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其他建議事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1960.543,"end":1982.1,"text":"好 那麼在邀請各位發言之前 新舊公聽會的程序進行說明首先我們會請專家學者先發言 那發言的順序就依照簽到的先後順序那麼本院委員按照登記先後順序來發言那麼如果陸續到場的話 那本席也會穿插安排請委員發言"},{"start":1983.061,"end":2008.508,"text":"原則上就會在兩位專家學者發言之後穿插一位委員發言但是如果發言登記的委員人數比較多的時候就會在上午10點那麼則於上午10點30分以後登記的委員安排在所有專家學者發言完畢之後再按照登記順序發言那麼如果需要協調提前發言就先請告知主席台我們再次情況著雨調整"},{"start":2011.72,"end":2013.323,"text":"首先我們就先請政府機關"},{"start":2015.856,"end":2041.096,"text":"首先我們請政府機關代表發言但是今天政府機關代表基本上應該沒有要發言都是提了書面報告好那接下來我們就針對專家學者以及委員的意見會加以回應然後與會者就先請到發言台發言在主席的右手邊為專家學者列席機關代表的發言台左手邊是為委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在聽取專家學者的"},{"start":2041.716,"end":2057.005,"text":"借意見 所以每位專家學者發言時間為10分鐘本院委員發言的時間為5分鐘好 那麼現在我們就請專家學者們發言首先我們就先請第一位的高士南副總會長發言"},{"start":2078.317,"end":2101.137,"text":"翁委員 在座的各級官代表以及各位學者先進 笨鳥先飛我是中華民國公家軍營銷聯合總會高士南在座有很多都是我老師輩的學者所以在這裡我們就獻醜了"},{"start":2103.225,"end":2122.651,"text":"今天就政務人員權利義務的一個法制我很榮幸受邀來做一個報告我今天沒有打算就很細節的去做一個說明請就提綱的重要的部分做一個大的一個綱要性的方向的指引"},{"start":2125.359,"end":2152.185,"text":"我想對政務人員法這個定法的這個專法的這個有沒有這個必要性我個人是肯定的那我是基於兩個論據第一個我想近代的公共組織公共治理公法都強調一個公共性的一個價值的一個核心理念那它主要是期待所有的從事公共事務或者公共服務的作為一個公共的信託人都應該對國家忠誠"},{"start":2154.349,"end":2177.63,"text":"都應該要恪守這個憲法 遵守法制都應該要追求公共利益及社會正義要回應公眾的集體需求並創造福祉所以在這樣的要求下所有的公務員都應該要有一定的行為規範不管是政務官 常務官那僅僅是因為他們的職務角色的不同要律定不同的一個規範而已"},{"start":2179.674,"end":2204.661,"text":"再來就政務人員來講我們一般學理上就稱為政務官是以常務官相對的我想這個兩者的區別我們都是政治學上的ABC不用在這裡做說明政務人員主要是政治任命的一個人員負責政策的制定和政策的一個責任隨著政黨的輪替或者是政策的變更來做去留"},{"start":2205.541,"end":2232.072,"text":"所以他是廣義的公務員也是所謂公職人員的一部分那依照大法官過去的解釋他說是依照法令從事於公務的人員所以既然依照法令從事公務除了政務官跟常務官不同負有政治責任之外他也負有法律的責任我們就可以從公務員懲戒法的規定就可以了解到這一點所以他的權利義務我們主張應該有一個專法來規定"},{"start":2234.506,"end":2258.079,"text":"來已知明確就第一個提綱的第一個部分也跟第三個提綱這個有關係的部分就是說應該受規範的中央級跟地方級的人員的範疇是在怎樣的一個範定內會比較適當我們目前並沒有這個真無人員的專法"},{"start":2259.264,"end":2274.57,"text":"那各個法令都擅見在這個相關的法令當中那僅有制定所謂的政務人員退職撫恤條例那我們如果就這個條例第二條的規定來看它總共包括了"},{"start":2276.511,"end":2299.86,"text":"五項的這個政務人員包括依憲法規定有總統任命的人員依憲法規定有總統提名經濟法院同意的人員依憲法規定有行政院提請總統任命的人員還有前三款以外的特任特派人員第五種就是其他依法律規定的中央或地方的這個比較12等以上職務的人員"},{"start":2300.987,"end":2329.978,"text":"所以我們依照這個規定來看呢我們已經可以了解到其實他已經跳脫了這個學理上政務官的範疇也就是呢他把一些這個有固定任期獨立行使職權不必隨著政黨政策更迭的這些公職政務人員也就是我們這裡所提到的總統提名經濟法院同意的任命人員也都包括在裡面的"},{"start":2330.658,"end":2359.014,"text":"那比如說司法院考試院的政府院長大法官考試委員監察委員或者是這個行政院下的中選會公平會 國際選舉委員都包括在這裡面那其實是跟學理上是不太合理的那另外呢 它也依照這個條文跟地方制度法規定把地方政府"},{"start":2361.277,"end":2388.153,"text":"民選首長所任命的副主任副市長副縣市長以及機關單位的首長也屬於政務方的範圍那這也跟西方國家政務官的這個這個政務官是現與中央官員的概念是不一樣的所以我們今天這個剛好這個提綱的提問我們就要這裡做一個說明就是有關政務人員範圍的確定其實他是屬於這個"},{"start":2391.386,"end":2403.237,"text":"立法政策的一個問題那如果沒有審慎的規範未來也會面臨自私欲分的這樣一個問題所以我個人認為如果要制定政務人員的專法"},{"start":2405.188,"end":2425.598,"text":"應該要排除固定任期獨立行政職權不隨政黨這些公職人員回歸到各該職務的行為法比如法官法我們剛所提到那個獨立任命的人員裡面像大法官 像各法院的法官工程會的委員長"},{"start":2426.758,"end":2441.975,"text":"委員長等等他們就是在這個法官府裡面做規範但是呢除了這個選擇之外呢或者我們也可以在專法裡面認定專章把這些有固定任期跟這個獨立性的職權的人另做一個規範"},{"start":2443.456,"end":2469.042,"text":"那另外呢地方自治團體的這些我們剛剛提到的這些首長他們是辦理地方自治的人員並不是國家的政務那也可以考量予以刪除那不過呢又或者我們如果考量到我國公務員法制呢其實沒有把中央跟地方的公務員做一個區分都是用一條邊的法制"},{"start":2469.722,"end":2481.773,"text":"而且考量到地方政治也受到政黨政治的波及所以我們如果把它納入到政務人員的範疇或者也可以成為我國政務法的一個特色再來就這個"},{"start":2487.932,"end":2503.226,"text":"我們如果考量到說對提問裡面所謂的固定任期具有獨立機關人員的話我這裡舉出最具有代表性的美國的獨立機關人員的行為規範作為範例美國獨立機關的人員的行為專業規範主要在確保"},{"start":2513.737,"end":2524.233,"text":"所謂的專業中立超越黨派跟防止第一的衝突它包括了五大部分主要是在政治中立方面它主要是"},{"start":2526.516,"end":2542.779,"text":"必須超越黨派之外然後呢禁止在工作期間參與黨派的活動然後呢獨立性的要求呢還有任期保護的部分呢為有固定的任期獨立行使之權他是不受到這個其他機關的指揮"},{"start":2544.178,"end":2562.799,"text":"那除了一些特定的重大的無效能代乎職責獨職等正當理由之外總統是不能任意免職的那另外在這個道德規範利益衝突方面呢他受到這個聯邦公務人員倫理法的規範他也必須遵守公務員的道德行為"},{"start":2563.78,"end":2590.906,"text":"那黨派平衡的部分是比較特別的就委員會成員不能由單一政黨來控制通常由跨黨派組成或超越黨派的這樣的規定那另外就是處罰執行機制方面委員如果違反行政論理那可能由這個特別檢察官提起據例處分的訴訟並由聯邦公機制保護委員會來審理那如果依照這樣的一個參據呢"},{"start":2593.686,"end":2621.769,"text":"我們這裡提綱像在第三個提綱相關連的部分所提問的就固定任期獨立薪水資源人員跟一般公務人員的行為規範它最大的區別就是這裡提問的應該就是在所謂的政治中立跟免職任期保障的部分如果我們把現在的公務人員的中立法作為一個參考的準據的話"},{"start":2622.935,"end":2648.85,"text":"我們把它拉進來剛好是一般政務人員公務員跟所謂的獨立機關的人員它成了一個光譜由寬鬆到嚴格政務人員依照政治考量的進退依照政治理念的政治黨政治的理念他當然可以參加政黨活動和一些助選活動但他仍然不得利用職權或者行政資源來影響政黨政治和競選活動"},{"start":2650.852,"end":2666.967,"text":"但是對這個有固定任期的獨立這個機關的政務人員他參加政黨活動或者任何的公職院候選主任活動的政治活動都要受到嚴格的限制然後常任文官剛好借助在這個中間現行法的一個規範"},{"start":2668.268,"end":2684.098,"text":"那對獨立薪酬職權的這些政務院呢既然已經隔離在這個政治之外呢他免職的理由主要就是限於像美國一樣重大的這些無效能代護職者或者是這個獨職的功能這個部分就法律事務的一個部分"},{"start":2685.298,"end":2706.168,"text":"以上是我就這個裡面提問最重點的部分做一個重要的說明至於說主管機關的話我們還是主張未來政務人員法由考試院來主管成績的部分依照憲憲法規定由司法院來負責修正經驗請看到我的書面最後我特別要強調的一點就是"},{"start":2707.368,"end":2733.687,"text":"我想美國的公共心理學者曾經提出一個宇宙心腸的說明就是制限難 但形現更難所以 《政治法》有專法制定的必要可以規範《政治法》肅清政風 釐清勵志我們贊成它應該有這樣的法但是這樣的一個具有高度政治性的法律制定法律固然重要但是落實執行我們認為才是真正的考驗"},{"start":2734.808,"end":2762.84,"text":"他也是要考驗我們未來民主法治品質的重要的關鍵那我們為什麼這樣講就站在公教俊銷總會的一個副會長兼過去年改小組召集人我們看到我們現在年改的法案這個已經通過了但是我們在場有考試院有我們權敘部的同仁但是考試院權敘部卻拖延執行"},{"start":2763.44,"end":2792.211,"text":"那最警消的部分是拒不执行那我们看到现在这样的很多的乱象都是因为我们没有一部真正的有规范的一个政务人员法所以我们在这里要与众心肠的在强调就是说制定这样的法固然有需要但是我们还需要期许我们所有的政务人员未来有这样的法之后能够恪守这样的一个法治那这样才是我们能够增进我们民主品质最重要的一个关键谢谢"},{"start":2794.827,"end":2799.499,"text":"好 謝謝高副會長接下來我們就請蔣貴美老師發言"},{"start":2807.16,"end":2827.693,"text":"主席黃委員雖然剩沒幾天但是你的粉絲會很傷心各位先進大家好我時間有限所以我想馬上切入重點我覺得政務人員法早就該定了因為我們一直把政務官事務官化"},{"start":2828.872,"end":2851.121,"text":"這是國內長久以來的問題有些政務人員他可以做個十幾年我不知道為什麼我自己出身保訓會可是保訓會的委員就有超過十年了我的意思是說我們政務人員理論上他是對政黨負責所以政黨負責的定義是什麼他不能離開民意太久"},{"start":2851.821,"end":2864.626,"text":"所以政務人員不管你是特別職特別職 大法官 考委 監委這個都是特別職我們叫special position這種特別職他有專業限制但是不表示他可以跟民意脫鉤他照樣要經過國會"},{"start":2867.447,"end":2891.69,"text":"所以我們的政務人員在中央有四級四級裡面三級在蔡政府的時代第三級開放了政務所以我覺得不管你是一級 二級 三級的政務都要經過立法院這是最基本的一個民意政治的道理至於特別職的部分就是我們剛剛說有專業限制的他也不能回民意監督"},{"start":2892.884,"end":2900.55,"text":"那所以呢 既然不能迴避民意監督我會認為特別值得一定要有連任的限制"},{"start":2902.358,"end":2928.857,"text":"或者他只能一任他別無借據我甚至認為監委也只能一任別無借據當你心中有職位的時候你絕對不會把政務當成你是對選民的承諾你會把政務當成一個職位這樣是不對的所以這是一個非常重要的政務的基本定義我們不能背離民意同時我們在實務上已經發生了很多問題"},{"start":2932.543,"end":2939.275,"text":"這個請問監察院有好朋友在座但是現在大家都很難承認是我的好朋友我們一事歸一事陳菊院長為什麼可以請假這麼久"},{"start":2944.141,"end":2970.036,"text":"我看到过去的同仁非常辛苦的在解释怎么会用事务官请假规则呢那个很清楚那个请假规则是公务人员请假规则他定的是事务官所以当然要有政务人员专法来处理所以政务人员专法本来就不该延宕因为我们把政务官事务官化了所以才会弄得逻辑不清"},{"start":2971.226,"end":2990.016,"text":"那所以呢當我們要面對這個專法的時候第一個要思考什麼問題你知道政委員涉及到多少法我在書面一件第一段提到的是法務部相關的夜館法務部裡面有財生有什麼有利衝利益衝突迴避"},{"start":2990.976,"end":3011.578,"text":"程序法是不是法務部的事程序法裡面過去我們在監察院最常用到的是47條做程序外的接觸而且還彈劾過很多人他是做程序外的接觸好那法務部也非常奇怪為什麼財深利充是法務部的夜館執行放到監察院"},{"start":3013.069,"end":3030.874,"text":"我很少看到夜館跟執行是拆開的但是法務部比較大它長期是這樣我去監察院的第一天就發現這個問題後來大法官7、8、6號做了一個解釋說什麼所以那個裁法要符合罪責相當啊責罰相當的原則"},{"start":3034.963,"end":3055.018,"text":"那我們在監察院很早就發現了管你怎麼樣的為師情節輕重都不論從一百萬起跳這是有問題的可是那個條文是誰訂的是法務部訂的他根本不瞭你啊一直到七八六號出現被大法官打了一巴掌才改啊所以這個執行跟決策"},{"start":3056.192,"end":3072.411,"text":"根本拆开的逻辑是错误的所以我们更需要专法来统一统筹它的权责那至于全序部业管的全序部业管的譬如说像公务员服务法我们在很多法里面用词是不一定的"},{"start":3073.902,"end":3080.705,"text":"這個群衆部的公務員服務法裡面 它指的是公務員公務員有沒有包含證物 當然有 第二條裡面就包含證物所有分級的文物之公務人員 當然包含證物但他用的是什麼 他用的是這個公務員他用的不是證物 但他當然包含證物甚至包含法務部的公職人員的立充有沒有包含證物 當然有 但他用的是公職人員"},{"start":3098.571,"end":3119.727,"text":"所以我們有的用公職員有的用公務員有的用政府人員各種法各定其事因為它是不同時間出來的所以各定其事也就罷了但是它的權責不同各自規範所以專法實在太有必要了我們在公務員服務法裡面公務員不得經營商業"},{"start":3121.599,"end":3146.529,"text":"不在經營商業 你要怎麼去納入規範這裡面有沒有包含證物 當然有證物跟事物呢 一體適用它的標準怎麼會一樣我們對證物是應該要有更嚴格的門檻因為證物是對老百姓負責的基本上它必須明確化那另外呢 譬如說我們在這個全序部業館的我們還有一個行政中立法"},{"start":3148.274,"end":3176.161,"text":"我在看到我們三個版本裡面將來一定會統一變成一個版本很多委員都會把行政中立放進去可是行政中立法呢憑良心說它規範的是事務官當初最早在民國九十幾年的時候那時候好像還在考試院這個整個的草案過程呢我記得非常清楚當時有個立委叫黃爾璇那很早以前的立委他是主張政治中立法他周強森委員那時候也是立委"},{"start":3177.145,"end":3194.615,"text":"他主張政治中立法所以那個政治中立那個名詞到現在行政中立法第一條還在裡頭可是下面講的是行政中立第一條講的是政治中立那為什麼因為最早的時候希望把政務官拿進來因為事務官不中立那是黑手都叫政務官都是政務人員"},{"start":3196.186,"end":3220.601,"text":"那可是這一塊呢 行政重力法沒有放進來後來把它全部踢掉了那你介入事務官的升遷轉調人事重大的用機要來處理等等一大堆的門道那這個要在哪裡處理你是不是要回到政府人員專法去處理那而且還有一個非常重要的問題我覺得將來三個版本可能可以考慮納入的部分就是說我們另外還有一個政黨法"},{"start":3222.048,"end":3239.686,"text":"政黨法是規範誰的規範政黨但是我們絕對不能忽略我們歷任的總統幾乎都是黨主席耶一個人在公職上我叫總統回到黨裡我叫黨主席那這是台灣長期來的特色但是時代不同了我們要面對這個問題"},{"start":3241.636,"end":3253.963,"text":"那今天反對黨因為沒有執政但反對黨已經看得出他黨主席不見得是將來當選的這個最後的leader那所以這個趨勢已經慢慢浮現了所以我們是不是要面對這個問題也就是說政黨法裡面規範的是什麼是政黨的角色但是我們把它跟政務員一刀切開了所以政務員回答政黨他可以為所欲為對他的黨變成全國這不對的"},{"start":3270.391,"end":3277.874,"text":"這政務人員法要把它放進去我們要避免的是什麼不是他行政中不中立所有的政務人員都在輔選除了法務部啊 國防部長全部都在輔選他中立什麼我們要規範的是什麼黨政分離不能把國家的資源搬去他的政黨那這個要納入政務人員法裡面去處理那這一塊沒有看到我覺得這個勢必還是要考慮進來的那另外呢我們剛剛講過"},{"start":3301.683,"end":3303.805,"text":"特別職呢 他是對專業負責那既然對專業負責 他有專業門檻"},{"start":3308.508,"end":3319.053,"text":"但是特別職的定義是什麼它不是只有中立它包含了專業上的獨立如果特別職你不能回歸專業你只想到你的政黨我覺得他可能就必須對他的職務要負責這個負責是什麼這個負責就是我們那個大綱裡面提到的所謂的免職如果他堅持也不辭職然後你要糾纏他這個糾纏"},{"start":3335.02,"end":3343.367,"text":"全縣也只有監察院有但監察院憑良心說從我109年離開以後到現在的發展趨勢在慢慢轉變中它轉變成似乎只有人權委員會似乎只有人權上的協調提報告那但是專業系你趕得上大學教授嗎那但是你的監督按大幅減少你的彈劾按糾正按大幅減少你的角色在轉變"},{"start":3361.201,"end":3384.156,"text":"所以我們裡面一直說這個制裁是不是回歸監察院我是遲疑的因為功能性必須要凸顯出來所以不如定在政務人員法來處理那賦予他懲處或懲戒那懲戒當然是移送司法機關但是懲處的話事實上主管長官就可以處理"},{"start":3385.197,"end":3397.902,"text":"那所以呢我們在最後因為時間很有限其他看書面那我覺得呢政務人員的權利因為這個公聽會的title裡面有談到一個right權利事項那但是我覺得三個版本沒有處理權利我也覺得不需要處理為什麼呢因為諷刺的部分我們過去一個諷刺條例草案在民國98年就有提出後來pending掉了"},{"start":3413.408,"end":3418.035,"text":"那我覺得那一塊就回到目前的相關法令也許就專門處理政務官的責任或義務那這樣這個法條明確的話會更具體一些好 謝謝"},{"start":3427.095,"end":3446.488,"text":"好 謝謝張老師的發言那接下來我再補充介紹剛剛到場的專家學者和委員首先先介紹我們今天的現場的委員有黃國昌委員還有羅志強委員黃國昌委員這個下來就是我們立法院第一名這個最認真最負責的即便是他剩下兩天開會的時間對不對但是今天還是"},{"start":3450.351,"end":3470.259,"text":"出席我們的公聽會 待會兒也會發言非常感謝他接下來還有兩位專家學者剛剛到場的一個是彭錦鵬 彭教授另一位是政治大學公務行政系的江明修 江教授謝謝接下來我們就繼續有請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3483.494,"end":3508.195,"text":"非常感謝今天這麼多與會的學者專家還有法界政界的先進到立法院針對政務人員權利義務法制化的公定會提供寶貴的意見我相信大家都非常的清楚政務人員法制化這完全不是一個新的議題這是早就該做拖延到今天遲遲不做的一個問題"},{"start":3510.377,"end":3538.475,"text":"這個早就該做拖延到今天遲遲不做的問題背後結構性的因素我相信大家也都很了解過去曾經高深倡議過政務人員應該要法治化等到自己掌握權力了以後完全不想要受任何的規範完全不想要受任何的規範開始提一些莫名其妙牽托的理由想要阻礙"},{"start":3539.997,"end":3564.889,"text":"搞到最後連這個主管機關到底是行政院還是考試院喬不定都可以成為阻礙這部法律立法的理由我相信在立法院久了就知道要反對一個法案從來都不是直接表示反對要反對一個法案只要找到裡面幾個"},{"start":3566.471,"end":3593.917,"text":"事情說還要再討論還要再研議就永無止計的延宕下去政務人員法治化正是其中一個非常典型的例子政務人員沒有法治化他會產生什麼荒謬的現象他會產生荒謬的現象是即使是五院的院長請假超過一年"},{"start":3595.599,"end":3622.038,"text":"請假超過一年也沒有關係這是什麼荒謬的法治我在事發法治委員會針對這件事情提出質詢的時候因為政務人員沒有法治的話去適用一般有身份保障有身份保障一般公務員的請假規則這是可笑至極"},{"start":3623.902,"end":3640.621,"text":"按照我們公務人員請假規則因為疾病需要治療 需要休養我們將心比心都可以認同可以請病假每年28天那但是呢"},{"start":3641.69,"end":3663.127,"text":"如果是重大疾病的話依照規定核給的病假 試假 休假 補假全部休完了以後長官可以核准延長病假其期間兩年內合併計算不得超過一年對於有身份保障的事務官在遇到重大疾病的時候給予這樣的保障我個人是認同的"},{"start":3664.209,"end":3683.418,"text":"但是這個規定你把它硬套到政務人員身上特別是院長級部長級的身上你就知道這件事情有多荒謬你要用公務人員請教規則那我第一個問題想要請教的是請問監察院院長的長官是誰是哪一位長官"},{"start":3690.287,"end":3707.922,"text":"特別核准可以請延長病假兩年內合併不得超過一年這個長官存在嗎這個長官存在嗎如果這個長官存在真的要用這個請假規則的話請問這個長官就所何止是來欽德總統嗎還是因為請假的是院長因為是院長位高權重"},{"start":3717.597,"end":3742.844,"text":"下面的公務人員即使看了搖頭也沒有辦法也沒有辦法只能讓他照這個荒謬的規定這個荒謬的規定我上一次請監察院函附按照他們依照所謂的公務人員請假規則到底可以請假到什麼時候監察院給我的公文完全不敢回覆"},{"start":3743.973,"end":3768.292,"text":"完全不敢回覆這個具體的問題用抽象的文字想要遮掩很多殘酷的事實什麼叫做用抽象的文字要遮掩殘酷的事實依照監察院的函附抽象的文字我套用法規以及日曆算出來的我跟大家報告一下陳菊從2024年12月底開始請假"},{"start":3771.846,"end":3790.173,"text":"2025年有250個工作日依照監察院含附的內容陳菊院長每年可以請28天的病假7天的試假30天的休假我相信這個假期所有全國的勞工看了都非常的羨慕"},{"start":3791.277,"end":3816.752,"text":"也就是在250個工作天裡面他可以請完65天250個工作天裡面我講的是工作天我講的是工作天不是日曆日250個工作天他可以請65天的假日他請完65天以後再請延長病假"},{"start":3817.938,"end":3846.179,"text":"所以扣掉265扣掉65他只需要請185天的延長病假兩年內合併的延長病假請不可以超過一年所以到2026年也就是今年245個工作天他可以再請65天的假日再請65天的假日扣掉了以後他可以再請180天的延長病假"},{"start":3847.096,"end":3873.722,"text":"我跟大家報告他延長病假不用用滿他任期就借滿他任期就借滿那代表什麼意思呢代表按照我國現行的法制一個監察院院長沒有辦法在院長的職位上面履行他工作的職責可以一直請假一直請假請假到他任期借滿為止都沒有關係"},{"start":3875.888,"end":3900.437,"text":"在我國目前的法治狀態下面是合法的我們是法律人依法論法是合法的但我相信全國的人民會想要問一個問題為什麼這樣會是合法的這是什麼法治狀態這是什麼落後的法治狀態搞到這麼離譜的事情竟然是合法的"},{"start":3902.734,"end":3922.645,"text":"這是中華民國走到2026年的法治水準嗎回到2012年考試院行政院所提出的政務人員法草案裡面規範的就很清楚因健康或其他原因難以執行職權者 拜託"},{"start":3928.325,"end":3955.805,"text":"這個職務就換這個職務就換有能力履行這個職務的人來做了這只是一個簡單的例子凸顯出來目前為什麼要推動要完成這個政務人員法我剛剛在動詞的時候啊除了推動我還加完成兩個字啊因為我希望這一屆的國會不要再只是推動"},{"start":3957.898,"end":3979.923,"text":"推動了十幾年原地踏步一事無成造成了荒謬的法治狀態束手無策政務人員負政治責任跟一般文官的中立性質不同我相信"},{"start":3981.261,"end":4010.16,"text":"這是公民的ABC不需要多談但是即使是政務人員還是有一條紅線你沒有辦法跨過而那條紅線就是在政務人員法裡面要好好規範的事項即使是一個政務人員可以在他上班的時間在社群媒體上鼓吹無差別的對在野黨的立委發動大罷免嗎"},{"start":4013.786,"end":4040.511,"text":"這是在我國目前的民主法治下可以容許政務人員做的事嗎拿納稅人的錢在你的位置上期待你的是你負起責任把你的事情做好而不是拿納稅人的錢上班的時間在自己的辦公室"},{"start":4043.866,"end":4069.521,"text":"進行政治鬥爭這是台灣這一兩年可能我們過去從來沒有想像過荒腔走板的行徑走到2026年我希望這部法律案不要再拖下去了"},{"start":4070.677,"end":4099.907,"text":"不要再拖下去了能夠在這一屆的國會啊完成立法最後再次的感謝今天與會的學者專家波榮來立法院提供各位寶貴的意見各位寶貴的意見在立法院公報上面的登載都會成為接下來立法委員在修正法律的時候重要的參酌謝謝那有請陳朝健前副主委"},{"start":4102.371,"end":4102.476,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":4112.816,"end":4135.652,"text":"主席在場各位委員我們機關代表還有各位專家學者以及媒體先進大家早安大家好今天本人應邀來到這個立法院就政務人員權利義務法制化公聽會的議題來表示意見那我就按照"},{"start":4136.592,"end":4153.242,"text":"這一個貴單位給我的討論提綱的次序依次來做說明在討論提綱裡頭第一個提到的一個問題是政務人員的專法是不是有必要這個予以立法"},{"start":4154.002,"end":4169.091,"text":"就必要性而言它的必要程度比较低也就是说现阶段并没有这一个立砖法的一个必要那倘若要这一个立砖法的话恐怕比较适合用"},{"start":4169.711,"end":4194.92,"text":"基尊法的一個形式來出現規範的一個對象包括中央的政務人員也應該要給予地方的政務人員但是必須排除三類的人員一類是獨立機關的成員不論是憲法上的獨立機關也就是總統提名"},{"start":4196.781,"end":4221.642,"text":"立法院同意任命之人員第二類是這個經行政院這個提名立法院同意的政務人員這是屬於獨立機關的這個部分有兩小類那第二類呢是有任期保障的這個人員像我們檢查總長審計長這些他是有憲法上有法律上的一個任期保障"},{"start":4222.711,"end":4248.672,"text":"那他們也應該要這個排除在外那第三類呢是有關民選的這個首長他也應該要這個排除在外那主要的一個原因是因為我們現有的地方制度法第84條他規定了民選的直轄市長縣市長鄉鎮市長那他是准用政務人員的一個懲戒"},{"start":4249.352,"end":4258.805,"text":"可是他也要適用公務員服務法他已經有相關的規定存在所以允排除在外換句話說"},{"start":4262.475,"end":4280.15,"text":"立法院此次委員會所召開的第一個這個議題這個來說制定專法的一個必要性目前是不高的必要性是比較低的那如果真的要這個立法以低密度的基準法的一個形式來做規範"},{"start":4281.331,"end":4302.311,"text":"那倘若是用基準法的一個形式來做規範的話那相關的一個這個具體的規定以及法則的這個部分應該要回到各該這個法律這個比較這個適合這個我待會會就這個幾位委員所提的一個版本來做這個補充說明"},{"start":4303.82,"end":4328.193,"text":"那貴委員會所提的第二個這個討論提綱是假設有政務人員專法的話那他的主管機關應該是誰裁罰機關到底又應該是誰那這個部分呢我就先說明一下我自己的經驗那各位這一個想想看各位聽過一部法律叫做政治獻金法吧"},{"start":4329.233,"end":4349.286,"text":"政治獻金法就是在規範你參選人還有政黨他們如何在一定的期間來收受這個政治獻金有相關的一個規定那政治獻金法的法律主管機關是內政部"},{"start":4350.006,"end":4374.558,"text":"政治獻金法的執行機關跟裁罰機關是監察院但是政治獻金法的相關問題在我擔任中央選舉委員會副主任委員兼機關發言人的時候我是最常被問到政治獻金法的大家都以為中選會是政治獻金法的主管機關"},{"start":4375.979,"end":4391.557,"text":"其实不是我们国家对于很多的一个法律它的一个规定包括主管机关包括执行机关有时候有它的一个历史渊源有时候有它分工合作的必要性"},{"start":4392.137,"end":4413.407,"text":"跟這個經驗傳承還有人力組織功能等配置考量會有組織功能最適化的這個結果所以我們應該可以尊重這樣的一個安排不用堅持主管機關跟裁罰機關執行機關等等等必須為同一機關"},{"start":4416.408,"end":4424.753,"text":"那這個是這個我提出來的這個見解那同樣的這個道理如果是以我個人的這個經驗這個來說我前一任的這個職務是擔任中選會副主委"},{"start":4431.417,"end":4455.688,"text":"那各位可能會以為總統選罷法跟公職選罷法的法律主管機關是中選會其實也不是法律的這個主管機關不論是總統選罷法或者是公職選罷法它的這個主管機關都是內政部那中選會作為獨立機關它是散開兩部法律的一個執行這個機關"},{"start":4458.649,"end":4485.81,"text":"各該條文裏頭的裁罰是由有權機關來進行法定事項的處理都有它的規範所以回到主辦單位所提的假設有政務人員專法它的主管機關到底是要定考試院還是人事總處裁罰機關是要監察院還是其他機關"},{"start":4487.231,"end":4516.451,"text":"對於這個部分我沒有個人的堅持意見但是我相信如果有專法的話有基準法的話應該要有機關協調安排相關的主管機關跟執行機關這部分我們尊重行政機關的分工合作因為前提在於政務人員專法它制定了一個必要性就現階段而言並不高"},{"start":4517.613,"end":4521.482,"text":"第三個 討論提綱也是由主辦單位提出來的"},{"start":4525.327,"end":4548.844,"text":"政務人員的一個忠誠義務查核義務禁止行為免職規定等修正建議是不是有一些個人的意見可以來提供給大家那我順道補充一下剛剛有關專家學者或者是委員的發言有一些內容可以做一些適切的補充"},{"start":4550.845,"end":4568.002,"text":"在我們這個國家公元2000年以前政務年資不中斷我是指政務年資不中斷那可以超過10年20年的確實是比比皆是那公元2000年這一個之後呢"},{"start":4568.683,"end":4589.126,"text":"那政務年資不中斷不論是中央地方的政務年資合計能夠超過十年的其實是非常非常的少那本人是填為其中之一那做這樣的一個發言好像會涉及到我個人的一個權利義務但是我認為"},{"start":4590.787,"end":4608.701,"text":"這個按照這個大法官四字601號解釋的一個精神如果有人問我政務官的一個權益義務應該做什麼樣的一個保障時我認為窮盡義務迴避義務如果無法達到迴避的一個目的那我應該要把我的良心的看法"},{"start":4609.941,"end":4627.67,"text":"這個來告訴這個外界讓大家這個來參酌我認為現階段相關的一個法律都已經有做規範了如果我們在這個做規範可能會有一些新的這個法律漏洞這個在法律競合狀態之下來出現"},{"start":4628.59,"end":4655.64,"text":"因為我們政務官這個現在適用的相關的這個法律相當的繁多包括公務人員行政中立法也就是各位所稱的政治中立的這個部分包括公務員這個服務法含各位這個剛剛所提到的公務員請假規則的這個部分那包括政務人員有自己的這個專屬的一個法律叫做政務人員退休撫恤這個條例"},{"start":4657.08,"end":4684.898,"text":"但是要跟各位報告的是政務人員的這個權利義務就權利而言並沒有各位想像的那麼好以我為例絕對不會有月退不會有月退即使我的政務年資合計不中斷超過11年那第二個是以我的權利假如就退休撫恤而言並不多是非常非常微薄的一次退"},{"start":4685.518,"end":4706.735,"text":"但是政務官他之所以擔任政務官是因為以政治為職業以政治為志業這是政治哲學家韋伯的一個名言如果再請我回任政務官我還是會回任這個政務官因為政務官這個在從事政務的一個推動是為國家為設計為人民來做事"},{"start":4709.977,"end":4728.954,"text":"最後如果要制定相關法律有關的論點建議再多多聆聽各界的聲音以上 謝謝我們請劉益中律師"},{"start":4744.617,"end":4768.497,"text":"主席 各位機關的長官各位在座的學者專家們 大家好我是劉益中律師今天很榮幸受立法院指邀來針對政務人員的相關專法訂定提供一些我自己比較粗淺的意見在座各位的專家學者都是我的老師所以就學理的部分就是政務人員"},{"start":4770.012,"end":4798.214,"text":"一些學歷政務人員跟例如說廣義政務人員跟政務官它的一個差別這些東西基本上在書面報告以及各位前面的一些先進的學者專家都已經說明過了因為我本身是一個職業律師所以我比較想要從條文的角度以及法條的訂定的角度還有實務運用的角度去看說這一次的相關的草案因為這次主要有兩個草案一個是政務人員行為基準法草案"},{"start":4799.135,"end":4799.618,"text":"主要是有13..."},{"start":4802.104,"end":4829.658,"text":"13條的政務人員行為基準法的草案以及第二個是政務人員法草案然後政務人員法草案這個就是翁委員等18人理據的政務人員法草案主要有這兩部草案然後去訂定這個政務人員專法我想要比較從草案的角度去論述說去論述這個提綱也就是說有沒有這個訂定的必要或是這個訂定上或執行上可能會產生什麼樣的困難可能產生什麼樣的困難"},{"start":4830.918,"end":4852.891,"text":"首先就政務人員行為基準法草案也就是說總共有13條草案條文這個草案其實前面兩條文是相關的立法目的以及相關的適用對象這個適用對象包含了要立法院同意任命的一個我們所謂的學理上叫做廣義政務人員以及是單純政治任命的一個政務官"},{"start":4854.372,"end":4869.632,"text":"好 那第三條以下從第三條第三條其實是參佐公務員服務法所訂定的那公務員服務法其實本身就包含政務官因為公務員服務法本身就包含政務官的一個適用範圍在內那第四條以下一直到這個"},{"start":4871.107,"end":4895.341,"text":"第四條以下一直到第十一條第四條以下一直到第十條那第四條以下一直到第十條其實本身是參酌所謂的公務人員行政中立法第四條以下去做的這個訂定那大概文字上大致上都差不多那有些細部的一些修正但主要參酌的這個對象是公務人員行政中立法那公務人員行政中立法第十八條針對這個"},{"start":4899.542,"end":4917.074,"text":"所謂的憲法上任命的一些我們所謂的廣義的政務人員其實已經有准用了所以這邊的條文主要是第四條到第十條以下主要是針對我們一般講的政務官然後去用所謂的公務人員行政中立法的一個相關的內容規範然後去訂定這個政務人員專法這個部分"},{"start":4920.586,"end":4944.753,"text":"有沒有直接訂定的必要那我認為說如果政務官在整個依法行政的一個過程當中當然有所謂的行政中立或政治中立的必要性但是有沒有必要直接訂一個所謂的行為及行為法政務人員行為基準法草案或是直接在公務人員行政中立法第18條去擴大一個準用對象我覺得可能是比較直接的方法"},{"start":4946.114,"end":4952.941,"text":"這個所謂的政務人員行為基準法的草案主要是第11條第11條是其他法規比較沒有的第11條它規範的是政務人員得隨時請辭政務人員得隨時請辭這個"},{"start":4959.571,"end":4985.051,"text":"就算沒有這個條文的規範那政務人員本來就可以隨時請辭本來就可以隨時請辭所以這個條文有沒有訂定的必要那第二項是說政務人員有下列各款情勢之一應主動請辭好 那這邊是用應主動請辭也就是說如果有第十一條的第二項一到四款的事由的話那政務人員是沒有一個選擇權他一定要主動請辭那這邊在實務上執行上會有個困難那也就是說那所政務人員他不做這個動作那要怎麼辦"},{"start":4986.652,"end":5015.792,"text":"證務人員如果不做這個動作那要怎麼辦我們該如何去執行這個條文也就是說例如說因為他的條款是所決策錯誤重大失誤或是對部署的執行政策疏於監督等等首先這個條文的構成要件它的明確性本來就是用一些不確定法律概念在做一些規範這些不確定法律概念本來可能就是要經過相關的函式或是司法院相關的解釋再進一步去做具體化這個東西的解釋空間非常大"},{"start":5016.212,"end":5037.565,"text":"那今天到底這個政務人員他有沒有發生重大失誤他有沒有發生重大失誤那可能某些人認為有可能某些人認為沒有那如果今天是有些人認為有有些人認為沒有那他到底要不要主動請辭好 那如果他大部分假設以民意來講好了民意80%認為這個政務人員有重大失誤那他如果不主動請辭的話那該怎麼辦"},{"start":5039.406,"end":5066.558,"text":"那其實主要的方法還是怎麼樣呢還是監察院去行使彈劾權將他送到所謂的懲戒法院然後依公務員懲戒法去做處理所以針對這個政務人員應主動辭職這個部分我覺得最後在實務適用上可能這個條文在適用上沒有辦法這麼的具體適用那沒有辦法那麼具體適用最後可能還是回歸所謂的公務員懲戒法的方式去使這個政務人員例如說將他撤職等等所以這一個"},{"start":5067.879,"end":5088.718,"text":"公務人員行為基準法我個人如果從我個人的一個意見來講的話我認為說如果能夠去修正所謂的公務人員行政中立法然後去擴大它的一個準用對象或是針對某些條文把它擴大適用到一個政務官身上那我覺得可能會比訂定這個行為基準法草案更加的一個快速這是我的一個"},{"start":5089.853,"end":5099.62,"text":"相關的一個針對這部法案的意見再來第二個就是翁委員等18人拟據的政務人員法草案這個政務人員法草案它其實規範就更廣了規範就更廣"},{"start":5102.354,"end":5123.622,"text":"那一樣它的一個適用人員也是一樣包含我們所謂的廣義的政務人員跟我們的一個政務官一樣是包含這個部分那這部法律原則上首先第一個問題就是它的第五條它的第五條它針對了一些任用的一些消極資格做了一些規定也就是說某些有下列這種14款的人員不能任命為政務人員"},{"start":5125.603,"end":5133.083,"text":"那我覺得這個條文基本上是參照於公務人員任用法的一個相關規定把公務人員任用法相關規定用到這個政務人員身上"},{"start":5134.056,"end":5159.834,"text":"那首先第一個就權力分立上他會不會去限制到所謂的行政機關的提名權就是你會不會用法律去限制到行政機關的提名權那我們大法官解釋613號解釋是說立法院可以去行使同意權嘛可是他不能去剝奪到所謂的這個行政院的或是這個總統的一個提名權那這個東西第五條的規定會不會在權力分立上有可能會去限制到這個總統或是這個行政院長的一個提名權這是第一個"},{"start":5160.655,"end":5186.929,"text":"然後第二個因為這部法律當中如果你去細看很多條款例如說第十款好了第十款依法停止任用或受休職處分尚未其滿者不得任命為證物人員這邊可能會有一些法條上的一些這個法條上的一些衝突因為按照我們的公務員懲戒法證物人員是不會受休職處分的證物人員是不會受休職處分這個第十款的訂定可能在一億上就會可能就是需要一些"},{"start":5188.272,"end":5206.419,"text":"這個修正那我還是回到我最一開始的最基本的一個這個問題就是這個第五條不得任命為政務人員的這個部分有沒有可能會去侵害到這個行政機關的一個提名權我覺得這個是第一個可能在權力分立上會有的問題然後再來我覺得比較大的問題是第八條"},{"start":5207.399,"end":5225.645,"text":"第八條基本上政務人員提名或任命之前各機關應該辦理品德跟忠誠的查核品德跟忠誠查核一樣我們政務人員有兩塊一塊是需要立法院同意的需要立法院同意我想各位委員基本上針對品德跟忠誠查核在整個委員在各位委員在審核的時候應該就是會辦理查核"},{"start":5227.285,"end":5250.121,"text":"所以這一類需要所謂的專業性的需要專業性的這一類所謂的廣義政務人員其實委員在整個審核的過程當中應該就會辦理品德跟忠誠查核的例如說之前的這個大法官提名之前大法官提名其實各個委員就有針對這個大法官過往的事蹟然後去做相關的一些問責然後最後再投下贊成或反對票所以這個部分有沒有必要去訂定針對這個"},{"start":5253.023,"end":5278.385,"text":"這個所謂的這個徐立法院同意任命的政務人員有沒有必要有第八條的一個適用那如果是一般的所謂的這個政治任命的一些政務官例如說部長等等的等級那這個品德跟忠誠查核要誰來辦理要誰來辦理考試院來辦理嗎例如說今天一個內政部內政部的一個部長的一個任命那這內政部長的任命然後由考試院主管機關去辦理忠誠查核這個論理上好像"},{"start":5279.888,"end":5305.377,"text":"怪怪的然後再來所謂的品德跟忠誠查核一樣它是一個不確定法律概念那這個東西要如何查核是以刑事前科為例嗎那它的一個查核範圍跟查核標準要如何訂定我覺得這個可能未來都是需要再進一步去討論的部分那再來就是這部法律基本上有針對政務人員的一些公務員服務法有將公務員服務法一些相關規定規範到這一部"},{"start":5308.138,"end":5330.891,"text":"政務人員法當中規範到這部政務人員法當中並且加上了一些罰環的規定那我再重申一次就是公務員服務法本身就有規範到政務人員那將公務員服務法的相關規定再規範到這部政務人員專法當中並且加上罰環的規定那我們知道政務官基本上一般是負的是政治責任那如果今天政務官有一些廢辭職務或有一些不恰當的行為"},{"start":5331.631,"end":5348.343,"text":"原則上如果執政黨不將政務官換掉針對執政黨下次的一個選舉選民就會對他做一些政治責任的追究所以政務官主要是負政治責任他如果有一些違法失職的情況除非他被彈劾然後依照各個司法機關去"},{"start":5351.324,"end":5367.225,"text":"處罰之外你去對他做以罰還我個人認為是比較不恰當的地方我個人認為是比較不恰當因為他本身本來就是負政治責任最後我再講最後30秒最後第18條關於免職的部分免職的部分我認為也是有疑義的因為你用一個"},{"start":5367.945,"end":5389.452,"text":"類似行政處分的方式將一個本來就沒有固定任期的政務官與免職我認為在整個法制上的疑慮也是有的以上是我個人的一些意見針對政務人員專法我認為或許就現有的一些法規去做一些補充修正我認為可能比較容易達成這些立法的目的以上 謝謝好 有請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":5402.198,"end":5423.07,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天這個公聽會我們已經足足等了30年了那早在民國84年98年101年考試院都曾經推過專法那到現在115年了我們還在這邊討論到底專法有沒有設置的必要我們實在是等了太久那這超過30年的怠惰我們換來的是什麼"},{"start":5423.73,"end":5438.582,"text":"我們看到的是行政中立從一個制度上面ABC的概念變成了一個國家級的大笑話我們看到外交部護照印不出來就怪立法院我們看到內政部租金補貼沒錢也怪立法院"},{"start":5439.463,"end":5457.646,"text":"我們看到行政院為了搞搞他的那個無差別的大罷免為了配合執政黨的無差別大罷免他叫大家不要送解凍案然後逼得一堆公務員出來爆料說長官叫他們不准送解凍案到立法院來然後才不得不把解凍案送過來"},{"start":5459.079,"end":5486.586,"text":"所以我們今天看到連行政院長都不執行立法院三讀通過的法律如此荒謬帶頭違法不編列預算還公開把立法院監督國會叫做迴憲亂政這麼如此的不中立的狀況下就是我們怠惰了30年的下場民主國家沒有人這樣這個只會出現在獨裁國家那久而久之我們的行政中立變成一個只管基層高層都管不到的一個雙標"},{"start":5488.126,"end":5512.224,"text":"的概念那公務員 基層公務員 兢兢業業那個派出所警察為了行政總理兢兢業業但是高層政務官呢隨便愛怎麼樣就怎麼樣內政部長出來到處支持罷免的活動在那邊喊要做台灣國的主人讓總統變台灣國的總統等等的這些荒謬的言論都是這樣出來的先前花蓮那個"},{"start":5514.465,"end":5536.284,"text":"災情的時候民進黨的81人的群組那個截圖流出來裡面有立委裡面有高階的政務官在救災的當下他們不是討論怎麼樣協助救災他們討論的是要怎麼樣用有殺傷力的訊息來攻擊在野黨這就是我們現在講的行政中立嗎好 結果我們的行政院的政務官高官"},{"start":5538.294,"end":5551.196,"text":"還大言不慚的說收到還說要跟我們的四方部長跟我們內政部長來談要怎麼做這就是我們的行政中立嗎這些行為就是行政官直接介入到政黨的工坊"},{"start":5552.972,"end":5576.772,"text":"這個根本他們在談論的事情第一個跟公務根本無關第二個就是濫用行政資源第三個還嚴重侵害政府的公信力這樣的群組流出來還大言不慚的在那邊替自己辯解事實上我們看到的就是在那邊一群81人群組立委跟這些政務官搞在一起那邊思考怎麼樣做政治攻擊這就是我們現在的政府"},{"start":5577.472,"end":5603.429,"text":"所以今天的提綱我有三個主要核心的主張第一個 權責分明我們鎖定的是中央政治任命的官員而不是針對到民選的首長因為縣市首長是一票一票選出來的跟他關聯的有選罷法 有地方制度法所以我認為這個東西不需要納入本法的規範這個部分連上市內政部的報告也都認同我的這個想法"},{"start":5604.61,"end":5623.047,"text":"中央部會的這些首長這些政務 政委他們是官派他們不是民選他們沒有人管但是他們卻掌握了很龐大的行政資源所以這一群毫無民意基礎的這些權利者才是我們真正要規範的對象第二個政治責任"},{"start":5624.068,"end":5651.337,"text":"我希望要避免讓司法介入的問題因為我們不能讓政務官的去留就交給司法來決定因為我們現在目前司法人民信任度非常非常低這歷次的民調就是一次比一次難看那我們認為說現在的司法很容易被操弄我們不應該讓執政黨有利用這種檢查議題的機會用檢調系統來去干預到這些政務官的去留"},{"start":5653.01,"end":5669.132,"text":"再來 我主張建立要有明確的辭職機制當政務官的政策錯誤 言行失當他就應該要展現他的政治風範要主動請辭這才是民主國家責任政治的概念第三個我們要確立主管機關是考試院"},{"start":5670.287,"end":5693.585,"text":"我看到考試院這次的報告一直在那邊花了好大的篇幅一直說政務人員不歸考試院管從考試院推出的第一部這個中立法到現在已經超過30年了還在推來推去行政院推給考試院考試院推給行政院結果呢 推到最後是什麼沒有人管了啦這些政務官沒有人管了他們不用經過國家考試出來也沒有人管他變成太上皇"},{"start":5694.105,"end":5708.019,"text":"但是呢我再跟各位報告這些政務官他有沒有領國家薪水有啊他要不要服從公務員服務法要啊那公務員服務法的主管機關是誰考試院啊所以考試院你憑什麼推給行政院呢"},{"start":5709.184,"end":5727.537,"text":"所以考試院你明明是公服法的主管機關你不能說今天這個事情跟你無關尤其涉及官員這個體系的廉政跟倫理這考試院本來就是主管機關考試院如果說連論述什麼叫做兼職什麼叫做行政中立"},{"start":5729.498,"end":5748.478,"text":"這個都全部交給行政院去自己說了算那不就天下大亂了行政院那麼多機關自己解釋自己的這個部會說這個可以兼職那個部會說這個不能兼職那不就天下大亂了嗎所以我們公務員的解釋為什麼同意由考試院來就是我們全責要劃分然後"},{"start":5749.847,"end":5763.568,"text":"我還沒跟各位說這一次我就看到那個考試院的那個論述我真的覺得這會造成天下大亂大家要注意到今天權敘部的報告他說要交給各用人機關自行判斷"},{"start":5765.287,"end":5781.343,"text":"他不要管考試院全局部不想管他這個中不中立交給各機關去判斷那我請問你今天行政院長會認為自己的複密在81人群組的那個發言配合立委的那個要做政治攻擊的發言他會認為有違法嗎不會吧"},{"start":5782.404,"end":5804.082,"text":"法務部長各部長會認為自己有違法嗎在群組裡面幫忙一起喊打喊殺在野黨會認為自己違法嗎不會啊所以久而久之變成是求援兼裁判所以我覺得這個全區部的報告真的是不對這種需要統一解釋的東西怎麼會交給各個用人機關自己去決定呢"},{"start":5806.004,"end":5830.277,"text":"這個丟回去給行政院這個不叫做回歸責任政治這個叫做縱容政治護航我們現在看到每天都在我們這塊土地上面上演所以我希望考試院站出來用一個客觀解釋的角度而不是讓行政機關自己愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋替自己擦脂抹粉替自己的違法行為護航我不要是這個樣子立法院"},{"start":5831.987,"end":5860.304,"text":"這邊我們絕對不接受兩個憲政機關像打乒乓球一樣把行政總理這件這麼重要的事情行政院丟給考試院考試院又丟回給行政院讓國家處於無法可管的這個狀態下面我自己當公務員當了25年不包括來做民意代表我做了25年的公務員我很清楚國家要穩定發展靠的是制度絕對不是單靠個人操守不是單靠個人"},{"start":5861.723,"end":5866.598,"text":"自己的嚴格要求就能夠讓國家穩定發展我們一切要靠的是制度"},{"start":5867.904,"end":5896.663,"text":"所以我這次提的公務人員行為基準法我不是為了任何的政治攻防我只希望未來一個執政者不管哪一個黨執政都不能夠濫用行政的權利然後來做他的政治上面的攻擊我希望讓行政回歸專業讓公務體系找回尊嚴讓人民相信政府的存在是為了公共利益而存在行政中立拜託不能再等下一個十年了好 謝謝各位"},{"start":5900.307,"end":5901.35,"text":"有請孫維教授發言"},{"start":5913.915,"end":5927.4,"text":"主席 在座的各位學者專家 學術先進 政府官員 媒體朋友大家好非常榮幸來到立法院的公聽會來參加討論政務人員權利義務法制化的議題"},{"start":5934.723,"end":5955.332,"text":"我们就学理而言这个政务人员跟事务人员他都是行政官的分类他相较于司法官的话他是行政官的分类对于事务人员我国已有严谨的规范文官体制的法律体系自不代言"},{"start":5956.568,"end":5977.438,"text":"但是政务人员他是随着政党选举的成败与政策变迁而进退的公务员而当代的行政事务环境是千变万化而且随着科技的进步还有社会价值的持续发展"},{"start":5978.298,"end":6007.059,"text":"担任决策跟领导的政务人员他实在是需要更为宽广的决策空间譬如说数位发展文化教育科学技术甚至于青年世代等等的政策领域但是现今各种版本的这种政务人员法草案当中大多数是针对中央跟地方的政务人员"},{"start":6007.719,"end":6033.516,"text":"加诸它是消极性的禁止规定这种专法适不适合多变复杂的行政环境是有待商榷而且现今有关于公务员服务法当中已经涵盖了政务人员"},{"start":6034.216,"end":6061.746,"text":"所以如果我们再制定一份专法的话会不会有跌床驾屋的一些思考这个是我们值得商榷的而我们由更为宽广宏观的视野来思考所谓的公务人员政务人员的专法的话我以为政务人员他应该是广招社会的显打"},{"start":6063.009,"end":6065.08,"text":"为整体的国家社会"},{"start":6066.513,"end":6093.601,"text":"的公共利益針對過去 當前跟未來的公共問題來貢獻智慧相關的專法如果過於嚴苛它可能妨礙 阻絕有致於這種公益精神的社會顯達為當代的公共領域獻身這也是我們所需要進一步的去思考的"},{"start":6095.481,"end":6110.879,"text":"个人认为要强化今天政务人员的本身来说的话他的专业性其实非常的重要如果我们退一步而言的话退一步而言的话我们"},{"start":6111.48,"end":6136.197,"text":"如果真的要设立所谓的政务人员的相关的法律规范我们是不是也可以考虑使用基本法的这种性质来表示这种基本法基本上面它是做一些原则性宣示性或者是精神性来列举政务人员应该遵守的权利跟义务"},{"start":6136.937,"end":6146.125,"text":"尤其是也有關於他的這種現行公務人員的專業性的基礎能力的培養我們可以把它定在相關的"},{"start":6148.261,"end":6175.476,"text":"基本法当中比如说第一就是对于这个宪政法制的知识宪政法制的知识现在是当不论是在哪个领域的政务人员都是相当重要的第二个是政策分析的能力特别是对你任命的那个特定的政策领域的政策分析能力这个是第二点第二点的专业第三呢"},{"start":6175.876,"end":6200.154,"text":"是有关于预算审查的这种知识这个也是非常重要的第四是一个公共伦理的素养公共伦理的素养刚刚有各位的先进也有提到我们现行现在的很多的等于说政治运作的一些所谓的乱象"},{"start":6201.194,"end":6226.414,"text":"但是如果我们就更深层次或者是高层次来思考的话一个完美完善严谨的法律体系往往是不完善不严谨的现实运作的结果所以我们今天要确保政务人员依法行政来保证人民来保证"},{"start":6227.234,"end":6255.046,"text":"人民对于政府施政的信赖的前提的话我觉得还是应该要有聚焦在政务人员的专业性这个角度专业性这个角度所以第一个我们是讨论的是不是制定政务人员专法的必要性我做出一些比较原则性的回答"},{"start":6256.006,"end":6264.091,"text":"然后他是不是应该接受中央如果有一部相关的规范的话"},{"start":6265.763,"end":6294.222,"text":"它是规范中央级跟地方级的政务人员的范畴我认为是应该的而且根据我们现在的宪法五权分立制衡的原则我们有关于政务人员的法的相关规范的主管机关它应该是由可能应该由考试院来担任裁罚的部分应该由"},{"start":6296.443,"end":6306.427,"text":"監察院來擔任而且我們現在有關於政務人員的所謂的這種忠誠義務等等跟我們的"},{"start":6308.445,"end":6325.753,"text":"行政中立一樣其實這個是一個非常抽象的一個概念它就好像我們談的學術倫理學術倫理我們不是談學術法律對不對"},{"start":6326.693,"end":6355.641,"text":"为什么呢因为我们刚刚讲的比如说忠诚啊或行政中立啊他也可能在不同的政策领域不同的时空背景甚至在不同的国内的这个政治情势甚至在全球的地缘下面而有所不同如果采用啊这种刚性的啊这个法律条文来予以规范的话他的合理性啊也是啊有在有待商榷的啊所以呢我认为啊如果呢"},{"start":6356.101,"end":6361.254,"text":"有必要对于政务人员予以规范的话"},{"start":6363.84,"end":6387.506,"text":"除了我們對於現行的法律 譬如說公務員服務法來予以修正 來予以補強我們退一步而言的話 如果真的要規範的話我認為由政務人員權利義務規範法也是一條路徑以上 前件 敬恭各位參考 謝謝好 有請張彥祥教授發言"},{"start":6402.045,"end":6415.493,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場各位的委員還有各位專家學者各位先進在場還有我的過去的老師然後還有謝謝各位官員跟媒體朋友今天很榮幸有這個機會來這邊"},{"start":6417.942,"end":6433.713,"text":"應該有開跟大家來報告一下個人的一些粗淺的想法一開始我就順著這個問題的提綱來就是做報告時間上應該是不可能全部報告完所以我不會全部的都講如果"},{"start":6434.954,"end":6456.93,"text":"其他沒有報告到的部分就請參閱我的書面資料第一個關於說制定政務人員專法的必要性我個人跟之前的幾位先進是比較接近的想法是政務人員的管理規範在現行制度其實已經有相關制度可以運作了政務人員他適用其他機關有提出類似的見解他適用懲戒法"},{"start":6457.59,"end":6483.426,"text":"請假規則也適用公務員服務法那也適用這個選罷法跟政治獻金法那比較有爭議的是行政中立法因為行政中立法只有在第18條的部分將所謂依法律獨立行使職權的這些政務人員加以准用但即便是如此其實如果認為說這個其他部分的政務人員有需要去准用部分的規定的話那其實只要修改准用規定就可以了"},{"start":6484.546,"end":6510.594,"text":"實際上17條它其實已經把一些不屬於傳統公務員的人用准用的方式把它列進去換句話說只要在准用的主體範圍做變更應該可以處理掉部分的需求再來司法人員實際上主要是由法官法來規範我在整個書面資料裡面有特別談到我認為司法人員的特殊性至少如果要制定相關的專法司法人員可能要想辦法排除或者是用另外的規範來處理"},{"start":6512.094,"end":6531.699,"text":"好 那另外一個是這個定義的部分也就是所謂的這個人員的範疇的部分那目前現有對政務人員範疇比較精確的定義是在政務人員退職撫恤條例那實際上剛有委員提到說關於從這個1998年以來是政務人員嘗試的立法做了很多次"},{"start":6532.199,"end":6551.886,"text":"我們發現說其實要精確的定義不是一件容易的事情那我們看其實三個版我這裡手上拿到的是有三個草案的版本那其實有兩個草案是比較基本上是一樣的但是也不完全就是每個草案都不完全相同那跟這個所謂退職輔具條例也不完全相同"},{"start":6553.027,"end":6575.189,"text":"這種情況下可能要嘗試把它統一一點以翁委員的草案為例實際上他做了一些有些我是贊同譬如說考試院提醒總統任命列入的把它放進來應該是為了把保訓委員拉進來但是行政中立法18條實際上解釋上也其實可以包括保訓委員如果要增列的話其實退職輔助條例可能也要協同的去處理"},{"start":6576.15,"end":6599.133,"text":"再來就是加入民選地方首長這是很有趣的列入剛剛有委員有提到說他不贊成在這個地方確實地方民選首長不是一個部分教科書上的定義我不反對但是如果真的要放進去參照該草案18條的免職規定可能會血流成河"},{"start":6600.093,"end":6619.543,"text":"再來就是我特別會強調的是我認為司法人員他跟一般的政務人員不相同他也沒有隨政黨從進退的問題而且他要獨立審 依法獨立審判所以在這種情況之下用法官法處理會比較合適再下一個問題是政務人員法的主管機關實際上我個人認為說因為我們的政務人員"},{"start":6624.305,"end":6647.344,"text":"雖然叫做政務人員其實它每一個不同的性質都差異很大所以還是回歸各自政務人員的管理機制來處理會比較合適舉例來說其實法官的話他的管理大概還是要回歸司法院因為法官法的做法也是這樣那換句話說你要有一個統一的主管機關會有點困難很難想像像人事情人總署他要來管理大法官或者是管理監察委員"},{"start":6648.184,"end":6674.426,"text":"這很難想像再來裁罰的話監察院是不是合作一個裁罰單位我比較認同監察院他的意見就是說在這種情況之下其實裁罰應該由各法規的主管機關來做會比較合適再來是關於忠誠義務查核禁止行為免職等規定當然剛剛已經有先進提到說這些規定如果跟各法規實際上有重複可能會有跌床駕屋的問題"},{"start":6676.327,"end":6697.537,"text":"再來就是說如果有不足之數其實修改各法規大概就足以做到但是如果這個要談說各草案裡面我覺得比較深入需要討論的幾個我自己找了三個條文一個是歐委員版草案的第18條還有羅委員跟委員版本都放在11條這個在不同機關間接有提到它可能會有比例原則跟這一個"},{"start":6698.958,"end":6720.397,"text":"所謂明確性原則的問題那我們就一來看第一個歐美原版草案18條規範政務人員應該免職的室友這是一個非常強烈的法律效果他直接就免職他用的是違法廢止職務或其他失職行為單純從這個違法上我看不出來到底是行政不法還是行政不法也沒有程度上的區分"},{"start":6721.238,"end":6750.123,"text":"那這種情況之下可能會有比例原則的疑慮還有明確性原則的疑慮那在司法院的書面意見也有提到因為違法的態度很多當然我比較善意的去解釋如果說把後面的這個其他事實行為去做解釋的話它應該限於職務上的行為但是這個東西在構成要件上可能要寫得更清楚一點不然的話其實輕度的違反行政法上義務算不算因為其實超速或者是違規停車都是違法那再來刑法上得一顆罰金的犯罪算不算"},{"start":6750.823,"end":6766.144,"text":"譬如說這個未招文書這種情況下該不該免職這個東西可能必須要去思考再來就是說違法的時間點理解上當然是上任之後的職務進行之間但是沒有辦法從文藝上去做確認"},{"start":6767.786,"end":6787.934,"text":"甚至是過去發生很久違法行為假設今天因為有放入民選地方首長假設一個民選地方首長他過去有暴力犯罪的前科這種情況之下該不該免職這個要思考我個人認為比較正確的立法模式其實是他草案的第五條就是說他有特定的罪名而且有罪犯有罪判決確定這樣子的條件"},{"start":6789.955,"end":6813.508,"text":"那也是一般法律會去做的設計但是第18條沒有這樣的情況它就可能會變成說假設我通過了第5條可以認命結果上任之後因為18條免職有不可能發生這樣的狀況可能要再思考再來廢植植物的部分我認為大概要去跟刑法130條的公務員廢植植物量能災害罪去做一個某種程度上的等同就是它同時要能夠成立"},{"start":6814.128,"end":6833.642,"text":"才去論罪會比較好不然廢止職務會有其他的不確定性再來是或者如果是要退一步來演的話至少要達到國賠法二條二項所謂待遇止盈職務的情況而且大概要有這個判決是一審或者是說判決確定去做一個確認會比較好不然假設今天某民選地方首長因為救災的問題"},{"start":6835.683,"end":6861.218,"text":"然後他被要求追究其廢止食物的罪假設起訴了就應該免職嗎這個大家也要思考一下會不會有一點過於強烈再來所謂的受羈押或起訴這個因於免職那羈押的問題其實這個在座的法律專家所以就是大家應該都很理解羈押的目的是保全證據所以他其實不意味他當然會構成犯罪而且羈押之後可能會停押那再來"},{"start":6862.609,"end":6889.437,"text":"這裡只放了羈押可是假設今天有羈押原因沒有羈押的必要他可能會交保那就會變成說這個羈押要免職交保不免職這樣也有一點不太統一再來起訴一樣在司法院書面已經有提到就是說起訴的話他其實雖然起訴了已達起訴門檻可是他也是有可能無罪在這種情況下是不是應該就職業賦予免職的效果要再思考因為"},{"start":6890.417,"end":6918.257,"text":"过往的做法就是达到一个程度停职如果真的有罪确定那再免职这样可能是比较合理的做法再来就是其实我们的公务员规范针对政务人员实际上你可以为了惩戒处分是免职撤职剥夺减少退职金等等的在这个惩戒法的九条第四项反过来说如果你所有的违法情节都是免职那反过来这九条四项要不要跟着修正还是说它就会变成一个据文这个也必须要去思考"},{"start":6919.237,"end":6933.492,"text":"再來另外一點我要特別強調的是說在另外兩個版本的草案有談到主動辭職的室友其中在這個第二項的第一二三款他剛剛其實有先進有提到這可能會有一個沒有一定判斷標準的問題"},{"start":6934.913,"end":6957.986,"text":"因為它某種程度上嘗試的把政治責任把它賦予法律責任有的時候這兩個會競合沒有問題可是我覺得還是要去區分政策的問題跟法律的問題因為在所謂的政策是否有錯誤主管政府是否發生重大的失誤有的時候見仁見智舉例來說我們縣市政府該不該提供免費的營養午餐"},{"start":6958.986,"end":6978.074,"text":"這個是一定要想一下因為如果今天認為這個是正確的政策那反對了會不會是如果說建設政務官沒做是不是決策的重大錯誤那反之如果認為這很民粹反之亦然嘛那如果做了會不會是一個決策的重大失誤這沒有必然的標準這沒有必然的標準所以我認為如果要這個"},{"start":6978.854,"end":7006.141,"text":"以這個為依據的話至少要加入一些法律責任的成立譬如說他構成懲戒或者是犯職務上之罪被定罪或者是涉及到某些國家培養責任然後他因為故意或重大過失被求償等等的情況再來這裡存在非常大的一個不確定法律概念而且這個時候其實可能會跟立法者實際運作可能會跟立法者的想像有一點落差因為在這個情況下行政機關會有很大的判斷餘地"},{"start":7007.361,"end":7033.466,"text":"好 那實驗上的關係我就今天就跟各位報告到這裡那其他詳細的部分請參與我的參考書面資料謝謝好 有請周陽山教授發言主席 各位委員 各位先進剛剛大家已經講了很多相關的問題"},{"start":7034.98,"end":7049.105,"text":"我想今天我們的立法它的主要的目的是要解決當前的問題那麼當前的問題第一個最嚴重的就是現在的政務人員跟這個機要人員之間開始發生混淆"},{"start":7050.287,"end":7078.456,"text":"在我擔任監察委員期間發覺一個最嚴重的現象就是很多的地方政府的首長用他的機要人員來迴避政務人員應該擔負的職責所以造成某些機要人員在從事政務人員的行為結果呢卻用低階的機要人員來迴避政治人員應該負擔的責任"},{"start":7080.805,"end":7098.191,"text":"所以今天我們在處理這個問題的時候首先要看一個立法的時空跟背景在29年前我擔任第三屆立法委員期間當時是國民黨執政出現了非常嚴重的一些政務人員不適任的問題"},{"start":7099.81,"end":7116.384,"text":"那麼當時我曾經跟民進黨的一些委員一起探討應該制定一個政務人員免職條例這個免職條例裡面具體的規定凡是政務人員違反了一些具體的法律"},{"start":7117.307,"end":7130.577,"text":"要負擔相關的責任而不肯去職在這個情況之下立法院過半數的委員可以經由這個政務人員免職條例迫其去職"},{"start":7131.721,"end":7159.281,"text":"我覺得這是今天我們在新的時空之下必須掌握的首要的原則就是要讓政務人員跟機要人員做明確的區分要讓政務人員負擔起應付的責任很多人會說透過選舉把這個政府換掉不就好了嗎但是換不掉那些特殊的擁有特殊背景的政務人員"},{"start":7160.402,"end":7187.791,"text":"這是今天的政治出現許多困境的關鍵所以在這個情況之下首先政務人員的界定必須清晰而且具體比如說現在的國安會諮詢委員現在的公平會委員現在的通傳會委員這些到底是不是政務官受不受政務官相關的各種法律的"},{"start":7190.575,"end":7202.122,"text":"規範還是三不管地帶根本沒有任何的法律來規範他們第二在過去二十年裡法官"},{"start":7203.208,"end":7229.91,"text":"逐渐的不再受到监察院的弹劾为什么呢因为法官法自己搞了一个叫职务法庭然后职务法庭主动去要求监察院对某些他们认为有问题的法官跟检察官来进行弹劾但是监察委员实际上已经不能主动弹劾法官检察官各位查一下监察院记录"},{"start":7231.091,"end":7255.601,"text":"這個法官法弄了以後法官變成一個特區監察委員不能主動來彈劾而必須是在職務法庭送交監察院再由監察院彈劾然後再送回這個職務法庭來進行相關的懲戒或懲處第三大家剛剛也講到了有關這個"},{"start":7259.861,"end":7276.556,"text":"政務官的界定是不是應該把這些獨立行使職權的這些官員排除可是我們看一下目前的中華民國憲法增修條文第五條第二項"},{"start":7277.848,"end":7290.442,"text":"司法院大法官任期八年不分届次个别计算不得连任但并为院长副院长之大法官不受任期之保障"},{"start":7292.293,"end":7309.87,"text":"司法院院長 副院長不受任期保障他到底是政務官還是受任期保護的特任官所以我們現在在真正的我們的立法體制裡面已經出現了許多漢格而不為大家所重視的地方"},{"start":7310.49,"end":7330.729,"text":"所以如果我們把政務人員法裡面直接把受任期保障的這些人排除那麼司法院長跟副院長不受任期保障如何排除第二 政務人員法的立法目的是要控制政治分贓"},{"start":7332.952,"end":7360.414,"text":"也就是說要讓在政治上因為裙帶關係跟捧黨政治所造成的腐爛的這個現象得到適當的約束所以要對政務人員的範圍規模 緣額要做具體的規範在這三位委員提的方案裡面都沒有"},{"start":7362.028,"end":7385.655,"text":"目前政府也沒有提出相關的規範我的具體建議是政務人員的總額不超過一千人第三就是政務人員如果違反了在政務人員法裡面所規定的這些要件立法委員得以過半數的總額"},{"start":7387.247,"end":7413.863,"text":"投票迫其去職這也就是剛剛我講的必須要有一個政務人員的免職條例的適用第四 政務人員的資格要件應該要採取正面的列表以及負面排除的雙項規定因為大家注意到因為現在很多的民選的議員"},{"start":7415.834,"end":7439.794,"text":"跟民選的首長在下一屆已經不能再選可是他們現在正在爭取擔任新的政務人員所以換句話說我們應該明白的規定凡是不得參選的人就不可以擔任政務人員所以一個是正向的規定一個是反向的排除的規定"},{"start":7441.752,"end":7465.867,"text":"第五政務人員法的主管機關非常清楚是考試院因為我們的五權憲法制度一方面它是一個制衡關係另外它也是一個分工合作所以無論是從制衡或者分工合作的角度政務人員法當然是屬於考試院的職責第六"},{"start":7466.997,"end":7496.098,"text":"政務人員本身是具備政治經驗跟政黨背景的所以除了有專法明文規定像是大法官監察委員考試委員應該超越黨派政治中立不得參與政黨的活動除了這些之外對於政務人員不應多做規範但卻應該明文規定政務人員不得指揮或者責令"},{"start":7497.287,"end":7519.062,"text":"常任文官来配合他的政治活动并且承担政治任务所以在本法中应该规范具体的法则第七立法院对于政务人员的提名以及同意权的行使"},{"start":7520.441,"end":7548.516,"text":"包括在审查程序中有关学者专家对提名人是否适格的表述应该具体的统整他们的意见并且列表作为一个专业评估的意见比如说我们面对大法官的时候我们咨询了比如说60位法官相关的这些法学者或者政治学者"},{"start":7550.031,"end":7571.804,"text":"就應該對他們是否適格進行投票然後公佈這個票數但是最後的決定權在立委本人所以立委在進行投票的時候那個投票才是最後的結果可是這些專業人員的意見卻可以提供社會大眾重要的參考"},{"start":7572.918,"end":7595.827,"text":"那麼在這個情況之下配合政務人員法進行調整的同時也應該在立法院職權行使法第四章中做具體的規範謝謝大家是 謝謝周老師好 那接下來我們請桂紅城董事長發言"},{"start":7607.839,"end":7628.821,"text":"主席 在場的各位學者 專家 各位老師還有我們一起來參加列席的專關主管機關的代表還有在場的媒體記者我是民主文教基金會桂鴻誠那麼我剛剛聽到吳宗憲委員他曾經提到《中國人民法》在民國84年他是從民國84年就算起的"},{"start":7629.181,"end":7646.44,"text":"沒有錯 民國84年那一次我有參與所以我對這個法案的話我是還是有些印象那麼民國84年的時候我那時候還在全序部所以我對這個法案我大致上了解它是我們前一任前一任全序部部長交代下來的"},{"start":7646.92,"end":7670.869,"text":"因為在解延以後解除戒嚴以後考試院他主動向當時的中國國民黨他也提了一個報告說要配合解除戒嚴那自由化了所謂政黨可以組黨了所以相關的文官體制要整建人事法制那個時候一個建議就是說要制定一個最基礎性的規範或許就叫做公務人員"},{"start":7671.949,"end":7688.627,"text":"基准法然后在这个架构里面我们另外又有分出来一个政务人员法或者是说常务人员把它定义在相关的所谓考试及格的甚至说约聘人员不需要考试及格也还有机要但它属于常务的"},{"start":7689.807,"end":7713.812,"text":"有這個概念架構也因此有了所謂政務人員法草案在民國84年我們也很急的也很積極的 不是很急然後完成了一個草擬送到考試院所以剛剛吳宗憲委員提到是民國84年開始30多年前了其中還有一個重要的一個法案是行政中立法那個在民國98年也是在國民黨執政的時代才通過的"},{"start":7716.272,"end":7740.421,"text":"我們是蠻訝異的現在全面掌握政府權力的是民進黨他為什麼一直在排斥這個法案呢而這個法案卻是在國民黨執政的時候他所推出來的《政務人員法》《公務人員行政中立法》甚至於《公務人員行政中立法》推出之後在15年之後在民國98年才通過剛好那時候我又在所以我有這個印象我也做一個背景說明也就是說"},{"start":7742.541,"end":7763.535,"text":"國民黨執政的時候他並不擔心而且他主動積極要健全文官體制要建立所謂的政務人員法只是當時或許有些立委國民黨的立委他們不支持但是現在來說的話我是覺得政府機關應該要朝所謂整建人事法制這個角度來做這樣一個思考"},{"start":7764.835,"end":7792.204,"text":"所以我認為這個法當然是絕對是要儘速通過那它的主要理由或者是說目前我們所碰到的一些可能需要注意的問題我來跟大家做一個介紹你看我們剛剛講到我們的法案目前是有兩個就是所謂行為基準行為好像就是一個限制其實我們制定這個法案它還有一個重要的目的是權利政務人員你有什麼樣的權利呢"},{"start":7793.308,"end":7821.478,"text":"縫紙對公務員來說它是個權利對政務人員當然也是但這個要不要法律化呢如果你沒有法律化的話你就會不知道它的錢怎麼來的我這邊就舉個例子你看網路上可以查到政務人員給予表還有主管職務加給表我們以檢任比照檢任第十四職等的我們以常務次長或者是直轄市政府的副市長"},{"start":7822.486,"end":7847.537,"text":"所謂政務人員職務比照檢任第十四職等如果我們看網路上查得到的話他的意思就是說他的薪資待遇比照常任文官的十四職等會嗎 真的是這樣子嗎主管加級改了107年的時候賴清德當院長的時候發個公函政務職的十四職等比照檢任十四職等"},{"start":7848.427,"end":7869.657,"text":"以及十三指等另外調薪你網路上查不到要有公文出來給你看你才知道他是說預算通過了就調薪是不是預算沒通過還可以減薪呢這個叫法律化不然的話你光講說照減刃第十四指等"},{"start":7870.871,"end":7886.834,"text":"人員的薪資待遇那個是唬人的根本不是啊還有另外的公文啊加薪了所以我特別強調這個要法律化但這也是權利啊那另外剛剛大家也提到的陳菊院長"},{"start":7888.972,"end":7906.848,"text":"請假超過一年多那全巡部說得很清楚我也聽得很明白他是說適用公務人員請假規則那我其他不多講如果適用的話你如果講說比照一下參考適用都好如果你說適用的話那我們來看"},{"start":7908.915,"end":7936.537,"text":"請假規則第18條規定各級機關首長請假應報請上級機關長官核准剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了請問監察院長上級機關是誰全國最高監察機關的首長他還有上級機關嗎誰准他假的 誰讓他延長病假的那我們更不要講所謂這種公務人員請假規則主要是給常任文官 常任事務官"},{"start":7937.557,"end":7945.61,"text":"因為你的植物是踴躍化的保障你政務官不是嘛 你還有任期的嘛怎麼可以讓你停兩年呢"},{"start":7946.618,"end":7975.878,"text":"而且那种说法我如果没记错的话要所谓两年内可以合计可以请一年好像还要回来起码回来一天吧回来一天再延长病假但你如果一再的用这样子来说它是适用的话这个是法律条文就完全就配合不了了完全就是讲的难听点也不得已了那是因为院长所以你就只好说固然过去很多福利"},{"start":7976.698,"end":8004.566,"text":"等等 你都是參考比照適用常任文官的但這是不對的職務性質不同如果你真的要有些福利你政務人員你也要有的話請你寫準用但也不能全部你要看哪些可以 哪些不可以常任文官跟事務官常任文官跟政務官是不同的回到剛剛講以前為什麼偷偷給他加薪是以前政務次長的薪水會比常務次長少"},{"start":8005.914,"end":8033.463,"text":"因為他沒有考積獎金那你不能偷偷加然後你還說是預算通過那我們今年預算你不要通過讓他減薪 可以嗎大家一定做不出來會被罵 對不對好 但這個要法律化這是權利它不僅僅只是行為的基準跟義務接下來我們如果要 我認為要制定這個法所以我認為政務人員的範圍很重要那我提出幾個大家去思考的"},{"start":8034.537,"end":8051.81,"text":"我具體的建議就是我們講的政務人員用一個最簡單的一種說法他就是政治任命的你至於說你是不是負責政策那是其中的條件之一重點是你是政治任命的"},{"start":8052.861,"end":8078.689,"text":"什麼叫政治任命的下面就要介紹了就一定不是考試及格的嘛你也不是有法律規範等等諸如此類當然有些你是負責政策有些不是但是你只要是政治任命的我們可能就把他納入啊那我特別強調組織法律所以法規行政命令不包含在內喔如果行政命令可以包含在內的話各院可以自行設置政務官全亂了"},{"start":8080.407,"end":8108.059,"text":"地方的話就地方制度法明定或者是它授權有幾個比例可以列為正務職的一級單位機關組長諸如此類還有一個狀況就是這個部分的話我個人不大熟住外的 住外的話但基本上我的了解我們目前住外的生活條件良好的住外的代表或大使沒有 應該沒有大使 就代表"},{"start":8109.158,"end":8133.754,"text":"那都是政治任命的 特任的吧那艱困地區的就可以常任文官去當大使也是邦交國因為我們的邦交國大概就是艱困地區那是給我們常任文官的他們都有本職事務官或者特任的政務官那這個部分要稍微的要再精確的了解他們的不同好 那我現在又提到一點了"},{"start":8134.98,"end":8164.025,"text":"我們現在充斥著黑官而且黑官裡面竟然有部長級的特任官你如果按照我如果按照我所講的要有法律的話台灣美國事務協調委員會他的主委是特任他不是組織法律耶那就是黑官還有所謂的黨產會所謂的聘派結果你主任委又列為特任聘是指"},{"start":8165.356,"end":8194.31,"text":"聘監派是指派監他不是特任特任應該是總統任命那這個部分都是一個很重要的一個有問題的地方另外中選會代理中選會的主任委員目前是代理的委員他不是官員身份他代理主任委員之後他是特任官嗎他受不受約束那這也是個問題啊因為委員是無幾職就一定不是官員嘛可是他為什麼可以代理主任委員呢主任委員是特任官他到底什麼身份這又是個問題啊另外"},{"start":8196.021,"end":8213.113,"text":"有沒有特派這個要請全區部或人事總處確認一下應該沒有特派因為我看到我們委員裡面的那個草案裡面有特派我們好像沒有特派官了這要特別稍微留意一下另外一個最重要的特聘是什麼抱歉我時間不夠講完這個特聘"},{"start":8216.196,"end":8243.469,"text":"有黃曙光擔任潛艦國造的欽差大臣之後特聘這個職務就露出檯面了但什麼是特聘 他是官員嗎他不是官員他為什麼可以變成欽差大臣負責國防部所應該管的所謂的潛艦國造那他如果不是政務人員的話潛艦國造案出問題了檢察委員可以彈劾他嗎那我們都沒有把特聘列進來到底什麼是特聘"},{"start":8245.575,"end":8260.526,"text":"這個它是部長級待遇像這個特聘的話該不該列入 怎麼規範包括他可不可以兼職這都是權力事項也請一併參考時間超過了我有相關的書面資料 敬請各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":8264.669,"end":8279.674,"text":"謝謝龜董事長精闢的見解接下來我們再請陳清秀教授發言那麼待會在陳教授發言完畢之後我們就先休息五分鐘讓大家可以上個洗手間先請教授"},{"start":8282.833,"end":8307.932,"text":"主席 還有各位委員 各位先進 大家早安 早上好很榮幸有這個機會來參與這一場政務連連權力義務法制化的公聽會我想今天我們聆聽了各位先進學者專家意見我自己覺得受益良多我們知道我們法案通常是由政府主管機關來提出法案"},{"start":8309.033,"end":8336.859,"text":"那政務人員法制呢這個可以說是關係到整個高級文官制度應該怎麼樣來合理的經過發展那麼主辦主管機關啊要嘛就是考試院要嘛就是我們的行政院人事行政局這個以前叫人事行政局現在叫行政院人事行政總處那麼主管機關呢對於法制的建設呢是責無旁貸的"},{"start":8337.899,"end":8366.974,"text":"今天我們沒有看到他們提出對應的法案這是代表他們違法待遇執行職務一個國家要進步 需要大家國家先往匹夫有責尤其主管機關不應該待戶職守從這個案子裡面我們深切期盼主管機關不可以相互推卸責任這個我個人現在在提倡天人合一思想就是要利人利己 天下為公"},{"start":8368.191,"end":8390.812,"text":"別人不做的 我們可以做的就應該拿起來做不應該互相推卸責任這個的話 整個國家社會怎麼進步所以我覺得我們不應該自私自利一定要利人利己國家的事務是共同的責任法治的現代化 合理化是共同的責任我們常任文官有"},{"start":8392.188,"end":8419.838,"text":"行政中立法 公務員的行政中立法那麼更高階的政務官更應該要行政中立因為他掌握了國家的資源更容易供契私用但是我們居然法規有欠缺這個代表我們法治建設不完備 有漏洞我們不可以見死不救法治有重大缺失我們居然視而不見"},{"start":8421.537,"end":8444.826,"text":"這個就不對啦我們的憲法採取相對多數就可以選全體擔任總統換句話說少數人代表所屬出來的人可以來代表全體國民執政這個就違反了民主國家多數決言理你要代表多數就應該要有多數黨"},{"start":8446.976,"end":8472.902,"text":"來組成政府來執政如果是總統那麼至少第一輪沒有過半數那麼第二輪選舉要讓他過半數之後採取的民主的正當性所以進步的國家採取總統制的一定要採取過半數才支持的人民人民所支持的候選人才可以來代表全體國民執政我們台灣的憲法制度有重大缺失"},{"start":8474.557,"end":8499,"text":"少數人可以代表多數人來執政換句話說沒有經過我同意也沒有授權你只能代表你少數人你怎麼可以代表多數所以我們現在的政府是處在一個專制的非民主的反民主的一個政府狀態我們的政務官如果我們採取內閣制就沒有這個問題我們政務官採取還是政黨政治的做法"},{"start":8499.841,"end":8515.339,"text":"少數政黨可以來代表全民執政這個就是一個重大的缺失那我們要怎麼樣挽回呢我們應該要求這個政務官要體察民意了解多數人民的生活需要"},{"start":8516.614,"end":8531.306,"text":"為民生意除害不可以只考慮到少數黨派的利益國家利益 全民利益一定要超越黨派的利益所以我們政府連連的倫理規範第一條就是要忠於憲法 遵守法律"},{"start":8532.647,"end":8558.722,"text":"這個是依法行政最基本的也就是貫徹民主政治 民意政治多數決原理的這個基本精神如果我們政務官沒有這樣的體認他就不適格當政務官因為他沒有忠於國家 沒有忠於憲法我們憲法是民主國原則怎麼可以違反民主原則變成專制獨裁呢這個代表這個政務官的人格有問題"},{"start":8560.1,"end":8574.494,"text":"因此我們在政務官的選任方面一定要要求他要通情達理通達民情 通達民意通達人民的生活需要通達天理 通達事理要講道理"},{"start":8575.717,"end":8602.965,"text":"一個不講道理的政府 它會危害我們人類社會的它會危害我們的全民的生活福祉的我們期盼我們的政務官都是品格兼優的 得財兼備的所以《易經》裡面提到一個觀點 以德配位如果德不配位的話 它違反了天理天道它違反了事情的道理那麼它所作所為就會胡作非為 違法亂紀"},{"start":8605.106,"end":8628.551,"text":"所以因此我在這邊提倡我們的政府人員的行為準則不要只落入到世俗化的到底要不要利益衝突迴避一個大公無私的人 他就不會貪污舞弊他一定是天下為公 一定是利人利己的所以我們所重的就是他的品德修養"},{"start":8629.671,"end":8658.338,"text":"所以日本的這個高階文官日本的明文規定國家的公務員倫理法制他就有這樣一個規範建過我個人認為我們應該要有政務官的倫理規範他的價值觀 人生觀 世界觀是不是真的是大公無私為我們全體國民在奮鬥為我們人類生活福祉在打拼"},{"start":8659.258,"end":8675.912,"text":"我覺得這個就是他要重視民意如果他不重視國會的多數人 多數覺得意見代表他是反民意的 他是獨裁的我們不應該讓台灣變成獨裁的國家我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家"},{"start":8677.185,"end":8699.493,"text":"所以他要以人民的意見為議規多數人的意見為議規以全民的福祉作為他施政的總目標這個地方我非常贊同剛剛這個孫教授提了一個觀點就是我們應該有一個強制的在職進修就像公司的治理董監事一定要每年強制在職進修"},{"start":8700.433,"end":8715.567,"text":"我們至少也應該要求我們政務官每年有個強制在職競秀課程對憲政法治的基本觀念要把它建構起來對一個公務倫理道德也應該要建立起來對政策的分析能力也應該把它建構起來"},{"start":8716.508,"end":8730.794,"text":"我們培養優秀的人才 才能夠為國家所用才能夠建設台灣成為人間的淨土所以我很提倡我們這個法治的建構的基本原則回歸到天人合一思想"},{"start":8731.926,"end":8759.669,"text":"人在做天在看回歸到上帝的造物法則的規律回歸到事情的道理本身來處理公務因為這個大家的事情這是我們世世代代子孫希望能夠前人種樹後人成娘祖上積德必應子孫我們不希望把台灣搞得污煙瘴氣啊所以呢我們期盼大家併著良心公正的處理事情"},{"start":8760.819,"end":8771.757,"text":"我們的主管機關不可以待戶直鎖我以前擔任人事局局長都會主動找事情做不會這樣互相推卸責任不應該一代不如一代"},{"start":8773.872,"end":8798.375,"text":"這個是我個人認為我們應該要注意到這些面向當然大家可以用AI來搜尋一下到底政務官怎樣去見過我們的做法似乎有一點朝向事務官化所以有所謂的懲戒的程序德國的部長法律規定聯邦部長法裡面他是部長是不走這個不循著這個所謂的公務員的懲戒程序的"},{"start":8799.568,"end":8825.929,"text":"因為就像儒家思想所提到的行不上大夫我想我們對於我們的政務官這是國家的棟樑應該要應有的禮遇跟尊重他應有的福祉福利也應該要給他照顧我覺得我們應該要大公無私的講道理的來建構我們的高級文官的制度大家敞開心胸"},{"start":8826.75,"end":8850.418,"text":"我們希望大家都能夠符合這樣一個天理 世理 倫理的法則來處理國家的公共事務這樣的話我相信我們台灣我們的中華民國一定能夠屹立不搖可以走向一個富強的康莊大道可以永續發展以上請多多指教 謝謝"},{"start":8853.069,"end":8860.574,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授的發言那麼我們現在就先休息五分鐘然後待會再繼續請其他的專家學者們發言"},{"start":9231.069,"end":9235.836,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那接下來我們就請彭錦鵬教授發言"},{"start":9256.277,"end":9271.478,"text":"主席各位先進非常高興非常榮幸有這個機會來參加這個公聽會首先聽了上半場的各位先進所提供的意見我學習很多"},{"start":9272.574,"end":9289.77,"text":"但是我個人在過去這40年裡面一直都在研究國際的以及國內的人事制度其實有蠻多話想講那我只有10分鐘的時間所以我大概都只能夠扼要地點到基本上"},{"start":9290.908,"end":9314.331,"text":"政務人員法從87年到101年間已經有五次會嫌行政院送立法院審議但是都因為藉其不接續審查所以並沒有完成立法作業全序部在108年也曾經送給考試院來審查但是也是無疾而終"},{"start":9315.717,"end":9340.738,"text":"那我們從剛剛黃國昌委員吳宗憲委員所提到的這些實際上的一個例子我們可以發覺到就正如我們剛剛清秀大師所講的這是考試院的這個帶墮立法帶墮也就是有這麼多的問題必須要處理但是呢你如果沒有法律你怎麼處理呢"},{"start":9342.418,"end":9369.15,"text":"那現在我們也可以看到說原來大家都沒有覺得有任何問題的考試院要負責中華民國的公務人員的法制結果居然還可以把它推諉到說那行政院自己管就可以了很明顯的這產生了一個就是說到底要不要政務人員來做一個法制化"},{"start":9370.506,"end":9384.128,"text":"我的答案是當然要而且很迫切如果我們先把這個原則給搞定的話那就可以比較有所期待說我們會有一部政務人員法"},{"start":9386.04,"end":9409.965,"text":"這個公務人員法其實也讓我想到了剛剛也有先進在提到說公務人員基準法 基本法其實我也是在台灣大概第一批來研究公務人員基準法的現在當然也還是躺在考試院當時是吳庚吳大法官負責做一個研究計畫我也是成員之一"},{"start":9411.528,"end":9434.435,"text":"到現在也是完全不見蹤影所以我想第一點我要提到的是就政務人員法的必要性來講的話政務人員是現代化國家文官體系的一部分但是政務人員的選用保障退職等等權利義務關係和一般常任文官是截然不同的"},{"start":9435.509,"end":9463.192,"text":"原因是因為任用並沒有任何考試的條件然後權利義務也是隨時之間會隨著政黨或者是政務領導而改變這樣子是沒有保障的所以基本上單獨立法是必要的這是第一點第二點有關政務人員的立法原議過程其實一直都定名為政務人員法草案"},{"start":9464.11,"end":9480.884,"text":"那已經算下來的話已經差不多三十年的一個時間了那我在第一點所講到的就是政務人員的人力資源運用權力義務關係都需要獨特的法律體系來規範"},{"start":9482.455,"end":9498.557,"text":"那麼在民主國家中常任文官和政務人員是否分別立法規範並不一定常任文官是否分為中央級或地方級的常任文官分別立法也不一定例如說在日本的話"},{"start":9499.318,"end":9523.104,"text":"他們就有國家公務員法然後也有地方公務員法所以目前我國關於公務員長任文官的部分的法律體系已經相當完備而對於政務人員則比較多都是依附在公務員法如果我們能夠單獨將政務人員的權利義務單獨立法這基本上會比較清晰 可辨識"},{"start":9524.878,"end":9542.814,"text":"而且具有法律效益最重要的是具有法律效益那以下的意見我基本上會比較聚焦在翁曉琳委員所提出來的政務人員法草案畢竟這個三個我稍稍比較一下的話比較完整一點比較內容比較多的話是在翁委員"},{"start":9543.775,"end":9563.249,"text":"那从上半场我们大概也可以看到,其实这个政务人员法它会牵涉到的是非常非常多的条文,权利义务关系,然后法律的定义,惩罚的条件都非常非常复杂,其实是蛮难的。"},{"start":9564.267,"end":9588.057,"text":"第三點我要提到的是政務人員法的主管機關應該是考試院從憲法條文裡面可以看到過去這30年都是考試院在負責的那麼除了少數一兩個人曾經表示不同意見然後現在好像是變成民進黨的政府意見要把政務人員管理的就完全放在行政院"},{"start":9589.479,"end":9595.672,"text":"但是我們也必須要了解說我國的憲法體系是比較不一樣的"},{"start":9596.687,"end":9620.726,"text":"一般國家公務員的管理基本上一個叫做部內制也就是說每個部會自己管自己的人事不像我們非常嚴謹的這樣一個法律規範另外也有部外制也就是說在各部會裡面其中有一個部會是在管所有的公務員的法律的這些要件這叫部外制"},{"start":9621.286,"end":9646.662,"text":"那我國剛好是採用的是全世界都沒有的叫做院外制我們有單獨的一個考試院那麼來處理人事的問題那麼在這樣一個憲法架構裡面很顯然的我們當然應該讓這個考試院來擔負這個起草公務人員政務人員法律的這個義務和責任那所以呢"},{"start":9648.438,"end":9666.646,"text":"從這個角度來看的話考試院現在目前是失職的狀態那反過來講如果因為行政院管轄中央政府百分之九十幾大概百分之九十七以上的公務員所以行政院必須負責政務人員法制和實際應用"},{"start":9669.022,"end":9693.041,"text":"我們針對總統府行政院以外的市院之政務人員那他的政務人員法制要由哪一個機關來負責呢所以邏輯上很簡單就是要考試院來負責第四點地方政府的政務人員的人事制度是屬於政務人員法的規範對象我國的人事法制基本上是採用人事一條邊的"},{"start":9694.122,"end":9718.854,"text":"在这样的一种情况之下我们如果针对现在大约现在大约是在500个政务人员的这种情况之下那么我们并不再需要中央和地方两种人事制度来规范政务人员第五点关于政务人员的品德忠诚察核需要在提名或任命前实施这件事情我觉得是必要的"},{"start":9720.135,"end":9734.394,"text":"同時也應該要在法條上面追加對於任命後才發現有問題的或者任命前已經有消極這個條件的都應該要比照辦理第六點 關於"},{"start":9735.916,"end":9750.308,"text":"第八條第二項有關於政務人員辦理特殊查核的事項應該不需要由行政院另訂辦法行之因為根據人事行政總署對本草案的說明現行的"},{"start":9752.37,"end":9779.271,"text":"行政院所屬政府人員依照公務人員特殊查核規定辦理從立法經濟的角度來看的話那麼就由我們目前的一個體制來查查就可以了基本上我剛剛聽到的消息就是我們特殊查核每三年要查核一次但是我們根本沒有人去查核都是由調查局去查核的那總共查核的只有兩個人"},{"start":9780.697,"end":9803.727,"text":"所以我在想說我們永遠都是在省小錢然後做壞大事比方說我們的政務體系高層體系裡面都還會發現政務人員是產生了重大的這種安全漏失所以我覺得乾脆還是由行政院來處理但是應該加強人力的調配第七個 政務人員違反"},{"start":9806.548,"end":9827.394,"text":"本草案第十條到十七條行為規範的有鑒於徵務人員細數公務員懲戒法和服務法的適用對象那麼這一些呢這個應該就不需要再加以處於划環第八點本草案既為徵務人員權利義務的專法本人同意人事行政總署要參照"},{"start":9829.255,"end":9855.331,"text":"各类人员人事专法合并立法的一个体力将待遇管理条例来统一规范把它纳入或者是我们另立一个政务人员的奉集退职规定那我为什么特别会讲这个呢原因很简单全世界最好的公务人员体系就是新加坡新加坡的一个部长初级部长他的薪水大概就是年薪2500万台币"},{"start":9856.502,"end":9877.734,"text":"他們為什麼會很好很簡單這是當年李光耀總理立國的時候就提出來這樣一個目標我覺得我們也可以效法當然蠻困難最後一句話我想要提到的就是剛剛前上半場大家都在講公務人員行政中立法我必須要這樣子很簡單的跟各位講"},{"start":9878.993,"end":9905.06,"text":"全世界除了中華民國以外沒有人用行政中立這兩個字這四個字因為你把它翻成英文的話叫做Administrative Neutrality沒有人用如果有的話是誰呢一定是後面點TW我們很偉大我們是學來的所以就是只有政治中立法因為我們的法的規範對象如果是依法行政那個叫做行政中立那就不必再講了"},{"start":9906.5,"end":9929.617,"text":"我們所針對的全部都是政務官和常任文官或者是政務官跟政務官或者是行政官跟常任文官彼此之間的有關於政治行為是否中立而處理我們已經錯太久了我最後講一句話就是當初在通過這個名詞的時候"},{"start":9932.256,"end":9957.332,"text":"是用舉手表決的是由學者們舉手表決但是大部分的參加的學者並沒有行政也沒有立法也沒有國外的經驗所以當初用表決的方式就通過了叫做行政中立這個名詞是錯的很簡單你把它查一下子這個political neutrality和admission neutrality在網路上所有你能夠出現的"},{"start":9958.112,"end":9971.91,"text":"我們錯太久了所以容我稍微超過幾秒鐘然後講這件事情 謝謝是 謝謝彭老師好 那接下來我們再請江明修教授發言"},{"start":9980.9,"end":9998.246,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家早安剛剛聽了彭教授的發言以後我想這裡首先要針對還是行政中立這個名詞行政中立這個名詞我從文獻中看到考試院的熊忠勇先生他有特別提到行政中立"},{"start":9998.826,"end":10015.054,"text":"之所以在我們中華民國會特別產生的原因主要是因為說在威權時代的時候擔心行政部中立會造成政黨政治無法正常發展可經過三十幾年來的這個實踐以後呢現在我們的常任文官是非常守法的反而是"},{"start":10015.894,"end":10022.083,"text":"民主政治的這些代表的這些政客們反而是違法亂紀然後裙帶關係破壞那個國家體制造成人民非常大的不信任所以因此現在反過來的話我們對行政中立這樣的一個"},{"start":10032.017,"end":10059.236,"text":"一個立法的原則本身我想我們要繼續的再給它加強再給它延伸到所有的政務人員都應該把它包括進去也就是說今天你是依照政治而得到這個地位可是不代表說你可以因政治可以紛張而是說你還是要守國家的法據要尊重國家的體制所以說我在這裡我要特別提醒"},{"start":10061.823,"end":10090.68,"text":"我們現在很多的法律本身其實訂了以後也沒有執行的包括待會兒那個房景堂教授會提到的那個旋轉門條款我剛剛也特別拜讀了一下旋轉門條款是一個非常好的立法可是執行不當執行沒有真正的落實這個也跟我們現在整個國家的整個我們有關於公務法制方面的這個訂令本身的整個邏輯性跟原理性沒有離心有關我想我現在先簡單的講幾個基本的觀念"},{"start":10091.681,"end":10113.813,"text":"政治分账跟行政中立之间的对应关系的话就是为了要对付政治的分账我们才是要行政中立而行政中立法是所有政府只要拿政府的钱的拿全民钱的任何一个人都应该受到他的约制所以说行政中立法有规范的人员都应该受到耶稣以外的行政中立法没有规范的人员就要"},{"start":10116.715,"end":10141.249,"text":"用那個政務人員法相關的法案來給他約束所以說我現在講的已經不是正面表列跟負面表列的問題是說國家已經到這種地步的時候我們的官員的腐敗已經到這個地步的時候我這裡講的官員是一個政務官這個時候我們必須要用最嚴格最嚴厲的方式去給他贏得全民的再度的信任所以說我們可以看到說"},{"start":10142.37,"end":10157.123,"text":"美國的這個份上政治本身造成美國很大的問題那麼當然我們這裡也不適合一些檢討說總統制造成國家重大問題的原因因為全世界總統制沒有一個是成功的我們先不談這個部分好了就以行政重點來看的話"},{"start":10158.024,"end":10178.1,"text":"固然是這個名詞跟政治中立之間是有所不同可是行政中立這個名詞的學術上的定義也好現在法律上的定義也好它確實是比政治中立更加完備即使是中華民國的發明的話我覺得說也是一個正面的發明另外我想我們要提到的是"},{"start":10179.628,"end":10192.624,"text":"當我們來討論這個問題的時候我們必須從權力制衡的角度來看今天我們中華民國的五院之間事實上五院之間的配合度非常高五院之間的互相監督性權力的分離性反而非常低"},{"start":10193.72,"end":10222.471,"text":"事實上權力本身是野獸 是巨獸這本來就應該加以約束的因為當政府的權力越大的時候我們人民的人權的保障是越危險的所以因此這個權力制衡的原理本身我們應該在這個政務人員的相關法制裡面我們應該把它放進去尤其有談到的是如何讓權力不再集中在行政院這個部分我覺得立法院應該要硬起來"},{"start":10223.536,"end":10238.945,"text":"行政院真正來尊重國會所以說這裡還涉及一個政治倫理的問題就是說政治的運作的時候所有的人也不應該以政治立場而是應該以行使權力的正當性"},{"start":10239.741,"end":10257.596,"text":"也就是說不可以供權力納為個人政黨或特定利益的工具所以我們這裡要談到一個結論是什麼呢就是說政治可以有立場但是權力必須要有界限而且應該是以憲法以國家高於這個政黨勢力"},{"start":10260.086,"end":10285.028,"text":"這裡我想先開始釐清一個就是說我們這裡所謂的政務人員是什麼呢相對於常務人員來看的話我覺得說最簡單的講法是什麼呢政務人員應該是不是一般的公務人員也不是民意代表這兩個如果確定好以後他只是依照他有政治責任跟政治權利之間相互之間在運作然後他是"},{"start":10286.642,"end":10313.721,"text":"還是在民主制度中的一個權力分立中的一個從業人員因此我具體的建議會這樣認為非以國家考試非以國家考試任命之所有人員都應該叫政務人員包括說現在有很多的巧立名目的特聘人員 特派人員 聘監人員你不管用什麼名詞你的錢還是來自於國家你的"},{"start":10314.822,"end":10341.751,"text":"權力還是來自於國家所以說所有非以國家考試通過之人員不管你旋轉到任何個位置上面你還是政務人員我想我們必須要有這個概括性的這個規定一定要先出來以後我們才有辦法談以後不然的話太多的瑣碎的規定這個又不行 那個又不行最後全部都是從那夾縫中伸出很多的污垢出來"},{"start":10342.819,"end":10349.578,"text":"所以因此我再用一個政府人員角色理性的這個部分對不起這個部分謝謝你幫我提出來"},{"start":10351.627,"end":10372.801,"text":"所以你看看 政務人員的辦法 只要是政治任命有政治決策的權利 而且應該負政治責任的人不管你有沒有任期的保障不管你是不是有經過立法院的通過全部都算是政治人員 政務人員那繼上述的這個討論以後我就下面的這個三點 具體問題再提出我的淺見 第一點"},{"start":10375.683,"end":10386.658,"text":"公務人員專法是否有必要非常有必要我剛剛很遺憾的看到考試院相關的一些部會首長還有考試院的一些那些文字我是覺得說完全是"},{"start":10388.171,"end":10415.101,"text":"公務人員跟公務員他都沒辦法區分清楚這是考試院的正式文書公務人員是包括全部依刑法依國庫的使用而所有的這些人員都叫公務人員你不管你叫做國營事業的董事長總經理都還算是公務人員公務員當然是依照國家考試任命的那一批特殊的有專業的人叫公務員其他都是公務人員公職人員"},{"start":10416.141,"end":10432.689,"text":"所以因此我認為以目前來說雖然說也有人說行政中立法裡面相關的法案裡面第18條裡面有規定說好像說可以準用可是就是沒有用沒有用我們才要用特別民定這個專法"},{"start":10434.809,"end":10450.554,"text":"把這些分散的規範集中起來然後讓政務人員的正當的行為不能模糊化還有讓行政資源的政治化的餘力給他制止讓整個憲政的制衡權力的分立能夠明確化"},{"start":10451.694,"end":10472.448,"text":"絕對的權力 絕對的腐化今天我們不知道為什麼還有人會說要讓政府好做事政府已經是做事做得過當了我們需要把權力拿回到國會來好好監督他們所以政務人員的權力義務法制法裡面的我們應該藉政治責任跟政治倫理的話我認為應該要地理專法而且中央地方"},{"start":10473.288,"end":10502.101,"text":"所有的還包括立法院同意任命的所有的相關人員都應該納入規範裡面包括說國營事業還包括很多的依照計劃任用的那些人員全部都應該把他納入管制裡面這是第一點第二點有關於主管機關應該是考試院還是哪個單位我覺得有些單位的答案很奇怪什麼表示尊重"},{"start":10503.431,"end":10525.066,"text":"尊重大院 尊重 實在不知道答非所問那基本上你根本就沒有意見事實上就是考試院 考試院責無旁貸而且刑責也應該是考試院監察院能做當然是最好的監察院現在有糾纏權 只要糾纏權他睡著了監察院是一個非常差勁的院根本沒有負起國家的責任最後一點"},{"start":10526.437,"end":10536.687,"text":"有關於忠誠義務跟查核的問題禁止洗媒等等我完全贊同我認為說忠誠義務的查核還有禁止洗媒等等全部都應該要有很明確的界限"},{"start":10537.961,"end":10565.706,"text":"然後依照這個不可這個行政中立不可跨越的縫線我們都交以查核所以說 剛剛房教授有談到的賢人門條款的部分賢人門條款根本就是沒有發揮作用所以現在我們今天很多的腐敗都來自於這些官員轉來轉去哪一個政黨輪替都是一樣貪贓枉法很多是從這邊轉來轉去的那沒有好好沒有任何一個膽美負起責任出來"},{"start":10567.393,"end":10588.474,"text":"所以說我最後的一個結論是說有關於這個 抱歉 第三點忠誠義務查核禁止行賠這一部分裡面的話我想說這是一個時代背景的一個產物所以說我們應該是說因為民間也很多講法他說現在很多的政黨都想把國家變成政黨我覺得請他們要自我約束 謝謝"},{"start":10592.069,"end":10620.321,"text":"謝謝江教授的發言接下來我們就請台大政治系的黃景堂教授發言主席好 各位先進好今天很高興參加這個座談尤其這個公聽會尤其看到很多好朋友那麼大家共襄盛舉我有一個書面意見我現在把重點講一下第一個就是我認為有立法的必要但是要聰明"},{"start":10621.181,"end":10637.962,"text":"要BE SMART然後另外不一定在這步伐完成所有對政務官的亂象或政務官官事官規的建立的手段而是可能要再多元一點也是要更宏觀從治理的角度來出發"},{"start":10638.863,"end":10656.881,"text":"那我首先講為什麼有立法必要第一個就是說因為這個素材重要第二個就是說我們發生問題可以嗎我們在我們的憲政體制下因為我們這個現在立法院大概立法在野黨很難很沒有意願去發動倒閣因為倒閣的作用不能發生所要想要達到的政治性的效果"},{"start":10657.381,"end":10685.959,"text":"那所以這個執政團隊就不會下嘛對不對 不會下那他就不免這個有恃無恐那加上選舉非常的陰破 陰竊 急迫那輸贏太大了所以招數呢 無所不用其極我這邊借用兩個知名的學者講法一個是德國的RuhmannNicholas Ruhmann他講政治 政治人物腦袋想到什麼東西呢政治這個體系的基本邏輯什麼就是權力"},{"start":10686.929,"end":10706.369,"text":"就是我能夠繼續執政就對了我要鬥倒對方那永遠執政這就是政治人物的邏輯所以那接下來我們台大政治學系的這個已故的這個知名教授世界級的教授朱英翰教授他的名言就是說政治人物是神魔雙性各位要記住這句話"},{"start":10707.53,"end":10724.175,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠發揮他的神性他親民的時候可是他如果鬥起來的時候一切以這個聖選為考量那這個就是不顧昌生就是魔鬼這樣子那所以我認為是有立法的必要那當然有些是因為條文我認為有些老舊比如說選者們條款"},{"start":10725.515,"end":10741.289,"text":"那第二個就是說我有什麼這個直接的建議我認為說第一個就是說我們對身分的規定要完善化我們這邊汪委員的版本當然有規定但是我認為還可以再加上幾個補充第一個就是我們要一個定性條款就是它基本上是"},{"start":10742.67,"end":10764.257,"text":"政務官跟國家的關係處於公法上的職務關係所以他不是司法的不能用司法那一套的價值或是機制或是訴訟的途徑來做第二個就是他應該有一個功能定位就是說我們政務官在幹什麼這個時候就可以用到韋伯的政務官的三大特性第一個就是要熱情"},{"start":10766.431,"end":10780.524,"text":"就是要勇於去發掘問題去處理問題熱情第二個就是說要有眼光第三個就是要勇於推出他的政策並且去想辦法把它完成把它落實這個叫做責任倫理"},{"start":10781.505,"end":10805.917,"text":"所以如果從責任論以下 陳菊這個院長現在這個方式是不及格的剛剛我們貴鴻成這個董事長也講到就是說你的請假怎麼可以請這麼久呢所以我說要一個功能定性的條款這功能定性條款它可以銜接到它的諸多重要的制度比如說它的這個解職的室友甚至應該有一個強迫解職的"},{"start":10807.03,"end":10823.17,"text":"除了說他的長官令他取職等等這些接下來就是說他的任命的生肖日是哪一天他解職的要件解職日解職等等這些宣誓如果沒有依照相關宣誓規定完成的話會有什麼法律效果"},{"start":10824.131,"end":10839.669,"text":"這些都要把它加以再進去這個地方不困難因為我們已經有官制官規我們中華民國政府官任命解職這麼多年來都已經有官制規它是用內規我們把它賦予法源等等我覺得這個是有益的"},{"start":10840.169,"end":10856.254,"text":"第二就是說這是核心就是我們三位委員都講到說我們對政務官的為惡就是他魔鬼的部分就是他要濫刑施政你用他的權責去擴大他的人力 他的地盤 他的資源"},{"start":10860.655,"end":10881.637,"text":"要鬥倒對方等等這些這些就在這個草案大概是第12條以下等等這些的規定我們應該怎麼來對峙這個不是說出於政黨之間的公平而已而是對整個國家的法治 民主 人民的福祉等等這些那我會認為說應該多管齊下這個地方就是要BE SMART"},{"start":10882.578,"end":10901.656,"text":"治理那我認為說可以有的手段大概比如說呢第一個就是說呢我們是不是我其他都要推薦要這個就是說要鄭重的進行我們對監察委員跟這個大法官甚至考試委員也一樣的任命是不是應該用立法院的三分之二委員的多數決"},{"start":10902.908,"end":10919.689,"text":"這個就從源頭上把一些鬥雞把一些disqualified的這些人 把他幹掉就是說你要經過立法委員三分之二的同意你才可以取得這個職位那三分之二委員代表什麼代表就是要跨黨能夠同意"},{"start":10921.491,"end":10939.183,"text":"這是核心的第二個就是說是不是也仿照美國的這個獨立管制的委員會這樣他的副作就是說這個機關的副作機關副作應該是有這個在野的就跟比如說機關的首長是執政黨那這個副作應該是在野黨這樣維持一個奧妙的平衡"},{"start":10946.269,"end":10955.54,"text":"因為有時候就委員來講以我以前當考試委員的經驗考試委員是沒有辦法管到考試院的內部的事務的你只是很單純開會你講講話是客親"},{"start":10959.028,"end":10975.761,"text":"對不對所以就是說我們現在講說是不是副作副作就是應該是有政黨推薦出任的那這樣有一個內部的一個制衡這也是一個重要的手段接下來比如說工會的這個或這個工內協會這部分怎麼在賦權"},{"start":10977.402,"end":11006.563,"text":"再復權那麼再來比如說這個資訊公開是不是呢那以及我們還沒完成法治法的立法院的這個資料的這個法治法還不夠實踐上還不夠好資料的調閱以及這個國會調查權我覺得這些都是你要來對峙這個魔鬼般的這個假設已經魔鬼化了的這個政務官的話的一個重要的手段"},{"start":11007.023,"end":11026.102,"text":"接下來我認為說應該要強化評鑑當然評鑑就是要由民間來各位可能會說民間還不是一樣就是各有各的政黨的所支持的民間團體沒關係 我覺得"},{"start":11028.585,"end":11053.786,"text":"階段性總是會先有這個樣子那各個這個民主因為我想大概三五份大概只有這樣就是說三五個知名團體來做那這個時候再重重的去經由各界的閱讀跟評論慢慢慢慢就會累積出這些數字那這些的這個績效那這些的這個讓人民的眼睛是雪亮的來看"},{"start":11054.887,"end":11065.136,"text":"那麼接下來就是說我認為說我們其實對弊案像比如說超思這個弊案或是我們最近有關軍購 國防採購案那麼怎麼會有一些不見經傳沒有專業的"},{"start":11072.122,"end":11086.422,"text":"的這個素養然後過往的經驗甚至資本那這樣就可以得標那像這種的我們慢慢我們這個社會已經走到就會有民間去向檢方提起這個告發"},{"start":11087.723,"end":11110.196,"text":"甚至政黨的人物或黨團也有可能我覺得說我們應該再強化這個部分我們是不是應該要求說檢方對這種重大的這個就是說這個貪圖的或是涉及貪污或說涉及嚴重我們再加上一些要件他應該要適時的"},{"start":11113.198,"end":11135.811,"text":"於不影響偵查公開的要件下那麼來做適當的說明向社會說明他不能說收了案子一年半載沒有訊息石沉大海不能這個樣子甚至應該要明定說我們立法院的委員會可以發動"},{"start":11137.172,"end":11165.994,"text":"這方面的看是以秘密會議的方式或怎麼樣來進行有關的調查等等這些那麼最後我講一點就是說我認為說我們現行在總統府內在行政院內在各部會內的辦公室內談黨務是違反行政中立這個是不行的德國就是這個樣子在官社也不行"},{"start":11167.267,"end":11188.307,"text":"官社不是在幹這件事情那這個應該明定就是說這個就是比較具體化針對我國實際現行的一個應該予以這個落實的這個行政中立政治中立的這個規定接下來就是說對大選的時候不管是九合一的這種大選或者這個中央級的大選那麼這個中央的"},{"start":11190.31,"end":11208.71,"text":"這個長官他去他常常假借個考察的你去考察個這個鳥不生蛋的這個不見金磚的這個小單位然後呢就這樣動用了所有的國家的這個交通時數的這個資源實際在助選嘛那這個也應該予以這個限制"},{"start":11210.071,"end":11228.368,"text":"那麼最後我是希望說我們的這個旋轉門條款放寬因為實際上沒有什麼作用我這邊舉了五個例子是那個AI檢索加上我自己印象中的這個林犬的這個案子都是沒有事就是說都是說並不直接跟職務相關"},{"start":11229.989,"end":11256.73,"text":"那所以就是說你有時候你訂了那麼嚴苛的規定是刑法處罰刑法來事後但實際上是而且是五年的你離職前五年內的所有的職務那你離職後的三年內那我覺得這太嚴重而且動不動就是經過告發就是有檢察官來偵辦那我覺得這太嚴厲了應該參考我書面意見當中的這個德國法來做思考這樣子以上"},{"start":11260.321,"end":11265.174,"text":"好 謝謝黃教授的發言那接下來我們就請動物大學的林三清林老師發言"},{"start":11276.444,"end":11303.57,"text":"主席 各位學者專家各位機關代表還有各位先進 大家好很榮幸受邀來這裡跟大家來交流學習很抱歉 我沒有提供書面資料並不是我不重視這個場合事實上是因為我上週眼睛手術所以做事情比較不方便其實我本來應該是應該要請假的但是因為我非常重視全序部推薦我來擔任這個"},{"start":11305.19,"end":11330.887,"text":"專家的一個發言的機會所以我就還是來參加了我想首先我要談的第一點就是說有關於我們本法的立法目的到底是什麼我覺得透過這個法或許我們可以讓我們的政務人員他的整個行為規範能夠受到人民更多的信賴我覺得這個是一個可以努力的方向我想我們到底有沒有需要來制定這個法"},{"start":11333.869,"end":11351.044,"text":"其實我必須要強調是說我們現在政務人員的相關規範其實是在各個法律裡面其實也都散見了都有規範其實我們倒是應該思考說那到底我們還缺什麼那有關缺什麼這個事情我們應該可以來思考說那政務人員他的相較於一般的公務人員"},{"start":11352.225,"end":11374.294,"text":"它有什麼樣比較不一樣的地方所以我想首先第一個我想到就是說像我們這個如果是屬於其中應該要獨立行使職權超然行使職權這樣的政務人員我覺得他不宜不得參加政黨活動那有關這個部分的規範目前似乎好像還沒有非常明確那如果說我們能夠透過"},{"start":11376.295,"end":11394.009,"text":"這樣一個法規把它做一個明確的規範杜絕將來可能引起社會各界疑義的地方我覺得這是一個可以努力的所以我想基於還有一些類似這樣的點的一個存在我覺得這個法的制定似乎有極必要好 那再來"},{"start":11395.37,"end":11410.367,"text":"我想就是說那我們這個立法的這個方式我是建議採取就是說我們不必大動干戈我們不必要就是說我們好像說把所有有關政務人員的事項通通收羅到這個法律來我們不必如此"},{"start":11410.948,"end":11438.364,"text":"我們依然可以維持現在只要相關法律有已經含括到政務人員了我們就是讓他繼續用的那我們只需要針對我們需要強調的需要針對政務人員特別予以規範的部分把它收羅進來所以我想我們政務人員的專法可以成為一種叫特別法他只需要比較少量的千億的立法方式我們不需要把其他法律已經規定了把它收羅到這邊來也就是說我們"},{"start":11439.304,"end":11467.483,"text":"不用走分流制度好像說我們政務人員一套制度然後一般工人一套制度我們不需要走這樣好那再來我想就是說我們本法的主管機關我其實是在想說這個雖然權序部就是推薦我的機關他這個不認為考試院是應該適格但是很抱歉我這邊我的意見可能跟權序部不太一樣我是認為考試院是適合的這個主管機關為什麼"},{"start":11468.684,"end":11489.547,"text":"因為我們其實考試院被我們的憲法所賦予作為我們公務人員體制的一個法制的一個建構的一個機關所以他是負責我們公務人員法制雖然說我們全局部他有提到說我們少數的公務人員特種公務人員譬如說像警察人員他的法規就是由內政部主管但是這個畢竟是特例但整體而言"},{"start":11490.188,"end":11517.758,"text":"我們的公務員體制是由這個考試院來建構我想那考試院他其實我相信他有雙重的超然他來做這個法規的這個建制他也能夠比起比較比起行政院更能夠這個等於說讓社會各界信賴第一個超然是說他考試委員他本身本來就是被賦予一個超然性的職權地位第二個是說我們主要的政務委員來自於這個行政院的部分那如果說我們今天"},{"start":11519.319,"end":11541.778,"text":"行政院自己作為主管機關來規範他轄下的所有政務官我覺得他在社會各界來講我們認為說可能會認為你的這個意見將來我們遇到法規爭議要去解釋的時候主管機關的解釋可能認為說這個可能不夠超然哪以這個令社會大眾來這個等於說服氣的那我想再來就是說"},{"start":11544.059,"end":11562.095,"text":"我們到底這個法案的這個名稱是不是要認為說把它訂定成叫做譬如說叫做這個行為準則法或者叫做這個比較更廣泛的不局限在這個等於說這個行為而是基於行為以外的其他部分我認為我是採取後者的我認為說我們這個法案"},{"start":11565.438,"end":11590.932,"text":"不僅僅針對這個行為的規範來加以琢磨它還有其他的部分所以我想這個是我對法案名稱的部分那再來我想就是說其實我們必須要知道就是說我們證物人員他也是我們懲戒法的適用對象所以如果他有任何違法失職其實我們本來就有懲戒制度那因此我們到底需不需要在本法當中"},{"start":11591.952,"end":11616.648,"text":"再去納入到所謂的譬如說像裁罰的制度我認為應該要審慎因為我們不如就讓他繼續走原來的懲戒制度這樣的一個制度其實已經行之有年而且我想就是說也能夠讓這個比較避免到又納入裁罰制度好像似乎在這個法律裡面添加了一個就是說好像一個爭議的源頭"},{"start":11618.189,"end":11644.62,"text":"因為大家知道這個政務官他本身就是具有政治性的色彩那如果一旦他有裁罰制度之後是不是就引起這個不同黨派之間對政務官在究責的時候那有沒有要裁罰那我認為這個會造成將來在制度運用上就是說可能造成一個所謂引火線的一個源頭那我盡量還是我們既然已經有懲戒制度我認為還是盡可能就回歸到懲戒制度那再來好像有提到說"},{"start":11647.101,"end":11670.598,"text":"這個免職的制度啦我覺得當然政務官的去留其實當然一般來講政治責任是第一個那我們這個草案裡面好像有提到說在什麼情況下他應該去職這個部分我沒有特別想要去做說明那至於說有沒有因為什麼樣的原因譬如說因為這個違法的這個情勢你有特別有重大的這個違法事由你必須要去職那這個部分我認為說應該"},{"start":11672.259,"end":11678.198,"text":"不排除可以訂但是我希望能夠訂得更加的審慎我舉個例子我們過去曾經有過一個政務官"},{"start":11679.721,"end":11700.95,"text":"他甚至他是獨立機關的政務官他這個等於說他因為任用了他的親戚擔任這個司機就說違反立沖法所以他就被免職了那這個事情我認為讓我想起來就一直有點不安就是說這樣一個高層次的一個政治性任命的獨立機關因為這樣一個很"},{"start":11705.292,"end":11724.832,"text":"細微的違法適由就被免職了這個部分會不會造成衝擊到他的所謂獨立性的地位因為他是有任期保障的狀況我想這個部分我特別以這個例子來強調就是說我們如果要納入免職度我們一定要很審慎那個免職的適由必須要是"},{"start":11725.413,"end":11741.075,"text":"非常的明確無爭議那不會又留下像剛剛那個例子一樣一種因為輕微瑣碎的這個違法而埋下一個很可能就是說去突破一個這個所謂任期保障的一個缺口好那再來"},{"start":11743.217,"end":11771.676,"text":"看一下中程查核的部分我認為這個當然是有必要因為直施高階政務推動的一個政務人員我認為就是說他一定要謹慎因為我覺得我們台灣這個地位或者整個國情特殊我認為這個在中程查核當中來講是有其必要而且不僅是在任命前甚至任期中應該也要有一個定期的這個查核制度"},{"start":11772.156,"end":11788.494,"text":"那最後總結來講我還是要強調一下就是說政務人員剛剛我講過他是本身他有這個所謂他的這個政治性的這個等於說這個色彩那所以因此如果說我們在規範密度上如果我們過於"},{"start":11790.816,"end":11804.584,"text":"強這個等於說高密度的這個去規範例如剛剛講說譬如說這個所謂動輒就是裁罰等等這些其實會可能會埋下我們在這個等於說政治運作當中攻防的一些引火線我認為我們這個法律"},{"start":11807.265,"end":11823.671,"text":"那我剛講過我們是採取特別法的方式只針對我們政務人員有特別的特色有特別的特性有需要補強之處加以琢磨我們不需要做一個廣泛的這個立法那我們也整體來講我們希望這個法律能夠是比較遷移的以上 好 謝謝謝謝李教授的發言那接下來我們再請洪偉聖洪律師發言 謝謝"},{"start":11840.137,"end":11861.322,"text":"主席在座的各位這個機關代表專家學者各位先進大家早安那首先還是要表達感謝謝謝大院的邀請有這樣的榮幸來參與這個公聽會那也要說一聲抱歉因為剛才前面有一個會議所以沒有辦法在一開始全程參與所以可能發言的內容或許會有一些這個重複的地方也請大家見諒"},{"start":11862.222,"end":11876.776,"text":"那剛才在場我想針對今天的這個提綱我會分四個方向來做說明第一個是針對政務人員或者是剛才其實大家在討論的過程當中有的時候會談到政務官有的時候會談到政務人員但是"},{"start":11877.686,"end":11893.225,"text":"其實這個本質上就說明了在想要容易一如而言之的這個一個困難性那這邊其實我要對這個包含在這個主席在內的幾位委員願意在這個時候嘗試提出這個法案來"},{"start":11894.306,"end":11913.981,"text":"也要表達一點敬佩因為其實確實我們關於政務人員的法治化是花了非常長的時間一直想要嘗試但是一直都沒有辦法成功那我覺得這些不能夠成功一個很重要的原因在於根本的出發點的認識可能在我剛才聽起來整個公聽會的過程當中"},{"start":11916.363,"end":11938.076,"text":"非常多的專家學者都反映了說我們認為說政務人員要跟政治保持適當的距離或者是說要避免這個可能的參與政治但是這個出發點從首長制或者是民主政治責任政治的角度可能會有一點本質上面的需要再進一步的區隔簡單講剛才聽我在整個公聽會當過程當中我聽起來"},{"start":11942.079,"end":11957.419,"text":"似乎大家對於民主沒有那麼信賴認為說如果說政務人員有這樣子的情況我們的民眾是沒有辦法透過選舉跟這個政治的討喜來排斥這樣子的政黨或者是這樣子的執政黨"},{"start":11958.22,"end":11983.658,"text":"那這個是第一個我覺得我個人稍微比較保留的就是我個人還是對於民主或者是政治過程還是有基本的信心或信賴認為說我們必須要相信人民能夠把這樣子的情況看在眼裡而且他可以透過每一次的選舉尤其台灣的選舉其實不是很常就是這個非常的平凡那我認為說還是要相信人民可以透過一定的政治過程當中來"},{"start":11984.879,"end":12004.822,"text":"來解決這樣子的問題那作為法律人雖然這個我自己是法律人但是我覺得我對於把認為法律的處理手段會好於民主手段或者是政治手段這一點我本身是比較保留的那這邊其實我也要額外提一點就是說其實剛才我們提到政務人員"},{"start":12005.883,"end":12026.786,"text":"這個可能跟等一下我們在定義上也會有關係就是我們必須要清確的認識到說透過民主選舉的首長制是台灣的目前政治制度的核心那在這樣子的情況之下如果說我們認為說要區分那其實民主政治的根本就是說我要透過施政來爭取民眾的認同"},{"start":12027.867,"end":12045.415,"text":"然後獲得下一次選舉的勝利這件事情是民主政治的核心但是我們又想要把施政跟選舉做適度的區分簡單講就是說我們又如果說我們的理念上是希望說施政的政務官你不要參與政治決定跟選舉"},{"start":12046.696,"end":12065.447,"text":"然後競選的人你在競選的過程當中你要跟這個政府團隊要做區隔這樣子的理想可能會導致責任政治跟民主政治上會產生有點脫鉤簡單講就是說我作為施政者我應該要為我的施政負責透過這個方式爭取下一次的選民認同"},{"start":12066.887,"end":12085.715,"text":"繼續獲得執政的權利這樣子的期待跟認識可能就會落空因為我們認為說選舉的人歸選舉的人施政的人歸施政的人這樣的期待可能就會讓這個民主政治跟責任政治斷斂那這個是第一個根本的出發點所以我認為說我的觀察可能會略有不同的部分"},{"start":12086.155,"end":12106.376,"text":"那從這個角度其實就會進到我們提綱當中提到的各點就是說第一點關於這個立專法的必要性的部分我目前觀察到其實各個版本裡面針對可能需要處理的人員其實有不同的規範當然翁委員提到的是跟這個政務人員退職條例是最接近的因為他的範圍是最廣"},{"start":12107.697,"end":12133.613,"text":"但是這個情況其實就是會回到我們到底立法目的裡面到底是希望處理的是哪一個部分比如說目前的這個各個條案其實都看得到有一部分的人員定義為是隨著政治進退要負政治責任簡單講其實他就必須要透過他的施政來爭取下一次的選舉獲得多數選民的信賴繼續執政的這樣子的人員這是第一類的人員"},{"start":12134.594,"end":12155.865,"text":"但是我們目前的這個草案其實都不是只處理第一類的人員它同時包含了另外的兩種人一種是我們透過任命的程序或者是評估剛才其實幾位專家學者也提到譬如說用考試來區分或者是用任命程序來區分那這一類的人員我的觀察其實是我們是希望他"},{"start":12157.445,"end":12174.321,"text":"發揮他的中立性 發揮他的獨立性這一類的人員其實跟第一項的人員就是他其實是必須要負政治責任透過施政來解決來獲取下一次多數選民的認同以獲得繼續執政的他在本質上其實是有非常本質上面的不同"},{"start":12175.302,"end":12197.39,"text":"但是我們現在透過一個政務人員的大的帽子來把它全部要放在一起討論其實本質上我認為就有一些衝突因為在第一項的人員裡面其實我們應該要容許他更多的政治參與或者是更多的政治考量因為他其實就是在民主過程當中必須要實時回應下一次選舉但是第二項的人員也就是獨立"},{"start":12198.43,"end":12214.013,"text":"委員會 中選會等等的他其實是要跟這邊脫鉤的但是我們現在的處理方式是把他用一個政務人員的帽子把他認為是同等的人員同樣看待那我覺得這個其實在定義上其實就會產生一點點的歧義"},{"start":12214.694,"end":12235.745,"text":"那另外一個就是關於中央跟地方而言其實剛才我提到透過民主程序來產生而形成首長制來任命各個政務官這件事情其實不是只有中央政府有在地方政府有統計起來來看其實我們目前在地方政府的這個所謂的政務官的人數遠比中央政府來得高那如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":12236.966,"end":12264.153,"text":"假使我們的考量是要約束他們基於政治考量產生的濫用行政資源的情況那這個考量其實不會只存在於中央政府如果是從這個考量出發的話我們就不會認為說在中央政府跟地方政府必須要做差別善待甚至如果在這個時候排除地方政府的話我們認為說可能會產生平等原則的這個疑慮為什麼基於同樣的考量明明在地方的政務官"},{"start":12264.773,"end":12292.048,"text":"它的情況更多更嚴重的情況之下卻要在這個法律裡面排除地方政府的適用這個其實確實也會產生疑慮那所以從這個角度出發的話其實我個人的淺見會認為說或許還是要回到最原始的出發點就是到底我們希望處理的是那些必須要關注於下一次選舉或者透過施政來爭取下一次的選舉的多數選民認同的人這是我們想要處理的重點"},{"start":12293.048,"end":12311.619,"text":"還是我們想要處理的是他透過了任命程序之後就應該要跟政治過程盡量脫鉤儘管最後要責任政治要負責到底我們想要處理哪些人再來考慮說我們的法律後面要怎麼定那從這邊其實也會連結到跟主管機關有關就是當然我"},{"start":12312.58,"end":12331.196,"text":"我認同就是說過去其實有非常多的這個草案或許都是由考試機關來做出發點來做主管機關但是在目前的草案當中有幾個部分可能要特別注意就是如果從機關的最適功能理論來講其實中間如果涉及到包含安全查核包含品德查核等等的"},{"start":12332.197,"end":12358.144,"text":"這些是不是是完全適合由憲法上主要要主責有考試出身的這些公務人員出發的考試院來管理還是說其實目前手上已經有這些工具政策手段的這些行政院以下的行政部門來處理這個或許還有進一步的考量那另外一個就是說其實如果說我們思考的過程是一直希望讓那些應該獨立"},{"start":12360.124,"end":12384.584,"text":"執行職務的人能夠脫離政治上的干預的話那如果是從這個角度出發的話我個人就會更進一步的對於有考試員來處理會更進一步的保留因為這個法律其實我剛才提到它其實某種程度很想要把應該要負政治責任的部分進一步的讓它法律化那簡單講就是說主管機關如果在這個時候它有可能會"},{"start":12385.825,"end":12410.076,"text":"更進一步的因為這個法治化之後更進一步的設置到政治那如果是從這個角度來出發的話我們認為考試院其實在我們的憲政安排上其實比較是傾向於這個中立性的機關那但是在這個部分他要來處理政務官的政治政治過程或者政治責任因為他已經法治化了我會擔心進一步的把考試院"},{"start":12410.676,"end":12437.966,"text":"捲入了這個政治的過程這個其實是或許進攻這個大院參考那針對具體的這個規定的部分我稍微提兩點就好第一點就是說那個英語免職的規定其實有一些部分好像比我們的常任文官可能來得更當然這個免職的規定其實在如果我們要處理的是獨立機關的話或許有必要因為過去其實有一些情況就是說他因為任期保障反而導致要負責任政治的這個最終的行政首長沒有辦法免職"},{"start":12438.746,"end":12460.641,"text":"或許這個規定是有必要的那但是可能要更謹慎我在最後一分鐘就好不好意思第二個就是說關於我們目前有些草案裡面提到的這個品德查核的部分那這個我會覺得有點擔心就是說到底品德查核最後是由誰來操作會不會因為我們要避免政治上面的考量結果最後因為做品德查核"},{"start":12461.181,"end":12486.39,"text":"他和的關係變成有點像是過去的人惡富弊啊這類的情況而且他是因為他會因此喪失他擔任政務人員的資格那這個到底是由前任來做查核還是現任來做查核其實也有可能變成政治操作的手段那最後作為決議我是覺得還是有幾個請答就是第一個從我剛才角度我剛才提到的政務人員目前看起來是把兩個可能不同考量的部分放在同一個角度裡"},{"start":12487.35,"end":12506.96,"text":"或許還是要像剛才幾位專家提到了或許可以從極簡的角度來出發試著來處理其中部分而不是想要從一部法律來全部處理那另外就是地方目前其實既然有這樣的情況有些或許可以先從政治上的準則出發進一步的來做法律化由下而上那以上進攻大員參考謝謝好謝謝宏大律師的發言"},{"start":12513.502,"end":12533.565,"text":"那麼今天我們所有的專家學者以及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那其餘列席的機關代表有沒有需要補充說明的考試院情緒部請問是哪一個機關不好意思監察院好那就那就請來前面發言好了好"},{"start":12538.52,"end":12556.235,"text":"監察院的監察業務處的處長黃處長來請發言是監察院參事鄭旭好是不好意思監察院參事是好請發言主席好各位委員好各位系的專家好補充說明一點監察院院長請假軍系依法辦理以上報告謝謝"},{"start":12563.581,"end":12578.1,"text":"因為太快了我沒有聽清楚可以對然後麥克風拿接近你好不好不好意思再說一遍是這樣監察院院長的請假均系依法辦理以上報告謝謝是依什麼法要講清楚"},{"start":12581.368,"end":12594.98,"text":"現行有效的法規來辦現行有效的法規這就是我一直在每次質詢監察院的時候都沒有講清楚那麼這個也是我對監察院很不滿的地方這有什麼好不敢公開"},{"start":12596.761,"end":12622.107,"text":"大方的講你們到底是依據什麼法規然後現在監察院院長他的薪水是有發還是沒有發包含年終獎金等等的如果說如果已經有交國庫的話這都應該要做報告這應該資訊公開透明可是監察院到現在沒有任何作為都沒有資訊揭露這是我對監察院感到非常很不滿的地方接下來司法院許廷長要報告請"},{"start":12634.914,"end":12656.526,"text":"司法院這邊除了書面報告之外 簡短就是口頭補充說明大法官跟三中省的法院院長都是行使司法權的司法人員有受到憲法81條非受刑事或懲戒處分或是禁制產的宣告不得免職的保障"},{"start":12657.046,"end":12672.804,"text":"那也是屬於法官法第二條第一項所稱的法官那與政務人員是隨是政治任命必須隨政黨進退政策變更而去留的行政官員是不同的"},{"start":12673.505,"end":12696.139,"text":"目前也有專法也就是法官法針對大法官跟三中審法院院長的相關事項有做規定相關的倫理規範跟自律事項也有細緻的規範所以司法院這邊是認為說大法官跟三中審法院院長是應該是沒有以另外一般性的法律規範的必要"},{"start":12696.579,"end":12720.858,"text":"那應該將大法官跟三中審法院的院長就明文排除在這個相關的政務人員法的草案那其他有關於草案的條文的規定的內容這個部分就如書面報告不另外補充那其餘部分就尊重貴院著處以上說明好 謝謝許廳長的報告還有沒有其他好 哪位機關好 請這是哪個機關"},{"start":12725.816,"end":12743.073,"text":"不好意思 請問是哪一個機關全序部全序部的王司長請發言主席 各位議會先進全序部這個地方還是要表達一下就那個主管機關的部分"},{"start":12744.537,"end":12772.511,"text":"就那個主管機關的部分因為憲法現在就是說已經名列考試院的執掌並沒有包括政務人員這一塊那如果把那個政務人員的相關法案就是說規定為那個是考試院的話會跟憲法的規定有點抵觸的一個疑慮這個也是前系部一直在主張說這個不應該是考試院那當然就是說前系部裡面的有一些法規還是會去"},{"start":12775.173,"end":12799.831,"text":"讓政務人員可以適用不過這些都是比較一般的行政規範至於相關戶那些相關政治責任這一塊並不在考試院的職長裡面這裡面有一些委員認為說考試院好像應該要有相關的調查前事實上我們的整個政務體制分工就會不一樣司法的歸司法去管"},{"start":12801.032,"end":12828.271,"text":"那個公務員包括政務人員有違反相關法規他是由懲戒法案來去處理那考試院這邊並沒有調查前各機關人員有違法的話他是先由各機關去調查這個人有沒有違法的一個情況甚至監察案他可以受理人名的一個擠花然後他去透過調查的程序透過彈劾的一個程序來彈劾這些政務官員"},{"start":12828.971,"end":12846.598,"text":"那這些都是在國家整個體系裡面有不同的職權的一個分工那這些分工在憲法裡面其實已經講得很清楚各有所思那今天這個政務人員因為他是屬於憲法明文規定之外屬於考試院的執掌之外考試院的"},{"start":12847.578,"end":12868.934,"text":"執掌在憲法上只列了三款第一款是公務人的考試包括那個專技的一個考試這個是考試院的執掌那另外兩款都是有關公務人員的那個相關情緒事項以及公務人的法治事項這裡面並沒有包括政務人員的相關法治所以這個地方其實就是說剛剛委員也有"},{"start":12869.994,"end":12891.665,"text":"寫者也有提到嘛 今天考試院是一個獨立機關如果要再把考試院拉進來去處理這一塊其實這一塊本來立法政策它就可以去行整那如果加油考試院來去處理的話其實是把考試院納入這個整個政治的一個閒樓裡面那今天以及這樣相關的規定其實"},{"start":12892.885,"end":12920.275,"text":"政務人這一塊有一些在公務人法制裡面政務人是可以去借重他已經明文規定在那個地方那有需要再把考試院剪入這樣一個政治性裡面這個是我們全系部的一個意見以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝全學部法規司司長的說明那麼我想聽了剛剛王市長的說明我建議你們回去應該提案修法這個政務人員退府條例政務人員退府條例的主管機關是哪個機關"},{"start":12925.592,"end":12949.517,"text":"是考試院吧好沒有關係退府基金是不是也是在你們然後那個政務委員員退府條例主管機關現在就是考試院如果你們認為說你們作為主管機關不適當的話那麼請你們提案修法請你們提案修法那另外呢全學部的意見是不是能夠代表考試院的意見"},{"start":12950.857,"end":12971.056,"text":"我想這個整個的這個徵務人員法的他這個有關於職權他主管機關這應該是一個考試院的重大政策但是坦白說我到現在也沒有看到考試院有正式的將這個案子納為作為一個正式的一個討論提案所以對於到底"},{"start":12971.917,"end":12997.549,"text":"政務人員法的主管機關應該是要由考試院來擔任或是未來由行政院人事總處來做主管政案考試院自己內部必須要有一個正式提案要進行討論而不是由權敘部來發言權敘部你只是權敘部但是真正的主管機關是考試院所以我在這邊可能還是要很嚴正的告訴權敘部不要這個"},{"start":12999.67,"end":13016.949,"text":"你們的意見我當然這個我們予以尊重但是我想全序部並不是真正的對於這個議題上面是有政策決定權的還是要回歸到考試院好的那麼今天的"},{"start":13018.693,"end":13036.335,"text":"公聽會的發言我想就到此一段落那麼也很感謝所有的與會的專家學者還有我們機關代表都可以從不同的面向提供諸多的寶貴意見當然今天所有的發言內容以及書面意見以及莊瑞雄委員 省發會委員等等所提的書面"},{"start":13037.356,"end":13060.155,"text":"資料都會列入記錄刊登公報那至於有少部分的專家學者如果說還想要事後再提出書面資料的話就麻煩請五天之內然後提出你們的書面資料那麼我們也會一併列入公報一併會刊登列入記錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":13061.943,"end":13080.252,"text":"而且我們也還會就是一併的製作成為公聽會的報告再送交給本院的全體委員以及本日的出席列席人員做參考好那麼今天的公聽會我們就到此結束在此非常謝謝各位專家學者們的這個參與那麼我們就現在散會好謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}