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請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1584.484,"end":1605.183,"text":"來現在開會那要本日會議成為審查國民黨黨團台灣民眾黨黨團拟據台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案以案那我也想要補充說明一下各位委員和各位先進其實今天排審這個相關的這個這個條例呢其實並非是一時興起"},{"start":1606.384,"end":1628.813,"text":"應該是要回應一個迫在眉睫攸關國家長遠發展的結構性危機前幾天公佈我們台灣的出生一年出生人口才10.7萬創下歷史最慘的狀況而且我們國家的65歲上的人口占比在1993年的時候是7%那但是呢正是"},{"start":1629.873,"end":1652.231,"text":"進入高齡化社會但是在2018年突破了14%到了現在更要跨越20%已經進入超高齡的社會所以我想其他的國家往往都是半世紀以上才會達到這樣的狀況可是我們呢卻在短短的20年30年就達到這樣的狀況所以很多專家形容這樣子的節奏叫做老的快準備慢"},{"start":1653.232,"end":1662.685,"text":"但是我們人口老化並不是一個單一的路徑而是因為有少子化有人口萎縮的同步發生所以我們應該要來正視"},{"start":1664.284,"end":1691.846,"text":"非常嚴肅的面對這樣的問題那這也意味著我們社會需要一邊照顧這些增加醫療啦老年給付但是另外一方面也需要為我們的出生率來負責我們希望不要說今天不做明天會後悔所以今天要特別排審這樣相關的法案跟大家說明一下那我們現在介紹一下在場的委員跟列席官員在場的委員有陳昭之委員"},{"start":1695.462,"end":1719.446,"text":"還有這個我們郭國文委員還有賴慧媛委員還有林月琴委員還有我們鍾嘉賓委員還有黃秀芳委員王振旭委員還有我們這個圖權吉委員還有一位還有吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":1724.11,"end":1748.416,"text":"那介紹在場的列席官員衛生福利部部長石崇良早還有我們政務次長呂健德社會救助及社公司司長蘇昭如法規會參事陳信成社會及家庭署署長周道軍"},{"start":1752.273,"end":1778.357,"text":"護理及健康照護司副司長陳青梅國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴社會發展處處長張復林人力發展處處長謝嘉怡行政院主計總處公務預算處處長徐永毅"},{"start":1781.304,"end":1809.261,"text":"財政部負稅署署長宋秀琳所得稅組組長葉惠娟財產稅組組長吳君泰國庫署副署長馬曉慧庫務管理組副組長張益心債務管理組副組長邱美琪"},{"start":1811.721,"end":1836.23,"text":"金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局局長高金平勞動部勞工保險局局長白立貞勞動基金運用局副局長劉立儒教育部國民及學前教育署副署長許立堅"},{"start":1839.229,"end":1852.661,"text":"還有法務部參事汪南鈞謝謝好那現在請請程旭發言"},{"start":1856.602,"end":1870.438,"text":"主席 那麼在場的各位委員先進還有我們列席的政府機關市長官員還有辛苦的媒體記者女士先生會場的工作人員那麼剛剛聽到主席一番語重心長的談話一般在我們聯席委員會"},{"start":1871.699,"end":1898.408,"text":"主席呢當然會做今天的議程做一些提示那今天的主席憂心忡忡的提到少子化的問題讓我們覺得深有同感因此呢大家可以看得到今天雖然天氣很冷但是呢民進黨黨團我們財政跟未還的委員呢半數都到了現場表示這個議題的確召委主席排的議題的確是社會關心也是民進黨黨團非常關切的一個事情那就成如啊"},{"start":1900.109,"end":1914.899,"text":"剛剛主席所說的這個絕對不是一時興起因為相關的內容的類似的提案本黨的委員早在多年前包括在場的郭委員張雅琳委員都有提出類似的提案因此我們在這裡因為過去這是研會的會期"},{"start":1918.522,"end":1933.229,"text":"那大家研會的會期啊主要是要處理年度總預算這也是去年我想提案的民眾黨提出民眾黨們提出為什麼要研會那就是因為我們沒有辦法在去年年底之前完成總預算的審查"},{"start":1934.249,"end":1958.11,"text":"那今天我們在這個研會的會期當中那麼召委呢又特別排了這個關係到我們整個國家財政長久發展均衡發展一個重要的議題那我們在這裡呢也看到了在過去去年到現在啊有許多的禁夫惡毒的法案那麼造成社會很大的一個波瀾怎麼說呢"},{"start":1958.59,"end":1979.021,"text":"因為禁夫惡毒的結果就是在委員會沒有充分討論往往這樣的法案引起了社會的爭議引起社會的矚目之後那麼發動禁夫惡毒的黨團用馬上的把它按下不表但是始終是在這個院會裡面的伺機而動那在這裡也更造為一個建議既然這個不是一時興起"},{"start":1979.981,"end":2006.154,"text":"既然這個是關係到包括我們的國民現在將出生的未來將出生的未來18歲之後他們有沒有有一個國家幫他準備的一個未來我是建議主席這邊是不是很清楚的那我們在委員會接下來的議程不管是在國民黨黨團召委的還是在民進黨黨團召委的我們可以有一個公聽會那這個公聽會充分的來了解社會各界的意見"},{"start":2006.974,"end":2031.292,"text":"那為什麼要特別提出這樣的一個建議呢 程序上的建議呢因為成如剛剛所說的我們預算會期 特別研會是要處理總預算但是既然排了這麼重要的法案而它顯然的在這個研會會期內啊它也沒有辦法進行到往下的程序推動那在委員會目前我們所剩餘的大概算給大家聽只有4次本週這一次不算之外"},{"start":2032.287,"end":2054.88,"text":"三次是全員委員會 下週也是全員委員會只有下週一次 還有1月的最後一週三次那麼在這四次的委員會當中呢如果兩黨的 兩位召委同意的話這個案子也很重要的話建議召委可以考慮 主席可以考慮一下是不是我們在所餘的這四次的委員會如果總預算沒有辦法有任何的推進"},{"start":2055.56,"end":2071.474,"text":"那是不是一個重大的議案呢我們可以來安排公聽會來廣聽社會各界的不同意見因為立法院最近的一些問題都是在於說可能對於立法的節奏討論不足讓社會有擔憂"},{"start":2072.375,"end":2098.595,"text":"那我相信這麼重大的議題關係到未來現在0到未來18歲的年輕人他們所關心的議題還有很多家庭所關心的議題是不是我們這個今天的排審今天是先詢答那未來呢如果後續可以的話盡量的安排公聽位以上程序上的建議請主席參佐 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言那請郭國勇委員"},{"start":2105.74,"end":2126.087,"text":"謝謝主席安排今天的這個法案的討論關於這個未來賬戶制既然剛剛主席有提到不是一時興起那也就不用急於一時那就側面的了解其實行政部門基本上目前也要進行一些制度上的檢討跟討論特別國發會也好 經廣協會也好還有主政的衛福部也好"},{"start":2126.767,"end":2155.555,"text":"那就衛福部內容當中基本上當初的一個利益良善的這個制度面還是有它侷限的地方我們是不是能夠等到這個官方的這個行政院的版本出來那以目前的這個衛福部的這個賬戶的精神是屬於儲蓄的精神而這個部分呢今天那個主席所排審的這個部分有投資跟儲蓄的精神而這個投資跟儲蓄的這個精神其實跟本席的提案也是那個提案發言一樣"},{"start":2156.415,"end":2182.846,"text":"本席的法案基本上不曉得本委員會速度這麼快速其實我的法案也是朝你好了我希望有機會能夠來跟國民黨跟民眾黨版本來做一個版本的比較跟對話的機會我相信不同的版本比較做一個公開的討論其實是比較好的所以如果急於一時將單一的政黨的版本把它送出委員會的話我是覺得措施的對話機會也會可能"},{"start":2184.967,"end":2205.439,"text":"也有缺一掛一落萬的一個可能就制度的內容當中如果有機會的話我們後續來做討論程序上的發言我們希望說有更多的版本不論是行政院版本也好本人的版本也好或者是藍白的版本也好我們透過不同的版本來透過智慧的火花的一個激盪然後創造一個更好的版本出來謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2211.328,"end":2215.93,"text":"感謝建議 本席會納入考量 那請賴會員委員謝謝主席 我想在這裡要跟主席那個感謝在台灣未來帳戶的這個特別條例的一個草案的一個探討其實深入我那個郭公文委員 鍾嘉斌委員那個所有的一個建議"},{"start":2237.137,"end":2241.679,"text":"我本人也給予這個呼籲因為其實這個政府要花4500億來推動這一項法案我們必須要嚴肅的去面對到底這一筆錢有沒有辦法解決就是說家長的藍莓之急還是說有辦法解決這個少子化"},{"start":2256.025,"end":2272.462,"text":"那有投資有儲蓄這是一部非常好的一個那個法律那我們應該是有更多的一個機會可以共同的來探討那陳儒就是說今天我們所有的一個排案顯然這個排審的這個案例"},{"start":2275.084,"end":2286.95,"text":"好像就只有這個民眾黨跟那個國民黨的一個提案是不是有機會我們可以看到更多的一個提案大家共同的來探討以上謝謝主席好謝謝請請張阿玲委員發言"},{"start":2302.21,"end":2316.757,"text":"謝謝主席我想就是因為其實在這個版本上面其實我從去年3月就一直跟行政院這邊有在討論去年年底的時候院長其實也都已經回覆願意來去支持擴大來辦理那我是一直在想就是說"},{"start":2318.037,"end":2337.275,"text":"國民黨民眾黨當然一起來為兒童好我覺得是一件好的事情願意來跟進這也是一件好事但是呢我覺得在這個法案上面的審查上面應該要來仔細的討論為什麼我們去年3月就提出來一直到11月才提出完整的一個質詢呢最主要是因為我們在跟整個團體一直在陸續收納意見"},{"start":2339.096,"end":2357.944,"text":"所以我想從去年我們在講兒家屬到現在我們也都是希望可以實際的來審查來回應第一線的聲音所以我也希望說因為像這個題目家福也都做了蠻久的時間了家福基金會我想我也希望主席可以一起來辦四場公聽會"},{"start":2359.264,"end":2374.994,"text":"我們可以廣納大家的意見來確保我們從財政從社政上面都能夠真正的回應到我們的初心回應到我們的初心去照顧我們的小孩照顧我們的家長支持我們的家長這才是我們做這個政策的本意這才是我們做這個"},{"start":2376.415,"end":2399.863,"text":"兒少帳戶的一個本意所以我是希望說主席我們今天在審查上面我們是不是就是先進行詢答我們來看看這個衛福部的態度之後我們來辦公聽會讓公聽會讓各種不同的意見都能夠來了解因為像現在我們今天要審查的這個條例上面雖然說包裝是在一個要給孩子公平的起跑險但是我必須要說現在這個條"},{"start":2402.626,"end":2417.268,"text":"這個條案上面在財政上在公平上在實務上都存在高度的風險我自己看這個法案因為我畢竟做了一年的研究一年以上的研究我們其實現在有新加坡的影子也有美國的影子也有英國的影子"},{"start":2417.688,"end":2444.765,"text":"是一個非常大雜匯的一個法案那這個其實影響非常大因為有些國家他們都只有各取一部分為什麼因為他們還是要考量一個延續性因為像英國一開始也有像類似這樣子的一個法案但是他後來做不下去了他停下來了所以如果我們要持續的穩定的來去支持我們每一個孩子出生都有這樣子的一個東西的話這樣子的一個賬戶的話那我們就應該要更審慎的評估才能夠在大家跨黨"},{"start":2445.726,"end":2465.792,"text":"朝野一起的努力之下真正的回應到我們的孩子我們的家庭身上因為我一直是從兒少團體出來的所以我非常非常看重這件事情所以我希望我也要懇請我們的國民黨的更民眾的委員好大家一起來務實的審查理性的審查好好的討論因為這都是好的事謝謝好謝謝謝謝張艾玲委員發言請林德福委員持續發言"},{"start":2490.559,"end":2510.209,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席還有與會各列席官員還有各位同仁我想目前我們存在的少子化的問題本席認為整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案除了可以減輕整個父母親養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲"},{"start":2512.31,"end":2538.712,"text":"青年朋友第一桶金面對未來的挑戰有更多元的選擇一舉兩得不論是用於職業的訓練進修甚至於創業本席認為大方向出發點絕對是利益良善像美國 英國甚至於加拿大 新加坡他們都有類似方案可以供我們來學習也希望說行政部門"},{"start":2539.873,"end":2563.911,"text":"你們不要預設立場不要說只有看顏色黨派就來加以各方面的批評因為行政部門更應該要及時廣益只要有助於改善少子化的做法都應該要納入考量因為你像去年我們總共出生率現在只有到十萬七千多人"},{"start":2566.217,"end":2584.93,"text":"我相信朝野溝通形成一個政策後權力來推動主要就是我們現在面臨到生不如死真的因為甚至於今年出生率會更低我相信這是擺在眼前的事實過去農業社會一年四十幾萬人現在"},{"start":2587.699,"end":2613.991,"text":"只有25%甚至於不到我相信今年會更少所以說我們應該未雨綢繆那希望我們草野大家共同來努力主要我們是解決問題那讓家長的負擔能夠更輕我相信我們大家一定要共同來面對以上 謝謝謝謝林德福委員發言林岳勤委員"},{"start":2625.03,"end":2650.038,"text":"利益良善的政策都很好可是如果沒有規劃好就會是一場災難為什麼這樣講呢因為我看到草案的提案說明要做到第一條就講說為因應少子女化的挑戰跟跨世代貧富差距跟要協助兒少累積發展性資本還要落實人才培育發展平權"},{"start":2651.238,"end":2669.797,"text":"还要保障其成年后的教育跟创业资源这么样多的目标单一的一个只要存进去就可以解决吗相同的就是说我们的少子化的政策花了1000亿有做额托有做生育的一些补助和教育"},{"start":2670.157,"end":2698.934,"text":"它事实上是从头包到尾可是今天如果单纯这样的一个账户就要花掉这样子的钱那到底我们要回应的是什么因为如果我们自己细看就会知道今天国民党提出来的原用的各国的投资账户那大概只有新加坡是比较是针对鼓励生育那今天国民党的提出来的是说要先因应少子少子女化的挑战"},{"start":2699.995,"end":2723.508,"text":"如果只有錢就可以解決的話那就不會這麼簡單了今天少子女化有非常多的因素在所以要各方各面的去政策去就像我們原來提出來少子女化政策裡面有各種的一個對應的策略甚至講到說今天我們應該要來解決跨世代的貧窮差距不用跨世代"},{"start":2724.548,"end":2736.786,"text":"只要一時時下去就現在馬上就貧富差距我覺得這樣的條文裡面不是所謂我們過去在講很多條文最好排富可是我覺得這樣條文下去叫做排貧"},{"start":2738.689,"end":2756.878,"text":"就會讓貧困的人越貧困為什麼 原來我們執行的過去我們把它俗稱叫做兒童脫貧帳戶也就是現在政府在推動的兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶這個帳戶事實上是讓弱勢的家庭能夠"},{"start":2758.078,"end":2774.493,"text":"政府一對一 一比一的補助讓他們未來真的有第一桶金如果都弄得一樣的時候那現在就馬上讓他們還是在貧窮的困境裡面去所以到底要解決是什麼怎麼會是講說要解決跨世代的"},{"start":2775.854,"end":2803.566,"text":"負差距沒有不用跨世代我覺得現在馬上就立即面對到所以韓國的這個他們的也事實上是針對社會救助對低收入家庭的支持所以如果國民黨提供的也就是說有提到韓國那一樣他也是社會救助的一環那加拿大是鼓勵家庭為子女高等教育來儲蓄那如果講到這個台灣也有在做啊從我們的非營利幼兒園公立幼兒園"},{"start":2804.526,"end":2819.285,"text":"甚至我們的准工在一直進入到大學的時候有學費補助還有租屋的貼補這些為什麼要整個配套去做不是單一的我們很擔心的是說只會讓有錢的更有錢"},{"start":2820.646,"end":2847.2,"text":"今天政府在資源有限的時候不是要優先照顧弱勢嗎所有的政策都是一種選擇如果我們選了A就會影響到B那我最擔心最害怕的是影響到弱勢我最擔心最害怕的是這些本來社會福利要照顧的人反而受到影響這不會是件好事所以我認為應該是不是要好好的討論如果"},{"start":2847.76,"end":2867.374,"text":"草案說明裡邊舉的很多國家甚至英國已經事實上是因為財政關係沒有辦法繼續下去可不可以好好討論弄一個好的法來真的才是服國利民而不是變成是一場災難那真正弱勢沒有照顧到反而是加強更富有的人這我不樂見 以上"},{"start":2870.065,"end":2893.527,"text":"謝謝我想我補充說明一下各位委員都很緊張我們大家都很緊張貧富差距這10年已經變成從75倍變150倍我們大家也很緊張少子化但是大家也很緊張好像今天就一定會主條我跟大家報告一下今天大家有很多意見發言等一下質詢的時候都可以好好講那今天就選讀完條例就好沒有要主條審查"},{"start":2895.939,"end":2908.619,"text":"我本席會納入考量喔 好不好本席會納入考量 謝謝本席會納入考量請 剛剛是建國召委嗎 還是是誰修方委員先"},{"start":2919.526,"end":2932.826,"text":"謝謝 針對今天這個台灣未來賬戶我相信很多委員都非常的關心那也非常多的委員在去年的時候就有針對這一部分有做質詢那雅玲議員還有郭國文委員"},{"start":2933.667,"end":2948.36,"text":"雅琳委員還有郭國文委員他們也有提案所以我希望就是說是不是主席可以列入就是說未來我們是不是也要開公聽會那廣納所有這個學者專家的一個意見"},{"start":2949.881,"end":2968.332,"text":"另外剛剛主席有說這個台灣未來賬戶是為了因應少子化那我覺得說少子化的這個議題不是錢可以解決的那當然這個也是一個選項那我希望就是說不論是我們的衛福部或其他"},{"start":2969.533,"end":2988.643,"text":"這個單位應該針對這個少子女化的這個議題應該有更周延的一些因應的措施因為我在上禮拜的時候我有特別質詢過我們的這個這個時部長就是針對少子女化去年已經剩下十萬七千名的這個新生兒那從"},{"start":2991.244,"end":3012.274,"text":"从七八年前差不多20万到现在整个断崖式的人口减少我觉得这真的是对整个国家的竞争力来讲真的是会影响非常的大我希望说针对今天国民党跟民众党所提出来的台湾未来账户我觉得这个真的也是非常重要"},{"start":3013.034,"end":3040.85,"text":"對於我們的這個從小朋友然後一直到這個18歲能夠給他一桶金我覺得這個也是真的非常重要可是需要各部會還有所有的專家學者大家一起來討論那我們有看到國外的這個例子也有失敗的例子那我們希望就是說這個帳戶未來開下去之後是能夠真的是成功而且是長長久久的所以我希望主席今天應該"},{"start":3042.611,"end":3063.345,"text":"刚刚主席有特别提到就是说不会出委员会嘛那我们希望说也可以开公听会广纳各界的一个意见那让这个账户台湾未来账户真的是可长可久而不是说未来我们看到这个条文里面有针对"},{"start":3064.125,"end":3076.837,"text":"可能跟現在這個台股就是說由這個勞保基金這邊一起來這個操作那看到台股現在的整個表現非常的亮眼那也有可能這個因為經濟"},{"start":3079.719,"end":3107.78,"text":"不是永久都是這麼好啊也可能會碰到有一些這個危機的時候那怎麼讓這個賬戶能夠可長可久所以我希望主席今天除了這個聽大家的意見之外我希望說未來能夠辦公廳會好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言要那個還是我們要登記一下這個程序 請請請我是說大家後面還是最後一位好不好"},{"start":3110.095,"end":3138.003,"text":"還有建國召委謝謝主席我想主席也非常的迫切想要解決臺灣重要的問題這個大家都很清楚所以今天很高興有這個時間跟大家來討論在程序上我們先確認一下因為基本上我們還是希望可以召開公聽會因為這個議題真的非常非常的大對將來的影響會非常的久遠"},{"start":3138.703,"end":3165.352,"text":"所以如果能夠透過公聽的方式來召集更多更廣大這個全體國民的意見還有當然各位委員的意見應該希望能夠讓這樣的法案可以經過充分討論以後再進入到主條我想剛剛主席已經很明確的跟大家做了這個事情那其實我們也擔心在這個法案裡面基本上會在未來的13年編列總預算的經費是到達4500億"},{"start":3167.333,"end":3182.521,"text":"而且這個初始的資金就要1130億那每年還要266億所以這樣的設計能是不是對於我們這個財政紀律法上面的這個法尊需要也要同時的去了解跟注意"},{"start":3183.081,"end":3204.113,"text":"那我們其實也知道目前的少子化對策計畫裡面已經有編列相當多的一些費用在上面所以這樣會不會造成其他的排擠效應那再加上我們法案中裡面有提到這個賬戶會的希望是用在教育就業還有這個職業等等的這些幫助甚至購屋啊租屋那行政機關"},{"start":3205.214,"end":3226.375,"text":"也希望有更多元的這個機關能夠在現場來回應這些需求所以我們也期待在今天的這個諮詢答詢裡面也把這些議題都能夠納進來那同時民間對於少子化的對策有很多的想法所以期待我們希望能夠有更多元的聲音透過公聽會"},{"start":3227.756,"end":3236.439,"text":"讓這些聲音都能夠納到未來在做這個主條法案審查過程當中能夠有更完整的一些呈現以上謝謝主席謝謝那謝謝王正旭委員發言請劉建國召委發言"},{"start":3253.337,"end":3274.832,"text":"好 還是要謝謝昭偉今天來排這個這樣的一個法案的一個審查那我只是想要再度的做一個說明跟這個歷史背景的喚醒大家的記憶應該要訂一部新的法律那基本上明明知道的事情太多太多我用這樣來隱喻"},{"start":3276.311,"end":3304.301,"text":"我們兒童的專委我們用了六次委員會然後是很冗長的讓大家有充分發援的這樣一個機會那一樣關心到全國的兒童的另外這個議題來講那我當然也期待在我這邊可以思考是不是有這樣再多召開幾次的公聽會讓大家像今天有比較充分討論的這樣的一個時間跟空間這是第一點"},{"start":3304.901,"end":3322.709,"text":"那第二點那火力的定力基本上就是要保障要定制度然後更要極盡公平那我們必須要把過去的歷史背景再跟各位來做一個說明剛剛這個張文有特別提到這個兒童與少年"},{"start":3323.489,"end":3338.121,"text":"這個教育未來的這個帳戶這個條例其實當時的歷史背景是在104年的時候起心動念我算是主題人之一然後跟當時的衛福部相關的官員我相信現場應該還有人到現在都還在還沒有離開 對然後討論多久 討論足足是38個月"},{"start":3347.869,"end":3371.173,"text":"104年開始討論然後一直到107年的5月才三讀完成然後要照顧的對象當時羅列很清楚第一就是低收與中低收入戶還有長期安置超過兩年以上的這些我們要照顧的兒童及少年那你看我們針對這個部分就只有針對這個部分我們就討論足足38個月"},{"start":3377.062,"end":3381.848,"text":"那今天我們是要針對全國的兒童全國的兒少這樣的一個家庭"},{"start":3382.472,"end":3407.462,"text":"那絕對沒有辦法急救張的然後把這樣的法律就可以訂出來那相對的一樣道理我們現在要照顧全國的兒童的情況之下我們有現金的這個兒少的未來發展帳戶是針對我剛剛特別提到就是低收入戶中低收入還有殘疾安置的這樣的一個兒童的對象的時候那這部法律要怎麼處理"},{"start":3408.995,"end":3437.758,"text":"那我們新的國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提出來的版本有沒有把這一個部分攘換在這裡面我剛剛是稍微看一下因為法條我們這個法條沒有很多啦 坦白講應該是20多條並沒有去特別處理到這一塊那我們不可能去制定一個新的法律反而去造成讓台灣社會覺得這是一個階級法律這是一個歧視法律這是一個對立法律這是一個相對剝奪的法律"},{"start":3440.631,"end":3460.3,"text":"這個我想我們當國會議員的 我們很難承受這樣的事情所以在前幾天 不管什麼樣的法案在審查當有朋友在問 還是媒體在問 我都特別提到說我們做個國會議員 修一條法 或是修一本法律 修了後 不一定會萬事如風"},{"start":3462.554,"end":3472.078,"text":"那修一條去頂達就 死了啦 遺臭萬年啦大家記得說那時候人家修的啦 人家修到歷歷落落就對了就算又蓋過藥 我們也記得說中東市就什麼人家修不對的啦那名 英文的庫國內都可以查得到就馬上連結到那條法條"},{"start":3482.222,"end":3500.794,"text":"所以當我們要照顧全國的兒童過程裡面我覺得非常棒這方向很正確但是我們有既有的現有的法律在那個地方那我們現在法律沒有去處理既有的法律這個馬上就有階級的區分了這個馬上就有衝突矛盾"},{"start":3501.812,"end":3519.118,"text":"所以我在這邊也要請衛福部部長這邊還有相關全職的單位這事情要有相關的對岸也要有相關的一個思考那我們當然希望可以透過更多的這樣一個討論衛環委員會一直以來一直以來都不是上面的人在決定什麼事情"},{"start":3520.138,"end":3540.909,"text":"就可以讓我們未完委員會的意志去受到挑戰跟變動了所以我們都希望可以有更多充分討論的時間然後讓法律可以更加的精準化然後更加趨於這樣的我們追求的公平然後保障更多需要我們要保障的我們要保障台灣的未來我們要保障我們小朋友"},{"start":3541.569,"end":3564.821,"text":"可以受到更多這樣的照顧我們要保障我們的出生率可以突破這個不要成為世界島嶼第一名的情況之下我想這個充分討論絕對是有其必要所以在這邊臨陳可能再度建議我們召委今天這麼有心來把這樣的案排進去那也讓其他委員的版本可以進來然後也可以透過公聽會可以大家充分的表達相關的意見從很多的面向來討論甚至有剛剛特別提到兒少這個"},{"start":3570.284,"end":3586.33,"text":"執行多年的形式幼年兒少專戶的這個條例可以大家一併來共同來做對比然後相關的討論甚至達到融合的階段然後讓這些小朋友可以有更好的這樣的公平的制度來予以保障好 謝謝"},{"start":3587.731,"end":3607.708,"text":"謝謝劉建國召委那我還是補充說明一下我想大家今天來這裡都很緊張那很緊張我們的少子化沒有你先聽我講完都很緊張我們的少子化很緊張我們的貧富差距我們都想要一起面對來解決但是你們不用緊張我今天要送出委員會這樣可以嗎好好好謝謝就"},{"start":3613.84,"end":3619.64,"text":"好我們進行下一個環節現在請陳昭資委員代表說明提案要旨時間兩分鐘"},{"start":3625.219,"end":3642.583,"text":"主席不能只有兩分鐘主席各位同事還有各位美女朋友我代表國民黨黨團跟民眾黨團的共同提案來做出提案說明那台灣未來帳戶特別條例這個草案的核心原因當然是大家理解台灣正面臨全球總生育率第一名的這個嚴厲挑戰"},{"start":3644.684,"end":3646.706,"text":"這個倒數第一名的嚴厲挑戰少子化不單是人口問題而且它更是攸關產業的勞動力經濟成長還有社會穩定的一個國安問題我們必須誠實面對過去的政策都偏向即時津貼的補助"},{"start":3661.036,"end":3664.677,"text":"雖然能夠短期的止痛卻很難幫助孩子建立長期的資產的累積的軌道也沒有辦法讓年輕的家庭對孩子未來的教育 職癌與生活有穩定的期待所以這部法案是要把思維從福利"},{"start":3678.742,"end":3703.42,"text":"提升到投資下一代用制度化可持續的一個方式給孩子更公平的起跑點在制度設計方面本草案建立台灣未來帳戶制度政府在孩子出生的時候建立個人帳戶啟動經為開立後一第一年撥入五萬元那撥補款的部分是第二年到第十二歲為止每年撥入一萬元同時也鼓勵家庭自存"},{"start":3704.12,"end":3713.771,"text":"甚至是企業來共同參與家庭可以用孩子的名義自存企業雇主也可以用透過贊助款共同投入搭配這個稅賦的誘因讓國家家庭企業成為共同投資下一代的三支柱"},{"start":3720.439,"end":3723.681,"text":"那對象範圍本條例適用對象民定為102年9月2日以後出生未滿12歲在我國境內有住所並符合年度居住滿183天的國民讓政策資源有明確的範圍也能夠跟稅制還有居住認定接軌第三個是資金運用方面我們非常重視財務的這個穩健跟風險的內容我們民定基金的運用是以安全穩健為原則投資標的"},{"start":3750.799,"end":3770.168,"text":"限於國內股票及債券或合格受益憑證等並要求要有建立內控風險管理 績效評估跟資訊透明送立法院備查很重要的 張護資金在孩子滿18歲以前不得提前提領確保長期的複利效果"},{"start":3771.075,"end":3788.265,"text":"成年後清零也不是想花就花喔而是限定在就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款以及租屋費用等人生關鍵時段讓這一筆資源真正成為向上流動力量在執行面呢收支保管業務要委託"},{"start":3789.586,"end":3798.632,"text":"勞保局來辦理運用管理則是委託勞動基金運用局那必要時委託金融機構來經營降低另起爐灶的成本而且來承接大型基金長期管理的經驗為了保障參與者草案也明定基金監理會要成立由政府機關代表開戶人代表專家學者及相關團體代表來組成強化治理跟監督此外很重要的"},{"start":3820.047,"end":3835.42,"text":"帳戶的結餘金額不計入家庭總收入或財產也不得作為未來抵銷扣腰擔保或強制執行的標的避免孩子他的未來的資產被侵蝕要確保這個本制度的目的要落實"},{"start":3836.521,"end":3858.071,"text":"那財務規模方面本草案以13年為期所需經費上限為新台幣4500億以特別預算的方式來分期籌編審議要求行政院於這個條例生效後一個月內將特別預算案送到立法院來審議確保國會監督跟程序的正當少子女化的挑戰"},{"start":3858.991,"end":3872.598,"text":"不會因為一年一筆這個補助就消失了我們要的是一套讓孩子長大後真正用得到的制度文件投資長期累積用途明確監督完善這部台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案就是用制度化去資產的支持用來修補世代的這個"},{"start":3881.803,"end":3892.749,"text":"落差減輕育兒的負擔從孩子的出生那一刻開始我們一起就來投資國家未來的競爭力敬請各位同事給予支持謝謝謝謝陳昭之委員說明那接下來請衛福部時部長說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":3907.456,"end":3932.067,"text":"主席還有各位委員那麼面對我國少子女的嚴峻挑戰那麼行政院在107年合訂了這個我國少子女化對策計畫那麼以0到6歲國家一起養來結合各部會的資源推動了幼兒的全面照顧友善家庭的就業職場兒童健康"},{"start":3932.907,"end":3953.472,"text":"以保全域保護還有友善生養的相關配套是他對策那麼來減減輕了這個家庭的育兒負擔那麼包含了生育的補助包含了育兒托育的津貼那麼也包含了對於這個教育的補助等等"},{"start":3954.052,"end":3972.791,"text":"来减轻年轻父母的生养的经济负担一共从107年到114年间共编列了5931.18亿平均对每一个有0到6岁的家庭补助了120到180万不等"},{"start":3976.514,"end":3994.44,"text":"那麼至於呢在2017年開始呢那麼針對弱勢家庭的兒童則推出了兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶主要在幫助低收入戶中低收入戶的孩子以及有長期安置的兒少那麼以"},{"start":3995.661,"end":4012.155,"text":"這個共同存款的概念1比1的提撥為兒童及少年設立個人的專屬帳戶那麼在他年滿18歲的時候最高可存到54萬那麼這個政策8年多來已經累積開戶人數39000餘人那麼是適用對象的65%累積金額也已達32億那麼"},{"start":4021.283,"end":4036.559,"text":"面對少子女化所帶來的結構性的挑戰那麼今天大院提出了台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案那麼本部認為那麼所有的政策都是一個選擇"},{"start":4037.62,"end":4062.658,"text":"政策的關鍵在於資源怎麼用 先照顧誰需要思考規劃 除了對經濟弱勢的兒少我們應該優先來思考如何精進 更多的支持而對於一般兒少的支持 也必須考慮到整個制度的設計跟它的政策的效果"},{"start":4063.518,"end":4081.409,"text":"本部希望能夠秉持著全生命歷程 社會投資的視角從生育 從養育 從教育 從居住 從職場的支持等多方面來打造更友善的成家與育兒的環境"},{"start":4083.47,"end":4112.61,"text":"今年115年行政院也已經核定我國少子女化對策計畫2.0從鼓勵青年生育有感減輕育兒負擔友善職場的生生不息及支持婚姻家庭的穩定居住政策強化孕產婦兒童照護等也提出了新的行政措施也希望大院能夠支持審查預算讓我們能夠盡快的開始來推動"},{"start":4113.31,"end":4121.781,"text":"那麼以上就本次的這個條例的草案做以上的說明再請各位委員給予指教 謝謝"},{"start":4128.148,"end":4150.242,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做一下宣告本聯席會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘那10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":4152.563,"end":4158.265,"text":"那以往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言謝謝主席主席有請石部長請因為石部長他好久有另外有一個會議他有跟我們本席先請假他等一下那裡報告完會再回來所以您可能要這樣嗎"},{"start":4183.493,"end":4206.206,"text":"因為他有先跟本席辦公室說誰能代表呢次長 呂次長他不足代表重要的議題"},{"start":4212.546,"end":4221.996,"text":"那麼重要的議題不能部長不在來我們先休息10分鐘好了好不好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4247.056,"end":4265.658,"text":"還是你要換一下順序嗎這麼重要的質詢 這麼重要的議題他去行政院議員會報告他行政院 立法院是監督行政院的我們現在把他留住 為什麼留住"},{"start":4277.159,"end":4302.835,"text":"民進黨的立法 民進黨的立委議員不曉得在都會不會啊講話吧講自己的就好了要不要換一下因為他要換隊要與自由我老人跟你們看好不好我老 我跟你們看我跟你們講一齊的一齊的 會不會賠一賠啊因為我們憑規啊"},{"start":4320.659,"end":4342.685,"text":"那個沒什麼問題啦沒什麼問題啊那 重要 但是講實在話 他們一顆一顆都不肯講沒有 其他誰肯 行政院都不肯對啊 他們都不肯我們是監督單位那委員會開喔 讓你講 部長要留在這裡不能訪問人家是啊 因為他說春節要到 他要做這個"},{"start":4353.814,"end":4371.087,"text":"你們在現場擺一點調教就好"},{"start":4456.472,"end":4474.096,"text":"好那我們繼續開會那先請林德福委員詢答好謝謝謝謝主席呃是請到理事長還有呃護歲署啊宋署長有請理事長跟宋署長"},{"start":4477.485,"end":4501.187,"text":"委員早安 市長你好 委員早早早 我要講 因為少子化的問題我相信是 現在是 大家都很清楚那一年一年延減 而且很嚴重那我相信 台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案這個 要是說 以目前來看"},{"start":4502.807,"end":4513.544,"text":"除了可以減輕父母養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲這個青年有第一桶金來面對未來的挑戰能夠有更多元的選擇一舉兩得"},{"start":4517.543,"end":4534.768,"text":"用於未來反正是職業訓練進修創業等等我認為都應該是利益良善那包括我們現在美國英國加拿大新加坡他們也都有這些方案可以來供我們學習那個市長你認不認同"},{"start":4536.795,"end":4552.38,"text":"報告委員我想非常感佩委員對於這個問題的關心我想少子女化確實是現在我們的國安問題我們應該要來嚴肅面對我想我們都只要有好的政策我們都願意來聆聽認不認同報告委員因為"},{"start":4557.918,"end":4572.871,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到英國的例子英國在2005年開辦之後出現了一個問題2011年就停辦所以這裡面有兩個問題第一個就是說裁員必須要先確定我想這是一個有前軀之鑑"},{"start":4573.772,"end":4592.029,"text":"另外第二個就是說這裡面我們也不希望就是說倉促上路之後造成這一個保護這一個中斷像英國就是後來2011年中斷所以我想這個整個就是利益良善我想我們都樂見其成可是就是說相關的配套可能要更加小心其實"},{"start":4592.99,"end":4610.544,"text":"我认为说这个里面在修法内容里面还可以去调这个要是说我们整个国家像过去超增每一年都那么多而且几年下来一兆八千多亿所以说那时候这个在野党才要求说"},{"start":4611.385,"end":4631.245,"text":"每個人就是普發一萬那我認為說當然我後面還會再問到我認為說你認不認同這樣的做法嘛你不敢答還不敢答 照理講是你就不要承諾就由部長來就好啦 對不對"},{"start":4632.736,"end":4660.529,"text":"因為臺灣未來的整個帳戶特別條例草案要是順利的話當然希望能夠這個各界都來共襄盛舉引入更多的資源來這個臺灣未來帳戶的基金共同來照顧我們的下一代因為現在少子化很嚴重去年才出生率才十萬七千多人是沒錯今年會更少對不對那特別條例第26條有提到主管機關"},{"start":4661.69,"end":4687.658,"text":"得接受可以接受各界的捐款用於台灣未來賬戶基金甚至於就是專款專用那我請問那個宋署長如果一條例草案假設未來條文三讀通過台積電要是有捐款到台灣未來賬戶裡面我們不管說一千萬兩千萬一億兩億是否可以全額來抵稅可不可以"},{"start":4688.058,"end":4701.794,"text":"報告委員 如果這個基金本身是政府的專戶就相當於對政府捐贈這目前所設的36條規定他就可以全額列報捐贈費用捐贈多少就抵稅多少如果是對政府的話"},{"start":4702.975,"end":4731.577,"text":"当然就是这样子那这个底税有没有这个金额的上限如果对政府没有金额上限所以说这个就是很好的一个方式因为有很多甚至于这个连战他的夫人他说他要把他自己的财产全部都要捐出去他在生日的时候全部就这样宣布你说其实要捐的人还是很多啦"},{"start":4732.177,"end":4752.347,"text":"並不是沒有以這個勞保基金109到113年度近5年來整個平均的績效為例收益率平均差不多8.94%最新一次勞保基金績效的公告114年11月底收益率來達到13.41%此外還有114年11月底這個勞保基金這個"},{"start":4760.419,"end":4782.47,"text":"收益率也有13.697從上述這些資料來看政府基金投資報酬率平均都是6%以上似乎有很高機率可以達成那本席理解說整個投資當然有高有低景氣起起伏伏那我請問那個理事長"},{"start":4783.53,"end":4811.59,"text":"对于政府基金投资报酬率平均每年6%以上是不是可能的任务还是稳健操作都可以达到目标您的看法呢包委员当然就是陈主委员刚刚所说的这个投资都有风险高高低低最近当然台股当然容紧但是这个我们也不敢完全确保所以我想还是要从比较长期稳健的角度来思考"},{"start":4812.659,"end":4835.966,"text":"因此這個市長是依照特別條例草案計畫第一筆資金五萬元政府每年每人存一萬元到十二歲以百分之六報酬率來計算十八歲後預估整個資金將來可以到三十三點九萬那可用於這個青年的就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款等等"},{"start":4839.987,"end":4851.324,"text":"那我請問勞動部對於上述這個投資報酬估算是否會認為目標難以達成還是怎麼樣勞動部今天有沒有人來"},{"start":4861.719,"end":4880.97,"text":"主席 還有跟委員回答一下其實我們基金運用在投資上其實我們長期穩健的所以非常感謝委員剛剛對我們的肯定其實我們在長期的目標是有達到委員剛剛提到的有達到嘛 對啊要是照這樣操作其實也操作得很好可以肯定那要是有這樣的報酬我認為說其實"},{"start":4885.272,"end":4908.859,"text":"從過去幾年下來你們的整個基金的操作運作我認為都很好而且也受到我們很多勞工朋友的肯定對不對所以說整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案希望能透過專戶的設立來減輕整個父母的壓力投資我們的下一代與青年的未來以減緩子女"},{"start":4912.491,"end":4936.21,"text":"這個少子女化的整個情況那投資台灣未來的人才之培育如果開戶人喪失我國國籍那個次長開戶人喪失我國國籍本身認為自然不具有這個提領結親由國家補助啟動金來撥補款以及其他收益的資格你的看法呢"},{"start":4937.216,"end":4942.706,"text":"是 我那個也是尊重委員的一個意見我覺得這個尊重委員的意見 謝謝我認為你一點擔當都沒有"},{"start":4945.253,"end":4969.18,"text":"今天是這個案子過才有啊對不對 案子沒有過根本一點但我是認為你一個身為一個次長喔很多事情你竟然要承擔部長留下來給你來做詢答你就是本身要具有說我今天yes no分得很清楚然後這個案子過我們就照這樣做"},{"start":4970.2,"end":4996.901,"text":"这个才是担当嘛我们是针对问题探讨问题怎么去解决问题嘛对不对现在少子化的问题确实是存在啊没错不然的话怎么会提这个问题呢对不对提这个法案呢所以说本席认为如果开户人在未成年期间如果犯刑案刑事案件等等比如涉及杀人啦患毒啦诈欺啦性侵等等重大刑案制止"},{"start":4997.541,"end":5015.688,"text":"的後續也不應該享有政府補助的資源這樣你認不認同不認同還是不敢答我們認知到也尊重委員的意見對啦你什麼都不敢你等於是有跟沒有一樣好啦我就不問了啦謝謝非常感謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝林德福委員發言接下來請賴會員委員"},{"start":5031.525,"end":5041.424,"text":"好謝謝主席那個請次長李建德次長還有就是護稅署宋署長還有我們勞動部保險局那個白局長"},{"start":5043.894,"end":5060.553,"text":"三位早安我想我們今天針對的就是台灣未來賬戶的特別條例的草案大家共同來討論少子化是國家的一個危機這一點其實大家基本上都有共識了"},{"start":5061.474,"end":5081.706,"text":"可是當政府要花4500億的納稅來推動這個法案的時候我想我們必須要嚴肅的去檢驗這筆錢到底有沒有辦法解決少子化這筆錢是不是會是又是打造一個社會不公的一個溫床"},{"start":5082.366,"end":5098.538,"text":"你要知道有錢的人你請他儲蓄這個是一個好事沒有錢的人你讓他去儲蓄這是一個罪惡牛奶跟麵包是窮人最重要的一個生活上他的必需品"},{"start":5099.418,"end":5127.948,"text":"戶人要的不是只有牛奶麵包他要的是金幣是金幣所以我在這裡是不是先跟次長請教一下就是說在這個針對的就是未來帳戶的這個特別條例你制度的一個設計跟政策目標有沒有一致還有就是說這個長期累積下來的一個機制是不是可以及時回應這個少子化的一個挑戰來 那個次長你那個儘量唱首一言"},{"start":5128.488,"end":5147.229,"text":"非常感谢赖委员对于这个问题的关系非常佩服委员对这个问题的看法我想分三个部分第一个少子女化的成因我跟委员还有各位报告population studies这个是人口学第一集的2000年就有一篇非常重要的论文OECD国家18国他们发现"},{"start":5148.03,"end":5166.648,"text":"少子女化的一個解決對策是一個多元的一個策略跟多元的問題那麼在這裡面根據多元的問題多元的複雜成因所以要有一個整個相關的一個政策配套那這裡面大概有四個最重要的一個政策第一個應該是性別平等"},{"start":5167.028,"end":5191.829,"text":"第二個是家庭工作平等第三應該是有關於公托托育第四最後才是育兒津貼我想這個是一個多元的一個組合那這個也是我們少子女化計畫從107年開始到我們現在我們也已經提出一個2.0的計畫到大院我們的一個基本的精神我想大家都知道這個是一個複雜的問題所以我們也必須要有一個整個有效率的策略那但跟委員報告"},{"start":5192.85,"end":5204.722,"text":"但是在這樣的一個考量之下我恐怕必須要說我們現在目前所提出的這一個條例當然大家都希望能夠共同來解決少子女化的問題但是恐怕"},{"start":5206.605,"end":5225.155,"text":"恐怕會有偏食的問題會有偏食的問題林瑞琴委員剛剛也有提到就是說政策就是一個選擇你今天選擇A可能會排斥B如果今天我們有一個非常非常充足的財源那當然沒有問題那現在目前就是說你是獨孤一位有可能就排擠到我們現在目前現有的一個"},{"start":5227.477,"end":5251.234,"text":"公托的一个推动还有比如说相关的一个策略所以这恐怕是第二个问题第三个就沉入刚刚委员所说的其实对于我们现在目前很多很多育儿父母来说其实最重要事实上是面包跟牛奶你现在孩子你要先起来所以我们现在政府我们现在推设的基本上就是要想方设法来降低他们的负担我如果委员"},{"start":5251.554,"end":5266.065,"text":"那針對著延後幾戶在這一個行政上的一個設計我想聽聽衛福部的說法你認為說這個延後幾戶有機會提升那個現在的生意力的增加嗎多少貢獻"},{"start":5267.126,"end":5280.556,"text":"報告委員我是研究人口政策跟福利政策我跟委員報告我在目前國際的期刊我沒有看到一篇有關於這方面的研究當然就是說但是有關於儲蓄賬戶這個最主要是為了要減貧但是"},{"start":5287.341,"end":5313.158,"text":"你說用這些來提升生育率這個我是覺得恐怕不可以委員 容許我我想在這裡我們必須要去正視就是在網路上網路上有很多就是說比較針對的一個投資的網紅他有特別講到他竟然是講說不生小孩是存款的一個寬備不生小孩你的財富會更自由"},{"start":5314.699,"end":5337.271,"text":"很多的年輕人其實慢慢的會受影響說小孩子是一個護資產但回到根本生不生小孩對他們有什麼樣的一個好處我想這是一個很大的一個學問所以你又是這一方面的專家我們希望你可以提供更多的一個資訊給我們倒是我想問一下我們護稅署署長就是說"},{"start":5339.733,"end":5366.175,"text":"這個租稅的公平行政院是不是可以接受集平計戶的這樣的一個政策你年存10萬然後想那個綜合所得稅的扣除額他18歲提領了數百萬那可是對於窮人來講的話生活會他已經透支了他沒有辦法去儲蓄了他也更沒有辦法享受到這個節稅這個節稅的一個優惠那你提供中手稅那個"},{"start":5367.856,"end":5383.952,"text":"扣除扣除而來對弱勢家庭是不是有實際上的一個利益那如果你將高所得的享有較大福利的一個減稅的利益是不是會違反了租稅的公平我想站在護稅署的立場是不是可以跟我們做一個分析一下"},{"start":5384.452,"end":5412.151,"text":"報告委員 委員分析已經非常透徹但是我還是再補充一下就是說因為現在我們在看所得稅的扣除的時候一般是費用的部分那這是屬於存款一般存款跟我們所得課稅是沒有關係這可以觀察在我們所有的包含以前兒少賬戶的相關條例裡面也都沒有給扣除的優惠我們再去觀察美國跟英國他們所推出的這個賬戶"},{"start":5414.792,"end":5431.839,"text":"是沒有給扣除的優惠 都沒有我們非常確定為什麼因為他們觀察到就像委員所講現在有能力再拿錢出來儲蓄存到未來小孩子18歲又給小孩子用的人其實說真的對中低所得者來講是一件很困難的事情"},{"start":5432.539,"end":5455.572,"text":"非常非常困難所以到最後你每年10萬的限額其實當不獲利者會變得高所得者變得高所得者那我們現在44%的人是不用繳稅36%的人是繳5%所以對這些人來講你給他扣除的減稅率是非常低的是非常低的非常低到最後都是有錢人在減稅"},{"start":5456.613,"end":5477.648,"text":"所以所以署長我當我看到了這一個就是說那個未來帳戶的特別條例裡頭因為我們長期就是在財政委員會裡頭我也覺得說有點混亂掉了到底投資跟除息對這個少子化有多少深遠的影響當然我再請教你現行的徵刑稅跟那個免稅額度"},{"start":5478.729,"end":5508.113,"text":"是不是足夠來使用那家長將自有的一個那個款項存入了台灣的那個未來帳戶那如果他依遺產稅跟稅法第四條第二項的一個規定家長對於帳戶開戶人的正義跟現行的那個現行的那個正義那個納稅義務人每年得自徵跟總額中減免那個免稅額244萬這對一般的家庭是不是已經適用了"},{"start":5508.853,"end":5529.111,"text":"如果就是說提供的那個免稅增益額稅額的計算方式的話那這個有沒有矛盾是 報告委員像我們振宇學校每年都給244萬的免稅是一個人244萬所以一般我們現在觀察到的大部分的家庭真的都夠了"},{"start":5529.511,"end":5547.538,"text":"所以你現在變成說是高所得者他在贈餘給小孩的時候他才會碰到課稅的問題那你現在又跟他說不納入贈餘免稅額的計算等於額外給他更多的贈餘免稅那又是剛才就像我剛才講的委員剛才也有觀察到其實到最後還是對高採負責有利"},{"start":5547.998,"end":5563.366,"text":"是啊 是啊這個是不是對幫忙有錢的人就開了另外的一道門好 謝謝我想再簡單的再請教一下我們勞動部就是說在這裡有一個特別的議題要請教勞動部就是說"},{"start":5566.507,"end":5583.442,"text":"針對的這一份草案第三條跟第十四條允許企業贊助自家員工子女就是說階級化的一個延伸在我看來是這樣子如果就是說這個自家員工的子女這個會不會造成說父母親在哪邊上班"},{"start":5584.122,"end":5601.927,"text":"然後就決定這個孩子領了多少錢會不會讓我們覺得說企業的贊助有階級化的一個延伸那是不是會讓小孩子就是贏在起跑點上職業決定孩子的身價會不會有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":5603.539,"end":5618.31,"text":"是委員好委員所提的當然就整個制度設計的時候在主管機關衛福部這邊會做一個整體的考量那每一個相關的制度設計絕對在執行面上都會有一些相對應所反映出來的一個效果是啊沒有錯啊"},{"start":5618.67,"end":5639.181,"text":"我們台灣不是都只有台積電跟小積電其實我們台灣百工百業我們其他的傳產產業還是佔了八成以上那你想到了就是這些中小企業這些外送員這些基層的勞工他如果沒有企業的贊助的話他的孩子在這一個政策上他是被遺忘了是不是我可以這樣講沒錯"},{"start":5644.066,"end":5667.995,"text":"委員的確會有一些實務上面的反應 是啊好 那我想我們大家再努力啦 因為這是一個很好的一個那個草案那我們怎麼樣那個讓他透過不斷的一個討論可以讓他更周全 好 謝謝主席謝謝外匯委員 外匯會員委員發言 接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":5675.917,"end":5677.58,"text":"主席麻煩我們的主席總處的處長請處長 請許處長"},{"start":5691.601,"end":5713.241,"text":"那我今天針對國民黨提出的台灣未來帳戶的條例來詢問我很無奈因為這個法案有四個問題很明顯的是第一個不只是有違憲違法的風險還有財政紀律不足條例目標不清還會拉大貧富差距不過再怎麼無奈我還是要把話講清楚把責任問清楚"},{"start":5714.082,"end":5733.061,"text":"所以想請教主席總書這邊憲法第70條我們的預算法第91條對立法委員提出來的法律案大幅增加稅出的要求是不是講得很清楚第一個要先徵詢行政院的意見"},{"start":5733.641,"end":5746.112,"text":"第二個指明彌補資金的來源 第三個必要時修正其他法規的一個配套那以現在目前提出來的台灣未來帳戶的條例來看的話 請問有徵詢過行政院嗎"},{"start":5750.763,"end":5769.637,"text":"根本沒報告除了預算法第91條之外在財政紀律法還有還有財政收支劃分法第38條之一都有相同的規定那我先問就現在我剛講的那三個法律要件到底做到哪哪項哪幾項目前我們所知現在是都還沒有跟行政部門來"},{"start":5773.199,"end":5797.552,"text":"所以還不知道那個彌補資金的來源還有整個其他如果修正的話那個配套措施是什麼所以這個條例還規定說經費要優先移用前年度的稅計剩餘甚至舉借債務的資應請問主席總署這邊這個規定如果沒有跟行政院討論的話對我們的政府財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":5800.033,"end":5825.024,"text":"這裡面的總經費要達到4500億等同一年他就平均一年是要增加大概340幾億340幾億那我們現在的舉債空間算出來大概就只有1800多億在扣除國防扣除國防平均每年大概要1560億頂多只剩下大概300億的空間那我們每年的"},{"start":5826.405,"end":5851.226,"text":"科技還有公共建設還有我們依法律支出每年這些經費大概要成長5%那每年大概就要花到大約是1200多億所以每年的稅率的成長數大概用到這些就不夠了如果說要在這一筆下去的話那可能就需要排擠到我們其他的一個就是排擠到其他的政策"},{"start":5853.908,"end":5872.289,"text":"說明吧就是這個是一個選擇啦你選擇做這個你可能就會排擠到我們其他的支出以上所以我最後再確認一次如果這個條例沒有符合上述的法律要件如果今天假設真的諸條審查的話被強行通過最後三讀的話是不是又會出現有違法疑慮的條例"},{"start":5874.279,"end":5891.904,"text":"預算法跟財政紀律法有財政措施法法都很明確的規定那對於大筆的支出還需要先指名彌補的財源這一次的金額高達4500億元那目前也還沒有和行政部門來做一個溝通我覺得應該這個還是要謹慎"},{"start":5894.608,"end":5923.162,"text":"所以這就是我們擔心如果立法委員都覺得自己提的事實上是富國利民的法律案的話那我真的想問憲法跟預算法為什麼還要設這些規定各位那就不用啦為什麼不讓立法委員自己想加多少就加多少還要徵詢行政機關這跟財政紀律到底有什麼關係可是我們財政紀律法是講得非常的清楚所以我很擔心說如果有人現在甚至有沒有想法是說今天在這邊質詢一下就算徵詢行政院"},{"start":5923.982,"end":5952.277,"text":"接下來就要強強推上下那我就要請你回到財政紀律也回到我們的4-268號的解釋的原因要防止政府的預算突然膨脹的話那造成人民增加人民的負擔的話那就是要落實我們的責任政治所以請問主席總處你認為今天質詢完就可以增加預算了嗎要從預算編列落實到責任政治的話應該怎麼做"},{"start":5954.315,"end":5966.421,"text":"我們那個立法院具有預算的審議權但是預算的權是在行政院像類似這種金額非常龐大我們認為還是需要由行政部門來做一個審慎的評估"},{"start":5969.045,"end":5987.651,"text":"所以最後我大概也要再三強調 如果沒有妥善的規劃 真的事實上一個政策會變成是全民的災難 如果未來帳戶如果要最後要舉債來買單的話 這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢 這有多麼諷刺謝謝主席總說 請回 那接下來請衛福部的次長請女次長"},{"start":5994.281,"end":5997.365,"text":"次長 我們就來討論完善的規劃剛好在問經費預算有沒有違憲因為有時候除了經費預算的話應該更關鍵的是政策內容"},{"start":6005.618,"end":6028.704,"text":"我要先講清楚要解決重大議題不是不能花錢該花就花可是要先搞清楚這筆錢到底為什麼要編要解決什麼問題這個未來賬戶的法案說明五花八門引用各國的政策依照你現在看到的條例內容暗由立法說明你認為這到底是什麼樣的一個法案因為講了第一條就講了"},{"start":6029.184,"end":6045.873,"text":"大概五個目標那一個政策要解決五個目標只有一個帳戶裡面要能夠解決五個目標那你們過去掃紙花花一千多億從很辛苦的要做兒托生育補助還有教育的支持準攻非營利幼兒園"},{"start":6047.033,"end":6064.148,"text":"這些都要一一的來做推動甚至給我們的保姆的政策跟托嬰中心的準攻甚至普設托嬰中心還在做親子館這些事情所以不知道你覺得這法案到底要解決什麼問題還是能夠解決貧富差距跟培養人才"},{"start":6065.249,"end":6092.374,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見我先簡單說明一下我們在過去8年總共政府已經投入5931億已經投入將近快6000億這是第一點另外第二點我必須要在這邊說我想提出這一個特別條例我想當然我們大家都非常關心但是我們在立法的時候不能只談理想不談代價"},{"start":6094.357,"end":6113.746,"text":"不能只談理想不談代價那你覺得有沒有會影響到什麼因為這13年就要花到4033億喔只靠一個帳戶的政治操作政策操作的話可以一次滿足這麼多政策目標嗎那你們有沒有評估那我們的國民黨有沒有跟你們討論過"},{"start":6117.409,"end":6133.54,"text":"目前就是說以這個第一條的這個相關的這個五大目標這個是我在這邊的這一個過去的研究顯現大概基本上利益良善這一個理念也不錯但是恐怕方法會有誤導"},{"start":6134.381,"end":6155.521,"text":"也會有問題這裡面簡單來說這個目標很好但是呢這裡面的這個策略跟方法恐怕不僅為蒙其利反受其害剛剛也說了就是說在這裡面本來要解決現在當期兒童的問題最後可能會載留子孫而且會複製現有的一個整個階級的不平衡"},{"start":6156.121,"end":6179.513,"text":"最後的結果恐怕要勝思啦而且根本恐怕是沒辦法解決目前現有的少子女化問題因為釐清這件事情非常重要這牽扯到後面政策規劃要怎麼定成效怎麼檢驗這麼龐大的預算會不會排擠到我非常關心的像托育教育尤其我至為關心的社福的資源為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":6181.414,"end":6198.459,"text":"不要沒有看見差異跟弱勢最後就是變成是排評跟擴大貧富差距因為我們在很多政策都看到同一件事情只要不是專門鎖定弱勢最後就會出現參與落差低收入家庭參與的"},{"start":6199.339,"end":6213.53,"text":"会变成比较少拿的也比较少资源有限的时候就本来就应该优先照顾卧室没错没错可是这个条例看不到那个差异化的一个设计我也看不出来它到底要怎么如条文所说的去解决贫富差距"},{"start":6214.645,"end":6242.456,"text":"所以很現實的我們來講那個現實就好就教育發展帳戶的經驗很清楚低收入中低收入家庭常常入不敷出最大問題他就是沒辦法開發穩定的來做存錢所以我就直接問如果中低收入家庭連條件相對優渥的教育發展帳戶都難穩定繳存的話那他們還有餘率去繳這個未來帳戶嗎反而如果通過的話從社會公平正義的角度上來看你怎麼看這兩個帳戶的關係"},{"start":6243.897,"end":6261.554,"text":"是 包委員 陳儒綱委員剛剛所說的其實對於我們很多很多那個低所得者趁這些都不夠 不可能再去拔光所以就是因為這樣 所以我們才來弄這個條例我們讓他一比一的這一個部分另外剛剛陳儒綱 賴委員剛剛也有提到"},{"start":6262.395,"end":6291.968,"text":"我們不是只有台積電還有高科技我們也有很多港口人外送員還有中小企業這是我們每次要去照顧的你這樣是不是會造成我們現有的就是你的爸媽因為在台積電或者說在這個高所得那你現在就可以來有這個Machine Fund還有國家還要給你這個開戶金我是覺得恐怕會有複製現在目前現有的貧富差距不僅沒有解決反而擴大了"},{"start":6292.128,"end":6310.885,"text":"所以真的要慎重所以我也一直在關心現有的兒童及少年未來教育跟發展帳戶能不能讓更多真正需要的孩子被納進來得到更多支持沒錯可是現在看到這帳戶的資格是跟著社會救助法走我從年初就一直找衛福部跟民團談那個社會救助法"},{"start":6311.505,"end":6337.943,"text":"那我就直接問次長我前兩個月代理我們的主持未還委員會考察社會救助跟貧窮的時候團體就很清楚指出虛擬所收入把人卡在門外民間也倡議要用自述所得來補漏洞你們12月29號次長你自己也跟團體開過會可是還是卡在此題所以你們現在願不願意改還是你們有沒有具體的做法要調整"},{"start":6338.503,"end":6360.552,"text":"家庭收入的计算方式把净贫但真正有需求的家庭纳进来让真正的发展账户可以保护到更多需要的儿少非常感谢委员这个问题这个命题大概有两个部分第一个我先跟委员报告我们现在目前现有的台湾的社会救助其实从广义来说不是只有低收中低收其实还包括八大津贴"},{"start":6361.601,"end":6381.398,"text":"那如果把低收中低收當然是2.15但是如果把八大津貼算進來我跟委員報告我們事實上是cover了8.6%所以我們現在目前如果從這個廣義的部分比如說未來我只是說假設未來我們可以把這一個就是牛領津貼的我們或許也可以來納入考量這是第一點另外第二點"},{"start":6381.918,"end":6402.765,"text":"剛剛委員也垂行到就是有關於社會救助法的這一個部分自訴所得我跟委員報告我們現在目前都在進行相關的一個研擬但是我也跟委員報告現在就是說我們反正我們現在目前會朝一個大概什麼時候會好因為已經很多次因為我從我們一進來就一直認為社會救助法應該是優先法案真的要幫助弱勢"},{"start":6403.985,"end":6426.27,"text":"不能讓弱勢在空等我覺得時間真的是不等小孩所以孩子都長大了結果他還是弱勢在貧窮線那邊所以希望你們可以盡速當然我也覺得說今天真的要好好談未來帳戶的議題因為少子女不是單一原因造成的要解決就要多管齊下也要請你們也是好好去思考這件事情"},{"start":6426.77,"end":6443.837,"text":"還有把一千億集中在未來帳戶這一個工具我看不出來這是會是怎麼樣一個有效的方法可能你們是不是也要朝向是說整個的未來教育跟發展帳戶可以怎麼去思考擴大我們的需求讓弱勢的孩子獲得照顧"},{"start":6444.437,"end":6457.646,"text":"是 幫委員 那個其實 卓院長其實也在元旦那邊他有一個 有一個才事就是我們會操擴大的這一個那個弱勢優先的原則來推動 謝謝好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝我們的次長是 感謝佑勤委員 謝謝好 請盧縣議委員詢答主席 佑勤衛福部次長前旅次長"},{"start":6476.942,"end":6496.04,"text":"委员好市长好针对今天的议题之前我先询问一些有关我们原乡的议题最近天冷常常发生一些就是说在办活动的时候就有一些本来是很健康的长者就在中途之间倒下那会发现说可能AED的设置"},{"start":6496.781,"end":6526.17,"text":"不是很普遍第二個就是說我們的急救的時間因為他可能距離太遙遠所以可能就近的醫療院所沒有這方面相關的所以我有個建議就是說是不是可以盤點我們AED的數量尤其是特偏地區然後特偏地區的診所如果說他有去上ACLS或者是說他有相關的一些急救的一個證照的話是不是在他試做這些急救的時候可以在他的健保的一個申請申付上面可以有一個加成"},{"start":6526.89,"end":6555.858,"text":"也就是說常常有一些衛生所跟我講說有的人可能會離職或者是退休結果他們在等待醫師的一個補缺的時候常常會等到一年甚至有超過一年的所以是不是也可以請衛福部這邊盤點我們因為我們偏鄉地區衛生所基本上就是我們族人在就醫的一個解決他就醫的一個需求所以這方面的人力我覺得應該要嚴格把關甚至應該不能讓他出缺超過半年以上還在等"},{"start":6556.758,"end":6576.18,"text":"所以造成我們原鄉的族人都在等待醫師或者是說因為他的門診時間的不確定性所以他不知道什麼時候應該去看還要先打電話或者是他已經租車去那裡結果沒有醫師要等待所以這個部分是不是希望衛福部這邊能夠可以去盤點一下第三個就是毒蛇血清的問題"},{"start":6577.021,"end":6598.102,"text":"我上次有提过可是后来还是有发生就是说我上次有说过就临近我们族人居住的一些医院或者是医疗院所可以优先提供我们的毒舌血清不然他们比如说不小心被咬到结果送到那家医院的时候医院就说这边没有麻烦再转送到大院那时效性跟那个"},{"start":6599.103,"end":6614.635,"text":"觀感因為病人需要馬上被處理他就覺得說怎麼到了醫院還是沒有這方面的一個服務所以我希望說你們就盤點我們尤其是屏東縣的延山公路是到恆春半島比較靠近族人多的地方附近的醫院就應該要有可以嗎"},{"start":6616.477,"end":6634.153,"text":"非常感謝盧委員長久以來對於我們原鄉的這一個醫療的關心盧委員你是原名良醫那我想委員剛剛所提到的幾個部分包括像AED還有像衛生所我想相關的人力的部分我覺得這個都確實非常重要也確實"},{"start":6635.334,"end":6658.204,"text":"我之前有有衛環委員會也有跟也有陪同委員到原鄉去做相關的考察確實衛生所真的就是我們在原鄉這邊非常重要的一個醫療的一個重鎮那我想這邊我會帶回去請跟部長報告來我們來加速剛剛委員剛剛所建議的相關的幾個重要的一個措施"},{"start":6659.045,"end":6671.999,"text":"今天的議題就是說我們之前有看到你的報告優先照顧弱勢但現行的戰後開戶率只有65%那剩下的3.5成約2萬名最窮的孩子你可以做一些解釋嗎報告委員"},{"start":6673.581,"end":6692.84,"text":"其实就国际比较来说我们66%其实我跟委员报告其实算还可以但我还有精进的空间这里面可能有一个关键就是我们有分析这里面主要是低收也有中低收那对于中低收的民众他的开户比率相对比较高"},{"start":6694.942,"end":6717.515,"text":"這個可以理解因為他的所得income來說會比較可以有能力對於低收的部分這部分可能是我們下一個階段必須要趕快來解決這裡面我們可能會給他研究這對一個問題就是說可能是不是現行的制度是採取申請制不像現在我們的版本他是主動給予你覺得這個部分是不是可以去討論"},{"start":6718.816,"end":6740.423,"text":"這邊我是不是也請市長也來跟委員回報一下跟委員報告我們也就是對於沒有辦法繳錢的這個家戶我們會由社工人員進一步的了解他的一些困難等等那據我們所知比較主要的原因還是他們在經濟上是比較不穩定"},{"start":6740.823,"end":6754.462,"text":"對 那我說這因為你現在有剩下3.5成的小朋友沒有參與你們的那個解決方法是什麼有嗎 有在想辦法經濟上的問題應該是最主要的一個因素好 那我們看下一個"},{"start":6756.866,"end":6771.125,"text":"就是说现在的我们的台湾的未来账户我看到第七条是说办理台湾未来账户的相关工作经费来源是来自我们的那个特别预算吗可以请劳动部这边来回答吗劳动部谢谢"},{"start":6780.438,"end":6792.313,"text":"我們是明訂編列四千五百億的特別預算權 明確排除預算法第二三條不得不得不得衝經常支出的限制這些八八委員"},{"start":6794.352,"end":6817.035,"text":"有關於目前我們勞動部這邊在相關的一個不管是農退或者是勞動我們的一個勞退制度上面的一個設計有勞保局這邊來做收支保管那基金運用局這邊來做投資運用那相關在制度的執行過程中都需要相關的人力配套以及相關的經費還有我們在任何一個制度開發的任何一個制度要建置之前"},{"start":6817.415,"end":6835.689,"text":"我們都有相當時間的一個資訊建置期間那我們在相關的報告裡面有提到說相關的人力部分因為以目前我們的內部業務現在所做的跟今天在談的一個帳戶帳戶是一個全新的帳戶管理那這部分我們現行的業務上面並沒有相關的一個經驗所以這部分必須要做相關的一個盤點"},{"start":6836.73,"end":6863.877,"text":"好 謝謝那再請衛福部次長那就針對我們看的一些經驗來看那就是英國的那個失敗的案例沒錯那就失敗的案例2005年到2011年他其實我覺得我在看了以後他的最主要的應該是溝通的失敗吧或者是說家屬就是家長的參與參與度沒有很高或者說他根本就不知道有這些帳戶所以應該不是我覺得應該不是基金的"},{"start":6864.717,"end":6888.203,"text":"所謂的錢的規模或者是說剛才所講的那些行政的這些繁瑣或者是流程常常都是因為lack of communication或是awareness其實是占了絕大部分所以如果說我們針對這次如果國中兩黨的版本通過或者是加上以後我們公聽會有執政黨的版本的話我是不是要著重在這方面這幾個缺失比如說家長的參與度"},{"start":6889.423,"end":6918.325,"text":"然后你把这些或者是说对这项政策的一个认知或者是说你对这个整件事情的一个知道的一个程度知情嘛那还有一个就是说政府跟我们儿少的一些家庭的一些沟通的能力所以我觉得如果这件事情要成功的话应该是要我们借尽英国的这些失败的一个原因然后把它补正然后当然它有一个"},{"start":6919.105,"end":6943.801,"text":"现在的做法就是说他们可能政府的投入的资金已经变成像是领现在叫GISA所以政府的角度可能是站在一个监督或者是说一个平台而不是在一个他的所谓的把所有的很多的资金放在那里面所以他才会有一个成功的面向是不是这些都可以来讨论"},{"start":6944.481,"end":6958.577,"text":"幫委員三個重點第一個我所看過的paper英國的案例其實最重要事實上是因為2008年金融危機所以政府裁員無以為繼所導致的這是第一點另外第二點正因為裁員沒有辦法確定所以這個"},{"start":6959.798,"end":6979.532,"text":"如果蓋起來如果蓋到一半變成爛尾樓這個我想可能就會導致您剛剛所說的只有現有那些繼續繼續繳然後變成是一個死錢在那邊政府就沒辦法所以我想這個會影響到很多很多的很多家的這個家庭所以我想這個必須要謹慎為之最重要的我想剛剛主計主計書這邊有說明裁員必須"},{"start":6982.334,"end":7008.694,"text":"就是说你要编预算91条的规定就是你要寻找有裁员我想这个才是对于民众最大的权益保障对 那么还是希望朝野能够有一个努力的方向然后希望把这些事情做好 谢谢好 非常感谢卢委员 谢谢好 谢谢卢宪逸委员发言接下来请郭国文委员发言"},{"start":7017.664,"end":7019.066,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長請呂次長"},{"start":7026.062,"end":7049.027,"text":"郭委員好次長我想今天藍白提出的版本未來帳戶的內容當中我不曉得部長有沒有仔細去跟他了解看過條文內容包圍有有條文內容當中你有沒有看到他第三條當中把金額的部分定義在多少多少我老實說就條文的內容我第一個是覺得奇怪是把金額放在這個定義當中"},{"start":7050.387,"end":7068.934,"text":"另外一個部分定義跟定義之間還有一個矛盾的地方也就是第三條的部分它限定自存自困款每年10萬 企業5萬然後到第12條的時候又規定主管機關每年公告調整金額到底是10萬為受限還是主管機關可以調整這又是矛盾的地方是的 沒錯"},{"start":7069.514,"end":7086.94,"text":"然後第三個部分呢在他第18條的部分的說明當中內容當中其實我看得出來藍杯版本是copy這個川普的版本的內容川普的版本內容就所謂的合格投資標的而合格投資標的是什麼也不清楚"},{"start":7087.82,"end":7109.575,"text":"美國的合格投資標的標準跟台灣會相同嗎這是第三個矛盾的地方第四個矛盾的地方是基金費用的部分不得高於0.1%就實務上來說台灣沒有任何一個基金ETF基金代鈔的費用是在0.1%的市場上不可能"},{"start":7110.476,"end":7129.939,"text":"市場上甚至有高達1%的當然 越低當然是越好但事實上是不符合現實因為美國的整個資本市場很大數十兆美金跟台灣的整個資本市場的規模又不同所以說就版本內容當中藍白確實有許多令人訝異的地方"},{"start":7130.8,"end":7157.665,"text":"但是我也必須說藍白的這個內容當中我們不要全然的否定因為它相對於衛福部現在的版本當中它把儲蓄擴充到投資把存量擴充到流量我覺得為什麼會有這樣的概念的出來也就是說既有的兒少帳戶當中有它的限制的所在一來對象的限制二來整個資金的運用的限制"},{"start":7159.185,"end":7179.57,"text":"第三呢 是不是能夠保底的限制如果我初估衛福部的這個版本內容當中你們夯不夯當以18那每個月最高金額你們有三種金額1250來計算的話也不過拿到5418年後的54萬是算什麼我想加上CPI的部分大家都非常清楚恐怕相對的貶值的不少"},{"start":7180.39,"end":7205.982,"text":"那衛福部站在整個部本位的角度當中會思考就是說我要濟貧我要針對弱勢兒童我當然可以理解但是我們今天的整個法案的出發點是從一個少子化的一個問題來做出發少子化的問題就不再把過去養育養兒育女的責任視為家庭的責任的情況底下變成養兒育女的責任國家也有責任"},{"start":7206.802,"end":7228.095,"text":"否則的話就不會像衛福部所提的107年到114年你投入了5900多億的原因就在這邊就國家也有責任只是說藍白的版本中比較不負責任的部分就不願意讓家庭負責任卻讓國家負擔了過多的責任也就是這個財責的部分讓國家負擔過多"},{"start":7229.836,"end":7246.187,"text":"這其實是不一定是好的事情也就是比例拿捏的部分去思考說國家跟政府國家跟家庭之間要如何去分擔這個共同的責任這我是同意的但是偏重於哪一方這可能要好好的拿捏跟取捨同樣的道理"},{"start":7247.187,"end":7263.017,"text":"這個少子化的問題也不應該偏重個別的一個部會譬如講偏重在衛福部我覺得沒有道理啊從國發會高度的角度高福祖耳在這邊啊金管會的角色我認為就應該要提升嘛就應該要提升嘛所以其實衛福部其實啊不用故步自封"},{"start":7264.045,"end":7282.952,"text":"你是不是可以開創一個比較open的一個態度出來就是說你應該去思考如何將既有的這個儲蓄老實講儲蓄的薪金要怎麼變多錢這是重要的嘛那你如果是擔心說投資有風險那如果這樣子勞動基金用錢就可以撤掉啦對不對"},{"start":7283.872,"end":7309.226,"text":"投資當然有風險啊勞動基金以前的成效歷史的經驗市場的法則我們都可以判斷出來嘛所以既然是這樣子我們就大膽的把這個儲蓄開放成投資的一個概念嘛那也不要侷限於本部的概念針對弱勢兒童而已嘛弱勢兒童要處理很簡單嘛本席就提出一個版本弱勢家庭由政府權而補助就是保弱勢的方式嘛"},{"start":7310.146,"end":7334.032,"text":"你就用這種條款就處理掉啦你就說一般的家庭他可能提薄一千二弱勢的家庭就是兩千四這就保弱勢不排戶然後照顧全民的兒童全部的兒童不要分階級這樣的情況底下才能真正全面性的去照顧所謂的這個少子化的一個問題啊"},{"start":7335.799,"end":7349.967,"text":"如果說國家的資源投入沒有幫助的話世界上沒有任何一個報告這樣寫我們就不願意做的話那相對的邏輯國家資源投入六千億那會有什麼幫助呢難道還要再寫一份報告來思考嗎"},{"start":7350.968,"end":7366.425,"text":"然後我們只要投放到10歲之後到12歲他要使用的話我們也部分提波限制他的使用用途那18歲之後結清賬戶鼓勵投資的方式來做思考如果要限制用途當然也OK"},{"start":7367.793,"end":7384.313,"text":"那管理很簡單啦 管理不用衛福部啦管理只要用金管會的角度來做思考因為成立委員會在金管會這種事情啊 老實講啊非常簡單啦以前的TISA就是一個管理委員會的概念嘛"},{"start":7385.154,"end":7413.532,"text":"什麼投資標的是適合的反向ETF不適合槓桿操作過大的不適合我們都應該把它排除有一個委員會在審查這適當的一個標的那另外更重要的就是剛剛我提到了要有一個保本的概念本期提出了一個保本的概念不同於過去兩年的一個定期的一個利率應該再加上CPI的這個年增率通膨的年增率這可能確定保本"},{"start":7414.512,"end":7443.718,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話一年的經費啊也不會像藍白的版本高達1423概估上是如此本期概估上大概279億啊如果是用這種方式來做兼顧一來從儲蓄到投資兩種功能兼具也就是成立一個台灣兒少這個除頭投除這一個專戶的概念的話這個部長 次長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":7444.691,"end":7470.981,"text":"包委員我覺得我們確實今天也是來聆聽委員以及各方的意見只要對於民眾有利我想我們都願意來仔細聆聽 委員也是確實在這個部分我想這個非常欽佩剛剛也點出很多就是相關的問題但是最重要現在我知道委員現在目前三個重點第一個我們現在目前就是從存量到流量第二個從儲蓄到投資 第三個所得上面"},{"start":7471.961,"end":7491.457,"text":"我們的對象上面也來擴充我想只要是對民眾有利我想我們都願意來擴充之外還有保底然後一部分的限制用途的考量也就是說我會鼓勵衛福部還有或金管會或國安會站在一個國家的高度當中提出相對的版本"},{"start":7493.118,"end":7508.425,"text":"提出一個相對的版本來跟藍白對話當然我也鼓勵藍白應該有相對的雅量等到行政院版本出來本席的版本也在連署當中既然是公共政策我相信召委會這種態度不會討論各一的版本而已"},{"start":7509.025,"end":7528.657,"text":"我們希望尋求更多的一個共識然後凝聚更好的一個制度能夠化解台灣目前國安的危機來面對這個少子化的問題問題非常的多包括這個呢兒童的部分我本來是用一個當大人ETF的概念它以後可以衍生衍生變成是兒童版TISA的概念"},{"start":7529.577,"end":7543.944,"text":"其實概念當中過往免稅的部分當然我們的護稅署是護稅第一是保護的護這個護稅署一向都是聽到稅就不想要任何的動護稅署署長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":7544.824,"end":7567.412,"text":"你剛剛講說美國那個訊息你可能要去調整一下可能不是你說的這樣子但是你不如想想日本的這個NISA的部分它的免稅額度NISA 2.0到現在還高達一升當中300萬我們是不是要思考一下兒童的部分把它做放到100萬來思考"},{"start":7570.733,"end":7597.384,"text":"來突破來作為化解台灣少子化危機上的一個租稅工具的一個調整有沒有可能報告委員不管是美國或是英國現在所謂這個兒少專戶的一些相關設計剛才委員提到日本的NISA賬戶他們都是沒有所謂的租就是他們在提撥的時候是沒有租稅優惠他們是指那個所得那個本文"},{"start":7598.084,"end":7615.425,"text":"那個委員概帖是本金所產生的利息跟資息可以免但不是說它在前頭提撥的時候可以扣除不是前頭提撥是總Totally對沒有錯累積的是累積的概念沒有錯我是累積的概念你至少在這部分把它化解掉"},{"start":7616.306,"end":7636.454,"text":"化解掉的話會鼓勵大家願意來投入這個賬戶這樣的情況底下我跟藍白之間版本不一樣他是全部幾乎把責任歸附的國家那我們的部分呢是相對的是說當我政府要相對提撥的時候你的自存戶你要先有作為嘛你自存戶先提的時候我再提嘛這財政負擔"},{"start":7637.955,"end":7662.263,"text":"我相信就會少了很多啦那國家的責任也會有但是國家跟家庭共同來面對這個少子化的問題我也希望這複稅署能夠開放心胸我們思考更好的制度好不好謝謝我們都會配合會配合太好了會配合那也請那個次長次長是少子化的專家啦他剛剛說他是少子化的專家就麻煩一下好好研究一下謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7663.732,"end":7679.683,"text":"好謝謝郭國文委員發言接下來請黃珊珊委員發言謝謝主席我請那個衛福部次長請呂次長"},{"start":7684.142,"end":7701.205,"text":"黃委員好我想國安問題除了今天的這個少子化未來賬戶的問題其實還有所謂的我們的老年長照問題那我想先討論一下國發會目前的人口推估我們除了進入所謂的超高齡社會"},{"start":7702.086,"end":7721.033,"text":"然後我們對於所謂的內政部統計一個人的家庭一個人的家庭佔了332萬戶也就是說全台的戶數36%都是一個人一個人顯然這個單身不是少數而是社會結構的其中一個非常重要的比例"},{"start":7722.654,"end":7741.541,"text":"那單身獨居當然很健康快樂但是現在的問題是孤獨死亡成為社會中一個最嚴重的問題孤獨死亡在日本跟韓國已經列為所謂的國安問題甚至有專門的立法來做處理我想問一下衛福部對於孤獨死亡"},{"start":7742.796,"end":7769.558,"text":"台灣民眾黨在去年10月不對2024年10月就已經提案了這一年多衛福部對於孤獨死亡有什麼進展有什麼樣的新的想法OK 非常感謝委員長期以來對這個問題的關心那我跟委員回報現在目前就也非常感謝大院的一個支持我們現在目前已經通過這個任性條例編了一個預算嘛62億那62億我們預計這個最有趣的我就現在想問一下次長是"},{"start":7770.479,"end":7791.811,"text":"我們內政部推估孤獨的人有67萬人衛福部推估的有39萬人可是地方政府列冊關懷的只有5萬人你現在變了60多億要花兩年的時間完成獨居老人的調查請問這幾年到底發生什麼問題內政部衛福部地方列冊管理完全不一樣人數不一樣一個67萬一個39萬一個5萬是很離譜啊"},{"start":7798.534,"end":7823.453,"text":"你現在在花60幾億去查你要告訴我這發生什麼問題現在目前其實最重要事實上是我問兩個簡單回答第一個事實上統計口徑的問題統計不一樣統計方法不同我們要注意其實對衛福部而言我們最關切的問題是獨居且需關懷是所以剛剛委員剛剛所說的就是那個5萬我承認那地方列管只有5萬跟你們衛福部評估39萬還是差了30幾萬"},{"start":7826.875,"end":7846.846,"text":"正因為這樣所以我們必須要趕快來做所以我們要重新調查是就這幾年的工作都白做了嘛我要問的是接下來不是只有調查對而是讓他們怎麼樣成為這個社會被關懷的對象沒錯很多人在家裡過世了沒有人知道而且親朋好友去敲門才知道沒錯"},{"start":7847.466,"end":7859.008,"text":"甚至他跟家人不聯絡甚至沒有上班的同事關心這才是今天台灣社會很大的問題就是說我們幾乎沒有這樣子的緊急聯絡人所以我們很多也學習了您的一個在台北的這個經驗所以我們在這邊會來老人就是如果真的需要關懷的話我們會有每天的送餐還有現在最重要就是學習您的經驗我們來設立這一個整個緊急求救裝置"},{"start":7876.131,"end":7902.987,"text":"這叫做社會安全網的一環只是社會安全網比較著重在於所謂的那些有問題的家庭但是其實孤獨死亡才是新的社會問題那另外一個就是我們看到中國大陸他推出一款APP叫做死了嗎也就是設定緊急聯絡人電子信箱如果你沒有上傳APP的話就會通知你的緊急聯絡人這個APP在中國大陸是下載第一名"},{"start":7904.068,"end":7919.366,"text":"也就是說如果我們政府要花六十幾億去做這個那是不是也弄一個相關的APP可以讓我們跟自己的緊急人員保持主動的聯絡現在的網路這麼發達如果你有花六十幾億去清查你還不如花六十幾億花一點點錢去做一個APP讓大家可以通報"},{"start":7921.849,"end":7945.705,"text":"包委員 我想您在台北市 但是副市長您也知道就是說這個重點並不是偵測的問題現在最重要的是它偵測到之後你要有人去檢測你後面要檢得起來 要接得住嘛但是現在這個APP就是通知它的緊急聯絡人總有一個人會去看它現在是沒人去看它 沒人知道它沒錯 所以我們在這裡面會補助地方政府他們成立Core Center"},{"start":7946.665,"end":7975.496,"text":"所以接下去要做的是我希望衛福部有個具體的甚至我認為我們應該列一個所謂的專門的法律來做相關的處理它已經成為少子化之外的國家重要的安全問題現在孤獨死亡不是只有老人喔四五十歲中年很多甚至有年輕人在家裡猝死的然後沒有人知道的其實孤獨死亡它是一個整體國家安全接不接得住的問題衛福部責無旁貸好嗎 這是第一塊"},{"start":7975.996,"end":8000.467,"text":"包委員這個應該是全那個各部會啦 大家共同來利益所以我不希望說再發生內政部講一種數字衛福部講一種數字然後地方政府列管另外一個完全不一樣的數字列管完成 但是沒人去接 列管只是列管好嗎 接下去我想問一下有關所謂未來章 我看到反正大家都認為說這是一件重要的事情 而是一件正確的事情衛福部自己的態度跟立場呢"},{"start":8001.226,"end":8020.938,"text":"包委員我們今天就是部長一開始也說我們就是來虛心來聆聽各方的意見這大概是全世界都一樣的問題不是只有台灣第二個就是這個部分大家說有錢沒錢但是受惠於AI高科技相關的出口中央銀行剛剛上修了114年的經濟成長到7.3%"},{"start":8024.46,"end":8036.732,"text":"然後我們今年預估今年的成長率到3.67其實編列預算的時候這些都沒有在裡面接下去其實不要再說政府沒錢政府要賺錢很容易時間暫停我請國發會請國發會"},{"start":8045.038,"end":8068.757,"text":"副主委我們的賴總統在去年五月說滿週年的時候他說要做國家主權基金然後我們跟美國的談判到現在還是空轉20%加恩還是沒有進展日本跟韓國都被川普要求投資三千億四千億的美金然後我們的國發會針對所謂的剛剛講不管是做什麼事情都需要錢"},{"start":8069.818,"end":8087.669,"text":"那我們當時賴總統說要去做主權基金幫國家賺錢這件事情進展到底怎麼樣我到現在沒有看到任何的進展我想這個主權基金我在院裡面還在各部門的研議當中要不要做還在規劃當中要做還是不要做"},{"start":8088.449,"end":8101.033,"text":"還沒有做最後的決定沒做決定但是總統先宣誓了總統宣誓之前都沒有演繹跟委員報告一下因為主權基金涉及的相關的議題相當的複雜"},{"start":8103.474,"end":8127.639,"text":"但是總統提宣是一年了而且其實我們希望朝野有共識所以我們現在基本上在收集朝野之間對於台灣設立主權基金相關的意見這件事情全世界也是一樣大家都朝這個方向在走只是制度上面要怎麼做可以多多參考各國的狀況但是不要總統說了之後一年還是樓梯都沒有響"},{"start":8129.036,"end":8150.235,"text":"連樓梯都沒有想 更不要說人下來了對 基本上總統也是希望我們多多看看我的意思是說應該是國發會研議出來之後總統才對外宣示而不是總統宣示完一年之後我們在立法院問你的答案還是今天這樣空洞這不是這個國家很奇怪的地方我先宣示了 然後我不做然後你們還在研議然後最後告訴我說我不知道要不要做"},{"start":8151.135,"end":8170.088,"text":"要做就做什麼時候做而已現在是你連說做都不知道是不是應該是說我們有這樣的規劃可是我想任何的規劃事實上都要有朝野就是我們要去都要有朝野共識那就不要隨便亂說第二個我想問那現在我們跟美國的關稅談判20加N到底談完了沒什麼時候會有一個初步的結果能夠跟其他國家做一個比照嗎"},{"start":8180.935,"end":8204.259,"text":"現在有結果了嗎我想其實那個OTM已經有對外說明我們現在已經到最後所以沒有新的狀況我們已經說我們在最後階段已經快三個月了是因為有時候雙邊的談判不是我方可以到現在都沒有任何的進展我想應該是有我們我想立法院都非常體諒行政院我們知道談判是困難的但是"},{"start":8205.66,"end":8233.837,"text":"說一直在談談到現在還沒有結果都已經年底了然後都已經跟日本韓國差了好幾個月了不應該再這樣拖下去同樣的剛剛講如果我們真的是要做這麼多國家安全包括人口老人年輕人未來賬戶這些事情需要更多的所謂的國家預算主權基金是一個很重要的裁員來源這個可能也不能再繼續拖下去了好嗎我想委員的意見也是對主權基金的一個看法是"},{"start":8234.898,"end":8249.335,"text":"希望政府是去賺更多的錢回來照顧更多的人而不是把事情停擺在這裡如果要做就認真做因為我想主權基金就跟今天的兒童法一樣一旦成立以後其實它影響是非常非常深遠的"},{"start":8249.775,"end":8277.37,"text":"所以我們覺得主權基金的規劃所以不應該只是總統宣誓之後是一個空談我想總統宣誓是要希望藉由他的宣誓基金總統宣誓不能隨便宣誓啊收集各方更多的意見總統宣誓不能只是講一個空話然後什麼東西都沒有然後你們才開始研究的問題是這個我想主權基金的研議我們其實過去一直有相關的研究我希望在今年2026年這應該有個具體落實如果今年都不能具體落實那就是空話到底啊"},{"start":8277.99,"end":8285.977,"text":"好嗎是是好謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員發言接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席我們有請衛福部可以請教一下部長為什麼今天這麼重大的議題怎麼是次長來應該部長在部長還沒回來嗎部長11點回來大概11點多吧11點出頭"},{"start":8308.281,"end":8316.805,"text":"剛剛不是說這是非常重大的議題嗎民進黨的委員還說還要召開公聽會要更多的討論結果今天部長竟然不在場部長還沒來嗎那個跟玉銘委員報告一下就是部長是有跟我請假啊但是他說他等一下會馬上回來他請假點是他現在在行政院報告這個所謂春節的這個急診這個重要嗎"},{"start":8337.3,"end":8365.399,"text":"這一個是一個很重要的議題我覺得像這麼重大的議題其實部長應該要現場應該要現場就是就是接受委員的巡大因為我看各部會來的也都只是都不是部長級的啦那只有衛福部本來名單就是部長我覺得像這麼重大的其實部長應該要在現場才對還趕不回來現在已經10點55分還是玉敏委員不然我們先暫停一下好不好"},{"start":8367.321,"end":8368.061,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝王育民"},{"start":8396.195,"end":8402.955,"text":"我請呂次還有我們勞保局的白局長請呂次長跟白局長"},{"start":8404.174,"end":8423.868,"text":"委員長很久沒看了是來 我今天問三個問題 三個問題第一個 我們衛福部從2017年就設這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶對不對是 沒錯可是現在已經八九年了對"},{"start":8427.31,"end":8445.058,"text":"那你是用中低收入到低收入家庭的孩子那到現在到目前就是三萬九千多人然後存款才三十二億這樣平均起碼一人存八萬塊而已"},{"start":8451.542,"end":8462.791,"text":"這個案子很好把它擴大整個方向整個限制都打開這個本身就是一個好的方法了是不是 市長"},{"start":8465.047,"end":8487.068,"text":"非常感謝委員 長久以來對少子女化問題的關心 我要委員報告就是我們之前 其實這是在美國最早有一個資產累積我們叫Sheldon 他的理論就是說很可能 希望他們在最早 我們十八歲的時候會有辦法第一桶金 讓他們的經濟市場可以繼續"},{"start":8490.791,"end":8510.105,"text":"但委員報告我們現在推動的那部分我們也是說就是要幫助我們這個港口的家庭讓他們脫貧那你現在這個錢是委託台灣銀行嗎我們現在就是存在 存在台銀那邊是跟存在的那些私房或是他們有投資"},{"start":8511.885,"end":8535.032,"text":"我們現在都是儲蓄的功能 只有儲蓄而已所以可以定存的錢 那不是笑的 理想的幾乎是零啊所以你現在 他這個草案說是要讓勞保局操作嘛 勞保局你們在看什麼 勞保局你們看看錢 幾點要給你們 你看你們多厲害"},{"start":8537.825,"end":8562.002,"text":"跟委員做報告現在國內這個兒少發展賬戶那是由主管機關衛福部這邊來指定台銀來辦理那目前的一個實務運作據我們了解其他模式相對是成熟對於中央還有地方主管機關還有金融機構之間的一個分工還有作業流程相對是清楚的那如果在勞動部這邊的話因為勞保局過去扮演的角色是在社會保險部分的一個"},{"start":8562.822,"end":8576.203,"text":"保險人那如果在基金的投資運用上面是我們勞動部的勞動基金運用局這邊來做處理那如果說就這樣的一個制度當然今天大院其實也討論了非常多在制度的一個設計上我們也尊重主管機關這邊的一個考量"},{"start":8578.41,"end":8594.377,"text":"不過在設計的過程中因為以勞保局我們現行的一個整個勞保局的一個定位角色跟人力上面我們是有提到剛剛還講的兒少的發展賬戶如果說在現行的模式上一定有一個相對成熟穩定的運作模式經驗可循"},{"start":8595.407,"end":8622.243,"text":"那在這樣的一個基礎上跟如果把這個業務再委託到勞保局對我們而言是全新的業務衛福部這個架構我看是還不錯但是他就錢就你存在台銀他就是全放在那裡走並且設立一個帳戶這樣而已啊不去投資嘛不去投資就沒有它的效益出來那如果說將來還是放在台銀台銀能力會不會很差啊"},{"start":8623.764,"end":8649.943,"text":"你們的操作幾兆幾兆在操作的你們的效益都有8% 10% 12%所以台會指定給你們對你們才比較有期待那如果是衛福部你把留在衛福部之前交給台銀台銀也是用這種投資的型態台銀自己本身就可以操作因為我給他算一算你沒有多少錢"},{"start":8651.084,"end":8679.63,"text":"最多才三四千億而已比你們那幾兆幾兆再投資的差太多了如果是將來交給你們應該也是小case啦如果是給台銀的話台銀到那個年齡啦我現在比較大的質疑啦現在台銀沒有來不然的話就請他好好的來表示也跟委員這邊做一個補充在目前是不是勞動基金議員局今天副局長有來是不是如果委員同意的話可以請副局長這邊做一個補充那目前我們在"},{"start":8681.871,"end":8696.781,"text":"勞工退休金的制度上面我們有新制跟舊制那在台銀部分的話舊制就是在我們勞基法56條有明確規定我們的收支保管運用是委託台灣銀行來做處理那我們的基金運用局主要是負責新制部分因為下次這個會繼續辦來 第二個問題請次長"},{"start":8702.852,"end":8723.564,"text":"市長這第二個問題就是這一個今天提出的這個未來賬戶這個是很好的我們執政黨的立法委員也說這個很好但是只是說兇兇把他踢出來所以他做得沒credit做得他的公債做得沒了所以給他動動動之後還要開公廳還要做什麼"},{"start":8726.425,"end":8742.317,"text":"那事實上這個在全世界像新加坡、英國、韓國、加拿大都有了嘛那邊的各式的方式都不一樣這都有精力出來了是 謝謝所以出生給他五萬一年給他一萬、一萬、一萬家長要拿可以一年拿十萬"},{"start":8747.561,"end":8771.062,"text":"這樣到你如果說拿10萬到12歲、18歲 那就比較多了對 這個是好事啦 又去投資又有賺一點利息 又有賺一點投資的效益那這個是好事 倒是我們健保局 我們衛福部本身是比較保守嘛還要一種站在旁邊的人 站固定立立 那你不笑耶"},{"start":8772.664,"end":8779.713,"text":"這一直發生什麼樣子委員我想簡單報告一下委員你現在所說的這幾個我估計就是剛才委員所說的英國英國是兩千五年開辦的但是兩千十一年它都停了是怎樣它換方向啦"},{"start":8787.282,"end":8792.745,"text":"不像我剛才說的2008所以委員我們為什麼因為我們這些都是港口人的錢我們要更謹慎的啦你說不用投資 投資比有風險嘛這個部分可能還是要慎思啦 我剛才說英國那個案例可能"},{"start":8807.149,"end":8825.213,"text":"原則是2011年還有一個是由Junior ISA這三萬台那個保安就是後來就沒辦法 去到一半變成爛尾樓所以他們就很好 就很好就接下去了所以我們知道大家都希望說做好但是這個因為像保安今天也有說這個這樣下去四千多億"},{"start":8828.354,"end":8838.009,"text":"我們現在高齡化 我們有很多社會救助 像長照3.0都在退縮所以是不是會產生排擠效果可能也是要謹慎來來來變更舒服好"},{"start":8842.037,"end":8854.481,"text":"所以這個還要等民進黨有沒有提版本行政大臣要不要提版本那部長有指示說我們現在就是廣聽我們國務委員還有我們社會各自的意見我們來做一個對民間我們這些父母最好的一個方案我們是那個開放態度"},{"start":8868.338,"end":8872.421,"text":"好 所以臨近目前要做的就是這樣要做 不用這樣做議長有提及說我們現在目前現有剛才委員也有說這個我們會來研擬看是不是可以再擴大好過不錯 我們要怎麼擴大我最後問你 台灣有800萬戶左右800萬戶"},{"start":8887.91,"end":8898.853,"text":"裡面沒有納稅或是納5%以下的所得稅差不多要到5%幾萬所以差不多六成我都沒有納稅所以你用4萬好太少了"},{"start":8905.435,"end":8928.724,"text":"一定要享受這個不流水 或是說流5%的水這個小孩 你要保證如果說收入很高的這個他們自己就有價位有的小孩 像你說小孩在股市有開戶的像我們部長那麼有錢 對不對小孩在股市就要有開戶啊 對不對沒有啦 這說笑但是我要跟你說的就是 技巧這個"},{"start":8930.202,"end":8955.163,"text":"五六百萬給伊哈一定要給他們一個投資型這樣對小孩子將來要保障因為我們現在錢這樣好的時候就很多錢不好的時候有可能就不好我們台灣現在1100多萬個勞工裡面在做晶片業的才100多萬人"},{"start":8955.683,"end":8968.622,"text":"其他的1000萬 都苦哈哈傳統產業現在都苦哈哈那這個晶片業如果往下掉一點馬上出問題你看整個股市70%的資金都在消"},{"start":8970.408,"end":8983.221,"text":"銷高科技晶片 這個是很可怕的事情你們看好我是看得很擔心這個工農產業你看這個整個股市這邊都國票都六個大約的密碼 這裡就是銷這個好嗎 我不知道這個是我們行政委員會要小心的"},{"start":8992.29,"end":9019.61,"text":"所以你們是開放的態度讓大家來討論原則上你們暫時不提版本我們廣聽各方意見好 謝謝感謝蘇委員 謝謝玉敏你也來謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請王玉敏委員發言"},{"start":9025.441,"end":9053.513,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請石部長請石部長那國發會的副主委其實也一起上來好 王委員好部長好 部長這個我剛才特別調順序就是為了質詢你因為我覺得這麼重大的議題部長你的發言是代表整個衛福部那今天要討論這個台灣未來賬戶我已經看到你面對媒體的時候你說這個普惠市的政策造成資源排擠"},{"start":9055.234,"end":9074.2,"text":"部長這個讓我對你的印象這個打了折扣這樣的發言其實非常的保守而且你沒有用一個發展性的觀點來看待一個未來的可能性這跟你過去給人家的印象完全不吻合是行政院交代你不可以多發言嗎"},{"start":9075.94,"end":9099.809,"text":"因為少子化辦公室你講大白話對不對辦公室根本就沒有真正成立啊沒有專人的編制啊你敢講實話大家肯定你啊那這件事情我是覺得以部長的高度或者是過去看你做事的風格你對於有發展性的創新的東西你應該不是第一時間就會去抗拒跟排斥的人嗎你不像"},{"start":9100.886,"end":9126.892,"text":"跟委員說明早上其實我完整的發言是講所有的政策都是一個選擇那我們都是會在既有的有限資源下去做最好的配置哪些是我們應該要優先那麼難免就會讓有一些這個政策呢就要做互相當中的這些順序的調整"},{"start":9127.652,"end":9143.14,"text":"所以我常講這個我有時候過去大家也知道我為了健保的財務會睡不著覺其實我們國家面臨當然我們的經濟發展很好但是高齡化跟少子女化很多都需要用錢沒有錯"},{"start":9143.7,"end":9164.069,"text":"当然所以我们在少子女化部分我们过去从这个少子女对策1.0到今年开始2.0其实我们不断的在强化除了经济弱势的儿童也对一般的儿童那么也挹注但是部长我要告诉你一件事情数据会说话"},{"start":9165.289,"end":9185.199,"text":"過去政府投資了超過五千億的確有在做 我不會說你們沒有做但是做的結果是去年的我們的新生兒的人口數只有十萬七千八百一十二人我覺得所有的部會所有的人員都要記住107812這個數字要非常的謹記"},{"start":9189.821,"end":9195.975,"text":"你如果看到從2016年到現在我們新生兒的人數他是腰斬"},{"start":9198.26,"end":9226.139,"text":"我不知道賴清德總統會不會晚上睡不著覺你將來你連國監幫你打仗的人都很有困難啊所以這個議題我覺得大家不要小看他就是一個標標準準已經是到國安等級危機的問題這不是空話就是大家在2016年的時候也不敢相信說人口怎麼可能掉得這麼快從20萬人可以掉到10萬7812人"},{"start":9229.181,"end":9241.758,"text":"這個速度太快了所以面對這麼重大的議題政府當然要有魄力 要有遠見要用個更宏觀的角度 發展的角度提出更好的方案嘛"},{"start":9243.058,"end":9261.177,"text":"如果你還是在那邊縫縫補補小知小覺什麼1.0 2.0 3.0然後慢慢增加我跟你說來不及了來不及了所以今天照道理來講我為什麼請國發會副主委上來這是你國發會的責任"},{"start":9263.439,"end":9281.045,"text":"就整個國家的發展你們早就應該要提出更有魄力 更有遠見 更宏觀性至少讓我們的人口可以止跌吧沒有 沒有止跌的方案所以這個是為什麼國眾兩黨今天必須提出來這個台灣未來賬戶"},{"start":9283.286,"end":9303.694,"text":"這一步剛剛次長講了很多說不一定可以解決少子化的問題但是至少他讓我們未來的年輕人看到國家跟你一起養的決心國家可以陪著你讓你未來政府的責任是讓你的小孩未來他在18歲的時候可以有一筆資金"},{"start":9305.254,"end":9322.337,"text":"不管是他要就學也好他要自己再去深造也好我們對於國家未來的主人翁我們政府負了一定的責任讓他可以安穩這樣的一個方案川普已經先講了他今年7月他也要做了"},{"start":9323.098,"end":9339.25,"text":"我們台灣跟進為什麼美國可以台灣不行但是我必須講我今天聽了民進黨很多委員他的這樣的一個發言從前面的程序的發言然後我們官員的報告我感到非常的失望"},{"start":9340.271,"end":9363.742,"text":"因為多數都還是用一種很僵化保守的心態甚至把這個議題跟弱勢的議題連結在一起這是兩件事弱勢本來政府就在照顧而部長我不同意你的是你說這個會造成資源的排擠你沒有用一個更宏觀的發展性的觀念為什麼我們對於孩子的投資就只能這些"},{"start":9365.003,"end":9387.84,"text":"如果這個是未來重大的國安議題為什麼不是政府我們可以用更大的資源跟力量朝野大家一起合作想出一個更好的辦法這個才叫開放的態度但上午的尋討讓我聽起來那不叫開放的態度那個就是打從心裡先抵抗就覺得不好我們看看主計總書跟財政部出的報告"},{"start":9389.895,"end":9404.966,"text":"都是保守再保守啊如果我們同樣政府都是這樣的心態我們的掃紙的話有解嗎我就要問了我們有提出更有效的解放嗎這個是我看到我覺得我們現在政府很迫切危機如果我們"},{"start":9406.383,"end":9430.824,"text":"思考這麼的僵化固著我們提不出更好的方案沒有解方大概會維持這個樣子所以這個是我覺得為什麼今天希望部長你可以上台接受質詢我覺得你應該要回到你原來比較開創性的思考那個部分重新再來思考這個問題你剛剛前面第一句話講得很好政策是一種選擇"},{"start":9433.083,"end":9461.009,"text":"就是我們的方向性我們現在就是少子化的問題我們就應該要很嚴肅認真面對而且你的力道要夠強不要都提那個很微小的很微小的方案出來這是一個大破大立的方案它當然會動用到一些的資源但是我們要問的是對於未來對於給予父母更大的信心是不是對台灣社會注入一股強心針我個人覺得是"},{"start":9462.069,"end":9468.119,"text":"所以這件事情我希望部長你應該要有一個更開放的態度來面對可以嗎"},{"start":9469.191,"end":9496.087,"text":"谢谢委员这样的一些前瞻性的说法不过我们回头来看我们过去对少子女化所做的这些的投入其实没有一条我认为没有一条应该少他都应该做所以我的意思是应该要再加吗只是说不要用这种后事的观念所以面临到现在我们仍然没有办法看到成效那到底是强度要再加深"},{"start":9497.027,"end":9519.948,"text":"还是要另辟蹊径这个是另辟蹊径就是我们现在变成是往以后18岁以后看但是我们现在当前的是强度不够对于这种育儿的家庭他的经济的支持跟机会的成本去强化你既有的政策又外加一一加一不行吗所以我希望是"},{"start":9521.038,"end":9548.139,"text":"再多一點時間像剛剛很多委員也提到以公聽會的方式然後讓我們再有一點時間那部長我可不可以要求你衛福部也要認真去做功課可以嗎會 這個是我們的責任你提出你可不可以有1加1的版本你既有的政策在強化之外再外加這個版本的到底整個我們需要多少的資源另外一個國發會的副主委今天在我們朝這個方向來來努力研究"},{"start":9548.939,"end":9562.125,"text":"國發會的副主委我今天看你們報告 坦白講我蠻失望的過去行政院一直說國發會是扮演一個總體的我們的人口政策你們應該是那個腦但是你們今天的報告不及格"},{"start":9563.147,"end":9581.422,"text":"什麼都沒有提到我跟委員報告就像委員說 剛剛部長說的其實人口少子兒問題設施的面向非常廣泛所以事實上現在行政院的分工裡面是由陳政委在會籍各個相關部會提出相關的規則那基本上我們國發會第一個我們發布人口的"},{"start":9587.307,"end":9608.244,"text":"那個相關的統計你們要提政策啊對那我們基本上我們在負責的部分就是因為其實人口結構會影響到人才跟人力的這個部分所以呢其實我們人才跟人力這一塊怎麼樣去做一些我覺得這個國發會你們要再更主動一點好不好"},{"start":9608.564,"end":9630.77,"text":"是的你不要什麼都是衛福部衛福部他們執行面其實事情非常的多跟委員報告其實衛福部或是陳時中政委在召開相關會議的時候我們國發會都會參與我們也會從國家資源分配的角度裡面提供相關的建議因為行政院他基本上有他的這個政委的分工那我們都有參與其中的計劃"},{"start":9631.59,"end":9647.743,"text":"我覺得你們不夠積極 坦白講過去我看到國發會不是這樣人口政策 少子化政策都是你們在提現在變成都落到這個衛福部頭上我覺得衛福部也沒有那麼厲害所以我認為國發會還是要扮演起一個更宏觀的角度 好不好"},{"start":9648.623,"end":9664.276,"text":"好的政策應該你們來提然後去徵詢衛福部的意見我希望副主委你也很有經驗你們應該要再更積極一點因為解決少子化不是單一部會的問題是每一個部會都有責任好不好我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":9664.836,"end":9680.084,"text":"請大家用一個更開放的心態更前瞻的心態我們一起來思考有沒有更好的辦法讓我們的年輕人更有信心而且真的去落實國家跟你一起養政府的責任絕對不能少 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 現在先做以下宣告待會陳昭之委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘那接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":9698.733,"end":9718.019,"text":"主席好我們先請部長休息一下金管會我們的黃局長黃副局長請副局長金管會是這個證券期貨局的局長高金平"},{"start":9721.779,"end":9745.158,"text":"我想請問一下金管會有沒有看過國民黨跟民眾黨共提的台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案你們有實際看過嗎那是不是可以麻煩你說說看我們提的台灣未來帳戶的特別條例草案跟你們拿出來偷換的TISA的這個部分在政策上有什麼不同的地方來"},{"start":9749.502,"end":9772.697,"text":"委員的版本是要委託那個勞金局勞動部這邊來經管這個帳戶那經管會的部分是就我們目前已經推動的TESA的這個帳戶有一個投資帳戶的一個運作情形如果未來這個帳戶這個兒少帳戶你們這個版本有沒有放一塊錢政府有沒有替孩子存一塊錢在裡面"},{"start":9774.083,"end":9800.36,"text":"因為應該是說前端有這個帳戶出來以後是不是要結合投資那如果在結合投資的時候這樣怎麼可以拿出來跟未來帳戶對比呢我們沒有說要跟未來帳戶對比可是我們總統拿這個來回應不是嗎應該是說我們TESA帳戶是未來如果這個帳戶要做相關的投資的話是不是可以運用我們TESA帳戶做一個協助"},{"start":9801.167,"end":9810.384,"text":"所以你們也是希望用這個來替代嗎應該是說我們配合整個國家的政策看是有沒有需要金管會這個TESA賬戶來協助的部分"},{"start":9810.871,"end":9833.528,"text":"因為我看到這個結論就是我們目前政府是選擇不由國家來投資下一代而是把風險跟責任又把它留給我們年輕的家庭讓他自己承擔對不對應該是說政策上是怎麼樣讓這個帳戶成立後端要不要結合投資這樣子但是政策應該還是由衛福我先請我們時務長來一下請時務長"},{"start":9841.115,"end":9848.471,"text":"第一个问题我想请教就刚刚一样的问题就是你们有看过我们国民党跟民众党提的特别条例的草案吗"},{"start":9849.124,"end":9867.499,"text":"因為時間比較短我們大概內部稍微討論了一下但是還沒有很詳細的對 因為裡面有些不是我們本來的領域對 因為我看到你們這份報告書的這個書面報告書裡面都說是在107年的兒童及少年未來教育與發展賬戶條例跟從107年開始的少子"},{"start":9870.962,"end":9882.595,"text":"少子女化對策計畫那你們今天拿兩個說明當成報告內容來回應未來帳戶的特別條例草案我有點意外因為這兩個是這三個是不同的東西吧"},{"start":9884.229,"end":9899.824,"text":"應該是這麼說因為在這個條例今天的草案的條例的第一條立法的目的裡面呢他就開宗明義就寫了為了兩件事情一個是少子女化一個是要世代貧富的消米問題所以我們才會針對為了要達到這兩個"},{"start":9901.906,"end":9924.492,"text":"那個立法的目的其實目前行政單位的相對應的做法就是剛剛提到的少子女化行動對策以及這個這個所謂兒少的教育及發展未來107年那一套這個條例照顧的是弱勢家庭對吧他不是跟少子女化這個部分沒有關係沒有關係那為什麼會拿出來"},{"start":9926.693,"end":9952.621,"text":"因為今天這個條例的第一條的立法說明就寫了是為了要解決少子女化以及消米這個跨世代的貧富落差問題你那個照顧弱勢我看到也沒有幫到弱勢家庭很多啊你就是他們家長出一塊國家出一塊嘛對啊他就已經很辛苦了還要叫他存他怎麼拿得出來"},{"start":9953.001,"end":9976.233,"text":"不過我們現在做了這個8年也有一些成果啦那麼我們也會來現在也在檢討要不要再做得更積極一點我們政策推動之後我們還是相關單位還是要去做這個滾動的檢討來做調整我希望這個錢要花在刀口上好不好我們就是希望把這個錢花在刀口上"},{"start":9976.553,"end":9999.831,"text":"那少子女化的對策計畫我看107年到114年花了5931億元那主要是不是集中用在6歲以下兒童的育兒津貼托育跟幼教補助這種即時性的補助84%都用在0到6歲這個國家跟你一起養的這些策略上你接下來這個2.0計畫115年到118年我們又編了4250億對吧"},{"start":10006.758,"end":10012.713,"text":"對 那還是我看這個做法還是跟過去的做法差不多嘛也都是用在以前60以下對不對"},{"start":10014.029,"end":10036.454,"text":"六歲這邊的這個就是國家跟你一起養的這邊還是會持續的擴大那另外一個就是希望在另外的這個教育還有這個住宅政策還有新手爸媽的寫手還有兒童的照顧的部分能夠再強對那我看到這個部分花了那麼多錢我們的成效是什麼"},{"start":10037.729,"end":10051.464,"text":"這個就如恐剛剛我也有提到我們檢視這些作為好像也沒有一項是不應該做好像也都應該做那只不過是力道夠不夠要不要再講話我看到我們每年出生的人口數"},{"start":10052.785,"end":10075.272,"text":"同一段時間當時卻從大概是18萬人一路下降到107000人這個越做人越少不應該檢討嗎對不對 就表示說我們今天提的我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的這個法案是因為針對這個少子化的部分這已經是國安層級的問題對不對 我們希望加大力度也就是說把它調整到"},{"start":10076.492,"end":10091.363,"text":"到18歲國家養不是國家養 說他出社會之後他有一筆那個是未來的他的資金啦對啊 所以我們在提這個您的看法部長有覺得這個需要嗎"},{"start":10091.909,"end":10120.784,"text":"就是我們現在在思考的是說如果現在我們在0到6歲這一段時間是要減輕育兒家庭的經濟負擔為主因為一個小孩子從出生到大學要花600萬到1000萬對不對所以我們在做這個部分我認為政府現在年輕人不敢生的原因是因為現在養一個孩子要花那麼大的成本這個才是國家的重大問題要有人我們國家才有希望對不對這樣人一直越來越少那以後台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":10121.624,"end":10149.062,"text":"所以我们现在目前的少子女对策大概在0到6岁投注的一个孩子大概是120到180万的补助我认为这个也应该可以再更高一点来减轻这些育儿家庭的经济负担这个是应该优先来思考我们提出的条例是不会排挤也不会影响到0到6岁的既有的经费"},{"start":10150.764,"end":10163.975,"text":"這個我應該這樣講就是我們提到國防預算這個一照2500億我們政府連眼睛都不眨一下為什麼要照顧這個我們的小孩子要鼓勵我們的生育我們這麼多的問題呢這不應該討論嗎這不是更嚴重嗎"},{"start":10169.349,"end":10184.16,"text":"所以我贊成我們來討論那麼剛剛幾位委員也提到那麼以公聽會的方式也很好那麼讓各種的我們既有的政策再來做檢視力度要再加深的地方回去我希望部長您"},{"start":10184.921,"end":10207.719,"text":"以你的專業然後向我們相關行政院來反映一下當然他們現在一定會擋一定會多擋又會排擠到消音什麼的那又搞不好又牽扯到什麼總預算沒過那也希望部長回去跟院長講一下他說我們的挑三檢四嘛那我們也希望我們的這個這個什麼這個"},{"start":10211.559,"end":10228.657,"text":"行政院在編預算的時候不要編的七頂八落 好不好我們把政策在全盤的再檢視一下 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員發言 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":10244.774,"end":10255.263,"text":"主席 再討論先進 烈士旗的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生讓部長休息一下 待會還有人要繼續請教您讓次長上來 呂次長請好 請呂次長辛苦了"},{"start":10271.198,"end":10295.155,"text":"市長你好 我想一輩子你聽很多國民黨和民眾黨的委員請教你這個問題心裡有很多的想法我也把這個疑問 我跟你一樣有很多疑問要一個一個問說到這個川普其實很特別 在美國總統很威可以去委內瑞拉 如如無人之境 美軍他們的司法官那麼強"},{"start":10296.496,"end":10314.662,"text":"但是他做的很多事情很多國家都是驚嘆號藍白在野黨的委員對川普總統說各國民主同盟應該強化自己的國防應該增加自己的預算來保護自己的國家維持區域的安定你覺得這個有他的道理嗎"},{"start":10315.923,"end":10343.525,"text":"沒錯那他提出一個川普帳戶感覺上也好像有他的道理嘛我說他的道理但是很特別的台灣在野黨呢只對於川普帳戶情有獨鍾對於要求增強台灣的國防自己防衛的預算好像不太買單不過我們還是一樣還要肯定一下川普的做法你了解吧他是說他任期內的新生兒每個新生兒出來美國政府給他1000美金存那個帳戶裡面後面呢後面靠誰"},{"start":10345.714,"end":10356.206,"text":"後面靠誰 後面靠他的父母嘛對川普總統有沒有每年都繼續給這個新生兒一歲也給 二歲也給 三歲也給沒有 他只給第一筆1000塊給你開辦的一個帳號 開帳你覺得啦 從所得分配來講這個是對比較窮的人有利還是對有錢人有利"},{"start":10363.795,"end":10371.443,"text":"報告委員 他這中年是對有錢的人嘛沒有啦 我是說 阿尊是一千塊給每一個人啦喔 每一千塊 如果這樣 中年就是...對他沒有錢的人 我本來欠一個十塊 我都有困難你現在給我一千塊 我很高興的對有錢人的家庭 沒關係啦可能他老婆老公一年都給他一萬塊 都沒問題嘛所以川普總統這一千塊"},{"start":10385.578,"end":10402.954,"text":"對於一個六四家庭連欠錢都有困難只有他有一個一千塊派對後面的老闆老婦有辦法每年欠錢嗎這不知道對於後面的人來說你沒有發一千塊川普你沒有發一千塊我也是每天每年都給你放一萬塊美金對不對一千塊對於一萬塊來說未來十八年人家十八萬才一千塊所以川普這個政策看起來是對"},{"start":10410.561,"end":10430.135,"text":"普通的美国人的家庭尤其是没有厨师的家庭有个高的厨师嘛好 你知道现在在野党的版本是什么往下看蓝白的未来账户是连给12年我看到一下嘛他的第6条诶 试用对象呢只要出生未满12岁是不是免连给啊"},{"start":10431.513,"end":10448.894,"text":"他的版本是說每年都還要再加一萬進去每年還要再加一萬喔有沒有要求他們的父母要加沒有嘛所以說白吃的午餐最香嘛見物開請就好了嘛這當然要是我是弱勢家庭我也歡迎啦但是有個問題"},{"start":10450.476,"end":10472.891,"text":"你們有沒有算過你們算過差不多隆重要開多少?報告委員我們這樣算算的可能第一年要開多少?這樣總共的方案4030啦四千空空三十億第一年就要開多少?要隆重十二年隆重要開四千多少?四千億十二年四千億看起來跟"},{"start":10473.792,"end":10501.724,"text":"在野黨堅持的年改增加的國家負債好像又是一筆反年改倒退的一個負擔今天我是主計總署他們就不用了我們都知道這個錢國家的錢那有人說這個會不會排擠到現在預算我很懷疑未來12年國家總共要支付4000多億跟我們的年金改革未來10年未來每年要付3600億這筆錢很大有人覺得中華民國國庫很有錢繼續花來往下看"},{"start":10502.793,"end":10523.699,"text":"好那民眾怎麼看呢民眾認為說這個投票的結果多數的民眾六成五是反對有部分民眾是保留他說金額要小不能亂花錢有條件贊成只應照顧弱勢請問你覺得這兩點你支不支持金額要小不要亂花錢有條件贊成限於弱勢家庭"},{"start":10525.936,"end":10552.899,"text":"反對的我們不講啦 有人說反對說政府亂花錢啊資源有限啊 財政負擔啊 政策好聽啊 效果有限啊對於沒有小孩或小孩長大下來不公平啊 這就不看了對於說金額要適度要照顧弱勢家庭 你支持嗎包委員 這個其實也是卓院長在元旦他有一個政策說明其中有很重要事實上就是要擴大我們現在目前但是要弱勢優先弱勢優先 好 那我們現在看啦"},{"start":10553.78,"end":10577.751,"text":"所以說我們覺得在野黨在幫助有錢人的世代財富傳承你看看根據這個第12條這13條未來中的特別條例他這個開戶是在怎樣開戶人或他的法定代理人最近親屬他要存好啦其實富裕家庭的人他本來就會存如果是弱智家庭的可能沒有辦法存所以如果"},{"start":10578.581,"end":10607.596,"text":"弱勢家庭的都只是靠政府存他的福利效果有限有錢家庭的他利上加利等於是政府幫他住很大的一臂之力這樣子在我們的國家的一個社會公平正義來講這會不會是一種所得能力分配包委這可能複製現有的這個階級的還有家庭複製現有的階級差異因為等於是什麼我們看來下一張等於是窮人家今日的麵包成為富二代的未來金幣"},{"start":10608.576,"end":10617.811,"text":"我們把這第一年的一千多億未來的十一年還要加上三千多億這些都是用當年度政府的預算納稅人繳的稅嘛沒錯"},{"start":10619.639,"end":10642.418,"text":"纳税人我知道目前有56%的人都要缴薪资所得税其他的人44%他的所得未达这个程度那现在这些没有缴税的经济能力未达缴税额度的是不是就是我们卫务部你们要去关注的对象要把大家缴来的钱有能力缴税的56%的人他缴了税"},{"start":10643.218,"end":10667.521,"text":"讓我們政府來照顧這沒有能力角色的44%這是衛福部的事情沒錯 所以我們市部長說資源要用在刀口上是 好但是如果我們現在為了這個未來帳戶12年拿了4000億每年等於是你第一年1000億未來每年要拿300億出來預算要編在哪裡編在衛福部名下衛福部有辦法漲出每年多300億嗎"},{"start":10670.3,"end":10693.23,"text":"還是說我們的錢還是從納稅人的錢來所以納稅人繳來的錢本來叫衛福部要照顧弱勢的現在在幫誰的忙幫那些富家庭的二代放他18歲以後的明日金幣對 沒錯我先問一下你知道目前因為我在財政委員會今天實戰聯席我們都知道保險業者最喜歡做什麼業務"},{"start":10694.642,"end":10711.257,"text":"高資產客戶用保單來做什麼財富傳承因為保險的受益人保險的保費繳那麼多高額保費受益人當被保險人頑固的時候受益人他的那個保險的幾戶要不要課稅"},{"start":10713.496,"end":10742.407,"text":"不用課稅不用課稅那現在你這樣的一個版本就當於有錢家庭的人他放到這個帳戶的錢未來他小孩用的時候要不要課稅這個不知道啦那宋署長一點點時間趕快你講一下這樣到底有沒有對富家庭來講節稅的效果我要是買保單傳承財富我可以免於被課稅那這個呢這個衛福部的麵包牛奶貧困家庭的這個錢拿來給藍白板的未來家庭"},{"start":10742.967,"end":10771.149,"text":"他們父母你每年存那麼多我存十倍下去存在帳戶的錢未來可以不用繳稅嗎如果他已經存到小孩的帳戶就變成小孩的錢那要怎麼所以未來小孩體靈本金的部分沒有稅的問題當他產生的知習是有稅的問題目前如果我們有錢家庭在場的有錢家庭財富傳承財政部一年給多少的這樣的一個證語或者是幫小孩子存錢的利息的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":10773.004,"end":10789.885,"text":"如果是正語的話每年是244萬以現在的額度244萬我每年要想辦法挪244萬給我兒子在他未成年之前 我想都有困難那這244萬是不用稅啦是不用課正義稅好 所以來 部長請你上台"},{"start":10791.475,"end":10804.58,"text":"總究你要來做個Ending我請了次長 請了署長好 那請問一下那麼川普的賬戶給其他國家一個參考有沒有其他國家曾經做過類似的事情"},{"start":10805.945,"end":10822.018,"text":"据了解的话在英国也做过类似更早做过英国做过类似更早那英国有继续做吗没有了没有这个没有办法在财务上永续没有办法在财务上永续所以我们规节我们对于"},{"start":10823.385,"end":10844.004,"text":"仿造川普帳戶這樣的一個操作業到台灣之後變成是一個每年都要給父母也不見得要給然後造成的是一個逆所得的逆分配造成還是國家的財政負擔還造成了會排擠到衛福部其他照顧弱勢家庭你們現在有在照顧弱勢家庭的類似這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":10844.705,"end":10861.174,"text":"有多少人受益这个受益目标是应该6万人左右目前有多少万人目前是近4万3万9千多人很好所以如果我们要照顾这些弱势家庭的孩子目标6万我们的卫护部一年要放多少钱进去"},{"start":10862.63,"end":10887.533,"text":"因為這個目前開戶的最高我們一年對波是一萬五所以目前的預算投入大概多少了幾億啊 一萬五大概簡單講已經投入多少六億左右投了六億了對 一年大概要編六億但是目前在我們國家給需要照顧人六億跟給所有有錢人家庭的小孩每個人加起來全部一千億你認為會不會有排擠效果"},{"start":10890.573,"end":10913.78,"text":"我想這個事情我還是覺得我的意見不能代表全體的意見但是我想我們來自不同的家庭不同的社會階層有夢最美但是現實是很骨感的想像很豐滿但是這件事情到底要怎麼樣才能齊全我們支持國家要來支持人民的下一代讓下一代他出生之後他未來有保障"},{"start":10914.68,"end":10933.231,"text":"如果有該公聽會 您覺得您會推薦哪些團體或希望我們找哪些團體來參與意見請你回去想一下 好不好那麼一個星期內給我個名單未來可能我們要是要辦公廳的話我們希望邀請各種不同的團體來討論這議題好不好好一個星期 謝謝謝謝中嘉賓委員發言接下來請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":10945.912,"end":10958.79,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長部長我今天七點鐘不到就在昏暗的走廊等著你等著要第一個質詢你對不起因為有另外一個重要的會議跟趙偉先請個假謝謝趙偉幫忙不好意思"},{"start":10962.383,"end":10976.322,"text":"部長我這次在野黨的合作在野黨推動的台灣未來賬戶台灣Future Account我們的目的就是希望能夠用國家的制度來支持育兒家庭也就是說讓孩子出生的時候就開始累積資源"},{"start":10977.903,"end":11003.176,"text":"那作為強化家庭的後盾那這個帳戶的所有權是孩子本身那一直要到民法成年之後他才能去動用去領用所以是讓未來下一代能夠鋪陳更安心更穩定的一個成長環境就是成為我這個這個標題嘛投資未來投資孩子就是投資台灣的這個未來我先請教部長您簡單回答你認為年輕人為什麼不敢生養"},{"start":11004.136,"end":11027.442,"text":"您簡單給我幾個字從過去的調查當然是在他的機會成本跟他的育兒的經濟壓力上面就是經濟育兒的問題這個根據政大勞研所劉教授指出當然除了低薪高房價之外現在年輕人也擔心經濟力會延續到下一代喔部長你說不是只有個人現在面臨經濟壓力"},{"start":11029.002,"end":11052.715,"text":"他包含未來的孩子都可能會繼續承擔這樣的壓力所以他不敢讓孩子出生這是一個很大的理由不是他自己會延續到下一代現行政策是低收入群有社福補助中低收入有部分的支持但是還有一群剛好不夠窮卻不敢生的家庭完全被忽略了其實他們這群人也是少子化的關鍵"},{"start":11054.176,"end":11082.441,"text":"在野黨所提的台灣未來賬戶某個程度在解決年輕人對育兒的經濟壓力的顧慮部長 我先請問你你出生那一年 我就不洩露你年齡了你出生那一年有多少嬰兒出生超過30萬拜託 40萬 41萬40萬9620人 41萬 部長答案雖然OK 但不夠精準那你就知道 那去年呢 你背一下去年2025年出生多少小孩"},{"start":11083.328,"end":11099.026,"text":"就十萬七千多 近八千你算數打一打 兩成六 沒中去年是你出生的那一年兩成六的出生率當看2025年一整年 這幼徒你看看這個死亡人口跟出生人口"},{"start":11100.424,"end":11125.803,"text":"这个就是生不如死嘛那事实上我们出生人口数下降已经连续60个月那总人口的这个副成长就是生不如死已经24个月请问部长行政院是不是真的有把这个长期这个现象生不如死视为国安问题它是不是国安问题你刚刚就跑到行政院去了它是不是国安问题对对对它是国安问题这个绝对影响国家未来的发展"},{"start":11126.616,"end":11132.872,"text":"那國家少子女化到底花了多少錢部長少子女化政府到底花了多少錢"},{"start":11133.737,"end":11136.66,"text":"我們統計的從這個執政黨開始好了2017開始我們從107到114年我們投入在少子女化對策計畫大概是5913億5931億7年時間假設這個說法是很OK的那部長親口說了台灣的未來賬戶預計13年會花多少錢"},{"start":11159.096,"end":11187.192,"text":"如果按照我們現在的草案起步是個5萬第一年然後後來每一年是1萬就是到12年就停止但是18歲才能領支領13年的總經費才3841億受益人 受益人高達370萬人比起那個虛設的虛假的這個少子女化辦公室這樣這個台灣未來賬戶更省錢請問部長這麼經濟實惠的政策你能夠不支持嗎"},{"start":11190.057,"end":11211.192,"text":"這個說實在我看不出哪裡經濟實惠因為這個都是要花這麼多錢但是對於我們的目標是少子女化的問題來講能夠有多少的注意我真的是有很大的問號你剛剛才回答我你花了5931億來處理少子女化症結果看到的數字是什麼"},{"start":11212.609,"end":11241.462,"text":"這個勤政運動衛福部一再用資源有限優先照顧弱勢這是一個這個錯解社會投資錯解台灣未來政府不是社會救助而是一個普及型的普及型的這個制度設計目的是讓每一個孩子建立一個基本起點他不是針對特定的族群補助發放補助衛福部一直拿這個兒少兒少的發育跟發展帳戶做對比我先請教部長這個政策推行多久了"},{"start":11242.142,"end":11249.177,"text":"儿少未来教育的发展这106年开始推的他8年的吗8年的这8年来实际服务了多少小孩"},{"start":11250.322,"end":11269.849,"text":"目前開戶的是三萬九千多多位部長你又說得出來開幾六千億結果呢目前總共服務三萬九千多個孩子部長認為這個覆蓋率足以回應全國性的少子化嗎我想這個是兩回事少子女化的對策那個5931說實在話84%都是在0到6歲國家一起養"},{"start":11274.411,"end":11300.047,"text":"直接都是補貼到這些家庭所以那些預算說實在話沒有一毛錢應該要沒有一毛錢是拿來做什麼行政啊什麼都沒有那個都實質上是到家庭的身上我覺得那個也不應該這個我們都可以去追究但是結果呢成效不彰嘛不叫不彰嘛所以對這樣的成效那麼到底我們應該要加大力度"},{"start":11300.327,"end":11315.38,"text":"我再告訴部長去年有一篇報導就指出你剛剛講的那個賬戶那個兒少的未來發展賬戶即便符合資格家庭當中開戶率只有六成而且人均每個月儲蓄金額不升"},{"start":11316.061,"end":11343.483,"text":"反降 近半數的限制限市越來越多家庭只能選擇最低的500塊每個月大概就500塊很多家庭甚至沒有辦法維持每個月固定的儲蓄我要談的是說你利益良善去建立這樣制度2018年陳時中部長就承認弱勢家庭能力不足是主因資深志工社工也指出低社經家庭未來的這個用錢規劃因為他沒有確定性很高嘛"},{"start":11343.923,"end":11356.003,"text":"所以民進黨等於從8年前喔你8年就知道這個制度推行困難結果你還是選擇用8年來證明是不成功的8年前就知道困難8年後證明就是不成功啊"},{"start":11356.74,"end":11380.114,"text":"對 所以對這個兒少的教育還有未來發展我們值得再來檢討看看如何調整這個我們倒是應該要積極來做的現在你們都承認現在制度跟規模跟效果都很有限那麼為什麼當有新的制度構想出現時行政院跟維護部還是留在資源有限制照顧弱勢部長你的專業你的角色你就只能做配合嗎"},{"start":11380.754,"end":11399.052,"text":"没有从弱势优先的角度当然应该要优先对一般的儿少我们用怎么样的方式来帮忙这个也可以讨论部长我希望你就是再回去就是把我们的这个计划好好看一看刚刚这个钟嘉明讲错了这个对存的每个月顶多是一万块了"},{"start":11399.452,"end":11427.377,"text":"沒有什麼要存多少錢 然後去致富沒有 不是這樣設計的好 部長上週中榮傳出疑似非醫事人員進入手術台甚至操作手術器械的爭議那院方跟醫護人員回應說這只是廠商協助排除機械故障並不是實際的醫療作為部長 我們長期都在醫界我想你很清楚問題的核心不是影片是否真假而是說制度長期有存在灰色地帶"},{"start":11428.878,"end":11446.319,"text":"許多第一線的醫護都公開指出廠商進入手術室的協助操作這在臨床不是個案不是個案而是多年來默許的一個現象請問部長第一現行法對非醫事人員在手術內可以做到哪個步驟是否有清楚執行的一個界線有沒有你有沒有清楚的界線"},{"start":11447.848,"end":11475.058,"text":"跟委員說明在醫師法28條本來醫療有分為核心業務跟輔助業務醫療核心業務包含手術那麼這個就是要由醫師親自執行這個是沒有模糊的空間有清楚的界線那當制度跟臨床需求明顯脫鉤脫節卻只在世界上曝光後用個案處理那是否等同默許這個灰色地帶的繼續存在呢 部長"},{"start":11475.677,"end":11501.49,"text":"我想隨著科技的進步啊那確實有一些新的儀器這個要導入的時候需要一些技術人員的協助不過也僅止於協助在手術執行的本身還是要由醫師親自執行部長這就是您講的我都理解我理解但是事實上就是說你還是要去做規範嘛因為這個是一個就是房間醫師大象一樣啊就是你知道它曾經存在"},{"start":11502.31,"end":11518.084,"text":"那你如果沒有去就醫療安全不能用用一種公開的秘密去維持它是秘密又公開然後不能用這個方式去維持那主管機關也不能說當作不知道我們大概就當作不知道那希望部長你好好正視這一件事情"},{"start":11519.105,"end":11546.124,"text":"这个有关于这个技术人员进入到这个手术房可能还超过技术人员可能还甚至技术人都不是他可能他应该是技术人员归类在技术人员他提供这些设备如何安装那么摆设等等这些技术人员那么应该要有什么样的规范甚至有一些这个什么指引等等的我们会来研究让他大家有一个遵循对医美的"},{"start":11547.205,"end":11565.743,"text":"醫師的那個指導的範圍的內容您做了一個這個我們相當滿意的一個規範那很多重大的手術其實協助是一件事真的在執行要負上醫療責任的主刀的醫師他根本沒有界限這就很清楚嘛部長這件事情你敢面對嗎"},{"start":11566.884,"end":11581.564,"text":"這個一樣 這個依法行政這個沒有模糊的空間那請部長注意一下這是在房間裡的大象好 謝謝委員謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員那現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":11632.63,"end":11634.83,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11642.261,"end":11645.265,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11670.759,"end":11676.015,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12236.36,"end":12250.627,"text":"好現在繼續開會請陳金輝委員發言主席我想請部長有請部長"},{"start":12254.957,"end":12271.411,"text":"陳委員好 部長好剛剛有聽到有些委員他講到說藍白是倉促的提案但我在這邊就想跟您回顧一下記得11月28我做總質詢的時候是不是我就跟你還有行政院院長垂詢過這個問題了"},{"start":12273.012,"end":12296.952,"text":"是嗎你還記得嗎11月28的時候我曾經提到有多項政策都可能對少子化有幫助而這個是本來在你主責的衛福部下面所管理的兒少帳戶他的利益非常良好可是後來落實的不好那我跟你提醒一下那天我跟你討論有三個原因為什麼兒少帳戶他沒有辦法做好"},{"start":12297.552,"end":12321.368,"text":"第一個原因是他的過程比較繁瑣因為必須要這個人實際上去開戶嘛那第二個原因是很多人他是不繼續跟你衛福部去match存錢這些家庭他可能因為一些其他的原因他把資源配置到其他的地方所以他一旦有開戶前面有存後面也就沒有繼續存了那第三個呢我還告訴你說"},{"start":12322.349,"end":12347.539,"text":"他的那個執行率很差在某些縣市可能四五成但大部分落在六七成所以你既然要做這個國家的戰略工具你應該就是要把它擴大所以當時呢我還舉了英國的例子還舉了新加坡的例子跟你說我認為應該要這樣子做比如說全面都做一個兒童帳戶那你的match也不錯但是遇到"},{"start":12348.78,"end":12357.286,"text":"不足的 比如說你們衛福部針對的這些中低收入戶等等 他的誘因不足你們應該要把他match1到1.5或者1到2或1到3然後我們還進行了一個財務試算 你還記得嗎你現在想的錢嗎11月28"},{"start":12368.078,"end":12386.103,"text":"時間有點久不過確實有類似這樣的對話啦所以當時我就已經propose你一個不錯的做法可以改善你現行的方式而且他在財務上我也都幫你算好了因為退場出去的人多嘛進場進來的人少現在進場是10萬"},{"start":12387.743,"end":12413.572,"text":"明年很多人怕是九萬八萬欸那假使因為你有這個賬戶 進場的人數變多也不可能多到讓你財務上有很大的負擔我自己也已經送提案了 但是很遺憾11月28 今天已經1月13囉當時你跟行政院院長回覆我說好 你們聽完了以後 你們說你們要回去演你可是我現在一個報告都沒有收到你們說要回去演你喔"},{"start":12414.272,"end":12426.358,"text":"我一個報告一個回覆都沒有收到那今天你們的報告也沒有寫說你們想要如何來擴展或者是擴大你們現有的發展帳戶因為這個是卓榮泰院長說的他近期聽到有這樣子的idea他就說ok我們衛福部有一個兒少發展教育發展帳戶我們應該要把它擴大就只有標題"},{"start":12439.105,"end":12459.905,"text":"所以今天我是要跟你討論他只有講到標題那你內容你到底要怎麼做因為你今天的報告也沒有說嘛跟委員說明我們其實已經一直在研議中應該很快的會有我們的新的做法一旦有定案之後我會來跟委員做說明"},{"start":12460.41,"end":12485.219,"text":"那你先講啊你要從哪幾個方向去修改去擴大我想最重要的還是先從這個弱勢優先那我們目前所這個對象上還是只在低收入戶跟中低收入戶我剛已經說了你的弱勢沒有你的弱勢就已經執行的不好我剛跟你講了三四個原因了這是我11月就告訴你了所以你說你要怎麼擴大你可不可以直接給我重點"},{"start":12485.959,"end":12507.419,"text":"重点我刚刚讲的就是三个重点我刚刚讲第一个就是对象的扩大往这个边缘户这边来扩大第二个是对提拨的部分去加成怎么样去增加我们在这个Mutual Fund这个对拨的时候政府的这个益助可以再多一些你是说是我给你的建议吗把它"},{"start":12508.42,"end":12523.914,"text":"我們現在在規劃的方向那第三個就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化大概是從這三個方向那你預計你往這樣子的方向去進行你預計受惠的人數會從現在的人數多多少"},{"start":12525.346,"end":12549.707,"text":"我們也在做最後的盤點因為這個還有預算的問題到底我們能夠爭取到需要到多少預算那麼就擴大到哪一個margin所以我們有在規劃很快會有這個結論總結而言對於藍白兩個黨我們其實就是要把小朋友的未來當作是一個投資等於是投資他們的未來"},{"start":12550.387,"end":12569.937,"text":"那之後我們可能會在委員會可能非常感謝周偉堅排案但是我們之後還會繼續來深度的討論這個議題那第二個想要跟你探討我們的想法也是一樣啦就是這個孩子就是國家的未來嘛那我們應該要更多的這個挹注跟投資啦這個是需要考慮的"},{"start":12571.118,"end":12592.567,"text":"我的意思是說其實那天我總之已經講得很清楚了這個東西並不是我們獨創的而是其他國家比如說英國 新加坡他們已經做得很好那我們可以再把它拿進來加入台灣的元素去把它擴大畢竟我們現在一年升10萬明年不知道升不升得到9萬或8萬這個是你要面對的問題你要面對問題之一第二個也是這兩個禮拜"},{"start":12598.849,"end":12617.139,"text":"非常多引起討論的就是很多縣市都已經講到說營養午餐要補貼那如果順利的話可能今年開學以後也就是九月可以很多縣市是免費營養午餐但是呢這個是美國最近我希望你回去可以請你的同仁來研究一下"},{"start":12617.679,"end":12634.312,"text":"美國最近呢提出了一個歷史性關於營養建議的重置所以他們在這邊寫到英文說是historic reset那他的slogan就是make America healthy again那既然各縣市都已經開始要落實營養午餐免費除了讓小朋友可以吃的免費然後家長減少負擔我們也要讓他們吃的健康所以這個指引我等一下跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":12645.72,"end":12672.839,"text":"也希望你回去研擬一下他們發表了這個Make America Healthy Again他就特別做了一個網站他去講他以前這個可能部長你都有看過就是我的餐盤嘛以前他們這個我的餐盤是怎麼樣配置的那他們回顧了這幾十年來所有的流行病學比如說肥胖新陳代謝的疾病糖尿病等等心血管疾病那為什麼他們要做改革"},{"start":12674.16,"end":12688.14,"text":"以前這個餐盤你應該很熟比如說穀物 碳水化合物作為基底那個時候就過度的去強調低脂不攝取脂肪的話很多人就會以精緻的澱粉或糖分來取代脂肪"},{"start":12689.401,"end":12709.497,"text":"結果最後呢這幾十年他們看到了成效沒有那麼好肥胖啊慢性疾病還是急速的在攀升好這個是他們新的他們新的就把原本的金字塔變成一個倒金字塔然後觀念大翻轉比如說吃原型食物他們就不再吃加工品"},{"start":12710.137,"end":12739.355,"text":"那把蛋白質最大化比如說肉類啊然後奶類啊青菜等等放在最上面可是原本我們以為的穀物或者是澱粉是放到最底層非必要的話不攝取並且不再恐懼脂肪他意思是說脂肪裡面分成好的跟壞的所以我們會去擁抱好的油好那我們再回來看一下這個是我們對於我們現在學校裡面小朋友他們的指引"},{"start":12740.848,"end":12766.124,"text":"你可以看到他還停留在剛講的以前那個我的餐盤最下面就是想要小朋友先吃飽所以是以這個主食掛帥然後再來呢你們的蛋白質是講到豆魚蛋肉把肉放在很後面所以這邊你是不是應該要去思考我們要做一下研究肉類的脂肪到底是不是造成小朋友肥胖的主因這邊你回答一下"},{"start":12766.964,"end":12788.097,"text":"跟委員說明過去啊我們國民健康署都會發布國人的每日飲食指引那剛好本來在去年也預告了一版要修那後來呢因為意見還在彙整當中說還沒有發布所以剛好遇到這個美國有這個新的指引出來所以我現在也先把那個指引先"},{"start":12788.757,"end":12800.474,"text":"先hold住重新再找專家那麼也參考了現在新的國際的這些文獻或者是美國的這些指引我們重新再調整一下再來發佈我們2025年的這個"},{"start":12804.419,"end":12828.206,"text":"26年的這個新的這個那我快速給你幾個建議就他們現在呢就是把三角形的最上面放到蛋白質蔬菜還有好油加工食品完全避免糖攝取零容忍然後擁抱天然的脂肪所以我在這邊是希望你可以一個月內給我回覆你會不會來審慎評估美國新指引的這個借鏡"},{"start":12829.656,"end":12849.347,"text":"可以吗可以可以没有问题我们会重新再review因为本来是已经预告过了那现在会再review这是第一个就希望你回顾过去我们这些流行病跟美国一样然后去检讨因为营养午餐免费即将上路那第二个也是一个月内给我报告这个是新加坡的做法"},{"start":12849.907,"end":12876.661,"text":"他們對於這個外面市售的飲料他們會把它分級嘛ABCD A就是糖最少 D就是糖最多所以當他在購買某一個飲料的時候他會發現說這個是什麼顏色他們會教育民眾淺綠色深綠色去拿因為是糖類最少那我舉例比如說小朋友最喜歡喝的美露在新加坡他現在就出了低糖版本所以他會是B級那這個你可不可以也是一個月給我報告"},{"start":12877.942,"end":12903.172,"text":"這個我們來評估因為確實在幾個國家包含澳洲加拿大好像也有幾個國家有這樣的做法但是分法也不一樣不見得像新加坡是用五級有的用三級的什麼不太一樣有的用五級的有的用三級的所以這個分法也不同那國人比較麻煩的是我們很多的飲食不是這種"},{"start":12905.407,"end":12933.352,"text":"包裝式的飲食像比如說是手搖飲或者是路邊攤所以在這個食品的營養標示這個健康標示上面我給你看一下它右邊就是它一些飲料的菜單它也在上面會標示出來這個我們來研究看看怎麼來推廣這個確實是重要這個國人的正確飲食絕對跟健康有好 那就請你一個月內給我剛剛那個"},{"start":12936.173,"end":12942.375,"text":"營養 營養建議然後還有這個營養我們未來整個規劃的方向這兩個報告 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":12968.029,"end":12969.17,"text":"請石部長就今天這個我們要討論這個台灣未來賬戶其實我一直認為就是說我們應該先照顧這個需要被照顧的人那當然就是我們看到這一個"},{"start":12990.104,"end":13015.425,"text":"之前我们卫福部这边也有推一个儿童及少年未来教育与发展账户那这个部分我想请教就是说我们从这个107年到现在这个成果是怎样它的效益是怎样因为这个是针对我们低收跟中低收的这个儿童那你们也将近这个快10年的时间那你们推展的这个效益是怎样"},{"start":13016.156,"end":13044.318,"text":"跟委員說明大概我們所訂的是低收入戶跟中低收入戶的兒少啦18歲以下的那所以目標族群大概差不多6萬人左右那目前已經有開戶的大概是6乘5有開戶那有持續一直在續繳的大概有8乘5也都持續續繳所以目前大概累積在這個賬戶裡面的大概是達到32億左右那6乘5那其他的部分"},{"start":13044.838,"end":13069.848,"text":"其他的部分就是說因為這個因為這個是屬於當然這個開戶第一個關卡是要開戶所以開戶政府就會有1萬塊的開戶那之後呢就是對撥相對應的提撥所以如果這個家長沒有角落的話那政府就沒有這個對應的提撥啦所以我們現在的努力方向當然透過一些社工來幫忙那麼協助開戶"},{"start":13071.409,"end":13096.315,"text":"那第二个就是如果没有继续续缴的了解原因那么社工也尽量来给他们做一些协助那我是不是可以请部长针对这一部分因为低收跟中低收的这些儿少是最需要被协助帮忙的所以如果目前是只有六成五有开户的话我们是不是可以再往前"},{"start":13096.815,"end":13120.69,"text":"就是努力是不是可以再達到八成甚至九成或者百分之百這樣的開花因為確實如果本身這個家庭如果是低收或中低收的話整個經濟狀況其實就很不好有的就是靠政府的這些補助靠這個補助來生活那如果說你要請他額外再提撥這個一萬塊相對我們開戶"},{"start":13124.212,"end":13142.069,"text":"其實對一個家庭來講是有困難那當然就是說我們是不是可以請社工這邊來協助就是說他們有什麼樣的困難那來協助那是不是目前六成五接下來是不是可以達到八成我是不是可以請部長有這樣的一個承諾然後請社工來協助"},{"start":13142.81,"end":13164.421,"text":"好 我們朝這個努力 讓這個覆蓋率可以增加是 好 那接下來就是說我們今天的這個台灣未來帳戶其實這個提出來我也覺得還不錯就是說可以一方面這個只是解決少子化的其中一個項目而已其實少子化不是給錢就可以解決"},{"start":13165.56,"end":13182.07,"text":"部長你認不認同對對完全認同你認同嗎其實我們碰到現在不婚不生的人確實是非常的多那有的經濟狀況也不錯那或者是有結婚他就不想要有小孩所以也不是說給錢他就會想要生"},{"start":13182.91,"end":13211.61,"text":"当然就是说政府如果可以让整个育儿的环境更好那政府也相对提拨一些经费来协助我相信应该也多多少少会有一些协助有一些帮忙那我可不可以请教就是说部长针对因为我一直在问这个少子化所以国人不生小孩这个少子化的这个问题你们有没有特别去分析到底是什么样的原因有 跟委员说明"},{"start":13212.21,"end":13233.992,"text":"大家看到的這個低出生率這是最後的結果但是他背後的分析我們也做過那麼以這個適合生育的年齡的婦女那麼來做分析的話是從25歲到44歲這個族群的婦女因為最主要是適合生育的年齡來做分析在這一個"},{"start":13234.833,"end":13261.682,"text":"这一25岁到44岁的这一群的妇女里面只要有过婚姻不论是现在还是不是婚姻状态那么他的生育率可以高达83到90%而且在过去这10年间的变动不会太大就是说一旦有结婚那么他会有生育那但是反过来如果在这一群里面呢没有结婚的那么他的生育的机会就是小于1%"},{"start":13263.283,"end":13283.659,"text":"那我們再從1990年來看1990年這一個年齡群的婦女沒有結婚的比例大概是21%可是去年已經來到52%所以換句話說台灣的一個少子化問題跟婚育的概念那麼非常高度相關"},{"start":13284.54,"end":13307.093,"text":"所以如果沒有不婚在這段時間不婚的比例越來越高相對的生育率就會一直下降所以我們過去做了很多的努力在希望協助養育生育的家庭但是可能忽略了前面這一段就是婚育概念"},{"start":13308.153,"end":13320.637,"text":"那這個是我們從數據上大概看到這個是另外一個就是讓年輕人敢結婚對所以這個也是未來你們這個需要需要去努力的一個重點對那這個又牽涉到"},{"start":13323.098,"end":13350.759,"text":"我们整个社会的进步那么教育的延长现在就是过去大学毕业之外硕士博士教育的延长还有职场上的友善这些都会影响到婚育所以我想这个是不是只有确实像您提的不是只有钱的问题这个不是只有靠补助就可以完全达到提升的"},{"start":13351.479,"end":13373.984,"text":"我們是希望就是說明年新生兒的出生率不要比去年還要低其實我們看了我們都嚇死了真的在這幾年當中真的是斷崖式的整個人口結構生不如死所以我覺得部長這個應該也是衛福部也是一個跨部會"},{"start":13375.004,"end":13399.414,"text":"非常重要的一個課題所有的這個孩子都是這個國家的未來的一個競爭力如果我們沒有孩子越來越少其實國家的競爭力是會越來越弱所以我希望部長當然我們都會講說希望能夠來解決少子化的這個議題那當然政府在這八年當中也投入了好幾千億也投入了五千多億"},{"start":13401.454,"end":13425.899,"text":"5931億對 5000多億可是我發現這個投入這麼多好像成效也不怎麼樣對不對 部長我們講說這裡面這個5931億裡面85%都是用在0到6歲國家一起養包含生育的補助包含托育補助育兒津貼還有學校教育其實我們投入的"},{"start":13426.539,"end":13450.295,"text":"以0到6歲來講每一個孩子平均是120到180萬不等看他的情況家庭背景跟照顧方式那到底是力度還不夠需要再加強還是像剛剛提到的我們忽略了那個不婚的那一段因為這個不婚率一直在增加所以就造成這個生育率"},{"start":13451.745,"end":13479.696,"text":"就是說有昏的牠的生育率是維持住的只是因為不昏的比例在提高那部長你剛剛講說如果不昏的話從以前21然後現在是到52%那像這樣子的話你們的對策你們有什麼樣的對策嗎如果你知道的好原因是這個那你們有什麼樣的對策嗎這個是整個社會的觀念要去改變這個工程會更大"},{"start":13480.836,"end":13506.249,"text":"你們有想過嗎我們就只在研究找學者 大家在做研究分析也借盡其他的國家還有什麼做法可以來努力好 我們希望就是說今年2026年的出生率不要比2025年還要少我覺得這個部長應該也是你要的守重的一個目標要維持住 然後不能少"},{"start":13507.55,"end":13523.272,"text":"絕對生育率不能少那你剛剛講的這個我們既然知道原因是在哪一部分那你就是要提出一些對策當然不是那麼容易可是我覺得有想有去請專家學者或者是"},{"start":13524.053,"end":13544.297,"text":"找一些人來問看看他們要怎樣才會想要結婚我覺得也許這個也是一個方式就是說想要結婚有什麼樣的動機我們是不是朝著這個方向然後去努力我們各方面都來努力思考這樣好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長下一位我們請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":13556.049,"end":13560.853,"text":"謝謝主席有請史部長請部長賴議員好部長你好我們今天當然主要談台灣未來帳戶重點是希望能夠幫助或者解決不容易解決台灣的人口一直凋零出生率這麼低"},{"start":13584.525,"end":13608.074,"text":"去年2025年 人口多少2025年的全人口不是不是 出生出生出生喔 這十萬七千十萬多一點點那你知道這個2024多少2024喔 那個時候還有十二十三萬多十三萬多2023也十三萬多"},{"start":13613.339,"end":13628.007,"text":"連續兩年都13萬多 一定很悽慘嘛為什麼去年更悽慘一下子從13萬變10萬 等於三成了這個你有沒有想過什麼原因我們現在給你這個少子化的預算"},{"start":13629.288,"end":13655.884,"text":"一直增加欸現在一年的少子化預算多少一千兩百億啊一千兩百億錢給你越多小孩子生越少啊你這個衛福部都不知道要做什麼 不知道代表什麼意思代表你用錯地方啊 錢沒有用到位啊對不對 你要再多錢 我們就願意啊現在大家等於來想辦法怎麼樣 欸 少子化是國安的問題"},{"start":13658.36,"end":13676.034,"text":"現在已經有人預估了按照這樣的趨勢2070年台灣人口2070年很多人不在了2070年台灣的人口只剩1500萬我們現在有多少我們開國閉國獎2300萬2300萬2070年剩下1500萬這很嚴重"},{"start":13684.741,"end":13711.439,"text":"六年 八年來給了快六千億不可謂不多啦去年 一千兩百億你們明年度 就今年的預算變多少也是差不多一千兩百億一千兩百億啊 每年給一千兩百億啊錢 給那麼多效果越來越差 你看斷崖式的 去年十三萬多 今年突 存十萬存十萬啦 想都沒有了"},{"start":13713.137,"end":13739.258,"text":"你們想過原因是為什麼怎麼會今年這麼淒慘到2025年這麼淒慘到底發生什麼事了其實剛剛跟委員說明就是說我們分析從25歲到44歲這一個年齡層的婦女只要有結婚的她的生育率是維持住了那只是說在不婚率的部分一直在提高當中請問你我們現在生第一胎補助多少錢"},{"start":13744.83,"end":13764.48,"text":"我們現在是有各種不同的保險我們現在希望今年有提的這個是希望一律把它補到十萬一台十萬一台十萬十萬也沒多少啦 我跟你講啦我們的出生比例你看一下我的PPT喔"},{"start":13765.794,"end":13790.416,"text":"生第一胎的52%啦第二胎的就生小孩子出來35%生第三胎的10%啦我都認為啊重賞之下必有勇夫啊或者重賞之下必有勇婦啊對不對 大家這樣不跟他說不跟他說一個很重要的你提高誘因可以不可以"},{"start":13791.397,"end":13814.956,"text":"你那個10萬太低了我們現在看關鼓英郎關鼓英郎比如說造風第一胎12萬 第二胎15萬 第三胎18萬這都太少了第三胎啊我到那裡去我都阻擋第三胎100萬起跳哇賽 只有10%而已啊所以10萬只有1萬人100萬就是100億100億啊"},{"start":13821.836,"end":13839.723,"text":"你給他100億就是他一定要生第三個前面的生 你要照樣補助10萬沒關係但是第三個給他100萬能不能理督考慮我來研究看看不是 現在只有10% 只有1萬人而已只有1萬人一個人100萬 那就100億啊我跟你說啦"},{"start":13847.802,"end":13865.789,"text":"我在跑途啊跑行程啊每一次講到說第三胎給100萬的時候掌聲如雷啊好 大家都 你看眼睛一亮啊我現在看幾個女生眼睛都一亮還可以再生啊鼓勵啊 你說可以生到45歲還有人50歲再生的"},{"start":13870.581,"end":13884.869,"text":"對吧 可以控制嗎我們來強化看看在第二胎以後的這個補助措施或者是一些你現在一定要給10萬對不對第二胎起碼要給30萬嘛第三胎你就不給100最少50萬嘛你這樣來說有一點幫助"},{"start":13890.103,"end":13915.883,"text":"會有一點幫助啦今天今天提到因為今天提的未來賬戶是另外一條路我鼓勵你我幫你投資啊幹什麼的可是這導致我沒說我娘這樣對不對你說我0到12歲然後以後18歲可以領第一桶金幾十萬那不如我第一一台我鼓勵生第三個啊鼓勵生第三個你現在第三個你看10%對不對"},{"start":13920.511,"end":13934.967,"text":"這個部長你認真思考好 認真思考第二個問題第二個問題青少年自殺率台灣很高12歲到17歲女性女學生"},{"start":13939.577,"end":13948.885,"text":"自殺率是第一名男生第二名而且進來又上升的趨勢到底是怎麼會自殺的人越來越多為什麼這樣子"},{"start":13953.78,"end":13971.454,"text":"對 確實像委員講的我們也注意到這個現象在這個青年這個青少年的這個自殺率這幾年有一點點緩步上升那我們在這個心理健康師的部分他也有在做深入的研究那跟壓力"},{"start":13972.495,"end":13988.675,"text":"有關係啦 跟課業的壓力跟情緒的處理有關係所以這個可能跟我們現在外在的這個環境還有家庭的你們有沒有成立一個專案去研究一下青少年這個都是國家未來的棟樑"},{"start":13990.057,"end":14015.922,"text":"你整個都自殺了還是到底是怎樣我們整體台灣整體的自殺率是下降的可是青少年是上升的這是很弔詭的事情就是高齡那邊是下降這個族群是上升的所以我們才會提出那個心理諮商方案就是要有管道啦你可不可以去成立一個專案去研究一下我們怎麼樣降低心理輔導因為這個"},{"start":14017.982,"end":14032.57,"text":"這個我看我不要講學校了學校高中生就像跳樓的什麼都有所以我們才會之前提出那個心理諮商那個心理任性的方案就是在針對這個我們再來看看還有沒有什麼可以做得更補強的"},{"start":14034.062,"end":14045.227,"text":"好我給你請回我想請一下那個那個護稅署的署長好不好還有國庫署的馬戶署長請附稅署請國庫署請警管會官員好這個"},{"start":14062.583,"end":14087.719,"text":"先請教宋署長我們如果台灣未來帳戶說為了少數化的問題你護稅署是不是可以對於我們叫沒侵犯就是政府給比如說給一萬每年給一萬我們家長一萬是不是可以免稅報告委員要看是討論什麼稅如果以所得稅來講的話所得稅啊如果以所得稅來講中所稅"},{"start":14092.262,"end":14112.292,"text":"我們就講說像這種所謂存款好了現在我如果把課稅完的所得我拿去做儲蓄我放在銀行的本金我去投資所謂的股票基本上就是一個資金的運用嘛這是所謂所得的運用那基本上都是不能扣這是全世界在綜合所得稅所以你是反對就對了啦"},{"start":14113.733,"end":14129.492,"text":"報告委員這是有一個基本的原則就是你反對啦 這樣不規保我們不規保鼓勵就像一個勞退的概念勞退基金說你提六趴提六趴個人提六趴我們給他免所得稅一樣的概念啊報告委員那個是叫做"},{"start":14130.894,"end":14150.841,"text":"先不課後課我們那個是用先不課簡單講叫延期給付所得的概念所以在你提撥當時因為已經不在你支配範圍叫不進入所得課稅等到以後你領是要課稅的好啦你那個宋署長我知道你意思你反對就對了啦這大家記住喔推動少子化我們希望鼓勵這個政府給一萬我們家長一萬一萬可以扣所得稅宋署長反對"},{"start":14159.406,"end":14161.93,"text":"我們來看今天國安基金要開會"},{"start":14174.053,"end":14195.877,"text":"要開委員會這個國務署的馬副署長你知道這個事吧知道今天是例行就是要開會的時間對那現在指數破3萬店成交量破兆包括上市上櫃加起來過去進場的理由我們這次國安基金已經在裡面多久了"},{"start":14202.764,"end":14212.879,"text":"歷史以來最長的一次過去的理由是關稅台美關稅沒固定大家覺得不貼心心提高國際地緣政治"},{"start":14214.381,"end":14229.033,"text":"這個地方打仗那個地方打仗這兩個條件都沒有喪失所以根據這兩個條件台美關稅沒搞定啊國安基金不應該退場可是大家都知道市場要管的是量不是價"},{"start":14230.814,"end":14253.928,"text":"但是現在成交量都破兆了按照這個理由他就應該要退場可是這兩個你要不要講一下就是說的確就是在川普關稅跟台灣的這個談判還沒有定案所以這部分的不確定因素還在不過就是的確就是最近的成交量是都不上兆"},{"start":14255.489,"end":14270.183,"text":"所以就是說那今天下午我會就是會討論這些然後就是會有一個我請教政經局的那個局長高局長國安基金有沒有在裡面對股市的整個成交有沒有影響"},{"start":14273.811,"end":14285.529,"text":"你是局長欸 你要講話因為國安基金我們就是尊重國安基金的一個操作啊那我們股市就是股市有他的機制在運作這樣所以你不知道"},{"start":14286.974,"end":14313.665,"text":"你要仔細要評估一下要想一下如果國安基金撤了以後對股市有什麼影響你是政局局長這麼大的官因為國安基金我們要尊重國安基金它有一個運作的基礎今天財政部來了官不夠大他不敢講話我剛剛說過了這兩個因素一個應該繼續留著一個不應該留著這個因為我們最近都接到一些電話三萬多點"},{"start":14316.266,"end":14332.53,"text":"這個已經撐這麼久了是不是可以考慮要不要退場但是也有人打電話來說不可以退場 關稅還沒搞定這個地緣政治很危險 這兩個因素都有我聽你們的意見 結果你們都沒有意見 好吧謝謝委員 謝謝官員 下面我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":14346.03,"end":14348.734,"text":"謝謝主席 陽春發言 邀請部長請部長好 陽委員好"},{"start":14354.468,"end":14378.311,"text":"部長好 我們少子化的這個問題已經達到國安以及經濟的危機我們看到2025年新生兒的預估我們要到去年的10月大概9萬多 將近10萬所以我們還是希望能夠有突破11萬人但是我們看到各類的補助 包括你的"},{"start":14379.452,"end":14394.786,"text":"托育津贴延长教保的服务或者是人工生殖法现在有很多的县市也正在补助以及每台10万元的现金补助但是这个都是短暂性的"},{"start":14395.447,"end":14416.812,"text":"都是短暫性或者是一次性短期的一個措施他沒有辦法真正的讓這個人願意去生養所以在這種情況之下你的數字根本沒有回溫到目前為止沒有回溫所以我們現在提到了一個台灣未來的帳戶法案"},{"start":14417.472,"end":14434.292,"text":"希望說從12歲以下的兒童設立專屬的帳號初始就以5萬每一年提撥1萬交給專業的基金來做管理跟協助所以到了18歲他可以累積基本上就有33萬元"},{"start":14435.994,"end":14458.65,"text":"同時當然這個專屬必須要限定它的使用用途它的使用用途就是就學就業執訓創業購屋的自備款跟租屋費跟它相關的我們將這個制度來化為長期投資的方式有別於目前的零散的補助政策"},{"start":14459.551,"end":14476.529,"text":"那我們的目的就是要真正去減輕家庭的一個負擔所以本席要在這邊請教提出了這樣的法案那你是否支持將這個台灣未來帳戶納入你國家少子化整體的一個策略請做說明"},{"start":14477.229,"end":14503.707,"text":"跟委員說明去減少這個育兒家庭的經濟負擔就是我們過去少子女化對策的核心的精神就是在這裡那至於說這個未來賬戶能不能夠達到減輕家庭負擔的目標我們是還有一些疑問因為它是在未來才能使用但是它現在是育兒的經濟壓力那需要先被紓緩不然你這麼說難怪"},{"start":14506.929,"end":14533.114,"text":"那麼跟問題之間能不能夠直接的扣合這我們需要再研究研究你們願意去研究好但是我要告訴你因為你衛福部少子化對策的計畫你從2018年到2025年總共花了多少5931億元5931億元但是你給我們的數字是低減少子化是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14535.205,"end":14549.443,"text":"我們從剛剛本席說的2018年到2025年花了將近6000億的預算這都是人民的納稅錢 你沒有與時俱進所以你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重"},{"start":14551.485,"end":14574.744,"text":"越來越嚴重了是不是如此跟委員說明我們也看到一些細部的資料從25歲到44歲的這個適合生育的年齡的婦女來看那麼他們如果有婚姻的那麼他的這個生育率還是維持在83到90這個過去沒有掉下來我們把它維持住了只不過"},{"start":14575.845,"end":14593.862,"text":"未婚的这一段时间未婚的那他的生育率一直是低于1%而这个未婚率到去年来到高峰是52%所以是因为不婚率上升之后让我们的生育率下降所以在整个政策上需要再去强化我们会来努力"},{"start":14594.062,"end":14608.002,"text":"還好你這一句需要再去強化你也知道問題點在哪裡2018年到2025年我們花了將近6000億的預算你知道問題在哪裡你怎麼去做調整那麼我們已經提出了這個帳戶的台灣未來帳戶法案"},{"start":14610.666,"end":14618.652,"text":"我也希望得到你的一個支持因為你原先從106年開始推動的兒童及少年未來教育與發展的帳戶你從這個收入中低收入戶的孩子以及長期安置的兒少的部分來幫他們存入了第一桶金我希望把這個角色擴大因為我們現在所面臨到的樣態是跟以往不一樣剛剛你所提出的點非常的好"},{"start":14639.367,"end":14657.921,"text":"從一個person提升到52%這個是52倍是非常嚴肅的一個議題所以我希望你能夠採納本席我們中國國民黨所提出的這樣的方案那本席也願意你們好好的去研討我們希望在2018年到2025年花了將近6千億的這個經費你的答案是少子化越來越嚴重所以絕對有必要進行方案這是本席給你建議 是嗎"},{"start":14668.529,"end":14696.839,"text":"好我们会来研究因为我们过去的这个儿少的未来教育及发展账户主要是要克服这个贫穷继承的问题希望他能够脱贫在他成年之后能够脱贫那如何是以弱势优先扩大这个大家都非常的清楚就是你以一个点本席希望点线面去扩大来解决因应少子化的这个问题是"},{"start":14697.319,"end":14702.582,"text":"是 好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝謝謝主席 那也請部長請部長謝謝 今天還是要感謝昭緯 廖昭緯對 部長好 部長辛苦今天還是感謝昭緯把這樣的案排進來讓大家有充分討論的這樣的一個時間跟空間最主要是各位"},{"start":14726.714,"end":14741.141,"text":"委員都可以從各個面向來看待這個要新立的這個法的這個內容然後進而是要來處理基本上就這個目標嘛要處理少子化的這樣的一個問題的存在嘛"},{"start":14742.502,"end":14758.233,"text":"不過就是剛剛在程旭花園的時候特別提到也承諾剛剛楊瓊美所講的就是這個鵝哨的這個發展帳戶就我們在107年的5月正式刪除通過到現在實施也將近8年的時間那有參與的這個鵝哨應該是3萬多那實際上有在這個專路裡面已經有30多億"},{"start":14766.599,"end":14782.818,"text":"那我想他特別的開宗明義的對象就是低收中低收還有長期安置超過兩年以上的兒少那我想在這個部分裡面我們是不是要從這樣的一個立基點然後去做擴充"},{"start":14783.539,"end":14791.361,"text":"然後是用社福的這樣的一個角度去做延伸剛剛我聽到楊委員的說法應該大致上是這個樣子我覺得這個絕對是可以討論的因為有一個基礎在不然我們現在訂一個台灣的未來帳戶然後另外又有這個鵝哨的發展一樣是未來的發展帳戶只不過它的對象一個是全部一個是有特定的對象"},{"start":14808.948,"end":14822.789,"text":"這兩個會造成會有衝突那是不是在這個新的法的部分要不要把這個也納入還是怎麼樣我覺得大家都可以討論也可以給部長還有相關單位來做一個思考這是第一件事情"},{"start":14823.249,"end":14839.295,"text":"那第二件事情可能我們要很細心的來細究我看到有一些相關的資料現在如果照這個版本的規劃好像初期就要高達1180幾億然後如果12年的支出又要高達到2840幾億兩個加起來應該是到4500億左右"},{"start":14846.557,"end":14853.728,"text":"4500之後我們有沒有去推估說因為這樣的一個法律的訂定之後奏效"},{"start":14854.893,"end":14874.032,"text":"熊熊原本是預估12萬今年可能沒有辦法到12萬了對不對去年啦 2014年可能沒辦法到12萬但是因為這樣的一個法律訂定之後刺激了確實有生育率有提升然後他到時候變成13萬 14萬甚至於更高甚至於回到以前有可能20幾萬的那個狀態的情況之下"},{"start":14877.135,"end":14900.258,"text":"那這個法律有什麼樣的一個因應的一個處理的條文在裡面嗎顯然是沒有看到啦 顯然是沒有看到但是我們是朝向好的方向去做思考那萬一錢投入這麼多就像有很多委員講說確實國家在因應少子化相關的政策裡面也投入了相當多的經費但是好像"},{"start":14900.959,"end":14930.199,"text":"好像效益都不是很大那這個情況之下我們是不是透過這個法就可以足以來期待這個生育率可以提升解決少子化的問題我想這個還是一個蠻大的一個問號存在那台灣內亞商戶到底是專門是要對少子化的政策還是我剛剛講的他是要從兒少的這個攝乎的一個政策去做延伸還是他只是一個單純的就金融投資的政策"},{"start":14931.059,"end":14949.256,"text":"川普 川普賬戶 部長應該知道嘛對 那川普賬戶他好像也是一個事辦計畫他好像是從2025到2028針對那個時段出生的嬰兒去做實施事辦那我們現在這個賬戶的草案 台灣未來賬戶的草案顯然是"},{"start":14950.157,"end":14970.204,"text":"顯然就是長期的嘛對不對永續的嘛所以真的很多面相的事情我們必須要去做討論那我在這邊有幾個例子給各位也給部長做參考OECD社會政策分析單純的現金轉移或是家庭津貼對提高生意率有一定正向關聯"},{"start":14972.011,"end":14987.506,"text":"但效果規模有限尤其生育率長期低迷的國家例如日本 韓國當然也包含台灣那我們台灣的中央醫院言之有物的專案中又特別提到現金補助金額要非常高"},{"start":14988.547,"end":15015.533,"text":"才可能看到明顯變化那分析指出只有當今天非常大例如幾十萬甚至幾百萬的規模時才可能對生育決策有較大的影響或者提升的效果還是還是有限的不管是參考國外還是參考我們臺灣自己中研院的這個調查報告那我要去表達就是說我不曉得部長怎麼看待這個事情能不能請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":15018.395,"end":15037.068,"text":"跟委員說明我們本來在推動從106年開始一直以來的這個兒少的未來教育及發展帳戶這個主要是要幫助弱勢家庭不要有貧窮繼承的這個循環下去所以他針對的是這一塊"},{"start":15037.808,"end":15057.301,"text":"那今天看到的這個委員的版本提出來的這個比較像是對於兒童的投資未來的投資但是呢要解決少子化那麼我們就擔心這中間並沒有去扣合到它的效果是不是能夠解決這個少子女的現在這個嚴峻的問題這個是另當別論"},{"start":15061.303,"end":15076.554,"text":"那如果從要解決少子女化的問題來講那顯然的這個育兒的經濟壓力機會成本這個是最重要的考量所以我們過去都是從這個地方去著手"},{"start":15077.054,"end":15094.133,"text":"那雖然過去這幾年我們這個挹注了這麼多的預算那麼生育率不見提升我們還是得檢討那我們現在檢討起來是看到說如果在25歲到44歲這一段年齡的婦女有結婚"},{"start":15095.234,"end":15115.915,"text":"他的生育率是被維持住了沒有下降但是呢不婚的在這段時間沒有結婚的他的生育率很低就是低於1%可是這個比率卻是提高的從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的婦女未婚的大概是21%可是去年來到了52%"},{"start":15117.657,"end":15145.716,"text":"所以會讓整體的生育率下降這個我們分析起來是這樣所以從剛剛委員所提醒的確實第一個要用經濟誘因的話那麼我們的力度還要不要再強化第二個呢台灣的社會的生育跟婚育觀念綁在一起有很大的關聯性所以怎麼樣去鼓勵走入婚姻走入家庭這個是另外一個要去努力的方向"},{"start":15145.916,"end":15160.269,"text":"好我用那麼多時間讓部長好好的說清楚了那我想應該是這樣我是不是可以簡單一個總結嗎部長對這個台灣兒童未來的帳戶的這個草案來講基本上他要讓少子化"},{"start":15161.01,"end":15177.857,"text":"可以明顯的去做改善基本上是還有待商榷啦應該是這麼說啦我講這樣算是很很保守啦也很客觀啦所以我是承諾部長回應我的這種說法那我們很多的育兒津貼坦白講其實這幾年政府也是下注了非常多嘛那實際上"},{"start":15179.598,"end":15205.205,"text":"顯然的效果還是落差值還是蠻大所以還是有很大的討論的空間 檢討的空間我覺得與其要來討論這個帳戶我還是希望可以回歸到我剛剛特別提到舊成本部長所講的107年5月份通過的108年開始實施的這個兒少的發展未來發展帳戶從低收中低收長期安置甚至還有220萬的邊緣戶的家庭"},{"start":15208.126,"end":15224.521,"text":"至今沒有辦法進到這個帳戶裡面我覺得這一個是讓請各位不管再找趙爺爺的委員大家都可以來思考我們如何先來幫助這一群小朋友 寬兒啦寬兒好像是比較呼而他們現在要去訂定這個辦法"},{"start":15226.343,"end":15252.713,"text":"更來的有實質上的幫助跟效益的存在然後至於要如何讓少子化我想另外又是一個廣泛的各個層面各個角度來大家專家學者還有立法院還有行政官員大家坐下來看怎麼樣來設定相關的議題然後來把過去已經實施行之又年的相關的政策再提出來通盤的來分門別列的分組來做相關的討論"},{"start":15253.533,"end":15266.385,"text":"我覺得這對整體的少子化政策應該比較會有實質上的幫助部長你應該可以認同吧非常非常讚同這個委員的這個真知灼見謝謝 謝謝部長你辛苦了你請坐吧 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝部長下一位我們請李彥秀委員發言"},{"start":15285.564,"end":15293.322,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以請時部長跟國發會高副主委請部長跟副主委好 李議員好"},{"start":15294.332,"end":15315.951,"text":"部長好 從署長到部長你的表情越來越嚴肅所以我看得出來其實我們要做的努力其實非常非常多少子女化的問題是我們長期在衛黃文匯關注的議題這絕對不是只有一個衛福部應該努力的方向跨部會大家都應該一起來思考"},{"start":15318.393,"end":15335.463,"text":"賴總統也特別重視少子女化的問題所以我們成立在上一週我們成立了兒少跟家庭支持署在司法法治委員會才剛審查完我們希望透過這些政策來累積更多的資源來對於兒少來有更多的照顧"},{"start":15336.323,"end":15356.57,"text":"但是我們看到這幾年包括內政部在上個星期我們的新生兒114年新生兒的人數從107,812人已經跌破11萬的大關我們原本還預計說龍年龍子龍女會不會多一點可是可見現在龍子龍女好像也失效所以 今年是蛇年"},{"start":15358.61,"end":15381.479,"text":"對 但是前幾年龍年也沒有因為龍年龍子龍女特別多所以連續10年我們新生兒人數持續的探底已經達到生不如死的年代那國發會在113年10月份也公佈所以在113到159的年的人口推估我們的推估的值新生兒的數值是125,526人但是實際上"},{"start":15385.62,"end":15412.005,"text":"我們的人數我們實際生育人數其實還沒有達到12萬可見國發會的人數退估人數比我們本來預估的人數還要多所以可見生育人數是越來越少減少將近14%所以我們少子女化的政策2.0我剛才在辦公室外外特別把你1.0跟2.0拉出來包括剛才劉建國委員也有質詢"},{"start":15413.405,"end":15434.371,"text":"我覺得我們過去這幾年無論是1.0也好 2.0也好我們都著重在生育養育創造更好的懷孕的環境或者是出生兒的環境給大家但是你知道當一個新婚的家庭夫妻也好準備要不要生小孩的時候他不會只有想到"},{"start":15435.171,"end":15450.152,"text":"我懷孕期跟兩三歲或甚至是0到6歲他一定是討論說我們以後要結婚我們大概生幾個他會想到說那個整個孩子成長的過程我們夫妻到底有多少能力去養育這個孩子"},{"start":15451.032,"end":15471.845,"text":"所以我覺得我們在討論未來帳戶的時候不是只有討論事後的補救貧窮或者讓每一個孩子都在同樣盡量拉在同樣的起跑點上我覺得更要去思考的是投資下一代的未來這是我今天我質詢這個重點我要強化的地方那我看到你這1.0跟2.0我覺得都沒有錯但是"},{"start":15475.868,"end":15490.826,"text":"從現在的不婚不生頂客族不婚不生或者是晚婚晚生我就應該分兩大塊不婚不生像我助理很多都已經不婚不生他們都已經決定不婚不生那現在要生要婚"},{"start":15491.627,"end":15508.935,"text":"有沒有可能從一點我生一個我們有沒有更好的誘因去讓他生兩個三個這個可能還容易達到一點不小心又懷孕了一個想辦法養得起這當然都是目標我覺得所以我要講的就是說在政策在工具上我覺得我們應該不斷的去轉換思考換心"},{"start":15512.437,"end":15538.055,"text":"這個不行 這個正式試兩年不行我們要不要再加入什麼樣的工具這個少子女化 我看到那個數據幫我跳一下日本跟韓國你看我們的數據我們亞鄰國家2025年的出生率我們才4.62 每千人我們才4個人4.62人 日本還有5個人韓國有6.7人我們在亞洲國家 我們還是倒數的可見"},{"start":15539.136,"end":15554.336,"text":"我們這些工具我們現在有的1.0或即將有的2.0的政策工具我覺得我不能說不夠好誘因仍舊是不夠的我想部長你承認嘛副主委你也承認嘛這些都是問題"},{"start":15555.417,"end":15570.145,"text":"當我們現在不創新去做更多工具的處理的時候未來我們可能都要花更多的資源去做投資譬如說勞參率10年20年之後我們人在哪裡不要講現在各行各業都找不到工現在這個年代都已經找不到工"},{"start":15570.965,"end":15586.433,"text":"更何況10年 20年後你醫生 你現在醫生也在缺工對不對 你醫生以後要難道引進外國人來當醫生嗎就是這個可能又是很大的挑戰所以我覺得我們在討論未來帳戶的時候我覺得不應該只去思考到"},{"start":15587.613,"end":15606.893,"text":"錢的部分因為我們在投資未來這個是我要我覺得我要提醒你觀念應該要調整的地方所以創新的作為是事實上是有必要的那去年人力網站澄清調查家庭總收入至少要花到要有足夠11.3萬元才有能力養一個孩子"},{"start":15607.313,"end":15624.743,"text":"也就是說夫妻平均的月薪要達5.6萬元才養得起孩子那也高於主計總出估的4.78萬所以我們當我們在做一些政策的時候我們去預估夠可是事實上外面的通膨各方面孩子還有後面的什麼"},{"start":15626.624,"end":15642.06,"text":"補習還有什麼學習歷程要去做培養那個額外的經費都是我們現在我們到我們這個年紀我們可能想像不到新的育兒的那些費用不斷的在增加所以舊的方法是做不出新的結果"},{"start":15643.76,"end":15659.909,"text":"所以我覺得我們不應該是說排斥性的去做哪些事情而是我們要認真去思考每一個政策我們去做研究評估它未來它可能10年20年後它可能帶給我們的效應是什麼我們這個政府不是只在解決現在這4年的問題"},{"start":15662.321,"end":15679.897,"text":"我們也要為未來多留一點我們的基底平常我們之前台積電不是二三十年前我們有台積電如果過去沒有投資台積電的話怎麼會有現在的護國神山所以我們在為台灣投資未來這是我們現在身為政務官我們行政部門應該要做的地方"},{"start":15682.235,"end":15693.83,"text":"你們剛才劉建國委員也有質詢到我們現在有一個我們現在當然也有發展帳戶發展帳戶其實不是不好而是我們現在開辦8年來我們整體的開戶率只有65%"},{"start":15695.913,"end":15723.897,"text":"公司也有提醒說做一個期末報告提醒說現在包括低收入戶也好中低收入戶也好就是說大家沒有進來投資最主要的原因是達到31.67跟39.86最主要是他們覺得沒有錢可以儲蓄就是說即便政府投第一桶金他沒有配合款可是憑良心講我覺得這都可以有配套措施我先幫你投一點未來用什麼樣的方式我當你因為"},{"start":15724.477,"end":15739.915,"text":"他可能過幾年他可能條件突然好或者是我現在沒問題我過幾年我可能我的家庭收入又有問題就是那條線有時候會是移動的所以我更認為有政策工具可以去做處理這不是不能解決的事情"},{"start":15741.141,"end":15768.443,"text":"因为一个家庭的总收入其实是跟着父母的工作情态状况家里的有一些变化的因素都是滚动式的做调整所以当我面对那么多的不确定性的时候我很难去下定决心新婚夫妻或年轻的夫妻去敢去生第二个第三个但是当我很明确看到十年二十年之后我只要养到高中"},{"start":15769.344,"end":15784.438,"text":"高中畢業之後我政府有第一桶金放在那邊他要出國留學他要自己念大學都擺在那邊了所以那個給家長足夠的信心你知道嗎因為我們義務教育到高中所以我覺得"},{"start":15785.799,"end":15808.385,"text":"不要去摒除就是說國民黨藍白的這些草案一定不好我們背後的思考而且這些背後的思考也都有其他國際的研究來去佐證來支持我們這個法案所以我才希望說不要去想說這是藍綠的法案而是這個是拯救我們台灣少子女化未來的一個法案所以我希望用這樣的心情"},{"start":15809.145,"end":15819.926,"text":"思維去考慮這個未來帳戶現在兒少發展帳戶隱含著你要為自己投資未來你要自己先負責所以你要自己先投政府才投"},{"start":15821.604,"end":15845.619,"text":"中低收入家庭他根本連自己都拿不出來他怎麼你政府投多少他都沒有那個錢頭連現在都每個月可能補習費都付不出來沒有辦法讓孩子去補習了更何況他要再去拿錢出來跟你投資我想你同意你應該同意了解我的說法所以社公司我也已經看了社公司對於國際研究也有指出對於家庭跟兒童"},{"start":15847.14,"end":15867.482,"text":"如果做一個未來賬戶的話對於很多家庭跟兒童的養育或教育或照顧的話我覺得會產生更多的正面的影響如果我們有一桶金擺在那邊我家長堅持我就是養到高中大學孩子自己去處理或者是我們有第一桶金擺在那邊給他一個未來"},{"start":15868.683,"end":15893.427,"text":"那咬著牙身為父母都會堅持下去我覺得這樣子的態度對於很多想生第二個想生第三個他們就會好吧咬牙咬著牙一起咬著牙一起辛苦一點一起所以我覺得朝這方面去做更多的思考所以我也要提醒部長你們在這段時間我看不斷對外放話說未來賬戶初期的經費就超過已經超過1185"},{"start":15897.529,"end":15921.001,"text":"如果每年再提拨1萬到12歲的話12年要2844億元總共需求你們對外不斷的放話是4030億元但是我要提醒的就是說每一年事實上首年需要比較高的啟動資金外其餘都是12年分年編列當我們都可以花1.25兆買軍購的武器"},{"start":15925.005,"end":15947.791,"text":"當這些武器沒有年輕人才去做操作買那麼多武器怎麼去處理所以我覺得不能只看現在很多事情應該去投資長遠所以我要再次強調事後補救我們少子女化補救貧窮不是不需要當然要我們現在一直在做"},{"start":15948.251,"end":15966.589,"text":"但是少子女化的問題很顯然我們這些政策工具沒有辦法處理所以要有創新的思維事前投資下一代改善家庭 改善夫妻對於養育的更多正向的思考國際上有研究我想你有看到所以不要排斥它"},{"start":15967.25,"end":15987.067,"text":"你一直点头代表你同意我的说法吗我都很同意的就是说从儿童投资的角度来投资未来投资儿童这个是值得去研究所以会不会因为这些政策也因为这些政策让夫妻愿意多生第二个第三个我觉得要朝这方面去思考"},{"start":15987.788,"end":16004.097,"text":"那我覺得我們現在政府不是只處理這四年的事情我們也要為未來去做更多的打算當沒有勞參率都沒有人要進來當軍人都沒有人操作這些武器不要講防衛國家任性台灣都變成寒假了"},{"start":16005.225,"end":16023.403,"text":"要人才有辦法操作才有人上班才有人養就是我們社會責任下一代我們才有人照我們不斷的社會式的滾動我覺得這都是需要做更長遠的思考以上 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝部長接下來我們請廖偉祥召委"},{"start":16036.253,"end":16046.665,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們石部長以及我們這個國發會副主委請部長副主委廖委員好"},{"start":16048.106,"end":16063.434,"text":"想要先請教一下部長今天這個議題是蠻嚴肅的那想要請教一下部長今年是10.7萬那你們過去總共花了8年花了多少錢在嫂子女的預算上5931億那連年跌下來那請教一下"},{"start":16070.08,"end":16095.187,"text":"你認為這個問題嚴不嚴重嚴重啊很嚴重嗎對請國發會主委請問這個副主委高副主委你覺得嚴不嚴重這對於國家未來當然嚴重因為影響整個人口結構非常嚴重是不是有沒有到非常嚴重我覺得他是一個很重要力氣對國家未來發展包含勞動力包含未來基本上我想要跟大家說明一下這個Elon Musk就是特斯拉執行長"},{"start":16096.007,"end":16122.256,"text":"他最近就說他最近也公開對於南韓的生育率表示很驚訝他還警告如果南韓的生育率持續的低迷未來南韓甚至不需要北韓的這個發動戰爭他人口崩潰就會直接讓這個國家從地圖上消失那之前他對於台灣也有評論過沒有新生兒就沒有文明而且我們的這個出生率是更比比起韓國怎麼樣"},{"start":16123.823,"end":16145.234,"text":"比前面怎麼樣更糟糕這次是不是更糟糕算是最低了是吧部長要不要這個部長回應一下吧這個差不多了我們跟這個南海韓這兩個國家是是不是算是全球非常低最低可是可以說最低對啦對比南韓糟糕吧"},{"start":16146.78,"end":16166.338,"text":"正確的數字還沒看到啦那如果是以剛剛已經有很多數據出來啦對啊是吧因為南韓的數據我們還沒看到那是不是已經現在算是前年的話是所以我們比我們差一點啊但是常常網路上說真的好想您南韓啊我們現在的出生率真的贏他了最低啊非常的糟糕"},{"start":16167.399,"end":16174.773,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長請問一下你對於過去我們的執政黨花了5931億達到這樣的成績你打幾分"},{"start":16179.324,"end":16198.013,"text":"我覺得我們過去我們也算過這5930億裡面的84%都用在0到6歲那每一個家庭我們認為這個挹注是不是不夠我們要再思考啦所以我想問的是你打幾分成績一直低落身為一個執政黨要負責吧對吧"},{"start":16198.653,"end":16218.634,"text":"對於這樣子的事當然你是剛剛當部長沒有多久但是身為一個執政黨一個政府應該要負責吧我們沒有要黨派喔這是如果一個公司的CEO讓他的公司這個所有的表現一直越來越差誰要負責CEO要負責是不是那執政黨是不是要負這個責你們的你對於這樣的表現到底你打幾分"},{"start":16219.475,"end":16237.283,"text":"我想我們還有努力的空間我們不應該給自己打分數但是我們要持續的努力這個還有很大的部長如果不願意面對就是不敢打分數不願意面對就不會解決問題今天很多人說這個多久以前提過然後這個有相關的法案"},{"start":16238.323,"end":16259.681,"text":"但是我們在這段時間審法案以來就知道沒有壓力你們根本就是在拖嘛一直在拖嘛沒有想要給一個方向沒有想要有創新的思維那今天就又說我們要再演繹要再花多少時間幾場公聽會我不知道我們國家還有幾年可以再等喔真的我不知道我非常語重心長喔"},{"start":16261.331,"end":16287.921,"text":"所以今天我可能要主席要多花一點時間喔就是其實我想要跟你說我們現在是不是可以好好討論嘛大家都想要好好討論嘛所以本席就靠這個時間來好好的講而不是用一些知諱末節想要拖延大家來面對這件事情或者是不去做結構性的改變不去做創新的方式你們沒有任何創新的方式就只有一直這樣子下去啊那你再補多少錢進來都不夠嘛對吧"},{"start":16289.662,"end":16300.567,"text":"那你也沒辦法一次補到位所以我必須說現在我們少子化對策其實是過度依賴短期的所得維持的手段所得維持的手段因為"},{"start":16302.059,"end":16322.499,"text":"因為我沒有否認像我也贊同部長說的現在的每一分錢我覺得花在都是必要的支出可是你沒有解決問題啊所以你需要雙軌甚至是另外的思維也必須把這個所謂的面對資產價格膨脹或者是階級固化的結構性的挑戰其實你單純的這個給付這個"},{"start":16325.942,"end":16346.364,"text":"這個過去的手段是沒有辦法對於年輕世代未來經濟沒有辦法解決他們對於未來經濟的深層焦慮喔所以今天我們討論這個TFA就是台灣未來賬戶其實我們想要表達的事情是這樣子的模式是希望透過政府早期介入跟長期的複利效應"},{"start":16347.85,"end":16360.798,"text":"旨在要為每一位台灣的兒童建立起起碼的資本存量這不僅是教育基金他更希望可以破除現在的這個代季的貧窮循環的關鍵問題"},{"start":16364.471,"end":16383.707,"text":"所以我想要說其實我們要將這個預算從消耗性的支出的思維的思維轉化成這個資本性的投資希望可以讓這個社會的投資報酬在未來是可以回來的所以我們的概念應該是叫做為我們國家的下一代為他們存股"},{"start":16385.123,"end":16413.39,"text":"國家為了下一代存固這樣子的一個戰略的思維所以我想我想要回應一件事情大家在拖在想說沿路討論其實已經討論很久了所以維持現狀其實就是現在最大的財政風險維持現狀就是現在最大的財政風險所以我們進一步來看現在我們的社會結構雙重危機我會稍微快一點極端的財富分配不均以及崩潰的出生率"},{"start":16415.037,"end":16440.737,"text":"所以我想要說一件事情就是過去這段時間以來喔台灣的我想要請教一下你們知不知道現在貧富差距變多少有不同的算法一個是前20%跟後20%66.9倍我講給你聽啦但是如果依照過去這個民進黨在執這個執以馬政府時期的用前5%後5%你知道多少嗎"},{"start":16441.84,"end":16444.946,"text":"那個是財稅資料嗎對對所以150倍對150倍對不對對嘛你要不要回答一下是不是"},{"start":16449.977,"end":16474.797,"text":"好你們不知道但是我不想在這糾纏喔就是這個數字因為你剛剛也點頭所以事實上我們希望做到的事情其實剛剛這個我想部長也有講到為什麼你說這個現在少子化你們去研究他們從這個你覺得現在主要原因是不渾嘛是不是不渾那不渾背後的深層的考量是什麼這個還要再進一步研究啦"},{"start":16476.093,"end":16490.226,"text":"我跟你說啦數據的統計分析現在我們少子化的國安危機是從不想生到養不起到你剛說的不敢婚就是不婚不敢婚所以他背後有很大的一個因素是經濟的不安全感"},{"start":16491.806,"end":16507.271,"text":"你們過去投資了這麼多你已經投資了5931億了結果他們是很多的調查或者是網路的輿論也都表示年輕人不敢婚不生的核心原因不是因為討厭小孩是深層的經濟恐懼他擔心一個是階級複製的焦慮"},{"start":16513.413,"end":16542.743,"text":"一個是育兒成本的長期性他不只是短期你補貼他這些短期的消費他對於他長期包含教育居住創業等等高昂的資本支出他是一個長期投資他都覺得你現在的這個每個月多少錢他算是杯水車薪啊所以你現在的補貼政策你頂多叫做給他一個起碼生存的生存的一個重點而已你只是給他一個起碼最低最低位所以你沒有辦法刺激到他想生嘛"},{"start":16544.443,"end":16568.384,"text":"對不對好 下一頁好 再下一頁所以其實剛剛有提到不敢生不敢婚剛剛當然包含這個經濟的問題包含了居住正義的問題但是今天不展開居住正義我們就回來這裡嘛剛剛就講所以你們過去投資了5931億結果全國最低這就是現在的成果所以你要面對啊部長你要打分數啊完全不及格啊花了這麼多錢那下一頁"},{"start":16570.367,"end":16598.716,"text":"好 所以剛剛也有講到基本上都是用這種所謂的補貼思維在做那我們不是否認補貼 補貼要持續做可是你一定要有創新的角度來切入嘛所以這就是我們講的 過去你是一個消費型的補貼你缺乏了負力思維 甚至你有可能資源錯置因為審計部的報告也指出許多計畫的項目執行率低甚至淪為所謂大傻逼 缺乏戰略高度"},{"start":16600.6,"end":16606.59,"text":"所以這個部分真的要給你們好好的建議好好的討論針對這個你有沒有什麼想要表達的"},{"start":16609.291,"end":16631.084,"text":"對 這個確實我們要有更開創性的思考沒有錯是 所以今天我們就要跟你討論這個開創性的思考所以台灣未來賬戶我覺得不要覺得說是哪一個政黨提出或是不是執政黨提出就不想接受我覺得大家今天真的也是我也覺得大家都很關心我們大家就好好討論所以我們進入細節譬如說這個基本上我們政策核心架構"},{"start":16632.265,"end":16648.232,"text":"TFA提出的我想不僅是一個福利政策啦我們更也是一個整體戰略思維的金融工程我們也希望透過這樣子的力量來解決社會問題那當然包含這上面有的適用對象啊0到12歲啊台灣的孩童大概是226萬"},{"start":16650.58,"end":16665.983,"text":"那普遍性的福利也會打破所謂排富條款標籤化的效應喔這個也是一個可以思考的點因為你們剛剛一直會說是不是要把錢只放在什麼中低收入戶啊低收入戶啊等等的其實等一下也會討論到目前成效就是不好"},{"start":16666.704,"end":16692.818,"text":"對吧 成效就不好然後再來就是政府提撥嘛當然就是有個啟動資金剛剛很多委員也講到可能啟動資金稍微高一點1100多億可是憑良心講啊你們在補貼電費這個想要補貼台電隨便也是兩三千億然後買這個軍購也是隨便一開就1.25兆我實在是沒有辦法想說為什麼這1000多億你覺得投資在我們台灣的下一代會覺得好像沒有錢或是做不到"},{"start":16693.658,"end":16710.823,"text":"然後第三個點是家長提撥他是自願性質的不是說強制要求他提撥而且他也有額度的上限那再來資金的管理是中央集中管理我覺得就是類似我們可以比照一下勞退基金的模式"},{"start":16711.303,"end":16732.305,"text":"那投資標的當然就是追蹤這個比較大型的好這穩定的也不會說被說什麼個股操作的風險他就是等於是跟著金融市場在成長的情況之下去去做成長好所以還有最後當然有個提領的限制那這個部分當然很多細節我認為都可以開放式討論找出更佳的方案"},{"start":16733.308,"end":16754.47,"text":"好那所以我就要進一步講一下不知道這個部長有沒有知道過去台股歷年喔因為你們大家會講說當然有高高低低啦會有高高低低有時候這個賺多一點有時候賺少一點有時候虧錢可是其實我們要用長遠來看我想這個勞保基金也都是這樣講所以歷年來他平均的利潤是多少"},{"start":16756.224,"end":16772.74,"text":"這個我沒有在買賣股票對好你不知道嘛那我這裡就給你看嘛其實基本上如果是悲觀的情境4.0%好那這是大概悲觀的情況是4%那如果複利下去的話可能是24.5萬"},{"start":16774.582,"end":16791.258,"text":"那再來保守情境就是好一點 5.9%那最後就是可以是大概28萬那再來當然也有算法是可能33.9萬 56萬那中立的話是8%那如果用現在台股過去的歷史平均11.9%如果他這個當時都參與進去的話他現在是有85萬"},{"start":16797.643,"end":16822.171,"text":"對 那當然這是歷史數據我們就是深刻討論所以即使在最保守的情境之下18歲時累積的近30萬的資金對於富裕家庭他可能是 當然可能是零用錢但對於弱勢家庭的青年他這筆錢是有可能改變他的命運的資金他也足夠可能支付他的學費 生活費或者是作為這個技職創業的第一筆資金"},{"start":16823.971,"end":16835.89,"text":"而且更重要的是什麼如果他台股維持歷年的歷史表現的話他的這個資金是徹底改變一個年輕人的起跑點他可能不會一出社會就背負學債"},{"start":16837.782,"end":16853.688,"text":"甚至他如果沒有家長可以給他一個什麼房屋的頭期款他這個部分他也可以去做那他有個房現在剛剛講你不敢婚嘛不敢婚背後就當然就是他可能買不起房然後婚了之後他可能養不起家嘛這是一個也很大的因素"},{"start":16854.648,"end":16866.085,"text":"所以我想我們今天要討論的就是說我們這個制度的設計的創新啦我們希望從這個消費型的福利轉向投資型的福利的概念思維的轉變我們要從救濟變到投資"},{"start":16870.251,"end":16885.47,"text":"因為傳統社福可能一直是比較屬於是補貼給魚吃那這個現在的這個設計是希望也給他一個釣竿給他資本把兒童視為國家未來資產而且而不是財政的負擔因為你們一直在講類似財政的負擔"},{"start":16886.511,"end":16913.602,"text":"那再來另外一個觀念就是從短期到長期我們要跳脫年度預算的短視其實它是一個長期承諾那當然這個具有一定的挑戰性那對於國家發展但是它至關重要剛剛講到非常嚴重未來沒有人再參與在這個市場上我們等於是沒有文明那當然再來就是一個金融的包容性因為要透過國家的力量要讓這個原本被排斥在金融市場之外的弱勢兒童能夠"},{"start":16914.722,"end":16934.142,"text":"零門檻的參與資本市場享受經濟成長的紅利這也是為什麼我們剛剛前面要提到貧富差距越大是因為真的有參與這樣所謂的金融市場的太少了嗎太少所以這段時間貧富差距變成150倍是誰的錯我覺得就是政府沒有想到這樣子的事情的錯好再來"},{"start":16938.479,"end":16962.925,"text":"我想我們剛剛講到也有一直有人講到說現在衛福部就有相關的這個計畫啦那我就想要告訴你們說現在目前為止從數據顯示他的局限性開戶率的瓶頸8年的推廣到2024年底開戶率66%嘛那代表說有三成多的小朋友需要的弱勢兒童根本沒有被覆蓋到"},{"start":16964.724,"end":16979.327,"text":"再來存款的中斷率高即使開了戶也常常有發生家庭的這個經濟結局斷供雖然所以其實這還是一個很大的問題再來是資金規模的限制那這都是現在"},{"start":16980.248,"end":16994.62,"text":"主要你們存在所謂的這個定存利息所以你們沒有投資增值的功能所以在通膨環境下他基本上他在錢放在那裡是被吃掉的所以我想這個你們應該都要知道應該都要去檢討"},{"start":16996.209,"end":17024.603,"text":"那再來剛剛有一隻有講可能有人我們當然可以討論你怎麼排富要不要排富可是我想要說其實現行的制度你在做這樣子的事情的時候你也有一個副作用什麼樣的副作用呢有三個第一個是標籤化的效應其實申請該帳戶等於是某種程度上也會承認自己是貧戶啊對於有一些邊緣戶或者是邊緣戶你覆蓋不到之外自尊心強的家庭也可能就沒有就會卻步他可能就不參與"},{"start":17026.594,"end":17040.7,"text":"所以你基本上你福利未達再來第二個貧窮陷阱我想這也不用多贅述第三個還有一個龐大的行政積合成本所以你們之前做很多事就是就是這個部分也是要考量的所以"},{"start":17041.42,"end":17064.453,"text":"總而言之我想還是一樣現行的制度是一個救助思維的產物你僅能夠說勉強維持底線但是我們今天討論的TFA台灣未來賬戶它是一個發展思維的產物我們希望能夠為所有的兒童創造向上流動的動力這兩個層次是不一樣所以我認為它不要互相排擠"},{"start":17065.433,"end":17082.222,"text":"那你應該要開創新的思維所以剛剛其實後來也有講到譬如說也有講說英國英國有做為什麼它取消了我想這個就是你們要去用功一下大家用這個來用短暫的去說因為英國失敗我們就不該做是不對的它為什麼錯"},{"start":17083.443,"end":17104.816,"text":"為什麼他做不下去他的管理是去中心化的英國政府他發放貸金券讓家長自行去銀行或投資機構開戶結果導致市場碎片化家長面臨選擇困難高昂的手續費他賬戶分散在私人金融機構管理成本非常的高昂機構也收取高額的管理費可能有1.5%嚴重的侵蝕獲利還有一個是賬戶休眠截至2023年他聽說有17億的英鎊"},{"start":17111.98,"end":17128.397,"text":"約680億的台幣的資金沒有人認領近百萬的年輕人也錯失了這筆錢再來一個是金融素養的落差啦富裕家庭他可能選擇股票型的基金報酬高那貧窮家庭就是選擇現金存款報酬又低所以這也是他發生的問題好下一頁"},{"start":17129.864,"end":17154.209,"text":"所以當然我們可以去我們現在的設計就是希望說去這個針對他的去中心化跟遺失去做補強所以類似勞退一樣如果他像最近勞退表現不是特別好嗎10幾%平均10幾%那真的是對他們來講是很好的一件事情那再來針對投資落差所以你可以追蹤大盤指數確保他們享有相同的投資報酬率"},{"start":17155.67,"end":17175.455,"text":"下一頁當然我們也要參考一下新加坡的兒童培育戶頭他可能還更靈活一點點這個我們未來都可以去檢討不過這裡時間因素我就不贅述所以這是幾個國家目前有的東西的比較如果到時候部長你們需要的話我再提供給你們下一頁再下一頁沒關係"},{"start":17178.393,"end":17186.888,"text":"好所以剛剛有講到如果說是接近勞退基金的模式的話事實上很多的問題是可解決的好那下一位好"},{"start":17191.001,"end":17213.526,"text":"好 所以基本上我們希望的目標是為台灣下一代建立一個國家級股東的身分我們希望國家幫你養孩子也幫孩子存未來這是我們希望的事情那請部長你們不要一開始就抱持著一個說這個好像很多問題不去做的態度因為剛剛你們的報告大概都是長這個樣子都是這個態度我認為你們既然也都覺得"},{"start":17214.846,"end":17234.277,"text":"這個問題非常嚴重請你們用開放的思維然後好好去研究國際的經驗失敗的我們也學習不要人家覺得失敗你就不做成功的我們也借鏡好不好部長可以嗎那你什麼時候可以有你們的一個報告或者是版本我們盡快在一個月內也提出我們的分析好謝謝謝謝昭偉謝謝部長"},{"start":17242.839,"end":17244.882,"text":"下一位請李坤城委員發言好謝謝主席我們請時部長請部長"},{"start":17264.639,"end":17282.118,"text":"好 李委員好部長好 辛苦了今天在討論這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例那我看他的這個說明裡面說要解決少子化的問題那也要投資下一代但是實際上兩個問題都沒辦法去處理所以他是問對了問題但是拿錯了藥方"},{"start":17285.521,"end":17300.249,"text":"那我看了一下 他這個是長達18年長達18年的一個資產的累積 18歲之後才可以用那所以他沒有辦法減輕家長目前的負擔那也沒有辦法去提升這個生育的一個意願第二個就是說"},{"start":17301.249,"end":17321.65,"text":"他的條例呢 他沒有排富的設計那所以呢 會使得這個高所得的家庭呢可以自己提款 或是說雇主的一個補助進一步的累積資產 然後形成了逆向的補貼的效果會讓這一個富者越富 貧者越貧所以也沒有達到說 這一個要投資下一代的一個效果"},{"start":17322.25,"end":17349.677,"text":"那當然啦我們這個衛福部目前有所謂的一個兒少教育發展專一個帳戶那這個帳戶呢用意也是良好但是效果不好效果不好從這個2017年到現在的這段時間以來我們的這個開戶率是多少65%左右然後呢我們的開戶的人數大概才三萬六千多三萬九千多"},{"start":17352,"end":17372.716,"text":"整個數量還是很少啊就是說我們希望達到這個協助孩子脫貧那所以呢我們希望說他未來長大之後呢不要形成這個貧窮的代監的一個循環那可是呢你說這個18歲18年的時間一年最多才3萬嘛對不對"},{"start":17374.718,"end":17394.928,"text":"一年最多三萬 政府最多一萬五然後呢 家長最多也是一萬五一年最多三萬 18年就五十四萬五十四萬啦 18年之後你被通膨就不知道吃掉多少了所以他其實是 好像是幫你儲蓄但是他是存了一個是死錢他沒有投資的一個概念"},{"start":17397.009,"end":17421.944,"text":"有些委員提到就是說有希望有說像什麼轉大人ETF那個就具有投資的概念當然有一些條款還要再去做考論就是說我們的這個兒少的這個教育發展帳戶他只是幫你存錢但是存了54萬你說要幫他脫貧其實效果也是有限那你說這個要投資下一代要投資他54萬其實老實講"},{"start":17423.985,"end":17450.785,"text":"他沒有什麼投資的一個作用因為他就是沒有 因為他就是存 他不是投資他就是存一個死錢 那利率就是這麼低那所以到目前為止大家也談了這麼多了那如果我們先用現在衛福部現在正在推動這個兒少教育發展帳戶來講的話有什麼需要檢討的 可以改進的現在按照這個條例來做"},{"start":17453.318,"end":17469.798,"text":"跟委員幫我們現在也在檢討從三個方面去思考第一個就是說你怎麼去擴大適用的對象因為我們目前鎖定的低收入跟中低收入整個含納進來對象不過6萬人左右所以如何讓能夠照顧的人更多所以你們照顧的對象"},{"start":17472.741,"end":17501.2,"text":"社會對象會增加到什麼樣的範圍往邊緣戶就是擴大那個這個就是在邊緣的這個弱勢家庭增加多少人人數上的話大概會可以擴大到24萬大的話總人數可以到現在是6萬嘛可以有4倍就是差不多24萬這個是人數的擴大第二個是說能不能挹注多一點對啊最多政府一年就"},{"start":17502.44,"end":17525.891,"text":"1.5萬嘛對對對能不能多一點比如說我們去提高對波的相對的比例還是怎麼樣這個是第二個考量那第三個當然就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化然後更多的輔助讓他可以延續這個這個儲蓄這樣開戶因為我們現在開戶沒有那麼高那我怎麼來協助他讓我們的行政的程序更簡化"},{"start":17526.491,"end":17542.824,"text":"你們自己有委託這個學術單位做一個研究報告你有沒有看過那個研究報告有有有那個研究報告我看過我問一下現在是一戶只有一個小孩可以開戶嗎就是說符合資格的沒有只要符合資格有幾個每個都可以每個都可以就自己一個獨立的"},{"start":17543.544,"end":17568.963,"text":"不是自動開戶不是說符合資格就自動開戶沒有你自己要去申請對要申請那這個也是研究報告裡面提到就是說這個為什麼開戶率這麼低不高六成五的原因就是說他不是這個自動幫你開戶你符合資格了我就幫你開戶然後我錢就存進去沒有我自己還要去我自己還要去申請嘛對不對那如果改成用這個自動開戶的方式"},{"start":17571.415,"end":17598.615,"text":"這個申請率會再提高嗎因為你就算你範圍有擴大了你說從6萬變成24萬那搞不好開戶率還是那麼低啊能照顧的還是有限啊這個行政程序上我們會來檢討他們到底是要簡化程序還是說要改成變成是我們自動幫他開戶這也是簡化程序的一種啊這個也可以討論現在還沒有定案就對了還沒有定案但是如果自動開戶是不是會比較好一點"},{"start":17599.915,"end":17614.325,"text":"有利有弊啦因為這後續他還是要去存的當然要去存啊要讓他知道有這個戰後的存在那就是說政府先幫你存了嘛也不是說政府幫你存了那你不存你們現在的條例是說政府幫你存你不存你也是沒辦法領出來的啊"},{"start":17614.965,"end":17634.274,"text":"對就是開戶金我們也許可以思考怎麼讓他簡化一點或者是自動的幫他開了讓他知道我覺得那個比例你們自己要去算一下當然你提高政府的補助那對於相對貧窮這些家庭來講他也不一定有這些錢能夠相對投入"},{"start":17635.254,"end":17661.655,"text":"我覺得這個當然你們要去提到這個要去思考一下那不過就是說不論是我看這一個他們提出來這個條例裡面他們講到韓國的例子香港的例子其實都是排富的他們其實都是針對弱勢需要照顧的人來提出來的那香港他的這個兒童發展基金他還特別把商界把它加進來說政府家庭把商界把它加進來"},{"start":17662.435,"end":17684.292,"text":"就是說這個等於是除了政府家庭相對提撥之外他們民間可能都很有愛心 台灣也是一樣那他們把這個商界的錢也把它加進來所以他們這個餅就會做大了那未來有沒有機會朝向這個方式來做處理那鼓勵的這些企業當然我們就睡這方面我們給予看怎麼樣去做解免或是怎麼樣的"},{"start":17685.393,"end":17699.869,"text":"如果是只針對這一群比較弱勢者然後讓民間也可以去藝術他然後得到一些付稅的優勉這個我們可以來研究我們現在有這樣子鼓勵民間投入嗎因為我看就是只有政府跟家庭沒有把民間的力量拉進來"},{"start":17701.651,"end":17717.245,"text":"沒有跟這個帳戶結合確實是這樣我認為是可以結合因為其實民間都有這個愛心你看每次遇到什麼樣社會上的一些這個臨時有什麼樣的一些變化天災地變等等台灣人都很有愛心要捐錢你如果今天跟這些"},{"start":17718.226,"end":17734.246,"text":"企業獎就是說這個你我們現在有一些這些孩子要照顧那是不是你企業可以也一樣我們也相對提撥一些錢進來那我們在賦稅上面可以做一些減免把這個base把它做大把它這個餅做大我覺得你們也就討論一下"},{"start":17736.308,"end":17764.73,"text":"我們研究好之後再來提出那個修法這個就必須要涉及到修法就是說我現在先用你們這一個發展條例來做這一個以這個來做一個討論的基礎還有就是說講到投資其實你們的這個條例裡面其實都沒有投資的這個概念完全沒有就是說像這個香港或是韓國他們其實都還有理財不管是理財還是理債就是說你讓小孩子從小"},{"start":17765.33,"end":17784.311,"text":"就是有這個概念就是說我怎麼樣把我這個錢未來有這個機會讓它能夠增加這個教導小孩子理財或是理債的概念其實要從小就要開始不是當然你說玩不玩股票那是另外一回事但是你要知道說這個股票或是說基金或是怎麼樣"},{"start":17784.992,"end":17813.021,"text":"是他們未來是可以投資的一個標的你要先去理解再決定你要不要嘛但是我們的這個條例裡面其實沒有因為我們是儲蓄我們不是投資我看到我們這個條例裡面其實就是沒有因為你五四萬也不可以做什麼投資啊我覺得這方面要做處理好不好好那這個我再提到就是說現在我們已經正式邁入了這一個高齡社會嘛對不對超高齡社會"},{"start":17815.683,"end":17824.214,"text":"這個數據去年底就出來我們在2025年正式成為超高齡社會但同時呢這個台灣的人口年時降"},{"start":17825.759,"end":17849.749,"text":"連時降 台灣的這個總人口數也連續兩年負成長所以現在大家講說生不如死那這個也 我知道政府也花了很多的錢想要提升我們的這個出生率然後呢我們對這個進入超高齡社會我看我們政府長照3.0什麼也有在做但是呢"},{"start":17850.939,"end":17854.556,"text":"出生率就這麼低我們如果看結果來講的話出生率就是這麼低"},{"start":17856.038,"end":17882.537,"text":"那請教一下部長我看馬斯克他不是只有關心台灣他也有關心韓國他講說我們台灣人口數持續加速崩跌然後他講到韓國他就說未來成人尿布的數量如果超過嬰兒尿布的數量表示這個國家就是走錯路了我也很擔心說我們台灣是未來成人尿布的數量會超過嬰兒尿布的數量"},{"start":17884.699,"end":17904.663,"text":"如果我們現在已經有這個呈現生不如屬的一個現象了那請教一下部長你可以預測一下或是說你有什麼樣的一個信心基礎之下我們也花了這麼多經費來從我們小孩子從出生到他長大這段期間我們的出生率何時可以一直跌回升呢"},{"start":17905.799,"end":17926.772,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們現在這個挑戰很嚴峻雖然我們過去8年間投入這麼多對一個孩子我們平均算起來一個0到6歲的孩子投入大概120到180萬也不算少如果換回去的話一年也是在20萬左右再挹注這個家庭"},{"start":17927.452,"end":17948.721,"text":"那但是仍然是不見起色那我們再回頭再分析這個數字就發現那問題出在25歲到44歲的這一段女性她的這個未婚率不斷的在上升如果有走路有結婚過的那麼她的生育率的還是維持在83到90%所以是不婚"},{"start":17949.701,"end":17971.826,"text":"是不婚現在是在不婚的問題因為不婚率從1990年的21%到去年來到新高點52%所以等於然後不婚的當然這一群他的生育率就很低只是低於1%所以我們現在整個生育率下降最大的問題是在這個走入婚姻不婚這邊"},{"start":17973.326,"end":17996.396,"text":"那所以我們除了要催生之外我們連這個結婚這部分我們也要去加強那我們有什麼樣的計畫嗎因為現在問題已經不是到不生了現在是到不婚了難怪人家說不婚不生快樂一生那怎麼辦所以這個問題真的是很大我們現在對於這個不婚這個還沒有提出對策就對了"},{"start":17997.156,"end":18026.756,"text":"還要再努力還要再努力對所以我們剛才所講的都是講說我出生之後我們在孩子在肚子裡面的時候我們給你的照顧到長大成年有沒有至少到這一個六歲這個階段那我們現在是連前面那個階段不婚都有問題了對沒有錯所以在我們的今年開始2.0另外一個就是要去營造一個友善的職場企業這邊也要去鼓勵等等這些都要去努力的"},{"start":18027.276,"end":18048.607,"text":"不然大家都忙到都根本沒有時間交朋友也沒有辦法談論到這些問題好 最後再問一個問題好了我們這個 副社長宋署長在嗎 來來來不過我這個要問一下我們部長我們現在關於這個學齡前的兒童我們有一筆特別扣除額不過這個就是只有到6歲之前對不對 宋署長"},{"start":18050.1,"end":18058.771,"text":"對不對對 幼兒學前特別扣除我們現在有把它增加啦我們本來是這個15萬我們現在就是說第一個小孩多少兩個小孩多少 三個小孩最多是到60萬吧"},{"start":18060.219,"end":18078.736,"text":"本來一個小孩12萬現在提高到15萬第二個小孩以後可以到22.5萬這是6歲之前嘛等於扣7次一個小孩可以扣7次0歲開始嘛對不對那現在這個我要問一下我們石部長好了因為我們這個特別扣儲保值到這個學齡前"},{"start":18080.237,"end":18099.162,"text":"六歲之前那如果我們有這個機會把這個讓父母他這個養育小孩的這個壓力再降低再減輕我們再用特別扣除這部分給予他們一些減輕的壓力如果能夠到18歲之前我看我看我宋署長嘴巴馬上張大了"},{"start":18100.879,"end":18115.358,"text":"但是部長你覺得這個對於減輕壓力育兒壓力有沒有應該也會有幫忙有幫忙對 因為在這個這個小學的階段我們當然在六歲以前的話我們是給一些托育津貼或者是托育補助然後到"},{"start":18116.139,"end":18142.566,"text":"六歲開始入學之後那麼國民教育我們的費用還算低可是往後又可能這個失效所以這個怎麼延伸到支持到18歲這個是可以研究的方式可以 你也支持也贊同嘛因為我不用問那個受署長他已經反對的但是我們0到6歲每個月平均是花費是1.1萬6到12歲平均是到1.3萬以上"},{"start":18143.806,"end":18163.882,"text":"是越來越增加這個我們到財政再說我現在先問石部長就是說所以你也支持如果再提高把這個特別扣除了延伸到18歲以上照顧到18歲的這個支持這樣這個我們算是有共識啦好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝部長好謝謝李坤成委員發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":18188.902,"end":18204.328,"text":"好主席有請部長請時部長好這麼也好部長好辛苦了還有所有的官員都辛苦了這個今天談這個台灣未來帳戶特別條例"},{"start":18207.918,"end":18236.285,"text":"他有他的這個立法的目的這個在相關的剛才說明也多很多這個衛護部相關的部會也都很清楚了這個最主要我們這個沒辦法動抱歉我們少子女化真的是一個非常的嚴重國安的危機"},{"start":18238.161,"end":18264.412,"text":"剛才部長也提了少子女化這樣的一個問題除了這個我們的勞工現在都很清楚了外勞一直進來勞工真的是缺工非常非常的嚴重我們這個相關的這些我們的剛才也提到"},{"start":18266.601,"end":18295.234,"text":"不分所以這個都是要去解決在這樣一個情形之下國民黨團跟立法院黨團提出相關這些台灣未來帳戶特別條例的草案主要還是要去解決少子女化的挑戰跨世代貧富差距希望能夠去建設台灣未來帳戶的制度"},{"start":18296.326,"end":18313.339,"text":"當然他這裡面會涉及到需要去討論的還可以大家可以及時廣益但是如果我們從這個我們看下一張這個衛福部的報告裡面來看的話這個從107年核定我國勺子擬化對策計畫經過了7年現在114年115年了"},{"start":18324.836,"end":18352.188,"text":"這個錢也變類了這總共將近6千億將近6千億但是我們真的是從整個人口數急速的下降然後出生率各方面對於我們先講這個除了這樣的一個少子女化的一個對策有新的想法嗎"},{"start":18353.675,"end":18381.322,"text":"去解決這個問題跟委員報告確實我們在過去這8年投注了很多在減輕這個育兒家庭的經濟負擔還有協助這個托育的資源的部件那這個是花了最多那另外一個就是生育的補助啦包含人工生殖啦等等這些那但是我們看到的就是說這個有生育的家庭維持住啦但是因為這個跟婚"},{"start":18382.122,"end":18402.458,"text":"台灣的這個不婚的問題更嚴峻這個有去研議對策嗎所以下一步我們應該要更著重在這個不婚這個問題上要去處理不然很難完全去解決這個生育率低的問題好 這個我們看下一張"},{"start":18404.291,"end":18430.847,"text":"這個衛福部這個教育行政已經送來了這個在提出這個法案之前賴總統也特別宣佈而且還提到了解決少子女化是其中之一但是我們如果一直去從組織當然組織是可以檢討的但是如果我們從過去"},{"start":18433.491,"end":18456.603,"text":"這個衛生署到衛福部然後也社會家庭署兒童家庭署去解決這些問題如果我們去回顧我們回顧過去孩子生太多就鼓勵大家兩個恰恰好在那個年代也沒有成立一個機關"},{"start":18458.206,"end":18482.872,"text":"都是透過鄉鎮公所的那些公職衛生所的人員去宣傳對不對所以我們中央一直成立然後一直擴大但是地方政府還是沒有還是維持那個樣子所以這個部分是一個整體性的讓這個機關可以檢討但是他不要辦法去解決真正的問題"},{"start":18485.729,"end":18511.167,"text":"我不知道這樣的成立這個署會增加人數會增加嗎隨著我們業務上的需要還是要做一些人力的調整特別是這個以這個兒少及家庭署來講他除了是把一些業務做整合之外更希望那麼更專業的更聚焦的對這個兒少的問題包含從健康到他的福利"},{"start":18511.707,"end":18530.542,"text":"到保護到發展因為今天不是這個為主我只不過是請衛福部包括相關的官員怎麼樣去解決真正要解決的問題所以這個部分也希望能夠去考慮我們看下一張"},{"start":18532.472,"end":18555.818,"text":"當然我們過去在107年6月6號公布施行兒童及少年未來教育與發展丈夫的條例本席當初也有提出相關的意見當然原住民的部分沒有被納入好 我們看下一條下一條這個部分實施到現在當然時間的關係我就不多說了這個也請這個"},{"start":18559.855,"end":18586.068,"text":"衛福部提供我們下一張提供這個目前的執行的人數然後既有原住民身份的到底有多少因為之前我本來有提修正的條文大家說還要先執行一段時間現在已經執行這麼多年了107年現在已經115年了是不是請提供這樣的一個數據"},{"start":18587.148,"end":18608.701,"text":"我們再來跟園民會討論比對一下我們要那個比對一下才知道因為我們在身份上並沒有特別註記副政司 內政部副政司也可以比對對 去比對一下這個身份好 謝謝 謝謝委員我們再提供給委員 謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員發言請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":18620.342,"end":18621.525,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":18627.321,"end":18649.836,"text":"市部長辛苦了剛剛我想昭緯已經透過他的簡報很完整的分析跟討論就是說我們今天討論這個未來帳戶的一個部分那本席也跟大家都一樣其實我們很關注這個出生率的問題少子女化的問題但我想先釐清一下到底現在此時此刻我們衛福部具體認為說台灣現在少子女化的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":18651.448,"end":18679.2,"text":"剛剛也跟委員報告我們過去這幾年的努力主要是在支持有婚育的家庭育兒的壓力把它下降所以我們從生育的補助部長你還是沒有聽清楚我的問題那我們先看起來不是 部長你先聽完我的問題因為我覺得這個問題才是最重要的也是今天所有人的報告裡面沒有秀出來的到底我們少子女化大家不生孩子的原因是什麼"},{"start":18680.841,"end":18695.536,"text":"應該是說我們統計的分析從25歲到44歲就是屬於四育適合生育的年齡的婦女來看如果有婚姻關係或者曾經有婚姻關係當然生育率是維持住了"},{"start":18696.416,"end":18721.929,"text":"並沒有特別下降但是在沒有婚姻的在這一段年齡沒有婚姻的他的生育率是很低都是低於1%那從這幾年看起來這個不婚的比例正在持續的上升從1990年的時候這一個年齡層的這個未婚的大概是21%到去年來到新高是52%所以這個部分就很低"},{"start":18722.489,"end":18742.216,"text":"所以我們的這一段年齡的婦女等於是拉低了整個生育率統計上就拉低很多人講就是個人的生活價值觀譬如說他晚婚或是不婚的一個改變而造成說他沒有結婚或者是認為是說婚姻跟家庭的觀念改變"},{"start":18742.976,"end":18761.489,"text":"就是以前認為說一定要結婚但是現在就覺得不一定男生也好女生也好可能都沒有這樣的想法好 那撇開這兩個因為這兩個面向可能要跟內政部一起合作可能要一起努力變成是說政府要如果說我們認為這真的很重要也認為是說這個是能夠救台灣生育率我們甚至要成立"},{"start":18762.31,"end":18780.508,"text":"我們甚至要支持鼓勵大家徵友互相聯誼但過去其實我們不管是地方政府民政體系也都有做這樣的部分嘛可是本席再拉回來講如果說已經生完已經結婚了他到底不生孩子有很多是父母他結婚但是沒有生孩子的主要理由"},{"start":18781.309,"end":18793.824,"text":"我们看起来还是最主要是这个育儿的这个成本经济的经济的跟机会成本就是未来他教养的部分认为说他孩子能不能不要说"},{"start":18795.269,"end":18817.796,"text":"這個跟他自己受一樣的苦他可以有更好的一個求學更好的生活 更好的環境是不是對 另外就是機會成本因為他在養育的過程當中可能會喪失的比如說他的升遷機會那麼這個就就業的機會等等這一些這個就是所謂的機會成本所以我們在這一段這個政策裡面還有一段就是需要"},{"start":18818.676,"end":18841.85,"text":"創造那個友善的職場譬如說它更有彈性的運營留停制度更有彈性的上班彈性的這些我們有沒有在做我們都有在做嘛對 在我們現在的這個2.0今年開始就是特別把勞動部還有內政部這些都會一起進來要努力好 部長你剛提到"},{"start":18843.311,"end":18859.296,"text":"你剛剛提到兩個部分一個是經濟養育額的一個經濟成本一個是機會成本他可能會有他的一個升遷管道那我們現在其實都在做本期為什麼還是要開宗明義問這個問題因為我想要的是如同醫生在看診"},{"start":18860.736,"end":18875.863,"text":"對症下藥就是說我們一定很多的委員在那邊鬼扯然後講明明說未來帳戶是對於全民以及希望能夠解決梢子化問題解決經濟的負擔的相關部分或是給他低桶金但是"},{"start":18876.283,"end":18896.791,"text":"要故意鬼扯說是什麼跟這個未成年低收入戶的這個兒童跟少年未來的教育發展帳戶一樣其實我覺得這個概念是完全不同的因為我們現在在推的兒童跟少年未來教育及發展帳戶是要幫助低收中低收的孩子但他要解決的比較是他們在生活成長過程"},{"start":18898.277,"end":18922.058,"text":"而現在講的是整體全台灣的出生率本席不會苛責因為這是要共同面對但是你花了過去這幾年107年到114年花了5900多億是事實我不會講說這5900多億就是浪費了我不會這樣講但是我相信部長你也應該可以理解跟承認如果沒花這5900多億狀況會比現在更慘吧"},{"start":18924.981,"end":18933.573,"text":"是 所以但是我們現在重點在哪裡重點是我們已經花了五千九百多億了可是我們的結果是最後一名"},{"start":18935.36,"end":18958.205,"text":"這都是事實我們是最後一名花了5900多億我們還是最後一名可是我不會說不能花這5900多億因為如果說沒有花的話可能我們最後一名還要更墊底對不對好可是現在的問題就在於我們已經花了5900多億了還是拿到最後一名那代表過去有做這些事情有沒有成效有成效但是不大"},{"start":18959.085,"end":18986.132,"text":"那我們現在面臨的問題除了之前的5900多億還是要持續推動該補貼的要補貼政府之前一直講0到6歲國家養可以持續做但是除了這以外如果我們沒有新的思維或是新的政策工具的話我們沒有辦法翻身我們還是一樣最後一名我們不會今天突然間大家過兩個月過三個月之後遇到Mr.Right然後就結婚了"},{"start":18987.079,"end":19013.659,"text":"不會轉角遇到愛嘛現實生活沒有那麼的那個而且更重要的是愛情是一回事但是你說要養育孩童等等他就變成是很理性的思考所以今天才會變成是說不管是在野黨提出來黨團提出來或者是有執政黨的委員他也提出類似的概念的時候那我們要思考說這對於您剛剛提到的經濟跟機會成本有沒有幫助"},{"start":19014.099,"end":19027.942,"text":"或是有沒有讓這一些年輕的爸爸媽媽覺得說這一件事情是有幫到他的讓他在思考未來下一代生育的時候他可以更想的是說那我們能不能來生小孩我覺得這才是關鍵"},{"start":19029.926,"end":19050.703,"text":"因為它是一個大規模的政策的部分而對政下要很重要部長您剛也提到了經濟一定是一個面向所以怎麼樣讓父母都覺得是說政府有幫我經濟上有支持經濟上有支持分兩種一種是政府直接補貼經費但我們過去沒在做 有在做嘛"},{"start":19051.323,"end":19077.653,"text":"但是也不能無底洞啊對不對一定會馬上就講是說我們政府財政有限所以說我不能無底洞如果說真的我們今天可以挖到石油一戶5萬塊10萬塊20萬都發但重點是沒有嘛那我們就要思考另外一個方向是說我們今天用一個未來帳戶政府出一點民間自己也出一點然後幫小朋友存錢並且透過基金的管理讓這個存的錢是有"},{"start":19078.593,"end":19096.178,"text":"合理的收益 當他18歲的時候他可以拿到第一桶金 而這第一桶金是可以幫他不管是還學貸 不管是創業 不管是做人生的規劃 出國留學讓他有一個基本的經濟能力我覺得這不會是壞事"},{"start":19098.191,"end":19117.026,"text":"所以本席現在講完只是想是說我很懇求跟拜託為什麼今天一定要留下來質詢就是因為我認為這個東西方向對的話不要考慮說一定是在野黨提出我就是完全就是反對執政黨提出執政黨也有委員提出我們共同可以討論不足的地方大家來修正"},{"start":19118.089,"end":19133.096,"text":"不足的地方或說有思考不周延不嚴謹的地方大家來你給意見我們大家來修正但是這個方向如果是對的可以對症下藥解決現在青年朋友的心理的困擾的時候該支持該推動要推動部長"},{"start":19137.185,"end":19161.423,"text":"我們會來做很審慎的評論因為本席真的還是希望症狀在哪裡就是您應該是醫生相關背景嘛到底病因是什麼先找出原因我們才能投藥嘛還是要對症下藥是那如果說我做去已經投了5900多億的藥我不會講沒有效我還是再次強調因為如果沒有花這5900多億我看可能現在會更差"},{"start":19162.384,"end":19187.91,"text":"但是投了5900多億的藥之後我們還到結果是最後一名那就代表我們這個藥除了該必要性的做持續做以外該換藥了該引進新的療程新的方式來燉真下藥才能夠真的我們一起努力讓台灣能夠解決至少往少子化往上就是出生率往上的方向邁進好嗎好我們來檢討謝謝"},{"start":19195.311,"end":19198.813,"text":"謝謝謝謝洪夢凱委員發言接下來請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席我們邀請部長請示部長好我剛剛聽了"},{"start":19214.062,"end":19238.921,"text":"我剛聽了洪孟凱委員的這個質詢我覺得我非常肯定啦肯定洪孟凱委員的質詢就是說大家在野黨或執政黨版本都有提出不同的想法那我覺得真的就是要細緻的討論因為我在2024年吧我看過一份研究報告在國際的期刊上面他有講到就是全世界不管是他們研究了北歐東南亞到美國等等"},{"start":19239.662,"end":19252.574,"text":"他們徹底的研究然後發現說如果你要激起你的生育率你的國家投資要佔你的GDP 3%那我們剛剛講的5000多億其實一直都只有整個整體對於兒少的投資只有2%"},{"start":19254.522,"end":19274.558,"text":"所以這個基本上從這個數字看起來我們是有gap那再來就是大家也提到說韓國韓國那我也要跟大家再來做一個我覺得也是大家可以做一個釐清啦在那份研究報告裡面特別針對韓國做了一個研究當時韓國在整個GDP的投資呢對俄商的投資只有1%"},{"start":19275.859,"end":19293.38,"text":"所以他當時就有講如果韓國加碼投資之後他很快會有個生育率的boost一個高峰會先出來但是後面最終還是會回到其他的國家如果沒有達到整體%超過3%的話我不曉得部長有沒有看過這個相關的研究對 有類似這樣所以我們一直這幾年在提升這個對兒少這邊的預算"},{"start":19296.626,"end":19317.361,"text":"對所以這個其實是過去那其實一個基本的保底那份研究也有講到有些基礎的工作是要先做所以我想這部分也是要讓召委知道說那是一個保底的基本盤的工作要做不是沒有效那再來就是說剛剛其實有很多的委員其實都一直有提出很多的想法那我這邊也要再懇請我們的主席呢是可以來召開公聽會"},{"start":19319.422,"end":19348.014,"text":"讓大家來集思廣益因為版本現在還是有想法還是有蠻大的落差啦那開公聽會呢也不是拖延時間而是集思廣益讓我們做所為可以更貼近民眾的需求那現在呢其實行政院也有在一直不停的在說因為去年有許多執政黨的委員都提出了相關的質詢我想上次我質詢的時候部長也有聽到就是行政院都已經說他們會去做擴大了所以大家其實都是要往這個方向來前進只是說怎麼做"},{"start":19349.114,"end":19359.625,"text":"這個做法是要一起來好好的討論所以我再次強調說我們希望可以來爭取更多的公聽會那再來最後還有一件事情是"},{"start":19361.294,"end":19382.306,"text":"我想如果我們今天我們在野黨的委員真的很在乎生育率因為今天整天我聽到了蠻多質詢都是一直在講少子化 少子化生育率 國家危機等等的那我們總預算是不是可以趕快來審一下裡面就有生育給付的差額不然我們基本上就只是空口說白話嘴巴說我很在乎可是實質上我沒有作為"},{"start":19383.647,"end":19393.657,"text":"所以這邊還是要請藍白的立法委員實質的去審查這才是真正的去回應到國家整體面對到的問題那接下來就進入到我今天的質詢我的遙控器"},{"start":19398.547,"end":19423.366,"text":"我想這個我的版本我現在大概簡略的說了一下其實我想我的版本那個部長已經非常熟悉應該已經看過了那我想我今天來講一下為什麼我今天覺得這個現在的國民黨委員應該說在黨委員提出來這個台灣未來賬戶會有一些問題因為他其實是看起來好像是為孩子好但是呢我要講這還是對財政公平性跟實務上都存在很高的風險"},{"start":19425.407,"end":19453.999,"text":"這個不是理念上的問題而是國家負擔能不能負擔的問題因為我們現在草案規劃13年上限4500億的特別預算呢而且允許一用稅計剩餘於舉債我想這個 今天主計好像已經主計在嗎主計在喔 我想這待會也可以說一下這可不可行啦齁那 但是我想要先問部長喔你知道說為什麼英國他們後來不選擇用這樣子的方向來做呢"},{"start":19455.322,"end":19462.175,"text":"也是因為他的財政沒有辦法支付這樣的龐大的預算壓力下所以他後來就停了"},{"start":19463.537,"end":19485.577,"text":"對我想我這邊也就做個清楚的說明一下這個兒童的信託基金開始它也是個普及式的一個補助但是後來也是因為財政壓力之下在2011年它全面的停止政府的撥補就轉為現在新的制度是用減稅的部分因為我想大家都非常清楚歐洲國家是稅非常非常高他們認為這樣子的方式才能夠真正的去鼓勵"},{"start":19487.899,"end":19509.422,"text":"所以我想在整個國際上面來比較的話目前的台灣不管你是新加坡 加拿大 美國或是英國來比我們是唯一一個採取普及發放 高額補助以及政府擔保收益的國家所以我今天早上才會說這個是一個大雜燴的法案它好像看起來是把大家的版本都彙整在一起"},{"start":19509.702,"end":19538.694,"text":"可是他就沒有考量到我們所謂的財政紀律的問題以及可不可以執行持續的執行下去因為像英國的這個版本就讓我們發現它是一個畫大餅可是長期來說吃不到就變成是看得到吃不到所以我覺得我們今天要做這件事情我們還是要回到到底哪個樣子的制度是可以持續的穩健的所以我想要請主計講一下就是可以簡單回應我一下就是說這樣子的可以一用稅計剩餘跟舉證這是可以的嗎"},{"start":19540.987,"end":19564.118,"text":"他法裡面規定可以用稅期剩餘是沒有錯但是我們現在已經沒有稅期剩餘了我們現在稅期剩餘是你然後114年度我們的稅科收入財政部今天也在場估計上次聽到的估計數是應該中央的部分大會少收大概四五百億所以114也沒有稅期剩餘"},{"start":19565.933,"end":19582.599,"text":"了解好那但是這個也沒有辦法持續的舉債嘛對吧我們是這個應該還是因為他是這邊可以他也可以允許舉債可是我們現在還有舉債的空間嗎他這裡的裡面的舉債他是排除當年度15%但是這個期間這個期間還是要受到15%的限制沒錯"},{"start":19586.68,"end":19613.582,"text":"但是我們目前的E5的數字算出來它的空間還剩下1800億但是我們的軍購每年大概是1560億扣掉這個軍購我們的額度大概剩下不到300億的空間但是我們每年的稅出在公共建設或是科技發展或是我們的一些依法律的支出每年大概要成早5%左右這個數字算出來大概1000多億所以基本上"},{"start":19614.342,"end":19616.444,"text":"已經沒有容納這個空間 以上報告"},{"start":19644.142,"end":19672.693,"text":"而且他就是當幫富人減稅嘛對吧因為我們現在真正弱勢的家庭是連基本生活都很吃力根本就不可能再多存了嘛而是你現在這個版本你也沒有針對弱勢來去做特別處理可是你針對高所得去幫他做減稅那國際的相關的研究都已經在講了在類似的制度之下排名前5%的高排名前5%高的家庭往往掌握將近30%的一個賬戶總存款所以我想問一下部長您針對今天這樣子的一個草案我們有沒有研究過"},{"start":19673.433,"end":19692.708,"text":"他會不會造成貧富差距越來越大如果18年後富有家庭的賬戶是弱勢家庭的好幾倍這還叫做公平的起跑線嗎所以剛剛在我們的書面報告才會去特別提到我們之前推動的這個兒少的未來教育及發展賬戶我們確實應該要去"},{"start":19694.309,"end":19715.737,"text":"去檢討讓他能夠照顧更多的弱勢家庭是要改變這個貧窮繼承的這一種階級複製但是如果是按照目前完全是普惠式的來講怕會造成逆補貼的情形這個是我們不樂見所以這個是我們在報告裡面會來努力"},{"start":19716.497,"end":19737.376,"text":"好 那我想就是這樣講得非常的清楚就是說我們如果要講在公平的起跑險的話我們就應該要針對這件事情來實質的回應而不是說我們不好好的討論然後就這樣子去不開公聽會然後就讓這樣子的事情過去我覺得這樣是無助於社會的討論那再來就是說我想再請教一下部長就是"},{"start":19738.686,"end":19752.084,"text":"因為那個趙歐主席已經站起來了所以我就 我看他前面都沒有站起來但是我的部分他已經站起來了所以我想他可能是要真的嗎 前面是講幾分鐘 洪孟愷委員好 謝謝你喔"},{"start":19753.069,"end":19768.565,"text":"好 那我想就是說我們現在的我想我今天是針對大家的版本提出建議啦那我想這個對大家如果真的是有心要來好好討論的話其實都可以再來納進來我也不是做任何的無所謂的謾罵"},{"start":19770.126,"end":19798.855,"text":"我想就是說我們現在可能不是一個新儲蓄而是有錢人的資產轉移的工具因為許多的研究都指出這樣子的一個制度常出現擠出效應家庭只是把原本要存給孩子的錢換成一個更有利的賬戶再多拿政府的補助與稅賦的優惠所以如果這些錢本來會存到這麼多的話政府為什麼要用公共預算來補貼呢這合理性您的看法是"},{"start":19800.495,"end":19824.402,"text":"對確實是如此就是國人的跟這些制度還得考慮到各國的本身的民情的差異性那以國人來講有兩個差異一個是複稅率是低的就是我們大概有近80%都是在5%的複稅以下了沒錯是那第二個是說"},{"start":19827.365,"end":19842.603,"text":"這個國人的儲蓄率本來就高的我們的儲蓄率本來就是高的國家所以是不是要透過這個工具再去鼓勵儲蓄全民儲蓄還是我們來把這個資源用在對弱勢者的照顧來強化"},{"start":19843.744,"end":19867.796,"text":"對 我想部長剛剛講得非常清楚就是說因為其實各國雖然英國 新加坡 美國很多國家都有但是我覺得各國的狀況還是要考量它的背景跟脈絡上面的一個差異不然我們只有實際看到別人的東西就趕快全部把它抄一抄之後全部組裝一起之後可能反而變成一個拼裝車無法上路 無法真正的執行所以我還是最後啦 懇請我們的主席召委"},{"start":19868.476,"end":19886.643,"text":"可以來辦公廳會啦 因為民間有很多的團體都有在倡議這樣子的事情 聽聽大家的意見不是一件壞事 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝張雅玲委員發言那接下來請牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員不在請王振旭委員詢答"},{"start":19896.897,"end":19902.651,"text":"好 感謝主席那我想部長已經在動身了就請部長"},{"start":19907.696,"end":19929.233,"text":"已經連續兩個小時了 部長辛苦我想所有長官們都很辛苦不過針對今天趙委所安排的這個未來彰化法案的這個答詢還是跟部長來討論一下那第二個部分就是有關於不定次專科的政策相關的部分也馬上部長來能夠廣納各方面的意見"},{"start":19930.314,"end":19949.315,"text":"那針對第一個主題就是少子女化對策真的必須要審慎規劃我相信大家都會認同少子女化的對策我們除了以現有的基礎之外必須要有更好的想法或者是做法希望能夠來改善這個少子女化目前帶來的困境"},{"start":19949.935,"end":19965.298,"text":"可是我們也真了解針對今天排審的這個國民黨團跟民眾黨團台灣未來賬戶特別條例的草案的第七條裡面就希望能夠要分13年那編列至少上限是4500億啟動資金1130億還有每年編列226億的這個條文"},{"start":19972.92,"end":19987.968,"text":"我們也想要請部長再次說明說這樣的話對於我們現在在編列或執行中的原本的這個少子女化對策計畫或者是其他醫療攝護預算會發生什麼樣的排擠效應跟委員報告 當然這個"},{"start":19989.729,"end":20004.72,"text":"這個啟動資金這個一千多億這個規模其實是不小的那麼以我們現在的長照而言我們才超過一千億而已所以這個規模是不小一定會有排擠的效果出來"},{"start":20005.541,"end":20024.013,"text":"那麼以我們現行在推動的方向來講最主要是針對這個弱勢家庭的協助這些兒少弱勢家庭的兒少讓他能夠脫離這個繼承貧窮這樣的困境所以我們針對的是弱勢那至於說這個補貼的對象"},{"start":20026.374,"end":20053.046,"text":"幫忙的對象再擴大這個我們一定會來檢討那但是對於這種普惠是我們是以目前的這個設計上我們是比較擔憂一點了解所以其實針對兒少預算的這個文件擴張大家都非常期待那剛剛在內委員也特別提到如果依照目前OECD國家平均是6個百分比來看的話事實上我們2024年所編列預算是5923億"},{"start":20055.227,"end":20080.183,"text":"佔了GDP是2.33%當然相較於期待的那個%是還不夠所以我們期待這方面能夠持續的來加強不過我們也可以再細看一下在這個5923億裡面的平均看起來各方面是有不一樣這個福利佔了19%健康照護佔了6%教育是佔了73%事實上是不少"},{"start":20080.783,"end":20105.032,"text":"那保護是1%所以錢要怎麼來怎麼花其實這是非常重要尤其您今天的書面報告裡面認為這個政策的關鍵在於資源怎麼用要先照顧誰剛剛部長也做了說明那其實我們在過去這七八年來對少子化對策的部分中央總共編列了5931.18億元這個大家都很清楚"},{"start":20105.552,"end":20129.8,"text":"那針對於這個行政院將來是不是還會持續的針對少子女化對策計畫在做更穩健的增長這個其實我相信部長一定會說是而且是會努力的再往這邊來增長那對於現在的這個保證政策如果說因為我們有這些這樣的特別條例進來的話這個排擠會不會是也是您擔心的事情"},{"start":20130.32,"end":20149.14,"text":"對 因為這個資源永遠是有限沒有辦法無限的擴張所以我們必須做選擇哪一個是先後然後哪些是要優先那剛剛其實那個主計總署的長官也已經說明了我們現在那麼已經到位的預算"},{"start":20149.52,"end":20175.745,"text":"那還要再新增的時候我們都是要去衡量這個孰先孰後那麼誰先應該要先優先那麼急迫性的要來先處理好那再來這部分可能要麻煩我們教育部的許副署長如果有在現場的話就麻煩許副署長也來幫我們說明一下其實我們知道政府教育經費佔政府支出的比例很明顯的看得出來"},{"start":20178.277,"end":20197.972,"text":"我國是佔了22.5%就是說在整體的政府支出裡面教育經費佔了22.5%美國是佔了10.3%日本7.1%韓國是11.7%OECD國家平均是10%左右所以顯然美國高等教育的負擔還有醫療的負擔"},{"start":20200.114,"end":20218.174,"text":"我們比較起來我國其實這個佔比是高的那我們也了解他們會提出這個大而美這個法案是我們這次兩黨他們參考一個重要的這個對象之一那我們也理解其實美國的相關的一些"},{"start":20221.611,"end":20249.736,"text":"國內的問題跟我們所面對的問題是不太一樣的所以如果我們要參考這個美國大而美的這個法案的話我們其實政府教育經費的比例已經佔了相當高的比例那比較重要的是高等教育因為在美國來講它可能在中小學以前的非高等教育所佔的佔比不會差太多可是我們看到的是高等教育美國就佔了3.4%那台灣其實過去都已經佔到將近7%"},{"start":20250.956,"end":20275.538,"text":"所以如果我們要參考這個大而美法案來做這個法案的推進的話事實上我們還是需要非常的謹慎那針對於這個政府教育監會教育的比例的部分可不可以請副處長再進一步說明比如說透過這樣的努力以後那這個助學貸款我其實是第一年有機會去申請到助學貸款的一個學生"},{"start":20276.178,"end":20293.56,"text":"那我畢業以後經過五年才把助學貸款能夠全部還完所以針對於這部分可不可以請署署長也進一步說明我們這個教育監會目前這幾年來在處理的部分針對這樣的狀況有哪一些具體的數字也可以讓民眾可以多瞭解"},{"start":20296.828,"end":20310.617,"text":"跟委員報告因為教育部的業務牽涉是非常非常多單位那今天主要來出席的是國教署那如果以就國教署的年度預算115年今年那我們的年度預算是到達1546億喔"},{"start":20313.679,"end":20328.558,"text":"那這裡面如果以委員剛剛所關心的對學生的協助那我們在高中的部分高中部分對高中的學費啦或是我們對弱勢的一些雜費的協助在高中大概就有111億"},{"start":20330.62,"end":20351.446,"text":"那大學的部分就目前掌握到的數據大學在協助學生的就學這些費用裡面那也高達114年度所編的預算也高達198億左右所以這是目前大概所掌握到對於學生就學這裡面應該也包含就學貸款"},{"start":20351.866,"end":20367.314,"text":"那委員所提及的相關更細緻的資料那會後我可以請在我們部裡面的相關單位跟署裡面相關單位再提供給委員參考因為這個提案的初衷是要改善少子女化我們的目標是要透過這樣的方式來改善少子女化來減輕這個家長育兒負擔"},{"start":20369.475,"end":20397.357,"text":"那草案第19條裡面也說明說要18歲以後才能夠提領所以是為了要因應高等教育過程所需要的一些經費那事實上家長在孩子0到12歲期間最迫切的育兒支出比如說托育 生養費用並沒有及時的注意所以法案本身如果說針對18歲以後才能提領的話那對於前面這部分沒有及時的處理到"},{"start":20398.037,"end":20413.769,"text":"對於高等教育的部分反而目前台灣已經做非常多相關的這個協助所以我們認為要謹慎的原因部分就是也要認同對於教育的投資的部分應該如何來處理因為18歲的支出是屬於教育跟創業的資產累積"},{"start":20415.53,"end":20430.522,"text":"所以年輕人不敢生是因為擔心小孩18歲沒有錢創業還是擔心奶粉錢生意會太貴這個我們先後順序就好像部長所提到資源要怎麼應用可能是非常重要的那謝謝副署長請回座"},{"start":20430.962,"end":20446.107,"text":"那有關於這個支出的部分到底是要無差別的發放還是要能夠做一個好的方案目前發行的這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶裡面目前是政府跟家長是1比1的底部"},{"start":20446.807,"end":20473.313,"text":"然後對象是以低收入跟中低收入的家庭為對象我想階層的流動非常重要重點還是希望能夠讓這些相對低收入的這些家庭透過政府的協助能夠讓階層的流動變為可能所以強化似乎還是目前的這個施政重點那這部分部長認不認同在這個強化的過程裡面如何有其他的方案來進來的話我們如何能夠謹慎的來討論"},{"start":20476.074,"end":20493.512,"text":"當年在這個條例通過然後開辦的時候確實是如同委員所提到的是這樣的概念階級流動的概念沒有錯但是實施下來確實也發生一些瓶頸包含我們覆蓋率一直沒有辦法再突破"},{"start":20494.153,"end":20517.501,"text":"那麼受惠的人數也是有限所以我們現在也在進行檢討看看如何來擴大可以受惠的人數那麼這個挹注上能夠更多一點那麼程序上能夠更簡化一點等等這些我們都在檢討中我們希望來進行好 那就麻煩部長繼續努力那最後一個小問題其實也不一定是小問題"},{"start":20518.737,"end":20538.591,"text":"就是說在今年2025年的11月14號預告修正專科醫師分科跟真神辦法裡面增加了兩個專科一個是感染科一個是重症醫學科我想重要的背景是來自於COVID對於社會還有整體的造成的影響所以才能夠透過這兩個專科來讓我們整體的醫療能夠有更好的這個照護"},{"start":20544.275,"end":20566.668,"text":"那部長剛上任的時候也提到要建立不定的次專科的制度來精準的投入相關的資源那這部分不知道目前針對次專科的政策的進度可不可以利用這個時間讓我們多了解那這個過程裡面其實也希望能夠有更廣泛的來請各個專科醫學會來做相關的這些意見的參考"},{"start":20567.268,"end":20582.519,"text":"比如說像安寧緩和醫療大家都認為這是對未來的社會很重要的一個相關的次專科或者是專科那這部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是可以讓民眾理解的部分"},{"start":20582.819,"end":20597.397,"text":"好 跟委員說明確實我們在這個月底應該就會發布兩個新的次專科一個就是感染科一個是重症醫學那這兩個科當然就像委員提到的在這個疫後這個COVID之後我們"},{"start":20598.838,"end":20625.441,"text":"深深的感受到這個感控的重要性感染人才的培育這個是很重要所以我們把它列入再加上近年這個重症照護的人力的流失我們需要呢那麼一方面是要來這個肯定投入重症科的醫師那也希望掌握這個人力那麼來做一些相對應的政策跟鼓勵的措施那後續還是會繼續的擴大"},{"start":20628.302,"end":20650.568,"text":"這個過去也曾經開過幾次會議當然在會議的討論過程當中有一些次專科已經有共識有一些次專科的共識度還有落差我們會持續的來討論會有在下一階段重點會先從在人力掌握度上我們需要有政策介入的會考量的條件"},{"start":20654.929,"end":20669.415,"text":"麻煩部長專科跟次專科還是不同所以我想這個部長應該可以掌握得更清楚好那就謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請圖權吉委員發言好謝謝主席那一樣請石部長請石部長"},{"start":20684.037,"end":20704.13,"text":"土葛委員好部長在1月7號那時候在答詢的時候當然那個時候部長說我們針對少子女化對策訂定這個計畫那時候經費編列是4484億那當然後來你當天晚上好像有發影片澄清說"},{"start":20705.211,"end":20720.788,"text":"而针对少子女化对策计划总共是编列了5931亿所以这5931亿是正确的数字就是年度的落差4000多亿是没有算到114年如果把114年都算进来的话是5931亿"},{"start":20723.159,"end":20741.866,"text":"所以後來算到這8年來總共是5931億所以針對我們2024年我們看統計資料顯示我們台灣人口的成長率2024那時候世界排名是191名也就是全世界倒數46名"},{"start":20743.146,"end":20757.78,"text":"那出生率是世界排名220名也是倒數第9名 只有7.3%那我們也知道其實現在全世界各國都在努力提高自己國家的生育率"},{"start":20758.3,"end":20778.005,"text":"那像韓國其實這幾年他們也在處理那我們也了解以後韓國在2025年他針對這個生育率確實就已經有在提升了所以台灣目前少子化我們也知道是很嚴重的國安危機所以我們才成立這個少子女化辦公室可是後來我們發現2025"},{"start":20780.966,"end":20793.275,"text":"幾乎每個月都比2024每個月幾乎都少差不多2000人所以我們在2024年出生人口數還有13萬4千多人可是到2025年就剩10萬7千人"},{"start":20797.158,"end":20816.053,"text":"這一年來就出生就少了兩萬六千人所以看起來台灣少子化這嚴重的國安危機那不知道部長有沒有瞭解我們年輕人為什麼對結婚生子這個意願為什麼這個到底是什麼問題讓他們不願意去結婚生子"},{"start":20816.713,"end":20831.122,"text":"我想這個原因非常多啦這個很多元那不外乎有一些是這個剛剛提到的經濟的考量那或者是職涯發展機會成本的問題等等這個因素倒是真的是不少"},{"start":20832.043,"end":20858.244,"text":"所以我们有看过卫福部在2024年6月的统计针对这也去做过数据每100人中大概有60个人都认为是经济负担太重也就是他们认为说从怀孕到生小孩再把小孩养大成人这个费用非常高而且现在物价逐年攀升对于我们现在年轻人他都认为"},{"start":20859.105,"end":20877.04,"text":"為了自己為了小孩他要去負這個責任要負擔的費用真的很大而且養小孩真的這個費用對他們來講是非常龐大所以對於結婚生小孩他們都非常恐懼那我們也可以知道就像剛剛講我們2018年到2025年總共編列了5931億那這些錢都用在津貼用在補助可是"},{"start":20886.107,"end":20895.375,"text":"看起來他們還是認為經濟負擔太重還是他們最主要的目標那看來我們補助那麼多錢好像也看不到什麼成效應該是說"},{"start":20897.114,"end":20925.061,"text":"可能還不夠也不一定力度要再加強也不一定另外他不是只有育兒的負擔還有他的生活的負擔還有在工作職涯上的發展機會成本的問題這些也都要一併考慮所以我們現在的這個2.0的這個少子女對策行動方案也會一直在努力的是讓那個友善的育兒職場那個部分也必須要改善"},{"start":20925.621,"end":20953.894,"text":"包含這個居住的這個住宅的政策等等這些的都要一併一併納進來我們過去是主要比較重的是放在這個0到6歲這一段的育兒的這個成本這個經濟的補貼上對啊 所以所以我說我們可以看到現在世代的年輕人當然因為他們現在賺錢也很不好也很辛苦也很不好賺錢那所以他們要"},{"start":20954.954,"end":20972.627,"text":"為了要照顧自己然後如果要結婚要生小孩對他們來講是一個非常沉重的負擔所以當然這一部分我們當然政府目前現在面臨少子化危機這嚴重的國安危機我們當然要想辦法去處理所以我們當然除了津貼補助"},{"start":20974.068,"end":20998.698,"text":"方面之外我們當然就希望能夠從更多的方面來鼓勵年輕人結婚生小孩那目前我們看得到我們是針對零歲到六歲的部分去照顧他們所以我們才想說是不是在六歲之後的育兒方面我們是不是應該要來重視應該要研認一套方式怎麼樣陪伴我們這"},{"start":20999.418,"end":21026.501,"text":"年輕的家庭怎樣子幫他把這個小孩子一樣撫養長大 減輕他們的負擔在我們這個115年的這個少子女對策計畫裡面確實有強化0到6歲的新手父母的這個協助有這一塊那另外一塊就是在入學的進入到這個教育階段入學之後 小學開始之後那麼在這個"},{"start":21028.802,"end":21045.091,"text":"教育的部分的補助有沒有要再 現在也有教育的補助只是教育的補助要不要也再增加一些這個都在討論當中不過這個也涉及到那個預算因為這個是新增的預算所以目前還是沒有辦法執行這樣"},{"start":21046.272,"end":21064.94,"text":"所以這部分我說這個嚴重國安危機當然行政院當然還有我們衛福部甚至就像剛剛部長講的教育這方面所以教育部這方面也要大力的幫忙來一起共同來研育來解決這個問題其實像衛福部我們之前針對中低"},{"start":21065.8,"end":21088.022,"text":"收入户提供儿童及少年未来发展教育这一方面我们觉得这一部分就做得很好的示范所以我们在想说才会提出说是不是未来账户所运用投资理财的概念就像我们ETF一样政府每年也拨钱来抚养0到12岁的存款"},{"start":21088.522,"end":21106.368,"text":"让政府代为投资的情形去累积他们的资产一方面也可以减轻儿童及少年将来他在各方面所要面临的压力所以当然我们是希望多元化的来解决这个问题所以也希望是不是"},{"start":21107.048,"end":21119.804,"text":"部長我們也是不是也可以提出一些版本大家共同來研議那未來賬戶也只是說我們提供的一個方式最主要我們還是要解決這個少子女化的一個問題"},{"start":21121.562,"end":21148.117,"text":"确实这个需要多元的政策才有办法来因应这样的低生育率的问题但是毕竟这个资源是有限所以我们会再来仔细的研析那么哪一些应该要先走资源要先放哪一些也许我们有更大的空间的时候再来推动就像石部长刚刚有讲你说或许"},{"start":21148.877,"end":21166.608,"text":"其實今天補助5900多億感覺其實還是不夠 對啊因為我們自己在地方基層跑我們可以知道現在的經濟真的不景氣年輕人賺錢真的很不容易那他對於自己的生活都沒有辦法照顧得好"},{"start":21167.088,"end":21183.761,"text":"那如何讓他去結婚如何去生子養小孩這對他們來講真的是一個非常沉重的壓力所以我們也希望我們先提這個未來戰後也是一個希望能夠解決少子女化的危機提高他們"},{"start":21184.401,"end":21204.291,"text":"生育子女来努力所以也希望我们卫福部也能够提出一些版本我们大家共同来讨论最主要希望不要让这个少子女化真的变成我们的国安危机好我们会来提出我们的建议那也请我们卫福部大家一起来努力好谢谢"},{"start":21208.313,"end":21220.204,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員發言那我現在宣告一下待會陳瑩委員詢答後休息10分鐘因為部長也很辛苦你有需要上個洗手間嗎還可以喔好那我們請陳瑩委員發言"},{"start":21237.697,"end":21246.624,"text":"謝謝昭緯那個部長你請先休息應該有時間可以先去上洗手間那個我先問那個主計總處請主計總處處長委員好"},{"start":21257.281,"end":21280.311,"text":"處長好 我想在這兩天一個台東人最關注的議題那就是我們的台東縣財力級別在這個藍白強推這個新的財化法版本的關係在新版的這個財化法的計算公式之下我們台東縣的財力級別一下子從第五級爆沖到第一級"},{"start":21281.391,"end":21307.683,"text":"那饒慶林縣長以及所有的民代以及我們所有台東的民眾都覺得非常的冤枉啊因為我們的饒縣長他非常就是堅守這個財政紀律而且他很努力的在還債那也堪稱是我們全台各縣市的模範生我們大家都給他非常高的評價那就是說但"},{"start":21308.854,"end":21327.396,"text":"大家還是就是說很難接受這樣子的一個結果難道說我們這樣子嚴守財政紀律認真還錢結果卻造成我們台東財力級別大躍升這個是主要的原因嗎"},{"start":21329.08,"end":21351.291,"text":"跟委員報告說這個財力集次我們是依照近三年度自有財源的平均值依序平均分列五級每三年檢討一次那這樣的計算方式是行之有年那115到117剛好是新的一起那這個自有財源是怎麼算的就是你的稅率扣掉中央的補助款"},{"start":21352.113,"end":21369.666,"text":"的部分那因為這一次的財化法中央大幅釋出了4165億元所以地方的這個稅款是大幅增加那所以稅入的部分就要記錄這個影響數那稅出的話就是近三年的稅出決算數這樣算出來的"},{"start":21372.068,"end":21393.509,"text":"那從這個公式可以看到這裡面我們並沒有把他所謂的債務欠了多少錢或是說他還了多少錢 納進來為什麼 因為如果說你把他納進來就怕說你欠越多你的財力集資就越差你反而鼓勵到不還錢的人所以這個公式根本完全跟他的債務"},{"start":21394.73,"end":21413.578,"text":"多少 有還沒還 完全沒有關係那這一次我們計算出來原本台東在前一次的自有財源比例只有36%那事先是排名第20名那以前他算出來大家都是這樣的結果那這一次算出來主要是因為財務法的修正"},{"start":21415.202,"end":21433.56,"text":"他的影響數大概是增加了137億元那這樣算出來他的增幅是220%那我們自由財源的比例計算出來就達到104那整個22個縣市他是排名第4名的那以往我們在計算這個自由財源的比例"},{"start":21434.702,"end":21449.123,"text":"變動的幅度都不會太大那有變動大概是會到三個縣市或四個縣市那縱使有變動它變動的差距大概就會升一級或是降一級那這次採訪法就是分配得非常不均"},{"start":21451.666,"end":21466.198,"text":"讓這個22個縣市算出來有15個縣市是變動的10個上升 5個下降那純粹就是根據財務法分配的結果算出來所以財務法是它的財力變動的因素"},{"start":21467.099,"end":21492.424,"text":"那財力分級的計算是依照那樣分配的結果算出來而已並不是我財力分級的比例去影響了整個財力的結果是因為才要把修正導致整個財力集市的大幅變動好 謝謝處長非常詳細的說明我想這中間有一些誤會所以最主要原因我們還是按照這個國民黨"},{"start":21494.344,"end":21515.015,"text":"推的這個才化法的版本去做詳細的計算所造成的結果那我想我們現在很清楚了這個台東財力級別大躍升從第5級爆衝跳到第1級最主要就是還是這個國民黨的才化法的版本的計算公式"},{"start":21516.892,"end":21541.691,"text":"我想這個我們在當初這個強行推動就是說這個藍白的那個版本其實那個版本應該也沒有被好好的討論因為在台東的統籌分配稅款增加但是在計算公式不變的情況下才讓我們台東一下子跳到這麼多那畢竟台東過去"},{"start":21542.972,"end":21559.057,"text":"努力還債這件事情其實也這幾年來其實都是這樣子的一個情況按照過去幾年的舊版本的計算公式底下一直都維持在第五級我這樣解釋正確吧是好 謝謝"},{"start":21561.618,"end":21588.985,"text":"那雖然是這個樣子啦但是我想國民黨的財化法版本對我們台東來講仍然是一個非常不公平的狀況現在我們台東這個不只綠營的人在罵藍營的支持者也很多在罵那黃建斌委員他也非常的對這個版本所計算出來的結果也相當的不滿意那我們台東呢現在突然跟台北並列第一"},{"start":21589.785,"end":21610.6,"text":"那意味著就是說未來中央在各項政策的補助款比例都將大幅減少甚至沒有補助那但是台東的這個基礎建設還有先天的條件和台北市的這個起保點是完全不一樣的即便我們增加近兩倍的這個統籌稅款但是"},{"start":21611.4,"end":21628.466,"text":"我們的人數也沒有那麼多那台北但是我們台北這個台北有綿密的這個大眾運輸的這個交通網那我們台東卻是地廣人稀那除了就是說只有公車那這個公車還久久一般而且還不準時有時候還過站不停"},{"start":21629.326,"end":21650.559,"text":"那在醫療量能上呢台北他有10個醫學中心我們台東只有一個這個區域級的這個醫院也就是台東馬捷那交通不便加上這個距離遙遠我們的台東縣民如果遇到這個緊急傷病要就醫的時候我們常常都是在跟死神搶時間"},{"start":21653.032,"end":21676.886,"text":"而且大家不要忘記了我們台東呢還是這個風災跟這個地震的搖滾區隨隨便便一個這個牆台或或者這個牆陣來到我們台東那整個救災重建就要燒掉很多的錢我再舉一個例子最基礎的這個民生建設就是水"},{"start":21677.927,"end":21702.227,"text":"台北市自來水普及率已經將近百分百了那台東縣的普及率只有85%那我們隨便要處理一條自來水沿管的費用動輒都是數千萬但是我們這個台東人被財力列為第一級之後這個項目可以獲得的補助經費是零"},{"start":21704.088,"end":21709.542,"text":"一毛錢自來水的部分一毛錢都拿不到所以"},{"start":21712.112,"end":21736.769,"text":"我再舉一個可能大家更容易理解的例子就是一個是住地保那一個是低收入戶但是現在政府說以後每年會多給這位低收入戶的人多兩倍的補助那從今天開始你可以說這個低收入戶的人跟這個住地保財力等級的人是一樣的嗎"},{"start":21738.417,"end":21761.162,"text":"所以 署長你不覺得這樣是很不合理的嗎依照我們補助辦法第9條的規定 財力集市計算出來就是要請各部會依照這個財力集市來去分級去做補助但是我們還是有一些單數的規定 比如那個零必信的環保設施還有援助民族的重要建設"},{"start":21761.762,"end":21780.422,"text":"我跟你說我知道你會拿這一條來堵我的嘴巴但是我告訴你沒有自來水的地方不是只有原住民住而已非原住民也是有裝置自來水的需求所以我想在這個部分在未來來不及修法的情況下有沒有"},{"start":21781.417,"end":21794.993,"text":"任何的這個解套方式還是說怎麼樣 因為畢竟我覺得本席身為這個台東的女兒我要在這裡強烈的要求行政院"},{"start":21796.738,"end":21821.428,"text":"能不能來專案處理台東我們即將面臨的困境我也希望說趁這個機會好好檢討財力分級制度的公式應該納入縣市既有的基礎建設的情形而不是只有單單用統籌稅款的多少去進行判斷也不是光簡單看個面積 人口這樣子而已"},{"start":21824.271,"end":21831.802,"text":"讓這個台東縣可以免用第一級財力的這個負擔比例不然我們未來台東的發展接下來是無法想像的慘"},{"start":21834.9,"end":21855.808,"text":"剛才還沒有報告完這裡面還有一個是說如果還有第三點是專案報行政院核准那這三個例外那我們了解說先前因為第一級只有台北市所以很多部會他在規定的時候是把第一級列為不予補助或是說他的補助"},{"start":21856.648,"end":21880.807,"text":"補助比例比較低那現在因為整個財力集市發生了很大的變動第一級的部分現在有有四個縣市還包括新竹縣市這樣子那我們會把這一個規定那我們會請會請各部位來來注意因為現在這個財力分級第一級不只不只只有一個好像有四個"},{"start":21882.188,"end":21897.359,"text":"那另外我們還有一些比較例外的規定然後我們會請各部會去看他的計畫的性質再去修正他的補助作業要點好那所以如果是這樣子的話那就是"},{"start":21899.591,"end":21920.526,"text":"就變成說本期希望就是說同時我們各部會好然後所有地方政府必須自籌的這個政策跟計劃我們列出來好那也請各部會就是各項重大建設盡可能我們就都來提報提報院然後希望能夠核准我們大概就是能夠"},{"start":21922.543,"end":21931.355,"text":"走這條路後面那個行政院的這個版本如果不排入"},{"start":21932.61,"end":21960.493,"text":"討論的話那我們變成就是要用這樣的方式那就是說我想就是說盡量我們不要讓這個台東縣免用這個第一級財力負擔的比例因為這個確實對我們造成很大的影響我再請這個我們在行政院的部分要好好的去考量委員的意見我們會納入參考好謝謝"},{"start":21963.513,"end":21966.094,"text":"好 謝謝陳英委員那我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":22019.462,"end":22026.705,"text":"好好好"},{"start":22076.642,"end":22077.863,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22093.56,"end":22103.416,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22118.541,"end":22140.836,"text":"他們現在是後來再看 但是可以改成加了可以看"},{"start":22147.671,"end":22175.668,"text":"那是說因為台中有一個附近的環境測試那還有一個檢查那你說跟那個計畫其他的譬如說那個神蹟老鼠調查那被檢證的那些東西的部分是不是有一個專業的示範線那個應該也比較示範因為前面都不是很清晰然後我們那裡我剛才知道整套的有一個"},{"start":22177.654,"end":22188.111,"text":"阿我們去接觸一下"},{"start":22206.101,"end":22207.466,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22259.948,"end":22262.873,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":22291.203,"end":22291.305,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":22322.5,"end":22324.036,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22441.152,"end":22444.548,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22481.547,"end":22484.697,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":22617.627,"end":22620.35,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":22642.828,"end":22645.589,"text":"好繼續開會請林淑芬委員詢問好謝謝召委喔是不是請我們這個部長請石部長"},{"start":22661.963,"end":22684.07,"text":"林委員好保庭你好上個禮拜三台中榮總神經外科爆出這個醫學上的醜聞科主任兩位還有網紅有5.6萬名粉絲的網紅醫師對外還主打脊椎手術是吃飯的技能原來是業配的"},{"start":22685.49,"end":22711.967,"text":"业务医材厂商业务的技能然后在进行脊椎内试镜微创手术对骨刺、坐骨神经痛、椎间盘突出脊椎滑脱等症状处理的主要的微创手术在未经病人同意下在病人麻醉不知道的状况下放任无照的医材厂商业务手术指导"},{"start":22713.368,"end":22737.266,"text":"那時間還長達三年那提供的手術畫面非法的證據這個有主任有2023年就開始的也有去年的那我們都知道說據了解那個無照的醫材廠商長臉幫醫師執刀的綽號叫做小老鼠"},{"start":22738.769,"end":22748.213,"text":"更是台中榮總的名醫小老鼠是名醫隱形的地下的指定的主刀業待醫師"},{"start":22751.004,"end":22769.874,"text":"但其實是醫材廠商而且主要是針對內視鏡器材的相關更換他的專業幫微創手術內視鏡器材的相關更換是小老鼠的專業專業就這樣做著做著然後就變成名醫了"},{"start":22774.136,"end":22787.165,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面我們知道每台內視鏡手術大約大概花費10萬元可以完成的但據知情人士表示這些醫師 網紅醫師 主任"},{"start":22790.447,"end":22815.498,"text":"然後他們開了內視鏡手術加上自費的等等加起來30萬到40萬經常的是每個月開5台到10台來計算三年算下來至少有一兩百位的患者在被麻醉不知情的狀況裡面然後被醫材廠商業代醫師假醫師操刀部長你是說怎麼樣"},{"start":22820.63,"end":22846.604,"text":"跟委員說明在過去醫療行為我們把它明確的定義為核心業務跟輔助業務核心業務一定是醫師親自執行那麼手術麻醉我們都是把它定位為核心業務是要醫師親自執行的手術麻醉也是另一種專科也是醫師對 也是要醫師執行也是有另一種麻醉科"},{"start":22847.441,"end":22871.437,"text":"医师的执照的所以以脊椎手术或者是神经外科的手术这个如果是如同委员所提的这个涉及到是不是如同我所提的上个礼拜三你跟人家说一个礼拜以内你要提出调查报告到现在三四五六日今天第六天来说不是我提的"},{"start":22872.077,"end":22897.824,"text":"就是说我是要问你说你们调查的内容照我这个描述的内容那这个会涉及到医师法28条的密意罪那个是刑事责任的不是啊不对你都不知道你都不知道光是现在就可以伤害罪论处这一个小老鼠了那叫什么老鼠对小老鼠对吧不要讲医疗法伤害罪"},{"start":22901.391,"end":22916.304,"text":"傷害罪還有不要講醫療法醫師法不要講醫師法你知道現在這個醫師還有一起在密閉的手術房裡面的人共同涉及犯什麼罪嗎你不知道加重詐欺罪"},{"start":22923.823,"end":22938.279,"text":"加重詐欺罪 六個月以上不能緩刑 不能預科罰金這樣你聽得懂嗎 如果認真去調查不是這個醫生而已 你詐欺這個病人"},{"start":22943.574,"end":22956.861,"text":"當同伙三個人以上手術室不只三個人吧所以這個案子我們也請衛生局去調查但是沒錯 李鳳欣因為我們知道這個裡面醫療糾紛不受理"},{"start":22964.634,"end":22982.12,"text":"沒關係 加重詐欺跟傷害罪這個不是依究法的範疇喔 這普通刑法喔可以的喔 可以辦的喔但是他如果再加一個依究法沒辦法 沒辦法 依究法停擺"},{"start":22983.48,"end":23009.358,"text":"我們當時醫療法鑑定 停擺醫療法鑑定我現在問你 無照的醫材廠商跟刀跟刀變開刀 行之很多年了冰凍三尺 非一日之寒你知道你以前也處理過 你也對外講過你記得多久以前嗎"},{"start":23012.573,"end":23038.305,"text":"委員講的是哪一件2019年4月媒體披露醫界人士透露業帶跟進手術房教學兼販售的情形然後傳出有人從跟刀變動刀儘管醫師法禁止非醫療人員去指導但對於進入手術室的人員身份"},{"start":23039.225,"end":23064.806,"text":"並沒有限制一定得是醫療人員所以法規規範不到的模糊地帶大家問你說醫病安全該怎麼把關那現行法規2019年的時候人家也有問你有沒有限制進入手術房的人員的身份你怎麼幫醫病安全把關你當時是怎麼說我當時不記得"},{"start":23071.773,"end":23092.411,"text":"你說當時是司長他說新興的一些或新購的一些儀器設備在這個使用的初期的確有需要業者的協助說明那當務之急在實務上它有必要性但是你說手術一定是醫師親自執行的那麼其他的輔助助手也好器械也好"},{"start":23093.052,"end":23112.42,"text":"因為這是一個團隊的過程他一定有其他醫事人員的協助這個也沒有問題但是對於這個完全不具有醫事人員身份者他是不能夠直接來進來執行手術的那人家問你說可不可以進去手術室完全沒有資格的人可不可以進去手術室"},{"start":23114.164,"end":23140.261,"text":"然後你沒有正面回答你說有分區作業的管理規定包含清潔區、無菌區以及動線的規劃這些在醫院評鑑裡面有詳細的要求了所以你沒有回答那今天再問你一下今天這個業帶它已經有做好全身消毒的清潔那依照現行的法規它可不可以進去"},{"start":23141.786,"end":23164.925,"text":"我聽委員剛剛念的我當時候講的好像也都正確啦到至今仍然適用啦但是當時候我沒有回答到的今天要補充好你來補充就是說我們現在的醫療科技的進步確實有一些設備他需要有這個技術人員也好或者是熟悉這個設備的廠商也好進去協助"},{"start":23165.265,"end":23177.514,"text":"你的意思是說醫生要開刀以前對這些設備都還不熟悉囉還不熟悉就要幫病人抄刀然後使用這些設備這樣東西比較平衡沒有不是這樣那些東西要組裝啦要組裝啦"},{"start":23182.318,"end":23199.955,"text":"已经要准备要组装要组装比如说我们达文西手术那整支要怎么倒不是组装好了不是要组装不是组装好了我们才能起来不是他要组装然后医师才能操作所以他会进入到里面去协助现在很多"},{"start":23201.456,"end":23217.487,"text":"在现场所以你的意思是他们还是可以进入手术室但是必须要有规范比如说他要懂得这个手术室里面的无菌区跟这个那你们现在有规范吗"},{"start":23220.389,"end":23234.154,"text":"在这个正式上我们没有完全的规范是由医院内必须规范的纯粹医材的厂商的业务进去帮忙组装这些医材那现行有没有规范"},{"start":23235.382,"end":23251.514,"text":"我想我們要做一個指引讓醫院內部做成據我的了解很多醫院是有它自己內部有規範但是我們現在由衛福部來做一個指引我們來做讓所有的醫院的規範讓它一致性那我問你他們這個"},{"start":23256.617,"end":23276.611,"text":"無照醫材業務代表代刀集中在哪些科別人家說集中在骨科脊髓外科神經外科甚至因為這是一個業務的這個區域所以甚至集中在哪些醫院還是特定哪些區域你有沒有了解了"},{"start":23277.341,"end":23295.857,"text":"这个我们要再进一步了解科别因为这三个科听起来就是他的那个用的这些设备现在特别是这些机器手背之类的比较多所以医院都人力短缺然后你们现在就是要开放医材"},{"start":23297.285,"end":23319.719,"text":"廠商的助手可以進去手術的時候當助手你現在是要開放這個嗎我們要有一個指引來規範你是要開放這個嗎因為人力短缺嘛這個有它的必要性有它的必要性它有這個器械的熟悉度我現在找幾種視角有醫生曾經這樣講因為2019年人家就檢舉了然後就說了就問了"},{"start":23320.72,"end":23341.502,"text":"所以2019年江冠宇醫師也是蠻有名的聯合醫院中心院區的主治醫師他說他在臉書曾經說適用新醫材如骨科神經外科總會有一些新玩意兒出來但是操刀的醫師未必熟悉適當的角度這個時候有業代的協助操作空間"},{"start":23344.059,"end":23371.064,"text":"但是他說自己他將慣於跟過神經外科的刀大家都知道人力的關係那麼非技術性的如拉鉤這種刀柱等級都不到的根本是實習醫師等級的人手不夠就會請業代醫師代勞這樣主治醫師才有辦法跳刀去接另外一台刀就把今天的報表的"},{"start":23372.184,"end":23395.334,"text":"這個爆滿的刀錶給抄完所以這個是醫師曾經這樣子說那江冠宇醫師這個講法就是連醫師同儕之間 他也在證實醫材業務代表 業代代刀確實有此事喔已經不是去協助組裝醫材 是代刀喔"},{"start":23397.058,"end":23420.492,"text":"有这种事我们在未来的指引里面会把它理清楚他们进去之后能够做什么事不能够做什么事情还要应该有基本的哪一些训练指引人家信叨指引指引可以有足够的约束力吗指引这个后面就是我们刚刚提到的医疗法 医师法就会有相关的法则"},{"start":23422.433,"end":23447.542,"text":"醫師法都講了因為侵入性行為你這無照的醫師你做這種侵入性的醫師的行為都有刑責了他就沒在信道理啊你現在只做指引夠好這查明的如果是執行的醫師法第28條就有刑責了那個就是移送檢調啦"},{"start":23448.462,"end":23464.054,"text":"沒有啦 現在就變成常態啊要移送就完嗎我現在要跟你說喔 我剛才說的不要供醫施法有刑者喔加重詐欺罪連交保 連一顆罰金都不可以喔"},{"start":23465.615,"end":23494.192,"text":"加重詐欺罪 藉由醫生就要抓奇怪非怪不可再來傷害罪這個業務業待醫師 假醫師也有傷害罪 也要抓奇怪如果沒有人在怕 繼續做因為這些人知道沒有人 如果沒有檢舉沒有本人會出事現在我剛才講江冠宇醫師講的是什麼江冠宇醫師講的是"},{"start":23496.104,"end":23523.612,"text":"他說其實是證實啊 證實就是都這樣啊你再收一個指引要怎麼講有法律就不怕了還怕指引嗎法律都不怕了還怕指引嗎指引的目的是讓醫院按照我們的指引去定他的規範指引 有法律就要有處分有法律有處分 這才是法律的作用有法律放者不敢處分"},{"start":23524.732,"end":23534.919,"text":"這個法律沒好企啊現在就是可以去關門也不敢用查明了 該移送檢調就移送檢調這個沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":23536.122,"end":23561.735,"text":"這個有爆料的 有沒爆料的沒人知道我現在跟護理師講法護理師在臉書粉專貼文外行人覺得驚訝 內行人早已見怪不怪各大醫院中很多外科手術都由廠商業代在刀房協助完成這個是醫療界普遍認為早就是公開的秘密了"},{"start":23562.535,"end":23586.438,"text":"而且廠商為了求推廣產品必須手把手的教導醫師使用畢竟對自家產品最了解的是廠商不是醫師然後從專業跟經驗累積角度來看廠商執刀後的成果比專業的醫師本人操刀更完美也很正常"},{"start":23587.299,"end":23609.974,"text":"所以衍生一些問題比如說膽子越來越大的醫生可能如同放風箏一樣手越抓越鬆風箏越飛越遠搞到最後一個主治醫師同時守好幾間房仔細看全部都是業代跟住院醫師在開所以主治醫師變成從指導醫師變成監軍來調給的是這護理人員第一線在臉書上貼的他說"},{"start":23618.16,"end":23636.52,"text":"弔詭的是這樣的非法模式卻可以有效的擴張醫療量能甚至維護醫療手術的品質說到底這其實是醫療崩壞下人力短缺所產生出來的另一片知秋知夜"},{"start":23637.884,"end":23660.618,"text":"所以許多人包括我都認為應該趁機檢討現行法律跟制度無論是退場或是就地合法都應該給出明確的制度來保障各方權益然後不好聽的實話是事件的起源不是醫療疏失也不是因為他造成傷害然後去個個"},{"start":23661.919,"end":23687.913,"text":"讓大家盡量知道竟然事件的起源是來自於人們檢舉的不是那個病人去檢舉的還是去收購的都不是那中融最可能的處置方法就是懲處個別醫師對外宣稱將嚴格要求廠商遵守規定只能間接指導設備使用不可以接觸病人"},{"start":23689.434,"end":23700.547,"text":"也就是維持現狀而第一時間衛福部表明將個案處理大概也不會通盤檢討這是護理師這是護理師"},{"start":23707.008,"end":23728.04,"text":"那醫學中心怎麼講呢不具名的醫學中心高層表示醫療設備廠商進刀房幫忙是公開的秘密畢竟現在醫護人力嚴重不足把廠商當做人力使用很常見尤其是私立醫院凡事都要談成本廠商協助手術只要發揮"},{"start":23729.221,"end":23753.961,"text":"那個消毒手術的服裝口罩的費用幾乎零成本所以確實有聽說一些醫院讓業者協助開刀那這些醫材廠商的業務視角他們怎麼理解呢醫材廠商的業務說哎呀反正這個出問題了手術醫生一定會自己扛他們說他有一個叫小龍的這個是媒體報導的"},{"start":23756.291,"end":23771.431,"text":"他是大學傳播學系畢業的在朋友介紹下進入醫產公司擔任業務平常常跑醫院開發客戶沒有想到有一天竟然會被要求進開刀房協助醫師操作器械甚至參與手術關鍵步驟"},{"start":23773.513,"end":23796.039,"text":"然後他說 這個行業水很深醫材採購存在許多不成文的規則加上部分資深或有威望的醫師不願意花時間學習新器材的操作便把比較簡單的技術環節交給熟悉產品的業務處理久而久之就形成業務帶刀的灰色地帶"},{"start":23797.119,"end":23810.879,"text":"然後這個小龍爆料業務之所以敢禁手出事因為大家都心知肚明一旦出事了醫生他會說這是我帶刀的絕對不可能承認讓業務去直刀"},{"start":23812.622,"end":23827.903,"text":"所以只有誰不知道你知道嗎大家護理師也知道醫院也知道醫師也知道廠商的醫材廠商的業務也知道就只有誰不知道只有被麻醉躺在那裡的病人不知道還有衛福部不知道"},{"start":23829.437,"end":23855.606,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望說這個講出來問題很多 不對這要怎麼解決 要怎麼通盤檢討跟委員說明 我也問了幾位院長他們都跟我說沒有這回事但是既然委員提到說這個什麼網路上或媒體上這樣子的報導好像是一個蠻常見的現象那我們一定會正視這個問題"},{"start":23857.326,"end":23864.413,"text":"我現在要講說這個是房間裡面的大象大家都說沒有沒有"},{"start":23866.424,"end":23888.383,"text":"也不是只有台中中榮這個單一偶發事件那調查就局限在有提供證據的個案那我們講是你一定要從制度面通盤檢討你說的確立明確的指引或指原則甚至你應該要提的是吹哨者保護條款"},{"start":23890.47,"end":23912.589,"text":"對不對 你政府哪有這麼多的力量去監督然後呢在操刀手術的過程當中 我剛才講過這裏面參與到包括護理師 他知道他也已經會被控告 加重詐欺犯罪這裏面涉入到看到的"},{"start":23913.74,"end":23919.582,"text":"都加重詐欺犯罪你需要有一個吹哨者保護條款他如果出來檢舉了應該讓他免責啊不是嗎"},{"start":23933.378,"end":23951.883,"text":"這個跟委員說明第一個我們會重申會讓所有的醫院跟衛生局都了解這樣規範應該是怎麼規範那麼如果違反這個規範會涉及到的相關的罰則或者是法律的責任是什麼像如果大家都知道了醫師法第28條"},{"start":23954.844,"end":23961.907,"text":"我們要去重申他這個界線在哪裡那些人都結構性的犯罪如果出來檢舉的人自己也要有刑責是齁沒有人敢說如果說出來就有刑責會被告我覺得你更需要的可能是吹哨者保護條款免責出來檢舉的人免刑責是不是在這裡我告訴你"},{"start":23985.633,"end":24014.313,"text":"現在年紀到一個狀況以後追肩膀問題骨骼問題然後需要使用這些高單價的內視鏡微創醫療醫材的手術的人很多但是護理師出走刷手護理師流動率上升非教學醫院的骨科醫師沒有住院醫師也沒有經驗老道的刷手護理師要怎麼樣維持好的品質沒有辦法"},{"start":24015.314,"end":24028.927,"text":"人家沒去非教學型的醫院沒行李然後這個高收益的脊椎內視鏡微創手術成為骨科次專科當中的顯學行李最好"},{"start":24030.268,"end":24045.807,"text":"每項技術的成熟都跟學習曲線有關結果這種醫生要訓練好開這個刀至少要練20到100次才能獨立開好一台刀結果大家什麼要叫人做練習的大家也沒有人要做醫師練刀的對象"},{"start":24048.53,"end":24075.045,"text":"人力不足然後獲利壓力技術門檻三重狀況裡面專精於特定急隨內視鏡手術的廠商協助自然就進來了就成為醫療利益的共同默契換句話說啦這一種不法的行為已經固化到成為醫療產業鏈當中的共同默契還有生存的相互依賴"},{"start":24076.326,"end":24100.164,"text":"那你怎麼會抓得到 不可能抓得到所以你要如何去抓出揪出隱藏在手術燈下的不法行為你才能夠保障病患的權益啊我們現在說得難聽一點今天醫生的專業已經去受到挑戰了一個醫材商做操刀比你一個醫生還更賢熟這樣不就是醫生"},{"start":24103.735,"end":24132.061,"text":"對不對 做醫生的專業被挑戰耶然後你的管理和督導責任都沒了然後制度不嚴謹或明知或默許的不合規的情形發生然後醫院的行政責任只能說有檢舉這裡嗎沒有檢舉沒有如果檢舉下去呢大家都要行責事後你沒有吹哨者保護的條款所以這是常見的狀況但不合法也不合理啊"},{"start":24133.413,"end":24150.119,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面當商業利益滲透到醫療決策醫療行為的時候醫師的專業的建立你看蕩然無存日本也是這樣啊有指引啊日本的指引2008年就有醫療機構等場所醫療設備配備的標準"},{"start":24154.782,"end":24175.971,"text":"結果在去年日本還是發現醫材商在有指引的狀況裡面在手術過程當中還是在協助醫師操作X光設備啊所以我在這裡我是要告訴你說制度性的全面性的以外我現在第一優先建議催少者保護條款"},{"start":24178.462,"end":24203.316,"text":"沒什麼人跟我說 你說你制度面建立好了但是 也是繼續來這樣做啊因為就沒夠人啊 因為已經沒夠選手啊因為還需要人來選啊就白人在這裡罵罪啊 不知道 對白人不公平啊所以檢舉的條款 吹哨者保護啊吹哨者保護條款第一重要 你可以認為嗎你可以認同嗎"},{"start":24206.212,"end":24223.62,"text":"我們來研究看看不過應該要加重的是醫院管理者的責任因為醫院不是多大的空間加重這個醫院管理者的責任是首先現在你開放業帶可以進入手術房你現在說要訂指引要讓他們可以進去"},{"start":24225.101,"end":24245.516,"text":"有進去就有操作的空間了以前沒有開放業帶進去偷偷摸摸現在業帶進去你開放了偷偷摸摸進去裡面不用偷偷摸摸但在裡面做什麼更沒有人知道只有在裡面的人知道在裡面的人講出去每個人都犯法"},{"start":24246.377,"end":24268.637,"text":"你沒有給他催哨者保護 這樣更不可能平康啊醫院你看到這樣子而已 醫院的管理者也是很忙碌我們老實說 你說這件事真的是知識體大喔知識體大 所以我們在這個我們希望強化病人的知情權和參與喔"},{"start":24271.078,"end":24299.35,"text":"非醫療人員如果在場你不要忘了要以文件詳實記錄而且要取得受訴者知道吧我受訴者要知道誰參與我的醫療處置即便非醫療人員非醫事人員在場他是做什麼的也應該寫清楚我這刀裡面有誰是非醫事人員他也會進來他要做什麼至少讓當事人知道吧"},{"start":24300.71,"end":24319.176,"text":"應不應該這個我會通盤來檢討那麼也因應這個技術跟能力的需要因為我們其他還有就是我們本來就有輔助人力在嘛那個就是醫事人員背景的所以如果哪一些我們有需要這樣的這個"},{"start":24321.776,"end":24338.824,"text":"這個人力的協助的時候應該也要有一些訓練接受一些正規沒有啦 你以前可以入企的都是麻醉科不是超大醫師啦相關需要的醫事人員護理師麻醉科醫師現在是要醫財商可以入企你現在要開放嘛要入企可以耶你和受訴者知情權啦"},{"start":24344.707,"end":24366.136,"text":"他不能接觸病人簡單的講就是我要知道有人在萬一有醫療糾紛發生了我就可以知道有誰在有沒有可能非醫療人員非醫師搞阿蟲他當然提出他權力保障的時候他要去調資料看對不對灰色地帶要補的規範很多"},{"start":24367.637,"end":24388.592,"text":"但是我在這裡要強調要以病人安全為優先的統一規範要以病人中心主義來去做相關的制度面的彌補才是最重要的啦好 謝謝我們來把您的意見把它納進來好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":24390.489,"end":24404.662,"text":"接下來林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在林倩琦委員林倩琦委員林倩琦委員不在接下來請葉元之委員詢答麻煩請部長謝謝請市部長"},{"start":24419.445,"end":24442.959,"text":"今天大家討論兒童未來帳戶實際上衛福部本來也有一個線型的做法民進黨我看很多委員好像也說他們要一個做法在野黨也有一個做法我來跟這個部長請教一下其中差異第一個我先請問一下現在目前衛福部的做法是針對比較弱勢的家庭對不對一比一的方式要家長"},{"start":24444.78,"end":24470.86,"text":"提撥然後政府相對基金嘛先問一下甚至一定要家長有我們才會提撥嘛如果針對一些譬如說有一些我隨便舉例明年基金會譬如說家福基金會他們認養的一些孤兒然後他可能家長沒有提撥的這個部分你們有照顧到嗎那個安置而造我們有納入的安置那是誰幫他們出這筆錢"},{"start":24473.932,"end":24487.57,"text":"角路的錢縣市政府我們現在那個都是縣市政府列管的那個安置的額少那就是由縣市政府撥中央我們也會有"},{"start":24488.3,"end":24506.927,"text":"所以他們是直接縣政府就一律提撥因為你的你原本現金做法是可以選擇嘛有好幾種金額嘛五百一千一千二所以縣市政府針對那些我剛講比如說家福基金會他們照顧的孤兒然後縣市政府是支出多少是五百還是一千還是一千二"},{"start":24508.933,"end":24536.286,"text":"剛剛您提的那個是我們有分成是政府安置的跟民間的政府監護的才算我剛剛講民間我現在是確認 民間的就沒有就沒有所以今天部長你這邊在反對在野黨提出來的兒童外障其實你有一個依據你有一個立論基礎是講說你應該把資源用來照顧弱勢但實際上你弱勢有一大塊你沒有照顧到"},{"start":24537.917,"end":24556.189,"text":"這個我們可以來解答所以就並沒有達到你當初你的政策目標嘛這第一件事情那第二件事情是你的帳戶其實很多家長沒有加入嘛對不對那個比例是蠻高的嘛那我相信你也很知道原因嘛因為很多家長覺得說他的錢本來就不夠用還去存這個東西"},{"start":24557.39,"end":24585.251,"text":"所以並沒有達到照顧弱勢反而我覺得你這個政策應該從另外一個角度思考就是從解決少子化或者是讓比如說小朋友從小培養理財概念然後到他可以有他的比如說一個一畢業就有一筆錢讓他可以應用無後顧之憂從這個角度來思考這個政策應該要怎麼擴大你就可以考慮在黨版本我看民進黨的立委"},{"start":24586.292,"end":24605.548,"text":"有一個委員開記者會我是沒有看到具體的內容但是記者會他就是說他也是要擴大不是只有針對弱勢是大家都可以參加對不對但他也是採用1比1就是相對基金的做法然後用ETF的方式"},{"start":24606.209,"end":24616.179,"text":"那一開始這個民進黨立委他開會公佈的時候我看到媒體的報導政府單位是樂觀其成是覺得委員的想法不錯"},{"start":24617.384,"end":24639.541,"text":"怎麼到在野黨提出一個類似的也是類似版本只是說在野黨為什麼沒有要求說要相對基金是因為就是考慮到如果有一些家長他不願意加入的話那就剝奪了小朋友參加的權利結果忽然間部長又有意見說沒有财源又一大堆拒絕的理由說會排擠掉弱勢"},{"start":24640.382,"end":24660.784,"text":"那為什麼民進黨的委員提的就不會排擠弱勢國民黨或是藍白立委提的黨團版本就會排擠弱勢我就不懂這個標準到底是到底差異性在哪裡啊對啊 這個部長說明一下過去所有的版本我們大概都在評估啦"},{"start":24661.464,"end":24680.566,"text":"並沒有說支持哪一個一定反對哪一個都在評估但是以我們的政策上是以弱勢優先的考量我們目前是先就我們現有的這個帳戶呢如何來擴大這個適用的對象然後提高它的那個覆蓋率然後讓它更有效益"},{"start":24681.127,"end":24703.907,"text":"从这个地方先检讨至于说比较普惠性的那个也是一种选择但是我们就要衡量我们现在的财政能够负荷的哪一个的急迫性又比较重要那么就在前面先做所以你看有两件事情第一件事你一直强调说是对弱势的照顾可是要不是蓝白有提出这样一个未来账户的版本"},{"start":24705.069,"end":24730.506,"text":"你其實也沒有去檢討說你們這幾年來執行這個弱勢兒童的未來帳戶實際上參與率應該沒有達到你的預期嘛但是一直沒有去做出一些精心的做法包括我剛剛問的嘛如果是被民間收養的這些孤兒他們也沒有權利加入所以你都沒有注意到這一塊如果今天要不是召委排這樣的一個詢答的話"},{"start":24731.286,"end":24757.329,"text":"可能對於你之前的帳戶都有在研究啦有在研究但沒有改進嘛有在研究沒有改進啊第二件事情就是我剛講的你說各種版本你們都會仔細評估可是民進黨立委提的喔你們就覺得不錯啊可以來討論啊樂觀其成啊然後藍白提的你們就是說哎呀那個裁員在哪裡啊會不會排擠到這個現有的預算啊會不會影響到對弱勢的照顧啊喔這種"},{"start":24758.793,"end":24779.949,"text":"講法就南圓北側我希望衛福部如果說你要針對這個因為後續還會有公聽會還會有進一步的討論要一視同仁就事論事我們都一視同仁就事論事幾位委員請的版本衝擊財務的衝擊也各自不同今天這個版本的衝擊算是最大"},{"start":24781.11,"end":24792.784,"text":"那你有看到別人的版本嗎有有有之前的幾位委員的版本他的有的是沒有這個開戶金啦他只是每年的相對提撥所以他一年的預算衝擊有限"},{"start":24794.198,"end":24812.408,"text":"那但是今天這個版本因為又有一個這個開戶金所以這個大家可以討論嘛討論嘛但是我覺得不要因為不同政黨你們的回應就不一樣啦然後弱勢的照顧也要做到位啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":24817.45,"end":24835.581,"text":"好 謝謝葉元之委員發言本日會議詢答全部結束那委員嚴寬恆 楊耀 林思明 陳玉珍 林倩琪圖權及羅明才 陳培宇所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報做一下決議說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":24836.562,"end":24851.769,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定那現在請議事人員宣讀提案的條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":24854.079,"end":24879.602,"text":"本院國民黨黨團 台灣民眾黨黨團提案台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案第一條 為應應少子女化挑戰及解決跨世代貧富差距建置台灣未來帳戶制度透過政府家庭與企業共同投資及長期複利機制協助兒少累積發展性資本 落實人才培育發展平權保障其成年後之教育及創業資源特制定本條例"},{"start":24880.282,"end":24899.817,"text":"第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府第三條本條例用詞定義如下依台灣未來賬戶只依本條例規定以兒童或少年之名義開立供期滿18歲前自行存款及由政府撥付啟動金撥款額"},{"start":24903.239,"end":24922.315,"text":"撥補款 企業贊助款 基金投資收益之個人帳戶而結餘金額則指個人帳戶內的總額二 開戶人 指完成開立臺灣未來帳戶之兒童或少年三 啟動金 指臺灣未來帳戶開立後第一年由中央主管機關撥入新臺幣五萬元開戶定額款項"},{"start":24925.878,"end":24952.814,"text":"四 撥補款 指臺灣未來帳戶開立第二年至開戶人12歲 指每年由中央主管機關撥入新臺幣1萬元定額款項五 自存款 指以開戶人名義自行存入其臺灣未來帳戶之款項每年每帳戶以新臺幣10萬元為限至開戶人12歲 指六 企業贊助款 指臺灣未來帳戶開戶人其法定代理人之僱主贊助而存入之款項"},{"start":24953.494,"end":24969.628,"text":"每年每賬戶以新台幣五萬元為限至開戶人十二歲止或直接捐贈基金之款項第四條中央主管機關長理下列事項一 台灣未來賬戶之政策法規與相關措施之規劃訂定宣導及國際交流二 台灣未來賬戶之開辦基金運用與提領機制之規劃協調及監督"},{"start":24976.994,"end":25002.708,"text":"三對直轄市縣市主管機關執行臺灣未來帳戶相關工作之監督協調及獎勵四其他全國姓臺灣未來帳戶之相關事項第五條直轄市縣市主管機關長理下列事項一臺灣未來帳戶之推動執行及宣導二對臺灣未來帳戶開戶人與其家庭提供相關協助服務之規劃及執行三其他地方姓臺灣未來帳戶之相關事項第六條"},{"start":25003.388,"end":25026.939,"text":"本条例适用对象为中华民国102年9月2日以后出生未满12岁之中华民国国民且在中华民国境内住有且在中华民国境内有住所并年度居住中华民国境内满183天者第七条中央政府依本条例置印台湾未来账户以13年为其成所需经费上限为新台币4500亿元"},{"start":25028.42,"end":25043.36,"text":"並以特別預算方式編列分期辦理預算籌編及審議其預算編制不受預算法第23條不得充經常支出規定之限制前項所需經費來源得以一用以前年度稅計剩餘"},{"start":25044.762,"end":25060.869,"text":"或舉措債務之應但執行期間尚有以前年度稅計剩餘可供一用時因優先之應不得舉借債務其每年度舉借債務之額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算"},{"start":25061.269,"end":25084.189,"text":"及特別預算於本條例施行期間之舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數之百分之十五本條例施行期間中央政府所舉接之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數因依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理行政院因依據第一項合定之結果"},{"start":25085.59,"end":25112.297,"text":"編列本條例特別預算案附具各項書件及報告送請立法院審議已依本條例執行之計畫仍列入特別預算案時應另附計畫執行績效報告第八條中央主管機關應定其邀集學者專家及相關機關代表協調諮詢及推動臺灣未來帳戶相關事項前項學者專家及機關代表任意性別不得少於三分之一"},{"start":25112.757,"end":25135.338,"text":"第九条 中央主管机关应就台湾未来账户之执行情形进行研究每三年公布一次研究报告作为政策检讨与精进之依据第二章 专户之提交与请领第十条 台湾未来账户之收支保管等业务由主管机关委托劳动部劳工保险局以下简称劳保局办理之"},{"start":25136.359,"end":25162.511,"text":"臺灣未來帳戶之運用經營及管理等業務由主管機關委託勞動部勞動基金運用局以下簡稱基金運用局辦理該基金之經營及運用基金運用局得委託金融機構辦理委託經營規定範圍及經費由基金運用局擬定報請中央主管機關核定之本條例之啟動金撥補款自存款及企業贊助款"},{"start":25163.447,"end":25190.719,"text":"應儲存於臺灣未來帳戶勞保局設立之開戶人個人專戶第十一條勞保局與基金運用局對於臺灣未來帳戶基金之財務收支應分戶立帳並與其辦理之其他業務分開處理其相關之會計報告及年度決算應依有關法令規定辦理並由基金運用局彙整報請主管機關備查臺灣未來帳戶基金之收支運用"},{"start":25191.799,"end":25207.302,"text":"與其積存金額及財務報表基金運用局應按月報請主管機關備查主管機關應按年公告之第十二條直轄市縣市主管機關之西轄內涉及之兒童及少年符合第六條所定條件者"},{"start":25207.762,"end":25225.595,"text":"因自知悉之日起三個月內列冊報中央主管機關通知承辦機構於第十條第二項之總帳戶下開立臺灣未來帳戶及撥入啟動金中央主管機關得公告年度存款上限金額內可擇定之每月自存"},{"start":25226.616,"end":25244.493,"text":"自存款金額開戶人之法定代理人或最近親屬任意人得向直轄市縣市主管機關申請變更原則定之每月自存款金額經各該主管機關核准後列冊報中央主管機關通知承辦機構變更之一年以變更一次為限"},{"start":25245.214,"end":25264.568,"text":"第十三條開戶人其法定代理人或最近親屬因每月依責定之自存款金額存入臺灣未來帳戶致開戶人滿十八歲止但有特殊情形者得於每年度得於每年年度終了前辦理補存開戶人於前項存入自款"},{"start":25265.248,"end":25284.24,"text":"自存款之期間內不得提領其臺灣未來賬戶之節餘金額但有第19條至第21條所定情形者不在此限第14條中央主管機關應就開戶人之法定代理人或最近親屬任意人之自存款提供綜合所得稅列舉扣除"},{"start":25284.74,"end":25301.856,"text":"且免納贈與稅額度之計算中央主管機關應對企業贊助款之企業提供獎勵及免稅措施簽兩項之獎勵與免稅對象範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第15條中央主管機關應定其編制台灣未來帳戶之啟動金"},{"start":25305.579,"end":25323.855,"text":"撥補款 自存款 企業贊助款基金投資收益及其他相關資訊提供地方主管機關轉資開戶人之息第十六條台灣未來賬戶基金收支保管業務及基金之運用經營及管理業務之監理應聘請政府機關代表"},{"start":25324.595,"end":25351.108,"text":"開戶人代表專家學者及相關團體代表組成以臺灣未來賬戶基金監理會以下簡稱監理會行之前項監理會之監理事項程序人員組成任期與聆聘及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第十七條臺灣未來賬戶基金統一管理運用時收益不得低於以當地銀行二年定期存款利率計算之收益"},{"start":25351.568,"end":25363.883,"text":"如有不足由國庫補足之開戶人之賬戶節餘金額自滿十八歲之日起至辦理結清賬戶提領之日子之收益並應繳納綜合所得稅承辦機構"},{"start":25365.706,"end":25395.386,"text":"於給付收益時應辦理所得稅扣繳及申報第十八條台灣未來賬戶基金應以安全穩健為原則運用基金投資標的以國內股票與債券或者證券公司發行的受益憑證之合格投資標的為限基金之具體投資方式比例風險控管及內部監督機制由主管機關定之主管機關應建立基金運用之內部控制及風險管理制度"},{"start":25397.007,"end":25416.538,"text":"並定期辦理績效評估前項基金之運用情形及相關財務資訊應定期公告並送立法院被查第三章 帳戶請領及結清第十九條直轄市縣市主管機關應與開戶人滿十八歲一個月前通知其檢據帳戶結餘金額用途相關證明辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領並結清帳戶前項帳戶結餘金額用途"},{"start":25424.262,"end":25438.127,"text":"以助於開戶人就學、就業、職業訓練、創業、購屋自備款及租屋費為限直轄市縣市主管機關審查開戶人提出之帳戶結餘金額用途相關證明符合前項帳戶結餘金額用途者"},{"start":25440.729,"end":25459.325,"text":"轉請中央主管機關辦理提領開戶人臺灣未來帳戶節餘金額並結清帳戶未提出帳戶節餘金額用途相關證明或經審查不符前述帳戶節餘金額用途者轉請中央主管機關辦理提領自存款及企業贊助款並結清帳戶"},{"start":25460.846,"end":25476.537,"text":"開戶人於滿18歲之日起10年內因死亡而未依前二項規定辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領及結清帳戶者得由原為其開戶之法定代理的人或最近親屬任意人申請提領該帳戶之結餘金額並結清帳戶經直轄市縣市主管機關審查核准後報請中央主管機關辦理之"},{"start":25484.402,"end":25499.177,"text":"開戶人及法定代理人或最近親屬任意人依第二項後段或前項規定請領帳戶結餘金額者或於開戶人滿18歲之日起10年內前述權利人未依前三項規定申請提領及結清帳戶者開戶人臺灣未來帳戶所餘款項"},{"start":25502.96,"end":25526.098,"text":"归属基金收入有关结金账户责成主管机关另定办法处理之第二十条未满18岁之开户人因死亡罹患严重疾病或为严重身心障碍时其法定代理人或最近亲属任意人得向直辖市县市主管机关申请提领账户结余金额经各该主管机关审查核准后"},{"start":25527.279,"end":25547.78,"text":"轉請中央主管機關辦理提領並結清帳戶前項所稱嚴重疾病及嚴重身心障礙之範圍由中央主管機關公告之第21條開戶人喪失國籍且未曾依規定辦理臺灣未來帳戶款項之請領及結清帳戶者轉請中央主管機關辦理提領自存款"},{"start":25548.2,"end":25572.982,"text":"及企業贊助款並結清帳戶第二十二條開戶人向直轄市縣市主管機關申請退出臺灣未來帳戶該管主管機關因自其申請日期一年內派員輔導期滿後開戶人仍決定退出者得請領該帳戶內資自存款及企業贊助款並結清帳戶該帳戶之基金投資收益歸屬國庫第二十三條"},{"start":25573.642,"end":25588.44,"text":"开户人办理账户结清后不得重新申请开立台湾未来账户第四章负责第24条开户人之台湾未来账户结余金额均不记录其他法规所定之家庭总收入或家庭财产"},{"start":25589,"end":25597.027,"text":"且不得作為抵銷扣押供單保或強制執行之標的開戶人依第十九條規定提領帳戶結餘金額前得檢據直轄市縣市主管機關出具之臺灣未來帳戶結餘金額證明文件與金融機構開立專戶專攻存入前開帳戶結餘金額之用"},{"start":25609.727,"end":25632.347,"text":"前項專戶內置賬戶節餘金額於開戶人滿18歲之日起10年內準用第一項規定第25條主管機關為執行本條例相關工作所需之個人資料得洽請相關機關購法人團體或個人提供之受請求者無正當理由不得拒絕第26條主管機關得接受各界捐贈款"},{"start":25633.027,"end":25653.506,"text":"用於臺灣未來賬戶基金專款專用 第27條本條例自公佈日施行 第28條行政院因與本條例生效後一個月內將依本條例編列之特別預算案送交立法院審議本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之 宣讀完畢"},{"start":25662.947,"end":25680.375,"text":"好 今天的議程依據早上的公式就先進行到此現在做一下決議台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案尚未審查完均 另則期繼續審查那本次會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}