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MANGA"},{"start":958.763,"end":970.31,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1091.578,"end":1115.299,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1181.196,"end":1181.298,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1528.575,"end":1539.137,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1638.969,"end":1644.7,"text":"請著密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員13人以足法定人數"},{"start":1647.748,"end":1657.456,"text":"好現在開會進行這個報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事記錄第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第6次選舉委員會議事錄時間115年4月1日星期三9時至11時21分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員鍾嘉斌等14人練習委員林大化等13人"},{"start":1667.023,"end":1692.439,"text":"立席人員經濟部政務次長何進昌國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢等主席召集委員邱志偉報事項一宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二邀請經濟部部長就能源轉型政策下我國產業發展佈局及中東重組與全球能源供應面重組對能源安全之影響應對策略進行報告並被質詢三邀請國家發展委員會主任委員及經濟部部長就AI浪潮下台灣傳統產業制"},{"start":1694.9,"end":1714.333,"text":"傳統製造產業競爭力強化及輔助政策規劃與執行情形進行報告並被質詢報告事項合併詢答經濟部政務次長何敬昌及國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢報告後委員鍾嘉斌等17人提出質詢經由經濟部政務次長何敬昌等即席答覆決定以登記發言委員除不在場者外取以均與發言完畢詢答結束"},{"start":1715.774,"end":1729.012,"text":"二 委員蔡易宇 陳廷飛 徐欣盈及張嬌俊所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三 書面質詢和未及答案部分請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會委員另也要求期限者從即鎖定 散會宣布完畢"},{"start":1731.957,"end":1752.902,"text":"好 那再來繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份衛生公司董事長及台灣中原股份衛生公司董事長行政院經貿談判辦公室首長財政部首長經濟部行政院主計總署首長就台美關稅協定ART中關於擴大採購及購買原油天然氣發電設備等"},{"start":1754.282,"end":1778.747,"text":"項目之評估規劃及設定之及涉及之問題與工作並就台灣中有股份衛生公司之增資案進行報告並被質詢先轉筆好先要介紹一下在場委員有這個邱志偉然後的話呢再來是經濟部股民心部長能源署代理署長吳志偉"},{"start":1781.618,"end":1805.283,"text":"国际贸易署署长刘威廉台湾中油公司董事长方振仁台湾电力公司董事长曾文森财政部官务署副署长苏淑珍国库署主任秘书刘信隆行政院主席总处基金预算处副处长黄秀龙"},{"start":1806.914,"end":1835.309,"text":"行政院經貿談判辦公室資深談判代表兼執行秘書徐崇清好那我先稍微聲明一下這個因為行政院經貿談判辦公室他楊真理總代表的話他早上臨時請病假但是我是還沒收到假單那這個我個人覺得是蠻嚴重的"},{"start":1838.324,"end":1861.497,"text":"不要欺負新科立委但我不能霸凌你說說不讓你請病假那所以我是覺得這個只此一次下不為例所以昨天晚上的時候我還沒有收到那個假單那我今天剛剛這個才跑過來跟我講議事處的有收到嗎目前還沒收到所以這個"},{"start":1868.482,"end":1878.692,"text":"先跟各位委員說明一下這樣的狀況那也讓在場的所有的媒體記者大家要清楚接下來我們現在確認議事物請問各位同仁上次會議議事物有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤 議事物確定"},{"start":1891.892,"end":1911.126,"text":"好我們本日議程排定台美關稅協定ART中關於擴大採購及購買原油天然氣發電設備等項目之評估規劃及涉及問題與工作並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1912.947,"end":1926.68,"text":"那麼我們大概請這個經濟部廣明星部長報告時間大概10分鐘接下來請朝政部官務署蘇時珍副署長報告5分鐘行政院經貿談判辦公室徐從欽執行秘書報告5分鐘"},{"start":1939.085,"end":1962.963,"text":"召委還有各位委員大家早安那今天承蒙貴委員會邀請支救台美關稅協定就是ART那關於擴大採購跟購買原油天然氣還有發電設備等項目的評估還有規劃還有涉及的問題與工作呢以及重要公司增資案提出報告那如下敬請各位委員不吝賜教"},{"start":1965.239,"end":1986.338,"text":"那麼首先是有關於台美關稅協定ART擴大採購的部分那根據台美關稅協定的第6.2條以及附件3那麼自從2025年到2029年在符合我國相關法令例如採購法等規定的情況下呢"},{"start":1987.159,"end":1994.668,"text":"那麼我們促進向美國採購444億美元的原油跟天然氣還有252億美元的電力設備、電網設備、材料、發電機、儲存設施還有船用設備以及制鋼設備還有其他的設備等等"},{"start":2006.801,"end":2016.406,"text":"因此本部基於能源安全跟永續韌性將督促中油公司、台電公司等依據實際上的需求、審慎的規劃從美國採購石油、天然氣、電力設備等等並依據我國採購法的採購程序來辦理"},{"start":2026.204,"end":2040.263,"text":"說明如下首先在原油的部分綜合公司從這個2017年開始採購美國原油2024年因為綜合公司在第三嘉青拖流的這個拖流廠的停產"},{"start":2040.984,"end":2066.811,"text":"为了稳定供应我国相关的油品扩大采购美油那目前已是专业公司原油最大的进口来源美国原油的价格具有竞争性而且品质还不错符合我国炼厂炼制设计还有它的效益未来仍将考量国内的这个成品油需要还有炼厂炼制效益还有操作状况的规划依法来办理采购"},{"start":2067.671,"end":2092.341,"text":"那第二個有關於液化天然氣也就是LNG的部分美國目前是全世界最大LNG的這個出口國那供應量非常充足而且出口很穩定估計到2030年LNG的出口量將達到每年也是美國啦它的出口量達到1.79億噸另外美國LNG的計價的機制呢那相對於中東還有澳洲等"},{"start":2093.613,"end":2115.285,"text":"價格也比較穩定因此增加向美國採購天然氣符合專業公司LNG以穩定供應為主分算氣源以及計價指標風險為輔的採購策略未來將以上採購的策略還有國際油氣公司或者是美國LNG生產商等等積極的洽簽長期的供應契約"},{"start":2118.652,"end":2131.491,"text":"另外在252億的設備採購的部分主要是台南公司為了達到增氣減煤的能源轉型以及2050年的淨零碳排的目標"},{"start":2132.642,"end":2161.249,"text":"未來所規劃多項的燃氣機組的更新計畫的相關採購包括環評已經通過的台中二期還有協和計畫以及環評審查階段的星達二期的計畫等等不循環機組那過去十年台電公司相關的採購案極有多項是由美國廠商得標的因此希望美國廠商未來能夠積極的參與台電公司的公開的採購案"},{"start":2163.547,"end":2173.718,"text":"第二有關於中央公司的增資案的部分中央公司從109也就是2010年初國內爆發這個COVID-19疫情還有111年國際間發生的這個烏鴉戰爭到現在"},{"start":2178.803,"end":2200.525,"text":"那配合的政府穩定物價的政策持續的動漲或緩漲國內的汽柴油天然氣還有液化的石油氣的售價那從109到115年3月底為止主要的油氣的產品沒有足額調整而吸收的價格呢差不多是新台幣的6129億元"},{"start":2203.207,"end":2221.748,"text":"導致中央公司到了115年3月底為止累計虧損已經達到了792億元負債比例也達到了92%財務結構事實上是算起來很不好然而中央公司為了達成能源轉型的政策近年來持續推動天然氣穩定"},{"start":2222.689,"end":2237.134,"text":"供應的建設方案包括第三一挖天然氣的接收站還有台中廠的山崎還有洲際接收站永安到通宵還有到大潭的第二條的海管等等的十項的建設"},{"start":2238.674,"end":2257.119,"text":"那總經費要達到了4845億元如果以現在的公司的財務狀況來講的話事實上比較難支撐這樣的未來的投資所以在115年初的時候呢中央公司向本部提交的從116年到119年四年間呢要增資3500億的計畫"},{"start":2262.675,"end":2285.447,"text":"本部省卓中央公司目前自有基金因為連年的虧損確定已經難以支應未來天然氣穩定供應建設的相關計畫資金上的需求加以115年2月底受到中東的戰事赫姆斯海峽封鎖的一些情形導致全世界的原油天然氣供應"},{"start":2286.267,"end":2310.532,"text":"的拒檢還有價格的暴增那中央公司為了緊急採購調度又需要龐大的這個營運的資金那本部呢已經依三項包括專案融資還有撥補這個特別預算的撥補還有辦理增資三個方向向行政院呈報積極的爭取對中央公司增資還有其他財務上的一些協助"},{"start":2312.062,"end":2332.891,"text":"那最後是為了強化我國能源韌性本部將依據台美的貿易協定督促中央公司持續以穩定供應多元採購還有分散風險的採購策略遵循我國採購法程序的規劃對於美國採購原油還有天然氣台南公司也將積極的推動"},{"start":2335.872,"end":2358.77,"text":"燃气机组的更新计划透过已经高效率的复旋环发电的设备节省燃料还有操作的成本至于中央公司因为配合政府稳定物价政策导致的财务结构的恶化的问题本部将适时的协助中央公司取得稳定国内油气供应的资金上所需要的需求"},{"start":2359.37,"end":2374.356,"text":"并审慎评估对中央公司财务上的支持也恳请大院来支持以上报告好那接下来的话请这个财政部官务署苏淑珍副署长报告"},{"start":2383.534,"end":2387.457,"text":"今天貴委員會邀請相關部會就台美關稅協定 當中關於擴大採購及購買原油天然氣發電設備等項目之評估規劃以及涉及的相關問題跟工作"},{"start":2400.908,"end":2405.432,"text":"進行報告那麼ART的第6條以及附件3有關擴大採購及購買相關內容沒有涉及到財政部的業務那麼今天僅就這個ART裡頭有關貿易便捷化以及防度違規轉運財政部的一個執行情形做簡要的一個說明那麼在貿易便捷化方面財政部關務署持續的對輸入的貨物採取貿易無止化"},{"start":2428.172,"end":2432.797,"text":"數位化通關程序以及到港前的申報未來也將就這個有關這個價值低於2500美元也就是相當新台幣大約8萬元的美國快遞貨物那可以適用這個簡報的申報程序"},{"start":2444.552,"end":2452.475,"text":"目前我們正在進行相關系統的規劃以及法規的研修作業預定會在今年的5月實施針對防渡違規轉運的辦理情形海關是採取事前嚴防、事中嚴查、事後嚴處的三嚴措施全面打擊違規轉運息產地來擦亮我們MIT的招牌"},{"start":2466.539,"end":2471.303,"text":"那簡單的說明相關的具體做法以及成效在事前嚴防方面我們各個海關在去年14年的4月10號成立了強化違規轉運查核小組鎖定高風險的廠商以及貨品來執行強查的行動我們各官配合經濟部的公告也從去年的5月7號到本年的3月29日查核有關輸美貨品"},{"start":2493.582,"end":2498.885,"text":"的原產地聲明書超過了91萬件那目前業者的配合情形都相當的良好在市中研查方面我們海關篩選高風險的一個書美貨物並且予以提示由我們的官員嚴格來查核這個貨物的一個產地另外我們的官員也在各個保稅倉間實地來查核存倉的貨品它的相關產地的標示那所有的查核結果我們都納入風險分析"},{"start":2523.317,"end":2529.04,"text":"在事後嚴查方面各官從去年4月1號開始到今年3月29號已經查核有關蘇美的貨物三萬兩千多筆那麼我們查獲在課稅區跟保稅區有違規轉運的案件並且移送給經濟部國際貿易署來裁罰有336筆那麼其中182筆"},{"start":2547.931,"end":2567.1,"text":"经济部贸易署已经采取罚还一共新台币4344万元另外我们在自由贸易港区也查获了违规的案件有两笔那这两笔是由我们官务署台北关依照自由贸易港区设置管理条例的一个规定来采取罚还"},{"start":2568.5,"end":2573.762,"text":"一筆財儲30萬元兩筆總共是60萬元那麼有關台美對等貿易協定它含括的議題財政部會持續來配合我們相關產業主管機關的需求提供相關的資料以利益這個主管機關來評估對於產業的影響並且適時採行相關的因應措施來促進國內經濟的一個穩健發展那麼以上簡要報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2597.383,"end":2599.457,"text":"好呃谢谢叔父叔长"},{"start":2600.817,"end":2629.516,"text":"我会有个小小的建议请那个关务署可能参考一下因为所有的厂商在查这些乱七八糟的关税货因为最近的变动很不稳定我觉得有很多厂商的反应就是你整个那个查询的界面啊收集之后会方便一点因为我们的HS Core太多所以那个去把它用AI或者是用自通讯的技术去把它优化一下很难找好不好待会去建议参考"},{"start":2630.899,"end":2637.301,"text":"好再請行政院經貿談判辦公室的這個徐從清執密報告"},{"start":2646.894,"end":2662.604,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請本辦公室緊究台美關稅協定中關於擴大採購及購買原油天然氣發電設備等項目之評估規劃及涉及之問題與工作二要說明 敬請各位委員部令指教"},{"start":2663.484,"end":2689.193,"text":"美方為解決兆元貿易逆差實現再工業化於去年4月2日援引《國際緊急經濟權利法》對各國課徵對等關稅台灣隨即與美國展開密集協商由行政院政府院長召集成立台美經貿工作小組成員包括行政院經貿談判辦公室經濟部、農業部、衛福部、財政部、勞動部、交通部、公共工程委員會、外交部等單位"},{"start":2690.753,"end":2719.646,"text":"經10個月協商後台美雙方於本年1月15日與美國商務部簽署台美投資合作備忘錄MOU2月12日與美國貿易代表署簽署台美對等貿易協定ART我方取得對等關稅NISA國中最優惠待遇以及半導體及衍生品關稅最優惠待遇及多項232關稅優惠待遇美國聯邦最高法院2月20日裁定對等關稅失效後美方立即啟動其他法律途徑重建關稅政策"},{"start":2720.167,"end":2722.171,"text":"以援引第122條款對全球課徵150天10%加MFN暫時性關稅並於3月12日及13日分別就結構性產能過剩"},{"start":2731.212,"end":2759.217,"text":"禁止進口強迫勞動產品對我國在內的主要貿易夥伴啟動301調查且將因調查結果加徵關稅台美經貿工作小組已召開多次會議因應301調查我政府核心目標不變能將以維護國家及產業最大利益為原則在台美ART與投資MOU爭取到的優惠待遇基礎上鞏固台灣產業相對優勢及最佳待遇持續積極與美方聯繫溝通省慎因應世界變局"},{"start":2759.834,"end":2761.44,"text":"爭取國家及產業最大利益"},{"start":2762.847,"end":2774.45,"text":"在採購承諾方面我國承諾自2025年至2029年對美採購444億美元之液化天然氣及原油252億美元之電力設備電網設備材料發電機俗稱設施船用設備制鋼設備及其他設備152億美元之民用航空器及發動機簽署我國對美採購承諾西遊相關部會依我過去對美採購情形及盤點未來潛在採購需求"},{"start":2792.114,"end":2820.539,"text":"在符合我国内炼制效益分散供应风险降低碳排强化电网韧性与运量效益等原则下提出采购承诺以助我国增进能源安全韧性与永续发展美方也了解我国执行对内采购时必须依据我国政府采购法及相关国内法规办理以确保程序公开透明价格合理符合产业实际需求美方为缩减贸易逆差实现在工业化向各国均要求扩大采购"},{"start":2821.079,"end":2843.414,"text":"其他与美国有庞大贸易逆差的国家也都提出扩大对美国采购能源民航机等承诺包括欧盟韩国日本等自美增加采购不仅符合我产业实际需求强化国家能源与供应认认性实现我国长期能源转型政策也有助解决美国关切的贸易逆差促进台美双边贸易平衡发展"},{"start":2844.605,"end":2844.625,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2875.765,"end":2902.684,"text":"那接下来现在呢进行这一个寻打那委员执行前原律做以下的宣告一个每位委员发言时间本会委员五分钟必要时得延长一分钟非本会委员四分钟第二点上午十点零分截止发言登记首先呢我们请登记第一位的邱毅英委员发言"},{"start":2909.306,"end":2917.102,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下這個經濟部部長還有中油董事長請部長跟中油方董事長"},{"start":2923.44,"end":2940.02,"text":"今天我們來討論中油增資的議題整個中東的戰勢升溫其實全球都面臨到能源的油價或者是天然氣的價格持續的攀高"},{"start":2941.521,"end":2961.898,"text":"中油從3月23號開始宣布氣柴油每公升漲1.8塊對不對柴油漲1.4塊那其實相對反映國際的油價其實這個國際的油價應該要上漲大概是15塊嘛是不是這樣所以中油自己吸收了成本大概是13.2塊的成本"},{"start":2963.659,"end":2986.871,"text":"所以我按照这个中油自己对外公布从2月28号开始的三个礼拜大概吸收了将近65亿元的这些成本如果到4月的时候应该已经吸收达到90.6亿元那刚刚几个报告包括未来的天然气的对外采购等等"},{"start":2987.831,"end":3004.891,"text":"中油自己評估如果這個戰事繼續延續的話中油將會整個吸收成本要逼近2000億所以經濟部在這個時候提出了增資案部長我想進一步請教"},{"start":3006.292,"end":3027.302,"text":"當然中油這個時候提出的增資案我必須替中油抱屈一下其實在過去幾年包括從二屋戰爭開始我們過去一直在幫台電提出增資在幫台電說話可是好像大家都一直忽略到中油其實中油不是現在才提出希望增資"},{"start":3028.402,"end":3048.95,"text":"他們從2022年就提出希望有200億的增資23年提出希望增資1000億24年25年也一直提出這個增資的要求但是經濟部一直到現在中油的負債比已經高達92.5%了已經快要破產了"},{"start":3050.619,"end":3065.831,"text":"經濟部終於同意讓中油增資3500億部長或者是中國董事長你們可以回答一下3500億能撐多久如果中油這次增資不成功的話中油還可以撐多久"},{"start":3066.758,"end":3094.355,"text":"来董事长中油公司可以称多少其实看这个中东事件它所影响的期间到达什么样一个范畴了我想说明就是说增资三千五百亿的考虑当然中东这个事件是临时发生的在月初我们提出来的三千五百亿主要的原因是两项第一个就是去填补在去年年底我们的累计亏损"},{"start":3095.305,"end":3114.116,"text":"第二個就是114年的累積虧損另外一個就是為了就是天然氣對能源轉型來講天然氣相關計畫的韌性的提升所需要為了未來的韌性提升所需要的這些資金做一個統整提出3500億的需求"},{"start":3117.823,"end":3142.714,"text":"這個這個董事長你還是沒有完全回答我的問題那這三千五百億夠不夠你花你現在講的這一些包括任性的需求能源轉型的需求你能講一下嗎這三千五百億要花多久那現在不知道立法院會不會通過喔藍白的委員不曉得會不會支持這個增資案喔所以增資案如果沒過立法院沒通過的話中油還能夠撐多久"},{"start":3144.068,"end":3166.685,"text":"因為行政院現在協助中油的部分大概有三個面向一個是專案融資專案融資也謝謝行政院秘書長在幫我們做這個跟央行還有其他的銀行來做協商第二個就是撥補的部分用預算來撥補是用特別預算還是怎麼樣的預算來撥補填補就是吸收的這個部分"},{"start":3167.285,"end":3190.239,"text":"那增資的這個部分主要還是用來未來投資之用剛剛董事長有特別提到了將來有很多的設備需要投資下去部長你講到的這些錢還是都要立法院通過不管是不是用特別預算對今年度的總預算都沒過了你的特別預算要編在哪裡要編在哪一年度特別預算要怎麼處理如果"},{"start":3191.584,"end":3220.082,"text":"立法院藍白主導的立法院持續不通過預算持續不給錢中油能夠撐多久這個你們都一直不敢正面回答這個問題喔第二個我要談的就是說中油現在講的都是進口我們一直在談進口能源嘛包括要跟美國採買包括這個ART要去跟美國採買你的強化韌性還是都是在進口中油其實過去自己是有投資的"},{"start":3221.976,"end":3244.392,"text":"包括你們投資的其他的礦田印尼、厄瓜多甚至查德你們其實都是有投資的那我不知道從什麼時候開始過去的投資事業合約到期之後一個一個都收起來了你們現在唯一還有持續在投資的也是現在在幫你們賺錢的是查德的油田對不對董事長是不是這樣"},{"start":3245.292,"end":3261.486,"text":"是的一個公司一個完整的能源公司的營運其實你是不是應該透過上游有一些開採下游有一些進口其實你的開採跟進口不能說它比重是相同但是你還是要有一些比例上的分配"},{"start":3262.467,"end":3274.662,"text":"現在看起來中油大概仰賴進口的比重已經超過90%你們自己的碳採你們自己的開採投資海外礦區的投資是不是已經完全停滯"},{"start":3276.089,"end":3295.905,"text":"那現在中東戰火這樣子過去投資查德的錢投資查德的這個計畫目前看起來算是短暫有幫中油有獲取到的一些利益喔但是未來呢在整個能源公司在中油整個能源配置"},{"start":3297.554,"end":3306.596,"text":"的計畫裡頭你們有沒有什麼新的想法或者是更精進更積極的作為這個是董事長要回答嗎謝謝邱委員的指導確實我們在國外的礦區裡面這幾年查的礦區是給我們帶來收益"},{"start":3317.506,"end":3336.144,"text":"那麼對於這個國外礦區的部門發展目前是訂出來在119年我們所謂的國外的自由遊園要達到10%那現在大概不到5%了後續我們會加倍努力那麼我們也訂出一些優先順序"},{"start":3337.465,"end":3363.113,"text":"所謂優先順序就是以這個權益併購為主要因為它比較快速就可以取得油源那麼同時對於這個政經環境比較優良的地區也當成首選譬如說美國北美地區或是澳洲這個當成是一個首選那麼第二個順位就是像東南亞這些國家這些也當成第二個選擇總之我們在119年要達到這個10%的目標"},{"start":3367.647,"end":3383.867,"text":"119年能夠達得到嗎我現在看起來中油第一個你已經快要破產快要沒錢了你連自己國內的營運都已經快要成問題了更何況你是要去併購或者是要去海外做投資你的錢在哪裡如果增資不成功"},{"start":3385.054,"end":3395.822,"text":"如果特別預算的撥補不成功我很擔心中油會撐不下去這個也是經濟部應該這是迫在眉睫要去處理的問題部長這個可能"},{"start":3398.587,"end":3414.122,"text":"可能還是要請你們跟立法院的委員們多多拜託啦那這個也要讓大家了解到整個戰火整個這個戰爭影響到了國際的能源的議題包括中油你不能一直叫中油這個吸收成本中油連續虧損七年啊"},{"start":3416.564,"end":3441.497,"text":"那這個虧損政府其實早就應該要做一些政策性的調整來協助中油包括我剛剛講的你們的海外探勘海外的礦區的配置這一些投資其實應該都要納在你們未來的年度計畫裡頭這個可能要重新去思考整個中油未來的營運好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3448.001,"end":3471.804,"text":"好 我們接下來請洪昭偉質詢好 謝謝主席我們有請這個經濟部部長跟這個經貿談判代表昭偉早安好 部長早"},{"start":3474.768,"end":3502.554,"text":"我想剛剛談了很多但是我想從另外一個就把它抽絲剝繭我覺得這個ART跟MOU裡頭藏著就是一個納共美國的內幕也就是說第一個我到現在我們立法院也沒有收到任何ART MOU的正式文本所以經貿行政院經貿臺灣代表也沒有送給我們任何正式officially的"},{"start":3503.308,"end":3514.259,"text":"我總結就是美國在這個NRTK是打出全壘打我們台灣就犧牲打犧牲的很徹底為什麼這麼說我把這一個時間整理一下為了讓各位看一下"},{"start":3524.181,"end":3548.466,"text":"在過去之前我們的產業大佬童子賢提出核二核三研議芬蘭模式等等核能是乾淨能源郭志輝也講了但總統府他說我並沒有授意童子賢談這樣的事情2024年的9月4號AIT就提出三個核心要務其中韌性明確的指到能源合作是一個關鍵議題"},{"start":3550.476,"end":3573.816,"text":"當AIT談完之後我們的立場就開始有點鬆動我們的卓榮泰院長就說了立法院質詢時核能三原則核安核廢跟社會共識這三個議題國發會也補了一刀說AI產業會讓我們的電力需求30%所以不排斥作為核能源的選項到了2025年的3月10號"},{"start":3576.516,"end":3586.758,"text":"AIT再發表一個談話美國準備好供應核能技術跟LNG可以作為台灣可靠的能源這能源包括了核能"},{"start":3587.898,"end":3608.585,"text":"好了2025年3月11號行政院就講不排除在核能有安全共識底下開始中油3月20號2025年3月20號就簽署了阿拉斯加液化天然氣的投資意向書投資意向書沒有說你一定要投資我知道你等一下方董事長會這樣回我明白在2025年"},{"start":3610.322,"end":3630.733,"text":"的話一直下去了這邊就開始巴拉巴泰度開始做一些的調整整個包含行政院中油一直到了2026年2月13號我們簽的ART MOU其中擴大採購的天然氣跟原油部分是444億電力設施是252億美元對不對"},{"start":3634.715,"end":3650.241,"text":"經貿代表沒錯吧在2026年3月20號AIT就準備好各種能源技術面向滿足台灣的需要說我美國準備好了可以供應你台灣的需要"},{"start":3651.441,"end":3677.015,"text":"3月21號2026年3月21號就在AIT的隔天總統府賴總統就是宣佈可能我們可以評估核二核三的重啟講了一個很好的話我們要因應未來的AI的算力需求以上這些都是新聞大事記就很奇怪美國AIT講的話之後我們的配合的發言跟這個言論"},{"start":3679.4,"end":3706.156,"text":"你就會讓大家覺得說奇怪了我們一切好像不是你們所講的我的虧損我的中東戰爭這個在中東戰爭發生之前就在鋪陳好當然我知道你們也不敢回答我也沒有讓你回答我只是把這個羅列出來讓全國的民眾去看的到這整個世界我就覺得奇怪我們回到中油這邊我們請中油的方董事長"},{"start":3712.11,"end":3731.65,"text":"就是剛剛講的這些的採購我其中有一塊阿拉斯加的這個採購他的一個預算如果按照中油過去持股這個所謂的卡達NFE大概5%我如果抓你們6.5%的話大概你們可能需要28.61到45.5億"},{"start":3735.097,"end":3761.328,"text":"也就是說民間對你阿拉斯加的評估總投資金額440億到700億那如果我們用這個第一種方案就是你們台美日韓四國去軍攤大概平均就是110億所以如果你把它乘以30點多我們匯率就算30大概就3000多億所以當時你提出來的增資3500億跟這有沒有關係"},{"start":3766.334,"end":3792.021,"text":"三千五百億增資跟阿拉斯加這個案沒有關係一點關係都沒有沒有關係好那你說沒有關係我覺得還是有關係啊你現在說我沒有啊我只核准你一千六百多億啊我如果把它分四期第一期的話大概就八百七十五億啊那我四期乘下來還是三千兩百多億如果說你這個都不是阿拉斯加油田的增資那你阿拉斯加油田的那些的拆採如果將來要開採那你的錢哪裡來"},{"start":3796.158,"end":3805.313,"text":"首先對阿拉斯加投資案目前中國公司還沒有收到美方提供的一些詳細資料明白但是你要準備好資金啊"},{"start":3806.314,"end":3830.098,"text":"所以現在來講沒辦法去做確認要不要投資這幾點說明我是幫你算啦如果你現在的1687億的增資經濟部核准的話大概阿拉斯加第一期大概是858億你的累計quotient按照你報告是792加起來大概是1650億也蠻接近的那你日後再做增資嘛"},{"start":3831.621,"end":3857.907,"text":"是不是應該是這樣子不是方案一就是方案二我想不出你還有什麼其他東西應該就是說第一個投資的總額還未確定第二個投資的比例也未確定第三個它整個開發的自有資金跟貸款的比例也都不確定好沒關係這是我合理的懷疑我知道你也不敢承認也不敢說特別說不考慮這樣子的狀況"},{"start":3859.167,"end":3881.799,"text":"因為我們增資的目的就如同剛剛我們部長講增資的目的絕對不是打虧增資的目的是為了要什麼改善然後創造更多的營運收入但是我真的想不出你的改善為什麼要花那麼多錢我想不出來因為我也開過公司我也做過產業所以我幫你想的方案是這樣你不承認也沒關係再來我們請台電再給我一點時間"},{"start":3886.635,"end":3909.254,"text":"這裡頭電力設備的採購是252億美金大概7560億那我也幫台電算了一本帳假設我把核二核三的重啟的費用抓一下對不對包含你西路的檢查設備的汰換然後一做核三大概600億假設核二也差不多好了我們就算他是1200億到1300億"},{"start":3911.576,"end":3939.155,"text":"然後我也幫你把天然發電器的這些機組採購算進來大概包含你的協和興達應該是大塔那邊對不對 關於那邊大概我抓一下2024億加起來大概也才差不多3600多億所以我們252億的美金電力設備採購如果我這幾個加起來你也會飽滿核電的重啟跟燃料棒包含我們燃氣機組我們假設都這樣沒採購好了"},{"start":3941.121,"end":3968.016,"text":"那這樣子還剩4300多億我就想問台電當時在ART簽這一個250億美金電力採購你有被人說要採購什麼項目嗎我跟委員報告那個上面寫了好多項目不是只有台電250億不是只有你你看那個上面內容寫了很多還有什麼設備等等的一大堆東西不是因為那台電的項目會是什麼"},{"start":3968.766,"end":3984,"text":"那個台電的項目是這樣我們提供的資訊就是接下來因為我們要蒸汽減煤嘛所以我會增加天然氣的基礎採購我預計要做的天然氣基礎的採購那這大概是占多少"},{"start":3984.46,"end":4000.009,"text":"包含大齡的機組通宵的機組等等這些都要用依據採購法來辦公開採購那已經採購的像剛才我講的大齡跟通宵那通宵機組就不是美國得標通宵機組是日本我現在問你說採買項目跟這個你到時候再列一個報告給我因為我想要問的是經貿談判代表"},{"start":4007.253,"end":4030.591,"text":"就當時這252億啊 到底要買什麼你不要又給我變成是1.25兆的國防軍購啊我又不曉得要買什麼東西啊這是我擔心的啊 我不反對你們買啊但買的要有價值嘛 對不對那這個錢 我就算出來就是4300億台幣不知道怎麼賭那我最後 再不太用時間了後面就是從這邊開始 好不好 謝謝這樣可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":4041.907,"end":4066.914,"text":"好我们接下来请张嘉俊委员咨询谢谢张伟我想请经济部官部长主席"},{"start":4072.583,"end":4076.486,"text":"趙委員早安部長好那這兩週全台灣都非常關心塑膠袋短缺的問題那本席看到數據非常的驚人近一個月以西漲了97%那HTPE LDPE這些看來用來製造這個民生用品的原物料也都漲了將近50% 46%等等那基層攤商反映"},{"start":4101.807,"end":4107.733,"text":"現在不只是袋子難買喔供貨商甚至不寫標價改為用實價來販售這已經不是合理的市場波動了部長經濟部目前掌握到的供應情況跟價格的波動您可不可以先說明一下呢"},{"start":4119.674,"end":4140.654,"text":"包委員那個實際上當然就是上油的部分因為直接反映那個原料來源會長比較多但是他會遞延事實上現在到了塑膠袋看起來我們昨天有跟這個這個就是廠商有一些座談商圈的廠商有一些座談大概差不多的確是有漲到30%漲到30%至45%左右"},{"start":4144.917,"end":4156.101,"text":"這個當然我們現在提出的就是說因為現在我們塑膠袋使用的這個乙烯的量大概是2.2萬噸那我們從今這個月開始會增加5500就變成27.5萬噸那這個增加了這個5000噸它可以製造的大概是12.5億個塑膠袋"},{"start":4166.766,"end":4180.254,"text":"所以你覺得說應該透過這個方式可以平息這個塑膠袋之亂因為呢我想請教部長部長應該也非常了解每天消耗塑膠袋封膜最大的族群是誰您知道嗎"},{"start":4181.375,"end":4184.198,"text":"我們知道的現在稍微比較吃緊的當然就是商圈跟夜市是 就不是一般的民眾是全台灣傳統市場裡面的這些攤商小吃然後夜市裡面的這些飲料店 小吃店 便當店等等"},{"start":4200.273,"end":4207.536,"text":"那對他們來說這是跟他們生計相關的剛性需求所以本席要希望說部長要為他們趕快穩定這個供應啊否則他們如果沒有這些包材的話他們連做生意都沒辦法做了"},{"start":4217.341,"end":4240.048,"text":"是 所以昨天我們開這個座談會全台灣的商圈代表有出席那哪一部分有問題的部分我們馬上去處理解決那短期間透過一些調度的方式就是稍微長一點我們剛才提到的那個料源增加以後我們盡快增加生產出來以後然後分配給他們而且這一批我們是採用平價的"},{"start":4241.208,"end":4266.391,"text":"那這個部分我覺得可能也要適度的宣導因為目前本席收到的消息是經濟部你們高調宣布的是有關於協調小北百貨鎮宇五金行等等的這些塑膠袋供貨但這兩家都是末端零售大多服務的是散客對每天大量消耗成本壓力最大的這些夜市攤商來說他們"},{"start":4268.212,"end":4271.374,"text":"不會在那裡買啊所以我希望的是你要能夠全台呼籲因為你有呼籲的話才不會有一些不肖業者從中在壓迫一些不曉得資訊的攤商 您知道嗎 我在講什麼嗎所以現在法務部跟我們有稽查小組聯合那也去"},{"start":4288.787,"end":4304.773,"text":"各地的這些包括攤商您剛才提到的去了解實際的狀況那我們希望就是說不只是呼籲啦甚至於有就是說法律上最好是不要有囤積跟哄抬是 這就是我下一個要講的一定要加強查緝確認說這個缺貨"},{"start":4307.984,"end":4325.412,"text":"不是有人在囤貨然後是能夠讓基層的這些攤商跟這些小等於是這些小吃業者能夠用合理的價格買到否則他們的成本不斷的拉高最後也是要投射到這個消費者端來啊"},{"start":4326.032,"end":4346.282,"text":"所以這個也是我們最主要的目的所以我們從這個料園的源頭然後一直到中間的生產製造商然後到通路端我們大概有分成幾個部分來做一些調度跟協調的一些工作這方面我也很相信部長有專業也一定能夠協調成功但是我也想要提醒部長的是"},{"start":4347.562,"end":4371.792,"text":"這個塑料供應緊張我們要當然要減塑盡量少使用但是有一些狀況是必須的包括我們藥局的藥袋包括食品的封膜但還有我們農業的這個包膜那這個幾乎都是跟食安跟醫療有關沒有替代品那有沒有經濟部有沒有針對這些民生必須的特殊包材進行盤點呢"},{"start":4372.452,"end":4387.637,"text":"有我們有一個跨部會的協調機制就是其他部會您剛才提到衛福部還有其他部會他需要的部分我們會優先供應給他畢竟這個衛福需要的相關器材那個是比較重要的那個跟生命安全比較重要我們會優先供應"},{"start":4388.317,"end":4398.224,"text":"那這部分就拜託部長繼續高度關注那我想要繼續請教部長您應該很清楚說中油目前的財務狀況為了配合政策穩定物價吸收的金額聽說已經快要將近百億了"},{"start":4406.848,"end":4410.411,"text":"那個油價的部分目前累計吸收虧損多少大概90億左右90.6億那這個負債比我目前看起來負債比已經高達92%了那隨著這個中東的衝突如果繼續持續的話進口的油氣成本"},{"start":4427.388,"end":4450.389,"text":"繼續墊高那這樣子的話經濟部有沒有一個設一個虧損的上限否則這樣繼續無限制的吸收下去的話中油負擔得起嗎對所以我們當然就是吸收的部分一定是在中油它可以承受的範圍那所以這個範圍是對另外我們多少您內心有一個底是所以我們另外"},{"start":4451.658,"end":4469.112,"text":"也從另外一方面資金的挹注來協助中油包括有三個面向一個就是用專案融資的部分來協助它第二個就是說用撥補的方式預算撥補的方式第三個就是增資的方式三個同時並行那現在已經在運作當中啟動當中"},{"start":4470.413,"end":4491.315,"text":"因為本席的確是非常擔心中油的財務那我們當然都希望中油能夠以穩定民生物價為首要考量但是面對這個成本不斷的飆漲我們也不能只是靠他們不斷的吸收我們還是希望說除了這個開源之外我們也要節流"},{"start":4491.795,"end":4496.138,"text":"就是說能不能有效減少石油跟能源的消耗然後減輕中油的負擔就像上週本席質詢的減少公務車的使用是不是有一些政策可以讓我們政府帶頭能夠減少實際的能源消耗我不曉得部長有沒有注意到包括其他國家馬來西亞政府從4月15號起"},{"start":4518.151,"end":4545.97,"text":"他就讓符合條件的聯邦公務員每週最少三天居家辦公目的就是減少燃料的使用那如果公務員大規模的響應他們希望可以省下730億的這個燃油開支那包括泰國的總理他也決議說居家辦公甚至是隨處辦公那這個是一個具體的節流措施不曉得說部長有沒有考慮過這一點"},{"start":4548.972,"end":4563.067,"text":"報告委員那個泰國還有馬來西亞他們狀況比我們嚴峻那如果到需要這樣我們會跟行政院來反映如果真的需要這樣現在暫時間好像還沒有那麼樣的嚴重"},{"start":4564.368,"end":4571.814,"text":"我當然希望說這個戰爭趕快有一個這個能源危機短期之內可以有一個明確的盡頭但是這可能是一場長期抗戰本席建議我們經濟部甚至行政院應該還是要未雨綢繆參考一下國際經驗然後是不是可以開始做一些盤點甚至說一些政策的規劃否則到時候逼到眼睛來了"},{"start":4593.212,"end":4598.961,"text":"逼到眼前了我們才來做這些規劃可能也已經來不及好不好謝謝部長 謝謝建議接下來我們請這個鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":4617.813,"end":4638.443,"text":"還有主席 財產委員 縣進 列席的政務司長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請經濟部工部長那麼還有我們的能源署的吳代理署長以及台電的曾董事長部長早 署長早 董事長早今天的題目包括了要去購買"},{"start":4639.909,"end":4658.501,"text":"能源原油還有發電設備來我的題目就這樣來天然氣吃緊居然在昨天的媒體報導說要一度考慮恢復藍莓基礎我們知道目前在台塑的麥寮它本身它的運轉許可是還有餘裕但是它跟台電的"},{"start":4659.742,"end":4668.277,"text":"購電約已經中止了那麼有考慮因為中東的戰士營養天然氣供應會去要用它來作為我們緊急補我們發電的不足嗎有沒有考慮過為什麼報紙這樣寫"},{"start":4674.393,"end":4688.809,"text":"跟委員報告就是中東的戰事一發生就只是媒體的報導還是真的有這樣的一個提供請問我說明一下中東的戰事一發生事實上我們就把所有手上可以作為緊急應用的所有的機組都做了盤子所以藍媒也是選項之一"},{"start":4689.85,"end":4705.142,"text":"藍莓是選項之一 而且現在全世界很多國家都在做這個選擇我了解 很多國家都重啟了這個 好但是有人提到也是一樣 最近的媒體報導說有人提到說儲能系統也可以上場救援 為什麼因為用電的尖峰改用儲能設備來供電我們知道目前的儲能是它被綠電 綠能在它的這個離風時間的發電量可以存起來給尖峰用可是事實上目前並沒有"},{"start":4713.789,"end":4739.651,"text":"那有人說我們只要少用 尖峰適用少用燃氣機組這樣我們會降低對天然氣的消耗而且維持安全儲量台電支持嗎那個報告委員 儲能是用來挪移離尖峰的它不會產生電能我們現在需要燃料是要產生電能這是完全兩個不同的問題我知道 但是如果說有人說目前儲能裡面就是有電"},{"start":4740.912,"end":4759.272,"text":"有離峰時候存的電在我們尖峰的時候呢我們是不是降低對LNG的發電量改用儲能的電它是個容易沒錯但是總發電量記在我們的度數當中它是離峰時候產生的綠電用儲能存起來我們在尖峰的時候加進去對不對那目前如果這樣的做法有沒有在考慮"},{"start":4760.882,"end":4788.429,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們現在儲能設施就已經在用在做那個離間封調度而且我們現在已經超過兩個GIGA來我們看一下實情啦過去我們繼續架構考量台電的電力交易平台根據儲能業者說因為成本價格嘛我們採定了設定採購的需求因為目前的儲能的裝置容量大於我們調度所需要常態的調度所以費率是零啊"},{"start":4789.566,"end":4810.888,"text":"所以設備上我就退場了我幹嘛我去除了這些尖峰時候的發電量離峰時候的發電量那我等著要給你們用你們尖峰時候就不來調度但是目前如果短期的緊急支援它可以增加我們天然氣存量可以增加韌性我先請教一下如果用除能供電會增加多少購電的成本那除能供電又能增加多少供電量"},{"start":4812.996,"end":4841.165,"text":"儲能的狀況是這樣就像委員螢幕上面顯示的它是一個競標但是它標的是容量費率它投零元它依然會有能量費率等等的費用可以收所以實務上目前這些儲能業者說他們要退場因為他們除了能基本上台電基於價格的定價不會去跟他買好 那表示說如果LNG價格繼續高漲是不是它的成本值得跟儲能業者來調度"},{"start":4843.51,"end":4862.328,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果我們在尖峰的時候遇到有需要的時候我們還是一定都會調度好 那麼就把過去實質上我們調度用儲能的電來調度在尖峰的時候的用電需求的部分列出來好不好我們看一下時光會如何業者的說法是不是有他的道理往下看其實啊 部長"},{"start":4863.149,"end":4875.246,"text":"其實颱風天我從小到大我們颱風天來之前大樓的水塔就會提前儲水每個人家的家裡會裝水桶也備水這是減少分散風險降低缺水危機是不是這樣子"},{"start":4876.118,"end":4892.403,"text":"那我們家人會這樣國人要怎麼樣面對能源危機是不是我們要擴建跟增建LNA的儲槽就像我們在大樓的水塔多做幾座提高整體的安全存量您同意嗎都同意那另外呢這個儲能設備就像每個人家裡的什麼的水桶一樣在"},{"start":4893.363,"end":4907.174,"text":"分散的這個供電系統當中我用儲能的把電先存起來以便不時之需大概就是這個概念那請問目前國家經濟部有訂定LNG儲槽擴建目標未來的期程有沒有參考其他國家LNG的安全準量"},{"start":4907.915,"end":4921.325,"text":"有 我們現在大概是法定是11天那原則大概都可以到12天日本是多少明年希望可以達到14天14天 日本是多少天日本沒有定韓國是韓國是9天9天 所以我們還優於鄰近國家但是我們的風險也高於鄰近國家"},{"start":4925.928,"end":4944.734,"text":"我們希望明年可以達到14天很好 那你的進程有沒有辦法趕得上我們的擴建增建的期程要趕得上這14天是 就是說這個LNG的除潮我們還是希望盡快來擴建好 那往下看喔能源韌性除了儲能之外還有多元供應你們天然氣已經分散採購了嘛剛剛你也答詢嘛說中東之外趕快跟美國集團買對不對"},{"start":4946.394,"end":4974.939,"text":"好但是電力的供應那時候我也問過董事長我說是要繼續推動再生能源像地熱的發電是要增加我們的多元選項是地熱是我們的選項但是也有人說新能新型核電也是選項囉有沒有這樣的考慮那個是那是未來我們未來好可是未來就開始講了SMR這個小型的模組化供電的反應爐這個居然啊在前幾天呢有一個叫做國家原子科技研究院有沒有聽過這個單位"},{"start":4977.265,"end":4999.051,"text":"他是在國科會以下的財政法人核安會的財政法人結果盤點有三種SMR基礎可以讓高階核費大減奇怪了我從來不曉得這個單位有在做這個研究你認為他們的研究目前的成果可以讓我們達到總統所承諾的核費有解 核安確保 社會共識SMR目前的研究成果可以達到這三個標準要求嗎"},{"start":5000.237,"end":5025.862,"text":"我們現在還在觀察因為全世界的希望你們不是觀察你們要去深入掌握好不好好那我問一下其實很多人在談SMR其實它的商業價值就是以豬代壽SMR這個小型模組化核反應爐它的技術就來自於什麼來自像美國這樣的核動力潛艦你有聽過核動力潛艦只要加一次燃料棒它的退役之前除役之前它都不用再添加你知道這個技術吧"},{"start":5026.601,"end":5055.584,"text":"可是潛艦一艘可以用三四十年它不用添加燃料棒它一次到位那它的體積小容易移動對不對其實這就是SMR的原始模型SMR它提供的是奏電服務你用它的電力目前的商業構想是怎麼樣你不用處理它機組以後的廚藝的問題合費的問題通通帶回去處理使用這個就像你們辦公室的影印機以前我買影印機買了之後放在辦公室裡它買墨水匣壞掉了要找人來維修"},{"start":5057.113,"end":5069.708,"text":"故障了或者報廢了我要找人來處理這個SMR的概念就像你不是買影印機你是要求什麼租賃服務他給你算章數計價的這是不是SMR目前所了解的商業模型"},{"start":5071.414,"end":5090.581,"text":"現在為止我們看到的是各國還是各做各國的這個您剛才講這個我是說SMR的商業模式的理解是不是這樣子那是未來但是現在還沒有看到目前沒有嘛目前可能80還沒有半撇嘛來我們來用傳統核電跟SMR來比重啟核電跟機載用電傳統核電用牛棚的投手"},{"start":5091.041,"end":5115.312,"text":"遇到了天然氣吃緊,我們上來投個兩球,中繼投手救援投手,是不是這樣子?但是你不會拿它來作為機載的電力但是現在業界在期待SMR市場像指定打擊啊它每一場九個人它都固定上場打擊,還是個強棒你這樣了解嗎?因為兩者不同,一個是電力吃緊短缺的時候緊急備援另外一個是成本高但是供應穩定的電力你認為對於SMR有期待的是哪些產業?"},{"start":5117.421,"end":5141.189,"text":"為什麼這個產業會期待SMR?SMR因為它有一點像傳統核電它規模比較小那是可以比較分散式重點在於說你不用去處理核廢我們來跟你分析一下主席站起來了不好意思跟趙偉再拜託一下傳統產業因為他們毛利率低他們希望能夠得到便宜的電力維持競爭力核電如果加上核貨物端不便宜"},{"start":5142.045,"end":5154.292,"text":"但是高科技產業他毛利率高他要求是穩定供應穩定供電但是呢他可以接受高電價請問你們知道目前可預期的未來SMR如果商業化他的供電價格跑出來了嗎"},{"start":5156.184,"end":5182.054,"text":"現在很高啦很高根本沒有啦很高是多少錢就是比他成本高非常多高非常多所以還沒有辦法商業化不是技術上做不到是商業化目前沒有辦法被產業納入考量所以請經濟部跟台電協同國科會的國研院還是原能會我也搞不清楚然後去評估一下未來你們對人家在倡議SMR的時候你要問他價格是多少"},{"start":5182.774,"end":5207.822,"text":"服務內容有沒有包括核後端簽約有沒有簽約對象好不好簡單講啊不要再隨著這些媒體的報導起舞SMR根本就是八字還沒有半撇空中羅格這三個項目沒有出來之前談都免談所以結論第一請經濟部要責成台電納入儲能設備的供應電力把它納入去做個評估第二擴建我們天然儲槽提高供電韌性可以嗎好"},{"start":5209.322,"end":5223.692,"text":"第二個你們去折騰這個協同國科會或者是跟這個國語園院去請他委託他如果那麼喜歡在媒體上講SMR請他把這三個ABC提供給經濟部不然就請他閉嘴可以嗎"},{"start":5226.044,"end":5245.419,"text":"他是我們平行單位啦不然他每天放這個假消息也沒有價格也沒有服務內容也沒有簽約對象再說要仔細評估這樣給產業錯誤的憧憬對經濟部你們產業發展是不利的你同意嗎不好意思那個那個這個能源署署長"},{"start":5247.262,"end":5266.81,"text":"你會期待SMR有這個APC還沒出來之前你對它有什麼期待我們基本上還是會持續去了解這個資訊啦就是說未來到底要怎麼使用或者是說好所以你們要掌握資訊喔部長你們要掌握這個資訊不要放任這樣的錯誤的訊息四處留戰好不好好謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":5280.085,"end":5283.467,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請經濟部長陳委員早部長你知道現在台灣有兩個亂嗎一個是塑膠袋之亂一個是土方之亂塑膠袋之亂我們上個禮拜在質詢公平會的時候公平會說他會配合你們他要怎麼配合你們"},{"start":5310.058,"end":5335.319,"text":"公民會主要是看有沒有聯合行為啊是啊他說要有合意啊那什麼叫合意奇怪了現在有人那麼笨嗎明明知道說你公民會要處罰我就是以合意那我自己還跳入那個漩渦他有那麼笨嗎他居然說他是配合你們好我就問他們那請問壟斷的部分呢"},{"start":5338.957,"end":5364.302,"text":"還有我只要晚兩三天出貨供跟需產生了不同的平衡那是不是價格就跳上去了這個會有壟斷嗎 也不會啊因為那是我出貨的問題我說公平問你怎麼會活在自己的世界裡啊那你把責任都推給經濟部然後我問 部長你們有去查嗎"},{"start":5365.914,"end":5383.755,"text":"我们有去了解对了解的结果呢就是商圈的昨天我有跟那个商圈的全台湾的商圈代表有做了座谈会是啊那大概来了30个商圈那比较有明显的这个他说他比较买不到是有一个商圈就是嘉义地区啊"},{"start":5384.255,"end":5408.309,"text":"那他主要我們會後了解是說因為他習慣的通路商可能比較缺啦那我們現在是透過小北跟剩餘五金嘛那我們現在就幫他處理就是說他如果要用原來的通路商我們就來協助他的通路商如果他可以用新的通路商我們也來協助他好那經過你們這樣座談完之後你覺得會解決了嗎"},{"start":5410.31,"end":5433.916,"text":"對 我們是盡快的可以紓緩源頭也有 我們增加那個料源料源的話從這個原來生產塑膠的乙烯2.2萬噸我們現在增加到2.75萬噸那希望這次增加大概百分之二十幾希望這個製造商你不用擔心你會有料源所以你認為你這樣子一輪溝通協調之後我們的塑膠袋之亂會解決嗎"},{"start":5438.779,"end":5466.44,"text":"至少商圈的这些代表或理事长们除了商圈还有小摊贩呢还有菜市场呢市场的部分我会下一轮就是明后天我会再做一个轮所以这些一层一层的这些每天都急需要用到塑胶袋的你们动作好像有点慢每天都在努力每天都在努力速度要加快否则"},{"start":5467.721,"end":5486.301,"text":"這些問題一個塑膠袋雖然過去我們都不會把它當一回事可是這一次中東的戰爭之後它變成一個大事耶超級大事耶大家曾幾何時會認為說我居然會買不到塑膠袋"},{"start":5487.816,"end":5506.862,"text":"所以大部分的商圈他們還是說可以啦所以部長我才會說啊但是價格是有稍微漲啦是啊那價格為什麼會漲就是供需的問題嘛所以他只要晚個一兩天出貨基本上價格就跳上去了啊"},{"start":5507.799,"end":5523.729,"text":"何必像公平會說還要合議有這麼笨嗎所以部長你要跟公平會說既然要配合要給人民安心給消費者安心積極作為要到位"},{"start":5524.935,"end":5541.577,"text":"現在是法務部聯合我們經濟部包括公平會我們有一個聯合稽查的小組那現在也全台灣也少過一輪也少過一輪了你認為這個塑膠袋之外多久你有信心可以讓它比較穩定"},{"start":5543.673,"end":5568.581,"text":"我們只能盡快跟盡力 盡快嘛 盡快到底是多久嘛 所謂盡快半個月還是一個月 你所謂的盡快應該不用嘛 所以盡一個禮拜有可能就解決了 對不對我們努力 希望嘛 拜託你這一拖 人民對政府的欣欣指數又下降了"},{"start":5569.661,"end":5587.468,"text":"所以越快處理越好另外一個部分就是我們的土方之亂部長你知道嗎現在台電很多工程都停擺因為了解原因之後就是土方沒的地方去"},{"start":5589.153,"end":5608.292,"text":"所以整個都停擺啊這怎麼辦還有自來水公司我不知道現在到底你們都解決了嗎來那個台電董事長解決了嗎你們公共工程最近大家都在追案子追案子之後問起來就是因為土方沒辦法堆置所以都停擺"},{"start":5609.042,"end":5631.164,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說您這個表列出來我們大概全國各個縣市現在都在陸續在解決那當然我們土方的處理跟運送費用增加的非常的多這是我們現在面對到的難題那有部分的地方就是土方去劃的地點不管他是去掩埋堆置等等都需要"},{"start":5632.369,"end":5658.156,"text":"不同的縣市有不同的條件對 沒有啊 就是不夠量嘛你要去堆置的沒有地方去嘛好 那這個誰要去解決縣市政府嗎還是我們中央台電要去協調我們中央相關的國土署或是國福相關單位這該怎麼辦因為不是你們問題連自來水其實也發生問題了"},{"start":5659.844,"end":5671.693,"text":"這怎麼辦跟委員報告就是說我知道的狀況是行政院跟主辦的國土機關都有在處理這個問題很多地方也都陸續找到區劃問題現在是問題越來越嚴重啊"},{"start":5675.816,"end":5701.902,"text":"沒有解決 沒有趨緩現在是越來越嚴重那多久 多久來 董事長你認為這個要多久每個縣市都發生這個問題那個委員 我說明一下其實有很多縣市都陸續在解決當中那我這樣講就是好 那你 我不問其他縣市我們台南什麼時候要解決台南所有的工程 台電工程幾乎"},{"start":5702.862,"end":5721.414,"text":"對 因為去年的因為當然是颱風的關係其實我們地下化的工程量最大所以我們也確實在台南真的是遇到最大的就是我們希望能夠有一定程度的解決好 那怎麼辦嘛如果戰志或什麼其他中線誰要做平台去解決啦"},{"start":5723.115,"end":5748.913,"text":"誰在這個時候應該跳出來去解決這個問題因為你們會有排擠現在台南除了有我們的營造建設還有我們的公共工程還有我們的台電自來水你讓我光一面工程有多少在進行土方的堆置要有多少場"},{"start":5750.424,"end":5778.322,"text":"所以這該怎麼辦誰要出面去做這些協調因為裡面有一個平台那相關的單位也有一個平台好 那我拜託會後把這個平台跟你的進度跟我說一下看我們現在到底要怎麼處理這個土方之亂好不好另外一個很重要的拜託主席因為這是昨天發生的問題我讓大家先看一段影片來"},{"start":5795.065,"end":5809.902,"text":"請問一下今天停電的情況是怎麼樣?突然停電所以導致現在都沒有辦法工作?所有的員工都下班了嗎?老闆叫你們都直接下班,大概停電多久?"},{"start":5811.001,"end":5834.83,"text":"到現在兩個小時多了啊所以都沒有辦法工作老闆叫你們直接就直接下班了又不知道什麼時候恢復啊好的好的那我來反映看看謝謝你不好意思啊這裡什麼時候停電的12點通啊12點2分而已啊所以說這樣子的話你是不是就沒有辦法工作對啊因為沒電啊電車去沒錢啊通票還沒發"},{"start":5838.288,"end":5840.669,"text":"我讓你看這兩段影片這是在昨天麻豆工業區無預警停電長達兩個半小時"},{"start":5857.293,"end":5883.669,"text":"然後呢你也知道在工業區基本上只要一停電他所影響的這些生產還有他的機器可能影響的損失非常的慘重那董事長有沒有去了解為什麼會停電兩個多小時剛剛委員的簡報裡面有寫到確實是變電站出口的纜線劣化對好那這怎麼辦"},{"start":5884.528,"end":5898.86,"text":"我們會我們其實這幾年來都在加強做我們藍線劣化的一些查查那當然這個數量已經開始降低了就停電的數量降低那我們其實速度那個委員跟委員報告就是說我們有1500萬個用戶"},{"start":5901.107,"end":5925.456,"text":"好我想說這個事情不是我是說在工業沒有沒有不是董事長你誤解我的意思我想我們逐步都有在做一些調整跟修復或是說我們有在加強韌性可是我現在講的是我們有沒有針對所有的工業區去做盤整這個是發生在工業區所以我是要拜託董事長"},{"start":5926.656,"end":5931.73,"text":"我們希望的是你應該要把所有工業區的電纜韌性然後應該儘速做檢查"},{"start":5936.012,"end":5951.117,"text":"這個部分我們會加強來做這個倒是沒有問題的但是我們有很多如果你的用電是比較說是特高壓用電等等的我們基本上都有雙潰線那這一個部分我們再去了解工業區內部停多久那其實整個來看兩個小時我們是12點多停然後2點回復"},{"start":5957.739,"end":5976.925,"text":"所以這個部分停的時間非常長如果說讓你說有雙軌那應該不會停那麼久所以這個部分所以所以董事長這個部分我希望我們能夠針對麻豆工業區的整個電纜韌性趕快去做加強然後應該延伸檢視各個工業區它的電纜韌性因為工業區比較特別我發現一件好再拜託董事長好謝謝"},{"start":5986.24,"end":5987.585,"text":"好謝謝陳廷輝委員接下來我們請這個鄭振權委員質詢"},{"start":6002.036,"end":6023.027,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下經濟部我們公民信工部長還有我們中油的方志仁董事長經貿談判辦公室的徐崇清執行秘書謝謝政委員早安部長好謝謝主席今天安排跟能源有關係的部分那我想說特別來"},{"start":6025.248,"end":6051.397,"text":"針對中油的部分因為我們目前大概是油電大概都先動那我想對民生來講動當然是一件好事不過對整個政策來講的時候可能就不一定是這樣子那我們看到中油109年到113年的話政策性補貼油價整個金額高達5786億元非常非常的多那為什麼會這樣我相信有很多的部分都是因為"},{"start":6052.937,"end":6063.094,"text":"油價的一個補貼政策所導致我想請教一下部長114年政策性補貼政策性的那個補貼大概會有多少金額"},{"start":6071.76,"end":6088.353,"text":"2025年沒有都沒有就114年完全沒有補貼那我在想說所以說114年的整個政策性負擔是零那這件好事那我想說我們再來看一下中油的"},{"start":6090.954,"end":6095.096,"text":"營業外費用中國的營業外費用的時候100億是營業外費用的時候預算數是195.66億然後整個決算數是300"},{"start":6103.646,"end":6129.452,"text":"8億齁整個相差112.3億其實非常的高齁將近快要六成的一個差額啦齁那這樣子這麼多的一個業外的一個費用的時候齁那我們看到它整個業外的結構就是資產減損這邊是最主要的一個部分我想請教一下部長齁或者是董事長這個資產減損的部分齁主要是用在什麼地方為什麼會有這麼高的一個金額就是以114年來講齁"},{"start":6131.693,"end":6146.478,"text":"那麼這個油價它是從高點往低點落那我們在國外有一些礦區它有一些油氣權益到年底的時候要重新去評估它的資產所以相對來講就做了一個資產的減損"},{"start":6147.978,"end":6160.488,"text":"所以這個減損部分是因為在對岸的一個投資當中的這個整個結算之後的一個結果對不對不是就是地底下的油跟氣那個還沒有拿出來那個部分的資產他有減損大概減損100多億這樣子"},{"start":6163.73,"end":6179.372,"text":"有100多億是在這個部分嗎好理解那我想說接下來我想問一下有關於阿拉斯加的部分因為中油這邊要怎麼樣子讓它的體質更健全我想說很重要董事長剛剛有提到說我們大概119年希望說能夠"},{"start":6180.854,"end":6198.13,"text":"整個投資的部分能夠占到10%啦那目前都沒有嘛那我就特別關注到阿拉斯加這個部分因為阿拉斯加這個部分董事長剛剛是特別提到說我們阿拉斯加這邊的時候要不要投資投資多少錢都還沒有具體的一個東西出來對不對"},{"start":6201.374,"end":6210.888,"text":"可是我看到了我們就是基本上就中油對於阿拉斯加這個部分已經有一個預估未來會從這邊採購每年600萬噸那這個數字是怎麼來的"},{"start":6216.366,"end":6227.459,"text":"首先報告委員首先我說明一下剛剛那個邱委員所質詢有關10%的部分那個是指礦產的10%阿拉斯加投資案跟這個礦產沒有關係那阿拉斯加投資的時候它是"},{"start":6232.325,"end":6249.945,"text":"那個油管的部分投資嘛我們現在我想問的狀態為什麼會問到這個部分是因為中東這個事情讓我們看到我們的天然氣油源其實需要更多元化就像我們能源政策也必須要多元化是一樣的道理"},{"start":6251.286,"end":6269.514,"text":"部長之前有特別提到說我們目前對美國採購的天然氣大概是14%到15%那我們到2032年的時候希望能夠提高到27%這天然氣的部分油的部分的時候我們有沒有怎麼樣子去做一個多元化的一個配比重新配比的一個政策"},{"start":6272.969,"end":6294.343,"text":"目前我們跟美國採購的LNG是10%我們預估到因為中東那個情勢我想大家也了解它確實產生了一些影響所以對於LNG進口整體佈局中東公司必須要重新慎重思考"},{"start":6295.323,"end":6302.966,"text":"那麼當中對美國的採購LNG變成是我們主要的一個考慮對象我們預估到2029年我們的佔比我們希望能達到大概25%的一個從美國採購的LNG到25%"},{"start":6312.523,"end":6327.41,"text":"OK 那對於阿拉斯加這個案子的時候目前進度大概到哪裡然後台灣是確定會去投阿拉斯加的油管採購他們的油源這個政策是確定的 是不是"},{"start":6330.522,"end":6344.916,"text":"阿拉斯加這個案子就是從去年的3月20號的所謂MOU可以看出來主要是兩項一個是採購LNG一個是投資採購LNG的部分是列在ART裡面"},{"start":6348.346,"end":6369.674,"text":"目前進度是說美方安排的進度是希望在今年年底以前能夠把這個採購簽約雙方都能夠談定希望在年底前把它談定所以今年年底前的時候阿瑟莎這個案會確定然後台灣確實也有這個意願然後再談這些細節了對不對我講的是採購案"},{"start":6374.216,"end":6402.318,"text":"那麼現在談一些主要的條款OK 理解那我最後這邊我想特別針對CPTPP這部分因為之前經貿談判辦公室這那個顏惠心副總談判代表的時候這事情我們大家都非常的難過不過因為他特別提到了針對CPTPP這邊的時候政府對這部分的一個消極跟敷衍然後卓院長也確實也"},{"start":6404.159,"end":6417.248,"text":"不諱言的表示過去一年我們對這部分確實沒有特別的一個著力所以卓院長也特別在3月27號的時候表示接下來定定CPTPP的一個目標時程我想請問一下執密跟部長我們目前這個針對CPTPP的一個目標時程定下來了沒有"},{"start":6427.5,"end":6455.953,"text":"是 向委員報告我們都配合院理長官的要求那我們會做全面的盤點然後具體的目標時程定下來了沒有有沒有進一步的內容因為相關的工作還在進行當中請大概什麼時候可以給本席一個很具體的內容到本席辦公室來做一個說明好不好是OK 那另外一個部分因為我們看到了"},{"start":6456.653,"end":6472.663,"text":"就是台灣在整個ECA跟FTA的一個入口網站當中我們看到台灣的一個貿易夥伴確實是少的卻不太夠那麼我覺得目前有幾個不同的做法我們對於有一些mini deals的部分一些比較"},{"start":6473.123,"end":6489.484,"text":"零散式的一個協議可以來彌補這樣的一個不足因為要進入到一個國際組織相關的部分我知道台灣有它現階段的一些難處那我們要怎麼樣透過一些mini deals的部分的時候來解決這個問題包括我們之前跟台美21世貿"},{"start":6490.405,"end":6505.614,"text":"益創益大概都是屬於類似的一個狀態還有包括台日的一個數位貿易協議還有台加投資促進及保障協議都算是這樣的一個medius的部分我想請教一下目前台灣還有哪些"},{"start":6507.233,"end":6532.146,"text":"正在進行當中要鎖定哪些國家哪些的議題是我們現在正在積極處理的mini deals的部分嗎可以請執秘這邊特別做個說明向委員報告就是說這些相關的經貿協議行政經貿談判辦公室都是跟相關部會一起在推動那至於說目前在進行談判中的deal"},{"start":6533.067,"end":6552.587,"text":"因為我們國際情勢的關係那我們的對手國通常都不希望我們在簽署之前理解所以我在想說為什麼我特別提到這部分就是說我們要真正加入一些相關的經貿國際組織不容易所以我們希望針對這個部分能夠對於我們的產業有一些很具體的一個幫忙"},{"start":6554.068,"end":6577.21,"text":"那我們也像經濟部這邊的時候跟經貿談判公司這邊能夠盡量的跟人合作的時候能夠讓產業從這個部分來解決現在的問題因為目前整個我們東亞的相關的國家在這個部分他們都很積極都跑得很快那我不希望台灣在這邊原地踏步好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭正琴委員接下來我們有請謝依鳳委員質詢"},{"start":6587.54,"end":6607.837,"text":"主席好我想請經濟部鞏部長還有我們經辦談判辦公室的徐代表鞏部長跟徐代表我想請問一下就是我們在對美的這個關稅談判裡面"},{"start":6610.652,"end":6634.902,"text":"行政院公佈的是說我們享有的是最惠國待遇但是目前我們看到了專利美國他公佈的專利藥品的這個課稅裡面他對美輸進口的話需要課百分之百的關稅但是台灣並沒有在這個清單裡面為什麼"},{"start":6638.752,"end":6664.208,"text":"我知道雖然說我們蘇美的這個藥品喔占我們的總額就是說專利藥占我們總額可能是10點多%而且產值不高但是我想請教的是會不會這是沒有享有最惠國待遇是不是有其他項目也不會享有最惠國待遇"},{"start":6667.872,"end":6696.619,"text":"是 向委員報告首先在藥品的部分這個我國在跟美國已經簽署的這個投資MOU跟ART裡面是有在明選民藥跟它的原料是豁免對等關稅選民藥這個部分那所以上個禮拜政府院長在記者會也是有強調說這個是選民藥的部分對 我是說專利藥我是說因為過去你們對國人宣布的是說我們享有最惠國待遇"},{"start":6697.179,"end":6712.069,"text":"但是現在我們看到了4月2號美國再次宣布的這個專利要裡面我們沒有享有最惠國待遇但是未來會不會有其他項目我們也沒有享有最惠國待遇呢"},{"start":6713.274,"end":6735.648,"text":"像委員報告就是說在那個今天的書面報告也有提到就是說我們在這個投資MOU裡面是有享有這個在半導體方面是最惠國的這個待遇是確定的那其他的有一些產品我們也是有享有這個稅率的那個"},{"start":6737.089,"end":6765.087,"text":"比较低然后以及还有这个豁免的部分豁免的话在这个对等关税里面有豁免在MOU里面有提到那至于说委员有提到说其他的项目那这个就是要看这个美方会不会再就所以有可能是不是但是我们的是不是有可能是不是有可能MOU里面有提到说未来美方有其他项目的时候双方会再就这个部分会不会有可能还有其他项目"},{"start":6765.407,"end":6782.366,"text":"如果有其他項目的時候MOU有載明雙方要做磋商那未來如果進一步有其他項目的時候你怎麼磋商那你磋商的條件是就是按照沒有辦法按照原稅率喔現在是15%嘛對不對不疊加"},{"start":6785.68,"end":6811.641,"text":"因為就是說有新的項目的時候那按照MOU的規定雙方要再做磋商那我方一定是力爭能夠是相對優勢跟最佳的待遇那還有什麼其他的項目目前在你們清單裡面因為在其他項目還沒進入磋商的很多項喔他的規定是說 這樣子有很多項喔未來有新的項目的時候對 這樣子會有很多項喔所以那個是要看美方是不是有新的項目是不是未來會有很多項"},{"start":6813.428,"end":6835.498,"text":"我們會持續的密切注意美方是不是有新的項目要進行232的國安調查還有我想要請教一下就教於我們工部長現在我們提到了就是未來要提高美國的天然氣占我國天然氣的總體占比那是不是就是說未來長期來講"},{"start":6838.355,"end":6846.423,"text":"對於我們油價以及對於整體對煤採購的這個天然氣以及石油是不是會有結構性的轉變會不會"},{"start":6850.666,"end":6870.791,"text":"結構會有變化因為它就是會長期對剛剛提到的現在是大概我們從那邊購的是大概佔10%那為了能源韌性跟安全的問題所以我們會提高到2029年會提高到25%那主要理由就是說因為要分散一下風險原來是比較集中在卡拔"},{"start":6872.252,"end":6894.067,"text":"所以對美的採購會提高到25%對 然後美國說老實話它的這個價格報價也比較穩定以目前來講的話所以對中國公司也是有幫助對我們也是有幫助的那對於整體的價格波動呢價格波動會比較穩定就是價格比較不會波動但是整體的成本會不會提高"},{"start":6894.967,"end":6907.46,"text":"理論上應該是不會因為美國事實上生產氣的成本比中東要低所以未來如果對美採購天然氣是不會提高整體的成本"},{"start":6910.17,"end":6936.765,"text":"跟委員報告中央公司採購LNG的話那一定是會根據國際市場的一個狀況來去議定這些合約當然包括這些價格所以應該就是在市場可接受的一個價格水平市場可接受的價格水平那所以現在目前中央公司虧損多少目前累計虧損是接近800億"},{"start":6938.227,"end":6958.475,"text":"800億嘛793嘛對不對快要接近800億啊那未來你們預計還會虧損多少如果像這個那如果這一次的就是說中東的衝突沒有在4到6個禮拜解決更長的時候中油必須要虧損多少我們要拿多少人納稅錢去補這個洞"},{"start":6962.224,"end":6985.963,"text":"跟委員報告當然就是說能源高漲進口成本增加所以在銷售端的部分如果說能夠某種程度的反應的話那這樣的虧損就會減緩那現在就是在於這個政策上對於照顧民生這個區塊後續的發展會是怎麼樣子中油公司就持續去關注這些事情"},{"start":6987.506,"end":6995.494,"text":"所以你也不確定是你們內部沒有評估就是中東的衝突到底多久會結束嗎"},{"start":6997.404,"end":7020.391,"text":"拱部長還有答案是不是拱部長有研究對不對拱部長有研究 你有研究對不對你知道中東的衝突有可能什麼時候結束今天是好消息就是說和緩了嘛 兩個禮拜那兩個禮拜期間這個船是可以通過赫姆斯海峽那我們希望當然有比較好的結果啦那我的意思就是說因為"},{"start":7021.531,"end":7038.548,"text":"油價的波動會根據這個形勢變化波動非常大所以他這個消息一出來以後他的這個合約價就是這個預期價格馬上降到了這個100塊以下那這個變化就很大所以綜合公司的這個狀況財務狀況就會根據這個可能要比較精算沒有辦法說"},{"start":7043.012,"end":7061.276,"text":"那麼確定去估算說很未來很長遠的時間我們當然會有一些模擬但是那個只是一個模擬而已你沒有回答我問題你剛才好像你對那個中東衝突的這個有了解說有具體的了解說到底什麼時候會結束這個可能要問川普你給他打電話是不是好謝謝"},{"start":7076.131,"end":7094.109,"text":"謝謝謝謝我問一下那個美國的天然氣到岸價格是不是10到14塊錢目前來講如果是長約的話大約在這個點卡達應該是8到11嘛我去查的話低一點嘛對不對OK好有請這個梁學文委員"},{"start":7101.96,"end":7107.267,"text":"謝謝主席 陽前發言 邀請部長跟中榮邀請部長跟中榮 方董事長"},{"start":7113.376,"end":7132.888,"text":"因為中東戰爭石油的供應有大減所以會導致整個在這個全球性的一個控管機制似乎導向不是很順暢的一個情況之下所以因此這個"},{"start":7135.31,"end":7150.394,"text":"IMF也估計說全球性的經濟成長他會放反那高盛也說石油的危機亞洲處境是最危險最危險那也提出說全球是"},{"start":7151.154,"end":7170.229,"text":"市場呢那因為以往說是短暫性的一個干擾他可能會轉換為結構性的供應緊張所以部長跟忠友在這裡我們看到因為受美伊戰爭波及呢那卡達大概有17%的天然氣呢他出口遭到了這個癱瘓"},{"start":7174.992,"end":7187.182,"text":"那導致那亞洲的LNG現貨的價格那大概是落在每百萬英勒單位的是大概在20塊美金左右那遠高於美國的Hund Hub它的2.8美元的這個部分"},{"start":7191.906,"end":7207.919,"text":"那所以在4月份的時候 中油天然氣的價格當然我們一定要以民生為主所以我們要求民生的用戶不能調漲那工業用戶的部分大概是漲5%那這個電業用戶的部分大概是漲41點多 58%那排價的部分是以18塊7左右為基準來反映這個高漲的"},{"start":7220.304,"end":7245.649,"text":"這個氣源成本那如果以剛剛所說的這樣的一個數字我們看到是史上最大的一個漲幅所以部長你在4月6號的時候也對外經濟部對外說已有 已有某個主要能源生產國他承諾要來支援我國的天然氣的一個需求那請教部長哪一個國家"},{"start":7251.779,"end":7268.374,"text":"這個視訊就有達成這樣的共識就是什麼什麼我們跟他視訊的時候就有達成共識對哪一個國家視訊啊不對外說明不對外說明對那因為你又有說了一句話你說因為我們人緣很好所以人家願意協助我們"},{"start":7269.464,"end":7294.224,"text":"的确是这样是因为人缘很好应该讲就是说我们综合公司包括我们过去来讲跟这些国家他们的商业往来也好或产业关系也好事实上是算有互信关系那你所谓的有国家愿意那是一个国家还是几个国家有一个国家是一个国家表示怎么样呢"},{"start":7295.353,"end":7313.439,"text":"他是說如果我們有需要在這個天然氣如果真正有需要的時候他願意全力的支持我們供應我們好那請教我們要謝謝那你這個國家不能講那你供氣的條件跟採購的成本"},{"start":7316.082,"end":7340.551,"text":"條件呢他只是表達這樣的意願啦所以有沒有講到條件沒有沒有但是這個意願表達就是至少我們量的部分可以可以優先去取得因為量還是最重要優先去取得所以到目前為止因為價的話事實上市場上他有一個參考價格所以目前為止也就是條件購電的價格都還沒有談"},{"start":7343.893,"end":7372.014,"text":"因為大家對這個很期待啊不是它是天然氣啊對啊對啊是很期待啊也就是你這個採購的成本嘛供氣的條件啊你們談到了這個部分了沒有你找到了這個國家願意嘛你們視訊過了嘛那也就是說供氣的條件跟採購的成本有沒有具體談呢有沒有價格的部分就是反映從市場上的價格作為參考"},{"start":7374.332,"end":7375.456,"text":"本席請問有沒有跟這個國家具體談?有沒有?"},{"start":7380.083,"end":7400.482,"text":"沒有談到這個說多少價格所以你還沒有談嘛 跟這個國家還沒有談嘛還沒有談這個項目沒有還沒有談 這個要講清楚那因為原則上你的企業的這個採購價格你會依常約的公式去計算還是依照現貨市場"},{"start":7405.763,"end":7422.493,"text":"根據我剛才提到的如果是這一個國家來講的話還沒有談到那麼細的部分當然定價是有兩種委員講的沒有錯一個是現貨價格另外一個是長約用跟這個使用價格掛貨的部分那以你經濟部長中油董事長在你後面你會以哪個方式去談"},{"start":7423.854,"end":7450.839,"text":"因為這個牽扯到中油的成本中油的成本也是納稅人的錢啊所以你會哪個方向因為你對外說我們人緣很好所以有一個國家願意要提供給我們很好那到底我們的條件是什麼供給的條件供給的價格是什麼你說你再告訴我們還沒有談那我們自己本身你會以哪一個方向去談"},{"start":7452.753,"end":7464.658,"text":"這個因為現在還沒有我們還不到買不到的狀況如果我們在現貨市場上買不到的情況之下我們當然會跟他你不要扭到旁邊嘛我們針對嘛因為你幾天前你這麼說啦你會這麼說表示你心裡有一個底嘛那你會以長約的價格去談還是以現貨的價格嘛"},{"start":7476.68,"end":7494.134,"text":"請問沒有 因為我們本來就跟他有簽長約的部分對所以大概大家會猜到哪一個國家嘛所以到底你會繼續長約嗎長約的部分就會用長約的價格來談那額外增加的部分當然參考的價格是欠貨價格好"},{"start":7496.226,"end":7508.862,"text":"這我們就離去一個方向嘛長約的大概哪一個國家大家知道那不能講那但是呢已經有簽了長約長約當然是依照契約走那你認為如果額外的是以現貨來談"},{"start":7512.706,"end":7531.019,"text":"市以現貨的這個價格作為基礎這個社會大政才會理解了解到底未來我們的左向會怎麼樣好 接下來本席請教中東的衝突提升了這個國際的能源價格那麼中油預估3到6月份的時候你的成本會暴增1760億 是嗎"},{"start":7536.575,"end":7560.587,"text":"這個請莊委長來 莊友 是嗎這個部分指的是能源進口的成本所增加的金額對 所以你會增加1760億的成本所以你現在目前負債比是92%是92% 你的淨值大概有854億目前淨值大概是如此那你有一個規劃經濟部你規劃怎麼做你說有一個四年要規劃3500億的增資"},{"start":7564.178,"end":7566.645,"text":"而且你告訴我們說明年你首先要編列1687億"},{"start":7569.293,"end":7596.988,"text":"那你相關的財源仍需依照稅收以及舉債的情況你是用這兩個嗎請說明報告委員剛剛提到的這個1687億這個部分是明年希望增資的部分那現在我們協助中油大概有三個面向一個是專案融資另外一個是用預算來撥補那第三個是增資那這個增資的部分就是剛剛向您報告的這個部分那增資會呈現嗎"},{"start":7599.009,"end":7618.164,"text":"會不會 你三個面向嘛對專案公共預算啊 那第三個才是增資嘛增資會不會做會不會做報上來了 我們現在會不會做 請教會 要報行政院 行政院也同意了會做 那會做你的來源依據什麼依據預算啊不是啊 你的預算來源依據什麼你說依據你的稅收跟舉債的情況嗎"},{"start":7630.177,"end":7655.075,"text":"你要依據什麼這個增資的部分主要它有幾個部分它是比較算是投資未來因為它很多的部分要投資未來所以你現在還是規劃四年要增資3500億那明年是1687億但是你現在是靠舉債跟不確定性的財源來做增資是不是以這兩個面向"},{"start":7656.574,"end":7673.799,"text":"目前來講因應現在的狀況 是不是是第一個的確是舉債第二個我們當然也希望但是你告訴我們不確定的來源啊 財源啊那你如果沒有達到那中友怎麼辦本席重點要請問這個所以我們希望因為你爭執的來源是不確定性耶那怎麼辦"},{"start":7677.748,"end":7696.679,"text":"取債的部分現在行政院幫我們處理嘛另外一個撥補的部分預算撥補的部分行政院也現在幫我們處理嘛部長你說的行政院幫你處理本席要提到的這個重點就是在你財源不到的時候中油的財務如果失控一次性的調漲價格讓全民會承擔會崩潰"},{"start":7701.262,"end":7709.958,"text":"本身是預警性的告訴你因為你告訴我們周右董事長在後面點頭囉你要注意到這一點喔是是是"},{"start":7711.814,"end":7730.709,"text":"是是是是什麼意思所以我們就盡量要協助他協助中油你怎麼協助他因為你首先說的舉債舉債可以知道舉債怎麼了但是你有一個是不確定性的這個稅收啊來源啊這一段如果沒有中油怎麼辦"},{"start":7731.77,"end":7742.983,"text":"中油怎麼辦本席是看到這個問題怎麼辦所以我們盡量把這個預算盡快的提到大院如果大院可以同意的話這個就比較可以安穩部長你沒針對本席的提問啊中油是國家很重要的資產啊是人民的納稅錢欸"},{"start":7750.391,"end":7755.334,"text":"你一個舉債 你要政治的部分 一個舉債 一個不確定性的稅收來源你應該要保證啊 一定的稅收來源 中油才會安心啊對不對 那你這一點你沒有給他解決他萬一他不確定的稅收達不到的時候 那中油怎麼辦 我請問中油不能倒欸"},{"start":7772.123,"end":7781.352,"text":"是啊 那怎麼辦所有的預算都要送到立法院啊 要立法院同意啊這不是送到立法院 是原則問題耶你的稅收是不確定的來源啊你告訴我們的 部長請再編進去 他就是確定要送到立法院啊你講的是程序 本席告訴你的是原則他的財源要從哪裡來"},{"start":7797.102,"end":7824.311,"text":"行政院同意我們增長這個裁員要從哪裡來啦部長第一個是舉債嘛第二個是不確定性的稅收嘛我請問你不確定的稅收如果未達到的時候怎麼辦沒有不確定性的稅收啊你在補足資不是因為我們政府補足資對不對不是因為我們會編入明年的預算本身要告訴你的也就是說因為戰爭的問題那中油不能倒"},{"start":7825.499,"end":7852.265,"text":"一定要好好的協助我們的民生中小企業產業這非常的重要大家要好好的來協助嘛這才是讓我們的人民可以過生活嘛好 謝謝委員 終於不會倒了 加油待會鄭天才委員質詢完畢之後休息五分鐘現在我們有請李玉玲委員"},{"start":7858.537,"end":7862.593,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請經貿辦公室的徐代表請經貿辦徐代表"},{"start":7868.663,"end":7879.666,"text":"委員好 許代表面對著我們全球供應鏈的重組以及區域經濟這個經貿的整合的進程跟加速我們台灣若是沒有辦法融入高標準的國際經貿體系勢必會面臨到被排除在國際市場的風險限制了台灣出口產業的競爭力所以我們能否加入CPTPP對台灣而言是至為關鍵"},{"start":7898.211,"end":7924.158,"text":"那但是我們在2021年的9月份就向了CPTPP來遞交了我們的申請書到現在已經5年了但是入會的規定是要所有的會員國都同意的情況之下才能入會那請問一下我們這個經過這5年我們有沒有什麼具體的一個策略還是進程可以再加速還是有可能"},{"start":7925.388,"end":7949.356,"text":"請加入像委員報告就是說CPTPP的成員國對於新入會國他訂了一個所謂的奧克蘭三原則也就是說這個我們都知道直接講我們有沒有辦法進入五年了還在等待嗎那會員我們跟行政院相關部會都一起在努力你的努力我告訴你因為在"},{"start":7950.736,"end":7978.513,"text":"嚴父代表在他生前的辭職信當中特別有提到國家領導人曾經對外宣稱要爭取加入CPTPP一次實際上在執行層次充滿著消極跟敷衍的態度所以請教一下我們台灣加入CPTPP有沒有實質確定的具體的策略"},{"start":7980.284,"end":7992.952,"text":"向委員報告那個有關於那個嚴副代表的辭職信那院長在院會在立法院院會的時候已經有回答就是說我們會這個全面的來盤點來檢討那至於就是說我們"},{"start":7996.934,"end":8020.942,"text":"這個加入CPTPP的這件事情除了繼續這個推動這個會員國能夠共識讓我們入會以外同時我們也加強跟會員國個別雙邊的這個經貿的這個協議這些我們都知道五年了 每一年我這個經濟委員會五年要六年的每一年問你們CPTPP的事情都一樣的一個答案就是這樣講 就像你這樣講的"},{"start":8022.583,"end":8042.537,"text":"你知道嗎我們現在證明的就是我們有能力解決這個貿易的壁壘我們包括美國人來租我們也進口了包括日本的核食這個產品我們也解禁了我們都解禁了什麼該做的我們都做了五年過去了還是沒有所以我們希望你們要具體的啦那個岩副代表所說的"},{"start":8043.317,"end":8071.809,"text":"在他的辭職裡面所說的確實有這樣子沒有具體的策略就是一直遊說這個會員國會員國不同意共識卷有一個會員國不同意就沒辦法進去那未來現在會員國的這些主席啊今年的主席輪值到越南越南是跟大陸的話關係非常的緊密那我們是不是有什麼方法讓越南能夠支持我們進入你們有方法嗎策略具體一點的有嗎"},{"start":8073.449,"end":8088.093,"text":"外交部林部長在這個立法院相關委員會的時候已經有回答就是說這個越南的台商是非常的多所以我們的相關的部會大家都一起的努力所以還是需要台商的資源的影響力各個的力量能夠來在這個"},{"start":8090.154,"end":8103.145,"text":"我們因為台灣國際處境的關係我們是永遠都不能放棄就持續努力事實上我們在當年當年要加入GATT WTO的時候有很多人認為不可能但經過十多年還是成功的你剛才講的都是以前都講過了現在"},{"start":8105.731,"end":8128.598,"text":"主席國換了這個越南你們就要用台商的資源的影響力來請他們表態支持嗎所以越南會表態支持嗎努力當中每一個成員國都有他各自的外交跟經貿的考量但是我們會用各種的管道徐代表你講的那一套我要你告訴我我們的進程"},{"start":8129.878,"end":8138.604,"text":"我們可能做到的部分你們這幾年邊進去動好預算再做這個會員國的遊說請他們同意到現在呢"},{"start":8139.976,"end":8164.242,"text":"萊豬也進了何時也吃了還要怎麼樣所以我請你們再更積極一點好不好那現在我們最了解的一部分就是說2007年我們的經貿談判辦公室就成立了當時的時候是說要簽訂這個雙邊貿易協定這個FTA到了2016年我們又提升到行政院的層級也就是說到經濟委員會這個"},{"start":8167.644,"end":8185.022,"text":"這個層級經濟部這個層級所以我們希望我們未來在我們經濟跟我們貿易部分外交部分我們都在這邊戒掉人員都是屬於說任務型的這個組織編列可不可以說用常態性的來編列這個什麼處或什麼署的部分"},{"start":8186.282,"end":8213.832,"text":"事實上委員報告就是說事實上在OTN成立的這19年來據我所個人的了解其實在過程中都有提出就是說要編制那為什麼不同意為什麼不能專屬單位要成為一個常態單位它是有各種方方面面的考量事實上嚴副總他到我們OTN以後我也跟他就曾經有討論然後我們也有向相關院裡相關的單位有提出"},{"start":8214.332,"end":8216.514,"text":"請你停下來 聽我問好嗎本席會這麼強調就是因為我們希望強化對外的經貿談判的能量是否"},{"start":8235.006,"end":8253.158,"text":"我們來建議行政院讓經貿辦公室能夠升格為常態性的單位讓你們培訓專有的人才能夠專業專門在我們這個外交跟經濟這個領域來做我們談判的這些一段經驗的累積可不可以再建議我們的行政院好不好是 謝謝委員我們一定會攜回向長官呈報好 謝謝"},{"start":8258.407,"end":8265.609,"text":"好我還是譴責一下這個我還是沒有收到你們楊卓尼代表的那個請教書讓各本委會的委員們知道這件事情因為我也不能霸凌你們接下來的話我們有請這個鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":8298.593,"end":8327.481,"text":"主席有請鞏部長還有中郵的董事長有請鞏部長有請中郵房董事長這個根據經濟部今天的報告特別提到這個依據台美關稅協定第6.2條及付表3這個請問一下這個協定生效了嗎"},{"start":8328.576,"end":8332.449,"text":"還沒有還沒有是因為什麼原因"},{"start":8333.792,"end":8353.847,"text":"因為美國他的這個法例原來是依據IPA嘛那現在IPA最高法院他是說這個可能總統的職權有超過所以他現在法律的這個依據正在正在做一些調整所以因為還沒有也還沒有送立法院嘛對不對事實上也要這個未來會不會送會就是會依這個條約締結法"},{"start":8364.394,"end":8387.964,"text":"這個第八條這個要送立法院審議所以這個也還沒有送那從這個你的報告裡面特別提到這個向美國採購444億美元之原油及天然氣這個是要增加嗎增加 原來就採購嘛我們從"},{"start":8391.85,"end":8407.235,"text":"包括原來已經在採購的部分還會增加就對了 增加採購就算是沒有這個協定 如果按照你的報告在原油部分 中油公司從2017年就開始採購美國原油"},{"start":8412.871,"end":8434.964,"text":"這是事實嘛現在還是有在採購嘛那美國當然希望我們買多一點嘛所以才會放在這個協定裡面那現在因為有這個美以伊的戰爭中東相關的這些原油這些會受到包括很多的都會受到影響"},{"start":8436.673,"end":8457.542,"text":"所以現在就可以就算沒有協定的時候也向他採購沒有協定沒有生效你要跟他增加購買他更高興了美國更高興了是不是這樣董事長是不是這樣沒有錯沒有錯好包括這個"},{"start":8458.925,"end":8484.193,"text":"在你的報告裡面也有提到這個天然氣異化天然氣的部分這個也是這個要增加每年預估希望增加這個增加購買像這樣的一個情形之下我就很納悶你們等一下可以說明因為"},{"start":8485.66,"end":8511.026,"text":"按照中油公司汽柴油價格的這些指標油價70%杜拜30%布蘭特對不對這是一個你們的一個價格調幅的一個但是你們是用這樣的價格去出售給我們的人民的"},{"start":8512.676,"end":8537.794,"text":"對 但是你試上美國的油你也增加 還可以增加你增加買他更喜歡啊所以在這樣的情形之下你買了比較便宜的油然後你賣出去是按照你原來的指標油價70%是杜拜 30%是布蘭特每桶 每桶的美元"},{"start":8538.854,"end":8567.463,"text":"那應該是你收益啊收的更多啊那為什麼還會有這個虧損呢是不是董事長要不要說明一下是謝謝委員跟委員報告其實這個所謂D跟B它之間的關係忽高忽低啦那麼這個公式本身是算一個漲幅而不是算那個絕對值"},{"start":8568.943,"end":8584.753,"text":"所以對於這個議題有關D跟B的比例我們也尊重委員以及社會大眾的意見我們會再做一個重新的檢討對於這個所謂7D3B的比例要不要去做一個調整這部分我們會請第三機關幫我們做個檢視"},{"start":8590.708,"end":8609.657,"text":"所以你們有沒有一個預估的期限半年半年所以說還可以多賣半年還可以多賣比較買了比較便宜然後多賣一點給人民半年所以你可以說明一下那為什麼還會虧損呢"},{"start":8616.248,"end":8634.834,"text":"這個剛剛所提到說會不會對消費者來講多收我想這個大家不要有這個疑慮因為在整個機制裡面這個是算那個漲幅第二個我們也要求是要啞鈴最低價所以在啞鈴最低價等等機制裡面事實上已經在這個部分做了一個控管了"},{"start":8636.394,"end":8662.653,"text":"好 加上那個時間的關係你在做比較詳細的說明為什麼還會虧損 按照你你買的時候比較便宜 你賣的時候是按照你原來的所以還漲價所以這個部分那為什麼還是虧損這個部分你在做詳細的書面的說明那我們看這個你的報告裡面"},{"start":8665.394,"end":8683.941,"text":"這裡面提到因應國際情勢 這經濟部的報告因應國際情勢定了一個特別條例 特別預算那這個部長或是中友是不是已經在這個特別預算裡面來撥補了"},{"start":8685.578,"end":8705.758,"text":"現在行政院還在規劃當中就是說現在有三個部分一個是專案貸款來協助他第二個就是預算的撥補第三個是增資那預算的撥補到底要用什麼樣的情況是要用特別預算還是怎麼樣的預算來這個可能行政院他還在有一些考量"},{"start":8706.579,"end":8717.51,"text":"但是這個三個方向這個要去積極的跟行政院爭取因為這個特別條例裡面特別提到為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業民生"},{"start":8721.667,"end":8736.006,"text":"這當然跟產業跟民生都有關係啦符合特別條例的第一條的規定事實上這個特別條例特別預算它在各部會之間都可以"},{"start":8737.45,"end":8754.725,"text":"互相的援资跟一般的公务预算来得方便所以这个部分要请经济部为中油特别的去加强的协调谢谢委员的建议谢谢"},{"start":8980.052,"end":8981.132,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":9018.695,"end":9020.196,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":9109.114,"end":9111.514,"text":"好繼續開會接下來我們請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":9124.633,"end":9151.166,"text":"主席喔首先有請我們行政院經貿談判辦公室我們的習資深代表執行他怎樣我們時間暫停好了好不好趕快把人叫回來沒有關係我等他慢慢來"},{"start":9154.571,"end":9155.071,"text":"慢慢來 慢慢來"},{"start":9183.619,"end":9212.928,"text":"好有請這一個徐代表徐州縣秘書好剛剛我聽了李毅霖委員執行關於CPTPP後面請保持安靜那我今天這個問題我特別提出來因為我也是深受其愛的一個那那個原副總譚代表的離世裡面他有寫了一篇文章我深有同感"},{"start":9214.212,"end":9227.734,"text":"因為像這樣的人才想要好好做一件事情受到無情的打壓不要說沒有他是從美國信念回來的人對於彈砲的工作是非常的執著"},{"start":9229.315,"end":9253.301,"text":"那CPTPP講到現在我只有說我們這次忽然了事應付就是你打著這個招牌你不棄營業我從108年的時候就開始跟國安會、經濟部所有談判代表我都一直講當初我已經得到了一個消息"},{"start":9254.421,"end":9263.106,"text":"就是日本當那時候領主國家他們在邀請中國大陸去參加CPTPP"},{"start":9264.506,"end":9284.749,"text":"沒有邀請台灣我一直把這個消息給大家你們都說不會啦怎麼樣啊那為了CPTPP我們自己台灣把開發中的國家變成已開發過的國家我們幾乎都放開一切為了準備加入CPTPP"},{"start":9286.173,"end":9309.838,"text":"結果到現在沒有一個任何的成果那我今天為什麼會談到這些CPTPP它的貿易總量佔了整個經濟貿易總量20到34千我現在太久沒有查這個所以CPTPP是當初我們從107點就開始一直談這個問題但到現在都沒有反應"},{"start":9316.035,"end":9344.838,"text":"他寫出的那一句很無奈政務司胡言的一個態度所以你們現在講的話我都不信那我講什麼我受害者我是搜刮案被判刑的人我當時就是因為那個人新加坡的一個談判代表跟我講他是新加坡國際貿易談判跟我講當時的情形是這樣我為了感謝他這一句話我打了一通電話"},{"start":9346.291,"end":9348.926,"text":"所以我感觸很深"},{"start":9350.453,"end":9378.579,"text":"別再說幾位了我相信我們鞏部長在當國發會的時期也都很清楚這一段歷史所以你們現在編會的CPTPP你們以ART台美關稅協定單位指定全部EO風的就過去你簡單的回答一下老實的回答一下這些委員裡面大概當初我們都有參與CPTPP是我們最重要要突破的"},{"start":9379.139,"end":9386.553,"text":"多角貿易關邊協定最主要的一個台灣把自己是開發中的國家調升為已開發國家"},{"start":9391.568,"end":9411.967,"text":"像委員報告齁首先那個委員剛剛催詢有關於那個顏副總他在辭職信裡面所說的事情那行政院這邊已經有外聘委員在組成調查小組在調查上說那個調查小組我不管啦那是你呢我說你們的態度專業我們現在是中心決定不要把偏離主題好不好"},{"start":9412.267,"end":9425.115,"text":"有關於CPTPP的相關單位一直都是權力的在催促你們都忘了,川普一上來官報協定你們把他忘了我們針對一個,我們要去突破一個嘛我們這樣才安全嘛,才是多邊的好不好那個牆壁,真的是你們的錯誤"},{"start":9434.668,"end":9454.735,"text":"從美國關稅以來CPT幾乎被你們忘記掉了好不好請那個我們沒有忘記你們忘記啦不要講沒有忘記官話我們聽多了啦請回答好不好我不聽這種話因為從一個資深的總常辦代表寫出來代表他心中的無奈跟憤怒"},{"start":9456.328,"end":9465.604,"text":"更對政府的不滿記住這句話就好然後我請我們港部長還有中油的黃董事長"},{"start":9470.092,"end":9492.834,"text":"陳偉豪部長好黃董事長好今天你有沒有笑容沒有笑容你要增資要成功啦要增資三千五百億啊我每次每一個部長講我說這些部長只疼台電不疼中油你一個人不被重視的一個孩子"},{"start":9494.263,"end":9504.237,"text":"現在政府終於提出了3500億那時管部長你記得我一直說終於一定要增資了你要穩定文維生的物價"},{"start":9505.458,"end":9519.347,"text":"你曉得嗎?是賠中油的錢來支持台電,台電有深知了,中油一直虧下來,我說負擔不了當然世界都變化,COVID-19,烏魚的戰爭,還有現在中共的戰爭你看起來怎麼樣?這個油價還會不會繼續的上漲?"},{"start":9530.926,"end":9547.216,"text":"巴委員今天就是因為美伊雙方有一個暫時性的這個停火嘛兩個禮拜那個油價馬上從一百多塊跌到了九十幾塊那所以還是要看他那個戰事的變化我現在是要跟你請教一個問題如果依照"},{"start":9551.843,"end":9572.663,"text":"免疫的戰爭他把周邊的石油的提煉設備你油氣的什麼設備都打垮掉了你要再重整的話大概你要抓了多少時間NAS的功用量就減少了要威與仇妙還有台電的董事長在哪裡董事長在這裡董事長好久不見了"},{"start":9576.624,"end":9595.12,"text":"你現在講你們我記得你們要買美國的那個244億對不對採購嘛採購美國的發電設備嘛252億我看到只有又增加了啦你們隨時都在不是只有台電我跟你講一個事情你要特別注意你們現在就要動了"},{"start":9606.038,"end":9617.559,"text":"要買要趕快買不然你買不到因為這幾個油廠這幾個發電廠都全部被打掉了你到時候要買不到機器喔我先跟你講"},{"start":9618.943,"end":9647.204,"text":"報告委員謝謝你提醒我們其實台電很積極在爭取這些天然氣機組沒有啦 你就要先去訂啦我現在跟你講不然你到時候我跟你確定暫時一停止你那些設備一定買不到啦不用說我多好聽不然你又高價啦給美國人賺你被人家賺得很爽啊我是被美國賺得很不爽啊我是很確實跟你講美國再貴你們都買"},{"start":9648.973,"end":9675.821,"text":"但是我們都要算經濟成本啊我告訴你 你要想辦法 不然買不起來喔真的賺不到貨 先跟你講 準備一下 準備一下除了你高價買 人家買100億 台灣就變成買200億啊我們錢多啦 不怕啦這個 不會是這個樣子啦 教委員報告 這你敢不敢...好 再來我看你們的報告我會很奇怪 我們也不會這樣做"},{"start":9678.12,"end":9704.222,"text":"你當然講不會這麼做啊行事比人強啊乖乖你就要賣了你也沒有什麼辦法啦不用說多厲害啦我是提醒你提早動作提早準備那幾個被炸爛的地區發電廠什麼都沒有了大家都在搶這個生意好不好注意一下我先提醒啊如果發生的時候我到時候會好好的指責你你應該要想準備啦"},{"start":9706.886,"end":9708.708,"text":"我再來,黃董事長、部長,你講LNG的時候,跟美國講,美國購買,你們這邊大概444億,原油跟天然氣,"},{"start":9725.612,"end":9750.103,"text":"你說講美國供應比較穩定相對的跟中東澳洲的價格供應穩定價格也比較穩定這樣我很老實你也老實來回答我美國的LNG的話真的會比中東還便宜比美國還便宜嗎"},{"start":9751.62,"end":9756.205,"text":"是不是曝光源?美國的天然氣它是屬於那個頁岩氣"},{"start":9758.154,"end":9784.306,"text":"不是啦 你講他的評數 我現在問你價格穩定是怎樣叫做價格穩定過了20%跟人家買 我當然是價格較穩定你價格高跟人家買 他有錢賺他就以你第一優先嘛我現在是問你說你要跟美國買的LNG 跟中東買 跟澳洲買那個價格有沒有差別啦"},{"start":9785.186,"end":9803.005,"text":"差别有多大啦这个价格都是市场竞争性的价格美国的军机要送到亚洲来的话也要跟其他的来源去做竞争嘛所以它价格应该是竞争性我真的讲啊我相信它不会比中东便宜"},{"start":9803.919,"end":9832.378,"text":"它一定貴了很多因為拆開的成本會比較高你都這樣給我貨就貴了我替你爭執好幾次你最好不要騙我啦價格高啦你不夠啦現在政府是價格高我賣掉了這樣就好了供應無缺如果長期供應要好好的打算一下好 謝謝還有持有競爭的價格你又講到具有競爭性"},{"start":9834.008,"end":9856.407,"text":"品質穩定,我感覺美國來的酒油,我不知道它的競爭性到哪裡,品質穩定我不敢講,但是以價格的話,美國所有東西不貴你二三十倍,我討厭你賺的,人工成本貴,通貨膨脹什麼都貴,它哪裡會賣你便宜?"},{"start":9858.018,"end":9879.518,"text":"我們是賠錢的,我們可以買一把比較便宜的,但是我們煙灑頭當了太多太久了,虛以為常,好啦,給你美國賣啦,是讓我們的國家財力更污劣,好好考慮,部長,我跟你講的,這不是做生意,這就是你們的政策,什麼都跟美國買都好,"},{"start":9881.411,"end":9903.781,"text":"但是我們還是想到台灣自己未來的競爭力我們什麼都要搶我只講了一點你不要看電子業看這種傳統因為是QQ簽簽的那你是大手筆的花錢因為產品現在是長得很難看除了AI這方面更好起來不然傳統產業電子業都賺錢賺得很累啊我希望你們要能體諒這個啊"},{"start":9909.175,"end":9931.789,"text":"好不好守著臺灣的財庫讓臺灣的財務跟融後不然你盡量要把中小企業產種產業啊去把他照顧啊那個是根根本的沒有那些我們的產業會空通化我講了很久謝謝啊是中小企業是我們最關心的好不好至於這幾個問題啊世界經濟的變化現在很快啦謝謝好謝謝曾創業委員謝謝"},{"start":9938.356,"end":9950.157,"text":"好 接下來請賴若文委員質詢好 謝謝召委 請工部長跟方董事長好 請工部長跟方董事長"},{"start":9953.854,"end":9969.617,"text":"部長,上個禮拜在連假第一天又發生了中油大林場的大火這一次燒了16個小時,部長有了解到真正原因跟起火原因跟整個未來怎麼預防嗎?"},{"start":9971.631,"end":9997.606,"text":"對 我有隨時都跟中友說明一下吧 是什麼原因發生的包國炎 那麼首先很抱歉在高雄地區發生這樣一個火災發生的原因就是管線裡面有一個短管它是一個溫度計的一個短管接出來那這個接頭的部分鬆脫了那麼所以裡面管線裡面的油氣就沖出來"},{"start":9998.769,"end":10014.776,"text":"那這衝出來的過程中呢可能是接觸到管線上的本身的一個高溫而產生這樣一個火災當然目前是做這樣一個研判啦還需要去做更具體的一個檢視我先問一下多久可以有一個完整的調查報告出來"},{"start":10015.373,"end":10031.67,"text":"因為還要做一些金像上的一個檢測初步調查結果是這樣嘛對不對認為是這樣多久的時間可以有一個完整的調查報告目前是只是在初稿還沒有定稿就算檢測的部分確立以後才能確定正確的多久時間"},{"start":10033.821,"end":10052.636,"text":"可不可以給我們一個一週的時間這個計算報告要出來部長從發生4月3號到那個我希望從4月3號開始起算一週內提出完整的一個調查報告以及未來如何預防這件事情再次的發生好嗎部長可以嗎4月3號一週4月3號後一週就是從4月3號發生後一週那現在已經4月10號了"},{"start":10058.74,"end":10086.323,"text":"現在4月8號了對 就是我希望在4月10號的時候提出這一份完整的報告發生事件過後一週可以嗎可以再給我們多一點寬容的時間比如說下週一好不好好 下週一下週一給一份完整的報告發生事故原因以及未來如何預防發生好 那我直接先問一下董事長 這樣的事情怎麼樣預防發生最近已經發生多起了包括林園的大火 包括這邊的這樣的事件怎麼樣預防它再次發生"},{"start":10089.261,"end":10108.654,"text":"我個人看法就是說還是在於我們在災害預防上要去落實要去加強譬如說假設是真正是這個原因的話呢就應該對於這個突出的短管的部分要更把這個檢測的週期還更縮短來確定這個任何使用的時候都是一個正常情況"},{"start":10108.834,"end":10125.197,"text":"所以檢測的週期要再縮短 甚至於如果發現它是可能已經有一些需要更換的時候 就要進數來做更換嘛對不對不要等到了出狀況的時候才做嘛 要做預防性的檢測部長跟董事長可不可以請朝這個方向好不好立油廠每年為"},{"start":10126.418,"end":10147.808,"text":"為整個台灣也付出相當多但是不要讓當地的居民承受到這樣的一個恐慌燒16小時光周邊的居民是相當擔憂的包括空污的影響相當重大罰了500萬這還不是最大的損失而是整個所有對周邊居民的信任我希望經濟部門中友在這件事情上面要痛定思痛這該"},{"start":10149.649,"end":10175.111,"text":"該加速去更換的該做的作為都要去做為不要讓他等到那麼久我下禮拜一等你們的最後的調查報告我也希望從那邊也提到你們該有的檢討措施不要每次都為了這些什麼鬆脫什麼東西然後導致不管是所謂的什麼油氣的這個我收到兩次市議事長市議事長我收到兩次你們的報告油氣洩漏甚至石油腦的一個引發的火警"},{"start":10176.198,"end":10190.7,"text":"無論什麼我就認為這個在第一時間就應該更之前就應該預防做處理每年的公安的經費這麼多就是要做這件事情好不好我希望這都會影響到人民的一個信任跟信心我希望進一部分中友要持續來做這樣的努力好不好"},{"start":10191.82,"end":10215.59,"text":"部長可以嗎 這請全力接下來要講了 其實中友的增資我當然是支持的 特別是政見但是我也再次提醒部長跟董事長中友的增資裡面也要增加更多經費在做公安跟做環保這一塊我希望也看到你們的增資裡面對這一塊更加的重視而不是把區域的這些的外部的成本全部讓當地去承擔"},{"start":10219.552,"end":10239.864,"text":"我知道你年度預算裡面都會做啦真知不見的做這件事情但是我講的只是希望你們更加的重視這個問題會增編啦好不好增編的計畫你要讓大家知道就是我在支持你的預算的同時我不是只是在支持你承受的國家損失的虧損同時間我也要求你做更多的公安的一些要求我相信這也是所有的立委們"},{"start":10240.604,"end":10263.996,"text":"願意共同支持的一個關鍵原因 如果我們給你更多的增資 但是你的公安意外 你說的還是常在發生的時候 這個跟落差會相當大我還是要提醒 如果你前面每一個多做一點點的這些的巡檢或多縮短它的期間的話 它對於整個後面的事件也許就不會發生這個不發生同時可以幫中油省下非常多的一些成本 不管是這個"},{"start":10265.637,"end":10290.757,"text":"損失的成本或者你停工的成本甚至於周邊的外溢出來這些的人民的不信任甚至於引發有可能引發抗爭的成本都大幅的降低我認為這個是一件很重要的事情好不好我希望經濟部跟中油這邊把這件事情是列為一個重要事項我不希望再看到類似事件不斷的在發生可以嗎可以好 部長好 謝謝好 再來我也請教一下先也請台電董事長上來"},{"start":10291.497,"end":10309.946,"text":"最近高雄市也發生了非常多的董事長請先休息台電也發生很多次的跳電的一個事件我認為這個部分要加強做一些預防跟應變包括我在鳳山在小港甚至於包括在大樹甚至於在前進區很多我要講的是"},{"start":10310.686,"end":10334.253,"text":"高雄是發電的一個大區內就是不管是大林電廠南部火力發電廠到興達電廠我們也增加了很多不管是燃氣的等等的一些那李老師在自己發電的區域常常在發生一些跳電的事件而發生跳電之後可能電梯受損可能周邊居民非常不方便甚至有的停電的時間久的話可能連家裡面都受到很多的一些影響我認為這個台電要"},{"start":10336.474,"end":10352.532,"text":"更積極的去做一些改善來 董事長 曾董事長好 那個跟委員報告確實我們現在對於整個停電的狀況處理的速度都在加快那也在更新我們的舊的設備我先問一下為什麼會最近的停電的頻率增加了你現在選出來的這幾個新聞"},{"start":10355.956,"end":10381.392,"text":"我想第一個就是如果是清民節少我們那個事那顯然就是外力我想說這個這個不是啦這當然不是那個這我請他們拿掉前面包括豐山小港包括大樹包括錢津的我跟委員報告幾個事第一個事情是就是那個雷雨影響是最近就是這個整個春假期間雷雨影響那個是一個事情就有雷雨你看雷雨影響有沒有可能去"},{"start":10382.352,"end":10409.751,"text":"我們現在在處理就是因為大樹那有一根高壓的高壓的電線其實他是比較難進去啦但是這個我們會來想辦法怎麼樣改善這件事你關心的是鳳山小港大樹跟前京這幾個是不是也請台電這邊也給我一個你們的說明好不好我難以忍受的是說高雄做一個發電的大區然後自己發電那麼多的量然後整天停電的事情頻繁這個是我很難接受的我跟委員報告就是我們其實那個因為"},{"start":10412.733,"end":10418.501,"text":"範圍大啦那有些地方比較接近丘陵或什麼那個我們會儘快來想辦法改善那個大樹的累積"},{"start":10419.676,"end":10446.36,"text":"其實是一個問題我們這次有發現打水機我們跟政黨講這是一個感受的問題啦如果我們發電量那麼多的時候而我們常常發生停電而我們的改善的卻沒有比人家來的更多的時候那個心理感受是不好的我希望曾董事長把這個列為優先的項目好不好不要在發電區多的地方頻頻發生停電最後一個我請教一下部長啦齁這個伊朗的部分放行船隻的亞洲有六個國家大概都能夠去協調出來的台灣有做這樣的努力嗎"},{"start":10448.278,"end":10461.258,"text":"報告委員因為今天的消息是兩禮拜的停站所有的船隻都可以通過那因為我們是跟卡達買的是大案價格所以那個船是卡達的船"},{"start":10462.582,"end":10484.939,"text":"並不是我們的船所以我也希望未來當然這兩個停火我們希望有更好的消息但是停火或如果還是有那個狀況下我希望還是要持續的溝通讓我們這個船隻能散盡我們的各項的溝通能力好不好跟外交能力去努力去突破好嗎好謝謝好謝謝賴立榮委員接下來我們請這個邱志偉 周偉進行質詢"},{"start":10493.125,"end":10511.671,"text":"謝謝主席 也請經濟部鞏部長請經濟部鞏部長鍾游芳董事長鍾游芳董事長主席總署李副處 黃副處長經貿辦徐志密徐志密好這個第一個問題從你們的報告想請教經濟部鞏部長就是說關於鍾游的這個爭執案"},{"start":10516.064,"end":10534.709,"text":"本部將依向金融機構辦理專案融資第二個用特別國安任性特別條例的預算的餘裕進行撥補然後規劃辦理增資能不能講得更清楚一點你用這三個方向要達成未來1.16到1.19四年3500億"},{"start":10538.791,"end":10547.806,"text":"用這三個來源能不能說明更清楚一點沒有 3500億那個是編預算證資那第一年就是明年第一年我們會"},{"start":10551.653,"end":10574.02,"text":"編1687億然後後續會再編預算那你們報告說這個緊急財這些營運基金就是為了要用三千五嘛三千五百億的這個增資那講到這三項像金融機構辦理專案農資還有用特別條例的特別預算還有辦理增資對 那個專案貸款的部分是充實這個"},{"start":10576.14,"end":10594.835,"text":"綜合公司的現金流那你專案融資你要融資多少現金流可能會有所不足可能董事長比較清楚因為這是你們報告裡面寫你還要跟金融機構辦理專案融資融資的額度是多少規模是多少目前我們提出來是3000億的融資3000億不包含3500億喔"},{"start":10597.537,"end":10612.205,"text":"這是兩件事情哇塞啦你要增資三千五在未來四年嘛你要跟這個金融機構要辦理專案融資又是三千億對不對那加起來六千五了喔好那你說的用這個特別預算的餘裕進行撥補要撥補多少"},{"start":10615.202,"end":10632.282,"text":"博古現在是行政院還在核算當中所以就有三個來源三千五百億是增資三千億是跟金融機構專案融資另外還有特別預算的這個博古這樣大概將近七八千億"},{"start":10634.882,"end":10649.595,"text":"撥補我不曉得 這個要行政院看有多少的資源但是那個金額不確定 那個就是撥補的部分 現在還在討論所以你今年3月16號報行政院 這已經准了嗎"},{"start":10651.998,"end":10665.875,"text":"1687億主義總數基本上他還在因為那個是要編明年預算主義總數主義總數的代表所以這個黃副處長他原則上應該是支持我不曉得應該是支持那個主義總數這邊會看政府的財政狀況然後跟循預算程序適時提出這筆錢是要讓終於有3500億增資的一部分嗎"},{"start":10669.701,"end":10690.388,"text":"是的 按照中原目前所提的四年三千五 那經濟部現在提出來第一年那未來三年呢 你第一年就一六八七了嘛 你未來三年還有大概一千多少一千八百多 再分下面三年嘛這一錢都是用行政院的相關預算來預注嗎"},{"start":10694.422,"end":10718.433,"text":"會逐年來評估啦你們財源錢從哪裡來要說清楚要講得很清楚這是國家的財政預算你還要送立法院來審議嘛所以我先看看這錢從哪邊來就是我們編在我們經濟部增資到這個中友啊為什麼還要經過行政院"},{"start":10719.565,"end":10740.805,"text":"行政院要同意啊 因為總的那個經濟部的預算你要報行政院同意之後才要編嘛所以你是116年就要用了 那你這該算編了嗎明年啊 所以今年還在籌編當中你的目標是明年116可以1687億嘛這我們基本上支持啊 你現在這個負債比是92%"},{"start":10743.723,"end":10770.804,"text":"你這個負債792億嘛對 那個是累積虧損比你現值只差一點點你如果在財政上沒有讓中油健全的話你各項接手台對美的採購對美的採購很多啊都是中油在執行這個是跟台美之間談判出來的結果你這個對美採購包括這個原油跟這個"},{"start":10773.274,"end":10788.856,"text":"天然氣總共中油庫的執行是多少444億嘛在444億裡面要怎麼去分配要怎麼去執行你分四年嘛對不對"},{"start":10790.185,"end":10812.617,"text":"NG大概是多少比例 原油是多少比例能不能提供一些細項你444億美金 這金很大 分四年執行那你用的天然氣採購多少 原油採購多少這個部分是不是在提供資料好 可以另外這個台灣辦公室也提到"},{"start":10814.857,"end":10839.468,"text":"這個台電也有252億的電力設備不是全部台電 一部分是台電那執行單位除了台電之外還有哪些呢就是包括還有中鋼 漢翔 台船等一些設備的採購對啦 制鋼嘛 還有船用設備 儲存設施等等好 接下來152億民用航空機跟發動機是由誰來執行"},{"start":10841.339,"end":10850.684,"text":"那個是交通部應該是華航啦那經貿辦這是你們談出來的結果嘛152億要採購美國的民用航空機買飛機啦買民航機嘛還有發動機嘛這個如果不是機密的話可以讓我們知道一下到底152億要採購哪些品項如果不是機密的話"},{"start":10869.092,"end":10892.797,"text":"我們會再簽好 牛肉精密當然有精密處理的方式最後一個問題CPTPP到底是談判辦還是外交部還是經濟部組織向委員報告 這個其實是一個跨部會大家一起合作的一個愛專案誰是負責的單位學社單位是哪一個"},{"start":10896.616,"end":10922.508,"text":"最後的決策者是誰?決策的話應該是整個行政的體系我也知道啊,總之排版定案的人是誰?擬定策略的是誰?執行的是誰?策略要先擬出來,才能去執行策略誰是先鋒部隊?誰是幕僚部隊?誰是最後的決策者?這個很清楚其他有些國家在澳洲是外經貿部"},{"start":10923.902,"end":10948.534,"text":"外交部結合經貿部這個功能外經貿部所以談判要有策略要有執行的這個專業人才還有進度相關的管控這點我希望說一定要有部會你只有經貿辦啦我覺得人力不夠而且你沒有辦法去協調兩個部會你要學到12個駐外管處我是CPTPP的CPTPP過去8年"},{"start":10954.119,"end":10981.929,"text":"這不是務虛的會長 這不是務虛的會2021我開完記者會呼籲政府盡速申請加入CPTPP我大聲呼籲 之前還開過兩次結果那記者會開完之後結果老共跑去申請了我們在後面 在老共後面才申請那時候我已經呼籲很久了"},{"start":10983.541,"end":10994.788,"text":"而且這12個會員國 每一個都要很精準地去跟他們主要的決策者去跟他們談判 因為還有雙邊要談判嘛有雙邊的經濟問題要先談判 獲得他們的共識嘛這個商標法 這個製作權法"},{"start":11003.659,"end":11027.077,"text":"這些都是我當召委的時候修過才符合這個CPTPP奧克蘭三原則的這個這個經貿標準我想子敏你也很清楚吧我們早就符合奧克蘭三原則就是需要有我們有幫幫我們說話比如說日本或者英國紐澳加拿大他們可以在每次部長會議時候幫臺灣發聲說是不是我們提案讓臺灣成立臺灣陸會成立工作小組"},{"start":11034.195,"end":11049.678,"text":"由工作小組才踩出第一步我很急啊但是我覺得我不曉得我要監督你們哪一個單位我是覺得有時候我想說我仔細打電話給這個12個作業館處的大使我問大使了解目前狀況如何"},{"start":11052.967,"end":11073.468,"text":"如果部裡面沒有辦法掌握那怎麼樣去針對他們的執行狀況你要去給一些建議或是做一些調整、做一些修正呢?向委員報告外交部他就CPTPP有一個任務小組他們都定期的會跟12個會員國的駐外管處是有開會定期是多久?"},{"start":11076.49,"end":11100.609,"text":"這看外交部的規劃我們這邊看到的話大概一季至少會有一次如果我是部長每個禮拜都開會每個禮拜都開會你現在視訊會很方便嘛如果你們不開我經紀人會有來開這個駐外管處他們都有隨時就是不是你一定要給他們這個壓力才會有更強的動力嘛就代表說政府很重視台灣CBVB的入會的事情嘛是"},{"start":11101.348,"end":11130.441,"text":"如果真的當一回事真的是台灣非常重要的一個政策你就應該這個給行政部門更多的資源但是同時也給他更大的壓力讓每一個前線作戰或者後線資源的人都能夠齊心齊力把它當作一個國家經貿戰略裡面非常重要的一項如果你沒有辦法整合這些諸外管束所有這些國家的這些動向我們陸會真的是"},{"start":11132.19,"end":11153.166,"text":"遙不可及我覺得應該要加緊速度然後加強力道統合這個外交部跟經濟部的相關的力量今年是關鍵我一個人就跑了多少國家加拿大也去 連秘魯也去都我自費去還有新加坡也去 越南也去汶萊我也去看看到底汶萊的狀況如何"},{"start":11162.594,"end":11171.017,"text":"如果你們的專業絕對比我夠 但是如果我積極度啊比不上國會的話 這你們要檢討我自認我當時這個會長不是誠意務虛的都有固定的這個工作時程現在會計當中那麼滿 我還要兩天一夜 或者當天來回"},{"start":11186.085,"end":11203.884,"text":"為了什麼?就為了要讓這個國外的這些國會了解說立法院台灣的國會也很支持台灣很重視台灣教育CPTPP這個主席 抱歉喔這個講到激動處啊欲罷不能好啦 下一次齁我當周偉 我在"},{"start":11205.428,"end":11223.854,"text":"專門在排這個CPTPP議程謝謝哲偉沒問題我們也支持所以這個經貿辦請加油拖很久了每豬每牛都吃了加油好接下來我們請王紅薇委員質詢好謝謝主席我請拱部長有請拱部長"},{"start":11242.907,"end":11258.085,"text":"雖然我非常同情您在這段時間真的會焦頭爛額但是我還是要針對塑膠袋之亂再次的質詢我記得在3月25號也是在我們的經濟委員會"},{"start":11259.947,"end":11278.42,"text":"当时因为已经有很多媒体披露那也有一些业者在严重的反应说已经出现了塑胶袋之乱不停的涨价或者是缺货甚至在传统市场要塑胶袋还要收钱"},{"start":11279.381,"end":11297.73,"text":"所以在3月25號的時候我就質詢您是不是可以採取非常的手段例如在原物料的部分暫時停止出口全力供應國內的需求以抑制大家的一個預期心理或烘台"},{"start":11299.091,"end":11305.601,"text":"當時啊部長給我的反應呢是非常的輕鬆他說你說這個塑膠袋啊這個東西啊製造非常快啦很快就沒有問題可是到今天"},{"start":11314.141,"end":11329.673,"text":"已经过了两个礼拜之久塑胶袋越来越乱在礼拜一的时候我们行政院召开记者会也公布了调查局确实有去查访稽查业者"},{"start":11330.453,"end":11356.232,"text":"然后其中呢就提出来说在比如说在我们台北市的宁夏夜市或者在高雄的龙华市场这都是传统的基层的这些夜市或传统市场攀升反应塑胶袋价格上涨了三成到五成然后还有很多的地方出现了确实有供应不足的问题"},{"start":11357.052,"end":11378.594,"text":"所以完全沒有在兩個多禮拜的之前部長所講的這麼輕鬆說不會供應沒有問題可是現在供應仍然有問題那即便說這中間是不是有中盤商或者有盤商在囤貨這些問題可是無論如何這些預期心理確實起來了"},{"start":11380.316,"end":11409.181,"text":"所以請問一下我再次的請問經濟部塑膠袋之亂什麼時候可以落幕不要等到兩個禮拜之後我再同樣再質詢你同樣的問題因為這個都是深斗小民他每天會面臨到的一些他的這些價格的這個支出所以部長可不可以再給我一次很明確的答案不要兩個禮拜之後又出現啪啪啪就是打臉兩個禮拜之前的經濟部長"},{"start":11411.464,"end":11432.465,"text":"昨天我們舉辦商圈座談會前台灣大概有30個商圈的代表理事長有來北部看起來是比較和緩南部比較偏遠的地方比較明確的提到的是嘉義的部分主要我們會跟他了解他是說因為他過去"},{"start":11433.526,"end":11461.254,"text":"合作的這些盤商是有既定的那因為我們現在提供的主要是小北跟振宇五金嘛那我們現在就是處理的方式就是說沒關係你如果既有的通貨塑膠袋不是只有小北跟振宇好不好是我知道我是說我們希望如果你要用既有的通貨商我們就盡快的跟你既有的通貨商來做合作怎樣滿足你的需求部長你可不可以具體來跟我承諾什麼時候這些塑膠袋之亂問題可以解決"},{"start":11462.54,"end":11486.195,"text":"因為我們供應端來講的話我們已經增加了從原來的2.2萬噸原料的部分我們現在增加到2.75萬噸所以增加了大概百分之二十幾我認為啦如果說連塑膠袋之亂我們一直就是一直在追蹤的經濟部還沒有辦法解決其實真的問題非常非常大我真的說這就是政府無能"},{"start":11486.915,"end":11502.369,"text":"另外因為我剛才聽到邱志偉委員質詢我才嚇一跳中油要增資這是我們知道的事情媒體也都披露現在說有3000億的融資它可能解決燃煤有一些是借新還舊了"},{"start":11503.53,"end":11513.559,"text":"好所以我就要請問這個融資是長期的融資還是短期性的解決燃眉之急或者你說的借新還舊因為3500億的增資再加上3000億這真的是很大的一筆財務支出"},{"start":11519.953,"end":11538.89,"text":"报告委员据我了解等一下可以请中欧公司来说明因为借新环球它新的利息可以稍微低一点算是有对它是有帮助在中游这个回应之前我要讲一个事因为现在世界各国为了因应中东战事虽然最新是说停战两个礼拜"},{"start":11539.611,"end":11561.897,"text":"但是我們也不曉得這中間會不會又有一些狀況更何況荷姆茲海峽的開放的前提是他們要收費不管是伊朗收費或者美國也要進去來收一筆那未來整個的油價的這個成本提高已經是必然的趨勢好所以呢我這邊要特別講到就是因為現在很多的國家"},{"start":11563.738,"end":11571.745,"text":"針對當然還有產業政策還有一些節能的行政的指令就怎麼樣去節能減少燃油的消耗比如說你馬來西亞越南現在都是希望說能夠work from home就是居家辦公有些像菲律賓還說行政單位都要減少盡量的去減少你的行政的天數"},{"start":11587.6,"end":11594.084,"text":"那世界各國也都有韓國是很早就說就是要節約能源盡量少減少這個交通的這個耗油那對台灣來說對台灣來講因為我們是採取油價的補貼當然這是必須的可是另外一方面我看不到我們現在在民間有任何的大家覺得應該要來節約能源所以我個人認為"},{"start":11615.538,"end":11639.852,"text":"如果現在能源的短缺以及價格的上漲會是一個趨勢我也認為我們政府不要因為我知道很怕說因為選舉到了我們採取這些措施可能會得罪選民可是我覺得大家應該要共體時間的時候就要共體時間至少像其他國家都有這些就是包含居家辦公還有一些交通節約我覺得我們應該也有這些具體的政策因為呢"},{"start":11644.535,"end":11662.671,"text":"這個我們主席站起來了中游有關於融資的部分請提供書面的資料給我好嗎我覺得這是會更清楚因為我擔心的是這樣子的疊加會使得這個財務的支出我們至少要了解到底我們要負擔到什麼樣的程度好不好 好 謝謝謝謝黃薇委員 接下來有請邱惠祿委員質詢"},{"start":11677.318,"end":11686.64,"text":"不惜各位同仁還有現場的政府部門同仁大家好有請那個方董事長有請忠友方董事長方董事長您好我想跟您請教我們的卓院長說呢忠友呢因為吸收虧損所以呢人民要來跟忠友說謝謝請問你認同這個論調嗎"},{"start":11709.017,"end":11721.247,"text":"我認同你認同好那沒有關係我想認同的人應該是寥寥可數那不認同的人應該佔大多數為什麼不認同的人會佔大多數因為這是簡單的邏輯問題什麼叫做簡單的邏輯問題就是說謝謝的前提要有吸收虧損問題是有吸收虧損嗎第二個問題就是吸收虧損的前提要有虧損"},{"start":11735.359,"end":11741.263,"text":"所以這是很簡單的邏輯第一個就是說說謝謝的前提是吸收虧損吸收虧損的前提是要有虧損問題是有虧損嗎很重要問三次有虧損嗎完全沒有虧損為什麼完全沒有虧損我可以舉證我可以舉證三個地方因為你們的油價呢其實是低賣高賣"},{"start":11757.074,"end":11772.148,"text":"高賣的證據在哪裡就是你們是用7D3B在計算油價的成本這是一個過高的估價所以高賣的證據在這裡低賣的證據在哪裡三個證據第一個證據呢你們2017年就跟美國買油了然後呢2024年呢因為有一個叫做第三家輕拖流廠停產你們又更擴大的跟美國買油美國已經變成是我國"},{"start":11783.138,"end":11797.974,"text":"石油來源的主力國家第三個證據是什麼證據你量多跟美國買然後美國又是一個價少的一個國家我們看這個圖看這個紅框圈起來的地方就可以發現"},{"start":11799.555,"end":11817.559,"text":"美國的油價是遠低於布蘭特遠低於杜拜的油所以從這三個證據三個低買的證據一個高賣的證據我們可以得出一個結論什麼結論呢就是你們低買高賣你們是超收你們沒有虧損沒有虧損何來吸收虧損沒有吸收虧損"},{"start":11821.34,"end":11837.173,"text":"卓院長怎麼好意思請大家跟忠祐道謝呢我覺得反而是卓院長欠我們國人一句對不起吧因為你誤導國民根本沒有所謂的虧損是有超收的問題那請問一下董事長你對我的推論認同嗎"},{"start":11838.914,"end":11864.892,"text":"我不完全認同等一下認同的地方在哪裡不認同的地方在哪裡首先7D3B 提到的7D3B或者是最近提到的所謂4D6B這個計算的方式目前是用7D3B作為油價公司去計算所以中油公司按照油價公司計算本身沒有問題另外還有一個機制就是在亞林最低價也做了一個限制"},{"start":11866.813,"end":11884.788,"text":"因為我時間有限我先回答7D3B如果沒有問題為什麼要去修正那就來到我第二個問題了一個公司要修正半年你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎一個公司要搞半年才能夠把它弄好而且支票開半年半年能用好嗎不知道"},{"start":11885.308,"end":11899.596,"text":"所以現在呢既然沒有問題為什麼要修正那修正還要花半年你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎怎麼變成慢吞吞內閣拖拖拉拉內閣那我呢因為時間真的非常有限我接著想再請問你請問你說這個"},{"start":11903.078,"end":11920.009,"text":"而增資終有要增資請問一下增資的財源從哪邊來你們一手跟老百姓的身上超收有錢因為剛就是我說的低賣高賣你們是超收不是虧損請問一下你們一手從老百姓的身上扒皮"},{"start":11921.49,"end":11942.224,"text":"那現在又要搭第二層 請問是要從公務預算撥補嗎公務預算的來源不就是老百姓的稅收一隻羊到底要被你們撥幾次皮你們才會甘心請董事長回答首先這個增資的部分跟這個吸收政策吸收金額沒有關係增資預算是為了"},{"start":11943.686,"end":11959.988,"text":"加强天然气所有的建设计划的任性计划的建设这是第一个原因第二个原因对于中油公司过去的累积亏损去做一个填补为了这个目的跟这个政策吸收本身没有直接的关系"},{"start":11960.128,"end":11967.317,"text":"我覺得你要增資的前提是要確認你們有沒有盈餘你們已經是負債比92%已經快接近破產了你還增資那就如同早上的委員問你們的到時候錢拿不出來請問中友要何去何從他的命運會如何的悲慘"},{"start":11976.069,"end":11980.074,"text":"那我這邊要請董事長給我幾個數字因為我就是覺得完全沒有虧損何來攜手之索我認為就是低賣高賣所以我現在這邊要請你提供幾個數字第一個數字就是到底你們跟美國買了多少"},{"start":11992.39,"end":12002.253,"text":"有然後付出的金額是多少然後他跟7D3B所計算出來的金錢落差是多少因為這個金錢落差就可以顯示出說是一個超收所以可不可以請董事長給我這個數據那第二個就是說可能你們要先確認好銀額才能夠有增值計畫所以可不可以給我你們的銀額 盈餘是多少然後根據這樣的盈餘你們提出所謂的增值計畫這是我這邊的訴求"},{"start":12020.678,"end":12045.006,"text":"我想这个数据我们可以提供但是我想再做个说明中东事件这个期间不管是7D3B或者4D6B这个增加的幅度到达70%但中油公司在国内的售价器材的售价只有增加17%所以可以很想象的我们的售价是没有足够反映这些进口原油的成本"},{"start":12046.347,"end":12057.66,"text":"你們跟美國買的就是綠線綠線就是跟橘線還有紅線有明顯的落差所以你們的經由成本就是低這才是我說的低價收高價賣你們有超額你們有超收所以假設"},{"start":12062.725,"end":12066.432,"text":"假設我說的是假設你們有吸收虧損你們也只不過是把平常跟人民所超收的拿來這邊平益有加而已這本來就是政府的責任啦這是我這邊的看法"},{"start":12077.302,"end":12104.119,"text":"WTI以最近來講它是比布蘭特還要高的所以不一定這些指標要不一定是一定是怎麼樣它有時候有很多因素會忽高忽低我知道你有你的說法但是其實人民會相信因為你們跳票或者是轉移焦點模糊焦點的行為太多了人民會相信嗎你要說服的不是我你要說服的是我們的國人2300萬的人民"},{"start":12107.711,"end":12132.705,"text":"好這就請中郵方董事長再提書面報告那我記得總經理啊有來找我那油價公司還欠我啊還要記得啊好謝謝再請中郵這邊提供給我們資料謝謝好我們中午不休息延長開會時間至議程處理完畢接下來我們有請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":12143.797,"end":12151.261,"text":"謝謝主席 那是不是有請經濟部鞏部長跟中遊的方董事長好 請鞏部長跟方董事長蔡媛 部長好部長 那美伊的這個衝突那赫默茲海峽遭到封鎖"},{"start":12162.984,"end":12178.585,"text":"那這個封鎖也是瞬息萬變因為從昨天川普跟這個伊朗的一個對話那看起來赫默茲海峽可能會在有條件的部分之下開放但是我們現在還是先因應未來因為赫默茲海峽被封鎖後"},{"start":12179.286,"end":12201.592,"text":"那伊朗也對外的去說他們下一個會去考慮去封鎖曼德海峽雖然這不在伊朗的領土但是他們有可能會不知道怎樣去做如果曼德海峽也被封鎖的話那我們知道因為我們從第一個海峽被封鎖我們已經把46%的這一個採購原油的採購那都把它轉到了從鴻海出口"},{"start":12208.234,"end":12216.764,"text":"那如果鴻海這一個出口的也被封鎖之後那對台灣的影響會怎樣那這個經濟部跟中友有針對這樣的一個沙盤演練嗎"},{"start":12221.998,"end":12243.851,"text":"說明一下,有關原油的部分,萬一這兩個地方都封鎖了我們採購的地區,我們目前已經在接洽在西非地區的油源另外在東南亞這邊,譬如說澳洲這邊、美國這邊有去做接洽接洽有可能補得上嗎?"},{"start":12244.851,"end":12262.095,"text":"當然我們做各種努力的嘗試對 因為還沒有發生只是我想要告訴你看起來這件事並沒有辦法完全被排除所以你們一定要做最壞的一個打算是好 那第二個就是說因應昨天的一個狀況那如果如同川普所說的他跟伊朗現在談判兩個禮拜那這兩個禮拜有條件的開放赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":12267.116,"end":12281.936,"text":"那開放赫姆茲海峽這兩個禮拜我們可以對我們的原油或者是我們的天然氣的一個調度有怎樣的實質上兩個禮拜內我們可以馬上可以馬上獲得的一些補救嗎"},{"start":12283.82,"end":12310.981,"text":"目前中國公司在波斯灣裡面有一艘原油輪已經裝滿了但是出不來假設這兩週是可以出來的話那麼這一船大概有200萬桶的原油那麼對於國內的供應來講會有非常大的幫助所以這兩個禮拜內那如果這兩個禮拜假如整個大排長龍因為大家都想出來嘛擠得到嗎"},{"start":12312.702,"end":12326.237,"text":"你們有信心嗎應該是照牌嘛照牌對如果說你認為的牌序我們擠得到那這一些原油這兩百萬桶進來可以舒緩很多我們現在國內面對的壓力是是是沒有錯嗎對沒有錯"},{"start":12327.639,"end":12344.866,"text":"好那我們還是覺得因為每天瞬息萬變所以我剛講的兩個假設狀況一個是一個是已經發生了所以這兩個禮拜我們要趕快積極的努力而且你們也許可以去嘗試看還有沒有可能在這一艘郵輪之外去爭取這兩個禮拜還有第二艘郵輪這應該是你們應該要去爭取的啊是不是好那第二個我再請教一下經濟部長"},{"start":12351.969,"end":12379.649,"text":"因為現在好多業者在跟我反映除了我之前講的這個包材塑膠的一個問題現在看起來連這個瀝青因為瀝青它的原料還是來自於石油的後端產物現在連瀝青感覺上也是一個不足那這個瀝青的供應不足造成很多工程單位他們現在沒有辦法去實踐是做他們的工程所以很多"},{"start":12380.47,"end":12391.332,"text":"我們公共部門的公共建設類因此會延宕那這件事情看起來部長如果站在我們今天部長有可能在這件事情上去做怎樣的紓緩嗎"},{"start":12393.198,"end":12414.736,"text":"因為現在中油公司現在存貨還有大概2.3萬噸那如果再加上原來的台塑的這個存貨1.9萬噸現在總共還有4.2萬噸那如果剛剛提到的這個油的部分那一船可以過來的話那因為中東的石油是比較可以有力清的啦那那個又可以增加"},{"start":12415.276,"end":12437.527,"text":"所以本來的部分預估都可以到五月底啊如果那個船又進來的話因為你本來可以預估嘛然後如果那船再進來所以這樣就一定要去大家的店家跟親友去說啊因為他們不能動他們的火嘛他們現在動他們的火下游的這一些工程單位沒辦法施工然後你知道我們整個國家的很多建設會因此會受到"},{"start":12438.267,"end":12448.638,"text":"受到延宕會受到很大的影響這部分我覺得經濟部我們應該好好來面對這個問題好不好 好的 好不好好那周友可以請先回我是不是有請這個台電的董事長"},{"start":12456.025,"end":12461.369,"text":"董事長你也知道說我長期都很關心我們店鋪我們店鋪我們台電的變電所變電站的一個遷移的一個問題因為畢竟它在鋪子的市中心那我們"},{"start":12472.977,"end":12499.064,"text":"為了這個遷移我們做了好多努力包括在其他的外圍去蓋新的變電站來未來可以取代鋪子的變電站那我們知道在上個月也在董事長你的努力之下我們馬朝後的變電站也已經正式動土了所以看會不會進行那我現在想要很明確的去了解因為我們擔保住家大家很期待就是這個變電站差不多三個月可以完成遷移"},{"start":12503.822,"end":12524.187,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是我們現在加速在蓋馬車後的便利商店如果我們可以找到其他的電源轉工我們就會馬上來進行那他其實他能夠停下來的最重要的關鍵是其他的便利商店蓋好具體的時間我會後給你一個具體的報告好不好你有花具體的時間啦我希望可以"},{"start":12524.767,"end":12540.679,"text":"至少進度沒有拖延到啦都還在你們當時候承諾萬的這個時間是沒錯都還在時間內所以我們希望就是變件站我們現在新的在興建嘛包括在貴色的貴色的在興建中在碼頭後的已經凍土了"},{"start":12544.482,"end":12557.811,"text":"所以都是在進度裡面嘛對 跟委員報告 只要地方支持的我們一定都會把握進度把它做好我們地方大家也是都有在倒下我們希望這個變電站 地方是需要所以地方還是會盡量去去圓滿這一些工程的一個施作不然的話 台灣說那裡比較不適合要算的希望這個進度也是要倒筋的 好不好"},{"start":12570.6,"end":12581.847,"text":"好好那個我們可以就可以加快速度的我們都盡量再加快只要地方支持我們都會儘快好感謝郎屬電話謝謝部長好謝謝這個蔡議員接下來我們有請賴世寶委員質詢"},{"start":12597.494,"end":12604.037,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部的龔部長還有鐘友的董事長龔部長跟方董事長我請教一下先請教一下從美伊開始打仗到現在為止鐘友有沒有從荷姆茲海峽進來遛跟騎有沒有"},{"start":12622.622,"end":12630.364,"text":"有沒有二月底開始打仗到現在有沒有沒有一艘都沒有一艘都沒有有沒有在談"},{"start":12632.265,"end":12659.163,"text":"他全部都封死對我知道你現在是他封死他現在要收錢嗎要收錢有沒有跟你談就是你有沒有機會跟他談跟伊朗談我跟委員報告沒有但是我們談的對象就是那些供應國家譬如說沙烏地阿拉伯或者是聯合大公國那麼我們希望他能夠用別種方式轉運出來譬如說沙烏地阿拉伯的油管從鴻海那邊出來"},{"start":12660.603,"end":12687.937,"text":"從阿拉伯過去到阿拉伯聯合大公國到阿曼這幾個國家聯合大公國我們希望他從管線送到阿曼這邊從那邊出來所以等於說2月底開戰之後到現在沒有一滴有從中東過來是不是目前沒有但是預期會有什麼時候預期4月大概中旬就會有船從鴻海這邊送出來一艘"},{"start":12689.282,"end":12709.874,"text":"不只一艘幾艘目前在談的有四艘全部是量多少一艘船大概就是兩百萬桶兩百萬所以四艘有八百萬所以hopefully我們大概就四月中可以有這個U過來陸陸續續所以你沒有跟伊朗直接談沒有他要經過那裡要收錢我們是要收錢沒有"},{"start":12716.075,"end":12730.482,"text":"所以收不出錢跟你沒有關係沒有關係好 這個部長啊這個塑膠袋之亂啊到現在還在亂還有缺貨前幾天我去買一個飯糰不給我塑膠袋啊說塑膠袋 現在沒了沒了 欠價了 打欠價了沒沒了我買個飯糰說不要塑膠袋了是不是我手自己拿 變成這樣"},{"start":12740.885,"end":12743.949,"text":"昨天那個我們跟商圈的一些代表理事長們有談他們也希望說是不是在趁這個時候讓消費者有一個習慣自己可以帶"},{"start":12760.169,"end":12774.574,"text":"外帶啦 有時候就不會去你知道啦 自己準備當最好 自己準備便當更好對不對 但是你現在賣夫妻啦 不行的啦所以我們從源頭已經增加了料源 台灣的國民所得超過4萬美金你覺得還需要這樣子嗎 一定要很方便的因為環保啦 不是說國民所得所以缺貨是應該的是不是不是 不是 這是環保是應該的 不是缺貨應該想問你喔"},{"start":12786.946,"end":12801.288,"text":"上游幫你囤貨還是中游沒有 上游我們現在已經開始增加了比平常增加了五千五百萬噸嘛原來是五千五百萬噸Supply 品味是差不多差不多啦大概一百五十億個嘛 對不對"},{"start":12804.411,"end":12811.498,"text":"我們現在額外增加喔原來是差不多差不多但是老百姓在你說兩國是中間有問題嗎好 回過來我要提一下今天的問題喔我這個題目是中友說要增資啊"},{"start":12819.554,"end":12820.535,"text":"你注意看你財務報表109年虧73億110年虧392億111年虧1862億112虧200多億113虧300多億每年虧啊"},{"start":12835.956,"end":12844.122,"text":"中藥是怎樣?你那個董事長要不要回答一下?每年虧,然後你說政治化,我就雙手一攤,我就用料錢,大概在月底料錢,當年也料錢,按累積虧損800多億,資本額1300億,超過一半啦!按照公司法你要開股東大會啊!"},{"start":12854.266,"end":12879.085,"text":"是 報告委員就是從109年開始呢我們面臨了很多的國內外的情勢包括了COVID-19包括了惡霧戰爭以及現在的中東中東的一個情勢的變化所以中東公司的實售價格都會去做一些考慮民生的漲幅的問題做一些政策上的一個吸收所以從而造成的這個虧損不是 這是一個大黑箱啦"},{"start":12879.665,"end":12885.447,"text":"你們對外講我要吸收所以我就虧這裡面有多少是你的經營不善就把它蓋住了所以你用補貼這樣子你說我吸收用這樣的一個黑箱把你的經營不善經營不良"},{"start":12898.393,"end":12911.13,"text":"的一個真相被他蓋住了就是變成黑箱啊你的虧損黑箱在這裡然後要我們政治要政治要立法院同意我們怎麼可能同意呢你要講清楚說你政策虧多少全部都政策嗎每一頁虧多少政策嗎不是啊"},{"start":12914.995,"end":12922.44,"text":"你Community也早就過了啊 二五戰爭也差不多緩了啊 對不對所以你一直講說這個虧 兩個意思一個政策補貼 一個就是你經營不善你要把它混進去 我補貼多少 我經營不善多少看起來是經營不善 你這大黑箱啊 大黑箱啊最後一個 小問題 因為我時間到了 主席已經起來了"},{"start":12941.476,"end":12962.89,"text":"台塑的賣流IPP已經啟動了進一步你要購定的合約是不是跟原來IPP一樣是不是回答這個問題我就下去了跟委員報告這個要重新招標重新招標所以舊的不算舊的不算不是依照舊的合約好真的嗎"},{"start":12963.973,"end":12975.1,"text":"很悲哀的啦 因為錯誤的能源政策非核造成用廢發電 用滅發電啦全世界都有核電你講日本 韓國 又燒煤 但是他們也有核電基礎在那裡 結果我們沒有核 所以呢PB燒煤所以燒煤 不要忘了 這個東西這個台塑的賣料 那個南美IPB已經啟動了是不是"},{"start":12993.362,"end":13003.267,"text":"什麼時候可以啟動招標什麼時候確定可以用招標順利以後什麼時候我們預計大概是四月中會完成招標但他要整備他可能也要四月底五月才能發電"},{"start":13014.315,"end":13029.325,"text":"好所以等於4月第一整個煤全火力全開沒有沒有沒有這樣的我們用煤量一定不超過去年絕對沒有這樣子用煤發電用廢發電好謝謝大使館委員接下來我們請陳欣榮委員質詢"},{"start":13051.041,"end":13059.666,"text":"好 謝謝主席我在這邊邀請我們中油公司方董事長還有我們的經濟部長經濟部 國民新聞部長在這裡很簡單好 謝謝部長我想先救救我們方董事長"},{"start":13075.037,"end":13101.214,"text":"中友從我們的資料總委員的執行就109年就虧嘛一直持續的虧損難民的虧損我們是一個公司法人士整個經營得一個效率造成虧損的原因我們應該要去探討那今天我忽然覺得美國跟伊朗的戰爭"},{"start":13102.779,"end":13126.086,"text":"搞不好就變成你中油要來提增資最好的理由跟藉口因為政策的使然我們要平穩物價所有的一個油價的反應政策經濟部行政院就要你中油吸收那你在去年提出"},{"start":13127.537,"end":13145.654,"text":"一個增資案嘛對不對四年要3500億那也一直沒辦法確定一直到現在你經濟部這邊也正式收到你的這個增資案的一個第一年的一個需求嘛1687億對不對我請問部長"},{"start":13151.877,"end":13179.013,"text":"他提出這樣的一個政治部長你會認為夠嗎如果戰爭持續的發生另外在我們中友還有程序我們的ART我們對美的一個擴大採購444億美金這樣的一個處理下去中友的政治該怎麼處理我先問部長"},{"start":13180.509,"end":13204.77,"text":"你會覺得 總統應該怎麼增資所謂的增資是未來他設備增加比如說設備增加了嗎就是天然氣的接收站要建置啊等等一些所以他的增資完全是因為他的設備要增加好我請剛總市長你提一下你增資的理由"},{"start":13205.703,"end":13223.959,"text":"政治的理由就是剛剛部長提到了嘛就是我們一些天然氣的建設它是需要天然氣的建設它是資本性的長期支出嘛 對不對所以才要增加公司的資本好 那我請教你現在你的虧損累積虧損怎麼處理"},{"start":13227.156,"end":13253.687,"text":"你要調整油價嗎因為你的增資是要做資本的支出嘛那我請教你現在累積虧損我說啊那個背包也來啊對 差不多啦差不多嘛這個累積的虧損要漲油價嗎是啊 累積的虧損是要漲油價所以累積虧損是要用漲油價來處理嘛不是不是你剛剛是這樣回答的喔那我問你來 部長"},{"start":13256.788,"end":13270.071,"text":"油價要回去嗎為了物價穩定可以漲價嗎不是 因為油價有你把真知講得清清楚楚啦對 油價有公司嘛有兩個公司那照公司來講應該不會虧錢啊那個公司是現在來講吸收大部分所以現在來講它吸收了絕大部分一個公司制度如果油價你們有那個機制怎麼會處理到虧損"},{"start":13284.634,"end":13308.676,"text":"目前從109年的歷期虧損到現在絕對就是有問題如果這個虧損是因為政策死難因為政策那你就明明白白跟我們講跟國人同胞講因為政策死難我中油吸收了油價就成本"},{"start":13309.537,"end":13332.975,"text":"所以我的累積虧損現在就是藉由美國跟伊朗的戰爭我一次要增資我要彌補填補我的虧損我的答案是這樣啊對 增資的部分是未來投資新的設備需要而定那吸收政策吸收的部分是我們希望用撥補的方式但是我們會"},{"start":13335.397,"end":13339.762,"text":"僅限於這一次 僅限於這一次你打算要怎麼撥補來他薪資1687億嘛 那你撥補多少給他"},{"start":13345.558,"end":13372.723,"text":"波普現在行政院還在討論還在討論還不曉得數字所以政治歸政治政治跟阿中有去投資阿拉斯加的國安軍有沒有關係沒有關係沒有完全沒有關係沒有關係政治跟這個沒有關係沒有關係對政治跟我們戰爭我們產生的累積虧損沒有關係主要來講的話還是為了將來接觸那就是用波普那就要創造另外一個台電了對不對"},{"start":13373.803,"end":13378.269,"text":"台電為了一個電價共產那你去虧損我們撥補了3000億吧3000億我記得數字沒錯3000億那是增資啊那是增資那增資跟撥補就"},{"start":13391.738,"end":13394.122,"text":"波普沒那麼多波普只有500億真資2500億您看到的這個3000億裡面2500億是真資500億是波普"},{"start":13407.721,"end":13428.347,"text":"所以我們在這邊有沒有了解為了物價的一個穩定中油就是犧牲台電因為你的LNG要跟中油買大家為了物價平衡大家都犧牲但是這個內部一定要讓全體的國人來了解中油的財務結構真的"},{"start":13430.988,"end":13452.398,"text":"及其可為台電的財務結構我們也要給它做防範所以在這樣的政策博譜之下還有政策的一個這個增資的一個情況之下我希望有一個更明確的說明給我們立法院也給我一個更明確的一個說明這樣好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13455.612,"end":13474.296,"text":"好謝謝陳清榮委員接下來我們請王安祥委員質詢謝謝主席是不是有請中郵的方董事長有請中郵方董事長"},{"start":13480.336,"end":13508.677,"text":"董事長早剛剛前面很多委員都提到了這個董事長非常辛苦因為現在累積的虧損其實蠻高的大家其實對這個中油現在為了要這個平應物價的這個狀況做出一些可能你們的考量不過今天討論ART的部分你們這個好像要跟美國買400多億你們的報告上面寫的是444億美金的這個"},{"start":13509.918,"end":13534.169,"text":"LNG跟原油嘛,LNG的大概有多少?你們是寫跟原油嗎?186的樣子吧,確診數字我不記得大概啦,大概不到一半啦,大概不過因為現在國內這個等一下可能要談一下這個能源政策啦因為LNG對我們說非常重要啦從這一次這個美伊的這個戰爭就可以看出來啦"},{"start":13535.45,"end":13549.785,"text":"因為這件事情其實跟當初中油一直想要做投資這件事情其實一直大家覺得到底兩者有沒有關係因為當初本來說美國好像是邀我們去投資嘛跟日韓不曉得這兩件事情也都是跟阿拉斯加嘛那不曉得這兩件事情有沒有關聯性"},{"start":13551.585,"end":13578.103,"text":"對 就是在去年3月20號我們跟美方簽了這個意向書嘛對這意向書裡面有兩項的主題一個是投資 一個是採購LNG對所以投資的部分也在這個內涵裡面是所以現在整個我們大概現在看起來是要買大概600萬最高600對 那相對來說當初好像說這條管線是大概2000萬噸對不對所以我們大概就佔了600嘛"},{"start":13581.002,"end":13602.026,"text":"對 它整個生產量是2000萬噸沒有錯對 所以現在投資的部分跟那個採購的部分到底狀況是怎麼樣目前就是採購的部分目前就這個採購簽約雙方在洽議當中美方那邊是希望能夠在今年年底以前能夠把這個採購簽約能夠談完"},{"start":13604.907,"end":13631.725,"text":"那投資還要繼續做嗎?那個MOU的部分投資的部分目前就是周圍公司還在評估啦但是現在問題就是在於說我們沒有收到他給我們的一些詳細的內容資料所以我們沒辦法去評估說這個投資有沒有他的一個效益目前還等待他最後的資料那所以現在投資基本搞不出來所以我們現在採購上是合乎效益的嗎?就是跟阿拉斯加買我們現在比例可以拉到好像30幾%嘛對不對?"},{"start":13635.196,"end":13644.945,"text":"到2029年跟美國買的天然氣我們希望能夠到達25%左右對 量會比較大一點這樣子對於中油的過去整個營運來說跟美國買LNG是經過成本的評估嗎還是因為要簽ART所以必須要做這樣的採購"},{"start":13656.615,"end":13679.089,"text":"在我想我们就是说我们中国是国营事业嘛采购任何东西都要依据采购法所以在做来源的选择上一定是要做一个评比那么如果说从美国来的天然气呢在当时的环境里面它是具有市场竞争力的话当然是我们一个很重要的一个考虑选项目"},{"start":13679.369,"end":13700.169,"text":"好 所以LNG我們現在看起來會慢慢的如果美國這個管道是OK的話會越來越充足嘛是那這個能源上也就是說它可以提供不管是我們發電啦或是其他的用途啦會更有安全性的這個整個儲備是嗎不過現在是11天那未來採光的美國部分會提高我們的這個準備嗎"},{"start":13701.93,"end":13725.4,"text":"這個是跟國內的儲槽現有的儲槽的容積夠不夠有很大的關係對你們剛剛說要增加一些設備嘛對對所以目前來講國內的安全存在規定是11天那明年的話會提升到14天對所以就是因為這樣的採購嘛因為這樣所以我們國內的一些基礎建設變成要去新要去增加或是擴建"},{"start":13726.56,"end":13746.621,"text":"所以這個基本上在LNG比較充足的狀況應該發電的狀況燃煤的話就會比較OK嗎台電的部分台電的董事長很簡單的因為今天這個麥寮這邊我想很多委員都在問是不是還有其必要"},{"start":13747.987,"end":13764.47,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告幾個時候第一個就是因應中東的狀況現在亞洲很多國家都在啟用燃煤機組甚至連德國也在做這件事那第二個事情我們就是做好準備因為因應所有的狀況我們就是把準備做好"},{"start":13766.235,"end":13792.681,"text":"所以這個麥良其實因為我也從中部來今天有人來開記者會其實大家對這件事非常非常關注我希望LNG在有中油的規劃之後是不是台電在燃煤的基礎上因為剛剛說還沒有招標也還沒開始希望多一點為中部的我們居民的健康多一點考慮我跟委員報告我們有一個規劃我們希望就是總燃煤量在不增加的狀況下把基礎來做開起來做調節好 感謝"},{"start":13797.435,"end":13820.45,"text":"好 我們謝謝王岸祥委員 接下來我們請徐副委員質詢企業主席有請我們工部長還有中油有請工部長 中油的方董事長 台電曾董事長"},{"start":13825.703,"end":13841.23,"text":"薛恩好部長好兩位董事長好我想這一次的能源採購當然在經濟委員會許多的委員提出很多的意見在這邊我想我剛聽了之後我還是要提醒部長跟兩位董事長"},{"start":13842.41,"end":13869.125,"text":"當然現在台電跟中油面對這個穩定物價的這個處理上面當然是必須要有政策性的一個處理那也會面臨到處一個虧損的問題但是在這樣的一個前提之下我想我們為了台灣的發展為了這個民生的穩定我們也必須做很多的一個調整但是部長在這邊許多委員的提問我想你還是要更謹慎的回答不要變成提款機啦"},{"start":13870.246,"end":13878.122,"text":"提款一直給你提款之後不是只有虧損虧損完之後你還是會被罵啦所以我在想這個回應上面真的還是必須要更謹慎一點"},{"start":13879.847,"end":13898.888,"text":"部長我想這次的能源採購當然我們希望看到政府是透過擴大來源包含美國跟其他的地方來降低單一來源的風險強化能源供應的穩定度這樣的一個思考裡面會不會造成所謂的現貨跟長約的一些處理上的機制問題部長我們有沒有考慮到這些問題"},{"start":13902.405,"end":13916.614,"text":"因為我們還是希望區域來源的多元化所以就是說因為過去來講的話我們依賴這個中東地區我說天然氣來講的話那要經過很多的海峽事實上相對來講是有它的風險先有戰爭的風險"},{"start":13919.016,"end":13945.413,"text":"所以為什麼就是說我們希望因為現在美國的採購量只有佔百分之十尤其是天然氣美國又是全世界最大的出口國所以我們希望從那一邊來平衡一下多元來源保障我們這個能源安全上的韌性是 尤其不是只有為了民生我想很多產業界也很關於這個議題尤其我想鄭董事長跟方董事長一樣面對這個能源政策"},{"start":13948.836,"end":13976.539,"text":"這個尤其目前總預算沒有通過又要馬而肥又要馬而不吃草實在是很痛苦的一件事情那我想部長除了這個我們當然這個國際的能源採購是我們一個很重要的目標那我個人也是覺得就國內的再生能源這一塊部長我們應該要加一點努力啦那這個上次我也在委員會提過那針對國內再生能源這麼多元多樣化的一個能源發展上面到底經濟部跟您的態度是什麼"},{"start":13977.481,"end":14002.106,"text":"我們一定持續的支持除了原來的太陽光電還有離岸風電離岸風電現在33已經對外公布了我們希望說年底看能不能選倉完成太陽光電就是說我們還是持續的往前走尤其是屋頂型的然後新的部分包括地熱也好小水利也好甚至於輕人也好"},{"start":14002.546,"end":14028.547,"text":"我們多元的都可以來積極的來進行那尤其地熱的部分現在已經在全台灣很多的地方已經開始在做探勘尤其才開始已經事實上已經有一些已經開始生產了對啦部長我還是覺得說我們不能只仰賴外來的能源我們自己台灣還是要扶持我們自己在這能源的一個產業那尤其許多的業者我想過去一直被污名化"},{"start":14029.187,"end":14052.788,"text":"那我覺得這個污名化對我們這些正規合法的業者實在是很不公平應該要輔導他們趕快讓他們步上正軌趕快能夠提供這個再生能源合法正常的一個能源我想這也是幫我們現在很多科技廠他們需要的一個很重要的一個來源我想未來怎麼樣持續進行這樣的一個輔導的一個措施"},{"start":14053.804,"end":14070.001,"text":"現在來講比如說當然被污名化最嚴重的應該是太陽能光電那我們現在跟各部會透過行政院幫我們在協調跨部會協調尤其是跟農業部的部分那我們已經有一些比如說"},{"start":14071.002,"end":14086.604,"text":"不立耕作的這個區域啊怎麼再更有效的來開發因為那個部分他是不立耕作的那怎麼樣透過比如說租的方式或等等一些情況因為他主要是私有地所以你要整個整合起來是有點困難"},{"start":14087.065,"end":14113.154,"text":"不過我們跨部會盡量來克服類似這樣那我們絕對支持這個方向但是怎麼樣在技術層面怎麼樣在跨部會整合你們跟農業部甚至跟台電這些相關地方政府大家要怎麼合作當然針對不好的業者我們當然要淘汰不能讓他們非法來做這個事情但針對合法業者我們真的也要加快攪過來我們絕對支持尤其一些年輕人他"},{"start":14114.134,"end":14140.199,"text":"懷抱著滿腹理想來當親農來當親育結果一來之後才發現不是這麼一回事的時候很痛苦的啦是 了解保祐這拜託一下是是是然後最後主席再給我一分鐘不好意思針對塑膠袋這個供應的問題我想我也是來自基層現在我們很多的這個小攤販還有一些小吃店的部分大家挨挨救啦過去的銅板美食因為塑膠袋因為人工的問題"},{"start":14141.239,"end":14161.872,"text":"很多50年老店甚至百年老店沒辦法做部長這很嚴重的那你怎麼看待這樣的一個狀況包委員所以我們現在從三方面來支撐第一個當然是最上游的料源所以料源已經增加了原來生產塑膠袋的部分是2.2萬噸的乙烯那現在我們增加到2.75萬噸從料源來增加"},{"start":14165.214,"end":14185.782,"text":"那中間的中油的這個製造廠商的部分我們已經找到20幾家就是這個新的料源來講的話全力的供應給他們然後再來就是通路端的部分那我們通路端透過了現在說老實話可能有所欠缺的就比有些商圈跟夜市那一般民眾買的大概比較沒有問題"},{"start":14187.102,"end":14213.169,"text":"那夜市跟這個商圈的部分我們昨天也透過座談會然後日系的只要有需求只要有什麼樣的問題我們就全力的幫他解決部長這個我有另外一個想法當然現在我們針對這樣商圈的輔導業者的輔導我們針對原料商的供應我們有很多的措施但是因為過去我們有推動所謂的一個減塑的一個政策"},{"start":14214.269,"end":14236.234,"text":"那許多的商家我想也配合減塑所以過去自備環保杯自備環保餐盒商家會給他優惠打折那是商家自己發動的那面對這樣的一個塑膠危機的時候我們政府可不可能多強化這樣的一個輔導措施當然這個是跟你們跟環境部要來合作是我們跟他合作所以我也跟我們那個"},{"start":14237.254,"end":14260.935,"text":"商業署來講是不是有一個專案就是提供給這些商家他做減塑的這個部分給予一些鼓勵的一些措施我們趕快自己處理啦我們政府要Support一下啦是是是我們方向就是往這個方向來思考居居之前給我一個書面報告好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝徐副國委員那接下來劉志強委員採書面質詢蔡春蟲委員採書面質詢"},{"start":14264.437,"end":14275.898,"text":"万美玲万美玲万美玲委员武力华武力华武力华委员何欣纯何欣纯何欣纯委员接下来我们请刘书斌委员咨询"},{"start":14290.233,"end":14296.613,"text":"好 谢谢主席那有请经济部长 工部长还有台电的曾文森总裁台电曾董事长"},{"start":14301.389,"end":14323.991,"text":"好 部長好那我們知道中東的戰爭的爆發台電為了穩定電價 穩定的供電它要增加燃煤的發電它預告了5月起要重啟去年底停止運轉的麥寮燃煤電廠第一號跟第三號基礎要費三個月那我們都知道燃煤"},{"start":14324.992,"end":14329.116,"text":"電廠的發電會導致大量的空氣污染物質的排放造成嚴重的一個健康死亡的問題我們可以看到的是在2014年的時候華國大學的研究報告指出全台燃煤電廠的運轉造成了900件的早死案件"},{"start":14346.551,"end":14363.335,"text":"2018年的台大公共衛生學院的報告也指出麥寮居民的罹癌率是比他處高了1.29倍過去10年來我們看到了台灣的政府就是把非核家園的政策高舉以台灣人的安全為藉口來妨害核電的發展拖慢了核二跟核三"},{"start":14369.276,"end":14390.81,"text":"的這個研議進度了 導致現在呢它沒了乾淨 又有那個能源內信的一個核能可以使用那現在回過來要重啟這個燃煤電廠將發電的建在犧牲台灣人的這個健康和生命的之上那這部分因為重點是在能源政策的部分 那要請部長呢是不是要"},{"start":14391.63,"end":14401.796,"text":"要針對這個錯誤的非核家園政策呢 致使這個燃煤電廠需要重啟呢經濟不要對台西麥寮的這個居民高罹患的這個癌症跟死亡的負起責任 要說聲抱歉呢"},{"start":14404.056,"end":14414.243,"text":"八位委員這一次的中東戰爭所產生的影響跟這個國家有沒有和人好像沒有直接的關係直接你能源韌性是有很大的關係今天呢還有一個台灣的好空氣聯盟的保護的這樣的一個這個協會呢他們今天在開記者會的就是在指使這個問題就是說你其實當然有很多的很多的"},{"start":14429.213,"end":14447.789,"text":"減煤也是我們的政策減煤一定是我們的政策那這個只是因為中東這件事情的關係但是多少的在野黨已經跟你警告了已經跟你提醒了說你就是應該把能源韌性都應該注意到裡面去這部分的是你如果能源韌性包括核電的部分包括台"},{"start":14450.251,"end":14470.623,"text":"我們看到的總統他自己也提到說合二合三的具備重啟的條件就準備要去做這些事情因為也是看到了這個問題這是早就最重要而且你們談到國安的問題啊如果被包圍了現在不是這樣包圍啊所以你的意思你不願意澄清就對了你不願意道歉我們經濟部依法行政合二合三已經提出暫運轉的計畫我們現在只重點"},{"start":14473.359,"end":14491.574,"text":"部長你不要我問A答B喔因為我說你要不要道歉你的意思說你不要道歉嘛對不對你就是不要道歉好這大家可以看到如果是真的這樣講的話事實上核能政策不研議的政策是2011年2014年決定核四封存"},{"start":14492.034,"end":14512.241,"text":"沒有 這個政策可是你們把它法律化是你們做的喔在電業法當中 2017年的電業法就這樣做囉好 這樣子我們可以看到的是經濟部部長我問的問題在你要不要道歉因為你可以看到的是蔡總統她都願意說她要感謝在野黨在電業法當中已經有說要去感謝她把電業法她在"},{"start":14513.982,"end":14529.102,"text":"核管法當中讓他可以研議那你在這邊讓台系的這個居民可以去感受到他們的這個健康受到的一個危害甚至有人掃死了這部分你連說一個道歉你都不願意做實在是讓人覺得非常的覺得就是有點"},{"start":14530.043,"end":14536.429,"text":"我不會說草菅人命但是覺得這個部分實在是很讓人家覺得遺憾啦好那我們繼續下面一個問題我時間有限我們看到是說因為呢剛剛您也說了鄰近黨政府我們看到是說他多年來才能蒸汽減煤這個問題沒有錯啦不過我們看到是說他一年減煤了70多萬公噸的煤但是麥寮電廠在每部機組裡面單月的"},{"start":14553.985,"end":14559.108,"text":"這樣的燃煤量的15到20公噸15到20萬的公噸那如果運轉三個月呢出鍋要燒掉的是120萬公噸的煤那等於說這次台電要重啟這個麥寮電廠等於說就把兩年來的這個三個月的時間就把兩年來的這個減煤的就把它燒補回來那繼續再問的是未來幾個月是不是有更多的燃煤電廠要重啟的這個計畫包括的是說現在已經在我們看到昨天有看到是包括現在有的"},{"start":14583.681,"end":14603.364,"text":"新達林口大林等電廠是否也會有在增加因為還沒有到100%啦而且我事實上還看到說在燃氣部分都有增加到100多%的這個這樣的一個發電量啦這部分這個是不是台電的總經理回答一下台電的總經理台電的總市長這個數字是錯的2016年到2025年累計減煤量總火減673萬噸這是錯的火一年就減600萬噸"},{"start":14613.442,"end":14614.004,"text":"一年減到600萬噸是 從最高的1800多萬噸減到現在大概1100萬噸"},{"start":14620.452,"end":14643.202,"text":"好 那如果這樣的情況好 我覺得這樣子是好事情啦所以我們減煤一直在努力啦減煤一直在努力不過你們這次就重啟燃煤電廠啦這次因為的確是中東的事件 但是我們有承諾全年的總的那個煤發電量 我們一定不會超過去年這個是我們的承諾"},{"start":14644.753,"end":14662.212,"text":"這個部分我們繼續再觀察因為出現到什麼情況因為你們當初啊有個真的大概要跟你們說的你們在蔡英文總統剛上任的時候呢說到2025年的時候呢你們要的這個燃煤發電的比例是達到27%可是去年呢你們知道幾%嗎去年請回答一下去年幾%的發電量燃煤的發電比"},{"start":14665.236,"end":14683.52,"text":"三十幾啊三十五趴啊所以你們之前啊你們之前二零二六的二零一六年的時候蔡英文總統那時候說是要二十七你們去年的時候還是在二三十四三十五的情況根本也是沒有承諾實現啊當然你們以去年這個標準來看的話那今年這樣的情況我預計啊其實可能會超過因為你現在都承諾沒辦法檢驗我們就繼續往下看就對了好希望說未來你們這個減霉是好事情希望你們真的維持這個承諾好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14695.046,"end":14707.421,"text":"好謝謝劉淑冰委員侯孟凱侯孟凱侯孟凱委員蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員接下來我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":14724.854,"end":14744.234,"text":"麻煩請經濟部長,謝謝主席好,經濟部管部長好,主席好今天大家擔心能源是真的發現我們台灣的能源韌性好像蠻脆弱的啦以前台灣都一直講韌性但是一遇到中東戰事大家手忙腳亂"},{"start":14745.186,"end":14765.911,"text":"但是我覺得好像比其他國家要好耶像韓國跟日本還有東南亞部長不要比爛啦好不好來這邊跟你提醒幾件事情第一個我們講任性除了我們要去搶足夠天然氣之外我現在發現另外一個問題就是我們的接收站除潮的接收站的負債比"},{"start":14766.77,"end":14795.341,"text":"已經超過100了這個事情你知道嗎比較除曹比較不夠嘛那其他國家全球大家普遍認為這個負載率大概應該是在40%到50%才是安全的負載區間日本大概是在34韓國大概是在39但我們已經超過100我們現在去年是107啦那我想先問一下部長你覺得負載率這樣那麼高會有出現什麼問題"},{"start":14796.3,"end":14815.566,"text":"所以我們盡量再實施看有新的除槽也好或者是那個聯通管來紓壓部長我是問說會有什麼問題接收站也盡量來增加負載率如果說一直那麼高會有什麼問題會不會有安全的問題會不會有安全的問題會有安全的問題嗎第二個會有調度的問題嗎"},{"start":14821.121,"end":14848.923,"text":"你如果接收站要稅休它的使用頻率已經那麼高了如果要稅休的情況之下只要一個稅休其他調度會調不過來所以光是接收站的韌性也有問題那當然你剛剛提到都是你要解決的方法但是你解決的方法也可能會遇到一些阻礙我現在不是在跟你講那些問題現在是提醒你說我們的韌性已經不是說去國際上面搶氣的問題而已連這個接收站的負載率都超過100"},{"start":14849.884,"end":14871.506,"text":"然後是107的這是很大問題然後第二個剛剛部長你一直在回答說我們現在要多元多元嘛對不對就跟不同的國家去買天然氣是那實際上跟美國買也有一個問題就是當然歡迎去跟美國買沒有說阻礙啦但是美國它的傳奇是40天嘛那一般中東大概是十幾天對不對"},{"start":14872.458,"end":14895.078,"text":"中東大概是10年左右吧是委員所講的沒錯 從中東過來是比較近的中東比較近 美國要40天 阿曼大概16天 澳洲大概10天那你美國如果配比很高的話40天40天風險就很高碰到颱風或碰到什麼狀況 40天在海上所以這也是一個問題 我覺得你也要去考慮它傳奇過長的問題"},{"start":14898.104,"end":14922.929,"text":"這個也是一個部分所以不要一直講多元兩次多元兩次然後就說反正我們就分散買然後就沒有我們的事沒有有很多狀況還是要去克服還有一個因為我們現在多元調度啊那多元調度每一個國家的天然氣它的熱值不一樣嘛這個周遊應該知道嘛所以他進到我們的接收站裡面他要去做調整啊今天是卡達的來我要去調一次然後美國來我要去調"},{"start":14923.929,"end":14939.348,"text":"然後澳洲來我要去調啊我現在接收站的負載率已經超過100%了已經這麼忙了喔然後沒事還要一直去調這些東西那你的那個調度更捉襟見仇嘛不知道你知道對啊你們有沒有去思考這些問題"},{"start":14940.862,"end":14966.562,"text":"是 這個部分我們都掌握在這些問題我們都掌握在手上所以這個在熱值本身的調控上我們已經有一個很完整的機制那麼在傳奇上做一些因為以前沒有那麼多元嘛現在越來越多元了嘛越多元的調控要花功夫或時間又更長啊是是是是所以我講這個齁我現在講之前大家你們都不聽嘛就是說你不能夠把能源配比"},{"start":14967.931,"end":14978.923,"text":"靠那麼多的天然氣嘛50%的天然氣就會你看一發生一個中東戰事就出現了要去搶貨就出現了你看我現在講那個接收站的一頭拉苦的問題"},{"start":14980.117,"end":15004.734,"text":"如果你的配比不要那麼多天然氣你那種核能你不要把它停掉或者是其他的不會造成今天這個狀況啦我覺得既然發生了我們大家就就事論事我希望說經濟部可以好好去思考一下能源配比的問題那我再提醒一件事情你可以去行政院的那個淨零碳排的網站看一下你知道2050年行政院的目標發電大概60%到70%"},{"start":15007.017,"end":15035.911,"text":"是再生能源裡面還是講說主要要以光電跟風電為主你知道嗎這個可以去改一下了啦你覺得風電跟光電還有可能未來是2050年是我們的主要發電方式嗎而且我們2050年AI的發展到時候用電量會是現在兩倍啊我們的光電跟風電有可能忽然間變那麼多嗎部長你去看一下行政院的淨零碳盤網站到現在還在講說六七成再生能源"},{"start":15037.179,"end":15053.708,"text":"然後主要以光電跟風電為主趁這個機會把能源好好的這個檢討一下提出一個新的願景出來 謝謝好 謝謝葉仁之議員林柱英 林柱英 林柱英委員"},{"start":15056.138,"end":15070.485,"text":"好那今天所登記的委員大家都質詢完畢我稍微請各部位再耽誤一點時間我把今天各個委員的內容商量一下首先呢第一個請這個經貿辦還有台電中油針對你們的採購的內容444億的天然氣跟這個原油"},{"start":15080.149,"end":15094.18,"text":"以及電力設備252億的美金距離採購也包含核能的這些設備的開放等等請詳細列出這樣子具體的採購項目以及大概估算的金額"},{"start":15095.601,"end":15120.482,"text":"因为很多人就这样要求第二个来讲请中游在你们的融资就是300融资跟这个增资的说明请把这一个金额的用途要说清楚讲明白然后尤其包含你的筹措的来源那如果达不到的话你的应变的方案会是什么这样子"},{"start":15121.308,"end":15149.217,"text":"那另外的話第三個這個請經貿辦列出CPTPP的目前的進度以及未來你大概多久會有一些進展的報告這個非常關切這件事情也包含這個民進黨我們的邱昭偉對不對非常關心這件事情那我們也很關心我們全體老百姓是吃了一堆美豬美牛還是沒有進去啊所以都騙我們"},{"start":15150.238,"end":15152.935,"text":"所以請說明這樣的積極性跟做法"},{"start":15153.84,"end":15181.457,"text":"再来的话第五个中油在公市上次我已经有要求要一个月内调查人就没那么困难所以7D3B改6D4B请尽数提出来再来包含你的这110年到115年最近你的原油采购不管是在中东的布兰特的美国的原油的价格"},{"start":15182.037,"end":15197.724,"text":"還有天然氣三個國家的這個價格這五年來你的平均就是你的這個採購的價格是多少包含卡達澳洲跟這個美國因為這樣子委員才有辦法去估算你的這個所多花出來的錢對或不對"},{"start":15199.485,"end":15219.941,"text":"其他的话有些的议题应该跟明天有关可能在不管是塑料、塑胶、土方等等、沥青甚至包含化肥这个我想明天这些委员的话应该会再就较的做一个咨询最后的话还是请经贸办回去转告羊种谈判代表"},{"start":15225.106,"end":15241.307,"text":"千万不要给我临时请假因为你请病假我也不能说不准但是这个躲得了一世躲不了一死面对问题解决问题好不好回去转告一下以上就是今天的开会的结论summary"},{"start":15241.767,"end":15268.13,"text":"再来第一个登记发言委员除不在场外区域经理发言完毕询答结束二委员蔡春筹罗志强所提书面质询及各部会书面报告列入记录刊登公报第三书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位一周内以书面答复并复制本会委员令要求期限者从其所知本日所列一程处理完均谢谢大家现在散会"},{"start":15291.854,"end":15296.43,"text":"哦哦"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}