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宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員國防部顧立雄顧部長"},{"start":1660.563,"end":1663.944,"text":"副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃上將朝務次長楊基榮楊長次全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文龍石參事政務辦公室孫立芳孫主任"},{"start":1688.806,"end":1713.806,"text":"政治作战局胡瑞迅胡副局长军备局林文祥林局长主计局谢祺贤谢局长军医局陈元浩陈局长战略规划司黄文祺黄司长资源规划司蓝静婷蓝司长"},{"start":1715.814,"end":1744.414,"text":"法律事務司吳義聖吳司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購司趙雅萍趙主任人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長"},{"start":1746.718,"end":1758.926,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權參謀長"},{"start":1774.179,"end":1800.125,"text":"憲兵指揮部文念忠參謀長入軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長軍事情報局李永康李執行長電訊發展室林振維林執行長國防大學教育長李承忠李教育長"},{"start":1802.077,"end":1822.52,"text":"國家中山科學研究院副院長羅益中羅副院長補充介紹陳俊宇委員請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定"},{"start":1826.806,"end":1833.732,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部長顧立雄報告國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態平衡評估並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":1855.019,"end":1876.167,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今日應邀向大院貴友委員會就國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態評估實施專案報告感謝各位委員對各項國防施政推動的側面與支持面對印太區域安全情勢劇烈變動"},{"start":1878.328,"end":1896.468,"text":"及中共對我軍事威脅日趨嚴峻,強化國防有其必要與急迫性國軍軍事投資計畫細菌整備的評估,並依循行政院中層施政計畫作為未來財力需求的依據除每年的公務預算外,也會視當前"},{"start":1898.632,"end":1919.976,"text":"急迫性戰備時需,循預算法第83條,遍列特別預算。國安部本與中央政府行政一體理念,在積極妥慎規劃國安政策之際,基於兼顧政府施政與財政前提下,尋求橫貧。見請大院長點力支持"},{"start":1920.854,"end":1930.684,"text":"接續由主席局局長謝啟賢中將就今天的專報主題延期與現況實施報告,進行各位委員不吝指教,謝謝"},{"start":1933.76,"end":1955.357,"text":"就等一下的報告我想今天的報告有書面的資料我們請各委員可能參照我們的書面報告那另外我們今天會定這個題目很重要的一個因素是因為我們對於軍事投資計畫尤其在近期我們因應周邊區域局勢的變化我們希望"},{"start":1956.138,"end":1969.029,"text":"如何在這個部分跟我們整體的財政負擔的這個能力希望可以有動態平衡的評估專報所以除了主計單位以外非常重要的還有站規師還有整評師然後還有"},{"start":1973.228,"end":1996.618,"text":"相關的單位可是我們今天看到的報告內容第一他應該在規定的期限是禮拜五就要提出來可是我們到禮拜天的中午11點才拿到這一份報告第二我們需要的這些詳細的這個規劃因為我們都說我們做了非常多的縝密的規劃所以如果這個沒有辦法提出來"},{"start":1997.298,"end":2011.049,"text":"今天提出來的講的還是可能我們的特別預算或者在相關的預算這樣是以偏概全所以我們還會另外安排時間再次安排專報那今天就請主計局長請回我們等一下就開始進行"},{"start":2021.915,"end":2036.783,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝趙偉有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":2056.263,"end":2082.139,"text":"部長早上禮拜我們針對國防特別條例進行了三天密集的審查各黨的委員都提出了寶貴的意見來作為交流國防部也盡可能就可公開的部分進行了說明但比較遺憾的是我們全案幾乎是沒有辦法達成共識法案現在進入一個月的協商冷凍期"},{"start":2083.18,"end":2103.379,"text":"那條例和預算什麼時候能夠通過都還是未知數但是我們國防建軍是有系統性和完整性的一個規劃即便我們授權國防部先行簽署是向個案的這個發架書那也是代表程序往前進行了一步那今天我想再就其中兩個議題來和部長您相加"},{"start":2108.163,"end":2127.694,"text":"討論那也請您說明他其中的一個急迫性首先我們這幾天最關心的還是我們所面臨的這個發家書危機其中最關鍵的這個海馬仕多館火箭系統他的這個首期款支付期限原本是明天3月31就到期了那"},{"start":2129.212,"end":2156.521,"text":"美方恐怕也很難給我們延期支付的一個彈性所以首先在我們雙方密切的這個協調之下昨天晚上傳出美方同意讓我們展延的這個消息但現在這個條例和預算案都還沒有通過一旦錯過了這個窗口我們在程序成本甚至在產線排序上可能都還是會受到一定的影響"},{"start":2158.382,"end":2174.841,"text":"有關海馬市首期款支付的一個問題,美方是什麼依據給我們例外處理?實際上我們可以爭取到多久的時間?跟委員報告,美方這一次是最後同意引用那個"},{"start":2178.172,"end":2197.006,"text":"安全援助管理所冊裡面有關緊急生效的條款緊急生效?對,他同意引用緊急生效條款,然後展延至美方跟合約商預約之後我們大概可以爭取到多久的時間?"},{"start":2199.725,"end":2224.773,"text":"現在要看他跟合約商預約的一個狀況那現在只能夠預估啦,預估應該可以到五月下旬五月下旬,好那目前這個展延支付所期款的這個做法是否能夠確保我們在交裝期間還有購置成本乃至於後續的這個訓練排程上不會受到影響"},{"start":2226.4,"end":2250.552,"text":"現在另外有一個重點,就是因為美商一月之後的五天之內我們就要付這個日子是比較緊的,也就是說美方跟他的合約商一月之後五天內就要付款我們是在推估這個日期,剛剛講的五月下旬所以手機款如果不能夠獲付的話,那當然就會影響到那個"},{"start":2251.921,"end":2263.026,"text":"整個我們的排成因為我們相關的這些排成如果能夠納入到我們整個"},{"start":2264.901,"end":2294.201,"text":"整個跟因為現在全球都譬如說以海馬斯為例這個全球目前都有在遞送這個需求那我們要納入首批的採購的序列那我們如果能夠落入納入首批的採購序列的話那近期有美方統一項合約上預約的話那就會儘早啟動這個產線的生產那越早預約當然越早交貨好那也請我們國防部"},{"start":2294.921,"end":2312.004,"text":"能夠掌握這個相關的期程那後續條例通過之後的預算審查審議可能還需要一段的時間那國防部是否能夠確保一旦預算順利通過後能夠加速撥款的程序表示我們對此案的一個重視"},{"start":2313.607,"end":2329.945,"text":"我們要因為要能夠撥付款項要預算能夠通過預算如果不能夠通過可能在戶口上就會有問題"},{"start":2333.142,"end":2347.288,"text":"現在是條例案嘛條例案通過以後我們要送預算案進來那當然就希望預算案能夠儘速通過等預算通過了好那其他三項已經簽署發價書的這個購案包括這個自走炮還有脫勢飛彈標槍飛彈並沒有獲得這個展演"},{"start":2351.149,"end":2378.568,"text":"那什麼時候會遇到這個相同的問題我們有沒有這個先預期我們現在已經同意那個授權簽署所以現在簽署的部分沒有什麼太大的問題那接下來當然就是也看跟美方爭取是不是一併能夠在那個合約上預約之後再來付首期款這樣子好"},{"start":2380.356,"end":2395.93,"text":"那假使我們未來遇到重要的軍售案件預算通過之前美方無法同意給我們展延的狀況那我們國防部和行政院是否有嚴理支付款項避免這個預約時間延宕的一個做法我們有一個"},{"start":2406.302,"end":2432.578,"text":"幾個可能,如果真的不行,第一個就是說如果特別條例能夠通過那我們就提預算進來,那如果預算案還沒有過但我們是不是能夠獲得一個等於說依照獲得授權在預算法的84條,讓我們能夠先行支付這可能是一個方法,就是說條例通過但預算案還沒有過"},{"start":2433.88,"end":2447.62,"text":"讓我們同意讓我們先行支付,這是第一個第二個當然如果要重用到第一、二預備金的話這可能現在有一個問題,因為我們一百一十五年的總預算"},{"start":2449.572,"end":2462.502,"text":"還沒有互為審查所以依照預算法的54條在總預算沒有審查通過的情況之下沒有辦法動之第一、二預備金所以還是要等預算通過"},{"start":2468.03,"end":2483.483,"text":"就這個特別預算的部分有一個方法當然就是條例通過預算案馬上會送進來預算案送進來的時候預算還沒有通過的情況之下是不是可以同意我們動資先行動資一部分這樣子"},{"start":2484.904,"end":2497.919,"text":"那這樣就比較不會延誤到所以當然我們還是希望預算案能夠盡早通過那預算案如果沒有通過我們就條例通過以後提出預算案的時候就請求能夠先行動之這樣好"},{"start":2500.061,"end":2514.341,"text":"另外我想跟部長您討論在院版條文當中有一款是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備說明當中包括有寫到防範共軍海空封鎖切斷補給"},{"start":2515.763,"end":2531.325,"text":"快速提高各式戰備的存量以及我們興建各式軍備產線等等這也結合到我們先前討論的這個暫時很有可能遭遇到航道封鎖或是陷入長期消耗戰的這種情境當中"},{"start":2531.986,"end":2559.599,"text":"那我們必須在國防自主的這個量能上有一定的韌性來應對這部分我想請教部長如果我們沒辦法透過特別預算一次性的來提高我們本土軍備的這個產量和存量那必須改以年度公務預算分年來籌建那實際上會有多少多大的一個這個差距跟委員報告主要就是說"},{"start":2561.226,"end":2589.205,"text":"我們這次會把它編入特別預算來一次性的投資建制武器裝備彈藥跟火災原料還有滑射藥的這個14條生產線來能夠擴大生產的能量主要就是因為我們如果按照我們現在我們上次有報告按照深湖基金來編列那一年只有4億這個要幾十年才能夠要符合才能夠我們現在要建設14條產線的規模"},{"start":2590.926,"end":2606.945,"text":"那另外一個方法當然就是說我們用這個年度預算來編列那年度預算我們在今天的報告裡面事實上也有提到就是說在我們的持續案裡面我們未來三年的"},{"start":2610.388,"end":2633.669,"text":"預估這個需求案大概是五千七百億就是說持續案總共一百六十三我們大概列舉了幾些重要的案件那如果就這個未來三年要付五千七百億那一年平均下來是一千九那我們以一百一十五年為例我們的軍頭的預算是一六"},{"start":2635.711,"end":2650.461,"text":"那可以納尾新增案是84那84案裡面我們又有很多新增案是還沒有沒有把它納入特別預算的那就是用年度預算那這些年度預算有"},{"start":2651.461,"end":2667.554,"text":"把他納入了這些相關的新增的案項,那個部分就要700那沒有含,這是沒有含我剛剛提到那些就是我們要一次來籌措特別預算來建的各式的生產線,14條的生產線的話那這樣子勢必會排擠到這個生產線的建制的這個我們的急迫性那"},{"start":2676.701,"end":2691.037,"text":"那如果又把它擺入年度預算,那除非我們的國防預算要大幅的增加,那這個大幅增加今年的比例已經到達百分之十八了,一百一十五年度嘛"},{"start":2691.838,"end":2704.131,"text":"雖然還沒有審議,但是已經到18%所以在年度預算這樣子,我們一方面又有新增的軍事投資那如果再把整個彈藥的14條生產線擺入的話,我想這空間會幾乎是沒有"},{"start":2711.659,"end":2730.5,"text":"謝謝部長您的回答,我們國防安全不應該是有冷凍期,尤其行政院在去年11月底就提出特別條例,美方也在去年12月中就知會他們的國會,我們在3月初才付為審查。"},{"start":2731.741,"end":2745.667,"text":"那即便已經先授權簽署四項的這個發價書程序上仍然就和時間在賽跑那這部分我也請我們國防部在協商期間持續和在野黨和社會大眾來做溝通希望能夠讓這個"},{"start":2747.848,"end":2764.604,"text":"特別條例還有預算審查的程序 競速的推進也確保後續內容能夠通過的完整性讓我們強化這個防任性的相關規劃都能夠包含在內以建構我們可以嚇阻共軍所需的相關戰力"},{"start":2765.825,"end":2790.277,"text":"這邊也特別因為剛剛委員問到這一個彈藥的部分因為台美雙方有不斷在討論這些事情的時候我們一直要落實這個實戰化的訓練我們實戰化訓練結果實彈射擊的訓練的品質跟數量不斷增加那我們也要提高我們的戰備存量因為這美方我想我們台美雙方都一再認為我們可能會面臨一些"},{"start":2793.959,"end":2814.295,"text":"我們道義國家面臨一些封鎖的環境之下我們一定要不斷提升我們的戰備的一個存量另外就是暫時會有高消耗所以這些都是希望能夠把它編入我想這個都是大家根據作戰的需求做一個整體的規劃就這個部分也要請"},{"start":2816.697,"end":2821.601,"text":"所有委員部分草原都能夠予以支持好 謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝我們接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我請顧部長顧部長"},{"start":2846.966,"end":2863.562,"text":"是 羅委員部長早 部長全國人民所關注的這個海馬式多管火箭系統的這個首期款的展演那昨天終於是傳來的這個好消息那我想國防部應該是盡了很大的努力所以美方呢終於呢同意要來展演了"},{"start":2864.182,"end":2887.737,"text":"那當然剛剛我有聽這個陳俊宇有提到其實除了海馬仕之外其實還有我們的M109A7這艘炮啦還有標槍跟這個托式飛彈等等其實這些也是在這個月底呢其實都是要來支付這個首期款其實就是在明天了嘛就是在明天嘛發價入簽署之後那現在如果都以"},{"start":2888.317,"end":2913.882,"text":"引用這個緊急條款的話那現在都如果能夠都展現到跟美國跟廠商一約之後我們就還有還有一個時間對目前我們所知道就是只有海馬市呢就是剛剛部長你有提就是引用這個安全援助手冊的緊急生效然後可以延到這個五月下旬可是其他的到目前為止因為明天其實也要來做這個支付手續卡的最後"},{"start":2915.002,"end":2934.553,"text":"我們也跟他一起商量有商量其實有通過嗎?他有答應嗎?後面這三項我們在協商這一次emergency case implementation的時候美方表示另外幾個必須要等到他們處理完之後才會跟我們做討論"},{"start":2936.047,"end":2962.202,"text":"所以您是意思說目前他只同意的是只有海馬市只有海馬市對 像其他的這M109A7自走炮等等這些到目前為止都還沒有訊息嘛 是不是對 但是他還沒有說要在3月30號以前付款啦就這個部分的管項我們跟他簽署以後我們現在還在跟他商量所以看看是不是還在跟他商量 就這三項的話其實在月底還沒有說押在押在月底要付這樣"},{"start":2962.822,"end":2981.593,"text":"OK那如果是說這個我們的國防特別條例沒過然後預算案沒過後續呢會影響到的這個軍購的這個進度到底會影響到還有哪些項目啊請問除了我們現在所知道的目前這些之外還有沒有其他的項目會受到影響"},{"start":2983.5,"end":2988.142,"text":"您是說軍購的部分嗎?軍購的部分現在公佈的我們拿到四項的發價數現在還有一項是Artists的700"},{"start":2995.68,"end":3020.579,"text":"IM跟RTX600的ISR那這個部分還沒有拿到拔價書拿到拔價書之後我們當然還是希望授權我們簽署授權我們簽署以後關於首期款的部分我們也是再跟他商量總共大概跟委員報告一下大概整個現在這個應該是四個案"},{"start":3021.701,"end":3029.098,"text":"四個案加起來大概是需要七千九百多萬的美金大概是有幾款"},{"start":3031.645,"end":3055.315,"text":"這四個案要七千九百萬美金的稅我們計算結果差不多是七千九百二十幾萬我在請教部長剛剛部長有提到說我們舉海馬仕好了目前的話大概會讓我們會延到這個五月底如果到那個時候條例沒過預算沒過美方還會再讓我們一再延嗎有可能嗎"},{"start":3056.275,"end":3074.157,"text":"如果沒有辦法延的話,到時候會有什麼樣的後果?這個部分就要跟委員會比較困難他如果已經跟這個他的合約上預約了之後那這個基本上完成預約以後,因為為了要有相關的備料啦相關的這些初期準備"},{"start":3075.018,"end":3095.059,"text":"那這個部分可能展現的可能性就不高那所以我們大概預估他大概完整在五月下旬所以我剛剛有提到就是說如果能夠通過特別條例那我們送進預算之後雖然預算還沒有過即使預算還沒有過我們那樣是不是能夠授權我們先行支付這個部分的款項這樣"},{"start":3096.761,"end":3114.461,"text":"可是這還是不確定性嘛對不對是我們希望希望能夠先行支付可是到時在審查的時候是不是又有一些意見那還有款源的部分就是說因為有七千九百多萬差不多合二十五億台幣的這個"},{"start":3116.536,"end":3141.407,"text":"款項 那這個款源要從哪裡來 這可能我們也要思考一下是 所以這都是一個蠻複雜的這個工程我也希望說在野黨能夠了解國防部的這個難處就算說我們現在展演到五月底可是如果五月底以前我們國防特別條例沒有順利通過的話其實受的影響是非常大的因為美方不可能讓你再次的這個展演"},{"start":3143.348,"end":3156.592,"text":"好那在上個禮拜的時候呢我們花了三天的時間來審查國防特別條例其實那時候呢我有看到是在野黨的他刪除了很多的這個項目他說其實這些其實可以編列到這個公務預算裡面比如說我看到就是說我們的防空反彈道這些全部都沒有了然後還有這個AI跟這個C5"},{"start":3166.975,"end":3184.601,"text":"ISR系統也全部被刪掉了所以該部長其實在回答陳俊宇委員的時候其實說得很清楚我們的這個公務預算其實空間並不大那說實在我這邊有做了一個圖像這個國防部115年最初編列了5614億那5614億是分配到人員維持軍事投資跟作業維持"},{"start":3192.964,"end":3220.825,"text":"像人員維持的話我們比114年度那最初的預算是增列了192億那其實包含了114年度核定的調增的各項軍職人員加急喔在聯黨口口聲聲說要照顧這個軍職人員可是到目前為止已經214天了這個預算案到目前為止都還沒有審議所以這些都是被卡住的那再來還有作業維持我們編了100"},{"start":3222.847,"end":3226.949,"text":"1990億其實就是為了要因應這個敵情的威脅陣列這個彈藥跟零附件的這個籌補等等而且是比去年增加了514億那再來就是提到這個軍事投資的部長剛剛有說是我們編列了1616億其實黃文綺中將在上個禮拜一直在強調這個東西一直在強調這個東西"},{"start":3248.479,"end":3266.087,"text":"那我們除了配合軍購案付款期程我們建立了232億之內之外呢其中我們扣除優先支應已經簽約的持續案1532億之後呢其實我們真的只剩下84億那84億如何去承載我們這個國防特別條例裡面這些在野黨認為應該要編列到這個國防預算國防這個"},{"start":3274.151,"end":3292.383,"text":"一般的公務預算裡面真的是做不到你只是讓這個整個這個我們建軍準備的這個時程整個是延後了所以這個部分我剛剛也有聽部長再提為什麼沒有辦法列入這個一般的公務"},{"start":3293.123,"end":3303.215,"text":"公務預算裡面那再來我們要提到的就是說好那在3月中的時候我們其實我們二讀通過了這個718億的這個總預算可是這718億的總預算裡面根本不含一毛錢是跟國防預算有關係的"},{"start":3311.485,"end":3330.187,"text":"所以等於就是說國防特別條例卡住了然後這個呢總於上也卡住了根本是沒有辦法動美其名就說好我們已經送到委員會來做審議實際上我們很清楚在野黨東挑西剪說實在的"},{"start":3330.948,"end":3355.032,"text":"整個國防的這個軍事投資目前是完全是看不到一毛錢這個部分的話我在想國防部應該也要很清楚的讓國人知道那甚至我們最近有接到一些支持者他們就說其實上個禮拜三天的這個國防特別條例的這個審議很多人都在看直播"},{"start":3355.572,"end":3374.732,"text":"很多人都看直播他說看了這個三天都很清楚都很清楚為什麼我們需要國防特別條例可是再也打好奇怪他們到現在還是認為說這個部分國防特別條例你這個部分可以挪到這個一般的公務預算連一般的民眾幾乎都"},{"start":3375.773,"end":3395.411,"text":"經過三天都很清楚到底怎麼一回事可是我們就覺得很奇怪在野黨一直都不是很清楚到底怎麼回事為什麼我們要國防特別預算我們為什麼沒有辦法編到這個一般的公務預算清清楚楚已經講了三天了那我今天呢我也把它把這個稍微做了一個整理這次的跟在野黨"},{"start":3397.093,"end":3413.566,"text":"的委員這邊呢再拜託因為時間真的非常的緊迫國家是我們自己的我們投資國防其實就是投資和平這是一個大家都都有的這個觀念全世界"},{"start":3414.266,"end":3422.791,"text":"都在增加這個國防預算唯有我國的在野黨用盡所有的力氣來東挑西撿故意拖延造成這個整個的這個建軍整備的這個過程其實是整個是延宕的其實全民都在看"},{"start":3435.178,"end":3459.383,"text":"好 國防部真的是非常的辛苦 三個禮拜用盡了 講到沒出聲講到已經 我看黃文綺中將的這個講到整個很沮喪都沒有辦法讓在野黨了解的這個狀況說實在的全民都在看啦大家都覺得說真的不需要這樣子 台灣只有一個好 以上謝謝謝偉"},{"start":3463.327,"end":3466.408,"text":"謝謝 接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3486.571,"end":3509.924,"text":"部長早安是陳委員長剛才主席講昨天中午才收到我們部裡的報告實際上部內的修正版是下午3點58分才到所以我們也不得不配合部裡的同仁把內部的資料重新再做了一點修正剛才部長提到了就是海馬斯這個確實是對我們國家是很重要的但在2026年"},{"start":3512.345,"end":3535.456,"text":"在这个国际上对美国采购海马斯的国家只有一个就是瑞典那么数量不大那请教一下我们的海马斯的下单呢如果是美方对这个制造厂商谈我们是单独单一国家采购还是美方会考虑未来还有其他国家合并采购因为这里面有一个时间的弹性"},{"start":3541.119,"end":3547.786,"text":"我們海馬仕的這個案子目前跟安和局在協調的時候他們告訴我們是我們還跟其他六個國家一起預約"},{"start":3553.319,"end":3576.248,"text":"所以說是跟其他六個國家一起預約嘛那在這裡面也就是說預算是有一個彈性的空間那因為是共同預約所以很多的就是研發成本是要分攤的嘛是不是這樣子那同樣就是結案要一起結案並不會單獨交完以後我們的預算就是付的款就可以直接結案的"},{"start":3578.068,"end":3602.234,"text":"報員您知道我們雖然是一起預約但是它的生產是依照它的各批去分配它的額度也就是我們經常知道的Lock 1,Lock 2,Lock 3這個序列去做那我們的部分當然也跟過去的軍購案一樣是在我們的交易完了之後沒有任何衍生的法律問題以及財務問題的時候做結案的動作"},{"start":3605.26,"end":3627.237,"text":"我們希望能夠掌握這個因為過去監察院曾經在這上面因為看到我們雖然是裝備交運完了那個尾款還有結餘但是因為跟美方的溝通過程中間其他國家還沒有結案所以那個錢還不能夠從我們在美國的帳戶回到我們國內這個希望我們也能夠跟監察院這部分做溝通"},{"start":3627.977,"end":3645.219,"text":"這個部分跟委員做了說明,我們在109年的建案作業規定裡面,針對結案的條件的這個部分,我們已經跟在先前就已經跟審計部達成一個基礎共識,就是我們在最後一批只要不是遇到法律問題的"},{"start":3646.4,"end":3661.378,"text":"那我們會要求美方在最後一批的時候把錢一併匯回那如果是遇到法律問題的時候則依照美方法律問題處理的方式來界定後續的時間但是這個案子就會在那個時候做一個現況結案"},{"start":3662.942,"end":3684.476,"text":"很好我们肯定我们对美方的沟通因为过去在审计监察中间常常把这个认为是我们国家就是我方要单一承担责任其实这个是涉及到美国内部这个管制的管理的方法下面这张图片我们是对整个我们军事投资计划与财政负担能力的评估那还是前提一下"},{"start":3685.529,"end":3713.116,"text":"这个编列特别预算一次性统筹建立战力那么115年的国防预算到达GDP的3.32百分比我们的预算需求的本质是建立韧性及不对称战力那么十年建军武林兵整过去在这个贵部的说明中间也讲得很清楚那我们希望在而后聚焦就是给我们一点弹性的时间并不仅止于一直强调LOA"},{"start":3714.156,"end":3738.804,"text":"其实如果我们在军总提出这个构想经过国防部的同意报到行政院获得肯定也就是说LOR for PNA或者是LOA这个过程的时间将来可以纳入让我们立法院的同仁了解这是一个弹性的时间而不是等到最后看到美方国会通过LOA签署这个时候拨款付款的时间非常短"},{"start":3739.324,"end":3767.318,"text":"那下面这个我就不做下面因为昨天下午这个部内才送来的这个资料就是我们讲到后续公务预算全售其零件维持费我们看到一个有潜在的风险这个我下去后会跟这个组织局长做一个沟通在这边我们不做延迟上说明或解读的认差这个年度预算维持被压缩会产生什么结果"},{"start":3768.098,"end":3782.194,"text":"那么现有装备的战备水准有没有直接影响到或是后续后勤整个的料配件一次发现短缺的现象那么降低年度预算弹性跟规划的品质"},{"start":3783.055,"end":3798.122,"text":"延後壓縮新裝備後來因為我們的裝備一定有個重疊期並不是新裝備一到舊的就太足所以在新舊裝備重疊過程不只是人員轉換訓練轉換料配件的消耗會比較大像這個"},{"start":3800.285,"end":3814.835,"text":"M1A2坦克车到了但是Oshkosh的拖车平板拖车还没到那将来还有一些料配件这个都我们关注希望支持让陆军能够在这个接装训练的过程中能够顺利完成立刻提升战备"},{"start":3815.655,"end":3837.993,"text":"那下面这个呢就是我们如何解除潜在风险我们是列出了一些这个都是需要大家进一步的讨论我相信啊我们在野的同仁啊跟主计局也好在站规室也好我们欢迎啊我们大家一起啊共同做一点沟通我们也希望在这个政党协商过程中间能够把一些认知"},{"start":3838.996,"end":3852.359,"text":"有解释落差或者是贵单位还有地方可以强化把时间压缩这个空间我们大家一起努力我现在把这个时间留给这个组织局长您做一点回复是"},{"start":3854.181,"end":3873.467,"text":"委員好 感謝委員的指導有關國防財力資源的從我們爭取到後面的運用我們會盡可能的讓它發揮最大的效益剛剛委員特別提到說包含作業維持費與軍事投資到底它要怎麼樣的一個比例其實我們最近幾年"},{"start":3874.167,"end":3894.92,"text":"不管是在作業維持費不管在軍事投資我們都有一些的成長我們在編列的時候也會特別考慮到作業維持費它的預算需求也不能被壓縮所以我們在軍事投資新增建案的同時我們會去檢討汰除一些舊的裝備我們把這些額度能夠釋放出來加上我們新增建案也會併案去檢討"},{"start":3896.181,"end":3911.956,"text":"兩年期的備份料件所以整體的從軍頭案的建案到最維持費的一個預算的編列我們都會整體去做一個考量我們感謝委員指導我們下去後會跟委員來共同來討論看如何來把它做得更好謝謝委員好謝謝 鮑部長您有沒有指導"},{"start":3913.553,"end":3933.372,"text":"剛剛委員有提到,我了解沒有錯,委員也是認為如果說等到發價書來的話,因為相關簽署跟付款的時間相當的急迫所以我們過去在做預算的時候,我們都是在先前有美方有供售意願的時候,那我們拿到初估報價"},{"start":3935.914,"end":3963.797,"text":"同時我們的相關的建案程序完成之後,我們都是先行送進來那大家都有時間來審議這個案子那這個案子到最後等到美方、智慧國會或者是發價書來的時候,我們預算案已經通過了所以我們預算案通過,我們就簽署發價書、付款,這個都沒有問題那今天遭逢的困境就是我們現在有很多案子發價書來了,但是因為案子還"},{"start":3965.175,"end":3981.466,"text":"還沒有過那我們就會有剛剛所講的這些問題不斷的會浮現我們也了解部內同仁努力跟這個承受的壓力那麼這邊也再次提出建議就是說如果我們提出這個這個所謂的LOR的過程中間"},{"start":3982.287,"end":4004.264,"text":"如果已經獲得共識建議部內同仁先到立法院不一定要真到委員會裡面也就是跟部分的委員先做溝通這樣子我們在橫向溝通的時候大家對部裡面的需求跟限制因素更了解更清晰就是說比較容易內部的協商我想以上提出這個建議好謝謝委好謝謝部長謝謝各位"},{"start":4008.769,"end":4013.113,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢主席好 有請顧部長請顧部長也請詹貴司司長 侯司長請詹貴司 黃司長"},{"start":4033.124,"end":4062.364,"text":"部長好 市長早上禮拜我們連續三天在討論這個預算不是預算 是我們這個條例的部分因為我剛好坐在市長對面我也在觀察市長的狀況前幾天媒體大幅報導市長表情的狀況還好啦 昨天晚上看起來是好消息我想我們也透過很多方法跟美方大家透過一些民間的方法告訴他們說我們其實"},{"start":4063.184,"end":4090.326,"text":"不是 再來一檔其實基本上也是贊成軍購的部分我們也事先授權給國防部先去預約基本上我想這個是好消息市長應該是吧 有暫時心情稍微舒緩了一點要掛給我們全力以赴他跟我說他下次在立法院的時候他的姿態管理要關掉"},{"start":4092.266,"end":4097.52,"text":"不過我想大家都一樣都是非常努力地在促成這件事情"},{"start":4098.433,"end":4126.271,"text":"那我想我今天主要基本上因為那天應該是禮拜三的時候我有提到一些我們在做討論那個不管是名稱啦或是裡面具體的內容的部分其實有講到這個飛鴻的部分啦當然有些人是說這個什麼供應鏈啦更進一步不過基本上那天有特別提到大家比較肯設的就是無人機的部分啦那看起來好像我們過去已經買了這個大概市面上大概八家嘛不曉得市長這個數字是不是正確大概現在的狀況"},{"start":4129.052,"end":4145.106,"text":"這軍用的啦現在講的是無人機您是講前面的4000多架對對對 之前的啦 之前的是那我們也很關心現在那個非紅的狀況所以部長或市長可以告訴我們一下有關於過去這個無人機的採購我們現在非紅的程度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":4147.995,"end":4162.539,"text":"我們飛鴻的原則是一貫的那前面的4700多架從微型一直到幕後型無人機的這個部分那也是要求國內廠商必須以國內自己的技術或是國外可以取得的飛鴻技術來產製這些無人機"},{"start":4165.399,"end":4193.827,"text":"是 因為我們過去都在機關裡面我們過去國安法跟國防長的條例還有我們最近有一個新的自動安全審查辦法去年12月基本上要求都會越來越嚴格我們也受到很多的管制我們接下來可能還會有一些所謂的商購的部分不曉得無人街這個部分我們要怎麼確保這個非紅的狀況尤其大家很多聽過什麼稀產地或者一些基本上的零件的部分是不是可以再跟大家說明一下"},{"start":4200.515,"end":4200.857,"text":"再送給你們"},{"start":4202.864,"end":4230.103,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們原本是特別預算通過我們要公告的我們就設定了我們的20萬家然後分成疊代的問題我們就分成兩個年度大概115跟116大概要買了四萬八千多家我們已經召開了兩次的說明會尤其在去年11月國內兩三百家都來我們也跟他們說明了我們這個四萬八千多家一定要在台生產在台組裝"},{"start":4231.044,"end":4257.305,"text":"杜絕紅色供應鏈而且我們的無人機是要整機拆驗並且要經過支撤會相關的支通的檢驗我們要杜絕這個紅色供應鏈那這個部分我們一定會落實在地化的生產你這樣說明是不是可以提供我更多一些資料就你們現在預備要我們可以把一些說明會的資料提供給委員辦公室我想大家都非常關心因為那天在講名稱的時候或一些說明的時候我想在座大家都非常非常關心這個問題"},{"start":4259.059,"end":4283.978,"text":"那另外就是我上次其實有特別提到這件事情就是在那個特別預算裡面有提到一些座位費的部分座位費的部分那我們也這個光輝也來跟我做一些說明不過我想這次我們又增購了一些武器我想這個座位費的部分一定會慢慢就會一直來增加那尤其是這次我們新買的一些武器包含這個是I3 海馬斯"},{"start":4286.34,"end":4305.641,"text":"我們當然知道有新的武器基本上它的一些coast model可能都會有一些不一樣的狀況不曉得國安部對這個部分尤其新式採購跟舊的部分有沒有做過這樣的評估我們作為飛行會不會在哪一個年度會達到高峰會影響到我們的一些我們今天主要的議題就是有關於我們的預算的部分財政的部分"},{"start":4306.786,"end":4324.623,"text":"發布委員,作為費是沒有高峰的這個問題作為費只有依照需求我們去籌編那當然像過去這幾年來敵情威脅陡峰的狀況導致我們的油料零件等大幅增加之後我們會適度的去調整我們作為費的預判額度"},{"start":4326.431,"end":4351.448,"text":"那我們在這次特別預算裡面您剛剛問到會不會成為常態基本上我們不希望它成為常態目前我們在這次特別預算裡面編列的兩大重點是我們要快速的提高我們的基本的戰備量尤其是關鍵彈藥的那個部分以及各式系統有必要的部分我們才會在這個地方放進來"},{"start":4352.909,"end":4372.543,"text":"我有看到那個115年的預算裡面這個後勤通知系統大概就編了1500多億嘛580幾億我的意思說未來我們general budget裡面這些部分會不會可能因為我們有新式的這些武器進來會影響到可能會變偷變得會更高或是跟過去會有很明顯的一個差異報告委員這個要看他的武器裝備的性質我們"},{"start":4374.184,"end":4402.334,"text":"目前所有的武器裝備裡面作為耗費最高的是航才就是各式飛機包含直升機之內它佔的比例是最高的那您可以看得到在這一次我們特別預算裡面編列的項目絕大部分是屬於彈藥類或是屬於地面的武器系統的這個部分它的那個佔比以及它的消耗額度就相對的會低很多尤其是彈藥類的部分好"},{"start":4403.325,"end":4426.783,"text":"那我上次的質詢裡面其實有提到了大概一個概念就是我們發現很多的這個文號的字號其實它那個年跟月其實好像有點順序不是非常一致的狀況那很感謝國安部也跟我們做了一些說明不過我對於這個大家看到這個投影片上面就有關於這個像是擴增這個產線的部分這個好像做了一些調整國安部的意思也說好像做了這個產線的一些調整"},{"start":4428.604,"end":4445.513,"text":"不過大家可以看到這個的年份它的月份是在114年12月跟115年的1月大家都知道特別預算送進來的時間是114年11月的時候送進來的我不知道這個狀況到底是怎麼樣是因為有做一些調整其實預算應該會改變吧"},{"start":4449.407,"end":4469.019,"text":"對,包委員我們這個部分在確定這個上限額度之前我們就依照2500億的這個部分數量的部分在平行的部分我們是有做了一些修調所以我們是控管在它的這個範圍之內是在預算內做了一些調整對"},{"start":4470.225,"end":4487.112,"text":"所以結論就是說它的數量或是它的金額可能都不會受到影響就後面調整我們現在已經框了1.25兆了嘛對不對那可是後端這個部分有了一些調整可是不會影響到1.25兆的總預算不會所以增加也不會增加或減少都不會影響"},{"start":4488.888,"end":4504.501,"text":"包委員這個不是增加或減少都不會有影響我剛剛已經講了這是我們在確保財政紀律法的前提之下不讓我們的這整個軍購案造成國家財力太大的負擔所以"},{"start":4505.381,"end":4524.091,"text":"針對那個個案裡面它的數量如果說我們要維持在一定的預算額度的部分我們就會做一個平行的調整比如說A案它目前的迫切性沒有那麼高我們會稍微降低一下它的數量B案如果目前我們認為它可以獲得而且迫切性比較高所以您的調整的是在這一項裡面"},{"start":4525.611,"end":4551.002,"text":"像室內做調整所以包委您看到那個文號必須要看到整個序列因為我們整歸書的部分做任何一點維修條包括裡面的標題甚至某一些文字的修訂我們就會賦予他一個新的文號所以市長我的意思是說我已經接納你們上次跟我說的一些解釋啦我只是說最後這個部分我還是不是非常了解因為最後做的調整我們如果是1.25兆的總"},{"start":4552.723,"end":4573.28,"text":"框了這麼大一塊嘛有些調整我覺得應該會有一些調整沒關係我們再來再來做一些溝通啦那另外就是我們其實還是比較擔心這個所謂軍用衛星啦我們整個通訊的部分啦我不知道因為那天有特別提到這個Link16的部分啦就是有一些戰艦的部分不曉得現在是不是所有我們的戰艦上那個Link16都是OK的"},{"start":4576.786,"end":4603.521,"text":"方委員另一個16是美製系統對所以只適用於美製的裝備是那所以我們這次看到那個伊朗的部分其實他這個通訊的部分有受到一些這個軟性的攻擊不曉得我們現在整個對通訊系統的部分我們這個整個這個韌性的部分是怎麼樣做調整方委員這個部分可能屬於高度敏感機密方便在這邊說明好沒關係我們私下在"},{"start":4604.809,"end":4621.816,"text":"對 LINK-16相關這個部分應該是屬於機密案件我們私下再跟委員做說明好 沒有問題那天有特別提到這個 LINK-22有特別提到這個事情因為美方應該也有做一些Promise"},{"start":4623.466,"end":4640.877,"text":"這個部分我想也私下再跟委員長說那這一次我其實這一次有特別提到啦上次有一些主責廠商的部分啦這一次的那個公告好像沒有特別看到啦那這部分再請跟國防部做一些溝通那感謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":4667.756,"end":4672.522,"text":"呃謝謝主席主席有請顧部長呃請顧部長指通電軍指揮部參謀長指通電軍參謀長國防大學呃國防大學教育長好國防大學好"},{"start":4682.168,"end":4704.536,"text":"部長早首先呢我想要先針對一個時事題來請問一下國防部上個禮拜其實有兩個宣判其實是社會關注都跟民眾黨有關一個是他們黨主席的社攤事件另外一個就是民眾黨的徐春英他涉嫌這個共諜案的部分"},{"start":4705.356,"end":4726.906,"text":"那麼其實根據這個案子我想這個柯文哲他的這個有關於是不是社攤這個是他個人誠信跟這個司法的部分但是有關於徐春英這個共諜案我想其實讓國人最感到恐怖的是過去我們都說這個匪諜就在你身邊但是呢好像感覺不出來在哪裡"},{"start":4727.866,"end":4732.27,"text":"現在這樣的共諜的滲透根據起訴書的話徐春英跟這個集資公司的負責人透過我們現在正常的所謂貌似正常的這個商業往來跟交流然後讓一個叫孫憲他本人是這個所謂上海的市委的所謂祖國統一會的副主委也就是說負責統戰"},{"start":4752.805,"end":4780.841,"text":"那麼結論就是徐車英跟這個羅穎集資公司的名義把中國統戰的幹部帶到了台灣來那麼為什麼我會提到這一個是因為呢我上網去查了這個集資公司大家都會認為說他應該只是一個正常交流的公司沒想到他還真的這個資金破風而且接了很多政府的標案而這個標案當中也包含了國防部跟國防大學的兩個標案"},{"start":4782.262,"end":4808.004,"text":"那分別是在2019跟2021年金額不高但是我們看到的是他第一個是國防大學的除聯管理學術研究系統另外一個是國防部的資訊安全防護教育訓練其實當然這兩個案子我看大概都已經執行完畢了但重點就來了在這樣的過程當中這個把"},{"start":4808.624,"end":4835.821,"text":"中共的統戰官員以假商務真滲透的方式帶進來台灣的同時他也標了我們國防部跟國防大學相關的尤其是資安資訊安全非常重要的這樣的一個標案那麼我想請問3月23號宣判到今天剛好一個禮拜這一個禮拜的過程中國防部有沒有"},{"start":4836.681,"end":4852.734,"text":"去了解到這個所謂歧視書上面特別標示的國防部的資安的標案是韋游這一間極致公司那麼有沒有做一個回溯因為我們知道的是像這樣的資安通常它有系統的問題有帳號安全密碼的問題還有就是人員接觸的問題"},{"start":4859.079,"end":4884.444,"text":"既然這間公司都可以用商務的名義讓他以商務交流的名義讓這個叫孫縣的進來之後那麼有沒有啟動清查去回溯這個標案做完了可是過程當中到底這間公司接觸了什麼部長跟委員報告有請這個廣大了解那現在主要"},{"start":4885.906,"end":4901.602,"text":"我了解的事項先跟委員做報告,如果有補充再請他們,主要這是108年的一個97萬5千元的一個案子那他這個是在做那個有關庫儲管理,主要是對那個教職員的服裝教職員的服裝的供補,所以他是在由這個應該是總務處"},{"start":4909.079,"end":4933.384,"text":"在總務處裡面來做,那所以他是在民網的執行系統來做一些開發那沒有跟我們的軍網系統有做連結,那另外就是說他這個案子在因為110年的時候陸海空軍的服裝站成立之後這個國防大學所有的人都是依照他的"},{"start":4934.304,"end":4943.792,"text":"他的軍種就回到各軍種去做那個供補所以他這個有關服裝的這個補給回歸到各軍的服務站去做供應以後這一個這一個軟體本來要掌握這個補給狀況的這一個"},{"start":4950.086,"end":4968.646,"text":"部分就停用了就沒有再用所以目前這個系統是停用的狀態是好我要提醒的就是就像部長您所說的他掌握的是一個補給系統我們知道不論是暫時或平時補給系統非常的重要而另外國防部的這個資訊安全防護教育訓練裡頭那麼"},{"start":4971.208,"end":4997.223,"text":"這一個公司他又負責了哪一個部分因為我要提醒的是必須要啟動回溯系統因為包括他碰到哪些系統哪些資料哪些流程有沒有接觸帳號的權限然後教材內容又是什麼系統的後台還有哪些資料其實他們都可能遇到哪些的介面這個部分有關於國防部這個案子目前有回去回溯嗎知通電軍的這塊是"},{"start":5000.245,"end":5017.965,"text":"找到是110年的一個資訊安全防護教育訓練那他主要是針對網路安全的管理有一個基礎的訓練那老師大部分都是那個微軟公司派遣的一個老師所以他是屬於一種我們對於"},{"start":5019.127,"end":5034.761,"text":"他們應該要取得專業證照的一個培訓那這裡面沒有涉及到我們國軍軍內的一些事務好 但是因為會有出席名單會有來上課的名單所以本席還是這一點跟我很不好想我也有特別有問他們他們有說明說因為這個是當時是"},{"start":5039.085,"end":5042.668,"text":"因為新冠疫情影響所以是遠端授課遠端授課的結果訓練的名冊由中電經自存所以因為這樣所以沒有對外提供所以反而因為COVID的關係所以人員名單沒有外流"},{"start":5054.918,"end":5071.055,"text":"好 那表示國防部跟國防大學有做了一些清查啦那麼我想整體來說部長包括其他的單位我們還是做一個提醒跟提示包括這一間公司未來的合作的狀況建議你們要把它放進黑名單裡面"},{"start":5072.256,"end":5075.938,"text":"因為這個他們確實有時機那我也知道在標的過程當中時機很重要時值的績效啦就經驗所以這個部分就是我做一個提醒另外呢部長我知道今天我們其實重要的是針對有關於我們國防軍事計畫及財務負擔能力的動態平衡評估報告"},{"start":5097.828,"end":5125.425,"text":"其實今天報紙也都講了這一份報告當中有特別點出來的就是在碎書的部分如果把我們的國防特別預算為什麼要用特別的原因就是因為擔心對於社會福利啦年金給付啊健保補助還有教育支出等等造成所謂的排擠效應所以本席包括我們民進黨民進黨團都非常同意放在特別預算喔"},{"start":5125.905,"end":5134.651,"text":"但是剛剛主席也特別提到了說這個因為報告交的晚所以還要再排一次那本席是特別建議啦就是說如果是這樣這個題目的話應該要把財政部還有主計處相關的單位找來因為說實話這個國防部只管國防安全有關於這個"},{"start":5146.059,"end":5172.206,"text":"社會福利預算、年金給付、健保補助跟教育支出其實這個不是你們管的啦這個錢該怎麼用其實也不是你們來說說明所以這個部分我認為啦這個說實話今天我想問的時候我比較想要問的是財政部跟主計處但是有一個最新的訊息當然就是今天自由時報的頭版也刊登了台中市長劉秀燕她的專訪"},{"start":5173.366,"end":5192.482,"text":"裡面他特別提到了就是有三點那麼包括現在呢已經跟美方拿到這個所謂發價書的還有就是美方已經跟我們在做溝通的加起來大概八百八千億這個部分他同意然後呢看到說他八千億到一兆啊"},{"start":5192.822,"end":5210.931,"text":"是 八千億到一兆來 我還沒有講完喔那 然後他有關於說是這個政府民間委託我們台灣商購的這個部分他也加進來所以會有一兆所以看到這個報導部長您覺得是不是在野黨可能同意會有轉圜"},{"start":5212.011,"end":5232.376,"text":"你怎麼看我第一個我還是要強調我們這個是因敵情威脅跟整體戰力的一個需求所做的一個系統性跟完整性的規劃是所以我們的七大能力的建構我們認為缺一不可那當然還是要感謝盧市長他沒有侷限於說這是一定要軍購他認為只要是"},{"start":5234.536,"end":5261.758,"text":"符合戰力所需的看起來應該是說他都可以來支持不一定要局限於某一個管道這樣這是那第三個就是他他有提到說這個有如果有非軍用的我是看到新聞但是我們這個的特別預算都是拿來做軍用的所以我在這邊也說明我們這個是有一個系統性跟整理性的規劃那希望我們"},{"start":5263.6,"end":5285.02,"text":"有納入年度預算有困難的情況之下在尋求我們的預算穩定然後資源集中的這樣子的一個需求之下我們當然希望這個不分朝野還是支持我們這個一兆2500億的這樣子的一個整體的一個這個特別預算的一個需求的規劃"},{"start":5286.381,"end":5308.84,"text":"部長雖然說這個看起來這個頭版像是一個好消息啦但是我其實還是強烈的質疑尤其是提到這個有關於還是有部分要回歸到所謂年度預算一旦要回歸年度預算那就會有剛剛您報告所說的這個排擠的部分所以我強烈懷疑甚至於擔心這會不會是一個國民黨的暢雙簧因為從我們這個軍購特別條例出來到現在國民黨的黨內"},{"start":5315.825,"end":5341.373,"text":"就一直有不同的聲音但是回到後來都屈服在黨主席底下啦所以我是強烈的懷疑啦這會不會是一個黑白臉的唱雙簧啦因為畢竟還是有一塊部分他認為還是要回到年度預算喔那回到年度這個所謂公務預算的時候他一樣會存在有排擠的部分所以部長你是不是覺得這個預算就可以這麼順利的可以通過"},{"start":5342.613,"end":5349.254,"text":"我們持續努力跟草野的各政黨來溝通好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請王地瑜委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":5376.915,"end":5403.303,"text":"是 王老爺部長跟國安部各位同仁大家辛苦我請教一個問題就是說昨天晚上的媒體好消息啦82套的海馬士發價書在3月30號到期他同意展延到他跟承包商簽約的時候嘛我看到訊息是這樣子這個展延期到底多長"},{"start":5405.997,"end":5415.971,"text":"我們只能推估對大概多長因為如果展延的過程當中我們在委員會在立法院條例冷凍期還有一個月"},{"start":5417.031,"end":5443.38,"text":"冷凍期完了通過之後縱使通過之後邊預算還要回到委員會審查這個延長到底有沒有效果目前我們預估是目前美方表達大概是在五月底到六月初附近會完成意願因為以往正常的做法是我們發價書到時間到之前45天30天內簽約嘛付頭期款嘛美國因為這是軍售美國就會去跟他的承包商簽約嘛"},{"start":5444.58,"end":5464.812,"text":"那簽完約就委制開始生產後面是按批次喔所以上次我們講年底如果這一批錯過的話移到年底那個是簽約移到年底可是我們的批次量移到後面去就非優先那個交貨期程會大幅的往後拖啦這對戰力的構成是不利的所以我現在要跟你確定這個事情就是"},{"start":5465.532,"end":5493.745,"text":"美方在最後一刻同意展現到他跟他的承包商簽約這個是破例還是常態都可以這麼做這是破例我們引用的是他的那個6.2.1的emergency case implementation在我做了27年的軍售案的過程當中這是我們第一次引用這個條款罕見用到這個方式所以這其實是很有風險的他也可以不同意你我已經把你作為盟友把你放在最優先了啊"},{"start":5494.79,"end":5522.005,"text":"你們自己編輯出來但是好所以我現在聽到期程是五月份預估是五月份所以我們的預算的籌措最慢最慢要到五月份之前要完成這一件事那我就要請教我不知道這方不方便講投期款的預算需要多少金額剛剛我有回答就我們現在既有的這個四項四個案子已經拿到吧大概是"},{"start":5527.46,"end":5548.186,"text":"7900餘萬美金大概折合新台幣25億左右OK這就是所謂的開辦費啦就是簽約的開辦費他要跟他們的偽製廠商落馬啦各廠商要去做這個簽約款嘛所以大概需要籌款至少要25億所以你剛才部長就回答我後面要問的問題因為這個時候發價書到期的不是只有海馬仕啊"},{"start":5549.315,"end":5558.27,"text":"M109A7也到期啊還有其他不管是托兒B啦 標槍都到期嘛有的是3月16號就到期了那個有沒有簽約"},{"start":5559.756,"end":5571.581,"text":"我們現在因為經過授權了,所以我們現在已經提出發下書簽署的那現在之後也同樣會面臨投棄款的問題授權簽約不給半毛錢能不能簽?就簽署的同時當然要開始討論這個能不能往後延的問題"},{"start":5583.747,"end":5598.773,"text":"我印象A7是3月16日到期的沒有 我們授權發價書之後我們有再跟他講簽署發價書的時間授權之前我們跟他有講到要發價書簽署自己要延後我問的問題的癥結就是發價書到期我們要簽約嘛簽約要付deposit money 等於是簽約款"},{"start":5608.197,"end":5627.067,"text":"那付簽約款海馬斯會有遇到的問題其他的品項應該也會遇到那些問題怎麼解決?那個簽署的這個部分因為已經進入程序所以美方他已經把簽署的這一段的作業已經完成那接下來就支付首期款的這個部分"},{"start":5628.067,"end":5651.57,"text":"原則上我們在這個週末協調當中也針對另外三個案子去做討論美方的回應是他們會再確定這三個案的契約時間然後再來跟我們討論後面我們首期款支付延後的時間點會落在什麼時候所以目前已知的四項"},{"start":5652.831,"end":5671.834,"text":"放在特別預算的至少首期款要籌措25億台幣那我印象去年底川普通過的那幾項軍售案有的不是放在特別預算的有的政黨把它寫錯了有的放在年度預算可是我們年度預算到今天都還沒有審那個有沒有影響那個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":5673.876,"end":5689.254,"text":"H1W跟魚叉飛彈的那個定件保修的那個部分它是從114年開始的案所以這兩個案子它是所以科目在了對 他們前面其實已經就年度預算因為H1W影響到我們我們飛訊部歸人的這些飛官"},{"start":5693.138,"end":5707.699,"text":"你大量汰除將來要再這是人才的浪費嘛所以讓他研議讓人才可以留下一個飛行員培養是不容易的所以那一塊沒有問題那我請教部長當然現在在野黨的態度特別國民黨態度是有發酵輸我就給啊"},{"start":5709.11,"end":5725.461,"text":"有沒有可預期的我覺得我們在國會裡面先面對困難那也讓在野黨的朋友了解如果有沒有可預期的新的軍售案發價書在近期會發生以免我們在那邊討論半天協調半天冷凍期一個月"},{"start":5726.061,"end":5749.429,"text":"一過那邊又多新的發價書了我們剛過的東西又不夠用了你懂我意思嗎因為現在看起來在野黨要的那個條文第八條是沒有在這個預算給你一個上限匡列他要你重啟特別條例另外再送個法案可是那樣子坦白講我們認為那根本就不是特別預算也不是好的做法那在近期內有沒有可能有新的發價書就是新的軍售案"},{"start":5750.33,"end":5761.348,"text":"12月19那個時候是會國會的有五個案項是預計要擺入特別預算的嗎?那其中一個發現說還沒有到就是Artis 700M跟Artis 600ISR這兩個?"},{"start":5764.498,"end":5774.651,"text":"這是一個案,那這個的發價書應該也是近期可能會拿到所以可預計的RTS是700跟那一個夾艙它是700公斤,那600是ISR,這兩個是一個案所以這個案子"},{"start":5783.061,"end":5803.339,"text":"已經送交國會了 巴加蘇還沒上單智慧國會已經完成了所以是預期他應該是很快其實智慧國會一般就應該要開始作業了否則真的會來不及那還有沒有其他可預期的案包含媒體揭露的我想這個可能沒辦法在這裡做公開的說明那我接下來請教"},{"start":5804.577,"end":5823.996,"text":"我們今天樂見看到國民黨的台中市長盧秀燕盧市長她表態支持一兆到八千億的特別條例而且認為不應該等發架書這個講的就內行話了等發架書那個作業來不及那個流程應該要按照這幾十年來建立下來的制度來處理"},{"start":5825.646,"end":5848.906,"text":"那當然這到底是宣誓有沒有行動我們就看看國民黨的要角盧秀燕盧市長他能影響到的國民黨委員中部的國民黨委員願不願意支持國家的安全支持國家的國防從宣誓到行動那我要請教部長齁你有沒有打個電話給他沒有感謝一下嗎 沒有沒有"},{"start":5851.415,"end":5880.487,"text":"我想我們還是來大院裡面做報告這裡是你們的本務啦這裡國會需要聯繫要怎麼樣我建議行政部門未必由國防部我建議行政部門其實大家對國家安全的想像是一致的這是最好的我們政黨有很多不同政黨可以有很多競爭但是攸關國家安全攸關國軍要使用的武器裝備我覺得這沒有什麼黨派之分有一致的想法"},{"start":5881.701,"end":5889.696,"text":"我們就可以以正面的肯定當然一兆還是離我們1.25兆那個是詳實的計畫有點落差這可以溝通但我建議就是"},{"start":5890.39,"end":5919.662,"text":"透過這些意見領袖的表態化為行動也許我們在國會裡面討論這個案子可以慢慢收容減少一些政黨上的不管是意氣用事或惡鬥所以有關這一個盧秀燕盧市長她對軍購表態我個人建議國防部或者行政院適度地我覺得這是一個正向的發展雖然金額還是有落差但是總是往前又走了一點點部長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":5922.147,"end":5940.262,"text":"我想因為我們就這個特別預算要面對的就是大院我想我們會跟所有朝野各界來做溝通不過我們想我們主要會來進行溝通就大眾還有像各位委員那我想跟"},{"start":5941.383,"end":5955.059,"text":"盧市長之間的部分我如果要或者不要這個部分我想我印象你有跟他同事過我們第九屆的時候他是立委嘛你也是立委嘛是我在金管會他在財政委員會所以應該是有認識啦當然啦"},{"start":5959.904,"end":5978.154,"text":"為了國家大義我覺得我們就盡最大的努力不過特別預算特別條例是經過不管是我們國防部內部詳實的會議跟盟友之間的討論它是一個非常紮實科學準備的過程才有這1.25兆裡面不管是對外採購"},{"start":5979.295,"end":5997.913,"text":"台美建立在台灣的供應鏈或者是不對稱戰力或者整合我們的防空體系形成T-DOM這是一個完整的使用的用途所以除了金額以外8年期 它是8年1.25兆8年期的這個特別預算在使用用途上不能去"},{"start":5998.914,"end":6018.448,"text":"把台灣自己內部要建立供應鏈啊或者相關的不對稱戰力的誘因等等把它拿掉這是有點可惜所以我建議國防部在溝通的時候除了金額以外其實用途也很重要我昨天還是前天看到古立言他直接講不是只有對美軍購喔在台灣建立這一個供應鏈等不對稱戰力"},{"start":6020.029,"end":6043.501,"text":"非常重要所以這盟友也這樣提了所以部長我建議多方溝通立法院有時候直走有牆壁有時候繞著走會有樓梯所以我覺得這個為了國家大義要一起來努力真件兵工產線還有無人機的產制落地化然後形成國防任性這確實是非常"},{"start":6044.161,"end":6055.029,"text":"非常重要 那很重要那個金額也許佔比沒那麼大但是其實對台灣的防衛眾生軍備軍需的眾生很重要我最後建議一件事情有關扣除額的事情"},{"start":6056.667,"end":6085.967,"text":"我現在還有其他但來不及了我建議好請夜館參謀存餐然後看怎麼回覆我就是說我們現在後備軍人我們2.3就是230萬的後備軍人那參加教召我們現在14天的教召越來越紮實這是好事那演訓漢光演習有編了一個是一個後備軍人的後備旅這都是好的方向那我建議多一個配套誘因像美國國民兵後備部隊"},{"start":6087.247,"end":6110.778,"text":"參加離開家鄉160公里以上的他除了可以扣差旅費以外呢他可以有一些所得稅的扣除額也就是說當會當後備軍人的一定是年輕力壯年齡在就業範圍內所以當他來投入14天的教召或者漢光演習的時候呢對於他一些所得可以"},{"start":6111.678,"end":6126.425,"text":"不記錄科稅所得或者呢列一些扣除額這其實不僅是一個鼓勵這其實是一個尊崇就是你作為一個軍人哪怕你是後備軍人國家願意向你致敬雖然扣除額也許不會很多"},{"start":6127.205,"end":6150.342,"text":"不會相當高但是這一個會讓我做一個後備軍人我現在14天叫招我這些你報的錢不用報稅然後另外呢我在公司裡面一些所得呢還可以有抵扣額甚至於雇主也可以有抵扣額這個除了增加誘因以外是給軍人一個尊重這個我給部長跟我們夜餐這些參謀大家做參考那我們一起來努力這個方向"},{"start":6151.042,"end":6177.927,"text":"是 這可能需要跟財政部做財政部管錢管很緊啦但是我覺得這是一個可以推動的方向而且美軍有 美國有這樣的情形好不好好 那以上給國安部做參考 謝謝我們現在請沈博洋委員做質詢好 謝謝"},{"start":6189.131,"end":6192.454,"text":"今天發生比較多大事我剛剛看到新聞稿說習近平跟鄭麗文有可能要見面"},{"start":6214.073,"end":6240.493,"text":"我覺得這是很令人悲傷的事情就是說我們在上個禮拜我們不斷地在協調這些軍購相關的事項看起來都無法達成共識這個無法達成共識造成我們國防整個進度的拖延這其實就是中國想要的一旦造成了拖延結果現在發布這樣的一個消息說兩邊要見面我覺得這個是一個國之不幸"},{"start":6241.474,"end":6267.956,"text":"但另外一方面我們也看到就是剛剛定遠也有提到就是這一個盧秀燕市長還有特別提到說她贊成這樣的一個國防預算這個8000到1兆這個她特別接受轉訪那這個我覺得也請國防部可能要稍微了解一下就是不知道為什麼這一個盧秀燕市長有這樣那麼大的一個轉變因為畢竟從去年這個條例就已經被提出了"},{"start":6268.476,"end":6293.841,"text":"那這個條例從去年提出到現在過了很長一段時間他們一開始的講法是一毛都不要給然後後來講說可能可以三四千然後現在後來又一陣子說可以到八千那今天說可以到一兆我覺得他到底做哪一個班機那個班機上面放什麼電影是不是可以稍微了解一下不然的話就為什麼坐一趟飛機人可以做那麼大的一個改變我覺得這是一個很奇異的事情"},{"start":6294.441,"end":6318.828,"text":"當然我們期待這樣的事情發生我們也期待他跟國民黨的黨團跟傅坤祺或者說跟他們的主席來好好討論這件事情不然這個延宕其實對我們來講會是一個很大的問題接下來因為今天的題目雖然是在講整個預算的平衡但我相信在上個禮拜協商禮拜三禮拜四的過程當中已經討論很多所以我幾個小的問題我想先問一下"},{"start":6319.568,"end":6333.901,"text":"第一個就是就去年年底的時候去年年底的時候呢這個有兩千艘中國的漁船集結成這個倒L型的一個隊伍那這個這邊有一個很簡單的一個影片他有去秀出來說他的異常的狀況那可能可以幫我按一下"},{"start":6340.887,"end":6357.719,"text":"這些是漁船,漁船在移動的方式應該是屬於比較凌亂我們可以看到漁船慢慢形成這個道L形形成的過程對任何有在關心海事的事情都會認為這是一個異常的現象"},{"start":6361.562,"end":6390.852,"text":"我們看到就是說它的縱深大概是200英里的一個長方形而且長達大概30個小時所以這是一個軍事有這絕對是帶有一個軍事色彩的一個漁船鹹調的一個操演那我相信海巡有一定程度的對應那我想問一下國防部現在對這樣的一個事情這樣已經過了一段時間了嘛那目前的對應是什麼我們的分析是什麼我想這個活動的海域主要是位於"},{"start":6391.923,"end":6410.079,"text":"我們可以看到是中日間敏感的海域這個行為當然看起來是有高度的組織化因為我們都知道中共有運用海上民兵就是用漁船來作為海上民兵所以他的這個企圖"},{"start":6412.435,"end":6435.095,"text":"是不是在演練對特定海域的控制能力這是我值得我們關注那我們當然更值得關注的是應該是在台海周邊的部分那有沒有會運用相關的相同的這個模式在我們的台海周邊進行一個大規模的集結這個部分是我們要注意的所以我們會運用我們的相關的"},{"start":6436.028,"end":6461.118,"text":"所有的這個勤奸症的這個系統來全程掌握這個動態那來瞭解他是一個灰色地帶的洗澡還是他有準備要做再做進一步的後續這個部分的徵喉是我們要密切關注的對 因為他這個當然會不會出現在這個西南方我們還不知道"},{"start":6461.578,"end":6477.824,"text":"因為就最近嘛就三月初的時候呢那其實在這邊往更偏東的位置也有發生過一樣的事情那我覺得這是一個值得密切關注啦那國防部不一定要把這個到底我們是怎麼分析啦我們認為應該怎麼做全盤的透露但總之這是一個值得注意的現象"},{"start":6478.704,"end":6504.185,"text":"那另外我想問一下全棟鼠就是說這個因為我看到波蘭現在有一個全民自願國防訓練計畫那這個計畫裡面他就講到說有這個急救啦應對的機制啦什麼之類的那因為畢竟波蘭現在跟我們面臨到的威脅非常類似那他就做了兩個他自己取的名字啦一個叫任性之路一個叫後備之路"},{"start":6504.685,"end":6516.148,"text":"那我相信後備這個部分大概台灣有做跟他雷同的事情太多了而且我們的兵役的制度跟他不太相同所以但他有一個叫韌性之路這個韌性之路他裡面就特別提到說比如說要增強這個社會的韌性那這個有幾門課可以選擇然後呢這個團體的訓練然後呢要怎麼去搭配新的專案的要求"},{"start":6528.792,"end":6547.315,"text":"我稍微整理了一下就是呢它有安全的課程有急救的課程有生存的課程有資安的課程那因為在台灣這一個部分有一些是衛福部在做有一些是內政部在做但畢竟我們這邊有一個權動署算是一個有點像是指揮協調整個的單位那我相信"},{"start":6547.856,"end":6571.25,"text":"可能因為波蘭這個計畫很新我看它因為波蘭最近的國防預算也是一直增加它已經要到4%了然後它2026年4月然後最近才開始這一系列的課程所以它到底效益如何這個也是我們可以去評估那目前來講我們因為民間有很多這個我以前在民間我最熟民間有很多這種課程但是我的期待一直都是這不應該是民間"},{"start":6573.01,"end":6588.994,"text":"這應該就是政府來做那今天政府如果要來做這件事情跟內政部的協調還有國防部這邊的大戰略的策略到底是什麼現在國際看起來都在往這個方向走所以是不是權動署可以先做一個簡單的說明那我待會再問一小部分跟後備有關的委員好"},{"start":6592.112,"end":6614.861,"text":"首先剛剛就聽了委員的說明大概跟我們了解的是一致的他這個訓練的計畫不管是任性之路或者是後備之路他最主要的目的就是有兩個第一個就是提升全民的一個國防防衛意識第二個就是要來強化這個後備軍人的一個作戰能力"},{"start":6615.501,"end":6641.811,"text":"那他最終的目的呢就是要來備戰因為他看到烏克蘭被俄羅斯入侵的這個那我們看了他的這些課程就是安全 生存 急救這些治安的這些課程其實跟我們的全社會防衛任性現在正在推的各種這些計畫或者是訓練民間的訓練是不謀而合的比如說這個"},{"start":6644.864,"end":6668.993,"text":"這個內政部他在108年就開始有這個這個防災式的訓練那從去年開始他又擴大擴大除了這些我們各層級的這些消防人員他要做之外還有替代役跟這19個民間的這些團體比如說慈濟紅十字他都一起來搭配來做那去年他本來是要"},{"start":6670.353,"end":6692.63,"text":"10萬人他已經超過了11萬人那我們國防部也搭配內政部在所有的義務役的義難不管四個月或一個月的一年的在這個入伍的就有這個戰傷急救那到了下部隊之後兩週之內要完成這個防災防災式的這個訓練那這個訓練一樣都是在強化我們的社會韌性強化我們的社會韌性"},{"start":6698.935,"end":6717.104,"text":"至於後備的這一部分其實委員剛才也提到我們在今年開始都14天那裡都在戰術位置報到首席作戰計畫希望這樣子的一個訓練模式將來我們的後備動員之後它就是一個集戰你可以馬上投入作戰我先這樣補充"},{"start":6717.884,"end":6736.51,"text":"好 那這個就是我稍微很快速的問一下就是說後備這個部分就他們在講後備的時候他們有這個無人機的預備版那因為當然我們現在當然我們一直在討論無人機我們在我們年度的預算也有無人機然後我們在這一個特別預算那特別預算那一個不是我們一般可以操縱的無人機"},{"start":6737.37,"end":6757.985,"text":"那關於這一個無人機的軍事預備班他們最主要是重量不超過5公斤的非常小型的然後我看他在16所學校也有先做一些試辦從今年4月開始然後另外一個就是網路團這個我在之前質詢有提過因為在烏克蘭他們也有這樣做就是他除了原本比如說像我們的直通電本來就有專長的人嘛"},{"start":6758.505,"end":6779.366,"text":"他去跟民間原本的去開啟這個協作的關係這個協作的關係指的是說如果今天有任何災害發生的時候今天國軍跟這些所謂民間的這一個懂網路的能夠做這個網路的預備的能夠做攻擊防守的這一些人有沒有一個協調跟運作的機制"},{"start":6781.508,"end":6808.383,"text":"那這個在烏克蘭它是形成一個非常大的它是由國防部來主導那這個看起來並不是在我們現在直接的計畫所以那如果他們現在開始這樣做我知道我們有做一些簡單的這個無人機的訓練那我們的人才我們的能不能夠有適當就是那個充足的這個飛手跟我們有沒有夠多的比如說網路站的人才可以從民間做吸納這方面現在的規劃大概如何簡單的跟國人說明一下"},{"start":6808.663,"end":6827.131,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在有關無人機的這些非操守他在就是他以前在民間有這個專長那他如果退伍之後我們先把他列入邊管那後續在他就是進入教育召集的時候我們可能把這些人納入這個訓練的一個範圍跟範疇那加強他的在職的訓練這邊跟委員做簡單的那網路這一個部分呢"},{"start":6836.836,"end":6859.246,"text":"這個不都是 跟委員報告 這個都在我們的子民甄選的那一塊跟委員報告 因為我當然要說明一下就是說這些有特殊專長 而且是我們一定要 我們會把它放入子民所以它即使是 就是說它一個兵退伍那如果它是具有這樣我們認為急需的專長 我們把它納入子民"},{"start":6859.986,"end":6885.441,"text":"那現在後備的部分我們會把鞭石動員做為後續第一個項目所以將這個常備部隊的鞭石部分立即集戰化這個也是第二個重點大致上我們會按照一個順序然後接下來當然是首備旅後面再來是後備旅所以您剛剛講的這些專長包括他有一個重要的比如說無人機的專長或者是網路站特別是網路站我們會把這些人做一個"},{"start":6886.641,"end":6912.404,"text":"完全的管制然後把它納入指名召集的部分那最後一點就是說呢當然就是除了我們能夠找到人才我們開始有這樣的一個編組之外我們也要給一定的誘因所以這剛剛定宇文有提到的這個或許我們來跟財政部真的是可以來討論一下我們去增強那個誘因我覺得對他們來講的話他們更願意來加入是 這個要跟財政部溝通對 這跟財政部溝通好 謝謝部長因為時間差不多謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":6916.616,"end":6930.013,"text":"謝謝沈伯陽委員的發言下面我們請馬文君委員質詢馬委員好謝謝主席 麻煩請部長好 請部長"},{"start":6938.945,"end":6958.216,"text":"部長早部長我們今天就是大家關切的重點其實不只是支持國防因為其實我覺得在近幾年我們看得出來因為民進黨委員一直說在野黨好像不夠去支持我們國家的國防"},{"start":6958.776,"end":6965.861,"text":"或者罔顧國家的安全可是我們回顧這幾年來其實在很多在預算上面或者大家在監督上面其實如果更慎重我想對我們的國防安全還有我們的國家的需求還有軍人的福利其實可能在野黨比執政黨更到位這個部分必須在這裡說明一下因為今天關切的重點"},{"start":6989.676,"end":6998.918,"text":"目前國防預算的編列是不是仍然建立在作戰需求或者系統分析與實戰驗證之上還是已經變成由預算規模反向去主導建案的配置因為我們在幾次的這些建案裡面我們看到有些狀況已經不是像過去因為我們的作需細分我們的實戰驗證這一次在報告裡面"},{"start":7017.341,"end":7031.795,"text":"也特別有提到說是因為我們相關的規劃都是這樣逐步形成的而且兼顧我們財政負擔的能力同時報告也明確的提出來未來8年新興急迫需求達到1兆2500億宣稱可以帶動4000億元的產值而且創造大概9萬個"},{"start":7038.021,"end":7048.513,"text":"就業機會這些內容都寫在國防部自己的專案報告裡面我們看到過去其實我們也常常看到就是我們的國際國照我們的國建國照可以創造好幾萬個就業機會然後我們可以讓我們的"},{"start":7054.499,"end":7068.904,"text":"國內的產值可以提高可是我們卻都沒有看到那我們在野黨執政黨很多委員一直口口聲聲說只有支持預算才是真正的支持國防這是錯的"},{"start":7069.684,"end":7074.629,"text":"因為有很多發生問題的狀況他們卻過了以後從來都沒有再提過一次我們剛剛講的國機國造我們剛剛講的國艦國造我們剛剛講的很多我們戰機的採購還有包括我們彈藥的來源還包括我們飛彈我們所有"},{"start":7088.943,"end":7113.26,"text":"像我們常常提的包括國防部自己提現在目前至少承認的這三項延宕的這個部分其實它對我們國內的戰力都造成非常大的影響當時都說這個可能會產生如果沒有及時去獲得的話它大概都會對我們造成安全上非常大的一個傷害可是現在呢沒有人在乎"},{"start":7114.301,"end":7129.991,"text":"只在乎未來要用的錢可是在這個部分所以我們這裡要特別提出來說明我們監督我們只是讓國防部更有條件去做談判過去的國防部其實都是這樣做的而且成效不錯"},{"start":7130.891,"end":7157.302,"text":"反而近幾年我們什麼都不敢講然後只是一味的付錢這個才是我們最擔心的我們認為在這個部分裡面好像有一些部分其實是錯誤的當然總預算還沒有審查通過我們說在預備金上面沒有辦法動之可是我想請教的是我們有很多在延宕的一些軍購案裡面其實它有很多的"},{"start":7158.642,"end":7170.751,"text":"預算你們說都沒有付出去嗎不管是在我們自己手上可控的資金或者已經轉到美國聯邦儲蓄銀行裡面的像這些都不可以用嗎"},{"start":7172.008,"end":7200.222,"text":"這就涉及審計部門的那個意見了這一點如果委員應該要問到是我們在美的資金帳戶的部分那在美的資金帳戶的部分我們確實也有思考到但是這個部分我想一定要審計單位要能夠同意那當然如果有立法院因為他就是一筆歸一筆的我想這個主計可以再做一個衝突因為過去我們被"},{"start":7203.225,"end":7209.709,"text":"包委員我主席局局長我先跟委員報告有關局長你們剛剛部長其實已經有點到了就是這個部分如果審計單位有意見你們又覺得那麼重要因為你們在要這筆預算的時候非常的強力的訴求這是很重要的所以我們有那麼多的錢放在那裡不能用不能動用那框死在那裡這個也是我們現在要談的"},{"start":7228.303,"end":7247.933,"text":"今天如果我們過去有這麼多的錢放在那裡然後你連動都不能動那些已經框死在那裡的再加上我們現在又要框死一大筆預算然後如果他真的沒有到位他沒有辦法及時提供的時候我們有更多的錢是框死在那裡這是第一點如果你們連那個都不能用那你來告訴大家說這個錢"},{"start":7251.875,"end":7257.419,"text":"還可以活用然後我們不會有其他的疑慮如果未來八年你這麼大筆真的通過你的一兆兩千五百億到時候真的沒有到位而且又拖了很多很長時間不要在這裡跟我們說那個一定可以如期如質因為我看到的所有的很多都沒有如期如質如實所以如果像這個你們都沒有辦法保證那你自己的錢又不能動用雖然還沒有全部付給美國可是你就卡死在那裡這是第一點"},{"start":7281.277,"end":7298.284,"text":"第二點 3800億裡面 或者民眾黨的4000億不管是國民黨的版本 或者民眾黨的版本其實這一次美國第一階段通過的111億美元他其中 這是八項 111億美元是八項同意的軍售案 對不對這是八項嘛 111億啊"},{"start":7306.381,"end":7320.711,"text":"對啦111億你說那個框列在國民黨黨版的那個8項不是不是我說美國這一次同意的111億美元就是同意8項嘛對但有5項我們是要列入特別預算嘛部長"},{"start":7321.531,"end":7345.8,"text":"我們現在來看111億美元五項放在特別預算其中有三項放在我們的公務預算裡面在特別預算裡面的這五項其實它只有九十幾億如果換算下來它至少還有600億的可用的金額其實是可以去使用的假設如果像你們剛剛在質疑的說萬一它第二階段突然再"},{"start":7347.361,"end":7372.986,"text":"很快的時間然後公告了以後我們的頭期款又付不出來錯如果這個部分很快你們可以在時間內大家如果協商同意我們沒有反對它只是它的程序的問題我們現在要的是更務實的去掌握我們的預算支出剛剛你們有提到就是我們質疑的部分嘛如果你沒有辦法有效的運用那你框死在那裡對我們是不利的"},{"start":7374.346,"end":7397.192,"text":"第二個如果通過不管是國民黨或民眾黨的版本第一階段沒有人說不支持後續的啊可是你一步一步的來因為大家還沒有共識的情況之下最快的就是你通過以後其實它至少有六百億以上的可用的餘額資金您講的六百億是指在美國的那個不是不是不是所以您剛剛講的六百億是指"},{"start":7397.972,"end":7404.274,"text":"我們現在有三千八百億或四千億對不對那你說你現在列的那個三千八百億貴長的檔板的裡面這個三千八百億就是說如果現在其實我們放在那個特別預算裡面其實只有五項那五項其實只有九十幾億美金算你九十幾億的美金大概三千多億出頭啦所以如果通過任何一個版本其實它都是有"},{"start":7427.662,"end":7440.426,"text":"多餘的這樣的資金其實是可以做這樣的使用因為只要國會肯授權我覺得那是沒有問題所以就這個部分我想如果國會授權是授權我們動用哪一筆錢因為你預算案還沒過啊"},{"start":7443.379,"end":7469.784,"text":"你可以把預算通過我現在講的就是如果你預算通過部長你沒聽清楚我現在講的是我現在講的是那個金額裡面包含的部分其實已經放大很多不會是剛剛夠的因為你們之前在那裡算匯率算什麼其他的就這個部分我想其實也要理清楚所以不是他沒有辦法如果他來不及不要怪在野黨其實堅持過不了"},{"start":7471.724,"end":7476.949,"text":"的版本其實才是真正去擋美國的軍購對於對美的軍購或者對美採購的武器項目或者我們應該合理獲得的這些武器裝備我們都沒有意見可是我們希望是在合理透明的監督之下對於國家才是真正有利的我們看到很多過去的案例啊"},{"start":7495.268,"end":7500.631,"text":"因為我們檢視近年的建案跟採購實務看到一個值得高度警惕的現象就是說我們通過很大筆的預算可是它不完全是有作戰需求去推導出來的而是感覺像先確定預算規模然後再回頭去把它填一些項目內容這個是我們比較擔心的那我們這一次在推出的八年期的一兆兩千五百億的內容裡面我們看到的"},{"start":7523.626,"end":7528.128,"text":"大概就是彈藥或者其他可能還要雙邊合作或者還有什麼其他的內容有些不清不楚太模糊所以我們沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個審視可是這個內容大部分都是屬於長期而且可預期而且是跨年度的支出我們卻用特別預算的方式處理特別預算本來應該用在緊急而且不可預測的重大事項裡面"},{"start":7550.757,"end":7577.815,"text":"如果把長期規劃性的支出放在特別預算雖然可以減輕年度的預算壓力可是也削弱我們審查跟監督的強度為什麼審查跟監督那麼重要因為它對於我們的國防預算有限的國防預算它其實是很重要的因為我們在具體的案例上面就可以看到那個問題的所在我們之前在國防認清特別條例裡面就很簡單的採購上面"},{"start":7581.017,"end":7601.514,"text":"社會上已經看到很多讓人民一聽就有感的例子比如說我們一瓶水可以買到一百二十塊錢我們一張椅子可以買到五萬元人民之所以會憤怒不是因為一瓶水或一張椅子這些錢八億多或者像這樣兩千多萬就會拖垮我們的財政國家的財政而是因為這一類案例很清楚的傳達一件事情"},{"start":7608.28,"end":7631.886,"text":"如果你沒有好好的監督連最基礎最日常最容易比價的這樣子的一個採購內容都會失真的時候我們人民要怎麼相信上千億元的軍事投資不會出現更大的失真這是我們要討論的一個部分這個也是大家為什麼而且剛剛還有一點"},{"start":7633.906,"end":7651.73,"text":"我們國防部在報告裡面還有對外也很清楚的說我們在未來的三年是付款的高峰期不管我們的刺針飛彈或者我們的魚砂飛彈或者我們其他的M1A2或者我們其他的死神無人機或者我們其他的一些相關的採購支出未來三年是高峰期"},{"start":7657.091,"end":7672.104,"text":"所以可見三年以後我們高峰期過了其實我們的公務預算上面其實是有空間跟餘裕的所以我們是不是應該要一步到位全部都把它用在特別預算上面然後就"},{"start":7673.769,"end":7682.214,"text":"避免比較審慎的一個監督還有失去他的透明度我覺得這就是我們現在要提出來討論的因為時間的關係啊我們剛剛講的其實大家應該你今天既然要說明財政的狀況你就應該把它更清楚的說明第一你把特別預算常態化了第二我們的公務預算不是未來全部"},{"start":7698.323,"end":7713.156,"text":"都只有84億的上限而是你在付款高峰期過後其實它會有其他的又重新開始那你相對的如果比較重要的其實你甚至都可以放在公共預算上面這也是我們的態度我們也非常支持我們的國家安全跟我們的國防"},{"start":7718.34,"end":7722.084,"text":"那另外在這裡借一點點時間我想要請教國防部 請我請教部長這個ARTIS 600這個部分我們對美因為這一次對美的那個軍售項目裡面其中也有這個案子那ARTIS是我們提出需求或者是美國軍方的建議當時我們會買 因為我們第一批已經來了嘛"},{"start":7743.243,"end":7761.181,"text":"在專案裡面原來我們編一百一十五億後來美方同意的價格其實只有五十五億其中高達六十億的價差我想要請教的是ALTIS六百這是我們提出的需求或者是美方"},{"start":7762.608,"end":7786.555,"text":"提供的建議包委員這是我們提的需求這在前年的時候我們年底在討論列銷案的時候這也是我們提出的需求所以我們是直接指商所以我們要買這一家那時候我們有做了一個專報就是我們真正這個反甲無人機飛彈的需求是兩千多具那所以上一次我們已經採購了大概兩百九十幾套的那個Otis 600M型"},{"start":7787.395,"end":7800.177,"text":"那因為我們依據最近跟美方討論的結果他們RTS600M型它已經在做性能的升級所以在這一波裡面我們把前面那個需求的部分把它補足"},{"start":7800.936,"end":7803.078,"text":"我們比較特別感興趣的就是說為什麼不是感興趣啦我們比較懷疑關心的是為什麼我們會選擇這一款因為我們看到媒體報導上面Artist 600M在實彈測試當中五架衰掉三架雖然陸軍有回應說這個報導不屬實"},{"start":7823.797,"end":7830.159,"text":"可是我們卻沒有辦法有具體的實證說它是好的事實上它就是掉了三架那你要做其他等我把它講完因為時間比較有限那我們在本席你說獲得的武器規劃要做年度的重大演訓或實戰化的驗證可見它還沒有做好驗證那本席查證美安和局的網頁也發現除了台灣以外世界各國都沒有大量採購Artis無人機"},{"start":7853.644,"end":7859.166,"text":"這個部分不管是美軍現役的他們包括海空軍其實他們測試的結果都不好所以其實他們也沒有採購那另外還有媒體也報導美方曾經送一批到烏克蘭實戰驗證可是發現他會墜毀而且沒有辦法集中目標而且會遭遇俄羅斯電戰攻擊的時候他表現狀況也不好所以2024年他就已經停止使用沒有再部署過那就"},{"start":7883.275,"end":7904.948,"text":"還包括美國的海空軍的驗證他會高空俯衝或螺旋式的墜落這個指揮控制軟體的表現也不如預期美國的海軍報告更嚴厲的指責系統不斷出現作戰安全違規承包商更有誤導行為顯示這款無人機在控制軟體上面還在發展測試修改的這個階段我們國軍為什麼持續購置沒有驗證"},{"start":7911.932,"end":7929.739,"text":"的這樣的裝備剛開始你們花了五十幾億去採購這樣子是我們提出需求今天有得到這樣的答案那為什麼我們會提出這樣的需求甚至在過去其實它的戰場的時機並不好的情況底下那現在又要很快的又要去採購這些"},{"start":7932.049,"end":7948.343,"text":"報委員 我就您剛才的提詢我做幾點回應第一點我再一次的報告並沒有如媒體報導所謂五價在我們的實際的涉及當中並沒有媒體報導所謂五價摔掉三價這個情勢那摔幾下 第二個"},{"start":7949.785,"end":7970.983,"text":"這整個的我要報告的是說它符合我們陸軍的需求什麼樣的需求我不單獨的為安德里這家公司去做背書但是我為什麼講它符合我們的需求因為無人機是一個高度迭代的一個彈藥或是一個武器那它可以依照我們的需要"},{"start":7972.364,"end":7975.746,"text":"不斷地去針對我們防禦作戰的要求做韌體軟體的一個提升跟延改那第三個也就是說在未來我們採購的Altus 700跟這個600的ISR這個當中它其實它是運用了一個高度迭代的模型不斷地針對抗干擾還有它的導控"},{"start":7992.996,"end":8003.122,"text":"還有它的這個項的飛鈔以及它的穿透能力去依照我們的需求去做提升跟延改所以這這幾點要向委員做說明參議長你講的是矛盾的我們剛剛講我們提出需求的時候我們已經花了55億去採購可是我們剛剛講的先例就是不管烏克蘭也好不管美國也好它自身其實都沒有做到採購另外"},{"start":8018.43,"end":8034.944,"text":"另外你小額的不要拿來講因為他拿來做他的驗證還沒有過你那個是小量我剛剛說大量使用包括美國自己都還沒有用而且他也不用而且美國的報告裡面產品都是由美國的軍種"},{"start":8035.965,"end":8045.652,"text":"對於合約商 我知道啦 那個跟合約商沒有問題嘛你們剛剛說這是你們自己提出的需求啦所以我現在是說為什麼會提出這個需求剛剛你也提到他必須要迭代的進步可是當我們都還沒有確切的掌握到他的實證 驗證裡面他可以有提升的效果我們現在又急著買後續的我們前面已經買55億了那在"},{"start":8062.803,"end":8087.362,"text":"M跟R跟ISR差在哪裡我只有兩點報告第一個我們前面買的685架的那個台灣刀300跟291架的Altius 600雖然我們是這個291架都已經到貨了但是它仍然還在依照我們的需求去幫我們做軟體跟韌體的提升這是第一點"},{"start":8087.882,"end":8097.067,"text":"為什麼你在買的時候不是就已經要符合我們的需求你才買你花了高達十幾億甚至原來他跌貸都還沒有出來你第一代就這麼差跌貸也還沒有經過驗證而且我們"},{"start":8104.071,"end":8110.277,"text":"他不可能用未來的規格去做現在的驗證他也就是實際上在他遭遇到各項的干擾你現在的驗證就已經是大家都沒有通過的你怎麼會是未來我們現在要的不是未來我們現在要的是現在而且是可以即時發揮戰力他是通過美國Otis-600是通過美國海軍的測試的啊"},{"start":8127.293,"end":8129.235,"text":"請把相關的資訊提供給我們不要只看PTT公司的PTT然後去做這樣的採購如果有然後他非常好請提供相關的資訊"},{"start":8143.169,"end":8167.803,"text":"數據跟驗證資料沒關係參謀長我們希望國防部提供相關的驗證的或者已經測試他一定有他一定是有驗證的或者測試的那個相關資料如果有請提供那另外因為我們要就一點時間在尖針型的無人機的部分因為M是攻擊的嘛ISR是尖針我們為什麼又要買尖針"},{"start":8171.679,"end":8194.753,"text":"因為它基本上這個就有ISR有1導多的功能也就是說一個ISR它大概它可以導600它可以導這個600M也可以導700M那線型的600M它只是一個依照我們的設定去攻擊目標那ISR它基本上至少是達到1導3以上的一個性能"},{"start":8196.65,"end":8209.543,"text":"我們你測試過了嗎這個為將來我們在報我們到美國的專案這個這個專案會議的時候我不是將來就說他已經測試過了嗎我現在要說的是不是你已經測試過了嗎到預算獲得之後到美國去實際的見這個去做這樣的一個性能的"},{"start":8220.505,"end":8240.081,"text":"測試會是我們陸軍未來必要做的一個項目所以你是已經編了預算以後你才要去美國做這樣的測試而不是他經過測試以後驗證可以然後你才買這個部分這個軍售他不是商售我們的對象我們的簽約對象就是美政府也就是美國的專責軍政你可以美這個是有我們是"},{"start":8240.481,"end":8244.424,"text":"我們可以買 因為無人機在很多戰場上面都經過實戰的測證的驗證不管在烏克蘭也好 不管在現在的中東也好其實它有很多的來源它有很多經過實戰驗證然後我們偏偏挑一個還沒有實戰驗證測試通過的這個部分 而且你一次買非常大量而且在很短期的時間我們現在後續我們再可能有一些時間 請如果"},{"start":8267.381,"end":8271.424,"text":"因為你們會指定這樣的廠商然後指定買採購這樣子的一個裝備而且是我們對美國提出要求美國軍售沒有錯可是他是因為因應我們的要求有時候他會建議所以剛剛你說這是我們提出的需求為什麼我們提出這個需求我們希望有比較確切的然後比較好的因為那攸關我們的國家安全今天我們如果花很多的錢然後買到的可能是不好的台灣就這麼大的"},{"start":8296.421,"end":8321.766,"text":"他如果上空有這麼多的無人機然後他很容易掉下來他打到的可能不是敵人他打到的是我們自己然後他有很多的風險我們卻還是採購這樣因為他說槌子降落啊螺旋式的這些失敗的案例我們到底有沒有考慮這個部分也放在我們的特別預算裡面所以我們希望可以審慎的評估每一筆預算我們支持你可以買"},{"start":8322.506,"end":8328.672,"text":"可是你要買至少不合我們作戰需求的這是我們的重點好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員發言黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":8356.448,"end":8358.013,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們有請部長好有請部長"},{"start":8366.195,"end":8391.263,"text":"是 方偉部長早安 部長這樣國家的財政就像家庭財務一樣我們支出增加就會面對資源要重新分配的這個問題當某一項的支出快速的成長那其他的支出勢必就會受到影響那這幾年其實我國的國防預算大幅的增加那2026年接近9500億已經超過GDP的3%我們的賴總統也明確的宣示說未來我們要達到GDP5%的目標"},{"start":8396.805,"end":8415.926,"text":"那如果未來要達到賴總統承諾的這個5%的GDP的這個目標行政院是不是有給我們國防部穩定的財源保證穩定的財源保證跟委員報告齁我先說明一下以115年度為例國防部本身的預算在年度預算是55614"},{"start":8418.117,"end":8446.56,"text":"五六一四那您剛講的九千多億應該就是說我們參照北約的這個不 反正就是說未來我們要達到GDP五百來講啦有沒有穩定的財源給我們我們總統宣示嘛未來我們的GDP要占五百嘛我只是先說明一下我剛講的就是說年度預算是五六一四嘛那當然還有一些其他基金預算等等那因為我們用NATO來算所以還有這個海巡署的還有退伍會的"},{"start":8447.481,"end":8463.417,"text":"那這個先說明一下那第二個當然我們在報告裡面也說明了我們未來三年所一個付款高峰期的持續案的部分大概要有五千七百億的一個預算的需求那另外還有新增案如果我們沒有"},{"start":8463.817,"end":8477.428,"text":"將特別預算擺進來的話大概新政案有700多億的這一個案項也還要獲得滿足所以我們才會提出8年的新興急迫需求一兆2500億的特別預算"},{"start":8478.117,"end":8500.772,"text":"那我的意思是說如果在有沒有穩定的財源的保證如果在沒有穩定財源的情況之下這筆錢要從哪裡來如果按照我們現在我們國房預算的增加速度遠遠高於我們的年度的稅入嘛那如果在未來不加稅然後不去排擠其他預算情況下看來好像也只有常態性的舉債這個部分嘛那"},{"start":8502.17,"end":8511.457,"text":"這個我們要擔心的就是說難道我們因為要這些讓像下一代去備債嗎這件事我要問更具體的問題就是說目前國防預算的這個大幅的成長除了"},{"start":8513.442,"end":8540.331,"text":"年度的預算除了一部分來自舉債以外特別預算大概都是用在這個採購大量的新式武器那新式武器買了之後我們養不養得起這是我的重點那我們未來面對交付的這個高峰期新式裝備陸續的服役本行要請教說未來這些新式武器的作業維持費包括你的維修養護跟這些訓練經費總體規模的推估是多少那是不是有納入長期的財政規劃"},{"start":8542.893,"end":8547.119,"text":"市長 委員報告這個都在我們的規劃範圍之內那詳細的部分要看這個相關的武器裝備"},{"start":8551.756,"end":8578.771,"text":"我們這個區分兩個部分來講我們作為費的部分針對未來五年所需要的那個額度就是新的武器裝備的這個部分會納到我們在建案作業階段的時候就會把它納入那另外一個部分是我們還要配合舊式武器裝備的汰除會兩個一起並同考量然後去衡量這些新式武器裝備未來的預算需求然後做一個年度的一個編列"},{"start":8580.188,"end":8596.025,"text":"所以我們有做這樣的規劃?對有啊現在就是這樣做那如果說我們現在是成本會持續的增加對不對那會不會未來會排擠到我們國防部內部的自己的軍事投資跟人員維持的預算阿梅"},{"start":8598.256,"end":8625.892,"text":"委員的意思是說我們的軍頭的預算帶動了作業維持費的增加那我剛剛已經講過了就是說他在軍頭建案的時候他至少要一開始的時候他就會把兩年的備份料件都會納入進去那之後還要再看這個武器裝備的性質我們會納入全受理的管理來了解這樣的全受理管理之下他的這個維持費會占到多少那不同的武器裝備會有不同"},{"start":8626.172,"end":8645.483,"text":"所以這個本來就要做長年期的規劃所以部長未來是不會影響到嗎那另外還有一個舊裝備還要太儲啊所以這個不斷的是在一個滾動的一個修正當中啊那沒有說我們去籌購一個新的裝備就會使作業維持會一定會"},{"start":8646.483,"end":8657.397,"text":"一定會或一定不會我們本來就要做一個整體的規劃嘛對 本席是說我們買了新的裝備之後未來它養物費會增加嘛新裝備會不會影響它的維持會比舊裝備高啊譬如說你現在新的裝備你M1 A2進來"},{"start":8664.264,"end":8676.842,"text":"那跟你維持一個CM11的作業的維持費這個屬於我們要汰除的部分哪一個維持費會高所以本事問的是會不會影響到會不會這樣所以以後勤來講"},{"start":8679.366,"end":8705.789,"text":"委員好我是侯時事次長向委員報告我們舉CM111例子他進入中售期之後他的維持費比在前售期的時候double所以新的裝備包含我們的備份零附件包含回來之後依照寄令我們去準備的後續的維修料件未必會比老裝備更耗錢這是第一點第二個很多事情都是要推陳出新嘛是我們把老新的裝備買進來之後更符合我的作戰需求"},{"start":8706.089,"end":8733.045,"text":"我老裝備不符合專業需求或是裝備老舊耗更多的作為費我就必須要貸出這中間一定會有一個這個要平衡您問說會不會一定比新裝備買回來之後你要多花錢或是說一定會影響到這沒有辦法做保證因為所有的裝備我們現在還沒有通通都獲得那在獲得之後一定的額度之內我們必須要貸出老裝備把錢投入在新裝備的維護上好"},{"start":8735.97,"end":8762.744,"text":"因為本協會這樣問就是說我們會好奇說我們買了新的裝備勢必你日後的維護費會增加那我們現在是用特別預算採購對不對採購新的裝備那這些裝備日後他是不是還有他的維護費要用那是不是變在一般的預算裡面所以嘛是不是那我要問的時候這些會不會增加那你增加之後你會不會影響到你原本你國防部內部的這些你的規劃你的人事費你的作業費跟你的投資會不會影響到主要是問這一塊"},{"start":8764.205,"end":8785.101,"text":"所以這個部分是要了解到,我們會影響到這樣沒關係,我意思不一樣,對不對不是,但是委員的意思好像先提會有一個命定,就是說一個命定的一個假設,說現狀被禁來,然後維持會不會增加然後會大幅的增加,這一個講法,我想是不對的"},{"start":8786.371,"end":8803.001,"text":"這個講法是不對的部長我們想要了解到就是說我們都支持要買新的武器新的裝備符合我們未來的國防的趨勢來保護這個國家安全但是我們也不希望說買這些東西之後你未來都沒有編列相關的維護費用的時候我們會造成這種情況我們就一直在講我們會編列"},{"start":8806.363,"end":8819.92,"text":"我們這邊有未來10年這個維持那個作業維持費的這個推國服務我們全受期我們在做這個分析的時候都會將全受期的這些維護都全部都要放進來所以這些在我們的作業文件裡面就有一項是專門在做這個的"},{"start":8821.562,"end":8848.444,"text":"因為本系統報告裡面並沒有看到所以要了解說我們到底有沒有做這些東西如果沒有的話我們擔心的是什麼我想我們可以下去以後跟委員詳細的就每一個建案的文件包括從作戰需求系統及其成功向到整體的獲得規劃的每一個項目跟委員做一個報告部長本席想要了解就是說我們擔心的是我們有錢買新的武器我們會不會養不起新武器就像你有能力去買超跑可是你沒有錢去換軍資"},{"start":8850.205,"end":8861.016,"text":"作為環防部長我最擔心的是養一切維修費用很高但是沒有任何作戰能力的所以重點是在他能不能發揮我們整體的作戰"},{"start":8862.369,"end":8875.918,"text":"的需求的能力啦會問這些問題就是說我們在擴張軍備的同時其實我們還是要考慮到後期的規劃的成本我們就是有規劃所以包括那個能力跟資源的部分我們會很願意來跟委員做一個充分的溝通謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"},{"start":8884.462,"end":8913.121,"text":"那部長其實大家其實擔心的是這樣身為民意代表最重要因為專業是國防的部分但民意代表我們身為立法委員我們主要是監督整個財政的狀況這也是為什麼大家在討論這件事情我們擔心的是不只是日後兩會還要包括我們的財政會不會受到衝擊這是我們在考慮的那好那我們也時間差不多了我再問一下另外一個問題就是說在今年1月1號發生台中外F16的這個私事的事件"},{"start":8914.315,"end":8932.07,"text":"我們有軍事雜誌在推斷說是不是跟我們奉產計畫沒有變更老舊的線數有關導致整個戰機飛行的先入老化影響我們電路的系統那不然我們現在已經撈到這個黑盒子了吧對不對是那現在我們整個交召買方關係的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":8933.932,"end":8954.699,"text":"報告委員一般這個黑盒子的判讀大概是需要30天左右但是還是要看黑盒子裡面的狀況因為要看他的資料完整性跟他的這個裡面資料存儲有沒有受到破壞所以說30天這個是至少要30天目前掌握的狀況是這樣那我們也在撈到之後隔天就直接送到美國"},{"start":8955.345,"end":8980.045,"text":"如果說真的像這個雜誌寫的未來這個查到這是跟限入老化有關的話我們國防部是不是有啟動全機隊的這個的特檢跟改善的計畫有嗎報告委員這個已經在112年全數完成我們原本的block兩棟的提升它包含所有限數的更新這個都已經做完了好 謝謝是謝謝主席 謝謝部長 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":8983.291,"end":8990.035,"text":"我們先宣告等一下許巧欣委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請許巧欣委員上台質詢現在主席我們有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":9010.465,"end":9032.714,"text":"部長我們今天要問的是有關於這個教召的部分那國防部在111年7月呢將後備指揮部那一下是編給陸軍114年2月又把這個交給屬性是幕僚單位的權動所來指揮那我先想請問一下現在目前我們這個動員教召的目的可不可以簡要的說明一下"},{"start":9033.624,"end":9054.233,"text":"各位有沒有第一個我們是將後備旅的部隊部隊本身移回給陸軍後備指揮部還在這個權動署底下因為權動署成立之後那後備跟這個權動署結合嘛那屬於動員教召的部分就是屬於權動署的權責範圍內所以委員要問的是指教召的"},{"start":9059.795,"end":9086.852,"text":"沒有 我是剛剛請你簡要說明我的問題在後面就是說教招的部分呢無論是待遇 編制或是裝備都相當的重要這一點國防部還是要注意那所以說呢 在最近在這一次3月14到27號到憲兵這邊14天的教招裡面我相信您應該都有看到相關的新聞了就是呢 發生了這個同工同街 不同酬職務加急 有或沒有的欠薪案例"},{"start":9087.552,"end":9114.574,"text":"那請先說明一下這個案情因為有具體的陳情人他就是表示說他們這個發薪資的時候用先跟他當事人同一個級數的階級比對了一下薪資發現雙方的薪資是不一樣的那所以想請問一下這個案情到底是如何你們了解的狀況目前是怎麼樣以及加配人員補發後續改善的進度為何"},{"start":9115.831,"end":9137.993,"text":"委員好,我是憲民參謀長,針對您所述的案情,我做三點說明第一個就是有關於該飲食是加配德援的規劃,在計劃作業階段有10%是加配德援那加配德援的人力主要是作為在報到之後,因為和民未到其他因素影響整體人力,有所的一個預備兵力的規劃"},{"start":9139.935,"end":9161.339,"text":"那他在邊管系統上這些人也不過不論是幹部或士兵他是沒有領導家籍的就在系統的初始的編程的狀況是如此那第二點就是在3月14號實施動員教召報到之後的確我們幹部有因為報到人力的現況將加推德演的幹部納入領導幹部的編制來實施執行等領導工作"},{"start":9166.4,"end":9184.22,"text":"但是就少做了一個程序就是要完成職務名冊的調整以及同步修訂動員邊管系統一個職務系統的管制所以說在發薪資的時候也造成了薪資以他實際工作的太陽是不符的狀況影響個人的權益"},{"start":9186.542,"end":9201.959,"text":"那第三個,針對上訴的人等我們這一部也全部的清查目前掌握有三位的立案當事人我們都有聯繫來說明我們會按照程序在一週內就是本週,完成所有薪資的撫發"},{"start":9203.14,"end":9224.782,"text":"另外針對這個作業疏失本部也在今天召開了檢討會會針對作業的流程以及對流的不熟悉除了來究責相關檢討幹部之外並加強教育所俗一定要完備相關的程序以避免而後的劣害以上報告好 非常好但是我在想就是說這次是因為有人去反映了"},{"start":9225.362,"end":9240.319,"text":"那但是你們有沒有想過就是說在這一題之前有沒有類似的狀況就是這是第一次發生嘛當然在這一題裡面您剛提到了有三期啦那我當然合理的會覺得說那前一題呢那在上一題呢我們要如何去"},{"start":9241.622,"end":9267.069,"text":"各位報告十四天教召對我們來講是年度第一批那去年呢去年沒有去年沒有今年是第一次第一次十四天官士兵同時報到第一次實施的十四天的官士兵的同時報到我想我會請他們檢討就是說發生這個錯誤的這個原因是什麼那我們因為現在實施十四天的教召會有這種狀況那"},{"start":9269.35,"end":9296.38,"text":"要如何讓他這個錯誤不會再發生這可能是我們要去檢討好那因為你說是第一次嘛好不過因為除了這個憲兵之外那另外我們可以看一下這個陳情仁的說法我剛剛念過了那剛剛您有解釋說這個佳佩德遠沒有領導佳姐的這個部分但我覺得啊因為很多的這個招援他們對於剛剛您所述的這個部分可能不是很清楚"},{"start":9296.92,"end":9313.995,"text":"就如同說你們也是第一次辦所以很多事情可能在沒有很清楚的狀況之下做了一些疏失所以說像這個待遇的部分除了憲兵之外其他的比如說像因為其實在這個新聞底下我去看了滿多的留言又表達他們對於"},{"start":9315.636,"end":9338.929,"text":"這個之前接了這個教召之後比如說你看這個他是陸戰隊的教召那他接了14天的上市的執行官但他被告知說他是加配德援所以他也沒有領導加級所以這個部分可不可以回應一下就是說除了憲兵之外可能其他的軍種是不是也要一併的一起來研究看看有沒有類似的情況來說明一下"},{"start":9339.389,"end":9351.536,"text":"海軍參訪報告 報委員這個我們再下去了解但是因為叫召的情形要看他的正式的位置是不是屬於領導職務才有當然啊當然啊那這個部分我們再下去了解那你看因為他講說他是做的是上市執行官嘛應該就是背一個他可能就部隊集合其他的詳細的事情對 所以你們要講得很清楚嘛"},{"start":9358.72,"end":9369.541,"text":"就是說誰能夠有誰沒有這個要講很清楚那你的這個界定是怎麼界定的這個不是對我說明這個是對來參加教招的招員們要做說明"},{"start":9371.607,"end":9389.708,"text":"我是權動署署長謝謝你這麼關心那我先跟委員報告所謂加配得援他為什麼要多選這個10%或20%就是為了要避免有些我們已經選到的這些招援他因為事故生病或者是入監服役"},{"start":9390.569,"end":9419.545,"text":"他不能來那我們已經把他和免掉要來補充這些人所以應該是在在我們把他和免了那我們用加配得援的這些人來補充的時候他就會有一個編制如果他補充到這個主觀的職務領導的職務那我們將來在薪資上就可以給他有領導加緊照你講的話根本不會出現剛剛的錯誤啊因為你在一開始的時候就已經把大家都分配好了還會有一梯裡面有三個人沒有領導的"},{"start":9420.245,"end":9443.67,"text":"所以報委員 那我們也發覺可能有一些基層的幹部 比如說連長 營長 他們可能不知道這樣子所以我們 你這樣講不太對我們跟你講 因為你是講說 你現在變成是說你前面 就是你前期作業 他來之前就已經把大家的這些任務 然後誰是領多少 這些都已經分配好嘛"},{"start":9444.07,"end":9461.183,"text":"那變成是說基層的幹部按照你的指示下去發那怎麼還會弄錯呢?加配德援他是沒有在編制裡面那把這些和免的人和免掉之後那把加配德援這些人再來充實和免掉的職務這些缺"},{"start":9462.183,"end":9490.782,"text":"所以說可能有一些幹部對這個不了解那我們也要求後備縣市後備責任部他在每一梯叫召的時候都會成立一個事故處理小組我們把這個列為務必要去了解到底有沒有加配德援這樣子的現象我跟您說這一梯是因為裡面有對於國軍薪資結構了解的招援在裡面所以他才反映出這個事件"},{"start":9491.983,"end":9520.661,"text":"如果今天因為只有三個人嘛如果今天剛好那三個人裡面他沒有對於國軍的薪資結構了解的人這個事情就吵吵過去了那就有一些人他根本應得的待遇沒有得到但是卻沒有人為他發聲所以這件事情就像顧部長講的請你們要好好檢討是再來我要問一下一樣是縣執部齁那這個縣訓中心叫招的人員的軍種就我了解齁像以這個梯子來說只有三分之一是憲兵而已啊是嗎"},{"start":9522.321,"end":9539.833,"text":"是的剩下三分之二哪來的其他因為憲兵專場不是高階專場所以說遭援不足的話會統一有後備職務來做同階的專場調配所以人不是原單位編組也是另外一層"},{"start":9541.074,"end":9558.753,"text":"這樣子我們在訓練作戰能力還是只是集合演練我可以理解對於憲兵人員來說是不足的我們人數上是比較少所以去找了其他的軍種湊合去做教招可是這個大前提是不是要一一明確的告知他們戰時本來應該要動員的去處跟編制"},{"start":9562.196,"end":9568.1,"text":"因為這個事情發生之後我就有去找這一梯次的一些的交易員去詢問他們在這14天的這個叫招的狀況結果很多人告訴我們說呢他原本的專長跟他叫招的專長第一個完全不一樣"},{"start":9577.685,"end":9602.115,"text":"第二個他要來如果在戰時要去哪裡在做準備的地點也都有變動那在這種情況之下如果我們每一次叫招的時候能夠給的指令是不同的那我們就會很懷疑說現在這樣的叫招他有沒有符合我們國軍整體的叫招的作戰需求報委員跟你說明一下就是"},{"start":9603.305,"end":9618.576,"text":"因為我們之前並沒有這麼多的一年期的我們當然都知道可是你們今天上路了就要做好我們現在動員的優先順序就是常備部隊優先把它"},{"start":9619.477,"end":9640.768,"text":"尤其是把它鞭死而且是這個沒有啦 因為我時間有限你直接回答我的問題好不好我剛剛的問題很簡單就是你的這個軍種這樣子湊然後呢來的時候的地方你當初的專長到現在又改變然後又重學然後呢你要去的這個地點當初講的跟現在來教導的時候又不一樣這件事情要不要解決要不要討論啊怎麼處理啊"},{"start":9645.871,"end":9665.757,"text":"我們編時當然就是優先滿足然後再來是擴編動員然後他最後才是戰號梯隊那他這個這個後勛重心他是屬於擴編動員所以說編時選完的他剩下的並沒有那麼多那麼多原本是這個單位的原本是這個單位的所以說我們就擴大選員來充實這個擴編動員的這個部隊"},{"start":9670.618,"end":9698.26,"text":"也就是說跟委員報告啦現在就是說國安部的我這邊的政策很簡單就是說第一個指名指名的部分那是屬於最需要的指名的他不一定要原兵歸原委那接下來辨識動員的部分原則上原兵歸原委因為就是主戰部隊或者是這個常備部隊裡面他要辨識動員讓他形成激戰力擴編動員的部分我必須誠實的跟委員報告擴編動員的部分現在還有很多努力的空間尤其是要結合這一個"},{"start":9699.08,"end":9711.294,"text":"過去我們四個月我們現在看的是過去的四個月軍事訓練役他確實的訓練的不足以及未來一年期義務役如何能夠真實的編到擴編動員不管是首備旅的部分不管是後備旅的部分我們這些部分"},{"start":9713.797,"end":9728.745,"text":"手臂理的部分我們也要利用一年期一物一把它編實那後續還有一些相關的擴編動作所以這些部分我必須承認我們還有很多進步的空間這個進步的空間是源自於我們過去長期的四個月的軍事訓練的訓練不足"},{"start":9730.806,"end":9739.815,"text":"的情況之下所造成的而我們必須要利用一點時間去逐步的透過這個政策的改進然後執行的經時然後再能夠透過實戰化的訓練才能夠達到真正的後備的即戰力我同意您的說法但是因為現在教招已經上路了"},{"start":9746.921,"end":9757.794,"text":"這些招員也是已經都14天14天的都去了那如果是有這個狀況的話你們在一開始在召集大家的時候也應該在一開始的時候要把整體就是說現在面臨的這個情況跟大家說清楚因為很多的招員他是覺得很疑惑就是說我的編組我先前的專長跟我未來被分到的地點"},{"start":9767.625,"end":9790.919,"text":"那不斷的調動他自己都搞得很混亂了所以當然有努力的空間這個也需要時間我們都願意給國防部時間但對於實際上已經參與的叫招的招員而言這個部分還是需要跟他們做說明的最後因為我剛講三個部分待遇 部隊編制最後一個是個人裝備我們現在叫招的公發的野戰戰棚因為我時間不夠的關係我直接講"},{"start":9793.601,"end":9803.558,"text":"在175公分以上的身高躺在這個野戰帳篷裡面他的腳是無法伸直躺平的請問各位長官知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":9808.345,"end":9830.75,"text":"有修改的空間嗎沒有也可以直接告訴我我就是了解一下因為蠻多招員在反映說身高稍微你不要說比較高啦一般高的175公分的這個招員他們在公發的野戰帳篷裡面14天當中他這個整個過程齁那基本上都是腳沒有辦法躺平的這個狀態"},{"start":9835.575,"end":9856.227,"text":"市長這個部分我們下去了解完之後請你們下去了解好嗎因為針對這一梯次的因為有這個這個招員他提出薪資問題之後那當然我們對於這一次包含是他的薪資部隊編制以及他的個人裝備我們都去做了一個了解台灣男性成年平均的身高是172.1公分"},{"start":9858.248,"end":9874.545,"text":"如果175公分的男性他就沒有辦法在帳篷裡面躺平那我們的整個設備上面可能是有需要調整的所以這個部分麻煩齁我知道你們需要時間去調查了解但請給我一個時間然後給我確切的回覆好嗎因為我時間也不是很夠了"},{"start":9875.106,"end":9895.361,"text":"報告委員兩周之內 您可以好 謝謝 那這個叫招的部分部長 您也提到了有一些需要精進的空間那我們會給國防部時間但是招員向我們反映的事情我也有責任在這裡幫招員向我們的國防部去反映希望國防部能夠越做越好好 謝謝委員好 我們先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10212.213,"end":10215.835,"text":"我們現在開始開會不好意思 招委已經站到台上了我們請部長請顧部長"},{"start":10235.217,"end":10256.434,"text":"是 陳偉業部長好 其實部長我們上個禮拜這個整個特別條例的審議的時間我們足足加上答辯總共有三天那我們把所有整體的軍購委制跟商購的部分它的重要性跟它的迫切性那其實不僅是跟在野黨來表示也是跟全國的國人同胞來表示"},{"start":10257.199,"end":10273.964,"text":"那我必須還是要強調因為在上一次的整個討論的過程當中因為我是這個會議的主持人比較沒有時間把這一個的重要性來去講述那其中有包含的幾個戰場上面的提示我覺得透過這次的集會也要跟全民來報告"},{"start":10275.154,"end":10288.137,"text":"那在討論過程中在黨有提到說在中東伊朗的無人機他突破以色列的鐵穹那對於伊朗的這個攻擊能力基本上他們是是肯定的"},{"start":10288.939,"end":10306.896,"text":"那一方面他們說以色列的這個防空鐵穹它是有缺陷的那這不就正代表著說我們的國防特別條例一定要儘速通過嗎因為如果它的無人載具是有用的那我們委資跟商購的三千多億元那就必須要被包括"},{"start":10307.777,"end":10327.533,"text":"如果以色列的鐵穹是有用的 那我們的T-Dome 台灣之盾也要被包裹如果以色列從中被無人載具所突破的 那我們必須要去精進所以不論如何軍購 偽製 商購 它都同時必須迫切要獲得的能力"},{"start":10328.334,"end":10343.395,"text":"那這三千多億裡面的無人載具其實也包含著這種不對稱戰力我們常常在看到烏克蘭戰場上看到的在伊朗戰場上看到的在以色列突破他們的防空系統上也看到的我們同時要具備矛跟盾不是矛與盾的這個問題而已"},{"start":10345.097,"end":10372.91,"text":"同時我們必須要把對方的他們的遠程投射火力必須要給予移除不然他們會持續對台灣輸入火力同時我們要有完整的防空體系所以這樣的狀況之下我們不能夠單純的去說過去因為這個軍購怎麼樣所以我們沒有辦法我們必須要來去把這個商購維持然後來去排除等等的那另外一方面我們也聽到這一檔也有提到一點就是說那美方的這個延宕怎麼辦那我們又不能夠給予罰款"},{"start":10374.051,"end":10387.55,"text":"那這不是代表說我們更要商購嗎因為在商購裡面是不是可以增加一些這個罰款或者是相關的這些條例是這樣子嗎部長因為你是法律專家商購的部分確實比較可以設計這個部分那因為經過"},{"start":10388.695,"end":10417.278,"text":"是屬於政府對政府那美國的軍購的這些內容它都是全球統一的所以剛剛關於有關違約的這個事項的這個罰則的部分當然就沒有辦法在軍購裡面做當然在商購裡面就可以設計我們可以在商購裡面設計嗎所以這一方面也回應在野黨的擔憂嘛就是說如果你覺得說那軍購會有延宕的話那我們可以在商購上面在條約的應該說在契約的設計裡面我們可以把它包含這些懲罰型的契約是不是可以這麼做是"},{"start":10418.559,"end":10443.655,"text":"那這樣的話我們是不是取得戰力的這一個方式就是更多更彈性那所以我們必須把這1.25兆我們要整體這七大項裡面把它我們不是說缺一不可而是說你把這個條例通過之後我們可以在預算裡面再來討論就剛剛其實在野黨委員有提到說有一些過去不管是在軍購或者是商購裡面的這些缺陷或者是有為師的部分"},{"start":10445.205,"end":10463.021,"text":"那我們就可以在預算上面來討論所以條例這一個架構過去之後未來在預算上面在野黨的委員們要嚴審這其實是本來就是在野黨委員的職權我們是絕對是尊重的而且我們認為這也是必要的這是對整體的國防也是會能夠增進的"},{"start":10464.284,"end":10490.536,"text":"但是如果沒有這個條例的話我們怎麼樣把這些預算包裹進去呢所以剛才也有提到預算法的這個第84條或者是緊急動用一部分來去補足說我們之前跟人家簽約軍購必須要先把這個第一部分的款項先給的部分那就代表說我們這些急迫性已經非常趕了所以在整個軍事條例裡面我們有看到國民黨的版本未來我們希望可以在朝野協商的時候再討論一下"},{"start":10491.636,"end":10504.55,"text":"就不必分成兩次軍購嘛因為你分成兩次條例的話那我們不是又要再重來一次又要重審一次條例這還是會有時間的那每一次的時間差我看是從這個發價書整個時間差大概是35天左右"},{"start":10506.892,"end":10535.189,"text":"那我們每次都要這樣子很被迫要快速的再去審條例再重新再去審條例不能在一個條例裡面就把這個整個包裹的辦法做完那未來在預算審查的時候是不是更加的有便利性是不是更加的能夠來去面對嚴峻的國防的挑戰所以這個部分我是想要先先把我上個禮拜沒有回應在野黨委員的時間想在這個地方再跟國人說明一下如果你覺得軍購它有延宕那我們把上購包含進去"},{"start":10535.689,"end":10561.944,"text":"如果你覺得商購裡面沒有軍購嚴謹跟可以輸出這種比較大型的這種只有這個透過政府跟政府能夠更完整的來包括的話那也請支持軍購不要把它一分為二所以這次我還是要強調這一個軍購案 商購案 委資案它是缺一不可但是它可以在預算的時候我們再把它的這個如果覺得哪一條或者是說哪一個款項認為說它有不穩之處或者是有不妥之處"},{"start":10564.085,"end":10572.456,"text":"那是可以來做商討的 是可以進監督的那如果沒有條例的話那我們接下來做的每件事情都會去拖慢那第二個部分我請這個權棟署署長"},{"start":10586.298,"end":10612.886,"text":"署長好 署長你們有包含這個管理災害這個防救的這種協調嘛對不對有協調好那是這樣我發覺到說我們現在不管是在我們的選區嘉義縣也好或者是各個縣市也好那每一個活動中心它在重大的不管是風災或者是天然災害的時候或者是未來可能我們不知道地區性衝突的時候它都會有扮演重要的角色因為必須它緊急狀況它要容納災民嘛"},{"start":10615.347,"end":10634.836,"text":"那我們遇到一個問題就是基本上我看過的所有的活動東西各個鄉鎮的大概十之八九都沒有發電機都沒有發電機就是柴油的也好這種緊急臨時的發電機那過去在風災的時候不管是雲嘉南地帶就大量的時間是停電的就是說甚至有十天十二天甚至十三天的"},{"start":10635.296,"end":10655.827,"text":"那這個狀況之下 活動中心裡面的這個發電機它是對整個穩定民心是很重要的那前天也是在這個場地我們跟這個烏克蘭的軍人還有一些相關的團體在這邊召開關於我們防禦任性的會議給我們一個很重要的建議就是"},{"start":10656.767,"end":10671.15,"text":"把發電機盡可能的配備在所有可能民生或者是重要基礎設施需要的地方那我現在看起來是沒有啦那當然這個群眾署可能是負責協調啦但是我覺得這個是一個極端重要的事情因為"},{"start":10672.071,"end":10695.954,"text":"一再的講這件事情 我們要講我們的韌性韌性最重要的是水跟電沒有水跟電就沒有辦法穩定民心沒有辦法穩定軍心那對於他們的士氣就會打擊烏克蘭是有冬天的 我們是有夏天的那這個東西都是很嚴峻的狀況希望全動數可以跨部會的盡快來去協調我們全台的幾個活動中心現在有百分之多少有發電機 簡易型的發電機至少要我們"},{"start":10696.514,"end":10713.531,"text":"先度過24到72小時好不好跟委員報告他現在就是說我們要有一個類似微電網這種概念的一個設計讓他能夠維生的系統能夠自我維持那學校的部分因為之前他有在上面有那個光電的一個設備"},{"start":10714.492,"end":10731.479,"text":"所以如果說他有一個發電機那他可以在白天有電的時候他可以然後用儲能的部分把它儲下來到晚上的時候那如果不足再用發電機如果因為一直用發電機的話這個我們都同意就是部長你講所以他就會有一個"},{"start":10732.439,"end":10747.512,"text":"利用這個再生能源利用儲能的系統利用一個發電機做一個自我維持的一個那我想這個部分在過去就我從在我國安會的時候就已經在討論那現在國安會也有在相關做這樣的一個討論不過"},{"start":10749.634,"end":10763.732,"text":"我必須說現在相關的這些設備,這個還需要第一個要有預算,第二個可能要做一些示範第三個就是說國民要逐步的能夠接受這樣子的一個"},{"start":10765.713,"end":10782.543,"text":"設施然後在那裡最主要就是儲能系統那一塊謝謝部長這個是我們必須要做的我們該做的那但是就是時間不會等人因為2014年發生第一次的這一個烏克蘭的衝突的時候那大家都沒有準備好那我們已經看到他們在做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":10784.004,"end":10809.362,"text":"摧毀關鍵基礎設施摧毀他們所有的電網有微電網當然是最好的如果沒有的話快速的應變的方式是什麼我們自己要先想清楚因為老實說上次我在我們西口鄉它是西口鄉公所的備用的發電機是完全沒有辦法用的在風災的時候所以點檢每一個各個鄉鎮公所或者是區公所或者是我們看重要的節點它一定要定期的去維護那最後部長我還是講一下"},{"start":10811.483,"end":10831.957,"text":"我們看到盧秀燕市長她首度表態她是支持通過八千億到一兆元那我認為在野黨的這一個重要的領袖開始有釋放出這樣的善意我是覺得這是一個進步那當然我們還是希望說能夠盡量包含所有的項目不是多少錢 重點是包含這七大項"},{"start":10832.958,"end":10853.767,"text":"那所以如果有機會的話我們是更希望能夠跟在野黨的領袖再去溝通不管是現任的領袖或者是卸任的領袖我們還是希望說這1.25兆它是條例預算的時候作為在野黨的立法委員當然是可以監督而且是可以強力監督的但是如果沒有這個條例沒有這1.25兆這七大項的話"},{"start":10856.408,"end":10871.631,"text":"那我覺得這可能對我們未來的國防會有一些挑戰也是很嚴峻的挑戰那其實時間是不會等的我們現在看到說各個區域的衝突不斷地在擴大當中甚至是在重疊當中那我們沒有辦法保證說下一個"},{"start":10872.532,"end":10886.653,"text":"我們會不會遇到同樣的這個衝突那如果遇到這樣的衝突的話我們有沒有準備好就包含我們剛剛跟權動署講的這些部分我們現在看起來還沒有盡快當然知道預算上面有它的問題但是電力還是重中之重再請"},{"start":10887.714,"end":10904.628,"text":"是 我想盧市長的講話裡面有一個是說不需要等待發酵數這個部分我覺得非常同意就這個部分是大家要能夠理解我們的整個建案成績第二個就是說盧市長好像也提到就是說不要只限於軍購也包括商購跟國內"},{"start":10906.242,"end":10927.232,"text":"採購的部分 我看到他的新聞上面專訪是這樣用的那我覺得這次也打造費用供應跟在地化產線讓我們有國航任性一個非常重要的部分我們希望建立在這個善意上面在這個部分我們希望也能夠來盡量跟各委員在持續溝通好 那我們就努力好不好 謝謝接下來請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":10942.389,"end":10971.483,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請顧部長請顧部長是 王偉部長就在我們這個執行的這個當下這個美國的參議院的跨黨派的議員現在正在總統府跟總統在討論相關的事情這個事情官部了解他們最主要執行的目的為何"},{"start":10974.189,"end":10998.976,"text":"我想參議員來訪這個跨黨派的這個來訪表示對我們的台灣的支持我想這個是幾乎是在我看起來是不分黨派那對我們要增強我們的這個國防的實力然後來在印太參與這個集體嚇阻然後增強我們的防衛的實力我想他們也應該是"},{"start":11000.136,"end":11026.678,"text":"要表達的就是要支持我們不斷的持續增強我們的防衛實力來共同在印太地區不要形成破口能夠有效的來維持印太區域以及台海的和平穩定好 那就在這一個同時國民黨的主席鄭麗文宣布4月7號要上北京去討論"},{"start":11029.299,"end":11051.611,"text":"這個不管什麼事情,東西就對了,有美國的議員來,國民黨說要串團去北京按照現在立法院的時程,這個禮拜三可能會召集國防特別條例的朝野協商因為大陣子拜五啊,大清明節、兒童節、放假嘛"},{"start":11052.509,"end":11078.961,"text":"所以最快本地啊 本地是後禮拜五你歡迎就你 就應該通過這個國防特別條例啦就這個大家要花時間就是這樣啊 國民黨剛才鄭麗雯又要撤退了 我說要緊要緊 這一定又拖下去啦我算過時程最快最快啦我們知道國民黨 國民黨去 董事會去 不可能這麼久沒去啦"},{"start":11080.121,"end":11107.504,"text":"這兩位一定會去,這兩位如果去,我這就反而二讀三讀,這我看困難我算過差不多四月十七,才有可能通過四月十七通過之後,你們就再上議程那如果按照這個時程,剛剛部長有提到這一個海馬斯這事情可能五月底,你們有一個退論的時間,差不多五月底你看這有越來越緊急"},{"start":11110.58,"end":11120.574,"text":"有沒有覺得這個事情,因為我們這個市長啊,說我們有算過差不多五月底嘛,市長這段時間啊,這麼辛苦,讓美國人在抄襲的事情,我看這個美國人,叫我們台灣人講話就是說,還給你最好的一道機會啦!"},{"start":11128.456,"end":11139.271,"text":"最後一個機會,你看這個五月底如果按照立法院這個時程國安部可能要花更多力,跟國民黨溝通,市長部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":11142.99,"end":11168.541,"text":"我們只能說有一些關鍵的包括能力的那個建構的項目還有那個上限的這個金額看起來是現在還沒辦法得到交集那我是期望能夠盡快進行這個協商的時候這個部分能夠有所交集那我還是在這邊呼籲說"},{"start":11170.562,"end":11184.712,"text":"條例的一兆兩千五百億這個條例案能夠通過那我們等預算報上來之後那大家再跟各位持續溝通那我們當然希望希望能夠在"},{"start":11186.806,"end":11204.158,"text":"最好能夠在4月就會有一個好的結果因為剛才你有說一般花架書的事情一開始兩邊如果有這個初步的討論那基本上立法院就有可能開始審議就開始變議帳議帳通過之後花架書才會來花架書來大家簽約納期大概是這樣的一個順序"},{"start":11213.064,"end":11227.292,"text":"那個建案的程序是先建案,建案之後我們把建案文件送行證,核定之後上議席等禮拜,禮拜之後立法院先審,審之後看過程當中,如果涉及軍購的部分"},{"start":11229.933,"end":11249.183,"text":"就是要看有智慧國會,如果有智慧國會預算可以公開,如果沒有智慧國會就改經營預算來審所以意思就是說,普通都是預算先過後,還有發價書你講的是過去的做法?正常的這次拖延的是國防部嗎?你不知道要上什麼條例?我們已經11月就上了"},{"start":11257.441,"end":11277.574,"text":"所以拖延的不是你們?我們是希望說,本來是希望說上禮拜之後就可以...那我這樣問好了,過去如果像你們11月送進來,過去啦,相關的這些東西,你差不多幾個月內,立法院這議程就會通過了?跟之前的經驗?這不一定"},{"start":11282.419,"end":11294.248,"text":"如果以前面那個海空戰力提升跟F16V BLOCK擺動的這兩個案子,通常在八月底左右條例送進來,十月底到十一月初之間,那個預算會通過?"},{"start":11298.745,"end":11315.778,"text":"這樣子看起來大概是三個多月接近四個月三四個月嘛對,條例加預算轉播啦轉播就是說從你們送進立法院開始大概四個月應該預算會完成然後後面這個相關包括發價書也是在那個後面"},{"start":11318.2,"end":11337.066,"text":"因為重點還是後面的預算書表,因為裡面有很多項目在過去審議的過程當中委員會非常認真地針對每一個項目去有項目有數量有金額嘛對,全部所以這次算李煥儀有拖到不過這個還是要請部長跟市長再多費點心不然沒辦法,你像今天盧秀恩說的,盧秀恩說的都假的"},{"start":11345.267,"end":11358.333,"text":"如秀恩說的,你們要收緊聽聽,我們上禮拜三、四天,到一個日子,我委員說八千億、百億、九千億,一個就沒有了,那些都是假的,那些都是以前假的,重點是他們八千億、百億、九千億,上禮拜三天,你們一個人說就沒有,一個人說,所以你們要預作一個準備,就是說立法院如果真的通過實行,只有三千八百億,看你們要怎麼樣,"},{"start":11372.401,"end":11377.524,"text":"施長你看你什麼,不是說回去你說,你如果叫美國人通電話的時候,人家說你不是跟我講的很多,要3800億,施長你這樣沒誠信這事情可能要想想看,我想你叫美國人講的時候,應該是一直拜託,說我們有些時間,我們國內有我們國內"},{"start":11394.854,"end":11420.424,"text":"審查的這個過程,快了快了快了,應該快了,我們要溝通可能有這樣的對話出現,但是真的同歸3800億這市長你跟美國人說話,我看有多麻煩這可能對我們國家,搞美國之間的誠信問題因為我知道你們很期待立法院趕快把這個事情"},{"start":11422.385,"end":11436.438,"text":"條例通過預算送進來然後審議然後完成這個預算的這個書表都通過之後你們才有辦法跟美國跟其他國家有後續的商討嘛應該是這樣啦好最後"},{"start":11440.589,"end":11468.114,"text":"請這個部長跟相關的單位,可以有人問到這個極致顧問的事情這個公司當然對在國安部相關的單位裡頭得標的案子只有兩件可是他們投標的案子不是只有兩件有到國安部相關的投標的,不是投標的他們也投了法務部的案子他們也投了這個榮總的案子"},{"start":11469.178,"end":11477.869,"text":"他們也投了高速公路局的案子這些案子的案名看起來啊大部分都跟資料庫有關"},{"start":11480.071,"end":11502.896,"text":"所以尤其國安部有些小額的 說一百萬一人 一百萬幾十萬的不要輕忽尤其後面如果要讀到我們裡面相關的資料庫的這個大家都要特別注意一下 因為你是國安部所以這一些在提醒裡面要特別的注意不要說這間公司啦 就是說"},{"start":11504.756,"end":11528.782,"text":"有時候你們用最低標啦,有時候有評選啦,看起來那個薪額對共和國相關的單位來說,也沒有多啦就不要輕忽,因為那個都會進去處理到資料庫的問題好,義雄謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝委員提醒好,謝謝接下來,請劉許廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11535.521,"end":11535.966,"text":"謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":11545.962,"end":11572.594,"text":"部長辛苦了我們今天的主題是年度軍事投資計畫跟財政負擔能力的平衡評估那當然這個在質詢前我特別看了一下這次這個部裡面的報告這個在裡面的篇幅裡面當然還是花了很大的篇幅跟空間去說明特別預算的一些必要性那也講了在公務預算編列的時候的一些困境這些東西本席都看到了但我想今天排這樣子的議程的重點應該是總體財政能力的負擔"},{"start":11573.835,"end":11600.236,"text":"所以今天把這個我覺得也不能單看特別預算嘛你應該是看整體台灣的國防支出嘛跟整體台灣的財政狀況有一個綜合性的評估這樣子比較容易能夠消除社會大眾的疑慮也能夠在各黨分歧的狀況之下去找到一定的共識我想部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法吧對 我們事實上在討論這個專案報告要怎麼寫的時候特別是就那個財政負擔能力的部分"},{"start":11601.451,"end":11620.394,"text":"我們國防部是提需求啦那最後其實要看那個主機總署是的所以我們也沒有辦法在這個報告裡面直接去寫得非常的清楚主機總署就只能給我多少問題是這不是我的權如果我講的那個那我國防部的需求我可以提"},{"start":11621.457,"end":11638.228,"text":"但是不見得能夠被實行這我完全理解國防部的危難之處這是我們過去這麼多年以來跟的一些狀況這我想在上禮拜的法案審查討論的時候其實也都有交換過意見我們都非常的清楚這次大家在討論這個特別預算等等的時候這個淡江的"},{"start":11638.988,"end":11652.358,"text":"大學的占研所的助理教授接種他有一篇投書大概把幾個警示我姑且講他是提醒善意的提醒做了一些提醒那今天就討論一下因為我蠻好奇國防部要怎麼樣回應這些問題他說"},{"start":11654.739,"end":11675.768,"text":"這個連年編列高額的採購特別預算雖然你用特別預算的方式可以直接避免去排擠一般的正式支出也就是說你面對主計總署的壓力但他同時會造成他提醒了三個副作用第一個叫做國防支出的結構失衡第二個是資源力的人力不足的問題第三個是舉債金額的增加我們就一個一個來探討我蠻好奇國防部對於這件事情的意見這個有關於國防"},{"start":11677.509,"end":11705.125,"text":"支出的結構失衡 概念是這樣子我們國防的支出就全部國防部正常預算大概就三大類人員維持費 人事費用作業維持費 也就是我武器要保養有的時候要合理的更新等等那第三個才是大家覺得比較常態比較直觀了解的就是說軍事的投資也就是說購買武器或者是投資新的產線等等大概分成是三塊那麼從國防部的公務預算的表格裡面預算中心整理的"},{"start":11706.306,"end":11728.571,"text":"大體上你可以看出來近年來是增加幅度這個我們都不討論了這個大家都很清楚的總是有必要的這個我們都理解但是你要看我今天想要點的是比例的問題也就是在過去的時候原則上這個作業維持費跟軍事投資費用它大概是一個平衡的狀況彼此之間的金額不會差太多原來越多的武器就代表你未來有越多的維護管養的這樣子的一個需求嘛那從"},{"start":11729.711,"end":11755.509,"text":"過去這幾年國防部的公務預算來講它是一個相對平衡 相對穩定的一個狀態好 但現在問題來了我們今天提出了新的所謂的特別條例這一照2500億當然它是分年來編列那當然這表示著我們未來武器的採購會大幅的增加那麼武器採購的增加但我沒有看到目前國防部針對武器增加之後未來的作業維持費用的增加做出財政的預估跟說明"},{"start":11756.329,"end":11779.453,"text":"所以我想這也是這個接種教授有提到的這個會不會造成支出結構的嚴重失衡呢因為現在看起來是一比一啊可是你如果把未來好幾年大概都要加一千多億兩千億的軍事投資的預算那麼這一比一它可能變成一比1.5甚至變成1.2就是大量的採購但是作為維持費我們現在看不到未來的變化趨勢嘛對不對那麼請問這一段國防部的說明是什麼呢"},{"start":11779.878,"end":11795.851,"text":"那委員我們這個要跟委員報告一下接種教授他裡面提的資訊裡面因為他沒有辦法拿到我們完整的沒關係我都理解你們就回應吧那太除舊裝備是節約我們作為非常重要的一環我舉這次的海馬斯為例"},{"start":11796.932,"end":11820.602,"text":"海馬士是準備汰除目前我們現役的M118吋流自走炮跟M109A2自走炮那目前這兩個自走炮它的那個年度的作為費的額度都已經佔了相當高的部分到時候等到我們海馬士進來這兩個舊型裝備之後汰除之後就可以節約大量的那個作為費"},{"start":11821.963,"end":11842.151,"text":"那目前當然我們要解決的主要還是航財的問題因為作為費裡面因應中共敵情威脅的提升航財的消耗事實上一直在提升我們也有一個完整的規劃在我們新機進來之後我們會做一個調控機制讓作為費能夠維持在一個比較可控的狀況"},{"start":11842.791,"end":11870.46,"text":"您今天質詢的時間其實是非常短的當然也沒有辦法透過三言兩語把話講清楚我的意思是說我想今天大家想要看到的報告裡面其實是包含一個相對長期的作業維持費就是你如果有合理增加的狀況那你如何避免這一段去做正式的排擠如果你講因為有部分的太儲所以你可以有做部分的節約你也要有一個年度非常清楚的表格也就是說預估未來的你特別預算都是要大家授權八年為這樣子的一個規模這本身就很有爭議的事情"},{"start":11871.4,"end":11896.992,"text":"如果這部分沒有辦法說明清楚 那疑慮就會在所以我今天講的是善意提醒 我想教授寫這個也是善意提醒我們希望看到 會後你就提供吧這八年來有關於作業維持費 未來八年的財政預估哪些項目增加了 哪些項目減少了 每年的數字大概是怎麼樣會不會排擠到 我軍事投資特別預算沒關係啊可是作業維持往上 你是不是還是會面對我國防部扣打不夠啊 主計總書又有意見然後造成一些執行上的困難"},{"start":11897.592,"end":11902.968,"text":"是不是可以請國防部在會後提供完整八年有關人員維持、作業維持跟軍事熟知的完整的財務規劃報告"},{"start":11904.344,"end":11930.219,"text":"提送資料沒問題那給我10秒鐘跟委員報告可以的請委員看一下這個表裡面114年度的作業維持費是1476億是的那我跟委員報告115年我們的作業維持費額度是1990億我們成長的幅度已經差不多34%所以我們在增加軍事投資的同時我們一定會去同步考量作業維持費的預算需求這個先跟委員做個報告"},{"start":11931.019,"end":11946.519,"text":"對 所以我才講這未來8年增加的不會只是1.25兆或者是不管到最後通過多少數字這個相關的採購的增加一定會上升嘛採購支出會上升作業維持費上升這8年的預估也是要很明確的這樣說明才會清楚這是本期的這個提醒"},{"start":11946.94,"end":11969.598,"text":"報告委員我可以借也是一樣十秒鐘可以沒問題請我們在每一年上五年的兵力整建計畫的時候同時我們會上五年的兵力汰除的規劃我們也考慮到這個橫平性它要如何利用作為費來支撐我們後續新制武器裝備而且現在的武器裝備它的能力可能都比傳統的武器裝備它的效率可能會更高對所以我覺得你資料提供越完整它其實是有助於溝通的好不好"},{"start":11970.078,"end":11997.461,"text":"第二個他的質疑當然就是有關於志願役人力嘛因為新的編裝新的專業新的什麼但我們的編線筆這個是老問題了嘛待遇增加如果大家又各執一執也沒意思但我想他的質疑不無道理我們也希望國防部在人力調度的方面比如說之前無人機加急卡了好久對不對這些問題你要能夠做減少啊現在如果真的有這個特別預算的編列新式武器的再支出我們的人力的部分要怎麼樣來跟上呢是不是可以請部長簡單回答"},{"start":11998.573,"end":12025.59,"text":"我們人力的部分在114年度來看我們的邊縣比已經達到80%然後我們資源人數增加了4000人然後我們的流運力也增加我想這個部分我們會來持續來努力那另外也跟委員報告我們現在因為實施一年期的義務役嘛所以一年期的義務役對我們整個相關人力的充實也很重要那當然義務役的部分我們比較有一個"},{"start":12027.031,"end":12045.318,"text":"長時間的一個從事一個從這一個新訓到駐地到基地到這個聯合作戰的這個能力的整個訓練所以這個能力的部分在EWE他們在他們一般高峰會在他們大學畢業的那一年會形成一個比較穩定的EWE的來源"},{"start":12045.798,"end":12058.143,"text":"所以我們一方面增加志願役的人力,志願役高端的人才,一方面我們對於151要做一個充足的訓練。當然志願役也要做完全實戰化的訓練,所以我們不斷的結合。"},{"start":12061.665,"end":12077.297,"text":"這兩部分那我們希望來因應我們持續未來人員的需求這個本席一路以來都是主張啦就是說隨著戰爭形態的改變專業性的提升科技元素的導入等等未來的專業性其實是很重要的所以志願役我認為是絕對不可或缺的"},{"start":12077.677,"end":12096.504,"text":"在這一段為什麼我們那麼強化那麼強調相關的待遇的一個提升而且是總體的大幅的提升其實不外乎就是希望國防部有充足的人員那當然這我們未來有機會討論這個人力擴充的專案報告的時候我們再來詳細的去談幾個方向再來跟部長來討論那我們就一樣這提醒這人力的部分請國防部如果可以的話你也可以提供一下報告啦"},{"start":12096.704,"end":12125.954,"text":"就是說我配合你的這個軍購你現在的這個很大的這樣一個構想之後我的人員這個相關的配套措施我是希望國防部可以提供更多的資料來以利說明那最後一個部分當然是有關於財政支出的部分像我們前一段時間通過的這個關稅因應國際歧視的特別預算裡面它其實還有一部分是可以用所謂的稅計剩餘來做處理那當然國防部也講這幾年經濟成長率不錯啊等等收稅都不錯了那現在如果按照院版這1.25兆我們舉債的比例大概會是多少"},{"start":12131.797,"end":12148.823,"text":"在下一期在外交局外交委會報告的時候其實包含財政部跟主席同事都有說明我們目前的國家的稅率剩餘大概應該沒有剩多少大部分可能就還是要透過舉債的但是會遵守財政具體法相關規範來辦理"},{"start":12150.174,"end":12168.05,"text":"所以意思是說特別條例裡面已經就已舉在的這個額度還是不能夠總量不能夠超過那個公共債務法的相關的規定已經有在這裡面有做過因為我們一照2514分成八年不是一年編列所以這還在我們可以符合財政紀律的這個"},{"start":12170.712,"end":12189.313,"text":"這個我要提醒一下部長我們從再大一點的角度來總體考量其實舉債它到最後它也是會有互相排擠的狀況因為很多的重大正式支出比如說國家的重大建設或者是今天也許我們要因應少子女化還有大額的投資這些到了最後它都有可能也要思考透過舉債的手段來做處理嘛"},{"start":12190.073,"end":12211.659,"text":"那同樣如果今天舉債的額度被大量的佔用的時候它到最後還是一樣它只是排擠的項目不一樣以前叫公務預算的排擠或者是特別預算的排擠甚至未來是債務的排擠這也是未來大家會關心的一點這就是為什麼本席今天特別去強調整個今天的主題也好或者是本席今天質詢的主題也好就是希望它有一個長期的總體的財政評估包含舉債包含人員"},{"start":12213.533,"end":12234.658,"text":"增補包含作業維持這樣一併的清楚的又說明才比較容易讓大家比較能夠接受國防預算大幅增加的狀況當時提八年依照兩千五百億的時候就已經有確實在院裡面就有做過這樣的評估因為部長你講的就只是講說我們會符合財政紀律法的總體規定不夠詳細嘛所以我講逐年的數字嘛"},{"start":12234.858,"end":12254.763,"text":"總要有一些詳細的數字來做一些討論跟別人到底每一年會佔用多少會不會大額的增加如何從其他的地方檢審這些其實都是解決事情的手段跟方式那國防部提供的越詳細大家才有機會比較容易收束這個大家現在是立場不一樣啊但我們要想辦法解決問題嘛所以在收束共識的過程之中提供很多資料我想是很有必要的"},{"start":12255.445,"end":12274.263,"text":"報告委員這邊補充一下如果說牽扯到國家總體財政包含了以前年齡稅率剩餘以及取債的額度多少我想公安部這邊可能沒辦法提供比較具體的資料因為我們可以就1.25兆的部分我們每年我們可能會跟主席總書做個說明看看他那邊能不能做個"},{"start":12274.804,"end":12289.97,"text":"我們做一下研究我想這是國家大事嘛這麼大一筆的支撐跨部會的合作總是有必要的對不對我們會跟主委總書討論討論一下嘛因為每一年的狀況都要預估嘛他們會有一個有一個有一個概算好歹要有預估的東西啦"},{"start":12291.03,"end":12307.513,"text":"那我再提醒一下因為剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候都有提到比如說發價書啊等等這我們在討論的過程中其實本席有講得非常的清楚嘛我一直在問國防部的是你們自己有心理有把握的時間表示什麼對吧那當然我因為不為難大家所以你講這總會有一個溝通的一些過程但是我也提醒啦就善意提醒嘛"},{"start":12307.893,"end":12335.464,"text":"如果這些東西時間表可以非常的明確有更清楚的一些輪廓的時候它其實也是有助於達成共識的我覺得今天我們就不要再講立場了但是我們要一起想方法所以本期今天提出的一些這樣的要求希望國防部盡快的整理相關財政負擔的這樣子的一個報告來有助於未來法案也好預算也好的討論可以嗎我們財政負擔的部分我們跟主席總署來討論好不好OK好那就麻煩國防部希望大家可以大家可以最終可以達成共識啦謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12337.689,"end":12343.251,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國務部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12361.897,"end":12367.299,"text":"是 賴委員部長 這個說這兩天有美國幾個參議員來你又跟他們見面吧我我因為要上綠花園所以總是要跟他們見面啊有通知你嘛 對不對"},{"start":12385.038,"end":12401.807,"text":"計劃是有 但是因為這個行程上面的衝突喔 可是他來幾天總是會見到你啊我就所以問這個就是說他來不要只有說就叫我們通過什麼錢錢錢貨貨貨 我沒有交貨啊我就跟你舉例啊我們向美國採購976架彈簧刀300型的無人機"},{"start":12413.066,"end":12421.255,"text":"按照規劃114年要全數交貨去年底全數交貨現在已經是今年的第一季了總金額多少錢啊 總金額55億55億啊"},{"start":12429.266,"end":12432.448,"text":"55億到現在為止一價都沒有交你來跟人家說不要來只有push我們要給錢你要push到給貨啊跟委員報告你這裡講的那個台灣刀300是685價976價是含RTX600的M那個已經交了那個已經完成交運了那剩下來是台灣刀300的這個部分台灣刀300沒有交嘛"},{"start":12459.446,"end":12464.248,"text":"對 但LRT600的部分已經291架已經交完了好 那所以剩下600多架剩下300的685685架沒有交 什麼時候可以交完"},{"start":12476.694,"end":12492.319,"text":"在第二季第二季什麼時候啊第二季從四月開始到六月到底什麼時候目前我們持續的掌握確切就是第二季那我要跟委員報告他其實所謂沒有交貨他是因為我前面也跟召委報告過了"},{"start":12494.119,"end":12510.848,"text":"這些案子裡面他都會隨著迭代幫我們去做一個晶片跟相關軟體還有飛超模組的更新以符合這些避免遭受到戰場上的干擾對啦 這個不管什麼理由都是沒有交卷啦現在大家老百姓只在意這桿子就說來 今天要叫人來騎它的全案期程是到116年所以基本上目前都還是算在整個的計畫節點裡面你講的來 我看還有"},{"start":12523.214,"end":12536.659,"text":"海軍委託國內造船廠建造兩艘的輕型巡航艦的原型艦本來規劃115年要交捐現在呢 美國核A3已經告訴我們要delay了跟委員報告 這是我們國艦國造要delay了但主要就是因為那個主機的部分"},{"start":12550.559,"end":12563.293,"text":"主機有問題嘛因為我們國建國造都會碰到一些有關這個比如說像主機啊這些關鍵的設備這個計畫總共是多少錢啊您是說這個清洗房的園園建嗎"},{"start":12572.303,"end":12588.84,"text":"總共是245億245億喔 是什麼時候開始交貨不管跟美國買跟自己做都可以啦什麼時候可以交貨報告委員 這是因為主機延誤那其他的部分主機延誤什麼時候可以到貨主機延誤 那目前整個交件是在116年"},{"start":12590.922,"end":12596.326,"text":"主機是跟美國買的嘛對不對是的是嘛所以我講的沒錯啊還是會跟美國買的啊那就是這次美國參議員來但是說他可能對我們軍國問題啊這個會有些意見等等之類的但是我們我們要講一個東西說我都給你錢了你貨沒有給我啊一直delay delay剛才那個不管是"},{"start":12613.92,"end":12617.262,"text":"900多價 600多價 說是600多價也是沒有給貨然後這個也是主機沒有貨 還是一樣啊還是美國不給我們貨那個 部長 我剛一開始為什麼問你這個就是參議員還 你一定有機會跟他見面要不要跟他反映一下我們立法院的意見在這裡啊"},{"start":12633.393,"end":12648.477,"text":"跟委員報告 您剛剛講的那個台灣刀300跟ATIS600的這個部分剛剛已經說明了ATIS600它提前交易那台灣刀300還沒有過這個交易的節點然後它還要幫我們做迭代的更新 然後軟體的更新節點沒有過是沒有過 可是本來你規劃114年就要全數交貨啦"},{"start":12655.245,"end":12674.471,"text":"有沒有報告你這個要先說明一下本來就這樣寫這兩個案子事實上是預約時間就已經往後延他知會他知會國會之後給發價書跟預約的時間往後延那就產製的整個進度而言如果您去看一下那個時間他並沒有產製進度落後的狀況來部長"},{"start":12678.651,"end":12699.374,"text":"然後Artist 600他已經提前交了我也要報告一下相對的委員也不會希望我們接收已經過了那些迭代的舊的東西所以基本上這些我們在議約是非常嚴謹透過美軍來幫我們跟廠商做要求相關的迭代的更新"},{"start":12700.015,"end":12704.258,"text":"對啊 不管怎麼樣 我們就是發現到說你來這裡就一直要push要預算通過 可是呢你該倒過來跟參議員 你給他反應一下我就是部長 一開頭我就問你嘛你一定會跟參議員見面嘛 對不對 會吧"},{"start":12716.411,"end":12729.963,"text":"應該會我剛剛已經講了原規劃是要見面那後來因為這個一方面是立法院的行程一方面有後續的他們的訪問的時間的緊迫我想我們會由這個副部長來幫我來來"},{"start":12734.495,"end":12753.324,"text":"來進行相關行程的這個就是你沒辦法跟他們見面但是但是 副部長跟他們見面就這個意思 是不是呃 我國防部的部門是由副部長好 那就拜託你交代副部長跟他講一下我們的東西要趕快給我們啦要不然的話你在這裡很難撐下去啊對不對然後你 你今天又講了你說1.25兆欸 副部長按照你的意思是1.25兆一毛錢都不能刪喔"},{"start":12764.295,"end":12771.997,"text":"我們國安部的立場認為這個都是一向的都不能少我們看幾個喔 李文宗前退伍外的副主委他就講了把那個無人機的這一部分通通放到年度預算所以9000億左右今天盧秀燕市場講了9000億、8000億到一兆"},{"start":12790.15,"end":12805.585,"text":"盧市長好像說希望把無人機放進來好啦 這個可能不同的角度啦那我的看法就是三千八加N其實盧市長講的跟曾立文講的沒有什麼矛盾啦因為我們是三千八加N所以你要告訴拜託你告訴胡部長"},{"start":12811.699,"end":12836.814,"text":"請參議員轉告美國那裡 趕快出現NN不見得是發酵數N就是說 能不能美國政府正式都要announce要第二批對台灣這個軍售 140億美金他只要這個聲音出來 行政部門出來國會通過 發酵數晚一點沒有關係 我們都支持這時候 將8000例到1兆是OK的"},{"start":12839.508,"end":12850.056,"text":"是OK的這個老實講大家都有公約書為了這個國家好為了我們提升我們整體防衛能力其實這個部長不要一定要踩那麼緊啊"},{"start":12855.1,"end":12866.662,"text":"因為好不容易才有收斂收斂到八千億、九千億你要討厭啦不然不然這樣你給他動一動說唉唷這個不過我相信你嘴巴講啦心裡不是這樣想啦我在猜啦你心裡能夠通過九千億你就要討厭啦你就很高興才對啦就是說Morning Happy啦九千億一天澳造你嘴巴講講我會了解啦"},{"start":12881.136,"end":12885.599,"text":"我們還是希望能夠通過1.25兆好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟愷委員上台質詢好 主席謝謝 麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12917.392,"end":12943.11,"text":"好 部長好本席一向的立場就是支持我們中華民國不管是國軍 國防部但把錢花在刀口上又買到我們真的合用的武器 設備 系統 裝置這點大家應該是都一樣的想法但今天本席不禁看到有個媒體報導講是說我們的機場安全AI影像分析系統而且那媒體是用很大的很聳動的標題啊"},{"start":12944.431,"end":12960.599,"text":"大翻車然後又說我們花了四千四百萬變成是豪華的擺設我想先請教一下部長我想今天上午這樣子應該也都已經有初步做個了解了嘛第一到底這個系統是什麼時候驗收完畢我想請空軍來簡單回答"},{"start":12962.628,"end":12990.547,"text":"委員好 我是工進參謀長 跟委員報告這個原起還是跟委員報告一下我們在111年11月25號的時候E2K這架兩五動三號機這個媒體都已經寫了我們就是因為這樣所以說才要去編列4400萬來購AI系統那立法院也支持所以說去年的8月招標也絕標了所以我們大家都理解但我現在要確認的是說什麼時候驗收完畢在12月10號的時候去年12月10號驗收完畢去年12月10號驗收完畢"},{"start":12992.968,"end":13008.115,"text":"我看到媒體報導空軍一直強調跟回應就是已經驗收完畢了柯委員強調的不是驗收不驗收完畢這個事情那有沒有報導講的這些事情持續的提升悲哀這是空軍第一次運用這樣的一個系統導入"},{"start":13009.515,"end":13026.273,"text":"能夠提升飛安降低飛安的機率來減輕人力的負荷所以說我們在去年也是用創新的方式來請廠商設計因為以前從來沒有人這樣做過這個系統它是第一次結合攝影機跟一些大數據演算國外也沒有沒有"},{"start":13026.813,"end":13049.78,"text":"國外也沒有沒有那我們自己去想了一個系統然後我們自己去想設計一個方法我們是希望提升飛安提升飛安的這個我們跟美國那麼好美國他們的一些經驗沒有讓我們來做一個分享美國也沒有用AI這個國企真的差異很大他們在跑道上面就是機場裡面連飛撫室就是說在機場裡面監控的人都沒有這個"},{"start":13051.48,"end":13066.364,"text":"國情真的大不同我們在飛安的角度上來講是比較嚴謹的今天看到的是我們要為人民的納稅錢來把關所以說我們現在想要強調的跟確認的地方是到底有沒有如同報導這樣講的4400萬好像變成是豪華設備豪華裝備報告委員沒有驗收完畢之後有沒有再出包"},{"start":13071.936,"end":13097.094,"text":"驗收完畢還是有一些狀況還是有一些狀況比在驗收初期少了很多我們到目前為止什麼時候狀況現在狀況解除了沒因為報導裡面還有提到是有我們的群組賴群組的對話賴群組的對話是不是這樣的因為這個會造成今天的梅波事件是因為他在設計的初期因為他系統會警告說期貨架沒放所以人員就要趕快拿起來看"},{"start":13097.754,"end":13119.727,"text":"那因為他的判斷會因為天氣的不同下雨天陰霾天霧天他會判斷會有誤差所以說我們也是一直在教育這個系統讓他能夠收集更多的數據什麼長你這樣講的好像你是廠商的代表我們現在要要的是空軍弟兄的安全為第一優先順位嗎是你自己剛就一開始開宗明義就講說2021年因為跑出"},{"start":13122.429,"end":13144.556,"text":"跑道的一個事故而造成說我們想要精進這個本席完全理解也同意啊所以我們現在才講就是說現在這個系統有沒有把錢花在刀口上以及能不能實際運用那你剛剛本席問的他在12月10號這個報導你有看到嗎都已經通過在12月10號已經通過就是就已經通過還是持續出包這也是你剛剛講的嘛本席剛剛要問的地方是說這個群組裡面對話是不是真的"},{"start":13148.993,"end":13165.78,"text":"其實裡面有些粗暴是我們的人員不熟悉系統去按錯東西粗暴的我們的人員也有問題在裡面所以說我們不斷的教育系統也教育我們的操作人員參謀長 冷息怎麼越來越覺得你是在我好像在跟廠商代表講話"},{"start":13168.001,"end":13169.963,"text":"今天一個系統我們要用結果反而變成媒體報導講是說讓人眼辨識如果說我們這樣依照沒有這個系統引入的時候我們用肉眼辨識人眼辨識可能還不會出現這個問題"},{"start":13182.52,"end":13199.726,"text":"那今天這個系統來不是增加我們的安全反而變成是我們的人要double check要兩倍的時間是AI系統先判斷了之後然後之後我們人再判斷確認AI判斷有沒有問題那這樣子就變成是一個人做兩份工啦這個我們會再繼續的改善我們今天"},{"start":13202.869,"end":13228.45,"text":"參謀長我今天就是看到媒體報導我也不知道說為什麼媒體今天報導會再挑今天國防會教委員會有國防部來質詢的但是重點這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒啊那如果說裡面的群組的對話也都是真的我們也看到甚至報導直接就講是說我們有負責的中將還是負責的這個上校直接打電話嚴正的要求系統不能再出這樣的包"},{"start":13229.19,"end":13250.627,"text":"我們會持續的要求 其實這樣子我是肯定這樣的態度是因為我們付了錢我們就應該把錢花在刀口上就沒有想到不是那就你今天跟我一直在講你還講到反而是推給我們一直到二月單月都還是有持續請廠商來一直持續的在是嘛那現在所以說你也承認現在這個廠商設計這個系統到目前為止還沒有辦法百分之百可以運用的良好"},{"start":13251.428,"end":13270.663,"text":"所以我們原本是希望能夠取代人力我們原本是希望能夠精進安全結果現在變成是沒有辦法取代人力我們的人還要double check那你不覺得這樣子反而沒有把錢花在刀口上嗎我們會持續的檢討這個案子因為在整個大數據AI的過程中我們必須要持續的去教育這個系統"},{"start":13273.445,"end":13300.43,"text":"如果說可以出包連剛剛參謀長都已經承認了就出包完驗收完之後都還有持續有狀況那驗收他也是怎麼驗收的因為這個系統是第一次我們建置這個系統不管第一次第二次如果說他沒有辦法上限率合格率沒有辦法那麼大你就不應該讓他驗收啊那以前可以怎麼做以前都是用人眼辨識 肉眼辨識那你為什麼急著要在去年的時候來驗收"},{"start":13302.435,"end":13329.127,"text":"按照合約是12月2號驗收這不是按照合約你的合約是到今年的年底啊你的合約到今年年底如果說換言之你到今年年底以前驗收都可以但重點在於是我們花了錢怎麼會變成是買到這樣子的一個系統而現在嘉義還在做對不對也是同一個廠商同一個系統是不是嘉義的水上靶場是嘛水溪靶場"},{"start":13331.061,"end":13341.01,"text":"水上水溪靶場是靶場的AI這個是另外一個也是同一個廠商同一套系統同一套系統是那會不會有一樣的狀況我們會持續的檢討是來部長"},{"start":13348.371,"end":13363.251,"text":"本席講了那麼多其實我們都站在的是你要用我們支持你要錢給錢但花錢要買到好東西可以減輕我們官兵弟兄負擔跟提升我們官兵弟兄安全而不是變成說"},{"start":13364.517,"end":13378.699,"text":"好像我們自己我們變成是我們來幫廠商測試剛剛參謀講到這第一次那結果我們幫廠商測試我們拿我們的官兵弟兄當成是試驗品 實驗室等到我們測試良好之後他可以再賣給其他人是不是"},{"start":13381.442,"end":13393.37,"text":"所有的AI他都會有要有一個自主學習的一個過程所以我想我們給我們的廠商變成是自主學習的實驗場我們買的不就是要已經是可以上線的AI作為一個輔助的一個系統那麼他會不斷的進進我們當初的標案講的是我們要的是一個學習的系統還是是可以合格使用的系統"},{"start":13410.121,"end":13437.92,"text":"就這麼簡單我們的標案書到底是怎麼寫的你4400萬如果跟我講是說你們是什麼中研院中科院還在學習還在什麼研發那我不怪你啊但如果說你今天的標案書跟我們講是說你是要一個合格上線的系統那就不應該存在還有所謂的學習啊那個反應是在系統第一次跟第二次驗收不合格的時候我們的操作人員反應的那現在已經大幅的降低這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":13441.209,"end":13461.081,"text":"來啦 部長一次的意外都不應該發生我們現在還沒有意外真的是我們中華民國弟兄官兵福大命大那我是不是可以要求國防部這邊針對這一個部分給外交國防委員會跟本席一個檢討報告可以多久時間可以拿出來"},{"start":13463.103,"end":13478.949,"text":"看我們大概三個禮拜嗎 三個禮拜 本席等你三個禮拜我再一次強調 這個廠商我也不認識 這個報導我是今天看到但我覺得一個報導用一個很嚴厲的言辭大翻車 4400萬變豪華設備這對我們官兵弟兄也是一種羞辱"},{"start":13483.826,"end":13491.951,"text":"如果說不是事實也要予以駁斥但更重要的是我們把錢花在刀口上這才是我們共同應該要一起的態度以上 謝謝"},{"start":13500.241,"end":13511.971,"text":"創新小組推薦的廠商因為我們的國軍不能拿來當成試驗我們剛才提到了有些產品它並不是成熟的不是我們提供相關的試驗資訊"},{"start":13514.293,"end":13535.326,"text":"這樣的數據資料尤其是AI它是需要它成熟以後再來賣給我們我們買的產品應該是這個如果使用者都已經認為它會造成悲安的風險可能對他們來說生死一瞬間所以這個部分我們強烈要求一定要嚴格的去執行也謝謝部長要提供的那個檢討報告"},{"start":13537.407,"end":13565.24,"text":"那接下來請羅明財 羅明財委員不在請葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":13566.3,"end":13568.933,"text":"本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}