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謝謝主席各黨團的代表大家早安這個立法院組織法32條跟等等的修正案這長期以來被污名化變成所謂的除罪化法案但是我還是要藉這樣協商的機會再次重申如果大家有仔細看法條的內容基本上這是一個助理待遇的助理加薪法案那很多人在什麼補助"},{"start":114.349,"end":130.898,"text":"定性等等上面做文字的爭執我只要再次強調我們過去修正的民代知己條例針對地方民意代表的助理就已經全部定性成為補助費而且這是行政院的版本甚至行政院的版本在立法說明裡面還把公費兩個字拿掉就是為了強化它是補助的這樣一個性質"},{"start":132.159,"end":151.439,"text":"那如果按照民進黨對這個法案的指控說這樣子的修法是除罪那難道行政院是在幫詐領助理費的議員除罪嗎我認為這個邏輯上是說不通的當初不管是修民代知己條例或者是今天討論立院組織法的修正都是要強化基層政治工作者的待遇這一點我一定要再三說明那麼另外"},{"start":152.1,"end":173.109,"text":"這一段時間在協商冷凍期裡面其實我們是跟工會跟立法院因為是執行機關其實是保持非常非常密切的對話因此我們也有提出相關的一些修正動議像我們立法院有提醒啊如果有涉及到這個立法院的補助費的調整因為是待遇的關係要避免自肥所以應該要有一個日出條款所以我們在修正動議裡面都有把日出條款加進去也就是由第12屆的立法"},{"start":174.769,"end":202.34,"text":"願再來開始做施行所以即便這個會稍微增加一些助理的待遇跟補助大家也會有點擔心社會觀感會不會不好的問題但如果是下一屆才開始上路我們是為未來在做打算而不是為我們現在的利益在做打算所以我想也沒有自肥的問題這部法案我希望大家在協商的時候可以盡量對焦在我們要給助理哪一些的待遇跟福利多少額度的這樣子的一個提升在這些地方有達成一個好的共識之後如果可以簽字不用表決那當然是100分的結果"},{"start":203.74,"end":209.561,"text":"就看看今天有沒有這樣的契機可以完成這樣子的歷史工作 以上我只能很清楚的表示"},{"start":226.892,"end":234.983,"text":"反對理由何其多 不言可議反正就是反對剛才用一首發言我們都認為沒有辦法接受"},{"start":236.397,"end":257.675,"text":"柯總召很明確表達反對專委員您稍微等一下我們請台灣民眾黨團幹部講完這就輪到您好嗎好 請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見我們贊成這次的修正案因為它沒有除罪化的問題而且沒有自費因為它明定了從下一屆就是不是我們的第11屆下一屆的公費助理才有這樣的一個福利我要強調的"},{"start":259.64,"end":283.306,"text":"這一次裡面很多人都在講殺除罪話可是看這次修正條文裡面根本就沒有這個問題第二個它有的是增加我們公會助理的福利而且在整個過程裡面我的了解是跟立法院也有討論跟公會助理的公會也有討論可是呢台灣民眾黨有要求提了一個修正案就贊成這個原則上贊成這個國民黨提這個修正案可是有一點就是第八項"},{"start":285.285,"end":311.331,"text":"公費助理的結婚補助還有生意補助還有商帳補助跟子女的教育補助費這個金額太大了這可能要上億喔這個金額太大了所以我們主張我們把這一項把它刪掉其他我們都支持OK好這個也是我們跟立法院立法院討論立法院認為有意見的對不對了解好我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員請發言"},{"start":312.847,"end":341.929,"text":"好 謝謝院長剛剛中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨講這個理由都不通為什麼說不通呢這個案子我要在這地方特別提醒今天是1月30號院長 這個幾乎我們是最後一天這個案子如果通過的話我相信社會會嘩然第一 這個案子是淨富二讀的案子這個案子沒有那麼崇高"},{"start":343.354,"end":355.84,"text":"這是提出來的修正案這個代表本來是要到監獄裡面把那個犯人給搶劫出來搶劫不成以後呢就換上聖誕老公公的服裝然後就說我沒有我是來發糖果的發給大家糖果的我沒有要截球"},{"start":364.895,"end":377.962,"text":"在這個案子裡面各位把它看法律不是這樣解釋修正案第二項裡面是說立法院應該每年以公務預算編列消費立法委員的補助費所以在法律的定性裡面如果是立法委員的補助費的話好啦立法委員的"},{"start":388.414,"end":415.315,"text":"臺灣民眾黨你們就標準 舉著道德的大旗然後這個案子你們現在在講說沒有 我們要增加助理費增加助理的福利這個三黨沒有人反對啊你要增加助理的福利提高他們的待遇來增強國會問政的能量社會你也不用擔心他會反對啦這個民進黨來跟你支持我們來跟你支持可是這個案子不是這樣來的"},{"start":416.92,"end":418.961,"text":"這個案子是為了除罪化而來的然後到最後才提修正案這個案子本來是近乎二讀那如果是各個政黨對整個國會助理整個法案是這麼的崇高的話為什麼要偷偷摸摸就在委員會裡面討論就好啦就在委員會裡面討論就好啦是劉許廷委員還有一點良知提出修正案"},{"start":445.66,"end":449.942,"text":"不然這個案子是苟且耶是要搶監獄裡面的囚犯出來耶然後你們穿幫了以後 沒有我現在送給助理我們是來給糖果的 來給禮物的這個不要騙社會各政黨都有人來拜託就明講嘛 幹嘛騙社會大眾我最痛恨的就是說明明要幹邪惡的事情然後又在那邊包裝 包裝得很漂亮"},{"start":474.488,"end":477.431,"text":"想要除罪話也沒關係 讓社會大眾知道就是說因為我藍白 我人數就比你還多嘛你民進黨算什麼想除罪話就除罪話 會不會過 會過但這樣好嗎 最後一天這樣子好嗎這個案子沒有正當性啦"},{"start":492.554,"end":505.783,"text":"真的沒有正當性了最後一天我們通過這個案子這是責損大家啦你們各位都是偉大的政治家你們在政壇還要繼續混下去我們不一定要混下去我們可以回歸社會我沒有幹立法會我也不會死掉但這樣對嗎我在戳破你們這個假面具"},{"start":518.604,"end":534.273,"text":"這個案子從來就不是為了要增加助理的福利 都不是如果要增加助理的福利三黨協商很快啊大家來劃壓 這個案子就撤掉啊明年下個會期大家都還在啊就讓他過就好啦有差這兩個月 差這一個月嗎幹嘛這樣偷偷摸摸不敢討論讓社會大眾來討論 我告訴各位啊"},{"start":549.758,"end":568.769,"text":"最高法院的見解就講得很清楚為什麼那麼多議員他會被抓去關最高法院就認為說助理補助費用這個助理的補助費用至死非屬議員實質薪資範圍你這第二項把它定下去的話變成立法委員的實質薪資你這顛覆了最高法院的看法"},{"start":574.155,"end":597.091,"text":"案子寫得很漂亮啊但是問題是你這個案子這樣下去以後變成立法委員的實質薪資我既然是我立法委員的實質薪資我哪有貪污我自己錢的問題寫得很巧妙但不要騙社會大眾這個案子我反對謝謝莊瑞雄委員發言莊瑞雄委員口中所敘述有良知的牛許廷委員你要不要再講兩句"},{"start":601.67,"end":626.665,"text":"一下講有良知一下又說會社會化人就很奇怪嘛這個如果真的要談補助費的流變的話其實大家應該都知道在場很多都是我的前輩大家都很了解最早最早立法院在給所謂的助力補助的時候他最早是大水庫理論也就是直接撥交到立法委員的戶頭但撥交到立法委員的戶頭之後衍生很多問題第一有些人沒有辦法全部用完那就變相變成了立法委員自己的金額"},{"start":627.185,"end":648.963,"text":"第二 當出現這樣的事情的時候你怎麼課稅呢就是因為因應這樣的事情所以才產生了後來這個不管是為了防弊或者是為了避免稅務的複雜才出現立法院代收代付所以我覺得這樣子的一個這樣子的一個制度大家應該予以維持嘛那現在我們雖然調升了很多助理的補助待遇但是整個架構它都是維持的也就是這些助理的待遇一樣由立法院直接撥款到"},{"start":649.824,"end":673.97,"text":"助理的戶頭嘛所以就不會有大家的懷疑或者是指控說這個會跑到立法院口袋變成立法委員的實質薪資等等的這樣子的一些問題但我覺得不管從自古以來到現在流變本質上立法委員跟助理之間是僱傭關係但是我們要僱傭這些助理錢從哪裡來當然是立法院編補助金額啊我覺得這是正常的法理啦所以我就只是把它寫清楚而已那我也要再次強調明代議員是這樣寫的"},{"start":676.471,"end":689.54,"text":"那難道議員就處罪了嗎 其實沒有嘛你快關注很多判例剛剛莊銳銓委員也講了最高法院有最高法院的見解嘛所以說這次修真的會推翻所有的見解嗎我覺得也不盡然是如此啦所以我覺得大家應該用寬一點的心態來看待這件事 以上錯 院長我要馬上回應這個講法是不對的因為你第二項把它明定成變成立法委員的補助費用這句話的話就會推翻最高法院的一個見解啦"},{"start":704.091,"end":727.584,"text":"因為我要徵詢一下台灣民眾黨台要不要發言因為沈伯陽委員已經舉手了所以我一定要徵詢一下台灣民眾黨台要不要補充發言我簡單補充啦水泳哥在稱讚那個有良知的那個許廷今天用的主要就是有良知的許廷的案子阿台灣民眾黨只是把他規定的更嚴格而已阿那個水泳哥這裡面沒有一個字有除罪話你那個眼睛有看到除罪話這個字嗎"},{"start":729.045,"end":739.315,"text":"我跟妳講這個變成立法委員的補助費用就變成你立法委員的法院就沒辦法判罪嘛都是強化公費助理的這個福利沒有關係 那個沈博焱委員發言完畢之後我要做宣告了好嗎沈博焱委員請掌握時間 簡短21謝謝"},{"start":752.374,"end":777.571,"text":"這個昨天其實有協商過但是那時候我想說不要我以為今天不會硬撸所以沒有把話講那麼重除罪化跟不除罪化取決於犯罪的構成要件犯罪的構成要件在貪污治罪管理條例的第五條的第二項第一項的第二款叫做利用職務上之機會以詐數使人將本人或第三人職務交付"},{"start":778.371,"end":801.9,"text":"所以重點是今天我們的那一個條文定在貪汙自罪管理條例所以如果你今天修了一個組織法你這個法律會影響到什麼定義所謂的本人之物這個就變成關鍵所以以往為什麼詐領助理費它會是一個犯罪行為是因為那個本人被認為是國家的財產所以你用詐數騙了國家的財產所以這個叫詐領助理費嘛"},{"start":806.022,"end":835.422,"text":"所以如果今天我們把這一個事情把專業家計以外原本的助理費就是稅入的那個五倍還沒有寫上線把它定成是立法委員自己的錢的話那這個時候就不會符合第五條第一項第二款的這個構成要件這也是高鴻安案那時候立法院給出來的意見讓他也變成用一樣的解釋方式現在就是要把那時候給的意見直接明文化但我這個是反對的"},{"start":836.142,"end":860.943,"text":"然後第二個呢 我昨天已經強調過了有幾件事情要做其實很簡單剛剛如果藍白都認為說這根本就沒有除罪話OK 我覺得我也 我也認為沒有要除罪話那如果真的是這個樣子的話 那很簡單啊那就把義領助理費 還有虛報人頭還有上限 還有時報時銷 寫在上面就好啦"},{"start":861.644,"end":885.998,"text":"就直接寫說如果我今天是虛報然後我今天是要求繳回如果我是義領仍舊回歸貪污自罪管理條例處理那這樣就沒問題啦因為大家都知道說啊對對對那這樣的話並沒有除罪話因為剛剛講的那一些事情都還是犯罪行為這樣不就好了嗎我昨天已經講過啦所以照理說應該昨天講過了今天應該把他弄上去嘛但是沒有"},{"start":887.455,"end":905.602,"text":"好 謝謝剛剛各個黨團都代表發言還有列席的委員都發表提案委員也發表了看法我想我們沒有辦法達成共識我想現在我跟大家各位黨團幹部討論一下我們現在做一下宣告本來各黨團並沒有辦法達成共識各黨團我們就繼續溝通"},{"start":907.435,"end":920.985,"text":"那第二點最重要今天本日的院會議程草案還沒有確認所以請各黨團幹部現在要到議場後方主席休息室我們進行相關議程的溝通跟確定好嗎那我們現在協商散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:30:09.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:30:13.080000+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部，10 點半時間已到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:30:14.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:30:27.967000+08:00","text":"我們現在協商牛煦庭委員等 35 位擬具「立法院組織法\n第三十二條、第三十三條及第三十五條條文修正草案」，本案經 114 年 12 月 26 號本院第 11 屆\n第 4 會期第 15 次院會決定逕付二讀，並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商。","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:30:37.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:30:45.916000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團翁曉玲委員於\n本日上午召集協商，經充分討論但是沒有辦法達成共識。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:30:45.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:30:55.619000+08:00","text":"現在請各黨團代表表示意見，首先，\n我們請提案的國民黨黨團以及在場的牛煦庭委員先做說明好嗎？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:30:56.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:30:56.400000+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:01.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:31:01.986000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:02.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:31:04.809000+08:00","text":"各黨團代表，大家早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:06.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:31:40.898000+08:00","text":"立法院組織法第三十二條等等的修正案，長期以\n來被污名化，變成所謂的除罪化法案，但是我還是要藉協商的機會再次重申，如果大家有仔細\n看法條的內容，基本上，這是一個助理待遇的助理加薪法案，很多人在什麼補助、定性等等上\n面做文字爭執，我只是要再次強調，我們過去修正的民代支給條例，針對地方民意代表的助理\n就已經全部定性成為補助費，而且這是行政院的版本，甚至行政院的版本在立法說明裡面還把\n「公費」兩個字拿掉，就是為了強化它是補助性質。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:42.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:31:49.587000+08:00","text":"如果按照民進黨對這個法案的指控說這樣\n的修法是除罪，難道行政院是在幫詐領助理費的議員除罪嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:49.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:31:51.089000+08:00","text":"我認為邏輯上是說不通的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:31:51.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:00.619000+08:00","text":"當初\n不管是修民代支給條例，或者是今天討論立法院組織法的修正，都是要強化基層政治工作者的\n待遇，這一點我一定要再三說明。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:01.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:12.004000+08:00","text":"另外，這一段時間，在協商冷凍期裡面，我們跟工會、立法院其實是保持非常、非常密切的\n對話，因為立法院是執行機關，因此，我們也有提出相關的修正動議。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:12.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:40.275000+08:00","text":"像我們立法院有提醒，\n如果有涉及到立法院補助費的調整，因為是待遇的關係，要避免自肥，應該要有一個日出條款\n，所以我們在修正動議裡面都有把日出條款加進去，也就是由第 12 屆的立法院再來開始施行，\n即便這個會稍微增加一些助理的待遇跟補助，大家也會有點擔心社會觀感會不會不好的問題，\n但如果是下一屆才開始上路，我們是為未來在做打算，而不是為我們現在的利益在做打算，所\n以我想也沒有自肥的問題。","quality":0.994},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:40.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:46.377000+08:00","text":"我希望大家在協商這部法案的時候，可以儘量對焦在我們要給助理\n哪一些待遇跟福利？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:46.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:48.458000+08:00","text":"多少額度的提升？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:48.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:57.161000+08:00","text":"在這些地方有達成一個好的共識之後，如果可以簽字，\n不用表決，當然是一百分的結果，就看看今天有沒有這樣的契機可以完成這樣的歷史工作，以\n上。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:57.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:58.161000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭提案委員的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:58.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:32:59.161000+08:00","text":"我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言，台灣民眾黨黨團請準備……對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:59.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:00.161000+08:00","text":"更正一下，我們先請柯\n總召講完之後再請莊委員，對不起，請柯總召。協 2","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2026-01-30T10:32:58.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:24.963000+08:00","text":"我只能很清楚地表示反對理由何其多，不言可喻，我們就是反對，對剛才牛煦庭所發\n言的，我們都認為沒有辦法接受。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:33:26.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:28.078000+08:00","text":"柯總召很明確表達反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:33:28.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:32.482000+08:00","text":"莊委員，您稍微等一下，我們請台灣民眾黨黨團幹部講完之後就輪\n到您，好嗎？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:33:32.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:34.584000+08:00","text":"好，台灣民眾黨黨團請表達意見。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:33:34.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:33:47.134000+08:00","text":"我們贊成這次的修正案，因為它沒有除罪化的問題，而且沒有自肥，因為它明定從下\n一屆開始，就是不是我們第 11 屆，從下一屆的公費助理才有這樣的福利。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:33:47.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:34:25.007000+08:00","text":"我要強調在這一次裡\n面，很多人都在講除罪化，可是看這次的修正條文裡面，根本就沒有這個問題；第二個，它有\n的是增加公費助理的福利，而且在整個過程裡面，我的瞭解是跟立法院也有討論、跟公費助理\n的工會也有討論，可是台灣民眾黨有要求提了一個修正案，原則上贊成原來國民黨提的修正案\n，可是有一點就是第八款公費助理的結婚補助、生育補助、喪葬補助跟子女教育補助費，這個\n金額太大了，這可能要上億喔！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:34:26.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:34:38.210000+08:00","text":"這個金額太大了，所以我們主張把這一款刪掉，其他我們都支\n持，這個也是我們跟立法院討論，立法院認為有意見的，對不對？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:34:38.210000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:34:39.210000+08:00","text":"第八款刪掉，瞭解。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:34:39.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:34:41.311000+08:00","text":"好，我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:34:43.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:34:52.134000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，剛剛中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨講這個理由都不通啊，為什麼說不通呢？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:34:53.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:35:25.639000+08:00","text":"這\n個案子，我要在這個地方特別提醒，今天是 1 月 30 號，院長，我們今天是最後一天開會，這個\n案子如果通過的話，我相信社會會一片譁然，第一，這個案子是逕付二讀的案子，這個案子沒\n有那麼崇高，這是提出來的修正案，這代表本來是要到監獄裡面把犯人給搶劫出來，搶劫不成\n以後就換上聖誕老公公的服裝，然後說：我沒有，我是來發糖果的，我是來發給大家糖果的，\n我沒有要劫囚。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:35:34.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:08.102000+08:00","text":"在這個案子裡面，各位看一下，法律不是這樣解釋的，修正案第二項是說，立\n法院應該每年以公務預算編列下列立法委員的補助費，所以在法律的定性裡面，如果是立法委\n員的補助費的話，好，是立法委員的，台灣民眾黨，你們舉著道德的大旗，對於這個案子，你\n們現在講說：沒有，我們要增加助理費，增加助理的福利。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:09.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:10.524000+08:00","text":"三黨沒有人反對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:11.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:27.080000+08:00","text":"你要增加助理\n的福利，提高他們的待遇來增強國會問政的能量，你也不用擔心社會反對，民進黨支持你，我\n們支持你，可是這個案子不是這樣來的耶，這個案子是為了除罪化而來的耶！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:27.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:28.021000+08:00","text":"然後到最後才提\n修正案，這個案子本來是逕付二讀，如果是各個政黨要提升國會助理的權益、如果整個法案這\n麼崇高的話，為什麼要偷偷摸摸？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:28.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:57.841000+08:00","text":"就在委員會裡面討論就好了啊，就在委員會裡面討論就好了\n，是牛煦庭委員還有一點良知提出修正案，不然這個案子是勾結、是要搶監獄裡面的囚犯出來\n，然後你們穿幫了以後，就說：沒有，我現在送給助理，我們是來給糖果的、來給禮物的。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:57.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:36:58.841000+08:00","text":"不\n要騙社會，各政黨都有人來拜託，就明講嘛，幹嘛騙社會大眾？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:36:58.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.690000+08:00","text":"我最痛恨的就是明明要幹邪惡\n的事情，然後又在那邊包裝得很漂亮，想要除罪化也沒關係，讓社會大眾知道，就說因為我藍\n白人數就比你還多嘛，你民進黨算什麼？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.890000+08:00","text":"想除罪化就除罪化，會不會過？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.991000+08:00","text":"會過，但這樣好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:26.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:27.171000+08:00","text":"最後一天這樣子好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:27.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:43.415000+08:00","text":"這個案子沒有正當性啦，真的沒有正當性啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:44.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:48.938000+08:00","text":"最後一天我們通過這個案\n子，這是折損大家。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:49.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:37:55.282000+08:00","text":"你們各位都是偉大的政治家，你們在政壇還要繼續混下去，我們不一定要\n混下去，我們可以回歸社會，沒有幹立法委員，我也不會死掉，但這樣對嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:37:55.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:38:12.887000+08:00","text":"我要戳破你們的\n假面具，這個案子從來就不是為了要增加助理的福利，都不是！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:38:13.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.413000+08:00","text":"如果要增加助理的福利，三黨\n協 3\n協商很快啊，大家來畫押，這個案子就撤掉啊，下個會期大家都還在啊，讓它過就好啦，有差\n這兩個月、差這一個月嗎？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.793000+08:00","text":"幹嘛這樣偷偷摸摸不敢討論？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.893000+08:00","text":"讓社會大眾來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:38:23.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:38:58.749000+08:00","text":"我告訴各位，最高法院的見解就講得很清楚，為什麼那麼多議員會被抓去關，最高法院就認\n為助理補助費用自始非屬議員實質薪資範圍，你們這個第二項訂下去的話，變成立法委員的實\n質薪資耶，這顛覆了最高法院的看法啊！","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:04.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:15.023000+08:00","text":"案子寫得很漂亮，但問題是這個案子這樣下去以後變\n成立法委員的實質薪資，既然是我立法委員的實質薪資，我哪有貪污我自己錢的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:15.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:19.146000+08:00","text":"寫得很\n巧妙，但不要騙社會大眾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:19.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:21.187000+08:00","text":"這個案子，我反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:21.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:23.409000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:23.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:27.071000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員口中所敘述有良知的牛煦庭委員，你要不要再講兩句？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:27.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:31.670000+08:00","text":"我是稱讚他，我稱讚他有良知。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:31.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:35.732000+08:00","text":"一下講有良知，一下又說……就很奇怪嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:36.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:39:59.487000+08:00","text":"如果真的要談補助費的流變的話，其實大\n家應該都知道，在場很多都是我的前輩，大家都很了解最早、最早立法院在給所謂的助理補助\n時，最早是大水庫理論，也就是直接撥交到立法委員的戶頭，但撥交到立法委員的戶頭之後衍\n生很多問題：第一，有些人沒有辦法全部用完，那就變相變成立法委員自己的金額；第二，當\n出現這樣的事情，要怎麼課稅？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:39:59.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:10.716000+08:00","text":"就是因應這樣的事情，所以才產生了後來的方式，不管是為了\n防弊或是為了避免稅務的複雜，才出現立法院代收代付，所以我覺得這樣子的制度，大家應該\n予以維持。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:11.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:28.346000+08:00","text":"現在我們雖然調升很多助理的補助待遇，但是整個架構都是維持的，也就是這些助\n理待遇一樣由立法院直接撥款到助理的戶頭，所以就不會有大家所懷疑或是指控的說這會跑到\n立法委員口袋，變成立法委員的實質薪資等等這樣的問題。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:28.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:37.769000+08:00","text":"但不管自古以來到現在的流變，本質上，立法委員跟助理之間是僱傭關係，而我們要僱用這\n些助理，錢從哪裡來？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:37.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:42.590000+08:00","text":"當然是立法院編補助金額，我覺得這是正常的法理，所以我就只是把它\n寫清楚而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:43.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:47.752000+08:00","text":"我也要再次強調，民代、議員是這樣寫的，難道議員就除罪了嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:47.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:55.678000+08:00","text":"其實沒有嘛，\n你可以關注很多判例，剛剛莊瑞雄委員也講了，最高法院有最高法院的見解，所以這次修法真\n的就會推翻所有的見解嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:55.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:57.979000+08:00","text":"我覺得也不盡然是如此，所以我覺得大家應該用寬一點的心態來看\n待這件事。以上。錯！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:40:57.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:40:59.480000+08:00","text":"院長，我要馬上回應，這個講法是不對的，因為你第二項明定把它變成立法委員\n的補助費用，這句話就會推翻最高法院的見解了！","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:14.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:20.574000+08:00","text":"莊委員，稍微等一下，因為我要徵詢一下台灣民眾黨黨團要不要發言，因為沈伯洋委員已經\n舉手，所以我一定要徵詢一下台灣民眾黨黨團要不要補充發言？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:20.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:21.574000+08:00","text":"下面一位是沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:21.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:37.564000+08:00","text":"我簡單補充，瑞雄在稱讚有良知的煦庭，今天用的主要就是有良知的煦庭的案子啊，\n台灣民眾黨只是把它規定得更嚴格而已，瑞雄，這裡面沒有一個字有除罪化，你哪個眼睛有看\n到除罪化這個字眼？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:37.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:38.564000+08:00","text":"你實在是笨到會死耶……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:38.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:39.564000+08:00","text":"你實在是笨到會死！協 4","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:39.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.372000+08:00","text":"我跟你說這個就變成立法委員的補助費用，就變成法院沒辦法判立法委員罪嘛！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:47.372000+08:00","text":"這跟除罪化哪有關係？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:47.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:48.372000+08:00","text":"這整個案子強調的都是……啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:48.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:49.372000+08:00","text":"你這個文盲、法盲……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.912000+08:00","text":"都是強化工會助理的福利，你哪隻眼睛看到……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:46.972000+08:00","text":"沒有關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:47.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:48.694000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員發言完畢之後，我就宣告了，好嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:41:48.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:41:49.315000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員請掌握時間，簡短扼\n要，謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:42:02.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:42:27.551000+08:00","text":"這個昨天其實有協商過，但是我以為今天不會硬通過，所以沒有把話講那麼重，除罪\n化跟不除罪化取決於犯罪的構成要件，犯罪的構成要件在貪污治罪條例的第五條的第一項第二\n款，叫做：「利用職務上之機會，以詐術使人將本人之物或第三人之物交付者。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:42:28.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:42:42.997000+08:00","text":"」所以重點是\n今天這個條文訂在貪污治罪條例，如果你今天修了一個組織法，而這個法律會影響到怎麼定義\n所謂的本人之物，這就變成關鍵。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:42:42.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:42:47.539000+08:00","text":"所以以往為什麼詐領助理費會是一個犯罪行為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:42:47.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:42:51.880000+08:00","text":"是因為那個\n本人被認為是國家的財產，而你用詐術騙了國家的財產，這就叫做詐領助理費。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:42:56.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:43:25.402000+08:00","text":"如果今天我們\n把這一個事情，把專業加給以外原本的助理費，就是歲費 5 倍的部分，還沒有寫上限喔，把它\n訂成是立法委員自己的錢的話，這個時候就不會符合第五條第一項第二款的構成要件，這也是\n高虹安案那時候立法院給出來的意見，讓他也變成用一樣的解釋方式，現在就是要把那時候給\n的意見直接明文化，但我是反對這個的。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:43:26.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:11.716000+08:00","text":"第二個，我昨天已經強調過了，有幾件事情要做，其實很簡單，如果藍白都認為這根本就沒\n有除罪化，OK，我也認為沒有要除罪化，如果真的是這樣的話，那很簡單，就把溢領助理費還\n有虛報人頭、還有上限、還有實報實銷寫在上面就好啦，就直接寫說如果我今天是虛報、我今\n天是要求繳回、我是溢領，仍舊回歸貪污治罪條例處理，那就沒問題了，因為這樣的話大家就\n知道這並沒有除罪化，因為剛剛講的那些事情都還是犯罪行為，這樣不就好了嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:11.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:15.978000+08:00","text":"我昨天已經\n講過了，所以照理說，昨天講過的今天應該把它弄上去嘛，但是沒有。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:17.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:18.535000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:18.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:35.582000+08:00","text":"剛剛各個黨團都代表發言，還有列席的委員也都發表了，提案委員也發表看法了\n，我想我們沒有辦法達成共識，我跟各位黨團幹部討論一下，我們現在作以下宣告：本案各黨\n團並沒有辦法達成共識，各黨團就繼續溝通。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:37.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:49.884000+08:00","text":"第二點是最重要的，本日的院會議程草案還沒有確認，所以請各黨團幹部現在到議場後方主\n席休息室，我們進行相關議程的溝通跟確定，好嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:50.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:50.985000+08:00","text":"現在協商散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-30T10:44:51.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-30T10:44:52.627857+08:00","text":"散會（10時 44分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}