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請主席宣布開會好 各位委員還有各位觀眾人早安那我們就現在開會 首先先進行報告事項請先宣讀上次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1486.363,"end":1503.09,"text":"立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法治委員會第四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年三月三十日星期一上午九十二分至十一時四十五分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳昭志委員等十二人"},{"start":1503.57,"end":1523.799,"text":"列席委員李坤成委員等五人列席官員司法院秘書長高金之等人主席翁昭吉委員小林報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院秘書長法務部部長 內政部警政署就法院安全秩序維護與法警職權行使進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":1525.66,"end":1541.146,"text":"本次會議有委員陳昭資委員等12人提出質詢委員蔡其昌吳宗憲提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1543.764,"end":1561.264,"text":"好 請問這場委員對於這個上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話呢 我們就議事錄確定那接著我就先介紹今天到場的委員以及應邀列席的官員首先介紹在場的委員有陳昭芝委員黃建豪委員張志倫委員"},{"start":1562.711,"end":1581.297,"text":"然後林沛翔委員還有陳軍輝委員好那今天列席的官員有法務部的黃某信政務次長是還有司法院的少年級家事廳的鍾中林廳長內政部的地政司專門委員張專委然後財政部的財富署財稅組的專門委員蔡專委好謝謝然後我們接下來就先好"},{"start":1593.005,"end":1593.285,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":1623.172,"end":1642.963,"text":"首先我必須向社會大眾澄清一個重點就是這次修法絕對沒有剝奪兄弟姊妹的繼承權尤其我們現在是超高齡社會兄弟姊妹其實非常非常的重要但是我們這次重視的是個人對於自己的財產的支配的一個權限"},{"start":1644.537,"end":1673.129,"text":"那如果往生者他只要沒有預立遺囑排除兄弟姊妹的繼承權的話那手足兄弟姊妹一樣可以依法繼承一毛錢都不會少所以我有看到很多人他批評我們的提案但是他的部分可能有所誤解我們並沒有侵害兄弟姊妹的繼承權而是當被繼承人他遺囑有特別排除兄弟姊妹繼承的時候這時候才會受影響"},{"start":1674.449,"end":1697.287,"text":"所以我們的修法只有一件事情就是如果一個人他生前他已經把遺囑寫好了法律要不要去硬性規定一定得分一部分給兄弟姊妹這是我們的核心那我們這個特留份的制度呢它是民國19年在農業大家族時代的產物其實早就不符合現在的這種家庭制度的"},{"start":1698.007,"end":1725.836,"text":"的這個關係了那世界上的文明國家很多國家他們也沒有這個制度或是早就廢棄了這個制度那我們以韓國為例好了韓國在2024年他就已經宣判宣布這個東西是違憲的那但是呢我們到2026我們還在討論這個部分要不要修法所以我們今天是希望跟上世界的潮流我們希望走向尊重被繼承者他對於自己財產的"},{"start":1727.723,"end":1742.359,"text":"一個主要的自己的決定權限當一個人他白紙黑字寫下遺囑說要把畢生的積蓄留給照顧他陪伴他終老的配偶或伴侶或其他人法律卻特別"},{"start":1743.54,"end":1768.634,"text":"強迫他必須把錢拿出來交給一個幾十年沒有聯絡的手足這個合理嗎所以這是我們的核心最近那個藝人那個曹熙平過世就發生這個狀況他希望把錢留給一直照顧他起居的乾兒子但是呢我們的法治卻會讓他必須把錢交給可能他非常久都沒有見面彼此沒有往來的手足"},{"start":1769.815,"end":1793.606,"text":"所以我要說 雖然有人覺得說兄弟姊妹裡面的人是不是有誰生活比較辛苦 需不需要這一筆錢但是這個應該是政府的責任 是社會局的責任不應該強迫被繼承人來去服從這樣的法令所以我要說 不能因為少數狀況就讓所有的兄弟姊妹不管平常沒有來往 不管有沒有照顧他 不管有沒有陪伴他 甚至是"},{"start":1794.726,"end":1821.055,"text":"爸爸媽媽在外面去生的小孩根本一輩子都沒有見過面的都可以依法先拿走一部分一部分的這個特留份更何況民法1149條它就有遺產佐給制度也就是佐給遺產請求權所以任何長期受他撫養或生活上有照顧的必須之人本來就可以透過民法1149條去請求而不是像現在一刀切的"},{"start":1821.775,"end":1847.845,"text":"用特留份來處理這個問題我們不能用80幾年前僵化的法律制度來要求現在的人必須繼續的去做那這次修法的重點是我們尊重醫院回歸遺族自由自己的財產自己決定而且保障真正的照顧者那這個東西這個法案是一個福國利民的法案那我們希望朝野能夠團結一致務必支持好那真的最後"},{"start":1848.725,"end":1857.87,"text":"請所有的立委同仁能夠支持這個法案 謝謝現在我們請翁曉琳委員做提案說明"},{"start":1872.191,"end":1890.981,"text":"各位委員還有主席 大家好我想這次針對民法第1223條關於特留份的規定這條規定其實最早是制定於民國18年在當時的社會背景主要是強調是家族共同體血親之間的"},{"start":1893.282,"end":1911.128,"text":"經濟關係是緊密而且相互依存因此在當事人如果說有立有遺囑之餘還特別有設置有特留份的制度借以來維護家庭成員的基本經濟安全然而隨著時代的演進台灣的家庭形態已經從家族的團體結構"},{"start":1912.888,"end":1932.034,"text":"轉變成為是以個人以及核心家庭為中心那麼單身族以及頂客族的比例是逐年攀升那兄弟姊妹之間的互動與情感聯繫可能也不如以往的這麼緊密因此在此由檢討修正給予兄弟姊妹特留份制度的必要性"},{"start":1932.734,"end":1944.659,"text":"那現行的法律強制規定兄弟姐妹是可以請求應濟分三分之一的特留份但是就像我們之前所說的在現代社會當中這種制度的設計其實已經與實際的狀況脫節如果我們強行要求個人一定要留遺產"},{"start":1952.523,"end":1978.075,"text":"给兄弟姐妹这可能会对于当事人也就是被继承人的遗嘱自由造成过度的限制导致没有办法依据个人的意志完全处分他的遗产那再说我们放眼国际重视个人的遗产处分的自主权已经是一个主流的趋势像是在韩国2024年就已经正式宣告兄弟姐妹特留份的制度是违宪的"},{"start":1979.298,"end":2007.33,"text":"那麼在日本、德國、法國雖然說他們仍然保有特留份但是保障範圍也大部分都是只限於直系的親屬也就是父母、子女以及配偶相較之下我國現行法規雖然仍然是將兄弟姐妹納入遺產的保障範圍但是其實也不符合時代的趨勢因此在這時候我們要做一個與時俱進的改革修正其實是有它的必要性的"},{"start":2008.632,"end":2022.001,"text":"那麼為了落實憲法保障財產權處分的意志因此本次修正的重點呢主要就是刪除兄弟姐妹的特留份將民法1223條第四款的規定解除對於被繼承人處分財產的束縛那麼同時呢我們也會配合刪除的條款去調整那個修改的項次那最後我們是希望透過這次的修法可以讓法律回歸到這個回應"},{"start":2037.651,"end":2054.129,"text":"现在的社会的形态那么同时呢我们要保障每位国民的遗产处分的自主权那么在此呢也敬请各位委员同仁们能够支持本次的修正草案将兄弟姐妹特别份的制度规定的予以废止以上谢谢"},{"start":2065.393,"end":2066.966,"text":"好 接下來我們請林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":2078.908,"end":2106.248,"text":"主席 各位委員先進本席與上會席總舉之尋間曾向行政院及法務部明確提出應全面檢討現行繼承制度中的兄弟姊妹特留份制規定並呼籲政府正視其與現代社會脫節之問題現行民法第121223條所定的特留份制度是建立於過往以大家庭為主的社會結構"},{"start":2107.731,"end":2135.483,"text":"然而 隨著我國社會的快速變遷人口結構及家庭形態已產生重大轉變我國目前正面臨少子女化及超高齡化的趨勢單身人口比例持續上升 頂客家族日益普遍家庭關係亦趨於多元化發展此等變化均顯示現行制度所依據的社會基礎已不復存在"},{"start":2136.303,"end":2140.153,"text":"然而在現行制度之下即使繼承人已透過遺囑"},{"start":2142.011,"end":2170.254,"text":"明確表達其財產分配意願但仍可能因兄弟姊妹特留份規定之限制至其意思無法完全實現甚至須將其一生累積之財產分配於平時鮮少來往或無實質輔助關係之手足此等制度設計鮮於以人民與對於財產自主及遺主自由的期待有所落差"},{"start":2171.135,"end":2183.873,"text":"是以本案修正重點系刪除民法第1223條第4款有關兄弟姊妹特留份之規定使繼承制度回歸合理分配之本質"},{"start":2187.038,"end":2212.378,"text":"並強化對被繼承人財產處分意思之尊重本席必須強調本次修法並非否定家庭價值或親屬關係而系在保障直系親屬基本生活制度架構之下適度調整與不合時宜之規範使法律在維護家庭倫理與尊重個人財產自主之間"},{"start":2213.689,"end":2233.252,"text":"取得更為切實之平衡法律制度本已應與時俱進隨社會變遷而適度調整倘若拘泥於過往的制度設計無視現實環境之變化將難以回應人民之期待亦不利於法治之健全發展"},{"start":2234.298,"end":2260.4,"text":"本案之提出阻止在使我國繼承制度更符合當代社會的實際狀況落實財產自主以及移植自由的基本原則並回應社會各界對於制度改革的期待眾上所屬敬請各位委員支持本修正草案之通過謝謝好 謝謝林委員接下來我們就請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":2271.175,"end":2283.271,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員同仁各位各位官員大家好本席今天與林佩祥蘇清泉等18位委員共同提出民法第1223條條文修正"},{"start":2286.696,"end":2311.932,"text":"草案核心訴求就是一個順應時代變遷刪除兄弟姐妹特留份的規定把財產處分權還給當事人民法第1223條條文制定於民國第19年當時社會是以宗族大家庭兄弟姐妹共居共財同居共財但現在台灣社會早已是以核心家庭為主"},{"start":2312.552,"end":2336.041,"text":"成年兄弟姐妹大多各自獨立生活對於被繼承人的財產累積及維繫通常沒有實質貢獻然而在這樣的背景之下現行民法規定強制保留三分之一特留份給兄弟姐妹這不僅嚴重侵害了憲法上保障財產處分自由實務上更是引發家族兄弟姐妹間增產訴訟"},{"start":2338.462,"end":2356.482,"text":"甚至許多未聯絡的兄弟姊妹當當事人過世後突然出現要求分配遺產這對長期照護當事人的配偶或伴侶來說極度不公平所以本席在這裡要特別強調只是修法只是刪除特留份並未"},{"start":2357.583,"end":2375.688,"text":"更動兄弟姊妹的法定繼承順位也就是說當事人未立遺囑兄弟姊妹依法仍有享有繼承權但若當事人生前已立下遺囑處分財產法律上兄弟姊妹們就不應該再以特留份"},{"start":2377.128,"end":2395.92,"text":"來強制分產違背當事人的最終意願我們以鄰近國家韓國特留份為例韓國憲法法庭在2024年宣告兄弟姐妹特留份制度違憲理由正是不符合現代家庭結構過度侵害財產中的處分權"},{"start":2397.941,"end":2423.857,"text":"而法務部在去年114年的12月專案報告及委託研究中也明確指出我國已經邁入超高齡社會繼承法制必須翻修這其包含我國移組協會等公民團體以及民眾現在在公共政策網路參與平台上發起的廢除特留份的連署"},{"start":2424.477,"end":2443.493,"text":"都展現了社會對修法的高度的共識跟強烈訴求立法機關應當積極回應這股民間倡議的力量帶領國家邁向法治的現代化所以懇請各位委員同仁與行政機關支持本案謝謝大家好 謝謝張委員那接下來我們請黃建豪委員發言接下來就是你"},{"start":2456.462,"end":2457.796,"text":"妹妹妹"},{"start":2460.578,"end":2487.444,"text":"好 謝謝主席在場各位官員 各位委員我想我們今天這邊討論這個兄弟姊妹特留份的部分還是要一樣再次強調今天這個討論這個修法的過程裡面手足的繼承權完全不受影響兄弟姊妹的法定繼承的地位它依然存在那只是修法只是取消了強制保留給兄弟姊妹也就是這一次修法的重點特留份的規定所以如果被繼承人他沒有特別利益主要將財產"},{"start":2488.664,"end":2505.705,"text":"子弟給其他人的話兄弟姊妹當然他依然可以依照這個因紀份來繼承相關的財產那另外呢我們要考慮到現代社會的變遷我想由於台灣當代社會裡面我們的婚姻關係非常多元不管是離婚率再婚率或非婚生子女的比例我想也比過去農業時代高非常非常多"},{"start":2506.286,"end":2534.445,"text":"那這個法律當初立的標準是確實在這個大家族在家庭和樂融融的年代立下的法律所以認為說兄弟姊妹應該互相照顧但是在我提到剛剛的所說的現在社會裡面離婚率、再婚率跟非婚生子女心上存在的情況之下我們如果還是強制用法律去要求兄弟姊妹之間有特留份的話我想對於很多當事人或對個人來講他的心情上的衝擊跟他對財產分配的自由權還是有很大的影響所以我們這一次的修法是希望說"},{"start":2536.246,"end":2537.888,"text":"所以我們還是要回到這個法律本身"},{"start":2553.866,"end":2573.951,"text":"當時當然是為了防止經濟能力親屬喪失這個生活依據之後可能兄弟姊妹之間互相照顧去立這樣的法但是我想當代社會跟當時民國19年時的當時的社會形態有很大很大的變遷我想法律還是要回應當代的需求所以我們特別提出這個修法也希望各位委員跟我們的行政機關能夠來支持以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝黃金航委員那接下來我們請陳軍輝委員發言"},{"start":2584.642,"end":2608.395,"text":"主席各位委員同仁還有我們今天列席的官員們本席提出民法第1223條條文的修正草案主張刪除兄弟姐妹的特留份規定這是目前外界社會界針對現代社會變遷還有家庭型態的重塑以及個人財產處分自主權的重要回應現行民法繼承制度的結構"},{"start":2609.696,"end":2631.385,"text":"多半成型於民國初期的時候在當時農業經濟背景下宗族的聚落是社會最核心的生活單位家族的成員往往同居共財兄弟姊妹在生產還有生活上具有極高度的依存還有分工的關係彼此的扶持共同承擔的家族的勞務"},{"start":2632.305,"end":2652.198,"text":"在當時的歷史背景下法律將兄弟姊妹列為繼承人並賦予特留份制度是為了肯定他們對於家庭經濟的投入與貢獻這個體現了早期社會對於家族責任和互助倫理的制度化回應然而呢上述制度設計所依循的社會基礎早已跟現代的現實漸行漸遠"},{"start":2655.76,"end":2670.893,"text":"隨著經濟結構轉型多數國民的財產來源主要憑藉著個人離鄉就業的薪資所得專業收入或者是金融投資理財所累積其形成的過程已不再建立在家族成員之間的共同勞動還有共財的關係"},{"start":2673.194,"end":2693.35,"text":"當財富取得形態由家族共同打拼全面轉向成個人努力累積法律制度如果仍維持傳統時代的繼承邏輯勢必會造成嚴重的現實落差難以回應現代社會的發展需求此外少子化高齡化還有都市化所帶來的人口家庭結構改變"},{"start":2694.491,"end":2712.411,"text":"正加速改變我國的國家樣貌核心家庭還有小家庭的比例持續上升這樣子的背景下財產處分的自主性與尊重個人意志已成為現代法治社會的重要價值對於許多與原生家庭關係疏離或是一生獨自奮鬥的國人來說"},{"start":2715.214,"end":2732.135,"text":"應該擁有完全的權力去決定如何處分自己辛苦累積的成果而非受限於過時的法律強制分配大法官釋字第770號就曾經提到財產權不僅是生存的保障更是個人自主發展的基礎"},{"start":2733.036,"end":2757.843,"text":"當兄弟姊妹之間已經沒有實質的經濟依賴關係時強制保留特留份制度不僅失去了原有的社會正當性更往往成為許多家庭遺產紛爭的導火線違背了被繼承人的真實意願我們已經收到很多的陳情案件所以本席才認為有修法的必要本席提案刪除兄弟姊妹特留份是為了落實尊重"},{"start":2758.883,"end":2779.911,"text":"財產處分自主還有被繼承人抑制的核心精神使繼承制度更加的周延並符合現代社會的通念希望各位委員同仁都可以同力支持推動法案與時俱進回應人民對自主生活的期待 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝陳靜惠委員那接下來我們請林德福委員發言"},{"start":2793.919,"end":2818.133,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席 各位委員同仁我想今天有關於修正兄弟姊妹特留婚規定的部分將本條第四條修正為曾有撫養被繼承人事實或繼承人身心障礙或無謀生能力受被繼承人撫養者兄弟姊妹之特留婚"},{"start":2819.414,"end":2830.414,"text":"為其因計三分聚分三分之一為各繼承人中為何僅有兄弟姊妹須符合上開要件"},{"start":2831.576,"end":2852.225,"text":"此能獲得特留分是否有公平性之問題見請審酌又兄弟姐妹曾有撫養被繼承人士時為僅此要件是難衡量兄弟姐妹互出之多寡而一律獲得特留分而"},{"start":2855.107,"end":2879.749,"text":"較難達到繼承人兼之實質平等逆兄弟姊妹為繼承人而有身分身心障礙或無謀生能力受繼承人撫養之情形一律獲得固定比例之特留分而非考量其個案需受撫養之程度及一切相關"},{"start":2881.05,"end":2903.766,"text":"因素決定是缺乏彈性中以上是否能達到修正本條款規定之目的見情再酌以上謝謝謝謝林德鋒委員那接下來下一位我們請羅廷威委員進行提案說明那羅廷威委員進行提案說明之後就是徐宇貞委員請指"},{"start":2909.056,"end":2928.217,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想先請大家思考一個問題如果當一個人已經清楚寫下了遺囑決定他的財產要怎麼留要分給誰我們的法律為什麼要替他來做另外一種的分配這個問題就是今天修法我們要面對的核心"},{"start":2929.378,"end":2949.136,"text":"我們民法第1223條讓兄弟姊妹享有特留份這個制度相信許多委員都一再的強調民國18、19年將近100年前大家族的共居共財的一個背景下所設計的但在現在的社會很明顯就不一樣"},{"start":2950.057,"end":2977.017,"text":"我們看到最近甚至有知名的藝人所留下的深厚是在接受社會輿論的討論我們也看到鄰近國家許多的一些觀點甚至是潛力現在多數的家庭兄弟姊妹各自成家各自生活各自經濟上都是獨立在現在的現實當中也有很多是長年沒有往來的"},{"start":2978.188,"end":3002.847,"text":"但在現行的制度下即使沒有共同的生活沒有撫養關係仍然可以依法主張一定比例的特留份我們在實務上看到通常是很具體的情況簡單來說就是一個人和配偶一起生活了數十年當他要離開的時候他透過遺囑所做的安排卻不一定能夠完整的被實現"},{"start":3004.328,"end":3021.114,"text":"這裡我們要談的已經不是怎麼分配財產而是我們的法律制度沒有真正尊重一個人對自己的人生所做的最後決定也就是被繼承人的意思能夠自治能不能真正被落實"},{"start":3022.054,"end":3047.004,"text":"同時我也想特別說明本次的說法並非剝奪兄弟姊妹的繼承權在沒有遺族的情況下兄弟姊妹仍然可以依現行法定繼承順序來繼承遺產法律不只是分配財產更重要的是是理解並且尊重我們的國人每一個人的選擇"},{"start":3048.434,"end":3064.807,"text":"當一個人已經透過遺囑為自己人生做最後的安排我們應該讓這份心意能夠好好的被完成財產要留給誰是親情的選擇是人生的安排法律的角色不應該讓遺憾"},{"start":3068.34,"end":3093.845,"text":"讓他變成真正完成他的遺願才是我們應該要做的以上我也懇請朝野所有的立委以及我們現在的主管機關能夠一起來支持好 謝謝那接下來我們請徐宇貞委員進行提案說明徐委員之後我們就請林建勤委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3104.881,"end":3121.566,"text":"主席各位同仁本席今日提出民法第1223條的條文修正草案就是刪除我國現行民法兄弟姊妹特留分的規定兄弟姊妹特留分是在民國19年所制定當時的社會背景是家族共同體"},{"start":3122.426,"end":3142.535,"text":"兄弟姊妹間不僅血濃於水經濟上也高度的互相依存然而將近一個世紀過去台灣已經步入核心家庭少子化的社會當年的法律設計顯然已經跟不上現代社會的腳步不同以往現代社會中家庭資源大都集中在父母跟子女即是親屬之間"},{"start":3143.695,"end":3167.234,"text":"兄弟姐妹成年後也多半各自獨立組成家庭彼此間的經濟依賴極低現行法律強制撥出財產給兄弟姐妹往往違反被繼承人的真實意願實務上我們常看到被繼承人與兄弟姐妹長期疏離其實已經甚至早已互不往來但因受限於特留份的規定被繼承人"},{"start":3167.854,"end":3190.185,"text":"即便遇利已主也無法完整的處分遺產導致繼承發生時徵送平仁反而撕裂了家族的情感對此本席參考國際立法的趨勢包括德國、日本、法國等先進國家雖然仍保留有特留份的制度但其保障的對象大都限於配偶與直系血親"},{"start":3190.885,"end":3215.984,"text":"兄弟姐妹也多半早已排除在特留份之外韓國甚至宣布違憲所以台灣若要落實財產處分自由就必須要檢討現行的法規因此本席提議刪除民法第1223條第4款即刪除兄弟姐妹之特留份為其因紀份三分之一之規定讓特留份的保障回歸到最需要照顧的直系親屬與配偶"},{"start":3217.645,"end":3243.448,"text":"各位同仁,此次的修法并非否定亲情而是尊重个人对财产的处分权让民众在人生的最后一里路能够依照自己的意志将资源留给最亲近或者最需要照顾的人而非受限于百年前的陈旧教条希望能够做到落实遗嘱自由并维护继承公民以上恳请各位同仁支持,谢谢"},{"start":3246.101,"end":3248.926,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員那接下來我們請林慶琪委員發言"},{"start":3262.697,"end":3288.319,"text":"主席福惠同仁還有媒體朋友大家好今天本席針對民法第1223條特留份制度來提出修正主要的目的是在於回應當前家庭結構的一個變遷也是在落實遺主自由與財產處分自主的一個原則那麼現在的特留份制度原本是為了保障近親屬的一個基本權"},{"start":3289.8,"end":3317.506,"text":"繼承的一個權益然而呢隨著社會的一個發展我國的家庭形態已經由傳統大家庭轉為以核心家庭為主那麼兄弟姐妹多於成年之後各自獨立生活那與被繼承人的經濟依附跟日常互動的顯然其實減少很多那麼在此情形下呢如果能保留兄弟姐妹之特留份很難符合制度的一個原始設計目的"},{"start":3318.826,"end":3347.37,"text":"那實務上呢也常常見到旁系親屬在關係疏遠甚至長期沒有往來的情況下能依法主張特留份進而引發了繼承的一個徵送那這一類的案件呢不僅削弱了遺囑安排的完等性也造成家族衝突與司法資源的一個負擔那麼顯示現行的制度有檢討的必要那麼比較法上包括德國日本等國特留份"},{"start":3347.97,"end":3373.872,"text":"都限於配偶及直系血親並不急於兄弟姊妹那麼我國在現行的一個規範之下比較看起來這樣化那沒有辦法來反映現代社會的一個實際狀況因此本次修法的重點在於刪除兄弟姊妹之特留份規定那麼使特留份制度回歸保障與被繼承人具有高度撫養關係之生活連結之盡清楚"},{"start":3376.074,"end":3405.318,"text":"同时强化遗嘱自由与财产自由分配之正当性并有助于减少不必要之继承争议那么以上的报告呢那敬请各位委员及相关的单位来支持本案的这个修法以上谢谢好谢谢林委员那么就提案说明就进行到此那本次议程有排定讨论事项两案分别为民法第1223条条文修正草案"},{"start":3405.845,"end":3418.357,"text":"還有審查民法繼承偏施行法增訂第12條的條文草案那麼接下來我們就先進行機關代表報告每位發言時間也是三分鐘為限那麼我們首先先請法務部的鄭次長報告對不起 是黃政務次長 對不起"},{"start":3426.969,"end":3445.432,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天奉邀列席各位委員會請代表本部說明並備詢說明如下有關兄弟姊妹特留分的議題本部於去年為請學者完成的檢討修正民法繼承編的研究後目前正參酌整個研究的成果"},{"start":3446.133,"end":3470.03,"text":"還有這個併同105年民法修正編的相關草案目前已經邀集相關的學者專家成立本部的民法計程編研修小組現在正在進行修法的推動工作有關於兄弟姊妹特留份這個議題依照這個研究成果的建議以及參考外國的立法例以橫著各方權益及檢視相關的配套"},{"start":3471.251,"end":3488.702,"text":"例如是否採外國立法律的貢獻分的制度以及對於這個遺產著給的部分如何的在衡著最佳的修正模式來符合不同個案的狀況跟公平性"},{"start":3489.542,"end":3507.505,"text":"那接下來就各委員的修正意見本部基本上是這個有關於刪除兄弟姊妹特留份的立法方向本部是贊成的但為求法制的完善人應該就相關的配套及修正條文提供以下的意見第一個有關於"},{"start":3508.306,"end":3522.771,"text":"完全的刪除這個兄弟姊妹特留份的部分呢那建議是不是採個案這個狀況呢要有相關的配套較為周全第二個是刪除兄弟姊妹及祖父母特留份的部分那"},{"start":3523.531,"end":3543.363,"text":"參考外國的立法例現在關於祖父母的特留份外國還是有保留特留份的規定而且個案上祖父母去繼承的狀況實際上是非常少數目前社會還沒有就這部分形成共識是否有祖父母的部分的特留份也刪除的必要見請歸案再酌"},{"start":3545.444,"end":3566.872,"text":"另外有關於修正兄弟姊妹特留份的增加前提要件的部分這部分人請大院審酌因為為什麼只有兄弟姊妹要設特別的要件來規範而且為什麼一律給或者是給固定的比例完全沒有彈性空間這個是否可以達到修法的目的人請再酌"},{"start":3568.092,"end":3590.304,"text":"另外有關於這個民法計程編施行法的部分事實上我們民法計程編施行法第一條就有關於這個不說既往的相關規定是否有再增訂的必要議請再酌那最後有關於兄弟姊妹退後份的相關議題本部目前正召集相關的修法會議研修當中建議廣納各界的意見並同相關的配套審議以為周妥"},{"start":3592.105,"end":3611.529,"text":"那如果大院最後的決定仍要刪除這個兄弟姊妹特留份本部人尊重大院審議結果也會適時的提供相關的法制意見 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 那麼其餘的列席機關除了書面內容外 還沒有要進行狗頭報告的"},{"start":3612.847,"end":3641.222,"text":"好 那因為時間關係我想就是其他的機關的書面報告我們就列為公報記錄那現在我們就進行開我們現在開始進行詢答那考量今天詢答之後還會進行法案的審查所以我們就請本會的委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時候可以延長2分鐘非本會的委員詢答時間為4分鐘並且不再延長那麼上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們首先先請登記第一位的吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":3647.404,"end":3652.176,"text":"謝謝主席那我們麻煩次長還有我們麻煩中廳長麻煩次長還有中廳長"},{"start":3657.76,"end":3685.823,"text":"兩位早安 辛苦了次長 我在討論這個遺產分配的修法之前我想先要討論一下檢察官一個很重要的相驗也就是驗屍工作那制度上面有一些必須改善那因為這個跟我們今天要討論的這個遺產分配能不能夠尊重其實都是一個相似的目標就是法務部到底有沒有站在人民最痛苦的時刻去思考我們制度該怎麼做"},{"start":3686.604,"end":3706.359,"text":"那我先講相驗這個部分就驗屍這個部分因為我在宜蘭地方跑的時候遇到很多鄉親其實他們都一直在抱怨法務部同一件事情那也就是說制度上面非病死或以為非病死那我們就要進入司法相驗由檢察官來處理也就是說很多家庭他親人突然離世他都必須面對檢察官來驗屍"},{"start":3708.2,"end":3733.155,"text":"檢察官相驗的工作呢不應該只是查明死因而已他必須還要思考的就是在家屬最痛苦的時刻他感受到政府的制度是冷漠還是政府的制度是溫暖但是現代時務的運作可能會讓民眾感覺到是很折磨啦那我想請教次長 次長你知不知道26年前我第一次參加相驗或解剖是誰帶我去的 次長知道嗎"},{"start":3735.055,"end":3755.704,"text":"就就次長 次長是我的老師嘛所以我第一次 世澳關訓練所世澳關學院他的法醫學只是紙上彈兵我們是看照片看影片但是第一個帶我去實際參與驗屍解剖的是次長您嘛那我記得第一次解剖當時退休楊日松法醫也有在場那我在您在處理這個"},{"start":3757.445,"end":3775.912,"text":"外勤案件的時候我在上面看到的是您對於家屬的尊重以及對於制度的堅持這是我在您身上學習到了但是我現在走訪到地方很多人告訴我常常派出所告訴家屬說下午兩點會議但是甲官到場是下午六點的"},{"start":3776.352,"end":3799.599,"text":"那也有那種他們已經穿好獸衣了結果法醫到場必須拿剪刀把獸衣剪開來驗屍因為我們都知道死亡之後屍體會僵硬所以你要再把獸衣脫下來驗屍是很困難的事所以法醫到場就直接把它剪開結果後來家屬還要去找新的獸衣然後可能還找不到結果整個在那邊一團混亂所以"},{"start":3800.559,"end":3807.389,"text":"我認為說 親人離世 家屬已經很痛苦了司法是不是應該給他最基本的體諒"},{"start":3809.232,"end":3837.88,"text":"我這個部分我希望說對對於這個去驗屍的這個時間叫家屬請他等待的這個時間我們能不能夠去做一個修正家屬不是不能等當然不能被晾在那邊那警察很多時候不敢問檢察官時間所以警察就隨便跟家屬說兩點要去驗結果檢察官因為整個縣市要跑嘛那他必須必須這樣子排著過去的時候可能已經晚了但是這個部分"},{"start":3838.32,"end":3864.864,"text":"是不是可以修正一下這個制度有沒有進到一個基本的告知預估時間或者是基本的同理心我想這個是民眾很在意的所以我想說請次長做的能夠兩個最基本的今天就能做到的是第一個法務部是不是願意函各地檢署就相驗時間通報機制讓排成一出來就能夠把預估到達時間請派出所轉資加速因為"},{"start":3865.984,"end":3891.26,"text":"很多地檢一天的外勤抱怨大概就是四件五件那大的地檢雖然有十幾件但是有外一外二有兩組人嘛所以負擔上面並不會增加很多那第二個就是說法務部是否能夠積極的宣導譬如說統一製作一個香煙注意事項的一夜市說明讓這個家屬跟殯葬業者在香煙前不要先更換獸醫避免說還要再檢調這個問題啦"},{"start":3894.712,"end":3913.452,"text":"這兩個事情都不需要修法而且不需要編預算我們就請書記官大概彙整一下整個路徑然後來請警察通知這部分不知道次長有沒有辦法做跟委員報告相驗的狀況下這個檢察官的同理心這的確屬我們在各個相驗案件我們都做要求的啦"},{"start":3913.832,"end":3939.63,"text":"尤其在相應案的過程當中讓家屬等的在過程當中的確在引起很多的民怨所以事實上現在各地檢署的檢察官他都會請書記官或請司法警察會預先的告知什麼時候會到但是如同這個委員講的他也許有些地檢署只有一班在輪有些地檢署大地檢署兩班在輪他有些碰到一個有些緊急要處理的相應案件他會先處理所以有些案件他會有一些排擠的狀況"},{"start":3941.351,"end":3947.745,"text":"你剛才提到的事實上有些地檢署在我曾經服務過的地檢署我就做過一件事情就是說我要把相驗的時間就上網"},{"start":3950.123,"end":3978.689,"text":"上網排序用編號的方式大概幾點幾時分的時候會驗到你上網家屬就可以透過警察上網去查我大概幾點的時候會排到我相驗這個制度這個制度當然後來各地的地檢組各地的地檢組去落實啦那我剛剛提的這個絕對可以做到要求書記官要求檢察官你什麼時候去要跟人家說明第二點有關一夜市的說明的簡單那個簡子說明事實上現在在各地的地檢組相驗的過程當中尤其我們飯堡"},{"start":3979.389,"end":3993.381,"text":"都會有一些相關的配套措施再給一個一頁式的說明相驗後你要去辦哪些行政措施你要辦哪些手續 電話是什麼我們都把列一張表讓家屬一張表 他一目了然他該做的後續時間他都可以做好 謝謝市長 因為時間關係"},{"start":3995.643,"end":4018.84,"text":"我覺得我還是希望政府能夠愛民如子啊那現在在地方上還有很多人抱怨這個事那表示我們還有修正改進的空間那是如果有相關的東西也是盡量宣導至少民眾不是不能等但是他不能被晾在那因為他們家裡有親人過世其實他們非常的忙非常多事情要做這部分再麻煩您那可不可以兩週內跟警政組確認一下流程然後"},{"start":4020.581,"end":4035.579,"text":"然後告訴我們一下 或是能夠頒布全國地檢署這部分再請次長處理因為我再談一個 日本我看他的實務還有一些研究資料裡面他甚至在討論說 要不要再"},{"start":4036.86,"end":4058.27,"text":"屍檢的就是驗屍的一開始他就雙手合十對那個屍體去做一鞠躬他叫一理的這個動作啦那當然我沒有說要求我們要學習這個制度但是我看到的是當其他國家在進行司法調查這個死亡調查的過程中他們都對於遺體是如此的尊重他們重視一個程序倫理"},{"start":4059.491,"end":4074.421,"text":"既然他們都有這種想法那我們是不是最基本我沒有要求你對屍體要去做這個致敬的動作但是至少我們要同理心能夠了解家屬他們在這個等待漫長等待的這個的辛苦所以這是我今天提出來"},{"start":4074.921,"end":4096.539,"text":"司法不應該只是查明死因司法應該要尊重懂得尊重死者還有體諒死者的家屬公務員必須苦民所苦這部分再麻煩次長那第二個回到今天的重點是特留份的部分我想法務部已經競表同意了啦那應該是不要再拖延啦當然法務部是有提到一個就是"},{"start":4098.108,"end":4123.988,"text":"有關這個特留份這個刪除之後會不會有一些影響一些其他手足的一些生活或一些什麼問題我想特留份制度是民國19年制定的其實跟現在的家庭的制度已經有很大的差距了那法務部其實之前有做過有請學者做過一份報告總共57頁那我們有把它看完了那一份報告可不可以給我們一份"},{"start":4125.748,"end":4148.937,"text":"那謝謝麻煩就是本週內給我們想要了解一下這個研究報告的結果是什麼那我那個研究報告其實他確實也是我知道他的結論是有明確有把這個修正特留份列為是一個重點修法項目的建議所以這部分麻煩市長能夠給我一份所以我想我今天講的一個核心三件事情"},{"start":4150.086,"end":4170.313,"text":"回歸遺族自由第二個 尊重被禁止人的遺願第三個 讓制度更貼近實質照顧跟陪伴的關係我知道你們有提了一個貢獻份對不對市長院簡單回答 貢獻份需不需要我國的這個佐給遺產請求權需不需要有特殊的親屬關係"},{"start":4174.137,"end":4198.653,"text":"報告委員 昨天受撫養之人 生前受撫養之人不需要你們這次法務部有提到貢獻份那司法院你們的報告有提到啦但是這個貢獻份其實它的重點在哪裡我先跟你們報告它重點並不是在談這個什麼血緣關係啦或是什麼它不是在這個 它的重點是在於實質照顧"},{"start":4200.635,"end":4209.569,"text":"這個部分是在談這個 但是這個東西不就跟我們的多給一餐請求權的制度其實是類似的嗎所以刪除特留份跟"},{"start":4210.717,"end":4238.978,"text":"建立貢獻份制度其實這兩個沒有矛盾我必須跟法務部報告一下這兩個根本就不矛盾這貢獻份的重點不是在血緣而是在實質照顧所以不管你有沒有血緣你有實質照顧的話其實我們的佐給遺產請求權跟日本的這貢獻份制度其實是類似的這個不能拿來當作說我到底要不要刪除這個特留份當作是這個理由啦所以我在這邊跟法務部報告這個狀況"},{"start":4240.4,"end":4242.694,"text":"那那個 我想我們就是"},{"start":4245.094,"end":4272.27,"text":"1149條有著卓格伊丹請求權這部分其實法務部也能夠列入參考一下好嗎好那那個我想我還提一個我跟主席報告就是施行法第12條那個部分因為那個是比較技術性的規範那個我不堅持因為我看法務部跟司法院沒有討論這一塊那其實我們回歸到不溯及記網原則也是可以用所以今天我們在討論法案的時候那個施行法12條我就不堅持好那不好意思最後30秒就是"},{"start":4274.231,"end":4292.529,"text":"市長我今天問了兩件事一個是鄉縣程序的辨明跟尊重然後一個是兄弟姊妹特留份的修法還有最近我覺得是拖延了表面上一個是檢查實務一個是民法繼承但本質上都是問同一件事就是法務部到底有沒有站在人民最痛苦的那一刻去設計制度所以"},{"start":4294.175,"end":4323.079,"text":"回答三個問題法務部願不願意在兩週內就是建立香煙制度通報機制避免家屬空等然後統一製作這個香煙注意事項等等例如避免這個收益被解開這事情可不可以好謝謝那法務部在那個今天報告說對於特留份的部分你們是競表贊同那今天可不可以支持我們這個刪除特留份的部分送出委員會各位報告這個刪除是贊成但是要有配套"},{"start":4323.399,"end":4340.518,"text":"那我跟委員報告 剛才講的遺產桌給請求錢 因為貢獻份基本上不太一樣遺產請求錢它是一個消極面 我是被這個被記者人撫養然後貢獻份是我撫養對 但是在特留份的部分我是講特留份 但我知道它兩個本質不太一樣但是在特留份刪除這一塊 它是能夠補足"},{"start":4341.739,"end":4357.333,"text":"這個空缺的然後法務部不要再用嚴議中來去拖延這個部分我想重點自己的財產法律應該尊重他的遺願親人離世希望司法給予他們最基本的體諒好 謝謝兩位"},{"start":4359.254,"end":4374.804,"text":"謝謝吳委員那剛剛吳委員有說希望就是說你們可以把研議報告送給吳委員一份我也希望說能夠給我們法治委員會的每一位委員都有一份好麻煩了好那接下來我們請陳昭志委員進行詢答謝謝謝謝主席麻煩次長好請次長"},{"start":4385.865,"end":4403.901,"text":"我也好好 次長早次長我先跟您確定一個法律問題根據我現在的民法其實在某一定條件下兄弟姊妹之間確實負有撫養義務就是說目前是這樣子但是因為台灣的目前社會基應該已經實際上很難看到這樣子一個例子所以在這個"},{"start":4404.842,"end":4422.751,"text":"這樣的事實下在這個目前的制度卻給予這個兄弟姊妹當然發生的特留份權利當然發生的所以您覺得這個的確是一個比例失衡嗎市長您的觀點是比例失衡嗎請簡單回答對那本部也說了在報告說了本部對刪除特留份的立場方向基本上贊成"},{"start":4423.251,"end":4428.315,"text":"他雖然有一定服養的這個 有服養的 一定條件下服養義務但是相對權力 但是又很少這樣執行嘛好 謝謝次長 次長我們法院有很多兄弟姊妹因為要爭這個特留份的那個訴訟 爭議而發生的訴訟案件坦白說看了很難過的 這是發生家屬之間我在司法院判決書系統上輸入特留份還有兄弟姊妹的關鍵字來搜尋"},{"start":4446.631,"end":4452.473,"text":"這個案子非常的多我先簡單舉一個例子被繼承人蔡先生他過去他生前未結婚然後他也沒有小孩爸爸媽媽又很早離世所以他的遺產繼承理論上是由他的兄弟姊妹來繼承繼承開始後他大哥跟小妹才發現因為蔡先生把遺產全部一證給二哥的兩個小孩子因為這兩個小孩子是生前真正照顧他的人"},{"start":4471.44,"end":4494.897,"text":"所以這個蔡先生大哥跟小妹竟然就對兩個舉止提出了這個告上的法院我必須說這個兄弟姊妹甚至是儲值或是這個孤子之間的特留分比率正義提高結果會是什麼呢大概我們看到就是多年長期的一個訴訟那大概整個家庭或家屬關係大概就破裂了所以特留分幾乎成了一個徵產工具"},{"start":4496.698,"end":4518.835,"text":"所以請問這樣的導致這個家庭破裂這個家族關係的制度 破碎的制度所以法務部您還會再堅持嗎 法務部會再堅持嗎各位報告 法務部刪除兄弟妹的特留份 法務部沒有堅持那我們來看一下比較法 日本在2018年修法之前是跟台灣幾乎一樣那有兄弟姊妹這個特留份的制度可以行使扣減權"},{"start":4520.276,"end":4548.997,"text":"到2019現行法實施後刪除了這個部分因為日本認為現代的關係現在家庭結構已經變化了而且這個兄弟姊妹的關係撫養關係也被弱化了那為了減少這個繼承糾紛而且很重要尊重被繼承人的一個意思所以做出了修正那我們看德國德國民法典也就是BGB當初在設計時就沒有採用法國的一個強制繼承的形態所以BGB2303條就沒有規定兄弟姊妹的特留份因為德國民法"},{"start":4550.018,"end":4569.495,"text":"認為兄弟姊妹不屬於撫養共同體核心強調個人財產自由也就是以主自由為先這樣的概念但是德國跟日本他並沒有完全這個否定所屬之間的輔助觀念和互相輔助的觀念而是說不把這個關係提升到"},{"start":4570.336,"end":4597.877,"text":"分財產的這樣的一個強度所以請教次長之前其實在司法委員會的公聽會當中法務部有表示說會採行現在日本的現行法已經修過的這個現行法去研擬但是您剛剛是沒有特別提到那我想知道說你剛剛也說了現在正在就是專家在研擬這樣的一個內容我想知道進度次長我想要知道這個進度你什麼時候要送出來今天有這麼多委員提出版本了我們在等咧在等願版咧"},{"start":4599.478,"end":4616.353,"text":"各位報告我剛也提到就是說我們的委託研究案去年已經完成了嘛那我們事實上我們在今年已經召開這個計程片的修法交通我想知道您預期的進度總量的預期進度我們現在進度我們已經開過一次會準備要開第二次會我們希望能不能夠在這個會期結束之前把法案預告"},{"start":4616.974,"end":4619.676,"text":"那今天這麼多委員提出的版本呢這個次長我要強調就是說目前民法中目前還有的兄弟姊妹的撫養義務其實是一種補充性的一個撫養義務在現實中往往生活上是不存在的所以不應該轉化為全面性的分產權利退留份制度應該是回到保障依附關係而不是擴張財產的請求權"},{"start":4640.612,"end":4643.374,"text":"那撫養義務的存在但不足以正當化特留份如果法務認為你們會擔心就是過去有必要性避免弱勢的兄弟姊妹生活困難那應該透過撫養制度啊而不是用直接分財產這個做法來做那社長你們今天版本到現在都送不出來那這邊有這麼多的"},{"start":4661.468,"end":4681.457,"text":"版本刪除其實很快 刪除就刪除而已我們現在是講 你想著給請求權今天有這麼多版本 我們乾脆就就其中討論 取出一個我們共同的版本我們是說要不要有其他配套 刪除我們也不反對要不要其他配套那其他委員已經有提出相對的這些版本沒有 其他委員是沒有其他的配套我們其實要趕快讓制度進步 接回國際不要讓台灣再投在一百年前"},{"start":4687.48,"end":4712.597,"text":"請問檢察官可以用不確定因素的某時地來定罪嗎?對於檢察官起訴人員遭到外界質疑例如2018年三中案經台北地檢署起訴當年的北檢檢察長邢太昭建議未來北院審理的過程全程開放直播面對外界質疑邢太昭甚至說他希望將錄音全部公布讓全民來檢視北檢是不是如外界所說的羅織"},{"start":4714.378,"end":4730.588,"text":"如果被告們願意簽據同意書那北院願意公開錄音證據請問次長您是否同意檢察總長邢太昭的當時的政策建議您是否同意請簡單回答委員你提到的是法庭直播的公開的錄音公佈嗎我是指剛剛我已經跟您說明邢太昭當這個北檢檢察長的時候他提出來的這個說法"},{"start":4737.315,"end":4759.617,"text":"他現在已經當然是申任總長了但是我知道這幾年我沒有看到他在法務部內外有類似的主張但是他當時確實提出了法庭全程直播甚至把錄音全部公開那我想您的意見 法務部的意見現在市長法院組織法已經就法庭直播的部分已經有法律明文規定 相關的公開播送的規定"},{"start":4760.881,"end":4788.002,"text":"但是法庭直播法你們沒有你們實施的辦法根本沒有依照這個立法的精神去執行現在的問題很多破綻很多那個是司法院所按照法院組織法所定的相關的辦法所以我想要知道法務部對於法庭全權直播這樣的母法已經在幾個月前已經確認你們的看法跟立場母法已經有了當然我們都要依法行政只是執法怎麼規範我們要尊重主管機關司法院現在就出很多問題了對那是主管機關司法院他定的執法的問題"},{"start":4788.883,"end":4811.033,"text":"那我們會往遵循 完全遵循母法立法的精神方向走嗎當然啊 當然法律已經定在那裡 我們就要依法行政啦好 今天時間有限啦我們會有一些沒有遵循母法的做法有很多的 我們再來繼續溝通協調好 謝謝市長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員那是不是可以請林切子委員先代替委員長解釋"},{"start":4826.836,"end":4836.001,"text":"我們現在請歐小瑩到位謝謝主席 首先有請黃次長也請中廳長好了好 那"},{"start":4849.486,"end":4868.451,"text":"首先我想跟次長這邊做個意見的交流因為事實上這次我們立法院很多的委員都提出要刪除兄弟姊妹的特留份這樣的規定那麼本席在這裡其實跟法務部還有也看了"},{"start":4869.291,"end":4891.408,"text":"司法院所提出的報告基本上就是你們在方向上面政策方向上面是支持可以刪除兄弟姐妹的特留份的規定那當然部長剛剛也一再的強調就希望能夠有配套措施那但是呢事實上就是法務部也已經進行研議了多年了其實這個已經也不算是說是"},{"start":4892.648,"end":4919.083,"text":"這個第一次演繹在更早之前當時法務部也曾經有多年前也曾經有提出過相關的版本那為什麼到現在為止還沒有辦法確定說如果你們要提出配套措施的話那這個配套措施是什麼因為我們今天的看起來我們法案會繼續的往前推進那麼如果說是這個配套措施是可以和今天我們所要刪除的特留份兄弟姊妹特留份的規定"},{"start":4920.544,"end":4938.36,"text":"脫鉤的話那我覺得基本上也不會妨礙整個今天的法案的審查各位報告我們105年提到大院的有關特留份的版本兄弟姐妹的部分其實不是完全刪除只是降低他特留份的比例現在限定規定是三分之一當時是把它降到四分之一"},{"start":4939.301,"end":4959.856,"text":"更低 降低比例之後兄弟姐妹還是保有一點點的特留份所以基本上不會有遺產著給請求權或者是貢獻份這個問題產生現在修法的方向是整個拿掉了整個拿掉之後就會產生這些兄弟姐妹我們要不要給他遺產著給要不要給他貢獻份的問題就會產生所以才說這個部分才要演繹配套的理由在這裡"},{"start":4960.6,"end":4965.781,"text":"是但是如果說按照就是剛剛次長這邊講的有關於遺產民法1149條的這個遺產酌給請求權的就是114條的規定的話其實這裡講的被繼承人生前繼續撫養之人這撫養之人不見得是指的他是法定繼承人嘛他可能是非法定繼承人如果說是法定繼承人的話那麼他也許就是就看他那個狀況對不對他有可能是"},{"start":4990.247,"end":5000.791,"text":"具有可以去請求法去請求特留份的就叫請求權的人或是他沒有特留份請求權的這個人所以在實際上你可不可以告訴我們類似會像你們所講的可能會涉及到之後會衍生有民法1149條的"},{"start":5013.537,"end":5030.208,"text":"遺產著給請求權的例子會是什麼?然後會有很多這樣的個案的發生嗎?跟委員報告這個119的遺產著給請求權從法條裡面看不出來但是我們實務行程的結果最高法院的判決結果認為這遺產著給的對象不包括繼承人"},{"start":5034.15,"end":5060.496,"text":"他的實務產生多年來一個實務上的間諜 不關他繼承人如果這個實務間諜落實的話未來不修法 不特別明定的話實務間諜繼續往下走的話兄弟姊妹他本身就是繼承人他就會被排除在1149的這一個遺產佐給的那個主體了所以為了避免實務產生這個實務間諜多年來的間諜的產生所以我們才希望訂一個法條在兄弟姊妹這種狀況之下明文規定他可以遺產佐給"},{"start":5061.596,"end":5076.311,"text":"要不然我們剝奪他的特留份之後他又不能夠遺產著給但他如果是法定繼承人的話基本上本來就不會有1149條的適用嘛那他就可以就是因此就會有如果他不是他如果他他繼承人他不能適用1149他就不能夠著給了"},{"start":5077.762,"end":5106.112,"text":"他生前是被這個死亡的人撫養的人他沒有特留份之後他又不能夠遺產佐給他就全無了其實他是可以申請的為什麼他不能夠申請就是我剛剛就是說149條對 149我們在實務法院實務的進檢是如此但是之後的話他應該可以有不同的一個解釋嘛但是我們法條對 因為從我們法條裡面來看的話他基本上並沒有排除這個法定繼承人因為我們149沒有如果沒有去修的話"},{"start":5107.152,"end":5118.758,"text":"他又沒有修碼 使用的穩定的見解就會包括不含繼承人好 那如果說是到次長您的見解您所提出來的這樣一個問題的話是不是其實這可以脫鉤處理你們應該是法務部競訴的可以提出1149條的修正"},{"start":5123.601,"end":5141.871,"text":"而不是說我們現在要刪除了這個已經要準備要啟動刪除兄弟姐妹特留份的規定可是你們現在的說法是說因為我們配合措施沒有完成所以呢這刪除兄弟姐妹特留份的規定不能夠向前行但是以本性來看的話這兩件事情不見得是具有直接的相關當然"},{"start":5142.771,"end":5149.973,"text":"不排除您說的有可能有部分少數的案例會發生如果這樣的話是不是應該法務部反而應該要儘速的提出149條的相關規定的修正對所以我們現在很快速的正在處理當中好那麼看起來就是說是這個跟我們今天之後要推動的刪除特留份規定這個沒有說一定要這個"},{"start":5167.177,"end":5181.294,"text":"整個綁在一起我們還是可以分頭的進行還有另外一個部分就是本席也想再繼續請教的就是事實上這次談到特留份制度的改革當然很重要也是跟我們要尊重未來的個人"},{"start":5182.996,"end":5209.908,"text":"財產就遺產的處分的自主權那麼事實上如果說有預歷遺主的話那麼這個才會有涉及到特留份制度的適用但是呢如果說是從2023年8月份公正法學期刊裡面所當時的有這個實證報告裡面來看其實台灣現在我們人民就是會有意願要去訂立預歷遺主的人基本上人數"},{"start":5210.768,"end":5212.49,"text":"大概每年平均大概會有多少件手上應該沒有資料"},{"start":5235.996,"end":5255.795,"text":"遺囑事實上也不只有認證公正遺囑遺囑有五種的遺囑的方式這個數字可能也會失真不精確這個不知道四百萬有沒有這個資料我保護部是沒有今天我們是沒有帶這些資料來但是本席希望你們之後可以給本席一份"},{"start":5256.475,"end":5281.204,"text":"資料就是至少就是近五年來然後這個經過認證還有公證的預歷遺囑的件數比例大概是多少因為我覺得這個基本上也是有意義的其實現在蠻多人都在還有包含就是我認識的司法實務界的律師或是法官們大家都認為說其實有過於遺囑的這套制度也是必須要進行在進步的改革"},{"start":5281.804,"end":5307.836,"text":"那麼所以如果說可以有更詳細的有關於育立遺囑的數據的話可以幫助我們之後有關於就是遺產和繼承的這個相關的規定的這個修正好那麼之後因為我們待會今天尋答之後我們緊接著可能就會進行這個法條的處理那麼有一些涉及到貢獻份或是特別貢獻份的一些問題或許我們待會還可以再討論好那就是以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5311.445,"end":5312.386,"text":"我們接下來請林倩琦委員詢答"},{"start":5332.711,"end":5355.066,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席翁朝偉本席在今天的這個議題當中那第一個部分我們先想請司法院的我們今天是中廳長嗎請中廳長中廳長那麼本席今天要針對你好針對這個司法體系的這個資訊安全跟各自保護的這個問題來跟您做一個討論"},{"start":5357.968,"end":5364.634,"text":"昨天在高院前法官案件一審宣判他在擔任審判長期間有長達兩年多的時間都是運用了公務電腦的一個系統權限來查詢跟審判沒有關的個人資料高達了134筆"},{"start":5375.544,"end":5389.319,"text":"那麼這個查詢的內容包括他的同事房客還有這個配偶的組織醫師等就是相關案例的這個同事們的一些個資那屬於長期反覆性的一個濫用系統權限的行為那本席這邊強調這個案件除了"},{"start":5392.301,"end":5413.412,"text":"他本身操守的一個問題這個法官本身操守的一個問題那最重要就是制度應該在檢視啦這基本上是一個警訊那畢竟現在資訊化的複雜程度已經超過了2010年代那這樣的行為如果持續兩年沒有能夠被及時發現那代表系統在第一個存取控管"},{"start":5413.792,"end":5441.588,"text":"第二個 異常監測跟第三 內部結合上那需要嚴加把關並持續的一個測定那本席在這邊請教那麼第一個部分是目前司法院的一個資訊系統對於法官跟司法人員的權限查詢是不是要採取還繼續採取這個高度信任然後低度監管的一個設計那還是是不是要依照最小權限原則來進行分級的一個控管"},{"start":5442.168,"end":5464.884,"text":"那例如是不是可以只有限制查詢與審案件直接相關的一個資料那第二個部分是針對這類非案件關鍵查詢的行為是不是有即時的異常警示機制例如頻繁的查詢或者是跨案件的查詢或者是無案號的查詢那有沒有自動觸發警示或者是通報"},{"start":5465.805,"end":5495.165,"text":"那最後一個部分是司法院是不是會定期盤點及外部集合的這個機制那頻率跟標準你們怎麼定定那本席在這邊提醒那這種問題在目前AI跟大數據的時代風險只會越來越高那樣態只會越來越複雜那當資料整合的程度越高那一旦權限被濫用那侵害的除了個人隱私還會有整體的一個司法信任那是不是請您這邊給本席做一個回應"},{"start":5496.226,"end":5511.206,"text":"是 向委員報告雖然這樣一個資訊安全的業務不是我掃家廳來直接承辦不過因為今天你代表了司法院是 但我可以做一個必要的報告就是我擔任過"},{"start":5512.928,"end":5527.419,"text":"台灣高雄少年家事法院的院長也有管理這種資訊安全的這種相關的職責我跟委員報告第一個核發權限的部分是非常嚴格的那除了具有法官身份"},{"start":5528.78,"end":5553.575,"text":"其他以外都是指定特定特定人查核給他葬祕這是第一點那麼第二點就是說那法官查核的部分在這些年來已經變更為每個月都有很詳細逐筆由庭長級的以上去一筆一筆核對他的"},{"start":5554.596,"end":5566.37,"text":"陳辦的案號對不對他所查詢的跟內部資料對不對都一筆一筆查詢那所以你覺得這個案例的發生最主要的關鍵就你這個是在過去以前的查核那麼不那麼嚴謹的時候"},{"start":5570.535,"end":5599.093,"text":"那現在第三部來加入了政風室一起下去查核這是我在108年擔任院長之後我們所制定的制度中央落實到地方我也都照這樣來進行所以現在也會有發現說這個證人你查這個資料怎麼跟你本案沒有什麼關係馬上就進入第二部的檢核而且是前線控制以上是我知道的做一個報告"},{"start":5600.189,"end":5628.327,"text":"那所以你覺得目前在這個檢核的跟查核的這個機制上已經相對比較沒有問題如果說我剛剛說明的是完訂定的檢查檢核標準大家都落實我想很快就發現每個月一定是有庭長科長書記館長還加上政風室資訊室下去聯合查核然後都要報到中央去每一筆主筆"},{"start":5629.96,"end":5649.812,"text":"所以你覺得目前如果真正的問題就是說落實程度對不對所以我想司法院我這邊也提醒一下那如何真正的落實有沒有必要做相關的一個更多的這個培訓或者是需不需要做實務上的一個操演那這個是我提供給你去做一個參考好不好謝謝"},{"start":5651.26,"end":5667.936,"text":"好 那接下來本席要可能請到司法院跟法務部我們次長那麼就針對今天我們談的這個廢除兄弟姐妹特留份的一個相關法案那我們在強化遺囑自由的同時那我們整個制度是不是有準備好"},{"start":5669.037,"end":5696.599,"text":"濫用跟犯罪的一個風險那去年台北地方法院判決了一起重大的案件是有關於不肖業者來勾結警察律師公證人書記官戶籍戶證人員及里長那透過偽造代筆的這個遺囑那詐領了11名獨居往生者的遺產那整個不罰所得高達了1.4億元那麼這個案件令社會很震驚不是"},{"start":5697.119,"end":5710.364,"text":"主要也不是只有金額龐大那整個的犯罪結構基本上滲透了整個司法跟行政體系那包括了有公正資格的律師護證人員警察跟書記官都參與其中"},{"start":5713.605,"end":5735.977,"text":"這整體利用了制度授予的查詢跟認證的權限結果變成了犯罪工具那本席在這邊要請教法務部那麼對於地面私犯罪目前有沒有專責的一個查緝的一個機制那這一類的結合不動產、繼承、護證跟司法程序然後還高度跨領域喔那這樣子的一個特性如果我們再用傳統的這個詐欺案件來處理"},{"start":5739.659,"end":5764.607,"text":"還是說我們已經有建立了跨機關整合的一個偵查模式那麼司法院我這邊請教就是說本案顯示司法人員包括書記官竟然還參與了組織性的犯罪因為這已經是最前線了而且並且利用職權來調閱個資那呼應剛才本席所講的那本席非常關心整個司法院的內控機制那對於民眾治安是不是能夠完全的保障"},{"start":5765.387,"end":5790.545,"text":"那另外對於公證人的一個制度那司法院認為現在的一個監督強度是不是夠那所以這個部分是不是可以先就來兩個單位來做一個討論那我也針對這個公證法第51條那司法院作為公證人的一個監督機關那有怎麼樣的因應的一個措施以上是不是兩個機關你們就前後說明好嗎"},{"start":5790.845,"end":5813.558,"text":"各位報告有關於地面式的案件事實上我們各地檢署陸續也發生過幾件地面式的案件因為這地面式的案件我們也是做一些制度性的檢討我們建立了一個地檢署跟相關的戶證、議證的一個聯繫平台就是一個預警機制我們現在預警機制除了銀行的預警機制銀行端行員發現有一些異常他向我們地檢署建立預警機制之外"},{"start":5815.319,"end":5830.912,"text":"對於地面式的案件我們也跟地政跟戶政機關建立了一個前提的預警機制當這些公務員發現有異常的時候他就可以馬上跟地檢署的窗口聯繫他預警平台就會產生運作來及早偵辦及早蒐證來保全證據"},{"start":5835.774,"end":5861.587,"text":"司法院 向委員報告首先有關法院書記官利用這樣一個專門的帳戶去查核資料去做犯罪這個是一個已經很特殊的個案那基本上書記官不會有權限可以用帳密去查這些資料這些資料是經過三層控管才可以那他應該是"},{"start":5862.668,"end":5884.682,"text":"那一件利用植物然後去跟在我們的科長室裡面在我們查核人裡面他怎麼偷用這個事後來開始所以是個案在實務操作上的一個漏洞就對了所以已經把這個漏洞補起來了已經做了很多查核這個都能盡各項都管制這個是很例外的例外因為沒有一個事關有這種查核的權限沒有"},{"start":5887.504,"end":5904.978,"text":"所以至少在制度上目前是你們覺得相對是完整的這當然就是在對岸的一個實務上產生了一些破洞對好那本席就提出來就針對這樣一個組織性可能請兩個單位都要做一些注意是"},{"start":5905.859,"end":5934.778,"text":"好 謝謝那最後這邊一個有關於數位遺產的民法訂定跟法制的一個精進那這邊其實也跟我們的遺產有一點關係所以我先提出來做一個提醒就是數位資產包括社群帳號雲端資料跟加密的一個貨幣會形成數位遺產那麼目前我們對數位遺產的法律定位好像還不明那首先在民法體系上那數位遺產究竟是什麼樣子的權利那是不是一律都可以作為繼承的一個標的那目前有沒有明確的規範"},{"start":5935.959,"end":5964.378,"text":"那麼學界有認為那個財產性質可以類推來適用民法的一個相關規定但是這種類推適用在實務上好像有點不太確定所以本席在這邊請教法務部那法務部對於數位遺產的一個法律性質的有沒有一個明確的見解那還是要透過修法或解釋來將繼承遺產體系當中民文化那麼實務上的障礙是不是也來在網路服務業者也有一些實務上的障礙"},{"start":5966.14,"end":5980.641,"text":"許多的平台在服務的條款上有直接明訂帳號不得轉讓或繼承那即使法律上承認繼承權實務上到底能不能做那法務部是不是要評估這個強制性的一個最低保障機制"},{"start":5981.041,"end":6004.816,"text":"那最後 法律承認即使法律來承認數位遺產的這個繼承但是如果繼承人沒有辦法取得帳號 密碼或者是這個所謂私密的鑰匙那實際上還是不能處分啦那目前的平台已經提供了一個數位遺產聯絡人或者是紀念帳戶的一個管理的機制但是這些零散的措施那有沒有可能在實際上碰到困難"},{"start":6005.757,"end":6013.061,"text":"所以法律部有沒有在思考來推動一個比較制度化的數位遺囑或預立數位資產處理的一個機制讓民眾在生前也可以來確定他遺產的一個處理方式那本席就藉著今天我們在談特留份也把這個問題提出來做個討論那如果因為時間關係那像你們可不可以把在這個部分的一個作為然後跟時程"},{"start":6033.711,"end":6052.762,"text":"會後送個報告讓本席了解好嗎還是你有很簡短的一個補充有關於數位資產的法律定性到底是物還是債權當然這實務上有不同的爭議當然現在現行民法就這部分民法在制定的時候並沒有就數位資產當時有規範到那至於數位資產的性質那未來我們數發部有那個數位一個專法"},{"start":6059.306,"end":6080.073,"text":"它也許會定性它這個數位資產的性質是為何所以您所提到的數位輿組的部分電子輿組的部分那我們剛才提到我們整個計程片都在修正包括翁委員上次也有提到就有關輿組是不是要電子化類似這種輿組的這個立輿組的方式現行的五種輿組方式要不要創立第六種這都可以未來都會在修法中會再來討論的"},{"start":6081.173,"end":6102.446,"text":"好的謝謝法務部那司法院是不是如果有沒有要及時回應的那如果沒有就會後的一個相關報告我想對這部分的話可以做一個研究報告也希望你們在這個會期結束之前可以先至少提個你們的大概的政策方向然後讓我們委員會這邊知道好嗎好好謝謝謝謝林委員好那接下來我們請林培祥委員發言"},{"start":6121.584,"end":6137.674,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先我想請教內政部請內政部專委張專委你好"},{"start":6140.308,"end":6157.336,"text":"內政部長期掌握台灣最真實的人口跟家庭結構數據那單身人口持續上升頂客族成為常態少子化跟高齡化同時發生家庭的樣貌早已經不再是過去這種所謂大家族共同生活的形態"},{"start":6157.996,"end":6183.075,"text":"我想這應該不只是說我們全民都有感覺到或甚至講全民共識那內政部應該比我們更清楚這樣的樣貌那我就想請問內政部在你們所掌握的這些趨勢之下現行兄弟姊妹仍享有特留份的制度設計還真的符合今天台灣的社會現實嗎當一個人一生努力累積的財產"},{"start":6183.715,"end":6205.603,"text":"在身後卻未必能完全依照他的意志來去做分配這樣的制度是否能符合現代社會對於財產自主跟遺主自由的期待呢內政部應該是擁有最完整的真實數據但我要誠懇的是說政策不能一天到晚只留在描述現實必須要回應現實"},{"start":6206.923,"end":6224.157,"text":"所以我要在這邊進一步先請教內政部內政部是否願意將這些結構變遷轉化成修法的明確立場還是說內政部還是單純的把這個數據只是留在所謂的統計報告而不願意跨出所謂政策表態的那一步呢"},{"start":6226.893,"end":6253.838,"text":"如果是針對嫂子的話還有兄弟姊妹這個部分因為我代表地政司啦那這個戶政司的資料就是說如果有需要這些比較統計數據可能要會後再請戶政司那邊提供那至於今天本案針對兄弟姊妹這個特留份的部分因為內政部如果針對不動產登記的部分我們是依循民法的規定所以今天討論的結果其實我們就會支持法務部的政策跟大院的立場這樣"},{"start":6254.858,"end":6259.822,"text":"好 那謝謝政委 政委請回再來就有請法務部 我們請黃次長麻煩了好 請黃次長"},{"start":6263.227,"end":6291.376,"text":"委員好市長好上上個禮拜我在委員會已經詢問過這個問題了當時部長的回應是繼承偏修法牽涉範圍很大需要整體檢討那這句話老實講聽起來很周全也很謹慎但是我也要很坦白的說與時俱進很重要如果沒有具體時程我那時候問說這個會期有沒有機會他說我們努力看看那時候我第一我記得第一時間部長的回應說今年"},{"start":6292.256,"end":6317.807,"text":"那我會認為說這個可能會不會對於說有這方面困擾的民眾可能這已經不會是少數是否有點可惜啦如果沒有具體時程這樣的說法很容易變成改革停滯的理由因為社會在變如果法律一直還停在總體檢討那就不是審慎而是落後今天我要特地很清楚的指出兄弟姊妹特留份是一個可以單獨處理的議題"},{"start":6319.588,"end":6345.673,"text":"他並不然一定要綁在整部繼承篇的全體修正之下更不應該因為整體工程浩大而讓已經具備社會討論基礎的議題被無限延後所以我在這裡具體來就教法務部是否願意將兄弟姊妹特留份單獨抽離優先提出修法版本第二是否已經還是一樣期程期程期程是否已經有明確的時程規劃還是"},{"start":6348.214,"end":6362.903,"text":"我們還是在原則性的討論當中好 各位報告我們可以在這邊明確的說我們就這個計程片其實要修正法條非常多我們整個立法的政策方向就是兄弟姐妹特留份的部分我們單獨把它抽離出來單獨的完整修法"},{"start":6363.323,"end":6378.762,"text":"只是這個修法要不要相關的配套措施這要再研議那只是說立法期程的部分我剛才跟委員報告了我們在四月的中旬即將召開第二次的專家會議我們希望能夠在這個會期結束之前就把法案預告"},{"start":6381.528,"end":6394.095,"text":"謝謝我們次長明確的回答老實說這個議題社會上已經討論非常久了而人民在意的核心也非常簡單我一生所努力得到的財產能不能由我自己來決定"},{"start":6395.916,"end":6413.342,"text":"但很可惜我們在政策回應上面我們常常出現一個問題我們不斷強調制度的複雜性卻沒有直接回應改革的具體進度這樣的回應其實是失焦的人民要的不是再多一份研究報告人民要的是一個清楚的方向跟一個可預成的時期"},{"start":6414.142,"end":6438.212,"text":"那今天我用最後一句話來作為今天整個質詢最後的話語法律的價值不在於它曾經有多完整而是在於它是否能持續回應時代的變遷兄弟姊妹特留份制度是過去設定特定社會結構下的產物但今天的台灣我們已經走到一個需要重新思考個人意志跟家庭關係界限的階段"},{"start":6438.812,"end":6463.5,"text":"因此我在這邊要很明確的呼籲請法務部跟內政部就算內政部今天有關的相關的官員沒有來不過內政部在這邊其實很重要因為整個社會形態的數據跟真實的樣貌內政部在掌握請法務部跟內政部不要再以整體修法作為延宕的理由拿出與時俱進的勇氣回應社會已經形成的共識謝謝"},{"start":6465.592,"end":6480.059,"text":"更為報告其實我們一再強調法國不是支持三族兄弟姊妹特留份只是要有一兩條的配套而已好我們一起努力謝謝好謝謝林沛翔委員那麼接下來我們就有請沈發慧委員詢答好主席我們請次長"},{"start":6495.527,"end":6521.74,"text":"有請次長我也好次長好我想說早上到現在的整個詢問過程大概其實整個我們有關於這個這個繼承的這個特留份制度兄弟姊妹的部分的討論其實大概我覺得釐清的差不多了那這部分我就想說利用短短時間來大家做一個整理以利於"},{"start":6522.64,"end":6536.892,"text":"如果今天要進入主條討論的話最後的立法結果我想這部分來做溝通剛剛很多委員都提到其實這個特留份的制度設計本來現代民法的精神本來就是"},{"start":6540.114,"end":6557.747,"text":"私有財產權神聖不可侵犯是私有財產所以遺主自由原本是我的財產我死後才要怎麼分配是我遺主自由我個人意志的展現但是就是因為基於他有一些這個這個有關於這個繼承人一些基本的權益"},{"start":6558.627,"end":6570.697,"text":"或者是這個至少享有一定成立的程度的保障生活保障的情況之下他設計了一個橫貧制度在遺產自由跟這個跟這個繼承人基本權益之間的一個橫貧特留分設計本來就是這樣子"},{"start":6573.559,"end":6597.751,"text":"那當初我們所謂特留份哪些人會有特留份他其實跟這個這個第114條的這個撫養義務其實他是有關聯的就是說你在親屬片裡面你父有撫養義務所以因為這個所謂特留份他就有一種所謂死後撫養的這種性質就死後死後撫養性質所以大家會互付"},{"start":6599.279,"end":6616.199,"text":"互付撫養義務我生前有對你有撫養義務那你死後我有這個死後的撫養大概這樣的精神那現在所以過去的立法裡面會這樣子立法他就是因為這樣那當然剛剛前面我也提到就是你現在是一個社會"},{"start":6617.02,"end":6644.108,"text":"形態的改變所以在當初早期的立法其實不只是我們台灣的這個民法其實所有很多大陸法系的國家都有這種兄弟姊妹特留份的設計但是因為家庭形態改變導致現在產生一大堆很多的這個諸多的這種案例引起社會的非議就是說可能平常兄弟姊妹也沒有在互相撫養那也沒有甚至根本就沒有聯繫那影響再加上這個"},{"start":6645.268,"end":6652.001,"text":"現在少子化的這個家庭這個家庭結構的變遷甚至很多就沒有子女的他們這些所謂高齡配偶"},{"start":6653.748,"end":6681.936,"text":"的這個生活保障他卻受到完全互不相似的互不往來的這個這個被繼承人的兄弟姊妹來要求這個影響到他的居住權等等相關的這樣子的配套問題所以今天才有這樣討論那我看今天有這麼多的草案其實這個我們過去其實105年我們105年的時候我們有法務部有提過一個整個這個特留份的整個調整的修正草案"},{"start":6682.876,"end":6698.364,"text":"那時候的修正草案其實不只是兄弟姊妹其實連配偶你們整個都有做這個比例的調整下降了把特留份的比例做下降這是當年的這個修法的精神但是因為你那個當年的修法牽涉到配偶的這個"},{"start":6700.186,"end":6713.444,"text":"這個特留份的降低這也引起了這個社會這個婦女團體的一些疑慮那在這樣的爭議之下所以當年就在屆期不連續的情況之下就擱置了你們也沒有再提了"},{"start":6715.23,"end":6729.054,"text":"那今天我看到這樣看起來我算是二十案併成這個二十個都是委員提案沒有法務部的版本那二十案併成裡面我們今天就要針對這個二十個委員的提案來進行這個逐條討論要經過完成修法程序"},{"start":6734.83,"end":6762.32,"text":"這樣子我就看一下這20案其實這20案並不是都一樣的其實裡面是有差別的各個委員的提案不太一樣最多的最單純的就是直接就把兄弟姊妹的特留份刪除了這個我看是最多委員提案就是直接刪除看起來很單純那這個另外一種形態他是這個也有委員的提案他除了兄弟姊妹刪除以外祖父母也給他刪除了也有這樣子的提案"},{"start":6764.577,"end":6786.426,"text":"另外還有提案是把放進日本人的貢獻份的概念就是把限縮兄弟姊妹特留份的增加一些要件增加他的謀生能力還有他是不是有撫養事實這樣子的增加這些要件這也是一種修法"},{"start":6786.966,"end":6800.238,"text":"再加上我們法務部105年的版本這個是直接降低比例簡單講就是針對兄弟姊妹特留份的調整大概就這四個方向都有法案在"},{"start":6804.508,"end":6831.198,"text":"所以我們如果進入逐條我們就會針對這些法案剛才我們所有法務部的回答都是講說你們其實有在檢討你們也已經有委託學者研究研究報告也已經完成了你們依據這個研究報告現在在召開這個修法的研議會議已經召開了一次對不對那你們希望說召開幾次之後把這個完整的整體的這個版本你們一直強調配套措施"},{"start":6832.378,"end":6851.749,"text":"那大家我想今天如果說要不要在委員會裡面把這個就依照這20個這個修正法案我們就直接通過我想最關鍵的就是你們所謂的配套到底重不重要到底這配套是整套一起修比較好還是說我們今天就單獨這個先刪除了配套你們以後再來這大概就今天大概就只有這兩種選擇這兩種選擇"},{"start":6854.403,"end":6880.75,"text":"那這個所以我們就應該要來看說是整個你們所謂的配套到底有哪一些有哪一些配套這部分是不是要請市長你剛剛因為這個東扯一點西扯一點有講到貢獻份有講到這個這個這個撫養義務有講到甚至講到這個這個這個遺產的這個佐給的制度這些你是不是稍微簡短但是完整的提到有哪些配套你們要做"},{"start":6881.73,"end":6892.037,"text":"更為報告一旦全部刪除了兄弟姊妹的特留份之後呢那兄弟姊妹萬一他生前這個兄弟姊妹他消極的被撫養"},{"start":6894.098,"end":6906.763,"text":"這時候要不要給他一些遺產著給消極的被撫養第二狀況他是積極的撫養這個被繼承人他有貢獻他對財產的增加對被害的這個被繼承人有貢獻這要不要給他貢獻份從消極面積極面未來整個一個貢獻份一個就是這個著給遺產著給這兩個嘛你們提到這兩個配套"},{"start":6920.109,"end":6940.427,"text":"另外有一個剛才大家沒有提到就是我剛才有稍微提到就是在日本的修法日本在2019年修法他們特別針對現在的這個社會形態少子化高齡者居住的形態他們特別設計了這個所謂配合居住權的保障設計"},{"start":6941.668,"end":6959.215,"text":"這樣的配偶居住權保障設計我覺得如果說配偶如果說配套我認為說這應該要放在配套裡面來一起一併檢討一併修法啦就是不要說到現在的狀況就是老夫老妻兩個人住結果配偶"},{"start":6960.225,"end":6975.839,"text":"死亡被繼承那我只有這個房子住但是因為這個特留份我就要來分配這個我可能所有財產只有這棟房子就要來分配這棟房子的所有權導致我整個他連居住的地方都沒有或者甚至如果繼續繼續居住要幾戶"},{"start":6978.861,"end":7006.018,"text":"給付這個不當得利的這些金錢所以為了解決這個問題日本才有這樣子的所謂配偶保障配偶居住權的這個這個部分我們在現在的研擬裡面有沒有包括這個部分各位報告這個研究報告裡面其實有建議要增修這部分那我們現在的研擬對 我們整個計程片有包括這部分但是因為立法的啟程我們現在三階段這部分我會放在後面階段我們等一下先把特留份那部分先拿出來單獨先抽出來立法好 所以"},{"start":7007.839,"end":7032.859,"text":"你們所謂的配現在所謂說希望給你們時間有配套的部分還不包括沒有包括配偶居住權因為你如果包括這個配偶居住權可能就它修的就很大了配偶居住權可能要單獨成為一張而且那是我們國家現行沒有的制度要創製的制度那這部分這個我希望說這個我們在整個配套"},{"start":7035.161,"end":7062.051,"text":"這個它是第二階段但是我覺得非常重要在現在我拿掉這個兄弟姊妹特留份等等相關的配套我覺得這個部分是重要的配套這個要一併考量那所有這些這些我們剛剛大概都談了你們所謂的配套大概就是這些東西但是大家更關心的就是說那你們研擬了那麼久你們到底什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":7063.478,"end":7081.099,"text":"我剛剛一再回覆幾個委員我們希望在本會議結束之前把法案完成預告提出預告那可能時程就跟本委員會的期待就有點落差了因為我跟委員報告我們現在這個4月其實4月了我們現在要召開第二次會議"},{"start":7082,"end":7104.323,"text":"那會期結束大概五六月嘛其實你們也可以再拖個兩年就在我們民法實施百年的時候做一個整個民法的整體配套的整個修改也可以啊再過兩年就我們民法就實施一百年啊那你也可以拖到那個時候啊不會 不然我也不會拖啦但是你如果說你們希望說在這個會期結束之前才是提出預告而已那可能跟"},{"start":7105.336,"end":7116.759,"text":"本委會的期待會有點落差我是希望說你們不只是在本會期結束之前提出法案送到立法院來我甚至希望如果"},{"start":7117.697,"end":7135.499,"text":"如果這個在刪除兄弟姊妹的這個特留份的部分在本委員會如果等一下逐條審查有高度共識那我甚至希望如果說今天保留條文你們能夠在保留協商完成之前把這個法案提出來這樣子就有機會在這次整個立法過程裡面一併討論"},{"start":7136.62,"end":7156.6,"text":"因為總是這個制度的變革你們沒有一個官方的態度也很奇怪我完全贊成那委員也清楚知道我們的法案預告完成之後要送行政院審查還會嫌司法院再送到大院他有一定的立法的一個期程程序所以現在在會期結束前只剩下這會期大概剩兩三個月這個期程因為他還要行政院審查會嫌司法院"},{"start":7161.124,"end":7184.384,"text":"這是要匯錢的法案這部分如果你們趕不及那很有可能很有可能就我們就直接就刪除就直接刪除兄弟姊妹的特留份其他配套你們自己再再去再去再去趕路了變成這樣子了我這樣子這樣的立法我個人會覺得會有點缺憾會留下遺憾就是說你這個修法你們一個連官方版本都沒有一個制度的變革連連個官方態度"},{"start":7187.247,"end":7194.483,"text":"都沒有展現我是覺得不是很妥當這部分我們就等一下留到主條討論的時候大家來看看是不是能夠有共識"},{"start":7197.174,"end":7222.156,"text":"好 謝謝沈委員剛剛沈委員也有提出希望法務部的腳步要加快我們因為也發現其實這幾個會期我們立法院 市委會這邊積極推動的法案可是法務部都沒有提對岸或是至少我希望這個法案在協商的時候你們也可以提出一些你們的想法 好不好好 接下來我們請有請范雲委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":7226.431,"end":7227.014,"text":"謝謝 有請黃次長有請黃次長"},{"start":7233.154,"end":7257.972,"text":"市長您好主要今天也想跟您討論一個跟民法的修法相關的議題就是離婚的相關法規特別是贍養費的部分那我想你們在去年2月行政院就有通過法務部的版本2005年9月行政院司法院經會嫌送立法院代審議"},{"start":7259.353,"end":7278.13,"text":"那我想這個修法的重點那我也要肯定你們就是提出你們的版本那你也可以看到我從上一屆當立委就開始推動要完善離婚後的經濟保障制度那不只是來我們司法法制會質詢過那當時希望你們能夠往"},{"start":7281.192,"end":7305.585,"text":"善養費不只是撫養費的方向修那我也跟婦女團體一起開記者會希望能夠修法支持經濟的弱勢女性在離婚後的處境那這邊你可以看到我去年六月就提出我的版本裡面大概有兩個重點第一個是要把善養費的意義轉化為婚姻生活的補償金"},{"start":7307.166,"end":7325.315,"text":"第二個是職業年金也應該納入離婚的分配請求權的範圍從我的角度來看你們的願板事實上是有三個突破你看右邊的線型條文如果要領到贍養費真的非常非常的困難"},{"start":7326.135,"end":7353.318,"text":"主要是因為1057條寫的無過失之一方應判決離婚而限於生活困難者他方重無過失應給贍養費這跟全世界很多國家比基本上台灣是請不到的因為法官對於什麼叫做限於生活困難者是給一個非常嚴格的定義那至少這個你們突破了你看左邊是你們的版本"},{"start":7354.119,"end":7367.637,"text":"已經改成因離婚而生活陷於困難或有一個或於離婚時就業能力已減損或就業機會減少者所以我覺得這意義有三個第一個不只是無過失能請領贍養費"},{"start":7369.62,"end":7389.361,"text":"也不只是判決離婚能請領贍養費,那他也包含因為婚姻、生育、家庭、減少就業機會、職壓、發展、經濟能力的弱勢配偶,他有機會請領贍養費這是我肯定的部分,但是我覺得你們有未盡之處"},{"start":7390.962,"end":7404.596,"text":"就是如果你不移除生活限於困難這個要件可能會有一些問題以下不是我說的婦女薪資基金會有蒐集近百個相關的例子還做訪談他發現大概85%的律師不會建議當事人請求贍養費"},{"start":7410.842,"end":7430.101,"text":"主要的原因就是當事人不會符合生活限於困難那請求失敗的案例中有請求的大部分律師都不會希望就是他的當事人請求在請求的例子中就是主要都是因為法官認為請求人沒有限於生活之困難"},{"start":7431.107,"end":7450.906,"text":"也就是說你留著這個生活陷於困難幾乎根本不會符合然後去請求了也不會成功十年間 次長你看一下十年間中華民國去請求的我們都不要算沒有請求的只有21件 21個人領到"},{"start":7453.769,"end":7466.719,"text":"所以那個次長為了21個可以領到的你留這個文字在這裡可能會產生很大的問題喔這個不是婦女心之題的是2020年喔就是其他的人所做的研究"},{"start":7468.371,"end":7486.889,"text":"所以我今天就是也再告訴你一個具體的例子譬如說這個原告主張年事已高患有慢性病女兒自顧不暇而且訴訟費用龐大生活已陷於困難他請求的善養費多少不是幾百萬幾千萬其實是八十萬"},{"start":7488.11,"end":7503.768,"text":"結果法院認為他雖然慢性病沒有減損工作的能力每個月子女還奉養他兩萬多元就沒有幫他請求就是因為子女有養他兩萬多這是一個實質上在研究裡面的"},{"start":7504.761,"end":7530.473,"text":"所以到底要不要把限於生活困難刪除我認為就實證上十年來至少只有21個人法院判可以 你乾脆把它刪除以免律師們的經驗你留在那裡基本上就會讓法官認為很有這個機會其實更不利於法官往另外一邊判"},{"start":7531.613,"end":7555.743,"text":"那這是第一個我要講的是你們的版本的未竟之功那第二個未竟之功是什麼善養費如果是對於婚姻的補償不是限於困難為什麼就是一個離婚的人如果我們假設他多數的時候比較是女性為多實證上他後來遇到好的對象他要再婚就會失去善養費的這個權利"},{"start":7560.56,"end":7589.754,"text":"那不知道就是說他再婚也可能遇到一個很貧窮的人不是說再婚就能夠遇到一個經濟能力相當的所以再婚為什麼就會使得一個曾經對婚姻有貢獻的人他之後本來有判得贍養費之後就沒有了那這個基本上不是限就是離婚的女性或者他也可能會是男性就是限制他有"},{"start":7590.234,"end":7607.779,"text":"新的幸福跟選擇的可能嗎那我覺得這是一個非常不合理的那我也沒有辦法看到有其他的國家有這樣的規定那最後一個就是軍公教那我知道從2017年起軍人公務人員公立學校教職員政務人員退休金"},{"start":7608.419,"end":7634.769,"text":"都已經陸續納入離婚分配請求範圍而且事實上我國的職業年金高度反映勞動市場的成就所以應該要把職業年金納入離婚分配的範圍那這是我覺得應該要做的那再來就是也給您看一下現判字第四號就是說修法明文規定合理提高他方配偶請求夫妻善於財產分配之比例"},{"start":7635.729,"end":7659.098,"text":"這是112年的憲判字第四號,明文這麼寫我們台灣簽署的CDO也很清楚的講第44段、45段、47段都告訴大家要肯定配偶就是他因為照顧家庭家務所失去的經濟機會還有他的無形對家庭的非經濟的貢獻"},{"start":7661.139,"end":7679.375,"text":"這個部分都應該要放入所以國家報告還很明確說你們這個民法就是要使所有職業中都有配偶年金分配權然後國際審查來台灣的時候建議我們政府考慮取消生活陷入困難作為善養費的條件"},{"start":7681.757,"end":7702.93,"text":"所以他直接就叫你們把這個刪掉了這是CEDAW的國際專家的意見那部長我現在的要求很簡單啦你不用現在答應我你是不是可以去研議因為我知道你們已經準備好了我剛剛有肯定過基本上有些部分做到了可不可以再考慮移除生活限於困難再婚不能領贍養肺還有職業年金納入離婚財產分配這三點以盡全功好嗎我們司法法是還沒審查希望"},{"start":7710.754,"end":7739.255,"text":"那你這多久可以給我報告跟委員說明一下啦因為這個法案司法委員未來會審查嘛最後委員剛剛提幾個問題我先簡單的回應關於第一項移除現有困難的部分我們又是知道這個問題所以我們構成要件裡面增加了選項這邊剛剛委員提到的選項不限於這個選項10年內只有12個我知道那不排除BC選項啊沒有 律師說你留在那裡法官就會往他倒非常的不利他的構成要件是或"},{"start":7739.875,"end":7754.891,"text":"如果他這麼容易的話你可不可以告訴我10年內為什麼只有這麼少的依賴以前沒有這個要件以前只有限於這個生活困難這個要件所以他能成立的機率少沒有我現在講的是另外一邊當然有開放了嘛可是你擺在那邊10年間也只有21件"},{"start":7757.173,"end":7771.661,"text":"那為什麼不乾脆就把它刪掉呢那個CITO的專家他們對這方面是性別平等跟離婚是專家他們都建議我們直接刪除那您現在不用回答我可不可以再去研議啊當然我們會來討論啦我們委員會的時候可以來討論可不可以先研議再告訴我你們的專業看法好嗎好我現在請你研議這三點因為今天時間不夠了我沒有辦法在這邊就是跟您進行答辯好不好"},{"start":7785.669,"end":7809.936,"text":"那多久可以給我這個報告一個月一個月好不好一個月好要儘快喔因為我們知道司法法制會不會隨時突襲拍攝好OK謝謝是謝謝范雲委員那麼我們先做會議程序的宣告待會在莊瑞雄委員詢答完畢之後呢我們就休息五分鐘好然後再繼續詢答好有請莊委員"},{"start":7817.887,"end":7822.932,"text":"謝謝 請法務部黃柏信次長好 請次長還有我們中廳長嗎我看也只是次長你而已次長 其實這個問題這個大家可以"},{"start":7832.83,"end":7856.276,"text":"平心靜氣把整個法制讓它更完備那我想針對這整個廢除兄弟姊妹特留份這樣的一個議題社會上討論也非常熱烈那今天翁小玲招委排這樣的一個議程我也表達非常的一個欽佩那其實在不同政黨之間差異其實不大"},{"start":7856.994,"end":7882.528,"text":"大家在等的就是說那你們的版本什麼時候會出來涉及到這整個重大制度的一個變革總不可能行政部門這邊一個國家沒有你們的角色這也好奇怪你像譬如說這個議題大家都在講的就是說你到底一個兄弟姊妹之間的特留分你要把它廢除的話在講的問題就只有一個就是說這個被繼承人"},{"start":7883.248,"end":7903.885,"text":"我生錢我賺了很多錢累積下很多的一個財產我是不是可以完全的自由來處分就是在講這個問題而已嗎結果變成他被特留份給限制住了尤其社會只要碰到說這個常常我這個被犧牲人我財產要自由處分的時候跑出毫無貢獻的或者沒有往來的這些兄弟姐妹出來了以後大家會覺得說哎喲阿開"},{"start":7905.606,"end":7926.566,"text":"真的應該照顧被繼承人在還沒有死亡之前真正照顧的是他或者說他心有所屬要遺產也是他要跑出這些兄弟姊妹出來也許大家會覺得說尊重當事人財產所有權人這些被繼承財產怎麼樣去做處分的問題可是本席倒也有一個想法啦"},{"start":7926.986,"end":7954.458,"text":"我今天也看了司法院的一些報告裡面我也看到說你像譬如說我們兄弟姐妹在這個繼承的順序裡面第三順位嘛那你第三順位像譬如說你我們要去把它做刪除的話那祖父母的部分它又是第四順位第三順位你把它刪除那你第四順位它又留在那裡這個好像又在法理上啊"},{"start":7955.444,"end":7974.343,"text":"市長你會不會覺得有點奇怪我個人都覺得有點奇怪那剛很多委員也提到說像日本這個像仿造其他國家的有特別貢獻的部分甚至還配偶居住權的部分我昨天跟我辦公室專門在討論這個問題那個問題越衍生越來越大"},{"start":7980.95,"end":7984.444,"text":"真的是只有如果真正要修法真的只有這一條而已嗎你說1138"},{"start":7987.08,"end":8015.498,"text":"繼承的部分順序的部分你不需要重新再考量嗎1144的部分你都不要去重新考量嗎或者配偶的順序的部分你是不是也要適當的去做一個安排那這個啊我相信這個議題喔這個議題社會上現在看到的只是說以現在的法制限制了被繼承人處分財產的自由的一個意志但我總覺得說這個議題最後啊可能會通過但是呢"},{"start":8016.306,"end":8030.228,"text":"行政部門 我覺得黃市長應該是你的立法的方向跟法務部真正的一個態度 你最後的版本是怎麼樣或者說有沒有更周延的設計"},{"start":8031.823,"end":8050.962,"text":"我擔心的是這個啦 你如果有應該要快點撤出來啦然後呢 不過差這幾個月啦 我們大家差不多都有共識啦社會有這個呼聲 那確實有的國家也認為根本就沒有兄弟姊妹的特留份的規定啊我們去把它刪除掉也沒有什麼啦 社會開始有那種變化嘛我如果說那一代喔 差不多還站在一起才是大家庭啦"},{"start":8057.909,"end":8082.879,"text":"這就變成說 以前的農業社會本來就是大家庭啊那像這個19年修的 在中國大陸那邊修的民法當初的社會背景 社會環境包括農業社會嘛 都把大家做得出來你看現在有好多技師工業的分散在各地的財產為什麼當初會有這樣那就是要娶大家嘛 要娶大家以前大家庭 沒有人在搬家"},{"start":8084.605,"end":8112.574,"text":"我的爺爺那一代 我爺爺到最後他不曉得幾歲他才跟我的叔公 伯公 爺公 伯公那些都是大家庭 到最後大家分居了大家分一塊給他做大家去分居 怎麼說 國語叫什麼那也不是分居 分居好像是配偶的意思可是當年的分居就是一個大家庭分出去了 你去獨立了"},{"start":8114.415,"end":8137.58,"text":"那以前大家彼此會互相照顧 變成小家庭了那現在社會又改變了 改變到最後連子女都不跟父母親住了那當然累積到最後的一個財產 跟過去的社會裡面說唉呦 你可能生前大家兄弟姊妹要互相照顧連這個兄弟姊妹死掉以後"},{"start":8138.94,"end":8157.411,"text":"弟弟會照顧哥哥或者哥哥照顧弟弟有一方死亡以後還輪流要掃掃去照顧那一個家庭過去的社會是如此可是現在就突然這樣的一個變革以後兄弟姐妹的感情當然跟以前又不太一樣了所以這個變革是可以接受但是"},{"start":8158.231,"end":8171.427,"text":"我都聽起來我都擔擔啦確實有其他委員提到的特殊貢獻的部分那確實那個有道理啊我也認為那個有道理啊可是現行法制就沒有這個東西啊所以把它放進來又是對的"},{"start":8173.627,"end":8196.961,"text":"這個本席都可以表達贊同啊像譬如說大家要學我們來學日本那個配偶的居住權的部分留給他看起來又是合理啊可是簽一法又動全身啊你那個又不是那個具備除非你把它我們把它定性成他具備有優先權啊否則你給他你給他也沒有用啊只要有兩個兄弟姊妹在的你說要有配偶有那個居住權"},{"start":8202.307,"end":8224.5,"text":"只要兄弟姊妹他是占大多數我告訴他 我要賣給別人就好因為他是共同共有啊我共有人我又超過一半啊我們兩個是兄弟姊妹我跟翁偉我們兩個是兄妹就是我們兩個說不然按照居住權的設計的話是要給媽媽住的給配偶住的我們兩個就把他給賣掉啦看你要不要買啊 你不買"},{"start":8226.516,"end":8248.77,"text":"你不買我們就真的把它給賣掉了所以我倒認為這一部法制的一個變革牽一法而動全身特殊貢獻的部分本席也贊同居住權我也贊同你說刪除掉的人社會也有這樣的一個呼聲因為環境改變了可是我們不可能真的只有修一個條文所以這個時候就期待法務部你們真的重大變革的時候你們不能缺席"},{"start":8253.857,"end":8269.346,"text":"我從這個議題在司法法治委員在討論的時候民進黨都開放的太多了我看其他政黨也開放我認為法務部你也是開放啊司法院也是開放啊可是你們不能開放到最後沒有角色啊"},{"start":8270.256,"end":8291.611,"text":"所以我覺得可惜的地方 次長你簡單給我回應一下涉及到重大的一個變革到底是完全尊重被繼承人他自己對他財產的處分權或者說你制度要去修改的時候你其他的配套要不要上來像我剛剛提到的部分你既然兄弟姐妹是第三順位你要把它刪除掉那第四順位的 那更不用講啦"},{"start":8293.135,"end":8316.689,"text":"這不是這樣說,所以請麻煩你回應跟委員報告,我們絕對支持也贊同剛剛委員講的就是說,制度的設計它一定要有相關的配套那特留份的制度它有它的歷史因素嘛到目前為止,大多數的委員贊成這個刪除兄弟緣特留份的這個立法架構基本上這個架構本方向我們是贊成的"},{"start":8316.929,"end":8346.849,"text":"只是在架構底下我們剛剛提到要有配套如同委員剛剛提到的這個貢獻份還有包括配偶的居住權像日本他甚至配偶居住權他有優先權在電條件他可是可以有優先權的設計這個台灣是沒有的所以我是贊成所以本部一直立場是說在這個刪除特留兄弟姐妹特留份的架構底下要有B法條C法條或更外圍的配套來支撐刪除後的產生的社會的一些一些權益的互相的一個平衡"},{"start":8347.97,"end":8374.347,"text":"所以我也在這邊我也跟召委來做一個建議你看我們當召委也很辛苦大家提案每一個人的案子提出來以後今天就算我們去阻調他都當事人都未必提案的委員未必會到我們也沒辦法去幫他們做決定然後行政部門又沒有他的一個版本那可是我們在看不管汪召委或者我我們去看德國的法治看日本的法治居住權 貢獻分我們都認為很合理啊大家都被嚇一嚇沒人來講我們兩個天天做冠軍"},{"start":8377.209,"end":8400.28,"text":"這也好奇怪 所以我一直在講說 一直在追的就是你們的版本真的要趕快出來啦 吃緊弄破好的配套啦 既然大家有這個共識要做 行政部門應該你們也去委託研究啦 委託研究出來大家覺得放進去 你就提出一個版本 不要大家再來把它給捨棄掉"},{"start":8401.62,"end":8423.134,"text":"阿不然林德福委員一個版本我也覺得很有道理賴思寶的我也覺得不錯民進黨的我也覺得不錯阿這三個版本你叫我兩個要怎麼算要不然把它湊一湊放進去這整個法制又不對所以我建議法務部你們真的要擔當起這樣的一個責任這個是一個制度的一個重大變革立法會會支持"},{"start":8423.894,"end":8438.532,"text":"啊但是我們不及這一時啦你給他弄主條規要怎麼主條啊也是都送出去所有的版本全部都送進去不然又要用誰的版本沒有你們的版本啊個別委員的都沒有全部放進去那我們都覺得又還不錯"},{"start":8439.617,"end":8458.908,"text":"那這邊要怎麼處理所以我期待市長你們法務部的版本什麼時候可以出來我剛多次說明就是我在這個會議結束之前我們會進行預告這個會議結束我們就差不多剩2個月時間我們因為還要研修嘛完成之後就預告你們加快啦不然在立法院裡面"},{"start":8460.817,"end":8468.845,"text":"國會的研究室是很專業沒有錯啦可是最後畢竟是國會議員在審在主條的時候國會議員在審嘛你總是要有一個比較完整的版本給大家來做一個參考這樣大家審理的時候比較不會淡淡啦因為立法委員來自不同的領域"},{"start":8480.397,"end":8502.793,"text":"並不是每一個人都是法律專家方方面面該去顧及到整個法制面會不會產生酣格或者說應該怎麼樣的一個配套才更合理的您說出來之後大家共同成就一件事嘛 好不好好 謝謝 希望這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝莊稍委那麼我們就依照之前的會議宣告現在先休息五分鐘 待會再繼續"},{"start":9030.54,"end":9038.328,"text":"好 現在繼續開會接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振淺委員不在洪孟凱委員不在張志倫委員不在接下來我們有請謝龍介委員詢答"},{"start":9066.369,"end":9079.788,"text":"主席 我要請他出場一下好 請次長主席 我請教你喔 辛苦啊三位弟喔算長嘛齁"},{"start":9082.014,"end":9090.925,"text":"你有沒有去投行、分臨、雇傭?去欠債有嗎?聯合稽查你欠債什麼?就是物價看有沒有壟斷或豐台什麼壟斷?"},{"start":9098.453,"end":9123.009,"text":"壟斷就是我們公民交易法上面有一些聯合行為的壟斷那你如果發現有人異常囤貨在壟斷的時候你怎麼處理這看有行政上的處理跟行事上的處理行政上的處理就是行政主管機關他會進行如果有的話會進行採訪如果有刑事案件的話我們就會發交給地檢署去做他壟斷了嘛他已經壟斷了囤貨了你要行事上怎麼處理"},{"start":9124.695,"end":9129.498,"text":"公民交易法他要行政機關先進行相關的裁罰,制止相關的裁罰你不用請他去調查,他就壟斷啦,你看啊,封台物價,不然你們是在欺負什麼"},{"start":9143.783,"end":9155.869,"text":"要不然叫行政機關去裁判,卡到你們去扣債,那你就在作秀啊不一定,它如果涉及到有可能刑法251條有囤積拘獲這條罪它有可能會涉及刑事犯罪251條是什麼囤積積持這個犯罪251條是說意圖抬高交易價格嘛,囤積嘛對無證當理由則處三年以下有期徒刑嘛對"},{"start":9171.874,"end":9176.53,"text":"然後這是三十萬法科這裡面有三款是什麼"},{"start":9179.059,"end":9203.649,"text":"就是你囤積的物品 他要限定這三款囤積什麼物品啊第一個第一款當然就是相關的飲食物品 第二個是這個原料糧食 農產品或其他民生必須之飲食物品嘛 沒錯這第一阿塑膠底要感謝這位嗎 這當然不是 不是第二 種苗 肥料 原料或其他農業 工業必須之物品嘛 對塑膠底要感謝"},{"start":9205.968,"end":9226.621,"text":"塑膠袋本身不是,它有可能會有個原料的問題塑膠袋不是嘛塑膠袋不是,那第三前兩款以外經行政院公告之生火必須用品如果這樣,塑膠袋應該是屬於這條吧這個要等行政院公告好,要等行政院公告"},{"start":9227.642,"end":9251.141,"text":"那請問你行政院有公告嗎?這部分行政院院會已經有決議就要請經濟部來報告行政院他有公告嗎?目前還沒有我感覺你們真的是無農無地無稻為了一個塑膠袋民間沒有風台你們自己就先風台啊你就衝到人心惶惶吼 吼 吼 吼 吼 吼 吼我問你現在去大賣場什麼人沒辦法拿到塑膠袋啊"},{"start":9257.492,"end":9281.243,"text":"行政院他也沒有公告那上次衛生紙在烘台也沒有看到行政院公告啊行政院有史也到今天有公告哪一項是民生必需品要杜絕這個囤貨烘台物價有沒有我查是沒有啊口罩沒有公告啊"},{"start":9282.465,"end":9295.44,"text":"應該有吧 應該有公告啊有公告嗎行政院有公告這是生活必需用品嗎你不可以囤積嘛他是直接徵收啊他哪有公告這我要確認一下你有用251條去給他發到這間你告訴我"},{"start":9300.044,"end":9326.403,"text":"各位報告 事實上我們這個案件 光去年度我們就將近偵辦了一百多件 兩百五十一條偵辦偵辦你有做一條 用了一條 因為你都沒有符合定數 行政院就沒有公告啊當然不只有只有公告 它有三款嘛三款就第一款 第二款不是 第三款就是要行政院公告嘛但我們去查的不只只有說兩百五十一條 那我們立法就是兩百五十一條我就寫在這 你不想贏 行政院也不想遵守"},{"start":9328.203,"end":9353.602,"text":"阿你為什麼要自己民辦阿你違法無辜阿是不是這樣行政醫生是要先講過啦對 各位他有三款啦阿你第一款 第二款不是嘛阿第三款就是要經過行政院公告嘛了解 第二款它是原料 原塑化的原料我們不只只有茶塑膠袋這整個是全面去去查不是只有茶塑膠袋你們現在這樣補下去都是塑膠漏了啦"},{"start":9354.342,"end":9376.251,"text":"我們這個小組跟委員報告 我們不是只有這個塑膠袋它是相關的民生物資 相關的資源 我們都會去做聯合的稽查行政院齁 我現在要跟你講的就是這樣嘛 有法律體驗嘛阿你無敵無告嘛 阿沒要慎用法條嘛然後行政院根本就是陪著做秀嘛 它是只有要做秀而已好 有人在頓 有人在頓結果勒"},{"start":9379.71,"end":9395.764,"text":"他也沒有要講究,他如果今天講究,你怎麼去揭曉大家的違法優遇啊檢察官也違法優遇啊,也可以給他起訴啊他只有251條,他就可以辦啊不是啊,你行政他擺爛啊啊如果正經的,可以不復甦啊對不對,叫你們出來擔啊,五九頭家,八九大罪我告訴你,這個明明你說的251條啊,不是啊"},{"start":9409.83,"end":9421.103,"text":"第一款、第二款真的就不是啊第三款就是要行政院公告啊該當現在已經公告據我所知他們也在進行相關的公告程序"},{"start":9422.153,"end":9447.788,"text":"他沒說過你就沒辦法 你現在去勘測 人家都說你作秀了他不是只有刑法251條 我剛剛講的公民教育法他有可能會涉及公民教育法的行為不是只有行政上的行為公民教育法的刑律 我數你一萬五百名秋秋我一段時間 我的原料 我的勝算 我的告費 我有頂多對不對 這是主要買的買啊"},{"start":9449.548,"end":9461.814,"text":"啊你不是啊 你看補助補什麼 沒人在頓塑膠爐啊 都你政府在頓你政府出一口水在頓 頓到大家百姓都來跟我說啊現在去都沒塑膠爐 我問你 你跟我說做一間賣場沒塑膠爐啊你跟我說 我來跟你處理 每天都有 這樣是誰在頓啊你又去勘測 喔你又 欸 給你連鑼 吼 講鑼講鍋 去人家說要來勘測你再去 王王隊 卓榮泰去陪夢"},{"start":9480.458,"end":9506.338,"text":"姜特姐好謝謝 謝委員那請次長這邊要趕快提醒行政院趕快公告相關的法案好那接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言謝主席我們有請次長有請次長"},{"start":9511.235,"end":9533.854,"text":"委員好市長好我想今天我有三個問題主要就是有關於這個民法1223條的一個邏輯上面的問題就是說我們在針對民法第1233條我們針對於兄弟姊妹特留份的一些檢討那在現行制度之下兄弟姊妹的排行繼承的順序是排在祖父母前面"},{"start":9534.534,"end":9548.88,"text":"那今天其實有非常多的討論都是在討論刪除兄弟姐妹的一個特留份那我也了解這是因為整個制度的變遷嘛所以現在因應時代的變化所以我們有這樣子的一個刪除但是我想今天我們在刪除兄弟姐妹特留份的時候那"},{"start":9549.6,"end":9572.094,"text":"排行在兄弟姊妹之後的祖父母是不是也應該要一併來刪除呢想請教次長的意見跟我們報告當然委員有提供提供這種版本祖父母部分的特別婚事要刪除但本部的立場是認為祖父母他畢竟是直系血親他跟兄弟姊妹旁立血親他的親入遠近關係還是不同啦另外就是說外國的立法例上其一個祖父母他還是有"},{"start":9572.854,"end":9594.059,"text":"維持他的這個特留分的立法例第三個就是說目前整個我們刪除祖父母特留分的部分社會其實比較少在討論的維持現在的繼承狀態 順位狀態其實在外界沒有太大爭議的話本部是認為這部分先暫時還是維持祖父母的特留分的部分"},{"start":9594.824,"end":9613.16,"text":"好那我自己會認為說因為聽起來就是說他的程序雖然是在後面但是因為今天比較沒有在討論所以我們就先保留聽起來我的解讀好像是這樣就是說祖父母他畢竟是直系血親對但是直系血親上面我們現在還是把他排在順位的後面對不對畢竟你"},{"start":9613.74,"end":9628.908,"text":"你雖然是認定他直系水準可是你的議法上面就已經把它放在後面的順序那這件事情不是也應該要一併的來檢討嗎到底適不適合不然我覺得這個邏輯上面似乎有一點點體力上面這個我們已經列入我們會議中討論了會討論了"},{"start":9631.149,"end":9653.007,"text":"但是跟我們報告就是說 祖父母跟繼承人的關係有時候比較在現實社會上 因為兄弟姐妹他也比較疏離了但祖父母畢竟直系現在的社會裡面 祖父母跟被紀念人住在一起比兄弟姐妹搞不好還多需要撫養的搞不好還多如果把他特留份也剝奪掉他影響層面搞不好更大比兄弟姐妹還更大"},{"start":9653.735,"end":9674.078,"text":"好 了解那再來第二個問題也是想要請教就是說剛剛次長也有提到嘛因為多數的兄弟姐妹可能平常來回不生嘛然後特別是現在不婚不生的一個比例上升的狀況之下那也有可能有另外一個狀況就是說他們長期是跟兄弟姐妹住在一起那實際上面照顧這個被繼承人"},{"start":9674.418,"end":9691.028,"text":"甚至生活照料就醫陪伴處理生活撫養等等的都是由兄弟姊妹來承擔了主要的責任那如果今天就是完全刪除了他們的特留份那一旦被繼承人透過遺囑把財產全部留給其他人那這些兄弟姊妹擔任長期照顧者的"},{"start":9691.408,"end":9714.576,"text":"兄弟姊妹最後在法律上面反而一無所有那這也是有一些人擔心的問題那我們也有看到日本在2018年修法的時候他進一步也增設了貢獻粉的這個制度也就是讓不是繼承人的親屬如果被繼承人有相當的照顧或其他的特別貢獻也可以依法向繼承人來請求相當程度的貢獻程度支付金錢"},{"start":9715.456,"end":9730.521,"text":"所以這個其實就是日本有考量到我們剛剛講的這個狀況那我想要請教就是說如果今天法務部的方向是要強化個人的財產自由擴大移住自由的話那同時我們如果又要維持繼承制度中的家庭照顧倫理"},{"start":9731.941,"end":9753.525,"text":"那就不能夠只是單一刪除一項權利卻不來處理他的貢獻要如何被承認否則最後就是修法會保護到的是形式上的一組滯留卻忽略了實際上的照顧付出所以我想要請教法務部針對於這個修法後要如何來保障這些長期真正承擔了這些照顧責任的兄弟姊妹呢"},{"start":9755.065,"end":9775.153,"text":"對 如同委員剛才所提的我們一旦完全刪除兄弟姊妹特留份的時候就會產生委員檢報上面所提的問題那兄弟姊妹他如果本身是消極的被撫養的當然或者積極的撫養別人的這部分我們要不要做一個配套的處理所以我們一直主張就是說在兄弟姊妹被消極的被撫養的時候應該要有一個遺產著給請求權"},{"start":9778.934,"end":9801.309,"text":"在兄弟姊妹積極的撫養別人的時候應該要有一個貢獻份的概念所以我們配套措施在消極面跟積極面我們都認為應該要去補充所以我說在刪除兄弟姊妹特留份的這個架構底下法務部一直主張是不是要有兩條或三條的條文去做這個補充性的讓這個權益作為相互的平衡"},{"start":9801.894,"end":9822.66,"text":"所以我們現在法務部已經有提出條文了嗎沒有 這個正在研擬目前我們正在準備要開第二次會議了那大概預估的進度是什麼時候我今天會議一來講就是說我們希望在這個會期結束之前我們的草案能夠完成預告完成進行預告 提出預告完成提出預告是嗎對"},{"start":9824.369,"end":9845.345,"text":"我想這個可能要再加速啦因為我想民間非常關注這件事情等到結束前才提出預告我覺得時間上面實在是有點太慢了啦所以我這個希望可以再加速啦那最後一題就是說針對於法服酬金這件事情我也想要跟次長來討論一下就是說我們在法律輔助的制度的存在就是要保障那些沒有資源的人嘛對不對因為有錢人根本就不需要要用到法服嘛"},{"start":9846.886,"end":9865.046,"text":"可是我們一方面要求律師承擔公益件的案件可是一方面我們卻讓這個酬金標準停留在20年前法輔基金會從2004年設立到現在我們一般案件的每一個計算則算的數額都是1000元20年前的一個陽春麵"},{"start":9866.067,"end":9883.257,"text":"是二三十塊現在的一碗陽春麵五十塊以上五十塊以上所以我們的物價指數已經改變得非常非常多了如果我們來看物價指數的成長已經成長了27.3%可是我們現在法服律是領的還是二十年前的一個報酬標準我認為這個非常的不合理啦"},{"start":9883.997,"end":9903.085,"text":"因為我想法服案件不是只是把名字掛上去嘛畢竟整個過程之中他可能要接見月券撰狀出庭和當事人反覆溝通釐清許多案件其實需要投入大量的時間跟專業那我們雖然現在在法服酬金計付辦法裡面有標準工時表也有佐檢"},{"start":9904.305,"end":9932.839,"text":"濁增的規定可是基數不變其實在一個過低的基礎上就算再怎麼細節的調整它還是非常的低所以2024年的時候立法院其實已經有決議要每三年依據物價指數來檢討一次但是現在似乎上還沒有具體的落實那我想針對於資源不足的地方會更直接的影響我們的律師來承接這些案件的意願也會影響我們的制度的可延續性所以我想要請教司法院"},{"start":9934.585,"end":9958.965,"text":"法服律師的酬金20年沒有調整現在有沒有明確的調整時程呢是 向委員報告司法院有成立這個法服的監管會那麼主辦廳有就這個酬金的調整做一個很詳細跟公平的研究就是支持合理酬金的調整但是呢"},{"start":9959.645,"end":9980.316,"text":"不太適合齊頭式的一個基數齊頭式的一個調整這樣齊頭式的調整有一個不公平的缺點就是案件它有繁重跟比較簡單那麼如果一律用這樣的基數去算尤其近年來這個詐欺案件太多"},{"start":9980.896,"end":9996.773,"text":"那對於這個是法服這樣的一個籌金的負擔會很沉重但司法院有研擬一個合理調整的方案現在正在非常詳細的研擬中有一定要調整是的"},{"start":9997.301,"end":10011.437,"text":"我希望就是說因為我覺得這個方案不太確定是說是由誰來做這個調整這個行政裁量我不太確定到底是如何進行但是因為我時間已經到我有一個簡單的訴求希望司法院可以來參考"},{"start":10012.418,"end":10031.155,"text":"就是說我是還是希望可以把最低的則算數而定期的檢討週期以及物價指數連動的機制來寫進我們的法律輔助法好要讓大家知道說我們是會有制度上面要求國家定期的來面對這件事情所以不曉得說我們是不是可以把這樣子的一個機制明文錄法呢想聽"},{"start":10032.376,"end":10054.208,"text":"聽一下我們司法院是不是可以簡單回應一下現在目前在研擬的方案內剛剛委員的說明我帶回去馬上向我們的主管報告同時我們的主管廳司法行政廳我會去把這些議題都帶給他們可以來加入研擬研究以上"},{"start":10054.608,"end":10070.303,"text":"好那我這樣子好不好因為看起來就是說我們會很快來進行這樣子的討論那我是不是可以兩個禮拜來追蹤一下我們相關的進度好嗎看知道一下現在進度到哪裡是我帶回去會報告回報好那我兩禮拜之後會再追蹤好謝謝謝謝好謝謝曾委員那麼接下來我們有請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":10086.798,"end":10093.084,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請法務部黃次長及司法院中廳長好,請次長還有廳長我也好"},{"start":10098.089,"end":10121.307,"text":"你好 聽長好正次還有聽長今天我們要討論的就是有關民法第1223條的這個有關特留份的問題那因為這一條法令是大概在民國大概18、19年制定的以今天的社會的結構跟這個親屬互動還有產產的方式其實已經"},{"start":10122.208,"end":10140.716,"text":"早就跟當年不同了這已經將近快一百年前的這樣子的一個法令那所以今天其實我們很多委員都有提出相關的修法版本就希望說因應現在的一個我們現在的社會的一個狀況因為其實大部分我們現在的人大概都是成年之後大概兄弟姊妹就各自經濟獨立"},{"start":10142.037,"end":10166.62,"text":"那彼此互為互養照顧的狀況其實不多所以我們今天特別提出來這樣的一個這個條文的修正草案那當然我想我們看到就是司法院的書面意見最後寫得很清楚就是無不同意見那請問一下鐘廷長所以針對這個部分司法院對於這個刪除方向是不是認為沒有問題"},{"start":10168.685,"end":10184.445,"text":"報告員是的另外我再請教一下黃政策司法院的報告剛寫的是無不同意見但是你們法務部一方面寫競表贊同但又寫說要考量不同的個案情況"},{"start":10185.886,"end":10206.193,"text":"適用的公平性,要採取配套的措施比較周全,是這樣嗎?對,基本上我們對這個三族兄弟組織特別部門的方向贊同,這個是跟我們要增加相關的配套,這是不衝突的。在這個暫存的架構下,我們主張另外要增加一條,增加兩條或三條的這個相關的配套。"},{"start":10206.961,"end":10228.733,"text":"對 那這相關的配套你們已經研擬出來了是嗎沒有 目前還在開會因為其實這個法條也已經將近一百年那針對這個部分而且時空背景還有整個環境其實已經不同那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法研擬出來跟我們報告因為我們一百零五年其實提出相關的版本當時的立法方向是就兄弟姐妹特留份的部分是降低他的特留份"},{"start":10229.193,"end":10247.306,"text":"現在兄弟姊妹的特留份是三分之一當時提案是降到四分之一因為還有兄弟姊妹當時還保有一點點的特留份所以不會跟今天完全刪除他是完全不同的立法方向這次你可以看一下就是依據司法院的統計資料我們可以看到有關遺囑訴訟已經有105年的1364件增加到"},{"start":10252.871,"end":10272.99,"text":"114年的2864件那確實我們也看到很多這個遺產的糾紛都是兄弟姊妹之間在做這樣子的一個徵送那因為你們現在要採議題式的三階段修法那請問一下就如果這個議題式的三階段修法是你們第一次研修小組會議的結論是嗎"},{"start":10275.791,"end":10303.736,"text":"對 這個是我們第一件修法就是把今天大家討論的特留份先拿出來抽出來單獨先立法所以說今天兩位的話到底針對這個部分是不是都同意這個刪除的方向是正確的基本上我們報告也講了刪除兄弟有沒有特留份的這個立法院本部是贊成的只是要配套那既然已經贊成 包括廳長這邊司法院也沒有意見嘛那是不是今天我們就可以讓這個法案能夠推進呢"},{"start":10305.965,"end":10312.532,"text":"我們還是認為要有配套的措施我們希望這個會期結束之前能提出法案的預告因為我們現在已經開過一次專家會議正準備四月中開第二次四月中已經四月了"},{"start":10325.965,"end":10350.172,"text":"我們還是希望說針對這個部分其實這個是一個相對單純的法條我們還是希望能夠因應現在實現這個真正被繼承人的遺囑自由的這樣子的一個方向可以嗎這個方向我們是贊同的那另外再請教一下廳長您可以請回我現在要請教的是這個黃政次就是有關這個房屋部在3月16號高調宣布要聯合這個"},{"start":10352.532,"end":10369.741,"text":"這個延長塑膠袋的囤貨那當時你們也開了一個記者會說要開始這個你們稽查的重點那這樣的一個方向不是就在告訴那些囤貨的黑心商人趕快來趕快把貨藏好我要來稽查了"},{"start":10370.601,"end":10389.088,"text":"會不會有這樣的問題因為現在看起來的話確實這個問題還蠻嚴重而且接下來有可能塑膠和飲料杯都可能斷貨所以這個方向是不是當時你們其實做法是有待商議的各位報告其實我們也沒有公布是哪一家要去查哪一家嘛全國這麼多的這個不會有預先"},{"start":10391.409,"end":10416.955,"text":"對你們有公佈要稽查哪一家可是我就是知道你們要開始稽查啦所以真正要囤貨的商人就趕快把貨藏起來就好了跟我報告他本來如果有涉及犯罪違法本來就不應該跟我們查不查當然當然所以現在有查到嗎你們現在有查到那個嗎有囤貨的狀況嗎因為因為他是昨天才開始聯合稽查所以相關相關主管機關因為聯合稽查他是主管機關根據他本身的業管去做聯合稽查所以相關的主管機關他會進行相關的盤整"},{"start":10418.135,"end":10436.106,"text":"對 因為針對這個部分的話其實法務部如果再不拿出鐵碗的話接下來我剛剛講的就是塑膠和飲料杯都有可能斷貨所以因為現在看起來中東的戰爭還沒有結束的一個跡象嘛所以這個塑膠通膨可能會壓垮這個基層的攤商那請問這個次長你這邊你們要怎麼來去解決這個問題呢"},{"start":10439.788,"end":10453.744,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們除了這一個剛剛委員提到的聯合稽查小組啟動之外我們還請台高檢署如果涉及犯罪的話台高檢署他有一個這個關於這個打擊民生犯罪的平台他會要求所屬的地檢署"},{"start":10454.525,"end":10473.52,"text":"也要成立這個打擊犯罪比賽犯罪的平台現在這幾天全國各地檢署已經如我如獨的召集轄區內的所有跟這一個民生物資有關係的夜館的居住啊進行相關的情緒的分享或進行相關查處的一些研議所以說也希望政策這邊喔一定我們一定要好好的來去嚴格的這個稽查"},{"start":10475.042,"end":10489.272,"text":"讓這樣子的一個塑膠袋之亂不至於能夠擴展要不然現在大家都開始驚慌尤其是這個我們的小吃店的話幾乎都為了這個有的塑膠袋已經漲了一倍以上了那接下來還有可能面臨斷貨的問題所以這請法務部一定要嚴格的來去稽查"},{"start":10494.375,"end":10520.443,"text":"那另外再請教您有關就是新北市土城的圍棋老師猥褻12名兒童案那因為這個部分其實我們現在其實一直強調要減速作業但是呢這個減速作業的這個程序還是耗時過長在90年事辦的初期大概只需要兩個小時可是現在實務上進入減速作業的案件卻大幅增加到六個小時請問為什麼要會增加這麼多時間"},{"start":10523.244,"end":10551.187,"text":"各位報告那減速當然是我們的政策方向啦但每一個個案不一樣他這個小朋友的狀況也不一樣他只要剛花這麼多小時在詢問這個被害人一定是個案上有他的理由當天的狀況其實他從9月1號到隔天凌晨是歷經13個小時喔那這樣對一個這個被害的這個學生他其實生理的心理的煎熬其實都非常的大所以這根本完全違反我們這個減速作業的初衷嘛"},{"start":10552.912,"end":10571.46,"text":"簡述跟委員報告簡述是避免重複的多不同的人進行詢問詢問那這個是檢察官他的問他的詢問但是檢察官詢問被害人他時間是不是過長這一點基本上檢察官他個案他有一定他的理由但我也贊成這個委員所提的因為他畢竟被害的小朋友時間能不能"},{"start":10572.56,"end":10591.46,"text":"尤其是這一件的話當時在這個家長要培訓還拒絕家長培訓的狀況請問一下檢察官可以這樣剝奪家長的陪同權嗎當然陪同權原則上是可以但是他法律上有規定就是說檢察官在特定的狀況之下特定要件之下他是可以不讓他在場的"},{"start":10592.1,"end":10613.215,"text":"可是檢察官是為了他自己辦案的一個方便結果忽視了保護我們這個真正受害的這些孩童那請問一下這個方向正是您認同這個邏輯嗎原則上當然小朋友我們要這樣他可陪同或可靠信賴人在場但檢察官他都有清楚知道這個規定他還會做這種決定表示他個案上的確有他的考慮"},{"start":10613.975,"end":10630.23,"text":"那你不能說個案上有這樣的考慮其實我現在講的是通盤的問題就是說對於孩童來說事實上他最信任的就是家人那為什麼家人不能陪伴在旁邊我覺得針對這個案子我們覺得非常的匪夷所思啊所以這個條文設計上原則上是讓他陪童這檢察官也清楚的"},{"start":10630.77,"end":10649.358,"text":"對 所以說針對這部分檢察官他在這方面的真的在這個執法上是不是有過當那所以我覺得這個部分法務部應該也要特別去了解讓我們所有的這個被害的學童不至於說在面對這樣子的一個冗長的一個宣誓過程中還要遭受到這樣的壓力又沒有親人陪伴在場這個部分因為監察院他事實上有進行調查"},{"start":10650.618,"end":10677.324,"text":"那相關我們也相關的這個對還有針對他針對這個因為他這次還有拍攝性影像嘛所以針對這個數位這個性暴力的這個起訴居然還沒有懲罰檢查官居然還沒有起訴這個兒少性剝削條例的第36條所以這個檢查官其實基本上有很多地方我們都覺得有很大的一個問題啊所以說可能請法務部也要了解也要了解一下狀況好謝謝"},{"start":10681.069,"end":10703.175,"text":"好 謝謝許宇珍委員 那我們接下來有請黃敬豪委員 黃敬豪委員黃敬豪委員不在 那接下來請楊瓊瑩委員謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言 邀請法務部跟司法好 那有請次長跟廳長委員好"},{"start":10707.072,"end":10729.732,"text":"好 就今天本席跟黃建豪等28人所提案針對民法第1223條的修正也就是刪除兄弟姊妹特留份規定落實遺產自由並維護繼承的一個公平我請教兩位 是不是贊同本席的這個提案 請說明"},{"start":10731.309,"end":10760.609,"text":"官員報告就法務部的立場報告和我多次答詢我已經持有刪除兄弟姊妹特留方向的部分我們是贊成的只在刪除的架構底下法務部一直主張希望有增加兩條到三條的配套的條文來做補充配套的條文現在委員以及社會大眾方向跟您的方向也是一樣也就是都同意刪除的這個方向那你的配套今天我們已經在尋答在審議你什麼時候要出來"},{"start":10762.41,"end":10766.611,"text":"為什麼會慢半拍呢 你既然認同為什麼還要等待這個時間呢什麼時候會出來我們剛剛就希望這個會期結束之前我們能夠進行預告提出預告 條文提出預告這個會期結束進行預告 可是我們已經ING在審查當中"},{"start":10783.413,"end":10802.366,"text":"你還說你沒慢半拍這個法案提出已經什麼時候就已經提出啊好 法部我們仍舊希望因為立法院在審議在詢答我們希望你的腳程要一起提出來做討論這才是重點這是非常重要因為既然大家方向是一致嘛來 司法 廳長"},{"start":10804.281,"end":10821.34,"text":"包括委員 關於這個兄弟姊妹特留份的刪除司法院的立場是認同的 同意的是認同的 好 非常感謝那也就是說因為依照民法將兄弟姊妹來列為特留份的這個權利人因為我們以往的社會"},{"start":10822.861,"end":10850.704,"text":"這個生活方式跟形態到現在有很大的改變早期是大家族共同撫養的一個結構所以有當時這樣子的一個設置但是我們當前核心的家庭形態它已經跟以往這個是不一樣了所以實際上兄弟姊妹長大之後呢他也各自能夠獨立有各自去獨立 去經濟所以如果我們強制去分配遺產 倒置"},{"start":10852.165,"end":10874.68,"text":"無子女者即使他有力道這個遺族他就沒有辦法依照他自己意願去分財產那不僅是侵害了遺族的自由更形成未婚未育反而被制度去做懲罰這也就是我們大家贊同的這個不對等的一個現象再來我們也看到日本 德國"},{"start":10876.909,"end":10888.296,"text":"法國他們這個法治國家都已經早已經是排除那在去年2024年2024年前的時候呢那韓國他也宣告違憲並已經廢止了所以呢剛剛我們已經有討論到"},{"start":10892.839,"end":10908.058,"text":"大家都認同是取消的那至於你的配套我還是勉勵在我們審議當中你有這個方向就必須提出共同討論讓這個案能夠真正的落實在我們社會的一個"},{"start":10909.499,"end":10930.247,"text":"這個公正上面才不會又引導說立了遺囑而沒有辦法去落實的這個人民信貸保護原則最高的原則去受挑戰好 所以要加油那接下來本席法務部我要請教中東戰爭這原有的這個問題讓石化業在這個它的原料方面呢"},{"start":10931.267,"end":10940.553,"text":"PE PVVC 這一些不斷在漲 尤其乙烯的部分它不是漲四五十趴它乙烯的部分現在幾乎漲到一倍 97%那現在導致報價"},{"start":10945,"end":10964.316,"text":"也沒有辦法出貨甚至報價頂多給你出半料那所以導致我們整個生活產業的形態大受影響塑膠袋紙杯這些會大受影響那現在你們說你們在查你們查的方向是什麼進度是什麼請做說明"},{"start":10965.897,"end":10981.816,"text":"這涉及到行政方面的角度跟行事方面的角度行政方面的角度的話 部裡面有一個物價聯合計查小組會到各主管機關 結合各主管機關到各地去做查訪如果有涉及行政 他就行政裁罰"},{"start":10982.797,"end":11005.491,"text":"這是行政的角度那從刑事犯罪的角度呢我們台高檢署呢他有一個平台他已經要求所屬各地檢的這個打擊民生犯罪平台各地檢署要結合轄區內的所有的相關機關他要成立自己的平台然後呢如果一旦什麼時候成立跟我們報告台高檢署他已經在上個禮拜已經成立這個平台早就有他已經重申在上個禮拜"},{"start":11006.752,"end":11033.307,"text":"要求 要求那各地檢署要求說各地檢署在這個禮拜都陸續的召集轄區內的平台在召會所以還沒有實際去諮詢嗎有 有 有 已經有實際有沒有 本期要請問的是這個因為已經告訴你末端沒有辦法出貨影響到我們的民生產業了那到底你從上個禮拜開始注重到這個問題說你們要去查那到現在今天已經是禮拜四了"},{"start":11034.247,"end":11060.612,"text":"那到底查的情況到底是怎麼樣那個中央的聯合稽查 物價聯合稽查小組昨天就已經聯合稽查了那您提到的各地方的地檢署的檢察官的部分他也陸續地質稽查但相關有沒有案件正在 他還要進行蒐證的過程嗎他不可能昨天查 今天就有案子出現他要進行相關的蒐證所以你現在回答本席的就是說從上個禮拜你們已經有開始啟動"},{"start":11062.633,"end":11081.146,"text":"因為這位大眾要了解是政府的進度到底是什麼啊也就是上個禮拜你們開始啟動現在還是有進行是在查是不是如此那當然那請教那當然為什麼越查越漲價為什麼越查越末端越沒有辦法出貨"},{"start":11084.1,"end":11098.45,"text":"這問題到底出在哪裡這問題當然很多那就從法務部的角度來看我們當然是要這一個有行政部法要聯合稽查有刑事部法我們要進行偵辦委員提到的那個變數因素太多了那就不是法務部他的主管範圍"},{"start":11099.551,"end":11117.783,"text":"所以法部當然在查的時候就是說你如何去區分它是合理的庫存行為跟不法的囤積那當然公平會有沒有聯合的壟斷這是政府必須橫向去聯繫的因為我們要看的是民眾的需求"},{"start":11119.046,"end":11143.572,"text":"產業的需求產業的需求看到政府越查越漲價越查越沒有出貨這是我們身為民代必須告訴政府我們現在碰到的困難是如何所以你們必須橫向的去了解因為本席非常深怕如果無限量的一直漲在這樣的情況之下整個民生同本再漲哇 那這個人民的生活太痛苦了"},{"start":11144.292,"end":11157.61,"text":"所以政府必須要拿出政府的權責要好好去做一定要加油最後本席一個課題給你也就是說我們現在在新北校園割井的這個案件"},{"start":11159.204,"end":11185.957,"text":"那在這個案件當中到底據聞你們3月23號是有開公聽會去做這個討論那到底我們司法院也就是有危險的高暴力的這一些反覆偏差行為的你如果讓他一直留在一般的校園那我們的老師怎麼辦我們的孩子怎麼辦家長問了一句話我的孩子在學校有沒有安全"},{"start":11188.378,"end":11203.243,"text":"這個是民主國家不應當有的話語不應當這樣子但是他明明白白會讓家長來憂心所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教成立專責關護機構是不是有這個必要因為教育部司法院還有法務部你們三方那現在你們的公聽會方向有沒有一致了"},{"start":11217.37,"end":11230.035,"text":"有關高風險飛行少年回到校園的安全目前司法院在少年法庭這一端已經實施了所謂高風險篩選"},{"start":11231.656,"end":11247.561,"text":"一篩選到高中選加入幫派或有危害生命的一律都是用隔離方式的那這個也跟教育部一起有所謂的過渡性中途的學校教育措施來隔離另外比較嚴重的我們是送到這個角質學校"},{"start":11250.002,"end":11269.452,"text":"第三方面就是這幾個所有行政端跟司法端聯合開這種專案的資源整合會議來將這些高風險的孩子有一個層次的處理至於說要不要成立關戶署這個是一個國家大政策的問題那我們同意一起討論一起研究"},{"start":11270.672,"end":11293.772,"text":"討論一句同意討論因為3月23號裡頭教育部跟法務部你們都是贊成的就司法的部分你們有意見當然有意見我們要好好去討論因為我們要看的是末端如果依照廳長你剛剛所說的你都是足夠的但是足夠一樣跟剛剛那個議題一樣末端的時候家長問一句我的孩子在校園到底安不安全"},{"start":11294.372,"end":11316.016,"text":"到底安不安全這個是我們必須要去思考的而不是我們依照目前的制度但是你的答案是不好的那就有討論的空間所以我也歡喜有看到3月23號的這個公聽會那兩方都贊成就你這方還有疑慮我希望三方還是要好好的去討論我們的目標就是讓孩子"},{"start":11316.536,"end":11338.093,"text":"能夠安全這是我們終極的目標嘛對不對所以我們必須要好好再討論好嗎讓我們的孩子安全謝謝謝謝楊委員那接下來是林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在羅廷維委員"},{"start":11339.242,"end":11362.532,"text":"羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員不在那今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢我們就詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會那委員蔡奇商和張志倫兩位委員他們所提的書面質詢我們就列入記錄並且刊登公報而且請相關機關要以書面答覆"},{"start":11364.557,"end":11381.085,"text":"那麼我們現在就進行討論事項那麼先請議事人員宣讀今天的有兩個提案然後所有的提案條文宣讀時間大約兩分鐘那麼如果有修正都議互附帶決議提出的話那麼也請儘速將書面送交到主席台"},{"start":11381.565,"end":11397.3,"text":"要一臂應發到現場進行討論審查法案的時候也請主要的列席機關代表移到主席台正前方首長席的位置就座宣讀的時候如果有收到修正動議也請一併宣讀宣讀後我們就即進行討論現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":11400.981,"end":11430.981,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11431.101,"end":11442.954,"text":"委員羅廷英委等提案第1223條委員林佩祥等提案第1223條均同委員吳宗憲等提案委員柯智恩等提案第1223條委員楊瓊英等提案第1223條均同委員林倩琦等提案委員王洪威等提案第1223條同委員吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":11451.303,"end":11475.826,"text":"委員吳曉伶等提案第1223條委員徐曉欣等提案第1223條均同委員林建啟等提案委員林登夫等提案第1223條除將第四款修正為次曾有撫養被繼承人逝世或繼承人身心障礙或無謀生能力受被繼承人撫養者兄弟姊妹之特留份為其因紀份三分之一其餘未修正"},{"start":11477.099,"end":11486.924,"text":"委員圖全集等提案第1223條委員徐宇貞等提案第1223條委員張志倫等提案第1223條委員黃建豪等提案第1223條委員羅志強等提案第1223條委員游皓等提案第1223條委員吟寬衡等提案第1223條俊桐委員吳宗慶等提案委員賴思寶等提案第1223條"},{"start":11502.236,"end":11517.488,"text":"除刪除現行條文第四款及第五款外其餘未修正委員羅明才等提案第1223條及委員陳金威等提案第1223條均同委員吳宗憲等提案討論事項第二案民法繼承邊施行法"},{"start":11518.208,"end":11537.922,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案增訂條文第12條中華民國某年某月某日修正通過之民法繼承編第1223條自公佈日施行本條修正施行後發生之繼承事件適用修正後之規定施行前發生之繼承事件仍適用修正前之規定"},{"start":11538.482,"end":11555.293,"text":"修正事行前因兄弟姐妹特留份提起之訴訟長置執行或保全程序依修正前之規定處理修正事行前以確定之判決調解和解或以完成遺產分割登記不得僅以本次修正為由請求撤銷或變更宣讀完畢"},{"start":11558.479,"end":11584.858,"text":"那麼條文已經都宣讀完畢了那麼現在就進行討論事項第一案 併案審查民法第1223條條文修正草案那麼因為這個本案條文只有一條而且我們也經過上午的詢答所以我們就想請問在場的委員我們是不是本案就省略大提討論直接進入逐條審查好 那麼那我們接下來就進入逐條審查"},{"start":11587.492,"end":11613.158,"text":"本案系修正總共是處理一條就1223條請問有沒有意見就是說針對1223條那事實上我們總共有20個委員提案但是歸納起來大概就是有三種不同的版本那麼而且就是有18個委員的提案就是直接就是刪除"},{"start":11614.673,"end":11639.699,"text":"兄弟姐妹特留份第四款那麼另外兩個版本一個是林德福委員他的提案是將兄弟姐妹特留份的部分就限縮在如果是有曾經撫養被繼承人的事實或是繼承人身心障礙或無謀生能力受被繼承人撫養者的話那仍然是維持他的特留份"},{"start":11642.029,"end":11664.398,"text":"賴氏寶委員的提案則是刪除兄弟姊妹和祖父母的特留份 足以這三案那經過我們剛剛大家的討論那麼事實上因為法務部還要有一些時間去研議但是這個條文大部分我們委員是有共識的在政策方向上大家是一致的所以在這裡本席是"},{"start":11664.938,"end":11673.382,"text":"想請問就是各位委員們的看法如果說今天對於這個條文還沒有辦法確定的話是不是我們可以就保留送協商先請想法會委員就結論的部分我贊成主席的結論就先保留送協商但是我這次要提除了剛剛大家在這個詢答裡面所提到的問題因為我們這一次保留送協商是單一這個條文"},{"start":11694.412,"end":11710.485,"text":"至於這個法務部所提的剛剛所提的其他的配套包括這些所謂貢獻份的討論或者是這個配偶居住權這些相關的這個顯然沒有辦法塞在這個條文裡面也就是說保留送鞋商之後你們這個配套也沒有辦法放進來討論也沒辦法放進來討論"},{"start":11717.13,"end":11730.836,"text":"這個部分齁這個我希望說第一個就是你們要這個配套因為我們這一條顯然在我們協商期過了之後應該就會達成共識就會做修正但是你其他的配套你沒有沒有的話會"},{"start":11733.861,"end":11757.449,"text":"問題也許也許不是很大但是真的還是會有問題就是他會在例如說以這個林德福委員的案子為例就是說他的這些兄弟姐妹裡面他有有身心障礙沒有謀生能力的或者是他事實上有長期撫養的事實的這些兄弟姐妹他在這個你們還沒有其他的配套這些貢獻份這些相關的修法沒有提出來但是他的特留份卻被刪除了"},{"start":11758.97,"end":11765.926,"text":"這個就有個空窗期即使是兩個月也好 半年也好這半年裡面這些人的權益就受到損害了"},{"start":11767.567,"end":11791.824,"text":"這個你們如果不加速立法的話到時候這個部分就會發生問題這個第一個要請法務部等一下做個回應就是說如果我們今天保留送協商那麼你們接下來你說在這個會期結束之前預告到你通過到送進立法院裡面大概時間還要再三個月兩三個月應該跑不掉"},{"start":11793.085,"end":11798.189,"text":"到下個會期去了這中間的空窗期裡面我剛剛講的這個狀況它變成權益受損這些無謀生能力這些有適時撫養適時撫養適時的這些兄弟姊妹他的權益受損"},{"start":11808.943,"end":11822.259,"text":"這個部分要請法務部要考量另外即使只修這一條也有幾個問題我覺得說是不是我們能夠在協商期到之前我們法務部能夠有什麼樣的意見就針對這一條第一個就是"},{"start":11826.204,"end":11842.506,"text":"就是這個有關於這個他目前的這個各款的順序的問題順序其實我們目前的立法例的順序是有問題的他跟外國的這些立法例雖然他的順序不影響他的權力但是他的立法結構是有問題的"},{"start":11843.487,"end":11860.92,"text":"因為你在1138條裡面,配偶之外的繼承人,配偶之外的繼承人這些是有血緣關係的,它有一個順序第一個是直系血清非親屬,第二個父母,第三兄弟姊妹,第四組父母"},{"start":11864.322,"end":11890.263,"text":"顯然在這個1138條裡面它的順序祖父母是在兄弟姊妹之後的但是我們卻把第三款的特留份去掉在第四款的特留份如果保留那就在立法體系上會變得很奇怪理論上如果要做這樣子的修法是不是在1138條它應該要配合修正把1138條的祖父母提到第三把兄弟姊妹降到第四"},{"start":11891.484,"end":11917.608,"text":"這樣才會符合立法體力雖然權益上面沒有影響但符合立法體力就變成兄弟姊妹繼承順序在祖父母之後才會他的特留份被拿掉祖父母特留份保留嘛對不對這是第一個順序問題第二個我們目前現行的這個今天要修的這個1223條裡面他的這個配偶的特留份是放在第三款"},{"start":11918.308,"end":11922.362,"text":"但是1138他的配偶是在所有繼承人之前"},{"start":11923.908,"end":11948.333,"text":"所以這個順序上面顯然也是立法的體力是有漢格的理論上這次修如果要修我們應該順便是不是就順便就把配偶提到第一順位他已符合1138條的體力這個在協商期之後我想如果真的我們只要如果我們委員真的堅持只要單獨修這一條不等"},{"start":11950.333,"end":11977.48,"text":"法務部的其他配套的話那至少是不是在那時候修法的時候這部分請我們委員會能夠納入考量再來第三個就是法務部其實有委託學者研究學者研究出來有一個條文我有看到這個條文它基本上是仿日本的立法它的立法其實整個文字"},{"start":11978.76,"end":12000.754,"text":"他在第一項的前面他就說兄弟姊妹以外是繼承人其特留份應依下列籍款規定這是你們研究報告裡面的建議的立法體例這樣子的立法體例事實上是比較好的因為在1138條裡面所有的繼承人大家都有特留份但是在123條裡面卻兄弟姊妹不見了"},{"start":12002.145,"end":12028.039,"text":"那他用這一條文字增加這一款的文字來說明為什麼就是說這一款就在規定兄弟姊妹以外的繼承人的特留份這個修法方向是不是如果最後我們只要單修這一條是不是能夠有提出相關的對案來做這樣子的調整以上我個人是贊成主席的結論但是我希望剛剛我所提的這些問題能夠在法務部在我們最後"},{"start":12029.579,"end":12044.108,"text":"這個協商期完成大家要進行協商之前能夠就這些部分表示意見 以上好 謝謝那個孫委員的這個說明那接下來我們剛剛是許委員先舉手 請許與曾委員先發言"},{"start":12045.205,"end":12062.132,"text":"謝謝主席針對剛剛主席提議的就是要保留送協商本席沒有意見但是在這邊我要特別的請教一下事實上因為剛剛法務部是說還要等到會期結束之前才能把相關的配套"},{"start":12062.632,"end":12084.939,"text":"那當然說在這個相關的配套因為我看你們的這個議題研修小組的結論會有三個階段嘛包括特留分跟貢獻分還有遺囑相關的修正條文還有其他本部重新彙整105年的民法繼承篇的相關的這個修正條文所以看起來是非常多的條文要一起那其實我們今天其實只有其中的一條喔是不是能夠是"},{"start":12087.543,"end":12108.097,"text":"我等一下講完可能請這個次長再特別然後另外其實像我們的這個委員裡面有人提到說是針對有少數兄弟姊妹照顧的個案應該是要照顧到他那但是我想請教一下說這個部分是不是可以依照民法第1149條請求佐給遺產"},{"start":12112.08,"end":12134.422,"text":"那如果不行的話那是不是要用什麼樣的方式那當然我們現在是主張要刪除民法第1223的第4條的這個相關的特留份的規定其實就是希望說這個已經將近百年的這樣子的一個條文能夠讓它符合現在真正現在現有的環境那所以也希望說法務部是不是能夠加速這個"},{"start":12136.023,"end":12152.116,"text":"對 你們提出配套的一個時程要不然的話 就像我們今天保留送人箱一個月之後可能就會開始有這個協商的時候也許 萬一通過之後 那你們即使你們的配套也沒辦法納進來的狀況之下那我們要怎麼來處理這個問題 謝謝好 那麼接下來請曾委員發言不好意思 我先處理一下那個會議時間今天我們中午不休息 然後上午會議時間就繼續進行好 來請"},{"start":12164.926,"end":12190.424,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想我一樣對於主席剛剛的結論沒有任何的意見那當然一樣是在我剛剛的質詢裡面其實我也特別提到有關於貢獻份的部分然後還有就是說剛剛兩位委員也其實都有提到就是說我們對於這個現實上就是有一些特殊的身心狀況的孩子或者是身心障礙或是因為重大疾病而造成他沒有謀生能力需要靠家庭來支持的那這些人在現實生活裡都不是少數"},{"start":12191.204,"end":12217.076,"text":"所以這些人在這一次的修法通過之後如何來確保他們這些的權益可以被保障我覺得這個其實是需要把不同的處境都要來納入來做評估才能夠找到一個比較周延的方式不然我覺得這些人可能最後就會實質的受到一些影響所以剛剛因為其實在法務部在剛剛我的質詢裡面其實有提到說他們是在會期結束的時候才會預告那我覺得剛剛其實兩位委員都有提到這個其實是太慢了"},{"start":12217.256,"end":12234.836,"text":"所以待會還是要請法務部更明確的讓大家知道說我們應該如何的來去處理這件事情那我覺得這才能夠去確保我們不會有一些弱勢的族群受到影響那再來針對林德福委員的提案裡面呢他特別把兄弟姐妹拉出來要符合這些條件"},{"start":12235.957,"end":12260.463,"text":"我覺得這邊有一個疑問啦就是說為什麼只有兄弟姊妹特別被拉出來必須符合這些條件才能夠取得特留份這是我的問題因為其他的順序繼承人如果不是這樣那針對於兄弟姊妹有額外的標準那這樣子的差別待遇會不會因為標準不夠清楚不夠合理我覺得都會造成一些問題所以我想這個部分我自己是蠻有疑慮的啦那我不曉得說法務部對這一條的看法又是什麼我想聽聽看 謝謝"},{"start":12264.187,"end":12291.723,"text":"那個剛剛是不是陳昭志委員有要發言好請謝謝我先就原則上的問題因為今天這麼多委員提出了大概20個版本那早上我在質詢的時候也是有請教法務部有這麼多的版本那大家也聽你們也聽到了一些意見跟想法但是因為一直又說我們有開了第一次會議專家會議然後準備開第二次那我一直希望說有一個明確的一個進度而且在國發會的這個"},{"start":12292.984,"end":12301.232,"text":"公共意見的這個平台上面也聚集了很多的這個意見我是希望這個法務部能夠加速啦因為我自己的人工選舉法被擱這20年我都覺得無法想像我沒有想到這個部分這個民法居然被放置了100年將近100年都"},{"start":12308.038,"end":12319.006,"text":"沒有人去盤點關心或要做一個更新這個是第一個 我希望就是說我可以支持今天是保留這些條款然後把剛剛的疑慮等等趕快禁訴 但是要有個時辰不是說我們在演繹中或我們會繼續開會第二個有關剛剛幾位同事們提到的弱勢的兄弟姊妹當然法務部也有提出這個觀念"},{"start":12334.036,"end":12359.371,"text":"弱勢的兄弟姊妹被撫養的問題其實某個程度它是個假議題假問題因為這些兄弟姊妹之所以會有特留份是因為被繼承人沒有子女父母又雙亡所以這些前順位的有繼承權的人都不存在那兄弟姊妹才有繼承權的發生所以弱勢的兄弟姊妹的撫養應該不是應該不應該是依照這個特留份"},{"start":12360.932,"end":12377.948,"text":"來處理啦 就這一點我表達我的意見那我是支持今天保留送出委員會但是我們要求法務部對於這個法的送出 送到行政院送到立法院來 這個時程今天一定要說一個清楚 好 謝謝好 謝謝 好好再請那個省法會委員"},{"start":12382.725,"end":12409.788,"text":"不好意思我補充一下因為剛剛在講的過程中有口誤了所以我這邊做一個修正以避免造成誤違就是說我剛剛講說1138條他繼承人的順序我說這個祖父母跟兄弟姊妹不是說祖父母跟兄弟姊妹調整這部分不能調整調整之後會影響到其他部分所以我的意思是說因為因應這個1138條他的這個順序所以我是認為我是贊成我們這個法務部所提出來的那個"},{"start":12411.13,"end":12429.026,"text":"這個學者不是提出來說什麼委託學者所做的那樣子的修正就是把兄弟姊妹放到這個第一項你說兄弟姊妹以外之繼承人在123條裡面兄弟姊妹以外之繼承人他的特留分的規定應該照這樣子的修正不是要去修正138條一座以上修正"},{"start":12430.623,"end":12446.446,"text":"好那麼謝謝那接下來是不是可以請那個黃次長這邊需不需要做些回應那我需要先講就是說因為剛剛這個很多的委員都已經有提到大家不太能夠認同就法務部要提出你們的版本一直要到這個會期結束"},{"start":12447.226,"end":12468.874,"text":"之前然後才有可能會提出更何況現在就是說很多的法案然後法令案都押在行政院行政院他這公文不批然後他不去加速去審查的話其實對就算法務部你們已經把法案送到行政院但是因為這個法案沒有經過行政院院會的同意通過也是出不來"},{"start":12469.474,"end":12486.049,"text":"所以呢其實希望說剛剛大家原本都有共識希望法務部能夠加速你們的法案的提出那我們接下來可能會有一個月的政黨協商的時間然後能夠盡量在這個階段裡面提出你們的對案好嗎好來請"},{"start":12488.977,"end":12515.797,"text":"跟各位報告那各位剛才都提到要加速這整個修法的時程這本部絕對會遵從只是說立法它修法它有一定的期程那這個法它如果送到行政院之後它還要經過行政院會的審查還要會嫌司法院再送大院所以它有一定的這個客觀上的時間上的一個需求所以本部在這個才會提就是說我們在這個因為我們下個月"},{"start":12517.278,"end":12532.344,"text":"這個四月中就要召開第二次會議了嘛那剩下大概一兩月的時間我們就把草案寫出來就進行預告的程序所以才提出這個期程要不然的話的確會有剛剛委員講到的就是說我們今天如果把兄弟檢驗退留份刪掉就過的話那之後"},{"start":12533.024,"end":12549.397,"text":"法務部的配套措施再進來的話會產生時間差的規定不同會產生平等權的問題為什麼之前的會有特留份之前的沒有特留份之後我們過了又有特留份這個時間差會產生兄弟姐妹之間有撫養事實的時間差的不違反平等原則的問題"},{"start":12556.263,"end":12584.682,"text":"所以這部分要請大院來考慮啦另外剛剛的委員有提到就是說如果大院要刪除這一個兄弟姊妹1223的第四款的特留份的話兄弟姊妹特留份的部分那本部的文字上建議也是比較贊成就把配偶的部分提到最上面來啦而不是按照現有單純把它刪掉配偶又夾在中間這很怪就把配偶提到最上位依序的往下排這個如果文字上要進行這樣的刪除"},{"start":12586.683,"end":12613.311,"text":"機械式把它刪掉這樣那這是立法上的建議啦那剛剛委員有提到立法建議就是說是不是要採我們研究版本的就是說除兄弟姊妹以外的繼承人這個加在這個前面那個帽子啦那這個我們在整個研修過程中有討論過這個立法的技術啦這個立法技術後來不採的原因是說除兄弟姊妹以外的繼承人那好像兄弟姊妹還有其他的繼承人的方式"},{"start":12614.111,"end":12641.837,"text":"還有其他的方式要去找事實上沒有我們就整個沒他沒有特留份嘛我們如果調整起來除兄弟妹妹以外之繼承人外好像還有兄弟妹妹有一個特殊的規定在哪裡事實上沒有我們就把它刪掉而已所以後來我們整個這個研修的過程當中就不贊成這個我們維修研究案的這一個條文要刪的話就直接把這個第四款刪掉調次把那個配偶的提到最最上面來最上面來"},{"start":12642.737,"end":12657.077,"text":"好那剛剛另外有委員有提到的就林德福林委員的版本就是說在前面加個條件要件的部分加要件這部分我在我們的報告裡面其實有說明那為什麼只有兄弟姐妹有要件那其他的記者為什麼"},{"start":12659.139,"end":12687.37,"text":"他的特留分就不需要要件這第一個第二個他是一個全有跟全無的概念一旦符合就全有要不然不符合就全無他沒有中間一個彈性的一個空間所以說就單這個零得分零版本就這一個特留分的部分三特留分設一個要件設在前面本部是不贊成這種立法模式好另外剛剛委員有提到就是說若是兄弟姐妹之間撫養的問題他不是特留分的問題對啊"},{"start":12689.411,"end":12707.702,"text":"但是三求特留分之後就會產生弱勢的兄弟姐妹之間互相撫養的問題所以我們本部才一直在主張要配套我消極的被繼承人撫養的兄弟姐妹你要不要給我一個遺產 佐給請求權我已經沒有特留分了我是被你撫養的你可不可以給我遺產請求權 這是第一個積極的撫養他的 我撫養他的"},{"start":12715.687,"end":12723.911,"text":"那你要不要給我特留份 貢獻份 貢獻份所以消極積極才需要去做一個配套我們一直主張是這樣以上回應好 那麼這個經過今天大家剛剛的詢答還有逐條審查的討論我想還是希望能夠等到法務部這邊有個更具體的意見"},{"start":12739.878,"end":12765.687,"text":"我們就1223條的條文經過逐條討論之後我們就還是決議保留送協商好不好保留送協商那麼本案逐條已經處理完畢那就接下來做以下的宣告本案必須要交由黨團協商院會討論的時候就由本席來出席說明"},{"start":12767.352,"end":12793.962,"text":"各位報告還有那個施行法的部分接下來還有進行討論事項第二案那我們接下來就審查民法繼承偏施行法增訂第12條的條文草案請問在場委員本案是否也省略了大體討論我們就直接進入主條討論好嗎就只有吳宗憲委員的他所提出的民法繼承偏施行法增訂第12條條文草案我們可以就同意省略大體討論嗎"},{"start":12795.356,"end":12806.023,"text":"好的那麼接下來我們就繼續審查民法繼承偏施行法增訂第12條條文草案那麼先請宣讀宣讀過了那繼續我們就進行主條討論請問在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12810.322,"end":12832.46,"text":"因為這個主要是針對施行的日期是請沈委員我想這個是針對這個1223條的修法的配套那我們既然這個修法的條文都保留了我們是這個也保留這條也保留一併協商那就請問在座的委員有沒有意見我們是不是這條就也保留送協商好的謝謝"},{"start":12835.731,"end":12861.812,"text":"那麼本案的主條也已經處理完畢了所以就做以下宣告那本案需要交由黨團協商院會討論的時候也是有本席來出席說明那麼今天本次的會議議程所立的事項都已經處理完畢了那非常謝謝各位今天這個討論的非常的愉快而且也都提出很具體的意見那本次會議就到此結束那現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}