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杨茜茜"},{"start":652.022,"end":653.695,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1160.503,"end":1163.469,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1634.241,"end":1635.961,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1674.889,"end":1675.481,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1933.39,"end":1939.188,"text":"我們現在開會,這場公聽會為了面對境外敵對勢力"},{"start":1940.697,"end":1965.775,"text":"有各種統案滲透日趨嚴重那現行的國安法是否足以因應那現行法有關發起資助主持等需要證明意圖危害國家安全或社會安定的主觀構成要件是否妥適現行法對於類如現役軍人等對境外勢力效忠或一般人民參與外國籍"},{"start":1968.237,"end":1995.989,"text":"境外敵對勢力的犯罪組織行為並無明規定禁止是否為法律漏洞等議題我們今天特別舉辦這場公聽會來聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的意見並列入立法院公報紀錄中作為國家安全法修法時的討論的參考謝謝那首先我介紹今天的專家學者跟出席委員"},{"start":1997.209,"end":2023.886,"text":"跟政府機關的代表今天很感謝各位現在已經到場的專家學者有台北國立台北大學法律系教授馮聖彥教授 謝謝接下來是國立政治大學法學教授楊雲樺教授 謝謝接下來東吳大學法學副教授洪兆成教授 謝謝"},{"start":2026.5,"end":2053.357,"text":"中央警察大學國進系教授王智慎教授,謝謝。採訪法人民主文教基金會董事長,龜洪誠董事長,謝謝。剛剛到席的,我們開南大學法律系教授,蔣桂美教授也來到現場,謝謝你,謝謝。那我先宣告一下,"},{"start":2055.114,"end":2072.325,"text":"等一下的程序感謝各位教授的出席也感謝各位教授等一下可以給我們意見我們先會請所有的專家學生發言然後以簽到順序為原則每位發言時間8分鐘"},{"start":2075.599,"end":2095.763,"text":"本會委員要發言的請到主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言之後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘最後再跟與會機關代表說明發言台正前方是燈號倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲結束前兩分鐘會按鈴兩聲啊結束會按鈴兩聲對不起"},{"start":2101.758,"end":2127.757,"text":"現在請部會報告來我介紹一下今天與會的部會今天與會的部會包含內政部警政署副署長李文章副署長我們陸委會法政處副署長董玉雲副署長我們國安局陳副署長還有我們法務部主任檢察官白主任檢察官"},{"start":2129.326,"end":2147.146,"text":"還有司法院刑事廳吳元耀法官還有國家資通安全研究院副主任許世章副主任還有一個很重要就是速發部的法治處的處長張學文處長"},{"start":2151.987,"end":2168.61,"text":"大概就以上這樣子,請問有沒有人要提出會議的意見?如果沒有的話,我們就趕快開始讓我們第一位我們先請部會來報告,我們先請警政署報告,請自己掌握時間,我們盡量在三分鐘以內,謝謝"},{"start":2178.757,"end":2204.402,"text":"主席各位委員專家學者女士先生本次國家安全法修法公聽會本部應要列席深感榮幸今天公聽會所列的討論提綱請將本部的意見簡單說明如下敬請各位先進指導有關提綱五其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭言論如何處置的部分"},{"start":2205.422,"end":2221.459,"text":"公民與政治權利國際公約第20條第一項規定任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應以法律禁止之那目前國外的相關處罰的權利大概有拉脫維亞刑法第77條規定的煽動戰爭罪"},{"start":2225.407,"end":2238.098,"text":"以及芬蘭刑法第十二章第二段規定的這個使芬蘭陷入戰爭或者稱為軍事行動目標為目的而公開散布"},{"start":2239.212,"end":2264.294,"text":"等等的陳述行為要依煽動戰爭罪來判處一年以上十年以下的有期徒刑另外在提綱六的部分因應境外勢力散佈假訊息危害國家安全的處置部分在我國的法律規定下國家安全目前是要確保國家生存跟領土的完整"},{"start":2265.075,"end":2287.95,"text":"主權獨立以及社會安定不受內外的威脅的一個狀態維持國家的正常運作那針對境外勢力呢透過散布假訊息進行認知作戰的部分那大概可以透過法律行政跟全民防護啊三重機制來進行處理那在法律的部分呢當然是規範還有處罰追溯這些問題那"},{"start":2292.253,"end":2309.188,"text":"遍布在整個國家不同的領域分別適用不同的法律比如講在境外敵對勢力的這個指託委託或資助的部分我們會用反滲透法在選舉的部分我們要用公職人員選罷法來做處理"},{"start":2311.61,"end":2337.083,"text":"第二個是行政處理跟計時的一個防禦那這裡面包括計時澄清的措施媒體治管跟共管還有協力平台的一個檢舉那第三個是全民防衛還有公眾的參與包括設置這個檢舉的管道以及媒體變毒的一個教育然後讓媒體不會做傳播不親信而且甚至能夠來做檢舉"},{"start":2338.504,"end":2359.218,"text":"那以上大概是我們目前國家針對這個國家安全法相關的一個做法那今天我們委員會有特別召集請各位專家學者來那我們希望專家學者能夠給我們建言作為未來執法修法的一個依據以上"},{"start":2375.306,"end":2394.251,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位老師 各機關代表陸委會承蒙立法院邀請針對國安法報告本會的意見 甚感榮幸以下是本會的說明首先本會要提出目前台灣的處境來凸顯出為何要訂定"},{"start":2395.231,"end":2413.607,"text":"為何要補強國家安全法的相關的法制的缺陷首先是中共長期對我統戰滲透確實這個部分總統去年也提出五大國安的統戰威脅和17項的因應策略這方面都是凸顯實務上面對中共統戰威脅急需補強的各個面向"},{"start":2414.267,"end":2439.354,"text":"第二個部分是共諜案件有層出不窮按照國安局的統計中共滲透我們的五大管道分別是黑道幫派、地下錢莊、掩護的公司、公廟團體以及民間社團相關的案件也是層出不窮並且幾乎是成倍數的成長所以顯示出這個共諜在台灣的活躍的程度急需在立法方面進一步予以歸管"},{"start":2440.234,"end":2459.322,"text":"防治那政府雖然在109年有完成相關國安武法的修正但實務上在查辦案件的時候仍然面對法治有某些的缺陷以至於沒有辦法完整的去把這些犯罪的行為進一步去處理所以我們需要去"},{"start":2460.303,"end":2475.157,"text":"補強法制相關方面的漏洞那這一次行政院法的草案呢就是行政院版的草案就目的在於接軌國際公約就是補強法制漏洞並且強化誠摯的力道保障我們數位網路科技方面的主權"},{"start":2476.178,"end":2496.406,"text":"譬如說現行法對於發展組織雖然有處罰但是對於參與組織是沒有明文的規範那因此我們對於這種進一步要進入違法行為的這個沒有辦法提早的予以防範切斷它的這個違法行為的前進所以現在就是在參與組織方面已經有一個"},{"start":2499.427,"end":2521.656,"text":"草案的部分予以明文的規範那另外呢現在國安的威脅其實不是局限在實體邊界上面的領域除了數位技術以及社群媒體還有網路的這種交互的作用的產生那個網路方面的民主防衛的機制急需補強因此對於鼓吹戰爭的言論禁止以武力禁止以武力鼓吹"},{"start":2526.977,"end":2540.788,"text":"各個傷害台灣的這些言論都必須要以進一步以法律來禁止最後我要提到結語的部分對於中共對我們台灣複合式的壓迫與灰色地帶的侵擾"},{"start":2541.936,"end":2560.516,"text":"維護台灣安全已經不是單一個機關的權責都必須要全體國人以及政府各部會跨機關的合作來予以防堵那今天要討論的國家安全法的修正草案的補強就是我們加強國家安全防範的第一道的關卡以上 謝謝"},{"start":2562.793,"end":2579.652,"text":"好謝謝陸委會的報告那其他單位報告也請各位自行參閱並刊登公報接著我們就依照順序請專家學者發言第一位我們請台北大學法律系教授馮聖彥教授謝謝"},{"start":2588.327,"end":2614.274,"text":"主席好,各位先生、各位老師大家好,我是台北大學法律師一鋒聖顏今天很榮幸的來受邀來談一下這場公聽會那我就今天就討論提綱的部分有六個那我會把我的重點放在一到四這個部分,然後五到六的部分我簡單的陳述一下我的想法那針對第一個討論提綱第一個問題關於所謂的面對境外敵對勢力然後現行國安法是不是足以應對這件事情那我想這可以分成兩個層次來討論"},{"start":2615.914,"end":2638.055,"text":"那第一個層次呢,是涉及到立法上面,尤其是法治上面的漏洞的問題那也是今天的主軸那第二個層次呢,其實是司法如何適用法律的問題因為司法在適用法律的時候,當然也有可能改變了原本的立法者的原意或者是所有原本的立法框架當下呢,所沒有的這樣一個限制那這些都會影響到說國安法呢,現行的國安法到底是不是足以應對這些"},{"start":2639.369,"end":2661.473,"text":"境外敵對勢力的滲透這樣相關的行為那關於第二個問題有關於發展組織這個部分是不是要把這個發展組織的在我們現行國安法第七條有限制來說你必須要是意圖危害國家安全或社會安定這樣一個主觀要件是否妥適呢?我先講結論結論上面我的立場是認為說這樣一個主觀構成要件的限制其實是不妥當的"},{"start":2662.048,"end":2683.708,"text":"那發展組織的這樣的行為呢 依照我們的實務見解呢其實呢 它是為了境外敵對勢力 然後去做一個招募人力的行為所以它基本上是擴充境外勢力的這樣一個人力的網絡資源這樣的行為它本質上面呢 其實是一個抽象危險犯這樣的犯罪那在實務上面遇到的困難呢 其實是說呢 法院其實很害怕說呢 把這個所謂的"},{"start":2684.227,"end":2708.84,"text":"發展組織的這樣行為跟所謂的中性的這樣一個政治的這樣主張這樣政治行為呢沒有辦法去做一個明確的區隔然後會影響到人民的這樣一個主張政治權利的這樣一個基本權利那我覺得這件事情呢自己當然也是一個刑事法學者而言非常重要的一個問題啦那我覺得可以現行法底下呢其實呢我們可以看到第二條連結到第七條國安法的第二條連結到第七條他有嘗試去做這樣的限縮"},{"start":2709.639,"end":2738.039,"text":"避免把這個過度去侵害人民的這樣一個政治表意的表現這樣的行為他怎麼限縮呢?他其實在客觀構成要件上面就已經有一個要件這叫做未境外敵對勢力而去發展組織那這個未境外敵對勢力這件事情其實我覺得就是一個很重要的地方就是他明確去區隔說什麼是法律所允許的這樣一個政治表意行為什麼是法所不允許的這樣一個發展組織的行為所以我覺得重點應該是在於說"},{"start":2738.78,"end":2742.273,"text":"既然我們針對發展組織這樣的招募或是吸收行為有可能會"},{"start":2742.932,"end":2772.073,"text":"在大部分的案件當中跟所謂的中性的行為 正式行為會混淆那為了境外勢力是不是為了境外勢力而去做相關的行為這件事情呢我把它稱之為所謂的組織慣例性這件事情其實是顯得相當相當重要那有沒有必要呢在這個客觀的要件的線索之外呢在主觀的構成要件部分呢再加上一個意圖危害國家安全或社會安定我個人是認為是反對的意見首先遇到的問題就是說目前實務上面如同各位委員所提出來的草案裡面所提到的"},{"start":2772.533,"end":2796.014,"text":"其實會有所謂的證據證明上面的困難如果說一個行為呢他是為了一個境外敵對勢力然後去發展組織在客觀上面也已經有危害國家安全的這樣的潛力那基本上他就具有所謂的基本上就有刑事的可發性那為什麼呢他在這樣一個具有可發性的行為而且也可以跟所謂的中心的政治行為去做取革的前提之下我們還要再去做一個額外的主觀要件上面的限制"},{"start":2796.434,"end":2802.977,"text":"在我看來這種雙重限制,其實是把國安法第二條連接到第七條這樣犯人組織行為,把它砍斷手腳那會導致說這個實務上面沒有辦法針對這個現實上面有危害到國家安全這樣的行為,對他來講來處罰"},{"start":2812.984,"end":2841.11,"text":"那我的另外學理上面的理由除了實務上面的證明困難之外呢還有一個問題就是我們之所以在立法的法條當中呢規範有意圖這樣一個特殊的主觀不法要素其實主要的目的是在於說它也可以彰顯出它的行為不法內涵的特質就像竊盜罪你單純的拿走別人的東西沒有經過他人的同意這當然還不夠用竊盜罪來加以處罰還是必須要主觀上面把它拒為己有這樣意思那這種竊盜罪的不法所謂意圖它其實是彰顯了這一種竊盜罪的不法的行為本質"},{"start":2841.91,"end":2856.564,"text":"可是在我們現在的國安法的第二條連接到第七條這個發展組織的行為如果說他客觀上面就已經是為了境外敵對勢力去發展組織了那他的行為不發內涵就已經完全的評價出來了我們沒有需要再用一個意圖然後再去彰顯出他的不發內涵"},{"start":2858.885,"end":2879.511,"text":"增加意圖這樣的限制反而是過度限縮到可怕範圍所以結論上面我認為意圖危害國家安全或社會的利益把它刪除那刪除之後行政院的版本所提出來的草案其實是要加上一個事性犯的構成要件要素那我自己甚至是比較激進一點我認為說增加這樣的事性犯的構成要件要素其實也是不必要的因為你只要是為了"},{"start":2880.305,"end":2899.731,"text":"境外敵對勢力然後去做這樣的招募行為基本上就已經可以加以處罰了這是我的立場那關於發展組織的部分那在第三個呢關於參與組織的行為呢現行法底下呢其實是沒有處罰是不是有一個處罰漏洞結論上面我也認為說這是一個很明顯的處罰漏洞為什麼呢因為為什麼要處罰這樣一個相關的這樣一個資助建立組織或是參與組織發展組織這樣的行為呢原因就在於說"},{"start":2905.869,"end":2918.395,"text":"這種境外敵對勢力還有他所連接到的這種人的網絡這種組織的網絡其實本身存續在那邊就已經是會對於我們的國家安全造成一定的抽象危險性的損害那這也是當初我們可以處罰這種相關行為的理由"},{"start":2919.116,"end":2937.126,"text":"結果我們竟然只有處罰所謂的受謀或是一些領導組織的行為還有資助組織的行為但是卻沒有參加對於組織存續而言本身最重要就是要有人加入所以針對參與組織的部分竟然沒有處罰我覺得這是一個沒有辦法容忍的處罰漏洞那下一個問題當然才是說如果我們把參與組織的行為歸納進去的話那會有什麼樣的"},{"start":2942.265,"end":2954.849,"text":"進一步要怎麼樣去解釋說這個什麼叫參與組織的行為呢基本上你大概要有一個加入行為是沒有問題的然後仿照那個組織犯罪防制條例目前的現行的實務見解他其實對於組織犯罪組織這樣一個組織的結構本身的要求"},{"start":2958.089,"end":2983.753,"text":"其實呢我覺得是相對而言是比較寬鬆的那這個寬鬆也是有正當理由的那是因為我們如果去看國家安全的相關的案件你都會知道說這種組織網絡表面上面它不可能會有一個相當固定的階級性的這種形式的正式的這種組織化結構他們都是組織裡面就是有一群人他們為了一個某種共同的目標然後就開始一對一的網絡這樣去拉人所以這裡的組織的理解我覺得應該要把它放寬去理解只要你是為了要"},{"start":2984.757,"end":3008.124,"text":"為境外敵對勢力、危害國家安全去做這樣一個參與組織的行為那個組織並不會要求說一定要有正式的網絡結構等等這樣就可以構成參與組織這是組織結構的部分可是我有問題的地方是在於說這樣一個參與組織的行為到底要不要要求說你只是加入就好了嗎?還是加入之後你什麼事情都可以不用做?這是一種可能的思考方向"},{"start":3008.744,"end":3033.22,"text":"還是要仿照德國的立法例說,加入之後你還是要做某些貢獻只是說這個貢獻不需要這麼的重要而已我個人覺得說,如果我們認為說你有對於這種參與組織抽象危險犯這樣過度前置處罰的疑慮的話我們的確可以要求說你在參與組織之後要提出一些貢獻但是這個貢獻當然也不只是你要之後要去招募人才或是做一些資助行為當然也包括為了維持這個組織運作"},{"start":3034.421,"end":3047.926,"text":"所必要的一些例如說擬定犯罪計畫啦或是做一些日常的營運的這種生活營運的這種行為我覺得都可以把它算是這裡所說的參與組織的行為那因為時間的關係呢我針對第五跟第六呢我就簡單的說明一下"},{"start":3048.867,"end":3066.516,"text":"針對鼓吹戰爭言論要如何處罰這個問題,我覺得重點其實不是會過度去限制言論自由因為言論自由我行使的武林是有界限的我覺得重點應該要把它擺在說,到底這種鼓吹戰爭言論行為是不是會現實上面會不會危害到國家安全這件事情,我覺得這是比較重要的那針對第六個問題"},{"start":3069.278,"end":3093.921,"text":"抱歉我打斷一下,你等一下可以繼續講沒關係,謝謝不要趕時間,你可以繼續講沒關係,把他講完從第五個那位開始在講五催戰爭言論這個部分,我覺得言論自由並沒有辦法無限上綱大家都知道他也是作為基本權一環,所以他必須要跟其他重要的基本權去做一個比例院子上面的審查跟權衡"},{"start":3094.481,"end":3119.032,"text":"所以我認為說關鍵其實就在於說我們在立法上面要如何設計出來一種構成要件然後這種構成要件其實是可以兼顧人民的言論自由的基本權還有兼顧國家安全所以你一昧的說鼓吹言論戰爭言論就絕對不可以加以處罰我覺得這是美於現實所以另外只是說我們在構成要件上面如何是透過危險犯的方式因為終究是危害國家安全我們不可能等到"},{"start":3119.585,"end":3143.262,"text":"國家安全具體被危害才加以處罰相關的行為,那就太晚了所以抽下危險犯或是私刑犯的立法的方向,我覺得是針對鼓吹戰爭言論,如果我們想要用刑事處罰的話,是可以考慮的方向針對第六個提綱的問題,為境外敵對勢力散布假訊息,到底這件事情要如何來處理目前行政院版的草案是用行政法的方式"},{"start":3144.502,"end":3158.721,"text":"我覺得看了剛才各位所提出來的資料之後,我開始思考是說其實現行法底下,雖然我國沒有刑事法制裡面,並沒有完全針對廣義或是普遍性、一般性的散佈假訊息來處罰"},{"start":3160.803,"end":3184.549,"text":"而是針對例如說商業的不實的假訊息,或是關於軍事上面不實的假訊息來分別處罰所以針對假訊息處罰這件事情,在我國底下其實可以用一些既有的規定來加以處罰現在問題只是說,這樣會不會有掛一路亂的問題會不會說針對國家安全的這個部分,會不會沒有辦法去使用這種不實商業言論或是不實軍事言論,就可以完全涵蓋這是我覺得是要思考這個問題"},{"start":3186.926,"end":3200.679,"text":"那我會覺得說,如果說你是一個已經加入組織的人,就是將來如果參與組織這樣行為真的被處罰的話,那他在參與組織這個過程當中去散布這種假訊息,那即便假訊息沒有構成要件可以使用,那當然還是可以透過參與組織行為來處罰,這是比較沒有問題的。"},{"start":3203.288,"end":3224.669,"text":"比較有問題呢,其實是在於非參與組織者的這個部分,就是他畢竟不是組織的成員,但是他就是散布這種假訊息那這個部分呢,我是覺得是可以考慮進去,就是創生一個跟國家安全有關係的一個普遍性的、一般性的這樣一個散布假訊息的這樣的刑事處罰、這樣規定我想待會楊昀華老師也會針對這個部分,再去做一個比較法上面的深入分析,我這邊就不多說"},{"start":3225.717,"end":3236.847,"text":"那最後我想要分享一個是關於草案當中的中間人這個問題就是現在現行法的國安法底下其實沒有處罰中間人但是在行政院提出來的八條之一,它其實有怪犯中間人這樣"},{"start":3237.935,"end":3260.161,"text":"其實這個中間人就是受到境外敵對勢力的委託然後他去指示或是委託然後他自己本身沒有去做這樣一個發展組織的招募行為他只是再去再進行一次的委託所以從刑法學理上面來看的話看起來如果沒有這個處罰中間人規定我們就只能夠回到刑法總則裡面的關於共犯的這個規定來處理就是他本身上就是一種教唆他人去發展組織的這樣行為可是"},{"start":3261.322,"end":3285.469,"text":"這樣規定的會受限於刑法上面關於共犯的限制從屬性的這樣一個限制所以當被教授者如果他沒有去興起一個犯罪決議去做發展組織行為的話那這個說是他或是指示他再去發展組織的這個中間人就沒有辦法處罰所以我覺得這部分把教授他人去發展組織的行為把它正犯化也是直接把這種中間人當作是一個正犯來處理我覺得是可行的方向只是說要考慮的是說呢"},{"start":3286.205,"end":3311.746,"text":"這種中間人他本質上面還是一個教唆犯那他在刑度上面有沒有必要呢因為草案當中是把刑度跟一個發展組織的這個被唆使者來同等處罰我覺得在刑度上面是可以考慮不過如果我們認為說反正教唆犯在我國憲刑法底下也是跟正犯相同處罰的話那這個問題可能就被這個疑慮可能就比較會被消遣這樣子那以上是我的一些想法謝謝各位先進好謝謝謝謝馮聖彥教授謝謝謝謝你寶貴的意見"},{"start":3317.282,"end":3340.022,"text":"接下來我們請楊雲樺教授來發言時間一樣8分鐘,但是沒有講完你可以繼續發表你的寶貴意見,謝謝主席各位先進,大家好我想底下我就按照今天的討論提綱,提出一點個人的建議或者看法"},{"start":3340.828,"end":3365.122,"text":"首先第一個當然就是回到一個基本問題我國現行的國安法制是否周延或者可以應對我們今天面臨的各種狀況關於這個問題我想我先從德國的歷史經驗還有戰後他的態度做一個簡單的分析我們都知道威馬憲法時期就是二戰以前的威馬當時被號稱是"},{"start":3368.486,"end":3394.163,"text":"全世界大概最先進最進步的一部憲法可是威馬憲法沒有辦法阻止納粹的上台因為納粹並不是用暴力的方式奪取政權他就是用民主的方式所以簡單來講納粹是熟練的運用民主程序甚至是基本權保障的法治程序逐步奪權所以最後在檢討的時候"},{"start":3399.147,"end":3421.105,"text":"多數人都認為民主的寬容居然造成了自我毀滅的工具我舉一個大家都知道的納粹時期很有名的宣傳部長戈培爾的名言民主何其愚蠢民主最大的笑話就是提供敵人可以摧毀民主本身的手段"},{"start":3422.226,"end":3444.312,"text":"所以到了二戰結束以後,德國基本法在制憲的時候,制憲代表提出一個看法就是對我而言創造那些破壞民主的條件,絕對不屬於民主的概念所以我們一般談的民主是需要防衛的,是需要保護的,它不是價值中立的這種看法"},{"start":3446.393,"end":3451.972,"text":"戰後基本法時期逐步的成形而且成為一個穩定的思想"},{"start":3453.069,"end":3476.895,"text":"那在整個防衛性民主裡面呢,譬如說針對這些破壞民主、摧毀法治的這些情況呢,他很要求一個預防性的概念預防性的概念,也就是說不是要等到危險已經很明顯了甚至時害已經發生了,我們才動用法律來處罰,這個都已經太晚了,所以呢"},{"start":3477.615,"end":3484.319,"text":"整個國安的觀念要在一個具有預防性、全面性的思考之下"},{"start":3487.33,"end":3515.407,"text":"設計來形成那德國刑法裡面呢關於這個部分總共有七張規定相關的我們講的國安的這個內容第一張是破壞和平內亂民主法治國體第二張是叛國與外患第三張是針對外國第四張妨害憲法機關選舉跟表決第五張妨害國防第六張反抗國家權利"},{"start":3517.253,"end":3524.144,"text":"第七章防害公共秩序那我粗估了一下大概有將近50條的條文針對各種"},{"start":3527.776,"end":3549.766,"text":"可能危害國安、防害社會秩序的這種情況呢足以詳細的規定這是德國刑法非常明顯的相同的內容幾乎也可以在歐洲很多國家瑞士、奧地利、法國幾乎大致也都看得到所以呢我個人認為我們的這個國安法制"},{"start":3550.566,"end":3573.038,"text":"我個人想法目前都是處於一種補破往事的規範而且規範的很零散所以對於需要預防性、前瞻性、全面性的思考在這邊是欠缺的第二個問題是現行法規定要意圖危害國家安全或社會安定"},{"start":3574.018,"end":3595.599,"text":"加入這個要件是否妥適其實長久以來這個部分除了實務上證明的困難因為有這種意圖你除非被告自白嘛要不然你就是收到了扣押到了很明顯的一些書面證據但是我們都知道目前兩岸的情況要做到這些事情的確是困難度非常高"},{"start":3596.099,"end":3621.782,"text":"所以這種要件加進去了以後反而是讓有些有心人士得以脫罪也造成了實務機關要起訴甚至審判定罪非常大的一個困難意圖的這種規定方式通常只有在財產犯罪才有我們把它弄到國安的犯罪裡面嚴格限縮它的適用這個我覺得是非常不妥當的"},{"start":3622.162,"end":3642.235,"text":"所以我會贊成我們現在的修法草案把它改成所謂的適性犯也就是在客觀上足以發生這些危險或危害只要能證明的出來就夠了而不是倒過頭還要求行為人我們要證明他的這個意圖所以我贊同如草案般的修法"},{"start":3643.195,"end":3670.227,"text":"第三個議題是我們現在有些比如說軍職人員什麼對敵效忠還有一般人民參與了參加了可能危害國家安全的犯罪組織有沒有處罰漏洞我想這個以德國刑法為例的話德國刑法非常清楚的規定不管是前面所講的對敵宣誓效忠這個是刑法裡面的處罰"},{"start":3671.267,"end":3694.233,"text":"但是我們要注意到一點就是所謂這種效忠會帶來的不好的或者危險基本上是在比較那種高官 層級比較高的那至於如果是一個部隊裡的小兵他這樣子可能受了別人的誘惑煽動去對敵效忠 我想"},{"start":3696.394,"end":3714.121,"text":"如果只是個案性質,而且他的層級並不高,不見得都要用到刑法來處罰反而在這邊重要的是對他的紀律的要求,還有他的教育所以如果要把這個規定進來,似乎在構成要件上面要做一些限縮,也就是"},{"start":3714.961,"end":3731.328,"text":"有相當影響力的那種層級才需要處罰至於一般人民如果參與了單純的參與所謂的違害國安的犯罪組織德國刑法密密麻麻的規定這個都是處罰的"},{"start":3732.489,"end":3754.896,"text":"但是因為罪刑法定,所以我們在考慮上面可以把他參與的這種犯罪組織他主要是進行什麼犯罪譬如說他刑法裡面很明確的規定這種發動戰爭危害人類罪那這個我在書面講義就有了,抱歉不是講義,書面的意見"},{"start":3758.258,"end":3774.629,"text":"這個我就不再贅述那至於第四點如果是軍公教人員或退將他涉及危害國家安全的罪那關於他的退休縫這個問題我看到文草案是說如果是遭受有罪判決以後就要停止發給50%我個人覺得這太客氣了"},{"start":3784.264,"end":3803.672,"text":"按照大法官這個4至782號的解釋這種所謂的退休金的給付給予是國家為了他的生活照顧義務主要的觀點是這樣就是照顧退休的公務員他的生活甚至是維持一個有尊嚴的一個生活"},{"start":3804.485,"end":3821.883,"text":"那可是擺在我們今天的脈絡下面來看這種財產權的保障應該要予以限制或者剝奪簡單來說財產權也要在一個憲法秩序之下所以我們很難相信國家一方面要照顧"},{"start":3823.024,"end":3847.502,"text":"他的生活,另外他拿照顧生活的這些錢來怎麼樣,危害國安這個我覺得是非常矛盾的,因此我個人會建議如果發生這種狀況的話,他的退休金就應該全部停發除非我們發現他本人或者他的家屬確實面臨生活困難"},{"start":3848.843,"end":3857.633,"text":"那這時候可以著急這都是按照強制執行法甚至刑法上面我們都可以發現啊那種犯罪所得在偵查中就可以扣了"},{"start":3859.525,"end":3879.762,"text":"也沒有人會說這個什麼違反無罪推定等等的問題所以我覺得這個考慮過多了我們絕不容許國家一方面拿我們納稅人的錢去發給公務員的退休金要來照顧他的生活另外一方面他可以拿著這個錢繼續的危害國安這個是矛盾的"},{"start":3880.404,"end":3897.686,"text":"那至於其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭的這種行為要不要處罰德國刑法分別在他的破壞和平章裡面還有防害公共秩序裡面都有提到這種言論是禁止的而且是用刑法處罰的"},{"start":3898.687,"end":3926.753,"text":"那我國的草案大概比較客氣啦他對這個是說將來要用行政法的這種罰環的規定那我個人認為即便是要採行政法罰環的規定我個人認為也應該採先行政後司法處罰的態度也就是對那種一犯再犯你對那種罰環已經沒有發生制裁效果的情況"},{"start":3929.698,"end":3946.99,"text":"應該改採刑事處罰的方式那這個在我國的立法力上也有所以呢這個部分應該值得考慮先行政後司法那第六呢為境外敵對勢力散布一些錯假訊息甚至危害到國安要怎麼處罰這個因為啊"},{"start":3951.584,"end":3968.89,"text":"用什麼方式散布?散布的危險性有多高?針對什麼內容?這個非常的多樣化所以德國刑法也沒有用一個很抽象的一個條文所以他是針對很多種情形散布在他的刑法的內容裡面"},{"start":3970.47,"end":3990.572,"text":"那除了這個部分之外呢,我想有一個很值得大家參考德國的立法在2024年基於這個歐盟的所有的指令跟要求所以他有推出一個數位服務法來取代他2017年的這種所謂的網路執行法"},{"start":3991.533,"end":4006.188,"text":"那在這個法裡面就分別針對很多所謂的虛假不實的內容可能包括商品可能裡面也包括了什麼對這種散佈假訊息危害國安他可能包括了這個這個"},{"start":4008.07,"end":4029.168,"text":"鼓勵仇恨發動戰爭暴力威脅種族等等的部分有了詳盡的規定那裡面最重要的就是整個國家對這種第一個網路的監管還有呢所謂的網路的平台業者負有更高的義務審查下架停權等等的規定"},{"start":4029.788,"end":4042.572,"text":"我覺得這個也是值得我們今天面臨這種國安威脅的時候尤其是透過今天的網路這種傳播,我們可以考慮的做法那我就先報告到此,謝謝"},{"start":4046.733,"end":4068.75,"text":"那整個歐洲現在為什麼跟台灣可以有很多共同的話題整個歐洲現在面對俄羅斯他們看到台灣面對中國所以有楊雲樺教授對於德國這麼深入的包含憲法以及數位服務法等等的意見確實很值得參考也很值得推廣感謝楊雲樺教授寶貴的意見"},{"start":4072.242,"end":4081.825,"text":"接下來我們還是照登記的順序,我們請中央警察大學教授王智慎教授,謝謝時間一樣8分鐘,但是可以暢所欲言"},{"start":4092.459,"end":4116.754,"text":"主席在座各位的行政官員各位老師各位媒體朋友大家好我是警察大選王志勝那也非常感謝立法院的邀請今天也就這個國家安全法公認會那當然依照提綱有六個相關的東西來做相關的報告那其實前面兩個老師就法制面做了很多很完整的這樣子的一個說明那基本上我都贊成幾位老師的切入的焦點但是我還是要強調一下說基本上現在為什麼"},{"start":4116.974,"end":4143.004,"text":"我們這麼急迫的要去修相關的國家安全法制很大的原因是在於中共現在的威脅已經不是傳統這種單一行為式的威脅就是單一行為人然後來連結然後來涉密的一個狀況它更多就已經不是傳統我們過去刑法所界定的單一刑結人單一結果犯這樣子的而是更多複合式的包括高度的組織化那代理人化甚至剛剛提到數位化的這樣子的複合式的威脅"},{"start":4143.744,"end":4159.773,"text":"所以事實上在這樣複合式威脅上我們傳統的國家安全法甚至整個台灣的國家安全法制還停留在過去舊的形態沒辦法因應現在層出不窮或者是變化的這樣子的一個新形態的國安威脅我想這個部分也是為什麼我們一直強調說希望能夠"},{"start":4161.014,"end":4180.709,"text":"去這個來去針對國家安全法去做新的這個增補跟修正的部分這是大的一個方向所以基本上我們看到不管是行政部門不管是這個許多立委提出相關的國安法的修正的法案我覺得都是一個正確而且應該要積極快速去進行的一個方向"},{"start":4181.829,"end":4202.974,"text":"我個人是按照就是大園這邊所提供的六個議題來做說明第一個就現行規安法是不是足以應對統戰滲透那當然很清楚的可以看到是無法應對的那剛剛也提到過去就是單一的性質這樣的情況不管是就結果犯的部分那現在其實它其實已經整個整個鏈結已經灰色地帶的鏈結非常非常強"},{"start":4205.635,"end":4221.787,"text":"延長那這個延長的過程當中其實都會長相先吸收吸收之後你測試再配置再滲透所以等你到最後滲透有行為出現的時候才去做這個相關的國安法制的處置其實是不足以進行的所以其實在相關的版本當中對於"},{"start":4223.829,"end":4241.617,"text":"參與組織其實就在前面的前階階段或者是這個中介轉介的部分這個其實都是在把整個過去的滲透鏈的鏈結往前去做延伸讓這個帶椅的節點可以在更前面就能夠獲得組織那而不會是只有末端的結果來面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4242.777,"end":4257.414,"text":"那甚至我覺得在100億的委員的版本裡面甚至都還提到應該要特殊查核或是專業法庭等等之類我覺得大家的方向都一致的就是說整個對於國安法的這個防線要再往前移那如果參加"},{"start":4257.654,"end":4276.22,"text":"照這幾年各個國家的經驗也確實是這樣子它的傳統的情報框架已經都把那個防衛重心移到更前端的組織或者是代理人結構來進行整個的法制升級所以我們的官法現在不管是對於參與組織的部分對於所謂中間人的部分"},{"start":4277.02,"end":4303.601,"text":"去納入其實都是和現在民主國家的整個對於境外勢力的這個防衛的做法是一致的所以這部分非常贊成那第二個部分其實剛剛老師們也提到了就是過去用主觀要件的這樣子的東西意圖害國家安全的說法當然在使得實務上在這個整個的面臨他沒辦法有效的去做定罪因為你很難去界定主觀的一個狀況"},{"start":4304.742,"end":4330.635,"text":"那現在改取這種所謂的形式示範性的這樣的架構其實是完全正確用客觀行為來進行就足以生危害國家安全等等之類的這個部分其實更符合未來在針對整個國安調查當中或是國安法制應用當中更能夠精準或清楚的去瞭解掌握甚至定罪"},{"start":4331.155,"end":4347.69,"text":"那確實其實這幾年包括了我這邊看的都是澳洲加拿大然後英國那有些美國的劑子大概以這四個來做比較把它看的話確實這些國家基本上都不要求證明你是不是你的內心是不是有抽象的叛國意志而是客觀要求足以"},{"start":4348.37,"end":4367.677,"text":"造成危害譬如說你可能是證明是你是受到外國指示贊助或者是你有秘密欺瞞的這樣子各種風險行為就是以客觀的這種足以生危害的角度來進行所以其實從各國的比較法經驗也是往這個方向所以我非常贊成說在這個部分其實要趕緊來做這樣子的一個強化跟修法"},{"start":4368.317,"end":4389.647,"text":"那第三個部分我剛剛也提到就是說對於這種所謂的早期參與行為就是我一直強調就是說現在的整個的滲透鏈他是從接觸宣誓效忠甚至做出承諾然後才有可能才這個配置任務最後才實害發生那如果我們還是一直停留在過去實害發生之後才進行的話"},{"start":4390.447,"end":4408.287,"text":"那這個其實就是看得到抓不到因為他前置的組織甚至宣示效忠甚至接觸網絡就是我們剛剛提到的不管是中間人或者是參與的時候其實是這樣的漏洞其實你會讓這個我們對於整個國安的管制疲於奔命因為一定要到最後時害發生才會有產生"},{"start":4408.988,"end":4432.684,"text":"所以如果現在能夠在這個國安法制當中現在你看不管是中間人也好不管是這個參與也好去明確的明文化甚至包括效忠義的問題都把它明文化的話其實是有助於更清楚的去防堵整個境外敵對勢力它前置的落洞那一樣從各國的比較法當中來看的話其實美國我就不復述那些法制的內容就美國澳洲跟加拿大"},{"start":4433.084,"end":4450.909,"text":"其實現在都已經把重點放在早期辨識就是所謂早期辨識你是不是已經進入到外國的任務鏈當中而且受他控制指揮那當然譬如說外國代理人法外國資金的這些介入等等而不是說你真的要有發生結果我才來進行相關的國安的查處跟管制"},{"start":4451.629,"end":4469.458,"text":"所以這個部分其實不管是這個要參與行為或者是中間人的部分其實是可以適度的去考慮甚至委員們其他的版本之類當中也有提到說更精準的譬如說接受承諾"},{"start":4470.338,"end":4490.947,"text":"這個指揮命令或者是受指示在轉介這些東西然後其實可以有更精準的這種行為樣態可以讓這樣的參與行為更明確因為其他的這個委員版本也有類似的這樣子的一個提案我覺得都可以作為參考但是大原則就是這樣子的漏洞是非常需要即刻去加以補強的好"},{"start":4493.548,"end":4518.89,"text":"第四個部分那個退休給予的部分我的看法跟楊老師離開了跟楊老師有一點點不一樣當然基本上現在這個行政院版的所提出來的這種所謂的這樣子的一個有罪先停一半然後無罪補發然後整個有罪剝奪這樣子的balance的版本我是基本是贊成的因為它兼顧了整個的程序保障還有嚇阻的功能"},{"start":4519.43,"end":4541.078,"text":"因為如果你基本上被認定在一審中間是你有相關的這個國安法罪的話可是一直到定驗才去剝奪那個不管在社會觀感或是對這個人本身在這段長時間的司法訴訟當中的待遇其實都是不橫平的但是如果你說這現在是這樣那如果你說一開始就"},{"start":4541.778,"end":4561.297,"text":"全部停掉那恐怕也有一些爭議存在那我覺得台灣因為這樣子的退銷案例其實在其他國家的這個比較法當中是比較少見的譬如說美國還是以判決判決確定為準可是台灣因為我們在兩岸的特殊性譬如說"},{"start":4562.818,"end":4580.446,"text":"退休公務員或是相關的退離職的這些重要人士他可能有時候就是常住大陸或者是往往常常常常往來而在那個情況之下跟其他國家的樣態是不太一樣的所以我基本上還是行政院的版本但是我也贊成就是說"},{"start":4581.326,"end":4607.95,"text":"基本上你還是要給他有相關的司法救濟管道特別是假設他定驗之後是無罪的情況這兩者之間那甚至到底要到什麼樣程度的國安犯罪才去用這個動才去用這樣子的一個機制我覺得這還是可以考慮的不過這個當然是尊重在立法院後續的討論那整大的方向我覺得在退休給予的部分去做相關的程序上的"},{"start":4609.351,"end":4613.454,"text":"往前的一個嚇阻 我覺得這是正確的方向好 第五個"},{"start":4614.471,"end":4639.23,"text":"鼓吹戰爭言論這個部分其實我們要focus在說現在行政院版本就很清楚的是在講鼓吹戰爭言論那這個剛剛在相關的這個政務部門的報告當中也提到了不管是公正公約裡面所提到的或者是這個其他國家歐美民主國家相關對鼓吹戰爭言論的這個反應都是相當都是一致的就基本上它就是一個違反公正公約違反國際人權的一個標準可是"},{"start":4643.132,"end":4671.349,"text":"可能我的看法是這個部分當然要去做更精準的禁止目前的行政院的版本這個方向是可行的可是有兩個東西第一個就是說這個鼓吹有一種是組織性的鼓吹它是像英國、澳洲、加拿大它的處分方式它不去特別去針對個人的親外的鼓吹的一個部分那當然那還有前一段戰爭是這個違反兩國公正規約的部分但是如果是"},{"start":4672.37,"end":4686.69,"text":"整個的部分親外言論的部分相對是不處罰的但是如果是受外國驅動的那這個部分他是有相對的罰則的不過我完全贊成剛剛內政部的這個報告當中所提到的芬蘭跟拉脯洋因為台灣的"},{"start":4688.232,"end":4705.188,"text":"國家屬性特殊性更接近於剛剛所提到的這些國家我們面對一個危險而止強大的外敵那在那樣的情況之下其實我們更聚焦在整個鼓吹的內容當中我覺得這方向是沒有問題的只是說"},{"start":4706.809,"end":4722.42,"text":"能不能進一步去這個明確化定義或者是更進一步確認這個東西就是對於戰爭沒有祸及到其他部分我覺得這個部分可能也是考慮到未來的言論自由跟國家安全的橫平的一個部分"},{"start":4724.562,"end":4747.239,"text":"如果是受到外國驅動的做這樣子的一個代理跟宣傳那可能又要區分他的這個責任的輕重一個是自己高喊武統一個是他可能受到境外勢力的這個代理或境外勢力的資助來做武統的宣傳我覺得這個部分也可能可以去思考說他後面刑法的這個強弱的差異"},{"start":4748.36,"end":4770.372,"text":"最後一個是有關於敵對勢力錯假訊息的處置問題這個部分其實確實是一個比較麻煩的問題因為它會涉及到說現在的數位資訊網路安全跟言論自由到國家安全之間的一個橫平性的問題那我看了一下行政院的版本大概都基本focus在這個所謂的"},{"start":4773.754,"end":4799.884,"text":"這個網路這個制定者就是這些的商家的部分所以在這樣的情況之下到底要怎麼樣去做強制下架移除啦限制瀏覽等等等等之類的確實有那樣子的一個必要性因為特別是台灣是全世界受到所謂錯假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家不過如果參考國外的比較法的話像歐盟或者是"},{"start":4801.505,"end":4830.648,"text":"英國美國這些東西但目前沒有採取說在這個行政機關管方恰恰錯誤訊息還是聚焦於平台責任還有這個外國的城市款控管的部分甚至包括透明度系統性透明度的要求所以我會建議說這樣子的一個法規是要放進來的可是後來可能在相關的這個錯假訊息的處置當中包括了明確的直接適應的連結這個重大迫切的國安危害"},{"start":4831.168,"end":4849.922,"text":"等等這些可能要納入甚至我記得應該是李昆城委員吧他有一個提案他的提案當中就提到說應該要行政部門要定期的針對各個平台上面的這些催促進取的資訊我應該我覺得書法部有在做了做更多的國安上面的揭露來藉此去要求平台的這種所謂的"},{"start":4850.802,"end":4869.855,"text":"責任我覺得這部分都是可以去強化的不過整個方向來看國安法納入這種對於敵對勢力挫甲軍旗的處置不管特別是對平台端的責任的克責我覺得這個部分也是一個未來必然要去修法的一個方向所以以上六個部分其實最後還是簡單講一下就是說基本上"},{"start":4871.236,"end":4887.111,"text":"我覺得現在的狀況就是說我們現在對於國安法的修訂其實是因為整個境外勢力它的多元化跟這種精緻化的變化所以其實我們的配套可能就要更完整的"},{"start":4887.951,"end":4912.559,"text":"去做整個的補強那目前看起來行政院版本他在這個國家安全法當中的每個面向都去補足了現在對於中國他各種樣態的滲透也好或者是國安的威脅也好所以我覺得重點是現在應該是趕快的來進行下一個階段的討論跟修法讓我們現在的面對的各式各樣的樣態的這個國安漏洞可以加以補強 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝王智慎教授寶貴的意見"},{"start":4918.946,"end":4940.86,"text":"接下來我們請東吳大學教授洪兆成教授我們一樣有時間計時大家請你暢所欲言 謝謝好 朱熹今天與會的各位先進今天非常榮幸能夠參與這場公聽會今天這個題目條件提供大概有六個基於時間問題我們可能就是一到五的部分可能我這邊稍微分享一下這個"},{"start":4941.881,"end":4960.222,"text":"我的意見還有一些還有可能海外各國那我這邊主要是日本的相關的一些可能之前的一些相關的處置那第六個部分可能就先稍微發表一下我的目前的一個看法那首先就是說第一面對提綱以後面對這個境外敵對勢力各種統戰色透作為日區的現行國安法是否足以應對其實"},{"start":4961.383,"end":4984.434,"text":"如果說看一下現在國安法的規定主要的做法是想要先抓所謂的首腦也就是說比較是屬於上層的人士但是其實正如同最近的一個趨勢其實譬如說以詐騙集團來說現在大部分的做法都應該是沒辦法一開始就抓到首腦你可能必須從下層開始繼續順藤摸瓜的一個抓上去才有機會 當然這邊講的是機會不是說一定抓得到 才有機會抓到首腦"},{"start":4987.836,"end":5001.183,"text":"所以在這個狀況下來說的話如果一開始只針對首腦的話那你就喪失了這個從有下往上的這個機會所以說那當然是不是足以應對那可能就要看看後面的幾個提綱的目前的一個看法那如果如果說如果當結論上來說的話可能"},{"start":5003.044,"end":5023.892,"text":"還是有需要補強的一個部分那這是第一個部分第二個部分就是關於這個意圖危害國家安全與社會安定的主觀過程要見是否妥適那剛剛前面兩位的前面的馮教授那其實跟楊教授其實也有提過提到一些類似的看法就是說以前所謂的意圖要見其實他有他證明的困難性那我這邊要"},{"start":5025.293,"end":5043.224,"text":"其實意圖要件不只是一個證明的困難性問題意圖要件原本的用途是在區分行為本身的性質以及它的一個危險性那其實它在這早期被廣泛的利用譬如說所謂的強制猥褻之前有所謂的傾向犯的規定還有關於所謂的操縱市場有所謂的意圖"},{"start":5044.725,"end":5056.432,"text":"但現在還是有一個意圖就是意圖影響市場股價的經濟刑法上面以及等等的一個部分其實意圖要件當然就是面臨的一個問題就是說它其實是個主觀超出故意的一個要件所以說是沒有客觀的事實來跟它對應的像剛剛楊教授講的好像只能依靠自白"},{"start":5066.617,"end":5092.77,"text":"所以說其實近年來漸漸的調整譬如說這邊分享一個案例其實這個是屬於刑法一開始修法的一個案例譬如說這個以前在當時刑法一開始修法的時候所謂的衛照貨幣跟衛照右家證券都是說意圖行使而衛照但是在衛照文書本來是採取同樣的方式但是後來他們覺得說只有意圖行使這樣太窄了衛照文書應該有更多所以才改成了現在的足以生工損害於公眾或他人這個是記載在這個"},{"start":5093.991,"end":5110.926,"text":"黃文聖老師的《新莫名出》的史料概觀裡面的一個地方他有提到這樣的一個修法理由那所以說簡單來說這兩個東西其實是有一個互換的可能性的也就是說意圖要件跟所謂的足身事性概要件其實在如果說我們從這個修法之外來看起來它其實是有互換的一個可能性所以說"},{"start":5111.627,"end":5127.114,"text":"在這個地方呢如果說把意圖要件拿掉然後把所有的自信犯要件放進來那也就是說你認識這些東西甚至也認識到這些東西有足深的這樣的一個效果的話其實我覺得是有取代意圖要件的功用也可以避免意圖要件過度困難的問題當然啦意圖要件它"},{"start":5127.634,"end":5151.25,"text":"其實它象徵了一個更強大的一個更強的一個限縮那這個更強的限縮其實它對於某一些邊際的案例還是有它的一個必要性不過這個部分的話如果說未來有類似的問題的話我會建議可以使用所謂的有點類似主確違法事由的方式去做一些排除那這個相關的案例其實也可以鑑於所謂的"},{"start":5151.95,"end":5172.251,"text":"關於關於關於我們的這個證券交易法裡面內線交易的部分那當時就有說到底需不需要有獨立意圖還是說要是是需是是需要用知悉然後再用然後然後在這個主協會法事由上面再規定幾款可以排除的事由那那個時候講說已經有原定的交易計畫那其實因為如果說考量到"},{"start":5172.932,"end":5197.601,"text":"考量到意圖他有過度限縮然後足以可能也會有一點點的一些擴張的部分的話我會建議就是這乾脆就針對這個可能去覺得會有點過度的一個部分去做經營一些主缺違法事由可能會是比較適合的做法那接下來是關於參與的部分就是那個那個提綱三的這個部分那首先就是參與就就就同我前面所提到的就是一般現在現在的現在對於這樣的犯罪的這種"},{"start":5198.041,"end":5217.98,"text":"類似組織犯罪的防治不管是詐騙集團也好或者現在或者是我們今天要談的所謂的國安的這種組織也好環外國安的組織也好他其實他的抓法其實都通常都是由下往上由下往上那以這個角度來說的話參與當然是絕對參與的處罰我覺得是有必要的有必要只是說問題是要怎麼在如同前面的馮教授有講但是問題是要怎麼"},{"start":5219.461,"end":5240.576,"text":"怎麼參與是加入就好還是要跟這個組織犯罪條例的實務間接一樣要加入並且參與工作那要參與什麼樣的一個工作那是要參與什麼樣的工作這邊我可以分享一下就是關於這個日本在這個2017年的修法他們修所謂的恐怖當然他們的對象是跨國際組織犯罪跨國組織犯罪"},{"start":5242.617,"end":5265.425,"text":"他們的六條支援針對恐怖組織跟其他組織的犯罪集團他就說這些人可能就是必須根據其犯罪計畫去準備資金跟物品去找相關的一些犯罪場所等等去做一些為了實行的準備行為的時候那就依照以下各款的刑度"},{"start":5265.825,"end":5280.858,"text":"所以說在這個前提之下我會認為說目前的參與有加上足以的適性犯要件雖然我覺得是一個正確我覺得是一個我自己也贊同的一個方向可是那是不是可能也要需要加一些加一些所謂的可能"},{"start":5281.578,"end":5309.922,"text":"類似的行為也就是說譬如說什麼A行為B行為譬如說什麼準備然後或者準備或者是提供資金等等類似其他其他足以生國安損害的行為那又透過用類似概念的比較讓我們知道說這樣讓把這個罪行的明確性把它更明確的定清楚當然了其實因為日本的規定跟我們不太一樣因為我們是採取用參與我們是我們對於組織犯罪是採取參與模式跟德國一樣的參與模式那日本是採取合一模式也就是共謀犯也就是一種共謀"},{"start":5310.422,"end":5324.317,"text":"英美也是共謀犯罪的性質這點可能有點不一樣但是在要求所謂的實際的參與行為是什麼的部分我覺得應該也多多少少可以參考一下接下來進入到提綱時間差不多現在趕快進入到提綱四的部分"},{"start":5329.562,"end":5349.66,"text":"那就是說,是不是有救判決權,死得剝奪財產權號,死之錯虛,追繳困難,是否妥適?其實現在刑法也好,民法也好,其實都有一種為了沒收而先行扣押的規定譬如說刑法在之前的修法,其實民法有所謂的假扣押"},{"start":5351.101,"end":5378.961,"text":"刑法也有所謂的就是為了未來的沒收而先行扣押的一個規定那從這個角度來看的話似乎好像也沒有說到完全到這個完全不行那當然相關的這個部分那目前行政院版的草案是先一半然後之後確定一審判決先一半之後無罪再回覆那或許可以如果說但是如果參考到所謂的那個假扣押實在是在偵查的時候就可以證的這個狀況下的話"},{"start":5380.942,"end":5404.722,"text":"或許可以在早期一個其他時點譬如說起訴前 起訴時等等的這個當然是可以在思考的一個部分那只是目前提供一些不成熟的想法最後一個就是其他國家對於鼓吹戰爭言論如何處置那這個地方稍微分享一下日本的建議那因為日本現在當然是沒事但是在1960年代到1990年代其實在面對所謂的這個大規模的有些是學運 有些是真的就是蘇聯指示 蘇聯支持"},{"start":5407.684,"end":5435.226,"text":"當然當時是蘇聯啦 蘇聯只是蘇聯支持的一些團體的時候他們有訂定所謂的破壞活動防止法的38條到41條針對煽動 針對煽動所謂的這個內亂外患 外患資源還有一些比較嚴重的這個公共危險的犯罪 放火等等的那這個問題 這樣這樣的一個煽動的犯罪是不是 會不會有影響言論自由的問題呢他們在1990年的這個最高法院的判決有一個結論"},{"start":5436.147,"end":5450.204,"text":"他們提到說就算是表現活動也不是絕對毫無限制的容許如果說這個反於公共福祉然後超越表現自由的界限的時候也必須要受到一些限制那他剛剛講的這些煽動講的是所謂的放火罪的煽動放這些煽動那其實是有"},{"start":5452.507,"end":5469.599,"text":"其實是屬於可能會引起所謂的限住建造物的放火罪還有騷擾罪等等的重大犯罪的可能性是屬於社會的行為所以他覺得說不適合受到表現資格的保護所以必須要受到限制所以他認為說這樣的煽動罪是不處罰當然在對於這個實務判決大法庭的判決不然是小法庭的判決"},{"start":5470.78,"end":5489.441,"text":"學說上面有一些不同的意見那剛剛也有看到其實有些後面有專家有提到所謂的明白或顯著的危險那這邊再補充一個就是1969年這個有提到一個東西有提到的這樣的一個判決就是說這樣的行為必須是要煽動所謂的迫切的非合法的行為那這個然後這樣的行為除了這個"},{"start":5492.805,"end":5505.477,"text":"第二個就是這樣的行為發展有發生的蓋然性有存在於發生蓋然性的場合這個時候就可以簡單學說的標準是相較於實務的標準更加嚴格的那這個部分當然也就提供給各位先進參考那最後一個部分就是關於所謂的這個"},{"start":5507.899,"end":5533.011,"text":"錯假訊息危害國家安全的部分那我個人也是不同目前啦就是關於錯假訊息如果說依照前面的邏輯再往下的話對於錯假訊息可能還是要視錯假訊息的性質給予規範就這一點來說的話我們現在譬如說有針對所謂的這種重大的衛生訊息或針對跟所謂的這個國安等等有關的訊息就跟國安有些特殊的訊息進行規範這一點我倒是可以至於要不要規範完整的對於錯假訊息的規範"},{"start":5536.212,"end":5562.492,"text":"這個部分我個人會認為說目前的做法就是針對所謂的網域提供者進行管理的做法相對而言是比較合理的做法因為譬如說他有所謂因為身為提供者當接到舉報可能有錯假訊息的危險他可能就必須要負擔一定程度的查核義務這點我覺得是可行的那其實譬如說像剛剛楊老師已經離開了譬如說像德國他針對所謂的這個"},{"start":5564.273,"end":5591.924,"text":"針對所有網站提供者如果發現網路上有跟犯罪有關的訊息沒有及時移除的話其實是有可能成立相關的中性行為綁住的一個問題這個地方其實之前也有被討論好那以上是我的發言謝謝謝謝洪教授你為了時間講話速度非常快謝謝謝謝你寶貴的意見接下來我們請登記第五位桂洪誠民主基金會董事長謝謝"},{"start":5596.96,"end":5625.858,"text":"謝謝我們一樣有限時啦但是也歡迎暢所欲言謝謝還有各位學者專家以及各位媒體記者大家好今天我有這個機會來這邊表達一下我對修正國安法的一些看法那麼我想說我把問題一開始我想說先跟"},{"start":5626.727,"end":5643.832,"text":"來看看這個問題從立法技術上我們來看來看這個問題該怎麼來思考我們主要先提供一點思考首先我們來看我們在這個立法說明裡面我們一開始就講近年來境外敵對勢力對我國滲透守法日趨多元等等等等"},{"start":5644.952,"end":5669.187,"text":"可是我們為什麼不是修改反滲透法呢反滲透法裡面規定的規範的這個主體就是境外敵對勢力啊而且這邊也提到是滲透啊那你那我們那如果你知道有反滲透法存在的話我看到這個一開始的這個立法理由我就會認為說為什麼不修改反滲透法而放在國安法那這個可能就是一種"},{"start":5670.694,"end":5695.45,"text":"一定程度上它就是一個我後面會講到的一種宣傳宣傳目的那我們再來看國安法第二條規定得很清楚任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力等等等等派遣之為以下之行為法律規定得很清楚任何人不得不得為外國大陸地區所以大陸地區不是外國"},{"start":5696.331,"end":5715.859,"text":"好 香港澳門境外敵對勢力所以大陸地區不是境外敵對勢力那麼請問現在我們所界定的境外敵對勢力怎麼會跟中共呢中共是不是大陸地區的那個當權者那如果是的話法律已經區分得很清楚境外敵對勢力跟大陸地區是區分的那你為什麼要寫"},{"start":5717.247,"end":5737.318,"text":"那你今天是針對大陸地區的話你乾脆就直接寫大陸地區你為什麼要寫境外敵對勢力因為境外敵對勢力的話這個規範是放在反滲透法雖然你把大陸在反滲透法裡面你把大陸地區歸為境外敵對勢力之一外國也是可是你在國安法的話你就要適用國安法這個要怎麼處理"},{"start":5740.054,"end":5759.771,"text":"外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力都是個別不同的主體那你今天如果要規範是境外敵對勢力的話你就要先告訴我們什麼是境外敵對勢力但是不能是大陸地區喔那如果你今天完全是針對大陸地區你就直接寫大陸地區嘛"},{"start":5762.35,"end":5790.803,"text":"那如果你那如果這樣子混淆過去的話我們就會又會發生一些問題那我這邊特別有提到總統也沒有權宣告大陸地區或者外國是境外敵對勢力境外敵對勢力法律有規定只能適用在反滲透法裡面那種狀況那在這邊的話就不能做這樣一個宣告這是我一個從立法基礎上我首先要提出這個質疑"},{"start":5792.421,"end":5815.635,"text":"當然我們現在要看的話我們今天制定國安法的話一定是有它一個很特殊的一個需要那這個需要的話相對於國安法它的立法過程制定法律一開始比如說民國76年我們第一次制定的國安法當時是因為解除戒嚴而戒嚴期間所謂的所謂的入出境管制三地"},{"start":5816.937,"end":5842.008,"text":"沿海這些都是軍方在管為了解除戒嚴改由警察來管的時候我們制定了國家安全法所以我們可以去看一下國家安全法有施行記者它裡面大部分規定的是什麼東西跟現在我們要討論的完全無關但是呢我們自從邁入了自由民主之後我們發現國家安全越來越麻煩了越來越危險了你就表示當時的戒嚴是對的嗎"},{"start":5843.786,"end":5872.64,"text":"自己的民主之後我們越不安全了到了民國111年我們修正全文20條增加一倍而民國76年修正的時候當時民進黨還抗議啊國安法是奴隸法我們現在也蠻慚愧的我們可能準備要被奴隸了是這個概念嗎這個要思考一下啊那你起碼你要制定這個法律你要告訴我們而且是誰有權說現在是什麼狀況你就說我們現在就是"},{"start":5874.82,"end":5894.105,"text":"處於一個極為類似過去動員戡亂時期而且我們極可能發生戰爭的狀況就告訴大家反正我們要服兵我們要增加了這很正常接下來我們再直接看條文這也是我提供立法技術上的問題請大家看任何人不得"},{"start":5896.111,"end":5920.679,"text":"等等等等 圖畫餘下等等等等公開鼓吹倡議或支持換言之鼓吹不等於倡議鼓吹跟倡議是有差別的跟支持也有程度的不同那請問什麼是鼓吹 什麼是倡議很明顯 支持很明顯啊但是什麼叫鼓吹 什麼叫倡議"},{"start":5923.046,"end":5942.933,"text":"你不確定的法律概念你要寫出來因為你如果在立法理由裡面你現在不寫清楚的話將來在執行的時候就會被無限擴大這是我們現在已經看到的狀況完全不符合當時的立法理由然後變成行政機關實質上修改的法律了"},{"start":5943.737,"end":5964.014,"text":"因為他完全變更了當時立法理由的原意做出所謂的行政解釋這是麻煩的事情這是嚴重違背依法行政原則的狀況所以我們就要問什麼叫鼓吹什麼叫倡議如果根據這個條文我假設我今天有人我就支持好了"},{"start":5965.103,"end":5986.554,"text":"甚至我鼓吹好了我支持香港或澳門對我國發動戰爭或者採取非和平手段消滅我國主權如果真的有人鼓吹香港或澳門的話那真笑欸有影響到人嗎那港澳人他自己聽到這個話他會覺得你們這個台灣人是發瘋了嗎可是你政府必須要依法行政的時候你就必須要處罰他了"},{"start":5995.438,"end":6019.241,"text":"沒有人會認為他是正常人的這樣一個言論,可是你就要處罰因為港澳,港澳會要,港澳要消滅我們嗎?你說有可能嗎?好,同樣的我們來問如果我今天公開鼓吹帛琉共和國請他對我們發動戰爭,我也違法啊可是你也是笑的啊,帛琉沒有軍隊啊人口兩萬多人啊,我們派"},{"start":6020.919,"end":6049.232,"text":"新北市某一個區就把它整個消滅掉了那這樣的一個主張或者是一個支持有問題嗎?要處罰嗎?這是我們的問題啊鄭朱實際經驗只有政府的統治行為才可能導致戰爭OK我再趕快講一下我們剛剛一直提到那個主管機關也提到所謂的公民與政治權利公約我們請看一下我們是內國法化了"},{"start":6050.014,"end":6063.592,"text":"有中文英文是什麼有一個是對於那個戰爭的那邊有一個propaganda那對於那個仇恨的所以這兩個是不同的概念喔這要寫清楚喔"},{"start":6066.052,"end":6081.963,"text":"那麼應該立法禁止的是propaganda什麼叫propaganda我就請各位自己看簡單說美國政治學者他一開始就一直在講這個東西尤其是美國的政治學者他在講這個用這個詞的時候他主要是講美國人"},{"start":6083.445,"end":6109.748,"text":"運用在政府鼓勵國人仇視敵國這也要受限制的如果符合公民與政治權利公約的話這個也要受到限制的那這個部分來說的話就是非常值得我們思考真正會導致戰爭的勝負我跳著講這個你們就請大家自己看我再請問一個問題美國美國正在發動戰爭他有沒有禁止"},{"start":6111.055,"end":6136.127,"text":"有啊!他禁止反戰啦!他禁止反戰那美國是自由民主國家的典範他雖然有簽署這個公約可是他沒有內國法化為什麼?因為他是主動要發動戰爭的他過去的經驗他只有禁止或者是壓制所謂的反戰言論包括現在也是"},{"start":6137.028,"end":6146.782,"text":"美國沒有啊自由民主國家沒有一定要限制的啊那這部分的話實際上的關係我就請大家自己參考另外特別提到大英百科全書對這個詞有一個定義還有"},{"start":6151.547,"end":6175.394,"text":"我們立法理由裡面有提到第11號的一般性應屆我這邊有做一個說明也請參考因為立法理由可能說明的不完整我把他這邊引出來他主要是強調要限制人民去鼓勵政府倡議去導致一個侵略行動所以政府也要受到限制的也要立法限制這不得宣傳戰爭行為"},{"start":6177.792,"end":6194.959,"text":"這個還是我們所謂那個政治權力那個公約的一個重要的一個內涵此外立法理由裡面也說明也說到芬蘭的狀況芬蘭的狀況整個完整來說的話它有一個大前提以發生或即將發生軍事危機"},{"start":6196.209,"end":6220.142,"text":"或國際政治危機期間才有這些限制包括公開勸告,勸告而已喔要達到勸告程度,外國對芬蘭發動戰爭或者芬蘭去打外國那另外他這邊有一個限制,所謂系統性散佈等等等等等等這就是所謂Papaganda"},{"start":6221.189,"end":6246.989,"text":"他所要限制的也就是我們講的政治權力公約裡面要立法限制那個要有一個系統性的毫無根據的誤導性的那通常對政治學者來說的話我們的研究都認為經常在誤導的導致戰爭的是政府老百姓的機率極低因為老百姓影響力沒有那麼大那另外我有兩個我一直很快的"},{"start":6248.204,"end":6259.425,"text":"所謂那個剝奪退休金那個事情我簡單說我建議這條應該刪除回歸比如說軍人的話就回歸軍人的公務員回歸公務員的相關退服制度裡面去規定"},{"start":6260.663,"end":6281.65,"text":"那至於說我們立法理由裡面說來有說追繳不容易啊哎呀所以過去的經驗政府追繳很容易啊哪有什麼不容易啊何況權力保障優先於行政的方便性這是很基本的原則那如果你堅持要寫這個理由的話我也沒意見反而可以讓大家了解政府的想法行政的那個"},{"start":6282.49,"end":6307.319,"text":"行政的方便性會優於權力保障那另外提綱裡面還提到一個向德恩的那個狀況那我這邊有提到一些基本的邏輯看法我也請大家參考 我不另外多講最後回顧到一下 重新思考一下當時民進黨主張只要解嚴不要國安法 為什麼那這個部分我們就提供大家參考好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":6311.428,"end":6326.837,"text":"來 謝謝我們非常感謝龜泳城董事長寶貴的意見 謝謝接下來 抱歉讓這個蔣教授久等我們請蔣貴美教授發表時間一樣八分鐘 也請暢所欲言 謝謝主席 在場各位來賓先進"},{"start":6335.762,"end":6362.454,"text":"實際上我九點準時到的就沒想到談到最後不過很好因為可以傾聽大家的意見不過聽了前面有些學者的意見我覺得有點觸目驚心當中聽到一句讓我覺得不知人權為何物的觀點說不見得這個國安問題不見得要是損害發生才能追究"},{"start":6364.175,"end":6377.236,"text":"那這邊會談到一個民主國家最基本的原理原則我們在所謂的罪罰相當罪責相當的原則之下你要符合證據法則"},{"start":6379.315,"end":6401.116,"text":"那如果在證據不清楚的情況之下而又事前來做防範的這個刑責追究我覺得那完全不是民主國家的原理原則這個讓我們教書人不知道怎麼教那我們當然非常清楚這個國安法裡面很多是思想自由言論自由的問題"},{"start":6402.617,"end":6427.405,"text":"思想自由言論自由我在書面報告裡面第一個就提到憲法第十一條憲法十一條它寫得非常簡略可是中華民國走到現在不是一蹴可及的所以我們過去非常清楚包含了抗亂時期終止的時候把刑法一百條意圖犯刪掉"},{"start":6428.445,"end":6443.585,"text":"那當然非常更清楚的包含了大法官過去的態度大法官在這個我們非常民國87年那是刊亂終止以後大概六七年的時間他做了一個445號的釋憲"},{"start":6446.297,"end":6474.689,"text":"那445號視線離現在已經快30年了可是以那時候的民主化的思想自由的標準它針對的是什麼呢?集會遊行那最後解釋被解釋成違憲違憲的關鍵原因是什麼?它違反了明顯而即刻的違憲那這個只要讀過書的人都知道Clear and persistent danger taste"},{"start":6478.314,"end":6504.344,"text":"這個原則在美國憲法的修正增修第一條就有為什麼我們過了幾十年後到現在還在談這個問題明顯而即刻的危險那這個案子後來在各國甚至包含美國本土過去都有發生過司法上的訴訟那這是長期以來確立的標準到我們國家的時候已經是民國87年了"},{"start":6506.397,"end":6522.311,"text":"那八十幾年當時我們覺得這個一點都不先進為什麼 別的國家已經幾十年了我們才終於踩到明顯而即刻的危險作為一個人權保障言論保障思想自由的一個最根本的門檻三十年後的今天我們的證據法則罪責相當行政權不介入事前審查思想的部分"},{"start":6535.003,"end":6559.235,"text":"如果沒有具體的行為上的證據力足堪認為你已經產生實質的國家安全的危害那這個叫做明顯而極客危險的適用原則嗎格若不知道這個沒有幾年之後我們大法官呢在97年又出現了一個釋字644號"},{"start":6562.762,"end":6572.948,"text":"那剛才的4.45號 因為時間有限我不詳細講那你當然知道4.45號當時針對的集會遊行法裡面呢 它針對的是什麼主張共產主義或分裂國土大法官認為說不達到明顯而即刻的違憲所以你要用行政權事前來介入 這個是違憲的"},{"start":6587.81,"end":6590.378,"text":"那可是 隔了幾年 97年之後我們又出現了644號解釋"},{"start":6594.861,"end":6619.343,"text":"六四四號解釋是針對人民團體法因為當時並沒有政黨法但是它有政黨這一章那所以呢在人民團體法裡面它這個六四四號針對的是什麼一樣的問題針對人民他主張所謂的共產主義或者是主張分裂國土我們現在的國安法不是一直在談這個問題嗎"},{"start":6621.26,"end":6636.978,"text":"那為什麼不去看看過去的解釋標準呢還在把過去的這兩號重要的解釋掃入歷史另建新的標準而你新的標準你要在憲法的基本原則下你要怎麼去解釋"},{"start":6638.922,"end":6654.671,"text":"那當然這個644號的人團法裡面它除了我們剛剛說的明顯而極客的違憲它還適用了一個非常重要的原則就是事前審查呢它是違反必要性原則的所以違憲行為沒有具體的損害產生"},{"start":6660.495,"end":6675.423,"text":"沒有所謂明顯而即刻的違憲那你這時候事前就要進入審查事前就要把刑法拉進來這個當然是違憲的那所以644號是民國幾年?它是民國97年耶過去的解釋我們今天是進入動員勘案時期了嘛那你至少要有一個高於什麼高於法律的什麼什麼條款"},{"start":6690.933,"end":6699.738,"text":"你今天什麼都沒有在現行的憲法之下你要做這麼大幅度的打破過去的標準請問何所本好當然另外一個問題接踵而來另外一個問題我們非常清楚啊兩岸關係的定位那這個大家已經說破嘴了為什麼誰都可以講一套問題是我們必須言之有理啊"},{"start":6721.073,"end":6739.566,"text":"兩岸關係條例從哪來的呢它是從憲法徵修條文來的憲法徵修條文第十一條民人授權以法律定制但是授權之前它做了一個明確化的原則它非常清楚說自由地區跟大陸地區那事實上是兩區的概念那這是明定在憲法徵修第十一條裡面"},{"start":6749.349,"end":6772.579,"text":"那後來呢 我們當然根據這個政協第11條就出現兩岸關係的條例好 那這個主席 我再時間延長一點點 不會太長教授你可以暢所欲言 謝謝很快可以結束那所以呢 我們在憲法第11條 授權兩岸關係條例這是憲法保留的條款 不是法律保留的條款"},{"start":6773.539,"end":6790.224,"text":"它是憲法保留的憲法保留的法律上來定的條款呢當跟兩岸關係其他條文發生漢格的時候哪一個優先這個可能連大一學生都知道特別法尤其優先適用它是兩區的概念"},{"start":6794.025,"end":6803.881,"text":"那當然如果再回到憲法前言那這個我就不講了憲法前言的前四個字什麼非常清楚也就是國家統一前"},{"start":6806.348,"end":6830.139,"text":"那這個是涉及到什麼呢?涉及到我們一個非常重要的概念憲法跟憲律剛才前面我忘了是哪個學者提到Karl Schmitt的觀點我想讀過公法的人都非常清楚那Schmitt的觀點他一直強調什麼?他一直強調說因為他生在動盪時代 微妙共和的時代他一直強調說"},{"start":6833.144,"end":6856.478,"text":"宪法落实在实际政治上的时候你要找到它的宪政秩序啊当你这么多条纹互相汉格冲突的时候你的秩序是稳定的嘛那所以徐密特说宪法里面最怕的是什么最怕的是价值介入它不应该有任何价值进去啊"},{"start":6858.544,"end":6877.328,"text":"台灣人定在那很清楚啊那我們為什麼可以把台灣人視而不見然後透過很多種方式來彼此漢戈那所以我們當然實力上很清楚過去我在監察院服務的時候書面裡面我提到了一個109內調這個0078號的這個案子"},{"start":6881.567,"end":6906.488,"text":"那是109年結案的一個案子當時媒體叫做查水表案那當然法律上沒有這個名詞他的法源是根據什麼法?社會秩序維護法第63條第五項 第五款那社會秩序維護法呢後來到現在那款仍然沒有改"},{"start":6907.881,"end":6930.891,"text":"可是有一點令人失望的關鍵原因是什麼因為那個調查報告裡面因為去一個台大教授去一個很多人家去抓人家然後把人家移送移送了之後最後很多案子出來沒事不成比例也抓了一堆人最後出來大部分都沒事"},{"start":6933.646,"end":6960.231,"text":"那後來當時我們約尋了法務部也約尋了警政最高這個首長幾乎都約尋了當時在我離開監察院109年最後之前有關機關呢信誓旦旦的說一定會修法那後來隔了幾年我如果沒有記錯應該是兩年前政府機關呢應該是蔡總統時代"},{"start":6963.689,"end":6977.912,"text":"請國際人權學者來台灣針對兩公約落實的情況來進行評鑒這個評鑒報告到現在掛在法務部網站我前兩天還在看了一下 看它有沒有下架這個報告裡面寫什麼總結意見裡面 大家仔細看總結意見裡面 它有一點非常清楚的說"},{"start":6990.049,"end":7004.412,"text":"我們涉違法也就是針對查水表案他說違反了明確化原則尤其涉及到形式的必須更符合明確化原則才能夠達到民主國家的標準那可是為什麼我在書面報告裡面對這一條文我們沒有一條一條去分析為什麼他的明確化很多是不夠的"},{"start":7017.401,"end":7042.561,"text":"那今天呢這個報告國際學者的評估而且國際學者據我的觀察不同政府時代找的學者都不大一樣這是執政政府自己找來的學者他的評鑑非常清楚那這是我們常說的查水表案那後來我就發現一個問題107年呢我查那個案子的時候他比前一年"},{"start":7043.911,"end":7049.795,"text":"查出來的所謂的這個散播謠言多了七倍啊暴增了七倍他的裁罰率幾乎不到兩成那你為什麼會暴增到七倍那裁罰率還是一樣啊那這是什麼作用我看不懂這叫寒蟬效應嘛 先把你嚇死再說嘛"},{"start":7072.585,"end":7083.951,"text":"那所以為什麼耗這些人力耗這些功夫然後逢到選舉年因為那年有選舉暴增了比前年多了幾乎六七倍這樣對嗎當然不對啊那所以呢我在法務部統計處的相關資料為了來這個公聽會我簡單查了一下檢查機關辦理特定國安案件的統計"},{"start":7102.452,"end":7119.365,"text":"在109年到現在為止國安法109年還沒有,隔了幾年出來109年到現在為止我們113年,這指的是民國起訴的人數是170個人,達到高峰好啦,執行裁判確定有罪的人多少?23個"},{"start":7128.385,"end":7149.43,"text":"起訴跟所謂的裁判確定這麼不相干嗎那跟我前面說的查水表案雖然不大一樣一個是秩序法一個是刑法但是至少先秩序法吧已經秩序法的明確性都被國際學者糾正"},{"start":7151.601,"end":7172.675,"text":"那網談刑法更何況符合我們剛剛說的明顯而即刻的危險嗎符合我們剛剛說的證據法則嗎符合我們剛剛說的剛才的兩號非常重要的釋憲案裡面445跟644號大法官一直強調憲法第幾條23條"},{"start":7176.65,"end":7186.238,"text":"也就是23條我們的人權在憲法那一章非常清楚人權那一章從第7條到第24條到22條叫做人權的概括條款23條叫什麼叫限制條款你今天只要你限制人權你必須顛過來倒過去去看23條指的是什麼23條裡面包含了四大原則"},{"start":7205.717,"end":7213.429,"text":"第一個你要限制人權要法律保留所以我們剛剛講過了兩岸關係條例是憲法保留過來的他當然優先"},{"start":7216.649,"end":7235.879,"text":"還有必要性原則所以我們在過去涉及到分裂國土我們用的是必要性原則明顯要即刻的威脅而且在過去我剛才還有講過的道火跟視線裡面還談到了比例原則目的手段之間要有橫平性你不能過蕩"},{"start":7239.909,"end":7248.733,"text":"那這些我們都可以拋諸老後嗎所以限制人權任何一個國家的憲法它的存在是為了保障人權不是為了剝奪人權"},{"start":7251.147,"end":7269.962,"text":"所以在這原理原則都沒有充分突破的情況之下所出來的草案我覺得需要深思 需要面對我們司法上的良心那最後呢 我們這個很重要的一個觀念"},{"start":7271.613,"end":7285.65,"text":"剛才有談到很多譬如說錯假訊息這都是條文裡面的規範我就不一個一個去談了那錯假訊息當然我剛才談到一個我認為比較重要的概念你至少先繼續發然後才有刑法的問題"},{"start":7287.516,"end":7312.707,"text":"那至於退休金我們人事法規已經夠多了你知道全世界的民主國家在行政法裡面在大陸法系幾乎都會有總則我們總則到現在定不出來我們了不起定了一個程序法然後基準法有一部其他沒有我們的條款已經太多我們實務上在運作的時候我想我們在座很多政府官員"},{"start":7313.607,"end":7338.451,"text":"我們實務上在運作的時候碰到一個最頭痛的問題就是我們的權責機關常常出問題該誰管的就是誰管人事的就回到人事業管該誰管的就是誰管每一個法律裡面都要從別的法裡面撈一些過來那這個權責會完全混淆掉我相信人事方面的專業不是任何其他機關可以取代的"},{"start":7340.191,"end":7365.588,"text":"我們在很多法裡面 這個法抓一點 那個法抓一點然後拼湊出來一部法那你怎麼回歸到業管跟權責上的認定所以我想在陸委會的書面報告裡面只有提到2024起訴了64個人這個來源好像是根據國安局統計的不過很遺憾 只看到起訴 沒有看到結果"},{"start":7366.448,"end":7390.946,"text":"那當然你一定會跟我說結果還沒出來所以呢我們當然會長期追蹤大家一起努力好謝謝好謝謝謝謝蔣貴美教授寶貴的意見謝謝辛苦齁接下來從高雄上來我們廖一鳴教授謝謝請你發表意見我們一樣有計時但是請你暢所欲言謝謝"},{"start":7401.957,"end":7416.778,"text":"主席 各位委員以及在座各位行政機關代表各位學者專家以及媒體朋友大家早安我是高雄大學廖惠民今天很受邀出席國家安全法這個部分條文修正案的公定會我感到非常榮幸"},{"start":7417.884,"end":7436.604,"text":"那為了比較精準的嚴謹的表達我個人的意見呢我再次就我有一份我的這個發言的書面稿那我再次就用我已經早就寫好的這個發言稿啊那如果說在座各位有需要需要我的比較比較完整的發言稿的話我再提供"},{"start":7438.015,"end":7466.775,"text":"那首先我必須明確的表達對於政府維護國家安全防止境外勢力滲透及破壞的這個決心的理解與支持在當前複雜的地緣政治局勢與新型態的國家安全的威脅之下檢視並強化現行的法治工具確有其必要性與正當性國家安全是所有基本權利得以實現的基礎法治國原則並不要求國家在面對威脅的時候必須束手無策"},{"start":7467.918,"end":7482.918,"text":"然而正因為國家安全法規往往涉及到對人民權利最嚴厲的限制包括刑事處罰在立法上我們應該秉持憲法上的比例原則或法律明確性原則精確地劃定刑法的射程範圍"},{"start":7484.139,"end":7504.017,"text":"我們必須警惕過於寬泛或模糊的構成要件不僅可能無法精準地打擊真正的危害行為反而可能對民主社會賴於運作的言論自由學術自由及正當經濟活動造成不必要的寒蟬效應進而侵蝕我們欲守護的民主憲政的秩序"},{"start":7504.838,"end":7520.393,"text":"至於這樣如此的法理的立場,針對本次的修正草案,我請提出兩點核心意見與具體的修法建議供各位委員及行政機關來參考第一個是關於修正草案中有關於主觀意圖與客觀危機的辯析"},{"start":7523.936,"end":7549.629,"text":"我的第一點意見 具體在草案當中有部分或新增的條文裡面特別是關於有關於主觀惡意的證明責任與客觀危險的也就是足以生危害的鎮定標準在行政院的版本裡面的關鍵條文是第二條第二款跟第三款的足以生國家危害與對社會的危害"},{"start":7550.809,"end":7574.359,"text":"這樣的立法技術在現行刑法體系與大法官解釋的意識下凡涉及到限制言論自由或政治性生活的刑事規範其違憲審查的標準都極為嚴格草案中若採以足以生損害於國家安全或社會安定作為客觀構成要件的話在實務操作上將面臨以下的憲法疑慮一"},{"start":7576.124,"end":7592.991,"text":"足以生這三個字概括性危險與證明責任的轉嫁足以生某某某某是危險在法律上屬於具體危險犯的不太一樣他關注的是行為本身在客觀情勢之下發生危害結果的可能性或傾向"},{"start":7593.951,"end":7605.633,"text":"然而當此概念應用於規則言論或表意行為的時候若缺乏嚴格的主觀要件加以平衡的話將導致國家刑法權的過度前置與擴張"},{"start":7607.148,"end":7624.19,"text":"我的核心關鍵在於,若法律僅要求行為客觀上足以生危害,而不要求國家證明行為連主觀上具有故意危害國家安全的特定意圖的話,將導致司法審判僅憑言論內的客觀傾向及於論罪"},{"start":7625.331,"end":7647.891,"text":"這在實務上將產生有果溯因的危險執法機關可能僅需證明某段言論在當時的政治和社會氛圍下有可能被敵對勢力利用或有可能引發社會不安即可認定其足以生危害甚至如果說我們的國家元首或者是我們的大院委員在公開言論上表達"},{"start":7649.953,"end":7670.708,"text":"我個人相當強烈的反對與對岸簽訂任何的和平協議如果這樣言論被視為足以生對岸對台灣的敵意的話那這個時候足以生這樣的一種立法技術反而有可能造成國家安全相當大的破壞所以"},{"start":7673.476,"end":7700.848,"text":"意圖要件作為人權保障的防火牆在相較之下若法律堅持要求意圖危害國家安全的主觀要件的話則國家必須負擔完整的舉證責任檢察官不能夠僅憑言論的內容本身而必須提出客觀的證據例如通訊記錄資金往來秘密盟約具體行動計畫等外部事實來證明行為人在主觀上確實懷有顛覆政府"},{"start":7701.943,"end":7723.581,"text":"破壞憲政秩序或協助敵對勢力的特定意惡意這種高門檻的正義責任是法治國家保障公民免受國家機器自以干預的重要防火牆它確保公民可以進行尖銳的政治批判學術探討或發表非主流的觀點只要不具備真正的惡意與具體的破壞行為"},{"start":7724.562,"end":7748.629,"text":"因此我強烈的建議在涉及限制言論表義或政治活動的國安法條文中必須堅持主觀特定意圖與客觀具體危險並重的雙重構成要件絕不能為了降低偵查或起訴的難度而剝離行為人在主觀惡意意見或僅憑抽象的危險推論來替代客觀證據的證明"},{"start":7751.26,"end":7780.049,"text":"第二點是關於危害國家安全或社會安全這個用語的籠統性與法律明確性原則的意見我的第二點意見是針對草案中頻繁出現的概括性用語也就是危害國家安全或社會安定這樣的用語呢我認為此類用語是過於籠統反而違反了刑法上的法律明確性原則而違反了法律明確性原則的話最大的問題如果在國家安全的要求上面的話會反而打擊到了不該打擊的人"},{"start":7780.629,"end":7800.233,"text":"而放掉了該打擊的人那麼大法官釋字第342號解釋等多號解釋均明確指出法律構成要件的規定其術語在法律上的意義必須需人民可預見且為司法審判所可解釋及適用者特別是涉及刑事處罰的規範其明確性的要求更高"},{"start":7803.394,"end":7820.414,"text":"若法律條文模糊不清賦予執法機關過大的財產權的話將導致人民無從預見行為的法律後果從而產生自我審查扼殺民主社會的活力同時也極導致選擇性執法使法律淪為政治鬥爭的工具"},{"start":7821.701,"end":7839.37,"text":"那麼國家安全與社會安定的概念如果無限的擴張風險的話將使得國家安全這個概念所謂的口袋化現代綜合安全的概念已涵蓋經濟 科技 資訊 能源等諸多領域如果法律不加以精確界定的話"},{"start":7840.49,"end":7860.911,"text":"任何反對政府科技 揭露政府弊端或正當的跨國交流都可能被貼上危害國家安全的標籤同樣的 在一個比國家安全更具主觀色彩的這個與政治敏感性的概念是社會安定這個概念在民主社會當中 示威遊動 示威遊行"},{"start":7862.913,"end":7886.396,"text":"激烈的辯論、公民不服從等行為本質上都會在某種程度上擾動社會的表面安定但這卻是民主活力的體現若將社會安定作為限制言論的理由的話且缺乏客觀的標準即被用來打壓社會運動與前置異議歷史的經驗告訴我們以維穩的民意行壓制之時往往是威權復辟的開始"},{"start":7887.984,"end":7915.743,"text":"因此我強烈的呼籲修正案應該用更精確的文字來界定危害國家及社會安定的客觀情況或界定標準而非沿用概括性的語言具體而言我覺得大院委員應該捨棄危害國家安全或社會安定此類抽象的形容詞轉而採取類型化的方法具體的列舉所謂保護的重大法義及對應的危險行為的樣態"},{"start":7918.504,"end":7939.934,"text":"将国家安全具体化为防止泄露特定国防机密防止对关键基础设施的实体破坏防止外国势力及以非法手段干涉民主选举等第二对社会安全的限制应严格限于"},{"start":7941.074,"end":7961.571,"text":"使用暴力 煽动他人使用暴力或实施恐怖活动等具体且迫切的危险形状唯有透过具体化的行为样态与主观要件才能够符合法律明确性的原则的要求并在维护国家安全与保障人民基本权利之间寻求动态且符合宪法的精神平衡"},{"start":7963.188,"end":7977.373,"text":"最後國家安全的維護呢不應該以犧牲民主法治的核心價值為代價一部好的國家安全法應該是一把精準的留意刀清楚的精確的能夠切除真正危害國家的毒瘤而不是一把粗糙的大掃把將"},{"start":7978.453,"end":8006.87,"text":"公民的自由與權利一併掃除我今天提出的兩點意見也就是堅持主觀意圖的客觀證明以及精確的界定危害國家安全跟社會安全的客觀標準其目的正在確保國家安全法的修正能夠在憲法的軌道上行使真正成為守護台灣憲政秩序的堅實的盾牌而非侵蝕民主基石的底穴以上意見提供給各位參考謝謝各位"},{"start":8008.597,"end":8023.486,"text":"非常感謝廖教授寶貴的意見,一趟路這樣子,感謝你,謝謝最後我們請今天列席的與會機關代表做一個回應我們請警政署副署長李文章,謝謝"},{"start":8030.152,"end":8054.1,"text":"主席還有各位專家學者先進還有各部會的代表剛剛今天受邀的專家學者在有關這部法令修正的方面大概提出很多具體的意見跟看法我相信這些意見跟看法將來這部法令修正的時候我們都會一併的納入來考量只做以上簡單的回應 謝謝"},{"start":8057.674,"end":8074.69,"text":"謝謝副署長今天的專家學者都已經發表完意見行政官員也都有列席感謝今天各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見所有出席列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料我們都"},{"start":8076.843,"end":8091.464,"text":"刊登公報,另外我們會另外製作公聽會的報告,送交全體委員以及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝各位今天的參與,謝謝大家今天公聽會到此結束,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}