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謝謝 謝謝現在民進黨團總召蔡其昌總召也到了 謝謝"},{"start":1887.575,"end":1906.933,"text":"我們現在三個黨團主要總召都已經到了現場我們現在開始進行我們的會議各位黨團幹部今天我們協商的題目有三個第一題是中選會統一權案第二題是刑法及刑法施刑法修正案第三題是李貞秀委員立法委員身份認定案"},{"start":1907.774,"end":1924.4,"text":"我要跟大家報告一下上週五3月6號溝通議程的時候大家都已經有共識就先就中選會同意權案和配合憲法判決修正的刑法以及刑法施刑法修正案均列入本週五的議程"},{"start":1926.158,"end":1941.388,"text":"所以這兩題我們今天優先來協商至於李曾秀委員身份認定我在2月24號的院會也宣告要報黨團協商所以今天也特別一併列入本次的朝野黨團協商那第三"},{"start":1942.571,"end":1961.899,"text":"我們第一題中選會同意全案因為各黨團已經有共識這個禮拜五我們要進行投票表決所以請各黨團跟我們來聆聽一下我們這邊有一個協商的草稿我們請議事人員發下去請大家看一看 沒關係沒問題你看完立刻可以發言總召室我在這邊請邱院長我的一個建議"},{"start":1966.121,"end":1987.095,"text":"今天的協商我們有三案嘛那第一案當然是中央選舉委員會的人事同意權第二個就是刑法的修正我在這邊建議我們是不是先來協商第二項的中華民國刑法的部分條文修正案啦這個案子我們讓他各長團先有"},{"start":1988.355,"end":2013.644,"text":"協商的共識結論然後再來協商我們的中選會的人士同意案我跟陳總統報告第一案是有程序問題我們要確定禮拜五就投票大家同意簽了字之後第一案就結束了我們就進到您現在探討的刑法立刻就會我們第一案就是一個程序請大家稍微看一下就是一分鐘的事情好不好陳總統您先看一下"},{"start":2014.304,"end":2016.493,"text":"我們現在唸一下,我們黨團幹部來唸一下,請各黨團我們一隨便唸一下"},{"start":2022.731,"end":2045.801,"text":"奉主席令宣布宣念這個協商結論草稿決定事項一各黨團同意定於第三次院會3月13日星期五進行中央選舉委員會人事同意權案進行投票表決投票時間為一小時行使同意權案投票時主任委員副主任委員及五位委員被提名人並為一張同意權票"},{"start":2046.961,"end":2073.104,"text":"並由各黨團各推派一人擔任投開票監察員其餘相關投票事務工作依例授權議事處辦理令本次會議施政執行議程於3月17日星期二進行並不處理臨時提案 宣布完畢對 謝謝各黨團幹部 謝謝我們總理選工幹事長也到了現在就是一個程序 你大家同意的話我們就星期五就要投票了我們就把總質詢弄到下星期二如果大家同意請簽名好嗎"},{"start":2074.738,"end":2089.696,"text":"好 謝謝 請簽名投票時間過去都是一個半小時 要不要也對 阿我意思是說這樣會很晚嗎不會啦齁 OK好 陳總召有意見請發言我們這個確定簽字我們這個案就"},{"start":2093.482,"end":2116.341,"text":"就是我們這邊台灣民眾黨的concern是因為等一下還有那個刑法修正案嘛那如果等一下刑法修正案如果大家有共識的話都達成共識的話我們是不是就放在投票後面來處理那如果沒有共識如果當天還要表決還要投票的話可能是不是我們建議就是說那個刑法那個要放到前面去我們剛剛的意見是這樣也是一個程序啦"},{"start":2119.662,"end":2145.218,"text":"所以我的意思是說如果刑法就是第二個案子如果沒有意見的話我們也許就放在後面大家委員比較容易安排我們請高顧問來跟大家報告一下好不好跟各位黨編說明因為我們禮拜五的院會議程要處理中選會那中選會這個記名投票表決要花一個小時那等一下就按照陳青龍總召說要先進行刑法跟市刑法的協商如果我們等一下協商的結論是"},{"start":2146.539,"end":2174.833,"text":"都是照協商條文沒有要表決的情形的話根據動員的習慣那大家可以先把中選會投完那接下來後面其實都不會表決了嘛那所以大家就會要緩為選區的那種但是如果等一下刑法是要表決的我們要放在中選會前面所以要看等一下的狀況對 陳同志您了解我意思嗎 陳同志就是說我們看等一下我們第二案討論的情況陳院長報告我們是要想表達這樣一個方案太好了 好 請國民黨團請發言"},{"start":2177.233,"end":2203.237,"text":"有沒有意見我們就同意了好嗎好那請大家簽字謝謝好我們現在進入第二案我們來介紹一下我們現在列席的法務部政部長請坐我們歡迎法務部政部長司法院許廳長歡迎您請坐前面廳長請坐檢察院國家人權委員會周執行秘書請"},{"start":2207.433,"end":2230.238,"text":"衛福部保護司張司長衛福部張司長還沒來好沒關係我們等一下好第二案我們刑法及刑法施刑法修正案因為法務部行政院及司法院來文我們先請法務部政務部長來說明之後請三個黨團我們來一續發言現在請政務部長請發言"},{"start":2234.797,"end":2262.02,"text":"院長 各位委員 午安非常感謝大院針對刑法部分條文的修正草案召開協商會議希望能夠依照憲法法庭判決使刑法修正案儘速通過避免法律空窗期產生執法的風險這次送請大院審議的修正草案總共有刑法五個條文 刑法私刑法有三個條文修正草案主要是因應憲法的判決維護社會秩序 民眾安全提出來"},{"start":2262.6,"end":2285.175,"text":"那底下有四個重點那第一個重點就是有新增的一個刑法六十三條之一這要因應一一三年宪判八號的判決明定行為史及審判中欠缺責任能力不得克制死刑那第二個重點就是刑法七十七條第三項有徵定特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋這部分大院有眾多的相關的提案"},{"start":2285.855,"end":2305.086,"text":"現在在委員會審議中那第三個重點就是刑法七十八條之一七十八條之二及七十九之一的修正條文那增訂無期徒刑有期徒刑受刑人經撤銷假釋之後呢要如何執行相關的規範那根據一一三年宪判二號的判決呢"},{"start":2306.346,"end":2327.82,"text":"它是在113.3.15日宣告刑法79條之一第五項管理無期徒刑撤銷假釋之後不分撤銷的原因情節的輕重餘力執行20年或25年的規定這是違憲的而且以判決宣誓之日期禁滿兩年後失效恐怕這個如果說有釋放的一個風險會對社會"},{"start":2330.682,"end":2349.693,"text":"秩序跟公共安全有極大的威脅那本部甲證書也出估在15年3月14日就有17位無期徒刑徹甲的受刑人有可能會因此出監那目前無期徒刑徹甲在監執行的高達214人所以我加速立法的急迫跟必要性"},{"start":2350.313,"end":2359.917,"text":"那這一次提出的修正草案主要是依據無期徒刑受刑人撤銷假釋原因輕重的程度分別規定在執行10年15年20年三個得報假釋的一個門檻"},{"start":2364.215,"end":2390.298,"text":"那第四個重點就是為避免新舊法適用的正義所以修正刑法施行法讓法律適用更加的明確可以避免法律的空窗期建議刑法施行法第七條之三 增訂第三項明訂本次修正條文自115年3月14日施行那以上重請 懇請那個大院審酌 社會資訊跟民眾安全來支持 散開修正草案謝謝院長 謝謝各位委員"},{"start":2392.483,"end":2394.392,"text":"謝謝鄭部長的報告,那司法院要補充嗎?"},{"start":2398.285,"end":2423.278,"text":"各位委員午安對各位院長及各位委員及時審議相關條文表示敬佩之意那關於這個兩院會嫌版的部分呢除這個77條司法院加注意見以外呢與均這個會嫌同意那關於這個113憲判2相關的因應條文包括刑法三個條文以及施刑法三個條文這個部分呢他有時間上的壓力那期待盡速審議通過以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2425.813,"end":2432.318,"text":"謝謝以上報告的人為司法院刑事廳的許廳長跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下我們現在請民進黨團很關切請民進黨團請發言國民黨團請準備蔡總召 請"},{"start":2455.449,"end":2472.286,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天針對憲判制這樣的一個判決說無期徒刑撤銷以後那餘率去執行固定的說一定要再繼續執行他也宣示說違憲我們立法院針對這個部分實踐其實是也很"},{"start":2475.492,"end":2480.833,"text":"其實今天通過以後還好法務部今天提出來的條文裡面還有一些補救的措施是不是我們各個政黨看看參佐一下法務部的意見各個政黨大家一起來完成這個涉及到整個社會安全網民主進步黨我們也認為我們也有義務我們也跟各個政黨一樣我相信"},{"start":2499.838,"end":2511.46,"text":"我看中國國民黨還有台灣民眾黨大家私底下看這個法案的時候大家也應該有一定的一個共識啦好 謝謝莊惠雄幹事長的發言國民黨團請表達意見好嗎台灣民眾黨員請準備請翁小玲媛請發言是 主席還有各位委員還有在座的官員們大家好我代表國民黨針對法務部所提出來的這個刑法修正案然後提出一些看法我首先要講的就是"},{"start":2529.744,"end":2547.776,"text":"我希望以後法務部這個要提修法案不要拖拖拉拉大法官這次的修法主要是配合大法官的113年先判之第二號判決當時裡面就要求說兩年之內要修法可是看看你們提出的修法案是什麼時候"},{"start":2548.576,"end":2560.764,"text":"是都是那個兩年已經要到了甚至快要過期了然後之前你們是在去年的12月底才送到立法院來所以某種程度也是江立法院的軍啊現在我們趕快要急著要去通過你們的修法案那麼事實上當然這個修法"},{"start":2567.788,"end":2583.933,"text":"很重要好那我本身我們黨團這邊有討論本身也是支持這個法務部所提出的修法方向那麼當然待會我們會談到有些內容還是要做些調整可是呢我在這裡就是要提醒希望法務部以後"},{"start":2584.949,"end":2606.022,"text":"如果有類似遇到這個大法官審法判決說要快點修法的這個事情你們要加速動作不能夠說是一直拖到最後一刻然後才把條文送出來這個沒有辦法就讓大家能夠真正的充分的討論那麼接下來就是說我們開始進行逐條了嗎"},{"start":2608.493,"end":2636.893,"text":"好 那我就先發言到這邊 待會我們再進行主條再討論 謝謝好 謝謝 請台灣民眾黨員 請發言完畢之後我們進入主條 請好 OK 這個主席還有各位委員 還有各位媒體朋友 大家好那我想我們第一輪發言其實也是想針對這個就是宪判113年宪判2號就是這個提到我們這個五期徒刑如果假設撤銷之後 他的參與刑期如何執行的問題"},{"start":2639.075,"end":2657.226,"text":"這樣的一個問題當然憲判覺得是違憲的那違憲當然憲判也提出說法務部應該進行修法的期限是就是在兩年之內要進行修法那眼看著這個條文呢賞味期限已經到齊了結果我們法務部感覺好像還是有一點聞風不動"},{"start":2658.587,"end":2679.482,"text":"然後在壓線之前才緊鄰大響然後感覺要來處理這個事然後讓我們感覺到說法務部似乎有一點消極不作為那當然 剛國民黨的翁曉琳委員已經提出來了其面我們法務部接下來相關事宜的處理不要再重蹈覆轍那我們民眾黨在這邊也是再一次的呼籲"},{"start":2679.602,"end":2682.105,"text":"我們現在開始進入主條因為時間的關係我們增訂第63條之一是不是大家同意就本條不予增訂"},{"start":2704.807,"end":2707.13,"text":"法務部有意見嗎 我們就不予增訂好 謝謝 我們進入第77條不予修正 維持現行條文 法務部請表達意見"},{"start":2721.772,"end":2739.537,"text":"您壓一下麥克風暫不予徵訂暫不予徵訂 請三個黨團表達不予修正 維持現行條文 請三個黨團表達意見對 我們也是支持暫不予修正民進黨團 台灣民進黨團 OK好 我們第77條就本條不予修正 維持現行條文我們進入徵訂第78條之一"},{"start":2745.748,"end":2769.569,"text":"我們現在行政院、國民黨團、民眾黨團皆有提到修正動議請陳清榮總召請發言有關78條之一我們台灣民眾黨在這邊主條討論之前我先要來嚴正的表達我們整個修78條之一的修正我們有行政院版"},{"start":2770.51,"end":2797.458,"text":"有司法院院版還有法務部再提出一個版本那還不要提我們台灣民眾黨我們有提求證動議中國國民黨也有提求證動議關了院版司法院版法務部的建議版我都不曉得我們要來審哪一個版"},{"start":2798.953,"end":2815.41,"text":"我們已經看不到是行政院還是司法院他們的意見在78條之一竟然是不一致的那法務部提出來又是自己的版本"},{"start":2816.687,"end":2844.601,"text":"那我想我們今天在協商之前我們究竟是要聽鄭明憲部長的還是要聽朱鎔泰院長的還是要來參佐司法院的版本所以在這裡我想一個修正案既然現在判決已經要求兩年內要來修正完成"},{"start":2845.714,"end":2853.226,"text":"那法務部不作為要先最後大家來幫忙來 要來解套這個問題"},{"start":2854.761,"end":2882.673,"text":"但是行政院、司法院、法務部自己就有三個版本那待會加上我們民眾黨的版本中國國民黨的版本總共有五個版本那在這樣的要先處理我們都願意來解決但是我們真的要對行政院、司法院、法務部這三個版本"},{"start":2883.905,"end":2889.171,"text":"有這樣的提出我們真的要表達一點這個強烈的一個意見那"},{"start":2894.313,"end":2920.861,"text":"這樣的一個說明我們也期待以後希望行政院、司法院還有你自己法務部是不是以後有機會在任何的法案都提出一個完整的一個版本才對我以向在主條大家討論之前先做這樣的一個表達謝謝謝謝陳總召那國民黨團有提版本國民黨團請發言"},{"start":2923.519,"end":2950.461,"text":"是 國民黨團這邊提的版本基本上跟先講整個的修法的方向我們是跟法務部是一致的但是對於就是這個撤銷無期徒刑的假釋之後重新回監執行然後是不是要經過多少年才可以再提起假釋的時間我們有不同的看法那麼基本上就是"},{"start":2951.722,"end":2968.573,"text":"現在國民黨團在78條之一提的這個分不同的犯罪的刑期就是依據這個他再犯的刑期的輕重那麼我們認為說如果他再犯的"},{"start":2970.247,"end":2983.916,"text":"這個被判的刑期是一年以下的有期徒刑的話那麼他可以再申請假釋的門檻是到十年那麼如果是在一年以上未滿五年的有期徒刑的話那麼他再申請假釋門檻就延長到十五年五年以上的有期徒刑或是無期徒刑的判刑"},{"start":2994.803,"end":3021.651,"text":"犯這樣的一個罪的話那麼他在申請假釋的門檻就提高到25年也就是說對於無期徒刑他本來就判了無期徒刑可是因為就是被判無期徒刑然後假釋之後然後出獄但是他又再犯了一個新的罪那原則上他應該要回去再去服務無期徒刑可是現在的這個防務部的"},{"start":3022.654,"end":3027.701,"text":"他所定的可以再申請的假釋門檻對於我們來說他們是比較寬鬆所以我們現在把他抓嚴一點我們就調整可以再申請假釋門檻的期間"},{"start":3038.598,"end":3056.979,"text":"好那麼這個部分的話就是對於就是如果說他真的譬如說只是又不就不小心酒醉駕車啦等等可能被判處一年以下的有期徒刑那這時候呢他可能再做十年的牢才可以有機會再申請假釋大概是我們的這樣的方式好謝謝翁小玲委員民進黨請發言法務部請準備"},{"start":3060.135,"end":3078.264,"text":"謝謝主席 還有我們立法院的同仁其實我相信憲判二號他講的其實就是在講一個比例原則啦會判到無期徒刑喔我們也知道說這個是大家認為是犯罪惡行重大才會判到無期徒刑"},{"start":3079.284,"end":3092.537,"text":"無期徒刑它又不是一個死刑這很難處理的一個問題無期徒刑它去作奸它去服刑到一定的程度達到它可以假釋了那其實還要經過很嚴格的考驗就是說你要服刑"},{"start":3100.845,"end":3116.381,"text":"二十幾檔啊第一次報假是你未畢業過第二次未畢業過第三次未畢業過其實無期徒刑撤銷它也不是說我假釋以後再犯罪不只這種情況喔你連違反保護管束我也可以把你給撤銷掉"},{"start":3117.421,"end":3124.025,"text":"那所以憲判制這樣的一個出來以後啊我相信這一題我們不用太多啦其實就是你說司法院跟法務部會不同那當然會不同因為每一個人對比例原則看法會有所不同哪一個會比較高一點因為你說讓他再重新有這個機會再假釋就是在講說看有沒有辦法讓他經過這麼長的服刑以後要不要讓他再回歸到這個社會就只有在講這個而已嘛"},{"start":3145.856,"end":3149.455,"text":"那既然各個政黨行政部門"},{"start":3151.079,"end":3166.903,"text":"現在是司法、立法跟行政我們都肯認一點就是要讓他這樣有機會回到這個社會那回到在這個社會的時候那到底是你這個比例要你要犯輕重有別還是差一點說你是要十檔還是要十五檔還是要去十檔這一題院長我們確實是大家不用有意氣之爭、膽态之爭大家可以好好來討論一下你各黨認為什麼樣的比例原則"},{"start":3181.038,"end":3185.1,"text":"你說12天,我說12天好不好?這也不是話記,你知道嗎?我們再來想想看,然後我們也來參酌法務部,法務部提出這樣的一個修法,他相信其實跟我們各政黨都一樣,就是這個社會安全網,我們要把它補起來,要不然,"},{"start":3204.148,"end":3226.254,"text":"那還好一個回溯條款耶3月14號以後我們今天三檔我們就算通過了以後連總統公告都來不及耶這都來不及啊所以大家都知道各個政黨都知道這一條就是要講比例原則我們心中那一把尺到底到什麼地方我沒有特別的定見希望我們各個政黨大家可以好好來討論這一條這條專播齁都沒動牌這條是整個社會是我們的啦"},{"start":3231.175,"end":3257.451,"text":"他查這個武器奪行的我們都認為 哎喲 如果撤銷了這個武器奪行就叫他死比較快民粹上搞不好民眾都會認為你就是很可惡才會到無期徒刑你無期徒刑被撤銷了 當然禁具在無期徒刑可是 撤銷無期徒刑有太多種嘛你可能犯重罪 你可能犯輕罪你甚至可能是因為違反保護款被撤銷掉那會有所不同 所以這個就考驗"},{"start":3258.291,"end":3259.232,"text":"那法務部長請發言 司法院請準備 謝謝"},{"start":3284.845,"end":3297.802,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們提出來的行政院版的這些的秀章是跟司法院的會選版,這個是一致的那這是參佐那個整個一個憲判,113年憲判至2號的憲法判決的"},{"start":3301.667,"end":3324.399,"text":"他所結株的比例原則那也撤銷假釋的一個原因的一個輕重他請檢的輕重也撤假的一個原因所以建立成績化的再一個假釋的一個門檻那這裡面當然我們分幾個級距啦如果說受刑人只是違反保安處分的規定或因故意犯罪而受未滿五年有期徒刑宣告這個是自信十年就取得假釋的門檻那如果說"},{"start":3327.16,"end":3345.257,"text":"另外在犯罪15年以上未滿10年的有期徒刑的罪執行滿15年可以報假釋如果說10年以上的有期徒刑的門檻是20年那這部分這是我們是依照那個憲法13年宣判2號的一個判決的意思來做一個"},{"start":3345.95,"end":3363.213,"text":"比例原則的以及分歧他那個請檢的輕重及原因來做一個這樣的一個條文的一個設計的那我想我們本部也是完全尊重那個委員的委員會的委員的審議的一個結果就以上的一個報告"},{"start":3363.649,"end":3388.965,"text":"好 許廷長請是 院長各位委員今天審議的是兩院彙弦版的78條之一那關於這個司法院之前就已經彙弦同意因此關於這個78條之一的部分兩院並沒有不同意見法務部跟司法院並沒有不同意見那至於說這個憲判這個主文第一項它只說明就是說應該區別它的情節來設定不同的這個"},{"start":3391.287,"end":3403.613,"text":"這個門檻那這個部分呢不論是這個我們兩院會選版已經有做這個集聚了那國民黨版也有做這個集聚那至於如莊惠雄委員剛剛所講這個詞畫在哪裡那我們尊重政治部門的決定"},{"start":3405.551,"end":3422.957,"text":"謝謝許廷長的補充各黨團幹部我建議我們78條之一顯然我們之間黨團各黨團之間還有一點不太一致的看法我們先進入78條之二以及後面的79條我們達成共識之後我們回過頭來再到78條之一因為後面還有兩條要討論"},{"start":3425.538,"end":3435.526,"text":"好吧這樣會速度會比較快那這個在討論78條之二跟79條的時候請各黨的幹部來思考一下78條之一等一下大家有什麼意見好我們現在進入78條之二我們78條之二各黨的幹部我們就照行政院司法院提案通過好嗎好的謝謝我們現在進入79條之一那"},{"start":3455.424,"end":3465.789,"text":"民眾黨團有提修正動議民眾黨團你要不要表達一下意見 請國民黨團也請準備台灣民眾黨團請表達意見 請"},{"start":3486.499,"end":3504.757,"text":"我們79條之一的一個修正動議是配合78條之一所以基本上我們78條之一如果待會討論完成79條之一自然就是搭配我們的修正動議還是這樣"},{"start":3508.709,"end":3533.528,"text":"是本黨團這裡提出79條之一的修正意見主要是因為我們第77條第二項對 對不起 我們第77條的第三項不修正既然不修正的話 那麼在79條之一的話就要把原來的行政院版的第三項要刪除"},{"start":3537.156,"end":3564.927,"text":"沒有影響就刪掉就是把那個第三項這幾個字刪掉就好但是還是維持79條之一的修正那基本上我們都了解台灣民眾黨團國民黨團的想法我們還是要回到現在我們還是要回到78條之一了好那現在我們回到78條之一那剛剛我們法務部長說明跟司法院的說明已經非常清楚了那翁曉琳委員跟陳總召你們有什麼看法"},{"start":3566.089,"end":3579.603,"text":"莊惠琼委員講的也很清楚 大家看看再討論一會兒 我們就準備要裁決了 好嗎好我這邊還要再強調就是說是因為我們現在修的是說是在那個78條之一是將"},{"start":3585.17,"end":3607.071,"text":"國民黨黨版是在一年以下有期徒刑只要是在犯一百年以下有期徒刑的話那麼他的身體假釋門檻是十年喔這其實這裡面還是有一些需要再思考的地方因為我們知道在現在的毒品相關的犯罪"},{"start":3608.26,"end":3617.012,"text":"的犯罪的刑責有一些可能都還是處六個月以上的有期徒刑 譬如說像是C10"},{"start":3619.089,"end":3626.254,"text":"吸食毒品或是飲用什麼毒品或是有這種什麼轉讓啊等等的或製造這相關的一些器具就它在毒品危害防治條例裡面它有一些犯罪的行為基本上是處六個月以上的是非常輕的但可是我們現在的這個規定我們基本上是不分它到底是犯什麼罪然後只要是一年以下的有期徒刑宣告的話它提起可以再提起假釋的門檻是十年"},{"start":3647.668,"end":3662.848,"text":"所以就這個部分來說的話,似乎我們是不是還是要排除,再增加就要排除這個像是有重大暴力犯罪或者是有違反就是我剛剛講像什麼吸毒啊,毒品危害防治條例裡面"},{"start":3664.27,"end":3678.124,"text":"他如果說被判處的有期徒刑是一年以下但是因為他的罪名是吸毒、失用、轉讓等等的話是不是應該要提高他的假釋門檻會比較好"},{"start":3680.367,"end":3709.034,"text":"好 沒問題 等一下法務部長會回我們先請台灣民眾黨團 請因為你們的版本跟國民黨不一樣請好 主席台灣民眾版本很快的速度把我們的想法跟其他兩個版本的比較跟大家說明一下第一個 我們同意行政院司法院版本的這個第二項也是原來是無期徒刑他假設之後再犯無期徒刑我們基本上是認為沒有假設的可能這個跟行政院跟司法院他們這個版本是一致的"},{"start":3709.674,"end":3723.061,"text":"那另外就是原來是無期徒刑經過假釋後如果他犯的是這個行政版本是五年以下的他基本上那個假釋門檻是放在十年那這個國民黨這邊是會更嚴格一點"},{"start":3726.142,"end":3749.262,"text":"沒有一年的話它大概就是十年那我想這個台灣民眾黨這邊採一個比較折衷的基本上就是還沒有買三年的話我們建議的是十年我再說明一下也就是說原來行政院版本它是五年然後國民黨的版本是一年那我們這邊建議是三年那第二類呢就是五年原來那個行政院版是五年到十年的嘛那我們這邊建議是三年到七年"},{"start":3750.183,"end":3778.116,"text":"那另外一類呢它是屬於10年以上的那這個民眾黨版本是7年以上基本上這個假釋的門檻會變成20年這個大概是台灣民眾黨一個完整的一個概念以上好 謝謝王書記長請莊瑞雄委員請發言謝謝主席我想我也提出一些實務上的來救教大家啦就是說這個是很難判決定啦但問題你也要想想看啦一個人40歲你這判期無期徒刑的話"},{"start":3779.989,"end":3791.853,"text":"要關二十五年嘛你就是六十五歲嘛那六十五歲以後呢你接下來要報假釋無期徒刑我等一下要請法務部來表示一下意見我好像沒有聽說過一次就會過的嘛不可能嘛我也知道到現在為了報十七次、十八次都不會過嘛只要你要報多少次好了假設無期徒刑我把它這樣最好的我不曉得有沒有那種報五次就會過的"},{"start":3808.749,"end":3812.55,"text":"要看個案啦 因為那個是還是要圈毀實據嘛是我的意思是說圈毀實據但是你們應該回去再查查看有沒有統計的一個數字我的意思就是說我不是要跟民粹對幹我們是用實務上來想"},{"start":3827.495,"end":3842.44,"text":"就是說你判處無期徒刑,你如果一個四十年的,你要關二十五年,就六十五歲那六十五歲我出來我喝個酒,後來我看到莊瑞雄,他很討厭我,罵我,我都受不了,去告個他一年以下,你看他這樣又沒有他了"},{"start":3845.9,"end":3867.566,"text":"我一直在想說這四十五歲他這樣到六十五歲報到七十五以前不容易挨到七十歲可以假釋出來以後罵我兩句他又進去關了他變成八十歲才又有機會來報假釋這個就是在講那個比例原則啦不是說我要故意覺得說"},{"start":3868.646,"end":3882.252,"text":"那個出來的人他再犯他不可物不是就是說我們各黨我看起來都還算連法務部的我都覺得很嚴格啦我也覺得很嚴格但是社會大眾會認為你本來就是無期徒刑啊"},{"start":3883.257,"end":3903.464,"text":"無期徒刑你本來就是很可惡啊,出來以後你幹嘛還犯罪有時候真的很難講,有時候出來你說他喝一個燒酒他要把你趕走,我們這裡的政體,日本我們不幫他算的或是說請人家燒茄,他燒熊的這個都是過失傷害啊,這個判下來全部都是啊那我都一直會覺得說,是不是要不要去區分故意或者過失"},{"start":3904.804,"end":3907.445,"text":"這我不敢說啦 這小肥民粹的各個版本大家都到最後互相追殺我就不喜歡但是這一題我為什麼開宗明義去講說我們各個政黨就把它當成是社會那個破網要怎麼樣把它補起來就好一併啊 讓大家再重新再參考一下"},{"start":3924.619,"end":3951.561,"text":"所以 院長我們這些都有一定的會所 有一些社會經驗嘛社會安全我們一定要去補可是實務上我們也要特別去看到說那個一年以下有太多的所謂的一年以下那個不一樣的一個太陽你去給他算會所嘛你給他算會所 一個人關了之後除非我們就認為說他就不要出來了啦不然你如果認為還要讓他再復歸社會的話跟我們這個你說圈毀時劇說出什麼來講圈毀時劇"},{"start":3954.723,"end":3981.682,"text":"就是說這人乖乖乖乖二十五年啊 加寫多少你認為說這個人可以讓他回去了啊回去了以後 涉及到這一種的 這麼的輕微的他又要再重新再進去了 我告訴你 再進去以後啊那個十年你不要以為十年他就可以出來 他是得到假釋而已下次再審的時候 不曉得又要是四次又要是五次一併提給大家參考 這條我不敢有定見這條社會的反撲力量太大了"},{"start":3986.766,"end":4002.397,"text":"陳總召請我們這個民進黨我們專委員的這個建議也非常實務啦齁那台灣民眾黨體的修正案我在這邊再重修一次我們的原則很簡單"},{"start":4004.252,"end":4025.2,"text":"犯無期徒刑 經假釋之後再犯無期徒刑這個是絕對不容寬容的 這個最大的危機這一點我們基本上我們是堅持住這不危險嘛 你不去走行出來 你都反不去走行這工作讓你假釋出來 這人對社會安全嗎"},{"start":4028.956,"end":4053.061,"text":"無法交代第二個我也認同這個就是比例的原則比例原則這個犯罪像剛剛一年他就要再十年對一年以下的獎勵這樣的一個版本所以我們才會提出我們台灣民眾黨的版本從我們法務部的國民"},{"start":4054.661,"end":4082.543,"text":"華為部的版本是五年以下那中國國民黨的版本是一年所以我們從這樣的角度提出用三年用三年所以我們站在一個比例的一個角度還有站在我們社會的一個普遍性的一個一個大多數的一個看法我們來取這樣的一個比例"},{"start":4083.303,"end":4107.879,"text":"所以我們在這裡我們提出我們的版本我們也期待我們民進黨團 國民黨團大家一起來討論那我們也請侯副是不是有機會啊針對我們這樣的折衷版本啊我們不得不今天跟這個汽車公司嘛這個折衷版本然後請侯副表達意見如果OK是不是折衷版本"},{"start":4108.439,"end":4109.2,"text":"是完全尊重那個審理的結果"},{"start":4119.653,"end":4122.235,"text":"我身為主席,完全尊重法務部的意見因為七十八條之一能達成共識最完美"},{"start":4138.965,"end":4167.912,"text":"如果萬一達成不了我們就要送院會送完院會這個過程中還是請法務部跟各黨團繼續來溝通因為這個79條之一跟78條之一它有聯動性的所以就這兩條許廳長您要不要表達一下意見這部分我們也尊重這個委員審議的結果主席也尊重司法院的建議請范議員請我是覺得法務部跟司法院都尊重我們那你們那個提案原來的意思是什麼"},{"start":4169.028,"end":4196.484,"text":"就是說這個數字從未滿五年到未滿一年未滿三年你們都接受嗎我們是跟委員報告我們是這個五年這個是113年憲判二號判決有這個建議那我們是參考他那個建議的那個意見的級距這個級距就是完全是要憲判的一個級距那當然如果說委員認為憲判意思他那個級距OK那我們是希望說委員就"},{"start":4209.648,"end":4224.872,"text":"我想翁委員是法律專業但是比較重要的就是我們現在要怎麼面對社會我想面對社會今天比較大的問題可能要請院長採釋就是三黨即便是有不同的意見"},{"start":4226.417,"end":4245.936,"text":"但確實司法院他們所提出的案子送到立法院來都已經1月了那個時候在密集的審查所有的法案司法院也沒有特別來告知完全沒有特別來告知大法官事件已經兩年到今年3月14號到期"},{"start":4248.676,"end":4273.648,"text":"兩年3月14號到期法務部也來表示當天就要釋放第一批人或者是他們再行看用什麼方式希望立法院盡快來審議但是我們今天立法院是3月5號才知道這個事情3月14號以前要刪讀所以我們今天院長會召集協商也是因為我們收到訊號以後我們也很著急"},{"start":4275.08,"end":4303.021,"text":"但是我們立法院願意全力來協助其實這些本來應該要花很多的時間大家來討論的包括莊立雄幹事長他有不同的看法那其實大法官大法官的判決我們在這裡做一個比較簡單的把它收斂比較簡單的收斂比較簡單的收斂是什麼他說輕罪啊"},{"start":4304.042,"end":4331.387,"text":"跟重罪都一樣撤銷無期的假釋都撤銷了無期的假釋輕罪跟重罪不應該是要一視同仁 類似酒駕所以今天國民黨 翁小林的版本已經在一年以下基本上這種輕罪 酒駕的部分已經就是第一個門檻第一個門檻如果你在拉到五年 五年上基本上已經五年上下其實就很多重罪了"},{"start":4332.591,"end":4359.389,"text":"而且今天販毒法院 或者是這個毒品啦 實用啦或是轉交啦 等等啦 一般都是六個月到八個月啦那這種情況之下 無期徹甲了以後又涉及毒品又涉及毒品 毒品不是說它沒有販賣 是你沒有抓到而已那所以說這個問題 我們的社會安全網到底要補多少次破網"},{"start":4363.223,"end":4387.503,"text":"我想今天比較 院長抱歉喔 因為我在發言好不好你們什麼事都要討論院長喔 今天就是說我們剛剛已經表達為什麼我們在這麼急切的時間院長才是禮拜五要處理完所以我們講的重點 因為這個事情何其重要 何其重大我們從今天到 今天是禮拜三到禮拜五"},{"start":4388.342,"end":4414.731,"text":"等於立法院面對這個事情只有兩天內要解決兩年的事情就要立法院兩天內解決這對社會安全網請問司法院法務部要怎麼交代那所以我想今天的重點是大家各自的版本對人民負責其實今天不是要誰說服誰應該是大家各自的版本對人民交代"},{"start":4416.127,"end":4442.842,"text":"然後呢大家一致決議禮拜五經由院會處理之後我們就給他刪毒這才是重點嘛這才是重點嘛因為我們現在不是要誰了因為兩年的事情我們要兩天之內解決而且你說會判無期不是殺人就是製造販賣毒品這種社會最嚴重之罪"},{"start":4444.11,"end":4455.781,"text":"我們在海之旅來討論說一年多少五年多少這不是蔡市長就誠如莊烈雄幹事長講的這不是蔡市長在講這些嗎這應該用更長的時間來做討論的不是給我們兩天的時間來做結論"},{"start":4459.758,"end":4485.457,"text":"我想各自各自各自政黨各自政黨必須對人民負責我們自己來討論到時候我們來院會處理我想這才是重點好不好還有我要特別強調剛剛大家講的數據是不對的不是什麼叫做25年在94年以前94年以前是無期徒刑10年就可以報假死在94年以後更誇張雖然是號為25年"},{"start":4489.963,"end":4498.988,"text":"但是我們從109年統計到111年有657個人無期徒刑有657個人報假釋平均執行才17.9年根本不是25年滿了以後再往上報假釋那報了N年再出來所以才17.9年就出來"},{"start":4515.785,"end":4526.094,"text":"所以我們今天要正確的數字要讓人民知道讓我們一起來面對這個問題好不好 謝謝主席好 謝謝副總請蔡總召請謝謝主席我想今天討論這個它的關鍵的問題在於要趕快快速的把這個破洞補起來"},{"start":4541.525,"end":4558.522,"text":"這些不應該 憲法法庭判 它沒有依比例原則來處理沒有依比例原則來處理 要求我們來處理這個事情所以今天朝野各政黨大家提的版本 其實都是捕破王的一種方式"},{"start":4559.977,"end":4578.448,"text":"那所以呢剛剛我很尊重法務部跟司法院的意見那他們也會覺得他們提的版本只是依照憲法法庭在判決內容裡面那種集據來做一個幾年必須要幾年後才能夠假釋再犯幾年的罪要幾年後才能假釋"},{"start":4579.622,"end":4597.262,"text":"那其實對我而言,我認為緊述讓這件事情,緊述讓這個法案通過,讓社會沒有恐慌,讓這個問題趕快解決,這個才是立法院今天的重中之重。所以如果司法院跟法務部沒有意見,就如同剛剛我們莊惠雄委員講,他也沒有定見啦。"},{"start":4598.203,"end":4606.297,"text":"所以為什麼會讓主席來裁示的原因是因為這個就沒有什麼叫做國民黨民眾黨或民進黨的問題嗎因為法務部也覺得他的"},{"start":4611.056,"end":4635.626,"text":"他的版本只是依照憲法法庭的那個結果他來定出一個級距他也沒有說哪一個級距是一定最好或一定最對所以如果大家覺得嚴格一點主席才是如果覺得嚴格一點那民進黨也可以接受啊因為我們的目標是快速的讓這個案子通過不要出現違憲的爭議然後不要讓社會出現恐慌這個就是我們今天的目的嘛所以我還是覺得啦這個其實"},{"start":4638.815,"end":4652.698,"text":"這個草野的合作這個法案就是很好的案例所以是不是讓主席來做一個裁示我試試看我先說一個裁示那我們78條之一 79條之一我們就送院會處理在這個送院會處理期間"},{"start":4654.401,"end":4681.261,"text":"這個期間請法務部能夠跟各黨團用有限的時間來進行一個溝通到最後我們禮拜五院會一定處理那也回到三個黨團總召一個良議啦就是說在禮拜五之前我們完成三讀這一點是大家都已經有這個共識我們大概還有兩天的時間部長有借這個空檔跟三個黨團來溝通禮拜五我們就要進行處理了好不好七八"},{"start":4682.381,"end":4688.668,"text":"七八聊之一跟七九聊之一它連動的愛情沒有好 我們休息五分鐘 部長喘口氣 休息五分鐘"},{"start":4703.926,"end":4704.567,"text":"沒有一點事做嘛"},{"start":4733.118,"end":4733.819,"text":"兩天要我們處理這個問題"},{"start":4755.501,"end":4773.07,"text":"阿今天是要轉所以我也聽完他講所以我們也會講說完全是重視國際運動的神聖禮貌因為不管是民眾黨反抗或不民黨的反抗我還是要多今天把他處理好所以我們三個想要確認所以不要說你們倆我沒有要看你我沒有要看你"},{"start":4783.695,"end":4792.257,"text":"你要做什麼?你這個頭要逛,你應該要知道有誰講法,你是誰講法所以他打給標籤的所以FIX這些FIX都不曉得FIX那所以你不拜託"},{"start":4801.34,"end":4802.241,"text":"所以說你們在講話你們都是"},{"start":4819.063,"end":4830.498,"text":"就禮拜五六三 趕十四號集合餐就是這樣 好不好那至於什麼版本 可能三個檔期間一起來互相代表一下 一定要有一天的時間好不好 謝謝"},{"start":4836.505,"end":4836.885,"text":"好感動"},{"start":4852.25,"end":4857.156,"text":"你再去跟人家報仇,我也支持你,但是又沒有結婚"},{"start":4872.733,"end":4873.074,"text":"對 我們還要進行討論"},{"start":4890.708,"end":4897.573,"text":"我們進來時期比較好那你怎麼叫公民拜國主義啊我們在拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義拜國主義"},{"start":4915.385,"end":4919.21,"text":"因為保護在今天不見他就要保護他說上個班很多客"},{"start":4933.767,"end":4934.368,"text":"那這一批的"},{"start":4964.07,"end":4964.552,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5309.824,"end":5328.735,"text":"好 謝謝 我們休息完畢以後 大家顯然還沒有辦法達成一致的共識我們就把78條之一 79條之一保留送院會處理我們現在進入施行法這邊有三條條文第七條之二第七條之三及第七條之四修正條文"},{"start":5332.346,"end":5353.471,"text":"第七條之二我們就照國民黨那個修正動議協商內容的通過各位黨團員沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝我們增訂第七條之三本條保留請司法院請表達意見"},{"start":5355.688,"end":5383.685,"text":"剛剛討論七條 國民黨版施行法七條之二第一項部分建議在那個倒數第二行第一個字後 後面加一個者就但書這邊但怎麼樣 行為終了或犯罪結果發生加一個修正施行後者七條之二啊七條之二第一項"},{"start":5387.335,"end":5404.871,"text":"再單書齁 那這個倒數第二行94年1月7日刑法修正施行後加一個者加一個記者的者 可以好那我們就修正通過 謝謝許廳長那增訂第七條之三"},{"start":5405.97,"end":5434.15,"text":"那司法院行政院還有國民黨團所提修正案本條就保留了我們就送到院會像剛才刑法第七十八條之一樣好不好好我們現在進入徵定第七條之四本條照司法院行政院跟國民黨團所提的本條不予徵定請問各黨員有沒有意見沒有意見好那我們在哪裡在哪裡院長"},{"start":5436.278,"end":5462.741,"text":"莊委 熊莊委 請發言各位長 報告齁 因為剛也已經裁示啦齁 說要請法務部 要去想一下但是我也特別要去提醒啦這一次其實因為剛去講說什麼司法院跟法務部是同調其實我不認為你們有同調啦 你知不知道現判喔 現判那個二號啊其實我也有去把他看得很清楚啦他倒是有去規定輕重的部分 他對於"},{"start":5464.002,"end":5470.731,"text":"那個保護管署的部分它有列嘛它有列給你們參考嘛它就說保護管署其實它是三五檔啦"},{"start":5472.305,"end":5486.794,"text":"當然是他在 憲判他是在理由書裡面講啦我是很怕說我們又留一個尾巴啦有一個尾巴 因為畢竟喔再去觸犯刑法跟違反保護管束啊這個部分是 這個是輕重確實會有所不同雖然憲判二號裡面他是在整個理由書裡面這樣去提到我 我是一併去提醒你們啦否則齁 否則這這個案裡面啊照大家的意思 我沒意見啦啊 但是不是事後還有一些"},{"start":5500.842,"end":5504.227,"text":"不要說好事之徒啦他有人一發現以後你看你們三個黨秀出來了又跟那個憲法法庭的解釋又不一樣了至少我們也去跟他們回應一下會不會好一點我不知道 一併提"},{"start":5515.342,"end":5538.067,"text":"提供行政部門做一個參考好不好啊不然你說行政院的看法跟司法院的看法是一樣的我從憲判理由書裡面看你們其實是還是有有不一樣的一個地方以上好謝謝卓榮雄為善意的提醒各位黨團幹部還有列席的法務部司法院所有列席的官員我們現在讓我嘗試性的來念一下我們今天達到了寫上的結論"},{"start":5539.307,"end":5560.693,"text":"寫商的主題行政院司法院罕見審議中華民國憲法刑法部分條文修正草案及中華民國刑法實行法第七條之二第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案我們達到的寫商結論有三條一中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案一第六三條之一不予爭定二"},{"start":5561.213,"end":5574.27,"text":"第67條不予修正維持現行條文更正第77條不予修正維持現行條文三第78條之一及第79之一均保留送院會處理"},{"start":5576.292,"end":5598.622,"text":"四 第七十八條之二 照行政院司法院提案內容通過二 中華民國刑法實行法第七條之二 第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案一 第七條之二 照協商內容通過 享入附件二 第七條之三 保留送院會處理三 第七條之四 不予整頂"},{"start":5600.173,"end":5621.832,"text":"上開兩岸於3月13號院會處理中選會同意權案之前進行處理陳總召這句話你有聽到喔你最關心了並同日完成三讀處理之後廣泛討論及逐條討論後均不再發言逐條時保留條文依各黨團版本提出先後進行處理"},{"start":5623.753,"end":5646.042,"text":"兩岸完成三讀之後,均不提出複議。完成三讀之後,各黨團推派一位委員進行發言。請問各黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,請簽字。謝謝。那謝謝法務部跟司法院還有列席的各位官員,謝謝啊。好,我們進入下面一案,今天朝野協商的第三題。"},{"start":5651.38,"end":5665.146,"text":"我們現在進入言商李貞秀立法委員身分認定相關事宜本案由民進黨黨團提議我們現在介紹今天列席的官員"},{"start":5676.069,"end":5679.591,"text":"我們今天列席的官員首先我們介紹內政部劉部長"},{"start":5703.715,"end":5732.692,"text":"我們內政部還有一些相關類型的官員我就不一一稱呼了我們現在中選會吳副主委 歡迎您 請坐請坐你這麼大的名號怎麼上面沒有你的名字 是我們的私底歡迎歡迎 請坐請坐在後面 對不起對不起我們今天因為案子有一點亂 不好意思"},{"start":5734.098,"end":5742.551,"text":"會會的邱主委好謝謝我們會場稍微拜託一下大家請就座好嗎要離開了就請謝謝大家好"},{"start":5750.297,"end":5764.325,"text":"要跟各位黨團幹部的列席官員報告一下我們這個李貞秀委員選舉過程中我等一下我先請相關的官員報告完畢之後我們再請提案的黨團 民進黨團請表達意見依序國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團繼續表達意見我們先請內政部部長陸惠珠 中選會分別表達意見好嗎 請"},{"start":5772.047,"end":5795.849,"text":"謝謝院長三個黨團的各位幹部大家好內政部所主管的國籍法在這個案件裡面是根據國籍法第20條的規定這個20條的規定講得非常清楚也就是說公職人員在就職或到職前一日應該出具放棄國籍的一個申請書我們收到這個申請書之後"},{"start":5797.591,"end":5813.694,"text":"那當然希望他在一年裡面呢就完成這個放棄那在二十條裡面規定的非常清楚就是說有關民選公職尤其是在立法委員的部分呢他的解職機關是在立法院那這個都寫在國際法二十條裡面非常的清楚"},{"start":5814.395,"end":5829.889,"text":"那所以呢相關的那個法律呢我想各位委員也都非常的清楚所以我們在從這個李貞秀女士呢在宣誓就職或者是說在這個報道的時候呢都有三度啊去函包括我們立法院的這個秘書長還有包括中選會或者是陸委會等相關機關提供這方面的訊息給大家參考"},{"start":5837.816,"end":5858.089,"text":"那到目前為止我們也還是沒有收到這個李貞秀委員所提報的有沒有放棄這個中華人民共和國國籍的任何的證明書那當然這是影本因為他如果要提報的話是提報給這個立法院因為立法院是這個立法委員的一個任職機關所以以上我們的認定是到目前為止還沒有收到"},{"start":5863.112,"end":5872.463,"text":"那既然還沒有收到的話呢應該是他沒有辦法依照國籍法來擔任這個立法委員的資格以上簡單報告好謝謝我們請陸委會邱志偉中選會請準備"},{"start":5877.116,"end":5897.092,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝三黨的黨團官部各位委員有關於李正修女士任職相關的法律規範第一是不符兩岸條例第21條登記參選的資格陸配取得定居資格後仍然如果有保留中國大陸戶籍的話"},{"start":5898.533,"end":5922.787,"text":"依據兩岸條例仍屬中國大陸人民不符合兩岸條例第21條參選資格兩岸條例第二條規定具有中國大陸戶籍者為中國大陸人民第九條之一規定國人不得在中國大陸設立戶籍為者註銷在台戶籍登記並喪失台灣人民身份及法律權利"},{"start":5923.867,"end":5949.088,"text":"我們在第21條規定中國大陸人民未在台灣設有戶籍滿10年不得登記為公職候選人所以兩條例第21條適用的前提必須是該原入籍人士已經在台設籍並且不具有雙重戶籍才有可能起算在台設籍10年的期間"},{"start":5950.285,"end":5975.939,"text":"第二點參選人登記時如果還具有中國大陸人民的身份依法就不具有參選資格如果參選人登記時如果具有中國大陸人民身份他台灣人民的身份就會有爭議也違反了兩岸條例單一戶籍的制度自然無法起算兩岸條例第21條涉及滿10年期間不具有兩岸條例21條的參選資格"},{"start":5978.9,"end":6006.098,"text":"那所以李貞秀女士雖然在1999年就是民國88年在台涉及但是我們一直到2025年3月她才提出繳交喪失中國大陸戶籍的證明所以政府確認李貞秀女士從結婚來台到2025年3月前都沒有向海基會或"},{"start":6007.179,"end":6035.155,"text":"移民署提出任何註銷中國大陸戶籍的證明文件李貞秀女士在112年年底列為不分區立委名單當下也未向移民署提出繳付上司中國大陸戶籍證明身份轉換程序並未完成事證比較明確政府依法行政所以在法律上並無任何任何的爭議以上謝謝"},{"start":6036.857,"end":6062.489,"text":"邱主委的報告中選會您請表達一下意見好嗎我們三個黨團幹部很急切的想聽到您的講法好 院長還有我們三黨團的各位委員我想我們中選會的立場我們依照公職人權選罷法的73條第一項第三款的規定來完成六位的這個地步那現在如果有發現到說自死就資格有問題我們就會提我們新成立的委員會來做審議討論以上"},{"start":6066.65,"end":6085.423,"text":"好,我們請提案的民進黨團表達意見,國民黨團請準備謝謝主席、院長,還有我們各位同仁李貞秀委員,這個台灣民眾黨連接的委員,我們特別有意見這個是一個到底法律要不要適用的問題"},{"start":6086.724,"end":6108.994,"text":"我相信擔任中華民國的國會議員每一個人對於國家都必須要有忠誠的一個義務你擔任這個公職如果說有忠誠義務的一個衝突的話這當然是有備於整個法律的一個規定我相信剛剛內政部劉部長還有陸委會還有我們中選會這個地方都有提到我就反過來講"},{"start":6111.124,"end":6139.606,"text":"中選會現在的說法是說,你們這裡都說來了,到底有符還沒有,對我如果有一個,我們中選會,我們人有夠了,我們來開會,有開會你覺得不符合,你這個部分很顯然的就是提及司法訴訟的一個,你們要走的路嘛,這是中選會,但問題就是說,你按照陸委會跟內政部的講法來講的話,其實也是我們法律的一個規定,國際法的規定,或者說兩岸人民關係條例的一個規定,大家很清楚嗎?"},{"start":6140.717,"end":6159.064,"text":"李委員的部分 李振秀的部分不是我在說你這個人不好 我現在不是跟你說這個現在是在說國籍的部分很顯然的國籍法你違背了戶籍法的部分你說你這個人到底有租給人參算嗎如果是沒有的 那是致死"},{"start":6160.174,"end":6183.176,"text":"自始就沒有這樣的一個資格所以我倒不認為這個是黨團的問題我覺得這是韓院長你該傷腦筋這個議題啊我說我們 你幹嘛我不是對你什麼人有意見嗎你什麼人我也不認識你啊是說我們法律確實就是這樣的一個規定啊"},{"start":6184.057,"end":6188.7,"text":"內政部也不是要敵視你台灣民眾黨你陸委會也不是要敵視你台灣民眾黨這個是我們法律明文規定不論是誰來執政對於國家忠誠義務的衝突的部分你怎麼處理的問題啊所以我相信這條是合議啦一定你就發揮一下你的智慧啦那其實是有沒有放棄文件拿出來就很清楚嘛"},{"start":6208.268,"end":6212.591,"text":"這張,這張我以前叫過,有這張我今天去黨團準備的,我們都要簽給我們立法院的本人,這一張啊,院長這張大家都要簽,連立立也要簽,大家都要簽的啊,這個是很清楚的啊"},{"start":6224.546,"end":6242.358,"text":"你如果簽 大家都有簽 只有你沒有 還是你要倒退 跟別人不一樣的這個就你台灣民眾黨要去對外解釋喔今天大家講的不是說我們要剝奪誰 都不是是誰有沒有符合這樣的一個資格 可不可以當國會議員你說哪一個政黨 我們這個政黨說可以就可以 你要留下去"},{"start":6243.927,"end":6260.859,"text":"對你 你是都沒人能夠撐嗎 你要留在那裡 台北我也沒意見 我也不能說我的意見我是站在於說 不管誰要進到立法院來 國家都是大家的大家照官來就是說 第一天老百姓被你的期待 你要對這個國家賦予忠誠的義務當這個忠誠義務 人家認為說 你怎麼有兩個國籍 你怎麼有兩個戶籍的時候"},{"start":6267.524,"end":6274.25,"text":"產生衝突的時候法律規範要怎麼處理其實這個部分是清清楚楚的以上跟大家來再說一個說明"},{"start":6283.374,"end":6306.008,"text":"首先有關於國籍的爭議的部分剛剛內政部引用的是國籍法第20條但是因為事實上依照憲法徵修條文第11條的規定自由地區跟大陸地區的人民關係的權利跟義務是以法律為特別的規定所以適用的應該是我們兩岸特別條例當然大陸人民並不是國籍法定義的外國人"},{"start":6306.508,"end":6329.721,"text":"所以內政部引用國籍法其實已經逾越了這個憲法徵修條文的相關規定那兩岸條例根據憲法徵修條文第十一條授權制定的這個特別法所以本來特別法應該就是要優於我們的普通法的法律所以關於參政權當然應該優先適用兩岸人民關係條例那當然限制人民的參政權屬於限制人民的基本權利必須要有法令的規定"},{"start":6330.481,"end":6349.1,"text":"那現行的兩岸人民關係的條例並沒有要求陸配必須放棄國籍證明行政機關如果自己擴權的解釋的話就是違反依法行政屬於行政的一個濫權那因為兩岸互不承認主權所以中國大陸根本不接受陸配申請放棄國籍所以陸委會主委"},{"start":6350.021,"end":6376.646,"text":"隨政主委都已經講過了從來沒有一個陸配能夠成功的完成放棄中華人民共和國的國籍既然在現實上是不可能完成的任務法律就不該強人所難那針對戶籍的部分我們知道就是依據兩院條例第21條的規定非在台灣地區設有戶籍滿10年不得登記為公職候選人但10年的起算點並沒有明定以繳交上司員籍證明為起算點"},{"start":6377.606,"end":6395.302,"text":"那李政秀委員其實在1990年就已經取得台灣身份證跟戶籍既然內政部當時就已經核發了他身份證以及取得戶籍代表就已經符合兩岸人民關係條例第21條的設有戶籍滿10年的規定那根據李政秀委員的說法他其實在19"},{"start":6396.723,"end":6415.296,"text":"99年就已經依法獲准在台定區設立戶籍同時也註銷在大陸的戶籍所以去年3月他申請的是證明文件並不是辦理處級所以說他是在就職前就已經完成了行政的一個補件並不會影響他存在的法律的身份所以我想"},{"start":6416.016,"end":6440.872,"text":"李政策委員既然已經獲得中選會的審核通過也在大法官的面前宣誓完成那多年來政府也認可他公民的身份所以參政權應該受到保護所以為民進黨認為法律的漏洞其實應該透過修法來解決而不是在當事人依法地譜之後才進行這樣的政治追殺以上謝謝徐宇甄委員的發言請台灣民眾黨團請發言"},{"start":6442.742,"end":6470.214,"text":"好 謝謝院長首先謝謝我們韓國瑜韓院長保護我們每位立法委員我記得韓院長之前公開表示會保障每位立法委員的一個問證這是我們院長的天職在這裡臺灣民眾黨表達感謝那我先就法的部分跟我們實際的情況"},{"start":6471.26,"end":6491.849,"text":"我先問一下我們各位請問我們民進黨政府陸培是外國人嗎?陸培如果外國人如果你認定陸培是外國人那當然你就來採用國際法的規定那從憲法的政修條文我們"},{"start":6495.666,"end":6524.205,"text":"就是無法用國籍法來處理兩岸人民的一個問題所以我們才會在憲法徵求條文來徵定了兩岸人民關係條例來把它分為台灣地區跟大陸地區那就正如我們舊法來講兩岸人民關係條例是特別法一定優於普通法那就是因為要來"},{"start":6526.247,"end":6548.692,"text":"適用於兩岸人民的一個往來交流所以才制定了這樣的兩岸的沒關係條例那如果今天以我們內政部也好我們陸委會也好所論述的要依據國際法來處理"},{"start":6551.707,"end":6574.582,"text":"那我就在這裡直接請問我們陸委會你有存在的必要嗎?陸委會為什麼存在?今天陸委會的存在這個事就可以來反證我們在大陸地區跟台灣地區"},{"start":6576.428,"end":6599.502,"text":"我們兩個人民是沒辦法用國籍法來處理舉一個簡單的例子我們台灣人民到大陸去我們拿的是台胞證大陸地區人民來到台灣拿的是乳台證這是我們國籍法"},{"start":6605.209,"end":6613.076,"text":"這一個認定嗎還是經由兩岸的民關係條例來執行的我在這邊來說明李正秀這個李正秀當然是我們現在的一個合法合規的立法委員但是他也代表我們廣大的陸配這樣的一個身份"},{"start":6635.151,"end":6637.233,"text":"他是否適用國籍法這一個問題那我在這邊我們認證部所提的他應該要適用國籍法第20條第一項跟第四項規定的中華民國國民取得外國國籍者及中華國民中華民國國民兼具外國國籍者"},{"start":6663.597,"end":6689.066,"text":"這一個國際法的一個立法就是由我們立法院來認定那認定後的處理絕對不是內政部或內政部的下轄機關來質疑可以扭曲來解釋的因為法律是由我們立法院所制定的那立法原意的李征秀他不是中華民國"},{"start":6690.988,"end":6711.351,"text":"國民取得外國國籍者 不得擔任中華民國公職的使用對象我再講一次 李貞秀不是中華民國國民再取得外國國籍者然後不得擔任中華民國公職的使用對象"},{"start":6714.229,"end":6733.104,"text":"中華民國國民取得外國國籍者是指本為中華民國的國民後來去辦理而取得了外國國籍本來就是中華民國的國民後來又去辦理而取得外國的國籍那陸配 陸配"},{"start":6736.161,"end":6762.21,"text":"他原來就不是我們中華民國的國民我們兩難條例制定的時候是界定為中華民國人民人民他須向政府申請許可來台定居與社利戶籍的同時領取了我們中華民國的國民身份證從而才成為具有中華民國國籍的國民"},{"start":6765.485,"end":6782.363,"text":"兩岸人民在對岸進軍註銷了原色戶籍的同時因需被收繳或註銷國民身份證和護照而喪失國籍這樣兩岸人民才會有單一的身份或單一戶籍"},{"start":6783.084,"end":6804.416,"text":"在這樣的情況之下,在兩岸關係的法制用叫做轉換身份,根本就不從於國籍法中的規劃。所以申請應該由內政部依法進行條件的特期而喪失國籍,我在這裡講。"},{"start":6806.195,"end":6818.276,"text":"李貞秀他原來就本身不是我們中華民國的國民去取得外國國籍所以他他不是私人"},{"start":6819.833,"end":6846.959,"text":"所以就這個過程李征秀他絕對適用於我們兩岸人民關係條例所定的大陸地區跟台灣地區所適用的條文這裡我一定要在這裡先說明清楚那我在這邊也來再做一個表達我們兩岸人民關係條例在蔡英文總統執政的時候"},{"start":6850.11,"end":6876.051,"text":"從頭沒有問題也沒有這個爭議來到現在賴清德總統執政的時候陸培的參政權變成了一個爭議這樣的一個一套法律會因為不同的執政者執政黨而有不同的一個解釋跟說明我想"},{"start":6877.567,"end":6906.223,"text":"這是應該是一個政治的操作而不是就法律的一個認定那我也來請教陸委會我們現在有陸配成功的放棄中國的國籍嗎?有這樣的案例嗎?那我也來請教海基會也請教內政部你這些委員啊"},{"start":6907.645,"end":6922.151,"text":"他也適時的到大陸去放棄了他的戶籍也取得了證明那這個證明也經過了我們還機會文件的一個認定那這樣的一個驗證的結果確實他也註銷了戶籍但是在這樣的一個過程我們"},{"start":6936.308,"end":6940.921,"text":"內政部 我們陸委會還是可以不同的一個解釋"},{"start":6942.389,"end":6968.88,"text":"那我想請教海基會的驗證海基會的驗證是不具備效力的嘛海基會不是受我們內政部的委託授權委託做我們兩岸人民關係的文件做驗證嗎那海基會驗證的文件你內政部不承認嗎"},{"start":6970.481,"end":6979.872,"text":"所以種種的這樣的一個過程我們還是認定這是稱職操作理政協委員任期參選經過我們中選會的資格審查成為合格的一個候選人"},{"start":6992.446,"end":7021.005,"text":"經過全體國民的一個投票今天正式經過中選會這個通知頒發的讓選證書成為中華民國立法院的立法委員也依照規定在高法官的面前來宣誓就職效忠中華民國"},{"start":7022.686,"end":7038.192,"text":"這樣的一個宣示他已經完成所有的法定程序他就是一個合格合法的一個立法委員這是班長團在這邊做以上的一個表示"},{"start":7039.793,"end":7057.782,"text":"那個莊銳雄委員發言之後請中選會內政部準備來答覆一下好不好我們來介紹一下我們請莊銳雄委員請二次發言范雲委員請準備好 謝謝院長那其實我很尊重青龍雄的發言啊但是有幾個地方我也不得不指出來啦"},{"start":7059.468,"end":7084.949,"text":"我現在我從八九十到十一擔任立法委員我也都經過大法官的宣示現在如果發現我有像李貞秀同樣的狀況的話那我也自食不服這個資格倒也不是說因為大法官宣示了以後啊這個資格就是說你們任何人都不可以剝奪我們現行法律的規定是你只要有這些狀況"},{"start":7088.409,"end":7107.255,"text":"現在怎麼來處理的問題 這第一個第二個 其實剛剛你提到的都是在講國籍法第一項國籍法第一項沒有錯 它是中華民國國民取得外國國籍者你的意思就是說 我是中華民國國民 我再去取得中國的國籍你這樣會誤導"},{"start":7109.11,"end":7123.129,"text":"本案在講的是第四項,是中華民國國民你本身兼具外國國籍者,你這要看好,我很怕你們會跟你講完,沒關係我們來溝通一下啦,就是說"},{"start":7124.11,"end":7146.933,"text":"法律大家會有不同的一個看法啦 因為你說如果要這樣就不用有陸委會的一個存在全世界很多的一個 陸委會這個存在我就不用我多費口舌嘛這就貴於國民黨執政的時候就這樣嘛 這一個比較特殊的一個安排你們要認為把它當成中歐國 中華人民共和國 我是不承認的它不是一個國家 我也沒有意見"},{"start":7148.533,"end":7166.362,"text":"任何一個國家你取得他的國籍以後你也不擔保你馬上有參政權啊每一個國家可以做一個他自己的一個安排啊你取得因為你是中華民國的國民了我也可以跟你講如果我們立法院我們同意的話我們也可以講說你五年後再來"},{"start":7167.617,"end":7194.995,"text":"十年後你可以參選什麼每一個國家他可以做這樣的一個安排所以我們都不要顛倒過來講我是比較想知道說你說他有去申請放棄中國的戶籍保溫我沒有意見因為那個有經過海基會的認證可是要注意的就是說我們今天講的是在講說那個參選資格的十點他到底是不是有具備"},{"start":7196.076,"end":7198.757,"text":"你如果有具備,那具備的民進黨在跟你說什麼?我們在跟你說什麼?沒有嘛!我們現在就是說事實來做一個澄清啦!就是說這個時間點你還要做,你要登記候選人的時候,你那個時候如果說,哎喲,你連中國還有戶籍,那違反!違反!那個是各個政黨之間,對他這個要把他當成候選人的時候,你們自己沒有去弄清楚!"},{"start":7220.441,"end":7246.333,"text":"不去創情策啦不是說你們台灣民眾如果落錯就落錯什麼人可以做不可以做我們現在不講個別國會議員的好跟壞我們現在不是談這些是說那自始他有沒有取得這樣的一個資格那如果沒有啦進來了以後就像我講的我偷偷摸摸進來當了世界立法委員沒有一個人看出來我有另外國家一個國籍發現了以後我也是解職啊"},{"start":7247.642,"end":7252.849,"text":"也是這樣子啊 不是說大法官來給我監視的事實我不能講說 欸 那大法官都派人來勒四天我都站在那裡 他給我作證 我就是中華民國的立法委員倒不是這樣子 以上來大家做一個參考啦好 范議員請發言"},{"start":7264.14,"end":7292.03,"text":"我這邊也想補充跟澄清的是因為剛剛有人提到說什麼蔡英文執政或者是賴總統執政那我要講就是說這個跟誰執政沒有關係也跟歧視哪一個群體無關又很明確的是就是這是參政權不是人權參政權是特別的一種權利每個國家都有這樣的規定那事實上呢我想剛剛還有人提到說已經宣誓了好像已經怎麼樣了中選會審查"},{"start":7293.63,"end":7314.105,"text":"過了那是不是就一切都是擔保那我舉個例子今天你大學考上大學拿到註冊通知甚至拿到學生證那後來如果發現畢業證書是偽造的或者資格不符學校當然有權利撤銷學生證就自然失效或者是繳回所以我要講的事情是過去"},{"start":7315.947,"end":7333.165,"text":"李慶安也因為被發現是美國籍是雙重國籍時間是2009年1月那時候是國民黨執政所以這沒有歧視美國人的問題那現在當然也沒有歧視中國人或者是來自對岸的陸配也跟誰執政沒有關係我們是在守護法律"},{"start":7333.726,"end":7359.101,"text":"那剛剛就是你們還有提到說這個不是外國籍就是之前我們都有提到說兩岸互不隸屬所以中國不算外國國籍那我提醒大家的部分是其實行政院在112年就已經函釋了那個時候也沒有發生這個案子就是當處理到國籍的時候除了中華民國國籍以外其他都是外國國籍這是很明確的"},{"start":7359.941,"end":7378.67,"text":"因為像我們在處理院士資格的時候也都有相關的討論那為什麼這件事情很重要因為國籍法是一個普通法那它很明確講到公職的單一國家效忠那我要提醒大家這不是台灣獨有的民主國家都有譬如說我最近做國會外交的澳洲它也有這樣的規定"},{"start":7379.89,"end":7405.965,"text":"那還要再提醒大家不只是這種沒有明確敵國的澳洲如果是有明確敵國的其實規定是更嚴格的大家如果去看看芬蘭愛沙尼亞這種明確旁邊有俄羅斯的規定更嚴格因為這個是國家安全其實也是保護相關人的人身安全因為你雙重效忠比如說對岸最近通過了已經不只是制裁支持台獨的連不積極統一的"},{"start":7408.226,"end":7426.571,"text":"他都有可能會懲戒對岸最近要立這個法所以我最後回來要講的是之前我一直都是呼籲民眾黨自己就可以解決這個問題因為這是不分區嘛那可是民眾黨沒有回應那我覺得立法院應該要自己處理所以才會在我們上一屆的"},{"start":7427.751,"end":7446.012,"text":"三長的公文請那個韓院長來秉公調查那我們依照法律的話事實上國籍法20條就有明定除了剛剛莊瑞雄所講的他最後是說中華民國國民兼具外國國籍者應於到職前辦理放棄外國國籍"},{"start":7447.694,"end":7472.044,"text":"前面各位可以看一下還明訂立法委員由立法院解除其公職就是如果有這種雙重國籍的狀態所以立法院是有這個責任應解除的所以我想請問秘書長因為剛剛我們專業熊幹事長已經告訴大家宣誓的時候有這張表格我們每個人都提過上面明確問你國籍法"},{"start":7472.944,"end":7487.205,"text":"然後所以講得很明確是要自己親簽才宣誓的那如果李貞秀委員就明確的說謊而且我發現不只這張單子連我們的人事資料我自己的資料也找出來了也有問你"},{"start":7488.72,"end":7514.971,"text":"就是說有沒有外國國籍有明確溝所以他如果在這裡就說謊那就不是我們之前聽到的中選會申報書說謊放棄戶籍說謊那這秘書長可以公佈啊那秘書長我想請問秘書長就是說我們今天是不是能夠看看他是不是有明確說謊因為我覺得這個資料很重要那不要跟我說個資提醒大家個資法有一條但書"},{"start":7515.871,"end":7543.738,"text":"涉及公共利益的時候就是不受這個個資法的保護個人資料的限制那這是公職的擔任有沒有違反這個國籍法裡面相關的規定那兩岸人民條例違反的這個陸委會已經講過很多次了我們就不爭論了我自己是覺得立法院不是法外之地韓院長就是這是一個超越藍綠的我剛剛以李慶安為例那是在馬英文"},{"start":7544.138,"end":7545.079,"text":"你放心你發言沒問題今天不能夠找出來嗎因為只有113份而已啊"},{"start":7566.707,"end":7595.19,"text":"好 那我有權要求因為那個公文除了經驗協商之外裡面有請韓院長調查稍微你放心 你發言完我們就會我們會做我們應該的處理那翁曉琳委員發言之前我們請人事處黃處長先唸一下我們人事處黃處長把這個李正修委員的資料也調出來那個李正修委員我們在就任前就有請他填句那個回覆書那他當事人他委員他是牽涉他只有中華民國國籍不具有外國國籍"},{"start":7596.53,"end":7603.597,"text":"他這就是明確說謊啦 他有三份資料說謊所以我們立法院應該可以自己處理好 翁小玲問請發言"},{"start":7605.899,"end":7631.199,"text":"我覺得每次跟民進黨只要是討論到有關於國籍的問題的時候我就覺得那個根本就是這個雞同鴨講看看我們中華民國憲法怎麼規定看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面怎麼規定什麼叫做國家統一錢你的國家到底是指的什麼國家我覺得劉思芳部長常常都會就是企圖用現在他們去曲解國籍法去曲解中華民國憲法來搞兩國論我不客氣就是這麼說"},{"start":7634.778,"end":7655.483,"text":"你們可以修憲啊你們可以把國家的統一前的這幾個字給它修掉啊你們有提案嗎為什麼不敢提案按照我們現在中華民國憲法裡面所談的就是一國兩區我們的主權是涵蓋到大陸地區除了自由地區之外就是大陸地區治權我們現在是在台澎金嘛所謂的這個在憲法上面我們講的是自由地區這會涉及到什麼國籍法"},{"start":7664.158,"end":7674.762,"text":"你國籍法的話你要承認中華人民共和國它是個外國你們有這樣承認嗎?你們有這樣宣誓嗎?你們現在的做法是這樣嗎?你們跟他們取得的是什麼樣的關係所以我就說不要在那邊一直曲解在誤導國人在我們中華民國憲法裡面就講得清清楚楚在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也是一樣它第一句是怎麼說的"},{"start":7691.4,"end":7709.146,"text":"什麼是你的國家?所以你還是中華民國的內政部的部長你有仔細把這個條文有讀好嗎?你了解這裡面的文字的意涵嗎?更何況我覺得更可笑的是今天我們要去判斷一個人是否忠誠竟然是以他有沒有涉戶籍來判斷"},{"start":7710.779,"end":7723.585,"text":"李征秀委員當他取得中華民國的身份證的時候他就代表他已經放棄了那邊的國籍因為那邊的戶籍就已經放棄了在大陸地區的戶籍"},{"start":7724.861,"end":7746.058,"text":"因為這是兩岸有默契 當取得了台灣的戶籍 大陸那邊的戶籍他就自然放棄那麼同樣的我們台灣的同胞如果說是在大陸取得了戶籍我們這裡也是不承認啊 這邊可能就是除籍了所以這很清楚的事情 他什麼時候取得了身份證就什麼時候具有所謂的公民權 就具有參政權你有撤銷他的身份證嗎"},{"start":7750.219,"end":7762.226,"text":"沒有啊 他這個經過了選舉 當選 中選會也頒發給他當選公告我們現在立法院 我們沒有說不承認他作為一個立法委員的身份不管是從國際法 從兩岸關係條例裡面來講你們今天的說法都是錯誤的"},{"start":7772.438,"end":7786.136,"text":"你就是故意要搞族群的對立族群的撕裂這樣有意義嗎所以呢我認為說其實這個案子這個沒有必要因為時間的關係現在40分那個行政部門需要補劉部長你要補張請"},{"start":7787.909,"end":7808.399,"text":"謝謝院長給我補充的機會內政部是國籍法的主管機關當然國籍法是在立法院修正通過的這個我們都知道我們在主張各種不同主張的時候絕對不會做擴張式的解釋台灣的陸配跟台灣的陸配有沒有參政權"},{"start":7809.58,"end":7831.171,"text":"或者是他有沒有具備可以擔任中華民國立法院委員是不一樣的今天我們當然是以李貞秀委員是不是具有立法委員的資格來做討論有一些委員所提的部分我想有四點來做一下解釋 越快越好第一個 按照憲法第三條的規定"},{"start":7832.714,"end":7852.62,"text":"具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民那剛剛也有委員提到因為我們憲法徵修條文11條有講到兩岸人民關係條例那兩岸人民關係條例是在規範兩岸人民的往來而且如果有衍生法律事件的特別立法"},{"start":7853.24,"end":7878.963,"text":"但是兩岸條例裡面的第二條僅以涉戶籍地的定義來定義台灣人民跟中國大陸人民從兩岸條例八十一年九月十八日施行以來有一些機關在解釋的時候呢不管在認定中國大陸人民或是中華民國國民呢都有一些不同的權利義務上的解釋那我們也都知道從八十一年到現在我們已經有"},{"start":7879.343,"end":7904.418,"text":"很多的這個變遷包括台灣有舉行過相當多的這個選舉或者是有七次的這個憲法變遷所以呢我們應該知道涉及台灣的國民資格認定是屬於重大的權利義務事項要用法律來明確規範不可以用這個行政命令那按照中央法規標準法的第五條第二款的規定"},{"start":7904.878,"end":7927.974,"text":"關於人民的權利義務事項應該用法律來定之我想這個大家都沒有疑議因此呢有關這個兩岸人民關係條例沒有規範的部分也就是說有關國籍之取得或國民身份之認定因為兩岸條例並沒有規範應該適用我國其他有關法律來論斷不能用"},{"start":7930.275,"end":7949.971,"text":"韓式來代之這是我剛剛解釋的部分那再來民國89年國籍法的修法已經將定義國籍的用詞由中國人修正為中華民國國民那依照我國現有的相關法律規定舉凡應考試服工職"},{"start":7951.452,"end":7970.483,"text":"參政、納稅、服兵役、受國民教育、加入全民健保等等中國大陸人民不具中華民國國籍非屬中華民國國民自不享有或負擔中華民國國民的權利義務那這些部分呢都是行政院秘書長韓在112年的時候"},{"start":7973.405,"end":7997.401,"text":"根據所有兩岸人民關係條例或是中央法規標準法還有國籍法裡面的所作的解釋那同時也提到了這個兩岸條例從81年公佈施行迄今已經超過30年兩岸互不隸屬是兩岸現況和既存事實中國大陸人民與中華民國國民也是明顯有別以上"},{"start":8001.508,"end":8017.907,"text":"專委員再次發言 然後陳委員麻煩簡短一下好嗎 我要做宣告 請專委員請謝謝院長 我也再簡短啦齁那其實啊 那這個案子啊倒也不是說做出認定以後啊任何一個政黨會損失一席不會 我們現在是在資格大家再做一個論證"},{"start":8019.269,"end":8043.93,"text":"假設李委員這個被認定為說他不具備資格這一席還是你台灣民眾黨的這個第一個啊 今天做一個聲明那第二啊 剛剛國民黨的朋友就提到了你說啊 這個中華人民共和國跟我們中華民國同屬一國是兩區 這我尊重我相信中國跟中華民國會是一國這個在國民黨裡面我也不認為是一個共識所以我說我尊重但是呢"},{"start":8044.951,"end":8069.74,"text":"我們台灣我們中華民國並不會因為你取得中華民國的戶籍就自然的另外一個國家的戶籍就會喪失不會不然兩岸人民關係條例第九條第一項根本就不需要去再次規定禁止雙重戶籍跟你講說六個月內應該繳交儲籍的一個證明不會啦不會說因為你在台灣已經有一個戶籍了"},{"start":8070.2,"end":8076.833,"text":"所以在其他國家的戶籍就自動的一個喪失不會啊 如果我們立法院頂這條兩岸人民關係條例九條之一要幹什麼 以上"},{"start":8079.245,"end":8107.894,"text":"我簡單補充我們都是依法論法內政部依法就是國籍法依的就國籍法那李正秀委員就是不適用國籍法就是很簡單的一個答案那李正秀委員應該要適用兩岸人民關係條例也就是我們陸委會的兩岸人民關係條例那這倒是互解的問題那李正秀委員他也"},{"start":8109.119,"end":8124.579,"text":"去到大陸去辦理這個戶籍的一個註銷那也經過我們海基會的驗證這個我剛剛已經說明了那李政協委員到現在他就是我們中華民國的國民"},{"start":8126.451,"end":8146.145,"text":"他的身份證也沒有被我們內政部註銷啊他的戶籍也沒有被我們內政部註銷啊他就是唯一具有中華民國國名你有中華民國國名身份證唯一設籍在中華民國台灣在這邊生活三十年"},{"start":8147.126,"end":8157.126,"text":"那如何放棄中華人民共和國的國旗那我這邊也請教內政部能不能指導一下"},{"start":8158.322,"end":8179.041,"text":"我們的孫立芳將軍他1968年出生在中國大陸1982年來台灣現在是在我們國防部來任職請問他有沒有放棄中華人民共和國這國籍如果有他怎麼放棄能不能來指導我們告訴我們如何放棄"},{"start":8180.342,"end":8201.553,"text":"作法人民共和國的國籍,這不只是李正修委員,也包括所有在台灣居住的陸培同胞民進黨以為奧德就是人權利國,其實陸培也是我們生活在台灣,已是同仁,我們沒有任何差別待遇"},{"start":8203.094,"end":8213.914,"text":"這是今天他們的參政權在兩岸的民關係條例也有明確的一個定定大家就依法論法依法"},{"start":8216.052,"end":8236.793,"text":"來執行他已經完成了放棄戶籍的認證在這樣的過程當中我希望我們這樣的一個EVA取得中華民國立法委員的資格這樣的一個立法委員我們不應該在這裡在對他的資格有任何的質疑"},{"start":8237.874,"end":8263.065,"text":"莊惠 請其實我不想再講啦可是因為陳委員你講這個論述是不對的啦你知道嗎兩岸人民關係條例第一條裡面兩岸人民關係條例不是特別規定你去看兩岸人民關係條例的第一條的最後一段說本法所沒有規定的依其他相關法律的一個規定所以兩岸人民關係條例是一個補充的一個規定來照顧陸配"},{"start":8264.386,"end":8269.872,"text":"誰嫁到台灣取得中華民國的國籍那當然就是中華民國的國民我們要照顧他"},{"start":8271.072,"end":8297.009,"text":"沒有問題可是參政權的規定任何一個國家都會做一定的一個規範你今天入籍美國你今天入籍英國入籍到其他的國家也不是說你入籍了以後你馬上取得參政權啊也會有時間上的一個安排啊那我們今天討論的就是說到底李委員他有沒有符合我們整個國籍法的規定或者說我們的整個戶籍法的一個規定"},{"start":8301.372,"end":8324.954,"text":"至此取得以後如果沒有違背的話那還是溯及他這個身份還是會去取消以上我再次說明我倒不是在講說他這個人好跟壞我就不認識他嘛我們是在講說這樣的一個候選人裡面到底是不是符合我們現行法律的規範他當初在取得你台灣民眾黨在在推薦你這部分開會時主席有否合謀"},{"start":8327.336,"end":8331.881,"text":"怎麼會講到什麼民主進步黨我們台灣中華民國主張人權立國是啊各個政黨都是人權立國啊並不是他取得以後打壓台灣民眾黨你少了一席沒有我們在講說有沒有取得這個參政權的問題沒有任何打壓就算李委員他今天假設他"},{"start":8348.098,"end":8358.82,"text":"不具備立法委員的資格,也沒有人去跟你說他的國籍把它給取消什麼什麼,這個不是台灣人的媳婦沒有人會做這樣的一個主張啦,這曾經說,回去沒那麼大討論這個案件的時候,到純粹我們說就法論法,我們就把法律拿出來講我們有哪一點地方講得不對,你們也可以提出說我們講的是不對的,沒有關係好不好"},{"start":8372.332,"end":8389.727,"text":"因為時間大家討論,謝謝各黨團干杯,謝謝今天列席的官員。我想我們也充分討論,但是沒有辦法達成共識啦。容許我做兩點的宣告。一,本次協商黨團既然沒有辦法達成共識,又有事實跟法律有待釐清之處。"},{"start":8390.919,"end":8407.671,"text":"在相關事實查明之前以及司法最終判決之前有鑒於李貞秀委員即完成就職宣誓其立法委員身份及職權行使應該予以尊重現在散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:00:26.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:01:21.762000+08:00","text":"謝謝到場的國民黨黨團的書記長、首席副書記長，現在民眾黨黨團正與國防部長溝通國防預\n算，民進黨黨團正在開中常會，都在趕來的路上，所以非常感謝兩位準時到場，也謝謝法務部\n鄭部長跟各位列席官員，非常感謝，麻煩再等一下，謝謝。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:01:21.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:01:22.903000+08:00","text":"現在民進黨黨團蔡其昌總召也到了，謝謝。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:01:22.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:02:11.716000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的陳總召也到了，謝謝，還有邱幹事長，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:02:11.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:02:17.341000+08:00","text":"現在三個黨團的總召都已經到了現場，現在開始進行會議。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:02:17.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:02:30.913000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，今天我們協商的題目有三個，第一題是中選會人事同意權案，第二題是刑法\n及刑法施行法修正案，第三題是李貞秀委員立法委員身分認定案。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:02:31.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:04.267000+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告一下，上週五\n（3 月 6 日）溝通議程的時候大家都已經有共識，中選會人事同意權案和配合憲法判決修正的刑\n法及刑法施行法修正案均列入本週五的議程，所以這兩題我們今天優先來協商；至於李貞秀委\n員身分認定案，我在 2 月 24 日的院會也宣告要黨團協商，所以今天也特別一併列入本次朝野黨\n團協商。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:03:06.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:21.657000+08:00","text":"有關第一題的中選會人事同意權案，因為各黨團已經有共識於這個禮拜五進行投票表決，所\n以請各黨團幹部聆聽一下，我們這邊有一個協商的草稿，請議事人員發下去，請大家看一下。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:03:21.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:22.657000+08:00","text":"主席，我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:03:22.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:23.858000+08:00","text":"沒關係，沒問題，你看完立刻可以發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:03:24.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:25.559000+08:00","text":"我在這邊請求院長……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:03:25.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:03:59.918000+08:00","text":"我提一個建議，今天的協商有三案嘛，第一案是中央選舉委員會的人事同意權，第二\n個是刑法修正案，我在這邊建議我們是不是先來協商第二項中華民國刑法配合憲法判決的部分\n條文修正案，這個案子我們讓它先有各黨團協商的共識結論，然後再來協商中選會的人事同意\n權案。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:00.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:10.861000+08:00","text":"我跟陳總召報告，第一案就是程序問題，我們要確定禮拜五就投票，大家同意、簽了字之後\n，第一案就結束了，我們就進入您現在所提到要探討的刑法修正案，立刻就會進行。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:10.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:16.243000+08:00","text":"我們的第\n協 2\n一案就是一個程序，請大家稍微看一下，就是一分鐘的事情，好不好？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:17.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:17.624000+08:00","text":"陳總召，您先看一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:18.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:20.473000+08:00","text":"我們現在先來唸一下，請議事人員唸一下。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:26.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:30.673000+08:00","text":"高顧問百祥：奉主席令，宣唸協商結論草稿。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:31.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:42.458000+08:00","text":"決定事項：一、各黨團同意定於第 3 次院會 3 月 13\n日（星期五）進行中央選舉委員會人事同意權案記名投票表決，投票時間為 1 小時。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:42.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:04:58.207000+08:00","text":"二、行使\n同意權案投票時，主任委員、副主任委員及 5 位委員被提名人併為一張同意權票，並由各黨團\n各推派一人擔任投、開票監察員，其餘相關投票事務工作依例授權議事處辦理。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:04:59.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:05.013000+08:00","text":"另本次會議施\n政質詢議程於 3 月 17 日（星期二）進行，並不處理臨時提案。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:05.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:06.975000+08:00","text":"宣讀完畢。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:06.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:09.457000+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部，謝謝，我們莊瑞雄幹事長也到了。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:09.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:17.104000+08:00","text":"現在就是一個程序問題，大家同意的話，我們星期五就要投票了，我們就把總質詢挪到下星\n期二，如果大家同意，請簽名，好嗎？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:18.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:19.779000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，請簽名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:19.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:22.102000+08:00","text":"請蔡總召，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:22.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:27.989000+08:00","text":"院長，投票時間過去都是一個半小時，要不要也……\n對，我意思是說這樣會很趕嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:27.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:28.089000+08:00","text":"不會啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:28.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:29.130000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:29.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:31.293000+08:00","text":"陳總召有意見，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:31.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:33.536000+08:00","text":"這個案子確定後簽字，我們就可以到第二案。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:38.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:51.194000+08:00","text":"我們台灣民眾黨 concern 的是因為等一下還有刑法修正案嘛，如果等一下刑法修正案\n大家有共識、都達成共識的話，我們是不是就放在投票後面來處理？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:51.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:05:58.119000+08:00","text":"如果沒有共識，如果當天\n還要表決、還要投票的話，我們建議是不是刑法那個案子放到前面去？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:05:58.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:00.161000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛的意見是這樣\n，也是程序的部分。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:03.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:10.026000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說如果第二個刑法的案子沒有意見的話，我們也許就放在\n後面，大家委員比較容易安排時間。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:10.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:12.568000+08:00","text":"我們請高顧問來跟大家報告一下，好不好？好。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:13.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:49.208000+08:00","text":"高顧問百祥：跟各位黨鞭說明，因為我們禮拜五的院會議程要處理中選會這一案，中選會這一案的\n記名投票表決要花一個小時，那等一下就按照陳清龍總召說要先進行刑法跟施行法的協商，如\n果我們等一下協商的結論都是照協商條文，沒有要表決的情形的話，根據動員的習慣，大家可\n以先把中選會投完，接下來後面其實都不會表決了嘛，所以大家就會要……但是如果刑法這一\n案是要表決的，我們要放在中選會前面，所以要看等一下的狀況。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:49.208000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:50.208000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:49.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:51.590000+08:00","text":"對，您了解我的意思嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:51.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:54.871000+08:00","text":"陳總召，就是說我們看看等一下第二案的討論情況，這是可以挪動\n的。","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:54.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:57.893000+08:00","text":"跟院長報告，我們也是想要表達這樣的方案。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:58.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:58.353000+08:00","text":"OK、OK，太好了。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:06:58.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:06:58.813000+08:00","text":"好，請國民黨黨團，請發言。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:01.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:02.753000+08:00","text":"如果沒有意見，我們就同意了，好嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:02.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:07.634000+08:00","text":"好，那請大家簽字，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:07.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:09.234000+08:00","text":"好，我們現在進入第二案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:11.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:40.515000+08:00","text":"我們來介紹一下現在列席的官員，我們歡迎法務部鄭部長；司法\n院許廳長，歡迎您；監察院國家人權委員會鄒執行秘書；衛福部保護司張司長，衛福部張司長\n呢？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:40.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:40.875000+08:00","text":"還沒來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:40.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:42.396000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我們等一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:44.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:53.938000+08:00","text":"協 3\n第二案是刑法及刑法施行法修正案，因為法務部、行政院及司法院來文，我們先請法務部鄭\n部長說明之後，再請三個黨團來依序發言。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:54.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:07:54.218000+08:00","text":"現在請鄭部長，請發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:07:58.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:08:01.259000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員，午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:08:02.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:08:15.611000+08:00","text":"非常感謝大院針對刑法部分條文的修正草案召開協商會議，\n希望能夠依照憲法法庭的判決，使刑法修正案儘速通過，避免法律空窗期產生執法的風險。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:08:15.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:08:28.321000+08:00","text":"這\n次送請大院審議的修正草案，刑法總共有 5 個條文，刑法施行法有 3 個條文，修正草案主要是\n因應憲法的判決，維護社會秩序與民眾安全而提出來，以下有四個重點。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:08:28.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:08:39.408000+08:00","text":"第一個重點就是新增的刑法第六十三條之一，這是要因應 113 年憲判字第 8 號的判決，明定行\n為時及審判中欠缺責任能力不得科處死刑。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:08:40.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:08:51.256000+08:00","text":"第二個重點就是刑法第七十七條第三項有增訂特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋，這部分大院有眾\n多的相關提案現在在委員會審議中。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:08:52.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:09:05.944000+08:00","text":"第三個重點就是刑法第七十八條之一、第七十八條之二及第七十九條之一的修正條文，增訂\n無期徒刑、有期徒刑受刑人經撤銷假釋之後要如何執行的相關規範。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:09:06.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:09:37.544000+08:00","text":"根據 113 年憲判字第 2 號的\n判決，它是在 113 年 3 月 15 日宣告刑法第七十九條之一第五項，關於無期徒刑撤銷假釋之後不\n分撤銷原因情節的輕重，一律執行二十年或二十五年的規定是違憲的，且於判決宣示之日起屆\n滿兩年後失效，恐怕這個如果有釋放的風險，會對社會秩序跟公共安全有極大的威脅。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:09:37.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:09:53.673000+08:00","text":"本部矯\n正署也初估，在 115 年 3 月 14 日就有 17 位無期徒刑撤假的受刑人有可能會因此出監，目前無期\n徒刑撤假在監執行的有高達 214 人，所以有加速立法的急迫跟必要性。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:09:54.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:03.917000+08:00","text":"這一次提出的修正草案\n主要是依據無期徒刑受刑人撤銷假釋原因輕重的程度，分別規定再執行十年、十五年、二十年\n三個得報假釋的門檻。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:08.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:33.298000+08:00","text":"第四個重點就是為避免新舊法適用的爭議，所以修正刑法施行法，讓法律適用更加明確，可\n以避免法律的空窗期，建議刑法施行法第七條之三增訂第三項，明定本次修正條文自 115 年 3 月\n14 日施行，懇請大院審酌社會秩序跟民眾安全來支持上開的修正草案。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:33.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:34.298000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、謝謝各位委\n員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:36.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:37.146000+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭部長的報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:37.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:38.392000+08:00","text":"司法院要補充嗎？請。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:42.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:47.308000+08:00","text":"許廳長辰舟：院長、各位委員，午安，對院長以及各位委員及時審議相關條文表示敬佩之意。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:48.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:10:55.151000+08:00","text":"關於\n兩院會銜版的部分，除第七十七條司法院加註意見以外，餘均會銜同意。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:10:56.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:09.813000+08:00","text":"關於針對 113 年憲判字\n第 2 號相關的因應條文，包括刑法 3 個條文以及施行法 3 個條文，這個部分有時間上的壓力，\n期待儘速審議通過，以上報告，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:09.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:14.897000+08:00","text":"以上報告人為司法院刑事廳的許廳長，跟各位黨團幹部報告一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:15.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:16.178000+08:00","text":"我們現在請民進黨黨團，很關切，請民進黨黨團發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:16.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:16.298000+08:00","text":"蔡總召？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:16.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:39.449000+08:00","text":"莊幹事\n長，請。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:39.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:11:39.589000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:11:40.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:04.113000+08:00","text":"我想今天針對憲判字的判決說無期徒刑撤銷以後一律去執行固定的……說\n一定要再繼續執行，他也宣示違憲，我們立法院針對這個部分，其實時間也很急迫，今天通過\n以後，還好法務部今天提出來的條文裡面還有一些補救措施，我們各個政黨看看是不是參酌一\n協 4\n下法務部的意見，各個政黨大家一起來完成這個涉及到整個社會安全網的法案。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:04.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:29.999000+08:00","text":"民主進步黨也\n認為，我們也有義務，我們也跟各個政黨一樣，我相信中國國民黨還有台灣民眾黨私底下看這\n個法案的時候，大家應該有一定的共識。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:30.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.159000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長的發言。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.339000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請表達意見好嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.519000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.599000+08:00","text":"請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:31.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:33.800000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員，還有在座的官員們，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:33.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:35.060000+08:00","text":"我代表國民黨針對法務部所提出來的\n刑法修正案提出一些看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:12:35.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:12:59.328000+08:00","text":"我首先要講的就是，我希望以後法務部要提修法案不要拖拖拉拉的\n。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:13:01.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:13:11.756000+08:00","text":"這次的修法主要是配合大法官 113 年憲判字第 2 號判決，當時裡面就要求兩年之內要修法，可\n是看看你們提出的修法案是什麼時候？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:13:12.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:13:16.098000+08:00","text":"是兩年已經要到了，甚至快要過期了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:13:16.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:13:24.524000+08:00","text":"之前你們是在去\n年的 12 月底才送到立法院來，所以某種程度也是將立法院的軍，我們就要趕快、急著去通過你\n們的修法案。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:13:24.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:05.659000+08:00","text":"事實上，當然這個修法很重要，我本身、我們黨團這邊有討論，也是支持法務部\n所提出的修法方向，當然待會我們會談到有些內容還是要做一些調整，可是我在這裡要提醒一\n點，希望法務部以後如果有遇到大法官憲法判決說要快點修法的事情，你們要加速動作，不能\n一直拖到最後一刻才把條文送出來，這樣沒有辦法讓大家真正的充分討論。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:07.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:10.022000+08:00","text":"接下來我們要開始\n進行逐條了嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:12.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:14.815000+08:00","text":"好，那我就先發言到這邊，待會進行逐條時再討論，謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:14.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:16.256000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:16.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:19.838000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨黨團發言，發言完畢之後我們就進入逐條。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:21.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:23.641000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員，還有各位媒體朋友，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:24.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:14:40.893000+08:00","text":"我們第一輪發言也是想針對 113 年憲\n判字第 2 號所提，無期徒刑如果假釋撤銷之後殘餘刑期如何執行的問題。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-11T14:14:43.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:12.434000+08:00","text":"這個問題憲判覺得是\n違憲的，因為違憲，憲判也提出法務部應該進行修法的期限，就是在兩年之內要進行修法，眼\n看著這個條文賞味期限已經到期了，結果法務部感覺好像還是有點文風不動，在壓線之前才警\n鈴大響，要來處理這個事，讓我們感覺到法務部似乎有一點消極不作為。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:12.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:23.482000+08:00","text":"當然剛剛國民黨的翁曉玲委員已經提出來了，期勉法務部接下來相關事宜的處理不要再重蹈\n覆轍，我們民眾黨在這邊也是再一次呼籲法務部只此一次，下不為例！","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:23.482000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:24.482000+08:00","text":"否則大家可能會覺得我\n們的法務部怎麼這麼消極不作為，我們期待看到的是一個積極作為的法務部，以上說明。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:24.482000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:25.482000+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團的邱幹事長，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:24.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:24.583000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我們現在開始進入逐條。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:24.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:26.105000+08:00","text":"增訂第六十三條之一，是不是大家同意本條不予增訂？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:26.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:48.807000+08:00","text":"對，本條就先不討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:48.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.188000+08:00","text":"好，法務部有意見嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.748000+08:00","text":"我們就不予增訂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.768000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.989000+08:00","text":"我們進入第七十七條。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:49.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:50.709000+08:00","text":"不予修正，維持現行條文。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:15:50.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:15:51.130000+08:00","text":"法務部請表達意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:07.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:08.473000+08:00","text":"暫不予增訂。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:08.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:09.193000+08:00","text":"暫不予增訂。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:10.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:13.834000+08:00","text":"不予修正，維持現行條文，請三個黨團表達意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:13.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:15.314000+08:00","text":"對，我們也是支持暫不予修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:15.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:16.995000+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團、台灣民眾黨？OK！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:17.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:22.116000+08:00","text":"協 5\n好，第七十七條就不予修正，維持現行條文。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:22.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:23.517000+08:00","text":"我們進入增訂第七十八條之一。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:30.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:34.873000+08:00","text":"現在行政院、國民黨黨團、民眾黨黨團皆有提修正動議。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:34.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:16:36.354000+08:00","text":"請陳清龍總召，請發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:16:37.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:17:39.390000+08:00","text":"有關第七十八條之一，我們台灣民眾黨在逐條討論之前要先嚴正的表達，針對第七十\n八條之一的修正有行政院版、有司法院院版，還有法務部再提出一個版本，還不要提我們台灣\n民眾黨，我們有提修正動議，中國國民黨也有提修正動議，光是院版、司法院版、法務部的建\n議版，我都不曉得我們要審哪一個版，我們已經不知道要看行政院還是司法院的版本，他們在\n第七十八條之一的意見竟然是不一致的，法務部提出來的又是自己的版本。","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:17:41.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:17:56.635000+08:00","text":"我們今天在協商之前究竟是要聽鄭銘謙部長的，還是要聽卓榮泰院長的，還是要參酌司法院\n的版本？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:18:00.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:18:17.226000+08:00","text":"一個修正案既然憲判都已經要求兩年內要修正完成，但法務部不作為，壓線到最後要\n大家來幫忙、來解套這個問題。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:18:18.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:18:39.850000+08:00","text":"但是行政院、司法院、法務部就有三個版本，待會兒加上我們\n民眾黨的版本、中國國民黨的版本，總共有五個版本，要這樣來處理，我們都願意來解決。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:18:39.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:19:16.078000+08:00","text":"但\n是對於行政院、司法院、法務部這樣提出三個版本，我們真的要表達強烈的意見，我們也期待\n行政院、司法院還有你們法務部自己，以後對於任何法案都要提出一個完整的版本才對！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:19:16.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:19:23.280000+08:00","text":"以上\n是在大家逐條討論之前我先做這樣的表達，謝謝。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:19:23.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:19:23.280000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:19:23.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:19:24.841000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團有提版本，請國民黨黨團，請發言。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:19:28.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:19:52.219000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團這邊提的版本，基本上對於整個修法方向，我們跟法務部是一致的，但是\n對於撤銷無期徒刑的假釋之後重新回監執行，是不是要經過多少年才可以再提起假釋的時間，\n我們有不同的看法。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:19:53.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:20:43.325000+08:00","text":"基本上，國民黨黨團在第七十八條之一提出分不同的犯罪刑期，即依據再\n犯的刑期輕重，我們認為如果他再犯被判的刑期是一年以下有期徒刑的話，那麼可以再聲請假\n釋的門檻是到十年，如果是在一年以上未滿五年的有期徒刑，再聲請假釋門檻就延長到十五年\n；五年以上的有期徒刑或是犯無期徒刑的罪，他再聲請假釋的門檻就提高到二十五年。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:20:44.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:21:11.701000+08:00","text":"也就是\n本來被判無期徒刑然後假釋出獄，但是又再犯了一個新的罪，原則上他應該要回去再服無期徒\n刑，可是現在法務部所訂的可以再聲請的假釋門檻，對於我們來說是比較寬鬆的，所以我們現\n在把它抓嚴一點，調整可以再聲請假釋門檻的期間。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:21:24.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:21:38.857000+08:00","text":"如果說他真的只是不小心酒醉駕車等等，\n可能被判處一年以下的有期徒刑，這時候可能再坐十年的牢才可以有機會再聲請假釋，我們修\n法的方向大概是這樣。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:21:39.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:21:40.499000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:21:40.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:21:40.979000+08:00","text":"民進黨請發言，法務部請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:21:44.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:21:47.377000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席及立法院的同仁。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:21:49.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:22:08.549000+08:00","text":"我相信憲判字第 2 號講的就是比例原則，大家都認為犯罪\n惡行重大才會判無期徒刑，但無期徒刑又不是死刑，是很難處理的問題。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:22:08.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:22:46.204000+08:00","text":"無期徒刑是坐監服刑\n達到一定的程度才可以假釋，其實還要經過很嚴格的考驗，也就是要服刑二十幾年後，第一次\n報假釋未必會過，第二次未必會過，第三次也未必會過，其實無期徒刑撤銷也不限於假釋以後\n再犯罪的情況，連違反保護管束也可以撤銷，所以憲判字公告以後，這一題大家不用爭辯，你\n說司法院跟法務部的意見不同，當然會不同，因為每一個人對比例原則的看法不同，可能某一\n協 6\n部分會比較高一點。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:22:46.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:22:47.924000+08:00","text":"因為讓受刑人重新有機會再假釋，就是看有沒有辦法讓他在服這麼長的刑\n期後，要不要讓他再回歸社會，就是在講這個重點而已。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:23:10.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:23:29.843000+08:00","text":"既然各政黨、行政部門，也就是司法\n、立法和行政都肯認一點，就是要讓他有機會再回到社會，但到底這個比例要依犯行的輕、重\n有別，還是要以刑期十年、十五年或二十年來區分？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:23:29.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:23:45.218000+08:00","text":"院長，這一題大家不用有意氣及黨派之爭，可以好好討論各黨認為的比例原則，若你說十年\n，但我如果說十二年好嗎？","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:23:45.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:23:46.199000+08:00","text":"這不能用喊價的方式，我們再來想想看，也來參酌法務部提出的修\n法內容。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:23:46.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:24:15.310000+08:00","text":"相信法務部跟各政黨都一樣希望將社會安全網補起來，不然……還好有一個回溯條款\n，不然 3 月 14 日的期限，今天三黨就算通過了，連總統公告都來不及。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:24:19.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:24:29.594000+08:00","text":"各個政黨都知道這一條\n是在講比例原則，我們心中那一把尺到底如何丈量，我沒有特別的定見，希望各個政黨可以好\n好討論，這一條內容是不分黨派的，與整個社會有關。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:24:30.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:24:41.239000+08:00","text":"關於無期徒刑，我們認為如果撤銷之後\n還有無期徒刑，那叫他去死還比較快！","quality":0.452},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:24:42.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:25:02.331000+08:00","text":"雖然民粹上民眾可能認為很可惡才會判無期徒刑，無期\n徒刑若被撤銷了，當然進去再無期徒刑，可是撤銷無期徒刑有太多種，可能是因為犯重罪、可\n能是因為犯輕罪，甚至可能是因為違反保護管束而被撤銷，那會有所不同，所以這就考驗各位\n不同黨派的委員大家的想法，你覺得那個比例原則是怎麼樣比較好，那是不是既然有……我跟\n院長報告，法務部跟司法院意見也有不同的地方，我們三黨也都很願意再聽聽看他們心目中的\n比例原則到底到哪裡。","quality":0.448},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:25:02.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:25:03.232000+08:00","text":"那請法務部部長發言，司法院請準備，謝謝。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:25:28.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:25:57.253000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上我們提出來的行政院版的修正案跟司法院的會銜版是一致的，是\n參酌 113 年憲判字第 2 號的憲法判決所揭櫫的比例原則，還有撤銷假釋原因的輕重，他情節的輕\n重也是撤假的一個原因，所以建立層級化的假釋門檻。","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:25:57.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:26:21.229000+08:00","text":"當然其中我們分幾個級距，如果受刑人\n只是違反保安處分的規定，或因故意更犯罪而受未滿五年有期徒刑宣告，是執行十年就取得假\n釋的門檻；那如果假釋期間故意更犯罪受五年以上未滿十年的有期徒刑的罪，執行滿十五年可\n以報假釋；如果說十年以上有期徒刑的門檻是二十年。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:26:22.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:26:38.321000+08:00","text":"這部分我們是依照 113 年憲判字第 2 號的\n判決意旨來設定比例原則，以及根據他情節輕重原因來做分級的條文設計。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:26:40.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:26:47.193000+08:00","text":"本部也是完全尊重\n委員的審議結果，作以上報告。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:26:47.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:26:48.930000+08:00","text":"請許廳長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:26:49.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:04.720000+08:00","text":"許廳長辰舟：院長、各位委員，今天審議的是兩院會銜版的第七十八條之一，司法院之前就已經會\n銜同意，因此對於第七十八條之一，兩院並沒有不同意見，法務部跟司法院並沒有不同意見。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:05.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:27.593000+08:00","text":"至於憲判主文第一項只說明應該區別他的情節來設定不同的門檻，這個部分，兩院會銜版已經\n有做級距了，國民黨版也有做級距，如莊瑞雄委員剛剛所講，這個尺畫在哪裡，我們尊重政治\n部門的決定。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:29.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:30.271000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許廳長的補充。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:30.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:45.817000+08:00","text":"各黨團幹部，因為第七十八條之一顯然各黨團之間還有一點不太一致的看法，我們先進行第\n七十八條之二及後面的第七十九條之一，達成共識之後，我們再回過頭來處理第七十八條之一\n，好嗎？","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:46.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:50.859000+08:00","text":"因為後面還有兩條要討論，這樣速度會比較快。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:51.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:57.765000+08:00","text":"在討論第七十八條之二跟第七十九條\n協 7\n之一的時候，請各黨幹部來思考一下，大家對第七十八條之一有什麼意見。","quality":0.617},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:57.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:59.066000+08:00","text":"我們現在進入第七十八條之二，各黨團幹部，第七十八條之二就照行政院、司法院提案通過\n，好嗎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:59.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:27:59.166000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:27:59.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:28:23.026000+08:00","text":"我們現在進入第七十九條之一，民眾黨黨團有提修正動議，民眾黨黨團要不要表達一下意見\n？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:28:23.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:28:29.409000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團也請準備。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:28:29.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:28:29.789000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨表達意見。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:28:50.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:29:08.757000+08:00","text":"我們第七十九條之一的修正動議是配合第七十八條之一的修正，所以基本上如果第七\n十八條之一待會討論完成，第七十九條之一自然就是搭配，我們的修正動議是這樣。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:29:12.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:29:37.508000+08:00","text":"是，本黨團在這裡提出第七十九條之一的修正意見，主要是因為第七十七條的第三項\n不修正，既然不修正的話，那麼第七十九條之一就要把原來行政院版的「第三項」刪除。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:29:41.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:29:50.720000+08:00","text":"對，就刪掉，就是把「第三項」這幾個字刪掉就好，但是還是維持第七十九條之一的\n修正。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:29:52.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:29:57.462000+08:00","text":"好的，基本上我們都了解了台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團的想法，現在我們還是要回到第七\n十八條之一了。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:29:59.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:30:08.907000+08:00","text":"現在我們回到第七十八條之一，剛剛法務部部長跟司法院的說明已經非常清楚了，那翁曉玲\n委員跟陳總召你們有什麼看法？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:30:10.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:30:15.054000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員講得也很清楚，大家看看，再討論一會兒我們就準\n備要裁決了，好嗎？好。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:30:16.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:30:40.341000+08:00","text":"我這邊還要再強調，因為我們現在收的是……第七十八條之一，國民黨黨版是在一年\n以下有期徒刑，只要是再犯一年以下有期徒刑的話，那麼他的聲請假釋門檻是十年。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:30:41.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:31:10.234000+08:00","text":"這裡面其\n實還是有一些需要再思考的地方，因為我們知道，現在毒品相關的犯罪刑責，有一些可能都還\n是處六個月以上有期徒刑，譬如吸食毒品、引誘什麼毒品或是有轉讓等等的，或製造相關的一\n些器具，就是在毒品危害防制條例裡面，有一些犯罪行為基本上是處六個月以上、是非常輕的\n；可是現在的這個規定，基本上是不分他到底犯什麼罪，只要是一年以下有期徒刑宣告的話，\n他可以再提起假釋的門檻是十年。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T14:31:31.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:02.104000+08:00","text":"所以就這個部分來說的話，我們是不是還是要排除……再增\n加排除重大暴力犯罪，或者有違反我剛剛講的，像吸毒、毒品危害防制條例裡面，他如果被判\n處的有期徒刑是一年以下，但是因為他的罪名是吸毒、施用、轉讓等等的話，是不是應該要提\n高他的假釋門檻會比較好？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:04.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:05.487000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題，等一下法務部再回復。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:05.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:09.608000+08:00","text":"我們先請台灣民眾黨黨團，因為你們的版本跟國民黨的\n不一樣。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:09.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:17.050000+08:00","text":"主席，台灣民眾黨的版本，我用很快的速度把我們的想法與其他兩個版本的比較跟大\n家說明一下。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:17.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:33.014000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們同意行政院、司法院版本的第二項，也就是原來是無期徒刑，他假\n釋之後再犯無期徒刑，我們基本上是認為沒有假釋的可能，這跟行政院、司法院的版本是一致\n的。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:33.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:32:58.670000+08:00","text":"另外，原來是無期徒刑，經過假釋後，如果他犯的是……行政院、司法院版本是，五年以下\n協 8\n的，基本上假釋門檻是放在十年；國民黨這邊更嚴格一點，沒有一年的話，他大概就是十年；\n台灣民眾黨這邊採一個比較折衷的，基本上就是還沒有滿三年的話，我們建議的是十年。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:32:59.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:05.656000+08:00","text":"我再\n說明一下，也就是原來行政院的版本是五年，國民黨版本是一年，我們這邊建議是三年。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:06.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:13.242000+08:00","text":"第二類就是五年，原來行政院版是五年到十年，我們這邊建議是三年到七年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:14.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:25.908000+08:00","text":"另外一類是屬\n於十年以上的，民眾黨版本是七年以上，基本上假釋的門檻會變成二十年，這大概是台灣民眾\n黨的一個完整的概念，以上。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:26.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:26.969000+08:00","text":"謝謝王副總召。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:27.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:28.409000+08:00","text":"請莊瑞雄委員，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:30.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:30.210000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:30.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:51.832000+08:00","text":"我想我也提出一些實務上的問題來就教大家，就是說這是很難決定，但問\n題是你想想看，一個人 40 歲，判無期徒刑的話要關 25 年，就是 65 歲，那 65 歲以後，接下來\n要報假釋，無期徒刑……我等一下要請法務部表示一下意見，我好像沒有聽說一次就會過的，\n不可能嘛！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:51.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:53.392000+08:00","text":"我也知道到現在有的報 17 次、18 次都過不了，光是要報那麼多次……好啦！","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:33:53.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:33:55.833000+08:00","text":"假設無\n期徒刑要報假釋，最好的情況，我不曉得有沒有那種報 5 次就會過的，部長，應該不太可能嘛\n？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:12.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:13.569000+08:00","text":"要看個案，因為那個是……是嘛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:13.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:13.729000+08:00","text":"還是要有悛悔實據。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:13.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:14.729000+08:00","text":"當然，要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:14.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:15.729000+08:00","text":"要處遇的結果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:13.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:15.730000+08:00","text":"是，我的意思就是，有悛悔實據，但是幾乎……你們回去應該再查查看有沒有這樣的\n統計數字。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:15.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:34:46.420000+08:00","text":"我的意思就是，我不是要跟民粹對幹，我們是用實務上來想，就是判處無期徒刑，\n如果是一個 40 歲的要關 25 年，就 65 歲了，65 歲出來、喝個酒，後來看到莊瑞雄，他很討厭我\n、罵我，我就受不了去告了他，他被判了一年以下，你看他這樣又沒有了，就又進去了。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:34:49.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:07.985000+08:00","text":"所以\n我一直在想說，45 歲的人這個服刑到 65 歲去報請假釋，被核准 70 歲可以出來，他好不容易捱\n到 70 歲可以假釋，出來以後，駡我兩句又被抓進去關，變成要到 80 歲才又有機會報請假釋。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:07.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:15.627000+08:00","text":"這就是在講比例原則，不是我覺得出獄之後再犯的人不可惡，不是！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:17.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:29.958000+08:00","text":"對於各黨的版本，我看起來都還算……連法務部的版本我都覺得很嚴格，但是社會大眾會認\n為：你本來就是無期徒刑，被判無期徒刑的人本來就很可惡，出來以後幹嘛還犯罪！","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:30.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:41.622000+08:00","text":"可是真的\n很難講，有時候出獄後喝個酒就開始「訐譙」我們這些政治人物；如果我們不放過他，或者是\n車子相撞導致受傷，這都是過失傷害罪，判下來全部都是啊！","quality":0.578},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:42.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:47.444000+08:00","text":"我都一直覺得要不要去區分故意或者過失？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:48.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:50.184000+08:00","text":"這我不敢說，因為社會民粹，以及各個版本在這\n裡，到最後大家互相追殺，我就不喜歡。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:35:50.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:35:51.425000+08:00","text":"但是針對這一題，我為什麼開宗明義去講，我們各個\n政黨就把它當成是社會的破網要怎麼樣把它補起來就好，請大家再一併重新參考—下。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:36:09.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:36:24.412000+08:00","text":"院長，我們都有一定的歲數、有一些社會經驗了，社會安全網我們一定要去補，可是實務上\n我們也要特別去看到那個一年以下的部分，被判一年以下有太多不一樣的態樣，去算一下歲數\n協 9\n嘛！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:36:25.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:36:33.319000+08:00","text":"一個人被關以後，除非我們認為他就不要出來了，不然如果認為還要讓他再復歸社會的話\n，當初為什麼會說要有「悛悔實據」？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:36:34.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:36:42.426000+08:00","text":"就是這個人被關、關、關，關了 25 年，報請假釋那麼多\n次，你認為可以讓這個人回去了。","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:36:42.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:36:51.292000+08:00","text":"他回去以後，涉及這麼輕微的罪行，又要再重新進去了！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:36:51.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:01.019000+08:00","text":"我\n告訴你，再進去以後，規定是十年，你不要以為他過十年就可以出來，因為他是「得」報請假\n釋而已，下次再審的時候，不曉得又要 4 次還 5 次。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:01.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:05.662000+08:00","text":"以上一併提給大家參考，我對這一條不敢有定見，因為社會的反撲力量太大了。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:16.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:19.913000+08:00","text":"民進黨莊委員的意見非常務實。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:21.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:38.096000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提的修正案我再重述一次，我們的原\n則簡單，犯無期徒刑之罪，經假釋之後，再犯無期徒刑之罪，這個是絕對不容寬貸的，這是罪\n大惡極！","quality":0.77},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:38.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:41.997000+08:00","text":"這一點基本上我們是堅持的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:41.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:43.667500+08:00","text":"那個沒意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:43.667500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:45.338000+08:00","text":"這部分大家沒意見嘛！","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:45.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:49.200000+08:00","text":"已經被判無期徒刑，出來之後又犯無期徒刑之罪，這樣的人假\n釋出來對社會安全嗎？","quality":0.382},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:52.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:53.556000+08:00","text":"這樣無法交代！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:37:54.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:37:59.597000+08:00","text":"其次，我也認同比例原則。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:01.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:38:03.878000+08:00","text":"像剛剛說的，犯罪受一年徒刑宣告，就要再關十年……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:05.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:38:05.979000+08:00","text":"一年以下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:05.979000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:38:07.839000+08:00","text":"對，受一年以下徒刑宣告就要再關十年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:07.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:38:11.120000+08:00","text":"因為有這樣的版本，所以我們台灣民眾黨黨\n團才會提出修正動議。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:15.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:38:27.988000+08:00","text":"法務部的版本是五年以下，國民黨黨團的版本是一年，所以我們從這樣\n的角度建議改成三年。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:38:31.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:02.213000+08:00","text":"我們是站在比例原則的角度，並且根據社會普遍性、大多數人的看法，\n採取這樣的比例並提出修正動議，期待民進黨黨團和國民黨黨團大家一起來討論，同時請法務\n部針對我們這樣的折衷版本表示意見。","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:02.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:05.475000+08:00","text":"我們今天的目的是要取得共識嘛！","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:06.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:11.859000+08:00","text":"請法務部針對這個折\n衷版本表達意見，如果 OK，是不是就採取這個折衷版本？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:11.859000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:12.859000+08:00","text":"麻煩一下法務部鄭部長，您發言完畢之後我們就裁定了，好嗎？請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:12.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:13.180000+08:00","text":"我們完全尊重審議的結果。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:13.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:23.653000+08:00","text":"我們完全尊重，因為各版本的刑度級距不同，分別是一年\n、三年、五年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:23.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:24.654000+08:00","text":"那我身為主席，完全尊重法務部的意見。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:24.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:25.654000+08:00","text":"我跟院長報告一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:24.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:45.946000+08:00","text":"沒問題，因為第七十八條之一能達成共識是最完美的，萬一達成不了，我們就要送院會。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:45.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:56.688000+08:00","text":"在\n送完院會的這個過程中，還是請法務部跟各黨團繼續溝通，因為第七十九條之一跟第七十八條\n之一是有連動性的，所以就這兩條……我知道。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:56.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:39:59.429000+08:00","text":"許廳長，您要不要表達一下意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:39:59.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:01.849000+08:00","text":"許廳長辰舟：這部分我們也尊重委員審議的結果。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:02.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:06.150000+08:00","text":"主席也尊重司法院的建議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:06.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:07.611000+08:00","text":"請范雲委員，請。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:07.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:11.912000+08:00","text":"我是覺得法務部跟司法院都尊重我們，那麼你們那個提案原來的意思是什麼？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:14.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:20.913000+08:00","text":"這個數字\n從未滿五年、到未滿一年、未滿三年，你們都接受嗎？協 10","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:21.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:40:40.464000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個「五年」是 113 年憲判字第 2 號判決有這個建議，我們是參考那個\n意見建議的級距，這個級距就是完全照憲判的級距，當然委員如果認為憲判意旨的級距 OK，我\n們是希望委員，有沒有辦法……這是一個會銜版吧？對，是。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:40:53.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:41:26.192000+08:00","text":"我想翁委員是法律專業，但是比較重要的就是我們現在要怎麼面對社會，我想面對社\n會，今天比較大的問題可能要請院長裁示，三黨即便是有不同的意見，但確實司法院所提出的\n案子送到立法院來都已經 1 月了，那個時候在密集審查所有的法案，司法院也沒有特別來告知\n，完全沒有特別來告知。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:41:27.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:42:02.022000+08:00","text":"大法官釋憲已經兩年，到今年 3 月 14 日到期，3 月 14 日到期，法務部\n也來表示當天就要釋放第一批人，或者是他們再行看用什麼方式，希望立法院儘快審議，但是\n我們立法院是 3 月 5 日才知道這個事情，3 月 14 日以前要三讀，所以今天院長會召集協商，也\n是因為我們收到訊號以後，我們也很著急，但是我們立法院願意全力來協助。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:42:02.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:42:26.180000+08:00","text":"其實這些本來是\n應該要花很多時間大家來討論的，包括莊瑞雄幹事長有不同的看法，其實大法官的判決，我們\n在這裡把它做一個比較簡單的收斂，比較簡單的收斂是什麼？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:42:26.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:43:17.325000+08:00","text":"他說輕罪跟重罪都一樣撤銷了無\n期的假釋，輕罪跟重罪不應該是要一視同仁，類似酒駕，所以今天國民黨翁曉玲的版本已經在\n一年以下，基本上，這種酒駕輕罪的部分就已經是第一個門檻，如果再拉到五年，基本上五年\n上下其實就有很多重罪了；而且販毒或是毒品施用或是轉交等等，一般都是六個月到八個月，\n這種情況之下，無期撤假了以後，又涉及毒品，涉及毒品不是他沒有販賣，是你沒有抓到而已\n。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:43:19.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:43:23.389000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個問題，我們社會安全網到底要補多少次破網？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:43:27.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:43:29.445000+08:00","text":"我想今天比較……\n抱歉！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:43:29.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:43:32.808000+08:00","text":"因為我在發言，你們有什麼事待會再討論。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:43:32.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:44:04.146000+08:00","text":"院長，我們剛剛已經表達為什麼我們在這麼急迫的時間，院長也裁示禮拜五要處理完，所以\n我們講的重點，因為這個事情何其重要、何其重大，今天是禮拜三，到禮拜五，等於立法院面\n對這個事情只有兩天內要解決，兩年期限的事情，交到立法院要兩天來解決，這對社會安全網\n，請問司法院、法務部要怎麼交代？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:44:06.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:44:37.797000+08:00","text":"所以我想今天的重點是，大家各自的版本對人民負責，其\n實今天不是誰要說服誰，應該是大家各自的版本對人民交代，然後大家一致決議禮拜五經由院\n會處理之後，我們就給它三讀，這才是重點，我們現在不是要誰來……因為兩年的事情，我們\n要兩天之內解決。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:44:37.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:45:13.865000+08:00","text":"而且會判無期，不是殺人就是製造、販賣毒品，這種社會最嚴重之罪，我們\n還在這裡討論是一年多少、五年多少，這不是菜市場，就誠如莊瑞雄幹事長講的，這不是在菜\n市場講這些，應該要用更長的時間來討論，而不是給我們兩天時間就來做結論，我想各自政黨\n有各自政黨必須對人民所負責的，所以我們自己來討論，到時候再到院會處理，我想這才是重\n點，好不好？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:45:13.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:46:05.030000+08:00","text":"還有我要特別強調，剛剛大家講的數據是不對的，不是什麼二十五年，在 94 年以前\n無期徒刑十年就可以報假釋，94 年以後更誇張，雖然號稱二十五年，但我們從 109 年統計到 111\n年，有 657 個人無期徒刑，有 657 個人報假釋，平均執行才十七點九年，根本不是二十五年滿\n協 11\n了以後再往上報假釋，然後報了 N 年再出來，所以是十七點九年就出來，今天我們要將正確的\n數字讓人民知道，讓我們一起來面對這個問題，好不好？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-03-11T14:46:05.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:46:05.330000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:46:07.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:46:07.532000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:46:07.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:46:42.502000+08:00","text":"我想今天討論這個問題的關鍵點在於要趕快、快速的把破洞補起來，就是\n依據憲法法庭判決說這沒有依比例原則處理，所以要求我們來處理這個事情，今天朝野各政黨\n提出的版本，其實都是補破網的一種方式。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:46:45.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:47:15.716000+08:00","text":"我也很尊重法務部跟司法院的意見，他們也會覺得\n他們提出的版本只是依照憲法法庭判決內容的級距來設定必須幾年之後才能夠假釋，也就是依\n據再犯幾年罪就要幾年後才能假釋，所以對我而言，我認為儘速讓這個法案通過，讓社會沒有\n恐慌，讓這個問題趕快解決，才是立法院今天的重中之重。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-03-11T14:47:16.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:08.685000+08:00","text":"如果司法院跟法務部都沒有意見，\n就如同剛剛莊瑞雄委員講的，他也沒有定見，這也是為什麼我們會希望由主席來裁示的原因，\n因為這個就沒有什麼國民黨、民眾黨或民進黨的問題，法務部的版本只是依照憲法法庭的結果\n訂出一個級距，他們也沒有說哪一個級距一定是最好或一定最對，所以如果大家覺得要嚴格一\n點、主席裁示覺得要嚴格一點，民進黨也可以接受，因為我們的目標就是快速讓這個案子通過\n，不要出現違憲的爭議，也不要讓社會出現恐慌，這就是我們今天的目的，所以我還是覺得，\n朝野的合作，這個法案就是很好的案例，因此是不是就讓主席來作裁示？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:09.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:35.814000+08:00","text":"我試試看先作一個裁示，第七十八條之一、第七十九條之一，我們就送院會處理，在送院會\n處理期間，請法務部能夠跟各黨團用有限的時間進行溝通，到最後禮拜五院會我們一定會處理\n，也回到三個黨團總召的一個良意，就是在禮拜五之前我們完成三讀，這一點大家都已經有共\n識。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:35.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:42.599000+08:00","text":"我們大概還有兩天的時間，部長可以藉這個空檔跟三個黨團溝通，禮拜五我們就進行處理\n，好不好？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:45.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:47.903000+08:00","text":"第七十八條之一跟第七十九條之一是連動的。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:50.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:51.307000+08:00","text":"好，我們休息 5 分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:51.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:48:52.668000+08:00","text":"部長，喘口氣，休息 5 分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:48:52.668000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T14:51:14.478000+08:00","text":"休息（14 時 48 分）\n繼續開會（14 時 59 分）","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:51:14.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:51:14.498000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:14.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:59:21.368000+08:00","text":"休息完畢以後，大家顯然還沒有辦法達成一致的共識，那第七十八條之一、第七\n十九條之一就保留送院會處理。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:22.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:59:32.715000+08:00","text":"現在進入刑法施行法，有三條條文，第七條之二、第七條之三及第七條之四修正條文。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:36.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:59:44.208000+08:00","text":"第七\n條之二就照國民黨黨團的修正動議協商內容通過，各黨團有沒有意見？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:44.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:59:54.530000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好，謝謝，\n增訂第七條之三，本條保留。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:56.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T14:59:57.471000+08:00","text":"請司法院表達意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T14:59:59.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:09.954000+08:00","text":"許廳長辰舟：有關剛剛討論國民黨版中華民國刑法施行法第七條之二第一項的部分，建議在倒數第\n二行第一個字後面加一個「者」。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:14.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:20.860000+08:00","text":"就是在但書這邊，修正為「但其行為終了或犯罪結果之發生\n……修正施行後者」。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:25.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:26.404000+08:00","text":"第七條之二嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:26.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:39.142000+08:00","text":"許廳長辰舟：對，第七條之二第一項的但書，在倒數第二行，修正為「九十四年一月七日刑法修正\n施行後者」。協 12","quality":0.558},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:42.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:47.250000+08:00","text":"加一個記者的「者」，可以，我們就修正通過，謝謝許廳長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:47.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:48.851000+08:00","text":"增訂第七條之三。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:50.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:00:58.456000+08:00","text":"司法院、行政院還有國民黨黨團所提修正案，本條就保留送院會了，就和剛才刑法第七十八\n條之一一樣，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:00:59.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:01.798000+08:00","text":"好，我們現在進入增訂第七條之四。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:02.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:10.384000+08:00","text":"本條照司法院、行政院跟國民黨黨團所提的，本條不予增訂，請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見？沒有。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:10.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:10.825000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:20.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:21.199000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員請發言。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:22.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:37.913000+08:00","text":"跟院長報告，因為剛剛已經裁示了，說是這要請法務部再想想，但我也特別要提醒，\n這一次其實因為剛剛講到司法院跟法務部同調，我其實不認為你們有同調，你知不知道？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:38.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:52.108000+08:00","text":"憲判\n字第 2 號判決其實我也有去把它看得很清楚，它倒是有規定輕重的部分，對於保護管束的部分\n有列給你們參考嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:52.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:01:54.711000+08:00","text":"它講到保護管束，其實上面寫的是五年啦！","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:01:56.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:02:07.972000+08:00","text":"當然憲判是在理由書裡面講，但我很怕我們又留\n了一個尾巴，畢竟再去觸犯刑法跟違反保護管束，這個部分的輕重確實會有所不同。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:02:08.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:02:41.322000+08:00","text":"雖然憲判\n字第 2 號判決是在整個理由書裡面這樣去提到，我是一併提醒你們，否則這個案子照大家的意\n思我沒意見，但事後不要又有一些……別說是好事之徒，有人一發現就說：「你看，你們三個\n黨修出來的又跟憲法法庭的解釋不一樣了」，至少我們也要去回應人家一下，這樣會不會好一\n點我不知道，就一併提供給行政部門做一個參考，好不好？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:02:41.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:02:50.884000+08:00","text":"不然你們說行政院的看法跟司法院\n的看法是一樣的，但我從憲判理由書裡面看來，你們其實還是有不一樣的地方。以上。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:02:52.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:02:53.125000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員善意的提醒。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:02:53.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:02.067000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部還有列席的法務部、司法院所有列席的官員，我\n們現在要嘗試性地唸一下今天達到的協商結論。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:03.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:15.390000+08:00","text":"協商主題：\n行政院、司法院函請審議「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」及「中華民國刑法施行法第七\n條之二、第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案」案。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:16.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:23.633000+08:00","text":"協商結論：\n一、中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案\n(一)第六十三條之一，不予增訂。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:24.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:32.282000+08:00","text":"(二)第七十七條，不予修正，維持現行條文。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:32.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:38.250000+08:00","text":"(三)第七十八條之一及第七十九條之一，均保留，送院會處理。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:40.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:45.574000+08:00","text":"(四)第七十八條之二，照行政院、司法院提案內容通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:45.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:03:56.559000+08:00","text":"二、中華民國刑法施行法第七條之二、第七條之三及第七條之四條文修正草案\n(一)第七條之二，照協商內容通過，詳如附件。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:03:57.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:00.161000+08:00","text":"(二)第七條之三，保留，送院會處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:00.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:02.482000+08:00","text":"(三)第七條之四，不予增訂。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:04.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:09.678000+08:00","text":"協 13\n三、上開兩案於 3 月 13 日院會處理中選會同意權案之前，進行處理，並於同日完成三讀。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:10.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:11.780000+08:00","text":"陳總召，這句話你有聽到喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:12.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:13.381000+08:00","text":"你最關心了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:16.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:35.616000+08:00","text":"處理時，廣泛討論及逐條討論均不發言，逐條時\n，保留條文依各黨團版本提出先後進行處理，本二案完成三讀後，均不提出復議，完成三讀後\n，各黨團各推派 1 人發言。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:36.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:37.277000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:37.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:44.440000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，請簽字，謝謝，也謝謝法務部、司法院還有列席的\n各位官員。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:45.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:04:50.042000+08:00","text":"我們進入下面一案，今天朝野協商的第三題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:04:55.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:05:06.285000+08:00","text":"現在進入研商李貞秀立法委員身分認\n定相關事宜，本案由民進黨黨團提議。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:05:06.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:05:09.146000+08:00","text":"現在介紹今天列席的官員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:05:20.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:05:23.591000+08:00","text":"首先我們要介紹內政部劉部長，歡迎您！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:05:49.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:05:51.757000+08:00","text":"內政部還有一些相關列\n席官員，我就不一一稱呼了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:05:58.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:01.343000+08:00","text":"中選會吳代理主委，歡迎您！請坐。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:06.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:10.528000+08:00","text":"陸委會邱主委，你這麼大的\n名號，怎麼上面沒有你的名字，是我們失禮，歡迎！請坐。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:11.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:12.710000+08:00","text":"名字在後面，對不起！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:13.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:22.865000+08:00","text":"我們今天因\n為案子有一點亂，不好意思！謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:22.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:26.070000+08:00","text":"我們會場稍微拜託一下，大家請就座，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:26.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:26.410000+08:00","text":"要離開的就請，謝謝大家。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:34.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:46.484000+08:00","text":"要跟各位黨團幹部和列席官員報告一下，有關李貞秀委員選舉過程，我等一下先請相關官員\n報告完畢之後，再請提案黨團民進黨黨團表達意見，依序國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團繼續表\n達意見。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:46.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:48.325000+08:00","text":"先請內政部部長、陸委會主委、中選會分別表達意見，好嗎？請。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:56.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:06:58.570000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:06:58.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:07:00.732000+08:00","text":"三個黨團各位幹部，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:07:01.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:07:25.777000+08:00","text":"內政部主管國籍法，在這個案件裡面是根據\n國籍法第二十條的規定，第二十條的規定講得非常清楚，也就是公職人員在就職或到職前一日\n，應該出具放棄國籍的申請書，我們收到這個申請書之後，當然希望他在一年裡面就完成這個\n放棄。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:07:25.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:07:37.674000+08:00","text":"在第二十條裡面規定得非常清楚，有關民選公職，尤其是在立法委員的部分，他的解職\n機關是在立法院，這個都寫在國籍法第二十條裡面，非常清楚。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:07:39.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:21.368000+08:00","text":"相關法律我想各位委員也都非常清楚，所以我們從李貞秀女士在宣誓就職或者是報到的時候\n曾經三度去函，包括立法院秘書長，包括中選會，還有陸委會等相關機關，提供這方面的訊息\n給大家參考，到目前為止，我們也還是沒有收到李貞秀委員所提報的，有沒有放棄中華人民共\n和國國籍的任何證明書，當然這是影本，他如果要提報的話，是提報給立法院，因為立法院是\n立法委員的任職機關。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:21.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:34.100000+08:00","text":"以上我們的認定是到目前為止還沒有收到，既然還沒有收到的話，應該是他沒有辦法依照國\n籍法來擔任立法委員的資格。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:34.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:35.902000+08:00","text":"以上簡單報告。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:35.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:36.463000+08:00","text":"請陸委會邱主委，中選會請準備。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:41.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:45.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝三黨的黨團幹部、各位委員。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:45.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:08:55.608000+08:00","text":"有關於李貞秀女士任職的相關法律\n規範，第一是不符兩岸條例第二十一條登記參選的資格。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:08:56.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:09:09.437000+08:00","text":"陸配取得定居資格後，如果仍然保留\n中國大陸戶籍的話，依據兩岸條例，仍屬中國大陸人民，不符合兩岸條例第二十一條參選資格\n。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:09:10.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:09:53.088000+08:00","text":"兩岸條例第二條規定，具有中國大陸戶籍者為中國大陸人民；第九條之一規定，國人不得在\n中國大陸設立戶籍，違者，註銷在臺戶籍登記，並喪失臺灣人民身分及法律權利；第二十一條\n規定，中國大陸人民未在臺灣設有戶籍滿十年，不得登記為公職候選人，所以兩岸條例第二十\n協 14\n一條適用的前提必須是該原陸籍人士已經在臺設籍，並且不具有雙重戶籍，才有可能起算在臺\n設籍十年的期間。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:09:54.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:10:02.629000+08:00","text":"第二點，參選人登記時如果還具有中國大陸人民的身分，依法就不具有參選\n資格。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:10:03.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:10:19.918000+08:00","text":"如果參選人登記時具有中國大陸人民身分，他臺灣人民的身分就會有爭議，也違反了兩\n岸條例單一戶籍的制度，自然無法起算兩岸條例第二十一條設籍滿十年期間，不具有兩岸條例\n第二十一條的參選資格。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-03-11T15:10:23.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:19.155000+08:00","text":"所以李貞秀女士雖然在 1999 年（民國 88 年）在臺設籍，但是一直到\n2025 年 3 月他才提出繳交喪失中國大陸戶籍的證明，所以政府確認李貞秀女士從結婚來臺到\n2025 年 3 月前，都沒有向海基會或移民署提出任何註銷中國大陸戶籍的證明文件，李貞秀女士\n在 112 年年底列為不分區立委名單，當下也未向移民署提出繳付喪失中國大陸戶籍證明，身分轉\n換程序並未完成，事證比較明確，政府依法行政，所以在法律上並無任何的爭議，以上，謝謝\n。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:20.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:24.659000+08:00","text":"針對邱主委的報告，中選會請表達一下意見好嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:24.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:26.880000+08:00","text":"我們三個黨團幹部很急切地想要聽到您的\n講法。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳代理主任委員容輝","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:28.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:46.469000+08:00","text":"院長，還有三黨團的各位委員，我們中選會的立場是依照公職人員選罷法第\n七十三條第一項第三款的規定完成 6 位的遞補，現在如果有發現自始資格就有問題，我們就會\n提到我們新成立的委員會審議、討論，以上。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:50.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:56.274000+08:00","text":"好，我們請提案的民進黨團表達意見，國民黨團請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:56.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:11:58.495000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，院長，還有各位同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:11:59.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:12:09.423000+08:00","text":"李貞秀委員，對於台灣民眾黨你們這個委員，我們\n不是特別有意見，這個是一個到底法律要不要適用的問題。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:12:10.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:12:24.730000+08:00","text":"我相信擔任中華民國的國會議員，\n每一個人對於國家都必須要有忠誠的義務，你擔任這個公職，如果說有忠誠義務的衝突的話，\n這當然是有背於整個法律的規定。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:12:25.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:12:50.596000+08:00","text":"我相信剛剛內政部劉部長，還有陸委會，還有中選會都有提到，我就反過來講，中選會現在\n的說法是，你們這些都拿來了之後，到底有沒有符合，我們中選會如果人夠了之後，我們來開\n會，如果開會覺得有不符合的部分，很顯然的就是提起司法訴訟，這是中選會要走的路嘛！","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:12:52.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:03.586000+08:00","text":"但\n問題就是說，按照陸委會跟內政部的講法來講的話，其實也是我們法律的規定，國籍法的規定\n或者兩岸人民關係條例的規定，大家很清楚嘛！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:13:04.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:20.223000+08:00","text":"李貞秀委員的部分，不是我在跟你說這個人不\n好，我現在不是跟你說這個，現在是跟你說，國籍的部分很顯然的，你違背了國籍法；戶籍法\n的部分，就是你這個人到底有沒有資格參選？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:13:20.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:37.587000+08:00","text":"如果是沒有的，那是自始就沒有這樣的一個資格\n，所以我倒不認為這個是黨團的問題，我覺得這個是韓院長該傷腦筋的議題。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:13:39.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:39.709000+08:00","text":"你看嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:13:39.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:51.299000+08:00","text":"我不是\n對你是什麼人有意見，你是什麼人，我也不認識你，而是我們的法律確實就是這樣規定，內政\n部也不是要得罪台灣民眾黨，陸委會也不是要得罪台灣民眾黨，這個是我們法律明文規定，不\n論是誰來執政，是對於國家忠誠義務衝突的部分怎麼處理的問題，所以確實這條是合議啦！","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:13:51.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:13:52.680000+08:00","text":"院\n長，你就發揮一下你的智慧，其實有沒有放棄，文件拿出來就很清楚嘛！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:12.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:15.830000+08:00","text":"這張我以前也有繳過\n，這是今天我們黨團準備的，我們都要簽給立法院的，就是這一張，院長，這張大家都要簽，\n連你也要簽的啊！","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:15.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:16.211000+08:00","text":"大家都要簽的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:16.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:33.710000+08:00","text":"這個是很清楚的，如果大家都有簽，只有你們沒有，還是\n你要反過來跟別人不一樣？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:33.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:35.951000+08:00","text":"這個就是台灣民眾黨要去對外解釋喔！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:36.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:43.757000+08:00","text":"今天大家講的不是說我們要\n協 15\n剝奪誰，都不是，是誰有沒有符合這樣的資格，可不可以當國會議員？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:43.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:14:49.468000+08:00","text":"你說哪一個政黨……我\n們政黨說可以就可以，你們要留下來，你們是都沒有人可以選嗎？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:14:49.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:13.706000+08:00","text":"你們要留他下來，我也沒意\n見，我也不能用我的意見，我是站在不管誰要進到立法院來，國家都是大家的，大家照原來的\n……第一項，老百姓對你的期待，你對這個國家負有忠誠的義務，但當這個忠誠義務，人家認\n為說你怎麼有兩個國籍、你怎麼有兩個戶籍，因而產生衝突的時候，法律規範要怎麼處理？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:13.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:18.230000+08:00","text":"其\n實這個部分是清清楚楚的，以上跟大家再做個說明，謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:18.230000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:21.278000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:21.278000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:24.326000+08:00","text":"現在請國民黨黨團發言，台灣民眾黨團請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:24.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:27.374000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:27.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:46.105000+08:00","text":"首先有關於國籍爭議的部分，剛剛內政部引用的是國籍法第二十條，但是\n依照憲法增修條文第十一條的規定，自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利跟義務關係是以法律為特\n別的規定，所以適用的應該是兩岸特別條例。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:46.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:15:54.550000+08:00","text":"當然，大陸人民並不是國籍法所定義的外國人，\n所以內政部引用國籍法其實已經逾越了憲法增修條文相關的規定。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:15:55.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:16:08.038000+08:00","text":"而兩岸條例是根據憲法增修\n條文第十一條授權制定的特別法，本來特別法就是優於普通法的法律，所以關於參政權，應該\n要優先適用兩岸人民關係條例。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:16:08.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:16:26.293000+08:00","text":"當然，限制人民的參政權屬於限制人民的基本權利，必須要有\n法令的規定，而現行的兩岸人民關係條例並沒有要求陸配必須放棄國籍證明，行政機關如果自\n己擴權解釋的話，就是違反依法行政，屬於行政濫權。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:16:26.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:16:45.083000+08:00","text":"因為兩岸互不承認主權，所以中國大陸\n根本不接受陸配申請放棄國籍，陸委會邱垂正主委都已經講過了，從來沒有一個陸配能夠成功\n的完成放棄中華人民共和國的國籍，既然在現實上是不可能完成的任務，法律就不該強人所難\n。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:16:45.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:16:54.125000+08:00","text":"針對戶籍的部分，我們知道依據兩岸條例第二十一條的規定，非在臺灣地區設有戶籍滿十年\n，不得登記為公職候選人。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:16:54.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:17:16.600000+08:00","text":"但十年的起算點並沒有明定以繳交喪失原籍證明為起算點，而李貞\n秀委員其實在 1990 年就已經取得臺灣身分證跟戶籍，既然內政部當時就已經核發給他身分證及\n讓他取得戶籍，代表已經符合兩岸人民關係條例第二十一條中設有戶籍滿十年的規定。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:17:17.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:17:38.055000+08:00","text":"根據李\n貞秀委員的說法，他其實在 1999 年就已經依法獲准在臺定居、設立戶籍，同時也註銷在大陸的\n戶籍，所以去年 3 月他申請的是證明文件，並不是辦理除籍，所以他是在就職前就已經完成行\n政補件，並不會影響他存在的法律身分。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-03-11T15:17:40.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:01.750000+08:00","text":"李貞秀委員既然已經獲得中選會審核通過，也在大法\n官面前宣示完成，多年來政府也認可他公民的身分，所以參政權應該受到保護，如果民進黨認\n為法律有漏洞，應該透過修法解決，而不是在當事人依法遞補之後，才進行這樣的政治追殺。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:03.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:04.152000+08:00","text":"謝謝許宇甄委員的發言。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:04.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:04.852000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨團發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:07.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:09.283000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:09.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:28.611000+08:00","text":"首先謝謝韓國瑜院長保護我們每一位立法委員，我記得韓院長之前公開表\n示，會保障每一位立法委員的問政權利，這是我們院長的天職，在這裡代表台灣民眾黨表達感\n謝。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:29.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:43.844000+08:00","text":"我先就法的部分跟我們實際的情況來問一下各位，請問民進黨政府，陸配是外國人嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:44.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:18:53.028000+08:00","text":"如果\n陸配是外國人，如果你認定陸配是外國人，當然你就採用國籍法的規定。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:18:54.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:19:18.919000+08:00","text":"但從憲法增修條文來\n協 16\n看，我們就是無法用國籍法處理兩岸人民的問題，才會在憲法增修條文增訂兩岸人民關係條例\n，把它分為臺灣地區跟大陸地區。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:19:19.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:19:40.009000+08:00","text":"就法來講，兩岸人民關係條例是特別法，一定優於普通法，\n就是為了要適用於兩岸人民的往來、交流，所以才制定了兩岸人民關係條例。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:19:41.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:08.436000+08:00","text":"如果今天依內政\n部也好，陸委會也好，所論述的要依據國籍法來處理，我就在這裡直接請問陸委會，你有存在\n的必要嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:20:08.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:09.396000+08:00","text":"陸委會為什麼存在？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:20:10.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:25.851000+08:00","text":"今天陸委會的存在是不是就可以來反證大陸地區跟臺灣地區的\n兩岸人民是沒辦法用國籍法來處理的？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:20:26.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:49.449000+08:00","text":"舉一個簡單的例子，臺灣人民到大陸去，我們拿的是台\n胞證，大陸地區人民來到臺灣拿的是入台證，這是我們國籍法的認定嗎？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:20:49.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:50.110000+08:00","text":"還是經由兩岸人民關\n係條例來執行的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:20:50.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:20:56.855000+08:00","text":"我在這邊說明李貞秀的問題，李貞秀現在當然是合法合規的立法委員，但是她也代表廣大的\n陸配這樣的身分。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:21:19.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:22:06.864000+08:00","text":"關於她是否適用國籍法的問題，我在這邊看到內政部所提，他應該要適用國\n籍法第二十條第一項及第四項所規定的中華民國國民取得外國國籍者及中華民國國民兼具外國\n國籍者，這一個國籍法的立法就是由立法院來認定，認定後的處理絕對不是內政部或內政部的\n下轄機關可以恣意扭曲解釋的，因為法律是由立法院所制定的。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:22:08.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:22:35.331000+08:00","text":"按立法原意，李貞秀不是中華\n民國國民取得外國國籍者不得擔任中華民國公職的適用對象；我再講一次，李貞秀不是中華民\n國國民取得外國國籍者，然後不得擔任中華民國公職的適用對象。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:22:38.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:22:55.743000+08:00","text":"中華民國國民取得外國國籍\n者是指本為中華民國的國民，後來去辦理而取得外國國籍，也就是說，本來就是中華民國的國\n民，後來又去辦理而取得外國的國籍。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:22:56.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:23:26.190000+08:00","text":"陸配原來就不是我們中華民國的國民，兩岸條例制定的\n時候是界定為中華民國人民，他需向政府申請許可來臺定居，於設立戶籍的同時，領取了中華\n民國的國民身分證，從而才成為具有中華民國國籍的國民。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:23:29.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:24:21.735000+08:00","text":"兩岸人民在對岸定居，註銷了原設\n戶籍的同時，因須被收繳或註銷國民身分證和護照而喪失國籍，這樣兩岸人民才會有單一的身\n分或單一戶籍，在這樣的情況之下，在兩岸關係的法制用語叫做轉換身分，根本就不同於國籍\n法中的歸化，所以申請應該由內政部依法訂定條件的特許而喪失國籍，我在這裡講，李貞秀他\n本身原來就不是中華民國的國民去取得外國國籍，所以他不適用。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:24:24.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:24:40.216000+08:00","text":"就這個過程而言，李貞秀絕\n對適用兩岸人民關係條例所訂定的，大陸地區及臺灣地區人民所適用的條文，這一點我一定要\n在這裡先說明清楚。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:24:42.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:25:05.199000+08:00","text":"我在這邊也要再表達，兩岸人民關係條例在蔡英文總統執政的時候統統沒有問題，也沒有這\n個爭議；來到現在賴清德總統執政的時候，陸配的參政權變成了一個爭議。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:25:05.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:25:28.051000+08:00","text":"這樣一套法律會因\n為不同的執政者、執政黨而有不同的解釋及說明，我想這應該是政治的操作，而不是就法律的\n認定。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:25:29.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:25:40.297000+08:00","text":"我也來請教陸委會，我們現在有陸配成功地放棄中國的國籍嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:25:40.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:25:43.219000+08:00","text":"有這樣的案例嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:25:43.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:26:34.492000+08:00","text":"我也來請\n教海基會、也請教內政部，李貞秀委員適時地到大陸放棄了他的戶籍，也取得了證明，這個證\n明也經過了我們海基會對文件的認定，這樣的驗證結果顯示，確實他也註銷了戶籍，但是在這\n樣的過程中，內政部、陸委會還是給出不同的解釋，我想請教，海基會的驗證是不具備效力的\n嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:26:35.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:26:48.118000+08:00","text":"海基會不是受我們內政部的授權委託，對兩岸人民關係的文件做驗證嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:26:48.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:26:52.880000+08:00","text":"經過海基會驗證\n的文件，內政部不予承認嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:26:54.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:27:02.070000+08:00","text":"所以從種種的過程來看，我們還是認定這是政治操作。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:27:03.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:27:58.971000+08:00","text":"協 17\n李貞秀委員登記參選，經過中選會的資格審查，成為合格的候選人，經過全體國民的投票，\n今天正式經過中選會通知，頒發了當選證書，成為中華民國立法院的立法委員，也依照規定在\n大法官面前宣誓就職、效忠中華民國，經過這樣的宣誓，他已經完成所有的法定程序，他就是\n一個合格、合法的立法委員。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:27:59.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:02.172000+08:00","text":"本黨團在此做以上的表示。謝謝。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:04.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:08.956000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員發言之後，請中選會、內政部準備答復一下，好嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:11.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:14.178000+08:00","text":"請莊瑞雄委員二次發言，范雲委員請準備。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:15.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:16.339000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:16.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:21.762000+08:00","text":"其實我很尊重清龍兄的發言，但是有幾個地方我也不得不指出來。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:24.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:45.587000+08:00","text":"我從第\n8 屆、第 9 屆、第 10 屆到第 11 屆擔任立法委員，我也都經過大法官的宣誓，現在如果發現我有\n像李貞秀同樣狀況的話，我也自始不符合這個資格，倒也不是說因為經過大法官宣誓了以後，\n這個資格就不可以被任何人剝奪。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:45.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:28:55.310000+08:00","text":"我們現行法律的規定是，只要有這些狀況，現在怎麼來處理\n的問題，這是第一個。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:28:55.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:29:26.007000+08:00","text":"第二個，其實剛剛你提到的都是在講國籍法第一項，國籍法第一項沒有錯，它是規定「中華\n民國國民取得外國國籍者」，你的意思就是假設我是中華民國國民，我再去取得中國的國籍，\n你這樣會誤導，本案在講的是第四項，是中華民國國民本身兼具外國國籍者，這個要看清楚，\n不然我很怕你們會說得……沒關係，我們來溝通一下。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:29:28.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:29:35.177000+08:00","text":"對於法律，大家會有不同的看法，尤其\n你說如果要這樣，幹嘛要有陸委會的存在？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:29:35.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:30:20.663000+08:00","text":"全世界很多的……陸委會的存在就不用我多費口舌\n，過去國民黨執政的時候就是這樣了，這是一個比較特殊的安排，你們要認為把它當成中華人\n民共和國，你們是不承認的，它不是一個國家，我也沒有意見，你在任何一個國家取得他的國\n籍以後，也不擔保你馬上就有參政權，每一個國家自己都可以做一個安排，比方說你取得國籍\n，是中華民國的國民了，我也可以跟你講，如果立法院同意的話，我們也可以說，你 5 年後再\n來、10 年後你可以去參選什麼等等，那都可以，每一個國家都可以做這樣一個安排，所以我們\n不要顛倒過來講。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:30:20.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:30:38.995000+08:00","text":"我比較想知道的是，你說他有去申請放棄他的中國戶籍，那部分我沒有意見，因為那個有經\n過海基會認證，可是要注意的是，我們今天在講的是，關於參選資格的十點，他到底有沒有具\n備？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:30:40.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:30:40.756000+08:00","text":"如果有具備，那民進黨在跟你說什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:30:40.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:30:40.957000+08:00","text":"我們在跟你說什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:30:40.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:30:41.057000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:30:41.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:31:30.313000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是以事實\n來做一個澄清，就是在這個時間點，在你要登記為候選人的時候，那個時候如果你在中國那邊\n還有戶籍，那就違反了，那個是各個政黨之間，當要把他當成候選人的時候，你們自己並沒有\n去弄清楚，並不是說你們台灣民眾黨錯得很離譜，包括什麼人可以做、什麼人不可以做，現在\n不是講個別國會議員的好跟壞，我們現在不是談這些，而是說他自始有沒有取得這樣一個資格\n，如果沒有了，則你進來了以後，就像我剛剛講的，就這樣偷偷摸摸進來，當了 4 屆立法委員\n，沒有一個人看出來我有另外一個國家的國籍，在被發現了以後，我也是被解職啊！","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:31:31.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:31:31.862000+08:00","text":"也是這樣\n子啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:31:33.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:31:36.689000+08:00","text":"我並不能說，大法官都派來了四次，四次我都站在那裡，讓他見證我的宣誓，我就是中\n華民國的立法委員，倒不是這樣子的，以上給大家做一個參考。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:31:48.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:32:02.065000+08:00","text":"我這邊也想補充跟澄清的是，剛剛有人提到蔡英文執政或者是賴總統執政，我要講的是\n協 18\n，這個跟誰執政沒有關係，也跟歧視哪一個群體無關。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:32:02.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:32:10.148000+08:00","text":"因為很明確的是，這是參政權，不是人\n權，參政權是一種特別的權利，每個國家都有這樣的規定。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:32:12.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:32:20.072000+08:00","text":"剛剛還有人提到，就已經宣誓了，好像已經怎麼樣了，中選會也已經審查過了，是不是一切\n都是擔保？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:32:20.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:32:36.224000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，今天考上大學，拿到註冊通知，甚至拿到學生證，後來如果發現畢業\n證書是偽造的或者資格不符，學校當然有權利撤銷，學生證當然就自然失效或者是被要求繳回\n。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:32:36.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:32:57.145000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的事情是，過去李慶安也因為被發現具美國籍、具雙重國籍，時間是 2009 年 1 月\n，那時候是國民黨執政，所以這沒有歧視美國人的問題，當然現在也沒有歧視中國人或者是來\n自對岸的陸配，也跟誰執政沒有關係，我們是在守護法律。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:32:58.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:33:07.752000+08:00","text":"剛剛你們還有提到，這個不是外國籍，而之前我們都有提到，兩岸互不隸屬，所以中國不算\n外國國籍。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:33:08.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:33:27.583000+08:00","text":"我要提醒大家的部分是，其實行政院在 112 年就已經函釋了，那個時候也沒有發生這\n個案子，就是當處理到國籍的時候，除了中華民國國籍以外，其他都是外國國籍，這是很明確\n的，因為像我們在處理院士資格的時候，也都有相關的討論。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:33:27.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:33:29.103000+08:00","text":"為什麼這件事情很重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:33:29.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:33:34.986000+08:00","text":"因為國\n籍法是一個普通法，裡面很明確講到公職的單一國家效忠。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:33:35.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:33:42.649000+08:00","text":"我要提醒大家，這不是臺灣獨有的\n，民主國家都有，比如說我最近在做的國會外交──澳洲，也有這樣的規定。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:33:44.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:34:13.666000+08:00","text":"還要再提醒大家\n，不只是這種不是明確敵國的澳洲，如果是有明確敵國的，其實規定是更嚴格的，大家可以去\n看看芬蘭、愛沙尼亞，這種有明確敵國、旁邊有俄羅斯的，規定更為嚴格，因為這涉及國家安\n全，這其實也是保護相關人員的人身安全，因為如果是雙重效忠，比如說對岸最近要通過、要\n立一個法，這已經不只是制裁支持臺獨的，連不積極統一的都有可能遭到懲戒。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:34:16.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:34:25.409000+08:00","text":"所以我最後回過頭來要講的是，之前我一直在呼籲，其實民眾黨自己就可以解決這個問題，\n因為這是不分區，可是民眾黨沒有回應。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:34:25.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:34:35.556000+08:00","text":"我覺得立法院應該要自己處理，所以才會在我們上一\n屆三長的公文中，請韓院長秉公調查。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:34:37.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:35:04.859000+08:00","text":"若依照我們的法律，事實上，國籍法第二十條就有明定\n，除了剛剛莊瑞雄所講的，最後的文字是「中華民國國民兼具外國國籍者……應於就（到）職\n前辦理放棄外國國籍」，各位可以看一下，在前面還明定如果有這種雙重國籍的狀態，立法委\n員由立法院解除其公職，所以立法院是有這個應解除的責任。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:35:05.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:35:46.165000+08:00","text":"我想請問秘書長，剛剛我們莊瑞\n雄幹事長已經告訴大家，在宣誓的時候有這張表格，我們每個人都提過，上面明確問你國籍法\n，然後講得很明確，是要自己親簽才宣誓的，如果李貞秀委員就明確的說謊，而且我發現不只\n這張單子，連我們的人事資料也有，我有找出我自己的資料，這上面也有問有沒有外國國籍，\n有明確要求勾選，所以他如果在這裡就說謊，那就不是我們之前聽到的中選會申報書說謊、放\n棄戶籍說謊，那秘書長可以公布啊！","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:35:47.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:35:52.248000+08:00","text":"我想請問秘書長，我們今天是不是能夠看看他是不是有明\n確說謊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:35:52.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:27.698000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得這個資料很重要，請不要跟我說個資的問題，我提醒大家，個資法有一個\n條文的但書規定，在涉及公共利益的時候，就是不受個資法的保護個人資料利用的限制，那這\n是公職的擔任，有沒有違反國籍法裡面相關的規定，那也違反了兩岸人民關係條例，這個陸委\n會已經講過很多次，我們就不爭論了，我自己是覺得立法院不是法外之地，韓院長就是……這\n是一個超越藍綠的，我剛剛以李慶安為例，那是在馬英九 2009 年 1 月的時候處理的，這個部分\n全國民眾都在看我們，如果民眾黨基於很多原因而不方便自己處理的話，那秘書長可不可以回\n協 19\n復我，就是我們可不可以拿到這個資料？","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.178000+08:00","text":"人事處會回復，你放心！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.438000+08:00","text":"你先發言，沒問題，我們等一下會處理。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.879000+08:00","text":"今天不能夠找出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:28.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:29.059000+08:00","text":"因為只有 113 份而已啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:51.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:36:56.091000+08:00","text":"我有權要求，因為那個公文除了今天協商之外，裡面有請韓院長調查。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:36:56.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:01.156000+08:00","text":"范委員，你放心，等你發言完，我們會做我們應該的處理。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:01.156000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:02.156000+08:00","text":"好，那我就先提到這裡。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:01.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:08.361000+08:00","text":"在翁曉玲委員發言之前，我們請人事處黃處長先唸一下，我們人事處黃處長把李貞秀委員的\n資料也調出來了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃處長瑞月","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:09.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:19.170000+08:00","text":"我們在李貞秀委員就任前就有請他填具回復書，那當事人、委員是圈選他只有中華民\n國國籍，不具有外國國籍。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:20.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:25.275000+08:00","text":"他這就是明確說謊了，他有 3 份資料說謊，所以我們立法院應該可以自己處理。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:30.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:44.471000+08:00","text":"每次跟民進黨只要是討論到有關於國籍問題的時候，我就覺得根本就是雞同鴨講，看\n看我們中華民國憲法怎麼規定，看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面怎麼規定，什麼叫做「國家統一前\n」？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:44.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:46.452000+08:00","text":"你的「國家」到底指的是什麼國家？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:37:47.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:37:59.698000+08:00","text":"我覺得劉世芳部長常常就是企圖去曲解國籍法、去曲\n解中華民國憲法來搞兩國論，我不客氣就是這麼說，你們可以修憲啊！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:00.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:03.059000+08:00","text":"你們可以把「國家統一\n前」這幾個字修掉啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:03.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:04.459000+08:00","text":"你們有提案嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:04.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:05.120000+08:00","text":"為什麼不敢提案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:06.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:19.463000+08:00","text":"按照我們現在中華民國憲法裡面所談\n的，就是一國兩區，我們的主權是涵蓋到大陸地區，除了自由地區之外，就是大陸地區，我們\n的治權現在是在臺、澎、金、馬，在憲法上面我們講的是自由地區，這會涉及到什麼國籍法？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:28.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:33.860000+08:00","text":"你講國籍法的話，你要承認中華人民共和國是外國，你們有這樣承認嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:33.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:35.481000+08:00","text":"你們有這樣宣示嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:35.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:36.501000+08:00","text":"你們現在的做法是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:36.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:36.861000+08:00","text":"你們跟他們之間是什麼樣的關係？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:36.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:38.742000+08:00","text":"所以我就說不要在那邊一直曲解\n然後誤導國人，在我們中華民國憲法裡面就講得清清楚楚，在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也是一樣\n，它第一句是怎麼說的？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:55.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:38:56.260000+08:00","text":"什麼是你的國家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:38:57.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:04.363000+08:00","text":"虧你還是中華民國內政部的部長，你有仔細把這個\n條文讀好嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:04.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:06.904000+08:00","text":"你了解這裡面文字的意涵嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:07.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:33.365000+08:00","text":"我覺得更可笑的是，今天我們要去判斷一個人是否\n忠誠，竟然是以他有沒有設戶籍來判斷，當李貞秀委員取得中華民國身分證的時候，就代表他\n已經放棄了那邊的戶籍，就已經放棄了在大陸地區的戶籍，因為這是兩岸有默契，當取得了臺\n灣的戶籍，他就自然放棄大陸那邊的戶籍。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:34.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:40.710000+08:00","text":"同樣的，我們臺灣的同胞如果在大陸取得了戶籍，\n我們這裡也是不承認啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:41.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:42.432000+08:00","text":"在這邊可能就是除籍了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:43.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:50.058000+08:00","text":"所以這是很清楚的事情，他什麼時候取得了\n身分證，就什麼時候具有所謂的公民權，就具有參政權，你有撤銷他的身分證嗎？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:54.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:39:54.659000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:39:55.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:40:21.705000+08:00","text":"他\n經過選舉當選，中選會也頒發給他當選公告，現在立法院沒有不承認他作為一個立法委員的身\n分，不管是從國籍法或兩岸人民關係條例來講，你們今天的說法都是錯誤的，你就是故意要搞\n族群對立、族群撕裂，這樣有意義嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-03-11T15:40:21.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:40:24.809000+08:00","text":"所以我認為其實這個案子沒有必要再繼續討論。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:40:25.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:40:30.136000+08:00","text":"謝謝，因為時間的關係，現在是 40 分，行政部門劉部長要補充。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:40:31.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:40:48.798000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長給我補充的機會，內政部是國籍法的主管機關，當然國籍法是在立法院修正\n協 20\n通過的，我們都知道，我們在主張各種不同主張的時候，絕對不會做擴張式的解釋。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:40:48.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:41:22.856000+08:00","text":"臺灣的陸\n配和臺灣的陸配有沒有參政權，或者是他有沒有具備可以擔任中華民國立法院委員的資格是不\n一樣的，今天我們當然是以李貞秀委員是不是具有立法委員的資格來討論，針對有一些委員所\n提的部分，我有四點解釋，越快越好，第一個，按照憲法第三條規定，具有中華民國國籍者為\n中華民國國民，剛剛也有委員提到。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:41:23.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:41:45.027000+08:00","text":"因為憲法增修條文第十一條有講到兩岸人民關係條例，兩\n岸人民關係條例是在規範兩岸人民的往來，而且如果有衍生法律事件的特別立法，但是兩岸條\n例第二條僅以設戶籍地的定義來定義臺灣人民和中國大陸人民。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:41:46.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:42:23.835000+08:00","text":"從兩岸條例 81 年 9 月 18 日施行以來，有一些機關在解釋的時候，不管是在認定中國大陸人\n民或是中華民國國民，都有一些不同的權利義務上的解釋，我們都知道從 81 年到現在已經有很\n多的變遷，包括臺灣舉行過相當多的選舉，也有 7 次的憲法變遷，所以我們應該知道涉及臺灣\n的國民資格認定是屬於重大的權利義務事項，要用法律來明確規範，不可以用行政命令。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:42:24.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:42:56.797000+08:00","text":"按照\n中央法規標準法第五條第二款規定，關於人民的權利義務事項應該用法律定之，這個大家都沒\n有疑義，因此，有關兩岸人民關係條例沒有規範的部分，也就是有關國籍之取得或國民身分之\n認定，因為兩岸條例並沒有規範，應該適用我國其他有關法律論斷，不能用函釋代之，這是我\n剛剛解釋的部分。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:42:57.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:43:31.502000+08:00","text":"再來，民國 89 年國籍法修法已經將定義國籍的用詞由「中國人」修正為「中華民國國民」，\n依照我國現有的相關法律規定，舉凡應考試、服公職、參政、納稅、服兵役、受國民教育、加\n入全民健保等等，中國大陸人民不具中華民國國籍，非屬中華民國國民，自不享有或負擔中華\n民國國民的權利義務。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-03-11T15:43:31.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:01.381000+08:00","text":"這些部分都是行政院秘書長函在 112 年的時候，根據兩岸人民關係條例、\n中央法規標準法及國籍法所做的解釋，同時也提到兩岸條例從 81 年公布施行迄今已經超過 30\n年，兩岸互不隸屬是兩岸現況和既存事實，中國大陸人民與中華民國國民也是明顯有別，以上\n。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:05.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:08.732000+08:00","text":"請莊委員再次發言，陳委員麻煩簡短，好嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:08.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:09.253000+08:00","text":"我要做宣告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:09.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:10.734000+08:00","text":"請莊委員。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:10.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:11.495000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我也再簡短。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:12.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:30.615000+08:00","text":"其實這個案子倒也不是做出認定以後，任何一個政黨會損失\n一席，不會，我們現在是在做資格論證，假設李委員被認定為不具備資格，這一席還是台灣民\n眾黨的，這是第一個要先聲明。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:31.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:46.890000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛國民黨的朋友提到了，中華人民共和國和我們中\n華民國同屬一國是兩區，我尊重，中國和中華民國會是一國，我也不認為在國民黨裡面是一個\n共識，所以我尊重。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:47.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:44:58.294000+08:00","text":"但是我們臺灣、中華民國並不會因為你取得中華民國的戶籍，自然的另外\n一個國家的戶籍就會喪失，不會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:44:58.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:45:10.879000+08:00","text":"不然，兩岸人民關係條例第九條第一項根本就不需要再次規\n定禁止雙重戶籍，跟你說六個月內應該繳交除籍證明，不會啦！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:45:11.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:45:20.813000+08:00","text":"不會因為你在臺灣已經有一個\n戶籍，所以在其他國家的戶籍就自動喪失，不然立法院訂定兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一要幹\n什麼？以上。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:45:23.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:45:38.010000+08:00","text":"我簡短補充，我們都是依法論法，內政部依的法就是國籍法，李貞秀委員就是不適用\n國籍法，這是很簡單的一個答案。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:45:39.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:46:04.073000+08:00","text":"李貞秀委員應該要適用兩岸人民關係條例，也就是陸委會的\n協 21\n兩岸人民關係條例，這牽涉到戶籍的問題，李貞秀委員也到大陸去辦理戶籍註銷，也經過我們\n海基會驗證，這個我剛剛已經說明了。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:46:05.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:46:41.106000+08:00","text":"李貞秀委員現在就是我們中華民國的國民，他的身分證\n也沒有被內政部註銷，他的戶籍也沒有被內政部註銷，他就是唯一具有中華民國國民、領有中\n華民國國民身分證，唯一設籍在中華民國臺灣在這邊生活 30 年，如何放棄中華人民共和國的國\n籍，這邊我也請教內政部能不能指導一下？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:46:42.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:46:55.995000+08:00","text":"我們的孫立方將軍，1968 年出生在中國大陸，1982\n年來臺灣，現在是在國防部任職，請問他有沒有放棄中華人民共和國的國籍？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:46:56.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:47:06.543000+08:00","text":"如果有，他怎麼\n放棄，能不能指導我們、告訴我們如何放棄中華人民共和國的國籍？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:47:07.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:47:13.086000+08:00","text":"這不只是李貞秀委員，也\n包括所有在臺灣居住的陸配同胞。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:47:14.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:48:00.773000+08:00","text":"民進黨引以為傲的就是人權立國，其實陸配也是生活在臺灣，一視同仁，我們沒有任何差別\n待遇，但是今天他們的參政權在兩岸人民關係條例也有明確的訂定，大家就依法論法、依法執\n行，他已經完成了放棄戶籍的驗證，在這樣的過程當中，我希望如此依法取得中華民國立法委\n員資格的立法委員，我們不應該在這裡再對他的資格有任何質疑。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:48:03.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:48:08.697000+08:00","text":"其實我不想再講了，可是因為陳委員講的這個論述是不對的，你知道嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-03-11T15:48:08.697000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:48:11.438000+08:00","text":"哪裡不對！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:48:11.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:48:35.793000+08:00","text":"兩岸人民關係條例不是特別規定，你去看兩岸人民關係條例第一條的最後一段說本法\n所沒有規定的，依其他相關法律的規定，所以兩岸人民關係是一個補充規定來照顧陸配，誰嫁\n到臺灣、取得中華民國的國籍，當然就是中華民國的國民，我們要照顧他，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:48:35.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:48:50.462000+08:00","text":"可是參\n政權的規定，任何一個國家都會做一定的規範，你今天入籍美國，你今天入籍英國或入籍到其\n他國家，也不是說你入籍以後，馬上就取得參政權，也會有時間上的安排。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:48:51.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:13.159000+08:00","text":"我們今天討論的就是到底李委員有沒有符合整個國籍法的規定，或者說整個戶籍法的規定，\n我們是在討論有跟沒有的問題，自始取得以後，如果沒有違背的話，還是會溯及，他這個身分\n還是會被取消，以上我再次說明。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:13.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:17.383000+08:00","text":"我倒不是在講他這個人好跟壞，我就不認識他嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:17.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:23.329000+08:00","text":"我們是在\n講這樣的候選人到底是不是符合我們現行法律的規範？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:25.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:28.934000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨在推薦他擔任不分區委員的\n時候，資格到底有沒有符合？","quality":0.393},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:31.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:33.078000+08:00","text":"怎麼會談到什麼民主進步黨主張臺灣、中華民國人權立國，是啊\n！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:33.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:34.740000+08:00","text":"各個政黨都是人權立國，並不是在他取得以後，打壓台灣民眾黨，讓你們少了一席，沒有！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:34.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:49:59.740000+08:00","text":"我們在講有沒有取得參政權的問題，沒有任何打壓，就算今天假設李委員不具備立法委員的資\n格，也沒有人會跟你說要取消他的國籍、這個不是臺灣人的媳婦，沒有人會做這樣的主張。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-03-11T15:49:59.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:50:02.800000+08:00","text":"陳\n委員，火氣不用那麼大，討論這個案件的時候，倒是我們純粹就法論法，我們就把法律拿出來\n講，看我們有哪一點地方講得不對，你們也可以提出我們講的是不對的，沒有關係，好不好？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:50:16.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:50:20.056000+08:00","text":"因為時間，大家都討論了，謝謝各黨團幹部，也謝謝今天列席的官員。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:50:20.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:50:50.830000+08:00","text":"我想我們也充分討論\n了，但是沒有辦法達成共識，容許我作兩點宣告：一、本次協商，黨團既然沒有辦法達成共識\n，又有事實及法律有待釐清之處，在相關事實查明之前，以及司法最終判決之前，有鑑於李貞\n秀委員既已完成就職宣示，其立法委員身分及職權行使應該予以尊重。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:50:51.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-11T15:50:51.671000+08:00","text":"現在散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-11T15:50:52.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-11T15:50:53.599571+08:00","text":"散會（15 時 50 分）\n協 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