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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1750.011,"end":1757.851,"text":"好 那我們會議開始那請組密報告初期人數報告委員會初期委員12人 已組法定人數"},{"start":1759.138,"end":1783.479,"text":"好那現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第五會期經紀人會第四次全體委員會議事錄時間115年3月25日星期三9時至14時4分地點紅樓101會議室出席人邱映穎等14人列席人林大萬等26人列席人員經濟部部長龔明星等主席召集委員洪玉祥"},{"start":1783.959,"end":1812.878,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長列席報告優惠概況並備質詢三 邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力公司董事長就核二核三廠自主安全檢查現況與再運轉計畫及政府重啟核電三原則之歷年進度與現況說明進行報告並備質詢報告事項合併詢答經濟部部長龔迎新及台灣電力公司董事長曾文森報告後文靜穎等30億人提出質詢"},{"start":1813.678,"end":1834.434,"text":"居然經濟部部長龔明星等及其答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二 委員吳立華及羅志強所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三 書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員六 要求期限者從其所定 散會宣布完畢"},{"start":1836.087,"end":1848.713,"text":"好那因為目前在場委員還不足三人我們議事錄的確定暫不處理接下來繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請公民交易委員會代理主任委員練習報告優惠概況並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1854.838,"end":1877.79,"text":"好我們介紹一下在場的委員跟這個官員代表那我們在場有邱穎穎委員那公平教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明然後公平教育委員會主任秘書毛浩吉那因為其他的單位以及主管眾多我就不一一介紹謝謝"},{"start":1881.988,"end":1891.182,"text":"好 那本日議程我們排定這個公平交易委員會業務報告那麼請公平交易委員會陳志明代理主任委員報告"},{"start":1901.691,"end":1922.432,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位同仁大家早安今天很榮幸能夠代表公平會來到經濟委員會進行公平交易委員會的業務報告首先感謝貴院跟經濟委員會在過去一年來對公平會的大力支持以下我僅僅要的從十個面向來跟各位委員報告公平會過去這一年的業務推展"},{"start":1923.346,"end":1935.654,"text":"首先就執行公平交易法跟多層次傳銷管理法的部分本會在114年度共收辦案件3820件 結案件數達3978件處分案件有169件 裁罰金額共計6106萬元我們近期查處的重大案件包含了木星板產製業者的合意調漲價格 地方工會"},{"start":1947.222,"end":1975.352,"text":"訂定收費標準以及部分的建案跟教育產品涉及誤導期望消費者的行為另外我們也積極查處沒有依法來辦變更報備或沒有依多層次傳銷管理辦法辦理退出退貨的案件那進一步在事業的結合跟聯合行為的審議方面我們審查了不少的案子包含了遠傳電信跟新世紀之東思納捷科技的結合案我們也不禁止Uber跟皇冠大車隊的結合案"},{"start":1976.452,"end":2004.241,"text":"那同時我們對於喬太星企業等35家事業的聯合採購小麥案那另外一個值得一提的是有關Dell公司跟供應鏈事業之間聯合採購再生能源的申請案我們都在附加負擔之下我們通過了我們許可的這個結合案那Dell案也是本會首例事業以永續發展作為核心來申請聯合行為例外許可的案例相當具有指標性"},{"start":2004.961,"end":2023.134,"text":"那再者關於生成式AI人工智慧的執法方向那各界都非常關切生成式AI的發展本會在115年的3月18日發布了一項政策聲明那在這項政策聲明當中我們彙整了公眾的意見提出了七項的競爭議題"},{"start":2024.835,"end":2048.537,"text":"包含了晶片跟數據取得的限制雲端服務轉換困難搭售與生態系整合人才流動事業結合聯合行為以及不當行銷等重要的競爭議題那在聲明當中本會確立的四大執法的一個原則那就是議題跟證據導向在地連結可競爭性以及合理原則這會是我們未來在處理AI相關的競爭議題時候的一個執法基礎"},{"start":2050.999,"end":2064.508,"text":"同時我們在永續的參考指引方面的制定為了避免事業在永續發展的過程當中誤觸了競爭法規範的紅線我們以2050年的這個禁營排放目標為基礎在114年的2月19號發布了事業因應環境永續涉及聯合行為之參考指引我們希望能夠給企業一個自我檢視的一個警察的清單來降低他們違法的風險"},{"start":2081.139,"end":2101.876,"text":"那在頒布這個指引後我們並且在各地舉辦了宣導的說明會來協助企業理解並落實永續的行為那這項指引獲得國際的高度肯定就在昨天我們得到消息我們的這個指引獲得了2026年國際知名的競爭法出版商Konkyu Holmes他的反托拉斯寫作獎"},{"start":2103.325,"end":2121.737,"text":"那另外為了遏止這個不實廣告維護消費者權益114年度我們共處分了不實廣告案件105件罰還1581萬元那為了強化我們的查查效能我們持續推動數位匯流新時代的不實廣告及不動產查查的計畫"},{"start":2123.038,"end":2133.652,"text":"並且透過科技執法針對AI生成廣告以及類似像碳中和、淨零等表率的相關的廣告進行監控來確保消費者不受不實廣告的誤導"},{"start":2135.083,"end":2160.451,"text":"那至於在多層次傳銷管理的精進措施部分呢我們為了確保傳銷商以及正當的傳銷事業的權益本會在114年共處分違法傳銷案件30件裁罰金額合計645萬元而且完成了4570件的報備與變更案件完成業務檢查54家另外本會也建置了透明的查詢平台"},{"start":2161.071,"end":2188.911,"text":"那我们公开这个传销商跟传销事业之间的这个所谓奖金比例的规定而且我们新增了近三年违法次数较多的业者名单同时揭露违法案件的类型来提升资讯的透明度那我们也持续跟检调卫生机关合作来共同打击不法的传销行为那接着在竞争法治的研修部分本会已经成立了修法小组那我们全面的检视修正公平交易法的修法草案"},{"start":2189.611,"end":2206.965,"text":"另外近期我們也修正調高獨佔認定跟結合申報的金額的門檻來反映經濟發展的趨勢並且降低業者不必要的行政負擔那同時也修正了很多多項處理原則跟申請的須知來確保法規能夠更符合市場的現況"},{"start":2208.426,"end":2228.837,"text":"另一方面為了防止人為操縱物價本會透過專案小組監測民生物資並且在春節、端午節、中秋節等節慶執行查核計畫本會也參與行政院穩定物價小組的運作密切與經濟部、農業部等相關部會合作共同穩定物價"},{"start":2229.958,"end":2254.04,"text":"同時我們也積極的倡議公平交易的理念本會持續透過多元的管道包含網路、電視、政府部門的會議大眾院校的訓練營及產業的宣導來推廣公平交易的概念提升社會大眾對於維持市場競爭價值的一個認知那最後在深化國際交流跟合作方面"},{"start":2254.781,"end":2276.221,"text":"公平會積極的參與OECD、ICN還有APEC等國際會議本人也親自率訪同仁到日本、新加坡、巴拉圭等地進行雙邊會議跟交流分享我國在永續指引還有生成式AI競爭法議題的經驗這些交流除了對本會深有注意以外也獲得了各國的一個肯定"},{"start":2277.595,"end":2296.171,"text":"公平教育的競爭環境是促進資源有效配置提升產業效率強化國家競爭力的重要關鍵公平會將持續完備法制精進執法品質與效率確保市場機制發揮作用為國家永續繁榮定定穩固的基礎以上報告敬請委員執教"},{"start":2300.848,"end":2323.145,"text":"好那現在進行詢答委員執行前原例做以下的宣告那每位委員的發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們首先請登記第一位的邱益穎委員發言謝謝"},{"start":2329.745,"end":2332.328,"text":"主委我想請教一下你可以想像現在塑膠袋缺貨嗎"},{"start":2348.999,"end":2372.571,"text":"我從沒一樣大家都知道有看到你有看到這個新聞嗎大家講說這個因為中東情勢的影響所以很多的原物料短缺或者是很多的原物料這個價格上漲石化的原物料價格也上漲那昨天其實這個蔡易餘委員陳書越委員等他們其實有召開一個記者會那也曾經也在這個委員會的場合問過了經濟部"},{"start":2374.693,"end":2390.971,"text":"現在市面上塑膠袋跟便當盒等這種一次性的包材在末端是買不到的那甚或至是在農業上面很多農民的這個農作物是需要套袋我們的這個塑膠袋也是買不到的"},{"start":2392.212,"end":2413.227,"text":"經濟部去查了一下他說其實原物料並沒有短缺但是中盤的經銷商延遲出貨操作價格已經有這樣的情形出現那主委您說你有看到這個新聞請問一下看到新聞之後您的後續動作是什麼就公評會來講會不會主動出擊主動去調查來"},{"start":2417.653,"end":2445.351,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是這些新聞出來以後我們也看到其實經濟部已經開始進行全面性的市場盤查當然本會在知道這個消息以後業務單位也去進了一個初步的了解那針對這個塑膠袋這個產業不同的品質塑膠袋價格等等那目前當然公平會立場我們對這個物價的波動主要是以聯合行為為主就是同一時間是不是有聯合漲價這個情形那我們有密切在觀察那業務單位已經持續在進行市場的了解"},{"start":2445.811,"end":2461.982,"text":"當然我會配合經濟部那邊調查結果如果有聯合我想現在還沒有到聯合漲價的狀況現在大概是聯合延遲出貨囤貨然後造成市場上面對於塑膠袋的需求短缺恐慌然後慢慢的"},{"start":2462.682,"end":2483.977,"text":"他就會烘台價格這個價格就會漲上去了所以他這個是有節奏性的當然他不會一次到聯合漲價但是如果公平會要等到他聯合漲價的時候才來做稽查才來做調查的話那我覺得那個動作都太慢了所以我們一直不斷的每一次在這裡都會請公平會應該要更積極主動一點就你已經發現這個問題"},{"start":2485.598,"end":2505.222,"text":"他在源頭已經出來了當然經濟部已經注意到了所以是不是公平會也應該更積極主動一點到底是不是囤貨壟斷造成延遲性出貨然後慢慢的要去烘台價格你如果能夠在前段的時候就先嚇指他的話那你就不會有後面烘台價格我剛剛跟委員報告就是業務單位已經會繼續觀察當然剛剛委員談到聯合囤積這也是聯合行為"},{"start":2510.123,"end":2518.347,"text":"所以只要有事證的話我們會介入調查我們會主動調查第二個我想請教一下主委您也應該會常常關心時事的進展這個外送平台的併購案最近有一個很大的新聞就是Grab去收購Foodpanda"},{"start":2538.996,"end":2567.907,"text":"那其实在您的报告里头也提到了我们去年在讨论Uber Eats要去并购Fu Panda的这个案子其实引起了台湾的社会大众很大的关心这个会不会造成如果这两家结合Uber Eats跟Fu Panda结合之后其实在台湾的市占率是高达九成以上那当然公平会已经禁止他们了但是最近这个GrabGrab在台湾它没有任何的业务执行但它在东南亚其实是一个Super App"},{"start":2568.667,"end":2585.937,"text":"它包含食衣住行等等其實它在東南亞的影響力是非常的大那Grab去併購去收購Fu Panda我們擔心的是說它是不是有一個繞道的行為因為這個Grab的它其實"},{"start":2587.492,"end":2605.975,"text":"Uber是Grab的重要股東Uber佔了這個股份大概是13%我想這個你們應該有密切掌握那Uber的執行長其實也是Grab的董事所以就這樣的一個結合情形結合案到底公平會是怎麼看"},{"start":2606.724,"end":2626.204,"text":"因為這個案子目前還沒有送件所以我想等案子進來以後我們還是會依照過去在審Uber Eats跟那個Foodpanda的案子那個分析架構來進行分析當然這個案子跟前面那個案子有點不太一樣因為前面案子是結尾以後市佔率會高達九成那這個案子基本上是一個企業來頂Foodpanda的地位那不過剛剛委員提到這個問題 繞道的問題"},{"start":2628.186,"end":2656.251,"text":"股權持有的問題這也是我們在分析當中會特別注意不過這個地方先跟委員說明一下就是說雖然UberEats持有Grab的13.5%但是據我們進一步的了解從它的財報去看其實那個股權結構是有不同的類型有A股B股所以實際上它的控制的權力可能沒有達到13%不過我們還是會繼續的去注意就是說這個13%這件事實會不會導致他們在結合以後有進行市場行為濫用的一個可能性"},{"start":2656.511,"end":2679.991,"text":"這些都是我們在分析當中會特別去注意所以你們現在也已經開始在收集資料我想對於公平匯來講我們大概也不是說就形式上比如說他不是用Uber Eats的名字來併購Foodpanda他換了一個名字叫Grab換了一家公司那實際的在股權的掌握上面或者是在這個整個公司的實質影響力上面"},{"start":2680.892,"end":2703.146,"text":"對於Foodpanda的公司運作上面是不是會造成巨大的影響會不會也造成間接的壟斷行為這個我想也都是公平會應該要考量的重點這個我們後續再分析的部分我想也要再跟您討論到就是說我們的外送專法這個外送平台專法即將要上路"},{"start":2704.787,"end":2733.561,"text":"公平會的角色在這個外送專法的上路的這個同時當然這個跟公平會沒有太大的連結公平會大概還是防止壟斷不過這樣的一個併購案如果它真的是一個繞道的併購案的話我想對於我們這個外送專法的上路對於外送員的這樣的一個保障其實還是會受到相當大的影響的"},{"start":2734.561,"end":2751.476,"text":"我想外送專法的實施如果導致平台他把成本轉嫁給下游那彼此之間出現了按摩勾結聯合漲價的行為這當然我們還是有空間可以去介入主要就是在外送專法實施以後後續所引發的這些競爭行為如果抵觸公平法我們還是有介入的空間"},{"start":2752.856,"end":2772.225,"text":"我想這個還是要請公平會要密切的注意第三題要跟您請教主委您知道這家公司嗎我知道你們有沒有開始在介入調查有 這個有調查那現在調查的狀況是什麼這家魅力公司還真的很厲害"},{"start":2774.183,"end":2785.489,"text":"它的魚油120顆就要賣600塊美金我算了一下如果你用美元的匯率如果乘以30的話120顆要賣18000塊台幣等於一顆要賣150塊一顆魚油要賣150塊而且它沒有健康食品的字號"},{"start":2795.663,"end":2814.11,"text":"那我們昨天試圖要進入這家公司的網站這網站已經被封了 已經被封起來了那這個刑事警察局直接認定這是一家詐騙所以這家公司到底有沒有來跟公平會申請報備那當時你們的審核標準是什麼"},{"start":2817.659,"end":2842.157,"text":"他們113年的時候有報備那這家公司目前已經申請要停止營業已經有跟我們來報備來跟你們申請停止營業對但是對於這個假傳銷珍稀金的這個狀態公平會的掌握程度到哪裡我們曾經有因為他並跟商品沒有來報備我們處分過他在個案當中那目前還在調查就是說他有沒有該因報備而不報備的一個情況"},{"start":2842.978,"end":2867.472,"text":"所以這個案子還在調查當中所以主委這個也是我們一直在講傳銷直銷公司就是每一個都是用報備制其實我們沒有辦法進行實質的審查對於很多的消費大眾來講或者是很多的投資人來講你很容易就陷入這種假傳銷徵稀金然後被詐騙現在這個初估這一家公司的詐騙金額高達台幣15億元以上"},{"start":2872.655,"end":2899.207,"text":"這是一個非常非常嚴重的問題像這樣子一直不斷的幾乎每一次我們只要跟公平會談都會有一家新的直銷公司出狀況甚至甚或是不只一家那這些狀態公平會也只能用報備的方式去處理這個也是我們覺得很憂心的其實有心人要詐騙的話就會鑽這個直銷的漏洞這個也是我們在法令上應該要趕快去補足的地方"},{"start":2899.997,"end":2926.927,"text":"我想詐騙的部分當然我也很清楚就是由法務部這邊來處理詐騙當然是法務部處理我現在講就是說這些傳銷公司這個報備許可制這個裡面有一些因素必須要同時考慮因為傳銷也是一個商業行為所以到底許可報備等等之間的糾葛本會在過去也表達過我們的立場就是說對於這個傳銷事業本身也是零售事業的一部分是不是有適合高強度的介入管制我覺得這還有必要進一步去"},{"start":2927.247,"end":2950.846,"text":"不過你如果發現這樣的一個詐騙行為詐騙案件或詐騙公司一直不斷的在上升的時候其實公平會就不應該這麼相悅也不應該這麼消極這是本席的建議好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱映委員謝謝公平會主委好那因為在場人數已足三人請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤無錯誤議事錄確定"},{"start":2955.526,"end":2969.377,"text":"那現在請楊瓊英委員進行質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席 楊瓊英代言邀請主委請主委上台"},{"start":2975.765,"end":2992.934,"text":"主委長那鑑於外送平臺市場高度的一個集中在2024年底呢我們這個Uber Eats跟普遍達的申請合併案那因為市場的高度"},{"start":2993.634,"end":3019.937,"text":"这个高达九成的一个市占率所以当时呢怕说影响整个市场的竞争所以最后公品会是否决是否决这也引起社会大众大家非常非常的关注但是近期东南亚数位这个服务商他宣布要以六亿美元来收购护片打我们台湾的外送这个业务网"},{"start":3021.258,"end":3031.651,"text":"但是我們也知道Uber呢是Grab最大的一個機構股東它幾乎佔了13%左右那所以外界質疑是不是會透過股權結構 繞道來投資實際上"},{"start":3038.118,"end":3049.503,"text":"我們現在達成了原先被否決的市場整合效果所以公平問你雖然也表示了個案是獨立審查不會因為舊案來影響新案但是最終的市場的一個結構仍舊會高度的集中那麼如果僅是以投資架構不同來重新來審查"},{"start":3066.371,"end":3088.484,"text":"那麼可能會造成規避競爭審查的一個疑慮所以本席要在這邊請教請教Grab收購這個Hupenda的案中那Uber它身為主要的股東之一公平問你是不是會就實質控制力而非僅是以形式股權的一個結構來進行審查呢請做說明"},{"start":3092.046,"end":3096.49,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員講的沒錯我們在審查的時候我們會以實質的控制關係來判斷所以我們原則就是以實質控制力來做審查的精髓我跟委員再進一步說明就是說沒錯我們初步的了解是UberEat的控制大概13%左右Grab的股權"},{"start":3110.54,"end":3128.794,"text":"但是我們進一步去看財報它的股權結構是有分不同的股權就是有些股權是沒有表決權或是表決權數比較多的所以實際上Uber對Grab的控制力可能沒有達到13.5這個數字所呈現出來不過我們在分析過程當中這個13.5這個形式上的要件會不會影響到結合以後"},{"start":3130.856,"end":3159.399,"text":"他透過某一種他一定會超半數以上嘛這個我們會後續會在分析的時候會把它納入分析的過程當中所以我們原則上還是以實質控制力為最重要的精髓審查方向那所以本席認為如果最終的市場他集中的效果跟先前遭到否決遭到否決的合併案是相近的那麼如果你公民會一旦"},{"start":3159.88,"end":3170.262,"text":"你的核准那等于你允许了允许了这个业者透过闹道投资的方式来规避原有的反垄断的一个审查"},{"start":3171.377,"end":3194.06,"text":"請再說說明所以剛剛委員講的沒錯就是說如果結合以後導致市場過度集中那這兩個案子基本上在股權在市場佔有率的影響前案跟後案是不太一樣前案結合以後九成大概市佔率會達到九成那這個案子是一家公司來接付PANDA的原先的地位所以事實上從初步來看的話它的市場結構是沒有太大的改變只是換一個人來做而已"},{"start":3194.801,"end":3223.283,"text":"那當然這個並不表示說一定都沒有問題我們還是在審查過程當中會進行這個市場整個整體分析來看看他對市場的影響程度我們唯一要避免落到投資的方式去取巧這個非常重要這第一點第二個我們要重視全我們市場的一個公平競爭你不能導致削弱了溢價的一個能力這是非常重要的也是我們消費者都在看的一個議題"},{"start":3226.496,"end":3246.773,"text":"因為我們的目的就是第一個不能壟斷而且市場不能沒有競爭對消費者來講能夠達到他的一個公平性那對業者也能夠達到一個市場的一個競爭這才能夠達到三贏這也是你公平會最重要的精神這個案子現在還沒進來但是我們分析的架構就如同剛剛委員講的"},{"start":3247.854,"end":3266.803,"text":"那個是一個大的架構我們一定會面面的考慮到這些問題好 也就是以實質控制力接下來本席要跟你討論深層次的人工智慧產業快速的發展那麼全球都在佈局大家都高度的關注大型科技公司在算力"},{"start":3268.063,"end":3286.197,"text":"以及在資料還有整個平台生態上的一個市場集中的這個問題那你在3月19號你也提出了公布出深層式AI競爭政策的一個宣布但是你提出了三個方向導向第一個議題"},{"start":3287.338,"end":3298.664,"text":"第二個證據第三個合理的原則為你執行的方向所以你認為到目前為止並沒有需要再修法的一個必要性但是AI產業它具有高度規模的經濟網路的一個效應所以如果從算力來看從雲端服務來看"},{"start":3310.049,"end":3328.34,"text":"模型的一個平台來看他整個市場的力道力量正快速的在集中少數的跨國企業上那如果你僅以個案來作為審查那到時候你是不是有這個能力能夠因應的整個新型的"},{"start":3328.94,"end":3345.297,"text":"新型態的一個壟斷跟競爭的一個限制行為那所以主委本席要請教面對新城市AI你可能形成的平台壟斷與算力中心你未來會出現大型的科技公司透過資料"},{"start":3347.41,"end":3374.256,"text":"順利生態這個生態系的一個優勢呢來排除這個競爭力那你是不是已經具備有監理的這個工具呢跟委員報告一下這個因為就當如同委員所講的整個AI市場的變化太快了所以我們之所以做這個AI的生成是公眾意見其實就是讓公平的進一步去了解目前市場的現況那針對所可能產生的這些相關的競爭問題包含委員剛剛所關切的問題"},{"start":3377.037,"end":3397.295,"text":"我們就目前現階段看起來我們公平法裡面的既有架構是可以初步來處理但是我們要強化的部分是在於我們數位執法的能力就是當業者使用某些特定的數位技術在進行違反競爭行為我們是不是有能力去破解這樣的技術重點就在這裡所以你認為你不需要修法你的基本架構是夠的但是"},{"start":3399.517,"end":3416.902,"text":"日新月異的比如說數位您剛才所說的我們要怎麼去應對也就是本席說的你的監理工具你具備了嗎這個我們持續都在精進包含我們不管在軟硬體部分還有在人才訓練的部分我們都積極的這個部分必須要與時俱進好 一定要加油那接下來最後一個議題本席告訴你土方的問題"},{"start":3423.891,"end":3449.078,"text":"在這個2月25號的時候國土署正式給你公文請公平會協助調查釐清是否有涉及聯合壟斷以及調漲的這個問題請教到目前為止你們查的情況怎麼樣其實在跟國土署進行協商之前我們已經有進行市場進行了解那到目前為止我們發現市場上的價格並沒有聯合一致的情況"},{"start":3449.938,"end":3466.242,"text":"但是普遍都漲了三倍啊他是漲價 這個漲價很奇怪但是你認為很奇怪 我們消費者更奇怪啊公共工程都已經影響了 各縣市都已經困難了那怎麼辦連國土署都請求你協助啊所以我們請國土署說能夠協助我們如果他手邊有比較具體的證據可以協助我們那我們來判斷是不是有聯合行為你剛才說漲價很奇怪"},{"start":3475.925,"end":3481.489,"text":"但是國土組織政府機構都要求你協助我們的分工是我們會針對聯合漲價這部分來處理那你社會現象就是漲啊那你已經影響到公共工程啊民間也影響啊 電視也影響啊"},{"start":3494.179,"end":3505.588,"text":"聯合行為的發動必須要市場價格有一致同業之間的價格趨於一致我們才可以 本席具體要求喔也就是說你們告訴社會大眾說要有業者來檢舉你們才會立案調查這一點本席認為已經社會普遍化的一個困難你們應該要主動調查我們有主動啦 對不對不能等到有人檢舉你才要因為已經是社會非常普遍的一個問題產生現象了嘛"},{"start":3521.621,"end":3537.526,"text":"還是跟委員報告一下我們有主動去調查但是要不要立案這個立案要有一定的基本的法律的條件就是我剛剛講的業者之間的價格是不是趨於一致那這個時候我們可以立案那調查了解市場現況那個價格的波動我們是一直都有持續在做市場競爭的這個機制是整個產業"},{"start":3542.088,"end":3546.073,"text":"聯動非常重要的一個關鍵本席說的連國土署都請你必須要協助趕快去查有沒有聯合壟斷趕快去查有沒有這個現象代表著社會目前對這個議題它是產生困難的疑惑的"},{"start":3558.188,"end":3579.258,"text":"所以公平會的立場非常的重要所以這一點本身也希望在國土署2月25號函請正式函請你公平會協助調查釐清是否涉及聯合漲價與壟斷的行為這一點你務必要做到對不對我們持續都有在做了我們持續都有在做了好 加油謝謝 謝謝我好 謝謝楊承英委員"},{"start":3583.38,"end":3610.076,"text":"我想這個工業對於剛剛不管是塑膠袋塑料然後還有這個土方是亂的我想就是主動積極一點好不好好那接下來我們請鄭正琴委員質詢謝謝主席好我想請一下陳主委陳主委請上台謝謝"},{"start":3617.786,"end":3634.88,"text":"主委好我想因為我們在去上個會期的時候我們順利通過外送源權益保障及外送平台管理法然後其實之前有關於Uber原本打算要把福佩娜併掉的時候其實也引起很大的一個社會的關注"},{"start":3635.26,"end":3650.354,"text":"因為現在這個外送相關領域跟這個外送員跟消費者關係實在太密切了所以之前就是我們公會這邊其實也很具體的就是當時擋下了那個Uber想要併掉直接併掉Fupenda這件事情嘛"},{"start":3651.034,"end":3673.47,"text":"那最近一個新的一個動向就是因為東南亞的Grab其實他們有宣布想要把福本達台灣的市場把它給併下來那剛剛其實很多委員都關心到這個事情那您剛也特別具體提到了就是說Uber這邊它占了Grab它這邊大概只有13.1個百分點的持股可是它的實質影響力的部分大概只有5.5%"},{"start":3674.811,"end":3688.024,"text":"就是說他的具體持股跟他的控制能力其實確實有一些落差因為他們當然在規劃持股當中的問題那我想特別請教一下就是到目前為止當然就是規約他們還沒有送件進來嘛還沒有送件進來嘛"},{"start":3691.107,"end":3708.03,"text":"OK那我這邊想要特別提到一個狀態就說因為我後來去看了一下那個Grab在給美國政交委員會這邊所提出的一個年報當中的時候他這邊有特別提到了一個這個狀態那我想問幾個問題第一個情況就是針對剛剛我們講到說他只有暫時3.1%的持股他基本上就是"},{"start":3716.741,"end":3737.28,"text":"有重要的一個持股關係可是並沒有直接控制這樣的一個情況那我們公評會對於這樣子的一個狀態有沒有一個審查的標準還是到時候就用50%這邊最粗糙的方式這樣來看跟委員報告我們有一些量化的工具會針對這個持股比例對於後續結合以後"},{"start":3738.001,"end":3766.542,"text":"他的這個影響對市場價格影響我們會比較近客觀跟數據的客觀的分析所以其實並不是單純以50或不是50來做一個判斷那個就是如同剛剛我所講的我們會以實質的控制的能力理解那我這邊想特別提到其實因為我們回來就針對國內部分的時候我們特別去看因為他在給美國的那個年報當中的時候他第12頁他自己就提到說他們之前在東南亞就是要"},{"start":3767.242,"end":3780.674,"text":"收購Uber的一個市場的時候他們出現了一個禁業禁止的狀態那某一個部分在整個這過程當中其實對於整個公平交易這樣的狀態的時候"},{"start":3782.495,"end":3805.927,"text":"感覺上有一點點灰色 當然他還沒有違規違法這部分可是事實上確實也產生一些問題 但我們後來再去看整個Grab給美國的聯報當中我們看到他們在很多國家 事實上在整個公平交易相關的領域其實是很多爭議的包括在新加坡他們曾經想要收購一個Chance Cab 其實後來"},{"start":3806.747,"end":3811.452,"text":"被終止了後來被終止那麼在菲律賓這邊的時候因為他們違反了定價跟服務品的承諾被罰款100萬當然現在100萬美元當然現在他們還在訴訟爭議當中那菲律賓這邊其實也表示很可能會再提高對他們的一個罰金"},{"start":3825.566,"end":3852.279,"text":"那另外一個部分在馬來西亞這邊更關鍵因為在2019年的時候Grabber它濫用市場支配的地位然後對司機和合作夥伴施加限制性的一個條款然後被罰了2140萬美元那這個部分其實都是表示說Grabber這家公司在過去在國際當中的一些法尊的紀錄其實並不是那麼良好而且都牽涉到一些公平交易或者是市場壟斷的相關的一個事情針對這個部分"},{"start":3855.1,"end":3874.956,"text":"不知道主委如果說他們因為他們現在案子還沒有送價可是他們已經對市場上發布他們跟那個富盛大達成這樣的一個合意的一個狀態那對於這樣子他曾經在國外的市場出現很多個濫用市場力量違反主管機關附加條件還有傷害平台參與者權益這樣的一些記錄的時候我們對於這樣子的一個可能的一個併購方的時候那主委這邊怎麼看"},{"start":3883.102,"end":3906.393,"text":"我想在結合的審查部分當然我們主要是針對結合以後對市場結構的改變有沒有降低那個競爭的強度那剛剛委員所關切這些問題都是就是結合以後的行為濫用的問題那這部分當然公平會還是可以調查只是說我們的調查必須要有一些依據市場地位市場佔有率然後他的行為是不是真的有如同剛剛所舉的各國這種行為"},{"start":3907.213,"end":3926.552,"text":"理解 因為我在想說之前大家擔心Uber其實會壟斷全部的市場那它現在因為跟Grab是有很密切的一個關係它是重大的一個持股者然後可能會產生怎麼樣的實質影響力的部分確實是之後我們要做更精準的評估可是我們希望公評會這邊能夠嚴加把關"},{"start":3928.655,"end":3943.656,"text":"對於台灣的消費者還有真正在市場當中的一個從業者當中能夠做好最好的一個保障如果說這家廠商之前在海外有這麼多不適當的一些法尊記錄的時候那我們就希望更嚴格的來審查它好不好"},{"start":3944.156,"end":3971.36,"text":"謝謝委員提供這些資料我們會在審查的時候會納入考慮OK那我想說最近那個國際上對整個定業制企業有一些所謂的暗黑模式這個部分也引起很大的關注所謂的暗黑模式就是說企業不是透過產品本身吸引用戶而是透過頁面設計然後資訊揭露的落差以及繁瑣的流程讓消費者在不完全知情的情況下做出決定甚至於想退都退不掉一個最典型的就是Adobe"},{"start":3971.96,"end":3996.975,"text":"那美國這邊的時候呢已經對於他的年度合約越角的方式這樣的一個做法已經產生了一個懲處那英國也要求去針對這家公司這樣子的一個做法的時候來做一個進行的一個那個調查台灣對於這樣子的一個情況有沒有做什麼樣的動作"},{"start":3998.157,"end":4004.074,"text":"據我的了解 Adobe的那個行為他似乎好像已經在網站上取消就是那個解約金的部分"},{"start":4004.781,"end":4027.903,"text":"那台灣的部分我只要像速發部他應該有已經制定那個定型化契約將來會對暗黑模式的相關行為列為是定型化契約裡面所必須要遵守的一個規定那剛剛委員所談到國外的這些經驗其實就我的了解國外處理這個問題的法律的依據大部分都不是競爭法不是所謂的公平教育法或是反托拉斯法"},{"start":4028.283,"end":4045.428,"text":"大部分像美國它有一個特別的法規那其他國家有一些比較偏向於消費者保護的法規來處理這個問題那當然並不是說在我們公平法裡面完全沒有著墨的空間有時候暗黑模式如果你在網路上你有揭示一些訊息這些訊息實際上是做不到的"},{"start":4046.329,"end":4062.349,"text":"誤導消費者我們不排除有可能構成不實廣告不過這些前提都建議在他有把一些在性質上是屬於暗黑的事先在網路上去散佈出來讓消費者誤以為真的是這樣那如果他都沒做其實我們就很難去用什麼不實廣告來處理這樣的問題"},{"start":4063.951,"end":4091.836,"text":"OK 那我在想說因為現在這個那個數位經濟其實非常的發達啦那以這種訂閱的方式在為主要商業模式的企業其實非常非常的多所以我舉到這家公司的狀態的時候很大一個部分只是說針對這個部分就是我們只是針對這樣子所謂一個年度約的部分然後月繳的部分那當你要退出來的時候你要終止因為月繳很多消費者都以為說他可以直接終止"},{"start":4092.897,"end":4112.86,"text":"隨時終止那只要這個月處理完就好可是事實上我們發現他可能在這過程當中會有很多的一個懲罰條款會讓你要退出的時候門檻變得很多所以我們針對這個部分的時候不是針對這家公司而是針對這樣的產業我們希望公平會的時候能夠多加去注意因為現在這樣的情況其實非常的多"},{"start":4113.44,"end":4138.951,"text":"我們持續有在注意就是在我們公平法的法規授權範圍之內我們會去關切這個問題有沒有跟我們的公平交易法產生關聯在交易前的時候我們希望消費者是有被充分告知的不會有很多隱藏的一個陷阱那麼在整個如果說消費者要退訂的過程當中的時候呢也不會被限制的過於複雜讓消費者沒有辦法輕易的一個退訂那這個部分的時候我們希望那個"},{"start":4139.671,"end":4167.388,"text":"主委這邊能夠特別的關注因為這對整個消費者的權益來說其實是很重要的一個部分各位報告 那個速發部黃管署他們都消保服務他們針對這個意義其實都有些規定那我最後的部分呢針對那個就3月18號公平會這邊提出的生成式AI競爭政策這個部分嘛那我簡單講一下因為你們在這報告裡面提到了雲端GPU基礎模型應用服務等等不同的領域我想對公平會來講這是同一個市場還是不同的市場"},{"start":4169.441,"end":4187.734,"text":"這取決於我們怎麼去看待這個產業我們在政策聲明裡面有談到我們回收回來的業者的意見普遍認為這個產業未來會走向所謂的生態系進展所以一旦把它視為是生態系的話那很多的個別的服務會整合在同一個模型底下"},{"start":4188.214,"end":4213.767,"text":"那對我們的市場界一定會產生很大的挑戰所以剛剛委員這個問題是很好的問題但是很重要也很困難的問題這個必須要有一些相關的事證做我們後續判斷的基礎是 那我在想說因為整個甚至AI這部分其實可能是未來整個經濟的一個重要的一個趨勢也是消費者很重要的一個趨勢會影響到我們的人類生活非常的大所以針對這個部分我覺得它可能會建立更高的一個壟斷跟門檻"},{"start":4215.208,"end":4230.857,"text":"那既然會有更高的壟斷門檻跟我們的公平會關係就會密切所以我也很高興看到公平會這邊主動公布了這樣的一個政策聲明表示公平會願意來擔起這個責任可是我們也目前看到的時候就說就是"},{"start":4231.397,"end":4256.19,"text":"整個執法的標準還有一些判準感覺都還沒有出來那我們希望這過程當中公平委員能夠更加的積極然後來保障這個甚至是AI所產生的一些消費上面的一個公平性我們會隨時做滾動式的調整會隨著業界的發展來做我們對執法的準備目前這個只是初步我們對市場的理解還有一些初步的執法立場的宣示那我們會持續不斷的進行好 政治部門請繼續加油謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝鄧正淺委員謝謝主委"},{"start":4260.712,"end":4280.688,"text":"待會鄭天才委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘那接下來的話我們請陳庭菲委員質詢謝謝主席我們請公平會主委請公平會主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":4288.952,"end":4316.077,"text":"主委我想今天大家應該都會關心近期因為整個中東的石油危機而衝擊到我們國內的幾家石化供應鏈的部分那麼這當然有包含了塑膠、醫藥包材、肥料、建材等等那我相信這幾天的新聞報的比較大的就是我們的塑膠袋"},{"start":4317.117,"end":4346.169,"text":"我們的塑膠袋你有去了解整個的狀況到底是怎麼了嗎我們有初步去了解整個塑膠袋的產業的現況包含不同的塑膠袋的材質等等各種價格目前我們是有初步了解但是因為這個議題目前就我了解經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我們會積極跟他配合你會積極跟他配合對 如果他那邊有發現任何聯合壟斷的聯合定價的行為我們就會介入調查問題是現在有查到是不願意出貨"},{"start":4347.95,"end":4376.205,"text":"那這算不算聯合壟斷如果他真的有聯合集體拒絕出貨這當然也是聯合行為的一種這也是聯合行為但是我們需要證據就是說如果有發現中牌商如果集體拒絕出貨有這樣的事證這也是聯合行為的一種這你剛剛有說嘛要聯合那如果是一兩家呢因為他的物料夠他可能第一批他買的塑膠原物料夠"},{"start":4378.129,"end":4405.023,"text":"所以他暫時那這樣算不算我們的重點還是在於他們兩極不管是兩家三家或是至少兩家如果這兩家彼此之間有一定的默契有一定的合意說我們利用這個機會暫時就囤積比較多那如果沒有合意呢你找不到他合意的部分呢我告訴你他為什麼要合意因為聯合行為你必須要有合意才能夠發動調查所以這個就是他們現在人家說有花就有花"},{"start":4406.636,"end":4428.064,"text":"你這個重點是合意嘛他們只要不合意你就沒有他的皮條了那我們合意的判斷不是直接要抓到說你們有講好還是可以先根據一些間接的事證來推論間接的事證是什麼我實在對你們公平會沒有什麼信心啦好你如果不是兩方講好你說只要有一些事證"},{"start":4429.244,"end":4446.046,"text":"能夠抓出說他們有合意的狀態這樣也可以好那什麼現象譬如說市場結構是寡占譬如說業者之間彼此之間成本結構差很多但是價格卻調得一致像這種情況都是違反廠商資歷的主委我剛剛已經跟你講了嘛"},{"start":4448.342,"end":4467.228,"text":"因為他這家公司可能他當時候進的塑膠料比較多所以他可以生產的比較多然後呢他知道現在的狀況只要他晚一點晚了一個禮拜你知道那個價格就可以漲很多"},{"start":4468.097,"end":4487.828,"text":"他不用啊 他不用跟你再做合意啊所以我才會講就是說 同業之間理論上要競爭所以假設你生產東西的成本比對方低你為什麼價格要調的跟他一樣這個就是我剛剛講的所謂的間接市政主委這樣你可能不太了解市政 這樣我好高興今天他要賣什麼東西"},{"start":4492.731,"end":4500.724,"text":"如果現在所有的供跟需有落差那個價格自然就跳起來了"},{"start":4501.636,"end":4526.126,"text":"不用他自動喊價他只要耽擱一個禮拜暫時出貨那個價格就自動跳起來了你知不知道這個狀況嗎因為公跟虛有了不一樣的敲敲板價格是會自動跳起來沒錯但是我也可以想一下就是說假設我們在競爭然後我們彼此之間沒有合意我的成本比你低雖然價格同時都跳起來但是我可以不要跳那麼多"},{"start":4527.006,"end":4551.432,"text":"我就可以搶到你的生意啊那你為什麼價格都一樣我告訴你差一個兩塊一塊兩塊有什麼差如果整個都跳起來市場價都跳起來了我們不會完全一致作為合議的標準對嘛假設他的提據是差不多這個就是關鍵嘛對主委難怪你們公平會永遠都查不到永遠也沒辦法查到"},{"start":4552.492,"end":4565.741,"text":"我一直跟你說我發抖了我為什麼會同意我不用同意啊我自然價格全部都跳上來我幹嘛跟你同意然後被你公平會抓到說你們的價格一樣沒有那麼笨的吧"},{"start":4569.448,"end":4590.806,"text":"有那麼笨的嗎我就跟你講在整個供跟需有了不一樣的一個平台那當然價格就自動跳起來啦他只要晚個一個禮拜出貨價格就自然跳起來了不論說你漲了兩塊漲了三塊他都是漲他都是賺的"},{"start":4592.592,"end":4621.025,"text":"所以如果依照你們這樣的標準你永遠查不到我們不會以價格完全一模一樣作為聯合合議的依據啦那只是說我們還是要看看就是說判斷他是不是有合議當然這證據很難找但是我們會用一些間接的事證來推論其中之一就是包含他這樣做是不是理性主委其實我為什麼會用這個議題其實你們每一次都慢半拍慢拍一拍之後你要查都查不到證據"},{"start":4622.813,"end":4642.803,"text":"也查不到資料所以就算有人跟你們檢舉了因為你們說的要有人檢舉嘛你們才會去辦嘛如果沒有人檢舉你們不會去辦嘛好那現在這個整個事實狀況媒體已經爆得亂七八糟了"},{"start":4644.056,"end":4671.394,"text":"已經搞得沸沸揚揚了那到底是因為真的原物料的缺貨還是真的在裝盤商有人故意把它控管因為經濟部已經有這樣的一個聲音出來而且也有查到意識到有這個狀況所以經濟部才要全面去盤查對不對是因為這個原因嘛那你們如果沒有配合的話經濟部盤查有什麼用"},{"start":4674.336,"end":4685.77,"text":"你們要相對的 所以我剛剛所講的 我講的是原因如果依照你們這幾個原則 我跟你說你查沒有啦你絕對查不到的啦"},{"start":4686.727,"end":4710.888,"text":"我們業務單位已經有持續在跟經濟部那邊聯繫啦我們會密切配合經濟部他目前的盤整結果如果真的有所謂的聯合集體出貨拒絕出貨這個當然也是聯合行為啦這個我們會介入講什麼叫聯合拒絕出貨不會啊我又沒有拒絕出貨我只是說我用很多理由嘛晚一點我晚個四天晚個五天晚個一個禮拜"},{"start":4712.625,"end":4730.465,"text":"那請問這叫聯合拒絕出貨嗎我想這個我們在過去我們過去的個案都有處理過啦那我在這邊沒辦法給委員一個統一的標準的答案但是所有的聯合行為的這些問題我們都會在個案裡面根據我們掌握的事實主委我只是希望"},{"start":4732.045,"end":4757.391,"text":"我质询公平会 我已经质询到现在我在经济委员会已经10年了所以每一次跟公平会好像永远在鸡同鸭讲你们永远没有办法站在消费者的角度即使消费者投书了 存情了最后还是不了了之 就是查无实证"},{"start":4758.371,"end":4784.601,"text":"我今天為這麼快的一個時間經濟部已經在查了我們希望公平會要有所態度不要是被動的如果你今天用你剛剛所講的那幾個原因我給你保證你一定查不到因為有發動法現在業者很聰明他不會自己跳入到你們所講的這些"},{"start":4786.565,"end":4801.118,"text":"所謂你們判斷是不是聯合的一些樣態不會所以你們每次都查不到所以我們希望這個部分你知道嗎現在塑膠袋大家"},{"start":4802.459,"end":4820.145,"text":"過去雖然我們一直在檢縮一直在檢縮可是在檢縮到現在還是有些必須要的那這些必須要的到底要怎麼去做然後到底我們要怎麼去抑制 你知道嗎 現在一個塑膠袋多少錢"},{"start":4821.927,"end":4834.273,"text":"這個我沒有不清楚 不清楚嘛而且呢他現在轉嫁到消費者身上以前不用錢的現在要求消費者你一個要多少錢而且價格都往上提高"},{"start":4836.109,"end":4859.2,"text":"所以這整個是一個影響鏈影響鏈然後最終是誰被影響消費者我想委員關鍵我們理解我們都有積極在對市場進行了解還有跟經濟部合作所以我不希望在這個整個中東的一個問題當中最後受傷的是誰受害的是誰是消費者"},{"start":4860.56,"end":4868.591,"text":"我的關鍵在這裡因為一路下來最後他會要求消費者去買這個塑膠袋那當然消費者他需要他就要買啊"},{"start":4875.134,"end":4891.325,"text":"可是轉嫁就是在消費者身上我們不希望在整個我們政府的一個第一時間沒有辦法去控管而導致整個消費者來受害是這樣謝謝主委 拜託一下 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員 謝謝主委接下來我們請這個呂玉玲委員上台質詢 謝謝"},{"start":4911.65,"end":4919.302,"text":"謝謝召委 請工評會的代理主席我們的陳主委陳主委 謝謝"},{"start":4924.264,"end":4943.264,"text":"委員長主委我剛剛延續我們陳委員剛剛問的現在塑膠袋一個多少錢你如果有去調查你怎麼不知道多少錢如果你沒有到市長買東西你說你不知道多少錢那你有責任這調查的責任在公平會你現在把這個責任推給檢舉者去舉證"},{"start":4944.525,"end":4965.542,"text":"那就我們公平會存在的意義沒有了嘛那公平會就廢掉就好啦可以依職權調查啦現在我們到超市去買東西本來說你要提供袋子的話一個是一塊錢現在變成一個人兩塊錢了這是不是漲價你們要去調查公平會主動出擊啊不要等到大家把政經拿到你面前的時候你才說喔 是"},{"start":4967.043,"end":4984.103,"text":"那就公平化不用存在了嘛沒有 但這個議題出現我們就有去了解了解 了解也要知道事實所以所有交代一個多少錢你不知道我現在告訴你了好 我要先問我的議題啦齁 主委去年九月的時候發生了高雄市美濃"},{"start":4985.504,"end":5007.681,"text":"大峽谷這個有不肖的業者去非法的去採石殺石獲取暴利然後讓我們整個傾倒的廢土造成了整個地形跟我們的生態環境的一個破壞所以整個峽谷就形成一個很大的一個坑洞在這邊所以國土署特別為了防止這個違法的棄土"},{"start":5012.344,"end":5041.173,"text":"事件在重演所以在今年的1月1號開始就實施了營建剩餘土石方全流向的管理政策要求砂石車必須安裝GPS的系統並使用這個電子連單來取代這個紙本的這個單據希望能夠掌握到砂石車的行車的這個動向來提升管理的這個功能所以國土署在公布但是"},{"start":5041.693,"end":5066.812,"text":"太過於倉促所以造成整個業界來不及安裝GPS而且全台的土石方堆置處理廠也沒有安排好所以能量處理不足的情況之下供需失衡所以導致了大量的土方在短時間內沒有辦法去消化讓土方的清運成本暴增"},{"start":5068.103,"end":5084.03,"text":"暴增所以根據我們營造業跟建設業他們的估計現在的每立方公尺的土方的這個清理的費用有分北中南北部原來是1800的現在漲到4500中部是800塊的漲到3000元南部的話是280元漲到2000元這幅度大概三到六倍所以請問 主委"},{"start":5095.655,"end":5122.27,"text":"你認為這一波的土方之亂這土方的資源堆置處理業者有沒有趁這個情形而去聯合哄抬價格的這個嫌疑這個就是我們在跟國土署在開會協商的過程當中本會負責就是有沒有聯合哄抬價格那我們在事情一出現以後我們就積極的到市場去了解這個價格的狀況初步的了解是目前的價格並沒有出現一致"},{"start":5122.91,"end":5150.572,"text":"所以剛剛本席把這資料呈現在你前面你說也沒有這漲了三五倍是很正常的委員講的是價格提高幾倍但是我們看的是同業之間的價格有沒有漲得一樣聯合啊所以同業價格是一樣啊假設一個三千塊一個兩千五北中南為什麼價格北中南不一樣主委你有去調查你請教你為什麼不一樣北中南請教你跟這個營運的成本都有關係啊"},{"start":5151.332,"end":5176.201,"text":"為什麼有營業成本不一樣當然政府改成GPS改成電子大家都裝了GPS啊還有什麼不一樣為什麼價格不一樣你有去調查你應該知道這個就跟每個收購方的它的經營的成本還有所涉及到的相關的一樣是土石啊一樣是安置處理廠堆置啊哪裡不一樣為什麼價格不一樣同樣的土石它有不同的價值為什麼它有不同的回收價值為什麼所以價格也可能不一樣"},{"start":5176.641,"end":5185.038,"text":"一樣是泥土啊廢土啊有些土石回來以後可以重新再利用對啊阿有些土石是填海而已主委所以你不了解吧"},{"start":5186.061,"end":5215.601,"text":"你有去調查 我要你了解的為什麼就是距離也是問題啊有的站得比較遠為什麼北部會比較貴因為北部的話都市區域嘛 沒有堆置這個處理廠所以會站得比較遙遠的那個安置這個堆置這個廢土的地方所以距離遠 價格就高嘛南部的話 因為空曠的地方比較多堆置的場所 只要合法的地方會比較容易取得所以這距離的問題 價格就不一樣所以 主委"},{"start":5216.561,"end":5245.364,"text":"我們不要每次都要等到人家檢舉你們才來調查調查的話你就自圓其說自己一套好像不死人間煙火跟民眾的思想思維軌道都不一樣我們民眾大家都認為是空台我們委員接到了很多的陳情報章雜誌登出來了你還說沒有為什麼你們的思維都不一樣呢今天不管是經濟部也好包括著我們的國土署都新聞叫你調查了"},{"start":5246.243,"end":5270.618,"text":"我們跟國安署有開會過我在這地方還是要釐清一件事情我公平會從來沒說價格沒有哄抬我公平會強調的是說你的哄抬是不是聯合的哄抬所以我們的執法重點在於聯合行為的調查你聯合要怎麼樣我們不能去介入價格的合理性價格的合理性我們這個在分工商我們是針對聯合哄抬這部分"},{"start":5272.116,"end":5294.078,"text":"所以我們並沒有說你們公平會總是有一套自圓其說跟我們廣大的民眾的想法都不一樣所以我要請你們去調查不要等到人家檢舉很多事情市場上的出來了包裝雜誌也登出來了鬧轟轟的時候你們可以主動出局嗎你們責任在哪裡我們已經在進行了解跟調查當中了"},{"start":5294.318,"end":5309.391,"text":"所以我們有跟郭杜池在配合調查這麼久現在結果呢?我剛剛跟委員講過初步我們發現了解結果並沒有價格一致的情況所以我告訴你北中南不一樣的情形就是沒有辦法一致會有其他的因素嗎?有沒有聯合一致"},{"start":5310.371,"end":5333.74,"text":"運輸成本也會考慮本席今天會這麼氣憤的是因為你們都不處理我們地方的營造商已經因為這車輛價格再運的土方的價格飆漲的情況之下他沒辦法經營下去他跟政府標到一個標案他願意自動解約被罰幾百萬他也沒辦法再運這個土方"},{"start":5335.121,"end":5346.492,"text":"這個情形都已經發生了 你要到多嚴重的情況之下你才說沒有聯合的情況專科GPS為什麼價格飆漲到三至五倍呢這個請你們嚴格去查一下再來我再問一下"},{"start":5347.898,"end":5364.978,"text":"就是不實的廣告也是我們公平會的業務之一對不對不實的廣告就是頭尾都不一樣不實的廣告就是有欺騙嘛引導消費者不了解而去購買到不一樣的或去消費到不一樣的東西對不對"},{"start":5366.3,"end":5390.787,"text":"是不是你們的業務是啊不實廣告所以本席在這邊要請教一下那因為我們公平會對於商品的標示跟價格的訊息跟各種的這個宣傳內容都有浮誇不實的情況之下違法情形之下我們公平會都會來處理是屬於我們的業務範圍那本席在這邊想請教如果一部影片"},{"start":5391.787,"end":5404.873,"text":"前導片與正片嚴重的出入不一樣的話算不算不死廣告我想這個案子因為最近才剛出來是不是允許我先問你我的問題先回答前導片跟正片如果完全不一樣連演員都不一樣"},{"start":5413.057,"end":5430.673,"text":"針對這個問題我兩點做一下說明第一點就是說前導片跟電影本身算不算是個別前導片算不算廣告後面的電影本身是內容還是說前導片本身實質上是整個影片的一部分這個我們後續會去了解一下到底是怎麼情況那即使前導片是具有廣告的性質"},{"start":5431.634,"end":5450.649,"text":"那剛剛委員有講到廣告是會誤導消費者去做出消費的決定那接下來問題就是說那前導片是怎麼樣去誤導消費者去相信他要去看這部影片這個問題的調查就會涉及到很多觀眾的主觀上的評價也許在前導片裡面我想要看到這個他要看到那個每個人是不一樣的這個我們都需要進一步去了解"},{"start":5451.949,"end":5474.578,"text":"請聽我 你都沒有注意聽我發問的問題我是告訴你前導片跟正片所有的劇情 角色 內容 演員都不一樣這有沒有算不實不一樣啊就是剛剛我跟委員講的嘛是不是這個不是觀眾的主觀意思欸你的劇情 你的演員前導片跟正片都不一樣還要怎麼樣叫主導意思啊"},{"start":5475.018,"end":5488.452,"text":"據我們初步的了解 前導片有時候是一個創造氛圍所以是不是一定前導片裡面所談的一定會在後續的影片中出現這個就是我們要去盡力不忍前導片告訴你澳洲有劉德華演結果正片裡面沒有劉德華 算不算不死"},{"start":5489.776,"end":5508.034,"text":"呃 這個我們要去了解 因為前導片是不是沒有 前導片是不是一定百分之百完全全部落入到後面的影片當中這個可能要請問相關業者的了解才知道主委 你好像真的是跟我們民眾的思維不太一樣喔前導片就屬於是個預告片"},{"start":5508.915,"end":5535.805,"text":"預告我現在的正片的內容最精華的再要出來給民眾看民眾覺得有吸引他他就會來這個消費會到戲院去看正片這個是這樣子的叫預告片怎麼可以這個預告片 前導片跟正片不一樣你還無法判斷我真的不曉得主委你的思維是怎樣我想這一點我們會後我們會去進一步了解到底這兩者之間的關係是什麼好 那我們現在"},{"start":5537.125,"end":5560.446,"text":"你現在講到這邊 我就告訴你 給你調查比較正確的方向就是有一部影片 叫《凌日攻擊》我們不講它的內容有沒有偏頗或者意識形態我們以戲劇的角色跟情節有沒有缺乏邏輯性跟合理性在網路上 已經很多很多的民眾都說批評它這個都不死 演員都不一樣我強調再強調 演員不一樣"},{"start":5564.269,"end":5589.104,"text":"劇情內容的角色也不一樣所以我們希望我們諸位在這個片子裡面你一定要給廣大的消費者給個一正四聽啦如果是這樣子的片子喔未來很多影片都會出來前導片就叫做預告片希望諸位你們都要主動出擊我們真的很用心良苦一再一再這麼講每次大家為什麼執行公平會的時候沒有人要來執行"},{"start":5590.97,"end":5603.17,"text":"真的 就像陳維也講的 雞同鴨講我們跟你講的那個對焦 那個軌道好像都不一樣啊我們民間生活不死人間煙火民眾的反應跟你的反應會不一樣啊"},{"start":5604.629,"end":5632.866,"text":"請公平會把你們責任擔當拿出來好不好不要從外民眾來舉證你才去查證不管是我們的行政部門查證之後的話你才做事證實事了你才是事你們責任擔當都沒有請公平會自己要加油一點我們會回歸去了解教長好 謝謝劉營委員請公平會主動出席從天龍國落入凡間好不好"},{"start":5634.175,"end":5644.473,"text":"好 接下來我們請這個張家俊委員質詢主席我想請代理主委來請代理主委"},{"start":5650.476,"end":5665.582,"text":"陳主委 委員長那現在中東戰火未歇而且不曉得還要再打多久那連帶影響國內物價現在菜市場一斤透明的塑膠袋已經從20元漲到25元這件事情陳主委知道嗎我知道"},{"start":5671.184,"end":5687.819,"text":"那你現在有什麼因應的辦法呢我們已經有進入初步先去了解一下整個這個市場的狀況包含塑膠袋的類型價格等等各方面資訊那因為我也知道現在經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我現在就問你你不要講經濟部我現在就問你公平會"},{"start":5691.682,"end":5718.017,"text":"現在有一些都缺貨了那代理主委既然有注意到你們有去主動調查說是不是有惡意囤積或者是有哄抬物價的這個監督機制呢從公平會角度來看如果是聯合的惡意拒絕出貨這個就是構成聯合性貨你有去查嗎我們現在正在調查我現在就嚴重懷疑說公平會你是人手不足嗎我們不管問你什麼你都是被動的都沒有任何事是值得你主動去調查嗎"},{"start":5719.258,"end":5740.053,"text":"沒有 這個像這個塑膠我們就主動有去調查只是因為現在經濟部所以你們現在已經主動在調查我主動在瞭解那你們現在有任何調查的跡象或結果嗎現在還在瞭解跟調查當中就像剛剛跟大家講我們調查的重點還是在於這個有沒有聯合拒絕出貨這個需要有點時間來蒐集是不是有這樣的事證我的意思是說如果你"},{"start":5740.914,"end":5767.177,"text":"主動調查可能還要再加上一些積極度因為如果你沒有迅速的掌握狀況的話等你調查完成這個事情搞不好也已經結束了船過水無痕所以我也希望說陳主委我想每一個委員都對你充滿期待希望說公平會能夠扮演好公平會存在的意義而不是一個只是好像買保險的單位"},{"start":5768.658,"end":5789.958,"text":"就是有也可以沒有也可以 你知道嗎所以我現在再提醒一下諸位請問有注意到說日本的衛生紙之前就有因為民眾在網路上PO文然後引發恐慌那本席擔心類似的事件假設發生在台灣公平會有沒有什麼對策呢"},{"start":5791.417,"end":5820.517,"text":"衛生紙如果有聯合烘台價格當然這是公平會要去調查跟了解的那這是不是有假設這有沒有涉及不實的這個烘台價格啊烘台價格就是烘台價格但如果他有不實我不曉得什麼叫不實的所以你的意思是說這不歸公平會管沒有沒有我剛講過聯合烘台聯合定價這個當然是公平會要管那不實廣告是不實廣告所以就是你的意思是說像這種引發恐慌的事情呢"},{"start":5821.943,"end":5838.319,"text":"不歸公平會管是這個意思嗎?就是說衛生紙搶扣啊沒有衛生紙啦這都不歸你管沒有 引發恐慌如果是基於業者集體之間的一種杯葛或是拒絕從事教育特別囤貨聯合起來做的話這當然是公平會要處理的聯合問題那你有密切在觀察這個事情嗎?我們都隨時都有在觀察這關民生物資我們平常都會注意到那個價格的波動"},{"start":5846.807,"end":5869.344,"text":"對啊其實我也還蠻擔心公平會的不管問你們什麼你們感覺都好像在另一個平行世界裡面就是沒有辦法理解我們在跟你溝通的一些內容那我再問就是前年Uber宣布要以9.5億美元收購Full Panda台灣的業務那時候公平會耗時了200"},{"start":5873.428,"end":5892.984,"text":"25天那最後以防止壟斷唯有禁止了雙方結合結果這個禮拜呢換成東南亞的外送龍頭Grab要以6億收購Full Panda那從公平會專業的角度來看這兩起收購案相同與不相同之處在哪裡呢"},{"start":5893.504,"end":5903.916,"text":"因為這個案子還沒送進本會所以我現在初步的了解就是說有什麼一樣跟不一樣最大的不一樣是上個案子如果結合完成以後事實上就會高達九成"},{"start":5904.929,"end":5932.067,"text":"那這個案子完成結合以後還是維持兩家大的外送平台存在所以這是它最大的在市場結構上的不同如果真的要去看它的不同的地方的話是但是呢本席要提醒公平會注意一個關鍵背景Uber早在2018就將東南亞的業務賣給了Grab然後換取了一定比例的持股我想可能主委我知道你知道嘛"},{"start":5933.007,"end":5948.641,"text":"你清楚的話那你覺得說直到今天Uber能持有Grab約13%的股份是最大的股東喔換句話說Uber雖然沒有親自收購成功但是卻由他持股的公司來買"},{"start":5949.502,"end":5964.531,"text":"而且這個持股公司他還是最大的股東我並沒有說有任何預設的立場我只是希望說那公平會這一次會怎麼樣判定Grab的營業獨立性然後會考量這層關係嗎"},{"start":5966.432,"end":5991.116,"text":"我想分析的架構大概跟上次那個案子那個整個法律的架構是一樣的那這個案子我想剛剛委員所談到的那個持股的部分這個也是我們後續在審查會去判斷的不過附帶跟委員講一下這個13%是他持股但是持股對公司的控制跟影響因為他持股的類型不太一樣我現在只是在提醒你所以你有在考量這一層關係就非常好"},{"start":5991.696,"end":5998.263,"text":"那我們再深入看Grab跟Uber 2018那次交易當時新加坡的這個競爭與消費委員會就對他們的交易案重罰了1300萬的新幣那兩家公司呢"},{"start":6007.012,"end":6015.965,"text":"成為利益共同體導致競爭誘因消失了那新加坡隨即出現了運費上漲獎勵縮水的狀況那所以呢我也希望說公平會要審慎考察那"},{"start":6023.014,"end":6048.348,"text":"當然我不是有任何預設立場我希望公平會在整個審查的過程當中要廣納各界的意見設想各種可能必須針對消費者的權益跟市場的結構做出最有利的決定請教主委能做到嗎我想這個剛剛委員提到這一點都是我們在審查過程會去注意到了就跟如同上一次的案子一樣我們一定會多聽各方面的意見"},{"start":6049.639,"end":6072.677,"text":"那現在本席擔心的就是說假設未來Foodpanda真的被Grab收購了你們也同意了他的收購哪一天Grab在台灣也採取相同的模式宣布這個退出台灣市場然後把業務交給Uber那那個時候台灣的外送市場不就徹底失去了競爭只剩下一家獨大公平會有考慮過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":6074.238,"end":6095.764,"text":"如果這個可能性發生 那就變成是回到兩家變一家的情況嗎是啊 所以這是一個簡單的經濟邏輯如果兩個競爭對手他背後的大股東其實是重疊的那他們在市場上就不會有強烈的動力去彼此競爭他們不需要聯合漲價喔他們只需要聯合不促銷 不折扣"},{"start":6096.704,"end":6123.691,"text":"是不是無法可乏這個就回到委員剛剛關切那個13%的問題那個13%的控制有沒有辦法強到讓對方完全亦步亦趨配合他的作為所以我就想請主委一定要針對這種有可能隱性的聯合行為做密切的觀察那最後提醒主委就是根據資策會的統計2025年曾使用外送服務的消費者比例"},{"start":6124.631,"end":6149.216,"text":"大概是有上千萬人在使用這個外送服務那公平會作為市場的守護者那本席也期許你們的決定可以做到店家有生意消費者權益有保護然後平台能夠維持競爭的多元局面有信心嗎委員關鍵問題都是我們在審查裡面會特別注意的好 加油謝謝"},{"start":6152.247,"end":6158.989,"text":"好 那謝謝張家軍委員的質詢 謝謝主委接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢好 謝謝趙偉有請主委 有請陳主委"},{"start":6188.258,"end":6206.782,"text":"這個有關今天的報告裡面你們的報告特別提到執行公平教育法以多層次傳銷管理法這裡面你們提到114年總共這個受理調查專案的3820件"},{"start":6209.366,"end":6235.119,"text":"然後結案的包含上年底未結的案件加起來是3978件這麼多的案件裡面經過行政處分的169件這比例不算高啦這個金額6106萬元比例不算高當然要看案情整個受理的狀況"},{"start":6237.349,"end":6260.376,"text":"我們看這個我一再強調的是公平教育法25條事業亦不得為其他足以影響教育志氣之欺妄或顯示公平之行為尤其是這個欺妄這個部分在你的報告裡面整個報告裡面有提到這個"},{"start":6262.062,"end":6283.7,"text":"你們處分的類型,好幾種類型,件數好像是16件吧那跟七網行為,我只列了這個,這是你們的報告裡面跟七網行為有關的就兩件而已,只有兩件而已那因為為什麼要去強調這個部分呢"},{"start":6287.23,"end":6294.295,"text":"我們看這個警政署的統計通報到114年9月17號投資詐欺被害1.9萬人佔超過3乘5這麼多的人數以及比例投資詐欺的部分35.14"},{"start":6313.561,"end":6318.084,"text":"比例35.14%如果加上假網路拍賣也是買賣買東西13.10%然後一般購物我也稱買賣一般購物的詐欺也是跟這個交易有關係8.57%"},{"start":6337.937,"end":6355.948,"text":"這個比例整個加起來三種類型加起來的話56.81%這個比例是相當高的所以這個回過頭來要請公平會這個3978件的結案件裡面跟欺網行為或是投資詐騙"},{"start":6368.003,"end":6395.92,"text":"有關的到底是哪些有多少件而這些多少件裡面是己證不足呢還是什麼原因因素所以就沒有被處罰這個部分自己回去去檢視了如果現在有之外當然可以答覆我先簡單跟委員說明一下有關詐騙的部分這個在行政院我們是有一些分工"},{"start":6396.62,"end":6419.322,"text":"所以剛剛委員談到這些詐騙的行為很多都是刑事的詐欺案那這些部分可能就是由法務部那邊處理所以公平會對於詐騙的部分我們大概是試詐跟阻詐那阻詐的部分我們其實主要還是在針對譬如說用不實廣告的方式來誤導消費者那這部分我們就會積極的解讀那另外剛剛委員談到的就是他那個欺網的情態是"},{"start":6420.342,"end":6448.082,"text":"就是跟公益團體跟政府部門去掛名其實是沒有那這類型案子我們是有處理過那委員所關切大部分的這個投資詐騙等等大部分的案子都是屬於就是不是公平會在處理的案子這樣那個這是公平會非常多次的回覆的回應都是這樣認為只要涉及到刑事案件就是"},{"start":6449.198,"end":6477.98,"text":"就是法務部這是錯的這是錯的因為它畢竟它是交易所以我才會說如果你認為你按照現行的法例你管不到那就要修法我多次提到要修法要以時計進畢竟這個詐騙案件多因為現在你說法務部靠誰呢法務部就只有靠警政署"},{"start":6478.871,"end":6506.793,"text":"警察那已經是罪莫端了已經被騙了所以這個部分再怎麼前面的防範對不對前面的防範最重要那已經被騙了錢已經被騙了已經到警政署已經是被騙了當然還有很多警察都前面就前面阻止被詐騙也做了不少"},{"start":6508.148,"end":6514.922,"text":"也做了不少媒体都有报道所以这个怎么样互相合作共同的来去"},{"start":6517.703,"end":6546.204,"text":"減少這些被詐騙 尤其是跟這個交易有關的 跟教育有關的部分這個我還是要勉勵 還是要拜託啦 拜託這個公平會我想在避免這一塊 避免這一塊我們其實也都積極在做剛剛跟委員報告過 市詐也是我們的任務之一啦所以我們會帶我們業館的這個相關的事業裡面我們去宣導不要被網路上這些虛假的消息所誤導"},{"start":6547.265,"end":6574.714,"text":"是所以這部分我們實際上也在做因為基本上我剛列舉的這些像投資就是交易所以這個部分你要到法務部那個是最後已經最後了已經被騙了那前面怎麼樣能夠去防範那更重要所以這個部分共同的這個不同的機關大家一起來努力來去減少真的是真的是這是我們"},{"start":6575.774,"end":6582.754,"text":"目前台灣最重要的一個部分之一了好不好好我們接下來"},{"start":6584.451,"end":6609.587,"text":"在你的報告裡面也有提到運作本會防治人為操縱物價專案小組裡面有對農畜儀產品小麥、麵粉、黃豆、沙油、桶裝瓦斯等等這些你們去做這樣相關的這些民生物資價格及市場變化進行監測這個部分你們都在進行了"},{"start":6610.827,"end":6626.299,"text":"我想要你也請公平會議去了解我們剛有提到統裝瓦斯我看全國家用統裝瓦斯的軍價查報的軍價這個從去年2025年10月之後一直往上"},{"start":6636.438,"end":6655.104,"text":"一直往上,2025年10月之後一直往上到2026年1月還要繼續往上所以這個部分也去了解一下到底是怎麼樣的因素因為那時候還沒有中東的戰爭"},{"start":6659.214,"end":6683.702,"text":"對不對2025年10月還沒有這個戰爭所以不是因為這個油的問題也不是因為這些相關的這些跟瓦斯有關的那個部分所以這個部分是是需要去了解好不好跟委員報告一下我們有觀察到這樣的趨勢事實上業務單位都持續密切在注意當中那如果有聯合烘台聯合定價我們會去積極的進入調查"},{"start":6685.262,"end":6699.416,"text":"好 好 加油因為這個調高偏遠地區會更高偏遠地區會更高好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝主委我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":6727.5,"end":6743.327,"text":"我們現在是不小心為了進行的情況而出席的,幾個都不知道要怎麼做,拿藥給小朋友去接受,外人呢?新委員會出席嗎?對,我們就請新委員出席,因為新委員應該今天在議會會有說明,但是院長是不信任。"},{"start":6758.531,"end":6777.066,"text":"其他列行的單位不可能要這麼多人這樣請問請問是要包含這麼多人因為一般應該都是首席喔是喔是喔但不是說在那邊開會的人因為他才能夠知道整個過程"},{"start":7061.044,"end":7061.125,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7142.919,"end":7143.383,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":7281.476,"end":7310.503,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7325.302,"end":7328.986,"text":"好 繼續開會 接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢主席 在場委員先進 列席的政府局長 市長 官員 會長 工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生 那麼有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":7357.522,"end":7376.976,"text":"主委好最近你常常被問到公平會就是要問到說Grab要收購台灣的Hupenda請問一下你知道嗎這個Hupenda的最大股東是Uber嗎我知道他雖然沒有照過一半但是如果Grab跟Uber之間存在著交叉持股那算不算Uber繞道來併購這個Hupenda呢"},{"start":7377.276,"end":7406.09,"text":"所以重點還是在於他掌握的那個13.5的股權是能夠影響到Grab什麼程度是所以強調的是實質的控制力實質控制力對 這個我們會在審查當中注意好但是除了這個之後我們關心的又是下一個就是AI聊天機器人竟然未來可能投放廣告你看媒體報導的很大Chap GPT拓財源要推廣告服務我就很好奇啦Chap GPT要怎麼推廣告服務呢我記得28年前有一個電影叫楚門的世界諸位有沒有看過我有看過"},{"start":7406.83,"end":7433.146,"text":"這裡面的電影呢只有一個人是不知情的其他都是演員對不對包括演他太太的還會在觀眾收看這個直播這個情境實境節目的時候呢會看到他推銷廣告是不是這樣子是好那我們消費者看電影的人看楚門世界的人都知道那個是一個廣告但是只有看的只有楚門自己不知道但是現在的ChipGP電影在今年2月開始試著投放我們來看一下"},{"start":7433.959,"end":7451.553,"text":"我們對這種事情有沒有管制網紅的業配有管制譬如說我這個主委有沒有看過我的直播沒有是正常的因為我的直播實在沒有很多人看連小咖的網紅都稱不上但是你們公評會有對於見證廣告的規範做有沒有要求"},{"start":7452.553,"end":7477.114,"text":"見證型的嘛,你們有做過嗎?因為我每次直播都吃播,我立法院附近買了小吃,邊吃邊說這個好不好吃,這個怎麼樣,立法三寶啊那我是不是專業人士,我至少吃,還算有研究嘛對不對那我有沒有跟他有利益的關係的接入?要啊,如果這個東西要送我的,請他幫我講好話幫他講好話,我要知道說這個鄉親送我這個很好吃的這個什麼米,這個蠻好吃的我們在直播可不可以這樣做?"},{"start":7478.151,"end":7499.392,"text":"可以嘛就是符合這個我們就符合這個嘛所以公民會會審查對不對會 如果這符合這個好啦那現在如果AI用更隱秘更針對性的方式投放我們要看譬如說一般民眾他唱AI去幹嘛資料查詢嘛像去查楚門的世界或者聊天嘛跟聊天機的人講話甚至用它來製作一些影音那"},{"start":7500.679,"end":7528.679,"text":"閱聽者使用者他心裡是怎麼想他說AI至少是中立客觀的對不對他提供了給我的資訊至少是他掌握的資訊雖然有人說深層是AI是一本正經的胡說八道但是至少他應該只是自己胡說八道而已他不會幫人家刻意的去引導幫業主企業主去影響我現在AI的深層是內容如果有廣告組有企業主要求他去做廣告有沒有目前對他的強制介入或標示的規定"},{"start":7529.019,"end":7548.251,"text":"那我也問的問題涉及到兩個問題第一個就是說從公平會執法機關的角度來看我們如何去確認這個廣告是AI做的這個是一個不是 他的意思說你AI接受我的廣告之後你在AI生成的內容上幫閱聽大眾提供更多我要請你提供的資訊嘛"},{"start":7549.051,"end":7559.468,"text":"譬如問他說這個台灣哪裏的紅豆最好吃結果我們萬丹農會有跟AI說我跟你買個廣告你第一個就說屏東萬丹的紅豆最好吃"},{"start":7560.66,"end":7588.965,"text":"可不可以所以我剛剛談的就是說確認AI的意思就是說因為廣告到我們這邊來我們第一次看到的就是廣告那我們要確認說這個廣告是人播的AI提供的真實內容他不會說這是廣告因為你問他嘛所以我們要問的說這個以後會不會產生說只要有大的企業他對這些好往下看這三家最大的真實是AI的平台我說我給你下廣告請你們機器人在回答問題的時候多講我的好話可不可以"},{"start":7589.878,"end":7608.678,"text":"但如果說背後是有人在做這樣的操作的話那當然就是他對AI的訓練就是操作啊所以這個有可能會跟我們的見證廣告是有關係所以這個時候你們去查有沒有企業對這三大平台投放廣告請他們訓練他們的機器人AI機器人要多說他的好話那你們要去查他們對價關係你查得到嗎"},{"start":7610.56,"end":7637.992,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為現在我們從最近開始我們在網路的這個廣告的監控上我們已經加入AI的監測你也用AI來監測嘛不是AI監測是委託我們在監測我們是外包給外面的機關來幫我們做監測用魔法對付魔法對對對然後我們有特別要求他必須要針對AI這件事情來是所以我要告訴你說這三大平台如果開始接受業主投放廣告的時候我們問AI的問題可能背後你就要就查清楚他有沒有這個問題尤其這個平台如果是寡戰呢"},{"start":7638.712,"end":7664.229,"text":"他的演算法是黑箱呢譬如說科技巨頭他掌握這三大平台我中小店家沒有地方可以投放廣告因為只有你們三個AI嘛所以我的廣告溢價權就一面倒嘛你說我要投放廣告多少錢就多少錢我要推銷萬丹的紅豆你說這個要兩百萬我拿不出兩百萬我就不能推銷萬丹的紅豆 是不是這樣子是 我們會在公平法的架構還有在處理原則裡面去做進行調查好 那再往下看那其實還有一個叫LINE"},{"start":7665.219,"end":7691.79,"text":"LINE其實也不過是一個 你會說聊天軟體嗎可是你知道它台灣的一個滲透率多少嗎99.7%耶 是所有最高的耶你可以再增加什麼它是台灣的超級平台什麼時候呢 它可以幫你做社交聯絡還可以貼圖禮物 還有金融服務還有電子支付 LINE Pay還有商業應用 還有影音漫畫還有甚至連視訊醫療現在衛福部建立的跨醫生視訊醫療如果你派到好愛工作了兩年"},{"start":7692.31,"end":7717.263,"text":"可是你這時候要回來看醫生 或者說你慢性病處房間三個月到期了你可以怎麼辦 你可以在海外利用當地的聯網 然後透過LINE然後連接中華電信 然後去跟台灣的醫院看病拿藥LINE很厲害耶 是不是這樣可是我們有辦法避開嗎 現在你可以避開生活中 避開LINE嗎你就算避得開 你周邊的人避不開啊那它是不是構成了壓倒性的優勢 是不是構成了獨佔"},{"start":7719.568,"end":7749.268,"text":"我想剛剛委員講的是正確就是社交至少在這個生態系當中當然LINE是以它的社交這個平台作為一個支點然後延伸到生態系各部分不過我們要注意的就是說在這樣的生態系當中LINE在不同的服務當中的市場力量是不一樣不是的就是因為它在每個個別的市場你都很難針對這個來說它沒有一個壟斷或壓倒性但是你在生活中LINE已經幾乎無所不包了我要用戶最多轉換的成本很高你現在叫我不要用LINE用別的我還受不了"},{"start":7749.688,"end":7774.874,"text":"還有他掌握了隱私資訊工程會要去想所以我們會看看是不是他利用這個社交聯絡的力量去做一個槓桿去把力量延伸到其他各位我們另外一個叫有線電視播放系統其實我們過去台灣為什麼有線電視的地方系統台他是把它當作準公用事業因為跟這個很像LINE的資訊流是不是要靠網路基礎設施政府提供嘛LINE有建制嗎沒有啊金流跟店家個人還有金融體系的金流"},{"start":7775.454,"end":7795.446,"text":"這也是我們政府的資訊網絡去提供的啊那政府在有限電視播放系統類似它的情況之下政府去進入管理喔 介入喔所以我們有限系統的執照是什麼進入政府特許的嘛因為它具有準公用事業的性質我們往下看所以公平教育委員會目前你是對不公平競爭對廣告不實你當個裁判吹哨對不對"},{"start":7796.286,"end":7817.98,"text":"但是未來如果有哪一個類似像LINE這樣的超級平台他有壓倒性的優勢他能掌握絕大多數人的隱私數據他還發展多元的業務公平的解放是什麼你還能純粹在那個裁判的角度來吹哨還是必須要為了確保這個公平競爭類似像高鐵的模式政府要不要入股來協助他的公司治理"},{"start":7819.051,"end":7837.628,"text":"我想委員提的這些問題都很前瞻啦但是這個可能在很多面向是跟公平會目前現在的執掌是不太符合的你目前還是裁判吹哨啊我們是事後的一個監管組我了解所以當你在監管這些之後事後監管你發現他有這個趨勢的時候其實公平會不只要吹哨做判決"},{"start":7838.684,"end":7862.855,"text":"還要吹哨做市警要告訴政府 告訴社會如果深層式AI它可以接受大企業投放廣告影響到它深層的內容來給使用者的話那公平會要趕快的去了解有沒有能力用你的魔法來對付它的魔法好不好是 是 這個我們持續再精進好 那最後一個是問了一下人家都問也不能不問"},{"start":7863.655,"end":7868.67,"text":"目前通貨商說上游不供貨 诶 諸位啊 這會不會有藉機囤貨 烘台的可能啊"},{"start":7869.209,"end":7896.833,"text":"因為像刑法251條這是法務部的執照公平教育法當然如果囤積漲貨這個東西如果說有聯合壟斷的情形當然我們公平法也可以介入這個所謂價格的波動當然25條影響教育秩序在過去我們用這個條文處理物價的問題大部分都是在一個緊急狀態緊急狀態我們會就是事關民生重大的產品所以我今天提供這個機會就是說要分清楚"},{"start":7897.293,"end":7913.167,"text":"如果是延後出貨 那個囤貨過於烘台 那是屬於刑法251 法務部去管那如果他透過聯合行為 立即的造成明顯的提高那才用到公交法的25條 有不一樣的分工那給你一個機會跟他說明 最後"},{"start":7913.988,"end":7930.458,"text":"署章 希望你嚴審這個併購案保護我們的外送員跟所有用戶的權益好不好是 這個一定我們會強行檢查好 那另外呢是不是要比照你們的見證廣告的規範趕快去想要訂出深層式誒 誠又寫錯了深層式AI廣告的法規好不好"},{"start":7931.098,"end":7959.732,"text":"這個我們會後再進行一個月內是不是可以就LINE是不是有具有壓倒性的優勢這個描述提出你們的書面報告讓我們知道在你們的公平會的眼中這個市場中LINE是不是個超級平台也具有壓倒性的優勢這個沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝鍾嘉斌委員前瞻性的質詢我覺得公平會要跟上這個樣子的科技的速度好接下來的話呢我們請謝一鋒委員質詢"},{"start":7969.755,"end":7973.89,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請公平會的代理主委陳主委"},{"start":7982.087,"end":7992.27,"text":"陳主委早大家都問到了就是Grab的問題因為Uber有13.05還是13.05的股權當然從股權的角度來看它也沒有到整個完全擁有"},{"start":8003.459,"end":8026.343,"text":"那但是為什麼大家在討論他現在只有宣布而已我相信也還沒送你們公平會吧還沒還沒還沒送嘛對不對可是未來會不會他未來如果真的就是說要實施併購的時候會不會送公平會需不需要根據什麼法律目前的情況看起來是一定要送"},{"start":8027.079,"end":8040.412,"text":"因為市佔率市佔率 對他們兩家加起來市佔率多少沒有 依照我們公平法的規定目前市佔率只要超過一定門檻就一定要進回來審查那目前這個Food PandaFood Panda已經超過了Food Panda超過了對對對"},{"start":8042.23,"end":8066.296,"text":"他已經超過四分之一了市佔率他已經超過四分之一了所以這個案子如果他們真的要進行購併的話一定要送到公平會來所以未來他一定要送公平會來審理那你公平會怎麼審查呢怎麼樣子來審查哪一條法律來確保我們消費者不會喪失選擇權嗎因為有可能如果Uber"},{"start":8067.336,"end":8084.897,"text":"你也知道嘛過去曾經Uber也想要併購Foodpanda結果沒有成功嘛那時候大家擔心的就是消費者喪失選擇權以及有可能導致的就是說聯合的這個外送的費用的問題那這要怎麼處理"},{"start":8086.058,"end":8113.384,"text":"這個我想跟我們上一個案子的整個的分析的架構是一樣的那剛剛委員提到的問題其實都是我們會審查的我們會去觀察結合以後那個市場結構的改變會不會導致這個結合後的事業有能力去漲價把價格抬得很高那當然結合以後會不會讓兩大平台更有機會去進行聯合所以剛剛委員關切的議題其實都是我們審查的時候會去注意對我是說因為畢竟過去Uber就已經要賓購Fupenda那再加上現在Grab"},{"start":8114.784,"end":8138.211,"text":"但是你也要必須要考慮喔因為現在他不是用Uber去併購福盆島嗎他是用Grab那Grab他的行為模式以及他的這個機制是不一樣的喔是不是我看到他是他們的定價我在新加坡的時候有用過Grab"},{"start":8138.911,"end":8156.897,"text":"他們的定價會即便是相同的距離也有可能是不同的價格他們根據的是GeoHash這樣子的系統然後把每一個地區變成一個小區塊然後按照小區塊的供需的這個模式來決定他定價的方式"},{"start":8157.557,"end":8175.162,"text":"謝謝委員提醒像這種比較特殊的定價模式我們在分析過程裡面會納入考慮特別是在於結合以後這個事業它有沒有能力任意去漲價這個地方定價的模式還有過去所造成的它也許不是在就是說抽成上面或者是什麼"},{"start":8175.762,"end":8203.613,"text":"可是他運用的反而是一個APP他計算的方式以及他們演算時候所產生的這樣子的一個計價方式那你怎麼樣子去進行你們現在公平會裡面有沒有相關的專業可以去進行這個審查以及未來公平會怎麼樣子在審查的過程當中藉由會不會需要勞動部"},{"start":8205.814,"end":8229.376,"text":"或者是其他部會共同來聯合審查然後來確保我們外送就是外送員的相關的權利呢這個案子因為備受矚目所以我們一定會廣增各方面的意見包含主管機關還包含業者包含消費者團體等等我們會綜合考慮那有一些技術面的東西我們可能更由不排除我們可能必須要專家學者的協調"},{"start":8230.016,"end":8259.379,"text":"這已經是更技術面了它不是從就是說契約上面來講這個外送員的就是說聯合的這個問題那它用不同的演算的方式會不會造成就是說變相的我們消費者就喪失了選擇權然後呢變相的我們的外送費用就增加了以及我們的外送員的勞動權益就受損了"},{"start":8259.639,"end":8280.006,"text":"是不是等案子送進來以後我們在分析過程當中委員所關切這個問題我們都會把它納入考慮當然剛剛如同我剛剛所講的有些技術性的問題我們是必須要依賴外面的協助所以像學者專家這個我們都會爭議所以你們要技術人員的協助嘛對不對有些比較技術性像數位演算法這些東西也許可能要一些專家學者來提供一些意見"},{"start":8280.626,"end":8304.345,"text":"好 還有另外一個問題就是如果Fupenda就是由我們所有消費者的這些消費行為跟金流的數據那未來GREP它不是在台灣而它是在一個就是境外在台灣是沒有實體總部的這樣子的一個情況下那我們怎麼樣進行"},{"start":8305.606,"end":8323.48,"text":"如果委員關切的是資料的隱私保護的部分這部分可能不是屬於公平會去處理的問題不是你們處理但是未來審查的時候會不會有介入共同來討論這一點我們會從競爭的觀點去看看他對隱私權保護的夠或不夠到底對市場競爭會產生什麼影響"},{"start":8324.821,"end":8340.463,"text":"所以你們不會就這個部分我們不會直接去看說你接了以後你是不是對隱私權的保護就會比較鬆散所以這個東西你們不會看這個我們不會去介入所以這個東西可能還需要數位部或者是其他的相關部會共同來審查嘛是不是"},{"start":8341.024,"end":8360.275,"text":"如果未來我們所有人在輔培打上面的數據而外流到因為那有可能是那個什麼GDP定位或者什麼等等的相關的問題那如果未來外流到一個不是在台灣的實體公司的時候那怎麼樣處理"},{"start":8361.596,"end":8381.947,"text":"那就是說剛剛跟委員報告隱私的保護我們大概就不會介入處理因為有其他的主管機關在處理那數據的部分其實跟競爭有可能會產生一些關係數據的使用數據的濫用來排斥競爭這個其實競爭法是可以來介入的當然如果有這樣的事證的話我們也會介入去處理所以你們會就數據數據的濫用所導致市場競爭的減損或限制我們如果有這種事證的話我們會介入調查好那"},{"start":8388.612,"end":8401.211,"text":"現在大家討論的就是行政院他宣誓下游不屯那你們說你們只是就聯合什麼樣子叫聯合因為一般的民眾認為當"},{"start":8403.955,"end":8432.77,"text":"這個塑膠袋的情況下那什麼樣子叫聯合什麼樣子只是暫時的囤積在這我相信你們參加了整個物價的這個穩定的你們都是在那個物價穩定平台裡面嘛是那怎麼樣子處理這一塊呢基本上那個平台是分工的啦我們的角色主要就是聯合那當然什麼叫聯合聯合就是同業之間有某一種形式的合意集體的 譬如說集體拒絕出貨這個其實也是聯合行為"},{"start":8434.45,"end":8462.143,"text":"你覺得現在有沒有這樣的情況這個需要市政的調查那調查市政需要一點時間那需要多久因為有時候市政調查這個情況就是說消費者已經面臨到這個情況有點緩不濟急但是目前我們已經跟經濟部在密切的配合如果看他們盤查的結果那同時我們也在自己有進行市場的了解那如果有初步的市政顯示似乎有聯合的情況出現的話我們就會立案調查所以現在你們還需要多少時間"},{"start":8463.667,"end":8470.917,"text":"因為這個事件剛我們現在目前正在了解當中你們需要多少時間"},{"start":8473.171,"end":8497.291,"text":"因為我們現在是調查資料中 還要等業者提供資料過來所以這目前很難給委員一個確確的對啊 因為人家美國說很快就那個中東衝突就結束了嘛你總不能在中東衝突結束前都沒有一個結果還是你們估計你們有內部的資料顯示中東的衝突是超過4到6個禮拜6到8個禮拜是不是6個月以上"},{"start":8500.954,"end":8507.337,"text":"我會盡快啦所以你們可以慢慢做不會慢慢做啦我們一定積極地去調查那什麼時候給給大家一個交代盡量在四個月內可以嘛四個月內做個調查應該要早一點吧四個月內說不定戰爭都結束了因為有時候跟業者要資料他回來我們要研析而且最重要的是說我們要經過委員會還有委員會的討論"},{"start":8530.233,"end":8541.478,"text":"你至少要三個月吧好不好三個月這沒有很勉強啦三個月沒有很勉強啦我們盡量朝三個月來做了好不好好謝謝謝玉峰委員三個月內現在請洪玉祥委員進行詢問"},{"start":8560.78,"end":8577.906,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委陳主委好 那早上我聽了很多我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大尤其碰到我們這種科技利益你可能會更難過一點"},{"start":8579.502,"end":8606.363,"text":"那第一個問題這個傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下因為剛剛委員很多問了很多那我想我就不再贅述基本上來講我倒是覺得不管你是這個塑料農產包材這些的漲價就是我延緩出貨形成這樣子的我買不到這個塑膠袋甚至這裡頭還要擴展到醫材的問題"},{"start":8608.985,"end":8631.792,"text":"另外包含剛剛我聽到這些的土方之亂這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛所以我這邊我就不再贅述那我希望主委的話就是儘快主動出擊就是說有時候你應該也可以學學金管會你要等到他發函去然後廠商再把資料調回來那都太慢了"},{"start":8632.552,"end":8656.814,"text":"苦民所苦你就去喝喝咖啡喝喝可樂也可以就你用什麼方式去讓民眾有這個感受我是覺得施政者對不對我們作為一個政府要的事情那我就要跟主委討論的是說當我們這個數位經濟AI這樣子的一個技術進來的時候其實你的dictation就是你的偵測"},{"start":8658.775,"end":8680.693,"text":"法規這其實這個難度越來越高所以我是覺得你們可能要這個逢高計軌日夜不停的一個工作我現在跟各位談的一個問題是說當然我們在公平會不管是寡占聯合的漲價等等這些議題可是呢以前人的話呢你可能還會透過什麼電話"},{"start":8682.694,"end":8692.311,"text":"透過訊息 透過信件 對不對甚至像以前我們在這個科技業的話 面板 對不對在托拉斯的這個法案 反托拉斯這個法案的時候"},{"start":8693.397,"end":8714.952,"text":"但是現在到了這個數位經濟的一個時代來講的話其實我是透過我的程式碼透過我的模型透過我的數據那這樣子來講的話再把它分成說我是人為去控制還是我這個模型或者是我在學習數字的時候我就達到聯合的拱斷的地步"},{"start":8715.632,"end":8740.82,"text":"我覺得你這個難度是更高所以我是覺得說在法規上我看完你們的那些的報告你也許認為現有的法規可能可以處理但我覺得應該是不太會一樣所以我想是提醒主委在這件事那太難的原因是什麼其實也就是說我們現在的話控制的核心是我的數據就是我的資料我的演算法"},{"start":8741.65,"end":8764.418,"text":"另外的話我價格的制定我也不是用人怎麼樣看法因為我的機器奈米級的速度啪就搞定了然後你的那個共謀的證據也不是這些的信件他可能是到我系統的log對不對我的transaction我的交易甚至我要去比對你的call比對說我API的串聯這整個走下去的時候其實不是人可以處理的"},{"start":8764.958,"end":8780.595,"text":"所以你的工具你的這個法規這個我覺得你們都要拘謹我現在先問一個簡單問題在你們所有的委員當中具有資工跟資訊背景人工智能到底有多少委員在委員的成員當中是沒有"},{"start":8781.656,"end":8799.943,"text":"所以我是覺得也許你可以建議啦這個是值得越來越多我相信他會占到未來以後的一半以上不過我們有個叫做經濟跟資訊市場那個裡面就有一些電腦跟資訊方面的人對 因為我覺得他這個難度是更高道高一尺 謀高一丈所以我就提醒"},{"start":8801.075,"end":8824.074,"text":"因為我今天要跟主委分享討論就是說我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情那我這一塊來講的話主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候其實最左邊介入程度是低也就是說我們兩個共謀完之後然後我們去把它達成漲價合一之後我去調參數所以我們就聯合漲"},{"start":8824.855,"end":8853.497,"text":"那這個當中AI介入程度 裡面AI只是我的工具而已我的這個程式是我的工具但是越往234右邊去越來越難比如說我們來看第二種的類型第二種的類型指的就是我們講的Hub的這個Spock的模式基本上來講的話呢我們這所有的人都去買相同的模型 買相同的這些的演算法來控制我市場的銷售跟這個售價的行為可是"},{"start":8854.971,"end":8875.883,"text":"說實在的我們這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西那結果呢我們用的這個同樣的第三方的演算法達成相同的這樣子的聯合的拱斷的價格那這個在美國是有案例的就像這一個RealPage房租的AI的定價案所以像現在來講他可能都使用RealPage的AI"},{"start":8877.262,"end":8896.778,"text":"然後結果他都是說看起來這同一個區差不多類型所以下去之後價格是高度的一致而且不合理那這個時候來講當然房客去告房東房東才會說我們怎麼都是用相同的然後再慢慢賠償台灣有沒有這樣的問題"},{"start":8898.039,"end":8915.938,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁剛剛委員點出來正確就是那四個模型齁這個國際組織也都在從那四個模型去分析那的確沒錯前面兩個在傳統的架構底下比較可以處理但是等到你到了自主學習的時候那個難度就非常高可是這個還沒到右邊喔這個還在第一我了解我了解這個在台灣有沒有所以"},{"start":8917.419,"end":8938.024,"text":"就台灣有沒有發生我們最近剛發布的AI的那個政策聲明我們從回收回來的意見多數業者是認為還沒有出現這樣的現況但是我們持續有在注意這個問題那你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測的工具還是用什麼樣的方式我們有網路上偵測那個價格波動是不是有出現一致但這很難"},{"start":8938.824,"end":8956.52,"text":"因為你沒有去比如說我們現在都是用這個隨便亂講我都用591出租網可是591出租網的那個模型或定價的模式他假設給我建議的時候那他就有可能會形成這樣的方式那你又不可能去說591出租網你怎麼把他的模型演算法這些東西"},{"start":8957.222,"end":8981.461,"text":"所以跟委員報告一下所以我在之前有談到就是說公平會未來針對AI數位這塊市場必須要趕快強化數位執法能力這個就是我擔心的問題那還有很多比如說像這個就是第三種的類型我用的是CHEP GBP你用的是GIMMA它用的是GLOCK甚至有人用不同的模型但是我們用的是相同的開源的這樣子的資料"},{"start":8983.146,"end":8995.28,"text":"數據對不對比如說我這是所謂的房市教育公開的交易資訊我都是所有這個地區的所得稅的什麼這些申報的資料結果這些模型去學這些數據之後推出一致的結論那這種東西未來"},{"start":8998.664,"end":9025.994,"text":"會怎麼防治所以還是回歸到我剛剛談的就是說我們可能對 forensic就是那個數位的那個實證的解析解剖那一塊對所以我是說你在工具證據政策對吧它全部是另外一套因為你整個證據的保全跟dictator跟dictation這是完全不同那我再附帶講一點就是說目前以我們的法規來講對於特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為目前我們的法規是有一些不足的地方"},{"start":9026.594,"end":9047.707,"text":"就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者所以剛剛委員談到軸扶式的卡特就是共同使用一個那他們可能都不在不同的市場當中所以從法律的要件看起來他們可能不會構成聯合行為所以我目前的修法已經準備要那個條文修正就是不限於水平我現在都是提醒因為我走的比較前瞻一點因為這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多"},{"start":9050.308,"end":9068.578,"text":"所以身為一個科技業我覺得這件事情會對你公平會造成很大的問題當然還有自主學習的部分最後我耽誤一點的這樣的時間來看這件事情就是說在這裡頭我們的併購我想各位委員前面都吞了很多那我覺得這有兩個層次第一個"},{"start":9069.929,"end":9099.452,"text":"GRAVE的後面還是有一些的滴滴出行入資當然這個可能不歸你管這可能是投審會那邊所以你跟投審會經濟部的投審會可能還要再去合作這是第一道第二道比較擔心的事情剛剛很多委員都講過我透過間接的這樣子的一個情境來達到這個不管是剝削我們的外送員或者是商家的這個漲價對不對就是定價把它偏高收費偏高的行為但是我比較擔心說如果撇開這些都是合法"},{"start":9100.134,"end":9120.755,"text":"那因為Uber又是Grab的股東他們兩個之間的模型甚至模型不同也沒關係數據是去做交換的你也是查不到但是他這樣透過一個獨立的個體但是他中間是透過模型跟數據暗通款曲這個我覺得你的難度是更高"},{"start":9121.573,"end":9140.045,"text":"所以我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度不過在證據調查之前的前提就是說假設這個它真的有辦法影響未來的Grab的營運模式那在它的影響底下那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的"},{"start":9140.445,"end":9168.879,"text":"可是我覺得那還是人為啦我覺得還是從技術的角度來講因為畢竟他還是占董事啊董事的話比方說你用我的數據我們兩個交換一下對不對大家來分析客戶的行為定價這常會發生這當然有可能只是說對陸同委員所講的那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個提示我們會持續不斷提醒那最後就是說反正我寫在這邊我希望你們將來對這些的政策定價法規那你會採取什麼措施跑前面一點然後主動一點這樣子"},{"start":9169.96,"end":9189.328,"text":"好不好 好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝洪朝偉的AI壟斷那我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做巡大好 謝主席 請陳主委謝主委"},{"start":9198.622,"end":9218.87,"text":"我有看到你們有做的這個聲明是人工智慧的一個競爭法議題的一個聲明那我首先要肯定我想這個部分諸位上任也積極在做這樣的事情那這個對未來的台灣也相當重要AI包括這些的都是未來全世界的一個趨勢"},{"start":9220.171,"end":9242.999,"text":"台灣也非常重要那但是有幾個我也想要再跟主委這邊提醒的包括你的很多的部分其實事後管制的部分他會遇到很多的問題是已經發生了而後面的處理所以這塊可能也未來也希望公平的我們去思考怎麼樣在事前能夠有一些預防措施而不是到了事後的時候有一些巨大的"},{"start":9243.919,"end":9266.337,"text":"已經產生了以後巨大的影響產生了對市場營造成影響之後那幾乎也是兩手一攤無法解決所以希望未來能夠再請主委也思考怎麼樣在前端的部分做一些處理包括甚至於在變相併購的定義界定的部分甚至於人才的部分怎麼去做更清楚的一個界定讓這件事情更明確那另外還有當然"},{"start":9266.977,"end":9289.907,"text":"台灣也是具有相當潛力那未來這個本土的數據跟整個算力的相關的部分怎麼樣去做更有效我們也希望未來的這一塊公平有更多一些方向跟整個前瞻性的一些做法主委要不要回應一下跟委員報告一下謝謝委員的肯定那委員提到的問題都是我們持續會去觀察跟精進的那在我們的徵詢意見回收的部分其實有兩個共識"},{"start":9291.187,"end":9317.037,"text":"是所有回收意見都支持的其中一個就是說目前的生存式AI甚至整個AI還在發展的初期那背後的動態發展怎麼樣甚至很難預測所以他強烈建議公平回收在目前現在採取低度介入的態度這個就是為什麼我們會覺得說我們還是秉持一個比較事後來監管但是並不表示我們就完全不完全排除那個事前的一些做法我們可能會去看看整個市場的演變"},{"start":9317.577,"end":9340.645,"text":"是不是已經達到很明顯的就是有巨頭在壟斷那也許某一種程度的事先的介入是有必要好這個也跟我們當然面臨到更大的挑戰是我們面對到中國對我們的這個一個專制威權的國家對我們的一個影響那這個部分就其他的不見得民主國家不是遇到這個問題但是在一個威權國家發展他的這個AI過程的時候就有很多"},{"start":9341.085,"end":9368.475,"text":"這塊導致我們必須要很謹慎 如果這個是未來AI是整個長遠的一個國際上的一個趨勢 也是台灣重大的一個未來方向的話 那這一塊可能在未來這塊思考可能要提早來做一些因應是 謝謝韋好 那我們來看一下其實整個在全世界都在發全都在主權AI這塊在推動 所以剛剛也特別提到因為我們跟中國這邊包括語文都是用中文的 甚至於中國他"},{"start":9368.895,"end":9388.468,"text":"我們做過去也看到非常例子他們在他們的AI裡面有設定了很多的一些特定的一些部分那這個未來怎麼樣避免他對台灣之間產生的影響我覺得這塊也值得各部會當然也包括公民會省省去思考這個也是未來我們要面對一個課題好不好 主委這個也是也請回應一下"},{"start":9389.469,"end":9409.768,"text":"這個部分我們在政策聲明裡面有特別談到就是說AI的競爭議題當然本會是主管機關但是有很多的大家關切的議題未必是競爭可以去處理的就像委員所談到要發展主權AI這個比較偏向於國家的產業發展政策我知道事發部或是政府有一些思考這可能會有一些補貼"},{"start":9410.469,"end":9413.231,"text":"那接下來我請教一下之前我也談過很多次蘋果稅的部分在2021年的時候也已經立案了調查了那事實上這個部分主委有更新的一個進度嗎"},{"start":9434.287,"end":9452.717,"text":"這個案子其實我們有送過委員會那委員會討論的結果覺得有些點還必須要進一步調查特別是最近又有幾個國家針對這個議題有做出了一些採除那我們覺得可能這些國家採除的理由我們必須要進一步去了解一下目前還在進一步的調查當中"},{"start":9453.618,"end":9464.772,"text":"因為已經過了三年了啦我們說這個部分可能要儘快有一些的出來啦我們會儘快一塊出來主委預定什麼時候可以有一個初步的出來"},{"start":9467.301,"end":9482.446,"text":"我們大概 現在預定是大概六月六月啦 就是一年上半年會出來我們希望有一個初步的出來因為其他的失業國家也都已經有了相關的這個也是確保我們的相關的權益啦好 謝謝再來我請教一下 其實在很多的一些"},{"start":9484.207,"end":9499.802,"text":"零售業者之後其實他有出現了一些消費者的爭議的問題然後這我舉個例子像這個高大鮮乳他兩罐的售價是那個但是他在他的標示上面特價卻是99這個在消費者之間其實有很多的一些"},{"start":9501.003,"end":9521.919,"text":"傳的這些訊息 我也希望公平委更多試探去介入 去輔導 去了解啦就是這些涉及是否有涉及到相關的不實的問題 甚至有些是疏忽還是他的不實的 甚至是他的行銷策略上的問題 這個恐怕也都需要更多的關心和介入 才能避免去影響到消費者的權益"},{"start":9522.615,"end":9538.779,"text":"這部分我們都有密切在觀察這個有立案了嗎?像這樣的案子有立案嗎?目前還沒有啦我請也立案啦好不好我有立案因為現在很多消費者是習慣到這些大型的零售業者或賣場去採購相當很多的產品那這樣的行為已經發生過好幾次了"},{"start":9539.259,"end":9562.488,"text":"很多消費者他不見得知道他可能看出很便宜99塊買了但刷的時候他也沒有仔細看那個金額但事實上有可能就是貴的金額了那我覺得這一塊要去約束不管你是不舒服的還甚至你是不實的都應該要更加的謹慎小心這也是在維護這個消費者權益也在維護整個市場同時今天也是在保護到這個店家的商譽啦"},{"start":9562.708,"end":9582.817,"text":"跟我們報告一下因為這個是涉及到產品標示的問題所以這也許也會涉及到部會之間執掌也請你們再去了解我想這樣的問題都應該去協助讓更確保這樣的事情不再發生另外商品來源有很多不實現在其實大家很多都利用電商來採購相當多的一些產品那像看到很多幾乎都是"},{"start":9583.297,"end":9603.406,"text":"你以為是在台灣的製造或出貨但事實上你在訂購的時候才發現原來是它從中國大陸那邊過來的那我覺得這些都是涉及到不實的問題甚至於很多的產品的問題也本身都有問題所以來了以後品質是非常差的那等到你後面還要再推的話還是什麼的時候其實都有很多的困擾世界也不那麼容易"},{"start":9603.726,"end":9618.284,"text":"所以我也希望在跟公民軍這邊也跟這些電視上的平台要把這些更確立起來如果你是台灣做的或台灣的就是台灣如果你是在其他的外中國大陸或是其他國外的那也要標示清楚那讓消費者不要受到誤導"},{"start":9620.206,"end":9633.321,"text":"電商平台網路廣告我們都一直持續在監控這個標示不實的部分是我們我們有處分過幾個案子這樣的案子有沒有立案在調查我們曾經有處罰過有處罰過那如果處罰過了還有這樣問題請你們要持續的再去要求再去處罰好不好"},{"start":9637.465,"end":9658.999,"text":"如果還有這樣這不應該發生因為現在的電商越來越多這些消費的爭議這應該要確保消費者的權益那其實韓國也有對於電商的相關不法來重罰那現在也有這個購物的平台裡面開始的他把很多的一些免費補貼甚至於一些相關的"},{"start":9660.74,"end":9682.113,"text":"讓 賦予了讓這些賣家有更大的一個壓力啦我覺得這個也都要請公平化去思考怎麼樣避免這樣的事情因為有些電商已經有越來越獨大甚至於他有市場上的一個效果了獨大獨佔的一個效果如果我們不能夠有效確保買方跟賣方的權益的時候那可能電商會不斷去"},{"start":9682.933,"end":9700.676,"text":"去用更強力這個我也希望這件事情公平又要去了解也要去介入好不好不要讓獨大的電商去影響到整個不管是市場或者是消費者的一切權益有關電商的這一塊我目前都有持續在監控跟了解那甚至假設行為有檢舉有涉及到不法"},{"start":9701.457,"end":9724.615,"text":"我們都還要在公平法裡面去進行這個調查好這請主委再重申最後一個吼那個不動產的交易裡面其實有些的這個我也不知道他是標出來什麼一坪竟然只有0.04萬他應該是把整個總的全部我也希望像這樣的問題但不應該發生好不好如果有發生這樣的問題他不是一個不實我會有資料給你們如果這樣的不實的狀況還是要去"},{"start":9725.976,"end":9754.272,"text":"提醒他們那如果該開法就開法就是不應該讓這樣這樣看起來總價感覺沒有什麼很大的但是他在平數單價上超便宜超低的這有可能會產生一定的物廣效果好不好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝好謝謝賴樂榮委員謝謝謝謝主委陳超明陳超明陳超明好接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":9765.671,"end":9769.648,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是請陳代理主委請主委 謝謝"},{"start":9776.406,"end":9795.816,"text":"各位好 大家都很關心就是最近因為這個中東戰爭的影響然後這個塑膠的原料上漲那塑膠原料上漲就影響到很多了嘛那譬如說有這一個醫藥用的這一個塑膠手套類拋棄式器那個液材也受到影響"},{"start":9796.556,"end":9802.119,"text":"然後塑膠類的商品有上週競價漲價兩到三成據經濟部的說法 中油說原料的供應沒有短少"},{"start":9812.443,"end":9833.248,"text":"但是呢這個採發署卻說呢有一些呢比較中盤的經銷商有一點點在心態上面延緩出貨或是有囤貨的現象我不曉得這個代理主委知道這個現象我們有去了解了有去了解了今天這兩天媒體出來之後才去了解還是之前就去了解了我們聽到有這樣的新聞以後我們就進行去了解"},{"start":9834.128,"end":9862.548,"text":"了解是一回事有沒有採取什麼樣的動作但因為我們的查核的重點是在於他們有沒有聯合進行價格的操作啦哄抬是一件事情但是這個哄抬是不是出自於彼此合意的哄抬那是我們調查的重點所以我們有在觀察這個市場那另一方面我們也配合經濟部目前正在進行全面的盤查所以假設這個過程當中我們有發現一些可能有聯合的行為這個聯合包含聯合囤積聯合拒絕出貨所以如果市政顯示有這樣的情況的話我們一定會調查"},{"start":9863.208,"end":9883.341,"text":"那你們是調查哪一些比如說行業產業類別是你們怎麼去做調查的可不可以再講個這個具體一點我目前是針對這個這個塑膠這個產業裡面不同的塑膠類型它有分上游中游下游啊對啊你們可不可以有一個具體的一個說法就是說有沒有去了解到底是怎麼樣去了解法"},{"start":9883.581,"end":9898.594,"text":"我們會瞭解它整個的生產線上下游我們都會去瞭解原料因為中游說原料沒有缺啊中下游這些產品不應該受到影響啊這當然就是我們後續要去瞭解是不是到底問題出在什麼地方這個為什麼我們跟經濟部會繼續跟經濟部那邊來來配合那所以咧哪時候會知道這個結果咧"},{"start":9906.994,"end":9912.379,"text":"因為調查證據需要一點時間那這個調查證據完了以後經過分析我們還要經過委員會的討論所以那個時程上會比較難以控制一點不是一般啊因為現在就是說這個中東戰事好那川普說可能到這個4月9號他認為是一個Date Line但是我們也不知道那至少可能還有兩個禮拜的時間那這兩個禮拜的時間可能會"},{"start":9931.256,"end":9946.003,"text":"對於這個消費者來講 目端消費者來講就會受到影響對很多的這一些這個中小學需要用到的一些廠商比如說那個醫院也受到影響啊那甚至很多賣這個手搖飲之類可能也會受到影響啊那所以你們的這個調查時間大概多久可以出來呢"},{"start":9947.063,"end":9971.702,"text":"當我們調查到市政 我們進行分析到底有沒有合意 搭送委員這其實有時候時程上會有一點通常啦 通常你們都會調查我們盡快在三個月內完成可以嗎三個月內完成喔需要這麼久的時間喔對 因為聯合行為的市政的判斷有時候不是那麼的容易就是到底他們業者之間是不是有勾結那個要有更多的市政來做一些推論啦好"},{"start":9972.489,"end":9989.585,"text":"那就等你們的這個報告,然後這兩天有一個新聞主委應該也知道了,就是說那個Grab他來收購這個Fupenda的事情然後呢這個他收購了這個,打算收購Fupenda,但是呢這個"},{"start":9990.766,"end":10015.371,"text":"Uber呢又是國日本的最大的一個股東啦就會變成這樣一件事情啦那其實在2024年的時候也是有這個UberEats要這個併購這個Fupenda那後來你們說這個市佔率過高有這個不利益的因素所以呢你們就沒有讓它通過嘛對不對那現在看起來這個Fupenda它又是另尋出路出來的那對這件事情我們主委的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10016.142,"end":10031.242,"text":"當然我們分析的原則跟上位的架構是一樣的但是這兩個案子最大的不同是上一個案子結合以後變九成市場超級大的一個企業那這個案子基本上是另外一個企業來頂Fu Panda所以市場結構並沒有產生過大的變化可是"},{"start":10031.923,"end":10050.025,"text":"Uber又是這個啊 這個Gribb最大的股東啊所以繞來繞去還是會變成這一個這個投一家的意思啊因為現在案子還沒進來但等案子進來以後我們的分析重點這個也是我們會去研析的一個重點就是那個實質控股的關係對於整個市場競爭Gribb它的最大的股東應該是Uber才對啊"},{"start":10050.826,"end":10060.293,"text":"對 但是這是13.5對啊那這個部分到底會後續影響到市場競爭到什麼程度這個就是我們後續會會去考慮啦會去考慮這個Uber是國內最大的股市實質的控制對啊那就跟之前是一樣嘛我覺得有點是這一個"},{"start":10067.799,"end":10095.462,"text":"故意來這樣子這個又換了一個一家公司進來但是Uber它還是這一個這家Grab最大的股東我們會去看這個13.5到底實質上它產生的對那個Grab這是一個第二個就是說這個Grab它有這個中資至少我們看到資料就是有這個中國滴滴跟謹順那所以未來這個如果這家公司要進來的話那這部分是不是也要受到這個你們的這個考慮"},{"start":10097.023,"end":10117.472,"text":"我們不會考慮到這個資金來源這應該是投審會投審會那邊投審會那邊會去處理就對了那你們就是考慮到說那到底這個這個未來這個Uber它實質影響到這個Grab市場競爭市場的競爭在台灣的市場競爭他們有來有來做申請嗎還沒有目前還沒有送件目前還沒有送件就對了好我知道好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝謝謝李官成委員接下來我們請這個侯孟"},{"start":10126.957,"end":10135.464,"text":"侯孟凱侯孟凱侯孟凱委員不在葉元梓委員請葉元梓委員質詢謝謝主席好麻煩請代理主委請主委謝謝"},{"start":10159.137,"end":10183.275,"text":"大禹主委您好因為現在主要是因為油價在漲啦大家真的很關心物價希望公平會可以更積極一點啦去針對現在有一些漲價的物品去調查就不要等到好像事情發生有人檢舉之後才去處理那也來不及了啦因為現在油價它的上漲是非常快速的所以物價可能伴隨的也會很快速的上漲千萬不要等到"},{"start":10183.915,"end":10209.694,"text":"有人有施政了然後再摸好幾天那來不及那我昨天是有看到針對那個塑膠袋的部分因為塑膠袋漲價這一塊或者是買不到這個部分經濟部講話也是變來變去啦經濟部一開始是講說不太會有這個問題啦因為他已經要求國內的石化大廠盡量不要去出口啦要針對國內然後所以供應無虞但後來又講說一些中盤商可能會有"},{"start":10211.616,"end":10237.767,"text":"就是囤貨的心理狀態所以導致於市場上買不到甚至於價錢提高那我是有看到經濟部產發署那邊有講說正在跟公平會還有提到公平會正在跟公平會針對幾個中盤商百貨公司 量販店去了解是不是真的缺貨然後隨時監測那這目前經濟部跟公平會你們的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":10238.917,"end":10266.998,"text":"我們跟經濟部有密切的之間的配合那我們的調查重點就在於這種假設不供貨是不是出自於業者彼此之間的共同的抵制共同的杯葛那如果有這種合意存在的話這個就是公平法裡面所謂的聯合行為那我們就會立案調查那現在有調查狀況怎麼樣都沒有 有沒有合意現在目前還沒有查到這樣的事證不過我們還在持續的調查你們已經查了多少中盤商百貨公司跟量販店了"},{"start":10268.537,"end":10287.608,"text":"目前還沒有開始啦還沒開始對 但是我們這個是我們會查處的目標啦這是相關的整個預計什麼時候開始因為經濟部我想說經濟部是不是因為昨天在這邊被大家問啊就隨口講說已經跟公平會跟警察局已經針對中盤商百貨公司這樣飯店做調查了解我沒有懂我們會針對問問公平會公平會說還沒開始那預計什麼時候開始這幾天"},{"start":10293.931,"end":10317.323,"text":"小老百姓在買塑膠袋的時候都買不到我們去麵包店去買麵包然後麵包店老闆說有的說不提供塑膠袋有的說塑膠袋要算錢的那民眾想說為什麼他說以前買一袋30元的塑膠袋現在盤商就要60塊那全部都漲那公民會有沒有去我知道你們的立場是說如果他們是個別漲"},{"start":10318.206,"end":10344.883,"text":"那就不構成聯合壟斷嘛但是如果有合意了我們每一家講好說我們是不是一起來哄抬價格可能就也不一定要講好了就是說如果市場上有一些一些波動的情況是可以有足以懷疑說是出於合意我們還是可以推論他有合意那是不是可以積極一點啊我們就其實大家都在問這個問題是不是可以我們有主動在觀察這個事情主動大概比如說是不是幾天內可以針對這個部分做個公開跟社會大眾報告"},{"start":10347.316,"end":10365.746,"text":"主委你現在回答都比較空啦都一直講說我們準備我們要我們但是到底有沒有什麼時間啟動針對幾家這種具體的部分剛剛委員報告過我們接下來就會積極的去救產業鏈整個各個廠商去調查那是不是"},{"start":10366.326,"end":10391.983,"text":"我們預計大概差不多三個月內可以完成三個月都不知道漲到哪裡去了啦你要趕快而且我建議是不是可以建立一個資訊公開透明的機制告訴大家說現在說要帶比如說合理的價錢應該是多少然後讓大家知道說如果太貴的話他可能有問題就是三個月真的太久了因為我們證據調查還要送委員會討論所以這個時程上有時候比較難以掌握"},{"start":10393.438,"end":10410.791,"text":"好 盡快啦 好不好謝謝 我們盡量然後我請教一下之前的紐西蘭鮮奶因為零關稅的嘛因為價格居高不下後來好像在幾個月前公民會有去調查那價格有下來那目前這個紐西蘭鮮奶最新的進度你們還有在持續追查嗎"},{"start":10411.53,"end":10428.403,"text":"我們目前根據上一次的調查結果是並沒有違反公平法的規定因為國內的現代市場有競爭然後紐西蘭市佔率也不高所以我們後來調查結果是沒有違反公平法沒有違反公平法OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝岳元之委員的質詢謝謝接下來我們請邱志偉召委質詢對 人大召委"},{"start":10444.437,"end":10462.327,"text":"我們可以給你時間盡情發揮謝謝主席 視頻有請公平會這個陳代理主委好 請公平會主委 謝謝"},{"start":10466.766,"end":10469.767,"text":"幾個問題就從你的醫護報告裡面來跟您請教靜齡轉型跟ESG目前的趨勢但是會打著靜齡跟ESG的口號或者大旗"},{"start":10490.117,"end":10517.575,"text":"這個進行綠色行銷綠色行銷當然你會有那種greenwashing就是說漂綠那你們報告裡面也說這個變成這個市場競爭秩序的一些新興的威脅新興威脅所以你的報告裡面說碳中和淨零這些未來會列為不實廣告的查核重點但是事實上數據來看這個是哪一個業務處在主管"},{"start":10518.82,"end":10547.359,"text":"它是我們不公平競爭處就是涉及到不實廣告的部分過去這一年有沒有針對這個所謂greenwashing的行為有沒有任何的採取我們有採取過我印象中應該是兩件那個案子它是涉及到對外宣稱創造一些實際上不存在的那個跟激凌有關的實險譬如說怎麼綜合施等等事實上以這個東西來吸引消費者那有沒有採訪呢有採訪"},{"start":10549.08,"end":10575.778,"text":"拆發金額是多少錢?我們目前沒有罰還上的裁罰,我們只是告訴他你違法,然後我們用警示的方式就是沒有裁罰嘛,是口頭告誡警示,我們用警示的方式警示那一點效果都沒有嘛那你後續追蹤他這個類似的行為有沒有繼續存在?他們的東西大概都已經,他們的廣告都下架了在我們處分的時候都下架了"},{"start":10577.04,"end":10601.361,"text":"就是他們不再進行這個票率的我是覺得像這個絕對不是個案你如果沒有公權力發揮的這個嚇阻力或者制裁力他這個一定是頂多被口頭警告而已所以他這個他的行為會繼續存在可能變本加厲所以未來我希望今天執行之後是不是公平會針對這個Greenwashing的這些行為"},{"start":10602.639,"end":10617.254,"text":"一定要用採除方式所以我們會密切注意但是因為有時候業者他的那個有時候他已經沒有在營業或者說營業金額非常的低然後第一次出販等等我們在罰款的決定上有一些標準我們會綜合考慮當然委員談到如果說企業夠大那"},{"start":10618.114,"end":10646.605,"text":"態度不佳或是說經常在從事這個行為我們就會重罰因為你報告說這是你們一個不實廣告的查核重點重點你就是要這個實際上去全面的去查核只要有人檢舉或者你們發現你們就要去主動去查這部分我們都持續有在在在監測但我覺得目前你們相關的做法這個在你們報告裡面我覺得相對是被動消極你要看其他國家他有他的這個事前的這些防治"},{"start":10647.725,"end":10669.721,"text":"然後有相關的作業準則所以這個部分 主委我希望你們未來事前管理跟可驗證性這兩個方向你們要去研究事前管理還有可驗證性還有一個比較公平或者比較客觀的查核標準"},{"start":10671.729,"end":10699.933,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們持續會監控這方面的行為那當然這個所有的作為都會持續的精進監控要有效果要有效率效率就是及時去處理那效果你監控的時候你要有一個相對相對的查核手冊讓我們同仁依據這個手冊馬上去你這可能要跟環境部合作自列一個國外都有這個所謂廣告查核手冊"},{"start":10700.708,"end":10723.404,"text":"他有一個標準所以這個部分我覺得是不是在未來三個月把它完成會同這個衛福部我們回去研習一下看這個該怎麼做會比較好那當然這也涉及到可能我們必須要跟環境部那邊來是啊所以我已經提出這個建議我的把想法跟你講那你不是說回去研究一下這不可行又完全沒有任何動作"},{"start":10724.859,"end":10741.228,"text":"所以查核要有效果跟效率你要有一個所謂的這個查核手冊這個其他國家都有這個相關以科學作為根據所以這部分我拜託主委三個月之內跟衛福部一個月之內跟衛福部"},{"start":10742.153,"end":10757.884,"text":"去研究怎麼樣去制定一個查核的指引或者查核的手冊我們跟環境部會共同來思考然後就是在委員的三個月內給委員一個報告另外你這個宣導也是很重要不要讓這個企業用這個greenwashing"},{"start":10758.447,"end":10780.44,"text":"去作為不實廣告 是破壞公平競爭好 第二項問題就是說這個不動產不動產跟這個加盟的招募你們這個裁罰過去最多就是大概不動產嘛 對不對是好 不論是服務業還是製造業服務業競爭處是服務競爭處好這個這個部分"},{"start":10785.948,"end":10804.728,"text":"變成一個105件是一個重災區啊所以你那個違法的樣態都集中在不實加成或者未提供這個加盟的重要資訊房地產的部分不動產的部分就是不實加成那這個所謂加盟的招募是未提供加盟重要資訊你們這個已經出來105件"},{"start":10808.703,"end":10832.5,"text":"除了裁罰金額是多少錢?裁罰金額是多少?總共1580億元所以代表說這個部分普遍存在你們除了持續加罰之外你們要有更好的防止的措施包括警示機制的預警功能也好或者你要累犯要罰還要加倍"},{"start":10835.979,"end":10859.833,"text":"這個部分這個有沒有在考慮我們的罰緩就是剛剛跟委員報告大概依照我們的施行細則36條我們會綜合各個因素考慮那當然我也了解委員的關切就是這些不動產生可能資本額非常大然後沒有辦法達到嚇阻的效果那這些東西我們在委員會討論罰緩的時候都會有去具體的考慮那這個累犯呢累犯當然會加重"},{"start":10860.811,"end":10869.314,"text":"現在是加重比例是多少其實並沒有說一個固定要加多少比例但是只要他過去曾經犯過我們一定會把這個法案再加重"},{"start":10871.282,"end":10898.741,"text":"罰則就是要給他們有嚇阻效果他行為才會收斂這類似行為才不會再發生如果你連罰則都沒有善用的話那恐怕他不會他不會理會你的這個行政的管理行政管理不夠一定要用比較高強度的這個行政裁罰是我們要注意這個問題另外加盟資訊的這個透明化2.0這部分你有沒有想法你要包括比較具體的平均營收啦或者過去的違約比例等等"},{"start":10899.562,"end":10921.303,"text":"把這個資料庫把它建立起來讓這個加盟的陷阱能夠減少我想因為一些宣導是有在做就是跟這些加盟事業有談到說哪些資訊是你在加盟當下必須要可以跟他要來了解的那這些相關的資訊我們也都持續會去注意到底是不是有些新的要進來"},{"start":10922.304,"end":10945.259,"text":"那通常這些資訊是在整個加盟產業協商過程當中普遍大家都會重視的一些那這些東西我們要求加盟業者要揭露給加盟市場加盟陷阱存在如果受到這個加盟陷阱受到傷害的都是中小企業或者是小資本或者是一些中南部很多是加盟商如果陷阱他可能血本無歸"},{"start":10946.815,"end":10966.003,"text":"所以我們大概事前我們積極有在宣導這個加盟的一些相關的原則讓業者可以知道還有很多議題要跟請教因為實際上的關係我必須要遵守事件好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱志維委員謝謝那因為洪孟凱委員那我們先請洪孟凱委員質詢4分鐘"},{"start":10977.403,"end":11002.683,"text":"好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們代理主委請代理主委好 代理主委早那個我想可能有一些委員都很關心我想外送平台上個禮拜發生一個大事就是說這個Glob這一個公司它預計要收購這個Full Panda那過去也才看到說Uber Eats說要用300億"},{"start":11003.584,"end":11032.078,"text":"台幣左右來收購Fubenda可是到最後是沒有讓它成功嘛那現在Grab這個公司它要收購它是以200億第一金額少了100億不過更重要的是其實我們站在的是消費者餐廳以及整個市場機制健全的角度來看就是說還是要避免單一群體壟斷的一個行為也因此早上我有看到說這個代理主委有時候回答是說因為現在Uber雖然是Grab的主要的股東"},{"start":11033.078,"end":11055.578,"text":"但是他的占比你說是只有13%左右目前就是根據財報上的資料13.5%但是他是第二大股東喔這點我們公平會有注意到吧他是大股東他是第二大股東第一大股東是SoftBank如果說以現在公開的財報2024年當然2025年最近資料我可能還沒有看到但2024年最大股東他的占比多少清楚嗎"},{"start":11059.198,"end":11084.435,"text":"其實也只有13%換言之其實Uber它在Glob的股權來講它其實還是有所謂的應該看起來還是有所謂實質影響力就我們了解應該是最大的對 因為第三大 第四大是所謂的投資銀行或是說相關的像Morgan Stanley等等的部分所以本期今天點出來的問題點還是在於說後續我們公平會應該會有一個機制去看是不是會有單一聯合壟斷的狀況"},{"start":11086.156,"end":11101.983,"text":"是不是 委員所關切的這個持股控股跟影響事業經營的部分這本來就是我們在結業審查裡面會去判斷的我們強調的是實質的控制力 是所以我們會去看這個13.5所呈現出來的在企業經營上的影響程度到底有多高 是不是可以讓他不會說只是用"},{"start":11102.663,"end":11116.593,"text":"單一的 因為我現在看到新聞這樣畫面我會很擔心說是不是已經公平會有先入為主這一個案件了沒有 我只是要陳述一個事實13.5但是這個東西未來在審查過程當中是會被納入的好 所以未來接下來的這個時程會怎麼走"},{"start":11118.774,"end":11135.584,"text":"一直還沒送件如果說送件的話送件進來以後我們看看那個資料補的齊不齊不齊我們會叫他再補是補完以後正式啟動以起算六個月內我印象中是六個月內應該前後假設要延長的話大概三個月九十天"},{"start":11136.424,"end":11163.026,"text":"90天內會來做一個審核那但是在這過程裡面本席也提醒喔因為過去當然本席以往的態度為什麼我們會在未完委員會要推動外送專法也正式的讓它上線就是因為我們認為是過去外送的這個行業裡面當然先進科技也產生但是一強獨大三個比較弱外送員比較弱消費者比較弱以及餐廳比較弱這也是事實"},{"start":11163.846,"end":11182.621,"text":"而現在看到這種跨國企業他可以一次拿出幾百億的台幣就可以來進軍市場代表是說他其實在國際的這個資金來講他是充裕的而我們消費者外送員以及餐廳的權益就要好好的被保障所以這也是我們希望是能夠做到四方多贏的一個"},{"start":11183.702,"end":11199.655,"text":"成果那過去GLUB在東南亞也有一些比較不好的例子是被當地政府到最後是開罰的譬如說他用演算法來抵制低佣金的餐廳在比較熱門尖峰時段的時候他用演算法就把一些"},{"start":11200.416,"end":11223.899,"text":"低佣金的餐廳給遮蔽或是說排到比較後面讓消費者他可能比較沒有辦法選到這是確實已經在新加坡還是馬來西亞他們就有開罰的一個經驗所以這樣這些部分是不是公平會未來在做審議的時候也應該要用附加條件附加行為的方式來要求過去曾經在其他國家犯的過錯或是被開罰的行為不能在台灣發生"},{"start":11224.951,"end":11240.665,"text":"剛剛委員點出一個重點就是過去他曾經做過的違法歷史我們是會考慮的那個考慮如果說這個違法行為非常明顯然後影響市場競爭非常嚴重在台灣那就如同委員所講的我們不排除用付負擔當然付負擔前提是這個案子過了"},{"start":11240.985,"end":11269.725,"text":"但是我們現在沒有預設任何結論假設如果要通過這些過去的一些違法的事蹟我們也不排除可以在負負擔裡面去要求他必須要遵守好 謝謝戴主委有一個比較正向的回應那我只想講就是說現在因為葉子還沒有送件我們沒有任何預設立場但本期的方向是我們歡迎所有良好的企業都來投資台灣這一塊市場因為台灣這個市場大家競爭能夠讓消費者有更好的選擇可是不要有這種"},{"start":11271.066,"end":11294.92,"text":"過度單一壟斷的行為發生並且更重要的是過去有實力的真的已經有發生被開罰的絕對不應該在台灣來出現所以這一個案子我想去年最大案子應該就是Uber Eats跟Fupenda的一個併購但後面沒有成那今年感覺最重大的案子之一會是這一個案件那我也希望公民會以最嚴謹專業的態度來審視可以嗎我們會非常嚴謹的來審查這個案子"},{"start":11299.305,"end":11300.235,"text":"謝謝戴主委 我們會繼續追 謝謝"},{"start":11301.567,"end":11330.583,"text":"好謝謝鴻海委員執行謝謝謝謝主委我稍微把今天的東西結論一下再請公平會回去好好演繹第一個就是在這個塑膠塑化之亂土方之亂我覺得這個要儘快隨時公布你們的一個調查的結果對這些資訊要所有掌握了那如果你們有在這個公開的網站或什麼可以儘快就宣示那"},{"start":11331.738,"end":11348.57,"text":"另外來講的話呢就是在這個Grab的這個併購項很多委員都有提出來那一門本席召委也是有提出來所以我覺得這一塊的話你們在做將來審議可能還是要考慮一下跟投審會對不對因為他這邊有入資的一個問題"},{"start":11349.651,"end":11377.759,"text":"然後你們這邊形成一個間接的鞏斷怎麼樣子做出你們的看法跟立場同時是要保證我們外送員的權益商家的權益消費者的權益那另外比較新興的其他議題大概就是宗教兵委員跟我所提出來的就在你們的人員法制的這些的要跟上我們數位時代AI的這樣子的一個腳步那這個我想我會列入持續的一個追蹤"},{"start":11379.039,"end":11391.588,"text":"那另外在這個邱昭偉這邊的不管是在考慮加盟資訊的透明化我覺得這一塊的議題在不實廣告這邊我希望你們也是可以緊述有一些積極的回應"},{"start":11393.695,"end":11409.552,"text":"好做我的summary大概是这样那第一个登记发言委员除不在场外其余均已发言完毕询答结束第二委员陈超明蔡易宇所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报"},{"start":11410.453,"end":11428.167,"text":"第三书面质询和未及答复的部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会委员令要求期限者从期锁定本日所列议程处理完均谢谢大家现在散会"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}