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事錄"},{"start":1536.809,"end":1562.519,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期教育及文化委員會第十三次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一一五年一月七日上午九時至十二時五十三分地點本院秦賢樓101會議室出席委員葉元之委員等十五人列席委員吳秉瑞委員等十九人列席人員教育部政務次長張廖萬堅率同有關人員主席劉昭吉委員蘇斌報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定"},{"start":1565.147,"end":1572.234,"text":"討論事項審查委員五立法等16人拟據偏嚴第7學校教育發展條例部分調整修正案等13案"},{"start":1573.888,"end":1596.183,"text":"本次議程採綜合詢答有委員葉元之等20人提出質詢軍經教育部政務次長張亮萬堅及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員陳俊宇 楊瓊英 徐欣盈 翁曉玲 高金素美提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1597.384,"end":1598.945,"text":"請問各位委員 委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1617.403,"end":1640.408,"text":"那在場的委員未答議決人數3人那議事入站不確定今天的議程是審查大學法部分條文修正草案相關草案共13案包括了委員徐欣盈等19人委員羅廷偉等16人委員范雲等16人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1642.967,"end":1669.747,"text":"委員陳秀寶等22人委員廖先祥等18人委員柯志恩等21人台灣民眾黨黨團還有委員翁曉琳等16人委員伍麗華等19人委員范雲等16人委員林月琴等17人委員林一錦等21人擬拒的草案目前就僅進行詢答"},{"start":1672.537,"end":1701.616,"text":"那我們現在就先介紹在場的委員現在委員還在準備當中沒有出現我們就現在介紹與會的官員首先是教育部的常務司長朱俊彰歡迎教育部高教師司長廖高賢機職司司長楊玉慧"},{"start":1704.665,"end":1718.688,"text":"財政部負稅署專門委員羅佩如財政部財政資訊中心檢任分析師葉坤明行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員王淺凱法務部檢察官楊石宇"},{"start":1731.598,"end":1749.479,"text":"好 現在先請提案委員進行提案說明好 因為目前沒有我本人代表民眾黨也沒有做提案說明接著請教育部的朱次長來進行報告報告時間10分鐘其他相關機構的書面意見就請一併的參閱了"},{"start":1758.53,"end":1777.246,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天本人應邀列席大學法部分條文修正草案進行報告請向各位委員對於高等教育發展議題的關注跟建議表達衷心的謝忱並請各位能夠給予本部業務及持續的監督以及支持"},{"start":1778.367,"end":1803.325,"text":"这次部里面对于委员所提的修正草案主要的议题我们回应如下第一个 针对范云及林井等委员拟据大学法第五条修正草案有关大学自我评鉴的范畴并纳入教职员参与部分学校认为有助于提升校务治理的透明度以及权益保障第二 针对范云委员 陈秀宝委员柯之恩委员 翁晓琳委员 吴立华委员 林井委员"},{"start":1804.125,"end":1824.344,"text":"以及民众党团拟据大学法第七条修正草案有关大学合并程序需经校务会议审议权益保障及增列公私立合并计划之修法建议现行实务已经含有校务会议审议的程序增列校务会议审议有助于程序更明确令公私立合并的部分"},{"start":1826.278,"end":1842.834,"text":"部分学校认为公私利益的体制差异甚大且涉及到治理资产文化权益等问题建议相关的规范一更周延三 针对泛艺委员 民进委员以及民众党团等理居大学法第九条修正草案"},{"start":1843.254,"end":1865.377,"text":"有关校长领选纳入师生代表及同意机制等部分学校表示认同学生的参与但建议采谈线人数的设计能够尊重各校的自治亦有学校认为私立学校部分应该尊重董事会决定的权责学生团体则是主张至少要有两席的学生代表并设有师生的同意机制第四"},{"start":1866.765,"end":1888.846,"text":"針對范雲委員離去第九條之一修正草案有關校長任期跟續聘的評鑑公校的部分有學校表示目前已經有續聘評鑑制度私校的部分則有學校建議由各校的組織規程制定並尊重董事會決定的權限第五針對范雲等委員離去第九條之二修正草案"},{"start":1889.446,"end":1903.382,"text":"增列校長去職及校務會議提案的機制部分學校認為應維持制度的穩定以避免各校標準不一影響到校務治理的穩定亦有意見指出以避免校長去職的規定比老師解編的程序更寬鬆"},{"start":1904.343,"end":1923.797,"text":"第六 針對范雲等委員擬拒大學法第九條之三修正條文草案擬警等委員擬拒大學法第九條之一條文修正草案針對大學校長因涉刑事案件停止職務等相關規定部分學校表示公校已有相關的停聘的機制私校部分也已於私校法有所規範"},{"start":1925.759,"end":1943.894,"text":"7.針對范雲等委員理據大學法第11條條文修正草案新增跨校學分學程及學位學程及增設教育實驗單位等規定近年來許多大學已經成立了大學系統來進行資源連結或進行跨校的整合這已經是趨勢了目前大學要設置"},{"start":1945.475,"end":1973.294,"text":"教学实验的单位是大学自主事项大学在办理学校形态的实验教育也有学校形态实验教育条例也可以作为依循第八点针对范云等委员你去大学把第13条条文修正草案针对教育实验单位的学术主管的产生方式目前学校要设教学实验的单位是自主事项那学校也有办理学校形态的实验教育条例可以作依循第九"},{"start":1974.314,"end":1995.636,"text":"針對范雲等委員理據大學法第14條之一條人修正草案由外國籍教學或是研究人員來兼任行政主管人員以及增列國立大學契約禁用的資源可以擔任主管的規定查96年教育部已經含釋放寬外國籍教師可以來兼任學術行政主管"},{"start":1995.996,"end":2006.622,"text":"那目前的相关的法规编制外的人员多不得来担任或兼任编制内的单位主管如果要放宽的话可能要考虑到领导统一跟人事考核的状况"},{"start":2007.895,"end":2025.837,"text":"第十點 針對民眾黨團范瑛委員 林瑋琴委員 林一錦委員擬拒大選法第15條條文修正草案有關校務會議學生代表比例增加產生的方式 職員代表產生方式教師代表組成及產生方式訂定校務會議議事規則等事項部分學校主張"},{"start":2026.798,"end":2051.054,"text":"人数应该有弹性学生代表比例以省省的做调整而且代理的制度跟监督委员会要考量其可行性教师团体的认为教师的喜事应该过半学生团体的主张在会议的规消费的规模要做适当的缩减学生代表比例可以提高到四分之一到五分之一具有实质的影响力第十一点针对范允登委员理据大学法第十五条之一修正草案"},{"start":2051.474,"end":2070.317,"text":"有关校会议下设监督校务财务编制议程等委员会部分学校认为目前已经有既有的财务跟监督的机制是应该要保留一些弹性让学校可以跟师生做讨论第12点有关欢迎委员你居到学法第16条条文修正草案要增订"},{"start":2071.337,"end":2091.118,"text":"校务行政的监督校园安全等规划是属于校务会议的审议事项学校表示这是有助于提升学校的效能那也可以由校务会议来做相关的一个审议第十三点针对犯罪委员理居大学法第十六条之一条本修正草案"},{"start":2092.489,"end":2111.326,"text":"规范校事会议的议事规则如提案条件等等那不愿学校认为提案的门槛跟表写方式已有各校事实务的状况来做弹性的定定第十四点针对李锦丹委员李记道学法第十九条修正草案增订教师相关权利义务及教师停聘不需聘之规定及不得违反"},{"start":2112.006,"end":2138.555,"text":"教师法不问学校认为现在的制度已相当的严谨教师团体则认为标准应该更明确并避免过度的授权学校第15点针对范云等委员理巨大学法第20条条文修正草案增列教师评审委员会的评议原则不问学校认为现行条文也有规范建议可以维持现行的做法第16点针对范云等委员理巨大学法第21条条文修正草案有关"},{"start":2139.375,"end":2153.992,"text":"教师凭借相关的注意事项教师团体认为应该兼顾要学们的差异以及要以专业发展为目标而不是太处第十七点针对范云等委员理居大学法第20条之一的修正草案针对编制外教师停聘解聘"},{"start":2155.013,"end":2171.281,"text":"或向教师申评会提出申诉的部分部分学校认为相关制度已经有规范教师团体是认为现在制度保障是不足的第18点有关范围等委员对第32条之3的修正草案学生迁徙户籍至学校的部分"},{"start":2171.661,"end":2188.013,"text":"部份學校表示戶籍是用來做登記管理身份跟行政資源的分配疑似各校的狀況彈性處理學生團體則要主張要保障到學生的戶籍權第19點有張民眾黨團范雲林警委員理據大學法第33條學生草案有關學生權益相關的會議"},{"start":2189.593,"end":2210.281,"text":"應經選舉產生這個部分學校表示比例的部分可以做商議那學生團體這一塊是希望有更大的一個代表權的保障第二十一點有關大學法第三條之三修正條文草案及立警委員理據大學法第三條之一的修正草案要定期辦理學生權益事項好那目前已經有在進行當中第二十一點有關民眾黨團"},{"start":2211.821,"end":2227.756,"text":"大學法33條之6修正草案范營委員大學法33條之4大學法33條之5修正草案離境委員大學法33條之3修正草案有關學生自治事項跟會費的收費學校表示要兼顧財務的透明學生團體是希望能夠有會費穩定跟專款專用22點"},{"start":2230.882,"end":2259.891,"text":"有關民眾黨黨墊針對大學法3條之3修正條文 歡迎委員大學法3條之6修正條文及離境委員大學法3條之4修正草案有關學生會自治事項 學校表示這個部分只要符合法規但是也需要承擔責任由教育部來統一規範 可能難顧名來顧及各校的差異 學生團體的希望要用法律來保障 避免校方過度的介入 第23點有關民眾黨黨大學法3條之4修正草案 歡迎委員"},{"start":2264.994,"end":2278.343,"text":"希望有讓學生會有獨立的空間學校認為這個部分可以已有一定的專屬的會務空間並協裁申請式的方式那學生希望能夠更有獨立自主的使用空間24"},{"start":2281.124,"end":2297.673,"text":"有关民众党的大学法三条之五修正草案范围委员大学法三十三之八修正草案一进委员大学法三条之六修正草案有关支持组织参与公共空间管理部分学校认为这个部分应该可以跟学生一起来共商办理那学生也希望有更"},{"start":2298.573,"end":2307.18,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":2322.233,"end":2336.084,"text":"等針對他的三四五條修正查案有關經濟落實學生權益保障的條件因為涉及到貸款輪桿的提升以及學費保障費的界定有涉及到財政狀況要審慎評估為了回應大學院的要求在今年1月22跟23號"},{"start":2337.765,"end":2358.804,"text":"举行的全国大学校长会议各个大学校院协定会也会针对大学法修正议题做讨论教育部会持续以开放的态度会同大学一起落实整个高教永续的发展以上报告敬请各位委员知道好谢谢朱市长的报告好"},{"start":2360.117,"end":2370.767,"text":"那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員的質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分"},{"start":2376.773,"end":2400.934,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於時時30分前提出並與本會委員伍麗華質詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場就原例不予處理好那現在因為剛好有現在有三位委員在現場的那請問委員對於議事錄有沒有異議或"},{"start":2405.663,"end":2430.77,"text":"沒有 好 謝謝 那就我們議事錄就確定了好 那現在首先就由發言登記第一位的林沛翔委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請朱次長請朱次長"},{"start":2438.298,"end":2456.745,"text":"主席 今天我們談的是大學法 但是我想談大學法修法一個核心的問題也就是這個法可以修 也該修 但是不能用一體適用的方式來修本席從2005 也就是民國94年大學法上一次修訂之後"},{"start":2458.246,"end":2484.055,"text":"整整教了20年的書我在公立大學教過我也在私立大學教過但是這十多年來老實講高校環境已經有大幅度的改變少子化的衝擊大學退場的機制的啟動甚至公私立大學的經營壓力差距不斷擴大學生對於校務參與校園民主的期待也跟過去完全不同但是我想要請教教育部一個最根本的問題"},{"start":2484.975,"end":2496.697,"text":"在於治理結構經費來源跟公共責任高度不同的情況之下真的還能適用同一套法律架構來規範所有的公私立大學嗎"},{"start":2497.901,"end":2519.759,"text":"今天有一份正式聲明是涵蓋全國百語所大專院校的四大大學校院協進會發表的正式聲明他們態度非常清楚他們支持高教的改革但是反對粗糙僵化用一體適用的方式來去做修法"},{"start":2520.748,"end":2537.294,"text":"我想請教教育部一句話,你們有沒有真的聽進高校現場的集體警訊呢?我先這樣問一個第一個重點,教育部是否承認公私立大學在本職上就有存在所謂的治理的差異?"},{"start":2538.454,"end":2567.041,"text":"是 謝謝委員教育部非常認同委員講的說我們不能讓所有大學去穿同一套衣服這也是在過去20年大學法修正以來教育部一直在做的從人才的培育到經費的運用到整個公私立性質的定性當然都完全不一樣以私立大學來講它是私人興學它是要提升公共性那國立大學基本上它的預算資源其實大部分來自於國家"},{"start":2567.461,"end":2593.137,"text":"那當然在一些社會責任的落實以及在一些治理的彈性上它的一個角色也會不一樣以教育部角色就會不同老實講公立大學仰賴的是政府的預算涉及公共資源跟受高度監督但私立大學則是受到董事會的結構跟財務壓力它影響極深但是現行大學法對於兩個治理的責任跟權責限限是長期採取高度一致的規範"},{"start":2593.877,"end":2600.502,"text":"那我想請問教育部在未來修法是否有必要在法律層級明確區分公私立大學的治理設計"},{"start":2601.943,"end":2630.866,"text":"跟文人報告目前如果以大學來講的話比較屬於組織結構或是人才培育教師權益這塊因為這個跟公司比較不會有太大差異的會在大學法規定但是屬於董事會的權責私校的財務經營這塊會在私立學校法去做規範所以在部裡面來講我們確實是有向委員老師講這部大學法等於是我們高等教育的基本法"},{"start":2631.226,"end":2658.423,"text":"如果在制度上面差異不大的話那未來私立大學要用什麼條件來去承擔與公立大學同樣的制度跟成本呢如果說因為現在即便我剛剛委員報告以人才培育來講雖然是統一規定在大學法但是目前教育部其實從我們學位受益法大學法裡面開放一些相關的資源整合事實上是公私立都已經可以各自依照自己的特色去做處理了"},{"start":2659.223,"end":2680.151,"text":"這塊其實教育部做的只是原則性的規範很多時候有時候校長會誤會教育部有規定但事實上教育部是開放讓學校以學位授予來講現在各校都可以長不一樣的學位授予方式出來我認為教育部應該要主動來去區分公私立大學的治理架構我覺得這是未來因為公私立大學"},{"start":2681.231,"end":2708.616,"text":"接受的壓力是不一樣的而且以資源來講公立大學當然比私立大學高得多但是如果以公立大學的規範直接規範私立大學的話這一點也不公平而且這樣會導致說很多沒有必要發生的惡況發生所以這件事情我想請教一部特地本席在這邊特地把它提出來因為這個問題是未來很嚴重的然後第二個問題我也想請教為什麼修法方向是越管越細"},{"start":2710.364,"end":2726.382,"text":"國際的高校治理趨勢是國家定原則 地品值保障而不是鉅細靡遺的管組織跟權限但是這次修法的方向卻是用一套治理架構來去治理所有大學老實說少子化AI衝擊國際競爭加劇的時候"},{"start":2729.085,"end":2741.863,"text":"政府给大学的目前从大学法我们看到来讲并不是弹性而是更多的限制我就想就教育部这样的修法真的能够让大学来因应未来的竞争吗"},{"start":2743.032,"end":2761.466,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員提到很關鍵的問題就是治理角色的部分我們以大學法裡面目前提到的校長遴選其實公立大學校長遴選的一個框架是有在大學法很明確的規定但是私立大學校長遴選則是由董事會他來制定規定主要就是考量董事會的角色"},{"start":2762.246,"end":2787.899,"text":"他在私校经营是有他必须负担相对责任但是我们也应该给他一定的一个经营空间来找到他们认为适合的校长这就已经有就是两套所以我们目前希望是跟市立大学来沟通是说如果可以的话校长临选我们让学生跟老师意见可以适当的进来但是那个临选方式不见得要套用目前公立大学的这一个临选委员会的组成的结构"},{"start":2788.619,"end":2792.686,"text":"這個教育部我們有注意到世紀大學一直在跟我們提這一點我在這邊最後要強調"},{"start":2794.178,"end":2822.07,"text":"我們支持高校改革但是我堅決反對一體適用反對一體適用不等於反對改革而且我要求詐欺性的治理也不代表抗拒進步可是這一點因為我們要因地我們常知道因地失財 因地質疑那國立跟私立本來就不一樣而真正危險的我認為不是監督而是用改革的之名去行方便治理之實"},{"start":2823.03,"end":2835.759,"text":"我想我剛剛有提過第一個是否願意區分公私立大學的自己架構第二個是否願意放棄一體適用的修法思維第三個是否願意展開公聽發起公聽會啟動實質對話而非倉促立法呢"},{"start":2841.124,"end":2855.649,"text":"委員這些我們都非常認同我們會來努力好老師說大學好國家才會好我想這是目前全部人在場人的共識尤其是未來的人才就是今天的學生那如果要我們國力真的增強"},{"start":2856.209,"end":2884.656,"text":"我們現在看到很多不只是少子化之外我們也是在遇到AI的衝擊國際的衝擊各方面的衝擊如果我們今天在大學法上面只是單純的讓治理更方便而不是從根本來去進步大學的制度的話這是對於未來國家的競爭力一個非常嚴重的打擊本席希望說大學好國家才會好國家才會強但前提是政府不要把大學修到動彈不得"},{"start":2886.347,"end":2903.84,"text":"非常认同也谢谢委员指导我想公司力自己结构不同我们一定会特别关注那属于师生权益保障学生的公共参与我想这一块公司就没有不一样那这个部分我们也会来跟大学沟通以渐进适当的方式来进行谢谢委员因为一个大学里面有很多主体"},{"start":2905.241,"end":2929.564,"text":"師生職員甚至還有校友是這些主體如果沒有用一個公開一公聽會或者是直接對話的方式讓每個群體都知道說大學法到底是怎麼回事未來弊端無窮我希望今天本席的質詢能夠讓教育部聽到這是代表全體高叫的聲音好謝謝委員知道好謝謝林沛翔委員官員請回座"},{"start":2933.857,"end":2943.441,"text":"現在請柯志恩委員質詢好 謝謝莊委我們現在請主次長委員好"},{"start":2950.825,"end":2969.566,"text":"市长好刚刚您配相委员特别提到了希望公司利益会有不一样那我个人认为对于这一点来说是很多人的期待但是我觉得做不到为什么因为每个人都是领教育部的钱光是教育部的补助就钳制了所有所谓的独立自主的一个发挥的一个空间这应该是一个存在的事实吧"},{"start":2971.872,"end":2993.339,"text":"包括你们所有的计划当中即使私立学校他必须要承担最大的一个责任因为他的收费都是来自于这个学费但是呢因为要拿到教育部不管是任何的一些的补助升更 卓越等等都有你们的criteria如果说你不要去遵循的话你就拿不到这些钱所以像所有的台湾大学就叫教育部大学没有任何的特色"},{"start":2994.019,"end":3020.434,"text":"所以说呢这也是一个存在的事实那我们今天来讨论这个大学法我说实在的身为大学校长曾经的这个我们的郑校长应该是今天来接受备询的因为他最了解因为他有自己的实务经验就很可惜今天没有看到他除了这点可惜之外呢我也觉得非常的可惜就是我们这个会期所提到的每一个教育的法案包括大学法营养午餐专访偏向条例都没有行政院办"},{"start":3020.954,"end":3039.605,"text":"所以说呢这个没有行政院版包括我们的学习方法也是被逼出来的当没有行政院版的时候呢其实我们在这边的讨论很难有任何一个定调然后呢我昨天也看到你昨天10点02分我们接到教育部给我们的这个你们的报告然后我真的觉得你们的这个联络人非常的辛苦"},{"start":3040.245,"end":3060.557,"text":"然后到了十点多才有这份报告表示一修又再修就跟我们大学法一样已经二十年没有大修了所以我们期望能够看到一个不管是学生或是老师比较能够具体的一个回应就我刚刚非常仔细看的次长你刚念了很多由于很多的法你就是只要是不是太"},{"start":3061.397,"end":3078.252,"text":"关系太多你就会觉得表达教育部的立场然后呢真的大家比较关切的你就把学校立场跟学生立场分别并层但是我还是不知道他这个教育部的态度在哪里那我也知道四个大学协议会昨天分别发表了一个声明嘛对不对"},{"start":3078.712,"end":3098.467,"text":"然后呢我们1月23、24两天有大学校长会议嘛很多事情来说的话不用等到那个时候因为这部大学法从我2016年当立委的时候都已经在讨论的到现在为止所讨论的条文那个学生会会长那个已经不晓得已经换了几个了讨论的问题还是一样我们就一一来去看"},{"start":3099.855,"end":3127.791,"text":"前面我还是要提到的整个的诉求点还是来自锁定两个校园民主跟学生实质参与因为学生的诉求认为我们都是属于90%都是学生学生是成年人他们当然有权利来做公共事务的一个检讨但是呢有反对者认为说这些部分来说的话因为牵涉的分文很多可能不想让学生承担太多的角色你这两个对于所谓的校园民主自主"},{"start":3128.231,"end":3157.106,"text":"这个如果在整个背后的哲理没有办法脉络没有把它清楚的话我们永远在这个角色上面很难一来去看嘛我们先看我们学生的校务会议的比例嘛过去来说嘛已经非常多对不对这个次长你到目前为止也没有办法给我们说教育部也不敢给我们定一个标准存在嘛你们现在的标准在哪里政治大学是八分之一是目前全国最多的但是呢很多学校其实八分之一如果你学校没有社会科学学院的话其实很难做得到的"},{"start":3157.546,"end":3168.049,"text":"那这个怎么办所以目前为止你们的比例在哪里有10%15%有1%到底交易部的态度在哪里这是我说的嘛你们都并层你们态度在哪里数字在哪里"},{"start":3169.073,"end":3196.136,"text":"跟委員報告目前大學法規定是校務會議代表是十分之一這是十分之一那在先前溝通過大學校長是希望用漸進的方式來做因為像剛剛委員有提到的每個學校學生這次參與的狀況其實不太一樣如果一下子把他拉到一定所以教育部的態度是希望維持十分之一我們是希望能夠漸進的提高我們非常肯認你從2016年就十分之一我到現在20哇塞"},{"start":3198.259,"end":3206.778,"text":"2026的十年了几年了现在目前是希望以八分之一目前为止只有政大做到而已所以你们会提到八分之一吗"},{"start":3207.99,"end":3232.083,"text":"所以你們現在就用漸進的方法來解決這個訴求就對了我只告訴你這就是我剛所提到的嘛很多你沒有辦法提到的部分裡面你就兩岸併成我還是不曉得教育部的態度即使是學生希望能夠提到更高你們現在說用漸層的方法因為考慮到學校方嘛對不對那教育部就是躲在學校方後面或是怎麼樣你們還是不給我們一個部分那學生吃著等"},{"start":3232.583,"end":3242.775,"text":"有没有设置上限有没有办法在校务会议的提案当中至少一名学生代表这件事情你们态度是什么这是学联会特别提出来你们态度是什么"},{"start":3244.465,"end":3264.474,"text":"我個人也跟學生大改正或是學生團也溝通過我們是教育部立場是支持學生能夠更充分的一個空間來參與學校的應付每個人都是充分空間這無庸置疑很明確的具體的部分消防會議的提案至少一名學生代表連署教育部的態度是什麼我們問教育部的態度"},{"start":3265.831,"end":3292.055,"text":"目前我們是剛剛提到我們希望能夠跟校長們溝通一些我是希望能夠漸進的提高那提高以1%來作為一個沒有我說提案我剛已經進入到第三個了是你們剛漸進我提到的那我剛說提案呢提案是至少一名學生連署然後對校長遴選至少納入大學學生代表至少兩名這是學生的意見你們教育部的態度是什麼我沒有正反我不需要你們都給我正反"},{"start":3292.555,"end":3319.825,"text":"我的態度我就質問教育部的態度目前為止是怎麼樣目前大學針對提案的部分有三人可以提案五人提案甚至要經過議題小組提案都有那我們也期待說讓學生有獨立的提案權所以你們在這個大學法的修法裡面你們不會調列出你們的態度是什麼你們就是表達你們的希望慢慢陳補但是你不會把它具體的到底多少放在大學法的條例當中不會"},{"start":3320.605,"end":3342.378,"text":"我們有跟同學做說明說我們希望讓同學生有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部目前在跟大學有沒有辦法會不會入法到條文裡面如果溝通出來有結果再入法還沒有溝通出來啊跟校長們還在做討論跟大學還在做討論但是教育部的立場是希望讓學生有獨立的提案權這個就是我2016年那時候你應該是高教室司長吧我不知道"},{"start":3343.299,"end":3354.054,"text":"答案一模一样当你提升到次长的时候答案还是一样然后呢有关于校长临选的至少两名的这样子的学生代表的话这个部分也还是继续沟通"},{"start":3355.32,"end":3377.602,"text":"這個部分我目前以大學45所公立大學來講裡面其實已經有27所是已經有學生代表在裡面所以下一步我們目前立場也是以希望在公立大學的臨選委員會讓學生代表能夠有至少一名這是我們努力的方向但是到目前為止還是不會入法就對了目前還在溝通階段如果"},{"start":3378.843,"end":3403.366,"text":"校長們因為在2023年校長會他們會去做一些討論好吧 那就在場的委員現在是第11屆到第12屆我絕對相信這個問題還是在繼續溝通當中朱老闆你排到這個部分就是2016年結果是一模一樣的所以我也相信次長你已經有在做一個溝通但是就是誠如我剛剛所提到的校方跟學校方他們在對於所謂的自主的這個部分兩個就是完全不同的"},{"start":3403.846,"end":3431.312,"text":"逻辑脉络所以永远没有一个对焦那我们当然也希望你有更大的一个空间不管从哪一个角度来去看都有一个正当的空间可是学生不断去换老师还是留在学校勿换心仪学生都已经不一样了老师还是抱持着校方还是抱持着相同的一个方式这一点到目前为止如果教育部没有办法明定这个部分来的话那我觉得大学法到目前我们讨论起来真的是讨论心酸的次长"},{"start":3431.852,"end":3450.809,"text":"跟委員報告我個人沒有那麼悲觀的意思是說我覺得這幾年因為委員的努力同學的爭取其實大學已經有關注到這一點包括我們剛剛提到的學生出席校務會議代表比例其實學校擔心的是不確定性因為它每個學校的學制環境不同深入委員體的"},{"start":3451.069,"end":3468.605,"text":"当然是啊我知道啊很多学校每个学生抢着参加大部分的学校是学生根本都找不到人数所以你定了一个比例来说的话满足部分地方但是你有些时候也让校务会也没有办法达成所以大家就开始思考会不会需要有一个上限这些问题都是"},{"start":3469.525,"end":3485.871,"text":"從頭到尾都是所以次長再次加油我只是拋出問題我可以拋出問題但是你教育部不可以你不可以是正反兩方併成給我們到最後大家一翻兩瞪眼你要拿出你們態度那個召委再給我一個時間很快的時間來我們來看一下跟高雄有關這個國家重點"},{"start":3486.451,"end":3513.263,"text":"都是跟高校有關五年將投入的130億要建設我們的園區這沒有錯吧我們上次在這個地方附帶決議希望不要排擠教育部的預算希望由經濟部來編列好了我們來看下面一個鏡頭7月4號卓院長風光在我們高雄陽明交大這些非常的非常的這個國立清華大學教這個交通大學大家還有什麼大南方矽谷次長你也站在旁邊沒錯吧是"},{"start":3514.784,"end":3542.403,"text":"很風光的開動了然後呢目前位置是怎麼樣官委員報告目前高雄市政府已經也已啟動已經投注了費用沒有你目前的計劃到底核定了沒有目前的計劃因為我們會根據上次委員提到他怎麼去把孝季的這樣的量所以呢各位現在我們有現在目前最大的問題是你都給我風光開一半你的計劃還沒有核定沒錯吧各位"},{"start":3543.624,"end":3571.803,"text":"行政院長這麼高興我們的市長這麼高興連那時候的我們的秘書長現在的經濟部長這麼高興校長都擺在這個地方都這麼高興就這個計畫到目前為止沒有核定你相信嗎沒有核定所以你們先偷跑的1.5億好先開始用預備金然後呢我們現在變得9.7億然後呢今年就是我們要省的這是各位不要告訴我沒有這個預算因為這是延續型計畫所以可以執行喔12.6億然後呢"},{"start":3573.664,"end":3589.303,"text":"目前為止我昨天查了這個計劃還在審定當中那我們前面站在那邊都在幹嘛的根本報告我們在113年已經核定了先導計劃那只是先導計劃要銜接正式計劃目前就是把效率的力量"},{"start":3589.383,"end":3609.651,"text":"整部当中还没有完全的核定嘛这我讲的没有错嘛对不对那去年到底在干嘛整部计划这么大一部计划然后我要问那你明年开始108亿教育部没有这个钱跟经济部讨论好了吗我们先行规划已经出来了好然后呢我再问你要把它完整108亿经济部要不要认账"},{"start":3613.003,"end":3640.442,"text":"115年这一块的部分我们就会看到整个校际整合的结果会在实际你整个需要你还需要108亿你这些钱都不是问题108亿的话经济部要不要认账我们上次在这个委员会里面讨论的附带决议跟经济部沟通了没我们现在就是跨部会在沟通但是就是期待高雄市政府他能够将这个园区的校际整合的效益发挥出来后面的预算我们才会进来所以108亿你们有保证经济部会出喔"},{"start":3641.257,"end":3661.493,"text":"我們要看跟高雄市政府討論怎麼整合的結果我今天出來這邊這是問個心酸的從頭到尾都問不到我要的部分連一個還沒有審定的計畫你告訴我高雄市政府高雄市政府不管是誰當市長一定會好好把你這個計畫弄出來問題是我弄出來之後沒有錢啊我一百零八億到哪裡去跟人要錢啊這部分我們會我到時候就跟你討錢啊"},{"start":3664.479,"end":3684.959,"text":"因为教育部没有办法所以你必须要要求其他跨部会来做否则你会排挤到我们的计划这是我们去年坐在这地方审议的嘛有没有办法做到如果说你们没有办法请别的单位跨部会来支援这个部分即使有这么大的一个跟我们高教人才培育可以的这是属于我们大家所期望的还是会落空好不好"},{"start":3685.66,"end":3711.1,"text":"所以我們希望這個合定計劃的一個合定不管是從哪個地方趕快把它落實我覺得這才是一個很大的點是還有我要再次強調這個是那個這個是連續型的所以這個錢是可以繼續用的不要再告訴我藍白黨預算沒這件事好不好謝謝 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝柯市長委員柯市長委員等一下 因為我調換位置了所以所以就不麻煩你了 謝謝"},{"start":3719.773,"end":3729.883,"text":"好 現在請郭育晴委員發言 諮詢好 謝謝主席 有請次長委員好"},{"start":3735.987,"end":3759.213,"text":"市長早安我想今天其實我們不是要談某一個大學法的條文怎麼修那是在少子化跟資源的失衡的一個校園治理的一個壓力同時發生的同時那我們要期待怎麼樣將這個所謂的大學他們的未來要扮演什麼樣的一個公共的角色其實這個部分我相信應該是更重要的一件事情"},{"start":3760.133,"end":3777.432,"text":"我想這段時間不管是學生團體也好或者教師團體也好其實他們陸陸續續提出對大學法的修法改革的期待我相信教育部應該也都收到了但是學生對於所謂的校園自主參與的治理另外他們也感受到有一些不滿"},{"start":3778.172,"end":3798.533,"text":"我相信這個部分其實我們也應該要來正視但是我們同時也看到教育部也多次的提到目前的大學法之所以討論困難當然也是因為不是不重視而是不希望是用所謂的議題式或片面式的這樣子的一個方式去處理"},{"start":3799.033,"end":3816.296,"text":"那應該要回到所謂的大學的定位還有公司力的學校的一個差異還有校內治理的一個所謂的權責上的一個整體的設計那我相信其實大家都還在想盡辦法但是我想如果大家只是把這個焦點放在"},{"start":3817.543,"end":3841.254,"text":"所謂的學生比例學生代表的比例上面或者是某一種治理的一個機制但忽略掉了整個整體的氛圍包含我剛剛其實有提到的像是少子化或者是我們的高教的經費的結構等等的一些現實反而會讓很多的制度更僵化我想這一點應該大家都同意所以接下來我想請教一下我們的次長"},{"start":3842.014,"end":3862.291,"text":"可以跟我們說清楚現在我們的教育部除了對所謂的個別的修法的一個主張的回應以外是不是已經有一個比較整體精進的一個措施的構想那目前如何要給學校彈性的同時也要避免所謂的行政權力過度的集中那我們的教育部現在能夠先做什麼請教"},{"start":3862.791,"end":3878.521,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實在94年大學法修正的時候已經在人才的培育 組織的結構還有財務甚至包含整個學生資助參與都有做大幅度的一個開放的彈性"},{"start":3879.201,"end":3906.991,"text":"那其實在教育部我剛剛也跟林佩祥也報告我教育部本來從來不希望大學穿同一套的衣服所以在目前大學法的架構底下其實在治理結構公式當然不一樣那有些基本的結構比如說以大學來講校長在行政的一個領導校務會議在重要政策的一個審議學生跟老師的角色怎麼在這兩塊之間能夠做適當的參與跟監督我想這樣的"},{"start":3908.271,"end":3930.514,"text":"体制是很清楚那我们在跟大学沟通的时候大学也认同这样子的趋势是不可避免的那现在主要的一个需要来处理的就是说大学比较担心的是不确定性因为毕竟一个新的制度要做推广所以我们现在教育部尝试的就是把同学的意见跟大学校长再做进一步的磨合"},{"start":3930.894,"end":3958.506,"text":"取最大的工學術但是我在想在正式修法之前我們到底教育部還有哪一些工具是可以先行改善這個學生他參與跟校園治理的部分如果有這樣子的工具那不管是所謂的這個行政的指引或者是我們在補助的一個條件還有這個評鑑的一個指標是不是也能夠鼓勵學生來參與校務的一個品質而不是著重在因為每個學校的狀況不一樣嘛"},{"start":3958.886,"end":3984.899,"text":"而不是著重在所謂的一定的學生的比例上面這個部分是不是已經有掌握了有 這個部分我們先前也跟幾個學生團體有釋放過類似的訊息其實現在青年署平常跟我們學生組織的一個互動是非常密切的那我們也有一個有關於促進學生自治參與的一個要點裡面包含對於學生會的一些空間人事 經費"},{"start":3986.5,"end":4012.997,"text":"甚至学生希望说能够参与学校会议这些相关的一个比例这是在不涉及所谓的修法的条件这下一步我们之后可以透过一些政策工具我们就可以来协助学生先落实学生组织落实那如果有共识再把它提升到修法位阶或是同步进行我想这都是具体的方式所以这个是已经可以在做的事情那有没有一些比较具体的目前的成果应该这么讲"},{"start":4013.817,"end":4043.281,"text":"目前有掌握吗是 我们上次也提到比如说未来的校长领选是不是让学生代表能够参与这一块我们也会考量透过像我们一些私校讲补助或是我们的一些高校生跟一些公共性参与这一块我们就会把它做要求去引导学校先来做目前45所大学里面有27所学校事实上已经也有45所里面有27所对 有学生代表参与在里面了那像这种不用修法只要透过政策引导"},{"start":4043.621,"end":4062.459,"text":"那當然這步再一步我們會跟同學這邊積極的一起來跟大學做努力好那我想呢次長我過去其實曾多次的提到就是我們的這個高校治理的一些困境那麼除了制度之外其實還有一個非常大的一個結構性的一個問題就是其實高度是不平等的我所謂的這個高度不平等包含"},{"start":4063.3,"end":4088.94,"text":"文學院 社會學科在少子化的一個產業的導向之下往往他們在招生的時候都成為所謂的重災區就是招生的重災區那我想這個高教的競爭的經費其實它的占比過高就很容易形成所謂的強者很強那中後段的學校他們其實有時候為了生存或者是他們被迫可能為了生存我要繼續活下去不然我的學生要何去何從"},{"start":4089.62,"end":4101.54,"text":"那這個時候其實學校可能就會把他們的校園來出租變成是壓縮到他們的一個學習環境的一個空間這個目前我們怎麼樣來回應這些所謂的治理的壓力"},{"start":4103.094,"end":4125.606,"text":"根文報告其實人文跟理工事實上是我們教育隊兩大支柱博雅教育跟理科教育所以教育部的政策不會去做任何的偏頗比如說我舉個最實際的例子在我們核定高教生跟裡面有個特色理研研究中心我們甚至為了人文社會"},{"start":4126.727,"end":4145.174,"text":"去有还有个先导企业计划去辅导他能够来申请而已所以这一块就是我们对人文社会的努力未来教育部的政策一定也都会以兼顾的方式来进行至于在后段学校中后段学校可能目前面对少子化的压力他有些校色闲置的状况"},{"start":4146.127,"end":4169.423,"text":"教育部的审核其实是在不影响既有学生的一个学习环境他才可能跟教育部提案去做一些要出租或是其他的再利用所以教育部在审核的过程中还是会去关注到我们有没有一些比较具体的比方说我们整体的一个高教政策或者是我们在这个经费的制度上怎么去回应这种现象是有没有比较具体的一些"},{"start":4170.183,"end":4194.999,"text":"是 其实以部长来讲部长他现在其实有请高级两师去做几件事情第一件事情就是说再去盘点目前我们对于在大学法不抵触大学法不需要修法的情况之下还有哪一些政策跟法令我们可以做松绑什么时候这个盘点的结果会出炉大概我们现在已经在进行松绑如果可以的话我们"},{"start":4197.039,"end":4213.369,"text":"我們可以持續的進行但是我們可以先把目前的進度我們盤點情況跟委員做說明給委員一個說明這沒有問題所以近期之內先給我一個說明可以嗎那第二個就是在經費的部分我們在這次特別爭取到200億的高校"},{"start":4213.829,"end":4238.054,"text":"人才發展的預算其實一樣有65億是給公立大學做整個銷務經濟來協助他們在經費上的一個挹注我想這些都是我們目前有在做處理的我想大家都理解這個學生對於制度改革的一些期待但是其實我們在討論這些所謂的教員治理的時候其實我們方向也是要往前進但更深層的"},{"start":4238.374,"end":4267.476,"text":"所谓的这个高校上面的一些结构性的一些问题包含我刚刚所提到的就是我们偏科偏重或者是我们的少子化的一些问题其实我们应该要善用现在就能够动用的一些政策跟工具来帮助我们的高校继续往前走那在这里也非常谢谢次长的这个补充那如果有进行的那个刚刚所说的那些盘点的一些资料再麻烦提供给我们的办公室好谢谢次长好谢谢主席谢谢好谢谢郭玉请委员质询那官员请回座"},{"start":4271.676,"end":4281.109,"text":"現在請萬美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":4287.489,"end":4304.975,"text":"委員好次長早這份是您給辦公室各辦公室的報告對不對本席昨天晚上一直等一直等一直等等到大概10點多快11點才等到這個報告當然昨天晚上連夜看也沒花很多時間看為什麼呢這裡面真的乏善可陳怎麼講呢"},{"start":4306.656,"end":4327.379,"text":"請你讓同仁大家這麼辛苦搞到昨天晚上十點半多那我相信這個過程當中大家其實應該就是一直在做一些修正啦或是等等啦但是為什麼出來的是這樣的東西呢整篇的報告通篇不是把一些學校的意見學生團體的意見過去在公聽會上他們這個一些記錄喔你再做一些彙整"},{"start":4327.839,"end":4356.485,"text":"然后就把它当作报告就来了那不是不可以要把这些东西进来但重点就是我本身没有看到半个就是教育部拿出来的立场你拿出来的态度你拿出来的说明都没有那如果你都没有意见都没有立场那我请教一下今天是我们召委排大学法部分条文修正的一个这个询答那后面如果进行到了主条的审查的时候那请问一下教育部还是一样跟这份报告一样没有任何的意见那我们要怎么审查次长请说明一下"},{"start":4357.145,"end":4384.171,"text":"好 謝謝跟委員說明其實我們持續的在找出大家最大的共識市長 你剛才其實陸陸續續所有的委員在質詢你統統在講說我們很努力因為我們在做我們目前在做什麼找到大家的共識我們在進行溝通我們積極在跟學校跟學生在做溝通這不是目前做的事這件事情你最少教育部做了快十年了快十年了"},{"start":4384.891,"end":4408.737,"text":"這十年前到現在其實教育的第一線的環境跟教育的樣態其實一直在做改變了但你不斷地溝通不斷地溝通不斷地一直在這個尋求所謂的共識十年了沒有看到半個共識目前還在做這件事情看起來是ING事實上不是啊我覺得到底是什麼原因讓你們沒有辦法面對到底什麼原因沒有辦法提出部的建議或者是版本可不可以就這個部分做說明"},{"start":4409.777,"end":4437.533,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實大學法修正確實這十幾年來都有在提啦那其實我沒有那麼悲觀是因為我們目前也看到了在學校端跟同學跟教室端其實慢慢是有一次共同修正沒有 次長我再打斷一下沒有人悲觀也沒有人樂觀啊大家是想積極趕快啊把一個屬於學校很好的大學法屬於學生權益保障的大學法趕快出來而已啊但是你搞了整個晚上我們大概到昨天一直等一直等"},{"start":4437.873,"end":4467.133,"text":"沒有哪一次召委排案子我們是要等到晚上10點多快11點才等到你這樣一個只是會診公聽會的一個這個結論的一個報告我覺得太糟糕了喔因為為什麼如果說你現在到現在還沒有一個你的態度跟立場都還不具體那我只請教一件事情喔那教育部啊你到底會不會自己提出來這大學法修法的版本那如果到時候我們要審查我召委又排了那你會不會有自己的建議文字如果是沒有版本的話你只要回到具體兩點"},{"start":4469.434,"end":4496.969,"text":"謝謝委員長我們是希望再給我們一些時間多久時間多久時間因為我剛剛你的希望我們盡量達成嘛那你多久時間你具體講是我跟委員報告我們在10月20 23的全國大學校長會議會就委員兩個委員還有我們總共14個提案版本的意見我們會在那個場合跟大學校長做最後的一些徵詢市長啊這些版本啊各大學校長早就有了"},{"start":4497.369,"end":4524.651,"text":"他們手上早就有了你要溝通早就有人溝通了那意見早就已經可以回收了所以我現在看起來我只問你布裡面會不會提出布板你回答我yes or no我們會有一個中整個各界意見的共識版本出來所以布裡面會提出布板我們會有一個共所以我也不用再詢問你如果沒有布板會不會有建議文字所以布裡面一定會有布板出來我們一定會找出一個多久時間 最大共識的版本"},{"start":4525.396,"end":4544.015,"text":"我們是希望在十年我跟委員報告因為這個案子因為現在已經有委員具體版本出來了那我們也有討論的基礎吧那我們在二十二 二十三跟大學校長會議這邊有一些共同事事長 我了解就第一個您對大學的這個領域其實非常的熟悉那部長更不用說了"},{"start":4544.415,"end":4560.055,"text":"是在這個領域的也算專家實踐者所以我希望在這件事情上面你們要拿出態度拿出意見來好不好更積極一點接下來我想我來詢問一下我們114年度目前我看到有六所學校的註冊率"},{"start":4560.876,"end":4576.433,"text":"未達六成的淹水線其中我們看到國立的台東專科學校它的註冊率甚至於只有31.75%非常的低全台墊底我想我們看到對於"},{"start":4578.634,"end":4603.179,"text":"我們學生的學費是收入來源之一更是我們來爭取教育部的補助經費重要的指標之一如果說今天註冊率低恐怕其實他的收入就影響他未來的經營但私立學校可能就會退場可是國立學校 公立學校所以我想請教一下次長你對於看到國立台東專科學校以31.75墊底我們未來有什麼樣因應的一個對策"},{"start":4604.059,"end":4629.694,"text":"谢谢文指导台中专校的部分确实因为它的区位的关系所以在招生上是相对的困难市长设立的时候区位的问题就在了不是现在才冒出来的再加上少子化跟产业的人才培育这一块我们现在是期待说能够透过当地比如说我们有大学那我们是不是可以来协助我们台中专校在整个产业人才培育是一贯式的"},{"start":4630.094,"end":4646.044,"text":"好那這個部分看起來有計畫能不能會後啊會後就把計畫直接送過來應該不用等了對不對今天下午會後就把它送過來那我本下在這裡提醒我們少子化現在是越來越嚴重你這個註冊率應該還有含外籍生的註冊率加在一起對不對"},{"start":4646.904,"end":4667.916,"text":"你看看如果我們還沒有開放外籍生如果光靠本國生這註冊率真是低的可憐是很可怕的一件事而且教育部你自己推過了一個數字本席看了也是覺得很可怕117年學年度大億的新生將只有17.3萬人那這個是你的數字然後全國私立學校產業工會也分析如果按照這樣下去"},{"start":4668.456,"end":4693.852,"text":"由于这个数字上面公立大专所提供了12个名额那私校可能只有5万多个学生的来源那这样的情况恐怕到时候会有40所的这个私立大专院校会面临退场那这个到117年也不是两年多的时间基于你们也把这个数字出来了工会也开始预警了我想在这个部分次长"},{"start":4694.392,"end":4703.211,"text":"一樣我們能不能一週內你把這個相關的數字因應的政策你的對策是哪一些一個禮拜送到本席辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":4704.65,"end":4733.255,"text":"委員是不是可以給我們兩週時間我們稍微彙整一下兩週一週這件事情其實照講應該一天你就應該有了為什麼因為這個事情是你一直在掌握的一週內好不好好 謝謝那再來我想再請教就是說到時候給我的時候順便把我們私校現在有一些學校退場退場之後我們過去尤其在上一屆的時候我們很在乎就是學生的這個轉嫌這個問題那你一定有追蹤這個追蹤報告一起一週內送過來好不好好 沒問題好"},{"start":4734.335,"end":4754.984,"text":"那最後一個部分我看到我們苗栗亞太創意技術學院停辦到現在超過6年了那原來我們以為進入到清算的程序就校產可以順利歸功想不到發生史上第一起公益董事跟教育部互槓而且槓得非常的兇那所以這個公益董事也召開了記者會"},{"start":4756.144,"end":4768.177,"text":"我真的覺得不太好看痛批教育部行政怠惰阻撓校對媒合導致清算工作停擺那甚至於就是說抗議教育部是有強迫公開飆售會讓他們僅有8000萬的負債卻導致24億的資產落入財團手中"},{"start":4774.184,"end":4787.101,"text":"我想這個爭議啊真的值得好好說明一下那對於這個教育部也有提出來說哎呀我們也去找了很多這個政府單位啦或者是學校但沒有人要接手簡單的報告你找哪些政府單位哪幾所學校"},{"start":4789.337,"end":4805.748,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是透過廣發給各個相關的部門每個退場學校我們都是做這樣的處理所以針對亞太創意技術學院這件事你沒有去徵詢 沒有去積極還是要按照過去這樣廣發次長 我覺得這裡要修正"},{"start":4806.708,"end":4825.207,"text":"這不可以喔第一個呢你也不是面臨這麼多的學校同時間讓你沒有辦法忙不過來那對於這個學校這樣的狀況公益董事都進來了那你就應該要好好去徵詢積極的去幫忙嘛不是嗎你還是用廣發我覺得太消極啦我們廣發中都有族裔的跟部會"},{"start":4826.609,"end":4842.763,"text":"好你說你廣發了但是呢公益董事成員之一也是高教工會理事長的周平啊他就說到啊董事會曾經主動洽舉了清華大學陽明交大聯合大學在一開始的時候這些學校都向他表示願意接手"},{"start":4843.223,"end":4863.088,"text":"而且也進行了實地勘查但是傳出我們司長啊計職司不但沒有積極促成而且還去暗示承接的單位說如果你接了我們不會有經費的補助你可能要自己好好想一想喔所以這些學校紛紛打退堂鼓喔市長這個時間也讓你們澄清一下有沒有這件事情為什麼會有這樣的指控絕對沒有"},{"start":4863.908,"end":4879.613,"text":"委員我要鄭重的澄清假如這三個學校的校長有接到我的電話我馬上請辭我沒有跟這三個校長打過任何一通電話我們對於所有私立學校退場的校弟"},{"start":4880.733,"end":4897.261,"text":"國有化 公共化這是一致的原則我們甚至還去拜託學校能不能在校務可以使用這個校地的前提之下可以來接收我們不會去阻擋真的 以上好 市長我想喔"},{"start":4897.961,"end":4925.567,"text":"你今天也是本席也給你一個公開說明的機會啦那不要說董事會其實現在一直指控教育部是一心只想透過公開飆售來解決這個問題那我想公平公正公開透明這當然是非常重要但是我也希望教育部能夠協助盡量來協助那這個校產經過建價24億負債僅8千萬如果公益董事有這麼多的意見我建議部裡面再去做溝通我們做最好的一個處理"},{"start":4927.287,"end":4952.694,"text":"不要說台灣第一次發生公益董事集體請辭總辭對教育部對學校對我們教育現場都不是好事可不可以在一週內請司長也協助我們次長一起把這個個案在整個過程當中一週內我們也把函文來給我們辦公室可以嗎我們一週內把我們在過去協助的相關措施我們都提供給委員包含"},{"start":4953.334,"end":4976.47,"text":"我们都带了学校带了部会到场地去献刊那最后比如说你刚刚讲的大学是他们献刊之后校务会议就没有通过只要有只要校务会议通过了我举个最简单的例子像华夏跟台科像清大跟中华没有问题教育部的立场就是会尽量来协助所以我们我也把这条整理是这样谢谢"},{"start":4976.65,"end":4999.383,"text":"我講最後一句話你剛才還提到這個部分這以後有機會還跟你談公私並法治化好不好非常樂意跟委員請教謝謝辛苦了好謝謝萬美玲委員 官員請回座接下來有請劉書斌召委質詢"},{"start":5008.939,"end":5035.275,"text":"好 有請蘇次長有請次長委員好好 次長好喔剛才聽到這麼多委員的一個心聲就知道大學法已經20年沒有修了那因應到少子化網路的發達跟AI的一個影響包括的是國際的競爭這部分剛才聽到次長說"},{"start":5036.796,"end":5059.253,"text":"教育部一直都有在準備就修大學法對不對是的好對是的好我們一直在找出最大的共識出來對但是希望能夠推動今天我要跟大家講這一份剛才朱次長你所做的口頭報告並不是現在大家知道的昨天在10點鐘發給大家的版本"},{"start":5060.114,"end":5088.723,"text":"那個版本今天口頭報告的版本事實上是今天早上還最新才出現的跟昨天晚上10點鐘的版本是不一樣的最大的部分在於調適的不同他有在做檢縮的部分那這個部分在於說教育部其實在這個部分是慢慢的在做檢討慢慢的才呈現出最後是才趕不上了最後拿出來一個版本就是在做今天這個報告這部分是確定的"},{"start":5089.743,"end":5117.631,"text":"這一個我就跟大家講的是另外我們也同意公司學校的性質差異還有包括的是大學自治它現在所謂校園民主是非常重要的它包括多元參與是重要的既然剛才 朱市長你已經也說了你們都一直在持續在準備那現在看起來是只差了是不是1月22 23號要進行的大學的校長的會議是不是只缺這一塊"},{"start":5118.924,"end":5145.779,"text":"公文報告我們因為有口頭報告跟正式的書面正式的書面有應該有23頁到24頁他就比較詳細的去做說明所以版本並沒有不同沒有你們連不是你們連連次連的那個部分重點的部分那個條式等等你不是照著那個原來的順序去進行的這部分我確認因為大概只有我一個人是完全把它看完的所以我可以這樣說那我現在回答這個問題就是是"},{"start":5146.739,"end":5170.101,"text":"1月22 23我們部裡面目前跟大學的想法是說我們在22 23的校長會議之後校長會議上針對整個委員的提案我們做一些跟校長們難得有這個場合聚在一起大家做一些討論之後校長的意見我們就會由教育部分別再來跟不同的團體包含學生"},{"start":5170.982,"end":5176.071,"text":"就是如出一策 找出一個有共識的包括你們今天的版本也是各個"},{"start":5177.762,"end":5201.755,"text":"意見團體的意見的彙整而不是你們本版的意見這跟昨天國教署所呈現出來的他們已經看過各個委員的版本之後也把意見各個團體的意見彙整之後他們提出來的他們高國教署的意見這個是一個國教署看起來是一個負責任的做法那昨天的這個條件就經過大國教署的一個說明大家都知道在"},{"start":5203.123,"end":5215.129,"text":"偏鄉地區的學校發展條例當中就已經有蠻多的共識了對我們未來修法就很重要可是到目前為止高教師20年來的對於大學法的修訂卻還沒有就是他現在還在彙整那我剛才問到1月22、23"},{"start":5218.371,"end":5239.81,"text":"你們對大學校長的意見團體回來之後你們還在就又在說跟其他的部分會者所以如果你是這樣講的話真的是叫你們教育部裡面就是出現到高教師就是一個沒有擔當的一個單位那重要的是現在是不是可以給個時程我今天就是要給時程如果是因為你剛才說了應該是指七月到是大學大學校長的部分對不對"},{"start":5240.45,"end":5264.201,"text":"因為你們持續的對學生團體的部分對學校的裡面的治理你們有一定有關已經有些關注而且包括像大學的學生自治的這要點你們都有些引導對不對表示你們做啦但是卻沒有一個擔當再把這樣呈現出來是不是可以給一個承諾就是1月底之前有一個自治的自己的部的建議版本會出來"},{"start":5265.961,"end":5291.817,"text":"跟我們報告我們認為比較周圓的做法是說在2023大學下場會有一些討論之後大學的一些期待我們可以再來跟相關的團體做個最後的確認那最後期限要多久有共識的版本你要請問你要說多久請你拿出市長還有高教師廖市長的一個這樣子一個責任或是高教師市長是不是能夠回應對"},{"start":5294.302,"end":5311.846,"text":"我們是期待我們是期待是說如果以2023出來我們再去做溝通去會診你們要有時間性是不是能夠在因為我們今天已經巡打是不是能夠在下個會期我們有機會你們在2月沒有你們2月還有上班時間2月還有上班時間對不對2月就下個會期了對但是我說好這個最重要的是你還是說出來時程就對了"},{"start":5320.791,"end":5345.788,"text":"我們是期待說因為委員跟同學都有很高的期待你們就是這樣子真的是高跟柯市政委員說的從第九屆到現在已經超過十年的時間了就沒辦法這樣做成事件真的是讓人家非常的失望好 那我就回到這邊來好了這樣怎麼畢業沒拿出來我們現在回應到的是在校務會議上面還是回到校園自治的這個內容啦"},{"start":5346.826,"end":5359.992,"text":"在校會當中學生的部分他的一個召開的門檻他你們召開的門檻尤其是臨時的校會當中只要五分之一就要五分之一可是學生目前是十分之一對不對那這一個"},{"start":5362.293,"end":5385.61,"text":"尤其是學生是非常重要的部分如果他連包括很重要的一些提案重要的包括的是學生宿舍發生問題還包括停車餐飲的問題等等的有出現問題的時候他都沒辦法去做提案那這樣的話事實上是沒辦法去達成一個很重要的一個反映學生的意見那對於提高學生的這個門檻你們對於什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":5387.844,"end":5417.063,"text":"跟委員報告我想這分兩個層次啦就是說學生在校園內遇到任何問題絕對不可能只等到校務會議去解決啦學校的學務處各個單位就應該要積極的協助同學來處理我想這是第一個那如果有真的需要有整個學校的一個共識或學校決議才會需要提到校務會議對 但是你應該承認吧學生是非常重要在學校的一個發展當然非常重要發展方向上面是不是這一部分你是不是覺得應該放寬有這個方向嗎"},{"start":5418.064,"end":5446.32,"text":"那現在就是說如果真的學校在第一次的處理在優先的處理之後有需要提到校務會議做討論目前校務會議我們剛才 我剛才也報告過學生能夠讓同學有獨立的提案權這塊是教育部的努力的目標至於臨時校務會議的召開因為它是只要刺激到整個學校的狀況可能由學生直接來單獨提召開臨時校務會議這個機制在可行性上面我們要跟學校做討論因為目前來說"},{"start":5447.746,"end":5462.771,"text":"大學張開臨時校會的情況不多我們當然希望說能夠學生的問題如果沒有辦法在當下學校處理的話需要動到校務會議來做處理我想這都是很重大很積極的下一步我們當然也會希望學校能夠不過"},{"start":5463.832,"end":5479.31,"text":"据我了解学校开临时校务会议大概除了除了真的有那种我现在是重点是要提案权的这个要保障这部分这部分我们要去往下看另外的在教师在校务会议上的"},{"start":5480.291,"end":5501.209,"text":"全體的會議人數他不到二分之一啦尤其是就算教師但是很多是兼的行政職變成是一個行政會議的延伸變到校務會議當中去那應該我們本黨的主張是說包括應該要有二分非行政職的教師跟學生的代表這邊要超過到一半那教育部的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5502.47,"end":5529.733,"text":"這個方向其實在111年那時候我們曾經有一次也在審議大學法其實委員們的建議也是朝這個方式進行那我們跟大學目前的了解是說可能要顧及到有一些實務的狀況因為有些學校它的專任老師是沒有那麼多沒有兼行政職的沒有那麼多因為學校小 行政單位多一個老師可能要身兼好幾個行政職的這是第一種情形所以要考慮到學校的規模第二個要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":5530.794,"end":5545.509,"text":"有些老師他並不願意他並不是那麼願意能夠來出任所謂的有些老師是比如說他被推選的時候他就系主任他不是學術主管代表可是就是被學校老師推被系裡面老師推出來所以你可以把它編成說"},{"start":5546.61,"end":5562.7,"text":"有些是屬於學校的行政主管的部分而不是屬於行政主管那一部分這不能做錯區分應該可以看得出來差別吧我想學校在意的就是說我們把那個遊戲規則講清楚考量到每個學校跟老師的意願的不同我們可以來做處理但是不要有"},{"start":5563.686,"end":5587.998,"text":"不要就是一條線一隔一切好 這個意見就請你把它帶到大學校長會議當中好 謝謝那另外的我們看到的這個下面一樣來這樣講的好了那另外在公立大學的校長的臨選的部分有政治力的介入我們看到以台大的管中敏校長所出現的當初被檢舉中國大學在中國也多所堅持論文涉及超嫌 立委迴避等等就影響到台大565天沒有正式的校長"},{"start":5590.939,"end":5608.927,"text":"那這個原因就在於說在校長的公立學校校長裡面當中有五分之一的代表是由教育部來指定的那這個地方就呈現到會有政治意志的介入到裡面去這邊是不是可以請教"},{"start":5610.191,"end":5624.461,"text":"所以我們就為了影響減少這樣的一個影響性絕對的是剛才說的校務會當中的這個比例當中對公立校 我說的是在公立校長的遴選部分應該所謂教育部的比例也是應該適度的在降低"},{"start":5625.512,"end":5644.383,"text":"那尤其是全部的包括的是只要是教育部的這個主管的部分的比例能夠降低那其他的包括因為還有校友還有學生學生這邊不也是要增加嗎對不對因為看到你們現在的一個態度是學生可能到至少一到兩名這個方向你支持嗎根文報告"},{"start":5645.954,"end":5671.511,"text":"我們支持老師跟學生代表可以參加臨選委員會讓整個臨選委員會更多元那可以超過二分之一以上嗎至於多少比例我想還是要回歸到目前整個校內的狀況因為以目前來講是五分之二是由校務會議推薦校務會議本來就有老師代表 行政同仁代表五分之二就不到一半大家會算數學"},{"start":5673.154,"end":5675.822,"text":"其實根本報告當時大學法在94年在設計校長遴選的時候是"},{"start":5679.557,"end":5699.674,"text":"立法院的討論就是刻意不讓任何一方能夠過半才會五分之二 五分之二 五分之一但教育部事實上不到五分之一因為我們是剩下的餘數大概都只有六分之一 甚至七分之一所以當時是刻意設計說大學校長會不是選舉 它是臨選那臨選強調是代表性不是說誰要過半來主導整個校長"},{"start":5703.477,"end":5720.381,"text":"產出的方式所以的意思是說他如果是可以各方的部分的影響各方的有多元意見的話那這樣子選出來的校長就是符合大家的共識的一個校長因為是校長臨選不是校長選舉啦當時在整個大學跟立法院共識94年是朝這個方向在行"},{"start":5720.421,"end":5739.274,"text":"但是我們可以看到的是就算是教育部有五分之一的這個樣子的或是說剩下的餘數等等但是你可以看到在管州米校長這個事件當中政治力實在介入的是太大了結果讓全國的最高的大學的學府出現到沒有556年沒有正式的校長在進行根文報告這個問題我們其實管校長"},{"start":5741.716,"end":5769.839,"text":"的問題主要是在資訊揭露的部分所以在這個案子之後目前的校長臨選我們對於候選人跟臨選委員之間的資訊揭露利益迴避我們做了非常嚴密的規定至少從這個案子以後到現在這個過程中大概就已經都把這樣的可能性都排除所以我們接下來這個也變成一個指引嗎或是說要點在臨選辦法裡面有做了規範我們會後可以把我請人事處整理"},{"start":5770.419,"end":5799.445,"text":"提供給委員做參考針對利益迴避跟資訊揭露的部分好 那我再最終再回應一下因為剛才郭玉琴委員做了一個很好的一個說明就是說你們對於這樣包括對青年的就是說大學生的學生參與嘛對不對在自治的在參與校務會議啊或是說各種的學校的事務的治理的部分啊還有關於民主治理啊因為說你們有做相關的盤點對不對這部分我覺得應該提供給我本席需要這部分好 沒問題我希望也跟教文委員都給因為這個才是最重要大家可以知道說目前"},{"start":5800.385,"end":5827.646,"text":"教育部尤其是高教師這邊對於大學的治理進行到什麼狀況因為你的資訊不透明甚至我建議這些部分應該把它放到這些資訊應該放到在網路上面因為昨天的話跟高教師對 跟對那個國教署也針對的是在偏遠地區的學校的資訊的這些那種部分也是說要有個像儀表本的方式讓他知道我希望如果尤其是高教師本身就是負責高教業務也能夠把這些相關資訊目前的進度讓他講不然我們真的不清楚而且就證成說"},{"start":5828.627,"end":5855.014,"text":"大家都可以從頭並且說大家從頭再去針對這個議題來做一個討論的時候就沒有一個基本的資訊然後也沒有基本都知道你們是也許你們做了蠻多的也是蠻好的嘛對不對這就非常重要了這可以承諾嗎我們來整理目前我們對於大學的相關正式修法體的一些議題目前已經在做的或是已經有什麼成果的或是要行政命令的部分可以呈現出來可以嗎大概什麼多久"},{"start":5855.834,"end":5884.723,"text":"是不是因為因為你們持續在做對不對兩週的時間我們整理一下目前修法我們已經有在做幾週所以一月底是可以完成是嗎兩週兩週那兩週OK好謝謝謝謝各位OK好我想大學是大學的自治大學的自治是非常重要那大學百貨是基本法應該就是要有一個方向尤其是高教師特別是整道是在整個管理或是說從事治理上面的大學自治是非常就是已經是高學歷的人他這邊應該是比較有一個方向性的"},{"start":5885.043,"end":5914.903,"text":"就不应该像其他的,就是别的署这边都已经有做到这样子的一个功能的话,它的作用,我想也期许高市长,廖市长,廖市长还有朱市长这部分,在你监督的业务方面,把这样的一个气魄跟一个方向呈现出来,教育部应该有的,因为它就是一个指标性的一个部会,谢谢委员指导,我们会来努力,谢谢。好,谢谢刘竹斌,赵伟,谢谢市长,请回座。"},{"start":5933.619,"end":5935.12,"text":"好 現在請葛如軍委員質詢"},{"start":5950.199,"end":5962.335,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請朱次長好 請朱次長委員好次長好我想20年的討論"},{"start":5964.164,"end":5985.121,"text":"不可能在兩天內就一切都解決了你們現在這份報告整理所有其他人的說法然後就說1月22 23還要再聽其他人說法再聽下去會不會再一個20年啊2005年來這個我們的大學法修正超過20年來沒有進行全盤的檢討"},{"start":5987.287,"end":6002.587,"text":"20年前2005年是什麼狀態沒有iPhone當年還是3310的年代我們現在用3310年代的大學法規在做我們的高教的治理這樣合理嗎所以次長下個會期有沒有機會願版送進來立院審查"},{"start":6004.243,"end":6023.214,"text":"更穩報告這是我們努力目標我們在2023我們跟下長會議執行意見之後這個我們都知道了報告都寫了下個會期提出來預告版會提出我們的一個共識的版本那接下來也想問一下次長沒有學生會有學校嗎"},{"start":6024.551,"end":6043.223,"text":"沒有學生會有學校嗎學生是我們學校非常重要的主題不只是非常重要吧沒有學生就沒有學校吧認同吧是是嘛所以您剛剛有一句話講得很好啊我們在校長領選的時候要有代表性的人參與嘛學生有沒有代表性"},{"start":6043.843,"end":6072.003,"text":"有有嘛所以我們現在想要看公私立大學的校長臨選委員會就應該要明定有學生代表去納入嘛那我們12月底剛通過三讀的這個青年基本法也明定了兩年內要完備相關的法制18歲的青年要有選舉罷免創知不覺的權益我們青年要擁有這樣的權益了結果不能決定自己校門裡面的事啊"},{"start":6072.897,"end":6089.742,"text":"這個不會太荒謬了嗎那我們看到你們教育部提供的資料謝謝你們做的統計到了2025年的7月教育部所屬的45所國立大學的校院已經有29校在校長遴選的規章裡面有學生代表一人"},{"start":6092.184,"end":6108.617,"text":"64%既然大學端已經確認實務上可行了那就可以加速推動立法為什麼不能做那還有很多人會說那各國的情況呢我們已經都整理好了德國的族群大學治理模式裡面就有學生共同參與決策"},{"start":6109.938,"end":6125.786,"text":"美國的大學校長領選不論公私立也都有比如說私立的哈佛大學就有學生可以直接參與甚至直接寄發40萬封的信件給所有的師生裡面也有學生諮詢委員會"},{"start":6127.347,"end":6152.972,"text":"那也不用擔心最終董事會還是可以由董事會來做決定所以台灣的私校也可以用相同的模式所以次長我們今天既然有這個大學法的詢答能不能你幫我們表達一下你們教育部真實的意見不要講說20年我告訴各位1908年胡適就在爭取學生自治"},{"start":6155.553,"end":6179.766,"text":"當時160名學生覺得學生自治沒有被重視直接放而退學 成立新公學一個超過一百年的學生爭取的東西你現在不表達意見整理什麼公民團體啦 學校啦你再整理兩天也整理不完嘛我再給你兩百年也整理不完可不可以表達一下明確的表達支持跟肯定"},{"start":6180.919,"end":6199.574,"text":"公私立大學校長領選委員會可以納入學生代表可不可以好 跟委員報告這個方向就是教育部努力的目標好那因為公立大學目前確實像委員講我剛剛更正一下就是29校已經有學生代表在裡面我幫你算好 64%對 那另外在私立學校委員可以看到"},{"start":6200.074,"end":6213.38,"text":"我們有整理出來私藝學校對這一塊是比較保留但是教育部目前也認為以校長遴選必須要有代表性跟多元性所以我們也會努力的朝這方面來跟私校所以支持入法的方向嘛對不對這塊我們會好 謝謝點頭了所以"},{"start":6217.262,"end":6241.861,"text":"這個態度很棒你們把這樣的態度放到這個報告裡面我想我們今天這個詢答真的大家會非常非常的感動那我想第二個要跟次長探討的修法方向是大學教師的評鑑制度本席也是來自教學現場尤其是大學我們發現有很多評鑑制度殘害教師權益的狀況大學法第21條規定是什麼呢"},{"start":6244.65,"end":6270.652,"text":"評鑑的制度是在協助教師我直接唸出來啦教學專業發展改善教學品質我講的這12個字6個6個一組裡面有哪兩個字是最重要的市長你可以說嗎教學結果咧現在我們看到大學的現場行政權介入論文掛帥這符合嗎這符合嗎"},{"start":6274.333,"end":6301.397,"text":"跟委員報告 評鑑來講因為大學來講教學服務研究是三塊那主要評鑑還是在教學跟研究因為教學跟研究其實某種程度沒有 等一下嘛對不起 次長我剛剛就說六個字六個字一組哪一個字是重點教學嘛你現在突然又把研究偷渡進來顯然就不符合大學法規嘛那我們也根據監察院113年的調查報告就講了有萬年助理教授的現象"},{"start":6302.177,"end":6326.748,"text":"為什麼萬年 明明就說是教學教學你就硬要給他搞一個研究研究我們就要講 有非常多狀況甚至還要講說 你要捐錢要多上課 有多捐錢的可以加分多上課 超中點費的可以加分你們有沒有去檢討有沒有說學校不可以這樣做有 各位報告"},{"start":6327.868,"end":6353.341,"text":"過去很多學校把它不當了去跟招生跟一些行政服務掛鉤這個教育部有告記兩次都已經有多次嚴正的去要求嚴正要求有沒有辦法學校只要違法的我們一定會從招生名額加補助去處理違什麼法你告訴我違什麼法違什麼法我們就是要用大學法來明確的去優化這個狀況你們就沒有具體改善"},{"start":6354.491,"end":6361.364,"text":"所以我們想要講啦我想大家的心是一致的但是現在執行上就是有困難"},{"start":6362.915,"end":6387.801,"text":"我想還不只是評鑑未過的狀況還有一個什麼專案教師專案教師你聽過嗎一樣監察院也來糾舉教育部這是他的說法我以下講的全部是監察院的詞彙教育部放任大學以大量專案教師長期替代編制內的專任教師的員額"},{"start":6389.261,"end":6410.114,"text":"背離政策的目的都讀過吧監察院的糾正吧我用的形容詞全部是監察院使用的我沒有加油添醋喔最後呢說工作環境薪酬不合理的情形置若罔聞啊教育部的做法你知道是什麼嗎市長你知道教育部的做法是什麼嗎"},{"start":6411.58,"end":6432.504,"text":"上限令 上限令砍一個專案教師給十萬對不對 知道嘛 對不對我們是希望引導他轉正而不是去引導轉正那我好啊 引導轉正結果咧你知道數字嗎 你知道數字嗎 次長106年到113年專案教師變少還變多你如果引導那專案教師應該變少嘛變少還變多"},{"start":6436.352,"end":6453.842,"text":"市長變少還變多我時間有限106到113變少還變多有增加一些什麼增加一些4%變6%這叫增加一些喔這叫增加一些喔到6.64%的老師是專案教師在高校體系合理嗎"},{"start":6455.909,"end":6477.439,"text":"這個我們不用修改嗎這個你可以用一份這樣的報告說A說 B說 C說 D說可以這樣子嗎市長這一次大學法為什麼大家很急很希望討論我知道很多人還有很多意見都很好但是教育部的態度要拿出來教師權益受到侵害"},{"start":6478.459,"end":6503.957,"text":"教育部就是要出來保護大家教師權益受到侵害學生家長就受到侵害能不能當場承諾支持大學法修法重新檢討教師評鑑制度支不支持好 這應該的好 謝謝次長我想教育部的次長在這裡真的是勇於認識剛剛我們兩個訴求都直接勇於說我們支持"},{"start":6504.557,"end":6522.579,"text":"那我也希望接下來22號 23號大家會有很完整充分的討論下一步下一次出來的意見希望能夠有自己的看法不要擔心 不要害怕你們一定站在人民這裡人民也會站在你們這裡接下來 次長我們要來談到AI高校的議題"},{"start":6524.601,"end":6535.55,"text":"當然過去的事我們還是要處理未來的事我們也要看接下來高教的議題您認為AI的發展對大學文憑來講利多還是利空"},{"start":6537.352,"end":6559.464,"text":"大學文憑 增值還是貶值利弊互見其實有利多有利空 我個人的觀察一半一半 沒關係 大家各自有各自的看法那我們直接幫你整理了這個Gallup有調查 2025年只有35%的美國人認為大學教育非常重要在2010年的時候是75%"},{"start":6561.045,"end":6585.434,"text":"那認為大學教育不太重要的人數從2010年的4%攀升到25%哈佛大學也做了研究其實Freshman不受歡迎剛大學畢業以前我們都講大學畢業即失業很不好的一句話很可能因為AI要變成事實那無獨有偶聯合報也刊登了一張世界經濟論壇所講的這個就業前景報告"},{"start":6589.415,"end":6609.405,"text":"其中AI大數據或者是寫作數學行銷媒體全部會被AI取代甚至軟體程式設計這都是非常非常大比例的甚至馬斯克在一天前講了他說我不太明白現在為什麼還會有人要上大學"},{"start":6610.405,"end":6639.46,"text":"當然我們不一定要認同馬斯克但是我們想要跟次長講的是高教體制很可能會受到挑戰而且不是一半一半很不幸的有可能會變成利空請問教育部採取了哪些因應措施你也承認有利空你採取了哪些因應措施我想我們現在在AI的人才培育以後如果大原則有四個第一個具體措施我不要講原則原則大家都會講措施"},{"start":6640.506,"end":6652.385,"text":"ActionAction就是我們要教學生能夠去應用AI工具我們像台卡大聯盟這個部分就是會來做第二個讓學生能夠運用這些工具去解決問題"},{"start":6654.008,"end":6672.082,"text":"这是原则第二个action是什么所以这个部分第二个action是什么我们从国中小的相关的一个课程的引导跟大学这一块我们在学分学成或是透过一些加值的课程来让学生能够去解决我实验有限第三个第三个要负责任的去"},{"start":6672.742,"end":6693.663,"text":"Action是什么这是原则嘛所以这一块将来会在一些有关于AI的使用伦理的部分市长我打断你啦因为时间有限其实你刚刚回去听你会发现你讲的很多是原则啦里面第一个Action抬卡我马上来讲但是呢刚刚你讲的什么指引啊我们昨天也提过了啦"},{"start":6694.384,"end":6721.68,"text":"次長也都說要回去檢討我們來看TICA再給我一點時間TICA我們擔心的是什麼因為有不同的人要做比較深度AI的教育或比較基礎的教育結果我們去問教育部說你們有沒有分說到底來上TICA的這個課程科系的比例文科的 理科的每一個大學的科系剛剛這個記者都講得很清楚有沒有統計次長你知道有沒有統計"},{"start":6722.901,"end":6746.786,"text":"我們都有資料我們可以分析什麼有資料我們要的時候就說沒有統計啊誰說謊 誰台卡來修課學生我直接念給您聽啦要後續研議收集針裂聯盟學校學系及學生修讀情形你們沒有啊所以我們可以來統計所以我問你過去有沒有統計你跟我說有有 我之後會統計"},{"start":6748.331,"end":6769.609,"text":"市長我們不要這樣但沒關係有開始做就好因為我們現在就是急啊就要有action啊我們目標一致但是要有動作好不好還有什麼還有百億啊我剩最後兩頁啦最後一頁啦百億2025年9月編了100億五個月過去了做了什麼"},{"start":6770.868,"end":6783.49,"text":"什麼Action你們說要什麼人才啦什麼研究型大學拚Action有沒有Action結果我們問了索取資料到剛剛啊我還沒拿到啊"},{"start":6786.041,"end":6802.119,"text":"這是什麼 這是詐騙集團嗎不是吧跟委員報告因為我們的作業要點是前一兩天有來做說明跟相關的學校已經在做說明收集他們的意見你已經通過了對 但是這一遇到現在五個月你現在才開始在說明"},{"start":6803.18,"end":6825.636,"text":"跟委员报告因为这一笔预算是从115跟116编列编列在115年跟116年是特别预算的部分那因为细致的一个作业需要学校实务作业面上能够比较能够符合现状所以我们有做说明您刚刚也说了今年就可以用的你1月才在说明讨论我们跟你们问要怎么执行你们资料也给不出来"},{"start":6826.417,"end":6841.676,"text":"沒有關係我們要動作快要有動作而且動作要快所以次長我想有一些委員動輒提出什麼115年度的預算案說什麼不省業務受到影響本席要說錢丟給教育部"},{"start":6842.765,"end":6857.082,"text":"完全沒有回聲五個月說現在要說明所以給了錢也沒有用如果有什麼專案可以提出來預算新興的項目也可以提出來也可以來說明目前我們沒有看到任何說明沒有任何人來找我們說明"},{"start":6858.163,"end":6872.194,"text":"AI的發展對於高等教育利空還是利多大家可以持續討論但是我們擔心萬一利空您剛剛也承認會有利空我們就要準備而且要有action完全取決政府如何因應"},{"start":6873.664,"end":6900.243,"text":"我想次長沒關係如果您有回應可以會後給我報告但是我想要講的是如果我們的部長一心只熱衷政治無心推展教育業務如果底下的業務單位有出現螺絲鬆散的狀況我想也是預料之中但我想次長您今天勇於認識我們還是要給您肯定但是最終如果我們沒有辦法趕快做大學法的更多討論甚至修正"},{"start":6901.124,"end":6926.821,"text":"受苦的會是一屆又一屆的大學生我想今天藉由這樣的一個機會我們也是督促 鞭策我想有看直播看到我們這一段質詢都會知道我們就說要有action而且action要快教育部某種程度也提出回應但是能不能很多的項目不要透過這樣這樣我們立法院來當教育部就好顯然不是還是教育部就不要存在了讓各地的教育局來做也不是"},{"start":6927.762,"end":6949.997,"text":"希望勸我們的教育部部長啊回頭試案趕快把專注力放在教育政策教育的法規上才不會被人民放進他們心中的黑名單好不好我們會後會提供但是確實預算我們明年新項目包括我們補助151號大學整修老師教室這確實是要立法院幫忙有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過"},{"start":6951.217,"end":6968.37,"text":"有沒有人來我們辦公室說明過新興預算來報告啊沒問題啊可以啊那要有人來喔那您現在有承諾喔那來說明喔我不要到最後我們等到最後沒有人來說明現在1月8號囉好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6971.734,"end":7000.001,"text":"謝謝葛禄君委員那次長請回座請陳秀寶委員發言那質詢那陳秀寶委員之後呢就休息10分鐘因為時間好那就這樣子是林益菁委員之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席請朱次長請朱次長"},{"start":7004.544,"end":7029.716,"text":"館長早我們先來問一個重點教育部會不會提出大學法的修正案什麼時候提出我們會提出一個各界希望能夠找到最大公約數的一個公式版本出來本席是希望說教育部你們廣大各界的意見之後盡快的提出大學法的修正案我們來提升學生的校園民主參與來促進學生權益的保障"},{"start":7030.276,"end":7048.182,"text":"好 接下來本席這邊想先關心一下關於學生會費的問題在大學入學的時候學生會收到學雜費的繳費單然後也會有一張額外的學生會費的繳費單本席問過很多青年其實他們也分享他們幾乎沒有繳過錢"},{"start":7049.082,"end":7059.867,"text":"因為在入學的時候學長學姐會特別提醒他這個費用可以不用繳因為他們覺得學生會好像沒有做什麼事次長你有聽過這樣子的說法跟這樣做法嗎"},{"start":7061.632,"end":7078.103,"text":"有聽說但是我想學生會的同學都很努力的在提升學生的參與所以其實你也是聽過的也知道說有這樣的事情近年來大專院校從學生會跟閉聯會等這些學生的自治團組織時有傳出會費被侵佔的狀況從南到北都有"},{"start":7082.446,"end":7092.016,"text":"那次長教育部是不是有針對這個情況來研議要如何防範我們就關於這個匯費的監督啊就防範的弊端這個我們有要研議怎樣的方式嗎"},{"start":7094.022,"end":7118.373,"text":"不是 我請因為經營署這邊有一些具體的做法我是不是請副署長說明一下好是 謝謝委員那我們大概針對就是學生會新任的幹部還有包括學校學生會業務的承辦人員都會做財務職能相關研習那我們現在也把對財務監督的這一塊也把它放在國立大學跟私立大學的獎補助的指標裡面那也 對所以我們把"},{"start":7119.454,"end":7138.574,"text":"監督這個部分的這個很重要的放進去指標好那先這樣子你有比較詳細的你再一份那個書面報告給我會要提供給委員那本席這邊提到這個是覺得說其實為什麼學生會費會讓很多大學生不願意繳哪一部分就是因為我剛講入學的時候可能學長姐就告訴他這個可以不用繳"},{"start":7139.275,"end":7163.661,"text":"那一部分是因為學生會費這個不透明還有一部分就是因為大學生覺得說他們對於學生會的這個業務很陌生覺得好像跟自身很不相關所以本席希望說教育部研擬大學法修正的時候可以納入學生會費財務資訊透明的規定以及協助學生會這個業務推廣還有促進學生校園民主參與的部分這個你們可以研議嗎"},{"start":7164.321,"end":7178.327,"text":"是 我想在學生會費這是一個很基礎的部分就是說我們大學跟教育部應該跟學生會一起來努力把這個架構起來不然的話學生對於學生會"},{"start":7181.388,"end":7206.948,"text":"更無感的話事實上它繳合費用的意願就會更低所以這塊我們應該跟學生一起努力大學法這個部分關於財務相關的監管的機制我們是不是可以在大學法裡面也有這樣子的相關的規範本席自己也會有一個修法的版本我也希望說教育部這邊可以採納就是有這樣子的方向好 謝謝同樣的問題也發生在系學會您"},{"start":7208.909,"end":7236.764,"text":"次長你應該知道說系學會也會另外收一筆系學會的費是有些學校有那本席也問過青年的意見經驗他們大部分都會繳其實系學會的會費他們同樣會他們反而會繳同樣是因為學長姐會說這個要繳他們告訴他那個學生會不用繳但是系學會要繳那再來就是可能是同儕的壓力因為同一個系屬的同學如果只有少部分沒有繳那在求學的過程裡面可能會覺得有點尷尬但是這個"},{"start":7238.545,"end":7250.233,"text":"系學會的部分我們有什麼監督的機制來監督這些經費嗎在學生會還有學生議會但是系學會好像沒有是不是沒有這樣的相關的組織可以來監督"},{"start":7253.012,"end":7282.464,"text":"是 确实目前在系学会的部分比较是由学校这边来协助但是如果刚刚回到我想经费的运用会限制到学生对于系学或学生会的一个认同那这块我们会积极来协助系学会和学生会因为去年也发生了某大学的系学会的资金被卷款的这个现象所以我们可以发现说其实各校的系学会的费用收费其实没有统一的标准"},{"start":7282.984,"end":7308.338,"text":"那有的系學會可能一次就收到位可能一次就收好幾千塊對學生而來來講可能是拒款的這樣的一個金額那這個時候收這樣的款項進來與其我們在那邊考驗人性本席覺得說有制度的這個監督我們更能夠防範這些侵佔這些相關的情勢發生所以針對系學會的部分教育部會不會去制定一個相關的規範"},{"start":7309.638,"end":7324.578,"text":"我想從系學會跟學生會來講權跟責是要相符的教育部跟學校是有義務來協助學生會把這樣的學生會和系學會把這樣的架構弄清楚然後讓同學更能夠認同讓整個學生自治參與可以往前走"},{"start":7326.019,"end":7346.54,"text":"接下來我們要討論的是學生會現在會面臨的一些問題跟挑戰根據青年署公布的112年度全國大專校院學生會的概況調查指出目前各大專校院協助學生會運作的輔導主管其實有超過半數並沒有具有法治教育或資商輔導的資歷"},{"start":7348.041,"end":7367.274,"text":"那這樣子是不是能夠協助學生會的運作其實也有一定的疑慮那再者呢學生會有透過問卷來表示他們目前遇到最大宗的問題是人才傳承就是不出來參選或找不到幹部那接續的問題可能有跟學校的衝突還有選舉事務"},{"start":7368.815,"end":7383.622,"text":"這些也都會影響到學生會程序的問題那我們教育部在我們青年署去收集了這些相關的意見之後你們有沒有研議如何協助學生會目前你們有什麼具體的方案提出來我想分兩個部分"},{"start":7383.922,"end":7405.895,"text":"第一個精神署這邊他們其實每年都有一些相關的培訓營跟傳承營針對於學生會的幹部針對於學校的學務主管們都有相關的這種培訓的一個課程跟營隊第二個部分就是說其實這是雞生蛋誕生雞其實同學講了一句話讓我覺得很有道理就是說"},{"start":7406.835,"end":7430.34,"text":"其實不能說學生參與率低是因為他們沒有足夠的賦權導致學生會沒有辦法在學校裡面被學生認同說他可以幫同學爭取更多所以怎麼來協助學生會有更多的賦權支持參與那其實學生會可以在一個健全的制度之下正常的運作我覺得這是一個非常重要的那剛剛次長你也回答到我現在要問的一個問題"},{"start":7431.34,"end":7455.719,"text":"就是負責監督學生會這個學生議會呢他們也在問卷中有建議說青年署應該要規劃訓練課程例如說議事規則學生權益法規的嚴厲組織的運作及校務的參與等等這一些相關的課程都是可以很具體的協助學生在學生自治的組織的參與那我想問一下目前有沒有針對學生的剛您有回答說有這樣的課程"},{"start":7456.88,"end":7474.223,"text":"那這樣的課程我們每年會辦理局長我們去年以去年來講有多少學生有參與課程謝謝委員我們每年大概針對學生業務的承辦人員就是在暑期的時候針對幹部是在九月的時候那參與的人數大概都有達到大專院校的七成左右"},{"start":7474.724,"end":7490.634,"text":"那另外我們除了我們自己由上而下的規劃之外我們今年對不起114年我們也針對學生會可以由下而上的自己針對他需要的主題大部分可能是財務的管理那或者是在學生自治的法規他們也可以申請經費自己去自辦相關的徵人"},{"start":7491.724,"end":7512.542,"text":"如果如同剛才回答了有七成的話那應該也來算是蠻踴躍的啦但是這樣的課程參與了之後對於整個學生你們有沒有再有一個回饋的機制讓他們在參與課程之後去了解說實際上對他們的整個學生會運作會認知有的幫助"},{"start":7514.103,"end":7534.534,"text":"是我们都有针对就是学生参与演习之后再收集他们的一些回馈跟满意度好本席认为说其实意思规则学生权益来讲这些对于学生会学生来参与学生会跟学生议会是有很大的帮助学生他们了解自身的权益也是他们学习这个民主法治的这个参与重要的历程"},{"start":7535.134,"end":7558.893,"text":"那如果有這樣的課程我希望說我們也盡量鼓勵學生們可以參與那也希望說除了學生會的成員有意向來參與學生議會運作的這些人之外我們也希望說有更多的課程是適合所有大學生參加的課程協助他們了解他們權益以及相關的學生自治的事項"},{"start":7560.254,"end":7589.33,"text":"為什麼就是學生會之於其實學生會之於學生就像一般的工會之於產業我也會鼓勵我們地方的產業去參加工會其實你單一廠商的問題是個案可是工會發聲就是大家都認為很重要的問題學生會也是你單一學生的問題好像就是你自己的問題可是學生會幫你發聲當你在學習上在受教權有受到權益的時候學生會會是維護學生權益一個很重要的力量喔"},{"start":7589.87,"end":7609.987,"text":"好 我們接下來再說各大專校院學生會常年存在的一個問題就是學生會選舉的投票率很低次長你看一下你們的調查報告可以發現欄位上最高的區間是30%以上代表教育部裡面也認為說投票率高達到30%以上應該算是學生會選舉的投票率的極限"},{"start":7611.468,"end":7635.534,"text":"學生會投票率這麼低包含很多問題就像一開始我們提到的時候很多學生他覺得我不知道學生會在做什麼或者說不清楚學生的權益那所以很多學生他連上網投票他們都不願意去投票他不願意到他們有到現場投票連上網投票他都不參加那這個部分呢次長您覺得教育部我們可以怎麼樣來促進學生參與學生自治這個相關的活動"},{"start":7636.374,"end":7662.5,"text":"所以這個問題也跟學生會的一些同學討論過了確實我們要從讓學生會給更多的賦權包含說他們在校會的參與在臨選的參與在跟學生生活有關的相關的會議參與讓同學可以看到學生會可以幫到他們什麼我想這塊就是學生會一直在爭學生代表一直在爭取的部分"},{"start":7662.94,"end":7682.402,"text":"所以我們才說教育部我們一定會全力來支持這個部分但是細緻的參與的狀況可能還是可以看它是個比較近近的過程每個學校的規模 大小 風格文化背景不太一樣這裡面應該讓它有一點彈性讓學生會跟學校之間不是鐵板一塊的關係我想這塊"},{"start":7683.502,"end":7702.83,"text":"本席之前也有參與過就是學生跟學生團體開過座談會所以在針對這個部分本席也會有自己修法的版本那我們說了學生團體的訴求之外我剛剛提到的這個學生會的財務的透明監督以及學生參與這個校園民主的部分那其實次長您剛剛講到一個重點就是父權"},{"start":7704.01,"end":7727.087,"text":"那到底這個我們給的權限我們給的參與的程度到哪裡就是要大家細緻的討論那我也希望說廣大各方的意見尤其在22號23號我們會有一個校長的會議之後我們希望各方的意見都來參採那我們能夠提出院版的條文讓我們的整個的大學法是"},{"start":7727.307,"end":7753.949,"text":"更符合我們現在大學生他們在大學校園裡面他們所需要的他們可以因為大學法在大學校園裡面能夠不受那麼多限制但是可以充分的學習這是我們努力的目標我們也是肯定學生會或學生組織願意跳出來來協助大學跟教育部這塊的推動謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":7756.27,"end":7776.889,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員 謝謝次長請回座現在請林怡及委員質詢之後就休息10分鐘謝主席喔 重新宣告休息時間有請朱次長有請朱次長委員好"},{"start":7777.754,"end":7788.299,"text":"次長好今天我們持續進行大學法修法的討論那本席跟范雲委員跟陳秀寶委員我們在上一屆2022年的時候就有參與大學法這個委員會的細緻的討論只可惜沒有到三讀"},{"start":7794.122,"end":7812.717,"text":"好那這一屆我們再重啟修法除了當年的提升學生權還有大學評鑑等事項我都有寫進去自己的版本以外那當然這幾年我們面臨的大學法改革跟這個少子化加劇還有就是私校治理的困境種種的挑戰所以我們要來重新來審視這大學法"},{"start":7816.96,"end":7831.394,"text":"那朱次長你在大學法的公聽會你有坦言說在討論校長遴選委員跟校務會議的這個定位還有這個老師權益的保障跟這個學生自治參與這四個面向"},{"start":7832.975,"end":7853.135,"text":"我們應該要先思考大學的定位那以及這個公司力這個學校角色的不同那所以是不是先請市長來談談在本次大學法要修法的這個時候你對於三年前我們修法的時候你的想法有什麼不同"},{"start":7854.66,"end":7878.318,"text":"跟委員報告其實教育部的立場沒有改變過要說有什麼不同的展望我想分剛剛委員提出的四個主要的面向其實有兩類以我們學生知識參與跟老師權益來講這其實並沒有什麼公司的不同這跟自己的架構沒有關係這是應該是一致的也是我們一起要來努力的"},{"start":7878.618,"end":7905.754,"text":"那这一块其实我觉得在这两年也经过委员们跟同学跟老师的一些反应之后其实大学也慢慢认识到这一块应该是要往前跨那只是大学希望说再往前跨这个过程能够渐进式的因为要避免大学遇到一些不确定的一些状况所以他们希望说渐进式的比如说我刚才也报告过有没有可能学生校会也先跨到八分之一那至于说"},{"start":7906.454,"end":7925.829,"text":"离同学的期待五分之一或四分之一的一段距离这段距离有没有可能让大学看每个学校的一个实际的状况有一些调整比如说学生的参与率等等那这个部分我是觉得可以朝这方面找到大家的一个最大公约数那这个是在学生跟老师权的部分另外"},{"start":7926.63,"end":7944.989,"text":"刚刚委员提到另外一个校长临选跟校务会的参与这就会有一些公私立对这个就是等一下我要跟你探讨的问题对这个是有不同因为以私立大学来讲教育部的教育部跟大学角色在私立学校会是教育部董事会跟学校"},{"start":7945.689,"end":7968.538,"text":"會再多一個董事會所以某種程度董事會它在整個私校治理來講它辦的角色是有點跟教育部是有這一塊是有一些差異跟我們跟國立大學是有些差異的所以這塊我們要留意當然就是說如果延續朱市長你總結這幾個面向我覺得我們再一次來修法討論"},{"start":7970.479,"end":7998.207,"text":"是要以校園民主治理為主軸也就是說不管是校長的遴選或校務會議代表還是說學生自治的保障都應該跟校園民主息息相關所以在這幾點中用學生的聲音如何落實變成校園治理的重要參採因素我覺得最為重要當然在這個同時我們也要留意校方是否有難以執行之處"},{"start":7999.387,"end":8025.76,"text":"所以我們拿私立大學的校務會議來看這次修法的版本很多都有提及說校務會議教師代表中沒有兼行政主管職務的人數的規定可是還有學生代表畢業問題就剛剛你說了幾分之幾可是同時也有私立科大協定會的人士指出如果有些大學老師如果人數就是不夠"},{"start":8026.4,"end":8045.049,"text":"或者因為少子化的關係學生人數也不夠那這樣的規定就讓校會很難以成會所以在校園的實際的狀況跟理想和修法好像不能一體適用所以如何來面對這個不能一體適用的問題這個可能也是我們修法的一個重要的指標"},{"start":8047.27,"end":8075.041,"text":"可是我們還是不能放棄這個民主這個治理校園民主治理的深化那只是怎麼樣彈性配套或者是說我們思考這個規範的密度應該要到哪裡那朱市長你在上次的公聽會也有說在私校校務會一方面校長這個董事會還有這個全校師生三者之間的權責到底怎麼樣都必須一起討論那所以請教市長就我上述提的一些問題特別是針對私立大學"},{"start":8075.441,"end":8087.739,"text":"就是對應到這次大學法的修法那你認為要怎麼樣的解方才能去取得衡平就是我們是不是來思考暫時跟私校公校做差異化的處置"},{"start":8089.4,"end":8111.983,"text":"你覺得 根文報告我想第一個這次修法在整個校務會議的運作其實在94年修大學法的時候事實上是把學校的治理分成兩大塊一個是校長的行政權校長行政權這個部分他會受到校務會議對於學校重要事項"},{"start":8113.264,"end":8132.163,"text":"的一个审议的监督我想这两个目前在整个大学法的架构底下是框架得非常清楚那在施效法里面又加了一个董事会进来那加一个董事会进来之后董事会的角色他是比较属于事前的审核跟事后的监督在"},{"start":8133.304,"end":8161.771,"text":"執行當中學校校務的執行當中他應該是要尊重校長的職責那再一步是監督董事會跟校長之間他們的權責發揮這個運作機制夠不夠我想這是在私校的一個治理結構如果以目前來講這樣的治理結構我覺得運作上基本上沒有太大問題但是比較大的問題可能就是注意到一些細節比如說董事會他過度去干涉校長的權限那這部分其實就在私校來講他就已經有違背了"},{"start":8162.031,"end":8181.296,"text":"那下一步怎麼去處理這些問題這其實是另外就是一個問題了那另外在國立大學這個部分校務會議怎麼去好好地兼對重要事項的監督它並不是直接去監督校長而是說我校務會有哪些重要的決策哪些重要的事項"},{"start":8182.176,"end":8205.009,"text":"我是要經過消務會議同意而不是說消務會議時時刻刻去自然下場這部分是合作的關係有點像行政跟立法這種感覺所以我想這塊但是這塊大家比較在意的是說那我消務會議老師的組成這個部分是不是可以更具有代表性跟多元性我想這個就是一個很好的解方也是這次大家提出來的重點之一是"},{"start":8206.49,"end":8234.409,"text":"談及校園民主治理的深化我們焦點還是學生很重要就是說我們怎麼樣把學生的聲音如何化作影響力學生團體長年在倡議就是希望增加學生在校務會議中的比例當然很關鍵因素是在於能不能達到校務會議的提案門檻學生的比例能不能達到提案門檻我想這是學生團體最在意的"},{"start":8236.25,"end":8259.588,"text":"有關於學生自治保障的部分教育部有個行政法規叫做大專院校學生會運作原則修正規定那這個規劃的面向很多那我們是不是有機會把一些原則提升到法律的位階這個值得討論再來就是說我們在上一屆的時候我們在審查的時候也有提及說我們有共識就是說大學要因輔導"},{"start":8261.93,"end":8283.49,"text":"學生成立由全校選舉產生的學生會就等於是大學應輔導學生會修正為大學應協助學生會也就是說從字面上意義鬆綁了大學對於學生自治團體的過度介入然後也強化了校內所謂的自治團體的保障"},{"start":8286.312,"end":8303.434,"text":"所以本席參考學生團體的意見有提出學生會的專章也試圖從各方面去提升學生的自治保障另外也想跟朱市長追蹤說前陣子朱市長你有應范雲委員的邀請跟一群大學生座談"},{"start":8304.315,"end":8322.142,"text":"那你又允諾說會計數提出版本那就提升學生權的部分那教育部的立場如何那是否能允諾增進這個學生公共的參與跟自治跟學習能力的目的更願意賦權給學生 次長"},{"start":8326.144,"end":8353.083,"text":"我想這個是可以雙管齊下的大學法修法怎麼提升到法律位階來保障學生自治參與這塊是我們現在跟委員一起在努力的但是在修法的當下我們同時比如說透過委員剛剛關心的學生會運作原則這個部分的修正來協助我想學生是主體不是輔導本來是輔導我們就是上一屆有共識來協助學生有更多的賦權"},{"start":8353.963,"end":8379.379,"text":"在現行沒有修法之下可以做的我們先來進行我想這也是我們努力的方向那這塊我們就雙管齊下一起配合委員來努力好 次長謝謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦委員那次長請回座我們現在休息十分鐘下一位發表委員為張雅玲委員十分鐘之後再開始進行"},{"start":8385.498,"end":8399.803,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8999.687,"end":9002.23,"text":"好接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席邀請次長有請次長"},{"start":9015.302,"end":9039.652,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長就是說我想今天我就來跟次長好好來討論這個學生團體因為我們這一年來去年開始有陸陸續續跟了很多的學生團體討論大家關注的幾個重點就是說在校長遴選的部分還有就是校務會議學生能夠參與的比例以及最後一個他們學生自治空間那我想我們先從校務會議因為這個以前就已經有討論過"},{"start":9040.913,"end":9047.973,"text":"所以我想要請次長先回想一下這個十分之一當時到底是怎麼定出來的"},{"start":9048.78,"end":9076.952,"text":"好 我跟委員說明在94年修大學法的時候剛好那個時候我是科長沒錯那時候在處理的時候我們有開一個全國的學生的一個自治會議先分區 然後在台大開一個大會那十分之一是在那時候提出來的一個共識所以是當時學生團體的共識是嗎對 最早的時候根本沒有這個規定我知道 就在94年之前是沒有但是在第十屆第五期的這個"},{"start":9078.903,"end":9095.598,"text":"教文委員會的第十次會議也就是111年的5月19號當時您也提出到說當時您是司長您是說可以改成八分之一那這個八分之一的依據又是什麼呢八分之一是當時在11年討論的時候因為委員"},{"start":9099.361,"end":9115.759,"text":"立法院有討論那時候也是沒有院版所以那時候我們有跟大學有做了一些溝通那大學下場的希望是說確實十分之一已經做了將近15年了那如果有機會用漸進的方式先提到八分之一來做討論"},{"start":9117.745,"end":9141.932,"text":"大學的期待是這樣子好 我了解那我想再請教一下就是說其實我在教育部的人權教育資源網看到有一篇討論校務會議學生代表比例的文章它裡面就有講到十分之一是否是一個適當的比例它認為關鍵不在此而是在於各校關於校務會議提出臨時動議的比例是否高過此一比例"},{"start":9142.592,"end":9162.439,"text":"因為既然學生代表參與了會議可是不應該只能出席卻毫無作為否則只能出席對所有提案都只能乾瞪眼的話那根本就沒有參與的意義所以我找了一下每個學校的一個版本那你也可以看到就是說大家的規範跟差異都相當的大那我想當初"},{"start":9164.84,"end":9187.418,"text":"這個大學法給予的十分之一那又設了這些限制之後就很然讓學生覺得說你根本其實沒有要給我實質的討論的權利所以現在學生就會希望說我們是不是可以把這樣子的比例提到五分之一那他們這樣一旦擁有了20%的席次的話他們就比較容易擁有臨時動議的提案權來阻止一些不合理的規則"},{"start":9188.419,"end":9212.278,"text":"那我不曉得說現在次長你們的想法是什麼是 這點我在跟同學們座談的時候同學也提到其實比較是一個獨立的提案權就是可以由學生來獨立提案那這一塊以部裡面的評估應該是我們可以來協助學生積極跟大學來溝通所以我現在是以這個方向在跟大學溝通說讓同學是不是有獨立的提案權"},{"start":9213.259,"end":9230.462,"text":"確實 不然現在從三人 五人 八人 到十分之一都有沒錯對好 所以我想這裡面就有兩個問題就是說學生的席次跟他們能不能夠進入實質討論的部分那剛剛聽起來都有已經在討論那我也有聽到前面也有說到好像一月底的時候吧"},{"start":9233.004,"end":9250.36,"text":"22232223两天都有全国校长的会议好那我希望这个部分也要带回去跟校长们讨论因为我们之前自己也有询问一些校长他们也有提到一个重点就是说他们为什么觉得这个学生的想法有点至爱难行因为实务上很难找到这么多的学生"},{"start":9251.061,"end":9276.383,"text":"这是他们的一个想法但我想这个部分还要涉及到学生有提到就是他们开会总是在那种什么期中考期末考其实就实质上增加了他们参与的障碍所以我想这些问题也希望都要在这个会议上面一并的来讨论因为我想校园自治还有这个让学生有更多的公共参与的练习都是非常重要的是"},{"start":9277.043,"end":9298.212,"text":"好那再來第二個問題就是有關於校長遴選的部分因為現在有特別學生擔心的就合併的時候他們根本沒有意見機會校長的部分他們基本上很難去表達他們的意見因為校長又關係到了整個學校治理的一個方向那不曉得說是不是可以加入我們的學生跟教師的代表不曉得教育部的想法是什麼是"},{"start":9299.373,"end":9316.745,"text":"謝謝委員我想以公立我想分公私利來談以公立大學的校長遴選來講目前45個公校裡面已經有29個學校是已經有把學生代表納進去了那部裡面我們也期待說我們透過我們現在的一些政策工具來"},{"start":9318.386,"end":9339.463,"text":"讓更多學校能夠加入因為我還是要強調校長是領選領選重視的是有代表性跟多元性那學生跟老師能夠參與到校長領選這是很重要的一個表徵所以這是教育部努力的目標所以公立大學已經有29校在有實施學生代表那這塊我們會持續地用一些政客工具來引導"},{"start":9340.203,"end":9367.155,"text":"私立学校的部分会比较保留一点是因为目前私立学校有董事会但是以教育部的立场来讲我们也是希望私下的临选更应该要有公共性的话更应该有多元跟代表所以这块也是我们努力跟私下沟通的好 因为像听起来就是说教育部有一些想法因为毕竟从上个会期到现在应该要有充分的一些讨论了那我想1月22号就要开会了是不是可以把当天的议程"},{"start":9368.22,"end":9383.443,"text":"可以提供到我們辦公室這個部分因為是議程是由協進會在處理我想會用我們把他們目前有一些討論的草稿或放下先提供給委員對 但是我覺得教育部還是要有一個想法提供因為畢竟是討論嘛所以我覺得這些想法應該都要放進去"},{"start":9383.863,"end":9408.99,"text":"那再來就是說我想要提到一個比較嚴重的問題就是我們人才培育政策的結構性失衡現在雖然大家都在講AI所以我們很多的政策的導向其實都是會往這個方向往科技領域所以就會造成從這張表上面我們可以看到我們的社科的學生其實人數是在下降的那特別是說我們可以看到這個商業級管理學門的人數是降到了28%"},{"start":9410.51,"end":9435.281,"text":"那我自己會認為這是一個很大的問題在於說因為其實我之前有去年前年吧我去採訪了一個我去拜訪了一個哈佛大學然後他也是AI人工智慧學校的校長然後他也是中研院的院士孔院士有提到一個很重要的關鍵就是說科技AI持續發展因為他也是這個領域的可是他覺得人文社會的學科是可以引領科技依然保有人文的關懷所以"},{"start":9436.121,"end":9455.979,"text":"而且它會建構一個更明確的方向不會只有從技術的方向可是我們現在整體的政策上面從我們的這個審計部的報告可以看到我們雖然宣稱要推動跨領域人才但是跨領域人才往往是變成人文附屬人文附屬於科技"},{"start":9458.463,"end":9479.96,"text":"人文附属于科技而不是平等的整合例如我们会要求人文社会学生补修城市设计可是我们很少要求工程跟资工的学生在制度性里面要补强公共议题跟伦理社会分析的部分所以这样子的跨领域其实是双向的吗还是它根本就是一个单向的那是否可以检讨我们现在的跨域政策呢"},{"start":9480.66,"end":9496.397,"text":"是 跟委員報告其實我剛剛在回答葛國勇委有提到我們現在是要教學生能夠應用AI工具能夠用AI工具去解決問題能夠負責任的去使用AI最後有一個其實就是人文社會可以著力的點"},{"start":9496.917,"end":9518.338,"text":"我们怎么去发现AI做不到的那我相信我们如果要找出新的创新AI做不到的就是在人文社会科学领域最有机会所以现在来讲大概分两个层次来讲我们在做的台卡人工智慧大联盟里面我们就是以跨域的方式有提供应用课程跟技术课程给不同对象的"},{"start":9519.179,"end":9542.121,"text":"同學來做跨域在工程跟施工的學生也有被邀那個會通識多少教育部我們有四年的通識計畫這四年通識計畫裡面怎麼針對科技領域的學生讓他具備有人文的思維然後能夠在未來的AI的運他在做一些開發的時候能夠把這樣的思維融進去這也是台灣未來的一個很重要的工作那這個事實也是我們在處理的"},{"start":9542.261,"end":9568.842,"text":"好 我想因為時間到了我簡單再陳述一下重點因為這件事情不是只有孔院士提到包含去年9月親子天下他們採訪了不管是MIT或者是芬蘭各個全世界很多在發展AI領域基本上是很強的專家學者他們都提到了這個概念就是如何在人文思維人文素養裡面導進去才能夠去確保我們的科技發展不會走歪"},{"start":9569.562,"end":9588.109,"text":"特別是說在現在的很多的AI的應用上面其實會大部分使用的其實是兒童兒少就開始使用所以如果我們今天一旦沒有掌控這個風險的話就會造成後續可能兒少的這個最佳利益受損所以我有個最後的要求就是說我們是不是可以針對人文社會語文商館等學問的結構萎縮提出一個風險性的評估"},{"start":9589.79,"end":9618.358,"text":"好 第二個我們是不是可以在未來招生跟補助與計畫中涉入納入學門結構平衡作為政策目標而不是只有產業需求所以是不是可以提供這兩個的改善方案給我們好 沒問題那大概多久可以提供呢如果既然已經現在有現在是我們可以把一個月整理一下提供給委員可以 一個月以內好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那官員請回座現在請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":9625.288,"end":9652.203,"text":"有請次長有請朱司長委員好次長早今天是要跟您我們繼續討論大學法2025年底就去年底我跟非常多的師生團體共提大學法三大修法面向一個就是完善治理與監督機制一個是強化師生權益第三個是"},{"start":9653.483,"end":9681.533,"text":"開放彈性的新高校因為我們都知道AI時代我們需要的高校應該會跟過去不一樣那我也要講一下說從上一屆到這一屆那真的就是要等到能夠實質討論這個議題的機會非常的少那有一個原因是因為教育部的版本一直沒有辦法出來那因為我想等教育部可能等不及了所以我自己就決定好好的擰我的版本的"},{"start":9682.193,"end":9700.234,"text":"完整的大學法修法因為上一次在賴平委員擔任召委的時候我們比較是針對校會的學生比例我記得應該是四檔達到共識五分之一可是當時我就覺得問題不會只有在校會的學生比例是全面性的那這邊是要讓次長知道"},{"start":9701.836,"end":9727.195,"text":"這幾年來做了多少事那我為了要提出我自己的版本因為我想等教育部可能我不如自己先來處理我辦了兩場大學教師的諮詢一場大學主管的諮詢三場校長副校長的諮詢請他們給我意見也辦了第一線的行政的諮詢還有四場熟悉高教政策的那包含就是我們的前教育部長的諮詢"},{"start":9728.456,"end":9747.247,"text":"那也召集我擔任召委的時候辦過一場公聽會那我也在智庫相關的智庫教育的智庫報告跟諮詢那他們也請了一些熟悉大學治理的學者專家來跟我討論那當然也跟教育部辦的座談這個教育部就知道那我還有跟協進會師生團體座談"},{"start":9749.989,"end":9777.814,"text":"最後也謝謝大學校長的協進會等也給我幾面書面意見我也請教了立法院法治局給我的草案意見綜合評估做了非常多的調整這只是列出這一年半以來我的版本所做的一個諮詢的工作我想我們在教育部之前提出來就希望你們有一個比較好的基礎再從你們的角度希望能夠提出更精進的版本"},{"start":9779.094,"end":9786.924,"text":"那先講就是我的版本的三大特色第一個當然現在最重要的爭議就是校務會議的組成"},{"start":9789.326,"end":9815.464,"text":"那当然大家知道就是当我们开始主张大学自治的时候其实我们企业的大学是一个有完整能够自我监督自我管理的部分可是我们现在看到要当上大学校长非常非常的难临选的过程中有乱象就不先讲了能选上校长的当然他有一定的能力跟实力可是他选上之后"},{"start":9816.044,"end":9845.193,"text":"完全沒有一個有效的一個校園民主的監督機制那主要的原因有兩個第一個最願意講話的學生比例太多低十分之一我也是大學教授你要在校會中講話如果還沒有升等的幾乎不敢講話升等之後要不要得罪人所以那裡面又佔行政職的比例過高所以在這裡面就是完善治理監督的部分我們認為應該要有這三個方向落實"},{"start":9846.253,"end":9860.544,"text":"師生治校完善校長選任跟續任機制還有強化公正第三方的監督角色包含評鑑跟諮詢公開那我也要回顧一下我們上一次大修大學法是2005年"},{"start":9862.666,"end":9880.407,"text":"那個時候其實確定了校務會議不是最高決策機構它是讓校長重行政決策校務會議是重問責監督可是這個問責監督有沒有辦法發揮因為大學法的十分之一後來變成天花板"},{"start":9881.428,"end":9901.497,"text":"幾乎都是各校的上限學生要連署重要的議題要召開臨時校會都完全沒有辦法湊到人數現在我們也知道18歲公民權已經落實了他甚至可以在家自學透過AI他要把四年的寶貴時間來大學拿一個學位為什麼不讓他能夠有更高的參與機會"},{"start":9906.119,"end":9921.635,"text":"另外一個狀況就是校長的人馬或者是主管也是教師代表的情況佔多數所以你可以看到這個圓圖基本上這個橘色就是主管跟少量職工代表佔40%"},{"start":9925.198,"end":9943.383,"text":"在這樣的情況下這個校會有辦法監督校長如果有一些不恰當或是沒有充分諮詢大家的政策嗎時間真的不夠我能講到十分之一我想這個台師大女足抽血案學生會長站出來台師大"},{"start":9944.403,"end":9962.706,"text":"都不願意改變後來來找我們立委北大也是學生會長講話還被關麥因為校方要強迫搬宿舍他們還衝來教育部跟我們開記者會所以你可以看到這些18歲未來就有投票權的人他們在大學裡面的地位多麼的卑微"},{"start":9964.292,"end":9987.623,"text":"我們講一下大家都說台灣的學生還不夠成熟會不來開會如果開會沒有影響力為什麼要去開會呢請看一下18歲公民權是國際趨勢我們看一下其他的高校怎麼治理這個部分很多是我辦公室自己整理的荷蘭它的模式跟台灣比較像就是校會比較是監督它叫做大學理事會"},{"start":9988.063,"end":10015.603,"text":"他的大學法就規範大學理事會教職員學生代表各佔50%法國制度不完全一樣他接近校務會的學生代表是20%就是1%到1%歐洲其他因為那個是老牌民主國家新興民主國家他們的愛沙尼亞在學校的所謂的接近校務會的Senate裡面國會裡面學生代表佔20%至少捷克是佔"},{"start":10017.024,"end":10042.939,"text":"30到50%非常支持我們的捷克你們教一部自己做的研究羅承中教授主持的研究計畫告訴大家說就是為了平衡保障主管參與教師代表不得由主管兼任但是可以保留主管代表也告訴我們美國的其他事他可以列席主管可以列席但沒有投票權這是別的民主國家的大學治理結構"},{"start":10045.117,"end":10074.008,"text":"教職員的權益也非常需要保障現在階段公立大學就出現很多亂象私立大學亂象更大以教師評鑑為例監察院的報告就說有大學教師被要求要協助招生然後教師評鑑才能加分或者是不支領教師的終點費教學評鑑可以加分所以還有教評會教育部規定三審就是那還可以校長自己跑出第四審一定要用自己的人馬"},{"start":10074.948,"end":10089.595,"text":"所以你教育部有辦法管他嗎大學自主所以我們這其實也是對教育部來講才真的能夠更好的大學法因為你現狀幾乎只能用經費來扣管否則沒有辦法管到大學的亂象"},{"start":10090.735,"end":10105.353,"text":"學生權益就不用再講了就是三十校的調查學生會的困境非常的多他們在財務上有困境然後13%學校不讓學生獨立選出學生代表還用指派的"},{"start":10106.294,"end":10135.294,"text":"那明明就是应该学生可以迁户籍可是只有少数的大学让他们可以迁户籍所以它形成就是它也没有一个相关的那我们认为学生权应该要定期施作所以最后我要讲的是我的版本还有一个能够面对未来20年的开放环形大学AI浪潮跟少子化大学需要什么现在我们大学一个学期上几周都要教育部来管"},{"start":10136.354,"end":10163.142,"text":"以美国来讲有quarter制也有semester制事实上大学真的在AI浪潮跟少子化下需要更多的这是史丹佛大学去年提出来的开放环形大学所以我的版本也希望能够让校长他们也在抱怨教育部管太多我真的觉得大学法是规范要规范的有些教育部不需要管的也能够给校长端他们想要"},{"start":10163.442,"end":10186.889,"text":"好好的辦學的一些彈性那包含目前的制度來講就是教育連週數縮短都要教育部同意那目前少子化下公司並難度也都很高都可以讓我們的大學更好所以包含學制的彈性大學學分的彈性公司合校那當然最重要的是要給高校爭取更多的資源"},{"start":10187.429,"end":10203.631,"text":"所以我的版本是有做了這麼多的努力為未來的20年能夠畫這個藍圖如果我一個立委可以做到我相信Joybook有更多的資源可以給我們更精進的版本那請問次長Joybook這次何時提出建議條文呢"},{"start":10205.454,"end":10227.137,"text":"跟委員報告我非常非常感謝范議員從這幾年來對於整個大學法的一個投入跟支持也形成我們現在因為我感同身受很多的朋友都在公私立大學教書常常接觸學生因為有委員的努力讓我們在跟大學在大學溝通的時候會有一些基礎可以來做討論那我們"},{"start":10228.618,"end":10244.431,"text":"在22223 在校長會議這個部分會針對兩位委員 趙偉跟委員班本的會議提到那邊去做進行討論很高興你們終於跟校長溝通了我們上一次審大學法是三年前 2019年在22223大學校長討論之後我們會把校長們他們期待的一些"},{"start":10254.999,"end":10269.024,"text":"那個版本或是他們條文的建議我們會再跟相關老師或學生找到一個共識版本那這個共識版本因為下個月就下個會期我們希望能夠在下個會期就能夠有一個共識版本"},{"start":10269.824,"end":10296.761,"text":"那我也想希望教育部有自己的理念不是校長跟學生的意見加起來除以二就是最好的版本那這個部分你要有背後的想法請參考一下所有的民主國家高教是怎麼治理的好嗎好那期待教育部好謝謝昭偉好謝謝范雲委員持續在關心高教發展那官員請回座現在請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":10305.01,"end":10328.6,"text":"謝謝主席我請教育部朱次長請朱次長委員好次長好這個因為財政委員會有一個專報就是說如果行政院總預算沒有過的話對我們115年度我們的預算執行會有什麼樣的影響所以我想要請教因為我們教育部的預算同樣尚未審查如果預算真的沒有過對我們115年的執行會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":10332.962,"end":10358.64,"text":"跟委員報告我想分兩個部分一個是新興項目一個是延續性的部分在新興項目的部分我們在國立大學校舍老師的整建部分有提了15億那這15億其實是希望以五年的時間然後有75億來協助國立大學老師教授的一個整建跟文資的修繕那另外我們還有無人機載具的人才培育計畫"},{"start":10359.58,"end":10381.326,"text":"還有竹竹苗地區高中的一個新建的一個校舍因為竹竹苗地區的那個新竹地區的一個學院人口有增加那最後還有全國高中一個污水排水系統的提升那這些都是新興項目如果沒有審議的話事實上我們都會影響到這四個大案子的一個推動"},{"start":10381.986,"end":10406.688,"text":"另外在延續性的部分雖然延續性的部分我們還是可以按照去年的預算先執行但是如果此時沒有審查的話萬一有未來有一些增休增三那可能也會造成我們在預算執行的困擾我們執行了結果預算被砍了那這個部分也會有問題所以這塊其實很希望大院能夠協助部裡面的預算能夠擠出來審議"},{"start":10407.429,"end":10435.297,"text":"延續性的計劃有可能會沒有辦法來執行但是新興計劃是確定會無法執行那因為這個之前我很關心啊在你們新興計劃當中特別大專的老舊校舍因為你們這個計劃是五年連續計劃嘛那是特別要針對說超過40年以上然後需要耐震補強而且結構性危險的建築物有立即急迫性的我們趕快來補助那因為我覺得整個關係像舊聯台大 台大資源最多"},{"start":10435.757,"end":10451.41,"text":"台大我們徐州路校舍我以前念書的地方到現在不是超過40年超過100年以上的好幾棟到現在還有沒修的那整個台大這樣的古蹟有大約有70棟這個就需要補助嘛那我請問一下現在如果你這個清淨計畫"},{"start":10453.692,"end":10473.684,"text":"沒有過那之前你們說請台大先來申請那現在怎麼辦是學校先來跟你們申請我們再看看有沒有過還是等到最後結果完了再請學校來申請因為這個計畫是1月份的嘛怎麼辦呢怎麼做因為我們我們在115開始是有專項經費來支持那現在的做法都是"},{"start":10474.224,"end":10489.915,"text":"用布裡面我們既有經費我們有補助請他們先來申請我們先從那邊去雲芝請他們來先來申請但是所以我們還是希望啦我們這個預算可以要審查要通過這些才有辦法來做好那接下來呢我先請市長你來看一個影片是硬要把它跟政治貼上標籤這就是腦殘"},{"start":10498.939,"end":10504.511,"text":"好 這個是兩天前發生一個新聞事件但是對我來說 我覺得它是一個很重大的"},{"start":10506.004,"end":10534.688,"text":"教師倫理教學倫理的一個事件所以我想要來跟市長討論因為我們有公務人員服務的誓言所有的公務員都是要行政中立關懷民眾勇於任事所以我們討論這個事情我們不討論他的政治性也不討論意識形態因為他源頭是說這個有個北一女的老師不是這位老師 北一女的老師她把蔣文安市長的一個演講轉傳那她讚許說這個演講很棒事實上我也認為我們市長演講很棒"},{"start":10535.308,"end":10552.861,"text":"但是學生有表達不同的意見那在這之後呢這位北運營的教師歐貴茲教師因為他透過媒體公開的發言說學生是腦殘等於是公然的透過媒體去羞辱跟公審學生因為他是具名的所以我就沒有匿名區辯識化處理"},{"start":10554.742,"end":10571.806,"text":"那這個我認為這個已經有違我們教學倫理跟教師倫理那因為台北市政府至今沒有對這一個教師他這樣的公然透過媒體去說學生腦殘羞辱公審學生台北市政府還沒有做出回應所以我想要來討論因為我認為這個事件就算沒有違反教師法"},{"start":10577.628,"end":10601.708,"text":"他可能也已經違背了我們的這個公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法在我們這個考核辦法當中有幾點第一個 嚴刑不檢 致損害教育人員生育第二個 有不當行為 致有損學校名譽第三 教學輔導管教行為失當 有損學生學習權益我們是不是有這個考核辦法 市長"},{"start":10603.31,"end":10611.476,"text":"這個考核辦法是有嘛我先說齁其實我們民主社會都尊重言論自由教師跟公民一樣都可以有自己的政治立場"},{"start":10613.232,"end":10634.038,"text":"但是如果你一個老師你的教學的本質 責任應該是你對學生有不同意見 可以啊你可以跟學生辯論你可以跟學生討論 甚至你去引導學生去思考可是他是透過媒體然後公然的說學生就是腦殘只是因為學生的政治立場跟老師不同我認為這個很不恰當"},{"start":10638.826,"end":10648.159,"text":"那既然我們有這個考核辦法當中我們對教師的專業倫理其實是有明確規範的是否有違可以來進行討論"},{"start":10651.309,"end":10673.729,"text":"確實 如果我們期待的老師在教學的時候應該遵守教育中立然後客尊他本來的一個專業精神而不是於應該是引導學生去建立一個好的公民素養所以這個部分我們先前其實也都要求各縣市政府要督導各級學校要去落實這個部分的一個奉祭"},{"start":10675.097,"end":10702.328,"text":"好沒有錯所以我認為教育部我希望你們可以來跟台北市教育局來關心啦因為目前為止我看台北市教育局還沒有回覆因為我覺得一定要保障學生的權益那我們要完完全全的依據行政中立這個事件我們不是在討論說這個市長的演講好不好不是也不是在討論說老師可不可以有政治立場也不是而是一個老師他教學的專業倫理是什麼"},{"start":10703.769,"end":10728.886,"text":"是 我想克尊教育中立是在教育基本法很明確的一個認證好 那我希望台北市教育局可以趕快來關心這一個事件有沒有來違反我們的教師的專業倫理我們來請台北市教育局好 接下來就是大學法今天我們是討論這個大學法的修法上屆要開始討論那麼我們的招委也召開過公聽會我們的范雲委員也主持過公聽會"},{"start":10730.407,"end":10740.942,"text":"那麼所以討論已經有一段時間但是呢我看教育部到現在還沒有修法的版本我們在下個會期以前教育部有沒有辦法來提出版本"},{"start":10741.55,"end":10765.471,"text":"我們目前也是希望在下個會期能夠有一個各界溝通完一個定案的一個共識版本出來作為大家討論的一個參考好我希望這個時間還是要有一個時間表下個會期應該是可以有來凝聚共識那我自己最關心就是學生參與的部分第一個是校會會議當中學生比例的代表是不是要提高第二個校長臨選委員會中"},{"start":10767.293,"end":10793.756,"text":"要不要有學生代表這個因為我們之前看到有幾件學生在監督學校的時候受到阻礙的案例剛剛范瑀委員有提到台北大學宿舍案學生麥克風直接被關掉第二個我之前關切過北一大的這個前校長陳校長的這個案件那當時學生有關心但是一樣也遭受到這個阻礙所以呢我認為在具體的在校務會議當中要有學生代表的比例要把它提高這點我認為很重要"},{"start":10794.236,"end":10817.105,"text":"因為我們的青年基本法也剛通過我們要落實青年的公共參與這具體而言制度要來調整這個部分次長你的看法我想在校會議裡面學生參與是非常重要的一環目前大學的共識也是希望說十分之一已經實施二十年了漸進的往前提高到八分之一或許是一個選項"},{"start":10818.866,"end":10841.117,"text":"至於要是不是再提高因為學校就會考慮到每個學校的規模他的一個學校的狀況學生參與制度程度不同大學是希望這塊能夠就有一些可以影響調高的比例可以討論但是方向要朝調高一定要漸進的來修改那麼校長臨選的會議現在現行的大學當中我們有幾層的是已經有學生代表"},{"start":10845.939,"end":10866.515,"text":"我們如果以公私立來分公立大學公立大學四十五校裡面已經有二十九校有學生的是公立大學其實已經有將近七成都有學生代表了是我們期待的是未來能夠希望未來如果我們朝向校長臨選會議都有學生代表的修法方向的話現在教育部你們的看法怎麼樣呢"},{"start":10867.176,"end":10882.549,"text":"我還是努力的希望透過這個方向跟在依照這個方向跟校長溝通工藝大學因為其實實務上已經在推行也許私校會有一些意見那就請你們教育部要再多加的溝通討論好不好好謝謝市長謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩儀委員那官員請回座現在請林楚英委員質詢"},{"start":10892.81,"end":10920.432,"text":"林楚英委員林楚英委員不在請鄭天才委員質詢主席有請教育部次長有請朱次長委員好朱次長好這個大寫法第35條"},{"start":10922.709,"end":10948.385,"text":"第二项特别规定政府为协助学生就读大学应办理学生就学贷款这个规定的很明确依据大学法35条授权的规定也就是高级中等以上学校学生就学贷款办法这个办法里面的第七条"},{"start":10949.915,"end":10975.368,"text":"这个家庭年所得总额超过新台币120万元这个是一个数字这个次长知道这个120万元是什么时候在这个贷款报告里面定出来的如果我没有记错应该是在112年底113年初的时候好我告诉你民国100年9月20号"},{"start":10981.206,"end":11009.389,"text":"当时修正的时候就是这个第七条第七条的第一项的第一款家庭年所得总额为新台币120万元以下所以100年了所以到现在115年了所以已经超过超过14年了"},{"start":11010.526,"end":11021.607,"text":"这么长时间所以应该从物价指数各方面物价指数包括相关的这些条件确实是应该要修正"},{"start":11023.019,"end":11049.089,"text":"這個次長可以修正這個金額根文報告因為其實在一百年的時候是一百一十四萬那我們在一一三年的時候已經把它調整是一百二十萬然後一百二十萬以上如果家庭子女達到一定的人數的話好沒有關係我們再查我特別查的好謝謝委員全國法規資料庫裡面的除非是錯誤如果全國法規資料庫有錯誤你們要跟他們講"},{"start":11051.45,"end":11070.223,"text":"時間差 沒問題不管是怎麼樣都是應該要調整從這幾年大家對各方面的這些的一個基礎都有在調整這個就是希望如果"},{"start":11071.877,"end":11095.832,"text":"直接定在這個大協法35條那更好 這個是習近平委員還有本席也連署提案的一個當然審查的時候希望大家一起來討論好 接下來我昨天也提了這個數字近五年大專校園學生出債協力從107學年度"},{"start":11100.123,"end":11126.599,"text":"延漢的落差原住民跟非原住民的差距31.9到了113斜年度落差一直在增加現在是高達36.85%當然除了剛才我昨天昨天質詢的方向希望教育部能夠去調整支持之外"},{"start":11128.612,"end":11156.649,"text":"我们先看这个我现在谈另外一个议题也跟这个有关系跟这个我们的出债协议会有关系我们看111学年度大专以上学校结生了休退学的人数如果我们看这个全国跟原住民的一个比例也有差距很大"},{"start":11157.748,"end":11182.965,"text":"我們看這個前體學生我們就看大專因為剛才的數字這個數字也包含博士授書我們看大專大專前體學生修學比例5.87原住民學生大專學生10.55將近一半4.68的高達"},{"start":11188.547,"end":11217.089,"text":"比一般学生高了4.68将近一半这会跟他的所得收入都有关系跟退学常常要去打工学生成绩当然就不好了就会有退学的状况退学也是高达落差5.63这样的一个落差所以我昨天也有提到"},{"start":11220.761,"end":11239.647,"text":"這個有關我們的相關的這從108到現在都沒有調整我們的協雜費的減免那個部分也都沒有調整所以這個部分啊原住民學生不多但是次長您應該可以支持"},{"start":11240.891,"end":11263.533,"text":"原住民的教育的提升是重中之重好不好部長 社長我想 謝謝委員指導我想針對原住民學生如果讓他能夠穩定的就學現在我們除了用學習來取代工讀來降低學生他在一些課外一下去打工"},{"start":11264.253,"end":11282.463,"text":"抽出費用那我們再透過高教生跟也有相關的助學措施來協助那我們現在再跟原民會跟考選部一起在談怎麼去加強原住民的人才培育我想這一塊謝謝委員的指導我們一定會把它當為重中之重剛才講的那兩個部分這個優先來處理我們會來助理 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員那市長請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11295,"end":11305.178,"text":"现在请罗廷伟委员质询谢主席有请次长有请助次长"},{"start":11309.327,"end":11326.676,"text":"委員好好次長好今天我們審這個大學法上週五下午就知道的議程週五不算6日123算到昨天週三上午就好有4天半的時間可以寫但是為什麼報告是昨晚10點才出來"},{"start":11328.154,"end":11352.146,"text":"跟我們報告因為我們裡面會有涉及到不同的私處不同的團體的意見所以我們也花了一些時間做了一些整理希望把最完整的一個意見呈現給各位委員好 我也希望是最完整的但是今天的書面報告扣掉封面跟木刺是23頁通篇看起來主要是彙整大家的意見"},{"start":11353.186,"end":11381.112,"text":"教育部的意見大概也只有一頁也沒有具體的表達整個政策的方向這樣還要寫這麼久我想這個彙整應該是蠻費時的但是市長今天我的大學法第35條版本其實不是在第一次在委員會上就再提出了早在2024年的4月18日委員會就有討論過那時候排審的是柯昭偉柯志恩委員的35條版本"},{"start":11382.554,"end":11397.158,"text":"他的用的是家庭所得金額適用稅率12%以內教育部在當時的報告我強調是當時因為用家庭所得金額適用稅率的12%納稅單位集聚為121萬以下約佔總納稅單位的92%所需增加的預算大概是411.81億元"},{"start":11412.931,"end":11439.863,"text":"約相當於113年高校預算法定的預算的32.27%因此為大幅度的一個排擠避免其他的教育支出所以不同意修法在今天的書面報告就大學法35條就只有一段2024年那個時候還有六頁在說明怎麼大小差這麼多"},{"start":11442.186,"end":11451.933,"text":"35條是重中之重次長在當次的質詢既然不同意家庭所得進額的一個適用稅率在12%"},{"start":11453.464,"end":11482.511,"text":"我就拋出所得五等份讓最低20%的所得者免學費聚焦真正弱勢的與中低社經背景的這些家庭那個時候我記得是劉次長還答應我說教育部會提供一份所得五等份最低的20%所得者的一個評估報告但是那一份報告我到現在都沒有看到"},{"start":11483.411,"end":11508.064,"text":"好 請問一下所得五等份最低20%所得者大概需要多少的經費您知道嗎好 跟委員報告我想如果我們會後再把這個評估送給委員那以目前我們的推估大學校院大專以上學生目前大概109萬那我們因為這樣只能用推估推估起來需要的預算大概要將近100億100億是"},{"start":11510.886,"end":11530.445,"text":"所以是有算出来了只是我还没拿到资料不好意思如果确实先前没提供委员我们会要尽快提供给委员会后提供给我好不好但今天你说的大概是100亿那教育部现在的回应呢你们觉得呢这个评估要不要调整成我所建议的你觉得呢"},{"start":11531.193,"end":11560.553,"text":"根文報告以目前高教跟技職兩師一年的預算大概是1325億那如果說要從裡面去雲之100億來講那大概影響的一個幅度大概是8%左右了對不起 幾%大概是8%左右所以這一塊可能我們才會希望說在受影響的對象我們來評估一下8%你個人認為影響的幅度會不會很劇烈"},{"start":11562.033,"end":11588.542,"text":"因為原本的版本在所得稅金額這個總額是12%的話12%大概是312%411億那現在變成8%你覺得呢我跟文報告目前高計兩施整體投入不管是學雜費減免就學貸款的利息補貼或是我們拉近學雜費方案已經投入238億了是"},{"start":11590.723,"end":11613.796,"text":"那我们一年高教生根我以目前各公司一大学我们在协助学校做教学特色发展高教生根一年的预算也大概是200亿上下所以如果要再挪100亿出来事实上我们必须要很慎重的去评估当然要慎重因为所有的钱都是用在高教这个部分我们都希望花在刀口上但我认为大概8%"},{"start":11615.757,"end":11637.071,"text":"100億差不多我認為這個部分的影響是沒有這麼劇烈的我們所提出的這個方案也算是一個折衷的方案也務必請次長將這個方案在你們的內部會議好好的來做一個討論可以嗎好我們會來評估那個影響的範圍跟所需要的經費我們會盡量來看看有沒有其他的方式第二件事情"},{"start":11637.651,"end":11658.818,"text":"市長大學法距離上一次較完整的修正將近20年這段時間我想高等教育的整個生態環境早就已經徹底的改變了跟以往是根本不一樣的少子化帶來的招生壓力不會我們也相信你們應該都掌握到地方的意見部分學校面臨退場公私校間的一個分化快速擴大"},{"start":11659.838,"end":11687.198,"text":"学生参与还有监督的意识高涨社会越来越要求大学展现出公共性还有社会的责任面对这样子的一个变化现行的大学法我觉得没办法因应我们的期待所以这是排审的版本其中有一个是部分讨论到校务会议的学生代表的比例以及现行法规不得少于十分之一有提高有提高这个部分希望能够要增加我也有问过"},{"start":11688.078,"end":11707.535,"text":"学校部分的意见当然他们是说支持提高但提高的额度希望能够讨论但教育部的意见呢跟我们报告我想教育部第一个我们当然是支持能够让学生的自治参与在校务会议可以进一步的落实所以你支持提高我们是支持提高"},{"start":11708.195,"end":11726.813,"text":"但是我們也顧及到每個大學我們為了降低大學它可能每個學校的狀況我知道 校園自主 董事會的意見希望有些學校自己的做法對 那我們目前收集意見對 目前大學目前我們收集來的意見大學普遍是希望從十分之一能夠先提高到八分之一是 對"},{"start":11727.614,"end":11745.209,"text":"那至於要不要再往學生代表建議的說能夠到五分之一這個部分可能就是有需要教育部再跟大學從音效自己的角度來做你還要收集多久意見還要給你多少時間目前是希望說在因為已經有14個委員的版本出來了"},{"start":11745.99,"end":11774.012,"text":"那我们在1月22、23会在校长会议来让校长针对这个部分凝聚出公式版本那我们会把这个公式版本再来跟学生跟相关的教师团体跟关心的人士们一起做讨论希望在下个会议我还是要提醒市长我们问教育部就一个很根本的问题提高比例是否等于实质参与你觉得呢"},{"start":11775.135,"end":11803.741,"text":"這個部分就是學校最關心的有這個不確定性所以學生自知不能只看席次而是要看到整個發揮的影響力如果學生代表無法充分取得校務相關的資訊在程序上人被動的參與那麼就算比例提高也只能是形式上所以教育部在制度上的一個設計該怎麼強化學生代表的資訊權還有讓學生在校會議真正有聲音有力量"},{"start":11805.002,"end":11824.138,"text":"次長 誠如我剛剛所說的整個大學法距離上一次的修正我覺得已經不符合期待了所以包含大學合併須經校務會議的同意維護師生的權益校長領選的納入學生代表的一些相關權益我覺得這個部分都是回應大家的期待很多項目我知道要討論"},{"start":11825.479,"end":11853.834,"text":"學校也有給我們一些意見我必須坦白講但是綜合的部分在怎麼樣去凝聚更大的共識我希望教育部要有更大的力度可以嗎好 非常認同委員讓同學能夠有足夠的資訊跟無障礙的去參加整個學校治理這是同學期待的也是我們要來跟大學溝通的地方昨天好 謝謝理事長另外一個問題要跟您請教昨天有週刊的一個封面"},{"start":11855.681,"end":11877.578,"text":"人口危机向世界抢财抢人才市长全球高度的竞争人才当然台湾也在这个竞争的行列但现实就是台湾自己培育的人被大量的国际市场挖走过去十几年台湾是一个人才净输出的国家不仅吸引不到其他的国家"},{"start":11878.869,"end":11889.208,"text":"頂尖的人才台灣自己培養的理工金融優秀人才大量的被歐美中國新加坡歐洲等國際"},{"start":11891.527,"end":11915.782,"text":"來處理掉被他們挖掘所以這是一個不爭的事實這不只是教育現場的問題更是經濟的問題國家經濟不正國內的工作環境不好我們這一次也遇到了很多學校跟我們反映我不講哪個學校但跟我們講僑生以及外國學生的一個招生的問題狀況的問題你知道目前有很多的困境嗎"},{"start":11917.386,"end":11943.463,"text":"對他們來說招生不易然後教育部並沒有幫忙而且給予了很多的限制你知道嗎我覺得可能學校有誤解這幾年我們透過跨部會的會議其實打通了很多僑外生來台跟留台的一些相關的措施我知道 有但是他跟我講這些措施不管是很繁雜甚至很多的問題需要更大力度的溝通讓它簡化所以"},{"start":11943.883,"end":11966.558,"text":"我要在這邊帶到的是細項我就不在這邊討論我們會後繼續來針對這個部分但是我要跟你講的是我知道你們有努力但是這個努力的進度我認為還可以有所進步所以很多學校跟我講僑生的部分希望能夠給予更多的幫助這個方向應該是我們要努力我希望我也來彙整一些意見到時候要跟你們來討論"},{"start":11967.318,"end":11994.403,"text":"市長 這個是你答應我可以我們來做深度的交流嗎對 我們也期待如果真的學校在現場遇到什麼問題不管是教育部的或是其他部會需要解套的我們都願意來做溝通好 當然後面但是學校也要承擔起該負的責任我還想講當然 當然不會把責任都丟給你們但是我希望是你們是做他的靠山而不是開了一個門卻有很多的阻力是 今天趙偉站起來了但我後面原本想問你不管招生還有現在流財"},{"start":11995.763,"end":12014.458,"text":"在台就讀的科系相關的資料因為能夠在這邊讀書在這邊培育人才在這邊就業是我們最終目的那這個部分我們也要有一些誘因我們會後再來討論會後我們再跟委員做報告謝謝謝謝羅廷輝委員就協助謝謝然後讓你先回座現在請武力華委員質詢"},{"start":12030.336,"end":12033.431,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":12036.651,"end":12063.815,"text":"委員好次長好這些年其實我們常常遇到一些高教的陳情案那以近期來講大家都知道的就是例如我也有受理高參大他們的校長遴選現假學歷的風暴所以一直難產中那像是台師大的女足抽血案甚至是台大涉姦性騷案也燒掉了我們的次長那您也很清楚"},{"start":12064.275,"end":12081.058,"text":"我也是这些年来都在帮忙马远遗骨返还案目前也是僵持在那边所以我们可以说我们面对高教这一块经常的碰壁这个壁就是大学法大学自主"},{"start":12081.919,"end":12102.805,"text":"那大家都一概的在喊说已经20年没有修环境都已经改变了大学的治理的架构也不同了那一个出生的孩子20年又已经变成大学生了所以呢我们也都有提出修法的版本那我个人呢像是第五条我就觉得教职员学生的权益保障"},{"start":12103.565,"end":12122.39,"text":"這一些他的救濟違法事項我們希望納入大學評鑑因為目前就沒有就不怕像是第九條的話校長遴選委員會我個人就是覺得裡頭現在很多的法因為性別主流化都會提到性別的比例"},{"start":12122.87,"end":12139.27,"text":"但是不要忘記我們賴總統他從當市長開始就在推族群主流化但是我們族群主流化的概念還沒有普遍的深入到我們的法令當中所以我也希望在這個委員會裡面原住民身份的委員比例"},{"start":12139.73,"end":12154.423,"text":"也必須要被保障那又或者說學生的權利調查在第33條之3我也希望納入不同性別不同族群身心障礙者不利處境的一個學生經驗那我之所以會這麼說"},{"start":12155.484,"end":12183.781,"text":"是因為我們這幾年大學校園真的歧視事件層出不窮像是台大最著名的火冒4.05帳就是在取消原住民學生甚至是台大經濟系的學生會選舉你看大家都要關心僑生的聲音體育生的聲音可是他們的政見可以把原住民僑生體育生放進去希望能夠減少所以在這個當中就是即便"},{"start":12184.241,"end":12206.076,"text":"像東華大學有這麼高比例的原住民師生他都還是出現歧視事件說他們在烤肉在翻糕所以我覺得這個部分我剛剛提的那幾個法我要修的我希望能夠正式能夠納入那再來我就是要提到原住民的高教的問題我也質詢過非常多次這六年來那我為什麼要這樣子講"},{"start":12211.34,"end":12232.889,"text":"因為我們看到原住民學生的出債學率我每一次都提我們可以看他們在國小出債學率跟全體是沒有什麼差異國中也沒有什麼差異高中也沒有什麼差異可是到了大學是斷崖式的下降差距落到將近40%實際上是38%在113學年度這是一個要"},{"start":12238.812,"end":12262.851,"text":"等同我们从20年前一直在呼吁的原住民的平均余命离全体国人是10岁这是世界的笑话所以我们要透过政策去补齐同样的高教这个地方出债学历这么大的断崖式落差非得要用政策来补齐所以我想先问一下因为我也关心很久了"},{"start":12263.331,"end":12289.626,"text":"就是自從我們賴總統去年1月上來我們私校的這個學雜費補助它有上升但是因為原住民沒有享受到所以呢它其實那個gap是越來越大的這個斷崖式的落差會不會越來越大所以我一直說原住民學生的學雜費減免的額度也要去做改變那不曉得這個部分進度如何"},{"start":12291.929,"end":12304.56,"text":"谢谢委员针对于原住民学杂费减免的额度提升委员确实有关心过很多次没关系时间关系用书面报告也可以书面报告我想再一个"},{"start":12305.615,"end":12325.062,"text":"我回到委員剛剛提的這個數據是確實是讓人很震驚的就是說一旦跳脫我們十二年國教之外到了大學這個階段這麼的大是所以這個部分確實經濟因素是個考量那如果經濟因素補足之後讓同學進來他可以安心就學不要那麼高的休退學的情況"},{"start":12325.962,"end":12352.463,"text":"我想这是第二个所以这个部分我们在原资中心的角色怎么去协助我们现在就是跟原民会还有跟考选部都在做一些讨论希望能够把它架构起来那次长我就接续你来说确实经济因素一定要补齐所以这个学杂费减免一定要检讨我希望你有检讨吧有好谢谢那接下来你讲到原专班原资中心这也是一个问题"},{"start":12353.183,"end":12372.853,"text":"我們現在的原專班等同一個大學的科系因為一個大學的科系也就是40到80人平均但是他有7名專任教師可是我們的原專班弄了一個要點他說到補助一名專任教師補助一名專任助理"},{"start":12373.894,"end":12387.315,"text":"這個部分這一名教師壓力很大而且合適的原專班老師數量也不足所以這個後頭都必須要有一些配套措施例如高教原住民師資人才的一個培育"},{"start":12388.777,"end":12408.57,"text":"我們再來看一下他有提到說學校聘專案教師者也要有一個轉任專任教師的機制但是好可惜我們也接到很多的陳情他們不被學校接納雖然你文字這樣寫他不被納入正式的體系所以我們合理的就是認為大家講的"},{"start":12409.691,"end":12429.469,"text":"現在的原專班對很多大學來講他只是為了要當作一個招生的工具然後呢面臨最後的停辦我們教育部原民會也沒有總量管制讓很多的原專班本來很優秀的生存不下去再來提到原治中心我們原本希望原治中心好不容易"},{"start":12430.47,"end":12458.361,"text":"全國的大專院校都已經開設但是我們也在為他們爭取專任助理從沒有到有一直到現在每多一百人再增加一人我們也已經要求他們的薪水要比照國科會的標準但是你知道嗎依舊就算有一個研制中心他有七名的專任助理仍舊研制中心還是一位其他可能放在校長室不知道放在什麼地方"},{"start":12459.461,"end":12479.766,"text":"為什麼因為你們用要點要點雖然寫得很清楚不得一座他用專款專用不得挪用都有寫但是沒有人理會因為我剛剛講了銅牆鐵壁大學自主所以這個就凸顯這個入法的重要性再來提到原專班沒有規劃沒有上位思考"},{"start":12480.786,"end":12507.692,"text":"現在變成審核就開 審核就開但是我們看一下你看護理長照 社工設計都是刻板印象很多大學開設我們原本是依賴他們學校的強項科系來為我們做原住民高教人才培育但是我們發現都是落入刻板印象像園民會 我們有園民特考園民會建議的我們原住民自治人才培育"},{"start":12508.092,"end":12534.419,"text":"我們應該要有一個原住民自治的一個藍圖 尚未思考我們要電資的 環境的像現在有原住民族博物館博物館的人才 農業的人才 土木的人才法律的人才 地政的人才 零所以我在這邊只是要去特別提到說我希望原專班要扣合政策目標那怎麼辦 你看台清 交 城 政這些大學"},{"start":12535.439,"end":12553.386,"text":"沒有開過原專班教育部你們一點都不會去指導嗎因為他們不缺學生這就落實了會開的人只是把原專班當作是招生工具這是很悲哀的所以這個部分我特別希望說能夠有一個改革納入"},{"start":12554.326,"end":12572.667,"text":"已经新一起的115到119的原住民族的教育中长城计划要把这些改革纳进来像是结合原住民的特考考科去做制度性的调整用人的直系的引导我们需要什么样的人才原制中心的一个强化"},{"start":12573.348,"end":12592.219,"text":"還有一個就是很重要我覺得要有示範學校的一個推動可以去責定一些大學來去做一個示範然後補足原住民的專任師資那我覺得教育部就是我希望你們可以趕快來做這件事因為我還是回到我剛剛講的原住民高教這一塊斷層"},{"start":12594.421,"end":12609.532,"text":"這個斷崖式的落差這個一定要用政策來引導那我希望教育部就是全面的盤點原專班的開設情形檢討經費課程質押納入學校的編制校內編制提出改善的做法"},{"start":12609.952,"end":12628.424,"text":"那大學法的體系內必須要有族群主流化的精神符合原教法的精神那希望可以納進去那原住民族的教育中長城計畫我也希望這一波可以納入原住民公務人才的一個培育那甚至是拔尖高教人才我是希望說"},{"start":12629.284,"end":12657.023,"text":"能够去跟一些大学合作做海外见习实习计划全额的奖学金然后就业的导向衔接到国外的研究所那刚好可以去嫁接我们这一次的这个青年基本法已经完成三读像是外交部它有一个先锋人才培育专案我希望我们教育部也可以主动去盘点结合那在这个部分我真的是希望说能够有像双联学位这些想法"},{"start":12657.823,"end":12681.139,"text":"假设我们的在学校大一大二他原专班他先跟大家一起读大三大四再回来或者是跟国外嫁接他可以大一大二在台大两年然后嫁接国外的夏威夷大学三四然后可以取得两个学校的一个学位那我想这个部分其实最终我都希望能够入法因为只有入法"},{"start":12682.08,"end":12699.256,"text":"學校才不會不當一回事是那不曉得次長您的意見如何謝謝委員委員剛剛提出來的幾個建議都非常的具體那我們除了會納入我們原住民中產城計畫裡面把它融入之外針對於原民"},{"start":12700.077,"end":12723.199,"text":"原民专班 原资中心包含刚刚委员提到的一些人员运用的一些缺失这我们都会来检视然后把它做个调整教育部不会没有办法如果学校真的滥用的话教育部该出手就会出手那有关于在原住民人宅的培育我们最近也尝试了跟原民会因为它会主要是针对业界跟部落嘛"},{"start":12723.639,"end":12740.295,"text":"我們跟考選部針對公務人力教育部這邊我們要針對當然是我們高階人才尤其是剛剛委員特別提到的我們要足夠的師資我們也去盤點了目前在哪一些學門領域原住民的教師是相對的比例比較低的"},{"start":12740.695,"end":12767.377,"text":"這就是我們未來優先希望能夠大學肩負起來培育的責任教育部 園民會 考選部 權序部 人事總署都能夠一併的來做一個跨部會的進入到我們的中長城計畫裡面好不好好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝武麗華委員持續的在追求原住民的各項的利益那也歡迎請回座"},{"start":12770.123,"end":12772.388,"text":"現在請翁曉琳委員質詢 時間4分鐘有請次長有請朱次長"},{"start":12785.256,"end":12804.546,"text":"好 谢谢市长那么我想今天这个修法的主题其实环绕一个很重要的核心概念就是大学自主那么大学自主的精神要如何落实我想这个是所有的高教都非常关心的一件事情那么请问一下学术交流属不属于大学自主精神的其中一环"},{"start":12806.577,"end":12815.325,"text":"这个部分只要不违背相关的法令我们当然都尊重大学的自主现在有哪个法令是限制不能去自由的去做学术交流"},{"start":12816.989,"end":12838,"text":"我們目前對學術交流本身大概有兩個部分一個是人員 就人員的移動當然有一些可能比如說像沒關係 你就簡單講人員移動還有學校的交流學校人員移動還有有些是技術因為我們有些關鍵的技術我們會限制它跟國外的一些交流大概就這兩個"},{"start":12839.02,"end":12857.45,"text":"现在我们的教育部部长他今天没有来他当然是很害怕来他自己身为一个台独顽固分子不敢去大陆那他为什么要限制所有的老师们所有的学校的教育团体都不可以去大陆去进行学术交流"},{"start":12859.415,"end":12886.842,"text":"教育部並沒有限制我們是提醒學校在進行到附大陸做學習交流的時候你們該提醒嗎你們該提醒嗎你認為說所有的高校人員都沒有這樣的一個常識知識不知道自己保護自己嗎去做學術交流會有產生什麼危害如果說老師們自己擔心的話學校自己擔心的話他自己可以不用去啊他可以不去啊但是問題是現在作為一個教育部部長"},{"start":12888.615,"end":12897.981,"text":"他可以做這樣子一個建議提醒嗎請問一下教育部今年有沒有編列兩岸交流的預算呃有有所以你們是鼓勵還是不鼓勵"},{"start":12899.264,"end":12924.095,"text":"我們鼓勵跟各國一起做交流我先講兩岸交流的預算因為兩岸交流的預算是特別的嘛是另外有一個便利預算當然啦這個基本上就是每個高校學校還有裡面的教授們要去哪一個地方基於他學術的專業去哪裡去交流我想大家都可以自行的判斷本席真的認為教育不管太多了"},{"start":12925.342,"end":12951.895,"text":"教育部部長自己是井底之蛙自己因為意識形態作祟他不去就算了那為什麼教育部長要做這樣的提醒而且甚至你們現在還修改了行政規則根本就是違反兩岸人民關係條例還對所有的大專院校的老師未來去大陸進行交流要申請教育部核准是嗎"},{"start":12954.915,"end":12972.253,"text":"老師可以去那當然只要有公務身份的像公務人員或是教師如果要赴大陸的話我們當然都有一些提醒事情所以如果說他不是公務人員身份的老師那他去大陸進行學術交流需要事前申請核准嗎一般老師赴大陸對"},{"start":12975.23,"end":13003.328,"text":"這不是教育部核准他要行政只有行政職的部分我們教育部有管制非行政職沒有兼任行政職的老師要赴大陸我們有一些提醒事項一些什麼事項提醒因為畢竟大陸只是提醒事項所以你們沒有要求要核准對不對行政職的一定就跟公務人員一樣行政職的要核准然後非行政職的不需要核准也不需要事前的總之是不需要事前的申請許可"},{"start":13003.948,"end":13032.651,"text":"那個部分要回到學校他本來老師請假要去哪邊要離開他的工作崗位本來就回到學校請假規定要去是就是回到學校的請假規定所以請假沒有規所以學校的請假規則如果沒有規定說非得一定要事先提出許可的話那麼基本上就老師可以自由移動不管他現在是在放假的時間或是他是在這個學校的開學的時間對不對寒暑假時間老師們就可以自由移動"},{"start":13033.631,"end":13050.223,"text":"對 要依照學校請假規定因為不是說假日你要去像我們出國我們也必須要跟單位報備我是說回到學校的請假規定現在學校裡面的老師週末假日或是寒暑假出國基本上是不需要向學校請假的"},{"start":13051.218,"end":13074.833,"text":"就回到學校的請教規定如果學校規定沒有那我們當然就尊重學校但是監情甚至就不是一樣就不是這樣子好然後OK那接下來本期要再進行到第二個問題就是來我們看一下大學法第13條大學自主的精神基本上也包含就是大專院校要聆聘就是各個院系所聆聘主管對吧"},{"start":13076.445,"end":13098.73,"text":"依照系大学法的规定院长系所主任等等他是依照学校的组织规程的程序来选出系所的主管包含院长请问次长您知不知道现在有多少的大学里面没有依照大学法的规定去定定各系所或院的这个主管临选办法"},{"start":13101.069,"end":13119.564,"text":"因為這個規定要在組規那組規的部分所以如果說校的組織規程沒有規就是它沒有說是要求各個系所要訂或是它根本不准各個系所去訂定的這種遴選辦法的話是不是各個系所就無權可以去自己去班訂"},{"start":13120.485,"end":13143.436,"text":"自己去制定 一定要定 因為大選法已經寫清楚就必須在組織會議去明定他的所以所有的系所 院都應該要自己去定他應該有個主規的依選他的系所的這個主管的依選辦法那麼依照現在的這個就是我們有經過去調查一些大學裡面現在的目前的情況就是"},{"start":13144.963,"end":13169.865,"text":"有些系所單位他自己選了依照自己的辦法他自己推選出來的主管然後到了校長那邊校長要去勾選竟然可以去勾選根本不是系所所推薦出來的所推選出來的教授來當主管本期這邊就收到類似像陳情案"},{"start":13171.075,"end":13182.162,"text":"只有一個人推選的主管竟然校長可以只有一位被推選的這個候選人校長竟然就選那一票產生的主管"},{"start":13184.042,"end":13202.038,"text":"因為這其實我也可能要回到那個學校它的主規的規定是什麼因為大學有規定是說從教師中選出那怎麼選出的方法有可能是大家推選有可能是你去選這不要看各校的主規"},{"start":13203.759,"end":13218.068,"text":"本席現在要提醒就是各校的主規有時候他可能已經明顯違反大學法的精神了而且各校的主規有沒有符合民主原則民主程序如果說今天可以放任讓一個校長他完全不尊重細索"},{"start":13220.307,"end":13244.037,"text":"教師的投票共同決定到底要推哪一個系所主管出來那麼甚至當選的這個系所主管沒有經過過半數老師們的支持可能甚至只有一票或兩票的支持那麼校長就可以自己決定那這樣的話其實有落實大學自主的精神嗎本席是希望"},{"start":13245.077,"end":13265.444,"text":"就这样的话我们来聊解一下对 把这个议题可能发个文然后请各个大学提供相关的他们目前的组织法的一些情况以及有哪些系所自己本身没有临选办法或者是说有哪些大学里面是各个校长可以直接去指定"},{"start":13266.224,"end":13289.421,"text":"系所主管的我觉得这个部分基本上它会影响到整个系所的大学自主的这样的精神那么本席是希望教育部能够尽速给你们一个月的时间好吗一个月的时间去汇整相关的资料而且也要注意一件事情就是如果说大学"},{"start":13290.462,"end":13305.62,"text":"有違反大學法裡面的相關規定的時候譬如說他不從副教授級以上的老師然後去選這個系所主任那麼有沒有相關的罰則規定目前看起來大學法裡面是沒有任何的處罰規定"},{"start":13307.38,"end":13335.602,"text":"根本包括因为法已经明定如果说学校他不是从副教授级选出来的下一步我们就会透过像奖补助一些经费的要求来要求学校改善我们的了解只要我们因为我们每年都会订一句牌现在还有一个问题就是说是有些学校他可能订得更严格他是从他只能从教授里面去选择这个系所主管但是明明这个系所可能他目前没有教授愿意担任"},{"start":13336.792,"end":13351.674,"text":"主管然后就是由副教授来担任可是却又给副教授又不发所谓的主管家籍其实大学里面还蛮多这样子一个问题那本席认为说基本上大学法里面记得很清楚就是由副教授"},{"start":13352.415,"end":13379.995,"text":"以上就可以选去推选系统主管所以如果说这个系统的办法里面就是说我可以副教授以上就可以去推选但是学校的组织规程却又只限定是只有教授才能够当系统主管这个可能就会造成一个法律上的一个冲突好 那我们会来大概盘点一下那一个月内更稳做说明好 那就麻烦自张了谢谢谢谢"},{"start":13380.916,"end":13409.79,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員 管委員請回座像這個議題應該可以就是直接就是把資料Paste給教育部 甚至就是鼓勵該校的教授們就去檢舉啊這個就非常具體可以處理的好現在請林倩琪委員質詢林倩琪委員林倩琪委員不在"},{"start":13411.69,"end":13435.189,"text":"現在請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請葉元之委員質詢主席好 麻煩請那個次長還有國教署"},{"start":13440.258,"end":13455.907,"text":"好 請副市長跟國教代表副署長那個 上好我先來關心一個國教狀況因為我之前曾經也有提過現在因為行政大逃亡很多學校高中 國中都有這個狀況就是他們要"},{"start":13456.787,"end":13484.124,"text":"招學務處的組長都招不到一般來說都是先叫那個老師兼老師不願意兼因為工作太繁重所以就找代理老師代理老師前兩招是找有教師證的也都招不到後來就找沒有教師證的代理教師然後有的坐一下就離開坐一下就離開所以其實我有提出一個想法之前教育部跟考試院也願意評估就是說有沒有可能讓"},{"start":13485.853,"end":13506.019,"text":"學務處比如說升教組或者相關組的組內的行政人員像幹事他們是經過教育行政考進去的幹事來代理甚至來升任來解決這個行政大逃亡的狀況然後一方面讓老師教學回歸教學行政來做行政"},{"start":13507.52,"end":13515.977,"text":"那教育部跟當時人事警政總處有說願意評估那我現在更進一步具體的建議一個事情我們現在看一下"},{"start":13517.025,"end":13540.242,"text":"我们现在教育行政的高普考的科目其实它都不是学生事务的专业这个次长你也可以来看一下不是学生事务专业因为现在学生事务专业它的关键的领域都非常的复杂它牵涉到像性贫 霸凌 校园危机处理药物滥用 多元文化还有高风险的学生辅导等等"},{"start":13540.842,"end":13559.375,"text":"那你現在如果讓現場的教師來處理的話那教師原本進到學校都是要教學啊就忽然間你要他來處理這些事務啊我覺得他也會面臨很高的法律風險然後甚至於就是會也會面臨到很多不確定的狀況那如果讓就是"},{"start":13560.782,"end":13585.196,"text":"比如說沒有教師證的代理老師來監來處理這麼複雜的學生事務如果沒有受過相關的訓練一樣也會讓這些代理老師面臨到風險所以這邊具體建議一件事情假設教育部有願意讓公務人員就是考教育行政的公務人員來做這麼複雜的專業的行政工作的話是不是可以"},{"start":13586.833,"end":13608.834,"text":"從這個教育行政這個職系裡面獨立出來一個教育學生事務的職系那這個幾個內容第一個內容如果要有這個獨立的職系的話那你考試的科目就要跟我剛剛講的這些相關的關鍵領域譬如說性平霸凌 校園危機處理這方面 校安有相關"},{"start":13610.066,"end":13632.229,"text":"然後第二就是他們考進去假設他們考進去這個職系之後他分發到學校裡面那他的工作你就把它範圍就定在這些專業的行政工作然後用這種方式來舒緩就是現在在國教學校的這個教學現場行政大逃亡狀況不知道市長你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":13632.967,"end":13659.977,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導我想現在因為已經也在跟人總在評估由公務人員來兼任學務主任的一個可行性主長主長的可行性如果更進一步的從那個直系的一個劃分跟應考科目做處理我想我們可以來跟考選部這邊做一些討論我覺得第一個就是你可以把這個納進去第二個在"},{"start":13661.118,"end":13670.555,"text":"師培的部分因為師培就跟高教比較相關因為都是在大學裡面開相關的科系跟學分你也可以稍微檢視一下我會特別提出來真的是因為現在"},{"start":13672.51,"end":13694.076,"text":"我們現在教育環境跟以前真的很不一樣老師也沒有管教權了都要用什麼自主學習輔導用這種方式去跟學生去處理學生的關係其實變得非常的複雜所以其實應該要檢視一下就是你現在上的課在教程裡面上的課跟實務現場有沒有巨大的落差"},{"start":13695.106,"end":13723.343,"text":"不然的話他在上那個教程的時候他聽起來理論上是這樣怎麼大家到了那個學校去發現怎麼跟那個都講得不一樣然後等到他如果說等到他才去實習的時候因為教程是你要考教職證是先修教程再去實習等到他去實習才發現這個狀況有時候又想要問老師也沒機會了這個部分我覺得在教程方面應該也要納進去討論這是第一件事情第二件事情是"},{"start":13724.81,"end":13731.921,"text":"現在少子化嘛所以很多私校都退場可是我們看到一個數據我要來請教一下次長"},{"start":13733.117,"end":13757.698,"text":"就是這些學生他的學校如果說關校了然後他的休退學的比例是特別很高你可以看很高有的到四成有的到三成八有的到兩成四請問一下次長大部分學生如果他原來的學校退場他不願意繼續就學的原因是什麼"},{"start":13760.134,"end":13787.6,"text":"因為基本上我們在處理退場學校的時候都會幫學生做好安置而且安置的部分會盡量的第一個會當然以鄰近同性子的學校為優先第二個我們會提供住宿的補貼交通的補貼第三個他在休息的一些學分或是學費的差距我們都會來協助所以他退場的原因是什麼就是他不繼續練的原因為什麼 對啊所以你們都沒有在追蹤"},{"start":13788.731,"end":13814.905,"text":"應該是說因為我們都會去逐一的詢問學生你要安置到哪個學校你剛剛講的意思是說假設他沒有辦法安排到鄰近的學校他可能要安排到外縣市去他會延伸住宿跟通勤費各方面你們會補助所以他不願意繼續就學的原因應該不是經濟的問題那有可能是因為沒有辦法安置到他想要讀的科系是不是"},{"start":13815.365,"end":13830.566,"text":"其实我们科学对 第一个这样听你讲你只有回答说不是经济问题但你没有具体回答我的问题的核心就是它是什么原因不愿意继续念对不对它是什么原因所以你们要去统计那都是牵涉到追踪"},{"start":13831.627,"end":13857.959,"text":"你今天教育部當然因為少子化關係教育部安排這些大學退場這是一個趨勢這也沒有辦法可是你不能夠把風險放在學生身上嘛尤其是你現在大學的一個退場的做法是你第一年停招第二年就停辦是不是很多學校是這樣第一年停招第二年停辦有沒有很多學校是這樣那你第一年停招你第一年停招那那個學校是不是有大一大二大三的學生"},{"start":13858.752,"end":13882.41,"text":"第二年停辦的還有三個年級的學生就必須要被安置這個做法實際上是把風險轉嫁到這些還在學校的學生身上所以你要去追蹤你要去追蹤他們被迫轉學之後他是什麼原因不繼續讀難道你會希望說有學生在學校好好的因為學校倒了沒有辦法繼續下去他就不就學你會希望這樣嗎"},{"start":13883.257,"end":13901.391,"text":"所以當然不希望嘛所以這個數字就偏高嘛所以請教育部去追蹤好不好好不好 去追蹤一下然後你一個月內跟我們講一下相關的原因狀況跟我們講好不好然後再來還有一個現象"},{"start":13903.503,"end":13927.52,"text":"現在請教育部來注意一下就是你們現在108課綱有一個學習歷程檔案對吧學習歷程檔案這個下一頁這原來的備審資料下一頁學習歷程檔案現在願意教的學生也越來越少了你可以來看一下像到了這個最新的資料112學年度"},{"start":13929.332,"end":13936.975,"text":"一般學生大概沒有提交已經到47.32%經濟弱勢學生62.32%這個比例市長你覺得正常嗎因為學習歷程大概是他升大學的一個參考"},{"start":13945.277,"end":13966.152,"text":"那你們當初108課剛訂這個學習歷程檔案是希望學生在學習的過程當中自我探索把學習歷程記錄下來然後讓大學作為一個收學生的參考那你當時會希望說大概有將近五成六成的學生不教嗎"},{"start":13967.37,"end":13989.485,"text":"我跟我們報告因為在當時108我們在做整個考招變革的時候學習歷程檔案就是原來的備審資料那時候我們對外一個宣示就是說這個是學生可以選擇的你可以選擇透過我們學習歷程檔案的時候上傳你也可以來如果說有些學生因為他個人的選擇他希望還是用書面的方式呈現"},{"start":13990.265,"end":14008.249,"text":"那這個部分有人選這個但是我們會告訴他說你選這個當然你的一些公信力資料的一個準確性大學就比較沒把握那這部分是讓學生自己選擇所以我們並沒有去強迫說每個學生一定要做對 你沒有強迫啦"},{"start":14009.11,"end":14027.969,"text":"因为你定出这一个指标出来我不知道你有没有你会希望说大家教的多一点吗当然我们会希望你希望嘛对不对对大学来讲他透过系统出来的他就知道他的那个真实性会比较高按照教育部的想法其实是希望说大家有教希望能够利用"},{"start":14029.33,"end":14055.626,"text":"你的希望跟現實就是有點落差而且它有逐年提高你看未提交的比例在110全年度其實算低可是到近年已經翻三倍了接近三倍了那你有沒有去了解原因這個部分我想書裡面應該有在了解會後我們是把這個好不好再資料還有一個你看一下那個老師幫我轉到那個老師被學生攻擊的這個"},{"start":14056.963,"end":14070.929,"text":"這是我們跟教育部調資料近三年學生對教師衝突案件統計表114年度也滿高的就是也是逐年上升現在的教學現場就是老師沒有管教權如果面對比較"},{"start":14072.435,"end":14093.376,"text":"不好管教的學生其實老師面臨到的風險也高那相對其他同學面臨到的風險也很高我有接觸到教學現場有人跟我反映家長很擔心自己小朋友因為他們班上就有一個會傷害傷害同學的同學那當然我知道學校也盡量去處置譬如說"},{"start":14094.91,"end":14123.171,"text":"當那個學生他們感覺他可能情緒情緒要發作的時候他們會把學生帶離班級現場就是如果當事學生他沒辦法自己被帶離那就全班帶離但是還是會有風險那所以家長就會不斷的跟學校詢問說你怎麼保護我的學生你怎麼保護我的小孩就一直問一直問一直問那最後學校說我們盡量我們有一個SOP可是當然SOP一定也會有意外發生那所以如果有受傷的話"},{"start":14124.532,"end":14145.089,"text":"你就去告那个同学那家长听到也会觉得很无奈啊老师也是啊老师如果说他在教学现场如果被学生伤害怎么办他也只能去提告现在就是说老师跟同学其实有的时候面临到这个状况都很难处理的我们这种教育部有没有什么因应之道"},{"start":14146.189,"end":14164.73,"text":"跟文報告我想說針對於現場有這類型的學生我們還是會從學生輔導的角度及時的介入不管是我跟你講這個學生輔導我都聽很久了如果學生輔導你們講的所謂的學生輔導有用的話在現在有用真的這個狀況不會這麼頻繁"},{"start":14167.975,"end":14185.615,"text":"所以不會這麼頻繁即使的介入當然即使的介入不管是老師介入還是有專職的輔導人員介入我們部裡面給他的支持跟他適當的一個徵人這就很重要所以這也是目前我們署裡面有在規劃的"},{"start":14186.736,"end":14211.274,"text":"這部分跟家長這方面的跟這位當事學生的家長的聯繫我想這是三方面要一起來做但是我還是強調即時的介入處理是最重要的沒有 你們講的都理論派我講的是實務 實務狀況現在數據也給你看了就是學生對教室衝突案件也越來越增加這個狀況注意一下好不好好 這個很重要謝謝文綺 謝謝"},{"start":14213.632,"end":14216.838,"text":"好謝謝葉元之委員質詢主持人請回座"},{"start":14220.12,"end":14247.335,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有徐欣盈委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":14248.53,"end":14258.158,"text":"大學法部分條文修正草案相關草案另定期審查報告委員會 今天的議程處理完畢現在散會 謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}