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蕭執行長台灣日本關係協會洪英傑 洪秘書長領事事務局鄭正勇 鄭局長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李志宏 李副秘書長經濟部政務次長江文若 江政次"},{"start":1880.76,"end":1899.376,"text":"財政部常務次長謝林源 謝長賜官務署趙台安 趙副署長農業部常務次長杜文珍 杜長賜國際事務司溫祖康 溫司長漁業署陳芬蘭 陳芬蘭主任秘書"},{"start":1907.91,"end":1910.812,"text":"農糧署張耿勳張專門委員本日會議邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告台馬ECA生效後之經貿效益分析及台土台博氣候防護合作成效並備質詢現在請林部長上台報告"},{"start":1941.755,"end":1957.442,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安感謝邀請外交部就台馬經濟合作協定生效後之經濟效益分析及台土台博氣候防護合作成效進行專題報告報告的書面資料請參閱以下進行重點的報告"},{"start":1964.537,"end":1981.196,"text":"那首先呢本次委員關切的重點主要是我國與太平洋友邦在經貿與氣候方面的合作那這確實是當前島國友邦高度關切的議題島國的永續發展人民生計以及經濟韌性的"},{"start":1983.118,"end":2003.742,"text":"等都是與區域的情勢連動那我國在太平洋的三個友邦 帛琉 馬紹爾群島及圖瓦魯也都面臨了這些內憂外患那殷切期盼透過與我在氣候行動及經濟共融方面深化合作以強化國家韌性 同時共同抵禦威權國家的擴張"},{"start":2006.483,"end":2016.736,"text":"那麼為因應友邦破戒的需求外交部在上年期推動龍邦計畫判輸出台灣優勢領域的智慧解決方案以台灣經驗來協助友國我們島國友邦強化經濟的體質"},{"start":2023.134,"end":2042.049,"text":"那麼在我國幫助太平洋友邦經貿合作大致可以分為以下的四個部分那第一是循序落實台馬經濟合作協定那外交部已經著手規劃在本年上半年由外交部經濟部國貿署等相關部會共同率團"},{"start":2043.63,"end":2063.662,"text":"包括企業界一起赴馬紹爾群島來訪問相信雙方面可以在漁業、食品加工、航運觀光、醫療及器材、私通訊科技、海水氮化等領域媒合潛在貿易商機其後續召開兩國經貿部長級會議確立實成第二是有關於深化、帛琉經濟韌性的合作"},{"start":2073.417,"end":2091.876,"text":"自從上任以來本人已經兩度率領龍幫經貿團赴帛琉考察兩國政府也在聯合政府大樓光電儲能建置電動巴士建置以及保利碼零碳船等重大合作案達致共識在積極的推動中"},{"start":2092.977,"end":2113.687,"text":"第三是延伸台土共融的合作框架我國與圖瓦魯國在上年11月簽署了團結共融條約確立制度性的框架本年今年3月擔任特使團赴圖瓦魯訪問期間也代表我國簽署了台土避免雙重課稅"},{"start":2115.97,"end":2137.316,"text":"及防渡逃稅協定為台商富土投資奠定良好的基礎第四是成立龍幫經貿辦事處來協助友邦的經濟發展之前所述具體的案例顯示我國與太平洋友邦的合作由單一計畫的推動逐步擴展到制度化經貿協作以及產業佈局的階段"},{"start":2140.177,"end":2155.585,"text":"因此外交部規劃設立農幫經貿辦事處以補足並強化整體對外經貿推動的能量期盼從一次性的援助轉型為永續性的產業合作達成故邦與農邦的政策目標"},{"start":2156.718,"end":2172.467,"text":"那麼我國在太平洋地區推動氣候變遷合作呢尤其是在以下三方面有進展首先是捷徑能源我國自2010年起積極推動捷徑能源的計畫宣示借我國國產的相關應用產品"},{"start":2175.228,"end":2200.626,"text":"那三個友邦均可見我國的太陽能發電或除年設施另外外交部去年曾派遣專家赴帛琉考察完成了全國電網系統轉型總體檢報告供帛琉政府來參考未來將引入我國電動巴士充電樁及零碳船等智慧科技使帛琉成為區域綠色大眾運輸的示範國家那麼"},{"start":2202.33,"end":2221.288,"text":"我們也有成立了氣候調適基金我國在2023年跟馬紹爾群島簽署了氣候變遷調適應變基金的備忘錄部分基金已用於興建馬國馬酒樓市環礁海牆保障人民居住的安全我國也在同年"},{"start":2221.989,"end":2243.597,"text":"在UNFCCC COP28期間宣布成立了台灣太平洋氣候轉型基金提供融資或補助去年在PIF太平洋島國論壇的峰會期間我國更透過友邦宣布將要注資參與太平洋韌性基金這些都是我國支持島國氣候韌性的具體作為"},{"start":2244.917,"end":2266.308,"text":"另外就是在海岸調適方面我國跟土瓦魯政府共同推動了台灣土瓦魯海岸調適計畫填海造陸的工程之後促成了美國澳洲日本跟我國在2024年8月在土國合辦GCTF的氣候治理工作坊凸顯區域協作"},{"start":2268.549,"end":2297.038,"text":"最後要特別重視是有關經濟韌性跟氣候變遷已經是全世界共同面對的課題我國承諾協助太平洋友邦建構國家韌性的決心不會改變未來將全力推動榮邦計畫適時展示榮邦的時機並與理念相近的國家合作來強化友邦的韌性以維護印太地區的和平穩定與安全以上敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2304.037,"end":2305.599,"text":"主席 我們請林部長請林部長"},{"start":2340.53,"end":2363.826,"text":"部長好我們南太平洋這三個島國人口數都非常少可不可以跟大家講一下這三個國家大概有多少人?這個帛琉是兩萬人馬紹爾群島大概接近五萬圖瓦魯國是一萬人他們人很少"},{"start":2366.147,"end":2380.985,"text":"剛剛報告裡頭也提到他們的經濟韌性他們因為氣候的變遷會導致他們國內的經濟可能有時候就不穩定他們因為氣候變遷的關係所以他們的海岸線"},{"start":2382.54,"end":2410.097,"text":"也經常面臨很多的挑戰包括海岸線的內鎖所以台灣也協助他們在處理這些相關的工程我看你們的報告裡頭連台灣世西都請出來了那台灣世西要去帛琉看他們有什麼需要協助的地方就是協助他們有關國土規劃跟這個任性城市的發展好那現在問題來了"},{"start":2411.516,"end":2429.933,"text":"我們協助這三個國家可是這三個國家人口非常的少這三個國家也沒有大學他們最多就是台灣稱的叫做武專那他們有大部分的比較畢業後想要念大學的也有學生在台灣"},{"start":2431.294,"end":2460.883,"text":"那我們協助他們做這些海岸工程土木工程氣候變遷部長你知道這三個國家到台灣念大學啊有沒有人在念這些東西當然是有啊有嗎有些學院是有包含這些課程我是建議這樣請這個跟教育部啊就針對這些國家因為我們去台灣市區去協助他們了規劃完了假設當地也做好了"},{"start":2462.366,"end":2477.84,"text":"他們後面不能吃嘛不能吃,不能吃的意思變成我們又要有人去那如果他在地啊他在地說他到台灣來讀書的這批學生他到台灣就念土木工程"},{"start":2478.723,"end":2494.285,"text":"阿套台灣就念氣油變遷就是說他們現在接下來10年20年面臨的困境他們到台灣來我們的教育部就媒合這些大學就讓他們的學生來台灣就讀這些科系"},{"start":2495.666,"end":2517.881,"text":"這樣他們回到他們自己的國家我們幫他們做完的東西他們才能接上去譬如說現在要到柏柳做電動公車幫柏柳做他們新的那一棟行政大樓現在看起來就是那棟新的行政大樓行政大樓上面有太陽能包括你們在馬薩河土豹要跟他們做儲能的這些設備"},{"start":2519.107,"end":2522.569,"text":"那些東西你把它做出來,假設它開機啦,還是我們幫它開啦,東西給它了,它要人啊,最少也要有公司,有一組人,有辦法餵養那些東西嘛"},{"start":2531.863,"end":2548.862,"text":"所以這一塊部長有什麼看法這個委員有所言甚是這個學訓用要一致所以我們的獎學金制度也在進行檢討跟修正也就是說他來台灣念什麼回去才能夠繁榮他的國家"},{"start":2549.343,"end":2573.574,"text":"不過他念了完之後人口外移啊這些國家以後都沒有人才雖然來台灣念獎學金回去很多也是做到部會首長以上不過剛剛講的就是說我們現在要跟他們政府有時候發展農幫計畫這些所需要的人才培育學訓用要一體啦所以我完全贊成這個委員的見解甚至我們現在也有一些短期的課程"},{"start":2574.875,"end":2591.988,"text":"那我們所謂的莫奈總統的青年百億圓夢計畫我們有邀請他們來做很多跟專業有關的比如說籠幫裡面的有關於新能源還有智慧農業以及永續觀光所以學訓用要一體這個是我非常認同委員講出了這樣的一個我們其實過去獎學金制度"},{"start":2599.053,"end":2624.968,"text":"就是來啊唸什麼很自由啊來了之後大部分都沒有回去這個就是很麻煩啦所以因為我看到你們連台灣四溪都請出來了那台灣四溪是很專業的公司所以他去幫他整個那些東西對台灣四溪來說那不是困難的事情那即使工程都做完了真的你幫他這海岸線做這一個防止這個海岸線退縮的這些港頂海岸工程做完了"},{"start":2626.048,"end":2651.591,"text":"過三年五年開始出現要維養的時候啊他們也搞不清楚啊因為他就沒有一組人啊可能有幾個有來台灣讀書或各國去讀書他可能懂啦可是他沒有一組人去處理整個國家的這些工程的時候啊面對氣候變遷他還是面臨困境他一面臨困境那些東西可能就壞了那壞了之後呢又"},{"start":2652.552,"end":2669.316,"text":"因為叫他的友邦去幫他倒三天那這個其實是划不來啦這一塊再請這個因為我們現在總和外交嘛部長再跟這個教育部看有沒有一些學校因為我看包括一個國家有跟這個原治大學"},{"start":2670.016,"end":2696.591,"text":"他們的課程裡頭有氣候變遷的那這個都是對這些國家是有幫助的啊不然我怕說電動公車啊你叫台灣的青雙上二十台去啊電動公車派去要收你啊你說台灣的公司又派人去啊那不是長遠之計啊那與其如此如果他們的高中畢業生到台灣來就在台灣的這個電動公車的工廠啊"},{"start":2699.048,"end":2718.209,"text":"做了兩三年,回去可能就裝甲了他回去,他要另外開一間公司,或是他們政府的公司他就在裡面,附近餵養這些東西我覺得這才是長遠之旅,也才會真正叫做榮邦啦我可以補充喔,巴拉圭跟我們台科大的合作,那在"},{"start":2719.35,"end":2738.235,"text":"台科大的這個在巴拉圭也有設立對等的學校就是採取委員剛剛講這個模式就是跟我們的它的科系跟產業的合作像電巴那在巴拉圭我們現在有輸出而且在地有我們的電巴公司啊有在那邊設廠那就需要很多這個維運的人才好"},{"start":2741.055,"end":2769.072,"text":"第二個啊,就這三個太平洋島國啊他們對海洋的保育啊,那是台灣對不對的我到這個帛琉去啊他們對這個生態的承載量啊,對觀光的承載量的要求啊一隻船出去載幾個人,配多少救生員每天都管制啊然後連用這一個防曬乳啊都只能用他們管制的防曬乳"},{"start":2769.972,"end":2787.013,"text":"台灣炸雞都不能買,那這種東西對他們來說很平常,對我們來說很稀奇你們連一天整個村子出去可以載多少人,你們都管制,因為他不想要大量的觀光客去辦"},{"start":2788.662,"end":2815.754,"text":"這個是他們的優勢那台灣台灣的這些大學有做海洋生態的這些大學的系所啊包括教授們包括研究生、碩士班、博士班也應該去這三個島國啊把他們做成啊就是說他們當成我們台灣這一批我們自己的人喔要培養海洋生態保育的這些人那裡是我們很好的基地啊"},{"start":2816.514,"end":2838.04,"text":"所以教育部也應該跟我們的海洋部各式各樣環境部、農業部大家整合起來說把這三個國家的海洋當成我們很重要的研究區域我們跟他們合作把研究成果給他們他們反而來協助我們做研究那這個對我們對台灣因為這三個國家看起來像綠島、蘭嶼、七美、望安"},{"start":2844.602,"end":2850.527,"text":"因為他們大部分就光光食品加工,農業,台北都是這些,因為東西連要賣來台灣也沒什麼好賣,我看你那個馬紹爾,每年賣到台灣的東西,補掉多少你還要記一下?"},{"start":2859.468,"end":2868.096,"text":"真的很少啦 因為他們產椰子啦 或者是這個茉莉果啦當然漁業是很大啦 不過漁業加工怎麼去加強剛剛委員講確實沒錯 這些海洋的島國 它的藍色的國土很大"},{"start":2874.682,"end":2892.216,"text":"所以對台灣來講是一個可以跟他合作之後去發展比如藍色經濟這個就是在永續發展之下怎麼樣去促進海洋國家的經濟因為有經濟才會帶動他未來的繁榮啊就業這個新的邏輯現在就是我們在推的榮邦計畫所以這個也請這個總和外交榮邦計畫的架構之下"},{"start":2897.957,"end":2916.036,"text":"請教育部啦 國科位 因為我們有一個海洋聯盟嘛就我們台灣的對 還有六所大學都有海洋的學院跟科系他們有一些有實驗船嘛 就到這些國家就是說這件事情 他們其實是在幫助台灣因為他們有很好的這個環境跟管理的制度所以這一塊啊 就是我們"},{"start":2918.621,"end":2948.021,"text":"用他們的東西啦所以這一塊希望我們這個國家告訴各位多給一些經費給這些海洋大學聯盟的這些學校系所的老師跟研究生啊能夠在譬如寒暑假或者是有半年的這種教育訓練的課程啊整座都給他刷去做這樣的一個研究其實對台灣是有幫助不只讓那個地方我們再融幫他他們也是我們很好的研究夥伴"},{"start":2948.701,"end":2967.034,"text":"完全認同委員的主張透過我們的邦交國可以走向世界其實我們以前很多人把它當作負擔其實不是它是甜蜜的我們透過跟它的合作可以變成跟它繁榮一起比如說我們很多海洋科學跟經濟的發展"},{"start":2969.315,"end":2991.485,"text":"我們可以通過那邊做一個類似一個樞紐然後往那個區比如說以帛琉來講它是第二島鏈那個地方的整個最關鍵的位置所以它的海洋國土其實是很大的那對我們人才因為台灣特殊的國際處境我們沒有辦法參加國際組織可是透過我們的友邦卻可以去跟國際合作甚至我們到它政府裡面"},{"start":2992.365,"end":3008.765,"text":"去就是說服務啊我們國會會有一些這樣的一個志工跟替代役我們未來也是在加強雙邊人才的交流所以柏油來講比如說明道中學就跟他們的中學啊已經建立姐妹學校然後他們也有社區大學他們其實很多的"},{"start":3009.406,"end":3030.53,"text":"大學是到美國去念 因為他們是COVA他們是美國的一個聯盟的一個協定的一個組織啦所以我們善用這些就是友邦12個邦交國可以讓台灣走向世界其實最好建議啦 你想我們這些國和會啊如果有一些研究計畫鼓勵台灣的研究團隊針對這三個太平洋島國"},{"start":3033.973,"end":3057.28,"text":"譬如說用永續海洋、經濟韌性、氣候變遷為題台灣的學生、研究生、教授們以這些為題在國際上把他們的名字包括伯留、馬薩爾、土瓦魯用這樣的一個研究名稱也協助這三個國家讓這一個國際上都知道這三個國家在做這些事情的時候他們做的是世界頂尖的所以就是說我們透過這個方式讓我們跟他們"},{"start":3062.882,"end":3086.695,"text":"是一個很好的夥伴關係就像剛剛部長講的是很甜蜜的這樣的一個關係那我想透過這樣的方式讓台灣的研究團隊也能夠一起融幫我最後再補充一下就是我們想台灣可以幫助後面還要再要一句我們的邦交博可以領導譬如說PLAO可以領導在什麼方面那Marshall Allen可以領導然後這個Towaru可以領導"},{"start":3087.896,"end":3101.743,"text":"所以他們會以跟台灣為邦交為榮因為他們不只是接受我們的援助而且我們跟他共同繁榮之後可以成為世界讓大家可以作為一個典範他們也會被關注啦對 被肯定好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝現在請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":3122.038,"end":3122.699,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長 請部長"},{"start":3134.69,"end":3151.809,"text":"今天我第一個題目我們再來關心一下洪都拉斯的局勢啦是2023年的時候當時的洪都拉斯總統秀美拉在3月份這個秀美拉卡斯楚決定要跟台灣斷交當時在洪都拉斯的國會呢有一個國會議員"},{"start":3153.19,"end":3167.322,"text":"叫做托馬斯·贊布拉諾他當時的發言認為說跟台灣斷交是錯誤的跟中國建交是百必而無一利當時這個贊布拉諾提出示警"},{"start":3171.584,"end":3195.209,"text":"在2023年3月的洪都拉斯國會呢占卜拉諾國會議員這位議員呢代表的是親美派跟親台派不斷地立足但他失敗因為當時的選票結構當時的洪都拉斯當時的洪都拉斯的秀美拉呢一心一意就往中國轉那這一位占卜拉諾呢到2026年我們看2026年"},{"start":3197.813,"end":3203.281,"text":"前幾天3月份的時候他現在已經是洪都拉斯的國會議長是"},{"start":3205.708,"end":3230.023,"text":"他表達的幾件事情因為他來自於洪都拉斯南部的選區他說光蝦類養殖業因為中國的騙局就損失一萬五千個就業機會不只這樣子中國大量廉價的產品進入到洪都拉斯讓洪都拉斯原來的中小企業中小商業整個破產他還秀出一些信說中小企業寫信給這個國會議長說"},{"start":3232.665,"end":3253.857,"text":"中國的謊言讓洪都拉斯的人民非常痛苦所以他講了一句話他支持跟中國斷交恢復對台邦交國會會請全力支持他現在是國會議長我要問的第一個問題就是我們外交部有沒有計劃邀請托馬斯·詹姆拉諾來台灣訪問"},{"start":3257.562,"end":3283.416,"text":"因為我們跟宏都拉雖然斷交那只有三年的時間但很多的人脈我們都還是維繫所以都有持續在互動中那當然現在因為他們的阿斯福拉總統的政見有講要跟台灣恢復邦交那國會議長也公開的主張那確實他多數的民意也是支持跟台灣發展外交關係所以這些邀訪呢"},{"start":3285.017,"end":3311.364,"text":"適當的這個方式我們都會來做我們對非邦交國的重要政要其實我們都有在邀請歐洲的啦 南泰的啦我們都有在邀請那這一位托馬斯·贊布拉諾呢坦白講他的態度很一貫2023年 甚至於2023年以前甚至於到現在擔任國會議長他的態度對台灣是非常的友善那現在又貴為紅國的最新的國會議長"},{"start":3313.044,"end":3334.142,"text":"那我國外問的問題很簡單就是我們有沒有正式邀請他有機會來台灣走走因為我們現狀有在做這些事情嘛對這一位托馬斯我們有沒有邀請我們都有跟他我們都有跟這些政要溝通的就是持續維持這樣的一個互動他最近會來嗎"},{"start":3336.193,"end":3363.695,"text":"因為這涉及到我想包括議長跟整個他們政府包括總統之間他們怎麼樣去能夠來進行因為在很久的將來他們快休會了委員的意見我有聽到所以這邀訪是一個好的動作那你剛有提到紅國的民意很高他們現在親中派的國會議員一席都沒有當選"},{"start":3364.778,"end":3373.048,"text":"全軍覆沒這個我覺得對台灣來講是一個很好的警醒一席都沒有親中派的國會議員一個都沒有"},{"start":3373.786,"end":3399.113,"text":"那第一大黨執政黨跟第二大黨其實都是親美親台派那民意是這樣的態度那新任的總統選前選後也表達認為跟台灣合作是正確的加上美國的台北法案把他們的外交工具特別在中南美洲是跟台灣的外交是綁在一起的那總統的態度很明確那加上國會議長"},{"start":3400.433,"end":3418.502,"text":"我們跟紅國目前官方的接觸到什麼程度都有管道可以溝通所以當然這個總統有他整個處理外交事務的一個方向跟節奏"},{"start":3420.781,"end":3438.614,"text":"當然議長包括他們副總統也都是很正面的表達那是跟台灣的外交的關係可是這裡面也涉及到我想中共可能的一些經濟脅迫或者是在對他們內政的操弄還有包括像華為這些長期已經"},{"start":3441.397,"end":3453.513,"text":"可以說深入到他社會的這些勢力那這個當然就是很複雜的情形包括他們商界雖然大多數人是主張跟台灣恢復邦交"},{"start":3454.537,"end":3476.01,"text":"可是也有一些可能有跟中國在做生意的他們的經濟有的是綁個人那國家受害個人未必受害這個我們可以理解某一些特殊狀況那我最後有關這個題目要問的是我們有沒有agenda我們有沒有什麼樣的進程在處理我們對外關係尤其紅國這個事情"},{"start":3476.93,"end":3504.084,"text":"紅國不是只有紅國 旁邊薩爾瓦多啦等等其實它是一個區域包含川普總統對中南美洲他現在所謂的唐羅主義他們有一些想法然後Rubio也針對洪都拉斯跟我們國家的關係也發表過樂見的談話我請教我們外交部 你可以不揭露細節但我要請問外交部 我們現在跟洪都拉斯的互動有沒有一個進程 有一個agenda在那邊在進行"},{"start":3504.844,"end":3527.709,"text":"我想自從在選舉到選後我們都有保持溝通跟他們的政府就是對現在的政府 先前是在野黨包括行政跟國會的部門我們都有很多的友人我們也有管道跟他們溝通你們有沒有一個進度"},{"start":3528.889,"end":3554.071,"text":"因為這個外交這種事情我們是開放的態度而對方因為他對方已經講得很明顯了事實上你委員提到其實美國現在川普政府的西半球政策也是鼓勵而且這不是單獨只有宏都拉斯包括周邊國家尤其是中美洲這個是一個區域性的整個外交政策的一個變化這個可能不只牽涉到拉美中南美洲"},{"start":3555.012,"end":3581.757,"text":"可能連南泰這個局勢都會有影響所以身為我們國家外交部長這一個我不會把它視為骨牌但它是一個國際氛圍的改變掌握得好我們國家會在這裡面外交上會有一些正向的發展所以我不逼問細節因為細節外交總是有很多我們不見得要掀鍋蓋但我希望我們外交部是有一個進程在推進當中那我們"},{"start":3582.717,"end":3599.518,"text":"拉美斯這些負責的同仁也辛苦因為這一塊永遠是最激烈的角力當中我第二個問題要請教的是中國很幼稚就是你跟他好我就不跟你好那個真的很像幼兒園就是中國去"},{"start":3600.925,"end":3624.406,"text":"制裁古屋奎斯他是日華肯的會長而且古屋奎斯跟台灣的友好不是近幾年是很長期了那如果再加上石屏參議員啊閻其茂他們之前的參謀總長或者是巴韓高市早苗或者已經不幸過世的安倍或者他的弟弟岸信夫中國對於"},{"start":3626.047,"end":3646.997,"text":"凡是跟台灣友好往來的人他想要用長臂管轄長臂管轄另外一個名詞叫什麼呢干涉他國內政他就直接去制裁啦 處理當然古巫歸世有表達說我根本我又不去中國這個制裁對他無效但他們有很多經濟很多假錯訊息個人侮辱的方式去處理這個事情"},{"start":3647.737,"end":3670.318,"text":"那用這種幼稚粗魯的方式介入他國內政介入我國跟其他國際友人正常的往來那你身為我們國家的發言人國家的外交部長那對這件事情你的看法還有我們有沒有更具體的做法去讓這些友人感受到我們台灣的溫暖"},{"start":3672.14,"end":3688.872,"text":"報告委員我們在外交部第一時間當然也有對外表示對中共的戰狼外交或針對個人這種跨境所謂的長臂管轄甚至干涉內政我們是表達抗議也跟國務規師議員方面我們也有表達對他的支持"},{"start":3701.661,"end":3725.674,"text":"那中共他的外交有時候為什麼很不理性在很多人看來包括他對Marco Rubio也是列為制裁對象他不是罵Rubio 他是制裁Rubio然後現在為了Rubio要陪川普去中國把那個Rubio的魯改一個中文字就好像是兩個人就是幼稚又粗魯的外交手法"},{"start":3726.935,"end":3744.231,"text":"確實剛才委員講到他其實對這些民主國家他比較難為所欲為但是對一些國家他是完全去介入人家國家的外交他干涉內政我是建議我們外交部我昨天有注意到你們對古屋歸斯的聲援對中國的欠責"},{"start":3746.27,"end":3765.502,"text":"試試看能不能把這些被中國莫名其妙制裁的國際友人來台灣辦個研討會 都接來啦你坐下都在這裡讓國際看到一個正常的國際往來台灣一個真實的存在台灣友好的跟這些國際友人的互動我們沒有傷害任何人欸"},{"start":3766.423,"end":3791.036,"text":"台灣沒有做錯任何事情我們買武器保護自己是因為有人威脅我們有盜匪在我們門口我們跟國際友人交往我們善盡地球村的義務台灣沒有做錯任何事情而我們國內的內部親中共的人士包含中國動輒把這些行動怎麼挑釁好像我們做錯事情一樣那個是根本是顛倒是非所以我建議外交部這邊的聲援更大一點"},{"start":3791.596,"end":3818.739,"text":"甚至透過活動的方式展現出台灣在國際真實存在善盡責任以及這些國際友人對我們的支持這個我是覺得可以多做一些啦那我最後只請教一個問題我看到南韓把對我們台灣入境卡的不當稱呼而且呢之前也不溝通那你給他的期限是3月31號昨天到期了昨天到期了那我看到你們有個聲明說因為"},{"start":3821.321,"end":3842.231,"text":"這個南韓要這個有一些調整因應作為所以我們相對因應的反制作為就先暫緩我請教是他們要做什麼調整就你了解就是有關於這個電子路徑卡他會調整調整他會調整隔天4月1號他什麼時候要調整"},{"start":3843.004,"end":3858.97,"text":"就是他們行政作業需要一點時間那他們也有對外的說明這是確認啦我跟我們交涉另外他們也有對外他們外交部也有對外我想媒體也有報導因為這個東西如果能夠一個交涉成功的話"},{"start":3860.596,"end":3877.546,"text":"維護我們的國格我覺得是一個蠻重要的很多人以為外交務實不要務虛其實對外交來講象徵跟實質是一樣重要Symbolic跟Substantial是一樣的重要的所以我從這裡引到另外一個問題是我們跟南非現在怎麼樣"},{"start":3879.014,"end":3905.736,"text":"我們在南非還是維持我們的管處嘛那雖然他有一些單方的行為我們也不予承認在約寶還是在Pulitoria在Pulitoria還在那裡然後原來我們的代表處然後他雖然要求我們簽紙然後改名甚至幫我們降格可是事實上我們在那邊還是維持我們原來的運作我們在南非的運作跟原來一樣"},{"start":3906.957,"end":3921.385,"text":"位置跟原來一樣然後現在就是把這個局勢和緩下來對因為他們也給我們一個版本說要交涉那當然這個我們就持續交涉中所以我們大概什麼時候可以把南韓又叫回韓國"},{"start":3924.62,"end":3944.419,"text":"那個是另外一個我們的所謂他調整好我覺得只要有善意的表達我們都是這個是基於我想互相平等跟尊重什麼時候這個稱呼大家可以恢復彼此正常我們也正在看這個調整這個月有沒有可能"},{"start":3946.151,"end":3946.891,"text":"接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3970.967,"end":3973.933,"text":"謝謝主席有請外交部林部長還有經濟部還有經濟部長賜"},{"start":3986.591,"end":4007.613,"text":"兩位早安 根據國貿署的資料顯示我國跟大多數ECA或是FCA的簽署國在這個協定生效之後雙邊的貿易總輪確實有呈現成長的趨勢像Marshall或是巴拉圭都是"},{"start":4009.254,"end":4014.679,"text":"這個貿易成長幅度呢分別達到74%跟436%那尤其是馬紹爾群島我們是在2025年1月15號才生效才生效可是2025年的貿易總額呢已經跟這一個"},{"start":4023.968,"end":4029.59,"text":"還沒有這個協定還沒有生效之前有高達74%的這個成長的這個幅度可是這個也不是必然的這個趨勢那我們也有看到就是說像史瓦帝尼還有貝里斯這兩個國家卻是在簽署這個ECA之後他這個貿易總額居然是呈現負成長的這個局勢所以我想請教一下我們經濟部"},{"start":4050.697,"end":4074.115,"text":"我們將嘗試這是一個怎麼樣的一個狀況為什麼會呈現負成長跟委員報告我們跟這些邦交國譬如說您剛提到史瓦丁尼跟貝里斯因為這邊引用的是2025年的貿易總額但是我們跟這些國家簽訂的這些FTA ECA已經有"},{"start":4075.281,"end":4092.249,"text":"生效日期已經有一段時間所以我們可能要去往前回溯往前回溯看一下這個實際的貿易總量但是呢因為這些國家最主要的他們大部分都是一些手工藝品或者農產品所以我們積極的幫助這些國家在台灣來拓銷他們產品簡單的來說"},{"start":4098.888,"end":4112.102,"text":"我們在台北跟高雄每年都會辦理這些食品展史瓦帝尼他的辣椒醬跟蜂蜜就是非常他們可以出口的項目所以我們也積極的幫他們來做相關的推廣 以上"},{"start":4115.839,"end":4127.026,"text":"OK 這個可能跟它的這個市場的這個結構也有很大的關係所以我們在數據上來看的話會覺得說不是要簽訂這些協定之後雙方的這個貿易才會有這個成長嗎可是我們在數據上面看到有一些反趨勢像斯瓦帝尼貝里斯像這個部分的話其實就是要去做出這個解釋所以會覺得說我們到底跟邦交國之間到底出了什麼問題"},{"start":4144.617,"end":4159.948,"text":"好那次長您先回座那再來我再來要請教的是我們外交部那根據我們我國的貿易統計呢那日本澳洲還有這個菲律賓呢"},{"start":4160.348,"end":4184.687,"text":"都是我們我國前十大或者是重要貿易的這個夥伴可是到現在為止呢我們都還沒有跟這些前十大或重要的這些夥伴呢簽署FTA或是ECA那相較之下呢跟我們簽署FTA或是ECA的對象多數都還沒有列入主要的貿易夥伴之列那今年年初的時候部長你有接見這個日本的參議員來訪他們來訪的時候你就期盼就是說日本能夠跟台灣早一點"},{"start":4190.451,"end":4207.832,"text":"洽簽這個FCA跟這個ECA那同時也希望日本來幫助台灣早日加入這個CPTPP那現在是台日關係最好的時候我是這麼覺得那在持續深化之下我想請問我們跟日本方面是否有實質的溝通"},{"start":4209.714,"end":4220.52,"text":"比如說部長您所提到的希望日本能夠跟台灣洽簽FTA跟這個ECA這部分我們到底有沒有實質上跟對方做溝通或是說我們有什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":4222.017,"end":4244.585,"text":"是 報告委員我們去年跟日本有簽訂數位貿易的協議那這個當然對促進後續的雙邊貿易會有幫助那我也提到因為台灣要爭取加入CPTPP那日本政府也是表達樂觀其成跟支持的態度那我們當然跟台日之間因為現在的經貿"},{"start":4247.566,"end":4257.031,"text":"這個關係越來越緊密我們跟美國簽訂21世紀貿易倡議協定跟英國也簽訂了EPA等等就是ET"},{"start":4261.424,"end":4279.361,"text":"所以我們也期待日本 我們有簽了非常多的備忘錄我們希望整合 能夠有一個比較大的突破那其實架構一個台日的類似自由貿易協定或是經濟合作協定這樣的一個機制"},{"start":4280.603,"end":4294.793,"text":"所以未來的話其實還是會朝向要來洽簽這個FCA跟ECA嘛其實說剛剛部長你前面所提到的這些其實就是前置的一些作業那未來的話可能會再做整合然後往這個簽署FCA跟ECA這個方向來邁進嘛對不對"},{"start":4295.834,"end":4313.27,"text":"就站在外交部的角度我們希望加強台日關係除了不管是安全的或者是說這個經澳的還有這個各方面的關係但是我們整體上當然包括其他的部會他們主政嘛包括經濟部等"},{"start":4314.352,"end":4328.085,"text":"也在進行很多堆積木的工作可是我們從外交的角度看是已經累積到一個相當的數量我們是可以比較更全面性的來加強台日經貿的交流跟整合"},{"start":4328.891,"end":4343.744,"text":"OK 那另外除了日本之外像去年八月份部長你有接受印度政治家報的這個就是The Statesman的專訪你有提到台灣跟印度同為全球民主社會不可或缺的夥伴"},{"start":4344.384,"end":4372.842,"text":"那雙方的合作是天作之合你有這麼提到那你也希望雙方能夠簽訂FTA所以我想請問部長在這個新南向這個政策的架構之下到底雙方有沒有洽談因為我們知道說部長您常常會說希望這跟這個就要談那我們也希望就是說其實有實質上的這個進展那跟印度這方面呢我們有做這方面的這個溝通或是做相關的規劃嗎"},{"start":4375.212,"end":4394.009,"text":"委員所提跟這些國家我是覺得除了一般經貿關係當然會促進雙方面的簽署一些相關的協定但是如果有比較戰略性的思考因為在全球的整個地緣政治跟供應鏈的重組這個怎麼樣去"},{"start":4398.052,"end":4413.946,"text":"去找朋友那台灣除了要去參加比較多邊的國際組織有時候也遇到一些困難可是雙邊的啦只要當地國發現我舉印度來講我們有一些電子業去投資可是它周邊的這些協力廠商去就很困難"},{"start":4414.867,"end":4440.065,"text":"那這個到底是先簽了一個比較屬於自由貿易的協定那這樣子當然會帶動來解決很多的問題可是也許有一些主政者他們會認為說等經貿關係累積到一個程度我們再來簽這個是雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題但是時間是很急迫的對每一個國家都面對到包括川普的這個新的關稅政策我們必須要就雙邊去加強經貿的"},{"start":4443.948,"end":4453.768,"text":"特別是不管是FTA、ECA或者是所謂的ETP這些都是我們應該要努力的方向"},{"start":4454.639,"end":4475.553,"text":"OK 那我當然說站在外交部的立場也希望跟這些國家 理念相同的國家能夠在締結合約的時候不管是在經貿或在外交方面我們都可以有進一步更緊密的這個合作像之前我有看到像菲律賓 菲律賓之前來訪的時候部長同時也是提到"},{"start":4476.013,"end":4496.088,"text":"那我們希望能夠透過這個台非經濟走廊計畫來對接美國跟日本還有菲律賓共同推動的這個旅送經濟走廊我們希望一起來打造這個非紅產業的這個共同來打造這個非紅產業鏈所以我們也都希望說我們把我們的想法理念提出來更是希望說它有這個實際上的這個進展"},{"start":4499.21,"end":4525.163,"text":"所以因為像過去的話我們也曾經跟澳洲說要簽署FTA可是到後來呢我們也沒有看到任何的這個推進那而且我們還有看到就是說其實台紐商會他們一直也都積極的希望就是說台灣台灣能夠跟澳洲來進行這個FTA的這個簽署或者是來推動這個甚至推動這個ECA可是我也知道說"},{"start":4525.983,"end":4550.486,"text":"台灣在國際的這個處境是非常的困難不是說我們想簽署就簽署尤其是澳洲我已經談了這麼久到現在我也沒有看到任何的這個進展所以部長英明前陣子也剛到澳洲去你也過境澳洲所以我在想這個部分我也不曉得在那一趟的旅程當中有沒有跟當地的政府官員有這方面的這個洽談"},{"start":4552.547,"end":4568.292,"text":"我們跟澳洲的關係是進展的很順利而且很快速那這裡面就涉及到說我舉個比例啦其實外交跟經貿是兩條腿走路啦一定要左腳向前走的話右腳"},{"start":4569.272,"end":4589.997,"text":"那比如說我們雙邊的這些貿易投資如果沒有像自由貿易協定或者是說經濟合作協定或是相關的這一些像避免雙重瞌睡啦促進投資的這些保障你就很難讓我們政府有這個角色可以去鼓勵跟保障我們企業在那邊的投資或者是貿易"},{"start":4590.797,"end":4606.691,"text":"所以我都是用這樣的方式跟對方溝通這是一方面內政會涉及到你市場准路可能的衝擊因為這都有社會可能的影響包括對一些比較敏感的產業像農業可是另外一方面這個當然因為台灣已經現在隨著我們跟各國"},{"start":4610.473,"end":4632.143,"text":"包括跟美國簽訂這些 其實我們台灣已經很符合其實是很開放透明的市場經濟所以已經更具備條件 我們台灣比較不怕開放人家的產品進來他可能有一些對內部的保護 這個難免 這個都是可以解決倒是外交上就是中共的經濟脅迫"},{"start":4633.804,"end":4659.967,"text":"會讓這些國家會有一點疑慮因為好像又跟台灣簽了這個任何的協定或協議就有好像外交的意涵那我們去說明就是說當然外交的效應是一回事最重要是還是我們很實質的來看兩邊的經貿關係比如說我們參加CPTPP我們也做過研究那對每個國家都有貢獻包括對澳大利亞可是呢他們知道這對雙方面都有好的可是"},{"start":4660.968,"end":4677.083,"text":"會面對到壓力這個也是台灣特殊的處境那我們也必須要在這方面去找出可能的這個路來跟他們加強經貿的整合經貿的整合越緊密對台灣的安全就越有保障"},{"start":4677.643,"end":4690.842,"text":"那我們跟台美的關係也是如此我想這個台灣是一個很特殊外交的處境所以我們必須透過我們的經濟跟一些國家的整合來提升我們國家安全"},{"start":4692.202,"end":4711.817,"text":"OK好謝謝部長那五國說實在的我們作為高度依賴對外貿易的這個經濟體那對外貿易的協定的這個佈局他是攸關產業的競爭還有這個整個這個長期的這個發展所以那外交部跟相關的單位一起一起努力吧OK好以上謝謝好謝謝韋恩謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":4729.599,"end":4733.801,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請家榮部長請林部長部長早委員早部長我們台灣多年來在國際社會的處境除了外交部持續推動各項的榮邦計畫那我們也應該善用自身的優勢積極地來拓展我們與各國之間更深層的一個合作關係那我們透過"},{"start":4756.748,"end":4779.786,"text":"這個跨領域的交流還有資源整合不只建立連結更實際協助我們這些邦交國還有理念相近的國家的相關的一些發展那也不但讓彼此之間的關係更加穩固也進一步深化台灣在當地實質的一個影響力那台灣從這個1950年開始我們就做了許多援外的工作包括早期的這個農集團還有農耕隊那從這個"},{"start":4785.371,"end":4814.871,"text":"在這個現在的全球各地我們在醫療還有教育通訊還有這個環境等各項領域進行援助先前我們看到這個報導表示我們國會正在推動台灣模式2.0要參照其他國家的這個開發援助機構的做法將我們駐外的這些技術團把它轉型為辦公室讓我們跟夥伴國家的交流不限於技術更能夠涵蓋到"},{"start":4815.951,"end":4833.217,"text":"這個政策倡議的部分那我想請教部長就是有關我們在海外的這些技術團要轉型成所謂的這個辦公室的這個量能相關的規劃為何那我們要從哪裡開始做會不會需要派出更多的人來做這個工作的因應"},{"start":4834.533,"end":4857.029,"text":"報告委員,台灣為了外交要找出路,從以前的農耕隊到技術團其實現在已經形成一個台灣模式,這就要有助於當地國的能力建構那相對於中國一帶一路啊,如蝗蟲過境啊然後就控制人家的這些國家的基礎設施,然後造成他破產然後傾銷,然後整個人民都失業"},{"start":4858.05,"end":4872.347,"text":"現在全世界都在比較台灣模式對中國模式所以我們必須把這個模式把它發揚光大那過去我們是援助的方式我們現在也加上投資所以國會的角色必須要以跟他共榮"},{"start":4873.708,"end":4895.702,"text":"包括合資 比如說有一些國家的能源 電廠它是基礎設施 如果這個國家沒有足夠的電來發展它不可能有工業化那這些國家都想從傳統農業社會工業化那他們對台灣就很有興趣台灣過去從輕工業 像紡織跟食品加工到現在的所謂高科技產業"},{"start":4896.902,"end":4924.968,"text":"從電子業 資通訊 半導體到AI所以我們台灣有這個所謂的榮邦計畫有八個旗艦就對應他們國家發展的需要那這裡面很重要的就是三個部分人才 科技跟資金所以我們有很多獎學金我們對他們的人才的培育甚至他們設大學像在巴拉圭跟我們的台科大變成姐妹學校這個是長久之計然後科技現在的很多的這個所謂要創新的治理不需要走原來舊的路"},{"start":4926.548,"end":4951.085,"text":"他們是可以有趕超就catch up那這個也是台灣可以跟他結合所以一些國家你像他們看到台灣其實看到都不是傳統說我們跟他這個這個造一條橋或者是蓋一條馬路而是需要台灣的know-how第三個很重要就是資金那現在因為全世界其實面對中共的一帶一路的這種輸出每日歐的國家都有說像"},{"start":4953.101,"end":4981.021,"text":"有像歐銀、亞銀像日本它的國際開發的公司我們必須跟它合作挑選有利於台灣去投資的項目這也是我們現在新的模式至於你剛剛提到有沒有遇到什麼困難我們遇到一個很大的困難就是說我們的國會以前有相當多的替代役這個兵役現在從四個月又改回一年了"},{"start":4981.863,"end":5005.755,"text":"所以這個來源會不見了所以我們也在包括總統跟行政院報告之後也得到他們的支持未來也期待立法院的支持能夠讓台灣的優秀人才透過他級服役的時間也可以到國外去為國爭光這裡面的這些相關的領域也不要受限於過去比較狹隘的領域我們希望八大籠幫計畫"},{"start":5007.376,"end":5022.139,"text":"旗艦的計畫都能夠得到相關的人才,也讓台灣的年輕人可以早一點去接觸外交,走向世界我們人力會需要再增加嗎?除了替代役的部分,有沒有可能公務人員要再增加?"},{"start":5023.013,"end":5050.192,"text":"我們外管基於我們現在整個總和外交的需要包括跟各部會需要的緣額我舉個例子以前各部會派駐外管都需要借用我們外交部的緣額這會有排擠所以我們也跟主計總處主計長協調我們是不是可以整體的來規劃因為我們有111個外管我們也不希望都是有些都是兩人管三人管我們希望說整合來發揮更大的能量"},{"start":5051.032,"end":5070.644,"text":"當然有一些新的發展像在中東歐或像在美國像鳳凰城因為亞利桑那因為台積電其實都在因應整個國際情勢的改變我們也需要有整個新的編制緣和跟預算的支持也期待大院能夠來支持部長我們這個"},{"start":5072.305,"end":5088.779,"text":"土瓦魯的部分您在這個月也剛從土瓦魯訪問回來在去年11月土瓦魯的總理也來台灣訪問過雙方也簽訂了包含台土團結共融的條約還有台土多樣化的漁業合作協定"},{"start":5089.399,"end":5106.937,"text":"還有這個台土運動交流合作意向書等條約期盼能夠在未來有進一步交流的合作關係那是不是請部長說明一下我們和土瓦魯之間所簽訂的這三項條約目前實踐的這個程度到哪裡那能夠為雙邊的關係帶來什麼樣的一個幫助"},{"start":5109.48,"end":5130.503,"text":"是,我們感謝土塔魯總理戴培莉,他希望跟台灣其實利用地盟的方式把台灣的跟他的邦交關係變成一個條約,他們國內不管是誰執政那這個方向我們也覺得很認同,所以會一起來成立所謂的台獨的龍邦基金"},{"start":5131.204,"end":5150.81,"text":"那台灣不要小看的土瓦魯他雖然一萬人他是一個在面臨氣候變遷其實海平線的上升那全世界都在幫他台灣的模式讓全世界感覺到跟我們合作最好比如說海岸的調適計畫他們必須要去填海造陸可是台灣做的物美價廉"},{"start":5152.13,"end":5176.696,"text":"而且他們就是 其實他們島跟島之間可能一直到漲潮就會淹水那我們做的部分都是很就是對準這些問題另外像這個所謂這個中太平洋的海嵐的延伸這一段我們是負責維運所以後來後續我們就可以持續跟這個國家透過這樣子一個電信5G的應用讓它可以在這個太平洋島國裡面變成一個"},{"start":5178.797,"end":5206.172,"text":"就是說是一個模範那這個也是我們新的榮邦計畫的方式其他幾個相關的條約當然很重要是漁業如果沒有這些漁業的收入他的經濟他的財政就會有問題所以我們也透過各種漁船包括一些所謂的他們捕魚日這些漁權的轉換另外就是透過我們的漁船的入籍或怎麼樣幫他們未來的產品可以銷到這個一些像美歐的市場"},{"start":5207.112,"end":5221.637,"text":"這個也就是根本解決他經濟發展上面現在遇到的一些困難那我也期待他這樣一個過程之後我們不是只有援助而是讓他慢慢能夠以台灣模式發展出他在地的特色那成為他未來"},{"start":5222.737,"end":5249.231,"text":"不只是說維持我們的邦交他在全世界都可以幫台灣去發聲像帛琉的貝尼亞總統啦巴拉圭的這個帛琉的惠蘇人總統巴拉圭的貝尼亞總統他們在國際上面對台灣的講話都是發自內心即使我們不在現場他們依然都引以為榮這個也就是我們榮邦計畫台灣已經發展到一個新的境界跟階段我們的外交也必須跟著調整就推動這個總和外交"},{"start":5250.339,"end":5270.752,"text":"那部長另外針對這個我們非洲的友邦史瓦帝尼的部分那延續上一次何部長您提到這個相關的基礎建設還有經貿合作的規劃之外另外對於我們這個產業招商的部分在使國除了要設立這個台灣產業創業園區之外我們也看到外交部先前已經籌組了這個"},{"start":5273.214,"end":5298.794,"text":"產業團和台商團赴死國來參訪那也預計在今年下半年度要擴大參與史瓦帝尼國際商展來協助企業開拓死國的市場那我想請教部長榮邦經貿辦事處的這個推動會透過什麼樣的經費來支應那服務的對象不限於我們12個友邦國家外外交部會鼓勵企業怎麼投入這個響應這個政策好"},{"start":5300.919,"end":5321.093,"text":"報告委員我們是參考以前就是我們講的所謂中美洲經貿辦事處因為是有個中美洲基金那我們跟很多的邦交國共同組成的可是現在在中美洲我們只剩下兩個國家的邦交國那當然採購啦或是說促進投資啦這些都是可是很重要的除了G2G的關係我們也建立B2B的關係"},{"start":5322.194,"end":5343.025,"text":"所以這一次我們參考就是中美洲經貿辦事處我們成立了榮邦經貿辦事處把非中美洲跟其他的國家都可以整合進來那這個時候我們鼓勵B2B有時候台灣的這個企業尤其是一些具有很好品牌的企業他們可以幫助這些國家不只去採購甚至食品加工甚至可以輸出到第三國"},{"start":5344.065,"end":5370.958,"text":"那讓他們變成有一個產業那這樣的方式我會鼓勵他們去成立一個共處一家公司來配合我們國家的政策所以我們目前在預算上並沒有新增是由我們自己我們部內透過國經司委由國和會來成立這個龍芳經貿辦事處那我們也去溝通鼓勵民間合組公司未來我想在兩邊的經貿關係上就可以真正"},{"start":5371.778,"end":5395.704,"text":"打通認度二脈比如說我舉個例子啦以這個石瓦地理來講它有這個叫做馬路拉這種所謂橡樹果的油那是非常高級而且在世界上它的品質很好可是它可能都掉了滿地那怎麼樣去跟它契作能夠收成然後讓它的這個人民有工作做然後這個透過我們的幫它認證透過檢測透過食安透過有機那這樣子輸出之後它的價值就會比較高"},{"start":5401.385,"end":5430.925,"text":"所以我覺得現在的榮邦計畫讓這些國家看到未來的希望那我們也鼓勵台灣的企業跟政府一起走向我們的透過邦交國走向世界最後一個問題我想請教部長就是3月中旬我們也接到使國的邀請他的國王恩史瓦第3世58歲的壽臣他邀請我們賴總統能夠去參訪我想這個部分我們現在安排的整個期程到哪裡"},{"start":5431.625,"end":5445.095,"text":"包括我們是有收到他的邀請函那我們外交部當然作為一個幕僚單位我們都是會做評估跟規劃跟相關的準備因為這是一個很重要的此國的慶典也有是一個國際場合"},{"start":5448.137,"end":5465.546,"text":"但是最後的評估決定的結果當然還是要有待總統府還有包括國安部門各部會整體的做評估之後在適當的時候做決定再由總統府來對外做說明好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":5482.814,"end":5510.171,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們林部長請林部長部長,針對這一次的WTO第十四屆的部長會議部長級的一個會議剛結束很遺憾我國被迫拒絕出席"},{"start":5511.089,"end":5540.384,"text":"那當然這是我們自從2001年加入WTO之後首次沒有出席WTO部長級會議原因是受中共的影響主辦國柯麥隆對我國極度的不尊重矮化我國的地位外交部為了維護國家的尊嚴主動記者出席會議本席認同外交部維護中華民國國家的尊嚴的決定"},{"start":5541.104,"end":5554.802,"text":"那但是再請問沒有出席WTO部長級的會議對我國有什麼樣的不利的影響或者損失你來說明一下好不好報告委員對這一次在柯耐農舉辦的部長級會議我們"},{"start":5559.16,"end":5579.195,"text":"這個交涉的結果啦雖然我們沒有參與但是我們也都積極掌握會議的進行那最主要是他矮化我們之外因為不能形成先例那我們交涉還有包括各國包括這個WTO的這個秘書處啊都覺得我們的主張是有道理所以最後這個柯麥隆政府是有調整"},{"start":5579.955,"end":5595.158,"text":"不過他在調整裡面又有一些錯誤那已經來不及再更正比如說他給我們要能夠免簽入境已經不是用原來的這個所謂的這個台灣然後 Province of China可是名字也寫錯然後性別也錯"},{"start":5596.419,"end":5619.236,"text":"那這個時候時間已經壓縮到很接近大會那我們是有做好各種應變的方案啦不過最後綜合考量並沒有就是來得及有辦法在他更改之後去出席這個也有新聞稿加以說明也就是說我們爭取所有參加的機會但是因為這些錯誤我們如果沒有再要求他更正"},{"start":5620.017,"end":5645.368,"text":"那就會變成慣例所以這個也是在外交上有時候某種形式跟實質關係的都是互相影響但是對我們這次權益就這次柯麥隆所主辦的會議我們並沒有因此受到直接的影響我們也因此開始交涉以後要主辦這種所謂的M部長級會議的國家在申辦的時候就必須對台灣承諾"},{"start":5646.528,"end":5672.045,"text":"不能有任何矮化對我們差別待遇我們就是在WTO裡面我們就是台澎金馬關稅領域那一般也用台灣這樣的方式在稱呼尤其是涉及入境他卻以為說因為涉及到這個入境是他單方的國家的主權那事實上這個大家當然要了解嘛因為這個是有政治力的介入所以我們從2001年加入WTO"},{"start":5673.326,"end":5698.534,"text":"這一次是首次拒絕出席但是我們要維護中華民國的尊嚴我們也要強勢的來表達對WTO的一個會議的出席的一個尊嚴所以部長你也特別要表明我們的一個強勢的立場而且非常要受到尊重他要遵守相關的規定所以從這一次的事件看來"},{"start":5699.594,"end":5726.806,"text":"本席也看到我國外交工作的兩難實際上以中共的期望就是要減少我國的一個國際的參與如果從結論來看部長會不會覺得我國主動拒絕出席會議之後正符合了中共的一個心意是不是報告委員這當然是綜合評估如果是可以出席我們真的一切的辦法我們還是要出席"},{"start":5727.779,"end":5745.479,"text":"可是因為他有錯誤,這個錯誤他又來不及更正的時候我們必須在捍衛我們國家的地位的情形之下抗議,抗議完當然持續交涉,事實上他們也承認有一些失誤"},{"start":5746.56,"end":5760.501,"text":"所以這個就不太會成為以後的一個範例反而是未來要主辦的國家在申請的時候都必須跟我們或跟這個秘書處表示很清楚他必須平等對待台灣"},{"start":5762.223,"end":5777.818,"text":"至於在榮邦計畫即將要成立榮邦經貿辦事處並籌授榮邦經貿公司這是不是代表了我國將以投資外交期待於援外的外交看了這個報告,榮邦經貿辦事處是參考中美洲的經貿辦事處但是本席發現風險部分"},{"start":5784.764,"end":5810.049,"text":"龍邦經貿的辦事處比中美洲經貿辦事處高出非常的多那成立這個龍邦經貿辦事處的風險是什麼但是本席認為有絕對風險為什麼我們現在像是一個投資的平台是一個政府支持的投資網路如果透明度不夠"},{"start":5810.729,"end":5831.463,"text":"很容易被質疑是否特定企業因此得到政府的資源是否形成政府背書替特定企業開發海外的市場有將來以後可能會發生如何防治如何控管我想部長你來說明一下"},{"start":5832.143,"end":5859.894,"text":"包括委員 雖然是叫做農幫經貿辦事處他是參考中美洲經貿辦事處可是他並沒有這個一個基金我們現在就是行政上的協助那希望說透過我們政府鼓勵企業他們多去做跟我們友邦的經貿這個關係包括投資貿易那我們台灣有很多的這個這方面的know-how可是他們我們的邦交國台灣會覺得有點"},{"start":5861.254,"end":5875.259,"text":"為什麼我們都不去投資他的或者是為什麼我們都不買他的東西呢雖然我們政府 我們如果自己政府去做我們很難去持續啦還是要企業有商業模式所以剛剛委員擔心的這個倒是不用擔心因為我們中美洲經貿辦事處很有經驗他也會來協助龍幫經貿辦事處雖然他是個任務編組"},{"start":5880.741,"end":5909.721,"text":"它並不是去成立新的一筆基金但是我們讓企業想要去幫忙我們榮邦的時候它有一個行政上的我舉例來講我們的邦交國我們都有大使館我們可以收集所有可以做貿易的項目然後它的產量它的季節它的品質等等我是認為提供這些資訊的服務然後讓我們的企業比較容易願意去那邊可能採購啦可能去加工啦可能去就是說做各種的投資"},{"start":5910.541,"end":5935.303,"text":"那這個是應該想說也是我們現在在做總和外交一個所謂公私協力公部門跟私部門合作的一個我覺得是應該是在全世界包括現在川普政府他也是在做所謂的commercial diplomacy那不要講說日本歐洲國家他們長期其實都透過投資在帶動貿易以及帶動整個雙邊或各方的外交關係"},{"start":5936.488,"end":5960.708,"text":"所以今天我們提到這個就是一個責任的歸屬一定要劃清清楚就行政服務啦 協助啦對 投資遭遇到項目的失敗邦交國這個邦交國政治異動甚至斷交之後投資歸屬及是否再繼續所以外交部對於這些問題的責任釐清是否明確那第三是榮邦計畫"},{"start":5962.71,"end":5979.659,"text":"辦事處設立的根本是我國近年來邦交國流失速度極快政府想用投資綁定邦交但是還是免不了外交競價的一個風險可能被迫提供邦交國不符合我國利益的一個產業投資會不會將來以後會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":5983.001,"end":5998.121,"text":"包括我也應該不會我舉例以前我們去我們在榮邦計畫不只是經貿啦又是投資那我們在開發過去的工業區其實就遇到開發完之後我們無法招商因為其實企業需要什麼我們需要為他們服務就像台灣的政府"},{"start":5999.002,"end":6023.803,"text":"我們的這個單一窗口啦 我們這個同步平行作業就像科學園區或各個產業園區就台灣的這個經驗 尤其是行政上面的這個我們的這些經驗是很寶貴 這是無價的那他們國家要發展 他們也期待台灣把我們台灣經驗能夠輸出給他所以我們其實除了在促進所謂雙方面的所謂的這個經貿的這個外交以外其實我們也在幫他做制度建構"},{"start":6024.764,"end":6039.052,"text":"跟能力建構其實這個就是在幫助他怎麼進入世界市場他們有很好的東西但是他們的附加價值不高那這時候我們透過台灣市場的需求來幫助他比如說他們生產的像在這個馬紹爾群島他有這個茉莉果"},{"start":6042.054,"end":6066.316,"text":"他是一個很對這個提高免疫能力可是他們就不知道怎麼去加工那我們如果能夠跟他契作啊又契收那我們又讓他這個加工之後可以價格可以提升然後他就建立品牌之後因為他跟美國又有特殊的COVA這種協約的關係就可能可以銷到美國他有很多好東西但他不知道怎麼去把它變成一個好的商品"},{"start":6067.329,"end":6095.131,"text":"好 最後 榮邦經貿辦事處形塑出的一個外交模式那也很符合部長的一個雙軌外交的理念那當政府外交透過榮邦經貿這個體系的結合企業聯盟外交本身很擔心政府的外交政策最後會被企業投資利益的會不會被利益綁架以上 那請說明"},{"start":6096.581,"end":6108.197,"text":"因為我們是請企業幫忙我們外交啦其實他們投資在其他的領域或做生意他們都是很多創業楷模都是經濟部認定的那些創業楷模都是中小企業為主"},{"start":6113.283,"end":6130.673,"text":"這些都是台灣打造經濟部落國非常好的這個可以說可以參加我們所謂的聯合艦隊啦所以我倒是說台灣的 我們政府的資源有限那怎麼去讓民間 尤其是企業能夠促進跟我們邦交國的各方面的交流合作"},{"start":6131.893,"end":6151.889,"text":"這個不會有什麼負面或是說太大的負擔注意上述的風險當然也要設置好一個防火牆以免傷及到我們外交部的形象既然我們有心要做一個經貿的邦交來帶著企業過去引領 引導"},{"start":6154.131,"end":6173.75,"text":"引導他們這個所謂投資的一個環境當然是一個好事但是我們也不要被企業反過來綁架了我們外交的一些事務好不好好 我跟委員說明一下我舉例來講比如說像創凱總會啦還有這個工商協經會台北市金出口"},{"start":6176.532,"end":6194.676,"text":"這個工會他們就是在幫我們做榮邦經貿推動的最主要的參與者他們很多都是領導的企業他們平常的社會形象都非常的好我們會注意委員提到的在新藝的時候怎麼也做到防弊好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":6214.805,"end":6215.812,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請林部長"},{"start":6223.8,"end":6252.639,"text":"部長好根據我們今天的題目我特別的去關心了一下就是有關於這個太平洋島國論壇今年將會是由我們的這個邦交國來做主辦但是我特別去做了一個這樣的整理就是中國對於台灣的國際空間參與的這個所謂介入是非常深的很希望的就是讓台灣被消失但是當然我們知道部長跟我們外交同仁都非常的努力"},{"start":6254.14,"end":6259.923,"text":"以這個即將在今年舉辦的這個所謂的太平洋島國論壇我們張越剛好是我們的邦交國所以當然我們也積極的投入現在的話整個騎乘出來了嗎"},{"start":6266.79,"end":6284.102,"text":"出來了在八月底九月初的一週所以八月底九月初距離剛好我們年底的地方大選選舉非常的近其實如果來看一下的話以我們的這個曾經的邦交國索羅門他也是去年上一屆的主辦國但是可以看得出來中國對於像索羅門這樣的一個"},{"start":6287.825,"end":6292.668,"text":"前邦交國過去一開始是先用所謂的金錢外交讓他跟台灣斷交然後呢在2020年的總統大選的時候他企圖就要透過索羅門來介入我們中國中國介入我們台灣的選舉然後去年我想這個情況部長應該也非常清楚就是透過索羅門阻擋我們台灣參與雖然說這一個論壇台灣在1992年開始其實我們就一直都有參與但是他還是介入了"},{"start":6315.239,"end":6341.739,"text":"那麼去年我在質詢的時候也特別提到美國的智庫特別提醒在我們的邦交國就帛琉透過這個有關於帛琉的部分它甚至於也用金錢的方式介入了帛琉裡面的所謂精英的部分所以我們現在一個邦交國的狀況我想要請問一下部長對於現在我們在執行所謂太平洋論壇中國的動作我們是不是有所防範"},{"start":6344.343,"end":6354.297,"text":"對 因為去年在索門群島是中共把一些國家的外交部長找去中國開會然後後來就是索門群島呢"},{"start":6357.158,"end":6378.02,"text":"這個阻止台灣參加那中國在那邊有大使館他可能可以參加所以我們積極交涉的時候包括美日澳等國就有一些夥伴發展的這個所謂的他們的夥伴國家也同樣表達意見所以也沒讓中國得逞這個是一個例子那因為當然今年由帛琉來主辦的時候"},{"start":6378.52,"end":6407.569,"text":"我們就跟他合作把我們榮邦計畫的成果展現而且不只是台灣在帛琉做的是全太平洋國家裡面鄉親國家在那邊做的甚至也不是在帛琉做的包括在馬紹爾群島在這個圖瓦魯就變成我們一個會展我想也歡迎委員到時候可以有直航飛機可以到帛琉去參加這一次的PIV甚至有一些我們國會議員也可以倡議我想很多的場邊會議跟活動也是非常的精彩"},{"start":6408.129,"end":6428.435,"text":"沒有問題其實我們身為國防外交委員喔那麼邦交國有這樣辦一個大活動我相信不論朝野立委都會一起來出席喔那麼也增加國際交流的經驗但是就像您剛剛提到的這個榮邦計畫喔這個PEF在即但是我們知道很多總預算是卡關的其實今天在您的報告上面也提到了喔就是有一些計畫"},{"start":6429.235,"end":6454.067,"text":"是屬於新興的包括我們要協助邦交國的部分那麼像這樣的預算卡關的狀況底下您說今年8月會舉辦嘛對不對那麼包括PEF的舉辦我們在協助的部分包括我們要提供我們邦交國在永續觀光啦智慧永續島等等這個部分喔那麼會不會受到因為總預算的卡關而受到影響尤其是如果8月舉辦現在已經是4月1號"},{"start":6457.128,"end":6485.827,"text":"第一季已經過完了那麼在這個部分會不會在經費上面使用上去這個也算新興計畫恐怕無法延續前一年2025年的預算喔那部長該怎麼辦我們總不能你邀請我們聽結果我們到現場發現該來的計畫都沒來是會有影響但是當然我們也是先救我們操之在己因為我們有一些對這些國家的比較常態性的這些就是援助或者是說"},{"start":6487.51,"end":6488.854,"text":"相關的預算不過"},{"start":6490.182,"end":6517.619,"text":"我們當然期待大院能夠盡快的通過那因為外交部在今年的預算增加是比較多是因為榮邦計畫所以這個項目就像委員講的有68.43億那這直接就是說我們希望說把這個榮邦計畫做得更好那我們當然也期待如果能夠赴委總預算之後呢我們外交部的預算也經過這個外交國防委員會能夠就新增項目能夠這個"},{"start":6519.884,"end":6539,"text":"能夠予以支持 尤其是我知道就是如果真的這個PEF在這個8月要舉行那麼當然很多的前期的作業是必須要透過來做協助的不然我們人去 包括我們朝委的委員如果要去 包括我知道這個召委也要帶著我們去做考察的時候這樣人們問起來 我們起來很難回答 對不對"},{"start":6543.194,"end":6559.204,"text":"是我也拜託韓院長也拜託召委這個兩位召委我都有說明他們也都表達其實是對外交預算是都是跨黨派的支持好那沒有問題另外一個當然我提到我今天會鎖定在中國的部分就包括"},{"start":6560.124,"end":6571.328,"text":"我想這個中國的長臂管轄不只是對於台灣的國會議員現在連日本的國會議員也不放過但是我先要問一個時事題就是我們也知道政協會確定會在4月7號開始舉辦尤其大概一個禮拜吧"},{"start":6579.471,"end":6599.363,"text":"這個對於國際當中所傳達的訊息會是什麼呢我相信這個問題對於國際上面大家都在看包括現在我們的軍購特別條例都還在審查當中尤其是放了一個親民廉價回來之後4月7號剛好會是"},{"start":6601.785,"end":6614.557,"text":"我們的國防特別條例正在院內可能會進行朝野協商甚至於可能在院會當中進行處理而國民黨到現在的態度都還是面對這個國防特別條例是"},{"start":6618.2,"end":6637.208,"text":"部分同意部分不同意的狀況底下那麼當政協會舉辦的時候他會不會對國際傳達錯誤的訊息而外交部在這裡是不是也有積極的對我們的其他的邦交國或國際友人來做必要的溝通跟說明"},{"start":6638.782,"end":6659.559,"text":"包括委員 當然就是就順序上因為有所謂政席會之後才有川席會這當然可能都會有一些互相的影響那對台灣來講我們當然就國防特別預算如果能夠儘早通過比較不會被操作啦這個操作也就是說 那習近平可以講說你看我跟台灣的一些政黨也可以談啊"},{"start":6660.68,"end":6678.172,"text":"那這個對台灣跟美國其實我們的軍購或他們的軍售其實過去台灣關係法或是所謂六項保證就是都有很清楚的規定我們當然希望避免這一些干擾所以如果國防特區算可以儘早通過那就不會被操弄不然有可能"},{"start":6679.013,"end":6705.062,"text":"不一定有心但是可能會有那個後果啦這個是也是我們外交部我們在很密切的關注所謂的川習會的時候啊這個之前的變數怎麼樣能夠避免發生去影響讓習近平可以操弄用這個來就是介入未來可能美台關係裡面包括軍售他說那以後就透過北京來談你們對台灣有沒有要軍售或什麼這個就是會使得我們外交"},{"start":6706.142,"end":6721.647,"text":"因為中國的因素而變成一個風險好本席其實要建議會特別提出來這個部分就是其實現在包括等一下韓院長也要接見外賓那麼我認為在現在以台灣"},{"start":6722.487,"end":6725.208,"text":"有這麼樣多的外賓造訪的同時我們除了在國內進行宣傳之外我也要提醒外館在這個時候這個關鍵時刻我相信國際的友人其實都在看著不論是實質的邦交國或者是我們非常友好的這些同盟國家"},{"start":6741.313,"end":6769.685,"text":"自由民主陣線的國家在這個時候是所有外交同仁第一線要面臨更多做說明跟解釋包括部長您剛剛特別點到的就是如果說今天這樣的一場會面導致於國際社會有錯誤的印象認為說好像談軍購或者是談台灣的未來甚至於談台灣的經貿透過北京習近平這一條線會有所謂的代理人他會下指導旗或者是在幕後"},{"start":6770.645,"end":6793.076,"text":"給予他所謂決定要或不要那麼這樣的一個錯誤的訊息的釋放對台灣就會相對的不利那麼就會像我剛剛從前面講到的帛琉在這個所謂的國際的太平洋的黨國論壇當中有機會上下其手又或者是用其他的方式來壓縮台灣的外交空間是"},{"start":6797.625,"end":6823.595,"text":"因為國際的大國之間當然都會就是說有很多的高峰會或什麼那我們包括這一次所謂的美日高峰會我想大家也看到包括川普總統他的事實清單以及日本方面他們也都有反應對於台海這個的關心那也是反對單方的這個不管武力或脅迫來解決爭議所以"},{"start":6825.896,"end":6845.026,"text":"我們怎麼樣讓台灣的外交是呈現是團結的這個能夠對外不然的話這個確實是使我們在交涉的時候人家會問那你們到底對特別預算的態度那是不是這個就是當然我做一個外交部長內政的部分我說很多"},{"start":6845.486,"end":6845.506,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6876.974,"end":6879.697,"text":"接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢那個麥克風請林部長"},{"start":6900.285,"end":6927.797,"text":"部長早 剛我聽到前面也有委員提到WTO的這個事情就是前一陣子3.26因為已經過了就是部長級的會議其實這個戈外龍這邊有一些矮化我們的狀況他把我們變成Providence of Taiwan所以看起來後來我們這邊的決定就是不出席了那部長這邊覺得這個不出席會不會影響到一些我們這個有關一些經貿上面談判的一些權益"},{"start":6929,"end":6950.848,"text":"就這次議題我們的書面資料都還是有到場是這並沒有影響可是我們不能形成一個先例所以我們除了抗議然後去交涉然後他們也後來也做了一些這個想要補救可是不完整好像不OK嘛因為名字錯了然後性別也不對好像很就是有點誇張這樣子對"},{"start":6952.188,"end":6980.753,"text":"但是我們就是說前事不忘後事之事我們對於後續要申請第15次部長級會議的國家我們就有好像接下來是沙烏地阿拉伯對 他們也要爭取出戰就是說是不是可以因為有這一次的剛剛隊長說有這一次的借鏡是不是可以針對下一次就是在沙烏地阿拉伯舉辦的時候能夠有一些事前的一些準備或是得到他們一些承諾"},{"start":6982.694,"end":7008.453,"text":"對 我們要求就是他們必須要對台灣有所承諾然後也要讓這個WTO的秘書處也需要廣為周知其實台灣在過去除了WTO之外在APEC比較常發生可是自從秘魯那一次我們據理力爭那也得到各國的支持之後其實就建立了有相當長時間中國是透過所謂的兩會把它就是變成"},{"start":7010.374,"end":7030.644,"text":"兩岸關係來處理我們後來又回到APEC的管道到韓國的時候在慶周舉行的時候就已經比較恢復了我們也希望說今年在深圳主辦的時候都能夠依照相關的規範這些都有一些不管是重要的"},{"start":7032.745,"end":7058.863,"text":"主持章程 或者是決議來進行因為這個好像也蠻突然的本期就是提醒外部這邊在下一屆的時候要特別注意這個事情因為它裡面有一個主題就是有關於我們電子傳輸的稅的部分跟貨幣我想這個部分因為這個可能跟經濟部跟財務部這邊很多有點關係不曉得大家有沒有針對這個部分有一些具體的好像是沒有討論還是說就我們這邊的部分 是不是有請我們請經濟部來說明"},{"start":7066.886,"end":7083.571,"text":"有關於這次電子傳輸它要佔豁免關稅的延長部分大家都沒有達到共識所以第一個我們會密切的關注它後續的發展因為支持這樣子豁免的國家是非常的多"},{"start":7084.687,"end":7099.183,"text":"第一個要支持就是觀察後續的發展第二個呢就是我們因為大部分的我們的重要的貿易夥伴其實是支持這樣的延長所以我們會去看說未來呢"},{"start":7100.184,"end":7116.254,"text":"這些重要貿易夥伴對這個議題是不是會形成一個另外一個多邊的一個協議這個也需要密切觀察那因為我們在日內瓦有代表團所以我們利用我們在日內瓦代表團跟其他的這些代表團的"},{"start":7118.116,"end":7132.535,"text":"會持續的參與相關的討論因為影響可能蠻大的所以我也是提醒這件事情可能要密切的持續注意好 感謝那接下來就是部長就是我們這邊的那個"},{"start":7133.877,"end":7156.682,"text":"辦公室有接到一些電話主要就針對那個越南辦事處的部分因為我們現在就是做南鄉政策我想越南是我們很重要的一個國家而且我們現在這個移工的部分其實在這個越南的部分他們做一個輸出國其實數量蠻多的那我們這邊有接到就是好像越南辦事處常常這個打電話好像找不到人越南駐台"},{"start":7159.935,"end":7178.294,"text":"臺北的越南辦事處臺北的越南辦事處就是常常會找不到人或打電話沒有人接我們去查一些過去的資料好像過去也有人有這樣的反應不知道部長知道這個狀況還是有做一些了解我請亞太司看有沒有掌握這個狀況"},{"start":7180.389,"end":7203.685,"text":"報告委員過去確實有曾經有這樣子反應那我們也一而再再而三在一些相當的場合裡面向他們越南駐台代表轉達但是因為他們本身那個業務量跟人員的調配方面事實上他們可能在這個辦公時間回應的速度有點慢但是我們也會持續請他們在繼續在這邊做改進謝謝"},{"start":7204.705,"end":7228.547,"text":"對 因為我真的是看到很多過去其實好像我們查到2011年開始就有人這樣反映不過看起來截至目前為止還是有人跟我們的辦公室做這樣子的一個反映我想我們南向政策越南這個地方其實對我們來說滿重要而且我們的移工很多而且真的他們要恰功辦理一些文件的這個部分其實是滿頻繁的我不知道就是說"},{"start":7229.387,"end":7255.798,"text":"我想那邊當然是越南那邊他們的一個主政的狀況不曉得因應這個部分就如果他們真的有一些人他沒有辦法取得即時性的一些聯絡不知道這邊有沒有什麼提供協助的部分當然因為這涉及到他們住管在這裡我們可以跟他協調怎麼樣來改善或他需要我們什麼協助因為確實台越之間的這個不管是就是說"},{"start":7258.218,"end":7280.504,"text":"這涉及到的包括移民、勞工、經貿、觀光、社企、婚姻等等業務真的很多我想外交就是雙方的一個關係我們還是有看到這樣的狀況還是請外交部是不是能夠在這個地方多琢磨一下我們多加了解之後看怎麼樣去協助它改善"},{"start":7281.741,"end":7294.739,"text":"那剛剛下一個題目就是有關於這個剛剛其實前面很多的委員有提到因為這個委員這個前面關心的就是所謂的這個榮邦的這個經貿辦的這個部分"},{"start":7297.222,"end":7315.979,"text":"那因為部長上任以後啊其實就一直在宣示我們不要警戒外交我們大概都是用這個所謂的總和外交的方式啦或者榮邦的方式啦透過政府這個剛剛部長說的G2G或者是B2B啦就是透過民間的方式來這個增加我們的這個跟我們的"},{"start":7317.06,"end":7338.049,"text":"不只是邦交國啦,或是非邦交國之間的一些關係啦所以我們就去查了一下相關的一些這個預算的一些編列啦不過我們看起來齁,這個預算的部分啦好,下一頁就是我們看一下有一些這個預算齁就是在我們那個"},{"start":7340.054,"end":7365.677,"text":"另外一個部分,這個部分大概都在第二項目的部分我們看到這個,大家可以看到我們的螢幕上其實這兩項寫起來差不多不過好像這個增加了大概50億左右那我這個基礎是用編列的預算並不是立法院後來審議後的預算就增加了大概50億另外就是這一部分,也是一樣的部分包含這個第二項,他們有包含的部分好像多了大概19億左右"},{"start":7366.678,"end":7388.052,"text":"那我在猜是不是這個就是有關於跟榮邦計畫有關實質上推動所增加的預算不曉得這個部長是不是對他意思在這個部分針對榮邦計畫有八個旗艦那總共預算有68億大概這個部分我們有完整的預算的說明"},{"start":7389.392,"end":7411.016,"text":"至於說這個寫的方式啦因為這個還不是到個別預算的那個項目那我們會提供詳細的資料給委員來參考是是是 那當然我們希望這個人幫計畫希望有些實質上的一些作用所以我們也想知道說這些錢是分配在哪一個部分再請這個部長這邊再給我們一些進一步的這個說明好 謝謝"},{"start":7415.057,"end":7441.088,"text":"那另外就是我們那個有一個這個台歐的這個獎學金的部分就這個部分這個部分也是好像要把它做一些整併也是多了非常非常多的錢那過去其實這個已經有在做就是我們這個有沒有斯化伐克捷克的部分不曉得過去針對這個經費的挹注好像跟那個什麼半導體什麼都有關係不曉得這個有沒有在做一些追蹤過去的成效怎麼樣那這些拿到獎學金的人現在的狀況如何"},{"start":7442.819,"end":7469.59,"text":"是 我們波蘭透過國會跟工研院去培訓人才因為它要進入半導體這個供應鏈必須先有人才所以我們有個中東歐亞所謂供應鏈韌性的計畫我們也增加了波蘭因為波蘭是4000萬人口之前是捷克 斯洛伐克跟立陶宛我們也擴增到波羅的海的三國所以確實在規模跟項目上我們是有擴張都有增加"},{"start":7470.27,"end":7488.381,"text":"那現在就是說效果來講以捷克我們是政府跟他們政府簽署的幾個大的一個合作案進展都很好我也親自到捷克看過所以這個預算應該是反映尤其是人才的方面是我們也辦過"},{"start":7490.267,"end":7515.264,"text":"結業典禮我也主持過確實那個反應是很好因為台灣就是在人才的這個方面是可以說他們要進入半導體必備的一個條件所以我想台灣這個當然這個晶片或者半導體這邊非常的強所以我也想知道一下包含這個過去的一些成效也許可以再跟委員提供資料好 我們一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7520.546,"end":7525.008,"text":"謝謝接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席我們有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":7549.537,"end":7577.25,"text":"你好部長對於前行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表顏惠信 殷斌其實我們都感到非常的惋惜因為這樣的談判人才是非常的稀缺但從後續看到這些訊息是了解到他因為遭到長官的排擠然後職場霸凌導致他心生恥意本席其實向來都反對職場霸凌但我相信部長應該跟本席也一樣"},{"start":7578.09,"end":7599.072,"text":"那反對職場霸凌是會影響辦公室文化很重要的一件事情我們過去媒體有報導說我國駐美代表這個於大雷他有被遭到發文指控說他涉嫌職場霸凌過去因為這個職場因為這個菜色問題辱罵這個督導主管把主管降到副主管"},{"start":7599.753,"end":7618.116,"text":"那對於媒體這些指控我們昨天行政院的主院長也說要請外交部來主動來瞭解那請問部長目前我們瞭解大概查到什麼狀況我們人事處有在進行瞭解那余大使本身也有傳訊跟我做了初步的說明"},{"start":7618.937,"end":7636.508,"text":"因為這次其實因為涉及到的一些網路或媒體的報導我們並沒有說正式收到這個申訴但不是因為沒有收到申訴我們就不去處理我們會主動去關心 去了解所以就是有在進行中"},{"start":7637.68,"end":7655.228,"text":"部長 因為這個駐外大使代表的是我國的在駐外的這個門面那一切行為他都會被高規格來看待所以請部長能不能好好的來查一下如果確實沒有這件事也要讓他還他一個清白那會後也請部長把這個初步調查的結果提供給本席這個辦公室"},{"start":7655.748,"end":7683.604,"text":"好 我跟委員也說明一下我比較直接有掌握啦因為有一些我們外館人事的調整還是都有一規定那至於說每一個館長或我們的大使或代表他用人他竟然有一個程序那也不能個人的好惡所以這個部分外面有一些紫色的部分我有就是請人事單位在家了解因為有時候當然在每個人的領導風格還有方法上"},{"start":7684.284,"end":7713.195,"text":"一定是不能夠具有職場的霸凌我們有相關的法令我們也希望說大家能夠透過這些管道來申訴如果具體的事證也可以提供給我們好 謝謝部長那我們回到今天的主題今天早有特別安排這個我國三個太平洋三個友邦的專案報告就是關於這三個友邦目前都面臨氣候變遷然後導致海平面上升然後侵蝕大規模這個土地然後"},{"start":7713.855,"end":7728.747,"text":"國家面臨消失的這些問題那我們既然是這個三個國家友邦我們當然就來協助我們友邦來解決困難那不過本席這邊也要強調就是說協助不是傻逼那個如果靠傻逼才能夠拱惡外交這個情誼不會長久"},{"start":7730.709,"end":7753.281,"text":"以下本席有幾個問題想要來跟部長這邊來就教第一個就是從經濟部國貿署的資料我們可以發現我國對馬紹爾出口在2022年的時候是四億三千八百五十七萬一路下滑到2024年達到最低只有一億三千三百八十九萬美金馬紹爾出口會急速下降的原因是什麼"},{"start":7754.661,"end":7778.279,"text":"因為我想這麼短的時間它下降一定有原因農業部的報告也指出說馬紹爾的遠洋漁業有發展的潛力請問我國目前在馬紹爾的遠洋投資有什麼未來有哪些新的項目在進行這個對於我國未來在海洋產業發展上有什麼樣的幫助第一個 請部長回應"},{"start":7780.74,"end":7805.206,"text":"對 陳議員所講其實馬紹爾最主要還是以漁業的收入那這裡面當然有一些是漁船那過去我們有企業有跟他合作那也有幾艘漁船但有一些漁船是產權是登記在馬紹爾群島不過隨著漁船的可能老舊或者是要換新而有新的他們的"},{"start":7807.966,"end":7831.575,"text":"這個合作的模式所以這個部分我們也是密切關注因為這是民間的一個投資我們是希望多大能夠維持那再來一個就是有關於這個漁權就是捕魚的這個日的這個交易的問題那我們過去是這方面比較多不過隨著那個漁的這個說氣候變遷它那個漁場的改變也影響到"},{"start":7836.349,"end":7863.471,"text":"這些國家的收入那最後我想最重要的是說能不能在這裡發展漁業加工他的碼頭還有相關的這些不管是產業或是服務業這個也是我們這一次如果我們有安排這個投資考察團希望能夠著重這也是美國希望說幫助馬薩爾群島以舉例來講我們必須要讓他找到他可以有"},{"start":7864.631,"end":7891.98,"text":"穩定或是這些財政收入的產業也創造人民工作機會這樣我們的邦交也才比較能夠鞏固這長久了 當然就是因為是共榮嘛它好我們也要好嘛所以這個也要對我們國內的產業特別是在漁業這一塊台灣是一個四面黃海的海洋國家我們要為海外發展的時候哪些這個是未來對於我們的這些產業是有實質幫助這是更重要的這個是人民會支持我們外交的"},{"start":7892.66,"end":7921.382,"text":"那另外就是說在查了這個三個國家的這個貿易檔案裡面發現三個國家跟這三個邦交國家裡面他從中國進口的物品的比例都非常高尤其是馬紹爾跟這個帛琉主要他都是佔他們國內進口的第一個那未來有沒有可能中國會利用這樣的方式經貿協約要求要斷交那對於這一些我們有什麼因的方式那有沒有還有沒有什麼樣的措施能夠提高他對我們的進口"},{"start":7923.403,"end":7947.75,"text":"委員只講到一個很重點因為這些我們的邦交國當然他中國比較沒有辦法大張旗鼓的去承攬工程雖然有時候透過國際的這些銀行這個算是援助的項目那也是開放這個招標這個對我們是一個我們多密切注意跟因但是另外一個就是所謂的這一些進口品"},{"start":7948.57,"end":7971.01,"text":"它形成了一個商店甚至他們的人就在這邊買賣這個其實就會進入它社會的末梢這裡面會不會有其他的一些任務比如說我們在帛琉的時候我想在2024帛琉總統選舉的時候其實後來公布了很多的調查其實這個確實是我們應該要去妥善因應"},{"start":7971.69,"end":7989.973,"text":"所以馬紹爾群島來講 比如說他這個碼頭然後有漁船進來就會有漁工他生活上各方面的需求那我們希望說我們未來在物流上面我們為什麼要去推動榮邦經澳辦事處來促成民間對他們的比如說進口"},{"start":7991.139,"end":8013.675,"text":"台灣有非常好的貨品可以進口這裡因為我們又有這個所謂ECA等等那再來就是要培訓他們的人才也就是他們要有辦法跟這一些通路啊能夠來做生意那如果他在台灣學習的時候我們就能夠引導他進入到相關的這一些產業那他一技之長之後回去就可以代理啊"},{"start":8014.995,"end":8040.777,"text":"即使是一個超商他也要進貨這個時候的物流呢那如果台灣這次我們希望透過民間的投資以外也促進他的這個所謂的貿易的進出口這個可能會某種程度會解決到他剛剛委員提到的就是他的貨都來自於中國然後在這邊買賣的人都是中國在那邊長期的滲透影響或利益輸送就是"},{"start":8041.457,"end":8067.333,"text":"有時候一下子看不到但是它長期就會你這個末梢就會出問題都是要再提醒要注意的事情因為其實經濟部裡面的報告提出是三個台北市三個邦交國它的特色就是人口少然後它的產業其實相對都不發達那特別像我剛才看了資料這三個國家加起來人口數還沒有我們台東市多我們台東市還有80萬這三個國家還有不到10萬"},{"start":8068.464,"end":8097.443,"text":"那在這個特別我們要提到還在報告裡面要提到說這個土瓦魯的這個他更提到說他的工商交通貿易都極度不發達市場規模也小短期內亦難大幅改善不利的條件必須仰賴我國的政員才得以生存那我想要請問外交部跟經濟部說你針對土瓦魯的這個產業困境我們要怎麼協助他產業升級然後另外除了援助以後我們有沒有什麼我們榮邦計畫的實行有沒有什麼具體的措施"},{"start":8099.905,"end":8126.727,"text":"報告委員除了基礎設施包括像電信或者是說這些道路以外他的民生需求就是需要進出口貿易這個大概我們有在協助未來包括他獎學金的人才然後包括他能夠產學合作然後到我們的企業比如說我們的這些很大的這些超商然後也可以建立他這邊的人脈那另外一個很重要的是漁業"},{"start":8127.948,"end":8147.371,"text":"就是怎麼樣讓他捕魚之後也可以增加收入除了漁權的交易以外那個漁船他們也是有分到一定的配額我們台灣就像我想在台東 屏東這些其實我們有相當多的漁業其實可以用他們的Quota"},{"start":8147.951,"end":8175.523,"text":"這樣也可以讓我們台灣的漁業有更大的發展當作是一個另外一個遠洋的基地這樣對 那個食品加工可以做像在馬紹爾群島可能有這個簡歷北濟的話我們也有台商在那邊投資不論我們這幾年一直在推動的務實外交我覺得務實外交就是要讓彼此之間的連結性更高要互助互利就是你好我也要好這個感情才要長久只有靠感情 只有靠金錢 只有感情 那不孤單"},{"start":8176.323,"end":8203.738,"text":"我覺得這跟真正的問題一樣 保證你有沒有認同對啊 感情或價值這些都是很重要啦但是麵包啊 要讓它能夠有經濟的發展就業機會也是非常重要部長 再利用點時間 最後提到就是說我們提到這個三個國家這三個 太平洋三個邦交國它都是屬於南島語系部長 你知道南島文化 它是屬於南島語系嘛南島文化的發源地在哪邊 你知道嗎"},{"start":8204.618,"end":8228.646,"text":"現在學界大概已經幾乎是來自於台灣特別是台東那這個部分也要跟部長講說過去我們為了要推動南島文化的交流我們在1999年的時候台東縣政府就舉辦了南島文化節邀請世界各地的南島文化的國家來到台灣來展演那後來因素就停辦不過這幾年我們還是有辦一些相關的活動"},{"start":8229.446,"end":8247.398,"text":"那像這幾年像那個園民會也辦一個叫Pasivali的這個國際音樂祭那也吸引很多的國外的音樂人才來這邊來展演那也吸引很多台灣的觀光客甚至國外的觀光客來台東那這些東西我想台東縣政府其實除了做這些以外還有辦很多的這些"},{"start":8248.619,"end":8266.557,"text":"公益的展覽的活動像我們一個叫原住民文化產業創業聚落我們透過文化透過公益的活動讓更多人來認識南島文化認識台東那部長你都說要用文化來走向世界文化就是最好的媒介嘛那我想台東也用文化來證明"},{"start":8267.578,"end":8281.885,"text":"我們台東是屬於南島文化中心的這個決心那未來是不是也建議我們外交部也好或可以結合園民會來讓預祝更多這樣子在國際曝光的機會讓更多人認識南島文化認識台灣也認識台東"},{"start":8284.026,"end":8303.98,"text":"我還前同意委員的這個主張我們的總和外交有原住民外交跟文化外交事實上在太平洋的島國包括像加拿大跟澳洲他們其實有對於原住民的經濟社會權利就是像我們跟澳洲紐西蘭也有三邊的會議其實在這方面就是可以透過原住民文化"},{"start":8304.64,"end":8317.109,"text":"其實跟經濟社會發展把它連結它不只可以促進觀光可能在產業上所以這個確實是太平洋我們有時候看起來好像就幾個島國然後沒有多少人可是這些島國的海域啊"},{"start":8318.447,"end":8343.425,"text":"他的藍色國土是很大的這個就是我們原住民當時可能不負周然後就沿著這個洋流這樣的一個學術上的研究基本上也已經都證實了所以這是台灣很特別作為南島文化之源我們一定要來怎麼樣去促進原住民尤其是文化上面的交流合作我相信台中縣政府非常樂意的跟外交部跟"},{"start":8344.562,"end":8361.964,"text":"相關的單位來合作那未來我們一起來努力這邊也請不會就今天本席提到的一些問題那跟本席辦公室這邊來做報告好我們再補充資料提供給委員謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝黃建斌委員的發言部長您喝口水"},{"start":8372.436,"end":8389.487,"text":"下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢我們請台灣日本關係協會秘書長跟農業部次長"},{"start":8401.752,"end":8410,"text":"不好意思台灣日本關係協會秘書長洪英傑跟常務次長農業部次長等一下再請部長謝謝還有農業部次長好謝謝次長那先次長好了不好意思"},{"start":8425.329,"end":8437.51,"text":"市長最近我們看到很多農業上面的災損是因為沒有雨沒有水那導致有很多的農作物都需要這個急需現金救助或者是這個災害救助等等"},{"start":8438.103,"end":8460.845,"text":"那在我們嘉義族旗它是有高階梨就是台灣的梨樹種但是他們現在有遇到一個小問題就是說這些梨樹他們通常都會跟日本來去進梨稅那進梨稅的部分呢主要大概是從這個新瀉那或者是秋田等等的看他們自己的喜歡什麼樣的梨種那特別是新瀉可是現在問題在於說"},{"start":8464.048,"end":8480.139,"text":"量啦第一個是量不夠然後第二個就是說有中間商那導致說他們變成說他的利潤可能都被中間商拿走那爭取不到這些好的離稅那就沒有辦法產出好的這個水利給我們的鄉親朋友們那他們"},{"start":8480.999,"end":8505.082,"text":"的說法我認為也可以請次長跟看一下台日協和看怎麼樣來去做他說我們現在很多台灣的縣市首長都在推縣市外交跟日本的各個縣知識在建立關係那把這一種我們的需求要透過廣告文宣也好讓更多可以提供的人知道那這樣我們的supply供給就能增加那需求不變的"},{"start":8506.483,"end":8535.943,"text":"需求不變的狀況供給增加的話那當然價格也會下降那我們也可以拿到更好的離稅那這個部分市長有沒有辦法跟我們的台灣負責日本相關業務的這些外交同仁們來去談這件事情因為我想不是只有嘉義縣會有類似這樣子的問題我們當然也是希望說嘉義縣跟農業局來跟中央的這些政府們一起來去推動這個部分所以請市長簡單來回應一下然後接下來再請我們台日相關的同仁來回應"},{"start":8536.864,"end":8551.696,"text":"非常謝謝委員關心跟支持台灣的農業因為其實講到不管是哪種農產品最終端的產品是好的那它的很重要的是源頭比如說高階梨的那個梨碎的來源那就很重要所以我們非常樂意做這樣子的橋樑"},{"start":8554.098,"end":8575.913,"text":"希望透過縣市對某個縣也好對城市跟哪個城市也好去確保雙方因為在農業的結合是密切的是不是可以結合成一個不管是姊妹市也好或是戶房也好或者是對於供貨來源品質的一些協議我想我們都非常樂意來做這樣子的協助跟平台"},{"start":8576.513,"end":8587.862,"text":"好那這個部分的話我就請我們縣的農業局再跟農業部來對接那請問台日協可不可以簡單來回應一下主席好委員好台日協洪英傑報告"},{"start":8590.347,"end":8610.05,"text":"其實因為離歲的關係苗曲縣有個三朝町跟北龍町跟我們的大渡鄉還有石岡鄉並結姊妹都市那是因為離歲的關係那所以每年大概春天的時候就會有卓蘭卓蘭鎮的人去因為要拿離歲所以去苗曲縣訪問"},{"start":8611.411,"end":8631.545,"text":"那苗曲線他們也反映一個問題他們因為人口高齡化的關係所以他們去取這個離稅會有就是說越來越少的情況這是他們結構的問題那我們也去幫忙就是說促進兩個都市交流然後譬如說因為我們年輕的農家去那邊拿"},{"start":8633.322,"end":8660.716,"text":"打工度假嘛對 也是一個方式或者是把我們的年輕同學以前都直接就在那邊就把這個離稅的問題就解決了沒錯 我們有提出這個建議那我們就請農業局跟次長次長跟台日協因為他們都在講新縣你現在提供一個新的可能性出來那今天的質詢就有就有成績出來了 謝謝你喔感謝 感謝那鳥取縣也是一個我還沒聽到他們講這個東西現在我知道了它是跟哪一個我們台灣哪個縣"},{"start":8662.538,"end":8671.396,"text":"台灣的台中那我們也把他搶下來非常好 謝謝次長跟台學協那接下來我們次長問一下肥料供應的部分"},{"start":8673.122,"end":8701.081,"text":"市長昨天農糧署跟我們說今年三月的戰爭風險提高之後原物料的供應跟庫存的頻率現在從每個月的檢視提高到每週來檢視目前尿素應該可以支撐到半年左右年底應該是無雨但是我們擔心的是除了庫存之外就是擔心恐慌造成的搶購物價可能就被哄抬現在有沒有掌握到這樣子的狀況"},{"start":8702.288,"end":8727.37,"text":"有 謝謝委員關心因為其實在肥料的原物料這塊其實我們都一直有在盤點那也就像委員說的至少在半年內一直到年底這個原料是沒問題啦 這供應是夠的那對於我們國內肥料供應最大宗的就是台肥那我們也跟台肥這邊有取得共識就是說對於第一線農民需要使用的這些肥料我們就是不漲價那吸收當然由台肥跟政府這邊來協助這個差價的協助 因為"},{"start":8729.091,"end":8758.079,"text":"在第一線的農民這邊如果肥料有漲價對他們來講是非常大的一個負擔所以我們跟台肥有這樣子的協調所以目前台肥的話會吸收這個我們跟台肥就是政府跟台肥會來處理這個肥料的差價的這塊那另外我想知道說現行的肥料補儲大概就是會落在農系跟複合肥料嘛那如果是特殊肥料液態肥料的價格持續偏高那農民可能會考量到說轉向複合肥料那這樣子會不會集中到單一皮箱"},{"start":8758.819,"end":8776.975,"text":"對我們來講其實就是說化學肥料當然有它的效果因為會比較快那也有農民使用上的這個習慣性但是其實我們手頭上其實還有一些有機肥料所以我們覺得就是其實這雙邊這樣的調整其實希望能夠在第一線把農民所需要的這些資材能夠控制在非常穩定的狀況"},{"start":8777.816,"end":8798.957,"text":"好因為哪些可以透過農會系統處理哪些可以透過市場機制處理這個部分再麻煩我們再跟第一線來做哪些是納入這個輔助的範圍的品項這個價格替代肥腫技術輔導這個部分可能就是要跟我們因為其實第一線接觸的都是農會來跟他們再來討論一下因為我擔心這個狀況"},{"start":8802.039,"end":8813.364,"text":"我是希望說可以善用我們的區域糧肥技術來去強化我們的替代施肥還有堆肥利用這個部分那部長這個也跟部長有一點關係"},{"start":8819.247,"end":8840.675,"text":"部長你看這個外交很重要耶外交它跟農業也是直接相關喔所以人人都是外交官部部都是外交部每一個部門也要麻煩外交部幫我們連接起來今天就聽到一個我們未來的離稅從過去我們習以為常的薪稅那個 抱歉 薪卸然後甚至可以到鳥取現我覺得這個都是很好的一個"},{"start":8842.569,"end":8858.898,"text":"再麻煩部長來去幫我們協助一下跟農業這個結合在一起是 報告委員因為農業部有跟我們這個協商我們也在代表處也設了我們農業組也為他們安排了一個"},{"start":8860.772,"end":8888.086,"text":"辦公的地方本來是喬不太出來後來我們農業部長我們跟他們好好的溝通現在也可以共同辦公部長再麻煩鳥取縣跟嘉義用離稅的部分來給他節圓一下讓我們的同時就是我們剛才講的因為現在是高齡化的狀況包含我們台灣跟日本都一樣那我們要他的離稅但是他沒有因為人口老化沒有辦法去採集的話"},{"start":8889.167,"end":8915.225,"text":"怎麼樣來去把整合起來那就是外交部可以去發展的一個方向這個部分再麻煩部長好 我會來寫因為我當台東市長的時候就建立了跟鳥取縣這個跟台東市的就是我任內的有時候持續在交流中我是跟嘉義很適合好啊 那就麻煩部長再麻煩一下了這個離稅的部分我們很關心那再來就是台灣因為剛才講到的中東情勢因為這個遷移法動全身從肥料到這一個整體的"},{"start":8917.026,"end":8932.315,"text":"甚至我們肥料之後就是糧食嘛糧食有可能會出現的問題或者是在我們就講了能源的問題這個是非常嚴峻的那過去這兩個禮拜我已經在跟這個華盛頓郵報還有這個日經亞洲的國際媒體我就已經不斷的在跟他們提出來就是說我們希望"},{"start":8933.235,"end":8957.917,"text":"Pivot to Asia重返亞洲這個事情它必須還是在美方的優先順序裡面我不斷在強調也希望美方能夠聽到那包含昨天跟參議員們的對話我也一再的在強調這件事情因為對台灣來說美國在印太地方的存在它是最好的震懾力那我是希望說部長你們這邊透過外交管道"},{"start":8959.148,"end":8986.44,"text":"我相信共和黨民主黨他們各自有他們的不同的戰略觀但是絕大多數的智庫也好分析師也好都知道這一個世紀美國要面臨的挑戰者絕對不是中型國家像是伊朗或者是已經沒落的強權俄羅斯這個關根本都不是美國的在經濟層面軍事層面安全上面都不是美國的對手那如果美國在持續的分心或者是他的資源"},{"start":8987.58,"end":9015.202,"text":"再稀釋的話那可能他們就有辦法在印太突破那過去中國這一年來你就看到說英國啦這個加拿大等等不斷的來去訪問中國就是這個狀況在外交上面他們也開始出現了他們內部上面的一些問題美國跟這些國家所以我們更要重視美國在印太地區的存在那這個存在我們很擔心那就是沒有人再把這個管道再透過這個管道再去強調這件事情"},{"start":9017.023,"end":9033.675,"text":"因為每一個佈置在部署在印太的軍事資源就少一個部署在印太的資源這我一直在強調的我們還是希望部長可不可以簡單來回覆一下有沒有這個有沒有方向怎麼樣來去跟美方來去談這件事情"},{"start":9034.868,"end":9053.264,"text":"報告委員 因為川普總統是第二任在第二任他的政策也都很明朗了在安全上當然就是NDS跟NSS這兩個主要的國防跟安全的報告就奠定了我想"},{"start":9053.644,"end":9077.259,"text":"印太還是美國最重要的一個區域印太司令部我想跟整個第一島鏈還有周邊國家的關係我想台灣當然沒有在集體安全的組織裡面我們跟美國只有台灣關係法六項保證可是跟其他國家的鏈接是有很多的小多邊在進行這也是委員很關心"},{"start":9078.2,"end":9094.908,"text":"所以我覺得大的政策方向那當然也反映在這個包括現在軍售軍購的重視上面那只是說要責任分攤那在這個完之上呢我們是覺得經濟跟安全已經密切相關所以我想川普總統透過關稅投資還有供應鏈重組啊是有把"},{"start":9098.65,"end":9122.348,"text":"台灣編織進來它的再工業化這個整個戰略裡面所以我是覺得我們先前也許有一些人會擔心或不確定性很高但現在已經比較明朗那我們應該做些什麼就是根據這個大的國家的戰略我們就是來操之在己的部分我們就全力以赴那其他的國家的關係我們就做好這個一起來協調部長推動"},{"start":9123.669,"end":9145.919,"text":"我覺得講得很好 但是我覺得還是希望傳達我們的擔憂就是希望他們盡量的 盡速的重返印太所以我們來講是我們的最大國家利益嘛對 這個部分還是希望他們能轉達希望你們轉達一下謝謝好 謝謝謝謝陳委員的發言下面我們請馬文君委員質詢馬委員"},{"start":9155.896,"end":9157.359,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請林部長好,有請林部長"},{"start":9166.545,"end":9188.7,"text":"部長早剛剛有提到就是說我們國防預算的部分我們擔心會被操弄其實這個不用擔心只要我們自己不操弄沒有人可以操弄我們所以就這個部分我們只要把握核心的原則因為尤其在國防預算上面我們希望所有納稅人"},{"start":9189.941,"end":9213.682,"text":"辛苦的血汗錢用所當用然後我們的特別預算也不要腐爛因為它畢竟就是跟子孫借錢的所以只要我們採購的是符合我們作戰需求它是最重要的一個原則所以就這樣子也才是我們審查的重點所以不用刻意去要把中共啦或者美國啊全部都通通扯進來我們要的就是我們的"},{"start":9217.125,"end":9237.821,"text":"最重要的我們的國防戰力的需求我想我們不要自己嘲弄自己這個可能才是重點那另外就是在CPTPP的部分因為最近也被拿出來討論本席其實也觀察到我們在近期其實在很多包括業務報告啊或者其他的"},{"start":9239.122,"end":9254.766,"text":"可能有些相關的資訊上面其實CPTPP近期都沒有談了那台灣經濟跟產業高度依賴出口這個很重要的政府都把加入CPTPP這個亞太主要的區域經貿組織當成重要的施政目標可是我們看到目前為止其實這11個成員國裡面跟台灣貿易往來其實也非常密切總共佔我國對外貿易總額的25.25%"},{"start":9268.049,"end":9271.971,"text":"也是占比很高那成員國當中的日本、新加坡、馬來西亞跟越南也是我國前十大貿易夥伴不管是政府或者到產業其實他們都非常關注我們是不是可以順利的加入然後它對產業會帶來的影響跟衝擊也可以希望透過加入CPTPP可以來提升台灣出口的競爭力"},{"start":9293.9,"end":9304.725,"text":"那為了爭取加入這樣的組織我們政府在之前其實大概也做了一些事推動了萊豬的進口而且告訴我們的民眾因為在CPTPP組織中的國家所有成員國都開放萊豬進口所以這是國際規範我們也必須要這麼做"},{"start":9314.969,"end":9334.533,"text":"在台灣萊豬是一個食品安全上面的議題過去民進黨在野的時候也極力的反對所有相關萊豬萊牛的進口可是現在加大宣傳向人民保證說這是我們可能要加入國際組織一個很重要的一個承諾那我們也開放了那CPTPP"},{"start":9342.216,"end":9353.443,"text":"的部分我們除了萊豬開放以外我們也有很多根本還沒有經過協商的部分可是行政院已經向立法院提出12項修法的草案而且也都在民進黨當時人數強勢的情況之下都通過了包括修改農業管理法"},{"start":9363.59,"end":9365.292,"text":"把農藥的試驗資料保護期延長從上市開始起算十年非常長的時間然後修改漁業法還有投資經營外國籍漁船管理條例我們甚至有很多我們漁民的權益都把它犧牲掉了我們因為我們修過了"},{"start":9383.411,"end":9385.755,"text":"那另外又新訂了遠洋漁業條例就這些還有修改化妝品衛生安全管理法等等減少進口化妝品的標示這些我們已經都通過了還有包括萊豬的進口"},{"start":9398.695,"end":9416.589,"text":"可是我們現在看到CPTPP如果不是我們的金包夥談判副總談判代表他在他的辭職信上顯露出來的其實大家都還被蒙在鼓裡所以我們希望知道的是政府"},{"start":9417.25,"end":9445.957,"text":"一直在做很多的開放我們減少關稅我們甚至主動降了很多很多周邊國家包括日本我們很多的關稅主動把它甚至降到一半以上以下就是原來假設20我們甚至只剩下10這個犧牲都已經做出來了可是我們現在看起來我們沒有任何在CPTPP上面有的進展那這一部分部長有沒有說明"},{"start":9448.228,"end":9471.342,"text":"報告委員這個新DPP的重要性跟我們的努力我想大家也都了解那至於說進展怎麼樣現在可能在一個地方就是說成立工作小組之前有一個可以雙邊諮商這個是在加拿大做主席國的時候通過的那因為行政院有個經貿談判辦公室他必須去統合"},{"start":9472.483,"end":9496.534,"text":"整體的談判策略 因為這要從戰略的角度這不是個別一般貿易的問題部長 你要說的不是我要的答案我們剛剛提到在就是那個原副總談判代表他說得非常清楚我們根本就沒有努力在CPTPP上面去加入的這樣子的一個進程"},{"start":9498.015,"end":9522.294,"text":"所以這是他覺得非常可惜或者他遺憾的地方這也是他提出來強力訴求的地方也是我們今天要討論的我們沒有要我們過去跟民眾講也是講這些所以部長我們要的不是你剛剛提的那些答案而是怎麼樣具體的要去做他的推展這個部分簡單就回的方向就好因為你們在預算上面都有編喔包括WTO是不是簡單說一下我說在外交部我當部長之後"},{"start":9527.418,"end":9551.78,"text":"我派了三個次長到像去年是澳大利亞做主席國然後也去日本也去英國那我是有整體的我認為我們是執行單位在整個經貿談判現在外交部變成我們的外館要跟人家交涉可是我剛剛講的是要有一個上面指導的戰略然後整合我們跨部會的能量然後很鎖定有對象國家比如假設今年是越南"},{"start":9552.481,"end":9566.912,"text":"那這個我們跟台越整個經貿發展戰略裡面去談怎麼樣互惠因為我們都知道有中國的因素然後各國也不願意去得罪中國的時候我們怎麼去突圍這個就是我想顏惠欣副總台辦代表"},{"start":9567.492,"end":9590.97,"text":"他認為提到的我覺得這個也是指出了包括機制上一個任務編組跟真的把它制度化 但是能量是不一樣第二個就是說所謂我們的談判戰略的指導才有我們雙邊關係的交涉我們外交部是在整個經貿談判裡面是在變成是一個我們有駐外的外館我們去交涉可是上位的東西必須要有"},{"start":9591.61,"end":9614.43,"text":"部長我相信因為你有特別提過在CPTPP也許外交部其實是有用心可是楊真你完全不重視就在這個實質性裡面清楚的揭示這樣子的一個狀況所以我們要很明確的知道說大家要怎麼樣去共同的一個推動而不是告訴我們"},{"start":9615.311,"end":9620.975,"text":"當我們我們剛剛講我們犧牲那麼多付出那麼多把關稅持續的下降以後我們接下來的成員接下來的一個主辦主席國是越南我們也說越南現在台商在當地有很多的投資台越的交流也非常頻繁如果我們剛剛提到的包括加拿大包括像越南這樣我們都還沒有我們在之前付出這麼多以後在這樣子的一個條件優勢底下我們都還沒有任何的一個作為"},{"start":9645.391,"end":9659.167,"text":"最讓人家不可以接受而且最可惡的就是他們根本不在乎我們從他的辭職信上面看到楊真女他完全不在乎的情況這是我們不能接受的當國人"},{"start":9660.148,"end":9664.57,"text":"要犧牲這麼多的情況底下所以就這個部分因為中國的因素始終存在如果中國的因素我們就認為沒有辦法克服那我們就不要去再編這麼多的預算交出這些啊就這個部分我們希望外交部就這個部分必須強力的要求而且經貿經濟部今天也在這裡就這個部分我們要求不要再晃點我們所有的國人"},{"start":9688.121,"end":9690.685,"text":"當你用掉大家那麼多的經費的時候全部都在打假球會讓大家不能接受所以就這個部分CPTPP我們持續請外交部再提供給我們相關的這些作為那"},{"start":9703.781,"end":9722.757,"text":"這個進展到底怎麼樣再提供書面資料好不好那經濟部可能就這個部分也可以提供我們相關的後續他的處置作為謝謝那另外駐美大使他現在已經變成職場霸凌的最高等剛剛因為他不是第一次"},{"start":9724.238,"end":9742.604,"text":"這個問題已經越來越嚴重所以我們希望部長可以慎重的去考慮這個部分因為這個第二次發生外交部掌握了解的狀況到底是什麼剛剛部長有稍微提到可是我們還在等這些管員要循機制去提出來嗎"},{"start":9743.524,"end":9763.559,"text":"因為我們都說要外交部對於這一次的事件有說持續要求各駐外管處的首長落實妥善管理及領導責任問題是被檢舉霸凌的人就是首長那我們應該要怎麼做他的處理程序是什麼有沒有比較簡單的一個做法因為"},{"start":9766.161,"end":9782.095,"text":"在根據媒體提出的具體事證裡面有三項第一個就是餐廳打包的菜色不如預期把主管降至副主管這是第一點第二個他的妻子在官邸換掉清潔工至少20個服務他的外交人員至少5個人"},{"start":9783.616,"end":9802.909,"text":"然後第三個家眷進出辦公室對官邸服務不周到在辦公室大罵文官第三項也許你們需要再做一些調查因為他的因素不是那麼主觀可是剛剛說的第一項跟第二項是不是有把主管降成副主管這個部分很明確有沒有"},{"start":9804.383,"end":9833.096,"text":"有一個這樣的案例但是是有事證也經過法定的程序所以我並不認為說人事的升遷然後因為個人的事情因為這沒有正式申訴那是外傳我也不希望說打擊我們外交部整個我們的行政的程序所以有申訴我們一定全力來辦沒有申訴我會主動來了解但是不能夠因為有一些涉案的人或者是私底下或是另外的再去轉傳"},{"start":9834.136,"end":9839.778,"text":"這樣子的話我們每一個館長在現場我們同意部長就這一個部分因為我說這個很明確嘛你就是主管變成副主管他到底是什麼因素這個你們去查查以後這個會很具體那第二個清潔工換掉20個這個也非常嚴重因為老實說清潔工他可以有什麼除非非常懶惰那你怎麼用的全部都是報告委員在美國你要去找一個清潔工恐怕都要拜託來"},{"start":9859.985,"end":9860.908,"text":"所以用說20個我們會請人事處好好去了解是哪20個"},{"start":9866.657,"end":9890.086,"text":"這個部分因為 要拜託來的那如果是這樣 汰換的程度這麼嚴重我想這個部分也去查 因為這個很明確嘛你外交人員去服務的需要五個人外交的工作非常辛苦如果在這些雜務或甚至不相干的事務上面有受到霸凌的狀況 那不是第一次如果這些聲音我們只聽"},{"start":9891.767,"end":9899.053,"text":"一個說法那可能還會有第三次因為我們上一次已經有經歷過一次所以不要因為他是誰的人或者有什麼樣的考量不管他是不是因為美國人是比較特殊那他是專任的還有什麼其他的考量"},{"start":9907.901,"end":9921.8,"text":"這個都不能影響到我們對於職場上面受到霸凌的不管是同事也好或者其他人員也好這個都不能影響這些這是基本的要求所以就這個部分我們希望不是只有聽片面的"},{"start":9923.201,"end":9937.319,"text":"應該要怎麼樣有具體的一個事證或者要去查查清楚不要再發生憾事以後再回過頭來想要做什麼樣的彌補那時候哭都沒有用所以就這個部分是不是請部長可以再去做一些具體的一個"},{"start":9938.588,"end":9965.882,"text":"對 我們對於職場霸凌 零容忍請大家如果有管道申訴沒有的話我們也會主動來了解那有些個案剛剛已經有提到比較具體的話那讓委員所指示的我們會來幫他釐清好 謝謝不要只聽首長這樣不好意思 再利用一點時間因為我們這個WTO其實也是很重要那我們這一次因為美國現在已經把關稅工具"},{"start":9966.963,"end":9983.712,"text":"的工具它把它戰略化那這樣的模式正在重塑整個世界台灣也不是一個可以自由去簽訂大量的FTA或者去主導這個經濟秩序的我們也不是這樣的一個角色或國家所以就這個部分我們認為事態是非常嚴重的"},{"start":9988.815,"end":9992.998,"text":"就WTO的部分 我們在國際經貿的體系當中 最重要的立足點從來就不是政治的影響力我們這一次因為名稱 名稱我們要據理力爭 沒有錯可是我們因為這樣的因素 然後主動缺席這個對我們來說影響很大因為我們主要是制度上的定位 我們的政治影響力其實是很弱"},{"start":10012.614,"end":10028.974,"text":"那WTO其實就是少數讓台灣能夠以正式會員身份去參與甚至主張權利而且要求非歧視待遇的一個國際平台所以這一次沒有出席WTO部長會議的意義不能只是看成民生的爭議而已"},{"start":10029.995,"end":10032.978,"text":"表面上是尊嚴的問題那其實也做了修正可是我們後來卻因為他名字寫錯或者性別寫錯我們還是沒有出席這個對我們來說會讓全球唯一一個台灣可以制度性參與的多邊貿易的這個場域我們自己去限縮我們選擇缺席那已經把我們有限的這樣子的一個制度空間我們把它縮小了"},{"start":10056.758,"end":10058.08,"text":"這對我們來說影響很大你有第一次 你有那下一次如果還其他國家還是發生這樣的事那我們就都還不要參加嗎部長剛剛其實也有委員提到韓國的問題你比之前的部長其實更敢有作為啦至少"},{"start":10072.375,"end":10088.234,"text":"你對韓國提出有其他的一個就是因應的一個處置作為那現在聽起來好像他們也願意做改變那如果像這樣子WTO這個是更嚴重的問題我們卻選擇缺席"},{"start":10091.878,"end":10096.603,"text":"讓人家不可思議因為在現在多邊的體系正在碎片化其他的國家都可以透過像這些FTA或地緣政治的聯盟他們都還有第二個選項他們還有B計畫可是台灣沒有"},{"start":10108.875,"end":10116.637,"text":"所以我們在WTO對台灣的重要性它不是關稅減讓而已它很重要的非歧視待遇 第一個第二個 規則的保障第三個 是可預測性所以當這些我們自己把經貿問題把它政治化以後對台灣會有什麼樣的影響這個部分是不是簡單的部長可以簡單的回應我是同意委員我們要窮盡一切可能爭取出席"},{"start":10136.321,"end":10153.308,"text":"但這次為什麼最後沒有出席雖然我們書面資料也有倒查秘書處也有代為分發那最主要是說他要入境他這個入境除了矮化之外就是說因為我們沒有免簽那這個國家其實說實在也比較不是一個法治的國家"},{"start":10153.948,"end":10182.768,"text":"那因此在這處理上他又沒有給我們正確的邀請函以前有一個解決方案就是說你的邀請函裡面就是以平等待我那他一開始沒有可是後來他表達他要補足這個資料可是時間已經很接近那有一些行政上的困難等等所以我是同意委員我也跟我的同仁講我們的外交處境很困難就算拿著抗議中的牌子我也要到會場"},{"start":10184.219,"end":10201.114,"text":"因為說實在啦我們不用我們尷尬是不尷尬他就尷尬但是有時候連入境都有困難的時候啊這恐怕就不是在其他的國際的場合我們可以比較去用比較屬於抗議或比較甚至一種比較幽默的方式去表達"},{"start":10201.454,"end":10217.59,"text":"現在我們因為我剛剛提到其實WTO對台灣來說是非常重要的所以如果我們這樣子連這樣子一個這麼重要的一個我們可以參與的國際平台像這樣我們都至於缺席因為你可以透過很多其他的方式"},{"start":10218.371,"end":10243.263,"text":"未來如果其他國家也持續有這樣的做法的時候我們難道就一直頭腦不清所以我向委員報告就是說我們就是記取這一次的經驗我們就是要求以後要主辦國都必須先承諾而且這承諾不只對我要對WO的秘書處那也要讓這些大國們支持台灣的他們也了解所以我們不要希望這個事情我們不希望它再發生"},{"start":10244.143,"end":10249.326,"text":"因為時間的關係這個部分我們還是持續認為我們不要把它擴大在政治上的考量應該要怎麼樣去要求或者因為每日都出手了那還是沒辦法那以後我們的處境會越來越艱難這個部分有什麼樣的一個比較具體的做法也希望在下一次的一個報告當中其實可以把它明確的提出來好不好謝謝"},{"start":10270.58,"end":10284.225,"text":"好 謝謝馬文君委員的發言部長您喝口水下一位我們請洪孟凱委員質詢好 謝謝好 主席謝謝 麻煩請林部長就請林部長謝謝"},{"start":10298.629,"end":10312.831,"text":"部長好 本席在這邊也跟剛剛馬文君委員還有很多委員共同關心都一樣先講 我覺得很為我們外交部同仁報不平也為我們朝野委員在過去這段時間裡面"},{"start":10314.895,"end":10341.231,"text":"大有為的政府告訴我們是說萊豬一定要進口如果沒有進口的話會有設定這個障礙沒有辦法加入CPTPP2021年那時候陳吉仲 王美花都跳出來講是說這個是一個很嚴重的障礙好 通過之後從2021年到現在2026年這四年多很多外交場合跟很多我們外交部的同仁我們只要接見或者是說出去參訪"},{"start":10343.206,"end":10370.811,"text":"國際的議會的議員我們也都講啊外交部提供給我們委員的談餐也都講說拜託最後一定要寫一定要講請貴國政府支持我們中華民國加入CPTPP所以外交部我們委員不分草野藍綠大家都希望能夠把握每一個機會發言甚至我剛剛也看到英國這兩天也有代表團來然後外交部長也有跟他們希望能夠加入CPTPP嘛"},{"start":10371.913,"end":10399.269,"text":"對 九個國會議員那結果CPTPP主要推動主責的單位是誰行政院經貿談判辦公室那行政院經貿談判辦公室居然有我們一位高階的文官 嚴慧心女士她在最後 其實她的辭職信看完之後你真的覺得是說她是保留她最後文官的尊嚴一個"},{"start":10400.68,"end":10424.128,"text":"高考及格在政府單位裡面做了幾十年的文官並且他的父親也是我們過去很資深的一個警官結果到最後居然變成是說他要要辭職的時候他要把他的這一些大白話給講出來然後講消極敷衍沒有具體的計畫沒有具體的時程外交部之前知道嗎"},{"start":10426.035,"end":10442.197,"text":"我們外交部該做的我們都全力以赴所以外交部之前也不知道說經貿辦事處到底在幹嘛我們只知道是說只要面對到每一個國際單位面對到各國代表來我們都要講CPTPP到最後好像變成是西反社士嘛"},{"start":10443.39,"end":10472.247,"text":"那但是外交部也不知道說經貿辦公室根本沒有具體的計畫經貿談判策略要有OTN所以看來部長你也不清楚嘛所以你也不用幫他們背書嘛但是看起來就是我覺得今天我一定要用這個機會再幫我們外交部同仁報部評應該主責負責的單位沒有具體的計畫沒有具體的時程沒有具體的成果敷衍消極然後我們其他人在前面衝"},{"start":10473.919,"end":10499.948,"text":"不覺得很莫名其妙嗎 政府還是被一體打部長我們外交部啊 比如說派三個次長啊到達澳大利亞 日本跟英國去交涉因為這三個國家最重要嘛之前的主席國是加拿大 我們也全力在溝通可是我剛剛講說因為上位的談判策略啊因為這不是一般的經貿談判 因為涉及到政治因為中國的因素 大家所以這個時候怎麼樣去 部長"},{"start":10501.428,"end":10528.868,"text":"所以本席要講的是我們到目前為止都肯定我們外交部的同仁所以我講是說過去這四年我們朝野委員也都很努力你們給我們的談餐我幾乎都有留著每一次的最後一定都講尤其是我們日本的國會議員來最後一定都有一整頁寫說請拜託委員不分朝野藍綠都要跟日本的國會議員美國國會議員拜託他們支持中華民國加入CPTPP但是"},{"start":10529.881,"end":10549.505,"text":"將帥無能累死三軍啊外交部現在也被累死啊現在遇到一個奧克蘭三原則怎麼去突圍現在講你這邊可以掌握的狀況那當然大戰略還是要整體那現在就是沒有戰略啊所以消極敷衍嘛來 部長現在講你可以掌握的狀況駐美代表"},{"start":10552.739,"end":10570.208,"text":"他2024年已經發生過一次爭議了那當時我記得外交國防委員會我們也有要求是說那他是不是回來這個他每一年每半年這些代表其實也都有回國報告的狀況的時候能不能來外交國防委員會當時沒有讓他回來嘛"},{"start":10570.851,"end":10596.831,"text":"那到現在2026年 因為那個指號剛好正在這個進行一些 我想對美那沒關係 我覺得部長 我很持平的來看我對這個駐美代表完全不認識但我覺得空穴不來風還有以我對於民進黨政府說實在話我們國人也一定程度了解如果今天這個駐美代表再被爆出說霸凌再被爆出說換20個傭人的這些事件"},{"start":10599.873,"end":10628.027,"text":"如果說不是事實或說沒有事實基礎的話你們早就已經講說這個是中共的陰謀啦這是假訊息啦這是認知作戰啦但到目前為止沒有欸到目前為止沒有人講說這個不是事實欸你們只講說會再調查會再了解欸我覺得這很嚴重 為什麼部長我跟你很持平很客觀我們黨派不同但是很嚴重的是因為駐美代表代表我們中華民國"},{"start":10629.517,"end":10651.226,"text":"他就是最重要的一個溝通管道如果說他在那邊天高皇帝遠作威作福然後吃香喝辣我覺得美國人也沒有辦法接受啊怎麼會中華民國你們派來一個官員是這個樣子那你不要跟我講說什麼過去這個美國傭人不好找那如果這樣的話蕭美琴駐美代表以前有換20個傭人嗎"},{"start":10653.544,"end":10670.515,"text":"以前馬政府時代的時候最有名我們金補充代表有換20個傭人嗎沒有啊那一樣都是在美國那為什麼 因為那個都是網路跟媒體轉傳有待查證你看有待查證嘛你也不敢講不是假消息你也不敢講認知作戰嘛就是因為我太了解你們了嘛我們"},{"start":10673.277,"end":10693.978,"text":"知道是好事我們說不算如果說今天真的沒有任何的事實基礎的話早就府 院 黨 青鳥 側翼 網軍全部出來講這個是認真作戰 這個是假消息不要陷入中共的陷阱但在這一次沒有而已經被爆第二次"},{"start":10695.296,"end":10722.842,"text":"所以現在有媒體才講是說如果他現在沒有辦法短時間回來接受外交國防委員會接受立法院的質詢能不能用視訊能不能好好的請他也面對國內的媒體他自己出來否認自清反駁讓我們知道是說所有的外交同仁在國外也都是為我們中華民國努力捍衛而不是做威做福吃香喝辣有可能嗎"},{"start":10725.558,"end":10748.493,"text":"可不可以下一次 我想如果說可以的話 召委絕對不會反對我們下一次就馬上就排外交國防委員會可不可以用視訊的方式來跟駐美代表來去做一個了解行嗎這可能要根據立法委員行使法還有有關於相關的規定部長你做過立法委員你算是我們立法院的學長"},{"start":10750.643,"end":10774.937,"text":"你當時也是在野黨的委員如果說現在一個執政黨的駐美代表已經連兩次爆發這樣的事件那為什麼不是報駐日代表為什麼不是報駐泰代表為什麼不是報駐新代表那尤其美國又最重要其實報告委員齁其實提的這網路傳的這幾件事情以前都報過了"},{"start":10776.246,"end":10805.626,"text":"只是現在把它又放在一起了當然我們還是要去釐清我們也鼓勵正式的申訴如果不放心 我個人的心想我現在是很無奈的笑是因為你這樣講是很適度啊始終不怕開水燙了解 一定要釐清報第一次 大家重視2024年很重視第二次 第三次 第四次沒關係啦 都報過了啦所以我成不成見也沒關係反正駐美代表天高皇帝遠啊那他想怎麼樣吃香喝辣"},{"start":10806.786,"end":10829.845,"text":"那就我沒意見啊我部長都自己都在國內都不敢這樣子了結果一個駐美代表在那邊可以這樣然後傳的風風火火傳的真的就像是鉅細迷離也沒有辦法澄清也沒有辦法自清我不要冤枉任何人啊但現在連讓他自己面對媒體面對國人說明說他沒有這樣的事情也都不敢也都不肯也都不願意嗎"},{"start":10831.869,"end":10854.355,"text":"不會說不願意啦 應該是願意啦我想如果適當的方式 人家外界的質疑說明那應該是要來說明部長 你也很無奈吧那方式我想就是說因為傳起來 那個也不是你的人嘛過去傳過啦 當然有些是大家現在把它放在一起那我想委員或是有這個關切 我們都應該要加以說明"},{"start":10856.069,"end":10868.849,"text":"部長有時間到但是我真的很與眾心長啦講這麼多我只想強調的是外交部的同仁我對外交部的同仁我其實有多一份的尊重跟多一份的"},{"start":10869.844,"end":10893.009,"text":"包容是因為我國的外交處境都不容易但就正因為如此如果有任何人站在那麼重要的位置他可以在吃香喝辣可以這樣子用職務來霸凌然後只仗著說他是誰的人只仗著說他跟誰派系好然後誰都管不到我覺得這樣子真的是中華民國悲哀"},{"start":10894.161,"end":10904.588,"text":"我也不樂見這樣的狀況那我更不希望是說讓媒體報導說好像變成是外交部長管不動一個駐美代表因為那個駐美代表老闆根本不是外交部長部長真的加油啦謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":10937.1,"end":10942.983,"text":"謝謝主席我先請經濟部次長請經濟部次長好 次長好這個其實跟我之前這個案件有點類似我記得之前在經濟委員會的時候有問過淘寶等等相關的那時候有得到一些答覆後續也有做一些處理這一次我想問的是瑞幸咖啡"},{"start":10963.573,"end":10989.52,"text":"就是說因為目前按照這個瑞幸咖啡的這個說法就是經濟部也有講說他說這個是這個若是透過代理商進入台灣屬於這種商業行為那就沒有辦法去用投審會來處理那但是到底是怎樣這個我現在還不是很清楚是不是我可能請次長稍微說明一下現在瑞幸咖啡的狀況是 謝謝委員關心那瑞幸咖啡它是之前"},{"start":10990.908,"end":11009.711,"text":"有透過在台灣的公司我應該這樣講台灣的有一家公司有在申請這個公司的設立那我們也同意了後來呢這個台灣的這家公司呢就有表達就是他希望能夠"},{"start":11010.96,"end":11039.387,"text":"代理銳信透過新加坡代理銳信所以呢我們跟這家台灣的公司有一直保持密切的聯絡因為對於這個這家台灣公司跟新加坡商他之間的關係到底是什麼樣子而且他們也有簽訂相關的合約所以我們現在還在繼續的了解中他們那個契約的內容非常的多所以我們在逐項的在了解"},{"start":11040.067,"end":11063.699,"text":"這個要麻煩經濟部,因為畢竟雖然他說是咖啡,但比如說像瑞幸咖啡在中國它有APP嘛,那就算沒有APP,比如說你要加入它的會員,它會員也會有台灣人的資料。所以無論如何它一定會有跟我們國人的隱私要如何保障的問題。那如果說單純的中資,其實投審會來處理什麼之類的,這個我覺得目前來講我們的機制已經越來越完善。"},{"start":11064.159,"end":11079.881,"text":"但如果是按照就像剛剛您講這個如果是用代理的方式這個相關的這個規範這個審查當然可以有內規但是我們顯得法律有沒有不足的地方就是有沒有可能就是需要更多的法源才有讓經濟部有辦法處理像類似像這樣的事務"},{"start":11081.103,"end":11106.837,"text":"資安的部分個資的部分也是我們非常的關心所以我們也有在詢問台灣的這家公司到底他跟新加坡商有談到是否會仿效這個瑞幸在中國的使用APP的部分我們還在等台灣的這家公司給我們回覆資安絕對是我們要資安等於國安所以這個部分還有個資的部分"},{"start":11107.897,"end":11123.762,"text":"這是一定我們會很堅持的因為這個就是說真的就是說這個就我之後還會繼續在追這一題然後那但是我覺得像你說TikTok他也是說他在新加坡但我們背後我們也都知道他的自己的跳動其實在後面是佔有實質的這個影響力"},{"start":11125.723,"end":11153.149,"text":"我現在看他如果說他在台灣不管他的logo什麼之類如果他跟中國都是一樣的那等於又說他用一個新加坡然後又說他要帶然後又從台灣來走代理但是問題是他背後很有可能就還是中國那所以這個部分除了我們要釐清有沒有中國以外他的隱私要怎麼保障這兩個層次我們可能都要來釐清那這個之後可能再到經濟委員會或者說到辦公室我們再來繼續持續追這件事情我覺得國人的隱私要保護這真的非常的重要是"},{"start":11154.509,"end":11159.512,"text":"那謝謝 主席我再請外交部 謝謝 請部長請部長部長好 喂好那我相信今天很多人都是要問霸凌相關的這個事情新聞報導什麼等等之類的這個我待會晚一點再說因為我覺得有幾件比較重要的事情我想先問第一個就是這一個"},{"start":11182.383,"end":11208.024,"text":"這個卡麥隆就是說現在這一個我剛看前面的委員有提到就是說因為我們缺席這一個WTO的這一個部長會議那確實啦這怎麼看都是一個中國的施壓那我認為啦就是說在過往我們在這個2758號其實也是打了漂亮的一仗那現在呢中國還是持續用這樣的一個方式去矮化台灣的一個國格目前外交部對此事的應對是如何"},{"start":11209.08,"end":11229.756,"text":"對這事情就是說我們當然積極爭取那也要有堅定的立場但是我們也要預防未來再發生就這個部分因為大家在交涉的過程包括WTO的秘書處還有包括各國都其實表達關切但是柯麥隆他就是吃了剩腿鐵了心因為你要入境"},{"start":11231.017,"end":11248.063,"text":"你必須要經過他的海關啊那好那後來要補救嘛發個邀請函至少讓我們有一個對不對符合我們身份的可是這個時候就錯誤擺出所以時間一直在過所以我們的方式就是我們把資料先送進去包括我們的書面的所有的報告我們的立場"},{"start":11248.843,"end":11276.08,"text":"那也表達抗議然後也要求未來包括秘書處都要針對申請主辦國必須承諾不能夠違反相關規定所以有的時候危機也是轉機我們把它轉為未來不會再發生的一個契機所以這件事情的處理我們是確實是有整體上考慮到我們的目標然後我們的攻防那最後這個結果當然我們也表達抗議不能接受可是我們讓它以後不會再發生"},{"start":11277.361,"end":11296.292,"text":"那我覺得這件事情我認為是處理的好就是說以這件事情來講我們外交部絕對不能自私立場那你看這個標題這個自由社會標題有說外交部說這個一中沒有論誤導國際社會那我現在我發現就是當然一中沒有論就是最主要是中國在傳遞這個一中沒有論但我看在台灣講一中沒有論的人也不少"},{"start":11297.112,"end":11313.142,"text":"就是說這一個他說這個全球都挺一中這是鄭麗文說的那他講這個所謂的全球我就來看這個新加坡這邊的這個非營利組織這個學者他就有講他說去整理各國的文件他就放些這個所謂的"},{"start":11314.683,"end":11333.396,"text":"這個所謂的一中原則然後呢一個中國的政策這兩個的差異他發現在各國的文件裡面真正有recognize說啊這一個中國是唯一的合法政府而且台灣把台灣放在中國的一部分根本就不是他們常常宣稱的一百八十幾國而是五十一國而已"},{"start":11334.076,"end":11359.482,"text":"所以這一個論述其實很重要就是說2758號那一次的戰役我剛剛前面有提到我們把這個法律的論述裁文而且很多國家站在我們這一邊嘛那現在我們是又再提出在外交上對方講的這個一中論述有問題然後也不是每一個國家都同意而且看起來是很多國家並沒有採取這個立場對 所以這個有點像假訊息啦所謂的什麼一中是全球共識"},{"start":11361.124,"end":11376.652,"text":"有些國家跟中共建交的時候都還沒有二七五八號決議而且有些國家其實就是沒有一中政策不要講一中原則很多的國家包括G7裡面也有甚至有些國家說那你要有一個中國你要有一個印度政策"},{"start":11377.432,"end":11400.132,"text":"那對台灣來講我們在國際上就避免跟一中有什麼牽扯不管什麼一中政策很容易變成一公原則這也是為什麼現在國際包括G7的這些首長會議都宣布的時候他們在談都不談在談不太用一中因為會被扭曲你沒講的話中共都把你放進你的嘴巴了何況你去講的一中然後你接的是政策他接的是原則所以日方"},{"start":11400.632,"end":11426.384,"text":"比如說或像英國或像這些其實很多包括印度等其實大家都不願意順從中共那樣子扭曲因為他會得寸進尺他會無中生有然後最後就用這個東西來給你霸凌然後因為他說實在他是像流氓一樣的用作法很多人沒有不想要跟他整天在爭吵所以就導致他到全球南方所以這51個國家其實很多"},{"start":11429.125,"end":11438.332,"text":"根本都不瞭解什麼一中兩中三中啊都完全不瞭解了就在你中國去講啦就是連這五十一個都很多事加起來你就給他好處啦那些國家你就替我寫就好了所以不能夠用什麼一個中國這個什麼什麼東西是國際的共識這個沒有這個事情"},{"start":11447.419,"end":11472.714,"text":"對 所以我覺得因為這是2758他們現在發現越來越多國家反對他又又回來要講這個所謂的一中那一中我們在應對的方式剛剛部長其實我覺得講得非常的清楚但我覺得國內真的是很多人會去應和這樣的論述那就拜託我們這樣的論述我們是要開展就是我們對於這件事情的外交的方式我跟委員補充一下九二共識這個字眼是什麼出來的 兩千年嘛第一次政壤輪替嘛"},{"start":11473.194,"end":11492.823,"text":"那1992年有講92公司嗎 沒有2758號決議最近跑出來嘛就是因為中共的一中嘛所以大家都要去反制所以美國的國務院就有四點立場然後現在所有的國家包括IPEC很多的這個議會都通過就是在否定中共他用這一種所謂的認知作戰"},{"start":11493.883,"end":11510.693,"text":"其實去扭曲說用法律戰來賦予他武力犯台的基礎跟壓縮我們的國際空間所以為什麼很多國家一開始就說你們台灣一直在講說不要去支持2758決議是什麼東西很多國家根本不知道然後結果歐洲議會那些議員去看之後發現150個字裡面沒有出現台灣所以這是一個假的東西然後稻草人然後可以講久了變成 謊話說100遍變真的嗎其實這只要一個氣球你只要一個針把它戳破"},{"start":11522.419,"end":11550.604,"text":"大家了解之後可是因為全球南方很多國家沒機會了解因為他就附從中國嘛我們台灣不能去附從中國真的我們要刺破對方的謊言有一個前提就是我們還是要趕快審總預算不然的話你那個那個針連買針的錢都沒有因為我們要刺破對方的技巧就國王的新衣沒有穿但是他一直國王說他有穿我們知道很多人就說你穿好漂亮久了他也覺得他是國王有穿新衣就是沒有穿衣服"},{"start":11552.382,"end":11580.741,"text":"因為時間到了那接下來就是說今天很多人在關心這個霸凌的問題那我剛剛因為前面大家已經提很多我就不重複那我剛剛有聽到部長應該是有講到就是說當然新聞報導是新聞報導新聞報導我們要去驗證但是雖然還沒有直接聽到有申訴但就算沒有申訴是不是也會做主動的調查對我們已經有要求了解然後我們人事處也在整個進行了解中OK我覺得這個反應很重要就是說我們不是說要申訴我們就要主動調查我們不容許霸凌"},{"start":11582.502,"end":11606.92,"text":"我們期待就是說如果有申訴我們辦理沒有申訴我們要去了解因為大家在關心了所以我也是有我有得到初步就是針對這個事情的回應那委員們希望說那個余大使他有對外的說明我們也會就請他應該要對外有所說明那這個就是因為有時候有一些批評難免會"},{"start":11608.641,"end":11636.596,"text":"不斷的隱身啦比如說我提到就是外面講到所謂換了20個這個清潔工這個是20個去哪裡找啊但我不能因為這樣子說人家的質疑我們不去釐清我覺得如果有的改進對不對沒有的話我們要盡快讓國人知道啦我覺得這才是最重要的事情我覺得作為政府的官員我們就是要讓國人知道現在政府做了哪些進度違和我認為這是重要的好 那時間到了謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11640.994,"end":11646.218,"text":"謝謝接下來請謝龍介委員上台質詢主席我請補充 請林部長"},{"start":11671.965,"end":11697.736,"text":"柏庭你好你好很辛苦我家的工作是很辛苦也挑戰性很多啦尤其我們台灣中華民國這八十年來我家的處境就是全門挑戰是但是喔 要不信啦我不能當這個地方去講那個意識形態沒意義啦"},{"start":11701.565,"end":11714.992,"text":"你們就在外面那麼辛苦在拚啊再來當這個年少的對不對 要講很深奧的今天四月初一月二月三月請問你 你跟你的同齡到那裡就很漂亮"},{"start":11719.429,"end":11741.722,"text":"你們有出國訪問嗎?我有出國過,既去既去,既回來回來,既開就開嘛常態性的,就是他還要拖到中午,勤拖中午生大家捏到手鼻鼻,這叫你講中午生,不然是保盲,鄉鎮保盲最高興的你請他照應,對不對,不然把你三八角"},{"start":11745.184,"end":11756.816,"text":"不然就不能送家庭 這樣就難看了所以你剛才在問 你都不想跟人家說 我知道你的正宗下懷 無心的對你最好的"},{"start":11759.499,"end":11786.592,"text":"有啦 進行過啦 新增項目還是要你大願同意啦新增項目好啦 你來找我 我就跟你說新增項目我幫你支持啦那個 副市長 委員 美國這是我們很重要的一個外交的中央不能把派遣的逗陣 管理的逗陣 放卡地盤給大家看尤其下市下徵 去到外國繞過去 這不好"},{"start":11789.452,"end":11804.42,"text":"當然不是你做的 裡面有人他代表啊 我個人對他的個人也沒有意見大家都為了中華民國在做事情啊那麼為什麼在他主席 幾年就在給大家說他八百萬五百塊 開給大家看"},{"start":11818.71,"end":11847.122,"text":"這是你內部 外部的資料是怎麼可以丟出來的好知道啦 我的解讀是說 老總統要把他挖起來 挖不起來他不會說朱祕代表是非常重要的一個角色不經過美國的同意 你就安心要把他挖起來 哪有那麼簡單的但是你沒有到30年 你出來替他定情你會記得嗎 幾年 你出來替他定情"},{"start":11849.824,"end":11853.787,"text":"這就是一個陷阱我們做多久美國以外 日本對我們也很重要你算突破這記憶這我給你簽訂了日本裡面 當時到大陸建高的時候有一個密切那就是中華民國的官員 總統 副總統"},{"start":11879.485,"end":11884.167,"text":"行政議長跟外交部長這四個人不能去訪問大總統擔任副總統的時候去參加安倍首相的家庭這算一個突破歷史第二的突破當然努力很多但是第三個突破"},{"start":11904.858,"end":11921.285,"text":"對他來說這就是美中不足 也沒有對等也沒有尊嚴去到那裡 硬硬硬硬回來還給我們放婚照 他還給我們放公一半就整個安排裡面 沒有我們本來的期待 那麼漂亮這種沒有尊嚴 沒有對等的外交他不是說跟我們做好的台灣有事 就是日本有事為什麼最好會煞車"},{"start":11934.568,"end":11943.995,"text":"有什麼最好的事情 當然你這裡不便說這件事 要說突破 我說怎麼開的照你講 你是安排到一個可以辦宴會的結構但是相對 日本也有接觸的很大的壓力你要體諒對方如果這樣 你看可以彌補嗎 有要求要求一遍嗎"},{"start":11963.083,"end":11971.845,"text":"都已經要重新去看一般救世人家現在在那裡講出第一句安大 要去社務救中 要去參觀一下你有要再安排一遍嗎一般去比較有尊嚴 比較對等中華民國的最高行政首長有要再安排嗎 委員你以前有沒有參考你現在叫我去 我幫你加油 聽到你這樣"},{"start":11994.979,"end":12019.073,"text":"有要再安排一遍嗎?因為那個 左院長就有對外說明這是私人行程私人行程 你回來都說外交大突破跟私人行程我本來是要提案說這個不應該由自己包機啊應該我們給他專機都不為過 怎麼可以讓他花錢咧對不對 不是外交大突破嗎"},{"start":12022.233,"end":12045.644,"text":"給他加油就加油嘛 國家給他開就開 你看一個行政議長 自己又提前 我去看一張圖這樣變成你過去 你對外交安排 這些奴隸主要都幫你摸索不需要嘛 勇敢嘛 面對嘛 但是你的關係 不錯就是不錯嘛在坦白講 所有你去問台灣的鄉親就對了 大家對日本的印象都不錯"},{"start":12048.539,"end":12053.042,"text":"這個管理可以維持,可以突破的時候,你為什麼不敢,勇敢不敢走?為什麼啦?為什麼?你又要安排再多讓道義長,我們的鄉親議長,再多訪問日本嗎?"},{"start":12069.042,"end":12095.689,"text":"不過委員前面的前提說是什麼安排這個我想卓院長已經有對外說明了這是私人行程你沒辦法再安排對他還可以再一個私人行程去關心我們台南子弟在西武隊打棒球的林安可他可以再安排一次私人行程去嗎"},{"start":12097.806,"end":12121.474,"text":"這個委員的意見我們都有會尊重你有沒有要安排沒有啊因為不是我安排的所以委員一直假設這個選舉你外國補充你要給主席代表說啊你沒有要我安排不然你是怎麼可以去你去是什麼地方我自己的我當然是我可以自己安排自己啊你可以再去一遍嗎"},{"start":12123.39,"end":12149.133,"text":"我現在在這裡外交有很多這個非常微妙的地方所以我要講這個我已經講過嘛你確實已經做了一個很重大的突破嘛喔 照理講你回來有準修六年嘛 你沒有敲鑼打鼓嘛但事實這是一個在第一日期間這五十年來很重要的一個突破"},{"start":12152.408,"end":12168.033,"text":"你說他們都會聽到 我在內行 我幫你問這個就是這樣嘛不過辛苦 全辛苦啦可以再度突破嗎你有要再度去突破跟日本的往來 再度去日本訪問一遍嗎謝謝委員的提醒 跟期許你不敢把台灣人當他們 不然我們這麼天理"},{"start":12179.821,"end":12186.686,"text":"你如果要安排再去一遍 你就不敢這樣你是要做一個外交的戰術"},{"start":12189.536,"end":12212.942,"text":"外敲要有勇氣也要有智慧啊所以這個是非常...所以你在這裡跟我承諾就變成沒有智慧嗎沒有啦委員很有智慧 你有智慧的意見我都會放在心上我是傾聽你"},{"start":12217.645,"end":12240.557,"text":"因為那時候,你能夠緊張,沒有很扯到,這是對你對外交的恐懼,這點我是跟你很傾聽的但是對台灣一定會氣一半就對了,每每各各,是各自的很多但是又去對方給我們落魅各個,我們要吞下去,這我也沒辦法他這話我也是要吞下去啦,但是對我們很不公平啦"},{"start":12246.75,"end":12256.534,"text":"會變成一個憲政議長出門不對勁 沒尊嚴開始燒到燒花的事情不是錢的事情 也不是機票的事情對不對 轟轟轟轟出來 轟轟轟轟回來這樣我們不可以給你獎賞所以這是漏氣一機本來可以得分的 到現在沒那麼多本壘之前被刺殺了 謝謝"},{"start":12283.94,"end":12288.645,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我請林部長請林部長"},{"start":12306.138,"end":12335.017,"text":"好部長我們的外交工作非常辛苦那我想請問一下在網路上有一個粉專政客爽那他有一個影片就是呢總統在接見就是美國代表團的時候因為總統在發表演說然後在那個影片裡面呢你眼睛閉起來然後有點頭請問一下那個時候你是不是非常的勞累疲累有度過嗎"},{"start":12336.278,"end":12348.691,"text":"有閉目養神嗎?謝謝委員的關心 外交的工作是跨時區很多的業務因為是同仁有提醒我 外界有在關心這個問題我是有去看了一下"},{"start":12359.688,"end":12387.904,"text":"是有閉幕啦,但很快就回神了很快回神,但是有一點,有杜姑是看起來是有啊,但是我是說打瞌睡與否是一回事,但拼外交不能打折啦我是說我是很全力所以部長也很誠實的講說那個時候確實有閉幕養神啦我們可以這樣講嗎對啦,這也是很快就回神了啦"},{"start":12389.325,"end":12413.187,"text":"因為我們質詢 因為我們還是會關心部長你的身體的狀態希望你都保持非常旺盛的精神來拚外交另外 這一次美國四位的參議員來台訪問我在這邊要特別肯定一位就是我們的現在是國防部的副部長徐思潔"},{"start":12414.728,"end":12422.193,"text":"為什麼呢 因為在參議員他在訪問的過程裡面到中科院訪問徐思簡在他們的面前特別提到就是我們已經我們已經付款但是仍然延宕還沒有交貨的這些軍購我覺得這點非常重要我們現在在審查這個有關於我們國防特別預算其實我們一直非常關心而且社會大眾最關心的這一點就是說我們預算給了"},{"start":12444.428,"end":12447.93,"text":"錢也付了但是為什麼我們採購的這個軍售遲遲沒有辦法到貨老實說過去我在看我們不管 雖然是拼外交也好你們到國外訪問也好或者美國的訪問團來台灣也好我都沒有看見我們的官員公開的來關心這個事情"},{"start":12464.6,"end":12468.042,"text":"來表達我們社會大眾關心我們已付款卻未到貨的這些軍購我覺得至少徐師姐敢講出來而不是在這些美國的訪問團裡面然後再大罵說這個藍白不是那個沒有通過預算很重要的就是我們社會大眾應該關心的事情要做反應這一點我覺得我是我這點我是肯定徐師姐的做法"},{"start":12492.054,"end":12497.133,"text":"那另外請教一下就是剛才也有委員特別講到WTO部長會議"},{"start":12499.13,"end":12527.831,"text":"部長 我們台灣雖然小 但是我們算是貿易大國我們的貿易量全球排名第15所以WTO對我們很重要很重要的是 台灣對於WTO也非常重要但是這一次呢 因為這樣的外交因素因為賀邁龍其實是非常無理 而且呢有矮化我們國格的問題使得我們第一次沒有辦法參加WTO部長"},{"start":12529.057,"end":12552.318,"text":"的會議這是非常重大的損失我們也擔心他未來不要變成一個常態所以部長你在這邊可不可以來做一個了解就說我很擔心今年我們沒有辦法參加部長級會議未來會不會有其他的會員國也如此無理所以除了對柯麥隆"},{"start":12553.419,"end":12567.635,"text":"的抗議之外 我們有沒有對WTO的秘書處做強烈的抗議你們WTO不能說你今天就尊重今天主辦國 愛怎麼搞就亂搞啊台灣是貿易大國耶 我們很重要啊"},{"start":12569.396,"end":12591.116,"text":"柯班長既然要主辦這種WTO的國際會議尤其是部長會議他就應該遵守WTO的規定他不遵守以他控制我們因為要簽證入關使我們實質上無法入境那我們現在就是說要求WTO的秘書處以及未來要稱辦的國家都必須要"},{"start":12592.148,"end":12607.539,"text":"就是先承諾不能夠有差別待遇我們要求秘書處要做這樣的一個因為申辦國現在也是有國家申辦我們也在交涉他們當然也表達他們會根據WTO的規定因為他不能這一次是一個極為極為例外他不能成為一個常態其實我老講我們是WTO的會員國我們不是觀察員"},{"start":12619.848,"end":12641.705,"text":"我們是會員國另外最後用一點時間剛剛特別提到你們在昨天對於南韓的應對方案臨時喊卡可是其實這樣的問題是越來越多我這邊也有接到民眾的投訴他在德國柏林的布蘭登機場"},{"start":12643.326,"end":12655.354,"text":"不然登保機場去這個就是它是自動的check in的時候這個系統呢出現在你的國籍的國籍欄裡面只有台灣,China然後當然韓國電子路徑卡還有前一陣子丹麥丹麥是對於我們的拘留證變成CHN所以呢"},{"start":12666.761,"end":12690.647,"text":"我們外交部也斥責也有斥責頒賣 也有跟他們抗議然後越南簽證也是如此也是China 然後瓜湖台灣所以也就是說韓國電子入境卡的事情它變成不是單一個案可能越來越多的其他的國家機場也好 拘留證也好簽證申請也好都會出現這樣子的一個把我們矮化的狀態"},{"start":12696.488,"end":12708.83,"text":"那當然我們本來是在韓國大家很生氣說我們把他改成南韓那如果我這樣子看那麼多那我們要把德國改成西德把你越南改成北越把你丹麥改成樂高王國算了"},{"start":12709.741,"end":12738.68,"text":"但是這樣子好像也不是一個正伴所以我們所以在講說我們中華民國的外交確實碰到很多的困境剛才也講的就是說除了韓國電子入境卡這次因為國人去韓國非常多所以感受很深刻可是剛才講的德國的機場越南的簽證當然可能到丹麥去去居留的人不多可是陸陸續續都碰到相關的狀態"},{"start":12739.961,"end":12758.589,"text":"所以請問一下部長有沒有一個就是未來一個怎麼樣的對應的方式我看得出來外交部不想把這個爭議直接的拉高希望給外就不要給韓國一些時間可是別說德國啦或者是丹麥這些我們要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":12759.717,"end":12777.47,"text":"各位報告 確實這個樣態也很多因為現在很多國家都在整合電子化的政府包括路徑 也許不同的政府單位也許有不同的做法現在在整合中就產生中共可以施壓的一個切入點"},{"start":12779.211,"end":12791.855,"text":"當然每個國家的情形我們都會根據那個情形來處理這個我想有關於韓方我們已經處理了丹麥我們在處理中基於外交就是對等丹麥有沒有可能有一些轉圜"},{"start":12794.216,"end":12822.126,"text":"是我想其實丹麥包括歐盟的國家包括丹麥裡面的很多政要也都認為他們在兩年多前去做這個有關於我們在他們那邊的這個所謂的居留證的登記這個國籍的部分去更改這個是他改變的現狀所以我們當然在交涉中在交涉過程我們也基於對等之原則那我們也有告訴他方案了"},{"start":12823.493,"end":12848.714,"text":"因為他要入境我們也是可以把他空白或用什麼所以我說要努力我們在台灣當然可以用大內宣方式或者用意識形態的方式比如說剛才沈博洋委員可以講一堆其實全世界沒有啦可是事實上我們國人出境或者在海外居留等等都陸續去碰到相關的問題"},{"start":12850.615,"end":12868.342,"text":"所以這已經不是單一事件這並不是我們自己在這邊覺得說這個就是全世界沒有這樣的做法可是事實上就碰到這些像這個到德國去check in的時候那他們也是來跟我們反映啊所以很生氣很生氣可是問題他要登機啊他還是要去登機對不對所以我覺得在這個部分我還是希望建議外交部能夠很務實的去看待這個問題"},{"start":12879.146,"end":12885.712,"text":"我們可以去抗議的 像我剛剛講WGO一定要嚴重的抗議因為我是會員國啊 會員國不能參加部長級會議 開玩笑了但是有一些他跟我們沒有邦交的跟我們沒有邦交 或者有一些他跟我們有一定的經貿往來或者是韓國是因為我們的旅客的人數佔他們非常大的一個比例我們有更好的更多的一個就是談判的條件"},{"start":12905.109,"end":12920.039,"text":"所以我們要很務實的去因應這些越來越多的像這樣的一個入境爭議 好不好好 我覺得委員的分析跟因個每個情形我們都要做妥當的應處對 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請劉許廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":12935.638,"end":12937.799,"text":"謝謝主席 林部長要請請林部長部長晚安 辛苦了晚安好今天聊相關一些經貿合作協定的一些經濟效益但我想大部分社會大眾比較關心的最近新聞上的熱頭其實是一樣跟經貿談判相關的當然就是我們的副總談判代表的一些風波"},{"start":12962.612,"end":12990.759,"text":"那我們當然對於國家痛勢經貿談判好人才表達非常深切的遺憾但是他的這個辭呈裡面其實也提出了非常多的一些值得大家來做政策討論的一個方向所以我們先花點時間討論這個事情齁請問部長這個我們的嚴副總談代表的辭呈的內容啊你有事前有掌握嗎你可不可以簡單的敘述一下重點大概有哪些我知道他有递辭呈你知道他有递辭呈什麼時候知道的"},{"start":12991.758,"end":13011.192,"text":"嗯 就是就是舊歷年過後第一時間你就掌握了全部的內容嗎已經有隔幾天了隔了幾天但是你就有看到全部的內容你是事前掌握還是事後再補救啊都比較後面的時候我有得知就是因為他的家屬希望這個辭職能夠盡速生效"},{"start":13015.915,"end":13038.653,"text":"因為他的身份有雙重的因為他還有我們這個所謂台美會的對嘛 他是以台美會的這個身份來加入OTM經貿談判辦公室嘛所以這個我想有幾個問題要就教一下這個部長 不過那辭呈的內容你事前不見得第一時間能掌握這本身倒是可以理解但事後這個東西變成新聞話題了他自然內容重點你可以簡單報告一下吧"},{"start":13039.517,"end":13064.47,"text":"他的執政裡面提了哪些重點我想他有提到我們談判的機制人才還有涉及到就是跟CPTPP這個談判的怎麼去推動沒錯一個叫做CPTPP的政策執行狀況一個叫做談判人才培養的一個制度還有第三個是內部溝通的失靈大概就是這三件事情分別要跟部長做一下探討這個我想喔"},{"start":13065.715,"end":13088.968,"text":"我們就從CPTPP開始談因為今天主題還是經貿談判協議嘛對不對這個嚴富代表的辭呈明確的指出這個我們國家領導人層級啊這個對內的強力宣示啊甚至要求部分的政策開放都是基於說要加速CPTPP申請入會的一個程序但是這個辭呈裡面講實際的執行程式恐怕不是這樣卻充滿了消極敷衍的態度這個落差很大"},{"start":13089.728,"end":13108.838,"text":"那我也聽了部長前一段時間的回應也好答詢也好也有講到你說每一個國家的立場現在都有掌握對不對因為12個會員國奧克蘭三原則要全部有共識決對不對全部國家立場您都有掌握嗎我們都有持續掌握中而且去交涉有掌握有交涉那可不可以告訴大家誰贊成誰反對呢現在"},{"start":13110.589,"end":13126.177,"text":"因為我們都要面對到可能中共的因素那有一些我就不好代為說明因為講的時候中共可能會針對某一個對象有一些施壓那多少國家支持多少國家反對基本上沒有國家反對台灣因為"},{"start":13127.498,"end":13134.283,"text":"大家要瞭解台灣是符合所有自由貿易的條件我們這幾年有很大的進展因為台美簽了21世紀貿易倡議我們又跟包括英國加拿大很多都簽了一些像ETP部長你先回答問題因為奧克蘭三原則高標準能力跟意願我相信我們台灣也有做到"},{"start":13149.153,"end":13173.809,"text":"遵循貿易規範 我覺得我們表現應該是不錯唯一的障礙 其實剛剛很多人也質詢嘛 其實就是共識覺嘛那你剛剛講通過國家都沒有反對 那共識覺這怎麼會是問題呢好 那我跟委員簡單說明齁就是反對要找理由 你要說明 你不能說我們要申請 我們要去說服每個國家 可是有些國家有政治的顧慮或怕中國經濟協邦 我跟你講 他有政治的顧慮或其他壓迫也都是反對的 我跟委員講 我這邊很重要 客觀的障礙嘛"},{"start":13174.349,"end":13193.566,"text":"也就是說所謂共識決是你反對要有理由能夠說服別人不是說我不贊成所以現在您的意思是講說沒有辦法達成共識決是因為有部分的會員國反對但是都不講理由事實上這些他並沒有公開反對也沒有公開反對對對對但是他就是沒有辦法給你12個"},{"start":13196.689,"end":13211.305,"text":"會員都正式的表態另外有一個我們在突破的就是所謂因為他要成立工作小組所以現在有一個方式在加拿大當主席國的時候他已經允許你所謂的pre-consultation"},{"start":13211.866,"end":13237.022,"text":"你在成立工作小組之前的雙邊的諮商是可以進行的所以我們跟某些國家有展開雙邊諮商我現在問的是數量比如12個這個會員國裡面對不對因為要全部共識或者大家至少要開綠燈我們才能順利的通過那12個國家裡面有多少國家也開綠燈我不講個別吧我現在有公開講的包括像日本、英國都是有公開講台灣的進入是支持的我們要突破障礙突破障礙裡面還有幾個國家反對"},{"start":13238.988,"end":13258.727,"text":"不管他有沒有講正當的理由目前是真的沒有國家敢公開反對因為台灣的符合自由貿易的程度是比現在這12個國家高很多現在成立工作小組的有一些自由貿易程度還差我們很多也意思說大家都談得很愉快所以這變成政治去介入到所謂共識決我今天沒有在跟你討論這個政治我們要讓他凸顯出來就是說你反對要說理由"},{"start":13261.169,"end":13282.604,"text":"是啊 因為說理由他就說不出理由說不出理由就等於贊成因此這樣子我們12票我就要問你幾個國家幾個國家現在沒贊成但說不出理由的幾個國家贊成說不出理由反對還說不出理由就沒有辦法開綠燈嗎就沒有國家真的反對啊沒有國家真的反對但是共識覺得過不了這不是很矛盾嗎就是有政治利益介入啊"},{"start":13284.54,"end":13313.369,"text":"好啦 部長也算是能言善道啦我講的是報理啦大家都很努力啦 是不是啊輪值的從加拿大到澳洲馬上要到越南 對不對因為大家要知道的是這包含不管是這個嚴副總談判代表最後的這個辭職信裡面所談他都關切的內容我們就總要具體的關心具體的推進 對吧對啊 所以我們就要面對問題但今天你又講說有些國家這個反對但講不出理由那應該就是贊成但是好像因為又有壓力所以突破不了共識決 好吧你有一套說法"},{"start":13313.689,"end":13324.488,"text":"那到底我們做不做得到 有沒有明確的時間表呢我們現在行政院有說要整個就來推動嘛我們叫外交部是其中扮演一個角色"},{"start":13326.687,"end":13354.167,"text":"所以有沒有辦法有具體的時間表 或者是安排因為有各種談判 時間表跟具體方式都沒有要正確的認識奧克蘭三原則不要被扭曲 變成政治力介入 這第一點第二點 我們要成立工作小組啊 必須主席國家比如今年是越南他如果是正面的態度 那站他在主持這個會議的時候 空間表 對對對 會議的時候他現在是不是正面態度我們都主持會有說 沒有反對喔 我們就率成"},{"start":13354.967,"end":13374.701,"text":"啊你又說一一投票 你們是不是贊成 那很多人就說我們沒意見我們就眼下看眼前嘛 那越南友善嗎 會不會有壓力我們應該說台越之間有很多合作的公司我們有很多合作的公司啊 台商等等 非常密切那談判就這樣子嘛 除了我們參加這個我們來說理以外你有多大把握他今年會很有善的態度 而且有軍事的突破"},{"start":13377.003,"end":13399.195,"text":"你有多大把握他今年會是友善的態度我們在裡面有機會這個要由行政院整體的來做談判策略外交部我們因為有外管我們會去執行外管也是你抓種吧對不對除以在外管方面外交部會去就是說指示他們怎麼去推動可是上位的"},{"start":13400.255,"end":13401.436,"text":"談判的目標跟策略"},{"start":13430.515,"end":13454.013,"text":"但如果 如果他是友善的 我要加碼 你也要講嘛所以我今天問你的原因是這個 多少人贊成多少人反對委員講到重點了啦 對不對重點就在這裡所以你要明確整體談判的規則 雙邊關係那我們再簡單一點好了這是give and take嘛那今年越南輪值主席 你是樂觀還是悲觀簡單一點就好因為現在我們需要行政院有一個談判的目標跟策略的指導"},{"start":13456.226,"end":13484.955,"text":"譬如說我們台商投資我們的貿易很多然後台商發展半導體的產業我們的政策工具喔我跟委員講其實在所以你個人現在位置上的專業評估你覺得是樂觀還是悲觀嘛我的角色是外交部長這個經貿談判是有一個機制就是我們的角色把它扮演好我提醒部長我們花了八分多鐘的時間去談這件事情今天這樣子的一個回答恰恰就是嚴副總談判代表擔心的事情嘛"},{"start":13485.535,"end":13511.56,"text":"好啦這一題先到這裡因為我還有別題要問啦第二個其實我更關心的其實是這個外交人才的徵補跟掌握在本席了解OTN的編制上當然談判總代表抓總兩個副總談判代表的設置原則上就本席的粗淺的認識啦一個是經濟部體系嘛因為我要了解國內的產業對吧產能夠做合理的策略安排一個當然是外交部體系要尊重外交體系的專業演副總談判代表是哪一個體系出來的"},{"start":13512.554,"end":13537.724,"text":"他算是 所以他是比較是 雖然是掛在這個台北他是經貿 不是他的背景的專業另外一個是我們的陳明祺政事啊你看補他位置的是陳明祺是不是就是外交體系出來的對好現在他的裡面過去他所揭露的一些狀況不管是對內的溝通也好或者是怎麼樣顯然他受了蠻大的一個委屈啊那我想請問他是外交部"},{"start":13538.064,"end":13552.806,"text":"在派駐等於是外交部放在經貿談判辦公室裡面代表外交部的人才不是不是不是我們外交部是城市政事啊你事前有沒有掌握他遇到他只是因為經貿談判辦公室是個任務編組那他需要有一個正譜的一個角色那是同時間"},{"start":13553.527,"end":13568.275,"text":"他以台灣美國事務委員會主委身份兼任嘛所以當然是在外交體系嘛好他在裡面遇到問題或者是遇到一些委屈的時候外交部有沒有事前的掌握他有沒有循線跟你來做反應您在這個過程中扮演了什麼角色可不可以簡單回答一下"},{"start":13569.279,"end":13594.741,"text":"因為這是有經貿台灣辦公室在主政啦那屬於台美會的部分 比如說我們有美國的貴賓來我們也會邀請這個台美會的這個主席來參與這是屬於台美會的事務所以你跟他們只聊台美會的事不聊OTN的事嗎 經貿台灣辦公室他們在主政完蛋了 你這樣回答我就幫他捏把冷汗難怪他會孤軍奮戰嘛"},{"start":13596.667,"end":13619.808,"text":"他當然期待外交部也在裡面協助一下因為從他個人的身份他也不能跟他的黨官作對比如說我們外交部我們當然也會請中經院進行對於加入CPTPP對各國經貿包括對於GDP的影響我們這個就是屬於我們透過我們外交部的機制在做可是談判策略是行政院經貿辦公室整體"},{"start":13621.229,"end":13646.286,"text":"他是跨部會的 包括經濟部 農業部等等我真是捏了一把冷汗他裡面點出來的問題其實就是理論上來講這東西要兼顧產業的專業也要兼顧外交的專業兩邊要一起提供人才共同討論 形成理性決策這才是OTA應該扮演的角色但顯然在裡面他所呈現出來的不管是他的控訴也好 或怎麼樣也好顯現出來是不對稱的 也就是"},{"start":13646.866,"end":13663.484,"text":"也就是出現我都不談什麼是不是符合霸凌等等的細節這不是我今天要爭論的重點但在裡面顯然受了委屈而且孤軍奮戰外交部應該要提供適時的協助跟支援啊所以這就是我為什麼問你在這個過程中有沒有尋求外交部的協助或者是相反團隊的支持呢"},{"start":13664.665,"end":13691.931,"text":"我們在外交部做 我剛剛有報告我們派了三個次長到三個國家派了次長去遊說然後我們也做了調查報告然後我們也發動外管所以屬於外交部的這個部分我相信委員也質詢過很多我們對情資的掌握包括我剛剛講的那些所謂三原則的解釋然後所謂pre consultation在成立工作小組之間的雙邊智商也可以展開這個就是屬於"},{"start":13692.611,"end":13702.73,"text":"我現在就單純問你我們外交部一定有很多人也參與經貿談判嘛他們有沒有跟嚴副總代表有保持密切的溝通給予事實的支持然後你有沒有掌握他受到委屈的狀況有或沒有嘛"},{"start":13704.509,"end":13733.264,"text":"如果沒有的話他就是個問題需要檢討改進我想他提的現象是存在的對不對就是他提到的問題的現象是存在的我們當然要整個行政院我們整個經貿談判的策略我們的團隊我們的分工我們的策略都需要這個應該要徹底的檢討我希望部長您代表的是外交部全部你是外交部的龍頭啊外交部的體系在經貿談判裡面是很重要的"},{"start":13733.684,"end":13759.535,"text":"對我剛剛你剛剛講現在顯然有點缺乏資源的狀況我要再追著問因為他體現另外一個問題叫經貿談判人才的缺乏我們現在部裡面接下來還有多少的經貿談判的人才儲備委員我可以跟你講一個現象嗎比如說經貿談判公司他是戒掉我們外交部的同仁是啊就是外交專業對我們外交同仁他的一個升遷可能就會有影響不利的影響對不對"},{"start":13760.955,"end":13776.12,"text":"當然就是我們還是很支持啊可是這個也要找到適合的人所以外交部第一個在體制上制度上的修正第一要具體立章所以經貿談判的人才確實是一個要有一個國家的談判人才要有專門的儲備機制嘛你是要考量到他就是人才的整個這個制度嘛"},{"start":13778.961,"end":13799.14,"text":"這個委員講得是非常非常關鍵的我今天沒有要為難你的意思但是我今天一定要借這場質詢把話點出來要不然真的延復總談判代表的委屈就白受了嘛就一定是制度要完整你剛剛講到 部長你剛剛回答得來 至少我們今天還有點建設性也就是說 哎呀如果借調到OTM體系等等因為人家是經濟部主導 這已經是歷年來的習慣"},{"start":13800.842,"end":13819.159,"text":"那反而對我們外交人員的升遷跟發展可能會遭受影響所以可能普遍會出現相對困難跟意願低落的狀況這就是行政體系要檢討的東西嘛要不然現在這次調查完又穿過水無痕所有事情保持一致外交談判 經貿談判人才持續稀缺那所有事情原地踏步就完蛋了"},{"start":13819.724,"end":13841.016,"text":"不然我今天話有一點激動 你就不要說話啦我是很希望我們的人才是平衡的尤其因為中華民國的外交常常受到打壓所以經貿是我們的命脈所以我希望外交部花更多的精力跟資源培養經貿談判的人才特別是在借調到跨部合作的時候拜託外交部要當他們的後盾啦"},{"start":13841.936,"end":13854.969,"text":"讓他們可以好好的發揮 這樣整個團隊戰力才會強好啦 我的提醒就到這邊希望我們外交部不管是針對國際經貿談判的一些明確的進度或者是人才的增補培養 更重要的是人才的支持請扮演積極角色 謝謝"},{"start":13859.945,"end":13867.051,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請陳永康 陳永康委員不在請蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在請葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在請鐘家斌 鐘家斌委員不在"},{"start":13881.943,"end":13909.92,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、鍾嘉斌委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請外交部及相關機關兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定那針對今天也有很多委員大家有提到"},{"start":13910.3,"end":13913.503,"text":"其實外交人員真的在國內是一個很重要然後可是我們看到公務人員之前有一個數據外交人員是公務人員體系裡面缺最多的甚至高達40幾%我不曉得它是不是是正確的可是如果有這樣的問題顯然我們的外交體系"},{"start":13932.016,"end":13939.619,"text":"是有很大的危機那這個部分我們也請部長還有我們相關的同仁尤其在上位者應該要珍惜我們所有的人才那外交人員都已經這麼難那要在外交體系裡面找到可以談判的這樣的人才就更困難所以我們應該要從這個制度面上也請部長去考量這個部分怎麼樣讓我們的人才可以好好的留住而且要怎麼樣去珍惜他們"},{"start":13961.149,"end":13967.485,"text":"這個也是我們今天希望提出來請外交部特別重視的部分那本次會議到此結束 散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}