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bwd6"},{"start":1480.64,"end":1481.734,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1525.165,"end":1543.649,"text":"好現在開會那今天就是針對國家安全法修法召開公聽會那行政院國家安全法草案你針對鼓吹戰爭言論徵令裁罰條款行政機關在裁罰時應如何區分危害國家安全之主觀故意"},{"start":1545.25,"end":1570.369,"text":"與單純政治表達自由在衛經法院審理程序下盡由行政機關認定言論違法並處以行政法是否有行政權介入司法權之餘另現行刑法外患罪以針對通謀開戰行為設有重懲國安法修法針對鼓吹戰爭言論增設行政法是否有其必要性又依司法院釋字第445號及644號解釋意旨"},{"start":1572.901,"end":1577.561,"text":"限制言論應以具備明顯而即刻之危險為前提"},{"start":1578.28,"end":1602.838,"text":"若對未達具體急迫的政治性言論處以重懲是否構成國家權力對言論範疇之過度干預等等相關議題都值得我們關切於討論因此我們今天特別舉辦第二場國家安全法修法公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為國家安全法修法討論時的參考"},{"start":1607.665,"end":1631.762,"text":"那首先先介紹我們的專家學者初期委員以及政府機關代表那首先我們先介紹我們這個開南大學法律學系兼任副教授 蔣桂美教授還有我們陳立琳律師國立雲林科技大學科技法律研究所教授 楊志傑教授"},{"start":1633.953,"end":1660.336,"text":"台北海洋科技大學通識教育中心助理教授吳攝智教授傅欣怡律師廖國祥律師我們介紹出席的我們部會官員代表首先我們先介紹內政部政務次長馬政次我們警政署李文章副署長"},{"start":1662.113,"end":1688.753,"text":"刑事警察局林固婷副局長大陸委員會法政處周明瑞處長行政院外交國防法務處張志朋參議國家安全局第三處陳副處長國防部法律事務司軍法事務處胡耀仁副處長法務部檢察司張曉雯司長"},{"start":1691.138,"end":1715.914,"text":"主任檢察官白聖文主任檢察官司法院刑事廳顧正德副廳長吳元耀法官數位發展部法制處吳怡倫副處長職工安全署黃淑妮科長資源管理司葉信宇濟政"},{"start":1718.817,"end":1729.903,"text":"國家資通安全研究所研究院林恩志研究員好 今日公聽會的程序如下"},{"start":1731.277,"end":1752.682,"text":"先請部會簡短報告後再請學者專家發言依出席簽到順序為原則每位發言時間為8分鐘本院委員如要發言請至主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":1754.401,"end":1779.293,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數這個倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲那我們補充補充介紹一下是不是那個我們東吳大學政治學系的教授謝正裕教授那我們現在請部會報告我們先請內政部報告"},{"start":1794.034,"end":1809.847,"text":"主席還有我們在座各位學者專家以及我們各單位的同仁先進以及媒體記者女士先生大家早安今天很榮幸我們代表內政部來跟各位說明我們對於國家安全法修法的一個立場"},{"start":1811.564,"end":1831.972,"text":"首先我想我們今天在座有非常多的教授跟專家學問應該都比我好那麼也會有很高深的見解內政部在今天的報告裡面我們只希望請大家面對一個事實的問題也就是說台灣今天我們有股市三萬點"},{"start":1833.584,"end":1861.229,"text":"主要的原因在於我們有自由民主的體制還有經濟讓我們有活力跟動能來維持我們現在這樣的一個社會制度那麼我要講的事實是我們在理論上我們有很多的主張我想內政部我們也收集了不同的意見但是我們要看到的是我們的對手是誰"},{"start":1862.557,"end":1889.838,"text":"今天會修國家安全法它的原因是在於我們的對手我們的境外敵人勢力已經跟過去完全不同那麼這個境外敵人勢力也就是目前的北京政權是一個劣跡斑斑的政權在人權在智慧財產權"},{"start":1891.59,"end":1917.998,"text":"在國際的戰略地緣政治上有各式各樣侵略的舉動尤其是對於台灣那麼我們曉得以往中國對台灣有所謂的三戰第一個叫輿論戰再來心理戰跟法律戰我們現在的對手除了三戰之外還有新的兩個戰法"},{"start":1919.724,"end":1941.197,"text":"第一個戰法叫錯位戰也就是將我們原本制度上面合理的正確的設計用各種方法讓他錯位讓他沒有辦法正常的運轉我們現在看看我們的政府機關跟國會之間的關係看看我們現在很多的爭議都是來自於這樣的一個錯位戰所導致的"},{"start":1943.53,"end":1961.446,"text":"第五個戰法叫侵蝕戰你就用各種方式侵蝕台灣民主自由的基礎這個已經不是我們在理論上所看到的而是每一天我們都在社會的每一個角落直接上演"},{"start":1962.526,"end":1987.006,"text":"尤其是敵方的代理人在台灣張牙舞爪用我們的民主自由制度上面的寬容跟寬厚來攻擊我們所以國家安全法的修法很多人認為它是對於自由的言論自由的箝制是對於民眾政治自由表達的限制"},{"start":1987.987,"end":2017.032,"text":"其實這是一個完全的誤解而且這是一個不切實際的文青的幻想因為我們現在要做的事情是要讓敵人的攻擊的成本提高提高我們的嚇阻力所以國家安全法的修法是在彌補我們在我們的國家的免疫系統能夠提升我們的防護能力"},{"start":2019.073,"end":2033.526,"text":"我想大家都知道如果今天我們的家人受到外在的威脅有人威脅要殺全家大家會去警察局報案會心生恐懼如果有民眾在"},{"start":2035.287,"end":2056.808,"text":"媒體上說要到捷運去放火要去做這個無差別的攻擊它是公共危險它是所謂的公眾的恐嚇一樣有刑責那麼對於個人家庭對於社會公眾運輸系統的這樣的恐嚇都構成犯罪"},{"start":2058.015,"end":2074.164,"text":"何況是對於國家的攻擊對於我們的民主政體要進行侵略這樣的一個言論而沒有任何的罰則也沒有任何的限制這個是不符合我們現況的不符合現實狀態的所以"},{"start":2077.389,"end":2104.263,"text":"在整個華人文化圈裡面其實台灣保留了幾千年的文化的傳統我們保留了傳統的文字我們保留了我們的宗教自由我們保有了非常優良的價值系統這個跟我們的對岸它本身本質就是一個法西斯納粹政權完全不同那麼中國大陸目前的北京政權"},{"start":2105.987,"end":2115.433,"text":"常常一本政經說瞎話他說他們是抵抗法西斯政權其實他們自己就是他指責別的國家"},{"start":2116.88,"end":2143.049,"text":"事實上所指責的內容都是他自己正在做的事情所以我們保有台灣的民主自由制度宗教自由制度經濟自由制度事實上就是提供華人文化圈未來發展一個最重要的標杆這個是我們責無旁貸的責任所以國家安全法的修法其實它的整個架構並不應該局限於一個"},{"start":2144.671,"end":2153.443,"text":"小規模小層次的這樣的一個對於特定言論的限制的討論而是要用宏觀的角度來看這件事情"},{"start":2154.249,"end":2172.122,"text":"那麼全世界的民主國家都面臨一樣的威脅灰色地帶的威脅從內部瓦解等等這些方法那麼我們都每天都看到所以我們希望社會跟我們的國會委員們能夠賦予我們"},{"start":2175.064,"end":2190.695,"text":"新的責任跟新的制度來抵抗這樣的一個侵略我再次強調國家安全法的修法並不是要前置民眾的政治表達跟言論自由而是要提高敵人攻擊的成本"},{"start":2193.697,"end":2206.622,"text":"讓這個法律能夠嚇阻我們的民主自由制度的一個崩壞我想這個是我們最主要的一個原因那也代表內政部跟行政部門在這個地方跟各位做這樣的一個報告 謝謝大家好 接下來我們請陸委會報告"},{"start":2232.193,"end":2250.246,"text":"主席各位專家學者先進各位女士各位先生承蒙貴委員會邀請陸委會出席本次國家安全法公聽會以下請針對本會的說明敬請各界指教"},{"start":2252.366,"end":2279.089,"text":"第一 相关行政行为均符合法定程序及权利分立原则本会认为单纯的政治意见表达系公民基于对公共事务的关心所谓之评论建议或立场宣誓属于宪法保障之言论自由范畴为基于公正公约第20条要求应该以法律禁止鼓吹战争之言论"},{"start":2280.174,"end":2303.561,"text":"所以行政院的版本國安法的修正草案它是以公開鼓吹、倡議或支持為要件行為人堂主觀上對實施相關行為有認知客觀上有具體行為即以構成違反規定並非單純的意見表達的範疇而且行政法的設置"},{"start":2304.628,"end":2317.185,"text":"是針對此類具備危害意圖的公開行為進行及時的管理確保國家安全防護網的有效性相關行政處分均需依據具體的事證"},{"start":2318.602,"end":2342.629,"text":"並符合行政程序法的正當程序受處分者亦得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟由司法機關進行最終的實質審查確保行政權行使之界限並無行政權僭越司法權之疑慮第二行政法得及時因應複合式威脅以穩定社會民心"},{"start":2344.468,"end":2372.614,"text":"鉴于当前境外势力渗透手法日益复杂且多元传统刑事门槛有其侦审上的局限性难以应对快速变迁的复合式威胁行政院版的草案《侦涉行政法》是为了填补现行法治的真空地带针对尚未达到刑事犯罪门槛但足以干扰社会稳定的行为提供政府适当的处置工具"},{"start":2373.777,"end":2397.947,"text":"此舉能有效精確切斷滲透鏈,確保國家主權與社會的安定。另外,公正公約第20條第一項規定,任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應以法律禁止之。聯合國人權事務委員會認為,上開禁止措施與該公約第19條規範之言論自由權完全相容。"},{"start":2399.541,"end":2424.483,"text":"顯示以法律禁止鼓吹戰爭言論並沒有侵害言論自由的問題且我國定有兩公約施行法相關立法當然有其必要性第三面對國家安全挑戰民主防衛機制確實有其必要當前國家安全所面臨的挑戰已與過往截然不同"},{"start":2425.526,"end":2436.993,"text":"面對境外敵對勢力日益嚴峻的威脅法治環境確實有與時俱進的必要雖然司法院釋字第45號及第644號解釋強調限制言論應以明顯及克制危險為衡量標準"},{"start":2444.83,"end":2471.999,"text":"然鼓吹战争言论对国家主权维护其社会秩序维持的伤害恐有连锁效应言论扩散致民心不稳社会不安从而导致具体实害发生往往在瞬息之间若能透过修法增定各为具体明确的客观要件不仅能落实事件的精神更能及早築起民主社会的防卫网"},{"start":2472.958,"end":2496.897,"text":"此舉除保障正當公民權利外亦能建構符合現代需求的專業防衛法制與危險真正發生前落實預警與防堵第四強化數位空間管理與建立網路平台協力機制隨著數位技術與社群媒體成為境外勢力滲透的新領域"},{"start":2498.277,"end":2515.302,"text":"政府必須補強網路數位空間的安全維護機制針對相關違法資訊的處理院版草案規劃由內政部會同相關主管機關建立跨部會會商機制原則上並非由單一機關進行認定"},{"start":2517.54,"end":2541.141,"text":"以确保处分的专业性与客观性前草案内容系参着现行其他法令有关网络下架的机制可任性兼顾国家安全与言论自由并可借事后的救济程序由司法加以审查五同步精进维护国家安全与保障言论自由的法制"},{"start":2542.85,"end":2549.064,"text":"維護國家安全與保障言論自由並非互斥而是相輔相成的憲法價值"},{"start":2550.404,"end":2571.991,"text":"不能因為保障言論自由就讓國安需求無限退讓透過法律制度的與時俱進更能精進地界定權力行使之邊界政府在完善國家法律的過程中始終秉持守護民主體制的初衷確保在防範境外勢力干擾的同時"},{"start":2573.271,"end":2599.889,"text":"亦能落實對公民表達權力的尊重此種修法方向不僅有效懲治不法更能凝聚全民守護民主自由之共識德國威馬憲法下納粹崛起的歷史正是提醒我們要記取經驗避免境外敵對勢力以民主機制掩護其破壞民主的行為中上本次行政院版的草案"},{"start":2600.987,"end":2626.236,"text":"主要是為了接軌國際規範補強現行法規的漏洞的必要舉措守護台灣的自由民主體制是全民的最大公約數我們希望在行政與立法部門協力的推動下得以確保國家在面對外部挑戰時具備充足且正當的應對機制以上報告敬請各位先進指教"},{"start":2633.513,"end":2661.546,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報接著請專家學者發言我們按出席簽到順序第一位我們請這個廖國祥發言主席各位先進大家好我是廖國祥律師名字有時候會跟我們今天的主席搞混"},{"start":2662.472,"end":2674.822,"text":"今天不是李貞秀代理主席了嗎對不對很可惜啊今天這一場公聽會的主題就跟李貞秀有關係啊所以多希望他今天坐在主席台上聽大家怎麼樣好好說一下好"},{"start":2676.223,"end":2692.98,"text":"我們今天來說我們必須要正視一個事實境外敵對勢力對台灣的滲透已經深入到社會各個角落了根據國安局的統計2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數就有64個人是三年前的三倍之多"},{"start":2693.681,"end":2706.375,"text":"中共正透過黑道幫派、地下錢莊、公廟團體、民間社團種種各式各樣的手段管道對我國人民、對我國各個單位進行吸納、進行滲透"},{"start":2708.902,"end":2722.808,"text":"大家昨天有看徐春英的起訴書對不對內容非常的精彩啊難道又是科幻小說嗎上一部說是科幻小說的今天下午要選判我這邊沒有要離題啊我這邊沒有離題因為徐春英的起訴書"},{"start":2724.281,"end":2744.015,"text":"我們看了之後就知道中國的腎痛有多嚴重了這個跟大院跟立法院有非常大的關係喔尤其我們今天是在內政委員會內政委員會就有一位共諜指定的接班人就是李真秀啊我們說話又有憑有據所以我來念一段起訴書的對話給大家聽喔那個"},{"start":2748.313,"end":2773.478,"text":"孫憲 上海統促會副主任他說李貞秀接班應該沒問題了吧徐春英說我下週會和民眾黨社發部主任碰面年底的活動是他們應該會要求李貞秀參與哇 你們看連立法院 連內政委員會都有共諜的指定接班人參與了國安法難道沒有修法的必要性嗎我們講回來"},{"start":2776.624,"end":2789.006,"text":"許多修法的聲音都質疑說由行政機關認定言論違法然後處以行政法等等的有沒有僭越司法權有沒有違反人權我們首先要先搞清楚一件事情"},{"start":2790.32,"end":2818.719,"text":"違反法律上義務的制裁究竟要採刑事法還是採行政法這是立法裁量的權限這在司法院釋字第517號解釋已經清楚說明了那採取行政法的規範依照行政法法的規定本來就是由行政機關去進行事實調查跟裁處啊你要說這是違憲那難道現在種種的行政法成千上萬的行政法全部都是違憲嗎交通罰單也違憲嗎"},{"start":2820.861,"end":2849.224,"text":"更重要的是行政機關行使裁罰權之後受處剩的人如果不服的話依照訴願依照行聖訴訟法提起救濟行政機關做成主份最終人應該由司法機關進行實質的調查確保行政權行使的界限有沒有違反法律的界面有沒有違反憲法上面的人權保障那事實上這次國安法的草案裡面他效果算採取行政法而不是刑事法事實上呢"},{"start":2849.804,"end":2873.904,"text":"反而是已經減輕了對人民權利的侵害了是採取對人民侵害較小的手段那當前的國安其實也已經不局限於實體的國界實體的邊界了隨著數位技術的發展隨著社群媒體的發展這都是境外敵對勢力滲透了一個新領域所以政府當然也必須要去補強所謂的數位網路空間的安全維護機制"},{"start":2875.396,"end":2894.793,"text":"那我們必須當面去面對的是什麼我們現在必須直接面對的是什麼是言論自由的保障跟國家安全的橫貧問題提綱引用了司法院4-45號跟6-44號解釋主張說限制言論自由應該以明顯而立即的危險為前提"},{"start":2895.313,"end":2919.173,"text":"但是其實這個明顯而立即危險的標準是對於事前限制人民言論自由表現自由的一個核限要件核限的基準跟這次修法是針對你已經說出來的話已經鼓吹戰爭行為已經鼓吹戰爭行為的言論這個是事後的處罰這是完全不同的兩件事情不應該混淆言論自由的核心是什麼"},{"start":2919.973,"end":2942.54,"text":"應該是要促進公眾思辨、溝通意見跟尋求真理而不是淪為散播仇恨跟鼓吹戰爭的工具啊尤其是我們看內政部的報告也指出了正常言論自由的範圍對時事政務的評論都不在本次國安法修法的涵括範圍在內所以並不存在所謂的羅織罪名、箝制言論自由整種的批判"},{"start":2943.26,"end":2958.529,"text":"只有當言論已經達到鼓吹戰爭的程度已經在協助境外敵對勢力去鼓吹戰爭的時候才會因為他已經不具備所謂的公共思辨的意涵而是單純的鼓吹仇恨"},{"start":2958.949,"end":2984.364,"text":"鼓吹戰爭這個時候當然就不能以言論自由政治表意自由來阻卻違法憲法法庭113年憲判制第三號判決也指出了國家當然應該給予言論自由最大限度的保障但也不意味著任何的言論均該是受絕對的保障在符合憲法第二三條的限制之下要件之下還是可以對言論自由進行一定的管制跟限制"},{"start":2984.924,"end":3004.89,"text":"尤其公民與政治權利國際公約第20條第一項也明確規定了任何鼓吹戰爭的宣傳應該以法律禁止因此本次的修法也是完全符合並且是在履行國際公約的要求那最後講一下所謂的封網很多人在傳封網等於獨裁這個之前吵過了"},{"start":3005.93,"end":3021.72,"text":"詐騙的封網他們當時也說這是獨裁那事實上呢證實了執行的封網的動作之後確實詐騙的流量詐騙的數量也顯著的下降了那尤其是在所謂的封網底下還是必須要嚴守行政程序法的相關規範"},{"start":3023.041,"end":3047.925,"text":"行政機關進行各種的行政程序的時候本來就應該依照行政法去進行採取進行行政管制對當事人一切的正當法律程序的保障全部都是依法為之並且受到法院事後的檢查那此外在比較法上面包含德國的數位服務法網路執行法都明確授權行政機關請注意是行政機關設立數位服務協調機構來審查包含假訊息煽動仇恨言論在內的違法內容"},{"start":3052.646,"end":3072.467,"text":"所以說並沒有所謂的由行政機關進行一個網路的言論的一個事後的追審就是所謂的獨裁這完全是不符合現實的而且甚至也反於目前世衛世衛時代下防衛民主秩序的一個要求"},{"start":3074.206,"end":3094.719,"text":"維護國家的安全保障跟言論自由並沒有完全排斥是相輔相成的一個憲法的價值必須要有國家存在才能實現人民言論自由的權利那針對境外敵對勢力這樣各式各樣的干擾現行法制當然是需要一定的對應措施那所以說我完全的支持這一次的國安法的修正謝謝"},{"start":3104.414,"end":3106.595,"text":"好接下來我們請陳麗玲發言主席各位委員還有各位先進我是陳麗玲律師同時也是新黨的發言人那今天來這邊特別討論到有關國家安全法修法的狀況我要特別跟各位報告國家安全法的修法事實上造成了"},{"start":3132.164,"end":3159.535,"text":"這個新黨有三位年輕人在六年以前因為一個國安法的修法說我們有發起組織的問題因此被限制出境了五年多也因此導致這些年輕人有的35歲才結婚那這樣的一個國安法的一個修正事實上對我們這個新黨來說其實是一個非常非常諷刺因為到最後經過六年的審理"},{"start":3160.595,"end":3180.765,"text":"法院判決無罪確定而這三位年輕人的這個青春總共是18年已經不復返所以今天在這邊討論國家安全法修法的部分我們要特別針對行政院提的這個版本來提出我們法律上專業的意見第一個是有關於這個"},{"start":3181.986,"end":3210.095,"text":"法律明確性原則的部分事實上在這個之前有關於國安法第二條修正發起資助主持操縱指揮或發展組織就已經這個是非常的不明確需要透過法院事後的這個調查來補足他的這個構成要件那現在又增加說足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定那事實上國安法的第一條就已經規定了"},{"start":3211.435,"end":3227.006,"text":"這個叫做畫蛇天竺更重要的是其實它是什麼它是要藉這個來過渡到第二條是參與前項組織因為他不敢直接寫所以就把這個直接參直接危害國家安全的部分"},{"start":3227.947,"end":3246.766,"text":"把用這個偷渡到這個參與前項組織各位試問內政部我們現在有多少的人民團體是屬於兩岸交流團體剛剛這個律師特別提到說這個徐春英他因為什麼上海的這個部分徐春英的這個就是因為他有某個協會的這個通聯記"},{"start":3249.708,"end":3271.217,"text":"電話被監聽因此後來被起訴但是我要說明的是如果我們只是兩岸正常的交往在我們一中憲法的狀況之下在兩岸人民條例還沒有修正的情形之下請問兩岸人民交流何罪之有為什麼要用國安法這樣一個不確定的這樣的一個"},{"start":3272.037,"end":3301.124,"text":"名號靠在這些人的頭上這是第二點第三點是什麼看法條之後越看越恐怖為什麼因為第四條特別提到說任何人不得以文字圖畫聲音言語影像電子紀錄或他法公開鼓吹倡議或支持外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力對我發動戰爭及採取非和平手段消滅我國主權我看了之後第一個是任何人"},{"start":3303.915,"end":3319.963,"text":"這個任何人包含你我我想請問一下最近在網路上非常紅的一條視頻是大陸的這個國台辦的發言人在昨天說以後可以這個自駕遊到北京"},{"start":3321.244,"end":3345.821,"text":"那很多人就開始瘋狂的轉發那請問如果這有人就說那兩岸統一之後我們就可以我們就可以這個或者有人說那統一後來後面就有人說那就統一和平統一不可能那是不是就直接用武統那武統之後我們就可以自駕遊到北京那請問他在這下面的留言是不是有所謂的用文字"},{"start":3346.541,"end":3363.975,"text":"來公開鼓吹這個支持大陸地區對我發動戰爭那更不要談什麼請問網路上面的八炯閩南郎的這些言論是不是主張兩岸武統更不要說什麼賴清德總統"},{"start":3365.316,"end":3380.587,"text":"在之前也就不過兩個月之前他說什麼2027這個中國也就是大陸要對我們發動武統後來趕快在他的這個這個正式的這個文版裡面做了相關的修正"},{"start":3381.628,"end":3397.515,"text":"這些是不是屬於國家我們這次國安法裡面修正的範圍所以就這些言論來說事實上是大大的前置了我們的言論自由更何況什麼現在網路上面會寫作文的人太多了"},{"start":3398.115,"end":3411.521,"text":"每次來公開這個發表一些所謂的栽贓的虛假的虛偽言論當什麼當山人成虎當這個雞飛成勢的時候這些言論我們要如何加以審查"},{"start":3412.622,"end":3440.331,"text":"我想台灣跟所謂的極權國家最大的一個不同是什麼是我們是一個高度言論自由的國家如果說要透過這樣的一個言論自由的一個前置這邊特別提到說第四條的第三項說經過內政部會商法務部大陸委會及相關機關認定違反前項規定要處十萬到一百萬以下的罰款這是行政法"},{"start":3440.851,"end":3464.127,"text":"那這個立法單位說對因為行政法相較於這個刑法來說他是所謂刑法遷移性的一個原則所以沒有什麼侵害到人權各位很可怕為什麼因為行政機關他的什麼行政裁量權叫什麼我們法律上面的法官的這樣的一個裁定的一個權利來的什麼更寬廣"},{"start":3466.889,"end":3482.965,"text":"所以今天只要內政部跟這個陸委會認為說你這言論是屬於主張武統然後接下來你就可能接到一張十萬到一百萬的一個罰單那這個接下來你要幹嘛你要進行相關的訴願行政訴訟等等程序"},{"start":3483.766,"end":3512.204,"text":"所以我們認為說行政機關他在認定的時候我們絕對不容許這樣的空白授權讓什麼讓法律的明確性原則蕩然無存所以這個部分我個人認為說所謂的這個第四條的一個規定所謂的實體空間跟網路空間的這個部分應該就是直接維持原條文而這個增加的這個部分事實上是多此一舉"},{"start":3513.084,"end":3531.854,"text":"再來有關於這個第四條之一也就是所謂封網的部分我想這個封鎖網路是這個民進黨政府之前一直在嘲笑這個大陸說他們在大陸不能用FB在大陸不能上YouTube"},{"start":3532.782,"end":3557.063,"text":"那如果說今天也授權了相關的機關可以進行封網的話我想對言令自由的前置是十分十分的巨大更不要說什麼在我們這個在這個後續有關於這個公務人員他參與了這個假設有違反本法的規定他的這個信奉是要被先扣50%"},{"start":3558.624,"end":3573.346,"text":"各位如果他是一個基層的一個公務員他的薪水也只有多少也只有兩萬多塊不到三萬塊那你要給他扣一半他一個月只有一萬五千塊請問他能夠生活嗎"},{"start":3574.167,"end":3597.198,"text":"所以我認為說這樣這些修法都是什麼損害人民的權益 前置言論自由也前置新聞報導自由這樣的一個國安法修正如果真的要修正 請民進黨大力推動什麼修憲 宣布台灣獨立不要讓我們的國安法成為前置人民主張統一這個言論的一個場域 謝謝"},{"start":3606.07,"end":3615.162,"text":"先向前兩位發言的朋友致歉,因為剛剛名單上面沒有給我這個稱謂,抱歉這兩位律師不好意思,那第三位我們請傅欣儀律師發言"},{"start":3625.356,"end":3649.19,"text":"主席以及各位與會的先進然後還有就是各位委員大家早安那我想我今天我就先跟大家報告我對於看這一個議案的結論其實我本人也是對於內政部的行政院的修法提案還有方才內政部跟入委會的說明這邊我也是競表贊同然後理由的話我稍後我就先在以下案的時間跟大家報告"},{"start":3649.97,"end":3675.362,"text":"一開始呢 方才那個廖律師有跟大家講到我們國內的一個政治新聞那我在這邊 我想要先以一個國外的一個真實的個案來跟大家來做一個引言那 呃 陳茹我在Pawpoint上面我有那個那個整理出這個個案的摘要在2016年的1月11號 有一位叫做呃 就是她是那個那個惡 那個她是惡德醫的那個一個青少女"},{"start":3675.982,"end":3682.786,"text":"然後呢他被新聞報導說他遭強制就他被那個他被性侵害然後他被擄走被性侵害了很長一段時間然後消失了30小時然後這個新聞呢其實一開始在報導的時候因為大家都不曉得那個真偽嘛因為總是故事出來了然後呢在1月16號就是在一週以內呢"},{"start":3703.82,"end":3710.984,"text":"有一個駐德的俄國的新聞媒體叫做Channel One然後他就大肆的報導就是說你看啊這個就是德國的一個問題就是因為畢竟就是有一個"},{"start":3720.37,"end":3739.464,"text":"青少女然後發生這樣的事情然後結果很快的德國司的外長就是等同於我們的外交部長這個概念他就是在親自的外交場合就是點名這個案件希望德國政府說明說為什麼會有一個就是有一個二一的一個少女居然在德國發生這個事情然後請德國說明然後很長一段時間後來經過刑法上的調查後才發現到說烏龍案"},{"start":3746.289,"end":3766.663,"text":"就這個少女呢其實就是因為有一個家庭事件然後離家然後當然也跟一些青少年在一起那這個事件呢曾經就是在德國也有講到說那是不是這個俄國的Channel 1涉及到德國的那個煽動罪就是影響因為是德國的外交部長把這個變成一個外交層級的案件"},{"start":3769.025,"end":3782.792,"text":"所以我想我們說見為知著就是小事有可能變大事那這個在德國就是一個真實的案例而且影響到後來的德國說法我在稍後的PowerPoint也會跟大家報告那這個案件其實為什麼會"},{"start":3784.473,"end":3799.622,"text":"為什麼會促成德國的一個行政法制的一個修法的原因是因為後來發現到事實的真偽已經長達了很久一段時間大家都知道說刑事失望程序必須要進行很嚴格的偵查跟審判的流程耗時往往數年"},{"start":3800.563,"end":3823.43,"text":"那我們在這麼短的時間就能夠導致一個外交甚至升級到國安危害的一個事件是不是也應該要有一個行政的管制措施所以呢這個個案在2016年發生2017年德國他們就通過一部法律就是我在上面有那個就有秀的這一個這個簡稱然後就是希望說呢如果說有相關媒體遇到這樣的狀況然後也應該要有"},{"start":3827.091,"end":3852.8,"text":"移除違法的一個言論的一個義務然後違法的罰則最高五千萬歐元如果換算現在的貨幣大概十八億台幣左右然後這個是一個基本的一個概念那當然我們知道因為台灣呢其實國際地位曖昧然後我們也有所謂的就是有所謂的飛彈一直在我國上空巡迴的一個就是一個境外的一個國家"},{"start":3853.34,"end":3871.465,"text":"那在這邊的話呢我們其實面對這個問題其實比德國更加險峻所以我就回歸剩下的剩下的四分鐘我就回歸我們本案的這個四個議題第一個議題如何區分國安的主觀故意跟政治表達自由還有今天我們的國安法的修法以行政法"},{"start":3872.666,"end":3881.175,"text":"來處理個案是不是有逾越到司法的權限好那第一個就我想來看如果我們涉及到一個法律的標準的話我們還是要去回歸到比較比較細緻化的一個內涵第一個要先看它的內容"},{"start":3887.342,"end":3897.414,"text":"是不是有所謂的就是推翻我國的一個就是一個憲政秩序的危機第二個就是我們要看它是不是有一個反復性組織化的規模那當然如果是偶發性的表達就單純個人的政治意見評述的話當然我們也是要表達言論自由的那我們也是要看它的脈絡還有它有沒有涉及到境外勢力的一個問題"},{"start":3908.3,"end":3936.238,"text":"所以在這邊的話呢這個就是誠如我方還跟各位報告的如果是個人意見的表述或是個人對於政治的諷刺跟批評的話我們當然就是台灣是一個言論自由的國家我們要保障我們的國人言論自由但是如果有歡迎境外武力就是甚至到動員發動就是說就是以境外的資助然後來宣揚我們台灣要放棄主權然後就是要跟他國就是要跟他國融為一體然後"},{"start":3937.719,"end":3952.273,"text":"必須失去了我們台灣或是中華民國的一個主權的話我想這個的話就應該是已經危害到我們的國安了好然後那接下來我們來看就是有關於行政法跟司法權呢依照大法官解釋有講到說如果保護法義跟"},{"start":3953.413,"end":3976.402,"text":"還有裁罰性質不同還有只要行政的裁罰能夠通過比例原則的審查其實這些都是合法的那我們來看稅捐基金法的概念也是今天逃漏稅有行政法有刑事法只要他的處罰目的範圍項目不同其實這個並沒有任何的衝突而且也有誠如方才各位先進也有講到的依照國際公約我想我們的草案其實是有符合到國際公約的標準"},{"start":3977.862,"end":4006.821,"text":"然後那至於刑法外患罪跟行政法有沒有一事不二法我想就從這個POINT我們可以很簡單的看到外患罪這個是已經結合境外勢力已經是有通謀開戰的這個前提如果要到達這個前提國家才能夠介入的話我想這個大家應該住在國內也都會非常的害怕所以反而是國安法我們在前階段有一個行政法然後而且在處罰的制裁強度大家可以看到刑法是死刑無期徒刑"},{"start":4007.921,"end":4030.161,"text":"動輒就要判處國人死刑無期徒刑的話這反而是更加嚴峻所以反而是有一個行政法的一個中間介入的處置反而是對國家的一個安全還有一個制裁反而是一個比較合乎比例原則的一個效益好然後那接下來那為什麼我會特別的表達說為什麼刑事法沒有辦法取代行政法是因為刑事法是真的曠日費是舉證困難"},{"start":4032.123,"end":4056.764,"text":"所以這個部分我們在國安法修法還是有其必要性那所謂明顯而立即的危險方才其實廖律師也有講到4至445號跟644號它其實是一個針對事前的集會遊行跟集會結社的一個事前審查那我們今天國安法其實是針對一個已經發生的事情要來做一個行政裁罰我想這個應該是不同的標準的好然後那不同的標準那當然也是要符合比例原則的審查"},{"start":4057.825,"end":4079.798,"text":"那我在這邊的話我個人我是針對比例原則的審查我是提出有那個五層次的方案那當然也是希望如果未來這個草案通過以後行政的裁量也更能夠細緻跟具體化好然後那有關封網的話呢我想其實只要國家是依法行政封網我就舉個例子好了大家手機應該都有在SNS上Block"},{"start":4084.602,"end":4097.789,"text":"不恰當的言論過吧或是不恰當的電話吧就防止自己被詐騙之類的所以其實所謂的封網我想我們也不應該把它給污名化那甚至我們其實我們講的終止網路的措施那當然我也承認它必須要有比較高的門檻比較高的標準然後我在這邊的話呢有關比較法的制度我在這邊的話我在我比較詳細的文字的說明就大家可以參照一些國外的一個法治規範"},{"start":4111.536,"end":4122.284,"text":"好然後那以上呢是我的大概的粗淺說明然後我的文字說明跟我的提綱意見就是有這以下的五點結論然後再請大家詳談我的文字論述謝謝下一位我們請吳攝智助理教授"},{"start":4139.562,"end":4164.19,"text":"主席還有各位在座的協助監禁我想我今天我先講我個人對修法的意見我的立場我是非常支持這樣的修法為什麼支持?當然我們知道法律作為底線它無法面臨當前的挑戰那我們何來談權利跟義務甚至民主跟自由的議題首先"},{"start":4165.236,"end":4187.826,"text":"我想我們所面臨的挑戰,如剛剛其實部會的相關的一個報告內容都已經提到了我們所面對的挑戰是,我認為這樣的一個無形的戰爭或無煙消的戰爭其實已經在台灣打起來了,應該說已經在我們身邊開打了那我們面對的是一個這個滲透或這個挑戰,這針對國安的挑戰不是單純的軍事上的一個問題"},{"start":4188.806,"end":4215.686,"text":"也不只是說因為我們談了民主自由但是民主自由卻成了敵方進行內部滲透的一個窗口另外我們面對這樣的一個混合戰包括從軍事包括從經濟包括從我們的政治體制所面臨這樣的挑戰我們必須要提高我們的所謂的防護或者是在我們說的防禦的盾牌必須要有所升級"},{"start":4216.748,"end":4217.191,"text":"那為什麼我們要"},{"start":4226.119,"end":4254.994,"text":"為什麼要修法 因為過去我們談的單一的實體挑戰但是我們現在面臨的是複合的灰色威脅 複合性的挑戰包括網路滲透 認知作戰 以及在地的協力者那麼我們的過去的舊法 就是我們國安法過去的舊法我們的盲區是什麼 對於單純參與組織的這樣的一個相關的一個法則是沒有的另外的 中間人斷點也很難去追尋以及主觀意圖的舉證是有困難的"},{"start":4263.11,"end":4279.582,"text":"因為這樣的一個複合式的威脅,我們看到組織的滲透、政治作戰以及產生所謂的心理的這個政策,使得我們目前的法規已經沒有辦法提供面對這樣的一個新形式的挑戰,提供全面性的防護。"},{"start":4284.269,"end":4293.37,"text":"那我們現在目前的國安法所現行的防禦機制的盲區包括我們剛才提到舉證的困難 尤其是所謂的"},{"start":4293.952,"end":4304.655,"text":"主觀範議這部分那再來是單純的參與者以及中間者在這所有不管是參與或是發起組織發展我們現在目前是處理這樣的一個組織者但是對於中間比如說轉交資金還有單純的伺機而動的這些參與者並沒有明確相關的罰則依據再來是我們這個實質的防護跟懲罰"},{"start":4319.358,"end":4333.805,"text":"我們要等到這個所謂的有罪判決確定後才能把所有的這個所謂的針對這個軍公教人員的這個退休金才有辦法去完全把它退奉把它完全討回基本上"},{"start":4334.386,"end":4352.531,"text":"這使得在斷路上的防務機制是沒辦法彰顯那在網路的錯假訊息也是有面對這樣的問題那我們在舊法跟新法上的差別從這個規範的維度來看包括犯罪認定的標準在舊法在主觀意圖的危害舉證是比較困難的那新法的修訂他採納了"},{"start":4353.431,"end":4363.775,"text":"把客觀達到危險臨界點來做一個明確的修法內容的補充在防禦的打擊範圍之內過去針對僅限於發展組織跟洩密我們擴及到單純的參與組織斬斷了中間人相關執行跟執事在退休縫給予的剝奪過去當中"},{"start":4379.822,"end":4400.072,"text":"有罪判刑確定之後但是判決基本上它需要很長的時間新的新法只要宣示判決就停發一半等到三審定宴之後才正式剝奪言論跟數位的防衛這部分過去更缺乏的是在針對數位認知作戰以及錯假訊息的防線"},{"start":4400.692,"end":4427.309,"text":"那現在對於禁止鼓吹戰爭言論還有授權及時停止這個所謂的斷網這樣的一個作為來讓這樣的一個訊息不容易影響到我們的國家安全那我們從這個維度上 防線的維度基本上從這一次的修法第二條跟第七條很清楚看到從意圖到行為而不再糾結在過去以主觀的這個意圖而是在客觀上主以危害這個國家安全或者社會安定"},{"start":4427.689,"end":4452.496,"text":"就這個防禦系統就立即來啟動那我們看到旁邊這個圖這個縱向指的是國家安全的程度那在這個橫向的是我們講的行為發展的程度那過去當中我們比較多是在這個淡藍色的這個區塊那針對這個深紅色以及這個這部分的相關的涉及到國安的一個影響程度我們的法律是沒辦法去要做相關的防範那再次針對參與組織針對譬如說"},{"start":4455.439,"end":4465.454,"text":"只要是有參與組織就等於構成犯罪我們在面對這樣威脅的時候能夠讓這樣的挑戰跟威脅能夠起於在它的萌芽階段能夠加以所謂殲滅"},{"start":4467.423,"end":4487.959,"text":"那在捍衛民主心智這一塊這我們涉及到比如說言論自由還有這個所謂的這個言論自由以及認知作戰這樣的紅線在我們這次的修法第四條那言論自由不應該成為境外敵對勢力對於我們這個國家安全的一個挑戰尤其是涉及到這個對於戰爭的這個"},{"start":4490.461,"end":4508.924,"text":"鼓吹或支持跟倡議這也符合了國際的公正公約所提到的精神再來是我們的做法是在新法上不得以文字跟相關的圖畫、聲音跟方式來進行鼓吹我們所進行的這個是一個行政裁罰的部分"},{"start":4509.364,"end":4537.845,"text":"那我個人覺得就如同剛才前衛律師有提到其實這個是我們在面對這樣的一個面對挑戰行政可以處理的一個最適的方式那在數位盡控這一塊在斷網這部分其實有分成一般程序跟所謂的緊急程序那他所進行的也是一個這個發環的方式以及確保這個相關的證據的一個確保的機制這也是站在國家如何面對這個新形勢的挑戰必須採取的作為那在針對"},{"start":4539.335,"end":4567.021,"text":"背叛國家以及民主的代價這部分來加重嚇阻譬如說斬斷這個中間人這樣的一個行為以及針對我們的這個軍公教人員以及包括退休人員在針對這個所謂的犯法有涉及到國家安全這個加重提醒那針對退縫這一塊我覺得這個是有一定程度必要因為畢竟等到三省定言之後他所可以進行相關的追討是有他的困難度的"},{"start":4568.223,"end":4577.36,"text":"因此我們說在整個這一步的國安法的新的修法它是一個環環相控甚至說它並不是一個零散的法規修訂"},{"start":4578.257,"end":4595.033,"text":"包括從一開始 尋找破口 譬如八支一條以及針對組織的滲透 第七條跟第二條再針對認知作戰這塊包括網路這部分 第四條跟第四支一條那第十三條跟十五支一條 針對內部顛覆這一塊其實我認為這是一個環環相扣"},{"start":4599.657,"end":4617.526,"text":"是我們政府在因應新的挑戰可以去主動出擊國家安全的防護的一個作為那因此我的結論認為我們台灣是個民主國家那我們要提升我們自己民主的韌性以及提升我們民主的防禦性那我們更需要有一定程度"},{"start":4619.167,"end":4643.386,"text":"面對這些挑戰 強悍的法治基礎那過去當中我們是被動防衛我們現在其實是採取主動的主決所以面對這樣的一個煙消之戰我認為我非常支持的是我們要強化台灣的國安這樣的修法是必須要進行的 以上是我報告 謝謝下一位我們請蔣貴美副教授發言"},{"start":4649.04,"end":4669.136,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好因為時間只有8分鐘非常緊縮這個民主政治需要監督這個的確是真理因為上一次禮拜三第一場的公聽會機關的回覆非常簡略大概都是一兩頁這次回覆果然比較"},{"start":4670.457,"end":4687.297,"text":"比較有針對問題但是很遺憾的就是我覺得有些問題似乎沒有越編越清楚在這個因為機關的回覆非常多通常都是現場發放看到這個內政部有一頁裡面談到說"},{"start":4689.118,"end":4703.029,"text":"所謂的445號或者是644號跟這次的國安法草案修法是完全不一樣的因為國安法草案是針對鼓吹戰爭而違反構成要件的事後追陳而445跟644是事前"},{"start":4708.137,"end":4717.648,"text":"我覺得這句話有重大爭議我們曾經有一個首長在某個公開場合他說他強調的是台灣國這個叫不叫鼓吹"},{"start":4723.476,"end":4747.387,"text":"我想請教內政部什麼叫鼓吹 什麼叫倡議鼓吹倡議的明確化原則在哪裡這個必須清楚我們大家都支持國安我們更珍惜人權保障得來不易的成果我覺得這個的平衡點一定要非常清楚否則我們憑什麼資格做民主國家"},{"start":4748.663,"end":4756.294,"text":"好所以呢剛才在很多的論點裡面都提到了這次的修法是針對事後我請問哪一點是事後好我舉例說明在這個"},{"start":4765.543,"end":4785.352,"text":"在這個查案的四之一 我只是舉例 因為條文很多查案的四之一裡面 這條案大家手邊都有啊查案說 令網際網路平台提供者網際網路的內容提供者 或是網際網路的運用服務的提供者"},{"start":4786.792,"end":4802.459,"text":"對該內容幹嘛呢?限制瀏覽移除或者是使用帳號採取限制或終止服務的措施請問這個叫事後嗎?這百分之百是行政事前管制那為什麼我們機關可以大剌剌認為這叫事後?"},{"start":4805.055,"end":4827.213,"text":"真理是越變越明的法理是越來越清楚的這憑什麼叫事後就算你採的是罰緩的措施可是大家一定還記得2023年的時候2月21號 今天國防部不曉得在不在國防部當時有預告一個全民防衛動員準備法"},{"start":4830.164,"end":4845.177,"text":"當時因為也是一個修正草案他在預告的時候呢各界的反應非常反對強烈反對為什麼反對因為當中我隨便舉一條第十五條是當時反對最激烈的各界聲浪"},{"start":4846.238,"end":4867.453,"text":"完全無法接受因為當時的15條是說為了因應新聞跟不實訊息的處理所以呢訊息傳播動員準備分類計畫主管機關應對出版事業廣電事業網際網路平台應用服務提供者及新聞從業人員實施調查統計編組規劃當時只是調查編組規劃喔"},{"start":4875.696,"end":4902.09,"text":"這個就是管制 是不是事前 百分之百是事前不需要我們在座各位大員來認定任何人都知道這叫事前所以當時這個法案就噴頂掉了那今天這個法案再度出現在我們現在看到的國安法修正草案的四條之一幾乎是一樣的事前管制那請問如何解釋"},{"start":4904.747,"end":4924.035,"text":"所以相關機關的答覆都認為這是事後也許有的機關沒有提這一塊它閃避掉了算它比較聚會我們今天不必為了辯護一個政策而這個政策還沒有真正經過煽突我們叫塗脂抹粉這個是非常不好的文化"},{"start":4925.208,"end":4934.475,"text":"就算你45號又44號你全盡一切力氣去解釋說這個只是事前那我先請問你我們還有個744號"},{"start":4938.559,"end":4962.541,"text":"商業言論廣告的事前管制這個大家都知道商業廣告的管制它的限制會比較多它的人權保障門檻會比較更嚴格一點更寬鬆一點更寬鬆因為它商業但是你知道我們的744它事前管制是不是危險"},{"start":4963.618,"end":4971.441,"text":"仍然違憲我們就算不拿45號、644號我們拿744號它仍然違憲啊所以呢我們今天在談這個問題的時候我覺得大家不要一刀兩切要非常清楚國恩重要並不是犧牲人權換來的"},{"start":4986.587,"end":5011.248,"text":"我們憲法23條從行憲到現在那個條文始終沒有動徵求條文也沒有動所以憲法23條裡面的原理原則有被突破嗎有說你為了國家安全你可以封鎖部分人權嗎有說你可以釋權行政權介入來管制嗎四之一條是典型的行政權釋權介入的管制請問你憑憲法哪一條好 另外"},{"start":5014.963,"end":5027.019,"text":"我時間有限我只講重點刑法在民國108年5月10號公布增訂了115條之一115條之一當時的增訂就是蔡總統時代"},{"start":5034.026,"end":5051.697,"text":"當時的徵定,他說本章之罪,他指的是外患罪,外患罪從103到115之以,當時徵定他說適用於地區或對象,他不承認地區,因為南岸關係條例是地區推斷他的上位法,徵修條文,他是地區"},{"start":5052.952,"end":5071.022,"text":"他是憲法授權的兩岸關係條例所以我們刑法裡面呢當時一五之一非常清楚地區對象或大陸香港澳門境外敵對勢力或派遣之人什麼什麼這個等等一五之一修訂增訂了以後"},{"start":5072.163,"end":5099.946,"text":"我們必須檢視一個非常嚴肅的問題我們可不可以在行政法裡面譬如說國安法譬如說反滲透法譬如說情報工作法它的全稱好像叫國家情報工作法情報法我們可不可以在這些相關的非刑法的行政法制裡面增加了很多外患罪的構成要件那刑法的罪情法並除以何所存在"},{"start":5101.519,"end":5126.066,"text":"學法律的人在這邊非常多請大家夢著良心去思考你可以抵觸刑法裡面沒有的構成要件嗎你可以在這一些相關的行政法制裡面自己增加構成要件嗎更何況我最後要強調的一點我們在這些相關的國安法或者是反滲透法或者是勤工法它很多根本連構成要件都不是"},{"start":5127.287,"end":5143.273,"text":"成功法裡面的所謂的影響國家安全影響國家安全是個概念它連構成要件都不是我們可不可以區分什麼叫構成要件再來羅之勿進可以嗎 謝謝我們下一位請楊志傑教授發言"},{"start":5164.929,"end":5188.268,"text":"主席各位先進我是楊志傑我的報告分成兩部分一鼓吹禁止鼓吹戰爭言論二錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網首先第一部分禁止鼓吹戰爭言論的國際法基礎是公民政治權利公約第二十條一任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之"},{"start":5189.383,"end":5206.895,"text":"而根據該公約第11號一般意見書其所禁止的宣傳是可能導致或實際導致侵略行動的宣傳聯合國專家2022年報告也提到要對20條一做限縮性解釋該條的宣傳應解釋為對戰爭之煽動 incitement"},{"start":5213.052,"end":5236.769,"text":"由於公約第20條1涉及政治性言論自由的限制173個締約國中有15個國家對第20條1提出保留、理解或聲明包括歐洲國家、美國、紐約、紐西蘭、澳大利亞都明確表示不會制定法律落實該條而其他締約國對這15個國家的保留也不反對"},{"start":5238.595,"end":5253.125,"text":"高度保護言論自由的美國也反對該條在美國若要處罰煽動或倡議使用暴力或犯罪的言論美國最高法院要求必須一倡議者的行為直接"},{"start":5253.925,"end":5280.523,"text":"意圖直接煽動他人立即違法行為而該倡議的確可能會煽動此種立即違法行為因此美國沒有立法禁止戰爭言論另外美國最高法院2010年曾判決單純政治言論表達支持恐怖主義也不受處罰只有實質支持恐怖主義才可以處罰"},{"start":5283.198,"end":5304.15,"text":"聯合國人權委會對各國進行人權審查時通常不會對各國沒有落實第20條1提出意見甚至對俄羅斯攻打烏克蘭時政府散佈政治之宣傳也沒有評論聯合國的審查頂多希望各國撤回對該條之保留再看制定法律落實的國家"},{"start":5305.506,"end":5320.95,"text":"德國刑法典煽動侵略戰爭罪規定以公開方式或以散佈方式煽動他人實施侵略者可加以處罰注意條文採用的是煽動這個詞並非單純支持言論"},{"start":5324.38,"end":5343.973,"text":"芬蘭刑法規定於軍事危機或國際政治危機期間公開煽動外國對芬蘭發動侵略行動或使輿論支持侵略行為的聲明而明顯增加芬蘭陷入戰爭或成為軍事行動目標之風險者可加以處罰其強調必須該言論明顯增加戰爭風險才處罰"},{"start":5351.223,"end":5376.915,"text":"有處罰的國家大部分都是以刑事處罰戰爭宣傳也就是須由法院把關且只做事後處罰而不採取行政法行政院草案說基於刑法遷移性要採行政法這樣的結果會導致行政機關可以濫權開罰控制壓迫人民言論自由"},{"start":5378.288,"end":5387.59,"text":"因此倘若真要立法建議條文需要限縮一採用刑法固定用語公然傷禍二須該傷禍達到明顯增加戰爭風險者三加罰還改為罰金一級並非讓行政機關自己來處罰需由法院把關"},{"start":5399.687,"end":5416.901,"text":"第二部分錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網草案四之一規定內政部會商其他機關後可命下架兩種言論一鼓吹戰爭言論二錯誤虛假訊息或政治宣傳"},{"start":5419.329,"end":5439.197,"text":"由於涉及政治性言論受到憲法高度保障所以我們需從言論自由原則來審視此規定大法官釋字445號解釋指出即會有刑法禁止有事實足認為有危害國家安全社會秩序或公共利益之餘者這樣的規定對言論"},{"start":5441.258,"end":5461.946,"text":"的限制欠缺具體明確且大法官受到美國言論自由原則影響提出若言論並無造成明顯而立即危險之事實狀態也就是沒有危害急迫性就不可禁止草案4-1命下架的第一種類型"},{"start":5463.362,"end":5484.278,"text":"就是公開鼓吹倡議支持戰爭言論也就是前面第一部分所討論的前面第一部分我已經建議應該更限縮這種類型且須由法院以刑事程序處理若真要命下架也必須由法院審判後命禁止散佈"},{"start":5486.069,"end":5511.231,"text":"第二種類型是政治方面的錯誤虛假訊息我認為這一個類型有三種問題一其對錯誤虛假訊息沒有限定主題例如沒有限定影響選舉兒少色情恐怖攻擊或疫情防治這樣的範圍太大其他國家一般只會規定某些急迫危害的錯誤虛假訊息"},{"start":5513.473,"end":5532.385,"text":"有急迫危害性才要命下降二 其所指的危害國家安全或社會財政經濟安定的虛假錯誤訊息其實都沒有急迫危害性可以透過政府澄清說明來釐清不需要立刻下降"},{"start":5534.312,"end":5557.67,"text":"第三種類型公開為中共從事具有任何政治目的之宣傳也太過廣泛其不要求言論內容錯誤虛假只要求言論內容不能與中共立場一致否則容易被政府說是在替中共從事政治宣傳但政治言論受高度保障也看不出此種言論的急迫危害性"},{"start":5560.925,"end":5578.234,"text":"草案的立法理由引述了很多外國法律但其實都與外國法律設計不同各國對網路內容管制方式大致可分成四種類型第一完全自由放任如美國"},{"start":5579.949,"end":5598.795,"text":"草案引述的2016年反外國宣傳與假訊息法其實他只是要求政府機關積極澄清二要求平台自我管理如2022年歐盟數位服務法和英國的線上安全法他只要求你對平台檢舉平台趕快自己去處理"},{"start":5600.814,"end":5609.771,"text":"第三種模式是違法且擴散後果嚴重者可向法院申請請求法院命令下降例如法國2018年的對抗資訊操弄法"},{"start":5612.113,"end":5634.478,"text":"第四種如果是由政府部門直接命令下架者可分成兩種目前只有新加坡採全面試讓所有行政機關都有權命令附澄清說明或命下架其他國家通常只限於極少數的急迫危害性的種類例如兒少色情恐怖主義等才會讓行政機關有權命令下架"},{"start":5635.984,"end":5663.101,"text":"在程序上草案規定內政部要會商多個行政機關才可以命下架由行政機關命下架已經會有政府控制言論的問題草案第二項進一步規定內政部可以跳過這個這個多個機關會商程序自己直接命令封鎖網站賦予內政部過大權力容易濫權"},{"start":5664.482,"end":5693.703,"text":"我的結論是一禁止戰爭言論部分可以禁止但要限縮且需由法院把關二錯誤虛假訊息政治宣傳下架封網部分沒有立法必要謝謝各位我們下一位邀請謝正裕教授發言主席政府的代表"},{"start":5694.608,"end":5721.588,"text":"各位媒體朋友 各位學術界的先進針對這個今天列席的官員跨部會這麼多我們也可以看到這個法令的嚴肅性也因為嚴肅性 所以我們要特別謹慎來因應那我的感覺是整體的思維 行政部門的思維"},{"start":5723.337,"end":5748.817,"text":"回到了冷戰時期冷戰時期有一個很重要的國與國之間或者地區與地之間的一個很重要的理論叫政治現實理論政治現實理論就是一切用硬實力一切用所謂的冷戰的思維兼避輕野然後把對方劃入到一個敵對的陣營裡面去"},{"start":5751.663,"end":5780.831,"text":"結果當然這個問題很複雜有人就在思考說當年美國的凱南建立了大西洋公益組織把整個蘇聯圍起來到底產生了50年後是對是錯有可能當年蘇聯如果不是這樣的話他可能會芬蘭化而不是更加的共黨化這個就是一個冷戰思維的我們看到了很多"},{"start":5782.423,"end":5802.214,"text":"增加了很多行政機關的權力那有這麼嚴重嗎這個就是當年1950年代美國的麥卡錫主義麥卡錫主義當年就是有任何共產主義組織的名字都要登記"},{"start":5803.799,"end":5829.015,"text":"結果因為這樣的一個行政在這樣一個參議員的提議之後變成了參議院眾議院美國所有行政單位都在查這些事然後造成了一萬多人失業或者是被關或者離開這個國境包括很多科學家藝術界的包括文學界包括很多學術界的人"},{"start":5830.051,"end":5855.184,"text":"我們難道還要進行這樣一個寒蟬效應嗎再來我們看到第二點就是說刑法上已經有的東西而且刑法很嚴但是刑法要經過法院的審判的過程那你現在好像你有說敵人很嚴重威脅我們然後比刑法還輕這不是制限邏輯的矛盾嗎"},{"start":5856.42,"end":5877.098,"text":"所以我們認為這個美國有一個很有名的他講說法院作為一個程序的專家作為一個政治的局外人有理由比政府的官員還來得有資格來審查一切所謂的違法亂紀的事情我們再看下一個"},{"start":5879.389,"end":5905.908,"text":"司法人的解釋剛剛許多人講到了有利己而明顯的危險嗎因為時間的關係我有些就綜合的來講我要請問在座的國安局或者陸委會我們現在把修法裡面除了中國大陸之外又把港澳也劃進去我們近幾年來有多少港澳然後對我不利的組織的東西存在"},{"start":5907.045,"end":5934.201,"text":"我們難道不能夠用所謂的建構主義的方式把港澳的友人拉在一起嗎當年的國防部長余大偉他說我們為什麼要保障金門跟馬祖因為這是在戰爭戰略上的兩個好像螃蟹的大的夾子牽住中國大陸往所謂的台海這邊進攻的"},{"start":5936.363,"end":5960.982,"text":"我們認為港澳正是當前一直到現在它是政治上的戰略不可少的東西我們把港澳都劃進去了港澳有多少機關或者是進來查獲的東西到底有多少是因為跟港澳關係而讓台灣部分人淪陷的有這樣子勢力嗎我們再看看下一條"},{"start":5963.055,"end":5987.713,"text":"日本怎麼來因應這個所謂的這些錯假信息它有一個跨部會的東西那這個跨部會到最後是國家情報體系來作為整個網路上最後的審查這個特別是針對敵對或者不友善的那些部分而不是一般的民事的那個部分我們現在好像要付錢給內政部"},{"start":5990.157,"end":6017.724,"text":"內政部有哪一個單位呢內政部以後是交給警察交給刑事局嗎那這裡面錯綜複雜的東西有辦法嗎還是要重新來思考各個單位當中我們怎麼樣參考日本把各個部會的東西彙整到一個新的部門裡面來我不反對說目前網路上有許多的一些錯假訊息但是哪一個部會是最適合的"},{"start":6018.737,"end":6039.209,"text":"我們再往下看啊這個就是我剛剛提到的最後啊 最後因為要剝奪人的財產權 自由權 生命權這是一切民主國家視為最重要的甚至是不正智名的東西"},{"start":6040.188,"end":6067.686,"text":"那現在我們好像輕易的透過國安法就要把人民的財產權就要把人民的所謂的言論那個自由權就要剝奪掉了所有的世界的進步是一個民主的進步如果我們退回到50年代那是民主的退步啊那是對人民我們用這麼多的心血從50年代走到今天"},{"start":6069.059,"end":6085.094,"text":"我們卻要退 政治衰退 Decade回去到那個時代 尖閉青野然後國防預算不斷增加難道這是我們所有的文官願意看到的嗎我們再看看下一個下一個我想上禮拜"},{"start":6094.932,"end":6112.754,"text":"我自己是一個同軍,很高興看到總統在同軍節的時候在陽明山宣布說核二核三可以考慮如果大院、立法院重新審議一些所謂的核安的問題等等這些問題可以重啟"},{"start":6114.691,"end":6128.177,"text":"這是一個理性的思維我們也希望兩岸的部分是一個理性的思維所以回到一個建構主義的一個以國家安全的思維裡面來"},{"start":6129.879,"end":6153.513,"text":"這裡面告訴我們的是說那個社會關係而不是一切憑實力一個新的認知就是說我們要建構一切對我們有利的民意也好或者是國際聯盟也好產生這些國際的認同之後那是我們最有利的台灣堅守我們不是常常在這樣講嗎"},{"start":6155.194,"end":6173.929,"text":"台灣是站在世界民主自由的陣容裡面那為什麼我們自己好像要把它劃入到那個非常的好像要回到戒嚴的那個體制裡面去那我們能夠廣結自由民主國家嗎所以在2019年賴副總統當年他去了福士紀念館"},{"start":6182.15,"end":6196.699,"text":"這個這個鏡頭讓我們想到他心中有自由民主但是是不是我們的一切的作為如果說我們今天非常多的言論那美國有很多智庫很多基金會講說2027台灣很危險那我們跟著講這樣的話是不是就是武統就贊成武統那美國是不是敵對勢力這些人是不是敵對勢力"},{"start":6208.024,"end":6225.569,"text":"所以我們看到民主有問題民主政治的學者常講的一句話就是當民主政治有問題的時候你不應該用專制的方式來醫治它你應該用更大的民主的方式來醫治它以上報告請自教 謝謝"},{"start":6232.02,"end":6255.66,"text":"好 我們接下來請我們列席的與會機關代表看是否有回應與說明請問我們內政部有要再補充說明的嗎非常感謝我們主席以及我們今天所有與會的學者專家代表那麼今天"},{"start":6257.055,"end":6285.421,"text":"這公聽會我想非常有價值我們也聆聽了來自於不同的立場不同的觀點不同的學術理論上面對於我們在這一次國安法修法內容的一個指教跟指證我這邊還是再一次的跟大家強調一件事情我們現在面對的威脅跟敵人不是一般的政權也跟過去冷戰時期很不一樣"},{"start":6286.84,"end":6313.199,"text":"冷戰時期的背景在今天不會被重複但是我們的敵對的國家所運用的工具跟方法比冷戰時期更全面而且更具威脅性所以內政部所追求的並不是擴權我要再次強調也不是要限制民眾的政治自由表達的權利"},{"start":6315.441,"end":6339.366,"text":"而是我們不能夠放任整個社會面對這樣的威脅的時候我們有一種躺平的態度什麼都不做或者是就是看著它發生我想這個是我們民眾不會賦予我們這樣的一個偷懶的行為我想這個是行政部門很重要的角色所以國安法的修正"},{"start":6340.717,"end":6348.841,"text":"我們是在追求一個適度能夠防衛我們自己的武器就像改普已經換了衝鋒槍我們總得升級我們的裝備"},{"start":6353.137,"end":6379.602,"text":"那社會大眾對於我們面對治安我們也能夠去爭取預算來強化我們的防衛能力都同意去年的1月19事件我想大家記憶還猶新當時網路上非常多的模仿犯直接的就挑明了要在公共安全公共交通的場所"},{"start":6381.391,"end":6405.562,"text":"來攻擊那我們也立刻做這樣的一個言論的處理下架跟封鎖來避免整個社會的恐慌我想這麼具體個案的部分我們都必須要處理了更何況是對國家嚴重的所謂的武力攻擊武力統一武力侵略所以內政部要再次強調所謂武統台灣言論所謂的侵略台灣言論"},{"start":6410.198,"end":6427.878,"text":"它不是表演藝術它不屬於自由演練的範圍不屬於這樣的一個我們要保障的權利因為這件事情它會造成我們整個社會的不安而且會有非常嚴重的後果"},{"start":6428.559,"end":6447.536,"text":"尤其是中國目前的民族團結法跟宗教國家化這兩個法律再配同過去反分裂法等這些法律對台灣的社會已經造成了長臂管轄已經有非常多的我們在台灣我們自己的政治"},{"start":6448.797,"end":6468.431,"text":"我們的工作者不管是各個黨派你只要發表對中國不利的言論馬上就會被列管馬上就會被列為所謂的什麼幫兇什麼樣的一個要通緝的對象我想對方的國家用這樣的方式來攻擊我們我們不能夠沒有"},{"start":6469.532,"end":6490.678,"text":"防衛跟反擊的武器我想這個是我們在整個修法的時候最重要的一個思考所以我認為學術理論我們都尊重我們也都同意必須要辯論但是我們在面對這種邪惡軸心政權我們在面對我們現在這樣的一個敵人的時候我們現在的這個修法已經非常溫和了"},{"start":6492.098,"end":6515.992,"text":"非常溫和的,我們並沒有去剝奪民眾實質的權利我想這個是跟過去兩戰時期非常非常不同的一個情況我想這裡我要再做一次慎重的澄清那還是再次感謝主席跟各位學者專家所提供的意見內政部跟各部會我們還是會虛心受教,我們再來檢討,謝謝"},{"start":6523.356,"end":6552.074,"text":"好,我們還有其他的與會機關有要補充說明嗎?剛剛提到港澳的那個部分是不是有沒有港澳的什麼組織的狀況近年來對台灣產生危害所以我們這次修法把港澳都列進去沒關係,事後如果內政部要再補充說明的話再麻煩其他機關回應,有其他機關有要回應的嗎?"},{"start":6553.769,"end":6562.213,"text":"如果其他機關無其他回應說明,那我們接著二輪發言前我們先請王洪威委員發言,好那我們請王洪威委員"},{"start":6572.076,"end":6581.443,"text":"好謝謝主席以及今天的與會學者專家以及我們的官員那我想今天有關於國安法的修訂我們今天進入了第二輪"},{"start":6585.202,"end":6603.089,"text":"第二次的公聽會不好意思因為我的助理現在趕過來不過我想國安法修正真的非常的重要因為它涉及到一般的百姓人民百姓甚至包含公務人員以及我們的民伴當然"},{"start":6604.83,"end":6628.275,"text":"就說今天修正國安法我們當然可以以一個就是說現在以賴政府我們的政府把中國大陸視為境外敵對勢力也認為它不管是在武力上面或者在網路上面對我們有很多的威脅但是我覺得當我們在修正這些法令的時候因為它會影響人民的權益"},{"start":6632.156,"end":6646.986,"text":"所以如果單單只是就 就是說這是境外敵對勢力對我們不管武力威脅 網路威脅 種種威脅加大而讓我們的國安法或讓我們的行政機關一個大幅的擴權"},{"start":6648.047,"end":6663.206,"text":"這仍然對外界來說會有一些疑慮甚至他有沒有侵害民眾的權益那比如說我們在國安法第四條裡面徵地鼓吹戰爭言論的行政裁罰那到底什麼叫鼓吹"},{"start":6664.147,"end":6667.23,"text":"這個戰爭的言論或者是鼓吹武統的言論那當然今天如果說有一個直播主或者是網路民眾在說希望什麼被武統之類的這當然你們一定會把它視為說這個是鼓吹武統"},{"start":6684.927,"end":6698.267,"text":"但是所謂的鼓吹戰爭的言論或者是它的行為其實是定義是模糊的我舉例來說別說我們在一些影劇"},{"start":6699.724,"end":6716.598,"text":"就是影視劇情裡面拍攝相關的戰爭他有些是他編出來的想像出來或他根據現在就是民眾他的市場他所做的這種影視劇算不算鼓吹戰爭"},{"start":6717.819,"end":6735.379,"text":"那又或者這是直接這個網紅他會弄一些歌曲還有些是無厘頭的那當然還有些是有政治性的所以你趕快打過來趕快打過來請問一下這叫不叫鼓吹戰爭或者我們再做一些民間的兵推"},{"start":6736.5,"end":6747.751,"text":"或者是在一些YT頻道上我們也可以看到這些不管它是基於選舉目的、政治目的或者是它只是商業目的、商業行為這些的言論、影視、歌曲"},{"start":6753.436,"end":6776.794,"text":"那要怎麼樣來做定義而這個定義如果一旦由行政機關自己來做定義的時候那他會不會失於可能是屬於一個政黨或者他本身內場的去做裁罰那我剛才也有看到學者專家提出來了事實上我們在刑法裡面也有相關的規定跟法則"},{"start":6778.835,"end":6791.738,"text":"那這個是交給了司法機關交給了法院雖然我個人認為現在司法機關並不夠獨立但是無論如何我們至少在形式上司法機關是屬於比較獨立的單位但是現在變成由行政單位來做確定的話"},{"start":6798.24,"end":6813.281,"text":"那這個會讓一般的民眾或者說因為基於在選舉的時候好或者是在這個朝野他在一個競爭的時候他會不會好大家會心生覺得有不公平的地方好另外呢"},{"start":6815.043,"end":6835.122,"text":"事實上像過去這個社會法現在社會法搭配現在有所謂的鼓衝就是你不得有仇恨性的言論可是其實我們很多所謂仇恨性的言論也有很多很多不同的定義可能不同的團體"},{"start":6836.643,"end":6844.248,"text":"當他在宣揚他自己的一個主張的時候可能對立方就認為這是在仇恨其實這樣子大家告來告去永無休止反而造成社會的族群之間或政黨之間或不同的意識形態的民眾之間更加的對立我以社會法來說"},{"start":6863.479,"end":6872.845,"text":"你知道我們現在因為我可能沒有時間討論太多社委法的問題啊可是你知道社委法現在很多移送由警察可能漏業再增辦"},{"start":6874.206,"end":6895.2,"text":"八九層在司法機關通都不成立啊所以我剛剛講我們的界限是如果像這樣子完全會影響民眾他的權益這麼嚴重的法律我們可以不用司法機關來做最後的審判而變成由行政機關來做"},{"start":6898.221,"end":6922.128,"text":"這個處理跟這個處罰我認為這是對於行政機關的一個相當擴權好再給我一點時間這並不在我們今天的好像五大提綱裡面但是我覺得這個要特別提出來也就是對於公務人員如果你涉及國安法在這個有罪判決之日之前就先行提發半數"},{"start":6925.069,"end":6945.156,"text":"這個條文連權序部都覺得有疑慮因為權序部所提出來的是 他說過去以我們現階段你要停發他的退休金 退休給予 都是要等到他判決確定即便他是很嚴重的 不管他是貪瀆 圖利等等"},{"start":6947.757,"end":6973.798,"text":"但是為什麼唯獨國安法說你先停發半數那現在說法是說啊沒有關係啊如果你那個判決最後沒有確立的話我會還給你啊可是問題是在常常一個官司耗費時日如果你就立刻停發半數的話你對這些公務人員來說他的清白還沒有還給他他可能他的生活就已經先遭遇困難了"},{"start":6975.139,"end":6978.902,"text":"我們的法律怎麼會擴權擴到可以覺得隨隨便便去影響民眾的這樣權益可以去影響民眾的生活而還覺得OK啊 沒有問題啊"},{"start":6990.949,"end":7004.825,"text":"連全市部對這個事實上都有疑慮的意見我在看到相關的意見既然我們行政院各單位各部會全部附和沒問題沒問題如果有一天你今天現在有很多什麼"},{"start":7005.886,"end":7023.291,"text":"貪污圖利各種的這個法則你在沒有判決之時我就先給你停發半年的退休金我就給你停發你的薪水你可以接受嗎將心比心啊所以我希望說我們在國安法的修正裡面"},{"start":7024.671,"end":7046.108,"text":"那個大帽子那個大帽子就說哎呀這個中國大陸很可怕很可惡可是如果我們可以這樣無限的去擴張我們的行政權然後壓縮人民的權利甚至侵害人民的權利那請問一下跟我們過去的白色恐怖有什麼不一樣過去也是啊"},{"start":7047.009,"end":7054.451,"text":"匪諜就在你身邊啊所以到處抓匪諜每個人隨便的原本都說你是中共同路人都說你是在地協力者更進一步就直接拿國安法來辦你那你跟過去美國的麥卡錫主義有什麼不一樣呢到處在獵巫啊"},{"start":7067.304,"end":7094.117,"text":"所以在國安法的修正裡面我認為要切記的不要以所謂的就是反對或者阻擋來自於這位敵對勢力的滲透我作為一個大帽子但是它實際已經限縮了很多我們人民的權利甚至是侵犯人民的權利這是我們在修法的過程裡面一定要盡量盡量去避免的以上"},{"start":7101.099,"end":7114.824,"text":"接下來我們請問現場的各位專家學者是否有要二輪發言的好那我們就請陳立民律師二輪發言那我們二輪發言每位三分鐘"},{"start":7120.455,"end":7130.294,"text":"主席還有各單位的代表還有各位先進我想有關於鼓吹倡議支持戰爭言論就應該要受罰的這部國安法的修正"},{"start":7131.297,"end":7156.337,"text":"我們認為是有這個以國安之名行前世言論之實以國安之名侵害人權之實以國安之名行這個行政擴權之實所以有關於這樣的一個修法其實真的必須要審慎因為畢竟我們用中華民國的立法院的立法是要對付什麼我們中華人民我們中華民國的這個民眾"},{"start":7159.479,"end":7177.704,"text":"當我們這個中華民國的民眾他在一般的這個政策的一個討論或者是說這個政治的一個表態或者是參與了統獨的辯論或者是做戰爭風險的評估或者對於某些政策做了嚴厲的批評的時候"},{"start":7179.704,"end":7204.039,"text":"這時候就要面臨國安法的前置的時候對於我們人民的這個言論自由確實有非常大的影響再來我們談到第七條的這個加重刑法的部分對於罪行法定主義的一個規定裡面尤其是第七條的第九款跟第十款他特別提到我們人民財產權的部分凡是參與組織之後所增加的財產一律要沒入"},{"start":7205.231,"end":7230.593,"text":"這是什麼不分青紅皂白假設我參與了這個組織然後這個組織的人去犯罪然後因為我是這個協會的成員然後我的律師我這個去幫大家開庭的費用需要被認為是參與組織之後所增加的財產這個時候非常非常難界定這個已經影響到我們人民的財產那再來第二個部分是什麼"},{"start":7231.093,"end":7245.336,"text":"八字一條的部分所謂的再轉指示等等的這些規範其實也非常非常的不明確總而言之這部國安法的一個修法事實上是對什麼對我們人民權利非常大的影響"},{"start":7246.337,"end":7272.182,"text":"那之前已經有什麼在國安法之前做修正的時候我們因為當時在蔡英文時代是全面執政所以通過了非常多不明確的一個法律現在要一直行這個行政擴權的一個狀況裡面對於我們人民的言論自由對於新聞的發表自由對我們人民財產只有更多的侵害對於立法院他"},{"start":7272.702,"end":7294.389,"text":"一再應該是要對於什麼對於我們這個民眾應該要採取這個立法傷害最小的一個原則我認為這樣的一個修法事實上是倒退事實上是真的像如同我們這個信教授所說的就是麥卡錫主義讓我們民眾完全的限於寒蟬效應以上謝謝"},{"start":7309.255,"end":7332.473,"text":"主席各位在座的朋友我剛剛在談建國主義的時候絕對不是只有所謂的學術上的爭論他已經是在1980年之後談國際關係的主流的價值主流的理論甚至是運用出來的這是第一點要補充的第二點"},{"start":7333.956,"end":7355.088,"text":"建構主義跟政治現實主義的區別主要在哪裡建構主義認為說一個地區跟地區哪怕過去是敵對的國家跟國家之間不應該一直把所謂的敵對的硬實力不斷的強化而是應該建立非常多良性的規範"},{"start":7356.636,"end":7373.187,"text":"在這個良性的規範之下雙方不斷地往前進步減少可能不必要的危害戰爭衝突這是建構主義所要的我們過去兩岸之間有許多正向的規範"},{"start":7374.932,"end":7399.959,"text":"有許多經過政府跟政府或者是海基會海協會授權單位建立了很多正向的規範包括兩岸大學生的交流但是我們看看最近幾十最近十年左右陸生來台很多人都說他是一個正向的讓陸生接觸台灣的民主社會"},{"start":7401.139,"end":7429.093,"text":"結果現在入生不來了多少大學挨挨教這個就是一個建構性的東西我們現在捨棄建構性的東西而要用強化管制性的敵對勢力的這種所謂的政治現實主義所以我在這裡真的是不斷地也希望政府單位能夠多多的思考是不是我們跟國際的主流社會的價值"},{"start":7430.667,"end":7457.659,"text":"會不會越走越遠美國的自由之家常常把台灣的自由民主視為是非常高的我們這樣子的一個立法會不會又越走越遠你很支持我們的紐約的自由之家瑞典的世界和平組織公布出來的一個國家的軍力國防預算"},{"start":7460.304,"end":7479.579,"text":"應該是要平的還是有些國家不斷在增加這個東西都違背了真正世界和平的這一條路上去走的道路我想我提供的一點例子我時間還有一點我再舉一個例子當年911發生之後美國有一個talk show的他在電視上說"},{"start":7487.765,"end":7508.976,"text":"911固然是美國的大災難但是美國人遠在幾千公里之外用飛彈去打人家這種懦夫的行為對不對他這樣子在民族主義高漲的情況之下他講這個話沒有事是一個自由是一個言論自由的一個保障謝謝好那我們一樣接下來請我們的掌櫃美教授謝謝"},{"start":7520.07,"end":7546.651,"text":"主席因為這個議題實在是非常重要所以我們需要第二次發言第一個剛才有這個王委員提到說退休金剝奪這一塊退休金的部分在過去我們有非常多憲法未接的釋憲那它跟薪資的本質是不一樣的然後我們在這個草案裡面剝奪退休金的二分之一"},{"start":7547.412,"end":7572.349,"text":"他的構成要件到底是什麼他不是細誅於司法的審判這個構成要件在我看來是有嚴重問題的那當然很遺憾 權序部沒有好像也沒有邀吧所以他好像也沒表示意見所以事後希望能夠權序部看用什麼方式但是我覺得法理上一定要有一個非常清楚的說明"},{"start":7573.189,"end":7601.061,"text":"否則的話這個全國公務員我記得這個過去公務員有一個集體的訴訟那時候我還在監察院大概有二十幾萬軍公教全部集體訴訟當然最後大法官送訴781、782、783全部都不違憲但是那個法理上我覺得將來要接受歷史的檢驗甚至包含所及與否的問題甚至包含誠信原則到底有沒有抵觸信賴保護有沒有抵觸的問題"},{"start":7602.822,"end":7622.916,"text":"第二個問題 我覺得呢 剛才一直我有強調一個觀點刑法是最刑法定主義 所以他一定要系諸於他明確的定義跟構成要件跟法院審判那我們現在是在相關的行政法令裡面"},{"start":7623.817,"end":7639.811,"text":"去加了很多構成要件而這些構成要件有的根本不是構成要件它甚至只是個概念說你危害國家安全這麼寬鬆 這麼不確定甚至抵觸明確性原則的概念"},{"start":7641.001,"end":7658.08,"text":"他甚至可以在各個不同法裡面各自去定我覺得全部要回到刑法去檢視刑法裡面的外患罪103到115之一請大家好好的看它的構成要件到底是哪些理處的我覺得根本不在討論範圍第三個問題呢"},{"start":7662.344,"end":7689.393,"text":"當然這次增列了這個行政法的部分但是行政法的部分上一次第一場的時候我有提過在監察院的時候我曾經提了一個這個柴水表案那這個目前網路上都找得到官網都掛在上面後來被國際人權組織的學者專家說我們違反了明確性原則所謂的散播謠言它的定義是不清楚的"},{"start":7690.165,"end":7708.459,"text":"而可以留之入罪這個問題到現在還沒有解決到我離開到現在這麼長的時間沒有解決沒有修法我們何有信心會認為這個草案可以做到行政法的明確性原則我剛已經提了所謂的鼓吹是什麼"},{"start":7709.893,"end":7732.45,"text":"所謂的倡議是什麼連定義都不清楚你的裁罰要件到底是什麼我想時間有限但是呢最後一個問題剛才在第一輪的發言裡面有提到全民防衛動員準備法當初會有那麼大的爭議那現在很喜歡又回到草案裡面的四支一條"},{"start":7733.931,"end":7759.229,"text":"這個爭議解決了嗎 完全沒有解決你要行政權事前 行政認定的自我標準去剝奪人民的基本權所以請大家回到憲法23條什麼叫做法律保留原則 什麼叫比例原則什麼叫做性愛保護原則這些基本原則在憲法23條不可能撼動的情況之下請找出依據 好 謝謝"},{"start":7769.448,"end":7792.227,"text":"好那我們今天的發言就到這邊感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見那所有初期初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料我們除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家的參與謝謝大家今日的公聽會到此結束現在上會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}