經過討論去解決所以如果這個單純是把這個身心障礙者完全拉到二分之一的時候那這個有可能最後被壓縮的大概就是不屬於身心障礙者的部分"},{"start":31015.687,"end":31037.307,"text":"我們可能需要評估一下到時候在這樣的一個組織裡面它的對話功能會不會因此會被很難做比較充分的對話這個是我們比較我們覺得比較可能會是不是需要再做一點思考的地方以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":31039.099,"end":31064.953,"text":"我這邊補充一個資料 大家看一下我剛剛也聽署長在講還有懲罰者委員擔心的部分應該因為我們在審查過程裡面都還是會參考一些一些依據這邊是聯絡國身心障礙者權利的公約第四條第三項的規定以及身心障礙者權利委員會第七號一般性的建立身心障礙者權利推動小組織委員應有身心障礙者代表至少歐文之一"},{"start":31067.999,"end":31092.66,"text":"那我當然也期待就是身心障礙者零有身心障礙者所測的人來超過二分之一那如果說這個部分我們偷偷各位的意見還有願板還有各位的版本身心障礙者代表加身心障礙者本人就是零有身心障礙者所測的零零容忠重加起來有超過二分之一其實這也是一個目標啦"},{"start":31094.898,"end":31123.13,"text":"因為身心障礙者代表基本上一定是代表身心障礙者這個毋庸置疑啦那獨秀可以發言嗎可以當然可以剛剛你看署長已經先承認所有團體你去查都不到大概頂多三成的裡面是真正是本人這是第一個那時代不同今天我們再出這個身心障礙者很明確的跟我們表達我想我想您接待的身心障礙團體障礙者團體您也知道有很多人能夠表達他也許只是某些功能我看現在已經有人告訴我了"},{"start":31123.55,"end":31146.508,"text":"你不要可能請署長不要再舉例心智障礙他們說心智障礙可能比很多人都聰明我現在已經接到這個當成所以我們可能不要再用這個做比喻了好那那但是不一樣這個代表我不知道CRPD當然這個所謂的代表這個代表我當然已經聽到這種佔比佔率這麼低也許是熱心我從來沒有說愛也不一定是對的我們愛一個也不見得是愛的方法是對的"},{"start":31147.108,"end":31169.122,"text":"他們現在就是期待說你關心我你幫我組的團體都是善意的這個沒有人否認這件事情但是他們想要自己表達他們想要自己表達他們的需求他們想要表達他們自己的聲音這個完全沒有問題啊這個是一個不管是CRP的精神或是文明國家的做法你為什麼不試試看呢為什麼不做做看呢"},{"start":31170.543,"end":31182.389,"text":"你看代表你看現在你知道團體裡面七成都不是啊就是七成都不是本人啊那今天我們要立這個法也就是說一定有很多不足的地方嘛他們才會期待我們這樣做那就來"},{"start":31184.02,"end":31209.494,"text":"試著做做看我剛剛也跟你舉例一個護病比也是貴婦的這個問題那護病比的部分也是我們沒有辦法去做那個比率但是至少讓他們有一半的比率讓他們能夠在那裡發生因為各種狀況護理師也是各種狀況在什麼樣的病房什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的班別我們不能替他做決定所以這個不能試試看嗎"},{"start":31210.376,"end":31228.986,"text":"不能這樣做嗎就是本人我們真的不要忽略在各種身體狀況結構或是功能上有跟我們一般所謂的不一樣的人他們能夠發言的一個能力而且我們剛剛已經提到了我們甚至他來開會我們都要協助啊我們要協助他發言表達"},{"start":31231.748,"end":31253.647,"text":"這才是一個非常最感人最溫馨的一個做法我們要協助表達不是說你沒有能力表達所以我讓一個別人來替你表達我覺得今天整個精神是在這個地方他們要自己發聲他們要為他們自己的權益他們的主張來發聲所以我請署長你們再好好想想看再好好思考這樣的一個主軸思考主軸 謝謝"},{"start":31256.983,"end":31281.05,"text":"我再跟署長做一個確認你剛剛回應委員會是說有針對幾個縣市就是身心障礙者這個委員會的組成有身心障礙者領有這個身心障礙者手冊的有三成多有四成多嘛對不對大概只有四個縣市達到四成是身心障礙者本人還是身心障礙者假身心障礙者代表身心障礙者本人OK好謝謝"},{"start":31283.733,"end":31306.81,"text":"也跟各位委員也先致歉剛才如果是舉例上面引用不當的地方我先鄭重的致歉但是必須要說明還是要跟各位委員報告一下的就是在這個制度設計的時候其實總的方向我們真的是希望往前走所以希望能夠去把它拉高"},{"start":31307.61,"end":31326.381,"text":"但是我們真的是有也是希望說未來在這樣的一個會上面的時候它是除了能夠有對於身心障礙者自己關心的問題能夠直接發生之外我們也希望在那個會上面它是能夠一定程度的能夠跟"},{"start":31328.641,"end":31348.628,"text":"這個在會上能夠做一個意見的交換討論去找到一個能夠解決問題的機會那這樣的一個方式所以這個在比例上面所以我們當初在這邊確實是有一些折衷的地方那這樣一個折衷的方式那我們也是盡量思考"},{"start":31349.028,"end":31371.694,"text":"我們可不可以試試看你用文字看我尊重你的文字就是說你可不可以先試著做一次看看我們先不要認為他們表達能力或是什麼沒有辦法完整的表達或是等等我們試著做一次看看就是試著讓身心上的本人參與這樣的會議然後讓我們看我們來看看我們也可以見到我們也看看怎麼做"},{"start":31372.874,"end":31394.032,"text":"對 你用示範的方式 也讓他們試著這樣因為你永遠如果阻絕他們現在的期待的話我們永遠不知道真相是什麼也許出乎你意料之外 他們能夠真的能夠把自己的主張權益他們表達得非常清楚而且覺得是真的能幫助到他們每一部法都是真的要幫助對象嘛幫助這個該法要授意的對象啊"},{"start":31395.421,"end":31410.554,"text":"就是不能夠而且也有任期嘛你要做評估要做試行什麼我覺得是不是你可以考慮把文字就我們先用這個方式他們期待方式先做那我們可以考慮你用文字其他看看怎麼來看觀察這個進行的狀況署長可以嗎"},{"start":31414.039,"end":31439.627,"text":"好啦 是有道理的啦如果你的地方政府已經把性侵障礙者的這個具備障身份的已經在委員會組成的到4成多那是其實要過半也不是一件很困難的事情好我還是要處理一下開會時間因為我們現在處理到第10條那我們後面還有100"},{"start":31445.138,"end":31449.982,"text":"163條次 今天有點障礙所以要跟各位提醒一下"},{"start":31456.373,"end":31479.561,"text":"這第10條是第一款第二款的總數加起來怪怪的也請你做一些調整所以第10條我們先保留好不好好那我們處理開會時間那各位委員如果基本上大家越遠往之前我們就必須要再延長開會時間也因為我們的時間也剩下所剩5集每個人的時間都已經快到了這樣"},{"start":31487.605,"end":31491.114,"text":"沒有啦 你們說你動不動 你們就說你動不動 你們就說醫生動不動 我覺得你這也很奇怪"},{"start":31500.62,"end":31524.867,"text":"主席抱歉我簡單補充兩句話就是說既然這個這一條先保留啦但是我覺得說還是要強調就是身心障礙者他的這個本人的參與其實是相對重要啦就是說不是說讓其他人來決定其實我們甚至連身心障礙它有很多的面向那我們都沒有特別要求說你一定什麼比例的身心障礙要把它放入所以說"},{"start":31527.408,"end":31552.914,"text":"這個參與其實我覺得是很有意義的這也是為什麼說特別我要趕過來就是說第10條這邊我一定要發言一下也希望說保留帶回去但是我們行政部門這邊還是要去研究一下說這個文字怎麼樣修正可以符合我們各個朝野的委員大家共同期待就是說身心障礙者他能夠有參與的一個精神好不好謝謝好 謝謝各位委員"},{"start":31554.994,"end":31570.019,"text":"好有委員建議休息那其他委員沒有其他意見但是我還是提醒各位我們所剩時間都不多了未來的路蠻坎坷的真的啦因為因為今天"},{"start":31571.738,"end":31590.285,"text":"今天不是 今天因為因為1月7號那我們到1月31嘛那委員會的時間真的不多了啦而且院會也有在借委員會的時間你看如果我們還有160幾項條164條4啦 164條4那我們今天省不到8條次9啦 9 對就等於不到 連十分之一都沒有"},{"start":31601.055,"end":31607.336,"text":"對 然後那麼多各機關都陪我們在這個地方沒有一點些進展 對大家也不好意思"},{"start":31608.024,"end":31634.177,"text":"是 來 請說 來每一次審查法案都是這樣第一次其實是最緩慢那但是因為主管機關已經知道各委員的版本已經出來包括修正動議我是建議就是給他們時間跟委員就是可以再先溝通因為每一件都是來到這個會議的時候大家才開始談真的那個都會慢那有一些如果可以事先先去溝通我覺得之後"},{"start":31635.157,"end":31655.675,"text":"修法今天都是這樣 往後走就會再更順一點第一次都比較困難一點對啦 當然啦 這個第一次 OK 好那個 我們現在做一下決議聲音障礙者權力保障法部分調整修正草案等33案 三位審查完略令責期繼續在審本日會議到此結束現在三位 謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}