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宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉第十一屆第五會期本會召集委員主席宣告推選翁委員小林莊委員瑞雄為立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法制委員會召集委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":1570.281,"end":1589.188,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話那麼我們議事錄就確定那麼現在我先介紹今天到場的委員以及應邀列席的官員首先我們這裡有吳宗憲委員還有陳道志委員"},{"start":1590.575,"end":1613.336,"text":"好 謝謝 然後今天列席的官員有鄭明謙部長還有法務部的政次謀信吳次長法務部調查局的副局長吳富梅還有法務部行政執行署的廟卓然署長法務部廉政署的謝明貫署長還有法務部矯正署的林憲明署長"},{"start":1614.69,"end":1641.063,"text":"好 那其餘的列席官員本席就不再一一介紹了會列入公報記錄那本次會議的排定是週三週四兩天一次會我們就先進行今天的議程首先我們先邀請防務部正部長帥叔叔主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫並被質詢有請正部長那報告時間就以五分鐘為限好 謝謝"},{"start":1645.627,"end":1670.494,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 各位同仁 大家早安 大家好那今日應貴委員會邀請率法務部團隊進行業務報告並被質詢 以下則要報告進行指教那本部中央的施政的一個重點第一就是持續推動武打其安 安定秩序守護公寓修正扎西犯罪危害防治條例提高"},{"start":1671.098,"end":1681.161,"text":"刑法強化犯罪被害補償 增訂犯罪禁止管制檔 並持續推動打詐綱領2.0 114年查緝詐欺團數之分類指標達成率為141.1%大幅超標解114年電信詐欺及人頭詐戶 行說案件數與113年比較曾下降趨勢 其中人頭詐戶約下降近兩成且其佔電信詐欺案件比"},{"start":1698.166,"end":1716.804,"text":"一百一十二年最高峰比較到下降近三成顯著像政府打炸策略一鍵初步的一個成效那再來就是推動清世代反毒策略行動綱領執行十三波的案具企圖專案向下刨根挖掘食用黑素避免毒害的擴大推動科技"},{"start":1718.145,"end":1734.432,"text":"偵查電信網路詐欺經濟金融不法案件打擊黑幫組織食安局利潤犯罪等安定經濟秩序以社會安全防止破壞國土保育再來就是法治這一部分修正刑法無期徒刑徹甲執行殘刑及特殊狀況"},{"start":1735.952,"end":1762.127,"text":"不得繳釋等規定已經大院三讀通過至115年3月14日施行再就是國家安全法這部分有強化國家安全法規的一個密度你去知恐防治法完備知恐及知恐的法制以上修法經經行政院的審議審查通過送請大院來審理那進行國民法官性質作為因應115年除少年刑事"},{"start":1763.027,"end":1788.306,"text":"案件及毒品案件外最新本行為10年以上有機毒品案件一適用國民法官法的挑戰那另外調整數據官增資專業甲級從4700元增至6070元那再來就是接軌國際廉政的趨勢提升廉政治理成效那2025年全球青年印象指數的排名台灣排名第24名分之68分"},{"start":1789.407,"end":1810.927,"text":"在全球182個國家地區中我們是佔比是前六分之一的運聲的一個譯名或是提升一分都是史上最好的成績那推動聯合國反貪污公約住址審查機制於2015年8月間舉行第三次國家報告國際審查回應接軌全球反貪污趨勢與國際法制"},{"start":1813.149,"end":1836.522,"text":"那積極建制階幣者保護法相關配套措施及施行細則那再來就是人權保障措施這部分呢也籌辦兩公會 第四是國家報告國際審查會議預計在今年5月11日這15日舉行那另外辦理貧富威權統治十起國家不法案件促進轉型正義條例中勢北及處置加害者事項進行研修"},{"start":1837.863,"end":1862.38,"text":"另外在研擬建構多元的一個處域強化預證管理的一個成效研擬掃腳效實施條例掃關鎖的處域實施條例推動收容人熱領健康照護的計畫提供高齡身心障礙收容人友善的一個環境那另外柔性施法這部分全面推動犯罪被害補償新制擴展醫療關懷聯盟保護的一個服務目前已經有56位醫師"},{"start":1868.164,"end":1881.093,"text":"呃相關的工會及1660個醫療院所來合作來減免醫療掛號的等支出那另外再提升耕寶服務量能擴大耕寶事業群網絡銜接執訊與就業醫事呢有69家優質企業廠商及3家自營商參與了"},{"start":1888.718,"end":1911.971,"text":"另外在司法付諸這部分完成台英第三屆受刑的移交案件強化打擊跨國組織犯罪、虛擬資產犯罪及追討不法所得的國際交流調查者積極偵辦中資企業在台挖角防護國家關鍵技術與機密強化國家四大安全防護防止邊境敵對勢力的滲透"},{"start":1914.152,"end":1939.349,"text":"面臨疫情時代 本部呼應總統傑出的民主台灣 經濟台灣 任性台灣為主的三大國家發展策略創新思維 深化打擊犯罪能量 推動人權保障及轉型正義建構矯正階段性的處理 行使溫暖有感的柔性司法 剛柔並濟完善行政執行程序 強化國家防護"},{"start":1940.59,"end":1950.303,"text":"機制讓青年台灣世界同步其能透過公式協力維護司法威信守護台灣民主保障國人的安全與福祉以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":1954.838,"end":1976.937,"text":"好 謝謝政務長 時間掌握得非常好很辛苦了那麼接下來我們就先開始進行詢答那本會委員的時間原則上為8分鐘必要時候得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘並不再延長那麼我們上午10點半就截止發言登記首先我們先請登記第一位的吳宗憲委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":1982.18,"end":1992.886,"text":"好 謝謝麻煩部長還有廉政署署長兩位早安有請部長還有廉政署署長好"},{"start":1996.328,"end":2018.654,"text":"好兩位早安部長署長今天的業務報告我看你們報告裡面有提到114年整合型的專案清查的成果那貪瀆線鎖48件含送一般非法是100件那我想請問一下我先請問第一個問題你們自己有寫到清查的主題包括公有財務的保管處分對不對這是你們清查的範圍嗎是不是是"},{"start":2021.778,"end":2049.132,"text":"這部分是一定是有包括公有財務的一個管理那部長這公務車的公有財務的使用管理集合啊這個是不是廉政署的政風體系他應該要做的督導還有防弊的職責的確是這個一個督導我們會做一個專案的一個清查另外那個廉政署其實在去年的7月3日有訂立公務車使用管理廉政職員謝謝政風機構來協助"},{"start":2051.513,"end":2079.945,"text":"那我想請問一下你們這次的報告貪瀆線所38件裡面有沒有包括到監委私用公務車這38件有沒有包含到監委私用公務車有沒有哪一位可以給署長或部長提示的這部分是不是請廉政署來可以趕快說明一下嗎這一部分台北地檢署已經在偵辦中"},{"start":2080.987,"end":2088.361,"text":"我是說正風系統因為署長那個你是正風嘛正風系統有沒有正在38件裡面有沒有正在38件裡面"},{"start":2093.358,"end":2117.631,"text":"38件裡面沒有那這樣子很奇怪因為我知道當然監察院他的紀律委員會有調查那這樣子的話這個政風不用介入調查因為您剛剛你們有說公有財務的保管處分也是政風體系要調查業務範圍內可是這次38件的線索裡面卻沒有跟監察委員使用公務車有關"},{"start":2118.351,"end":2145.626,"text":"那這個監察院的政風系 政風人員那不是就沒有存在的價值嗎 署長那這部分我們了解看看當然那個監察院他自己對公務員本身他的連結監察院也有職責去調查紀律委員會嘛 署長做的紀律委員會那我的意思是這樣 因為你們剛剛有提到政風 公有財務的保管處分這個是政風要管的"},{"start":2146.306,"end":2172.799,"text":"那但是在這一次裡面卻沒有任何一個案子跟這些監委有關但是從監察院2月6號的新聞稿裡面他有提到幾個他說林玉榮委員用公務車到機場接送親友他要求口頭跟書面道歉那王榮章委員他搭公務車去理髮要促請他注意那蘇麗瓊委員去看牙醫搭公務車那他們認為說因為還要回來上班所以這個難以苛責啦"},{"start":2176.241,"end":2201.529,"text":"那我的意思是說紀律委員會有做他的職責有去調查沒有錯但是政風卻完全沒有管因為這兩個是不同體系你政風不能不調查因為不是所有的機關都有紀律委員會監察院有其他機關沒有我回過頭來要講的就是一個很重要的點就是那如果沒有的話那如果依照監察院的紀律委員會告訴大家的結果是我只要"},{"start":2202.6,"end":2218.025,"text":"去搭公務車去看個牙齒然後等一下只要再回來上班那這個部分呢就沒有問題那是不是全國的公務員可以比照辦理那全國的政風也不用去查這個事是不是署長您的意思呢"},{"start":2219.178,"end":2230.685,"text":"跟委員報告 廉政署在114年7月3號他有訂定一個公務車使用管理廉政的指引我們已經有發函各政風單位 協助機關來檢視了解公務車的使用有沒有什麼樣的一個風險來加強控管"},{"start":2238.775,"end":2253.741,"text":"所以我的意思是這樣啦齁我剛剛提了幾個點第一個監察院的陣風並沒有讓我看到他有真的在查這件事情所以我要了解的是那他的監察院的陣風他存在的價值在哪裡還是他就不做事了這第一個"},{"start":2254.281,"end":2275.154,"text":"第二個就是說如果依照監察院他們對自己的要求他寬以律己的要求認為呢你搭公務車去理髮就促請他注意那你搭公務車去看牙齒等一下如果有回來上班這個就沒問題不用苛責那如果這一套標準如果是的話那我們將來是不是我們要告訴我們全國的政風"},{"start":2275.894,"end":2301.596,"text":"人員說這個這套標準是這樣所以以後全國的公務員大大小小公務員你只要搭公務車出去看個牙齒回來繼續上班就沒有關係因為我要的是標準我不是苛責這個我不是找這些監委麻煩我也不是苛責我只是說全國你要有同一套標準不能說我面對自己的面對高官的時候我的標準非常的寬但是如果今天一個基層的檢察官他坐公務車去看牙齒再回來繼續寫書類"},{"start":2303.157,"end":2327.089,"text":"那就要處分他我的意思只是這樣不能有不一樣的標準但是我在這件事情上面看到似乎有不一樣的標準署長我不知道您的意思怎麼樣因為監察院的紀律委員會已經這樣子做出結論了那監察院的政風也沒有調查那我不知道您轄下的各機關的政風將來遇到這個事你會要他管還是要他不管"},{"start":2328.34,"end":2344.478,"text":"委員報告 剛剛有報全國我們就是依公務車使用管理廉政指引這個來控管那另外在監察院政風的部分他有進行已經進行內部的集合他因為本身也掌管公務員的官僧"},{"start":2345.599,"end":2360.708,"text":"那你那個指引有包括要怎麼樣處理嗎有 全國都有這樣好了啦我想這部分是不是麻煩您在一個月內能夠回覆一下回覆給我監察院政風體系到底有沒有喪失功能"},{"start":2362.377,"end":2387.299,"text":"這個部分可以回覆我一下你們要跟我們講為什麼這次監察院的政務體系沒有啟動調查這是第一個第二個公務車的部分你們的指引會不會跟監察院紀律委員會的結論矛盾會不會監察院紀律委員會說監察委員都不用處理但是全國的公務員你要被處分好不好這部分麻煩你一個月回覆第二個我請調查局跟年證署也一起上來備詢"},{"start":2389.48,"end":2415.074,"text":"我請教一下 因為我現在講一個一年前發生的案子那因為這跟毒品也有關係有一個零性男子毒駕撞死的一個老師那後來被發現他是在吸食那個殭屍煙袋那法務部這次給我們的業務報告也寫得很清楚114年第13波查緝毒品的專案裡面就有說依托彌子他列為查緝的重點"},{"start":2416.555,"end":2444.301,"text":"所以法務部早就知道這個東西他已經進入社會而且他會上路會出人命所以法務部才會加強的管理那我想第一個我先請教部長這個被告他是毒品列管的人口也有毒品前科也有重傷害前科那現在被羈押了我想問這種人可以開車上路那等於被政府放生嘛那全民會說那到底政府在哪裡問題出在哪裡部長"},{"start":2445.982,"end":2471.745,"text":"這個管理上面是不是有問題啊這個獨駕的我也很重視啦那我想我們都是對獨駕是零容忍尤其還有肇事那這部分獨駕的確引起最近有些獨駕案件造成人命得意的傷害引起社會很大的關注所以我們這部分基層的檢察官在懲罰前我們都是會速查嚴辦所以我們說這部分會生壓那基本法院也都很支持部長"},{"start":2472.845,"end":2490.854,"text":"這講這個都沒有問題基層檢察官都非常辛苦我那些老同事常常都打電話跟我跟我在那邊抱怨很多事所以我很清楚但是喔我現在要講的是另外一個問題我知道獨駕上路不是只有法務部的責任跟警察跟交通部的法規都有關聯性但是呢"},{"start":2491.434,"end":2514.502,"text":"我從去年10月我曾經質詢過苗栗隨機殺人案我在那個案子的時候我已經有提過一個點就是法務部我們有很多預算是讓法務部去管理整個前科表或一些資料那些資料本來是可以去做一些預防或高風險的評估就像一些金融他們有一些什麼紅旗警訊等等的把某些人可以列為一些高風險"},{"start":2516.463,"end":2537.012,"text":"防護部的系統本來就有毒品人口他出監前的轉嫌啊社區追蹤輔導更生保護關戶還有毒品那個防治中心還有一些資料銜接的這些資源都在你們手上所以你們對於這些高風險的人口其實你們是能掌握的那從去年10月我就一直說"},{"start":2538.772,"end":2557.343,"text":"從隨機殺人案我們可以看到這些資料法務部有法務部有沒有辦法去跟其他的單位能夠大家一起串聯起來看看可不可以對這些高風險的人口能夠多做一些管制譬如說我先提幾個我個人的淺見對於那些高風險的人口譬如說一些獨家"},{"start":2558.624,"end":2583.618,"text":"毒品人口 重大暴力犯罪的人我們對於這些族群我們有沒有建立一個跨單位的轉介跟追蹤的機制存在再來一線執法的一些科技設備譬如說監視器 車牌辨識系統車輛互聯網等等的這些東西有沒有利用這些來做一些預防還有你們有沒有去看這些出獄之後"},{"start":2585.439,"end":2605.379,"text":"再犯率就業率還有那個治療完成率這些一起綜合的評估去知道誰是重大風險者因為法務部你必須做到前端的預防中端的查緝跟末端的矯正啊你們到底從去年10月到現在你們有沒有哪一套系統或哪一個機制真的建立起來能夠做這個預防"},{"start":2608.219,"end":2625.623,"text":"跟委員報告事實上他提到的這就是以後前科的資料就是涉及到一個特種的一個個資那我們想這部分我們本部會再研立要找那個委員的一些寶貴的一些去年十月我已經提過就從隨機殺讓我就提過因為我還是這麼認為因為我第一線出"},{"start":2629.504,"end":2646.811,"text":"實務出來的嘛因為制度如果只剩下紙上文書啊那人民的感覺就會覺得被政府放生了他安全沒有得到保障他們會害怕所以我才會說是不是可以把這些資料綜合起來我們做一個誰是高風險者的預先預先能夠把這些"},{"start":2648.491,"end":2664.34,"text":"這些悲劇我們把它預防掉因為跟部長報告羈押只能安撫今天人民的憤怒你們把它押起來沒錯安撫了憤怒而已但是你只有把這套制度建立起來你才能夠預防下一次的遺憾發生"},{"start":2665.3,"end":2682.852,"text":"所以我們的政府的存在是要讓人民幸福而不是只是演給人民看而已所以我還是拜託部長因為這些數據這些資料都在貴部的手上是不是可以麻煩貴部能夠像我剛剛講的那幾個點能夠把它做好建立起一套"},{"start":2683.692,"end":2710.049,"text":"那個預警的機制然後對這些人能夠去控管需要相關的修法你都可以跟我們講立法院這邊全力的配合人民要的是安全耶人民不是要看這個人被關幾年耶那個對人民沒有用啊這個老師被撞死他家家屬痛不欲生啊他們在乎的是這個他不是在乎這個人會不會被羈押啦好不好部長再麻煩你這段那可不可以兩個月內給我一份初步的"},{"start":2710.629,"end":2714.693,"text":"你們的流程要怎麼走 好不好 兩個月這個時間蠻長 兩個月給我一下那最後 兩分鐘我還是跟部長談一下那個無期徒刑這個問題啦 假設撤銷這個因為我還是要再提一個"},{"start":2731.403,"end":2756.757,"text":"這個2013年宪判2號這個宣告無期徒刑的假釋犯那當時在宪判制的時候依照現有的制度當時大法官就已經說3月14號是最後修法的期限如果沒有過的話就是你們貴部也是公開說這些無期徒刑犯可能會被放回社會這是貴部講的嘛但是呢你們的這個流程其實速度我其實是存疑的啦因為"},{"start":2757.932,"end":2769.197,"text":"大法官給的是兩年是24個月但是呢你們司法那個那個行政院他卻到最後剩下三個月才送到"},{"start":2770.253,"end":2791.542,"text":"立法院而且這三個月裡面我們今年是沒有休會我知道但是依照過往的制度12月31號就休會了等於你們12月3號送到立法院如果依照過往的制度有兩個月休會你只剩下一個月要處理整個三讀的流程那今年雖然沒有休會但是你12月3號送進來之後"},{"start":2793.769,"end":2816.427,"text":"結果也沒有人來跟召委報告說這個要優先凡要趕快審都沒有啊所以大家都不知道那你們也沒有爭取要優先討論也沒有主動跟黨團說有這個案子其實這個跟過往的做法都不一樣過往因為修法是貴部主責嘛那過往貴部如果有發現一個案子很緊急他會趕快跟"},{"start":2817.968,"end":2845,"text":"趙偉說趕快跟黨團說然後我們才急著把這個東西處理好結果這次都沒有結果到最後剩下幾天我們才知道有這件事情然後才緊急的幾天內趕快進附二讀趕快給他通過雖然這個修法我們三黨都支持但是這個程序上面我覺得是不是要跟同仁溝通你這對很多立委都對這件事情不滿最後跟部長報告這件事情"},{"start":2847.302,"end":2859.899,"text":"24個月就行政院搞了21個月才送出來剩下三個月的時間裡面還有過年還有原本以前是休會的期間硬的三讀就大家連討論也沒辦法也沒有時間討論什麼都沒有討論"},{"start":2862.563,"end":2887.017,"text":"剩下幾天硬給他通過因為我們也擔心這些無期徒刑犯放回社會對社會安全造成的影響所以大家就有共識趕快給他過所以我的意思只是這樣是不是以後像這種重大跟民生有關緊急的事情你們可以送來之後趕快跟黨團說跟召委說然後爭取優先排案讓我們趕快審查我們才有時間討論好不好這部分麻煩部長"},{"start":2888.517,"end":2913.508,"text":"這個謝謝委員各黨團修法完成謝謝這麻煩你要講因為檢察官辦案都有辦案期限啊三個月沒進行還會被長官電啊這我們都知道嘛那不能說這樣子你只有三位送進來然後我們根本立委其實立委對這一個案子其實還蠻反彈的我不管藍綠其實對這個為什麼剩下那麼短時間都很有意見好不好跟部長報告這個事情好就這樣好謝謝部長"},{"start":2916.012,"end":2937.545,"text":"謝謝吳委員這邊也要提醒法務部回去再檢視一下看看有沒有哪些大法官宣告說幾年真的要修法的然後法務部這裡到目前為止還沒有提出修法案麻煩回去盤點一下好不好到底有哪些法案是有時效的期間要儘速提到司委會來謝謝"},{"start":2942.073,"end":2946.377,"text":"好 那接下來我們有請陳昭芝委員發言 謝謝也很歡迎陳昭芝委員加入我們四委會謝謝 謝謝主席有請部長 鄭部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":2964.621,"end":2983.556,"text":"部長早安部長早部長你看到我今天的題目詐騙集團比法務部更懂得利用刑法因為刑法是由法務部由你們來主管那我會形容詐騙某一些領域他的犯罪他的罪犯是在跟法務部賽跑"},{"start":2984.136,"end":2992.279,"text":"但是我覺得詐騙集團這個部分,顯然法務部落後了很多好,那我今天就是要跟部長來談這個詐騙集團的部分部長,2024年卓院長上任,他講的這個口號,鄭天祥你看看,你看看右邊,他說我會讓詐騙想騙的不敢騙,已經騙的會被抓"},{"start":3007.705,"end":3031.689,"text":"已經到手的梅德花信誓旦旦讓全民宣誓就是說國家這個打詐隊要有這個決心但是兩年過去了法務部身為打詐這個國家隊的一個重要成員有讓我們看到成效嗎現在我們的感覺就是想詐騙的繼續騙已經騙到的不一定會被抓騙到手的大筆花"},{"start":3037.014,"end":3049.804,"text":"部長整個司法系統無論是警察無論是檢察官或是法官我知道都被這些詐騙案件簡直是癱瘓掉了部長您覺得是哪些環節出了問題呢"},{"start":3052.871,"end":3081.369,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個一個打架打炸的一個國家隊那個成立就是說我們在行政院有一個打炸的一個指揮中心那法務部也有一個打炸的一個小組麻煩部長更簡要的就是說您覺得哪些環節出我認為是我們這個打架國家隊的一個大家的一個努力事實上這是有成效的因為我們可以看出來一個指標就是打炸"},{"start":3082.129,"end":3105.579,"text":"一個儀表板的一個數據齁那在今年二月齁上個月齁其實較去年同期已經顯著的下降所以這個是有成效的受理件數已經降了27.6%財損的金額降了23%部長謝謝你因為您提的數字齁等一下我有別的數字也要一起跟您討論對那我想這個是一個一個最最精準的一個數字那整個新收的件數那因為我們查獲的兆頭我們查獲得增加了"},{"start":3107.64,"end":3114.245,"text":"增加了那個那個查獲的兆團3903件的比去年那個那個成長很多也就是說我們這個氣焰這個氣焰油壓下去壓下去那另外那個查獲的利得那個"},{"start":3124.452,"end":3129.655,"text":"歷得了也330億那透過偵查中的調解到56億我也是這一組新手謝謝部長的說明因為政府宣稱要抓這個騙子結果抓到的往往是我今天指的是打架的部分往往抓到就是被找去當車手的孩子"},{"start":3142.262,"end":3149.608,"text":"我們來看看這個在令人心驚膽戰的數字請部長參考這是2024年警政的統計官方是最後9月到12月4個月全台灣抓了5123名的少年的嫌犯部長你知道當中有多少年輕人是被打詐欺團黑化了嗎就是說有多少是涉及詐欺你有這個數字嗎"},{"start":3165.048,"end":3171.15,"text":"這部分因為這是少年事件有人知道嗎?5123名少年罪犯當中有多少是跟詐欺有關的嗎?跟委員報告因為這個少年的事件是屬於司法院主管所以要問司法院的數據就會精準我來告訴部長是有超過三分之一是34.37就是有1761名的詐欺少年我要跟部長講的是更離譜的"},{"start":3191.218,"end":3210.936,"text":"高達72.63%都是在第一線擋子站的車手當少年把日領、面膠這種當作暑假打工的一個工具請問部長 法務部除了宣導除了告訴孩子們說你們要負的法律責任之外這些孩子一旦留下前科"},{"start":3212.179,"end":3240.056,"text":"他甚至可能要附帶這個做民事賠償的這個連帶的這個賠償他們的人生等於還沒有開始就毀了耶部長這個數字您不知道我來告訴你三分之一的少年嫌犯是涉及煞車其中73%是當車手我想我都跟那個委員的立場都一致非常關心少年的一個被詐團的利用那事實上我們這個法律我們這次詐毀條例有修法就是"},{"start":3240.492,"end":3258.343,"text":"教所幫助利用少年來共犯詐欺罪有加重刑責二分之一那其實這個委員有關心這個跟少女事件處理法這就是司法院處管的法規那這份據我了解因為司法院對少女事件處理法這部分對少年的這部分"},{"start":3258.943,"end":3276.128,"text":"的這些犯罪的一個問題尤其我想這個司法院有做一個會檢討的營利謝謝部長講的加重刑法但我今天有另外的觀點我前面提到的是少年掉進這個詐騙集團他的陷阱困境但是從新聞我們又發現詐騙罪犯往往只抓得到車手"},{"start":3278.389,"end":3295.598,"text":"請問警察同仁這麼辛苦每年抓了大概上萬名的車手那為什麼詐騙事件還是跟蟑螂一樣抓不完打不死部長知道基層的警員跟這個檢察官他們最感到無力的部分是什麼嗎你可不可以很簡單的講他們覺得最無力的部分是什麼"},{"start":3297.776,"end":3321.845,"text":"就一個觀點我想這個大家都很辛苦啦不是只有警察辛苦警察辛苦我們真的是勞苦公關我們要以很大的他們趕到無力的點你有去了解嗎謝謝那我想我們辦案的團內不是只有警察還有檢察官還有我們調查局的同仁都非常的一個辛苦那我想大家一起努力也不要去因為詐騙的我等一下再給你繼續看數字啦"},{"start":3323.826,"end":3348.096,"text":"然後我想兆團經過大家的努力從那個跨機關的合作還有公司的協力我想這部分兆團這部分公司有氣焰最高的限我們把它壓下來而且反轉的趨勢這個詐騙集團把少年當作什麼呢黑幫免洗快的一個斷點我們抓到的永遠是冰山一角你花了這麼多的人力去打擊這個罪犯但對這些少年而說他們都是免洗快用過即丟"},{"start":3349.917,"end":3365.436,"text":"請問法務部這些躲在少年背後的成年主嫌,你現在有沒有更強硬的方法?有嗎?有或沒有?細節我可以不太記得,你有沒有去想過對這個背後的主嫌犯,路過更強硬的方法?"},{"start":3370.025,"end":3384.741,"text":"檢警說在抓這個少年後面的我們向他說有後面的操作的這些集團這些的組謀那我們希望透過這些少年事件處理法以及現在的一個機制我們看能不能拿到少年能夠做少年的筆錄"},{"start":3385.382,"end":3389.585,"text":"但是很多委員包括我們現在對少年的比喻我們現在沒辦法做少年的比喻所以這個很重要我後面很多重要的數字那另外我們也跟那個我們各地檢署也跟法院這邊也做一個協調是不是說少年可以給我們獲得這個比喻可以給我們我們會追溯上面把這些可惡的這些幕後的這些集團給揪出來"},{"start":3406.016,"end":3410.84,"text":"你看這個你們會說一定有在努力啦你看看這個法務部的數據你看這個法務部的數據喔這個不包含高檢署都是近三年來從各地地檢署的這個受理這個詐欺罪案案件被告他申請定職時刑"},{"start":3421.307,"end":3425.69,"text":"的一個件數你看2023年是3109件2023年是3508件到了去年是達到4340件六都的地方這個件數連年攀升那其中這個台中的地檢署增加的最快你看這個橘黃色的這個部分所以說定因執行的這個被當作詐團集團的招募人才的工具啦"},{"start":3446.141,"end":3453.366,"text":"一方面檢察官也累壞了法官也累壞了因為工作量太大部長你知道詐騙集團現在都把這個用定執行制度招攬車手小弟招攬這個犯罪成員嗎所以你看這個大攀升這是個警訊花這麼多時間力氣在追這個詐騙案但是在定執行的制度出了問題部長我給你看三個例子因為時間有限部長這是第一個我找了幾個定執行的這個案例給這個裁定給部長看"},{"start":3475.021,"end":3488.957,"text":"這一張張姓受刑人他這個詐欺犯了42次最後定執行刑事只有三年二個月您覺得合理嗎你暫時先不要問我我想這個是我後面還有更多我想這個是我們是不滿意所以我們要求我們有就宣導"},{"start":3489.838,"end":3493.039,"text":"因為訂執行業是法官訂的所以我們希望法官在訂執行業又具有他的妥當性能夠嚇阻這些早晨的企業所以有跟委員報告所以如果訂執行業像委員這種我們是希望就是也要求檢察官能夠判告能夠糾正這些輕判的這些的現象"},{"start":3510.504,"end":3517.268,"text":"下面這個案子是高院裁定 臨序受刑原本台灣地安法院法官對他做11個詐欺犯罪的判定是8年6個月結果高院說 你看我把它框起來 那是他講的話刑刑恐將偏重過客 不服現代刑事政策及刑罰社會功能第一次犯罪才剛滿18歲 原審就付表各罪組應執行刑違有期徒刑8年6個月 容有過重"},{"start":3534.738,"end":3551.007,"text":"那他雖然認為被告抗告有利啊就改成四年六個月部長你看到這個定執行刑的裁定喔我再給你看這個數字我再看了那個檢察官齁我看檢察官看到法官的這樣八年六個月馬上降到四年六個月我想也是不滿意啦齁那所以因為這個問題齁跟委員報告我們是嚴厲修法宿醉病法定執行這邊修法齁"},{"start":3557.951,"end":3559.493,"text":"台中地院的裁定更誇張黃姓受刑人本來被宣告的刑度總共加起來是11年4個月"},{"start":3579.392,"end":3583.336,"text":"前面幾次都已經定過執行刑了請你看那個編號1349他本來被台中地院定為是三年六個月那編號2567的案件被台北地院定執行刑是一年兩個月最後受刑人又再申請一次把所有的案件一起定執行刑"},{"start":3601.952,"end":3618.985,"text":"三年六個月加一年兩個月本來是四年八個月然後這一次又少了兩個月那變成四年六個月所以這個案子是十一年四個月變成四年六個月部長你不覺得詐騙集團一直在利用司法資源利用司法對他們有利的地方"},{"start":3620.485,"end":3640.994,"text":"在一直犯罪一直申請這個定執行然後定完後因為還有其他案件他又把它加在一起再申請一定再一次一定再定刑度一段不斷的減少這就是我們耗費社會龐大的資源但卻得到這樣的結果難怪詐欺案件一直發生主謀抓不到這個車手抓不完部長這樣子你能接受嗎"},{"start":3646.476,"end":3652.958,"text":"我想這部分這部分的確是不合理不合理那我想這部分各案檢察官會勘告或訴訴那另外我覺得根本解決這部分我們要嚴厲來修法把他做一個比較合理的一個集據讓法官"},{"start":3663.422,"end":3668.827,"text":"在這個比較合理的話我們去做一個裁量我們會把委員這寶貴的一個建議我們會傳給檢討那好好的監督法院的再一個量刑他看準了小孩子 涉事衛生然後想賺快錢 這個是榮譽錢快錢然後又沉迷通訊軟體所以他用很輕鬆 日領 面膠"},{"start":3688.045,"end":3692.309,"text":"這種鬼化當打工 還變成暑期打工用六校園的網絡去做他們職業訓練場這個是成少共犯成年跟少年共犯結構現在變成這個少年嫌犯的主要的這個形態部長告訴我 我跟你講"},{"start":3704.258,"end":3726.064,"text":"很多人跟我說就是現在的生活環境包括這件事他們不敢生孩子也有這件事在裡面原因他說現在孩子除了要學習之外他也要去抵抗教他們如何抵抗這個外界的這個誘惑所以部長就是我的意思說除了宣導你一定要有更強硬的手段斷掉這些伸向校園伸向孩子的這個黑手因為如果任由法律"},{"start":3726.784,"end":3731.508,"text":"去處理這個這個他們會跟孩子說反正判很輕反正沒事最後會沒什麼事孩子們走向沉淪之路那台灣永遠擺脫不了詐欺亡國的這個名稱所以我覺得他們不只是犯罪他們在蠶食精吞台灣的下一代所以部長你可不可以承諾我就是說你對這個定職行刑的一個行動的檢討我是不是可以很快可以有看到你們這樣的一個"},{"start":3752.665,"end":3768.559,"text":"這部分委員報告我想第一我們會嚴厲修法讓法官在訂執行這部分不會像發生像那個委員所提到的那一種的現象這第一點第二點就是在個案還沒完成修法之前我要求檢控要監督法院的一個判決也就是說"},{"start":3769.239,"end":3784.627,"text":"如果定職刑這邊這個是不合理那我們就會看告後上訴來做一個處理那我想委員的聲音我們也會如實的來跟希望我們檢察官能夠再反映在我們在求刑的這部分求刑我們會具體求刑希望法官能夠具體求刑我們再依照我們具體求刑來判你今天說的東西我當時可以看得到"},{"start":3795.233,"end":3816.082,"text":"這個我想我們會把我們的做法我們再做一個書面報告給委員做一個不要太久好嗎就你們的方向等等好嗎我們儘快把我們的一個做法我們也都在學習啦因為我們希望法官能夠聽得到委員寶貴的聲音啦謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請林沛翔委員發言也歡迎林沛翔委員加入我們司法委員會"},{"start":3828.427,"end":3850.626,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長委員好鄭部長早安目前國人都很關心所謂的兄弟姊妹特留份制度那也是就是所謂的單身條款那本席也在今天的這個法務部的立法計畫第26條有看到這個案子"},{"start":3854.97,"end":3874.378,"text":"包括我在內有許多委員也已經針對兄弟姊妹特留份提出修法的版本希望替國人改善這個制度這個緣由是因為去年底的時候台灣遺囑協會在公共政策網路參與平台上面有提出相關的提案有獲得多達772位民眾的支持跟複議"},{"start":3878.4,"end":3901.951,"text":"那我們也知道說法務部有自己委外研究報告也已經指出現行制度確實有檢討修法的必要性而且有承諾在今年初來啟動修法程序所以我想這邊就請部長來回答第一點請問現在具體修法的進度到哪裡第二個版本出來了嗎法務部的版本出來了嗎"},{"start":3903.59,"end":3931.812,"text":"跟委員報告那的確是在委託研究案就是有關那個繼承篇的委託研究案在去年已經已經完成了那這部分有一些的建立的意見那本部在今年也邀集了學者專家相關的機關團體有召開研修小組就有關於這部分繼承篇的一個修正的這部分有第一次的研修的會的一個討論那我想這部分除了我們這個研修會還有把105年相關的草案的"},{"start":3932.432,"end":3933.935,"text":"能夠把它再做一個檢視"},{"start":3935.407,"end":3964.283,"text":"把這當作修法的一個重要參考那的確委員關心的特留份有關兄弟姊妹這部分的一個特留份的問題我想這是一個重點的一個重點那當然因為各界的意見還是很多我們還要再再做一個更精緻的一個一個一個討論那我想我們希望能夠在今年能夠提出跟立委提出我們會頭要送出法務部然後去年十月我在總質詢的時候提出來是部長也曾經上台喔在幫對我們是希望今年能夠"},{"start":3965.183,"end":3982.436,"text":"那其實應該檢討修正的是民法第1223條第4款然後讓國人能夠真正落實遺囑的自由跟財產自主老師說有一位先輩常常在講這句話叫時空背景不同"},{"start":3983.237,"end":4012.777,"text":"那這句話我覺得對於這一個我們的修法是的確有必要性的畢竟來講五十年前的中華民國跟現在的中華民國整個民情已經變得不一樣而當時不管是您本身還是卓院長都在院會裡面明確回應會與社會各界進行討論跟徵詢但是我也必須要這邊要提說其實社會上為什麼這麼多的共識因為這個事情可能已經慢慢你不能講慢慢而是已經很多人直接影響到他們自己"},{"start":4013.497,"end":4035.323,"text":"所謂的遺組自主跟其他方面的權益了所以說我今天社會討論重點其實很簡單部長我們現在立法院已經有多位委員提出版本那承諾2026初當初你是講2026初啟動修法程序如果有任何至愛難行的地方部長可以直接提出來啊"},{"start":4036.899,"end":4056.419,"text":"好 謝謝 那我想我們現在是啟動修法程序因為這個我們已經開研修小組的會議這就是一個修法程序的一個啟動那的確這個時空的以及家庭形態以及現在的一個背景那我們參佐外國例外像那個現在很多的專家學者一直在提供就是日本那個"},{"start":4057.58,"end":4079.957,"text":"貢獻份的這些的一個制度來取代特留份的這些就是你實際上有付出了多少才有辦法去做一個繼承那這個結合那個遺囑的一個自由的一個制度那我想這部分我們速度我們現在繳成是現在是有一直在加快那我們希望就像委員講的我們一定要廣大社會意見然後達到一個一個平衡"},{"start":4080.237,"end":4095.814,"text":"我也必須在這邊請教部長我希望今天是個理性的討論因為這個事情還蠻重要的那什麼時候保護部一機提出版本時間很重要我們不能一天到晚攜帶立法院全年無休都一天到晚等大家的法案但什麼時候提出版本"},{"start":4097.429,"end":4115.524,"text":"我會講說進化因為我們現在是當然那是因為繼承篇那個是修的弧度蠻大的如果說我們在擠的話我們是可以把那個特留份跟遺囑自由這部分有沒有機會在這個會期會期我們都努力好不好那個因為我們還要再送行政院來審查那我們會"},{"start":4117.535,"end":4134.566,"text":"還要再預告還要再會選所以我一旦失誠我們是盡快去就是說那我想隨時我們跟委員聯絡因為我知道委員很關心這個問題那我們會再跟委員來做一個聯繫讓你能夠掌握這個進度我期待如果法務部的國會聯絡組能夠跟我辦公室盡快獲得聯絡"},{"start":4137.427,"end":4162.776,"text":"剛好我剛看今天出席的人出席的各位官員裡面剛好我們政務次長是黃某興黃次長嘛謝謝黃次長其實我比較好奇的是另外一位政務次長黃士傑黃次長那聽說黃士傑黃次長最近已經被清點去參選桃園市市長那昨天聽說他就已經去開始公開跑行程在上班時間請問這件事部長您知道嗎"},{"start":4164.393,"end":4189.714,"text":"這部分我因為這個是要選市場這是一個報紙有這樣的一個報導有這樣的一個報導我先問一個關鍵問題是他有請假嗎公務時間出去跑行程他有請假嗎我想他有公務行程他就會出去這個是公務行程如果說你去幫桃園的農產品這邊去去參加桃園農產品的行程我有一點不能了解法務部跟桃園的農產品有什麼直接的關聯"},{"start":4190.675,"end":4208.902,"text":"那我想請問說他如果是這樣去跑地方的行程請問部長他有請假嗎這部分我想該請假就會請假那這部分我再來瞭解那第二件事如果說他是這樣子的去針對他未來的仕途去做更進一步的發展"},{"start":4209.608,"end":4225.168,"text":"那請問說以說專業性的考量來講或各方面功能性的考量來講部長他是不是需要先辭職然後才專心的跑行程才對得起我們整個法務部的系統呢"},{"start":4226.412,"end":4246.048,"text":"這部分我們防政務次長他這個有沒有去要參選的這個問題我這部分我還這是媒體的一個報導那我想如果說真的有去決定要去選我想他有他的一個做法因為到目前這都是媒體的一個報導"},{"start":4247.289,"end":4270.147,"text":"我們只是期待說我們都知道法務部都是目前都是很辛苦的因為有很多案子尤其現在這幾年來我們中華民國整個社會上的價值觀整個社會上的觀感其實都一直在變變的時候其實很尷尬就法務部這邊一方面又要讓大家安心一方面又要想辦法說讓這個公務體系能夠正常那這時候每一位"},{"start":4270.908,"end":4283.761,"text":"官員首長的職權都很重要那如果剛好有人有外務然後來去干擾他們本身法務部的好好運行尤其又是到長字輩那我會認為說部長您應該好好考慮說這一個狀況到底這樣適不適合"},{"start":4286.763,"end":4314.802,"text":"再來我們時間有限我想繼續詢問有關這方面其他打炸的事情因為老實講我們聽到國家隊我們都很興奮只有聽到打炸國家隊我們有點頭痛因為老實說打炸其實我們都知道國安危機至少兩大國安危機經濟危機跟少子化危機但是老實講對民眾感觸最深惡痛絕的就是打炸老實講"},{"start":4316.603,"end":4337.156,"text":"去年1月開始實施打詐綱領2.0版本以及打詐新釋法那我想說目的應該是讓民眾有感所以說我想請問部長從去年1月打詐綱領2.0版本上路之後到現在為止台灣民眾遭受詐騙的財損總金額是多少能不能給我一個大約的數字"},{"start":4338.683,"end":4349.666,"text":"那第二個也是說台灣民眾在從去年1月打詐綱領2.0版本上路之後台灣民眾遭詐騙的受理案件總數是多少能不能給我一個數字"},{"start":4353.896,"end":4380.457,"text":"財損總金額在這部分我這邊是有查過的步伐的一個立得的一個資料那當然因為打炸儀表板都有就公佈數據這個是內政部主管的嘛那但是我可以看出我們那個財損的金額事實上整個一個建樹也下降財損金額也只一年從今年二月往回說這一年內跟去年二月比較我們是財損金額也是下降23%"},{"start":4381.378,"end":4399.578,"text":"對不起我要問的是數字不是下降多少數字數字的話我有單列有那今年1月是財損的金額是70億從去年到今年1月我是說這一整年我們財損的數字是多少"},{"start":4399.938,"end":4409.464,"text":"我這邊我再提供給委員但是這是有下降的趨勢我跟部長報告一下去年1月是95億今年1月是70億部長我這邊得到的資料是914億的財損總金額從去年1月到今年1月財損總計的914億相當於什麼相當於我們全國5000大企業中前面的80家到100家"},{"start":4427.756,"end":4441.203,"text":"如果以零售業來講相當於整年的新光三越跟家樂福的營售總額部長您覺得這個數字是高還是低啊當然這個數字還是高但是有下降的反轉的趨勢第二個就是說受理案件的總數"},{"start":4443.884,"end":4456.351,"text":"我們這邊目前辦公室查到是185215這是受理的案件總數沒有受理的可能還不止這個數字所以說這就是回到為什麼我剛剛說民眾覺得打詐"},{"start":4459.213,"end":4476.793,"text":"其實有點像是國安危機因為深惡痛絕感同身受政府一說政策有效但是人民真的有感嗎打炸綱領2.0版本就是希望讓民眾有感但是這個數字跟這感覺出來的時候部長這有點心酸啊"},{"start":4477.972,"end":4499.977,"text":"額 各位辦公室的確齁 打詐啊 我們在一直不予你一利啦齁那我想我們整個辦案團隊以及政府其他的一個機關齁我們都是有跨域的一個整合 一個公司的協力齁其實齁 在去年的話已經從高峰已經下來了 從到112年22萬件到我時間已經快沒了 不過我想請問部長這一個事我覺得這件事講出來 民眾一定很有感那就是說"},{"start":4502.782,"end":4513.807,"text":"在打仗剛剛領2.0版本上路之後到目前為止民眾被詐騙的金額裡面實質成功追回來的金額比例是多少"},{"start":4515.464,"end":4538.693,"text":"追回來的金額比例不是追回來的金額是追回來的金額比例假設說我被騙了一千塊我被追回來八十塊七十塊那百分之七百分之八好像不太對勁但是如果我被騙了一千塊但是被追回來八百五十塊那我就覺得說這政府有感那請問金額比例是多少"},{"start":4541.481,"end":4557.14,"text":"因為這個是現在詐欺的詐騙就是屬於跨國型的有些就直接就傳出去了這個很難追回那我想到這個比例我沒辦法去做一個明確的一個數據但是我們可以說追回來的一個總額我倒是可以提供給委員"},{"start":4558.243,"end":4576.321,"text":"因為這個是跨國型的一個詐騙而且只有洗錢就洗到境外了所以而且現在虛擬的一個貨幣的一個方式這就是為什麼人民對於當然我們在努力人民對於打仗很沒有信心的感覺因為如果說我們聽到的不是直接一個數字"},{"start":4577.862,"end":4584.627,"text":"而是一直說這個錢可能轉到國外去 這個錢可能到別的地方去 這個錢可能到那邊 到那邊您眾會覺得是說 我們的政府在推脫我們這個沒有推脫 這個我們是很努力在去 如果說推脫的話 大家現在都在錄影那我也是身為一個理性討論的情況 我沒有說您推脫"},{"start":4600.78,"end":4628.482,"text":"但是民眾的直接感覺很有可能會覺得說第一時間你跟我講的不是追回來的比例多少而是說這個錢會到哪裡去難免民眾會覺得說不對勁那我也不 我現在時間其實已經到了那我也在這邊要請求部長甚至要求部長是否能夠在未來的打擊詐騙的政策裡面把提高追回金額比例當成政策目標"},{"start":4630.563,"end":4656.122,"text":"可以這樣做嗎提高追回金額比例這個事情如果做得到打詐才人民有感啊跟委員報告其實打詐其實我們對要求就是在偵查審理中的時候因為被害人倒查嘛我們就會是要求那個被告一定要跟那個被害人做一個我家人昨天才被詐騙"},{"start":4658.459,"end":4678.134,"text":"所以說如果連國會而且我一直跟我家人講說什麼事都不要點我家人昨天才被詐騙差一點點差一點點最後面那個驗證碼不出去不然就完蛋了所以像這樣事情發生在你我身邊那我如果說已經發生了麻煩一下打詐要有感"},{"start":4679.056,"end":4698.727,"text":"把錢追回來讓民眾覺得說至少有政府好安心這句話是不是真的這部分跟委員不好我們再努力啦好那剛才我再補充一下剛才委員關心就是我們房屋市檢政部次長有沒有請假問題那我們查的結果就上週都已經事前完成請假手續了就以上的一個補充好謝謝委員"},{"start":4701.485,"end":4711.971,"text":"謝謝沛翔委員的提醒那我可能這邊也請法務部之後可以把就是你們追回來的詐騙金額的比例數字再提供給我們司法委員會參考好嗎"},{"start":4715.751,"end":4736.084,"text":"對就是因為總是應該有比例吧大概總共詐騙金額多少然後實際上追回的詐騙金額然後在就近五年吧近五年我想應該還是會有一些統計數據那就麻煩在你們來就來給我們一份資料好謝謝謝謝鄭部長好那麼接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好謝謝"},{"start":4745.09,"end":4769.835,"text":"謝謝我們主席 翁昭瑋我這邊先請教我們法務部長謝謝鄭部長部長今天本席這邊 早安幾個大概三項議題跟您做一個請教跟討論那麼第一個部分是關於司法公信力的問題那我們從一個個案看到這邊可能我想要了解一下我們整體的一個狀況"},{"start":4772.075,"end":4793.54,"text":"我這邊的個案是有一位私信的民眾在1008年判刑確定刑期是三年十個月但是判決確定之後五年間沒有執行到了113年才收到執行通知這個當事人在這五年當中也多次主動向法院跟地檢署來詢問執行的進度但是檢查機關沒有動作"},{"start":4797.981,"end":4808.485,"text":"那麼監察院在今年一月也做了一些調查然後它整個調查其實提到的不是一個人的疏忽而已啦而是從分案執行到歸檔那每一個環節都有一些問題包括書記官沒有分案"},{"start":4814.427,"end":4827.173,"text":"執行單位沒有啟動程序那麼股長跟檢察官在歸檔的時候也沒有注意到結果整個流程有點整體失靈所以這邊我想跟部長請教那麼這一件事已經確定了一個刑事判決那怎麼會五年沒有執行那當然監察院有一些調查那麼第二個部分是"},{"start":4835.757,"end":4861.766,"text":"其實也有反映到這個監察院調查的一些結果也就是說地檢署的案量極為龐大那如果這只是被發現的一件有沒有其他還沒有被發現的可能案件呢第三個部分是我們有沒有可能透過這樣一個個案來檢討一下我們內控的機制那未來是不是在內控上在分案的一個複合還有執行的一個追蹤還有歸檔前是不是要再次來確認"},{"start":4864.147,"end":4883.846,"text":"那避免當中有被遺漏的那您對這件事情的看法是如何謝謝委員這個的確施行授信人的確這部分的執行就是有延返到了但是還沒有預約那個行刑權的一個時效所以現在我已經也發現"},{"start":4885.868,"end":4913.114,"text":"也薄掉了那這部分也入監執行在113113年7月10日也入監執行那剛才提到這個有一個疏失的一個問題那這部分那個台中地檢他有評定他有資料科的書記官跟執行科的書記官這邊當然也反映在他的考期上是考期是一等那當然委員關心說是不是有其他的情形那我們也是很注意"},{"start":4914.054,"end":4931.287,"text":"那是不是你們趕快再做一個檢視那如果說有這樣子因為看起來不是一個個案啦有一些整個系統上所以其實那個台中地檢它有強化複數被告案件分擔及歸檔的流程類為教育訓練的一個課程"},{"start":4933.248,"end":4950.86,"text":"那我想這也是一直要跟人家提醒這是一個管考督考的一個問題我們也是不希望有這樣的的此類的看起來是蠻特殊的就正好在每一個環節都有一些疏漏那另外我們也會本部也會強化跟司法院的系統來做一個交換這是屬於"},{"start":4952.481,"end":4978.342,"text":"是系統性的一個交換的一個機制所以它有這樣一個系統的互相勾擊嘛 等我確定了過來的話我們不會去漏掉因為有時候還是不管怎麼樣還是要人工所以本席這邊也提醒就是說這樣一個個案然後我們也發現這個系統可能有一些在需要做一個整理跟檢討那再來是相互的單位之間是不是要互相的一個勾擊"},{"start":4980.003,"end":4982.867,"text":"那所以但是很重要這一點其實也反映一個問題啦還是本席長期在關心的那個基層的檢查體系啦長期都高壓過勞所以我們從個案裡面其實會看到很多個向度的一個問題跟狀況"},{"start":4997.106,"end":5010.435,"text":"所以雖然這件案在台中的地檢但是我們看一下它的案量那整個108年度處理的案件38000多件然後關乎的案件有7544件那總共46397件那我們用一個平均來算每天181件"},{"start":5017.68,"end":5032.807,"text":"那麼人力跟時效的一個限制因為這件事情還關係到一些時效那結果在復合或覺醒上呢就沒有及時的做一個處理那事實上執行課的這個負擔也是很沉重那麼成辦的書記官也都每一年都達到兩千多件"},{"start":5034.568,"end":5061.564,"text":"那每一個執行的檢察官也差不多到每一年要八千到一萬件那平均我們講幾多啦台中、新北、桃園那這幾年來近六年平均每天都在兩百到三百件當中那基層人員其實也有反應那本席也長期關注那人力跟案件量其實蠻失衡的所以其實這個部分不僅是每一個環節那整個失衡的狀況可能也必須要再做一個整體的討論跟檢討"},{"start":5064.406,"end":5080.496,"text":"那麼這本席已經關心很久了所以這整個具體的人力的補充或減壓的方案或者是書記官在跟地檢署的這個基層的負擔你們現在有沒有一個更積極或者是可能看到預期的一個方案做一個應對呢"},{"start":5082.417,"end":5098.088,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個問題我想我們事件會很感動會很感動那的確增補人力我們一直在努力但是因為受限於那個整個一個天花板的一個限制事實上我們我們還是在這個這個我們還是在努力那另外這個的確"},{"start":5100.349,"end":5118.103,"text":"這個案管系統就是案件管理的一個系統這邊我們優化的確我們希望能夠更有效率更有效率來簡化行政的一個流程那事實上不要暗讀勞行檢察官也是一樣所以本席關心的就是這些基層人員的問題我想全國大概人力都很缺但是"},{"start":5119.023,"end":5141.453,"text":"因為在人力短缺的情況我們就是從暗管系統的優化、簡化流程還有推動AI的輔助系統那其實AI的輔助系統可以幫我們節省很多我知道AI可以節省很多事不過我們要學AI跟理解AI或者是讓AI能夠真的去做到對我們比較有效度的一個功能其實也需要一點時間那另外設備也要做剔除"},{"start":5142.433,"end":5158.368,"text":"另外最近我們幫書記官爭取就是很謝謝任總跟那個主計總署的支持那行政院在在今年你們現在的因應作為是不是也可以給本席一個書面的報告那個紀錄會從四千七提高到"},{"start":5159.828,"end":5181.514,"text":"607年 這也非常謝謝行政院的大力的一個支持那看起來你們這邊可能有一些進展那相關的進展報告是不是可以給本席那這邊我們再做一個 其實我們非常注意其實我們都有召開一些的定期的一些研商會議就是能夠合理化書記官的工作的一個負擔那我想我們就書面報告給委員本席這邊就是為基層 書記官還有相關的這個基層做一個請命那也很長期的"},{"start":5186.335,"end":5190.497,"text":"有身心障礙的受刑人在進入監獄的時候的狀況有沒有妥善的被處於的狀況"},{"start":5206.523,"end":5227.464,"text":"有一些個案就是在收容人入監之前因為交通事故就受傷了那入監後可能沒有及時在醫護上的一個處理結果就惡化了那另外還有一些不同的障礙像聽力障礙結果變成執行官也沒有及時發現然後在資訊上可能沒有及時的一個通報這些都是比較一些及時性可能發現的突發風險"},{"start":5229.506,"end":5255.458,"text":"那所以這就導致了在收容前後的一個醫療跟身心狀況通報機制的一個不足所以在醫療評估還有停止執行的一個判斷上是不是有後續的一個矯正的一個照顧那本席認為在這整個制度面有三點本席認為是段點的提供給你們參考就是說第一個段點是說什麼時候停止執行是否要停止執行這個標準是不是可以更明確化"},{"start":5256.178,"end":5259.399,"text":"那第二個段點是醫療專業有沒有進入到這樣一個步驟的決策核心那第三個部分是矯正機關的這個醫療處遇從收到了健康檢查到後續的醫療處置還有個別處遇計畫之間的一個聯動那這個整個實質的健康問題會被忽視所以這整個既然我們收容了那很多東西我們就必須要負責"},{"start":5280.726,"end":5291.93,"text":"那這整體的一個狀況因為有一些突發那有一些通報的即時性還有處遇 就是在處遇上或面對的一個即時狀況那這個部分是不是 蔣聖淑要不要簡單的回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":5296.773,"end":5322.372,"text":"委員好跟委員報告關於國家信訪權跟醫療人權之間的話的層層皆知的話我們是很看重的因為那醫療本席這邊提到的是我可以針對第一線人員還有醫療的這個專業跟這個矯正的機關當然本席提到的那三點那你們目前有沒有發現這樣子的問題那有如果有對應錯事你就簡單給本席一個回應那如果還沒有當然你們打算怎麼做這樣"},{"start":5322.952,"end":5346.287,"text":"各位委員報告這個是我們一向都很重視的問題每個個案的話它的輕重環節我們都會去跟他判斷的從他從地檢署報告開始一直到我們新收一直到入境執行當中我們都會依個案的情形來跟他做判斷想請教一下那怎麼樣停止執行的這個標準是怎樣他主要是有兩個點譬如說他沒有辦法自己生活他沒有辦法自己生活那一定沒有辦法自己執行那怎麼去判定他有沒有辦法自己生活"},{"start":5346.787,"end":5369.175,"text":"我們是他先提供他的也病歷的一個資料我們先看然後再來的話就實際上他目前的醫療狀況醫生簡單講這個是應該會後要私下再探討一下就是說假設這個人他可能沒有人可以去幫他處理病歷的問題那他已經也失去了某一些生活的狀況那你如何就是第一線人員如何去決定他是不是停止去執行"},{"start":5370.055,"end":5383.472,"text":"我講的是那種個案的一個可能性我們還有十天的猶豫期就是說新收進來之後我們會放在併設我們十天的猶豫期來看到他真正的一個生活的治理狀況是怎麼樣如果在十天之內看出他真的沒有辦法自己滲透的話我們就會拒絕收監"},{"start":5384.518,"end":5402.667,"text":"所以本席這邊提到的是說一個即時性在這裡面就產生一些問題是不是你可以針對本席剛才講的三個斷點第一線人員的一個是否停止執行那第二個部分的一個醫療專業人員是不是可以進入核心去做這樣一個決策的建議第三個部分是那矯正機關"},{"start":5403.787,"end":5418.538,"text":"那如何在本席剛才所講的那個檢查跟醫療的處置還有處遇之間的這個狀況給本席一個回應就是書面的更詳細一點針對這三點好不好好 那我們就要書面給那個委員更詳細的資料好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5420.399,"end":5434.226,"text":"那最後一點本席這邊今天這個部分是針對我想新北的這個戈井案是大家都很關注的那所以我想請教一下我們針對犯罪被害人的權益保障法第27條制度設計的這個問題"},{"start":5438.328,"end":5457.645,"text":"那麼其實在這一條的第一項就明確的規定被害人及其家屬得就受刑人假釋審查來陳述意見但是第三項排除了少年行刑事件的適用那麼所以就說加害人只要未成年那麼被害人跟他家屬在假釋過程當中沒有辦法來表達意見那這一次的新北戈井案當中"},{"start":5464.051,"end":5487.865,"text":"家屬很沉痛的這樣一個狀況就是加害人未成年結果呢他們的陳述就被排除在外那他們沒有辦法知道加害人什麼時候會出獄所以也不知道他被矯正的情況那更遑論這個家庭他們所擔心的有可能發生的任何的一些安全上的疑慮"},{"start":5489.546,"end":5515.956,"text":"更遑論他們能夠做一些準備那這個資訊落差對被害人而言其實在他的整個生活安全跟心理的安定上有很大的衝擊那所以你們是不是認為法務部是不是認為在現行27條第三項來排除少年刑事案件是不是合理那有沒有一些檢討跟修正的可能那第二個部分是在不違反少年保護原則的前提下"},{"start":5517.116,"end":5534.626,"text":"本席認為應該建立一套有限的知情與陳述的機制讓被害人至少能夠掌握假釋的重要資訊然後適度的表達意見第三個部分是針對被害人在整個少年刑事程序當中長期處於資訊不對等的問題"},{"start":5538.368,"end":5566.482,"text":"那麼法務部是不是從制度面有一些補強的措施比如說要求相關機關對被害人的意見要具體的回應然後來提升他程序參與的一個實質的意義那這幾點是不是我們針對這一個議題或者這一個條文那法務部我們在這樣一個個案發生而且各界非常關注的情況下那要不要針對這個法條有一些思考跟"},{"start":5567.823,"end":5585.88,"text":"修正呢跟委員報告剛才委員關心那個《環保法》二十七條排除少年是第三項嘛那事實上這是一二年修法的時候是司法院的建議啦他也尊重他的因為少年事件處理法是司法院主管的一個法規"},{"start":5586.741,"end":5613.576,"text":"他在我們的犯保法這部分他已經說少年的這部分的案件案件這邊也排除我們第一項的一個適用這是四環的建立那這一次那個少女事件處理法這部分也要做一個通盤的一個檢討那這邊我們也會來檢視說這一條是不是要做一個修改我們再來檢視那另外那個一個的確像那個少年的一個"},{"start":5615.037,"end":5642.809,"text":"一個被害假釋前 其實會做被害人意見的陳述的調查 譬如說我們那個假釋的實施的一個辦法我們都會問 都會去參考 去審查的資料是有包括被害人的一個陳述跟被害人遺屬的陳述他的意見我們會很尊重他的意見所以這部分請委員放心 這部分我們目前都要做 都是這樣子"},{"start":5643.049,"end":5659.718,"text":"是被害人被告之後在資訊的掌握度上目前他們一律就這樣子他沒有辦法去確認在假釋的這個資訊內容上這一部分我們什麼時候的話我們是不是請那個林署長來做一個補充這個假釋的一個審查資訊不對等的這一部分"},{"start":5662.472,"end":5682.059,"text":"跟委員報告只要他進來執行我們問到被害人被害人的話他願意來參加我們的假釋的一個意見的提供我們都會尊重但是有些被害人不願意是意見的提供可是他對於假釋的整個狀況就是加害人假釋的狀況他們有機會了解跟做一些因應嗎在實務上的話這個"},{"start":5685.06,"end":5692.482,"text":"這個比例並不高因為被害人都不太願意再進入這個區域但是家屬這個部分可能有一些心理的擔憂我們都知道實際的一個狀況我們當然期待加害者能夠在這個過程當中可能有一些更正面的被社會來接受"},{"start":5708.687,"end":5715.954,"text":"但是被害人你很難想像他過去可能家屬被害了那他現在對於資訊沒有辦法掌握那他心裡的這個陰影我想都是會存在所以應該這個不僅資訊不對等他們沒有辦法去做一些他們所謂的安全的防護我想這個是一個蠻大的問題"},{"start":5726.203,"end":5750.016,"text":"跟委員報告做一個補充事實上我們飯堡法我們各個飯堡的分會都是會去做一個協助會做一個協助那像那個戈井案的這部分我們也都是有一直在持續有專人去做一個輔導謝謝這個部長這邊因為這是社會關注的一個案件但是我想整體大家都會有我想這個也不是這個一個個案而已"},{"start":5750.396,"end":5778.556,"text":"所以本席這邊談的這個部分是不是也請你們做一個參考那不是只有這個個案未來我想我們都是通案式的一個處理我想這個被害人我們都覺得他們無辜受害我們真的是覺得非常的要給他對所以在一些實質的執行上實質的幫助這部分我們都有在做而且我們做的我們在像像1219他等等我們都是第一時間就趕過去像這一種新北市這樣我們非常的痛心"},{"start":5779.076,"end":5793.46,"text":"我想被害人他受到這麼的一個創傷所以在通案的處理上是不是法務部這邊可以更積極的來做一個處理如果委員有什麼問題這個時候我們做一個書面給委員幫我們做一些的一個機制讓委員更加了解支持好的 好好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":5810.16,"end":5811.941,"text":"接下來我們請翁召惠好 謝謝主席那麼在這邊有請鄭部長我們請鄭部長召喚召"},{"start":5834.113,"end":5848.567,"text":"是 部長好 我想昨天晚上其實有一個蠻駭人聽聞的新聞就是在台中地方法院有一位已經有多次犯刑的"},{"start":5849.748,"end":5856.793,"text":"這樣的一位這個毆打律師的女性她又再一次的毆打了台中律師公會的理事長狠狠甩了這個理事長的一個耳光我昨天其實在晚上的時候我就有看到那個影片"},{"start":5865.08,"end":5877.827,"text":"非常的這個震驚在法院在法庭前面而且法警就在旁邊竟然然後可以縱容像這樣的一個加害人就一個這樣的行為人已經屢次犯刑然後都去毆打律師去恐嚇律師所以呢在這樣的一個情況之下當時當然就是現在這個律師公會基本上也發了聲明而且也對於就是說法警有在"},{"start":5892.734,"end":5916.8,"text":"旁邊可是呢卻沒有依照現行犯逮捕那麼證為說法院的這個措施他的做法不夠積極他們感到非常遺憾那當然就是本席在這裡也曉得有關於法院的管理不是法務部的事情這是屬於司法院的事情但是呢在這個事情上面我覺得他反映他一再的"},{"start":5918.25,"end":5938.299,"text":"凸顯了一個重要的問題就是律師的人身安全是不是應該要受到更積極的保護我們知道其實律師被毆打被暴力傷害已經不是第一個案例了那麼在這些年裡面其實我們常常都會看到有好些這個律師被毆打被"},{"start":5941.06,"end":5962.633,"text":"傷害甚至被撞死被縱火燒死這個案例像2024年就以最近幾年來來講就是台中當時就三名女律師是接連遭受攻擊就是被這次毆打這個台中律師公會的理事長的這名女性她這個連續被攻擊然後在2021年應該在更早2017年的時候"},{"start":5969.761,"end":5974.842,"text":"在台南地方法院外不是有一名律師也是被他的對照當事人開車撞死"},{"start":5976.392,"end":6004.171,"text":"還有呢還有一個是這個屏東的一個律師這是比較近期的在2024年一個屏東律師他在受委任去處理房屋點焦的時候在現場竟然也是被對照的當事人預謀縱火最後呢他不幸這個被燒死身亡所以類似這種案子其實屢見不邪那過去律師公會也一直希望能夠去修法在律師法裡面能夠加強就是對於"},{"start":6006.294,"end":6022.123,"text":"防害律師職務和攻擊傷害律師的行為予以法律制裁但是本席有看到就是法務部好像對於這個部分始終沒有積極的提出修法建議有嗎你們在律師法裡面你們有提案修法嗎"},{"start":6027.436,"end":6049.625,"text":"首先我要譴責這個對律師的不法的一個攻擊那這個是因為是在野好滑槽他也的確是在執行他的一個職務那這被攻擊那這個我們對這個個案我們會速查嚴辦如果涉及到刑惡會速查嚴辦那我們在一個後續作為我們會回來檢視這因為發生在法院的那一部分嘛"},{"start":6050.145,"end":6069.134,"text":"那我們檢察機關這邊我會注意到偵查庭的安全尤其是律師跟參與程序的這些的所有包括證人尤其證人會被追打或是被攻擊或者雙方會互相的攻擊這個都會有這樣的案例那我想剛才委員有關心到就"},{"start":6069.574,"end":6075.957,"text":"有關於律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修律師修�"},{"start":6099.107,"end":6116.296,"text":"那很遺憾的本席在這次的看到法務部的立法計畫當中雖然說有要提出律師法的條文修正但是跟要保護律師的人身安全要處罰對於律師造成是個人身傷害或是有些攻擊妨礙職務的行為的這樣的一個情況並沒有提"},{"start":6121.338,"end":6142.454,"text":"按修法要予以制裁所以本席希望法務部這個部分能夠盡速的提出相關的這個條文那本席在這邊也會積極的提出相關的修法案我覺得就是說保護律師保護我們戰野法槽讓他們能夠安心的去執行職務這個事情是非常重要的這也是跟我們的司法秩序有關"},{"start":6143.635,"end":6152.605,"text":"那麼接下來呢 本席要提這個問題其實剛剛藉機委員一開始就已經提到了就是既然我們的這個我們的這個"},{"start":6158.863,"end":6173.219,"text":"檢察官在這個執行犯人的這個執行刑罰裡面竟然忘記忘記了說是還有一個受刑人他沒有被執行"},{"start":6176.26,"end":6200.669,"text":"而且更離譜的是說這個案子並不是檢察官這邊自己發現的而是因為這個當事人他要出境結婚被攔下來了然後結果反覆的詢問才被查出來所以如果說這個當事人他一輩子都不出國那是不是過了30年之後這個受刑人他的刑期就會永遠消失那本席認為說這個問題其實是很嚴重的"},{"start":6207.813,"end":6231.412,"text":"跟委員報告這一件因為最主要是卷太多了的確是有發生到有時候若把這事情受刑的分案來執行的確是有疏失那首先還好是因為他行刑時效還蠻長的所以他這部分沒有理以時效那這裡發現執行那的確我們這有做檢討那剛才我在林委員在"},{"start":6232.874,"end":6246.071,"text":"我想這部分避免在此列發生我想我們會在做管考以及在宣導教育訓練這部分我們會再做一個加強就是當然啦 本席這邊有幾個建議"},{"start":6249.595,"end":6272.288,"text":"包含就是說你們是不是未來要建立系統化的追蹤因為現在已經進入到數位化然後資訊化的這個時代很多的這種發現執行它的這個程序然後甚至就是未來應該要不要在刑事訴訟法裡面也應該要明定執行指揮書的簽發期限避免再度出現有被遺忘了五年"},{"start":6273.208,"end":6300.107,"text":"然後的這種判決都還沒有去執行那麼我覺得就是人力不足固然是一個主因可是也不能說因為人力不足所以我們就認為說像這樣的一個情況是情有可原反正這個受刑人他最後也是知道了這個五年之後他還是被攔截到了然後又抓回去服刑可是我們不知道其實還有多少的案件"},{"start":6300.948,"end":6318.979,"text":"是判決確定了但是沒有執行所以我希望就是法務部這邊應該要進行全面的清查那麼同時對於失職的人員也應該要進行懲處那本身有看到就是說你們的懲處基本上只有最後的這個懲辦的書記官他的懲處是考積列一等只有處罰這個書記官那股長已經退休了"},{"start":6330.092,"end":6355.512,"text":"當時的執行檢察官也辭職了轉任律師結果其他的人都沒有事這個基本上我覺得社會大眾是不能接受的這種明顯的這個失職的情況竟然沒有辦法在他的層層的這個環節考核的這些人員還有失職可是卻沒有辦法處罰本心是建議喔"},{"start":6357.474,"end":6381.569,"text":"法務部應該要訂定出相關的這個懲處的程序不應該說這個因為什麼退休啦然後轉任啦然後所以他們的過去的失職的情況這個追究就一筆勾銷應該要再研議好嗎這部我們再來研議我們回去再去一個檢討"},{"start":6383.796,"end":6394.206,"text":"這個案子是監察院有特別提出來的所以本席認為說這個問題也是很嚴重這邊我就不再繼續再討論這個議題剛剛慶祺委員那邊您也回答了很多了好那接下來我想要再談到另外一個議題就是因為部長您在最近3月11號檢察官首長的交接典禮上面有公開的要求檢察官要超前部署年底的九合一"},{"start":6411.584,"end":6433.175,"text":"選舉查案而且甚至特別強調國安的案件偵辦不能夠再以傳統的形式思維來去處理那麼當然這段話就引起了高度的關注主要大家就會想要了解知道部長您這裡所謂的非傳統思維的具體法律定義是什麼"},{"start":6435.574,"end":6450.368,"text":"因為現在整個境外敵對勢力就用假訊息的去做一個借選那我想這部分我們不能夠是姑息一定要去正視因為我們認為選舉最重要就是公平公正"},{"start":6451.158,"end":6472.891,"text":"能夠在一個平和的狀態去選舉那我想每個參選人、候選人都希望沒有任何的其他的包括金錢、暴力、假訊息的這些的一個介入影響選舉的一個公正所以我們這部分以前都沒有注意到國安那從上一次的選舉就開始發現都假訊息充斥在尤其現在AI的"},{"start":6473.351,"end":6494.672,"text":"AI的世界有AI的一些的生成的所以我們現在行法也有修法也有修法就是有些的AI生成的這些的這些必須法律都有這個依據所以我們要去更重視我想我們是法律人本身在這裡很強調所謂的非傳統的法律思維到底它具體的法律定義是什麼"},{"start":6495.333,"end":6510.691,"text":"本期擔心的是說你這邊是不是按指或是有意的去做指導就是希望未來檢察官在辦案的時候呢相當程度的可以就原本要求的嚴格的證據法則"},{"start":6512.913,"end":6532.407,"text":"然後可以放寬可以放鬆我希望就是說所有的檢察官就是未來的相關司法人員在辦案的時候應該還是要回到那個嚴謹的證據法則畢竟檢察官辦案必須要倫理跟證據並重所以呢你這裡的所謂的強調的非傳統思維的確是會讓人感到"},{"start":6539.38,"end":6547.008,"text":"這個會混淆不知道說您指的意思是什麼不過今天我們現在講的就是說是您是希望說在九合一選舉的查查的部分能夠更加嚴謹當然這裡也會要提醒部長因為我們知道其實過去大家一直都會質疑司法特別是在選前就開始"},{"start":6559.441,"end":6568.034,"text":"大範圍的動作那這可能會引起很多民眾認為說是不是司法在借血那麼尤其是過去的幾次選舉常常看到"},{"start":6576.326,"end":6605.065,"text":"檢方在選舉前期大規模的約談基層的里長參選人可是之後呢其實又常常又多以不起訴處分甚至到了法院的判決還有判決就是無罪的這個情況所以像這樣子的一個選前大動作的偵辦選舉之後卻查無實據的模式其實已經嚴重的傷害了司法的公信力那麼本席在這裡要請教就是說法務部為了要如何確保"},{"start":6605.725,"end":6630.234,"text":"超前部署而不是針對不會是針對性的打壓就超前部署他不是針對性的打壓你們要怎麼去做這件事情跟委員報告這個超前部署因為選舉的有一定的一個期程那因為法務部要督導因為最高檢察是一個督導的一個小組我們是選舉查查要去我們是查查"},{"start":6630.899,"end":6647.121,"text":"那查查不能夠等到選舉已經明天要投票現在才去查查因為我們一個台灣的民主政治是得來不易那台灣的民主政治是透過選舉一票一票去投出來的所以"},{"start":6647.801,"end":6659.847,"text":"這個一個選舉的一個公平公正跟純潔度我們必須要做一個確保所以我們一定要超前步就是說我們現在要我要提醒檢察官在期前策略費用你一個期檢報告選舉還要公報出來公告之前"},{"start":6663.249,"end":6672.038,"text":"我們就要開始部署了我想這個是在座提醒立切的選舉我們都是要做提前的部署因為有些是送錢的基本上也支持部長您的看法您的這個查辦的這個方向但是本席還是希望法務部能夠制定明確的標準針對什麼叫做借血對於這個借血案件的發動你們應該要建立更"},{"start":6686.693,"end":6690.315,"text":"發動門檻還有審核機制尤其是另外就是說選後也要去檢討特別是你選前大眾做的偵辦但是選後都不起訴或是被判決無罪這個未來是不是要列入檢察長以及檢察官的年度考核否則的話就檢察官反正聽從上億然後隨便的辦案那到了這個"},{"start":6709.045,"end":6733.1,"text":"之後可能又最後又不起訴或者是說又被判最後法院可能被法院可能判無罪這個基本上我覺得都已經嚴重的影響到司法的公信力那本行希望說你們能夠訂定更嚴格的標準好那最後本行還有一個很一個也是跟時事題有關的我們知道其實呢在你們今天的報告裡面有談到兩岸司法互助的問題要共同有兩岸共打擊司法互助"},{"start":6737.423,"end":6742.867,"text":"那其實這兩年來我們知道你們這個兩岸司法互助的這個案件非常的少你們現在書面報告上面都是寫說從簽訂協議之後到最近然後有總共有多少案件但是實際上從蔡英文政府民進黨政府執政之後兩岸的司法互助的共打的這個機制基本上已經是沒有什麼很積極的在運作然後互助的案件也非常的少那麼在這個去年年底的時候呢"},{"start":6767.182,"end":6789.805,"text":"就曾經有發生過一個案件就是大陸那裡突然就遣返了13名的通緝犯跟刑滿人員而我們這裡台灣方好像完全不知道這件事情所以本席想要問的就是說你們在這次報告裡面有提出有指出調查局有請求協助棄捕遣返僅六案"},{"start":6790.485,"end":6804.294,"text":"這個六案當中有沒有包括去年12月大陸一次就突襲遣返了13名的通緝犯跟刑滿人員有包括這13個人嗎這部分我請國務院司司長待會回答"},{"start":6806.276,"end":6834.705,"text":"跟委員說明就說兩岸的這個司法互助其實並沒有中斷仍然繼續進行然後我們每年都有這樣的一個統計數據所以就是說以今年來講我們現在數據仍然有相當多件就依照不同的項目比如說像這個通緝犯的遣返或者是情資交換文書送達你想回答我就是說是去年年底大陸遣返回來的這13個人當中有包含你們當時請求互助的這個案子裡面嗎"},{"start":6835.885,"end":6865.408,"text":"有包括你們在所請求的六案的這個名單之內嗎是就有關這個向大陸請求棄捕遣返這個部分的實際上哪一些人要對大陸請求棄捕遣返這個部分是屬於刑事局在處理那他給我們的這一些人裡面是屬於我們通緝犯的我們回到台灣來我們就會依照相關的規定來處理所以有關這裡面有沒有是屬於我們特別對大陸請求大陸棄捕遣返的這個部分可能是屬於刑事局的這個"},{"start":6866.008,"end":6884.138,"text":"本席要講的就是說因為這種突襲式的遣返其實對於邊境的安全會造成很大的衝擊尤其是路方在金門水頭碼頭進行丟包式的遣返由公安押解上傳結果現場的旅客就"},{"start":6885.75,"end":6908.597,"text":"就是非常的驚訝怎麼會有這樣的一個遣返的這個看起來遣返的這個犯人然後跟他們一般旅客是混雜在一起這可能會造成國安和防疫的漏洞那麼當然陸委會說現在沒辦法我們只能務實接收可是我很希望就是我們的法務部跟調查局這裡未來能夠在跟對岸的司法互助裡面能夠"},{"start":6910.457,"end":6933.052,"text":"更積極 而且希望對方有些什麼動作我們這裡要知道 要知情不能說我們完全對於他們什麼時候要遣返遣返多少人 一無所知而且更何況是部分的人員在入境之後因為在台灣他沒有被通緝 所以自己就走了"},{"start":6933.812,"end":6956.064,"text":"他們在道路犯罪然後呢在台灣可能因為沒有被通緝所以呢回到台灣之後呢就自行離開這未來會不會又會造成我們這個治安的這個漏洞本席希望說你們應該要有更積極的作為那這個最後的本席也希望就是說你們可以再下次可以提供一個報告就是說是對於我方請求以及成功遣返以及陸方單方面"},{"start":6957.145,"end":6975.602,"text":"主動遣返的案件比例你們不見得需要就是這麼多年就是大概近5年或近10年你們的這個兩岸互助的情況然後給我一個更清楚的一個報告這樣可以嗎是 委員我們再來提報告好 謝謝 法務部麻煩你們會後記得把報告補給翁委員好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝翁委員"},{"start":6991.755,"end":7007.551,"text":"那接下來我們請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席 我們有請部長好 有請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":7012.415,"end":7028.313,"text":"部長好好那我想最近大家對於少年事件處理法呢有許多的討論跟爭議啦不過我想今天也是想要再跟部長做更多的討論就是說在少事法的核心呢其實就是以保護優先教育先行所以這個目的呢其實是要讓我們的"},{"start":7030.75,"end":7047.701,"text":"這個孩子呢能夠健全自我成長調整他的成長環境並矯正其他的性格所以我想我們還是一個很重要的重點就是專業的輔導跟支持讓他們可以降低災犯順利的能夠回到這個社會裡面"},{"start":7049.724,"end":7076.497,"text":"但是我想當我們在講保護先行的時候我們還是要去正視我們現在的制度上面的確有一些問題否則這可能就會讓這個保護反而讓大家非常的害怕反而就變成一個實際上的一個崩解的狀態所以我想接下來就想要跟這個部長在針對幾個特別是矯正學校上面來去做討論矯正學校的目的其實是要讓這些孩子能夠獲得授教權"},{"start":7078.629,"end":7106.744,"text":"但是根據基層教師教父小組的第一線反應呢我們現在校內的氛圍還是偏向於是戒護安全優於教育輔導我想這個其實之前也有非常多的委員都來關心過這一題那我們今天其實所有的今天的內容呢都是第一線的人員從社工程特教從教父老師這邊得到的一些回饋所以也希望說可能在實務上面我們可以怎麼樣來協助大家做改善然後來落實我們兒少的一個保護"},{"start":7107.765,"end":7127.893,"text":"還有我們這些孩子的受教權所以呢第一個問題就是說教學連貫性常常因為安全考量或是人力不足而中斷就例如說我們可以看到在日本他們有很多的執訓來提供給這些孩子那我們台灣也有好像餐飲課的孩子他們也是有烘焙課的課程可是呢我們從第一線人員的回饋裡面得到說"},{"start":7129.835,"end":7137.47,"text":"有些孩子他們本來應該要進行實作課程的時候卻因為介乎人力調度不過來所以孩子最後只能上理論課那"},{"start":7140.686,"end":7160.581,"text":"我想現在我們在這個教政學校的孩子呢其實他們成長的背景都比較可能52%我看到一些報告都是來自於競評或是單親就是這個家庭資源其實是相對薄弱的所以他們其實不太有機會可以去探索他自己那在我們108課綱裡面其實有個重點就是希望可以讓他們去探索嘛"},{"start":7161.141,"end":7190.024,"text":"那現在就變成是說當這個孩子要探索之前我們先有一個最大的問題是我們有沒有更多的穩定的資源例如心腹資源 特教資源讓他能夠安心去探索所以這是第一個部分我們還能不能有更好的一個比例那在第二個部分是說當他去做探索跟他去做這些課程的時候我們常常又會因為介護跟教學衝突而造成他最後可能只能上理論課所以我們是不是可以去"},{"start":7191.525,"end":7211.652,"text":"盤點我們因為借戶人力不足而導致他沒有辦法進行實作這樣子的一個狀態到底統計數字上面有多少我們是不是可以來做這兩件事情好謝謝那這部分因為這部分我有關心我是不是請那個矯正署署長可以就關於邵教肖跟邵官所這部分沒問題邵教肖好謝謝"},{"start":7214.102,"end":7234.133,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員跟我們提到這些問題其實每一個小中學校 現在我們有四所小中學校每個小中學校裡面都有一個校長校長是由教育的人來擔任的他會評估當下的那個介入安全跟教育的一個課程的安排他會做評估的所以說我們不會偏重在介入安全"},{"start":7235.615,"end":7262.877,"text":"我的問題在於說我們知道但是我們也非常清楚的知道裡面流動率非常的高所以我們是不是可以更清楚的用數據來去呈現說有多少的實作課程因為介護人力不足而導致他最後只能上理論課因為其實在植訓來說最有趣的地方就是實作課對不對我們不可能全部都上理論課我們一定要有更多的實作課讓孩子有機會去操作因為對於一些特教在特教教育上面也會有一些透過實作的方式讓孩子可以更穩定"},{"start":7263.838,"end":7287.398,"text":"所以今天如果說我們可以有一個更清楚的明確的統計資料的話我們就會知道說到底多少因此而受影響否則現在都是一種感覺上對不對所以這件事情是不是可以做一個盤點呢我們可不可以從現在開始來做統計受到影響的狀態那第二個問題呢其實就是說我們現在還有一個就是司法矯正主導跟教育輔導介入之間的一個專業磨合"},{"start":7292.482,"end":7308.834,"text":"就是也是現場人員告訴我們說矯正人員跟教育人員的一個教育訓練本來背景就是不太一樣就是過去我們都是以矯正人員為主可是我們現在已經加入了很多不管是新福拉特教其實都已經把這些人員專業給納入可是他們現在沒有共同的職前訓練也就"},{"start":7310.495,"end":7325.011,"text":"也就造成說他們沒有辦法彼此理解而造成標準不一那現場管理也就造成了一些困難所以我們是在想說有沒有可能呢這個是可以來做一個針對新進的矯正人員我們提供一個心理發展的專業增能課程"},{"start":7330.557,"end":7346.349,"text":"讓他們在這個制度的設計之下可以彼此了解然後不會變成是說一般都是扮得非常黑的黑臉管秩序然後完全不理解他的心理發展跟創傷因為大部分的孩子都有一些創傷嘛所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來做還是"},{"start":7347.309,"end":7367.328,"text":"實務上都有這樣在做每一個新進人員都會一年會至少調到我們書裡面來訓練一次那在現場運作上的話像校長是教育人員副校長是我們矯正人員所以說校長副校長他們兩個人都會去溝通去評估當下的話我們應該怎麼處置是最好的基本上我們還是以教育先行這樣的目標在推行的"},{"start":7367.912,"end":7393.378,"text":"好 我想因為我們今天所諮詢的內容是第一線的回饋所以也許我們這邊的理解跟第一線的也是存在落差所以是不是有可能我們可以來提供給我們一個資料就是說我們到底現在安排的這些對於矯正人員來提供的一些不管是心理啦 特教啦這些職能的訓練 真能訓練的一個數字到底每一年有多少 每個學校做多頻繁"},{"start":7394.778,"end":7403.82,"text":"一個一個矯正人員是做到上完一次之後就結束了嗎還是他有持續的在上這個資料是不是可以就可以提供給我們再提供資料給委員謝謝那再來就是說"},{"start":7405.749,"end":7426.548,"text":"還有還是他們說他們第一線工作者反映他們的工作量非常的大甚至要分攤非專業背景的政策業務嚴重的壓縮他們個案輔導的品質實際上來說輔導教師可能一個人要對40個人所以這要如何去維持品質呢我想這個部分其實也是蠻需要"},{"start":7427.188,"end":7449.181,"text":"我們這個矯正署再來協助我們現場人員的一點就是說他們很在意校內日常處遇如何運作以及如何共同接觸學生所以是不是可以研議一個建立專屬矯正學校的跨領域之前與在職共同研習來確保我們的矯正人員跟教育人員能夠用同一套語言來溝通"},{"start":7451.52,"end":7469.118,"text":"這個部分是可以的嗎可以可以 謝謝委員的指導那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤這個相關的進度呢跟委員報告 其實我們的輔導老師的一個比例的話最高是1比31 最低是1比14所以說以市所學到的你不會達到1比40這樣的一個輔導老師這樣的比例"},{"start":7469.318,"end":7480.767,"text":"好 那沒關係因為我們現在是從那個現場得到的一些回饋還是說我們再約時間針對這一題我們再來詳細討論好不好好 那再來因為我還有別的題目還有就是特教資源"},{"start":7483.356,"end":7512.494,"text":"好那基本上就是在2023年我們特教法修正之後呢有強調要保證特教學生的學習權益跟合理調整而是以我們現在的四所矯正學校的障礙生來說呢合理調整跟特教支持的落實有明顯的落差也是老師們的回饋啦就是說矯正學校的特殊教育正在面臨嚴重的鑑定與結構性體制的困境因為呢他們的背景來源其實相當的複雜可能不管是入校前中錯啦然後或是幫派的文化等等的"},{"start":7513.374,"end":7539.102,"text":"那這就導入他們在入校之後的障礙樣態非常的複雜跟傳統的教育體系是存在的一個落差所以是說我們現在送鑑定的個案呢常常因為資料難以佐證或是難以排除藥物的影響而被判成非特教生也就是說他因為今天是特教生他才能夠得到特教資源可是他今天被判非特教生的時候他就拿不到這些特教資源所以"},{"start":7540.299,"end":7561.955,"text":"這是一個問題那再來第二個就是說特教還有我們非常強調就是個別化的一個需求來提供給他針對性的一些支持可是我們現在在矯正學校常常會強調一個所謂的一致性的管理跟戒護安全所以就變成是說因為矯正學校的孩子落差非常非常的大樣態也很不一致所以"},{"start":7563.096,"end":7578.296,"text":"現在一般特教體系用的一些教材教案到了矯正學校也常常不適用所以我們是不是可以做一件事情就是邀請我們的鑑定單位還有矯正學校的特教老師共同建立一個更適合"},{"start":7579.057,"end":7595.05,"text":"矯正學校的鑑定標準並且常態化的去辦理出任教師的研習跟教材教法的支持來確保我們的司法端的管教跟我們的專業需求這個差異化的需求可以達到一個平衡是是是"},{"start":7595.863,"end":7616.012,"text":"跟委員報告目前的話我們有經過鑑定這案的特教學生總共是146名那我們的那個特教的老師是11名平均是1比13點多那目前我們跟國教署雙方談的是說1比15這樣的比例所以說我們是有符合國教署這樣的比例可是未來都我們朝向1比8的比例來邁進"},{"start":7616.932,"end":7632.168,"text":"我想這裡面其實不是比例的問題當然比例就是說比例的確是維持但是我們其實特教老師的流動率也非常高新任的比例也非常高那再來就是說今天講的重點其實是孩子沒有辦法被判為特教生"},{"start":7634.013,"end":7660.661,"text":"不過那個是一個持續性的一個鑑別問題我們有特教老師在那一邊我們會訓練我們的特教老師具有鑑別的能力如果這個學生他已經出現是智商是學習障礙是情緒障礙等等的話我們會再重新再跟他鑑定所以他們多久會評估一次呢這個要看那個老師他現場看到的情形只要發覺他當下有這樣的障礙需要去跟他鑑定的話那個老師就這樣做這樣的安排"},{"start":7661.414,"end":7683.262,"text":"好那這個部分我們是不是也可以約時間來詳細的討論呢因為其實特教的問題也是蠻複雜的啦那我想最後一個一點這個可能要請這個教政署衛福部還有法務部跟衛福部一起來討論就是說這些孩子離開學校之後他如何回歸社會那其實回歸社會他就要回到他原本的家庭裡面"},{"start":7684.022,"end":7702.974,"text":"那如果我家庭可以支持的話他基本上就可以在家庭裡面好好的回歸社會可是如果家庭不能支持的狀況之下他可能就回到幫派或是離開家庭去的別的地方對不對宗廟都有可能好那所以呢我們現在在家庭端其實我們也都非常清楚的知道52%的孩子家庭其實相當不健全"},{"start":7703.514,"end":7721.63,"text":"所以這可能就要跟衛福部來持續的討論如何的去支持這些家庭的功能變好這樣子才有可能讓這些孩子真正的是能夠在家庭裡被支持因為我們從這個一些統計的研究發現很多的家長回去也是繼續的打罵啦或者是"},{"start":7722.711,"end":7749.614,"text":"不是非常好的一個管教方式啦所以我們是不是可以跟這個衛福部來重新我不曉得現在有沒有一個非常好的一個機制來去給家長支持這個部分可不可以簡單說明一下是 跟委員說明一下其實從學生入校六週內的時候我們就跟衛福部的保護師做逆境少年他的家庭支持服務方案我們就會跟他做一個聯繫的我們希望說這個少年能夠貫穿式的一個保護服務從他入校開始一直到他出校為止"},{"start":7750.235,"end":7756.789,"text":"該有的學籍轉嫌就業的媒合還是他需要什麼社政資源的接觸的話我們跟衛福部的保護師都有密切的在聯絡當中"},{"start":7758.069,"end":7779.975,"text":"而且她出校的時候我們在追蹤一年但是我想齁 因為我們的兒少的再犯率相對來說也還是偏高啦所以表示說這個機制上面到底運作的如何對 那這個部分是不是也可以給我們現在你們的一個運作機制的這個簡單的說明好不好這個應該是可以匯報或者是就可以提供的吧 對不對好 我們再提供詳細資料給委員好 那我們就在約時間再來詳細討論 謝謝好 謝謝張委員那麼"},{"start":7788.233,"end":7788.253,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7803.706,"end":7820.398,"text":"部長早安今天是我第一次來我們司法法治委員會跟您質詢我非常關心的事情就是未成年性侵的追溯期自成年起算這件事部長可以看到我現在這個投影片上是我從2022年"},{"start":7822.279,"end":7841.752,"text":"就持續關注這個議題因為真的有非常多的案件特別就是狼獅性侵案那當受害者說出來的時候事實上都已經是就是超過追溯期非常久那因為本來法務部都沒有就是回應"},{"start":7842.512,"end":7869.651,"text":"所以我也跟陳健院長總質詢謝謝那次院長跟當時的法務部就在2023年同意即刻啟動修法除了法務部之外我們也呼籲大法官應該要處理事件案因為好幾位公益律師跟受害人站出來認為我們這個追溯期的限制事實上是違反憲法保障的人權"},{"start":7870.812,"end":7889.586,"text":"那我想最新的進度部長應該非常的了解因為我看你們的今天的報告中都有提到那我非常肯定法務部在今年一月這是一月的新聞就已經提出修法然後政院也已經通過了那目前正在跟司法院在會選"},{"start":7891.127,"end":7913.514,"text":"然後那也肯定司法院目前有釋憲案正在進行中這是今年三月就是這個月的新聞那但是我想講的事情今天在跟您質詢是要提的是刑法只是第一步被害人保護其實需要其他的配套"},{"start":7914.014,"end":7941.24,"text":"那這邊我以一個個案跟部長交流部長有沒有聽過有一個戲曲學院案這部分我沒聽過沒有聽過沒關係那我跟您說明一下這個戲曲學院案是2002年 2008年就爆出的那戲曲學院的老師他對學生性侵那有學生出來揭發那最後調查的結果"},{"start":7941.94,"end":7961.278,"text":"是有五個學生明確被性侵其中包含14歲的學生在住宿期間而且可能還有一些沒有出來檢舉的黑暗黑數這個是調查確定的你可以看到我2024年3月的時候就開記者會"},{"start":7965.402,"end":7980.036,"text":"當時這個學校當時我們還沒有講哪個學校是某國立學校喔需要教育部專案介入因為它事實上學校有處理不公的問題喔那這是我們在2024年3月的記者會就直接要求教育部專案介入"},{"start":7980.737,"end":7994.43,"text":"那教育部後來也介入了你可以看到2025年2月在我們的記者會之後11個月監委紀惠蓉也調查確立國家對不起這些孩子"},{"start":7995.775,"end":8017.867,"text":"為什麼監委說的是國家對不起這些孩子而不是只是加害人下一個給部長看一下監察院調查的報告謝舉學院在民國92年當時還要求這個未成年被害學生向行為人這個狼屍道歉而且還嚴重吃案"},{"start":8018.847,"end":8045.893,"text":"那這個部分明明他們的性別平等教育委員會提出意見可是卻沒有辦法審議通過然後教育部居然以當時人力不足沒有名列性別平等教育的業務執掌並沒有處理導致這個理事民國92年的事情後來延宕15年又沒有處理中間有更多的學生受害"},{"start":8046.993,"end":8061.528,"text":"所以監察院明確糾正教育部有責任當年就失職戲曲學院學校當年失職學生這麼小年紀的學生都敢站出來居然學校是叫學生跟老師道歉"},{"start":8062.328,"end":8088.808,"text":"那我想這件事情2025年後來教育部也給壓力而且教育部還必須要用扣3.1億的補助款吸取學院才教評會重審後來呢讓郎師跟包庇者全部都解聘這是在大家追追追之下得到的結果我想看完這件這個個案之後不知道部長您會不會覺得"},{"start":8091.21,"end":8115.022,"text":"國家有責任因為戲曲學校是公立大學公立學校的確這個是要譴責的有這些的狼屍的這個那我想跟本部有關的跟法務部有關大概就是我很關心的就是民法的待會兒我再問您您先談一下您聽完這個故事覺得國家有沒有責任國家應該要"},{"start":8117.663,"end":8135.351,"text":"幫助協助這些被害人來維護他的權利國家當然應該協助被害人那監察院 教育部跟國立台灣系舉學院都有處理疏失那您認為這樣國家是不是有責任我想我們就尊重監察院的一個調查的一個結論那監察院這樣那我再告訴你後續"},{"start":8136.871,"end":8163.969,"text":"後續他一直得不到任何賠償您看一下這個是當事受害人我還跟他碰過面真的讓人非常的感動他現在已經長大了在文化界領域工作因為這是戲曲學院可是他願意為他的公平當年就是兒少的公平正義有律師一起要求賠償國立台灣戲曲學院拒絕賠償"},{"start":8166.583,"end":8194.651,"text":"那這是他到目前為止沒有辦法得到任何的賠償我們看一下所有相關的賠償法規你們處理的是刑事對不對刑法可是國家賠償法的請求權是5年民事的求償請求權15年發生在2002、2008年的事到2024年才明確性侵案成立所以我要講的事情我肯定法務部修了刑法"},{"start":8195.071,"end":8205.253,"text":"但是沒有配套他出來其實這對他都是一個創傷沒有得到任何的賠償所以人權還是有傷害的那我想"},{"start":8206.491,"end":8235.436,"text":"之前有民間團體跟你們詢問你們回答是說法律有它的安定性的問題可是你們這次刑法第80條的修正草案也講了性侵害犯罪本質具有隱秘性然後被害人案發時如果身心發展尚未成熟可能會導致心理創傷等等還有跟加害人之間權力不對等戲曲學院就是老師性侵14歲的少年"},{"start":8236.056,"end":8258.181,"text":"所以你們雖然法律秩序有安定性可是性侵害犯罪尤其是兒少有權力不對等為了實現司法正義所以對於這類人不計入追溯權實效的立法令我想問部長的是刑法可以這樣寫那民法是不是也可以"},{"start":8258.901,"end":8284.888,"text":"跟委員報告的確我們有在做一個研擬的一個修正的草案在把剛才委員關心的就是說剛才那個民法的是197條那個侵權行為的那還有時效15一般的時效是15年那剛才委員提到說行事是不是那個不算的確是行事在性侵犯罪那個在被案滿20歲以前的這些時效都不算"},{"start":8286.088,"end":8301.951,"text":"要從滿20歲才開始起算那這是我們民法的修正的初稿我們是朝這個方向去做一個考量謝謝那容我先打岔那很高興聽到你們民法正在嚴禮當中比照這個刑法那這邊為了給部長底氣我也幫你查了一下其他的國家都有類似的做法"},{"start":8309.693,"end":8334.042,"text":"以澳洲來講是國際間做得最徹底的那它基本上國家機構代表要親自致歉與承認譬如說如果今天是國力系取決這個機構要親自道歉承認然後最高可以得到15萬澳幣台幣就320萬的補償那還有心理諮商等等那這些都是其他的部分"},{"start":8334.682,"end":8357.488,"text":"那不只是澳洲加拿大安大略省他也很明確取消未成年性侵的民事訴訟時效這個就在政府的網站上可以看到那提到說這裡面有不對等的關係受害者可能依賴就是這個當事人等等所以他這裡面no limitation period就很明確的講"},{"start":8358.228,"end":8382.219,"text":"沒有時間的限制我想部長應該知道我剛講我們跟多個民團倡議還有一個犯罪被害人權益保障法裡面也有時效的部分這幾個法因為時間的緣故我這邊列出三法中間的民法您剛講到正在研議犯罪被害人權益保障法"},{"start":8383.22,"end":8395.462,"text":"裡面補償金請求時效還有一個我們剛講到監察院認定國家有責國家賠償法是不是也應該要一起全面來檢討研議一下那部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":8400.305,"end":8418.295,"text":"有關於那個民法 國配法還有犯罪被害人補償法這我們就會通盤考量那謝謝部長 承諾通盤檢討那兩個月內可以給本席跟我們司法法制委員一個書面報告嗎是 可以喔好 謝謝部長 我們一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝范雲委員也歡迎加入我們司法委員會那接下來我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":8429.946,"end":8431.367,"text":"主席我們請部長有請部長委員好部長好"},{"start":8456.601,"end":8472.437,"text":"我想我今天看到我們這個法務部的這個有關於業務報告的書面計畫之外那我看到我們法務部的這個立法我們有另外附上一本法務部的立法計畫立法計畫裡面列出了我們這個我們要這個計畫立法的清單"},{"start":8473.718,"end":8498.245,"text":"裡面共計42案42案裡面有的是我們法務部還在研議中的有的是行政院在審查中的有的是會前司法院的有的是已經送到我們立法院的委員會審查中的那大部分這些法案都是我看這個社會都有諸多的討論也都是一些這個重要的這個法律修正案這個部分我都"},{"start":8499.305,"end":8518.915,"text":"我也仔細的看了所有的全部42案的這個相關的內容其中我特別感興趣社會比較這個討論度比較低的齁這部分我想特別今天利用這個質詢的機會齁來跟部長討論一下也就是我們這個立法計畫清單裡面的第19案齁有關滋恐防治法的這個修正草案"},{"start":8520.581,"end":8539.55,"text":"這部分我們的這個滋恐防治法在2016年制定至今已經十年了十年那這個其中只有在2018年做了一次修正那這個這一次我看了我們的這個修正連我們整個法案的名稱也做了一些修正這部分是不是能夠請部長先稍微簡單說一下簡短一下"},{"start":8541.003,"end":8562.444,"text":"把這個修法的重點有關滋恐有關這個滋恐防治法的修法重點這個滋恐防治法這部分的確是要因應那個亞太防治洗錢組織第三項目拼件所指的一個缺失啦那以及說是國際社會入獄關制諸五課行為造成一個威脅所以要把這個做一個修法那我們這樣的一個"},{"start":8565.327,"end":8585.206,"text":"我幫你來整理幾個重點第一個是立法目的有一個最重要的第一個目的就是過去的這個資恐防治法所謂資恐就是資助恐怖活動恐怖組織恐怖分子這在第一條裡面明定但是我們現在除了資恐之外我們又增加了一個非常重要的部分叫做資武擴"},{"start":8587.228,"end":8613.184,"text":"也就是資助這個大規模的毀滅性武器擴散我們把這個資武擴甚至放到法案名稱裡面去了表示說這是我們這次修法的一大重點就從過去的這個資恐資助資助恐怖活動恐怖組織恐怖份子之外我們在規範另外增加規範有關於資助大規模毀滅武器擴散的部分為什麼做這樣修正其實剛剛部長在簡單念的時候就講到一個重點就是這個"},{"start":8614.786,"end":8632.246,"text":"這個事實上亞太的這個洗錢防治組織齁他們事實上在做這個相關的這個相互評鑑裡面齁他們針對我國現在的資管防治法提出了這個重大的漏洞提出了有關於有關於支五擴的重大漏洞這是我們過去我們的資管防治法沒有規範的對不對部長"},{"start":8633.847,"end":8661.761,"text":"對的確是沒有錯所以因為把這明確定義那個大規模毀滅性武器擴散的當作一個規範的一個基礎所以我們在這個除了這個法案名稱增加了資武擴以外另外我們針對資武擴的犯罪形態的相關的這個這個構成要件他的法律效果等等也做了相關的規定是除此之外我們還有一個一個重要的就在我們實務的需求上面新增加這個我們的這個目標這些金融"},{"start":8662.401,"end":8687.006,"text":"金融的制裁制裁制度那以及他們相關的這些通報跟可疑的這些申報的義務過去他們有通報跟申報的義務現在我們增加他有關制恐禍的部分他的這些金融機構以及這個這個指定的這些非金融事業跟人員他們都有相關的申報跟通報的義務也規範在這些新法裡面對不對是以前沒有嘛這次是新增的增訂的好"},{"start":8688.123,"end":8716.486,"text":"那這個大概就是我個人比較關注的啦齁那這個所以我看這幾個重點齁除了剛剛講的名稱跟這些相關的這些滋恐過的法律規範之外另外我們有一個重大的修正就是有關於我們過去這個滋恐防治審議會我們也做了修改對不對過去我們的這個滋恐防治審議會齁我們包括他的名稱也改他的成員"},{"start":8717.523,"end":8739.445,"text":"也做了增加他的職責我們也做了更動名稱的部分過去是知恐防治審議會我們現在變成知恐及知武廓防治審議會名稱上面做了改變成員的部分除了過去的各部會之外我們現在新增了財政部跟交通部對不對財政部跟交通部這兩個副首長都必須要加入"},{"start":8742.447,"end":8756.671,"text":"這個審議會嘛吼更重要的是他過去其實他的角色是在於這些政策的研議啦法案的這些審查還有這個相關的計畫的核定跟這個業務的督導過去是一個督導性質的但是現在不是了現在不是了現在我們這個這個"},{"start":8759.225,"end":8773.642,"text":"審議委員會它包括了受制裁者的指定你要指定誰受制裁必須由這個委員會這委員會新的功能職能另外以及誰能夠從這個制裁裡面除名有關於指定跟除名都是未來都是由這個審議會"},{"start":8775.433,"end":8797.65,"text":"由這個資孔跟資武庫審議會來審定對不對部長這個是規定在第五條到第十一條對這部分是一個很重大的變更啦這個特別是交通部非常特別因為事實上相關的有關於大規模武器擴散的許多的資助模式他都跟海上交通有相關的有非常重大的關聯那這個"},{"start":8800.421,"end":8828.342,"text":"另外我們這個也新增了這個剛剛講到有關金融機構跟指定非金融事業跟人員的義務通報義務跟申報的義務我們也增加了那另外關於資務或犯罪規範的修正修正裡面有些重點我這邊也不一一提第一個是說它過去的要件主觀要件過去是以明知為條件一般故意就可以了對那現在變成這個一般故意這個是一個很重大的修正"},{"start":8829.463,"end":8849.611,"text":"那另外這個有關於這個過去受制裁資助受制裁者過去是指你也只有資助恐怖組織恐怖分子但是對於資助受制裁者在過去是沒有規範的現在以後你去資助這個被制裁的人這個也受到我們這個新法的規範這也是一個部分那這個"},{"start":8850.811,"end":8866.267,"text":"但是這裡面更重要的這個部長我希望讓社會大家了解透過這個執行讓社會大家了解就是說我們的這個什麼叫做這個資武擴什麼叫做這個資助大規模毀滅性武器的擴散"},{"start":8867.902,"end":8895.442,"text":"這些並不是我們自己可以隨意定義的我們在法條裡面定義得非常清楚它是禁止與經聯合國安理會制裁是聯合國安理會制裁的而且這是第一個條件第二個要經過我國公告除了聯合國安理會制裁了我國還要公告公告禁止或管制貿易的國家或地區那這個你在這些地區從事貿易或是任何的貨物交易都是屬於這個置物或犯罪"},{"start":8896.55,"end":8912.897,"text":"對不對 這個部分 這個是犯罪是有規定在17跟18條修正18條更重要的是過去一些相關我們所謂紅旗行為就是說他本身還沒有看真正的資助但他做了什麼動作例如說他的傳播 他隱匿實際的交易資訊或者說他無故關閉這個傳播的自動識別系統"},{"start":8917.574,"end":8943.373,"text":"我可以說我沒有資助啊我只是把那個識別系統關閉掉或者是你去土改或者是為居民這些土改你的船舶辨識的編號這種行為在過去它並沒有進入這個滋口防治法的管制但是現在包括你去篡改航海日誌或者是你不做航海日誌的記錄這些行為其實這個紅旗行為在這次的修法裡面我們都納入規範了對不對"},{"start":8945.314,"end":8970.87,"text":"所以這個事其實是很重要啦這個要讓國人了解說我們這個重大...而且這個法案現在事實上已經在本委員會了對 這已經送立法院審查了那只是一直沒有安排審查啦那這樣子的規範重要的是什麼我們舉這個2019年發生的這個案例有關於我們台商我們黃信台商涉嫌將這個3000噸的石油偷賣給遭到制裁的北韓"},{"start":8972.045,"end":8983.596,"text":"北韓的船隻這個這個案子齁在2019年齁發生那在這個2023年最後判決確定在過去以舊法的規範最後判決結果是什麼部長記不記得"},{"start":8987,"end":9004.825,"text":"最後我們只能按照這個滋恐防治法這個是一年一年對一年最後判處一年那是蠻輕的啦很輕啦他除了這個違反滋恐防治法以外另外在未照文書四個月還一顆罰金啊那這個在國際上面在看這個重大的這個違反這個武器擴散"},{"start":9007.276,"end":9024.874,"text":"這個行為裡面我們最後只這樣子過去舊法只能這樣輕判但是事實上如果我們能夠順利修法完成的話像這樣子的相關的行為不只他的那些剛剛我所講的那些紅旗行為都可以個別成立犯罪另外按照這個第17條過去是一年現在變成五年了"},{"start":9025.635,"end":9044.709,"text":"變成五年以下的遊戲圖形這個就天差地遠這個部分是非常重要的一個修正那我希望說這個我們這個部長能夠利用相關的機會讓這個社會了解我們在這個滋恐防治法上面我們所做的這個修改的方向也讓國際社會能夠理解到"},{"start":9045.389,"end":9064.517,"text":"台灣在這個有關這個防止這個大規模的毀滅性武器的擴散上面台灣所做的法治上的努力好不好好謝謝我們希望這個禁訴能夠通過好那另外第二個部分有關這個前面其實有委員提到了那我現在也一方面時間關係我就比較簡單的講就是"},{"start":9066.601,"end":9086.893,"text":"有關於我們被害人的陳述這之前早上也有委員提到被害人的陳述的權利在我們目前現有的法治上面不管刑事訴訟法的第271條他在審判日他能夠有陳述意見的機會被害感情的陳述另外在第289條在證據調查完畢之後在事實跟法律辯論"},{"start":9093.477,"end":9117.065,"text":"這個辯論之後在這個就苛刑範圍辯論之前被害人有陳述的機會這都是刑事做法明定的另外這個我們的國民法官法也特別明定於苛刑辯論前這個被害人跟其家屬依法得陳述意見這些都是目前法治上面有保障的包括審判期日包括這個苛刑辯論前但是一旦進入"},{"start":9118.771,"end":9141.505,"text":"這個執行的層面之後到這個刑罰執行的時候有關於假釋的部分目前這個被害人能不能在假釋在這個受刑人假釋與否的這個過程裡面表達被害人的意見這部分目前我們的法治保障是不足的啦是不足的第一個在法治上面沒有明定我們目前沒有明定但我們並不是沒有做"},{"start":9142.466,"end":9161.433,"text":"但是我目前所做的他的規範的成績非常的低他是在用我們這個刑事訴訟法裡面所授權的不是用監獄刑刑法所授權的授權的這個受刑人假釋實施辦法裡面在這個實施辦法這裡面才提到"},{"start":9162.293,"end":9187.079,"text":"有關於而且他在他在這個假釋這第三條裡面提到說有關假釋資料的申請的審查有六項這個犯行的情節啊這個在間的形狀犯罪記錄教化腳趾處遇成效更生計畫之後的第六項其他其他裡面的一小項第五項裡面提到說被害人及其遺屬之陳述意見"},{"start":9188.806,"end":9207.256,"text":"所以他已經是在法律授權之下的辦法辦法裡面的各項裡面的其他四項裡面的一個小項提到這個那實際上我看你們這個實際的執行我也看你們有關這個假設的這些面談 摘要表裡面"},{"start":9208.696,"end":9233.644,"text":"有關面談原因的部分才有一項是被害人跟其遺屬申請意見是說為什麼面談是因為被害人原因而已至於被害人的意見究竟在整個假釋制度裡面佔多少比例其實是非常非常的低啦我按照你們這個評估等級對照表裡面去對照其實這個幾乎是沒有踩到這個意見這部分部長是不是你先在政策上面"},{"start":9234.702,"end":9259.267,"text":"有關於被害人在假釋制度裡面是不是我們能夠在法制上面賦予他們陳述的意見陳述意見的機會並且把被害人的意見納入是否假釋的這個考量裡面在一個立法上我們再來檢討我們再來檢討那不然以現在實務上的確是有落實這部分的一個被害人的一個陳述跟遺屬的一個意見其實目前是沒有落實"},{"start":9260.027,"end":9278.505,"text":"目前大部分的現狀 那執行面是不是請那個署長署長 其實現在目前大部分很多的現狀都是這個被害人連說他的受刑人已經假釋了都還不知道每一個個案跟委員報告每一個個案我們會行文去調查調查被害人的意見被害人的意見我們再假釋報告"},{"start":9279.386,"end":9290.845,"text":"表裡面都有被害人意見的陳述另外他在提審查會的時候 教委是有一個報告報告說這個被害人表示的意見給教事審查委員做參考所以整個流程裡面我們都很慎重很嚴謹來看待這個問題"},{"start":9293.311,"end":9320.371,"text":"你現在抽像講,我其實可以拿你們的這個表裡面來看來看你們在這個評估這個受刑人假釋和平估量表你看它裡面有關於這個被害人的這個意見在這個估量表裡面他佔多少分數他在佔的比例而且現在現實上很多狀況是受刑人都已經假釋了,你被害人根本不知道連知道都不知道"},{"start":9321.872,"end":9344.223,"text":"相關的這樣子的通知義務這樣的告知義務我們都沒有在目前的法制上面有規定這個沒有關係因為目前的法制確實是沒有規定我是希望說我們法務部能夠在法制上面來做彌補那在整個制度的改革上面我們能夠現在我還沒有要求你們做一個統計到底有多少案件"},{"start":9345.287,"end":9364.284,"text":"多少假設案件你是不是連被害人連知道都不知道他佔多少比例你們也沒有統計我有詢問你們你們也沒有統計那相關這樣子的案件數沒有統計之外我還是希望說能夠這個不要只是在刑事上面表格裡面的最小的內項裡面一個小小的分數是被害人的意見我認為"},{"start":9366.185,"end":9384.614,"text":"這個在相關一定法律要件之下被害人在假釋的過程裡面所佔的意見應該要予以他法治的地位以及予以他這個加強他的意見的對於這個是否假釋的結果的影響這部分我是希望部長能夠在法治上面來做這方面好不好好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":9406.589,"end":9407.253,"text":"主席麻煩部長好有請部長"},{"start":9414.533,"end":9440.099,"text":"部長早部長我長期接獲不少民眾陳情反映一種犯罪模式犯罪者會在IG或的社群平台建立女性的虛擬人設長時間跟被害人聊天培養性的後誘導對方進行視訊的裸聊或者是拍攝私密影像並在過程當中去測入之後再把這影像"},{"start":9441.179,"end":9463.88,"text":"拿到那telegram的群組或者是論壇或者是交友平台來販賣甚至以騙換騙的方式呢持續的流傳而且受害對象不只是兒少也常鎖定外型較好的人譬如說運動員軍警醫護等穿制服的職業有甚至出現集體鎖定的情況部長你知道這個犯罪的模式嗎"},{"start":9465.494,"end":9489.361,"text":"這個的確實務上常常有這種的案例那我覺得再來問你第二個就目前行事實務通常是以哪些罪名來做處理這算不算一種詐欺模式當然如果說有有強暴脅迫的這個是有刑法319-2來規範那少年這部分如果說這是一個詐欺的話實務上是有詐欺得利罪"},{"start":9489.901,"end":9497.494,"text":"判掉的這種的案例我可是不講這不只是不僅是詐欺啦還可能同時構成好恐嚇取材耳哨性剝削以及"},{"start":9498.538,"end":9526.216,"text":"組織犯罪的這些相關的議題而部長陳勤仁跟我反映說第一線執法的流程存在一些落差譬如說有些案件警方會先通知嫌疑人到案說明簡單詢問後就現場查看他的手機或者是影像裝置就發現沒有證據後就先讓犯罪嫌疑人離開但是沒有同步進行搜索或者是扣押"},{"start":9526.956,"end":9547.535,"text":"這樣子可能就導致我們的證據流失我知道這第一線的偵查人員都非常的辛苦可是對這類的案件檢警是不是有統一的SOP流程確保在鎖定嫌疑人後如果有必要的話就能夠優先進行搜索和扣押以確保嫌疑人不會有滅證的可能性有辦法做到嗎"},{"start":9548.375,"end":9575.999,"text":"我想實務上像這種的性侵的案件的一個偵辦保全這個的確是非常重要因為它會存在就像那個數位的保存要知道被害人最受苦的就是影響外流之後永無寧日所以這部分基本上那個案件的偵辦都會先申請搜索票或者先來進行搜索來扣證來避免那個證據的流失"},{"start":9576.599,"end":9596.489,"text":"那這部分我想實務上基本上的做法是這樣部長真的是這樣嗎我再來跟你請教一下關於網路犯罪的管轄實務見解上有廣義跟狹義來做區分這部長你這部分部長應該知道吧那今年新影像案件越來越網路化組織化加害人"},{"start":9597.309,"end":9626.352,"text":"就會是常透過社群平台暗網或者是加密的通訊軟體彼此串聯那犯罪行為可能遍及全台可是如果你的廣義的話那當然沒有問題可是如果你是用狹義的來偵辦的話就會變成說那個網在設置網站的地方甚至電子郵件的主機所在地你去認定的話有時候就會有問題因為很多相關影像或證據也都藏在個人電腦硬碟或者是雲端空間如果偵查時"},{"start":9627.192,"end":9655.868,"text":"的時候沒有辦法統一指揮因為有時候事實上是全部前來可是如果你只針對一個地方的話那其他的地方也是可能會有滅政的可能性所以如果你沒辦法去統一指揮同步來進行搜查的話一旦其中有一個人被查獲那他通知其他人那其他的成員就可能立即滅政轉移群組然後繼續翻案這不會是一件好事所以部長關於這個問題法務部應該如何因應獲得有沒有具體的作為"},{"start":9660.283,"end":9667.505,"text":"這部分因為的確有廣譽說跟狹譽說的一個問題因為各地現在辦案的方式都不太一樣高檢署是有統合來做一個管轄權的指定看給哪個地檢署來偵辦會比較妥適因為的確是我們也擔心法院萬一是採狹譽說的話這個會有這些沒辦法"},{"start":9685.09,"end":9707.216,"text":"所以像我們那個創意司法這邊我們就是給台中地檢來偵辦嘛創意司法這邊其實以來講以廣義說明每個地檢署都有管轄權嘛但是我們有統合給台中地檢高見來指定給統合給台中地檢部長我要問你像以這個陳情案例來講光兩個資料夾的影片數量秀高達"},{"start":9708.869,"end":9723.165,"text":"KQ看到了所以想問你說重大性影像案件的成立專案標準是什麼是案件規模呢還是影片數量還是被害人數因為這事實上是陳情人給我的資料你要到底多大的案件的性質"},{"start":9723.686,"end":9746.303,"text":"都已經是有7223個檔案他還是不成立不成立專案有6800個檔案也不會成立專案你們到底要多大的案件的性質跟規模跟複雜程度你們才會成立專案然後來查所以內部到底有沒有一致性的標準這個有多少的檔案這個都是要查了才知道"},{"start":9747.344,"end":9776.103,"text":"那我想可是他已經是給你們結果你們到底有沒有去做查到底能不能成立專案來調查警方如果說有會報詞彙我們都會用專案來處理這部分會專案來處理可是我說這個陳情人他已經去跟你報案那你們有一千個成員的甚至裡面搜索他們自己在這成員裡面他們是當成員他那邊有六千八百個檔案的你也沒有成立專案小組如果說那個司法警察機關有報詞彙我想我們都是用專案來處理的"},{"start":9777.003,"end":9802.364,"text":"我真的也要跟你反映一種狀況這類案件受害的不是只有女性現在非常多因為我現在接到這陳情的很多是男性而且有些人在報案或偵查過程當中都還遇到調侃說你一個男性怎麼會被騙呢這沒有分男女甚至一個嘲諷的情況被害人本來就承受很大的心理壓力如果在求助時又受到這樣的對待"},{"start":9803.184,"end":9820.022,"text":"可能以後更不敢去報案他也不知道誰對方側入了他當他發現的時候他去報案怎麼會有這樣狀況所以部長法務部是不是能夠有相關的教育訓練確保第一線人員在偵查過程當中能夠用更尊重"},{"start":9820.603,"end":9847.333,"text":"的態度來面對被害人他已經是受害了不要再去嘲諷他沒有人想要受害我想這個我的見解跟看法是跟委員一樣那我們也非常重視事實上我們那個剛才委員提到那個專案那個個案是的確我們都會是專案但是如果說是有專責小組在辦的話我們現在都是由副右專組在辦部長我還是要問就是說我剛剛就這是陳情人他已經去做這樣我說"},{"start":9848.593,"end":9871.993,"text":"到底你們成立專案的那個標準是什麼所以我在這邊請你一個月內提交報告也就是可不可以提供你們明確的性影像案件的處理流程還有成立專案小組的標準是什麼否則有一千一萬個成員甚至有這麼多檔案在裡面你們還是不成立專案小組啊"},{"start":9872.873,"end":9888.046,"text":"所以請你一個月內把這個報告給我是 那這邊我們再來做一個報告好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝林委員我們現在休息五分鐘對 不好意思因為我剛剛有進行宣告了不好意思 謝謝鍾委員"},{"start":10329.324,"end":10344.591,"text":"好 現在我們繼續開會我們有請鍾瑞雄委員謝謝主席有請我們法務部正部長還有我們蔣正署好 請部長還有蔣正署署長早安也好"},{"start":10348.325,"end":10370.431,"text":"副長 上個禮拜本院三讀通過了刑法跟刑法實刑法的一個修正案主要是在回應整個憲法法庭 憲判的一個意旨就是針對無期徒刑撤銷 假釋以律適用20年或者25年殘刑的制度來進行調整並且去依不同的犯罪形態"},{"start":10371.571,"end":10386.273,"text":"去設計差異化這樣的一個規範本席在這個地方肯定法務部跟朝野我們共同來完成這項的一個修法但是本席要特別提出來來救教法務部在今天業務報告裡面做一個提醒就是說"},{"start":10387.509,"end":10406.218,"text":"在草野協商的時候本席一直在提出一個呼籲就是說法律制度允許這個假釋不管是無歧途型或者有歧途型的受刑人他終歸要回歸到這個社會嘛那你回歸到社會啊所以你這個復歸社會以後你透過制度性的一個評估跟處喻"},{"start":10407.158,"end":10432.115,"text":"盡量讓他去降低風險這個在整個刑事政策裡面是非常關鍵的一環所以我要提出來就是說我們現在假設法院裁定緩刑來負責保護管署的現在的關乎人接手你關乎人接手後對個案再進行評估包括對社會的危害性或者是在犯風險的高低來擬定這樣處於的一個計畫"},{"start":10436.418,"end":10451.359,"text":"這個大家批評很久啦就是說常常比如說我是關務人的話我常常會留意主觀沒有一致性缺乏一致性的一個標準啦那在科學性跟實用性這個部分 法務部也有去精進"},{"start":10452.78,"end":10478.934,"text":"認為該提出一個比較較具本土性的科學性還有這個實用性的這樣的一個系統出來那我們改善的一個方案裡面你就是去建置保護管束人犯再犯風險評估的智慧輔助系統我現在搞不懂的地方就是說我們現在2023年我們的毒品暴力和性經危起點預測再犯的指標裡面我們現在就只有幾個新竹"},{"start":10480.393,"end":10505.378,"text":"苗栗台北跟台南所以我要問部長就是說這一套在範的風險的評估智慧的一個輔助系統到底是在什麼地方卡關他會跟他一體我們2023年開始到現在進入2026年我看你們還沒有繼續不可能說是一個客觀的標準就只有在這五個地檢那到底你的期程"},{"start":10506.67,"end":10533.122,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個有沒有設定就是說你在這個化部會資料整合的部分有幾位沒有啦我記得我上次講的是說你那個在英國在美國他們都發展出他們自己的系統啦譬如說美國他就針對受刑人不同的種類女性啦青少年啦成年人啦復歸社會犯罪人提供是種不同的一個版本啦"},{"start":10534.253,"end":10547.925,"text":"他們當然去跟他們的衛福 類似我們的衛福部跟教育部他們跟他們去做一個串接那這些有一個好處就是到最後去使用機關可以包含假釋的審查委員會或者"},{"start":10550.848,"end":10556.814,"text":"我們這邊的叫矯證署 監獄當局負責社區矯證的這些管情跟假釋部門相關處域提供一個像要因者的一個醫療端因為這串接啦我現在要問的就是我們2023到現在五個你再來 你現在2026你不可能只有這五個地檢署啊你其他的地檢署呢你有沒有規劃一個期程我這一點要來救救我們政府長謝謝"},{"start":10577.062,"end":10599.82,"text":"那其實這個是建制的是委託那個警大來研究團隊來建制的那當然的確是10110到12這是一個試辦階段1134系統的保固那114從去年開始那我們本部有編列預算就委外服務的經費進行維護那今年要配合系統轉型為數據中台"},{"start":10601.661,"end":10620.208,"text":"要結合深圳市AI來技術優化既有的在放預警及關戶書類的產生的一個功能但我想我們這部分我們會再做一個精進那以前是跟科技部跟那個科技部申請那個科技的一個計畫來支應的來建置的但我想這部分我們會再推廣會再升級"},{"start":10620.948,"end":10645.704,"text":"那這部分委員剛剛有關心的就是有沒有借階的我剛才說錯了,不是5倍,是4倍而已,只有4倍而已那那個要借階,因為這個升級版的借階是要跟衛福部跟勞動部來系統做借階那這部分我想我們會再做推廣,我們現在會再推廣出去我認為啦,你那個期程還是要訂出來立法院裡面,你來司法法制委員會你就知道"},{"start":10647.405,"end":10661.013,"text":"口水比鳥還要多但是你們該做的事情那這一些本席在這個地方特別要來呼籲你要是要繼續做好的東西你本來要做的你發現了那麼多一個弊端我們一直在講說要讓它去復歸這個社會可是我們又認為說要交給"},{"start":10665.769,"end":10686.925,"text":"關乎人以後實現的結果幾十年下來你會發現偏於主觀沒有一致的一個標準那既然有這麼好用的東西外國有先例嘛你們現在也有去做啊只做到四個地點數全國從北到南的之前有啦那個年底全國推廣啦因為現在齊省就是到年底全國推廣年底全國都要推進全國啦"},{"start":10687.205,"end":10706.738,"text":"我跟翁小玲兩個教委都跟你支持 好不好 你本來就該做的你看他唱到一直頂頭 你知道嗎第二個我要繼續來就教的就是說你看監所人員的權益的部分一直講 我說這應該給人家啦尤其是深夜的一個家籍"},{"start":10709.465,"end":10735.557,"text":"大家都同意,司法法治委員會都同意可是你送到行政院的不報院的部分你們變成要求補正資料,我要請問部長跟署長的啦這個署長你來講好了,你到底這是什麼理由,你要補正什麼一個很好,大家都幫你支持,支持到你還要什麼整頁都不會出來這也很奇怪,又再漏血了,來請說明謝謝委員的關心,這個從去年的五月我們就報行政院的人事行政總署"},{"start":10736.257,"end":10743.443,"text":"他十月有跟我們回文他說就那個等級的內容的那個敘述的話希望說我們更清楚一點"},{"start":10745.489,"end":10770.106,"text":"對 他覺得是說我們的分級介護跟金額的差距的話需要說我們再研議甚至我親自去跟蘇任市長都有跟他報告說明我想蘇任市長他基本上是很支持我們的只要我們給他肯定的這樣的一個說明的話他應該會支持我們什麼時候這個案子可以"},{"start":10771.466,"end":10785.559,"text":"我替你協調好不好 草野政黨全部都幫你們爭取你不這樣 你像譬如說 我去把那個資料看一下你桃園地區 你監守的人一直跑 離開"},{"start":10789.215,"end":10803.057,"text":"你就桃園 你離開22個 掉入0台南21個 處理21個 去買到7個台北 處理14個 去買到6個這個都不是正常的流動我看這個都是人力的失血"},{"start":10804.182,"end":10810.931,"text":"所以這個部分喔 署長你這樣不行不可以我們大家在跟你鬥雞雞這個你們要講啦 你們要講啦立法院有給你支持的好 謝謝大家沒有爭議嘛 好不好好 謝謝到底是說 他們教你講實話 你也要做一下說這些人離職"},{"start":10821.403,"end":10841.034,"text":"調動你們系統性做一個分析 到底是工作壓力太大 還是錢太多 還是說你們的升遷制度出問題你們今天都沒什麼做到啦 這個要加油好不好那另外 講了好多次了啦 書記官的問題啦我剛剛在這個我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":10842.652,"end":10857.416,"text":"講了好多次 越說越嚴重沒聽到我覺得書記官的問題越說越嚴重那這怎麼辦你說除了法官跟檢察官人力施警以外我看現在最麻煩的就是這個書記官我看今年這個你看那個新北地院書記官報道率說2%而已"},{"start":10860.12,"end":10883.106,"text":"缺額71個,來兩個台灣現在各個地檢署執行的案件數量我看越來越可怕你光新北、台中、桃園地檢署每天處理的說300間,說要300間我看這個人這樣跑沒有辦法進來這個都是基層的這種人力,這都是一個崩潰的警訊"},{"start":10885.827,"end":10907.805,"text":"我一直在講,一直在趕集齊考試制度當然也有一點問題啦有要去當考司法官的考律師的那就先來把你這個書記官先把你考一考,好像來練習一下還有平常書記官都有律師資格,他就會流失掉所以我的意思是說這個很麻煩啦,我認為薪水是不是太多"},{"start":10909.346,"end":10937.255,"text":"他那個的確的確因為我們那個最近我們也非常謝謝行政院以及主計總署跟人總有支持那個紀錄會的調整那當我們爭取了28年終於這一次有提到到6年 主席你應該要謝謝我們立法委員們啊 大家都很支持啊你說檢察官的助理不用客氣我反正我沒有 不然都一直沒通過 不好意思插話你給我看他在幫我倒貢你給我看 結果我們落機時你就好 但是謝謝兩位稍微都對我們那個書記官跟那個我們線索的同仁的"},{"start":10939.638,"end":10957.37,"text":"這些待遇的調整我們除了吵架以外我們還真的會做事支持你們同事合作啦 再謝謝業務包括本地人要去集齊啊你有一些地方你該去我們該跟你支持的是一定跟你支持啊該吵架的我們另外來吵啊對不對像這一些講了那麼久的還是要去做突破"},{"start":10958.231,"end":10984.081,"text":"你看那個案子一直在那裡堆積如果說去看那個因為委員都有去看過那個書記官他那個那個資訊課還有那個整個卷那個堆得像萬里長城一樣我跟你說這我都不想跟你聽你知道嗎我們這都說到瘋了啦我們雖然不知道這個狀況我們就是要解決問題啊我都認為你們那個薪水都還夠太低啦還要去做一個突破你像你這個要加薪對不對你要加多少而已1370"},{"start":10987.302,"end":10991.844,"text":"1370千幾塊我也當過書記官那時候我當書記官的時候是1000塊但是物價指數的話已經超過這個很多了的確是書記官這個工作忙碌是比以前是倍增的好幾倍的增加"},{"start":11005.311,"end":11032.061,"text":"這補充我們不要說理由我們想緩緩啦我們真的要給你支持啦不然這個會崩潰掉這個不行我們再來研究看怎麼樣這個不能開玩笑那你像譬如說我們現在用那個AI啊輔助系統啊去減輕他們的工作的一個量能啊這個也都不要留為我們這樣嘴巴在講啦這樣跟人家說說也沒意思啊你要趕快看你自己在做什麼因為不容易嘛在司法界裡面可以當到部長很大的容易但是該去做的"},{"start":11032.745,"end":11045.487,"text":"看在目前 書記官這個補分 案量太多 暴增 大家離職這個想辦法把它解決掉 是朝野 都給你支持 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員接下來請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席 我請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":11065.655,"end":11084.171,"text":"好 部長好剛才我們林沛翔委員也問了這一題就是因為這兩天在新聞媒體突然看到說我們的次長黃士傑次長在上班時間去參加一個新屋農會的活動這個活動因為應該跟我們法務部的業務毫無關係"},{"start":11091.337,"end":11104.322,"text":"但是同一時間呢因為現在媒體盛傳就是民進黨可能提名黃士傑去參選桃園市市長所以部長我想請問一下如果"},{"start":11108.059,"end":11115.568,"text":"黃次長真的有心去角逐桃園市市長在上班時間雖然你說他有請假這樣的一個活動合適嗎"},{"start":11123.937,"end":11150.288,"text":"因為如果未來他就是用市長的身份去參加跟我們法務部業務毫無關係的活動只是為了要為自己的競選暖身適合嗎你身為長官是不是可以勸他如果要選桃園市你就盡快的做出一個規劃不然你就趕快定一個請辭的時間以免外界來非議"},{"start":11152.137,"end":11167.808,"text":"跟委員報告的確他這個是有請假的他有請假下去那我想參加這個一個節慶的活動我想這個跟他的我們的市長業務完全沒關係嗎我想這是一個好事情我想是一個"},{"start":11168.889,"end":11190.827,"text":"那個獲得全國獎項的一個肯定優質到可跟你們保護部業務完全沒有關係啊我們保護部打詐不需要很繁忙嗎他不是公務的行程他自己請假的個人的一個行程所以是私人行程他是請休假去的私人休假所以私人休假我們都尊重他處理個人的他自己的行程我們都尊重"},{"start":11191.107,"end":11214.128,"text":"好 我覺得這個事情如果是偶一為之 那也就算了但是因為他現在盛傳他要去選桃園市我覺得對於所有的政治人物啊 如果你真的要去選桃園市的話這是他的自由 我們也予以尊重但是呢 我覺得就要趕快對外來做一個宣布我剛剛講 我們法務部打仗還是很重要 還有這麼多的修法 好不好"},{"start":11217.791,"end":11236.756,"text":"好那接下來有一個修法呢事實上在上個會期我在司法法制委員會我們都很關心我們也有提案就是有關於特留份的修法那在我們討論的同時呢正好就出現了議員曹熙平過世然後他就出現這樣的一個問題"},{"start":11238.817,"end":11241.1,"text":"因為他想把財產留給這個在他過世之前一直在照顧他的一個我不曉得好像是他的乾兒子但是他就會受到這個特留份現在民法"},{"start":11257.678,"end":11280.483,"text":"所受的限制那在我們在上個會期一直請法務部趕快提出相關的修法那部長當時也說今年年初就啟動修法其實時間過得好快喔現在就三月了已經年初已經快要到三月底之前應該算年初了吧所以部長這個修法的時程是不是要加快"},{"start":11282.443,"end":11307.532,"text":"的確我們現在已經啟動修法的一個程序因為我們那個去年我跟委員我報告過就是我們在去年委託研究案在去年底有出來了那我們並同105年的當時有一個修法的一個草案我們來檢視那我們也進行了民法繼承篇的一個研修的一個會議了已經啟動了那我想大概那我請問一下因為時間關係因為你們除了特留份之外你們還對遺囑有這部分有"},{"start":11309.793,"end":11332.336,"text":"那遺囑的方向是什麼因為我看到有甚是因為我們過去都很傳統遺囑一定要手寫嘛其中一個必要條件要手寫要把它科技化我想請部長好可以就是這個部分因為我覺得很多民眾會關心到用得到你們現在有關遺囑的修正你們的方向具體化可不可以說一下"},{"start":11334.477,"end":11355.358,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢目前的我們的計程片研究小組其實是會按照議題的輕重環節剛剛委員您有提到的特留份的部分是我們目前第一緊要的包括它的配套遺囑有部分會是在第二階段第二階段的部分其實我們會縱觀包括我們去年底有委託一個研究報告的內容"},{"start":11355.838,"end":11369.505,"text":"跟我們之前的草案不過整個大方向是希望能夠朝向自住遺囑能夠更便利更便民那以及它有關相關的保管的規定可以讓它真正的可以你講得不夠具體耶那因為對阿講得不夠具體嘛講了半天然後我是請教就是說我們遺囑現在的形式必須要用手寫嘛"},{"start":11378.729,"end":11395.035,"text":"就是這個其實有點落後那但是問題就是說你要符合現在的科技別說好像你們方向未來什麼錄音錄影的方式也都可以它的形式不單純只是用手寫的形式但是你錄音錄影"},{"start":11395.575,"end":11412.288,"text":"可能現在因為AI又這麼盛行那又會面臨到這種AI的變造會不會增加以後大家爭議主啊這種議主的官司更多所以這部分我就想請既然我們問到了民法有關議主的修正"},{"start":11415.605,"end":11440.214,"text":"這部分我們會在廣泛的收集意見因為這個意見其實包括委員您所關心的部分在研究報告跟我們之前105年的草案其實方向也不太一樣那在105年審查的時候其實也有委員指教過說像自訴遺囑也見到有些身心障礙人士他可能是手寫字不方便是有的沒辦法該指引的部分我們都會把這些議題都融合在一起之後做全盤研議那我具體問"},{"start":11442.696,"end":11452.454,"text":"耽誤後面的委員時間 我具體問 未來齁因為你們說電腦打字 未來可以錄音錄影 未來可不可以 你們是不是這個方向"},{"start":11458.968,"end":11482.576,"text":"報告主席因為我們的草案的內容其實目前還沒有文字因為我們有一百零五年的版本可是因為我們的包括我們的研究計畫內容其實不同好 因為我真的不耽誤時間第一個 退留份的部分我覺得你加速趕快先送過來好不好 什麼時候可以送到立法院這部分還要預告還要行政的審查我們會把這個數七成"},{"start":11484.156,"end":11511.456,"text":"把它加快因為看起來這個會期我們因為就是為加速所以我們希望又有投鉤的處理啦先特留份先處理對 特留份第一階段先處理先討論出來有結論馬上送行政我們要預告嘛然後預告我們要送行政院然後加速快速審查因為如果說法條多的話就會速度會變慢如果說僅就特留份那相關的條那你們就拼這個會期先送好嗎那這部分我們隨時會跟那個市委會來做一個報告好謝謝"},{"start":11514.161,"end":11519.682,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請林一錦委員發言謝主席 有請鄭部長"},{"start":11538.789,"end":11556.241,"text":"部長早 今天本席想要跟您討論轉型正義的這個議題法務部現在轄管的有兩處不宜遺址一個就是法務部矯正署的這個新電介製所還有太原監獄 那禮儀呢我們其實都要完成文化部不宜遺址的標示作業"},{"start":11557.302,"end":11572.549,"text":"不過他的前身作為國防部台灣軍人監獄的新店介製所他有先做了一些線上環境的導覽這點在轉型正義的工程上其實值得肯定的"},{"start":11573.229,"end":11595.097,"text":"那我首先想請教的是已經沒有一共的這個太原改訓監獄是否有規劃就是像這個軍人監獄這個新建制所感冠會同文化部來進行所謂的線上環境這個導覽的建制有沒有這樣的演繹的這個計畫"},{"start":11597.731,"end":11605.436,"text":"這部分我們在了解 目前我們倒是還沒有但是有的這是不亦已止這部分當然我們會再重視委員關係的我們會來了解那因為針對這個實體的空間當然我們不方便開放就是說這個隨進隨出參觀的部分所以部長我是替你想就是說我們怎麼讓民眾進行歷史補課"},{"start":11623.908,"end":11650.245,"text":"所以因為新店跟太原這兩處都關押過政治犯所以譬如說如果說可以開放給團體這個定時定點的導覽這個不曉得部長認為可行嗎因為這兩個監所現在都使用中我想這個的確有歷史上的意義如果開放給外界那我想這個要有一個程序那程序這部分申請是不是請那個署長來回答好 OK"},{"start":11653.633,"end":11668.786,"text":"委員好 這個根據我們監獄信用法裡面這個外界來參觀是有規定的只要他提前提示申請在我們上班時間內對不對 不要有未成年未成年就是要有相當的關乎人的同意等等那其他的話只要他配我們的規定我們都同意他來參觀的"},{"start":11669.747,"end":11684.815,"text":"OK 好 好就是演繹一套啦因為這是牽涉到不宜移植的這個參觀這個參觀是跟一般的參觀監所是不一樣的意義喔好 那另外想請教的是說這個按照促轉條例第十一條之二"},{"start":11685.675,"end":11708.457,"text":"法務部於促轉會解散後要直施平復司法不法行政不法跟識別及處置加害者的事項但是我們就促轉條例第六條第一項第六條之一還有關平復行政不法這個內容目前只有處理到哪裡就是侵害人民生命"},{"start":11709.318,"end":11713.362,"text":"人身自由跟剝奪其財產所有權的處分跟事實行為就對於人民其他憲法上的基本權這個沒有進一步的平復行政不法的作為所以之前我們辦公室有所知向法務部請求說明"},{"start":11727.956,"end":11747.513,"text":"那法務部我覺得你們雖主責平復行政不法這個認定可是你們卻沒有正面回復說是否該修促轉條例的與權利回復條例那針對其他就是憲法上基本權受行政權侵害的這個太陽"},{"start":11748.393,"end":11775.348,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎就例如說我們像海外黑名單像我泡泡你這邊有寫像海外黑名單居住遷徙自由啊不法監聽這是牽涉到秘密通訊自由或書禁報禁牽涉到言論跟出版自由中斷人民升學日稱教授教權等等可是這些都沒有獲得法務部行政不法的平反所以不曉得請部長怎麼看就這些是不是我剛提的這些是不是也是行政不法"},{"start":11776.638,"end":11787.484,"text":"這部分我是不是請法治司司長因為他是專責的一個主管司是我想他可以針對委員的關心的問題來做一個回應好那司長"},{"start":11788.525,"end":11814.844,"text":"委員好我想我簡單的跟委員回覆一下那其實陳如委員講的我們辦理這個貧富行政不法的部分也是依照這三個類型包括生命跟人身自由還有財產的剝奪的部分那其實我們是執行這些貧富的審查那我們就依照這個法律來處理那陳如剛才委員講的這些那我們認為說這個可能也是涉及到這些所謂的真正的一個行政不法的部分但是礙於這個現在法律上面這個規定"},{"start":11815.905,"end":11842.158,"text":"那我們目前在處理上面就是只有這三種類型那至於是不是要修法的部分我想這個部分因為我們不是主管這個法規的主管機關那這個是行政院人權署人權及行政一處的這個主管機關那我想可能或許有機會的話我們會跟去反映這個問題但是目前為止的話我們還是依照只有這三個類型來做行政評判那以上跟委員說明"},{"start":11843.078,"end":11848.842,"text":"因為現行法令確實是只對剛剛提的這三樣那可是我是覺得這個態樣其實相當多他應該 就部長你也認為嘛他也是屬於行政不法的一個態樣所以應該是要全面性的來做平反好 那我想就是我剛剛提的這個生命人身自由跟財產所有權這個以外的這個憲法上基本的權利在現行的這個平復行政不法確實沒有辦法獲得平復所以我覺得若不是透過修法"},{"start":11871.556,"end":11892.264,"text":"那就是要透過其他的方式那修法當然是一個最直接的方式那如果說這些權力如果在威權統治時代沒有受到不法侵害那我覺得我們法務部其實是有責任來考量它的平復的方式那所以就如同我簡報這個論文"},{"start":11893.744,"end":11910.473,"text":"這個論文是一個研究行政不法的論文他的結語有顯到他說必須透過修法的明定更多行政不法的態樣那使這個制度足以包容歷史上的多樣且複雜的受害情境部長你就這句話這句話你同意齁"},{"start":11911.82,"end":11930.844,"text":"我們在這個同意那個委員的一個高見是好那最後啦還是希望法務部內部加強這個公務人員的轉行正義教育訓練因為之前行政院頒獎我們只有調查局有得獎那其他單位一起加油好嗎謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝林委員好那接下來我們有請鄭正前委員"},{"start":11940.888,"end":11952.549,"text":"郑正前委员郑正前委员不在谢一凤委员谢一凤委员谢一凤委员不在苏清泉委员苏清泉委员"},{"start":11954.191,"end":11980.19,"text":"蘇星泉委員蘇星泉委員不在傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員"},{"start":11981.581,"end":12000.622,"text":"洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在好 那今天我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候所要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速地送交個別委員以及本會"},{"start":12004.519,"end":12020.723,"text":"蔡其昌委員 徐宇珍委員 傅坤琦委員都有提書面質詢就列入記錄並刊登公報也請相關機關要以書面答覆本日的會議就進行到此結束明天上午九點鐘我們就繼續開會現在就休息 謝謝大家"},{"start":12028.612,"end":12052.25,"text":"好的開始今天沒有抽12點這是唯一一次沒有抽12點所以稍微不是很有效率不是是今天大家覺得還好沒有什麼太多的議題希望這個會期我們能夠積極的通過一些大家關心的法案然後朝野都有共識的法案我們也會這裡會積極加緊推動"},{"start":12054.867,"end":12063.882,"text":"小額貪污的那個我們一定會推喔所以你們真的要加速繳出喔因為這是蠻多委員都會關心的然後休眠法 特留份"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}