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現在開始開會今天進行黨團協商台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒之不在即投票法草案案本案經114年12月12號本屆第四會期第13次會議院會決定進副二讀並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商因此我們今天在本次會議進行黨團協商"},{"start":1860.105,"end":1878.319,"text":"首先介紹在場的各個黨團的代表右手邊的有民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳培宇委員中國國民黨的徐宇貞委員台灣民眾黨的張祺凱委員陳昭智委員今天也感謝各個行政機關"},{"start":1880.086,"end":1903.2,"text":"有派相關的人員出席那中選會目前的代理主委吳榮輝代理主委非常感謝代理主委波隆出席那其他各行政機關的代表因為時間的關係我就不一一介紹要不然這些名字唸完可能要一段時間請各個行政機關的代表多見諒好那接下來再進入"},{"start":1910.407,"end":1939.286,"text":"現在就開始協商了是不是先請提案的台灣民眾黨黨團的代表是張綺凱委員請張綺凱委員今天這個協商非常重要因為這個不在籍投票在全世界先進國家的島都已經實施多年了日本在1998年就是27年前就開始實施了"},{"start":1940.287,"end":1960.544,"text":"我們中華民國說自己叫科技大國竟然到今天它都還沒有南韓是2009年連很多移工在我們台灣的這個印尼印尼是2014年12年前印尼就有了就是在有些移工在台灣在工作的同時他們都已經在行駛海外"},{"start":1962.11,"end":1981.763,"text":"海外這個投票了結果他們在不在即投票台灣竟然到現在遠遠落後於印尼跟菲律賓真的有點丟臉更重要的我們號稱科技大國啊所以今天我看到中選會怎麼想包括怎麼實施不在即投票會有風險啊怎麼對自己這麼沒有信心這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":1982.878,"end":1999.631,"text":"今天陸委會也提了一個說明我們要很明確的證明這一次台灣民眾黨所提出來的這個案子只有在自由地區就是台澎金嘛沒有在海外也沒有在對岸所以請不要"},{"start":2001.056,"end":2024.656,"text":"請弄清楚那個範圍好不好請陸委會還有一些民進黨立委不要抹紅第三個也非常重要這個不在其投票不只是民主國家先進國家一直都是在做在台灣對於我們很多北漂南漂或者是戶籍在外面的協子或者是軍公教的這個人員是那一天要負責顯霧工作的這個人員"},{"start":2026.691,"end":2048.276,"text":"對爭取他們的投票權都非常重要他可以省時間我可以省時又可以省時間這個是非常重要的所以記憶上面三個理由我們非常的期待在這個會期之前可以趕快把這個所謂科技大國的台灣而且是定位只有在台澎金馬趕快完成三讀 謝謝"},{"start":2051.18,"end":2057.02,"text":"好 謝謝張祺楷委員那接下來不曉得哪一個黨團的代表要發言好 來請民進黨的陳培宇委員"},{"start":2058.237,"end":2080.868,"text":"好 謝謝提案黨團的說明我要說今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商我先說結論今天根本是一場不應該召開的協商在立法院確實有很多法案可以淨附二讀但是很可惜我們看到有這麼多不在即投票今天淨附二讀被拿到協商會場上來討論的只有你民眾黨黨團的版本我就問"},{"start":2085.47,"end":2107.258,"text":"今天國民黨的代表徐玉珍委員你也坐在這裡我們來看一下還有多少所謂藍白和國民黨委員你們的提案版本被丟包在委員會待審但是你們今天卻要坐在這裡幫民眾黨說話第一個行政院的版本當然我可以理解藍白不想理行政院的版本好你們不處理也就算了"},{"start":2109.339,"end":2136.89,"text":"鄭天才的委員在內政委員會他談的是全國公民性投票蘇巧慧委員談的也是全國性公民投票牛許廷國民黨的委員一樣被丟包在內政委員會待審徐宇貞委員您的版本也被丟包在內政委員會待審而你今天決定坐在這裡幫助民動黨處理他們荒謬的提案有多麼荒謬我們等一下來說林思銘委員的版本葛如軍委員的版本魯明哲委員的版本鄭天才委員第二個版本"},{"start":2137.57,"end":2157.623,"text":"羅廷偉委員的版本 王宏威委員 陳金輝委員 洪孟凱委員有兩個版本一樣被丟包 最後是武力化委員的版本我就問 為什麼要禁賦二讀這麼多委員的版本被丟包在委員會 不願意實質討論而你民眾黨委員的版本 民眾黨黨團提案又比較厲害 比較高級 比較偉大嗎為什麼可以直接禁賦二讀 不用放在委員會討論呢我就問 當你要說台灣是先進國家的時候"},{"start":2165.908,"end":2170.693,"text":"你要不要去看一下別的先進國家在討論這些法案細節的時候大家是多麼在意執行的細節大家多麼在意基層公務人員面對這個不在即投票選務的建議請問你們有聽基層選務人員的建議你們有聽所有行政單位的建議嗎你們今天就選擇把民眾黨黨團的版本進覆二讀然後今天協商"},{"start":2187.25,"end":2198.755,"text":"是不是打算禮拜五就過水處理表決了呢然後宇珍委員你的版本被丟包在委員會所以你禮拜五也打算一併幫忙提案了嗎一併幫忙表決通過了嗎我覺得非常的荒謬所以我剛才會說先說結論今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商喔再來我要說所有行政單位的建議所有基層選務公務人員的聲音你們都去聽了嗎你們都問了嗎你們都收集到了嗎今天不是科技不科技的問題"},{"start":2216.682,"end":2240.627,"text":"就連很多國家都說台灣的投票方法這件事情是值得學習的它可以避開很多擔心的問題最後我要說民進黨黨團也提了一個所謂民主價如果我們希望促進投票又希望在民主的機制底下保障不要有各式各樣的外力介入那請支持民進黨黨團提案的民主促進價"},{"start":2244.096,"end":2267.559,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝民進黨黨團代表的發言中歐國民黨黨團的代表請謝謝主席我想剛剛陳培宇委員特別下了一個結論我覺得也不用這樣妄下結論因為其實我們今天坐在這裡協商其實就是要大家廣泛的討論那當然不在即投票涉及選舉制度的一個重大的變革"},{"start":2268.32,"end":2286.702,"text":"所以當然一定要先取得這個社會有共識之前以及中選會做好配套之後為前提才能夠進行所以其實針對民主黨黨團提出的這個移轉投票的部分並適用在中央跟地方公職人員選舉跟全國性的公民投票"},{"start":2287.082,"end":2305.183,"text":"那國民黨團認為就是現階段的社會共識仍有不足建議繼續協商凝聚共識後再推動那當然我想今天這個協商其實就是凝聚共識的其中一環所以說其實我覺得陳培委員不用這麼緊張一開始就先下了一個結論其實今天就是大家可以共同討論"},{"start":2306.024,"end":2310.927,"text":"那當然就是說剛剛我們也提到其實中選會這個代理主委在這邊我們也想知道說針對我們現在的這個假設一轉投票到底中選會在施行上有什麼樣的困難比如說包括涉及選舉人名冊的編造跨縣市的投票轉換還有須高度依賴戶籍跟選務系統的這個精準對接那中選會跟戶政機關是不是已經做好完整的配套我想今天中選會代理主委也可以在這邊做一個說明"},{"start":2335.459,"end":2347.584,"text":"重點是我想這是一個針對先進國家其實我想都需要的一個公民投票但是我想剛剛我們提到這兩項的問題今天可以一起來共同討論 謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員吳代理主委今天你也撥攏前來你有沒有想要說些什麼來 請"},{"start":2360.037,"end":2367.992,"text":"主席還有我們黨團各位立委我想這樣子我站在中選會立場我必須要去表達不在其投票法"},{"start":2368.956,"end":2396.422,"text":"的這個訂定我們說不在即投票的確可以讓我們的這個選舉人在行使投票的時候他的可及性跟這個便利性的確會有可是他的前提必須說我們選入的可行性不能影響選入的可行性還有一個你這個實施了這個不在即投票你必須不能影響到選舉競爭的公正性跟他結果被信賴"},{"start":2398.143,"end":2413.155,"text":"所以我這裡要特別說如果假設我們實施了不在籍投票那個選務的負荷量會非常大但是我們必須要了解所有選務的工作它是有它的極限性"},{"start":2414.844,"end":2441.11,"text":"工作人員不是超人他也不是無敵鐵金剛所以你一直加他的工作說他都沒有問題過度的嫌污的負荷就會造成嫌污的混亂跟他的災難那我隨便舉個例來講我們說以我們這裡的空間假設是一個投開票所的話我們要移轉的票假設我們全國現在要移轉的票地方公職人員總共有多少種總共有8896種"},{"start":2444.366,"end":2453.122,"text":"那一個投開票的時候不要疑這麼多啊我疑你這個100種就好了各位都有去投過票"},{"start":2454.127,"end":2477.345,"text":"各位看到投票開票的時候是開票以後我就在牆壁上計票我們光是要貼那些票你根本就沒地方貼你怎麼貼到哪裡貼到天花板你也沒得貼還有一個我在開票的時候我還要去講說這是嘉義縣的某某議員的選票還是說村議長的選票那這是高雄的選票"},{"start":2478.326,"end":2506.473,"text":"如果假設我現在 我現在說這一個對不起 齊凱我說張齊凱一票萬一這所有種類裡的張齊凱 蔡齊安 整大堆我還要去看是哪一縣市的張齊凱那根本你做不到的事情而且會亂掉會亂掉 這是一個開票還有一個你去投票領票的時候本來假設我們這個票平常如果不不再去投票沒有實施 沒有移轉投票的話我們可能只有六張票 七張票"},{"start":2507.557,"end":2534.689,"text":"可是現在你把移轉的全國移轉過來以後光是那個領票的桌子排了有多少票你怎麼去領票你就會產生混亂這根本就沒辦法做的事情還有一個我們現在講說移轉投票這個是等於全國的物流因為你選票是在移動你選票在移動那光是你選票的運送過程你還必須要警察人員去跟隨"},{"start":2537.203,"end":2550.317,"text":"人力物力的影響非常大還有一個我們說以台北市跟新北市跟金馬地區為例這些外來人口特別多"},{"start":2551.738,"end":2571.437,"text":"那這裡就變成說大部分的人在這個都會區那移轉投票到這個都會區來勢必會造成一百零七年邊領票邊投票那個時間啊以我們這樣一估的移轉投票我那開到隔天的清晨這個六點你都開不完了"},{"start":2572.452,"end":2586.252,"text":"都開不完還有一個金馬地區各位不要忘了台商他的移轉投票他一定透過小金門也許從那邊比較近那我們講說我們以我們統計以金門的這個選票才才這個12萬人"},{"start":2589.578,"end":2615.99,"text":"連江的選票才一萬一千多如果台商不要移多少一個兩三萬過來他們就掛掉了因為他們的工作人員只有兩個三個在那邊他的人力的招募就有問題所以這個我們都必須要去考量執行變當然政策變你說移轉投票當然好這個我們減少社會成本這個都OK但是你要考慮選務的可行性如果選務不可行再好的法令"},{"start":2617.19,"end":2643.347,"text":"都跟空中樓格一樣沒有意義所以我們必須要考慮到這個實際執行片所以為什麼一直我們中選會的立場就是說能不能先公投再來選舉公投先來試看看那因為至少它是一個全國性的選區就好像總統選舉它是全國選區如果總統選舉或者是這個全國公投那它要實施移轉投票這個OK 這沒問題但偏偏我們的這個選舉都是合併選舉"},{"start":2646.67,"end":2655.48,"text":"比如說總統選舉跟立法會合併那他的選票就有多少就總統選票一種這個區議會74種原民的有兩種政黨票有一種加起來77種那77種全國在移動"},{"start":2663.739,"end":2687.912,"text":"簽過再移動那你說選務他會不會亂 肯定亂那亂的結果就可能影響到選舉的公正性他選舉結果就可能因為選務出了錯了那各位也許說那是你選務問題這不是選務問題就像我剛剛講選務它這個極限性吧你再教了他都總是有他的極限就算是機器你為了他帶多資料他還會掛掉啊"},{"start":2688.712,"end":2714.639,"text":"所以各位委員一定要考慮到執行面如果不可行的話不要貿然去這個推動不在即讓我們從公投先試看看公投走了沒有問題了或哪些需要改善的改善完了以後我們再來做人的選舉那先從移轉的再到其他方式我想這個是我們這個先會一貫的立場我們不希望吃緊都破碗"},{"start":2715.407,"end":2735.094,"text":"到時候不然會走路要耳背我覺得這個是很危險的事情我想這是我們這個中選會的這個意見好 謝謝 謝謝吳代理委員那接下來還有沒有其他黨團的委員要再發表高見好 那個好 那我們進行第二輪的討論來 請張綺凱委員"},{"start":2738.251,"end":2746.115,"text":"謝謝吳代理主委的體貼張啟凱這個名字我到目前只看過一次了不是蔡啟阿妹啟動的啟 沒的這個啟真正有候選人是蔡啟阿妹你們事先應該完成作業這個不會是問題啦那我剛剛看你的這個說明你對政策面是沒有意見嘛 對不對那講的是技術面跟執行我剛剛就舉的例子啦"},{"start":2759.554,"end":2781.027,"text":"日本在1998年日本人口應該比我們多很多吧我們還講我們科技比他進步為什麼技術面這個是做不到的連我剛剛都特別提醒了連印尼都在做耶印尼已經實施了12年耶印尼的科技跟他們選委會的水準比起來我們的選委會數值應該很高吧有比他們差嗎"},{"start":2782.228,"end":2793.23,"text":"我是覺得既然政策面定了不要妄自菲薄我覺得我們的中選會跟各個縣市的這個選委會的人員數值是高的經驗也非常非常豐富只要"},{"start":2795.717,"end":2824.397,"text":"用心去做然後事先規劃好我認為沒有問題甚至我們要幫他們熱烈鼓掌感謝他們長久的經驗跟他們的這個素質是很高的那另外剛剛民進黨也提到說這個法案沒有經過討論我要提醒這個陳委員其實我民國七十兩年的早期犯例這個案子以前民進黨都提過好多好多民進黨立法院提過你去翻一下最近這三四十年來這個案子非常非常的多包括你們剛特別一開始在講什麼"},{"start":2825.936,"end":2845.401,"text":"有到對岸去投票的你們對這個案子到目前為止我看民進黨發言最多的就是在講說大陸的民眾會台商或者什麼在大陸去的人會回來灌票這個案子就清清楚楚我們已經澄清了五六次你每次都來講是大陸人民這次就是很清楚這個是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":2846.661,"end":2867.519,"text":"只有台澎金馬事實上這個也是回應剛剛吳代理主委他的範圍就是限縮的非常非常小的啦我相信只要是有心有心 當然你提了一個方案你說從公投開始來做啦這或許是一個考慮的方案不過我相信依照我們的經驗依照我們的素質台灣的水準要實施這個國內移轉投票應該是沒有問題的好 謝謝張祺凱委員那不曉得其他黨團的代表還有沒有要發言的"},{"start":2876.636,"end":2900.196,"text":"好來請民進黨黨團的代表鍾嘉斌鍾委員謝謝主席主席辛苦了飛行幾十個小時那我們今天又連續開三場的協商很敬佩那因此呢今天我們的第一個題一個協商的主題是不在即投票的叫休選罷法簡單講那選罷法就跟任何比賽的遊戲規則一樣它必然是要是中性的"},{"start":2900.876,"end":2928.082,"text":"那選務工作人員他必然是中立的而選務的工作他就像接生婆就像助產室一樣他不能夠改變出生者的性別他只求能夠順利的生產完成分娩的過程我想剛剛代理主委他所表述的就是選務工作的本質中性 中立不會對結果產生影響"},{"start":2929.022,"end":2943.789,"text":"但是剛剛代理主委憂心忡忡就是說什麼情況之下會造成生產的結果不順利選舉的結果沒辦法順利的誕生這個選務工作自為重要所以有時候"},{"start":2945.66,"end":2960.864,"text":"胎兒的健康沒問題母體也很OK但是如果接生的過程造成了一些繁瑣的事情造成了難產那恐怕就不是選民所樂見的所以我覺得還是要回歸到選務的務實的考量"},{"start":2964.065,"end":2988.687,"text":"那剛剛張旗開委員提到說我們的提案很多樣嘛 沒有錯啊其實我們今天不是為了提案的內容的差異來這裡進行協商今天我們協商主要的成如就是我們國民黨的徐委員所說的因為包括他自己的提案都沒有在委員會可以來進行討論那我們看了一下這麼多的提案真的耶"},{"start":2990,"end":3007.81,"text":"有針對選總統副總統的有針對立委的有針對地方公職人員的又針對公投的那麼以徐委員的而立呢他是總統副總統立法委員和全國性的公投跟本案的含色範圍很接近因為本案呢還有一個地方選舉"},{"start":3009.051,"end":3027.644,"text":"那也就是說每個委員的提案他指稱的選舉項目不一樣含釋的範圍多寡不一樣那這樣的一個複雜多元的提案老實說不是在協商就我們有限的時間跟人員在進行溝通而是呢協商啊其實是在委員會討論"},{"start":3029.545,"end":3057.416,"text":"有一個大致的眉目方向後凝聚到少數的幾個爭點我們出了委員會到協商的地方這樣的協商才會有效率如果連在委員會這麼多版本的樣式的提案都沒有經過討論然後我們也不曉得爭點是那麼發散就像張七號委員認為說有人的指責民主黨的版本是什麼海外投票我也不曉得他指涉的是哪一個人的提議講的是哪一個版本"},{"start":3057.816,"end":3081.471,"text":"因為版本這麼多我們怎麼知道民眾黨的版本跟其他版本有哪些的差異真的沒有經過委員的審查這些版本之間的差異我們無從了解也是剛剛呢代理主委說到說我才知道原來我們從小到大習慣的開票模式會在牆上貼計票單每張計票單就代表一項選舉但是如果全國"},{"start":3082.881,"end":3090.698,"text":"不在籍投票可以在一個投開票手同時的話有8000項的選舉的項目那個組合排列組合有8000項"},{"start":3092.878,"end":3121.656,"text":"投開票所怎麼去張貼這個計票單那更不要說領票要怎麼去領那想到這些大家就頭皮發麻那我想今天主席常常說全國人民都在看我不曉得這個協商的轉播有沒有關心公共事務的選民在看但是如果他有在看的話他就理解到今天我們討論的是一個有投票經驗的人如果年紀較長的經歷過那麼多次的投票他都能夠理解我們代理主委所說的那種樣貌"},{"start":3122.597,"end":3145.051,"text":"那種情況那如果連一般的選民都可以理解代理主委所說的那一種多元複雜的情況那我們立法院是不是更該負責任的來好好的討論呢所以我其實在立場上是接近徐委員的立場就是國民黨認為這些提案呢我們知道了那未來我們可以有更充裕的時間"},{"start":3146.573,"end":3162.793,"text":"讓社會更多的了解來進行討論畢竟選舉啊 知識體大那麼其實我也了解到今天這個提案的民眾黨黨團的成員或許有時間的緊迫感可能陳昭志委員比較沒有啦但是我們都知道"},{"start":3163.574,"end":3178.564,"text":"鐵打的銀杖流水的兵啊黨團每一個民進黨每一個黨團包括民進黨在內我們都相信每個政黨提出的不管是區域立委還是部分區的委員區議員能夠當選進入到立法院來服務的都是非常優秀的"},{"start":3179.204,"end":3203.205,"text":"不分區的委員能夠進入名單的得到選民的 肯認的都是合格的所以我是建議民眾黨黨團或許不要給自己那麼大的時間壓力縱使我們的會期我們下個會期再下個會期我們還有時間討論因為提案是屆期才不連續我們這些提案在本屆2028年之前我們都有機會討論那麼2026的選舉將屆"},{"start":3207.388,"end":3227.131,"text":"如果我們在這個時候去討論這個議題難免會讓現在的參選人有些憂慮就像當年的丁守中委員一樣他參選台北市長後來因為公投跟地方選舉一起舉辦他還去申請司法的去查驗票我們不像他遺憾的情形在發生所以在這裡誠懇的呼應"},{"start":3227.952,"end":3251.483,"text":"我們國民黨黨團的意見也呼籲我們民眾黨黨團不要有時間壓力 屆期不連續這麼多的提案回歸到委員會好好的來審查我相信全國的民眾都願意能夠將我們的選舉規則越修越完善選務工作越做越順利我想選務工作絕對不要因為個案"},{"start":3252.603,"end":3277.718,"text":"因為一些政黨個別的考量因為選務是中立的選務的規則是中性的我再次的提出這些規則的修改我們都要非常的慎重以上建議好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員請問在場的委員還有沒有人有意見我們照順序應該先給中國國民黨的來 請徐委員"},{"start":3280.469,"end":3302.337,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛吳代理主委在講到就說有關我們的移轉投票大概吳代理主委已經有講出大概800個難處好像非常的困難不是我是說他把各種各樣8000多個那是他說有不同的選項但是我是覺得站在中選會的立場如果說移轉投票這麼困難的話那為什麼全國性公投你也可以處理呢"},{"start":3308.599,"end":3329.836,"text":"所以既然是全國性的公投可以處理有關總統副總統還有中央性的這個相關的選舉我覺得應該也都有辦法去克服所以如果針對這點的話我想很多事情其實當然需要我們全部人員大家共同來配合還有一些行政機關的調整但是我覺得也不能說因為難就不做"},{"start":3332.818,"end":3349.906,"text":"我有提案所以我剛剛講的就是總統副總統中央跟全國性公投這是我的提案所以我覺得既然全國性公投可以那總統副總統中央相關的也可以所以說其實這個部分的話我想不能因為說覺得困難而不做了而是應該要想辦法去突破困難"},{"start":3354.208,"end":3370.476,"text":"當然我想國民黨團其實一向就是秉持著當然要提升公民的參政跟保障人民投票的權利所以當然目前看起來我想還要繼續的協商才能取得一個共識我們也希望說當然相關的疑慮釐清之後我們再來推動 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇貞委員那個是不是請菜場的委員就是別人發言的時候還是尊重一下"},{"start":3384.729,"end":3390.792,"text":"別人發言的時候還是尊重一下啦這個是最起碼的規則嘛對不對那你如果要這樣子繼續干擾會議下去的話那這個協商要怎麼繼續進行呢各黨團的代表喔"},{"start":3412.947,"end":3426.497,"text":"都表示過意見了大家沒有辦法取得共識啊顯然協商啊 就不成立好 那我們的協商沒有辦法取得結論那後續就按照立法院相關的議事規則處理那這一場的協商到此為止 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}