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國防自主與打造非紅供應鏈依國防法第22條及國防產業發展條例規定"},{"start":2164.21,"end":2186.12,"text":"國防部應推動國防科技軍事裝備及相關產業發展透過建立國防產業分級與輔導機制推動關鍵系統與零組件自製研發及技術轉移逐步厚植國內產業能量為因應新興作戰型態無人載具已逐步納入國軍戰力規劃"},{"start":2188.832,"end":2204.108,"text":"國防部參與推動無人機國家隊結合國內相關產業依任務需求發展多元應用構型並於建案規劃階段及納入後勤資源系統整合與升級空間之考量"},{"start":2205.165,"end":2233.287,"text":"本次強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算將規劃由國內自製各類型無人機20餘萬架及無人艇1000餘艘以逐步推動國防自主政策應應供應鏈安全風險國防部已於113年另頒國軍採購禁用大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收作業指導要求全軍遵循"},{"start":2234.148,"end":2253.036,"text":"並於招標文件明定禁止入資廠商參與或已入資產品供應以防渡紅色供應鏈滲入國軍主要武器裝備確保關鍵系統與零組件來源具備穩定性與可控性以提升整體戰力運用之可靠度是"},{"start":2254.349,"end":2278.58,"text":"國防預算編列適切性及特別預算必要性現行國防預算區分為公務預算、特種基金及特別預算各自承擔不同功能公務預算主要支應常態性建軍與戰力維持需求115年國防部公務預算已達歷年最高然軍事投資預算以滿足持續案為優先"},{"start":2280.001,"end":2290.229,"text":"若欲快速提升戰力無法全數滿足新增案需求加計後續產製交裝付款之高峰期貨裝期程恐需延長時間實為緩不濟急"},{"start":2293.24,"end":2310.312,"text":"特種基金中僅國軍生產及服務作業基金之生產事業項目能應用於軍工產線增加及提升產製能量且軍備局生產製造中心多數產線建置契金已逾30餘年未曾更新"},{"start":2312.526,"end":2329.364,"text":"為應應戰時高消耗的彈藥需求國軍不斷思考擴增軍備產線以提升整體作戰韌性然而國軍生產及服務作業基金之生產事業年度剩餘有限近三年平均每年僅約四億餘元可供應用"},{"start":2330.485,"end":2353.718,"text":"僅能維持現有產線正常運作無法進一步投資擴充產能因此編列特別預算推動各兵工廠彈藥各裝戰甲車輛等生產新建及擴建與產能升級提升關鍵彈藥制自主生產與儲備能量特別預算於面對重大安全挑戰或迫切需求時"},{"start":2355.031,"end":2371.076,"text":"提供具實效性資源挹注補強既有預算配置可兼顧經費完整性及預算規模穩定為適應當前嚴峻敵情威脅國防部具提出強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例及特別預算規劃"},{"start":2374.921,"end":2390.601,"text":"擬於115至122年投入新台幣1兆2500億元為上限金額籌購精準火炮等系列裝備達成建構高度強韌全面嚇阻防衛戰力五 特別預算規劃執行案項"},{"start":2392.762,"end":2417.614,"text":"本部強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別預算涵蓋三大特色包含建構防衛體系打造台灣之盾引進高科技與AI加速擊殺鏈後值國防產業打造飛鴻供應鏈內含結構分明聚焦不對稱戰力之整合與強化防衛韌性案項說明如後如特別條例當中之一至七款"},{"start":2418.334,"end":2429.559,"text":"第一款精準火炮籌購M109A7自走炮60門精準彈藥4088彈藥車60輛救濟車13輛牛彈及其他附屬裝備第二款遠程精準打擊飛彈籌購海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統82套精準火箭1203箱戰術區域飛彈420枚第三款"},{"start":2447.935,"end":2476.704,"text":"無人載具及其反制系統第一項 反甲型無人機飛彈系統籌購Altius 700M1554架及Altius 600 ISR型478架第二項 濱海尖針型 濱海攻擊型含沉浸 投彈 自殺等各類無人機20餘萬架無人艇1000餘艘第三項 各類無人機反制系統"},{"start":2478.274,"end":2488.676,"text":"第四款 防空反彈道及反裝甲飛彈籌購標槍反裝甲飛彈70套1050枚托式2B反裝甲飛彈24套1545枚及各式防空飛彈系統含彈藥第五款 AI輔助與C8SR系統"},{"start":2501.257,"end":2510.353,"text":"第一項人工智慧決策支援系統第二項戰術網路及部隊快速情資分享應用套件第六款"},{"start":2511.978,"end":2539.304,"text":"強化作戰持續量能相關裝備第一項因應戰時高消耗擴增軍備產線你籌建各類型彈藥發射藥產線各式槍彈敵火生產線各式新式甲車組裝線高能炸藥生產線化學防護面具生產線及夜視鏡生產線等第二項機動阻絕器材以提升戰場阻絕能力為主"},{"start":2541.636,"end":2553.702,"text":"第三項產線未建立前為滿足戰備存量提升與基本訊號需求你籌購重要急缺彈藥項目包含120公里戰車砲彈、105公里戰車砲彈、30公里機砲彈、155公里流彈發射藥包及強力高能炸藥等項目"},{"start":2563.308,"end":2575.238,"text":"第七款台美共同研發及採購合作之裝備系統採購台美共同研發及採購合作之裝備以獲取新興科技系統被強化作戰韌性及提升不對稱戰力結語"},{"start":2578.197,"end":2597.603,"text":"因應地緣政治變化今年全球各國均大幅提升國防預算在未來數年內多數國家將大量採購武器裝備其中多數與我同類型需求相同極有可能相互排擠因此儘速籌獲迫切需要之關鍵不對稱與防衛韌性武器裝備極為必要懇請大院體會國軍武器裝備籌購之資源困境儘速將115年"},{"start":2605.265,"end":2612.308,"text":"總預算案及強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力企劃採購特別條例附會成長報告RMP盡情指教我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2642.508,"end":2643.489,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員"},{"start":2654.663,"end":2657.846,"text":"部長早部長這個會期即將結束這禮拜是這個會期的最後一個禮拜結果呢我們的政府總預算一毛錢都沒有省那強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰略的國防特別預算也是一再的被丟包在這個程序委員會"},{"start":2675.643,"end":2678.344,"text":"國防部今天的專案報告也說得非常的清楚國防預算區分為國務預算、特種基金跟特別預算然後每個預算各自其實是承擔了不同的功能要互相搭配才能夠比較完整來健全我國的"},{"start":2696.748,"end":2701.735,"text":"防衛能力那之前呢我看到這個台灣立志協會TIA做了一個民調他這民調有提到就是說有70.7%的這個國人認為呢目前國防我國的國防是不足以保護安全"},{"start":2713.05,"end":2718.334,"text":"再來有62.5%的民眾認為 阻擋國防特別預算是非常的不恰當的我也希望說在野黨的同仁們 可以看到這一份民調其實大家目前阻擋國防特別預算也好 或者是總預算也好其實國人是不認同的"},{"start":2734.987,"end":2753.257,"text":"再來我有看到報告裡面有提到就是115年國防部的公務預算已經是創了歷年的最高如果想要快速的來提升戰力的話我們目前的國防公務預算是沒有辦法來滿足新增案的需求"},{"start":2753.997,"end":2771.848,"text":"面對中國武力的威脅,國防特別預算就是要來補強既有預算的不足,提供實效性資源的預助。可是不管是公務預算也好,特別預算或特別條例,現在都是被擱置的。"},{"start":2773.349,"end":2788.275,"text":"那面對中國這麼嚴厲的武力的威脅我本席真的非常的遺憾在野黨的委員是視而不見 一再的阻擋那好115年度的總預算卡關的話又影響了一些像新興的一些案件其實是會延宕的甚至到目前是沒有辦法來做建制的像這個具有阻嚇戰力的海馬斯、魚叉、飛彈等等"},{"start":2802,"end":2817.346,"text":"這些到目前為止都還沒有,他就是沒有辦法進行下一步那還有具有不對稱戰力的這個標槍、刺針、飛彈等等那當然在野黨口口聲聲說,哎呀我們要我們要照顧這個官兵啊我們要提升這個戰鬥人員的這個戰鬥能力啊可是你們看一看,像這個有被擱置的這個預算裡面其中有88億的F16的訓練等等"},{"start":2827.752,"end":2856.672,"text":"這個很重要耶當我們這些戰鬥人員在執行任務的時候扎實的訓練才能夠保障他們的安全啊那我們說我們要照顧官兵可是呢連他們這老舊的這個營舍你都不願意來做修繕所以動不動就說要提升要提升他們這個薪資過去說實在過去以來我們提升了多少次的薪資可是真正要保護他們的安全真正要照顧到他們的生活的這部分呢卻是呢在野黨是一毛都不願意"},{"start":2857.332,"end":2873.79,"text":"真的是非常的這個糟糕明天呢就是再一次的程序委員會了就算是順利蔡議長良心發現了這個順利來復位的話說實在這會期也來不及來選了因為這個禮拜五我們這個會期就結束了那再來還有提到的就是這個"},{"start":2875.471,"end":2898.207,"text":"國防的特別預算在上個禮拜一的時候我們王定宇召委就安排了一次的機密會議可是機密會議結束之後還是有很多委員說我們真的不知道要買什麼其實全院的113位的立法委員都可以去參與上個禮拜一的如果你想真正了解的話"},{"start":2898.687,"end":2916.51,"text":"都可以去參加這次的機密會議很遺憾的真的是寥寥無幾可是呢我們真的覺得說真的國家的安全真的比其他任何的這個利益都還是重要我們不希望說國家的安全國防的軍備作為在野黨跟"},{"start":2918.512,"end":2922.715,"text":"國外勢力交換的利益這是讓人家覺得非常遺憾的地方再來我想請教的就是說我們一直有提到國防自主未來可能我們要成為非紅產業鏈的一環我有看到前陣子有專家指出主要的武器裝備從接裝到處理平均使用的年限大約是15到20年甚至會更長"},{"start":2944.953,"end":2948.478,"text":"那這段期間呢這彈藥的補充戶勤的維修零組件更換跟這個維保能量呢我們沒有辦法一直呢到目前為止我們是高度仰賴國外所以如果遇到這個交付延遲政治限制或暫時封鎖的話就可能是國防自主的一個結構性的風險"},{"start":2962.136,"end":2966.78,"text":"因此像國防預算 我們其實戰略的意義是把握對外採購的使於同時也要帶動國內的產製技術轉移跟產業鏈的建構讓軍購跟國防自主能夠平衡的發展當然我們也希望能夠帶動國內產業鏈的發展我想請教的就是說當然最近也看到有很多的國人在質疑就是說像我們"},{"start":2989.418,"end":3003.841,"text":"國防部在採購這個軍品軍備或勞務這個採購的時候呢我們都會用比如說有些公開的部分我們用公開抓標的方式來尋找協力廠商那大家很擔心的很擔心的就是說這些廠商會不會成為中共刺探然後鎖定滲透的這個目標請問部長跟委員報告就是說採購的案件它"},{"start":3016.99,"end":3045.259,"text":"會按照那個構案的機密的屬性來審慎檢討適當的一個招標的方式那如果是屬於公開招標的話公開招標的內容就限於依法可以揭露的這些基本的採購資訊那如果涉及到這個機密的話不管是作案能力裝備性能或敏感的需求等等就不對外公開然後依規定來辦理這個機密的分級跟管控"},{"start":3046.041,"end":3063.334,"text":"那另外如果說這個整個的購案的工項或籌貨的標的是屬於機密及以上的密等的話那按照政府採購法規定本來就是可以不適用這個公開照標的那主要當然我們"},{"start":3064.999,"end":3079.874,"text":"會不適用公開招標案也包括就是說這些面臨戰爭或戰備動員時的武器彈藥機密或極機密的採購以及危及重大戰備的這些緊急採購所以我們大概會做這樣子的一個"},{"start":3080.855,"end":3098.947,"text":"在採公開照標跟非公開照標的一個區隔這樣先跟委員說明所以這部分的話基本上來講到主要是公開照標的部分其實大家其實是不用那麼這麼大的擔心那當然還有針對系統維護啦還有是檔案建檔等等那當然這些維修人員必須進入到金區"},{"start":3099.947,"end":3123.794,"text":"然後接觸設備的勞務案件那當然我們有看到大家有在想說那這些得標廠商跟這些人員會不會又被中共鎖定作為滲透的目標像這個的話我們如何進行接觸的這個控管就得標之後這個廠商人員進入的話那我們會對這個廠商的背景跟實際施工進入的這些人員會做一個安全查核然後"},{"start":3126.656,"end":3140.798,"text":"另外我們當然還要看這個機密屬性的等級跟這個軍品的性質會有一個不同程度的一個查核的頻次跟深度這樣子"},{"start":3142.364,"end":3158.652,"text":"所以說因為這些外來這些這些人員維修人員畢竟就是不是我們我們軍區裡面的這個人員我們是還是說還是要請外面的進來所以像這樣這個的話對於這個可以說是中國中共的這個滲透式"},{"start":3159.372,"end":3176.557,"text":"無所不入所以我們會面對這些進到營區去的這些維修人員所以大家都會很擔心就是說他們會被鎖定所以像這之前的話那國防部其實也都有一些很嚴厲的控管是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":3177.677,"end":3202.859,"text":"背景等等的他要先辦一個安全查核查核後才可以進入營去參與這些勞務的施作那這個當然是我們盡量來來努力來做這樣子但是我想我們會持續強化但中國的這些滲透確實是越來越嚴重那我們所努力的能夠"},{"start":3203.92,"end":3211.471,"text":"做的當然就是剛剛講的對這些廠商做安全查核那對這些比較機敏的這些屬性的這些比較機敏的"},{"start":3216.028,"end":3231.66,"text":"營區或者比較機敏的這個軍品的這些項目或比較機敏的這些勞務司做的這些項目我們可能要還要進一步來來深化我們的查核的這個廣度跟深度我想這個都應該來來來持續加以精進"},{"start":3235.917,"end":3260.843,"text":"對中共的無孔不入的滲透當然是方方面面都要非常的謹慎當然我還是要提到國防特別條例該公開的部分我們也都公開了該召開的機密會議我們也都召開了部長想請問您認為這一次已經讓大家都充分的了解到國防特別條例跟國防特別預算這方面的急迫需求性嗎"},{"start":3262.871,"end":3276.289,"text":"我想我們大概已經在上一次的機密專報裡面已經有一個全盤說明這個一兆2500億在這個八年期間我們所要"},{"start":3277.911,"end":3306.209,"text":"的一個籌貨的這些特別著重於不對稱戰力跟防衛韌性的一些項目那我們認為如果有這樣子的一個特別條例的一個籌貨我們就能夠專注於這個讓這個具有整個經費的完整性跟預算規模的穩定性的情況之下我們就能夠構成一個高度強韌的"},{"start":3307.09,"end":3320.977,"text":"然後全面嚇阻的這個還原能力那我想昨天應該是禮拜最近嘛 禮拜就國防戰略的部分是剛剛公布嘛 對不對"},{"start":3322.199,"end":3341.642,"text":"美國剛剛公布美國剛剛公布我想他是延續國家安全戰略而來的那這個裡面有特別強調一點就是說要在整個第一島鏈全面建構這個集體嚇阻的能力那要求各有盟國家來分擔這樣子的一個責任那我想"},{"start":3342.142,"end":3367.174,"text":"在國家安全戰略裡面已經也將台灣列為第一島鏈的這個具有關鍵的地位所以對於我們要強化自我防禦能力我們站在第一島鏈的樞紐地位然後站在前沿面對強敵我想我們不可能有絲毫時間上面的一個浪費所以我們今天這個報告也充分也在"},{"start":3368.355,"end":3386.736,"text":"希望詳細的表達公務預算的配置然後基金的有限性然後再強調特別預算的一個迫切性與必要性那在這邊當然很誠摯的希望朝野都能夠支持那這樣子的一個特別預算編列其實是"},{"start":3388.217,"end":3415.792,"text":"我們也事先有跟美方做一個溝通那我想籌獲這些相關的武器對我們的戰力提升居居關鍵那我們如果沒有辦法通過的話我覺得影響是非常大非常大這個友盟對我們的這個我們到底有沒有意願要來防衛我們自己我們要不要來"},{"start":3418.072,"end":3440.039,"text":"一體力來構建一個嚇阻的戰力來持續來維持印太地區那特別是台海地區的一個和平穩定這個真的是非常攸關的一個特別預算條例那如果能夠護衛那有任何的疑問我想"},{"start":3441.599,"end":3466.505,"text":"我也在說過能夠公開的我們就會盡量予以公開不能公開我們就來開機密專報跟每個委員做一個詳盡的說明但是我們真的真的非常期待這個預算能夠這個條例能夠覆為那當然年度預算的這個部分這個也涉及到我們相關的這些"},{"start":3468.006,"end":3476.448,"text":"不管是人員維持 作業維持 軍事投資這個都有關我們的相關戰力維持剛剛委員也提到了 因為他如果不付"},{"start":3477.607,"end":3499.502,"text":"不審查的話不只是影響到我們的新增計畫案就是就算是我們的金額就算是作業維持費的金額只要這個項目的金額高過於去年的金額這個金額就不能夠去動用所以譬如說海馬斯那這個海馬斯去年編譬如說編100塊那我們今年編到"},{"start":3500.982,"end":3523.689,"text":"再多的 那多的部分就不能夠那海馬斯是屬於他要儘速快速交付的一個項目之一那這個影響會非常非常的大所以我們當然還是誠摯的期待朝野都能夠同意將這個我們的支持我們的國防預算那將年度總預算案覆為也將特別條例來覆為這樣"},{"start":3525.521,"end":3542.064,"text":"OK 好 我在想國防部已經進了最大的努力該公開的已經公開了然後呢 機密的上個禮拜也都召開了我都希望我希望說這是大家該了解的還是說進一步想要了解那就是副委來做審查"},{"start":3542.685,"end":3558.4,"text":"那我知道之前像前陣子AIT的處長吳立彥處長說Freedom is not free我想這個是非常重要的一句話真的是不管是國防特別條例 國防特別預算其實都有它的急迫性跟重要性好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 謝委員接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3575.56,"end":3577.888,"text":"好 召委有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3586.337,"end":3610.232,"text":"是 陳偉華部長您好剛才聽取了報告我特別今天藉這個機會回應您剛才講的上週美國發布了它的國防戰略那麼是根據國家安全戰略的上層指導那美國在2017年就把四年期國防總檢討把它廢止了然後每四年公佈一次"},{"start":3611.112,"end":3638.05,"text":"美国的国家防卫战略然后后面再有军事战略请教部长我们有没有办法要想修正我们的QDR因为这里面的内容主轴是有落差的我们现在看了美国的国家安全战略美国的国防战略后面还有军事战略出来以战规师的角度我们会不会要跟美国做同步的修正这个概念"},{"start":3641.045,"end":3669.013,"text":"鮑元我們相關的整個戰略規劃的部分事實上都一直在做整體的檢討跟考量那主要的部分我們就目前敵心威脅陡峰的狀況下我們是針對我們的防衛作戰構想跟上層次的軍事戰略上面去做檢討至於全班性的國防戰略的這個部分後面我們還是會依據我們整個戰略規劃的腳步來做一定程度的檢討"},{"start":3670.871,"end":3686.571,"text":"我提个建议就是我们去年出版的QDR比较上一个版本从48页进步到59页那谈国防战略军事战略从1.5页进步到4页这是有进步的那去年出的国防报告书"},{"start":3687.392,"end":3707.33,"text":"这个白皮书那么谈到国防战略跟军事战略从四页增加到六页有精进但是呢如果对应美国的这个国防战略的话我们面对这个重大的挑战这个内容啊我觉得还是要强化那么现在回到今天的主题啊就是谈到了这个"},{"start":3708.716,"end":3724.743,"text":"我们面对的挑战这是越来越严重因此的经费增加是所必然在刚才的过程中间前面的委员提到了就是说freedom is not free"},{"start":3727.082,"end":3743.716,"text":"but it's free to justify the cost that we can bearto secure Taiwan national securityand protect democracy所以英文不能只講前句後面還有它的但書同樣就是說我們在軍事採購的過程中間也有很多的"},{"start":3744.517,"end":3765.614,"text":"想定跟立案条件我们谈到无人机无人机是未来作战的一个趋势这是非常重要的在报告里面也列选了不管是从国外进口的军售的乃至于商售合作在国内生产20余万架无人机我相信在陆军的使用可能会超过一半陆军参谋长是"},{"start":3773.622,"end":3795.564,"text":"這個前面的論述我們完全是支持國防部的想法陸軍是在2026年前7月要編成大隊了但是實際上這種輕型的不管是徵收的或是攻擊型或是消耗式的無人機陸軍應該有佔到20萬架的一半以上吧江進"},{"start":3796.894,"end":3807.592,"text":"也是说这个状况下人员的训练年度这个训练的缘额额度还要强化要增加我们可以看一个就是说乌克兰"},{"start":3808.72,"end":3827.6,"text":"这个俄乌战争中间他们的无人机消耗每天2000架但是光在乌冬的战场就是台湾的两倍半的面积那我们的无人机的作业运用构想应该是在贪案防卫第一线这个是消耗性是很大的"},{"start":3828.16,"end":3848.994,"text":"因此你在无人机的储存库储料配件还有它的这个所谓的通讯频道在前面的预制规划先要跟不只是我们军用的频道那很多的民谣频道先要做沟通因为这个时候平时跟战时它是不用的"},{"start":3849.614,"end":3863.981,"text":"而不一樣的如果你覺得我們的wifi平時可用暫時不一定可靠那另外呢這個烏克蘭的無人機啊確實發揮了很大的效益可是如果沒有"},{"start":3865.161,"end":3886.464,"text":"新链也就是说Starlink去support它的无人机的功效都没有办法发挥我们因为目前还没有新链的合约当然在所谓Amazon未来的Blue Origin里面可能会有4508个卫星我们能不能合作"},{"start":3887.185,"end":3904.105,"text":"得到平宽这个未来是要共同努力所以无人机的消耗它是一个必然的但是年度人员的训练跟料配件的储存跟你的库房整建我觉得陆军在这个方面请强化您回答一下"},{"start":3905.39,"end":3926.648,"text":"包委員 我就幾個面向向您報告第一個 也有人質疑說在需求上面這麼數量這麼高的無人機我們全軍的編制還不及這個數量怎麼可能會操作那我在這邊說明一下這個數量的計算它包含到我們平常的訓練的需求還有所謂的戰備存量"},{"start":3927.388,"end":3944.708,"text":"而且它最主要也考虑到了无人机的迭代它并不是一次的获得这里面除了硬体的需求软体的更新还有它相关的通联都必须要有扩充性所以在这个方面是有纳入规划的那第二个部分有关于整个无人机的库储"},{"start":3945.589,"end":3970.541,"text":"那它包含到彈庫或是所謂的特定軍品庫房還有包含到庫房的整建修建在我們的整個規劃裡面都也有同步的納入規劃最後一點像委員報告就是說有關於無人機的頻率那我們在軍用無人機上面是屬於專屬的頻道那另外我們現在也在針對整個頻譜管理制定相關的單位來負責 以上報告"},{"start":3972.762,"end":4001.378,"text":"是那后面我特别用这张图提供您参考我们讲要去掉非红供应链那这里面还有几项通讯晶片这个非控软体含AI热像仪GPS的晶片非控晶片雷射测距这个部分中科院会跟国内产业甚至跟国外做合作因为这有一部分并不是在国内生产的院长您这边在这个地方强化解释一下"},{"start":4004.757,"end":4026.583,"text":"剛好今天有經濟部的官員出席我們這幾年從經濟部的無人機統籌型預算裡面獲得不少研發的經費這些經費不是只有我們自己在研究是跟國內的業者共同在開發研究這些晶片大概都已經到了相當成熟的程度只是後面的製程安排要必須要由我們的國內的生產廠商還願意把它的產線讓給我們來做製程的安排"},{"start":4029.005,"end":4044.458,"text":"好 这个要国内就是产业 企业 国防总括我们大家共同努力我们最后一个图片特别讲就是讲到台湾之盾实际上我们因为不同层级的sensor 侦搜器"},{"start":4045.459,"end":4074.155,"text":"那么还有不同的载台平台武器发射那要透过一个完整的网络架构链路那包括多轨追踪情资融合链路整合要产生一个复合同向也就是共同的图像这是一个组合起来涵盖台湾的周遭实际上我们的雷达sensor可能有几十座上百座有固定的有机动的那么目前IBCS的概念也导入进来了"},{"start":4075.031,"end":4096.388,"text":"可是因为我们在太空方面的能力是比较薄弱所以要靠美国的协助DSP卫星预警配合我们长程预警雷达产生的网路架构我上次也跟大家讲过了去中心化不是目标只是你的方法手段可是现在已经强调了我们要建立"},{"start":4097.642,"end":4125.609,"text":"叫什么联合火力协调中心那这个火协中心的目的就是C5ISR加Ttargeting因为对于固定目标的反制像海马斯是陆上目标你有坐标可是对于机动目标的critical timing那就必须要很短的时间做协调因此这个步骤我们看到跟美方合作成立这个构想这是很好的"},{"start":4126.269,"end":4138.36,"text":"那么国军这个持恒强化战力也在逐步往前推这里面有一个关键的我们一直在讲不对称战力不对称战力里面有一项就是人才的培养"},{"start":4139.249,"end":4168.669,"text":"因为你的硬体装备啊包括DP受训啊我们这个都了解这个重要性可是后续的原额跟经费啊这个要大幅的提支你比方讲我们原来买的这个海马斯M142原来是28加1现在再买82就已经111套了那它的目标的分配啊跟鱼叉这个火鞋中间就是产生了一个这很重要那不同的装备不同的界面问题呢有但是要克服要解决"},{"start":4169.309,"end":4197.337,"text":"所以在人才培养上面也就是说从各学校的这个宾科学校专业教育到联合子餐教育的准则教范这一定要赶快我想国防大学这个陆院的这个UTM坐标图纸图那个该精进了吧现在演习还是把纸图拼起来的那你将来怎么样学校毕业的人去配合我们新装备呢这个国防大学您做个简短回答"},{"start":4199.759,"end":4227.518,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們這個各子彈學院現在都有把這些相關的新興的武器啊都已經納入課程裡面了然後有相關那個剛才講到那個UTM座標啊還有那個相關那個共同圖像也都納入課程裡面然後現在那個那個最新的圖資啊我們都有配合我們國防部情事室那邊都有做一個申請申請跟更新然後後續啊所有的硬體硬體跟軟體啊設備啊我們都會有一個期程來做一個相應的一個一個規劃跟"},{"start":4228.541,"end":4229.872,"text":"跟他更放心"},{"start":4231.156,"end":4260.479,"text":"我想裝備的獲得籌貨很重要持續後面的維保也重要但操作人員更重要在這個部分我覺得要大家共同努力部長您請您做一個簡短回應我想剛剛委員的指教都很正確那有一些相關的一些事項我想我們必須要私下跟委員再做說明但是剛剛委員提到人員的培訓的部分當然是裡面非常非常重要的一塊是以上 謝謝好 謝謝大家共同努力"},{"start":4266.148,"end":4283.345,"text":"接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長"},{"start":4289.894,"end":4314.949,"text":"部長早部長我們今天還是接續要討論的是國防預算的一個相關編列這不只是我們國內的這個民眾非常關心也是國際友盟觀察我們自我防衛的一個決心一項非常重要的指標那我們現在不只是面對中共灰色地帶一個侵擾的一個升級那同時也是因應中國可能由訓轉嚴甚至由嚴轉戰的一個嚴峻敵情"},{"start":4319.656,"end":4341.817,"text":"看到這個在印太地區其他有盟國家包括日本韓國菲律賓再到美國澳洲等等都對國防預算進行檢討加大對於國防的一個投資來因應這個中共的軍事擴張台灣當然更有迫切的需求要盡速來提升我們自我防衛的一個能力"},{"start":4343.218,"end":4362.523,"text":"我們回顧政府所編列的整體國防預算從2020年的4000億到去年的6470億再到今年希望能夠超過GDP3%的一個門檻當中也包括還在執行的新式戰機的採購海空戰力的提升國安任性等"},{"start":4363.263,"end":4387.746,"text":"的特別預算那自從行政院在去年11月提出這項強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力的一個特別條例至今還沒有進入我們委員會來審查所以我想還是就幾個問題來跟部長您做討論其中我們現行的這個公務預算它的規模為何不能夠"},{"start":4390.512,"end":4415.855,"text":"來應對我們目前的這個威脅基於什麼樣的原因必須要透過跨年期的這個特別預算來執行那其次當我們的這個特別預算在國防支出的佔比有所增加我們在相關作業維持的這個支出上是不是能夠趕得上武器採購一併提升以確保我們裝備的這個戰力這部分是不是請部長做簡要的說明"},{"start":4416.695,"end":4434.126,"text":"我想分兩點第一點就是說假設我們有一個八年期的一個特別預算的話這整個的預算的規模它會是穩定的我們的預算的整個完整性跟穩定性就能夠確保那你如果排入年度預算那每年的年度預算這個"},{"start":4436.048,"end":4448.165,"text":"規模就沒有辦法有一個明白的確定那是第一點 第二點就是說年度預算如果我們將所有的這些我們的整體的需求都納入到年度預算的話"},{"start":4450.612,"end":4466.894,"text":"這個佔的這個排擠的這個如果全數由公預算編列會佔政府總預算會近高達百分之二十九那二十九那等於是會影響其他的民生經濟社福教育等的一個推動"},{"start":4467.675,"end":4495.674,"text":"所以我們一方面遵守財政紀律法將這個來來編列那一方面我們將這個特別預算用一個八年期讓他的整個預算的來源能夠穩定那經費能夠完整那這樣那當然我們每一在特別條例通過之後我們所做籌過的項目也是要經過大院來來來逐項的審核核准同意那我想一旦我想如果能夠有這樣子的一個八年期的這個這個"},{"start":4497.615,"end":4518.536,"text":"特別條例的預算的話我們另外年度預算的部分我想剛剛委員也提到其實各國都在預算的規模都在持續的增加我們也要增加但是我們增加的幅度再搭配特別預算的話我想這個兩者結合才能夠真正的整體的來增強我們的"},{"start":4519.987,"end":4543.634,"text":"這個即戰力的好那在這項特別預算規劃上從今年開始要執行了然後那在時間緊迫的問題上我想這個先前我們國防部也提出事件如果在預算審議的這個程序上有所延誕恐怕會導致我們裝備的這個交貨期被其他國家插隊影響的時間未來可能是以年"},{"start":4544.994,"end":4572.105,"text":"來計算這也反映到我們當前國際地緣政治的一個緊張導致全球這個軍工產能吃緊的情形並不是有錢就隨時都能買到我們想要的武器而是要和其他國家來做排隊那這一部分我想請教部長如果我們再失去在這個產線上的一個排序哪些武器可能會特別受到衝擊那對於我們整備的這個期程又有多大的影響"},{"start":4572.864,"end":4589.466,"text":"另外除了目前已經知會我們國會的五項裝備還有部分的這個案項還在由美方審查當中那我們是否已經確保能夠獲得剩餘的這些項目包委員我這邊做個簡單的說明"},{"start":4591.263,"end":4607.245,"text":"我們目前編列這些項目已經智慧國會的這些幾乎每一項都是全球各國接下來會大量採購的因為目前各國面對的主要威脅包含了中共 俄羅斯跟北韓"},{"start":4608.413,"end":4627.316,"text":"那在這三個國家裡面防空飛彈跟反彈道飛彈的需求幾乎是一致的那在地面作戰上面輕便的反裝甲武器還有精準火砲的這個部分尤其是155公里彈藥的這個部分也是很明顯的一個需求"},{"start":4628.223,"end":4644.505,"text":"那要跟委員補充報告的是我們接下來發價書因為已經過了30天應該在近期即將就會拿到如果我們在45天之內一般來說45天的效期之內沒有處理"},{"start":4645.848,"end":4661.078,"text":"那理論上可以延長一次但是那不是一定的如果美方不同意發價書延長那我們勢必得整個程序要再走一遍那這個耗費的時間我們上次有跟委員報過我們從"},{"start":4663.099,"end":4682.151,"text":"去年大概3月份左右提出這個需求一直到12月才撤回國會中間耗了8個多月的時間如果我們後面在時程上面延宕到發價書後續跟美方議談跟簽署的時間的話他所拖延的時間會更進一步的擴大"},{"start":4684.599,"end":4711.402,"text":"好 那我們這次提出來也是要強調要強化我們國防自主和發展軍工的產業尤其是要扶植我們國內無人載具和AI的產業近期我們總統也有提到國防特別預算不僅守護國家的安全更是要推動我們產業升級的一個重要動能而除了對美採購之外預算當中也有一定比例是要留給我們國內產制"},{"start":4713.291,"end":4738.501,"text":"那在規劃這個籌購的品項當中有超過20萬架的各式無人機會優先以我們國產為主那在這相當於考驗我們國內廠商的這個產能是否能夠負擔以及供應鏈的整個體系的建構是否足夠完整那不論是對於我們軍工產能的一個擴大或是給予我們國內廠商的一個協助應該都是由國防部"},{"start":4739.201,"end":4760.132,"text":"和相關單位跨部會一起來合作這部分我想和部長您討論是國內我們軍工產業的這個規模還在成長當中那對於打造這個飛鴻供應鏈如何擴大我們業者參與的這個動機或是提供這個測試的場域以及接軌國際供應鏈等等我們國防部有什麼樣的一個實際規劃或作為"},{"start":4761.593,"end":4787.689,"text":"能夠進一步簡單的說明嗎是 薛委員我想剛剛委員提到有兩點非常重要一個是非紅供應鏈非紅供應鏈的部分特別在無人機上面有一些相關的這些不管是通訊導航這些都會涉及到如果我們不排除紅色的供應鏈的話我們會在這個無人機的這個打造上面這個會值得看慮那所以這個不是只有我們擔心包括美國"},{"start":4788.61,"end":4814.272,"text":"包括其他的印太區域的國家甚至歐洲國家也都擔心所以在無人的載具上面打造一個飛鴻供應鏈是相當重要的那因為過去大家也都知道在無人機的市場上面這個以現在來講民用的大將無人機他所佔的一個市場的佔有率是相當相當的高的所以我們國防部要建立一個長單的需求然後來"},{"start":4817.034,"end":4830.02,"text":"來讓這個我們的產業願意來投入這個產線這是第一點那第二點無人機它有一個迭代創新的一個特色也就是說我們不是像說這個馬尼瓜M1A2"},{"start":4830.82,"end":4845.956,"text":"那我們就用MNT那它性能升級可能可以但是是相當有限但是無人機是非常迭代創新的所以我們今天談到一個差異化的全收集管理所以無人機我們會有依照軍種的不同需求陸軍有陸軍的需求"},{"start":4848.238,"end":4868.326,"text":"這個海軍亂隊有海軍亂隊的需求這個海軍有海軍的需求那甚至空軍也有一些比較大型的一些需求等等那這些相關的這些需求我們把它納入各種的無人機的這個硬體的面那同時在硬體面之外我們要將軟體的更新感測跟通聯系統的升級等等都要依照科技發展的"},{"start":4869.707,"end":4898.042,"text":"這個進程來及時提升那這整個的這種無人機的這個籌貨的模式其實會跟過去傳統武器會有相當的不一樣那這一個部分就要靠國內的這些產業他願意投入產線那同時他也願意不管是跟我們既有的不管是中研院或者是其他這些單位來合作同時國外國外的部分也要加入然後形成合作"},{"start":4898.502,"end":4922.662,"text":"那同時產一個技術轉移那最最重要的就是說要在地的量能要能夠提升之後我們這個國防自主才能夠維護因為一旦面臨任何的緊急狀況的時候我們如果能夠依照烏克蘭的經驗我們能夠在地的自主生產這對於整個的防衛作戰的韌性的強化是佔了一個非常關鍵重要的地位好"},{"start":4924.11,"end":4941.852,"text":"那我想面對這個敵情的一個威脅日劇的嚴重那我們這個國防部要如何在最短的時間內來提升我們的戰力爭取相關的這個軍工產線的一個排序我想這部分還是要請我們國防部這個"},{"start":4943.669,"end":4971.706,"text":"接續的這個去做努力我們做整體的規劃然後也不斷的會持續來精進檢討那在這個國防安全方面我想還是要強化我們自我的這個國防能力才能夠真正的來防衛到我們國家的安全我相信這是大家都能夠認同也都是正確的一個方向那敵人的這個威脅還有這個敵人的這個武力的這個"},{"start":4973.047,"end":5001.024,"text":"矩爭 對我們國家的一個安全的一個這個恫嚇我想這是我們目前在整個這個社會氛圍上我們都感受得到所以也唯有這個備戰才能夠止戰我相信這也是很正確的一個方向人家在說的這個靠爹你若沒生肉然後你自己如果沒有媽嫂的話我想這個強權國家對於我們的吞噬對於我們的一個威脅會日據的嚴重這也是不變的定律"},{"start":5001.924,"end":5024.329,"text":"還是要懇請我們所有的委員不分朝野能夠對於我們國防預算的一個支持能夠盡快讓我們相關的預算通過之後讓我們國防部盡快來對於相關武器的採購可以有一個更加接續的程序來進行好 謝謝 敬請大院能夠支持好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員的諮詢好 謝謝"},{"start":5034.096,"end":5036.438,"text":"下面我們請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":5054.038,"end":5081.714,"text":"部長好部長今天其實有幾位委員大概有提到就是希望包括國防部的立場都希望大家朝野都可以支持我們國防預算從過去到現在我相信所有的委員都是非常支持我們的國防預算只是這個必須要站在監督的立場我相信今天大家可以基本上探討一些這樣的部分所以在這裡我們要表明的是"},{"start":5082.334,"end":5096.179,"text":"不管是怎麼樣的一個只要國防部要購買先進的武器增加國軍作戰能力我們絕對不非反反對可是我們有高額的這樣子的國防預算尤其我們從過去3000億到6000億到現在9000多億的公務預算在剛通過的"},{"start":5104.062,"end":5122.735,"text":"任性預算裡面其實也剛通過1100多億那現在又要編高額的這樣子的一個特別預算高達一兆2500億我相信國人也非常的關注因為就像部長剛剛說的其實他可能會牽涉到會有排擠的一個作用"},{"start":5123.295,"end":5143.531,"text":"他面對我們的所有的民生所有的社福所有的醫療還包括所有的基礎建設可能都會受到衝擊所以如果國防這個部分的預算這麼重要我相信他更應該清楚的向國人交代在這之前事實上我們是沒有清楚的"},{"start":5144.252,"end":5152.276,"text":"就上一次開個全機密會議以外那機密會議以後才稍微公布了一些公開的這樣相關的預算也在那個時候才稍微把這樣的一個1.25兆想要花的錢稍微具體化一點雖然這裡面還有很多的問題所以我們也希望如果有收受外國資金有收受外國金錢的"},{"start":5172.204,"end":5193.354,"text":"其實是不應該隨便去指控別人沒有要監督或者像這樣的立場我覺得是不適當的因為這樣會讓人家覺得說是不是在當說客或者是在幫某些國家在爭取這樣的資源我想今天大家的立場都是一樣我們都希望好好的去看這筆預算"},{"start":5195.435,"end":5207.904,"text":"當時我們會希望有一些就像我們的公寓預算一樣啊你有一些會是機密的那個我們非常尊重過去機密預算大概都是美方如果他還沒有支會國會之前我們會"},{"start":5210.646,"end":5232.122,"text":"有默契的把它放在機密預算或者如果你是有一些特別可能在研發階段或有其他相關的這樣考量會放在機密可是不會包括像要買無人機無人艇或者像要買其他的彈藥或者其他的本來都已經放在公務預算的這些部分你還把它放在機密的報告裡面這樣會讓人家覺得好像裝神弄鬼"},{"start":5237.566,"end":5242.11,"text":"這是我們不能接受的所以就這個部分我們還是希望在後續我們還是可以好好的來探討這個部分因為今天我們攤開內容來看我們有提到就是除了這些機密的部分以外無論是無人機雷霆2000次世代系統機器狗彈藥產線還有各種人在研發中的新型裝備"},{"start":5264.501,"end":5272.887,"text":"這些都不是突發的我們編列特別預算其實他是有特別的需求跟考量比如說我們已經快要發生戰爭了這是非常風險非常高的狀況或者我們碰到天災地變或者重大的經濟傷害的時候其實特別預算編列的條件他是有規範的"},{"start":5284.554,"end":5309.522,"text":"不是我們用口頭說現在很需要然後我們需要穩定性所謂的穩定性我不曉得我們過去到現在我們在正常的公務預算裡面有什麼不穩定我們從過去到現在我們給的很多預算裡面通常是我們給了錢可是他武器裝備到現在沒有到位這是現在正在發生的事情而不是我們的立法院沒有給錢"},{"start":5311.226,"end":5316.988,"text":"根本沒有發生這樣的事情而且有所謂的不穩定是因為我們所有的武器裝備或者我們採購的項目沒有到位或者達不到標準而不是沒有經費所以這個部分想要在這裡先釐清所以它如果既然不是突發然後不可預期然後也不是沒有辦法納入規劃的事件這些本來就應該要放在五年建軍計劃裡面"},{"start":5338.157,"end":5345.499,"text":"依他的成熟度分年編列逐年審查他的建軍項目即便需要加速你也可以完成分年編列特別預算如果他有急需的話我們也同意他可以分年編列特別預算而不是用一個總括式的特別條例把所有的項目一次打包而且這都是後來才填進去的之前你們有讓委員會知道嗎有讓全體國人知道嗎"},{"start":5368.396,"end":5375.559,"text":"這個也是特別條例最大的風險所在因為一旦條例通過他預算被匡列了一照2500億其實他就是把它用到晚為止我們過去的前瞻預算8800億現在我們發現有一些少子化辦公室或者相關的預算其實有一些您這樣子講應該不適合您作為這麼多的召委講的議事程序的內容吧"},{"start":5393.145,"end":5411.972,"text":"一照2500億是一個上限金額在條例通過之後我們要提出預算的詳細項目這個還要經過大院的許可啊部長你先聽我講完您這樣講好像部長你先聽我講完他的上限金額就是一照2500億一旦通過除非有被刪減嘛那刪減是審查以後可是我現在要講沒有 特別預算裡面特別預算裡面除了我們在審部長請聽我講完"},{"start":5419.534,"end":5422.855,"text":"我們現在在過去的幾個特別預算裡面其實現在都是這樣一旦匡列了他的上限金額其實大概都會把它使用到完除非他有審查被刪除那現在我們現在要討論的就是你後續逐年修正檢討或喊停的制度空間就會喪失很多"},{"start":5443.144,"end":5463.818,"text":"這個不像我們一般的公務預算可以好好的去做審查所以他真正該被討論的不是他內容刪不刪而是這些項目到底需不需要用特別條例這是我們現在要特別強調的這些部分到底需不需要用到特別條例我們從過去到現在其實你們現在提到的很多其實都是在公務預算裡面編的你們現在只有一個理由就是我們急需可是當你在講急需的時候我們來看幾個例子"},{"start":5473.304,"end":5494.683,"text":"我們從過去到現在我們在這個部分我們大概不過委員講的就是這樣子那至少要復違一下吧現在就是你到底要不要放在裡面因為你項目才剛出來不是要復違而是應該要先釐清這些是不是適合放在那裡我們再來討論這個部分那適不適合放在那裡你連互違都不互違那怎麼討論"},{"start":5497.236,"end":5501.479,"text":"你應該先讓大家看到啊因為大家都看不到的時候要怎麼付委部長今天你如果說你有一個需求你說你兒子跟你說我要五千萬然後我可能要有一個人生的規劃跟需求那你也要有項目可是你的項目是現在才拿出來當之前大家在程序委員會的時候大家根本不知道你的內容"},{"start":5527.416,"end":5540.722,"text":"這是第一點第二個我們現在要討論的是現在我們在預算委員會在做什麼樣子的一個一個一個一個一個議事這個部分大家都很清楚"},{"start":5543.023,"end":5560.533,"text":"請尊重立法院因為現在他就是還沒有通過程序委員會這個部分現在目前的進度是這樣因為我們看到現在可能預算有錯置的部分比如說他明明有基金預算還有我們有分年規劃的獲得的相關預算可是我們現在要把子彈火藥還有製程設備有一些你就要把它放在我們的特別預算裡面"},{"start":5573.307,"end":5588.241,"text":"這個部分另外就是在另外一個類別類型就是說我們選了不成熟的路線可是我們也沒有停損的機制這個部分我們舉個例子來說就是我們的奉展專案"},{"start":5589.102,"end":5604.003,"text":"奉展專案從2012年本來他的規劃期程2023年就要完成可是他在這中間延了兩次現在延到2026年現在又延到2028年奉展專案就是我們F16AB的升級案"},{"start":5604.784,"end":5609.726,"text":"它高達長達14年以上現在在延長可能長達16年以上它現在目前可能還有的狀況是我們的電站夾艙我們之前說要研發可是後來無疾而終我們也編了錢錢也不知道哪裡去了那時候都說非常重要可是當它沒有的時候我們好像也就沒有了"},{"start":5626.172,"end":5634.858,"text":"那另外還有就是我們在這個有很多有延宕還有造成戰力空窗的部分因為最近因為F16這個戰機摔落的時候我們才發現我們自動防撞系統其實是還沒有建置完成"},{"start":5644.144,"end":5655.609,"text":"我們的遠距遙控武器也要到2027或2028才可以完成另外還有任務電腦現在可能還是有狀況的情況之下這些部分其實我們的預算都是有給足"},{"start":5659.571,"end":5664.395,"text":"這個部分我們只是後來才發現這些部分都還沒有建置完成所以我們要的是怎麼樣讓我們所有的武器裝備它可以即時到位而且是符合我們的戰力需求這是國防部應該要去要求的而不是只要錢因為我們過去到現在我剛剛講的奉產專案我們講的F16V還有我們的永英號如果大家有印象的話永英號現在也在延宕交貨當中"},{"start":5687.193,"end":5699.458,"text":"我們的潛艦其實他的戰力形成可能要到203幾年以後如果順利的話所以我們不斷不斷的花錢我們不斷不斷的編預算當我們要這些預算的時候都說我們要展現給我們其他的有盟的國家看然後我們要讓我們的國人有信心可是當我們預算都有給的情況之下我們看到現在的戰力是有空隙的我們的"},{"start":5714.765,"end":5733.654,"text":"這些武器膠裝是延宕的所以像這一些他要怎麼到位這個都是有很大的影響還有我們F16我們現在都跟說跟美方買大家如果有印象的話川普第一任的時候他有答應出售給我們自走炮就是A6"},{"start":5735.199,"end":5750.712,"text":"可是後來他們一句話說不賣了說產能的問題到最後叫我們我們錢也不能退啊我們還是那些預算可是我們必須買海馬斯那你現在美國現在要同意我們"},{"start":5752.236,"end":5757.617,"text":"也是自走炮有賣A7萬一他又突然變卦了我們到底有什麼樣談判的能力我們現在要講的是除了像我們剛剛講的預算應該要配置妥善以外然後還有像我們這些談判的風險我們完全沒有能力去跟美方做談判包括他沒有辦法交機我們也沒有能力去做要求"},{"start":5776.101,"end":5781.823,"text":"然後如果說像他已經答應說要賣給我們也知會國會然後也已經公告我們預算也編了他突然變卦的時候我們也沒有辦法去做什麼任何的調整所以就這幾項來看我們才會說我們希望我們要編列這麼高額的預算當我們一步到位的時候美方也要求日本也要求韓國他們的國防"},{"start":5802.648,"end":5816.359,"text":"必須要達到GDP的3或3.5以上他們都沒有答應 甚至也沒有做到可是我們現在如果依照我們今年的公共預算9450億再加上通過的1100億的任期預算超過一兆多 這個已經高達3.5日本明年的公共預算已經要達到9兆日元"},{"start":5825.407,"end":5841.789,"text":"我們不是比9兆我們說的是GDP因為他的量體不一樣日本到現在他的GDP就是2點幾%而已而不是9兆日圓部長我們用的要一樣的比例就是說比如說你的收入是多少跟一般"},{"start":5842.931,"end":5849.86,"text":"其他人的收入他的支出就會不太一樣這個部分是我們特別要提出來講的所以在這裡我們最後要強調的就是說其實我們支持可是你必須要用對地方然後必須有即時的戰力像我們說機器狗"},{"start":5860.814,"end":5872.38,"text":"大家會覺得說機器狗可能也很符合我們的作戰需求可是他不是把他展示或者引進買來他就已經具備戰力因為會讓人家有這樣的錯覺其實他最重要的困難點在於他的通聯如果我們買相關的武器裝備包括你要買無人機包括你要買無人艇這些他"},{"start":5883.965,"end":5888.308,"text":"他的通聯抗干擾還有辨識誤判在交戰規則裡面都必須要符合他一直機器狗出去他不是就知道敵人在哪裡或者他就能夠作戰所以我們希望在你買這些武器裝備尤其像無人機我們要買那麼多國防部也一直強調他有迭代的問題因為他不斷不斷的在更新像我們買的Artist 600"},{"start":5909.562,"end":5912.426,"text":"他剛開始我們的有一些武器裝備可能在俄烏戰爭他初期是不錯的可是後來其實他的抗干擾或者其他的反制的這些作為都出來以後其實他已經就會失效或者成為被獵殺的目標"},{"start":5926.963,"end":5935.549,"text":"美軍的空軍跟海軍都有去測試過他們甚至烏克蘭在2024年也不部署了可是我們現在要花很高的金額現在我們已經有買了啊可是現在又要編高額的預算在特別預算裡面要去買那這些是不是符合我們或者他是不是不夠好我們沒有辦法監督所以這個部分是我們特別在特別預算裡面這麼高的預算要用掉這麼多的錢我們應該要特別去審慎評估的"},{"start":5957.043,"end":5961.084,"text":"回到基本的這句話這些項目真的那麼重要那麼正當我們希望我們回到正當的建軍規劃裡面接受分年預算逐項審查跟持續的監督這個部分因為不要選擇性的說我們所有的我剛剛提到的我們現在所有的建案我們都是給足了錢那如果有需要我相信我們所有的國人都會予以支持這個部分部長"},{"start":5982.862,"end":6007.434,"text":"我想委員所講的說我們所有的事情都要進入來討論我剛剛已經講了如果你連互違都不肯互違我們連討論都沒有辦法進行討論那請問您剛剛講的那些在每一個項目我們需要的籌貨的必要性跟破業性上面我們根本沒有辦法進行互違討論的情況下您剛剛講的那麼一大堆的事項"},{"start":6008.94,"end":6016.891,"text":"那現在就還在程序委員會理論上來講 理論上來講特別條例沒有互違沒有按在委員會裡面"},{"start":6018.26,"end":6027.222,"text":"我們要如何進行討論您所有剛剛的指教都要先互為我們才能夠進行討論嘛我們也排了一個機密專報委員也沒有來我們在機密專報上面已經詳細的說明了我剛剛有講過了為什麼我們會參加全機密預算是因為它有一些必須公開的你不應該裝神弄鬼把它用全機密包裝如果你在當天的下午就可以有一些部分可以公開為什麼你一開始的"},{"start":6045.585,"end":6053.107,"text":"我們就可以公開的事實上都有跟委員在個別的進行溝通啊難道沒有進行溝通嗎今天是立法院我們所有應該要得到正常的資訊的時候你在事先要附委的時候就應該給所有的委員知道你到底要怎麼花 到底要怎麼用 到底要買什麼而不是在幾次都沒有通過以後你才慢慢慢慢的說你要做什麼現在部長本來就要先附委嘛"},{"start":6076.072,"end":6104.697,"text":"沒有 是應該要讓大家知道你要做什麼比如說 那個不是在委員會比如說你要買F16的時候很清楚的知道美方他提要求的就是2500億左右所以你在特別預算的條例或者他的預算其實都可以去編這樣的預算那個大家都沒有意見所以就這個部分部長您要不要說一下哪一個你覺得非常需需的"},{"start":6106.031,"end":6112.093,"text":"我想我們在機密的專報裡面都已經有做過充分的說明除了機密以外公開的沒有必要嗎請委員能夠支持啦沒有 這不是知不知恥部長你不是說在機密預算裡面我現在給你時間說比如你認為哪一個非常迫切需要然後一定要放在特別預算然後一定要通過你可以舉一個就好了你舉一個"},{"start":6130.629,"end":6133.671,"text":"我們所有的七類的裝備對我們強化不對稱作戰及強化紅衛韌性都是至關重要我們知道它至關重要可是你有些你過去買F16也很重要啊你買F16也很重要啊你的貨轉有益靠野"},{"start":6147.66,"end":6151.065,"text":"你快速投入你到現在連一架飛機都還沒有拿到你要怎麼快速投入今天你要告訴我們怎麼樣去改善這些你都沒有辦法付的錢還沒到位的部分所以委員的意思就是說我們F16沒辦法交機我們所有其他的裝備都不需要投購了你不是只有F16沒有交機"},{"start":6163.16,"end":6164.981,"text":"你還有其他的部分也都沒有包括我們的彈藥我們的新廠才剛建好你花了三四百億以上才剛建好的產線居然沒有辦法自製我們自用的這些彈藥的裝備過去都可以 現在不行你也要讓大家知道為什麼不可以"},{"start":6183.673,"end":6189.718,"text":"結果你們在現在特別預算裡面也要放入這些產線這是沒有辦法交代的所以我剛剛有請部長你提一個嘛你不要說每一個都很重要那跟大家的認知會不一樣啊你今天身為部長你講一個說我們必須用特別預算我們用其他的預算就沒有辦法做然後我們一定要趕快隨便舉一個可以嗎"},{"start":6208.277,"end":6233.676,"text":"您如果想到相關的產線相關的產線我們會要增加它的量能不是啦 用在特別預算裡面的啦然後另外呢我們對於國內產能不足或者是沒有自主產能的這個部分呢我們也要透過這些特別預算來進行這個產線的強化增建或者是再請其他的相關的途徑來籌得才能夠迅速的建置我們所需要的戰備存量跟訓練需求這是非常具有急迫性的"},{"start":6234.022,"end":6236.424,"text":"部長所以你沒有聽清楚我們剛剛講的我們才剛建新廠你今天如果說用這些沒有辦法去形成我們沒有不想聽我們很清楚的聽我只是希望部長可以提出一個很具體的必須要在"},{"start":6250.818,"end":6271.714,"text":"特別預算裡面編列的那我們當然非常予以尊重啊就這個部分我想這個部分大家還是有討論的空間那就這個部分如果說還沒有辦法有具體的答案我們也不知道應該要怎麼樣來做這樣的支持因為我們看到很多東西就是延宕就是影響戰力就是影響我們所有的安全包括飛行員包括我們所有其他的國軍這個部分我們希望國防部要首先重視的是這個部分謝謝"},{"start":6280.868,"end":6298.59,"text":"好謝謝馬委員部長喝口水我們請下一位沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":6309.978,"end":6311.242,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":6321.951,"end":6342.964,"text":"部長好 這個我是認為這個現在我們研會已經延到這個時候了說真的我覺得這個國防外交委員會現在跟不存在根本就一模一樣程序委員會現在是實質的就是把這一個國防的條例擋在程序委員會程序委員會把自己當作國防外交委員會"},{"start":6344.525,"end":6372.58,"text":"剛剛前面的委員一直提到說哪一個項目他認為不適合放在這一個條例如果認為哪一個項目不適合放在這個條例那就放到委員會審查不就好了嘛你在委員會你可以刪除啊你可以說我在條例上面我這個項目不要啊一到七項我認為六七不要啊我認為金額應該調整啊這個都應該要在外交國防委員會來處理但現在這個案子就是進不了國防外交委員會"},{"start":6373.781,"end":6390.459,"text":"所以我覺得我們都在浪費時間就是如果這個是應該全民討論的我們機密會議也開了我們也知道為什麼他要編列在機密了民意代表本來就是應該代表人民在這邊做審查結果我們現在呢要做審查預算也全部都看完了我們根本就沒有辦法坐在這邊做審查那請問開這個會到底要做什麼"},{"start":6393.715,"end":6418.553,"text":"所以我真的覺得我真的是快受不了了現在我知道我覺得這一點是非常糟糕藍白在那邊提說要自己提這個軍購的版本我沒有聽說過立法委員自己軍購的立法委員自己軍購請問他要怎麼知道軍種的需求要怎麼知道現在跟世界各國談的狀況到底到如何請問這個特別條例要怎麼寫現在如果立法委員自己做軍購要把這個特別條例提出來那我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":6419.554,"end":6433.064,"text":"所以剛剛我覺得部長回答得很好因為剛剛我看委員就一直在問說到底哪一個最重要我告訴大家如果今天假設我們家今天被一個竊盜集團盯上了所以我們決定要在前門後門跟窗戶都要裝鎖"},{"start":6434.72,"end":6454.257,"text":"現在他們就是問你說你前門後門裝戶你到底哪一個最重要請你告訴我每一個都很重要我要防竊賊我每一個點我都應該要裝鎖才對我怎麼可能前門裝鎖我後門不裝鎖現在他們就是希望什麼希望回答出來一個反正哪一個最重要他們就自己提一個軍購條例然後就只有那一個項目我們就漏入陷阱"},{"start":6455.273,"end":6479.35,"text":"所以這邊國防部一定要撐住今天8年1.25兆這個項目對我們的國家安全就是至關重要我們就應該要堅守這樣的一個立場我們不能夠讓他們提出閹割版的現在如果連機密會議都沒有來或者說連這個事項到底跟別的國家到底討論到什麼程度哪一些智慧國會哪一些沒有都搞不清楚的狀況之下那根本就等於是要提出一個淘寶版的嘛"},{"start":6479.89,"end":6494.785,"text":"就是一個拼多多版的一個軍購條例然後要自己把它拿到委員會討論我覺得這是我們不能夠接受的事情那接下來我必須要講就是我們現在看到越來越多的委員來這邊問的時候都是在針對個案我覺得很糟糕這個"},{"start":6497.577,"end":6515.415,"text":"就昨天而已吧昨天我們可以看到這一個有一個Alex這個運動員爬我們這個101這個賈永傑這個董事長其實真的在這個規劃上面做得很好但我就往前看新聞我就看到什麼我就看到當時要任命他的時候藍白就在那邊講講說什麼這個是什麼 酬庸啦"},{"start":6517.978,"end":6543.457,"text":"我想说你今天任用一个人才到哪一个位置上面我现在发现一件事情就是反正只要他们认为不是他们的他们全部都买叫做酬佣这个就发生在跟国防一样我看前阵子这个CK杨在这一个国民党的这个会议里面参叙里面讲说什么就开始讲说我们这边就一定是为了哪一个军火商为了什么东西去诋毁我们现在的军购"},{"start":6544.478,"end":6571.196,"text":"我必須要講就是我們現在很常遇到這種事情比如說今天這個廠商他今天得標了其他的廠商沒有得標全部都說這個叫弊案然後每一個都用影射的立場到質詢台上面然後透過立法委員然後去影射說你看這個本來是做什麼的為什麼他現在可以做這一個然後每一個都買叫弊案那我們從歷史上來看我們可以看到非常多台灣的廠商他原本是做別的比如說千富他本來製鞋的"},{"start":6571.716,"end":6597.696,"text":"後來來做這一個跟愛國者飛彈相關的就是明明都有這些我們台灣好不容易可以第一個國防自主然後讓我們的經濟發展讓工作機會變多本來這樣的好事都被他們當作喪事在辦如果這個狀況一直這樣下去我們在這邊開會就變成是一個造謠的場所根本就不是在針對我們的國防預算做把關都在影射都在講根本就不存在的事情"},{"start":6598.596,"end":6603.062,"text":"真正應該要細項我們要討論我們都做不到那這半年到底要做什麼"},{"start":6604.403,"end":6628.744,"text":"所以我今天我還想問一個問題因為我們今天一直聚焦在8年1.25兆但我現在對於總預算還沒有審查我也覺得非常的擔心因為總預算它也會編到以往我們本來有的這個類似特別條例然後每年要編預算那像我們看我看這個HF的通信機這個通信機有攜帶式的也有要安裝在這個艦艇上的那它也是每年要編預算"},{"start":6629.685,"end":6649.118,"text":"那我就在想假設前年執行了去年也執行了然後因為總預算現在卡關了那明明是一個延續性的計畫它就會卡在那邊那假設今天有廠商它已經開標了但是呢最後就沒有辦法決標因為就卡住在那邊嘛"},{"start":6649.938,"end":6659.012,"text":"那這個時候呢如果好不容易我們拖了很長一段時間總預算通過了這個對已經開標的業者來講這可能會有司法徵送的問題"},{"start":6660.236,"end":6680.01,"text":"那一旦進入到司法徵送我們就要付出更多的預算來處理一個根本不應該處理的事情所以我現在擔心的事情就是不但是對我們國內的廠商還有針對我們國際現在在跟其他的政府在談這些事項的時候只要不只是特別條例的問題連總預算的延宕都可能會造成"},{"start":6685.194,"end":6713.958,"text":"我們今天跟別人談的案子會延宕這個一延宕效序有可能幾個結果一個結果是別人乾脆不想來不想理你了另外一個就是要進入到法律徵送的程序因為拖到時間那一旦進入到這個程序我們要多付出更多的成本所以原本應該花的錢我們都沒有花然後也沒有去討論然後最後還要去花一個根本我們不應該付出的一個預算所以現在針對這一點就是第二點這一邊就是這種多年期的計畫請問國防部現在的應對方案是什麼"},{"start":6715.475,"end":6719.484,"text":"您說放在年度預算的多年期的計畫現在就是有一個"},{"start":6721.57,"end":6745.384,"text":"如果總預算一直是不能夠審查他最主要不是在說只有新增的一個計劃項目他就是說只要是114叫114年度增加的部分都不能夠用那這個以講海馬士多管火箭系統來講的話我們的金額應該就是會比"},{"start":6747.318,"end":6772.408,"text":"原來編41億那現在115年編75億那超過41億的部分的34億就變沒有辦法那他還蠻好事他現在要交付那我們沒有辦法有這個如果總預算一直沒有辦法審議那我們這個多出來的34億就會變成沒有辦法執行要補充請說包委員因為這幾個案子我們有幾個案子是"},{"start":6776.469,"end":6796.897,"text":"在之前疫情的時候有跟各位報過他有受到延宕的影響但是從去年開始一直到今年這是一個非常重要的轉折點尤其是今年今年我們最後的28輛M1A2T戰車已經做完了已經放在兵工廠裡面等著我們付最後一筆錢"},{"start":6798.297,"end":6813.824,"text":"海馬市它是提前的提前這個就會有產線的問題如果我們今年延後到下半年度才有辦法付這個款的話那我們海馬市後面的產線它的排成就會受到衝擊其他的部分"},{"start":6814.944,"end":6838.8,"text":"如果說委員有興趣的話我們可以像你這樣細講這邊就不足以的去列舉這些細節對 因為我覺得這個是重要的因為這個會影響到就是他們一直在講延宕延宕但反而我們現在在做的事情就是在製造延宕這個對我們的國防一定是重大的影響而且如果說我們延宕的時間太長如果今天超過半年甚至超過一年我們這些總預算都沒有辦法審查的話"},{"start":6839.54,"end":6851.754,"text":"到最後我說真的已經沒有廠商要來跟台灣做生意了根本就連不要講國防自主我們連購買都已經有問題了更何況是國防自主那這一件事情如果今天我們軍購來得及我們國防的產業發展來得及"},{"start":6855.317,"end":6882.087,"text":"這個製造的國內的就業機會是站在那邊等著我們所以這個延宕已經不只是說對我們的國防的影響它會對我們整個經濟的產業現在很多人要找工作的時候結果他以為有這樣的工作結果卻沒有為什麼就因為什麼東西都擋在程序委員會所以我覺得這件事情我真的已經快受不了了就是說沒有任何的理由剛剛講的所有的理由剛剛不管哪一個委員他們對哪一件事情質疑"},{"start":6882.907,"end":6906.087,"text":"不就是應該坐在這邊質疑嗎就是坐在這邊討論不就了結了嗎為什麼程序委員會是連討論都不能夠討論程序委員會是單純舉手程序委員會我要來跟國人說明程序委員會今天要審的是什麼比如說我今天提了一個案子我這個案子比如說我今天連署有沒有15個人我如果要修法我的修法理由有沒有寫這個叫做刑事審查"},{"start":6907.368,"end":6928.646,"text":"這個刑事審查沒問題了程序委員會就要排案了然後院會一讀之後就應該要進入到委員會程序委員會沒有幾個國防外交的委員啊那憑什麼程序委員會要來決定今天這個條例要怎麼寫這個不就是在實質的去阻擋了行政院的提案權以及我們一般立法委員的提案權"},{"start":6929.807,"end":6958.14,"text":"接下來今天或明天應該就會發生他們就要自己提相關的這個軍購的條例我覺得立法委員自己去軍購我就是前所未聞啦如果今天立法委員自己做軍購自己提了條例然後要讓我們的國防開空窗我覺得我們應該立場非常的嚴正這不是我們要的軍購我們要的軍購是完整的軍購不是拼多多的軍購不是淘寶式的軍購好 那我是遵守時間的人所以我先講到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":6959.301,"end":6965.904,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台諮詢主席麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":6991.741,"end":7002.107,"text":"另外我們國軍負責對中國解放軍好情報研析各方面的應該是我們秦次士吧謝總將請請秦次士"},{"start":7008.527,"end":7031.66,"text":"好 兩位好我第一個想請教目前中國解放軍發生了外媒甚至於某些中國自己的智庫都形容叫做史達林式的PurgePurge就是大清洗這個在史達林時代曾經發生過那在目前看起來已知的訊息從2022年中國二十大"},{"start":7034.69,"end":7063.032,"text":"以後已經有30個上將他們有40個現役上將組成的一個決策體系但從2022年中共二十大以後有18名下台12個到現在行蹤不明所以有30位那還沒有算到中將少將的人數聽說那個下台或失蹤人數加起來可以組一個連然後另外呢在最近這一個張又俠跟劉振利"},{"start":7064.181,"end":7073.844,"text":"其實張又俠的角色有點像解放軍的國防部長他們體制跟我們不太一樣軍委會主席是習近平但是真正負責軍政的是張又俠軍令系統的他們的聯參長也就是參謀總長劉正麗兩個也下來"},{"start":7080.026,"end":7095.131,"text":"所以這個狀況我第一個先請教我們部裡面或者我們情事室這裡事情有沒有這樣的狀況那目前你們對解放軍發生這樣的事情你們有什麼樣的判斷"},{"start":7097.813,"end":7123.1,"text":"委員好跟委員報告我們一直都非常關注有關於中共特別是解放軍高層的人事異動那這個是我們持續在做掌握的但是我們也同時間要跟委員報告我們長時間的觀察解放軍對特別是中共對我們的軍事威脅並沒有因為這些高級官員的高級將領的異動而有所鬆懈所以我們也不應該趁這個機會跟委員報告說我們也不會"},{"start":7127.341,"end":7142.972,"text":"因為這些情況這不僅不應該鬆懈風險有沒有增加的確存在有一定的風險在這是要跟委員特別做報告我今天為什麼第一題先談這個其實我們所有的軍購我相信我們在這個會議室裡面不管"},{"start":7145.125,"end":7172.426,"text":"是政黨的立法委員或者是國家的國軍我們大家都理解一個國家為什麼需要國防我們要保護自己的國家有外敵嘛台灣的國防為什麼困難因為我們在國際的現實上不是買方市場我們不是可以去德國萊茵金屬問一問拿來跟美國的哪個公司比一比這個我喜歡 然後來殺價不是台灣要取得軍事裝備何其困難"},{"start":7174.451,"end":7199.174,"text":"什麼時候我們現在對外採購第一流的現代化裝備困難已經降到很低了反而是在我們國內自己不給你買當然嘴巴不會這樣講啦用了很多程序上很多的藉口把連討論的機會都不給你不管是年度的預算或者是特別預算的條例那回到我們的威脅也就是中國是我們台灣唯一的武力威脅"},{"start":7200.714,"end":7227.759,"text":"我們現在看起來我看到一個形容詞尤其華爾街日報今天揭露說張又俠他們這幾個下來有涉及泄密不管他講的是真的假的他涉及核泄密相關被拉下來那這會產生什麼情形呢第一個我們不質疑習近平對解放軍的控制力他等於達到史無前例的強大控制力整個解放軍他一個人控制"},{"start":7228.379,"end":7242.812,"text":"因為40個上將組成的決策體系現在只剩下他自己跟他剛剛拉上來的張聲明兩個那這很危險喔也就是在解放軍的決策體系裡面沒有人敢說NO了因為說NO的人都不見了"},{"start":7244.059,"end":7269.015,"text":"全部變Yes Man變馬屁派不管什麼派現在變馬屁派上面講什麼都要照做所以謹慎理性分析的基礎不在了而只剩下習近平的意志第二個風險是什麼美方判斷本來想要跟共軍建立相關的所謂的軍事談話的機制現在誰敢啊你跟美國日本軍事對話建立什麼這個熱線電話"},{"start":7272.637,"end":7292.905,"text":"有可能就拿來當成為所謂的成為外國間諜的藉口兩天就不見全家都不見還不自己不見所以這一個緩衝機制目前要建立極其困難那他們另外一部分呢因為指揮鏈坦白講參謀總長啦或者是軍政體系這幾十個上將指揮鏈確實有暫時斷鏈然後下面的人"},{"start":7296.607,"end":7318.617,"text":"要面對說你到底是張又俠派的還是哪一派的 擔心被清洗所以解放軍大概會有一段時間不敢妄動我講的不是對台灣 是對他們自己內部不敢做動作 怕引起猜忌甚至於可能我現在對這個長官效忠明天他被抓了 下台了 我可能連株 株連一起倒楣這是另外一個氛圍"},{"start":7319.457,"end":7336.501,"text":"所以不敢建立緩衝機制內部決策單一化習近平一個人說了算大概是現在狀況所以我看到一個形容詞中國解放軍現在是一個大腦神經受損但是肌肉仍然強大的巨人而這個巨人可能因為錯誤的判斷隨時揮舞棒子"},{"start":7339.582,"end":7366.722,"text":"那周邊國家不是只有我們周邊國家可能都要小心也就是過去也許擦槍走火的機會比較低現在因為是一個肌肉強大的巨人但指揮鏈呢剩下效忠 剩下馬屁派所以有可能擦槍走火的機會會升高所以我請教部長面對這個局勢部裡面對於新狀況的應處有沒有什麼樣的研析或者新的一個做法"},{"start":7367.81,"end":7388.705,"text":"我想第一點還是要重申 中共是不放棄武力犯台那習近平對這個的意志也始終似乎沒有顯示他有動搖所以對於中共可能武力犯台這件事情 國軍不敢絲毫鬆懈 這是第一點"},{"start":7389.807,"end":7408.07,"text":"第二點對中共的高層的這些這種大規模的一個清洗的作為所影響的他們在這個指揮鏈的體系上面之後如何持續就是說如何來這樣運作因為過去就是委員所講的"},{"start":7409.071,"end":7435.605,"text":"其實都是以軍委負責嘛軍委 軍委會會負責 他們是以黨領軍 對那這一次裡面他有特別提到說踐踏這個軍委的這個責任制 軍委主席的責任制這句話我們也要持續的密註來觀察這句話看起來是軍委會副主席侵犯了主席的權利那簡單來講就是指控張又俠對習近平叛變嘛"},{"start":7436.482,"end":7450.259,"text":"那我們要持續的關注以中央軍委來負責整個整個中國這個有關這個軍事所有相關的這個決策跟指揮的這個部分的影響"},{"start":7451.755,"end":7475.845,"text":"第二個要持續來關注第三個當然就是說對我們的威脅我們的要關注的是它的預警增後這樣的預警增後不只是只有軍事面所有非軍事面我們都要持續那這個不只是我們根據我們自己的這個相關的系統那也要跟友盟情誌來加以進行交換我們會來持續的祕訣我是建議給部裡面做參考第一個"},{"start":7480.851,"end":7495.728,"text":"當然這是一個危險但也是一個機會也就是它這一個指揮鏈的清洗過程會讓它的目前整個指揮體系會有一個兩到三年的盤整期這個是一個非常珍貴的資源就是我們最需要的時間"},{"start":7497.61,"end":7510.869,"text":"投資和平 投資國防的珍貴時間所以這個時間很稀有 要珍惜第二個 情報跟心理層面我不知道我們部裡面現在反情報作戰 反認知作戰"},{"start":7512.131,"end":7532.892,"text":"中共內部我們對那邊相關的心理作戰這個要提升情報的收集跟有盟的情報的交換第三個是我們該做的行政跟立法我覺得應該合作要在這個時候穩定的不管是國防預算或者是國安相關的法律應該在這個機會穩健的把它執行出來有什麼意見溝通"},{"start":7535.015,"end":7555.314,"text":"認為該修該三該怎麼處理該怎麼處理但是絕對不是停滯不前因為時間很稀有最後一個是第一島鏈的協同尤其川普新公佈的美國戰略其實是希望尤其在印太地區第一島鏈的國家要承擔自己該做partner的parts你的自己的部分所以跟"},{"start":7556.61,"end":7576.585,"text":"日本、澳洲甚至於南方的菲律賓怎麼樣協同從情報交換從區域的單一戰區甚至於更進一步的單一執管這個部分我覺得應該是一個重點而對於異常現象特別是以往還有這些剎車皮現在剎車皮不在了對於這種可能擦槍走火的樣態的映出"},{"start":7578.266,"end":7598.909,"text":"可能我建議部裡面跟參謀本部要去思考一些因應方式可能要跟著這個中國的政經局勢變化來做判斷這是我給部裡面跟參謀本部的建議那我最後請教兩個問題我們現在國防預算坦白講已經五個多月了年度預算國防預算也沒辦法審查"},{"start":7600.407,"end":7624.854,"text":"部長這個組黨連副委都沒有辦法對於我們台灣安全的傷害你們簡單說一下或者舉幾個明確的例子比方說我所謂的傷害是戰力提升延遲戰力維持不足甚至於戰力維持不足可能有一些新增預算不足的時候他沒辦法支應我們新型態的需求油料彈藥然後還有不可逆的傷害這個最重要會被這個時間錯過了"},{"start":7626.775,"end":7633.567,"text":"我們原來要籌措的 原來要做的錯過以後就很難第一個就年度預算的部分部長這邊有沒有什麼說明"},{"start":7634.987,"end":7660.52,"text":"我想我們之前已經有說過了最主要就是說他除了新增計畫之外他還有一個就是說今年的金額要是比去年多的這個部分也都不行來致用那所以我想我們海馬市標槍次增還有戰術數據鏈路及連戰指管系統維護還有這些保護戰鬥人員的這些各裝等等還有包括F16的後續的訓練"},{"start":7662.341,"end":7685.673,"text":"然後還有這些官兵的這些基層部隊的運作跟提升官兵的照顧只要比去年多的這個金額的項目都不能夠來執行所以對於這個我們提升一個我們的嚇阻戰力還有我們的不對稱戰力還有保護戰鬥人員跟照顧官兵都會有相當大的影響那油料跟彈藥呢 有沒有影響油料跟彈藥的"},{"start":7689.105,"end":7716.404,"text":"油料影響是多少 這個足跡局啊對 因為有 這屬於新增預算的部分嘛是 油料115年比114年度增加4億元的部分我們也會被管制所以那個就沒辦法控制啊是的 沒辦法控制所以變成我們的官兵弟兄姊妹他的油料 他相關的需求該練那些受影響那年度預算的話 我們現在一併問啦包含我們特別預算 特別條例當然後面還有編列預算詳細的細節啦 各項目啦"},{"start":7719.502,"end":7741.588,"text":"有沒有那個錯過了可能未來就很難而對國家的安全戰力影響非常大的當然屬於機密系項目的你不用明說啦但是有沒有不可逆的傷害剛剛剛剛有提到那個這請范國威先生來講那委員軍購案那個部分我剛剛已經做過說明了就是因為我們幾個已經撕毀國會了發達書即將到達它是有期限的"},{"start":7742.372,"end":7766.458,"text":"那第二個部分衝擊最大的就是川普之前公布 最近公布在那八項裡面嘛前面已經是五項軍購案他的發價書應該在近期之內就會拿到他的效期是45天那過期會怎麼樣過期就要看跟美方談判之後他們願不願意再延長所以他不延長就沒了如果美方基於他的後續生產或是其他國家的訂單不願意延長那個項目可能就得重新再來"},{"start":7767.595,"end":7783.321,"text":"這是第一個第二個我們其中二十餘萬架的小型無人機的部分是希望能夠帶動國內的廠商進行初步的投資所以軍備局前面已經做了兩年期四萬五千多架的一個招商說明"},{"start":7784.261,"end":7806.944,"text":"那如果說我們現在在這個時候把這個案子往後delay的話恐怕廠商他就會觀望因為畢竟他得做大量的投資才有辦法建一個幾萬架無人機的產線那如果說他不投資的話後續就算我們預算過了那一樣會耽誤到那個時間這個是影響到我們的戰備重生嘛我們的軍需戰備需求"},{"start":7808.171,"end":7826.94,"text":"另外一個項目軍需彈背的需求就是我們希望籌購的急缺彈藥的項目以及軍備產線的擴張的這個部分一個是我們現在沒有產線要買一個是建立我們以後自給自足的產線第一個是做不夠的第二個是做不出來的所以這個也會因為這些預算延宕錯過了可能就很難了"},{"start":7830.967,"end":7858.777,"text":"好 所以我們今天看中國對台灣威脅的狀況現在新的狀況那我們希望國軍大家辛苦了那相關的預算 條例我還是那句話國防安全其實沒有黨派的分別我們都住在這裡2300萬人都面對一樣的生活 一樣的情況是不是能復偽 儘快復偽有什麼意見占多數的總是可以表決可以刪除 可以檢列但是一直擋在程序委員會外面"},{"start":7860.578,"end":7870.381,"text":"其實最後受害是我們整體國人跟國家好謝謝謝謝接下來請賴世保委員上台質詢不好意思我們也先宣告等一下徐巧欣委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":7894.423,"end":7916.886,"text":"是 賴委員我請教部長你剛才你對我已經否認了就是說台美要成立聯合火力協調中心外面感覺就是美軍要來兼軍你說絕對不是兼軍可是你們還內部高掛一個電子鐘倒數2027年的1月1日就是說"},{"start":7918.027,"end":7920.368,"text":"老公要打台灣就掛在那裡而且美方的智庫宣稱中共有人力來打台灣在那個時候可是紅帝還說另外的智庫說不會打台灣2027我們現在看起來的感覺就是都在政府說的現在為了一定澳洲就說很緊張的2027要打所以你看我要成立聯合火力協調中心然後另外一方面"},{"start":7944.5,"end":7948.501,"text":"賴清德總統會講說 我選舉的時候說只有我當選 兩岸最和平 不會戰爭就是都知道你說的就對了你要不要對這個事情來講一下你這個是不是準備打仗了2027年1月1日倒數你這個聯合協調中心即便美軍不是建軍好了但是是不是你掛在那裡就準備這一天要打仗了 是不是"},{"start":7971.716,"end":7991.994,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們要以2027作為我們有一個高戰備的能力這是我們國軍的一個目標那這個跟來研判說中共是不是一定會在2027年對我們採取前面入侵的這些軍事行動我想不必然有等號的關係但是無論如何我們都要"},{"start":7994.084,"end":8010.152,"text":"就是說我們透過不斷的這個實戰化的訓練所以等於戰備準備說我準備你那天來打你不打最好是這個意思我們一定要形成嚇阻我們一定要形成嚇阻嘛2027那就明年1月1日喔剩不到一年喔"},{"start":8010.732,"end":8014.655,"text":"時間蠻緊湊的我想2027年是一個點但是不會是2027年之後我們就不需要去籌購新式的武器也不需要去維持這個高戰備能力我們2027年我們有一個這樣子的一個要形成高戰備的能力但這樣的高戰備能力我們從這個點來看呢事實上還有待進一步提升的地方我們會持續來進進"},{"start":8039.192,"end":8042.976,"text":"你剛剛一直提到高戰力我們的防衛任性我們的後備戰力等等都要持續的講話你剛才提到的高戰力高戰備能力一樣的意思高戰備能力高戰備能力有沒有包括類似以色列的那種所謂的鐵穹系統有沒有"},{"start":8060.761,"end":8089.64,"text":"我想我們已經在對外在說明就是說台灣之盾就是鐵球沒有我想每一個的系統不能夠做完全等號的類比但是我們要發展一個我們的台灣之盾來形成一個多層次的一個防禦在防空的部分這個是我們努力的方向防空很重要空戰很重要請問那個已經講很久了"},{"start":8091.261,"end":8113.288,"text":"F16V到底今年可不可以交捐F16V我想這個是不是請空軍來回答今年能不能交捐目前是正在進行非策的階段這要看整個非策的結果如果順利呢順利的話今年當然可以交捐今年什麼時候第一季 第二季 第三季 第四季還是要看它整個測試的進度"},{"start":8114.775,"end":8140.501,"text":"我看去年的報導是說今年的第三劑最有可能我們叫Most likely最有可能今年第三劑如果說進度都正常的話那我們希望在今年第三劑能夠交幾架這個都還沒辦法確定不是交66吧66架這個基本上是不太可能不太可能40架咧這個我沒辦法去做一個預測交一半種可以吧"},{"start":8142.318,"end":8151.824,"text":"托這麼久了所以說他出來的時間跟他後續的產能這個是有直接相關所以目前所以你一估只加一價"},{"start":8153.565,"end":8177.075,"text":"我想這樣的委員就是說我們現在在進行各項的一個測試他第一架測試如果完成以後以之後的測試應該就會比較簡單那在線的組裝也有幾十架我上次已經報告有56架所以我們預期今年如果測試順利的話我們會有相應的數量來獲得交付那我們現在沒有辦法跟委員確定到底有多"},{"start":8177.515,"end":8187.161,"text":"你剛才講我就幫你解讀我聽你講你剛講的意思就是只要那第一架測試成功大概就有56架第三季膠是不是這樣子我沒有辦法說最樂觀最樂觀就會有56架的一個膠壺我只能夠說我都做球給你了你不敢接最樂觀啦也不要你"},{"start":8196.266,"end":8198.327,"text":"我們希望推估就是說如果完成首次的飛行那麼繼續按計畫來執行飛車的作業之後呢順利的這個進行的話呢會在這個115年會有這個飛機飛盤那因為大家在飛機飛盤之前他還會有相關的一些在美的訓練的項目所以還是要拖一陣子了可能要到明年去了"},{"start":8222.583,"end":8234.477,"text":"那個你的 再一次大家討論的1.25兆特別預算現在確定的是美國要均售我們3500億我們在國內買3000億我這種講法對吧"},{"start":8241.345,"end":8269.596,"text":"那個數字可能有點問題那個3500是含了三個我們公務預算的案子也就是保修那個案子軍購五項裡面大概是2900億左右我們算零頭啦 3000億 美國3000億是不是跟委員報告 因為我們在上個禮拜已經做了機密專報全部的內容都在那個機密專報裡面沒有 我現在從不機密的角度嘛我們今天公開的大家想知道啊 對不對因為我為什麼提這個東西"},{"start":8271.177,"end":8285.595,"text":"那我就問你一個很籠統的你一定這個打都不會有心理壓力的1.25兆是不是都是武器的採購是不是不是1.25兆裡面它區分成"},{"start":8287,"end":8304.306,"text":"那個七類然後七類裡面其中第六項的部分是提升整體軍備量能的部分它就有包含採購武器彈藥跟籌建我們的軍備產能以及提升我們的主角能力有沒有包括"},{"start":8305.748,"end":8334.847,"text":"operating under maintenance的錢有沒有維修費用有沒有發問委員作業維持費的這個部分有沒有有沒有我們有在軍購以及商購的案子裡面我們都會納到初級備份料件跟接裝等相關的支出那後續等到案子執行之後我們會納入年度公務預算裡面來編列作業費跟訓練費不要忘了大家都知道我們以最喜歡講life cycle"},{"start":8336.368,"end":8357.833,"text":"叫做壽期 壽命的壽期間Life Cycle Cost那麼事實上除了武器採購還要後續的維修費用作業維護費用都要加進來那個大概是我查了一下大概是一到兩倍這個錢你們沒有算進來包委員這個應該"},{"start":8361.155,"end":8387.301,"text":"比一到兩倍這種數字要複雜得多我們舉例來說彈藥類的東西它只有在後續的時候不不不我講那大武器啦比如說F16V啦或者比如說這個海馬仕啦之類的啦大武器的部分您舉到海馬仕的部分海馬仕的部分如果是以我們目前我們的規劃十年期做一次性能提升二十年期做一次延壽的話如果是按照這個規劃基本上是處於1.25到1.33左右"},{"start":8389.321,"end":8415.631,"text":"好但是如果是像戰機這種項目他就會稍微高一點所以每個項目他都不同那這個錢也變在哪裡對這個我們在這個錢要變到哪裡我問你啊特別預算還是年度預算就是問題是個年度預算年度預算跟委員報告他剛剛站規師已經說明了軍事投資的這個部分都會有新增的就新增武器的裝備會有一個初次備份料增跟接裝訓練那在這個"},{"start":8418.412,"end":8428.334,"text":"武器裝備部署之後 維保跟訓練所需就會放在這個作業維持會裡面兩個會做一個無縫的接軌這樣也就是說假如我們買的跟美國買3000億跟台灣自己買3000億如果加起來6000億事實上不止啦你們講的不止啦可能其他的6000億可能是商售什麼之類的"},{"start":8442.677,"end":8446.82,"text":"我們就用以保守六千億可能你們還是要編六千億的預算這個作為維護費用啊如果十年一年就六百億啊就加進來啦我這樣講對不對幫委員您看到我們剛剛智慧國會的裡面我們有很多是彈藥的像托式 標槍那個金額很少啦那個金額很少啦你不要講他老是講彈藥我跟你講是大武器的啊新式武器有它的作業維持會的需求那我們就"},{"start":8471.798,"end":8485.57,"text":"新式武器進來之後那些不合時宜的這個舊的武器會把它汰除因此也會減少這部分的作業維持費這個就是以新換舊的情況之下作業維持費會做一個適當的調整我就是要強調1.25兆不是1.25兆ONLY要乘以2其他的1.25兆是放在年度預算不管你分攤10年或者20年基本上是各年都要分攤的我要強調這一點"},{"start":8499.608,"end":8511.373,"text":"像我們海馬仕的話就會提到一些舊式的這些砲的裝備那這些裝備的作業維持會因此就可以減少1.3倍 1.5倍 有的到2倍啦 都有謝謝 接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8527.095,"end":8530.08,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請顧立雄 顧部長請顧部長徐委員好"},{"start":8538.132,"end":8560.195,"text":"部長好 我們今天看到這個報告裡面也有提到就是在公開資訊的部分那接下來除了美方有發這個發價書的這個無人機之外呢那我們自己還有包含是20多萬台嘛那所以說接下來這個在整個無人機來說的話那確實是我們在整體建軍思維當中不對稱作戰裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":8560.855,"end":8585.118,"text":"所以我們也非常關心就是說我們有未來籌措了無人機那當然也要有足夠的資源然後呢這個有人員的培訓有人來操作這個無人機因為無人機它當然是一個比較屬於不對稱作戰的一個方向那麼呢但是它還是需要有國軍來做專業的操作它才能將它的這個效益極大化"},{"start":8585.718,"end":8612.27,"text":"但是我們要問一下這個無人機大隊我們到底相關配套準備好了沒我們先來看一下整個戰鬥部隊的加級歷程是什麼樣的在第114年的4月的時候先是提出了待遇提升相關的這個案子那裡面就針對戰鬥部隊加級第一級5000提高到12000這個部分我們是同意的"},{"start":8612.99,"end":8639.947,"text":"那麼在114年8月的時候宣布要無人機部隊成為戰鬥部隊然後把無人機的戰鬥家級送到仁總去做核備而114年的9月無人機的部隊就成立了那過程當中還有遇到這個有關於追加預算的部分關於戰鬥家級的追加預算立法院也都在這59億當中給予通過了"},{"start":8642.208,"end":8663.494,"text":"那但是到現在115年2月目前很多的官兵都在投訴無人機的戰鬥加急是沒有發下來的先前有不同黨派的立法委員質詢過部長您有回答是因為人事行政總署沒有核定該項加急會再催促但是"},{"start":8663.954,"end":8675.802,"text":"我想問現在已經是年底了那麼呢也是我們這個會期裡面最後一次的這個跟國防部的質詢那跟人種催促到現在的進度"},{"start":8676.966,"end":8694.151,"text":"有答案了嗎時間表是什麼跟委員報告就是說我們在去年8月26號懲罰行政院那人總就針對我們這個新政的無人機部隊因為我們這個組織變裝調整之後呢那麼無人機的這個部隊的這個"},{"start":8696.756,"end":8722.479,"text":"這個等於是說他的勤務的內容應該是這樣講就勤務的內容他需要我們做一個說明那我問一下那你們原本預計人力配置到位的時間點是什麼時候啊就是說你看喔你9月1號成立無人機部隊嘛你就是有個成立嘛那你們怎麼你們是怎麼預計這個人力配置到位的時間點還有到目前為止我們所謂無人機戰鬥部隊裡面有多少人啊"},{"start":8723.988,"end":8741.086,"text":"我想應該跟委員能夠講就是說我們大概有31個單位那我們如果核定之後我們會追補你不要講追補欠錢沒有在欠過年的很快要過年了好不好現在9月1號到現在過了多久了5個月了嘛對不對"},{"start":8741.727,"end":8757.547,"text":"理論上來說你無人機戰鬥部隊成立之後你就應該要有加給但是礙於人事總署這邊還沒有核定所以沒有給錢所以從9月1號到現在已經五個月了欸以第一級戰家一萬二來算的話你積欠每一個人已經積欠六萬了"},{"start":8758.388,"end":8773.354,"text":"還要再往後積欠嗎我當然知道得追捕啊如果沒追捕那還得了那對我們的國軍弟兄來說會不會太不公平我知道會追捕但不能一直用這樣子的想法來面對這件事情我要強調的是這個點因為你看這個時間上面非常的清楚你在8月的時候已經送人種核備到現在是115年的2月然後也沒有所謂的沒有錢的問題59億的戰鬥家籍我們在追加預算的時候也給你辦了"},{"start":8786.42,"end":8813.491,"text":"那現在變成是變成是我告訴你喔你可以看到在115年2月份的時候會出現一個狀況就是因為你們積欠戰鬥家籍的關係我們看下兩張投影片在1月的時候的薪水就是前一個月12月核定的裡面的戰家是用舊單位的名義去發的所以2月心想當中呢他要先被追繳扣除之後等人總合過新單位的戰家才回溯播放"},{"start":8814.051,"end":8830.595,"text":"但是呢二月的戰價也沒有合過再加上你被追繳的被追繳扣掉的一萬兩千二的第一級戰家一來一往是差了多少錢啊一個人差了兩萬四千塊錢所以這個數字是很大的二等兵最低薪資41350來算的話就佔他的總待遇的六成對基層官兵來說是很多的"},{"start":8837.117,"end":8855.835,"text":"受到官兵的影響人數光是海軍就兩百多光是陸軍四百多至少有六百名的是官兵他因為這樣的關係他在整個這幾個月過程當中他會覺得受到國防部的欺騙我們回到第一張投影片可以再看一下這個過程我現在幾個問題要問剛剛的數據我其實都講解得很清楚了"},{"start":8860.64,"end":8876.637,"text":"我要問的是到底什麼時候才能夠核備完畢才能夠回溯發放一定要簽到過年嗎不用吧能不能夠承諾在過年前把這些錢回溯給我們的無人機大隊的軍人朋友啊"},{"start":8877.459,"end":8895.175,"text":"我想我會跟這個人事長來溝通然後進訴那你溝通到底有沒有效呢因為這個部長你應該知道不是我第一個在這邊質詢的先前不同黨派的委員們也在這邊都在問都在替我們的國軍來請命可是似乎沒有用"},{"start":8895.715,"end":8911.629,"text":"如果他上次別的委員在質詢的時候我也在台下聽我也覺得他問得很好所以呢我又等了一陣子之後發現怎麼還是沒有核備過怎麼還是沒有發然後現在已經要準備二月要過年了我不希望國防部欠我們軍人錢欠過年這個對這個我們國人來說是一個很重要的時間點你欠他的大概六萬多塊錢還來講好了"},{"start":8920.057,"end":8942.324,"text":"那人家過年要發紅包的呀要回家這個陪爸爸媽媽的呀然後結果錢全部都壓在國防部裡面的應該屬於他的權益都沒有給他這樣子說得過去嗎我們是這樣子課待我們自己的官兵弟兄嗎我知道以國防部長您的角色來說您一定也是希望盡快核被通過的但是我要問的是到底我們跟任總監出了什麼問題可以這樣子連續五個月"},{"start":8946.245,"end":8964.438,"text":"都沒有辦法有進展然後這麼多的委員不分黨派的催促了都沒有辦法有進展那到底您說要去溝通那為什麼都不能溝通成功呢我想我們會來我本人會跟任總來做一個說明你要什麼時候再去跟他就是"},{"start":8965.359,"end":8974.246,"text":"聊一聊啊我有一個要求就是說可不可以不要欠過年啊因為你們現在是一個欠錢狀態我已經有約了日期了可不可以跟他說不要欠錢欠過年因為我真的很不希望國防部發600多個基層的官兵然後這麼多錢佔他的薪資裡面的六成然後呢你欠了他五個月然後要欠到過年我覺得這真正不對這真的不對"},{"start":8994.022,"end":9008.902,"text":"就是於情於理 於法來說都不對所以就是我希望這邊真的跟人種不是只是說我溝通溝通好幾次了都沒有什麼很具體的成效這個是讓我覺得很訝異的事情既然無人機大隊我們這麼重視"},{"start":9010.524,"end":9028.399,"text":"然後我們接下來的預算包含特別預算要籌貨這麼多的無人機代表在我們的建軍上面來說他是很重要的一環那我們在人員培育人員的薪資人員的待遇的發放上面就要合情合理合法這樣才是一個完整的戰鬥部隊"},{"start":9030.05,"end":9046.916,"text":"我想我這邊對當然這些無人機大隊的這個成員我當然對於我們現在還沒有辦法發放表示歉意那我想我會積極的向人總來爭取然後讓他能夠追溯至部隊邊桩合併來生效"},{"start":9048.857,"end":9074.15,"text":"那最後我有一個要給您看一下就是你們這個軍隊裡面不能用這種造謠的方式來處理這個事情像部長您剛剛態度很好我非常的肯定因為我們做到這樣子沒有對得起這個我們基層軍官兵的事情那是一個事實能夠調整能夠改善盡快去改善這是我們的希望那但是呢絕對不應該像這樣子我們的防防部"},{"start":9077.051,"end":9103.281,"text":"在這個是1月22號禮拜四11點半的時候有軍官在問為什麼的錢都下不來結果得到的回復叫做什麼呢說因為戰鬥加急的預算卡在立法院不對喔9月的時候就應該發了9月10月11月12月的這4個月的官長這4個月的戰鬥加急我們是不是有在追加預算的時候追了59億"},{"start":9104.682,"end":9131.313,"text":"怎麼會是沒有給錢呢如果您要跟我們去談說像今天您也當然有些氣氛就是有關於總預算或者是後續的這個特別預算等等的那您針對這個部分我覺得我們有討論的空間但我今天討論的是從九月份無人機大隊成立一路到現在是十二月份九十十一十二這四個月的戰鬥加急立法院有追加預算五十九億過的"},{"start":9132.734,"end":9158.21,"text":"是因為卡在人種的關係不是因為卡在立法院的關係彭防部怎麼可以跟我們的軍人這樣子去做造謠呢不對吧跟委員報告這個五四九一應該是跟這個這個部分比較沒有關係因為這個部分應該是指我們那個之前調整的各項的五項那個加級的部分裡面有這樣的加級啊沒有嗎我們"},{"start":9162.037,"end":9173.911,"text":"裡面有戰鬥加急嘛對對對但是對這一個這一個部分跟無人機的大隊的這個部分沒有沒有我想我不是要為這個討論我想我們主要要說明的就是說我們會盡力跟人種來爭取因為是有戰鬥加急的追加預算送進來的"},{"start":9182.321,"end":9191.029,"text":"但是因為人種沒有核定所以沒有辦法發放這個才是事件的原貌所以說呢如果今天有國軍弟兄來詢問他的長官說為什麼要追繳我的原本的之後才要還我為什麼我領不到的時候這個第四點說是因為"},{"start":9200.998,"end":9225.437,"text":"戰鬥加急預算卡在立法院這個說法其實不是不是正確的我覺得不能用這種方式去欺騙我們國軍弟兄這樣是不好的所以我們正本清源我們還是希望就是針對九十十一十二這四個月的部分那能夠盡快的跟人總這邊來核定之後真的欠錢不要欠過年在年前看能不能夠還給我們的國軍弟兄至於"},{"start":9228.599,"end":9257.294,"text":"今年度的就2026年的我相信接下來到時候審定總預算的時候我們會全力來支持這個是沒有問題的我們一向都非常支持軍人的待遇能夠提高那但是我剛講的這個去年的部分有欠人家的趕快還這個真的是要再一次的跟部長代表我們國軍弟兄跟部長請命是不是在過年之前可以有一個結果是不是可以給我一個最後簡短的回覆好不好"},{"start":9257.874,"end":9274.881,"text":"我是主席局局長針對剛剛委員有提到的我這邊回應兩點第一個有關說戰鬥加急預算目前卡在立法院這邊我要做個說明就是所有的這個戰鬥加急跟心想它都是屬於人事費的法定義務支出它並不會因為立法院沒有審議通過而不能發"},{"start":9275.481,"end":9300.728,"text":"所以這部分我這邊要做個說明第二點有關剛剛委員提到說是不是1月份已經有發的部分要去做一個追扣那我分兩點來說明如果這個單位它是新編程的當然要依照新編程之後才能發如果這個單位是因為更閒或者是組織調整移編造成它的名稱或它任務有所調整的話那這部分當然要等到行政院人總這邊核定之後才能做發"},{"start":9302.769,"end":9326.648,"text":"1月份已經發了部分我們會等到行政院核定說確定他不能發我們才會去做追補扣如果說他還可以發那我們不會先把他你說到什麼時候決定就看行政院什麼時候能夠核下來剛剛部長已經有講有跟任總這邊來協調一個時間我們會做這個密切的一個溝通謝謝那我們是部長最後回覆一下就是有沒有機會在過年之前可以把這個錢再還給大家拖了五個月了"},{"start":9327.228,"end":9333.972,"text":"破了五個月了啦跟人事長約好我想我會盡力來表達你不能只是盡力來表達你要站在國軍弟兄的立場用力表達好不好在這件事情上我對你是全力相挺如果今天說那個他們再有什麼意見的話那我去找他吵架也可以"},{"start":9344.699,"end":9350.244,"text":"不能欠人家薪水欠成這個樣子我們國軍弟兄在外面面對中共的軍演大家辛苦成這樣演習的時長越拉越長然後這麼辛苦然後我們要編無人機的大隊然後我們在各軍種裡面我們都在找人一起加入這個無人機大隊大家知道有戰家之後也都加入了結果進來之後發現錢怎麼沒給"},{"start":9363.875,"end":9379.304,"text":"這真的不好所以有需要我們一起支持的部分我一定全力支持但是也希望部長在這裡要跟任總這邊講真的在過年之前不要讓大家沒有辦法過一個好年因為為什麼我在這邊我花這麼多時間講這個事情是我在過年"},{"start":9379.904,"end":9395.336,"text":"之前也不會再跟您在這邊有質詢的機會了所以話一定要講清楚所以也我相信國訓弟兄如果看了質詢也聽到您剛有表達這個歉意也知道您會去溝通那希望能夠有一個順利的好的結果謝謝部長謝謝我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9756.468,"end":9766.072,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請部長跟情報相關的所有官員"},{"start":9786.058,"end":9786.619,"text":"謝謝 請顧部長還有情報相關"},{"start":9798.669,"end":9819.694,"text":"部長好部長我們簡單來先請教一下剛才我看王定文有問過但是我就直接比較直接了當的來問中共中央的經委副主席張又俠那他被依照他們說法是好嚴重的違反他們的法律那之後對台的這個中共軍對台的威脅性是提高還是降低你們怎麼看"},{"start":9821.636,"end":9850.161,"text":"您說對中共對台的威脅未來這一個因為他們的人是有激烈鬥爭那負責掌握軍事重權的這個張又俠那這個被說很違紀違法之後那被整肅之後接下來對台灣的不管是採取的這種戰略攻勢等等是會來越來越風險越高還是其實是降低因為他們沒有足夠的能力去執行軍事行動我想請教一下部長跟我們相關的情報單位怎麼看"},{"start":9850.481,"end":9869.957,"text":"第一點就是說中國的這個軍事的預算逐年升高對我們的軍事的威脅當然就是日益升高而且近來對於這些相關的這些不管是日常的這些侵擾或聯合戰備警巡乃至於針對性的軍援我想這些威脅都沒有在減少"},{"start":9871.918,"end":9894.827,"text":"我們判斷的應該是不會去因個別高層的落馬然後就來做一個結論性的一個意見而相關的是我們應該是盡量去收集軍事跟所有非軍事面的這些相關的這些威脅的徵喉然後來做一個研判"},{"start":9895.527,"end":9911.944,"text":"所以他們的高層官員的落馬與否跟他們實質上的能力反映在他們的能力上面或反映在他們的意圖上面不會有直接的關係我們是要依照他們的投資的資源以及他們的實質上面的軍事能力來去做判斷是這樣子講會比較正確嗎"},{"start":9914.368,"end":9940.481,"text":"對 事實上的軍事能力事實上相關如果說有任何的一個具體的威脅情勢存在那麼這些情勢的不是只限於軍事面包括社會軍事面所以中國的這些所有黨政軍的高層的這個異動以及相關他們的決策的一個狀況我想我們都是持續關注密駐的一個對象"},{"start":9941.089,"end":9953.167,"text":"那張又俠的這個事件我們事先有沒有我們各個情報局處有沒有接獲到相關的資訊 我想之前他們沒有出席的時候應該是上次"},{"start":9956.181,"end":9972.491,"text":"所以我想我們之前因為大家都會有看到一些相關他們一些狀況所以就會有做一些研判不過我想這些研判基於中國內部的不透明性我想我們都會等他們會公佈以後我們才預確定這樣子"},{"start":9972.571,"end":9998.778,"text":"好 謝謝原則上來講的話我們還是料敵的部分我們還是用最嚴格的標準來對待我們自己所以我們要來請教一下最近有兩件重大的事件第一個就是在中共無人機直接傳我們東沙東沙群島的領空是真正是領空因為它的據聞是從新聞上面來看到的話是超越我軍的射程對吧是這樣嗎 部長"},{"start":10000.238,"end":10017.894,"text":"我想我們已經有說明了就是說相關的這些在我們的這個防空射程之外這我們已經有說明了不過我想實際的狀況我覺得我們不宜在這個地方我們只是強調就是說我們就這些突發狀況"},{"start":10019.115,"end":10036.761,"text":"處置規定已經有律定相關的敵情應變的原則那這次他直接進入我國的領空那我們未來敵情應變我們是要採取什麼樣的做法採取警告採取直接因為他直接進入領空那如果我們的做法未來"},{"start":10038.121,"end":10054.448,"text":"決定敵情應變的方式是採取廣播警告之後那他會不會像我過去常常在講的他用緩慢的改變現狀的方式從東沙然後到甚至是到我們的甚至到澎湖假設他已經進入我國的領空我們也是要用廣播警告嗎讓他們廣播警告後飛離嗎"},{"start":10055.43,"end":10069.068,"text":"我想重點是在於這些有關漸進式的灰色地帶洗澡我們第一個就要運用我們的聯合警戒性能來全程掌握然後並且我們要視它威脅的形態威脅的程度來做應處"},{"start":10070.51,"end":10098.633,"text":"OK 好 那我只是因為我沒有要知道戰術上面的細節我也不需要知道那我只是要強調已經進入我國的領空了那這個可能就沒那麼灰色因為它進入我國的領空那未來如果不是在東沙不是在比較遙遠的離島而是在台澎 金馬裡面的台澎特別是台澎地區又不一樣了那我們的做法因應敵情 情間爭等等我想可能要思考一下"},{"start":10099.794,"end":10127.337,"text":"因為直接進入領空它不是什麼24海里以外那我們的做法可能要做一些調整我只是建議因為接下來就是不斷的會有這樣的事情得寸進尺然後慢慢的改變現狀然後讓它成為繼承事實最後再向國際做成他們的論述那就會對我國不管是國防甚至是外交上面的論述我們可能都會受到影響所以這個部分還是請部長可以回去看看檢討一下如果真的已經進入領空我們到底要"},{"start":10128.158,"end":10156.4,"text":"有沒有什麼其他的方式來去做應對不是說一定要做極弱的動作但是怎麼樣把它驅離甚至用物理的方式把它驅離甚至是擊損我想特別是針對他們是無人機不是有人載具是無人載具我認為風險上升的可能性不見得會那麼高但是還是要有動能的反應特別是針對無人機進入我國的領空的話"},{"start":10157.641,"end":10177.282,"text":"這只是我們的建議給國防部做參考因為有接到不同的聲音來自我國友邦的不同的智庫有針對這件事情來做出一些反應所以我覺得還是要向國防部來討論這樣的事項再來我們剛才提到除了無人載具之外"},{"start":10179.076,"end":10204.975,"text":"另外一個就是其實今天不少委員都有提到關於操作人員操作人員這個也是老話題操作人員裡面我認為是培養人員這也不是一天兩天的事情部長你知道去年台灣大學的一年的預算大概是多少錢嗎大概是256億對不起這個我就不用因為這個沒有什麼好考大概是256億我們的三軍官校加上國防大學大概是多少錢"},{"start":10206.58,"end":10226.096,"text":"去年大概是21億21億 總共21億那所以人均的水平來講的話我們剛有稍微算一算那這些台城清交這些頂大大概是70幾萬那我們的這些軍隊的這個培養我們未來的軍事人員的重鎮大概只有十幾萬嘛快要20左右 17 18萬"},{"start":10227.737,"end":10242.168,"text":"那我覺得未來我們在培養人才特別是我們要操作高度精密性的這種需要大量的資源投入來去學習的這一些軍備我們的軍備其實採購包含無人機無人機不是操作而已"},{"start":10242.728,"end":10269.542,"text":"未來的維修整補改造特別是在烏克蘭的戰場中我們看到它是不斷的需要調教的也就是說我們在訓練我們未來的工程人才我們的電機人才我們的電腦科學人才來講它是必須要很花時間跟資源在上面的所以我們1.25兆它是逐年編列我覺得它裡面特別是有很多急迫性的不管是彈藥不管是這一個最新的裝備的更新都是極端需要的但是在人才上面的培育上面"},{"start":10270.262,"end":10294.825,"text":"如果沒有人在裡面的話那我們到底要怎麼樣使用這些武器今年我們看到一些非常好的一些訊息就是1月1號我們成立陸軍無人機訓練中心我們就開始在把這個負責地面無人機的操作 實質培訓戰術 戰法的測速運用都有把它包含在裡面這就是很好的開始因為我們重視的是以人為本因為沒有人的話就沒有人會操作沒有人會改造 沒有人會維修"},{"start":10296.331,"end":10324.158,"text":"部長未來有沒有考慮說怎麼樣加強這個部分把這個我們投資在軍事人員上面的部分再把它提高有沒有這樣的規劃115年在軍事院校的部分現在是有提高從21億提高到25億多了4億多了那我想剛剛委員指教了應該我想就人均數就是說我們陸海空國防大學還有國防醫學大學還有包括"},{"start":10324.858,"end":10350.603,"text":"航院 陸軍專校 中正營學校 我想這些學生樹根我們花在他們身上的這個人均的這個預算我們可以來檢討大概只有三分之一到四分之一嘛因為我們剛才是跟國防部要的一些有很多的這個 您剛剛講到的這些訓練其實是有另外再透過我們相關的一些在進入部隊之後來進行這個培育比如說"},{"start":10351.563,"end":10367.734,"text":"我們的自動電軍我們可能也會花大筆的錢來培訓他我們這些無人機的這個部分我們現在成立無人機中心有這些無人機的中心我們所有的這些"},{"start":10368.774,"end":10395.674,"text":"設備也都是要來進行這些相關的人員訓練上的一個投資不然我們都知道我們也都肯定我講這個意思是說其實當你大專院校畢業之後研究所院校畢業之後你進入任何的民間企業私人公司也都會有這樣子的訓練這本來就會有那我們都理解那我們要求的是說未來把這些特別是因為我們現在可能要面臨的威脅是比較急迫性的時間性是比較趕的"},{"start":10396.474,"end":10414.437,"text":"所以我可能會比較直接的要求特別是在科學工程這個領域上面我們把它提高這個東西是很難就是大學過後你再去學那你再學習這些邏輯學習這一些基本的這些知識會有點我講會有點力不從心會比較慢一點所以這些地方我們先優先在這些上面"},{"start":10415.638,"end":10443.829,"text":"抱歉 我可能這樣講在文科上面我自己是讀文科的我們可能資源可能先不用放那麼多因為我們現在面臨的是急迫性的所以工程學上面的就是任何跟我們現在裝備使用相關的盡快 人均把它提高 越快越好那時間不站在任何人這邊因為我們不用假設是時間在中國這邊還是台灣這邊但我們就假設就是這個五年假設會遇到衝突那我們要怎麼樣把資源把它做調配"},{"start":10445.45,"end":10462.391,"text":"我想這些都是很明顯的因為不管是任何的資訊起來遊訓轉戰等等的或者是他們的居民的像最近的東海的活動調查當然的這個中國的漁船在特定時間特定海域異常的集結所以他們在用動用的是全國的資源全國的資源在裡面"},{"start":10464.525,"end":10479.97,"text":"我不知道我們特別預算什麼時候會通過但是至少在我們現在能夠調配的部分在理工部分工程部分無人機訓練使用這個部分彈藥這些盡量盡快把它確保有什麼需要我們盡量來去協助好 謝謝謝偉謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢"},{"start":10492.932,"end":10494.662,"text":"好謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":10501.823,"end":10525.12,"text":"好 部長早安 辛苦了部長請教一下1月17號一架中共的尖針無人機在凌晨5點44分進入東沙島領空這是國防部證實的消息但是我們是以用廣播警告的方式它在4分鐘之後離開我們的領空"},{"start":10527.422,"end":10532.671,"text":"國防部為此嚴正表示說這是調性不負責任的行為要受到譴責"},{"start":10534.076,"end":10559.373,"text":"所以呢這次入侵領空的事件我們的反擊是用譴責的方式但是呢回顧過去包含當時的邱國正部長或者是您在立法院裡面很多人都關心就是我們所謂的當中共有軍事的一些行動的時候我們的第一級或者行使自衛權的定義跟標準是什麼"},{"start":10564.616,"end":10575.063,"text":"當時邱部長在113年3月8號的時候說第一級的鑑定就是包含敵方的無人機或者是氣球侵入領空它不需要開炮 它也不需要開槍我們就可以發動第一級這是邱部長的定義那您在113年6月6號"},{"start":10587.83,"end":10593.532,"text":"當時呢 這個也是 你的表示是說如果共軍對於台灣本島 外島 離島未經許可進入十二里 領空 領海就可以下令國軍行使自衛權依比例進行自衛反擊所以我想請教一下部長"},{"start":10609.898,"end":10632.876,"text":"那麼以1月17號中共無人機侵入東沙島領空符不符合您所謂的可以進行自衛反擊就可以行使自衛權這邊有一個重點當然就是說依照他威脅的程度和比例性的來進行自衛反擊那如果說他"},{"start":10634.85,"end":10660.593,"text":"有對我們進行一個武裝攻擊的話我們當然就擁有採取武力進行自我防衛所以1月17號您認為我們沒有進行任何反擊而是讓他廣播驅離這樣子是合適的是不是要依照他的敵情來做一個研判那請問一下部長當天你是什麼時候知道中共無人機侵入了東沙島的領空"},{"start":10661.46,"end":10678.838,"text":"我有接獲回報大概什麼時候 因為他是很早 早上五點四十幾分但是他很快的離開是 我也是一早就被吵醒一早被吵醒 因為非常有可能你剛剛笑了 沒有錯啦如果他未來侵入領空 他不會幫你算時間 上班時間那他可能在夜裡都有可能好 那我的意思就是說"},{"start":10684.224,"end":10704.145,"text":"那如果今天他現在停留的是四分鐘如果他即便是經過我們廣播區裡他仍然在繼續停留他可能停留到二十分鐘 三十分鐘 四十分鐘我想請問那個行使自衛權反擊是不是要由部長下令還是要用什麼層級下令"},{"start":10705.311,"end":10721.729,"text":"我們在突發狀況處置規定以及聯合戰略計畫都有律定授權的舉證跟交戰規則部隊可以視敵情的威脅予以應處好 所以東沙島的軍官就可以視他的威脅性可以行使待機"},{"start":10722.851,"end":10740.084,"text":"威脅的程度如果他認為被進行有遭受到武裝攻擊剛剛已經講了他就可以行使自衛權的反應所以你的6月113年這裡有涉及到一個合比例性的問題所以你113年6月6號的那個說法仍然是確立的"},{"start":10742.177,"end":10759.321,"text":"我想我們就是依照他聯合國的憲章51條我們會有行使自衛權的一個固有權利那只是說這個行使自衛權當然就是以威脅的程度我們和比例的進行部長我還是要說因為侵入領空跟沒有侵入領空這個界線仍然是非常不一樣的"},{"start":10763.562,"end":10784.458,"text":"即便他不是本島 他是來自東 就是在東沙島但是大家也知道 其實我們也擔心中共有所謂的奪島計畫所以我覺得這件事情 還是要讓外界知道我們其實是可以進行反擊 而不是只有口頭上的譴責另外請教一下 剛才那個陳委員也請教你"},{"start":10785.666,"end":10791.83,"text":"最近全世界都在關心中共中央軍委一下又有兩個委員落馬那整個七個中央委員裡面現在只剩下兩個所以在外界的評估裡面一種是比較樂觀的評估所以你看這個他們就是首腦"},{"start":10805.459,"end":10811.121,"text":"當你這個軍事的首腦七個有五個都已經空掉了之後呢 對於台灣的威脅就會降低因為在這樣的狀況之下不大可能去對台灣發動大規模的軍事的行動您同意嗎 這是有一些學者專家這樣認為"},{"start":10830.819,"end":10849.644,"text":"我們認為對我們的威脅不會因為個別高層的落馬而就能夠下一個結論性的判斷他不是個別他現在七個人裡面只剩兩個了另外一個是我們這個張申明剛升上去我們需要更關注的是他對我們他的軍費的一個增長對我們的威脅的他們的"},{"start":10850.504,"end":10876.842,"text":"相關的軍事能力還有相關的所謂所有有關軍事跟非軍事的徵喉我們所依據的判斷是這個而到底我想正反的意見都有但是我們關注了光部本於料敵從寬的這個原則我們認為中共始終不放棄武力犯台就這個部分對我們的威脅還是日益嚴峻所以部長採取的仍然比較謹慎沒有那麼樂觀我覺得這個態度也是對的"},{"start":10880.564,"end":10897.827,"text":"因為事實上他另外兩個李尚福、苗華那麼他們事實上在2024年就落馬了可是大家也看到在去年仍然有兩次大規模的圍台軍演那其實很多人是覺得說在這些軍事首腦即使他們落馬可是他這些圍台軍演看起來也是按照他們原來的計畫並沒有因此而落差"},{"start":10906.749,"end":10914.432,"text":"所以也有人擔心的是即便他們也許內部高層有人說這是整肅也有人說這是鬥爭但是無論如何對台灣以這幾年發動七次的大規模維台軍演去年就有達到兩次之多所以我們仍然去應該要嚴正以待所以部長你採取的態度是比較屬於我剛才講的後者嗎"},{"start":10935.191,"end":10958.73,"text":"所以我們還是會 剛剛講的就是說中共沒有放棄武力換台中共的軍費每年都以百分之七到八的幅度成長中共不斷地在我們周遭進行聯合戰備警巡從事洗澡 從事針對性的軍演中共對我們的威脅始終是存在的而且是日益嚴峻的所以我們從來不敢輕忽"},{"start":10960.031,"end":10987.171,"text":"不會因為看到說哪一位落馬那我們就輕忽我們應該所以賴總統說2027年完成就是清台的準備目前我們還是這個看法嗎我們國軍的立場就是我們要要達到一個高戰備能力然後我們要持續的維持這個高戰備能力而且不斷的在提升我們的戰備能力這是我們的態度"},{"start":10987.742,"end":11001.387,"text":"好OK謝謝接下來請羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11023.5,"end":11040.611,"text":"今天我們的主題其實最重要的我想除了讓全國民眾了解我們現在目前的國軍的武器採購的策略跟國防預算的編列之外其實我覺得最重要的應該就像我曾經多次對外講如果說今天我們家裡的鎖"},{"start":11042.981,"end":11062.822,"text":"已經老舊或者是不堪使用或有更多的地方需要門鎖或窗戶鎖的時候最重要的是要趕快把它補上了那麼上個禮拜一的這個時間點我們其實也開了國防的機密會議喔那麼在這個機密會議當中呢我其實現在是非常關注的是"},{"start":11064.944,"end":11093.864,"text":"確實就是民眾黨的黃國昌委員有把這個機密文件帶出去那麼帶出去現在呢民進黨的立委也已經提告了是不是牽涉涉密我想檢調單位會去查但是確實這個文件是拿出去了我想當時在場包括我在內包括部長在內許多我們在場的官兵都知道這件事情發生他絕對不是空穴來風不是抹黑"},{"start":11094.424,"end":11114.554,"text":"因為有人真的拿出去至於這個文件拿出去了將近一分多鐘的時間點又拿了回來這個也是發生的事實我現在不是要討論這個個別委員到底是不是牽涉機密因為檢調單是不是洩密檢調單我已經在查了可是這個事件確實發生而當時我相信我們可以召開這個機密會議一定某部分的"},{"start":11124.298,"end":11144.175,"text":"也獲得了美方的一些默契因為我們都知道有一些其實是不能公開的甚至於都還在跟美方接洽當中但是因為就是預算一直被卡在程序委員會甚至於是不要說這個所謂年度預算被卡住是連特別預算的條例都被卡住"},{"start":11144.815,"end":11172.072,"text":"所以為了因應立法院能夠有監督所以我們開了星期一的會議本席現在要詢問的是部長這個事件我想全世界都看到包括美方也知道這個會不會影響到我們接下來有關於特別預算武器或包括我們軍購這個部分受到影響尤其是信任上面的影響有沒有跟美方做溝通又或者是他們有沒有什麼反應"},{"start":11173.995,"end":11190.085,"text":"我覺得重點應該還是在於我們要有一個明確的一個在立法院的動作那如果遲遲不能夠復違的話我想就我國安部立場來講我們絕對"},{"start":11193.619,"end":11218.056,"text":"沒有辦法再跟美方做一個很好的溝通他會不斷的在問為什麼不能夠再往下走這一次國防戰略報告也一再的強調就是說要在西太平洋第一島鏈建構巨子型的防禦然後其中有一個很重要的就是要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化整體嚇阻能力"},{"start":11218.957,"end":11243.383,"text":"所以他這個地方透露一個很明確的訊息就是說第一島鏈的國家大家都要一起承擔維護整個印太地區的和平穩定的一個責任台灣是不可能在這樣子的一個所謂整體的嚇阻的能力置身事外的"},{"start":11245.695,"end":11269.236,"text":"這個這個我想如果你看日本要今年要增加到9兆日元那這個折合台幣已經是1.8兆的這樣子的一個史上前所未見的一個國防預算那麼美國自己本身也要增加國防預算那菲律賓也在強化他的這個國防能力澳洲甚至紐西蘭那如果如果"},{"start":11270.057,"end":11294.027,"text":"我們在跟美方從事相關的這些交流軍事交流的時候那麼我們此時沒有看好看到我們的國防預算不管是年度部分的預算案或者是我們的特別條例甚至能夠護衛都不行我覺得我也不曉得要怎麼去說明跟解釋啦那我只是要強調就是說"},{"start":11296.773,"end":11322.896,"text":"我們台灣是第一島鏈的一個關鍵角色這美國國家安全戰略講得很清楚那我們自己要有建構自己的能力然後展現自我的決心這是一個國際所關切的一個事項這個不跟好野黨派有任何的關聯這個應該是大家都要來全力支持的一個事項"},{"start":11323.923,"end":11350.441,"text":"部長其實就您所回應的我可不可以擷取一個重點就是說如果這個軍購一直被擋在程序委員會甚至於是連立法院都沒有審的時候會傳遞出一個所謂錯誤的訊息就是認為台灣不願意自己守護自己的這個第一島鏈上面應有的責任之外甚至於不願意一起來做共同防禦那麼包括我相信這個"},{"start":11352.902,"end":11357.007,"text":"站規司的黃司長其實也講了在上就是1月22號的記者會當中您說國軍由於考量國家財力負荷建軍戰備的規劃所以長期以來都是以最低嚇阻能力"},{"start":11370.501,"end":11388.049,"text":"來勉勵為之其實坦白講喔我當時看到記者會聽到你講這句話我其實蠻震驚的因為顯然也是在一個非萬不得已的情況底下您才會說出這樣的話但是就如同現在我們看到的只要是一旦預算被拖延那麼"},{"start":11389.25,"end":11397.82,"text":"我們等於就是排不上隊排不上隊就要重排重排那麼包括我們都知道物價會上漲整個採購的費用也會隨著時間點而變成價格會變得更貴我必須要說現在我們所傳遞出來的訊息是不是就變成是只要"},{"start":11410.394,"end":11434.629,"text":"這個國民黨在立法院佔多數所有的歷史就會重演包括今天媒體有特別提到要復刻蓮湖會杯葛69次其實本席在準備這個題目的時候也回去找了2004年6月的時候當時是國民黨加親民黨在立法院佔了多數也是聯手在程序委員會杯葛後來因為屆期不連續到了2005年之後"},{"start":11437.29,"end":11462.161,"text":"再提一次當時同樣的一樣是被卡在程序委員會最後逼的只能用所謂的公務預算來做執行那麼再搭配今天出來的新聞我想要強調的是部長如果像這樣真的是復刻20年前的老劇本這才叫做老狗變不出新把戲他的把戲永遠都是只有"},{"start":11462.901,"end":11484.079,"text":"卡卡卡但是就像部長講的我們國家的安全其實沒有顏色那麼這樣子一再卡下去甚至於被逼的回去因為這麼巧我們就是現在連總預算都還不審那如果說他們就是要逼迫變成跟2005年一樣所有的東西通通要推到年度總預算的話部長這樣該怎麼辦"},{"start":11486.55,"end":11502.238,"text":"我想我這邊還是呼籲就是說案子如果能夠互違那就是到了委員會就等於是有案有一個案那看要大家要怎麼討論對這個案這個條例裡面的這個氣象我們要採購的這些裝備我們可以來討論如果現在連討論的機會都沒有的話我覺得我們就會"},{"start":11511.15,"end":11522.896,"text":"沒有辦法來說明為什麼連討論的這個案在委員會形成都沒有辦法這件事情對我來講其實我沒有辦法能夠理解"},{"start":11525.769,"end":11538.425,"text":"對 其實喔這個本席會特別提出來這個是因為我們現在都講的是一個空的就像我所謂空的是說因為根本就像我們一個家裡你要買一些門鎖 門窗甚至於藥裝這個所謂警衛系統"},{"start":11541.809,"end":11546.092,"text":"如果說只是這樣的一個想法都沒有辦法通過那麼如何來討論細目但是在這裡本席有一個請求啦就是希望國防部能夠包括司長黃司長你都已經提到了如果一旦延宕就會造成影響那麼到底如果延宕會具體造成哪些影響國防部你們是不是可以就一個我們目前國軍可能的包括缺口或者是騎乘"},{"start":11570.649,"end":11584.459,"text":"或者是相關的方案是不是可以有一個更明白的書面報告因為從剛剛部長所講的再到司長您所說的就是民眾可能無法理解我以2004年到2005年過程我們所"},{"start":11588.782,"end":11608.278,"text":"發生的事情就是一旦延宕那麼你就排不上騎乘然後就會造成我們現在所講的我們的國軍都是以最低的嚇阻能力來做進行這個對於我們第一線的士官兵這也不是一件好事啊所以可不可以具體的羅列出來一旦像這樣從宋晉來到現在這樣的延宕他所影響的具體的騎乘或是具體的影響到底是什麼有沒有可能書面化"},{"start":11617.148,"end":11644.381,"text":"我想我們都希望我們的能力能夠提升我們也希望我們的國軍能夠拿到好的裝備那我們會持續跟朝野的立委來進行溝通我們也會跟公眾來進行溝通所以我們會努力在這方面我想我們委員的指教我們回去以後來競速來鑽擬這些需要跟朝野的立委溝通還有跟公眾溝通的這些事項"},{"start":11644.861,"end":11655.73,"text":"好 因為我要強調雖然我一直用家裡的門鎖啊這個安全啊來做來做轉達希望民眾能夠聽得懂但是它絕對不是像我們家裡買冰箱買汽車買這個一個電腦"},{"start":11660.513,"end":11681.219,"text":"這些東西其實它的採購的過程中包括下訂的過程到簽約的過程當中它的期程是跟一般的採購行為不一樣但是很多民眾他可能不了解甚至於有一些立法委員他們甚至於不是不了解而是故意不了解所以我覺得更要明確的把這樣的嚴重性必須要講出來是 好 謝偉謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11690.527,"end":11693.549,"text":"接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢麻煩請部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":11719.542,"end":11739.829,"text":"是 葉委員部長好我想請教一下今天我們在討論說那個軍購預算它到底應該放在特別預算還是一般預算那我想另外先問一個問題因為我們現在去採購這些裝備那目前國防部編列的預算除了裝備本身之外大概應該也會編前一兩年的一些維修費用會嗎會嗎"},{"start":11741.701,"end":11757.681,"text":"他就這個新式的裝備有關相關所需要的這些新式裝備的一些那些接裝的初次的備份料件還有這個接裝的訓練等等那大概編幾年"},{"start":11761.38,"end":11787.896,"text":"包園這個依序項目會有點不同像那個海馬仕的部分他因為保固期是三年所以我們規劃的部分他的初次備份料件也是三年然後那戰車呢接裝訓練也是三年標槍跟托士的部分因為已經有買過了所以他不需要再做前置的接裝訓練只要做著內拱總能擴訓所以這個部分他的備份料件的部分跟訓練的部分我們是以"},{"start":11788.536,"end":11812.561,"text":"第一年來編列 後續就是以維持費來支應好 那譬如說以戰車來講 編幾年戰車的部分是一年半一年半 好 但是我就講戰車啦戰車我們應該不是只用一年半嘛 對吧我們預計要用多少年戰車的部分 戰甲 砲車它都有一個概略的標準期程是大概在十年的時候 它會進行檢討做"},{"start":11814.716,"end":11841.377,"text":"OK 其實我的問題很簡單就是因為我們現在在省預算的時候其實我們只看得到比如說以戰車來說就是第一年的作業費然後維修費用但是假設他用十年甚至用到二十年那後續十幾年他到底需要花到多少錢其實是看不出來的所以我們希望說網部可不可以幫評估一下我們買這些裝備到底後續來講的話可能還需要花到多少錢來做"},{"start":11842.518,"end":11847.403,"text":"不管是維修也好或者是保存也好等等因為我們現在裝備不是買來買來就好後續還有很多維修費用比如我們買愛國者的飛彈愛國者飛彈它有時候比如說彈頭什麼問題你還要送回美國去處理再送回來其實都是很大一筆費用"},{"start":11860.973,"end":11890.456,"text":"那其實我們也看到說最近我們國軍的裝備的維修費用其實是越來越高其實越來越高像今年光是空軍的維修保險費用我看媒體報導就是已經編了625億比去年的437億都升高那這個當然有很多原因一方面可能是因為比如說兩岸關係緊張中共可能常常這個飛機老台辦飛使用頻率比較高甚至於我們裝備增加都有可能"},{"start":11890.896,"end":11918.332,"text":"所以這個部分有關於後續的費用可不可以大概估一個估一個數字出來讓大家參考一下好不好作業維持費的這個部分你要考量到就是說譬如說以海馬仕為例的話我們新購進來我們會淘汰那個舊的裝備那舊的裝備如果你那個越舊是它的維持費相對來講是更高這個是海馬仕嘛有的是我們新購的嘛就是說你不能夠說你們現在講的"},{"start":11920.273,"end":11929.779,"text":"那我新裝備進來我後面要有維修那我同樣我新裝備進來我舊裝備淘汰那也要算入這個舊裝備淘汰之後所節省下來的作業維持費但是你這樣子就是我們來講你這樣就是一個陷阱題啊"},{"start":11937.043,"end":11953.167,"text":"你不要預設立場你現在覺得我來找你麻煩所以你才會這樣子講我現在只是說給個數字大家參考我沒有說新的裝備買進來之後整體維修費一定會增加多少我並沒有這樣講我只是說你概括一下讓大家參考這個去扯到說舊的淘汰幹嘛"},{"start":11955.477,"end":11973.697,"text":"這個部分可能要專門跟您做報告因為我們在整規書的細分段裡面就已經針對整厚的部分有了一個完整的規劃但是每一個他都必須經過精密計算所以也不見得每個都一樣那如果我也有興趣的話我們可以針對個案的部分去跟您說明說我們細分段是怎麼樣去推估這些整厚的"},{"start":11974.028,"end":11985.651,"text":"可以啊 謝謝然後再來再請教一下剛剛我有看到王威文也有問就是17號的時候共軍有一個針尖的無人機到我們闖到我們東沙島的領空"},{"start":11987.07,"end":12012.392,"text":"2024年那個邱國正部長他有講說我們現在已經更改了我們第一級的作業方式以前是說有如果敵軍有開炮或開槍的時候我們才會第一級但是現在是只要共軍的實體航空器越界我們就會第一級我想問一下像以東沙島那個艱增無人機闖到我們領空這個狀況它符不符合第一級的要件"},{"start":12015.118,"end":12030.388,"text":"我想剛剛已經跟王委員已經討論過了這件事情就是說這個要看因為我們本來的這些突發狀況組織規定本來就有相關的對這些有律定那就要看他這個如果按照"},{"start":12031.249,"end":12044.045,"text":"按照當時威脅的程度如果我們是遭受到武裝攻擊的話我們當然可以行使我們自我防衛的固有權利所以各級部隊可以依照突發狀況所賦予的這些授權舉證跟交戰規則來有效應處這些緊急的突發狀況"},{"start":12047.897,"end":12070.576,"text":"所以沒有 你沒有回答我的問題以比如說邱國正部長所講的只要共軍實體航空器越界我們就可以第一級那以這一次的狀況1月17號發生的狀況它沒有符合第一級的條件所以我已經講過了我們依照威脅的程度我們合比例的所以他並不是說航空器越界直接就第一級他要看它的威脅程度"},{"start":12071.216,"end":12098.425,"text":"我們依視他的威脅程度來行使自衛權的反擊對我知道那以這個個案來講他的威脅強不強我想就這個部分來看的話在當時的情況之下他不構成還不構成一個武裝攻擊的一個態勢那以這個狀況他要什麼情況下才會你才會第一級是說因為你們有叫他離開嘛然後後來他停留一段時間就離開那是說他一直不離開所以就會第一級還是怎麼樣"},{"start":12099.389,"end":12121.876,"text":"對 所以我們要試他的威脅程度這講得太籠統了因為他本身你們都沒有平常在軍中都沒有講得很清楚嗎就是說以這個個案來講現在因為他來了請他離開 離開了所以不構成威脅但是什麼什麼情況之下其實我們是可以第一級然後我們第一級我們是用什麼方式對不對你們都沒有針對這個個案做個討論"},{"start":12123.733,"end":12145.159,"text":"我們有但是我想我們並不適宜在這裡說明這個都不適宜在這邊講那誰知道你是有還是沒有每一個東西都以這種方式來迴避搞不好你根本沒有但是你講不出來你就說不適合在這邊講我不知道說這個有什麼不能講因為我剛引述的是公開資料是2024年邱國正部長在立法院答詢"},{"start":12146.53,"end":12173.067,"text":"那自己講的說共軍的航空器只要實體越界我們就可以第一級然後現在你又說我們要試情況我說那什麼情況你就說不方便講我們一直講就是說試威脅的程度行使這個威脅程度這就很籠統那我請教一下你們後來國防部有對外講說那一天之所以後來也沒有發射沒有把他打下來是因為他是在航空射程外"},{"start":12174.11,"end":12197.652,"text":"有這樣回答嗎我想新聞稿上面有這麼寫有這樣寫嗎所以他到底是因為不構成威脅沒有去打他還是因為他是在防空射程外沒有去打他我們當然要當時的判斷委員全程監控那麼依照他的這個威脅的程度不要再繞圈圈我說因為你們對外發布有講說他是在防空射程外嘛讓大家以為說是因為在防空射程外打不到"},{"start":12198.168,"end":12227.808,"text":"所以沒去打但是部長你現在講法又有點改口了說是因為他不構成威脅所以沒有去打他所以實際上他是因為在防空射程外的關係還是因為他不構成威脅我這邊可以跟委員做一個說明就是說他這個一個高高空的一個狀態所以我們認為沒有構成這個武裝攻擊的一個程度所以我們沒有行使這一個所謂的把它視為武裝攻擊而進行所謂的自衛權的反擊"},{"start":12228.928,"end":12249.761,"text":"應該是這樣講 那麼所以所以我們還是講我們依照他的威脅的程度我們何必會進行所以你的意思是說因為他在很高空啦在防空射程外所以不構成威脅所以我們沒去打他是這個意思嗎相關 我想這些細節我們"},{"start":12252.765,"end":12277.645,"text":"委員好 我是發言人沈立芳跟您做一個報告我們在新聞稿裡面所談到的在防空射程武器之外這件事情是陳述一個事實就是說它當時的高度在我們的武器射程之外好 那所以跟要不要打它是無關並不是因為它太高打不到並不是因為打不到所以沒打就對了好 那如果今天它在我們的防空射程外然後你們又評估說它有構成威脅的話你會怎麼處理"},{"start":12280.854,"end":12292.459,"text":"報告委員實際上這個在我們的突破狀況處置規定裡頭都有詳細的律定我們會看它威脅的程度做評估可是相關的戰術細節您等於在這邊我們不能公開的掀開我們這個什麼戰術細節你可以針對可以講的"},{"start":12297.921,"end":12321.946,"text":"今天大家為什麼來問這個事情因為大家會覺得說怎麼連一個針尖無人機過來好像都無法處理嘛然後國軍每次都是的回應方式就是說我們會處理我們有辦法但我不能講那誰知道你是有沒有辦法你可以針對你可以講的部分來回答可是不能夠回答方式每次都說我們有辦法但我不能講"},{"start":12322.666,"end":12336.072,"text":"這一部分牽扯到我們國軍的作戰安全我們當然不能公開你可以針對可以講的部分因為我們現在在這邊監督就是說你到底有沒有辦法因為我現在針對的是你發布的新聞稿不合理的地方在跟你討論所以剛剛那一位"},{"start":12338.473,"end":12353.93,"text":"那個官員也有講就是那兩者沒有必然關係但我們會想要知道說既然國軍有一個第一級的原則那到底什麼情況之下是可以打不能打你不能說每一次只要問到好像你比較難回答問題就說我們做到但是不告訴你"},{"start":12354.11,"end":12372.905,"text":"第一集的原則當然是要堅守的可是有關這些戰術還有武器使用我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我沒有要問到那麼細我們現在只要問說到底是有沒有辦法保衛大家我沒有要問到說叫你把機密講出來不要動不動這樣子扣人家帽子好像我們在窺探什麼機密一樣我沒有要問機密嘛"},{"start":12377.068,"end":12387.332,"text":"沒有要問機密但是你要告訴大家到底一個原則在哪裡嘛你現在原則就是很籠統啊你就是說原則剛才部長已經做了說明了那個原則就太籠統了部長可不可以針對可以講的部分至少講一個讓國人安心的第一點"},{"start":12399.816,"end":12421.081,"text":"如果遭受到外來的武裝攻擊依照聯合國憲章51條規定我們就可以採取武力進行自我防衛的固有權利這第一個第二個我們要進行這個自衛的時候呢自衛反擊的時候我們要合比例的來行使這是第二個第三個各級部隊可以依照突發狀況指示規定賦予的"},{"start":12421.681,"end":12430.93,"text":"授權舉證跟交戰規則有效的來應處這些緊急突發的事件那至於其他的部分呢我想我們並不適合在這邊做公開的說明好 謝謝謝謝我們接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":12451.58,"end":12453.562,"text":"謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長部長好辛苦了我是最後一位了所以可以輕鬆一點那個請教一下部長"},{"start":12469.739,"end":12486.936,"text":"這個美國的戰爭部他在日前有公布了一個2026的國防戰略的報告這報告您有看過了嗎我想不管是國家安全戰略或者是國防戰略都是我們要密切關注的一個事項"},{"start":12488.8,"end":12512.794,"text":"他的重點就是說防衛美國本土印太地區以實力而非對抗來嚇阻中國那也說提高美國盟友與夥伴的防務的分擔雖然沒有提到台灣不像在國家安全戰略裡面八次提到台灣他在戰爭部這一次的國防戰略裡面沒有提到台灣"},{"start":12513.895,"end":12540.914,"text":"但是他有提到說這個要在第一島鏈建立強有力的巨子型的防禦那台灣位到這個位於這個第一島鏈的中心所以我認為雖然沒有提到台灣但是他提到這個第一島鏈其實大概這個對於台灣來講這個重要性是不言可喻跟委員報告應該是在國家安全戰略是有提到台灣是第一島鏈的關鍵角色是在國防的"},{"start":12541.815,"end":12556.425,"text":"那個戰略報告裡面沒有特別提到台灣但是國防戰略報告是延續國家安全戰略延續而來的所以在國家安全戰略已經明確指出台灣是在第一島連鎮扮演的關鍵角色"},{"start":12557.285,"end":12574.574,"text":"所以在國防安全戰略裡面他特別強調的是說在西太平洋要建構第一島鏈要建構一個整體的一個巨子型的防禦那要跟盟友夥伴來共同強化這個整體的第一島鏈的一個整體的嚇阻能力這是這個國防戰略報告裡面"},{"start":12575.855,"end":12592.311,"text":"一個重點所以他要求所有的盟友都要一起承擔這個責任所以不管是日本不管是菲律賓甚至澳洲等等那也包括韓國等等都要增加國防預算增加自己的這個"},{"start":12593.332,"end":12607.3,"text":"防衛能力然後來形成一個集體的嚇阻來維持印太區域的和平安全與穩定當然重中之重當然是台海區域的和平穩定因為台灣在第一島鏈的整個樞紐的位置然後又站在這個前緣"},{"start":12608.921,"end":12629.278,"text":"所以部長其實你剛才講得很清楚先有國家安全戰略接下來才有戰爭部的國防戰略在國家安全戰略裡面其實台灣的重要性是非常的重要特別提到第一條鏈部長也有提到說盟友要來共同分擔防務的部分我就要請教一下部長"},{"start":12629.818,"end":12655.79,"text":"我們現在的這個軍購的特別條例啊一直遲遲無法通過這個會不會影響到這個美國的這個國家安全戰略裡面台灣在第一島鏈的重要性我想這會傳達一個非常嚴重不好的訊息台灣沒有這會傳達台灣如果這個特別條例一直沒有辦法能夠護衛然後來討論的話我想連護衛都沒辦法護衛的話這個會嚴重影響這個"},{"start":12659.54,"end":12668.814,"text":"我們所有的民主的友盟夥伴對我們有沒有自我懷念的決心感到嚴重的懷疑美國政府會不會懷疑我們"},{"start":12670.785,"end":12697.69,"text":"我想AIT大概都已經做了很多這個表述了我想我就不需要在這裡特別重複我們跟台美之間的軍事交流應該我可以說他在各領域方面都不斷的在強化我們的防衛能力那所以我想我們應該也要快速的要來強化我們的這些新式武器裝備能力"},{"start":12698.87,"end":12724.057,"text":"一個仇共然後人力的一個建制這樣好 那所以剛剛部長有提到說如果這個軍購條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違更不要說審查跟後續這個有沒有辦法通過那我想請教一下部長如果像媒體還有所提到就是說現在國民黨為了這個跟中共那邊有更密切的交流他們打算要求國民黨就是繼續跟他們當時候在組黨"},{"start":12726.498,"end":12745.667,"text":"這個我們的這個潛艦的軍購的運算一樣打算也在程序委員會要一直擋一直擋現在擋8次嘛要擋60幾次他們才滿意那我就要請教部長啦過去那時候在野黨在程序委員會擋後來我們潛艦就買不到了那現在如果在野黨繼續在程序委員會繼續阻擋赴圍的話"},{"start":12748.539,"end":12772.302,"text":"先不要說釋放出來這個美國這個會認為說我們沒有防衛自己的這個決心跟能力那我們所想要購買的美國也同意賣給我們的這些武器未來會買得到嗎因為這禮拜已經是這個會期的最後一週了如果這禮拜一樣沒辦法赴會的話那接下來要拖延的可能時間會拉得更長或許今年也沒辦法通過"},{"start":12773.439,"end":12784.112,"text":"那對於台灣來講 我們想要買的這些武器美國也同意賣給我們這些武器 會不會就買不到了因為這個是從去年 我記得是3月吧"},{"start":12785.255,"end":12803.6,"text":"就已經跟美方不斷地進行討論那在美方同意公售的情況之下我們就軍購的部分來提出這樣的一個特別條例那剛剛站櫃師也提到了這個相關後續如果沒有辦法通過的一個嚴重性是不是等一下再說明"},{"start":12804.2,"end":12825.613,"text":"我簡單要說明一下我們現在面對的情況比2004年要嚴重多了2004年那三項軍購潛艦是美國自己不做的他還有不確定性存在P-3C是熱機交接是在那個地方的那時候的I-3採購的國家也相當有限我們現在面對的是所有國家都在提升能力一旦我們錯過這個時間點"},{"start":12828.254,"end":12845.424,"text":"如果說發價書來了之後45天之後我們沒有辦法簽我們整個作業至少得延宕八九個月以上就是重新再來有這種可能性那後面當然就是其他國家提升了國防預算訂單出來之後我們能不能拿得到在什麼時間點拿到完全都是不確定"},{"start":12846.465,"end":12860.366,"text":"那所以未來如果這次軍工條例連覆違都沒辦法覆違那這樣聽下來搞不好整個第一個時間會延宕大概至少一年第二個你想要購買的武器也不一定能夠買得到了"},{"start":12861.369,"end":12883.915,"text":"因為我們原來同意籌購的項目雙方已經就這些項目已經有進行同意包括這些相關的項量提成項量等等那如果發價數過來之後就如同站櫃師所講的我們如果沒有辦法如期完成發價數的簽署那這個整個程序必須要打掉重來的話我們可能會面對"},{"start":12885.888,"end":12908.576,"text":"面對我們這個戰力的提升會受到嚴重的延宕那這個我看不只是這樣主要是美國對我們有沒有自我防衛能力的決心還有不只是美國包括我們所有的民族友盟夥伴我想都會有一個嚴重的問號產生那你有聽說民眾黨今天他們有自己要提出一個他們的軍購特別條例的版本嗎"},{"start":12910.202,"end":12938.569,"text":"我想如果有任何意見我覺得在我們的行政院版所提出的這個條例本身我們可以來進行討論嗎如果有任何的修改或怎麼樣各黨團都可以提出意見嗎那我還是強調就是說就盡量能夠盡快附委然後我們在委員會做就這個部分來進行審查那如果有任何的意見我們都可以來進行討論"},{"start":12939.369,"end":12963.836,"text":"所以有一種情況是有可能包含院版的跟民眾黨的版本一起赴委有這種可能性嗎我們整個軍購預算是一個整體性的規劃我們也做過精密專報我想很多委員都已經了解相關的內容就整體的規劃我想都還比如說軍購的部分有涉及美方他同盟意賣"},{"start":12964.856,"end":12991.751,"text":"那我們還有根據我們的依照敵情威脅跟我們的防衛作戰的一個需求我們提出相關的這些商購跟自治的項目這些都經過整體考量那具體的項目各位委員不管朝野有任何意見我們都可以來討論所以部長的意思就是說其實你們這個因為之前我也問過了這個條例你們準備很久的時間包含後面的預算大概也不是說這個關在房間裡面兩天就能夠寫出來的吧"},{"start":12993.953,"end":13013.219,"text":"我們是花了很多時間好啦 這個剩下最後一週啦我其實沒有抱有任何期望但是我對於剛剛部長所提到的認為我是覺得說那對於如果這樣子下去的話美國真的會懷疑台灣防衛自己決心的能力啦好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":13015.179,"end":13019.523,"text":"謝謝謝謝李委員那因為剛剛聽起來就是說我們針對美國同意軍軍售的部分我想好像是國防部比較不重視如果這個這麼重要的話其實這個部分你把它放在特別預算清清楚楚的我覺得這個可能比較沒有什麼"},{"start":13038.362,"end":13057.242,"text":"所以如果說你們覺得這個非常重要應該不要把它包成一大包把其他可能不是太重要的或不應該放的把它放在一起那應該要讓他釐清的非常清楚因為有很多委員都提到說用比較簡單的方式讓大家知道我們要買門鎖"},{"start":13059.184,"end":13081.675,"text":"我們不是沒有國防預算我們每年都有我們都有門鎖他不管是壞了還是舊了他都有你用薪水就可以馬上買因為他很重要所以我們在年度預算一定就可以支出而不是要去借錢來買門鎖我想這樣大家也很清楚那另外就這個部分嚴當也不是因為"},{"start":13082.875,"end":13109.042,"text":"預算刻意不過在我們的所有的公務預算裡面其實即使還沒有審你還是可以按照去年的所以剛剛提到油料的部分我們油料今年多編了4億可是我們在韌性預算剛剛通過的1100多億裡面我們也有買油料所以當有需求的時候我相信國防部應該知道哪一些輕重環節應該要怎麼樣調度跟因應"},{"start":13111.403,"end":13114.626,"text":"所以不要去誤導很多的一個方向這是我們希望如果需要溝通應該要朝這樣才能夠溝通那另外我們還要今天已經登記諮詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":13129.818,"end":13143.088,"text":"本日會議有黃仁委員 林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":13145.129,"end":13147.77,"text":"委員由指定期限者從其鎖定另外也請國防部可以提供因為就上週美國AIT處長他在有公開的表示就是說在國防院舉辦的這個講座裡面他有說美商諾格已經在台灣設立一座中口徑彈藥的測試場那這個部分因為包括像我們一般在設靶場小彈藥"},{"start":13172.614,"end":13191.008,"text":"就是我們一般的小型彈藥的時候我們都有需要民間的同意包括所以今天中口徑的其實它範圍更大它設在哪裡或者我們到底是怎麼合作的今天我們希望國防部可以提供相關的訊息給本委員會那就"},{"start":13196.296,"end":13201.088,"text":"這個部分我們請相關單位提供那本次會議到此結束 散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}