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辦理收支保管勞動基金運用局辦理運用與管理但是任何重大的國家投資都必須接受公開檢驗不不提醒少子化成因複雜越階段變"},{"start":845.866,"end":854.639,"text":"更需要即時性的現金補助與托育服務支持現行弱勢兒少教育發展帳戶推動8年多累計開戶39,127人整體開戶率為65%也反映制度可經用性與銜接性的現實問題"},{"start":862.67,"end":889.156,"text":"勞動部指出若有勞保局勞軍局承接這將是全新增設的戰火管理業務不只是經費問題還涉及政策目的制度分工人工與資訊系統等整體配套必須審慎評估此外學者也提出重要提醒若制度缺乏累進設計可能產生馬太效應若這經常期鎖定到18歲也未必能對準年輕家庭最迫切的育兒壓力"},{"start":890.416,"end":909.111,"text":"因此今天公聽會將依照四個正式的提綱來討論第一 政策目的與對象設定第二 管理跨部會分工全責第三 與教育就業及脫貧政策的長期銜接第四 對少子女化育兒負擔與育兒照顧政策的實質效果"},{"start":910.032,"end":932.813,"text":"希望透過今天的對話讓這部草案不只停留在理念倡議而是進一步釐清他要解決什麼問題資源應該如何配置制度應該如何補強才能真正成為下一代負責的政策方案現在介紹在場委員林月琴委員"},{"start":940.703,"end":960.513,"text":"王振旭委員學者專家蔡明芳教授陳承斌處長陳志彥董事長陳學樺律師"},{"start":971.504,"end":989.701,"text":"蕭東元理事長葉崇洋教授聶建忠教授補充介紹我們廖偉祥委員"},{"start":998.67,"end":1018.106,"text":"現在介紹我們政府官員 衛生福利部政務次長呂健德市公司司長蘇昭如社家署署長周道軍國發會處長張復林人力發展處專委沈志勳主計總處專委陳淑萍"},{"start":1030.578,"end":1053.303,"text":"負稅署副署長倪麗欣國庫署專委羅瑞宏政見期貨局專委蔡怡倩我們勞保局副局長李靖韻國民年金組組長吳維陽企劃集合組組長陳忠良"},{"start":1061.031,"end":1086.218,"text":"學權教育署副署長徐立堅保護部參社灣南軍補充介紹台大社工系鄭麗珍教授接下來請衛生福利部代表報告"},{"start":1090.698,"end":1117.884,"text":"歡迎理事長主席各位委員女士各位先生今天大院第11屆第5次社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開台灣未來賬戶特別條例草案公聽會本部呈邀列席資救本部相關的業務部分提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1119.167,"end":1140.868,"text":"少子女化曾經複雜非單一政策所能解決且考量兒少於不同成長階段所需的需求差異在幼兒階段以現金補助以及托育服務等即時性的支持為主協助家庭減輕育兒負擔提升生養意願回應少子女化之迫切挑戰並強化長期發展支持"},{"start":1145.779,"end":1169.88,"text":"我國自民國106年起實施兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶透過帳戶制度及資產累積機制協助弱勢兒少累積教育及就業發展所需資源以落實社會投資之理念行政院也結合了各部會資源於107年起核定我國小子女化對策計畫107至114年並自"},{"start":1173.853,"end":1200.864,"text":"2015年起根據推動第二期的計畫透過力挺鼓勵青年生育有感減輕育兒負擔友善職場生生不息支持婚育家庭之穩定居住政策強化孕產婦及兒童照顧品質等五大面向有關降低育兒家庭經濟負擔及完善幼兒照顧之因應措施說明如下第一"},{"start":1202.386,"end":1210.221,"text":"降低育兒家庭經濟負擔落實0至6歲國家一起養持續發放育兒津貼及托育補助"},{"start":1211.257,"end":1240.617,"text":"提高托育量能及精进评价、教保服务,布建临时托育资源及建立预约平台,缓解家长需兼顾工作与育儿压力,推动公立幼儿园平日课后延长照顾服务时间及寒暑期家托服务。第二,完善幼儿照顾,加强新手父母育儿指导服务,协助家庭增进育儿知能及照顾技巧,确保儿童身心、"},{"start":1241.738,"end":1255.296,"text":"健全发展积极在各地布建亲子馆托育资源中心以提供家长托育咨询婴幼儿课程亲子教育等多元育儿支持的服务共同支持家庭育儿"},{"start":1256.914,"end":1280.824,"text":"此外 资产累积的脱贫模式是广为各地方政府及地监及民间单位所采用而本部也参考了先进国家的经验自106年起推动了儿童及少年未来教育及发展账户帮助低收入中低收入家庭的孩子以及长期安置的儿少以1比1的提拨"},{"start":1281.977,"end":1303.265,"text":"共同存款的方式 為兒少設立個人專屬帳戶參與家庭可依經濟狀況每月選擇自存500 1250每年最高可以存入15000元而政府則以一堆1比1的存入提撥兒少18歲最高就可以存54萬"},{"start":1305.325,"end":1316.965,"text":"作為其接受高等教育、職業訓練及就業、創業等用途而該帳戶的存款不影響其福利資格也不列入不動產或收入的計算"},{"start":1318.373,"end":1341.611,"text":"而另外也針對了三至六月未存款者社工員透過訪視輔導依家戶的需求提供短期工作機會理財教育 親子教育 食物給付及經濟補助等配套措施協助開戶家庭可以排除其存款障礙強化其自立能力"},{"start":1342.572,"end":1352.9,"text":"面對少子女化所帶來的各項結構化的挑戰本部持續依兒少發展階段及家庭多元需求差異兼顧及時支持與長期發展強化對經濟弱勢兒少及一般兒少支持精進制度"},{"start":1363.421,"end":1377.049,"text":"設計及擴大政策效果之方向演繹未來也將持續以全生命歷程及社會投資等視角及兼顧財政紀律與公平配置從托育居住"},{"start":1378.427,"end":1396.416,"text":"教育及職場支持等多方面的面向逐步建構更友善且具任性的成家與育兒環境本部依大院各委員之指教及監督在此謹誌謝誠並期各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝補充介紹國教行動聯盟理事中軍委"},{"start":1410.325,"end":1424.7,"text":"國立評論科技大學教授林鴻陽國立政治大學主任教授鄭麗軒接下來請國發會代表報告"},{"start":1441.144,"end":1459.691,"text":"主席各位委員與會的專家學者一個先進跟女士先生們大家好今天很榮幸邀到社福社會福利及衛生環境委員會來針對今天要討論的台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案來進行報告進行各位委員先進不定資料"},{"start":1461.091,"end":1483.684,"text":"台灣未來賬戶特別條例這個案子的話我們在立法院這邊所提的草案內容主要是針對102年9月2號以後出生的未滿12歲以下然後建議由政府提撥資金開立台灣未來賬戶那這個部分主要是要接受對於兒童在兒童滿18歲時方可提領來接受教育職業訓練創業等的用途"},{"start":1485.815,"end":1515.035,"text":"事實上為了協助弱勢兒少資產累積跟教育發展在行政部門已經由衛福部自106年起來推動兒童及少年未來教育發展帳戶針對105年以後出生的低收入戶中低收入戶等弱勢兒少設立專屬帳戶由政府跟弱勢教育體系來共同存款開戶的兒少於年滿18歲後一樣可以提醒作為高等教育跟子訓就業之用"},{"start":1515.915,"end":1531.08,"text":"那因為這樣的情形下來講其實在面對我們現在大家所關心的少子女化議題的因應策略的部分行政院現在是已經由陳時中政務委員督導跨部會的專案會議同和衛福部、教育部等相關部會"},{"start":1531.98,"end":1536.424,"text":"在115年除了從107年開始的推動少子化對策計畫以來115年也持續配合新的政策跟環境的因應的狀況底下持續推動少子化對策的2.0這個計畫那包含了育兒津貼"},{"start":1549.395,"end":1571.571,"text":"提供评价托育供给精进评价教保服务等0到6岁国家一起养的2.0政策措施之外来完善幼儿照顾同时也透过提高人工生殖补助新增医疗生育保存补助提供各类之类的保险生育给付的差额补助并提高幼儿学前特别扣除而减轻家长育儿的负担"},{"start":1572.412,"end":1588.649,"text":"另外為了協助家長工作跟生活衡平也有新增育兒育嬰留職停薪以日申請家庭照顧假以時申請以及鼓勵企業ESG報告揭露友善職場婚育等相關配套策略那事實上行政院掃證語化對策2.0計畫"},{"start":1591.314,"end":1614.17,"text":"透過政務委員督導的這個跨部會的會議從孕、養育、住職五大面向已經都有著手而且積極的強化友善家庭育兒措施未來將持續滾動檢討調整至於有關今天所談的台灣未來丈夫特別條例草案因為涉及到的是政府照顧兒童措施還有財政資源"},{"start":1614.83,"end":1643.539,"text":"甚至包括弱勢民眾負擔的公益性跟公平性帳戶管理運用妥適性等面向行政院已經有請衛部等權責機關從整體政策角度綜合考量來研議規劃所以我們今天也很榮幸有這個機會來這個公聽會的場合聽取各位先進跟委員們的一個意見那我們會做綜合的考量來回報給院裡面來做一個政策的一個參考以上報告敬請指教謝謝大家"},{"start":1646.345,"end":1665.877,"text":"謝謝國發會本次會議部會及學者專家所提供的相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報與會人員發言前先先告一下事項學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間6分鐘為簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席主席台右邊的發言台"},{"start":1666.778,"end":1688.608,"text":"言則上有學者專家先行一千道順序發言委員如要發言請到主席台登記我們會議委員登記發言順序及學者專家發言順序交錯安排進行全部人員發言完畢後再請行政機關做整體回應暫定十點半休息十分鐘現在請第一位廖偉翔委員發言"},{"start":1704.158,"end":1720.385,"text":"好謝謝主席感謝盧憲義召委安排這一次的公聽會那各位委員各位專家學者各位行政部門的夥伴朋友今天我想要先從兩個數字開始這個不好意思這個還沒有還沒有轉這個沒有變好我想要先從兩個數字開始就是"},{"start":1728.632,"end":1748.413,"text":"5931億以及107000那過去8年呢我們以補貼為主的少子化政策投入了將近6000億結果呢結果就是去年新生兒只剩下107000人史上最低那年減是20%那婦產科醫學會呢更預估今年可能會跌破8萬"},{"start":1749.714,"end":1770.832,"text":"那我想政府應該誠實面對的一個問題這是補貼模式本身的結構性天花板那少子化趨勢恐怕短期內難以逆轉但正因為如此我們更需要確保每一位出生的孩子都有向上流動的最大可能這也是今天討論台灣未來帳戶的核心意義"},{"start":1773.614,"end":1801.218,"text":"雖然常常這個行政部門說少子化不是說一個政策就可以解決沒有錯我們需要多種政策工具那今天討論的是其中一種那我們也必須誠實面對過去的補貼有其托底的功能但是天花板已經到了那現行的兒少發展賬戶推動了8年開戶率大概就是66%等於每三個符合資格的弱勢兒童就有一個是沒有參與的那存款金額也逐年的下降"},{"start":1801.798,"end":1824.326,"text":"越來越多的家庭只存最低的500塊而且最關鍵的問題是這些錢只能放定存那報酬率長期低於通膨18年來下來這個實質購買力不增反減這是一個很少人提的問題叫做還有一個問題就是標籤化效應你要申請這個賬戶某種程度上就是承認自己是弱勢"},{"start":1825.166,"end":1843.073,"text":"而且很多的邊緣戶的家庭也因為自尊心就可能不參加了排富設計實際上把最需要幫助的人擋在門外那年輕人不婚不生的核心原因不是不喜歡小孩是有一個最深層的經濟恐懼還有階級複製的焦慮以及育兒成本的長期壓力那我想年輕人"},{"start":1846.974,"end":1859.851,"text":"怕的不是養不起喔 也怕的是翻不了身那補貼呢只能維持底線所以我們必須要從所謂救濟或補貼的思維要升級到投資喔 要升級到投資"},{"start":1862.332,"end":1887.214,"text":"那今天要討論的台灣未來賬戶本質上是思維的轉換那台灣未來賬戶提供了一個制度的轉型的契機從過去短期分散的補貼思維轉向對於未來勞動力的長期投資而且並且建立制度化的資產累積機制與長期人力資本回報的社會投資所以這不僅是有效"},{"start":1888.114,"end":1900.2,"text":"有助於強化政策的一致性與公平性也能夠降低對於單次補助的依賴從消費型的補貼轉向長期人力資本回報的社會投資"},{"start":1901.516,"end":1921.301,"text":"那它四個核心的設計呢第一個是普遍性0到12歲全體兒童大約是226萬人不排富不瞄簽不漏接任何一個案子任何一個孩子那第二是國家啟動每一個孩子出生就有5萬元的啟動金之後每一年政府撥補1萬元到12歲"},{"start":1923.542,"end":1943.187,"text":"而弱勢家庭不需要自提一毛錢就能享有這筆國家投資那第三是集中管理類似勞退基金的模式追蹤台股大盤指數那管理費的上限0.1%不用家長自己選基金不用擔心被金融機構收高額的手續費"},{"start":1944.619,"end":1962.999,"text":"第四限定用途那18歲以後才能提領那限於教育啦 技職訓練啦 創業啦購物自備款那我們要確保這筆錢真正用在改變人生起跑點的關鍵時刻那這個就不是發糖果而是國家為了下一代存第一桶金"},{"start":1964.821,"end":1980.428,"text":"好那國際上有沒有先例呢有也有踩過的坑所以我們要從別人的坑學到更多英國在2005年推的兒童信託基金那因為去中心化管理因為高額的管理費因為帳戶休眠三個設計的問題在2011年的時候財政緊縮的時候被停辦了"},{"start":1986.618,"end":2003.526,"text":"那英國兒童線頭基金到現在還有3000億台幣規模的資金殘留在體系內那其中呢75萬8000個帳戶沒有人認領所以我們這一次的設計正是針對這三個問題逐一修正剛剛有提到的中央集中管理"},{"start":2004.146,"end":2021.493,"text":"還有管理費壓低到0.1%然後還有政府主動追蹤通知再來新加坡的兒童帳戶從2001年運作至今不斷加碼擴大那去年還把第三胎的啟動金翻了一倍那成功的關鍵就是出生及開戶再來政府主動啟動還有搭配配套的生態系"},{"start":2024.494,"end":2040.803,"text":"那全球有3200萬的孩子已經在用台灣還在討論而且華盛頓大學的SEED OK的隨機對照實驗也清楚的證實普遍性加上累計累進性的設計效果是最好的"},{"start":2041.423,"end":2063.415,"text":"那再來算一個賬這個愛因斯坦曾經說富力是世界的第八大奇蹟那從孩子出生到18歲成年這長達18年的光陰正是時間富力發揮最大威力的黃金期所以簡單算給大家看即便在最保守的情境年報酬只有4%一個孩子到18歲也能累積近25萬元"},{"start":2065.496,"end":2083.812,"text":"用草案的基本假設6%是34萬如果有能力的家長每年額外存1萬的話可以到達56萬那對於高收入家庭來講這個數字影響有限但是對於弱勢的家庭的孩子即便不自提一毛錢這筆錢也足以改變他的命運"},{"start":2085.353,"end":2093.122,"text":"學費 執訓 創業的第一桶金所以看看這個規模感台電相關的撥補兩年也超過4000億國防特別預算8年是1.25兆TFA13年是4500億年均不到350億那我不是說剛剛這些支出不重要我是說這個規模難道"},{"start":2106.716,"end":2123.68,"text":"國家負擔不起嗎投資下一代投資國家未來競爭力難道國家不願意負擔嗎其實國家是負擔得起的所以最後我知道還有主要三個疑慮我先回應一下第一個所謂的財政排擠那我理解主基礎的擔心TFA是具有長期人力資本報酬的資本回報的社會投資"},{"start":2126.651,"end":2153.82,"text":"這不是我說的是學術界也對於很多兒童帳戶發展的共識的定位那第一年1130億之後每年約250億佔國家年度的稅出不到1%所以裁員的部分草案設計可以用稅基剩餘和超徵稅收優先益助那當然細節歡迎等一下討論那真正的財政風險不是這筆投資是出生人數每年崩跌未來沒有勞動力和稅基所以我們需要趕快來做"},{"start":2155.14,"end":2171.3,"text":"那第二為什麼不排富因為八年的經驗告訴我們排富的結果是每三個弱勢兒童就有一個沒有參與標籤化也讓別人互退縮行政的集合成本也很高普遍性不只是公平它是效率更重要的是不排富不是對有錢人慷慨是對於確保窮人不被漏接"},{"start":2174.904,"end":2201.024,"text":"第三英國不是停辦了嗎是的是但是英國停辦是因為執行的設計問題加上財政緊縮不是因為理念錯誤喔所以我們的設計呢是針對已經針對這個去中心化高管理費跟賬戶休眠三個關鍵問題做了系統性的修正怕花錢是本能喔但是不投資下一代才是浪費所以最後呢我希望呼籲大家喔不同黨派的委員其實呢"},{"start":2201.764,"end":2223.38,"text":"也有提出各自的版本的這個兒童投資帳戶那這代表什麼代表為下一代投資這個方向已經有跨黨派的共識基礎我們不需要在這個議題上面對立今天在座的每一位不管是什麼黨派或者是哪一個專業領域我相信我們都有一個共同的信念就是對於台灣的下一代值得比現在更好的起跑點"},{"start":2224.341,"end":2249.524,"text":"那維持現狀才是最大的財政風險那這就是我們黨團提出的法案但它不應該屬於任何的政黨因為這是我們這一代人對下一代的責任謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員的發言補充介紹台北大學社工系教授陳芬玲國人大學高雄醫學大學和平教授陳一鳴"},{"start":2253.427,"end":2262.43,"text":"民船大學助理教授李麗玲第二位委員登記的是鄭麗珍教授大家早"},{"start":2282.554,"end":2301.144,"text":"好我每次這個時候都會覺得沒有回應啦好那今天就是非常高興被這個立法院來邀請來對這個資產累積概念與運用做一個討論那剛剛那個廖委員在報告的時候有提到這個美國的"},{"start":2304.405,"end":2324.74,"text":"Michael Stratton推動這個資產累積的一個理論然後以及用這個儲蓄賬戶作為一個工具來協助這個兒童去做一些儲蓄的一些動作那我正好就是這個老師的學生好"},{"start":2326.946,"end":2352.3,"text":"就是拉一下關係好 那首先呢資產累積福利模式的理論根據這個Michael Sheridan教授他所提的主要是他提出一個不再去找這個貧窮的原因直接去找一個到底可以怎麼做這樣的一個制度化的政策那這個政策被認為有兼顧到經濟與社會發展的一個觀點"},{"start":2356.562,"end":2382.425,"text":"那用這個資產累積的這個概念而不是用過去我們只是在尋求提供這個補助給低收然後維持他最起碼的經濟收入這樣的一個概念他是希望在這個收入維持以上再提供一些投資的概念那希望這個低收的家戶能夠在這樣的"},{"start":2383.786,"end":2400.945,"text":"制度下能夠脫離一些貧窮的風險那再來就是這個政策因為直接就是聚焦在資產的累積所以它具有一個再分配還有普及性的一種福利給付的概念"},{"start":2401.906,"end":2425.458,"text":"那但是推動多年以後其實我跟這個Michael Shredden教授我們都認為除了你做一個用一個儲蓄的工具去協助這些人之外他的這個認知能力也必須做一些改變所以在理財資能的促進這方面也是這幾年在推動的時候大家在討論的一個元素"},{"start":2426.158,"end":2444.427,"text":"好那資產累積為什麼採用資產累積的模式的理由第一個資產累積具有長期的效果那這個是有一些實證的基礎去追這個一些長期的資料看出來如果家裡有一些儲蓄的"},{"start":2446.028,"end":2467.663,"text":"這個投資的一些規劃通常他的兒童在長大之後會有比較好的機會那另外就是我們一般在談不均的時候我們比較容易談收入的不均但收入的不均其實無法反映家戶的一個金融的流動其實財富的不均才是最根本的"},{"start":2468.163,"end":2493.959,"text":"那在台灣也有這個現象我們收入的不均大概五六倍但是我們的財富不均可能可以高達十九二十倍所以這個是為什麼要從資產切入就是直接target這個財富分配不均的問題那另外一個當然儲蓄的行為越早開始是越好的那再來如果我們透過一些政策跟制度的"},{"start":2494.679,"end":2511.155,"text":"一些協助讓人民開始很早就開始累積自己未來的一個資產的話那這樣的一個效果是非常的好那這個是在美國有經過多項的實驗方案得到證實"},{"start":2513.424,"end":2531.364,"text":"那剛剛我看那個廖委員有提就是英國的這個child trust fund還有就是新加坡的baby bonus這兩個計畫但是其實全世界已經蠻多的地方都在推"},{"start":2532.245,"end":2552.202,"text":"那也有美國也在討論 美國一直在討論但是一直沒有很具體的在實施所謂的兒童的這個帳戶那他的目的都是要去解決這個兒童的貧窮的問題那我今天就是比較聚焦在英美兩國的這個政策因為這兩國的政策經常被其他國家所copy"},{"start":2557.506,"end":2580.592,"text":"那這個英國Charter Trust Fund是工黨的時候提出2005年4月實施那剛剛廖委員有對他做了一些評論主要應該是來自於很多的文獻的資料的支持但是2011年這個帳戶就做了就是不再開戶但是原來開戶的仍然留在裡面那麼"},{"start":2585.075,"end":2607.595,"text":"那這個2001年是因為政黨輪替這個是一個工黨的政策保守黨上台之後就把它做了停止但是也提出了另外一個政策叫Junior ISA來取代大致上沒有什麼太大的結構上改變只是換了一個名字但是這個政策當時在英國的"},{"start":2608.796,"end":2632.352,"text":"人民裡面算是支持率很高的一個政策特別是中產階級的家庭他們非常積極參與這樣的一個帳戶主要的原因是因為英國的稅很重那這個帳戶是免稅的帳戶所以蠻受到一般家庭的喜歡那美國一直以來從2003年開始就一直在規劃一個叫做Kids Account Affront"},{"start":2632.992,"end":2658.419,"text":"其實有一點像Child Trust Fund但是他們在國會的一些複雜的動力裡面一直沒有通過因為牽涉到可能這個各州執行的一些狀況那也牽涉到聯邦到底要撥多少的比例的經費所以很複雜但是我今天會再跟大家講一下就是說美國即便沒有KIDS ACCOUNT其實他們有另外一個帳戶叫做529"},{"start":2660.439,"end":2679.301,"text":"那529的帳戶是一個教育的儲蓄帳戶那英國的這個Trust Fund它的設計是一開始會有一個開戶的錢然後因為英國的大部分政策都是比較普及性的那所以每一個小朋友出生以後就會有一個這樣的帳戶"},{"start":2680.609,"end":2708.206,"text":"那政府就會撥款進去開戶有一個開戶金那他們對於低收是有特別的額外的補助譬如說他們在低收在7歲跟11歲的時候政府會撥入250英鎊的這個所謂的補充的基金但是他們並沒有像這個我們現在的兒少教育賬戶有1比1的相對配合款是沒有的"},{"start":2709.286,"end":2719.951,"text":"但是他們也鼓勵家長放一些錢進來但是怕大家會逃稅所以他定了一個上額叫1200英鎊所以家長可以把1200英鎊每年放進去這個帳戶幫小朋友儲蓄"},{"start":2725.453,"end":2743.898,"text":"那英國可以做到普及性是因為他們一直以來都有普及性的政策那麼出生之後去這個政府很容易就approach這個這個出生的小孩因為他們有一個普及性的政策叫兒童津貼兒童的津貼那兒童的津貼的"},{"start":2748.02,"end":2764.841,"text":"就是補這個政府可以怎麼講就是可以找到小孩而且給這個補助可以高達97%左右所以表示這個很多人都可以被這個政策所cover到那再來就是"},{"start":2766.889,"end":2778.361,"text":"他使用目的沒有限制那剛剛好像廖委員有提到他的那個推動比較特別就是他是交由各個銀行去做開戶的服務"},{"start":2780.055,"end":2798.062,"text":"還有就是由銀行來提供所謂的財務的理財的一些概念所以可能就是剛剛有批評說他沒有比較集中管理的確是因為對銀行來講這個其實是一個就是一個新的業務他可以多一些開戶的一些業務"},{"start":2799.483,"end":2826.32,"text":"那再來就是美國的KIDS ACCOUNT他的設計也是他也有這個對低收入戶做單次的補充基金那他低收入戶他們一直以來都希望走相對配合款的概念只是這個比例多少就一直在討論那他們私人的儲金的上限是1000美元那美國會設定這個教育購物跟退休要把這些錢用在這三項裡面"},{"start":2827.461,"end":2846.013,"text":"那在這個529美國還有一個帳戶叫529這個已經在了這個已經存在那這個529是一個叫做教育儲蓄帳戶那這個帳戶是自願開戶沒有任何的政府的補助政府只是負責幫你管理這個"},{"start":2847.933,"end":2871.921,"text":"帳戶那但是這個帳戶就是廣為這個中上階級中等階級跟比較上層社會的人會去用的一個帳戶那我自己弟妹在美國她是會計師她很快就發現這個帳戶她就立刻幫她的小朋友開戶了那這兩個帳戶是父母在每年有一個上限的儲蓄"},{"start":2872.501,"end":2897.402,"text":"那儲蓄之後沒有任何的配合款那麼就直接在小朋友高中或大學的時候就可以把它領取出來去支付學費文具或者是教育用的一些工具所以這個529的賬戶在Michael Sheridan的研究中心時間已經超過了抱歉沒關係 你再掌握時間好"},{"start":2899.738,"end":2912.152,"text":"好 那我儘快 那這個Michael Sheridan現在就在各地想辦法去希望529能夠reach到這個低收的這個部分所以他們用了很多相對配合款的設計來幫很多州去設計"},{"start":2915.075,"end":2931.393,"text":"那目前有好幾個州已經是普及性的那這個是台灣的兒少帳戶那他的是在105年開始推動那在目前有一個條例來管理這個帳戶那他的實施是仿效這個"},{"start":2933.475,"end":2948.927,"text":"美國的一些帳戶就是因為他是低收所以我們有相對配合款有開戶金那像剛剛大家有在講他的廖委員有提到他開戶目前開戶率大概六成多那原因當然是有一些原因那這個是應該如果我們對這個帳戶的沒有辦法完全開戶這件事"},{"start":2954.131,"end":2968.52,"text":"其實應該針對他目前實施的狀況去做討論因為目前像我就覺得為什麼還要再等大家自動來開戶如果這是一個好的政策應該是所有的低收都應該幫他開戶直接撥這個"},{"start":2972.122,"end":2999.731,"text":"開戶金進去 那有一些誘因的設計那我要講就說台灣推展兒童這個資產累積的模式是有一些理由 第一個是我們目前的經濟安全網確實不夠需要比較積極性的福利主義那再來就是我們一個台灣兩個世界兩代階級的差異其實蠻大我們需要一個更包容性的福利那再來就是我覺得資產不均的再分配問題應該被討論"},{"start":3001.551,"end":3015.832,"text":"那少子化老人化的這個人口變階目前待間的契約鬆動所以個人發展帳戶顯然有他的這個必要那今天討論這個未來帳戶我就是提一下我個人的一個"},{"start":3017.013,"end":3038.549,"text":"見解跟評論第一個我覺得發展帳戶它是一個工具那帳戶設計應該要反映政策的目的如果今天兒少的帳戶是不是能夠解決少子化問題目前唯一看起來只有新加坡的baby bonus好像有達到這樣的效果其他的國家的兒童帳戶"},{"start":3039.505,"end":3062.558,"text":"在解決少子化問題的這個實證上面的基礎是弱的那所以我們是不是要討論到底要怎麼來做那第二個就是我覺得今天如果我們請因為我自己在做這個政策我當然很高興這政策變成一個普及化的政策那但是因為他是一個志願參加你無法強制別人"},{"start":3063.297,"end":3090.733,"text":"要不要去開戶那如果沒有開戶的小朋友因為一樣你們會面對到底60%或70%這種開戶率那其他沒有開戶的小朋友你們要怎麼處理那為什麼我會這個憂慮因為我們不管哪一次我們發放這個什麼消費券啊發放什麼補助金從來都沒有辦法都會有一群小孩他就是沒有辦法領到這些錢很多的原因包括家長的問題"},{"start":3092.276,"end":3116.571,"text":"所以我覺得如果我們還有就是因為你們沒有沒有對這個低收做特殊的處理所以這個家戶資產不均的再分配效果並不會被回應那再來這個18歲以後未來賬戶的使用跟管理設計是什麼因為終究他有一天就是會到那到的話我們到底有沒有一些像"},{"start":3118.412,"end":3135.848,"text":"這個美國的KIDS ACCOUNT去設計說你要用在哪裡那再來就是金融理財是他們小朋友未來兒少有這筆錢之後他怎麼去使用這種認知的架構到底由誰來負責做這個教育的輸送好 我報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":3138.422,"end":3142.466,"text":"請大家把握時間現在歡迎第三位蔡明芳教授"},{"start":3161.618,"end":3188.153,"text":"主席還有理事長還有各位在座的學者專家還有媒體朋友大家早我是丹陽大學經濟系蔡明芳坦白講來談這個帳戶的政策的時候其實心裡還蠻沉重的沉重的原因我留在最後一張講這個帳戶或者是說現在政府既有的政策基本上大家就是看到少子女化的問題或者是世代貧富差距的問題"},{"start":3189.153,"end":3212.031,"text":"那所以如果要去解決少子女化的問題解決世代貧富差距的問題那我們就要就事論事看你現在提出來的這些政策可不可以去解決問題那第一個其實剛剛廖委員跟我換第一個發言他已經講得很清楚了政府現在花了大概五千多億投進去然後他覺得少子化沒有被解決"},{"start":3213.086,"end":3236.259,"text":"那為什麼五千多億少子化沒有辦法被解決十三年花四千多億少子化可以被解決這就是第一個問題我們現在看到這些育兒津貼、托育補助、租屋補助政府現在談的這些政策看起來在少子化上面大家對政府還是很不滿意那我如果給十八歲的青少年三十四萬或是剛剛呃律師長提到說最多到五十幾萬"},{"start":3238.13,"end":3263.344,"text":"這樣的錢可以去解決少子化嗎可以問問在場的每一位年輕人還有生小孩意願的會不會因為小孩在18歲多了五十幾萬你就可以解決少子化大概我想大家都知道不太可能那不太可能所以少子化的這個問題大概就遇到一些挑戰第二個減緩貧富差距的問題其實剛剛大家有在講剛剛第一位委員在發言的時候就有提到說到底要不要排富"},{"start":3264.325,"end":3268.938,"text":"其實有很多人談到排富的時候就是說不要排富或者是會加上所謂的資產平權"},{"start":3271.231,"end":3293.078,"text":"談資產平權的時候很麻煩你明明是要縮小貧富差距結果你卻在貧富差距的基礎上去談平權在貧富差距的基礎上繼續談平權就是怎樣就是繼續維持貧富差距甚至擴大貧富差距為什麼會擴大貧富差距因為我如果把錢再存到我小孩的帳戶裡我又可以減稅"},{"start":3294.438,"end":3309.247,"text":"對我薪水低的人來講成績都沒高啊該想辦法減稅怎麼可能所以這也是為什麼有時候常常政府在說我會對你減稅他會無感的原因有錢人會有感沒有錢的人就沒有錢你再減再多其實他也沒有太多的感覺"},{"start":3309.967,"end":3333.622,"text":"所以我覺得在貧富差距這個部分大家可以去看到當然我想兒少教育發展帳戶這個部分剛剛提了很多大家也對這個帳戶還是有很多的期待但是你看到另外一個未來帳戶這裡其實他的條件其實更鬆這個就是我剛剛講的就是說我們在一個我們想要去解決所謂的貧富差距我們是利益良善的一個想法"},{"start":3333.962,"end":3355.744,"text":"但是我的做法並沒有利益良善可能是去擴大這個貧富的差距這個是我覺得我們在立這個草案在談的時候要注意的所以沒有縮減貧富的差距的功能最後呢對我來講他會變成普發現金只是這次的對象變成所謂的未成年這個跟我上次來參加公聽會的時候印象很深刻"},{"start":3356.525,"end":3364.273,"text":"我發現我們現在國會很喜歡討論普發現金這類型的東西我上次來的是什麼是壯世代"},{"start":3365.751,"end":3388.01,"text":"那個壯世代也莫名其妙變了壯世代出來然後就要歸給這個壯世代現在又歸給青少年我想下一次來的時候不知道是不是又變成65歲以上的年長者那我希望這種政策不要再繼續下去所以你可以看到這個兒少發展帳戶或台灣未來帳戶的條例裡面大家可以去看到"},{"start":3388.951,"end":3406.407,"text":"我把它列出來第一個是適用對象為什麼我會先講適用對象假設你的適用對象沒有框好的時候你的立法目的就完全沒有辦法符合假設你的立法目的沒有辦法符合那你立這個法案要幹嘛呢我覺得這個是大家必須要有辦法去把它說明清楚的"},{"start":3407.148,"end":3423.102,"text":"所以我覺得台灣需要的不是現金但是我們不要只有現金卻沒有未來只有現金為什麼沒有未來我們要給大家什麼樣的未來其實未來可以接受更好的教育"},{"start":3423.782,"end":3451.28,"text":"這個也是這個帳戶的條例想要做的但是有沒有辦法讓他接受更好的教育你不知道現在大家擔心台灣的是什麼大家為什麼會擔心所謂的少子女化因為教育環境的問題因為醫療環境的問題因為托育環境的問題有種種的問題結果大家都不好好聚焦在這裡反而來說我要怎麼樣來發現金雖然這一次多了一個你可以去買ETF你的錢可以漲大但是會不會漲大其實不知道"},{"start":3452.04,"end":3467.086,"text":"所以我想如果是一個負責任的政府應該要有未來的規劃財富才會去活水如果你不負責任只有錢沒有規劃你就沒有未來所以我想最後來看一下就是財政剛剛都講了"},{"start":3468.547,"end":3489.748,"text":"就是大家會擔心所謂的財政排擠其實我擔心的不是財政的排擠我擔心的是說你的財源其實就是不穩定的因為你要舉債因為你要去用所謂的稅計剩餘那稅計剩餘你不是說這是對人民超徵嗎不是每年都希望還給人民嗎假設你覺得稅計剩餘是對人民超徵你就不要來亂動這個稅計剩餘"},{"start":3491.77,"end":3515.248,"text":"假設你覺得這個稅基剩餘是可以動用的那你就應該去好好想想看稅基剩餘要怎麼用問題在哪裡剛剛廖委員說台灣最大的問題就是維持現狀才是台灣財政最大的問題這個我非常同意為什麼我很難想像說我們的國會沒有辦法去好好審查預算沒有辦法好好審查預算會遇到什麼問題台灣的未來長什麼樣子"},{"start":3517.386,"end":3545.916,"text":"在場各位知道嗎你沒有預算的支持你怎麼會有台灣的未來那你沒有台灣的未來你卻在想台灣年輕人未來要怎麼辦這個其實是非常非常衝突矛盾的我最後主席再給我一分鐘因為剛剛我用的時間會比前面幾位委員少那我有三個部分第一個就是剛剛的憂心你讓台灣沒有未來你用了再多的未來帳戶都不會有未來第二個矛盾就是如果你覺得"},{"start":3546.696,"end":3560.41,"text":"我們的預算你都不了解因為你沒有審我就不知道你了不了解你根本不知道台灣的未來會怎麼走會怎麼用這個預算這樣花對不對那你去幫年輕人搶未來這個是天方夜譚"},{"start":3561.573,"end":3590.332,"text":"最後一個就是說如果我們只發現金然後最後又不通過所謂的審查預算的話那你最後的結果其實只會讓台灣變成一個沒有現金的國家我們繼續在不公平的環境下去談平權讓我想到一個國家叫中國他永遠在進行所謂的不公平貿易但是他永遠到WTO去談什麼要公平貿易大家覺得這樣合理嗎我想這些想法供大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":3592.203,"end":3595.465,"text":"謝謝蔡明芳教授 接下來請林玉燕請召委各位委員還有在座的專家學者 大家早安我們在今天在討論國中兩黨提出來的臺灣未來帳戶我要強調的是面對少子化的危機我也認同應該政府應該投資"},{"start":3621.567,"end":3642.02,"text":"但一個政策的制定就像剛剛前面的蔡教授講不能光靠利益良善更重要的應該是他具體要用什麼樣的方式解決什麼問題能不能達到有效的目標這個要來看我們第一個來看到就是台灣未來帳戶特別條例第一條就指出說除了因應少子女化"},{"start":3642.955,"end":3658.418,"text":"解決跨世代貧富差距 落實人才培育然後保障創業教育資源先不論其他的光就我們的國中兩黨主打的少子女化問題只靠一個未來帳戶真的就可以改善嗎"},{"start":3659.281,"end":3684.489,"text":"我持懷疑態度因為國際的研究早就顯示並不是用單一的一個政策就可以來解決那OECD的2024年的報告就指出說勺子逆劃牽扯到非常多的問題住房的成本拖欲資源薪資的停滯工時過長職場性別不平等的交織性的問題所以要仰賴的政策組合"},{"start":3685.169,"end":3710.408,"text":"那ISPORA整個在談的時候也是特別去提到就是說關鍵的因素在育嬰的育嬰假的長度跟職場支持不是只有經濟考量發現金真的就會解決問題嗎如果發現金會解決問題的話那前面我們大家就解決了很多問題甚至其他國家經濟也不是這樣所以"},{"start":3711.378,"end":3736.003,"text":"國中糧養在說明在立法說明的時候也提到了我們的新加坡像剛剛廖委員也提到不過廖委員提到但只有單一的一個所謂的兒童帳戶新加坡因應少子化大概也開設了兒童我們的兒童發展帳戶可是限定他有一些限定是在托育醫療保險等必要支出等到孩子長到13歲的時候的確那個"},{"start":3738.3,"end":3756.001,"text":"帳戶的餘額會轉到我們的教育帳戶不過不同款帳戶的專款專用那顯示我們的政策目標跟制度的設計上當初有高度的一致性可是更重要的是他除了這個帳戶以外事實上新加坡還有一些配套的像生意補助 住房津貼 政府"},{"start":3756.707,"end":3779.386,"text":"政府的那個主屋的優先購買還有我們的有薪假的還有育嬰假這些配套所以陳秉樸剛剛廖委員在提如果今天廖委員提的事實上只有一個所謂的兒童發展帳戶當然的確是不夠因為為什麼因為新加坡不是只有做一個帳戶就結束因為是在孩子出生後的每一個成長階段"},{"start":3780.936,"end":3807.263,"text":"都有不同的政策的工具來接力而且還有拿出很多的配套措施來提高生育的誘因台灣真正我們去看研究幾乎事實上是女不婚男男婚的問題如果結婚了幾乎都會生育可是如果不進入到婚姻體系裡邊的話那才是最大的難題怎麼去做不會是一個帳戶就可以去解決的所以我們再來看台灣未來帳戶的預算的規劃"},{"start":3809.451,"end":3838.132,"text":"光啟動資金就要1130億元已經足夠支應台灣現在一整年多管齊下的少子女化的對策800億的全台灣少子女化的政策的總和那這個總和我相信各位看到這邊就知道包括我們的職場支持的措施托育幼兒園的一個補助和育兒津貼跟生育補助那條例甚至還規定就台灣未來賬戶可以優先移用前年度的稅計生育"},{"start":3839.468,"end":3865.584,"text":"那甚至要舉債 我們的借債務來支應這麼一大筆錢直接投入一個目標模糊效果未知的賬戶裡邊不只會排擠到現有的社會福利資源 還要再留子孫所以我就不知道說剛剛第一條就講說要解決跨世代的貧富差距不用跨世代現在就會富者越富 貧者越貧的問題甚至還要舉債那不是把我們的債留給子孫的時候"},{"start":3867.756,"end":3890.307,"text":"他們不是更進入到貧窮嗎所以我就不太理解說為什麼是這樣子的一個概念所以我們剛剛離開的我們的曾教授曾立正教授他也提醒說以資產累積方式投資兒童的政策方向並非不可行但制度設計必須非常精細否則可能讓不同家庭的資產差距出現重大的斷層"},{"start":3891.567,"end":3914.924,"text":"所以各位也可以看到說當這個臺灣未來帳戶裡邊可以看到政府真的齊東金給了5萬塊然後政府每年那撥補呢是11萬那當然低收也是拿到這個那陳儒剛剛廖委員講是說每一個因為線往上下跌然後我們的弱勢呢只存500塊那如果說18歲提領的時候那本金呢已經達到196萬元可是弱勢呢他只能拿到16萬如果一個"},{"start":3920.828,"end":3947.676,"text":"雇主呢如果有錢的他雇主呢他又在替我們的他員工加碼存五萬塊然後每年還有我們的底稅優惠所以就會造就富者越負貧者越貧兩者的資產差距會越來越大甚至差到250萬甚至到300萬以上所以到底真的是要去解決我們的跨世代貧富差距嗎現在就已經貧富差距如果在實施的時候就已經造就了這個問題"},{"start":3948.775,"end":3951.15,"text":"所以真的能解決嗎 我非常的懷疑"},{"start":3951.96,"end":3978.816,"text":"所以我要强调我并不是反对儿童发展账户的这类的制度可是台湾未来账户的目前的目标跟设计实在是有太多问题作为立法者我们必须考量现实现在当政府资源有限的时候本来就应该优先照顾弱势否则这样的排挤下去的话弱势更难获得照顾事实上社会问题可能会更多所以如果当我们这样一笔钱贸然去投入到我们的政策目标跟手段不明确的政策"},{"start":3979.417,"end":3990.198,"text":"我覺得不適合所以因此我一直有關注現在我們台灣及少年未來教育及發展帳戶能不能讓更多的弱勢的孩子們"},{"start":3991.74,"end":4019.318,"text":"納進來 我覺得這事實上是衛福部要去想的 為什麼只有六成的開戶 陳路剛正老師前面在提的是能不能全部都納入不是只有鼓勵他們開戶 是不是我們政府有沒有什麼更好的誘因 另外一個就是我覺得最更重要的是我年初就一直在跟衛福部跟民團在討論的社會救助法修法 調整家庭收入的計算方式廢除不合理的虛擬收入的規定 把淨貧"},{"start":4020.559,"end":4041.712,"text":"但真正有需要的家庭納進來這才是讓我們去解決社會上現在根本上很大的貧富差距的問題那鄭老師檢討線有制度的時候有提到阻礙弱勢家庭參與除夕計畫的不只是經濟能力還有現行的門檻跟理財觀念的不足"},{"start":4042.11,"end":4063.931,"text":"很多家長不知道怎麼開戶也不了解到我們的帳戶的一個規則更覺得理財是有錢人的事情所以我覺得這事實上是衛福部要去突破的所以如果使現在的現行帳戶更有效益的話就必須搭配更簡易更容易懂得操作流程以及相關的理財還有我們的理財的整個的輔導教育讓家長能夠了解規則來降低參與的門檻"},{"start":4067.898,"end":4091.591,"text":"我覺得這才是真的是在幫台灣解決問題以上謝謝林恩請召委接下來請第五位陳志彥董事長主席各位委員"},{"start":4094.898,"end":4118.739,"text":"主席各位委員 各位學者專家大家好我是阿發投顧陳志彥今天很榮幸來這邊參加公聽會希望能夠從金融業者的看法角度能夠提供一些建言當然首先我們看未來帳戶很多人直覺都會想到是有點對標美國的川普帳戶"},{"start":4120.18,"end":4142.168,"text":"那可能大家就會想因為剛剛前面教授有提到事實上美國已經有一個529的教育金的計畫給這個小孩那為什麼還要有川普帳戶這樣的東西那他到底有什麼不同那是不是會有一些這個衝突的地方那其實我建議大家我們可以從一個更"},{"start":4144.107,"end":4154.073,"text":"更大範圍的角度來看這個帳戶的設計其實從我們的角度看美國川普帳戶這個帳戶的設計呢其實是去銜接他的所謂IRA的帳戶那美國的IRA帳戶是給成年人用的那但是剛剛講到529的計畫呢他其實是"},{"start":4165.715,"end":4184.11,"text":"被很限制在這個所謂教育費的這種支出上面那可能就在支出上有很多的限制所以這次的美國川普賬戶呢其實他就把這個範圍有比較擴大那到18歲的時候如果小孩沒有馬上提領這個錢的話這個資金其實這個賬戶會轉到他的II賬戶繼續去管理"},{"start":4190.715,"end":4211.661,"text":"所以這個圖呢其實有兩個看點第一個看點就是說川普賬戶其實他是把他這個原本的IRA賬戶再往下延伸讓他變得更完整等於照顧這個美國公民從出生一直到他退休之後的整個全生涯的這種設計他就變得很完整這是第一個看點"},{"start":4212.641,"end":4231.552,"text":"那第二個看點就是其實你可以看到這個個人帳戶呢其實他有非常多需要這種個人的帳戶管理的功能在裡面的這個我等一下會特別說明那這個是我們我覺得我們在借鏡國外的經驗的時候可以參考的"},{"start":4232.552,"end":4250.363,"text":"那第二個是新加坡剛剛也很多學者還有委員都有提到新加坡的例子其實新加坡的這個帳戶設計也是一樣你可以看到它的每一個帳戶設計其實它都是有銜接性的那兒童帳戶到後面它會銜接到下一個階段那下一個階段"},{"start":4251.383,"end":4257.265,"text":"比如說到13歲到這個30歲這個階段當然主要還是支付這種學費那如果到30歲他沒有用完的話他就會再往下面去銜接銜接到他的創業他的買房所以這個是我想我們在借鏡這種國外這些經驗的時候呢很值得參考的那我們看完這些國外的經驗我們再回頭看我們的未來賬戶我覺得有特別需要"},{"start":4278.686,"end":4308.338,"text":"就是思考的有幾個點第一個就是這個個人帳戶到底怎麼有效管理我覺得這個是很重要一個點希望提供給大家去思考其實在國外這種個人帳戶不管是美國的IRA 401K或者是新加坡日本其實這種個人帳戶的管理其實都一定會有金融機構協助參與這個我覺得是非常重要的一件事情因為個人帳戶的管理大家要理解就是說"},{"start":4308.858,"end":4327.923,"text":"其實每一個人的需求是不太一樣的比如說我們這個未來帳戶設計這個小孩到18歲我們希望讓他去繳學費這個設計理念很好但是有沒有想過萬一他真的18歲要繳學費那一年突然股市就大跌那怎麼辦那一年如果股市大跌跌了三成"},{"start":4328.863,"end":4357.575,"text":"對他的繳學費是不是很大影響所以這個要怎麼處理所以其實個人帳戶的管理呢他事實上是需要有更細緻的去設計我覺得這個是我們應該去思考的第二個呢剛剛其實也有教授啦委員都有提到就是這個帳戶終究有一天會到期到18歲之後將來到底要怎麼銜接這個銜接的問題到底要怎麼處理從我們剛剛看到國外的案例其實它是一整套可以一直銜接下去的"},{"start":4358.175,"end":4384.212,"text":"那其實我覺得好消息是台灣事實上是有解方的我提供大家參考去年這個金管會有推一個叫TISA的帳戶可能在座有一些人如果不了解的話TISA它叫Taiwan Individual Savings Account就是台灣個人的儲蓄帳戶那這個帳戶的設計當初設計其實就是在對標美國的IRA"},{"start":4385.552,"end":4402.141,"text":"帳戶那日本的NISA帳戶其實他就是一個成人版的個人帳戶這是去年金管會已經在推動的事實上現在已經已經有上路了已經在實施了所以其實我們所以建議就是說我們在思考這個未來帳戶的時候應該去思考"},{"start":4403.061,"end":4426.83,"text":"將來如果18歲到了以後是不是能夠銜接到這個TISA帳戶這樣子其實就是等於是跟國外先進國家都一樣從這個一個小孩出生一直到他退休其實這整個整個照顧事實上是可以銜接住的我覺得這個是一個非常重要的思考那下面這裡就有一個簡單的試算讓大家參考這個是依照就是假如"},{"start":4427.55,"end":4449.06,"text":"目前的一個草案的版本就是說一開始小孩出生給他5萬然後每年再給1萬那到12歲之後就不給付一直到18歲的話如果以這樣子的方式來設計而且前提是說假如家長都沒有額外再提撥資金進去的話可以看到到18歲的時候如果以現在台股的指數平均是"},{"start":4450.08,"end":4477.894,"text":"長期的報酬大概7%來計算的話到18歲他可以有4、3萬這個就是他如果要來繳他的教育金的話他就有這筆錢不好意思再給我一分鐘再來就是30歲的話他如果就轉到TESA帳戶的話他就可以有買房的資金45歲創業65歲退休退休大概有將近1000萬所以這樣子的設計就可以到整個他全山崖來設計所以最後這是最後一張就是我們希望"},{"start":4478.354,"end":4499.044,"text":"提出了幾個建言第一個就是在整個個人帳戶的管理上真的是建議希望能夠納入金融機構的參與這個底層的資金管理統一統一的管理這都沒有問題但是第二層的個人帳戶運用的方面其實是可以考慮讓這個金融機構進來參與因為每一個人的"},{"start":4501.585,"end":4513.014,"text":"情況需求真的是不一樣的第二個就是這個剛剛講到銜接的問題那其實在台灣目前其實我覺得最好的銜接方式就是去跟TESA帳戶銜接這個這樣子就會讓整個全生涯的這個照顧都能夠符合"},{"start":4517.757,"end":4544.395,"text":"那特別像剛剛很多委員學者都有提到就是在這個整個帳戶設計希望能夠有這種理財教育的功能但是你有理財教育的功能你一定要把金融機構納入參與這個才是最可行的方式那最後就是其實台灣的TISA在去年就已經上路了但是TISA這個版本呢金管會有講它其實是分還是有短中長期的目標啦那裡面有一些像這個"},{"start":4545.896,"end":4571.131,"text":"稅務的部分可能在第一階段還沒有辦法有效的實施那可能將來希望就是說我們在考慮這種未來帳戶的時候如果能夠把這個整個TESA帳戶也一起一併納入去思考讓將來整個TESA帳戶也更完整的話我覺得這整個制度用未來帳戶跟TESA帳戶去銜接我覺得對台灣的國民是一個非常好的一種制度設計以上介紹 謝謝"},{"start":4572.892,"end":4573.915,"text":"謝謝陳志願董事長接下來請陳學樺陳學樺律師"},{"start":4589.164,"end":4610.045,"text":"主席好各位先進好大家好我是陳學華陳律師那我這邊來表示一下我是個三個小朋友的爸爸那我的小朋友分別年齡是在國中跟兩個是國小的學生所以當時在接觸到這個法案的時候我們思考的一個問題是說這個東西到底對我們這個生育的三個小孩子的"},{"start":4610.445,"end":4630.705,"text":"父母或者是對我們的三個小朋友的未來有什麼影響那我先講一下我所身處的世代來說的話我會感覺很嚴重的世代的剝奪的這個焦慮因為我們的上一世代把不動產的紅利基本上都拿走了留給我們的就是沉重的房貸還有很多的這個資源的需要去因應但是這個世代剝奪的感覺可能"},{"start":4632.066,"end":4651.212,"text":"每個世代都會發生那我對這個法案的想法是說我們身處這個世代來說留給下一代的是什麼東西我們可能的想法都是站在我們自己的角度去想那我們有沒有想過對下一個世代他們期待的是什麼他們想要的是什麼舉個例子來說最近小朋友跟我爭取要零用金他說"},{"start":4652.392,"end":4666.737,"text":"我想要零用金爸爸那三個小孩都來找跟我要這個事情那我說我都已經學費都幫你弄好了你要出去玩的這個費用我也都幫你支出了你為什麼還需要零用金當然我們討論很久但是我最後感受到小孩是他需要一個選擇的機會"},{"start":4668.337,"end":4687.183,"text":"就是說他自己有自己的選擇權錢怎麼用其實都是爸爸媽媽幫他規劃好你要去上什麼學校你要去哪裡玩你要做什麼事情都是按照爸爸媽媽的需求或者是要求去做但是小朋友他們有自己他們的想法選擇的權利他們自己其實也有其實在國中國小的階段他們其實已經開始有選擇的權利"},{"start":4688.423,"end":4708.346,"text":"所以我在想說其實我們在討論這部分連結到我自己所面臨到世代剝奪的情況之下我們是不是有留給小朋友選擇的機會那我也回應一下雖然這個法案聽起來確實沒有辦法改憲目前台灣少子化的問題可是某種問題少子化如果是一個必然發生的現象那我們留給未來那麼少這不是有限的一個"},{"start":4709.286,"end":4735.535,"text":"下一個世代我們是不是可以多給他們一個什麼東西讓他們不要在世代剝奪的焦慮之下成長因為人數已經少所以可能這個法案對他們來說不會讓他們讓我們現在這一代趕快生小孩可是呢讓他們這些已經人數少又要面對這麼多的社會的一個競爭壓力或者是社會多的一個可能我們留給他的很多的問題糟糕的東西是不是有讓他們有個選擇的機會那這個法案我覺得非常好的部分來說"},{"start":4736.235,"end":4765.554,"text":"我覺得我們不一定要以這個貧富差距來審視一個案件而是要想說每個小孩他有獨立成長的空間他是不是應該留給他一個種子也就是說他未來在他滿18歲之後他有個選擇的機會我想選擇的機會很多啦當然法案的部分我們幫他限縮了就是你可能學教育的部分我可以給你錢可能你要出去有一些創業我要給你錢這當然都是我們幫他所設想的但是我覺得我們可以用更開放的想法就是說"},{"start":4766.414,"end":4791.942,"text":"這個錢留給小孩那未來這個18歲的時候他要什麼使用可能留給這個未來的他譬如說剛剛說他可以放在第一桶金放在儲蓄賬戶未來他自己可以存他的退休金這都是一個很好的東西我覺得信任下一代是我們必須要學習的不然我們都以這世代自己想自己的利益其實某種程度我們是剝奪下一代的他的利益紅利這個部分我想說大概先表示一下自己個人的立場所以說當時這個"},{"start":4794.123,"end":4823.443,"text":"法案通過要討論的時候我在想的部分來說的話是在那個小孩子跟父子家長的心態來說的話如果小孩子未來有這個帳戶我可以幫他存取一筆錢等他滿18歲的時候他可以有個選擇機會我要怎麼用除此之外其實我很期待這個法案推進的過程當中我有幾個期待第一個就是說我們是不是既然小孩子期待有自己的帳戶會有一筆這個三五十萬的現金我們的財商教育其實現在我們的學校"},{"start":4824.083,"end":4852.713,"text":"國中國小都有在進行相關的財商教育可是財商教育我也問跟小朋友去做討論他會說那種東西我以為沒錢你教這個東西對我來說也沒什麼影響其實對他們來說他們沒有面臨到用錢或者是有錢這個東西的使用所以說你沒有的時候你要如何去思考這個東西所以我在想說如果我們真的有個未來帳戶的話我期待政府應該是讓小孩子有知情權其實這也是符合我們CRC的一個公約小朋友他其實在兒童福利來說的話他應該對於自己的未來帳戶"},{"start":4853.553,"end":4869.728,"text":"也有一個參與權甚至有一個選擇權的機會這當然我們可以在細部去做規劃但是我想的是當我有某個東西的時候我才會產生盼望跟我才會思考說我這個錢要怎麼使用當你沒有的時候你去教他財商教他怎麼去理財"},{"start":4870.379,"end":4885.71,"text":"什麼東西我覺得都是非常空壞而且沒有切身之急但是如果利用他自己的存摺帳戶你有這筆存摺假設你你有一點小小的一個選擇權譬如說你可以選擇什麼樣子的基金單位的時候結合到我們的財商交易來說的話是不是可以增加"},{"start":4886.178,"end":4901.633,"text":"我們對於小孩子的財商的教育的部分那我覺得財商教育不一定是貧富差距弱勢的小孩子比較需要其實我覺得所有的小孩都需要尤其台灣已經是少子化無法改變的事實至少未來20年小孩子就是比較少那他們是不是留給他們一個比較正確的"},{"start":4903.194,"end":4919.991,"text":"資產觀點我想說川普會推這個賬戶也不是為了賬戶弱勢而是他站在現在美國的狀況思考未來的下一代他需要的是什麼東西我想他站在資本主義立場就是你要有資源你才有辦法去使用有使用你才能獲益如果站在這種現場的話為什麼我們不能把"},{"start":4920.631,"end":4947.26,"text":"現在政府手上的錢去投資下一代但未來的這些小孩子在面臨未來的社會發展的時候他還有更多選擇的機會那我也不會人講確實政府或者是我們現今的狀況很多的分老那與其政府怎麼決定幫我們花錢那不如投資放在每個小孩的帳戶當中讓他未來去審視我要怎麼用錢某種程度這是不是也是比較合乎我們人民的期待至少站在三爸爸的立場之下"},{"start":4947.72,"end":4963.175,"text":"我覺得就好像要零用金一樣我們政府現在既然有這個預算有這個費用那為什麼不發個零用金讓他使用謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝陳學樺律師接下來請葉崇洋教授葉崇洋教授"},{"start":4973.105,"end":4999.264,"text":"喂嘿可以聽得到吼好各位好我是東吳大學社會學系的葉崇洋那今天就是被邀請來參與這個公聽會啊那就是談一下臺灣未來帳戶的一個政策的部分啊剛才就聽了很多前輩的一些就是講的東西啊我覺得都非常有趣而且我家裡也有兩個小孩一個六歲一個八歲所以應該是用得到的但是"},{"start":5000.245,"end":5019.335,"text":"我覺得這個賬戶他有很多的問題存在那我所以我覺得可以稍微再思考一下剛才已經有很多人提到像美國的然後像是新加坡的我也不知道為什麼我們很喜歡跟美國跟新加坡這種社會政策做的很爛的國家比那"},{"start":5021.017,"end":5037.939,"text":"這個一直跟他們比好像是我們一直在跟後段班比啦那實際上還是一個很奇怪的事情而且我們台灣的社會政策其實在東亞其實是做的還算OK的所以我們應該是跟先進的國家去比先進的福利國家包括歐洲的福利國家去比啦"},{"start":5038.479,"end":5067.047,"text":"那當然當然有很多人提到兒童信託基金的部分英國的部分那兒童信用基金信託基金我其實比較喜歡叫他信用基金啊因為我自己在寫paper也都是用叫信用基金2001年的時候他啟動然後2011年的時候他就被保守黨政府取消掉然後改成Junior ISA的部分這我剛才應該很多人都提過這件事情但其實"},{"start":5068.207,"end":5095.236,"text":"兒童信託基金他其實最大的問題是在於他造成很大的貧富差距我們都已經知道貧富差距會讓那些人窮小孩沒辦法翻身但是我們還是要這樣子做造成窮小孩沒辦法翻身我們可以稍微自己看一下這件事情就是說如果你有負率的效應放大會放大差距的"},{"start":5096.402,"end":5097.204,"text":"這個是我做的推估"},{"start":5099.042,"end":5126.684,"text":"如果我們根據現在的規定開戶的時候5萬然後加上每年存1萬家長上限10萬 雇主上限5萬我們去推估然後再加上儲蓄率我們每年我用的是家庭收支調查的儲蓄率從10%到100%的那個第10等份跟最低的10等份的儲蓄率去推估的所以如果你是最窮的小孩"},{"start":5127.745,"end":5137.714,"text":"最低的10%跟最低的20%他們12年他們只會拿到24萬25萬而已但是最好的那一群人"},{"start":5138.991,"end":5165.682,"text":"最高最有錢的那一群的小孩他們會存到將近250萬大概220幾萬左右也就是說差距將近快10倍甚至11倍然後有人會告訴我們說我們可以透過這個讓窮小孩翻身這一件事情是一件很不可能的事情我們現在都已經不要說我啦就拿我就好了我連在台北市都買不起房子了對不對"},{"start":5166.582,"end":5191.197,"text":"那個你要告訴我說這些窮小孩在未來他可以透過這個方針這個在一些很不可思議的事情我覺得是就睜眼說瞎話啦就是說你造成這樣的情況底下他會造成更多的貧富差距那窮人他一定是在很多地方一定是不利於有錢的小孩啊那在這種情況底下"},{"start":5192.057,"end":5207.879,"text":"房子買不起找不到好的工作上不了好的大學那你還要想要透過這些事情讓他們去翻身嗎更不可能所以不要期望投資在這種未來賬戶上就會讓小孩子翻身這是不可能的事情"},{"start":5208.92,"end":5223.669,"text":"投資要投資在對的地方這才是去討論政策的重點而且我們即便用定存最保守的情境去推估2%就好了他也會差到11倍"},{"start":5224.81,"end":5240.987,"text":"所以這個不可能會讓小孩子翻身的不可能而且我們在討論現今對生育率移轉的效果基本上就是沒效果啦我們可以這麼說他的效果非常有限他不足以扭轉少子女化的趨勢"},{"start":5242.208,"end":5262.516,"text":"他重點是搭配多種政策工具我是參加很多研討會啦那做很多有關少子化跟年金的政策說到這個上次來參加那個公聽會回去馬上就被公教人員罵所以不要再在TRADE上或是在網路上再罵我了所以我很怕被罵的這些研究啊大概都告訴我們"},{"start":5268.423,"end":5295.619,"text":"現金補助不可能對少子化產生不要說產生任何效果他的效果非常有限包括從新加坡韓國日本法國澳洲都告訴我們不太可能有很多的效果尤其是你這個錢是存在銀行裡面存在銀行裡面是存了12年存了18年才拿出來用我根本就拿不到用你怎麼會覺得我會"},{"start":5298.563,"end":5320.8,"text":"這個馬上就會有效果呢是不可能的如果我們把根據這個就根據過去的研究我們把同樣預算我比較懶惰啦我直接因為是4500億嘛我們把錢大概我就轉成大概12年大概每年大概400億所以大概4800億如果我們把錢全部用在公托上每增加"},{"start":5326.413,"end":5341.705,"text":"10%的托育覆蓋率出生率可以增加2.8%所以如果我們把錢用在現在的公托上同樣的基金同樣的預算我們可以提升每年大概可以提升1萬人的"},{"start":5343.942,"end":5358.23,"text":"出生數所以這個是才是投資社會投資的核心社會投資就是必須要把錢投資在對的地方而不是把錢投資在創造更多的"},{"start":5359.21,"end":5383.646,"text":"不平等上川普他是川普頭顧啊他其實只是要去創造那個金融市場而且如果你把這個錢花在金融市場的話他會創造更多的不利的狀況而且他可能會使得房價大幅的提升而且房價我們大幅的提升的情況底下你可以看到房價每漲美金一萬塊的話就是三十幾萬"},{"start":5385.086,"end":5410.756,"text":"非自有住宅者生育率會降2.4也就是說如果你把這個錢花在這個未來帳戶上他反而會造成你生育率的下降我都買不起房子了我還要幹嘛要生孩子對不對我的小孩兩個我都不知道我要準備兩間房子有沒有可能給他們的我自己都買不起了還期待我小孩買房子嗎所以在這種情況底下大家當然不會生小孩所以"},{"start":5413.476,"end":5432.888,"text":"好好的思考這件事情所以最後核心問題普及式的設計當然很多人都講了包括像鄭義智老師啊或是什麼無差異的他會造成很多的不平等的問題英國已經告訴我們已經失敗了但是我們還是要針對這個做嗎我覺得應該要"},{"start":5436.254,"end":5463.309,"text":"好好的思考一下而且這個沒有辦法提升正義率已經是國際證明了那個廖委員從說那個學界說投資是有效應的但是怎麼投資才是重點所以那個看書不要只看一半看書要看多一點然後才告訴我們投資是要才能告訴我們投資是有效果的投資怎麼投資是重點投資在工作上"},{"start":5465.148,"end":5467.454,"text":"才是投資在未來的小孩上"},{"start":5468.482,"end":5494.509,"text":"不是在投資在未來的帳戶上那是在投資在金融市場上而已那是投資在有錢人身上而已不是在投資在台灣未來的世代上而且你這個會產生預算排擠的效果如果我們越投資在這些金融市場上不投資在公脫上你未來的生育率只會越來越低台灣我今天穿黑色的衣服啊覺得本來是覺得是顯瘦但剛才聽到就說"},{"start":5496.482,"end":5515.913,"text":"那個蔡教授說那個台灣的未來會被葬送我最近出了一本書叫做葬送的福利年金順便打數一下上次也有說那我選擇這個名稱其實就是在談這件事情如果你把錢亂花那你就會把台灣的未來葬送掉了所以你預算怎麼去配置才是投資"},{"start":5526.363,"end":5538.612,"text":"的核心投資在公脫上才是社會投資的核心所以不要再說投資在這種金融市場上是社會投資的是要做投資的謝謝大家謝謝葉崇洋教授待會邱慧如發言後休息10分鐘現在請蕭東元理事長蕭東元理事長"},{"start":5564.455,"end":5584.21,"text":"主席各位委員各位專家寫者大家早安大家好我是全國家長團體聯盟理事長蕭東元我們在以家長團體的立場從教育這個觀點來看我們這一次要討論的台灣未來帳戶的特別條例草案"},{"start":5585.319,"end":5610.174,"text":"那從現狀來觀察我們可以知道兒少的人力資本的投資會直接影響到我們國家未來的競爭力跟社會穩定那目前在結構性上我們發生這樣的困境就是我們持續的一直在擴大跨世代的資產差距那從交易觀點來看"},{"start":5612.421,"end":5626.856,"text":"我們孩子的生涯發展跟他的成長過程跟他可以投資的資源多寡有非常大的關聯而且大家都知道就是教育是我們階層流通的一個重要的一個工程那在這邊我想提到這個草案"},{"start":5627.777,"end":5647.856,"text":"看到有一個轉型的契機可以從政策從福利的補貼轉向對未來勞動力的一個長期投資所以我覺得建立這樣一個制度雖然不是立即可以解決少子化的問題但是對於整個政策來講它可以是其中的一環"},{"start":5650.25,"end":5678.124,"text":"那從這個草案上我們可以看出來目前規劃的是有三方共同來投資有政府出生的時候就撥入五萬然後每年再撥一萬塊那家庭的部分家長可以每年上限十萬塊的投入那這裡就還多了一個企業的部分我想從這三方共同來投資孩子的一個未來是一個可以期待的一個方式"},{"start":5680.875,"end":5698.773,"text":"在管理部分我們希望這個基金可以跟著國家的經濟一起成長所以在專業營運方面這裡有規劃委託勞保局來做保管跟運用管理確保它是一個大型的基金可以長期穩定的獲利"},{"start":5700.114,"end":5718.227,"text":"那在安全標的方面會做一些投資標的的限制比如說大盤的指數型的基金ETF部分那禁止高風險的一個投資跟槓桿的操作那保底部分的話如果他操作的收益低於銀行的定存利率的話就由國庫來補足"},{"start":5719.668,"end":5730.679,"text":"那專款專用部分就在18歲前這個部分是禁止提領然後保障它有一個長期復利的效果真正轉化為社會流動的一個動力"},{"start":5734.38,"end":5753.955,"text":"那政策銜接部分我想就教育就業跟脫貧來講第一個我們提到他用途要精準在成年後資金限定用於高等教育尤其我想這個教育的部分是尤其重要那當然其他執訓創業或是購屋的部分也是可以作為應用"},{"start":5755.97,"end":5784.111,"text":"那脫貧的配套部分就這個帳戶他就不記錄中低收入戶的一個財產家庭財產的一個計算那避免他們喪失這個社福基的那個資格那落實資產起跑線的一個平權那在法律保障的部分資金可以作為抵銷扣押跟強制執行的一個標的確保這一份交易的保險能夠真正用在孩子的身上"},{"start":5787.13,"end":5816.323,"text":"那國際趨勢的部分我想剛剛英國的部分跟新加坡這裡還特別提到一個韓國都有這樣的一個政治政策的經驗可以讓我們借鏡然後在負能交易部分我想也可以接近美國大和美的法案一樣透過儲蓄的機制來鼓勵那個家庭為子女累積交易基金提升未來的競爭力那最後結語的部分"},{"start":5817.824,"end":5841.159,"text":"我想以教育的使命來看我們透過這個條例我們不僅是在累積財富跟是在落實人才培育的發展平權所以在這邊我們特別希望立法院各委員可以支持這個草案那當然在這個草案當中剛剛有其他的專家學者提出它有相當多的其實還有相當多的問題那這個部分我想"},{"start":5842.922,"end":5844.306,"text":"後續更多細節的討論可以透過我們"},{"start":5849.264,"end":5877.237,"text":"各位立委主公的一個專業做一些條文的修正跟解決那希望可以在這個部分像我們剛剛也有看到資料裡面有教育部包括勞動部跟衛護部各個跨部會的一個分工可以來強化這個帳戶的一個管理跟教育輔助系統的一個深度的一個對接那終極目標我想希望它可以展現我們"},{"start":5878.837,"end":5901.663,"text":"我們國家可以希望跟年輕世代共同來分擔這樣的一個養育責任然後共同建立一個看得見未來的台灣那在這個部分其實我們昨天我們全國家養傳力聯盟跟媽媽盟也開了一個記者會那我們也針對現在補助貧權的部分像那個"},{"start":5903.293,"end":5907.901,"text":"現在在家托育的部分托育的部分現在幾乎大概只有25%是有在"},{"start":5911.233,"end":5938.68,"text":"托育機構或是委託保姆托育其實75%這個托育的部分都還是在家庭做托育但是這個補助的部分有非常大的落差幾乎是差了一倍那我們也呼籲在這個部分也可以做平權然後讓在家庭托育跟機構托育或保姆托育的這個補助可以有一個平權一個調整的那個機制以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":5940.179,"end":5941.023,"text":"謝謝蕭東遠理事長接下來請邱慧如委員"},{"start":5950.424,"end":5978.754,"text":"主席各位委員同仁各位專家學者還有各位與會的這個政府部門的同仁大家好那我想少子化的問題呢真的是非常的嚴重那我想已經是國安問題這個是不爭的事實我想大家是都認同的已經是國安層次的議題所以當然我們目前就是要絞盡腦汁看如何的來提升新生兒的生育率特別是我們回顧過去十年的數字"},{"start":5980.874,"end":6001.122,"text":"2016年我們的新生兒出生人數還有21萬左右那來到了去年新生兒的出生人數卻不到11萬所以在這短短的10年當中我們的新生兒呈現一個腰斬的現象那更淒涼的是今年2月我們新生兒的這個出生人數單月破期前的大關所以"},{"start":6002.162,"end":6027.976,"text":"如何解決少子化的問題如何提升新生兒的生育人數我想是這個國家要面對的一個當務之急那我想不生的原因很多那不可否認的其中有一個原因是經濟的重擔經濟的重擔那最近的這個統計資料指出說我們國人的平均月薪是4.8萬但是呢平均月薪雖然是4.8萬但是有69%的人"},{"start":6031.098,"end":6054.249,"text":"拿到的月薪都是低於這個4.8萬的水準那所以顯示出說我們國人的這個貧富差距其實是非常大的那回到剛剛我們講不生不敢生不想生是不是有一部分的原因來自於經濟的重擔所以我們要如何協助想生育的父母他們能夠破除這個經濟的門檻經濟的重擔我想這也是政府應該要思考的"},{"start":6058.331,"end":6061.695,"text":"所以我們台灣民眾黨就推出了這個台灣未來帳戶的構想那也就是新生兒他出生之後我們國家就會五萬的啟動金匯入他的帳號那到他成長的12年以前的每一年每年就會再撥一萬塊進入他的帳戶"},{"start":6078.391,"end":6083.013,"text":"那這樣的一個動作跟這樣的一個啟動也好後續的撥補也好會讓兒童呢他在18歲因為透過一些利率跟富利的一個概念會讓兒童在18歲呢就取得人生的第一桶金那剛剛我想這個數字剛剛其實大家都有分享了不陌生就是33.9萬那如果他的父母呢也願意相對應於政府的舉措呢就是每個每年也撥補1萬塊到這個新生兒的帳戶"},{"start":6107.102,"end":6110.844,"text":"其實到他18歲可能就會有56.1萬這樣的一個規模我們不敢說這個是一個多麼偉大的數字但是我覺得它至少是給我們年輕學子在18歲的時候人生的第一桶金"},{"start":6125.774,"end":6153.793,"text":"那這個第一桶金呢他可以去做當然我們的TFA的這個條例裡頭有限制用途嘛就是就學就業或者是執訓那不敢說他是一個多偉大的數字但是他至少是人生的第一桶金他有人生的一個機會可以掌握他有一個翻身的契機那大家還記得嗎大約在半年前有一個朝陽科技大學的學生因為他家境清寒所以他要去辦休學"},{"start":6155.014,"end":6173.632,"text":"那要去搬休學他要提出他的這個提繳他的這個最低的一個註冊費就是1.8萬後來因為他拿不出這筆錢他就手上絕路了那造成一個家庭的破碎那我記得他的奶奶也非常的聲嘶力竭的一個心碎的吶喊那如果今天台灣未來賬戶"},{"start":6174.713,"end":6197.91,"text":"在今日有落實請問他會走上絕路嗎未必為什麼因為他可能有了這一桶金他的人生可能有完全不同的一個面貌的呈現所以我覺得這一桶金我們當然他對於解決少子化當然剛專家學者有提出疑問對於解決世代貧富的差距專家學者也有提出不同的看法那我覺得能不能解決這兩個目標"},{"start":6199.471,"end":6223.206,"text":"我覺得他的成效畢竟他沒有實施他的成效當然是有待未來來檢驗但我們是保持樂觀的態度那縱使他沒有這些偉大的宏願他給18歲的年輕人在人生有第一桶金也許他的人生的篇章會完全的不一樣也許他會畫出美麗的交響曲也不一定那剛剛我們有提到他有一些"},{"start":6224.647,"end":6252.55,"text":"優點在這個制度上我們有建制一些優點例如說他的涵蓋率比較低當然目前衛福部提出的那個涵蓋率相對低而且他是只針對低中低收入的這個兒童來做一個建制那其實目前也只有4萬個兒童受益而已那我們TFA這個賬戶當然就是加惠全台灣的兒童乃至於18歲可以動用一筆金的少年這樣那除此之外"},{"start":6253.01,"end":6274.004,"text":"政府啟動這樣的一個制度那集中管理那管理費小於0.1%也是想確保他後面的永續經營跟發展那當然這個制度如何能夠讓他更完整例如說確保這個制度能夠永續的經營然後兒童少年在18歲之後如何能夠"},{"start":6274.864,"end":6284.092,"text":"在使用目的上使用這筆經費當然這些如何有效的監督管理我們也許就是要請專家學者再給我們一些意見然後我們能夠把這個賬戶弄得再更加的完善那剛剛其實很多專家學者都提出一個看法就是說"},{"start":6291.078,"end":6295.504,"text":"你這個單一政策怎麼去解決少子化的問題你這個單一政策怎麼去解決貧富差距的問題那我想少子化或者是貧富差異都是一個大哉問絕對不是一個單一政策可以百分之百達到這兩個目的的效果一個政策它當然也有相對應的配套措施"},{"start":6309.241,"end":6321.498,"text":"一個效果要達成你當然要萬箭齊發你不可能靠這一支箭你就達到這樣的一個效果那萬箭齊發配套措施就要出來那我想剛很多專家學者都有提到說公托的問題那公托的問題其實我們"},{"start":6324.702,"end":6345.555,"text":"台灣公托的覆蓋率只有不到4%所以我們的政府除了說在支持我們推動TFA這個帳戶之旅是不是也要把公托的覆蓋率提升起來那政府他在協助地方建置公托部件公托的時候也許他的角色就應該更積極應該多給一些經費來支持那除此之外"},{"start":6346.255,"end":6371.766,"text":"單一政策當然不可能達到我們剛講的兩個美好目的但是政府的一些配套措施如果進來除了公托的部件還有性工法上例如說談性工時的這個給予減少工時的約會或者是甚至是家庭照顧假讓他從無薪假變成有薪假我想這些萬箭齊發然後再搭配我們TFA制度我們的新生兒速度就算不是土匪猛進但我想也應該會略有起色"},{"start":6373.707,"end":6383.458,"text":"當然就請專家學者再給我們一些建言讓我們能夠把這個制度建制的更完善以上說明謝謝謝謝邱惠若委員現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":6399.613,"end":6411.419,"text":"講得很好,你講都幫我講完了我這有兩大門,然後這邊許博士,然後這邊許博士,然後這邊許博士,然後這邊許博士,然後這邊許博士,然後這邊許博士,"},{"start":6423.965,"end":6443.312,"text":"只有我們來所以他覺得他就開玩笑說你這場還不覺得會玩得好因為來找找等不久以前都是一個人來的他如果沒有要來所以其實也蠻多的我自己也不敢 其實這場玩得很難你剛講到三個陣營很難想去那陣營玩 玩四個陣營玩 玩四個陣營玩跟小孩三個都很小三個都很小"},{"start":6698.821,"end":6699.363,"text":"您點這裡就會燈亮了"},{"start":6987.194,"end":6995.896,"text":"現在繼續開會現在請中軍委國教行動聯盟理事發言主席各位委員跟政府代表跟在場先進大家好我是國教行動聯盟理事中軍委今天國教盟特別在"},{"start":7017.162,"end":7023.689,"text":"在這裡要針對我們台灣未來賬戶的特別條例草案提出建言好那我的頭一片還沒謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7031.004,"end":7050.386,"text":"投資下一代是為了更公平的未來這是我們的願景我們的核心願景是每一位台灣孩子不論出生都能夠在成年時擁有追夢的尊嚴所以我們提出四項建議第一個是不會開戶確保不肉結任何一個孩子"},{"start":7051.403,"end":7066.862,"text":"累進補助是精準扶弱發揮階級翻轉的槓桿效應再來是彈性支用建立動態的安全網對於成長過程的急迫需求專業治理跨核整合跨部會資源落實金融素養教育"},{"start":7070.915,"end":7089.504,"text":"為什麼這個事情這麼迫切呢因為我們去年已經只有10.7萬的新生兒創下歷史新低那小子女國安危機這個大家都很熟悉所以我們必須建立一個長期的資產打破出生決定命運的階級循環拆除讓年輕一代不敢生不敢夢的隱形圍牆"},{"start":7093.903,"end":7107.513,"text":"國教盟肯定草案試圖為226萬的孩子存下第一桶金的善意但高達4500億元的計畫若沒有完善配套可能成為政策陷阱所以我們提出有"},{"start":7112.25,"end":7130.478,"text":"有三個要正視三大面向第一個是財政上的跨代不公第二個是分配上的逆向分配第三是執行上的資金鎖死缺乏資用彈性所以我們提出第一個原則是財政永續拒絕跨代債務我們不應該向未來的成人舉債發給現在的兒童這在邏輯上是不公平的"},{"start":7137.674,"end":7155.102,"text":"因此 國交盟建議不排除債限財源穩定應該來自於稅計剩餘或者是移證稅固定比率並建立專屬且永續經營的兒少發展基金確保政策不因著政治週期波動"},{"start":7156.701,"end":7183.309,"text":"第二供應優先讓資源精準到位分配機制必須符合積極公益現行草案請向租稅扣抵這會造成看得到吃不到的困境全國80%是用低稅率或無居繳稅的基層家庭根本無法從扣抵當中受惠反觀有20%的高所得家庭他不僅有餘力自存還能享受雙重"},{"start":7185.21,"end":7192.938,"text":"稅減獲利所以國教盟主張改採配對撥補政府每一分錢都應該發揮翻轉階級的效益所以這是我們呼籲的要用1比2的高額撥補才能真正縮小起跑線的落差"},{"start":7205.032,"end":7214.244,"text":"國教盟主張的一比二高額撥補是針對弱勢家庭提供更強力的支持這才能真正縮小孩子起跑線的落差落實資產效益"},{"start":7219.486,"end":7243.287,"text":"原則三彈性支用孩子成長的迫切需求無法等待18年帳戶應該是動態的安全網而非死板的定期存單所以我們呼籲應放寬支用限制允許18歲以前帳戶資金申請於早期療癒特殊教育跟心理諮商還有重大傷病醫療的費用"},{"start":7246.237,"end":7272.093,"text":"好原則四就是專業治理落實教育意義帳戶管理必須專業而且整合我們建議評估成立兒少家庭部或專責機構來統籌更關鍵的是這必須與國民教育結合讓孩子從小觀察帳戶的變動培養未來取向的人生規劃能力與金融素養避免18歲時的資產被揮霍"},{"start":7275.97,"end":7297.279,"text":"接下来是从国际界进我们从实证当中寻找最优的路径第一个英国我们得到的启示是必须自动开户与数位追踪免得账户失联在新加坡我们看到的是允许账户资金提前用于医疗与教育的支出韩国与以色列的"},{"start":7300.066,"end":7325.819,"text":"經驗則分別落實了累進式補助與財政穩定永續的重要這些顯示都是自動開戶與累進性補助是確保弱勢不弱隊的觀念所以我們在修正方案上面的一個建議就是我們在財序財源永續跟專業治理的基礎上用配對撥補跟彈性致用支起台灣孩子公平的未來"},{"start":7328.69,"end":7351.642,"text":"給孩子一盞燈也給他們一把梯子4500億元可以是壓垮未來財政的一道草也可以是翻轉社會結構的最後機會政府的責任是為弱勢的孩子搭起梯子讓他們能看見營養高的風景這不僅是增值的投資能救急的保險更是共榮的公益以上是我們國教盟的建議 謝謝"},{"start":7354.251,"end":7357.986,"text":"謝謝中軍委理事現在請陳承斌處長"},{"start":7366.429,"end":7393.994,"text":"主席還有各位與會先進大家早那我這邊是家福基金會社工處的處長陳承斌那今天非常高興能夠受邀來參與這個公聽會那家福基金會長期以來就是陪伴著弱勢家庭那每年其實我們大概會有六萬個兒少其實是在我們的服務體系那在這個服務的過程當中其實我們也可以看到很多貧窮的一個樣態還有就是服務對象"},{"start":7395.134,"end":7416.816,"text":"所面臨的掙扎跟挑戰那其中其實剛剛有一個是跟大家談到蠻多的就是所謂的不平等這個議題我覺得這個不平等這件事情也是家福基金會非常關心的怎麼去擬平不平等創造一個就是平等機會均等共榮的一個社會這個是一直我們所要努力的一個目標"},{"start":7417.657,"end":7445.461,"text":"那我們今天來這邊參與這個公聽會剛剛其實我們的與會先進談了很多就是在應然面那我這邊就是就實然面這邊就是在實務現場上面的一些看見跟大家分享那某個程度我們也是幫我們服務對象發聲透過他們的視角告訴我們就是說這個政策的制定對他們的影響是怎麼樣那我先分享就是說其實大概在2000年的時候家福基金會就是引進了所謂"},{"start":7446.561,"end":7465.734,"text":"資產累積這樣概念的脫貧服務方案其實我們大概也走了20年那我們等於就是混合了所謂的所得維持跟這樣子資產累積這樣概念雙管齊下去服務就是我們的服務對象就對了那在這個過程當中我們歷經了很多的修正那"},{"start":7466.354,"end":7494.434,"text":"我們目前其實針對就是各年齡層比如說幼兒階段學齡階段青少年階段還有大學階段還有包括成年階段其實都有各階段的脫貧服務方案那這樣脫貧服務方案執行下來我們確實是有一些看見在我們內部的實證研究裡面我們會發現它真的是能夠達到所謂的就是資產累積這樣子的一個效果我們有很多研究其實是支撐著我們"},{"start":7494.994,"end":7514.456,"text":"但我們不可諱言的其實我們這樣子每年其實可以進到服務方案的服務對象我剛有提到我們一年大概是6萬個孩子那這樣子大概只有3%左右一年大概是大概五六百位孩子進到這個服務方案那為什麼我們只能夠做到這樣子是因為在"},{"start":7515.137,"end":7530.668,"text":"整體的人力跟資源上面其實是有限的即便我們想要做得更多但是我們可以服務的涵蓋量其實是有限當然我們還是可以透過個案工作跟其他的工作方法去協助家庭那但是在這樣子的"},{"start":7532.089,"end":7554.583,"text":"因著我們這樣的服務經驗我要表達就是說其實我們非常關心弱勢那在協助弱勢這個過程當中需要很多的陪伴跟資源那未來假設當朝野有共識的時候我們這個發展帳戶其實要思考的就是說除了給錢之外針對弱勢這邊我們是不是在服務上面其實是不能夠少的"},{"start":7555.504,"end":7570.298,"text":"但是這個服務上面可能真的要思考的就是說我們要怎麼去做好人力跟物力上面的一個分配是因為這樣子的比例其實以我們的操作線大概是一個社工他是可以服務大概10個孩子左右"},{"start":7570.718,"end":7585.875,"text":"那這樣的成本我覺得也是一定要涉算進去我想我們涉算的不單只是就是說在相對提撥款的部分另外就是說在人力的成本這件事情上面我們是不是也必須要好好的去估算那這樣子整個未來假設我們真的要推動政策的話我們才有可能好好的就是讓這個政策走得好"},{"start":7591.321,"end":7608.91,"text":"我覺得這個是在我們在食物現場上面的看見跟一些建議所以財務這件事情一直也是我們基金會所關心會不會造成所謂的排擠然後會不會造成所謂的就是不均創造出另外一種不均等其實這個都是值得再有更多的對話跟討論那針對就是"},{"start":7612.851,"end":7617.274,"text":"這個發展帳戶我覺得我們有一些建議啦比如說像剛剛與會先進有談到很多開戶的議題確實是在實務現場上面有很多服務對象對於資訊的掌握其實是不充足的那這樣子的設計其實說真的會把它"},{"start":7630.52,"end":7658.737,"text":"歸咎於是個人要為自己負責但我們如果未來可以所謂的普及式的主動幫服務對象尤其是弱勢對象開戶的話我覺得這個其實是可以減少一些就是排除的機會這個是在開戶的部分那另外就是在第一線社工的執行上面其實我們必須要承認就是說第一線社工對於資產累積這件事情的概念他還有很多需要再加強的"},{"start":7659.497,"end":7675.224,"text":"比如說他就會建議就是說因為我們這個其實是要看的是整體長期的效益但是他們就會認為說那家庭如果有急用要幹嘛那是不是可以去使用這樣子的錢我覺得那個是跟整個政策的理念跟目標完全是不一樣所以怎麼讓"},{"start":7676.545,"end":7703.014,"text":"第一線社工在執行上面是更加的清楚我覺得這個是整個政策未來在推動是不是能夠成功很重要的一個因素那最後就是針對服務對象在投資理財這樣子的概念上面的課程其實我覺得這個是必要的因為從小我覺得可能在服務對象他們對於財務管理或是理財這樣子的思維是比較缺乏的那這樣的投資理財也許是可以相牽在"},{"start":7703.494,"end":7721.4,"text":"學校教育的系統裡面其實不用額外再有人去做這些可能在我們的課綱的設計裡面其實就有一些可以去做一些綁定然後可以一起去處理的那以上這是江福基金會的一些建議以上謝謝謝謝陳承斌處長接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7732.905,"end":7757.54,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們談未來賬戶好像來自於川普的提議川普這個總統啊大家要很傷腦筋你看他在說什麼常常前後不一樣但是要注意到他是想什麼如果你知道他在想什麼他今天說張明天說西你大概可以理解而且呢你看他做什麼的時候啊你常常覺得摸不著頭腦但是你要問他的要什麼"},{"start":7758.46,"end":7780.434,"text":"與其問他說什麼不如去探究他想什麼與其問他說看他做什麼不如看他是要什麼好我們來看川普要什麼上面那一頁正確去了解川普啊的帳戶在美國是政府給一次父母接手固啊他只要給你一千美金然後你的衛生巾支付你他幫他支付銀行基金成年才能運用還限制你是教育首顧跟創業"},{"start":7781.815,"end":7805.201,"text":"聽起來很美好啊他的意圖是什麼來他想什麼跟他要什麼川普常常是說我把政府的錢帳面上撥到一個專戶裡面去你不能領哦川普有沒有發過現金啊有啊發現金很傷傷筋骨欸錢就流失了欸可是放在專戶裡錢有沒有出去沒有然後呢政府可以財務調度政府財務調度的時候它產生兩個效果第一個比較"},{"start":7806.414,"end":7827.661,"text":"低所得的他說政府已經幫我小孩存了一筆錢了現在我手上的錢就拿來花促進消費我現在呢不籌錢花的川普幫我儲蓄了那可以我就可以增加儲蓄兩頭啊有所得多的他增加儲蓄因為順便幫孩子存嘛所得低的他就乾脆不存了就拿出來花"},{"start":7828.772,"end":7855.891,"text":"符合他的要的啊促進消費增加稅收政府呢還不用馬上拿錢出來這就是川普要的好往下看那至於我們今天大家想的是什麼呢問問自己未來政府我們要的是什麼呢我聽前面的人都說我們要什麼少子女化的對策你要問對策要問對象啊你要叫人家生小孩你要叫誰生那些沒有生小孩的呢還是已經有一個的呢還是已經生了兩個的如果你問我我會先找誰來生"},{"start":7857.659,"end":7883.112,"text":"就像我如果要跟人家推銷牙膏你要不要試試看我們新型的牙膏啊對不起我不刷牙OK那如果你已經買過牙膏了我跟你說我們一種美白牙膏你買了一條牙膏要不要試試第二條美白牙膏好啊我已經有美白牙膏了第三條有折扣喔你要不要買一下如果你是有對象的你就知道要怎樣對誰下手要是我我會找已經有兩個小孩的家庭為什麼"},{"start":7883.852,"end":7909.817,"text":"他兩個小孩都不怕吵了你怕他生第三個他只是怕什麼怕經濟負擔的不起他都不生你叫他生很難他生了一個他受不了了你叫他生第二個他也不要所以少子化的對策要想對象有了對象才有正確的方法往下看好 結果我們現在呢現在推出來的未來帳號呢它是一個普發現金的時空旅行版什麼叫做時空旅行版錢同樣是一萬元"},{"start":7910.836,"end":7917.705,"text":"不同的時間價格不同你今天問一個手頭比較拮据的人你要現在拿現金一萬還是兩年後給你兩萬"},{"start":7919.005,"end":7947.51,"text":"跟一個像我這樣的人你要現在一萬還是我兩年後給你兩萬我當然要兩萬啊我現在不缺錢嘛兩年後我可以一萬變兩萬我怎麼不要但是你問那個現在比較拮据的人我要拿上一萬過去發消費券的時候有發生明明是三千六有人三千塊就賣掉我不要拿三千六三千我不好用啊我要拿現金你給我三千塊現金三千六給你用是不是這樣子所以普發現金的時空領域版就是承諾你十八歲以後啊政府給你一筆錢"},{"start":7949.131,"end":7957.217,"text":"結果是誰會選比較不缺錢的人選嘛這就是我們在場剛剛很多學者專家說這個普發現金改成了"},{"start":7958.223,"end":7982.035,"text":"未來賬戶就是誰 反向補貼比較不缺錢的人 再往下看所以窮人家今天的麵包變成富二代未來的金幣當政府把這個錢放在給比較有錢的人未來使用的時候他是減少了現在對這些弱勢者的照顧 再往下看所以台灣的民眾怎麼看 有白吃了午餐嗎多數的民眾說贊成贊成 但是也有反對的 你看反對理由這麼多"},{"start":7983.857,"end":8006.542,"text":"所以不見得民眾那麼好被你讓你以為的那麼好相信你的這個美這些美麗的話嘛所以我們來務實來看未來賬戶是什麼往下看他是給孩子的第一桶金還是為了空白支票在英國兒童的信託基金是這種政府自動開戶政府呢啟動現金每個人出來優惠賬戶結果2008年誰先倒政府先跳票啊"},{"start":8011.946,"end":8033.331,"text":"所以不要以為政府承諾的事情都一定做得到啊還要看政府的能力往下看所以到底是奇特平等還是真平等呢有人說怎麼樣才能對這三個小孩可以看到外面人在玩給他不一樣的木箱子嘛這就是民進黨我們委員對於國民黨藍白未來彰化的一個修正方式要有差別"},{"start":8033.971,"end":8060.357,"text":"好再來往那如果是另外一種呢領用的年齡通通要18歲以後結果呢由民進黨委員擺明說哎呀你不要那麼限制那麼嚴嘛你可以讓他有些西方可以用嘛畢竟有的人他的經驗那麼寬裕他18歲之前家裡想動資啊所以這個都是非常比較貼近民意的做法再往下看所以呢我們來看一下所謂的兒童帳戶勞退帳戶不管叫什麼名稱都是概念上都是外來帳戶"},{"start":8061.457,"end":8075.932,"text":"你存給兒童也是未來才能用啊你存給勞工也是退回才能用啊所以我們要問一下大家喜歡的是什麼是兒童帳戶還是勞退帳戶還是你想像的是一個未來帳戶如果你想像是未來帳戶你就抓到重點了"},{"start":8076.693,"end":8100.182,"text":"也就是說為什麼未來帳戶現在具有這樣的一個吸引力因為我們發現以美債來講美債的債息低於拿去做投報的投報率對不對如果美債3% 4%投報率是6%我是美國政府再笨我也是舉債來做投資所以未來帳戶的想像它其實就是一種財務槓桿國家財務槓桿的調度"},{"start":8103.863,"end":8116.748,"text":"所以目前國家槓桿財務調度最讓我們呈現的是什麼下一個就是勞退嘛今天報紙又登了嘛這麼一個大水庫幫我們未來勞工退休金是不是成長了很多錢可是勞退怎麼來的顧主題的嘛字體有沒有不多啊字體就是什麼"},{"start":8125.325,"end":8140.118,"text":"有餘裕的人會提嘛薪資所得較低的人不提嘛所以如果真的要談未來帳戶的吸引力何不就從現有的未來帳戶就是勞退來下手政府拿一些資源讓現在捨不得提的人"},{"start":8141.465,"end":8165.928,"text":"加入這個大水庫他的薪水會隨著年資越來越增加他就會提他一開始不提以後就不提了所以呢我們過去我個人過去也提過一個類似未來政府的概念就是勞退反正政府呢只要你有提我就幫你提一趴五百塊五百塊是什麼平均薪資中位數的五萬塊的這個概念那你超過五萬塊的你可以提一趴你的一趴可能是十萬的一萬"},{"start":8168.61,"end":8188.256,"text":"那我政府還是給你什麼500那你是領3萬的你只要提1%300我也給你放500那這是什麼好處這才是真正的照顧什麼原來因為所得能力較低他不願意加入這個好好康的大水庫的人鼓勵他加入至於那些已經很有錢的人政府也是沒有虧待你啊"},{"start":8188.752,"end":8208.24,"text":"你一個月存一萬 我也是給你五百啊你一個月存一千 我也是給你加五百啊這樣才是符合我們國家對於經濟弱勢者又能夠兼顧未來帳戶的槓桿效果的一個設計 以上說明好 謝謝宗嘉斌委員現在請鄭麗軒教授鄭麗軒主任教授"},{"start":8215.678,"end":8230.975,"text":"主席那理事長還有在座各位先進那我比較因為這個帳戶方面很多專家那我今天可能不要談因為大家談少子化我就比較從這個角度談那當然沒有那麼直接扣連但我想這是大家關心的課題"},{"start":8232.696,"end":8249.323,"text":"當然這個是我們的生意率我們台灣經歷的是我要講的是人類史上前所未見的趨勢我要講的是趨勢當然我們可以找到很多的問題或責任因為我們在1950年的時候我們生意率是7我們現在不到1這個是人類史上沒有見過的"},{"start":8250.283,"end":8272.98,"text":"其他國家也沒有這麼見過我們常常說北歐可是北歐在1950年的時候他們生育率只有3那他們現在大概1.5 1.8左右所以他們其實這個是我想我們也要去了解為什麼在台灣社會討論這個問題很困難因為我們變化太快了我們可能每5年每10年每5歲10歲的人他們對於家庭婚育這些認知通通不一樣"},{"start":8273.86,"end":8302.859,"text":"所以這個是在少子化上面還有相關上面的可以要做一個數據好 那我這個因為時間的關係我就來提那台灣為什麼會有這個完美風暴因為第一個是說我覺得當然第一個是這是好事我們現在是在處理一些社會正面發展副作用我覺得在處理少子化上我會從這樣的角度去看這個副作用確實很大可是我們必須不能忽略就是說它前面可能有一些事情不完全是完全負面的一個當然是說"},{"start":8303.78,"end":8316.88,"text":"我們的社會文化裡面其實生育不再是規範是一個選擇所以當我們用各種開始用各種方式怎麼去促進這個選擇可是其實如果問上一代比如說現在很多人常常會說問你為什麼敢生"},{"start":8319.924,"end":8348.497,"text":"其實上一代是問說你為什麼敢不生這是邏輯是不一樣我們有一個很大社會的在很短時間內的所以我們的生涯未婚率離婚率大幅提高這個是其實它是一個社會更多選擇結果但它的副作用之一就是就是一個那個少子化另外一個有趣的課題是我們大家會看到其實可能很多人我們全世界生育率其實都降得非常非常凶那我那個甚至包括各位可能有一些印象"},{"start":8349.077,"end":8369.875,"text":"中相當高的國家最近兩年都已經跌落所謂生育率二這個替代水準比如說印度可能很多人我每次講都很驚訝孟加拉那泰國其實跟越南都已經是低生育國家所以它是一個世界性的現象那歐美反而有一些國家比如在北歐它的生育率是比較高的那我這樣等一下稍微談一下這個經驗"},{"start":8371.256,"end":8392.666,"text":"但是有一個很重要的現象我們可能在台灣也是必須留意的雖然我並不是說去主張非婚生育但是如果在歐美另外一個生育比較高的國家他們其實婚姻跟生育脫鉤但我們一定是我們基本上非婚生子女比例非常非常低但我不是說鼓勵非婚生子女不過這個是一個我們在比較其他國家上要稍微留意的"},{"start":8393.206,"end":8416.699,"text":"那我們台灣那一個比較大的整體性的問題就是說我們家庭主義的特徵我們育兒還非常家庭責任我們現在雖然慢慢有國家是不是要國家一起養這樣的一個想法可是我們很晚很晚我們很晚那我等一下講一下我們今天為什麼會看到這個這個崩跌它是一個加成的效果那另外一個是說我覺得當然當然是這兩全能都需要照顧但是我們"},{"start":8417.339,"end":8442.948,"text":"我們其實可以講這個在國際上有一個特徵就是某一些國家它會我們的福利好像比較偏向老人但我不知道去鼓勵這個對立但是這個自然人口學上很多討論的就是說我們很在意給了這個錢生育會不會增加但我們很少在意給老人這個錢他會不會多活兩年其實這個我們在思考的基準上常常不一樣那我簡單講一下少子化的歷程我們會比較正確了解問題這是我今天來去講"},{"start":8444.348,"end":8466.06,"text":"很多人在想說其實第一個是說我們在現2000年以前我們生育率的降低主要來自於胎次的減少而不是婚育的減少就是大家生的少了可是大家都會進入婚育這是2000年以前的結構2000年之後我們進入超低生育率可是產生一個很大的變化就是我們有很大量的人並沒有進入婚育"},{"start":8466.72,"end":8493.34,"text":"這個是在2000年以後這一波裡面很重要的特徵我們現在是一個第三波是一個加成的效果因為前面很低的結果我們現在的育齡人口我們知道生育有年齡限制是非常少的所以我們為什麼數量會崩跌是因為我們生育率不但低我們生的人也因為過去很低變得很少我給大家一個簡單的數字在2000年的時候我們的成年人裡面40歲以下佔50%"},{"start":8496.243,"end":8514.443,"text":"那在去年的時候我們成年人裡面40歲以下的只占30%而且在2030年大概就剩下百分之二十幾也就是說我們那個社會的我們過去我們一般育齡定義大概女性來場15到45再加一個生理上的這個限制來講的話"},{"start":8515.945,"end":8540.292,"text":"假如說是在20年前它是很多但我們那時候沒有做得不夠多那整個生育率跌後我們現在其實所以為什麼我們現在發現數量不只生育率很低數量也變得很少是因為它不只是每一個人生得少的而是在這個育齡裡面生的也變得很少了所以大家會發現為什麼數字是崩跌的那個其實是雙重的所以我們現在是一個已經在雙重加成的一個狀況底下所以"},{"start":8542.951,"end":8564.082,"text":"這個是一個在就我的專業上來說就少子化的部分給各位一個大概就是說我們現在是在什麼樣的狀態可能是要比較清楚的理解所以當然我們講說這個胎次多或少當然是個因素只是說它這個因素是因為我們上一個世代經驗是這樣想但是在下一個世代可能是更複雜因為很高比例的人是沒有"},{"start":8565.588,"end":8580.478,"text":"那我給大家一個數字這個就是當然我們只算女性是因為當然生育上女性的就是我們用45到49的未婚因為在台灣未婚幾乎就不會生育那這件事好不好這個每個人有不同看法但我覺得這是個"},{"start":8581.398,"end":8599.929,"text":"那我們給大家看一下就是說我們其實現在45到49他的終身未婚率已經快到三成所以各位可以想一下即使你有生育的人我們剛剛已經講了你的生育輩子很少然後你今天又未婚率非常高所以你會進入這個東西的人數本身就非常非常少"},{"start":8602.201,"end":8619.281,"text":"實際上我們要講就已婚婦女的生育數其實沒有大家想的這麼低雖然也是一直降低我們現在大概是在1.8 1.9左右所以我們其實是有很龐大加上過去累積變得很少我大概再簡單講一下因為時間的關係我想很多其他專家對於帳戶的細節他們有更"},{"start":8621.284,"end":8634.783,"text":"更完整的見解我大概只簡單說我們一般在學界會講說這四類那所以其實如果純以生育的角度當然還有很多其他財務或什麼的目的那這個我覺得有另外討論那現在我們看到這個帳戶它其實還是屬於一種現金的"},{"start":8637.086,"end":8655.184,"text":"跟稅負的補助直接現金的補貼或者是我們講的那個扣除額那實際上我們有四大塊那醫療這一塊好一點是因為我們有健保所以有些國家像美國其實他們生育是非常貴的那我們相對上健保可以支應所以這是好的那現在可能很多人討論的是不是不孕治療我想那是另外一個很大的課題"},{"start":8656.445,"end":8673.292,"text":"那一大類是現金補助然後又托育服務勞動力市場關於所謂育嬰價還有各位剛剛提到的剛剛有委員提到說是不是育嬰價的從無薪變有薪這一些討論那這一套我稱為勞動力市場制度就是說關於生育的人他在"},{"start":8673.752,"end":8695.139,"text":"那我們當然最簡單的是產價產價是很早就有的我們孕假那孕假到底普及率其實也沒有那麼高很多人不敢請但是現在有稍微普及一點然後還有就是說女性的就業保障因為我們很怕生完小孩回去就就沒有工作了這是很多人不願意生他有這意願不願意原因那托育服務剛剛很多人都提到我們托育那個"},{"start":8696.573,"end":8717.767,"text":"那個其實是量不足但這幾年有一些擴張我想那個朝野然後各地方政府中央政府都有很多努力這個是看得到的那不過我們都長期來看我們是很不足的大概在我想現在因為小孩已經很少了所以比較少抽籤10年前的話那個小孩去公托要抽籤那抽不到其實我們民眾滿認命的大家選命不好"},{"start":8718.647,"end":8745.226,"text":"大家不會覺得說為什麼我沒有足夠的所以這個是一個很大的課題那公托包括當然他給很多型態包括公托包括公衆補助我想這個細節在這裡就不多談那我們的實證上第一個是說我們純粹就我是純粹少子的話講那其他的目的我想很多其他人可以討論一次性現金的這當然包括大家提到新加坡這國際上有一些實證他其實對生育率的幫助是不大的幾乎沒有的"},{"start":8745.726,"end":8765.737,"text":"那穩定的津貼稍微好一些但我要講強調這是一個全球性下降趨勢我們是緩解所以穩定性的穩定性的津貼在很多國家有比較穩定的child allowance這些在歐洲國家它是略好的那現在育嬰價它也是略好那真正最重要的是托育系統這個是我們現在大部分的實證所以這個是在"},{"start":8766.636,"end":8790.356,"text":"就少子化的政策的這一個層面那在這裡提出一些那個包括我們少子化的成因還有一些政策的層面好那我們現在當然有一些也是在政策上我認為很重要包括各式政策上都得去考慮的就我們常常假想少子化相關我們會假想一個雙親核心家庭可是這個這類家庭在現代社會也是"},{"start":8791.076,"end":8813.089,"text":"越來越少我們現在統計上我們的家戶所謂的典型家戶是差不多只有一半而已我們有各式各樣其他家戶有些是選擇的有些不見得是選擇包括各種單親的家戶然後隔代的家戶那各式各樣的別居家庭那這些當然都會是在評估這些政策上我認為非常重要是不同類型的家戶可能有不同的需求這個是"},{"start":8814.31,"end":8836.005,"text":"是在少子化討論上那我覺得相關政策也要去把它不管這些帳戶的政策那評估上也要把這個不同家戶會有什麼樣的反應那女性就讓大家多用需求那最後大概我一直在強調就是說我比較希望這個不是一個少子化這個課題不要變成互相指責因為我們就是經歷了一個人類前所未見的事情"},{"start":8837.205,"end":8861.833,"text":"那就是說我覺得這件事情呢我們當然政治上有很多的對立討論但這件事情沒什麼政治好對立的那我們既然面臨一個人類前所未見的時候我覺得其實是大家怎麼樣去用那我為什麼全面性的手段去去去緩解這件事情他很難完全逆轉因為他是世界性的但是我們的幅度就過過於嚴重了嚴重到我們對接下來存續社會的運作會有一些問題"},{"start":8862.873,"end":8878.354,"text":"好 所以因為時間的關係我稍微就在這裡分享我就一個人口的研究者對少子化的還有台灣現在趨勢的一些政策基本理解 謝謝好 謝謝鄭麗萱教授現在請林弘洋教授"},{"start":8890.166,"end":8914.192,"text":"主席以及各位現場夥伴大家好那因為剛剛稍早的一些前輩們已經談蠻多了所以我在這邊的話大概就是選一些重點來跟各位報告一下我這邊的看見坦白說在看這個就是台灣未來賬戶的這個提案的時候的總說明的時候我有點卡住卡住的原因是因為"},{"start":8916.997,"end":8932.062,"text":"其實這個台灣未來的賬戶他談的會是那個財務投資的這個部分的這個手段但一開始所引用的所謂的這個威爾斯他的那個法案未來世代複製法他在談什麼他談的是社會投資"},{"start":8933.669,"end":8960.144,"text":"社會投資我們就是我們在談什麼投資的時候其實都會很直覺的就想到就直接往那個財務投資那邊去連結但社會投資並不是談財務投資他談的會是國家的社會政策他如何運用一些財務然後去輸送到這個各種的福利服務上面去促成人力資本的投資然後以及就整體勞動市場的這個人力的這個發展等等的所以"},{"start":8961.064,"end":8976.193,"text":"一開始的那個的初衷其實就跟後面的這個所採取的各種的手段其實是無關的所以是無關的所以這個一開始的這個草案總說明我記得在第二段的時候其實跟後面是完全脫節的"},{"start":8978.922,"end":9002.061,"text":"那再來的話所以這邊的那個草案的提案理由這邊就是稍微整理如下剛剛其實前輩也談蠻多的一些草案的核心特徵就是全面普及4500億至多16萬然後18萬那至於剛剛的這個試算其實剛剛葉崇洋老師有做一些試算所以這個部分的話就是請各位也可以參考那個葉崇洋老師他的這個計算"},{"start":9003.942,"end":9025.237,"text":"但四大問題的話其實剛剛也就是各位也都有談到啦排擠效應世界500億他是以這一個特別預算來也可以舉債來支應所以他會嚴重他會去排擠到就是社會投資所強調的一些托育服務較薄的品質然後基於勞動市場政策等等這一些"},{"start":9025.757,"end":9042.246,"text":"因為稅投資他比較focus會是在家庭政策會是在教育政策然後以及在勞動市場政策再來的話第二點就是馬太效應剛剛其實也談滿多的馬太效應就是說其實這個政策最後施行的結果會是比較有利於中高所得的家庭跟個人"},{"start":9043.266,"end":9063.271,"text":"所以富裕家庭每年可以存10萬然後企業可能又占住了5萬那對於這個中低所得家庭的這個財力較為不足的這個部分的話他有可能就會拉當然就是剛剛葉老師的這個試算就會看到很明顯的差距差距甚至10倍以上那再來的話其實"},{"start":9065.291,"end":9087.943,"text":"等一下會談到就國際間的相關政策的趨勢他會看到是那個中低經濟弱勢者他的這個他的財務需求所以慢慢的會走向就是他可以及時使用的這樣的一個方向的一個方向那再來的話我也剛才一開始就談到了就是說其實我們說我們要談的是那個就是人力資本的投資"},{"start":9088.743,"end":9110.886,"text":"但這個人力資本投資它並不是資本市場的投資坦白說這個在90年前1936年凱因斯他所發表的那個一般理論General Theory這本書裡面他其實就強力的在談這件事情就是說當時其實很多都在談什麼用財務投資等等的是有效可以回饋到這個人力資本但他說這件事情是不可能的事情"},{"start":9111.426,"end":9121.338,"text":"因為資本投資的話終究會回饋到就是投資者身上但是會不會回流到人力資本這個部分其實那個都還在未定之天可能性也相對較低"},{"start":9123.976,"end":9149.224,"text":"所以這邊的話談到社會投資的話其實去檢視就是目前的這個提案其實它是三個這個功能是完全沒有辦法符合的不管是需要透過這個教育、職業訓練或早期兒童照顧等等這些去促成那個人力資本的存量這沒有再來的話促進就是流量功能就是透過積極當中市場政策來促進當中市場的轉弦這個也沒有看到再來的話就是緩衝所得維持這個部分"},{"start":9153.683,"end":9174.71,"text":"剛剛有談到英國因為本身我在英國念書所以我大概可以或許就多談一些啦那當然就是那個CTF跟後來那個JISAJunior ISA其實他都有蠻明顯的那個馬太效應就剛剛談到的就針對中高所得的這個人口群是較為有利的這也是為什麼這個那個CTF他後來被廢止"},{"start":9175.35,"end":9194.017,"text":"然後而且他後續的很多研究都一直不斷強調這個馬太效應的這個出現再來的話就Junior ISA當然就是啊因為他本身是他雖然說沒有政府相對提撥但是他是讓這個中高所得他是比較能夠透過這個方式去減稅所以他就發展到2018年的Help to Save"},{"start":9194.758,"end":9222.243,"text":"它基本上它是建立在那個Universal Credit我之前提給那個國發會的那個報告裡面我談到說Universal Credit它其實是一種整合性的給付它裡面就包含了像兒童津貼然後失業給付那個住房給付等等這一些它只是說它劃定了每個禮拜給付的上限它基本上那但是呢它這個制度它蠻有趣的就是它拉大了那個可以使用的所得級距只是說當然你的所得越高它給你的那個給付就相對減少"},{"start":9223.263,"end":9247.755,"text":"因此其實有權利或是說有可以就是說eligible就是說可以用來開這個help to save這個帳戶的其實那個人數其實不少所以說它過往的那個執行方式的話它就是兩年就是相對提撥給你一次然後再來再兩年再相對提撥給你一次你四年之後你的這個錢就可以使用那它相對的這個採取的方式就會是為了要讓就是那個"},{"start":9249.055,"end":9270.864,"text":"不好意思我再多用一點時間就是為了要讓就是這個經濟相對弱勢的人口群是有能力去提撥的所以他在同時間他提高了他各種的給付津貼的這個給付水準跟台灣目前的這個做法是有一些些相似我可能就是透過這個提高各種的這個津貼水準讓即便說我這個帳戶裡面他綁了18年所以那我用這樣的方式讓這個"},{"start":9275.886,"end":9300.862,"text":"就是中低所的這個家庭他是有能力更有能力去提撥但是這個後續的那個的一些的效應或許會就是還值得再觀察啦關於新加坡的話其實剛剛都有談到但是從我這邊的話就是會進一步去談就是說他其實跟他其他的那個社會安全制度是綁定的也不能說社會安全制度就是那個公積金制度是完全綁定的所以他並不是一個很單獨的很單獨存在的"},{"start":9303.263,"end":9322.935,"text":"但是我們的這個未來的這個帳戶基本上它是有點像違章建築這樣突然加上去美國今年剛剛談到很多啦那關於那個能否振興生育的話這個部分也稍微整理一下那剛剛其實那個鄭老師其實也談滿多的他是這方面的專家所以說我這邊的話稍微比較一下其實國家最 國際間最佳的實踐就在談到說"},{"start":9325.756,"end":9348.723,"text":"他或許可以普及的參與但是他需要有累進的補助也就是說針對低所得者他要有這個提高他的補助的這個比例那再來就是累進式的這個提撥比例那再來的話育兒時間就可以去使用因為這個會是他在這個養育的育兒的時間他需要去做的事情就是各種的教育或是各種的養育的費用"},{"start":9350.043,"end":9371.688,"text":"那再來的話他目前台灣的這個兒童保險帳戶基本上也已經鑲嵌在社會安全體系裡面但是要如何去調整它讓它更適合這個就是中低所得者的這個使用的話這個會需要再進一步再思考的而不是說就突然出現一個新的制度然後去override就這樣這件事情所以那成本可控然後資源集中"},{"start":9372.908,"end":9401.187,"text":"關於那個4500可以怎麼用我這段話就是嘗試提出啦就當然我們現在還會看到的更需要的或許在擴大公共的這個托育服務特別是這個教保的這個品質以及師資一直一直也在談到那個師資的這個一些老師的對待或是各種的這個條件等等勞動條件等等這個會是我們需要去著力的再來的話就是集體勞動市場政策以及深化這個育嬰價等等這些或許可以再進一步的去思考啦"},{"start":9402.691,"end":9415.322,"text":"以上對所以這大致上的話有一些結論那剛剛其實都嘗試有談到以上謝謝好謝謝林鴻洋教授現在請王振旭委員王振旭委員"},{"start":9433.601,"end":9459.984,"text":"好 非常謝謝我們今天的召委主席安排臺灣未來帳戶特別條例的宮廷會也很感謝現場這麼多的專家學者一起來針對這個議題根據我們所擬定的四個大綱做了非常深入而且非常精彩的一些讓我學習的非常多的內容那我們也很謝謝我們的政府官員"},{"start":9460.865,"end":9484.323,"text":"都在現場聆聽那希望對未來整個在做這個法律的過程裡面有更好更深入的希望達到要解決問題的這個立法的內容那我不知道我是在民國四十幾年出生的嘉義的榮尊子弟我的第一桶金就是我的未來"},{"start":9489.058,"end":9512.984,"text":"這個帳戶裡面是分到一點點的農地我是長孫又是長子所以我有機會在那個時候的制度之下有機會得到我的第一桶金就是小小的農地那個時代大家都很清楚就是如果是農村的話就有機會去因為這樣的家庭的支持之下得到第一桶金"},{"start":9514.898,"end":9543.648,"text":"可是我們現在也知道時代的改變政府用那麼多的力量希望來讓我們的未來下一代有他的第一桶金有未來的帳戶那這樣的對象到底以之前的家庭制度去處理的這個未來的帳戶或第一桶金跟再過來我們要支持的這些對象有沒有差異性那相信每一個家庭都有他對於他的孩子的出生帶來"},{"start":9544.892,"end":9567.083,"text":"很多的喜悅也很希望他能夠順利的成長也讓他能夠有好的這個在他成長過程裡面可以免於其他的一些帶來的衝擊所以我相信這個議題是非常的重要可是哪些的對象是國家特別要去關注的那今天很多專家學者也都有提供"},{"start":9567.657,"end":9590.726,"text":"很多的內容的這些讓我們知道如何在假設未來的帳戶特別條例有機會進入到更周全的討論的時候那我們應該從哪一些立法重點去著眼我就針對於小小的一些內容跟大家做一點分享在這個條例裡面第7條就是針對於"},{"start":9595.203,"end":9613.649,"text":"希望這個未來的賬戶在13年為期程所需經費上限為新台幣4500億元來做這個了解跟討論他在立法說明裡面他就特別提到說目前台灣0到12歲約有226萬人那一開始啟動的資金就1130億就是一開始就是需要有這樣1130億的這個資金來特別支應"},{"start":9624.554,"end":9651.997,"text":"那每一年呢就會需要266億所以三年裡面會預計到4500億左右這樣的需求那這樣的需求到底會不會對於其他的醫療預算造成排擠大家剛剛很多專家學者也都提了非常多的了解還有如果出現排擠的話那應該怎麼樣來處理會是比較適合這邊我們可以看一個數據"},{"start":9653.547,"end":9662.959,"text":"外務部統計出來我們的兒少預算的占比在這幾年來目前我國兒少預算是有5923億元那這個有點增加"},{"start":9667.185,"end":9688.331,"text":"占的GDP差不多是2%左右那如果對比OECD的國家平均照顧兒童兒少的話是6%的水平代表說我們真的還是有需要更多的預算來讓我們的兒少能夠順利的成長那這個6%2%的5923億元裡面呢福利占了19%"},{"start":9694.301,"end":9720.219,"text":"健康6%教育還是最大中占的73%那保護這個兒童孫力成長的相關的這個機制是1%所以如果我們希望能夠逐年來擴大兒少預算這是非常理所當然的事情那我們很期待衛福部這邊未來各個部會都能夠把這個預算的需求列為一個重要的希望能夠編列的地方重點就是錢要怎麼來"},{"start":9721.414,"end":9749.008,"text":"那要怎麼把它做適當的分配我們都了解燒紙化所帶來這個結構的挑戰真的是非常大那怎麼能夠讓資源用得好那到底要先照顧誰這就是大家未來很期許能夠透過今天的公聽會將來在立法的時候可以有更好的方式所以如果今天這個特別條例能夠順利的經過大家的討論的話"},{"start":9750.336,"end":9778.633,"text":"那這些經費會不會去因為是特別條例他還是會造成這個預算上的影響這是我們所擔心也希望能夠透過專家學者共同提供意見給我們來參考那強化弱勢支持還是要無差別的發放這個剛剛專家學者都提供非常多的意見那我們也知道現有的政策裡面目前衛福是在推動兒童及少女"},{"start":9779.811,"end":9808.593,"text":"連未來教育與發展帳戶這樣的情形之下過去這8年來已經當8892位的孩子開了戶他的開戶率是66%那我相信這個是未來的重點如果我們希望真的能夠照顧讓這一群相對弱勢的小朋友們有機會來做階層的流動是重中之重所以如果能夠讓這一群孩子們得到最大最好的照顧"},{"start":9809.729,"end":9836.163,"text":"讓我們對孩子的未來是有所期許對台灣的未來是有更大的幫助的話我相信好的法律的制定會攸關如何能夠讓台灣的社會可以有更好的未來那今天再度感謝我們所有的專家學者能夠提供這麼完整的一些內容讓未來在立法的時候給我做參考再度感謝大家也祝大家身心愉快謝謝"},{"start":9837.938,"end":9842.666,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員的發言現在請陳一鳴教授發言"},{"start":9861.427,"end":9883.083,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們台灣未來賬戶這一個法案其實是有一些很重要的意義在這邊我個人認為其實它是一個兒少發展的種子基金而且它是一項由在野的力量共同推動的國家級的戰略的工程"},{"start":9883.983,"end":9909.574,"text":"那我們知道說因為之前已經有很多的很多談到這個東西但是我還是快速的走一下尤其是他的這個法案的一個一些精神方面其實是應該是有一些特殊的一些創新首先呢就是他是政府的主動的撥入成長的啟動金所以從出生開始呢就是會有五萬元的撥入然後每年一萬"},{"start":9910.294,"end":9939.7,"text":"那重點是他一開始啟動的時候其實是所有在入學的小朋友只要是在這個學齡還沒有那個就是小學沒畢業前期就會有這種自動開戶五萬元會放進去那另外一點很重要的其實他是享有這個付稅跟這個獎勵的誘因也就是說在爸爸媽媽就家長部分的其實是可以也可以投入每年大概十萬元這樣子的而且是有"},{"start":9942.956,"end":9962.977,"text":"這個結稅當然很重要一部分是企業每年需要5萬元可以贊助所以其實可以看到這邊其實很重要的一個精神呢他是希望透過政府家庭還有企業三方來共同的來投入這個未來賬戶同時很重要其實在基金的這個管理方面呢"},{"start":9963.317,"end":9988.228,"text":"它是嚴禁投資而且其實是鎖定的是一個穩健投資的一個指數的投資那設定的就是投資的費率低於0.1%的追蹤DAS盤的這個ETF的這個而且禁止這個槓桿的操作那當然提領的部分是希望是18歲之後然後專款專用"},{"start":9989.128,"end":10008.431,"text":"那在國際上其實已經有很多的這個國家都有實施這個兒童的這個發展的這個基金那從2015年開始英國這邊開始那當然剛剛已經有很多的專家學者也提到不過在這邊可以看到說其實"},{"start":10009.873,"end":10030.613,"text":"很多的國家他們都有不同的做法在美國方面也是有很多的國家很多的州也有在實施這個部分在南非、加拿大甚至新加坡也都有這樣子的一個計劃在去年其實川普的政府也開始有One Big Beautiful Bill"},{"start":10032.375,"end":10053.811,"text":"來做這個大而美的這樣子一個投資的計劃那展示過去的一些狀況我們在這個看到說其實在中央政府的這個稅務的這個金額呢可以看到都是一直在逐年的上升好從105年一兆九千多億呢一直到114年直到兩兆九千億"},{"start":10054.758,"end":10073.685,"text":"那國防預算也是不斷的增加我們看到在一百零五年三千一百二十七億一直到一百一十四年到五千六百億所以我們真正的國安的危機其實是動搖國本的這個少子女化那這個少子女化的問題我記得我在第九屆跟立法委員的時候"},{"start":10074.77,"end":10092.59,"text":"2016年我們才剛上任其實就是一直在討論的就是少子女化的問題那這少子女化問題後來行政院也成立了這個衛福部也成立了少子女化的辦公室我還記得那個時候好像是主任秘書是王宗熙也擔任了這辦公室的主任"},{"start":10093.425,"end":10122.472,"text":"在這個少子女化的問題從2016年一直到現在好像10年來這個問題不僅是沒有解決而且到了這個112年都已經低於都已經到了總生育率掉了0.87這個已經遠遠的低於維持人口規模所需的2.1世代的這個更替的水準所以顯然這樣子的過去的10年來這個政府是沒有對策而且一直"},{"start":10123.352,"end":10150.919,"text":"一直是節節敗退那到底是出了什麼問題到底有沒有什麼其他的一些政府的政策是可以改善的呢那所以問題的這個根源其實就是起跑點這個線上面的這個巨大的落差我們知道說其實現在台灣其實面臨一個狀況就是一個M型的時代也就是跨時代的這個資產跟機會的這個差距是持續的擴大"},{"start":10152.66,"end":10170.397,"text":"而且財富教育跟資本的收益高度的集中於少數的家庭那傳統的應急的生活的補貼其實不足以支撐這個長期的發展的條件在制度上也缺乏長遠的資產累積的規劃使得這個階級翻轉這樣子的希望"},{"start":10174.321,"end":10201.509,"text":"是消磨殆盡所以我必須要說台灣的未來賬戶其實就是一個兒少發展的一個種子基金也是給他們一個希望取我們下一個世代一個未來所以它的根本性的思維的改變是從福利補貼到資本的投資也就是透過投資下一代在勞動力跟人力資本具有制度化"},{"start":10202.169,"end":10216.27,"text":"可預期性而且可以累積的特性那當然之前有一些學者專家也提到說在這樣子的一個設計方面可能會擴大貧富的差距但是我個人認為有時候在"},{"start":10218.032,"end":10246.056,"text":"制度面裡面如果說我們能至少給他們一桶人生的第一桶金讓他們知道說他們在18歲的時候可以有一個賬戶可以提領可以做很多的事情對年輕的學子跟我們的下一個世代來講對他們是給他們一個希望讓他們可以早一點的開始學習如何投資理財更重要的地方就是我們是給他們一個信任我覺得政府很重要的"},{"start":10247.116,"end":10275.861,"text":"是要給我們下一代一個信任不是一個distrust不是不信任他們是要信任他們信任他們讓他們有機會可以透過這樣子的一個台灣未來帳戶可以開拓他們的人生那過去我想這個在2016年2017年的時候我們其實面對的這個剛我提到的少子少子女化的這個對策辦公室成立"},{"start":10276.79,"end":10282.437,"text":"當初我想那個時候陳時中部長在的時候我們也有提出很多的建議我記得當初我站在這個地方"},{"start":10283.004,"end":10311.831,"text":"我也有提出一些政策希望能夠效法歐美的一些政策甚至還有日本的一些政策能夠解決少子女化問題但是十年來我們看到少子女化問題一直是節節敗退而且沒有一個翻轉的跡象但是經費經費是一直在增加可以看到說這是衛福部的提供的資料也是少子女化的這個政策的經費"},{"start":10313.394,"end":10325.586,"text":"2018年他的將近110一直到2026年還是決算數都進到了300多億但是他的執行率你看到是2025年2024年只有86.8%到了去年的上半年只有38.9%"},{"start":10331.172,"end":10354.563,"text":"那但是如果你看到內政部的資料其實這個少子女化不是只是衛福部在做整個內政部在做經費甚至到了去年達到1200億那在這樣子的情況下我們的這個顯然這個這個輸生率總輸生率的問題還是一樣的是沒有得到解決所以我認為"},{"start":10356.183,"end":10385.132,"text":"台灣未來賬戶其實是有制度化的是建立一個可預期而且可以累積的一個資本的支持方案投資性的是國家對於未來的勞動力與社會穩定的一個長期的投資而且它具有公平性是為每一個孩子儲存自力的資本落實資本起跑線的平權因為時間關係我們這邊看到新加坡的baby bonus的一個計畫所以"},{"start":10386.299,"end":10409.629,"text":"最後做個總結我們台灣未來帳戶其實這個立法是非常非常的重要它是為台灣的長遠發展奠定穩定的基石我們的小朋友是沒有辦法選擇出生的背景但是透過立法確保每一位台灣的孩子在踏入社會的那一天都能擁有一份是由國家家庭"},{"start":10410.169,"end":10427.374,"text":"以及企業共同儲備的自力的資本而最終的目的其實是要重建世代的信任來落實資產起跑線的平權好 謝謝謝謝陳以明教授現在請陳芬林教授陳芬林教授謝謝"},{"start":10433.477,"end":10442.365,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位先進 大家好感謝今天有機會來這邊可以發表一些對於這個新的政策一些看法"},{"start":10443.345,"end":10471.776,"text":"那我想對於少子女化我還是著重在於這個草案他原本想要達到的目的他是希望解決我們少子女化的問題那這個至少這個過去其實我們台灣少子女化問題真的是蠻嚴峻的所以任何的政策其實都非常歡迎因為過去我們花在這個家庭及少年的或是子女小孩的身上的經費實在是非常的少那這個"},{"start":10474.365,"end":10498.07,"text":"我其實就來參加三次公聽會那每次來公聽會我都說那個沒救了這個問題神仙也救不回來但是事實上這個很多學者今天都提到這個新加坡的這個所謂的未來丈夫的一個方案發展丈夫的方案那剛好去年過去半年我都在新加坡大學當訪問學者那所以大家所提到的一些對新加坡的了解"},{"start":10498.77,"end":10527.315,"text":"可能都多少有點出入可能沒有達到那個核心這個核心的這個樣貌那身為一個學者身為一個福利的學者去新加坡這個可能對福利好像做得不太好看起來好像做得不太好的地方但事實上它在所謂的這個兒童的相關的福利其實是做的可能是亞洲最好的一個國家而且是花錢政府花錢花的最多的一個國家"},{"start":10528.095,"end":10542.857,"text":"那主要也是因為它如果你們看這個圖表的話就是藍色的線是新加坡的線那紅色的是台灣的那它在1980年代它就比我們低了如果看藍色的線的話"},{"start":10544.118,"end":10568.926,"text":"他就他那時候就掉得比台灣還要低所以所有的跟新加坡有關的這個兒童相關的政策都是在1980年代就開始做他比我們更早來做那後來這個我們的兩你可能看得出來說他一直都很低跟台灣一樣一直都很低但是請不要忘了他從1980年代他這麼低的情況下他至少是現在是比台灣高一點點"},{"start":10570.086,"end":10586.771,"text":"那台灣大概從2000年才開始做一點點事情那一直到現在都沒有做太多事情所以其實雖然說是沒救了但是至少可以維持如果我們現在不做的話可能生育率就以我們在教育現場"},{"start":10587.771,"end":10610.55,"text":"所知現在年輕人不要講是結婚了他可能連談戀愛他都不願意談他連交朋友都不願意交他其實未來的我們的樣貌其實是更嚴峻的一個狀態所以該做的所有該做的事情現在其實都該做了那剛剛過去我們一直做得不好雖然我們開始有學那個Sheridan提到這個所謂資產累積的帳戶"},{"start":10612.151,"end":10626.264,"text":"但是過去這個如果跟我們這個樣貌做得比較像的只有英國跟新加坡是普發性的其他國家生命所舉的例子的國家其實都是選擇性後面還有一個以色列也是普發性的"},{"start":10627.305,"end":10645.458,"text":"但是每個國家的目的都不一樣如果他是只給貧窮戶的話他其實就是為了他脫離貧窮希望父母親的弱勢不要延續到下一代但只有新加坡他是為了能夠促進生育他的目的是跟我們一樣的英國的目的也跟我們不一樣以色列的目的也跟我們不一樣"},{"start":10646.579,"end":10672.832,"text":"那但是英國我們都知道他只實施了一段時間後來就因為財務的問題而停辦雖然剛剛有很多人嘲笑英國他停辦之後的停辦但是事實上他的這個帳戶沒有領走的累積到現在他的財富也到了一個蠻一定的程度所以你累積到後面都會變成一筆就是蠻大的一個經費就是雖然沒有領走雖然停辦"},{"start":10674.053,"end":10682.156,"text":"好 那是過去我們台灣一直只是事實上是一直有一些問題的那對於低收為什麼它有問題因為對於低收物貨來講剛剛也有學者就專家提到它誰吃了不夠 還想要拔光所以這對他們來講是很難去參加的那另外一個大問題就是18歲以前是不能動用的"},{"start":10693.539,"end":10716.172,"text":"那此外就是他低收入或中低收入戶他資格是有改變的他每年會有一些變動所以他如果有所變動他其實是被kick out他被踢出這個計畫那此外就是這個經費沒有被好好的運用投資他其實只有一個儲蓄的作用但是這個新的草案其實是打算是交給勞動基金運用局那這個是一個正確的做法因為他們有專業他們這幾年績效也非常好"},{"start":10718.573,"end":10736.365,"text":"你的基金才可以成長也就它結合了儲蓄跟投資兩個方面不同的做法過去的方式是希望著重在於要派人輔導但是是派誰是派我們社工我是社工系的老師是派我們去輔導我們社工懂得窮人但是我們並不懂得投資"},{"start":10737.566,"end":10757.527,"text":"那所以如果說我們提到這個新加坡的帳戶的話那剛剛多說一些有一些這個沒有提到的一個部分大概就是說他其實在18歲以前他就可以用了只要你是用在教育用在醫療用在保險包括醫療保險包括幼兒的保母費兒童照顧費用都可以在18歲以前動資"},{"start":10759.289,"end":10775.3,"text":"而且他在後面有一個接續帳戶如果沒有使用完的話他會接續到一個高教的一個帳戶那更重要的是他有一個鼓勵他有一個政策目標他鼓勵三胎以上那如果看他的撥補的話是隨著不同的台數給不同的撥補金額"},{"start":10776.941,"end":10799.469,"text":"尤其是三胎以上他就大量的撥補就是他有一個鼓勵性他有一個政策目標性存在這對於新加坡來講非常的重要是因為他是一個很小地方他要發展經濟人才對他來講非常的重要如果生不出小孩他未來會沒有足夠的人力去發展他的經濟抱歉也是一樣對不起一分鐘之內結束"},{"start":10800.769,"end":10817.199,"text":"那所以剛剛有一些錯誤的是說CDA就是兒童發展帳戶其實它搭配的它先開的是這個帳戶就是它先開的是一個叫baby bonus的帳戶那你在出生的時候包括我們這邊的生育津貼"},{"start":10818.24,"end":10822.665,"text":"還有兒童這個現金帳戶現金獎勵育兒今天他其實都撥到這個所謂的兒童的baby bonus的帳戶然後你的這個兒童發展帳戶會隨時的開自動會幫你開了這個帳戶就會自動開而這個帳戶是父母親跟兒童共同的帳戶父母親隨時可以提來用"},{"start":10837.319,"end":10858.446,"text":"換句話來講我們的建議也是一樣就是說你必須要先解決我們生了小孩這個家庭的一些困擾你18歲以後才能夠動之的賬戶可不可以鼓勵一個家庭去生一個小孩我現在就活不下去了如果兩個夫妻都賺三萬塊我生一個小孩我就已經要花很多錢我怎麼有能力再去生兩個"},{"start":10859.526,"end":10874.275,"text":"所以你現在可以花到的錢才是重要如果我們今天有一個兒童發展帳戶絕對不能等到18歲才能夠運用如果我們想要鼓勵生育的話請依照他的胎數給階梯式的補助每一個國家有不同目的依照你的目的而去設計"},{"start":10875.636,"end":10901.934,"text":"那此外就是要考慮18歲以前是可以動資的那你可以開放一個20%或30%的金額你是可以提早動資的因為前面就要用到請理解育兒家庭他經濟的困境他沒有辦法等到18歲那另外就是什麼樣的家庭剛剛很多學者提到什麼樣的家庭是可以從這個方案去獲利如果說我們擔心是中下階層是無法獲利的其實也可以考慮中上階層這個帳戶是變成一個免稅的帳戶"},{"start":10905.536,"end":10923.934,"text":"中下階層才去撥補那其實對於一般的家庭來講這都還是一個好的方案那最大的問題在於這個設計18歲以後他是沒有一個計畫沒有規劃如果我們要鼓勵所謂的儲蓄的話其實應該鼓勵他留在帳戶留在累積才對"},{"start":10924.855,"end":10950.663,"text":"那這個現在的設計在28歲其實就把你kick out那也沒有講得很清楚18到28歲他到底怎麼去累積這個財富那如果我會建議說我們如果有接續沒有接續賬戶的話建議把他提前開一個勞工就是還他的個人賬戶直接接續到勞工的個人賬戶如果這筆錢他現在不用其實為什麼英國跟新加坡需要預設18歲他需要提出來"},{"start":10951.303,"end":10975.337,"text":"是因為他們的學費很貴他大學學費非常貴新加坡可能念一個大學一年要22萬英國的話要3萬磅到4萬磅基本上是150萬台灣其實只要最多10萬塊一年如果他18歲用不到他想要累積到他退休那我們其實可以接濟到個人帳戶制累積到退休其實非常可觀也可以解決我們老年貧窮的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":10978.291,"end":10984.134,"text":"我分享到此謝謝陳芬玲教授現在請王育民委員王育民委員謝謝主席還有謝謝今天出席的專家學者還有我們的政府官員我想台灣我們現在已經面臨到一個關鍵的時刻什麼關鍵的時刻我們的少子化的議題"},{"start":11006.112,"end":11023.549,"text":"真的已經變成國安議題了剛剛陳教授提供的資料是到這個2024年最新的2025年是更慘我們的出生率沒有最低只有更低我們去年我們的出生率來到0.695"},{"start":11027.609,"end":11044.126,"text":"0.695我們比南韓我們比新加坡我們在亞洲國家我們在全世界應該就是最低的了那這麼低的數字有沒有看到底呢 沒有今年的一二月的出生人數比去年還要低"},{"start":11044.881,"end":11056.612,"text":"去年我們總體人數有超過10萬但是我在這邊很憂心的講我們今年的出生人數保持大有問題應該是達不到"},{"start":11058.806,"end":11075.043,"text":"那在這樣一個情況底下我覺得我們已經來到一個關鍵時刻政府應該要大開大合讓所有的年輕人有信心就是國家要跟你一起養國家願意投資孩子投資孩子的未來不會是一個口號"},{"start":11077.265,"end":11104.81,"text":"而是一個行動 而是一個大計畫而今天台灣未來帳戶我覺得就是由國民黨跟民眾黨兩黨再也黨共同商議覺得應該要啟動的大計畫事實上民進黨也有不少委員也有共同類似的主張所以我想這個在立法院裡面這個看法其實是蠻一致的那主要真的是來到了關鍵時刻"},{"start":11106.297,"end":11124.824,"text":"那我們一直說國家跟你一起養真的不能再是口號了所以國家必須投資這個是第一個我要講的第二個剛剛其實很多專家學者都提到了新加坡的經驗美國的經驗那新加坡跟美國都會是在我們心目當中覺得是一個進步發展經濟力強盛"},{"start":11127.205,"end":11155.821,"text":"而且国家有能力去照顾人民的这样的一个强大的国家新加坡人口虽然少但是你不能否认它是一个强大的国家它的经济力很好人民所得很高国家受人敬重那我们台湾我们也一方面常常说我们的经济力很好那这个经济力很好你要反馈成什么就是我们常常喜欢说投资下一代就是投资国家的未来"},{"start":11156.3,"end":11169.154,"text":"所以基本上這樣的一個計畫跟國際接軌跟美國跟新加坡看齊這個是它有一定的我們也要成為一個進步繁榮富庶有能力照顧下一代的國家第三個"},{"start":11171.404,"end":11192.37,"text":"這樣的一個台灣未來帳戶其實是一個觀念的大翻轉也是做法的大改變我們已經有衛福部原來的福利體系我們有津貼的發放我們有針對弱勢的照顧但是下一步我們應該要跨出去的是把這樣子的一個福利照顧翻轉成是一個投資的概念"},{"start":11192.95,"end":11208.35,"text":"就是從國家的力量加上個人的力量我們共同來投資孩子那我認為這個是一個跨出去很大的一步另外這一個方案更大的意義是什麼以兒少為主體"},{"start":11209.506,"end":11230.237,"text":"過去我多年嘗試兒少福利工作其實我們常常在修兒少權法 兒少福利法我們常常都說孩子是獨立的個體孩子應該是你要完完整整去尊重他的意願所有聯合國裡面 兒童權利公約講的就是你要回到這個主體本身"},{"start":11230.797,"end":11248.178,"text":"他不再只是一個受補助跟輔助的對象而今天我們的台灣未來賬戶正是用這樣的一個概念我們去投資孩子讓他變成自己的主人讓他將來在成人之後有一筆資金他可以去規劃去運用"},{"start":11250.42,"end":11266.324,"text":"去投資自己去強化自己他要去接受訓練也好然後他有另外升學的規劃也好或是他要做他自己的分配也好我們完完全全尊重就是兒少他的主體性當他"},{"start":11269.49,"end":11285.611,"text":"滿18歲的時候有一筆國家為他投資的帳戶或者是他的爸爸媽媽也相對性在投資來的帳戶他有一筆資金他可以自己做主人他知道要怎麼樣去規劃跟運用我覺得這個在意義上面是非常重大的"},{"start":11286.372,"end":11299.121,"text":"那剛剛有聽到非常多的專家學者當然對於未來在施行的細節方面到底還有哪一些要更細膩的要去注意到的我覺得都很好但是從這整個我們現在的社會環境的大局來看我覺得我們整個台灣社會在看待兒少的眼光跟我們應該要去做的事情也應該要翻轉的"},{"start":11310.189,"end":11336.181,"text":"所以特別是少子化我們一方面是要建構的是讓大人安心覺得政府有在動國家有在做而且是願意用更大的力氣來做但另外一方面我們也要讓我們的兒少我們少子化這個趨勢雖然不可能立刻止跌回升或者是大幅的拉升但是我們要確保在台灣這片土地出生的每一個兒少"},{"start":11337.381,"end":11365.586,"text":"我們是認真的看待我們願意投資我們願意栽培他們他們將來只要每一個兒少他們將來都透過國家的力量獲得好的一個栽培那他在這一塊台灣的土地他可以發展然後他可以展現自己的能力這個也是非常的重要所以我們要去栽培我們的下一代我們就要去投資所以我要告訴大家的是在今天這樣一個方案上面"},{"start":11366.704,"end":11394.698,"text":"我們面臨到什麼樣的環境然後我們希望有什麼樣的做法美國跟新加坡給我們一個很好的示範而我覺得最重要的是這個方案的精神是回到以兒少為主體然後這個帳戶是屬於他們的他們將來可以去分配使用我覺得這一個的意義真的是非常大而且我們雖然是少子化我們如果好好栽培每一個孩子雖然沒有辦法對抗這樣的浪潮但是我們可以讓每一個孩子變得更好"},{"start":11395.997,"end":11406.321,"text":"這個是我希望未來大家可以共同來支持我們社會可以共同支持台灣未來帳戶在台灣可以順利的條例通過我們共同來實踐謝謝謝謝王月明委員現在請李靜玲教授"},{"start":11420.086,"end":11432.365,"text":"主席各位先进大家好我是李静玲今天非常荣幸来到现场可以听到各位先进对于台湾未来账户的一些看法在"},{"start":11434.218,"end":11460.749,"text":"前天我要思考说我要准备怎么样的这个讨论的资料的时候其实看这个新的条例草案然后和回头去看我们儿少账户的条例其实想了很久那我想就是刚好跟各位先进讨论的方向不太一样我想说其实回头看一下我们的儿少教育方案账户当年其实在"},{"start":11461.889,"end":11470.619,"text":"就是蔡总统提出这个儿少教育发展账户的时候其实大家也想过就是经济弱势他们要存钱"},{"start":11471.4,"end":11495.743,"text":"这件事情是一件多么困难的事那个每次去访案家案家都跟我说我请假都没搞你还叫我拍桿但是回头看一下其实我们儿少账户推动了一段时间那我们也经历过两次的调查那其实我们在第一线看到家长他们其实表示他们其实看到了开户的好处"},{"start":11497.41,"end":11521.067,"text":"經濟弱勢也是希望為孩子來去存錢而且其實我們看到更正向的是這些有開戶有在存款的家長他其實更傾向於想像孩子以後可能有翻轉的機會這個部分當然大家還是在討論說其實開戶率不是這麼高六成可是"},{"start":11522.168,"end":11544.056,"text":"六成的家长他其实我们换个角度来想有六成的家长其实是参与了这个儿少发展账户然后他们其实也看到了这样的好处那当然我们在每一次的调查里面其实也看到一些必须要改善的建议那这等一下我们会再进一步来讨论好那所以刚刚最早"},{"start":11544.756,"end":11571.428,"text":"我们郑立真老师我师承郑立真老师他是师承Michael Sheraton所以我们一系下来都是做资产累积理论的发展账户的研究再一次的recap一下Michael Sheraton他其实建议的就是我们过去只对经济弱势做所得的提供其实是不够他们翻转"},{"start":11572.386,"end":11597.845,"text":"就是他们的这个未来还有甚至是他们的孩子所以其实Michael Stratton的建议是我们不只要给他们最低的所得支持我们还进一步应该去协助他累积资产所以在Michael Stratton提出资产累积理论之后的在这30年间刚刚所有先进提到的不管是美国的账户新加坡的账户"},{"start":11599.025,"end":11627.08,"text":"甚至非洲国家然后还有韩国他们其实都在推动这些儿童发展账户那其实都是根据Michael Charlton这个概念那Michael Charlton他们的研究团队也在也在这个资产累积理论之后的30年又进一步的提到了这个如果我们要做普及的儿童发展账户应该有哪些要素那简单的罗列在这边当然包含有普及的资格自动的注册"},{"start":11627.74,"end":11656.915,"text":"那其实今天我们在谈儿少发展账户跟台湾未来账户里面有一个很大的区别就是如果要针对低收入户跟弱势家户的孩子可以获得额外的提拨的话其实是才能够有助于我们的这个社会投资的意义去协助缩小这个贫富差距然后去协助这些经济弱势去在资产累积上"},{"start":11657.748,"end":11684.486,"text":"有进一步的可能那所以回头我们来看一下就是这个台湾未来账户的草案那各位先进都提到这件事情就是制度设计其实是要因应少子女化那可是用存款的方式是不是好方式这件事情是我们一直在思考的因为"},{"start":11685.888,"end":11713.777,"text":"从实证研究上前面的先进也都讲到解决少子女化职场然后托育服务这些其实才可能是对于妇女可能有进一步有感的这种措施而不是像大家刚前面一下跟大家提到的这个经济弱势都会问我说18年那她们这个育龄妇女面对于要生育的时候她"},{"start":11714.994,"end":11740.354,"text":"迫切需要的这些支持是账户可以解决的吗然后再来就是没有回应排富的这个议题那排富的议题其实是就像我们刚刚说的连Michael Stratton他们的研究团队其实都非常强烈的要建议我们应该要有一些特别的机制来去协助经济弱势去存款不然的话其实就像各位先进所谈到的"},{"start":11741.533,"end":11763.792,"text":"只会就是穷人都不存钱然后富有者就是可以不断的为他们孩子做更多的累积那所以再回头看我们的儿少账户我们的儿少账户其实有一个非常特别跟国际上其他账户都不一样的设计是我们有社工的关怀跟服务我们社工其实是会主动的去介入"},{"start":11764.292,"end":11779.479,"text":"这些家户他们在面临存钱的困境的时候去协助他们那当然我们的儿少账户有没有需要改善的地方也是有因为像我们第一线去访谈家户的时候其实就有家户跟我们说"},{"start":11780.959,"end":11807.835,"text":"我家三个小孩就是前面两个都在105年之前生的他们就不能存钱我都不好意思告诉他们说我有帮你们家帮我们家这个最小的小朋友在存钱我都不知道怎么面对前面的就是哥哥姐姐所以其实如果说我们可以再就我们现有的儿少账户去做一些政策上的这个更精进包含可能更扩大照顾我们的弱势儿少因为"},{"start":11808.835,"end":11838.167,"text":"弱势额少其实包含的范围很多不是只有低收中低收对那如果我们可以就这个部分来去做精进然后另外其实在这个存户他的这个存款的弹性运用上也许可以思考像新加坡这样子的角度就是他在不同的进入不同的教育阶段的时候可能会有一些不同的这个弹性使用的空间那应该会是对我们未来额少教育发展账户可能有更好的这个调整以上谢谢"},{"start":11840.563,"end":11846.492,"text":"謝謝李敬明教授現在請周明勇執行長周明勇執行長"},{"start":11857.008,"end":11877.759,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會先進 大家好我是中華人文記家庭守護者協會的執行長周明勇我們在第一線也有一些看見那針對這個法案其實我們有一些基本的想法那首先我還是想要因為今天聽了很多的說法我覺得也蠻有意思的那我一直想問的是究竟這個台灣未來的責務他到底想要解決什麼問題"},{"start":11878.98,"end":11895.645,"text":"因為如果我們什麼問題都想解決其實是等於解決不了問題所以想提出兩個定位來跟大家分享也一起來思考第一個定位是他如果是一個針對支撐育兒的支持系統其實就像剛剛前面有一些先進說到他這個法案如果是為了因應少子化"},{"start":11896.245,"end":11914.839,"text":"來支撐育兒者他其實應該是從懷孕到18歲19年的一個支持系統才對也就是說平常存錢要用的時候就要用錢這才會是一個支持系統的可能性這個部分其實我們現實很清楚就是包括買尿布奶粉這些錢其實對育兒家庭都是很大的一個支持"},{"start":11915.299,"end":11931.765,"text":"然後再來就是後來的安親班雖然我們現在說安親班政府正在努力但實際上大家在等的是最便宜的那個公托的費用其實不是在排班親班是在排費用安親才藝補習這都是育兒家庭的實際開銷假設這個帳戶能夠有一些部分的"},{"start":11932.505,"end":11948.685,"text":"特定項目的臨時提用才能夠減輕育兒的壓力草案說18歲錢不能領這不是支持育兒是他是把錢鎖死的當然我知道在草案的設計有其他想法但是實際上就像剛剛前面大家有講的一個單親媽媽孩子生病只要用錢不能用"},{"start":11949.566,"end":11976.978,"text":"或者說當這個賬戶每月存錢比如說排擠他就做了另一個排擠的效應就是這些家長他可能讓孩子要學才藝我們現在多元入學各位家人知道嗎有很多才藝費要付這比以前我們小時候讀書還辛苦這個都是為了推真的優勢條件這是家長對孩子的發展的想法現在家人也都知道學習歷程其實可以花錢買雖然教育部說不可以但實際上我們知道自己要做這些學習歷程花的錢非常的多可這件事若是兒童他有辦法做嗎他沒有辦法"},{"start":11978.959,"end":12004.932,"text":"所以這個部分如果真的要支持育兒其實是要從這個角度去思考第二個定位如果我們真的面對少子化我自己看到的是其實國際研究裡面當然剛剛各位教授有提到但有一個點大家好像沒有注意到是深圳最大的CP值是提升結婚率結婚率有了才有生育率剛剛有一位教授稍微提到關於結婚的問題所以應該是如果我們正在面對少子化事實上還在成年的時候有低桶金好讓他可以結婚"},{"start":12006.315,"end":12029.063,"text":"我們在講少子化是講現在可是這些孩子的下一代也一樣會遇到少子化的議題所以第二個是根據全家盟最近做了一個1864份的有效論卷他在問生育率過低的問題有91%的認為是經濟壓力為主因這大家都知道他們也講假設有每月補助三萬元有一半人會考慮生育這個三萬元大概等於我們目前的最低薪資左右"},{"start":12029.463,"end":12054.424,"text":"也就是說這個育兒不論是剛剛大家講的職場的育兒價還是什麼他的費用如果不能頂替一個雙薪家庭的正常生活水準他其實是不會考慮育兒的好所以支持育兒是第二高要準備生第二胎的CP值最高的做法好那再根據111人力銀行的調查本來68.4年輕人表示如果房價不下跌薪資沒有提高那他們是不願意生的"},{"start":12055.064,"end":12072.444,"text":"回過頭來年輕人不敢生育的原因其中有一個是買不起房子他排行第一名所以不敢結婚是因為不能買房所以這筆錢到底能不能放在他成年後的購屋支配款就很關鍵了如果18歲一筆錢能夠付頭期款或許他才敢結婚那才會有生小孩"},{"start":12073.004,"end":12100.638,"text":"如果是面對少子化草案板目前是現隸代就學就業租屋他缺了幾個項目比如說像剛剛講的結婚或生育對於生育率的幫助其實是會比預期小很多他可能可以有幫忙發展但沒有要幫忙我們要講的小少子化再來關於牌付條款目前的牌是沒有牌付條款我看剛剛前面有幾位教授跟主機處也都有提到關於這個部分我必須要說一件事情其實台灣的牌付很有趣因為我在第一線場他訂的不是牌付他其實是定義貧窮"},{"start":12102.711,"end":12123.366,"text":"我們現在定義的是貧窮不是排富所以實際上真的要把貧窮然後我們現在的貧窮條款又把門檻拉得很高所以有很多實質貧困的孩子是被擋在門外的因此我的建議是應該還是要有排富條款但是應該是稅收守得前15跟20的家庭的孩子是真的排富不是把後面的貧窮定義出來說我有做排富不是這樣做的"},{"start":12123.906,"end":12152.702,"text":"省下的資源才是放在後段的中低收入的加倍提撥這個跟剛剛前面幾位夥伴講的差不多主要是讓這些稅繳的少或繳不起稅家長能夠得到更多的支持當然查稅與核實是需要國稅局幫忙的因為我知道有些人也很會避稅然後再來就是在部會分工前面大家都有提到所以我也是想要提幾個部分第一個是真的我們社工沒有受過財務的訓練所以教育我們在用錢這件事情是不是可以教育單位先行介入"},{"start":12153.882,"end":12167.512,"text":"我記得我之前回去學校的時候老師問我說那個社工系有沒有該增加科目我說初等會計因為我們核銷很辛苦我再往下走最重要的是我覺得大家都比較沒有提到是錢存進去了誰來教孩子怎麼用"},{"start":12168.769,"end":12189.649,"text":"因為我們在第一現場安置機會孩子我們守護他的錢不要被媽媽偷走他離開的時候拿了27萬結果三個月後期一台大改後的機車回來然後告訴我說他現在去做微視我們全都傻了我們這十幾年對你的協助沒有為什麼沒有在當年沒有財務教育所以孩子出去他的想法就是我終於可以做決定了好剛剛夥伴講說其實孩子要練習做決定"},{"start":12191.71,"end":12219.557,"text":"所以在剛剛老師所分享的幾個英國的基金他其實有另一個配套方案好像一直都沒有人說就是JT計劃他有一個為期六階段的線上課程從算術開始一直到財務意識然後包括他們未來的規劃這些培訓是有的最後英國體系他們不管英國或南非他們有一個生命導師計劃他們其實用一對一的方式陪伴弱勢的孩子也就是一個社區的成熟的成人帶著孩子往前走所以我們沒有人這個部分我覺得還蠻有趣的"},{"start":12220.117,"end":12246.573,"text":"所以在整個家庭功能被現代社會弱化的過程當中其實家長也沒有財務跟投資的嘗試這個部分其實不能這樣做的最後我必須還要再談一個關於罰則我們的條款裡面沒有罰則我必須說在英國在審議兒童信託基金他有講過如果為詐騙者開一個賬戶能夠獲利500英鎊罰款只有300英鎊這會形成犯罪的誘因同樣的我們過去在第一線保護這麼多孩子不要把錢被領走我們在裡面有沒有罰則"},{"start":12247.273,"end":12270.868,"text":"而且這罰則不能是行政罰則因為我知道後來行政罰則會很難追最好是有刑事這個部分其實英國的在判例裡面也講不能有民事手賠而必須要有公訴罪跟刑責才有嚇阻力那對於近資產者好像比較沒有提到這筆錢到底怎麼用因為我們有夥伴在做雙勞他的池袋的孩子老了長大了那這筆錢會怎麼做好像條款裡面沒有特別提到"},{"start":12271.602,"end":12291.532,"text":"再來關於之前因為我在新聞上有看到我們部長在提到預算排擠的問題其實我從第一線上看到幾件事第一個是我們我國到現在為止沒有落實兒童權利公約要求的全面兒少統計的這個部分一直都沒有整合好所以實際上台灣政府在兒少的需求上是盲人開車的狀況"},{"start":12293.033,"end":12318.543,"text":"第二個部分是實際上台灣的兒少預算長期編例只佔積率2%不到OECD國家1%所以如果我們三年內能夠跟土耳其一樣調到4%會不會預算排解問題會減輕很多第二個是預算失重我們也發現預算編列常常無視需要不顧此思比我舉一個最簡單例子剛才也提到托育的部分根據少子女化對策2.0政府自己定的送托率跟KPI的比較115年118年每年將產生33億到66億的"},{"start":12322.805,"end":12337.83,"text":"的閒置資金這比幽靈預算超過200億可是這證明什麼在不夠的額燒預算裡面政府還把閒錢放在等待床位這件事情上對照另一個場域額燒安置費政府常年編不到實際照顧的三分之一的預算"},{"start":12338.47,"end":12367.283,"text":"那剝削民間的民間機構那即使監察院糾正兩次二中全力公約結論意見書都說都還沒有改變所以正因為沒有按照沒有名列預算也自己搞不清楚錢去了哪裡一邊又說沒錢一邊又讓200億閒置一邊又剝削名利所以這其實不是排擠的問題是你到底有沒有按照統計來用錢那回歸初衷法案的初衷我覺得蠻好的但是我們必須要釐清到底是為了什麼誰來做要釐清誰可以領以及怎麼罰"},{"start":12368.203,"end":12395.72,"text":"不然到時候這是4500億可能又會變成另一個花了錢什麼問題都沒有解決的問題所以回到前面就定位A就是到底是不是可以把錢放在孩子成長過程中彈性提取是真正支持育兒或者定位B把錢用在結婚跟育兒這件事情上讓年輕人敢生敢結婚敢生以上謝謝謝謝鍾明雄知事長現在請聶建忠教授聶建忠教授"},{"start":12402.163,"end":12422.096,"text":"各位先進大家好我覺得我聽了很多我學了很多當然有學到好也有學到壞那麼我覺得有些人想太多我覺得這個議題對我來講我覺得還蠻簡單那麼我為什麼這樣講呢不是我過於自信那我可以用歷史看未來那麼我覺得很多東西當然有人談到"},{"start":12422.916,"end":12448.161,"text":"有些這個東西太過專一啊這個應該要排富啊等等的我覺得這些東西先不要想太多雖然它是一個單一政策其實我們還有很多其他的配套的你不走停在原地道德中立不可行好的東西要做你在中間就是壞就像CSA我們講企業社會責任一樣所以我們要想什麼我們要抓重點不是這樣嗎一碼歸一碼第一個我剛打電話過泰晤非常緊張我小孩"},{"start":12449.102,"end":12454.468,"text":"12點要接我說來不及了請跟警衛講我太不知道怎麼聯絡我說我不知道會這麼晚終於到我了我要快一點第二個我要講的就是當然我要強調是我有三個小孩對都在幼稚園小學其實我覺得很清楚你要讓他們想婚"},{"start":12465.442,"end":12480.972,"text":"怨生人養一定要有誘因我就算再有錢我要有誘因有錢人一樣要有誘因否則的話你會跟我中間時間一定不夠會講哈林丘在紐約10年的例子哈林埃瑞爾是生最多的犯罪率最高的第五大道生的絕對不多絕對不好所以先講排富條款這些人你認真想一想"},{"start":12483.894,"end":12511.527,"text":"有些東西要排布有些東西不要排布不要抓到一個東西就一直往那邊走我告訴你你根本想不清楚才會走到那條路第二個這個帳戶是什麼是為了小孩的未來的安全考量未來帳戶不是這樣嗎想想看2005年是不是有勞退薪資請問要勞退薪做了什麼事我在裡面也這樣子講過多少次了那時候非常清楚想到我們有生命方式60歲退休你把未來想當然你有你的薪水你相對提撥這一次有點像講不好天一到18歲你要給他未來帳戶"},{"start":12513.088,"end":12539.919,"text":"這個拉卡不對嗎請問你65歲退休年動嗎這麼簡單 講報裡面最後請專家操盤我們任何操盤基金來賣手學校就算學校也有個私教對比也有我們像財經系的人去去挑這個到底好或不好最早法官不要讓他損失太重結果常常都賺很多這裡也有理財專家董事長不是嗎在做基金理財的現在可以靠AI對不對我正好在教這個AI和Fintech我說請他來教我們的Robot這個理財"},{"start":12541.539,"end":12568.055,"text":"但是我講多了 不好意思我還是要講一下 答案就是那麼簡單嘛又因想婚孕怨生能養我們在社會也開過很多次會去比較各個城市哪一個生育的時候補助多那都排富了啦生下來的時候要怎麼樣也都排富了什麼還在這邊談排富我就搞不懂來 第二個下去我講話有點大聲 不好意思來 我也有準備一些東西所以我必須講一下來 我們先往下面是我自己按著"},{"start":12571.997,"end":12592.568,"text":"第一個我們看不比不知道比的會嚇到我們先看一下下面美國英國法國他們的這個三條線是怎麼走的我們再看我們的台灣非常的可怕你不嚇到才怪這邊有藍色綠色和黑色我這裡如果比數字的話你一定要嚇到的嘛當然是這樣子我們先看一下嬰兒草第二次嬰兒草在1960年代我們在那時候出生的1965年農年請問生了多少人將近43萬人"},{"start":12594.429,"end":12612.811,"text":"请问一下笔下那个时代时代几个人养几个人你知道吗我告诉你那时候很恐怖一个养一个一个人养一个什么东西大家知道吗就是一个蓝色的线养一个绿色的蓝色线是什么是人工作的15岁到64岁养一个什么小孩太多了所以家庭呢一个就好了两个"},{"start":12613.692,"end":12633.531,"text":"對不對 有沒有記不記得 這麼多年紀的 一個兩個嫁 一個不嫌少好 有記得吧 年紀輕的可能不知道好了 我們在時間時空一轉 到2019年2013年發生了什麼事非常嚴重 我們的一比一變了 好 現在變成了在2010年左右呢 是我們的扶老比 大家知道扶老比吧 分母就是一個可工作人"},{"start":12635.132,"end":12652.422,"text":"這個分子是這個老年人就65歲以上我們現在講這2010年 等一下講2025不就更可怕了嗎大家都已經知道我們已經超高齡化了嗎好 這時候是七個人養一個老人 哇 好輕鬆啊七個養一個 再來呢 扶養比喔老人家小孩加起來 你自己去看這2010年畫線就知道"},{"start":12654.583,"end":12676.988,"text":"這句算 我們的時間非常有限我把數字全部給你們很簡單 三個養一個到了2025年2030年左右請問幾個養幾個 你們知道嗎現在開始了發生了很可怕的數字我要看一下3比1三個人養一個還是可以啦這叫扶老比對不對請問扶養比呢我們講說扶養比兩個養一個我跟你講再過15年到了這個2025年我跟你講一個養一個我跟你講養不起我先講一下我們現在要為小孩子未來安全他現在還小"},{"start":12683.769,"end":12703.506,"text":"你不給他這個給他自己的一桶金讓他啟動他的未來你要誰來養他或者講不好聽的他來養誰這是重點好了那我現在很快的再走下去時間絕對是不夠當然缺口如此大數字會說話但是數字還會說亮話我想我們講想什麼要講重點一碼歸一碼"},{"start":12704.987,"end":12727.581,"text":"時間就到了誘因講抱歉想問育嬰人想這個一樣能夠提供誘因的講抱歉我們時間關係我們看一下我們的副總長就不多說了就講這個未來我強調這個未來這是一個政策型的儲蓄你知道為什麼lock up當然第一順便可以減少少子官危機這是一個incentive是一個誘因我們最重要是要長期投資給他人生的啟動資金不是這樣嗎我跟你講有為的青年就會想到未來"},{"start":12730.583,"end":12751.299,"text":"好那再來我們先講一下當然這個內來懶人包我就不多說了因為這都是這個各部會什麼用的內容這我就不多說了你這個法條就不是我的重點當然裡面的金額的大小當然我會贊成就這樣子嘛到時候看頂多一些數據的調整大概就經費的來源嘛大概有些爭議嘛當然我想經費大小其實中華民國今年已經突破32兆的這個所謂的GDP了啦"},{"start":12753.621,"end":12761.248,"text":"那我們的外匯存底呢我們的每年的trade balance我剛去查了一家4800多億啊就是我們出口的是6000多億那進口是1000多億這加起來不得了那當然這個剛剛有人講到現在2020年我們的那個是剛有那個醫生講到是5923億比照現在是2.33%我跟你講我又算了一下不是我們用現在是1.823%而已在比照國際6%其實差很遠"},{"start":12774.659,"end":12797.882,"text":"所以各位有時候啊顧東想西有時候我覺得就是想太多那難免當然你想一定有你的道理嘛我剛講經費來源其實我們還不足以比其他國際你不要拿別的國家比就是我覺得還不夠所以才會產生你們很多人不想生啊或者這個未來的問題啊難免有反對的意見這些反對意見等等等等等等就會什麼稅留等等一堆的重點有個排付條款我覺得要不要排付我覺得要看情形第一個"},{"start":12798.442,"end":12814.167,"text":"第一個很多都有牌幅條剛講兒童發展不是有牌幅嗎還有很多都有牌幅你知道嗎從小你請問一下先生的你稍微20%以上你能領到2萬嗎你能夠補助我都沒有領過啊這非常清楚第二個呢對婦人的孩子不公這個是給小孩的"},{"start":12814.887,"end":12829.968,"text":"那個是給他的一桶金誰說每個夫人都一定給他小孩的不一定我跟你講我昨天就跟一個學生去看我們一個AI的meeting在那個貴山這個小孩他就是這樣他父親有錢不一定給他他靠自己打工那你對他公平嗎所以利益深而欲離的幼齡當然"},{"start":12830.869,"end":12858.62,"text":"想婚怨生能養 這裏面就叫人養 講抱歉你讓他自己能養 會讓小孩子自己養他自己最重要的是劣幣出租良幣 看我用紅色馬卡起來就是因為我在紐約生活十幾年Harlan Aaron 去了解一下東哈林區125街以上裏面的族裔多少人 他們講告訴你那邊的黑人就是他們每天就push push push孩子生一大堆 因為他們都有福利照顧包括當時的那個所謂的房子賣不出去就是給了這些福利請問一個社會 你需要這樣子嗎"},{"start":12859.54,"end":12876.302,"text":"第五大道孩子絕對生的比你小好區的百分區絕對比較少你一直講那一面有沒有想到黑暗那一面不好意思啊不是說夫人就一定不好夫人又很棒的我必須講一下我很多的面臨貧窮黑暗變化販毒的地方你去看一下是不是因為政策使然所以"},{"start":12876.582,"end":12900.669,"text":"全國兒少 齊平易入 我非常贊成最後 未來丈夫 優點缺點 當然都有人講 還不積極啊通膨啊 政策風險 今天我打了一堆的問號這些東西 到底你在想什麼 其實你都有配套然後最後 當然我會比較贊成紅色這個BPM這個就是一個 累積你將業 這個創業 然後累積資本這不就是你到時候 不管你30多萬 50多萬 所有的相對補助到50多萬就是給小孩在18歲啟動他第一桶金嘛 這麼簡單這是一個長治的長期儲蓄"},{"start":12904.33,"end":12933.533,"text":"而且有政府背書說不好聽一點我們的退休金不也是這樣嗎結束了我要講完了就是我們問題發生了不管少子化什麼我們真正問題這是我們這個在計量學裡面最簡單的一個就是發現問題對不對問題Problem出現了我們要Diagor發現了然後我們要尋求方案嘛最後呢用Lemony怎麼解決解決很簡單我們就是往前行天行見君子以至強不息我跟你講天下世有難以為之難者亦不為者亦難以你不做什麼都沒有啦"},{"start":12934.053,"end":12955.598,"text":"行怒不禁者退正能量強行道德中立很簡單不可行有所為有所不為為之這個當為當仁不讓Yes我覺得go for it謝謝大家謝謝聶建宗教授學者專家及委員均已發言完畢請行政機關做整體回應請衛生福利部回應"},{"start":12963.501,"end":12977.141,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位學者專家大家好非常感謝我們各界對於這一個問題的關心那我想今天各界都提出對於我們整個這一個儲蓄帳戶"},{"start":12978.082,"end":13004.274,"text":"還有對於整個如何更加精進我想這個是大家全民共同非常非常關心的那我想我們衛福部這邊會來虛心我們會來接受我們各方的一個意見這裡面包括就是說有關於這一個對於兒少最佳利益還有這個家庭負擔性還有這一個整個是不是會可能造成這一個更大的這一個貧富差距"},{"start":13005.154,"end":13024.052,"text":"我想更重要的事就是它的這個相關的效益我想我們都會納入相關的一個評估那麼再次代表本部感謝這一個召委今天召集這個公聽會也謝謝我們各位各界的一個指教 謝謝謝謝李建德次長接下來請國發會回應"},{"start":13034.032,"end":13058.81,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位先進謝謝大家今天的一個寶貴意見那今天我們會收集大家的意見也會在相關包括政委或者是院裡面相關會議在討論的時候會把這些意見做一個反應那到時候會做一個充分的討論我們會把相信會讓這個案子討論會有更精準的一個往下走的方向謝謝謝謝張副林處長"},{"start":13062.145,"end":13090.075,"text":"委員王玉敏陳金輝所提書面資料列入公報記錄做以下結論依據立法院職權刑事法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表學者專家參閱"},{"start":13092.136,"end":13097.861,"text":"今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束 散會"},{"start":13126.544,"end":13127.022,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}