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我們各位委員 各位專家學者我們現在開始開會因為立法院剛通過 三讀通過原住民的不受戶籍地限制不在籍投票如擴大實施之各項選舉罷免或公投投票案是否會造成選務混亂的風險是否會增加境外勢力借選的規模"},{"start":1963.098,"end":1992.011,"text":"相對於不在於即投票可能引發的風險強化民主投票促進法草案中第二條投票日及前一日均放假之規定是否更能促進參與民主參與另外如何防範資訊戰與錯假訊息攻擊破壞民主制度以維持選舉秩序與制度之公正與信任這等等相關議題我們特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見"},{"start":1992.851,"end":2010.944,"text":"我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為修法參考時的參考那今天公聽會我們首先我們先介紹以待武場的專家學者"},{"start":2014.451,"end":2043.16,"text":"好 我們第一個介紹的是謝振宇教授這個謝振宇教授也是我張宏祿的教授對啊 所以我要特別介紹一下然後陳芳宇教授張玉萌理事長曲兆祥教授"},{"start":2049.123,"end":2065.837,"text":"還有我們到場的委員有我們鍾嘉賓委員還有我們的內政部吳長赤還有中選會的張處長還有法務部的謝昌士好"},{"start":2075.815,"end":2103.362,"text":"我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言一出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員要發言的請自主席才登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2104.282,"end":2115.791,"text":"那我們發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束者按鈴兩聲那我們現在先請部會報告請吳長賜"},{"start":2126.952,"end":2150.909,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生還有各位學者大家好首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注跟指導來表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會所召開強化民主投票促進法草案的公聽會本部應要列席報告有關公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部意見依序說明如下有關討論提綱一"},{"start":2153.596,"end":2175.016,"text":"114年12月26日大院三讀通過公職選罷法第57條規定為保障原住民的秘密投票權益選舉委員會應單獨設置投票所或於區域選舉投票所內辦理各種公職人員的選舉投票不受第17條第一項應在戶籍地投票之限制"},{"start":2176.389,"end":2198.722,"text":"議題案委員當天在立法院院會的發言該條文是為解決單一投票所只有三個以下原住民選舉人投票結果無法保密的問題讓有這種情況的原住民選舉人可以移轉到同一鄉鎮市區的其他投票所因此該條並不涉及跨直轄市縣市移轉投票的不在籍投票"},{"start":2200.472,"end":2224.071,"text":"以移轉投票作為實施不在籍投票方式如適用的範圍擴及到地方的公職選舉將會涉及到多達8000多種的選舉票的移轉選務的作業將會高度複雜且可能會衍生選舉人如過度集中在特定縣市政府投票所而衝擊選務的執行量能以及延遲選舉開票時間等等問題"},{"start":2227.972,"end":2254.931,"text":"此外也可能造成單一投票所均有少數其他選舉區的移轉選票會將導致各該移轉投票選舉人的投票秘密無法維護境外敵對勢力及其他不法人士也可能藉由此擴大動員規模操控特定對象都申請移轉到特定地區的投票所投票掌握取得投票的結果以達干預選舉或會選之目的"},{"start":2257.884,"end":2283.381,"text":"此舉將會造成選舉公平性的一個危害那另外有關討論提綱二我們也內政部說明依照立法院民主進步黨團所提強化民主投票促進法草案肯認現行投票制度的公正性與公信力因此在不變更現行投票制度的前提下明定投票日及前一日均應放假一日"},{"start":2284.455,"end":2313.554,"text":"來保障弱勢群體與外地工作就學人口的投票權益並要求政府機關應採取必要措施鼓勵返鄉投票且不得干預投票基於該草案並未變更現行的投票方式對選舉制度的影響程度小如果社會各界對於保障公民參政與社會成本間之橫貧取得充分共識本部予以尊重有關討論提綱三本部說明如下"},{"start":2315.251,"end":2338.133,"text":"內政部警政署為查處假訊息案件已經由刑事警察局結合各直轄市縣市政府警察局共組假訊息查處小組並定班SOP提供警察機關迅速查處不實的訊息如涉及選舉假訊息案件警察機關受理後及報請檢察官指揮偵辦"},{"start":2339.741,"end":2357.496,"text":"另外針對透過假錯訊息以及AI身為影音等新型態的犯罪行為總統選罷法及公職選罷法除有明文刑事處罰規範外並以律定大眾傳播媒體業者的協力防範機制"},{"start":2359.312,"end":2386.417,"text":"又歷年與選務辦理期間各級選委會也都持續加強查查選務跟假訊息的舉報及訊息澄清來防範各種選舉舞弊情勢的發生來確保我們選舉秩序及選舉結果的公正性以上簡要說明 敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2388.243,"end":2410.96,"text":"那我們補充介紹這個我們的賴中強律師還有我們的蔣桂美教授好"},{"start":2411.656,"end":2419.392,"text":"那我們接著請專家學者發言我們按初期簽到順序請第一位謝振宇教授發言"},{"start":2436.411,"end":2459.441,"text":"主席各位委員各位在座的長官各位學者各位媒體朋友這個上面寫東吳政治系教授應該加兩個字退休了年紀比較大所以早上睡不著我想進來是第一個報到的所以不需要多放一天假我們也照樣都可以去老人家都投票去了"},{"start":2461.999,"end":2483.904,"text":"在最近的去年12月26通過了這個所謂的不在籍投票現已原住民那今天的會議的焦點是說民主要讓他更加強民眾的參與這個部分那我還往下拉好不好那我一直認為關鍵沒有找到"},{"start":2487.386,"end":2502.793,"text":"不是不在己的問題是不是要在哪裡投票而是台灣民主已經高度發展可以在所謂的通訊投票這個環節上加強再往下看"},{"start":2505.034,"end":2525.706,"text":"那這個草案的第二條提到前一天放假那我在想如果台灣的一些各種選舉如果不是那麼激烈的話你多放一天假選民你說要補助後面又說要補助這些人要機關行號要給假然後考試院不能"},{"start":2526.306,"end":2551.591,"text":"那人民就多了一天假甚至禮拜天放假連放三天剛好去旅行了就不見得去投票了所以這樣子的一個草案是不是能夠抓到問題的核心所以我一直認為說台灣的政治文化如果我們能夠兼顧到說到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":2552.945,"end":2564.879,"text":"讓老百姓能夠真正提高他的投票率我想這是大院的一個宗旨我們再來看世界各國的投票率一般採行強制投票的"},{"start":2565.836,"end":2588.966,"text":"投票率會比較高那過去的協界的研究也認為說才比例代表制的投票率也會比較高所以這是關鍵不是前一天投票要放假的這個關鍵所在所以前一天投票會提高民主的參與比較到現在還沒有學術界的一個共識再往下"},{"start":2591.493,"end":2598.87,"text":"我們看第三條又說各個工作機關等等有必要提供交通工具的補助"},{"start":2599.921,"end":2623.729,"text":"我們錢好像還不少花在這個部分是不是值得很多民主國家投票其實是老百姓自由的對這個政權到底他是同意不同意讓他繼續下去的而不是靠砸錢下去說我們這樣的話會提高投票率另外就是說"},{"start":2626.004,"end":2641.663,"text":"固然 返鄉投票是一項就是補助這些青年朋友在座也有青年代表待會我們聽聽他意見那這個是一個好的一個讓年輕人能夠多鼓勵他返鄉投票"},{"start":2642.577,"end":2670.391,"text":"特別是年輕人他理想性很高所以他可以擺脫社會上的現有的既得利益各個政黨當然好像都要搶這一塊但是如果是好像用錢來補助那到底這個年輕人回鄉有沒有投票又要在投票那邊又要查證然後地方政府會增加許許多多的或者是選務單位會增加許多的麻煩點"},{"start":2672.134,"end":2696.826,"text":"這是當然我初步的一個推論甚至我們還有一條說鼓勵各級學校要協助這些青年朋友緩鄉我剛剛提到了青年是理想性很高的學校是可以宣導但是怎麼協助我認為像今天有這種草案的話應該邀請教育部來聽聽他的意見"},{"start":2699.258,"end":2715.476,"text":"這個協助就會造成各校可能會競爭因為教育部可能會根據你協助的多我補助你多會不會造成惡性循環西方民主憲政國家有一句老話一個人他的家就是城堡"},{"start":2716.345,"end":2740.025,"text":"這個house is one's castle如果是這樣的話 我們認為西方的話語就是風吹得進這個人的家 雨打得進去但是國王的兵不能隨便進去失人的財產的地方同樣我們也希望教育保持一個乾淨圖讓教育回歸獨立自主"},{"start":2740.819,"end":2767.574,"text":"如果我們動不動就要教育部做什麼做什麼教育部失去他所謂學術客觀的立場這是我想在座的先進們要特別是朝委的政黨的委員要考量我們怎麼樣讓學校能夠獨立自主運作不要增加他額外的這些負擔我們再往下看"},{"start":2769.758,"end":2789.513,"text":"另外有關草案裡面的很多條文其實在憲罷法現在已經有了比如說什麼孕婦老人等等這些狀況是不是回歸到憲罷法裡面的修正就好不需要另外立一個特別的法然後再往下看"},{"start":2792.017,"end":2796.161,"text":"至於說有一些錯假信息我越來越嚴重這個是事實這個部分應該回歸到法務部怎麼樣防治犯罪的一些問題或者是數位發展部等等這些不要徒增內政部的很多的困擾我想當然內政部也有警政的單位可以查查這些犯罪最後我們來看很多的"},{"start":2818.889,"end":2837.004,"text":"这个草案里面有个总说明说新加坡因为有放假所以提高投票率我想这个可能出信息也不太完整新加坡它是一个强制投票的制度它也因为它的海外的20万的公民"},{"start":2837.802,"end":2852.449,"text":"所以他也實施了許多的促進郵寄投票等等這個才是關鍵不是多放一天假我想如果我們的幕僚把一些意見搞錯了那影響到我們的行政效率再往下看"},{"start":2854.935,"end":2877.277,"text":"我想我们立法要与时俱进改进行政的措施也可以让投票率或者让政治参与提高我刚刚从加州尔湾回来我们看看美国的那个通讯投票美国的很多的行政选举的选进措施往下看有一个图这个图是长设在图书馆旁边的"},{"start":2878.138,"end":2892.33,"text":"老百姓投票不限於投票那一天當然有許多州是說早上7點到晚上8點他是利用上班前下班後去投票的也沒有影響到美國的民主被大家覺得是不民主"},{"start":2893.271,"end":2909.654,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣從一些行政措施來改善不是立法院已經很忙了多增加這個法律有沒有必要回歸到相關的法案上來促進我們民主的參與這是我今天發言的重點 謝謝好 謝謝謝正宇教授那我們接下來請陳芳瑜教授"},{"start":2925.906,"end":2953.452,"text":"主席正常各位大家好今天很高興有機會來這邊跟大家分享這個對於不再投票還有這個所謂的民主價這種這個作為一個對岸的這個一些思考那最近很多人很喜歡在網路上面找那個大家以前發言過的這個文章那如果大家回去找一下我個人的那個部落格的話呢可能大家可以發現我在十幾年前還是學生時期的時候呢就是非常的高度的"},{"start":2954.028,"end":2975.687,"text":"讚揚這個不在即投票這件事情但是我就是對於就是做了一些研究之後發現就是我們對於這個這樣的這個政策有幾種思考的這個方式那我現在其實是比較有疑慮的對於不在即投票比較有疑慮最主要是在這個執行層面上面是有疑慮的那我等一下來一一的跟大家說明"},{"start":2976.363,"end":2991.568,"text":"那我們在做一個政策的思考的時候我們通常不管是政治或是法律通常都有一系列的這種思考方式第一個是去看這個需要性有沒有存在這是第一點那在要不要改成全面性的不在籍投票這個需要性的這個層面"},{"start":2992.708,"end":3018.875,"text":"我必須承認就是如果讓大家有最好最方便的這個投票方式確實是有它的這個好處的不過我們現在台灣放豬全世界來看的話我們的投票率是算非常高的在民主國家當中七成左右的投票率是非常高的那我們好像沒有那個急迫性就是一定要說一定要把它改成說讓大家都一定要投票來刺激這個投票性投票的這個意願這件事情"},{"start":3019.695,"end":3035.526,"text":"這在需要性方面可能有點就是必須要再多論證如果要改成全面性的不代理投票的話第二個是在於這整套制度的信任度方面其實我們現在台灣的這個投票制度是全世界全世界都認可的就是全世界都認可的"},{"start":3036.01,"end":3052.419,"text":"在這個我看了一下就是所有的這個專家學者們有提供紙本資料的話就是有很多人提到說現在是一個新的時代有新的科技這個AI時代等等但是我要跟大家講在AI時代其實最能夠提高大家信任程度的就是紙本"},{"start":3053.249,"end":3074.044,"text":"就是現在全世界所有的高等教育呢都在回歸資本的考試因為科技這件事情其實我們是有很多的不確定性的那從我們學生自治的角度來看的話就是在全台灣的這個大學的自治就是學生會的投票等等的話只要有用到所謂的拉長投票時間或"},{"start":3075.925,"end":3091.022,"text":"所謂的通訊投票或其他任何不是當場一對一就是紙本這種投票的方式都有非常高度的爭議性要嘛就是選票會弄丟要嘛就是電子系統會出問題等等就算是大家這個最引以為傲"},{"start":3092.363,"end":3113.65,"text":"我們像台大就是全台灣最頂尖學府這個投票用電子或是用通訊投票等等每次都有一大堆的這個爭議性的問題所以在這個信任程度在這個執行面上面我覺得是必須要很小心的那在這個執行層面方面剛才謝老師還有其實很多的學者們都有提到一件事情就是說"},{"start":3114.33,"end":3139.24,"text":"我們不能夠讓選務單位增加太多的麻煩那可是我們可以看到在不在籍投票方面不管是我們現在的投票每一次投票都有很多種類的選舉那這個很多種類的選舉那可能如果你要除了你自己那個區的這個票軌之外那還要增加非常非常多不同的票軌就算你是移轉到這個其他的這一個就是你要盡量的這個集中"},{"start":3140.815,"end":3154.532,"text":"就算是你要盡量的把這個人集中在某幾個這個投票區來講好了我們想想看比如說以這個村里長來說的話全台灣有7000快8000個村里長有一種可能性是這樣我們總共有1萬"},{"start":3155.933,"end":3173.362,"text":"8000個左右的投開票所然後要投這個7800個里左右那有沒有這種可能是比如說我現在住在比如說以我們東吳大學士林區福林里我在士林區福林里投票然後我但是我個人的這個戶籍是在新竹有沒有可能在整個士林區福林里就只有我一個人投那個地方的村里長"},{"start":3174.759,"end":3198.301,"text":"這是絕對有可能的因為總共有七千八百個村裡對不對如果說我們要做這件事情的時候這個一定會有可能是我在這個地方投票我在我居住地的地方投票可是我戶籍不是在我居住地那有沒有可能這一整個區就只有我一個人投了那一種類的票所以到時候開票的時候假設我們沒有要移轉這個選票的話那到時候這個士林區府林裡開出來新竹市東鄉區 東鄉裡"},{"start":3201.605,"end":3223.037,"text":"開出來這個票我投給了一號候選人那全台灣都知道我這一票是投給一號候選人所以這個在秘密投票的這個原則保障上面是會有非常大的這個問題的這是第一點如果說我們沒有要移轉這個投票的話那第二點就是說如果說我們要移轉投票的話那問題更多了如果我們要把這個比如說我們要把這個票啊比如說移轉回新竹市東鄉里這個地方的話"},{"start":3223.777,"end":3243.774,"text":"那全台灣有多少個這個選票需要移轉那這個東西的這個執行起來會非常非常的困難而且那如果中間掉了怎麼辦如果中間出車禍怎麼辦還有就是假設不管是移轉到哪裡假設我們今天有移轉到比如說台北市集中在某一個地方在移轉方面會有很大的這個問題存在那第三個就是"},{"start":3246.843,"end":3269.498,"text":"我們如果說在現在這個狀況我們現在是一票一票唱出來其實我們在每次投票的時候都可以看到全世界有非常多的記者學者專家都過來去拍我們台灣的那個投開票唱票然後你可以看到網路上就是一片全世界都認為這個就是最好的方式而且重點是我們台灣的投開票4點結束通常7、8點就可以把全台灣的這個結果都統計出來"},{"start":3270.399,"end":3291.912,"text":"那如果說以後要急轉投票的話那這個就是好我今天40區福林里我投下這票之後要轉回新竹那如果說我今天投屏東呢是不是要轉回屏東那這個東西那我們那我們的這個多出來的開票時間怎麼辦我們多出來開票時間怎麼辦那這個東西就會有很大的這個問題那如果說我們今天現在是一票一票"},{"start":3292.612,"end":3315.538,"text":"一票一票的投一票一票的唱出來的這種狀況都會有人去質疑說這個選票選務可能不公平那更不用講說我們還要把它封裝還要這樣移轉還要這個問題那是不是會有更多人去質疑這個選務會不公平所以我也很擔心就是說在我們現在這個狀況之下連那種就是全世界都認可的這種一票一票唱票的這個制度都會有人去質疑了"},{"start":3316.28,"end":3332.889,"text":"那更不用說如果我們接下來要開這個村裡這個鄉鎮市民代表這個市議員縣議員等等就是你有這麼多這麼多的選票你要去做移轉的時候會不會出問題那這個東西才是真正的增加了這個選務的這個工作非常多的這個複雜性"},{"start":3333.929,"end":3360.303,"text":"跟這個不可預測性所以我覺得在真正處理好這些在討論好這些事情之前呢我覺得比較好的對岸就是現在我們要討論這個對岸就是前一天放假因為我相信各位都同意說就是我們要讓投票越方便越好要讓大家越沒有掛礙越好那這個放假就是前一天多放一天假這個其實就是一個我覺得相對好的對岸就是說如果說我們擔心大家因為各種工作啊或是"},{"start":3360.603,"end":3379.404,"text":"就是移動的困難或者是這個要請假紅的成本太高的話那我們應該要讓大家有一個更充裕的時間去做移動這件事情所以我覺得作為一個對岸來講的話我覺得讓大家前一天多放假讓大家這個不用擔心就是星期六的這一個比如說你來不及"},{"start":3380.086,"end":3403.553,"text":"前一天必須要工作到很晚這種事情的話我覺得這樣讓大家有一個更好的就是你自己人為移動的這種方式會是相對比這個所謂全面的開放這個不在理投票的這種方式是好很多的因為它不會動到我們現有的所有的這個投票制度所以我認為我們現在在這個真正解決這個執行層面的這種複雜問題之前不遺貌然的全面開放這個不在理投票謝謝"},{"start":3411.383,"end":3416.329,"text":"好 我們謝謝陳芳瑜教授我們接下來請張玉萌理事長"},{"start":3436.234,"end":3460.074,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有今天與會的專家學者大家早安我是今年世代共好協會的理事長張玉萌那我過去在大學的期間所在的學校就是剛剛芳瑜老師所提到的國立台灣大學那當時也參與國立台灣大學的這個學生自治的選舉那事實上其實台大的選舉是非常進步的"},{"start":3460.374,"end":3475.514,"text":"也就是透过不论是移转的投票或者是透过线上的投票系统但是我大学在学的四年间每个学期其实都会有不同类型的投票包含学生议员的代表包含比如说学生会长等等的选举"},{"start":3475.894,"end":3496.12,"text":"甚至是多合一的系學會或者是系上的代表等等的都參與這樣的線上投票的系統但是我在學的四年之間基本上有一半的時間以上投票的內容都會出現嚴重的瑕疵或者是系統的故障那這樣的故障往往就會導致在當天或者是在這一次的選舉裡面"},{"start":3499.901,"end":3519.187,"text":"就產生非常大的爭議那故障的內容千奇百怪包含譬如說當天的系統故障 當掉就導致全校都沒有辦法進行投票或者是當天有幾分鐘這個系統是沒有辦法登入使用的那這件事就會導致在那節下課也許我本來就安排去投票的時間"},{"start":3519.907,"end":3539.788,"text":"我就得要另外安排去投票往往有時候趕不上投票的時間這也導致我思考非常多關於線上投票或者是不在籍投票如果在我國的大型投票發生這樣的問題其實會嚴重的影響學生對於或者是青年對於投票的不信任這是我所想到最直接的問題在"},{"start":3542.95,"end":3564.463,"text":"2018年的選舉開始也就是我們協會開始投入公共事務我們就開始思考希望可以降低年輕人的投票成本所以當時我們發起一個行動叫做青年民主返鄉列車那透過這樣的行動透過線上的募資來讓年輕人可以用比較低廉的價格讓他們可以回到戶籍地去投下神聖的一票"},{"start":3565.123,"end":3593.371,"text":"我跟大家稍微分享一下這樣的成果在2018年我們地方選舉跟10項的不同公投案總共有2000多人搭乘這樣的列車投票那當然有很多年輕人他也許不需要這樣的服務所以他自行返鄉投票那2020年的大選實際的參與人數也的確比較高有3500人是透過這樣的系統來回家投票那當時其實就有很多年輕人分享這樣的回家投票的經驗包含我一個這個社工系的同學他其實也搭乘我們的返鄉列車"},{"start":3594.191,"end":3621.833,"text":"他是來自花蓮風冰港口部落的同學那當時他其實分享說透過現在的投票系統他要回到部落投票如果在當天要返鄉投票他必須一定要在當天的中午就一定要搭上火車不然的話他因為搭上火車還要返回部落他如果透過客運然後再不斷轉程他是絕對沒有辦法在當天投票的這個截止之前返回到部落這代表意味著他基本上得要前一天就出發"},{"start":3622.754,"end":3648.553,"text":"那其他的同學其實也常反映的是我們現在的投票設計以總統大選來說大概都是1月中左右來投票那這個其實跟現在大學的期中考對不起期末考或者期末報告結束的時間學期結束的時間是高度重疊的那很多同學他也許是在期末考的時間回家投票那尤其跟這個過年的時間其實高度接近所以很多的同學他也許會因為這樣的需求所以他等到因為他可能經濟這個成本比較高"},{"start":3651.335,"end":3666.227,"text":"所以他等到過年的時候才回家如果他只能選擇一個時間來回家的話這件事其實促成我們很多的想法我們的想法就是其實如果有一天我們是不需要透過這樣的返鄉專車不需要透過我們的服務來完成投票這件事情"},{"start":3666.727,"end":3684.184,"text":"其實才應該是真正降低青年的投票成本那我們今天在討論這個回到戶籍地投票其實我認為本身就應該要被檢討我們的戶籍法其實就已經規定如果你簽出戶籍有這樣的事實三個月之內你就必須要做這個戶籍的移轉你就必須要簽戶籍"},{"start":3685.345,"end":3700.583,"text":"那過去其實大部分的大學都不開放這件事情那所以這件事情在上一個屆次的期間第十屆立法院其實我們當時也不斷的跟教育部希望進行索資跟溝通那當時其實教育部給我們的一個內容我不知道這幾年有沒有改變但是當時教育部給的"},{"start":3701.384,"end":3729.433,"text":"這個大學宿舍簽戶籍最高比例的是在金門大學這應該也符合大家的認知因為金門大學很多同學因為這個機票的需求所以簽戶籍那第二這個需求的應該是捧科大因為都是在離島的大學那其實就算我就讀台灣大學如果我是居住在台北我居住在大學宿舍我為什麼要去投台南的市長呢或者是我為什麼要去投台中的議員呢雖然那是我的出身地也往往是我的戶籍地但是"},{"start":3730.313,"end":3754.634,"text":"這件事情其實跟民主的精神是有很大的落差的因為我長期不居住在這樣的城市那當然全國性的大選也許沒差可是地方的選舉其實這個就嚴重的違反人籍合一的這樣的精神所以過去其實就這樣的人口比例來說台灣大概有1900萬左右的這個投票人口那四分之一左右其實是廣義的青年那就會有這樣的問題發生也就是他"},{"start":3756.335,"end":3770.191,"text":"因為工作或者是就學的需求他其實是離開他的戶籍地的但是他投票往往是投他戶籍地的這樣的民意代表或者是縣市長那這就導致他的投票成本不但高也造成他投的其實並不是他本身居住的這個情境的問題所以"},{"start":3773.094,"end":3789.154,"text":"這過去的確在現在這個戶籍法沒有落實的情況下我也承認這是一個應該要解決的問題但是我過去也不斷地在思考說如果在台灣這樣的我們當天就投票並且開票的情境下如果就貿然地實施沒有經過討論的不在籍投票"},{"start":3791.457,"end":3807.623,"text":"秘密投票的原則其實的確會出現一些問題秘密投票的意思剛剛老師也稍微說明他並不是說在投票的當下沒有人看到你投什麼這個就叫秘密投票如果在最後就投票開票之後我們是可以透過結果來反推這個"},{"start":3808.883,"end":3828.486,"text":"不同當地投票所的投票人的意向這個也是一個對秘密投票的破壞所以它是一個可推論性並不是當下的目睹你怎麼投票所以這件事情其實的確在小選區就容易發生包含離島 譬如說馬祖其實高度就有這樣的問題因為它人口的確比較少"},{"start":3828.806,"end":3838.554,"text":"或者是我們過去處理的就是原住民住在這個戶籍地投票的問題那的確這樣會產生這樣的問題但如果全國我們都來實施這樣的不在籍投票或者是一轉投票也可能會產生這樣的問題因為在這個投票所裡面如果我一轉到這邊只有我一個人是屬於譬如說這個花蓮這個某一個鄉鎮市的這個同學或者是這個年輕人的確我們可能就可以來反推"},{"start":3854.968,"end":3874.587,"text":"這個同學他的投票是什麼那第二個就是如果有一個這個候選人或者是某一個團體他有心要進行這樣的計票也就是我想要透過推論來確認在這個地方的人是不是有這個投下我這一票的話我是不是可以把它動員到其他投票所不論是透過事前登記或者是用什麼樣的方式移轉投票"},{"start":3874.947,"end":3892.265,"text":"的確就會造成這樣的問題那第三個其實也很直觀的就是如果在現在的選務量能之下我們並不是透過全國性的投票譬如說總統大選投票或者是全國性公投的投票這個當然比較沒有問題但是如果是地方縣市首長因為他有22縣市甚至在議員或鄉鎮市民代表的"},{"start":3893.907,"end":3905.997,"text":"這個投票樣態非常多種那移轉投票之後的確對於選務量能造成衝擊最直接的就是如果我們在計票的這個過程中都沒有產生任何的閃失譬如說我們運送選票也沒有什麼閃失沒有產生任何問題但是在最後這個計票並沒有如現在我們在當天計完票這其實是台灣的民主的一個奇蹟也是我們過去說這個樂見的在當天我們就計完票開完票並且"},{"start":3921.071,"end":3937.921,"text":"確認這個投票成果那是否會嚴重的衝擊對於今年這個對於民主所過去建立長期以來的信任因此我們認為在現在的制度之下透過民主價的設計比較能夠達成我們現在這個青年投票門檻的降低謝謝好 謝謝曾理事長那我們接下來請鍾嘉斌幹事長"},{"start":3955.049,"end":3977.166,"text":"今天我的標題就是消除投票障礙促進公民參與健全選舉制度確保社會信任今天公聽會要幹嘛呢公聽會是要找出問題還是要找出解方沒錯 兩者都要因為我們有層出不窮的問題但永遠沒有單一有效的解方我們來看一個大家思考一下台灣有多少人可以投票"},{"start":3978.223,"end":4007.911,"text":"台灣在2024年有將近1950萬個合格選民大概有當年超過1300人投票接下來今年的選舉我們查4年前來對照我們有多少的候選人我們有加起來有11023個當選名額 應選名額那其他的我就不談了 我們來談單單是我們的鄉鎮市民代表就有超過2100人我們的基層的村里長有7700多人"},{"start":4009.486,"end":4037.305,"text":"這些人的權利跟每個選民息息相關好那我們來談那今天為什麼會有一個這個投票的促進法呢它是要針對什麼問題呢針對我們看下一張就是這個問題啦因為根據過往的統計20到30歲之間的青年投票率一直擺盪有時候很低有時候還蠻高的那主要呢叫一般的選民中年選民平均低了5到10%"},{"start":4039.031,"end":4058.902,"text":"所以現在大家在關注什麼問題年輕的選民是不是他有一些投票障礙我們怎麼樣讓他更能夠參與因為這些人畢竟都是未來國家的新生力量所以今天的問題焦點是什麼怎麼去促進特定投票率偏低的選民讓他們可以去投票不只是只有青年"},{"start":4059.844,"end":4076.281,"text":"那有人提出了什麼 不再急投票有人提出了 欸 多放一天假哪一個解放比較早啊大家想想看 我們往下看其實呢 我們台灣的選舉制度剛剛已經有代表說了 學者說了現在很多"},{"start":4077.322,"end":4094.358,"text":"進步的技術我們都回歸到最簡單有效的方法就是紙本投票我先舉個例 台灣的紙本投票多厲害亞利桑那的登記選民只有260萬台灣是多了他10倍但是我們可以在6個小時內清點紙本投票"},{"start":4095.9,"end":4122.467,"text":"連馬斯克也說台灣的開票很厲害我們台灣的投票選舉公平透明而且長期的累積的信任還有公開唱票你去哪個國家的選舉可以看到這個制度這是台灣很珍貴的資產跟台灣的健保一樣寶貴啊是怎麼形成的超過半個世紀我們再往下看當時一開始投票這個事情政府怎麼去保障就是投票當天大家有價可以去投嘛"},{"start":4123.14,"end":4149.86,"text":"所以大家有沒有發現一開始要讓公民去投票政府想出來的 社會想出來的第一方法就是放假嘛就這麼簡單嘛但是放假有解決所有的問題嗎 沒有有哪些人沒有辦法去投票 我們先看一下這是基本人權喔但是有可能做生意的人有可能有一些備戰任務的人有可能一些24小時必須備勤的警校啊 救護人員 醫院的這些人這些人有辦法放到假嗎顯然沒有辦法"},{"start":4152.304,"end":4171.39,"text":"所以放假不能解決所有的問題好 那開始有人去思考說那如果有放假不能解決問題的時候那我們用什麼方法來解決他們問題所以往往是要解決一個問題又跑出了其他的問題所以就像說你有時候要解決一個病症頭痛 我吃個普拿疼"},{"start":4172.601,"end":4186.361,"text":"這次頭痛比較嚴重吃兩顆普拿疼有人說不對你不是上次吃普拿疼有效你就吃兩顆你應該去給醫生看搞不好要打客流感沒有錯同樣的問題我要繼續去解決我可以沿用原來的解方給它強化"},{"start":4187.603,"end":4207.977,"text":"我也可以另批蹊徑遭受其他的解方所以現在有兩個解方一個是既然當時為了讓人民去投票就規定一定要給勞工假一天那現在給兩天有沒有更有效又或者說那我們改成不在籍投票有沒有比較有效往下看所以這次的投票我們的這個法案設計提前放假我們了解選舉不是投票那一剎那的行為"},{"start":4212.779,"end":4234.264,"text":"大家以為只要票投進去那一剎那 讓他可以投進去了可以表達了 就完成了選舉嗎 不對你經常買車 甚至買個手機 要不要考量預算要不要去貨比三家 上網上去搜尋 衡量你的需求比較哪些功能符合你的滿足選舉啊 是選民在挑什麼 挑候選人不是投票那一刻才決定啊 參與"},{"start":4236.809,"end":4263.305,"text":"我們只顧及到投票那一刻的便利忽略到在投票前一刻一刻之前的討論了解這都很重要所以相較於不在籍投票那一剎那提供的便利跟多提供一天的假期讓選民有機會好好的去思考我要投給誰誰才是我合適的人這就是重點再往下看所以呢這次民主投票的促進強化民主投票促進法裡面呢"},{"start":4263.991,"end":4290.101,"text":"他就做了這些 譬如說有沒有在這次去年的發生了一些干擾選舉的方式有啊 密錄器啊 看看你們罷免的人有沒有誰去投罷免票啊是不是 以前只是不能窺視 刺探投票隱私現在選民有沒有去投開票所都變成是一些干擾選舉的行為了那這要不要防範 防範的方式有幾種啊一個是在原來選辦法加強啊 在刑法加強啊你也可以另訂刑法加強啊 我強調"},{"start":4292.332,"end":4314.059,"text":"一個問題 複雜的問題沒有單一的解方 大家可以考慮所以今天公聽會就要考慮各種可能再往下看我們看一看有沒有人真的真的去了解這個選務流程 我幫大家複習一下在場有選務官員 有很多學者專家你們看一看你們知道一個選舉有多複雜嗎首先你要先決定什麼 投開票手的位置然後你要臨派選務人員"},{"start":4315.598,"end":4341.847,"text":"照冊公告要公告什麼這個區域的選舉人名冊然後你要接收選票那當天你要來投票人要確認他的戶籍查驗他的身份正確的領給他選票投票只是一個動作之後還有開櫃取票檢票唱票計票統計包裝會診要保存證據才能宣布當選台灣有多厲害這一連串的事情提前一個多月前作業"},{"start":4342.611,"end":4360.849,"text":"在當天四點截止投票 晚上八點前又開出票來這是台灣奇蹟 世界奇蹟可是這個有多複雜你知道嗎 往下看投開票所 第一個你以為很簡單嗎 台灣有投開票所有將近一萬九千個投開票所"},{"start":4362.242,"end":4373.645,"text":"那我們看107跟109比較那時候平均每個投開票數大概1300到1500人到了109年降到1200人減300人要增加多少增加到1000多個投開票數"},{"start":4374.741,"end":4402.874,"text":"投開票所的規模很重要嗎當然重要啊你不能距離選民太遠啊到開車40分鐘才能到在原鄉的地方可以嗎所以你看原鄉的選投開票所啊投票是很辛苦的不亞於你從台北坐高鐵回屏東投票啊所以呢投開票所人數過多會影響到什麼開票的速度明顯在哪裡台北市投票所的人數如果過多開票就很頭痛往下看所以不在一起投票哪些問題呢第一"},{"start":4403.484,"end":4424.183,"text":"如果你要選擇不再去投票你要讓將近兩千萬個合格公民去告訴選務機關我打算在哪裡投啊這就是一個浩大的工程欸你要問將近一千九百五十萬的合格選民你打算在哪裡投票我有多少投票讓你選我有一萬九千個投票讓你選一萬九千個讓你選讓一千九百五十萬人選"},{"start":4426.171,"end":4451.127,"text":"100個人選一個投開票的比例這個作業有多大 有沒有想過再往下看如果不管這個決定了 候選人怎麼知道我的選民在哪裡我的選民 我是侃體鄉的鄉長 我要選鄉長侃體鄉投票公民數才1萬人有多少外地人口 他選在哪裡投票我去哪裡跟他拉票所以選舉人名冊的公告就是讓候選人知道說你的選民在哪裡"},{"start":4451.874,"end":4480.612,"text":"目前的看法目前的做法看起來在籍投票很笨但是至少戶籍明確我知道他不在家我就跟他爸爸媽媽說我來拜訪過了希望他投給我我們如果是不在籍投票我就看幾個組合這幾種排列組合如果在台北某個投票所有這麼多有屏東台南金門花蓮台中的選民去登記每一個選民的選票組合有多少大家想想看要不要再重複第一章我們有多少的鄉鎮市民代表"},{"start":4481.431,"end":4508.738,"text":"好 結果是什麼 往下看就是投票的選務混亂我曾經跟我們屏東的鄉長 鄉民代表說你算計 要現在平常是怎麼當選 怎麼當選鄉長的選票就一個鄉啊你四點截止投票他不到六點就知道自己可以宣布當選了現在不一樣啦因為那個鄉長他的鄉民很多在哪裡旅外啊 北漂啊"},{"start":4509.997,"end":4538.293,"text":"他們的票什麼時候開出來 晚上12點啊我要宣布當選 以前我只要6點就可以宣布當選了現在都要等啊 等到我那個鄉的鄉民有在不在一起投票的地方票都開出來了 都統計出來了 彙整回來潭嶺鄉公所 我們有縣選委會 有鄉的選委會他彙整這些票數 他才知道他有沒有當選你知道嗎 在我們那裡的村長跟里長啊常常差5票以內當選的啊"},{"start":4540.735,"end":4565.149,"text":"幾百票對幾百票嘛 大家有沒有想過這個問題大家想到選民要不再去投票他也很囉嗦啊 來往下看我如果去說我要再不再去投票第一這是不是我的確實意願 我要怎麼去選擇 我要本人去辦嗎如果有人可以冒名說 鍾亞斌我本來在我的戶籍所要調調有人把我冒名去登記在台北要怎麼查核 這個是不是事實的"},{"start":4566.414,"end":4573.757,"text":"那我是不是要先跑一趟我為了這個投票我要事先去本人去我想要投開票所那個地方的戶籍我本人我要在你這裡投票對選民有比較好嗎再來萬一我忘記了呢有些選民他可能就辦了上網如果越便利我上網選擇選擇完了之後就像我那個7-11啊我網購之後啊"},{"start":4587.458,"end":4613.159,"text":"全台灣有將近一萬六千個7-11隨便我選什麼時候送達有嗎 有沒有有沒有 電到電很多人很習慣網購 指定哪一個7-11去取你通常會指定你住的地方的附近嘛萬一哪天你出差 你在那邊取你忘記了你在哪裡登記了選舉投票當天 糟糕了我登記我在哪裡投票我可能今年換了地址 換了工作點耶這都很多的事情嘛"},{"start":4616.018,"end":4644.769,"text":"我會白跑一趟啊所以有可能我被人家冒名登記到別的投開票所我當天去我的戶籍所不能投有可能我忘了我登記在哪裡了我怎麼辦所以說一個制度的變革為什麼會有入境依賴因為你越熟悉的解方你越了解問題出在哪裡所以如果說我們說多放假一天來解決投票的問題大家都知道多放一天會什麼問題會有人跑出去玩嘛因為現在兩天就有人跑出去玩了嘛"},{"start":4645.803,"end":4668.322,"text":"這些問題都存在也都很好評估但是我換了新的解方你真的不曉得我去打了客流感會不會有併發症會不會有副作用所以有人選擇說那我吃一顆普拿疼不夠我再吃兩顆普拿疼我必須承認沒有辦法是完美的辦法因為有層出不窮的問題你沒想說一個解方就會跑出一些併發的後遺症我們總是在這些問題跟解方當中不斷的循環"},{"start":4673.584,"end":4697.655,"text":"所以今天這個法案它不是一個完美的解方但是它用我們熟悉的方法來解決我們已知的問題有沒有效可以試試看但是用我們未知的方法會跑出這麼多未知的問題我剛剛提出來的問題我們目前在倡議不在即投票的人有多少人想過因為大部分人都是選民我想的比選民多一點因為我曾經是候選人"},{"start":4698.277,"end":4711.58,"text":"所以我知道候選人在投票當天的心情候選人在平常去拜訪選民他需要的一些資訊當你做了不在籍投票之後這些事情都會產生變化將會影響到剛剛超過了一萬一千多個應選名額的當選人他們在當選之前可能有兩倍或三倍的候選人要面對同樣的困擾"},{"start":4723.112,"end":4742.161,"text":"所以我是建議當我們要解決一個問題的時候要思考一下用熟悉的方式還是用新的方式會不會碰觸新的問題還是我們要辦法應付既有的問題 以上好我們謝謝鍾委員那我們接下來請曲兆祥教授"},{"start":4773.01,"end":4798.178,"text":"主席在座的各位女士先生首先謝謝大院的邀請讓我關心了差不多三十年的議題今天能夠在大院能夠有一個公開的表達的機會嘉賓委員剛剛離開了我跟鍾嘉賓中委員在1996年我們一起當選第三屆的國民大會代表"},{"start":4801.799,"end":4814.966,"text":"那麼從那一年到現在算起來差不多接近30年了我個人推這個不在籍關心這個啦關心不在籍投票的這個議題大概關心了30年我立場從來沒有改變過"},{"start":4816.787,"end":4840.485,"text":"那麼基於 只是基於一個民主的信念因為我相信民主絕對不是只是選舉口號絕對不是選舉口號選舉它是一個制度選舉它是一個生活那麼所以那個時候我跟嘉賓委員我們一起在當國民大會代表的時候我記得我就曾經提案過當然不會成 我心裡很有數當然不會成"},{"start":4842.546,"end":4867.472,"text":"到現在為止30年之後不再去投票我們仍然在討論當中不過值得我稍微安慰一點就是30年的時間我們至少往前走了一小步因為現在國會至少用公聽的方式很認真的在討論這個問題我看社會上也有不少的公共論壇關切這一個議題這表示說這個議題比起30年前它已經往前"},{"start":4868.112,"end":4879.785,"text":"踏了一小步而已但是這一小步很重要就像Armstrong當年講的那一句話他個人的一小步是人類的一大步同樣的那一句話我到現在為止對"},{"start":4880.424,"end":4898.881,"text":"不再去投票仍然有一份的堅持因為我相信我剛剛講了民主的本身它是一個制度它是一個生活那麼它是基於很多的信念我有一個基本的信念就是政治權利是人生而應該待生而"},{"start":4900.151,"end":4924.441,"text":"应有的一种权利是与生俱来的我相信今天在座很多人是政治系出身的我相信不管是像我这样的老头子或者是像在座各位很多年轻刚刚离开大学之门不久的我相信你们都还记得老师们曾经引用过洛克或者是卢梭的话人生而自由却实实是在捆绑当中"},{"start":4927.643,"end":4947.889,"text":"從自然法的觀點來講人的生命 人的財產 人的自由是不能夠被剝奪的1966年聯合國通過了公民與政治權利的公約也就是一般我們講的兩公約而且很驕傲的說中華民國在1967年就已經同意要就已經同意成為締約國 只是說"},{"start":4952.492,"end":4973.859,"text":"我們因為後面的聯合國的席位的關係我們後來真正成為締約國是已經到了21世紀以後的事情但是我們是締約國 對不對它有一個最基本的一個價值就是我們承認政治權利是一個人的基本政治權利各位 只要是基本政治權利"},{"start":4974.258,"end":5001.979,"text":"他就不能夠任意被剝奪不管他是基於什麼因素所以我今天主張的不再去投票還包括著沒有被判刑沒有被確定為褫奪公權的人他都應該擁有投票權當然我也必須承認一個現實人有的時候理想跟現實之間他會有一點點距離因此他可能會受到現實制度的一些約制也就是限制這就是魯碩講的"},{"start":5003.81,"end":5021.387,"text":"卻人生而自由卻是在處處都在捆綁當中這個捆綁就是一種限制可是這個限制在座一定也有法律系出身的捆綁跟限制是不是一定要符合比例的原則是的"},{"start":5023.254,"end":5048.245,"text":"不再進行投票如果我們現在改革進行不再進行投票它是會有很帶來一些新的問題這個我覺得我從來不會否認就像剛剛鍾嘉賓中委員講的這個吃流感的藥物可以吃流感會帶來其他的問題不只是流感的藥我們全戰時間政府到今天為止還叫我們拼命去叫我們打了我個人打了5劑COVID-19大家都嚇死了有沒有"},{"start":5054.895,"end":5068.132,"text":"然後現在打 現在打完以後大家要告訴那個打多了很危險所以政府現在還在拼命推說請大家要去打那個抗這個COVID-19的病毒的藥有沒有 有沒有風險當然有"},{"start":5071.107,"end":5088.082,"text":"可是各位記得嗎那一年我們國內連沒有疫苗的時候連AZ日本人不打的AZ送到台灣來我們都視為治保各位還記得嗎就在幾年前的事情還有人用特權去打那個針各位都還記得吧"},{"start":5090.694,"end":5120.334,"text":"有沒有風險有風險有沒有副作用有副作用有沒有問題當然有問題可是這是不是表示說他就可以不做因為政治權利人生而自由人生而就應該擁有政治權利可是因為在執行過程當中會有很多的問題所以我們就剝奪他所以我們就把那些犯人沒有被判刑的此多公權的人關在牢裡面的不准投票基於國家安全的理由有一些跟國家安全相關的人員不准投票"},{"start":5123.316,"end":5144.269,"text":"當然他不是法律上說的不準他是用行政限制各位我再講一遍必要的限制這是我們講的necessary evil那個是可以被理解的但是他要按照比例原則要想盡辦法把它縮到最小最小不是嗎"},{"start":5145.768,"end":5174.653,"text":"所以我剛才聽了很多尤其特別是我們年輕學者這個我看得很高興我們政治學界一直有年輕化的動力還蠻大的但是很多都談到非常細節的問題談到很多技術性的問題各位相信中華民國的公務員我自己做過四年我在台北市政府跟常任的公務員們合作過四年的時間我太了解台灣公務員就像剛才鍾嘉斌總委員講的一點都不錯"},{"start":5177.39,"end":5202.712,"text":"我就講2018年那一年有石巷公投跟這個縣市長一起投票好像是2018年沒有錯應該沒有錯那一年投票投到開票開到半夜各位還記得吧各位你們知道嗎第二天以後第二天是禮拜天禮拜一恢復上班以後我們很多公務員那一天累到起不來上不了班很多人心裡還有一些狀況我們還要協助"},{"start":5205.48,"end":5217.225,"text":"人事部門去做一些心理輔導的工作可是中華民國的公務員完成了這樣子的挑戰所以請各位相信中華民國的公務員你只要不要把政治的手"},{"start":5218.544,"end":5236.805,"text":"深入到他正常的行政程序裡面去他會克服那些難題那些技術性的問題是可以被克服的而且我最後我還要再講一個不在即投票不等於完全等於電子投票當然電子投票可以"},{"start":5237.345,"end":5264.702,"text":"成為不在一起投票的一種方式可是這兩者之間沒有等號我知道我們到今天為止我們大概勉勉強強還可以接受一點點的其實就是還是用紙本只是用不在一起投票那這些很多技術性的問題我現在都不談我今天時間限制我都不談但是我可以告訴各位結論它都可以一項一項一項被克服它會不會浮現出來制度如果採用它會不會浮現出來會"},{"start":5266.667,"end":5289.612,"text":"但是它可不可以被解決可以 這就對了嘛好 主辦機關另外還設定了一些問題我用PPT的直接去回答了我再講 最後講一句話民族政治它是一種制度 它是一種生活它是一種基本價值選擇它甚至你可以說它是一個執念"},{"start":5290.792,"end":5306.121,"text":"這個我完全同意而且我也有這樣子的執念可是既然是執念它就必須要變成信念我們要堅持它去解決問題而不是因為問題而放棄我們的理念或者執念謝謝好 謝謝曲教授那我們接下來請賴宗強律師"},{"start":5322.789,"end":5324.97,"text":"主席各位先進我想我今天我就用這個簡報來向各位做說明基本上我想表達的觀點就是今天這個草案所提出的我姑且它稱為"},{"start":5347.048,"end":5375.494,"text":"故鄉民主價這樣的概念應該會遠優於全面不在籍投票那我這邊要對話的對象全面不在籍投票在目前的大院審理的議案中我指的是台灣民眾黨所提出的草案而不是前一陣子大家看到中國國民黨委員提案所通過的已經刪讀的"},{"start":5376.69,"end":5398.08,"text":"原住民中央選舉的不在籍投票因為那個我們已經刪除的原住民不在籍投票他只限原住民再來他只限於中央的選舉但是如果我們要接下來大院1月12號以後那個協商期滿要可以"},{"start":5402.335,"end":5429.937,"text":"可以二讀三讀的如果真的通過台灣民眾黨的全面不在籍投票的話那會是一個非常大的衝擊有多大的衝擊可能很多人都沒有想到那在這種情況下我會認為去推動與投票前一天多一放一天假同樣可以達到便利投票的結果那但是卻可以免除很多的風險那首先呢"},{"start":5432.524,"end":5454.218,"text":"大家看到這張照片這個是嘉義的中山路的圓環這個在嘉義的民主政治上是非常有意義的在地特色那我用這張照片想表達的就是說所謂的參與民主反鄉參與在地民主"},{"start":5455.66,"end":5471.517,"text":"才是關鍵參與民主不應該僅僅只是返鄉投票也不應該僅僅只是你把嘉義的選票移轉到台北市讓嘉義的遊子可以做不在籍投票就是"},{"start":5472.858,"end":5500.098,"text":"所謂參與在地民主真正的民主參與如果嘉義北漂的子弟能夠便利他參與的話就是選舉前放一天假讓他可以到嘉義園環去看去參與選舉的最後造勢然後去跟他的家人討論要投票給誰這樣才是真正的民主深化"},{"start":5501.69,"end":5516.805,"text":"那接下來我就來談說為什麼台灣民眾黨你如果不是用故鄉民主價然後要便利全國的南漂北漂的人都可以便利投票"},{"start":5517.808,"end":5544.329,"text":"全面的不在籍投票然後台灣民眾黨的版本是移轉投票的話他會發生什麼問題那首先我要說明的是那個我本身呢在2004年的時候那個時候連送提出當選無效之訴以及選舉無效之訴我是中選會的訴訟代理人那就我所參與的訴訟過程看到了一些選務來看"},{"start":5546.931,"end":5574.491,"text":"這樣的台灣民眾黨的不在籍投票全面實施移轉投票以後可能發生的問題跟各位做一個報告第一個我想說的是所有的制度第一次實施都容易出錯所以不在籍投票最好我們如果希望它真的能夠推動的話應該要循序漸進目前已經開了一個口"},{"start":5575.051,"end":5599.568,"text":"就從原住民的中央選舉開始我覺得這是好事但是你如果很快的你要跳成台灣民眾黨的全面不在籍投票的話那會出什麼事各位看到左邊這個照片是我國歷史上的第一次的公投那當年呢2004年的時候也是公投榜大選"},{"start":5600.689,"end":5626.516,"text":"那當時發生了什麼問題呢我們跳到右邊來看這個是我所受理的訴訟裡面呢當時聯送的訴訟代理人他就說啊全國有一萬七千兩百九十二張幽靈票幽靈票是什麼意思他說開出來的票比選舉人名冊簽名蓋章的領票數還多出一萬七千多張天啊"},{"start":5627.902,"end":5649.822,"text":"這多恐怖的事啊那天那次選舉最後最後那個兩個候選的差距是非常少的那他又主張幽靈票又主張遺失票那這樣不就是全部加起來就大於連送跟這個扁呂的差距數了嗎結果法院調查的結果是怎樣"},{"start":5650.984,"end":5659.536,"text":"因為他是第一次實施同時有公投的選舉人名冊又有總統的選舉人名冊那選務人員把他弄反了"},{"start":5660.545,"end":5687.17,"text":"有全部弄反的也有一半弄反的所以為了處理這個問題後來我打這個官司我們就設了很多二元一次方程式然後把他的公投的領票投票總統的領票投票全部一起算最後法院開宴的結果確實是一回事這麼一回事他是因為選舉人名冊弄錯了你同時進行總統選舉跟公投選舉"},{"start":5690.807,"end":5714.462,"text":"後來這種事情到第二年第三年第二次第三次即使是公投跟總統一起選舉這種情況因為有了前車之鑒大家就知道怎麼改進那同樣的道理如果我們這個台灣民眾黨的版本要這樣通過2026年就要實施全面不在籍投票那個情況會有多複雜大家來看一下"},{"start":5716.274,"end":5740.235,"text":"第一個是選票運送跟選票外流的風險大家看到左邊這張是中國國民黨中央黨部發的他是在指出說這個嘉義在2018年選舉的時候有333張選票流出這選票外流那這就會是一個很大的這個選舉影響選舉公信力的紛爭"},{"start":5741.696,"end":5769.843,"text":"那為什麼會有選票流出是不是有人要作票那中共國民黨就提出這樣的指控那最後這個發現是不是這麼回事那檢察官也做了不起訴處分但是這個就對選舉的公信力造成了衝擊那為了這樣嘉義市在點選票的時候他要每一個人收聲確保選票不外流那各位想想看如果我們連"},{"start":5772.304,"end":5787.697,"text":"正常的沒有不在籍投票這個選票的點選要這麼謹慎都要到收生了那如果我們還有移轉投票移轉投票可能怎麼移轉你不要說一萬多個投票所對一萬多個投票所"},{"start":5788.277,"end":5808.256,"text":"你把它限縮成範圍22縣市對22縣市你要把22縣市的選票送到其他21個縣市總共有22乘以21等於462個運送路線你怎麼確保這中間選票不外流再來"},{"start":5810.475,"end":5834.342,"text":"我們統計一下如果2026就要這樣全面不再集投票移轉投票的話那是九合一大選總共有九種選票嗎不是 不是九種選票直轄市縣市總共有22種選票鄉鎮市長198種選票直轄市原住民區長6種選票村里長抱歉這個數字是歷史村里數16281個歷史村里"},{"start":5837.763,"end":5866.525,"text":"現在的有效村裡7000多個直轄市議員總共有79個選區縣市議員總共有135個選區鄉鎮市民代表抱歉我沒有數因為我來不及數就是198個鄉鎮市乘以N然後直轄市原住民區代表就有16個選區那這麼多的選票你要怎麼運送你怎麼確保這個過程不會出錯然後再來"},{"start":5868.101,"end":5891.721,"text":"還不只是選票的運送而已你要計票的時候所有的選務人員都知道他們有一個數字的鐵律這個鐵律不能錯就是這上面各位看到的這個數字也就是有效票數加無效票數再加已領未投票數加上用於票數必須等於原領票數也就是選舉人數"},{"start":5894.52,"end":5916.507,"text":"對選務人員最後開票以後這個就是有點像會計人員你的帳要平你的那個帳要平如果帳不平的話你要找出原因那我開一個沒有不在籍投票的九合一選舉我是九個帳要平九種選舉我開九種選票九個帳要平到時候"},{"start":5922.403,"end":5939.389,"text":"到時候如果有全面不再集投票 移轉投票八九千種選票一起選每個投開票所你有八九千個帳要平你看這個公式你到時候要算多久然後再來"},{"start":5940.515,"end":5965.632,"text":"冒名申請跟妨害投票這是一個非常嚴重的問題我們注意到台灣民眾黨的不在籍投票的草案它關於怎麼申請不在籍投票它是說你在投票60日前按照主管機關要求的格式申請然後在60日前送達戶籍地的直轄市縣市委員會也就是說它是書面申請"},{"start":5966.733,"end":5991.641,"text":"用寄信的送達不要求本人拿出身份證去戶政事務所核對本人確實是你本人來申請那問題就來了我們隨便冒名倒刻一個比如說不好意思主席張宏祿的移轉投票申請我刻一個張某某的張蓋上去"},{"start":5993.82,"end":6003.878,"text":"我知道他的戶籍地址要申請移轉投票到時候我們的主席發現說我要去投票的時候我怎麼不能投票我的票被移轉走了這樣的"},{"start":6006.555,"end":6026.422,"text":"會衍生很多投票當日的糾紛而且在競爭對手的優勢選區這個確實會造成有心人來降低對手得票數的妨礙選舉的不當選舉手段這種事情有沒有其實已經有現實上的做法是"},{"start":6028.973,"end":6051.966,"text":"台灣曾經有一些會選它的會選方式不是我向你買票你投票給我而是我到敵對陣營的優勢選區去買票我買票說你的身份證我先幫你保管你不要投票等到投票截止時間了以後我再把身份證還給你到時候不用買票了"},{"start":6054.1,"end":6073.379,"text":"對手的優勢選區去做大量的冒名移轉投票所以最後要說的是其實我看到螢幕前的提案中國國民黨的全面不再急投票並沒有排上禁覆二讀的議程"},{"start":6075.322,"end":6091.839,"text":"那反而走到最前面的是台灣民眾黨我不曉得為什麼是不是民眾黨真的這麼勇敢的要來搶當這個白老鼠要在那個2026年的九合一大選讓接近九千種選票"},{"start":6094.761,"end":6113.278,"text":"9000種選票可以在全台灣各地來申請不在籍移轉投票我覺得還是中國國民黨的原住民立委那個主張比較穩健比較漸進一點我們先從原住民的中央層級的"},{"start":6115.595,"end":6134.444,"text":"移轉投票從這個地方來慢慢摸索那發現制度有什麼問題檢討問題再穩健的走出下一步謝謝好謝謝賴律師我們接下來請仇桂美教授蔣桂美教授主席在座各位先進大家好"},{"start":6145.356,"end":6162.864,"text":"我活到這把年紀好像現在很少有人念錯了所以我們還是要多交流這個剛才還有一件事可能要確認一下我們發言時間到底是多久因為我發現前一位時間好像超過我的發言時間是多久每位8分鐘因為剛剛停止以後如果還沒講完我們會制度延長OK 好 謝謝大概幾個重點"},{"start":6175.287,"end":6199.937,"text":"我发现走这个imperial实证主义的人会非常强调过去发生的错误但是有些错误跟他的所谓的投票方式未必是直接因果关系很多的错误不管你用哪一种方式他都会有错误只是我们要相对评估哪一种错误他的可能性可以降到最低"},{"start":6200.615,"end":6207.945,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個我們一定要去思考不同的投票方式我們到底要進行什麼"},{"start":6209.266,"end":6230.482,"text":"可是我發現我們一直在負面思考這種方式錯誤很多那種方式風險很高另外一種方式這個可說不可做那到最後我們的這個所謂踐行民主政治的一個基本原則它的軸心到底是什麼我們今天所以要投票是要踐行一人一票每票等值"},{"start":6231.503,"end":6249.151,"text":"我們不犧牲任何一個人表意對政治上的機會所以我們希望把投票的這個機率能夠克服的這個最大的這個變數降到最低然後還給每一個人最基本的參政權我想這是一個核心的價值"},{"start":6250.034,"end":6272.834,"text":"那在這個價值之上我覺得回到每個人的投票權不管他是公投我們這個主辦單位很費心寫了三個議題不管他是選舉罷免 公投等等他都是一個投票行為只是他用什麼方式去表意而已所以我覺得一人一票 每票等值這個基本原理是我們一定要去掌握的"},{"start":6273.715,"end":6299.864,"text":"那我相信在過去所有的經驗裡面你會發現因為我在監察院辦過很多相關的案子時間非常有限我在書面裡面只提了一個只提了一個這個所謂的監察院調查報告109年的內調0078號那事實上我自己還調查過很多相關的案件譬如說2018的十五項公投這個綁大選"},{"start":6302.295,"end":6329.58,"text":"那時候的問題到底是什麼大部分人都會認為說因為公投綁大選所以之後就把它脫鉤了那現在又勾起來了但是真正的問題在哪裡真正的問題是它的投票動線它現場混亂那我們當然可以說那我們以後公投門檻拉高那實務上我們真的就變成這樣公投門檻拉得非常高所以現在公投案非常難成立"},{"start":6330.915,"end":6337.028,"text":"結果呢 你主辦單位你責任降低了 你錯誤變少了但是 你出現了反民主的行為"},{"start":6338.582,"end":6361.583,"text":"這是我們要的嗎 當然不是啊所以我們思考的問題必須很清楚所以第二個呢這個除了剛剛講的問題那如果回到實務譬如說我們在疫情期間很多司法體系裡面開始考慮說這個當事人可能不適合出庭他沒有辦法來他可能得了這個Omicron或什麼所以當時有考慮到遠距"},{"start":6366.13,"end":6390.35,"text":"後來有些地院小幅度的在某些項目上採用了一點點推行的顯然不好後來疫情也結束了不了了之然後我們的行政救濟法裡面剛才講的那個是訴訟開庭我們的行政程序法裡面我們約束政府機關的時候我們要求要書面"},{"start":6391.519,"end":6411.182,"text":"所以政府機關常常變得效率很差像我們在監察院有些重要的案子你等一天跟不等那差太多了你等一天單身根本就不見了那搞不好出境了所以你速度要快啊那所以呢我們常常用傳真當天下午就約他來他不來我們自己就過去了然後馬上補書面"},{"start":6412.743,"end":6428.211,"text":"所以很多的思維我覺得會是重點就我們一直停留在哪一種過去會出現什麼問題如果要舉問題我們的問題太多了這個我們我過去辦了一個查水表案我們俗稱叫查水表"},{"start":6429.454,"end":6453.42,"text":"那這個柴水表案裡面呢 它最主要適用的是什麼是社會秩序維護法 63條的一項無款所謂的什麼呢 所謂的散播謠言啊足以影響公共之安寧者後來我不查還好 我一查不得了我發現只要碰到選舉 選前的一兩個月那個案子馬上就飆上來了 一堆人被查"},{"start":6455.06,"end":6466.011,"text":"那選後呢 又開完票了 大家不關心了就選後幾乎都沒事啊那你到底在查什麼你查了半天都沒事欸選舉的時候標那麼高那這到底在幹嘛所以 這叫什麼 這叫寒蟬效應欸"},{"start":6471.556,"end":6487.456,"text":"所以我們的行政作為裡面我們要自己公權力想辦法克服各種可能出現的弊端而不是因為弊端道果為因去相對造成投票者選民的不方便"},{"start":6488.937,"end":6515.154,"text":"選民本來就有公權上的這個所謂的投票權我們應該想辦法讓他有一個非常方便的環境然後行政自我要去約束但是行政自我約束我覺得蠻困難的所以監督機制非常重要為什麼呢我們過去我就不談哪個機關了我記得總統府考試院這個個資都外洩過"},{"start":6517.051,"end":6545.468,"text":"有的個資外洩還是我在檢察院辦的當然外洩的原因後來都找出來了也都糾正那為什麼前車之鑒不能造成後事之事呢所以我們一直在負面思考我會認為那這個問題是無解的再三十年也是一樣本來就是AI時代到了我們今天在學校教書非常清楚你要跟學生你智慧一定要超過學生為什麼"},{"start":6546.584,"end":6554.629,"text":"那AI隨便一問報告就出來了他了不起再問一下有哪個相關著作那個著作又出來了他再問一下第幾頁又出來了那你老是要幹嘛"},{"start":6558.541,"end":6581.398,"text":"你老是要很清楚他的邏輯清不清楚他有沒有道果為因他的邏輯推演上到底有沒有可證性而不是一直在講說各種錯誤的發生造成我們不能做這個不能做那個我覺得這個思維是錯的所以其他的建築書面我書面上寫得很清楚如果以經費來看"},{"start":6583.803,"end":6608.216,"text":"大罷免也是投票啊大罷免花了多少錢十幾億啊照花面不改色那今天你全國性的公投公投有很多種嘛可能是投 我說的投票行為可能是公投 可能是選舉 可能是罷免如果以成本來看當然要考慮不在其他的成本的降低性"},{"start":6611.079,"end":6629.899,"text":"所以我覺得我們有非常多的 variable變相 字變相 音變相等等但是我們必須抽絲剝繭 因果清楚然後要克服種種的困難所以我還可以再多三分鐘嗎三分鐘做一個小節"},{"start":6634.164,"end":6659.921,"text":"那所以呢我談過在這個社委法呢過去的查水表案啊到選舉期間很多後來我們自己請來的國際人權專家評估我們的問題是什麼我們的問題根本不在這裡耶我們的問題在我們的很多法治的貫徹上它的這個透明性啊等等出了問題這個目前還在法務部的網站上掛著"},{"start":6661.681,"end":6683.839,"text":"所以我剛才看了速發部的報告看得非常失望因為他第一段是尊重大院我如果沒有記錯的話第二段好像沒什麼重點第三段好像切入重點了從頭到尾他只有那五行關鍵字他要幹嘛呢他要針對錯假訊息的管制那我覺得失望的原因是什麼"},{"start":6693.03,"end":6713.642,"text":"你針對錯假訊息管制的時候你是不是要讓表意的精神盡量去發展它是有橫平性的而你只看了管制這一方而你完全不提讓人民充分表意行使他的投票行為的這一塊你的見解是什麼所以"},{"start":6715.407,"end":6736.477,"text":"我覺得像這個人事總署或者是我如果沒記錯人事總署因為人事系統我待過很多老朋友但是我們針對的是事情人事總署提的報告裡面談到的也是尊重大院那當然也只能這樣寫可是我比較失望的是我們過去的譬如說軍警"},{"start":6738.058,"end":6758.99,"text":"公教這一類我們所謂的在這個我的書面的尾巴裡面呢有提到譬如說就算你特別投票所等等這一類我倒沒有特別贊成我的意思是說我們過去呢在2000年的總統大選的時候兩黨的總統候選人的差距不到三萬票"},{"start":6760.812,"end":6768.498,"text":"這麼近的差距還有一個非常關鍵的原因因為319槍擊案發生的當天管制的一堆人沒有辦法投票那如果我把這個焦點放大那我們為什麼一定要堅持老路呢很容易就剝削了一堆人他沒有辦法去投票"},{"start":6783.359,"end":6805.416,"text":"那請問一人一票每票等值的價值在哪裡所以希望大家能夠認真思考但最後一句話呢我覺得我參加的公聽會裡面這場是最和諧的為什麼呢因為大家心中都有淡淡的憂鬱因為對政府的治安系統實在不是太有信心那我們也希望政府能夠加油克服種種困難 謝謝"},{"start":6810.513,"end":6826.625,"text":"好 謝謝那我們繼續請黃澄漢研究員主席 各位委員 各位同仁 大家好我是經濟民主聯合智庫研究員我叫黃澄漢"},{"start":6827.645,"end":6848.344,"text":"那今天在討論這個不管是不在籍投票或是強化民主投票的這個促進法我首先想要先指出就是說國會目前在討論所謂的不在籍投票的時候它的立法意旨就是它核心的目的應該是在於這個提升公民的參與程度最直觀的指標就是提升投票率"},{"start":6849.085,"end":6868.97,"text":"那就這個目的而言我們首先要討論一件事情就是說縱觀世界上的國際經驗或是說國際在政治學上的學術的文獻各種形式的不在即投票是不是能達成這個效果在國際上是高度的歧異甚至在學術上是持反對的意見的結果比較多"},{"start":6869.75,"end":6893.543,"text":"那針對所謂的不在籍投票也就是所謂的便利投票這個形式有很多種我相信大家都已經非常清楚不用贅述那在這一次特別想要強調我們所稱的這個所謂的移轉投票這個制度對於投票率的影響然而即使是針對所有形式的便利投票的研究那比如說美國的選制中採取多種便利投票形式共存的制度"},{"start":6894.603,"end":6916.608,"text":"學者仍然沒有觀察到對於投票率有高度幫助的情況那比如說有一篇很重要的這個2008年的回顧性的文獻就顯示說這些措施它確實讓投票變得更方便這是沒有人會去質疑的但是它對投票率的提升效果是微乎其微at best a modest increase"},{"start":6917.068,"end":6934.779,"text":"更重要的是他們指出便利投票往往有助於的是那些已經會去投票的選民而不是擴大到參與擴大這個政治參與讓這社會經濟地位更低或是政治參與興趣更低的人來去投票所以這是所謂的便利投票的效果"},{"start":6935.259,"end":6960.197,"text":"那移轉投票也是一樣而移轉投票包含很多形式比如說所謂投票中心隨地投票甚至是實體提前投票都算是一種移轉投票的形式在這部分的經驗發現地點上的彈性確實會降低選民的投票成本這沒有人要質疑但是它會不會增加整體的投票率在學術研究上的發現還是很少甚至是覺得說沒有什麼幫助"},{"start":6961.278,"end":6976.343,"text":"所以就這個角度而言如果我們要討論的不在籍投票它的核心目的是在於提升大家的政治參與提升投票率的話我們要面臨一個非常誠實的問題是為了這項高度不可能達成立法目的"},{"start":6977.003,"end":6994.918,"text":"的改革我們要在行政上付出我們剛剛討論到的多少成本我們要在經濟上付出我們剛剛討論到的多少成本更嚴重的是在社會的信任上在政治的信任上我們要付出多少成本來達成這個目的那這是我們目前看不到的一個計算"},{"start":6996.28,"end":7023.672,"text":"那我想再強調一件事情是剛剛在討論的時候大家仍然在假設投票越便利必然等於參與度越高必然等於投票率越高這個假設我覺得是需要去討論的那比如說過去有人在討論這個便利投票的這些措施的改革的時候有些人發現這些便利投票措施越多事實上可能卻導致了這個投票率的降低為什麼會有這麼反直覺的"},{"start":7026.213,"end":7044.522,"text":"這種狀況出現那是因為這些學者提出一個假說他說傳統的選舉日大家一起聚在一起投票在前一天做政治的動員去做政治的討論它是一種重要的公民節日在選舉日的前幾天候選人會密切的在當地跟選民做互動"},{"start":7045.342,"end":7071.581,"text":"政黨會舉辦造勢活動讓選民來參與這種社會的動員的力道會讓人有投票的意願會讓他在投票的最後階段產生投票的意向也讓選民在參與這種集體政治活動的時候對於政治有正向的情感對於參與政治有更積極的表現促進了他們參與政治的可能但是並列投票的形式越多他可能會把這個選舉日"},{"start":7073.762,"end":7097.007,"text":"擴大到好幾週比如說開票的時間比如說移轉投票的時間那這會導致政黨和候選人在這個舉辦傳統的政治動員的活動的時候參與度變低導致政黨和候選人他可能更不願意去舉辦這種傳統的政治的活動更進而再導致公民暴露在這種政治氛圍的這種所謂政治節日的氣氛的"},{"start":7098.428,"end":7114.268,"text":"感受變低進而去導致選民在投票上的意願減少這是一個非常反直覺的討論但是他要去攻擊的就是我們剛剛一直都沒有討論的是投票越便利是不是就必然等於投票率越高的情形"},{"start":7115.16,"end":7140.897,"text":"所以我想要請大家再去思考說我們在立法的當初最重要的目的到底是什麼在說明完這樣子的這個便利投票研究之後我要轉而去討論說為什麼移轉投票或是各種形式的便利投票其實不一定適合在現在台灣的政治文化下採取那其實剛剛大家都討論到就是說過去台灣長期的有在選舉日舞弊的情形"},{"start":7141.457,"end":7161.372,"text":"那這些情況大多數發生在這個有限度的民主化的過程中但是在近年仍然持續有這種狀況可是我們公民因為選務機關的努力仍然對於選舉日的開票有相當程度的信心跟這個對於選舉結果的這個信任程度有相當的耐受"},{"start":7161.872,"end":7190.464,"text":"但這種耐受的程度它是非常非常容易被挑戰被破壞的因為我們的歷史一序讓我們對於這種選舉結果的這個破壞讓我們對於選舉的舞弊的質疑和陰謀論的忍受程度是非常低那過去原本想舉例子時間不夠過去三次選舉都有大規模的針對選舉結果的陰謀論那我想在座各位都非常清楚當時的政治狀況"},{"start":7191.764,"end":7215.275,"text":"再來就是說這種嚴重的選舉舞弊的政治的過敏還包含一件事情是台灣人民對於在選舉當天就獲知選舉的結果這件事情有高度的依賴在投完票之後去競選總部或是在家裡看開票在當天晚上馬上知道這次選舉的結果已經是台灣人民行使政治權利的慣習"},{"start":7216.696,"end":7244.859,"text":"那如果我們在現在要貿然的採取全面性的移轉投票的話如同剛剛已經有許多學者會提到的就是這個選舉開票的結果的週期可能會超過一天甚至如同像美國或是其他採取便利投票的先進國家可能要到一週才會知道選舉結果我認為這對於台灣選舉現在的激烈程度而言這幾天會成為有心人士破壞民主信任的窗口"},{"start":7245.62,"end":7261.153,"text":"那在台灣民主信任我覺得又要談到目前不適合貿然採取移轉投票的重要因素那就是這個對於買票而言像剛剛有提到的移轉投票會讓這件事情變得更簡單再來就是說境外勢力介入的問題"},{"start":7261.994,"end":7277.109,"text":"在過去我們就看到台氣連作為這個國台辦底下的這個半官方色彩的組織他已經在用所謂的優惠投票的方式來促使這個選舉結果的改變這是很明確的境外勢力介入的事實"},{"start":7277.87,"end":7301.878,"text":"那這個情況目前沒有 選務機關沒有 行政機關沒有任何方式可以去很好的解決這個問題如果有移轉投票的話台企聯不用花那麼多錢買到松山的機票 買到桃園的機票他只要用小三通請大家移轉投票到金門然後讓他們清訂的這些台灣選民可以從中國回到金門來做投票"},{"start":7303.598,"end":7325.527,"text":"他介入選舉的成本會降低不好意思 等兩分鐘他介入選舉的成本會降低就大概十倍左右也就是說他可以影響的人他可以動用的資源會影響到十倍多那我覺得對於我們台灣民主體制能不能承受這樣境外勢力的介入的傷害我覺得這是非常值得思考的一個問題"},{"start":7326.747,"end":7354.466,"text":"那回到討論這個強化民主投票促進法的草案我認為現在草案的民主價的形式可能會對於深化民主的參與有相對更正向且不帶負作用的效果那如同前面所述為了提高這個民主的參與如果你貿然的或說只是很單向的覺得我採取便利投票的措施就可以鼓勵大家做政治參與的話那可能反而會有反向的作用但是"},{"start":7356.668,"end":7373.297,"text":"試圖去做這個所謂的不在籍投票或是移轉投票它其實本質上就是把選民從家鄉抽離的一種投票的方式我們為何不去鼓勵他這個透過各種方式去降低他回到家鄉回到戶籍地去參與自己民主節日的投票脈絡"},{"start":7374.358,"end":7400.216,"text":"的過程中是不是可以反而讓這個民主的深化更加實現讓他更相信自己的這一票是在家鄉有作用同時也讓他能夠更了解自己戶籍地的這個政治的脈動那從這個角度而言我們覺得讓選民能夠真正的回到選區去參與在每個選區的民主的文化裡面或許才是促進選民參與政治的一個更有效的方式"},{"start":7401.338,"end":7420.405,"text":"根據這個2021年的資料全國所有地區的平均不在籍率是三成左右有三成的人不在籍這本身就是一個問題因為我們戶籍法其實是希望大家不要有人籍分離的問題但今天就沒有辦法討論這個問題不過我們仍然要肯認的是有許多人需要有這個"},{"start":7421.765,"end":7434.649,"text":"降低投票成本的狀況但是我們要去討論的是你的立法意旨最後會不會反而破壞了這個民主的核心也就是讓大家思辨讓大家互相討論去做政治決定的這個過程從這個角度來看我們覺得這個故鄉的民主價或許能夠讓台灣人有更積極的民主實踐的機會或許"},{"start":7442.011,"end":7458.1,"text":"比這個移轉投票更長遠來看它的成本更低還有政治的副作用更低但是能夠更長遠的去促進大家的投票參與可以更有效的讓離鄉的人有親近這個自己的戶籍的政治環境的機會那我也發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請紀和鈞教授"},{"start":7478.727,"end":7487.283,"text":"主席張宏祿委員然後各位學者專家然後各位機關代表大家好今天很高興能夠參與這個"},{"start":7489.524,"end":7516.862,"text":"強化民主投票促進法的草案的這個公聽會不過很有趣就是我們的題目是強化民主投票促進法的草案結果大家都在講不在投票因為學法律出身所以我還是建議我們先回到民主理論或者回到法的角度我們來討論然後再來思辨他是不是有不在即投票跟他這個那個所謂的這個"},{"start":7518.103,"end":7523.552,"text":"故鄉民族價之類的關係 這個故鄉民族價我還是今天第一次聽到還蠻有趣的一個名字"},{"start":7526.112,"end":7549.571,"text":"首先為什麼要投票這很簡單 如說18世紀就告訴我們因為統治者的統治應得被統治者同意所以要盡可能的讓大家都有機會表達他到底要不要同意現在的統治者或未來的統治者繼續統治所以才需要投票可是"},{"start":7551.943,"end":7563.47,"text":"我們這幾年的這個就應該說從20世紀以來我們開始認為民主不是只有投票啊民主還有討論啊民主還有資訊的公開啊民主還有互相的這個概念的這個交換啊結果我們到現在還在只講怎麼樣投票這樣子有沒有符合民主我個人是覺得我們可能要多想一想"},{"start":7580.728,"end":7609.759,"text":"我個人覺得我們在講這個所謂的選舉制度或者是選罷制度甚至包括公民投票制度其實它是有一個階段性的概念第一個因為我們的憲法規定我們有民主共和 抱歉這是民主共和原則我們要有民主原則我們要有共和原則所以我們希望讓越多的公民能夠參與公共政策的討論跟公共政策的決定不管是對人的或者是對事的"},{"start":7610.359,"end":7623.986,"text":"所以我們要鼓勵公民參與公共事務可是我們現在的討論裡面有沒有鼓勵公民參與公共事務好像沒有吧我們好像只是都在講你們要不要來投票你們如何投票但是"},{"start":7626.502,"end":7632.884,"text":"如同這個重要的政治學者他講過投票只是其中的一個你的事前的資訊是不是公開你的資訊是不是夠流通大家有沒有機會討論那個才是民主的真諦啊而不是只是投票啊可是我們有沒有討論這個我們在這個我們現行的不管是公職人員選舉罷免法或政府總統選舉罷免法或者是現在這個"},{"start":7657.218,"end":7685.8,"text":"民進黨黨團提出的強化民主投票促進法的草案裡面甚至是大家都一直在討論的民眾黨的所謂的全面不再提投票法草案好像都沒有提到鼓勵公民的參與公共事務這件事情這個是我覺得我們應該要先往前思考的部分第三個才是創設親民便利的"},{"start":7686.598,"end":7712.485,"text":"投票制度如何讓民眾能夠更方便更便利的去投票最後才是投完了這個結果能夠讓大家能夠服從多數統治多數同意的統治的這個治理的方向所以如果前面的沒有做到你要在後面說我們來少數服從多數多數尊重少數基本上是不太容易的"},{"start":7714.434,"end":7720.848,"text":"首先因為我們看了這個法案的這個草案的這個概念"},{"start":7721.513,"end":7736,"text":"我可以很明確的確定本法的草案的這個目的是創設親民投票制度這個好像就跟前面幾位先進所講的有一些相同有一些不同這個像我前面的這個發言的先進就講說便利投票好像不太對這個好像他沒有辦法改變這個這個投票率提升投票率可是不對啊我們看了整個的"},{"start":7752.159,"end":7780.056,"text":"這個草案裡面大家都是在要便利啊都是在便利選民去參與啊像那個我舉的這個第三個這個對我們國家考試尤其是法律系畢業的公共行政系畢業的這很重要國家考試啊國家考試不得於投票日或前一日舉辦這件事情非常重要那他是不是便利考生們去投票是啊他怎麼不是便利呢"},{"start":7781.584,"end":7790.15,"text":"大家要知道今年我們就因為在這個第一次大罷免投票的這一次剛好遇到什麼國家考試啊對不對那我們有幫考生們講過什麼嗎有沒有我們在座的先進們有沒有幫考生們講過話沒有啊所以其實強化民主投票促進法草案它的重點也是"},{"start":7810.842,"end":7837.261,"text":"如何的創設親民的投票制度第一個投票日跟前一日都放假這個其實真的在我最後再總結這個是一個很方便利的方法讓大家什麼不要都趕在投票日那天坐火車坐高鐵坐飛機回到故鄉第二個 明令各級政府提供公民反擊投票必要的交通補助及協助這個"},{"start":7839.507,"end":7867.057,"text":"預算可能蠻大的第三個我剛才講的國家考試第四個我覺得還蠻好的保障身心障礙者孕婦 孩童照顧者 年老者受監護宣告者 受輔助宣告者監督人 輔助人以及具學籍之公民行使投票不過這有點有趣受監護宣告者他怎麼投票難道在投票之前還去跟法院講說請你先解除我的監護宣告嗎"},{"start":7868.97,"end":7894.401,"text":"這個有點奇怪第五個 避免假消息的危害發生這個我覺得還不錯但是我認為強化民主投票促進法草案帶思考之處有以下四項第一個 我們已經過度受制戶籍制度使民眾難以就近實際居住地而便利投票"},{"start":7895.526,"end":7897.827,"text":"我曾經接受過相關內政部的委託我們做過戶籍制度的討論我們一個戶籍制度居然連接29種的公民權利跟社會補助我們有沒有過度的被它受制"},{"start":7916.594,"end":7934.506,"text":"第二個其實我們現在有不在籍投票制度除了剛剛先進所講的那個我們剛通過的這個公職人員選舉報名有57條的原住民投票以外其實選務人員可以在辦理選務的時候選擇是在戶籍地或者他工作地點選務工作地點"},{"start":7935.745,"end":7949.055,"text":"另外我們公民投票法25條有講要有不在地投票法的法制化所以是不是完全不可能或者已經我們從來沒有踏出過不在投票其實有啊第三個"},{"start":7951.754,"end":7979.733,"text":"我們國家因為我們已經很習慣都在週禮拜六投票其實很多國家以美國為例他們有做到禮拜二投票那他們就有講說那天要放假我們已經是高投票率的國家了你現在又要前一天又要再放假請再給我兩分鐘就結束那這樣子會不會影響產業營運啊能不能夠難以提升再提升投票率"},{"start":7981.619,"end":8010.824,"text":"還有這個也是第四項是學法律的人最重視的這個法條法案裡面大量的充斥空白授權行政機關定這個行政立法的而且很多的條文都跟現行法重複規範僅具宣誓性實役不明顯我舉個什麼例子就是如果今天這個交通部門他們不提供這個多開班次"},{"start":8011.277,"end":8040.915,"text":"我們要不要處罰他他是不是干擾投票我們這個法案裡面沒有啊法律法律要有構成要界法律效果最好不要都是宣示性個人建議的後續立法建議第一個我們在劉益洲老師在做中選會主委的時候就已經研究過了不在於投票辦法了已經研究很多年了真的可以用了第二個"},{"start":8041.653,"end":8065.11,"text":"我們軍警銷的投票權有沒有保障軍警銷有沒有保障第三個有些勞工不是領月薪他領日薪喔他一個月他固定要工作22天喔如果前一天投票投票前一天也放假他不滿他是沒有那個日薪的我們要不要全面補助他們再來啦協助在學學生投票其實我認為在學學生投票"},{"start":8071.676,"end":8100.114,"text":"其實很多學生他北漂或他到其他學校離他戶籍地不在同一個地方的大學的時候其實他跟那個大學跟附近的社區的連結比他在家鄉的連結還強可是我們跟他講說不行你只能回到你的故鄉去投票他為什麼不能夠參與他在他學校附近的社區的活動呢以上是我的這個不成熟的建議請這個大院參考 謝謝"},{"start":8102.162,"end":8130.459,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來請楊智傑教授各位好 我是雲林科技大學楊智傑我的報告會比較日本 南韓並評析各黨團目前的草案"},{"start":8133.703,"end":8159.324,"text":"先看民進黨提出的強化民主投票促進法草案其說明提到以色列 南韓 新加坡等國因放假有較高的投票率因而它草案建議將投票日及前一日均放假一日那麼比較世界各國所有的國家投票日都有放假"},{"start":8161.104,"end":8189.44,"text":"南韓週三投票放假以色列週二投票放假新加坡過去週五投票最近一次改成週六投票那台灣一直都是週六投票就放兩天假那如果要按照民進黨版的建議其實只要把投票日改成禮拜天就可以達到這個效果了"},{"start":8190.626,"end":8220.053,"text":"那世界上確實很多國家都是禮拜天投票例如歐洲國家但問題是現在週休二日年輕人週六不返鄉投票改成週日投票甚至可能以為的放三天真的就有用嗎我認為真正有用的方式還是要採取不在籍投票那不在籍投票有很多方式"},{"start":8222.408,"end":8250.065,"text":"這邊有一些方式我特別標出提前投票跟已轉投票是因為待會要做一些說明行政院有提出全國性公民投票不在籍投票法草案在行政院的法也願意嘗試採取不在籍投票但是他選擇最保守的方式"},{"start":8251.361,"end":8276.822,"text":"請接受需要現場投票的移轉投票但是到移轉到另外一個地去現場投票但行政院這個草案的方式超級嚴格必須在投票日前60日向援護基地申請申請移轉投票地點然後由移轉地編入選舉人名冊印製選票"},{"start":8282.196,"end":8306.876,"text":"那他的設計呢只限於全國性公投原因在於全國性公投的選票是一樣的所以他也沒有去規定這個選票要不要寄回給護學弟因為哪邊開票都一樣那麼接著我看民眾黨跟國民黨各委員的草案民眾黨版不在即投票法"},{"start":8307.776,"end":8334.921,"text":"他設計適用於所有的選舉中央地方選舉及公投那他採取移轉投票及指定場所投票兩種方式那國民黨各委員版的不在籍投票法草案也適用於選舉跟公投那只採取移轉投票但是"},{"start":8336.107,"end":8362.839,"text":"民眾黨跟國民黨各委員版的移轉投票的設計都有一個問題他們都沿用行政院版剛剛那個草案的一個必須在選前60天前申請移轉投票那我的疑問是移轉投票為何要在60日前提出申請為何還需要"},{"start":8364.464,"end":8392.501,"text":"編制移轉投票的選舉人名冊全世界有採取移轉投票的國家包括待會兒會介紹的日本 韓國沒有任何國家要求要60日前提出申請還要再去編新的名冊而且年輕人在外地工作 求學 生活緊張能否返鄉投票"},{"start":8394.131,"end":8419.863,"text":"往往是到投票前臨時才決定怎麼有可能60天前提出申請我必須指出行政院版這樣的設計其實目的是讓整個制度很難用而民眾黨國民黨委員版原用行政院的這個設計是沒有研究清楚就延續他的設計"},{"start":8423.101,"end":8451.456,"text":"還有一個實際的問題技術上的問題行政院板子針對全國性溝投他的選票全國都是一樣的所以他就說由移轉地去印製選票也沒特別再去講選票要不要寄回因為全國都哪裡開票都一樣但是地方選舉的選票都是不一樣的不可能交由移轉地去印製選票"},{"start":8452.844,"end":8479.534,"text":"而且投完票一定要寄回給原戶籍地去開票那民眾黨版跟國民黨版可能都忽略了這個問題他也沒有去規範以下我介紹日本跟南韓的不在籍投票制度日本有許多不在籍投票制度我只介紹最接近的兩種制度一 提前投票提前投票是一種在籍投票"},{"start":8480.556,"end":8508.469,"text":"選民可到戶籍地的提前投票所在公告日內去提不用事前申請最慢在選前一天去提去投而不在籍投票也就是我們所謂的移轉投票選民要向戶籍地選委會申請包括線上申請戶籍地選委會會寄給你選票跟信封收到後"},{"start":8509.508,"end":8537.379,"text":"最慢在選前一日向不在籍地的投票場所投票那麼該不在籍地的投票所最後會將選票寄回給戶籍地開票接著看南韓南韓也有非常多不在籍投票方式我只介紹一個提前投票南韓的提前投票同時就是移轉投票"},{"start":8539.175,"end":8560.373,"text":"他們大選一般在週三投票在前一個週五週六選民不用事前申請可以直接到全國各地區提前投票所投票不一定要在自己的戶籍地提前投票所他全國戶籍會連線當場就會印製特製的選票"},{"start":8567.526,"end":8592.101,"text":"那開票的時候呢如果你是在原自己戶籍地做提前投票的那個選票留在原戶籍地區去開票如果不是在原戶籍地投票的就是已轉投票的那麼該提前投票所會以掛號寄回給戶籍地在戶籍地開票了解日本跟南韓的實際運作之後"},{"start":8593.322,"end":8616.874,"text":"我對民眾黨跟國民黨版提出幾個修正建議抱歉待會再給我兩分鐘對移轉投票部分目前民眾黨國民黨都參考行政院錯誤的規定說要選前60日內申請還要編制新的選舉人名冊建議一將"},{"start":8618.218,"end":8645.865,"text":"選前60日申請改為最慢選前3日或5日申請二 刪除繁瑣的編譯新的不在籍選舉人名冊規定三 選票必須由原戶籍地區印製寄給選民四 明定選民最慢在選前一日到移轉地投出移轉地再寄回給戶籍地開票對指定場所投票"},{"start":8647.045,"end":8675.565,"text":"民眾黨現行草案列了四種人可以適用指定場所投票但參考日本跟南韓都欠缺了老病殘這種類型所以我建議指定場所投票增加老病殘這種類型最後全世界所有先進民主國家都採取非常多的不在籍投票"},{"start":8676.786,"end":8698.61,"text":"那台灣是非常保守非常抗拒那行政院對公投公民投票呢願意開放但也只採取最保守的一轉投票而且他的設計跟全世界都不一樣他要求要60日前申請還要編新的選舉的名冊"},{"start":8700.339,"end":8716.662,"text":"全世界都沒有這樣我建議參考日本南韓的設計做合理的修正這樣移轉投票的運作才可以真正的實施我也期待這樣的實施謝謝大家好謝謝接下來我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":8729.445,"end":8752.059,"text":"主席各位先進專家學者與親愛的家人大家好感謝大家在百忙之中還那麼冷的天氣來到立法院為台灣民主制度提供寶貴的專業的意見我們一起給大家一個掌聲好嗎感謝大家大家真的太棒了所以呢這麼"},{"start":8754.62,"end":8768.965,"text":"大家這樣的參與本身就是民主最重要的力量今天我代表台灣民眾黨用最白話也最真誠的方式說明三件事情為什麼要推動"},{"start":8770.277,"end":8790.084,"text":"很民主不在即投票我們解決的是誰的問題又守住了哪一些民主的底線第一我們要解決的不是要不要投票而是能不能投票很多人說台灣投票率不低制度沒有問題但我們"},{"start":8792.547,"end":8812.918,"text":"請大家想一個最基本的問題如果投票前必須先請假買車票搭高鐵轉捷運還要承擔交通的風險戶籍地和這樣風險還是算平等的公民權嗎現在有超過200萬"},{"start":8817.236,"end":8844.135,"text":"我們的國民戶籍地和實際生活地不在同一個縣市他們不是不關心政治而是制度要求付出額外的成本才能行使一個本來就屬於自己的權利這不是人民的問題而是制度沒有跟上人民生活形態的問題第二"},{"start":8846.957,"end":8865.795,"text":"台灣民眾黨更民主的不再急投票不是冒進 而是補齊制度缺口民眾黨提出更民主的不再急投票的制度非常保守 也非常清楚只做移轉投票"},{"start":8866.616,"end":8892.964,"text":"只在指定場所投票不做通訊投票不做網路投票也就是說你還是本人到場還是實際投票還是現場監督只是不用被戶籍地綁住了而是回到你真正生活的地方投票這"},{"start":8894.54,"end":8919.925,"text":"不是增低標準而是讓制度回到人民的身邊第三安全不是問題台灣有能力也早就準備好了有人擔心選舉安全國安風險但是我們必須誠實面對一件事台灣在身份驗證資料北對還有"},{"start":8924.12,"end":8950.382,"text":"選務管理 資安與國安防衛上本來就是世界級的標準我們能守住的監保系統 金融體系 國安資安卻說自己連換一個地方投票都做不到這不符合台灣真實的能力"},{"start":8951.158,"end":8962.487,"text":"而且民眾黨版本刻意避開所有高風險的科技沒有新增漏洞只是合理調整的流程"},{"start":8963.24,"end":8981.034,"text":"第四 這個制度真是回應民間團體於年輕世代的真實需求現在被制度擋在門外的真是大家長期關心的那一群人 外地工作者 打工學生"},{"start":8981.976,"end":8989.402,"text":"醫療警消輪班勞工北漂南漂的青年離島居民他們不是不要投票而是不應該為了投票付出不合理的代價一個好的民主制度不該只服務時間多資源多動員能力強的人最後"},{"start":9008.052,"end":9018.324,"text":"感謝大家來給我們最寶貴的意見希望今天討論能讓大家清楚看見真正的民主"},{"start":9018.837,"end":9038.224,"text":"不叫做人民走更遠而是讓制度走進人民不再急投票不是政治操作而是一項便民安全可監督可落實的制度該成為一個真實"},{"start":9040.586,"end":9058.875,"text":"請聽專家回應人民生活現實的起點台灣有能力也有責任把民主制度做得更公平更安全及更有效的投票制度更民主的公民權謝謝大家"},{"start":9063.39,"end":9078.17,"text":"好我們今天所有的專家學者都已發言完畢那我們現在先請我們與會機關代表回應說明我們先請內政部"},{"start":9088.523,"end":9105.936,"text":"主席還有各位學者今天也特別感謝所有的與會的專家學者跟委員的發言那有關不在即投票跟如何防範假錯訊息來破壞民主制度的相關建議那我想我們內政部都會入案來作為未來推動相關業務的研議參考"},{"start":9107.301,"end":9131.159,"text":"那再來就是全面實施不在籍投票在現實面其實會衍生選務作業的高度複雜投票秘密跟無法維護那尤其是在現在境外敵對勢力及其他不法人士危害選舉的公平性的問題我們內政部也重申在現階段並不宜貿然全面推動不在籍投票以上那我們再請中選會"},{"start":9146.543,"end":9174.189,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那有關於今天的這些討論的議題那本會的意見就詳如書面報告那簡要報告如下第一點就是實施全面實施不在意投票那的確會對選務作業會造成衝擊那這些衝擊的項目就剛如同內政部次長所報告的這些一樣那第二點就是有關於投票日前一日均放假這個規定"},{"start":9175.309,"end":9193.139,"text":"那由於中選會認為說只要在選務的層面具有可行性那不影響選舉跟公民投票競爭的公平性選民對投票結果公正性的信賴這些情況之下那有助於選民行使投票權的法案那本會都均予以尊重那另外有關於說防範"},{"start":9194.159,"end":9214.171,"text":"資訊戰與錯誤的假訊息攻擊破壞民主制度這些那本會也會都會透過錯假訊息的澄清舉報跟宣傳等等措施那尤其在投票日的時候我們會建立這種封閉式的電腦計票網路跟設計備援的機房然後經過完整的電腦作業"},{"start":9215.572,"end":9231.417,"text":"演練然後在投票日當日還會成立中央選情中心那有效的來持續降低不實資訊對選民認知與投票行為的影響那確保選舉制度的公正性透明性來鞏固民主制度的根本價值以上謝謝因為這個謝謝教授"},{"start":9253.261,"end":9271.056,"text":"我沒有提到說可以多談兩分鐘所以我時間到之前幾十秒就結束了後來我想這樣子就是說今天大家討論的東西本來是民進黨黨團提出來的但是後來又延伸到很多不在己投票的問題"},{"start":9272.216,"end":9297.12,"text":"未來大院相關的這個公聽會應該把它放在一起然後一起討論這是第一點建議第二點如果是思考不在己投票的問題的話我想不管是現在執政黨或者是在野黨剛剛幾位我們教授都提到都太保守了我們都沒有發展前瞻性的想法"},{"start":9298.206,"end":9313.384,"text":"一個台灣這麼好的民主已經邁入了民主先進國家美國的自由之家把它評比民主自由是非常高的我們為什麼不敢大膽的去思考所謂的通訊投票"},{"start":9314.591,"end":9338.713,"text":"那我讲的通讯投票不是全面性的海内外全部一起的就如同我们当年办义务教育一样先办9年甚至民国57年之前已经在一些地方已经先实施试验了我们可不可以也在通讯投票实施年轻人的部分先行也就是说渐进式的"},{"start":9339.68,"end":9360.698,"text":"這個部分我想才是比較前瞻的想法我們不要怕這個怕那個現在剛剛不是很多人講年輕人趕快補助他的經費回鄉投票回鄉不是投票一次就代表愛自己的鄉土我退休了之後被雲林的兩個鄉鎮找回去寫鄉鎮誌的確我們外流人口很嚴重"},{"start":9361.579,"end":9376.829,"text":"但是不是一次性的不是說到嘉義市的園環然後就參與民主那只是可能一小時嘉義的人口26萬能夠到園環附近去參與那一場的有多少人"},{"start":9377.993,"end":9391.986,"text":"我想這個都是我們可以比較開放的因為蔣教授提到說這一場是最和諧的所以我想就是有一點焦急大家有一點焦急之後也給貴院做參考 謝謝好 來 請賴律師"},{"start":9404.045,"end":9429.875,"text":"主席各位先進感謝主席讓我再有發言的機會今天非常高興可以聽到各位先進寶貴的意見不管我們的想法相同或不相同在台灣討論投票制度不管是你要多放假一天還是要用不在籍投票我想對台灣民主這是一個非常關鍵的討論"},{"start":9432.977,"end":9454.195,"text":"就如同先進所指教的今天的今天的公聽會主題應該是民進黨的促進民主加強民主投票促進法那為什麼要這麼多人這麼關心不在籍投票那是因為"},{"start":9455.336,"end":9474.868,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨所提出來的不在籍投票法自從交付委員會審查以後委員會完全沒有開過任何一場公定會也沒有開過任何的審查會然後就在上個月12月12號抽出禁覆二讀然後在這個月1月12號"},{"start":9481.131,"end":9506.159,"text":"馬上很可能二三讀闖關那我不曉得麥玉珍委員剛剛已經先走了如果可能的話是不是我們這些學者專家一起來呼籲台灣民眾黨讓這個法案就是在二三讀闖關之前真的讓社會可以討論我們再來開公聽會再把這個案子送回委員會仔細討論而不是沒有經過討論"},{"start":9510.04,"end":9532.97,"text":"就要這樣衝突的闖關大法官憲法法庭的判決已經指出不議而決不是憲法所賦予立法院的議決權今天這個公聽會大家在A法案的公聽會去討論民眾黨B法案的不在籍投票這個荒謬正凸顯不議而決的荒謬"},{"start":9540.754,"end":9546.458,"text":"好謝謝賴律師還有沒有其他要補充的謝謝主席的時間因為剛才那個麥委員提到那個國安資安跟那個身份認定的問題這點剛好就來做一點補充因為我有去請教那個我做那個所有的資安的相關資安圈的那個朋友啦他們說就是現在就是要在投票的時候要去做那個"},{"start":9568.334,"end":9583.824,"text":"就是身份認定這件事情你要跨區做這件事情的那個難度是相當高的那我們要再提醒大家就是在台大有實驗過任何各種各式各樣的這種通訊投票或移轉投票這種方式每一屆都有很多的這個問題所以其實在執行層面上面是一定要小心的"},{"start":9584.244,"end":9598.818,"text":"那這個剛才要呼籲一下這個賴律師就是說我們就是今天沒有任何機會去討論移轉投票然後就或者是這個不再離投票那我們現在在討論這個對岸就是這個多放一天假讓大家更方便投票這件事情可見其實"},{"start":9599.861,"end":9620.721,"text":"大家是有個共識這個共識就是說希望讓鼓勵大家就是能夠越方便投票越好這件事情是確定的所以這個作為一個對岸的話我覺得以目前的這個多放一天假的這種方式可以達到鼓勵大家去投票的這個效果可是如果說我們就直接開放了這個這個移轉投票或者是"},{"start":9621.401,"end":9634.63,"text":"不在意投票的話在執行層面上真的是會有非常多的問題像剛才說到如果還要記回的然後還有就是大家想想看比如說九合一選舉你原來一個投票所有九個投票箱可是接下來你九個投票箱還要就是再加上別的縣市那這樣加起來可能就是你光是市長成績變二十二個投票箱一個投票箱變二十二個投票箱然後再往下的這個議員成績"},{"start":9645.658,"end":9673.671,"text":"更不用就是每一個投票箱就是大概的那個投票箱數量就開不完了那如果你還要移轉回去的話我就問大家一個問題就好大家能不能夠接受我們現在是四個小時可以開完票結果可能要變成兩天三天才能開完票大家能不能接受這件事情我個人是覺得這個是會有非常非常高度的這個疑慮的所以我是希望說我們對於這個不在意投票啊或者是相關的這個配套呢都能夠有更多的這個討論那在身份認定那個地方國安治安這個問題我覺得也是相當的這個需要考慮的好 謝謝"},{"start":9677.313,"end":9692.122,"text":"還有沒有好 沒有 謝謝很感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見其實在座我真正親自辦過選舉的應該是我"},{"start":9694.659,"end":9715.818,"text":"我當過台北縣的選委會總幹事當了四年怎麼辦選舉實際的操作是我甚至我必須也說中選會的人如果不是從地方來他們也沒辦過選舉我跟你講我覺得很多方向都是好的但目前的台灣"},{"start":9717.202,"end":9732.23,"text":"我們能夠一步到位嗎我覺得這個可能後續我們要修法後續要什麼或有機會再討論的話大家可以思考一下也請大家到時候再給我們寶貴的意見在這邊先拜託大家"},{"start":9733.231,"end":9752.705,"text":"好所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料及高精素美委員所提書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及所有初列席委員參考再一次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":9761.493,"end":9764.974,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9809.326,"end":9828.677,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9836.783,"end":9845.52,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}