{"error":false,"id":["17272"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17272,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17272","日期":"2026-03-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-03-16T08:35:31+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-16T12:55:00+08:00","影片長度":"04:19:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2ddc5f31f4729d12f57db068076667a51b157d0edf07c12ea66fdf5fbe0bc4a7d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「借鏡近期美國與伊朗衝突，檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能、低成本攔截手段及無人機反制能量」，並備質詢。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:35:31 - 12:55:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1484.20409375,"end":1487.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1490.0259687500002,"end":1495.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1495.2740937500002,"end":1495.4090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1495.4090937500002,"end":1495.4259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1495.4259687500003,"end":1495.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1495.57784375,"end":1495.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1496.3372187500001,"end":1501.7203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1502.4290937500002,"end":1504.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1505.3822187500002,"end":1508.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1509.0609687500003,"end":1511.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1511.76096875,"end":1513.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1513.7690937500001,"end":1514.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1515.4565937500001,"end":1520.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1520.77221875,"end":1523.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1524.0459687500002,"end":1528.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1528.8215937500001,"end":1529.1422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1529.36159375,"end":1533.0572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1533.56346875,"end":1535.3015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1536.1284687500001,"end":1537.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1537.47846875,"end":1540.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1541.14034375,"end":1542.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1542.3722187500002,"end":1546.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1546.5909687500002,"end":1551.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1551.6534687500002,"end":1554.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1554.2015937500003,"end":1560.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1563.21284375,"end":1569.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1570.5872187500001,"end":1572.4265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1572.6797187500001,"end":1575.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1575.48096875,"end":1581.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1582.0115937500002,"end":1583.3109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1583.4290937500002,"end":1585.0997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1585.16721875,"end":1590.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1596.0347187500001,"end":1597.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1597.9415937500003,"end":1603.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1605.14721875,"end":1606.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1608.3534687500003,"end":1612.6565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1613.4834687500002,"end":1621.2797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1623.6084687500002,"end":1626.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1626.81471875,"end":1627.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1630.74659375,"end":1633.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1634.6109687500002,"end":1638.3909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1644.0103437500002,"end":1646.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1649.7478437500001,"end":1650.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1650.9628437500003,"end":1651.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1653.24096875,"end":1656.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1654.7090937500002,"end":1655.1815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1656.9703437500002,"end":1658.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1663.9565937500001,"end":1664.9690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1664.9690937500002,"end":1667.2640937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1667.2640937500003,"end":1667.5003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1675.75221875,"end":1676.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1695.3272187500002,"end":1702.5497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1705.1484687500001,"end":1708.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1710.5653437500002,"end":1712.3709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1713.83909375,"end":1716.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1717.34909375,"end":1719.8297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1721.5340937500002,"end":1723.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1725.24659375,"end":1727.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1728.5878437500003,"end":1729.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1730.3597187500002,"end":1732.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1733.7515937500002,"end":1736.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1737.8015937500002,"end":1740.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1741.7334687500002,"end":1745.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1746.3740937500002,"end":1749.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1750.3059687500001,"end":1753.6978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1754.8115937500002,"end":1758.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1759.3003437500001,"end":1762.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1763.7047187500002,"end":1767.4003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1768.4634687500002,"end":1771.5853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1773.3065937500003,"end":1778.3690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1779.5840937500002,"end":1783.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1784.6128437500001,"end":1787.4478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1788.5447187500001,"end":1791.0253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1792.2572187500002,"end":1794.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1795.69971875,"end":1798.4672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1799.4628437500003,"end":1801.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1803.3103437500001,"end":1807.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1809.3009687500003,"end":1812.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1813.82346875,"end":1816.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1818.0928437500002,"end":1821.2147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1822.2272187500002,"end":1824.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1825.9565937500001,"end":1829.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1835.76096875,"end":1888.7147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1888.79909375,"end":1890.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1890.18284375,"end":1895.3128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1895.53221875,"end":1904.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1905.2184687500003,"end":1912.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1927.7803437500002,"end":1929.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1930.41284375,"end":1934.1928437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1934.8678437500002,"end":1941.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1942.1072187500001,"end":1946.5284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1947.01784375,"end":1949.8865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1950.6122187500002,"end":1952.8228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1953.2109687500001,"end":1954.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1954.45971875,"end":1955.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1955.87721875,"end":1956.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1957.3453437500002,"end":1958.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1958.6953437500001,"end":1960.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1960.8215937500001,"end":1963.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1964.1797187500001,"end":1969.1578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1969.7315937500002,"end":1971.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1971.6722187500002,"end":1973.2247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1973.7815937500002,"end":1976.1947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1976.5997187500002,"end":1977.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1978.23659375,"end":1980.2447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1980.3797187500002,"end":1982.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1982.9784687500003,"end":1986.5897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1986.9609687500001,"end":1991.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1991.2134687500002,"end":2005.9790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2014.9565937500001,"end":2017.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2018.1797187500001,"end":2021.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2022.3309687500002,"end":2025.3009687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2025.7397187500003,"end":2029.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2030.54909375,"end":2031.3253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2031.8822187500002,"end":2034.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2034.34596875,"end":2040.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2041.4165937500002,"end":2043.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2043.89721875,"end":2045.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2045.5678437500003,"end":2048.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2048.8415937500004,"end":2049.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2050.0565937500005,"end":2052.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2052.7059687500005,"end":2057.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2057.73471875,"end":2060.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2061.0253437500005,"end":2067.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2068.3659687500003,"end":2071.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2071.3865937500004,"end":2075.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2076.53346875,"end":2080.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2081.17409375,"end":2084.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2085.0047187500004,"end":2087.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2087.68784375,"end":2091.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2091.97409375,"end":2094.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2095.3828437500006,"end":2098.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2099.24721875,"end":2102.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2103.24659375,"end":2104.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2104.93409375,"end":2110.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2110.9753437500003,"end":2115.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2116.93221875,"end":2120.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2120.59409375,"end":2123.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2123.80034375,"end":2124.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2125.25159375,"end":2127.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2127.7322187500004,"end":2129.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2129.7909687500005,"end":2133.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2134.0772187500006,"end":2135.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2135.4609687500006,"end":2137.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2137.6715937500003,"end":2142.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2143.44284375,"end":2145.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2145.7715937500006,"end":2150.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2151.2390937500004,"end":2153.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2153.9053437500006,"end":2156.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2157.4490937500004,"end":2161.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2162.3428437500006,"end":2167.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2168.26596875,"end":2168.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2169.04221875,"end":2174.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2175.01596875,"end":2178.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2178.9647187500004,"end":2180.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2181.47909375,"end":2182.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2183.3522187500002,"end":2188.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2188.7859687500004,"end":2190.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2191.0134687500004,"end":2191.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2192.2284687500005,"end":2193.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2194.4559687500005,"end":2197.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2197.6622187500006,"end":2198.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2199.23159375,"end":2202.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2202.87659375,"end":2205.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2205.94784375,"end":2208.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2208.7997187500005,"end":2211.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2211.65159375,"end":2214.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2215.1953437500006,"end":2219.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2219.97096875,"end":2222.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2222.75534375,"end":2225.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2225.75909375,"end":2230.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2231.00721875,"end":2233.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2233.8084687500004,"end":2235.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2235.9853437500005,"end":2239.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2240.22096875,"end":2242.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2242.3809687500006,"end":2244.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2244.0684687500006,"end":2246.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2246.26221875,"end":2247.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2247.6122187500005,"end":2248.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2249.7890937500006,"end":2253.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2253.85596875,"end":2255.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2255.76284375,"end":2260.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2260.8759687500005,"end":2262.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2263.25534375,"end":2265.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2266.32659375,"end":2267.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2268.2840937500005,"end":2273.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2273.5828437500004,"end":2277.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2277.3122187500003,"end":2279.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2280.18096875,"end":2283.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2283.3534687500005,"end":2284.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2284.4840937500003,"end":2291.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2291.6053437500004,"end":2294.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2295.41909375,"end":2297.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2298.5915937500004,"end":2299.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2300.1778437500006,"end":2302.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2302.8272187500006,"end":2305.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2305.49346875,"end":2306.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2306.8434687500003,"end":2309.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2310.31971875,"end":2311.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2311.77096875,"end":2312.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2313.1884687500005,"end":2315.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2315.9559687500005,"end":2319.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2319.2634687500004,"end":2320.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2321.6090937500003,"end":2325.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2325.5409687500005,"end":2327.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2328.2578437500006,"end":2331.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2332.0547187500006,"end":2335.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2336.34096875,"end":2338.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2339.3447187500005,"end":2343.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2344.2890937500006,"end":2345.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2346.65159375,"end":2353.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2353.4522187500006,"end":2356.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2356.8272187500006,"end":2358.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2359.07159375,"end":2363.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2363.5772187500006,"end":2366.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2367.01971875,"end":2371.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2371.6434687500005,"end":2374.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2374.5965937500005,"end":2381.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2381.2790937500004,"end":2386.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2387.3203437500006,"end":2388.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2389.2947187500004,"end":2394.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2395.28534375,"end":2400.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2400.5840937500006,"end":2403.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2403.97596875,"end":2405.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2406.20346875,"end":2407.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2407.7390937500004,"end":2408.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2409.0722187500005,"end":2410.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2410.54034375,"end":2412.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2413.1053437500004,"end":2415.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2416.09221875,"end":2417.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2418.01596875,"end":2423.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2424.1247187500003,"end":2425.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2426.75721875,"end":2430.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2431.33034375,"end":2438.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2439.2615937500004,"end":2441.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2441.59034375,"end":2444.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2444.9315937500005,"end":2447.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2447.61471875,"end":2450.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2451.27659375,"end":2453.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2453.8415937500004,"end":2456.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2456.5584687500004,"end":2456.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2457.6553437500006,"end":2462.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2462.80221875,"end":2466.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2466.58221875,"end":2469.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2469.72096875,"end":2471.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2472.3534687500005,"end":2474.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2474.2097187500003,"end":2478.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2479.20471875,"end":2481.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2481.85409375,"end":2484.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2484.67221875,"end":2487.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2487.7097187500003,"end":2491.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2492.09721875,"end":2495.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2500.7372187500005,"end":2507.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2507.3690937500005,"end":2517.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2526.15096875,"end":2528.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2528.61471875,"end":2529.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2529.2559687500006,"end":2529.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2537.05221875,"end":2548.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2549.1853437500004,"end":2552.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2552.9315937500005,"end":2600.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2601.1940937500003,"end":2622.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2622.8953437500004,"end":2651.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2652.15659375,"end":2663.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2664.1715937500003,"end":2697.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2696.7403437500006,"end":2697.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2698.1240937500006,"end":2718.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2719.28534375,"end":2723.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2722.0359687500004,"end":2724.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2724.8878437500007,"end":2843.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2733.0047187500004,"end":2733.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2733.3590937500003,"end":2733.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2735.5865937500002,"end":2736.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2736.10971875,"end":2736.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2843.63721875,"end":2848.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2848.9022187500004,"end":2864.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2864.5284687500007,"end":2892.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2893.51971875,"end":2893.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2893.58721875,"end":2893.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2893.6209687500004,"end":2893.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2893.7559687500006,"end":2894.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2894.6334687500002,"end":2894.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2894.6503437500005,"end":2895.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2896.67534375,"end":2896.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2896.6922187500004,"end":2900.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2900.5059687500006,"end":2905.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2905.9734687500004,"end":2906.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2906.3278437500003,"end":2907.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2907.69471875,"end":2924.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2925.0084687500002,"end":2925.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2926.1559687500003,"end":2949.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2950.4053437500006,"end":3007.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3008.7928437500004,"end":3156.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3157.09034375,"end":3157.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3161.12346875,"end":3161.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3161.6465937500006,"end":3164.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3183.7022187500006,"end":3184.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3184.4615937500002,"end":3185.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3186.4697187500005,"end":3187.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3194.8903437500003,"end":3196.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3196.9659687500007,"end":3198.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3199.3622187500005,"end":3202.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3203.61471875,"end":3204.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3205.16721875,"end":3208.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3208.9978437500004,"end":3210.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3211.25909375,"end":3214.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3214.8534687500005,"end":3217.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3218.3634687500007,"end":3218.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3219.29159375,"end":3221.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3221.9072187500005,"end":3222.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3222.9365937500006,"end":3226.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3227.2734687500006,"end":3239.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3240.06471875,"end":3241.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3244.5534687500003,"end":3247.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3249.22784375,"end":3253.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3254.0372187500006,"end":3255.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3255.97784375,"end":3257.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3258.4415937500007,"end":3260.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3261.0065937500003,"end":3262.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3262.8797187500004,"end":3266.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3266.96346875,"end":3274.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3275.1309687500006,"end":3283.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3284.5809687500005,"end":3285.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3286.30221875,"end":3287.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3288.3947187500007,"end":3289.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3289.72784375,"end":3291.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3292.20846875,"end":3295.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3295.9040937500004,"end":3297.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3298.48596875,"end":3299.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3301.79346875,"end":3303.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3303.78471875,"end":3308.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3309.3028437500006,"end":3310.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3310.29846875,"end":3311.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3311.5134687500004,"end":3312.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3312.8972187500003,"end":3314.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3315.1415937500005,"end":3316.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3317.26784375,"end":3318.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3318.7697187500007,"end":3322.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3323.1572187500005,"end":3327.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3328.3209687500002,"end":3328.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3329.1647187500002,"end":3330.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3331.5947187500005,"end":3332.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3332.94471875,"end":3333.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3334.27784375,"end":3335.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3335.4590937500006,"end":3335.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3335.52659375,"end":3335.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3336.3534687500005,"end":3339.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3340.25159375,"end":3344.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3346.3603437500005,"end":3347.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3347.7272187500002,"end":3355.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3355.77659375,"end":3365.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3365.7665937500005,"end":3368.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3369.27659375,"end":3370.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3371.0822187500007,"end":3373.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3374.42346875,"end":3375.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3375.9590937500006,"end":3379.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3379.89096875,"end":3406.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3407.07659375,"end":3408.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3408.4434687500006,"end":3410.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3411.1603437500007,"end":3418.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3418.9734687500004,"end":3426.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3427.07346875,"end":3427.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3427.8328437500004,"end":3457.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3457.6847187500007,"end":3477.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3477.6647187500002,"end":3481.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3482.42346875,"end":3485.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3485.3259687500004,"end":3493.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3494.6915937500007,"end":3495.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3495.83909375,"end":3497.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3498.25221875,"end":3503.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3503.43284375,"end":3516.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3516.7472187500007,"end":3523.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3523.58159375,"end":3527.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3528.22221875,"end":3529.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3530.21346875,"end":3533.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3534.55034375,"end":3537.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3537.8747187500003,"end":3548.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3548.9784687500005,"end":3551.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3552.6403437500003,"end":3563.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3563.2715937500006,"end":3563.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3564.90846875,"end":3567.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3568.06409375,"end":3575.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3576.1472187500003,"end":3578.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3578.52659375,"end":3589.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3590.3222187500005,"end":3598.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3599.1140937500004,"end":3601.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3602.0672187500004,"end":3606.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3606.5222187500003,"end":3608.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3608.7159687500007,"end":3612.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3612.4284687500003,"end":3619.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3620.24159375,"end":3622.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3622.7390937500004,"end":3623.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3624.10596875,"end":3632.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3632.5772187500006,"end":3633.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3634.4334687500004,"end":3642.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3644.10284375,"end":3645.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3645.7734687500006,"end":3646.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3647.6465937500006,"end":3649.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3649.9247187500005,"end":3652.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3652.7090937500006,"end":3655.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3655.5272187500004,"end":3656.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3657.06284375,"end":3659.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3660.3534687500005,"end":3671.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3672.7565937500003,"end":3682.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3683.7422187500006,"end":3686.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3686.2228437500007,"end":3691.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3692.2472187500007,"end":3695.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3696.85409375,"end":3698.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3698.2547187500004,"end":3699.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3700.16159375,"end":3700.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3701.2753437500005,"end":3703.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3703.5028437500005,"end":3705.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3706.18596875,"end":3717.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3717.8972187500003,"end":3719.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3720.5465937500003,"end":3726.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3727.2459687500004,"end":3734.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3734.50221875,"end":3738.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3739.1934687500006,"end":3745.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3745.65659375,"end":3749.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3749.9090937500005,"end":3754.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3756.45659375,"end":3758.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3758.9372187500003,"end":3759.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3760.3209687500002,"end":3761.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3762.0084687500002,"end":3762.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3763.37534375,"end":3763.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3765.2822187500005,"end":3767.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3767.9315937500005,"end":3768.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3770.12534375,"end":3771.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3771.40784375,"end":3772.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3772.9434687500006,"end":3783.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3784.11471875,"end":3786.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3787.3547187500008,"end":3788.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3788.99159375,"end":3789.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3790.0378437500003,"end":3791.5734687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3792.0965937500005,"end":3795.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3795.7922187500008,"end":3796.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3796.88909375,"end":3800.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3801.2090937500006,"end":3803.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3803.6222187500007,"end":3805.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3806.1365937500004,"end":3807.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3808.16159375,"end":3818.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3818.87721875,"end":3820.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3820.44659375,"end":3821.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3822.1172187500006,"end":3822.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3823.83846875,"end":3824.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3825.1209687500004,"end":3830.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3830.8078437500008,"end":3836.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3836.2078437500004,"end":3837.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3838.30034375,"end":3845.1515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3845.82659375,"end":3846.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3847.21034375,"end":3848.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3848.84721875,"end":3852.3234687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3852.81284375,"end":3859.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3859.5459687500006,"end":3868.3547187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3868.8778437500005,"end":3869.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3870.17721875,"end":3872.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3872.77596875,"end":3877.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3878.1759687500007,"end":3883.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3883.55909375,"end":3900.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3900.97409375,"end":3923.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3923.6709687500006,"end":3928.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3928.4972187500007,"end":3928.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3929.42534375,"end":3941.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3942.08159375,"end":3948.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3948.2409687500003,"end":3949.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3949.67534375,"end":3955.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3955.88534375,"end":3979.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3979.5440937500007,"end":3986.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3986.9522187500006,"end":4006.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4006.9490937500004,"end":4008.8390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4008.43409375,"end":4010.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4010.2059687500005,"end":4010.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4010.96534375,"end":4011.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4014.5428437500004,"end":4019.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4029.8484687500004,"end":4032.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4032.59909375,"end":4033.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4037.7628437500007,"end":4038.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4038.20159375,"end":4038.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4040.0578437500008,"end":4076.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4077.06471875,"end":4137.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4137.44346875,"end":4139.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4139.468468749999,"end":4146.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4146.57284375,"end":4158.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4159.347218749999,"end":4222.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4222.71284375,"end":4228.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4228.3153437500005,"end":4277.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4278.2147187499995,"end":4279.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4280.12159375,"end":4285.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4285.42034375,"end":4287.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4287.15846875,"end":4291.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4292.25471875,"end":4293.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4292.339093750001,"end":4292.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4293.604718750001,"end":4293.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4293.90846875,"end":4293.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4293.925343749999,"end":4293.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4293.94221875,"end":4354.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4354.439093749999,"end":4359.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4359.602843750001,"end":4362.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4363.028468750001,"end":4382.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4382.58659375,"end":4387.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.41284375,"end":4399.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4400.06909375,"end":4412.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4412.7928437499995,"end":4417.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4417.33221875,"end":4421.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4421.63534375,"end":4430.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4431.30471875,"end":4431.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4432.435343749999,"end":4437.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4438.08846875,"end":4438.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4438.1053437499995,"end":4446.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4447.55534375,"end":4541.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4541.5322187500005,"end":4585.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4585.18784375,"end":4610.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4610.5340937500005,"end":4668.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4668.14534375,"end":4674.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4675.350968750001,"end":4675.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4676.31284375,"end":4691.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4691.7197187500005,"end":4702.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4702.587218750001,"end":4778.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4778.54159375,"end":4801.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4805.288468750001,"end":4806.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4807.56659375,"end":4810.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4811.802218750001,"end":4812.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4817.235968749999,"end":4819.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4819.716593749999,"end":4821.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4819.733468750001,"end":4819.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4827.749093750001,"end":4828.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4828.98096875,"end":4860.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4861.532843749999,"end":4871.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4871.35409375,"end":4875.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4875.555968750001,"end":4878.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4878.86346875,"end":4886.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4886.895968750001,"end":4916.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4919.1103437500005,"end":4935.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4935.90096875,"end":4941.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4941.874718749999,"end":4948.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4949.333468750001,"end":4957.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4959.25596875,"end":4965.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4966.124093750001,"end":4966.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4967.06909375,"end":4971.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4971.99659375,"end":4973.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4973.751593749999,"end":4974.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4974.67971875,"end":4977.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4977.48096875,"end":4985.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4987.015343749999,"end":4994.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4995.30096875,"end":4998.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4998.67596875,"end":5024.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5024.562218749999,"end":5025.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5025.878468750001,"end":5026.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5026.9247187500005,"end":5030.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5032.24034375,"end":5090.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5091.319718750001,"end":5094.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5094.509093750001,"end":5097.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5097.81659375,"end":5099.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5099.79096875,"end":5100.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5100.82034375,"end":5101.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5101.61346875,"end":5102.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5103.09846875,"end":5104.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5105.35971875,"end":5105.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5106.11909375,"end":5109.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5110.017218749999,"end":5125.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5126.30159375,"end":5132.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5132.714093750001,"end":5136.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5136.561593750001,"end":5143.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5143.19346875,"end":5147.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5147.935343749999,"end":5160.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5160.372218750001,"end":5162.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5162.9540937500005,"end":5167.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5167.74659375,"end":5173.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5173.70346875,"end":5184.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5184.925343750001,"end":5187.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5187.70971875,"end":5189.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5190.409718750001,"end":5221.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5221.679093750001,"end":5256.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5257.47096875,"end":5264.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5265.4022187499995,"end":5270.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5270.717843750001,"end":5274.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5274.80159375,"end":5279.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5279.30721875,"end":5281.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5281.75409375,"end":5284.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5284.84221875,"end":5286.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5287.3397187499995,"end":5289.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5289.9384687500005,"end":5291.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.16596875,"end":5300.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5301.16034375,"end":5318.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5318.4403437500005,"end":5323.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5323.350968750001,"end":5337.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5336.715968750001,"end":5336.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5337.407843749999,"end":5344.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5345.17034375,"end":5379.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5379.84846875,"end":5385.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5386.024718750001,"end":5405.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5406.038468750001,"end":5425.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5425.309718750001,"end":5428.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5428.78596875,"end":5435.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5435.87346875,"end":5474.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5473.909718750001,"end":5475.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5476.08659375,"end":5523.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5524.0115937499995,"end":5528.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5529.7997187500005,"end":5531.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5540.987843750001,"end":5544.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5555.07846875,"end":5556.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5557.440968750001,"end":5558.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5565.372218750001,"end":5593.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5566.0809687500005,"end":5566.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5593.60409375,"end":5596.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5596.962218750001,"end":5618.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5619.2372187500005,"end":5623.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5626.24034375,"end":5626.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5627.8603437500005,"end":5627.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5628.5184687500005,"end":5675.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5676.274718750001,"end":5705.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5705.940968750001,"end":5721.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5706.00846875,"end":5706.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5720.45346875,"end":5737.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5738.948468750001,"end":5745.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5745.58034375,"end":5763.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5764.04159375,"end":5778.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5769.67784375,"end":5769.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5779.27971875,"end":5795.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5796.222218750001,"end":5802.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5803.05659375,"end":5835.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5825.044718749999,"end":5825.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5832.33471875,"end":5832.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5834.96721875,"end":5859.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5859.14909375,"end":5859.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5860.46534375,"end":5878.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5879.7197187500005,"end":5880.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5881.08659375,"end":5883.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5883.128468750001,"end":5890.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5891.3465937500005,"end":5894.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5894.232218749999,"end":5895.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5896.155968749999,"end":5922.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5923.29096875,"end":5924.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5926.075343750001,"end":5931.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5932.251593750001,"end":5937.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5934.42846875,"end":5934.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5938.394093750001,"end":5961.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5962.626593750001,"end":5967.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5967.975968750001,"end":5969.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5971.772843750001,"end":5971.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5972.31284375,"end":5979.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5979.6365937499995,"end":5985.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5986.167218750001,"end":5995.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5995.870343750001,"end":6014.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5999.430968750001,"end":5999.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6014.466593749999,"end":6020.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6020.710343750001,"end":6023.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6023.69721875,"end":6037.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6029.670968750001,"end":6029.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6029.73846875,"end":6030.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6036.20159375,"end":6050.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6048.95909375,"end":6049.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6049.88721875,"end":6053.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6053.83596875,"end":6061.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6061.7840937500005,"end":6077.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6073.022843750001,"end":6073.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6077.86596875,"end":6090.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6091.399718750001,"end":6109.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6109.624718749999,"end":6122.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6123.0740937499995,"end":6127.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6127.680968750001,"end":6128.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6129.182843750001,"end":6129.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6130.5497187500005,"end":6134.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6133.65471875,"end":6133.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6133.70534375,"end":6134.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6134.02596875,"end":6134.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6134.329718750001,"end":6136.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6135.76409375,"end":6135.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6135.84846875,"end":6137.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6137.18159375,"end":6158.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6137.40096875,"end":6137.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6159.405968749999,"end":6160.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6161.02596875,"end":6175.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6175.97721875,"end":6190.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6190.28721875,"end":6200.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6195.67034375,"end":6196.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6199.97346875,"end":6199.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6200.04096875,"end":6200.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6200.36159375,"end":6248.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6202.36971875,"end":6202.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6249.0965937500005,"end":6249.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6249.75471875,"end":6252.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6253.062218749999,"end":6257.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6257.34846875,"end":6261.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6261.80346875,"end":6266.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6266.54534375,"end":6266.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6266.663468750001,"end":6268.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6269.17784375,"end":6270.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6271.33784375,"end":6292.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6292.634093750001,"end":6294.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6294.38909375,"end":6295.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6295.958468750001,"end":6299.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6299.0634687500005,"end":6303.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6300.16034375,"end":6300.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6302.573468750001,"end":6303.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6303.53534375,"end":6304.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6306.01596875,"end":6306.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6310.217843750001,"end":6313.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6325.4559687500005,"end":6326.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6334.163468750001,"end":6334.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6335.7665937500005,"end":6339.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6339.42846875,"end":6342.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6342.550343750001,"end":6344.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6344.760968750001,"end":6347.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6347.64659375,"end":6349.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6349.51971875,"end":6350.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6350.65034375,"end":6357.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6357.2822187500005,"end":6361.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6362.108468750001,"end":6363.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6364.65659375,"end":6371.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6372.01409375,"end":6373.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6374.342843750001,"end":6387.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6387.99471875,"end":6390.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6391.33596875,"end":6392.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6393.19221875,"end":6402.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6403.874093750001,"end":6406.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6407.50221875,"end":6411.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6411.80534375,"end":6421.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6421.2215937500005,"end":6422.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6423.43221875,"end":6424.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6425.474093750001,"end":6427.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6428.5115937499995,"end":6429.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6429.43971875,"end":6429.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6430.013468749999,"end":6430.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6430.030343750001,"end":6441.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6441.977843750001,"end":6446.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6445.251593750001,"end":6445.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6446.02784375,"end":6457.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6447.71534375,"end":6448.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6458.0428437499995,"end":6462.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6463.18971875,"end":6464.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6466.27784375,"end":6471.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6475.66034375,"end":6489.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6489.970343750001,"end":6492.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6490.5272187499995,"end":6492.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6493.56471875,"end":6493.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6493.581593750001,"end":6494.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6495.48846875,"end":6499.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6499.75784375,"end":6500.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6500.12909375,"end":6507.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6508.36409375,"end":6510.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6511.18221875,"end":6516.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6517.341593749999,"end":6519.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6520.24409375,"end":6528.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6528.66471875,"end":6531.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6531.972218750001,"end":6537.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6538.1990937499995,"end":6543.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6544.1728437500005,"end":6557.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6557.77409375,"end":6557.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6557.9090937500005,"end":6561.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6557.92596875,"end":6557.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6562.448468750001,"end":6567.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6567.966593749999,"end":6573.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6573.11346875,"end":6573.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6573.40034375,"end":6573.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6573.75471875,"end":6576.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6576.75846875,"end":6583.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6579.23909375,"end":6579.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6583.87971875,"end":6593.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6583.94721875,"end":6584.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6593.02596875,"end":6607.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6596.654093749999,"end":6596.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6601.530968749999,"end":6601.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6608.1122187500005,"end":6611.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6611.16659375,"end":6614.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6614.72721875,"end":6618.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6618.70971875,"end":6619.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6619.823468750001,"end":6620.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6621.52784375,"end":6636.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6637.27221875,"end":6637.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6638.13284375,"end":6645.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6646.41846875,"end":6647.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6647.717843750001,"end":6648.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6649.540343750001,"end":6651.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6652.965968750001,"end":6668.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6653.708468750001,"end":6653.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6654.889718750001,"end":6655.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6669.16596875,"end":6689.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6687.779093749999,"end":6689.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6689.382218750001,"end":6690.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6690.040343750001,"end":6692.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6693.4490937499995,"end":6693.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6694.41096875,"end":6695.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6695.710343750001,"end":6699.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6697.3134687500005,"end":6701.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6701.380343750001,"end":6707.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6707.50596875,"end":6708.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6709.075343750001,"end":6711.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6711.77534375,"end":6713.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6714.036593750001,"end":6718.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6719.2509687500005,"end":6731.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6732.29534375,"end":6733.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6734.624093750001,"end":6736.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6736.61534375,"end":6743.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6744.411593750001,"end":6748.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6748.90034375,"end":6752.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6752.46096875,"end":6754.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6754.80659375,"end":6756.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6757.37159375,"end":6761.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6761.91096875,"end":6763.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6763.41284375,"end":6766.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6766.60221875,"end":6769.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6769.538468750001,"end":6772.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6772.862843750001,"end":6777.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6778.36409375,"end":6780.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6780.57471875,"end":6785.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6785.333468750001,"end":6789.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6790.395968750001,"end":6792.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6793.585343750001,"end":6797.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6798.39471875,"end":6799.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6799.727843750001,"end":6802.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6802.680968750001,"end":6807.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6807.62534375,"end":6811.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6812.60346875,"end":6817.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6818.59409375,"end":6819.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6820.04534375,"end":6824.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6824.702843749999,"end":6825.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6826.03596875,"end":6829.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6829.7147187499995,"end":6841.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6832.077218750001,"end":6832.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6834.70971875,"end":6836.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6840.61596875,"end":6841.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6841.577843749999,"end":6841.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6841.965968750001,"end":6842.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6842.708468750001,"end":6842.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6842.74221875,"end":6842.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6842.7928437499995,"end":6842.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6842.809718750001,"end":6842.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6842.843468749999,"end":6843.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6843.33284375,"end":6844.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6844.767218750001,"end":6860.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6860.27534375,"end":6863.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6863.49846875,"end":6863.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6863.565968750001,"end":6864.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6865.1522187499995,"end":6868.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6868.493468750001,"end":6869.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6869.944718750001,"end":6871.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6871.9697187500005,"end":6885.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6886.85346875,"end":6903.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6895.98284375,"end":6896.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6902.20971875,"end":6909.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6909.972218750001,"end":6910.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6911.2040937500005,"end":6918.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6911.32221875,"end":6911.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6918.645968750001,"end":6927.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6927.977843750001,"end":6928.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6928.905968750001,"end":6928.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6928.9228437500005,"end":6942.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6933.040343750001,"end":6933.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6941.69721875,"end":6948.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6949.392218750001,"end":6953.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6953.8134687500005,"end":6954.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6954.70784375,"end":6955.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6955.484093750001,"end":6956.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6957.20534375,"end":6957.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6958.08284375,"end":6959.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6959.095343750001,"end":6959.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6959.60159375,"end":6962.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6962.149718750001,"end":6963.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6962.82471875,"end":6964.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6963.43221875,"end":6964.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6964.83284375,"end":6965.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6965.40659375,"end":6966.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6966.655343750001,"end":6968.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6969.11909375,"end":6970.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6971.02596875,"end":6972.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6973.675343750001,"end":6974.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6974.282843750001,"end":6977.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6977.759093750001,"end":6980.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6981.420968750001,"end":6998.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6999.561593750001,"end":7000.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7000.776593750001,"end":7001.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7004.35409375,"end":7006.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7005.265343750001,"end":7009.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7006.919093750001,"end":7008.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7008.876593750001,"end":7013.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7013.888468749999,"end":7017.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7017.82034375,"end":7020.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7019.423468750001,"end":7021.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7022.17409375,"end":7024.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7023.47346875,"end":7026.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7027.304093750001,"end":7032.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7032.0965937500005,"end":7034.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7034.93159375,"end":7039.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7040.21346875,"end":7041.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7041.512843750001,"end":7041.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7041.833468750001,"end":7052.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7053.05534375,"end":7056.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7056.7509687500005,"end":7064.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7064.850968750001,"end":7066.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7067.010968750001,"end":7071.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7071.66846875,"end":7072.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7075.110968750001,"end":7082.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7083.16034375,"end":7100.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7084.915343750001,"end":7085.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7096.55909375,"end":7097.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7099.5965937500005,"end":7105.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7105.38471875,"end":7109.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7110.092843750001,"end":7110.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7110.58221875,"end":7113.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7113.839093750001,"end":7119.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7119.67784375,"end":7127.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7128.35159375,"end":7140.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7141.0584687499995,"end":7143.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7144.18034375,"end":7158.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7158.456593750001,"end":7164.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7164.936593750001,"end":7168.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7168.59846875,"end":7171.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7172.17596875,"end":7176.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7176.29346875,"end":7179.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7179.702218750001,"end":7181.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7182.874718750001,"end":7189.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7189.962218750001,"end":7189.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7190.012843750001,"end":7191.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7191.514718750001,"end":7193.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7194.58596875,"end":7196.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7196.83034375,"end":7198.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7198.97346875,"end":7201.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7201.36971875,"end":7201.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7202.39909375,"end":7212.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7213.6884687500005,"end":7218.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7218.784718750001,"end":7233.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7223.77971875,"end":7224.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7233.0947187500005,"end":7239.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7239.81096875,"end":7240.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7241.39721875,"end":7241.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7241.700968749999,"end":7241.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7241.802218750001,"end":7243.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7243.08471875,"end":7251.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7250.35784375,"end":7256.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7251.75846875,"end":7251.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7256.567843750001,"end":7259.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7259.048468750001,"end":7259.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7260.077843750001,"end":7261.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7260.82034375,"end":7261.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7261.22534375,"end":7261.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7261.259093750001,"end":7261.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7261.32659375,"end":7261.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7261.3603437500005,"end":7261.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7261.37721875,"end":7261.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7261.56284375,"end":7261.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7261.765343750001,"end":7261.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7262.40659375,"end":7263.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7268.700968749999,"end":7270.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7278.94409375,"end":7281.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7281.779093749999,"end":7282.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7290.030968750001,"end":7290.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7290.8240937499995,"end":7335.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7290.874718750001,"end":7290.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7336.42034375,"end":7428.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7429.33409375,"end":7436.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7436.91096875,"end":7451.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7451.45721875,"end":7458.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7458.696593750001,"end":7507.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7507.98846875,"end":7521.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7521.70784375,"end":7529.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7529.419718749999,"end":7530.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7530.98909375,"end":7531.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7531.90034375,"end":7541.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7542.919718749999,"end":7545.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7547.003468750001,"end":7594.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7595.58659375,"end":7596.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7597.442843750001,"end":7613.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7614.925343750001,"end":7616.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7617.15284375,"end":7620.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7621.13534375,"end":7636.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7637.16659375,"end":7688.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7688.60159375,"end":7703.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7703.333468750001,"end":7777.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7779.405968750001,"end":7780.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7780.9247187500005,"end":7782.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7782.57846875,"end":7785.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7786.493468750001,"end":7795.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7796.12909375,"end":7801.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7801.66409375,"end":7806.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7807.14846875,"end":7813.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7813.341593749999,"end":7816.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7816.4803437499995,"end":7826.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7824.3778437500005,"end":7831.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7829.372843749999,"end":7830.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7831.88721875,"end":7884.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7884.53721875,"end":7893.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7887.642218750001,"end":7887.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7887.67596875,"end":7887.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7887.692843750001,"end":7887.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7887.96284375,"end":7888.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7888.04721875,"end":7888.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7888.51971875,"end":7889.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7889.92034375,"end":7895.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7893.936593750001,"end":7895.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7895.45534375,"end":7895.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7896.43409375,"end":7904.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7904.12909375,"end":7922.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7922.32034375,"end":7955.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7956.66096875,"end":7975.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7975.71284375,"end":7981.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7982.007218750001,"end":7982.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7982.04096875,"end":8063.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8063.614718750001,"end":8076.169718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8078.97096875,"end":8087.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8086.952843750001,"end":8090.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8088.792218750001,"end":8088.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8088.80909375,"end":8089.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8089.12971875,"end":8089.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8089.61909375,"end":8090.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8090.41221875,"end":8092.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8091.981593750001,"end":8108.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8094.512843750001,"end":8094.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8108.87346875,"end":8110.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8111.894093750001,"end":8116.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8114.104718750001,"end":8119.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8119.4540937500005,"end":8123.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8122.08659375,"end":8123.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8124.128468750001,"end":8124.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8124.14534375,"end":8124.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8124.16221875,"end":8124.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8124.179093750001,"end":8126.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8124.19596875,"end":8125.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8127.790343750001,"end":8183.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8131.55346875,"end":8131.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8183.899718750001,"end":8207.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8208.621593750002,"end":8209.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8211.304718750001,"end":8212.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8216.35034375,"end":8219.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8230.727843749999,"end":8232.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8240.59971875,"end":8241.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8241.39284375,"end":8251.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8251.68659375,"end":8281.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8281.84221875,"end":8362.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8363.550968750002,"end":8366.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8366.89221875,"end":8383.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8384.273468750001,"end":8389.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8388.99846875,"end":8389.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8389.57221875,"end":8392.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8392.086593750002,"end":8392.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8392.32284375,"end":8394.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8394.36471875,"end":8399.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8399.74784375,"end":8404.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8404.371593750002,"end":8404.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8404.422218750002,"end":8437.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8405.97471875,"end":8406.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8406.02534375,"end":8406.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8406.44721875,"end":8406.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8422.292843750001,"end":8424.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8437.46346875,"end":8442.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8437.51409375,"end":8438.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8442.84659375,"end":8456.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8451.58784375,"end":8451.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8456.042843750001,"end":8456.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8456.29596875,"end":8458.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8459.164718750002,"end":8461.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8461.44284375,"end":8466.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8466.42096875,"end":8484.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8484.257843750001,"end":8654.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8655.066593750002,"end":8686.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8687.16284375,"end":8707.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8707.68284375,"end":8709.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8709.31971875,"end":8722.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8722.515968750002,"end":8726.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8724.60846875,"end":8724.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8727.07221875,"end":8741.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8741.331593750001,"end":8741.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8741.753468750001,"end":8766.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8766.711593750002,"end":8767.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8767.437218750001,"end":8771.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8771.79096875,"end":8781.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8781.325343750003,"end":8816.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8781.44346875,"end":8781.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8785.594718750002,"end":8785.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8816.813468750002,"end":8817.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8817.910343750002,"end":8867.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8825.16659375,"end":8825.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8867.910968750002,"end":8868.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8868.012218750002,"end":8868.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8868.062843750002,"end":9030.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9030.40034375,"end":9036.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9033.67409375,"end":9034.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9036.20534375,"end":9036.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9036.27284375,"end":9036.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9036.57659375,"end":9043.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9039.546593750001,"end":9040.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9041.94284375,"end":9042.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9043.32659375,"end":9047.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9043.343468750001,"end":9043.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9046.144718750002,"end":9046.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9047.44409375,"end":9047.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9047.71409375,"end":9047.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9047.933468750001,"end":9059.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9057.434093750002,"end":9057.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9059.61096875,"end":9061.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9062.14221875,"end":9062.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9062.327843750001,"end":9069.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9069.921593750001,"end":9070.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9070.00596875,"end":9079.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9079.101593750001,"end":9080.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9080.063468750002,"end":9106.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9081.98721875,"end":9082.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9095.250968750002,"end":9095.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9095.36909375,"end":9095.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9100.144718750002,"end":9100.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9100.735343750002,"end":9100.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9105.29159375,"end":9105.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9106.06784375,"end":9109.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9113.813468750002,"end":9114.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9115.602218750002,"end":9122.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9123.246593750002,"end":9126.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9135.66659375,"end":9137.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9138.012218750002,"end":9138.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9144.930968750003,"end":9145.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9146.21346875,"end":9212.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9215.367218750001,"end":9218.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9219.14721875,"end":9245.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9245.72534375,"end":9256.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9256.761593750001,"end":9302.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9302.61096875,"end":9311.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9311.655968750001,"end":9319.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9311.875343750002,"end":9312.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9319.45221875,"end":9326.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9327.484718750002,"end":9335.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9336.20909375,"end":9340.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9340.360343750002,"end":9357.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9357.77534375,"end":9359.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9360.10409375,"end":9382.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9383.40846875,"end":9458.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9458.839718750001,"end":9476.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9476.81159375,"end":9550.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9551.399093750002,"end":9574.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9575.074718750002,"end":9576.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9578.196593750003,"end":9584.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9584.89596875,"end":9587.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9587.42721875,"end":9591.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9592.118468750003,"end":9595.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9595.628468750001,"end":9605.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9605.922218750002,"end":9608.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9609.06096875,"end":9609.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9610.02284375,"end":9614.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9615.422843750002,"end":9623.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9624.36659375,"end":9635.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9635.33534375,"end":9638.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9639.402218750001,"end":9641.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9642.13596875,"end":9654.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9654.555968750003,"end":9660.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9661.289093750001,"end":9663.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9663.85409375,"end":9665.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9665.625968750002,"end":9677.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9678.09659375,"end":9680.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9680.18909375,"end":9720.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9694.11096875,"end":9694.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9721.667843750001,"end":9758.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9758.65784375,"end":9764.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9764.699093750001,"end":9778.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9778.50284375,"end":9780.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9785.370968750001,"end":9787.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10126.54971875,"end":10130.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10136.050343750001,"end":10136.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10137.332843750002,"end":10137.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10138.429718750001,"end":10139.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10148.250968750002,"end":10149.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10149.95534375,"end":10160.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10160.70471875,"end":10171.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10171.72409375,"end":10187.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10187.468468750001,"end":10228.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10228.64346875,"end":10240.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10241.316593750002,"end":10301.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10302.25221875,"end":10321.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10321.82721875,"end":10330.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10331.88471875,"end":10341.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10342.06034375,"end":10355.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10355.52659375,"end":10365.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10365.769718750002,"end":10366.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10366.37721875,"end":10366.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10366.96784375,"end":10366.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10366.984718750002,"end":10375.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10375.675343750001,"end":10376.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10376.957843750002,"end":10388.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10379.03346875,"end":10379.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10387.403468750003,"end":10387.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10388.652218750001,"end":10396.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10396.81971875,"end":10400.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10400.61659375,"end":10402.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10402.43909375,"end":10405.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10405.324718750002,"end":10408.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10409.020343750002,"end":10411.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10411.922843750002,"end":10417.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10417.407218750002,"end":10437.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10437.977843750003,"end":10444.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10444.407218750002,"end":10452.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10453.165343750003,"end":10456.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10456.77659375,"end":10460.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10460.387843750003,"end":10462.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10462.497218750003,"end":10465.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10465.51784375,"end":10469.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10469.26409375,"end":10474.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10475.153468750003,"end":10477.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10477.515968750002,"end":10483.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10484.28284375,"end":10487.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10488.45096875,"end":10488.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10488.687218750001,"end":10488.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10488.92346875,"end":10489.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10489.024718750003,"end":10499.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10497.41159375,"end":10497.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10500.01034375,"end":10527.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10529.17034375,"end":10543.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10531.27971875,"end":10533.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10543.66596875,"end":10554.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10554.027218750001,"end":10597.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10599.505343750003,"end":10609.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10609.02284375,"end":10609.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10609.714718750001,"end":10609.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10610.153468750003,"end":10633.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10634.47034375,"end":10635.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10636.59659375,"end":10637.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10637.91284375,"end":10639.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10642.587218750003,"end":10650.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10647.750968750002,"end":10647.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10647.784718750001,"end":10647.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10647.97034375,"end":10648.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10648.03784375,"end":10648.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10650.56909375,"end":10655.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10655.547218750002,"end":10667.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10666.22909375,"end":10670.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10670.65034375,"end":10670.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10671.274718750003,"end":10695.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10695.23721875,"end":10700.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10700.468468750001,"end":10701.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10702.442843750003,"end":10703.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10703.894093750001,"end":10710.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10710.84659375,"end":10767.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10768.019093750001,"end":10772.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10773.63846875,"end":10773.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10773.70596875,"end":10774.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10775.79846875,"end":10776.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10778.582843750002,"end":10781.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10792.386593750001,"end":10794.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10794.58034375,"end":10795.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10802.190968750001,"end":10802.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10802.984093750001,"end":10809.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10809.54846875,"end":10815.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10815.758468750002,"end":10819.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10819.656593750002,"end":10821.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10821.78284375,"end":10825.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10826.102843750003,"end":10848.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10848.563468750002,"end":10858.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10858.70534375,"end":10863.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10864.527218750001,"end":10868.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10868.644718750002,"end":10875.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10875.58034375,"end":10879.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10879.42784375,"end":10884.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10884.827843750001,"end":10886.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10887.004718750002,"end":10891.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10891.72971875,"end":10892.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10892.961593750002,"end":10897.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10897.51784375,"end":10898.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10898.918468750002,"end":10913.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10913.903468750003,"end":10918.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10918.965968750003,"end":10924.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10924.68659375,"end":10932.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10931.90909375,"end":10936.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10936.785968750002,"end":10937.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10938.270968750003,"end":10944.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10944.34596875,"end":10946.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10946.286593750003,"end":10946.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10947.062843750002,"end":10953.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10953.77909375,"end":10955.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10955.83784375,"end":10962.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10962.419093750003,"end":11014.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11014.562843750002,"end":11020.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11021.07659375,"end":11026.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11027.20221875,"end":11028.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11028.82221875,"end":11031.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11032.112843750001,"end":11034.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11034.289718750002,"end":11040.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11040.668468750002,"end":11044.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11044.887218750002,"end":11048.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11048.633468750002,"end":11051.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11052.24471875,"end":11055.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11055.180968750003,"end":11058.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11058.218468750001,"end":11062.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11060.88471875,"end":11061.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11062.21784375,"end":11067.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11067.75284375,"end":11071.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11069.052218750003,"end":11070.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11071.54971875,"end":11072.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11072.781593750002,"end":11075.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11072.950343750003,"end":11073.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11076.44346875,"end":11079.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11079.44721875,"end":11084.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11084.08784375,"end":11103.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11104.320968750002,"end":11117.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11121.06096875,"end":11135.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11135.82659375,"end":11136.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11136.754718750002,"end":11141.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11141.47971875,"end":11145.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11146.37346875,"end":11147.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11147.16659375,"end":11178.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11178.48659375,"end":11181.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11182.941593750002,"end":11186.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11186.72159375,"end":11187.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11188.020968750003,"end":11189.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11189.708468750003,"end":11191.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11189.72534375,"end":11190.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11191.395968750003,"end":11206.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11206.887218750002,"end":11212.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11212.050968750002,"end":11213.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11213.40096875,"end":11214.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11215.544093750003,"end":11219.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11219.67846875,"end":11222.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11222.969093750002,"end":11225.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11225.58471875,"end":11236.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11236.45221875,"end":11243.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11243.489093750002,"end":11281.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11282.84159375,"end":11283.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11286.317843750003,"end":11287.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11289.50721875,"end":11300.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11293.08471875,"end":11293.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11301.47159375,"end":11301.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11302.31534375,"end":11303.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11303.15909375,"end":11310.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11308.54221875,"end":11309.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11309.099093750003,"end":11312.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11312.76096875,"end":11320.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11321.097218750001,"end":11323.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11323.965968750003,"end":11327.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11327.796593750001,"end":11341.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11341.465343750002,"end":11344.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11345.009093750003,"end":11346.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11346.629093750002,"end":11351.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11351.742218750001,"end":11364.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11365.02284375,"end":11373.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11374.01721875,"end":11379.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11380.109093750001,"end":11385.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11385.74534375,"end":11385.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11386.26846875,"end":11387.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11387.753468750001,"end":11391.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11391.95534375,"end":11392.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11392.394093750001,"end":11394.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11397.01784375,"end":11397.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11397.97971875,"end":11398.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11399.81909375,"end":11402.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11411.26034375,"end":11413.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11413.707218750002,"end":11414.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11420.997218750003,"end":11428.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11429.789093750001,"end":11430.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11430.582218750002,"end":11431.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11432.016593750002,"end":11434.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11434.68284375,"end":11435.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11436.47159375,"end":11439.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11439.62721875,"end":11441.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11442.25971875,"end":11446.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11445.077843750001,"end":11447.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11447.59221875,"end":11447.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11447.64284375,"end":11447.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11447.946593750003,"end":11447.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11447.96346875,"end":11448.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11448.38534375,"end":11448.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11449.634093750003,"end":11469.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11470.42409375,"end":11472.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11472.95534375,"end":11475.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11476.144718750002,"end":11480.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11481.29159375,"end":11511.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11511.784718750001,"end":11521.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11522.230343750001,"end":11522.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11522.247218750003,"end":11522.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11522.280968750001,"end":11522.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11522.601593750001,"end":11524.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11524.17096875,"end":11524.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11524.457843750002,"end":11525.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11525.099093750003,"end":11525.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11525.11596875,"end":11525.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11525.48721875,"end":11525.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11526.465968750003,"end":11533.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11534.66721875,"end":11537.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11537.70471875,"end":11543.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11544.94409375,"end":11550.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11550.141593750002,"end":11557.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11556.030968750001,"end":11559.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11558.140343750001,"end":11570.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11564.535968750002,"end":11565.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11569.61534375,"end":11580.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11572.83846875,"end":11573.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11580.58409375,"end":11581.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11581.69784375,"end":11588.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11589.88221875,"end":11595.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11593.155968750001,"end":11596.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11596.24409375,"end":11606.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11606.95971875,"end":11613.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11614.70534375,"end":11620.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11621.438468750002,"end":11623.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11630.500343750002,"end":11638.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11639.140343750001,"end":11641.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11642.211593750002,"end":11643.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11643.51096875,"end":11647.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11647.93221875,"end":11649.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11649.87284375,"end":11652.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11652.488468750002,"end":11654.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11654.46284375,"end":11658.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11658.563468750002,"end":11663.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11663.59221875,"end":11665.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11665.65096875,"end":11670.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11671.000343750002,"end":11674.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11674.375343750002,"end":11677.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11679.82596875,"end":11680.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11680.973468750002,"end":11681.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11684.297843750002,"end":11685.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11684.38221875,"end":11684.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11685.765968750002,"end":11690.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11690.474093750003,"end":11698.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11698.489718750003,"end":11706.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11707.09596875,"end":11708.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11709.37409375,"end":11710.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11710.825343750003,"end":11712.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11712.192218750002,"end":11715.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11715.617843750002,"end":11715.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11716.37721875,"end":11721.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11721.76034375,"end":11726.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11726.99159375,"end":11727.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11728.206593750001,"end":11730.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11728.25721875,"end":11728.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11730.383468750002,"end":11730.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11730.45096875,"end":11730.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11730.855968750002,"end":11732.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11732.813468750002,"end":11735.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11735.378468750001,"end":11736.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11737.285343750002,"end":11740.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11741.58846875,"end":11746.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11746.90409375,"end":11748.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11748.625343750002,"end":11753.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11753.957843750002,"end":11758.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11759.08784375,"end":11767.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11767.20471875,"end":11771.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11771.727218750002,"end":11780.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11779.70909375,"end":11782.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11782.797218750002,"end":11784.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11785.31159375,"end":11798.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11798.38971875,"end":11801.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11801.984093750001,"end":11804.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11803.722218750001,"end":11812.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11812.699718750002,"end":11812.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11812.73346875,"end":11814.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11814.03284375,"end":11814.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11814.387218750002,"end":11814.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11814.589718750001,"end":11814.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11815.855343750001,"end":11815.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11815.872218750003,"end":11816.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11816.665343750003,"end":11820.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11820.73221875,"end":11825.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11826.081593750001,"end":11828.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11828.781593750002,"end":11830.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11830.418468750002,"end":11833.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11833.270343750002,"end":11835.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11835.953468750002,"end":11839.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11839.649093750002,"end":11841.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11840.070968750002,"end":11841.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11842.973468750002,"end":11844.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11844.930968750003,"end":11848.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11848.761593750001,"end":11854.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11854.347218750001,"end":11857.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11858.009093750003,"end":11873.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11873.702843750001,"end":11877.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11877.921593750001,"end":11879.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11880.351593750001,"end":11889.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11889.632843750001,"end":11891.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11892.434093750002,"end":11897.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11898.40784375,"end":11899.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11901.00659375,"end":11902.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11902.035968750002,"end":11902.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11903.21721875,"end":11909.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11903.504093750002,"end":11904.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11909.76471875,"end":11915.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11916.008468750002,"end":11931.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11931.719093750002,"end":11933.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11935.54971875,"end":11938.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11939.19471875,"end":11940.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11940.51096875,"end":11960.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11961.01409375,"end":11961.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11961.030968750001,"end":11963.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11964.321593750003,"end":11968.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11968.253468750001,"end":11968.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11968.270343750002,"end":11968.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11968.422218750002,"end":11970.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11970.784718750001,"end":11971.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11971.29096875,"end":11972.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11972.708468750003,"end":11973.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11973.09659375,"end":11975.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11975.35784375,"end":11978.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11978.614718750003,"end":11978.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11978.93534375,"end":11986.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11978.95221875,"end":11978.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11987.474093750003,"end":11989.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11990.27534375,"end":11995.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11996.738468750002,"end":11997.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11997.97034375,"end":12005.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12006.69471875,"end":12007.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12008.567843750003,"end":12014.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12014.74409375,"end":12018.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12018.473468750002,"end":12029.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12030.03284375,"end":12031.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12031.83846875,"end":12037.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12037.862843750001,"end":12040.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12041.28846875,"end":12043.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12043.887218750002,"end":12054.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12054.36659375,"end":12055.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12056.20596875,"end":12062.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12062.01096875,"end":12062.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12062.68596875,"end":12062.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12062.972843750002,"end":12063.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12063.411593750003,"end":12071.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12071.66346875,"end":12079.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12079.08846875,"end":12084.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12085.14659375,"end":12085.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12089.85471875,"end":12093.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12101.44784375,"end":12114.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12109.21034375,"end":12109.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12113.88471875,"end":12116.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12116.88846875,"end":12117.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12116.922218750002,"end":12117.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12118.862843750001,"end":12133.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12133.83096875,"end":12137.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12137.374718750001,"end":12144.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12144.69846875,"end":12147.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12147.347843750002,"end":12169.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12169.335968750001,"end":12175.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12170.399093750002,"end":12170.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12175.090343750002,"end":12176.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12175.10721875,"end":12175.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12176.33909375,"end":12177.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12177.199718750002,"end":12180.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12181.688468750002,"end":12182.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12182.515343750001,"end":12187.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12187.864718750003,"end":12200.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12195.72846875,"end":12197.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12201.11159375,"end":12201.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12201.938468750002,"end":12206.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12206.79846875,"end":12209.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12210.19034375,"end":12210.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12210.274718750003,"end":12212.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12212.789093750001,"end":12215.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12213.04221875,"end":12214.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12215.15159375,"end":12237.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12216.332843750002,"end":12218.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12238.43909375,"end":12242.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12242.35409375,"end":12250.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12251.83784375,"end":12262.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12263.042843750001,"end":12263.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12263.414093750001,"end":12263.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12263.92034375,"end":12277.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12279.242843750002,"end":12280.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12281.01471875,"end":12287.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12287.39346875,"end":12308.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12308.672843750002,"end":12311.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12311.102843750003,"end":12312.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12312.402218750001,"end":12312.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12312.75659375,"end":12312.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12312.874718750001,"end":12314.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12312.90846875,"end":12313.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12313.887218750002,"end":12317.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12317.27909375,"end":12319.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12320.097218750001,"end":12355.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12356.05784375,"end":12366.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12366.06471875,"end":12393.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12372.055343750002,"end":12373.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12388.69409375,"end":12390.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12393.824093750001,"end":12394.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12394.39784375,"end":12396.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12394.43159375,"end":12394.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12395.91659375,"end":12405.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12405.535343750002,"end":12408.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12406.851593750001,"end":12407.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12408.134093750003,"end":12413.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12414.023468750001,"end":12416.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12417.044093750003,"end":12422.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12420.368468750003,"end":12421.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12421.81971875,"end":12423.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12423.355343750001,"end":12426.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12426.34221875,"end":12445.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12444.73596875,"end":12444.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12445.84971875,"end":12450.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12450.254093750002,"end":12471.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12471.769718750002,"end":12488.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12483.71721875,"end":12485.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12486.737843750001,"end":12487.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12487.71659375,"end":12553.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12499.630343750003,"end":12500.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12553.12409375,"end":12562.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12562.97909375,"end":12566.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12565.797218750002,"end":12586.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12574.16721875,"end":12574.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12574.20096875,"end":12574.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12582.60471875,"end":12582.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12583.81971875,"end":12584.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12584.899718750003,"end":12588.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12588.730343750001,"end":12591.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12591.34596875,"end":12591.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12593.10096875,"end":12594.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12594.67034375,"end":12596.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12599.63159375,"end":12602.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12601.21784375,"end":12662.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12603.833468750003,"end":12604.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12663.16596875,"end":12674.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12673.864718750003,"end":12690.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12678.555968750003,"end":12681.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12689.64284375,"end":12696.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12693.13596875,"end":12695.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12695.684093750002,"end":12696.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12696.44346875,"end":12708.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12708.863468750002,"end":12728.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12728.25284375,"end":12729.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12728.97846875,"end":12731.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12731.08784375,"end":12732.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12731.56034375,"end":12733.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12732.977843750003,"end":12745.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12745.85346875,"end":12748.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12748.70534375,"end":12761.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12761.969093750002,"end":12767.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12765.22596875,"end":12768.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12768.550343750001,"end":12770.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12769.91721875,"end":12784.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12781.577843750001,"end":12782.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12784.41284375,"end":12784.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12784.63221875,"end":12797.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12797.37284375,"end":12800.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12799.887218750002,"end":12800.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12800.359718750002,"end":12809.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12803.903468750003,"end":12805.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12809.489093750002,"end":12815.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12816.20534375,"end":12823.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12822.989093750002,"end":12823.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12823.360343750002,"end":12823.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12823.461593750002,"end":12831.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12832.219718750002,"end":12872.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12872.753468750001,"end":12882.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12881.511593750001,"end":12926.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12891.04596875,"end":12891.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12891.974093750003,"end":12893.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12893.290343750003,"end":12894.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12925.757843750001,"end":12926.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12926.297843750002,"end":12926.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12929.132843750001,"end":12974.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12983.250968750002,"end":12985.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12986.44034375,"end":12987.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12993.39284375,"end":13001.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13001.88096875,"end":13009.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13010.26784375,"end":13010.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13010.774093750002,"end":13018.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13020.595343750003,"end":13020.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13020.88221875,"end":13024.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13024.51034375,"end":13024.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13025.97846875,"end":13026.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13026.56909375,"end":13033.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13033.94346875,"end":13034.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13034.41596875,"end":13037.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13038.17909375,"end":13051.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13052.18534375,"end":13052.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13052.97846875,"end":13058.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13059.30659375,"end":13062.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13063.42409375,"end":13071.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13071.86159375,"end":13080.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13080.265343750001,"end":13080.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13080.51846875,"end":13080.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13080.585968750001,"end":13081.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13081.480343750001,"end":13081.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13081.969718750002,"end":13086.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13086.441593750002,"end":13103.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13104.362843750001,"end":13111.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13104.649718750003,"end":13104.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13104.700343750003,"end":13104.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13104.970343750003,"end":13105.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13106.016593750002,"end":13106.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13112.395343750002,"end":13113.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13113.72846875,"end":13114.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13114.403468750003,"end":13116.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13116.968468750001,"end":13118.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13119.027218750001,"end":13121.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13122.18284375,"end":13127.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13127.65034375,"end":13137.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13137.269093750001,"end":13137.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13139.175968750002,"end":13149.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13149.28409375,"end":13149.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13149.469718750002,"end":13161.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13161.653468750003,"end":13211.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13211.97471875,"end":13217.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13218.454718750003,"end":13219.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13219.703468750002,"end":13220.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13220.90159375,"end":13222.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13222.57221875,"end":13228.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13228.984718750002,"end":13233.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13233.372218750003,"end":13234.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13234.97534375,"end":13235.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13235.042843750001,"end":13239.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13240.25721875,"end":13242.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13242.704093750002,"end":13245.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13246.079093750002,"end":13256.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13257.11534375,"end":13257.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13257.97596875,"end":13278.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13278.95159375,"end":13296.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13296.974093750003,"end":13297.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13297.530968750001,"end":13297.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13297.851593750001,"end":13297.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13297.902218750001,"end":13304.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13305.79971875,"end":13337.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13337.96346875,"end":13341.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13341.574718750002,"end":13343.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13344.359093750001,"end":13347.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13347.480968750002,"end":13349.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13350.09659375,"end":13360.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13360.778468750003,"end":13362.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13362.989093750002,"end":13365.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13366.12784375,"end":13373.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13368.524093750002,"end":13368.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13373.50221875,"end":13377.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13377.687218750001,"end":13380.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13380.82596875,"end":13394.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13396.82346875,"end":13397.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13399.101593750001,"end":13407.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13416.90471875,"end":13419.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13419.689093750003,"end":13420.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13428.24471875,"end":13428.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13428.34596875,"end":13428.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13428.56534375,"end":13428.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13428.98721875,"end":13434.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13435.88909375,"end":13437.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13436.749718750001,"end":13437.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13438.015343750001,"end":13438.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13438.386593750001,"end":13439.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13439.652218750001,"end":13439.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13439.83784375,"end":13439.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13439.90534375,"end":13441.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13441.019093750001,"end":13442.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13442.01471875,"end":13454.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13454.92409375,"end":13458.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13458.82221875,"end":13460.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13460.99909375,"end":13468.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13469.284718750001,"end":13496.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13496.43659375,"end":13508.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13508.586593750002,"end":13538.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13538.20221875,"end":13540.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13541.003468750001,"end":13543.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13543.956593750001,"end":13544.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13546.859093750001,"end":13558.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13558.570343750001,"end":13559.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13559.565968750001,"end":13559.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13559.59971875,"end":13559.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13559.785343750002,"end":13661.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13608.48659375,"end":13608.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13660.765343750001,"end":13661.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13661.507843750001,"end":13709.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13709.48346875,"end":13736.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13736.78721875,"end":13747.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13749.88221875,"end":13761.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13770.48659375,"end":13772.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13773.102218750002,"end":13773.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13780.864718750003,"end":13782.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13782.855968750002,"end":13791.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13791.968468750001,"end":13793.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13794.26346875,"end":13795.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13795.782218750002,"end":13800.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13801.23284375,"end":13844.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13845.00659375,"end":13848.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13848.68534375,"end":13854.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13854.38909375,"end":13855.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13855.620968750001,"end":13860.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13860.261593750001,"end":13861.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13863.214718750001,"end":13871.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13872.141593750002,"end":13876.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13876.91721875,"end":13878.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13879.39784375,"end":13880.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13881.11909375,"end":13901.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13902.128468750001,"end":13919.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13920.927218750003,"end":13925.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13924.403468750003,"end":13942.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13943.25284375,"end":13943.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13944.079718750003,"end":13967.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13969.054718750001,"end":13969.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13969.88159375,"end":13975.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13975.399718750003,"end":13975.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13976.192843750003,"end":14012.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14012.929718750001,"end":14027.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14027.594093750002,"end":14029.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14029.011593750001,"end":14031.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14032.032218750002,"end":14075.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14076.02534375,"end":14079.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14079.602843750003,"end":14247.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14248.26846875,"end":14253.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14253.550343750001,"end":14266.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14267.269718750002,"end":14269.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14269.46346875,"end":14270.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14270.88096875,"end":14271.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14271.758468750002,"end":14272.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14272.93971875,"end":14273.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14274.10409375,"end":14275.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14275.58909375,"end":14276.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14277.124718750001,"end":14278.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14277.344093750002,"end":14277.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14278.862843750001,"end":14281.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14281.90034375,"end":14284.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14284.684718750003,"end":14287.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14287.23284375,"end":14288.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14289.224093750003,"end":14293.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14293.61159375,"end":14296.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14296.88534375,"end":14298.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14298.79221875,"end":14305.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14306.16659375,"end":14310.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14311.02659375,"end":14314.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14314.50284375,"end":14318.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14319.160343750002,"end":14328.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14319.39659375,"end":14320.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14328.711593750002,"end":14343.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14342.751593750003,"end":14358.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14359.137218750002,"end":14360.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14361.21284375,"end":14361.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14362.140968750002,"end":14364.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14364.351593750001,"end":14365.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14368.45221875,"end":14370.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14368.75596875,"end":14371.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14373.66659375,"end":14374.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14375.92784375,"end":14380.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14381.277218750001,"end":14383.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14383.53846875,"end":14393.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14394.000968750002,"end":14394.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14394.92909375,"end":14396.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14397.308468750001,"end":14399.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14400.19409375,"end":14401.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14401.544093750003,"end":14403.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14403.99096875,"end":14407.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14407.433468750001,"end":14408.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14409.137843750003,"end":14409.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14410.065968750001,"end":14414.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14414.75721875,"end":14416.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14417.06909375,"end":14419.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14419.81971875,"end":14423.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14423.81909375,"end":14425.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14425.995968750001,"end":14428.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14428.72971875,"end":14428.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14429.590343750002,"end":14430.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14431.125968750002,"end":14432.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14432.83034375,"end":14445.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14445.891593750002,"end":14456.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14457.36659375,"end":14457.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14457.99096875,"end":14458.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14458.109093750001,"end":14458.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14458.159718750001,"end":14458.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14458.29471875,"end":14458.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14458.547843750002,"end":14458.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14460.640343750001,"end":14461.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14462.665343750003,"end":14465.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14475.827843750001,"end":14480.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14480.738468750002,"end":14486.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14486.62784375,"end":14487.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14487.387218750002,"end":14493.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14493.85034375,"end":14495.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14496.246593750002,"end":14496.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14497.79909375,"end":14499.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14499.689093750003,"end":14500.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14500.667843750001,"end":14510.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14510.910968750002,"end":14512.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14512.058468750001,"end":14540.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14540.99909375,"end":14549.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14549.33534375,"end":14563.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14563.223468750002,"end":14563.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14563.76346875,"end":14570.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14570.969093750002,"end":14594.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14594.25659375,"end":14594.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14594.762843750003,"end":14640.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14641.40534375,"end":14649.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14649.589718750001,"end":14652.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14653.032218750002,"end":14660.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14657.38596875,"end":14658.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14660.96346875,"end":14664.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14664.220343750003,"end":14676.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14677.41659375,"end":14679.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14679.880343750003,"end":14681.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14681.90534375,"end":14686.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14686.74846875,"end":14687.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14687.54159375,"end":14704.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14705.125343750002,"end":14705.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14705.564093750003,"end":14712.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14712.65159375,"end":14715.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14715.70596875,"end":14725.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14725.864718750003,"end":14729.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14729.99909375,"end":14739.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14739.80346875,"end":14757.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14758.011593750001,"end":14770.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14771.34284375,"end":14772.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14773.13159375,"end":14774.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14775.477218750002,"end":14775.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14775.848468750002,"end":14776.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14776.050968750002,"end":14776.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14776.13534375,"end":14776.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14776.540343750003,"end":14776.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14776.75971875,"end":14781.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14780.269718750002,"end":14780.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14781.501593750003,"end":14782.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14782.750343750002,"end":14782.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14782.902218750001,"end":14782.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14782.952843750001,"end":14790.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14783.070968750002,"end":14783.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14790.985343750002,"end":14820.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14821.309718750003,"end":14833.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14824.161593750003,"end":14824.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14826.59159375,"end":14826.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14833.03784375,"end":14841.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14834.08409375,"end":14835.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14842.69034375,"end":14848.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14848.79909375,"end":14851.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14851.684718750003,"end":14870.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14870.68596875,"end":14880.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14880.726593750001,"end":14899.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14899.54221875,"end":14901.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14901.21284375,"end":14927.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14927.892218750003,"end":14929.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14930.102843750003,"end":14935.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14935.739093750002,"end":14938.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14938.101593750001,"end":14953.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14954.976593750001,"end":14957.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14958.030968750001,"end":14960.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14960.359718750002,"end":14965.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14967.227843750003,"end":14970.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14970.88971875,"end":14971.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14972.121593750002,"end":14974.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14976.00284375,"end":14976.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14976.036593750003,"end":14976.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14976.05346875,"end":14976.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14976.30659375,"end":14981.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14981.554718750001,"end":14987.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14987.54534375,"end":14996.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14996.860343750002,"end":15000.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15001.112843750001,"end":15025.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15025.497218750003,"end":15027.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15027.977843750003,"end":15029.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15029.766593750002,"end":15033.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15032.820968750002,"end":15043.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15034.37346875,"end":15034.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15035.26784375,"end":15035.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15043.620968750001,"end":15048.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15048.29534375,"end":15050.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15050.489093750002,"end":15053.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15053.77971875,"end":15072.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15072.899093750002,"end":15074.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15074.60346875,"end":15075.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15076.172843750002,"end":15079.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15080.189093750003,"end":15093.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15094.43159375,"end":15094.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15094.44846875,"end":15095.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15095.477843750003,"end":15098.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15099.527843750002,"end":15119.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15099.696593750003,"end":15100.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15120.047843750002,"end":15121.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15121.262843750003,"end":15122.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15122.849093750003,"end":15123.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15126.966593750003,"end":15127.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15127.219718750002,"end":15127.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15127.50659375,"end":15131.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15143.95971875,"end":15151.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15149.781593750002,"end":15150.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15152.02596875,"end":15152.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15153.004718750002,"end":15154.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15155.856593750003,"end":15156.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15156.83534375,"end":15157.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15158.438468750002,"end":15161.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15161.425343750001,"end":15168.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15169.035968750002,"end":15171.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15172.00596875,"end":15172.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15172.05659375,"end":15176.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15176.562218750001,"end":15178.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15178.82346875,"end":15180.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15182.67096875,"end":15191.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15187.328468750002,"end":15187.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15191.867843750002,"end":15210.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15200.153468750003,"end":15200.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15210.76784375,"end":15218.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15219.036593750003,"end":15238.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15222.664718750002,"end":15223.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15225.719093750002,"end":15225.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15225.972218750001,"end":15225.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15225.989093750002,"end":15226.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15234.780968750001,"end":15234.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15234.81471875,"end":15235.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15236.789093750001,"end":15237.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15239.10096875,"end":15243.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15242.30721875,"end":15244.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15244.88909375,"end":15244.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15244.922843750002,"end":15258.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15258.43971875,"end":15261.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15261.949718750002,"end":15267.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15268.227218750002,"end":15271.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15271.905968750001,"end":15296.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15296.89784375,"end":15299.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15299.969093750002,"end":15312.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15312.591593750003,"end":15315.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15319.155968750001,"end":15338.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15338.359718750002,"end":15348.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15349.446593750003,"end":15355.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15355.335968750001,"end":15356.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15356.770343750002,"end":15372.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15372.02534375,"end":15393.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15393.726593750001,"end":15405.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15406.011593750001,"end":15413.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15413.183468750001,"end":15417.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15416.28846875,"end":15416.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15416.305343750002,"end":15422.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15422.481593750003,"end":15422.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15422.515343750001,"end":15422.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15423.02159375,"end":15428.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15428.657843750003,"end":15431.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15431.644718750002,"end":15460.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15460.129718750002,"end":15460.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15460.804718750001,"end":15460.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15460.83846875,"end":15462.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15462.30659375,"end":15472.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15464.01096875,"end":15464.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15472.785968750002,"end":15474.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15474.827843750001,"end":15478.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15478.742843750002,"end":15485.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15485.50971875,"end":15485.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15485.762843750003,"end":15487.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15487.31534375,"end":15492.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15492.52971875,"end":15500.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15501.13596875,"end":15521.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15521.01471875,"end":15527.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15527.69721875,"end":15530.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15530.71784375,"end":15531.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15541.399718750003,"end":15567.707843750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1484.384,"end":1506.839,"text":"報告委員會初席委員13人已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第一次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國115年3月11日星期三上午96分至99分"},{"start":1509.553,"end":1534.072,"text":"議點 紅蘿301會議室出席委員陳永康等15人 主席馬偉榮 文君報告四 想依本院人事處體報院會官員立法院第11屆第5會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間地點表夜經本院第11屆第5會期第一次會議決定照案通過二 宣讀本院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會召集委員選舉人名單"},{"start":1536.535,"end":1559.719,"text":"選舉四項選舉本院第十一屆第五會期本會召集委員案主席宣告依中國國民黨民主進步黨黨團之書面推舉及台灣民眾黨王委員安詳對推選方式之書面同意推選馬委員文君陳委員冠廷二人為本院第十一屆第五會期本會召集委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":1564.271,"end":1589.717,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤需要更正之處沒有我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告借鏡近期美國與伊朗衝突檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能低成本難解手段及無人機反制能量並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1596.089,"end":1620.922,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員羅美玲羅委員以及國防部今天顧部長因有其他要事請假我們現在有副部長鍾樹民鍾副部長"},{"start":1623.649,"end":1645.996,"text":"副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃上將曹次長楊基榮楊長次全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長動員署為什麼是那個"},{"start":1649.5,"end":1650.02,"text":"書長請教嗎他有時間講嗎"},{"start":1695.353,"end":1723.382,"text":"全民防衛動員署執行長林淳美林執行長總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文榮石參事政務辦公室孫立芳孫主任政治作戰局史順文史局長軍備局林文祥林局長"},{"start":1725.305,"end":1753.371,"text":"主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長軍醫局 陳元浩 陳局長戰略規劃司 黃文綺 黃司長資源規劃司 藍靜婷 藍司長法律事務司 吳義勝 吳司長整合評估司 苗慧芬 苗司長國防採購司 趙雅萍 趙主任"},{"start":1754.878,"end":1777.905,"text":"人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長"},{"start":1785.213,"end":1811.834,"text":"陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵泉參謀長憲兵指揮部文念忠參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長"},{"start":1814.085,"end":1828.671,"text":"軍事情報局李永康 李執行長電訊發展室林政委 林執行長國防大學李承忠 李教育長國家中山科學研究院李士強 李院長"},{"start":1836.016,"end":1864.449,"text":"今天顧部長也特別請教其實剛剛開會議剛剛開始之前還有很多委員就我們還沒有排特別條例的這個部分說了很多的意見那如果像今天這樣連部長都來不了我相信很重要的特別條例大概也沒有辦法審所以我們也希望有很多委員在發言的時候也可以理解部長"},{"start":1865.109,"end":1874.638,"text":"如果自己的就是都沒有理解這樣的理由我相信可以稍微了解一下我們相關的規定尤其像我們在禮拜三選完召委禮拜四我們通常依規會給兩天的時間讓相關的單位去做資料的準備所以像隔天要排審大概也是不太可能"},{"start":1888.972,"end":1903.722,"text":"所以這個部分我們邀請有些委員在發言的時候也可以理解我們相關的一些規定那本日會議邀請國防部報告接近近期美國與伊朗衝突檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能低成本攔截手段以及無人機反制能量並被質詢現在請中副部長上台報告"},{"start":1927.796,"end":1953.813,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天應邀到大院的委員會進行專案的報告承蒙各位委員對國防安全的關切以及指導在此表達誠摯的謝意那近期中東地區安全的情勢持續受到關注從美伊軍事衝突當中可以發現未來的戰爭形態已經朝向彈道飛彈巡弋飛彈遠程火箭"},{"start":1957.395,"end":1977.373,"text":"以及各型有無人機同步運用形成更加多元的整體戰場威脅使各國防空以及飛彈體系面臨到嚴峻的挑戰那本次的專案報告借盡每一的衝突精進我整體防空的作戰效能並且結合"},{"start":1978.294,"end":2005.051,"text":"低成本攔截的手段以及建立無人機反制能量來建構台灣之盾的高中低空城的嚴密防空火網來確保國人生命財產的安全後續由作戰及計劃參謀次長次長連志威中將就我國防空反配戰系統的效能以及低成本攔截手段無人機反制能量向各位委員實施報告謝謝"},{"start":2014.977,"end":2029.409,"text":"主席 各位委員先進我是作息室次長接續由我就借鏡近期美國與伊朗衝突檢討我國防空反飛彈系統效能低成本攔截手段及無人機反制能量專案報告"},{"start":2030.592,"end":2049.561,"text":"首先前言 近期中東地區的衝突升溫美國及以色列於2月28日對伊朗發起死屍怒火聯合軍事行動空襲伊朗首都德黑蘭 政軍高層的官邸 指揮中心以及重要的軍事設施伊朗革命衛隊隨即展開大規模報復"},{"start":2053.025,"end":2058.61,"text":"對以色列及中東周邊國家境內的美軍基地、民生及關鍵設施進行反擊"},{"start":2061.055,"end":2082.05,"text":"本次軍事衝突除美伊兩國運用戰機、巡弋飛彈及無人機實施空襲外伊朗向以色列及其周邊國家以彈道飛彈、巡弋飛彈及無人機發動混合攻勢顯示反飛彈及無人機的反制能力已成為防空及整體飛彈防禦系統的重要課題"},{"start":2085.029,"end":2110.227,"text":"在防空反飛彈系統效能因應中共多波次多彈種的空中威脅形態並持續以彈道飛彈與遠程火箭加大對我民生及軍事威嚇的力度國軍依總統指導在既有防空能力基礎上打造台灣之盾建構台灣分層防禦高度感知有效攔截的嚴密防空系統"},{"start":2111.187,"end":2133.299,"text":"為台灣編織保護國人生命財產安全的防護網國軍規劃編列軍事投資及特別預算以自主研發及多元途徑採購的方式逐年籌貨戰場管理系統、感測器以及發射器並串聯國造自製與國外採購之各式系統"},{"start":2134.119,"end":2149.841,"text":"建構全方位、多層次以及整合式防護台灣地區重要處所與設施之空中及飛彈防禦體系整建重點在處如此首先國軍以建制長程預警雷達及多元監偵系統"},{"start":2151.303,"end":2169.158,"text":"早期預警威脅與追蹤,縮短空中威脅告警的反應時間使防空部隊及早完成攔截準備,增加攔截成功率並規劃籌獲新式機動雷達,強化徵收能力以及戰場存活率2."},{"start":2169.158,"end":2173.862,"text":"客鎮規劃籌獲中科院研製之天弓式型中程反彈系統"},{"start":2175.203,"end":2193.585,"text":"結合NASEN、愛國者等防空飛彈系統並積極籌獲低成本反火箭防空系統建構高中低層分層防禦重層攔截的防空火網同時執行系統整合、分散部署以強化攔截的效能"},{"start":2194.482,"end":2216.587,"text":"第三為提升整體接戰效能規劃引進高科技與AI的人工智慧之戰場管理系統以整合各式防空武器及感測器可快速鑒別威脅種類並依防空資源提供接戰建議縮短決策以及增加系統反應時間有效攔截來襲目標以適應未來的戰爭形態"},{"start":2219.997,"end":2244.751,"text":"第三是低成本攔截的手段從近期國際衝突與戰爭實力大規模遠程火箭與無人機等低成本武器廣泛運用已成為新型態的攻擊模式造成整體空防壓力國軍運用國防預算籌建台灣之盾防空系統並借國防科技發展低成本防空飛彈來強化國軍戰力防護以及維持整體社會韌性"},{"start":2249.807,"end":2272.778,"text":"台灣之盾的防空系統是採高中低三成防禦體系來建置為避免招敵運用大量低價武器消耗防空飛彈針對遠程火箭的威脅將在現有飛彈技術基礎上研製以及籌貨可執行遠程火箭彈攔截之低成本防空武器"},{"start":2273.638,"end":2297.137,"text":"建立適切的防禦能量確保防衛作戰韌性並維護民眾生命產產安全令同步籌購及部署右標假目標衛星定位干擾系統以及威脅信號產生器等7敵干擾之被動防禦手段來降低敵遠程火箭攻擊的損害第四是無人機的反制能量"},{"start":2298.612,"end":2320.739,"text":"因應現代戰場中小型無人機廣泛的運用並對戰局造成重大的影響以烏俄戰爭為例戰場上每月使用高達18萬餘架的各式無人機造成防空系統迫切的壓力故各國均將反制無人機系統的研製列為重要發展項目"},{"start":2321.916,"end":2338.514,"text":"為避免中共無人機的襲擾消耗我防空資源並維護人民安全及部隊戰力國軍積極籌建無人機反制能量同時採取主動反制、被動防禦的因應措施並持續引進新興科技"},{"start":2339.375,"end":2362.764,"text":"提升反制無人機的效能來強化防衛韌性說明如下首先在主動反制部分本部前以建案遙控無人機防禦系統來防護機場重要指揮所等固定設施達成有效預警先期防組的效能並配合地面守備部隊區域聯防的機制以及通聯手段確保設施安全"},{"start":2363.624,"end":2386.35,"text":"另外考量暫時部隊機動安全防護以變息性、輕量化及操作檢疫等需求籌購地面部隊無人機反制系統另規劃籌獲可吸式及先進無人機反制等系統來建立指揮所、防空、雷達陣地等重要軍事設施及裝備之反制無人機能力"},{"start":2387.352,"end":2402.526,"text":"第二是在被動防禦因無人機的威脅具備低成本數量多與運用彈性高的特性若僅依賴主動反制的方式亦造成大量防空資源的消耗因此國軍借盡烏俄戰長經驗強化假目標的設置"},{"start":2406.889,"end":2425.761,"text":"偽裝遮障 煙幕掩護 防護網的搭設頂蓋防護 掩體加固 出戰配置及機動轉移等作為降低敵攻擊的效益維持指揮管制與關鍵設施運作 確保作戰的韌性第三是引進新興的科技"},{"start":2426.786,"end":2455.847,"text":"考量無人機的導控、抗干擾、避障、自動導航人工智慧、巡峰技術以及反無人機之雷射與高能微波等科技快速更迭持續透過國防創新小組引進最新反制無人機的科技並藉由國際產業交流及合作鏈接國內外商業市場成熟技術採小批量採購測試方式持續提升無人機的反制能量"},{"start":2456.607,"end":2478.275,"text":"最後國軍持續運用國防及特別預算籌獲新式防空武器低成本攔截武器以及無人機反制系統以建構台灣之盾整體防空系統朝符合防衛作戰需求強化全民防衛信心以及展現維護區域安全決心的三個面向全力發展"},{"start":2479.595,"end":2494.71,"text":"懇請委員支持特別預算的編列以及國軍各項武器採購建案以建立維持和平穩定之實力持續為捍衛國土家園守護人民福祉努力以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指導謝謝"},{"start":2500.962,"end":2517.375,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請中副部長請副部長"},{"start":2537.15,"end":2542.532,"text":"美國聯手以色列大規模轟炸伊朗的黑藍雖然說伊朗的防空系統有結合中國的遠征"},{"start":2553.416,"end":2568.151,"text":"预警雷达甚至俄罗斯的S300的防空系统甚至伊朗自己本身也有研发了巴瓦尔373的防空系统等等可是我们看到面对美军的大规模的空袭可以说"},{"start":2569.713,"end":2578.357,"text":"伊朗是毫無這個招架之力那所以也顯示了像中國啦俄羅斯跟伊朗他們的這個防空系統的整合是出了這個問題喔那我們台灣的目前有這個美制的愛國者飛彈還有這個我們自己自製的這個天宮系列飛彈還有我們各式防空雷達"},{"start":2587.421,"end":2599.808,"text":"那如果說我們在面對這個敵方飛彈跟無人機飽和攻擊或是電子干擾情況之下目前我們的防空系統整體的運作任性是否還是有很多不足的地方這部分能簡單說明一下嗎"},{"start":2601.6,"end":2624.995,"text":"我跟委員報告然後後續假設不足的部分我再請次長做個說明那第一個部分是我們現在的防空系統他已經有建置了長期的預警雷達能夠縮短整個空中威脅告警的時間那第二個目前來說整個防空系統整體運作上面是沒有問題的但是我們從近期的從俄烏戰爭到"},{"start":2626.816,"end":2650.747,"text":"最近的伊朗跟以色列還有美軍的這一個作戰當中我們可以發現到防空系統在後續整體的運作韌性以及戰場管理系統是一件非常重要的事情所以就現在我們為什麼要建造這一個台灣之盾非常重要一件事情是我們希望把整個我們所有的防空系統能夠做一個有效的整合能夠達到一個分層防禦"},{"start":2652.228,"end":2663.457,"text":"高效的感知以及有效攔截所以這也是委員所提示我們希望在運作任性上面能夠做另外一個高度的強化這是我們目前在做的事情"},{"start":2664.229,"end":2680.117,"text":"OK那再來一點就是說我們在這個伊朗的這個線上我們看到就是說其實這個電子戰是非常重要的不是只有這個印刷其實像軟刷的部分其實也是非常的重要那之前呢我有看到這個媒體報導就是說我們的台美軍國當中我們可能會引進這個美國"},{"start":2685.599,"end":2695.685,"text":"最先進的這個IBCS系統來做這個合作這部分呢我們有做過相關的這個磋商嗎我們跟美方這邊有談到這個部分的這個系統的引進嗎"},{"start":2698.488,"end":2718.707,"text":"當然現在IBCS跟其他的戰場管理系統是我們現在的選項之一那這一個部分後續如果有必要我們在委員的辦公室再跟委員詳細做個說明因為他目前來說只是在做一個評估以及相關的這一個當然也是我們的選項之一"},{"start":2719.335,"end":2735.804,"text":"美方有在做評估就是說在跟美方有做相關的一個研究跟有做這方面的研究所以這部分的話後續的話細節的部分呃到水國防部會大本席辦公室來做一個說明嘛就是這裡這不方便做細節的透露是不是"},{"start":2736.464,"end":2761.642,"text":"OK 好了解那當然我們有看到就是說今天我們國防部的這個報告裡面有提到不管我們要做怎麼樣的一個建制來講比如說我們國軍已經有建制了長城這個預警雷達啦或是多元的這個監偵系統或是說我們現在正在要規劃籌獲的中科院研製的天宮四型中程反飛彈系統"},{"start":2763.143,"end":2781.957,"text":"或者是未來我們規劃要引進高科技的AI人工智慧的戰場管理系統等等我想這些都是要屬於中長程的規劃甚至更是需要預算的支持我在想國防特別條例很快我們就要來做審查"},{"start":2783.678,"end":2801.729,"text":"我想很快我們國防外交委員會很快就要來做排定可是呢剛剛我們所提到的不管是這個防空系統的建置或者是說這個總總剛剛我們所提到的報告所提到的總總的所有的這個裝備的這個設置都需要這個預算來"},{"start":2806.752,"end":2834.248,"text":"那我們也提到就是說其實在我們防空系統方面其實我們還有很多需要去做加強的部分尤其看到這個伊朗這次面對中國的這個伊朗在面對美國的這個強烈的砲轟毫無招架之力更是讓我們覺得這個防空系統建制的這個重要性可是呢我們看到這個各個版本的國防特別條例我們來看一下國民黨的版本也好或是民眾黨團的這個版本也好"},{"start":2835.589,"end":2864.088,"text":"我們發現行政院版裡面所提到的防空反彈道及反裝甲飛彈裡面防空系統的部分還有反彈道系統的部分其實已經被他們拿掉了被他們拿掉了這跟今天的這個題目其實有很大的這個反差我想我們的主席今天會排這個題目其實也是看到這個伊朗面對美國的這個砲轟其實在防空系統方面需要有很多加強的這個地方"},{"start":2864.668,"end":2892.754,"text":"可是很可惜的就是說國民黨團的這個國防特別條例民眾黨團的特別條例裡面把防空系統跟反彈道全部都拿掉了只留下反裝甲飛彈反裝甲無人機飛彈系統的這個部分這部分的部分國防部需要特別再說明一下嗎現在被國民黨團跟民眾黨團拿掉了對整個防空系統來講的話是不是有很大的一個危機這個部分要不要再說明一下"},{"start":2893.977,"end":2894.647,"text":"這部份請站位"},{"start":2897.342,"end":2923.862,"text":"我們這邊要向委員報告一下我們整個軍事投資的規劃是依照我們的計畫預算制度來的所以不論哪一個版本我們都必須要符合我們的計畫預算制度才有辦法執行我們現在的所有的項目不是只有項目跟金額而已我們在前面都已經耗了很冗長的時間去完成我們的建案文件整理獲得規劃書那"},{"start":2926.244,"end":2949.351,"text":"接下來才是完成我們的預算書表那這兩個項目其實在去年的時候都已經奉行政院核定了也就是說這些所有的規劃項目他都已經在我們完整的計畫預算制度的範圍之內如果沒有辦法符合的話勢必造成我們後面所有的文件必須重修尤其在需求段落的部分"},{"start":2950.495,"end":2973.789,"text":"如果只有看到金額,看不到需求,我們整個計畫勢必被完全打亂。這個部分是第一個嚴重的問題。第二個問題是,我們在需求端,事實上包含了很大成分的整合,是放在我們的商購跟偽製案裡面。委員知道AI人工智慧技術的變化是非常快的。"},{"start":2974.369,"end":2990.25,"text":"如果說我們今天用一個比較僵化的軍售去購買的話很容易造成我們東西拿到之後到後面還要花很大的力氣跟很大的金額去更改所以在這個規劃的部分我們"},{"start":2991.272,"end":3007.551,"text":"針對商員已經去做過很多的調查以及討論包含國內外所以這個部分也希望委員能夠支持我們在這個部分就系統整合上面跟我們作戰需求上面已經做了長期的評估以及對於我們未來的展望跟需求"},{"start":3008.98,"end":3011.663,"text":"OK 我在想這部分我之前有看過顧立雄這個部長曾經提到就是說像國民黨的版本也好或民眾黨的版本看起來這個所謂操盤手在寫這些條例的這些操守"},{"start":3026.316,"end":3049.27,"text":"應該是都沒有來開過我們的這個機密會議我們的國防的這個委員會的這個會議所以寫出了一些非常荒腔走板的一些版本那當然本席有看到民眾黨的這個版本真的是非常的可笑應該說是因為國防特別條例它是法案但是法案跟預算案是傻傻分不清所以它把這個金額然後還有這個件數套件等等全部都寫進這個法律案裡面"},{"start":3053.553,"end":3067.09,"text":"當然也看得出來呢他們對這個對這個編列這個所謂的預算或是法案這部分是完全搞不清楚狀況那再來我當然如果說有仔細的了解國防部來聽過國防來參加過我們國防委員會"},{"start":3069.673,"end":3092.325,"text":"其實會覺得說國民黨團的版本跟民眾黨團的版本真的是天馬行空甚至把很多重要的一些我們系統性的建制或者是一些我們要跟美方共同研發的一些裝備跟系統其實全部都拿掉了那剛剛我也看到我們的題目有提到我們如何來建制這個所謂低成本"},{"start":3092.925,"end":3121.896,"text":"那高效率的一些裝備其實像這無人載具跟其反制系統在我們的國防特別條例第三條裡面有特別提到可是我在國民黨的版本跟民眾黨的版本裡面這部分也是被拿掉的所以說今天的題目其實跟我們的行政院的國防特別條例其實這個題目應該是來支持行政院的版本才對可是很可惜的就是說國民黨的版本跟民眾黨的版本是反其道而行"},{"start":3122.296,"end":3130.103,"text":"我在想下個禮拜我們應該還會進入到這個審議的這部分跟組條的部分我也希望說在野黨的委員能夠審慎然後理性的來審議這個條例因為這對國家的安全來講是非常的重要"},{"start":3138.571,"end":3157.5,"text":"這些那也希望就是說經過今天然後呢這個下個禮拜的這個我們對這個國防特別條例的討論能夠讓朝野政黨的能夠來進入理性的這個檢討我想這個對國家的安全來講這是非常重要的這個程序好以上謝謝謝謝委員接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3183.857,"end":3202.467,"text":"主席有請中副部長請副部長陳委員好副部長早這個禮拜五下班前才收到我們國防部今天報告的文件"},{"start":3204.006,"end":3217.502,"text":"所以,因為非常重視,所以我禮拜六就在辦公室把整個的文件逐漬消化,再反思當初盧列這些文件敘述的背景"},{"start":3218.41,"end":3247.314,"text":"那么我们今天把它全部用逻辑方块图显示我这边对有些地方是要强调有些地方没有涵盖的我们要强化那么有些有努力在做的但是可能理想很高时间上配合不上那至于谈到预算的问题等一下我再跟您请益我们先看一下这个我们先检讨国军防空的能量"},{"start":3249.281,"end":3273.696,"text":"準備的方向防衛的目標防衛的方法防衛的手段最重要的是要檢討反思就逆向思考我們精準的防衛是指盾精準的句子是矛但是現在呢我們跟矛跟盾之間呢是把它混在一起了比方講防衛目標雷達站衛星站指管中心關鍵所儲存庫地下化加固型機動式"},{"start":3275.197,"end":3299.429,"text":"那麼拒止目標呢要防對方的遠海火箭平潭島的無人機部隊消耗戰另外就是我們要做電站的圍籬能夠干擾北斗無人機的風群反制攻擊載具最後啊我們講到的韌性啊不是光復國防部是包括社會的韌性我們看看這次"},{"start":3301.82,"end":3330.02,"text":"伊朗啊就是他雖然防空的能力被摧毀了他反制他打的以色列是什麼打的美國是什麼在這個中央指揮部的指揮中心第五艦隊的通訊站那麼同時把以色列的幾個重要部門電廠啦進水廠啦這些東西都做了一個破壞所以我們反制的能力啊我這邊特別提出啊就是幾個建議是紅字啊那如何"},{"start":3331.876,"end":3343.402,"text":"爭取教家的決策與智囊的行動那這裡面的結構流程我們會後把一些工程的東西流程提供您這邊做參考"},{"start":3346.394,"end":3369.876,"text":"那麼建制反制能量自治優先軍商各為輔當然自動化很多主導的系統通訊遙控國外有現成的可以國內能發展有我們也接受希望建立共同圖像因為共同的圖像並不是在指揮中心而是在政府不同的機構地方政府"},{"start":3371.104,"end":3391.074,"text":"比方講我們在開會的時候這次俄烏的俄國抱歉是這個美國跟伊朗啊這中間因為烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.7倍伊朗的面積是台灣的45倍所以領土不同目標分散不同你如果沒有一個精準的標註啊"},{"start":3393.195,"end":3406.205,"text":"將來對戰地損傷哪些地方要調節哪些地方要強化不是純粹國軍的指管中心這個東西我們後面有做出建議提到台灣之盾我們當然支持目的方法手段"},{"start":3407.29,"end":3426.29,"text":"預期現況那建立一個一體化的系統那最主要現在還在評估IBCSIBCS是陸軍的系統那在我們國家要把空軍現有的公三強攻還有空軍的環網要整合進去這個是美國的不同廠商的"},{"start":3427.251,"end":3446.299,"text":"資料庫跟他的介面那尤其是我們中科院有些介面跟他們不同這個大家努力我們是支持這個理想但是絕對不是說用一個簡單的想法我們有時間但是預算夠不夠他不是放在特別條例之內強調的因為原先啟動這個構想的時候"},{"start":3448.22,"end":3456.957,"text":"國防部完全沒有向我們在野黨做報告那也就是說你們有細部的研究但是報告的時間太晚到去年底前都沒有"},{"start":3457.762,"end":3481.05,"text":"那各位看一下這是空軍自動化防空的系統我們從天網到強網到環網到環展它的背景的美國外商公司都換了那有些是現在可以借接有些未來還要努力尤其是現在中科院的強工跟這個美方要做借接那將來有很大的共同合作跟努力的空間那這個提供建議"},{"start":3482.472,"end":3493.548,"text":"那么整体作战的系统这个IBCS现在还在做评估它有很好的能力但有很多的限制因素我们讲限制因素这里面各位看一下红色的延幕"},{"start":3494.738,"end":3522.584,"text":"高度通信網路依賴因為我們舉個例來講我們政府說我們的海嵐中段有70個衛星點站那個能力非常有限那個是one web商用衛星會被蓋台的所以不能夠想像中就說我只要商用的備援就可以解決你還要靠其他的機動的這個微波或者中繼台或者是軍用的頻道這個我們跟美方合作另外再談"},{"start":3523.649,"end":3550.914,"text":"那能不能够共同开发能够不能够共同操作这个界面呢要中科院要扮演非常大的角色几乎要全程参与啊那这个我们看一下这个我们就把它拆开来了啊IBCS是一个很好的系统但是要把它整体的整合进来三军呢里面还要共同努力因为整个在太空的武器我们没有这个能力中轨低轨卫星频道有限"},{"start":3552.691,"end":3562.461,"text":"所以你現在看左邊的圖這是一個4億的雷達範圍圖可是你要把你周遭的範圍不只是防空識別區包括友邦包括比方講這個"},{"start":3564.943,"end":3587.372,"text":"我們講馬六甲海峽一直到南海到巴士海峽到宮古海峽這個地方我們都要能夠掌握那右邊這個圖啊就是講左端是我們的徵收器右端是你的武器端包括天弓強弓未來的海馬斯包括NASA各種遠程還有我們的配炮雷達機動雷達所以"},{"start":3590.493,"end":3607.891,"text":"C5ISR還加上T這個T是targeting平常對定點目標我們的情報分析都有排序但是臨時有重要的對方的機動性的目標你這個時候三個軍種不同的偵測器你要"},{"start":3608.792,"end":3633.351,"text":"比对交产生聚焦这个时候啊你的时间很有限比方讲海马斯可以打很远机动鱼叉也很远但是这两个系统中间怎么做沟通所以不只是中科院介入装备整合包括我们的国防大学的职餐教育的图教学都要改进所以我们看到的是一个复合型的东西各位看这边啊"},{"start":3634.468,"end":3641.917,"text":"这个支持国军强化战力赖总统讲我们要继续支持但有一点我提出这个比例不同"},{"start":3644.521,"end":3651.305,"text":"日本的這個國防預算1.8兆但他總預算26兆所以只佔7%那麼韓國的這個國防預算是1.4兆總預算16兆只佔9%但是因為我們的總預算只有3兆目前國防的預算加特別條例加起來已經佔了30%所以不是在野黨在這裡面去"},{"start":3672.81,"end":3699.031,"text":"不支持而是说你的优秀一个整合过程中间我们更要努力所以台湾之盾不是一个概念的盾就像总统讲的但是这里面有很多的界面要三个军种甚至跟中科院跟国内产业要共同来努力整合谈到了美国跟伊朗的战争你发现打到的通通都是"},{"start":3700.182,"end":3719.321,"text":"民間的設施煉油廠電網以及高科技的運算中心這幅圖就是把我們社會韌性所有的結果用AI去把你的關聯性做出來這個圖只是表層它一共有三層我們也可以協助第一個優先是什麼就是電網"},{"start":3720.612,"end":3749.17,"text":"我们17个超高压配电站沿着台海台湾西部如果被打了跳电了你72小时恢复不了医院崩盘社会崩盘这个时候跟非但打多少没有必然的直接关联防御很重要这个电网啊能源啊广播系统啊医疗系统这个是非常重要这个他要做成网络架构那我们政府呢是政府的核心任务是用叙述式的"},{"start":3749.95,"end":3771.916,"text":"各個看他這個五個他是獨立從上到下但是沒有橫向的聯繫這張圖套了五層圖伊朗德黑蘭首都最後伊朗的神學的領導人士被集中的位置都可以校準校正出來"},{"start":3772.984,"end":3800.321,"text":"那请问我们对于人家的借镜有没有采用这个相同方法这个是伊朗南部的那个小学女生的学校被打了死了165个各位看左上图小学军营应该是雾籍这是这个战斧飞弹打的所以我们可以利用GIS AIS还有很多的校正卫星图可以把这个做出来"},{"start":3801.26,"end":3823.942,"text":"那這個就是所謂的這個這個叫做什麼叫叫做這個哈爾克島那目前美方打的是他的機場跑道跟旁邊的指揮那我們用及時的情資也做套疊讓大家可以看到有共同圖像是在戰略判斷跟"},{"start":3825.408,"end":3844.684,"text":"軍事行動過程中間的一個重要橋樑所以國防部現在已經在推動J-COP但並不是在指揮中心而是在長官開會的時候在討論重要國際情勢的時候這個現象要顯示出來我最後用一張圖給各位看這是今天早上七點鐘"},{"start":3847.246,"end":3869.202,"text":"這個荷姆茲海峽的荷姆茲海峽進口的地方有伊朗的領海也有阿聯酋的領海中間的公海部分非常少所以說他並不叫封鎖他可以關閉我的領海你跟我友好你可以無害通過你不友好我就不讓你進來所以現在今天早上我們點選的幾個船的目標都是"},{"start":3870.219,"end":3899.859,"text":"伊朗自己进出阿联酋进出那么另外呢有印度的啊透过其他方法跟他沟通把挂齐那在这个软体上面呢你可以点选进去有付钱的啊你可以回溯哪一天哪个时间哪个目标都可以看出来这个部分的图啊我们会提供这个这个海军啊那请大海局在这个方面呢强化套叠也提供国防部做参考我以上做的建议啊请副部长啊您您做一个参考"},{"start":3901.159,"end":3927.831,"text":"是謝謝委員剛剛很明確的一個指導那剛剛委員所指導部門後續在台灣之盾的一個研討上面會納入參考第二個部分是我們從去年開始10月份就已經成立了有關台灣之盾的專案辦公室那剛剛委員所指導相關的選項其實都是在我們的評估跟實際在研討當中那後續有一些確實的進度會也會跟委員做一個詳細的說明"},{"start":3929.485,"end":3949.115,"text":"好那这次在伊朗的状况伊朗本身的防空被摧毁可是他反击力量造成以色列巨大的损伤那这个部分就证明了即便是铁穹因为你的飞弹数量是有限的你就算是有几百枚几千枚对这种大批的无人机的耗损"},{"start":3950.115,"end":3971.103,"text":"那无人机我想中科院在干扰部分现在已经在强化那有一部分绝对不是用弹去打而且就是目前的快炮甚至用这个雷射干扰比方讲1000瓦一公里范围内的这种我想中科院都在努力做这个部分可以抵消很多而不是用产生多少枚飞弹去拦截多少"},{"start":3971.843,"end":3985.824,"text":"这个进犯的这个远程火箭因为我们的数量是永远不够那另外就是维护整合所有的侦测装备三军的装备讯号要通联这个还有努力的空间"},{"start":3987.046,"end":4010.436,"text":"是 就是所以我們在報告當中也特別對目前中共的一個原火營包含到剛剛委員所指導的PHRO動山以上的一個原火系統我們後續為研製籌貨相關攔截的低成本的防空武器希望能夠同步來建置防空的一個能量也納入我們的研究參考希望大家共同努力謝謝謝謝委員指導"},{"start":4015.603,"end":4019.025,"text":"謝謝 接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請中副部長請副部長副部長早"},{"start":4040.24,"end":4069.173,"text":"陳委員早在今年這個二月底中東地區爆發這場代號死屍之怒的軍事行動美國以涉獵聯軍在短短24小時之內精準的打擊伊朗境內上千個重要目標甚至成功的斬首伊朗的最高領袖及多位的國防高層那我想這不但展現了現代戰爭中這種情報滲透與精準打擊的一個重要性"},{"start":4069.893,"end":4083.046,"text":"更作為我們接下來要建構防禦體系一個實戰環境下的一個經驗參考根據報導指出美軍在這一次針對伊朗的這個空襲之中實際應用AI系統的一個進行"},{"start":4086.589,"end":4112.615,"text":"戰術決策的資源那這些系統能夠在數分鐘之內運用海量的這個數據生成多套的作戰方案將原本需要數個小時的這個情報判讀與決策壓縮到僅需一分鐘之內就能夠精準的同步打擊並且這個美軍不但精算伊朗重要設施的這個變動甚至能夠透過AI辨識"},{"start":4114.355,"end":4129.72,"text":"哈米尼車隊的移動軌跡完成了精準的打擊任務而國防部在這次的專題報告當中也有提到我們除了打造台灣之盾之外也規劃要引進高科技與AI人工智慧"},{"start":4130.36,"end":4157.715,"text":"的這種戰場管理系統來整合我們防空資源快速的鑑別威脅並提供接戰的建議那我想請教副部長我們如何借盡美軍在這一次戰場上使用的這個效率規劃在我們作戰中運用AI那又應該要如何來防範中共的這種干擾或滲透確保我們AI系統是可信並且能夠穩定的運作"},{"start":4159.68,"end":4182.018,"text":"第一個部分首先非常感謝委員的指導第一個部分是國防部今年在1月份就已經成立了整個AI人工智慧專案的辦公室那這個專案辦公室呢就希望能夠導入看到未來的戰爭趨勢希望能夠引進高科技的AI人工智慧的一個戰場的一個管理系統"},{"start":4182.999,"end":4211.072,"text":"當然我們在1.25兆的特別預算裡面也特別編列有關AI輔助跟CYSR的一個系統這中間也包含到人工智慧的決策資源系統以及戰術網路還有部隊快速情勢分享的運用套件這都在我們這個規劃當中所以從這整個美伊戰爭當中國防部也看到相關未來戰爭一個發展情勢所以這個人工智慧是我們未來發展的一個重點"},{"start":4211.772,"end":4227.851,"text":"那第二個部分是有關這個防空整合跟抵抗這個電子干擾的部分而這個部分我們除了運用各式的電子徵收系統來實施威脅的預警之外另外也會運用所有被動式的防護措施跟戰術作為來施因因為目前"},{"start":4228.652,"end":4257.583,"text":"整個對方的一個電子干擾它可以區分到太空空中以及陸上的部分那目前來看是空中的這個電子干擾威脅是比較大的包含到它的千磁流跟雲巴相關的電子干擾看起來是威脅最大那這個部分在超波本部它有相關也有因應的劇本那第三個部分有關攔截低成本的這個無人機的部分我們現在這個主動跟被動的防禦都已經有在做了"},{"start":4258.203,"end":4277.336,"text":"所以目前在各機場固定設施有這個辦到自動的防空干擾槍以及這個自動反制的系統目前都在建置當中第二個部分是未來我們也會發展低成本的一個防空武器來避免在對應敵人低成本的這一個"},{"start":4278.777,"end":4293.19,"text":"攻擊的時候我們運用高成本的防空飛彈類似這樣的一個武器去對應它也會損害我們的預算以及防禦的成本所以這部分也已經納入考量當中簡單跟委員做個說明"},{"start":4295.051,"end":4312.083,"text":"我想我們從美伊之間的戰事還觀察到幾個現象包括伊朗雖然耗費巨資引進中國製的雷達還有二制的防空系統可是在這一次卻缺乏有效的整合使得美軍電戰干擾的作戰下讓他們整個系統都癱瘓失靈"},{"start":4317.147,"end":4331.729,"text":"對於台灣來說我們有性能卓越的飛彈也有持續增購相關的防空系統在我們國造武器與美制系統之間的整合也是我們接下來急需提升的部分"},{"start":4332.53,"end":4352.903,"text":"那避免未來出現像伊朗一樣的這種窘境那我想這部分請教副部長我們如何確保未來在遭受中共高強度的這種電子干擾的攻擊之下還能夠有足夠的一個韌性來做抵抗避免各個防空單位退化成各自為戰的一個孤島"},{"start":4354.625,"end":4377.436,"text":"剛剛委員知道非常正確就是說目前來看中共對我在初期威脅最大是它的聯合火力打擊那這個聯合火力打擊裡面最重要就是它的不管是它的導彈飛彈或者是它的原火營對我們的部隊以及政府的關鍵基礎設施還有台灣人民當然造成非常大的一個傷害"},{"start":4379.077,"end":4398.836,"text":"所以為什麼要建造台灣之盾非常重要是我們希望能夠藉由分層的防禦高度的感知有效的攔截能夠藉由戰場管理系統將幹務委員所指導的辦案到美系以及我們自製的防空武器做一個有效的整合能夠藉由高度的感測"},{"start":4400.157,"end":4421.017,"text":"多建置高度感測的一個感測器那能夠自動分析管理然後藉由有效的這個板子來因應剛剛我所提的聯合火力打擊威脅的部分所以這部分已經納入我們專案辦公室當中每個禮拜已經每個月都會定期做一個"},{"start":4422.618,"end":4445.184,"text":"這個檢討以及相關的會議那也在每個月的工作進度會跟這個總統做一個進度的一個回報那確實從這一個呃呃國安以及國安部都有做相關的一個進度管制跟委員做個說明好那剛剛副部長您也大概有提及到這種低成本的作戰方式齁那在這一次這個呃"},{"start":4447.645,"end":4461.676,"text":"整個美國跟以色列還有伊朗的衝突之中還有這個俄烏戰爭我們都看到這個無人機的相關運用越來越吃重那在之前也傳出美軍在這個"},{"start":4463.297,"end":4487.387,"text":"一次的戰爭之中用1750萬美元的這種低成本無人機成功來摧毀伊朗的價值12億的防空設施在價值上出現不成比例的一個交換那我想我們對於相關的這種低成本的包括無人機還有相關防衛系統我們參考其他國家的經驗"},{"start":4488.807,"end":4509.964,"text":"像以色列投入了這種鐵速雷射防空系統據稱每一次攔截的成本只要幾塊美元而已美軍也部署梅羅普斯這種機動式的反無人機系統台灣雖然也有相關的裝備可以應對但是共軍如果發動這種"},{"start":4512.726,"end":4540.903,"text":"風群式的攻擊到底何種手段適合作為我們反制大量無人機侵略的一個方案也是我想來請教副部長的部分那面對這個中共可能更勝於伊朗的這種大量廉價無人機的攻擊威脅我們在低成本的這種攔截手段上在做法上如何來降低防禦的成本維持我們長期消耗的一個承載能力這個部分是不是請副部長大概再做簡要說明一下"},{"start":4541.873,"end":4568.908,"text":"跟委員回答第一個部分是我們考量到無人機的技術它更迭是非常快速的所以我們會透過國安部的創新小組DIO來引介目前已經成熟的自動化的槍砲以及無人機增工還有電針干擾的一個系統希望能夠結合到市場成熟的技術採小批量採購跟快速籌購的方式來獲得這樣的一個戰力第二個部分我們有藉由這個特別預算的這個"},{"start":4570.47,"end":4584.644,"text":"像希望在現有的飛彈技術基礎之上能夠研製以籌貨可執行遠程火箭彈攔截一個低成本的保護武器來建立世界這個保育量那目前我們除了"},{"start":4585.325,"end":4609.335,"text":"去參考國外最新的這樣的一個技術跟低成本的防空武器之外因為我們國內目前也有自製研發的能量目前也在進行當中那第三個部分我們也會同步去籌購部署右標甲目標衛星定位以及加強我們所有重要目標的防護來強化我們有關被動防禦的部分這部分都同步在進行當中簡單跟委員做個說明"},{"start":4611.176,"end":4629.675,"text":"我們從現有的資訊來看雖然伊朗在正規海空軍在這種死屍之怒中遭到嚴重打擊但是他們卻能憑藉所謂這種飛彈層和供應鏈的一個韌性在連續被轟炸十幾天之後依然維持反擊的能力"},{"start":4630.556,"end":4646.123,"text":"反應即便這個主動攔截失效透過高強度的這種被動防禦也能夠減少敵方空中偵察與打擊造成的損害更確保後續的反擊能力那對於台灣而言我們除了電網通訊節點"},{"start":4648.744,"end":4670.391,"text":"較為集中且脆弱那重要的這種軍事據點更可能是容易被鎖定的一個目標那我想這也許是中共在演習當中重點要打擊的一個科目並且一旦開戰我方可能會遭受到許多原火和無人機的飽和攻擊那對於這部分再請教副部長我們國防部針對關鍵設施的這種防護還有備援能力"},{"start":4675.433,"end":4690.692,"text":"用什麼方式來加強規劃我們如何提升自身戰力保存的這種機動化能力以維持我們反擊的一個能力包括東部的地下設施是否也需要做相關的檢討"},{"start":4692.252,"end":4708.144,"text":"簡單跟委員做說明,第一個部分是我們現在對於國軍的所有重要的防護模樣搬到指揮所跟地下洞窟的部分我們從應該是說從前年去年到今年已經完成相關的評估"},{"start":4708.945,"end":4735.76,"text":"那也做了相關的一個評估的一個防護報告所以對固定的這一個重要目標跟指揮所的部分我們後續會採取剛剛委員所指導辦到這個掩體加固的部分那第二個部分就是我們也加強在作案當中一個疏散配置跟指揮所的一個轉移而避免遭受到這一個敵人從層的一個攻擊或者是在打擊當中我們指揮所沒辦法運作"},{"start":4736.761,"end":4754.777,"text":"因此機動指揮所以及預備指揮所的選刊也已經完成了相關的一個選刊跟部署當中那第三個部分就是剛剛也跟這個委員剛剛同時說明的就是說辦到這個右標假目標衛星定位的干擾系統"},{"start":4755.638,"end":4777.369,"text":"還有威脅信號也在我們的這個規劃當中或許會逐步在這樣的一個規劃當中逐步去完成來因應目前無人機的威脅對國軍甚至整個這個政府關鍵基礎設施還有台灣人民的一個威脅當中都在我們的整個台灣制盾的這個規劃當中逐步去實現它"},{"start":4778.55,"end":4801.677,"text":"好那參照近期這個其他國家的這種戰事那要建構我們國防安全的一個戰力需要長遠的這個規劃與務實的執行那這部分也在請我們國防部持續的精進那將國際間的相關實戰經驗轉化為確保我們台海和平實質防衛的一個量能好以上謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":4807.608,"end":4820.731,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請中副部長有請中副部長"},{"start":4827.919,"end":4850.617,"text":"黃委員好您好我們今天就關於在左院長利用松子部去日本看棒球那本席感覺得出來你們也是出於無奈因此本席不會特別責怪空軍但本席還是希望國防都可以協助釐清一些問題那畢竟這件事"},{"start":4851.979,"end":4859.596,"text":"不是那麼單純的知不知恥的棒球而是牽涉到官員以上旗下"},{"start":4861.598,"end":4886.552,"text":"然後迫使下級機關承擔他們不該承擔的責任甚至嚴重到以私人身份濫用國防的資源那從媒體的報導中可以知道那左院長包機使用松子部的前一天找了很多相關機關去行政院開專案會議開會一定會有一個開會的通知"},{"start":4887.116,"end":4915.988,"text":"那本席想要知道開會通知的內容包含發文機關會議組織開會時間是否為上班的時間那開會地點是否為行政院的會議室開會通知可以公開給本委會是不是可以提供一份這一份包含開會的組織能不能提供"},{"start":4919.144,"end":4946.95,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長跟委員報告針對剛剛您提到會議的部分通知的部分我們都是受到電話通知與行政院是召開語音的方式來做一個會議邀集相關的單位剛剛您有提到這邊我也不方便做其他的單位的回答這個是沒有正式發函我們是受到電話的通知召開的專案會議"},{"start":4949.386,"end":4969.65,"text":"既然是電話通知而且是松子部包機到日本去第一個我們去想像如果是從松子部包機到任何地方一定是以什麼以他的這個公文為主"},{"start":4970.259,"end":4992.996,"text":"所以實為公務 公務的行為所以如果是以私人的角度不應該要用公務行為來包機來以下 以上欺下然後責怪到你們這個機關現在很多人誤會 送死部到底是誰的指令你們會願意這樣子"},{"start":4995.993,"end":5023.879,"text":"冒那麼大的風險然後他們沒有任何的行文然後只是用電話裡面來指示你們要包機用私人的行程裡面這樣的行為已經構成了很多是不是這個比如說堵職或者是有很多的這樣的一個違反公務法的第七條你看看我們想一想"},{"start":5024.679,"end":5053.157,"text":"我們過去很多的監察院監察院這個所糾正的像秘書長李俊逸監察委員林玉榮王榮章蘇麗瓊遭揭露私用公務車社會觀感非常差所以左院長堅持是私人的事務但動用多個行政機關為了他的私人行程的開會"},{"start":5054.778,"end":5083.345,"text":"所以這可以說是向全國公務員做出一個最糟糕的示範所以我想你們未來在松子部如果它是真正的街道你們真正的街道是公務行程我想你們就必須要執行如果不是公務行程而是用電話告知然後它必須要包機到日本去你們必須要執行"},{"start":5084.526,"end":5099.923,"text":"來配合,我想你們也有私子的一個問題所以你們提供你們在這過程裡面提供給我們本委會一份資料好不好是"},{"start":5100.828,"end":5125.454,"text":"好 那另外一次是 我想請問一下部長 副部長本期看了今天的報告 感覺不是在檢討我國對無人機攻擊的報告 反而更像是推銷國會同意給錢買武器的一個縮帖那請問副部長 目前國軍防無人機作戰是由誰負責 你來回答"},{"start":5126.325,"end":5147.178,"text":"目前整個國軍反無人機的作戰是由參謀本部來規劃負責整個反無人機作戰的部分所以參謀本部 所謂參謀本部有沒有包含空軍有包含空軍當然他的參謀本部的責任官就是由總長來負責好 待會我會提出幾項的問題所在因為"},{"start":5148.118,"end":5166.656,"text":"你認為國軍目前對無人機攻擊最薄弱的地方是什麼據本席了解最薄弱的地方除了國軍缺乏反無人機的專用武器外還有什麼第一即使是無人機國軍主要針對的還是高價值"},{"start":5167.813,"end":5187.959,"text":"高價值的目標對小型無人機封群準備不足第二防無人機的能力集中的防空單位戰術單位卻很薄弱那尤其是小型的無人機這個封群對國軍的壓力非常大但這個在"},{"start":5190.855,"end":5217.09,"text":"蘭德公司和新美國安行中心的兵推中都已經明確的指出了這也是吐血我國防無人機作戰集中的防空單位的問題由於小型無人機的飛行距離有限無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到台灣所以共勤的小型無人機風起想要對國軍"},{"start":5219.291,"end":5246.855,"text":"構成威脅首先要取得什麼要取得制海制空權再由大型無人機或兩棲艦艇甚至以武裝漁船放飛無人機的風巡所以因此國軍最有效的反制無人機風巡作為很大程度反而是在海軍的反艦作戰而不是空軍的防空作戰"},{"start":5248.096,"end":5264.547,"text":"當我們提到反制無人機的時候從來不會有人提出海軍在這個當中的角色所以部長要做到完整的防無人機體系各軍種要如何配合各自負責什麼樣的任務你來提一下"},{"start":5265.441,"end":5286.629,"text":"所以剛剛委員指導也非常正確就是說我們現在對於整個這一個反制無人區的部分我們必須要將現在的整個防空5G上面去做一個整合辦到我們區分高層中層以及低層那如何有效做到這一個分層的攔截高度的"},{"start":5287.369,"end":5315.209,"text":"感知以及有效的這個防禦有效攔截跟防禦這個部分這中間需要一個戰場管理系統去整合它那這也是我們目前在努力的手段所以我們目前整個這個反無人機的部分當然您剛剛指導非常正確的地方就是說風群的無人機戰術它目前可能實行的方式是從海上或者是登陸之後來做一個大量以及風群的一個戰術"},{"start":5316.63,"end":5336.665,"text":"目前在我們目前的所有狀態防護設施上面我們也已經建置了相關的一個板制的部分包含到無人機的板制系統機炮的一個板制系統甚至我們一區整體安全上面也律定了相關的一些規定能夠板制您剛剛所講的包含到一二類的三無人機"},{"start":5337.466,"end":5358.177,"text":"因為實驗因素,第一個提出來的縱然是有幾項是重點可是本席認為有很大的一個反差為什麼?因為你們的準備不足我本席提出完整的防無人氣的體系應該有幾項第一個空清負責空液"},{"start":5359.858,"end":5379.357,"text":"監控與防空指揮第二海軍負責打擊海上無人機平台第三海巡針對武裝漁船或海上民兵船等灰色地帶來做一個監控那第四入侵前線部隊反無人機第五"},{"start":5381.325,"end":5406.423,"text":"電戰部隊進行電子壓制與干擾這幾項就是你們應該要加強的現在我們的無人機反而現在是走傳統的傳統的這樣防空的體系我說這個也是很落後的我希望能夠跟我提出來的應該分層負責在各個單位裡面有五項提出來"},{"start":5407.185,"end":5428.232,"text":"因為國軍的無人性能力簡單來說只停留在傳統的防空體系所以跨軍軍種的配合薄弱還是缺乏體系化作戰的概念部長你認為我提出的這個有沒有道理"},{"start":5428.972,"end":5448.634,"text":"我簡單跟委員做個說明,因為這個反制無人機系統台灣之盾是針對整個台灣本島的一個防空防疫去做一個整體的規劃那您剛剛所提有關艦隊防空以及海軍的反艦作戰或是基地防衛裡面其實各軍種各自有他自己的一個防務系統"},{"start":5449.275,"end":5475.495,"text":"那目前我們希望把台灣本島的所有的陸海空的一個高中低層的防空武器做一個有效的整合來因應防護台灣本島的一個防空那有關這個板制在有關這個爭奪制空制海權的部分各自軍種他當然有他自己本身的一個自我防衛的一個能力跟板建的能力這兩個部分是要分開在所以剛剛我已經提出來嘛"},{"start":5476.175,"end":5493.936,"text":"我們我國的反無人機的作戰集中在防空單位的問題由於這個小型無人機的飛行的距離有限所以無法從福建沿海直接跨越海峽飛到台灣所以它的距離"},{"start":5494.777,"end":5523.411,"text":"不夠遠所以要有什麼載具比如說反艦艇比如說要用民船民兵在過程裡面來做一個載運然後再來進行無人機的這樣的一個飛行戰鬥所以這個就是一個你們要思考的我們還是停留在一個傳統防空的一個系統嘛所以我今天要提的是我們買了這麼多的無人機但是我們今天要看它的"},{"start":5524.191,"end":5530.774,"text":"效能能不能達到他的標準所以你們要重新的檢討啊 好不好好 謝謝委員指導好接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢"},{"start":5555.338,"end":5558.091,"text":"有請中副部長請中副部長"},{"start":5565.907,"end":5592.638,"text":"保安員好早早我也拿到了這次國防部針對這次委員會開會所提出的一個報告我想這個報告很好就是針對現在不管是美伊戰爭還是美伊衝突的一些檢討我想這個軍工本來就導入系統構成的概念我想PTCA非常重要所以我今天就就教國防部這邊針對這個報告裡面的一些細節我再來做一些就教"},{"start":5594.278,"end":5622.137,"text":"我想在這次戰爭裡面當然雙方互有斬獲不過我剛剛講的在資訊系統裡面其實雷達就像資訊系統的眼睛一樣不過我們好像看到報宅的資訊約旦的ANTBY2這一套雷達好像有被摧毀我想雷達被摧毀後整個防疫系統基本上就被摧毀了基本上我這個資訊不想光顧這邊應該有掌握"},{"start":5628.982,"end":5644.913,"text":"因為這個報告裡面也講到很多這個低成本的不對稱的一些互相的戰力的配置我們現在在過去比較被動的部分包含我們愛國者或是天公三號基本上成本其實都還蠻高的"},{"start":5646.494,"end":5675.177,"text":"就這一次很多這個不對稱戰力的部分而且就我們知道很多這個資訊看起來中國都在研發一些低成本的一些武器比如說像無人機剛剛前面幾位委員提到非常非常多所以針對這個我想就是不對稱就是像這次伊朗後來發動這種所謂的無人機的攻擊那針對我剛剛說的過去這個被動式不管愛國者飛彈這個成本差異非常非常大不曉得國防部對這個因應有什麼樣具體的一些建議"},{"start":5676.945,"end":5699.882,"text":"剛剛委員說得非常正確就是說我們現在愛國者飛彈當然它的造價是非常高所以基本上對於剛剛所提的有關無人機的部分尤其是小型的無人機我們不會用高成本的這個防空武器去使用它所以有關愛國者飛彈跟天貨的部分大部分是針對敵人的高價值的戰機或高價值的這一個彈道飛彈巡弋飛彈來執行攔截"},{"start":5706.027,"end":5720.377,"text":"那這也是我們後續為什麼台灣制度裡面我們要去發展一個低成本的防空武器能夠攔截遠程的火箭尤其是現在看到就是您剛剛所提的放到他的原火營跟無人機未來絕對是他在"},{"start":5722.679,"end":5733.886,"text":"那所以這個看起來過去天宮我們叫強宮這個專案基本上我們用的是我們常常說它是台版的薩德那基本上它會不會變靈到剛剛我說的這個問題就是雷達NPY2會不會發生同樣的狀況"},{"start":5740.093,"end":5763.639,"text":"這個強攻專案它的發展就是為了因應希望能夠用低成本的這個防空武器來作為我們反制無人機的一個最主要一個裝備那目前這整個強攻專案目前在進行當中如果有需要的話我們會到委員辦公室去專案跟你做個說明但是他簡單說就是一個低成本的一個防空武器希望能夠因援火以及這個無人機的威脅"},{"start":5764.359,"end":5777.999,"text":"對 所以借盡了美伊衝突他們之間的狀況請國安部再把他列入做參考那剛剛前面很多委員都提到這個IBCS我想這個對我們來說這個CIS的integration非常非常重要因為我們現在有很多這個"},{"start":5779.521,"end":5794.957,"text":"來自不同的 我們重溫的時候來自很多包括我們最近要跟美國買一些武器所以基本上整合上對我們來說非常非常重要因為我們這個系統裡面可能有一些美國的系統也有一些我們自治的系統不知道這個整合上會不會有什麼樣的困難"},{"start":5797.163,"end":5824.517,"text":"剛剛所提就是我在前面跟所有委員報告當中確實戰場管理系統如果去整合美制的防空武器以及台灣自治的防空武器這是我們未來努力的一個方向那我要再次說明就是說IBCS當然它是一個美軍現在陸軍現行的一個戰場管理系統這是我們目前的評估的選項之一那也有其他的戰場管理系統在做相關的研討跟磋商"},{"start":5825.017,"end":5852.723,"text":"所以後續會有一個比較距離因為我們專案辦公室目前也在研究相關的戰場管理系統做相關的研究跟評估當中這是其中一個選項所以因為國外好像這個系統整合上其實都不是非常非常OK包括丹麥他們最近其實還沒有覺得我想我們現在要構思整個國防的整合的系統我希望國防部這件事情尤其這一次的美伊的衝突基本上也把這些事情列入參考至於它的這個效益"},{"start":5853.303,"end":5872.91,"text":"我也想要知道一下是不是可以國防部有一些進一步的資訊可不可以提供我們的辦公室做一些參考好那另外這個無人機我想大家今天都提到很多或是我們過去在講這個整個軍購的部分那我們先不要講新的我們先講過去的這個部分MQ-9P這個部分這個交貨因為這是114年的預算不曉得現在這個狀況怎麼樣交貨的狀況"},{"start":5881.153,"end":5905.704,"text":"這個MQ-9整個專案目前都是按計畫來進行那預計在今年第三季首兩架會回到台灣是所以按照原來的期程是沒有問題的是完全按照計畫好那非常好那基本上除了我們這個軍購的部分我們其實國內尤其像中科院我們有做一些開發一些無人機防禦系統"},{"start":5906.772,"end":5923.969,"text":"那這個過去好像有一些狀況啦那個在上一個會期好像也講到這個延宕的事情好像是根據這個因為鏡頭的關係是不是是不是請國防部做一下說明這個問題是不是已經解決了是不是可以如期的做一些這個研發或重獲我請中院院長"},{"start":5926.267,"end":5937.369,"text":"報委員沒有錯在初期執行的時候的確因為惡霧戰爭的關係我們的關鍵的鏡頭組件從國外進口造成了延宕現在整個這個部分全部都是百分之百在國內自治"},{"start":5938.707,"end":5960.862,"text":"所以已經改成就是連那個鏡頭的部分都我們自己來做因為上次我也跟著國防委員那時候到美國去其實我們在這個美方也跟我們講了很多供應鏈供應的問題我想在我們這個武器的籌貨上那可能還是要把這些因素考慮進去讓我們這個軍工的部分和武器的部分如期能夠拿到"},{"start":5963.215,"end":5976.008,"text":"接下來就是海關號的部分我想國人也非常非常的關心所以我們現在做很多測試現在是潛航測試不曉得現在進度狀況怎麼樣是不是可以簡單跟我們大家說一下"},{"start":5979.936,"end":5995.539,"text":"委員好 海軍參謀長報告那目前已經完成了潛航的第六次的海測那目前在持續按照後續的測像跟相關的準備現在正在緊如密鼓在準備那會按照一個安全的條件來做後續的測試 以上報告"},{"start":5996.119,"end":6013.686,"text":"對 所以現在原來的相關的一些其實還在進行中那因為這個好像有一些delay所以會產生一些計法的狀況不曉得現在計法的狀況可能是到最後交界的時候才會處理那不曉得現在的狀況是怎麼樣我想國人你都非常的關心"},{"start":6014.542,"end":6029.088,"text":"是 跟委員報告相關的計法的部分因為依照合約我們會在交件之後才會依照整個delay的整個時間我們來做一月的計法但是由於這個計法的這個基準我們有一些精進空間現在已經在跟台船做一些平台"},{"start":6029.768,"end":6053.403,"text":"我們再看看後面的依照合約的計法我們怎麼來修正跟改正這個目前正在作業所以有現在比較確定的狀況嗎比如說大概我們要怎麼樣處理這件事情包括哪些功能或是哪些項目剛剛您說的 有進一步的資訊嗎目前沒有 如果有會再跟委員這邊做報告"},{"start":6054.143,"end":6077.314,"text":"那現在看起來交建的狀況不曉得國防部這邊大概預期的交建的預期大概會抓在什麼時候跟委員報告因為我們是合約的甲方我們一定是要完成它的品質跟合乎海軍的作戰需求那會請台船依照合約然後我們會來做狀況管理那現在先完成整個海上測試之後才能談到後續的交建的期程"},{"start":6077.974,"end":6090.603,"text":"是 所以專案管理很重要啦我想這個隨時都希望能夠跟我們做一些報告有些delay啦 這我們過去在學校非常care這個事情做專案管理啦才不會到最後一拖拖拖整個就拖下去了啦"},{"start":6091.908,"end":6108.358,"text":"另外就是其實我加入外交國防委員會因為有特別預算我就一直在看看我們國內重獲軍工武器的一個狀況我特別就去查了一個這個概念這個應該有就五年兵力的整建計畫"},{"start":6109.699,"end":6127.507,"text":"那我想這個應該跟我們整個軍購或者我們自製的一些武器會有很大的關係不過我剛來之前我發現好像很多報道說這個裡面很多機密後來去查了一下好像國防法是分兩種就所謂的有機密的也有公開的應該是這樣才對吧不曉得國防部長"},{"start":6129.268,"end":6157.971,"text":"是應該是有可以公開的部分就是上次的那個資訊是有問題的所以我想希望未來我們不管各項的這個包括我們最近的軍購都能夠大概告訴我們一下這個五年這個兵力的狀況怎麼樣跟我們因為現在有兩類嘛一個是general的budget就一般的預算裡面也有這種所謂special那這兩者到底要怎麼樣balance我想我們都非常想要知道"},{"start":6161.073,"end":6174.33,"text":"包委員,我們的確每一個會期我們都會向大院這邊來做兵力整建的報告但這個報告的內容我們揭露的主要是我們目前正在執行中的主要武器裝備的籌貨"},{"start":6176.092,"end":6202.634,"text":"那五年兵力,國防部本身的五年兵力整建計畫的內容它是屬於我們國防部內部機密評估未來我們所需求的項目那這個部分兩者是不一樣的一個是我們內部的建軍文件一個是對大院所做的報告所以兩者之間在這個國防法裡面,律定我們的跟那個所以我指的是公開的部分啦,不是一個報告"},{"start":6205.396,"end":6224.491,"text":"最後我想利用一點點時間因為大家知道我是勞動學者我們這邊為了少子女化其實我們做了很多的努力我也希望很多君子的這些媽媽我想國防部要多多為他們著想一下而且我認識很多朋友女性的君子人員"},{"start":6225.191,"end":6248.539,"text":"他常常他的老公他另外一半也是軍職人員這個很多我們現在少子女化要生小孩要養小孩小孩生病了還要帶他去看醫生我希望是不是國防部可以想一套方法怎麼來幫助這些軍職的這些媽媽讓他們真的也敢生小孩也能夠真的把小孩能夠帶好當然也強化我們的國防能力"},{"start":6249.167,"end":6270.52,"text":"是第一個部分就是當然這一個我們希望能夠讓軍人在安心的服役對於軍隊的照顧是非常重要的那所以委員上面所提的目前的整個這個托兒機構目前在相關的主要部分是我們持續在推動的工作當中目前整個托兒機制的部分"},{"start":6272.301,"end":6294.923,"text":"我所理解目前都已經在相關的地區都已經有建置那除了外島地區可能是有比較困難之外那另外在本島北中南東這個部分大部分都已經設置了那實際我們現在整個育嬰的部分有開了30處的一個育嬰托嬰中心那也"},{"start":6296.144,"end":6303.114,"text":"其中只要軍艦有需要照顧的部門我們都能夠分擔是不是還可以提供一些書類資料給我們辦公室 好不好謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":6326.124,"end":6334.601,"text":"請副部長黃委員好"},{"start":6336.174,"end":6363.642,"text":"副部長我今天當我們的題目是從美伊戰爭裡面要學一些教訓事實上在過去這一年大概這兩三年不管是俄烏戰爭甚至於在其他的地方發生的大小軍事衝突其實有相當多值得台灣借鏡的比方說委內瑞拉比方說以色列跟周邊國家的衝突樣態不一樣那裡面有一個特徵就是"},{"start":6364.722,"end":6386.56,"text":"在現在戰場上我們因應的狀態跟我們從二戰、越戰、韓戰學到的經驗已經完全不一樣了如果這思維沒有改變坦白講軍事裝備在手上運用會變成是事倍功半我第一個先請教我剛才看到幾位同仁也問到了這個Shahid這一個見證者沙西德"},{"start":6388.195,"end":6406.365,"text":"非常便宜那一台大概不到一百萬台幣那他打中了當時全世界大概就四座鋪路爪雷達台灣有一座最早期只有兩座北美防空司令部再來就台灣那打中這個鋪路爪那第一個他為什麼會打到他"},{"start":6407.577,"end":6426.952,"text":"我不曉得我們國防部有沒有研究就是說這種高單價極具戰略價值的重要設施面對這種低廉的甚至它坦白講我們任何的飛彈防空面要去打它都不划算的殺死了而且速度非常慢為什麼會打中尤其是在美軍的防禦體系下"},{"start":6428.524,"end":6454.877,"text":"你們有沒有研究原因這個部分因為它要連用廉價的這個武器要打中這個昂貴的因為這個部分看起來它是一個固定設施所以掀起的一個情報的蒐集跟定位是最重要的一件事情也是確定我們都知道這種固定設施第一級都會打啦會用飛彈打極音速飛彈來打現在是一個時速大概50公里的慢速的無人機那個聲音齁"},{"start":6458.138,"end":6471.5,"text":"是像那個摩托車把消音器拔掉的聲音喔很大喔它怎麼打中的我們空軍有沒有研究我們相關單位有沒有研究就是說它是怎麼打中的他山之石啊要學啊"},{"start":6478.175,"end":6498.804,"text":"這跟您報告 至於他怎麼打中這個部分 我們目前沒有太多的情質但是就我們自己本身的雷達陣地來講 樂山雷達陣地來講他是結合周邊的冰火力我今天為什麼要問第一題要問這一題人家在波斯灣的周邊的冰火力比我們還密集"},{"start":6500.327,"end":6519.461,"text":"因為這個資訊不夠清楚所以說我們不清楚但是他們的愛國者防空營不夠還把日本跟韓國的調過去了我不知道這樣講對不對沙西德非常廉價結果俄羅斯拿去在烏克蘭戰場用還造成了他不准但他打中了很多"},{"start":6520.622,"end":6542.473,"text":"電啊發電廠一些設施這一次在伊朗戰爭裡面後來發現我看了一些軍事專家的研究第一個沙西德它的速度慢慢到我們在正常的雷達系統會把它過濾掉這是否為真這個部分就是要按照情資來做一個設定因為我們一般設定"},{"start":6544.246,"end":6561.405,"text":"那個波段不管遠程的雷達它的波段就長嘛短程的雷達波段就比較密集嘛然後呢為了太多的雜訊我要把它過濾掉所以以前無人機有時候會被過濾掉因為小後來發現速度也是一個因素在一定速度以下"},{"start":6562.546,"end":6583.685,"text":"雷達的電腦會自動把它過濾認為這是雜波是不是有這個情形我們會根據目標的速度它的大小我們都會做不同的設定所以這麻煩啦因為它速度慢本來是缺點直升機用機槍就打得了但是它現在因為速度慢我們先進的雷達有時候就把它濾掉了"},{"start":6584.545,"end":6607.394,"text":"我們除了這個雷達以外我們在陣地裡面都有加裝的這個GPS干擾器所以說它越慢其實對它的影響程度會越大它設定它是program它設定的所以第一個原因是因為它速度這個慢速所以便宜它引擎很爛嘛那個50匹馬力而已因為慢速因為爛反而可以躲過我們先進雷達這是一個第二個"},{"start":6608.194,"end":6636.148,"text":"也是因為爛啊俄羅斯用的沙西德有塑膠的有複合材料的有木頭的耶所以對雷達波來講它的穿透性變成比較好不會打回來所以這第二個原因那中國其實有學到一大堆這些低廉低價的無人機這種油彈炸藥比我們的其他的我們還要去做反輻射的其實更貴這種油彈炸藥量大又便宜那第三個它是設定好它可以飛很遠"},{"start":6637.318,"end":6650.863,"text":"所以他在那邊他program之後就事後不理了關你打到什麼有打就好去也不用回來所以這種形態的攻擊我現在只問我們國防部我們現在有沒有能力看得見就是目獲第二個有沒有能力處理它"},{"start":6653.784,"end":6667.992,"text":"報委員 情報次長這邊再跟委員報告因為目前我們伊朗的這個戰事還正在進行當中那有關於剛剛委員所提到的那些在系統上面可能會"},{"start":6669.529,"end":6692.146,"text":"造成的這些效應還有一些西部的工程上面的這些我想跟那天美國國防部他在記者會的時候曾經有提建議過我們大家在討論的時候因為這些目前戰爭正在進行當中可能我們也不太適合在這邊跟委員把我們這邊所掌握到的內容我不問你們有沒有從美方那邊獲得一些"},{"start":6693.496,"end":6717.974,"text":"意見或者資訊的交流這個絕對有這個我們都是在針對這一個事件因為我們是大概全世界四座六座使用這個但我現在不是針對普魯爪雷達有很多高單價比方說沙西的慢速又便宜他很容易發動飽和攻擊的針對民用的關鍵基礎設施重要的軍事設施如果我們雷達他看見反而好難"},{"start":6719.295,"end":6742.893,"text":"他用機槍就可以打下來 看見反而好藍他被綠掉了 反而看不見這是一個問題 我要提醒我們國防部這一種形態就是新的戰場態勢我們以前都研究越先進的 逆中的 高速的這種量工的自動車你看不到他反而麻煩那他量很大 他就設定他飛兩千公里 他會東繞西繞慢慢飛過來所以我進到下一個"},{"start":6744.465,"end":6771.964,"text":"我看到你們的這次檢討報告說要建構台灣之盾來因應類似伊朗這樣的情形那我們台灣之盾其實就三個概念第一個是層層攔截70公里100公里40公里一直到最淨空的防禦層層攔截第二個其實很重要是跨系統整合我們目前為止國造的天宮系列跟美歸的愛國者其實互相是"},{"start":6772.915,"end":6797.618,"text":"要經過JOCC對話 他互相是不能講話的你看到的我看不到 然後你要打的我不知道所以會造成重複打擊也好 或者反應時間會變慢所以跨系統整合 這也是大家要談這個IBCS的原因第三個 其他一個重點 彈藥的存量你的彈藥存量 你的系統再好 彈打完了"},{"start":6798.462,"end":6817.319,"text":"你就要減量只針對高價值保護其他就讓他過吧會變這個情形所以我就這三點請教目前台灣之盾的核心的預算當然是在我們國防特別預算的特別條例裡面在這裡面有關層層攔截你們認為我們台灣最需要補強的是哪一層"},{"start":6818.641,"end":6843.917,"text":"目前最缺的是哪一層現在整個中層跟高層的這個防禦的部分目前來看能夠因應有關共軍的一個防空攻擊跟威脅看起來是沒有問題中高層能力沒有問題 彈量夠不夠彈量目前我們後續會持續的在增強跟控制當中能力夠我就要問彈量嘛好那再來"},{"start":6844.838,"end":6870.671,"text":"那第二部分就是目前來看對於有關第一層應該是講說中第一層的防禦尤其是它的原火營的威脅來說是我們後續會放在整個藍安捷上面一個研討的一個重點原火是最頭痛的它貼地表加上海洋地球曲率海洋的閘波速度又快然後它對面有三個鋁"},{"start":6872.011,"end":6884.505,"text":"所以原火對台灣來講其實是破壞性威脅性很大所以目前在台灣之盾裡面針對中共原火那幾個部署在我們海峽當面的你們在台灣之盾裡面設計的是什麼東西要來應處這一塊"},{"start":6886.929,"end":6910.019,"text":"目前我們規劃就是剛剛在報告當中就是一個希望執行能夠遠程火箭彈攔截低成本的防空武器那這個研討因為這個系統還在研發當中所以我想也不適合在研發的東西有的我聽20年都還在研發目前已經有初步的一個多久可以看到東西你們是研發還是外購"},{"start":6911.466,"end":6928.147,"text":"還是合作我們有自行研發也有評估國外相關的廠商同步來進行當中是不是有現有的裝備可以符合我們的需求但是跟我們台灣合作生產是不是這個模式否則你們從零到開始研發好賣乎啊"},{"start":6928.988,"end":6955.587,"text":"其實現在已經有初步的研究的成果就是天空四行的部分已經有一些天空四行是中高空的 我現在講原火他現在因為四行的部分他同時也可以因應相關原火低成本的那個李士強李院長出來了就是說針對原火你們在台灣製鈍裡面到底設計在層層的哪一層裡面針對原火我們有專門的一型低成本彈藥來執行的案件有方案了嗎有實測過了嗎"},{"start":6957.25,"end":6972.476,"text":"明年明年才實測嘛這是我們自己研發的還是台美合作的自己研發的技術都是我們自己的那接下來就討論到蛋的量的問題這也就是我們在特別預算特別條例裡面有一塊"},{"start":6973.835,"end":6999.829,"text":"當然我們在野黨的朋友有把它拿掉就在地生產這一塊這裡面不只是無人機反無人機其實很多彈藥我們的戰備需求的眾生要在台灣合作生產這一塊其實很重要你在好的系統愛國者打完了烏克蘭現在剩一堆載台啊沒有彈啊你沒有用啊你知道讓他過去嘛所以我的意思說我們的彈藥量就你們目前的評估很簡單一個回答現況喔夠還是不夠"},{"start":7005.324,"end":7026.345,"text":"就台灣之盾這個專案來講我們目前的彈的量夠還是不夠就剛剛的報告我們要建構低中高三層那剛剛盧委員所說我們對於遠程火箭的防禦能量是現在積極要去籌貨因為就我們在做敵情上的所以彈量目前現況是不夠的是所以需要積極的去籌貨那現況是不夠的你們計畫是用採購還是在台生產"},{"start":7027.832,"end":7052.248,"text":"當然現在是希望能夠多多元途徑去獲得我接受就是說有些外購有的在台生產有互相互為備援這我接受但我們台灣生產這塊過去其實蠻缺的啦日本都已經技術合作生產愛國者飛彈了嘛就是說彈藥有很多種像現在155、155它是可以打無人機還打蠻準的但平時不能用"},{"start":7053.149,"end":7072.455,"text":"硬砂在平時你打出去落點在哪裡很麻煩我們平時大概用軟砂那軟硬砂之間有個灰色地帶是雷射大概是要組成這樣的網絡所以我剛才問的問題是現況的彈你們剛才評估是不夠那後續這些彈要縱深的取得是在台生產要不要增加這一塊"},{"start":7075.491,"end":7089.939,"text":"我是侯志志市長向委員報告針對於我們國內沒有產能或是我們國內產能不足的部分我們是運用特別預算採軍購跟商購並行的方式那另外在明年這個特別預算過以後我們針對於這個軍備局"},{"start":7091.64,"end":7108.876,"text":"特別有開14條的生產線包含各式武器彈藥以及我的火炸藥的部分未來我們也希望在我們國內產能的部分能以最大量來生產包含這一次韓國政府輸出許可卡住其實我們有能力的話還是要自己做所以我還是希望國防跟國家安全其實沒有什麼黨派的問題"},{"start":7110.717,"end":7140.177,"text":"我們對美採購當然這個重要因為那是先進裝備但是建立台灣的軍需的供應鏈不管是無人機反無人機彈藥這一些在台台美合作透過八年期的特別預算給予穩定的訂單誘發台灣強大的製造業轉投入這一塊以及我們自己軍工兵工廠能夠提升其實這一塊是整個1.25兆裡面雖然佔比大概三千多億但是其實蠻重要的我們真的希望"},{"start":7141.518,"end":7163.911,"text":"這個東西真的我再講一次沒有黨派的問題這桌子有四張腳你缺了一隻腳桌子就是歪掉了所以我們特別預算有關國內供應鏈這一塊其實還是要強化那因為我不想佔太長時間我兩個題目交給你們事後回答我我在去年提到有關國防大學應該偵涉偵涉我不剝奪現在的偵涉文職副校長"},{"start":7165.612,"end":7193.362,"text":"讓學術跟學術倫理這一塊能夠有一個來自於學術界的文職副校長因為畢竟在國防大學培養的是人才那當時你們回答是三個月內要回答我到目前已經超過時間還沒有答案你們現在就不用回答再來就是有關這一個二月底三月上旬共機的靜默期你們目前有沒有什麼評估這個簡單一句回答就好你們對於共機有一段時間特別是"},{"start":7194.622,"end":7211.47,"text":"美國對伊朗動武的時候共機有一段時間就不見了那最近又有出現的時候當然比較遺憾啦國內有特定媒體是歡欣鼓舞啦那是對台灣的威脅那個靜默期到底是一個對你們來講是一個正向的訊號還是危險的負向訊號"},{"start":7213.895,"end":7240.62,"text":"包委員您剛剛所提的這個13天的時間我們持續在觀察當然這個時間也發生了很多國際事件包含了剛剛您所提到國際事件中國內部也有事件是的那也在兩會期間那所以在這個時間點我們只能跟委員報告我們會持續在密註後續的一些那秦釋是這邊把他這13天的靜默期視為正向指標負向指標還是無法判定"},{"start":7242.04,"end":7243.341,"text":"下面請馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":7279.292,"end":7281.038,"text":"謝主席 麻煩請副部長"},{"start":7291.11,"end":7309.923,"text":"副部長好副部長剛剛我們聽到很多前面委員在關切的很多的議題可是我們好像還沒有聽到很確切的這些答案那大概都是覺得說我們有很重要的需求可是我們到底應該要怎麼樣因應或者從這幾場不管大小的這些戰爭也好或者其他的"},{"start":7316.667,"end":7335.064,"text":"地區的這些戰鬥的這些武裝的行動也好其實我們好像還沒有很明確的找到我們的方向因為俄烏戰爭跟梅伊伊戰爭已經讓全世界看到一個非常清楚的事情就是未來戰場的核心它不再是昂貴"},{"start":7336.485,"end":7344.428,"text":"而精密的大型武器而是廉價大量而且可消耗的系統裝備當然最典型的就是大家現在一直非常關注的無人機的部分那就這個部分我們也看到因為剛剛像媒體在報導裡面又委員提到我們像這一次美軍部署在中東地區卡達北部像我們國軍建置在樂山的這個普魯爪雷達"},{"start":7365.438,"end":7381.235,"text":"歷經兩次的無人機攻擊他就已經損毀了而且至少有一部是建制在約旦的薩德雷達跟美軍負責的中東地區作戰指揮中央司令部的這個部分其實他也都遭到嚴重的損傷"},{"start":7382.777,"end":7386.098,"text":"甚至連以色列引以為傲的這個鐵穹防空系統在伊朗運用高超音速導彈極速彈還有低價慢速自殺無人機混合搭配的攻擊之下其實都被戳破了神話這是我們這一次要探討的我們現在在特別運算裡面也一直提出來剛剛"},{"start":7405.683,"end":7411.388,"text":"副部長有提到有回答一個問題我認為可能是有矛盾的你說我們不會用高價的這些防空武器防空系統去打很便宜的這些比如說像無人機可是我們看到這一次包括美國包括以色列其實他們都是非常強的一個軍事的國家他們在這個部分"},{"start":7429.424,"end":7448.687,"text":"甚至美國兩天都打掉了一年的飛彈的產量800枚以上900枚所以像副部長說我們可以不要用高價的這些去應對尤其是解放軍他們的無人機目前全世界無人機最強的還有戰場環境還有干擾其實最強的就是解放軍所以副部長對於這樣子的一個說法我想可能還沒有"},{"start":7458.849,"end":7469.772,"text":"全盤的去回答像這樣的問題雖然美以聯軍他也是權威度無死角的打擊至少摧毀伊朗兩三千個這樣的軍事目標可是美以聯軍對伊朗持續到現在的戰爭剛剛你們也說現在戰爭還在持續其實已經超過了美國"},{"start":7481.155,"end":7506.869,"text":"川普總統他本來預先構想的他本來可以以為可以像委內瑞拉一樣可以讓他立即的投降可是結果沒有這個才是我們要拿來當成我們應該要借鏡或者我們應該要去檢討我們未來的因應的方向或者武器裝備或者我們的預算的運用上面我們特別提出今天專報的一個主要的目的"},{"start":7508.052,"end":7528.453,"text":"姑且我們現在可能後面還有很多的時間或者我們還會有持續的機會來討論我們未來的一個部署還有我們的預算的一個編列或者我們預算的運用以後的先不看我們今天先來看看剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的彈藥量夠不夠"},{"start":7531.021,"end":7536.684,"text":"的問題那我們看到M30發射藥根據媒體的報導國軍原本要國產105公里炮彈因為關鍵的M30發射藥"},{"start":7547.045,"end":7550.408,"text":"主要因為205兵工廠遷建而停產只好向國外採購那得標的廠商到現在還拿不到南韓政府的輸出許可我們一直在說我們現在彈藥不足這個明明我們可以自己做的"},{"start":7567.681,"end":7594.615,"text":"這個是112年招標的案子112年2月現在是115年3月整整三年的時間我們卻延宕了這麼長的時間如果說我們連自己可以生產或者我們自己可以控管而且預算已經出去的都沒有辦法好好的做出來你怎麼讓國人相信或怎麼讓我們國會相信這一筆預算未來在公共預算9000多億甚至在"},{"start":7595.675,"end":7612.991,"text":"特別預算裡面 民進黨政府還編了 國防部還編了高達一兆兩千五百億的這樣的預算可以如期如止的可以拿到獲得這樣子的一個彈藥或者其他的武器裝備這個部分我們看到了三個問題"},{"start":7614.98,"end":7619.023,"text":"比如說第一個問題說因為205兵工廠簽件而停產第一個問題兵工廠簽件為什麼會斷產正常的邏輯當初在設計的時候它的保證是什麼新產線完成然後測試成功以後舊產線才會轉備員"},{"start":7637.25,"end":7640.752,"text":"可是我們兵工廠產線它不是一般的工廠它是一個戰備工廠現在卻變成舊線停了然後新線還沒好火藥又停產只能外購那外購現在又拿不到輸出許可一拖拖三年這是第一個問題兵工產線它不是剪綵工程它牽涉到國家的安全"},{"start":7659.92,"end":7687.877,"text":"剛剛我們連這樣子的控管的這個整個程序我們都沒有辦法做到第二個問題戰爭如果真的發生我們的產能在哪裡我們說要有足夠的彈藥怎麼樣才是足夠的我們也不像伊朗我們也不像烏克蘭還有其他的陸路的或者其他的方式可以運進去台灣是一個海島我們周邊最近的除了海洋以外就是我們所謂的解放軍"},{"start":7688.797,"end":7700.106,"text":"那我們到底要如何增加這樣的產能很多人很喜歡講國防自主可是很少人講到一件事或討論到一件事就是當我們戰爭的時候第一波打擊會打哪裡第一波他大概就是雷打機場指揮中心還有就是兵工廠兵工廠一旦被摧毀了彈藥補給也就斷了"},{"start":7711.414,"end":7731.44,"text":"我們現在花了那麼多錢我們看不到我們現在所有兵工設施一直都是在地面現在新蓋的也是這樣啊第二個他都是集中設置還有他根本沒有地下化這一次伊朗其實他可以欺敵很重要的是他的地下化的設施他騙過了美國還有騙過了以色列他們以為已經炸毀了結果從那個地方全部發射飛彈來攻擊"},{"start":7741.443,"end":7758.992,"text":"這是非常嚴重的問題可是我們台灣根本都沒有就這些部分去做檢討只是要一直要經費一直要經費第三個問題採購程序到底在做什麼我剛剛提到的我們在編預算的時候都是非常重要現在一拖三年如果他真的拿不到許可就像顧部長說的"},{"start":7760.333,"end":7776.197,"text":"很簡單一直以來投標之前如果說他不能履約他就沒收他的押標金跟履約金重新招標三年以後如果我們再重新招標他還要多久我們才可以拿到這些火藥火藥以後我們還要自己製造"},{"start":7779.434,"end":7799.095,"text":"你們真的急嗎?這個部分有沒有說明?跟馬委員說明,第一個我們205場的火藥線是在107年拆線的那剛剛陳祿委員所指導的,我們拆線之前都有調查三軍五年內的需求所以三軍都給我們了,我們軍備局也在108年都爐起的工資"},{"start":7801.778,"end":7831.198,"text":"那近幾年來因為三軍的一個實障化跟這個戰備的存儲量增加我們是目前是用110年跟美國進口的量在做那另外針對航法的部分呢我們之前他有給我們回覆是因為他們一個國際局勢跟他們的政府的問題啊我們需要去努力所以再給他展言我們的日期是五月份我們要的不是我們要的不是理由不是廠商的理由然後我們也不是"},{"start":7831.998,"end":7843.702,"text":"如果說我們現在用美方提供的這些原料我們現在可以生產製造我們在三年前我們現在要的是我們的控管今天如果你急著如果連慢一個禮拜排這樣子的一個條例審查大家都會急著跳腳"},{"start":7848.684,"end":7853.169,"text":"那一拖拖三年彈藥的製造這個不只三年因為現在已經三年了如果你再拿到火藥的原料然後再生產製造其實它要更長的時間可能要高達五年甚至更高的時間我們現在要說的是當你這些都做不到的時候怎麼樣去控管其他的我們沒有理由幫廠商"},{"start":7869.429,"end":7876.675,"text":"而且甚至國防部現在是幫廠商去跟韓國透過外交部我們是要求我們國家的外交部去跟韓國協調對不對為什麼是我們幫我剛剛講得很清楚啊我們那時候因為這一家原來是在做什麼啤酒化這家廠商大廠商嗎沒有你剛剛說他是因為韓華得標的嗎韓華是得標的"},{"start":7896.785,"end":7921.975,"text":"對 是韓華不願意 可是因為我們不是直接跟韓華吧你是透過其他的廠商跟韓華採購 是嗎對 跟委員報告 這個合約在5月到期 我們全部都會解約第二個 我們M30在4月15號 中科院給我們建置的已經申請 現在在跟高雄市政府申請火工的一個執照我們4月15號 M30就可以自製了 以上說明"},{"start":7922.295,"end":7925.736,"text":"局長我要的不是這種說明我剛剛說的是你們說我們彈藥缺如果連這種彈藥你說以後多久以後才可以開始尤其高雄市政府因為我們這個牽涉到我們剛剛之前也在關切的那些其他的彈藥的問題我今天特別提出M30這個部分是因為這個案子已經拖三年我們在這個部分沒有辦法及時他當時拿不到112年"},{"start":7949.683,"end":7955.15,"text":"2月得標113年就應該要拿到輸出許可對不對那時候為什麼沒有解約"},{"start":7956.704,"end":7977.404,"text":"那時候是韓華直接說明說他們是因為政府的問題希望能展現那這個案子我們也經過一個國防採購司召集我們我們就給他一個韓華政府就是跟他們政府的協商所以才允許他那這個合約的期限已經到了我們給他的時間就是在下個五月份五月份拿不出來我們就一約我們來解約然後就按我們的政府採購法來合約來執行"},{"start":7982.168,"end":8007.397,"text":"所以照理說我們沒有按照原始合約113年他沒有拿到輸出許可的時候不管什麼理由因為他得標他就是他可以提供而且照媒體的報導其實我們還有其他的國家還有其他的廠商是可以拿到相關的這些原物料的可是我們並沒有這樣做你一拖又拖了兩年然後到今年的五月才要幫他解約這個"},{"start":8008.937,"end":8028.967,"text":"有兩個問題存在第一就是我們每次在說我們非常急的時候是騙人的因為你到現在已經超過三年好像也不急你還讓他拖延了兩年第二在我們所有當我們說我們動藥很缺的時候我們到後來如果不足我們都有理由幫"},{"start":8029.867,"end":8035.392,"text":"很多的就幫很多的廠商去幫他們講話甚至幫他們現在要幫他們解套所以就這個部分我今天為什麼會特別提這個案子出來講是因為當你需要很多高價單要剛剛在說整合的時候今天我們沒有時間繼續做探討我們光是我們美製跟國造"},{"start":8053.027,"end":8073.801,"text":"一個現在已經在用的這樣的一個武器裝備魚叉飛彈跟雄風飛彈我們都沒有辦法整合你還有很多的雷達或者其他的系統要整合你們說的非常簡單所以就這個部分我以後還有時間做探討那我們也希望可以有做一個最後的一個說明副部長就這個案子會怎麼處理"},{"start":8078.991,"end":8095.324,"text":"後續我們會依照剛剛軍備局長所講的就是說假設合約到期如果沒辦法執行的話我們要按照契約來做他合約早就到期了我們順便想要知道輸出許可在5月份沒有輸出許可這是你們後來給他延期的我們現在講的是原始的你採購標準的時候那時候113年他就應該要提供至少如果你給180天的緩衝期你至少在113年初其實也應該要提供了"},{"start":8108.954,"end":8124.964,"text":"所以就這個部分不要去斟酌那幾天了啦你已經拖了三年就這個部分我們不會再給他展援就是依照採購室給我們你有一次展援其實已經很不合理了因為你還有其他的來源當我們"},{"start":8127.887,"end":8138.258,"text":"什麼樣的利益你已經損害到我們的戰力啊你已經有一些空隙產生了然後還有一個時間差這個都已經對我們產生很大的影響如果它不是那麼必要你當初為什麼那麼早招標如果你當初這麼早招標急著要那樣的預算你就應該要如期如始如止"},{"start":8149.71,"end":8151.532,"text":"把它完成我們已經講過很多延宕的案子如果這些都沒有辦法好好的控管我們很難相信你們再更困難或者要更多的高價或者更多的比較"},{"start":8165.268,"end":8183.107,"text":"可能先進的這樣的武器裝備可以做到更好我們會有所質疑這個部分我們還是希望儘速的去處理這樣的案子我們希望知道說像透過外交途徑去協助廠商解決這也是非常不恰當的"},{"start":8184.068,"end":8207.033,"text":"今天他如果沒有辦法自己取得就可以拿到標案然後他出事了才要我們去幫他解決這樣的問題這個都是對我們國防的這個很多的就是我們的制度上面會產生很大的傷害這個部分副部長還有局長就這些我們希望可以有效的一個解決的方案可不可以好 謝謝好 謝謝馬委員的質詢"},{"start":8216.637,"end":8232.1,"text":"下面我們請沈波洋委員質詢謝謝主席 而且副部長 謝謝"},{"start":8240.678,"end":8260.267,"text":"沈委員好副部長好那這個因為我們今天這個最主要還是針對我們這一個不管是防空系統等等之類要來做這個研討那當然因為我們現在在這一個預算上面還有在卡關那我相信呢在下個禮拜我們在審這個相關條例的時候呢應該會"},{"start":8261.387,"end":8281.232,"text":"針對防空系統會有更多的說明因為我覺得有時候在防空系統在回答的時候其實也蠻容易回答到機密事項的所以我現在是想討論就是說因為畢竟從這個去年預算提到現在已經有蠻大的一個空窗期所以我現在想知道的就是說在這個空窗期我們能夠做什麼趕快去彌補這個戰力的空缺"},{"start":8282.833,"end":8301.863,"text":"這個是我在閱讀的今年一月的時候的一份美軍的報告這份報告叫做關鍵基礎設施的實施的保護指引雖然它講的是關鍵基礎設施但是其實說真的都是針對這種小型無人機的威脅基本上我想說應該是適用在國防部的身上"},{"start":8302.503,"end":8318.859,"text":"那裡面呢強調這個所謂的強化隱蔽跟外圍這三個的概念那我就想說因為強化這個我想大概不是什麼太難的事情大概是我原本就有在做就是比如說既有的一些防禦的物理上的措施就是你在物理上就可以直接去防禦"},{"start":8319.72,"end":8338.469,"text":"那這個隱蔽目前來講我們因為隱蔽畢竟在這個報告裡面他說這個隱蔽的成效是最好的然後它的成本也不高那當然它會有很先進很先進的技術比如說像這個微波啊雷射啊等等的但它也有講的是非常一般的技術比如說像我們本來的干擾"},{"start":8339.349,"end":8360.574,"text":"所以就是說我們現在國軍如果說我們從強化隱蔽外圍這個概念來出發的話在我們的防空系統還沒有完全建制完整之前我們會面對到比如說這種無人機的這個飽和攻擊啊什麼等等之類的我們針對這幾項有沒有什麼就是現行我們正在補救的方式至少能夠讓我們撐過這段時期"},{"start":8363.598,"end":8391.385,"text":"第一個部分是委員所提出來這一個美國戰爭部聯合跨機構特遣部隊4014陸軍他成立的一個部隊他在今年的1月30號他頒訂了這樣的一個指引那國防部也看到這個相關的指引其實現在這幾個核心概念是我們現在國防部也在也在積極在做的事情第一個部分是有關這個加固的部分就是說如何強化建築物的設施結構"},{"start":8392.465,"end":8420.344,"text":"所以我們對目前國軍的剛剛我在前面的報告裡面有提到說對於國軍現在的固定的指揮所跟固定的重要設施我們從去年前年已經開始做了一些檢討以及檢測那會從今年開始我們做一些加固的一些設施這是對於固定的部分當然也撫以有關相關機動的部分那第二個部分是有關這個隱蔽的部分它這個隱蔽它最主要的概念說就是希望能夠透過隱蔽偽裝"},{"start":8422.085,"end":8431.112,"text":"降低你的視覺的欺騙 可視度的部分讓無人機的操作所跟無人機能夠難以辨識目標那這個部分我們強化的部分包含到隱蔽偽裝我們也加構了相關的一個偽裝網希望能夠改變"},{"start":8439.258,"end":8455.823,"text":"所有的這個固定建築物外面的一些設施或者加強這個隱蔽的作為讓它的外圍跟衛星上面以及無人機的操作所在實際操作上面很困難去發現到我們固定設施實際的一個位置"},{"start":8456.343,"end":8482.842,"text":"那有關外圍周邊防護的部分它最大的這個核心是它能夠擴大安全的距離並且建立周邊的防護降低無人機接近目標的一個機會那這當然跟我們營區外圍的一個空域的管制有很大的關係但我們在營安條例裡面也已經律定相關的營區都不能有無人機能夠進入跟飛行我們也會做相關的通報以及運用營區智慧戰鬥的方式來應應簡單跟委員做個說明"},{"start":8484.983,"end":8510.836,"text":"因為外圍就是說最後一個外圍這邊當然指的就是說偵測的範圍要變得更廣就是說不能只是傳統的偵測範圍但是這個又牽扯到我們整個的防空系統的建制也是的確我們現在在卡關的部分那裡面有提到一點我覺得特別的重要就是說他有特別提到說現在美軍在訓練的時候他會特別去強調我們的訓練人員就是最後一行他說去觀察那個操作者的行為而不是飛行器的行為"},{"start":8511.516,"end":8525.892,"text":"比如說他們過往花了很大的心力就是整個防空系統建設也絕對是針對飛行器但他們發現在觀察人的行為的時候對他們有很強的一個注意那當然我們現在在這一個購買的過程當中我們跟著都是最先進的技術"},{"start":8526.673,"end":8551.511,"text":"但既然台灣現在作為美國重要的一個盟友然後在對付中國的這樣一個侵略的可能的時候其實說真的如果他們有這樣的一個指引跟建議其實說真的我們自己就可能可以先來試試看就是說因為有時候我們對於對方可能比他們更了解那我們去觀察他們所操作的行為然後去針對這件事情或許更能夠有效這個所謂的飽和攻擊"},{"start":8552.572,"end":8572.586,"text":"那剛剛前面這幾個就是分層整合跟這一個向外延伸剛剛副部長已經講過可能我就不再多說但總之因為現在剛剛講的這些事情它的成本不一定要那麼高那它在我們原有的預算上面應該是都還有支應的空間那我們就是希望能夠在極大化這個效益之下先把我們這個空窗席先撐過去"},{"start":8573.627,"end":8598.778,"text":"那接下來因為從審查一直到增值一直到這個會期的結束我們都不知道到底國防預算還有我們新的這個特別條例到底能不能夠通過畢竟特別條例通過完以後還有預算案的審查有的這還有好幾步那希望在這個當中我們先把這個剛剛講的這個SOP先把它建立起來這個就是希望國防部能夠幫忙的地方"},{"start":8599.558,"end":8616.207,"text":"接下來就是說這個是我在之前質詢其實已經問過因為時間的關係我可能今天也再不多說就是關於情報合作交流的部分因為今天的題目是在講伊朗的發生的這個事情我們可以看到情報看起來還是非常的有用有效的去減少將近這個"},{"start":8617.748,"end":8645.347,"text":"就成了對方的飛彈所以如果我們今天要情報做交流我們之前有特別去強調我們國防部一直都有人員在海外做這些相關的交流這個人員能不能夠增加這是我們過往諮詢一直在提醒的因為這一次伊朗的事情我覺得情報的交換又變成是一個重點但目前進行到什麼樣的地步到底有多少人我覺得不適合在這邊做回答所以這個我先過去"},{"start":8647.808,"end":8662.387,"text":"那接下來呢這一個事情稍微比較稍微我覺得比較重要一點就是這個是最近這個國防部有公告這個體位區分標準但它其實大部分因為我們有免疫我們有替代疫我們有這一個常備疫"},{"start":8663.448,"end":8686.553,"text":"我們現在是很多是跟免疫跟替代疫這一邊中間這個標準是看到有不少民眾的反彈那當然本來應該是內政部的事項不過因為這個標準跟軍運局又有關係所以我想說還是要來問一下國防部我覺得比較重要的一點就是說就是為什麼當時要做這一個體位區分標準它的原由到底是什麼是否可以說明第二個就是"},{"start":8687.293,"end":8707.088,"text":"假設今天有這個必要我們也沒有辦法但是畢竟比如說他今天有可能本來是免疫的那他要進入到替代醫替代醫一樣他現在還是有心訊而且心訊可能拉長那如果他真的會進去到這一邊不管他是性別不安等等之類的在這一個體系有沒有配套措施"},{"start":8708.128,"end":8726.583,"text":"如果說你今天一定要把這一個標準做改變那改變了之後他必須要到做這個新訓或者他要去甚至進入到這個常備役的時候他的配套措施是什麼我覺得這個蠻重要的是否可以先做這兩點來回答我簡單先跟委員做回答細部的部分我請軍醫局局長做說明"},{"start":8727.148,"end":8749.933,"text":"那第一個部分是要修正這個兵役的體會標準的部分因為我們比較在亞洲所有的國家包含到新加坡跟南韓他們所有輕狀人員的免疫力大概在5%左右也就是說100個人有5個人是因為符合兵役的標準不用當兵那台灣我們檢討過去的免疫力大概高達到16.8%"},{"start":8752.193,"end":8770.275,"text":"所以內政部考量整個醫療科技進步跟其他亞洲徵兵制度國家的政策也檢討到橫平性所以我們他們在這個去年5月9號還請國安部來建議通盤修正整個體會的區分標準那第二個部分就是軍事局在接受到這一個"},{"start":8771.917,"end":8797.62,"text":"有關這個醫政司內政部醫政司的來函之後非常的謹慎所以他也已經從去年的5月開始啟動他召集了77個單位這中間包含到衛福部相關的醫院以及專家完成了8次的一個研修的會議也多次的拜會醫政司確立雙方的共識所以這個條例在1月份開始公佈後面6月份再施行"},{"start":8798.18,"end":8815.825,"text":"那這中間的體位區分標準會在中間做一個滾動式的修正假設民眾或者是相關的單位覺得這個條例在執行上面有相關的問題我們會做一個滾動式的調整那有關這一個議政的有關這個替代的部分我請議局局長來"},{"start":8818.092,"end":8847.337,"text":"鮑威好軍醫局這邊做簡單的回覆我們這次的體位區分最重要的精神在於說我們依據我們現代的這些醫療的進步來講很多的疾病上面來講它在治療完之後它的功能上面來講有逐漸的恢復的部分第二個我們在這次的修正裡面最大的改變就是把原來從我們常備疫替代疫到免疫這三分法把它變成說常備疫替代疫AB跟我們的免疫的部分"},{"start":8847.757,"end":8867.535,"text":"那主要的目的也是希望利用細緻的這樣的分別不是用按照疾病判斷就一刀切而他本身有他的功能性來講是他配合我們這個義別上面來講他情物上面的這個特性我們讓他能夠進來主要目的也是維持我們的這個兵役的公平性也能夠符合他自己本身的身體部分"},{"start":8868.676,"end":8894.662,"text":"我稍微再用一點時間我稍微追問一下當然第一個剛剛講說就是剛剛說在世界各國5%那台灣這邊是稍微比較高但因為台灣之前也報過很多這種各式各樣不管是造假等等的事情所以這個可能要考慮進去這是第一個第二個就是說確實醫學有進步但醫學進步不代表它在醫學的治療之下它就有恢復到可以來做這些事情這一定要實質判定"},{"start":8895.322,"end":8914.009,"text":"所以這一個的實質判定還有就是我剛剛講的你今天就算在醫學判定連接到今天兵役說他可以服的時候他進入到那一個環境之下跟他在一般的環境一定會不一樣那這個配套措施就是在兵役環境下針對這些新納進來的人他的配套措施是什麼這個一定要出來因為"},{"start":8914.969,"end":8937.1,"text":"他才會感受到安心他才會知道講說OK那我現在知道你的標準是什麼你為何要做這一個那我進去之後又有什麼樣的資源可以做輔助然後中間可能又會有定期的比如說會不管是要診斷或者說要看要適應這些項目如果都有完整的話這個時候人民才會知道說我們到底想要做什麼事情"},{"start":8937.64,"end":8952.887,"text":"所以我覺得這一方面因為我覺得要趕著上路之前一定要先了解就是現在的人民在想什麼那我記得在應該是在在應該是上個禮拜吧我們也有把相關的一些澄清書應該也都有交給國防部對不對所以這個如果後續還有什麼討論的話我們再繼續在到委員會再繼續來追這一題"},{"start":8958.709,"end":8974.737,"text":"那這個最後有一個就是空軍的問題我這個很快速帶過去大概30秒就好了就是說因為我們現在這個一年內要做完這個體能的這個完測那通常我們是要求要一年之內那結果我們就接到"},{"start":8975.217,"end":8992.516,"text":"有一些陳情就是說因為有一些長官要求就是說第一季就要八成的人那他本來期待是說我希望一年之內我慢慢訓練我慢慢達到結果有一些長官希望他們在前三個月就要先做到百分之八十就要做到那後來詢問的理由當然是因為有一些長官他可能也要一些"},{"start":8994.057,"end":9011.749,"text":"為了一些獎勵制度等等之類的但我覺得有時候雖然KPI是好事但如果因為長官這樣子想對下面這樣要求對他來講本來是一年的事情你就硬要擠壓到第一季做完這個對基層也是一個負擔這個當然也不是只有在這件事情上面任何KPI制度的設計都會有這樣的問題"},{"start":9013.65,"end":9030.061,"text":"所以是否可以回去稍微跟基層的一些長官溝通一下這件事就是說不要說為了這個本來它是好事結果你把好事變成對於基層的壓力我覺得這可能是不妥當的事情這個有事務部長做一個最後的說明就好謝謝"},{"start":9030.401,"end":9047.343,"text":"第一個部分是我們現在年度的基本體能建設我們最主要是希望官兵能夠自主訓練在一年裡面他可以則任何時間讓我們北中南東的所有建設場地實施建設所以並沒有強制他要在哪一個時間之內去完成建設"},{"start":9048.064,"end":9075.888,"text":"那第二個部分就是當然有一些基層的單位的主觀簡單說他們的做法是希望在上半年或在一定的時間之內完成監測假設不合格人員他們可以集中以及針對他不合格的項目來實施訓練讓他們在年度裡面可以達到訓練合格的標準所以剛剛委員所知道我們回去之後我們會加強宣導就是在配套的措施上面如果去強化"},{"start":9076.748,"end":9104.596,"text":"不要造成基層部隊的一些困擾讓他們還是有選擇對 就是讓他們有選擇而且針對他不合格的項目後半段可能有一些時間可能大概上半年完成建設如果不合格的項目可能我們可以集中對他的缺失跟不合格的項目集中如何來針對他的缺失來加強訓練當然在下半年所以當然這是很多基層部隊在執行上面的一些個別的做法那我們下去之後會加強做一些宣導"},{"start":9105.216,"end":9109.238,"text":"跟配套的措施好那就再拜託了謝謝副部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們因為開會的時間比較長我們等一下林楚英委員諮詢完畢以後休息五分鐘現在請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9135.884,"end":9138.549,"text":"謝主席 主席有請副部長請副部長林委員好"},{"start":9146.255,"end":9173.854,"text":"副部長我會從這個時事先開始問起當然我們今天關心的是有關於從伊朗戰爭來做借鏡但是其實在這個美伊衝突發生的這一陣子也有蠻多人關心到是中國怎麼突然收手了呢共軍有13天沒有擾台但是如果根據統計共機是減少了但是軍艦部署其實是持續的"},{"start":9175.035,"end":9186.34,"text":"顯然壓力沒有真正的下降只是在過去大家比較關注的防空的這個部分它變少了2025年共軍擾台是3764架次年增23%那麼共艦進入應變區是2640艘次"},{"start":9195.905,"end":9212.351,"text":"那年增是7%喔那麼國防部有沒有針對這樣的狀況到底是一種所謂戰術的變換還是因為剛好我們也在討論國防特別預算的部分全球都在關注的同時喔這算不算是一種障眼法國防部怎麼看"},{"start":9215.587,"end":9243.746,"text":"委員好 我是秦次市市長剛剛委員所提醒的這點其實都是我們在觀察的一個重點因為在這段時間的確在國際上也有很多重要的事情發生包括包括中國兩會的這個開他們的會議那另外就是伊朗的這個戰事那我想這些都是我們在長期需要觀察的那至於您剛剛提醒到13天共機沒有動態"},{"start":9245.808,"end":9256.123,"text":"前兩天他就開始有動態了我想您也注意到我想這個都需要我們一段時間來密切的觀察那如果有進一步具體的東西我們私下再跟委員做報告"},{"start":9256.786,"end":9260.289,"text":"對於這樣的變換當然我認為永遠是來者不善啦如果真的他對台灣要表示善意的話這個對著台灣的這些飛彈啊相關的部署早就應該撤掉了我覺得他可能是換了另外一種套路我想這兩天在社群媒體上很多人都轉po給我們民進黨的立法委員"},{"start":9279.147,"end":9295.531,"text":"我本人當然也收到了那就是呢現在是不是連國際都在示警除了明著來暗著的所謂灰色侵擾更是逐步形成當中這些民兵船不是要捕魚而是數千艘的中國漁船呈現在台灣周邊的一個異常的部署"},{"start":9299.292,"end":9326.426,"text":"那麼這是不是一種明暗之間包括連灰色作戰一起加入的另外一種狀態那這個部分到底我們首先這個訊息正確嗎那麼這樣的一個訊息他所釋放的包括他後面的意涵以及我們如何來應對當然這種民兵確實國防部似乎也只能看著好像是變成跟海委會比較相關但是這樣的灰色作戰的"},{"start":9327.546,"end":9334.963,"text":"增加的狀況底下甚至已經成了一堵海上來包圍台灣的時候那麼國防部跟相關單位又怎麼來看"},{"start":9336.38,"end":9357.16,"text":"第一個部分是剛剛委員所講的上述的報導這個海域裡面活動的船隻它具備了數量龐大高度的同步性而且呈現類似海上封鎖線陣列的一個方式所以它具有軍事意涵上的海上編隊行動看起來它已經不是一個單純的一個這個魚撈的一個作業"},{"start":9360.183,"end":9382.706,"text":"那我們後續研判中共也有可能運用引民帶軍的這個模式強化特定海域的一個控制能力那第三點跟委員報告就是說當然在國防部的部分我們都持續的運用勤奸政的手段來掌握周邊海上的動態並且也會運用多元的管道跟周邊的有門國家共同來關注這個區域情勢裡面的一個發展"},{"start":9383.841,"end":9392.27,"text":"其實這些提醒我也希望透過質詢以及你們的回應的時候能夠讓更多的民眾了解因為在野黨不斷的要去強調是說這些軍購的過程都是不透明的不公開的民眾不知道的那麼其實本席從媒體出來"},{"start":9400.598,"end":9425.114,"text":"我也認為其實適度的透過全民的溝通是非常重要的首先我就要肯定你們日前透過中央通訊社把這個所謂軍購的流程公開讓民眾知道因為很多的民眾事實上在過去他們可能是在最後一刻我們確定得到了美國或是哪一個國家的武器之後甚至於這些武器來了"},{"start":9425.674,"end":9441.155,"text":"他們才會知道但是他們不能清楚的是其實在前期從計畫再到建案的文件然後我們前面的評估需求可能就會高達一到兩年然後才能夠去"},{"start":9442.296,"end":9456.61,"text":"提出發架書的邀請跟要求然後還要給AIT然後透過美國的防安合作局然後才有機會一步一步的跨部會審查進入國務院然後才給來所謂的發架書那"},{"start":9458.932,"end":9475.491,"text":"我本席其實覺得非常開心的是至少朝野有共識3月15號要到期也就是昨天要到期這個發架書有三張有三個部分能夠在這個之前同意國防部授權先去處理但是很多民眾甚至於不懂什麼叫做發架書"},{"start":9476.912,"end":9497.74,"text":"甚至於發架書它的用意是什麼那麼至少我覺得要跟全民來做溝通讓民眾知道其實在這樣的過程當中不是不透明而是很多的部分在前期做的所謂文書工作或是討論的工作其實是要花一些相對的時間而且人家能夠賣我們什麼或者是在他們的產線上面包括後續還要跟"},{"start":9504.662,"end":9509.347,"text":"相關的廠商做締約其實都有很長的一段時間我要強調的是我們談到的不論是剛剛我們今天題目所定的國際局勢的變化美伊之間的戰爭伊朗之間的戰爭又或者是現在中國對我們的從層封鎖這些都是非常重要但是要購得這些軍購都是要時間的"},{"start":9528.985,"end":9549.919,"text":"但是就如同我做這張圖一樣如果現在火就在前面燒但是我們這些水源是被一層一層的鎖鎖住的話那真的是不只是原水救不了進火是連水都沒有所以我想要問的就是目前從去年11月這個案子提出來到現在喔除了有3月15號的這個有"},{"start":9552.04,"end":9574.476,"text":"幾個重要的採購的發價書我們現在有機會可以先鬆綁之外後續還有多少其實是有可能因為卡在發價書或者是更多的期程上面如果不及早審這個預算不審8年1.25兆就會被卡關的部分在今天質詢台上可以說的是不是也可以讓我們知道一下我請站位市長做說"},{"start":9578.446,"end":9603.584,"text":"報告委員,我們的確還有幾個案子目前還在美方這邊做審查要跟委員報告的是大運雖然同意我們去簽署發價書但是後面最重要的還是預算要通過因為我們在第一個年度裡面基本上就要支付3%到5%的生效款是個案的狀況而定"},{"start":9605.97,"end":9609.134,"text":"那後續的話如果說因為"},{"start":9610.083,"end":9637.773,"text":"大約並不是一年365天都在開會的我們比較擔心的是如果這個時間點它剛好就落在會期跟會期之間因為它的效期通常大概就是就從前面看到大概是30到45天的時間很可能會造成這個合約沒有辦法做下去那另外跟委員補充報告發價書它本身並不是一個合約"},{"start":9639.451,"end":9659.369,"text":"Later of acceptance是我們同意美方依據他開出來的條件去幫我們預約所以重要的還是在後面預約的那個過程他會給我們一個時間如果說就像海馬仕一樣他這一次完全不給言的原因是因為他要去做同意預約一旦我們錯過這個時間點"},{"start":9661.371,"end":9677.008,"text":"那我們就是另外再開案子預約所以這個部分我們還是預請大院能夠給予國防部這邊支持能夠盡早的針對條例還有預算的部分能夠做審查那我們後面能夠順利來執行"},{"start":9678.109,"end":9693.422,"text":"好 所以你的言下之意就是在這樣的一個簽署的發價書的過程當中他只是我們同意了因為接下來還要跟一些廠商來做意願而這個才是真正最後包括價格包括數量包括期程 對嗎對所以"},{"start":9695.543,"end":9719.64,"text":"發價書的意思是其他所有想要購買這些武器的國家先透過國家給予了前期的這種所謂類似下訂單但是不是真正的只是需求提出來好那這個部分其實時間點上到底有多急迫或者是還剩下多少時間就像你所說的只剩下30天到40天嗎還是多少時間"},{"start":9721.701,"end":9739.704,"text":"包含預約的部分他會按照個案的狀況而有不同那海馬仕當然會比較急一點的原因是美方已經告訴我們他會在上半年也就是七月之前他會配合其他的幾個案子來進行預約那其他的部分"},{"start":9741.505,"end":9755.189,"text":"標槍跟托式飛彈的部分因為我們採購的數量並不是很多我們還是會配合美國陸軍海軍陸戰隊跟其他採購國家會在他的批量裡面去做採購至於確切的這個時間我們會繼續去追蹤"},{"start":9758.68,"end":9780.795,"text":"好謝謝你給我這個明確的時間點喔那麼下個禮拜我們的召委這個陳冠廷委員會來排相關的這樣的一個預算的審查我們也希望到時候能夠趕得上這個時間點因為這個保護國家沒有在分顏色沒有在分政黨的這是所有在這個島上在這個國家裡面所有的人通通必須要面對的安全問題好謝謝好我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9814.943,"end":9815.107,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10126.581,"end":10130.302,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請劉許廷委員上台諮詢謝謝主席副部長有請請副部長副部長 午安"},{"start":10150.591,"end":10169.537,"text":"這個今天大家針對這個美伊戰爭的一些最新的一個狀況然後一些內容上面的互相借鏡這個請國防部來做一個專案報告那我想吳俄戰爭跟近期的中東的衝突已經跟世界展示無人機大量的使用基本上甚至是改變了這個戰爭的規則"},{"start":10171.798,"end":10196.271,"text":"不管在獲取人員的訓練或者是反制措施其實都是各國國防政策非常重要的一個改變的軸線大家好好來做研究那麼賴總統也講今年我們要強化台灣的防空有台灣之盾等等的這樣一個倡議那麼針對無人機的部分大概分成主動反制、被動防禦還有引進新興科技這幾個部分今天花一點點時間來跟這個中副部長來做一個探討"},{"start":10198.232,"end":10216.794,"text":"這我想這次大家在看待這次的中東衝突的時候其實大家都可以發現伊朗在這次戰爭好像才是採取不對稱作戰的一方他們大量的使用自殺無人機還有低成本的火箭攻擊各地中東各地的民間或者是軍事設施因此有所謂的飽和打擊一說"},{"start":10217.535,"end":10239.944,"text":"因為我成本低啊所以我的無人機也好自殺無人機也好可以去換掉你昂貴的防空飛彈那因為我量大所以總可以在這個攔截的地方找到破口並且造成大量的損耗這段時間甚至美軍要把韓國的這個薩德飛彈要移往中東喔這顯然這個對於軍武跟飛彈的消耗大概也不是空穴來風啦那我想這是一個蠻"},{"start":10241.425,"end":10255.136,"text":"值得台灣借鏡的一個地方畢竟大家現在講說中共的這個動作頻頻嘛大家也會設定國安的威脅來自於中國大陸那麼根據中共這個北方工業集團去年在珠海展示飛龍300D"},{"start":10256.477,"end":10273.248,"text":"查打一體無人機 號稱單價低於一萬美元可以用於攻擊裝甲目標 執行偵查任務等等小型的FPV的無人機有些是拿來當自殺的無人機甚至有些低的 規模小的 成本幾百美元而已而不只他們在這個無人機的"},{"start":10274.448,"end":10299.48,"text":"設計等等方面有一定的能耐本事他們在關鍵的原料包含稀土包含鋰電池等等在原物料的技術跟門檻上面大概也有很大的一個試戰率甚至有變成戰略物資管制出口的這樣一個狀況那我的問題是這樣現在國防部要建構低成本的攔截的武器請問在國防部的規劃裡面這成本的射算大概是一個什麼樣的狀況因為小型的無人機FPU自殺無人機換戰車那成本是一換一萬"},{"start":10302.381,"end":10330.249,"text":"我一台無人機換很昂貴的戰車大型的無人機我如果直接用自殺的方式或者轟炸的方式去處理軍事的設施的話成本大概是一比一千啦這其實都是以小換大的這樣的一個方式如果對岸有大量的無人機的機隊採取了飽和攻擊的這樣子的一個方式我們的這個成本的設算要怎麼樣來設算才符合所謂的低成本攔截因為低成本攔截是我們的目標嘛低成本攔截數字大概是多少呢是不是可以請國防部示意一下"},{"start":10332.009,"end":10357.45,"text":"委員好 最近是在這邊做了幾個說明第一個其實我們整個從攻擊造成的損害來去評估它這個威脅因此去採取低中高剛剛所報告的三層方式而且要綜合運用要能夠高度感知有效的鑑別之後來去採取最有效的反制的手段那當然在我們火力資源協調程序當中"},{"start":10358.211,"end":10375.007,"text":"以最低效能最具效果的方式火力來去完成這樣的防禦是最有效的手段以上說明所以具體來講是用什麼樣的方式因為譬如說你們好像中科院比如說雷射啊或者是微波干擾等等這個看起來眼下看起來"},{"start":10375.768,"end":10404.874,"text":"好像是一個如果對方量很大好像也只有這樣的方式還是有別的方式我們現在如果面對這樣子的打擊或者是對方所謂用大量造成所謂飽和攻擊的狀況我們現在還是只能用防空飛彈來處理嗎還是有別的因應方式跟委員報告沒有我們剛剛所謂的低中高還有所謂的低成本除了飛彈防禦以外針對這個無人機中大型或者是小型無人機在戰場上各種作戰階段上的洗腦所以我們規劃了低中高三層的方式"},{"start":10405.394,"end":10431.262,"text":"那另外也採取主動被動軟硬砂的手段無人機的反制系統都在這個台灣之盾整個空域空城不同的階段當中來去做具體的規劃我瞭解你有低中高三個層次但現在大家在問的是成本的射算就是我們的低中高如何符合一個相對大家可以承受的這個成本的比例因為對方會以量來壓低成本嘛所以他可能就是最大型而且便宜的無人機的生產國嘛"},{"start":10432.202,"end":10452.146,"text":"那我們的不對稱作戰的戰略優勢就因為這樣子對方的量體而被大量的稀釋嘛那尤其是現在大家還要分比如說我要飛鴻供應鏈當然它有資安被控制的需求這我本期完全同意但是喔這個如果要完全走所謂的飛鴻供應鏈比如說我們同樣是無人機或者是這樣成本上的落差到底是多少國防部有沒有精準的射算"},{"start":10453.663,"end":10467.151,"text":"當然就像對照現在遠程火箭中共的這個遠火PCH-101它單枚火箭的造價那因此我們去採取目前用來最中高空的這個飛彈來去對應那當然"},{"start":10469.713,"end":10487.129,"text":"是不符合成本的需求所以我們才會在剛剛報告我們希望能夠研發低成本反火箭的防空系統所以因此是以這樣子相對應第一個它的造價第二個它所會造成攻擊的損害來去做相應系統上的建置跟接戰的選定"},{"start":10488.496,"end":10507.488,"text":"好 基本上這本席只是要做一下提醒啦因為你如果真的我要在要求你在這裡講出具體的成本恐怕國防部也會有點為難這本席完全都理解國防有些事情是這樣子的嘛但是我要提醒的是這個對方可能會用這樣的方式啦用大量低成本的方式打消耗其實我們最壓力最大國防部壓力最大也是消耗啦"},{"start":10507.988,"end":10527.487,"text":"希望在成本的設算方面能夠想出一套的方法比如說中科院的微波干擾跟雷射武器等等它能不能趕快的有一些比較具體的進度而且這個無人機反制系統的部署其實也不是新興預算應該是例行性都有在執行的這些相關的項目國防部預計要2026年完成相關的系統部署現在的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":10529.366,"end":10543.201,"text":"包委員你所說的系統部署指的是無人機反制無人機反制無人機反制系統就是所謂UDS系統都按照建案的期程規劃在今年會獲得各個固定設施的無人系統的部署"},{"start":10543.735,"end":10571.669,"text":"那陸軍有一個無人機的防禦系統目前按照採購作業的進程正在進行相關的驗收以及後續的接裝的作業這個因為本期剛調來這個外交國防委員會這跟無人機反制系統的報告你會後提供一份讓我可以比較清楚的了解這個相關的一些部署跟騎乘這個麻煩國防部會後來進行這個提供那我另外要提醒跟補充一下的是有關於關鍵基礎設施的防禦"},{"start":10572.449,"end":10597.647,"text":"因為對方如果用飽和攻擊的方式來處理比如說現在大家對油價等等非常敏感那我們的天然氣是大量的依賴這個國外的進口那這些地方很有可能如果真的不幸啊爆發了軍事衝突的時候這些除氣槽啊等等會不會成為被鎖定攻擊的這樣子的一個對象那麼針對這些特別敏感而且會牽一髮而動全身的關鍵基礎設施的防禦攻勢啊現在國防部有哪一些的因應措施"},{"start":10599.497,"end":10627.535,"text":"各位報告我是中科院院長那個我想上禮拜警政署已經開過了公開招商的說明會所有關鍵基礎設施的無人機防護系統會在明年底前完成建置明年底前完成建置好那同樣嘛那這一部分也請這個國防部提供報告我就是希望整體針對無人機的防禦跟反制措施啊我希望了解國防部明確的這樣子的一個期程另外我想問一下這副部長來回答好了這個國防部去年八月就送了無人機戰鬥部隊的加擠嘛"},{"start":10629.156,"end":10639.103,"text":"這大家都會同意的啊那為什麼拖到了今年的二月才生效中間有遇到什麼困難嗎需不需要我們幫忙講講話雖然現在已經通過了但是我們還是趕快關心一下"},{"start":10642.645,"end":10669.553,"text":"委員好 我是資源規劃司司長這個案子我們去年8月送給行政院那因為行政院還是有一個審查程序所以在會了相關部會以後在去年底有了一個審查意見給我們那我們大概在今年的1月5號又再把陳副意見報上去那也感謝行政院的協助在2月13號通過無人機部隊列入戰鬥部隊加急來指令他當初的審查意見是什麼原因才讓這件事延長這麼久"},{"start":10671.383,"end":10694.275,"text":"我想因為無人機部隊對國家對我們來講是一個新建制的部隊啦那包括各部會包括海巡署都有相關的一個這樣子的一個規劃所以行政院主要各個部會還是對於它的一個任務性質跟各部會的一個不同的一個執行性質跟編制在做一個討論主要是這個樣子所以大概到去年底的時候才把審查意見給我們"},{"start":10695.296,"end":10701.329,"text":"去年底的時候才把審查意見給你們所以你們八月送的時候他拖了四個月才給你們審查意見這個好像有點久吧"},{"start":10702.486,"end":10725.338,"text":"沒關係啦,我不為難你啦,因為我們現在政府都很強調國防優先,這本席也完全同意,本來就應該是這樣,而且政府一體嘛,那麼這樣子的一個,本來理論上應該是政府大家都會共同處理,在野黨也不會反對的這樣子的一個案子,你自己中間出現了一些delay,其實是有狀況,你如果難言之隱啦,有的時候利用一下立法院,讓我們幫基層的弟兄喊喊話,也都不是一件壞事啦,"},{"start":10725.998,"end":10749.569,"text":"我不希望內部的一些行政流程有一些相關的一些耽誤那我也要藉這個場合我要再次提醒你們聽就好了啦這個軍人待遇的這個全面增加期求式的增加是有必要的嘛因為當初你們提了一套分別增加的那會造成不願意往上升的狀況啊期求式增加才是對於軍人不管是將官也好士兵也好全部一體式的全面的支持嘛這個也才有助於你去培養新式的專業的"},{"start":10750.789,"end":10772.215,"text":"有強化的精兵的這樣子的一個部隊你才有辦法去操作未來的比如說未來是以無人機為主體的這樣一個戰爭模式沒有一定的專業門檻單靠義務役 單靠絞肉機好像也不是一個好的不對稱作戰的方式本期最後一點點時間來提醒一下希望國防部可以我相信國防部應該也不會反對啦希望我們行政院可以從善如流好啦 幾位辛苦啦 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10778.632,"end":10781.714,"text":"接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們有請我們副部長請副部長"},{"start":10802.23,"end":10825.441,"text":"華偉好 副部長 副部長 因為這兩年其實都在內政提示到國防外交來那國防外交其實它是一個相對專業而且嚴肅的問題所以很多問題就會跟副部長來就教那我們最近從烏克蘭的戰爭還有以色列的衝突我們可以檢視到一件事情就是世界各國這個先前的防空飛彈系統它到底有沒有用"},{"start":10826.161,"end":10852.975,"text":"那就以我們整個烏俄戰爭以來全球都注意到大量的無人機是未來戰爭的這個趨勢那與此同時呢俄羅斯也在2024年首次把這個極音速就是高超音速的這個飛彈武器投入實戰裡面那在去年九月的時候我們看到這個北京大閱兵中國也展示了他數種極音速的飛彈從反艦到對地一應俱全"},{"start":10853.675,"end":10862.871,"text":"那所以部長請問你看見世界各國這個防空飛彈系統目前對於極音速飛彈的這個防禦效果是有用還是沒有用"},{"start":10864.937,"end":10883.989,"text":"第一個委員所提這個無人機的飽和攻擊的確是未來還有這個這個飛彈的攻擊確實是未來戰場上重要的一個威脅那我們現在在構築這個台灣之盾的這個整個整體防禦系統最主要就是我們希望能夠做到高度"},{"start":10884.87,"end":10913.199,"text":"高度感知這件事情就是我們要建設非常多的sensor去了解敵人去發射不管他的極音速跟這個彈道飛彈或者是巡弋飛彈這要怎麼發射那第二個我們分高中低層來運用不同的武器來攔截他第三個是有效攔截那剛剛您講這一個所有的飛彈目前的整個全世界的防空飛彈防禦系統他確實沒有達沒有辦法去達到百分之百他只能從"},{"start":10914.76,"end":10931.954,"text":"這個有效的攔截率去檢討相對應的這個防空飛彈如何能夠有效的攔截所以對於這個攔截他當然對於防空系統上面沒辦法去達到百分之百但是他確實是相對應的防空武器確實有他的"},{"start":10933.075,"end":10961.629,"text":"為了因應整個中國解放軍的這個武力的威脅所以我們極力的發展這個台灣之盾嘛那台灣之盾是未來要整合整個美制的還有我們國造的這些飛彈系統來做完整的這個防空體系嘛對不對部長是那我們在盤點大概整個防空體系大概六種主要的防空武器嘛就是像中科院自己研發的這個強攻飛彈就是天空試行然後還有這個號稱可以射高達到70公里會站在攔截的第一線"},{"start":10963.589,"end":10986.757,"text":"還有愛國者 愛山飛行的真誠型天光飛彈三型的飛彈還有NASA這些都是為了要做我們完整我們的台灣之盾不過我們在這一次伊朗戰爭裡面看到日本好像在這一次的戰爭發現到一些事情就是它那個極音速飛彈的破壞力它後面很多都是中二的技術資源"},{"start":10987.777,"end":11011.418,"text":"所以他現在極力地要爭取金瓊金瓊是一個多層防導彈的防護系統主要目的是保護美國本土不要被洲際飛彈、超速飛彈、巡弋飛彈攻擊所以它的架構類似於二十世紀八零年代智能暖室的概念"},{"start":11012.239,"end":11019.744,"text":"那我想要請問副副長就是說台灣之盾跟美國現在這個金瓊是哪一個更能夠防守極音速飛彈的攻擊"},{"start":11021.084,"end":11043.782,"text":"我簡單跟委員報告就是這個金瓊跟台灣之盾它確實在這個構想還有層次上面有不太一樣第一個部分是美國防空系統這個有關美國金瓊的這個防空系統那最主要是因應整個全球威脅來做部署那台灣的部分是防禦我們整個本島防衛為主"},{"start":11045.003,"end":11066.821,"text":"那第二個部分就是層次上面會不同因為美國的金瓊它區分了太空、高空、中空以及低空四個層次那就我們目前構築台灣之盾是因應敵情威脅去檢討高中低層那第三個不是武器系統如果這兩個比較起來我們哪一個更適合如果為了安全來說哪一個更適合台灣"},{"start":11068.277,"end":11083.691,"text":"目前來看是台灣之頓比較適合因為你要考量到整個建制的經費以及需求以及防衛的需求上面去做檢討謝謝部長那另外一個問題要提到就是說其實很多會員都提到就是說"},{"start":11084.452,"end":11102.5,"text":"是當現在世界各地的主要戰場都跟美國相關的時候武器的製造跟運輸就非常非常的重要哪些國家可以拿到武器哪些國家必須等待這個一定有先後的問題嘛對不對那如果說我們中華民國現在如同國防部所說的必須要積極的防衛的話"},{"start":11104.386,"end":11117.229,"text":"我們要重視這個問題就是武器要趕快拿到手那部長美國提供武器是不是有先後順序是第一個問題第二個是台灣是不是列為優先的國家那如果不是的話要怎麼解決"},{"start":11121.624,"end":11145.069,"text":"鮑遠在近期美國宣布的資訊裡面,他已經提到了兩個重點第一個是願意針對自己的國防進行高額投資的國家第二個具有戰略關鍵性的國家我們台灣位於整個第一島鏈防守的關鍵位置所以當然我們在戰略上原本就具有重要性"},{"start":11146.471,"end":11161.146,"text":"在高額投資的部分事實上我們在過去這段時間下來我們每年國防預算大概都以百分之八以上在逐年成長也展現了我們願意去投資我們的國防那最重要的就是我們在"},{"start":11162.067,"end":11181.047,"text":"這一次特別預算裡面所有軍購案的協調過程當中美方都強烈的表達對我們籌獲各式重要武器裝備的支持從這幾點就可以看得出來事實上美方把我們列為一個重要而且優先的一個供售對象所以可以確保台灣可以優先的拿到武器嗎"},{"start":11183.124,"end":11197.825,"text":"國外問題就是這樣,我們比較重要,我們的投資也比較多,我們是不是優先獲得採購武器的國家?這個是民眾很擔心的事情。我舉一個例子好了,我們籌購了82套的海馬式多管火箭飛彈系統,"},{"start":11199.347,"end":11219.296,"text":"事實上在同一個時間跟美國籌購這一個同類型系統的不是只有我們而已但是在這個部分美國還是把我們列為一個優先工作的對象所以我們這個部分不僅優先獲得提供而且他提供的套數也比其他的國家更多"},{"start":11220.265,"end":11235.858,"text":"謝謝 因為其實本席以上的這些問題就是其實我們本席對軍購態度都是支持的因為我們要買好的 要買好用得到的然後最重要是可以及時叫貨的我想這個是這一次的重點那只要達到這些本席絕對支持我們國防的這些預算"},{"start":11236.539,"end":11263.176,"text":"那另外有幾個問題我大概再用一點時間就是跟我們台東有相關跟國防相關的問題第一個就是在這個三個會期其實本席有跟國防部來反映就是台東的一些我們的漁民有來陳情就是演訓的時候他們都沒有辦法出海的事情那當時國防部也承諾說會避開漁訓然後盡量時間不要跟漁訓來做衝突那這部分再請國防部這邊來繼續來做加強那另外就是在於整個"},{"start":11264.597,"end":11280.825,"text":"市民也說我們都支持國防但是你也要給我們一條小路啦他們沒有辦法補貼的時候要相對的補貼也要給他們那國防部這邊也有做一些但是有一個就是在中科院好像沒有這部分的計畫所以這個也要請副法官是來來督促一下中科院說這邊呢趕快研議好中科院要回答"},{"start":11289.737,"end":11300.184,"text":"中科院現在的補助是針對我們九棚基地所在的範圍之內那有牽涉到的相關的漁會我們進行補助那台東這個部分的演訓因為"},{"start":11301.533,"end":11327.227,"text":"我們關閉的海域就在九鵬基地這個部分那後面我們會繼續再按委員要求去做更多的彈性這個這邊再請言因為它最後也不可能是用來用漁會的區來限制嘛對不對漁民板就是會移動的還有就是最後一個問題就是也要幫我們國軍弟兄來講話那本期在選區服務的時候其實聽到很多國軍弟兄我們很好奇說你不是快退伍了嗎"},{"start":11328.087,"end":11351.002,"text":"他又留下來 他說因為他聽到加薪這件事情讓他覺得有正門的他說我決定留下來繼續再服務那這件事情是我自己的現任經驗我是義務役的軍醫下士我是一年四個月的役期當年我們要退伍的時候其實部隊的指揮官都會要求我們希望我們能夠留下來 為什麼因為好不容易培養出來的這些"},{"start":11352.143,"end":11379.557,"text":"軍中的人才他會因為疫情結束而離開這對部隊來講是很大的損害我們投資這麼多在國防預算上面我們買這麼多武器最終還是需要有人才來使用人才是重點所以我相信副部長也很支持這些事情所以這個方面是不是請國防部這邊我們一起來加油我們讓軍中的待遇讓地區的待遇能夠再增加然後讓他們安心的可以留在部隊裡面服務那這部分副部長是不是可以有更正面的回應"},{"start":11380.397,"end":11393.381,"text":"目前整個加薪的方案其實國安部已經有妥善的做一些規劃跟政策的說明那之前在之前已經也有詳細的做過報告謝謝副部長 以上質詢謝謝好 謝謝接下來請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":11411.294,"end":11414.357,"text":"好謝謝 召委我們請副部長請副部長黃委員好副部長好上禮拜五立法院有通過可以授權你們去簽那個發駕書簽了嗎是什麼時候簽的在他們加班是在禮拜"},{"start":11436.994,"end":11446.81,"text":"禮拜六的晚上好像特別加班就送到這個美國這個這個駐美軍協組就四分都簽了四分都簽了"},{"start":11450.931,"end":11474.944,"text":"發價書的這個部分我們在上個禮拜五大院同意我們簽署之後我們就已經立即知會美方那AITT這邊在上個禮拜就已經啟動程序所以我們這個3月15號的這個效期已經沒有問題好那之前還有一個3月底的這個什麼要付款的那個"},{"start":11477.79,"end":11504.488,"text":"這個部分要跟委員報告說明一下程序就是我們通知美方進行發架書的作業程序之後會由美國在台協會台北辦事處這邊完成我們已經提供的發架書內容的最後審核遞交給美國國防安和局然後做確認確認完之後再交給美國在台協會的華府辦公室跟我們駐美代表處來進行簽署"},{"start":11506.309,"end":11532.297,"text":"所以這個部分應該會所有的程序應該會在本週左右會完成好所以立法院能夠處理的現在對你們來說沒有困擾了是就世界下就是條例跟預算了是就剩下這個嘛對不對是確定了是好第二個今天這個報告裡頭有提到這個關於伊朗的這件事情請問這個副部長"},{"start":11535.262,"end":11543.416,"text":"這個美伊在打的時候啊你們會事先能夠預判伊朗會用什麼回擊美國會用什麼打嗎"},{"start":11545.497,"end":11568.808,"text":"這一個目前的整個美國跟伊朗的整個攻擊的方式就現在來看當然掀起都會以比較這個威力強大精準的沒有說有沒有超乎你們意料之外目前來看是因為戰爭的發生當然我們不太能夠預期它在什麼時候會發生我都講武器啦現在武器的運用上面是如我們所預判"},{"start":11569.488,"end":11588.344,"text":"沒有錯那這個是全世界都會知道的事全世界的軍方大概都判斷雙方會用什麼來交火對目前的戰爭形態大致上是這好那台灣如果跟這個就是中國啊中國要打台灣的時候你們也可以預判他大概用什麼打"},{"start":11590.569,"end":11619.157,"text":"因為有些牽涉到機密但是簡單跟委員說明就是說知道因為他聯合火力打擊的階段基本上他會用這個導彈巡弋飛彈以及他原火部隊來實施大規模的一個攻擊那你們報告裡頭有提到你們要處理高中低三層防禦體系這三層防禦體系按照目前中華民國的這個武器的"},{"start":11620.118,"end":11622.868,"text":"雙倍啊高中低分別缺什麼"},{"start":11630.969,"end":11658.007,"text":"如同委員剛剛所指導的我們首先要去注意中共近幾年在武力上的發展那所以他不管是在這個所謂導彈還有遠程火箭在這幾年的數量上對周邊還有在演習上都形成極具的威脅那因此我們國軍在多年的這個艦軍備戰下當然在防空武器系統各項的主被動的措施都已經"},{"start":11658.787,"end":11676.38,"text":"逐年在建制 但是考量到中共的威脅不斷的驟增之下因此我們需要台灣之盾分別從低通高三個層次來去建立一個能夠高度感知分層防禦跟有效攔截的整體系統才能夠因應它不斷劇增的威脅那這三個分別缺什麼不好講是吧"},{"start":11685.819,"end":11709.469,"text":"所以這當然在這個特別預算的審查裡面我們會去做說明簡單跟委員包括就是後續我們會因為這要區分硬體跟軟體兩個部分來做檢查意思就是說這個1.25兆的這個條例如果進行相關的審查包括後面預算的審查大概就可以看得出國軍現在對"},{"start":11711.01,"end":11729.528,"text":"低中高這個防禦體系大概缺什麼對那也可以看得出這三層防禦體系之間的整合缺什麼對就是剛剛跟委員報告中間有包含到軟體戰場管理系統整合的部分因為你們現在都講得很籠統嘛"},{"start":11730.936,"end":11757.817,"text":"也不能講得太清楚所以你們現在有把握這1.25兆建制完成之後我們到底動會不會動我們會朝這個方向努力現在來看這整個建制的目標我們努力來達成好那接下來講這個無人機就是說這個有沒有比較低成本的無人機阿強阿勇低成本無人機打我們的時候我們要怎麼反制"},{"start":11759.521,"end":11784.56,"text":"簡單跟委員報告,因為它這個低成本的無人機簡單說剛剛又跟前面的委員做完研討它運用的方式基本上它會在海上用這個船來放置的方式因為它的航程不是那麼的遠所以它可能用海上施放或者登陸之後所以剛剛那個我記得防人委員嘛你打海上一隻船就好了"},{"start":11785.353,"end":11814.418,"text":"那目前我們在已經有做相關的規劃說我們在7月份成立了濱海專案指揮部裡面有整合相關無人機跟反彈的能量能夠有效的對敵人的這個海上的這個船艦的攻擊上面做一個做一個這個裝備好那它對它發動大量的攻擊消耗我們啊我們叫防禦嘛對防禦我們也會被消耗啊我們能夠被它消耗多久"},{"start":11816.82,"end":11840.54,"text":"所以我們檢討這一個我們有區分兩塊一個部分是主動反制第二個是被動防禦那主動反制的部分辦到我們現在後續準備要建置的這個低成本的這個防洪武器或者是我們現在建置的這個固定的以及被固定是機動型的一個反制的一個C型式的反制無人機的一個這都在1.2兆里頭"},{"start":11843.198,"end":11857.02,"text":"這個都在1.65兆裡頭目前都有在建置在相關的這個細節裡面在半導無人載具跟反制系統裡面都有在第三項裡面做規劃還是會在本來的年度預算就有這些"},{"start":11858.052,"end":11878.464,"text":"目前因為他必須要雙軌並行就是說我們現在的反制系統其實我們的軍事預算裡面已經有建制在固定支出但是他沒辦法因應那麼大規模的一個反制武器的一個建制所以特別需要特別預算來做支持OK好那在這報告裡頭啊有幾個用字啊這個請你們說明一下你說"},{"start":11880.441,"end":11896.434,"text":"在現有飛彈的技術基礎上,研製及籌貨可執行遠程火箭彈攔截至低成本防空武器你們用的文字叫研製及籌貨,這看起來應該現在沒有現在已經有在,因為這個是"},{"start":11903.274,"end":11915.349,"text":"包委員我們現在是有能力但是為了能夠達到低成本我們不要用這個不管是現行的防空系統去浪費我們的國防預算好OK那我懂"},{"start":11916.089,"end":11933.3,"text":"那第二個你們也提到說你們要同步籌購及部署右標假目標衛星定位干擾等等等等等你們用的文字還是籌購跟部署代表這個現在沒有對不對"},{"start":11935.858,"end":11962.991,"text":"現在已經有在做辦到我們的這個偽裝碗矯型的反射器還有我們現在電子衛星的干擾系統現在其實已經有在建置當中但是它的數量不足以因應我們要滿足那麼多的一個軍事設施以及政府的關鍵基礎設施所以我們必須要後續持續的來籌建也藉由這個預算來支撐也都在這個特別條例裡頭是"},{"start":11964.392,"end":11986.04,"text":"就是剛提到這些所謂的籌購及部署這個概念是說現在不夠然後要增加那增加包括用買的跟包括中科院自己去做的所以需要這個特別條例然後需要這個1.25兆來把這一塊補足是也包含在這個裡面"},{"start":11987.523,"end":12002.508,"text":"那我請問一下,如果沒有這一點的護照,像在美國跟伊朗這一場戰役裡頭啊,哪一件事情就會發生在台灣?現在媒體報導說這個伊朗啊,美國的飛機飛彈飛進去,伊朗都站在那裡,不知道發生什麼事,就叫他們打,那台灣會不會這樣?"},{"start":12008.961,"end":12029.207,"text":"當然我們現在持續在精進我們的建軍備案工作固定的國防預算可以勉勵去維持我們現在的軍事能力但是我們要考量的就是說因應未來的戰爭確實有必要一次性的來提升國軍的戰力也能夠兼顧到政府跟"},{"start":12030.968,"end":12046.798,"text":"這個社會在關鍵基礎設施運作在戰爭當中能夠正常運作最重要的是我們也希望能夠保障台灣人民的生活財產的安全所以希望一次性的能夠提升這樣的一個戰力我想這個固定的國防預算"},{"start":12047.338,"end":12062.432,"text":"跟我們現在的這個特別預算能夠雙軌並行能夠很迅速的提升我們國軍的戰力也同時藉由各種的方式讓國軍的人才能夠水準能夠提升這種雙軌並行來提升我們國防的好 謝謝副部長"},{"start":12063.573,"end":12084.401,"text":"也期待你們接下來趕快跟國民黨立委好好溝通把這個嚴重性、重要性不管公開溝通、私底下溝通都請國民黨跟民眾黨的立委多多協助讓我們這個特別條例跟後續相關的預算能夠儘早通過好 謝謝謝偉"},{"start":12090.112,"end":12093.253,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我想請這個副部長然後應該還有我們採購室主任然後還有陸軍司令部參謀長一起採購室主任陸軍參謀長請就位"},{"start":12118.945,"end":12133.322,"text":"是我想先請問一下我們陸軍是不是最近有一個採購案是關於這個陸軍機敏資安核心然後總決標金額一共是6.1億的一個案子"},{"start":12134.042,"end":12139.245,"text":"幫委員是的在114到118年好114到118他是什麼時候來這個進行這個這個標案的時間去年底決標的好去年底決標的嘛那所以等於說是我想好今天要跟你們討論一下這個案子那呢他一共這個決標金額是6億1那當然我在這邊已經寫得很清楚了是希望說能夠呢升級基礎設施嘛"},{"start":12163.18,"end":12180.59,"text":"那我問一下當初來這個參與標案的這個廠商有幾家分別是哪幾家有三家中華電信華晶科技還有這個中光電最後是哪一家得標中光電那請問一下這三家分別的資本額是多少"},{"start":12183.064,"end":12208.452,"text":"這個資本額的部分要包含到因為三家也都是上市櫃公司對啊但還是有資本額跟他的這個核心技術的差距嘛不然所有上市公司都是一樣的嗎當然不一樣嘛所以我問一下中華電信華晶資訊跟中光電他們分別的資本額是多少錢向委員報告中光電我們知道大概32億但是華晶的話32億你確定喔2億吧"},{"start":12210.425,"end":12227.016,"text":"我記得10週資本額2億抱歉抱歉請問一下各位2億跟32億差很多華晶是5億華晶是10.7億中華電信是1200億幫我核實一下我的數字是否正確因為我是查過的然後剛剛你說32億也不對確實是我說的2億"},{"start":12228.977,"end":12241.628,"text":"那我很想請問一下就是說這家中光電那我們先我們先看資本額等一下我會跟你討論核心技術等等一個一個討論下去那中華電信華晶資訊跟中光電這三家那他們來針對資安設備的部分來進行投標中光電他能夠勝出的理由在哪裡"},{"start":12252.733,"end":12274.029,"text":"報委員我簡單報告一下這個評選委員最主要是有九員那軍方的內部是兩員通常到學者專家學者專家然後我再問嘛就是那你總要知道說這個最後得標了中光電他得標這個是我們陸軍機敏的這個專案那他的優勢優於華晶資訊跟中華電信優在哪嗎他有什麼特色嗎"},{"start":12281.278,"end":12307.749,"text":"向委員報告因為手上的資訊沒有但是我們剛剛這個委員啊所有的委員都是經過這個我不管你委員我問你的問題你回答我就好因為你今天三家來標然後呢你也標給了這個中光電了然後呢我問你說那中光電它提供出來的內容有什麼是能夠優於其他兩間所以它被選擇無論是軍方的參與或是專家學者的參與它勝出的原因在哪裡"},{"start":12309.029,"end":12328.14,"text":"這個部分的資料我們可以私下跟委員報告為什麼要私下報告呢公開不能講嗎因為這個評選的資料有些是不宜對外公開的好那我告訴你公開的部分是什麼好不好也就是其他廠商的核心設備他們拿出的中華電信跟華晶資訊他們都有CP、Sysco、Jumpeter"},{"start":12328.82,"end":12354.809,"text":"但是呢 中光電跟別人不一樣中光電它選擇的是這一家這個叫做Fortinet的這個防火牆所以最後我們選擇了它我想要請問一下你們軍方有沒有了解中光電所提供的這一套Fortinet它這一套資訊系統好還是不好有沒有在國際上受到什麼樣的批評"},{"start":12356.069,"end":12381.649,"text":"報告委員我就兩點向您做回覆第一個有關於這個媒播報導的這家媒體報導的事情他事實上並不周全而且有因為你回答我的問題就好了嘛周不周全那是我今天我當然今天有一家媒體他做了很多的系列的報導那我也只會拿我認為裡面有道理的部分來詢問你那不是說我今天把所有的新聞然後全部列出來我詢問的剛剛很清楚了"},{"start":12384.031,"end":12412.816,"text":"就是說這套ForeignNet是中光電提供的資訊系統對吧是有錯嗎沒有嘛那我問你這套系統你認為它優不優秀有沒有其他的漏洞可言我就兩點向委員報告第一個它所提供的必須要符合國防部它所規範的營區網路的建置的期待你沒有回答我的問題我問的是這套系統第二點有關於這個您剛才講到這個ForeignNet這個對"},{"start":12414.276,"end":12437.541,"text":"網路漏洞我們目前沒有收到國防部以上的這個防火牆的漏洞報告那我請問一下荷蘭軍事情報局安全局那他們有沒有在2024年曾經發布一個報告提到這套系統它有被中國中國大陸這邊然後呢有駭客的漏洞"},{"start":12438.015,"end":12445.003,"text":"他們曾經駭入過荷蘭的國防部在內有兩萬台的相關設備你們知道這件事嗎我們一切會依照國安局所通報的機制來做審問那你國安局的機制歸國安局的機制我現在問你是一個事實的部分就是說你們有沒有去掌握到這一套系統"},{"start":12457.458,"end":12477.296,"text":"在荷蘭他當初被使用的時候他們的國防部有提供一個報告說明了就他們實際上在運作的時候有兩萬台被中共去入侵到他們的系統裡面包委員現在這個案子還在廠商提交服務計畫書的階段如果今天報導"},{"start":12478.137,"end":12495.834,"text":"或是委員的指導認為這個有疑慮事實上我們會再請教國防部跟國安局那我告訴你建制和所驗收的系統一定要是符合國安局的機制所以這個部分不是只是國安局它有它的機制但國安局它也不是神它也有可能有漏掉的時候"},{"start":12496.815,"end":12502.958,"text":"所以這本來就是雙方大家要有一個互動嘛那我剛剛提出的就是說荷蘭軍事情報局裡面就出過一份報告裡面寫什麼呢他們的防火牆被中共的駭客攻破以後他還會植入木馬這個木馬呢他即便軍方重新開機這是報告裡面的內容我都看過報告了那你進行任體升級之後他這個後門還是會在"},{"start":12521.007,"end":12524.148,"text":"所以變成是說這套系統它從荷蘭這是荷蘭方講的他們的實務經驗就是它有一個後門會被植入木馬植入木馬之後就算你去做更新這個木馬還在所以就變成是說你以為你買了一套資安的設備但其實你讓中共有了一個後門的機會有一個植入木馬的機會"},{"start":12542.754,"end":12561.849,"text":"那請問一下如果是這樣子的話專家跟委員跟你們在這個標案的過程當中都沒有把這些事情考慮進來的情況下那裡面是有中共同路人還怎樣啊包委員我再次強調我們不會堅持要用這樣子的系統如果有這樣的疑慮在服務計畫書裡面廠商要有完整的說明而且要經過"},{"start":12563.15,"end":12590.822,"text":"國安局和我們的聯六所那你們在當初這個開標的時候有沒有就是你們在討論這個標案的時候有沒有把這些事情就是一起討論在裡面嗎還是你們什麼時候才知道說荷蘭人家是荷蘭人家是有做這個報告然後有提到說有漏洞的問題啊你們什麼時候知道這件事情的不可能是我現在跟你講你才知道吧我沒有參與標案所以這個要在10號了解之後向您報告那你們需要花多少時間了解"},{"start":12593.922,"end":12594.908,"text":"因為這是滿嚴重的一個問題啊"},{"start":12599.656,"end":12621.67,"text":"我們在本週終於了解到因為我告訴你這我不是要挑你們麻煩因為這是蠻嚴重的問題我重複一遍因為其實中華電信跟華晶資訊那都是對於資安他們有尤其我說中華電信好了我不要講其他的中華電信跟我們之間這個政府部門之間本來就有很多資安上面的服務跟協助那人家其實是相當專業的資安的這個防護系統結果選了這個中光電原因剛剛也聽不出來"},{"start":12627.253,"end":12642.889,"text":"那選了中光電那它其實它的產業主要是在服務這個像比如無人機啊或是這種無人狗啊等等的它也不是以一個資安見長的一個公司然後呢再加上它所提供的它目前所要提供的這樣的一個系統"},{"start":12643.49,"end":12661.521,"text":"因為荷蘭就曾經已經被他們揭露過說會被中共植入木馬所以它是一個有資安程序的資安疑慮的問題那我想要請教一下那如果說對方要提供的是這樣子的一個系統那我們後續你一個禮拜之後你發現說真的有所疑慮的話那國防部這裡要怎麼處理"},{"start":12663.766,"end":12689.804,"text":"我再次跟您報告上述的參加上述的三家的這個競標公司都是符合相關的規定資格的那第二個我剛剛也說了符合資格是不是設備要通過國安規定的認證然後呢那請問一下這個認證的部分中華電信跟華晶資訊我知道都是在得標之前就已經送給國防部請問中光電是什麼時候送進來的相關認證這個報導上面所說的與事實不符"},{"start":12693.166,"end":12696.268,"text":"那是什麼時候不是報導一月份才送審我要問是什麼時候我剛剛沒有說是幾月份請你聽清楚我的問題我問的是說呢這個中華電信跟華晶就我確實知道是說它是因為本來就應該在你要這個送進來的時候就要有審核嘛"},{"start":12711.44,"end":12725.675,"text":"所以我問的是說那好那你這樣講這三家中華電信華晶資訊中光電他們分別針對國安認證的部分是在什麼時候把相關的設備交由國防部去提供相關的這個認證說明的"},{"start":12729.158,"end":12746.005,"text":"你三家都提供時間點就好了呀我是給你一個澄清的機會嘛我這要比較完整跟委員報告第一個這個依照BNS的採購清單裡面就是國防部核可我們雖然是陸軍建制但是我們要能夠跟國防部的整個相容性和安全性做借接那"},{"start":12746.425,"end":12768.192,"text":"在這個招標的這個商情裡面我們發現有部分的清單他可能面臨到消失性的商源還有並不是優歸所以我們請得標廠商提供相關的優歸的記錄並不是如報導所說在招標評選會上面他沒有拿到國安的資安認證那請問其他兩家都是一開始就OK了嘛對不對"},{"start":12769.093,"end":12773.938,"text":"您 對不起 抱歉我沒聽清楚就是你剛剛講的是說因為你認為說這其中一家廠商或者是因為你沒有講是哪一家廠商你就說有廠商然後呢他可能在這個過程當中你認為有一些需要補件是嗎 是需要補件所以你後來請他補件 對吧"},{"start":12784.89,"end":12799.46,"text":"就請他提供這些在B2S清單裡面可能面臨消失性傷源的我們請他提出優歸的其他的系統讓我們做審認那其他兩家不用的原因是因為他沒得標嗎"},{"start":12800.661,"end":12814.734,"text":"那他有 他當初在這個投標的時候有提供相關的內容嗎因為如果人家有那他沒有的話然後結果他卻被選出來那不是一件很奇怪的事嗎是 他這些提供的都有在BLS清單裡面但是因為我們去審認"},{"start":12816.295,"end":12830.874,"text":"面臨到這些系統裡面我們要選擇更優歸和有一些可能面臨消費性傷害源的我們就把它摒除掉好那我以上做一個結論因為也沒有時間了就是說呢你們在這麼重要的資安設備而且金額高達六億多"},{"start":12832.336,"end":12836.561,"text":"然後呢我們我不知道為什麼學者專家或你說的裡面也有國防部的人沒有選擇這種聲譽很好然後呢也長時間在經營那這個資安系統的包含中華電信等等的那要選擇一個資本額比較低的中光電他也主要不是做這個的"},{"start":12850.498,"end":12872.373,"text":"那這我也都不跟你提了但他最後他選擇的這樣子的一個系統如果他曾經在荷蘭所發布的報告裡面有提到他有被兩萬台的設備被中共植入木馬被駭客入侵的情況那我們要審慎思考是不是還要跟這個廠商合作或者是要如何去修改一個禮拜之內可以給我回覆嗎"},{"start":12873.153,"end":12893.22,"text":"是 那我也在一個禮拜內跟委員回覆那我也要再次跟委員澄清報告這個任何治安的建制一定是以國家安全作為最高的當然啦 但我剛沒跟你講的時候你也跟我說你也不知道荷蘭他們的狀況啊所以我就說你們當然是你怎麼可能你會在台上講說哎呀 我們治安不是很重要這個當然很重要嘛 對不對"},{"start":12893.82,"end":12923.107,"text":"可是說這個疑慮的部分你們沒有提早發現那要我現在跟你們說你們才要一個禮拜的時間去調查類似的事情我希望以後在資安的不管從投標開始審查過程專家學者軍方都要更仔細詳細的去做調查以後才讓對方去得標否則類似的疑慮會很多而且後續你們如果還要再修改的話也會讓國人有更多的疑慮那也會對於你們的流程跟程序來說增加更加的負擔那其實是沒有必要的好不好"},{"start":12923.567,"end":12926.79,"text":"所以麻煩一個禮拜的時間 回去瞭解一下 謝謝謝謝 就這個案子 因為BNS不是一般的資安防火牆它是我們很重要的 我們國軍的營區網路管理核心系統也是重要的軍網中樞所以如果這個發生問題 對我們會造成非常大的傷害"},{"start":12947.91,"end":12970.006,"text":"所以就剛剛徐委員所提出的我們一個禮拜之內做一些調查順便也提供就是在那個因為招標文件也明文規定說設備必須通過國安規定的認證那三家廠商他們提供的認證到底是什麼時候也一併提供好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請李坤城委員上台質詢"},{"start":12983.274,"end":12987.097,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那就請副部長請副部長李委員好副部長 這個媒體有報導美國宣布有200億美元的軍售要給台灣這個有140億的對台軍售還有60億美元的不對稱的作戰的裝備那副部長有聽到這個消息嗎"},{"start":13011.1,"end":13018.368,"text":"有那這個是不是就是日前我們所編的1.25兆預算裡面的其中一部分市長對於媒體報導的這個數字"},{"start":13026.681,"end":13051.038,"text":"我們目前第一個部分我們跟美方提出的這個部分是有我們確切的暗想那媒體裡面所提到的這個金額的部分他並沒有很詳細的去敘述這些到底涵蓋了哪些項目所以這邊也無從去了解說他提的這個部分是講的是哪一些我們所希望籌購的東西"},{"start":13052.839,"end":13079.784,"text":"那我的意思是說因為現在它有一部分是111美金這個已經是確定了然後接下來這個有第二階段應該是有第二階段的這個軍售要給台灣那有接受到美方這個訊息嗎我們先不要講是金額會有多少好了我們現在獲得的訊息是我們已經提出針對特別預算的案項裡面美方都按照正常的進度來進行審核"},{"start":13081.547,"end":13102.86,"text":"那所以就是說有可能 因為現在有院版 國民黨 民眾黨那這院版完全是跟美方都已經是協調好的這一個 包含這一個項目 也包含這個金額那我的意思是說 接下來美方宣布要賣的 應該就是我們跟他們協調好"},{"start":13104.738,"end":13112.914,"text":"打算賣給我們的東西就對了那如果這樣子的話那如果近期美方不管這個這個川習會是"},{"start":13114.708,"end":13136.961,"text":"會不會見面會不會延遲我們不知道但是有機會在近期再宣布會有這個第二批的武器再賣給我們嗎應該是有機會好那今天的題目是防空反飛彈系統的效能低成本攔截手段無人機的反制能量那我想請問一下副部長跟司長這個有呈現在我們的這個特別預算裡面嗎"},{"start":13139.332,"end":13160.16,"text":"包委我們在特別預算裡面的第三項裡面我們就已經有提到我們要建構反彈防空等相關系統然後在第五項裡面我們也針對人工智慧輔助決策系統跟C8SR的這個部分做了一個規劃所以相關的案項事實上"},{"start":13161.801,"end":13181.619,"text":"有一部分是納在我們特別預算裡面但是要跟委員報告的是我們的整個台灣之盾的建立不是只有這個特別預算我們是奠基在過去已經建立的防空能量為基礎然後透過這一次的特別預算裡面去強化它的能量"},{"start":13182.119,"end":13211.122,"text":"但是在公務預算的部分我們還有其他長期性的規劃他可能不是在我們這個時間之內可以完全獲得或是在研發上面我們仍然必須等待的那這個部分比較具有不確定性的部分我會納入後續的公務預算可是就整體而言在這個台灣之盾就是特別預算裡面的台灣之盾的項目如果能夠完全獲得他可以大幅提升我們目前高中低三個空城的一個防禦能力"},{"start":13211.482,"end":13228.634,"text":"好那請教一下那目前這一檔的版本有納入今天我們所報告的題目裡面嗎沒有沒有嘛對不對沒有在這裡面嘛對不對對啊那所以今天要報這個題目那其實也是給你們一個跟大眾說明的一個機會我們台灣之盾"},{"start":13229.127,"end":13245.084,"text":"要建構不管是低 中 高的這個防空的戰略特別預算裡面已經有納進去了那包含市長所講的在這個常態的國防預算裡面也有但是這次的這一檔的版本都沒有就對了"},{"start":13247.59,"end":13267.118,"text":"目前兩個在野黨的版本主要是針對已經公布的軍購案的部分那其他的規劃的部分並沒有納入好 那再請教一下就是說在這個2024年6月的時候這個前美軍印太司令的司令帕帕羅他有提出一個地域景象"},{"start":13267.697,"end":13297.097,"text":"那地域景象當然就是說就是一個用無人機或是無人艇的一個不對稱的一個作戰那請問一下那這個地域景象有沒有符合我們目前的這個不對稱作戰的一個需求這個當然是符合我們目前不對稱的作戰需求這為什麼我們在這一次的這個特別預算裡面我們針對無人機跟反無人機的這個系統還有其他無人系統的這個部分我們有相當程度的琢磨而且我們希望這些系統都能夠在台灣產制來增加我們的韌性"},{"start":13298.137,"end":13325.271,"text":"那所以你看這個美國打伊朗那現在其實你就知道說這一個無人機它的重要性在哪裡無人機的重要性其實從兩亞戰爭的時候我們大概就可以看得出來無人機已經成為目前整個戰爭的一個新趨勢它改變了過去傳統兵力以及戰力以對稱的方式來進行交戰的這種模式無人機的出現改變了我們"},{"start":13327.492,"end":13343.38,"text":"針對火力 針尖以及其他各方面的一個估計所以這個部分我們也汲取其他國家的經驗來做整個評估以及未來的籌貨規劃好 那所以這個也是在我們特別預算裡面有嘛對不對是那所以那再一兩版本也沒有"},{"start":13344.623,"end":13373.023,"text":"沒有那所以今天這個題目我是覺得說這個也蠻弔詭的那其實也剛好利用這個題目來跟大家說明我們台灣之盾或是說我們有關這個無人機無人艇的這個不對稱作戰所需要的這些項目跟金額都完全沒有在在野黨的這一個特別條例的版本裡面目前的版本裡面是沒有的都沒有那我期待啦至少有附委審查了"},{"start":13373.621,"end":13393.514,"text":"期待在接下來軍購條例的聯席審查會議當中能夠願版的不管是台灣之盾或是不對稱作戰所需要的這些項目都能夠保留下來這個對台灣來講才是整體的建構我們國防的安全好 謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":13399.127,"end":13406.369,"text":"接下來請王洪威委員 王洪威 王洪威委員不在 請賴氏寶 賴氏寶 賴氏寶委員不在 請郭鈺晴委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請副部長 請副部長郭委員好"},{"start":13429.481,"end":13434.341,"text":"好 請教一下副部長 這個國防預算特別條例我們是什麼時候送進立法院的"},{"start":13436.98,"end":13459.632,"text":"11月底對不對應該是11月底去年的11月是是是沒錯是去年的11月底那現在其實又有一些聲音說這個國防部可以編列在這個年度的預算當中但是我們的這個115年就是今年的中央政府總預算是什麼時候送進來立法院的您知道嗎去年的8月29號"},{"start":13461.514,"end":13479.953,"text":"8月29號現在已經躺在這個程序委員會已經躺很久了然後再來我們的這個國防預算特別條例也躺很久了一直躺到現在那尤其是中央政府走預算已經躺到現在我算過了啦如果要把今天也一起算進去的話整整躺了200天已經躺了200天了好"},{"start":13483.516,"end":13504.585,"text":"那所以今天我想這個我們的委員會特別排了這樣子的一個這個專案的報告那我想我的大概也看過了那這個專案的報告內容其實非常非常完整那也非常的攸關我們的這個國防的安全尤其是在建構這個所謂的台灣之盾身上那我想這個規劃透過這個高中低層的一個"},{"start":13508.707,"end":13522.883,"text":"分層的一個防禦那結合多項的包含是整合天公啦愛國者啊等等的這些系統那同時也要發展所謂的這個低成本攔截武器跟這個無人機反制的一個能力喔但我想喔我們講了這麼多"},{"start":13523.944,"end":13542.877,"text":"那我們的這個報告專案報告當中其實內容我看過也非常非常的完整那我想請教一下剛剛其實這個我們的控制委員也特別提到請問現在就是在在野黨他們所提出的這樣子的一個預算的版本當中這些部分有沒有被納入我再請教"},{"start":13547.63,"end":13566.047,"text":"因為目前在野黨所提的兩個版本都是針對已經美方已經智慧國會同意共受的項目所以其他的部分是還沒有納入都還沒有納入所以今天我們特別有這樣子的一個專案報告好沒關係那我們也來請教一下就是這個國防部"},{"start":13566.687,"end":13569.748,"text":"那我看到這個報告當中當然也指出要導向這個導入這個AI的人工智慧戰場管理的一個系統那我想這也是整體方面我們確實也符合這個外界長期一直不斷地在強調的包含多層的這個據指"},{"start":13583.772,"end":13603.044,"text":"那精準的打擊那另外還有分散存活跟快速的一個決策這樣子的一個防衛的一個思維其實是非常好的但是我想請教這個國防部的部分就是這個報告當中其實都有提到多項的關鍵建軍的一些項目那包含是強化防空的火網"},{"start":13603.704,"end":13616.427,"text":"那麼再來是低成本的攔截的武器還有無人機反制的一個系統喔那我想呢這些所謂的具有極破性的這些建案回歸到所謂的年度的預算當中請問會不會影響到台灣之盾的防空體系的一個建制的時程這個是第一個問題喔那因為今天時間有限喔那我把第二個問題第三個問題問完之後"},{"start":13625.809,"end":13651.829,"text":"如果說來不及在我們的質詢當中回答的話那麻煩再給我一些書面的一個報告那第二點呢就是在報告當中也特別因應想強調這個因應我們的一個敵方有可能會採取所謂的多波式或者是多彈種的一個混合的一個攻擊的一個模式那我想的這個部分呢包含是彈道的飛彈那巡弋飛彈跟大量的一個無人機那以目前我們國防部的財政的規劃"},{"start":13653.39,"end":13670.124,"text":"我們能不能夠支應這些所謂的不對稱戰力的快速成長的一個所謂的需求這個是第二個問題有關於預算的這個部分向您報告因為我們在這一次裡面委制跟商過的部分它的佔比大概是三千餘億左右"},{"start":13670.904,"end":13699.2,"text":"那這些籌貨的項目都是預划未來5到6年之間要籌貨的如果全部塞到公務預算去的話每年增加的額度大概是500到600億台幣左右那依照這個額度的話除非大幅擴增我們公務預算的額度否則就沒有辦法去支應那擴增公務預算我們的限制是我們也不希望排擠到其他部會及民生經紀人各方面的一個安排"},{"start":13699.58,"end":13725.442,"text":"所以就籌獲的時間跟預算穩定的這個角度來看我們還是希望大院能夠同意我們這些相關類項目採取特別預算來指引好我想呢這個國防部的態度也很清楚那其實我們立法院當中我們也很希望能夠趕快通過這個國防預算的特別條例我想這個從去年的11月底送進來到現在其實已經躺了很久了那更不用講這個115年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":13728.264,"end":13747.436,"text":"8月29號送進立法院到現在整整躺了200天我們在這裡也呼籲一下這個在野黨喔大家都知道國防很重要安全很重要人身的安全很重要台灣人民很重要但是這個部分我們還是要來支持國防部好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":13750.389,"end":13761.235,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢那麻煩請副部長請副部長"},{"start":13781.886,"end":13800.265,"text":"副部長好副部長我們看到最近這兩個多月來或者是說這三週來這個國際的情勢變化非常的大那我們看到戰場正在重疊戰場正在重疊的意思是說包含這個東歐的戰場跟這個西亞或者是中東的戰場它慢慢的有在結合的趨勢"},{"start":13801.286,"end":13812.15,"text":"那更不用說之前有北韓的這個士兵那不斷的在東歐的戰場出現所以我們看到的是已經是超越區戰爭的這個範疇他不斷的在擴大當中那當整個歐洲戰場跟中東戰場結合之後"},{"start":13818.092,"end":13839.805,"text":"那我看這裡就是一個非常大的一個警訊也就是說他們盟友之間的協調所謂的盟友不是只有我們的友方的協調包含這個美國跟海灣國家包含美國跟日本韓國的關係都正在有一些微妙的變化當中之所以這麼說是包含這一個美國的陸戰的遠征隊有2500多名"},{"start":13841.986,"end":13861.36,"text":"那就新聞報導他已經有開始在做重新的部署調派可能會調派到中東那另外一部分就是韓國的這些防空的系統也有抽調到中東的狀況那首先我要請教副部長在這樣子的狀況之下我們會不會擔心我們的優先次序"},{"start":13863.26,"end":13876.211,"text":"遭受到違憲遭受到調整會不會是被調整的一部分目前我們聽到美方會不會有這樣子的這個調整第一個部分就是先回答委員有關這個亞太的旗幟當然這個美國調動它的"},{"start":13879.934,"end":13901.243,"text":"陸戰隊的部分是因應整個戰況發展跟區域的一個考量所以我們對有關亞太地區的區域情勢我們是非常每天非常密切的在掌握就是亞太地區的情勢以及對岸是否有一些相對性的一個威脅的一個增加這是第一個第一個部分那第二部分我請這個站位市長"},{"start":13902.805,"end":13918.997,"text":"這個部分跟我們目前有關的是102枚的增購的MS-1I3型的防空飛彈那這個102枚目前美方仍然在協調裡面告訴我們會在今年開始如期交運"},{"start":13920.97,"end":13941.161,"text":"所以說在愛國者系統一樣今年一樣如期交約不會因為中東的戰事他這102枚是前面我們那1790億元386枚的第一波的愛山採購案裡面所後面剩餘的案款那在之前經過大院同意之後我們增購了102枚了解"},{"start":13944.147,"end":13966.787,"text":"我為什麼問這個問題很清楚嘛因為包含3月3號阿拉伯聯合大公國表示他攔截了169枚飛彈跟645架無人機那戈威特是攔截了178枚飛彈所以以這樣子的數量來講的話我國的目前的這樣子的防空系統假設遇到警示伊朗規模的話足以因應"},{"start":13969.073,"end":13987.247,"text":"包委員我們整個防空作戰計畫它是必須要經過非常詳密的計算的當然我們防空武器所保護的目標我們會依現有的能力去評估我們哪些目標會優先進行保護但是未來台灣之盾建立的目的就是"},{"start":13987.867,"end":14011.61,"text":"目前在敵人各式的威脅空中威脅的部分不斷提升的情況之下我們必須要在盡快的時間之內不論透過軍購或是偽製甚至商購的方式來獲得我們高中低層所需要的從反彈一直到防無人機各式的武器系統才能夠確保未來我們能夠有效來防範敵人的攻擊"},{"start":14013.084,"end":14031.101,"text":"這也是為什麼我們說相較於行政院的版本我們就是要 你說剛才你講的嘛要具備這樣子的防禦性的能力可是在行政院的版本之外其他的版本就是這一次的特別條例它沒有包含防空系統跟系統整合沒有嗎 有沒有包含 沒有你要說沒有包含防空系統其實"},{"start":14032.142,"end":14049.593,"text":"我們要強調的是在這次院版的項目裡面很重要的一項是西方ISR系統跟人工智慧輔助決策的系統因為這個部分攸關到我們未來要去鏈接各式美照以及國照的武器系統"},{"start":14050.313,"end":14075.542,"text":"那這個部分如果缺了這個核心能量的話我們不但沒有辦法把目前所有包含雷達以及其他各式情資來源進行整合之外我們也沒有辦法針對未來我們所目前已經既有的防空系統還有未來籌貨的這個武器系統早期的來進行系統整合的這個工作那這個勢必會影響到後面我們整個戰力的行程"},{"start":14076.072,"end":14105.632,"text":"所以我必須要剛才這個有提到我們是要把各種武器的系統整合才能夠做有效的經濟的配置也就是說高中低也好當他們用比較高昂的這種保彈我們有用相應的這個防空系統來去應對當他們用比較低應該說比較低端的這種自殺型的無人機我們也有相對應的更加的便宜或者是說有經濟效益的無人機來去反制所以這不是買多少彈的問題這是整合的問題這同時你剛才提到的AI"},{"start":14106.252,"end":14121.436,"text":"一樣這一個在美方也是全面性的使用來去用AI來去區分哪些是高價值的必須要用空中的力量把它移除的哪些是中低價值的不需要移除的以及哪些是民用設施的必須要避免的"},{"start":14121.616,"end":14141.252,"text":"所以現在大量的審核AI這些系統它是我們未來武器籌貨系統中的非常重要的一部分如果沒有了那會對我國的防空會造成絕對的影響其實我剛才聽到很多在內黨的委員們都有提到對我國防空系統他們的不管是期許跟希望它怎麼樣來去完備也就是說我們的目的是一樣的"},{"start":14141.832,"end":14171.121,"text":"那如果是目的是一樣的話為什麼他們會把這一個在他們的條例裡面沒有包括我想可能是因為時間的因素或許是他們覺得時間緊迫所以他們趕快提出來的一個版本不具完備性那我想這個部分就是這個禮拜我們這個禮拜還有一整個禮拜的時間就好好的跟這些黨立委來去說明為什麼他們不把這個放進去裡面那是第一個部分那如果可以理解之後那我們才可以往前推進那第二個部分就是我們要跟國民也要跟國民說明"},{"start":14171.741,"end":14190.168,"text":"跟國民說明這樣他們才會給在野黨來去跟他們有點壓力讓他們慢慢地走向對台灣最有利的這個做法因為剛才提到的你說這個AI的整合也好或者是讓我們知道說不同的情資全部整合之後我們才能夠快速地判斷快速地判斷不僅是人為的判斷而且還是能夠"},{"start":14191.368,"end":14205.879,"text":"在所有的時效性的判斷這些全部都整合在一起我們才有辦法做到哪怕是以色列這樣子的等級包含這一次中東的戰爭我們應該很清楚的看到以色列的防空的機制還是起到很大的作用數百枚的飛彈跟"},{"start":14208.021,"end":14230.698,"text":"多波次的飛彈跟多波次的無人機但是他們的無人他們的這個防空系統還是一樣的運作所以這就是一個很好的例子如果我們想要像他們一樣的話我們就必須付出代價而這個代價就是特別預算所以特別條例它是一個架構我們之後可以再做預算的細節哪些你覺得這是不必要的這一檔有權利來說這個不必要我們可以把它減少但是有條例之後才能夠有預算"},{"start":14231.539,"end":14252.69,"text":"如果條例都沒有具備的話那我們很難進入實質審查這個部分我們也要好好的跟在野黨來去說明希望能夠讓這個條例通過之後讓我們未來的預算再往前走那我還是要強調我們從以色列或整個中東的這一個戰爭我們可以看到很多的這個狀況除了以色列的成功之外我們必須要看一下包含防空系統之外"},{"start":14254.31,"end":14275.939,"text":"伊朗的武器的製造能力跟他持續的製造能力他把許多的工廠都地下化那包含導彈的這些儲存也都在地下化那我這邊想要請教包含副部長我國如果在面臨像是有具有接近空優的狀況之下有沒有持續製造的能力"},{"start":14277.165,"end":14297.862,"text":"至少在無人機的部分目前無人機的部分我們現在在提升國內的產能的部分目前自製的能力在健身型的部分是沒有問題第二個部分在有關供給型的部分也積極跟國內的廠商合作因為他需要一些火工作業的限制所以也積極在合作當中"},{"start":14298.883,"end":14318.393,"text":"所以我們現在自製無人機的能量區分三個部分一個部分是我們兼徵型跟國內的廠商來做第二個是跟軍備局的火工作業合作第三個部分是有關中科院他有相關能量從進風一型到進風四型持續在發展上我的意思是說生產的分散化跟未來有沒有機會地下化"},{"start":14320.656,"end":14339.806,"text":"現在這個地下化的部分我們後續可能要跟國內的廠商還有相關的單位去做一個檢討有關於這一點向委員報告我們現在第一動要做的是建立國內廠商的能量當然從俄烏戰爭也好還有美國國防部最近推動的作為也好產製無人機"},{"start":14341.127,"end":14365.009,"text":"他可以採取非常分散性的做法所以首先要有商購的能量出現先有企業進入我們才有辦法進入到下一個階段地下化等等的那最後一個問題時間有限我們的包含將軍到校級的軍官他的工作如果萬一遇到重大事故他有幾個人可以去做替補三級四級"},{"start":14368.496,"end":14387.35,"text":"目前我們是有5級代理人的制度有代理人的制度我們有暫時跟平時的5級代理人的制度平時都有奉核可不可以簡單簡述一下5級代理的意思是什麼比如說營級的話就是營長副營長還有參謀主任以及營服務部長向下代理"},{"start":14394.062,"end":14409.345,"text":"如果我國的防空系統比方說這個指揮官遇到重大事故那接下來他們都知道相關的指令那也有辦法繼續執行反擊的能力可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":14410.12,"end":14427.727,"text":"報告委員是,作息是說明我們在不管是5級代理人,就是指揮官的代理另外第二個是在指揮中心也有分散部署跟相互代理的機制不管是防空或者是地面作戰或是海域作戰的作戰指管都有相應的規劃跟計畫今天在座的諸位也都有相應的規劃"},{"start":14429.628,"end":14456.582,"text":"每一位都有因為我們都是公開行程那我看到許多我們的指揮官都在這邊那所以只是要確認一下所有的可能性的推演相關的職務代理必須要用非常認真的態度去執行那要確保說所有的指令或者是通訊的這些相關的密碼密令等等都必須要有人可以承接"},{"start":14457.383,"end":14458.585,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":14475.971,"end":14492.711,"text":"主席 在堂的委員先進 列席的政府局長長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們中副部長以及副參謀總長執行官黃上將那請整平市的苗司長以及中科院的李院長在旁邊協助"},{"start":14494.122,"end":14510.204,"text":"好 請以上人員就備宣臺創委員好副部長好副總職好我們都算有小小的舊事啦尤其是我們屏東同鄉以你為榮好 現在呢我們看到了中東烽火起啊嘿 下一頁"},{"start":14511.445,"end":14518.95,"text":"那麼我去剛好上個月去出行的一個印度瑞辛納的一個論壇有114個國家超過700個代表參加我有幸參加討論台海安全的部分結果在我旁邊呢有一個上將是前印度的參謀長陸軍參謀長在我旁邊的是目前高市早苗總理大臣的補佐官算是行政院的類似副秘書長是空軍少將退下來的我呢是公財補給下士啦"},{"start":14541.085,"end":14558.637,"text":"但是呢這個不是在談這個軍事專業我們還看到了英國的前首相蘇納克說嚇阻台海衝突的重要性比這個荷末斯海峽更重要所以呢大家都在關注烏二以及美伊的這些部分那麼有一句話說有人說後勤決定勝敗甚至現在的戰爭打的是工業生產力請問副部長您同意嗎同意"},{"start":14565.161,"end":14593.014,"text":"我們看一下伊朗怎麼去處理這個我是念歷史的在戰國冊裡面有一個叫做下士對上士知道這個典故嗎伊朗就是這樣他拿兩萬塊美金的建政者136去對付讓你消耗你美國愛國者四百萬美金的飛彈那用飽和攻擊消耗掉你的高價武器用下士耗掉你的上士再讓他的上士對你的中士用他的中士對你的下士這樣的一個戰術思維大概這幾千年來都有這樣的副黨也同意吧"},{"start":14593.294,"end":14604.626,"text":"伊朗是不是這樣做是是這樣做好因此我們看到了因此這些下市也很重要我就是公財補給下市下市也很重要但是我們看到這兩天的新聞就突然月滿軍購有助軍工產業大爆發估計可以高達"},{"start":14609.31,"end":14611.993,"text":"創造出4000億的產值 事實上去年的產值高達2300億其中無人機屬於下市的佔了129億我是不知道怎麼算出來的啦但是我們 他告訴我們 我們不能只投資上市不能只投資潛艦啊 這個最新的戰機"},{"start":14625.826,"end":14639.179,"text":"而且呢也要投資像無人機那麼您認為台灣在投資無人機我們該怎麼做目前我們整機的製造少但是我們的零件會外銷全球副部長你怎麼看待目前台灣無人機產業工業的這個情況"},{"start":14641.583,"end":14667.018,"text":"跟委員報告整個目前我們整個無人機的產業跟規劃國安部有分三個步驟來做相關的一個推進第一個部分是我們希望能夠立即強化國軍的無人機的戰力這個部分我們就是採國內廠商以及國外成熟的無人機的商品部長我打斷你因為這個題目我關心很久了"},{"start":14667.358,"end":14686.008,"text":"到目前為止不管是海委會海巡署還是我們國防部整機的得標者呢大部分還是國外的供應商比國內的整機更有優勢你同意嗎好 那什麼原因我來跟你講往下看其實目前就算是無人機也有軍用軍規跟軍用商規的像MQ-9"},{"start":14687.629,"end":14703.963,"text":"B這是美國使神他才能做啊這個我們國家大概沒有辦法但是這些軍用商規的我們國家可以但是受限於我們的國防採購的規模較小所以目前如果要讓軍用商規的擴大一定要增加商用的市場不能只靠國軍採購同意嗎同意好 那我們接下來看"},{"start":14707.185,"end":14711.627,"text":"但是我們來看一下到底這樣的一個供應鏈過去無人機的產業我們借鏡民航機來看Airbus跟波音它的競爭關係波音美國那麼大從引擎導航機身它什麼都可以做但是歐盟不一樣他們要分工有的做機體有的做翅膀有的做引擎你同意嗎"},{"start":14726.053,"end":14746.524,"text":"所以這裡面就有一個供應鏈分工還有一個美國怎麼厲害他就算整家都得做他不會全做我們屏東的加工出口區就有廠商在專門接波音的鋁合金的零組件但是要通過什麼通過波音的認證那你大概知道這個四等性吧所以同樣的話告訴你說目前本土的無人機去年129億有100億的外銷是零組件到波蘭捷克跟美國"},{"start":14751.446,"end":14773.767,"text":"到美國的部分你要取得認證波蘭跟捷克它當然去紅就可以我們往下看所以我們看到美國現在有Green跟Blue的嘛是不是這樣目前我們台灣能夠賣到美國的零組件大概都有到Green的有的要去拿Blue它才有辦法進去但是我們看到了我們零組件型整機有沒有辦法有沒有可能跟美國競爭"},{"start":14775.855,"end":14788.61,"text":"系統開發對 必須要看廠商他取不取得這個綠色跟藍色等等假設他在美國那個是指零組件對也就是說我整機我居然是全部我都有辦法拿到綠色 藍色的我整機的開發系統啊還是要實測嘛"},{"start":14791.707,"end":14801.414,"text":"對 所以說如果我沒有足夠的實測我沒辦法跟美國跟烏克蘭競爭嘛因為他們是有實際的經驗誰要買你台灣沒有經過戰場驗證的 對不對所以說我們現在需要什麼呢需要兩個東西一個是驗證機構也就是說軍方可能沒有辦法來提供驗證但是國內應該讓經濟部像以前的車測中心他就為我們的我們台灣雖然不能做整輛的汽車外銷但是我們的汽車零組件外銷的很多就是因為我們有驗證中心這個是不是國防部的權責"},{"start":14821.808,"end":14836.381,"text":"這個在行政院有整體的規劃目前在117年在民雄那是誰負責哪個部會負責這個部分是行政院以及我們中科院共同來配合推動經濟部也要參與但是不是國防部的 國防部是什麼除了驗證之外要實測實測的場域在誰手上我們防護總值是不是這樣空軍是不是過去用掉了大部分的空域"},{"start":14848.707,"end":14870.206,"text":"有一部分是在國防部管制的這種...是的 我要說的是說台灣的戰場情境跟烏克蘭不同他們過來要大量的海洋海洋跟山林它在地表的特徵是完全不同的如果我們的無人機的實測不能取得各種戰場情境的場域去是非我們的整機是沒辦法跟人家競爭的 你同意嗎"},{"start":14870.686,"end":14898.66,"text":"同意 現在整個行政院已經有規劃幾個水上大型無人機測試的場域包含在屏東以及在南部的海域是的 所以這裡我要給您建議您可以看最近台航的總經理他發表了一篇文章我覺得蠻有道理的他說除了這些現場實測的場域之外軍方要開放之外還有實際搭載武器現在我們整機的無人艇或無人機要做到了雖然是商規要軍用它一定要有火力彈藥"},{"start":14899.82,"end":14926.727,"text":"這個部分在國內是管制品我不可能我隨便去買一個去路邊買一個榴彈我就掛在我的四軸無人機我去試飛看會炸的中炸不中不可能一定要軍方協助所以未來5G的搭載也是一個課題再往下看所以我們現在美軍他也積極的去學習烏克蘭跟伊朗的經驗烏克蘭派無人機專家去到美國的約旦基地去協防美國的無人機也偷偷的把伊朗的做逆向工程把它整個拷貝過去了"},{"start":14928.027,"end":14953.16,"text":"美國這樣的做法會不會說以那麼高科技的國家來學習這種低級的技術你會不會覺得他太委屈了還是覺得這是很務實的做法這是很務實的做法 現在我們國軍也在做很好 那我就是說了所以說我們看到我們看到鄭恩斯基他說無人機的經驗開始來協助對抗伊朗但是以色列怎麼做 烏克蘭怎麼做我們國防部的官方說我們要主動反制 被動防禦等還要持續的引進新興科技 怎麼引進"},{"start":14955.054,"end":14964.002,"text":"我們的外交處境這麼艱難你有辦法派我們的制服的軍方人員去嗎我舉例啦民間常常開玩笑說現在台灣有很多美語教師啊什麼是美語教師就是美方的軍事人員來我們這邊跟我們做軍事技術交流的嘛你覺得我們台灣可以派台語教師去烏克蘭嗎"},{"start":14977.205,"end":15000.544,"text":"簡單說說我們現在跟國外其實有相關的無人機合作技術的交流跟發展尤其在各無人機的訓練中也有相關的交流那這個部分可以單獨再跟委員沒有關係你單獨私下講我可以公開的講什麼其實烏克蘭台灣的科大教育很發達科大的系統有很多我們台灣的科系是具有這樣的一個基礎工程能力的"},{"start":15001.364,"end":15015.767,"text":"烏克蘭的大學他們目前也類似科大全力在支援烏克蘭軍方他們在這些無人機的相關的工程電子零件而且呢他們也很佩服台灣他們認為台灣的電子零件而工程上很先進所以有沒有可能我們從台灣的科大找這些電子工程機械相關領域的專家或教授甚至高階的研究生去跟烏克蘭的科大交流一下你覺得有沒有幫助"},{"start":15028.258,"end":15053.286,"text":"這個可能要牽涉到我們現在跟這個虎尾科大幾個學校有做我都還沒說出名字你就說出來了虎尾科大對虎尾科大是國內目前啊這個相關航空領域他很積極的對 覺溫裕校長我都跟他很熟所以呢你跟虎尾科大有什麼合作我們現在確實有跟他做一些協助性的一個合作跟交流也有一些協助研究請他們再做那他們能不能到烏克蘭去這可能我們就是不是"},{"start":15054.06,"end":15079.596,"text":"這個就需要行政院包括外交部跟教育部去協助其實我剛從印度回來台灣很多跟非邦交國我們是透過這種科學研究的教育交流的方式去能建立關係所以呢這個部分請副部長要跟部長報告一下幫我們爭取國防部爭取這個台語教師到烏克蘭好不好就是我們看最後的三個結論就是跟部會共商建立我國軍用商規的認證機制這可能中科院"},{"start":15080.276,"end":15088.882,"text":"跟我們的經濟部要協助我們的供應鏈的取得比照美國Green跟Blue的第二個這個是你們可以做到的無人機載具的這個不是封測測試啦實測的場域可以嗎可以 現在已經有了合理的提供武器測試的一個申請流程可以嗎"},{"start":15099.594,"end":15118.761,"text":"也有了最後請你們在行政院爭取請外交部跟教育部協助讓我們台灣具有烏克蘭也希望跟我們交流經驗的包括電子工程師包括機械工程師包括這些學士後的這些比較高階的研究人員可以用科技大學跟科技大學的方式去交流取得一些烏克蘭的經驗你支持嗎這部分我們努力努力好謝謝"},{"start":15127.577,"end":15131.08,"text":"謝謝 接下來請蔡易瑜委員上台質詢謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請副部長還有中科院的院長 軍備局的局長院長 軍備局長"},{"start":15155.902,"end":15179.836,"text":"蔡委員好副部長好我想要請教副部長現在在民雄的航太基地未來會變成無人機發展的重點中心我想要請教的是中科院目前整個基地的開發進度如何可不可以說明一下"},{"start":15182.711,"end":15209.162,"text":"跟委員報告整個民雄基地分東西兩邊東邊是軍用的部分也是我們中科院的部分那個我們會在今年完成整個人員的進駐未來國內所有無人機就是不管是軍用商規或是軍用軍規的檢測和實驗都會在東側這個部分來進行西側的部分是要開放給廠商進駐的我們已經完成了整個規劃設計也完成了招商說明那預計在這個月我們收到縣府的環評之後"},{"start":15211.363,"end":15225.228,"text":"環評報告之後我們會辦理招標的工作一切從招標之日開始兩年半之內可以完成所以東側的部分就是中科院這邊自己來開發嘛那麼預定年底都可以進駐"},{"start":15227.209,"end":15232.434,"text":"那接下來當然重點就是剛剛說的嘛很多無人機的一些測試那一些檢測的可能就會在這邊那這個檢測是包括這個商用的呢還是單純只是軍用的一個檢測軍用商用的檢測都會在這邊進行就一併都會在東側這裡進行對我們實驗室也會開放好那再進一步的請教"},{"start":15252.072,"end":15271.327,"text":"我們現在國內對於整個無人機的一個產業無人機現在甚至包括無人船那基本上都是非常的重要尤其是我們看到整個戰爭形態的改變接下來幾乎都是無人載具而且現在我看到無人機的技術現在幾乎都搭配AI了"},{"start":15272.108,"end":15295.794,"text":"就是說連人操作都不用那個人都是輔助而已啦無人機給他裝個AI,AI設定好他自己就去找目標甚至他還可以已經發展到的說反無人機系統也是透過AI自己去對抗無人機所以大概會整個配合整個AI的一個運作然後讓無人機會更加的成熟那未來"},{"start":15296.954,"end":15315.572,"text":"我們軍方現在要採購的無人機我們是會就是像我剛說的直接用最先進的無人機直接就讓軍方去採購還是我們是以訓練為導向先讓阿兵哥學會操作無人機這個是你們現在的一個方向是怎樣呢"},{"start":15319.335,"end":15325.857,"text":"剛剛委員報告我們區分了兩個部分第一個是訓練機的部分由我們的訓練部門會編列訓練預算來採購一些訓練機那至於我們軍備局剛剛委員所提出來的這個是我們全部都是我們軍備局來負責我們所有攻擊機的採購"},{"start":15338.422,"end":15367.224,"text":"那供應機的採購現在已經做了兩次的招商會每次都是兩三百家的廠商來非常的熱絡那我們已經做好的整個採購計畫帶特別預算核定之後我們就會上網公告招標那整個無電機的產業就會結合雅創結合我們剛剛我們總管院長所說明的民雄一個無電機的園區再加上我們的後續的一個六甲跟砂輪的部分我們整個無電機的產業"},{"start":15368.545,"end":15379.469,"text":"會朝這個方向應該會蓬勃的發展 以上說明產業的部分就是說採購無人機包括訓練機 包括可以用在戰場的那訓練機的部分你們是朝向說未來國軍是每個人都要接受訓練還是要專有的一個部隊來接受訓練"},{"start":15393.769,"end":15414.899,"text":"我們國軍的無人機有分為無人機的專業部隊還有一般的一個使用的部隊我們的坐機室還有我們的相關的訓練部門都已經做好了完整的規劃並且陸軍和海軍分別都有一個無人機的訓練中心我們採購的無人機的規格就是等同我們攻擊機的規格那這個無人機的訓練中心在哪裡"},{"start":15416.78,"end":15430.166,"text":"我先跟委員說一下說明就是說我們現在無人機的訓練包含到我們在入伍階段或者是我們在後備集中訓練這個召集的階段都有實施無人機的一個機組的訓練"},{"start":15431.767,"end":15459.936,"text":"在這個訓練最基本是要讓所有人了解以及能夠簡易的操作無人機那第二個部分就是現在陸海空軍都有成立無人機的訓練中心那這個無人機的訓練中心它有兩個目的第一個部分是能夠幫所有的戰鬥部隊來訓練無人機的操作手第二個是我們希望他們能夠發揮師資的功能授訓完之後能夠擴大這個成效回到各部門能夠教授無人機的這個技巧"},{"start":15460.862,"end":15488.496,"text":"好就是說無人機這類產業啦我想國軍除了說我們透過軍用商規讓國內的無人機這個產業可以帶動起來之外人才的訓練非常重要所以剛剛嘉賓委員講到虎科大虎科大現在就是扮演整個他大概站在是科技的研發那邊但是基礎的人才訓練我認為國軍還是得自己來所以我剛在問的就是說你們未來這個訓練中心"},{"start":15490.939,"end":15512.353,"text":"是要怎麼去強化然後去落實這樣它的整個訓練計畫至少讓國軍可以懂得無人機不會說一隻來然後牠們懵懵懂懂好像會又好像不會我覺得現在年輕人你大概讓牠摸個幾次牠就熟了所以應該是說盡量讓大家都可以接觸到無人機"},{"start":15513.193,"end":15529.564,"text":"那他有這樣的印象後這個記憶他就會留下來以後任何時候有需要的時候他都可以用無人機可以直接去操作無人機現在的訓練真的是按照剛剛委員的指導剛剛現在其實已經很早在去年就已經在進行當中都在進行好那就加油謝謝"},{"start":15541.445,"end":15567.547,"text":"好 已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限則從其鎖定本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}