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請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處因為現場的委員未達議決人數的三人那議事錄就暫不確定今天的議程是請教育部部長鄭英亮列席就高級中等學校以下"},{"start":1558.962,"end":1583.926,"text":"公餐與飲食教育的執行情形困難跟挑戰與因應的對策還有地方裁員補助的問題等進行專題報告並備質詢第二個主題是也是請教育部長來列席就新修正發布的高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":1590.285,"end":1611.412,"text":"好那因為現在目前委員並沒有在那我們就現在來介紹與會的官員那包括的是教育部長鄭英耀歡迎謝謝那還有教育部的國民及學前教育署的副署長戴淑芬"},{"start":1614.008,"end":1639.694,"text":"好那也先跟大家講一下今天因為原來是學前署的署長彭副園他應該是到場的啦那因為他家裡臨時有事情那非常緊急的事情他昨天也親自打電話來就是準於請假那就就帶副署長來列席來做備詢好那另外呢其他就是財政部國庫署的副署長黃曉維你好"},{"start":1644.535,"end":1665.621,"text":"環境部環境管理署的副署長劉俊迪農業部的農糧署組長傅立中農業部的農糧署科長鄭永青農業部農糧署的技士陳衍書"},{"start":1671.916,"end":1700.092,"text":"農業部畜牧師檢證記證程俊榮農業部漁業署檢證記證鄭淑文農業部會計處科長王勝芳衛生福利部國民健康署研究員黃巧文衛生福利部食品藥物管理署檢證記證周佩如"},{"start":1703.237,"end":1723.323,"text":"好那涉及到有些預算的編列等等的就是請到行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員王淺凱行政院人事總處的主編人力處專門委員季嘉玲"},{"start":1727.799,"end":1743.778,"text":"還有這個給予福利處的專門委員林志玉好 謝謝因為今天真的涉及到蠻多議題的尤其在營養午餐的部分就請了相關部會的"},{"start":1747.833,"end":1774.574,"text":"人員來做列席做備詢好那我們現在請教育部政部長進行報告報告時間10分鐘主席各位委員大家早安大家好太高厚"},{"start":1775.785,"end":1804.515,"text":"今日本人應邀列席就高級中等以下學校公參與飲食教育之執行情形困難挑戰與因應對策及地方裁員補助問題及高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法進行報告請向各位委員長期對學校教育的關心與指導由衷表示感謝"},{"start":1805.942,"end":1828.408,"text":"首先有關學校午餐的議題長期以來受社會各界高度的一個關注現行國中小午餐供應方式分為公辦公營、公辦民營及外定盒餐比例各約佔三分之一高中的供應方式則較多元"},{"start":1830.219,"end":1846.427,"text":"午餐人力部分與學校衛生法等相關法令規範營養師、儲群人員及午餐執行秘書之工作職責、配置、聘用及教育訓練等"},{"start":1847.688,"end":1869.614,"text":"午餐收費部分各地方政府得依地區特性公餐方式補助方向等不同因素規範學校午餐每餐收費基準在飲食教育面向依據學校衛生法及課程綱要規定以納入健康飲食教育的相關內容以各教育階段"},{"start":1870.933,"end":1893.05,"text":"固定课程皆有相关课程实施学校并得应用校定课程规划饮食教育等教学活动这些年来在中央跨部会及相关单位共同努力下学校午餐采用国产可溯源食材覆盖率已达98.99%"},{"start":1897.279,"end":1911.558,"text":"並照顧經濟弱勢學生餐食及縮短成鄉差距但在制度要求日益提升下仍面臨各地方對於午餐人力資源的投入程度不一"},{"start":1912.179,"end":1930.045,"text":"午餐经会编列影响政策延续性午餐品质与食安管理专业能力需持续来精进等挑战因此本部将尊重地方自治以财政结构调整的前提下持续扮演专业引导以品质的把关"},{"start":1930.965,"end":1958.264,"text":"教就学校午餐人力品质及食品卫生安全等面向透过制度性的监理专业辅导及资讯揭露制度的机制掌握各地方政府执行的情形促进学校午餐人力配置的完善确保学校午餐品质持续精进并能落实相关食品卫生安全规范"},{"start":1959.105,"end":1987.513,"text":"本部將與地方政府共同努力確保學生享有安全營養及健康的餐飲其次有關高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法等相關議題解聘辦法在事實上最早先在108年訂定以後那麼在去年"},{"start":1988.806,"end":2015.58,"text":"在前年113年4月17日全文修正那麼這一年多來教學現場多有反應有爛訴 小案大辦 耗損行政資源等情形因此本部透過多元管道收集各界的意見審慎研擬對策並於115年1月12日完成解併辦法的修正花布"},{"start":2016.48,"end":2032.925,"text":"本市解聘辦法的修正重點包括建立親師生溝通預防機制健全檢舉案件受理程序刪除匿名檢舉明定保密義務與洩密的責任"},{"start":2035.839,"end":2055.865,"text":"建立案件分流機制及新增輔助人員的一個參與機制等重點方向本部配合本次解併辦法的修正同步強化辦理相關配套措施包括辦理學校相關人員法規宣導研習"},{"start":2058.177,"end":2083.143,"text":"校士會議人才庫的一個訓練製作學校受理作業流程圖QA懶人包提供學校參考應用本部並課證研議教師經暫時停聘及調查後不成立的相關輔助的一個機制"},{"start":2084.802,"end":2107.88,"text":"後續本部將持續關注解片辦法的執行情形積極保障兒少權益並兼顧學生的一個學習權以教師的教學品質同時有效解決實務運作衍生的爭議營造優質真正的教育環境感謝我們各位委員這些"},{"start":2111.383,"end":2126.141,"text":"年來對教育部的一些相關政策的一個推動的一個支持也請我們各位委員持續對我們營養午餐以及校事會議給予指導再次感謝我們各位委員謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":2130.202,"end":2144.536,"text":"好 謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告那現在進行詢答每月初席委員質詢9分鐘必要時延長2分鐘夜席委員質詢時間4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分"},{"start":2149.301,"end":2175.362,"text":"如有委員的臨時提案請於10時30分前提出並與本會委員業員諮詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位的柯志恩委員質詢謝謝莊委我們是不是請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":2184.977,"end":2201.506,"text":"喂 部长好我想就1月12号你所公布的有关于教师解评办法的一个修正其实老实说就是有关校师会议的一个检讨那你对于这样公布之后你知道会造成非常大的反弹吗还是你认为一公布完之后所有的校师会议就可以被解决了"},{"start":2202.878,"end":2229.992,"text":"當然這樣的一個修訂事實上要全部解決我們第一現場的這些老師們所有的這些壓力的數我想是沒有辦法的但是我也要跟委員報告這一年多來我北中南分區跟老師們座談也跟家長協會教師協會家長團體跟民間關心台灣教育的許多團體做了許多的座談包含"},{"start":2230.552,"end":2251.07,"text":"好 没关系所以你部长做得非常多了好 很好11月24号在我们公听会完毕之后呢大概就只有一次的邀请所有的各代表过来所以说呢来陈述意见但是呢说实在的教育部只是提出了一个修法的方向但是呢没有一些明确的文字表达所以我们就说你是在表达你的立场"},{"start":2251.71,"end":2280.263,"text":"我也同样跟部长一样而且我本身就是培育师资的一个老师所以不管是我的第一线的学生还有包括在各区里面听到也有很多老师跟家长大家都希望从那个校园里面能够亲师关系都是和谐跟部长的期望是一样的但是我们就来检视你1月12号所公布的这部分到底有没有办法让我们整个校园大家已经过去来说已经是纷扰不休有没有办法得到停止我们先来看一下好了"},{"start":2280.743,"end":2297.9,"text":"我们为了要让这个校事会议不要每一件事情都进到我们所谓的全球独步的一个校事会议你们这一次呢先成立了一个叫受理审议小组没错吧受理审议小组里面呢就是在原来的校事会议当中少了行政人员这也没错吧"},{"start":2298.3,"end":2308.777,"text":"消息會是五個人受理小組是四個人所以你是教師家長然後再加一個專家然後呢有校長但校長本身是沒有投票權那我想請問部長那這個專家是誰來聘請"},{"start":2312.939,"end":2337.766,"text":"專家還是由學校裡面有校長來聘請然後校長沒有投票權來校長可以來決定校長沒有投票權因為你說要維持中立但是校長回到校事會議之後呢校長又有投票權所以我只請問這個受理也就是我們校事會議的會前會跟所謂的這個真正的校事會議有沒有跌船駕屋的這樣子的一個功能上面的一個漢格"},{"start":2340.373,"end":2345.5,"text":"只少的一個 只少的一個所謂的行政代表而已啊其他都一樣啊跟我們報告我們這裡邊怎麼樣去"},{"start":2350.419,"end":2376.981,"text":"兒少權益能夠確保不要跟我講這個你只告訴我有沒有重疊嗎有沒有跌床加烏嗎是沒有跌床加烏的怎麼會沒有呢你這個前面的會前會就是你的小組裡面我們就是家長一樣學校代表一樣專家是由校長聘請只是校長在我們的審議小組的時候不能發表回到的這個部分校士會議當中校長有投票權多增加一個行政人員哪一個不是跌床加烏你告訴我"},{"start":2377.501,"end":2394.09,"text":"我想我們相信教師代表教師的權益的維護跟家長代表這裡邊對學生小孩子的兒童我們都同意問題是你把這個學校有了一個校式會議後你讓整個學校變成好像是一個私設刑場一樣你讓它變一個法院開在學校裡面跟委員報告這一個"},{"start":2397.999,"end":2421.571,"text":"階段我們不希望因為校長還是要護學校辦學的一個責任所以不希望他求員兼裁判我們希望這一個來自專業那我問你校事會議學校長有沒有表決權如果不要求員兼裁判校事會議裡面校長有沒有否決權校長還沒有投票權也可以那這叫什麼求員兼裁判他在校事會議裡面可以求員兼裁判我們就是希望分流因為"},{"start":2422.671,"end":2441.551,"text":"在当时所有的这一年来至少我接到的信息大小事本来校士会是用来所以你认为受了你觉得前面受了一个会前会的受理选一小组就可以解决这个问题吗你觉得就可以解决这个问题吗至少他达到我们老师端的一个诉求希望他不要大小事"},{"start":2442.091,"end":2459.084,"text":"都進入到校事會議我們第一個先分流我想跟委員報告我們現在社會存在一個家長對老師老師對家長我們希望有更多的一些信任部長你當過老師我也當過老師我們都知道你剛講那個目標原則都沒有問題只是你制度的設計有沒有真正維護到讓老師的熱情不被剝奪我覺得是這樣子我想我們的想法跟委員"},{"start":2470.993,"end":2498.018,"text":"一樣 我想只是質疑你你設立的這個所謂邵里審議小組就是邵氏會的會前會有沒有真正讓我們成都的這個爛宿有沒有把制度的設計問題我們先來看嘛我想會比以前更好我不相信好 如果說是我相信的話就不會有馬上就有教師團體在1月25號要上街頭來如果你真的這個設計能夠符合他們的一個需求誠如你說的有跟這些教師團體好好的溝通不會造成這樣的一個狀況好"},{"start":2499.838,"end":2525.521,"text":"部长我们先来看看整个的部分里面嘛你的制度里面当然特别是在你们这个在这个校师会议里面真正进入里面有个调查小组我想很多的教师团体希望在这个校长小组当中除了三位外聘专家当中能够诚如你所说的更了解学校更了解学生的这个所谓的家长跟教师代表能够进入但是呢在调查小组里面被你们否决了没错吧"},{"start":2526.101,"end":2545.796,"text":"你們希望能夠只有法律的專家等等之類不必然是法律專家法律專家可以但是有很多的學校的老師跟家長更是了解學校的狀況可是就被你們用疑惑如果加入了學校的一些代表的話就會變成所謂的官官相護現在你們就是充斥著只要是學校老師出來發聲你們就認為他們在官官相護這是部長你所看到的嗎"},{"start":2553.662,"end":2573.388,"text":"調查小組裡面多增加的兩個難道不好嗎教師代表也可以是學校的一個老師的代表調查小組沒有教師代表 家長代表我們就希望因為他了解學校所以從學校裡面長出來的我說的是調查小組裡面只有三位專家代表就是婚後之前這一個的一個小組"},{"start":2574.248,"end":2597.418,"text":"部長我也知道分流的狀況但是呢當你調查小組把調查的結果放到校務會議校事會的時候呢其實一切就已經決定了就已經決定了常常就已經決定了就好像是檢調已經起訴了好不好陳主委員所提的我對基層教育我是熟悉的我完全同意啊可是我就是質疑這次的制度設計是有問題的"},{"start":2601.039,"end":2613.23,"text":"學校的爭議教師代表不應該由其他學校來當代表家長代表不應該由其他學校來當代表我們兩個現在沒有對焦部長我們現在沒有對焦我現在跟你說這個你跟我說別的東西這不是我現在只能跟你提倡我們這個所謂的裡面的調查小組當中我們只希望能夠多有一個對於學校裡面完全理解的因為我們很清楚"},{"start":2624.761,"end":2634.488,"text":"在校士會議當中整個之前的調查報告就已經決定了80%這才是為什麼那麼多教師團體希望在你們所謂的專家學者之外能夠加入我只告訴你部長"},{"start":2641.212,"end":2666.059,"text":"你們當然可以去執行但是呢有高度的重疊這個制度設計為了要避免校試會議不要被你們說有爛數你們反而在校試會裡面又前面又多出了一個審查小組但是裡面的名單是高度重疊的就事情的判斷來做分流那平常你的教評會什麼平常的考核會議之前就可以來判斷了難道沒有嗎在你我的年代當中就教評會就來判斷了"},{"start":2667.719,"end":2693.32,"text":"理解也同意委員我們以前時代就有嗎有你那時候的老師的尊嚴跟現在他在哪裡現在重點是108年當時為什麼既然學校有校教評會為什麼還訂出了一個所謂的校士會議對這個解聘不棄聘當時的體系當然有一定的時空環境可是當時因為這個校士會議裡邊希望有一個更專業更客觀來"},{"start":2694.141,"end":2714.015,"text":"我只告诉你部长你也很清楚的知道你现在讲了这么多的理由我们现在回归到最有温度的教学的现场你这套的设计有让我们现在的现职的老师因为你这个设计里面让他们觉得倍感尊严让他们觉得他们教育的热忱还是继续维持吗你就说着这个部分就可以了吗在我们的年代当中"},{"start":2714.355,"end":2733.692,"text":"我們當老師是什麼樣的一個尊榮我們現在的當老師是什麼樣的一個卑微你可以比較一下嘛我從頭到尾我沒有否定你的粗心我只告訴你現在的制度完全沒有辦法讓我們這個第一線老師受到任何的一個尊重嘛沒有嘛然後呢補償機制你們什麼時候研議出來你先讓我先問到這個部分我可以讓你回應"},{"start":2738.556,"end":2761.162,"text":"我們老師如果受到一個冤案的話你的補償機制研議到什麼時候出來你可不可以告訴我們一個具體的時程我們先把這個全部問題問完你同意回應這也要請委員多以支持確實我們現在的一個法令相關是有難度的但是我也跟委員報告自始至終我同意如果一個老師受到冤屈"},{"start":2762.722,"end":2789.281,"text":"民意怎么回复包含他的许多的权益怎么样来回复我想这一直自始至终好嘛那你什么时候要把我们的补偿机制演绎出来什么时候具体实际部长我从头到后没有否定你的初心我只告诉你你所设定的制度当中让我们现在的教育的老师第一线的老师越来越没有热情他们真的觉得回到学校去教书之后动不动就很害怕不是我引起的"},{"start":2789.961,"end":2812.637,"text":"但是我願意來協助解決問題當然 那你 好了沒有問題補償機制什麼時候出來什麼時候研議出來告訴我們一個具體的時程這是我們不斷在追問的我的立場一直是主張應該給予回復的但是我們現在確實有許多的法令必須要克服所以這個部分我們會跨部會包括跨院長那什麼時候 到底什麼時候出來"},{"start":2814.025,"end":2834.232,"text":"你要跨到哪里去啊你这个老师的这个补偿好 没问题所以是说给我们一个明确的一个时程出来好嘛 那什么时候嘛可能什么时候半年 三个月如果可以那么快我不会再这一次我这一次就会以我的个性这一次就一次到位了"},{"start":2834.312,"end":2852.348,"text":"您以你的個性我相信你會為老師的權益能夠做我只告訴你從頭到尾這是我所聽到所有的這個部分校園裡面的對立沒有因為你這個制度的設計變得因此更加友善老師的熱忱沒有因為這個制度增加一個會前會的審議小組因為這樣就這樣我們的時間成本也沒有因為這樣子而受到這樣的影響老師他們對目前先把這個不具名這個避免爛數"},{"start":2861.896,"end":2884.408,"text":"這個至少減了一半第一線的老師已經至少他們覺得這是一個好的開始匿名的部分裡面萬一真的是有一個真的是是匿名你們不予受理但是真的有一些的方式裡面他真的涉及到不當的體罰那你要怎麼處理只要是匿名你都不處理嗎那如果有這些事情發生你怎麼辦他回歸到什麼機制"},{"start":2885.609,"end":2914.501,"text":"如果真有這件事情的話我想有一些我們還是有一些流程這一個我們會所以你們回到考核機制嘛對不對如果說真的有的我們是有一個機制而且會給地方教育局處這個都跟地方教育局處討論過的所以我們在未來的這個沒有我只問說你如果說匿名審查你們都把它刪除但是如果真的是匿名審查但是真的是有涉及到不當的一個管教這個部分怎麼處理我們還是有一個程序上什麼程序原來體制上面的考核機制對不對"},{"start":2915.541,"end":2940.707,"text":"那是不是又回到原來的考核機制那是不一樣的什麼不一樣我們一定要看他在這個事實上那如果他有延期從主管單位裡邊我們透過那個檢核的幾個指標那就是原來的機制嘛對不對你最匿名的部分你就回到原來的機制嘛居民的話你就回到這個校式會議之前的會前會然後到校式會議然後再有檢查檔"},{"start":2943.812,"end":2948.361,"text":"你覺得真的會對我們的這個所謂的師生權益保障會更有效嗎你真的這麼覺得會比較好嗎"},{"start":2951.449,"end":2971.698,"text":"我相信他一定會更好你相信會更好好我告訴你我那時候就說1月12號你們這樣子提出這個部分裡面如果沒有處理好一定會讓所謂的教育現場老師更是覺得心寒果然這個部分裡面來說的話教師團體基本上他的最希望是整個根本廢掉"},{"start":2972.971,"end":2989.377,"text":"这是我们终极目标回到刚才委员讲的由校教评会来处理但是我们必须要讲台湾这些年来因为儿少前逸包括少子化很多的不必然是少子化每一个家长你这样说起来好像教师的"},{"start":2990.077,"end":3011.248,"text":"教师的这个团体里面不顾及你的这个儿童不顾及儿少法不顾及家长群你这样对教师团体不公平啊我当然校长我不是委员不能用这样做结论但是彼此之间如何增加彼此的信任更多的一个信任当然我一直相信亲师合作才能够把下一代教得更好"},{"start":3011.408,"end":3040.931,"text":"我当然相信部长这就是我们一贯身为教育工作者一贯的一个方向这个我们都不用再互相的质疑只是我们今天所讨论就整个制度的设计上面真正的是让我们第一线的老师到目前为止对于这样一个设计他们真的觉得已经有点心寒这也是一个你不能忽略到的一个事实没有人因为说这样的部分里面就完全忽略了学生忽略了家长的感受没有完全没有这样一个修正我没有办法满足所有的老师"},{"start":3041.451,"end":3062.404,"text":"也沒有辦法解決所有老師的一些問題但是他往好的方向在做我們就來看看有沒有辦法往好的方向所以說部長萬一這個過程當中沒有因此讓整個老師的這個熱情回復沒有辦法讓校園的堆積繼續的這樣子的有所減少你是不是可以承諾可以做另外一番的一個修正萬一你執行起來"},{"start":3062.824,"end":3089.827,"text":"这个是我们大概半年后我们会滚动半年后好半年后我们都还在对不对我们就来看现在是一月对不对七八月我们下个会期的时候我们就来看看到底还在不在好不好这才是一个很具体还有包括老师我刚刚所提到的他的补偿的部分我希望在半年后当中我们也可以看到我们今天站在这个地方都要讲出明确的时程跟明确的一个目标这才是我们身为教育者里面应该对这些老师对这些学生应该有的责任跟角色"},{"start":3090.387,"end":3098.769,"text":"也是我努力的目標我們半年後再來看看檢視這樣的一個成果好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝柯之恩委員那鄭部長請回座好我們現在請劉淑冰委員好謝謝主席請鄭部長好部長"},{"start":3125.956,"end":3150.067,"text":"委員好部長早我們今天特別要針對的是營養午餐的部分做詢答因為在您的報告當中有特別針對到說這一次又要針對的是營養的基準食材品質跟食品的安全跟管理的相關制度要作為有效的而且是應該是尤其是現在我們正在做一個立法的動作在學校的公餐跟飲食教育的條例當中"},{"start":3152.668,"end":3159.633,"text":"那這邊可是看到的是在115年1月6號之前呢看到的是只有10個縣市是免費嘛那現在20個縣市免費啦那你們在根據你們報告當中那如何落實監督跟把關其實是非常重要的嘛對不對"},{"start":3169.019,"end":3186.72,"text":"好那當然就想說問到這相關的氣勢是什麼我們再繼續看到目前教育部有針對這些食材人力偏鄉學校中央廚房弱勢等等等等可是呢這邊我就想看到尤其在食材部分看到的是說上個年度看到的是在"},{"start":3188.46,"end":3207.736,"text":"農業部呢他針對說現在的這個張Q制度吧張Q制度上面因為使用國產食材已經到達98.98是好事情可是呢農業部已經說了在115年就是現在開始的這個部分的錢是由地方政府的由統籌分配管的要應該自己來去來去支付對吧"},{"start":3209.457,"end":3228.326,"text":"可是這個地方我們看到的是齁在這個情況之下看起來是的確沒有錯可是怎麼樣呢是確定說他們因為統籌分配管有非常多的項目我們可以看看包括哪些項目齁這邊項目當中呢很多的是在於說你看到他還有這些一般的補助款啦基本設施水利啊等等啦景銷啦還有"},{"start":3229.426,"end":3239.915,"text":"國中小學水電費等等等等可是你怎麼能夠保證他一定會收得到呢尤其這麼多錢的東西他一定能夠保證到說他能夠落實到章丘食材的試用"},{"start":3241.12,"end":3261.5,"text":"謝謝委員我想第一個委員非常關心協同的這個營養午餐他們是不是食的安全包括飲食教育我心存感謝但是陳儒委員剛才所提的在這個我們營養午餐還沒過全國22個地方縣市已經有10個地方縣市本已地方自治的前者他已經免費"},{"start":3262.481,"end":3276.059,"text":"那這個我們在訂定的過程現在已經又有變成20個地方縣市除了新北市跟嘉義市我重點是你怎麼樣就落實啊我先跟委員報告這充分反映營養午餐確實屬於地方"},{"start":3279.062,"end":3306.038,"text":"地方自治的前者我想我们尊重地方那第二个三张EQ怎么样确保这个也跟委员报告我们所理解22地方县市都已经把三张EQ这一个放在年度的一个编列在年度的预算里边所以这一个先跟委员做这样一个补充说明那第二个就是我们当然有这个登录平台我们有许多的这一个监控的一个机制包含这一个"},{"start":3307.619,"end":3322.795,"text":"這個請專家協助如果地方有許多的專業上的一些營養的一些食材等等這個內容或者怎麼樣來開這個菜單等等我們事實上都會給予協助如果地方需要中央來"},{"start":3323.416,"end":3338.599,"text":"所以你們還繼續在協商但是張Q已經確定了他們各個地方政府都已經以今年來講目前我們所知道的22個地方縣這個115人好 這是好消息表示他們地方政府也是負責任的嘛對不對所以地方政府對市的安全跟品質他們事實上因為每一個家庭"},{"start":3339.46,"end":3355.301,"text":"在意他每一個小孩子是不是能夠食得安全 食得健康好 那我們繼續看可是現在一個問題是當營養午餐的費用由地方政府大部分都來支付的時候現在看到的是每一餐的價格是不一的喔"},{"start":3355.882,"end":3368.734,"text":"你看看喔 台北市是60到70喔 可是在高雄市呢他在之前是38到55這一部分你要做 你們自己報告當中說你們要做減核評估指標啦 定期檢視這些部分那請問一下如果 因為"},{"start":3371.196,"end":3394.982,"text":"價格上面是關鍵啦那如果你價格上面沒有一定的這樣的差距連六都裡面高雄市跟台北市都有這麼大的差距的話你的價格上面是不是給個Range是合理的不然的話呢尤其等一下還處理到的是還有廚餘的問題那廚餘的問題是不是也請部長或是其他部會來做一下說明因為這部分你的部分涉及到的是這相關的經費使用不夠的話怎麼辦呢"},{"start":3396.282,"end":3422.028,"text":"我想我非常同意委員的觀察這個數據就是說我們地方這個營養午餐我們重點還是要吃得健康嘛這個品質嘛但是因為地方各地方縣市的那個物價指數各地方的它反映到了一個怎麼樣的一個這個合理的一個價格你對價格上面不care就對了不是不care我要跟委員讓我多一點講"},{"start":3424.469,"end":3446.505,"text":"我的意思是说在这里边有一些我们观察他虽然是这个全美民会在过去呢他定了一个价格跟家长收的是比较低一点地方还是会有补助中央还是有一些补助嘛所以他可以吃的比如说他可能定55块最高但是他实际上公餐是一餐可能80块或者70块"},{"start":3447.446,"end":3465.992,"text":"就是說他怎麼樣去確保品質那委員所關心的這也是我們這個各地方縣市政府當他營養午餐要免費提供的時候許多民間團體包括家長團體也希望說你們不要訂太低喔因為整個物價整個品質因為價格反映一定"},{"start":3466.963,"end":3494.752,"text":"有一定程度的一個品質的一個保證嘛所以我想這對地方政府也是一個提醒我覺得這一個也是我們教育部會來努力跟地方要提醒他們怎麼樣確保我們實的安全好 那因為你說減核指標你還是沒有說出來我這樣想的啊你說跟物價有關係那是不是可以做你們的指南這邊做一個指南是說應該是說要做CPI的部分要隨時的這個你要去做一個減核的指標各縣市要達到這樣的一個目標可以嗎"},{"start":3496.152,"end":3503.231,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒我們當然我們一定會做那你們這個所謂的定期檢視跟資訊揭露的部分會呈現在哪裡"},{"start":3504.434,"end":3525.617,"text":"你們未來會呈現在哪裡我們一個跟委員報告就是我們現在有食材登錄平台嘛那另外一個我們當然也希望說從中央的觀點我們怎麼去督導各地方縣市他們營養午餐的辦理情形我們當然也必要的時候也在透過一些公開媒體裡面能夠給以所以你們定期三個月一期還是說一個學期一期那我想"},{"start":3526.338,"end":3555.342,"text":"這一個我們更細部的我想我們一定會跟地方來做一些討論那至少每年一定會公佈一次好 每年公佈一次至少 至少好 我們現在因為你這樣做的話我覺得已經章秋的部分已經解決掉了所以包括450億的這個產業這個就大概可以獲得結束了那我們另外高中以下這個飲食教育的部分高中以下學校健康飲食指導內容及規劃的部分你們預計適合時要完成因為這是飲食教育的部分"},{"start":3556.315,"end":3571.261,"text":"我們已經頒布了是不是詳細請你請這個我們副署長113年的時候就已經有修正並且已經有頒布所以就繼續那你們剛才說還延擬延定這部分是繼續在持續性滾動嗎"},{"start":3572.821,"end":3590.055,"text":"這個部分是可以持續性滾動那基本上我們在飲食教育的部分的話12年國家課綱裡頭對飲食教育它基本上就已經有我知道對充分的一個內容那不少學校也把飲食教育當他們的校定課程"},{"start":3590.816,"end":3617.327,"text":"有看到部地校定課程都有對 沒有錯對 都有飲食教育的部分這個部分我想不管是中央或是地方或是學校其實都是非常的重視的我們也希望飲食教育可以能夠深入到每一個孩子對 這能夠改善我們的學生的健康是好 謝謝我們繼續再往下看就是大家所關注的校事會議那這邊我看到的是教育部有改變"},{"start":3618.227,"end":3639.279,"text":"那這個改變當中我想你可能更需要的多一點的溝通協調不是只有一次性的可能持續性的到未來都是這樣子那有一個很大的特色是說呢建立親師的生的溝通跟預防機制但是有一個問題是教育團體呢教師團體他就提到說那你也是我想詢問的是巡堂的觀客的時機是什麼時間啊"},{"start":3640.8,"end":3661.596,"text":"这部分平常就在做吗还是因为这个才去做变成是一种监督这平常就在做课纲里边也明定那是老师这个校长跟主任们等等再透过寻堂观课里边去协助老师或者有许多偶发的事件的一些协助处理所以我们希望回顾到包含刚才"},{"start":3662.657,"end":3686.046,"text":"科委員所提我們怎麼樣回顧到過去親師能夠更多一份的信任讓校園的教學能夠減少一些不必要的一些困擾我想這就是我們所談的我們要回顧到當等於說過去我們其實校園是一團和氣的老師相信校長校長相信老師家長也支持"},{"start":3686.866,"end":3708.504,"text":"老師的一個教學所以是本來就有只是說你們這個地方呢就把在開宗明義上面就是第一個部分拿出來大家不要忘掉初衷只有親師合作小孩子才能夠有更好的一個教育品質很好很好我這個部分要跟大家講就是教育部長那時候我跟副署長有提到教師法這一部分你們只有處分人卻沒有負責修復專業"},{"start":3712.347,"end":3731.12,"text":"就是怎麼樣把老師的輔導回到專業他就把他處分到等等等等的這一部分才是最重要的因為教師真的有問題各種的像評鑑評估知識什麼都有但是教師法就是沒有我當初也跟大夫有說了這部分強烈建議把教師法的修法加入到改正陪伴復歸專業的制度選項您覺得呢"},{"start":3733.442,"end":3754.7,"text":"我想這個我們當然可以來考量來這個努力看怎麼樣來修讓它更完善但是也跟委員報告我們現在有這個國教輔導團有學科輔導社群還有許多的教師的這個社群它怎麼樣假設我們發現它教學上有需要精進的"},{"start":3755.16,"end":3778.022,"text":"部長你要請你注意到教師法是關於教師權益的你如果給他申請停聘解聘但是卻這次過程當中卻沒有像依照大學的這個部分給他如果受到這些處分了但是必須要給他回復這才是教育的本質啊你這些團體等等沒有說在法規上規定上的辦法當中可是他的權益上面在教師法才是權益的部分啦是吧"},{"start":3778.482,"end":3801.4,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告如果他已經到那一個所謂的解聘的這當然我們大概就他必須要離開學校但是屬於學校考核的這一個部分我們確實怎麼樣來協助他改正陪伴然後復歸這個專業我想我們努力的方向是一致這是非常重要尤其是"},{"start":3802.461,"end":3824.553,"text":"部長您本身是大學教授校長你都知道大學就是有這個部分是嗎好那我們繼續往下看還有在第五條當中現在提到說的被害人跟其法定代理人這部分這部分怎麼預設老師有罪你把老師調查都還沒有出爐就已經預設老師是加害人嗎這部分真的要修改是吧"},{"start":3826.687,"end":3852.546,"text":"是好 那現在我們看到的冤案的補償機制這部分那你們在演繹 最後沒有公布出來我接續的柯市民委員繼續下去就是在說那現在的情況是 我知道是他的薪資部分就給他還回到但是學術加急的部分就還在跟人事行政總署對不對但是恢復名譽這部分你要跟我現在想請問的是跟全序部人事行政總署是哪一些規定哪些"},{"start":3853.467,"end":3876.416,"text":"行政命令跟委員報告我們確實在目前的法令人事總署裡邊相關的人事的法規它確實是這樣的就是說如果涉及到有一些紛爭就進入到這個這個停聘後來恢復的時候那只有本縫因為從人事法規這些年來所以你還不知道名稱是什麼你的法規名稱還不知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":3883.986,"end":3908.62,"text":"教师法还有教师待遇条例涉及到两个法然后因为也有公教横评的问题所以这个部分我们还在研究因为涉及到法律那这个部分是不是可以请事后给本级可以的我跟委员报告我自始至终在讨论校师会议的时候我常常跟我们同仁讲将心比心因为今天我们都不是当事人"},{"start":3909.5,"end":3938.498,"text":"如果我们是当事人被污蔑或者这个等于说被冤枉了将心比心你可能比现场的老师对体制的一个抱怨或者反抗可能是更大的所以我要跟委员报告自始至终设身处地将心比心一个很简单的同理心这也是我们的诉求我们希望能够跨部会跟"},{"start":3939.218,"end":3954.476,"text":"这一个包含人事总处包括财主单位包含全序部我们都希望本以这样一个初心来进行沟通希望我们台湾一直在进步我们许多的法令怎么样与时俱进这也是我们在努力的"},{"start":3954.616,"end":3983.268,"text":"好 我肯定部長你這時候站在教育部這個教文委會當中把一個大家長的一個心態說出來了 沒錯我們教師就是很清清白白的用個萬事思表或是一日為師終生為父的這樣一個態度在面對事情你講出來這個態度好 我覺得好 給你肯定那最後我們看到說 好啦這個各界的修法團體等等我覺得你能夠有的 因為學生那跟家長團體還是有些這樣的一個意見啦 不過我想你的溝通還是都不嫌多 繼續做好嗎"},{"start":3984.93,"end":3997.403,"text":"我們會持續努力我們希望哪一天就是說當家長親師合作回到我們過去所看到的校園的那個溫馨的一個場景那也許那就是校士會議要退場的時機"},{"start":3998.848,"end":4027.438,"text":"好 那最後我想要再看一下這部分喔 有關於對於教師在全面加薪喔 但是對專輔教師的這部分 因為他是他是沒有分 他是輔導學生不分上下課時間 他超時工作又是拿不到終點費喔 大量的文書工作是在另外的門 但是卻沒有一個實現這部分喔 那沒有獲得教育部的照顧 那請國教署這邊是不是回應 這部分專輔教師的他那個這樣子的 終點費有沒有涵掛到他們"},{"start":4029.195,"end":4047.041,"text":"我想我們會後我們內部也事實上也在考慮怎麼樣來對這個莊胡老師有一些更大的一些支持但是我們當時的一個教師的一個加薪或者這個終點會我們是希望一體適用的"},{"start":4047.501,"end":4074.738,"text":"对但是好像都是专辅教师那详细的我想我们再来看怎么样有一些相关的一些法令比如说还有一些老师比如说他谈代理代课的可能各地方政府在实施上是不一致的我们当时的想法是专任教师跟代理教师所有的终点会包含本土老师他大部分都是用这个等于说兼课的一个方式那怎么样把这些"},{"start":4076.439,"end":4096.51,"text":"這個終點會能夠一致這是我事實上昨天也特別交代彭署長這我們起心動念所有的老師只要他上課國小 國中 高中不一樣的終點會因為他授課時數長短時間長短不一但是我們希望他的標準這個應該都是一致的好 那這樣的情況什麼時候大概會出來你們研議會多久"},{"start":4098.59,"end":4120.346,"text":"我們這個禮拜會溝通因為基本上就所知道國教署人士這個教育部的人事處也都在協助做這個事情這個禮拜我們會簽給人總我們也會透過溝通希望能夠建立共識好 我們看到教育部有在做這樣的尤其是國簽署這部分有在做內部的溝通而且我剛才問就一個禮拜的這個答案就非常好"},{"start":4120.746,"end":4148.553,"text":"希望因為教育部長跟國賢署的所有人員或是包括其他部分的官員的一個合作讓我們的教師真的感覺到說他們是受到尊重過去有一些狀況有一些不連結的可以解決掉但是這才是最重要的因為教育是國本就是很重要就一起努力謝謝謝謝委員指導好 謝謝好 謝謝劉淑冰委員謝謝部長好 接下來我們請萬美玲委員"},{"start":4152.711,"end":4164.496,"text":"等一下我們要先確定上一次的議事錄反正現在有三位委員在現場請問對於上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或是遺漏之處好沒有謝謝好現在請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":4182.32,"end":4185.443,"text":"謝謝召委 我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長委員長"},{"start":4191.994,"end":4219.681,"text":"部長早千戶萬喚1月12號我們修正教師解聘辦法跟教師成績考核辦法終於出來了但是呢本來以為1月12之後可以解決掉大家心中的很多疑慮很多的問題但沒有想到看到教師團體依然有這麼多的一個意見跟想法那1月25號要到教育部來陳情那部長知道他們為什麼要陳情嗎"},{"start":4222.121,"end":4250.086,"text":"我知道你知道那所以1月25號那一天你會出來接受他們的陳情嗎我只期待這個教師團體能夠看到我們的努力很多的法令不可能一次到位兼顧台灣所有從兒少前一各個團體上這個我們都了解所以部長那一天會出來接受他們的陳情嗎我覺得他們應該要回到這個學校裡邊把小孩子教得更好"},{"start":4250.766,"end":4253.353,"text":"所以不會那好不要這個傷了我們對他們支持的心我們的努力"},{"start":4258.511,"end":4286.626,"text":"我想其实这个是应该要一个彼此尊重就像您刚刚一直在讲的是希望回到以前亲师很和谐我们对老师有相当的尊重这个才能变成一个良性的循环现在看起来一直在恶性循环当中但是这个不是靠呼吁就可以改变现在的一个状态的那有没有打算在1月25号那他们准备要到教育部成行之前能够跟这些教师团体来进行沟通不管是部长次长或是署长有没有这样的一个想法或计划"},{"start":4287.006,"end":4305.219,"text":"謝謝委員的關心但是我想這個教育部一直在跟教師團體有許多的一些溝通的管道但是我也只能講教師團體希望把校事會議廢掉所以1月25號之前我們沒有打算再進行溝通了是嗎"},{"start":4307.841,"end":4325.458,"text":"應該這麼講的我們國教署或者教育部的同仁事實上包括張廖萬堅次長也常常跟他們那個部長我想不要浪費時間講這些啦那過去的努力我也看在眼裡但是現在顯然就是還沒有辦法很完全的打消我們這些教師對於校師會議的一種恐懼恐慌跟不滿嘛"},{"start":4328.621,"end":4348.217,"text":"所以我希望在1月25号之前部里面能够去考虑是不是能够再跟他们继续沟通了解一下过去是在1月12之前那有很多他们的想法我们在沟通但1月12我们办法新修出来之后他们还有一些想法我觉得应该要再进行一次沟通部长可不可以再给彼此一个机会"},{"start":4349.627,"end":4361.536,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心因為委員也特別為了這一個召開的公聽會我想大家的想法都是一致的我還是那一句話保持溝通這沒有問題的我們來這邊討論一下這一次教育部你修的法當中最主要幾個點第一個我們刪除掉了匿名檢舉"},{"start":4371.644,"end":4392.584,"text":"第二个呢我们进行案件分流再来我们希望制度能够精致化但是呢我们看到教师团体这一次最主要他们的想法是说看到这一切修改但是没有办法去对于滥诉去解决这种所谓零成本的滥诉的问题那本席仔细去看了一下我觉得这问题当中"},{"start":4393.064,"end":4410.791,"text":"的確還有沒有辦法解決的地方在那你看你希望說在校事會議之前能夠再來一個所謂的私人小組的會議可是呢我們這個私人小組的會議當中那你為了這個我不曉得為什麼你要把這個校長能夠有意見但是沒有表決權這是為什麼"},{"start":4412.552,"end":4427.6,"text":"這我想我們希望學校終究的一個這個辦學的一個責任還是要校長負責但是學校裡邊怎麼樣能夠校長怎麼樣不要公斤變成氏族我想這一個我們第一個就是希望把這一個"},{"start":4428.16,"end":4452.592,"text":"因為我們要解決過去動不動部長啦 我跟你說啦這都是你的想法但是你知道嗎光是你這個私人小組會議啊大家都覺得跌床架屋不管是教師團體不管是校長甚至於校長更覺得說哇 短期內他其實要召開兩個會議而教師團體也覺得這裡面還是問題很多包括你現在讓校長沒有表決權教師團體覺得校長變成有權無責怎麼說"},{"start":4456.434,"end":4473.697,"text":"因為他還是召開會議還是可以表達意見他是有權的但他不用投票變成他是無責的可是校長認為呢所有的一切責任還是在我是一校之長但是我變成有責無權啊所以你這樣的一個修法搞了一個四人小組的一個會議啊其實是不順故意又逆了掃疫啊"},{"start":4474.218,"end":4503.598,"text":"所以没有得到大家有一个共识所以人家也说这个叫做新瓶装旧酒但我倒不这么认为因为总是有做了一些改变包括我们这个删除掉匿名检举本席是肯定这一件事的只是说未来的机制上面对于在匿名里面万一真有一件两件是真的真有歧视的时候我们怎么去防范这个部分可能就是再去多加思考一下但是我认为这个部分还是可以把这个烂数下降一点点的但是我想今天我们再来看"},{"start":4504.238,"end":4530.413,"text":"就是說你今天讓校長沒有表達意見這件事情看起來沒有任何一個方向的團體是買單的所以我不理解為什麼要做這樣跌床駕霧的事情跟委員我想我們的想法是跟委員一致的我們希望學校發生老師的一些可能管教上的一些這個可能有一些人質疑我們怎麼樣讓最熟悉這個學校的教師"},{"start":4531.587,"end":4550.694,"text":"代表還有這個學校的家長代表不是啦部長你應該要把今天大家的質詢聽進去喔因為1月12你可能好不容易集思廣益修了吧但是其實有很多的問題還是在裡面嘛你應該要把它帶回去也許你試行一段時間之後還要再調整不一定喔你去想想看今天我想我們幾個委員會有在講"},{"start":4551.314,"end":4559.842,"text":"你私人小組會議其實做了決議之後你回到校師會議校長還是要表決嘛所以這個權責你怎麼分你剛剛所講的其實你剛剛所講的問題還是會產生嘛然後要在這麼密集之內其實要兩次的會議我真的覺得啦"},{"start":4566.548,"end":4583.573,"text":"這次再多修了這個利益良善但是效果沒有達到好 那我們再來看你這邊有提到說如果私人小組決定要進到校事會的案件我們會再討論一次這個案件是屬於不適任案或者一般懲處案還是說我們就會直接進入調查階段是怎麼樣如果分流基本上就是它可能已經涉及到那個不適任等於說要解聘"},{"start":4596.109,"end":4613.461,"text":"就是我們習慣過去談的校事會議前面是在做分流因為我們要解決過去大小案去以去年為例1300多個案我知道嘛所以我在請教您說到了校事會議之後還需要再討論一次它是屬於哪一類的案子還是直接進入調查"},{"start":4614.221,"end":4642.97,"text":"直接就進入調查嗎我想這一次整個修法完以後你還提到了一個我們需要進入到校師會議的就是所謂的教師不適任案本席也列了一下所謂的涉及教師法的不適任案裡面有幾項其中一個在第16條第一項教學不力教學不力也是在當中但是這四個字很抽象可不可以請部長明確告訴我教學不力是指什麼"},{"start":4644.773,"end":4665.378,"text":"教學不利我想有一些老師就是他連上課都不來上課嘛這是在這個不用講這個就很明確啦那還有什麼叫教學不利譬如說遲到早對礦課礦止對學生所有的教學裡面完全不用心什麼叫做不用心當然"},{"start":4666.378,"end":4694.797,"text":"所以部長本席在這裡要提醒你你的教學不利這個部分呢其實就是要進到教師不是人案進到校師會議我覺得還有很多模糊的空間那當然你沒有辦法規範到100%但是也不能夠啊我們再重新修正以後就還是問題百出嘛那所以這個部分我希望能不能在會後啊你也想一想然後也給教文委員會的委員一個報告到底啊你所謂進入到教師不是人案裡面哪幾項是應該在這當中的"},{"start":4695.177,"end":4714.702,"text":"也讓未來的調查小組或者是你所謂的這些消息會議也好私人小組也好有一個比較明確的依循好不好所以這個會會要再給我們一下謝謝委員提醒因為確實我們在根據過去的歷史我們現在是在整理一些比較普遍的一些涉及到這個我又必須要有"},{"start":4715.242,"end":4733.6,"text":"不续聘这一个停聘等等这会后再给我对于案例也希望能够给各地方县市谢谢这会后再给我那另外我想我也是强烈的要求因为我们知道在就是之前12月31号的时候张亮万街次长其实有讲"},{"start":4734.201,"end":4753.031,"text":"他說1月12的校士會議的這個修法他一定會考入納入冤獄補償但是看起來沒有啊看起來沒有那時候說好的結果出來的時候是沒有我想我們校士團體當然都非常的失望那你剛剛有提到說想這麼做那如果能這麼做早就這麼做了"},{"start":4753.311,"end":4775.666,"text":"但問題是既然知道這是應該做的我希望部長能不能加快腳步如果你夠積極如果你夠想要我相信你所謂的跨部會其實是會尊重教育部的所以部長這個部分不管是我們的名譽的回覆實質的加急也好的這些補償我希望能夠更盡速一點能不能歇一個時間告訴我們大概什麼時候我跟委員報告我一直在努力我氣有不守"},{"start":4783.24,"end":4802.458,"text":"我希望當然是業快業好好既然沒有辦法借出時間來我們就希望你加緊腳步那最後我想針對這一次教師團體所提到的關於尋堂 觀客等等其實讓他們感受上非常的不舒服就像您說的這平常其實有在做"},{"start":4803.559,"end":4820.613,"text":"但是你要把它修在文字當中其實未來是不是只要有一個人經過了這個走廊經過了教室外大家都覺得有人要來監督有人要來蒐證我覺得這沒有辦法達到一個尊重我認為這個部分如果原本有在做的話我也希望部長能夠再思考一下怎麼樣做會比較細緻"},{"start":4822.535,"end":4835.381,"text":"那接下來我們進入到今天的這個營養午餐的部分距離上一次也就是在12月24號討論午餐的專訪其實又快要過了一個月所以部長你有沒有在跟行政院在溝通我們有沒有願板要出來"},{"start":4837.665,"end":4859.464,"text":"跟委員報告我們的營養午餐一直彭署長這個跟地方在溝通那陳儒剛才我跟這個劉委員報告在營養午餐法大家在希望他有一個專法的時候已經有十個縣市地方本於地方自治他已經在做免費我知道所以現在簡單來講目前還沒有願版對嗎我們寫"},{"start":4864.878,"end":4871.554,"text":"我們教育部有一個版本教育部有版本所以有布版出來了上次你是建議文字所以現在是有布版了嗎"},{"start":4872.677,"end":4901.456,"text":"我們也跟委員報告嘛到底是建議文字還是不版這兩個還是不太一樣啊我們有建議文字建議文字所以不是不版嘛部長修正一下所以還是維持在上次的進度啦好上次其實在審查的時候呢署長有說啦就是專法通過的話地方大概要承擔118億74億相關的補助那在44億可能有一些營養師相關的人事上那所以我們有在跟地方溝通那部長能不能簡單講一下現在署長跟地方溝通的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":4904.193,"end":4931.246,"text":"就是因為在這個喜多的營養午餐因為各地方因地制宜我剛才跟委員報告過的就是它可能有這個物價指數等等還有學校規模大小所以它有公辦公營有公辦私營也有用這個便當的委外的這個便當的一個送整整的機制它事實上在整個那個單價的一個成本那誰要來譬如說在我們過去的這喜多的偏鄉"},{"start":4932.686,"end":4958.024,"text":"好了 部长 我们不是在讲这个东西啦我今天要讲的是说这个第一个专访你们要出来那按照现行来说看一下你说你要这个研拟还有公告相关营养午餐的人力配置的原则嘛看一下是要用五原则去取代专访这个部分目前暂时我也没有意见但是我们就是要把营养午餐办好嘛那现在呢我们看到各县市已经有很多县市"},{"start":4958.624,"end":4981.17,"text":"有的是很積極就把營養午餐免費讓所有的孩子都有營養午餐可以吃那有的縣市當然不情不願也是做了這樣可見大家都往這個方向去走了那當然也有人提出來說是不是其實布林麵應該要讓我們全國的這個政策是統一的既然開始有營養午餐免費是不是全國都可以這個營養午餐免費由中央來做這樣的一個政策"},{"start":4982.174,"end":5001.692,"text":"跟我們報告他確實這一個就是屬於我們現在看到全國22個地方縣市已經有20個縣市這一個免費所以他充分說明了他就是屬於地方自治的一個前線但是教育部未來一定會確實把不打我提幾個例子給你聽"},{"start":5003.453,"end":5019.218,"text":"我們以前有那個子宮頸癌疫苗其實這樣講法不太正確就HPV 對不對那在各縣市開始慢慢慢慢就是有的縣市有做那有的縣市可能打國中一年級的女生有的二年級有的縣市可能慢慢打到高中當時是這樣"},{"start":5020.879,"end":5044.182,"text":"那於是後來中央發現說子宮頸癌疫苗HPV這個很重要那後來現在中央甚至於連本席提案的我們連男生現在也可以施打全國一致這是第一個第二個就你了解的我們代理代課教室的聘期以前是從縣市開始做嘛對不對有些縣市開始覺得說代理代課教室很重要我們就全聘期然後呢中央接手做"},{"start":5044.662,"end":5060.058,"text":"中華街有時候都做得很好啊那營養午餐為什麼不能這樣做呢所以本席認為我們應該全國的這個孩子吃營養午餐要佔營養的立足點當然我們可能因為這個食材的成本這物流各方面可能不一致但是我認為"},{"start":5060.899,"end":5089.455,"text":"部里面是不是应该要下去了解那在各县市的营养午餐的餐费设一个定额那开始要一律由中央来做那全部买单或者是做一个定额以上的来怎么样这个补贴但是我觉得这样的政策真的是应该中央做而不是地方按照各县市的财政的状况不同有的可能吃的好一点有的可能吃的差一点有的这个经费高有的经费低那有的甚至有做有的没有做有的现在做有的可能到财政不好他不做我觉得这样是不对的"},{"start":5089.795,"end":5108.79,"text":"前面两个例子嘛HPV还有这个戴克教师为什么中央在营养午餐这个部分不能做我想教育部确实因为他就是地方知识的地方前线嘛那特别我们看才华法地方事实上在整个经会上他更丰富了所以在这一个经会"},{"start":5109.511,"end":5114.553,"text":"就教育部的一個立場我們未來一定會部長 財化法讓地方的經費所謂你口中的更豐富不是這樣子說法那真的是要把有一些應該有的財源本來就應該要給地方那地方還有很多的建設要做"},{"start":5125.919,"end":5152.839,"text":"那你不能说才化法之后就什么全部通通都给地方做了嘛是不是这样子所以本席给你建议我觉得你应该要去思考一下当然我相信你心里有一个定见那这当然还有这个你还有这个上级给你一些指导可是我觉得其实是不是应该让全国的孩子吃在这件事情上统一这件事非常重要如果我们现在有的现实这样有的现实那样酸法又没有出来我觉得营养午餐这件事情未来还是会产生一些问题啦我们一定会定定一个"},{"start":5153.979,"end":5180.155,"text":"包含未來各地方縣市政府在推動營養午餐的許多的那個檢核指標我想這個我們一定會把他這一個跟地方來共同建立這樣一個機制我們確保學童吃的健康吃的安全有助於他未來的這個發展口號要呼籲但是我們動作也要落實來做好嗎請委員相信我我一定會這樣做我一直很相信你所以你一定要好好表現謝謝委員支持謝謝"},{"start":5182.773,"end":5207.345,"text":"好謝謝萬美玲委員那部長請回座好請郭鈺晴委員質詢好謝謝主席有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":5216.141,"end":5237.23,"text":"委員長部長早安辛苦了我想最近全台免費營養午餐的政策快速的在擴散目前已經有大概20個縣市他們也跟進上週連嘉義縣他們也宣布115學年度全面要免費但是他有說每年要多支出3.2億"},{"start":5239.431,"end":5256.278,"text":"我想嘉義縣長他也坦白的說其實財政對於所謂的地方政府來講其實是長期蠻吃緊的而且是一個長期的負擔甚至是要靠所謂的節省其他的一些支出來撐這個營養午餐免費的這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":5256.898,"end":5284.242,"text":"那我想也要提醒一下就是說我們身為這個主管機關那也要避免這樣子的一個現象變成是縣市之間的一種福利或者是軍備競賽那我想因為像台北市這樣子的一個資源比較多的這個縣市跟其他的縣市來講其實其他縣市他們在整個所有的財務的結構當然這個壓力也就全面的浮現因為這個要推所謂的"},{"start":5284.682,"end":5299.538,"text":"免費的營養午餐那大家都在講這個再窮不能窮教育啊那再怎麼樣苦也不能苦孩子啊這個是口號大家都知道那但是這也是我們必須要去正式面對的喔那我想呢如果沒有整體的一個預算的考量跟規劃"},{"start":5300.399,"end":5323.533,"text":"那有可能會因為各個縣市他們在排這個所謂的全面的免費營養午餐這件事情去擠壓到其他的教育的經費那這是我們不樂見的所以在這裡我想要還是提醒一下這個教育部我們身為這個主管機關可能之後有一些建議我等一下會再來跟這個部長來分享那我們先來看一下這個日本他們怎麼做的"},{"start":5324.744,"end":5342.574,"text":"其實在日本他們其實有特別針對這個學校的營養午餐所需要的但是他們長期以來大部分都是所謂的家長來做付費那當然這個有一些好處那麼他們的整個所有的做法是包含了這個學校要幫忙所有的設施設備的一個費用"},{"start":5344.255,"end":5364.984,"text":"那另外還有包含這個學校的營養午餐的營運的費用是由學校來支出那其他的就是這些費用之外的營養午餐所需要的其他的費用包含這個餐費的部分是長期是由使用者的家長來做負擔那當然這個最近他們才有一些部分的地方來推動這個免費的營養午餐"},{"start":5367.065,"end":5388.056,"text":"不過這也佔總體在日本的40%而已這個還沒有過半就是只有40%是這樣子的一個設置同時其實他們最主要的原因是為什麼他們沒有全面推是因為他們也擔心因為資源的排擠因為財政的負擔因為這樣會排擠到所謂的營養午餐的品質"},{"start":5392.798,"end":5418.618,"text":"這也是現在其實我們也聽到很多的家長的聲音如果我的價格被鎖死了那我的孩子要吃得更好一點但如果這個價格被鎖死我們沒有考量到其他的一些成本的費用包含儲供或者是包含運輸的成本還有包含物價的成本我價格鎖死在那個地方為了要提供給學生的營養午餐但問題是我排擠到其他的資源"},{"start":5419.338,"end":5445.34,"text":"教育的資源包含校舍包含師資包含一些人力行政等等我排擠到這些所謂的資源的一個預算的時候那我的營養午餐的品質有沒有可能以前不用裹粉的扎扎實實的就是肉一塊但是現在因為這個價格鎖死我變成肉變小塊了成本降低了但我全部都要裹粉家長會開始有一些擔心所以我們必須把這樣子的一個現象"},{"start":5447.041,"end":5464.166,"text":"來提點就是身為主管機關的教育部那在這個部分我想要請教的喔當然我們說營養的就是免費的營養午餐我相信有一些好處但是它相對的來講有哪一些些我們可能要被預期"},{"start":5465.006,"end":5490.316,"text":"要發現的一些面臨的風險跟挑戰那不包含第一就是地方的財政的壓力這個我剛剛有提到再來第二我會不會排擠到其他的教育資源的預算好這個也是再來我的公餐的水準要怎麼樣能夠維持才不會影響到孩子的這個營養的健康那在這裡我想要請教一下這個部長最核心的一個問題"},{"start":5491.676,"end":5519.658,"text":"在所有的各縣市沒有中央統一的一個財政的支撐之下那麼爭相說我要推所謂的這個營養午餐那我們的教育預算真的能夠零排擠嗎這個部分我想請教一下是不是已經開始有些地方的這個縣市政府他們也在反映說我可能因為營養午餐的部分我必須要舉債或者是我也會排擠到其他的教育的支出這個部分"},{"start":5520.719,"end":5545.871,"text":"這個教育部有掌握嗎謝謝委員確實因為我們台灣現在因為產業的巨弱不一它散佈在各個地方縣市政府也不同產業結構這個的差異也造成地方縣市的一些稅收跟中央的投籌分配款這個一般普及它確實是有落差的那委員剛才所關心的它確實會有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":5548.172,"end":5576.372,"text":"現在教育部有掌握到目前已經有些縣市已經開始受到所謂的這些正在排擠不管是獅子也好人力也好或者是學校的教學設備有沒有排擠到過去跟我們報告確實因為像營養午餐因為專門的營養師或者相關的一些人力過去我們中央是因應這個地方它的區域譬如偏鄉或者小規模的怎麼樣有一些"},{"start":5577.313,"end":5597.201,"text":"整體的一些協助然後這一個人力的經費由中央來協助包含偏鄉經濟弱勢包含委員剛才所提的那些所謂的偏鄉的那些廚房等等的這些設備那我們當然也希望說在因應地方一方面它是真的"},{"start":5597.941,"end":5627.029,"text":"在這個委員大家所關心的專法之前已經有10個縣市已經免費使用然後專法還沒有大家還在討論已經有變成20個縣市所以只能說它真的就是一個地方制的前線那教育部這邊我們當然還是希望說中央未來怎麼跟地方來合作來協助我們至少在怎麼樣讓學童吃得健康吃得安全食材我們有監控的機制"},{"start":5627.429,"end":5651.612,"text":"三張EQ現在已經達到99% 98.99那這樣的一個情況我們怎麼樣跟地方合作你們一定要落實因為我們知道地方因為他把這個營養午餐變成地方來這個免費使用他們也在今年也開始編了這個三張EQ的三Q的這個食材上的一些經費我想"},{"start":5652.993,"end":5679.754,"text":"地方也在努力但是委員所提及的所有的這些可能衍生的問題我們教育部也會跟地方來我們必須正面的承認這個所謂的這個政策競賽變成政策競賽這樣子的一個現實我們什麼時候會開始啟動中央對於地方政府在營養午餐這一塊的整個所有的盤點的作業或者是我們有沒有這個建立就是不要排擠到其他的教育運算的一個監測"},{"start":5680.895,"end":5696.819,"text":"謝謝我的提醒我們確實針對過去還沒有全面免費地方自治的時候我們有按照各個地方學校大小還有地方的生活指數有給不同的一些營養午餐確保品質這樣一個機制差別的"},{"start":5701.94,"end":5719.148,"text":"有一些部分是教育部來補助所以未來我們會把這些的機制有一個更積極的那我們有一些更積極的一個配套或者是我們怎麼樣來做盤點然後再來跟我們的地方縣市政府怎麼樣來對接所謂的這個營養午餐的這一塊跟其他的這個教育經費的這個部分希望當然"},{"start":5719.628,"end":5739.422,"text":"不要产生所有的排挤那这个部分如果我们有更具体的一个盘点的计划或者是怎么样跟地方政府来做更好的一个沟通跟桥梁如果有具体的一些计划再提供给我办公室可以吗好的因为其实我们也担心就是人力的结构其实现在在学校就已经产生了非常非常大的我们也不希望发生这样的事"},{"start":5739.522,"end":5762.296,"text":"是因為我們看到很多的營養師他是一人要尋多效啊然後再來再包含一些廚工他們長期領的所謂的這個基本工資可是他們是高壓高溫而且是壓力很大的一個工作的狀況之下其實也很難留得住人這個有可能會成為所謂的制度的一個破口這個部分我們也希望主管器官要來掌握國教署一定要充分掌握"},{"start":5762.836,"end":5778.263,"text":"地方縣市政府在推動營養午餐的所有的這一個因應這個地方改為是一個免費以後所有的真實的這個運作實施的情況好沒問題那接著下來因為只剩下最後的這個兩分鐘不到的一個時間我想這個校室會議的部分"},{"start":5779.784,"end":5796.286,"text":"那麼我是第一個在去年的5月28號開始我就針對校事會議來做這樣子的一個質詢那麼當然其後我也收到有很多的不管是這個教育第一現場的老師跟我們陳情光是我的辦公室至少有100多案快200案"},{"start":5797.307,"end":5826.031,"text":"是老師的對於所謂的校事會議的一個澄清那我想今天我再次的針對所謂的校事會議的一個制度因為之前我們部長有說我們會往好的方向前進那麼預計在去年的12月底本來要公佈但是延到今年的1月12號但是這個公佈我們必須說兩個方向我肯定教育部的作為包含我們刪除匿名結局那麼我相信這個應該會減少很多所謂的爛訴長期大家在"},{"start":5826.291,"end":5854.307,"text":"第一線的緊張跟擔憂好再來的第二那麼明定教師在這個教評會陳述意見的同時其實我們也要去把過去我們忽略掉的這些所謂的程序正義再次的找回來那這個部分其實我們也肯定教育部的一個做法但是呢不管是我們的條文怎麼寫其實後續的怎麼實施怎麼盤點才能夠修正所謂的不足來彌平現在教師看到最新的1月12號的這個"},{"start":5856.268,"end":5880.829,"text":"結果他們還是心裡不免要擔憂啊那這個部分其實我真的還是要提醒這個教育部喔如果說第一我們剛剛講到我們要分流嘛對不對我們不是說這個案件進來之後我們先分流那麼不管是所謂的這個親師溝通的上面的小誤解或者是呢對於所謂的主觀認定對教學風格不滿這個部分我們怎麼樣把它剔除掉但問題是如果寫進寫進"},{"start":5882.27,"end":5909.737,"text":"的這個條文當中那後面其實我們要怎麼樣去執行怎麼樣去規範就像剛剛其實也有委員提到的我光是用教學不力這個字教學不力這四個字其實我的辦公室就已經收到好多的案件到底什麼叫做教學不力這些怎麼定義那我們後續怎麼樣來作為可以檢視的一個判斷的依據那麼當然民間的有一些這個教師的團體他們也在研擬就是說受理分流的一個檢核表"},{"start":5910.337,"end":5934.999,"text":"這個部分其實我也提醒這個教育部我們自己也來做這些檢核表也就是說我們把所有老師他們在現場可能會預期碰到的我們會整理過去的案例然後怎麼樣讓這個現場老師我們也會辦說明會但動作一定要快不要小案大辦因為我們這個校事會就只要只是處理那個已經到不適任這一個要解聘不濟聘的"},{"start":5935.439,"end":5950.188,"text":"了解 所以要怎麼樣來接受所謂的校園事件受理分流的檢核表這個部分我覺得我們教育部自己可以率先先來做起來呼應一下這個一線老師好 那大概什麼時候可以出來給我們"},{"start":5951.665,"end":5975.689,"text":"說明會明天就有一個說明會我們也希望跟各地方政府裡邊也許可以有一個分區進一步的去有更多的一些我們當然理解這個所謂的制度的改變不可能一次一刀切也不可能一次就會馬上的到位當然其實我們聽到在第一線現場的教師朋友們他們還是會有很多的"},{"start":5976.309,"end":5999.512,"text":"心生疑慮或者是他們有承受壓力的這樣的一個空間所以我想如何定期的統計校事會議的案件跟數量還有它的類型還有結案的結果到底是什麼請問大概多久會有一次跟委員報告我們確實在新的修訂辦完以後我們會開始蒐集地方實際發生的案例然後在半年裡邊我們會全盤再做一個檢討"},{"start":6000.393,"end":6016.125,"text":"半年所以是半年基本上是半年的時間我們大概基本上到六月等學期結束我們會有一個希望會有一些能夠讓教師們安心他們讓他們再那再來最重要的一點就是"},{"start":6016.645,"end":6042.476,"text":"對於查無不法的教師這個具體回復名譽的支持的一個做法我希望這個支持的做法能夠盡快趕快然後讓這些教師們他們真的已經接受過這麼長期的一個不管是調查或是結果其實真的也讓他身心俱疲的這樣子一個狀況怎麼樣回復他的這個不是要言議中怎麼樣來讓他的名譽回復這是太重要的一件事情謝謝韋汝關心"},{"start":6044.417,"end":6067.465,"text":"當時第一次在執行這個就有特別提到這個部分我也是將心比心其實這個部分都是我們內部討論裡邊希望能夠恢復老師的一個名義也包括他的一個薪水但是目前還需要有一些法令跟跨部會上的一些溝通包括法令上的一個修正我們也在尋求有沒有其他的替代"},{"start":6067.605,"end":6093.864,"text":"那請盡速具體的提供就是我們的時間要研議到什麼時候讓這些真的備受所謂的身心煎熬的老師們能夠快速的回復他們的名譽因為當老師不容易真的不容易我們替他稍微再多給他們更多的支持可以嗎我完全同意好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝主席好 謝謝郭育琴委員那請部長回座"},{"start":6109.678,"end":6130.795,"text":"好部長需要水啦或者是等一下那部長都可以在上面再喝水好不好再上上去OK好請羅廷維委員質詢"},{"start":6142.1,"end":6155.148,"text":"謝謝趙偉有請部長有請部長等一下水杯就直接拿到部長的講台上面好部長好部長好久不見"},{"start":6156.98,"end":6173.181,"text":"學校午餐牽涉到學生的健康教育公平跟社會照顧是最基本最有共識的一個政策之一目前全台灣超過一半的縣市宣布實施國中小營養午餐免費我想這個你應該都有所了解"},{"start":6175.055,"end":6203.432,"text":"台南市也相繼的宣布要在115學年度前全部的實施形成一個明顯的政策趨勢也因為如此校園午餐不再只是弱勢的補助還有部分的負擔這樣的議題而是攸關全國教育公平財政永續的重大政策請問部長您怎麼看現在各縣市陸續宣布國中小營養午餐免費的一個政策"},{"start":6204.585,"end":6227.017,"text":"我覺得這剛好是符合這一個地方自治法裡面那是屬於地方的一個權責那地方能夠勇於承擔我覺得這不是壞事因為如果由中央統一來做事實上委員可能也知道在民國99年當時這個政府希望用特別預算來這個"},{"start":6229.389,"end":6255.246,"text":"全國統一的免費營養午餐事實上就被監察院糾正這個是不宜的他應該從使用者互惠但是我們的法令屬於這個地方的前線我想我們尊重地方勇於承擔來照顧我們新世代的這些中小學生的營養健康我覺得這是一個好事"},{"start":6255.566,"end":6278.571,"text":"那你認為免費會不會就讓品質下降呢我想不必然就是說地方政府我相信他會納為免費一定有他整體的一個地方縣市地方的一個城市發展包括對新世代小孩子的一些照顧但是教育部也有責任也就是說好 謝謝這句話很重要"},{"start":6279.111,"end":6290.325,"text":"教育部有責任我們在這一個怎麼樣確保學童的食的安全 食的健康就像我們過去由中央來協助地方三張EQ這一個部分我想我們包含未來的這個我要說的"},{"start":6295.552,"end":6313.513,"text":"我們都會來前面的來這個我想投資學生的營養視為教育投資的一個一環這個不是單純的社會福利那不要只是說尊重地方自治卻沒有進一步的制度性支持當然你們有三張EQ我知道"},{"start":6314.534,"end":6338.573,"text":"那我想这个将出现孩子的营养午餐呢是否免费取决于出生于哪个县市遇到哪一任首长的严重教育不平等在基本教育权的一个角度呢我想教育部要扮演的角色也是很重要的那我想现在要讲的是学生午餐费系属于代收代办费也诚如今天报告所写的"},{"start":6338.993,"end":6364.59,"text":"中央推学校营养午餐的政策是为了缩短城乡的一个差距照顾弱势的学生协助地方建立公餐的体系政策精神是补不足建制度但当今天各个县市纷纷推动学校营养午餐免费的一个政策的时候教育部是不是有考虑到如何支持考虑全国统一免费"},{"start":6369.654,"end":6390.655,"text":"這個是地方自治那我們地方應該用地方自己的一個角度去承擔但是免費不應該是最低的標準部長當餐費一旦被固定物價一旦上漲第一個被壓縮就是菜色這是我們擔心的還有品質跟營養我相信每一位縣市首長不希望看到孩子吃的是免費但是清淡但是單調"},{"start":6391.616,"end":6414.825,"text":"甚至是營養不足的營養午餐營養午餐對於學生來說可能是一天三餐中最均衡最重要的一餐因此想請教一下部長教育部目前是否有評估在各縣市自行負擔免費營養午餐的情況下如何避免財政的壓力反而影響午餐它的品質以及多樣性簡單來問"},{"start":6418.254,"end":6444.09,"text":"教育部有沒有評估是否應該承擔一個基本的比例或者是基本的額度而不是全部都丟給地方來承擔我想地方縣市政府因為他是地方自治的前線他會宣布免費提供營養午餐我相信他也同時會把對學童的吃的營養 吃的健康 吃的安全這些等等的因素考量"},{"start":6445.09,"end":6461.125,"text":"納進去成為他的一個政策推動的一個考量那所以我從來不擔心他們會用一個所謂的便宜的一個營養午餐或者吃的不營養不健康的一個午餐的提供那教育部這一個部分"},{"start":6461.545,"end":6474.169,"text":"我想包含委員剛才所關心的怎麼樣個每一餐的菜色裡邊它所包含的營養的機制我們有一些學者專家我們有建立專業的一些輔導的機制包含我們有食材的一個"},{"start":6481.892,"end":6496.629,"text":"这个登录平台确保三张EQ这些等等的机制我们都有的有要跟地方来这个共同讨论我们怎么样去确保地方在推动营养午餐的许多的品质这个机制我们大概"},{"start":6497.871,"end":6517.829,"text":"每年至少我们还是会有一个知性的揭露部长我知道我相信三张EQ你会继续做那我还是希望能够给予更大力度的帮助不是要求你来帮忙他们免费而是更大力度的帮助不管是营养午餐更有品质或者是更加好吃"},{"start":6518.83,"end":6540.04,"text":"這個是教育部可以幫忙協助的加入這一場營養午餐的行列不是要求你只是出錢給予免費制度上的幫忙也是很重要的一個部分回到核心的一句話地方政府願意投資孩子的營養午餐中央政府應該要加強幫助把營養午餐做得更好吃"},{"start":6540.72,"end":6563.992,"text":"更營養而不是勉強的看到這些地方營養午餐免費而已希望教育部能夠思考怎麼樣能夠成為地方政府的後盾今天我們回到整個書面報告學校衛生法第16條要求健康飲食教育12年國教各領域課綱也納入了飲食教育的一個內容並嚴定了高中以下"},{"start":6565.052,"end":6583.322,"text":"學校健康飲食的教育指導以及內容的規劃但食物上各個學校的許多營養午餐課程仍是各做各的學生對於食材來源食安風險糧食的議題理解有限教育部如何評估飲食教育的實際成效這個部分呢"},{"start":6584.022,"end":6594.17,"text":"我想對老師的真人包含這個營養師包含儲物工的公共衛生等等這些教育部我們想我們一定都會跟這個地方繼續持續來合作怎麼樣讓他們更專業更專業之外嘛"},{"start":6600.615,"end":6615.214,"text":"我們也有一些科技上譬如說用AI來開菜單確保這些菜的一些食材的內容有一個金屬的品質我想我們一定會確保這個品質中央跟地方一定是合作剛剛講到這個營養午餐"},{"start":6617.276,"end":6633.602,"text":"就是不拖午餐祕書那再來還有一個出宮的問題但是我要這個部分我要發聲不要要馬兒好不要馬兒吃草現行大多都是由教師去承擔營養午餐祕書的工作長久以來國中小兼任午餐祕書幾乎都是在做功德"},{"start":6634.122,"end":6663.069,"text":"他事實上不一定有老師他看不同的大小規模的區域我還有看過校長做午餐秘書這個我們都知道校長他有專業他願意這個勇於承擔校長都說被迫做功德我們不要騙了當然他如果有專業我們是樂觀其成但午餐秘書的這個行政工作但是卻沒有工作加急午餐專法還沒有完成之前有些擔任午餐秘書的老師能不能給予他們行政加急"},{"start":6663.849,"end":6667.59,"text":"之前我就請教過部長這個問題部長可不可以給我一個回應以現在來講它事實上是減少授課時數授課時數看起來不夠所以有限時在提出多增加授課時數減少嗎願意把它這一個這一個設為這一個堅持"},{"start":6682.856,"end":6711.969,"text":"那地方願意來給予一些工作中央願不願意幫忙我們先不要問地方嘛午餐秘書的加級就是零嘛除工部分的照顧也沒有兼顧到嘛未來的地方肯定會有更多這個勇於承擔在這些那哪時候換部長您承擔哪時候換中央政府承擔去年12月31公布的行政獎金提高1000到2000元有沒有包括行政秘書沒有嘛"},{"start":6712.549,"end":6727.258,"text":"那那個時候我們看到教育部要承擔啊可是教育部有跟地方開會啊一人無私無私好沒關係至少有進步了嘛那中央願意帶頭來承擔要求地方一起來承擔什麼時候我可以看到部長"},{"start":6727.978,"end":6754.636,"text":"行政加緊的部分中央來承擔我們對老師的一個關照我們也看到有些地方縣市已經在加碼了教育部所定的是一個基本的門檻但是地方縣市今天我看到您的回應就是由地方加油地方承擔看到等到教育部一定是跟地方一起合作的"},{"start":6755.276,"end":6779.831,"text":"我想這個態度是很清楚的我想這個部分如果教育部願意帶頭就像這一次行政獎金提高一千到兩千你再來跟地方來說我們來五十五十 六十四十這個都是好的開場嘛這也是一種合作啊並不是你在跟地方來對抗啊所以我還是要幫不管午餐祕書或者是廚工來幫忙我們可以來努力啦"},{"start":6780.171,"end":6801.558,"text":"但是中央跟地方絕對不是對抗的一定是合作的我另外跟你說上次這個行政獎金提高說有通知地方要跟地方一起共同研議50-50我收到的資訊地方說他們根本沒有說要承擔這50%他們開會都是被要求被通知那這個部分他們的說法"},{"start":6802.938,"end":6826.403,"text":"當然我是說我還是回到剛剛說的您願意帶頭好事好事謝謝但是我希望能不能這個部分午餐祕書還有我一直在追蹤的課後照顧寒暑假學藝活動終點費他也有被整個被沒有注意到啊所以上一次我在講的時候張亮萬間次長也說他們要做整體評估兩週了請問評估的整體狀況如何"},{"start":6831.983,"end":6853.911,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分會是比較牽涉是使用者付費包括就是課後輔導這個部分還有這個部分我們會再跟相關的主管機關還有跟家長團體什麼時候可以給我答案已經兩週囉我們會盡快一個月內可以嗎部長一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":6857.064,"end":6883.604,"text":"會牽涉到就是跟相關的我知道 所以你一個月給你溝通嘛好 我們一個月之內我們會開會一個月喔 部長我們來努力啦我們來努力啦我想這個部分真的我們希望啦大家要來努力再來剛剛拍板定案的校事會議的一個新制包括三族匿名檢舉建立案件分流機制新增輔佐人參與機制各界都有一些不滿意的聲音你知道嗎"},{"start":6887.27,"end":6904.698,"text":"應該說民主法治的社會一定任何一個法令都不太可能百分百滿意但是這一次全教總也說這次的修法明顯惡意的濫訴沒有防堵機制啊所以全教團他們也在說修法版本太人質"},{"start":6906.378,"end":6931.68,"text":"這個部分部長要不要回應一下部長 全教總還要有可能走上街頭您可不可以親自的去接他們的陳情書來回應他們我剛才講的跟我們報告民主法治的社會我尊重他們表達他們的希望他們的想法我想我予以尊重但是所有今天的分流包括這個減少停止爛訴等等的這些措施包括"},{"start":6932.481,"end":6949.664,"text":"这一个老师是不是如果有被指控的老师也有这一个协助的人的角色等等的许多都是来自于教师团体他们的诉求我想所有的法令的修正很难一次到位但是至少那个方向"},{"start":6950.345,"end":6964.933,"text":"我們再努力我想這一次的修法許多的意見是來自於那當然我也理解教室會最終底他希望校室會議整個不要設立那當然他有他的一定的這個時空背景"},{"start":6965.453,"end":6993.375,"text":"另外就所有被指控被冤枉的人他的這個到最後的名譽恢復包括他的待遇是不是能夠恢復這個確實我們在努力所以部長最近我近期我提出教師法第25條教師待遇條例第19條的修法版本主要是針對教師停聘後經濟程序一個或恢復聘任的時候停聘期間各項待遇的補發範圍現行警民定本心"},{"start":6994.69,"end":7009.241,"text":"沒有考核獎金、年終獎金、職務加給、學術研究加給以及地域加給其他構成教師報酬的重要項目這些獎金及加給也都是教師待遇的一環所以我主張一起補發部長 您覺得呢"},{"start":7012.039,"end":7040,"text":"我的立場很清楚但是因為我們現在的法令確實是公教有許多相關的規定是綁在一起的也就是說將心比心一個被冤枉怎麼樣去恢復他的名義他的該有的一些待遇也應該權益也應該給予恢復這樣的一個方向我自始至終是持這樣的想法所以你認同我剛剛提出的我想我們很多的委員都有這樣共通的想法"},{"start":7040.64,"end":7064.776,"text":"我是跟大家的想法是一致的好 謝謝 這很重要我想我們都不希望被冤枉但是他受到了整個申訴的過程終於還清他的一個清白能夠拿到他應有的一個權益這個我們大家一起來回復維護他們的權益但是也請你能夠多看看最近全教總他們說的他們擔心小案大辦"},{"start":7065.777,"end":7086.518,"text":"当然我们希望有这样子的申诉机制我是完全无法理解我们当然法令上我们希望半年后我们再收集这个新的办法这个实际实施但是我们怕这半年内又有更多的受害者我必须要讲如果没有改变所有的老师继续被滥诉或者被这个小案大办"},{"start":7087.099,"end":7103.051,"text":"如果我們不給一些時間我們完全無法了解這一個法令修改上的一個好處然後現在就指控還繼續這個小案大辦然後說我們這一個爛數持平論這個是我沒有辦法接受的我們所有花了一年的一個時間"},{"start":7104.827,"end":7125.949,"text":"在聽地方基層的一個聲音結果還用這樣來指控這我沒有辦法接受我想你有你的一個責任跟你在這一年的付出我可以尊重但是我也希望憑心而論全教展他們在講的時候全教總在講的時候他們也不是沒有來由或是沒有理由"},{"start":7126.209,"end":7155.612,"text":"大家都好好的坐下來把所有的意見再次的整合是不是能夠再提出一些更好的版本就像你說的沒辦法一步到位我承認但是你不能夠忽視掉這些聲音好不好民主法治的社會我完全同意一定會有不同的聲音我也常常用這個提醒我自己怎麼樣在大多數人的一個這個能夠權益保障但同時也兼顧到少數人的一個聲音包含權益這我想"},{"start":7156.572,"end":7177.612,"text":"這個基本的態度我是有的所以我們會繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員那部長請回座先讓他休息一下"},{"start":7184.076,"end":7201.554,"text":"好 請葛如君委員質詢葛如君委員之後呢就休息十分鐘 謝謝好 謝謝主席有請鄭應耀部長好 有請部長"},{"start":7207.779,"end":7222.994,"text":"委員好部長好我想在這裡要說明一下我覺得主席真的是暖心主席每一次都讓部會首長回去還有時間喝口水也希望部長你也要成為暖心部長"},{"start":7225.651,"end":7237.126,"text":"這個我們今天真的是好久不見這句話真的不是誇示是對真實情況的一個描述上一次部長出現在我們的教育委員會的這個位置是去年的10月15號"},{"start":7238.7,"end":7263.655,"text":"距離今天97天將近要100天了部長您剛剛有說一年的時間準備這個法案這個法案不管是怎麼樣其實也需要溝通所以您如果可以多來立法院多溝通我想很多事情也許不管是教師 家長 學生都會更加了解那我們這百天當中我們教育委員會有安排過大學法"},{"start":7264.395,"end":7290.89,"text":"有偏鄉地區的教育發展條例有數位素養還有包括營養午餐的專報校職會的專報那教育部呢今天也一度希望安排次長列席不過要不是我們在野黨堅持部長列席我想您可能要神隱超過百天部長您覺得我們剛剛提到這些議題怎麼樣過去這一百天都不重要嗎所以神隱百日嗎"},{"start":7292.225,"end":7319.386,"text":"跟委員報告絕對不是不重要那我也一定程度的尊重體制就是說在我們過去許多有一些專報大概就是次長們這個來協助那跟團隊來協助那也感謝委員的體諒我也確實也我從來不敢怠惰事實上也跟利用有一些空閒的時間我去了解地方包含剛才我也跟委員講"},{"start":7320.687,"end":7335.769,"text":"譬如說我們到偏鄉去有一些老師他們特別提到校長提到就是說他們有這一個安全的保險過去是我們辦法是只有到都市來到偏鄉山區教書才有"},{"start":7336.149,"end":7353.996,"text":"安全的這個特別的一個保險我們現在也把它重篡了解所有的偏鄉讓它都能夠雖然它有這個偏鄉上的移動但是還是暴露在一個相對危險的一個場域下我們也來精進幫老師這個保險幫老師蓋宿舍幫老師等等的這些東西"},{"start":7358.798,"end":7382.917,"text":"您說明的很好啊多來嘛這個溝通不是很棒嗎那為什麼過去這一百天將近一百天這麼少的時間出現在這呢希望您下次多來好不好我想我們這是您的職責啊您剛剛提到的很多有這麼多專業的幕僚大家都可以協助您啊在立院這裡我們希望人民直接要跟您溝通嘛這很合理吧 對吧"},{"start":7384.518,"end":7411.308,"text":"謝謝委員尤其您最近登上媒體版面很可惜的還不是教育的議題是政治的事件被對岸列入黑名單一個教育部長如果專心的做教育的議題誰會把你弄到什麼黑名單呢你應該是在人民最愛的暖心的名單裡頭這真的是非常可惜我想我們都有替部長發聲但是部長你有替全國的師生發聲嗎"},{"start":7412.828,"end":7438.813,"text":"我們其實沒有把您列入黑名單我一直念之再之對嘛 您是念之再之而且還很優雅嘛您曾經說您是優雅的台灣人我真的是希望您是一位優雅的教育部長拿出教育部應有的立場跟堅持要捍衛我們師生應有的言論自由 遷徙自由千萬不要淪為陸委會或其他部會的下級機關"},{"start":7440.453,"end":7461.319,"text":"您是教育部長顯然不是政治部長我們也希望我一路走來就是身為一個政務官我依法行政如果您做得非常好您就著重在教育的議題誰會把你放到政治的黑名單裡我不曉得中國他到底怎麼樣一個想法您知道您有一些政治的言論"},{"start":7462.779,"end":7483.168,"text":"所以没有关系这个大家各自可以开放讨论但没有关系希望您多来我们多探讨教育的议题就不会有人把你放到什么政治黑名单我们首先还是要感谢教育部其实去年31号10月31号宣布调整教师终点费跟导师费"},{"start":7484.528,"end":7509.183,"text":"這次中央發紅包地方買單50%不過沒有關係有一個開始也是好的但是因為現在不確定教育部的撥款期程各地方政府的進度不一樣比如說新北已經用人事費用將導師費調整成4000塊但終點費還沒有跟上一些教育財政比較困難的縣市則是兩者都不敢調整"},{"start":7510.223,"end":7528.838,"text":"是不是部長這個新年禮物發了但是作業期程不太明朗各地方政府步調不一很可能會造成教育現場混亂部長可不可以在此明確說明這次調整教師終點費導師費中央的作業期程到底怎麼樣教育部經費預計何時可以撥給地方政府"},{"start":7529.645,"end":7553.899,"text":"什麼時候跟委員報告 中央已經播了已經播了 全部都播了地方都收到了我們在1月15號1月15號以前是回溯的還是回溯 然後我們1月15號以前不用領據 我們就先播的方式1月15號好 所以我想這個部分也希望這個中央要做到的責任一定要及時做到不然現場可能會有點混亂再我們來談一下午餐的議題我們談一下午餐的議題"},{"start":7557.565,"end":7576.804,"text":"其實大家都在關心大家的健康過去一般性補助款大概一年補助地方政府74億近來有非常多的縣市開始宣布營養午餐免費現在有22個縣市有兩個縣市還沒有跟進但是各地我們是各自予以尊重的"},{"start":7577.364,"end":7599.387,"text":"不過中央需要負擔的金額是大幅減少的情況之下也希望教育部在這個議題上可以更加的中立因為這是學童的健康日本 韓國都透過明確的法規來規範中央地方的經費分擔的比例比如說食材費是家長或地方負擔人事費用可能是由中央政府來買單"},{"start":7601.188,"end":7614.696,"text":"既然目前大部分的餐費可能地方支應中央可能就可以透過其他方面的補助來拉近財政不佳的縣市和大城市之間的距離我們有看到教育部其實在109年跟110年都有編列12.5億還有32億來補助廚房的相關設備"},{"start":7623.001,"end":7649.195,"text":"廚房的廚工工作量很重可能找不到人等等的隨著科技發展其實AI 科技 智能 智慧都可以來幫助我想國科會也有打造AI的中央廚房更在今年年底前完工您剛有提到AIAI如果只是做這個recipe當然很棒但是硬體的部分其實智慧導入"},{"start":7650.536,"end":7665.223,"text":"廚房新的設備的建置或改善講出辦法其實是中央可以來做的上一次補助相關的設備已經是五年前了這個部長有沒有機會針對這個部分再來提出一些補助跟講出的辦法"},{"start":7667.731,"end":7682.487,"text":"我想謝謝委員這也是一個很好的例子就是說中央跟地方比較大型的中央廚房的這個我想我們可以來合作可以來研議一下好不好那研議的結果多久可以跟我們分享一下"},{"start":7684.19,"end":7705.237,"text":"一個月好 一個月 謝謝我想接著想來討論廚餘的問題其實每天校園的廚餘有500公噸2023年調查報告七成的菜色都有剩下來的問題當然大家吃不一定全部吃光光但是剩食也確實滿多的"},{"start":7706.798,"end":7733.851,"text":"一年光食材本身的浪費高達22億元新台幣加上這個農業部門可能完全禁止廚藥養豬後續的廚餘成本又追加上去可能又耗費掉很多資源現在根據這個午餐制度其實就是要進行一個相關的公餐但部長您看一下左邊其實本來我們的目標值是說每週供應三份乳品"},{"start":7734.851,"end":7756.838,"text":"結果實際是右邊的變成什麼呢比較高價的東西可能買的不多或買不起結果為了滿足這個目標值結果怎麼樣變成多吃兩碗飯這沒有不好但是這個飯的量可能就過多就剩下來的可能就多了造成剩食浪費"},{"start":7758.278,"end":7785.459,"text":"我們看到美國兩週前有公布這個新的飲食指南核心從熱量計算改成重視食物品質衛福部的時部長也在受訪的時候說會修訂每日飲食指南第二季會發布不管衛福部做得怎麼樣其實我們發現我們教育部還有我們的整個教育環境在公餐制度上的規定其實相對矢板請問部長這未來能不能有一點彈性空間"},{"start":7786.3,"end":7800.812,"text":"不要拘泥在熱量食材倒數上的限制主要要兼顧孩童健康同時重視食物的品質同時也要減少剩食的浪費這個部分有沒有在研議"},{"start":7802.319,"end":7822.561,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心我們的做法跟想法跨部會的合作都跟委員的想法是一致的我們就希望他吃得健康也不要有剩食不要浪費所以不要拘泥在熱量食材倒數未來應該會有一些新的目標吧不然這個目標看起來打不到會有一些問題"},{"start":7823.662,"end":7840.745,"text":"我們會跟國建署一起來合作好那我們之後會跟部會來緊密溝通那另外呢剛剛您自己也提到了有這個AI協助午餐開菜單這個也是不錯啦那我們AI基本法也剛通過啦那當然也不要做排擠掉"},{"start":7841.386,"end":7867.395,"text":"人類的工作但是AI來協助是很好的現在這個已經是五月份了去年五月這個運用上面有沒有什麼具體的成果可以給我們來拍拍手鼓掌一下比如說廚藝有沒有減少學童滿意度有沒有上升有沒有具體的目標或成效這個部分有沒有現在要說的還是整理出來我們會後再把相關的一些資訊提供給委員"},{"start":7868.115,"end":7884.43,"text":"好 希望有好的成效就可以分享啦那最後我想請教一下部長關於教育部版的這個午餐法的問題第十一條關於中央應召開學校午餐諮詢會的成員代表"},{"start":7885.919,"end":7911.94,"text":"那你們列了很多啊這個中央衛生福利啊農業啊環境啊採購主管機關啊採購很重要列上去地方主管機關教育營養保健食品衛生相關的專家學者但是部長你有沒有發現啊學校你們自己的文件都寫得很清楚所謂的學校"},{"start":7913.223,"end":7934.595,"text":"有三個很重要的成員 親 師 生老師在哪裡 家長在哪裡 學生在哪裡家長在哪裡 老師在哪裡 學生在哪裡"},{"start":7938.12,"end":7965.712,"text":"不過我想謝謝謝謝部長很仔細的看啦你自己也嚇一跳對不對你自己也嚇一跳對不對這是你教育部版建議的文字啊過去大概都是從教育部版午餐法上面專業的想像但是我們怎麼樣把利害關係人剛才所講的親師生也能夠有一定程度讓他們能夠意見能夠我想謝謝委員的提醒對啊然後你說親師生午餐團散"},{"start":7967.322,"end":7991.908,"text":"團善業者在哪裡業者在哪裡業者在哪裡業者裡邊事實上他也包含這個在保健食品營養等等的所以部長教育部很專業我們都認同但是法條很重要所以一定要能夠落地"},{"start":7992.932,"end":8011.287,"text":"不要在高空建個樓閣沒有辦法落地午餐法大家都很期待結果午餐諮詢會議如果沒有家長代表沒有學生代表沒有教師代表也沒有營養師代表也沒有團善業者的代表"},{"start":8012.669,"end":8028.47,"text":"這是怎麼樣落地呢學生是不一定有在地方裡面但是老師啊或者怎麼樣我想營養師這一定有的學生意見重不重要當然重要對嘛那學生有代表很自然啊我們也在我們也通過青年基本法啦對不對我同意"},{"start":8029.951,"end":8041.598,"text":"這個委員的一個說法就是說我們把利害關係人的權益他的想法看怎麼樣能夠落地不要繞一圈嘛不用直接說透過誰誰誰可以代表進來就代表進來好不好這些人我們剛剛提到的才是最直接碰觸到營養午餐的人"},{"start":8050.023,"end":8076.364,"text":"如果教育部排除這些人進入午餐政策的規劃和推動怎麼可能規劃出符合食物的政策到時候可能又有很多食物上的問題啦我們真的是非常希望能夠跟部長一起來合作也希望部長暖心的回饋在法條的建議上面好不好 請部長好好思考 可以嗎謝謝 謝謝委員提醒 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8078.171,"end":8091.738,"text":"好謝謝葛如君委員那部長署長請回座現在休息10分鐘之後請張雅玲委員準備質詢謝謝"},{"start":8707.358,"end":8718.367,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會請張雅玲委員質詢現在主席 我們有請部長有請鄭部長委員長"},{"start":8727.213,"end":8743.503,"text":"好部長好就是我想這個在今天要討論營養午餐那前陣子這個台北市長蔣萬安市長他也就率先提出了這個免費午餐的免費午餐這件事情那其實我收到非常多基層的家長來跟我表達一個擔心就是說"},{"start":8744.964,"end":8767.361,"text":"擔心不知道到底吃什麼會吃到什麼東西然後特別是說小朋友又在發育階段其實非常在乎的就是吃的內容到底是什麼有沒有辦法很健康有沒有辦法幫助他們發育成長那也擔心說現在其實已經大家也知道嘛我們的廚餘大概一年就500噸了如果今天是免費的會不會到更多的這個廚餘所以"},{"start":8770.302,"end":8790.367,"text":"今天想要跟部長來討論就是說我們如何在現在的這個狀態之下那有沒有一些部應該要來強力要求的跟監督的就是說我們現在來看一下這個是韓國的一個案例就是韓國在2011年的時候"},{"start":8791.167,"end":8803.325,"text":"他其实也提出了一个免费学校公餐但是他们发现了有一个学术研究的sustainability他发现就是说今天我们如果把这个预算"},{"start":8804.861,"end":8827.301,"text":"拿走去做營養午餐的話那他其實上對於體育教育的經費就發現了顯著的一個縮減因為在為了支援免費午餐的一個龐大的開銷他必須要去挪用原本屬於校務基金的體育相關的項目那當時這個數據也可以看到每所學校每年從校務基金提取的體育資金大概是310萬韓元那"},{"start":8831.084,"end":8857.218,"text":"這個實際的影響到是什麼是學生的健康的負面影響在全面實施免費午餐的學校裡面來看學生的體適能呢是下降了從這個優良成績裡面下降了1.5%所以我們非常清楚的看到如果我們沒有想清楚就去做這件事情的話呢它很有可能會去排擠到我們教育其他很重要的一些預算"},{"start":8858.879,"end":8881.111,"text":"那我想說以台北市來說也花25億元來推動營養午餐的話呢它有可能的抉擇會是什麼這個我想部長也非常清楚的就是說以台北市現在其實每一年是有編列40億來面對這些老舊校舍的修繕跟改建那國中小校舍大概已經在台北市已經有533棟已經超過屋齡50年"},{"start":8884.753,"end":8902.552,"text":"如果今天蔣市長願意把經費投注到老舊校舍的修建的話那這個速度就會更快學校的設備也就會更好那我想問就是說從部長您的觀點來看您覺得您會如何建議呢"},{"start":8904.759,"end":8921.497,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實這個地方願意勇於承擔這不是壞事但是我們確實會在意就是這一個營養午餐的提供的一個品質所以我們目前來講從教育部我們要確保他是不是使用山上EQ國有食材在地"},{"start":8922.077,"end":8939.695,"text":"然后健康新鲜等等的那第二个我们当然也会从专业里边来提供许多营养午餐的一些营养成分等等的一些协助第三个就是说在整个里边我们会透过一定的一个检核的机制希望去了解各地方"},{"start":8941.024,"end":8966.864,"text":"政府的這個地方的這個營養協同營養午餐實施的一個情況陳儒委員剛才提醒得很好如果你這個地方要把營養午餐當成你施政的一個城市治理的政策我們樂觀其成這是地方自治法授予的權利但是你要確保品質那如果因為這樣而造成協同的一個健康影響他的這個體育因為帶來的健康的一個這個"},{"start":8969.56,"end":8986.661,"text":"下降那我想這並不是我們所樂見的那這個部分我想我們會中央跟地方來合作來把那個請和機制我們也會充分的讓地方知道我們是在意你這一個當然我們尊重地方"},{"start":8988.15,"end":9014.618,"text":"這個的前線但是我們一定會在這個品質上一定會把關了解 我想這個家長最擔心的還是品質這件事情是對 那特別是說因為我這邊剛好也收到一份資料就是說我們台北市的這個特教生跟疑似生的比例其實是相當高的大概百分之占全體的學生百分之七所以我想如果說我們今天在整體教育來盤點的話"},{"start":9016.138,"end":9028.981,"text":"家長應該會更希望說我們是不是可以有校舍的增建加速或者是說可以得到更好的師資對家長來說可能會是更關鍵的一件事情不過我還是要講回來品質的部分品質的部分我也是覺得說我們可能有幾抱歉喔"},{"start":9030.899,"end":9046.869,"text":"我想有三點是需要教育部來積極的把關那在可能相關的草案上面應該要再來研擬就是說針對於制度性的營養標準專業人力的配置以及食源來源的控管也就是剛剛部長所講的三張EQ那這個版本其實是我們參考了這個"},{"start":9048.61,"end":9070.32,"text":"美國的國家學校午餐法他其實是有設定一個最低的營養成分標準我們現在我們現在雖然說我們也有一個相關的可能說我們是說我們要有食物內容及營養基準我們算有強調多樣的食材均衡營養等等可是我們其實沒有一個統一的"},{"start":9071.801,"end":9098.839,"text":"执行的统一性跟监督的力度也没有一个完整的一个营养成分的标准所以呢我想这个部分其实是要再来努力的去强化因为才能够去确保小朋友吃进去的东西是有符合到一个营养标准的那再来就是说专业人员的定期把关因为目前其实说我想这个部长都非常清楚了就是营养师的人力短缺目前呢根据营养师工会的一个资料就是说目前大概是一笔"},{"start":9101.74,"end":9120.371,"text":"全台灣的中小學大概有177萬人可是總共只有700個專業營養師現在台北市有94所學校本來應該是要應聘94位營養師可是他們只聘了36位所以等於只有補齊了38%的一個應聘需要"},{"start":9123.991,"end":9145.829,"text":"那根據現在的學校衛生法規定只有40班以上才需要配置一個營養師可是也只有22%的國小達到這樣子的門檻所以這告訴我們的是什麼學校本來就沒有一個法定的很多學校沒有法定必備的營養師那剛剛講的是品質接下來就是營養師如何來協助這件事情所以我想問一下在我們的新版"},{"start":9146.75,"end":9154.619,"text":"是不是會將營養師的人力比進行一個比較明確的規範那比例又是多少是500比1還是550比1可不可以請教一下部長我們現在的一個設計是550配一個是不是請署長"},{"start":9165.031,"end":9192.651,"text":"好 可以 我們簡單說明好不好簡單說明兩點第一個就是目前公職的部分550比1那也跟營養師聯合全聯會做個溝通他們建議有一些小校或比較偏鄉的那要顧慮因為用人數算可能算不到沒有辦法幫助到所以這些我們會在修專法的時候的條文跟委員一起來探討所以兩點第一點就是人數上是550比1第二點要顧慮到比較特殊情形對 沒錯是"},{"start":9195.25,"end":9204.316,"text":"好 那這個部分的話就是在現在會在專法的版本上面去做一個調整嗎因為剛剛是聽說好像是在專法上面要再來討論"},{"start":9206.144,"end":9224.912,"text":"所以現在是所以剛才部長他事前就有開會如果專法一直在處理的過程中不能等那現在地方政府跟我們會就一些措施性來努力就如以往我們會聚在食材上一直努力那這一波可能會在人事上大家一起來想"},{"start":9225.452,"end":9249.597,"text":"好 了解那接下來還有一個部分就是在於三張EQ何去何從我覺得這個也是蠻關鍵的地方因為我們過去是每年38億由教育部來補助我們的地方但是還是回到才化法才化法已經撥給各地的縣市政府自行運用所以未來除非我們是法律明確有規範不然可能"},{"start":9250.421,"end":9272.314,"text":"地方政府就不會依循這個原則來採購循環我們確實今年我們去查地方是不是也確實的在15年跟14年有把這樣一個331Q的經費編在這個年度的預算所以是已經在盤點了嗎那是不是可以讓我們知道這個盤點的結果大概什麼時候可以知道"},{"start":9273.715,"end":9297.897,"text":"今天下班前給委員好 謝謝那再來還有接下來要回到這個校園這個不適任教師的解聘辦法那我想部長應該已經很清楚的知道我們1月15號老師們還要再走上街頭在抗議那我想要針對一個我一直在強調也一直在爭取的一件事情就是很多的老師其實進入校師會議之後最後他其實是"},{"start":9299.315,"end":9309.93,"text":"沒事的他其實是無辜的可是因為這整個過程之中其實他要常可能經過不是數個月而已有時候甚至到一年的時間其實非常長的那我不曉得說"},{"start":9311.616,"end":9339.679,"text":"我們現在在這個名譽上面因為老師在這個過程之中可能會被講說他做了什麼事情然後他會有很多的傳言出來其實是影響到他的名譽那我會認為說我們應該要有一些協助的機制可是我們現在其實並沒有任何名譽回覆或實際的補償的機制那你們一直跟我們說在研議那我想要知道何時會研議完成那是否有一個明確的時程呢"},{"start":9341.175,"end":9356.948,"text":"我想跟委員報告確實有很多的委員也都在關心我們如果被冤枉我的態度將心比心如果被冤枉我事實上可能我們現場的老師他們事實上比我還更優雅"},{"start":9357.668,"end":9385.775,"text":"以我的个性我大概很难优雅所以我们事实上一直在努力那全序部这边我们也在积极在沟通全序部这边说不定如果从法令上源头上来来跟着改那人种这边大概在人事里边因为我们现在有许多的法律公教是绑在一起的我们希望能够用最短的时间里边能够把这样的一个法令能够建立共识然后修改法令能够"},{"start":9386.235,"end":9414.513,"text":"对老师的权益有多一份的一些这个保障包含民意的恢复以上那我想问一下这大概是我们还要多久的时间可以有一个比较明确的那因为我觉得我认为啦因为这个制度就是在进行嘛现在就是还是会有校师会议那现在如果我们没有任何的积极的作为的话我觉得还是会有很多老师那我们可不可以有一个明确的时程啊那我们应该利用这个机会跟教师团体说我们当然现在的法令没有办法一次到位嗯"},{"start":9414.813,"end":9429.905,"text":"我们修法一直在往那个方向走就是说给一些时间我们一定会有一个能够更支撑老师能够安心留在学校亲师合作去指导小孩子我想那是我们乐见的"},{"start":9430.472,"end":9446.834,"text":"好 那我想這個是不是一個月之後來跟我們報告一下現在的進度好不好可以啊可以嗎 一個月之後跟我們報告一下我們會跟人事單位來跟進度進度的部分那最後一個部分是想要在講特教加擠回溯的部分"},{"start":9449.332,"end":9468.844,"text":"我其實在1月10號質詢之後現在也又超過10天了那我認為特教家級真的是對老師來說我們去年就已經承諾可是在今年2月1號才執行我認為對老師來說其實不是很尊重啦所以上次是次長有回覆我說剩下四個縣市那我想要再來做一下進度我們現在又過了兩個禮拜之後我們現在溝通的狀態是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":9471.118,"end":9490.54,"text":"我想特教家籍這個部分確實這一個國教署做了相當的努力也有一定程度的獲得到院長的一個支持才可能在今年的2月1號通過那當然這個建立的過程裡面地方政府事實上還有面臨到許多不一致的一個看法"},{"start":9491.181,"end":9509.523,"text":"我想这里边也要谢谢我们彭署长他跟地方上的扯充那当然我们也知道特教老师他们希望说能够像这一个我们其他中小学老师能够中点会或者家里能够恢复能够追溯到这个9月1号这我想"},{"start":9510.003,"end":9527.313,"text":"我們來演繹這個確實它有一定的一些挑戰跟難度有啦 因為上次我們問的時候次長是說他們剩下四個縣市嘛那我想問的就是說過了兩個禮拜我們現在溝通的狀況如何呢還是依然在卡還是怎麼樣是不是可以簡單回覆一下"},{"start":9528.393,"end":9551.498,"text":"跟委員報告兩點第一個那次跟委員報告的是去年在協調的時候有四個縣市到六個縣市需要進一步協商後來大家都同意覺得這是好事那因為這個新的變化往前提的這件事是不是給我們一點時間1月7號算一個月嘛那時候是不是給我們2月7號前跟您回報好不好好那我們就2月7號的時候再來追一下好不好謝謝"},{"start":9553.817,"end":9575.681,"text":"好謝謝張雅琳委員那部長署長請回座請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝主席請鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":9585.643,"end":9608.069,"text":"委員好部長好其實在本席進行質詢之前我還是要針對今天排定這個專報有發表一些我的看法今天的專報其實原定是那個劉昭偉原定在去年的11月27號排第一次排審的時候呢當時教文的委員就有表示說因為才化法的影響希望教育部這邊能夠跟很完善的先跟地方做充分的溝通"},{"start":9608.709,"end":9622.109,"text":"那在12月24號第二次主條的時候呢教文的委員們還是一樣也針對在人力啊設備經費等相關的配置呢要求地方政府跟我們我們必須要跟地方政府有共識之後來進行專報然後擇期再審查"},{"start":9624.412,"end":9642.464,"text":"那从12月24号到今天1月19号我不太确定说这两个礼拜三个礼拜的时间教育部是不是已经跟地方政府有共识了那如果今天的专报我们要聚焦在经费的分配跟权责的划分觉得说现在也没有什么实质讨论的进展以及效益"},{"start":9642.924,"end":9667.797,"text":"但我尊重說劉昭偉的排案權也希望教育部等一下就是好好的說明一下這兩週實際上跟地方政府在經費跟權責你們有怎樣的共識的進展首先我們先來關心營養午餐經費權責如何分配才能夠保障學生的權益這兩天很熱烈的在討論的就是台北市他有提出免費的營養午餐之後後續有許多縣市都跟進了"},{"start":9668.177,"end":9697.523,"text":"那目前有20個縣市總共有20個縣市會來推營養午餐免費以前是有10個縣市那在這幾天跟進了之後已經來到20個縣市那這個部分本席相信教育部的態度應該就是說尊重地方自治營養午餐就是屬於地方自治的項目首先本席先請教那麼今年教育部115年會在針對之前補助營養午餐相關的這個項目會還是一樣會補助給地方政府嗎"},{"start":9699.895,"end":9718.855,"text":"基本上根文報告已經這些錢就是等於都直接撥到這個地方所以我們大概在所以你應該就是說以115年度教育部所編的預算這個部分不在教育部直接給教育單位的補助是在統籌款裡面"},{"start":9720.296,"end":9736.534,"text":"所以说如果不是像以前一样是直接补助给教育局处的话多数的地方政府还是可以推免费的营养午餐表示现行的营养午餐的要求的相关的规范地方是有能力有余裕来执行来负担的"},{"start":9737.014,"end":9761.474,"text":"那如果说未来才化法施行地方政府的裁员更增加应该也会有更多的预算来进行相关的这些配置那所以本席认为说教育部你们就做好原则性的规范跟制定相关的标准我们来把关品质跟食材的安全让地方政府可以依循然后也让他们有因地制宜的空间这个部长您觉得呢"},{"start":9761.894,"end":9786.722,"text":"是我想謝謝委員這個的提醒我們確實是如同委員所提的我們就是在朝那個方向在這個建立規範包含專業的提供包含確保這個三商EQ各地方縣市政府能夠落實然後以及在整個食安裡邊我們也會定期的去查核然後做資訊的一些揭露"},{"start":9787.162,"end":9794.37,"text":"好 那第二個我想請問教育部最近一次與地方政府針對營養午餐召開會議是在什麼時候"},{"start":9797.659,"end":9819.619,"text":"跟委員報告在上週大概我們剛才委員問到三個單位那當時有答應委員會我們分別都有進行包含營養師全聯會包含地方政府包含統餐供應業者跟餐廚供應業者三個單位我們都在那有沒有什麼達成針對這些經費有沒有怎樣的共識"},{"start":9820.519,"end":9846.036,"text":"地方政府的部分对于人事经费的部分我们三项都分别谈分别谈大体上的确还是在虽然他们有一些统筹的经费但仍然希望教育部能够对局处这个层次了解之后给他们在预算上能够显示回编到114等等对业者的部分希望在未来的厨余的处理"},{"start":9846.676,"end":9868.213,"text":"或是相關的未來免費之後的品質大家希望能夠有一個共識跟營養的基準跟要求品質的做法那跟營養師全聯會的部分剛剛有提到比例之外也關注到公辦公營之外能不能未來逐年有一些計畫包含太小的學校怎麼樣聯合共參"},{"start":9870.676,"end":9882.355,"text":"那么就是针对这三个部分我们有大概的去谈那刚刚讲到了县市他们是支持营养师的人力的配置但是这个经费市市也是希望是中央来移住"},{"start":9884.637,"end":9900.224,"text":"這一點的部分550基本上大家沒有特別的不同的意見但是經費上的確這就是如去年跟委員報告的還需要繼續來所以說以縣市的看法的態度來講他們對經費上我們"},{"start":9902.945,"end":9925.946,"text":"等於是跟教育部現在是沒有一個共識的交集就是覺得說人力配置是需要的但是經費他還是希望教育部來出那第三個部分我想提到的是現有的規範包含三張EQ的部分鼓勵使用國產食材國產豬肉這些相關的規範都是持續的運作而且也是作為教育部來考核辦理營養午餐的基準"},{"start":9926.627,"end":9950.052,"text":"那目前呢地方縣市呢符合相關規定規範都繼續在辦理所以本席有點不能理解為什麼不能等才化法確定事實之後再來進行相關經費的討論那未來經費就是都給地方之後教育部我們會不會針對就是地方營養午餐來辦理相關的這個獎勵機制就是說他們辦理的這個狀況我們有個獎勵的機制我們這個機制會怎麼運作"},{"start":9955.353,"end":9982.163,"text":"謝謝委員的這個指導我們確實也朝那個方向就是說未來這個地方自治的一個權限這個營養午餐回到地方嘛那我們怎麼樣透過監督透過專業的協助透過資訊的揭露然後能夠去理清表揚好的一個縣市我們確實會朝那個獎勵的一個方向提供一些相對的一些這個經費來協助地方"},{"start":9984.384,"end":9998.222,"text":"所以教育部现在就是如同我刚刚所询问的这个你会有一个相关的一个奖励的机制在他们办理营养物它这个部分那那个比较详细的办法你们现在还没有演绎出来还在讨论中"},{"start":9999.236,"end":10020.039,"text":"这个部长在上上周就有交代那我们会在一个月内有一个草案给部长那届时也看部长在怎么样跟委员做一个沟通如果有相关的进度也希望给我们叫我们委员会那最后我要强调就是说我们都支持营养午餐一定要有一个专法来处理但是因为目前才化法还没有"},{"start":10021.14,"end":10035.89,"text":"定下就是相关的大家对这个有共识而且现在现有的规范是持续在运作的所以我觉得我们应该等财化法确定的事情之后再来做相关经费跟权责的讨论才能够比较确实的审查"},{"start":10036.69,"end":10057.398,"text":"那之前本席再質詢的時候就問過我們要怎樣去監督或是規定地方政府要將預算有多少的比例用在教育經費窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子這個大家都一直在強調但我們擔心就是說才化法施行之後理論上地方政府會得到這個經費的挹注"},{"start":10058.598,"end":10083.676,"text":"但是這個經費是不是確實的用在教育的項目所以現在很多地方的局處長會擔心以前是很明確的由教育部來補助給教育局處的這些經費未來統籌給了縣市之後他們也不知道自己的局處能夠分到多少經費在教育的項目那會不會因為縣府有其他的規劃其他項目排擠到教育的預算"},{"start":10084.176,"end":10106.33,"text":"所以这个是大家其实包括家长都非常的担心我们不只是担心营养午餐还有我们很多学校相关的我们一些设施设备要改善的项目那这个部分呢希望教育部也是可以针对地方的这些项目呢给予一定程度的建议就是说你们要有多少的比例的预算用在教育的经费"},{"start":10106.71,"end":10120.55,"text":"而且我希望說如果未來有相關競爭型計畫或是獎勵的機制我們應該將地方政府分配給教育預算的比例納入審核的項目部長您覺得"},{"start":10122.531,"end":10137.462,"text":"謝謝委員確實委員這一個看到了我們怎麼樣去確保品質一個非常好的一個方向我們確實也會就像剛才我在跟其他委員報告就是我們331Q我們在15年我們會去查"},{"start":10138.263,"end":10158.921,"text":"去檢視22個地方縣市他在331Q裡面是不是跟114年所編的預算一樣我們因應當時財務法從去年開始我們就跟地方教育局處所長也希望他們知道說當每一年我們中央補助給地方的當這個統籌分配款直接改為整比到地方那"},{"start":10160.023,"end":10176.785,"text":"縣市首長當然有他的城市發展施政的一些方向跟重點但是我們也希望教育的這個經費能夠要一定的還是要框在教育局而不是因為這樣所以我們會透過考核檢視的一個機制去"},{"start":10177.346,"end":10201.897,"text":"除了說建議我們希望說他保留一定的比例在教育這方面的之外呢除了剛剛講營養午餐還有一些學校相關的設施設備是需要更新的改善的所以這個我會希望說我們是建議說我們要把地方政府他分配給教育局處相關單位這個經費的比例我們要納入是一個審核的項目之一這個請教育部可以審酌"},{"start":10203.058,"end":10220.456,"text":"那接下来我要跟您谈到就是关于校事会议这个办法修正的部分那有教师团体是很强烈的表达强烈的诉求他们在1月25号会到教育部前面来抗议要求废除校事会议我想知道教育部你们目前的态度跟立场是什么"},{"start":10221.428,"end":10244.701,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指導校制會議在108年這個訂定這個辦法本來我們原來的一個制度就是有一個校教評會但是後來因為在當時的時空裡面校園這個發生了一些特定的一些這個事件所以有更多的人會期待說是不是能夠讓"},{"start":10245.842,"end":10253.653,"text":"一方面不要影響到學校的正常的一個教學但是對那些不適應老師有一個校事會議能夠專門的客觀的團體來客觀的人專業團這個人員來協助學校解決這個問題"},{"start":10261.344,"end":10279.649,"text":"但是我們從去年所看到的這麼一整年裡面確實有如同這個教師團體提到的小案大辦原來學校老師只是一個班級經營上的疏漏他事實上可以經過提醒那就改善了結果也都大小事都"},{"start":10280.349,"end":10300.865,"text":"所以其实部长您很了解说在现场在我们学校里面发生的这样子的现况那其实一个办法的起因一定是有缘由我们当初的初中是为了协助但是到现在变成是一种困扰是一种干扰甚至是对教师是一种伤害的时候我们就必须要做修正"},{"start":10301.405,"end":10326.391,"text":"那在校士會議的辦法修正公布之前教育部有告訴本席就說你們有多次跟教師團體家長團體教育團體縣市政府以及現場的教師們溝通那我想知道說你們這個溝通大概是一個怎樣的狀況是不是大部分的團體都有支持四次修正的版本嗎我想跟我們報告民主法治的一個社會當然"},{"start":10328.018,"end":10336.403,"text":"有部分的一些團體或者人員他希望一次到位釜底抽薪就是把整個校士會廢除掉"},{"start":10337.062,"end":10364.421,"text":"或者这里边谈到说这一个有受到阴亡的这一些权利权利怎么样去恢复这个确实第一个我们要考量所有来自于台湾的各个不同的团体包含怎么样去确保这个儿少的一个权益包含怎么样去兼顾这一个确保老师的一个专业的一个教学我想这一个我们以现阶段来讲我只能讲"},{"start":10365.899,"end":10373.811,"text":"目標大家是一樣的能夠回顧到由學校校教評會來處理這個事情但是以現階段我們全橫"},{"start":10376.255,"end":10399.913,"text":"社会的一个各个不同的团体的一个声音那我们做了这样一个这个现有的这个1月12号公布的一个调这个修正这个办法当然没有办法一步到位我非常我感到抱歉但是它可能是目前我们在逐渐迈向亲私合作回悟到校园有一个更"},{"start":10400.794,"end":10416.779,"text":"友善的更好的一個教學學習的環境這是我們必須要努力的謝謝部長本期也理解到我們教育部的難處啦其實你需要整合不同團體的意見來研擬這個政策那我想這次修正的方向呢其實比較多的團體是"},{"start":10418.72,"end":10440.825,"text":"支持所謂的潛移預防機制跟匿名原則不受理這個方向那也有很多團體堅持就說也有團體堅持說要廢除消失會議所以基本上你要說有共識是很難但是就是說如何兼顧大家的意見來納入之後能去檢討出一個就是比較大家可以接受的這個方向"},{"start":10441.525,"end":10461.762,"text":"那這邊我要提醒教育部其實我們應該持續的追蹤就是說關於我們這個辦法修正之後校師會議對教師造成的影響必須有個檢討的機制修正之後跟修正前當然一定會有一些改善但是這個程度到底"},{"start":10462.222,"end":10490.163,"text":"符不符合教师的需求刚才我有听您回复亚林委员说说你们在一个月会有一个进度所以这个部分也是督促你们应该尽快的研议就是说教师被冤枉平反后的相关补偿的方案因为这个不只是他们权益还有他们的名誉这个部分教师都非常的重视那你刚才回复的是说一个月会有进度可以报告"},{"start":10491.776,"end":10508.154,"text":"这一个进度一个月就是说跟委员报告但是当然进度里边我们会希望当然如果有好的结果当然这是大家所期待的但是如果没有就是说至少我们会把那个进度阶段性的进度跟委员做这样一个"},{"start":10508.234,"end":10532.21,"text":"是那現在就是持續的跟各團體溝通是那我們也持續的來修正到底這個修正的辦法有沒有適切的符合現場的需求之後呢我們就是持續的來檢討那你們剛剛講的意思就是說一個月就是會報告到底是進度如何是那持續的來將這個能夠最好有共識然後最好有進度這個部分呢當然校事會議"},{"start":10533.29,"end":10542.017,"text":"這一個宣布以後我們會召開公聽會我們會北中南公聽會然後也有一些指導原則然後我們也收集"},{"start":10542.95,"end":10566.239,"text":"公布以後所造成的一些現場的一些到底有多大的一些正面的影響或者還創造了一些可能負面的我們都會在這一個學期六月以後要持續的收集相關的意見七八這個暑假就會再從整體再做一個分析我們一定會滾動式的一些修正希望往好的方向也能夠讓老師安心好 謝謝校長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":10570.02,"end":10589.387,"text":"好謝謝陳秀寶委員那官員請回座請范宇委員質詢謝謝昭緯有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":10605.648,"end":10634.147,"text":"委員好部長應該是快要午安了剛剛召委對您很好有讓您稍微喝一口水希望部長有機會喝到水我想剛剛我有聽到有國民黨的委員針對國台辦說您是台獨頑固分子這件事好像有所質疑我個人是非常的不能認同我覺得如果隨著國台辦"},{"start":10636.148,"end":10662.325,"text":"然后回过头来好像质疑我们的部长那不就达到国台办的目的吗我自己是认为就是部长的回应非常好因为部长有提到说对于坏邻居冠上的名称以笑置之而且回应说我是优雅的台湾人然后您谨守教育基本法的立场我想这当然是就是说我们最好的回应"},{"start":10663.125,"end":10688.623,"text":"因為如果隨著國台辦起舞那他的目的就達到了嘛所以當時記者問我的時候我也是說依照這個國台辦的標準全台灣的人都會是台獨頑固分子了因為他有任意的標準所以不應該隨他起舞所以對剛才有國民黨委員拿這個來問您的話我是非常的不能認同我在這邊也表達不同的立場"},{"start":10690.003,"end":10715.316,"text":"今天針對我們的主題之一的解聘辦法的專報想跟部長討論我想部長也有聽到剛剛很多的委員還有各界的意見我自己經歷了看這教育部整個的制度的修正真的覺得各方的意見其實常常是對立衝突的"},{"start":10715.876,"end":10744.091,"text":"我上面是就檢舉審議受理案件分流調查終局處理救濟陳情修法後各方的意見做一個整理所以這裡面有非常對立的意見包含就是還是有教師團體覺得還是沒辦法解決濫訴的問題然後違罪就是揭查那但是也有另外一方持續擔心吃案然後具名造成寒蟬效應"},{"start":10745.351,"end":10770.091,"text":"然後關於審議受理的部分非常多人覺得疊藏教屋好像雙方都認為校長變成樹木了然後有身份大於專業不具名投票 護衛不透明然後缺乏彼此的說理說服然後不受理的時候被害人的救濟很難那還有提到說各校分散其實整個受理成本很高"},{"start":10770.811,"end":10794.529,"text":"那針對案件分流的部分有各種意見包含說還是擔心小案大辦然後重案降級關於調查的部分我想部長有聽到教師團體認為說教育變司法那會還是擔心成為校長排除一級的工具那當然我們教師團體還是認為整個調查會不會專業不足然後"},{"start":10799.893,"end":10821.05,"text":"还是不管是儿童或学生权益或者是学生还是家长还是担心事事相互关于中局处理的部分其实很多人特别是教师团体会说就算没有成立也已经造成伤害那还是有学权家长或者是儿权团体觉得仍然有事事相互跟轻重的问题"},{"start":10821.71,"end":10841.795,"text":"關於救濟陳情這個部分我個人覺得教育部要積極處理就是教師程序傷害之後沒有補償那後來是冤案的救濟不管是名譽的修復實質的補償這部分已經有一些委員有提案了那我也會提我覺得這個部分也要積極的處理"},{"start":10842.955,"end":10860.021,"text":"那當然救濟成型還是有比較是學生家長團體認為被害人的救濟只能在教育體系內還是不夠的那下面是我整理的這個現況就是你們這個新修法之後有一個結構上的困境啦"},{"start":10860.721,"end":10886.171,"text":"第一個就檢舉的部分等於就是我們又要學校過濾案件又要學校保護學生它本身就是在結構上是對立的就審議受理的時候以不同身份的立場不同彼此根本就很難有共識所以最後就會變成無法彼此說服然後就要變成不具名投票了因為那個客觀上你還是要有一個答案出來嘛"},{"start":10887.051,"end":10911.245,"text":"那案件分流的話其實還是兩種情形都可能發生調查跟終局處理其實事實認定教育專業人事後果等面向說實在的很可能同時都在這裡面在影響結果那救濟的方面救濟結構的不對稱其實還是存在的因為這裡面誰的救濟管道其實是不一樣的"},{"start":10911.485,"end":10939.378,"text":"那當然現階段就是說如果教師被冤枉之後如何補償因為我們在性別工作平等法其實都有相關的設計這個教育部我覺得可能可以積極主動先處理喔那所以今天是想跟您對話我知道教育部這題很努力也很頭大我想問的是說這次修法的重點的關鍵的問題就在於說我們期待學校既要過濾案件"},{"start":10940.859,"end":10957.049,"text":"又要保護學生我現在就是說跟著走過這個過程中聽了各種聲音我其實又覺得是Mission Impossible好像是不可能的解放想問部長有沒有其他可能的解放"},{"start":10957.99,"end":10972.186,"text":"待会儿部长再答因为我时间有限我想先提提看当然我们台湾从威权走向民主其实家长老师包含学生各种团体有些观念的确是不完全一样"},{"start":10973.508,"end":10997.811,"text":"可是我们看一下其他民主国家比如说英国他们当然同样有霸凌的问题有相关的问题他们处理的层级是中央层级处理严重的案件有所谓的Teaching Regulation Agency TRC这是处理中央层级来处理严重的案件第三方监管助力而且他们也建立了明确的"},{"start":10998.371,"end":11014.002,"text":"教師專業倫理明確告訴大家怎麼樣是適當的管教方式怎麼樣是不適當的所以我們看到教師團體覺得現在好像都不能管教了動輒得救所以這是英國的處理方式"},{"start":11014.502,"end":11033.02,"text":"他除了有這個TRA嚴重的案件中央層級處理第三方監管介入之外還有明確定出教師專業倫理說什麼是對的管教方式什麼是越線的那北歐也有外部的督查波蘭則是兒童監管使"},{"start":11034.441,"end":11058.427,"text":"獨立在行政體系的國家及機構加拿大也有第三方的角色處理程序公正利益衝突等這些國家我相信他們也可能曾經走過我們現在的路我在去年11月的時候因為出國幫忙做國會外交所以當時提了一個書面總質詢"},{"start":11060.467,"end":11077.86,"text":"就是要求教育部做跨國研究那謝謝教育部有積極回應我去年12月11號教育部給我的回覆說國教院從去年12月到今年8月正在進行五個國家的研究包含英國"},{"start":11078.621,"end":11105.123,"text":"澳洲、日本、韓國、新加坡希望能夠就這個部分包含受理的分流、防度、濫訴、程序、權力結構等等消失會議這個部分那裡面至少看到英國就是我剛所講的就是嚴重的案件就是中央的那個就是TRA那我先想請問部長就是說您知不知道目前這個研究的進度如何"},{"start":11108.519,"end":11127.787,"text":"先來完成委辦那委辦之後會有一些計畫跟實際上的幾個程序那我們想說在下班前把這個文件整理給委員看還有沒有不足的地方再給我們知道好 所以就是正在進行中還並沒有因為12月開始進行現在才1月嘛"},{"start":11128.467,"end":11153.027,"text":"那我想至少我看到這個研究的範圍我覺得是相當好啦因為對我們來講就是說有沒有可能跳脫目前的制度就是說因為現在的主張也有教育團也覺得全部都廢除可是我們也知道全部都廢除那相關的學生家長就是說這個兒童的權益怎麼保障的問題所以我想"},{"start":11154.007,"end":11174.2,"text":"這次的修法我想說的不是終點應該是教育部要能夠持續研商跟蒐集意見把第三方獨立機制列為一個可能的討論因為我覺得如何能夠讓保護兒童學生跟教師權益不是對立的"},{"start":11175.181,"end":11199.581,"text":"這個部分然後回歸教育專業不要讓教師覺得就是學校變成教學領域變成司法偵查場域校士會淪為獵巫機制然後能夠不要撕裂親師信任維繫親師信任我相信是教育部最後的目標也是你們改革的初衷不知道是不是能夠就是說"},{"start":11200.802,"end":11222.086,"text":"等研究出來之後部長這邊好好的了解一下好不好謝謝委員謝謝委員的指導確實我們在全國的一個座談裡面也有人提第三獨立機制甚至有的這個地方也有一些教師的聲音這一個民間團體希望能夠由地方政府"},{"start":11222.566,"end":11248.183,"text":"来成立这样的一个机制但是看起来还有许多的一些不同意见所以是不是让我们这个新的1月12号公布的目前的办法我们走一段时间然后同时刚才委员所提的国际的经验然后我们也实际来收集这些然后再做一个阶段性的滚动修正我想我们的目标"},{"start":11248.823,"end":11271.759,"text":"跟教師團體跟家長團體跟社會的關心台灣教育的推動的團體都是一致的我們只有確保台灣的教育品質是好的我們老師能夠用專業專心來指導我們學生我們家長是放心把小孩交給學校的我想那一個是我們希望恢復到所有當時在人才便宜的一個初衷好"},{"start":11272.9,"end":11288.616,"text":"当然我想还有一些结构性的问题包含特教足够的后援师生笔这个部分教师团体觉得这个可能是一个结构上需要解决的我想这件大家都很关心的教师续聘等等的这个办法"},{"start":11289.076,"end":11317.832,"text":"那如何就像部长说的持续观察然后持续检讨那思考制度新的可能性那最后能够建立维系亲师信任然后教学真的能够就是专注教学的场域我想非常的重要好不好那部长辛苦了那我们期待这个报告如果出来之后可以先给本席一份好吗好谢谢谢谢好谢谢范瑜委员"},{"start":11319.008,"end":11334.42,"text":"那欢迎请回座现在请吴佩逸委员质询"},{"start":11349.037,"end":11350.926,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請教育部鄭部長好 請鄭部長"},{"start":11359.093,"end":11382.389,"text":"委員好部長好今天是就高中以下學校公餐飲食教育有執行的情況困難以及有沒有挑戰然後我們怎麼樣來因應尤其是中央跟地方我們在裁員補助方面的問題有一個專案報告那其實就針對這一個修法跟在執行層面可能遇到的挑戰之前好幾次的在就在這個委員會的會議當中其實已經有多"},{"start":11383.209,"end":11401.179,"text":"多所討論所以我主要還是想要請教因為之前我們知道這個教育部針對像財政還有我們政策的延續性你這個無產品質怎麼樣維持然後我們的食品衛生這個管理才是一個專業等等其實確實會遇到一些挑戰你們有做出一些說明"},{"start":11401.579,"end":11412.961,"text":"在前面幾次會議裡面我覺得好像還有更多具體的數字跟今天的這個報告比起來所以我是不是可以請部長能夠口頭比較具體的來說我們現在遇到主要的挑戰是什麼"},{"start":11414.846,"end":11434.583,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實因為過去的三張EQ是由中央來補助那這個錢下放了對偏鄉的一些經濟弱勢的學生也由中央來補助對偏鄉離島的這些的中央這個所謂的各校的這個廚房或者中央廚房這些都是由教育部"},{"start":11435.483,"end":11452.693,"text":"每一年有這個74億的這樣的一個挹注那這些錢全部到地方了那我們當然希望說地方勇於承擔也把協同的營養午餐當作他們在施政的一個重點我覺得這是應該給予肯定但是我們"},{"start":11453.493,"end":11482.746,"text":"在意的是你怎麼樣讓學童吃得健康吃得衛生吃得安全這個東西就是我們在未來中央跟地方要合作把這個監督的機制把這個專業的輔導的一個機制要還有信息的揭露然後獎勵優秀的地方政府在怎麼樣讓這一個許多的經驗能夠擴散我想這都是教育部在未來要來建立機制的也跟地方來一起來努力的"},{"start":11483.61,"end":11498.326,"text":"是剛剛提到說我們過去就有補助給地方那總共74億但是如果說因應修法的話有些項目他也會有新增的經費例如說這個營養師然後例如說我們要有專職的午餐秘書等等的"},{"start":11498.906,"end":11517.091,"text":"那最近因為台北市還有一些縣市陸續都提出說營養午餐來免費這樣的政策那家長呢很多是給予肯定也有一些家長是擔心說那這樣子品質的部分要如何來兼顧或說品質如何維持穩定這個部分的執行的做法教育部有沒有給一些相關的意見"},{"start":11518.707,"end":11543.084,"text":"我想包含譬如說這個營養師我們事實上有一些包括這個儲餐的這些人力我們也都用另外的一個重要也補助跟地方來合作來補助一些人事的一些相關的經費那當然在未來就是說我們會期待他要勇於承擔地方要勇於承擔確保這一個品質我想其他是不是"},{"start":11543.784,"end":11571.17,"text":"是因為剛剛署長有提到說其實跟團體啊專業團體還有地方政府都已經有在討論了對不對那如果以台北市的部分因為你們之前出估學校的營養師如果因應修法的話他全國總體會增加的經費大約在兩億七千多萬那麼營養午餐專職的話會新增的基費大概在五億五千多萬那如果以台北市而言的話他營養師跟專職秘書大概會新增多少錢呢有沒有一個出估"},{"start":11572.19,"end":11586.678,"text":"這個要詳細看線型配置跟目標差距一般而言一筆預算的話新北或台北大概有一定的規格以我們總數而言台北市大概會佔十分之一到十二分之一那有沒有請地方政府開始再盤點了呢"},{"start":11587.911,"end":11604.412,"text":"目前我們諮詢的幾個縣市有開始盤點但它有一點需要在專法上的確立可是在上次有答應專法可能還在研修的過程有些事不能等因此我們跟營養師全聯會就有一些了解包含"},{"start":11605.441,"end":11621.708,"text":"工作職責包含分工有一個RACI的專表大家都進行研商包含人力的配置大家都能夠有一個拉一個期程短期內努力什麼再過兩年三年五年八年要努力什麼大家都有一個共識而且定期會有一個工作小組"},{"start":11622.788,"end":11638.315,"text":"是 那這個部分因為專法至少在我們委員會這個是不分黨派的委員都支持也有提案版本那甚至也有人是我個人是希望更審慎一點在執行層面跟地方政府有更多的討論再來進行修法"},{"start":11638.655,"end":11649.125,"text":"但有些委員是希望說要加快覺得說速度是第一優先所以我希望你們跟地方政府在討論的時候尤其是這個營養師跟午餐秘書專職的話這個基本上是共識性很高那可預測的一定是新增預算經費會變多那像有些縣市已經在開始本來沒有午餐免費現在變成都免費他也會增加更多地方政府的支出"},{"start":11662.318,"end":11671.725,"text":"但請你們務必跟地方政府在討論的時候但例如我是台北市我就會很關切了那台北市政府有沒有就未來修法過後我們的這個營養師跟午餐秘書的這個經費有沒有來做預先準備因為這個是我們剛剛部長所講的你要維持品質的穩定是很重要的一個人力的因素關鍵因素所以就要拜託我們教育部跟地方政府在談的時候"},{"start":11689.319,"end":11703.653,"text":"除了午餐免費之外這個經費跟人力一定要把它預先規劃進來那再來是我自己也很關切的就是我們交易部1月14號推出了一個台灣台語輸入法的APP"},{"start":11704.953,"end":11727.165,"text":"這個應該是我們終身教育司推廣到今天大概不到一週下載次數有剛剛破了一千次我看到很多人反映說這個功能的服務實在是真的有所需要因為它的對象大概是讓說就是他口說自然語是台語但是不會使用輸入法的人他也可以就未來可以用台語"},{"start":11728.245,"end":11751.123,"text":"這個文字來進行溝通對 進行溝通跟互動所以很多人說確實有這個需求我看那個APP上面的評論有人說這真的會更多這樣子但是呢我們也很關切是也希望他推廣成效可以再普及率可以再更高一點所以我想問說我們當初這個APP設定的目標族群大概是有沒有特定例如說校園內還是說校園外的"},{"start":11754.535,"end":11776.962,"text":"跟委員報告這個事實上都包括因為我們知道我們目前在國家語言法裡面有客語這個我們有客委會原住民語也有原住民委員會那我確實進來教育部以後就是有許多的這些他的母語是台語的他們總覺得我們在推動了一個力道是不夠的所以我們再重啟一個方向"},{"start":11778.155,"end":11792.613,"text":"來普及就是說我們也在去年裡邊開始這一個跟22個地方縣市政府從幼兒園開始就有所謂的母語的一個教學這是一個另外我們也鼓勵地方縣市教育局處"},{"start":11793.334,"end":11810.661,"text":"能夠再獲得縣市首長的支持我們把退場的學校能夠變成一個主題的語言或者相圖本土語言或者本土文化的一些主題館的一個教學資源的一個善用跟建置"},{"start":11811.161,"end":11828.135,"text":"那另外一個就在中生學習裡面我們這個中生糧食廠他們也非常用心結合科技裡面就開發了這一個用台灣台語直接口說然後就可以輸進去以後它不僅是阿公阿嬤能夠很快的在這一個"},{"start":11829.036,"end":11845.036,"text":"这个APP里边就能够把话做出来能够把那个字呈现也开始去深入在各级教育里边在这个所谓的台语的一个教学我们希望当然那就只有语言的一个附赠跟文化的一个保留能够以时俱进"},{"start":11845.216,"end":11862.962,"text":"我個人是很肯定我們中宣教育師做這個台灣台語的推廣因為台灣台語也是我們的國語也是我們國家語言之一那麼過去可能因為威權時代的關係曾經有禁止母語這樣的政策那麼所以在時代上面的落差也許是啦"},{"start":11863.542,"end":11892.874,"text":"像近期就這個觀念上面立法院就發生一件事情在這個1月15號我們立法院同仁王逸川委員他在立法院的公聽會上面他使用台灣台語發言但是卻遭到與會的張亞中教授去試著說他說你說國語好不好言下之意他認為台灣台語不屬於國語才這樣說嘛對不對雖然張亞中是我過去台大政治系的教授但是我還是必須說當下他這個發言實在是很不容易說"},{"start":11893.254,"end":11912.767,"text":"可以這麼說啦因為如果一個教授還有這種觀念已經台灣台語是國語的一部分這是有法源依據的我們甚至行政院有國家語言的推廣的方案這樣的計畫那一個大學教授都不了解的話真的說一句那我們未來要怎麼去教孩子所以呢我認為教育部有這個責任"},{"start":11914.068,"end":11942.133,"text":"那這一群人也許過往因為時代背景的成因也不是很能怪他們這觀念上面可能一時還轉換不過來但我們就要去加強來推廣那事實上在立法院我們使用母語來質詢也是各黨派都有潛力的就像國民黨的徐志榮 鄭天才委員民進黨的湯惠貞 吳立華委員都曾經使用客語或是原住民族語來進行質詢我們中央部會 客委會跟園民會也曾使用母語來做"},{"start":11943.253,"end":11963.978,"text":"詢答所以這個其實是很正常的事情我覺得我們應該要多加去推廣那最後就想要請教因為我們國家語言發展整體方案這個規劃我看目前是到2026年民國115年度那麼明年我們有沒有相關因為教育部算主責是文化部但是教育部有部分負責的方案我們明年有沒有繼續延續性的計畫"},{"start":11967.875,"end":11975.113,"text":"包委員我們這部分會配合文化部有我們有那個羽化方案會持續來推經費儘可能也會盡量來提高 謝謝"},{"start":11976.246,"end":12001.407,"text":"好 這個就要請你們繼續來努力了那最後一點時間就是有關大學法的修法還是要請部長來多幫忙因為部長過去是大學校長出身所以我想您是最好的校長跟學生之間溝通的橋樑目前我看針對大學法學生有一個核心的訴求就是希望增加對學校事務的參與主要有兩點第一個就是校務會議學生代表的比例希望要增加第二點就是校長臨選委員會"},{"start":12002.788,"end":12024.129,"text":"希望要有學生的代表事實上現在公立大學當中也有29個學校校長聯學委員會是有學生代表的那因為這個禮拜即將就要是大學校長的會議我看部長其實是每年都有受邀參與的部長能不能夠幫學生也跟我們大學的校長多來溝通這兩方面的改善"},{"start":12024.789,"end":12047.022,"text":"確實我們在這一個感謝委員的關心大學法怎麼樣去讓學生有更多的一些參與確實我們在這一個星期四這個本週的星期四星期五我們也納入了這個大學法修正的一些相關的內容也希望我們各大學從實務面裡面去充分的討論我們在未來的一個包含"},{"start":12048.062,"end":12069.154,"text":"臺灣在人才培育裡面因應這個科技的一個快速的發展我們有怎麼樣一個更大的一個未來的一些想像在學術的發展 人才的培育包括對產業上的一些這個資源的引入我想我們都會有一個更前面的一些討論那當然學生的一個參與他是一個厲害關係人"},{"start":12070.094,"end":12093.744,"text":"本來就是大學許多的一些場域裡邊我們是鼓勵利害關係人能夠有機會表達他們的意見是 因為針對大學法的修法現在看起來所謂的利害關係人例如大學的校方跟學生有些訴求是還需要尋求共識的但是我認為這個溝通的過程也是校園民主很重要的一部分也希望教育部可以擔任請這個橋樑讓這個溝通可以實質的產生好 要拜託部長好 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":12100.799,"end":12125.858,"text":"好謝謝吳佩奕委員那官員請回座請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":12134.761,"end":12155.411,"text":"委員好部長好我們從新聞上都陸陸續續看到幾乎所有的縣市都宣布他們的營養午餐要用全面的免費當然我不是那麼喜歡免費這兩個字我比較喜歡說是全面補助而不是用免費"},{"start":12156.431,"end":12175.996,"text":"但是呢從口號到制度的成功我想不在於宣布補助或免費而是在於完善的配套措施那實際上也有很多的聲音表達說這樣的做法會不會排擠到其他的教育資源而且我們也都知道"},{"start":12177.036,"end":12191.307,"text":"這麼做是一種高度不可逆的制度一旦啟動宣布幾乎就是不可能回頭所以在這裡我們就有幾個擔心那也希望教育部這個地方能夠去做一個討論就是關於動態的調價機制"},{"start":12196.391,"end":12224.151,"text":"因为我们比较担心的是未来如果他一直没有调价机制那么是不是孩子的营养午餐的品质会大打折扣我们看到有很多的法律都会写说每三年随物价指数来调整很多的法令都会提到这样子写所以我们也希望说这样的一个机制是很重要的那再例如呢"},{"start":12224.972,"end":12241.057,"text":"有沒有加價選購這樣的一個彈性事實上很多的家長他也會期待說他們可以自費加價然後在免費的基礎上有更好的一個營養午餐的品質既能減輕家長的負擔"},{"start":12242.617,"end":12262.527,"text":"又能夠滿足現代學童的營養需求我在這邊只是這樣子做這樣的例子所以想要請教部長的就是說如何為未來去做這樣的一個因應關於預算的永續性品質的一致性制度的創新支援因為實際上有一個縣市從99學年度"},{"start":12265.228,"end":12291.426,"text":"他早就已經開始實施全面的免費營養午餐但是我們也聽到很多關於品質的一個檢討所以我們也會擔心未來會產生這樣的情形不曉得部長您的看法如何我們謝謝委員關心也謝謝委員確實也看到我們在這個營養午餐中華事實上現在在討論我們委員主席也非常關心"},{"start":12292.574,"end":12313.551,"text":"但是在這個之前已經有十個縣市已經是免費然後最近全國只剩下兩個但是委員剛才所提的到底要不要各地方縣市他一定會考慮他的物價包括這個學生的營養午餐怎麼樣去確保他的品質所以很多家長也會擔心"},{"start":12316.303,"end":12343.435,"text":"最重要的一個規準那當然有一些地方我知道也有一些部分的學校他會自己家長會裡面會希望他們加價能夠讓小孩子吃得更好我想我們沒有限制的理由但是怎麼樣在一定的一個比例不然你會造成還是會有一些不同的色心地位裡面家庭的一個問題因為未來地方政府如果它基於預算它一直沒有所謂的一個動態調價機制"},{"start":12345.896,"end":12364.782,"text":"那這個也是很多地方擔心的所以也很希望能夠在辦法或者是未來的專法有沒有可能由中央來訂定納入評鑑之類的機制我們當然希望所有的政策的宣示是永續的而不要說因為今年大家很高興明年因為物價上漲"},{"start":12366.182,"end":12391.994,"text":"這樣一個價格就這就是很多家長擔心的然後或者就可能品質降低我想這不是我們一個地方政策地方自治裡邊在宣布政策裡邊所考量的我們當然會希望這個品質是能夠被確保的這也是教育部在未來裡邊我們會透過就是配套措施好不好我們未來跟地方來合作而且會提醒也會透過一定的監督來把關好 謝謝部長"},{"start":12395.015,"end":12422.796,"text":"那另外就是1月12號已經有預告一個解聘辦法的一個新的預告公告內容那關於這個部分部長您也很清楚這兩年其實各地的教師會也好很多的教師團體他們其實也不斷地訴求不斷地開記者會那我們在立法院也做過很多次的質詢甚至是也參與很多場次的記者會"},{"start":12423.837,"end":12442.672,"text":"那現在其實教育部草案的修正內容我先這樣子說其實是採納了很多地方的聲音跟意見那即便是後來還有不同的聲音出來但是我覺得其實在這之前大家反映出來的聲音"},{"start":12443.613,"end":12458.537,"text":"其實教育部也都有接納聽進去了可是我在這裡要提到的就是關於教師權益跟兒少權的衝突他其實是在冰山的底下還是在那個地方較勁較力包括校內調查結構的衝突等等"},{"start":12462.458,"end":12485.095,"text":"那也就是說在這個地方如果我們沒有去注意的話未來依舊還是會有很多很多的聲音出來舉個例子來講像現在我們公告出來我們並沒有看到還是依照現行辦法的規定關於這些什麼解聘終局停聘不續聘的時候被害人才有權取得調查報告"},{"start":12485.995,"end":12506.615,"text":"並且提出救濟陳情所以在這個地方就形成了一個程序的黑洞為什麼因為他在第48條的地方他的原因就在於我們可以看到他在第一項他說本法第16條第一項第一款的事件僅需對行為人提供調查報告"},{"start":12507.856,"end":12523.307,"text":"但是我們應該是要針對行為人與被害人或檢舉人這個地方就是不夠橫貧那麼我們再去看同樣的立法格式我們卻看到在第48條的第三項"},{"start":12525.569,"end":12549.397,"text":"有去做修法了可是在第43條的地方我們可以看到在第48條被害人提出陳情前得向學校申請提供調查報告然後以主張或維護其法律上利益有必要違憲可是第43條他們原本是一樣的喔修法之後卻只修了行為人"},{"start":12550.377,"end":12576.742,"text":"卻沒有被害人所以這個部分反而是讓學校主動提供行為人的調查報告卻不用提供給被害人所以這個是不利於兒少犬的部分又或者是說我們看到像是輕微的處分像是依照考核辦法申戒之類的他卻沒有一個申請的一個救濟管道那麼跟他原來的需求是相違背的"},{"start":12577.202,"end":12605.621,"text":"所以在這個地方就是凸顯了說我們的行為人跟被害人或檢舉人之間的一個權利不對等所以在這個地方就是一 他沒有辦法取得調查報告二 沒有辦法讓他有法定的一個救濟途徑所以這個部分站在橫平的立場就是想要請教部長是不是學校應該要主動提供調查報告無論是懲處結果如何給當事人 行為人 檢舉人"},{"start":12607.322,"end":12631.249,"text":"部長這個部分您的看法如何謝謝委員這個提醒確實這一個法的一個修訂本來就是因為行為人是可能他變成除非他被冤枉不然他可能是一個加害人那我們要處理的是行為人他後來可能涉及到他的一個解聘等等的這些的嫌疑所以我們才在他"},{"start":12632.778,"end":12655.915,"text":"进入校教评会之前让他看到能够对他的行为有所能够有一些说明这里边所有的处理的过程一定会到地方政府教育局备查所以也就是说对这个指控的人我们事实上他还是可以有一定的程序透过地方政府里边去这个"},{"start":12656.916,"end":12663.261,"text":"這一個監督整個學校的處理的一個運作那當然如果我們也希望說這樣的一個調整"},{"start":12665.731,"end":12686.683,"text":"我们怎么样在儿少权益的保护也不阴枉老师的一些专业的一个教学的一个权利那我们希望也许这滚动式的到今年的六月我们会收集更多的资料来做一个滚动式的修正所以这个意见儿少权益的部分会纳进去考量对不对我要讲我们为整体的一个考量"},{"start":12686.983,"end":12711.992,"text":"但我還是要回歸到我們還是很關心教師的權益所以就計後他的案件如果不成立部長我也聽過您很支持很認同還給他全心跟他的家籍這個部分要修教師法第25條以及教師待遇條例的第19條我都有提出修法版本了不曉得部裡面如何"},{"start":12714.701,"end":12734.347,"text":"跟委員報告確實委員也非常關心我也曾經跟委員這個表達自始至終我的立場就是將心比心所以今天我們不是受害人所以我們沒有辦法感同身受也正因為這樣所以他一定要朝那一個方向來修改所以教育部會主動積極來處理這個部分好 謝謝部長"},{"start":12737.108,"end":12759.819,"text":"好 謝謝部長但是呢 在調查階段還是有一個停聘 靜候調查的一個比例原則啦我們看到解聘辦法第11條第一項這個是很多老師痛苦的地方就是將行為人暫時予以停聘並靜候調查然後要等行政調查完畢後 認定情節重大才有懲戒法庭或主管機關來裁定"},{"start":12761.792,"end":12787.583,"text":"您看一下我的PPD這是我接到的陳情他說他接到公文他們要讓我復職然後馬上停聘三個月要繼續調查我學校說要搞死我這個都不是重點他說他想死啦他跟我想死我花了好長的一段時間一直鼓勵他當然這樣的例子很多"},{"start":12788.783,"end":12811.356,"text":"我們經常接到這方面的陳情但是我從不介入因為我們沒有辦法判斷到底誰為真誰為假這個要交給專業的這一些調查的委員會甚至是法官來處理我們也知道我們從不介入但是我們確實看到很多人很痛苦"},{"start":12812.307,"end":12831.523,"text":"在這個當中他可能沒有辦法去取得很清楚的一個調查委員會的一個認可但是他又覺得他是被冤枉的那個是無中生有的所以我要講的是說我們在教育界都很多年確實很多的老師他是性格的問題他是連續性的"},{"start":12834.065,"end":12859.972,"text":"可是也有一些人我們很清楚知道他可能是初次或者是只有這個單一事件但是他就要面臨這種解聘 停聘 靜候調查甚至最後沒有犯完所以這個是在我們當中的一個比例的原則我不曉得說有沒有可能增列一個初次單一情節輕微的為私行為的處理機制部長您怎麼看"},{"start":12861.773,"end":12887.747,"text":"謝謝委員的指導其實我們大概學校的現場裡邊我們其實信憑法違反信憑法是當然要停止但是如果在校事這個部分我們本來就是希望不要用小案大辦所以我們有一個分流的機制那以現在的一個法條法令的規範就是說校教評會這個通過了他要停止要"},{"start":12889.411,"end":12916.645,"text":"這一個停止的這一個他才會有進入到這一個所謂的權益等於說這一個等於說他校教評會一定要通過部長我這樣說好了我舉例舉清楚一點假設有一位老師有一個主任他好心去幫體育老師帶課在這一節課當中突然就被告說學生去舉發說老師拿東西威脅我要刺我"},{"start":12918.973,"end":12939.298,"text":"那這個老師他過去沒有這樣的一個案例但是呢有理也說不清因為這個就是我們講的就是希望國教署要全面整理建立一個教師專業的倫理指引讓不當管教行為有更明確的界限而不要讓定義散落在各個含釋讓老師無所適從"},{"start":12940.518,"end":12956.9,"text":"那當老師面對這樣子他過去沒有可是他面臨的是什麼呢就是我們很害怕的修法之後的第九條依然是由校長邀集雖然校長沒有表決前但是我們常常講的就是問題的根源為何校內的調查"},{"start":12958.442,"end":12982.399,"text":"他本來就是我們再怎麼改他只是換零件他可能還是一部爛車但是我們很多的調查權如果還留在學校制度就永遠沒有辦法擺脫所謂的人情權利的一個死結然後行政的崩潰 專業的不足求援兼裁判這樣的一個迷思黑箱當中所以"},{"start":12982.799,"end":13003.937,"text":"我覺得這個部分也是我們必須要在這次預告當中還是要去回歸到像我其實從以前就一直喊第三方機制我其實是希望說有所謂的第三方調查但是我們現在的幼教模式已經是這樣幼教模式是交由縣市主管機關來建立一個審查小組"},{"start":13005.379,"end":13022.638,"text":"所以我只是要表达的是说其实很多的根源还是会落入在我们的整个结构性当中没有办法掉脱人情权利派系地方这种调查权是不是有办法把它移出去部长您的看法"},{"start":13023.726,"end":13038.232,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想土法不足以自行是很多的時候我們在把授權這個法令的這個專業的這個角色在教師法已經非常明文的一個規範老師"},{"start":13040.493,"end":13069.371,"text":"所有的权益义务在校教评会里边相关的都明定的很清楚但是为什么108年会定出一个校事会议的一些处理当然它有它的时空变形我也非常不舍我们看到非常多的老师他非常认真的坚守他的岗位但是因为班级经营我们只是希望在这一个儿少权益跟老师的权益怎么样慢慢的大家彼此能够建立一个互信"},{"start":13070.251,"end":13090.404,"text":"能夠讓學校有一個更友善更溫馨的一個支持老師的教科學生的學家長也放心那這個東西以現階段來講我們必須要再有一點時間來逐步的改善建立這個重新這個信任的這個校園文化跟氛圍那我想這一個"},{"start":13092.165,"end":13109.972,"text":"在這個時刻我們在校事會議就可以退場了好就是謝謝部長因為您從教育界出身我相信這一些您都很有感那我們是希望說這一次的預告期雖然我們已經去處理了這種匿名檢舉不受理然後呢"},{"start":13110.552,"end":13137.045,"text":"第一阶段回到考核办法然后再进入到我们所谓的一个校师会议又或者是说我们再去考虑对于这种初次的单一的轻微的是不是回归校内程序处理我想这很多我们其实儿少权的保障跟教师权益的保障都是为了我们国家教育的一个健全因为大家都需要快乐"},{"start":13138.045,"end":13166.295,"text":"所以這個部分就是希望部長你能夠針對檢舉人的權益讓他們也能取得調查報告也有一個申訴的救濟管道那教室的權益包括名譽的回覆最基本的就是回覆全新然後對於這些輕微出赤的還有他停聘的一個工作權那甚至有可能未來我們就是把調查權移出學校交給第三方比照幼教的一個模式"},{"start":13166.795,"end":13192.442,"text":"然後建立一個好的教師專業的倫理指引讓老師不要無所適從我想每一個作為其實都是代表我們對這件事情的用心我相信所有的家長也好 老師也好也都會看重我們這份重視的態度好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝伍麗華委員那官員請回座了"},{"start":13196.361,"end":13219.562,"text":"現在因為已經超過12點了如果有 官員有用餐的需求就自己去拿便當好不好就把握時間那現在請王紅薇委員質詢時間4分鐘等一下是林怡瑾委員之後呢我們來處理臨時提案的議題好 謝謝主席我請一下我們鄭部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":13227.779,"end":13256.546,"text":"部长好我们都知道现在在第一线出现了教师的逃亡潮有很多的教师离开了第一线教师的岗位甚至连公费生都提前去解约这个比例也算是有意义的请问一下部长你认为现在第一线的教师逃亡潮就是现在老师不想当老师你觉得最主要的原因是什么"},{"start":13258.427,"end":13271.022,"text":"我想社會在進步那家長這個對這個教育也有許多的一些想法那當然老師也一樣在因為在這個"},{"start":13274.148,"end":13301.901,"text":"環境氛圍裡面他面臨的挑戰確實也比較多那我想這是一個原因所以部長確實承認就是在第一線教師現在第一個他的第一線工作壓力大那麼他現在擔任老師的環境也不如以往以前都要說尊是重道老師講的一定是對的那現在完全沒有這回事而且整個的教育環境我也講過我自己從第一線的這個基層的"},{"start":13303.482,"end":13320.196,"text":"一元做起我们受到太多的各式各样的投诉来自于老师的投诉来自于家长的投诉那我也有讲过我曾经我听到最扯的是老师一上课就是要拜托学生不要告我"},{"start":13320.896,"end":13350.596,"text":"学生不要告我就是同学不要告我他每一堂课都要去重复这样的事情那所以像应该是去年去年事实上很多的学校甄选就出现了非常大的问题以我们台北市来说其实这个教师严重不足而且他们开这个缺额那也有这个学校什么公开甄选40次都甄不到老师那我觉得这问题必须要解决"},{"start":13351.176,"end":13372.615,"text":"必须要解决因为我们不能不承认一个好的老师我觉得好的老师是教育最非常重要的一个根基好那所以我们今天回到我们有关于这一次相关的解聘办法或者是之前办法的一个修正那这个已经公告实施了那我请问"},{"start":13373.596,"end":13401.645,"text":"那個部長為什麼在這次公告實施之後那你們之前也說做了很多的座談會但是為什麼第一線老師仍然有這麼這麼大的不安你覺得原因在哪裡是溝通不足還是這個辦法還是有缺漏應該再予以修正我想當然圖法不足以置信我比較先說明但是我們這一次的一個修法"},{"start":13402.915,"end":13428.005,"text":"基本上也跟教師團體有非常多的包括基層老師的一些溝通座談他們希望不要小案大辦要分流要能夠這個停止這個減少這個爛數我們都朝那一個方向包含現在他沒有做到的就是對老師被冤枉後來的名譽恢復包括他的權益上的恢復我想這個我們省社樂觀也在"},{"start":13428.385,"end":13447.783,"text":"透过跨部会跨院包含全系部的一些沟通都在往好的方向在走但是能不能很快速的去形成一个法令上的修改我想这我们会继续努力当然我也这么讲所有的法令不可能一次因为民主法治的社会终究你"},{"start":13448.684,"end":13463.141,"text":"修改了我們朝那個方向難免還是有一些期待甚至更高的人他會希望能夠一步到位那我只能講我們目前的修改它確實是來自於不同好 所以這個辦法還會再做修改我們會滾動式的在看這一個"},{"start":13468.807,"end":13492.922,"text":"因為你1月12號就已經公布了嘛但是仍然現在平息 這個爭議沒有平息嘛法令的修改後看看觀察這將近未來的半年那你再啟動修改大概你的期程 我們基本上是會在暑假的時候把這一個真正的這半年未來的半年裡面的實際的一些可能造成了"},{"start":13493.522,"end":13518.347,"text":"所以你在這邊可以承諾在暑假之前會朝著這個更好的一個方式在做修正我們基本上會在暑假的時候把這些data收集然後根據真的一個data做你是暑假之前還是暑假暑假的時候也就是說我們希望那你是下學期開學之前下學期之前好那在這部分因為我們也最近我相信很多委員都也接受很多的投訴是"},{"start":13519.147,"end":13535.45,"text":"跟抗议所以呢是不是就是部长这边可以承诺在下个学期这个开学之前再完成相关的修正可以让他能够往更好的一个方向更有共识的方向"},{"start":13535.911,"end":13562.711,"text":"谢谢委员提醒那是我们的方向也是我们努力的目标我想我们在下一个学期这一个9月开始之前我们希望有一个更好的一些让我们第一线老师让他们能够安心的我们现在刘老师都不容易了能够让他们第一线没有后顾之忧的来从事他的教育工作好不好好 谢谢好 谢谢王红薇委员"},{"start":13564.491,"end":13588.179,"text":"請部長 署長回座現在請林怡錦委員質詢好 謝主席有請優雅的台灣人 鄭英耀部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":13596.718,"end":13617.668,"text":"委員好部長好首先本席還是要抗議喔這個會期是預算會期那在野黨不審預算卻在委員會要求大家繼續原地繞圈圈假裝自己很關心學校營養午餐事實上才化法被修得亂七八糟然後行政院版又遭到拒絕審查"},{"start":13618.869,"end":13642.118,"text":"那為什麼營養午餐法會打結財源不明 事權不清就是一個明擺著一隻在房間裡的大象我們已經講過很多次了這個結沒想到 後續怎麼講 都是假說的啦教會部做過初步的盤整營養午餐專法若一旦訂定了每年需要花國家差不多44億的預算"},{"start":13644.119,"end":13658.431,"text":"換句話說在財化法沒有被惡修的狀況之下營養午餐法涉及那麼龐大的這個經費本來就知識體大本來就需要時間要好好的評估那從上一任到這一屆我想"},{"start":13659.432,"end":13673.748,"text":"我們辦公室都非常持續跟辦公室跟教育部來追蹤布版跟整個條文的進度那在不分黨派的委員的共同努力下其實院版的條文也從無到有"},{"start":13674.429,"end":13696.846,"text":"其實很有機會來進立法院審查現在是半路又殺出了這個才化法修法二修讓一切停擺所以本席還要強調一次營養午餐專法本來就試設龐大的這個國家經費相關立法本來就很不容易但是在野黨卻讓這一切更的更難了不幫忙就算了還扯後腿"},{"start":13697.486,"end":13726.608,"text":"所以在財化法被惡修的情況之下那負責最終財政這個責任的中央政府他根本不敢不敢隨便提出法案嘛好那這個會期剩下兩個禮拜喔那院版的財化法繼續被卡所以要請教部長是說你認為有哪些涉及這個中央地方事權分配的這個教育部相關的工作事務無法獲得這個解決那或進一步的推動讓你最心痛"},{"start":13729.875,"end":13755.89,"text":"就是試射對 試射這些因為才化法被卡因為確實這一個過去我們當然從中央的一個政策裡邊它有一定的一些從專業理想性但是我也跟委員報告因為這個營養午餐專法之前本來就有十個縣市已經免費推動那當然這是屬於地方的一個權限但是這一個我們"},{"start":13757.731,"end":13776.489,"text":"教文會裡面在討論這個營養專法的時候後來又陸續在今年年初又陸續有縣市都宣布了所以現在22個地方縣市確實有20個縣市它是傾向這個政策來支持學童的免費使用"},{"start":13777.17,"end":13793.216,"text":"那當然從教育部的立場我們當然會希望就是說地方勇於承擔從地方知識我來看這是好事但是怎麼確保學童吃得健康 吃得安全然後能夠確保他在"},{"start":13794.576,"end":13823.028,"text":"這個發展的過程能夠受到一個更多的支持包含這一個許多的這個食安的問題都能夠解決我想這是教育部在這一個地方在這個本地地方的前者在推動的時候我們期待中央跟地方怎麼樣共同努力包含能夠確保這個三張EQ我們透過整個監督的平台裡面登錄的平台裡面去確保我們的食材包含需要中央"},{"start":13823.828,"end":13851.634,"text":"更多的一些专业来提供专业的协助在这个营养上的一些机制上的一个协助包含这个跟地方来合作怎么有许多的这些做得好的经验能够怎么扩张我们有一些监督跟揭露的机制教育部也愿意来编一些经会给好的地方政府在营养午餐推动我们也会给予一些支持做这样的步骤说明"},{"start":13852.284,"end":13874.675,"text":"那再來針對教育部就是上週公布這個校事會議相關的這個辦法的修正那本席在去年5月就有曾經召開記者會來關注這個校事會議濫訴的這個議題那這個會期也有分別在記者會質詢的時候都有跟教育部來探討這個相關的精進的方向那回到這次修法的這個重點"},{"start":13875.855,"end":13896.872,"text":"很重要就是說我們要減少檢舉案量並且分流那主要就是因為學校接獲檢舉後那經校長召開會議認定行為人涉及考核辦法的教師懲處的情況者那他就應適用或準用這個考核辦法去規定辦理"},{"start":13897.452,"end":13915.085,"text":"那可是我想要關注的是說我們在QA裡面看見的就是說如果涉及考核辦法的案例由校內人員調查那不用送到校事會議可是必要時得指派校外人員調查"},{"start":13916.549,"end":13942.589,"text":"教師團體就認為說你這個必要時只派校外人員調查就很可能讓例外成為常態不僅會削弱校園的內部專業自治權也沒有辦法減緩學校內部行政事務繁雜的狀況所以想要請教部長是說就15面我們要怎麼避免涉及考核辦法的案例都走到所謂的"},{"start":13943.69,"end":13970.841,"text":"必要時指派校外人員調查那教育部的整體評估這次修改的辦法真的可以有效的減少那個案量嗎我想謝謝委員關心其實當時會有一個必要的時候是因為台灣譬如說以小學2600多所裡邊我們大概有四成多是六班以下你根本這個特別小型的學校裡邊老師"},{"start":13972.725,"end":13991.494,"text":"沒有幾位所以我們才會說有這樣假設有一個學校規模太小而造成一些同仁之間的一些不必要的一些困擾這時候可以有例外就是說他即便進入了這個考核辦法裡面本來是校內人員處理嘛對 原則還是校內的人員"},{"start":13992.714,"end":14018.37,"text":"就是说我们希望恢复到本来我们去寻谈观客老师本来就是一个班级经营一个小事情不要动不动就进入到我们现在的校事会议才会有这个设计分流但是我也希望我们教师团体必须要去理解我们在那么多的一个团体里我们找到了一些解决的一个方式那让我们能够大家放心走一段"},{"start":14019.44,"end":14022.351,"text":"最壞 對不起在我的看法最壞也不過跟"},{"start":14023.707,"end":14050.499,"text":"過去一樣 現在一樣那總是有一個大家都很辛苦在往好的方向在走是不是能夠相信我們對校長 對老師我們會有更多的一些支持也希望他往好的方向來發展這事實上也是家長最大的期望家長就希望他能夠安心的放心的把小孩子教到學校當然 我想教師團體會擔心這個也不是沒有道理"},{"start":14051.119,"end":14067.618,"text":"因為他怕真的例外變常常就說有的學校的校長就真的是沒有肩膀所以他會覺得說雖然已經分流了可是到那裡去他還是希望說就直接還是讓校外的調查人員來調查我都沒事所以"},{"start":14067.998,"end":14095.171,"text":"某個程度啦 這個也不是說叫做團體不擔心所以我覺得未來怎麼走或者是不是有提出一些條件來修正我想這個部長還可以再思考啦那另外我本期要提的是說這次我們還有新增所謂的輔佐人參與制度我們民地行為人被害人接受訪談的時候得依法由輔佐人協同到場來參與以及協助理解這個程序跟表達意見"},{"start":14095.951,"end":14111.576,"text":"那這其實齁 說真的 在現行的制度裡就有它的規範 類似的規範所以教師團體他現在關心的其實是現在學校他現場請來這些外聘的調查人員大多都是法律專業大多是法律專業 那並沒有實務的"},{"start":14113.597,"end":14119.184,"text":"消學的這個經驗那所以在調查過程中他會比較沒有辦法針對教學實務作業來詢問當事人那也沒有實務現場的脈絡所以本席要強調的是教師團體他訴求說調查小組"},{"start":14130.236,"end":14152.504,"text":"納入兩名學校老師或者是家長或者是其他的校內外人員那他這宗旨其實是要協助調查要讓調查報告更為完整度更高而不是單純是要協助當事人調查過程的陪伴或支持所以部長教育部對於這個輔佐人的概念到底是什麼"},{"start":14152.984,"end":14168.384,"text":"就這部分有沒有機會可以調整或者考量教師團體的訴求跟家長學生的立場的時候你到底有碰到什麼樣的難處才會做出就是你現在訂定這個基本上跟原本的制度沒什麼兩樣"},{"start":14170.134,"end":14193.311,"text":"过去它确实有一些学校拼了比较多的法律的专业背景但是我们也透过这一年来的一个资料的搜集我们希望要有一些包含心理学辅导的专家或者儿少等等的一些那所有的过去的校士会议确实存在了一些问题所以我们这一次的一个学会我们希望"},{"start":14194.144,"end":14218.621,"text":"真正了解學校的老師的還是校內的老師代表這一個家長他的某種程度對學校的實際的運作他們會比較熟悉那當然有客觀的人大家回到無罪推論真正的去協助這一個問題當然等於說舉花人他一定有消外調查人員是從這個人力資料庫去勾選的嘛"},{"start":14219.434,"end":14244.631,"text":"我們有兩位是從這個人才庫這個人才庫是地方的教育局提供給學校所以他如果提供的這些人才庫就我理解是五倍五倍的讓你去自己學校去勾選那你五倍人才庫給的有可能全部都是法律專學我想我們往好的來看我們校長現在其實也實際在應做有發現過去的問題"},{"start":14247.213,"end":14266.32,"text":"那學校要學校如果每天昏昏老老這個校長大概也很難繼續做下去所以校長應該本於專業怎麼樣來協助從平常就要增加這個跟老師的一個溝通然後去協助他而不是拿著棍子或者鞭子就我想校長責無旁貸"},{"start":14267.34,"end":14293.775,"text":"這個部分我們就是不是讓這個1月10號公布的我們至少有一些理想性是包含剛才講做陪伴者輔助人也是當時我們跟基層包含教師會的一個這個教師團體的一個提出來的建議所以我們也從善如流把它加進來類似這樣的等等我想是不是我們也會滾動的修正因為"},{"start":14294.315,"end":14313.172,"text":"就讓你現在的現行先走一段是然後你會滾動修正是好 那我讓一點點時間我一併再追問一下教育部有宣布我們就是接任大科老師的重點費有調整20%可是我們接到教學資源老師他們的陳情他們沒有跟著一起調整"},{"start":14313.932,"end":14340.837,"text":"那可是他們原本領的是跟這些代課老師的終點名是一樣的所以我想要表達是說其實他們他們其實說真的我們在國家語言發展法裡面有明定喔說這些老師是以專職方式為主為原則可是現在我們幾乎都是用兼任的啦都是終點記酬的好 那既然他們主要來源是終點記酬那我覺得是不是這個有必要來調整看看"},{"start":14341.97,"end":14361.81,"text":"谢谢委员关心确实我最近从我过去在大学的经验专任跟兼任的终点会一定是一致的然后我上个礼拜我发现这一个本土这个老师本土语言的老师或者这个代理代课我们其实当时的一个这一个"},{"start":14362.711,"end":14392.006,"text":"修正的一個精神就是希望它一體適用那也跟我們報告但是我們在過去的行政程序確實還要走一些程序那這個禮拜我們會走完那一個程序那我想我也希望也特別跟彭署長講說我們應該在未來這一個機制建立以後就一體適用不要在這邊又走一次這邊還要行程序再去給院長核定我想這個部分我想我們是有共識的"},{"start":14392.346,"end":14417.899,"text":"因為我們已經把修正把教學資源老師把它更名了嘛本來叫做教學資源工作人員嘛所以我想這個是對表達他們對教學這個資源人員的尊重所以我期待說這個在終點放上實際上實質在課堂裡面授課嘛所以這個東西不應該因為身份上的差異沒錯 沒錯而有不同好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝林怡錦委員請部長署長回座"},{"start":14427.811,"end":14456.084,"text":"現在是處理臨時提案的時間那今天有張雅玲委員等其他兩位委員提出臨時提案一案那請宣讀臨時提案政府今年推動教師待遇調整核心目的在於支持教師專業減輕教學現場負擔並穩定教育人力然而114年12月公布教師待遇調整方案中多數均得回溯至114年9月1日生效"},{"start":14456.664,"end":14485.584,"text":"唯獨特殊教育教師加級僅至115年2月1日起實施造成同一政策下對特教教師之差別待遇特殊教育教師長期承擔高度情緒勞動專業要求與教學壓力其工作負擔與專業強度不亞於一般教師甚至更為繁重此次調整方案已影響現場士氣亦不利於特殊教育教師之留任與穩定"},{"start":14486.785,"end":14503.86,"text":"進而衝擊特殊教育學生之授教權益終上請教育部針對特殊教育教師加緊為比照其他教師待遇調整回溯至114年9月1日一案建請教育部研議補救及回溯機制提案人張雅琳 陳秀寶 煥雲 宣讀完畢"},{"start":14506.445,"end":14530.332,"text":"好那請問提案委員有無補充或說明的意見好因為我剛剛其實也有特別在因為我其實已經講過很多次了所以我想這個內容應該沒有太大的問題那剛剛是有講說希望是給我們給教育部一個月的時間那我想就是這一邊如果沒有任何的問題的話那我的意見就是如上謝謝好因為張雅琳委員的確剛才也在質詢的時候也問到那教育部這邊有意見嗎"},{"start":14533.138,"end":14551.811,"text":"關心我想我們在一個月因為涉及到地方我們要跟地方來討論那倒是利用這個也澄清一下我們特教老師在當導師他有帶班他導師會還是一樣已經就是提升了導師會是提升了但是特教的這個職務的加急我想我們跟地方再來討論看怎麼樣有一個好的一些共識謝謝"},{"start":14561.806,"end":14582.784,"text":"好 那我也再釐清一下就是說我知道特教老師如果有兼任導師他是可以有這個佳績導師費是有的可是問題是並不是每個特教老師都有有時候他們可能是兩個人留當老師導師所以我想這個部分還是蠻重要的那就是再麻煩教育部多幫忙 謝謝好 這樣雙方沒有異議那就無意間我們就招案通過好 謝謝繼續進行會議"},{"start":14587.728,"end":14593.293,"text":"對一個月沒錯這邊已經寫了一個月了好那就現在請羅志強委員質詢時間4分鐘有請鄭部長請鄭部長"},{"start":14608.291,"end":14630.44,"text":"委員好 部長好請教一下教育部這次修正教師解併辦法跟成績考核辦法是想幫老師來解決問題還是想幫老師製造問題找麻煩呢沒有 從來沒有找麻煩的念頭所以是想幫老師解決問題當然 當然部長 這就我要跟你講的事情"},{"start":14631.363,"end":14640.46,"text":"那如果你是纯粹是想帮老师解决问题你怎么会搞到教师团体们群起抗议呢我相信很多委员都在办公室接到抗议老师的抗议了你知道吧"},{"start":14641.26,"end":14663.345,"text":"我知道那我就不能理解啦那想請問到底是老師們杞人憂天還是教育部溝通不足還是老師們不相信教育部過去你們的公信力不夠是哪個因素你認為是幫老師解決問題結果老師們認為你是在製造問題找他們麻煩呢"},{"start":14665.262,"end":14694.158,"text":"我想台湾的教育我从这个前年的520进来我确实发现我们学校里边多一份的不信任不管从学校对地方对中央或者教师团体家长团体我想我们确实在努力希望能够有一个更多的这样的一个对老师的一个支持我跟部长说起码我觉得教育部真的这件事就要好好检讨了"},{"start":14694.793,"end":14723.709,"text":"因为最怕的政策是什么如果说今天你这个政策本来就是要来修理老师无所谓政策目的跟大家反应是一致的老师觉得你们这样做不公平不对可是你既然都我看你今天的询答你都告诉大家这是为了老师来解决问题了结果你弄到老师们全都不高兴那就证明两件事情教育部事前沟通就没做好这一点我觉得部长你总不会否认否则为什么老师们搞得这么生气这么担忧呢"},{"start":14724.841,"end":14749.149,"text":"沒錯吧溝通要加強吧應該要繼續加強溝通這當然我們悉心接受對啊因為民主法治的社會當然跟教師團體還有一定的部長我是為您好如果真的如你所說這是幫老師們解決問題的話那你怎麼會弄到說老師們都出來抗議第二個就是說那也顯現過去我覺得教育部跟老師之間的互信不夠"},{"start":14750.84,"end":14767.599,"text":"如果真的是你讲的是解决问题的话那今天老师们不相信教育部那教育部自己也要去检讨但实际上老师们担心是不是也不是杞人忧天我举几个例子比方说你现在老师们也是认为你新增一个审议校师会议是否受以"},{"start":14768.64,"end":14784.587,"text":"這個的會議號由校外專家聘集由校長聘集外聘專家校事會議是教師代表跟家長代表四人組成審議小組我想請問只要有人陳情是不是就開始啟動這個會了我們當時為了解決這一個小案大辦"},{"start":14788.331,"end":14809.574,"text":"所以在這個調查小組裡面它事實上有校內的老師代表有家長代表只有一位是屬於校外的公正人物我這樣子把老師們的疑慮講給部長聽他們認為說第一個這叫跌床架屋嘛你本來就有一個校事會上面再架一個房子上去然後呢"},{"start":14810.555,"end":14827.188,"text":"耗損資源你還是不可能透過這方式來解決爛數的問題這老師們的疑慮啦你反正多了一道序多了一道序因為你們搭配了這個不但跟校事會議功能重疊權力也更直接嘛那裡面辦法對老師尋談 觀客 誤談這些報告條款"},{"start":14830.151,"end":14851.409,"text":"你就是在增加老師們再多一道程序上的負擔這是老師們的疑慮你覺得這個疑慮出發點有錯嗎我們怎麼樣讓老師放心我想一直是我們努力的但是要跟我們報告就是因為過去其實只是我講的一個班級經營上的一個疏漏還不"},{"start":14852.51,"end":14875.324,"text":"不应该进入到校事会议但是我们现在因为小案大办全部都到校事会议本来他不处理不然我最后因为时间问题中间其实就有一个沟通的盲点你是希望这个所谓的前置的会议来去减少送援减少那个申诉员对处理员可是事实上有没有办法做到答案是问号嘛"},{"start":14876.224,"end":14894.583,"text":"那很可能如果没有做到搞了半天最后进到这个地方的案子没有减少那案子审出来也没减少进到校室会议这才是老师们今天担忧的问题他没有办法透过一个外观你多了一道会议的程序他认为就能够达到所谓减少这个所谓烂数的问题嘛不是吗"},{"start":14895.504,"end":14914.804,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們建立的這個機制是希望朝更好的那當然還剛開始那另外一個委員剛才所關心的我心存感謝我們來看怎麼樣累積這個食物那第二個就是說因為爛樹這個把不具名的這一個把他先"},{"start":14915.825,"end":14945.186,"text":"等于说不处理的时候我想对第一线上的老师一定程度我相信随着时间他一定会有感好 最后只有一句话不要好心办坏事也不要好心被人家认为你办坏事这是第一个前面好心办坏事是你把事情搞砸那教育部就要弹起车但如果说你今天没有打算把事情搞砸就人家认为会把事情搞砸那就沟通跟互信出了问题拜托教育部要好好检讨这方面的问题"},{"start":14945.646,"end":14950.951,"text":"謝謝委員關心好謝謝羅志強委員質詢那部長署長請回座現在請鄭天才委員質詢時間4分鐘主席各位委員有請部長好請部長"},{"start":14975.956,"end":14985.807,"text":"部長好 辛苦了請問一下部長 援助民族教育程度的提升重不重要當然重要"},{"start":14986.918,"end":15013.442,"text":"对原住民族而言比非原住民族更为重要我想委员也非常清楚我求学的背景跟很多原住民同学到现在还有非常深度的一些联系这表示我对多原族群不同的一个关照我想我从年轻时代我就有这样的一个态度这个质询请你重视"},{"start":15015.25,"end":15040.671,"text":"本席特別提出原住民族教育法第23條的規定特別針對以各校 就是說高級中等以上的學校最主要是針對大專校院以各校園核定招生名額外加5%以上來計算希望能夠明列在這個原住民族教育法裡面來規定這個理由"},{"start":15044.502,"end":15071.802,"text":"首先让部长了解一下事实上在民国五十几年民国五十几年我们考高中考大学就是外加25%以前是省政府教育厅所定的后来改为由教育部76年的时候由教育部来定这个最主要的因为在95年的时候民国95年的时候改为外加2%"},{"start":15074.366,"end":15101.884,"text":"外加2%然后我经过多次的质询后来教育部修正了这个办法2%之外还可以专案调高比例专案调高比例后来我质询当时的教育部长可以专案调高部分的科系5%但是实施这么多年之后"},{"start":15102.935,"end":15113.487,"text":"你看看我们的近五年大专校院学生的出债协力107学年度差距原住民跟非原住民的差距31.9%到了113学年度差距高达36.85%"},{"start":15123.154,"end":15150.931,"text":"所以这样的一个情形之下本席一直希望教育部能够把专案调高5%的科系能够扩大但是非常非常的有限所以本席才会提出本来我本席也提出过是不是修你们的办法全部改为外加5%以上但是到现在为止都没有修所以本席不得不提出"},{"start":15151.972,"end":15164.407,"text":"從原住民主教育法來徹底的來去解決請問部長你認為要採行哪一種方式你要修你的辦法還是支持本席修原住民主教育法"},{"start":15166.205,"end":15182.32,"text":"謝謝委員對研究民學生的受教的許多的一些機會上的一些關心我想跟委員報告委員也非常熟悉我們其實在大學這個大學校園的這個部分我們目前的一個外加2%事實上"},{"start":15185.181,"end":15199.441,"text":"就我的理解我们教育的现场大学大概都没有招满也就是说我们有一定的这些年的一个教育的一个普及援助民主的一个学生他们其实有很多的用学测用推针他们就"},{"start":15200.322,"end":15218.816,"text":"就完全不比我們一般的學生在幾多的表現來得不好甚至有一定比例的是更好所以它並沒有走那一個保障的機制那這個2%裡面確實以我們了解現在並沒有全然招滿"},{"start":15219.617,"end":15234.448,"text":"那當然如果5%我們研內部可以再來一個研議簡單來講現在除了2%以外我們還有一些可以因為專班因為我們也鼓勵各大學社研民中心或是部長"},{"start":15235.885,"end":15253.355,"text":"你這個說明之前也是說明過了你們的次長也說明過了最重要的是我們的原住民出債協力大專學生的出債協力落差一再的增加到36.85%重點在這邊你剛講的包括專班都列入進去了"},{"start":15260.399,"end":15271.632,"text":"都已经算进去了但是这个扩大还在扩大所以这个部分的请部长一定要第一个你要赶快修理的办法这是最快的"},{"start":15272.76,"end":15300.573,"text":"可以嗎我們來研議因為我們來跟延明會在一起來討論也跟委員報告延明會當然支持我任內事實上我們從原住民這個實驗學校裡邊從小學國中我們現在開始在鼓勵有高中的實驗學校進來我想有高中接著他去接大學這個一段時間他一定會有一個更好的一些在大學上的一些表現"},{"start":15301.753,"end":15324.034,"text":"这个出债协力一定要好好仔细看落差高达36.85%而这个部分也会涉及到教育经费你看原住民族的教育经费115学年度比14学年度比去年减少4400多万"},{"start":15326.57,"end":15342.013,"text":"减少4400多万所以这个部分是一个要去解决的问题另外你看看演兵会演兵会他编了推展南岛民族有关教育及传统经济交流"},{"start":15342.881,"end":15363.605,"text":"南岛民族国际交流不应列为原住民族教育经费原住民族教育法里面完全没有提到国际交流所以这个部分教育部在整体审查的时候编列预算的时候就要跟严明辉讲这个不应该编列在这里所以如果再扣掉这个部分了"},{"start":15364.755,"end":15382.194,"text":"我们115年度的教育经费真的是少了少了少了很多谢谢委员提醒我想我们对原住民教育的关心跟委员的态度是一致的那刚才提到那个4000多万"},{"start":15382.694,"end":15404.42,"text":"那個事實上是因為因應財務法把這些的經費就直接撥到這個地方縣市教育局但是不能犧牲原住民族的教育不會 不會犧牲 好不好事實上就減少啦所以這個部分 這個請教育部再把詳細的報告可以 我們會後再把一些相關資料提供給委員就請教育部長給鄭國傑後面事後的這個詞訊"},{"start":15408.701,"end":15434.651,"text":"包括外加5%那個部分好 謝謝三天才委員那官員請回座現在請翁曉琳委員質詢部長請回座 喝一下水好 我們等部長喝口水喘口氣那接下來請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":15442.915,"end":15470.871,"text":"委員好部長好今天你們有一個議題主要就是討論有關於校士會議的相關的修正法案我剛剛基本上我的想法跟羅志強委員的建議是很一致的就是說其實現在我們在學校裡面我們看到很多的組織跌床駕屋我們有教評會有教師申訴會議有考核會又搞一個校士會議但實際上他們的組織功能基本上是差不多大同小異"},{"start":15471.952,"end":15501.412,"text":"可是你在中小学里面又设置这么多的各不同的委员会那么已经让老师们在教学负担之外他要承担行政的工作然后还要再分心再去处理这么多会议的事情所以校师会议到底有没有存在的必要或是他就可以回归到原来的教评会议或是学校里面的教务会议甚至学生有学生申诉会然后教师有教师申诉会回到那个地方去处理会不会更好"},{"start":15503.655,"end":15512.67,"text":"谢谢委员的一个关心其实中小学跟大学看起来有一点还是有教育阶段上的一些差别"},{"start":15514.668,"end":15536.135,"text":"簡單來講我們當時的一個教師法如果我沒記錯是民國83年83年通過以後我們是定義老師他是一個教學專業所以許多包含老師的一個聘用所有的解聘不續任 續聘不續聘全部都回到中小學的一個校教評會裡面但是隨著這個社會的一個變遷我們看到"},{"start":15542.531,"end":15561.343,"text":"這個特定的一些社會的一個發展也發生了校園的一些事件所以108年就另外成立了一個校事會議好的 謝謝謝謝部長其實這個歷史我知道我只是想說你們的當時的想法跟實務的操作面上面其實就出現了嚴重的落差"},{"start":15561.883,"end":15586.374,"text":"就是后来想到的这个多设立在校师会议的组织并不赢得学校或是老师们的欢迎而且徒增非常多的困扰当然这个不是我今天我主要要质询的议题我只是认为说其实教育部真的是要好好的去体谅基层老师们的他们的一些想法要去这个体察这个基层老师的民意了这个你们现在搞了这么多的这个组织"},{"start":15586.954,"end":15610.925,"text":"事实上就是跌床驾屋那现在今天本席主要还是要跟还是要问有关于就是我们在去年通过去年年底通过退休金提款法案里面那现在教育部对于这个在职退休而且已经退休的老师们的审定函你们准备什么时候重新制作而且要停扣老师们的退休金你们现在想法是什么"},{"start":15613.375,"end":15634.477,"text":"对我想回到那个前面的这个PPT里面可以很清楚知道在我们的公立学校教职员退休这些辅助条例37条跟38条里面其实都已经非常清楚的谈到所有的退休金所得替代率就要回到112年所以呢理论上你现在对于已经退休的或是说已经申请退休的这个老师们的审定函你都要重新要公布"},{"start":15637.232,"end":15664.177,"text":"什麼時候要發給新的審定函跟委員報告因為這個法案是12月28號生效的那因為有作業上的時間還有系統上必須要去做一些調整所以我們在1月2號的時候已經通函給各主管機關我們會請他們先按照舊的替代率先去作業12月28號之後退休的人"},{"start":15664.717,"end":15673.295,"text":"那之後我們利用半年的時間將這個系統調整好我們會重新再設定好 那看起來你們現在的做法會跟前期不一樣是不是就是還需要半年的時間"},{"start":15674.867,"end":15699.062,"text":"是 因為涉及到系統重新要進行規劃的問題就這個部分 因為外界其實已經有很多批評的聲音了覺得說我們現在這個教育部 權序部 行政院整個的數位化程度非常的差一個簡單改參數的事情還要弄到半年之久這是很多退休的公教人員無法忍受的事情而且你們講半年 半年是指什麼意思"},{"start":15699.562,"end":15723.212,"text":"有一個明確的確定的時間嗎是指6月31號之前所有的新的審定還都會核發出去嗎這半年我們會將所有的系統重新調整完畢然後逐步的現在大家就是對於賴政府沒有信心嘛你看像是這個員警的退休所的替代率的提高也沒有編預算然後的軍人家計也沒有發那明明我們法律也都通過了這個公教退休金停侃"},{"start":15724.412,"end":15749.617,"text":"然後呢一個簡單的系統作業也要搞到半年而且你半年還沒有一個明確的確定的時間但看起來如果按照這個權序部還有行政院這些的報告似乎是要等到釋憲大法官這個憲法裁判做成之後你們才有可能會依法行政嗎請問這個政部長您的看法我們的法律通過之後是不是教育部就應該要依法行政了"},{"start":15750.1,"end":15770.757,"text":"不過我想這個因為院裡邊確實有在提示線所以我們作為一個團隊這個整體來講我們也是在依法行政那當然你們是依什麼法你們是依卓榮泰的法還是依賴清德的法他說的算嗎我本身要這邊要強調的這個就是一個基本的法律的ABC"},{"start":15771.878,"end":15792.06,"text":"你行政機關就是要依法行政重視行政機關有提起釋憲但是在大法官做出憲法裁判之前你們還是有依法行政執行的義務這是你們的責任今天行政院他這個拒不執行法律教育部也要跟著做嗎"},{"start":15793.046,"end":15807.475,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個法如同剛剛我跟委員報告的12月28號就已經生效了我們並沒有並沒有不依照法律來執行這樣子的好 所以就說就算你們有作業時間但是我們需要行政作業的一個時程"},{"start":15808.729,"end":15833.8,"text":"好那你们要有实现注意的时辰本期希望你们能够加速不要搞半年而且你们的半年时间也是个模糊的不确定的概念到底是指的6月31号还指的8月31你要从哪个时候还开始起算如果说能够今天给我一个明确答复说6月31号之前所有的退休审定函你们都会新制作全部核发送到每个退休老师们的手上那本期当然就"},{"start":15834.58,"end":15857.467,"text":"考量你們的辛勞 也許還可以接受但是你的半年就不確定啊然後依照情緒部的做法好 本席在這邊就提醒你們呼籲你們 要求你們必須要依法行政 必須要依法行政那麼另外呢 還有另外一個議題很快的就問一下因為我們知道其實教育部在之前呢 已經有吳小林委員 這個時間上面就"},{"start":15859.388,"end":15885.123,"text":"不好意思一分钟就好了教育部在去年12月底已经调账了公立中小学的兼任及待课教室终点费调到20%但是本席最近有收到一些就是老师们的陈情认为说那为什么对于这个课后的课后照顾班的老师的加班费却没有随着终点费来调这个部分是不是教育部的疏漏"},{"start":15886.699,"end":15909.581,"text":"还是你们刻意不想调委员这个涉及到课后以及他使用者付费的原则怕会加重家长的负担这个容许由我们跟地方政府再洽谈好不好是因为我想这也是涉及到老师们的权益因为这个从101年到现在已经十几年过去了都没有调那既然就是说现在的所有的终点费都调升了对于课后的这个"},{"start":15911.062,"end":15936.174,"text":"加班費 其實也應該要隨著來調 這樣的話才能夠讓老師們有意願可以去幫忙課後班嘛 課後的輔導班所以本席這邊提出來 希望教育部能夠盡速檢討好謝謝翁曉琳委員 那官員請回座 謝謝現在請林倩琪委員發言林倩琪委員"},{"start":15937.731,"end":15959.687,"text":"林倩琦委員不在請林佩翔委員質詢林佩翔委員林佩翔委員林佩翔委員不在請李坤成委員質詢等一下李坤成委員質詢後我想就休息一下五分鐘好不好謝謝"},{"start":15965.763,"end":15972.247,"text":"謝謝主席我們請優雅的台灣人鄭部長請鄭部長辛苦了委員好部長好我們都是優雅的台灣人不過不好意思我們今天在討論營養午餐的事情到現在已經好像已經一點一點鐘了大家都還沒有用餐比較不好意思所以我簡短趕快問一下請問一下"},{"start":15993.54,"end":16022.185,"text":"這個有一個北女的歐姓的老師受訪的時候她稱學生說不是網軍就是青鳥甚至用腦殘等字眼羞辱學生我不曉得這件事情教育部後續有沒有去了解台北市教育局他們的後續的這個了解程度是怎麼樣這有沒有違反這個教育基本法行政中立的原則有嗎因為這是發生在1月8號的事情到現在有10天的時間了我不曉得後續的教育部了解情況怎麼樣"},{"start":16025.285,"end":16027.231,"text":"有吗还没有了解"},{"start":16029.557,"end":16055.428,"text":"这个跟委员报告我们没有特别了解但是我们也在媒体里面看到台北市教育局也确实提醒老师在校园里面许多的对学生行为上的一些描述可能还是要注意到老师可以骂学生脑残吗我想这当然不宜的因为过去是有学生因为"},{"start":16056.289,"end":16066.367,"text":"因为贝老师这一个不当言语上的一个霸凌这一个就直接到法院去控诉所以脑残算不算是言语上的霸凌"},{"start":16067.383,"end":16094.983,"text":"我想這個是不疑的啦不疑的很肯定啦那我覺得去了解一下台北市交易局他們後續有沒有針對這個事情做了解好不好可以下班前我們會跟委員做報告好謝謝那我們現在還是討論這個營養午餐那我們現在有這個交易部有專法送到行政院去了嘛那後來是因為這個財化法之後因為經費分配的問題所以現在是卡住嘛是不是主要是因為經費的問題"},{"start":16096.618,"end":16121.423,"text":"主要就是因應這個財劃法它確實對許多的教育部直接撥到因為我們3700多已經撥到地方去了其實我覺得這時候是討論營養午餐一個很好的時機你說現在全國只有兩個縣市營養午餐就是由政府來出就是新北市跟嘉義市這兩個還是維持由家長來付"},{"start":16124.804,"end":16145.433,"text":"然後其他的20個縣市都是由這個地方政府來說所以他們也知道說其實營養午餐是屬於這個地方自治的事項所以我覺得這個時候應該是來討論營養午餐一個好時機既然大家地方政府也都有這個共識他們也理解這是屬於地方自治的事情但是呢中央還是有一些基本的規範"},{"start":16146.693,"end":16164.111,"text":"规范在就是让地方政府不会说有钱的县市让他可能有更多的资源他可以让这一个学生有比较好的一个营养午餐或是营养比较丰富的但是财力比较差的这些县市可能就比较没有办法所以我提几个第一个就是说"},{"start":16165.12,"end":16187.87,"text":"之前大家也都有提過如果現在營養師的分配的話我看我們草案是550名學生或是20班增設一名營養師這是我們草案的內容所以說人力要怎麼去補足這部分是屬於地方的事情還是說我們中央就立一個規範然後經費部分就是由地方來做處理"},{"start":16189.571,"end":16210.88,"text":"我想我们确实现在在定一个规划就是朝五百五十有一名那当然这一个就地方他当然属于地方的一个自治的权责所以我们当然也会把它纳入一个在未来地方在办理这一个营养午餐的时候确保这一个学童用的安全用的放心是健康的"},{"start":16211.68,"end":16233.311,"text":"好的一個品質所以這些都是變成我們在未來對地方的推動營養午餐的一個檢核的指標對 我是覺得說是可以做一個規範性因為之前的話就是說比如說按照這個比例的話我們要新增 新聘大概200多位營養師那時候教育部有提到說那會增加大概2.7億的經費"},{"start":16235.092,"end":16253.769,"text":"整个加起来可能会多达二十几亿如果说这个专法定了之后但是呢我是觉得利用这个机会好好的去跟地方政府谈比如说大家如果认为说我看很多委员版本也都是跟我们这个专法一样550名学生或20班然后这个偏远地区再做一个调整"},{"start":16254.289,"end":16282.031,"text":"然後這個經費這個地方怎麼樣去做處理我覺得就是讓地方政府了解說我們中央有這個規範這是第一個第二個就是說這個三張EQ因為現在據我了解六都的話它應該都有編列的這個預算因為本來是由政府中央政府來出那現在是不是我了解是六都都已經有編列預算但是我不知道非六都的到底有沒有把這個三張EQ都把它編進去"},{"start":16282.847,"end":16307.527,"text":"今年度跟委員報告我們會後我們會全面的了解初步的理解是地方是有編的但是是不是22個縣市全我講我們的訊息都是有的但是我們可以來檢視更詳細的檢視他15年的一個預算跟114裡面在這個部分是不是一致目前還沒有還沒有這個資料就對了"},{"start":16308.416,"end":16325.705,"text":"下班前可以提問給我們因為我們是想了解主席不好意思我就最後這個問題把它問好就是說我們是希望就是說營養午餐現在就是如果有家長不用出了政府來出地方政府來出但是不要影響到這個三張EQ這個政策"},{"start":16326.945,"end":16342.455,"text":"我們的立場是跟委員是一致的我有擔心說有些地方政府他的財力比較不夠但是因為大家都有了他也不好意思說沒有會有壓力但是實際上過去這筆預算是由中央來出但是現在要由地方來出會不會因為有一個地方"},{"start":16342.975,"end":16370.334,"text":"因为这个阴阳午餐全面由政府地方政府来补助他们为了守住这个地方政府补助但是我们原来有的这个三张EQ因为我们这个没有强制性我们只是说希望这样子做过去也是由中央政府来补我们担心说这样子会让这些非六都的这些县市的孩子们可能在这个三张EQ这方面的食材就没有了"},{"start":16371.192,"end":16387.294,"text":"跟委員報告委員所擔心我們當然希望這一個地方政府也能夠理解我們331QB或委員所關鍵是38億本來在這個中央的統籌分配管就直接撥到地方了所以我們也提醒地方縣市交易局處"},{"start":16387.935,"end":16414.167,"text":"就有一個有一些屬於教育部原來的一般補助的這些錢變成中央統籌款的時候你也一定要把這一個經費匡列在你們年度的預算也要跟地方縣市首長讓他們充分的了解對 那所以部長你剛才也是說你要提醒或是說這個讓他們知道但是呢這個其實都沒有強制性我們會納入年度的考核跟資訊的揭露我想"},{"start":16414.967,"end":16433.405,"text":"來自於明顯的縣市所長他必須要對縣市的一個家長來負責任嘛是沒錯那所以我說為什麼這個時機點就是來討論253專法因為你如果在專法裡面其實你如果沒有列出來的話那地方政府就會說我想做但是我真的沒有錢啊減額的機制我們也會跟地方來來討論然後"},{"start":16435.507,"end":16456.185,"text":"希望能够建立共识在未来每一年里边我们会把地方在实时在推动好了 再顺便答复好了不难讲完就可以了的一个成效我们也希望能够透过知性结构跟能够甚至编一些这个经会来奖励这些办得好的公司"},{"start":16456.745,"end":16483.395,"text":"縣市那我覺得說既然因為財化法重新修正了我們這一個部裡面的專法我覺得就做必要的調整跟修正我還是希望說有這個部的專法送到行政院那邊之後還沒有送到立法院來之前其實都可以再做調整好不好我無力好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝李昆城委員部長請回座"},{"start":16484.349,"end":16490.831,"text":"我們休息一下休息一下五分鐘就是大家洗洗手一下好"},{"start":16807.008,"end":16824.938,"text":"好 我們繼續開會請陳培宇委員發言 質詢時間4分鐘好 謝謝主席那我們請署長好了啦 署長你可能更熟來 國教署署長 部長你休息署長你應該知道這一題你超熟"},{"start":16826.476,"end":16845.416,"text":"好 來署長已經很多人問過營養午餐了我就直接跟你說我覺得剛剛昆城委員講了也很多不管是三張EQ或是營養師的配套那我要告訴你們的是我認為這個免費政策它就必須搭配配套我再說一次免費的營養午餐政策它就必須搭配配套"},{"start":16845.856,"end":16871.568,"text":"但是配套如果回到地方政府的自治事項很多事情他可能就擺爛不管尤其是如果遇到有人認為自己是財政困難的縣市或是直接想要丟包給中央那我覺得我們就先預先來做好準備我們來看下一張目前在營養午餐的相關辦法裡面我們都說學生的午餐費是由學校納入代收代辦費向學生收取或是主管機關補助我認為因為是代辦費"},{"start":16872.848,"end":16888.075,"text":"所以相關的心態在過去有很多的事情需要討論跟檢討所以我也想要請署長你說說看我們未來如何定義這個代收代辦的事情還是它再也不會出現代收代辦但一旦一個台灣有22種制度的時候我們又該怎麼辦"},{"start":16890.991,"end":16911.483,"text":"好 謝謝維恩你這個問題很細也很重要首先縣市可能會涉及到辦法的修訂是第二點縣市在處理的過程中我們可能會看看它有沒有一個機制是會不會受到預算的限制而影響到食材所以它有沒有一個彈性調節的機制第三點"},{"start":16914.045,"end":16933.467,"text":"可能在未來食品的品質上要連同我們原來已給的74億它是不是有至少有個矩陣它有融入或不能夠把它消掉吃掉了然後我說的吃掉是指它沒邊或是等等像這些我們最近都在瞭解跟查查"},{"start":16934.148,"end":16958.903,"text":"目前發現他們都有編但是我們要查他的數額那一起來合作以上大概三點是比較關鍵的部分我覺得確實是這樣可是因為一旦一個台灣有22種做法的時候確實要拜託國教署這邊要更積極協助地方政府不要到時候變成相關新聞事件的時候可能又會再次出現花蓮的孩子台東的孩子可能放那個餐盤上一看跟台北小孩又不一樣"},{"start":16959.443,"end":16981.911,"text":"当年苏贞昌院长就是为了解决这个问题所以我们引进三张EQ然后地区盖很棒的中央厨房可是我很怕这个事情在未来它可能又变成另外一个喂爆弹谢谢署长我们一起努力谢谢委员好 接下来我们来谈厨余的问题因为厨余的问题过去好像只在教育部这边要做所谓食农教育 习食教育这件事情可是"},{"start":16982.991,"end":17011.038,"text":"為什麼會產生廚餘其實大家都有各自的說法根據我以前在我們自己的孩子學校當營養午餐集合的委員我發現有好幾個問題第一個可能是因為營養基準設計的問題所以我們的餐量其實確實很大當然第二個問題也可能是因為孩子們很挑食或者是煮出來的食物的溫度樣子擺盤孩子都吃不下甚至我們都發現有很多學校會掐頭去尾的減掉孩子的營養午餐用餐時間就是前面上課時間老師耽誤了"},{"start":17012.418,"end":17039.497,"text":"下面后面要用餐结束的时候老师又说提早五分钟要结束所以孩子掐头去尾可能剩下十分钟十五分钟不到甚至有的孩子要用营养午餐的时间拿去补学校的作业我相信只要在场有当过家长小孩吃过学校营养午餐的可能有一百种问题可以解决剩食这个问题但是剩食这个问题我现在想跟署长你讨论我们来看下一张营养午餐的基准有没有机会调整或者是最后除以累加上去的费用"},{"start":17040.037,"end":17069.044,"text":"到底要誰來買單然後未來你們跟環境部跟農業部這邊如何在一年以後據說如果是今年廚餘就要落日了到明年為止我們就不可以再用廚餘去養豬了那學校營養午餐所製造廚餘其實量非常非常的大我相信署長你一定清楚但我認為這個責任不應該是孩子去背因為我們現在看到很多學校為了降低廚餘的數字要讓數字KPI好看他們就跟小孩說你就放在你的碗裡面帶回你家去倒所以學校沒有再產生廚餘了"},{"start":17070.264,"end":17086.497,"text":"我真的不知道該怎麼辦營養午餐有沒有機會調整相關營養基準我覺得都是要一起討論的來 想聽聽看署長您的意見剛剛委員提到三個問題營養基準的部分我們會跟國教署 國健署抱歉 一起來處理 國健署剛剛裡面有包含分量的事情"},{"start":17087.217,"end":17115.118,"text":"對 因為確實很多孩子反應如果按照那個營養午餐基準我再次要說我沒有要挑戰那個基準但是如果按照那個基準那個餐盤擺起來搞不好現場我們很多大人其實是吃不完的好 來 第二個第二個問題是有關學生用餐時間這個目前的情況是大概20到30分鐘我們會跟地方政府持續做很快的檢討在2月底以前跟委員回報這三點是有關廚藥的事情我們會跟環境部一起來處理包含相關的費用還有示範"},{"start":17116.059,"end":17123.221,"text":"以及契約的修訂好 那署長知道我們辦公室會一直關心這個問題我們後續再來討論 謝謝主席 謝謝署長好 謝謝陳培宇委員好 謝謝你很準時 對然後謝謝署長現在請葉元之委員質詢崔教授請召部長 謝謝好 而請鄭部長"},{"start":17153.15,"end":17172.281,"text":"教育部之前是有提高有關於行政人員的工作獎金1000到2000其實要解決行政到逃亡的首要要務還是要做行政減量我是不曉得說教育部有沒有針對行政減量這部分不斷的滾動式檢討"},{"start":17173.427,"end":17190.817,"text":"因為我在跟委員報告我們大概內部有檢討了大概行政檢量交易部前一陣子我們最近的盤點大概有將近7成有69本給本席一份資料好不好我們來看一下好不好因為大家對於行政檢量這個部分還是都覺得不夠"},{"start":17192.157,"end":17218.991,"text":"一堆評鑑一堆各部會寄到教育局的教育部要寄給教育局教育局要寄給學校所以光是辦公文就辦得非常多這個部分給我們一個書面的說明第二件事情是其實我們看到全國各縣市有一些縣市裁員比較好的他們就會針對工作獎金做加碼像台北現在行政工作獎金又加碼1000到3000高雄針對"},{"start":17220.652,"end":17244.986,"text":"行政工作獎金加碼50%那其他縣市如果財政狀況沒有那麼好沒有辦法跟進的就會產生磁吸效應很多老師願意兼行政職的就跑到台北跟高雄去了那我上一次部長沒有來啦是次長來其實我有建議啦我覺得教育部應該去找各縣市政府統一做法啦比如說"},{"start":17246.158,"end":17270.29,"text":"你應該提升到大概行政獎金提升到五千其實上次署長有講大概增加十幾億而已我覺得這個部分應該要做所以是不是請部長看是統一編列還是說再找各縣市不然現在變成大家爭相加碼福利好的就找得到老師福利不好的就找不到這也會造成這個狀況"},{"start":17272.996,"end":17300.875,"text":"跟委員報告教育部確實是定了一個最基本的一個門檻對但是呢我們也看到台北市為什麼最近這個譬如說去年來講他代理代課老師就這個一直找不到是因為我們過去台北市因為他物價比較高各方面都是真的是比較多的一些在生活上的一個費用比較高所以台北當時是代理代課他也給他領"},{"start":17302.296,"end":17329.221,"text":"一年12個月但是我們過去的其他縣市只有09個月所以因為這樣一個落差組長 因為時間有限我們不要講古了我現在是因為上次你沒有來你沒有來我這個建議那個署長都知道再跟您報告好不好上次有提到就是說希望全國的行政獎金都可以提高到5000那我是比較不希望看到就是各縣市的做法就變成說好像沒有加的部分"},{"start":17329.881,"end":17349.455,"text":"就沒有被照顧到我們跟地方縣市來討論部長這個是統一然後再來就是有關於我們今天其實是講營養午餐營養午餐就牽涉到營養師跟伍祕這兩個是我比較關心的比如說營養師現在像團善業者他是自己提供營養師但學校就沒有"},{"start":17350.316,"end":17379.534,"text":"所以学校的营养师这个部分能不能也统一做法在法律还没有修的情况之下先定个办法出来然后第二个是五密五密的做法全国也不一样你看像新北 彰化 嘉义如果你是老师兼五密的话每个人检的授课结束也不一样然后就我了解因为现在各学校他们营养午餐有很多种做法有的是团战业者提供有的是自立厨房有的是中央厨房是几个学校联合起来中央厨房"},{"start":17380.074,"end":17386.155,"text":"那像團散業者的話五密是由團散業者提供就有的學校的老師就不用去監"},{"start":17387.403,"end":17410.001,"text":"所以這個一國多制那是不是教育部也可以訂一個統一的辦法出來就如果是5密的話那你們建議什麼情況之下他可以減時數甚至於我之前有爭取5密如果是老師來兼的話除了減時數之外有沒有可能比照行政給予一定的工作獎金這個部分部長可不可以研究一下"},{"start":17411.263,"end":17438.637,"text":"我想謝謝委員的關心我們當然我們可以來跟地方來這個部分也是大概一個月好不好那五密這個部分我就延伸出其實學校裡面有很多老師兼的行政職他是他並沒有說給予這個一定的比較好的福利跟待遇除了五密我剛剛講了之外比如說導護其實最好就是讓老師不要去兼導護這個以前我跟部長也有提過"},{"start":17439.775,"end":17462.221,"text":"就是讓老師那現在如果說老師一定要兼導護的話他是補修也沒有給予津貼然後另外就是有的老師他是兼社團老師他也是用補修也是沒有給予津貼就是有沒有可能就盤點一下如果老師有額外去兼類似行政工作其實最好是像導護就回歸專業嘛那這可能要"},{"start":17462.921,"end":17474.415,"text":"大刀闊斧的推廣我覺得再不可能又要說時間要拉比較長可是在還沒有達到一定的改革的時候是不是就給予他們比如說一定的工作行政津貼啦這個你也研究一下好不好"},{"start":17475.396,"end":17503.937,"text":"我想这个岛户其实这里边当然有不同的文化里边我们有不同的看法但是跟地方来讨论我想我们也把它一并纳进来一并纳进来 好不好然后再来我们之前教育部有公布说要给国教的老师就是有工作奖金然后导师费也有提高终点费也有提高那其实蛮多幼教幼教界的就在呼吁什么时候轮到幼教"},{"start":17504.935,"end":17525.449,"text":"署長上司的講法好像是說馬上辦法就會訂出來會回溯到去年的9月那要點訂完了待會會後給委員好 那這個部分我想反映一下因為在現在其實幼教缺老師的狀況也是非常嚴重特別是缺教保員那其實在幼稚園裡面教師跟教保員他做的事情"},{"start":17526.508,"end":17550.53,"text":"其實差不多可是第一個他們導師費就不一樣導師費教師就比教保員多然後第二現在教育部一直在推那個身心調適假現在應該是全國各機關其實也不是教育界啦都在推身心調適假但是在幼稚園這一塊教師是有身心調適假可是教保員好像就沒有 對吧"},{"start":17552.845,"end":17569.673,"text":"這個我們都有研議大概跟剛剛講的會後一起給委員有研議是什麼意思有一起要做一些所以教保員之後也會納入申請調適假是不是會一起會是不是會 就是所以第一個就是幼教的福利會提升第二個他們的待遇會"},{"start":17571.295,"end":17596.901,"text":"你可不可以也講一下好不好像剛剛所提到的我們第一個要點對於這一次相關的教保服務費用比照導師費這個我們就已經訂了在上個禮拜發布那另外委員問到身心調適價相關的比照那相關的類型因為它比較細節是不是容我貴後馬上補給我那行政加緊呢也是有"},{"start":17597.481,"end":17606.519,"text":"行政佳績因為它這個涉及到學校的規模它不一定像學校一樣那目前我們對比照的部分是教保費的部分"},{"start":17608.169,"end":17636.421,"text":"教保費的部分所以行政假期目前沒有研究因為行政假期的部分這一個在如果是一般的幼兒園它如果沒有類似這樣的一個情形那一部分的比照它比較看不到我們的研究數據上的連結但是在如果是屬於教保屬於每個班會付出的那個導師那個性質的導師有啦但是因為有的行政是比如說老師兼導師然後還要再兼組長"},{"start":17637.702,"end":17663.408,"text":"那實際這工作是很繁重所以我覺得現在的問題就是在幼兒園裡面很多老師一樣我覺得有的是大環境的影響譬如說現在有些家長跟老師的關係我覺得有時候當然現在因為少子化家長有時候遇到一些狀況可能會去檢舉老師然後讓老師工作壓力變得很大所以"},{"start":17664.452,"end":17685.552,"text":"我知道在幼教圈有一些老師其實他們很喜歡小朋友他們甚至於不想離開這個行業他們也會擔心說如果大家都離開了那小朋友誰來照顧他們捨不得離開可是有時候在工作上面又面臨到一些突而來的壓力也有點委屈其實現在幼教界有一部分士氣是滿低落的"},{"start":17686.753,"end":17700.979,"text":"我覺得有的是大環境的影響可能教育部一時半刻也沒有辦法解決但我們先從比較能夠在短期讓幼教界老師們覺得有被重視有被照顧的這塊切入我是覺得"},{"start":17702.259,"end":17719.306,"text":"比如說既然教育部你們現在都有在研究比如在國教這方面怎麼樣提高老師的待遇然後增加他們的獎金至少我覺得除了錢的問題之外讓他覺得說其實大家是很重視幼教老師讓他們在工作上面"},{"start":17720.106,"end":17741.972,"text":"可以更有热忱所以这个部分我觉得国教署还是要特别注意一下补充10秒委员您刚才所提到整体幼教老师的他所面对的环境以及他爱教育这个我们有一个小组我们会最近在召开第六次会议我把一些会议结果也跟委员呈报然后再来就是"},{"start":17743.221,"end":17752.347,"text":"現在因為現在幼教最關心的就是評鑑現在要針對特生做評鑑嘛 對不對之前是一年一次評鑑再加五年一次基礎評鑑嘛 對不對"},{"start":17754.042,"end":17781.956,"text":"那現在這一次的評鑑委員您可能會提到說大家對那個特教評鑑的一些細節包含可能它太多啦或是它的內容會不會不勝負荷以及它的結果會不會很嚇人這一些跟委員報告我們跟六大團體一起檢討過對每一項指標我們都予以做指標的說明當場都確認了解指標的意義跟我們的說明是否明確如果還需要檢討我們都一樣都從善如流繼續會收集相關意見"},{"start":17783.917,"end":17808.318,"text":"持續檢討因為感覺好像署長您是希望會後補資料那我就再重複一下我需要的資料沒問題我都會記起來第一個就是剛剛所講的全國就是有關於行政家級的這一塊你們做檢討之後你們具體辦法是什麼第二個是針對學校裡面有一些老師兼任的行政工作比如說伍祕 導護 社團老師"},{"start":17810.62,"end":17837.311,"text":"那相對應的應該給予的行政工作獎金有哪一些這個你有在講嗎第三個就是幼教這一塊幼教這一塊就包括比如說幼教教保員跟教師他們的各方面的行政佳績然後以及評鑑你們的檢討這幾項東西會後再補給我需要多少時間一個月有些會比較快的就不用一個月因為你有的已經在手上了既有的資料今天會後就馬上補好 謝謝"},{"start":17842.11,"end":17870.18,"text":"好謝謝葉元之委員那部長署長請回座現在請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請鄭正前委員質詢鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請徐欣盈委員質詢徐欣盈委員"},{"start":17871.61,"end":17890.463,"text":"徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請部長好有請鄭部長"},{"start":17897.799,"end":17923.926,"text":"委員好部長好部長現在這個免費的營養午餐它是屬於地方政府的權責嗎是那我想教育部的重點現在是三張EQ就是食安的把關跟飲食教育那可是我想要請教的是說現在各地方有的推免費有的是部分免費等於說現在一國多制教育部要怎麼樣做協調避免說所有的壓力最後就到學校跟老師上面"},{"start":17924.226,"end":17951.386,"text":"因为有些县市它是基本上全面免费那有一些不是那不是的这些学校变成说第一线要怎么样跟这些学生的家长来去沟通我想这个部分我想请教一下因为我今天的立场非常清楚就是我首先除了这个一国多志的问题之外我也要替第一线的老师发声因为现在的不管是部分免费或是全部免费那营养午餐的话都是限于学生那很多老师他不但"},{"start":17951.826,"end":17966.437,"text":"他要自己 自費就算了還要把行政的時間要去顧這些同學們所以等於是說我們的教師他除了教學工作之外行政的工作 包含營養午餐他需要的配膳的協調 特殊的飲食"},{"start":17967.037,"end":17990.828,"text":"還有退餐 聖餐 會生 集合還有跟家長的溝通等等最後都變成導師跟行政同仁再去吸收這方面的隱形的成本所以我想請教部長有兩個部分第一個是不是可以要求地方在推動免費或者是擴大工餐的時候來去同步處理午餐相關作業的工作量的這種支持的配套或者是在行政上面"},{"start":17991.548,"end":17998.504,"text":"提供一些佳績讓這些負責行政工作的老師同仁們能夠不要在教學以外還要負擔這麼重"},{"start":18003.564,"end":18026.122,"text":"委員剛才所提到了從包含人力甚至作業流程等等那我分兩點來說明第一個我們會把一個午餐公餐的從買到最後到餐桌上這個大概有八個動作我們會把這八個動作不管你是公辦公營公辦民營或是團善"},{"start":18026.863,"end":18042.706,"text":"每一個公餐類型它的八個動作應該怎麼做我們都會予以律定但這個過程我們會找專家跟地方政府作為我們平和的依據也是維繫把關的一個基準"},{"start":18043.467,"end":18065.98,"text":"第二点中间会涉及到有关人力的付出这些付出可能我们会持续跟地方政府不必有专法的时候专法可能还要一点时间但是有些重要的事情我们马上要做这我们跟地方政府部长也要求我们跟地方政府赶快继续洽谈就有一些可以先做的就不等我们用措施来达成品质谢谢"},{"start":18066.46,"end":18084.606,"text":"好那再针对另外一个事情跟今天的主题也是类似但是我还是要提到导师教师的这个权益我们上次我们讨论导师费的一些终点费的调整那我知道教育部他是花很多的力气去争取资源那额度大家还是有所期待"},{"start":18085.626,"end":18106.661,"text":"之前這個次長也說可能會持續的調整滾動 滾動調整但是我現在有另外一件事情我覺得可以立即來去協助到學校的行政人員的那就是改善他們的辦公環境跟設備那以目前我們加一線為例各校的行政這個的環境大概都還是二三十年前的成設這個我是直接從校長那邊聽到"},{"start":18107.822,"end":18133.247,"text":"那有些行政電腦基本上是教學端汰換下來的二手電腦讓他們再繼續來執行這些行政事務所以在這樣的硬頂條件下他們要處理的工作確實越來越多從採購核銷公文 午餐行政我剛才提到的社團活動 校務系統我覺得這些壓力是非常大那我們不可能一方面要行政同仁專業化數位化跟效率化然後一方面叫他們再用老舊的空間二手設備下硬撐"},{"start":18134.187,"end":18162.316,"text":"那另外一點就是現在的這個偏鄉三年兩百萬的經費他主要是運用在改善教學環境跟設備他沒有辦法拿來全面翻新我們行政場域行政辦公場域所以關鍵的是除了我剛剛提到的這些偏鄉之外飛山飛市的學校三年是只有100萬這個在實務上面我不覺得能夠有有效的來去改善他們的這個辦公空間行政空間那"},{"start":18164.246,"end":18190.968,"text":"我想請教部長 這個改善調整你待遇 他要時間甚至是需要更多的法條上面的改善可是改善辦公環境跟設備 這個是可以先做那也是最能夠提升行政效能的或者是同仁工作品質的事項所以我想說如果能夠願意讓擔任行政工作的同仁能夠有一個更至少更舒適的一個辦公環境 更有效率的辦公環境這部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":18192.495,"end":18208.929,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心特別這個偏鄉或者非商非市我們的一個態度也跟委員是一致的我們怎麼樣去讓他們有一個相對好的教學環境工作的一個條件這我們這個中央跟地方因為"},{"start":18210.154,"end":18232.558,"text":"跟委員是一致的我們來看怎麼樣來協助這一個剛才所提的說偏鄉則三年才兩百萬然後商會市的才一百萬我想這我們會針對這個實際的這個縣市的這些狀況來給以從中央跟地方來合作看怎麼樣來協助來提升他們一個教學環境跟工作的一個條件"},{"start":18233.018,"end":18251.534,"text":"教學環境是教研環境當然行政空間還有是另外一個領域我想這個部分我們會跟地方一起來合作來努力特別我們知道嘉義縣它確實是一個產業結構跟這一個偏鄉山上的學校相對是多的而且其實在邏輯上面來講行政空間的改善不管是在飛山"},{"start":18253.156,"end":18276.298,"text":"還是在這個偏鄉或者是在獨衛區我想大家的標準理論上是應該是要一致的因為他們都還是要做行政未來這些200萬或者100萬可以更彈性的一些應用我想就我們來調整就上次我們講到50班以下50班以上那時候我們跟次長在談的時候我們就發覺到說因為有些學校小學校但是因為老師也少"},{"start":18276.678,"end":18297.647,"text":"是他平均所分擔的公務其實是更多的可是因為他的班數比較少反而他得到的這個補貼補給是比較多的這是有點不太公平所以這方面還是希望全部的閉路考量好謝謝委員提醒謝謝我們來努力好謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢那部長署長請回座謝謝"},{"start":18301.141,"end":18329.919,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有林倩琦委員 林佩祥委員 徐欣怡委員提出了書面質詢關於今天的會議做成如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢和相關資料列入記錄並刊載公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或為其答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":18331.53,"end":18336.715,"text":"好 報告委員會 今天議程處理完畢現在三位 謝謝各位行政官員都辛苦了 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}