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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":208.277,"end":210.503,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":298.626,"end":325.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":426.227,"end":426.45,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":461.732,"end":486.391,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":610.832,"end":610.915,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1044.343,"end":1045.691,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1162.142,"end":1163.183,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1234.735,"end":1237.114,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1311.602,"end":1315.506,"text":"好請組密報告初期人數好那現在開會進行這個報告事項那請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1331.162,"end":1337.508,"text":"歷來案第11屆第52期經濟委員會第三次全體委員會議事錄時間115年3月18日星期三9時至13時9分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱盈穎等14人列席委員劉明財等20人列席委員農業部部長陳俊濟等主席邱正"},{"start":1350.222,"end":1373.336,"text":"邱召集委員自委 報告事項一 先讀上市會議事錄 決定 確定二 邀請農業部部長列行報告依依概況並備質詢農業部部長陳俊濟報告後委員邱瑩穎等25人提出質詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟等即席答覆 決定一 登記發言人除不在場者外區域經與發言人必須待結束二 委員徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1374.496,"end":1382.081,"text":"3 書面質詢及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內與書面答覆並附資本會為另有要求期限者從其鎖定 散會 宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1392.099,"end":1415.346,"text":"因為在場委員還不到三人所以我們等一下再確定議事錄再來繼續進行報告事項請宣讀報告事項邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢邀請經濟部部長說台灣電力股股份有限公司董事長就核二核三廠自主安全檢查現況與再運轉計畫及政府重啟核電三原則之歷年進度與現況說明進行報告並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1432.64,"end":1445.349,"text":"在本日議程排定經濟部業務報告及這個核二核三自主安全檢查現況與再運轉的計畫及政府重啟核電三原則之歷年進度與現況說明的專題報告"},{"start":1450.844,"end":1455.759,"text":"再請經濟部龔明星部長一併報告兩案子那時間15分鐘"},{"start":1471.651,"end":1497.599,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家早安那首先我就向各位委員簡要的報告一下經濟部的業務那我想全世界經濟狀況今年的狀況跟去年基本上會差不多但是稍微小一點點經濟成長率那現在有中東的情勢所以可能會少一點下一頁那台灣的部分基本上"},{"start":1499.505,"end":1507.81,"text":"就是越往時間越後面的話他的預估的值是越高不過一般來講基本上都今年經濟成長率應該會超過5%以上下一頁"},{"start":1511.963,"end":1536.05,"text":"那經濟部的施政方向大概有八個重點一個大概就是協助企業因應中東情勢還有全世界的因應變局包括對等關稅那第二項就是五大信貸產業的推動第三個是傳統產業跟服務業的升級第四個是中小微振興的發展第五個是投資跟全球佈局第六個是穩定電源第七個是治水第八個是優質的產業環境"},{"start":1537.731,"end":1566.146,"text":"以下向各位報告那有關於因應的這個中東情勢的部分呢那我們還是會天然氣的部分基本上五月份大概已經陸續到位了那六月份也現在在調度當中那這個平穩機制油價的部分也開始啟動然後另外就是我們三月份的是瓦斯桶的部分桶中瓦斯是基本上不調整四月份開始液化石油氣的這個貨物稅開始有減增請看下一頁"},{"start":1567.236,"end":1595.89,"text":"那有关于因应关税政策的变化支持这个支持产业的这个措施持续在进行当中那进一步编列的大概是460亿那基本上这个四大措施目前来讲有超过了大概6000多件已经完成审查而且获得这个协助那基本上来讲就是四大外销的贷款还有中小微的贷款加码还有这个转型升级以及多元市场的开拓再看下一页"},{"start":1596.892,"end":1620.687,"text":"那第二個是持續推動五大信賴產業那五大信賴產業在2025年的時候基本上整體產值已經超過10兆元那我們持續會來推動這樣產業半導體的重點主要在西光石還有透過這個APROS計畫跟國際的半導體加強合作人工智慧的部分還是在人工智慧導入百工百業的部分那我們希望在2026年的普及率可以提升到30%請看下一頁"},{"start":1622.828,"end":1635.417,"text":"次世代通訊主要是低軌衛星跟地面的加強的聯繫軍工產業主要在無人機的一些推動第三個是對傳統產業跟服務業升級的轉型現在來講的話就是我們啟動了產業競爭力的輔導團目前從2025年10月開始輔導已經有4400多家其中AI輔導已經有1500多家請看下一頁"},{"start":1653.086,"end":1675.458,"text":"那另外對於不管是生技、石化、紡織、機械基本上都有推動的這個重點主要還是這個差異化的產品還有高質化的一些分析還有數位這個轉型的協助請看下一頁那另外在服務業的部分主要還是在智慧創新跟永續發展的這個協助前人的部分請看下一頁"},{"start":1676.741,"end":1695.819,"text":"那對於中小微企業的振興發展那主要還是在於這個資金上的協助還有智慧升級跟淨零傳情上的一些協助那從這個到從2025年開始到現在3月12號為止總共累積的諮詢跟輔導家數已經來到了26萬家以上再下一頁"},{"start":1701.141,"end":1726.568,"text":"那投資的部分投資台灣的三大方案我們會再延遲而且呢適用範圍在擴大包括海外的台商跟外人投資也都可以適用再看下一頁然後外商來台灣的部分去年也一樣超過了100億美金那主要也是歐盟還有日本跟美國的部分也持續的對台灣加強投資包括"},{"start":1728.406,"end":1751.191,"text":"之前的這個美光作為案例來講還有Media看下一頁然後國際的經貿合作的部分之前台美之間再一輪的這個經濟火貿對話就是EPPD有一輪的對話那其他的也簽署了很多多項的MOU我想這個請委員參考下一頁下一頁"},{"start":1754.877,"end":1764.87,"text":"然後台灣的貿易投資公司基本上已經成立了四個預計我們很快的美國會再增加亞利桑那的部分再下一頁"},{"start":1766.837,"end":1794.59,"text":"然後在電力的供應穩定的部分今年會有新增的四部的燃氣機組這個容量就是大容量的總共加起來會有520萬千瓦就是5.2G這是量非常大所以今年我們最重要的工作就是這個四部機組讓它如期如期的並聯那這個並聯以後事實上讓我們這個供電量可以增加將近10%以上所以這個是非常重要一件事情再看一下"},{"start":1795.936,"end":1822.02,"text":"那另外就是針對綠能的多元發展持續的來支持包括離岸風電我們三次站也要開始啟動然後太陽光電地熱清冷小水地都有相關的計畫在做推動穩定供水的部分那今年水情是比較差的所以我們也啟動了這個因應的這個小組每天的瞭解狀況來做一些因應看一下"},{"start":1823.581,"end":1847.492,"text":"那治水的部分呢除了中央管的這個河川的治理那今年最重要的是縣市管河川這個1000億的這個縣市管河川的改善開始啟動那其他的部分就是包括園區開發的強化還有地質的調查跟商品的檢驗這個我們都會努力來進行那也會深化國際制裁權的一些相關合作"},{"start":1849.724,"end":1865.145,"text":"就是说面对全球经济上的一些变局导致台湾成为国际经贸的关键伙伴这个是我们来年最重要的一个政策方向以上是经济部今年的重要的业务报告"},{"start":1865.706,"end":1884.107,"text":"那再來就是向各位委員報告就是核二核三廠自主安全檢查現況跟再運轉計畫以及政府重啟核電三原則歷年的進度跟現況的說明報告那也非常感謝貴委員會邀請本部就這項的報告進行說明"},{"start":1887.096,"end":1910.231,"text":"那我想首先向各位報告的是說台灣的核能政策因應時空背景民意曾經歷經多次的轉折2002年的時候環境基本法來明定了這個非核家園的長期願景但是在2011年的時候因為福島發生了核災所以導致當時的政府確立了這個"},{"start":1911.212,"end":1929.405,"text":"核一、核二、核三就不再研議的政策2014年那時候更宣布了核四封存但是到了2021年也進行了這個核四重啟公投但是並沒有通過但是到了現在因為國際對於淨零碳排的要求環境也產生變化那2025年的5月大院也通過了"},{"start":1934.829,"end":1955.769,"text":"這個核子反應器的設施的管制法就是核管法第六條的修正案建立了我國核能電廠執照換屆以後仍可以依法申請換發的這個法源基礎那為核電重啟提供了這個法律跟制度上的依據那前接的這個核管法的第六條修正條文未來"},{"start":1956.67,"end":1975.668,"text":"持续的使用核能需同时落实两个必要条件第一个是有关于核安会依法定定的安全审查的程序办法第二个呢台联公司呢依照这个办法来执行自主的安全检查核安会也在这个2025年的10月8号正式的公布了"},{"start":1976.148,"end":2005.248,"text":"核磁反应器的设施运转执照申请的审核办法的修正的内容那明定的规范的经营者在申请运转执照换发跟机组重启的时候应该备妥的这些评估报告还有再运转的计划并且依法向主管机关申请的程序那本部已经在去年11月27号核定的台电公司各个核能的电厂的现况评估报告"},{"start":2006.128,"end":2027.851,"text":"那那個報告已經詳實的檢視了機組的設備維護人力的配置還有地質的耐震條件以及安全檢查的關鍵的面向本部也同意台電公司對各個核電廠的初步的評估報告核一廠基本上是不具有再運轉的可能性應該要加速的處理"},{"start":2028.531,"end":2052.703,"text":"核二核三则判定具有再运转的条件台新公司依法同步进行自主安全检查以及延提再运转的计划但这个再运转的计划的内容包括了机组的现况还有计划的排程第二个组织的人力配置跟训练第三个是设施再运转的工项还有定期的维护第四个运转的文件的恢复的规划"},{"start":2053.563,"end":2081.021,"text":"第五个品质查证的方法还有集合的计划台湾公司预计在三月底会提出再运转的计划到核安会去审查台湾公司自主安全检查的项目是为了评估电厂各项的设施设备组建在受期40年期满以后它可以延长再运转的年限它的内容包括了"},{"start":2081.761,"end":2105.01,"text":"第一個是有關於整體性老化評估跟老化的管理第二個是現實老化的分析第三個是中期安全分析報告還有運轉技術規範的徵修內容第四個是輻射相關議題跟審核的評估第五個是耐震的安全評估說明第六個其他經主管機關指定的文件就是核安會"},{"start":2106.511,"end":2133.238,"text":"那至於說是核二廠的執行現況因為要等到乾式儲存的設施完工並且幫將這個反應爐裡面用過的燃料棒把它移出來才可以進行反應爐裡面關鍵的安全檢查的功效那整體安全檢查的這個時程要比核三廠要比較來得久那本部將嚴格督導台電公司執行各項的自主安全檢查"},{"start":2133.618,"end":2158.806,"text":"那台電公司在檢查完成以後呢也將安排國外的專業機構進行這個技術的同儕評 也就是Peer Review最終要送到核安會去做審查以確保整體作業的品質是符合國際的安全標準那有關於是否重啟這個核電的評估需在這個核安的確保以後核廢料可以處理以及世衛公司的三原則來審慎以對"},{"start":2161.365,"end":2181.882,"text":"首先在核安方面那核能安全委員會已經在去年10月18號修正了這個核磁反應器的設施的運轉執照的申請辦法的部分條文那增訂了核安運轉的執照期滿以後重啟的一些條件那本部會依法行政遵循這個核安委所訂的相關規範來處理"},{"start":2184.105,"end":2202.259,"text":"其次在核廢料的部分本部長期以來均有神秘的處理規劃並且依循國際慣常的處理方式依循的處理是短期的暫時儲存這個是在燃料池濕式的第二個中期是乾式的儲存"},{"start":2202.779,"end":2220.772,"text":"那第三個就是最終的處置三個階段來做一些處理那目前無論是燃營或各核電廠已經運轉的低階核廢料儲存或者是台電公司新建用過的這個燃料的乾式儲存廠均受到這個嚴密的督管"},{"start":2221.687,"end":2236.163,"text":"另外本部也在去年成立了這個放射性廢棄物的處置的專案辦公室來穩定推動這個核廢料最終的處置的選址的立法作業最後為了尋求社會共識本部跟台灣公司持續就"},{"start":2238.018,"end":2260.658,"text":"核電廠的重啟外界關心的比如說自我安全檢查等等的相關議題跟外界持續來溝通那有關於核電的重啟本部將以開放跟省慎的態度評估是否滿足三原則並且對新式的核能的技術也保持著開放的態度持續追蹤國際發展的趨勢以及承諾核配料最終的處置廠"},{"start":2261.479,"end":2290.006,"text":"不會放在目前的核電廠以內本部並致力於依法科學透明的核安管理制度確保台電公司嚴格的執行核能電廠自主安全檢查跟再運轉的準備工作一項報告進行指教好謝謝工部長的一個報告那介紹一下這一個在場的一個委員我們有邱毅英委員"},{"start":2293.035,"end":2320.062,"text":"然後我們這邊有經濟部部長龔明新商業發展署署長蘇文玲在產業發展署署長邱求慧國際貿易署署長劉維蓮民運署代理署長吳志偉中小企新創企業署署長李冠志水利署署長林元鵬"},{"start":2323.099,"end":2348.764,"text":"智慧財產局局長廖承威產業園區管理局局長楊志欽標準檢驗局局長陳怡伶地質調查及礦業管理中心主任徐明洪經貿人員培訓所代理所長陳婉玉工商輔導中心參事監主任雲瑞"},{"start":2351.104,"end":2366.727,"text":"台電公司董事長曾潤生台狼公司董事長吳明昌台水公司董事長李佳龍中油公司董事長方振仁以上謝謝各位單位首長的一個蒞臨"},{"start":2374.411,"end":2401.585,"text":"好那接下來請這個台灣電力公司曾文森董事長報告預計10分鐘謝謝主席各位委員還有各位關心核能的先進大家早安剛剛我們國務部長其實針對整個核核三的核核三兩個電廠的自主安全檢查現況跟專案轉計畫以及政府重啟核電三原則"},{"start":2402.445,"end":2423.043,"text":"的歷年進度與宣告說明已經做了一個完整的說明那台電公司僅僅針對一些部分就是我們現在執行的部分做補充那首先第一件事情是台電公司這整個工作的程序事實上在去年核管法修法完成以後再加上核安會頒訂了相關執法"},{"start":2424.884,"end":2448.5,"text":"開始啟動這些相關的工作那在主要的工作是第一件事是核管法的修訂公告後台電公司就進行我們的機組的維護的一些相關的工作同時我們也展開123場的現況評估那在去年的11月27號那經過台電自己內部的評估之後"},{"start":2449.02,"end":2470.854,"text":"我們提報給經濟部我們判斷說核二廠跟核三廠還有再運轉的可能性那我們就依照了整個運轉執照申請審核辦法開始啟動整個運轉執照申請換發的一些相關的工作那這就是所謂的自主安全檢查的一些相關工作那同時"},{"start":2471.895,"end":2492.635,"text":"我們也依據核子反應器設施運轉執照申請辦法第16條之一 延提再運轉計畫那第16條之一事實上是一個新的規定它的規範是所謂的再運轉計畫那它之所以叫再運轉計畫是因為我們的所有的核電廠都是在執照屆期之後"},{"start":2494.023,"end":2513.973,"text":"要考慮重新啟動那在這樣子的狀況需要提出一個再運轉計畫來銜接後面的所謂的運轉執照換發申請的一些相關工作那現在針對所謂的再運轉計畫它主要的內容大概有幾項就依照我們的那個"},{"start":2515.114,"end":2530.196,"text":"核子反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条之一的规定那它主要的内容是要撰写说有关于你要再运转的电厂的厂址基础现况计划排程"},{"start":2531.192,"end":2559.05,"text":"第二點是組織人力配置訓練規劃第三點是設施再運轉工作項目定期維護跟檢查規劃那第四項是運轉期間的規範跟運轉文件恢復之規劃那第五個是品質查證的方案及稽查計畫那跟委員會報告這一些相關的內容事實上是電廠在有執照的時候在運轉的時候都要做的相關工作"},{"start":2559.89,"end":2577.322,"text":"意思是台電公司要把這兩個電廠如果你要提出執照換發申請你必須先確定說這兩個電廠它的狀態是跟執照借期前一樣的所以這個再運轉計畫的主要內容是確保這機組是跟那個"},{"start":2580.945,"end":2605.305,"text":"它在执照届期前相同的状态那至于它能不能够焕发执照展延运转事实上是回到就是我们原来规划原来的那个反应器设施运转执照申请审核办法第16条那是过去研议都会用到了这一条规定这一条里面的相关规定是包含了整体老化评估老化管理"},{"start":2605.985,"end":2620.121,"text":"实现老化分析相关中期安全分析报告运转技术规范的征修内容还有辐射相关议题的查核评估报告耐震安全评估说明以及其他竞逐管机关指定之文件"},{"start":2620.902,"end":2648.224,"text":"那這一次的修訂其實多了輻射相關議題查核評估報告跟耐震安全評估報告那這個部分其實台電公司就會依照著執照要展延去評估我們機組是不是能夠承擔一定執照申請期限的一些老化狀況來做的一些評估也就是所謂的自主安全檢查而自主安全檢查這個工作讓台電正在做"},{"start":2649.105,"end":2669.288,"text":"正在做那我們已經跟國內外的廠商簽約也辦理了相關的安全分析檢測跟檢查等等的工作那尤其是河島區的部分事實上我們也找了原廠回來跟台電一起進行相關的安全檢查工作那這是河山那河二的部分呢"},{"start":2669.969,"end":2687.707,"text":"因為它事實上大家都知道核二的一號機是在執照未屆期前就停止運轉主要的原因是因為它的爐心的燃料棒沒辦法退出也就是我們沒有取到乾除執照那這個乾除執照一直到2024年才拿到才開始陸續進行那個"},{"start":2691.331,"end":2718.992,"text":"才開始陸續進行我們的燃料棒退出的工作所以他現在要等室外乾除儲存設施完工把反應爐內用過的燃料棒移出才可以開始進行反應爐內部的自主安全檢查所以剛才部長報告也有特別提到說核二廠的自主安全檢查事實上要先處理乾除這一段才有辦法進到自主安全檢查的階段那至於國人非常關心的核二端的議題"},{"start":2719.943,"end":2744.096,"text":"那也就是那個核能廚藝尤其大家關心就是用過的高階核廢料那它的最終處置的問題事實上台電也是採取國際上的一些比較普遍的做法它是分階段的管理模式那當然有短期的暫時儲存、乾式儲存以及最終儲存三個階段那金融部跟台電也是依循著這個國際的做法"},{"start":2745.737,"end":2771.264,"text":"在推動相關制度的建置跟設施的規劃能夠確保各個階段都能夠對應必要的技術跟管理機制其實國人一定最關心的就是核廢料最終處置到底要怎麼做事實上這個工作有兩個部分第一個部分是技術工程就是什麼樣的技術在台灣是有可能可以做到的"},{"start":2771.624,"end":2795.137,"text":"那這個部分事實上台電也好經濟部能源署也好也跟民間關心這個議題的團體進行過很多的不管是公開的座談或是溝通就是我們最重要其實要找到適當的地點找到適當的母源所以技術工程是一個重要的工作那除了這個以外社會工程也就是溝通這個工作也非常非常的重要"},{"start":2795.757,"end":2818.614,"text":"那台電事實上針對這兩個部分都有在推動跟進行相關的工作那經濟部也在著手收集國際上各個國家針對高階核廢料最終處置他的選址的一些社會共識形成的辦法在拟據選址的一些相關的條例"},{"start":2819.335,"end":2834.282,"text":"那同時也成立了放射性廢棄物處置專案辦公室來推動相關協助推動相關的法制作業跟社會溝通那最重要的是我們希望能夠建立公開透明的程序達成核廢料最終處置的目標"},{"start":2835.424,"end":2853.981,"text":"那在短期措施方面剛剛已經跟各位報告就是針對用過核燃料退出作業核一廠已經在2024年5月10號取得水土保持變更設計的規定他可以開始進行那個燃料棒的退出工作那核二廠在2024年的8月10號"},{"start":2856.863,"end":2885.582,"text":"取得了水土保持計畫的核准就是它可以開始蓋乾除廠那我們可以用依據這個來啟動用過燃料棒移轉到室外乾除的相關設施的作業那除此之外目前合一廠跟合二廠合三廠它的室內室外合一廠跟合二廠的室外乾除設施已經完成現在要取得核安會的許可取得正式的運轉執照"},{"start":2887.023,"end":2902.163,"text":"那同時合一二三廠我們也在同步規劃進行室內乾式儲存的相關方案因為我們原來規劃的室外乾式儲存廠要有足夠的容量擴充我們需要進行第一個階段室內乾式儲存的相關方案"},{"start":2903.144,"end":2919.527,"text":"這是有關於核後端的工作部分那針對這個後端的相關工作經營部跟台電一定會依循國際的做法積極來推動相關的制度建置跟設施規劃確保那個階段都具備跟對應有具備跟對應的技術和管理"},{"start":2921.308,"end":2943.76,"text":"資質來符合安全的需求那整體而言我們的整個路徑是參考國際路徑在進行我們也希望能夠持續精進管理機制達到最終處置的目標最後台電公司事實上所有的工作推動都是依照著法令的規範在進行也是依照著這個法令的時間在推動必要的相關工作那"},{"start":2944.46,"end":2958.832,"text":"以上僅就台電公司核電廠再運轉的規劃以及推動現況跟核貨端處置的情形進行報告請各位委員予以指教 謝謝好 謝謝張文村董事長的報告"},{"start":2963.787,"end":2987.461,"text":"報告事項兩岸合併進行巡打委員質詢前原例做以下的一個宣告第一 每位委員的發言時間本會的委員5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘第二 上午10點30分截止登記發言登記"},{"start":2989.161,"end":3017.862,"text":"那首先的話呢我們請登記第一位的邱映委員發言謝謝主席我請一下部長那是不是也請台電曾董事長好邱委員早安部長早"},{"start":3019.35,"end":3046.722,"text":"我想这个我们还是直接切入主题今天时间很短这个中东的战争其实对于我们很多国家全世界面临的能源的风险跟整个结构的调整台湾其实是高度仰赖进口能源而且这个进口能源要经过赫姆兹海峡所以大家其实现在蛮担心的到底我们的能源储存的量能"},{"start":3047.282,"end":3055.918,"text":"或者是說我們的能源構置的量能到底夠不夠不想跟你討論一下我們現在天然氣的佔比大概是佔台灣整體的這個"},{"start":3057.743,"end":3086.558,"text":"發電量應該是50%左右接近50%接近50%那我們現在整個在台灣的整體的經濟產業包括AI產業的用電成長其實是大幅的增加所以依賴單一能源的這個風險其實就會被不斷的放大部長我想請教一下您剛剛的報告裡頭其實也有特別提到就是說我們的所謂的這一些天然氣或者是我們的能源的儲存"},{"start":3087.418,"end":3102.552,"text":"包括賴總統特別強調核能跟綠能可以並行不備所以我們的能源政策是要轉向多元組合跟這個韌性治理是不是這樣是的國內比較關心的一件事情就是說到底我們現在的能源儲備"},{"start":3104.213,"end":3126.125,"text":"到什麼樣的階段我不會問你說有多少天但是我想要知道的是我們是不是達到安全的足夠存量第二個您剛剛有特別提到您現在的貨源調度上面是不是能夠確保在台灣的能源供應是安全無虞這一點請部長先回答"},{"start":3127.26,"end":3144.117,"text":"謝謝委員分成兩個部分一個部分就是中長期的能源規劃就像委員提到的我們是有任何只要安全的能源我們都會去嘗試包括再生能源也好或者是天然氣發電也好甚至於燃煤的部分轉成備用也好"},{"start":3144.617,"end":3173.713,"text":"那这个都会持续来做一些推动那短期间来讲您刚才提到的就是说因为中东战事的原因那我们刚刚提到这个天然气的发电接近50%所以天然气的调度就变得非常重要那我们现在储存的这个法令的规范是大概要11天那我们现在储存大概都有12天从228开始就是战争以后到现在为止都维持在12天以上目前来讲"},{"start":3174.193,"end":3189.972,"text":"所以這個那調度的部分是3月份4月份5月份大概調度都已經完成那6月份的部分呢我們大概有一半也調度完成了所以就是說我們會持續的把這個安定性把它穩定下來那這樣的話就發電的部分就可以獲得一些確保沒有問題"},{"start":3191.273,"end":3206.292,"text":"我想這個我們在談到台灣的整體的發電或者是能源的發展過去包括我們在談到的所有的綠能產業不管是風力發電太陽能發電水力發電甚至氫能發電台灣在這個多元能源的這個"},{"start":3207.954,"end":3234.816,"text":"任性治理上面 在配比上面我不曉得經濟部是不是也有趁著這一波的所謂的中東局勢的這樣的一個對於全球能源造成的危機上面你們在配比上有沒有去重新做配置或有沒有做重新做檢討跟調整對於台灣的整體能源發展上面有沒有一個更完整的政策未來可以來跟國人做說明的 有沒有"},{"start":3235.62,"end":3253.192,"text":"是 包委員因為整個我們就像委員剛剛提到的我們用電量的確是大幅的增加所以任何只要安全性的能源我們都會去嘗試剛剛您提到的再生能源部長我現在跟你講的不是嘗試的問題我講的是說我們其實有幾項東西已經在發展當中"},{"start":3258.516,"end":3273.016,"text":"那你的配比上面配比的部分你不能跟我講常識就是說我們現有的包括水力發電太陽能發電或者是未來的氫能甚至地熱等等這些能源配比上面你在整體的"},{"start":3274.217,"end":3280.101,"text":"能源韌性治理政策上面有沒有在做過一些調整或者是說你們有沒有通盤的去做一項這樣子的產業或者是政策調整能源政策的做調整有沒有 我們現在嘗試在做調整因為這個因應於"},{"start":3290.848,"end":3315.028,"text":"這個核能重啟會不會重啟我們現在還不確定嘛如果一旦確定有重啟的機會來講的話能源配比就會產生一些改變嘛然後這個最主要它是分母變得非常非常快因為用電需求變得非常大所以分母也在變然後分子也在變所以你說要定在某一個目標來講的話說老實話以現階段來講有點困難你可能在誤解我的意思好沒關係那我現在再接下來請教齁"},{"start":3316.369,"end":3343.508,"text":"如果說因應這樣的一個用電政策包括我們現在談到的核能跟綠能要並行不備所以經濟部包括台電也開始啟動所謂的核二核三再運轉的可行性評估我要進一步請教我們的所謂的核二核三的再運轉的定位是什麼是短期的備援呢還是過度的電源還是長期穩定積載的一部分"},{"start":3345.795,"end":3352.082,"text":"因為現在從起現在在自主安全檢查那自主安全檢查能夠有多少的這個"},{"start":3354.464,"end":3366.169,"text":"時間齁 要看檢查的結果啦那當然最長 能夠有多少的時間是說要花多少時間 還是說要發電 發電可以發多久 發電可以發多久那你的安全檢查需要多久的時間你現在有沒有評估出來 還是台電台電的部分 能不能說明一下你們現在的安全評估的這整個時程你預計大概要花多久的時間 跟委員報告 我覺得台電交"},{"start":3380.194,"end":3404.382,"text":"交自主安全檢查報告我們在準備這個報告的時間我們一直都是估計就是18個月到兩年之間好那我們現在也是在我們現在預計的時間也是在這個範圍內那最主要就是檢查下來以後發現的各種狀況都還可能會有不同這個不是我們現在馬上可以講不過到目前為止我們的估計就是這個時間好那這兩年之內"},{"start":3407.583,"end":3431.094,"text":"如何跟社會大眾做對話 包括你的核廢料的最終處置包括你的核安 核能安全 包括你的如何要取得社會的共識這個部分要如何來跟社會做對話跟委員報告 就是我們現在當然一個比較大的難題或是全世界都還在試著解決的是用過燃料棒"},{"start":3432.099,"end":3457.546,"text":"高階的最終處置現在其實除了芬蘭以外其實還不見得有很明確的有些國家就瑞典、芬蘭、北歐國家其他國家都還在找那台灣也會繼續來找最重要我們是能夠選址那低放的部分我們有一些目標的地點其實我們有在進行當地社區的溝通工作那安全的部分其實我們的報告交給核安會核安會依據過去的慣例"},{"start":3459.646,"end":3478.848,"text":"他會有一定程度的揭露就他審查一段階段他會揭露那這個都是公開透明資訊的一部分好我想這個我的時間也到了我就不耽誤最後一個小提醒部長我覺得在能源安全的議題上面台灣一定要有具備自主供應自己能源的這樣的一個能力是的"},{"start":3479.749,"end":3495.021,"text":"包括我們對於天然氣的仰賴或者是說其他多元能源替代的這些方案的的這些規劃我想這個部分經濟部應該要及早去做因應去做調整喔第二台灣自己應該也要有"},{"start":3495.501,"end":3519.139,"text":"足夠的能力去做不管是油田天然氣的這些碳採我知道過去中油有在做那我不知道最近這一段時間到底中油在這一部分是不是有受到政府的重視或者是有受到中油自己母公司的重視在這個油氣油田地熱的碳採的部分董事長您不用上來因為我時間已經到了我只是要提醒一件事情"},{"start":3520.019,"end":3545.148,"text":"對於我們自主能源的這個安全設定上面我想這個經濟部責無旁貸而且是應該要積極加速的去進行規劃好不好是 謝謝好 謝謝邱映委員邱委員請等一下在場人數委員足三人那請問各位同仁上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤好 沒有錯誤的話我們議事錄就確定"},{"start":3547.657,"end":3560.106,"text":"好 我們請下一位楊瓊英委員 謝謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長我們邀請龔部長"},{"start":3565.734,"end":3588.679,"text":"我們來探討人民的納稅錢要怎麼樣讓人民的納稅錢可以不隨風消失而且是可以追回來的還我們人民納稅錢的一個公道所以本期要請教經濟部來推動離岸風電這個發電它分為三個部分第一個是示範專案第二個是在遴選潛力的這個風場"},{"start":3591.36,"end":3617.931,"text":"第三個是淨價區塊的一個開發那這個案子允仁風場是第二階段零選風場他售電的對象都是給我們台電公司20年的囤購合約他的平均價格是5.8塊一度那台電實際上他也以前高後低也就是前10年以比較高的7.1177元"},{"start":3621.192,"end":3637.995,"text":"後10年是以3.56685元來作為囤購的價格這樣子的方式雖然有幫助於開發商在取得融資但是也有利於原始股東能夠快速的拖"},{"start":3639.396,"end":3665.007,"text":"這個股權進行套利這一點也是我們必須要注意的所以本席要再來請教那既然有領選那就必須要經過經濟部嚴格的一個審查評審的他的項目是什麼呢是技術能力60%財務能力40%所以本席要請問如果財務能力發生了問題那誰該負責請教部長請教部長"},{"start":3668.928,"end":3680.962,"text":"基本上我們在做審查的時候就會有比較好的這個財務就是他評估啦評估他有這樣的財務能力所以當他出現了財務問題的時候那誰必須要負責誰必須要負責他股權變更啊等等的一些情況我們也都要審查啦"},{"start":3688.581,"end":3704.585,"text":"都是經濟部也是要負其責嘛因為你是經過經濟部嚴格的審查跟遴選嘛對不對審查委員會是獨立的啦獨立的審查委員會來做審查當然我們是主管機關當然也要有監督的責任有監督的責任好所以繼續我們來討論2020年"},{"start":3709.406,"end":3724.775,"text":"這個依照合約的完工他是跳票的2020年因為呢在原先的契約裡頭他必須行政契約他必須兩年那在2020年12月29號他要完工並聯他的進度慘不忍睹"},{"start":3725.935,"end":3740.306,"text":"產不能賭 到了完工期限截止的時候 原先要80座的這個風機只完成了3座 那換句話說工期是嚴重的延誤那在2021年第一次的違法事故 經濟部華園的部分是華園來換特權"},{"start":3747.11,"end":3760.039,"text":"違反了你自己持股的規定在5月中的時候呢大股東達德他以破產為理由要求從100%希望能夠降為25%這是違反了你經濟部規定啊開發商的持股不得低於50%的鐵率對不對啊 部長基本上都有根據相關的規定來罰款啊"},{"start":3773.32,"end":3776.282,"text":"是不是我們有規定開發商事故不得低於50%的這個鐵律 有沒有請問有沒有 有這樣規定所以他從100%要希望降為25% 有沒有違法"},{"start":3791.15,"end":3802.056,"text":"他違反規定但是罰款就是等於好你的罰款你最後通牒是輕罰你當時只沒收了19億的履約保證金來做處分對不對詳細的狀況我可能要去查一下這非常個案這麼重大不是個案問題因為你的會議決議禁令經濟部在5月21號的會議當中你明確的去決議喔引燃所有的精油的股東"},{"start":3820.865,"end":3829.768,"text":"以及新增的股東在取得我們電業執照錢你不得再移轉以及變更的部分否則要怎麼樣加重計法對不對這是在5月21號你們你們所做出的決議喔對不對"},{"start":3838.584,"end":3847.934,"text":"因為這個是2021年的事情,我實在要去了解一下,完全了解一下你今天是我們經濟部長,你繼續聽,2023年第二次的違法優勢股在這樣的情況之下,竟然能夠在海外完成了交易將所有的剩餘的股權全部賣給GIP"},{"start":3860.507,"end":3882.579,"text":"美國的基金 那等於是我們的官員集體的來縱容那面對第二次的公然違規經濟部 你做什麼處分呢第二次又違規 當然你已經有說了我們有行政效率 我們有行政契約第二次又違規的時候 你有沒有車照 你有沒有重罰 請問有沒有"},{"start":3885.446,"end":3897.21,"text":"同仁跟我講這個按照這個合約啊來進行啊還是因為有簽合約嘛就按照這個合約來做處置啊怎麼處置就是怎麼處置你要再重罰請問到目前為止有沒有重罰有罰到最後100%變成之零金蟬脫殼那請問有沒有重罰19億的沒收接下來又違規有沒有重罰我們罰"},{"start":3914.755,"end":3918.96,"text":"有沒有中罰還是有罰錢有罰錢怎麼罰我們有依規定罰錢怎麼罰那個時候是罰了3.5億部長"},{"start":3930.31,"end":3934.293,"text":"依照我們的契約裡頭5月21號的一個規定說要與能不能再辦理變更如果再有違規要依行政契約以迴避成本2.13元每一度囤購5年作為罰金你們發了多少如果依照這樣計算是411億是人民的納稅錢耶你們發了多少請說明"},{"start":3960.333,"end":3971.557,"text":"你們發了多少請說明我們再瞭解一下那個時候我同仁跟我講是說那時候是發了3.5億人部長你聽到這個數字他已經開始運轉411億你更應當為人民依法行政契約要討回來對不對還人民公道啊你既然違法再違法"},{"start":3991.411,"end":3995.696,"text":"那竟然經濟部我們今天問的通通都不知道那人民的納稅錢411億要怎麼辦要怎麼辦"},{"start":3999.839,"end":4004.843,"text":"請教部長 在違法的情況之下 請教部長 沒關係我們講原則依法行政對不對 一定要依法行政 違規再違規延期再延期 在這樣的一個情況之下你們行政部門 經濟部該當為人民怎麼樣討回411億 你會不會去追"},{"start":4022.717,"end":4035.405,"text":"我們還是要看這個當時的合約怎麼處置要依合約來辦理我相信同仁還是所有同仁都會依合約來做處置但是我還是要回去了解一下"},{"start":4036.806,"end":4049.616,"text":"你說你還是要回去了解一下所以本席具體跟你建議第一個本席要求我們 趙偉我們可以辦一個專案報告這很重要因為綠能不能這樣亂搞讓我們的人民不知所措我們希望要有正規依照行政契約竟然違法再違法從100%已經金蟬托克到0%的一個股權"},{"start":4063.246,"end":4064.067,"text":"我們經濟部相關單位你是遴選主管機關單位你竟然你竟然還說我要再瞭解看看"},{"start":4071.926,"end":4076.109,"text":"已經在刪轉應該要直接扣除以迴避成本的2點多塊還人民一個公道啦所以本期具體要求第一個專案報告要求經濟部針對於離岸風電違反行政契約與事故規定以及供其展延的黑箱在兩週內向經濟委員會提出專案報告"},{"start":4096.545,"end":4105.192,"text":"第二個追回罰金我要求台電重新核算引人風場因繳納的違約罰金並從今年度的台電購電預算當中直接刪除撥款金額不得由納稅人來補貼這五年是當時曾文森次長所主持的會議他非常有guess第一個如果再違法要必須追繳這五年的一個罰金而且以迴避成本對不對"},{"start":4126.247,"end":4128.449,"text":"所以你應該要依照你的會議記錄而去執行之現在他已經在供電這樣的一個情況追回人民的納稅錢不得由人民納稅錢來補貼411億部長"},{"start":4142.623,"end":4145.486,"text":"第三個要追究政治責任遴選制度首先出現這麼嚴重的財務問題以及股權的一個爭議要求當時到底是誰簽了同意"},{"start":4157.958,"end":4160.019,"text":"股權轉讓的官員名單釐清是否有涉及公務員員的一個圖利問題因為這是一個非常重大的案件我們希望要正本清源讓所有的綠電可以走上軌道可以走上軌道而不是圖利某特定的一個國外的廠商這個對我們台灣來講"},{"start":4180.393,"end":4183.235,"text":"所有最後賣給台灣的廠商最後我們的經濟部以及人民必須要承起這一切的承擔那這個對於人民來講太不公道所以我再一次的強調我再次的強調 部長你說你要查 我也願意讓你查請你盡速把答案告訴我們"},{"start":4202.168,"end":4206.751,"text":"411億依照5月21號的決議那麼什麼時候會追回這411億還給人民的納稅錢這是非常的重要的部長 剛剛本席的要求請做說明我會去了解那剛剛本席所說的這三點依照剛剛本席的要求盡快將資料給本席跟給我們的經濟委員會來做專案報告"},{"start":4229.346,"end":4242.196,"text":"那411億到底要怎麼樣追回 你也承諾要追回 那至於方式請你盡快告訴我們不要讓人民有所不知所措不知道我們的納稅錢到底是怎麼樣被刮走的"},{"start":4245.615,"end":4253.4,"text":"我想請這個工部長就是就這樣子的一個要求可能兩週內先交書面報告到我們這個委員會來那另外的話這個報告裡頭可能展明一下就是411億的這樣的罰金金額對不對那會怎麼樣進行做這樣的"},{"start":4271.833,"end":4294.771,"text":"好來做一個說明那如果有必要我們再會再排專案報告好不好好謝謝來下一位請鄭振淺委員謝謝謝謝主席我想請一下共民進攻部長經濟部公民部長"},{"start":4300.527,"end":4329.039,"text":"周委員早安部長好我先延續一下剛剛那個楊卓恩委員在關心那個雲能離岸封電的事情因為那個最近跟台灣能源政策很多有關的事情就是包括我們核能的一個轉向整個政策的一個改變核能可能會重啟然後因為整個中東的一個戰事的時候讓台灣的天然氣產生一個很大的一個緊張那我在想說"},{"start":4329.959,"end":4351.6,"text":"這個部分我們就不得不去稍微做一下檢討就是說為什麼核能政策做轉彎然後第二個情況就是說之前的一個離岸風電的一個政策到底有沒有有一些不當的地方或者說有些可能的避岸的狀態我們要去追究一下部分我想請教一下雲能電廠它是有80座的風機對不對部長你知道嗎"},{"start":4355.739,"end":4374.516,"text":"因為他本來我先簡單講一下他本來是2020年他就要商轉並延延了五年之後在去年才商轉並延那我想請教一下現在我們跟雲能就是購電 等購電價之後一度電多少錢部長請回答"},{"start":4377.312,"end":4406.177,"text":"他踩前高後低一部店多少錢平均是五點多不快多他會踩前高後低的方式平均五點八啦然後因為前面幾年是高的可能會高達七點多元更高的一個情況那麼在這樣的一個情況之下就是說我們其實給基本上給這樣子的一個離岸方面廠商很好的一個條件可是問題是他很明顯違規剛剛楊前委員直接提到他從第一次事故就已經低於了"},{"start":4407.438,"end":4428.195,"text":"就是經濟部原本要求50%的股份的股權的最基本的要求然後連續三次的一個移轉股份之後現在變成零了 你知道嗎股權全部移轉走掉了然後在110年5月21號當時的次長 鄭文森次長他開會當中的時候有提到說只要他們違規的"},{"start":4429.816,"end":4440.707,"text":"事項很明確的時候那麼就會用他開始商轉並聯之後就會用迴避成本來購電請問一下我們現在有沒有用迴避成本來購電比較細的部分你要講一下嗎你要講一下這個細節"},{"start":4453.703,"end":4459.828,"text":"有沒有用回避成本來購電?因為在110年5月21號的會議當中還有我們跟原本開發商的一個合約"},{"start":4477.239,"end":4503.857,"text":"基本上針對違約責任都有很明確提到如果他們有違約的一個情況的時候呢就會用迴避成本來購電可是為什麼他現在完全明顯的違約的情況我們沒有用迴避成本來購電請簡單回答我報告委員因為剛剛主席已經有裁釋了這個個案我們用兩個禮拜的時間會把完整的這個說明提高給這個委員會啦那如果要的時候好不好"},{"start":4505.458,"end":4518.063,"text":"好 那在這個部分因為有些事情過去比方說他們已經整個市股已經變成零持股的狀態你要去追很難現在用多少的價格去買他的店"},{"start":4521.024,"end":4540.641,"text":"是我們能夠控制的為什麼我們不做請正在兩個禮拜之後說針對這部分很清楚的給我們一個回答那針對這411億的部分它是因為用迴避成本之後減少的一個支出購電的成本411億我們至少要在這部分幫老百姓"},{"start":4542.172,"end":4553.99,"text":"顧住這一筆錢好不好兩個禮拜之後很清楚的讓我們知道與能這樣的一個弊案的狀態的時候我們要怎麼樣的去做後續的一個處理OK那我在想說因為整個"},{"start":4557.113,"end":4585.224,"text":"核電的問題現在可能要開始啟動了那我就不再講說這髮夾灣有如何的情況我們如何被攻擊我覺得怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電就是一個我們最大的一個標的那我想請教一下因為那個針對整個核能要啟動的時候人才的問題我們有沒有去做一個配套因為從1997年之後核工系就已經不在清大核工系就已經不再是核工系了那我們現在很清楚"},{"start":4586.064,"end":4600.206,"text":"就是核安會他也很清楚的表示台灣現在的核電的人才是缺乏的我們要重啟核電的時候要怎麼樣用最快的速度把這樣子的核工的一個人才把它補齊布產工會簡單說一下"},{"start":4601.872,"end":4616.725,"text":"台電公司請鄭文森說明一下就是它所有的核子都有保留下來這些人員我們都沒有離開那我也知道說核安衛下面有一個叫做國家的原子能科技研究院"},{"start":4617.566,"end":4638.624,"text":"他也是保留了這樣的這個有關於河工的人才那規模非常大那這個都至少有保存在這邊持續的有在做新式核能的這個研發啦或者是了解啦等等一些情況我跟委員報告幾件事第一件事情"},{"start":4639.366,"end":4656.334,"text":"就是一直都在傳聞說台電把我們核發部核發處等人都裁撤這件事是不事實不是事實核二廠跟核三廠的同仁當時停機之後因為尤其核二廠他的燃料棒都還在爐心那核三廠是2024、2025分別停機其實我們的人員都還滿邊那核二廠跟核三廠的同仁其實平均"},{"start":4664.298,"end":4693.075,"text":"對啦 之前的時候我諮詢過我去年諮詢過的時候我特別提到說核能事業部現在是1866人啦都還維持著啊基本上都維持我知道可是因為之前一直有鼓勵他們要去轉到不同的部門去做那個其他狀態那現在因為整個政策一個髮夾彎的時候我們希望這部分能夠很具體弄到因為我們知道這幾年就是台灣的核能相關的人才確實是出的至少核安會是這麼說的教育部也認為是這樣一個情況"},{"start":4694.096,"end":4715.668,"text":"我跟您報告一下就是其實核電廠的運轉它裡面一大堆機械設備它的電機機械的相關人才會比核工的還要多它到其他的地方去歷練回來這完全不會影響它的職能好沒問題那因為剛剛部長特別提到說我們台灣這邊也要做SMR小型核電的一個研發對不對那我看到的狀態"},{"start":4716.909,"end":4729.86,"text":"就是在那個115年就今年的狀態有編列一個四年八億的一個SMR的一個基礎研究計畫那從今年開始全球就開始有第一座的SMR的一個發電廠產生了然後那個"},{"start":4733.763,"end":4752.608,"text":"接下來會有陸續不同的國家都會產生那我希望台灣就碰到這一次的一個中東的一個戰事我們很清楚的看到台灣的能源需要更多元化去讓台灣不會缺電那我在想說這一次的"},{"start":4754.264,"end":4780.675,"text":"核電廠的一個重啟的時候我覺得某個部分表示了現在執政者似乎是一個知過能改的一個狀態之前的政策顯然是有問題的對於台灣的整個經濟成長是不適當的雖然當時賴總統他提到說我們現在轉彎的原因其實是因為整個產業變化然後一個地緣政治還有一個整個"},{"start":4782.642,"end":4807.837,"text":"看邊境整個相關的一個政策所以要做一個這樣改變可是我要講的情況是這三個客觀的事實從來都沒有改變過所以顯然是之前的一個能源政策出了問題那我們希望就是在這次轉彎當中的時候我們能夠盡速把台灣的那個多元的一個能源的一個政策能夠把它確定下來然後對於之前在整個"},{"start":4809.258,"end":4824.108,"text":"光電、風電所產生的弊案的時候經濟部這邊能夠加速把它給釐清那兩個禮拜之後我們等著允仁這邊你們怎麼做的說明以上謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛質詢"},{"start":4837.597,"end":4844.082,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長還有我們台電董事長請台電董事長政委長安"},{"start":4848.096,"end":4867.686,"text":"部長我想了解一下因為丹奧斯颱風對我們台南真的是整個重創非常嚴重所以大家非常關心我們整個電纜地下化的進度雖然我們有訂了一些重點就是從我們的"},{"start":4869.278,"end":4882.226,"text":"台17台19还有我们相关的911那不是在台南市台南市依照的是台17台19那我想了解的现在进度如何"},{"start":4886.993,"end":4898.396,"text":"報告委員我們基本上針對台南市在推動的相關工作最近都在積極的進行當中那最重要的是今年度我們已經規劃了5.63億元那明年也會規劃9.64億元來執行相關的工作"},{"start":4905.638,"end":4909.561,"text":"那這預算是通過所以我們今年會加緊執行這個整個預算大概是18億左右的預算你認為可以解決到我們的問題嗎跟委員報告就是說到目前為止就是說這是年度預算的便利是啊那我們要把它全部做完可能也不會是只有兩年的時間只是說那這兩年完成大概比例是多少"},{"start":4931.547,"end":4951.16,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說如果是以我們自己估計比較脆弱的地方先補的話這一定應該是有超過一半以上的但是後續還會有多少地方可能會被發現出來因為有的時候也會有一些那個因為新的颱風來因為過去像台17線台19線這麼嚴重的狀況事實上我相信委員知道第一次發生這麼嚴重第一次發生其實是因為我們把"},{"start":4959.346,"end":4975.842,"text":"台17台19列為優先其實我們所期待的是台南他很多地方其實是期待有地下化的可是因為我們的經費不足都把它列為是高空"},{"start":4976.903,"end":4996.67,"text":"可是說真的如果我們可以趁這個機會如果在各縣市優先由各縣市願意去配合做地下化的部分你覺得台電應不應該配合我跟委員報告喔其實我們在預算以外還有一個就是我們要增加人力"},{"start":4997.23,"end":5025.491,"text":"那增加人力這個台電已經在跟我們的協助廠商在努力做人力增加的工作就是如果地方政府配合我們當然非常願意一起配合來做這個工作所以我台電現在在努力做的一個事情就是我們希望能夠有更多的人力準備能夠投入這個相關的工作裡面我想說有些細節如果委員想知道我們可以請同仁或是我們去跟委員做報告重點是我們要把工程能量給他給提升起來"},{"start":5026.071,"end":5054.253,"text":"這個就是重點啊你知道嗎現在地方政府未來我都希望台南市可以去配合台電去做很多一些規模式的一些地下化除了我們中央編的預算以外如果地方政府可以來配合議員會支持我相信我們逐步把它做地下化的一個規劃然後第二個是很多"},{"start":5055.054,"end":5079.748,"text":"建商他們是希望藉著他們的一些工程然後搭配我們台電像這個我們都應該優先來配合是不是你知道我們規劃每次溝通很久就是如果他是新增的用電戶如果他有一些我們現在我們的區住也有跟這些新增用電戶講說因為你自己本身具有工程能量"},{"start":5080.428,"end":5087.511,"text":"如果你那一段你可以自己先做那我們可以怎麼樣子去節省工期我覺得應該是要把這樣的訊息給各地方應該給各地方因為每次我們已經溝通很多次了很多的建商他們願意把自己的能量來協助"},{"start":5100.737,"end":5113.375,"text":"可是呢因為我們台電常常會說因為這是架空窟所以說他們沒有辦法給出這個經費但是如果建商願意來協助我們何不趁這個機會"},{"start":5115.512,"end":5139.897,"text":"那我們來跟他協調整個預算的問題我覺得也減低了我們台電的壓力是不是應該這個樣子那個委員我們這樣說我這個方向上我現在第一個增加工班的能量我們會做第二個讓民間的力量能夠進來我們來看用什麼方法來設計因為那有一些權力義務關係我們要把它確定下來沒錯 董事長地下化"},{"start":5142.833,"end":5171.099,"text":"未來性地下化本來就是一個未來我們一個城市的發展要讓他怎麼地下化帶動整個城市這才是我們的重要所以這一次因為台南丹納斯颱風之後大家開始面對這個必須去檢討的問題也就是我們要怎麼電纜地下化過去大家認為不會發生的事結果一個颱風把台南整個"},{"start":5172.319,"end":5193.347,"text":"吹成這個樣子所以我覺得我們要坦然面對誠實面對而且也不得不面對所以我要拜託我們部長在這個部分因為剛剛董事長有說到底未來有沒有經費未來的經費到底在哪裡人力到底可不可以配置"},{"start":5194.187,"end":5221.496,"text":"我說真的都是未失數所以我們怎麼樣在這個前提當中把它擬定未來現在這兩年沒有問題嘛可是未來呢不知道剛剛董事長也只能說我想未來不會只有這兩年未來還有可是未來的事沒有人敢承擔所以我們希望的是給我們一個方向"},{"start":5222.878,"end":5237.017,"text":"到底後年 明年後年還有沒有然後地方的公司合作該怎麼做還有地方政府跟中央怎麼合作現在是五五分嘛"},{"start":5237.998,"end":5257.532,"text":"那我覺得你要鼓勵地方應該是要你們出六地方出四然後把這樣的餅做大我覺得這才能有一個誘因所以我覺得這個你們都可以去考量否則現在是五五分嘛五五分說真的中央五地方五地方的預算沒那麼多啊"},{"start":5258.493,"end":5280.792,"text":"好那這個部分該怎麼處理所以拜託我們的這個部長應該去做研理的部分謝謝那我想了解我們台糖董事長我們新營糖廠的規劃目前的進度因為我們一直在推我們希望在新營糖廠的部分它是一個很重要的"},{"start":5282.028,"end":5304.895,"text":"因為這是吃肉的如果我們能夠把西北地方做成親子還有科技體驗營我相信台糖一定會非常大的獲益所以我想我們現在114年從去年9月完成一個出港然後也已經召開協調會"},{"start":5306.736,"end":5332.266,"text":"我們也確定了這個親子共榮跟科技體驗方向的規劃那我想跟董事長了解你們預計什麼時候報告委員 這個我們配合市政府對 因為這個還是要市政府但是用台黨的土地我們一些facility那一定會配合他我們知道那個星雲畫面"},{"start":5333.413,"end":5353.647,"text":"真的是台塘的最重中心的地方那邊的相關的設施以及土地還有我們的那個汽池廠我們的油品都在那邊是我們重中之重那當然我們一定這些項目一定要配合市政府的規劃那我們是極力現在基本上"},{"start":5354.247,"end":5383.007,"text":"你們的規劃已經有共識了那現在市政府要辦公展還有都市計畫變更的審議那當然這一些區塊我們會去追市政府可是當市政府我覺得應該要同步既然大家有這個共識是希望朝著親子共榮跟科技體驗的方向那你要跟我們講如果市政府這些都已經完成了那你的下一步呢"},{"start":5384.332,"end":5386.445,"text":"你要同步啊對我們一定是"},{"start":5387.695,"end":5412.927,"text":"在公展及變更審議結束以後我們一定是按照時程立刻採讀更新方式來招商來完成這種事情對 董事長我希望是說你們在它公展還有都市計畫變更審議的同步你們要想如果它審議過了你們要怎麼接續"},{"start":5414.868,"end":5441.233,"text":"你不要等他晚了之後你還要再討論一段時間那就延宕了整個的發展所以應該是現在就討論好審議完之後我台糖要怎麼進行招商好你的招商進度要怎麼做我覺得拜託我需要這樣的時程表同步進行才不會浪費時間好董事長再拜託部長再拜託謝謝"},{"start":5445.694,"end":5451.467,"text":"好 待會謝一鳳委員質詢完畢之後休息10分鐘那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":5465.348,"end":5491.367,"text":"主席 再當委員先進列席的政府局長 市長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體記者 女士先生有請拱部長然後前半段我要請能源署的吳代理署長還有台電的曾董事長以及地調中心的許主任後半段我要請產發署的蘇署長以及中汽署的李署長在後面準備好 部長早"},{"start":5494.073,"end":5503.002,"text":"部長你有沒有騎過機車有有買過機車買過嗎沒有家人的家人的好如果有二行程機車跟電動機車你現在買會不會買二行程的"},{"start":5506.844,"end":5529.478,"text":"應該不會 因為買電動機車 現在假設一個家庭有汽車 有二行程的後來買了電動機車之後 二行程的就把它放在倉庫 但是我沒有把它丟掉因為我想說哪天要是我的汽車保養 可能我需要一輛車或者電動機車停電 我沒有電我要加油用二行程 你覺得合不合理"},{"start":5531.291,"end":5546.402,"text":"留著二行程沒有把它丟掉合理但是他比較佔位子當然啦就是我家空間大嘛 農家嘛但是如果有人說你家還是上大學可以集機車你再買一輛二行程的給他或者這輛二行程的再先給他用你會這樣考慮嗎"},{"start":5548.676,"end":5570.787,"text":"還是要用心的 因為它比較浪費是的 沒有錯現在核電重啟我們總統說的三原則核安無虞 核廢有解 社會共識那核安無虞其實呢核電在運作的期間我們最怕的是什麼天災啦 人流破壞啦造成一些輻射大量外洩 對不對那對於核廢 哇 核廢到現在有解嗎還沒有嘛對不對 目前哪個國家可以完全的處理"},{"start":5577.597,"end":5579.47,"text":"永遠的最終處置場有沒有"},{"start":5581.495,"end":5604.728,"text":"芬蘭有在 芬蘭嘛 美國有沒有辦法美國有沒有最終組織廠 還沒有還沒有 但是美國很大 它很多沙漠很多岩盤 它把它放進去就好了好 所以我們往下看所以核電目前還在重啟它是像那個已經淘汰放倉庫的二星城萬一有什麼需要拿來備用還是說啊 這個車子還沒有完全壞小孩上大學我就給他騎你認為我們的核電的一個"},{"start":5608.77,"end":5636.495,"text":"備援還是積載未來如果重啟的話現在說還太早了因為不然我們幹嘛要準備重啟因為我們那個自主安全檢查能夠說這個廠可以發多久如果核電公布這個了那就可以有時候可以緊急上場待命對不對我留著這個可能性但這個可能性是備援還是說以後我們要持續來用"},{"start":5637.768,"end":5656.74,"text":"是還是上大學交給他騎還是萬一哪一天我車子送保養了我可以來代步是哪一種這個要自主安全檢查看他的狀況如果過的話你認為主要用途是什麼 社會形態是什麼曾董事長你認為你們台電要負責的是給他備援還做機載"},{"start":5657.912,"end":5685.06,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們真的所有的狀況都要適當使用電的狀況然後國際因為他牽涉到還有一些事情比方說燃料供應等這兩關的問題那當我們這段時間大家一起很努力的推動一些相關的自主能源像再生能源這些事情那這些比例都要一起來考慮好 所以我要告訴你這個孩子會大會需要讓新的車到極早準備"},{"start":5686.584,"end":5712.897,"text":"但是現在這個淘汰沒有壞掉的我隨時可以待命救援兩種需求我都考量到 是不是這樣那我就要告訴你備援的跟積載的要分開來思考往下看其實現在我們AI半導體產業的需求暴增假如都用核電來供應以前核電停機之前的供電量通通回來最高到多少"},{"start":5716.256,"end":5735.869,"text":"佔比多少 有沒有佔到10%差不多10%好 那未來如果我們的供應需求超過10%你就通通拉回來也不夠嘛所以我們一定要想的是說未來這些新增的剛性需求不是臨時的需求 一定要找到什麼其他的替代能源往下看董事長有沒有在開發D呢"},{"start":5737.919,"end":5761.536,"text":"對 我們其他的 包括你這邊提到現在低熱的情況是不是一個可預期的一個低熱跟其他的再生源不一樣喔光跟風有間歇性 低熱有沒有間歇性它可以當作基載好 可以當作基載 本來問董事長 你說可以當作基載好 地料所主任現在台電有沒有請你們幫忙積極去做低熱的開發的研究有"},{"start":5763.817,"end":5777.728,"text":"有沒有什麼把握在多久期間內在我們未來用電量需求大增之前有沒有開發我們一直在持續跟台電合作部長有沒有要求台電要想辦法在低熱發電有更積極的目標跟作為"},{"start":5779.278,"end":5803.205,"text":"部長有沒有 有沒有要求有有有 像中游也有 中游是中游因為他們還有探勘處那個曾董事長你們有沒有要求 被要求說要加強低熱的開發往下看有 這一個題目已經我想說討論了非常久那當然還有一些工作就是在開發時間遇到的一些困難包括土地 尤其是地下的一些狀況所以有沒有定住一個目標我們還在討論說怎麼樣再更進一步克服"},{"start":5806.705,"end":5822.793,"text":"還沒有明確的目標 部長要定出明確的目標如果用電需求有明確的預估 我們的用供電的成長就有明確的目標 可不可以可以可以 我覺得那可以給我們一個基礎的一個原則或方向可以喔 好 來接下來下半題 那個台電請回第二則 來"},{"start":5824.465,"end":5848.495,"text":"部長過去可能在你接任經濟部之前我們在2018年那時候的行政院長是現在的賴總統他推動了一個小店家行動租優惠營業稅優惠1.0你知道這個事嗎我知道好 蘇組長那個時候這個事情是不是經濟部在協助推動的小店家大部分都是你們在服務嘛有沒有推動這個事情有 這個有是不是你們負責宣導的"},{"start":5849.836,"end":5870.476,"text":"宣導有經濟部一直有你們也有經費委託包括像商研院或是其他的財產法人協助推廣有沒有一般就是宣導說他有一些租稅優惠期間是的對好後來有沒有青年創業他就用了這個優惠青年創業有沒有對啊你你去輔導當然希望他用啊那輔導半天有沒有成效"},{"start":5872.462,"end":5892.021,"text":"跟委員報告 因為他這個只要是使用行動支付在符合條件的一定程度是啊 要說有成效 有沒有你扶老半天沒有人改用就可惜了嘛部長你認為應不應該要有成效有 很多年輕人大部分都是用行動支付啦是的 那你知道他落日了嗎他到2025年就沒有了 叫1.0好 再往下看"},{"start":5892.762,"end":5917.514,"text":"那你也知道在疫情期間那時候你在國發會我有跟您提議過後來經濟部也採納了就是小店家的營業衝擊一戶一家4萬塊有沒有署長有沒有印象那時候我逼你逼得很急啊趕快要做啊是不是有做了多少很多嘛花了多少錢300多億嘛是不是金額可能要再確認一下大概360幾億快370億啦部長"},{"start":5920.157,"end":5936.59,"text":"所以這一個事情小店家雖然為數眾多不到六十萬他五十幾萬他們的稅務供應不高可是是在我們民生的民眾交易的對象對不對好那我們再往下看那現在小規模營業人的行動支付有個2.0你知道嗎"},{"start":5938.188,"end":5957.522,"text":"你知不知道來 署長知不知道對 就是前幾天財政部有對 不是前幾天 他在去年底就公布了但是呢 前幾天因為新聞鬧出來被誤會其實呢 小店家就算他已經超過20萬開發票的門檻但是他如果用行動支付延續原來1.0或者用多媒體資訊服務機就是什麼"},{"start":5958.763,"end":5975.394,"text":"自助收銀點餐機就像你現在去大型的食品連鎖店在門口你要戳一戳對不對是點餐跟收銀就一併處理了如果使用這樣的話還是維持1%的優惠部長你覺得這對我們的小店家是不是個利多是 是 要不要幫忙宣傳"},{"start":5976.788,"end":6001.665,"text":"可以啊 承諾這個經濟部要加緊來宣傳最後我們來看一下沒有了那最後已經到了所以經濟部長的這番話那為什麼找這種中企署來呢中企署其實除了我們商業署之外其實未來這些可適用這些多媒體資訊服務機自助收銀點餐機的店家希望部長責成兩位署長"},{"start":6002.525,"end":6014.573,"text":"積極的來輔導 傳統商圈 社區型的商圈還有青年創業的部分 加起來輔導 好不好好的好 謝謝好 謝謝宗教兵委員 謝謝部長還有兩位署長下一位我們請謝一鳳委員質詢"},{"start":6034.709,"end":6054.284,"text":"謝謝主席,我請拱部長請拱部長,謝謝還有中油台電,能源署中油董事長跟台電董事長早,拱部長早聽說你也承認了我們五月份的油氣調度會差一點點,是不是?"},{"start":6055.728,"end":6077.039,"text":"正大事實上是可以完成的因為我們的雖然差一兩艘但是因為我們調度的這個船比較大所以它量事實上已經滿足了那我問你我現在就教育你就我們的燃煤來講我們每一個就是說我們安全存量依法定的是幾天"},{"start":6077.935,"end":6102.846,"text":"煤是30天那現在的存量有多少現在應該是40天40天現在有40天是不是那天然氣呢天然氣規定是11天現在大概12天多了就是法定是11天那現在有12天那石油呢石油法定是多少60天90天現在有90天不是現在"},{"start":6103.886,"end":6125.676,"text":"法定是90天那我們現在大概150天150天那所以目前如果在150天後你有沒有辦法確保我們的石油按照天氣進來油是一直有在進來所以從2月28號戰爭開始以後我們那個150天都沒有減少反而在增加所以"},{"start":6131.577,"end":6134.844,"text":"雖然有出有進嘛所以這個一定是維持這個一百"},{"start":6136.004,"end":6161.37,"text":"比起法定的要超過非常非常多比90天還超過所以會到150天對 現在那如果戰爭不停呢中東的衝突不停呢我們還是會進啊我說中東的衝突不停呢會從其他的地方進呢從其他哪一些地方我有聽你說過主要是美國啦那有確保說一定就是說不會停"},{"start":6162.43,"end":6181.242,"text":"都150天以上還是9天以上目前看起來是還是可以調度的到了是可以調度的到是不是好那我想要請問我們現在南韓它有26座的核電廠在運轉佔了它的發電總量31.7%那現在我們"},{"start":6190.243,"end":6208.784,"text":"賴政府也重啟了核電這樣子的一個計畫我想請問這個自主安全檢查需要多久台電的部分他一直講說18個月到兩年兩年自主檢查的部分有沒有辦法更快"},{"start":6213.107,"end":6225.553,"text":"跟委員報告喔其實是我今天的口頭報告裡面有把我們現在做的工作一樣一樣講其實坦白說我覺得就台電現在的狀況來說"},{"start":6227.054,"end":6248.426,"text":"我們是依著程序同時在進行相關所有的工作不是一項一項做我們是可以做的都同時在做好 我想說這也跟委員說明剛剛的報告裡面包括他那個LRA裡面相關的老化分析我們直接找原廠來幫忙協助一起做因為他們因為就台灣來講 河山我們就只有兩個機組是這個型的"},{"start":6250.407,"end":6266.03,"text":"但原廠他有很多機組是這個型的所以他的專業一定比我們強大來協助我們做評估這個是很重要的那同時 河岸會提出來的包括地震危害案分析等等相關的其他平行的事項我們也是平行在做"},{"start":6268.121,"end":6286.771,"text":"國務部長 我這問題非常重要你知道嗎 因為根據台中院的報告2029年的時候 我們如果AI算力中心的用電量是現在的6.5倍你是AI內閣 你們現在是不是AI內閣沒有電 你們AI內閣就shut down了 是不是"},{"start":6292.418,"end":6301.222,"text":"不會啦會不會 你們現在的政策你們都說誰誰誰 開會你們現在的政策是不是AI政策啊是不是AI幫你做出來的是不是AI幫你做出來的欸 你沒有AI到時候電力沒有了你們AI內閣會不會shut down不會啦會不會shut down不會沒有電啦因為它原來的base很小嘛我說你沒有我說你沒有電力你們AI內閣會不會shut down不會沒有電"},{"start":6321.226,"end":6343.87,"text":"我說如果啦順利中心沒有建立那我說未來台積電如果需要再增加設廠那南韓現在他們的核電是一個低碳穩定的這樣子供應量那會不會不是現在喔未來在他們電力充足的情況下會不會搶走我們的訂單啊會不會"},{"start":6347.651,"end":6373.784,"text":"報告委員因為到2030年2032年所有想要規劃想要蓋半導體廠的部分我們都已經溝通好而且都有做了準備那不是說因為AI算力中心的這樣子因應的需求導致的電力的增加我們有沒有辦法負擔嘛AI算力中心想要做的部分每個廠商也都事先跟我們台電公司都也做了一些我是擔心你們AI那個shut down欸"},{"start":6374.824,"end":6385.488,"text":"不會啦是不是你們沒有電力等一下你們shut down了不會沒有電啦會不會一定會有電那所以喔我現在再講到一點喔南韓是這樣子的情況那我們台灣呢你台灣呢是不是我們沒有說綠能綠能從未來來看說不定我們20年以後現在的綠能產業也是二行程啊是不是"},{"start":6404.302,"end":6424.218,"text":"從20年以後如果我是說如果我是說20年以後那時候綠能技術的發展來看現在綠能說不定也是二星城啊可是我們從來沒有要停止綠能產業的發展對不對不會因為綠能它是永續的它是以最生能源所以我是說"},{"start":6426.88,"end":6450.657,"text":"技術啦 我是說技術啦20年後的技術有可能比現在更好嗎當然 風機會越來越大20年以後的技術是比較好轉換效率也會越來越高所以在短暫的期間檢討然後重啟核電提供我們所有工業發展民生用電穩定的這樣的電力需求有問題嗎"},{"start":6452.675,"end":6475.529,"text":"還是要自主安全檢查我知道那有沒有辦法更快因為我們現在有競爭對手南韓等日本等等的這樣子的一個這三原則還是要兼顧啦當然啦我當然是這三原則兼顧的情況下有沒有辦法更快我們盡力只要安全有沒有辦法更快只要安全無疑有沒有辦法更快我們就盡量"},{"start":6479.124,"end":6506.012,"text":"抱怨我真的很想說一件事現在有很多說我們可以更快或如何我剛已經把我的工作方式怎麼樣平行在座都說明了更快會比較好嗎我的意思是說我們的安全如果沒有做到到我是說安全也是我們最重要的我是說在安全的原則之下有沒有辦法更快我要告訴您一件事"},{"start":6506.98,"end":6513.164,"text":"我們要維持住我這樣子講整個程序一定要照著規矩好好的去做"},{"start":6514.762,"end":6537.491,"text":"這個是我們一定的前提在按照程序按照規則的情況下有沒有辦法更快縮短期間我們已經把我們怎麼樣做剛才在這裡面跟各位做報告那你如果說還要更快我很擔心會有別的一些取捨那我不想要在這個時候就這樣子跟您做說明說那我們把一些東西忽略掉來更快不可以的"},{"start":6538.371,"end":6553.319,"text":"就是安全的檢查我們一定得照著程序來那我是說在這個前提之下那希望我們可以更快的進行那當然這也因應台灣跟競爭國家對於整個AI的產業以及半導體產業還有民生用電等等需求"},{"start":6559.922,"end":6585.997,"text":"還有其實我最後想要問一點就是我們去張濱公園區看了這個就是說河沙的清淤所要棄置的土方那這個部分是不是經濟部協同因為你們現在只有B1到B5嘛那B6的部分就是河沙以及中央的那個河沙的清淤那也需要佔置的那個"},{"start":6588.338,"end":6599.682,"text":"那這個部分經濟部應該要過去協調就是說未來就這個B6的土方是不是可以進行環評以及進行就是說戰制的這個測試"},{"start":6602.844,"end":6619.246,"text":"縣裡面的這個河川的清淤以及我相信你們中央也沒有嘛那怎麼樣子協助這些需要清淤的土方氣質喔那我覺得這是大家需要共同來解決的問題喔是不是也請你們盡速的去協助"},{"start":6620.807,"end":6633.891,"text":"對 這個因為行政院有在一直在協調這個土方去化的問題那我們招聘公務員其實有提供可以暫置的部分我們就提供出來就算現在是清瑜的部分還沒有辦法那請你們部裡面進去協調好不好"},{"start":6636.482,"end":6653.092,"text":"我再請那個原管局看看好 B6的土方沒關係 這個等一下再跟你說明主要的話就是說彰化 因為我們昨天有去考察所以這個在B6的這個土方在台北港跟其他港是可以那在彰濱這邊又有一些的"},{"start":6654.053,"end":6676.401,"text":"疑慮,那我是希望說再研究,因為土砂的侵淤和很多都是河川的污泥的這樣子的一個含水量過高的問題,這個再請部長再跟這個楊智欣局長再好好研究一下,就是說這是地方的問題,他必須要去解決,好不好,那我昨天會議紀錄也會再跟你們要求這樣子的一個報告,OK,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝謝一鳳委員,謝謝。"},{"start":6683.479,"end":6686.267,"text":"好 現在休息十分鐘我們十分鐘以後回來開會 謝謝"},{"start":6710.915,"end":6714.476,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳餐廳"},{"start":6741.189,"end":6744.351,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":6764.955,"end":6765.435,"text":"好,我們來試試看"},{"start":6794.831,"end":6795.752,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":7321.315,"end":7322.107,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7368.671,"end":7372.5,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":7429.858,"end":7434.204,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們請張家俊委員質詢好 感謝昭偉也謝謝昭偉 李亮那我是先請龔部長龔部長 謝謝"},{"start":7453.816,"end":7468.72,"text":"莊委員早安公務長早安就在這個週末我們賴總統宣布了要重啟核能那針對這個重啟核能的這個目標不曉得說部長您事先知道嗎這個是倉促之下的決定還是經過整個內閣團隊溝通才商量好的"},{"start":7474.872,"end":7476.953,"text":"所以總統要發布這個訊息之前您事先是不知道的?"},{"start":7495.083,"end":7499.568,"text":"目前的時程您心中有一個具體的想法嗎現在就在進行自主安全檢查階段然後這個月底之前我們會送出再運轉的計畫"},{"start":7516.786,"end":7531.016,"text":"那目標是什麼時候可以完成這個正式重啟自主安全檢查台電給我們的這個數據是差不多18個月到兩年之間所以如果從現在開始的話要2028才有機會重啟那這個"},{"start":7536.92,"end":7560.488,"text":"等於是這個時間 符合總統的這個目標嗎報告委員 自主安全檢查檢查完以後要送到河岸會去審查那河岸會會審查多久 這個我們就尊重河岸會的這個審查我也知道你會說都是河岸會的決定那我的意思是你身為經濟部長你的想法呢 你的想法你有沒有有什麼主張說是不是應該這個期程應該再拉快一點"},{"start":7564.429,"end":7574.116,"text":"因為我們自主安全檢查希望把這個安全的功像全部都做到位那如果可以節省時間我們當然盡量節省時間但是河岸會的確它安全的這個審查時間這個我們就沒有當然我也同意安全一定要第一但是呢有關於這個有可能我們會面臨缺電的這個危機也是目前不會有目前不會有你有信心說我們目前不擔心這個點"},{"start":7592.428,"end":7602.558,"text":"對 因為短期間當然是中東戰事嘛那我們天然氣的調度大概五月份大概都完成嘛那本席也有注意到在台美關稅簽署的這個ART第五節經濟與國安的這個章節其中第五條第四條第七項就是在"},{"start":7611.587,"end":7611.787,"text":"沒有勒"},{"start":7640.215,"end":7660.679,"text":"所以是行政團隊你們只是主動呼應我們通過的這個法律因為有這個法律作為依據我們才有那樣的依據來自主安全檢查看可不可以所以你們現在自主安全最快最快你說18個月這樣子也一定要到2028才有可能重啟"},{"start":7667.452,"end":7695.187,"text":"假設這個結果是安全的是嗎時間那個請台電董事長是請台電董事長那個跟委員報告就是說核安會審查換發執照我們拿到運轉執照就可以重啟所以核安會檢查完畢之後還有什麼行政流程在你們拿到執照這中間你們有預估大概要多久嗎跟委員報告就是說因為今天報告的時候我就特別"},{"start":7696.357,"end":7725.158,"text":"台電的報告特別是用法條來說明講簡單一點就是我們其實要澄清一個事它其實就是一個執照換發的過程那台電要運轉核電廠一定要監理機關就是核安會發了執照才能做所以核安會開完會確定安全之後到他發執照中間還有一個行政流程嗎還是這個行政流程是可以縮減更短的"},{"start":7726.772,"end":7744.039,"text":"委員這個這個可能我也沒辦法這個你也不清楚不是我沒有辦法替你回我沒有辦法替基本上本席是很支持重啟核能的那絕對支持的立場之下但我覺得中央的能源政策讓我一則以喜一則以憂因為整個為了要"},{"start":7748.641,"end":7769.793,"text":"等於是完成非核家園我們花了這麼久的時間然後耗費了高昂的社會資源終於才被中央政府重視喔那我們付出了這麼大的一個成本然後卻沒有人需要負責部長你會不會覺得我們的能源政策空轉太久了呢"},{"start":7772.57,"end":7788.537,"text":"這個能源的發展跟政策跟技術還有當時的社會還有發生的事情都有很大的一些關係那我只是要提醒部長經濟部是國家經濟的總舵手那能源更是重中之重"},{"start":7789.958,"end":7805.469,"text":"要看說台灣的電力供應是否穩定然後能源政策是否有延續性現在決定要重啟核能我呼籲就應該摒棄任何的政治考量用務實科學的這樣子的態度來面對能源問題部長能做到嗎"},{"start":7809.252,"end":7836.259,"text":"我們是依法行政 科學 專業來判斷這個事情一定是這樣太好了 我們繼續往這個方向加油那我要接著問就是中東戰火目前沒有緩解的跡象那國際的原油也是應聲上漲國內的油價已經開始要上揚那我想本席非常擔心基層的民生那現在萬物齊漲不管是瓦斯油價 食材都蠢蠢欲動"},{"start":7837.139,"end":7864.982,"text":"那民眾對於物價上漲的感覺越來越深刻請問部長針對這一波這個戰爭有可能長期化引發的連鎖通膨目前經濟部有沒有在準備一個具體的因應措施呢報告委員我們就是在源頭盡量的政府可以吸收的吸收電的部分現在審議會在這個月底就召開嘛那我們希望穩定物價那"},{"start":7867.165,"end":7888.236,"text":"那個油價的部分雖然有一個公式但是我們有在亞林最低價之外額外再吸收60%以上所以上一次吸收到75%再上上次吸收了60%是當然這個本席都肯定你們很努力在穩定民生物價但是現在這個壓力撲面而來"},{"start":7891.218,"end":7895.261,"text":"目前預估一家四口平均可能每個月會增加五千到七千五的這個生活開銷這一點我想可能經濟部也要開始目前看起來因為我們像那個童莊老師都沒有漲價可是你看喔假設你有去菜市場"},{"start":7913.571,"end":7940.878,"text":"一包一斤的這個塑膠袋每包已經從20塊漲到25塊了那塑膠原料就是石化產業的下游所以呢不是說只有原油它是有它的副產品它的副產品是非常有可能會漲價的所以我希望部長就是說是不是能夠去了解一下說這個可能家庭的生活的開銷壓力"},{"start":7942.398,"end":7964.715,"text":"那這個可能必須可能不只經濟部是要整個行政院可能要坐下來研究評估那未來如果假設這個戰爭不像我們想像的那麼快結束因為戰爭是不可預期的那麼快結束的話我們是不是應該未雨綢繆做一些相對的準備對現在行政院的這個穩定物價的匯報"},{"start":7966.356,"end":7966.737,"text":"我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":8004.08,"end":8029.186,"text":"然後請我們這個部長還有我們台電公司董事長請台電董事長鄭文森董事長鄭文森董事長好還有這個董事長好這個我們回顧這個是在113.520之後的一個報導當初特別提到"},{"start":8030.442,"end":8058.916,"text":"经济部当时的经济部部长答询的时候表示核电部分已无多数人同意做决定并透露有接候总统指示能源政策跨部会要立即检讨也认为核电是干净的能源在113年6月5号经济部当时的书面报告里面也提到核电是否涉及修法议题"},{"start":8060.144,"end":8074.398,"text":"本部就進一步尊重大院的審議及大討論可確保核安處理核廢料及社會共識的一個重要前提這個在"},{"start":8076.291,"end":8102.746,"text":"立法院教育文化委員會在審查這個合管法修法之前先召開了公聽會特別請了這個童子賢也就是他是總統府7月變遷委員會的副召集人特別請他來做這個報告當然不是現場他是用那個"},{"start":8104.497,"end":8130.135,"text":"好這個他當天特別提到核電可以省千億N個千億N個千億他也特別提到核二核三的發電效力非常好相關的這些台電的相關的成本會比這個購買這些風力太陽能可以省這個差距落差每一度電是五塊錢"},{"start":8132.461,"end":8159.259,"text":"如果我們從評估過去為什麼總統賴總統會請這個童子賢當這個副召集人就一定有他的一個規劃所以這個部分我發現過去有退本來是郭志輝部長一開始是要往這個方向但是後來不是那麼積極"},{"start":8162.066,"end":8188.001,"text":"所以核廣法修法表決的結果賴清德總統謝謝立法院能夠通過核廣法的修法當然這個是非常艱辛的所以接下來就是經濟部跟台電當然還有核安會當然最重要其實是台電"},{"start":8189.566,"end":8218.628,"text":"因為最有經驗的就是台電最了解的也就是台電所以這個部分相關的執法包括相關的計畫包括需要提的你們的報告都有提到現在就是說這個整個推動能夠加速就加速當然"},{"start":8220.56,"end":8237.146,"text":"我不知道這個因為已經停了尤其是核二核三是剛停沒多久了這些工作人員技術人員這個董事長技術人員很重要是"},{"start":8238.938,"end":8254.707,"text":"我們的那個我剛有跟委員報告就是我們核二廠核三廠的技術人員原則上因為那個我們設備維護還有一些燃料池裡面有燃料棒我們都維持原來的編制這個已經退休的"},{"start":8257.049,"end":8275.11,"text":"這些人員也很重要可以多多請他們多指導現在的人員跟委員報告您提到這一點老師那個其實台電公司我們的人才就是他退休以後如果有可能因為第一個很多民間公司找他們那可能當然比較不可能"},{"start":8275.41,"end":8299.536,"text":"那如果這裡面有一些人才可以協助其實我們最近也在我們也在找相關的人才那尤其是運轉執照都需要經驗傳承那這個部分我們一定也會借重有經驗同仁的能力好 加油齁當然很重要的就是核廢料核廢料其實這個就台灣來講可能這個"},{"start":8302.216,"end":8326.088,"text":"相關的這些需要去加強但是國外國外絕對有很多的可以借進的地方國外絕對有很多可以借進的地方當然跟台灣的地理環境各方面也有所不同但是怎麼樣去那個精進讓核廢料不要成為一個新的另外一個課題"},{"start":8327.368,"end":8340.739,"text":"所以這個部分都要請這個台電公司經濟部能夠去加油了好這個接下來就請董事長回座部長這個馬太安溪菸澀福"},{"start":8343.371,"end":8367.268,"text":"潰敵潰壩之後相關的這些水利署的同仁都在積極的去針對無論是這個砂石包括這個土石包括這些堤防第一道堤防都差不多了現在是第二道堤防這個第二道堤防這個時間"},{"start":8370.785,"end":8379.035,"text":"也很急迫沒有錯請問一下署長這個你們整個工程相關的工程的經費"},{"start":8380.82,"end":8402.968,"text":"夠不夠報告委員這個經費我們目前在執行上面我們都是超前所以稍微有點不足但是都有跟院裡面報告在做適當調度沒有問題我們全力在敢辦一定要以這個為最優先因為行政院第一個行政院有15億的一倍金300億裡面編了270億"},{"start":8408.713,"end":8433.987,"text":"特別預算其中還有15億在行政院的一倍金另外還有30億還沒有編的預算報告委員這個部分行政院都大力支持水利署推動各項工作沒有問題都有適當的報告但是很重要的就是尤其是原住民我們很多的土地祖先留下來的土地一直在使用的土地"},{"start":8435.131,"end":8450.526,"text":"我們都沒有所有錢很多因素包括你的那個說不能取得所有錢那些你們的規定讓我們原住民使用祖先的土地切不能這涉及到未來的"},{"start":8451.127,"end":8452.288,"text":"謝謝署長 謝謝部長因為上次我開過協調會"},{"start":8472.2,"end":8500.52,"text":"我開協調會的時候也是朝這個方向謝謝你們能夠掌握這個方向只要是行政機關從鄉鎮公所縣政府研問會審查結果是符合的雖然還沒有完成整個所有錢的這個移轉希望能夠把它列為可以徵收補償的一個對象這個要特別謝謝但是要繼續加油繼續努力最後這個就把這個"},{"start":8503.061,"end":8522.713,"text":"鑑識館河川及排水整體改善計畫現在目前核定的情形一個素面報告給我可以嗎一個禮拜可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員那個希望經濟部也苦民所苦了這個徵收軍費補助好現在我們請林大華委員謝謝有請部長"},{"start":8537.977,"end":8551.267,"text":"林委員早安好早這個部長我要針對淨零轉型的制度限制啊踢爆電動公車他是你們的用了多大的力量政府在交通部跟經濟部用了很大的力量能夠有電動國產"},{"start":8554.569,"end":8565.797,"text":"那但是呢現在的電動國產巴士呢這個越配合就賠越多的電價矛盾好我們來看行政院2030年進行的承諾說我們一定要達成11700輛的公車全面電動化的目標目前呢在個2026年只剩4年了你們目前進度是少於40%的為什麼業者推不動因為經濟部與台電聯手設下一個電價的陷阱"},{"start":8583.309,"end":8589.292,"text":"我們一方面大力鼓勵轉型購車補貼 從燃油車改為電動車但是你們現在電價 針對電動公車的電價卻是4倍電價的重罰 變價懲罰守法業者台電所謂的價格訊息是正在扼殺所有的大眾運輸"},{"start":8607.762,"end":8630.697,"text":"好這個出貨物政策的套用呢我們先釐清公車不是私家車是我們就駕駛的性質尖峰狀態充電的狀態私家車當然你駕駛的性質你是可以自由選擇你什麼時候要出車就自己自己什麼時候出車你的巔峰站當然我可以配合啊你的價格訊息啦在離峰時段當中我再去充啊晚上10點到隔天的"},{"start":8631.737,"end":8641.228,"text":"下午4點我當然充啊可以啊那充電呢我還可以彈性可以慢慢充我不需要快啊但是呢大眾運輸的電動巴士它的駕駛的性質是按著固定班表而且"},{"start":8646.414,"end":8672.701,"text":"他有輸運的責任第二個他有尖峰時段就下午的4點到晚上的10點當天的晚上10點他的載客最高峰班次最密集但是在充電的時候你們卻在這個時候下午4點到晚上10點的時候是4倍的變價等一下我秀出這個數字那他怎麼可能是在晚上10點過後到隔天的這個下午4點呢來這個補電呢"},{"start":8674.602,"end":8691.375,"text":"所以尖峰充電是亦不而非選擇對於大眾運輸的電動巴士好我們來看這張表你們說台電給我們電動巴士講得很漂亮我給你18小時離風是很便宜的就是從下午的4點到隔天下午的4點"},{"start":8699.361,"end":8728.624,"text":"晚上的10點到隔天下午的4點叫做離峰我給你18個小時啊但是公車什麼時候要加電下午4點到當天的10點啊所以你是用夏季尖峰的這麼昂貴的電價然後呢要求不好意思公車巴士就只有這時候充啊而且他得快充啊你們還鼓勵快充我看你們這個部長還是院長有還去參加那個電動巴士展啊"},{"start":8729.204,"end":8733.466,"text":"哇還鼓勵我們自己國產的這個快充系統所以現在這個電動的業者來給我陳情啊這個幾家的電動巴士業者來給我陳情啊所以公車的營運現實是被徹底鎖死在這6個小時的昂貴尖峰裡好那為什麼快充"},{"start":8748.753,"end":8772.548,"text":"是運人的生命線這裡面有用了LTO的鈦酸鋰電池它的安全性高壽命長所以是為快充而生的而且這是經過交通部VSCC車輛中心所驗證要求什麼叫快充標準15種類你一定要補充60%的電力第三個這種技術的必然還要求說你這個長途路線還有市區空間不足的站點"},{"start":8773.729,"end":8797.343,"text":"高速的 這個高頻的補電是唯一的手段所以台電就要求 卻要要求這些公車客運業者呢電動 你們慢慢充你們根本就是外行領導內行 完全不符合實務好 這怎麼的價差呢離峰電價每度才3.05%夏季尖峰 你們先是用尖峰的來收這個電動巴士喔電動巴士 每度12.47% 差了4.09%"},{"start":8802.706,"end":8823.395,"text":"對所以這就是白紙黑紙所以電動業者下午的4點到晚上10點他必須充電他就必須他也必須在這個時候充電他也就必須繳每度是2.47然後呢你要晚上10點到隔天下午的晚上10點到隔天下午的4點你們慢慢充拜託喔公車公車的電動車怎麼可能這個時段充好"},{"start":8825.956,"end":8833.145,"text":"我們那支手法配合政策的代價是什麼我就舉例好這個如果尖峰補電150度我就算出來你這一次就要多噴140元我一天如果多補300度我每個月"},{"start":8841.656,"end":8845.078,"text":"我就要暴增8萬元這個乘上全車隊的規模這會整個財務崩潰這也就是為什麼你的電動公車巴士而且還說國產的電動巴士為什麼推不動的原因因為你只要買的越多我的電費就是吃的越多"},{"start":8859.446,"end":8864.469,"text":"好這種虛假的優惠看得到吃不到台電的說的基本電費減免10%啦但是對必須補電的快充業者來說根本就是杯水車薪啊18小時的離風優惠對公車業者毫無意義是對電動公車業者因為他們被強制鎖死在剩下的6個小時的尖峰所以這種價格訊息有我們台電講的很好我們高電價我們彈性的這個有這個彈性需求"},{"start":8890.306,"end":8917.713,"text":"這是有效引導但是對於這個電動巴士來講不可能啊我高電價而且班表限制剛性需求我根本沒有辦法挪移我的充電時間這就是純粹的剝削所以台電還沒有辦法做調整一直說這個使用者付費那這套邏輯放在總公共服務是完全錯誤的好這個就是淨零轉型的制度性矛盾"},{"start":8918.653,"end":8938.659,"text":"交通部跟行政院推動電動化2030年有目標要汰換剛才的一千多多輛一萬多輛為什麼汰換不了就是這樣所以你經濟部跟台電懲罰性的電價扯後退所以科運業者當然是陷入這個經營的陷阱這種制度性的矛盾如果不解決2030年的目標絕對會跳票"},{"start":8942.14,"end":8946.183,"text":"好大眾運輸市總公共服務不是自由消費你們自己講的行政院112年報告說啊這個電動巴士啊可以創造2271億元哇這個創造這麼當的政策跟減碳效益喔所以呢我在這邊啊認為本席認為不應該用"},{"start":8962.133,"end":8977.824,"text":"管理一般商業用戶的邏輯來壓榨執行國家政策的公共服務我這邊具體要求打破一體使用增訂電動巴士專項的電價公共運輸電動巴士的專屬電價的方案有獨立的計費標準而且呢 尖峰補電比照離峰也就是下午的4點到當日的10點晚上10點必須補 必要補電給予大幅度的責讓"},{"start":8991.833,"end":9020.431,"text":"我沒有叫你全面廢除時間電價 沒有只是消米 只是要求你們消米這不合理的市價 市售價差特別針對公共運輸店等巴士好 具體要求好 那你們說啊 沒錢要怎樣 跨部會協調如果台電呢 擔心台電虧損 請經濟部會同交通部環境部研議由淨零基金或專案補助來支應這個電價的差額 本席都替你想到了 好"},{"start":9020.991,"end":9046.568,"text":"在這邊最後訴求這個還給公共運輸一個合理的營運空間不要讓淨零轉型變成業者的經營陷阱如果政府連公車充電這樣的一個制度彈性都給不出來我們憑什麼要求民間要投入千億的資金來配合政策經濟部不要再拿這個價格訊息來當擋箭牌部長或台電董事長你們要回應一下"},{"start":9048.77,"end":9066.698,"text":"跟委員報告我想幾個事情先澄清第一個那個沒有針對公車特別價格就所有人都是這樣所以不是針對他剝削我講第一件事第二件事情是一開始在設計的時候我想狀況是這樣因為你剛才講的就是下午4點到晚上8點這一段時間晚上10點理論上車輛的運輸使用會比較多"},{"start":9073.081,"end":9083.283,"text":"因為是這樣所以我們就覺得他不會在這個時候充電快充啊您聽我說這不就是你們一直鼓勵研發的技術嗎我們還要銷到國外去耶這有不同的一些選擇我們也讓業者做選擇現在如果業者他採取了用快充這種方式那他就會面對到另外一種狀況至於你講的一個月內來做討論這個沒有問題因為原來這個方案就是跟業者討論出來的"},{"start":9102.628,"end":9124.967,"text":"我想說狀況是這樣大家技術變化了然後原來的方法如果你覺得這個不OK那我們要來討論一個OK的方式這個沒有問題但是台電絕對不會做剝削公共服務業的事我想說這才是重點如果董事長這邊有這樣的承諾部長他說他願意一個月內給出這樣的價格調整的"},{"start":9129.87,"end":9156.756,"text":"針對國產的電動巴士好這個部分好那這個我在針對主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘拜託主席我難得來好不用那我們請董事長請回部長我再針對兩項議題這個我對於看到這樣的組織改造部長這個你們有一個工商輔導中心這到底是隸屬於您還是隸屬於商發署呢誰要來回答我工商輔導中心"},{"start":9158.292,"end":9181.257,"text":"你看部長你都不知道 主改這太小 這表現真的太小咖了報告委員 工商輔導中心是屬於任務編組 那是屬於部裡面的你做什麼事情我主要是有幾項工作 第一個就是督導這個農地工廠的這個業務的推動那再來還包括像是夜市啊 市場"},{"start":9182.017,"end":9208.426,"text":"也是市長 農地上工廠看起來是大宗 部長你90幾次這樣的一個跨部會的這樣的一個農地上工廠的這樣的會議呢我會這樣問是因為王美花部長她親自定期大概一個月吧 自己親自督導一次喔那好啦 部長你實在是我真覺得你是個好部長 我也不為難你啦市長 主持幾次"},{"start":9209.659,"end":9228.207,"text":"目前次長的部分是每半年會主持每半年 王美花部長時代多久也是一樣每半年啊 難怪進度這麼慢部長我要讓你知道這個工商輔導我對於你們農地上工廠的進度我非常的不滿意除了組織當中的降編叫做任務編組叫做臨時組織跟經濟部中部辦公室"},{"start":9232.329,"end":9253.814,"text":"他還是一個實實在在屬於部本部的組織你現在把他降到臨時的組織降到這個商發署署長我現在問商發署他一竅都不通不是他不專業因為商發署跟我工廠管理輔導法跟工廠全部都是工廠商發署都是服務業"},{"start":9256.994,"end":9277.976,"text":"那所以啊 這根本你們說是懲罰署嗎是懲罰署是嗎好啊 懲罰署那你如果我再問一些細節來好 那懲罰署我就考你好了我要突襲這個主席這個不好意思啦齁我再請求一下齁我難得可以 人難得來我在這邊也世界了齁再一再我一定要講完"},{"start":9278.677,"end":9285.139,"text":"我陳情五項 這個都不是個案來 你這個爭取納管金跟營運管理金署長您知道嗎 本席的主張是什麼我的主張是什麼可以因應這些關稅等等外債的衝擊可以減半來做徵收我的訴求是什麼減半徵收你們現在變成什麼"},{"start":9306.553,"end":9315.499,"text":"因為現在有些縣市你現在變成什麼 變成一年一年 第二個陳情二我現在講的都通案喔 部長我可以 因為你支持我一個非常民進黨執政以來你是少數我敬重你的部長所以我覺得我也不為難你但是我認為署長 市長 署長根本沒有掌握案情我講結論啦"},{"start":9332.811,"end":9352.046,"text":"我希望部長你是不是能夠給這個要求次長能夠加密的來這個開這個會議而讓你的經濟部的這個參事啊主任啊能夠多給他力量能夠多給他力量你知道嗎那個請經濟部代表去研究然後請快速應報告那甚至去報告"},{"start":9353.007,"end":9376.052,"text":"你們這個陳情這邊吼 這都是通案吼包括你105年以後 這個增建的可不可以再拿到特登之後進行締目的時候配合容積率空地再拆除 這種很技術性的問題好 再來這也就變成 主席我讓你報告一下吼這個雖然你第一屆來 我還是跟您說明一下你知道這多嚴重嗎 一定很多人去跟你做陳情吶"},{"start":9377.192,"end":9385.296,"text":"你知道4萬家的列管案件 你知道真的進入到土地邊的多少來 署長 請問 請講幾家 你不要看主任 表示你都不督導嘛700家 700家700家 還有你的統邊不可變 經營組織不可變 到底影響了誰"},{"start":9399.568,"end":9407.834,"text":"我108年的這個工廠管理負擔你現在是要求統編不可變經營統編不可變 到底到底好那再來第四點你的現在你們的展言喔要求說我這個土地我要蓋如果要遷建拆掉重建拆掉重建之後只有台積電有這種能力可以三年內蓋完一般的工廠現在的除了土地成本人找不到之外還有土地"},{"start":9431.252,"end":9449.489,"text":"就一定要延後啊所以你們的規定說延後只能1.5年這是不合理的最後來這也是重點署長我一問你一定不知道你知道農地上工廠有很多的土地不是我自有的我是持分的家族持分第二個租用的那我要合法發怎麼辦"},{"start":9450.51,"end":9462.283,"text":"所以部長知識一分啦這個您如果沒有讓次長再賦予你們署長我也不苛責你啦你沒有讓主任好好的來協調這件事情好好的跟次長報告不可能啦不可能有四萬家都能夠合法最後最後產發署"},{"start":9472.374,"end":9486.866,"text":"懲罰署來懲罰署那個不是懲罰署那個商業師商業師不好意思啊這個我對於你們現在公司法第387條增訂記帳師為公司登記代理人這件事情的修法會不會影響會計師"},{"start":9489.65,"end":9502.195,"text":"他們的主張修完之後會不會影響會不會影響簽證的業務會不會影響他對於上市上會公司的補打如果這兩個不會影響的話那就請你快快的把你們的修正版本提出來發可以嗎 署長 回應一下停止發言了 好不好 謝謝你說提出後面報告然後你們找委員溝通 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":9518.8,"end":9547.301,"text":"好 下一位我們請這個邱志偉 昭偉進行質詢對 邱昭偉都說他麻掉了請各位其他委員遵守我們的委員時間4分鐘那本委是5加2"},{"start":9554.421,"end":9558.624,"text":"橋頭新市鎮因為有橋科的設立所以新市鎮目前發展得不錯現在進入第三期新市鎮要發展 聯外交通很重要"},{"start":9578.961,"end":9592.847,"text":"生活機能很重要 領外交通就是生活機能嘛那現在有這個國土組規劃1-1 60米道路那2-3是南北向是50米道路昨天我去看啦 有一些環保團體說這個開1-1會大面積破壞森林啦"},{"start":9598.485,"end":9614.238,"text":"據我去了解這好像不是森林是好像2002年跟當時農委簽訂的造林契約造林是一個經濟作物對不對它未來就是做出一個商品這個木材請教一下吳董事長"},{"start":9616.662,"end":9638.549,"text":"這個環保局所說的,會大面積破壞台塘的這個所謂森林,那是森林嗎?報告委員,不是100公頃,只有51公頃,而且這個也都超過20年的那個可砍伐的經濟林,它不是自然的原始森林,沒有既有水土保持功能的林地。"},{"start":9639.488,"end":9660.647,"text":"那上面大概都是印度紫檀白千層及相思樹你這個區段偵測面積是多少區段偵測面積多少那個總共不多啦會不會影響目前橋口廠商不管是文化景觀或者遊戲功能或者森林的功能"},{"start":9661.946,"end":9674.253,"text":"會不會 不會 因為在那個警官方面這不是申領 跟那個委員報告你聽到你答案不會就好了 下一位請那個請這個水利署 林署長"},{"start":9681.357,"end":9695.837,"text":"這個典堡溪是流域治理因為以前幾年前兩三年前因為大水造成這個液體所以我們就加強對典堡溪的整治典堡溪花了十幾年"},{"start":9696.698,"end":9708.176,"text":"志鴻池也挖了五個志鴻池對不對然後上游從上游開始整治到這個比秀排水這個最後一個一里路就是在中崎啊中崎啊它有一個625的護岸這個護岸"},{"start":9712.242,"end":9727.332,"text":"大概就是在這個台廠旁邊會不會影響這個護岸的這個興建是不是必要性會不會影響這個弱化這個所謂破壞森林也好會不會弱化整個治水防洪的功能會不會"},{"start":9728.312,"end":9745.103,"text":"首先謝謝委員對典寶溪的支持那經過委員的支持以後我們在兩年前開明台後 到現在其實陸續在推動那你所關心的這一段其實是我們所有的提防最後一哩路有沒有必要性"},{"start":9746.072,"end":9760.007,"text":"有些環團有一些意見但是我們認為還是要做因為你沒有做它水會進入這個造林區而且可能會排到其他的地點所以一定要做這個我們來推動我相信專業因為水利是科學"},{"start":9761.624,"end":9777.837,"text":"環保團體它是有理想性但是它不是了解實際上的技術面或者是你們經過長期的規劃從專業角度 從科學角度來做這個治水方的工作所以你們要跟這些團體多做溝通"},{"start":9778.737,"end":9797.184,"text":"我是相信科學所以從你的這個回答說這個有這個必要性有必要性符合這科學而且會這個會減少典保系這個相關的這個易紅的這個風險對不對是我們會全力來推動沒有問題那接著請這個台電曾董事長"},{"start":9798.563,"end":9816.429,"text":"縣長 那個電協金現在 新達福利商店現在變成燃氣廠對不對 是 沒收拓拓嘛 是 現在變成燃氣所以這個電協金啊 你們這個電協金 我這個也請部長了解一下這個電協金如果做一些調整之後啊"},{"start":9818.233,"end":9837.199,"text":"會變成這個換寡也換不均換寡就是說你這個補助對地方補助的金額總而言減少了不均就是說原本所在區的這個協定本來它可以分配到將近30%那你用新的電協金"},{"start":9838.779,"end":9852.224,"text":"變成補助型跟過去年度型不一樣這種狀況協定就變成只有9%哇整個這個協定是新達火力化電廠所在地這場就是在協定"},{"start":9853.363,"end":9871.56,"text":"這些我怎麼對我的選民 我怎麼對我的里民交代所以這部分啊 無論如何我看了好多市會這個能源署也在 是不是深切地去做一些調整怎麼樣制定一個大家都可以接受的這個電學金的方案"},{"start":9873.39,"end":9883.403,"text":"報告委員這件事也謝謝您關心我想說一併跟您做個回答您關心的問題第一個事情就是我新南電所在的地點"},{"start":9884.619,"end":9901.747,"text":"那個實在是行政區跨分的交錯一部分在永安 一部分在茄町那你現在過去是有整個廠區地址你大門口是在茄町嘛但是你現在這個發電爐是在永安嘛我覺得你們在做這個電子鐵徑的設計的時候"},{"start":9906.409,"end":9933.865,"text":"堅固公平性 你們的相對剝奪感很重所以我提出這個問題那要解決問題需要能源署 需要經濟部 需要台電去處理我希望一個月之內提出一個解決的方案你不要讓我回到這個協定的這些我的鄉親啊我怎麼對他們交代我協定得票率是七成欸 各位啊七成欸"},{"start":9935.307,"end":9937.248,"text":"那SMR目前進度怎麼樣幾年之內我們可以用SMR的技術來上轉"},{"start":9951.206,"end":9977.572,"text":"有沒有知道SMR現在全世界還沒有真的成熟而且開始運轉三年之內要商轉那美國已經批准了這個SMR這個電廠的設置然後韓國也投入很多資源但是看到的大部分它的那個成本都超出他們的預期但是我們會密切觀察如果核能技術我可以接受但是我們要去發展"},{"start":9979.112,"end":9991.361,"text":"不是研發我們需要有扶持這個產業的存在韓國已經在做了美國也在做我希望可以學習最後一個問題CPTPP很重要12個會員國我們在12個會員國我們都有經濟組"},{"start":9995.063,"end":10011.765,"text":"我希望經濟組啊這個游書長能夠責成經濟組同仁確實掌握進度這12個國家我都一個一個去問我直接跟大使通電話了解今年在越南辦的這個部長會議每一個會員我基本的立場如何這個"},{"start":10013.628,"end":10023.958,"text":"請一個月給我各組會管住回報的狀況我也知道我要以身作則時間到了我不會無天際質詢的謝謝邱昭偉 謝謝謝謝 下用請陳昭明委員 謝謝"},{"start":10046.283,"end":10049.013,"text":"主席首先有請我們的國務部長有請國務部長"},{"start":10057.81,"end":10084.088,"text":"蔣部長現在不是早安快到中午了謝謝你不早了我今天仔細看了你這個業務報告寫得非常清楚非常明顯真的是可以看的一個業務報告尤其現在經濟發展的階段台灣很幸運剛好抓到AI的機會但是我們又面臨了一個問題那今天我首先要請教你的問題就是關於水的問題"},{"start":10085.089,"end":10107.266,"text":"我們麻煩水利,呃,林市長。在這裡面的報告裡面,應用極端氣候,新注水,新供水,降落水,這裡面談到了一個問題。今年的冬季雨量,是75年來最少的。"},{"start":10108.671,"end":10126.906,"text":"尤其在新植、寶山水庫、寶一水庫現在的吸水量降到23、24%左右新植縣的隔壁就是苗栗縣以前的百年乾旱,我幫你創造一個黑暗民意"},{"start":10128.067,"end":10150.026,"text":"我們的水庫最多,結果我們是減壓供水,還要隔天輪供那現在苗栗縣永和山40.69,明德水庫33.6,梨一潭水庫30.7那梨一潭水庫主要是供應給台中的,其實苗栗用的不多"},{"start":10151.581,"end":10165.216,"text":"那我在這個地方,我現在很擔心百年乾旱又要來了,依照這個吸水率,你們應該提早準備,我不希望再發生百年乾旱一樣,被罵到臭頭了,我告訴你。"},{"start":10167.919,"end":10175.242,"text":"有沒有可能百年乾旱再來報告委員你掌握的非常好有河山水庫目前的蓄水量確實比往年差"},{"start":10185.046,"end":10204.902,"text":"但是他比白雲他好很多啦事實上我跟委員報告我們每天都有在掌控這個水清一天減少12萬13、45萬那這個部分我們都有掌握我們可以去評估他未來的趨勢我認為苗栗沒有大問題我相信不會有問題啦"},{"start":10205.903,"end":10225.071,"text":"宜潭現在偏低現在是看到新池縣的時候就想到苗栗縣兩個公園一樣那我特別要跟委員報告一件很重的事那你們會不會填灌休耕還是休耕的時候填灌你要準備這一區啊是 報告委員會不會其實我們在做一個調度最關鍵的精神就是如果本區"},{"start":10226.391,"end":10243.025,"text":"它本身是不足我們不會來做跨區供應像現在苗栗每天供應到新竹有5.5萬噸假設永和山將來越來越枯旱我們就會停止這個供應所以這個是我們的第一個要務那以目前來看永和山"},{"start":10244.026,"end":10255.657,"text":"在六月底前應該沒有大問題我們都持續掌控中沒有太大問題六月底以前是沒有問題我們是以六月底來繼續改革我不是說這個人討厭我了解那邊確實梨潭的水庫他的狀況比較偏差所以昨天已經改成綠燈"},{"start":10265.946,"end":10290.605,"text":"這個台中改成綠燈,就是因為我們離台水庫稍微趨緊那這個我們持續掌控我每次都跟你們在賭,賭天氣會不會下雨啦賭營養市啦不過四月初有兩波啦四月到四月中旬有兩波降,我們再期待是,謝謝再來工作報告裡面有關於協志企業,請回座林市長因應中東戰事的衝擊啊"},{"start":10294.758,"end":10318.045,"text":"那中東戰軍對於國內石化顏料及下游產品的影響非常大部長我有看過你報告但是你的報告到底是不是真的能解決問題昨天我高鐵站碰到一個苗栗鄉親他是做酒精的那個塑膠罐他說現在買不到顏料工廠都不報價"},{"start":10319.776,"end":10331.935,"text":"現在民心一直在高低落下,你跟我說頭痛,你有沒有解決方案?真的都不報價,你不要報告寫得很好,確實大的廠商都不報價,"},{"start":10333.907,"end":10359.685,"text":"我們產業署的同仁事實上都有依依跟這些上游廠商聯絡啦那他們是說供應量還是會持續供應啦也許會少量供應會減少一點點啦減少一點點不報價的就是不供給了啦他說要等到失業中期啦現在只會用庫存他們都在擔心啦真的是不報價我不報價等於不供應啦"},{"start":10360.666,"end":10386.211,"text":"委員如果有這個特別案例的話,讓我們知道,我們來協調因為我們還是多方面去問嘛但是怕是掛一漏萬,掛漏萬一的話,讓我們知道這個信息我就直接打電話給你囉,你要幫我協調這個問題我回去跟他們講,我希望他們能解決對,我們可以協調市長請回座那台電終於有兩個爛兄爛弟"},{"start":10394.79,"end":10396.613,"text":"部長現在大家最怕斷氣你覺得會不會斷氣?絕對不會"},{"start":10402.032,"end":10425.689,"text":"絕對不會應該不會不會不會很有自信非常有自信那我們大總統講我們天然氣存料已經有14天我們的食油存料有110天煤油存料我們有40幾天那現在核二核三要重新啟動對不對"},{"start":10429.331,"end":10445.342,"text":"現在自主安全檢查當中我現在想不到一個問題,我們的總統報告說20320以前台灣不缺電,即使用不到核電,現在突然要啟動這個核電是怎樣?真正的原因到底是什麼?"},{"start":10446.857,"end":10473.921,"text":"知政的原因是因為大院那個核安法修正以後讓台電公司有這樣的法律依據你們以前都不肯怎麼現在肯我是支持核電要重啟的喔好我先聲明這一點但是你們講的原因道理讓我覺得莫名其妙你們的選址牌勾到很丟丟沒有啦啊真的啊那郭部長我跟你講我說你亂講你的選址牌要把它毀掉我跟你講你部長要下台啊"},{"start":10475.589,"end":10477.099,"text":"报告委员因为以前的很"},{"start":10478.342,"end":10504.357,"text":"核安法就規定嘛只能運轉40年,40年就不能再延但是現在因為法律的修正核電要起來真的也是有必要的我只能暗示你們這樣我看你們要啟動核電大概跟這個會稍微有關係啦我是用想的才想我現在再問你,再跟你請教核二核三重新啟動要花多少錢"},{"start":10505.982,"end":10531.297,"text":"多少錢現在還沒有辦法完全知道因為他要看自主安全檢查的過程當中那些設備老化的狀況有沒有要更換如果不行要更換那這個錢就要重新算所以現在曾董事長你台電虧那麼多了現在核二核三又起了你這個錢出得了嗎還是再多不醜錢越多越好我越不怕"},{"start":10532.72,"end":10536.609,"text":"你大概要預計如果核二核三啟動要花多少錢"},{"start":10538.212,"end":10562.86,"text":"所以剛剛提到的,還是要看這個過程才知道我看啦,也沒有花上千億以上大概也解決不了所以這筆錢台電虧了那麼多,都是政策上的犧牲品終於會很可憐你去高價買了那麼多五六條船、七八條船一條船虧了那麼多"},{"start":10564.7,"end":10572.407,"text":"從台電跟他要一休回來啊還是全部你們吸收我說你們兩個虧錢兩個互相掩護連連虧那賺錢不是這樣賺的嗎假如沒有中東戰士的話"},{"start":10580.625,"end":10605.563,"text":"這兩家公司今年理論上這兩家很可憐的董事長啊部長你要好好疼惜他啊都是為了你們啊是是是我是講真的本來人才很多不請你啟動那個河河山我們以前的河電人才都被韓國人洗走了我們那段停下來都被洗走了我告訴你看一看報告所以這是我們都會掙扎"},{"start":10608.105,"end":10626.05,"text":"備而不用嘛隨時要準備有可能突然的事情發生現在在做不為晚兩個董事長要好好把天秀起來反正他們也虧錢啊但是虧錢都為你們我在講都是為了政策的錯誤 謝謝好 我們謝謝陳昌明委員接下來我們請賴瑞文委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":10633.834,"end":10662.913,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 請供處長 供部長供部長謝謝部長我先順應剛剛邱昭偉的那個其實現在的我們的因為燃氣電廠等等這個南部其實支持電力的一些擴充的計畫但是還是要給當地的居民要多一些那個讓能夠整件事情能夠圓滿順利這也希望部長跟董事長來妥善圓滿解決是是 了解"},{"start":10663.373,"end":10684.244,"text":"好 接下來請教一下 其實部長也是經濟學家去年其實經濟生產率相當好 這個幾乎是全世界名列前茅的成績那今年的部分當然有比較多的一些變數不過我看了一下部長的報告裡面其實也是看好今年的經濟生產率的狀況那部長我們的主計總數估的是7.7 你的判斷咧 會比這個狀況更好嗎"},{"start":10687.404,"end":10707.356,"text":"當然元宣預估7.7的時候是沒有把這一次的這個中東戰事它會受到一些影響多少會受到一些影響不過從前兩個月還有現在的這個接單狀況比如說AI這個發展並沒有受到中東戰事很大的影響而且速度是越來越快的成長的動能還是存在的所以部長認為是有機會超越這樣的數字"},{"start":10713.992,"end":10733.431,"text":"我不敢講會不會超越啦 但是我覺得這個成長的洞還是存在的那我也順著再問 其實也從中歐戰事也從我們這一段時間不管是整個經濟成長狀況其實包括半導體 包括AI這一塊看起來都是需求量大而且它對電力上的需求也是相當的大的所以我們要提早去因應佈局"},{"start":10735.092,"end":10761.04,"text":"其實在整個經濟狀況其實我們等於是也是全世界名列前茅的一個經濟體那但是我們看到我們天然氣現在已經佔比到了50%的狀況下的時候部長去年你有就是講到了其實我們的安全儲量從11天增加到14天部長考不考慮再增加更多的一個安全儲量的時間因為太多變數不可知中間沒有人想到中東的狀況那但是天然氣"},{"start":10762.14,"end":10778.066,"text":"包括電力對我們又相當的重要了這會影響到世界各國對我們投資的信心跟我們產業的一個信心部長有沒有考慮再持續增加我們天然氣儲量的一個時間因為現在的目前規劃就是2027您這邊提到的14天嘛那我們來看因為現在這個"},{"start":10782.121,"end":10804.74,"text":"蓋這個蓋儲量這個儲藏需要一些需要一些地方啦那還是要跟持續溝通啦部長所以應該是因為現在的不管是幫助AI甚至AI的那個量很大啦那電力絕對是我們的那其他的各項的能源來源的其實都有很多的不確定性存在所以天然氣幾乎成為是我們一個很主力的一個"},{"start":10805.861,"end":10820.749,"text":"那如果這樣狀況下的話連包括連日本都有三週包括甚至於韓國有一個月的時間那部長要不要考慮這些韓國是規定九天啊對所以我知道規定但是他會有更多的預留那個嘛我意思說以"},{"start":10821.129,"end":10850.464,"text":"台灣現在的重要性跟全世界的重要性我覺得請部長回去再評估因為這個不見得是你現在決定了馬上過一年兩年就完成的就是我們都是要提前做準備也許我們到2030或2032的時候突然我們的需求量會大增的時候如果我們不提早做準備的話我們有可能我覺得現在多元的能源方案那天然氣絕對是我們重要的一環這不是請部長提早來做規劃我們再往前規劃好不好那我希望這個天然氣的儲量能不能再多做一些增加"},{"start":10851.894,"end":10875.161,"text":"對 我們會再往前規劃 因為那個還是要有接收站還有它的除氣槽這個必然是你有規劃了才會去努力去完成這件事情嘛就像我們的很多的電廠也是因為我們認為預估未來需要不然的話現在到2030年我們都是足夠的嘛但是因為我們認為未來有需要所以我們才要提早來做準備嘛那個台電政黨網長要不要表示一下你的意見政黨網長 你贊同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":10878.264,"end":10900.978,"text":"報告成員我補充說明一下目前台灣我們天然氣除潮總共有14座的除潮那麼新建或擴建的除潮呢也在陸次的進行當中包括呢在台中接收站的部分新增兩座除潮那麼在北部關塘接收站呢我們也打算提出來不是啊 兩位董事長我其實一直要求再增加那個啦好不好"},{"start":10901.678,"end":10931.241,"text":"部長可以朝這個方向來努力可以嗎 部長可以可以了齁不要等到了時間很接近的時候其實壓抑都會更大好不好這個都要預作準備也許那時候你已經不是部長任內但是現在我們所做的作為都會為未來我們提供出很多的一些選擇性出來好不好好 再來我請教一下國營事業其實肩負很多的一些重大的責任所以但是你像台電跟中油其實表現都相當好但是很多的時候如果沒有獲利其實很多是政策因素並不是因為他們的"},{"start":10931.621,"end":10949.989,"text":"那所以我來講的是不管是台電、中郵、台糖甚至台水能不能在今年度一樣持續給他們調薪基層的調薪給他們更多的鼓勵讓他們得到更多的支持啦特別現在很多的價格都上漲同時的時候這些如果要留住優秀人才那調薪是一條重要的道路部長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":10950.909,"end":10975.036,"text":"報告委員因為我們國營事業基本上是配合公務員整個調薪但是調薪的幅度也許會高一點但是是配合整個行政院我希望今年持續好不好持續今年度來持續來朝這個方向來研議因為我還是覺得留住人才留住所有的這些都是重要的那如果不斷的調薪的時候其實才能夠帶動這些薪資特別很多的"},{"start":10975.556,"end":11001.954,"text":"在基層的越基層幾乎都在中南部居多啦那越能夠從基層調心的話對於留住人才對於提供提升他們的都會有更大的一個幫助好不好請部長持續朝這個方向好嗎因為還是要配合整個人事總署啦但是獎金的部分也許我們來想一想請部長多思考好不好各項的方案多思考讓我們的重要的人才能夠留在這些企業裡面另外"},{"start":11002.794,"end":11028.129,"text":"像台船也是啦 國艦國造 這幾年也是非常的辛苦但是如果沒有台船 不管是黃海匪出人 不管是國艦國造沒有台船的投入的話 那基本上國家這些政策是難以去完成的所以一樣的同樣道理 我也都希望能夠持續的挑釁 跟剛剛一樣啦不管是這些企業的部分 能夠給予他們更多支持這個對於台船員工 對於吸引到新的年輕人才 因為留在台船都很重要希望部長繼續支持 好嗎"},{"start":11030.63,"end":11058.315,"text":"因為台船它是上市公司嘛它有公司法的相關規定如果可能的話在獎金方面也許我們來做一些思考部裡面有一些可以部裡面還是有相當的一些影響性我還是希望就是至少在關股的部分表達出支持的力道好不好讓台船的員工讓所有這些國營事業員工感受到政府在重視他們在支持他們在第一線打拚的這樣的一個心情 好不好"},{"start":11058.975,"end":11078.998,"text":"好再來我也請教一下其實最近有跟勞動部也在談救治勞工的一個退休金能夠轉到新制去還有勞動部當然有初步演一些方案這個也會牽扯到跟這個員工的權益包括中鋼台船唐榮跟漢祥那其中有一些是雙方合議的我也希望"},{"start":11079.378,"end":11104.333,"text":"未來如果談出來 這個對於勞工是重要的啦因為如果你從舊資能轉到新資區的話以現在的我們的效益的話有可能在退休之後 一個人可以增加兩百萬的退休金那這個對勞工 而且不需要任何其他的額外的一些做作為就可以增加兩百萬 只是轉換而已所以我也希望這個如果將來在合議的過程中的時候部裡面能夠大力的請各公司都能夠支持 好嗎"},{"start":11104.633,"end":11119.343,"text":"因為他需要勞資雙方合議對 但是這個部分有些是法律上的規定我們還是 除了法律之下我們盡量有一個談判部裡面只是展現出一個態度當然我們要依照法律規定來處理啦好不好對 但是要法律上我知道 那個後續我們去做處理"},{"start":11120.223,"end":11146.685,"text":"最後一個請教一下雅灣其實從1.0 2025年到2.0 2027年我也希望部裡面提早來規劃雅灣3.0因為到2027就結束掉我也希望提早來規劃因為特別是現在的205兵工廠也釋出土地之後周邊的其實環境又更不一樣了我希望部長提早來啟動相關雅灣3.0的規劃我相信對高雄對台灣都相當重要好不好可以謝謝部長謝謝好 謝謝賴瑞鴻委員"},{"start":11149.082,"end":11169.072,"text":"那個我想經濟部可能對因為台電中有這些可能肩負著我們一些國家政策任務啦所以有些虧損也不能對所以在員工留財留心我覺得還是可以思考一下好不好謝謝好接下來我們請這一個參與委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":11180.073,"end":11192.125,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部部長還有我們產發署署長以及中油的董事長經濟部部長產發署署長跟中油董事長部長那因為美伊戰爭那當然台灣有"},{"start":11203.328,"end":11224.072,"text":"在2025年有60%的原油是從經由赫姆茲海峽那天然氣也有高達34%那當然如果按照戰爭後國際整個原油價格天然氣價格的一個漲幅類可能汽油跟柴油會暴漲15元跟16.9元"},{"start":11226.913,"end":11244.251,"text":"這樣起來當然整個民生物價那是地獄災難型的一個通膨所以我們現在當然行政院終有緊急的一個措施下去我們現在還有控制在92的一個汽油類是30.7%95是30厘 柴油是29.5%"},{"start":11249.837,"end":11254.601,"text":"這個價格都是啞鈴最低我們相對於跟我們最有競爭關係的韓國甚至到日本我們都價格都遠低於他們當然這個當然要付出代價那中油在這三個禮拜也已經負擔了65億元他三個禮拜就65億元所以這個未來這個漲的一個狀況以及戰爭的後續我們無法預測"},{"start":11276.46,"end":11287.489,"text":"那中油現在有規劃要增資3500億元那也是需要立法院的支持啊那部長你們已經開始在遊說的話你覺得其他的政黨會支持嗎"},{"start":11289.568,"end":11318.128,"text":"我想剛剛趙委員講中油負擔的這個政策任務我們要希望委員大力的支持啦當然啦當然我們當然是支持嘛我們支持我們執政團隊大家我們會支持但是相對的您現在遊說的動作已經啟動了嗎要遊說現在就是要快您這個事情您沒有在這個很就是說現在還在戰爭持續中你一段時間給我拖過去你後面這些東西在一段時間就不理你囉"},{"start":11319.088,"end":11342.603,"text":"在野黨保證不理你那你們以後就是棕油負擔這一筆了你們特別預算就是過不了事實上總質詢的時候有幾位在野黨的委員他們也主動提出來說我們應該要支持棕油對 他們質詢當然會說會支持棕油嘛那是他們說給大家聽實際的支持就是投票才算所以你應該要整個"},{"start":11343.504,"end":11361.157,"text":"包括要追加預算要去支持中友的一個特別預算現在就要拿出來趁現在這個時候已經大家感受到這個時候是中友會替大家平穩物價的這個時候就要拿出來你不能等到幾個月過後搞不好那個時候戰爭結束了已經沒感覺沒人要理你"},{"start":11364.071,"end":11378.552,"text":"我們再跟行政院討論一下你們要跟行政院講很多事就是要快那拖延時間你們是賣不起最後就是忠友自己買單然後又陷入像當時台電我們每次要協助台電的特別預算一千億永遠過不了"},{"start":11381.069,"end":11393.894,"text":"就是這個樣子 好不好好 那事實上我還想跟齁 咱產花署來討論啦現在這個塑膠袋啦 甚至是站在農業的部分齁這個小番茄 他們這個叫做便當茄現在都買不到"},{"start":11398.098,"end":11419.706,"text":"我早上也有一個記者會跟中友討論中友說我們原料的供應沒有短掃原料供應沒有短掃是企業拿得到原料他們記得原料一樣是製作所以這個製作一樣有這個型品出來不得在最末端消費者真正要使用這個塑膠袋的人他買不到了農民要用這個這個包材農業的包材這個小番茄的扁桃茄的人買不到了"},{"start":11427.428,"end":11453.09,"text":"他們就要個別去喊人家要定義 要個別議價 他們沒有議價能力就是用企業就面對大幅度的一個漲價所以經濟部你們有沒有掌握好這樣的狀況以及你們要怎麼因應這個時候是不是有人在囤貨或者是人家預期性心理變成他都超都買的比過去還要多造成整個這個市場上就短掃"},{"start":11454.612,"end":11467.743,"text":"來 經濟部你們要怎麼樣來配合後續的狀況來 我請那個 署長好 那個辦公室那個您關心這個問題的話對民生來講是相當的重要啦所以我們經濟部對這個事情也相當的重視部長"},{"start":11469.545,"end":11471.688,"text":"也召開專案會議針對這些石化大廠它的整個供應的部分也做了很多這個協調那現在石化大廠他們都暫時停止對外的這個輸出以供應國內這樣的一個生產為優先所以"},{"start":11484.848,"end":11495.432,"text":"雖然原料價格是有上漲但是我們要確保整個供應是無虞的但是現在我們發現有一些比較中盤的這些競銷商有一點點在心態上面有點延緩出貨或者是在做囤貨的現象我們要再次呼籲上游的供應是沒有問題的雖然價格有上漲但是大家不要有預期這個心理這樣會導致市場"},{"start":11507.617,"end":11534.104,"text":"秩序的混亂 而且也有違法之語以上對 所以有違法之語這個事情 我覺得要大聲講出來因為你們現在出費是沒有問題啊你們原料是沒有產生嘛然後你們現在也不要外銷到國外去嘛主要是收點國內的民生需要的所以 既然這個原料來源無虞不應該後端的變成這樣 這就是中促問題"},{"start":11534.889,"end":11536.45,"text":"中間這就是違法在囤積違法囤貨的狀況這個東西要發出來真的然後而且真的要去徹查到底有誰在囤貨"},{"start":11545.277,"end":11567.989,"text":"我們也在跟我們商業署也跟那幾個通路商或者是那個百貨公司啊什麼百貨的通路商事實上有在了解跟調查是不是真的有缺貨的狀況那我們也隨時會有一些反應如果有的話我們會來劇中協調應該去第一線啦 去打電話給我請測啦因為現在是末端的他們就是買不到 要不就是用企業嘛"},{"start":11572.251,"end":11590.359,"text":"看起來末端就是這樣的狀況那既然末端是這樣再往前推說上去看到底是在哪一個環節起啊起啊起啊斷掉好不好這個要注意啦好那我最後再再問一個時間比較短我再問一個因為現在總預算現在還沒有通過啦"},{"start":11591.259,"end":11615.226,"text":"那我們事實上從去年丹納斯颱風過後我們知道我們地方的很多排水系統比如說六河大白 比如說南京白水牽扯到的包括我們嘉義縣六角鄉 新港鄉南京 包括水上跟路草 他們整個整治的問題因為總預算沒有過 那今年我們是不是所有的整治計畫都要喊停了 都沒有辦法繼續了呢"},{"start":11617.276,"end":11630.424,"text":"我們還是希望總預算趕快可以通過這個地方的建設是非常的重要對 部長這裡不只是地方建設而已這不是 這是北省的社民案因為去年的風災然後我們也有檢討幾個案包括"},{"start":11633.065,"end":11648.805,"text":"拉高大排要趕快往上游然後趕快逐步的去把它延伸然後去把它的堤防做起來它現在都是那種土地我們只要把它拉高變成比較正常保護安全這個標準比較高的一個堤防結果目前這樣終於算沒過這樣到底今年我會做嗎"},{"start":11651.488,"end":11668.384,"text":"是不是都會卡住延續的舊案還是可以執行啦是啊 可是這些是從丹納斯之後我們規劃的新案啦新案的話就還要等多久對啊 這樣實在你這樣今年就拖延 今年就足足浪費一年了所以這個是不是"},{"start":11669.721,"end":11680.93,"text":"我覺得問題還是要把它凸顯啦你這次在水的工序你今年可以做的就逐步趕快做啊 今年抓農委一年耶現在已經到三月了 我實在是很高興 好不好當然這個 你們也是無奈啦我覺得整個經濟部這邊當然遇到這樣狀況那 但是還是"},{"start":11692.59,"end":11712.236,"text":"規劃一下啦 今年這樣沒辦法有什麼替代方案嗎不然今年萬一鳳梯來就遇到這鳳梯大火這實際上大家會煩惱耶再請經濟部好不好 再跟委員這個做報告一下跟我報告沒有用啦 要總預算趕快通過啦是 哈哈哈哈我煩惱啊 我那體制的違規"},{"start":11721.479,"end":11747.401,"text":"好 下一位我們請劉淑冰委員質詢那因為本委委員的優待已經結束所以請卡委4分鐘準時我會站起來就制止 OK 謝謝好 有請工部長跟台電曾董事長有請工部長跟台電曾董事長"},{"start":11751.939,"end":11768.748,"text":"好 部長好那賴清德總統3月21號上週六說AI時代算力帶來電力缺口才考慮重啟核電但是府方人士當天又馬上改口說台灣至2032年供電無餘請問部長 至2032年是AI算力需要無碳電力不夠還是全台的供電不夠還是你認為都足夠 請回答"},{"start":11778.914,"end":11798.708,"text":"包委員因為我們電力需求事實上還有供應都有滾動式的檢討每一年都會檢討它未來的狀況那現在一直滾動式就是預測到2032年那至少這個部分我們的機組起來跟它的需求方是哪一種電會不夠還是綠電不夠不會不夠"},{"start":11802.21,"end":11807.295,"text":"不會不夠對 都會夠你說不會不夠那您是在打臉我們賴清德總統嗎你這個非常尬詞喔沒有 總統的意思是說2030年之後你總統已經說了AI算力它帶來電力缺口啊2030年就是電力缺口啊非常有尬詞的部長好 我們就繼續下去那我們繼續再往下看呢台大的教授趙家瑋呢預估2030年呢無碳的電力需求能夠達到的是"},{"start":11828.914,"end":11833.395,"text":"700億度 上週經濟部在河岸會專報的時候詢問了我問了你們次長能不能擔保在2030年達到每年700億度呢他支支吾吾的就不敢的承諾那部長這個問題重新再問你你能夠擔保在2030年可以達到每年700億度的再生能源的發電量嗎第一個我們要重新去估算我們都有跟那個大廠的部分對於這個"},{"start":11856.8,"end":11862.064,"text":"所以綠電的需求啦這不需求是你們供應台電的部分要供應欸對對對 綠電需求他們需求的狀況還有我們綠電的供應的狀況是可以達到700億度嗎到目前來講的話不一定是完全是台電供應事實上是民間的比如說離岸風電廠常常都直接賣給了比如說台積電"},{"start":11878.795,"end":11881.718,"text":"他現在整個一起 反正台電目前還是總體的這樣子 或者是用的是買到就是供電職工也都沒有問題啦 那可以我們現在重新review了 前一陣子重新review了以後2030年綠電的供應目前還是可以滿足的幾度 幾多少億度這個我們要再"},{"start":11901.806,"end":11915.298,"text":"再check一下 仔細的盤點因為好像不是700...沒有 如果你們這樣講的話應該是3000億度裡面的30%大概是在900多度喔你們700億度竟然不敢承諾啊不是 我們廠商問過一輪以後那時候的綠電需求應該不到700億度啦我們問的"},{"start":11924.994,"end":11933.739,"text":"好 你們現在我們看到工部長你現在在這邊 你在這邊說應該不到700多我們就的確看到相關資料在呈現繼續再問一個問題就是說因為非核家園的影響導致呢這個核工人才可能就是會有缺乏的問題包括是清大的核工系都找不到人才等等的還包括的是現在還有競爭對手包括的是"},{"start":11948.388,"end":11966.854,"text":"美國官方背景的愛達荷的國家實驗室他們都已經要開出來一年9萬5千美元等於說是一個月是21萬那一年是300萬的這樣的一個年薪來去搶人請問一下目前除了公費留學競爭合工選門之外有沒有任何擬定各種計畫來延展合工人才"},{"start":11967.954,"end":11995.573,"text":"包委員因為就經濟部來講主要還是台電在聘用這樣的人才那董事長講說事實上這個部門人才完全沒有減少而且可能還要增加至少這個台電的部分是這樣子你們現在是增加但是人才沒有你們是需求有增加那是供應我下次問的供應端的部分就是我們現在如果這些核產工人才沒有的話不夠甚至還未來25年的需求"},{"start":11997.854,"end":12012.148,"text":"你認為是都不需要是不是教育部當然他有他的規劃但是至少經濟部的部分我們會把這些人才好好的keep住然後當然國家的原子能"},{"start":12013.789,"end":12040.937,"text":"科技國研院他也有很多的人才是一個鋪的在那邊所以你們就是說是國研院的人才再下去就對了如果我們需要的話我們也可以從那邊聘請過來我們希望這個部分能不能給本席到時候說說你們未來的規劃幫他配合上下一步這部分請經濟部再提供書面報告有關於這一個產商的綠電的所需求的額度還有他的人才的配比謝謝"},{"start":12042.817,"end":12046.823,"text":"謝謝,謝謝羅樹斌委員下個天請賴志寶委員質詢謝謝主席,幾個先進有請公布長有請公布長"},{"start":12067.725,"end":12085.095,"text":"部長你好辛苦啦齁 但是我要講一下喔 你說電你這個估到2032年就都不夠 啊不夠就是不會停電啊對不對 不會停電吧你說夠啊 我們文山區昨天就停電啊停了一萬多戶啊"},{"start":12088.177,"end":12089.638,"text":"報告委員我們講的是電力滿足供應是沒有問題但是電網韌性的部分我們還是要"},{"start":12111.565,"end":12140.051,"text":"電網認証員工很久了啊 你也你好我們都給你們支持錢啊預算任性的提高我們都可以給錢啊對不對當然台電辛苦了齁這個我們沒有剋休台電台電的員工都非常辛苦我們都非常的這個要尊敬他們認真這次停電時間不長大概一個多小時一個多小時但是對還好現在不是夏天啦大家是苦苦撐啊 常常苦苦撐啊"},{"start":12142.252,"end":12166.727,"text":"就是說你 部長啊 你在這裡說這麼大聲人家老百姓看什麼 我們除了停電沒有啊我們東西還要去沒有就這樣啊75%好像6分鐘就已經復電了但是有一部分的確是您剛才提到的還是一個多小時啦來 現在來看啦 跟這個人員很有關係的現在你的人員比到底是多少7"},{"start":12168.829,"end":12189.363,"text":"煤再升幾不幾現在氣的部分大概將近百分之五十左右啦氣大概四十幾啦快五十了煤咧煤咧煤大概三十幾再升十一十二左右十三十三點多那邊請問那邊我們的油跟氣有多少從那邊"},{"start":12195.418,"end":12197.901,"text":"氣的部分大概百分之三十多一點"},{"start":12199.261,"end":12226.214,"text":"你現在台灣的氣力剩幾天?台灣的氣力天然氣我們法律規定是11天我們現在大概是有12天12天?油呢?油大概規定是90天嘛我們現在100多天啊 煤呢?煤是規定30現在大概40幾所以都夠是不是?你又講說你去外面吊貨去送什麼地方吊貨"},{"start":12227.72,"end":12256.212,"text":"從什麼地方掉貨現貨市場上從什麼國家掉啦主要現在比較大量的是美國跟澳洲都跟美國買啦 既然美國要求我們縮短貿易逆差嘛就這個時候都跟美國買啊的確是有增加的確是有增加美國那個比例有增加多少原來呢Regular的時候大概是一成多一點啦那我們預計逐漸的會增加"},{"start":12259.588,"end":12274.405,"text":"呃 要再算一下因為在現貨市場調到的話是最後一個問題我還是關心啦賴總統 賴清德已經講 尤其長官的長官都講了是核二核三要重啟時間管是沒有"},{"start":12277.363,"end":12289.207,"text":"時間表時間表就是自主安全檢查的時間大概18個月到兩年可以縮短啦不要忘了賴清德選總統的時候就講了緊急狀態可以啟用核電"},{"start":12294.501,"end":12307.819,"text":"現在難道不緊急嗎?Energy supply很有問題 難道不緊急嗎?一直在吊 吊個一年一年 也吐得很厲害現在就緊急情況啊 現在就是緊急情況啊現在就應該可以啟用核電了 可不可以這樣"},{"start":12309.381,"end":12331.139,"text":"安全為重啦我知道啦 但是安全的檢查可以說短嗎 難道不是嗎這個還要跟西屋公司 因為他才是原廠我們要跟他配合 怎麼樣去這個檢查要更換什麼樣的你們這個讓我這句話問得下去齁那個 董事長要不要講一下安全檢查最快可以壓縮到幾天完成幾天喔"},{"start":12337.479,"end":12352.127,"text":"幾個月可以啦 他說18個月啊對 我跟委員報告我們現在的期程規劃就是這個樣子那我們基礎大修工作都已經在做安全檢查的工作也跟原廠已經簽訂工作他們的技術人員全部開始動員"},{"start":12353.127,"end":12382.228,"text":"那我要這樣說這個事情就是這個安全檢查工作坦白講 河岸會要求我們的所有的工作我們現在是可以平行進行的都在平行進行可以 聽說短啦不要忘了這個我再強調一次賴清德總統說緊急情況可以啟用核電我跟委員報告我們做的安檢的所有工作做到什麼地步我們就會跟河岸會這邊做相關的一個部長啊 最後一句話啦"},{"start":12383.745,"end":12405.281,"text":"這個如果總統宣布緊急命令因為如果萬一這個戰爭還沒結束這個時候很快呢我認為很快就可以啟用核電了啦沒有討論這個他講的賴總統講不是我講的緊急情況緊急命令這件事情沒有討論緊急命令這件事情是啦我知道了沒有討論過兩天就有了"},{"start":12410.114,"end":12437.077,"text":"好 謝謝世保委員那接下來我宣布一下我們中午不休息延長開會時間至議程處理完畢待會兒劉建國委員質詢完畢之後休息五分鐘接下來我們請賴慧穎委員質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請經濟部長跟台電鄭文森董事長我們請經濟部跟這個鄭文森董事長"},{"start":12442.971,"end":12460.564,"text":"兩位午安我想那個部長那個董事長今天針對台電在3月11號發布的一個公文他說企業的容量如果達到1000瓦以上的話那應該原則上要採取高壓的一個供電那這一項措施來跟"},{"start":12461.084,"end":12477.753,"text":"你們兩位做一個探討那本席其實要講的台電這一項措施背後的理由大致上就是說你希望就是如果容量大了仍然用公壓用電的話那陷入的電流會比較大也容易造成的限損"},{"start":12478.433,"end":12500.883,"text":"那就是說用電戶如果自行設置高壓設備跟變壓器的話那也容易把這個降壓的位置拉進了那個電端理論上是會減少輸電的一個損失那還有第三個就是從整體電網管理的一個角度上高壓供電也比較便於系統的規劃"},{"start":12502.364,"end":12525.076,"text":"可是這個邏輯上來看就是在某些穩定其中就是我們負載非常明確的一個大型工業場域裡頭也許是成立可是如果用在農移木業的用電型態其實這個就不成立了不完全是當然就是說我想台灣的這個農移木業還是"},{"start":12526.772,"end":12551.395,"text":"很多百分之八十他甚至百分之九十是在小型的那個農營木業那如果如果就是說台電把這一個企業容量就是定在就是一千瓦以上的時候這個政策的目的當然就是說是利益良善可是如果沒有辦法一體適用的時候我想在這裡是不是"},{"start":12552.236,"end":12568.116,"text":"要請那個部長回答我這樣的一個政策沒有辦法就是一體試用 農業用電跟一般用電其實增加了農民這麼大的一個成本你知道光是 我已經講過了百分之 其實"},{"start":12569.738,"end":12574.48,"text":"我相信不管是在維修 不管是在建築的成本上面對現代的農業來講都是一個很大的困難部長請你回應我這個問題"},{"start":12595.01,"end":12610.126,"text":"報告委員剛剛董事長跟我講說他只是針對新的部分有這樣的要求那原來的基本上是沒有這樣的要求啦不是一樣啊我已經講了我們的信務產業基本上它的規模都是小的啊"},{"start":12610.586,"end":12638.293,"text":"它的規模都是小的如果你這樣子好像你就是用這一條來卡就是在未來我們的畜牧產業它的規模化變大了因為這個成本那個增加的成本這個不是一般的畜牧產業可以來應付的好 那你甚至就是說可以講一下我們回應一下快速說一下第一個事情我們只從就是舊的不去檢討我們處理新的新的也是引導它"},{"start":12639.513,"end":12664.919,"text":"因為就像您說的我們現在連畜牧業都科技化一科技化就用到電對那用到電其實你如果有相對應的電力設備其實安全什麼東西都會比較好也會比較節省電但我知道一開始的時候可能就是費用因為規模沒有那麼大啊董事長規模沒有那麼大啊你這樣子的話等於是把那個榮業畜牧業卡死啊對對對委員我把那個問題一次回答完"},{"start":12665.599,"end":12681.958,"text":"就是我覺得規模上面我們再做一點檢討因為其實台電每次公布的政策遇到農業都要修正我想說幾乎每次都這樣這一次會不會我覺得依照細節的部分我們來看你如果真的很大間的你沒有用高壓其實也不好我要這樣說但是你如果真的是"},{"start":12682.398,"end":12691.103,"text":"半大不小比較靠哪一邊我們來稍微研究一下因為我們只針對新的所以我們可以一個一個有我們的區處來協助輔導好不好那我覺得這個規範我們會來彈性化董事長我覺得這樣子也沒有針對的一個問題來做探討你如果是你現行法規都可以換款住宅商辦電動車還有技術的用戶"},{"start":12706.713,"end":12724.755,"text":"2300萬人多少人是開電動車可是我們每天都是要吃這個豬肉吃這個雞肉報告委員我們基本上原則上其實就是不會硬性的去規定這個事但我們像有機會跟這一些畜牧產業等等農戶能夠"},{"start":12725.916,"end":12741.894,"text":"做出一些合理的調整那我覺得我們一定會去彈性調整這一點您大概放心因為台電在很多因為台電其實是服務業我想說怎麼樣去fit用戶端的需要我們盡量不是用硬性規定的方式這一點我們會來做我想說我們會來檢討好"},{"start":12743.596,"end":12770.516,"text":"那個董事長部長我想就是服務台電服務就是我們百姓的一個心情跟態度我們都是長期都是肯定的可是在這裡我想這個彈性的一個調整我們需要再充分的一個溝通那我希望你們帶回去充分的再那個討論一下謝謝好 謝謝賴委員謝謝好 接下來我們請這個葛路軍委員質詢"},{"start":12793.462,"end":12803.119,"text":"好 我們讓工部長稍微喘口氣很辛苦啦好 那謝謝主席有請工部長有請工部長 謝謝"},{"start":12810.556,"end":12825.586,"text":"各位好部長好我想隨著賴總統21號有表示核二核三具備重啟運轉條件我想這個都是大家一起的努力也不用特別感謝誰台電也已經在準備重啟程序預計3月底要重啟計畫送核安會審議"},{"start":12830.089,"end":12849.791,"text":"那在這裡我想也跟這個大家都這個同步一下其實我們根據這個核管法的第16條跟16-1條事實上重啟計劃有兩個要件第一個是再運轉計劃項目這是大家現在比較多討論的但事實上還有一個是自主安全檢查要給核安會"},{"start":12850.972,"end":12879.251,"text":"自主安全評估其實我想部長你應該非常清楚裡面有非常多的項目比如說老化評估輻射評估耐震評估等等上週台電有來叫我委員會有來做報告說以河山廠為例針對涉及原廠制裁權的技術評估案分析美國西屋公司已經在今年2月開展相關工作當然從我們的立場是說前年大前年都應該可以趕快展開但沒關係現在展開了其他部分則是由工研院跟國研院"},{"start":12881.493,"end":12891.62,"text":"來共組團隊來評估請問一下部長自主安全檢查項目裡面有哪些是需要原廠評估哪些是不用的我們都列出來給您請您回覆"},{"start":12900.031,"end":12922.139,"text":"主要是河島區跟他的IPO跟西屋IPO有關的這個部分委託給西屋來做我們現在講第16條我們一列出來給你老化評估老化分析中期安全分析輻射相關議題耐震評估以及其他金主管機關指定文件哪些是"},{"start":12923.991,"end":12949.359,"text":"需要原廠評估哪些不用原廠我跟委員報告就是說這個是我們的分界式項目就是哪些設備那最主要是跟他河島有關的是由他來做那當然最前面這幾項尤其是河島區的老化分析老化管理還有實現老化分析等等這個確實是最重要的一塊所以123的部分比較跟原廠相關"},{"start":12950.592,"end":12973.372,"text":"好那這個我想不管怎麼樣啦自主安全檢查很多項目但運轉辦法的第16條之一其實裡面有提到經營者可以分階段送也就是說台電不用等到全部的自主安全檢查都完成才能夠交給核安會對嗎只要其中一項完成就可以提交想請教一下部長目前這個部分部內"},{"start":12974.093,"end":13001.313,"text":"或者跟台電這裡有沒有溝通怎麼規劃是打算全部完成以後才繳交還是單項先完成就先繳給核安會我們要完成什麼就送什麼很好這個我想這個本來也很擔心就是說擠在最後一起其實會影響到時間單項完成就繳那很好那請問一下針對各項有沒有預計的時間就像你們有說預告3月底要送再運轉計畫那耐震要多久"},{"start":13001.913,"end":13021.472,"text":"輻射要多久 老化分析要多久 有沒有一個時程表我跟委員報告 就是說這些事情我們現在有一些初步的規劃但最重要的還是會回到那個老化時間分析的那一塊那老化分析可以時程拉久 相對或絕對的時間"},{"start":13023.894,"end":13050.132,"text":"因為通常第一段工作都是這樣就是說你一個設備如果你要去評估它老化狀況你要把要評估的項目這些相關的東西都抓出來是我們會比較早出來的會是這一塊董事長那我理解就是scope的確定但是因為現在需求恐急嘛我們賴總統也喊了嘛為了AI發展如果我們拖到了哇我們就對不起我們賴總統的AI兩個字在名字裡面啊時程有沒有具體的不要有空頭支票"},{"start":13051.333,"end":13067.423,"text":"時辰告訴全國國人我跟委員報告國際也都在關心我們能源安全嘛剛剛一整天都在講我只能夠說我要說的事情就是這樣我們就是依照應該有的核安的一些規範跟程序去提送我們的報告"},{"start":13068.783,"end":13072.886,"text":"好我想說分階段分階段只是沒有時間表是這樣嗎第16之一我們就是沒有錯完成一部分可以分階段提送這個條文裡面有我們就會照著條文做好沒關係我想這一個還是要時程要趕快把握要清楚的告訴國人不然我們等於是在這個沒有在幫忙我們的賴總統要推進我們這個整個AI的產業"},{"start":13094.241,"end":13116.1,"text":"那另外我想一講到重啟經濟部就一直提重啟三原則什麼核廢有解無解的那我想問一下經濟部長您知道河山運轉40年來發電產生的用過燃料棒的體積面積占多大嗎有沒有概念3700數數量我講的是面積面積多大多大"},{"start":13117.099,"end":13128.285,"text":"有沒有概念沒有概念嗎事實上您說明謝謝主席我爭取一點點時間請說明他一宿的話是多大就是這麼大3000多宿我這裡給大家一個數字我們算過了0.34座奧運標準泳池"},{"start":13135.169,"end":13156.224,"text":"其實跟大家想像中巨大的這個儲存的區域其實真的不用我們也都現場都在那邊看我想台南董事長應該理解嘛對不對你點頭微笑委員我這樣講他不能夠緊密的疊在一起所以就不叫儲置了所以他基本上小於一個"},{"start":13158.074,"end":13179.847,"text":"奧運的泳池的大小現在的處置方式嘛對不對現在的處置方式我講的是現在現在的狀況是這樣啦你現在都擺在燃料池裡面如果這個是一個大家都可以接受現在全世界都有很多擺放的方法我們都理解啦我現在講的是現在好不好那我想啦這個最後我還是要提醒部長啦這個"},{"start":13183.43,"end":13197.08,"text":"開燈關燈不要一直開開關關核電廠更不應該如此所以我也希望接下來的推進應該要照剛剛所講的分階段進行而且要趕快希望能夠有具體的時程"},{"start":13198.021,"end":13213.166,"text":"不要真的拖到了我們的AI產業的發展這個現在這是全民共同的期盼 可以嗎 部長了解了解好 謝謝好 謝謝葛如君委員 謝謝龔部長跟陳董接下來我們請這個劉建國委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請龔部長"},{"start":13229.281,"end":13254.762,"text":"部長好在已經規劃114學年度在燃脂科技的產業園區設立這個四患的幼兒園然後並於六處產業園區設置教保中心總設開設21班然後招生416人我想這樣方向我予以肯定但是還是顯示這個經濟部重視產業園區的工作者的托育的一個需求"},{"start":13255.382,"end":13277.611,"text":"不過從規劃來看,整體的量好像不足,114年到現在才21班,招生416人例如像我們的雲林科技工業區,目前有教保務中心這麼龐大的一個產業園區裡面,只有一個教保中心然後對照所現在招生的人數,以全國來講,你就知道杯水車薪"},{"start":13278.82,"end":13304.961,"text":"落差值蠻大部長有沒有辦法用最快的速度盤整規劃執行這個政策方向我覺得我們是要全力推動的對我也肯定對但是速度好像不是在一個園區我希望全全國的園區都來共同推動我覺得這是好事情那我們現在就是盡量的跟廠協會還有找到適合的地點還有他們的需要"},{"start":13306.481,"end":13330.182,"text":"只要找到地點需要的話 我們就趕快全力來進行對 這應該有一個期程嘛 對不對就是說我們希望擴大到全國然後我們希望有一定的這樣的一個產生的一個效益所以你一定要把期程訂出來然後我們要達到極所以上才叫達標嘛我們應該有KPI的一個指數來做這樣的一個評估吧跟考核吧"},{"start":13331.282,"end":13355.992,"text":"好謝謝委員的指導那這個案子就是幼保中心等等我們過去是跟教育部的國教署密切的合作然後一起用他們的資源那我們會調查區內廠商的需求也就是說有多少的育兒人口然後呢時程的規劃那我們找到用地之後就會來push我簡單請教一句話啦因為經濟部還是要有效率跟效益嘛對不對14年21班然後15年要擴大到幾班"},{"start":13361.393,"end":13381.041,"text":"這個數字我再查一下你們能不能馬上,我時間有限了好不好,能不能馬上給我們好,這個我... 會後是不是會後,我們把我們的規劃給那個委員辦公室部長,這是一個新的在推動的一個政策嘛,對不對我們會全力推動 趙立強應該都記在腦中啦至少一定會比去年要多啦 多一倍"},{"start":13382.165,"end":13404.882,"text":"我們盡量努力 多10% 盡量努力 多110%你這個政策要走了 我們就是要規劃清楚嘛 對不對包含我們就要看到執行的一個 一個進展跟成效嘛所以照理講一個新的政策 一百十四年多一百十五年多 這是應該記在頭上的東西嘛包委員這樣 就是說我們會把全台灣全區 少貨一次"},{"start":13405.362,"end":13416.608,"text":"阿這樣的話就知道說到底需求有多大阿怎麼進行五分階段應該早就少過一次了啦不會到現在我再要求才少嘛對不對好那如果要這樣講我就具體要求因為時間的關係齁我請經濟部立即盤底點各產業這個園區的推需求包含現有的量能缺口及這樣的一個可處理的一個量能嘛齁"},{"start":13427.833,"end":13436.881,"text":"一個月內提出擴大產業園區推幅計畫,明確的規劃四次地點,其層及資源配置,可以嗎?可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,可以,"},{"start":13448.789,"end":13469.852,"text":"該窮洪啦齁 一個月後就有了啦一個月後啦齁伊利西亞廠協會啦 甚至也提出運營產業園區勞工親子活動公園也期望透過結合在地的環境打造一個兼具休憩 遊憩的學習功能的公共空間讓勞工 其家庭的工作之餘也有高品質的生活與親子互動的誠意 可以吧"},{"start":13471.441,"end":13481.048,"text":"這可以嗎?因為有的綠地裡面我們就可以去加強這相關的一些設施設備嘛應該是可以啦,謝謝好,另外一個也是30秒就好了AI訓練的培訓基地裡面在140到115年3月上旬已經累計培育12萬"},{"start":13490.094,"end":13512.1,"text":"多的人次然後2014年9月到2015年的3月上旬已有高達將近三萬零一個是累計一個是短短的不到半年時間就三萬多人次但是量子還是遠遠不足到之前在前部長的時候現任的院長我在院會特別提出來那也承諾了我們提供長子給你們環球"},{"start":13514.421,"end":13537.598,"text":"對 但是我們會跟 因為現在可能進駐的雲科大跟虎科大都有意願那我們會跟他協調可能要一個AI的專門的一個設置中心或者是您這邊提到的育成中心等等一些情況基本上叫做育成中心那兩個要放在一塊 我樂觀其成嘛但是速度好像很慢這趕不上真正的AI的速度 這樣就會不太好"},{"start":13538.278,"end":13566.6,"text":"因為這個整個方案還要報到行政院去啊我知道我知道 但是你們現在連把整個計畫都弄好要報到行政院的速度已經慢了很久了啦之前一直協調說進駐這個環球科大到底有但是後來終於啦我告訴你 保證啦 你用擔保心書啦 好不好應該是一個星期內 兩個星期內就可以把這樣的計畫完整的呈報到行政院去啦"},{"start":13566.86,"end":13591.015,"text":"是啦 但是這個還是要跟教育部有一些協調我知道啊 但是我們已經協調一年多時間了捏應該他就不是 他們各大府各大他要叫我們全部好 你就經濟部再協調教育部 好不好我最後一句話就好齊道部長我請你有那個能耐還是管部長你來做就有那個能耐啦好不好 一個禮拜內啦好不好謝謝啦 謝謝主席 謝謝休息五分鐘"},{"start":13837.227,"end":13838.012,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":13940.404,"end":13959.031,"text":"好 請大家回座 繼續會議 請洪玉祥 趙偉詢答好 我們請這個股部長跟這個董事長 台電董事長還有我們的鄭董事長 趙偉好"},{"start":13961.345,"end":13986.92,"text":"那我想這幾天對兩位都是一個極大的震撼就腦筋急轉彎我們是這整個永和非和急轉彎就這樣子那我覺得今天跟各位探討的大概就是比較因為我看完這整個兩份的報告當然對於這個時程對於這些的安檢這些要求反正我們就是遵照核安法的這個核管法的這樣的一個規定"},{"start":13988.881,"end":14016.021,"text":"但是我想要看到的是說成本的估算就是說可能剛剛我坐在上面聽各位的詢答的話基本上可能也沒有辦法說你一定估出很準但是我還是說這個東西的話還是讓全國的民眾有一些知的權利所以我大概去幫你算了一下假設我們把這些的核電也就是說核一核二三這邊停下來的話"},{"start":14016.821,"end":14022.054,"text":"大概他們發的度數我去上台電的官網統計一下大概差不多400億度"},{"start":14023.749,"end":14046.356,"text":"那410度的一個成本來就是說410度的這個缺電量大約啦我大概估是這樣那如果我們全部都是用燃氣來發的話來補這樣的缺口假設我不計燃煤的話那一定都是火力為主嘛因為我們剛剛燃氣的比重大概在5成可能接近了應該是5成多燃煤的話應該是30幾加起來應該是81點多還是82"},{"start":14050.857,"end":14057.613,"text":"那我大概算一下大概這裡頭的非核發電的價差大概這5年大概就差不多是3040億左右"},{"start":14059.773,"end":14083.855,"text":"那另外根據台電的一些的預估就是在核二核三的重啟的成本預估啦那只是當時的預估那基本上來講大概現在的話我猜啦因為物價的上漲嘛大概我抓1000到1200億所以這個大概是我們把核電停下來之後得算直接的一個成本"},{"start":14085.083,"end":14113.653,"text":"那另外呢我們要算的就是說因為核四因為不在這一次的題目裡面那核四的資產的減損大概是2849億然後呢因為我們現在這些的缺口他只能用火力的一個方式去補這樣的缺口因為我們再生能源大概現在看起來照剛剛你們的回答以及我查的數據大概今年大概13目前13點多的一個%的一個發電的一個占比"},{"start":14114.864,"end":14138.513,"text":"所以這個時候來講的話我透過這一個燃氣去做那加上這一些的燃氣的一個價格上上下下都會有有時候高有時候低所以大概這邊的台電的虧損當然我們講過還有一些政策的一個補助大概的話累虧大概有4千億因為我們借錢還是要有利息所以這些的話我們把這些也列入這個間接的成本"},{"start":14139.153,"end":14160.758,"text":"另外因為你用火力電廠的空污的控制 碳捕捉這一塊的話因為我們要降低這個碳排的這個係數所以大概 蘇菇去抓一下你們的預算書大概2017到25大概投入了700億的台幣那另外的話 因為我們要強韌電網嘛另外還有一些儲能 因為在深圳我們有儲能額外的支出大概是1545億左右"},{"start":14163.439,"end":14186.132,"text":"所以大概如果直接去抓的話大概是差不多6000億的間接那再加上前面假設我們低估一點4000億大概差不多是一兆那我不曉得部長跟董事長對這樣子的數字如果你認為我說的不對那你就要提報告給我如果是差不多這個東西的話就請兩位回答這樣子"},{"start":14189.625,"end":14213.446,"text":"精算的部分我們還是要精算不過行政部門都是要依法行政那這個核管法裡面規定的是營運40年以後就不能再營運然後或者是說在核一核二廠燃料池已經堆滿了乾式儲存不能再蓋地方政府不發給我們執照水保法的執照的話我們也沒有辦法去做處理所以"},{"start":14215.168,"end":14231.267,"text":"台電公司完全是依法來行政明白明白這些都是依法行政但是我還是希望說我們去算出一些精準的成本好不好再列入給我一個報告這樣子好再來的話就是因為我們常常在蔡英文總統任期的時候絕對不漲電價"},{"start":14233.683,"end":14242.22,"text":"那這種社會的成本的話大概台電5年大概漲了5次大概10年裡頭漲了45%當然有人估38大概30幾到40幾都有人估"},{"start":14246.547,"end":14274.408,"text":"不過包委員因為民生用電幾乎都沒有漲而且這還我現在講的是民生用電民生用電幾乎沒有漲對就是說你如果把它平均下來的話大概不管是產業用電整本民生用電不會是3塊75現在是2塊多對我說這個把它是平均起來是這樣但是就是說你這個電價漲產業成本漲我的生產的價格會提高所以這個東西來講還是會造成我的一個什麼通膨的一個壓力"},{"start":14275.729,"end":14293.123,"text":"所以這個民眾的感受就很不好你不相信問現在的民眾來講他還是電價有被漲所以我是覺得這個地方來講的話他會影響到我們整個這一個通膨那你CPI的年增率也要好好去控制我想這個成本比較如社會成本也要去控制一下"},{"start":14294.195,"end":14311.3,"text":"那另外的話就是說因為我必須要用火力去發電所以這個時候來講的話我們的燃氣燃煤那這種健康的損害我們的肺癌的話大概已經連續基本就是第一名了大概連續二十幾年他起碼連續三年都是第一那這個在中南部的民眾來講是"},{"start":14313.341,"end":14328.075,"text":"他會直接的去聯想所以這一塊的話我也希望是說將來在這些的火力發電廠的等等還是要逐步達成這個落實就燃氣組增加我們的這些燃煤的發電組就是應該要停啦"},{"start":14328.695,"end":14345.171,"text":"那我覺得這個東西也是要依法那千萬不要再說當然了你明天會告訴我說我是要緊急備援用電所以我還沒有辦法完全等等我有時候還是要啟動這個還是要去控制這件事情第二個來講就是我們企業現在的講電"},{"start":14347.011,"end":14368.954,"text":"但總統是說我的AI需求算力這些東西但是我是覺得我們企業現在不只是RE100我們要24x7的CFS臨時無碳的這樣子的一個電所以我覺得在這一塊的話如果你的火力還沒發電的話事實上對我們的碳費碳稅的增加我希望也在這樣子的評估報告裡面一併再交給我們來看"},{"start":14369.835,"end":14382.54,"text":"所以我是希望把這些點就先算出來因為合規合乎安全我想這沒問題但是我想要看到的是一本帳那把這個東西算清楚然後再來適時的公開在我們的網站上面"},{"start":14383.973,"end":14400.675,"text":"那另外我對再生能源也是希望不要再跳票了所以那個東西一直往下修然後到2022年一直修到現在一直延宕到說我2028年才會到20%那我對今年的達成率我覺得也很"},{"start":14401.576,"end":14429.577,"text":"不樂觀啦所以我是覺得這一塊來講可能還是要請這個經濟部再去加以處理那最後因為我不能耽誤時間我覺得啦這個具體的訴求就是說在這個裡頭大概我們一些重啟的時程預算風險評估跟合費的處理反正這邊都要做嘛台電這邊也做了一大堆的一個不管是老化的評估等等我想這個我給你比較寬裕的時間因為我們工程我們還是希望看到比較詳細的規劃"},{"start":14431.138,"end":14454.684,"text":"再來就是需求跟能源的配比尤其在AI我現在也看不到AI需求電算中心的算力他所需要的電力的這樣子的規劃我現在也找不到也看不到那這也會影響我們的能源的配比這樣子那當然最後的話我是希望說整個這些核電的重啟跟審查當然還是要送到立法院嘛對不對讓我們這些立委可以做一個監督大概這我的訴求是這樣謝謝謝謝"},{"start":14463.646,"end":14476.968,"text":"好 現在請郭國文委員質詢謝謝主席 有請經濟部工部長"},{"start":14484.775,"end":14506.34,"text":"各位好 部長好 部長那個2月24號的時候您開了一個美國宣布科珍15%一二條條款對於這個產業的影響的這個記者會當中也特別強調對汽車零組件沒有影響但事實上來說汽車零組件從去年的4月的這個對等關稅川普川普之後呢就高達27.5%的這個部分已經為期一年了"},{"start":14510.521,"end":14529.795,"text":"那當然美國內部的整個國內的程序的完成是一個重要且關鍵可是從2月24號從去年到現在其實維持已經一段時間那以至於呢 現在造成什麼樣的結果跟現象呢我覺得部長你真的要去了解去苦民所苦 了解產業的痛以台灣來說呢 它汽車零組件我們是攻擊過"},{"start":14531.616,"end":14554.356,"text":"但我們競爭對手主要是韓國那韓國的這個稅率的部分15%那我們仍然處於27.5的這種高稅率的情況底下就造成了這種轉單的效應那轉單之後呢訂單往韓國集中韓國沒有辦法消化之後他又轉回來台灣台灣做什麼就變代工"},{"start":14555.347,"end":14574.242,"text":"就利潤外移台灣製造的現象就產生了這種現象真的是在地方特別是中南部汽車零組件的一個重鎮的地方真的是哀鴻遍野部長怎麼會沒有影響影響很大怎麼辦"},{"start":14576.638,"end":14597.285,"text":"我們本來是希望ART如果這個或者是那個MLU的這個關稅趕快抵定以後開始實施啊事實上我們就可以降到15嘛是啊但是還沒有嘛這一段時間我們就那有什麼辦法你不能一直講沒有你政府沒有辦法那業者該怎麼辦啊你現在從2月24號你就這樣宣布啦而且從去年到現在你只要"},{"start":14597.665,"end":14608.979,"text":"你們就我側面了解詢問貴部的話你說等到台美對等貿易協定ART在美國完成國內程序那你至少要知道一下你們追蹤的狀況怎麼樣嘛讓業者心裡頭有譜嘛一個禮拜還是兩個禮拜"},{"start":14616.104,"end":14640.61,"text":"這個還是要等美國他的這個法院測完貫新了解一下嘛你也要做出你的努力啊有有有我們每個禮拜都跟美國在每個禮拜就對了那現在狀況怎麼樣就是他們還在這個法院的這個準備因為他現在在準備301啦然後301一旦完備以後就會我再想一下那301什麼時候完備301他們要一段時間的調查哇"},{"start":14643.506,"end":14660.04,"text":"要調查到民國幾年中間會不會有另外的安排這個我們會密切的跟美方來做接觸這樣子好不好你把你最近的狀況待會會後給本席一份我給那個相關的業者交代要越具體越好麻煩一下"},{"start":14660.6,"end":14677.809,"text":"那另外一個部分呢有關於這個經濟部最新公布的全國的電力資源的供需報告當中到2032年每天都有備載容量維持10%的這個部分可是這個10%的部分啊也就是說呢你要把你本身自建的機組啊賣延擋"},{"start":14679.61,"end":14708.599,"text":"沒有延宕 但是我知道台電自己本身就會延宕那平常你還有民間的國光、麥寮、森霸等民間的IPP的部分還有地方的黃屏跟公關都要處理好結果呢 出現了什麼問題第一個呢高雄興達發電廠新建的機組在去年9月的時候發生爆炸這個有沒有調查報告有 有調查報告那調查報告給本席一份二來的部分呢你民間推動不成的時候你現在森霸二期剛完成沒有多久"},{"start":14709.824,"end":14734.975,"text":"我跟你講欸 真的 馬上又複製了綠電的KPI模式欸複製了綠電的KPI模式就會導致什麼 差速會變成翻車啊哪有二期剛完成而已 你現在對外已經講說你接下來又要送這個環評論壇了地方完全不知道 議論紛紛 十分反彈好不容易建立了地方的信任關係 已經引起公憤了"},{"start":14737.322,"end":14761.17,"text":"政府你應該公開大剌剌去跟地方講清楚嘛是因為2奈米的問題還是因為什麼樣的關鍵都沒有講不要說我立議啊地方的議員啊 里長啊 大家齁地方溝通是一定要的測才不會測啦地方溝通是一定的標準程序現在就沒有啊你們現在開始啟動程序之後對方都傳出風聲啊所有這個問題啊"},{"start":14765.442,"end":14790.675,"text":"先斬後奏嘛 幹了再說嘛後面看要怎麼收拾嘛 誰在收拾都不是台電啦 也不是經濟部啦我們等一個民意代表啦有人這樣幹的嗎不是 標準程序是一定要地方溝通現在已經豐盛出來 已經送了那個環評論壇啦 部長你去追一下啦我意思是說 曾董事長也在你旁邊嘛不要那麼急啦"},{"start":14792.111,"end":14817.711,"text":"我來瞭解一下 信任關係最重要啦人家已經給你做一季做一季 都配合你了你恆恆出了就要處理三個季好 我來瞭解一下對嗎 不對嗎 手足好就好嘛你急大家也急嘛 大家誰不知道說需要電但是不能這樣幹嘛文明一點啦 別這麼粗魯啦 拜託一下好 請經濟部多家與地方溝通謝謝 謝謝國務委員"},{"start":14821.84,"end":14835.4,"text":"接下来我们请李玉玲委员咨询谢谢谢谢主席 请工部长请工部长 谢谢"},{"start":14845.323,"end":14869.438,"text":"部长午安已经从早上讲到现在大家关心的议题都在经济跟我们的发电的问题那本期想先请教部长在1月跟2月的时候我们台美之间已经有先签订了台美的投资的MOU还有台美的对等关税贸易的协定的ART这里面特别有提到了就是我们汽车的零组件获得了关税的"},{"start":14869.798,"end":14873.604,"text":"最惠國的待遇所以我們產業把這個心都定下來了但是這個ART要來執行的時候這是我們大家很樂觀看待的如果"},{"start":14883.7,"end":14889.983,"text":"美國決定不要用AR廳而是用這個1930年的關稅法用337條337條裡面講到一個很重要的就是他要對於這個專利侵權啟動這個調查"},{"start":14899.907,"end":14906.81,"text":"其中這個調查所以產業界也很擔心所以不知道我們這個經濟部有做好怎麼樣協助產業目前他大概會針對哪些的這個廠商來做這個調查那因為這個337條款出來的時候就是制裁的"},{"start":14915.874,"end":14923.241,"text":"它不用給你ART 它用散熱器調管的話那對我們出口值 這個會影響多大因為我們這個零組件 汽車零組件出口到美國將近佔了50%如果被影響的話 整個產業鏈 上下產業鏈都會被影響這個衝擊有多大 我們這經濟部有做好評估嗎"},{"start":14939.612,"end":14962.438,"text":"他這個只有通用公司一家而且是有一些品項不是所有的品項那大概是有10家的公司10家10家公司可是上下的產業鏈會影響啊對我講受到調查的部分對啊如果這調查出來結果對我們不利的話呢你們要做什麼幫忙跟協助我們現在來講的話就是他如果需要"},{"start":14963.558,"end":14989.665,"text":"法律上的諮詢 這個我們是一定會幫你對 法律的資源你會來協助那最重要你要協助他們收集證據來打這個官司 對不對對 就是法律上的協助我們會來協助就是法律上的美國的這個調查是否屬實如果萬一被控侵權成立的話那一個品項說老實話就是不要出口我們開發出真正有這個"},{"start":14991.105,"end":15001.333,"text":"有真正的不要侵權不要一下子就放棄你要協助他們收集資料證據他只有少數的品項而已不是所有的品項這個是對於專利的侵權這專利的問題所以我們還是在協助廠上接下來本席想請問部長在這個ART裡面特別有提到我們美國的進口關稅這個關稅17.5%要逐年下降是不是"},{"start":15019.349,"end":15041.608,"text":"欸你說講汽車的部分是對 汽車 汽客進公關稅 幾年內要歸零欸 詳細的好像是ART是有談到嘛 是不是有啊 有啊三年內歸零是不是它是說即刻即刻啦 好像是即刻即刻 就馬上歸零嗎對 好像是確定是逐年還是不是逐年嗎確定答案給我 確定 即刻"},{"start":15043.073,"end":15070.842,"text":"應該是即刻等於說今年就歸零了要生效的時候現在還沒有生效什麼時候生效就是跟美國它因為它法律上還是要有一些重建因為它原先的這個原先它是根據IEPAR現在用122條款嘛那現在我們看到裡面的話你們在ART談判的時候你就已經有自動調降這個進口關稅到歸零所以什麼時候開始啟動你們不知道嗎"},{"start":15071.662,"end":15096.824,"text":"沒有 這個要立法院通過才可以通過 什麼時候通過 預估立法院 我們要送到立法院 立法院要通過才可以好 就是今年喔這個我們跟美國一樣要把這個ART裡面的內容確定以後那現在就是還在法律上還在調整因為在去年談的部分的話是因為一二條款出來的話 全部都"},{"start":15098.105,"end":15102.769,"text":"就是沒有這個效益的重新就是10加N了所以現在都是10加N啊所以就不用ART這個就沒有了我們不要有太樂觀的所以你們未來還是繼續談那個ART吧對對對"},{"start":15116.201,"end":15135.392,"text":"未來這個150天之後ART如果有更好的結果出來的話我們也要去努力的啦好不好那所以說如果說像這關稅歸零的情形我們要做準備本身在總諮詢的時候也特別有提到我們要保護我們的產業尤其是國產汽車進口的車子美系的車子進來"},{"start":15136.893,"end":15149.022,"text":"關稅是歸零喔 那進口車子的話 我們有沒有優勢的這個競爭力 這就要看我們經濟部來講那一天特別財政部部長就講說 有免徵一些 免徵什麼 兩項舊車換新車五萬 還有一項 這是五萬 也是五萬是什麼"},{"start":15157.513,"end":15183.68,"text":"太舊換新五萬 新車是五萬 兩個啊兩千CC以下兩千CC以下也是五萬所以一百萬的車子大概可以減十萬啦對不對那這樣子的話大概算起來就只有10%但是部長 我要提醒再提醒這不是只有對國產車美系車子竟然也是一樣耶所以那有什麼特別優勢的地方呢因為美系車子它單價都很高啦"},{"start":15184.44,"end":15211.686,"text":"不會在一百萬以下通常是兩百萬大部分是所以還免關稅了關稅17.5%免掉了即刻全部免耶只有美國車而已啦只有美國汽車美國製造的車子才會在美國製造在美國設廠就叫美國製造日系韓系德系的車子在美國設廠製造進來我們這邊就是免關稅了因為它是高單價所以你不要太過於樂觀喔所以在這邊本席具體的要求部長"},{"start":15212.546,"end":15219.732,"text":"跟財政部那邊共同討論有沒有什麼可以幫助國產車支持國產車能夠讓他們有競爭力那直接關稅17.5%就沒有囉那這個落差太大囉"},{"start":15229.289,"end":15243.309,"text":"這17.5%100萬的車子就將近20萬喔跟我們國產車的競爭力我們衝擊會非常大所以請你們要找出一個對策方案出來好不好好那接下來我們講到就是這個中東的情勢"},{"start":15244.832,"end":15261.433,"text":"國際的情勢因為尤其是這個二污之戰這麼久了我們所有我們的能源政策防能源的資源上我們都受到很大的衝擊所以物價也都一直高漲所以在此刻物價沒有現在還在百分之二以下"},{"start":15262.654,"end":15288.325,"text":"CPRCPR部長你知道現在的雞腿便當一個多少錢嗎?百分之二以下所以不死人間煙火了本期要在這邊提到的就是剛剛前面很多的委員都提到了大家擔心什麼?擔心未來我們的天然氣發電的中油它要承擔還有我們曾董事長也已經站出來台電台電跟中油要共同去吸收這個成本"},{"start":15289.46,"end":15301.893,"text":"但是我還要去請問一下我們所有的民眾最擔心的就是電價漲不漲電價會漲嗎電價還是有電價審議委員會我知道你要講電價審議委員會每次問到這就要問電價審議委員會可是台電跟正如的吸收成本的當下你知道台電現在還虧損多少嗎"},{"start":15312.073,"end":15320.56,"text":"我們給他增資之後 政府給他補貼之後他還虧損多少嗎 3500億吧你還虧損這麼多嗎 還是更多 你可以修正一下你現在虧損多少 2025年底3500億所以這個漲不漲電價 剛剛大家都關心了啦所以你給我明確說 不要說除了審議委員會之外"},{"start":15339.421,"end":15357.938,"text":"當然你講說不是全面漲當然啦 700度以下的民生用電不會漲嘛可是所有的產業都會影響啊尤其現在我們推廣這AI產業啦用電又非常高在這點不漲可以給我們什麼保證嗎民眾現在最關心的就是電價漲不漲啊"},{"start":15359.31,"end":15376.313,"text":"我可以把那個委員的意見跟想法轉達給這個電價審議委員會了解說有這樣的民意有這樣的訴求讓他們知道最重要本期是關心我們台電跟中油啊叫他們一直吸收成本"},{"start":15377.194,"end":15397.878,"text":"雖然說這次的油價漲1.8元台中油吸收多少你知道嗎我知道所以在這一點上我們給多盡量我們就台電跟珍無這部分我們還是給他們多一點協助是沈議員委員會這邊你也可以給他們一些建議民眾關心的電價漲不漲好不好好謝謝好謝謝呂雲委員謝謝接下來我們請陳清榮委員質詢"},{"start":15419.077,"end":15422.148,"text":"主席好 是不是可以請管部長請管部長好 謝謝"},{"start":15427.731,"end":15455.54,"text":"國務部長 午安 辛苦我們從我們經濟部的業務報告我們看到其中一個重點就是因應極端氣候穩定水資源的一個供應我們的目標包括開源 節流 調度 備源 管理等等我們也看到今年從2月到現在"},{"start":15457.861,"end":15468.947,"text":"這個極端的氣候降雨量不足尤其中南部尤其新竹以南嚴重的一個缺水那我們在這邊水當然由我們經濟部水利署在這邊在管理但是我們很明顯的已經看到而且我也感受到也接受到我們農民"},{"start":15482.714,"end":15488.256,"text":"的一個憂慮跟抗議我們經濟部為了搶這個水讓我們農民已經從事農業種植需要的灌溉用水全部被我們經濟部搶光了我們的重點只顧產業工業的用水民生的用水把農業農民最弱勢的這一塊"},{"start":15512.026,"end":15531.861,"text":"全部予以覆滅所以我在這邊呢要向我們經濟部我們要提出最強烈的抗議我代替代表農民來向我們經濟部抗議最後一個部分我在這裡要跟部長講"},{"start":15533.792,"end":15546.559,"text":"農民不是弱勢雖然他是弱勢但是水呀對他們來講農業的灌溉用水非常重要我舉一個例子我們大安溪的湖流水"},{"start":15548.237,"end":15570.912,"text":"本來就是提供農民的灌溉用水結果我們經濟部全部把他的忽悠水全部抽到鋁壹潭的給水場讓我們農民沒有水灌溉這樣的一個例子讓我們感受到經濟部的一個獨大這個部分是不是我請我們經濟部"},{"start":15573.274,"end":15595.538,"text":"跟農業部可以做一些協調部長你的看法怎麼樣部分一直都跟農業部有在協調啦齁但是農業表農業部我們想小一點你們想大一點因為農業部的農民都是弱勢你管的都是產業工業好像比較重要"},{"start":15596.178,"end":15618.225,"text":"不是 現在 比如說現在水情比較緊張的當然就是新竹啦台中也一樣啊你新竹有竹科要用水 台中一樣啊台中中科啊 也是你們的重點啊但是農業 農民就被犧牲啊沒有啦 他們報竹要報竹啊就是報竹要報竹啊 沒有水啊"},{"start":15621.126,"end":15632.053,"text":"他們要用水池期 我們來稍微調度一下這個調度啊 一定要跟農業部 農學署這邊好好溝通 而且還有補償補償不是唯一的辦法嗎這個補償比他種植還要好第一個我在這裡要求我們要幫農民要水經濟部這邊要跟農學署這邊 農業部這邊好好協調第二個第二個我要來請教部長"},{"start":15648.763,"end":15671.854,"text":"我們這個產化署 我們經濟部有跟勞動部去協調我們客庚工廠我們曾經勞動部協調好有6000名的義工就外勞 外籍的勞動力可以提供給我們客庚工廠來使用"},{"start":15672.654,"end":15698.814,"text":"那目前這6000名的一個外國的這個境外的這樣的勞動力目前6000名的使用情況怎麼樣請再回答報告委員那6000名的委員6000名的這個名額的部分我們分別在113年跟114年的公告的部分已經把名額用完了已經用完了那有沒有實際批用"},{"start":15700.015,"end":15714.283,"text":"所以現在關鍵的這個問題我們目前有在處理所以我們目前在處理的是回流的部分如果業者沒有使用的部分我們會把這個名額再把它滾回來再次來做一些公告現在的情況這6000名我從你們的資料來看現在取得車增工廠的廠家已經取得車增工廠等級整個合法有5600多家"},{"start":15726.05,"end":15747.452,"text":"你核定六千名等於一加不到一名我們了解這個名額本來就不夠然後還會有名額要流出就代表我們的景氣可能有一些影響但是目前業界本應給我的他們要申請還是沒有這樣的額度有沒有機會跟老總部增加名額"},{"start":15748.513,"end":15768.812,"text":"我們一起有沒有機會 我們來討論好不好 這一個部分產業真的需要我在這邊請經濟部 長髮署我們要幫我們這些特等工廠好不容易發展那麼多成本能夠完成合法的徵機在勞動力缺缺的部分我們全力來協調勞動部給他們補足 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":15774.617,"end":15794.876,"text":"謝謝這個陳清榮委員 包想這個經濟部再跟農業部協調這個特工議員那第二個就是那個經濟部跟農業部在農民用水的部分我再找個時間再安排去視察一下好了好不好再跟陳清榮中部地區的這個委員 好接下來我們謝謝 接下來我們請這個王煌維委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":15803.49,"end":15820.298,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請一下我們的拱部長我們請拱部長 謝謝怎麼沒有好 王委員好我想在此時此刻我相信經濟部是焦頭爛額"},{"start":15822.403,"end":15830.288,"text":"那大家關心包含我們的石油天然氣 最近就是經營部部長我有注意到說我們調度說5月份已經有這個有調度到這個相關的什麼天然氣跟"},{"start":15838.855,"end":15853.27,"text":"這個石油但是我想提醒部長因為現在全世界搶油搶天然氣快搶封了那現在甚至傳聞說有這個其他國家是帶著現金直接到海上去搶"},{"start":15854.451,"end":15882.087,"text":"去攔截當然啦我相信也有些是我們比如說過去有長期合約的問題長期合約它是供應穩定但是如果是臨時性的調度所以我覺得我們還是要非常非常的注意但是我想有限時間我要特別來問部長這個非常嚴重現在我們的油這漲幅比較少控制比較少的漲幅由中油吸收"},{"start":15882.947,"end":15905.334,"text":"電現在看起來暫時採取動漲雖然剛才也有委員來問 但現在看起來可能採取動漲瓦斯也採取動漲那因為我們剛開始關心的就是桶裝瓦斯的部分因為你天然氣上漲 桶裝瓦斯一定上漲 餐飲小吃一定受不了但是問題現在的問題不只是這些現在是連塑膠袋都在漲而且呢"},{"start":15913.577,"end":15916.899,"text":"還沒有塑膠袋好像因為現在已經陸陸續續包含市場因為市場他們用到塑膠袋還有呢麵包店很多麵包他要放到塑膠袋裡面他們這塑膠袋也在缺而且也在漲"},{"start":15929.308,"end":15932.772,"text":"現在連藥師 因為藥師有藥袋 藥袋也是塑膠袋他說也沒有 而且是一個禮拜漲一次 而且都是無預警漲價那不止這個塑膠袋之亂 現在已經有所謂的塑膠袋之亂因為第一個價格飛漲 或者是他還擔心掉不到貨"},{"start":15948.507,"end":15974.064,"text":"不只如此 現在還有一些建材 還有車用零件或者是說PV水管 塑膠水管 很多跟塑料相關的通通都在面臨可能缺料 可能漲價 甚至有人在預期下一步可能就是紙袋那我剛才講的這些 全部都是非常非常重要的民生用品"},{"start":15974.944,"end":15977.788,"text":"那昨天我也注意到院長接受這個備詢的時候講到上游不漲然後下游不要囤貨可是現在問題是"},{"start":15988.323,"end":15997.071,"text":"上游就已經在缺料了他不是漲不漲的問題下游根本沒得囤啊上游在缺料下游就沒得囤所以我們現在光是塑膠袋之亂我想這是反映一個整個的現在的這個塑化石化這個供應原料的不吉好那我想請問部長我們要怎麼因應有沒有可能"},{"start":16014.626,"end":16035.832,"text":"採取對於特定我剛才講的我們現在已經出現漲價還有甚至缺料甚至馬上嚴重缺料我們會未雨綢繆對於這些原料也好半成品也好製品也好我們可能會採取相關的措施譬如說暫時的管制不出口"},{"start":16037.012,"end":16047.86,"text":"全力的來供應國內的需求部長這個部分可不可以回答就是有關於現在在這些下游就是石化下游的這些產品開始這個所謂的塑膠代資亂"},{"start":16053.929,"end":16067.984,"text":"報委員我們的確方向是這樣但是我們不會用強勢性但是我們跟上游的這些原料公司都已經講好原則上先供給國內有多餘的情況之下才會出口這個已經講好了然後另外就是說"},{"start":16069.145,"end":16085.823,"text":"現在上游的部分 像中游來講的話基本上是原則上 它都會照原來的供應 供料都會只是你按照現在 現在供料而且你說 啊我們現在這個通通都沒有問題啊我們都調度了 可是現在就已經亂成一團了就是說"},{"start":16087.484,"end":16095.948,"text":"中盤商的部分或中油的部分他們可能擔心嘛擔心說我上油不會有料了那我所以多囤一點對不對或者是更下油的時候我怕買不到我本來買一包我可能多買一包那這樣的話就會造成這個市場上沒有 可是現在是齁因為實話的東西我沒有那麼懂可是呢他們講到上油的部分比如說方香清它現在就已經少了50%的產量了"},{"start":16115.017,"end":16132.579,"text":"所以他不是說中盤商很擔心本來應該只要買一包我現在買兩包來囤著買三包來囤著是上游的產量就已經出現他的產量就腰斬所以老實講我為什麼要特別提到就是"},{"start":16134.161,"end":16146.564,"text":"部長我覺得你剛講說沒有用強制性在某個程度在非常狀態現在已經進入非常狀態的時候可能要用非常手段"},{"start":16148.325,"end":16171.053,"text":"你只在用道德勸說我擔心的是國內的這些上游就已經沒有貨你說下游想要囤都不大容易囤啊最後就變成價格飛漲台灣上游就是幾家公司啦事實上他們也理解我們跟他做一些溝通他們也會往這個方向來進行好部長我今天所詢問的就是因為塑膠袋"},{"start":16172.373,"end":16198.626,"text":"塑膠袋太多民生用品要用到我剛講到其實只是部分而已一定要解決塑膠袋之亂我們會注意否則的話你剛還有好像還蠻老神在在的說我們現在CPI都控制在2%以下我跟你講這個一旦這個有漲價而且預期心理一上來其實對於CPI對於消費物價影響至巨 好不好了解了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":16199.767,"end":16214.435,"text":"好謝謝王宏威委員這個我想因為很多的委員都提到塑膠袋不管是蔡宇宇委員然後這個王宏威委員那昨天講昨天也是在這樣說所以我覺得你們可能要從原物料"},{"start":16215.516,"end":16232.192,"text":"這邊限制就是是不是就是國內這樣子來使用那如果不夠的話怎麼去調這些的原物料那另外可能也要聯合這些公平或是這個物價調查去查一下有沒有這樣囤貨的行為那如果可以的話就是儘快交一個書面報告給我們好不好我給你10秒好不好"},{"start":16240.711,"end":16266.865,"text":"對 的確我們調查清楚如果真的有缺的話因為塑膠袋是比較容易生產的那我們會協調廠商盡快的趕快來生產它的技術上是相對來講是沒有那麼很高的技術啦對廠商來講它可以增加我們來盡量調度好 謝謝接下來我們請邱惠璐委員質詢"},{"start":16279.735,"end":16301.132,"text":"好有請拱部長有請台電曾文森董事長好有請部長跟曾董事長好是拱部長還有曾董事長兩位好那我今天呢特地跑來經濟委員會是想跟兩位請教我們國家關於能源政策的問題那我想我們的政府"},{"start":16301.752,"end":16322.35,"text":"一直過去就民主進步黨政府過去一直崇尚所謂的非核家園但是呢這兩天我們看到好像出現了髮夾彎就是出現了一個永核家園的態度就是要重啟核二跟核三那我想請教為什麼政策會如此出現這樣的批辯其中的貓膩是什麼原因"},{"start":16324.636,"end":16343.318,"text":"我想行政部門是依法行政過去來講的話這個核安法的規定所有的運轉機具是到了40年它就不能再運轉這是核管法的規定到了去年的時候核管法才做了一些修正它容許可以"},{"start":16345.079,"end":16372.314,"text":"40年之後還可以有再運轉但是要保證有他的安全檢查等等所以中間完全沒有貓膩嗎那如果真的是這些機器真的是有問題你們覺得沒有運行的可能性那為什麼現在又要再重啟如果這些機器的安全性不是去年要停役的時候一直大聲嚷嚷機組老舊不堪負荷安全性有問題難道現在要重啟就沒有安全性的問題嗎"},{"start":16373.354,"end":16401.795,"text":"所以要自主安全檢查自主安全檢查沒有錯那你們自主安全檢查你們所要花費的時間多久你們一下子關又一下子開中間會浪費多少行政成本時間成本經歷成本以前是法律不允許我們不能違法當然知道不能夠違法所以一定要現在你們的意思就是說你們的這個法律比你們的這個民主進步黨的非核家園的神主牌還厲害就是了行政部門當然要依法行政"},{"start":16402.415,"end":16417.921,"text":"行政院要依法行政沒有問題這當然是那如果行政院要依法行政為什麼依法編列的這個三讀通過的才化法不執行不附屬不公佈講的好像很冠冕堂皇法律最至高無上那請問一下為什麼三讀通過的這個才化法不"},{"start":16421.462,"end":16442.557,"text":"依法的來執行不依法的來公佈呢那為什麼軍人加薪的條例為什麼到現在還是躺在那邊睡覺還有軍警的這個所得替代率我們當然知道依法行政很重要但是過去我們在河山演義這件事就是沒有看到你們在依法行政那我現在請問一件事到底台灣有沒有缺電"},{"start":16443.922,"end":16468.482,"text":"目前來講沒有缺電沒有缺電那為什麼你們要重啟核三為什麼要重啟核二依法行政嘛現在法律授權給我們可以重啟的機會我們當然要自主安全檢查法律這個東西都是讓你們這樣子自己在解讀的對你們有好處的就是依法行政對你們沒有好處的就是不公佈不附屬不執行好那我先請問一件事你說台灣到2032年供電沒有問題那請問一下過了2033年呢"},{"start":16472.525,"end":16499.743,"text":"請問供電有沒有問題我們會滾動檢討 每一年都會滾動檢討 滾動檢討現在推估到2032年如果往後推估我們會對外公佈可是你們賴慶德昨天不是已經出來說我們台灣就是有缺電嗎所以你的意思就是完全沒缺電那完全沒有缺電很好 我們完全樂觀其成那不要到七八月沒電的時候又叫那些小動物啊什麼小松鼠啊出來背鍋好嗎坊間已經在笑說我們台電不是台電公司是叫做台電公司 電的供應跟電網韌性這是兩回事"},{"start":16502.946,"end":16524.083,"text":"對 你們號稱是電網任性但是人民都在懷疑我們國家就是一個缺電的國家你們有自己一套冠冕堂皇的說辭啊但是人民的感受不是這樣啊煤電的T恤都已經做出來了啊就是台電那個LOGO變成煤電啊所以你們就是讓人民沒有辦法信賴那現在問一下就是到底現在核三跟核二要重啟時間表是什麼時候"},{"start":16524.764,"end":16541.33,"text":"我們現在是自主安全檢查啊多久嗎我就問你時間嗎你一直在跟我講你們做這件事做這件事做件事這就沒有回答到時間啊就沒有辦法給你時間你今天早上回答別人是1.5到2年問到我就沒有時間你會不會太大小眼了啊那我的回答就是18個月跟兩年"},{"start":16541.81,"end":16557.508,"text":"對啊那你剛剛就直接回答18個月到兩年為什麼跟我講沒有時間表你這樣子是不是這樣子看誰在回答啊不是因為您您的問題好像是哪一天沒有人在跟你講具體哪一天誰會跟你講西元2030年12月31號你不要誤解我的問題齁好那現在請問一件事"},{"start":16562.413,"end":16590.042,"text":"1.5到2年是你們的時間 何安會那邊要多久時間那可能要問何安會 可能要問他們那我就覺得你們的資訊非常的零散要不要建議你回去跟部長建立一個平台把資訊整理好再來回應給大家不要東講一句西講一句讓資訊的零碎化人民也不好瞭解啊那請問一下現在中東發生戰爭讓我們能源有沒有短缺的問題目前沒有沒有啊沒有是部件能源部件到什麼時候"},{"start":16591.771,"end":16609.525,"text":"天然氣的部分現在都有滿足11天的儲備量未來呢現在我們至少到五月底掉貨都掉到了五月底掉貨那過了六月七月八月你們就是要繼續努力了不會讓這個天然氣突然嘎然而止就沒有了然後台灣就陷入缺電的危機"},{"start":16611.267,"end":16624.983,"text":"這個夏天已經快到了啊你不能夠說到時候沒電然後又騙我們說是跳電然後沒電又騙我們說是停電這個台電的那個T恤沒電的T恤都已經出來了你們難道沒有看到人民這樣的心聲嗎小老鼠也被騙了很久"},{"start":16629.368,"end":16654.35,"text":"再給我10秒鐘的時間可不可以台電在一個月提出重啟的白皮書就是重啟核電的時程、風險還有核廢料存放的地方還有這些缺電的缺口要如何比救、比照、補救還有各自的能源的配比請問一下部長這邊是不是能夠給我一個回覆一個月那委員會決定我剛有要求他那我是三個月你是一個月"},{"start":16655.031,"end":16680.904,"text":"他不是已經說一個月了你就回答我一個月就好啦我們又不需要召委來做召委三個月了我們還是要不是你要回答我不是他在質詢你你到底有沒有把我當成一個立法委員你要回答我你回答他幹嘛你回答他三個月我現在問你一個月啊他是召委他不是召委我才是問你的主體請注意住好謝謝我才是好不好一三折中兩個月可以齁謝謝"},{"start":16685.438,"end":16699.026,"text":"好 接下來我們請侯孟愷委員質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請部長麻煩請部長 謝謝"},{"start":16707.535,"end":16724.39,"text":"部長好 一整天大家關心的經濟議題非常多 但是本席先來就教一下關稅的議題我在一個月前左右我們就已經有專案報告的時候就已經問到現在還沒有生效 主要是還要再送到國會對不對那什麼時候送到國會"},{"start":16725.709,"end":16750.88,"text":"因為美國法律上的安排要重新安排等到安排好以後 ART不就之前我們已經簽了嘛那我們那個時候不就講到是說到目前為止其實國人也好立法委員也都還沒有看到我們行政院就我們中華民國政府跟美國政府簽訂的合約的一個內容嘛也因此說到底什麼時候完整的條文能夠送進國外 ART好像有對外公布了是不是"},{"start":16751.3,"end":16778.716,"text":"你還沒有全文就是說你什麼時候要送到國會來讓我們通過啊?不是嗎?據我了解好像已經有對外說明部長如果說你要那麼的對在行政院的網站上好像已經有對外完整的公布部長那你要送到立法院什麼時候?因為部長一個月前在專案報告如果說你連這個議題都我是不是事情太多所以你也搞混了不是一個月前的時候我們是不是講那個時候還講是說因為"},{"start":16781.119,"end":16808.038,"text":"現在有出來美國現在用122條款所以說他現在是全世界都10%但是川普雖然有講是說他可能調15%但到目前為止調了嗎?還沒有也因此122條款只能用150天如果說150天到了也要再通過美國國會再同意再繼續延長也因此全世界大家也都在觀望有一些國家已經先喊了那乾脆我就等122他後續怎麼樣再做譬如說馬來西亞"},{"start":16809.059,"end":16827.951,"text":"但也有一些國家 譬如說我們中華民國我們的行政院也講是說先不要 因為即便122這樣很冗長122有150天 可是我們之前談的ART非常好 很棒所以有韓瓜232那我們趕快簽 簽下來之後我們比較有保障這是行政院給我們的講法嘛"},{"start":16829.434,"end":16853.779,"text":"那我們現在是不是當時我也有具體的要求說那我們是不是利用這一段時間因為還要再跟美國繼續溝通的過程我們也要試圖嘗試把301也納入ART的保障這是現在大家所國人所關心的嘛你如果說你要簽就簽一個對我國最有利的也因此232已經有含瓜在ART的精神裡面但是301沒有"},{"start":16855.279,"end":16882.955,"text":"那大家不知道說現在未來301之後美國會不會我們簽了ART之後301出來之後再跟我們課一次稅也因此我們才會講是說你現在應該要確認你最終的版本送進國會審查之前讓我們知道那現在總是時間上來講如果說依照你現在來說150天你不想等那我想請教的是我們這段時間的努力以及什麼時候會送最終版本進來"},{"start":16884.389,"end":16907.524,"text":"報告委員因為這樣他原來的這個ART他的法源依據是來自於IPA就是美國的部分那這個IPA的部分是被最高法院說他已經超越了總統的權利所以他用暫時性的122來當作這個所以我們那個時候也才講是說你有沒有需要那麼急的簽ART或者是說"},{"start":16908.525,"end":16927.412,"text":"我們能不能重啟談判但是一個月前的專案報告行政院展地結局講說不要重啟談判因為現在談到ART是對我們最有利的這是你們的說法所以我們要保障的就是談好的結果不要改變法源依據可以改變但是結果不要改變就是確保我們ART的這個談好的這樣的一個成果"},{"start":16930.993,"end":16941.496,"text":"但是請容許本席提醒即便是現在ART其實比美國現在所珍貴全世界各國的122條款所使用的其實都還高啊"},{"start":16942.469,"end":16970.701,"text":"我們條件都還是相對嚴苛啊不一樣他等到後面的時候因為我們的稅至少稅就是10%跟15%的差別5%的差別啊對但是對啊就美國的規劃來講所以有沒有可能現在我們有一些世界各國已經講了就是要等一二二後續的一個處理嘛所以他不急著簽約啊所以美國那我們現在到底急不急所以美國他就是用301的方式重建他的這個法源依據啦是啊所以本學現在才提"},{"start":16971.937,"end":16993.579,"text":"部長所以我不知道說過去這個月我們談判小組的努力或是說你接受到的資訊本席現在還提的是說那我們既然你剛講了是要用美國現在要用301來當作是後續的籌碼那我們這個ART有沒有把301也包括在裡面我們後續會跟美國談就是說談定了就不要再改不要用301加進來等等的一些情況"},{"start":16994.059,"end":17022.537,"text":"就保障這個結果是 這個就是我們之後要送進立法院的時候我們要看到你的這樣的一個承諾跟美國談到的好 所以部長 就本席理解喔這是鄭麗君都還沒有講過的話喔你剛剛講這段話是鄭麗君還沒有講過的話因為當時專案報告我一直要求的是301要納入 鄭麗君不敢正面回覆鄭麗君一直講說ART有談到232但沒有把301 但是"},{"start":17023.197,"end":17047.866,"text":"本席肯定你剛剛講話是因為這才是我們要看到的就是說我們不能未來如果說要簽ART不能未來再變成一隻牛扒兩層皮不能我們簽了ART之後美國再拿301再來要求我們額外的關稅你可以認同這樣的方向嗎對 我們認同 我們來努力好 所以什麼時候會送進來我們要來審查的時候他們這個法源"},{"start":17049.622,"end":17072.327,"text":"法源的重建還沒有重建完那個是美國他的法源的重建我們要讓他不會等到122消失了然後301不知道什麼時候生效然後我們就都還沒有辦法送進來或是說什麼時候可以送進來我相信美國他會有他的這個時間上的安排來那個抱歉主席再一分鐘啦部長"},{"start":17073.612,"end":17092.334,"text":"本席過去尊重你相關的一些專業我們也在秘書長任內的時候也有溝通過但如果說一直要扭曲或說刻意跟著青鳥側翼帶風向本席也不樂見你一直講說行政部門依法行政但是去年所通過的核管法我們的條文是怎麼講"},{"start":17093.786,"end":17110.095,"text":"你今天的專案報告裡面其實也有寫到經營者得向主管機關申請他是得不是因也因此並不是立法院去年修過核管法之後行政部門就一定要做"},{"start":17110.675,"end":17127.87,"text":"因為他是得不是因而今天是經濟部看到立法院修法完成之後台電主動向經濟部求書申請經濟部也認同所以說才去做重啟的一個評估或說重啟的一個安全調查所以不管怎麼樣"},{"start":17129.171,"end":17147.417,"text":"執政要有肩膀你們做錯決議自己要打臉過去十年不管青鳥側翼在網路上或是賴清德總統以前擔任台南市長的時候怎麼樣講我是人我反核自己要打臉自己承擔但不用把什麼事情都依據依法行政條文怎麼規定"},{"start":17148.817,"end":17169.287,"text":"得向主管機關申請不是贏這一點說明清楚好不好 謝謝好 謝謝黃孟愷委員 謝謝我想那個關稅的問題很重要我們再來排個專案報告因為這個完全搞不清楚我也有問題要問的只是今天大家都在核電好 那接下來我們請這個吳思瑤委員質詢"},{"start":17176.706,"end":17181.339,"text":"謝謝主席有請工部長也請開店的曾董事長有請工部長跟曾董事長"},{"start":17185.874,"end":17213.362,"text":"好 兩位因為外圍只有四分鐘 真的很急執政當然要有肩膀但是再也絕對不要包牌核管法誰修的立法院修的誰是國會多數藍白是國會多數當初核管法的文字不管是德或是英行政部門依法行政怎麼會現在通過這個法案的國民黨的委員反過來你們做也罵"},{"start":17214.202,"end":17230.671,"text":"不做也罵我覺得這種包牌不太好啦今天我們進入我想要垂尋的主題就是二次能源轉型是現在的進行式我們追求的是能源的多元化而核電只是其一"},{"start":17231.96,"end":17260.522,"text":"核电不是唯一而核电还包括SMR新式核电新式技术的研发应用还有才回到过去厨艺的核电厂有没有可能再重启再安全这一关过不过得了所以我希望大家聚焦能源多元化才是王道如果只看到核电这一项只独压核电这一项这不是我们的政策"},{"start":17261.579,"end":17277.364,"text":"现在进行是下一页非核家园上路312天到今天到今天为止我们的每日备转的容量是还维持在超过10所以非核家园上路现在有缺电吗"},{"start":17279.363,"end":17302.399,"text":"沒有是這是事實所以非核家園也已經上路了也是依據立法院相關的政策朝野的溝通所以呢非核家園的上路312天現在已經非核了312天沒有缺點我們的政策沒有跳票也不要去操作政策在轉彎這件事我們看下一頁"},{"start":17303.42,"end":17321.686,"text":"作為負責任的執政黨,能源就是國力,國際的能源挑戰是日益加劇,no one is outsider,世界各國都在因應,包括台灣,因應地緣政治、中東戰事或俄武戰爭,所以地緣政治衝擊了能源安全。"},{"start":17322.523,"end":17326.326,"text":"因應淨零排放要求所有的企業要用綠電我們不能影響台灣企業的國際競爭力也為了追求AI時代台灣成為AI大國的這個用電的需求量No one is outsider負責任的執政黨要因應要準備我們要準備什麼呢就是右手邊的二次能源轉型"},{"start":17345.482,"end":17364.688,"text":"幾件事第一建置儲能設施我們要做第二優化電網韌性我們加倍做第三提升綠能發電我們全力拼第四佈局能源的多元化就我一直在說的能源是要多元化不是獨壓核電不是只看到核電"},{"start":17367.909,"end":17396.563,"text":"這幾件事情是不是我們這幾年努力在做而過去國民黨沒有做我們努力努力趕上進度我一直要強調不要只看到核電核電只是能源多元化的其一不是唯一那個曾董事長今天時間非常有限但您可不可以很簡短的告訴我們這幾項事情你自己評估我們是不是都照步驟加碼努力跟時間賽跑在做"},{"start":17397.97,"end":17418.518,"text":"我跟委員跟委員報告本來我們預計是2025年儲能到1GB但現在我們已經有2GB是進步了加碼那優化電網韌性這個從2022年開始執行事實上我們陸陸續續都在推動很可惜立法院刪除了電網韌性的預算我們希望能夠儘快有資源可以做對"},{"start":17419.358,"end":17440.013,"text":"那提升綠能發電跟委員報告2025年當然就是我們還沒達到20%但是已經發到380億度是達20%的目標努力也比四個核電機組的發電量大好第四項我們看下一頁能源多元化就是現在的政策進行式能源多元化有這麼多"},{"start":17441.794,"end":17456.245,"text":"風力 生殖能 太陽光電 水力 小水力 地熱 海洋溫差潮汐能 波浪能 海流能每一項都在研發 都在應用 都在進行核電不管是新式核能的應用 或是重啟核電的選項不過是這麼多理念我們都要努力該可以去爭取綠能發電的我們絕對不放棄這是我要論述的主題 下一頁"},{"start":17468.385,"end":17474.889,"text":"下一頁我要請您澄清一下今天的整個報告不管是書面或者是剛剛您的口頭文的報告您都說了重啟核電其實是還要過恩關斬恩將還要漫漫長路八字沒一撇"},{"start":17486.497,"end":17505.14,"text":"您說了一個一年半到兩年的時間點不管是書面報告或您今天的口頭包括這個報導內容都寫得很清楚 廣明星部長在回答立委質詢的時候的說法是台電依法送出來的自主安全檢查至少還要一年半以上"},{"start":17506.121,"end":17522.613,"text":"後面還要交給核安會去審查 審到哪一天能不能過關都不知道這篇報導的內容也是這樣寫的 部長您看一看可是呢 居然就有title標題就下標說經濟部長說核電研議最快一年半這實在是斷章取義啊您趕快澄清一下吧"},{"start":17530.779,"end":17547.599,"text":"自主安全檢查是是現在的第一關自主安全審查至少要一年半還要送核安會不知道要審多久不知道安全能不能過關這請把專業的事情交給專業最後一頁最後一頁所以好"},{"start":17549.751,"end":17569.996,"text":"請把核能、能源的專業交給專業不要讓政治凌駕專業也不要去扭曲的解讀台電現階段提出來的核三再運轉計畫只是後續安全審查的第一關It's just the beginning, not ending不是終局"},{"start":17571.056,"end":17576.418,"text":"除以後老化的條件能不能夠符合再運轉的條件能不能夠符合再運轉的成本還有很重要的位於斷層帶的地震危害分析到底能不能過得了這一關我呼籲大家讓專業來說話專業的是回歸專業不要用政治來凌駕專業我們更不樂見這種斷章取義這一言半指的是"},{"start":17598.028,"end":17615.293,"text":"經濟部跟台電在做一個說明好不好對不起他不是跟台電做說明不是經濟部跟台電共同對話說明那剛剛有委員還說那部長你也要把核安會的東西一起講清楚拜託要搞清楚球員跟裁判是不能混為一談的你只負責經濟部跟台電送出來的戰預轉計畫跟自主安全審查"},{"start":17620.755,"end":17644.499,"text":"後續審查請尊重核安會有些立委搞不清楚要求經濟部你去跟核安會講要審怎樣要如何怎樣球員不能兼裁裁判我們依法行政安全絕對不能打折我們大家不要這麼的躁勁核電不是唯一只是其一好嗎我們大家往能源多元化我相信主席也非常的支持謝謝"},{"start":17651.36,"end":17671.971,"text":"好 接下來我們請這個李坤成委員質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請部長 工部長 台電我們的曾董事長我們請部長跟董事長"},{"start":17677.064,"end":17696.316,"text":"來 部長好 幾個小常識第一個 跳電不是缺電嘛 對不對跳電可以修完啊 修完電就來啦所以跳電不是缺電嘛這為什麼還會有人把這個跳電跟缺電把它搞在一起然後在一直在這個公共場合一直講這兩件事情不一樣跳電之後電來了 不一定有缺電啦為什麼要把跳電跟缺電一起講現在還有這一種故意要在這邊亂講的第二個"},{"start":17706.294,"end":17725.553,"text":"就算現在這個台電開始這個核二廠核三廠的這個自主安全檢查那也是你說這個自主安全檢查至少要一年半到兩年的時間嗎我請教一下這是指核二還是核三核三廠嗎那核二廠是花更久的時間"},{"start":17731.323,"end":17751.261,"text":"因為核二廠他的燃料棒還在這個爐心裡面可是要移出來以後才有辦法我等一下就講這一點所以呢就算現在要核電廠的因為核管法通過了那你們去做個自主安全檢查看他能不能未來來做運轉你們現在是評估說核二核三還有機會但是也不確定"},{"start":17752.142,"end":17772.151,"text":"未來是不是能夠真的運轉 因為最後還是有河岸未來做把關嘛 對不對那所以呢 不是說現在缺電 我現在趕快要核二核三重啟這也是兩件事情啊第一個 我相信你2032年之前台灣不會缺電第二個 就算有缺電 你現在重啟核二核三根本跟缺電的事情是兩件事情啊"},{"start":17773.59,"end":17789.861,"text":"對不對所以外界很多人把這兩件事情混在一起尤其現在第二件事情就是說台灣要缺電了那所以現在要重啟這個核電沒有啊就是重啟核電N年之後的事情當然是2加N年之後的事情對不對"},{"start":17791.36,"end":17804.618,"text":"是不是是好那請教一下部長我剛提到說核二因為核二在新北嘛那核二為什麼現在你剛有提到說為什麼他的自主的這個安全的這個檢查現在沒辦法做因為"},{"start":17807.951,"end":17834.363,"text":"當初啊他那個燃料池放進去那個用過的燃料棒已經滿了啊因為原來要蓋那個蓋那個乾式儲存的新北當時新北一直打一直打那現在這個乾式儲存廠已經開也是動工了對不對這個預計何時會完成我們現在硬體的部分已經初步完成最重要是"},{"start":17835.553,"end":17859.523,"text":"我們是連乾式儲存都要得到核安會的執照所以我們現在在做冷測試接下來做熱測試全部都測試完成核安會給我們執照我們就開始快速的把燃料棒退出好 所以硬體是完成了是硬體已經做好了乾式的室外乾式儲存的硬體做了好 那我們現在才在開始進行冷測試好 那你這些測試"},{"start":17860.987,"end":17881.446,"text":"那要經過多久時間才能確定說這個是安全的甘氏屬性交叉是安全的我跟委員報告因為當然這個跟基礎運轉的危害程度不太一樣這相對低一些但是我們還是要和安會審查通過那你有預估大概多久的時間嗎"},{"start":17883.301,"end":17907.401,"text":"我們只要是核安會的審查時程到現在他不會清楚告訴台電說他要審多久但我應該要這樣講就是台電在我們這些設備要符合規格然後符合安全以及他在冷測室熱測室上面我們的所有的操作要順利這一個事情是台電的責任這個我們會來做我知道那所以"},{"start":17908.667,"end":17934.536,"text":"還會通過之後 染料棒才能拿出來是那所以也不知道要多久時間嘛要 要 最少我覺得要今年要完成可能沒有辦法做到對啊 那核二也是至少要等到染料棒先拿出來之後才能去做這個自走安全的檢查嘛 對不對好 那另外一個問題又出來了那請問一下核廢料就放在那裡嗎核廢料就放在幹事署存償那裡嗎"},{"start":17936.298,"end":17953.909,"text":"這又是另外一個問題嗎目前是這樣因為乾式儲存是相對安全的儲存方式但是我們最終處置的那個部分也開始啟動那個是一併再走這個只能算是中間的中期先放在萬里那邊"},{"start":17954.89,"end":17965.937,"text":"對不對 不是最終放在那邊最終放在那邊一定反對的啊 我們一定反對的啊條件完全不一樣因為你們高中階的核廢料要怎麼去做處理現在有辦法了嗎國際上有辦法 但台灣要選址選址是最大的問題嘛 要放哪裡有人說可以放他家那開玩笑 怎麼可能去放他家"},{"start":17980.947,"end":18008.216,"text":"核廢料要放哪裡是一個最重要的一個問題那選址是選址那對啊所以我就說要重啟核電啊社會共識是一個問題第一個核安第二個核廢料困難重重啊困難重重啊當然我們現在是因應核管法的這個修法先做這個自主安全檢查但是未來真的你說要到重啟核二核三"},{"start":18009.349,"end":18027.663,"text":"我認為是一條漫漫長路所以這個跟目前Not ending 我再繼續講快結束了 再給我一分鐘所以呢 最後沒有啦 剛剛洪孟愷講了一分鐘啊我只跟他平等待遇而已那所以 不是說因為現在缺電"},{"start":18029.352,"end":18049.262,"text":"所以我們才重啟核二核三嘛對不對對兩件事情嘛好那最後問一下那個目前中油吸收了我們這個油價嘛對不對那不過這個禮拜還是動不動了嘛還是有小漲那下禮拜看的情況咧動態調整動不動了動不動了"},{"start":18062.723,"end":18082.661,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們就跟著油價的機制去走雅林最低價之後專案的平穩措施那目前這一週的整個油價的資訊還不完整所以現在也沒辦法跟委員做比較精確的報告那所以呢基本上當然可以動也要稍微動一下"},{"start":18085.269,"end":18102.164,"text":"原則上我們都會雅林最低價之後我們會吸收60%以上像上個禮拜就是好因為這個問題前面我也問過你們再一併回覆委員好不好好謝謝主席謝謝好接下來我們請許副管委員質詢"},{"start":18112.515,"end":18113.058,"text":"謝主席 也請我們龔部長謝謝"},{"start":18122.7,"end":18143.349,"text":"部長辛苦部長我想歐洲最近提出了2040年要減碳90%的一個目標這個不是只有環保議題而且也是這個全球高科技供應鏈的一個門檻那台灣作為一個出國導向的一個經濟體如果跟不上這個標準有可能未來產品連市場都進不去那部長有掌握這個狀況嗎"},{"start":18144.582,"end":18168.276,"text":"我知道 所以他們CBAN已經開始這個實施了就是所有的進口到歐洲的部分都要如果沒有濾電的話是要課這個CBAN就是課所以濾電是很重要的一個環節是好 部長那根據我們目前調研到的資料台灣的今年1月份的這個能源的結構變化核能已經歸零"},{"start":18169.136,"end":18192.618,"text":"那相關的這些再生能源的部分我想都持續有在精進但是我想我還是要提醒部長有三件事情第一個國際探險的機制已經在成型台灣企業不能單打獨鬥第二個台灣綠能政策長期的不明確包含農電、漁電、離岸風電、地熱這些東西很多都被卡關"},{"start":18193.539,"end":18203.255,"text":"我想剛剛聽到部長在回覆這個你們都嘗試要做很多的努力我想這個不能嘗試啦我們一定要有明確的一個能源政策不准認同嗎認同"},{"start":18205.582,"end":18225.61,"text":"我們有明確的這個政策在做推動但是對於這些綠能政策包含農電、漁電還有相關的部分有跟農業部相關的部分有做進一步的討論嗎有有有那現在也謝謝行政院幫我們跨部會在協調當中目前進度是怎麼樣有定出明確的一些規範嗎"},{"start":18227.617,"end":18242.704,"text":"對就是說因為上次的這個光電三法這個推動以後的確造成了一些開發商他們的疑慮那我們盡量跟農業部門做協商然後來處理這些不必要的疑慮把它去除掉"},{"start":18243.88,"end":18268.432,"text":"部長 我想是這樣子 當然就是說因為過去有一些縣市地方發生一些的狀況所以造成我們公務人員的這個壓力還有對於這些審查的一個機制的趨嚴我想我們贊成針對不法我們要嚴辦那對合法申請的業者應該要努力輔導他們合法要靠電廠用啦 不能所有都這樣卡住的 那是不對的啦"},{"start":18271.013,"end":18272.497,"text":"好 所以要怎麼去輔導這個業者部長什麼看法"},{"start":18274.574,"end":18297.889,"text":"是 所以我剛才提到的就是有一些不必要的履歷做一些釐清嘛而且現在我們很多的標案基本上都有一個廉政的平台請法務單位 廉政單位可以一起參與我支持阿部長 但是因為你們現在你們跟農業部這些部位大家沒有一個更高階的一個平台的運作各自為政怎麼辦"},{"start":18301.792,"end":18311.325,"text":"因為我們現在跟農業部是有雙次長的會議固定的時間那在上面是有行政院的政務委員來幫我們溝通協調或秘書長幫我們溝通協調"},{"start":18314.921,"end":18341.645,"text":"希望能夠加快來推動我們多元能源的一個部分那陳榮剛吳司藥委員講的這個核能是我們多元能源的一環而已不是必要所以這個剛剛提到的核二核三廠的重啟大家不要把台灣的電力問題都期待在核三重啟之後就會解決部長這對我們鄉村很不公平是是是了解所以一樣"},{"start":18342.225,"end":18363.273,"text":"我們過去這個不管是賴總統也好還有我想部長也提過這個核安、核能安全還有社會共識跟核廢料的處理才是我們未來要面對的一個方向部長還是認同這個方向嗎?對,因為我們三原則就是這三個部分核安、核廢跟共識好,那我想曾董事長也在嗎?"},{"start":18365.214,"end":18383.369,"text":"目前這樣進度下去,我想你們都不要預設立場什麼時候應該還有什麼樣的結果我們交給專業,是不是應該這樣做?是的好,那我再問一個更嚴重的問題因為核三廠鎖在地,很多鄉親擔心會不會以後就是變成核廢料的儲存廠?"},{"start":18384.795,"end":18404.104,"text":"那個最終儲存廠那個地方,就我們現在所有核電廠的廠只要做最終儲存廠,依照目前的規範都不符合規範,要另外找所以屏東沒有這個血漿的考量?他不會是最終儲存廠好,那主席再給我一分鐘,不好意思,那個部長"},{"start":18405.311,"end":18417.905,"text":"我想這個屏東縣的自來水普及率也是每次委員會我都會提到的問題我們還是全國普及率最低的一個縣市那目前大概平均的普及率73%"},{"start":18419.83,"end":18438.182,"text":"那我想那個李董事長我們也很努力但是依目前我們現有的能量要追上我們其他的縣市真的是很遙遠的一條路部長能不能加快速度讓我們的鄉親一樣有納稅一樣要享受一樣自來水普及的一個權利"},{"start":18440.562,"end":18464.411,"text":"報告委員我們目前在這個無自來水改善所有經費裡面大概有四成投入在屏東因為過去欠完而已 不能這樣省了所以現在加快力度都最大量一年才要開百億幾十億在那全力努力我們會一起來努力 趕快把這個改善來部長跟署長拜託一下把屏東的自來水普及率列一個專案改善計畫好不好"},{"start":18465.769,"end":18484.736,"text":"優先來處理好不好好第二個屏東縣今年的因為財政收支發放法總預算的關係減40幾億所以包含未來這個嚴管的補助應該要再強化一下好不好好謝謝謝謝委員接下來謝謝這個部長跟董事長接下來我們請黃建豪委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":18493.51,"end":18495.698,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們一樣請經濟部鞏部長經濟部鞏部長"},{"start":18503.374,"end":18527.021,"text":"方偉好部長好時間有限我們就把握時間這個之前在總之巡社跟部長提到過當然因為台美關稅的問題未來我們預計說在美國的美國車的這個零件進口也零關稅那當時在大會上面我也跟部長討論過我想知道這個進度有沒有更新就是說我們提出個建議我們也會提出相關的修法我們希望說除了美國車的零件進口零關稅之外"},{"start":18527.761,"end":18542.792,"text":"其他國家來自其他國家的來源的這個汽車零組件進口是不是也可以零關稅因為這個之前台灣區汽車公會有來也有來陳情嘛他們的車子他不一定都是用美國零件啊他可能從其他國家進口啊那美國零件從17.5%降到零那其他國家如果一樣維持原有關稅的話對於台灣這些所謂國產車這個組裝業者他會很大很大的衝擊嘛"},{"start":18550.798,"end":18564.073,"text":"所以當時部長也回我說大家以後可以多叫美國車的零件美國的零件我想這個競爭也不公平所以要問說經濟部立場願不願意去支持說未來從其他國家去進口的汽車零組件也能夠往零關稅的方向來邁進"},{"start":18566.103,"end":18586.658,"text":"我們之前就提案過了提案過然後送到大院那大院當時後來沒有沒有通過了那但是你的當時是什麼時候應該是幾年前吧是不是因為那時候沒有那時候沒有台北關稅啊現在是有這個問題之前那時候是希望當時的這些車輛可以"},{"start":18588.779,"end":18604.157,"text":"分享給這個價格上分享給消費者但是後來就沒有共識但是我想這也是一個契機如果有這樣的提案的話我們也願意來跟財政部表達這樣的一個提案"},{"start":18604.637,"end":18629.289,"text":"好部長謝謝我想這個汽車價格整車出來多少錢這是市場機制啦但是我相信喔你把這個零組件降低之後代價成本降低包含美國車它如果整車進來也是這個價錢比過去低的話這個市場會有波動會有變動嘛所以我們還說這個降了以後希望可以回饋給消費者希望這樣子好部長OK那接下來討論一個也是大家非常關心的河山"},{"start":18630.129,"end":18652.269,"text":"重啟了這議題當然這先源自於我們修了核管法第六條之後最近開始討論但是我們要講一件很嚴肅的問題是說人才的問題就是現在已經清大已經沒有核工系了大概早期認知的清大核工系現在也不存在它改名要工程這個工程與系統科技的這個系鎖了那這些裡面的學生畢業之後包含清大交當這些學生畢業以後"},{"start":18652.609,"end":18670.265,"text":"他很大一部分人才他可能都流向這科技業那我們現在在那裡評估說要做所謂的河山重啟或是河後端的工作等等的我們的大學端我們的人才培育庫人越來越少甚至人才產生斷層這件事情經濟部要怎麼去處理這個人才不夠的問題我們工程師我們的專業人才都不見了怎麼辦"},{"start":18672.093,"end":18697.849,"text":"因為就經濟部來講的話就是財政公司他會把所有的這些核子工程的這些人才都keep住在這邊完全沒有讓他們離開那甚至於將來還會再增加那我們當然也知道這個叫做國研會國研院事實上也有很多的這些研究專家在那邊共同的這個議題還是存在的"},{"start":18700.05,"end":18717.119,"text":"還是這個問題是這樣因為你的薪資就是說其實講白了就是薪資待遇的問題還有整個產業發展因為如果這些剛提到這些人才過去可能第一個台灣前幾年今年當然有些契機改變了前幾年因為我們要推動所謂2025年非核家園的立場所以說很多人才他後來"},{"start":18718.079,"end":18746.778,"text":"就算他畢業之後他就不會往這個方向或是他畢業多年之後他投向了科技業去投向半導體產業他賺了更多的錢那今天問題是你要把他請回來去繼續投入這個核能相關產業的時候你要用什麼樣的立場或是你有什麼資金來源可以去處理這件事情你有沒有這個規劃我們台電公司基本上所有的員工都有他的這個比如說我們戴玉說老實話也不錯啦台電啦那我們盡量支持他獎金的部分我們盡量來支持啦"},{"start":18748.596,"end":18760.308,"text":"當然大業不錯啦但是跟科技業比不能比啦那我現在要講的是什麼我現在提醒部長我們可以為國為國貢獻我們現在有一個核後端基金嘛對那核後端基金能不能在人才培育上人才待遇上提供更多的資源"},{"start":18761.375,"end":18787.342,"text":"法律上可不可以 我不曉得好像法律上沒有這個項目可以啦除非那個管理辦法有修改啦要不然是現在是不能因為我看我們核貨端基金最新的這個數字有五千多億我們希望說後續要去處理相關人才的培養還有接上去 包含說你要找國際人才來應該要有一個資金資本的支出 不然誰要來幫我做這個事情可以嗎"},{"start":18787.95,"end":18813.339,"text":"我們來思考一下好不好跟委員報告因為我們台電有一些自己的規定的相關獎學金的辦法那這是我們現在法律上可以用的核貨斷基金的管制真的非常嚴連他的支息等等都限制很多我想這樣子好不好台電公司還是去找其他合法合規的資金然後把這樣子的辦法請再通知這一個報告給這個黃委員謝謝"},{"start":18818.885,"end":18828.613,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員 陳培宇委員 陳培宇委員 盧憲宇委員好 我們請盧憲宇委員上台質詢請國務部長"},{"start":18845.221,"end":18866.797,"text":"好部長辛苦了那剛才的第一題我本來要問的剛才我們黃建豪委員就問了就是關於未來我們核安核能的這些人員就是說我們在招募在訓練這部分可能就是要花一筆心思再去重組因為可能我們核子工程系已經沒有學生在念了那第二個就是我們一直一個"},{"start":18868.311,"end":18896.66,"text":"我們主任的一個共同的懲痛就是在1982年的時候一直到1996年一共在蘭嶼儲存了將近10萬桶就是97672桶的核廢料那當時在那樣的一個情境裡面當然就是沒有所謂的諮商同意權所以就在那裡蓋了那現在進步到這樣一個文明時代那我們希望在立法的一個程序裡面是不是在公投的議題"},{"start":18897.981,"end":18913.601,"text":"是不是要儘早來施作或者說去研議去規劃說是要地方政府弄還是相公所來弄或者是關係部落來劃定然後地方政府的角色是什麼我是覺得說是不是要開始思考這個議題"},{"start":18919.297,"end":18946.509,"text":"報告委員我們現在是基本上部落諮商是原基法就規定了所以我只要到原住民傳統領域只要有開發行為我就一定要做這件事對 所以沒有錯可是因為我們有好幾次經驗比如說風力發電即將要進行的在我們屏東的返山可是他們在做這些東西的時候其實並不細緻甚至是很粗糙所以我是覺得說既然"},{"start":18946.989,"end":18962.011,"text":"已經有來於這個經驗了是不是在未來說不定也是選址是在我們原住民地區的話是不是要及早規劃這方面的一個程序要如何來做不要到最後又造成族人的恐慌跟大家又拒絕的在那邊抗議就到最後又沒有辦法進行"},{"start":18962.572,"end":18981.682,"text":"是一定的因為原居法有規定我們就要按照這個法律來進行我大概知道選址的幾個點我去詢問目前部落的一些主委的想法其實他們很多人是樂見其成不過這個法定的一些條件我覺得應該事先規劃可以嗎"},{"start":18983.303,"end":19011.127,"text":"然後最主要是我們現在蘭嶼已經也沒有所謂的要把東西遷出去的這個規劃因為找不到嘛所以一直放在那裡那現在已經幾十年過去我想說是不是在他們的身體健康檢查以外是不是要增加一個所謂的血癌跟我們假裝腺癌的一個每年的固定或者是每幾年的固定的篩檢讓我們知道說確實這個核能的一個核廢料的儲存不會造成當地族人一個健康的損害"},{"start":19011.927,"end":19040.77,"text":"沒有問題所以以後如果說有這樣的資料應該要儘早公布給國人知道那以後在選址的時候那個核配料選址的時候就應該可以更說服國人說這個是安全的對今年我們就會全面性的這個健康檢查有安排了那我剛才講的項目就是說除了健康檢查一般的健康檢查以外一定要增加這兩個癌症的那個指標也就是血癌跟甲醬腺我們了解特定項目的檢查OK"},{"start":19041.491,"end":19066.716,"text":"那現在我們的核配料的問題我們之前知道是大概是在離島跟原住民地區所以我覺得這個原住民地區的那個溝通我希望能夠事先然後也希望能夠邀請原民會希望原民會能夠擔任很重要的角色在這個裡面因為如果沒有原民會來跟部落的主任或者是說他的用地的部分我覺得這個困難都會少很多"},{"start":19067.176,"end":19087.447,"text":"是是我們一定會優先來處理這樣的事情溝通的事情OK謝謝部長好我們謝謝這個先委員謝謝部長跟董事長何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員接下來我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":19098.72,"end":19124.68,"text":"主席好 我要請經濟部長及台電經濟部部長跟台電曾董事長葉委員好部長好我剛剛有聽民進黨立委他講說現在不是因為缺電才要重啟核二跟核三我真的覺得很搞笑如果不是怕缺電的話那幹嘛要重啟民進黨反核反了一輩子了忽然間法甲灣送出這個戰運轉計畫幹嘛"},{"start":19127.421,"end":19156.499,"text":"核管法雖然通過但核管法沒有規定說一定要送再運轉計畫只是把法規鬆綁說假設台電想送的話不受停業之前的實現的影響但是要不要送也是決定權還是在經濟部跟台電啊所以經濟部跟台電要送再運轉計畫3月底就要送了嘛當然是怕以後會缺電啊AI的發展啊 半導體的發展啊所以我們不太懂說這個時候還要去扯說唉 重啟核二核三不是因為缺電我真的覺得太搞笑了"},{"start":19157.159,"end":19175.817,"text":"那我想要確定一件事情因為現在不管是賴總統也好或者是經濟部台電也好都講說核二核三現在送再運轉計畫最快如果到時候程序都很順利的話核安會把關都沒有問題的話最快核三是2028重啟"},{"start":19177.338,"end":19188.951,"text":"然後最快核二是二零二九重啟嘛是有這個這個時程你有聽過嗎部長我們最快經濟部的部分就是我們自主要解決我是說你有沒有聽過啦有沒有聽過這個時程啊"},{"start":19191.506,"end":19217.978,"text":"沒有嗎但是我們只能確定有沒有聽過就是有台電還有核安會包括總統太院長有講過這個時程最快啦當然當然呢有時候可能會發生一些變數或什麼之類會往後推遲嘛但是這個這個時程你有沒有聽過沒有我看到的是媒體推測啦媒體推測對好那然後呢現在說有一個三原則核安無虞核廢有解社會公事"},{"start":19219.399,"end":19238.511,"text":"這三個原則好像聽起來很具體但其實很空洞核安無虞我覺得這個我們就尊重核安會到時候對於核電再運轉計畫或老化分析的評估這個就由專業的人判斷那核廢有解是什麼意思因為按照部長您剛剛答詢其他委員的說法"},{"start":19239.011,"end":19258.408,"text":"像核二現在核廢是因為它的水池滿了嘛那乾式除塵槽拿到使用執照之後它就可以把核廢移到乾式除塵槽去啊那假設2029年順利2029年要重啓化那我就問嘛現在核廢就是放在那邊就是放在乾式除塵槽那這樣算不算核廢有解"},{"start":19259.578,"end":19279.651,"text":"這個就要 社會有共識先不要扯社會共識 因為你三原則是獨立的部長 不要迴避問題 社會共識我等一下會跟你討論那這樣算不算核廢有解 放在根式儲存潮算不算核廢有解還是說要找到最終處置場才是核廢有解你要把定義定義清楚啊"},{"start":19280.751,"end":19303.921,"text":"那是什麼嘛我就說經濟部的解讀來講的話我們就做好安全的安全我說尊重核安會啦我現在問你核廢的定義什麼叫核廢有解以核二的部分放在乾屍儲存槽算不算核廢有解還是說要最終處置長找到才叫核廢有解定義是什麼就經濟部來講中間的中中間我們把它顧好"},{"start":19306.043,"end":19319.62,"text":"所以河北就有解啦 河安就看河安會嘛社會共識是什麼 社會共識就是看你怎麼去跟社會講嘛社會共識是要做公投嗎 是要做民調 社會共識它的量表是什麼"},{"start":19321.482,"end":19342.029,"text":"他怎麼判定是共識但是跟委員報告一下剛剛講就是中間的中那是我說是經濟部的立場但是要大家有共識他的確是那大家的共識是怎麼有共識嘛你是要做民調還是做公投還是賴總統所有人就算因為是總統所以總統講的就是共識我們現在先把這個安全做好"},{"start":19342.689,"end":19364.503,"text":"如果沒有安全的話 我在跟你討論原則問題都只好卡到安全 這三個不同的原則嘛不是 你有安全 因為我的職業有限職業職業有限 聽得出來你無法定義嘛那你無法定義的情況之下 這三個原則就空的啊你們一方面喔 告訴那個永和的 或者是怕缺電的人想說 我有要推喔"},{"start":19365.183,"end":19383.874,"text":"我有要推喔有一個2028跟2029的這樣的一個時程所以大家不用緊張半導體AIOK的投給我們民進黨沒問題我們有要推囉另外一方面你又跟那些反核的講說放心啦還有我們有三個原則啦核安核廢跟社會共識但是你又講不清楚這三個原則是什麼"},{"start":19384.634,"end":19399.084,"text":"你這是包牌欸你讓挺核的人覺得說好像你要推核電你讓反核的人覺得說放心啦我還有三原則把關但是你什麼原則講不清楚啊稀哩呼嚕這個搞不好這一任其實再等我這一任就過了啊"},{"start":19399.944,"end":19423.873,"text":"所以我跟有缺電問題是很務實問題我真的不希望政府到現在還用話術來面對人員的議題啦周研院的資料啦我跟你講喔 周研院資料2050年我們用電量是六千億度啦去年是兩千八百億度我們在二十幾年我們要發電要兩倍啦你這兩倍哪來啦你要務實的面對這個我真的希望務實第二件事情"},{"start":19429.355,"end":19452.558,"text":"我想問一下現在剛剛好像部長也有講說我們現在天然氣供應無虞了嘛我們搶氣都成功了嘛那我想請問一下我們現在搶氣的價格大概是跟卡達買的幾倍大概差不多一倍吧兩倍嘛一倍嘛就是多一倍啦多一倍那這樣子大概多付出多少成本"},{"start":19454.294,"end":19481.997,"text":"以我們已經搶到六月來講的話已經多付多少錢一船的話大概多付十億到十一億左右所以我們大概全部總共多付了十一億不是一船一船那總共搶了幾船嘛大概現在應該二十幾船吧所以現在是多付了二十幾億那之後如果說戰事一直延續的話就會越付越多因為我想要知道這個因為我要謝謝中友啊所以我要知道我們要下到什麼程度啦那現在這個大概應該還OK吧都還撐得下去吧"},{"start":19482.796,"end":19510.392,"text":"大家還可以一直不斷卸下去啊我們有已經提了這個怎麼樣增資協助中友的計畫啦那中友要謝謝你們就我們謝謝中友啊中友謝謝經營部然後大家謝謝經營部是這個意思不是我們要謝謝大院看能不能支持大家都下來卸去就好了啦有夠無聊的就務實的把問題解決啦好不好現在物價現在塑膠袋什麼都要漲了啦我真的希望政府可以好好的這個平衣物價謝謝"},{"start":19513.149,"end":19518.572,"text":"謝謝院支部委員林楚英蘇清泉羅明才武麗華羅志強萬美玲"},{"start":19536.701,"end":19564.02,"text":"好 登記發言委員處不在場外區域經已發言完畢 巡查結束第二 委員吳立華 羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 上書面質詢和位及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會委員並要求期限者從期鎖定本會鎖列一程處理完畢謝謝大家 現在散會"},{"start":19626.681,"end":19626.869,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}