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委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「藥事法部分條文修正草案」案。(十) 委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「藥事法部分條文修正草案」案。(十一) 委員林倩綺等18人擬具「藥事法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二) 委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「藥事法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查(一) 行政院函請審議「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(二) 委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條條文修正草案」案。(三) 委員劉建國等16人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(四) 委員王正旭等19人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(五) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條條文修正草案」案。(六) 委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(七) 委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。」(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(九) 委員林倩綺等18人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。(十) 委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「藥害救濟法第三條條文修正草案」案。【第一（十一）及二（九）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查；第一（十二）及二（十）案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】【綜合詢答】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:38:00 - 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包委員會出席委員人數已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1452.523,"end":1477.18,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十九次全體委員會議事錄時間一五年一月七日星期三九九點四分至十七點二十六分地點群星樓八零一會議室初期委員王玉明等十五人列席委員賴世寶等十七人列席官員衛生福利部政務次長呂倩德及各相關部會與會人員主席劉昭吉委員見過"},{"start":1479.995,"end":1507.331,"text":"報告事項 宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項 繼續或審查或繼續審查行政院函清審議身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案案等三十四案本日會議經委員范雲等三人說明提案子去另有委員盧先一等三人等分別提出修正動議共計十四案決議本日會議審查結果如下一 照行政院提案通過第六條條文"},{"start":1512.73,"end":1534.449,"text":"第一條修正通過如下第一條為維護身心障礙者與身心障礙者權利公約所示之各項權益保障其平等參與社會政治經濟文化等之機會促進其自立及發展特制定本法三步與增訂臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條之一四保留條文行政院提案第二條第七條及第十條及其對應條文"},{"start":1537.297,"end":1544.021,"text":"2.臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第3條委員林月琴等18人提案第3條及委員范雲等19人提案第3條3."},{"start":1544.021,"end":1551.766,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第4條委員林月琴等18人提案第4條及委員范雲等19人提案第4條4."},{"start":1551.766,"end":1556.009,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第5條及委員范雲等19人提案第5條2."},{"start":1556.009,"end":1562.973,"text":"行政院函清審身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等34案尚未審查完均另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1565.08,"end":1580.708,"text":"好 謝謝 那本日會議整為 第一審查藥事法部分條文修正草案等12案 第二審查藥害救濟法等3條及28條修28條條文修正草案等10案 那以上議程才綜合詢答"},{"start":1585.852,"end":1605.961,"text":"好 那這個我知道 OK 對不起先確認上市議事錄 各位委員有沒有其他意見各位委員有錯誤或疑慮之處好 沒有 那我們議事錄確認那現在這個先請陳昭志委員的程序完OK 好"},{"start":1610.764,"end":1624.397,"text":"謝謝主席排審今天藥事法這個重要的這個法案但是首先我要先肯定跟感謝食藥署這段時間持續密集的跟各界溝通的努力包括14天前1月15號在食藥署召開的這個會議當年也有很多藥界這個"},{"start":1625.458,"end":1654.457,"text":"恭喜會與會 提出不少具體跟務實的建議這點我們都看在眼裡 也給予肯定不過我必須提醒大家 藥品供應的韌性並不只是藥商能不能進口製造或調度藥品的問題還包含醫療院所的採購用藥政策高度受到健保給付制度的影響本案雖然是藥事法的修正但其中多項涉及藥品短缺供應調度限制措施與替代用藥的規定事實上已經連動到健保給付的規則"},{"start":1655.418,"end":1658.079,"text":"還有醫療體系的運作但是這是食藥署沒有辦法控制的一個範圍那這樣情況下如果健保署或醫事司未能同步參與討論委員會其實很難全面評估那本次修法對醫院端健保制度以及病人實際用藥可進行的影響這個部分都很難評估所以基於審查的完整性跟程序的正當性我想要請主席"},{"start":1680.163,"end":1702.011,"text":"在本案審查時應該要請健保署還有醫事室參與討論我們就藥品的供應的調度還有健保給付制度的制度之間的關聯向委員會做一個完整的說明謝謝主席好謝謝陳昭志委員的程序外言健保署有來然後還有醫事室也有來醫事室有來沒有簽到"},{"start":1708.171,"end":1733.696,"text":"OK好我們先來介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭之陳委員第二位是羅廷偉羅委員好那現在來對不起介紹與會的官員衛福部我們政務次長林靜儀林次長謝謝食藥署署長江志剛"},{"start":1736.172,"end":1753.045,"text":"中安健康保險署副署長張宇斌謝謝法規會參事陳信成法務部參事汪蘭君經濟部產業發展署副署長陳國軒產業技術室科長陳俊維醫師室醫師室有誰來"},{"start":1767.066,"end":1791.218,"text":"你沒有簽名他沒有做記者給他簽一下有有 意思是念紙的 念紙有到你現在是市長還是副市長今天過後就升了"},{"start":1798.868,"end":1819.691,"text":"好我們先請這個提案委員說明提案料子那為委員兩分鐘先請第一位羅廷偉委員來做提案說明他共有三個提案嗎就請好ok對對可以了可以可以可以讓你說到說到說到完好不好"},{"start":1828.254,"end":1854.741,"text":"好謝謝主席藥害救濟法第三條條文修正喔那鑒於為周延整個藥害的救濟範圍保障民眾用藥的一個權益並配合藥事法的修正喔使民眾用藥如發生藥害時能夠及時得到救濟所以這一次呢修正第二款的合法藥物的一個定義死因因具有藥品許可證藥品有不足供應情形呢因應"},{"start":1855.841,"end":1878.999,"text":"緊急的一個重大或者是公共衛生的一個情勢之專案核准的一個藥品適用要害救濟的一個制度緩止我們特拟據在這一次的第三條條文修正以強化整個要害救濟制度的一個周圍性完善民眾用藥後的一個保障維護公共衛生安全這個是要害救濟法第三條條文修正"},{"start":1879.699,"end":1889.669,"text":"另外我提出的藥事法第55條條文修正依據衛生福利部113年9月11日未售實質地1130023750號藥物樣品的正品管理辦法"},{"start":1898.578,"end":1919.74,"text":"第十七条核准专案制造的一个输入之药品药物的一个样品不得出售有关是否涉及出售之行为原则是其费用是否超出药品相关制造及供应成本的费用而定为使药品样品"},{"start":1920.26,"end":1943.056,"text":"不得出售相關的一個規定明確化鑰匙法第55條修法依據的是來自衛福部正式公文還由此對於這個母法及清楚的揭示藥品樣品不得出售之判斷的一個基準以強化規範的明確性避免實務的一個爭議"},{"start":1946.803,"end":1960.341,"text":"另外我對藥事法第27條第48條以及第96條這個之一條文的一個修正草案呢鑑於國內的藥品樣藥品若有無法持續的這個製造"},{"start":1962.564,"end":1979.79,"text":"輸入或者是不足供應之情形呢如未能在短時間取得適量的藥品恐使國人在生命身體健康有遭遇的一個傷害考量國內公共衛生需求及摻著食物的一個作業參考政府採購法定"},{"start":1982.511,"end":1996.518,"text":"105條的一個規定增訂為因應重大公共的一個衛生情勢之需要得申請專案核准製造或輸入不受要事法第39條規定的一個限制"},{"start":1997.378,"end":2022.64,"text":"另為加強監控必要的藥品供應之情形新增必要的一個藥品之許可證持有藥商應定期申報該類的藥品之製造輸入供應之情形所以在這一次藥事法第27條之二第48條之二以及第96條之一條文修正草案確保國內"},{"start":2024.581,"end":2041.558,"text":"藥品穩定的供應 維護民眾用藥安全跟公共衛生以上是我所做的一個提案說明 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員的提案說明接下來請王振旭委員來做提案說明有兩個案 請一併說明 謝謝"},{"start":2054.062,"end":2074.377,"text":"主席 各位同仁 各位與會的官員 大家早我就先進行相關的提案說明我跟多位委員及行政機關都有提出的這個藥事法跟藥害救濟法部分條文的修正草案最核心的目標基本上就是為了要建立一套更有韌性的藥品供應穩定監測機制"},{"start":2076.579,"end":2091.548,"text":"并且同时能够确保民众在特殊用药的情形之下有好的救济权益首先在药事法的强化监控方面自COVID-19的疫情以来全球药品的供应链不稳"},{"start":2092.566,"end":2107.637,"text":"藥方的問題時有所聞為了讓主管機關能夠及早的因應所以本次的修正裡面包括一要主動的申報要求持有必要藥品許可證的藥商應定期申報製造輸入"},{"start":2109.338,"end":2132.034,"text":"供應規劃及庫存情形不再只是等到這個短缺的時候才通報而是要從源頭就開始預警二彈性專案核准當藥品供應不足或發生重大影響公共衛生情勢例如有特定傳染性的疾病預防的時候主管機關可以專案核准製造或輸入並得視需求來"},{"start":2132.734,"end":2158.681,"text":"限制供应对象数量或范围以确保医疗资源的配置的公平性第三个就是法则的配套针对申报不实或者是未依限这个通报者增订相应的这个行政法则以落实药商的社会责任其次有关于药害救济法的同步配套为了要确保民众用药的权利我们必须补足救济制度的漏洞"},{"start":2159.261,"end":2177.387,"text":"那現行的法規只有只有領有許可證的藥物才適用救濟但未來要因應缺藥或者是緊急公共衛生事情而狀況核准的藥品其性質同樣是為了滿足普遍性的這個醫療的需求因此我們修正了合法藥物的定義將這些"},{"start":2178.347,"end":2189.337,"text":"專案核准的藥品納入保障範圍讓民眾即使在緊急狀況下使用這些藥物若不幸發生要害也能夠及時獲得救濟不因行政流程的簡化而讓權益縮水"},{"start":2191.041,"end":2191.141,"text":"好 謝謝好"},{"start":2216.354,"end":2236.276,"text":"那我這邊也來做這個提案說明和補充啦那我這邊提案是本市提出這個要釋法期藥肺休憩的修法目的就是要強化國內藥物供應的這個供應鏈的韌性那有鑒於過去疫情期間的發生後國內各項藥品供應不穩"},{"start":2237.836,"end":2261.049,"text":"甚至出現斷藥危機對於病患的權益造成莫大的影響所以也希望透過本次的修法希望能強化藥品的預警與應變的兩大機制第一是監測機制針對必要藥品要求藥商定期申報製造與庫存不能等到缺藥才發現第二彈性授權當發生供應不足或緊急空位事件時"},{"start":2262.33,"end":2281.531,"text":"授權中央可以專案核准製造與輸入不受一般查驗登記的限制確保藥品不斷貨那同時也希望透過修正這個藥害救濟法進行配套保障明確定義因應缺藥或緊急公衛需求而專案核准的藥品必須納入藥害救濟的試用範圍"},{"start":2282.492,"end":2301.18,"text":"不能因為是緊急專案就讓民眾承擔這個風險那期盼透過此次修法保障民眾用藥全力及安全避免過去缺藥危機再次發生那以上說明也敬請各位委員可以支持 謝謝我們現在請衛福部林次長進行病案說明"},{"start":2309.638,"end":2337.019,"text":"謝謝委員等一下我現在就直接口頭報告了嗎好謝謝主席各位委員女士先生大家好那今天逢大院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議審查行政院及大院各委員含情審議要事法部分條文修正草案及要害救濟法第3條及第28條條文修正草案提出專案報告本人呈要列席報告深感榮幸敬請各位委員不吝會與指導"},{"start":2338.42,"end":2356.053,"text":"近年來,藥品供應因為新型傳染病的威脅、地緣政治風險以及全球供應鏈中斷等因素面臨嚴峻的考驗,提升藥品供應韌性已經成為各國政府關注的焦點,更升級為確保國家安全的重要一環。"},{"start":2356.913,"end":2371.642,"text":"為此本部盤點國內現有法規的缺口包含一未有要求要商定期申報藥品之供應情形二對於非屬必要藥品之一般藥品許可證若遇短缺形式專案核准之法源不明"},{"start":2372.222,"end":2393.459,"text":"三目前专案核准药品不适用要害救济制度等顾卫求及时掌握国内必要药品供应情形进一步强化因药品短缺之相关措施以及参着公共卫生情势与食物作业情形并完备要害救济制度原理据药事法部分条文及要害救济法第三条第28条修正草案"},{"start":2394.119,"end":2421.018,"text":"两项修正草案的修法重点包含一规范持有必要药品许可证之药商应定期申报药品之制造输入及供应情形二 明定中央主管机关于知悉具有药品许可证之药品有供应不足之余时得专案核准该药品或其替代药品之制造或输入并得采取相关限制措施于必要时适度调控药品供应增进药品供应之横平性"},{"start":2421.758,"end":2445.968,"text":"三 前開專案核准藥物 藥品納入藥害救濟制度保障民眾用藥權益版本與各大院委員所提出修正版本方向一致感謝各位委員提出各版本及修法意見之參考期盼透過本次的修法進一步完善藥事法規強化對於藥品供應穩定與任性值因應並且確保民眾之權益"},{"start":2446.628,"end":2453.436,"text":"本部呈大院各委員之指導及監督在此敬致謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":2460.069,"end":2481.999,"text":"有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始做懸打 做以下宣告第一本會委員懸打時間六加五分鐘 列席委員四加一分鐘十點半截止花園登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定十點半休息十分鐘那本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝來受花園謝謝主席 有請次長請次長"},{"start":2494.074,"end":2514.155,"text":"市長今天排審的藥事法草案 攸關藥商是否因為會因為被過度加重責任而選擇退出市場那我要再次強調其實應該要先開公聽會因為聽取供應商的觀點否則只會衍生更多的問題因為這次修法草案不斷的強調藥品供應的韌性但我必須提醒市長"},{"start":2515.256,"end":2534.471,"text":"供應鏈穩定本身是一個高度複雜的一個系統問題他不是單一藥商或供應商可以完全掌握那事實上藥品受到很多國內外的因素影響例如原料要過度集中在一個特定一兩個國家那國際大藥廠事實上是根據他的價格他的市場大小來做一個排序"},{"start":2535.191,"end":2549.898,"text":"那台灣的市場小 要價差 要價低 大家都同意那健保給付會更動 醫院考慮要價差那這個優先順位本來就不高那在這樣的結構之下 本質修法主要是透過兩件事情一個是申報義務 一個是裁罰機制來處理缺藥問題那我感覺是過度將一個結構性的風險轉變為轉化成個別廠商的責任"},{"start":2560.823,"end":2579.745,"text":"那次長覺得完善的藥物供應只是只有供給方的責任嗎所以我下來要請教次長說您除了要求廠商要配合通報跟調度那衛福部本身在供應鏈的治理上在風險的分擔跟誘因的設計上有沒有提出對等的責任跟配套措施呢"},{"start":2580.705,"end":2596.29,"text":"謝謝委員指導其實謝謝委員也剛好提出了這個藥品任性六大行動我們這一次的一個新興的計劃因為其實就像剛剛委員提到的我們事實上希望能夠把我們的原料藥這一邊我們事實上國內是有原料要供應可是當然比例上面還不足而且國內市場比較小"},{"start":2596.77,"end":2622.366,"text":"所以我們目前正在這個藥品供應韌性計畫裡面我們也會再跟如果說之後當然這個計畫跟運算藥委員會通過要大院通過但是這裡面有一個很重要的事情就是也是因為這個原因所以我們在藥價還有藥價的這個獎勵還有藥品的獎勵的部分事實上從原料藥到我們國內的國產藥品我們這邊都會提供相關的支持跟誘因那剛剛其實委員提到了我也知道說過去健保的藥價是一個很大的關鍵"},{"start":2623.366,"end":2638.573,"text":"健保藥價這一邊事實上在過去幾年我們對於少數供應或者是說它是非常關鍵必要藥品的那個價格的部分委員之前也在我們的供你會所以它的價格就會有一個不但是不往下調還會往上調去確保它的供應韌性"},{"start":2640.758,"end":2651.783,"text":"謝謝市長 市長您說明這些基本上大概了解但是就是說現在的問題或是成效我想請對您剛剛有提到個簡報我想請問市長覺得其中我框起來這個字重大影響公衛情勢的定義您覺得夠明確嗎因為現在財量權跟解釋權都在衛福部手上那之前的健保資料管理條例因為我們有個霸王條款明明是可以退出退出權對於目的外使用那但是國家有權就把這個退出權把它阻缺掉"},{"start":2669.511,"end":2694.324,"text":"那當時我們討論很久因為當時用一個非常含糊的字眼叫做國家安全那後來改變了要更具體說法那就是因為我現在也覺得重大影響公衛這個說法太模糊了那我們來回顧一下永豐生理實驗水這件事廠商做不出合格的產品可是這個當中因為他沒有被關倉他繼續通報就像是要申報供應量充足那整個市場佔率也都佔得非常高"},{"start":2695.184,"end":2708.955,"text":"當廠商被勒令停業的時候 完蛋了所以臺灣的休旅鹹水就缺貨了那後來衛福部花了更多錢去國外買沒有許可證更貴的藥品來替代所以請問現在衛福部草案中的重大影響是包括這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":2710.456,"end":2731.332,"text":"報告委員其實我們當然希望如果以永豐這個案子盡量希望不要走到那一步所以其實剛剛提到了永豐因為他佔的市佔當時市佔70%所以我們現在對於各藥廠還有相關的藥品供應希望能夠讓整個供應鏈能夠是不要集中在同一間廠商在立法的時候你說重大影響供應鏈這個部分還因為這是個形容我們這個部分其實還參考WHO這個部分參考WHO國際關注突發公關"},{"start":2734.634,"end":2746.144,"text":"衛生事件的定義我剛剛特別有提到健保資料管理條例那時候也做了很好的一個修正就請次長再思考一下那這次修正常規就有第96條第一項規定如果要講申報或申報內容不實就可能被處以罰還甚至連續罰要一直改善為止那這個是賦予主管機關相當大的裁量權那我請教江署長"},{"start":2757.074,"end":2786.067,"text":"申報的內容包含什麼廠商是否有申訴跟說明的機會我先跟你說一下當時情形可否針對需求量暴增不可抗力的這種理由提出說明可能暴增他就就功量不足當年有個藥AvendiaAvendia是一個當時是很好的降血糖藥那因為他突然下肢是因為心臟血管的一個風險下肢結果造成另外一個藥叫Genevia現在都還在市面上那大增用量大增那當然會產生一些供應的問題"},{"start":2786.807,"end":2789.509,"text":"還有還有乳癌標靶藥因為健保署的這個這個財務受限他就突然間以某價錢以上我才 以下我才買結果整個這個藥廠大變動這個生物用藥跟原廠大變動就是換了廠牌那這個供應量整個就發生一個很大的變化"},{"start":2805.521,"end":2830.838,"text":"那再來有一個肺癌藥他通過的時候大概預期兩億啊我會再提到他後來爆充到二三十億那這種量我想請問這次修法是否有獨立審查跟專業評估機制而不是單獨由這個主管機關來認定因為請記得藥品的採購權跟處方權都不在你這次修法裡面的要究責的對象但是你究責的是廠商"},{"start":2832.054,"end":2852.045,"text":"包委員就這一個部分因為剛才提到幾個例子不管Avendia、Tagris等等的藥物的使用的確它是沒辦法究責的因為特定的政策改變所以在這個部分我們一定一定在這次通過之後在後續的執法規裡面會做進一步的討論我是希望先能看到有一個這樣的機制"},{"start":2853.106,"end":2878.855,"text":"是的 我們會進一步研議我剛剛為什麼說程序發言 次長你也知道因為有太多因素不是他能 如果他百分百要被究責那我們都沒有話說那請問次長在健保的制度下什麼情況算是申報內容不實因為在健保署本身也有加量協議那個PVA或是幾副協議就MBA那也做了醫療評估啊 可是估錯了有多少那其中我要講非科學因素有多少"},{"start":2879.835,"end":2891.763,"text":"剛剛我們提到那個TAGRESO他本來是約束2億結果後來衝到快40億那這個快速 為什麼他小效非常好他快速的擴張那這個是算內容不實還是誰的錯我是說當你覺得內容不實的時候那我們請你氣象報告"},{"start":2895.866,"end":2906.098,"text":"我們也給他很好的設備啊 他就很正確嗎GDP的足跡總數每年成長率一年調了十幾次他也是錯誤啊 一直調啊那為什麼都沒有懲罰機制唯獨這個藥品的用量一不對 一跟預期不合那就要懲罰 沒有啦 沒有那麼"},{"start":2911.183,"end":2937.241,"text":"不过先跟委员报告几个事情像之前我们生理神水那个时候很多医院跟原来的药厂都有相关的契约相关的合约当时为了要能够大家平衡能够来供应一起来让台湾的医疗服务能够运作其实当时我们食药署也协助像各医疗院所还有各医疗院所出具一个指示是说请他们在这段时间不能就责于原来厂商的合约谢谢市长"},{"start":2937.381,"end":2960.462,"text":"因為這個部分是當然您有做這樣努力我們謝謝你但是這件事既然要修法我覺得還是要有一個比較正確的因為如果藥廠依照被限收的幾付條件下他去申報去申報他的量能量能如實申報但是後來因為幾付擴增了臨床處方行為改變或是大家都會被類視頻連動我剛剛也舉了一個例子類視頻改變的狀況就改變或自費病人增加那個"},{"start":2961.283,"end":2983.681,"text":"就是今天是健保署在這邊以前健保署是不管自費藥但是部長次長您是必須連自費藥的因素一起考慮那就出現很多的落差那這樣會不會被認為是申報不實如果連健保署都自己都無法估準用量那在高度不確定的制度環境下那廠商為什麼要被糾正為什麼要承擔本來他不該全部承擔的這個"},{"start":2984.261,"end":3001.981,"text":"當然跟我們報告這次我們其實整個修法是希望能夠協助廠商在相關法源的部分更明確廠商其實才比較不會真的跟我們之間有一些衝突或者是矛盾那再補充一下就是說有些藥品在供應像您剛剛提到因為某一個規矩的變動可能會某一個藥品突然間大量處理這個部分或是某一個變動讓藥品它的連動"},{"start":3003.883,"end":3017.055,"text":"其實我們現在在相關的藥品我們定期食藥署跟健保署的會議裡面我們會跟相關的學協會討論說某一個藥品因為廠商已經給我們警訊了他可能會短期之內供應會有短缺的情況之下是不是有哪些影響連動到其他藥品我個人沒有反對說"},{"start":3019.897,"end":3043.307,"text":"藥廠通報責任 但憑幸好論市長你現在覺得健保市場對藥品是個好環境嗎西藥代理商公會 民意理事長朱滿講說目前是臺灣藥界最有寫最艱困的時代因為原廠要從許可證和健保合價到醫院採購每一段都用年來算了用年的時間來算然後造成代理商必須付出很高昂的權益金甚至消耗過期的這個藥品另外一方面健保合價制度"},{"start":3043.967,"end":3070.605,"text":"嚴重的壓縮藥品的利潤讓藥界叫苦連天因為脊腹價格低 條件嚴苛我想這個連醫界都在反映那又有巨額的藥價差如果脊腹制度沒有任何的精進又不斷的加重廠商的負擔難道不會影響跨國藥廠比如說台灣市場醫院甚至連本國連本國的廠商都不願繼續做下去嗎當時的生理實驗其實某個程度也反映了這件事情生理實驗實驗這件事情是廠商他們就是規避他們應該有的品管不是價格的問題"},{"start":3072.998,"end":3086.466,"text":"市長你應該知道真相不是如此委員真的我們去調查過那個廠商而且我們在那個生理鹹水是有請各廠商提出來我們在他出事之前我們才調過價格到現在食藥署還沒有接受其實健保署也有高度責任那我就請教啦監察院2023年調查報告指出食藥署欠缺主動查核的管理機制在接貨藥品短缺通報後這是監察院喔無論是否屬於必要藥品當然必要很難認定很難認定各說各話"},{"start":3099.773,"end":3128.881,"text":"事實上多你們緊確瞭解供應狀況啦 臨床必要性替代藥品的取代評估然後再請他說你以後要加強這個輸入或是生產 或是啟動專案進口因應但是食藥署雖然過去你剛剛有提到會協調保留一定的數量供應在譬如說跟基層的地方 社區藥局等但是因為藥商大部分與大型醫院簽約嘛但簽約就會有處罰嘛那造成缺藥的時候當然首先是供應那邊那雖然你做協調但是這只是沒有具有法律效力哦這個只是"},{"start":3129.281,"end":3157.056,"text":"是 所以這次我們才會在修法的條文裡面希望在這種緊急狀況之下我們能夠有一定程度的供應的法源調度法源回來 常常會出現說西藥署評估是沒有缺藥但是民眾事實上是領不到藥的你在27條第三語規定主管機關的限制藥品供應的範圍期間數量對象與方式或採取其他管制措施可是西藥署可以不管廠商跟醫院的契約統一去做分配請問署長 那違約的處罰要廠商吞下來就是說等於說"},{"start":3158.296,"end":3176.491,"text":"我想你們都明白醫院除了違約金他還有其他的處罰方式包括整體藥品該搶的處方量或是直接停掉停用藥品次長您去年去的去年去年在新聞中我說中部某家醫院對不對他因為這個利潤開藥就是以利潤來取向所以我是說藥廠他配合國家政策但是你如果去保障他們願意配合國家政策的權益"},{"start":3185.678,"end":3190.461,"text":"还有在非必要的药品的管理上是不是你还是只是扮演协调的角色"},{"start":3217.059,"end":3238.177,"text":"那您刚刚提到的医院这边其实它有一件很重要的事情像去年生理咸水的案前年生理咸水的案子的时候原来医院它自己的供应韧性它自己储备的量能足够的情况之下它暂时比较没有短缺的压力所以那次很多的医院也发现它如果没有跟厂商签约它如果没有具备自己本身的药品供应韧性它自己都只是在那个最少的量然后只要明天到了才需要叫货"},{"start":3238.217,"end":3263.887,"text":"我們就希望醫院不要造成這樣的事情明明就是剩下一個藥品然後這個品質不良然後最後剩下全台灣就仰賴他他當時給付25塊但是他賣給醫院18塊所以這一次我們所以18塊錢那個藥價差要給醫院嘛委員這一次我們就調度就必要藥品的那個藥價我們會另外做一些調整然後再來在這一次其實處理裡面剛剛其實委員第一張判斷片我非常感謝委員因為我們在新興的這個藥品任性計畫裡面就是希望能夠把整個"},{"start":3264.827,"end":3292.766,"text":"做全面性的調整讓藥商這邊不要只是用低價來做處理我們對於必要藥品 重要藥品 關鍵藥品我們尤其是國產我們希望能夠全力來協助市長我想謝謝你行政機關我希望在處理任何法案的時候就知道所有利害關係人就是不是說單純的簡單把究責放在廠商那就結束了因為剛剛我已經用盡努力說明為什麼不是單一因素我們非常感謝廠商過去在法院都還沒有非常的完整的情況之下協助我們去完成我們的供應人心謝謝市長 署長 謝謝主席"},{"start":3297.771,"end":3308.204,"text":"接下來請陳清威委員來做詢談好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員還有各位官員 現在請次長來 次長"},{"start":3316.844,"end":3343.821,"text":"之前部長有講到說因為2025年台灣即將邁向超高齡的計劃所以不管是透過三高防治888計劃大災計劃等等這些您都非常熟悉了但最近他有提出一個比較特別的就是其他國家可能也有在執行的叫做健康幣那這些都是希望民眾可以及早可以介入並且養成自己維持健康的習慣預防剩餘治療所以本期今天第一個題目是想跟您討論健康幣"},{"start":3344.822,"end":3370.462,"text":"好 之前衛福部規 規劃啦他是說期望透過幾個方式比如說接種疫苗他就可以得到健康幣或是他有準時的參加癌症篩檢以及他去聽健康相關的講座或是透過智慧型的產品去監控他的運動的狀況有點像是破任務這樣子的方式來達成接下來呢他就可以去換成商品或是健康食品等等的"},{"start":3371.002,"end":3398.503,"text":"我是想要初步跟次長請教你們未來是想要採用比如手機的APP或者是你們希望怎麼樣把它跟這些運動的程式去做連結其實簡單來講事實上我謝謝委員關注這一點因為過去我們在健保制度我想委員很清楚過去在健保制度裡面你做健康促進並沒有辦法在整個制度裡面得到支持反而是他的醫療耗用越多"},{"start":3398.763,"end":3416.665,"text":"对他来讲缴一样的钱所以我们很清楚说我们过去在健保制度里面并没有去做所谓相关健康行为促进的鼓励那事实上很多县市的县市卫生局已经开始做类似的事情比方说你有打疫苗像我们之前在COVID的时候也是一样我们有一些行为希望大家能够来做健康促进所以健康币的精神就是希望"},{"start":3417.125,"end":3436.839,"text":"民眾的健康行為健康促進的行為能夠得到一些正面的鼓勵比方說比較更有誘因像這樣子的做法至於說到時候我們現在在規劃裡面還是初步規劃這個規劃到時候我們當然現在有一個我們最普遍用的最好在COVID的時候就是我們手上健保APP健保APP可能是一個我們到時候會應該會用APP"},{"start":3438.24,"end":3459.182,"text":"目前還在規劃中但是實際上你如何要跟這個運動連結你們現在只有這個想法可是要怎麼去落實這些細節還在規劃我們現在在因為這裡面有牽涉到不同的面向那有健康行為促進有的時候是在我們國健署有的健康行為促進又在長照也有的可能在運動部這一邊所以我們到時候會做比較廣泛的一個討論"},{"start":3459.963,"end":3480.829,"text":"了解那這邊呢我再舉一個新加坡的例子可能次長也已經有研究了新加坡他是用一個Healthy 365 APP那就可以累積HealthPoint那值得讓我們參考跟借鏡的是他們除了可以去換一些voucher就是電子的購物券或者是你如果完成整體的健康諮詢你可以連結到保險"},{"start":3481.929,"end":3502.282,"text":"保費的折扣那他的優點是說高度數位化他跟商家合作那點數一定用得完而且他範圍很廣因為你剛除了提到運動他裡面連飲食或是睡眠的習慣他都把他串連在裡面甚至他把保險都拿南瓜進來但是這個就會是一個大工程等等我會再跟你討論好我們"},{"start":3503.983,"end":3521.635,"text":"這樣子如果去執行的話我去看了一些其他國家的做法他們最後會遇到兩個問題第一個是數位落差這個您應該也理解這個數位落差很大尤其我們超高齡我們要如何讓這一個需要非常需要健康租金的人口都可以不要有這個數位落差第二個就是"},{"start":3523.056,"end":3535.695,"text":"這個其實在美國的伊利諾大學有做過類似的計畫他當時有一萬兩千名員工然後研究的時間大概是兩年結果就他們整個去回顧回顧他們健康溯源計畫的影響發現"},{"start":3537.518,"end":3559.293,"text":"最後是自願參加的人有了正面選擇也就是說最終他們有參加這個計畫的人本來回溯以後發現他們原本就是醫療費用比較低或者他們從事健康行為的比例比較高的人也就是較為健康或是具有健康意識的人才會參加這樣子的活動這是他們後來最後的數據顯示的結果"},{"start":3560.894,"end":3583.403,"text":"所以這邊我有幾個建議然後也想知道您的看法第一個就是你有沒有辦法跟速發部我知道財政部可能不一定這個保險業你有辦法去介入但是首先你可能很需要速發部的幫忙那再來如果你可以學習新加坡把保險納入Maybe也是一個很好的方法但他可能就會拖長這個健康幣執行的時間"},{"start":3585.385,"end":3601.848,"text":"第二個就是針對剛有講到這些人本來就是會比較注重健康針對高風險族群比如他本來就有三高或者是他本來就在BMI比較高的人是不是針對這些族群你去擴大他的誘因你的健康幣可能他有分成"},{"start":3602.768,"end":3627.717,"text":"1比1或者是1比1.2或是1比1.5 1比1.8讓他從非常不健康的狀況邁向健康然後再去下降他的幅度然後進一步去鼓勵他的誘因所以大概是這兩點不知道一個月內可不可以給我報告兩點就第一個是你有沒有你覺得你有沒有辦法跟速發部或是保險相關的產業去做結合那第二個就是針對"},{"start":3629.918,"end":3644.949,"text":"這個其他國家已經研究出來後來居然是比較健康的參加沒有幫助到那些真的很需要幫助的人這點你要如何去做差別提高他的誘因我想委員我們可能只能先給委員初步我們現在的規劃因為就像委員說這是一個蠻龐大的規劃但是其實也希望能夠帶領一個"},{"start":3648.571,"end":3665.115,"text":"新的思考就是說健康促進是一個很重要的事情大家不要只是從疾病跟健保端我們要從健康促進端更前端來做預防因為未來高齡化人口那剛剛所提到的其實委員說的比較複雜的慢性病這一塊事實上在888計畫裡面可能會比較有幫助"},{"start":3665.695,"end":3690.861,"text":"但是當然我們也慢慢希望說因為像委員也知道現在有很多他是即時行的回饋看到他的慢性病控制這個對於很多慢性病病人來講他更有資料跟資訊能夠清楚知道原來他怎麼樣的飲食能夠對於他的某些慢性病控制更直接這個部分我們之後可能慢慢會再做一些規劃好那簡單來講這個部分就是希望說合併跟我們其他的慢性病控制的這個計劃專案有些從健保處理有些從健康"},{"start":3690.981,"end":3720.128,"text":"我知道但是現在慢性病很明顯的嘛他並沒有辦法從習慣得到誘因啊因為你的健康病的意思就是說我不管是控制我的飲食控制我的睡眠或者說規律運動你想結合這些運動程式嘛智慧智慧型的用品其實還包含比方說像疫苗接種現在我想我也知道說很多疫苗接種事實上是慢性病的病人最需要對所以我的意思是說既然你要做了你是不是就把它考量進來是謝謝委員我們會做一些相關的考量那就一個月跟你要這個"},{"start":3721.028,"end":3749.853,"text":"我们初步计划给委员好不好但是细节可能还没有办法那么多那下一个议题也是接到一些基层的反应就去年9月因为我知道您对这个议题着墨甚多去年9月我们有一个任性台湾民主永续这个论坛所以我们就针对很多医院的地下空间因为现在地下空间大家都知道不是拿来停车就是当美食街那之后有没有办法变成开刀房加护病房产房甚至是透析等等的"},{"start":3750.933,"end":3777.173,"text":"做這樣子的因應狀況那當時呢您應該有參加這個研討會他就有提到說替代醫療的地下空間分成三個階段裡面包括準備就緒還有啟動就緒是48小時要完成替代空間的建置而啟動呢是準備運作到至少72小時比如說維持他自己的電力水電藥品等等的這個對現階段我們所有的醫療院所都是一個很大的考驗"},{"start":3777.913,"end":3796.67,"text":"那這個是基層啦有一些醫護人員其實大家對這件事情是有興趣的可是呢裡面有很多很陌生的概念最後呢在這個研討會只有很少數的人知道並且可能是管理階層可是如果你要去落實這一切比如說前進外科小組啦比如說備援手術室團隊啊比如說危機下的醫療準則"},{"start":3800.453,"end":3821.156,"text":"這些制度規則其實真的要執行的是低先的人但是在參加這個研討會的人是高層的人那你如何因為很多人是想做的很多人想參與的你如何在可能你有一個保密的機制還有在它實際可以落實你要如何達到這個平衡"},{"start":3821.876,"end":3844.521,"text":"跟鮑委員其實這個案子目前我們主要是針對重度急救責任醫院因為COVID那一次大家也會發現說有的時候如果你一旦有發生感染或特殊狀況比方說它有一些公共安全的一些問題也會導致我們的醫療量能它受到很大的影響所以像這個部分我們事實上就是希望說至少先由重度急救責任醫院能夠有這樣的機制"},{"start":3845.461,"end":3873.833,"text":"那也先跟委員補充重度急救責任醫院他要能夠自己在水電能夠供應72小時以上這個是我們本來對於重度急救責任醫院就有的要求也就是他在他原來的醫療服務提供的韌性裡面就有這樣的要求那我們在這兩年當然有一些相關的訓練也像您所說的我們是跟醫院的主管因為主管要先知道他要怎麼樣去調度相關的資源那今年度我們會跟包含地方的衛生局以及相關我們剛剛講重度急救責任醫院的這些醫院"},{"start":3874.813,"end":3891.484,"text":"本身負責這些主管再有一個比較詳盡的一個說明那這樣子的話他們自己在內部其實就像我想委員之前如果在機構待過事實上很多的醫院他都會要有比方說防火火災的時候要什麼班大家要怎麼樣去運作誰是指揮中心誰是來調度大概就是像這樣子一個方式我中央"},{"start":3892.404,"end":3908.609,"text":"我這邊舉一個應該是全世界最高規格的醫院它是以色列的蘭巴姆醫學中心它本來地下室是可以停1500台車子的停車場可是它會在6到8小時之內就可以把它改裝成2000床的地下堡壘的"},{"start":3909.629,"end":3923.425,"text":"裡面包括我剛提到的這些東西並且自給自足數日獨立的水電氧氣失誤氣密就是假定他們是長時間的受到火箭的攻擊等等的所以我在這邊是具體給你一個建議說因為你今年還要去宣導嘛"},{"start":3924.246,"end":3944.804,"text":"那你今天在宣導的時候我們不要只停留在鼓勵跟方向這個層次可能我們去盤點或者是改造你必須要把剛剛我講的這些指標就是幾個小時之內或者他可以支撐幾天把它連結在裡面那這邊呢就是我們上禮拜有發函因為石部長有講到說未來新設醫院"},{"start":3945.885,"end":3961.38,"text":"按照一定的比例10%會保留作為急救或者是暫時醫療用途等等的但目前這些協助跟支持僅限於公立醫院有很多私立醫院他其實是表達說他有意願就這樣做並且他自主有些人現在已經在這樣做"},{"start":3962.361,"end":3976.177,"text":"所以我希望這個就是另外一個可以希望一個月或者是一週內可以給我們公文回覆就是說你可不可以極大化我們的醫療韌性就是說你大概多久的時間以內你剛剛講到嘛 地方衛生局嘛"},{"start":3977.538,"end":3995.852,"text":"多久時間以內你可以極大化醫療韌性我的意思是說讓更多人去參與因為你現在你剛有提到是高層第二個就是是不是可以把這些支持擴張到公立跟私立醫院一起委員是不是容我們一個月給您回覆好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝次長接下來請王育民委員來做詢問"},{"start":4009.05,"end":4011.253,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請次長還有署長委員好"},{"start":4019.486,"end":4039.435,"text":"我首先要請問重大食安問題就是這個感染破油冒充頂級感染油的事件這個從他進口到現在大概長達700天這麼長的時間那他這樣的一個就是感染破油他包括他有添加這個化學性的物質去萃取"},{"start":4040.655,"end":4068.39,"text":"那第一個我就要問的是到目前為止它從2024年進口出產到現在已經賣出多少數量有高達多少謝謝委員的提問針對這個橄欖破油其實橄欖油其實它的命名裡面就有一項是橄欖破油所以橄欖破油其實是本來就可以上市本來可以採用的我現在問的是數量破油變成是高級的混沖所以它接的"},{"start":4069.13,"end":4097.238,"text":"跟委員交了報告因為他接了這件事情之後呢他是核的但是他接了同業綠素進去去混沖從高級的他就是所謂的假冒假冒參委這個是屬於詐欺的行為數量有多少這是他 確確的數量呢容我回去你們還沒有掌握這已經好幾天了耶對這速度太慢了第一個我要講的是為什麼我們主管機關這麼晚才知道而這一個不是油食藥署集合的吧是減掉吧有人通報減掉是不是"},{"start":4097.278,"end":4123.296,"text":"我們主動在12月份的時候通調到檢調是你們通報的那你們是因為查核還是有人舉報是我們去查核的過程當中就在市場查核的時候覺得是不對的一個狀況之下然後呢跟檢調就合作所以12月份1月總共有三次的通報我們其實在部裡面都有掌握那過去你們針對這個橄欖油的查核每一年都有做嗎是的我們每一年都有做橄欖油的查核的事項"},{"start":4124.15,"end":4152.012,"text":"所以到去年才發現對 因為但是它是2024年就開始2024年的查核沒有發現對 跟委員報告因為查核的時候其實不會是每一項它是抽查的但是抽查的過程中如果我們發現過去因為同業率數之事情已經很穩定下來之後它查核的密度跟強度我們是持續在做但是它的強度跟密度就會減少但是抽查中了之後我們覺得不對立即跟檢調能夠去共同的所以在這個過程中"},{"start":4152.432,"end":4177.601,"text":"但是查核到之後 你針對市售的感染油你要不要再加強你的頻率跟密度報告委員 這是必要的我們針對這個重新有這樣子的不肖的廠商做這件事情我們會努力的因為其實國際上過去這個感染油被混沖假冒的這個就是在食安事件裡面很常見的那過去台灣曾經爆發過因為強力的稽查後來人不敢現在感覺是你們鬆了之後"},{"start":4178.241,"end":4194.721,"text":"业者又开始蠢蠢欲动所以我要求你们应该要在这个部分再去查核另外一个我要问的是他进口的这么大量的这一些感染油泼你们有去登录有去追踪他的流向吗报告委员在我们追踪追溯的流向里面这都是清清楚楚的"},{"start":4195.202,"end":4214.681,"text":"都有都有因為在整個的追蹤在邊境進來之後我們的查了系統所以他是有登錄在你的追溯系統我們的追蹤系統他才進貨都很清楚他的數量都有在裡面對 都很清楚只是他現在做的事情是把同月利數去做另外一個販賣的點那原則上這個油是可以的只是同月利數那他可以做什麼油"},{"start":4215.362,"end":4239.274,"text":"就是這些感染破油可以做什麼它也是我們一般的油品是可以符合我們現在上市的規定但是它必須要正向揭露來自於感染破油而不是所謂的粗榨感染油這個就是我要講的你們如果從源頭管理當它大量進口的時候你們應該要加做一個動作這些大量進口破油的它有可能就會混沖成高基油所以像針對這樣的業者其實你們應該是要有查核的機制才對"},{"start":4240.054,"end":4258,"text":"就是監督流向我覺得這個才是從源頭的管理我希望未來這一個這塊你們應該要去強化好不好謝謝委員指導我們一定好那接下來問今天的有關於這個藥品的相關的草案的修正我請教一下市長因為現在修法裡面特意去強調定期申報但是我們看到過去缺藥的問題其實很多他是退出市場"},{"start":4264.702,"end":4292.383,"text":"那所以你的這個定期申報可以解決退出市場的這樣的一個問題嗎報告委員其實像如果是因為退出市場它有很多不同的原因啦那其中有一些部分它是這種像剛剛委員這邊提到的有些是它廠商自己的機制的問題那那個如果是全球的那個廠商的問題那這一類的你要怎麼去處理因為很多這種它都是已經是我們本身有學名藥了所以我們本身有學名藥的時候我們事實上是希望"},{"start":4292.623,"end":4306.905,"text":"不会有断货缺货的问题我们当然是你都是可以接轨的每一样都可以我们事实上在每一个药品事实上请我们现在这个这次修法里面请厂商要能够提早让我们知道就是说我们能够尽早的来确定那像这种要退出市场的要多早让你知道"},{"start":4309.025,"end":4334.814,"text":"報告委員我們對於所謂重大緊急的一些藥品的部分我們是希望能夠定期嘛那我們定期過去呢如果有這種情形提早半年告訴我但是如果不可規則我們是一個月嘛但對於整體藥物我們最近希望在藥物任性計畫裡面做所謂Peer CenterPharmaceutical IntelligenceLogistics and Storage Center希望能夠進一步的能夠監控調度我們希望在這樣子的頻率"},{"start":4335.974,"end":4357.297,"text":"也跟工協會裡面做了很多的溝通如果最準應該每一天都有動態的我覺得是不可能的但是如果能夠及時的讓我們在所以在不同的藥物底下我們可能還需要去做細分這容我們在我們的特別病的辦法裡面去做一些些溝通完確立我覺得有些非常關鍵性的藥物要非常密集的"},{"start":4357.978,"end":4378.067,"text":"相對的如果他不是那麼關鍵性的藥物等等他可以拉開時間所以我們最長的我們本來預計是差不多半年短期的話大概是一到三個月但是這些事情呢一定要整體我們藥物評估之後跟整個業者因為供應跟醫院跟健保跟整個醫療系統裡面要共同溝通所以我們目前呢沒有確確確定說"},{"start":4379.768,"end":4394.139,"text":"一體試用全部都是幾個什麼時間但是因為不同藥物跟不同需求之下我相信它對於時間上的要求也業者其實藥商們他們都非常非常支持這一件事情我要告訴你就是說它沒有那麼簡單透過簡單的修法你說定期申報你所有的問題都迎刃而解就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":4398.943,"end":4421.178,"text":"所以你未來的你怎麼樣去強化那個密度跟溝通跟掌握去理解然後這個動態他必須是個動態式的管理所以接著我就要問說未來衛福部你們有一個藥物韌性推動專案辦公室這個專案辦公室跟剛剛署長你講的你未來要更積極的去掌握這一些藥品的這個動態跟動向有什麼樣直接的關係嗎"},{"start":4422.559,"end":4439.547,"text":"因為它的成立會去強化解決這個藥品缺藥的問題嗎因為既然是談到藥物韌性我覺得應該是要有一些關聯吧有還是沒有跟委員報告其實我們去增加藥品供應韌性當然剛剛委員所提到避免缺藥這是其中的一環"},{"start":4440.327,"end":4456.096,"text":"那更重要的一件事情是我們會發現說有一些藥品它幾乎長期都依賴進口那我們自己國內事實上國內的藥廠需要我們用國家的力量來支持國內的藥廠能夠自給自足來提供我們國內的藥品需求所以也包含在我們這次的藥物潤性這個計畫裡面"},{"start":4457.937,"end":4476.616,"text":"鼓勵跟支持我們自己國產的藥廠增加我們國內的供應的韌性既然如果要成立藥物韌性推動專案辦公室我又有一種既視感看到少子女化對策辦公室因為這個辦公室看起來我要今天要問兩位的就是"},{"start":4477.196,"end":4498.54,"text":"有沒有聘專人在這一個辦公室我們如果講一個office一個辦公室就是要有專人坐鎮在這邊每天辦公在處理這樣的一個事情但目前為止我看到你們的架構裡面你比較像是委員會你不是個辦公室我沒有看到你們哪邊設專人還是你有設專人設多少人是不是可以回答"},{"start":4501.709,"end":4520.881,"text":"跟委員做進一步說明的確在藥物韌性推動的專案辦公室我們目前在人力上面以及整個架構部分我們持續在研擬的當中我們希望的是他能夠落地有沒有專人的設置我們是希望有專人設計整體的內涵的部分我們其實持續跟"},{"start":4521.941,"end":4537.058,"text":"衛福部我們部長這邊做一些構思所以還沒有定案還沒有完全的定案因為這整體的來講現在在食藥署面整個我們的藥品組的協作底下因為我看到的你們現行的架構你們是社委委員會是的"},{"start":4538.519,"end":4559.813,"text":"所以委員會就是委員會辦公室是辦公室如果你是委員會就不能叫辦公室因為過去少子化對策辦公室已經被委員問出來說根本就是空的也沒有專人就打個倒倒就是不同的部會然後誇一個名稱叫辦公室這樣不行所以我今天要問你就是說你這到底是辦公室還是委員會看起來很像委員會不是辦公室"},{"start":4560.453,"end":4585.016,"text":"我们其实是目前是委员会的规划所以在未来的运作的部分如果有需要有专人等等的我们想持续的研议目前的确是在委员会的一个架构底下来运行那就不能叫做办公室我希望大家是很务实的处理事情你框一个办公室会让大家认为说你是拼了专人然后要全力来推动药物任性这项计划这才叫专办"},{"start":4585.877,"end":4602.189,"text":"如果沒有專人這不叫專辦你充其量就是有個定期的委員會來處理相關的事務我覺得不要誤導好不好那這件事情我們的藥物韌性我們的這個缺藥的問題我們希望這個你們編了很龐大的預算這個是要好好做的"},{"start":4602.429,"end":4629.729,"text":"跟委员报告这里面其实蛮大的一个部分在经济部就是说我们这边盘出来有需要支持或者是要特别来培植的相关的药品的产业那这个部分我们要麻烦经济部来给我们协助好那最后问一个问题春节快到了就是说春节期间最近这个流感其实有上升的一个情况那过去都是跑大医院你们今年有特别一个计划就是要诊所它的这个开诊率那过去只有一成你们现在希望提高到几成"},{"start":4630.129,"end":4647.187,"text":"我們希望能夠盡量提升目標呢目標其實跟委員報告就是說診所這邊因為放下放得很久我們這次的計畫裡面希望能夠讓診所至少包含診所這邊還有相關的醫院用UCC的方式來開診至於目標的話我們當然希望能夠比過去再更高一點"},{"start":4647.768,"end":4668.031,"text":"多少兩成三成正在努力希望你們沒有設目標那另外一個你們要注意那個藥品是不是跟得上包括我藥品這個部分我們已經全部盤點過了對那藥局會開嗎診所開藥局有跟著開嗎藥局這邊很多連鎖藥局他們會開啦會開所以現在診所比較缺那診所比較缺因為畢竟診所很多他可能就是一位醫師跟幾位護理師"},{"start":4668.792,"end":4683.924,"text":"我希望你們這一塊因為三四部長沒有來他就說去開跟院長報告這樣一個專案我希望你們是不是只有開會這個真的是要嚴正以待因為我有看到最近真的這個感冒的人數其實在上升"},{"start":4684.284,"end":4711.291,"text":"所以也希望就是說也謝謝委員這邊的垂詢我們就希望現在也正在跟民眾宣導就是很多慢性病他可以提早領藥了他的慢簽再來的話很多慢性病的病人因為現在距離農曆過年還有一年的期間一個月的期間沒有一年一個月的期間這段時間民眾他對於他慢性病他應該要就醫及早就醫的部分能夠盡量先來做處理我希望你們持續加強宣導不要讓大家看到春節急診大用賽的這樣情況再現希望大家都能夠開開心心過年避免到急診去好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4715.612,"end":4729.801,"text":"好 接下來請邱正勳委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席 我們有請次長好 請次長"},{"start":4736.058,"end":4750.844,"text":"委員長 次長好我們今天審查這個藥事法跟藥害救濟法那我看了一下行政院版本那當然這個提案的背景是因為新型傳染病的威脅 地緣政治的風險提升藥品的這個供應"},{"start":4752.396,"end":4768.051,"text":"韌性還有全球這個供應鏈中斷等等我想請問這個次長這些問題是現在才發生嗎當然這些問題長期都有但是因為這幾年包含COVID全球流行以及相關各國的供應鏈的部分事實上影響是真的越來越明顯"},{"start":4768.923,"end":4783.951,"text":"對啦 這些都是原因然後呢 112年有上百萬的高血脂這個患者使用的利普陀降膽固醇的這個藥缺貨那這個被藥師說是30年來最嚴重的那113年"},{"start":4787.433,"end":4812.071,"text":"5月我們的書藝也缺貨的非常嚴重那這麼久了我想這個過程已經好幾年了那部長 次長你會不會覺得這個過程會不會拖太久到現在才 其實我們這一次的藥事法以我自己個人來講這一次藥事法修法就是去年5月我們在書藝的這個遇到的這個挑戰前年我們遇到這個挑戰的時候我們就開始來做這個修法的草案你們準備了多久"},{"start":4815.345,"end":4839.126,"text":"从2024年5月我们整个在规划到现在中间还经过行政院要去做审议不过也跟我原报告刚刚您提到的降血脂药事实上我们非常多这一类的慢性病它不是只有单一个药品在供应它有非常多同成分同类型的药品我们也希望大家不要有药品的品牌的迷思它只是有类似的药品都是一样的这个问题你们提了很久那就是卡在行政院的意思吗"},{"start":4839.554,"end":4860.966,"text":"不是 我們其實這個東西為求周延我們過程中也要跟相關的學協會跟相關的團體在做討論對 因為我認為這個問題是非常嚴重的這個處理了一兩年的時間到現在我才看到成果這個不是成果 才開始要做這件事情那我覺得這個部分真的拖太久了我們也先感謝委員願意今天讓我們來做這個相關草案的審查"},{"start":4861.446,"end":4887.453,"text":"我也希望像我們那個在前陣子提的那個外送員專法這種速度我也希望我們執政行政院提出來版本盡快來通過當然我是支持的那我看到這個西醫這個醫療器材供應資訊平台我發現上次12月10號質詢到現在已經過了一個多月但恢復供應的藥品數目還是掛零"},{"start":4888.553,"end":4909.866,"text":"那最後還是更新在12月9號那一天那我關心的這兩個缺藥的品項其中屬於必要藥品的是胰臟酵素這個卡麗硝那平台顯示還要再等今年到第二季到4到6月才會恢復供應那衛福部建議的替代藥品是食藥署去年才核定的土耳其藥品"},{"start":4910.626,"end":4919.507,"text":"那另外供應外科醫師手術進手術前的那3M的乾式刷手藝是7月8號我們就公告缺貨到現在"},{"start":4920.717,"end":4947.358,"text":"要到今年的第一季才能恢復供貨那這跟你們要求的這個藥商必須在缺藥前六個月通報並且有六個月的庫準剛好相反你們並沒有達到這個要求跟委員稍微簡單的報告舉剛才講卡麗硝這個胰臟酵素的其實我們一月份已經進來300萬顆緊急的所以我們這比原來速度能夠提前第二部分其實刷手這邊其實傳統的刷手其實是濕式刷手"},{"start":4948.078,"end":4971.372,"text":"那在裡面刷刷刷可是因為有乾式刷手這種新的所以他們刷了他們手頭破皮你沒有看到嗎上次我跟你講的時候對 我了解可是因為它的效果我們還是以病人的安全性為最重要所以一定要刷得夠乾淨那所以這種過程傳統的跟現在的所以醫師醫療的那一部分希望還是有這樣刷手的"},{"start":4972.372,"end":4999.212,"text":"所以我們就是同意他我們目前是在專案的進口的一個徵求當中我們也希望能夠趕快盡快能夠達成這件事你預計什麼時候我想是近期在第一季以內應該是就可以完成我們期待了再跟委員補充這就是我們提到藥品韌性的部分所有的這一個醫療程序所需要的不論是藥品或衛材不能只有單一的供應所以像您剛剛所提到因為像早年我們進客房我是那個刷手藝的年代的"},{"start":4999.972,"end":5027.52,"text":"我們刷手藝年代之後後來變成乾式刷手還學了一段時間才有辦法在乾式刷手確保它真的有刷乾真的有把它消毒乾淨所以跟我們報告就是藥品韌性的部分事實上就像剛剛您提到的有些藥品不是只有單一個品牌只要是同成分同樣效果的藥品我們希望能夠多方的供應我們當然是希望效果是一樣但是它用出來的副作用不一樣所以我們當然希望說它用好一點醫生也很辛苦他整年刷在那邊"},{"start":5028.181,"end":5030.656,"text":"你認為他一直用那種舊的那種"},{"start":5031.619,"end":5058.85,"text":"對他會比較好嗎好啦 那下一題啦這個台美關稅議定後的這個我們上週拍板嘛那我們也付了很大的代價才使得美國下修對等關稅稅率為15%那其中學民藥跟原料等項目獲得美方這個承諾不苛徵對等關稅那這可以看出看成是符合美國鼓勵以學民藥"},{"start":5059.83,"end":5083.047,"text":"取代專利期這個原廠藥的政策方向那相較之下專利藥必須配合在每投資與價格調整承受關稅壓力比較大那請問市長先前衛福部評估有約有75項不可替代的專利期的藥品如抗癌 罕見疾病 慢性藥品這個價格可能會大漲或者是缺藥"},{"start":5084.088,"end":5105.476,"text":"那現在關稅訂了那有沒有考慮過有沒有試算過這個要增加多少這個健保的支出報告委員其實因為這些藥品我們過去其實藥品各國之間他其實上基本上就沒有各個關稅的問題然後這次我們也確定說他就是現在他沒有談的是零關他是談起來是零關稅那我們其實所以你說你的意思是說他現在這些專利藥品都是零關稅對"},{"start":5107.554,"end":5126.428,"text":"藥品本來就零關稅那這些藥品它只要在生產國它價格沒有漲起來我們大概就是這個價格那另外的話我們當然在健保這邊為什麼去年有準備一個特殊就是因應這個談判我們做了一個預算的準備就是說假設真的有因為這個原因的變動而導致藥品的價格上升的話那我們健保在共理會這邊會做一些調整"},{"start":5127.352,"end":5152.993,"text":"那我再請問一下 衛福部有沒有什麼引導性的政策可以協助我國製藥廠的這個生技產業這個發展及出口 有沒有提過有 非常感謝委員 其實就像剛剛委員提到的我們國內事實上有非常好的這個我看到你們編列了4年240億的這個新興計畫 藥品任性計畫這個也希望委員可以有機會在大院趕快審那這裡面事實上我們有非常多第一個是我們盤點出不論是在相關的藥品"},{"start":5154.153,"end":5178.319,"text":"關鍵藥品或者是有一些合一藥品它事實上我們都有國內能夠自己來製成的潛力那過去長期依賴其他國家這些學名藥我發現我們台灣一個問題就是說當然它還是相信原廠的那學名藥我們其實在可以鼓勵我們我們台灣本地的藥廠能夠自己來生產那當然我希望我們這個藥能夠做一些替代藥品這樣就不用多要有仰賴進口"},{"start":5178.979,"end":5206.49,"text":"也對 其實我們有事實上我自己都常常說我不會把它叫做替代藥品事實上這些都是合法而且都是在第一線可以使用的藥品那所以說國內事實上過去有時候市場上講到說某一個國外的藥品不要再生產了等等事實上國內大概都類似的同樣成分的藥品都有相近十種以上本來供應就是穩定的所以這邊也是謝謝委員這邊關心這件事情我們事實上都長期能夠跟民眾這邊溝通說事實上它都是同成分藥品那同成分藥品"},{"start":5207.23,"end":5231.527,"text":"符合GMP的藥品都是能夠有一定一樣的效果的藥品另外我們這個健保這個每年實際支出藥費都超過目標那超出的這個價差會成為下一年度這個藥價調整的額度也就是說下一個年度把前一個年度的這個超出預算部分砍回來砍到藥商這個不符合成本那一直退出台灣的市場那當然這個"},{"start":5234.269,"end":5255.828,"text":"問題有很多啦有問題有很多那我發現就是說我們台灣每年丟棄的這個藥品大概有193公噸那將近5億顆那我們衛福部有沒有針對這個問題有沒有要做一個檢討的改善的一個措施其實一直以來我們都在宣導民眾就是他能夠但是效果不好嘛就是因為效果不好我現在就問說你們有沒有想過"},{"start":5256.989,"end":5278.758,"text":"有沒有更好更有效的方式我們當然不是一直要提升藥價但是我們要減少這個支出對不對 不要浪費在相關的藥品規範當然衛福部這邊我們能規範的是第一線醫師的處方能夠照標準減少重複用藥所以在健保雲端藥力裡面他能夠查到重複用藥的問題避免開立重複的藥品給民眾"},{"start":5279.838,"end":5307.454,"text":"那我們也其實推動了相關的整合門診有的時候老人家他要看好幾個科我就同樣整合起來讓他避免藥品的重複但是也希望民眾這邊他去慢性的領養他要乖乖的吃啦我再請問一下我們急診 庸篩的問題越來越嚴重那真正的原因並非重症的這個病患加重而輕症的比率過高那當然也增加了我們的醫療的這個負擔那影響重症患者的處置的一個效率"},{"start":5308.314,"end":5333.276,"text":"那有沒有考慮過目前中醫在急診體系裡面完全沒有角色那是不是當然中醫工會當然有希望爭取說中醫負責急診後段的這個輕症醫療特別適用在這個我們減傷第四級第五級常見的症狀如頭痛這個肌筋膜緊繃暈眩腸胃不適等等的這些症狀風險較低的這種症狀"},{"start":5335.778,"end":5351.349,"text":"那不需急救設備的這種而中醫針灸推拿穴位的處置方式比較安全那有沒有想過這個部分呢我們衛福部有沒有在做這個規劃其實我們一直都希望我其實也很尊重民眾的就醫習慣"},{"start":5352.21,"end":5381.13,"text":"那台湾当然因为在中医这边有一些特殊不同的跟其他国家不同的处置方式那我们也知道说很多民众有这样的信任所以我们也很感谢大家其实愿意提供这样的服务那当然在过年期间如果说在廉价期间我们中医诊所愿意开诊的话那我们也非常感谢好啊那你们有没有办法做一个规划你们卫福部回去可以做过一个规划吗我们可以规划我们会跟相关学习会讨论那你什么你给我一个报告好不好书面报告好是好谢谢好多久啊多久"},{"start":5381.778,"end":5389.942,"text":"委員我們一個月給您報告好不好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請廖偉祥召委來做選擇謝謝主席那請次長跟署長來 次長 署長跟江署長委員長"},{"start":5410.64,"end":5437.011,"text":"次長早 署長早我想要首先想要先請問一下次長署長請教一下這個食藥署在這幾年在推動這個藥品仿單電子化及西藥非處方簽的這個非處方藥仿單外合格式及規範想要請教一下這個次長或署長看誰回答都可以你們認為目前的推動成效怎麼樣"},{"start":5438.251,"end":5458.872,"text":"跟委員這邊做報告對藥品的所謂的仿單的電子化的部分目前只有250個藥品左右他們是主動的一部分是OTC的用藥一部分是其實是住院的徵記的用藥因為那個都是醫療院所用的那總共有多少其實是非常非常多的所以成效算是沒有到"},{"start":5459.512,"end":5483.031,"text":"很普及 還沒有到很普及所以這件事情其實我在署內積極推動說我們先做第一步所有的電子仿單要電子化之前其實要做格式化所以格式化的目的所有有兩個第一個在未來要轉成電子化的過程當中其實有非常非常多stakeholder我們利害關係者裡面我們最近其實是跟印刷業者在談這件事情"},{"start":5483.251,"end":5497.661,"text":"然後第二件事情是這個結構化訪單之後呢以後才有機會能夠轉換這轉換的過程中我們會積極的去規劃我們預計是今年的年底所有結構化能夠達成好 那請問一下署長這個目的是什麼"},{"start":5498.562,"end":5525.272,"text":"而我們其實目的呢是希望讓大家都知道資訊用藥的時候的相關的資訊嘛 是的簡單來講今天問這個題目就是要讓大家知道其實很多的藥你在使用的時候你不知道所有的內容細節甚至不確定完全知道這個有什麼副作用嘛 對不對所以我覺得資訊的可及性喔還不等於資訊的對於資訊的理解啦所以我本期也有接收到一些"},{"start":5526.793,"end":5540.346,"text":"食物上第一線的回饋特別是在兒童精神科的複雜情況下其實單靠家長如果要自行查閱這個訪單我想他也沒有辦法足以應對所有的狀況"},{"start":5541.627,"end":5570.917,"text":"所以本席在這裡想要講的事情說他其實就是相對來講他凸顯了這個醫病共享決策這件事情的重要性那尤其是兩位都是醫生其實你們也知道有時候開藥有時候我們去看醫生一開藥一整包這麼多藥品然後由藥劑師去包裝調劑包裝那如果醫生沒有足夠的時間對病人說清楚每一個藥的副作用病人也不一定可以真的清楚他回去之後吃了什麼可能導致他副作用"},{"start":5571.537,"end":5600.189,"text":"所以本席有觀察到在食物上的問題呢譬如說在癌症啊或是其他的重症上面這幾年衛福部有推行所謂的醫病共享決策嘛對不對那這個共享決策當然就是醫這個人為與病人為中心的在整個臨床的醫療執行過程中一個很充足的溝通那所以其實這個對於病人或家屬不論在生理上或心理上其實都有很高的效益喔那但是我有觀察到"},{"start":5601.941,"end":5609.937,"text":"謝謝委員肯定我們對沒錯我覺得這是這個是對的事情我們當然肯定可是我要告訴你們說我也有觀察到在兒童醫療的部分"},{"start":5611.109,"end":5628.478,"text":"其實因為兒童病人的知識有限所以他當然必須依賴這個監護人或家長但是呢在這個ADHD的這個病症上面因為台灣在教育體系裡面常常因為學校的輔導功能可能還不夠或者專業知識不夠甚至有時候會將篩檢的工具誤用為診斷的依據所以"},{"start":5633.661,"end":5657.512,"text":"有一些狀況學童不見得是因為ADHD但是在沒有生就原因之前可能就被學校建議家長送醫那如果在第一線沒有足夠的溝通或者是有疏失的情況之下或者是沒有很深入的去了解真的仔細的去檢查的時候因為有時候量很大就可能會直接用藥那這裡就會有個問題囉"},{"start":5659.434,"end":5676.501,"text":"因為ADHD的藥物包含有利他能和專絲達那這兩種都是三級的管制藥品那仿單上明確而仿單上要明確載明如果於藥品上市後曾有出現自殺念頭或意圖自殺的不良反應的通報"},{"start":5678.118,"end":5701.228,"text":"這是我聽到第一線的家長還有甚至是一些社工一些這個藥師在反映的狀況所以我就想要跟署長和次長講一下這件事情再來就是說我想要請問一下次長在食藥署跟健保署最近有沒有統計近年來關於利他能跟專施打在兒童族群的處方量的變化以及相關不良反應的通報次的數量請問有沒有"},{"start":5702.688,"end":5729.447,"text":"部長反應我等一下請同仁這邊幫我們查一下我先跟委員報告一下事實上ADHD它是有一定的盛行率我們也相信說我們第一線的兒新的醫師事實上能夠基於他們的專業來做出比較適當的診斷當然我們也了解過去在學校端有些其實也必須跟委員報告就是說有些ADHD的孩子他事實上受困於他的症狀他反而在學校是會被霸凌的"},{"start":5729.827,"end":5746.177,"text":"所以這一邊其實我們對於這樣的孩子不論是他用藥或者是沒有用藥或者相關孩子他有自殺或相關的念頭這個部分本來就是要通報的那至於是不是藥品那要後端去做一些相關的分析這不是都有通報過嗎如果有這種只要是自殺是一定都要通報那是另外我們在自殺防治通報"},{"start":5746.857,"end":5770.966,"text":"因為我要跟市長和署長說其實包含之前也有看到相關案例他可能小朋友因為長期沒有可能親耳垢啦還是有一些其他的狀況導致他的這個狀態讓人家誤判以為他是ADHD你知道有這種狀況因為我想ADHD的診斷當然我們是我們是尊重所有人是醫師最終的專業但是我要說其實第一線醫生不要說醫生 家長"},{"start":5771.966,"end":5800.622,"text":"或者是这种社工药师其实都有反映这样的状况委员我在补充一个资讯其实我们也非常感谢很多相关的专业人士来相关做协助所以之前像陈景洪医师他们有一个心动家族那我认为他的那个模式很好他甚至那个模式到东南亚去做一些宣导事实上这个他就是把家长老师然后还有他的医疗团队全部都作为同一个群组那这样子的话因为有的时候孩子的症状到底是疾病导致还是他的心理导致市长我就是要跟你说的就是这个事情"},{"start":5800.822,"end":5828.829,"text":"其實在開這樣子的藥品的時候或者是在做這樣子的診斷的時候當然我們就是希望說是不是可以有標準化的流程那也確保說家長監護人被充分告知所有潛在的重大副作用那當然有各個團體或者各個關鍵的角色去看這個小朋友的狀況這當然是我們覺得是最好一定要做到的嘛所以這個部分就是想要跟次長說尤其在診斷這個事情上面是不是可以加強推廣所謂的醫病共享的決策"},{"start":5829.409,"end":5854.634,"text":"然後並且將這個兒童ADHD的診斷跟治療列為這個醫病共享決策的優先推動項目之一也就是說這個醫師在開藥前是不是應該與家長甚至學校的教師可以更多的討論學童的各個面向避免直接開藥因為他可能會因為他開了這些藥的時候可能至少也要讓這些陪同的家長監護人老師或社工等等要很清楚的知道這個藥品的副作用"},{"start":5855.434,"end":5879.802,"text":"我覺得這部分是我想要強調的謝謝委員關心其實相關的各種疾病或者是各種用藥我們都是希望能夠在一個充分的醫病共享決策那事實上ADHD這個疾病過去長期以來它有很多人對它的這個我覺得有一些誤解那還是得強調就是它事實上目前在精神科尤其在兒心專科醫師這邊已經非常確定這些孩子如果是確診的孩子他是需要適當的治療的"},{"start":5881.182,"end":5907.261,"text":"但是这个过程中其实刚刚您所提到的有些时候是家长或者是老师我们也担心因为孩子这个疾病家长或老师他反而会把孩子其他的行为通通都归咎于这个疾病所以这里面我们希望说不要有这种误解当然中间的沟通家长或者是老师这边愿意积极主动的来陪同孩子到相关的儿心医师这边就医做出充分的沟通我们非常支持"},{"start":5907.301,"end":5933.93,"text":"次長因為這個時間的關係我希望請你們可以給本席一個這個檢討書面報告就是有關於這個目前的現在的精進作為或是目前的作為的狀況你們發現的問題我們把ADHD相關的一些我們也要把這個第一線剛剛的所有不管是家長或者是剛剛我說過社工啊要是他們發現的狀況在第一線的狀況我在這邊也必須告訴我們次長和署長有這個狀況請你們去關注然後給本席一個這樣子相關的報告"},{"start":5934.77,"end":5963.544,"text":"那再來我進入第二題就是其實本席也是看到衛福部在114年有推動所謂兒童醫療優化政策那其中有新設的口腔親善之家的專案那也強調所謂早期介入那固定醫療窗口那我覺得這是一個利益良善的政策然而這個標榜不漏接每一位兒童的計畫其實在起跑點上有漏掉一些需要國家保護的一群人"},{"start":5964.537,"end":5987.868,"text":"比如說這個受虐兒少啦性侵受害婦女之子女啦以及目前在安置機構中的弱勢童這個是這個有關於參與這個計畫相關的醫生告訴我的那目前的政策架構當然是建立顯然是建立在有家長帶領就醫的理想假設上面但是實務上我們有看到這個所謂安置機構的兒童他的這個舉齒的風險其實是極高那醫療的可進性卻極低"},{"start":5993.37,"end":6016.826,"text":"這個次長這群孩子在的家長在實質上喔就是我國的政府機關喔那針對這些所謂機構的兒童啦有沒有辦法為什麼沒有在第一時間被納入這個專案的優先保障的對象請教一下次長喔那當一個盡責的家長要為孩子安排這個牙齒圖佛啦會注意孩子的飲食啦我們的政府作為安安置兒少的法定家長"},{"start":6017.766,"end":6038.191,"text":"應該不能不聞不問吧所以我們希望這個社家屬為監護人那這個口腔健康師作為健康管理者這兩個單位應該要有更多的橫向聯繫然後而且要主動把這些小朋友納入這個範圍裡面我想委員這個部分我們在口腔師尤其是我們第一線的醫療人員這邊我們當然他不太可能自己去"},{"start":6039.291,"end":6062.865,"text":"自己去取得您剛剛所說的這些資訊受保護的弱勢族群的資料啦所以說資訊受保護的弱勢族群這邊的口腔健康的需求是不是我們之後如果說有相關的這一些團我們這邊有這樣的需求是不是我們有一個比較好的管道他提出來我們就來協助提供所以我現在就是希望你們去把這件事情做好因為你們這個東西你們有這個計畫可是實際上在第一線包含在地方上"},{"start":6063.365,"end":6091.065,"text":"其实都没有落实这个所谓资讯的连接而且让他们可以主动这些医师也愿意去主动去访试这些小朋友我们可以去访试不过这个资讯必须要从高风险这边就是愿意之后资讯出来我跟你讲这是有的你们应该跟地方政府包含社会局去沟通因为很多很多像我们第一线他们现在有在做这个计划的他们是找不满的你有10%要找这些孩童但是你找不满他们找不到不知道哪里找"},{"start":6091.886,"end":6109.127,"text":"那這些人他本來也不會主動來來看啊因為沒有人帶他來看啊甚至這個第一線醫師有反應說其實如果這個東西有做好的話甚至我們很多兒女包含之前的凱凱案可能很早就發現說他有異樣他去檢查牙齒的時候就會發現說可能有撞掉啊有發生什麼狀況其實這都是"},{"start":6111.129,"end":6133.041,"text":"一個很重要的點我在這裡一定要提供給我們我想這個中間的連結我們會盡量鼓勵就是說地方的這個尤其是社政這一邊他們如果有這樣的需求能夠來我想請問一下你們現在到底有沒有把這些兒童放到這裡面我們的高危險個案家庭訪視服務是有的但是就是這邊所提到哪些是高危險個案的訪視服務這個部分必須要由社政這邊提過來"},{"start":6134.442,"end":6158.451,"text":"對 你們要去聯繫吧這個東西 既然你們的責任因為你們有這個計畫其實他們橫向的聯繫是不清楚的其實他們也有說你們這個所謂的高風險到底定義在哪裡我們社會政這邊要互相溝通一下好了好不好對 可不可以盡速的給本席這個東西應該很快你們兩個禮拜內可不可以提供給本席辦公室我們再回去我們跟社政那邊對一下社政這邊他們到底是哪些所以委員這邊如果有相關的哪幾個"},{"start":6159.656,"end":6167.062,"text":"我們剛剛說機構的其實是被排在外面的沒有排在外面其實機構如果有需求我們當然一定提供我們是可以到你們回去趕快競速"},{"start":6167.987,"end":6196.361,"text":"研擬完之後給本席辦公室我們把我們目前有的方案提供給委員好不好因為他們第一線就是沒有辦法知道到底是誰而且找不到我都是第一線的聲音告訴你的這個我們也非常需要地方的社會局可以提供不是社會局的問題是有做這個計畫的醫療單位因為醫療單位他需要知道我要去跟誰服務所以你們現在就會辨識他覺得說好像是衛福部這邊需求端要讓我們所以我們現在反映給你我們再把這個計畫給委員了解好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6197.864,"end":6205.547,"text":"好 謝謝委員會在這邊宣告 請回我們蘇青瓊委員選擇結束之後休息十分鐘謝謝接下來請蘇青瓊委員謝謝我們主席尊敬的縣長他叫次長他叫江署長江署長"},{"start":6232.344,"end":6253.582,"text":"市長辛苦了來 我先問一個問題我們現在台灣一年的藥費就包括健保給付的還有我們說2800億左右是有沒有包括OTC的藥有一部分如果是健保給付的話健康食品沒有健康食品沒有"},{"start":6254.139,"end":6277.479,"text":"健康食品一年有多少規模那規模幾乎比藥品還多保健相關1500億保健相關應該是1500億以上1500億對 健康食品少但保健相關的食品我們目前努力在全面希望能夠進入納管然後以及對於它的廣告以及各項的所謂的潛在的可行的功效等等我們會目前持續在規劃當中"},{"start":6278.88,"end":6298.881,"text":"所以現在的藥品規模如果包括健保醫療用的加上OTC的 加上保健食品的那這樣一年應該要有4000多億差不多吧 多少你也不知道食藥署長你搞不清楚應該有問一下經濟部的同仁一下經濟部都亂講"},{"start":6304.667,"end":6326.694,"text":"現在美國的保健食品機關稅要歸零現在看起來是要歸零那些魚油什麼都全部大進來了我們現在健保要一年2800億左右那真的台灣生產的我記得市長才1200億喔"},{"start":6328.925,"end":6345.134,"text":"我們自己國內的藥品事實上它品項是多但是它其實因為都比較是屬於不是非常昂貴的藥品所以它的健保給付或者是相關的這個規模來講是比較少一點所以你現在修改藥師網你的目的就是"},{"start":6346.115,"end":6367.054,"text":"讓我們這裡的學民藥Generic的友情讓他保護要做原料藥也要保護讓我們台灣有韌性醫療你們今天目的是要這樣嗎今天這是確定就是說在某些緊急狀況之下後藥品缺乏的時候我們那個供應韌性要能夠穩定那另外還有一個計畫也希望大院可以支持就是我們的藥品韌性計畫"},{"start":6368.075,"end":6377.851,"text":"那保温就是针对国产药品国产原料药好那我们去辅导有些药品让他尽量逐渐的走向自己国产自己做不用依靠进口药品"},{"start":6378.511,"end":6397.649,"text":"那這是當然是我們的理想你知道我們這個國產的學民藥或者國產藥廠我是覺得他們很可憐三百幾斤然後產值那麼低然後一天到晚要購我看最近就有八十幾件"},{"start":6398.83,"end":6419.098,"text":"國外原廠來告台灣的侵害專利你們食藥署是在輔導還是保護你們有盡到責任嗎還是幫他去試報告委員就算這個部分其實特別提到所謂的專利侵害的一些訴訟我們有看到有八十件"},{"start":6419.938,"end":6445.518,"text":"那这些高的药费其实很多都是原来是原厂的原厂用很多很多的方式去审核延长一直延长它的专利所以我们其实在这个过程中我们前一阵子也跟特别有提到跟智慧产权局我们必须食药署跟智慧产权局去协作把这件事能够厘清能够透过我们的所谓的专利能够揭露之后让上市前的专利厘清"},{"start":6446.218,"end":6466.706,"text":"那也避免說是很漫長的所以我們做了一件事情叫做依法暫停12個月釐清專利的爭議能夠比照國際跟其他國家的專利連結的制度這個12個月呢讓他專利挑戰跟迴避成功的時候我們應該要再給他鼓勵因為現在 因為現在你剛才不是說教學在教車怎麼在說不過今天 今天 哎呀 愛哲 愛哲因為原廠要像一個月了現在又蓋一年了 又合作費"},{"start":6474.952,"end":6483.461,"text":"那個靠心 戒律阻止斷制跟這樣截止之後 夾社會就必須再一個新的再保護12年 15年我們經濟不好 不能做什麼事情"},{"start":6488.165,"end":6505.576,"text":"沒在煽情 再過了15年 因為我們這裡有錢也沒有機會他沒有心得藥 他就兩三種藥併在一起現在有三種藥 利尿劑也併進去兩三種藥併成一個 又一個心得藥又出來又是給你申請專利 又是10年 又是12年 又是15年"},{"start":6507.117,"end":6528.772,"text":"所以针对这一点我们其实我们有看到问题有看到问题你们解决有有有我们同时把这件事情跟经济部这边的我们智慧产产局这边能够做对接这件事情其实为了整体药物的韧性以对国内能够充满他们的支持之后药物韧性下来所以里面我们持续在做当中"},{"start":6529.893,"end":6534.579,"text":"保護 保護不好聽啦扶植我們的國產藥廠讓他們能夠這樣三八幾天看能不能直接從八八天安得好啊有的有藥症就不要生產生產就大家都死嘛大家都產殖一點點啊市長"},{"start":6546.674,"end":6572.764,"text":"我們盡量調整可是也報告委員我們也希望說至少要有幾家藥廠都有在生產某一個藥品或者是幾家藥廠都有能力生產某一種藥品這樣一旦某一家藥廠出問題我們可以協調其他藥廠來供應製造再來也跟委員報告就是說有些已經過專利期很久的其實有些已經過專利期很久的我們自己國產的藥廠是有能力生產的因為它已經沒有專利的問題了可是過去沒有相關的誘因它大家都全部依賴進口"},{"start":6573.744,"end":6591.553,"text":"所以我們現在就我們剛剛講那個藥品韌性計畫就是希望我們把它盤點之後來協助有國家的力量經濟部有一部分的預算120億在那邊要來協助這些藥廠自己生產還有還有我們前一陣子我們署長發下豪語說要讓我們這個國產的抗癌藥 標靶藥讓他們可以給我們扶持說讓他們的自戰力可以更高現在是怎麼樣 我看沒什麼事情"},{"start":6600.746,"end":6615.327,"text":"我这个部分的第一个叫生物相似用药生物相似用药生物相似的用药那以及在国内的药品癌症的药品我们也持续有在支持他们有嘛有增加吧"},{"start":6615.928,"end":6623.273,"text":"對 我們持續在審查的速度以及輔導上面在做我看你現在修藥是法你今天在那裡你叫他們定期申報本來就是申請至現在 以前叫做報備現在就要申請申請現在生產端跟使用端是醫院醫院用藥的自由度很高醫師大家都很聰明用他想用的 現在"},{"start":6639.162,"end":6663.269,"text":"申報 說你強制申報 一個月兩個月一劑等等那你現在說申報 那個價量一定會不服啊市長他們那個固定通報是說他假設半年內他有斷藥的問題他要讓我們知道那有些甚至依賴量很大的他提早讓我們曉得這樣我們才有辦法去協調其他的藥廠趕快供應或者是說我們有什麼方式來協助整個市場能夠變得更穩定"},{"start":6664.494,"end":6690.326,"text":"所以你們要捱的就是這個議案有兩三間在做也有一間出問題 跟電梯一樣 其他人可以對 因為我們的郵箱有這個能力郵箱有能力過去不叫人看檔所以現在希望我們不論是這次修法事實上是來強備完備他的法源另外那個藥品任性就是來做經濟上的優點他申報你又要給他罰則我是覺得一開始是要扶植"},{"start":6691.346,"end":6710.952,"text":"你賣政府就花了錢 要怕死人有錢有夠可憐的啊 我不針對哪一家但是我覺得我們國產大家都慘淡輕盈那進口進來的天災地變啊 颱風等等或是打仗啊等等 要我當那是很嚴重的事情不可抗力因素我們是不會去做懲罰的"},{"start":6712.392,"end":6733.037,"text":"對 就是說有時候顏料最後一個就是顏料要進來有時候顏料進不來所以我們台灣自己開發顏料我了解的好幾家做顏料的藥廠他們做出來的顏料成本太高所以反而都是銷到美國去然後我們再去印度買買那個顏料比較便宜的"},{"start":6734.093,"end":6750.426,"text":"我昨天發現我去查日本的Denonica的藥它的原料都從印度跟中國進這是很可怕的事情耶全世界大概60%都是從中國跟印度進口所以我們各國也都在希望能夠強化自己國家的藥品韌性"},{"start":6751.167,"end":6768.88,"text":"然後我們自己原廠藥這邊我們自己健保我們正在討論就是說我們要有一些鼓勵的機制因為我們過去是我們如果是使用本土的藥我們會有一些脊膚上面的誘因那如果說這個藥廠用自己的本土藥品他又用我們自己本土的原料藥我們現在原料藥我們現在正在規劃這邊能夠所以你原料藥的鼓勵是一個"},{"start":6769.66,"end":6786.172,"text":"那自己藥廠是做Generic的藥你也是要鼓勵這健保就要把他寬鬆一下健保局有這個想法嗎還是健保局都想要把他伺候死這樣那不可以這樣進去市長 你在管的所以這邊都共同來處理他們愛這樣好 最後一個問題因為我時間超過了謝謝主席讓我多講30秒"},{"start":6794.522,"end":6813.835,"text":"我們現在在做疫苗 孩子做疫苗是有一個疫苗基金嘛小孩子可以打我們的公費疫苗有疫苗基金啊沒有啊 如果大人的 大人的就歸到要害基金去了是不是疫苗這邊"},{"start":6816.26,"end":6833.896,"text":"疫苗受害是 疫苗的話疫苗有另外的疫苗它另外有一個它的那個不良反應的基金那邊要害救濟是另外這邊上次COVID-19那些人有的都去申請有的 我之前COVID-19住在家住住的產生問題很多很多很多"},{"start":6835.658,"end":6864.519,"text":"然後這些他們其實好像是藥癌基金在審那是疫苗基金疫苗那邊是疫苗基金嗎那為什麼對小孩子的補償是那麼的寬鬆對成人的這個補償是那麼樣的嚴格這個我們就我的了解應該是委員會裡面的委員他們會去找說實在因為我自己也參與過他在委員會裡面的各不同的這個專科醫師的專家他要去找reference回來去做相關的證明然後再來做一些採取啦"},{"start":6865.305,"end":6876.256,"text":"沒有就是說他的補償我沒講補償不要講賠償補償就是緩慢然後我看起來是很GY然後呢賠償的補償的金額有這麼的少那是你在賺的 市長"},{"start":6881.14,"end":6903.514,"text":"如果是疫苗的話那應該是CDC那邊應該是裝刺不過真共委員報告說這邊其實我們尊重整個委員會審查的這些專家啦有些很多像兒科很多都是兒科的大前輩那有一些疫苗的部分那如果是非常罕見的大概他們會找一些data來證明那如果是常見的就用援引過去的一些這個所謂的補償的方式"},{"start":6904.278,"end":6921.774,"text":"好 那謝謝就是本土藥廠這邊真的是要好好的用心不要跟他滑折從頭到尾沒有看到鼓勵不是拿著棒子要敲人家那也真的拜託委員希望大院能夠趕快來審我們那個藥物任性的那個新興計畫好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6933.895,"end":6934.861,"text":"好 我們現在休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7804.563,"end":7808.967,"text":"我們繼續開會 下一位我們請林書偉委員發言林委員請好 謝謝主席我是不是好 先請我們次長有請次長"},{"start":7835.441,"end":7844.863,"text":"委員長 次長早我上個禮拜質詢就是上週五上個"},{"start":7846.98,"end":7875.763,"text":"就是上上禮拜吧上上禮拜這個中榮發生廠商進手術室帶刀事件那你們調查報告應該已經出來了你可不可以稍微簡單說一下報告委員其實台中榮總這一邊台中榮總他們在1月15給我們的調查結果就是確認醫師有違規讓廠商進入手術室的管制區域那目前中榮是給予行政懲處我現在問你是他有沒有帶刀"},{"start":7877.219,"end":7895.74,"text":"有没有带医师操刀操作手术我们在目前他对外的那个资讯看起来是有一些疑虑那但是中融给你们的报告你们就全部都没有报告委员今天我们包含医师师已经直接要到台中融总区一起进行调查你们医师师师长啊呃"},{"start":7898.868,"end":7915.035,"text":"可能是有失公允他在上個禮拜五1月16他說中榮已經提出調查報告確認有三名醫師未依規定完成報備程序違規放行草上進入手術室他直接已經定義你們的司長劉悅平"},{"start":7916.596,"end":7917.797,"text":"他直接說 OK"},{"start":7932.631,"end":7946.907,"text":"劉悅平這樣說是根據中榮報告就算了但是人家媒體接著問你劉悅平說這個懲處是不是過輕因為只有申戒一次"},{"start":7947.688,"end":7964.859,"text":"然後你們劉悅平答覆 中榮對於三名涉案醫師各寄生借一次屬人事處分 醫生都是資優生對醫師來說 被寄生借是很丟臉的事情尤其是科部主管 影響其實不小"},{"start":7967.501,"end":7978.133,"text":"你那個劉悅平 劉司長沒有客觀公正沒有扮演起目的事業主管機關的職責然後說這樣的處分已經是影響很大了報告委員其實我們現在"},{"start":7982.338,"end":8000.404,"text":"現在最近現在最新的資訊也跟委員這邊做個報告就是說部長這邊已經先要求健保署去調查因為如果這個過程中牽涉到這個醫師這一邊的健保申請那如果不是醫師自己親自做這樣的相關執行手術的動作的話那健保這邊會有一些相關的追回跟懲處"},{"start":8001.124,"end":8021.278,"text":"你知道嗎 次長你這樣子輕輕的講過去 但是我要告訴你啊你們上個禮拜五中榮報告丟出來你們劉悅平這樣講以後人家就有影像已經在媒體揭露了你們的影像看起來大家都覺得說"},{"start":8023.12,"end":8050.134,"text":"沒有預期會有人敢檢舉所以你們當時就認為說大概沒有具體證據下本來是要持續否認後來人家把影像丟到媒體曝光以後然後相關說法才隨著影像逐步出現而被迫修正就像擠牙膏一般被動而且消極看起來就是這樣子 來"},{"start":8052.731,"end":8079.757,"text":"知新聞講的這些外科神經外科主任鄭文玉不但沒有穿著手術服沒有戴滅菌手套雙手還抱在胸前而直刀的竟然就是這個被爆料的陳姓一財傷所以我就說嘛大家都知道只有衛福部不知道還有躺在那裡的病人不知道人家檢舉了"},{"start":8083.059,"end":8102.197,"text":"還繼續隱瞞 如果影片沒有出來 劉悅平還繼續幫中榮幫醫生袒護所以人家質疑你 劉悅平依依相護啊人家質疑你們並沒有解決問題 從制度面去好好"},{"start":8103.237,"end":8126.792,"text":"這個整頓的決心啊報告委員其實部長也提到了就是說半年內我們會提出相關的這一個共同的一個指引除了指引以外部長還指導你們還要做什麼包含就剛剛提到的這邊第一個是健保這邊去做調查第二個部分就是說如果這邊有違反相關的法律的話那全部都要依照法律來做調查僅此於此嗎現在的法律規定足夠嗎"},{"start":8131.786,"end":8148.507,"text":"我已經質詢過他了醫師法第28條密醫行為是有刑責的他們都不在乎欸有1月7號我們含送房間裡面的大象大家都看得一清二楚醫界也有人出來說護理界有人出來說"},{"start":8149.788,"end":8174.339,"text":"醫財界有人出來說 連這個醫院都有人出來說大家都知道 看得一清二楚房間裡面的大象 現在你們告訴我們說訂指引 立委給他們指引過立委跟他們說第一要件是什麼因為現場在座的參與的 每個人都是共同炸七飯共同炸七飯檢舉的人也有刑責"},{"start":8176.265,"end":8204.452,"text":"檢舉的人 具體的人 具名的人 也有刑責所以我已經講了法律就不怕 你頂指引要從下 指引不夠所以要頂這個吹哨者保護的機制要讓吹哨者可以從刑事責任裡面豁免出去所以你去頂相關指引要配套配套就是要有吹哨者保護的機制而你們在這裡"},{"start":8207.054,"end":8234.328,"text":"聽你們一直在講 定指引 定指引這樣沒有檢舉就沒事了現在是怎樣 人力短缺所以都叫醫材上去帶刀那個不是人力短缺的問題那是長期以來那個其實這樣講就是說有一些比較特殊新的醫材我們也理解他可能在醫師這邊操作上需要一些協助但是我們還是要再一次澄清廠商不可以站到table上去在病人身上執行相關的業務"},{"start":8237.53,"end":8255.797,"text":"那你告訴我你覺得哪些帶刀的科別集中在哪些科別這些科別目前來講哪些科別我們包含這次神經外科我們接下來可能還包含骨科等等這些我們都要進行一些調查眼科有沒有委員這邊有相關的資訊的話"},{"start":8262.17,"end":8289.255,"text":"怎麼會這樣子呢你去看我的YouTube人家都來留言啦所以哪些醫材因為器械很新甚至醫材的業務帶刀操作的比你們的醫生還要更賢手手術做的可能也可能更好就算這樣也不行也不亞裔就算這樣也不行你知道嗎他再厲害都不行那我現在要告訴你你們的醫生不用精進嗎新的手術刀法不用精進嗎你新的醫材不用練習嗎"},{"start":8290.655,"end":8300.341,"text":"那誰要當這個獸數的實驗的人其實相關的某些程序事實上有的是用模具可以事先做一些處理啦那當然不是全部啦你們有規範嗎有規範嗎"},{"start":8304.4,"end":8322.893,"text":"大排的醫生 新的 小的 細節 他們也不要餓啊要在這裡叫醫材上來做這種簡單的沒有檢舉就沒事檢舉之後 醫生都說我自己做的現場大家都共同炸七飯 不敢出來那你的吹哨者保護機制在哪裡"},{"start":8324.324,"end":8343.543,"text":"我記得其實去年吹哨者相關的法規已經過了刑責他沒有包含這個啦免刑責你告訴我吹哨者保護機制去年的法律哪一條可以適用哪一條我因為其實現在在調查裡面我們是沒有去追究到底是誰來提供這些影片啦"},{"start":8345.393,"end":8359.868,"text":"你的腦袋轉不過去當事人如果知道他就馬上去提告馬上都是共同詐欺犯而且一年以上的是完全不能交保的不能緩刑的非坐牢不可的"},{"start":8361.178,"end":8387.428,"text":"這很重的罪耶但是就很多人還在做啊因為沒在怕啊大家都涉案在裡面欸 奇怪人家麻醉科醫師護理師跟他沒有相關 他也沒拿到錢但是已經被迫要參與在裡面共同詐欺我們不會認定他們有這樣的行為啦那不是你不認定 刑法的認定主責機關是你嗎你是檢察官嗎 你是法官嗎"},{"start":8388.989,"end":8411.551,"text":"共同詐欺 這個就是共同詐欺 構成要件就是這樣子而且以中融為例 2017年他們院內第三次手術室管理會議中就已經明確的決議 開會已經決定絕對禁止廠商刷手跟刀或碰觸病人傷口及身體 而且絕對禁止手術進行"},{"start":8412.648,"end":8416.311,"text":"由這個業務來帶刀這種規範在中榮2017年就訂了內容很明確那為什麼2023年還發生這麼離譜的事這件事情我們請中榮的院長這要趕快去查清楚所以次長"},{"start":8429.059,"end":8443.746,"text":"這個不是規定的問題嘛不是有沒有規定的問題是制度內執行還有內部管理失靈還有長期中央主管機關放任不查所以這個問題是"},{"start":8445.729,"end":8461.494,"text":"醫院本身的管理和內控機制都沒有發揮作用啊中央主管機關你未來到底要怎麼監督和介入啊難道只能停留在繼續被動的等醫院回報相信醫師自律嗎你們的劉悅平就是這樣子"},{"start":8462.794,"end":8487.236,"text":"土法不足以自行 有行者的都沒在怕所以這不是法治面而已 這有執行面困難的地方你們劉悅平講這個話 就是一一相互所以更令人憂心的是 劉悅平還可以講說醫生從小到大都是資優生 被寄生界很丟臉當前提"},{"start":8488.317,"end":8507.569,"text":"你就形同玉色了醫生群體不會也不可能發生違法行為那麼你的主管機關都這樣講了那我們只能夠人民病人只能夠選擇相信嗎那請問制度面監督病人的權益是誰要來承擔啊"},{"start":8508.977,"end":8513.927,"text":"這不是法律字面的問題執行面你們自己部內已經這種態度了劉悅平這種態度我們可以信任你 要改革"},{"start":8521.348,"end":8547.028,"text":"吹哨者保護機制我們這個案子因為媒體一揭露其實我們就已經請鐘榮的院長不要一開始就出來說沒事要趕快去查你們就個案處理但這不是個案你去看我的youtube下面人家具體台南某個醫院某某某個醫院人家都講了都有人出來吹哨了所以歡迎來跟我們檢舉"},{"start":8550.699,"end":8561.228,"text":"檢舉的人有刑責伺候我檢舉我自己是共同詐欺犯要怎麼檢舉你有給人家吹哨子保護免刑責的機制嗎你告訴我有沒有你說歡迎大家來檢舉檢舉的人馬上共同詐欺的共犯委員您剛剛說刑責不是我說的"},{"start":8572.953,"end":8590.928,"text":"對啊 那你有免除人家的刑責嗎你有提出修法案嗎你有在醫師法裡面明文規定可以吹哨者免除刑責嗎你要修法捏 你說到事不關己你這種態度還能笑我覺得這正經事欸 很嚴肅欸"},{"start":8593.286,"end":8617.181,"text":"你還能夠覺得說不用修法不是委員剛剛是您說我不能刑責不是我講了算你說沒有刑責你們不會認定是刑責就不是你認定了 你憑什麼認定你有沒有責任你要修法在醫師法裡面把檢舉人免除刑責放到法律裡面來你現在推薦你的責任"},{"start":8618.442,"end":8628.318,"text":"你沒有權利 你說我要認定他們沒有刑責你沒有這個權利當你有責任的時候 你要去修醫師法的時候你就說 我沒有權利"},{"start":8631.158,"end":8653.842,"text":"不是這樣子的態度啦不是這樣啦你劉月平那個態度可以嗎你說說看你說說看劉月平的態度可以嗎委員我們這個案子我們全力來調查這不是這個案子你老是說個案這個案子他是全台灣全面性的全面性的骨科神經外科眼科脊髓外科"},{"start":8658.717,"end":8670.719,"text":"全面性的每個醫院很多都被人家講出來他不是一個醫院不是只有中榮你到底要怎麼解決"},{"start":8672.694,"end":8695.194,"text":"指導原則能做什麼違反指導原則會怎麼樣你要定一個指導原則違反指導原則會怎麼樣沒有委員我們剛剛提到他這裡面有些部分他會牽涉到對於我們健保那邊事實上是有違法的那剛剛提到醫師法以及密醫法這邊目前的法律當然都可以先處理當然委員如果提到要修法我們也尊重委員的評估你不認為應該要修法你不認為應該要解決這個問題嗎這要解決這個問題啊"},{"start":8698.286,"end":8704.66,"text":"你要怎麼解決第一個指導原則有法律有刑責他都不怕了那你的指導原則要做什麼蛤"},{"start":8709.639,"end":8737.284,"text":"我覺得很訝異啊次長你這種態度我想這個問題不會解決因為你宣示了一個跟劉月平一模一樣的態度醫生絕對不會違法醫生都是資料生醫生被自己申請很丟臉所以醫生絕對不會違法現在醫生很多都在違法當中而且還把麻醉科醫師把無辜的護理師都牽扯拉進來"},{"start":8738.988,"end":8754.643,"text":"他們何其無辜 其實很多業代也不願意當密醫而你制度面沒有保護這群人你們更是制度面忽略了病人該享有的保護的他有"},{"start":8756.116,"end":8768.383,"text":"廠商本來就不可以在病人身上指導現在就在病人身上指導所以我們要相關 後續調查之後要相關的排查不是一件 不是只有這個個案你剛才說消尾嘛好我們請回 跟你說不好我繼續問我們是藥署有請江署長"},{"start":8778.467,"end":8798.733,"text":"署長 上週五發生寶城興業有限公司豐原國際企業有限公司涉嫌從2024年起從國外輸入成本低廉的橄欖油破然後以日本一番頂級橄欖油的名義對外販售給下游廠商依照地檢署"},{"start":8799.793,"end":8813.508,"text":"還有你們的說法就這樣子你們主動告發然後地檢署說他們違反食安法第15條第1項第7款摻尾和假冒我請問你他們摻了什麼東西假冒了什麼東西"},{"start":8816.955,"end":8835.501,"text":"這個油品呢 它是用所謂感染破油摻了一個東西 摻了叫做同業綠素他們確定有加同業綠素嗎對 在查的過程當中我現在問你 因為你的新聞稿都沒有 你不要在這裡說謊喔新聞稿完全沒有描述他們摻了同業綠素"},{"start":8837.822,"end":8856.693,"text":"這邊委員特別詢問我特別因為還在偵辦當中我們自己驗的實驗室驗的我們是有驗到的同業律師所以跟你們去跟委員做進一步報告在確定之下呢感染破油是有這樣子的油品在CNS4837號的標準使用不要講CNS你的法規不應該要用經濟部的CNS標準"},{"start":8862.896,"end":8875.516,"text":"你的法律應該是你們的食品的品名標示標準要定規範我今天要講的如果他沒有加同業率數如果沒有的話請問他有違法嗎"},{"start":8878.343,"end":8904.201,"text":"報告委員他沒有加同業綠素但是假如他直接寫他是所謂的精緻的所謂的出炸油這個就是違法現在是在說什麼啦你們待乎職責就在這裡因為如果他沒有加同業綠素他從國外進口橄欖破油然後他說我這是頂級的橄欖油如果其他的廠商這樣做有沒有違法"},{"start":8905.086,"end":8909.45,"text":"有 他違反什麼法他在這個過程當中呢並不是他確確的所謂的原來的所謂的頂級出炸的橄欖油他沒有寫出炸 他寫頂級橄欖油即便他寫這個頂級橄欖油請問他違反什麼法因為市售橄欖油的油品你不要在這裡胡說八道我現在在這裡就跟你講"},{"start":8931.021,"end":8954.7,"text":"你的法律不應該講國家標準CNS因為那是沒有強制性那只是參考用的沒有法律的強制性而你現在就是食品安全衛生管理法的施行細則第七條第一項第二款因為你沒有制定"},{"start":8956.543,"end":8977.502,"text":"橄欖油的品名標示標準你沒有所以要用你的施行記者第一條第七條第一項第二款他說經中央主管機關規定者要依中央主管機關規定的名稱但是從假油事件到現在你們通通都沒有制定"},{"start":8978.809,"end":9005.085,"text":"什麼叫做感染有這個名稱那根據你們的施行細則沒有規定者得使用中華民國國家標準所定的名稱或是自定其名稱自定其名稱沒有強制性喔謝謝委員 委員其實非常精準的把食安法的施行細則第七條裡面做了跟我們做一些說明上面寫得不是因"},{"start":9006.345,"end":9016.491,"text":"他可以自己定名稱我把感染破友定成頂級感染友請問有沒有違規違法 沒有 那你們做了什麼你們應該做什麼 署長你告訴我"},{"start":9025.273,"end":9036.421,"text":"如果你把什麼叫做感染由你的品名標示標準的法律訂出來今天他這麼做就直接違法了"},{"start":9039.5,"end":9062.058,"text":"從2013年的假油事件 假橄欖油事件到現在2026年了 14年了我們看到2016年曾經衛福部食藥署說橄欖油要比照聯合國分五級你後年上路就是2018年要上路 曾經"},{"start":9063.635,"end":9089.351,"text":"到現在經過14年你們獨職你們不敢訂出什麼叫做感染油因為沒有訂出品名的標示標準所以業者把感染破油如果沒有添加非法的添加物他跟他說我是頂級感染油沒有違法 沒有違法"},{"start":9090.373,"end":9107.705,"text":"因為政府沒有定出什麼定義什麼叫感染 有所以就是對業者最大的縱放而今天 今天在這裡你了解阿公是縱放縱放的責任是誰是你 是政府"},{"start":9109.641,"end":9132.803,"text":"縱放廠商 這樣子亂搞的大家都很滿意 我也沒什麼頂級啦每次的秀秀都說我是優質感染油 明明的破油 破油為什麼不行你知道嗎 為什麼破油不行破油有沒有違法破油沒有違法對 破油用什麼去萃取的它用感染油破"},{"start":9134.028,"end":9160.265,"text":"不是啦 他加化學溶劑嘛他用溶劑 蒸擠完 那你想像不到欸化學溶劑 用脫膠 脫酸 脫色 脫臭的方法去把感染由人家炸完的破 拿回來再萃取合法的使用化學溶劑 合法的添加物"},{"start":9161.618,"end":9182.773,"text":"然後成為破油破油的健康風險是什麼你最知道你是腎臟科專家破油使用化學溶劑長期大家以為感染油是好油你不知道你買的感染油是破油因為政府沒有規定一定要把破油寫清楚"},{"start":9183.593,"end":9204.736,"text":"政府沒有規定所以廠商可以自己訂名稱我也不用訂得太好聽我也不用講說我是VIRGIN的我也不要講出詐我只要寫優質感染油也不用優質我就寫感染油其實都是破油化學溶劑萃取 你告訴我健康風險是什麼"},{"start":9205.815,"end":9223.594,"text":"報告委員因為油品出廠其實有規格啦如果他的破油他也是一種油可以使用的也不要完全合法的啊合法的啊對我說科技其實進步到可以把這些油能夠做再利用我們要但是他沒有直接把他接到我最後跟你說你剛才說破油合法的"},{"start":9226.437,"end":9231.422,"text":"但是我們希望消費者有知情的權利什麼叫橄欖油什麼叫出炸什麼叫混合油你把橄欖油的品名標示標準訂出來可以嗎這個部分我們答應可以嗎我們進一步的去研議一定給委員進一步的說明"},{"start":9244.073,"end":9271.316,"text":"因為這樣子其實是高風險的這是高風險的品項嘛長期吃破油長期吃化學容器萃取的破油這不會是好事所以在這裡看到假油混油藥屬在過去都是個案處理沒有上升到制度層次去回應所以這樣的管理態度太消極我們不能接受而感染油現在絕對不是只有這一家有問題"},{"start":9272.677,"end":9293.192,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 頂級感染油 純感染油 這是什麼油到底是不是感染油 什麼叫做感染油 通通都不知道所以我們在這裡希望 你把感染油的品名標示標準法規定出來 會很困難嗎"},{"start":9294.997,"end":9306.505,"text":"2013年研議到現在還需要研議嗎是因為廠商的利益被打減損了要跟廠商研議嗎2013年到現在還需要研議嗎馬上制定什麼叫做橄欖油什麼叫破油什麼叫出炸什麼叫這個精緻橄欖油"},{"start":9328.493,"end":9335.723,"text":"因為這整個牽涉的稍微廣 如果可以的話我們三個月內一定把牽涉的稍微廣我們等了13年了啦 2013年到現在"},{"start":9337.751,"end":9353.004,"text":"容我們可以14年2012年謝謝要多久我們可不可以用三個月的時間我們一定三個月你是要訂什麼三個月要做什麼我們在這個過程中其實要因為在CNS底下什麼CNS底下你們沒有訂CNS"},{"start":9356.787,"end":9364.254,"text":"不是CNS底下這些品名如何把它轉換其實都是製程上面要確立現在Cortex是9項如果你要分成CNS的5項勉強可以但是已經講夠久了14年13年了不要再讓人民繼續吃你以為花很貴的買的其實是破油"},{"start":9377.367,"end":9390.797,"text":"不可以這樣啦好 謝謝 謝謝委員 非常謝謝實案問題非常非常嚴重的事情就必須要快速的做更積極的因應啦接下來請王振旭委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席"},{"start":9403.925,"end":9415.36,"text":"那我要請衛福部林市長還有食藥署江署長還有經濟部的產發署陳副署長來討論市長好市長好副署長好今天有三個題目分別來請教三位"},{"start":9422.769,"end":9444.117,"text":"第一個部分就是有關台美關稅談判的成果還有對我國這個醫療產業發展方向的一個未來跟如何協助整個產業在這方面的發展第二部分就是我國邁入這個超高齡社會以後要加強這個長者的公費疫苗的接種我們如何能夠讓他做得更好"},{"start":9444.657,"end":9461.014,"text":"那第三個部分就是藥品無止化的政策應該跟經濟部還有環境部來共同的研商所以第一個部分就要麻煩三位一起來瞭解還有針對於我們台美關稅談判以後如何醫藥發展可以更全面"},{"start":9461.494,"end":9487.479,"text":"那我相信大家都非常的高興看到我們政府院長這麼努力的談判下來終於可以爭取到非常好的一個結果那台美這個貿易的這個談判最後爭取到就是我國輸往美國的學名藥跟原料藥的關稅是連關稅我相信這個對於整體尤其是藥界來講是非常振奮的一個消息"},{"start":9488.579,"end":9502.885,"text":"那我們也很期待能夠籌組國家隊來搶攻這個美國的市場那針對這一部分呢其實也有五大的信賴的產業就是包括半導體人工智慧國防科技安全與監控"},{"start":9504.506,"end":9529.588,"text":"次世代的通訊跟生物科技等產業的台美雙向的投資機制可以透過這樣的方式來建立起來那從蔡總統到賴總統一直希望能夠推動我國生技跟智慧醫療的產業發展能夠打造出台灣的第二座的護國神山因此我國的政府針對製藥生技跟智慧醫療的產業接下來會有哪一些的策略或者是計畫"},{"start":9530.669,"end":9554.082,"text":"是到美國投資為主呢還是希望能夠也有機會吸引美國相關資本跟技術到台灣來投資那各位麻煩就是針對有一些包括生技的部分就次長那如果是藥物的部分就麻煩署長那同時經濟部如果同步的發展跟協助就麻煩我們的副署長那各位麻煩次長"},{"start":9554.902,"end":9570.557,"text":"先跟委員報告謝謝委員關心就是說其實我們台灣事實上我們的相關原料藥的產製事實上是很有潛力的那只是過去長期因為市場整個規模的關係所以事實上有被低估那我們剛剛其實在前面很多委員在問的時候我們一再強調我們這次提的那個藥品韌性計畫"},{"start":9571.838,"end":9597.517,"text":"事實上我們就會盤出很多我們自己國內藥廠有那個潛力可以製造的這些藥品那一部分當然前提是希望能夠讓他們鼓勵他們生產來供國內的使用但是我們自己也持續跟美方在討論就是說甚至包含美國日本其他國家我們在談的事情是供應韌性這件事情不能只靠每個國家自己來自產自銷事實上要互相之間來協助所以有一些藥品如果說有機會的話我們也希望能夠來鼓勵我國的藥廠"},{"start":9598.437,"end":9620.252,"text":"這些相關的選民藥它有機會銷到美國因為既然是這樣子的狀況它也可以協助美國的一些藥品比較穩定這個部分先做一個報告那另外的話在這個生技產業的部分那因為包含我們今年再生醫療法已經上路了所以說在再生醫療跟細胞治療這個部分我們的研發的這個量能跟潛力事實上我相信委員很清楚我們研發量能是很好的我們很多經驗跟很多的"},{"start":9620.872,"end":9634.993,"text":"這些目前已經在推廣的這些藥廠生技產業他應該是有機會能夠跟全球來做鏈接那另外還有一個我們的潛能就是我們在AI的發展上面那我們在AI相關智慧醫材的部分我們食藥署跟CDE事實上對於智慧醫材相關的這個審核"},{"start":9636.275,"end":9665.435,"text":"我們從生測會這邊協助食藥署這邊協助我們有越來越多相關的AI醫材的部分來做協助那這個部分他領證之後其實我們目前包含新南向的一代產或者是我們今年在WHO我們去WHO我們今年會有一個智慧醫療展希望能夠藉這個機會讓國際社會能夠看到台灣在AI醫療產業這個部分的潛力跟能量那我們當然站在政府這邊我們不論是食藥署相關的法規或者是在跟其他單位我們全力來做協助那耀平我請署長這邊補充"},{"start":9668.676,"end":9684.662,"text":"有關於藥品的部分我們藥品的出口過去在我們的不管是原料藥或者是學名藥我們產值其實10億美金左右在整體來講我們覺得還是不足的消亡美國的部分那除了這以外我們對打開我們"},{"start":9687.338,"end":9700.465,"text":"其他的國家的市場的部分我們是積極的輔導尤其是在這一次的藥物韌性的計畫向下我們希望能夠輔導國內的藥品在落地台灣同時能夠做國際的輸出"},{"start":9704.247,"end":9732.053,"text":"我們希望在藥品的韌性能夠打造我們堅實成為美國特別是在學名藥原料藥的供應鏈之一台灣目前的原料藥有專門出口的其實我們知道的上百件相關於我們的學名藥的也有數百件這個已經是有這樣的確定了如何讓國內的生產源頭同時在國內落地跟國際上面能夠接軌的部分其實我們特別強調的是"},{"start":9733.573,"end":9757.987,"text":"在國際組織上面的參與不管是在ICH或者是ICMIA或者是APEC的架構底下我們希望能夠達到的是很中心的所謂調和harmonization在這種調和之下呢進一步的希望能夠對於雙邊的互信之下的所謂的審查互信的審查也能夠達到我們的韌性所以這整個的規劃的像是希望能夠從內部"},{"start":9759.468,"end":9778.733,"text":"能夠擴展到外部能夠達成整體的供應鏈剛才特別提到的學名藥跟原料藥的零關稅在美國的部分所以在這種前提之下讓雙方的我們的供應鏈尤其藥品的供應鏈能夠互相的因為台灣的原料藥其實品質好相對的它的價格是高的"},{"start":9779.113,"end":9797.485,"text":"那所以國內國際的特別是國際的大藥廠其實是持續在使用當中如何引導進入我們的藥物供應鏈在國內所以在這次的藥物韌性裡面也達到能夠支持讓他能夠永續發展跟經營以上說明好謝謝署長的說明那經濟部也是重責大任"},{"start":9799.286,"end":9820.163,"text":"我想這一塊的話經濟部一定跟衛福部一起共同來做一個努力那目前的話在那個藥廠相關的一個研發部分的話經濟部這邊會提供所謂的主題性的補助來讓業者這邊持續來做研發那在法規上面的話我們也有相關的一些"},{"start":9821.103,"end":9846.241,"text":"一些抵檢的一些項目包括生技醫藥的發展條例的話大概針對新藥的話大概有25%可以來做一個抵檢那如果是一般的一些研發的話那這邊我們會透過產創條例第10條也會有15%的一個抵檢所以不管在法規上跟補助投資方面的話我們都會來做一個努力謝謝委員"},{"start":9847.122,"end":9863.838,"text":"好 謝謝我們期待兩個部會共同的來努力那就麻煩署長跟副市長先請回座再過來我請教一下次長有關你這個超高齡社會應該要強化這個公費疫苗雖然這個不一定跟次長就直接管直接這個事務有關聯"},{"start":9865.64,"end":9884.548,"text":"不過我們也知道我們已經進入到超發力社會65歲以上長者流感疫苗的接種率就非常重要因為長者萬一發生流感後面造成的問題是比較嚴重不管是急診或者是重症影響都會非常的明顯"},{"start":9885.308,"end":9902.742,"text":"那根據2024年的這個記錄裡面我們的流感接種率在65歲以上的長者只有48%我們看到了這個統計呢韓國又第一名我們很羨慕他居然有到82.5%包括超過這個WHO的75%其他國家都還不錯"},{"start":9904.984,"end":9932.776,"text":"所以針對這部分今年我們還沒有知道說到底有多少長者有沒有更好的這個接種率不過如何來宣導長者對疫苗的信心這個很重要另外如何能夠鼓勵更多的基層醫療院所願意投入相關的這個疫苗施打的工作那衛部也要更努力那不知道衛部目前有沒有規劃或策略如果次長有所自息的話"},{"start":9933.516,"end":9960.106,"text":"好謝謝委員真的我們台灣的這個流感疫苗的接種先跟委員報告今年的公費疫苗接種率狀況是比去年好很多今年公費的部分幾乎都都已經接種的差不多了那公費這邊民眾接受度還不錯那當然其實就像委員提到的尤其是長者的流感因為既然是高風險我們當然尤其是有很多慢性病共病之下它事實上一旦傳染一旦得到流感它事實上後續的那個中重度的"},{"start":9960.846,"end":9975.335,"text":"發生併發症的機會很高那不過也真的像剛剛委員所說的我們台灣有一定程度接受疫苗的這個願意接受疫苗但是有一部分其實在疫苗的假消息跟錯假消息錯誤資訊非常的多我想委員一定也遇過"},{"start":9976.235,"end":9998.902,"text":"那我自己是常常聽到有一些真的是有地方的長輩會講說他真的不能打他慢性病很多不能打我想說你完全講顛倒慢性病很多一定要去接種那這邊我們也非常感謝就是說當然我們在衛福部這邊也希望委員在繼續來支持我們包含在宣導的政策上面因為去年的宣導費用是真的有受到一點影響所以我們能夠宣導的這個資訊比較少但我們盡量想辦法用多元管道去宣導"},{"start":10000.282,"end":10028.464,"text":"那再來的話當然是說我們在比較多合約院所這邊我們有相關制度上面讓合約院所越來越能夠來配合協助來做公費疫苗的施打那當然也謝謝很多地方衛生局他們可能有一些比較大型的施打站那讓這個接種能夠更方便另外的話也跟委員這邊說明就是說包含了我們在接下來的我們的888計畫裡面慢性病防治裡面888他在慢性病防治的過程中也希望說第一線的醫療人員協助我們因為醫生講的話有時候比政府容易讓人家信任"},{"start":10029.184,"end":10047.478,"text":"所以讓醫生來講另外的部分在大嘉義計畫裡面我們有把公費疫苗接種的這個接種率有放在大嘉義計畫裡面的一些相關的獎勵所以這裡面還是非常依賴包含第一線的醫療人員還有我們就是村裡裡面的林長里長幫我們相關的宣傳這個疫苗接種的重要性是"},{"start":10048.098,"end":10073.943,"text":"的確保護長者在這個流感期間能夠接受完整的疫苗注射真的是非常重要那也謝謝剛剛次長說明大家共同努力也看到了一些成果那我們也知道事實上現在針對這個年長者如果能夠用這所謂的加強型的疫苗它的保護效果可能會更好所以也謝謝我們CDC這邊今年也採購了20萬劑的加強型疫苗"},{"start":10074.483,"end":10096.18,"text":"可是因為20萬劑其實量相對還是沒那麼足夠所以他是優先提供長照跟安養機構65歲以上的長者來接種我想最重要就是希望能夠減少他在內部擴散或者是對長者尤其是如果是在長照機構相對他的風險又是更高"},{"start":10096.6,"end":10121.853,"text":"所以這是一個很好的方向那如果可行的話將來也可以希望考慮能夠強化高風險還有重大傷病的這些都能夠有機會來做加強性公費疫苗的施打那我們期待這部分我們可以持續的來努力好那謝謝次長那先次長先請回座我來請教一下我們江署長有關你這個藥品無止化這個跨部會研商的部分謝謝次長"},{"start":10126.604,"end":10142.416,"text":"委員好是署長我想大家都很關心尤其您就任以後希望能夠讓整體在不管醫藥尤其是藥的這些處理的部分可以更進一步的去得到好的一個正向的發展"},{"start":10142.916,"end":10164.535,"text":"那尤其是有關於這個考慮到整個環境保護跟這個資源的永續所以希望能夠針對這個無紙化尤其是仿單的無紙化能夠開始來推動也能夠迅速的去完成這一項的這個政策那我們也了解其實包括早上這個廖偉祥委員也有提到"},{"start":10165.015,"end":10183.949,"text":"在這個推動過程裡面我們還是有一些需要再進一步處理的地方包括說五指化將來會不會有這個四大面向的影響第一個就是用藥資訊這個讀取會不會受限尤其有一些身心障礙或高齡者他在這個方面會不會因為有這樣的這個"},{"start":10184.89,"end":10200.481,"text":"影響而造成他對用藥資訊無法掌握的非常清楚那第二個就是會有數位落差的問題大家都很清楚尤其是偏向的網路普及性或者是數位產品普及度在不同的這個階層可能會有這樣的問題"},{"start":10201.562,"end":10220.221,"text":"那第三個就是如果說訪單帶回去慢慢研讀那相對來講即使我們藥師在做服務的時候也會口頭說明可是就很擔心他的完整度不夠那如果把這個屋主要取消當然我們有其他的代替可是會不會增加這個工作的負擔"},{"start":10220.962,"end":10248.238,"text":"那最後當然就是無紙化意思就是那現在在印刷那些紙可能這個廠家的這些營業啦或者是服務面向可能會受到影響所以這個配套措施如何就非常的重要那我們瞭解以後也跟陳佩玉委員也跟我們辦公室一起請跟署長一起來討論相關如何能夠把配套措施可以做得更好"},{"start":10248.718,"end":10271.931,"text":"那這部分不知道目前署長有沒有進一步的規劃謝謝委員的垂詢有關於仿單電子化的部分當然我們希望所謂的elaboring能夠推展可是推展的前提我們現在到年底前是所謂的電子結構化的部分先完成結構化因為結構化之後才能往後一步的所謂的電子化邁進"},{"start":10273.492,"end":10297.47,"text":"我們現在結構化裡面是非常完整的仿丹但是就臨床的用藥其實我們拿到這藥的時候醫師的處方接下來就是藥師的調劑跟藥師用藥的指導所以這些訊息不單單是在仿丹裡面可以獲得在指導以及調劑的過程中也可以達到一定的功效就像我們拿到藥袋的時候會有特別的說明"},{"start":10298.07,"end":10325.056,"text":"所以特別提到的剛才提到的用藥資訊的讀取會不會不利身心障礙者所以我們在溝通的場次裡面其實有對於不同的弱勢團體以及聽障 視障等等的所以我們的規劃裡面甚至是多語言的能夠讓他們聽得到能夠去了解或者是閱讀出來除了這以外數位落差的確是我們去考量的一個部分在這個過程當中我們在想說如何去萃取出"},{"start":10325.916,"end":10343.17,"text":"所謂的完整訪單裡面進一步能夠簡化的讓民眾可以了解這是我們的規劃努力的方向之一那我們了解到的是如果完全訪單沒有了對於藥盒裡面是沒有進一步內容而變成所謂QR Code的部分那如果變成"},{"start":10344.091,"end":10366.889,"text":"基層的藥師 藥事人員要重新去把它抓出來去做這件事情我們也的確發現它的困難性是有所以我們目前持續在溝通還沒有特別的定案的部分我想這部分需要更多的時間去了解因為在結構化的部分其實是在先期的做到後面的完全確實的實施的過程當中其實署內是在研議當中"},{"start":10367.87,"end":10391.296,"text":"那這個過程中我們特別對職業印刷業我們也跟他們做溝通我們了解整體的確他們是相對弱勢那以現在的藥品的訪單造成他們的困擾也是極大的好 謝謝其實我們這次的演繹裡面也希望能夠在一定期程裡面先採行雙軌制希望能夠有機會把紙本還有這個電子結構的內容同步提供"},{"start":10391.809,"end":10419.213,"text":"那另外也希望能夠再邀集更多的利害關係人跟團體來溝通政策所以最後其實也希望能夠針對產業升級的部分跟經濟部共同研商那有關無紙化跟環境保護之間的關聯目標等等也能夠有機會跟環境部共同來討論所以希望針對這樣的議題署長可以跟所有相關的部會都能夠繼續共同來努力當然我想"},{"start":10419.833,"end":10447.3,"text":"最重要的應該就是讓我們這些用藥是安全的那所有需要用藥不管是在哪一個層級哪一個範圍都能夠讓這個用藥的安全達到他該有的目標那就麻煩署長繼續努力謝謝委員我們一定以病人安全為前提之下做跨部會的溝通謝謝署長謝謝主席謝謝王振旭委員我們接下來請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":10453.914,"end":10464.861,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席 有請次長次長上台前我還是要提醒署長那橄欖油佔我們國內消費者使用的使用的比例是非常高"},{"start":10466.696,"end":10484.665,"text":"然後這事情要處理好我剛剛會特別要求說希望一個月那當然次長跟署長是希望兩個月嘛我還是建議可能要更積極的因應因為現在連一些書士都都是很習慣去使用這個橄欖油所以這個部分我還是再度提醒不要造成署長一來的"},{"start":10486.105,"end":10511.716,"text":"這一個大風暴對整個實案的問題會很大的一個挑戰好不好 蘇珀你先請回沒關係不過這個事情好像跟你也有關係上個禮拜15日台灣跟美國的關稅已經這個貿易已經達成了重大攻勢台灣蘇美的商品關稅稅率降到15%然後不疊加那更重要的是其中美國將對學民藥"},{"start":10513.737,"end":10532.382,"text":"學名藥的原料非吉林組件及稀缺的自然資源等項目實施零趴的互惠關稅所以對台灣的醫藥發展絕對是重磅消息也許我們隔天就看到製藥界這樣的一個發表聲明雖然我國蘇美藥品項目不多"},{"start":10532.902,"end":10560.748,"text":"但美國對臺的零關稅對學民藥的發展仍然是利多有助於外銷市場的多元化所以這個報導我想就不再贅述了它最主要還是希望呼籲應該趕快組國家隊來搶攻美國的市場所以過去我們都知道全球的原料藥的供應都是來自中國、印度兩大國高度的把持當然這次的臺美的學民藥還是這個學民藥的原料"},{"start":10562.072,"end":10590.486,"text":"這樣的一個互惠關稅對台灣的原料藥品的市場策略無疑是鼓吹搶攻的一個浩角所以因此台灣一定要把握這次機會我想市長應該可以認同吧非常認同你跟部長一個應該就是台灣藥的國家隊的隊長跟副隊長對不對不敢啦 我們還有經濟部要一起努力對啊 經濟部也要一起努力你還坐下來你就不太努力了 OK 好"},{"start":10591.75,"end":10618.637,"text":"所以這個我想要迅速盤點資源你一定整個市場策略然後我們要把握這一次的機會讓台灣要能在美國達穩根基 展望全球所以市場才特別提到經濟部也是要一起來我想這個是毋庸置疑其實橄欖油跟經濟部也有關係這個大家都非常清楚那我要這邊具體另外再提出一個建議副市長你先請回這就沒你的工作了 不好意思未來 未來可能就會了"},{"start":10620.868,"end":10639.905,"text":"我要在這邊具體提出建議現在在司法法治委員會已經在審查這個組織法就是要把國家的中醫藥研究所變成這個國家中醫研究院把藥已經拿掉我也不曉得什麼原因然後他們去年3月的時候有跟嘉義市政府有簽訂一個MOU這我們的蘇司長"},{"start":10642.347,"end":10659.764,"text":"要在中台灣建立一個中藥草的研發廊帶研發廊帶然後我覺得這樣量能好像不夠尤其如果你現在台美關稅可以迎來如此重大的利多我們都對這個中藥的原料的投注一定要相對"},{"start":10660.905,"end":10682.638,"text":"相對應的擴大對不對才有機會在美國市場國際市場長期把持著中國印度來競爭然後新冠當時的新冠那個會員的時候對不對我們的藥中藥來講打響這樣的一個知名度確實有一定的這樣一個療效所以我們既然要建立這個中藥草的這個狼帶應該是要擴大所以從彰化"},{"start":10687.458,"end":10702.404,"text":"如果嘉義嘛從北延伸是雲林彰化從南延伸是不是還可以到什麼地方我不曉得那這個一定要達到某種程度的一個擴大了一個規模所謂的經濟規模嘛那才有好過嘛不過他是講研發啦他還是把研發"},{"start":10703.504,"end":10720.422,"text":"研發廊帶這有點奇怪台灣應該有很多的在本草幹木裡面台灣很多的水質土壤空氣還有他的海拔其實是種的出來的怎麼過去我們好像這一塊裡面的這個規模一直沒辦法擴大"},{"start":10721.082,"end":10748.89,"text":"我不曉得是什麼原因然後他現在又叫做叫做研發中藥草的研發狼帶還處在研發的階段那我就覺得很很不夠成熟照理講不應該是這個樣子的所以如果次長你來你來你來你來Handle這事情我覺得才可以可能有辦法讓這個速度可以更加的的快速所以我我是這邊距離這個建立部長建立次長啦你應該叫部長來看"},{"start":10750.53,"end":10774.401,"text":"中藥草種植的產業鏈台灣也可以跟台灣的整個精緻的農業做整體這樣的一個鏈結我們像在我們雲林很多的農漁牧也是台灣的糧倉然後農作物也好 漁牧的產業也好都可以透過生物的技術萃取精華及製藥的相關的原料"},{"start":10775.061,"end":10802.4,"text":"所以如果可以未來搭配中藥的這個狼帶我覺得應該可以相烏相承那今日審查藥事法就是要因應新冠疫情以來原料藥的供應不穩且藥品需求上揚導致市場傳出國內的藥品供應短缺的問題所以我希望透過這次修法我想我們更應該可以來強化自己的製藥跟生產的這個能力所以也在這邊希望我這樣建議"},{"start":10803.18,"end":10827.01,"text":"市長能不能在一個月內可以把這樣的一個中藥的狼帶可以擴大來做相關的一些評估 可以吧先跟委員報告 委員剛剛所提醒的都非常 我們都非常的能夠了解也非常肯定 因為其實我們當然在114年有在雲林這邊我們有鼓勵優質中藥的種植那有補助一些相關的特定的藥材"},{"start":10828.991,"end":10844.211,"text":"因為我們在評估我們的藥品供應韌性的時候不是只有西藥事實上中藥材的部分因為過去幾乎多數都仰賴中國那一小部分也仰賴可能馬來西亞或印度所以我們也我自己雖然這不是我業館但是我跟中醫藥師還有跟業館的裝置還有甚至包含屢次我們都討論過就是說我們"},{"start":10846.354,"end":10871.056,"text":"台湾尤其是在不论是东部或西部我们都有一些地方是非常优质的种植的产地所以说如果我们从上方我们包含的中医药师这边认为有潜力或者是我们国内有大量需求的这些中药材往下去辅导协助我们这部分也跟农业部有讨论过就是说有一些优质的土壤或者是农场来协助他们辅导来种植这边我们事实上要有引导"},{"start":10871.616,"end":10886.453,"text":"因為中醫藥師知道哪些藥品有潛力哪些藥品有這個需求而且我們國內種的品質搞不好比其他國家更好那這邊來協助跟引導才有辦法長出這個狼袋來我用這樣形容啦 市長能不能認同啦台灣人對中藥其實也是覺得比較好啦比較好意思是說它比較溫和啦"},{"start":10890.177,"end":10894.262,"text":"大家依賴很重的啦 不會覺得有啦還有我們食補藥補都有啦對啦 但是他比較溫和但是也比較慢啦 比較慢就對了但是政府針對中醫號槽的這個不管是專區 不管是人大 不能太慢啦是 好他想要溫和 其實"},{"start":10906.577,"end":10919.987,"text":"中國自己現在連他們自己這樣的種植的中藥草都不夠供給他們自己國內的使用他們也要靠進口了而且他們的品質跟裡面的一些農藥等重金屬事實上是有一點疑慮的"},{"start":10921.748,"end":10949.205,"text":"我們國內這邊包含 也跟委員報告就是我們包含東部那邊之前包含慈濟的院長跟我們報告過他們那邊有一些是很不錯的產地那國內這邊就是我們剛剛所說的雲嘉南彰化雲嘉南這邊事實上有一些地方他們之前的研究都認為說在那邊種植某一些藥材它的那個濃度或活性是非常好的那這邊我們會持續跟中醫藥師來研議那如果市市藥署能協助也一起協助因為時間的關係 這樣就忙完一個月啦我們不能太慢啦 講快一點 好不好好 這邊我們藥效加速"},{"start":10950.786,"end":10971.722,"text":"我最後一題是這樣為了治療糖尿病研發的長臂樹因為能抑制食慾現在已經被當作這個減重的聖品導致亂象重生那過去是花生減為民眾跟糖尿病患在搶藥2021年開始持續花生這個缺藥控貨的問題直到去年9月食藥署才公告恢復正常供應"},{"start":10972.423,"end":10995.965,"text":"然後並強調持續請藥廠優先供應藥品給治療糖尿病醫療機構以及調製藥品慢性蟲彎腺的藥局確保藥品優先於糖尿病患這樣的呼籲到底有沒有效 這第一件事情第二件事情 現實是整個說說真的市場是越來越大亂象真的也是越來越多如果不再即時介入 一定會再出問題我提供一個報導給"},{"start":10997.446,"end":11012.718,"text":"我們市長跟署長看一下這個內容我就不再追溯了還有組團的 還有淘寶的還有其他你自己看委員你覺得這個我們有注意對 有注意這個是去年年底的時候還是這樣"},{"start":11013.559,"end":11036.964,"text":"那九月我們才說食藥水災公告恢復正常供應那去年年底就變成有這樣的亂象持續到現在應該不間斷了然後可以發現現在民眾是無所不用其極在打針彼此見面第一句話說 你有煮嗎 你煮得不錯喔你如果炒這麼多 你是煮多少 你一隻要多少你一隻煮多少"},{"start":11040.305,"end":11064.135,"text":"我在這一個月內在立法院聽到這樣的聲音真的實在是平衡到你難以想像了或許我們這種體格比較不會不需要但是就經常會聽到你就知道這個回胖症也蠻嚴重的所以才很多的這有回胖症的朋友真的很需要這樣的一個受挫症的注射但是"},{"start":11065.123,"end":11086.712,"text":"如果正規的撿回門診所開的處方目前知會是從價格8000到3萬不等嘛坦白講他算是昂貴的一個治療費用了然後台灣另一回放針的方針目前著重於回放預防如果根據美國的英國的研究BMI大於40的時候在10年內可以減重至正常體重的病患每年約只有千分之一啦"},{"start":11089.214,"end":11103.912,"text":"回棒症的後果是什麼如果1966年到1972年美國癌症協會就指出回棒症會增加罹患子宮頸癌 胃癌 膽囊癌 直腸癌腎癌 乳癌的機會如果體重都超過這個理想的40%那可能"},{"start":11104.913,"end":11117.482,"text":"男性會增加33%的這個罹癌的機會女性會增加到55%所以WHO也才會去公布13種跟回放相關的這個癌症所以治療糖尿病的長臂數變成減肥聖品也證明這兩者之間其實有相關連性"},{"start":11121.204,"end":11148.486,"text":"正相關的靈性所以還有其他心血管三高等慢性病都跟肥胖症有關所以如果我們發現這個肥胖持續的發生也就是加重健保的負擔與支出這個我想你們都非常清楚委員這邊跟委員報告如果是像剛剛委員提到BMI大於40或者是他明確是已經是符合我們講肥胖症的診斷的話事實上這邊是給藥indication是沒有問題的那健保這邊其實也相關的幾乎是OK的"},{"start":11148.886,"end":11164.614,"text":"但是現在在市面上看到所以說這個部分為什麼我們之前要控貨是因為我們要控給真正符合適應症必須醫師診斷需要用藥而且符合用藥指引的這是第一塊那第二塊現在市面上看到的亂象其實多數它都是其實就是不符合我們剛剛所說藥品"},{"start":11166.015,"end":11191.63,"text":"使用適應症的這一群人那他在我們叫off-level use他非適應症的這一群那非適應症居民當然我們再次強調目前我們在查查沒有處方販售處方藥的這個部分因為他包含了他違反藥師法跟醫師法所以這個部分我們有查到或者地方衛生局他們有查的話他如果沒有適應症沒有經過醫師處方自行買藥的話這個部分事實上是違法的那另外一個部分就是說當然在如果是醫師這邊開出來的處方"},{"start":11193.211,"end":11207.667,"text":"那给药他有如果不符合适应症他是适应症之外使用的话我们当然现在还是希望说第一个我们还是持续来宣导用药因为像委员提到的没有经过医师诊断然后他自己去买药第一他到底是不是他很有可能是伪药可能是劣药"},{"start":11208.628,"end":11231.3,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個部分沒有在醫師指導之下藥師指導之下給予藥品的使用這個是非常危險的行為那這個也會造成後續的一些傷害所以還是要強調就是說這個藥品目前認為非常有潛力那剛剛委員所引述的相關的文獻也是一樣它在於符合適應症十分嚴重的病態肥胖的病人他是真的有治療效果我們也希望也肯定他能夠持續在這邊治療但是"},{"start":11231.92,"end":11260.729,"text":"如果單純只是為了自己要去改變外貌甚至我們看到有些BMI已經很低那醫師還持續給藥的這個我們認為是不符合的也認為不但不鼓勵而且我們認為不可以這樣子做好 主席那個超過時間都是次長講的不是我 謝謝委員給我這個機會對 我還是要回應一下我們現在的這個減肥的門診基本上都還是智慧啦 對不對我覺得這個也是國家針對減肥政策的問題所在"},{"start":11261.989,"end":11281.979,"text":"這個我們必須要大大的檢討我們甚至於之前跟部長已經討論到對身心障礙者的減肥有其必要的趕快加緊的腳步來去做相關的一些因應所以林林總統加起來我還是希望市長重視這個事情是不是在最短時間如果參照英國他們有10年健康計畫所以賴總統在講的健康台灣"},{"start":11283.099,"end":11311.307,"text":"沒有把這一塊囊塊症囊塊症裡面就有問題了對不對健康台灣888裡面其實我們第一個8是找到那80%第二個8就是行為介入我們還是認為雖然我們自己是醫界而且我們也知道有藥品但是我們還是希望多數的民眾可以從健康行為促進行為改變行為介入先來做因為很多的人很多的人他事實上是還沒有到需要用到藥品來協助他減重那需要藥品減重事實上已經到了很多病態的情況"},{"start":11311.667,"end":11341.145,"text":"我知道所以剛剛我跟你講連英國都覺得這樣的處理方式當然我們的模式可能跟他不盡相同不過只有親吻之一那你講的888的模式如果一開始執行我們半年來做一個追蹤你覺得可以達到什麼樣的一個效益然後那個會不會超越過英國這麼少的這樣的一個比例這個我們當然是可以來檢討但是現在我們看到亂象就這樣通通沒有在想到所謂的888政策反而是受挫增持最好"},{"start":11342.386,"end":11358.966,"text":"然後取得管道是非常的多元而且非常的凌亂很多都是錯誤或是非法管道所以我是希望市長可以具體的回應委員會是不是在一樣在一個月時間大力的來做相關的一些盤整調查甚至要做相關的一些整頓"},{"start":11359.987,"end":11377.866,"text":"一個月之內我們把一些相關目前的了解還有未來的規劃給委員會一個報告最後我還是希望我們台灣跨出第一步啦正式回報問題已經有了啦但是還是嚴厲相關的健保的門診治療讓回報患者勇氣的尋求正規的醫療協助然後而且在合理的負擔範圍可以吧"},{"start":11378.444,"end":11391.715,"text":"委員其實現在如果是符合這個藥品使用的病人事實上都在健保這邊都會給予那其實現在看到亂象多數人這種他事實上我們現在看到我們更擔心跟委員報告我真的更擔心的事情是BMI只有18還用藥"},{"start":11395.678,"end":11420.14,"text":"這個是非常危險的行為這是很不合理的行為所以事實上我們現在更擔心的那一塊就是他不符合適應症符合適應症健保這邊給予支持給予協助治療這個部分我們絕對支持但是很多現在我們看到的事情是不符合適應症他BMI22是根本就不需要用藥根本就不該用藥這塊是我們現在比較關注的部分所以你們去年9月說已經恢復整個這樣的一個公告供應正常但是到底供應給誰"},{"start":11421.946,"end":11449.144,"text":"你的公益正常是指什麼公益正常是指他符合適應症必須用藥的民眾病人而不是自己覺得想要更瘦一點的人但是我剛剛所提供的相關的訊息基本上應該不是這樣還有私底下的一些的作為我們也會接下來我自己會召集相關學協會因為這個部分當然以糖尿病專業或內分泌這邊他們有相關的指引這個部分沒有問題但是事實上目前很多用藥的部分是沒有遵照指引的那我們也希望說專業學協會這邊要對於非"},{"start":11452.126,"end":11480.76,"text":"符合適應證 或者是過度濫用的部分要有一些態度下面的委員已經對我不是單單了OK 好 一個月內啦 好不好大力的整頓這件事情 好 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請羅廷威委員質詢好 有請次長還有署長 食藥署次長跟署長"},{"start":11481.707,"end":11506.959,"text":"劉委員我沒有虎視眈眈我只希望召委比照辦理喔 謝謝等一下召委就還他了希望他有聽到對不起要不要休息啊趕快抽回來好 謝謝次長今天院版的要事法跟這個要害救濟法請問次長你知道這個版本是怎麼來的嗎"},{"start":11508.556,"end":11523.511,"text":"這個版本其實我們去年開始因為相關的一些法規模糊或者是沒有明確所以我們開始做研議另外還就包含委員之前所關心到的我們如果是專案進口的藥品那對於民眾這邊他沒有辦法符合要害救濟那這塊我們也謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":11524.682,"end":11544.416,"text":"市長今天就直接切入重點我想2024年我們發生了生理食鹽水這樣子輸出液的一個問題產製不足我們只好向國外進口當時我在整個院會的質詢也跟這個邱部長特別提醒無法求償只能用所謂的這個消費者保護法"},{"start":11547.765,"end":11570.266,"text":"沒有法源依據所以應該這些進口的輸液就是禁藥那今天藥事法跟整個藥害救濟的修法背景不是衛福部今天寫的一個報告這麼簡單我覺得內部的報告就是避重就輕那我很高興剛剛次長有提出我所提到的前因那現在呢我們希望"},{"start":11571.127,"end":11591.015,"text":"要把這個部分再一次的好好講清楚說明白不要認為全民的記憶會被抹去也不要認為立法委員跟所有的全民會被當成盤子很好騙喔那當時次長也有在臉書回應藥事法55條就是零次您當時臉書回應而來的55條在當時次長聲稱輸入的大型輸出液是樣品"},{"start":11598.615,"end":11609.111,"text":"依據藥事法55條是不得出售那為何健保署當時還付款呢健保署江署長當時你還不是署長"},{"start":11610.543,"end":11632.381,"text":"你是倒楣的戴罪羔羊這個事情跟你無關但是如果當時我沒有揭開這樣子的一個問題今天的院版修法的版本還會不會存在我不知道但是今天審查藥事法有12案 藥害救濟法有10案許多委員寫的版本都跟院版差不多只有我"},{"start":11633.772,"end":11656.777,"text":"就我們兩個人的版本不太一樣我們來好好的討論一下首先藥事法第55條次長請問你有沒有看到我藥事法第55條的提案原由我今天應該有說明吧您應該都很清楚當時衛生福利部113年9月11日有給我這樣子的一個相關公文我想原則啊"},{"start":11657.617,"end":11683.064,"text":"我們都看到了有關是否涉及出售的行為原則涉及其費用是否超出藥品的相關製造及供應成本費用而定但是看了今天的書面報告衛福部沒有承認錯誤還在硬拗我依照衛福部給我的公文來修法一字不漏地寫在法條上請問一下是衛福部自己打臉自己喔"},{"start":11684.181,"end":11711.166,"text":"報告委員其實我們藥品的核價本來就要這個跟委員報告謝謝委員支持我們之前那時候因為有公共衛生事件所以有藥品的這個供應韌性那第二個部分就是說在當時的藥品核價雖然是專案進口但是這個專案進口的核價還是要經過相關的共理會決議同意所以這個核價有相關的標準那也不是我們自己衛福部自己決定的那這個過程中有一相關的法規去做調整當然我知道但是今天我們就很清楚嘛看這個公文這公文誰發給我的"},{"start":11712.766,"end":11731.909,"text":"這是答覆立法委員的正式公文這中間要有多少的公務人員合張怎麼可以糊弄立法院現在怎麼辦我想問一下 報告委員這邊容我一點點的回覆就是委員其實在第55條裡面提出的修正案特別提出出售行為 贈品等等"},{"start":11732.649,"end":11754.476,"text":"因為這樣的一個內涵在這一次我們整體修法裡面去希望能夠更完整的時候我們把它放在二七之三條裡面就把它涵蓋過去所以當初我們引用這個部分其實有一些精進的地方的確是有精進的地方我承認沒關係我支持你願意精進的一個態度但是我今天想問的是請問一下次長"},{"start":11755.509,"end":11771.463,"text":"我們要不要承認錯誤第一 如果你不承認錯誤那今天的修法就不用啟動了嘛因為你對過去的法律解釋都沒有錯誤那今天幹嘛還要修法呢第二 今天的修法還提出了願版就是因為違法的行為在前面"},{"start":11772.724,"end":11798.733,"text":"現在修法是補正前面的錯誤那你前面的錯誤要不要先跟全國人民道歉不是跟我因為整個用到這個所謂的要害賠償是有可能是當事者是全民第三當初你們還用類推試用我永遠無法忘記竟然可以用類推試用那我想問一下大家今天在座的各位"},{"start":11799.953,"end":11821.386,"text":"邱部長說可以類推私用 那今天我們幹嘛修法就繼續類推私用就好啦所以衛福部到底要不要跟全民道歉如果不道歉我希望麻煩你把進口輸液的那些錢還回國庫我四點具體的要求一 請具體的跟國人道歉"},{"start":11822.605,"end":11837.071,"text":"第二依據食藥署的回函修法請衛福部回函給我更正前面前函的一個論述第三我要求對類推適用的說明要做更正"},{"start":11838.257,"end":11858.29,"text":"第四因為書面報告已經公開的在立法院的網站上所以我今天所有我希望今天的書面報告第五頁第二項要求重寫重新送到立法院請問一下次長可以嗎好先跟委員報告謝謝委員也支持我們接下來在法律上面能夠更明確的去做一些文字上的處理"},{"start":11858.53,"end":11885.228,"text":"也跟委員接著說當然委員要求我們對於我們在2024年5月份當時的整個書役短缺後續的一些程序法規上面不明確的部分這個部分我們真的就是道歉很抱歉當時不論是在整個書役處理上面相關的流程上面還有後來的相關的法規援引上面因為過去的很多法源的不足那當時用這個方式來做處理緊急來供應國內在重要的藥品必要藥品上面的這個供應"},{"start":11886.048,"end":11903.564,"text":"我們這個部分真的誠摯的跟大家抱歉因為其實當時一整年不論是藥廠不論是藥商或者是所有第一線臨床人員我們大家都非常的辛苦那這邊也再一次的為了這整件事情來跟大家做抱歉那這也是為什麼在各位委員的指導之下那我們這次提出來相關的修法法案因為其實"},{"start":11904.525,"end":11931.466,"text":"必須跟委員說明就是說在這個第55條或者是第27條這一邊過去長期以來不單純只是這一次生理鹹水所遇到這個問題過去長期以來有相關的一些藥品都有遇到類似的狀況原因不一那所以也是因為這個原因我們全面的去盤整在國內藥品的供應上面來講必須要有更明確的法源跟更明確的法律依據那所以這一次我們才在文字上面還有相關條文上面做一個比較明確的處理以上跟委員報告"},{"start":11932.647,"end":11959.148,"text":"謝謝次長我想我要跟大家講的是我們愛真理但我們更愛全民健康今天不是爭一口氣啊是為人民正當的權益所以今天我們希望衛福部面對問題才能夠解決問題很高興次長有這樣子的一個態度承擔重任並且把這些我們剛剛所提到的一個問題啊我們來加以修正次長您可以先請回了謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11961.149,"end":11987.811,"text":"接下來我想請問一下署長署長我想跟您探討一個最近我們所有的家長都非常的擔憂非常的驚訝就是我們在食藥署最近有這個抽驗所謂的孩童在食用海苔的部分有驗出了重金屬我們非常非常的憤慨我也必須告訴你我是受害者我也是受害者的家長"},{"start":11988.857,"end":12005.085,"text":"那我自己有吃啊小孩子吃就跟著吃嘛那我相信更多的家長都有吃但是有週刊爆料在整個行政院消保進入去調查的時候是去年5月抽驗到了去年12月"},{"start":12005.945,"end":12031.117,"text":"才公佈這過程冗長食藥署到底在整個抽驗的過程當中有沒有及時的回饋有沒有及時的去阻斷這些供貨我們很擔憂啊所以整個報導也講出啦有些海苔已經賣到缺貨那這怎麼辦都吃下肚啦所以這個問題你能不能回答我你們在時去上是不是應該精進"},{"start":12032.709,"end":12061.323,"text":"報告委員有關於這個起始點是在行政院消保處針對關心嬰幼兒的食品裡面重金屬含量所以抽檢的過程中抽了國內有一家海苔商海苔的它特別標示裡面比較看起來比較偏向是在嬰幼兒的食用所以在針對海苔或者海藻類的分的管理我先簡單的說明一般的海藻類的是1ppm"},{"start":12062.463,"end":12085.913,"text":"而且要覆水對於嬰幼兒非常非常嚴格的副食品的話是定在0.05千格格的部分是0.04ppm所以這個就是定的差了就是將近有100倍20倍加上覆水之後就有100倍這個有趣的地方就是12月份被提出來是之前其實我們針對"},{"start":12087.173,"end":12110.188,"text":"消保署的提醒我們我們就請衛生局前去做了把這個貨能夠下架避免繼續的暴露這件事先做那12月份之後呢應該是一些業者或者是提供了一些訊息覺得這個國內會不及格進口的應該也會不及格所以就去驗了七種的確驗了七種之後本署也進一步的去檢驗確立了這件事情"},{"start":12110.868,"end":12126.13,"text":"那我們就忽然間想了一件事情這件事情吃了亞洲地區其實日韓都吃可從來都沒有提到這件議題所以我們進一步去研議研議的時候發現一件事情對於嬰幼兒的海苔這件事情我們應該是放在"},{"start":12127.151,"end":12148.832,"text":"副食品的管理還是它只是一個簡單的點心吃的是一點點而已它這個規格是就會不一樣但是我們以重研來去面對這件事情我認為應該重研是的 所以目前我們採取重研所以進一步我們要去研議那意思其實有一點點就對於海苔這一項食品"},{"start":12150.069,"end":12173.162,"text":"對於嬰幼兒就是完全阻斷因為牠是海洋 會濃縮 牠有特殊性全世界目前我們沒有看到其他國家揭露這件事情的狀況但是這件事情在我們台灣首先認識 發生我覺得還是應該從嚴的去看但是後續待使我們監管的部分我們持續在眼裡因為整整意思就是說這項產品在嬰幼兒是絕原體的"},{"start":12173.962,"end":12189.591,"text":"因為他的食品的特殊性好 蘇長我們都知道很重要啦因為你剛剛講很久趙偉站起來是因為他講很久不是我啊所以要給我一點時間啦但我還是希望具體的一個要求啦第一 最嚴格的角度去看待"},{"start":12190.191,"end":12213.328,"text":"第二 擴大相關的孩童食用不管是零食或附屬品的檢驗進口因為這些問題我相信進口商應該就是不知道不了解不知道我們的法規這麼嚴苛所以導致進口這樣的問題甚至有的人是知道還故意進口這些都是我們要強力阻斷的所以我希望擴大檢驗這部分請問署長可以承諾我嗎"},{"start":12214.228,"end":12236.076,"text":"跟委員這邊報告我們針對相關的進口的部分目前是沒有分裂的號列在嬰幼兒跟所謂的一般的食品所以我們現在是用關鍵字去把它萃取出來做檢驗跟在阻斷在邊境目前我們持續在做好這個部分你一定要承諾好謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員發言接下來請圖全琦委員發言"},{"start":12244.488,"end":12255.494,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那先請我們食藥署署長食藥署江署長委員好"},{"start":12256.226,"end":12282.131,"text":"好 署長那就剛好延續剛剛我們羅廷偉委員講的我們那個針對嬰幼兒食品海苔部分這個問題那我們看我們衛福部我們針對嬰幼兒食品海苔這部分在2025年5月我們就去抽驗那我們看它的報告出入時間是在7月2025年7月那公布報告的時間是在2025年的12月15號"},{"start":12284.491,"end":12305.428,"text":"那這大概有半年的時間那為什麼這報告出入之後已經知道之後要半年之後才公佈說這個食品它的重金屬是超標的這邊跟委員說明一下因為這個部分是在行政院小寶處的公告但是我們被複製這件事情的時候其實我們在"},{"start":12306.869,"end":12333.551,"text":"衛生局協同食藥署這邊就已經去把這項產品其實要求下架了所以在這個下架之前那個單一產品我們已經有做到下架這件事情什麼時候下架這個就是他們複製我印象在5月檢查之後後續7月左右我們其實知道的時候我們就做了進一步的去對單一的產品因為檢查不準確所以7月就下架對 那個確確的時間那為什麼要到12月才公佈"},{"start":12334.752,"end":12363.861,"text":"這個公佈的部分其實是在小寶處的公佈大概不在本署的公佈那我們已經把它給阻斷了這個購買的一個通路了所以這個可能要檢討一下不然你看還有半年的空窗期就像剛剛羅庭委員他說他也是受害者的家長但是我在這之前他知道這個食品是重心鎖超標就算他買回去他可以不要給小孩子吃可是你到12月才公佈所以這段時間他就把它吃完了"},{"start":12364.581,"end":12383.46,"text":"就这个部分我们其实在先前的时候我们先做了阻断已经在让它在市场已经下市了已经做了我觉得这部分真的要检讨一下居然有半年的空窗期都已经知道超标只有到半年以后才公布这让多少婴幼儿又去吃下这重金属超标违规的食品"},{"start":12385.462,"end":12399.994,"text":"還有我再請問一下那針對我們嬰幼兒海苔食品它這個驗出重金屬超標那據我們了解它如果是用一般食品進口的話有可能沒有超標對不對"},{"start":12401.514,"end":12428.133,"text":"報告委員因為現在沒有特別針對他們的耗列而且第二件事情是海苔我們可以想像這個海苔在使用的過程當中其實跟我們一般的小朋友的副食品副食品 譬如說我們現在長大的粥然後我們想要的果泥等等副食品其實長的其實就是不一樣但是我們從嚴的目前是這樣子的管理如果我剛才提到如果我們從嚴的這樣子管理大概都會不及格"},{"start":12428.453,"end":12450.7,"text":"那我請問一下嬰幼兒食品跟一般食品到底有沒有區分嬰幼兒食品裡面我們針對只要列在嬰幼兒三歲以下都是用嬰幼兒食品副食品來管理但是假如它是點心它不是副食品它就不會是落在嬰幼兒的副食品的規格所以這個規格管理的過程當中我們認為有必須要重新去"},{"start":12452,"end":12475.592,"text":"討論跟思考的地方目前我們採取的是就是重研下架然後呢接下來呢我們其實也會提到過年到了嘛那個海苔其實會造成另外一個部分它到底是副食品還是簡單的點心而已那現在像這個海苔嬰幼兒食品跟一般食品它那個重金屬的標準到底有沒有一樣"},{"start":12476.212,"end":12505.011,"text":"不一樣只要是嬰幼兒就是非常非常嚴格對啊 所以一般食品所以我剛剛有講如果它是嬰幼兒食品的海苔它可能超標但是如果它是一般食品有可能它是沒有超標的對 一般的食品裡面我們去算過的話因為差了將近100到200倍對啊所以在一般民眾裡面3歲以上的等等非嬰幼兒它其實是可以接受的那在我們食品相關法規像這個海苔嬰幼兒食品跟一般食品"},{"start":12505.791,"end":12512.028,"text":"那我們再怎麼區分 看得出來嗎他怎麼去區分一般食品跟應用食品"},{"start":12512.635,"end":12539.057,"text":"報告委員因為全世界針對這議題我們最近收集的資訊大概是跟委員說明如果你一定要給嬰幼兒的你自己要標示那是給嬰幼兒的如果你有更高的所謂價位等等的取向或者爭取你就必須要符合嬰幼兒但是一般的食品不是在副食品的部分如果它沒有標示的話其實它是採取的是他們尊重消費者的使用的原則"},{"start":12539.818,"end":12559.937,"text":"那因为它摄取的量对婴幼儿来讲其实它不是在当副食品在吃副食品是一个转换类似我们本来喝奶的转换成为正常的大人的食物里面的这过程吃的量其实是高的那消费者如何区分一般食品跟婴幼儿食品"},{"start":12560.177,"end":12575.631,"text":"報告委員所以我們現在進一步的研議如果給嬰幼兒的你要正面標示你要強調給嬰幼兒你就必須要標示所以這是我們努力的方向所以沒有標示的話就是當一般食品是的那有沒有給嬰幼兒使用他沒有標註嬰幼兒的"},{"start":12577.234,"end":12598.486,"text":"現在我們要求的是希望能夠走向要給嬰幼兒的你就必須正面的表列加強標示在上面這是我們要去努力我覺得這部分真的要加強不然你看我們重點嬰幼兒因為嬰幼兒他本身身體器官絕對是比成人還脆弱所以我們對於重金屬跟這些"},{"start":12599.748,"end":12615.599,"text":"針梅菌數 針梅毒素這一部分我們的要求標準一定是比較高的是的那所以這一部分你一定要標示清楚啊那針對這一部分我們看我們難道沒有辦法向經濟部標檢局說針對玩具還有"},{"start":12619.361,"end":12644.367,"text":"兒童用品它有一個檢驗的標準而且有一個安全的規章甚至很明確看得到就是給兒童來使用難道我們這部分沒有辦法做嗎對 所以委員這邊的提醒也是我們在看國際在管理這件事情的時候陸陸續續看到國外有這樣子舉個例子韓國針對嬰幼兒的食品他們從今年1月1號開始去年的1月1號開始"},{"start":12645.347,"end":12664.307,"text":"才有去加强要求这样子标示的所以我们想说这也是一个重要的议题我们会持续的进进跟研议的所以我说我们经济部标准局都可以这样去做我相信我们卫福部食药署应该也做得到那是不是针对这部分一个月内可以回复我们研议后的做法"},{"start":12666.151,"end":12691.44,"text":"容我跟委員說因為食品這個部分其實影響的部分相對是比較大容我們多一點點時間我們在三個月內能夠把相關的研議跟委員做進一步報告對啊 我們要知道說你針對這部分已經知道有這個缺失那我們研議又怎麼去做我是建議應該設計一個專屬嬰幼兒的規章讓消費者很明確的可以知道而且我們現在這個業者"},{"start":12693.622,"end":12706.972,"text":"針對嬰幼兒食品還是一般食品的進口的部分我們到底怎麼去管制好像他要主動送驗我們才知道然後如果到市面上是抽驗到有問題才下架是不是這樣子"},{"start":12707.421,"end":12731.735,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為專屬號列裡面其實沒有針對嬰幼兒所以我們在跨部會裡面的研議裡面我們希望把這一塊能夠在研議之後有機會在真的是要給嬰幼兒你必須要怎麼標示而且是進口的時候就已經能夠確立分開來讓民眾在消費的時候在選擇嬰幼兒的食品的過程當中很清楚的可以了解這是我們在努力的我們希望這部分真的加強因為你看"},{"start":12732.495,"end":12757.791,"text":"我們這個嬰幼兒食品海苔的部分我們發現之後其實週刊也有爆料後來他們去檢查去市面上檢查後來發現很多的電商平台它這些的嬰幼兒食品很多也是重金屬超標那針對這一部分是不是一樣像電商平台這一部分我們也沒有辦法主動去管理"},{"start":12758.712,"end":12783.648,"text":"報告委員我們其實針對電商平台裡面的標示只要是嬰幼兒的部分我們就有類似或者推論他們是應該要給嬰幼兒或者暗示要給嬰幼兒的使用我們目前的做法是如果是這個就以嚴格的標準來去做管制可是電商平台它市面上沒有販售你怎麼去檢查那等於消費者買到或者你主動去買來抽驗"},{"start":12785.996,"end":12807.451,"text":"對 我們其實有一部分是這種架構的形式看到是網路的巡查 然後架構尤其現在特定的議題非常非常的需要我們去了解的時候我們的同仁是採取這種方式那整體的規劃我們還是希望能夠是在進口裡面的所謂的關稅上面的分折號列能夠達成這樣的效果所以我也提醒 電商平台這一部分"},{"start":12807.951,"end":12825.099,"text":"目前市面上沒有販售 它是輸入的都是等到消費者買到實用那我們食藥署變成要去主動那業者在這一部分如果他沒有主動去送驗其實我們食藥署也是並不知道他有沒有超標的 對不對"},{"start":12826.36,"end":12849.498,"text":"而我們針對現代食品所有食品其實不能說完全靠檢驗但是我們的規格裡面業者必須要對於自己的產品符合這個規定才能夠上架所以我們在目前的研議裡面賦予業者以及電商平台共同針對他們食品是否合規合法要進一步的去研議以及加強的管理"},{"start":12850.018,"end":12877.573,"text":"所以希望這一部分尤其我們嬰幼兒食品它現在我們市面上的可以去查驗那電商平台這一部分看怎麼去加強不然我們覺得嬰幼兒這一部分因為它本身比較脆弱那如果像這些食品裡面有重金屬 農藥殘留 污染物甚至三聚氰胺等等都會造成對他們身體非常嚴重的影響這一部分那就三個月內"},{"start":12878.453,"end":12905.429,"text":"提供研議後的做法是的謝謝委員的指導好那最後再請問一下我們次長剛剛次長今天有來我想請問一下像我們現在網路市面上有看到很多的偽藥廣告那針對這一部分我們檢察署都有出來為食藥署說明它這個是偽藥可是"},{"start":12906.618,"end":12914.076,"text":"你看我們這個提供的資料它已經出來說是尾要可是我們現在網路上我看它還是繼續在販售"},{"start":12916.473,"end":12944.832,"text":"我們會立刻到那個我們網路巡查那邊尋到的話我們會請相關的這個社群媒體業者把他下架所以我現在不了解的是你看我們在高雄地檢署在2025年7月14號就發新聞稿讓大眾知道這個網紅賣的尾要結果我們在2026年1月到現在整整半年在網路上還有廣告而且還買得到而且還可以訂購"},{"start":12946.073,"end":12968.534,"text":"那我不知道說我們是不是衛福部跟司法機關都沒有做橫向的聯繫而且居然檢察署出來幫食藥署說這個偽藥的成分在幫我們衛福部在做事我們這偽藥的部分其實如果是確定是偽藥的話我們都會跟社群媒體這邊要求它下架這個依法我們可以處理"},{"start":12969.127,"end":12997.102,"text":"那希望市長了解一下 這已經半年囉檢查署都已經公開說它是偽藥 偽藥的成分我們固定會去做網路巡查有查到我們就會通知對那個社群媒體把它下架而且還有民眾說不但原先的沒下架 它現在還出加強版還2.0 plus這個案子我們回去請我們相關的這個同仁去所以我希望衛福部加強一下司法機關已經公告是偽藥結果我們衛福部完全沒有作為"},{"start":12998.975,"end":13026.426,"text":"所以我希望說是不是針對這部分我們要了解一下檢察署都已經公開發新聞稿半年了網路上還在打廣告還在販售還可以訂購報告委員這個應該是食品一般的食品偽裝成藥品所以我們針對網路上面偽裝的這樣子的我們在網路巡查以及刻意這販售的業者以及平台我們希望能夠加強巡查以外遮蔽同時會所以我們不知道問題在哪裡"},{"start":13027.306,"end":13054.696,"text":"你看2025年7月14号地检署就公开说明这个网红卖的是伪药以他上面写的这个成分其实他的问题在于他是用食品然后宣称为药品那食品宣称为药品事实上就违反我们相关的法规对啊我们看他的广告用语跟宣传的内容他们都是用暗示明示很明确违反药事法跟食品安全卫生管理法主要是药事法"},{"start":13055.816,"end":13080.842,"text":"對 這部分我希望衛福部來了解一下我們會針對這一個產品我們會請同仁在就是說社群平台上再搜尋一下那有搜尋到我們就請他下架我相信這個可能不是單一個案啦類似像這種情形我覺得我們衛福部還是要掌握一下我們固定其實有網路巡查對啊 那有檢察署都已經發新聞稿公告結果半年以後還在賣 還出加強版這真的是 我覺得這一個笑話"},{"start":13081.582,"end":13108.599,"text":"也請大家就是真的要麻煩各位民眾就是說在網路上面不要聽信網路上面這一些他用宣稱或者是用這個暗示民視有藥效可是他實際上登記為食品的東西好 希望衛福部這一部分跟檢察署看是不是有個來聯繫的機制這個平台怎麼建立他已經發新聞稿結果市面上還在販售我覺得這對食藥署我覺得不是好事我們會積極來處理希望衛福部來加強一下"},{"start":13111.241,"end":13137.674,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝圖委員 謝謝次長接下來請鄭振成委員 鄭振全委員 鄭振全委員不在請林月琴委員主席麻煩我們的次長來 次長委員好上午好 那首先"},{"start":13140.307,"end":13157.096,"text":"我很支持這次的修法的方向因為大家都不想看到缺藥物發生之後才來救火可是這也是台灣韌性台灣藥品韌性的一個很重要環節所以我今天第一件事情就是問你的申報制度到底要怎麼做才會有用為什麼"},{"start":13158.317,"end":13176.289,"text":"定期申報到底要怎麼操作如果頻率定的太密中小型的藥商行政負擔會加重更重要的是申報要報什麼才能夠看得到風險先是立法通過後授權主管機關另定辦法所以想問的是說"},{"start":13176.969,"end":13196.085,"text":"後續配套辦法當中是否會有明確評估申報的頻率跟藥品風險的等級的關聯性還有以及如何平衡廠商的儲存的一個成本會不會有獎勵廠商拉高庫存的措施所以部長你們目前的初步規劃是什麼"},{"start":13196.325,"end":13217.405,"text":"好 謝謝委員真的這個部分我們事實上也希望能夠補強相關的法源然後再來我們在另外那個藥品認証的案子裡面希望能夠支持廠商有一些必要的不論是它的相關的成本或者是相關的這些投資那我們在這個部分裡面我們其實就像剛剛委員提到的查查就是說申報的頻率我們會針對它有一些不同的風險"},{"start":13218.166,"end":13244.39,"text":"因為有些藥品他可能就只有單一兩家藥廠他一旦任何一家藥廠出問題我們大概就會供應上有問題那有些他可能比較多家藥廠或是他在市面上他的類似用藥或同成分用藥比較多那這個部分我們在頻率上可能就可以稍微比較不那麼嚴格那我們在這邊目前所設置的目前所有目前大概是以每一劑來做申報但是有一些高風險的我們會有一些比較明確的在持續跟這些廠商做一些監督跟管理"},{"start":13244.77,"end":13261.486,"text":"所以我覺得衛福要有清楚規劃因為有時候我剛剛也提過如果中小型的藥商他行政負擔會加重如果你每一季有去考慮到這些嗎因為把這套制度做成早知道早介入早調度的工具的話而不是事後追查的一個工具我們希望能夠提早預計"},{"start":13262.046,"end":13278.409,"text":"而且也跟我們報告就是說過去也因為其實我們也很感謝廠商跟機構還有相關學協會都一起要來維持我們的供應韌性所以事實上有一些藥品我們也知道有一些藥廠他會提早告訴我們提早告訴我們之後我們會找學協會來了解尤其在找健保署"},{"start":13278.629,"end":13301.252,"text":"就是會知道說目前藥品的使用量使用狀況那學協會也會提供一些資訊告訴我們說他們事實上已經有哪些類同樣的成分的藥品他們是可以替換來使用的那這樣這個就比較簡單那如果是單一藥廠或者是特定藥廠的一些藥品這個部分頻率可能就會加的比較頻繁一點再來重大事件的時候政府要有調度權我了解我也支持"},{"start":13301.872,"end":13318.007,"text":"可是我的重點很簡單授權可以可是規則一樣要講清楚第一你們要怎麼界定只有在極端情境才啟動限制供應所以這樣可不可以把原則講清楚避免外界現在質疑把緊急權利變成常態工具"},{"start":13319.133,"end":13335.995,"text":"其實因為事實上在平常的狀況各藥廠之間的供應事實上就是大家有一個調度的機制那事實上我們這個主要是因應一個事情是在重大或緊急重大影響公共事件公共事件第一個部分是在WHO他有對於國際關注突發公共事件他有一些定義"},{"start":13336.596,"end":13358.582,"text":"那第一個當然我們會針對這個定義來做來做相關的這個就是我第二個要問的立法說明就是希望廠商為公益挺身那我就要問你們要怎麼設計配套讓廠商配合調度的時候不會被合約罰款追著跑因為廠商跟醫院大半都有供貨的一個合約醫院又是強勢的買方如果政府在缺藥時要求藥商"},{"start":13360.723,"end":13387.966,"text":"把原本要供应给某些单位的药改播到其他地方那厂商可能就是面临到违约那罚款的一些风险在这些风险如果全部都丢给厂商的话最后就是厂商干脆我们注销市占不高的药证不做了那结果更缺药所以市长是不是可以讲清楚说你们面对这个可执行可负担可预期你们的制度是不是对"},{"start":13388.606,"end":13412.515,"text":"廠商來講事實上是可執行可負擔可預期而且至少要讓業者知道說配合政府不會換來被罰被黑名單被迫退出報告委員其實就是因為我們過去在緊急狀況或者是特殊專案進口的時候那個調度都是我們自己跟敢勇拜託的廠商他手頭上沒有相關法源可以確保他們在合約的部分可以因為政府的調度而得到相關的保障"},{"start":13413.155,"end":13429.067,"text":"所以其實過去也跟委員很誠實的講2024年那時候生理的鹹水我們在調度過程都是我們都感謝各個廠商是配合我們然後我們還行文給各醫療機構說因為這個原因所以他們配合我們調度所以那個合約的部分要請各位各個醫療院所用我們這個所發的這個函"},{"start":13431.849,"end":13457.883,"text":"能夠讓藥廠不要因為過去的合約受到限制跟影響事實上過去是用這個方式處理所以這次的修法事實上去補強這個東西就是說當這些緊急或重大影響公共衛生事件的時候因為這個事件發生了所以這一些部分由我們食藥署來做相關的調度那這個調度的過程中因為廠商配合我們這個法源的調度所以各醫療機構原先跟他們的這個相關的合約就能夠有我們這邊的授權來做處理"},{"start":13458.863,"end":13481.177,"text":"因為我覺得真的他們願意配合政府的就不應該是讓他們承擔風險所以過去就是因為沒有這個法源這次我們把法源補上謝謝委員史博長去年18月的時候說今年1月開始要鼓勵國產學民要使用量達到70%而且從化療的學民要擴大到所有癌症學民要請問這樣是不是可以能夠"},{"start":13482.498,"end":13488.883,"text":"我們的敦促健保署趕快儘快公告上路預計大家什麼時候上路這已經公告了已經公告上路了嗎"},{"start":13491.781,"end":13517.652,"text":"來 可不可以說明一下因為大家都很擔心 一直怎麼都還沒有結果好 那報告主席跟各位委員那我們那個生物相似性藥跟化療學名藥的部分在去年呢下半年我們在8月的時候也已經有公告9月開始實施的這個化療學名藥 癌藥的化學治療的學名藥的部分那今年會再擴大把全部癌藥的學名藥一起規劃進來"},{"start":13518.792,"end":13543.674,"text":"是 好 謝謝再來我要問的是未成年用藥的問題那首先上週我們莊瑞雄委員詢問部長說瘦瘦真的亂象部長說要加強管理那部長也說瘦瘦真的取得一定要有醫師的處方簽我想長年我們調查也顯示說容貌跟身材焦慮常常是青少年前三名的一個煩惱在"},{"start":13544.915,"end":13569.009,"text":"所以我现在就收到国高中生来跟我分享说有同学没有透过正确的医师评估跟处方签的管道就跟着家人一起在使用瘦瘦针那甚至自己存钱在网路上去购买来入不明的一个针剂所以这样我问题很直接就是说现在瘦瘦针这么多款而且哪些是可以让未成年使用又哪些会有限制"},{"start":13569.409,"end":13594.969,"text":"对未成年人的影响评估是什么那再来卫福部要不要有一个明确的说法公告让家长跟青少年不是上网Google问或问ChatGBT然后卫福部是不是可以直接宣导说怎么去理解搜索人到底对未成年的影响是什么还有使用限制以及什么是正确的我们的减重观念我想我们直接先讲就是说这是一个药品"},{"start":13595.869,"end":13623.381,"text":"藥品就是要經過專科醫師依照病人的需求是不是符合適應症評估之後開藥然後這個開藥之後還要由藥師這邊來協助給予用藥指導這個是標準用藥程序所以像現在提到的大家自己上網路去買或者是團購它這就是違法行為而且這個過程中很有可能用到的是偽藥或者是假藥可是抓得到嗎所以我認為這件事情真的要慎重處理因為現在已經未為"},{"start":13623.681,"end":13647.75,"text":"也要再补充一个资讯就是说其实为什么在我们对于儿童或青少年的这个用药要更加的谨慎那我们也相信说这个过程中其实不论是内分泌科或者是这个我们讲儿科医师在给药的部分我们会希望他们能够他们这边其实会比较能够照专业处理那这个药品因为目前的研究发现停了药之后有些人他如果本身的习惯没有改变他会有反弹性的腹胖"},{"start":13648.71,"end":13663.447,"text":"所以这个部分也是为什么说其他用药是一个协助目前我们讲的病态性肥胖的病人会有帮助但是其他的民众或者是甚至没有到病态性肥胖的病人最重要的事情还是他的饮食建议跟相关的行为改变市长我很关心的"},{"start":13663.547,"end":13687.462,"text":"是青少年那现在青少年已经在使用我刚刚讲说他们对于容貌跟身材就实际上是焦虑的而且是他们的前三名所以是不是请卫福部两周内把公告或新闻稿处理好把未成年使用受受针的规范跟风险讲清楚让家长跟青少年看得懂查得到我觉得这些蛮重要因为已经事实上不是少数的人在使用"},{"start":13687.622,"end":13697.153,"text":"我以为这个部分是不是我们跟包含儿科医学会还有我们讲的内分泌相关的学习协会那一起来处理这个声明好不好两周内最后"},{"start":13700.743,"end":13719.332,"text":"社工是在幫政府把社會福利落地在第一線照顧弱勢處境的民眾政府既然靠社工落實社會福利然後政府就有責任把社工照顧好上週嘉義市花蓮縣社會工作人員職業工會已經發文反映說一個月的薪資延遲發放的問題"},{"start":13724.995,"end":13751.328,"text":"市長你們到底有沒有理解因為現在還有哪些縣市也同樣有狀況因為這邊在臉書催都一直不斷的有開始在談到這個課題那這些狀況裡面哪些是約定好一月就是會晚發的是哪些是根本就沒有按期發放是否你現在是否有所有縣市真的都確定去發薪水了嗎因為我從上週三接到社工來告訴我之後我就開始問你們"},{"start":13752.128,"end":13779.567,"text":"可是问了今天快一周了所以你可不可以先回答我也就是说这几个问题你是要请社工师的组织的那个单位来回答呢还是有资料给我这边先跟委员做报告我想我们还是要再一次强调就是说希望各县市政府社工是各县市政府最重要的人力资产请各县市政府这边要能够在相关程序上面来协助那我们现在到我们在1月16号的资料里面"},{"start":13782.009,"end":13796.827,"text":"當時還沒有完成發行的縣市是花蓮跟澎湖那他們給我們的資料是最晚今天會完成那其他的15個縣市是在5日之前有發行那另外的話就是說台東彰化連江嘉義跟雲林縣是16號之前發行"},{"start":13797.748,"end":13824.934,"text":"次長薪水延遲發放從勞基法精神來看就是一件很嚴重的事情從對一般家庭來講孩子的補習費房租費然後水電費這些每一筆都有一些期限沒有誰可以跟你講說我行政流程比較慢你先等等如果講還有16 19今天都已經我們的叫月中了所以從現在狀況下來看的話有些縣市的聘用社工每次到1月"},{"start":13825.874,"end":13854.231,"text":"因為聽他們講說今年不是單一不是第一次過往都是這樣都是用行政因素把顏值發放薪水變成一個好像可以被接受的事情更奇怪的是不是每個縣市都這樣如果說今天全台灣22個縣市都這樣不是就是部分縣市所以明明三分之二的縣市都能夠準時發薪的話那代表這不是一定做不到而是沒有把它當一回事人家每一筆錢都是等著家庭的花用"},{"start":13854.931,"end":13869.567,"text":"有人可以延遲嗎因為如果今天房東可以讓我延遲說繳房租嗎不可能嘛所以我也知道你等一下可能會跟我講說這不是社工這是縣市聘用人員都會遇到的要去找全系部還有人事總處來處理可是市長"},{"start":13871.95,"end":13891.532,"text":"你們身為一個全國社工的主管機關我要求你們不要把責任往外推而且是要先回答衛福部自己能做什麼的問題也就是你們到底可以做什麼我說今天已經不是常態他過往就是這樣每次碰到一月就有這種狀況所以也不要跟我講說你們已經發文要求這類的空話明年是不是又要再發生"},{"start":13892.173,"end":13914.84,"text":"因為現實延遲的這個狀況還是持續今天我說今年不是第一年所以如果民間團體假設我們如果民間社福團體這樣做的話你們政府就馬上就來要求救責然後甚至有罰則那現在輪到你們自己系統裡面出現這樣子一月延遲發放薪水而且到月中才給的話你們要拿出什麼樣的更積極的作為可不可以"},{"start":13915.92,"end":13934.586,"text":"檢討你社福績效考核的項目把這個放進去把社工權益跟身心健康保障放進去更積極的要求各縣市還是你們準備用什麼方式來確保這件事情明年不會再發生我們就像剛剛委員提到的我們有我們把相關的社福考核這個部分列入其中一個評估好不好讓我們把它評估看看"},{"start":13935.226,"end":13957.861,"text":"不過我覺得真的我們每一個人都是領薪水過日子的人不要讓社工在赤字巴望著你們的一月薪水要下來然後呢還要自己墊腳房租做這些事情甚至搞不好去借款也是非常希望地方政府因為我們其實給的這些談判就是希望地方政府可以來落實就像您說的有的縣市做得到有的縣市做不到所以我覺得"},{"start":13959.102,"end":13970.332,"text":"請問服務就你們可以做到的部分兩週內研議好你們相關的一些措施然後提供給我們辦公室兩週好謝謝再請黃修翁委員來做懸導謝謝主席我們請次長來請次長"},{"start":13989.497,"end":14016.129,"text":"市長好市長我先就剛剛有幾位委員有特別提到其實我我們現在不論是打開電視或者是收音機或者是網路其實都可以看到很多的健康食品那健康食品都聲稱這個這個功效很好我相信市長你應該自己也有看過甚至那個一個廣告可能就是5分鐘以上的那我不知道說市長針對這一部分你們有什麼樣的"},{"start":14017.349,"end":14038.698,"text":"因應措施甚至我有聽過就是說有的藥廠或者是做健康食品他們反正他們也不怕法他們賺的更多所以我不知道說市長你針對這一部分你們未來要怎麼去規範這件事情我跟署長這邊我們其實都是支持要更嚴格來看待因為這邊實在是過去灰色地帶太多我是請署長說明一下"},{"start":14040.66,"end":14057.018,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步說明我們食品現在就一般食品跟健康食品因為是在健康食品向下去管理現在食品有400多項接近30年的時間的管理所以我去年2月份來了之後發現它是重要的議題"},{"start":14057.619,"end":14073.636,"text":"所以我們加強研議希望把現在所謂的保健相關食品為什麼叫保健相關食品因為都宣稱是保健食品因為健康食品要有保健功效所以他就把保健食品就納進去的想法在我的想法裡面應該要把那一塊做積極的納管"},{"start":14075.058,"end":14089.33,"text":"所以署內針對這件事情希望能夠在保健相關食品在我們一般食品健康食品中間有一個類似國際其他國家管理的相次叫做功能性相關食品的所以在這樣子之下把我們世紀上的所謂的"},{"start":14090.211,"end":14114.244,"text":"特定的成分特定的含量它潛在的可能保健跟身體的功效可以宣稱的部分能夠納管所以我們今年一月份也連續舉辦了已經完成兩場第三場就是我們相關的食品保健相關的食品功能性相關食品如何去做所謂廣告宣傳宣稱以及它的詞句可以說明做積極的輔導"},{"start":14115.393,"end":14131.864,"text":"那這個兩天的行程跟委員報告其實非常非常多的業者包括是工協會的包括是學校老師能夠去了解我們希望納管的範圍我想在這樣的納管情形之下如果納管之後還有很多的"},{"start":14132.364,"end":14155.07,"text":"所謂的不合規的部分我們現在是積極的是裁罰裁罰的部分過去裁罰相對少後來變成嚴重程度重複程度以及它的時間的程度我們反而甚至有上百萬的一個廣告不合規的廣告我們目前是持續的把這個部分做積極的納管在進行當中其實我相信次長跟署長你們"},{"start":14158.231,"end":14182.599,"text":"應該收音機 電視 網路其實真的是非常的嚴重所以很多人會覺得說這不可以很好賺一個觀念就不可以很好賺甚至在電台上面不論是清晨的從清晨現在打開收音機開車的時候打開收音機你聽到幾乎每一台都是在賣健康保健食品所以我都覺得說"},{"start":14184.277,"end":14204.332,"text":"台灣人 醫療要就醫其實也都蠻方便的有必要去買一些過心臟的、通血路的非常多所以我覺得這一個區塊應該要去更積極的來管理不然真的有的人就是很愛買的買的可能吃了對身體也不一定好"},{"start":14207.995,"end":14228.813,"text":"委员说得好其实我自己以前临床常跟病人讲台湾这样子营养充分资源充分你要吃什么都吃得到食品这么多的一个国家还需要吃营养补充品是一件不太合理的事情可能某些情况之下因为自己身体的某些状况他可能需要某些补充品或像刚刚署长提到我们以后变成是一个功能食品但是"},{"start":14230.234,"end":14254.345,"text":"其实它现在很多都是以食品在贩卖那用食安法用食品的贩卖的方式来用暗示它有疗效所以像剛才有人说的帮老公这个广播里面说没有啊其实它根本就不是有啊它是用食品让你吃感觉上自己好像在吃一个比药物更好的东西这是非常不合理的事情我自己在过去听广播我还有检举过我自己听完之后拿给食药署检举"},{"start":14254.605,"end":14271.484,"text":"所以我覺得說應該要更積極的去管理是 我們會積極管理那另外還有一項這也是我最近在地方聽到的我想說先講就是說我們在去年通過那個80歲免巴士量表就是可以聘用就是用這樣子可以聘用那個外籍的這個看護工那"},{"start":14274.187,"end":14290.096,"text":"現在目前有很多的造福員在跟我講他們的案量減少而且減少的非常的多所以我希望就是說次長針對這一部分你們應該要去做一個調查到底我們這個政策下去之後那對造福員是不是有很大的影響"},{"start":14291.156,"end":14319.51,"text":"这一块我们其实因为之前有跟劳动部这边在捞就是说那个照服员还有移工这边的流动那这个部分我们会持续监控那当然其实主要就是说第一个希望能够让我们的原来照服员他的工作服务不受影响第二个部分的话其实就希望说我们的高龄长者能够受到比较好的照顾不过其实还是真的我们还是要趁机讲一下照服员这边他受过的相关训练跟专业能力我相信他们能够提供给我们高龄长者比较好的照顾"},{"start":14320.471,"end":14339.887,"text":"这个我是听到一部分那我希望就是说你们应该要去这个调查一下到底是影响是什么样的影响那到底影响有多大这我们会回去盘那接下来我想请教就是说今天我们在讨论这个药事法的部分条文修正草案那我记得在前两年就是我们的那个生理实验水"},{"start":14340.467,"end":14356.621,"text":"真的非常誇張就是說沒有生理食鹽水可用那像當然這個修正草案通過之後當然可以更進一步提早知道什麼樣的藥品缺那可以及早因應那我想請教就是說"},{"start":14357.902,"end":14378.831,"text":"未來我們原本就是說要求這個廠商在停產或者是缺貨的這個之前6個月要去回報那如果是不可抗力的因素導致短缺或斷貨就是要求30日前要通報那這個修正草案通過之後那我們要怎麼樣去跟這些業者"},{"start":14379.651,"end":14402.565,"text":"去溝通可以讓他們真的萬一碰到事情的時候可以更積極然後可以真的可以去解決要不然其實我們立法之後如果沒有很積極再去處理的話其實空有這樣的一個法條其實我覺得也沒什麼用所以我可不可以請次長針對這部分未來你們是不是有跟業者已經有一個協調那有一個方向是不是"},{"start":14402.745,"end":14421.041,"text":"其實因為現在其實持續都有跟業者這邊在溝通那有一些業者過去因為我們這邊有兩個部分必要藥品我們本來就有規定他們要通報但是有一些是沒有放在必要藥品裡面的但是可能也是民眾使用量很大的一些藥品所以我們這次包含第一個是希望完備就是說有一些藥品能夠提早能夠預知"},{"start":14421.681,"end":14442.704,"text":"再來必要藥品這邊當然它如果不可抗力事項因為什麼傳奇因為等等也能夠提早讓我們知道我們能夠來跟健保署這邊去勾結相關的用量有沒有其他的藥品可以趕快能夠來提供供應因為有的藥品它可能有好幾家廠商都是一樣的藥效那這樣過去我們都尊重市場機制但是如果某一家藥廠沒有辦法供應的時候其他藥廠可以供進來大概是這個部分"},{"start":14443.064,"end":14465.059,"text":"那当然这里面我们的这个评估跟短缺当然还是有一个重点是说我们希望在另外我们提出来药品任性那个计划能够强化国内自己的供应链因为很多它可能是国内的原料要断了或者是国外进来断了那我们希望减少这个部分的发生当然如果是药厂这边及早发现有这些问题及早让我们知道我们来协助做因应"},{"start":14466.059,"end":14487.232,"text":"市長 針對就是說之前在二五戰爭的時候那有一些藥品可能就是短缺嘛那很多國家他們也希望說這個藥品能夠在地化透過這個行政命令或者是用法令的規範就是藥品就是在地化那針對這一部分我們有沒有這樣的一個規範或是未來就朝著這樣的一個方向來進行"},{"start":14487.981,"end":14505.829,"text":"那跟我原作進一步說明我們這一次除了藥事法修訂以外我們在藥物韌性計畫四年的計畫當中其實對於藥品不管是我們的學名藥製劑或者是我們的什麼原料藥在地方落地其實我們是重要的工作的相似裡面希望能夠增加我們的韌性"},{"start":14506.529,"end":14521.836,"text":"至於剛才特別提到說我們對於業者或者盤商或者是藥商如何去針對我們要提供訊息的我們目前原則上是大概是希望一劑但是每個藥它的供應的特性會不同"},{"start":14522.336,"end":14537.096,"text":"会经过里面会有更短的甚至会大部分都是长会有更短的那这个其实药商其实在协调的过程中我们其实要积极的听取他们的意见他们的困难能够达到任性才是我们最主要的目的"},{"start":14537.577,"end":14555.409,"text":"那次長我再詢問一下就是說最近有一些媽媽他們在講說這個嬰兒奶粉就是這個廠牌的嬰兒奶粉品質有出現疑慮那在市面上確實有的嬰兒他原本是吃這個廠牌的那確實也買不到可能這個"},{"start":14556.77,"end":14576.349,"text":"店家有說可能要等到3月份那我不知道說食藥署針對這一部分有沒有接到什麼樣的訊息或者是我們國內針對這一部分是不是這個奶粉有污染的或者是預防下架我不知道說我們衛福部有沒有針對這一部分來做一個要求業者就是說預防下架的一個"},{"start":14577.41,"end":14597.476,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當時接到廠商這樣的資訊因為我們自己食藥署也會跟國際上面一直去看國外有沒有這樣的資訊所以我們發現這件事情之後立刻署長這邊就立刻跟廠商這邊去詢問那個受汙染那個批號有沒有進來台灣後來我們調查起來是沒有進來一開始的時候12月份他們announce國際的"},{"start":14597.896,"end":14613.288,"text":"我們在第一時間裡面其實我們在邊境的輸入的就可以抓到批號是對不起來沒有那除了我們確定以外他們也同時確定到1月份的時候呢香港部分有另外有批號進來所以他們做了一件事情1月6號來這邊做了簡單的說明"},{"start":14616.71,"end":14630.995,"text":"他們選擇的是趕快進去驗到底有沒有所謂的仙人桿菌素這個污染毒素在裡面驗起來沒有但是我強調的一件事情你驗沒有跟你有沒有進來是兩件事情最後他們在確立"},{"start":14632.415,"end":14651.451,"text":"是沒辦法排除這個供應鏈的情形之下呢就直接下架所以我們要求他們說要清楚的知道你的供應鏈裡面加上我們對起來的因為進來的批號裡面到底是哪些批號是他們總公司給他們的訊息是哪些批號但是我們有看到相對的是有進來持續他們進來這是大廠嘛"},{"start":14653.493,"end":14672.567,"text":"持续进来里面到底是什么对象那后来他们说他们不是很确定虽然他们在预防性下降以外他们在后市场端先前他自己也验实际上是没有毒素的但是他们在企业的社会责任我说你必须在没有办法实在不能完全靠检验的情形之下你必须要"},{"start":14673.528,"end":14687.36,"text":"對自己負責所以他們會玩就選擇就是好那就整個下架我想在整個的管理過程中至於國內目前的嬰兒的奶粉的部分目前是沒有特別提到通報上短缺的一些議題因為有的媽媽他就是買這個廠牌的然後"},{"start":14690.302,"end":14706.532,"text":"所以大家就會想說到底是因為什麼樣的原因那也擔心就是說買了之後小孩吃了出現問題所以我們也希望就是說針對食的安全然後用藥安全我覺得這個是食藥署真的非常重大的一個課題那也感謝我們這個次長跟署長謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14710.523,"end":14731.314,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在請徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員不在我們請陳穎委員來做懸打我們中午就不休息了 還是要休息不休息了"},{"start":14732.883,"end":14749.054,"text":"因為沒有人可以問 只有妳可以問而已不好意思 那我們就不休息請黨團的助理聯絡一下所以我問到不休息對 妳可以看妳可以怎樣問好 謝謝主席那個麻煩請我們衛福部次長還有食藥署署長委員好"},{"start":14757.888,"end":14780.869,"text":"兩位好缺藥跟缺原料是全球共同的問題那本席也很高興在疫情過後衛福部有相當正視這個問題所以食藥署在2024年1月31號的時候呢就已經發布了這個藥品供應監測系統而且已經上線啟用那當然主要的目的"},{"start":14781.349,"end":14806.321,"text":"是為了要持續強化主動監測跟協調藥品妥善分配確保藥品穩定供應那因此針對這個系統本席有幾個問題要請教那當初這個藥品供應的監測系統呢最初鎖定參與的這個對象是哪些那大概全台全台有幾家"},{"start":14808.798,"end":14828.119,"text":"跟委員這邊做進一步說明我們當初希望能夠是供應端的能夠知道所以第一件事情就是我們相關的盤商盤商其實是協助把藥品送到醫療院所等等的這個過程當中所以這是一塊我們現在能夠精準的比較掌握的"},{"start":14828.76,"end":14851.121,"text":"那我們持續的希望他能夠除了這以外我們目前在藥物韌性計畫裡面能夠把更多的資訊能夠導入所以我們有一個叫做藥物智慧導入的邏輯的以及存在的系統所以那個供應端大概基本上就是包括這個大型藥廠啦還有這些大型的裝盤商等等"},{"start":14851.832,"end":14875.469,"text":"目前有14家那因為當初一開始參與的時候我們接到的資訊是大型中盤商的家數你們當初發布的時候一開始只有12家那現在有14家了那這樣子的但在我們全台就是你有統計過我們有多少的大型藥廠跟多少的大型中盤商"},{"start":14878.348,"end":14902.997,"text":"對 針對這個議題謝謝委員我們就想盡辦法在進口商的部分是另外一部分我們能夠知道也希望能夠在醫院端能夠取得對啊 那你有沒有統計過大約的數據這個大型的大概都已經包含在裡面但是有一部分的其實是我們要持續在溝通的當中好 那如果說好幾百我這樣子的這樣子的估計有這麼多嗎"},{"start":14905.046,"end":14913.054,"text":"而那是藥廠的部分我們在盤商的部分其實是大型的盤商在比較確立的是比較集中那目前是這樣子的狀況"},{"start":14914.749,"end":14943.23,"text":"對那所以不是因為你們既然有這個監測系統我竟然問不出大概起碼就是說那有多少是不方便跟委員我們大概是從後面的量藥品的劑量大概是接近九成的量八到九成的涵蓋量就是說我們沒有涵蓋每一家但是整體在健保系統裡面的供應的量大概涵蓋有八到九成但中間還是有需要努力的地方"},{"start":14944.088,"end":14960.598,"text":"對 所以我還是聽不太懂就是那個量你的量大概有多少你說實際的加數對啊加數的部分我這就幾家中本山14家是在裡面還有其他什麼加數"},{"start":14963.709,"end":14986.158,"text":"還有社區藥局的我想這個部分是還沒有完全涵蓋委員是很精確的所以如果連社區藥局都是的話那我問你加速應該我想你們要做這個監測系統最起碼基本的這些加速數據你們應該要很精確的掌握吧所以我說好幾百應該也不過分"},{"start":14987.228,"end":15007.026,"text":"跟委員報告因為這些藥局其實都是靠盤商送去的我理解所以你如果可以很具體告訴我盤商有哪些盤商目前我們是涵蓋了14家盤商14家所以你說14家有涵蓋率90%80%到90%接近90%的所有的健保的使用藥物好那"},{"start":15012.346,"end":15039.524,"text":"這個平台的運作方式我先記住你剛剛講的涵蓋率80%到90%這個平台的運作方式是由合作大型中盤藥商每天將藥品庫存資料借接導入我用大型中盤藥商基本上是根據你們的新聞稿的文字"},{"start":15042.206,"end":15062.593,"text":"就是這個具備這個查詢介面然後供這個職業的藥事人員查詢所需藥品然後於這個合作中盤藥商之供應情形那將有助這個基層藥局及診所取得所需的藥品來保障民眾用藥的權益那這裡面的問題是"},{"start":15065.894,"end":15092.067,"text":"大型的醫療院所它所需求的藥品可能跟這個基層藥局的診所不太一樣像剛剛講因為藥局畢竟我們都比較可以垂手可得那他們負責的可能是直接就大型醫療院所負責的可能是直接跟這個嚴重疾病或者是涉及生命安全的藥品有關那跟民眾的用藥是不太一樣的"},{"start":15093.448,"end":15114.041,"text":"所以是不是這個系統對於大型醫療院所用的藥實際上並沒有監測到或者監測不足這個部分委員其實講得非常精準我們針對有一塊醫院裡面的所謂的藥品的部分我們採用的方式是"},{"start":15115.502,"end":15135.03,"text":"希望能夠在健保的部分使用量能夠借階能夠知道它實際上的我們需要的是它的量的走勢那至於我們在社區藥局裡面還是有一大部分比例特別是我們連續處方籤的一些所謂的代謝性疾病的使用高血壓糖尿液等等所以這個部分是有可能是重複一點點"},{"start":15136.05,"end":15141.357,"text":"就是說對我們這個監測我從我開始質詢到現在我一直聽到監測這個量這個量但對於我們這個藥品的這個"},{"start":15148.392,"end":15172.368,"text":"種類或類別的這個藥品其實我們比較可以看到的是它的量所以那個大型醫院所提供的藥品必要藥品跟我們一般在藥房可以取得的或使用的其實這個就有一些差別了我想這個部分會不會就有疏漏到"},{"start":15172.928,"end":15193.918,"text":"或者您說的也重疊到跟委員先報告就是說在藥品供應上面來講其實我們一直要求就是比較大型的醫療院所它其實跟相關的藥品廠商這邊它的契約是非常重要的一件事因為它這邊的契約才能夠穩定的持續供應這些大型醫療院所它量比較大或是某些剛剛委員提到的"},{"start":15194.258,"end":15219.759,"text":"某些比較特定的藥品他自己跟藥廠之間的契約來確保他的合約供應那再來剛剛提到我們這個中間這個系統事實上在盤商這邊事實上是協助包含比較中小型或者是我們的這一個基層的藥局去確保他們這邊的運作能夠有一定程度的供應大概是這兩個部分對這個我理解因為那確實你們這個新聞稿大概我想我提問大概也依據你們發布的訊息來提問那"},{"start":15222.162,"end":15240.059,"text":"我們換一個角度來看就是說我們如何來鼓勵這個藥廠的參與參與這個藥品存量的通報畢竟就是說每日通報的人事行政成本是不低的"},{"start":15240.78,"end":15262.786,"text":"那甚至呢這個可能還有這個校期的問題啊政策沒有說明清楚啦等等那就是說他行政成本不低以外那你們到底有沒有誘因那政府對於這個藥商通報的正確性好像也沒有那個立場去苛責嘛我不曉得你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":15264.588,"end":15281.12,"text":"報告委員 針對現在我們需要的希望能夠可靜性所以是採用電腦拋接的形式讓它的行政成本能夠以最低的行政成本能夠達到這樣的效果那第二個部分是對於藥商裡面假如是不可苛責 比如說傳奇"},{"start":15282.961,"end":15301.368,"text":"比如說他的航班等等的重大的事件之下我們也會有一些免除的條款可是這些系的辦法在這一次的修法的大架構底下呢還會有執法的一些辦法我們會繼續的延伸那個細節我這樣問好了你們對於就是說目前的通報狀況你們滿意嗎"},{"start":15305.34,"end":15328.039,"text":"報告委員我們目前對於藥品出現異常的時候需要做進一步分析的我們只要接到之後我們從實在署內以及我們跟協辦的臨床的藥學會裡面對於特定藥品就可以積極的去研析完做後續是否有替代的或者是真的有需要進口專案進口我再換個問法好了就是說"},{"start":15331.762,"end":15354.272,"text":"在像這些盤商其實我的理解有一些沒有參與的盤商他們可能不是不願意參與是因為他們有疑慮他們對於這個政策上沒有說明的很清楚所以就有些就沒有來參與我們樂見於就是說全台的這些盤商都一起來參與這個"},{"start":15356.913,"end":15378.984,"text":"對 我們非常非常希望他們共同參與其實資料越完整對於我們對任性的部分建立我覺得是更好的那我們對於互相的權利義務的部分我們不會是完全是在單方面的其實委員 之前委員也有特別提到我們希望是雙方去協調能夠達到資訊我們希望的是資訊上面能夠對接之後達到最好的涵蓋效果"},{"start":15379.529,"end":15398.314,"text":"對 所以我在這裡也是提醒就是說因為我們這個政策的發布截至今天為止我們其實理想上可以達到百分百的通報但是還沒有我想這一段的差距你們要找出原因 找出誘因去解決它"},{"start":15399.644,"end":15426.292,"text":"那另外就是說根據這個食藥署的發布聲明我們這次是由這個中華民國藥師公會全國聯合會他們一肩扛起來主責尋求這個合作的這個中盤藥商來參與通報那事實上呢大型的這個藥商可能具有研發生產製造那他們的成員呢並不是以這個執行藥師業務為主體的藥商那反而他們的藥品可能都是直接"},{"start":15427.793,"end":15446.928,"text":"與這個大型醫療院所的這個採購那這些大型的藥商直接相關的可能是健保合附的這個藥價那今天呢很可惜我們石部長沒有來因為部長他擔任過食藥健保署的署長他一定非常清楚那真正的27條之2的必要藥品"},{"start":15448.148,"end":15466.164,"text":"事實上實際上它才是最應該被監測的藥品單靠食藥署的職權我相信你們是很難做到即時有效的監測需要健保署在核定藥價的同時考慮提供一點差別性的誘因"},{"start":15467.745,"end":15482.925,"text":"那讓這些大型藥商有積極參與的這個態度那願意配合食藥署的監測系統那畢竟就是說我剛剛前面有提啦這個監測這個系統它的比如說監測"},{"start":15485.728,"end":15500.074,"text":"對 講到這些大型的藥商因為我們剛剛一直在講監測藥品監測藥品但是沒有原料就沒有藥品那我們是不是如果在與其我們在監測這個藥品的同時我們是不是應該對於這個大型藥廠我們應該監測的是原料"},{"start":15505.22,"end":15531.205,"text":"有的原料不是在國內那我們當然自己國內的原料藥這邊我們跟國內原料藥但你要製造的時候你有需求要製造的時候委員其實這就是幾個部分跟委員報告第一個是國內的原料藥廠商我們這邊其實已經對接上來我們也積極在協助我們自己國內的藥廠可以使用自己國內原料藥這是第一個部分那第二個部分有些藥廠其實現在全世界各國他們大概60%的原料藥都來自於印度或中國"},{"start":15532.345,"end":15553.927,"text":"所以這也是我們要強化國內韌性的其中每個國家都有這個問題那他們如果是來自其他國家或甚至來自某些單一國家的話那這也是為什麼我們這次請這些藥廠他們在供藥可能會出現半年內供藥可能會出現波動的這種情況要事先讓我們知道他假設因為他的原料供應有問題導致他的藥品不能生產這要提早讓我們知道讓我們來做相關的因應"},{"start":15554.981,"end":15571.146,"text":"跟委員進一步說一點補充那我們對於要求原料要他們的儲備其實我們有要求到半年的一個儲備期就是的量所以這部分事實上能夠在製造的過程中原料能夠盡量能夠不予匱缺"},{"start":15572.046,"end":15591.427,"text":"因為我想在整個我們在這裡盤點然後再通報再監測那當然這個衍生會衍生一些成本因為畢竟很多的大型醫療院所甚至他們如果這個藥的效期不到一年或一年半他們是拒收的"},{"start":15592.088,"end":15620.667,"text":"那所以我想在藥房的部分其實也是一樣所以這個通報或者我們接下來進一步有要求一個相當時間的一個庫存的時候我想都會衍生當然會衍生一些譬如說這個倉儲的成本或冷鏈的成本甚至一些人事盤點的成本那我想這個部分還有還有一種成本就是說就是這個銷毀的成本"},{"start":15622.368,"end":15637.313,"text":"那如果有這個庫存料那但我們後來沒有沒有如期去用到的時候他也必須要銷毀所以這樣的成本都必須要被考量進去那這些成本呢還有我們的"},{"start":15637.873,"end":15657.127,"text":"政府的配套其實都在影響到我們的就是國內的這些盤商參與通報系統的很多這些原因那所以這個部分本席特別今天在這裡也提出來希望你們可以一併的去做檢討考慮然後讓這個整個"},{"start":15661.261,"end":15676.97,"text":"讓大家的這個參與度可以再更積極一點那我想這個藥品監測他一定是不會層級的這個議題不是三級機關的問題所以這個部分我不曉得兩位有沒有同意我的看法同意"},{"start":15677.56,"end":15697.853,"text":"好 那再回到我們今天討論的藥事法的修訂因為很多的提案它都涉及了必要藥品的供應跟掌握通報還有因應機制事實上就是但我們到底有沒有真的盤點到這些大型醫院的必要藥品"},{"start":15698.913,"end":15726.083,"text":"這個部分我們可能也要好好去想一想事實上很難有一套好的通報系統是由立法院可以規範完全的因為通報系統的含掛率跟時效是檢驗系統最重要的兩大指標法律上只能管制但是法律不是誘因的工具"},{"start":15727.023,"end":15746.879,"text":"所以要滿足這兩大指標還是要靠衛福部規劃出誘因來讓這個涉及藥品涉及這必要必要藥品的大型廠商來主動通報那剛剛也提過這個通報所增加的成本所以衛福部你們應該有這個"},{"start":15749.327,"end":15777.919,"text":"要有單位負責每日監控通報訊息然後提早做出反應那這樣子呢我們的必要的這個藥品存量才能正確有效的被監測那我們民眾的這個用藥的健康需求才能真的被保障那我想我們如何進一步來規劃提升這個系統的通報誘因我不曉得本席剛剛提了幾個具體的建議你們是不是能夠接受然後回去"},{"start":15779.339,"end":15794.764,"text":"我們回去了解一下相關各剛剛提到的這些廠商他們還有什麼樣的需求我們來協助那其實我想我們也逐漸來走向就是自動化數位化的方式來做管理降低大家的相關的管理成本好 因為我相信次長在辦公室"},{"start":15796.525,"end":15817.459,"text":"大家會得到很多單位的訊息回報但是有時候或許實際上在執行面是有一些狀況或者需要改進的空間那也未必坐在辦公室就可以了解到我們都很積極參加學協會的相關活動大家都可以直接溝通得到好 那我等下也在這邊就我了解到的跟你們分享了好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15824.332,"end":15848.849,"text":"好 謝謝那 本次會議 詢問全部結束委員楊耀 盧憲一 所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在作為下決議第一 說明及詢問完畢第二 委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者 其從期所定"},{"start":15850.441,"end":15872.498,"text":"那我們現在請宣讀討論事項第1案要求司法部門條文修正查案等12案提案條文內容如果有修正的東西請一併先讀那這個與本法案無關之政務官員可以先行離席市長那個副市長你可以走嗎你可以喔"},{"start":15874.409,"end":15900.078,"text":"我不曉得我是在比後面的比那個呂戀池那個檢證你可以嗎我不曉得在會前有跟那個議事人員做一個報告的話大概跟我這邊比較好跟你們無關就好好沒關係好謝謝好各位可以用餐好不好各位可以可以用餐"},{"start":15902.154,"end":15928.573,"text":"來 宣讀人就先不要用餐其他的可以先用餐好 謝謝 請宣讀要事法部分條文修正草案行政院提案委員羅廷威等20人提案委員羅廷威等17人提案委員徐欣穎等20人提案委員劉介國等16人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員林月琴等18人提案委員郭怡琴等16人提案委員王鴻威等18人提案委員邱振軍等20人提案委員林倩琪等18人提案委員陳金輝等16人提案現行法條文對照表"},{"start":15930.222,"end":15944.379,"text":"行政院提案第二十七條之二原限刑法第一項拆分為二項並刪除原限刑法第二項第一項第三行其修改為許可證者應就該許可證藥品製造輸入及供應情形定期向中央衛生主管機關申報"},{"start":15945.66,"end":15961.697,"text":"第二項第一行增列前項藥商第三項增列逗號第五行修改為因自事時發生之次日起三十日內原第三項第一行起修改為第一項申報之方式內容範圍期間與前項通報之方式內容及其他相關事項予以現行法同"},{"start":15962.538,"end":15990.769,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案委員郭益勤等16人提案委員王宏威等18人提案委員陳金輝等16人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員邱振軍等20人提案委員林倩琦等18人提案第27條之二均與行政院提案同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第27條之二第一項第三行起修改為許可證者因每月就該許可證藥品之製造輸入供應情形及現有庫存量向中央衛生主管機關定期申報第三項第一行起修改為第一項申報之範圍與"},{"start":15992.23,"end":16008.75,"text":"期间及通报之方式与内容予以现行法同为0月请等18人提案第27条绝二第一项第四行莫具修删除定期二字第二项第五行首字改为因第三项修改为第一项申报与第二项通报之方式与内容"},{"start":16009.631,"end":16031.696,"text":"及第一項申報之範圍與其間與行政院提案同行政院提案第二七條之三專為衛生主管機關與知悉具有藥品需可證之藥品有供應不足之餘時得將該情形登錄於公開網站並得專核准該藥品或其替代藥品之製造或輸入不受第三十九條規定之限制"},{"start":16032.676,"end":16056.429,"text":"裝衛生主管機關為預防因應緊急或重大影響公共衛生事件得救前項具有藥品許可證之藥品或專案核准製造輸入之藥品限制其供應之範圍期間數量對象方式或其或為其他限制措施第一項登錄作業專案核准之申請條件審查程序審查基準及其他應遵行事項之辦法由裝衛生主管機關定之"},{"start":16057.253,"end":16082.594,"text":"委員故意請等16人提案 委員王宏威等18人提案 委員陳清惠等16人提案 委員王振旭等20人提案 委員邱振軍等20人提案委員林倩琦等18人提案第二七條之三 均與行政院提案同委員劉建國等16人提案第二七條之三 第三項第二行修改為審查基準與程序 予以行政院提案同委員林月琴等18人提案第二七條之三 第二項第三行修改為得就前項 原具有第六項修改為"},{"start":16083.474,"end":16112.129,"text":"對象與方式或為其他規制措施與行政院提案同行政院提案第48條之二第一項第三行修改為藥品之製造第四行修改為第39條規定之限制第一款第三行修改為藥品第二款修改為因應緊急或重大影響公共衛生情勢之需要第二項第二行修改為分號必要時得令申請者就為使用之藥品限期處理或回收第一款第一行修改為"},{"start":16113.129,"end":16137.985,"text":"已有取得许可证之药品或有第二款修改为紧急或重大影响第三款修改为药品经中央卫生主管机关评估确有影响用药第二项第二行修改为审查基准欲现行法同为刘建国等16人提案为郭玉琴的16人提案为王洪威等18人提案为王振旭的20人提案为邱振军的20人提案为林倩琪等18人提案第48条之二均与行政院提案同"},{"start":16138.846,"end":16155.645,"text":"委員聽委等實踐提案第48條之二第一項第三行修改為藥品製造第四行修改為第39條之限制第二款修改為因應緊急或重大增列第三款國家遇有戰爭天然災害或人民之生命身體健康遭遇"},{"start":16156.833,"end":16179.921,"text":"緊急危難有無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應之情形第二項第三行修改為藥品第二款修改為緊急或重大同時增列第四款國內無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應情勢已終結第二項修改為第一項登錄之作業及專案核准之申請條件審查程序核准基準及限制或規範其藥品之供應範圍"},{"start":16181.321,"end":16199.359,"text":"期间数量对象及方式等欲现行法同文成金会等16人提案第48条之二增列第一项第三款国家欲有战争天然灾害或人民之身体健康遭遇紧急危难有无法继续制造输入或不足供应之情形增列第二项第四款"},{"start":16201.298,"end":16219.955,"text":"4.國內無法繼續製造輸入或不足供應情形以終結,欲行政院提案同為寧願請等18人提案第48條之二第一項第四行末二字改為規範第二項第二行刪除分號必要時第一款第一行刪除或有合適之有字欲行政院提案同"},{"start":16220.715,"end":16233.177,"text":"委員羅廷偉等二十人提案第五十五條第一項第二行據莫修改為其出售行為之費用已不超出藥品相關製造及供應成本費用為原則欲現行法同"},{"start":16236.124,"end":16250.709,"text":"文許新穎等二十人提案第八十條刪除現行法第六款同時第一第七款予以現行法同文許新穎等二十人提案第九日四條配合第八十條的修正第三行第七款修改為第六款予以現行法同"},{"start":16255.936,"end":16279.97,"text":"行政院提案第96條之一第一項第四行修改為令期限期改善逗號借期第二項修改為藥商為依第27條之二第一項規定申報或申報之內容不實或為依同條第二項規定之期限通報者同時增列第三項藥商違反中央衛生主管機關依第27條之三第二項規定所為之"},{"start":16280.53,"end":16306.34,"text":"限制措施者由中央衛生主管機關處新台幣六萬元以上三十萬元以下罰款罰還並令其限期改善藉其未改善者按次處罰予以現行法同委員郭玉琴等十六人提案委員王宏威等十八人提案委員陳清惠等十六人提案委員王振旭等二十人提案委員邱振軍等二十人提案委員林倩琦等十八人提案第九十六條之一均與行政院提案同"},{"start":16308.358,"end":16323.497,"text":"為羅廷偉等17人提案第96條之一處第二項修改為藥商未依第27條之二第一項規定申報或申報之內容不實或未依規定之期限通報者予以現行法通"},{"start":16324.378,"end":16347.935,"text":"文流建國等16人提案第96條之一第二項第三行刪除同條二字第三項第二行刪除限規定二字第三行增加或規制三字第五行修改為並通知第六行末段修改為得按次處罰至其改善為止欲以行政院提案同"},{"start":16349.176,"end":16364.99,"text":"委宁愿请等18人提案第96条之一第三项第一行修改为要商规避妨碍或拒绝第三行修改为第二项所谓之限制或规范并删除由中央卫生主管机关等自予行政院提案同"},{"start":16368.484,"end":16377.708,"text":"行政院提案第106條修正第二項及第三項為本法中華民國95年5月30日修正公佈之條文至95年7月1日施行本法中華民國86年"},{"start":16386.756,"end":16409.577,"text":"5月7日修正公佈之第53條第107107年1月31日修正公佈之第4章之一第92條之一第100條及第100條之一圈年圈月圈日修正之第27條之二第27條之三及第96條之一其施行日期由行政院定之"},{"start":16410.697,"end":16425.415,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案委員陳金輝等16人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員邱振軍等20人提案委員林倩琦等18人提案第106條軍與行政院提案同委員羅廷偉等17人提案"},{"start":16429.949,"end":16452.686,"text":"委員劉建國等時任提案第106條增列第4項本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之第27條之二第27條之三及第96條之一施行日期由行政院定之予以現行法同宣讀完畢"},{"start":16459.732,"end":16460.018,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":16551.001,"end":16560.207,"text":"好 我們現在進行藥事法部份條文的修正草案等手段之主條審查那每個條文我們先請行政單位來做說明接著請委員表示意見好 藥事法27條之二"},{"start":16574.617,"end":16588.256,"text":"行政院所提的版本還有委員羅廷偉 劉建國 郭育秦王文威 陳清威還有王振旭 林月琴 邱政軍還有林倩琪來 請行政單位來做說明 謝謝"},{"start":16591.588,"end":16619.867,"text":"主席各位委員那針對我們藥事法第27條之二的修正我們簡單的建議修正的說明第一個我們修正第一項是為了加強監控必要藥品供應情形增訂持有必要藥品需可證之藥商應定其向中央衛生主管機關申報該類藥品之製造輸入及供應情形包含現有的庫存"},{"start":16621.908,"end":16638.959,"text":"過去每個月出貨量及未來製造輸入及供應之規劃二第一項有關因事前及事後通報規定我們一列至第二項並著修文字三"},{"start":16640.2,"end":16667.641,"text":"第二項一列制修正條文第二七條之三第一項規範原語刪除那第三項有關藥品登錄及專案核准之相關事項授權規定一列制修正條文第二七條之三第三項規範令增訂有關第一項申報之方式內容"},{"start":16669.283,"end":16692.084,"text":"範圍期間與第二項通報之方式及內容等相關事項授權中央衛生主管機關以辦法定之那各委員呢有關提案的版本內容呢與行政院提案的版本推動方向呢相同僅部分文字的著修建議依行政院"},{"start":16693.906,"end":16712.65,"text":"委員王振旭等20人委員郭玉琴等16人委員黃文威等18人委員周正軍等20人委員林倩琦等18人委員陳金輝等16人提案通過2 委員羅廷偉等17人"},{"start":16712.93,"end":16740.417,"text":"提案第二項是現行條文考量現行條文僅限必要藥品有供應不足之餘時得專案核准對於其他臨床有需求但非屬必要藥品者無專案核准之法源依據原建議一列並參採行政院版第二十七條之三條文以上"},{"start":16743.109,"end":16763.551,"text":"好 這個署長已經做這樣說明那各位有沒有其他的意見主條啦現在進到二十七條之二好這邊請說我覺得在食物執行上我早上在執行的時候就說要考量藥商的行政負擔"},{"start":16764.813,"end":16785.746,"text":"當然我覺得署長 次長已經講說就是在美劑申報可是我覺得是不是會對中小的藥商可能會不會有壓力所以我覺得在立法說明或者是後續的配套辦法當中還是要明確評估申報的頻率跟藥品的風險等級的關聯性以上"},{"start":16791.943,"end":16814.198,"text":"來 請說明謝謝委員 我們在這個二十七條之二我們這邊提到第三項這邊提到說申報方式內容範圍期間跟通報方式內容我們會另外訂那這邊其實我們的就是會試不同的藥品它的供應風險還有影響的程度那之後我們會再來訂這一個相關就是剛剛提到的申報的方式內容範圍期間還有方式跟它的這個申報的內容"},{"start":16814.958,"end":16836.456,"text":"那其實就是像委員所說的我們對於高風險有供應短缺或供應上面就是它有這個影響比較重大的藥品我們可能這邊頻率上會試情況加強但是如果有些藥品它其實一直都很穩定的話供應的部分是比較沒有這個壓沒有這個就是供應短缺的這個風險的那我們會讓它這個廠商的loading會變得比較小一點謝謝委員好 還有委員有請到意見嗎"},{"start":16842.284,"end":16861.561,"text":"那如果沒有我們第27條之後就建立依照行政院提案來做通過好謝謝繼續審查第27條之3那呃有對好沒關係我先宣導一下有一個修正的我知道"},{"start":16862.673,"end":16880.848,"text":"有行政院所提的二十七條之三 委員劉建國 郭玉琴 王文威 陳清輝 王振旭 李月琴 邱政軍 還有林倩琦那當然還有陳昭志委員所提的修正動議那還沒有印來 所以等一下好不好 等一下"},{"start":16890.094,"end":16911.986,"text":"還是可以請行政機關先做說明嗎主席 各位委員 針對第二七條之三要司法修正部分檢要說明如下二七條之三第一項由現行第二七條之二第二項規定遺列並著修文字以確保"},{"start":16912.606,"end":16927.673,"text":"具有藥品需可證之藥品有供應不宜之時 中央衛生主管機關得以登錄於公開網站並得專案核准該藥品或其替代藥品之製造或輸入"},{"start":16928.493,"end":16947.7,"text":"不受第39條規定之限制當藥品及其他具有許可證之替代藥品總供應量不足以供應當前或預期之需求量所定供應不足之情形並與說明"},{"start":16949.659,"end":16976.844,"text":"二為預期因應緊急或重大影響公共衛生事件降低藥商之顧慮鼓勵其餘藥品有供應不足之餘時基於公益挺身為藥品之專案製造或輸入並為立主管機關兼顧各地區藥品供應之均衡以確保民眾用藥之可靜性"},{"start":16977.964,"end":16999.64,"text":"并保障民众健康权益原增订第二项定名中央卫生主管机关得于就第一项具有许可证之药品或专案核准制造或输入之药品限制其供应之范围其间数量对象"},{"start":17000.24,"end":17018.613,"text":"或方式等限制措施三現行第27條之二第三項有關訂定藥品登錄及專案核准相關事項辦法之授權規定一列至第三項並著為文字修正"},{"start":17021.417,"end":17048.753,"text":"各委員提案版本內容與行政院提案版本推動方向相同 僅部分文字著修 建議一行政院委員王振旭等20人 委員郭育晴等16人 委員王洪威等18人 委員邱振鈞等20人 委員林倩琦等18人 委員陳金輝等16人提案通過 以上說明"},{"start":17050.576,"end":17062.93,"text":"多數委員提的文字都差不多一樣你為什麼唯獨就把我漏掉我的也是我就不太懂你對我們兩個到底什麼意見我覺得江組長第一次念的時候到第二次都是這樣子為什麼"},{"start":17064.428,"end":17090.805,"text":"你第一條 都不採納嗎 行政 報告委員兩個部分 建國委員的提案其實我們特別在裡面是最主要參採跟林衛全林委員的部分都是參採在裡面我們特別有參採在裡面那抱歉我們剛才念的時候在整理的部分有點遺漏的也請見諒哪有遺漏27之後就把我們漏掉了 27至3又把我們漏掉了"},{"start":17092.682,"end":17115.996,"text":"這個抱歉行政這邊整理的沒有很好對你不好的又不是我們兩個奇怪的抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉不好意思我們剛剛這個部分麻煩是不是我們可以補充就是說其實第27至2號第27至3號我們也參酌包含這個劉建國委員跟林月琴委員的版本謝謝針對劉建國委員的等16的提案的部分那我們有完整的參採"},{"start":17117.057,"end":17125.428,"text":"那以及王振旭委員以及林月琴林委員18人的提案特別針對裡面的內容以及規定的部分我們有一些進一步的參採以上說明"},{"start":17127.529,"end":17147.795,"text":"好 那個修正都已經提出來也請行政機關來做回應一下還是要 趙志偉要先說不然你先說 好 謝謝謝謝主席那個27條之三我們就是在修正中間先拿掉預防因為我們覺得這個預防這個範圍開得太寬了署長有聽到"},{"start":17153.538,"end":17177.193,"text":"這個預防範圍開得太寬了因為這個連因應緊急或重大影響公共安全事件大家就可以處理面對處理這個所有遇到的狀況那這個是然後這一條當中我們又修正了就針對要件很擔心因為不能履行契約被處罰的部分所以我們特別在修法說明我們放在修法說明的地方新增第三點"},{"start":17177.993,"end":17204.576,"text":"藥商院遵循中央衛生主管機關一本規定所為之供應限制措施以至於為能夠履行契約就是藥品供應義務者他們對醫院主要是對醫院的部分是基於法律或主管機關依法所為之情證處分應該屬於不可歸屬之藥商之室友那其責任歸屬應由這個民法相關規定認定署長或是次長您有瞭解就是我這個修正動議的一個"},{"start":17205.757,"end":17218.712,"text":"重點嗎是了解這個就把預防我們認為太寬了太寬把預防兩個字先拿掉其實當然預防跟因應也是很類似啦只是說我們這邊寫了預防是說當我們事先已經發現會有這樣的現象發生那他"},{"start":17220.934,"end":17249.247,"text":"沒有到因應緊急可是它預防後續可能會有重大影響公共衛生事件所以還是希望委員可以保留預防這個文字那但是也像剛剛提到的其實要去啟動這一個專案輸入事實上它在整個程序上面我們後面包含了我們這個條件範圍限制措施都會再去做執法規的處理另外一個部分就是說要啟動這個事情還要再跟相關的藥廠去做相關的溝通所以是不是委員可以容許我們把預防兩個字留著"},{"start":17249.847,"end":17274.884,"text":"但是如果不留著你們處理起來會有困難嗎總是有一個空間啦因為有的時候是事先發現可能有這個風險那但是我們這個讓我們預防先做一個先做準備但是這個預防就無止境了可以可以到很遠很大來解釋就跟委員報告說其實因為要準備這個事情的時候他事實上如果我們要去做真的要來啟動專案進口我想委員也清楚啟動專案進口這一邊"},{"start":17275.825,"end":17302.584,"text":"包含了跟现有要证的厂商要去做沟通以及询问另外一个部分就是包含说这个还有合价的部分要经过我们健保署的供你会所以我想委员这边也不用担心说我们因为预防了两个字会后续有把那个权限开的太大因为他还是要有相关的条件才能够处理只是说预防因为我想委员也晓得在临床工作上我们还是会有一些可能他我们担心他发生我们事先先做一个准备这个程序了"},{"start":17302.924,"end":17326.438,"text":"不是的您知道一旦被列為那個就是專案進口的藥品你知道後續的管理很麻煩嗎你知道醫療院所病人同意書簽署管理等等所以不能隨便開啟我們很清楚所以不能隨便開隨便開後面很麻煩所以前面這邊我們把預防寫上去是說至少讓我們假設預先認為有這個可能性我們先做準備啦讓我們有個比較有彈性"},{"start":17328.021,"end":17356.273,"text":"是不是委員可以容許我們把預防寫進去我們再思考一下因為我們覺得專案進口是個特例是個非常特例中的特例但是如果很廣泛的把它放在裡面為了讓行政機關很安心我覺得有時候對廠商或供應者也不是非常公平那對後續的醫師處方跟病人它後面的程序還很多這是額外你也不能免除專案進口有它的專案進口的一個規範連使用處方都要病人同意書"},{"start":17358.314,"end":17374.943,"text":"然後醫師還要填寫很多就醫院還要填寫很多資料欸都不能免除欸就像剛剛所說的而且我們之後我們後面還有藥害救濟法要修啦所以說其實這邊當然我們也尊重委員這邊的決定啦那我們事實上這邊放這個預防是說是不是能有一個比較彈性的部分"},{"start":17375.743,"end":17391.693,"text":"再補充就是說其實這一塊也在跟各位委員說明這邊我們做了這樣的我們可以得救這個有藥品休克症或專案核准製造輸入的藥品來限制供應範圍期間數量對象方式這個事實上也是一定程度保障廠商因為避免說廠商他"},{"start":17392.634,"end":17415.246,"text":"愿意协助我们来做专案进口或制造然后再跟其他的厂商在相关供货这个过程中能够有一个比较好的衔接不要造成说是不是有些厂商协助我们就后来整个市场在恢复运作的过程中没有考虑到他们之前的衔接因为我觉得应该是足够啦预防应该是足够让你去处理这些需要处理的状况那请问我们的那个说明的要指的部分呢"},{"start":17416.465,"end":17433.701,"text":"您可以回應一下嗎因為你要廠商配合你嘛早上諮詢我講他要配合國家政策做這些事情那你要給他你要給他有一個他基本的保障吧因為他是為了配合國家政策但他會造成謝謝委員說明這個我想文字上面我們尊重那預防就拿掉吧 署長"},{"start":17442.717,"end":17466.427,"text":"因為你後續大家整個醫院的處方管理病人都要involve進來市長可能不知道後續的那個我可不可以先講一下因為我覺得第27條之三前面已經有講到說因為你已經知悉具有藥品症的藥品有供應不足之餘了那從預防角度上來看"},{"start":17467.028,"end":17482.736,"text":"的確如果前面已經有一些調查的話那當然你要因應這種狀況所以我覺得預防放進去事實上是沒有太大的問題因為已經前端就已經寫得非常的清楚所以當初我的是比較擔心的事實上是說要補充什麼在何種"},{"start":17484.074,"end":17501.808,"text":"極端的情境下來啟動這權利事實上是避免常態性的干預自由貿易可是前面如果已經講說你已經調查貿易不足了那我們現在還不做嗎那從預防角度上來看的確要做可是沒有這個字的話要等到事情發生才來做嗎我覺得那就來不及了以上"},{"start":17506.565,"end":17514.954,"text":"這個就要看我們在講的預防我們的因應緊急或重大影響公共事件這個因應是不是有包含事先預防的動作這樣子"},{"start":17520.179,"end":17537.221,"text":"報告這邊我們針對已經有些事前的調查其實他就是一種因應的態度所以如果沒有預防這兩個字對於我們在實務上面操作應該是還是可以一致的一個進行了所以我們可以接受這個預防這兩字可以刪除"},{"start":17541.892,"end":17569.98,"text":"其實就是這個看法規解釋上面如果我們的預防這個動作算不算也是因應之一啦那其實為了避免掛一漏案我們才會把預防這個文字寫在上面但是就像剛剛其實委員所說的我們因為前面要有知悉我們具有關這個藥品許可證的藥品有供應不足之餘而且這個情形我們要把它寫在公開網站才能夠後續去啟動這個動作所以它其實這個程序不是一個"},{"start":17570.74,"end":17593.952,"text":"就是說隨我們行政主管機關去處理的動作市長因為我們四天前才在市要署開了這個一個協調會嘛公協會都到齊了他們幾乎好幾個代表都有提出這個疑慮後來我不知道署長你是後來才到嘛我不知道你聽到了這個訴求沒有因為他們還是會很擔心嘛如果不影響你們在行政上的一個責任那就不一定要放進去"},{"start":17594.732,"end":17616.315,"text":"我想我們剛才做進一步的是可以可以接受把預防兩個字刪除那天您就是到食藥署去啊大家去那邊協調是另外就是針對剛才立法說明的第三項的部分那謝謝委員的指導我們可以接受上面的所述有關於藥傷因遵循中央衛生機關等等的相關事項以上"},{"start":17619.011,"end":17637.849,"text":"好 陳教授委員的修正定位第三項是不是多一個核准之匯足是 謝謝委員這邊幫我們補充就是我們原來的文字裡面沒有寫到核准之廢止那核准之廢止這邊大概有一個後面能夠廢止掉的這個動作"},{"start":17639.65,"end":17663.137,"text":"謝謝委員的提案因為針對我們已經所謂專案核准進來的但是中間假如有重大需要去修正提早要所謂的廢止他因為有真的有時候進來之後才發現的一些異常那我們是可以接受這樣子的一個修正動議以上好所以就照陳教授委員所提的這個修正動議"},{"start":17666.764,"end":17687.885,"text":"行政院提案及委員陳昭之所提的修正動議修正通過你那個核准之會是前面要多一個頓號啦好那我們就依照行政院提案及委員陳昭之王議員劉建國所提的修正動議通過可以啦好謝謝謝謝委員修正通過修正通過"},{"start":17689.912,"end":17706.358,"text":"好 繼續審查 行政院所提48條之二那48條之二也有委員 羅廷偉 劉建國 郭益晴黃文輝 陳清輝 王振旭 林月琴邱政軍 林倩琦 齁 所提的這個條文的修正 請行政機關來做回應"},{"start":17707.346,"end":17722.447,"text":"好有關於建議修正條文的說明有第一個部分針對本條裡面的藥物的部分我們先修正為藥品因為物是物品以前在所謂的醫材法的關係已經另外拉出來所以修正為藥品"},{"start":17724.049,"end":17744.629,"text":"第二部分我們有考量了事務上的關注公共衛生的情勢不僅著重於事件之急迫性結果事件本質的屬重大者更有其實害結果的發生前要防患未然所以我們舉個例子像一些阿米巴力疾或引球菌的感染"},{"start":17745.169,"end":17765.932,"text":"或者是我們的國人要負防熱病的高風險地區這些事情可能還沒有發生但是如果發生就會重大因此原修正第一項第二款面增訂因應重大影響公共衛生情勢之需要由中央衛生主管機關亦得專案核准特定的藥品製造跟輸入"},{"start":17766.633,"end":17782.286,"text":"那另外就是第二項的配合第一項跟第二款第一項第二款的修正呢修正為第二款的規定那區域的部分呢我們藥品的查驗的登記的審查準則方面的也會做進一步的修正以上說明"},{"start":17785.272,"end":17799.827,"text":"來 請王子旭委員主席我先請主席再確認一下有關於剛剛二十七條之三的修正動議是 已經有依照這個陳昭志委員所提的修正動議做處理而且通過"},{"start":17800.547,"end":17821.586,"text":"不過他也在這個立法說明裡面也有增加第三條第三條好像剛剛沒有宣布是不是也要把他納為立法說明增加條例在裡面這個請主席確認一下立法說明的第三項藥生因遵循中央"},{"start":17824.433,"end":17842.794,"text":"中央組織官依本條規定所為之供應限制措施自未能依契約履行藥品供應義務者系基於法律或主管機關應依法所為之行政處分屬不可歸則於藥商之事由其責任歸屬應依民法相關規定論之"},{"start":17845.489,"end":17869.133,"text":"其實原來我們的這個法原這次去修了之後事實上就是剛剛跟委員所說之後廠商因應我們在緊急或重大事件的時候讓我們用專案進口來做藥品的調度這個情況之下廠商他們本來就因為我們已經開始進到專案進口的調度了所以廠商這邊他在原來的這個跟原來的機構之間的藥品供應的"},{"start":17870.273,"end":17890.266,"text":"合約事實上就由我們這邊來先做了處理所以現行的法是應該說我們這個修法之後事實上就已經賦予這樣的法源那當然委員這邊為了要保障藥商能夠更有信心不要說覺得這個情況之下還有兩難那委員這邊在文字在說明欄裡面增加這樣的文字我想我們予以尊重"},{"start":17892.995,"end":17908.559,"text":"那48條之後委員有沒有其他意見來請王振旭委員謝謝再度發言有關於這一條因為現在是重大影響"},{"start":17909.707,"end":17932.259,"text":"那有委員說要重大不需要影響所以這個差別不知道主管機關這邊針對於重大影響跟重大之間如果說可以能夠講得更清楚的話我相信對於行政院板這邊的支持應該大家會更同意以上"},{"start":17934.525,"end":17951.936,"text":"謝謝委員這邊提到因為我們在我們的說明裡面也稍微我們剛有補充到就是說有一些部分他可能本身那個事件並不是重大的事件但是他後續可能會產生重大影響就像我們剛舉例說可能包含國人他前往一些黃熱病高風險區或者是他預防接種需要等等"},{"start":17952.336,"end":17976.907,"text":"所以我們這邊用的是我們本來委員這邊提到說是不是用重大可是我們做重大影響比較像是就是說這個major impact它後續會有一個impact比較嚴重那它本身不是一個major issue但是它可能導致後續的impact比較大那是不是這邊能夠讓我們用重大影響這個文字也就是它可能在國內並不是重大公共衛生情勢但是因應"},{"start":17978.368,"end":18003.196,"text":"他可能如果沒有處理沒有協助來完成或協助這樣子的一個藥品的處理的話後續可能會有重大的公共事件的影響所以我們在影響上面把它加上去 以上說明好 因為王委員你也是重大影響所以好 這邊就不是 他寫這樣好"},{"start":18009.362,"end":18021.691,"text":"那我們就照行政院提案來通過啦好 謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝各位委員所提供的文字跟意見 謝謝好 繼續來審查羅庭委員所提的第55條請行政院機關表示意見"},{"start":18027.861,"end":18045.789,"text":"55條文字跟委員說明就是說55條這邊的文字我們是應該是已經放在第27條之二跟27條之二的27條之三的文字裡面所以這個部分是否能夠建議維持現行條文暫不予修正"},{"start":18048.427,"end":18069.313,"text":"好那首先還是謝謝啦因為剛剛有正面回應但是有幾個細項還是要就叫這個次長因為剛剛沒有回應到我的部分所以我再要再了解一下就是食藥署回函修法請衛福部回函給我更正前函的一個論述這部分可以嗎"},{"start":18070.819,"end":18081.924,"text":"報委員因為其實說實在現在數位時代之前發過去的文我們大概就是這樣那但是我們可以再發一個文給委員做說明好不好好謝謝那另外那個類推適用的一個說明也希望更正"},{"start":18082.823,"end":18110.024,"text":"類推試用也是一樣就是說當時我想委員其實我們當時發當時那個狀況之下我們用類推試用那我們也是認為說需要再去補正相關的法源所以這次我們提出修法那我們還是是不是沒關係剛剛您這樣的說法就是請他用公文的部分回覆好我們再給一個函給委員那最後就是今天的書面報告因為已經公開在這個立法院的網站上了所以我希望今天的書面報告第五頁第二項重寫送到立法院謝謝"},{"start":18119.029,"end":18140.379,"text":"蛤 怎樣市長他查一下 可以嗎程序上我們想請市主席我們其實因為已經公報這個還有重寫今天的公報的這種程序嗎書面報告有錯誤所以我覺得應該要再更正那什麼報告都可以用來考目的第五頁的第二項 謝謝這個報告"},{"start":18148.097,"end":18148.521,"text":"我们下周"},{"start":18151.328,"end":18180.255,"text":"我相信市長這邊是做得到的因為我的合理應該我的要求應該也很合理並不是就是說硬要沒有委員跟委員報告說第五頁第二項其實是跟委員做這次的條文的說明那剛剛委員所提到的在2024年當時我們在專案進口相關的文字或專案進口相關的函式的部分剛剛委員所要求的那兩份我們會另外再行文給委員這樣說明可不可以"},{"start":18180.595,"end":18199.765,"text":"就是因為你有前面那兩個說明了所以我覺得你今天的書面報告可能寫得不夠完善所以應該要把這個時空背景要補上報告委員我們第5頁這個是針對委員的條文做說明通常沒有再去補這個部分的就是通常是提供給委員參考這樣子這個好"},{"start":18211.338,"end":18215.983,"text":"這個報告是針對委員所提的修正條文做一些回應"},{"start":18216.847,"end":18243.902,"text":"因為他這樣子的說法他寫在書面報告裡面會顯得第55條修正的時候感覺好像我們無理取鬧我覺得這個部分對我來說我沒辦法接受沒有報告委員我們其實是委員我們這邊說到的就是說其實為了要補足現行條文不足所以其實就是委員所跟委員所提案的內容跟精神是一樣的啦不好意思我們並沒有認為委員有怎麼樣不合理的要求啦"},{"start":18247.273,"end":18266.053,"text":"是不是這樣好不好委員我們在第5頁的第2項這一邊我們的文字我們把它修正為考量藥物樣品括號如個人自用藥物樣品專案進口括號仍應以不得出售為原則本次修法涵蓋委員提案意旨以修正"},{"start":18266.934,"end":18286.057,"text":"要事法第27條之二及第27條之三條文明定非屬必要藥品而有供應不足之餘時得專案核准之法源依據補足現行條文不足之處據點可以嗎我們把委員的這個就是說我們把涵蓋跟參考委員的意思我們往前拉就是事實上是謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":18287.625,"end":18310.464,"text":"好 那也希望以上這些可以列入會議記錄我剛剛的文字 列入公報啦所以對啊對啊 社長有回應你的錄音也有會議記錄啊他都會逐字啦 我剛剛已經把逐字念完了社長謝謝 謝謝 不好意思 正面回應謝謝您喔 謝謝好 所以55條我們就建議維持現行條文謝謝 謝謝主席那接下來我們處理徐信偉所提的第80條"},{"start":18312.492,"end":18332.743,"text":"有關於徐委員第80條部分特別提到要刪除第6款要求藥品資訊變更需回收驗章之規定有助維持藥品之持續供應減少藥品供應中斷之風險我們競表支持也建議依委員徐欣穎等20人的提案能夠通過"},{"start":18333.82,"end":18362.564,"text":"好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有 我們就依照徐經緯所提的提案通過那繼續處理徐經緯所提的第九十四條那有關第九十四條部分我們依照同樣上一條的理由我們予以支持 配合前一條的修改所以還是就是依委員徐經緯所提"},{"start":18366.187,"end":18389.24,"text":"徐信宇等候所請提案通過好第7款變第6款謝謝委員那繼續審查行政院所提96條之一那委員羅廷偉 劉建國 郭昱晴王榮威 陳清威王正旭 林月琴 邱振鈞 林倩琪還有陳昭志委員所提的修正動議立案"},{"start":18390.768,"end":18407.995,"text":"那而行政單位針對建議配合修正條文第二七條之二第一項規定與第二項增訂必要藥品許可證之持有藥商未依該條第一項之規定申請申報或申報不實"},{"start":18409.035,"end":18409.876,"text":"來 委員 林月琴"},{"start":18435.72,"end":18459.994,"text":"我想就叫就是你們所謂申報內容不實會公布公司名稱及罰款6到30萬那個申報內容不實的定義是什麼在立法說明有沒有講得比較清楚舉例原本以為三個月後新的原料會進口可是因為臨時空運問題或是原料供應商突然查場"},{"start":18461.355,"end":18483.816,"text":"過原料無法如期進口的話這樣算申報不實嗎這是第一個第二個對於情節重大的定義是不是可以更明確一點如果藥商是因不可抗力譬如說全球的供應鏈斷鏈那導致資訊掌握錯誤是否會有所謂的免罰或減輕的一個空間所在以上"},{"start":18485.58,"end":18512.81,"text":"先跟委員報告就是說其實如果他是不可救責而且他提早他在他能夠知道資訊就能夠立刻來通報我們的話這個部分其實廠商的責任會比較小死的那個呢他有時候是因為原本就是臨時空運問題或者是原料的那供應商突然查場不過的話他就是原料沒有辦法如期的能夠進口的話這樣算不算申報不實"},{"start":18513.83,"end":18527.12,"text":"他如果是能夠有明確的證據是他不可克責於他他前段沒有辦法供應提早讓我們知道其實我們需要其實也跟委員報告說我們這次的修法事實上是我們提早知道之後我們才有辦法啟動因應不要說他不告訴我們然後"},{"start":18528.571,"end":18554.369,"text":"時間到了發現沒有藥品了我們主要重點是在這邊所以事實上我們的罰會以罰的部分事實上是少的前端希望能夠建立這個體制才是重點那其他我請署長補充因為針對行政法法第七條裡面已經有規定了所以違反行政法上義務之行為非出於故意或過失者不予處罰所以針對這部分我們會進一步的去針對這部分予以回應講"},{"start":18557.304,"end":18575.371,"text":"來 請問志旭委員是 剛剛葉前委員他其實想要比較確認的是這個不死是不誠實呢還是不一致不誠實他的對象要處罰的內容是不是一樣不誠實所以理論上應該是不誠實嘛可是我們擔心的是說如果不一致怎麼辦"},{"start":18575.831,"end":18593.644,"text":"不一致他如果是不能克責於他他當時的資訊就是那樣子那他事後有新的資訊讓他再更正給我們說我後來得到的資訊他又變動了比方說像COVID那個時候COVID那個時候很多時候是某一個國家本來可以供貨本來可以運來結果他後來因為他們國家Lockdown"},{"start":18594.184,"end":18623.844,"text":"船没有办法出来那这个我们不能克折于厂商所以像这个就不是他申报不实是他没有办法他真的出不来可是他给我们这个资讯让我们可以及早因应这个法我们这次修正是希望能够达到这样的效果对 所以我说立法说明可不可以稍微还是要待过否则的话真的像一个刚刚讲不诚实跟不一致有时候是这样有落差那他是不是有一个因为他申报的时候你发现这样的状况的时候那有什么样的一个程序可以去减少掉他最后被你们开罚"},{"start":18625.164,"end":18641.769,"text":"因為如果我們在教育現場一般來講都有些調查那你們現在這個狀況我不知道就只是講一個申報內容不實或是或沒有一第二項規定的那個期限去通報者就會你們就會有開罰因為這個罰還也不是太輕6到30萬以上好請趙志偉"},{"start":18650.015,"end":18678.746,"text":"謝謝 因為這個案子我也有提這個求生動議 那早上有跟次長我們在詢答的時候也有做了一些交外見跟討論 能夠影響藥品的供應的因素實在太多了 本來不該不是說只有單一這個廠商能夠負責任的 牽動的甚至是醫療體系 甚至是健保制度很多幾乎沒有改變 那國際的狀況等等那這些因素我們是就是寫在目前在96條之一的立法說明的第二"},{"start":18679.447,"end":18685.62,"text":"第二點的後段為避免因供應限制措施之認定或適用產生爭議"},{"start":18687.854,"end":18705.221,"text":"次長跟署長有掌握我念的這一段並兼顧行政處分之正確性與比例原則中央衛生主管機關於執行前接處罰時應依行政程序法相關規定給予要賞陳述的意見之機會並提供適當之救濟途徑"},{"start":18711.314,"end":18731.776,"text":"我們那天 我們四天前在座的協調會大概也提到各種各式各樣的狀況 那早上這個我想也讓這個次長能夠瞭解有各種他無法自己來負責任的 不可直接歸屬的歸屬的他的責任 那是不是我這樣的立法說明就是屬這邊 衛福部是不是可以接受"},{"start":18732.496,"end":18751.715,"text":"謝謝委員提供文字很清楚那我想是不是也跟剛剛岳勤委員和王振旭委員所擔心的是那個狀況是蠻類似就這樣會有一個比較明確化的一個說明那我們尊重委員這樣子的修正文字就是有適當的一個救濟途徑給予他們就是說明陳述的機會"},{"start":18753.895,"end":18776.353,"text":"署長你OK嗎我沒有看到我看到次長點頭了我們這樣的程序不會delay他的處理嗎對不對不會說因為他就一直在跑這個相關的後續的這個委員這邊所提到的不會因為他一直在處理這個相關的行政程序delay我們後續的處置嗎這兩項如果我們是分開處理對我們可以接受謝謝委員的提案"},{"start":18776.733,"end":18784.402,"text":"好 那就是修正動議 主席大概正在忙 應該知道就按照這個修正寫在那個立法說明裡面"},{"start":18785.942,"end":18808.654,"text":"OK嗎因為行政程序法其實本來就都有在我們要做行政裁罰的時候相關的相關的行為人他可以有陳述意見的機會跟後續的救濟土地本來在法律上如果講對於藥商而言那個健保署衛福部跟食藥署是大到不行他們大概如果我們沒有一個具體的白紙黑字在這裡面"},{"start":18810.515,"end":18838.144,"text":"確實是如此所以一定就是說希望我還沒有放在那個就母法就是說在立法說明裡面盡量把他們這也是我們那天在開協調會他們也很擔憂的事情我就寫在立法說明裡面好我想雖然行政程序法本來就有相關規定不過委員在說明欄裡面明定可能也可以讓我們的包含剛剛其他委員的疑慮還有藥商這邊的擔憂可以獲得一些比較明確的文字上的指引"},{"start":18838.524,"end":18861.57,"text":"那我們尊重委員這邊的文字修改 謝謝他是沒有文字修改所以還是要依照行政院提案通過有說明欄補充對 說明欄就依照陳昭志委所提的說明的意思納入在你們的提案說明裡面好 OK好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 那我們就這樣通過 接下來處理"},{"start":18863.249,"end":18877.53,"text":"對 行政院所提的106 那委員劉建國 郭玉琴 陳金輝 王振旭 邱振軍 林健喜等所提的修正條文請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":18879.576,"end":18907.217,"text":"針對委員的提案那我們針對第三項規定修正之上開修正條文施行的日期由行政院定之以為緩衝所以第一項未修正第二項前段規定該次修正之第53條施行日期由行政院定之原一列到第三項一併的規範那鑑於法律案之修正公佈日期"},{"start":18908.438,"end":18928.575,"text":"較利於一般民眾查閱將原定三讀日期修正為總統公佈日期 以上說明好 這個應該各位沒有其他意見了那我們就照行政院所提的提案通過好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 現在處理要司法部分條文修正草案互代區既有兩案 請一併宣讀"},{"start":18931.854,"end":18954.972,"text":"附帶決議一本次修正條文所稱緊急或重大影響公共衛生事件涉及供應限制措施之啟動其適用範圍判斷基準及啟動程序對藥品供應體系與相關利害關係人影響甚具先機關於後續訂定相關辦法時應參著世界衛生組織國際衛生條例二零零五年及其後續修正所揭示之公共衛生風險分級與評估原則"},{"start":18956.889,"end":18971.699,"text":"包括國際關注公共衛生緊急事件PHEIC等概念就前開事項與具體規範提案委員 陳昭之 王育敏 劉建國 羅廷偉好 我們先請行政單位有意見"},{"start":18973.074,"end":18997.91,"text":"謝謝委員的文字這個文字也謝謝委員跟我們一樣就是我們也認為說其實要參著世界衛生組織的相關這一個風險評估以及公共國際關注公共衛生緊急事件的相關的概念好那我們跟委員的立場一樣那我們也尊重委員的附帶決議文字謝謝次長你在早上就也提到了國際上其實有一些相關定義所以我們也就這個參考來提出修正動議附帶決議附帶決議好謝謝次長"},{"start":19000.899,"end":19009.67,"text":"好那各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就照這樣 照案通過好謝謝繼續宣讀第二案抱歉附帶決議二"},{"start":19011.5,"end":19033.635,"text":"鑑於藥品供應任性除藥品製造輸入及流通端外亦與醫療院所實際使用訂購及替代用藥安排密切相關且醫療院所藥品使用量及申報資料涉及健保給付與醫療體系管理事項非單一機關全線所能完整處理原請衛生福利部於後續訂定第27條之三相關辦法及配套措施時"},{"start":19034.395,"end":19060.349,"text":"整合食品藥物管理署中央健康保險署及醫事司之全責建立跨機關及跨利害關係人之溝通與討論平台納入藥品製造或供應者及醫療院所等意見共同研議必要藥品使用資訊之掌握方式與協作機制以完善藥品供應韌性及整體制度設計提案委員 陳昭志 王玉敏 劉建國 羅廷偉宣讀完畢好 請行政單位表示意見"},{"start":19061.34,"end":19088.958,"text":"我想文字上面我們尊重委員的文字好謝謝那各位有沒有其他意見好謝謝主席我再就補充說明一下因為第一個大家都了解了就是說要品缺貨我們都怕要品缺貨但不是那麼單一的因素大家有共同來承擔也感謝大家對這個部分的認知那第二個部分因為我們提到這個有很多的其他因素包括這個醫療院所他使用的狀況申報的情況還有健保的給付等等"},{"start":19089.398,"end":19117.526,"text":"所以我也是說讓這不是食品藥物管理署能夠獨自承擔的所以是也是在這樣的考量下我們才覺得這個溝通平臺溝通和討論平臺應該也納入醫術師跟健保署早上我也提到說希望他們都在場一起討論然後也納入藥品製造或供應者及醫療院所等就所有的這個相關利害相關人都在這邊能夠做一個溝通因為斷藥是單一因素是個系統性的因素那就是說如果"},{"start":19118.246,"end":19146.273,"text":"衛福部能夠接受我們這個負債決議文字上都可以嗎市長可以嗎我們其實在這一段時間從過去大概這兩年以來我們的相關藥品供應的時候都是會跟相關學協會而且不只是食藥署還跟健保署因為健保署手上掌握有最多各個醫院藥品申報的數量所以我們會我們都持續有這樣的制度那負債決議其實就是跟我們現行的這個做法是很"},{"start":19146.693,"end":19175.465,"text":"是一樣的 好 那也謝謝委員的文字 謝謝好 謝謝 那各位委員沒有其他意見 我們就召喚通過好 現在作為下決議 要視法部門條文修正常案等12案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報 院會討論那院會討論時有留召集委員見果補充說明請問本案是我須交黨團協商好 我們不須交黨團協商本法案法制用於調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供"},{"start":19177.745,"end":19204.094,"text":"那現在要來進行討論四項第二案要害究計法第三條及第二十八條條文修正查案等十案請提案請宣讀提案條文內容若條若有修正同意請一併宣讀現在進行逐條審查每個條文先請行政單位說明接續再請委員表示意見"},{"start":19205.7,"end":19207.265,"text":"有關藥害救濟法"},{"start":19209.256,"end":19235.067,"text":"請先宣讀條文內容不好意思要害就計法第三條及第二十八條行政院提案委員羅廷偉等十六人提案委員劉建國等十六人提案委員王振旭等十九人提案委員林月琴等十八人提案委員郭宇晴等十六人提案委員王宏威等十八人提案委員邱振軍等十九人提案委員林倩琦等十八人提案委員翁曉仁等十七人提案憲新法條文對照表"},{"start":19236.087,"end":19263.949,"text":"行政院提案第三條除第二款第三行增列或依藥事法第27條之三第一項第48條之二第一項第二款規定取得專案核准第五款修正為五障礙值符合身心障礙者權益保障法相關規定鎖定身心障礙類別程度分級者但不包括因心理因素所導致之情形欲現行法同文奪廳委等16人提案第三條除第二款第三行增列二"},{"start":19266.832,"end":19274.471,"text":"合法藥物指零有主管機關合法藥物許可證或依藥事法第27條之二第48條之二取得專案核准"},{"start":19275.495,"end":19301.983,"text":"等予以現行法同 委員翁曉琳等十七人提案第三條 與委員羅廷偉等十六人提案第三條同 委員劉建國等十六人提案第三條 處第二款第三行修正為要事法第二七條之三地向第四八條之二地向第二款 與委員羅廷偉等十六人提案第三條同 委員林月琴等十八人提案第三條 與委員劉建國等十六人提案第三條同 委員王宏威等十八人提案第三條 處第二款第六行"},{"start":19303.26,"end":19329.611,"text":"增列規定二字外予以為劉建國等十六人提案第三條同為王振旭等十九人提案為顧逸群等十六人提案為邱振軍等十九人提案為林倩琪等十八人提案第三條據行政院提案同行政院提案第二十八條增列第二項本法中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正之第三條第二款有關要事法第二十七條是三地項規定之施行日期由行政院定之予以先行法同"},{"start":19330.371,"end":19356.324,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案 委員王振旭等19人提案委員郭益勤等16人提案 委員王宏威等18人提案委員邱振軍等19人提案 委員林倩琦等18人提案第二十八條 均與行政院提案同宣讀修正動議第三條第二款第三行修改為獲依要事法第二七條之三第四八條之二第一項第二款"},{"start":19357.612,"end":19368.262,"text":"與以現行法同提案委員陳金輝 蘇清泉 廖偉祥 羅廷偉宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們就針對"},{"start":19371.83,"end":19387.922,"text":"行政委員所提第三條那委員有羅廷偉 劉建國 王振勳 林月井 郭育琴 洪文威邱振軍 林倩琪 翁曉琳還有陳昭志委員所提的修正 對不起陳勤惠委員所提的修正第一案請行政機關先表示意見"},{"start":19388.362,"end":19402.6,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員那配合這個這個第三條主要是配合藥事法部分條文修正草案的修正條文第27條之三第一項跟第48條之二第一項第二款來增訂特定情形的專案製造或輸入藥品"},{"start":19403.681,"end":19422.329,"text":"考量就是說因為他是為了要保障這些專案進口的藥品也是為了因應普遍的醫療需求以及特殊狀況要來保障所有民眾用藥權益好所以我們修正第二款的合法藥物的定義那讓這些依照我們相關程序在我們的藥事法修正之後他因為"},{"start":19423.189,"end":19437.405,"text":"許可證藥品供應不足或者是有緊急或重大影響公共衛生情勢而專案核准製造或輸入的藥品它也是合法藥品合法藥品合法藥物的定義那也就適應適用我們藥害救濟制度"},{"start":19438.106,"end":19459.474,"text":"那委員這邊所提到在身心障礙這個部分我們主要是以原來行政院版本是以配合身心障礙者保護法的名稱那修正為身心障礙者權益保障法所以我們用的是這樣子的文字那也尊重委員這邊提出來的文字修正的這個考量那第一款第三款第四款跟第六款沒有修正以上報告好各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":19471.431,"end":19489.879,"text":"好 沒有 那我們就依照行政院提案通過好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 繼續審查行政院所提第28條委員劉建國 王振旭 郭育琴王文威 邱政軍 林倩琦還有現行法第28條請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":19491.856,"end":19516.483,"text":"有關於鑰匙法第28條修正的部分修正草案之修正條文是第106條第三項明該修正草案之修正條文第二七條第三第一項之施行日期由行政院定之另外第三條第二款配合鑰匙法的相關規定"},{"start":19517.623,"end":19545.086,"text":"是同日施行那各位委員的提願版本跟行政院版本是相同 以上說明好 各位委員不得有意見 好 謝謝好 做以下決議要在究竟以往第3條 第28條條文修正草案等實案審查完畢並按鄰近審查報告提報 院會討論 議會討論本案時由劉昭吉委員劉建國補充說明那請問本案是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":19546.786,"end":19562.562,"text":"好不需要謝謝那本法案法制用於調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供那本的會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝周委謝謝各位委員謝謝謝謝各位委員謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}