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大家早首先感謝大院安排本人協同國安情報機關的首長跟委員會來提報今年上半年度的業務報告以下僅就國家安全情勢的分析還有我們今年工作重點的方向跟大家做以下的提報首先第一部分是有關於國家安全情勢的分析這部分我們大概有題列六個主要的重點跟大家來做逐一的說明第一部分是有關於美國推動以實力追求和平"},{"start":1702.129,"end":1715.981,"text":"川普政府致力推動以實力追求和平的一個施政的理念並且運用全球優勢的軍力還有情報作為來遂行他的戰略目標所以我們看到在今年的一月美國也突襲並且逮捕了委內瑞拉的前總統到美國來進行審判"},{"start":1717.702,"end":1746.682,"text":"那今年的2月28號也聯合到以色列對伊朗來展開空襲的行動那牽動了整體的中東地緣政治的發展以及全球能源安全的一個變化那另外我們也注意到美國不斷地在調整國內相關的政策跟法規來鼓勵技術的創新希望能夠確保美國國防產業持續在全球位居一個領先的地位那這大概是第一個重點那第二個部分是針對印太的美盟持續地來提升拒止嚇阻的一個能量"},{"start":1747.502,"end":1771.08,"text":"在去年12月以來,川普政府已經陸續的公布國家安全戰略跟國防戰略,強調維護美國本土還有西半球的安全,並且提出對於印太安全的高度重視。依照美方的評估,台灣在半導體製造的部分具有全球的主導地位,而且在地緣政治上位居印太戰略的一個樞紐,所以確保台海的核穩,對於美國的安全還有進化利益至關重要。"},{"start":1771.48,"end":1791.011,"text":"那另外美國也強調要建立所謂的拒止防禦的一個體系所以持續的深化美日加恩印太地區的一個安全合作的機制特別是在指揮整合、連演聯訓、島鏈惡控還有後勤支援等等的部分來加強友盟之間相互的操作性跟跨域作戰的能力以便來推進區域聯防的體系"},{"start":1793.132,"end":1809.077,"text":"那除此之外,美國區友盟包括到日本、南韓、澳大利亞等國也都積極地來籌建軍工產業的飛虹供應鏈那主要的目的是在儲備相關防衛作戰的一個能量強化美盟他們在導鏈一個協同作戰的一個能力"},{"start":1809.777,"end":1838.178,"text":"那第三個重點跟大家報告的是有關於中共目前所面臨到的國內外治理的風險那在政治的部分我們可以看到中國持續的擴大對於官員的打攤數據所以依照去年中共官方公布的統計數據那他們已經處分了有98萬3千名的黨政官員那創下習近平任內最高的一個紀錄那另外今年以來也查處了軍委副主席張又俠還有軍委連參劉振利兩名上將那其中也包括到了政治局的委員馬興瑞"},{"start":1839.099,"end":1868.539,"text":"那另外還有重慶市長胡恆華等17名的中管幹部遭到查辦那相關中管幹部查辦的狀況請大家可以參閱我們在報告當中所提供的一個副表那除此之外中共的中國科學院還有中國工程院也有8名的院士遭到了除名那檢視這些院士的專業背景幾乎都是跟武器系統研發包括匿蹤的戰機雷達導彈系統有密切的關係所以不排除可能這些人會遭到查辦"},{"start":1869.119,"end":1888.175,"text":"是因為中共的武器在實際的作戰效能表現不佳有它的一個關聯性那中共藉由整封樹攤來確保幹部的一個效忠但是它也加劇了相關的官員迎合上億盲目施政或是衍生形式主義等等的消極態度來制約到中共相關政策的一個有效的推動"},{"start":1889.056,"end":1906.047,"text":"那在經濟上可以看到中共的經濟成長的增速在過去這段時間持續的下滑那特別主要的問題是國內的消費比較疲弱那而且外資投資也呈現負成長的一個狀況所以我們看到在今年中共中央兩會所公布的經濟成長目標也略微調降為4.5%到5%的一個狀況那顯示中共保守的看待後續的一個經濟發展的一個前景"},{"start":1919.657,"end":1947.696,"text":"美国持续对中共来加征大概有百分之三十的一个关税那尤其中共重要的战略伙伴包括委内瑞拉伊朗也都相继遭到美国的武力打击影响到中共能源安全以及一带一路的一个布局那另外在美中领导人的峰会的部分那双方因为地缘竞争关系没有减缓那另外在经贸谈判的角力也没有退让的迹象所以我们预判未来的川习会可能的实际的具体的成果还是会面临到一些局限性"},{"start":1948.456,"end":1963.975,"text":"那第四點跟大家報告一個重點是有關於中共對台灣的複合式威脅那影響到台海的和平穩定那在今年第一季一到三月我們看到共機對台侵擾的架次大概有420架次那而且也共機也協同到共建執行的總共有"},{"start":1964.716,"end":1979.322,"text":"十次的聯合戰備警巡那另外在侵擾我們的金門金仙治水域的部分今年一到三月那總共侵擾的有十二次之多那也顯示了中共在這個揮帶侵擾的力道並沒有任何的減緩"},{"start":1980.362,"end":2007.554,"text":"那我們可以看到中共在這個同時也組織了影子艦隊來支應相關的戰訓的任務包括徵用滾裝輪、貨輪等等的民間船舶來參與沿海地帶的海上的一個軍事投送的一個訓練那另外我們在去年整年統計下來我們的離島海嵐總共發生有四次的故障的事件那配合到相關的一個資訊的掌握那其中有三次的事件疑似都是跟中共船舶導致"},{"start":2009.295,"end":2023.973,"text":"有直接的一個關係那另外中共的漁船也不定期的到台灣本島外島周邊海域來進行活動那同時會關閉或偽冒AIS的訊號或是混用MMSI的一個識別碼來對周邊海域進行侵擾的活動"},{"start":2024.594,"end":2047.884,"text":"那針對認知作戰的部分,那在今年一月到三月,國安情報團隊我們總共收報的有異常帳號一萬三千多組,正義訊息大概有八十六萬多則。那可以看到中共持續的透過各種官媒、網路水軍、異常帳號、內容農場等等的傳送管道,來加大這種徵訊的散佈,企圖來升高我們內部的一個對立的一個氣氛。"},{"start":2048.604,"end":2067.04,"text":"那在資安供給的部分我們的政府服務網GSN在今年第一季遭到侵擾大概有1億7千多萬次那不排除中共為了今年年底的選舉來預作鋪陳那並且來拓展相關的情收監控還有竊資等等的一個意圖"},{"start":2068.081,"end":2079.649,"text":"好 第一部分跟大家提報的是有關於中共對我們的壓拉兩手的一個策略的操作在國際的打壓的部分 中共持續的來策動國際上親中的國家附和扭曲聯大2758號的決議 形塑國際一中的一個框架"},{"start":2083.191,"end":2098.718,"text":"那另外在對台統戰交流的方面我們也注意到中共持續透過各種論壇或參訪活動的一個舉辦拉攏各界人士到中國大陸來進行訪問藉機來推宣對台的政策以及兩岸促容促統的一個成效"},{"start":2099.298,"end":2118.995,"text":"那在跨境鎮壓的部分中共主要的操作手法包括有三個部分一個部分是設立舉報的機制立案懸賞通緝我國國人那第二部分是利用協力者來散佈武統的證訊製造台灣社會內部的一個恐慌那第三部分是派人到台灣來進行滋擾進行所謂的落地威脅的一個操作"},{"start":2120.256,"end":2141.591,"text":"在滲透簽名的部分,中共為了吃收我們的國防還有政府的機敏資訊也引誘我們的退役人員接觸現役的軍人來收集相關的情資所以我們從去年到今年的3月為止,起訴的共諜案人數已經累積有58人其中現役跟退役的軍人總計有32人,佔比大概是55%"},{"start":2143.172,"end":2167.983,"text":"那在經貿融台的部分 中共依照到它十五五的規劃那把重點放在拉攏我國的AI半導體還有晶片機械等等高科技產業能夠到中國來投資設廠那另外也針對我們的人才的挖角 科技的切密還有收購相關的管制貨品 非常積極的來推動那目的就是希望能夠獲取我國先進製程的晶片等等關鍵核心的技術跟產品"},{"start":2168.863,"end":2194.724,"text":"那在對台借選的部分那我們從過去選舉期間中共的一些手法可以注意到那中共可能還是會持續的運用這些AI深圍的技術來傳扇真訊甚至發布假民調開設地下賭盤以及利用落地招待或開放團客的觀光農產品採購等等的手法來影響我們內部選舉的結果以及後續政府的一個政策的一個走向那第二部分是針對全球"},{"start":2196.866,"end":2223.098,"text":"有關經濟安全跟供應鏈韌性的一個關注的一個情形那這個部分因為大家也注意到中共以這個稀土當成一個對外經濟脅迫的一個主要的手段所以川普政府也持續的跟國際友盟來建立其供應鏈合作的一個機制包括強化稀土供應鏈的一個韌性那跟跨的國家簽署了關鍵礦產的倡議那另外也邀請了全世界有50國家的代表在華府來舉辦第一屆的"},{"start":2225.7,"end":2242.758,"text":"關鍵礦產部長的一個會議那另外也跟英國、日本、南韓等9個國家成立了細和平的一個聯盟那主要的目的就是在維持關鍵礦產AI供應鏈以及半導體技術的安全跟穩定那在這個部分今年1月台美也簽署了細和平的宣言"},{"start":2243.178,"end":2271.837,"text":"以及經濟安全合作聯合聲明另外美國也持續的來推薦印太產業韌性夥伴的關係邀請了日本、南韓、菲律賓、澳大利亞等16國家參加我們台灣也是用顧問的身份來受邀與會主要的目的就是透過這些合作機制包括現在跟大家報告到的印太產業韌性夥伴關係來強化美國盟友在國防產業的合作以及推升相關的不對稱戰力以便來共同維護印太地區的和平穩定"},{"start":2272.617,"end":2298.884,"text":"好 第二部分跟大家報告的是今年我們的一個工作重點的方向那大概分為五點來跟大家做提報第二部分是深化國際情報的合作及時的來掌收情勢的一個發展那我們剛剛在提報過程當中有去提醒那中共持續的來針對各種的一個軍演法律戰跟認知作戰來對我們國內進行各種的一個施壓那所以本局會持續的來掌收國內外綜合安全情勢的發展"},{"start":2299.744,"end":2318.265,"text":"那透過我們的雙多邊國際情報會議還有安全對話那聚焦在三個重點議題第一個是有關於中共對外行為模式第二個是有關於台海安全環境的變化第三個是有關於國際政經發展的趨勢那針對相關的一個議題的綜合研判來協助我們政府進行必要的風險管控跟應處的準備"},{"start":2319.907,"end":2337.663,"text":"好,第二工作重點是有關於拓展收情部件的一個管道那祕助涉及到我們國家安全威脅的各種的一個情緒那剛剛在提報過程當中也特別去提醒大家中共目前內外所面臨到經濟不振、地緣政治競爭等等的壓力內部的治理風險也持續的升高當中"},{"start":2338.183,"end":2358.397,"text":"所以本局會持續靈活地來調整對於中共情報搜捕的作為及時地來掌握中共情勢變化的一個趨勢以及對台灣威脅的各種預警情資同時也會透過我們跨部會的合作跟國際的交流來分享海域感知MDA的技術跟經驗完善我們的預警應處的一個能力"},{"start":2359.358,"end":2388.437,"text":"第三點是有關於遏制中共統戰的一個滲透精進我們徵處協作的一個成效那中共持續運用各種的管道跟手法那對我們各界來進行滲透跟攻堅那針對這個部分本局會持續的來精進我們國安情報團隊檢調機關軍中保防單位之間的聯合徵防協作的成效那也來發揮我們情報資源司法偵辦的一個效益以便能夠來遏制中共還有境外敵對勢力的滲透破壞等等不法的圖謀"},{"start":2389.498,"end":2414.489,"text":"那第四個重點主要是聚焦在後指我們網路防控的作為防止中共對我的認知作戰那在這個部分本局會持續的來整合我們國安情報團隊網路空間的資源以便來強化網路防控聯防的一個成效後指我國數位的韌性那同時我們也會快速的來掌搜通報以及澄清涉及到國安的相關的一個正義訊息以便來確實的維護我國輿論場域的純淨"},{"start":2417.17,"end":2440.315,"text":"第五點也是最後一點我們在工作重點的部分也會聚焦在統合情報安委的部署確保我們選舉平順的舉行我想大家都知道今年有九合一的選舉為了因應九合一的選舉的需要本局在今年的二月份已經統合我們在場的國安情報團隊來成立我們查處的專案主要的目的就是希望能夠發掘中共對我們進行滲透破壞各種的線索還有事證我們也會在這個過程當中"},{"start":2446.056,"end":2467.251,"text":"來加強選舉期間跨境金流的一個監控來防範各種賭盤或線上博弈的一個操作來影響我們的選情來查查中共各種借選的一個作為來確實維護我們選舉的平順跟安全那最後部分是結語那從剛剛報告當中我們可以看到一個完整的圖像"},{"start":2467.711,"end":2492.696,"text":"也就是當前中共對我們的各種的國安的威脅跟挑戰有增無減所以本局會持續與時俱進的來調整我們的工作部署擴大跟國際我們的情報合作那同時也會來統合善用國安情報團隊跟民間的資源還有能量以便能夠來穩健有序的推動國安情報工作即先掌握戰略預警的情資並且協同我們全職機關來做出必要的及時的應處"},{"start":2493.396,"end":2517.737,"text":"那在這邊敬盼我們大院各位委員先進可以持續的給我們指導跟支持以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝局長 公開報告結束我們接下來要進行秘密會議即將清場 因為今天出席人員動多我們移動的時候全部由前門出場然後參與秘密會議的人員由後門通過偵測檢測後才可以進入請議事人員協助清場"},{"start":5663.328,"end":5673.359,"text":"好現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答那我們現在請陳永康委員上台質詢 沈委員質詢已在秘密會議質詢完畢"},{"start":5695.945,"end":5723.475,"text":"主席有請這個局長我們請局長謝謝主席 車禍委員長主席 局長大家早安剛才聽取了局裡面的報告我個人深感有關國家安全以及我們國家的核心利益它是一體兩面它是沒有妥協的空間那麼今天在場的所有涉及國安的"},{"start":5724.445,"end":5745.079,"text":"國防部會首長也都在場那麼除了國防部部以外幾乎都在場所以我今天會用幾個方法論提供一些建議做參考那大家現在實際上我們的人才濟濟但是在橫向整合的過程中間我們還有一些努力的空間那提出一些頭像尤其是剛剛局長"},{"start":5746.28,"end":5763.495,"text":"也提到了那个国外的媒体也有的时候是为了他的商业利益啊做出一些不正确的资讯的这个残破那也许会影响到我们国内明星士气的判断啊那我下面这张图这个刚才您提到了就是2015年呢"},{"start":5765.837,"end":5778.452,"text":"2025年的美國國家安全戰略他是11月出來的那麼接著就是國防戰略那下一個版本就等著軍事戰略那我們關注要看的是什麼就是印太戰略那"},{"start":5779.386,"end":5801.612,"text":"去年我曾经代表我们院里面接待了15个美国国会助理团都是法案助理资深的助理团也跟他们做了很多意见交换他们提出来了就是说因为他们有一个完整的国家安全战略所以你看到这上面四个面向四个P就是在军事的能力上面他们是预做准备"},{"start":5802.432,"end":5830.731,"text":"在这个外交事务上他是做预防措施那么在他的经济上面他是要追求经济另外就是对于他的高科技内部安全管制法律手他是要做一个保护所以四个批那实际上就是包括美国的国务院现在叫做战争部还有CIA还有他的国会他们都有一个专门的特别小组研究中国大陆所有的行政军事企图"},{"start":5831.994,"end":5852.384,"text":"他们因为是可以横向交流所以有很多资料的分享因为我们目前还没有一个我们国家版的国家安全战略就是官方版那两个面向第一个是对国际的国家来讲他看不到我们的官方版就是对我的核心利益的价值观在评估上面会跟现实面有点落差"},{"start":5852.924,"end":5877.225,"text":"第二个就是国内的人士看不到官方版的国家安全战略因为我们现在只有国防战略你看这个上次的印太战略他们因为把AI当作工具所以现在各部会用分享资料上速度非常快最下面一个就是他在那个上一个版本的印太战略讲就是说我们台湾保有做两岸交流的自我决定这是他讲的话"},{"start":5878.355,"end":5898.253,"text":"那下一个就看国家安全战略国防战略军事战略印太的下面的战略因为我们国家目前还没有没有国家安全战略那么QDR四年期国防总检讨美国在2017年就已经停止了现在是国防战略一样四年一本下面呢就是他的军事战略我们刚刚"},{"start":5899.054,"end":5927.8,"text":"發表了我們的國防報告書可是在去年10月國防報告書出來的時候還沒有提到台灣之盾也就是說這個東西將來要做滾動的修正要把這個理念導進去現在就是說我還是建議從國安的角色像我們政府希望在執政黨的任內能夠推出官方版的公開版當然有機密的內部這樣子對其他的國際的學者智庫有人來看的時候"},{"start":5928.781,"end":5930.609,"text":"就比較容易掌握我們的核心價值"},{"start":5935.785,"end":5958.472,"text":"剛剛您在提到就是最近這個美國日本以及菲律賓他們都在強化對這個東海南海整個的監控那我這個資料也是從不同的資訊裡面把剛才您那個簡報裡面部署的菲律賓還有日本部署的這些武器裝備Sensor涵蓋範圍也做了一個套疊以及日本"},{"start":5959.392,"end":5988.613,"text":"公開版的因為上次我在國防研究院也碰到日本來訪的學者他也說你們這個圖怎麼做我們說是利用GIS做個校正把圖套疊出去你就可以看到一個大範圍的圖共同圖像我們在作業過程中同同圖像需要有很多工程的背景不是光一般的行政幕僚會用的這個大家我們共同努力我也可以把資料跟局裡面做分享"},{"start":5990.407,"end":6015.928,"text":"这样才产生了一个叫JCAP所以看到的范围不仅止于台湾防空识别区乃至于旁边到宫古海峡下面到这个巴丹岛到南海这个都可以显示那这个图各位看是一个大的防空识别区因为这个海委会主委在他的这个脸书上公布了说这个中共的这个船"},{"start":6017.253,"end":6028.821,"text":"我們把套疊上去這是今天早上的防空這是國防部公布的把這個圖套上去再比較周遭的環境這個時候看出來的東西就比較客觀一點"},{"start":6030.692,"end":6052.977,"text":"像這個圖就是大範圍涵蓋了朝鮮半島日本東海南海台海那這是最近中共部一個限航區對不對但是他並沒有真正向IKEA申請那我們國內對這個判斷上就心裡會產生壓力因為他的時間很長是327到5月6號那我們怎麼做呢第一個你要把上海飛航航線"},{"start":6054.793,"end":6065.192,"text":"不是光台灣的飛航情報區不是防空識別區是飛航情報區裡面的航線套疊上去我這邊可以顯示給各位看這個大區顯示出來了"},{"start":6067.46,"end":6093.708,"text":"這是今天早上的民航機的線路背景再把上海的航線套疊起來你發現並沒有影響但是因為公開的資訊很有限在民間有時候會誤解可能會遭到心理上的誤判這個時候如果有人帶風向就變成你內心不安或是做出一些不是智當的反應這裡面都套成四層圖到五層圖了"},{"start":6095.598,"end":6119.729,"text":"用這種方法論這是台灣的這個國際航線所以我們要顯示說要把上海飛航情報局的航線也把它抓出來那去對應的軌跡圖就可以做出結果那剛才您的報告裡面提到中共對海欄的狀況像在海峽中間有很多的破壞那我們就把海欄的圖經過校正全部顯示出來那麼再去跟"},{"start":6120.549,"end":6131.514,"text":"不同的海揽跟不同的公司有中華電信有遠傳各自簽約的廠商了解到這個如果有意外的時候修復它要多少時間那這做一個參考"},{"start":6134.963,"end":6152.18,"text":"这里面比较一个新的问题就是您刚刚里面提到的就是现在实际上在国际情势里面看的就是这个我讲心理战媒体战法律战它纠结在一起现在是用AI对抗AI那在这个科技进步下法条的规则要更新"},{"start":6153.081,"end":6175.82,"text":"要跟得上AI那治理競賽那這裡面就是法律戰的作為心理戰的作為媒體戰作為我們中間會發現產生很多的假信息還有就是所謂的deep fake那最後是什麼希望導致你對一個事情的看法誤判下了一個錯誤的決心做了一個錯誤的決定"},{"start":6177.458,"end":6200.332,"text":"然後全民買單付出一個很錯誤的代價這個是我們要預防的尤其是中共的這個心理戰上面這過程中間所以它是三個面向那現在AI的技術非常進步那這個東西要大家滾動修正那將來我們還有機會再互動那這只是顯示一個所有跟AI相關的議題最後我們要因為這個月份國防部也要做這個漢光演習"},{"start":6201.693,"end":6224.586,"text":"那这里面实际上把AI导入的技术从它的节奏性你的基础防卫流程你涵盖的范围不同的层次以及能源现在讲穿了能源就是国安运善能力也是国安所以我们建议就是未来不管是执政在野我们要团结一心国家安全是不可以妥协请这个局长您做个回应"},{"start":6225.146,"end":6244.711,"text":"好 謝謝幾個重點跟委員做一些補充的說明第一部分是有關於國家安全戰略的部分那這部分委員先前也有多次的提醒我們內部會再來提出相關的討論那我知道委員也有相關的一個立法的提案那假如需要本局來提供意見的話我們很樂意來參與相關的一個意見的交流"},{"start":6245.151,"end":6269.168,"text":"那第二部分是有關於一些圖資的彙整怎麼樣用一個比較全面有系統的方式來呈現我們所面臨到比較複雜的國家安全包括海洋安全的一個圖像那這個部分我們跟委員辦公室也一直有在聯繫我們在這一部分也是我們努力的方向所以不管今天的公開版或機密版的部分我們都做相關的一個圖示的嘗試讓大家更能夠了解基本的一個樣態"},{"start":6270.009,"end":6284.63,"text":"那第三個部分是有關於中共所劃設的這個空域保留區那確實沒有影響到民航的部分因為我們第一時間就跟民航局有做過確認那他並沒有影響到民航的任何的航班航線也不用再跟上海飛航情報局做任何申請都不用"},{"start":6285.071,"end":6308.84,"text":"那我們判斷主要可能還是有點在測試外機在相關空域活動的狀況那因為有能力在當地空域活動的外機大概還是以美國為主所以我們後續再來注意美中在這一塊空域相關互動的情形那中共有沒有在相關的空域進行軍事演訓我們也會跟國防部合作透過聯合情監偵來做密切的一個助手謝謝委員"},{"start":6309.773,"end":6335.305,"text":"好謝謝局長我們大家共同努力好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳永康委員接下來我們請羅美玲委員謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長請局長好謝謝主席羅委員長"},{"start":6337.131,"end":6356.028,"text":"局長您剛剛在報告裡面有提到就是川普政府呢是致力在推動這個以實力追求和平那這個跟台灣政府的理念是一致的我們投資國防其實就是投資這個安全而且川普政府也將持續的推進這個區域聯防比如說剛剛"},{"start":6358.61,"end":6368.397,"text":"局長你也提到我國也是以顧問的身份受邀參加印太產業韌性夥伴關係我們跟友盟是要來共同打造非紅產業鏈跟不對稱戰力所以行政院也提出了國防特別條例來後製我們的國防實力建構具韌性的國防體系可是我們卻發現國民黨在他們的"},{"start":6387.63,"end":6396.034,"text":"鄭麗文主席出訪中國以前的發布了很多部的這個比如說有和平才能夠躺平不要戰爭只要和平的這個宣傳影片很顯然他們在國家跟區域安全議題上只想要耍廢而且是充滿滿滿的這個投降主義"},{"start":6406.138,"end":6430.917,"text":"那這跟國民黨版的削弱防衛任性跟國防自主的國防特別條例其實是相呼應的我在想局長你應該也看過這個在野黨的這個版本在野黨其實在這個國防特別條例在他們的版本裡面其實是把台美共同研發跟不對稱戰略這個部分這些項目全部都拿掉了"},{"start":6431.577,"end":6460.435,"text":"他們全部都拿掉了那這其實也也坐實了國安局您在2025年中共對台認知作戰操作手法分析我有看你們這個分析報告裡面有特別示警中國將要削弱國人的抗敵意志跟影響有盟原台的意願這都是中國列為他的這個戰略的目標而且也很顯然的國內呢有協力者在全力在配合"},{"start":6461.135,"end":6476.71,"text":"那如果按照這個國安局的評估如果比照國重版本的國防特別條例通過的話對於我國跟區域聯防還有跟國家安全層面上面的後面有哪一些影響或是說有哪一些嚴重的影響請問局長"},{"start":6479.425,"end":6505.806,"text":"大概委員提到有幾個主要問題我簡單做個補充的說明那一個部分是區域裡面大家對於第一島鏈現在的一個阻絕防禦的概念都很積極的來推動單邊雙邊甚至是多邊的一個合作那所以才會有委員剛剛所說明到的區域國家不管是在聯演聯訓或是在武器裝備零組件的生產的供應鏈部分都發展出更綿密的一個合作的網絡"},{"start":6506.667,"end":6535.014,"text":"那第二個部分是周邊國家的國防預算也確實不斷的在增加那以今年日本的國防預算跟去年同比來做比較的話也增加了大概3點多塊4%那南韓大概增加了7%那菲律賓增加14%所以在整體川普這種以實力追求和平的概念之下印太的美盟也確實在這部分的國防投資有明顯的增加跟去年來做比較的話那有提到的就是整個"},{"start":6536.034,"end":6548.889,"text":"可能中共在對台統戰策略的部分這部分剛剛媒體朋友也有在關切我有做一些說明那基本上大概他的策略就是核戰加壓的手法那一方面透過軍事的恫嚇還有揮帶的侵擾"},{"start":6551.792,"end":6575.974,"text":"那製造兩岸兵兇戰委的氣氛那讓台灣的社會跟民眾有感受到這種兵戰的心理的壓力跟不安那但第一方面他還透過兩岸的各種的一個交流活動來推出中共所主導所謂的兩岸和平以及中共主導所謂兩岸和平之下的和平紅利那用這種方式來分化台灣內部可能對美軍購的支持那另外也去分化可能台美的合作"},{"start":6576.334,"end":6592.248,"text":"所以基本上中共在對台操作它的脈絡還是有一個比較整體性跟系統性的一個政治目的跟統戰的手法在背後那所以在進行兩岸的交流我們也是提醒要注意到中共背後的一個政治操作的手法"},{"start":6592.995,"end":6610.92,"text":"是 那剛剛我有提到就是說像這個國防特別條例其實它裡面很多項目很重點 重點是可能就是跟美國跟我們的友盟其實有關係的一些共同要在國防上後置實力的部分其實都被拿掉了"},{"start":6611.4,"end":6632.774,"text":"所以像這個的話其實是一個可以說是一個很危險的一個警訊嘛對不對因為說實在的大家都知道說像局長你剛有所提到了全世界各國都在厚植自己的國防實力在這國防預算上面是不斷的增加連中國也都是那偏偏就是國內就是有"},{"start":6633.935,"end":6653.912,"text":"國內的就是國會議員在這個法律的這個審查或是預算審查在國防方面是多加的這個阻擾所以在這個國防安全上面是不是造成很大的這個國家安全上面有很大的這個危險的一些影響呢這個部分以您的分析來說的話"},{"start":6654.973,"end":6670.495,"text":"對 我想剛剛跟委員說明報告就是說整體印太的圖像那現在美蒙大家都加強在安保議題上面的一個合作那不管是單邊 雙邊 多邊都已經串成了一個我們把它稱為美蒙加N的一個合作的一個系統"},{"start":6671.016,"end":6695.552,"text":"那假如台灣在這一部分自己沒有去增加國防的投資或展現我們自我防衛能量的話那很容易在整個我們剛剛說到第一島鏈的主角防禦當中會出現一個破口或漏洞那這個過程當中也會去弱化了相關有門國家對我們的信任以及對我們的那個自我防衛能力的這種意識的質疑那會去弱化了我們跟其他國家合作的一個重要的一個基礎"},{"start":6696.172,"end":6712.159,"text":"那因為剛剛也提到不管在國防、產業、工業鏈的合作台灣都不要請參加了那假如我們自己在這方面投資又不足的話那當然國際友盟就會比較擔心我們在這部分是不是有足夠的能量來推出相關的多邊的合作那我覺得應該要掌握這一個很難得的印太地區"},{"start":6713.399,"end":6730.249,"text":"相關區域我們重視安保議題的機會那把它連帶到我們對於台海核穩的一個基本的一個防線的確立那我想這一點非常的重要因為台海和平穩定的現狀已經變成是在確保全球安全秩序一個很重要的一個前哨戰"},{"start":6731.469,"end":6758.906,"text":"其實躺平並沒有辦法來得到和平而是要充實我們的國防軍備才能夠追求和平我想這個國民黨跟台灣的這個理念是相左的我想支持國家的國防預算支持充實國家的軍備其實是大部分台灣人目前共同的這個共識跟這個理念"},{"start":6759.306,"end":6783.482,"text":"所以我們是在想說我們也很擔心這個國防特別條例國防特別預算不順利的話確實真的就是妨礙國家的安全所以那當然其實今天其實有很多的議題要跟局長來做這個討論當然因為時間上的關係那也沒關係我想很多有關於國家安全然後中國如何滲透的這些認知作戰的這個手法"},{"start":6789.406,"end":6813.999,"text":"提醒我們的國人要隨時讓他們有所警惕尤其是他們這些認知作戰可能是在其他的社交平台像Trade或是臉書等等我們其實也發現了有很多的影片影片剛開始可能是讓大家覺得這是很好玩這是有娛樂性的可是之後你會發現說其實後來慢慢"},{"start":6814.899,"end":6839.676,"text":"當你在常在看這些訊息這些影片的時候其實他們就會加入了一些中共如何美好中國如何美好的一些意識進來所以我在想這個可能國安局跟相關的單位隨時都要做預警隨時都要做防堵讓我們的民眾隨時都有所警惕我想這個都是國家安全很重要的一部分OK"},{"start":6840.276,"end":6866.772,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒 這部分也跟委員報告一下就我們除了在立院的詢答或是業務報告專案報告的過程當中會去提醒國人對於中共軍事還有會帶威脅的這種國安的一個挑戰以外那我們也不定期的發布專題的報告不管是認知作戰還是治安侵害或是共諜的滲透那透過這些報告來揭露中共對我們來進行滲透的一些手法那讓國人比較有警覺"},{"start":6867.352,"end":6893.463,"text":"那過去以往我們大概情資的分享報告對象是陳峰那我們現在開始跟社會大眾還有跟委員們來加強做溝通說明希望能夠縮小決策者跟社會對於國家安全議題的那個認知的落差那這樣子我們才能夠建立起全社會在國家安全上比較堅實的一個共識的基礎跟委員做以上補充OK好謝謝局長謝謝委員謝謝謝謝謝謝魏美玲委員接下來我們邀請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":6910.916,"end":6917.77,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請蔡局長我們請局長好 局長早"},{"start":6921.158,"end":6943.596,"text":"當前全球的地緣政治正處於高度的動盪也包括中東的美伊衝突以及印太地區的軍事威脅每天在持續變動的當中我們今天國安局的夜報裡也用了很大的篇幅說明有關中共目前的情勢、策略還有統戰手法"},{"start":6944.016,"end":6956.09,"text":"那我想今天能夠就這個內容不管是中共對內或對外相關政策跟台灣的未來來跟局長做一個討論那首先就是中共在2026年的這個"},{"start":6959.233,"end":6982.762,"text":"全國人大政協會議的這個兩會也在這個3月上旬在北京召開也在日前剛落幕那從這個李強所提出的政府的工作報告當中除了把設立台灣光復紀念日列為工作亮點那我們也看到經濟年度增長的這個目標調降設定在這個4.5到5%之間那這也是從1991年來這個"},{"start":6988.524,"end":7010.49,"text":"中國最保守的一次的一個數字不但無法在維持在5%以上的這個經濟成長目標也顯示出去年這個中共的經濟是增速且逐漸下滑的然而在這個經濟承受壓力的同時中共的這個國防預算仍然維持在7%的這個高成長達到1.91兆的人民幣規模"},{"start":7015.211,"end":7024.482,"text":"而在這個他們內部統治秩序經濟發展還有防範社會秩序群抗等這種自發性運動的這種維穩的經費更高達兩兆以上的這個人民幣遠超過於這個國防"},{"start":7031.95,"end":7058.139,"text":"支出的預算顯示即便這個經濟成長的速度減緩可是中共的這個武力擴張仍然沒有放緩的這個跡象而且內部全方位的這個監控管高壓的這個態勢也更加的明顯那我想請教局長就是從這次的這個兩會的政府工作報告當中我們如何去解讀中共所要傳達的這個訊息那我們又如何來解讀這種"},{"start":7059.342,"end":7061.618,"text":"資源配置所代表的相關意涵是什麼"},{"start":7062.093,"end":7089.708,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問我想這一次中共的兩會大概幾個重點那第一個重點是在解決中共自己內部的問題那就像委員剛剛所提到的不管中共在經濟增長的速度或是在國內的社會問題來民生問題來講問題都非常的多所以這一次的兩會有點提出他們政府的一個治理的方案那希望能夠安定國內的民心那這對中共政權的穩定非常的重要所以我想這大概是中共兩會的第一個重點"},{"start":7090.268,"end":7119.584,"text":"那第二部分是在委員所提到的涉台的部分那我們判斷第一個就是基本的主調沒有改變但是那些統戰交流的手法有微調那基本的主調沒有改變那就是他的主調還是維持反獨促統這是基本的主旋律那但是在對台統戰的手法有做一些微調大概幾個重點第一個就是在促容的部分那有結合到十五五的規劃那希望能夠在促容過程當中聚焦在台灣的青年"},{"start":7120.084,"end":7141.94,"text":"台灣的企業以及台灣的基層那讓這些特別鎖定的交往的對象可以享有同等待遇那這是他們特別去推宣的一個概念同等待遇那另外也特別結合到他15的規劃有特別去鎖定到台灣比較高科技的產業像是AI半導體還有相關的精密機械的產業"},{"start":7142.64,"end":7164.406,"text":"希望能夠透過這些園區的開放引起更多台商台資願意到當地來做投資不過我也知道那個成效沒有那麼好是因為以2025年去年來講那我們對大陸的投資大概只佔了我們對外總體投資的佔比3.7%而已所以看起來那個成效並沒有那麼好主要原因是因為"},{"start":7164.966,"end":7193.836,"text":"中國大陸內部投資環境確實有比較不穩定跟惡化那也造成台商在投資過程當中有所卻步那第三個大概對台的促宣的重點是在文化的交流那委員可能也知道他們也提出所謂的促進民族的這些相關的法案那希望來透過文化宗教的交流能夠讓台灣對於兩岸的宗教文化同源能有更進一步的統戰效果所以大概以上是他們這次兩會的主要重點"},{"start":7194.876,"end":7218.139,"text":"還有更優惠的這種會台政策這個都是現在中國所提出的相關一些宣傳的誘因我想在中共今年這個兩會除了在報告當中我們也看到這個複查案就這個八旗文化總編輯的這個被列為維護國家安全的一個重要案例之一"},{"start":7218.76,"end":7244.422,"text":"那他也通過了一部這個民主團結進步的促進法在今年的7月要正式實施那這一部法律存在的相當大的一個爭議不但表示將依法追究破壞民主團結的這種行為更將不表態支持統一等同破壞民主團結甚至把台灣同胞聯誼會這個相關的條文納入先前就有這個學者事件這部法律將會讓中共在"},{"start":7246.263,"end":7272.48,"text":"任何不配合的這種行為之下嫁接到既有的行政法或是刑法形塑一個對台治理的假象甚至揚言可以對境外的組織或個人執法不但讓這個法律的紅線變得極為模糊更可能逼迫民眾表態支持統一那我想請問局長這部法律是否會導致我們台灣的民眾在中國大陸甚至在第三國"},{"start":7273.3,"end":7299.289,"text":"的時候可能遭受到更大的一個風險那中共接下來這個跨境鎮壓還有這個長臂管轄的作為是否會變本加厲那政府對這個法律有什麼樣的因應的做法好那針對中共通過民族團結促進法那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下我再做一些補充那大概他在第21條有特別提到要去鼓勵台灣同胞對中華民族的認同"},{"start":7299.989,"end":7324.469,"text":"那在第61條又就提到了假如是破壞民主團結的話可以依法來追溯那我們認為他這是有點在進行對台的一個法律戰還有輿論戰的一個操作那可能象徵意義還是大於實質的意義因為畢竟台灣是一個主權的國家那我們中華民國政府也不容許中華人民共和國的法律在我們國內來實行所以他主要還是有一種"},{"start":7325.269,"end":7342.474,"text":"心理或心理戰跟法律戰輿論戰操作的一個綜合的一個手法在裡面那但是第二部分是委員所提到的我們可能要注意一下假如有國人要到對岸去那可能要特別警覺那在他的這些相關法制規範之下那可能在進出海關"},{"start":7343.154,"end":7371.693,"text":"那他會檢查你的手機那特別他有很多的法律條文的定義跟解釋非常的模糊那這會讓第一線的中共的執法人員有很大的一個權限來讓我們的附訪的國人無端入罪所以這部分也謝委員的提醒我們這部分也希望國人在到大陸訪問過程當中要注意一下個人的人身安全以及手機裡面是不是曾經有瀏覽一些批評中共的網頁或相關的通話留言"},{"start":7374.795,"end":7388.865,"text":"今年兩會的另外一個議場是解放軍代表團創下習近平上台以來最大的一個將輔減少了38人並且也未依循過去的慣例編制副團長"},{"start":7390.546,"end":7413.822,"text":"那我想這也與近年來中共大規模清洗軍方高層有關那去年跟局長您巡打討論過今年的這個人數越來越多今年包括這個軍委的副主席張又俠還有聯參部的參謀長這個劉正麗等高階的將領甚至這個政治局的委員馬興瑞等人也遭受到這個查處"},{"start":7415.123,"end":7441.729,"text":"那原先的七個人組成的這個中央軍委會現在只剩下習近平跟這個張勝明兩人已經實質走向這個軍委主席的負責制這不但會導致決策鏈的一個縮短那已經實質的走向這個軍委這個主席的這個相關的這個負責制這個會讓我們台海的情勢造成更大的一個緊張態勢我想"},{"start":7444.029,"end":7469.958,"text":"這也是大家所關心的一個主要的議題我想請問局長就是目前中共的這個軍隊權力高度集中於這個習近平一人那對於短期長期中共在這個台海的作戰能力與風險我們國安局如何去評估這第一點第二點針對這個張又俠還有劉振利的這個查處情形我們國安局目前掌握的這個狀況是如何可能會有一路整肅到明年的21大的可能嗎"},{"start":7471.499,"end":7491.978,"text":"謝謝委員長期關注這個問題那也在這部分有跟委員做一些觀念跟資訊的交流那我再把最新的狀況跟委員做一些補充那第二部分就是中共這種手法比較像是絕對效忠的清洗模式所以清洗的那個規模非常的大那上將的部分我跟委員報告過中共上將的員額有33名"},{"start":7493.619,"end":7518.548,"text":"但是現在只有四名的上將那包括他的軍委副主席張生明國防部長董軍東站的司令員楊志斌跟中站的司令員韓勝炎那其他的都是以低代高的這種戰缺的方式那在這樣的情況之下我們認為可能會影響到中共的聯合作戰還有後勤協調的鍛煉的一個現象的發生那我們也是實際上局裡面有盤點過啦"},{"start":7522.81,"end":7544.219,"text":"上將以下的中將大概有100多位有上百位那上百位裡面我們有針對中共中將要晉升上將的條件做一些盤點它有兩個條件第一個是要任滿兩年的中將才能升上將再來是你在擔任中將期間要歷經兩個職務的歷練才能升上將我們盤點了上百位的中共的中將在今年"},{"start":7545.38,"end":7562.673,"text":"2026年跟明年2027年符合晉升條件的今年可能不到五個明年也不到五個所以你可以想像這個整個它的一個指揮鏈在這樣子上降大量懸缺情況之下可能發生在連戰或後勤協調指揮上鏈路的一個斷鏈的一個風險"},{"start":7564.614,"end":7591.156,"text":"那另外可能要注意到的是在這種情況之下短期來講也許可以讓習近平更加的掌控軍權但中長期來講那可能他在軍事決策上會比較出現的問題是在於大家都表態政治正確而不敢在軍事的專業意見上提出跟可能領導人不同的一個意見那這會讓他的一個決策的視野比較線索那我們會注意到可能對於台海安全意涵的影響"},{"start":7591.656,"end":7619.978,"text":"那之前也跟委員有討論過啦過程當中會不會比較年輕的將領也會有積極要表現的機會而在台海有冒進的動作那這部分我們再來加強關注好 謝謝局長那也請我們管局這邊持續掌握相關的資訊以確保我們國家的安全好 謝謝局長各位好 我們宣告一下待會王安祥委員資訊完畢後我們休息六分鐘"},{"start":7628.907,"end":7641.66,"text":"現在我們請林祖英委員 謝謝謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請局長"},{"start":7648.84,"end":7668.798,"text":"好 謝謝主席 林委員長主席好 局長好這個有關於我想質詢的內容跟題目其實也不是新的 因為之前我在針對國防部的時候有質詢過那就是徐澄英的這個案子昨天也開庭了那麼其實如果根據起訴書是看不出來但是開庭的相關內容有"},{"start":7670.519,"end":7690.528,"text":"部分的時間點包括到2025年的10月孫憲這個人他都還進入台灣那麼我不講個案我想要請問一個通案的狀況就是我們知道現在中國人進來台灣尤其是像孫憲這種他有特殊的身份可能帶有特殊任務的其實移民署是會經過審查的可是我們發現到2025年的10月他都還進來台灣而最近我也收到了許多的朋友提醒"},{"start":7699.432,"end":7719.588,"text":"包括像有這個中國的網紅他呢穿著這個所謂中國的這種古裝到全世界甚至於進來台灣不斷的去宣傳說台灣是中國的一部分那像這樣的一個網紅為什麼他可以自由進出台灣那到底是用一個什麼樣的身份是不是說就是用這種所謂的"},{"start":7722.671,"end":7745.885,"text":"假商務交流但是實質上是在做統戰甚至於是現在已經進行像孫憲這種所謂滲透的實質任務那會不會變成是說根據我們現在兩岸人民關係條例喔如果你要進來的話必須要有一個審查而現在這個審查只是要給一個切結書是不是這個切結書現在都留於一種形式是不是這些所謂商業的公司都變成了"},{"start":7746.926,"end":7764.589,"text":"真的匪諜就在你我的身邊而且他們是假商務之名但是行滲透之時是不是這個過程現在國安局有發現而這樣的一個狀況那麼是不是要有嘉妍又或者是什麼樣的特殊的人物在這個審查不至於流於一種形式主義"},{"start":7765.88,"end":7780.299,"text":"跟委員說明一下也謝謝委員長期對於國安共諜案件的關切那我剛才在跟媒體朋友做說明了就現在在媒體上看到的所有共諜案我可以跟委員報告全部都是由我們國安系統來發動的來立案查查的"},{"start":7782.702,"end":7802.462,"text":"那有涉及到違法的事證的話我們再細簡移交給司法單位來做整版那後續才會有委員所看到的起訴書的相關的內容這大概是不就個案來講就通案來講我們的一個處理的過程大概第一部分那第二部分是委員關切到有沒有一些入籍的人士到台灣來那審查了機制的運作的狀況"},{"start":7803.203,"end":7824.909,"text":"那我們大概都有一個聯審的機制那在場的移民署也都會通報到國安局這邊來提供我們的國安意見那我們會注意的是他申請人他相關的一個黨政背景的一個狀況那或是他也許沒有黨政背景但是他很有可能是一個網紅的身份那以前在網路上有曾經張貼比較異常的這個資訊我們都有在注意啦"},{"start":7827.15,"end":7840.113,"text":"那有時候讓他們進來是必要的我們才能夠了解大概活動跟交往的狀況那所以有些的案子我們的整個的過程的處理可能都要蠻長的時間幾年時間可能都要所以局長的意思就是說其實有的時候讓他們進來是所謂的放長線釣大魚"},{"start":7848.635,"end":7875.693,"text":"是這個意思嗎?對不對?就是說你們查查的方法跟了解有的時候懷疑但是也會有做必要的這個在安全上面的防護、了解對,然後另外會有兩個狀況第一個狀況是假如他進來之後的活動跟他申請來台目的不一樣的話我們會啟動我們的機制及時驅離出境第二部分,假如他來台的活動有涉及到異常的話我記得我應該是在前年啟動一個機制我們會進行必要的約談"},{"start":7878.095,"end":7903.545,"text":"那也會列入我們的名單下次要來可能就比較沒有那麼容易但我們會配合到相關的案情案況來判斷要不要讓他來那因為這影響到我們的一些部署好那麼如果說是一個最新的訊息包括就是現在中國他會利用台灣的言論自由那麼以到台灣來進入落地採訪的方式原本是希望把台灣政治自由民主的部分報導回去"},{"start":7903.945,"end":7915.038,"text":"但是會以像最新的訊息現在包括像海峽島報的新聞中心主任王偉過去那就是以滲透的方式來買通就是朱正琦那麼像這樣的一個狀況媒體如果說已經報導了那像這樣的人"},{"start":7918.882,"end":7942.282,"text":"他在台灣這些年的活動那麼接下來還會繼續讓他留在台灣嗎那像這種的狀況以言論自由的方式其實是傷害台灣的自由民主以言論自由之名然後傷害台灣自由民主那像這樣的人的話會請他離開嗎又或者是說接下來他就像剛剛局長所說的會特別的來嚴厲的審查甚至於取消他的入台的資格"},{"start":7943.803,"end":7960.131,"text":"這大概兩個部分,剛有各位說明,進來一定都會經過審查的,那有一個聯審的機制。那第二個是他進來之後的言行,包括言論跟行為,那假如有設法的話,包括鼓吹武統,造成民眾的恐慌,甚至有時候網民都已經檢舉到我們相關的單位了。"},{"start":7961.812,"end":7987.052,"text":"那這個我們就會很快速的處理我們也曾經很短的幾個小時之內透過市區的監視器掌握那個人的動態那即時的把他驅離出境這是有的只要是違法的話那第二部分就是他假如沒有涉及到違法但是是違常違異常異常違常的狀態的話那這個部分我剛有跟委員說明我們也許會啟動約談或是列為下次拒絕入境的名單加強審查所以對於這個"},{"start":7989.213,"end":8011.938,"text":"相關的國安單位來說啦,不只是國安局,包括調查局、移民署等等,說實話,在這樣的一個所謂聯合審查的國安體制當中,你們的這個所謂業務只會越來越繁忙,因為我們台灣畢竟是一個往來自由,然後言論自由的一個體制之下,好,那麼另外當然我關注的這個部分喔,"},{"start":8012.338,"end":8039.019,"text":"接下來是不是國安單位恐怕也要跟我們相關的包括工程會等等那就是對於像這個極致公司他事實上他不只是把這個孫憲帶進台灣甚至於他還承接了政府的多項標案我算了一下光2022年喔他承接的標案就超到2022年為止他承接的標案就高達1300萬"},{"start":8041.241,"end":8059.333,"text":"言下之意是用我們人民的納稅錢真正的在養共諜啊這個是完全我相信全台灣人民都不能接受的那像這樣的公司喔未來我相信絕對是黑名單但是負責人呢因為公司可以關了再開對不對"},{"start":8061.907,"end":8077.414,"text":"這樣相關的人士會不會有一個機制讓這樣的負責人就算未來他開公司這完全已經是傷害到國家了一個把共諜引進來的公司然後拿人民納稅的錢用政府的標案養共諜"},{"start":8078.314,"end":8095.474,"text":"這是絕對不能允許的那有沒有一個這樣的機制把它列為黑名單甚至於是這一個負責人或相關的負責人都應該成為黑名單絕對不能標正不標準尤其是你看他選的單位國防大學調查局國防部榮總"},{"start":8097.316,"end":8117.884,"text":"那像這些都是攸關到全民的全民防衛非常重要擁有角色的雖然我質詢的時候都說回去審查過了發現他們沒有接觸到核心機密資料或等等但是這也表示他選的單位非常的不一般所以我在這邊想要提醒就是國安局問一下局長你怎麼來看"},{"start":8118.544,"end":8127.618,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒那也正如委員的接收到的資訊我們也去了解各單位跟這一家特定廠商"},{"start":8129.619,"end":8151.87,"text":"合作的一個狀況那因為廠商確實當時都有合格的因為委員也了解每個政府機構都有我們的政風系統去確認是不是合格廠商才能進入發包的程序所以程序看起來是沒有問題那但是委員提醒的是我們要注意的也就是說畢竟廠商還是有比較為異常的一個背景那他假如說又有承包到相關政府機敏單位的一些資"},{"start":8153.53,"end":8171.818,"text":"訓工程軟硬體的話那我們確實要注意雖然各單位在盤查過程當中發現不是有聯網的狀況的這些設備啦資安風險比較低那但是或許我們來注意不管是廠商或廠商背後的法人代表有沒有其他的新成立的公司這部分我們再來加強注意一下好 就是"},{"start":8172.478,"end":8188.343,"text":"包括這個公司它一定絕對不可能再有機會標政府的標案但是公司的負責人或者是重要因為像這樣的公司它可能不會只有負責人有時候甚至於負責人可能都只是掛名負責人那麼包括它可能涉案的程序未來這樣的人"},{"start":8189.383,"end":8208.38,"text":"他如果說還要繼續開公司甚至於是借殼上市然後借屍還魂等等那其實他都沒有機會來標政府的標案而且不是只有機敏的我認為他來標政府的標案就是用人民的納稅錢然後讓這些共諜可以自由的行走在台灣"},{"start":8209.7,"end":8229.55,"text":"事實上我們局裡面是有比其他政府單位更嚴格的一套機制那也謝謝委員的提醒我們也先從我們國安情報機關開始包括我們局裡面的做法給各單位來做個參考針對這些比較為異常的廠商來加強把關避免他們來承攬相關的發報的業務謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":8236.212,"end":8236.633,"text":"主席長 有請蔡局長"},{"start":8260.785,"end":8277.69,"text":"我想對國家安全來說因為我們現在受到中國很大的威脅我想美國對我們來說應該是非常重要的戰略夥伴所以在我們公開的報告裡面第一頁就看到美國他們基本上採用了"},{"start":8278.45,"end":8298.283,"text":"所謂實力追求和平不過這幾天我想大家都看到這個美國啊真的這個深不可測啊這個昨天晚上還說要這個打一副要打的樣子今天早上我們這個一覺醒來發現就這個好像可以演兩週啊今天早上剛剛我看那個股市又開始大漲所以對於美國這個"},{"start":8300.484,"end":8329.109,"text":"好像態度很特別不曉得國安單位對於跟美方的關係上有沒有什麼特別的看法今天早上還在跟媒體做說明中東的情勢是我們跟國際友盟交換情資一個重點的議題大概美方在過程當中他很強調實力為原則所以在第一波的軍事打擊幾乎把伊朗的海空軍都給做了癱瘓但是伊朗因為透過不對稱的方式持續的來對赫姆茲海峽的航運安全進行洗腦而增加他的一個談判的籌碼"},{"start":8330.089,"end":8359.655,"text":"那美國大概兩個重點跟委員做報告一個部分是軍事上的極限施壓因為他大概調派了這些兩棲攻擊艦、登陸艦集結到總統地區去那也給了最後的讓步的一個期限那第二部分他也透過外交穿梭的方式透過巴基斯坦還有其他種種國家在跟伊朗進行必要的一個相關的談判所以可能在極限施壓跟談判兩手策略之下那有今天早上的結果那在川普總統宣布之後伊朗外長也證實了未來兩週可能荷姆斯海峽的安全"},{"start":8360.995,"end":8386.366,"text":"就是今天為什麼股市會大漲因為我也是同學界來其實我們都在查資料的時候都會看很多各個面向的狀況不過最近看美國這個除了它是為了和平有些不為了美國的利益也可能是它重要的一個考慮之一我也建議這個很多可能要納入考慮所以這個基本上這個可以看到我們在報告書裡面有提到這個是2026裡面的一些"},{"start":8388.947,"end":8413.616,"text":"他的一些戰略美國戰略的一個考慮不過在我們去查了這個2026這個版本裡面包含他的一些國家的戰略報告也有在第二頁安全戰略或者是國防戰略裡面其實我們最近好像發現美國的他的戰略好像有一些做一些改變好像慢慢慢慢過去這個2014 2018左右他們好像都是把中國的威脅"},{"start":8414.176,"end":8421.06,"text":"跟委員說明一下在國防戰略裡面他確實有強調本土防衛跟西半球的防衛但他緊接著馬上又提到的是英泰安全的關注"},{"start":8436.767,"end":8454.615,"text":"畢竟我們看到是公開版可能也有在政治上他們做一些取捨因為後續還是有川習會的一個互動盡量沒有在文字上做一些相關不必要的一個強調不過實際上在戰略佈局上委員長有稍微看一下我們的報告有去說明到"},{"start":8454.975,"end":8481.946,"text":"美國在過程當中怎麼樣來加強跟印太友盟在安保議題防衛議題的合作那這部分不只是雙邊合作多邊的演訓也非常的綿密光這個月在菲律賓應該就有三個長次的美盟的大規模的演訓人數都快到兩萬人之多我了解就是感覺上跟美國的這個合作還是非常綿密啦不過就是有一些這種報告像我剛剛這個我今天在投影片上CSIS這個部分好像看起來很多的用詞"},{"start":8483.146,"end":8500.886,"text":"真的都比較軟了 互相尊重啊然後這個中國保持互相尊重的關係減少一些不必要的對抗我想局長應該有看到這些報告那剛剛也跟委員說明因為他後續還有領導人的會晤所以也有在鋪陳一些比較正面的外交氣氛那不過在安全"},{"start":8501.627,"end":8513.261,"text":"戰略上美國跟我們反制中國的一些作為具體的作為一直有在檯面下推動所以這個也是啦我想國內也非常關心這個川習會的狀況啦我想局長怎麼看現在大概的狀況"},{"start":8514.709,"end":8543.542,"text":"對目前大概基本上他們彼此的爭議的議題都是結構性的那我們在報告當中也特別提到了這包括地緣政治的問題軍事的競爭高科技管制的問題最重要的是還有經貿的議題關稅的議題所以問題林林總總的那都涉及結構性所以結構性就是說短期要根本的解決不容易那但是現在美國所採取的策略跟方法是來管理這些爭議那他們認為跟中國要管理爭議的話一定要鎖定習近平"},{"start":8544.042,"end":8566.854,"text":"因為他是最大領導人你跟官僚溝通接觸沒有用所以一定要跟習近平之間有這樣的領導人會晤的機制所以我看美國方面也為了這次的川習會有做一些相關的一個準備那不過我們的判斷是因為這些結構性的問題都還在所以可能重點是在於看他們怎麼來管理爭議那可能說這次川習會之後我們反倒更"},{"start":8567.994,"end":8586.646,"text":"關注的重點是在於習近平後續的回訪川習會他只是一個開場針對這些議題雙方去表述立場跟意見可是到了習近平回訪美國的時候可能又到了另外一個階段要檢視有沒有在川習會當中相關的承諾有去落實包括美國要開放"},{"start":8587.346,"end":8603.133,"text":"希望中國開放相關美國農產品進入市場到時候會被檢驗所以我想這是一個動態的過程那我們會繼續來駐收因為這個軍購的事情我今天因為我也陪著我們的主席到美國去那我這一條影片就是美國情報社的一些"},{"start":8604.534,"end":8631.334,"text":"就針對中國的威脅啦那看起來很多他都講到所謂這個2027嘛我們一直在討論這個事情啦這跟我們的軍購有關看起來其實他們很多現在內部這個情報是他們的好像感覺上那個他們不覺得剛剛局長有說啦可能跟營造一個好的川習會會有關係啦所以我也希望局長對這個美國這邊的一些態度啦可能要有一些掌握啦因為這個真的是川普他這個這個很多的策略啊其實看不大懂啦"},{"start":8632.834,"end":8657.077,"text":"對 這一部分我們大概跟國際理念相近國家都有保持密切的溝通就是在我們的報告裡面其實有很多擾台的部分包括不論是空軍 海軍或者一些漁船或是它關閉一些訊號局長是不是還是可以跟我們的國人講說我們這個國安單我們都有密切的掌握可以報告大家跟大家說一下就是我們大概都有掌握"},{"start":8657.857,"end":8672.53,"text":"有這部分在涉密的報告閉門會議當中有跟委員做充分的說明包括我們運用各種的情資來源來掌握中共包括共軍還有海上會在洗腦的整體的動態我想這個全民都非常非常關注"},{"start":8673.231,"end":8690.534,"text":"另外就是資安的部分就是這個這次報告裡面有一個就是一劑因為可能現在一劑而已大概一億七千多萬不過我們過去看過去的報告大概每天大概兩百八十萬次這樣乘起來好像最近還變比較少是不是數字上有一些不是那麼精準"},{"start":8690.994,"end":8710.441,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們在今年的一月中旬有公布一個去年整年的中共對台資安侵擾的狀況對 平均每天嘛對 那個每天是280萬次因為它是一整年的一個數據的統計的結果那但是我們這一次在業務報告當中所公布的就第一季就這一季那特別第一季當中還有涉及到"},{"start":8711.687,"end":8727.404,"text":"年假我知道 年假的部分會比較少對 會比較少所以我們只是針對第一季的總數來做一些呈現那到了年底我們會再把整年的狀況來做一個就是讓我們大概知道一下我們知道這個狀況蠻多的嘛就是這個數字可能還是請局長在出來的時候做一些那個"},{"start":8728.164,"end":8753.76,"text":"那當然我看到前面很多委員都非常關注這個東西啦就是這個共諜案的部分我想就是還是請因為發生非常非常多而且很多人都是蠻重要的位子啦不想局長這個其實剛剛那個金牌裡面有提到一些啦現在我們是不是可以強化一些我們的相關的作為就可以跟大家報告的部分好那這部分中共對台的一些滲透啦還有勤工活動大概都是系統性的"},{"start":8755.001,"end":8771.122,"text":"針對性的跟計劃性的那所謂的系統性的指的是它包括國安系統勤工系統統戰系統他們都有一個非常綿密的組織來推動對台的這些情收次密或發展組織的工作第二個它是計劃性的也就是它都有發展出"},{"start":8771.562,"end":8787.865,"text":"一套的網絡來接觸可能稱為他在台協力者的來自台灣各界的一個人士的一個透過交流來篩選特定的對象他是有計畫性的有時候只是統戰的活動但是從統戰活動當中又去發展出他的情搜的一個網絡"},{"start":8789.126,"end":8810.231,"text":"第三個部分是針對性的那早期大概主要針對的會是軍中比較中階的軍官因為中階軍官比較會接觸到涉密的情資但是現在我們感覺到他的接觸已經開始往基層的士官兵來做接觸所以委員可能也注意到一些共諜案大概這一部分感覺上的那個越來越多"},{"start":8811.011,"end":8838.942,"text":"對 就是最近我想全民都有這種感覺啦而且很多人是涉及到一些精免資料的啦那也是請這個局長這邊再多多的這個關照這個事情有有 剛剛在辯護會有跟委員長報告也建議立法院這邊可能可以有一個法治規範來推動相關的保防還有反侵號的工作對對 因為也不只立法院啦 因為有其他人所以希望這個局長能夠多多加把勁能夠把這個地方能夠鞏固維護這個台灣的國家安全好 這是我們工作 希望有人提醒好 謝謝"},{"start":8842.901,"end":8843.789,"text":"我們現在休息六分鐘"},{"start":9281.55,"end":9308.219,"text":"愿好我们继续开会接下来我们请王定云委员好谢谢主席麻烦局长好问问早"},{"start":9310.066,"end":9335.122,"text":"好 早我今天想focus在一個案子徐春英的這個案子已經起訴那根據地檢署揭露的新聞稿跟起訴的附錄我這邊看第一個圖這個大概都從起訴書的附錄表摘出來的裡面確實是駭人聽聞包含涉犯的洗錢的金額接近三千萬元"},{"start":9336.323,"end":9355.495,"text":"包含呢自備三萬元兩張假的證明一張假的薪資轉單就可以貸款2697萬去買了一間房子自備三萬新台幣而已貸了2697萬那另外呢要透過三個政黨"},{"start":9356.826,"end":9379.86,"text":"去爭取中國人士擔任立委發展政治實質影響力另外協助中國人士取得台灣國籍不管是六改四或者一些戶籍放棄的簡化這都他接受的命令在裡面的對話內容都會看到那我這邊特別不去提哪幾個政黨我都認為被滲透的政黨也許是受害者看他的態度啦"},{"start":9380.66,"end":9409.242,"text":"那另外呢中共的官員用偽裝的偽造的理由入境長期在台灣發展組織所以這是一個不擇不扣也許起訴的條文是反滲透法但對國安的威脅它就是一個中共的網絡諜報組織我第一個先請教局長你們看徐春英這個起訴書的內容當然國安局掌握全國的情攻啦你們看到了什麼有沒有什麼該提醒國人的"},{"start":9410.046,"end":9436.905,"text":"好我想因為這案子在司法偵辦但是我早上有在跟媒體朋友說明大概我原先看到所有共諜案幾乎都是我們發動偵辦的那有事證之後再移送到包含這個對就再移送到那個司法機關來進行偵處還有進入起訴的過程所以大概整個過程我們都知道案件的內容你不便透露我的意思說像這樣的案子其實"},{"start":9438.306,"end":9467.166,"text":"讓人家很害怕他已經發展到國會裡面來了他已經發展到實質政治的組織甚至於把所有中國籍的配偶的組織網絡串起來坦白講這對這些中國籍的配偶是很不公平的他在監控他們看他們的言行有沒有符合母國的要求他們的祖國的要求可是對台灣就產生實質的民主的破口所以我說國安局在這個案例上"},{"start":9468.171,"end":9492.393,"text":"你看到是個案還是通案?我想個案值得重視那主要還是通案的部分大概中共對台的這些勤工的部署跟滲透他都是有系統性的有計畫性的有針對性的挑選特定的對象那在針對這特定對象去發展他背後的一個網絡那所以這部分這個個案顯示大概就是這樣的一個中共對台勤工的一個手段"},{"start":9493.806,"end":9523.142,"text":"陸委會的副主委梁文傑說大家應該想讀這一個起訴書但是因為起訴書目前地檢署公布的是新聞稿摘要跟一些附錄我認為官局可以建議這一個陸委會在符合法律的要求部分人士去識別化全文的PDF檔應該要提供出來我覺得這個是如果看到那個內容他的對話跟中國的壽命還有他拿到錢去做什麼事情還有"},{"start":9523.562,"end":9544.407,"text":"中國籍配偶怎麼對待中國籍配偶其實你看到的是一個不只是長臂管轄而是實質對台灣的一個破壞所以你看到這個對話內容大概是從他的腹錄摘出來的那我們看到他相關的人物像孫憲是他們的民革上海市委以及他算是統戰部的高階的人員"},{"start":9545.507,"end":9569.789,"text":"另外楊文濤是中國民政部的,其實也是官員然後呢,鍾景明是促進會的會長,這個是同案的被告他是一個兩岸婚姻協調促進會會長,有一個組織名稱在那邊那李貞秀也在那邊提到有關詢問接班可能性以及相關的事情,這都在起訴書裡面那另外有一個污點證人叫羅穎"},{"start":9571.05,"end":9594.965,"text":"那這個我不知道名字有沒有保護起來啦他是徐春英的友人所以我們看到這相關的網絡呢我們就有一個體會我們看下一張其實我個人認為被共諜滲透的其實基本上我們先看他是受害者當年的蔣介石旁邊的共諜何其多連他的打字員秘書那個Holiday英國的一個作者寫的"},{"start":9595.985,"end":9610.787,"text":"一個他被滲透的其實是非常嚴重每一次他要幹嘛中共都會先知道所以蔣介石可以說是中共滲透的受害者只是他採取那我們怎麼判斷是不是受害者呢他們甘願被他滲透 他沒有"},{"start":9611.468,"end":9635.222,"text":"他會反制他會逮捕甚至於槍決可以所以做得過頭了變白色恐怖那是另外一件事情也就是說被共諜滲透不管是歷史上的蔣介石或者國內的主要政治組織或者政府機關基本上只要你不是甘願被他滲透的都可以把它定義為受害者我認為任何政黨政治人物都一樣但是你要有作為我被滲透了"},{"start":9636.702,"end":9657.167,"text":"檢舉移送法辦建立國安法制去把他逮捕出來你對共諜的滲透深惡痛絕那這個是受害者如果被滲透了還去阻撓國安法律的嚴謹或者被滲透了還幫被抓到的人講話那這是不是受害者就未必了會進到第二種類別"},{"start":9658.587,"end":9681.646,"text":"不知情卻動手協助共諜滲透的這有點像在地協力者但是如果知情還協助共諜滲透的那你根本就是共諜本人我不知道局長對我這樣的分類看法有什麼想法對 尊重 委員有一個邏輯在尊重委員的一個分類跟看法我不要隨便說這個誰誰誰被滲透了他就是共諜 不一定因為從歷史上從蔣介石一直到現在"},{"start":9683.087,"end":9707.548,"text":"被滲透當然是敵人想要攻破的碉堡重要的是被滲透人士或組織的態度如果你被滲透了你認為應該強化應該隔絕那當然是受害者如果被滲透了還掩護他你可能是不知情的協作者如果你被滲透了發現你還幫他滲透幫他發展幫他講話維護那這可能就共諜本人了所以在這一個徐春英的案件我最後要問的一個邏輯是能夠"},{"start":9711.167,"end":9732.7,"text":"成就他的工作的就他滲透發展組織受上海那邊相關的命令甚至於地下會對兩千大概快三千萬這些過程當中能夠成就他的成績工作成績的人或政黨算是什麼角色有沒有在偵辦中"},{"start":9734.324,"end":9756.025,"text":"對我想個案我不適合公開的討論包括剛剛在機密報告當中也有委員提出一些共諜案那我在那種場合比較會多做一些說明那因為這案子已經在偵辦過程當中那大概他都還是有一個網絡相關的案官關係人那我換個方式問徐淳英的起訴書是不是案件的全貌"},{"start":9758.438,"end":9787.077,"text":"我不評論檢察官公布的一個狀況這一個部分我覺得這三種分類協力者典型的還繼續協力當然有法律問題如果是協助者知情而且協助的而且甚至於位居廟堂或者是位居高院不管什麼政黨我覺得該辦就要辦甚至該揭露就要揭露這個其實是對兩千三百萬人的生存是很重要的一件事情我最後請教一下"},{"start":9787.958,"end":9806.06,"text":"在台灣的國防預算或國防特別預算或對美軍購我推整了大概近半年來也不到半年 近四五個月中國不管朱鳳蓮 張小剛 張晗甚至習近平本人 毛寧等等他針對的發言其實不意外啦"},{"start":9806.781,"end":9824.867,"text":"中共當然反對台灣國防預算反對國防特別預算反對對美軍購每次都講一堆啦他不講他自己的國防預算每年增加7%到8兆他也不講他每天用軍事威脅台灣他卻指著台灣說你要武裝自己這裡不對那裡不對就是"},{"start":9825.467,"end":9841.119,"text":"流氓在恐嚇別人刀槍都握在手上然後防衛自己的人拿起盾牌說你武裝自己呢什麼以武謀獨啊什麼的他的反對態度其實非常明確不意外也不是新聞我要請教局長了"},{"start":9842,"end":9858.673,"text":"就你們目前掌握中共如何遂行他的反對他反對嘛他反對台灣最好你都沒有國防預算嘛國防特別預算越少越好最好沒有嘛對美軍共每次都反對嘛還制裁要對台軍售的那些企業或者是實體好那我現在請問中國從口頭的反對"},{"start":9866.019,"end":9886.304,"text":"到實質運作讓他這樣的意志可以遂行他有沒有具體的執行的策略有有有這部分剛如美林委員也有在提問那我大概的說明就是說中共對台的政策大概一般都是合戰兩手一方面透過軍事的施壓來說造兵戰的氣氛讓台灣民眾心裡感到恐慌"},{"start":9886.744,"end":9900.056,"text":"但另外一方面要透過一些兩岸的一些交流交往來推宣他所謂中國主導的兩岸和平以及這個中國主導兩岸和平所外溢出來的所謂的和平紅利來進行一些撕毀那用這個來鬆動那台灣對於軍購案的支持"},{"start":9902.938,"end":9926.843,"text":"那另外也利用這樣子所謂兩岸存在這種合同的聲音來弱化美國對於台議題的介入跟立場所以它有兩個目的一個是分化台灣內部那一個是分化台美的合作那這部分我想我們現在又在討論這個國防預算的部分那中共這一方面的操作手法甚至看起來有比較加強一些操作那你們有沒有應對的方法"},{"start":9927.998,"end":9944.311,"text":"你讓情報掌握是一件事情嘛那你也講得很客氣嘛其實他們的反對在台灣他遂行的方法很多種啦民眾也都看得很清楚那如果踩到法律的紅線那是歸法律出來但在政治上的運作有沒有應對的方式"},{"start":9944.751,"end":9969.454,"text":"對 基本上我們特別在揭露的是中共對台的統戰的策略跟手法那剛剛在跟委員說明的也是把重點放在這個部分那來讓大家知道說我們可能國人在進行兩岸交流過程當中可能要注意到中共的這些推動交流過程背後還是有一個政治上跟統戰上的一個我最後請問你好 蒙哥馬利來台灣參加那個陳冠廷的研討會嘛"},{"start":9970.535,"end":9987.222,"text":"那他有提到如果持續阻擋這樣的國防預算不管特別預算或國防預算對川普政府來講他只看結果他可能會有一個collective就是他會有一個綜合性的打擊等於對台灣的處罰你自己都不重視自己的安全了"},{"start":9988.591,"end":10007.224,"text":"你展現態度是這樣子那對川普政府來講他要做取捨或者做所謂的懲罰你們掌握的情報是什麼對這部分主要是我們在夜報過程當中有提到美國現在強調的還是以實力來追求和平所以也不斷的在鼓勵各個區域我們加強國防的投資那建構起"},{"start":10008.785,"end":10036.485,"text":"台灣國內持續被杯葛被弱化那你假如說台灣自己在這個部分比較沒有一些積極的作為的話那你當然就會弱化了人家願意來支持台灣的一個基本的立場那再邀請台灣參加雙多邊的一些軍事或安保合作議題的話也比較會質疑台灣在自己努力所投資的這個國防預算的部分那可能沒有達到大家的一個期待所以會造成區域聯防會有一個破口變成安全網絡的一個破口這個等於是對國家全體人民的懲罰"},{"start":10037.265,"end":10063.562,"text":"那對於阻撓的實體它本身會做什麼樣的動作嗎?有沒有消息?這個部分基本上川普政府還是不斷地強調對台軍售是他們一貫的一個政策那我應該也注意到在去年年底所宣布的那個對台軍售案應該是史上最高後續還會有所以美方是一直希望台灣在這個部分能夠加強對自己的國防投資你提到後續還會有是before或after?"},{"start":10064.953,"end":10088.721,"text":"對啊 那時間上當然就看台美溝通的結果跟後續的一個規劃那我剛剛也跟其他委員在做說明就今年來講 包括日本國防預算增加3.7% 韓國增加7%菲律賓增加14%那大概都有呼應到川普政府這種以實力追求和平的一個基本的調戲好 時間關係我們其他部分我們可以私下交流好 謝謝局長謝謝王定一委員"},{"start":10104.517,"end":10114.077,"text":"好 接下來進行詢答的是陳冠廷委員的公開的部分好 謝謝主席 我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":10123.603,"end":10140.855,"text":"其實明天是我們針對國防的特別條例有朝野協商那在朝野協商部分當然有跟秦箏相關的部分因為這次的國防特別條例也都有所以這也跟國安局的業務是相關那我在這邊是很誠摯的希望我們所有在野黨的委員們能夠一同來參與這樣子的討論就算"},{"start":10143.567,"end":10159.247,"text":"這一次的協商沒有共識但下一次我們可以慢慢的一起摸索出對國家有幫助的道路所以我在這邊還是誠摯的呼籲特別是我們年輕的這個在野黨的委員們我相信他們也很願意跟我們來做討論那也是很誠摯的希望明天有這個機會"},{"start":10160.208,"end":10174.329,"text":"那再來想要請教一下這個局長關於政協會的部分在前夕政協會前夕中共突然有這個突破突然突然設定了這一個無限高的禁飛區40天你有沒有得到政官的資訊你覺得這是持續性作戰戰備的態勢嗎"},{"start":10176.371,"end":10188.258,"text":"這次劃設的空域保留區,大概是在江浙外海的空域時間是3月28日到5月6日我們注意到劃設有五個區塊,範圍蠻大的,時間也蠻長的判斷在軍事上可能有點用來反制外國的軍機在該空域的活動狀況"},{"start":10196.743,"end":10214.468,"text":"當然外國有能力軍機在當地活動主要還是以美國為主另外在政治上因為時間剛好截止到川習會的前一個禮拜所以也有可能在這段時間來測試跟試探美國在相關空域活動的一個狀況也做一些政治上的一個"},{"start":10215.508,"end":10242.369,"text":"試水溫跟試碳好 謝謝局長那第二個問題就是剛才我們不斷地在討論的關於就是供電案很多不管是國會的有些是可能是在國會的助理有些可能是在行政的機關甚至是最高的機關那都有那我們一直想問的是說有沒有機會讓助理能夠有機會能夠接受這個安全查核但是需要有法源那這個法源的部分我們其實有提出的這個國家機密"},{"start":10243.83,"end":10266.361,"text":"保護法第14條的修正草案在裡面我還是要強調我們還是希望說由行政院院板提出來一個跨部會的一個條例因為我們自己思考的方式可能沒有那麼完整其實我們有邀請法規局立法院的法規局也來去做相關的討論它不是只有政府人員"},{"start":10267.401,"end":10287.894,"text":"它已經擴大到約聘人員到這個國防的廠商廠商的承包人員到任何涉密的人員一般民眾它不是要傷害人民的權利而是說如果你想要接觸這些機密你就先要得到這些核可所以它是權利而不是義務而不是傷害到人民的這些權利"},{"start":10288.474,"end":10311.335,"text":"這個有點不太一樣的為什麼說美國他們把拿到安全合格視為是甚至是一種榮譽嘛就代表說你的忠誠有被合格了那你的財務紀錄你的犯罪紀錄你的個人的等等的這些存活的紀錄都是經過合格的所以我也看到我之前有問說這個國安局針對這些在場區你們國安局內如果有一些設施維護的話"},{"start":10312.256,"end":10329.156,"text":"那這些進入營區的廠商人員是不是要經過安全查核那你們的回覆說明是可以的那這些人他既不是公務員他不是公務員的身份但他可以接受查核所以我認為是說最快的方法是思考到底有沒有哪些行政命令可以讓"},{"start":10330.057,"end":10344.31,"text":"包含像我們國會有一些志願想要接受安全查核因為他可能會接觸到一些機密的人能夠接受這樣子的查核這才可以避免說每次只要亦有相關的這個供點案件的話我們朝野就是互相指責你看你旁邊有"},{"start":10345.651,"end":10372.201,"text":"當然我也會做這是政治上的這個批判因為我認為說如果經過了三年四年五年六年那我們的這個各個的行政機關都已經有被滲透的跡象的話那我們除了法律上面的修法可能要曠日廢時之外有沒有可能在行政命令上面去思考一下去尋找一下有沒有已經可以的法源你們這邊就有啦你們有法源依據所以你們可以讓進來廠商的必須要接受"},{"start":10372.901,"end":10375.922,"text":"對這部分剛剛也在討論當中有去這樣的建議就是說只要立法院關切這個問題的話還是要有一個法制或是規範"},{"start":10389.969,"end":10417.962,"text":"那讓其他的行政部門可以能夠到立法院來進行相關的不是只有立法院我們現在講的是所有的院會一般民眾也都會跟這個政府的採購等等都會有關係那我說能不能提出一個院版那我當然知道說剛才君老師尊重立法院說這個可能會影響到立法院的這些人士那這樣不是 不是針對立法院而是一個普遍性的原則也包含立法院這個普遍性的原則也包含立法院不是針對立法院包含立法院"},{"start":10418.442,"end":10435.115,"text":"因為我們看到其實很多學術單位也會有啊接觸到基民基訓的也會有但假如是行政院相關的行政規範的話他沒有辦法延伸到沒有沒有我現在講說院版的修法的修法的好不好提出院版的修法行政秘密可能沒有辦法但是院版的修法"},{"start":10436.196,"end":10458.622,"text":"這個提出來我們立法院就可以來去審議我們立法院參與的話就沒有侵害到立法院的問題就是我們要參與審議因為這部分管局有些作業的機制我們再跟院方來討論看怎麼樣把現在的經驗做一些經驗的分享因為這個東西會層次不窮那我們都可能會遇到周遭我們遇到的人那麼多有有有 很多委員都在提醒這一點好不好好 盡快一下 好 謝謝好 謝謝 兩位請回"},{"start":10470.123,"end":10482.794,"text":"好 謝謝那我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席先請那個國防部政治作戰局使局長請局長"},{"start":10492.827,"end":10507.908,"text":"局長午安今天針對這個國軍官兵的急難貸款跟你做一下討論為什麼從這樣子的話題來切入呢因為大家都講這段時間發生的部分的所謂的國安破口其實是來自於"},{"start":10508.708,"end":10529.294,"text":"這個部分的國軍官兵可能有經濟上的困難跟需求嘛那被這個老共逮到了空子他就用這個示意小惠用利用的這個方式然後要交換出賣國家機密嘛這因為這個很小條的東西然後造成情報的流失跟機密的外洩這我想對於我們國家安全來講當然是得不償失嘛那我想這除了"},{"start":10531.134,"end":10559.12,"text":"這個該懲治的要懲治該防堵的要防堵之外我們也要思考一下怎麼樣從源頭解決這個問題所以今天從這個角度來切入這時候國安局的報告裡面有講就是說用網路平台為媒介利誘尋求借貸的現退役軍人以稅刑交付機敏資訊換取資金以及拍攝效忠影片錄音檔事業書等等任務就有58人現退役軍人數32人佔比55%所以我想這是一個問題那當然這個政戰局也提出了一些方案"},{"start":10559.76,"end":10584.673,"text":"從今年的1月1號開始開辦國軍官兵的集單貸款也就是說我因應這個事國軍確實會有一些人經濟上的困難或短期的需求比照公教的方式做了一些這個制度上的設計去避免說因為小的經濟困難然後變找地下錢莊然後越滾越大然後被迫走投無路去處理這個事情所以現在是不管志願役、義務役都可以身帶然後10萬元以下免保人等等"},{"start":10585.413,"end":10608.28,"text":"那如果沒有辦法服役者當然你就要離英錢繳清嘛這些狀況大概是這樣但我今天要提一個事情就是國防部的版本裡面這個國軍官兵的急難貸款裡面的配套裡面有一個剩餘役期啊如果沒有到六個月他沒有辦法就使用這樣子的一個政策的優惠這個有沒有為德不足之處啊這個局長要不要回答一下"},{"start":10609.731,"end":10624.859,"text":"謝委員有關於現在集蛋貸款的部分主要我們還是得考慮到我們現在跟銀行的一個合作的一個機制那當然我們還是要考慮他還款的能力這是第一個"},{"start":10625.339,"end":10651.905,"text":"第二個我們針對國軍官兵他的財務失衡的一個狀況所以我們不僅僅是針對他財務可能有問題的一個情形我們另外也針對他財務失衡的狀況我們各級部隊都會有所掌握掌握之後我們了解他的一個原因除了跟他本人了解之外我們也透過家訪的方式了解他財務失衡的一個狀況"},{"start":10653.439,"end":10668.47,"text":"這些都是你現在在做的事嘛 是我今天就談為什麼我特別去提疫情不足六個月這件事情我為什麼會講說它叫違德不足原因是這樣嘛我想當初提這個東西除了照顧國軍之外也要防堵破口嘛但現在如果是剩餘疫情不足六個月的人不能身帶的話"},{"start":10669.23,"end":10691.246,"text":"我覺得它會形成所謂的雙重風險第一重我六個月之後我就要退役了我沒有要在國軍裡面發展等等我就沒有你講比較難聽一點可能就沒有包袱了嘛對不對我去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情大概也比較不會有顧忌對不對因為我沒有要繼續走這條路要繼續發展加上我如果真的遇到經濟困難我剛好又被這個六個月的條款排除在外經濟困難又沒有辦法解決"},{"start":10691.846,"end":10720.725,"text":"我覺得就會形成所謂的雙重風險就讓這一群人反而變成更容易被滲透的對象當然我們都希望不要發生這個事但他難免有可能有這樣的一個狀況那我有看到嘛因為我們的貸款的這個款源我們也有提撥相關的基金嘛讓銀行有更大的空間去擔保等等另外就我們國軍應該退退之後六個月退退理論上應該會有退五金嘛會有一些相關的這樣東西這能不能做一個綜合的考量然後把這個這個這個規範稍微放寬不要變得為得不足"},{"start":10722.006,"end":10739.695,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教我想第一步我們先做到可以先解決官兵急難能夠有可以跟銀行借一筆錢出來先解決眼前的問題那我想委員剛剛提到這第二步也許我們在第一步檢討完了之後我們可以做進一步的一個討論"},{"start":10740.856,"end":10769.711,"text":"好 這有用開放的心態來看這件事情所以其實當然可以接受那就希望在一段時間你當然可以設定一段時間但我也要提醒我剛剛特別提這一段就是因為有雙重風險的問題如果在這一段你第一階段的事情的時候請你特別針對這個六個月以前的你可能要花更多的心力去了解那如果說制度修正比較有效率那就趕快來做制度的修正這本席給偵探局的這樣一個建議希望大家可以把這個破口把它堵起來好 謝謝偵探局長請回謝謝委員長那請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":10779.512,"end":10798.369,"text":"劉委員長局長你好今天討論一下維安相關的現在大家都針對比如說政府總統或者委員院長等等一些維安尤其是他們是政治人物難免出席群眾場合等等現在大家擔心比如說無人機它會不會是一個新的維安上的威脅或者是一個破口"},{"start":10798.849,"end":10827.632,"text":"那過去的時候我們要針對這種無人機的騷擾也好徵收也好有不同的反制手段比如說軟殺也就是用干擾的方式我讓你飛不起來我讓你落地那硬殺我當然就直接擊墜嘛大概是這樣子的兩個邏輯那如果是考量維安大部分應該不會在大庭廣眾面前把無人機擊落恐怕實務效果比較難處理所以大部分從維安的角度出發大家都採取訊號干擾的這樣的一個方式來處理沒有錯吧對目前是這樣目前是這樣好那現在"},{"start":10828.473,"end":10847.867,"text":"因為無人機的這個技術一直在更新啦那現在本期有了解到比如說在烏克蘭的戰場上出現的光纖無人機就看起來是無線 它其實是有線的嘛因為以前是無線訊號我只要打斷了無線訊號無人機它當然就必須要降落嘛或者是掉下來等等那現在的光纖無人機而且實體的 有線的而且距離好像還蠻長的這個長達"},{"start":10850.949,"end":10873.774,"text":"數十公里 當然是媒體報導 姑且引用之那它優勢是什麼 它抗電子干擾我的軟砂效果可能會失效 然後它還不以前訊號不好 畫面傳不回來 塗床等等會有問題 現在沒有嘛 那光纖好像也不是特別特別難的技術啦也就是說這光纖無人機啊 已經出現 甚至我們自己國內這因應國防等等 也都有開始進行一些採購那現在"},{"start":10876.81,"end":10898.533,"text":"這樣的狀況在上一次國安局我們在內政委會以前開過會在討論治安狀況跟強化維安的時候有講就我們針對無人機的徵收干擾等等我們還是用採購無人機干擾槍的方式來做處理那麼因應不依靠這種遙控不依靠這種訊號的所謂的光纖無人機現在國安局有沒有針對這樣的可能性進行一些研討或者是提出新的反制措施"},{"start":10899.894,"end":10913.869,"text":"謝謝劉委員的提醒跟關注這個涉及到元首維安的議題因為中共也有可能在對台的一個可能軍事的一個行動當中也會不排除有這種所謂的斬首的行動那當然這要"},{"start":10914.389,"end":10936.396,"text":"分不同的一個場景在平時就像我們在內政委員會跟委員報告說明的平時可能重視的是對於商規無人機這種訊號的干擾或迫降讓他回到原地那但是到了比較國家比較緊急的時候那可能我們要啟動的是針對軍規的無人機他可能發動了相關的攻擊那所以這部分可能除了我們的"},{"start":10937.236,"end":10959.498,"text":"國安局的特勤中心以外我們要結合到國防部這邊整體的防空的位數那透過郭城的截擊來避免這些無人機迫近到元首的所在地活動的地點而造成對元首有危害所以這部分我們是有一些配置的當然你講的軍規當然是在有衝突的情況之下戰爭的時候那當然就是通通擊落嘛這沒有什麼好講但我的意思是說這些"},{"start":10960.459,"end":10986.912,"text":"光纖無人機它有沒有可能它是軟性的方式我可能只是來蒐集情報偷拍有的沒的被這樣子應用的時候它就比較尷尬因為你講比如說在軍事要塞關鍵基礎設施那就很好處理就極弱也沒有關係但是比如說維安人很多的時候它就有一些狀況那我希望我今天只是提醒就是國安局也好國防部也好針對這種光纖無人機它如果被用在這種軟性的群眾場合的時候可能要提早做一下部署"},{"start":10987.632,"end":11010.531,"text":"怎麼針對這種光纖無人機也要進行反制的措施去確保大家的安全 可以嗎可以 這部分有在評估一些新的因應的方式那我們跟國防部 縣指部這邊大概都有做一些專欄的討論好 那如果討論有一些明確的進展的時候也要盡快的跟國會來報告讓我們去了解這些進展 可以嗎好 謝謝牛委員好 謝謝辛苦了好 謝謝牛許庭委員"},{"start":11011.252,"end":11037.851,"text":"因為這個刑事案件跟財務紀錄的瑕疵也可能會讓受查核者失去安全核可的資格在美國是這樣所以如果院版的這個安全查核如果可以提出來也包含這個部分的話我覺得會更加完整那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員好主席謝謝麻煩請我們國安局蔡局長我們請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":11044.911,"end":11071.106,"text":"謝謝主席 黃委員好好 局長好 局長本席引用一個委員的質詢我幾乎沒有引用過但這個我覺得是很重要的國安議題林俊憲委員在上禮拜他質詢的時候指出他說跟賴清德總統去亞太球場看棒球比賽整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機收訊連總統隨行助理手機都沒訊號那會不會造成是一個失聯的狀態"},{"start":11072.455,"end":11093.413,"text":"我覺得這相對來講嚴重喔所以說我想先確認一下說三四個小時賴清德總統到亞太球場看球有沒有沒有收訊因為這是林俊憲委員他直接點名整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機訊號然後他還特別舔到說連總統的隨行助理手機都沒訊號一直到總統離開總統車隊上車在室外手機還沒有訊號"},{"start":11099.518,"end":11127.399,"text":"嚴不嚴重我剛有瞭解一下我們在現場並沒有開遮屏器故意去進行通訊的干擾沒有那第二個是我們的瞭解是現場的收訊的條件比較不好可能因為人比較多人多嘛因為兩萬五千人在那邊但重點好重點是局長有沒有聽到重點重點就是總統在一個地點如果說連他的隨戶連他的隨行都沒有訊號那真的發生事情"},{"start":11128.239,"end":11147.291,"text":"怎麼聯繫委員放心啦因為我們的我沒有辦法放心是因為林俊憲委員講出一個大白話讓我們覺得說突然間總統在一個沒有收訊的地方三四個小時那結果你現在跟我講說委員放心我不知道我要怎麼放心我要講的放心是我們特勤委員都還有其他的通訊裝備會掌握現場的狀況來對這就是本席想要詢問的"},{"start":11148.271,"end":11175.276,"text":"就是說其實我們現在看到連新聞媒體記者他們現在開直播都會背一個叫5G包啊那某種程度上它就是一個加強訊號那本席要講的是說現在總統的危安因為這個從這件事情看得出來我覺得這跟總統過去到現在他的一個出席的場合有很大的關係為什麼我們知道總統要出席一個場合事先會先有國安人員或是說相關的危安人員先去現場場刊"},{"start":11176.556,"end":11196.45,"text":"第二 那一個現場到底是什麼樣的情況場刊的時候跟現場的狀況可能不一定一樣因為場刊的時候沒有兩萬五千人的觀眾但突然間在那邊有兩萬五千人的觀眾的時候那可能相對來講這些收訊以及最重要是如果說真的發生什麼危難的時候怎麼樣的逃脫路線 怎麼樣的路線都要規劃"},{"start":11197.831,"end":11219.783,"text":"是 所以本席現在在請教 局長 針對這一個議題跟這一個事件來講有沒有考慮未來總統的維安人員出去的時候至少車上或說相關的配備有增加 譬如說5G包或說相關的通訊設備 有有有以及 好 以及剛剛牛許廷委員所講到的無人機的攻擊"},{"start":11220.863,"end":11245.914,"text":"十年前有一部電影美國白宮拍那個攻擊白宮我想第三集你可以特別回去看一下他就講的是說美國總統被無人機攻擊而且他一次用風群的無人機那這已經是十年前好萊塢拍的影片本席現在不是危言聳聽但本席跟我們所有國人都一樣既然中華民國總統代表中華民國我絕對不可能"},{"start":11247.106,"end":11272.512,"text":"讓我們的總統放在任何的危險的一個狀況也因此國安局的任務跟責任就是要確保總統安全以及他的通訊是良好的美國總統他的野獸那個專車啊上面甚至還有美國總統的血液這個同類型的血或是說相關的飛彈設施怎麼干擾設備那就是防止說有任何的情況發生的時候第一時間總統可以獲得最好的醫療救護"},{"start":11273.792,"end":11290.865,"text":"所以我現在拉回來還是一樣針對這個事件有沒有考慮未來來做一些調整或是說更精進的方法請說明好謝謝委員的關心那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下不好意思有點插話那主要的原因是要跟委員說明的是把安全做好最重要"},{"start":11291.325,"end":11317.311,"text":"那主要的原因是我們特勤這邊他有其他的通訊裝備以避免大家公用的這些通訊的頻段出現一些被干擾的狀況這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分的說明是剛剛牛許廷委員也有提到了假如遇到中共的這種無人機不管是風群或軍規無人機的攻擊有沒有一些因應的做法那這部分假如是涉及到比較國家緊急情況的時候會讓中共的無人機能夠領導"},{"start":11318.391,"end":11347.991,"text":"接近到我們的相關空域的話那我們就會啟動我們相關軍事的我修正一下我討論的跟這個比較不一樣我現在講的是說總統即便是在一個正常的活動出席在我們國內你剛剛講到中共可能是直接就是大規模但已經變成是軍力半台的層級但是本席現在講的比較是譬如說像那一天亞太球場開幕他可能會有無人機那如果說現場有民用無人機或說這個廠商業者的無人機但是他"},{"start":11348.411,"end":11361.573,"text":"突然間我們不知道是什麼狀況突然間他往總統靠近那是不是也應該要有必要的防護措施以及必要的譬如說是電子槍干擾器來去做相關的防範我覺得這一些部分是"},{"start":11362.759,"end":11389.622,"text":"因為這涉及可能是相關國安機密但本席要再一次提醒是我們從林俊憲委員的質詢裡面看到一個大白話是如果說連總統旁邊的助理都可以三四個小時沒有收訊即便你剛剛講的是說有特殊的管道但特殊管道跟特殊管道之間可能極少數的連結但如果今天總統是發生一個什麼樣的事情而需要趕快讓第一時間社會大眾知道"},{"start":11390.558,"end":11401.461,"text":"安全無虞或說要有什麼樣的聯繫方式的話我覺得相關的5G訊號還是必要的所以這也是為什麼我在提醒說連民間都已經有這樣的一個使用"},{"start":11402.657,"end":11423.969,"text":"不增加困擾的情況下但是能夠多增加安全的保障即便啊今天發生什麼事情管局局長要跟總統直接做報告你會採取的方式我相信最快的方式還是用手機或是說用相關的一個系統來去跟總統旁邊的秘書來做聯繫這最快嘛所以一定要確保這樣的一個通訊是暢通無語的是吧"},{"start":11424.549,"end":11444.584,"text":"對 這通訊韌性我們一直都有在注意那剛剛委員提到的通訊韌性問題以外還有涉及到無人機的突襲在成品的時候那這部分我們大概在總統地點的場所多部署一些反無人機的一些干擾的設備那也有一些比較高位置的一些部署來做相關的預警所以這是兩件"},{"start":11447.014,"end":11462.512,"text":"本席提出來的作為兩個議題不要再讓我們看到說連執政黨委員都講一個大白話說三四個小時失去通訊我覺得這是一個非常令人捏麻冷汗的事情好不好好感謝謝謝好我們謝謝黃委員我們接下來邀請鍾嘉斌委員謝謝"},{"start":11471.346,"end":11481.273,"text":"主席 在場委員 先進電視的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長跟法務部調查局的陳局長我們請蔡局長跟陳局長"},{"start":11484.229,"end":11503.415,"text":"好 謝謝主席 周委員長兩位局長好 共諜滲透管道樣太多樣防滲透 國安檢調需跟上最近網路上流行一個梗圖跟笑話他說如果共諜潛伏在民進黨立委身邊 那叫共諜如果潛伏在在野黨 那叫做不分區跟黨主席你覺得好笑嗎"},{"start":11504.375,"end":11526.305,"text":"我覺得一點都不好笑不過呢我覺得這可能反映出社會對於國會是否可能遭到滲透的一個關心我們往下看其實不是只有台灣各國的國會政府單位都會有他們間諜或者說共諜滲透的情況我們看到美國的聯儲它的共諜曝光了英國國會也有共諜那麼官員證實說這是中國是敵人"},{"start":11529.466,"end":11558.796,"text":"德國逮捕一名歐盟議會的工作人員指控他為中國從事間諜活動請問國安局對於這些中國或者說境外敵對勢力在其他國家國會的滲透狀況有所掌握嗎有 這也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資跟經驗的一個重要的議題啦因為德國現在遭受到中國這種勤工的一個滲透越來越嚴厲那所以大家都有交換一些經驗好 但是因為我本身不是這個專業我們只會從電影跟小說上去瞭解往下看"},{"start":11559.236,"end":11588.391,"text":"譬如說供鐵的滲透樣帶有什麼用人員滲透譬如說我們的工作同仁周邊是不是有人去接近他請他帶走機密或者說利用這些工作人員的不正當關係去威脅他或者說利用政治獻金去提供要求對價來影響決策請問關於這些的間諜行動國安局有去做一些初步的了解跟掌握嗎或者進一步我要請教一下陳局長那如何防堵來先請教蔡局長"},{"start":11589.031,"end":11612.678,"text":"我想基本上委員現在看到所有的共諜案都是我們的系統啟動正辦的才移送到司法機關來進行查處這是大概第一點說明那第二點說明是針對共諜的滲透的手法它非常的多元這也是為什麼我們在去年有公布共諜滲透的一個手法樣態的專題報告主要的目的就是希望國人能夠更了解到中共滲透的手法畢竟它滲透的對象就是我們的公開的社會"},{"start":11612.978,"end":11641.156,"text":"那因為國安局的執事是情報跟反滲透可是陳局長不一樣調查局要做偵辦對不對陳局長請過來來陳局長那你們也會去針對國安局所掌握的這些樣態也開始去進行反滲透的一些部限去調查去了解嗎我們會針對所有各方來的情資然後做那個跟案件有關的這些調查那主要就是focus在我們法辦的各個構成要件的面向"},{"start":11643.777,"end":11663.781,"text":"譬如說你們調查局聯絡國會聯絡人偶爾來中嘉賓的國會辦公室看一看有沒有共諜潛伏是這樣嗎?不會這樣子當然也不會你們的調查的時候一定不是這麼的粗糙但是我的意思是說雖然我們蔡局長說到過去有公布這些樣態但是國會我們自己本身我們也提高警覺但是我們不曉得該如何做"},{"start":11664.341,"end":11690.702,"text":"但是我們又不能請我們的監督對象比如我們監督行政院我不能請證書來給我指導啊我不能請調查局來給我指導啊為什麼因為你是我們的行政上的督導對象是那我們國會要如何防範自己被滲透呢這個我是一個難題蔡局長是不是可以請你們回去去反映一下有沒有可能研究出一套方法提供適當的方式提供過來其實我個人認為啊公民團體第三方"},{"start":11694.105,"end":11712.084,"text":"是比較公正客觀他可以來跟國會跟國會的立法委員我們來共同合作辦論壇辦研討會研擬這些方向必要的時候我們透過自己的立法法制化這樣子來落實我們國會自己我們的一個防滲透的一個處置您覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":11712.941,"end":11726.94,"text":"我想這一部分剛剛委員也有一些意見我們有做一些想法的交流我想第一部分還是立法院這邊要有一些法治的規範那相關的行政單位比如說行政部門現在是由調查局來進行人員的安查"},{"start":11727.841,"end":11748.878,"text":"行政部門可是立法院 假如你沒有這個規範的話行政部門很難進來做相關的安查這在第一點那第二點是相關的保防的宣教我們也很樂意來提供必要的一個協助那還是要有一些立法院的規範才有辦法讓所有的職工或助理來參加這樣的一個宣教而不是不定期的這種宣教因為人員是不斷的在流動的"},{"start":11749.338,"end":11769.473,"text":"第三個是假如委員辦公室有特別關注這樣的問題的話那我們也曾經提供一些保防或反情報要注意的事項給其他的委員參考包括陳冠廷委員、陳俊宇委員跟林俊憲委員所以委員辦公室有需要的話我們可以在沒有法治規範之前先提供一些資訊給委員來討論好 謝謝最後的兩個結論很快的結束就是就目前共諜深特政府機關跟國會的樣態"},{"start":11770.774,"end":11783.223,"text":"我希望你們有準備好的資料可以提供給我們參考另外國安局的掌握情況如何系統上如何因應的對策您剛也提到了國會要加強自我的強化立法希望這樣的對策也可以提供給我們那在這裡有公開的請求我們辦公室非常關注這個重要性絕對不亞於職場霸凌跟職場性騷擾"},{"start":11790.788,"end":11815.925,"text":"一定要相同的程度來嚴正以待,你同意嗎?對,我認為要透過法治化的方式來處理這個問題因為中共的滲透是全面性的跟計畫性的好,謝謝,謝謝兩位局長,謝謝好,謝謝中委員,謝謝主席謝謝中委員,那其實我們有提出回應中委員他其實我們有提出國家經濟保護法第14條修正草案就是有包含中委員的關心的這個議題可是之前調查局跟我們說你們會用行政命令擴大"},{"start":11817.066,"end":11842.786,"text":"這個核查人員 所以這個東西 這個草案還是一直被擱置著所以這個部分我還是先回應一下接下來我們邀請李坤澄委員好 謝謝主席我們請蔡局長我們請蔡局長"},{"start":11848.962,"end":11864.692,"text":"好 謝主席 李文豪局長好 辛苦了那跟這個局長來談一下這個徐春毅這個案子因為徐春毅現在已經被起訴了那從這個起訴書的這個內容裡面這個或是在新聞媒體上面有披露的部分那我們可以發現說這個"},{"start":11866.073,"end":11885.726,"text":"徐春英他這個案子是一個複合性的滲透到台灣來他先用結婚的模式以中配的身份取得中華民國的身份證取得身份證之後他掩護中共的官員假借各種名義協助這些官員規避審查進入台灣還有地下會隊還有基層社會的滲透拉攏在台灣的"},{"start":11893.592,"end":11913.895,"text":"部分的中配然後甚至這個參與的這個政治的活動那我想請問一下這一個局長徐春英的這個案例是不是表示說這個中共因為過去你們這個國安局有一些滲透到台灣的一些一些圖記跟模式那是不是這個案子就是說他已經滲透到我們政黨的內部"},{"start":11915.55,"end":11934.915,"text":"對 因為我們對於中共對台的一個滲透的手法樣態那有不定期的對外發布一些報告來讓社會大眾更了解相關的狀況能夠提高警覺那就個案的部分就國安案件大概都是我們的國安情報系統來發動立案的那有市政之後再交給"},{"start":11936.615,"end":11951.161,"text":"檢方來進行偵辦的那委員剛剛所提到這個例子也不例外所以那整個過程當中都有在注意一些發展的網絡以及中共所定特定的對象還有他的一些金流人流發展的一個脈絡這部分我們都有掌握"},{"start":11952.821,"end":11980.231,"text":"凸顯了幾個問題啦那第一個就是說我就說這個中共的這個統戰的模式是伸到這個政黨裡面來那現在就是說看政黨怎麼去做處理嘛因為不是只有民眾黨他可能也到國民黨也有可能到民進黨那就看各個政黨怎麼去配合這個目前的這個不論是反滲透法或是國安法來做處理嘛那就這部分來講徐崔寧的這部分來講那您認為目前這個中共他的這一個統戰的這一個"},{"start":11983.521,"end":11988.47,"text":"這隻手伸到政黨裡面的情況嚴不嚴重有這樣的狀況那嚴重嗎"},{"start":11992.901,"end":12016.855,"text":"因為它有涉及到一些不同的案子啦那這個案子因為最近才被起訴引起社會的關注那確實中共接觸的對象有特定的族群那也有特定的政治團體那他們都會部署相關的人脈的網絡來進行接觸那也透過一些兩岸的交流那加強一些相關的一個互動那發揮一些影響力"},{"start":12017.876,"end":12044.604,"text":"那另外一個就是說他所接觸的對象比如說像孫憲或是楊文濤那他們也常常來就利用各種名義來到台灣來那這個是我們國安單位是在起訴這個就是說大概是哪個時候知道說他們其實已經在台灣趴趴走一段時間因為這個時間很長那我們處理這些案件的時間也非常的長我也可以跟委員這樣講"},{"start":12045.86,"end":12068.389,"text":"所以其實也都有做掌握就對了就我們來看啦 因為我們不知道說你們知道的時間有多長但是我們認為說 那這麼長的時間裡面那到底我們國內的 不論是國安局 調查局或是我們刑事局這方面 警政署這方面知不知道這些人的行蹤 或是說這些人來台灣做什麼"},{"start":12070.024,"end":12097.752,"text":"檢方能夠有這些起訴的相關的事證這是經過長期的部署才有這樣的結果我只能跟委員說明的是時間非常的長經過好幾年經過好幾年而且相關的人員我剛在跟林楚英委員做說明那他們在進來之後我們都有我們相關的部署那才能夠辦法有一個比較完整的資訊那讓違法的要件比較能夠成立那送到檢方正辦的時候才比較能夠彙整相關的一個事證來進行必要的法條的"},{"start":12098.232,"end":12107.766,"text":"因為這對於台灣人來講就覺得說那我們希望說政府是知道這些事情而且也是採取行動的那如果按照局長這樣講其實就是說整個"},{"start":12109.444,"end":12131.334,"text":"這個部件的這個時間當然當然因為這是我們在我們的義務報告特別有提到的我們國安情報單位檢調單位軍中保防單位我們是有一個完整的系統在處理這些共諜案的就是說當然不至於是說我們故意要這個放長線釣大魚但是我們的確有知道說他們在台灣的行動包含說這個見了誰做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":12132.294,"end":12156.326,"text":"這些市政不會是來一次入境之後就收集到了委員只要仔細看起訴書那是非常漫長的時間今年累月的累積的一些市政的狀況好那最後一個問題就是年底的這個大選這個三合一的選舉那這個在國安九合一對啊有的我們是三合一有的是九合一那國安局這邊"},{"start":12157.353,"end":12176.468,"text":"對於這個中共他們要利用這一個這次年底的選舉他們有可能會介入一定會介入不是有可能然後介入的模式也很多那有大概做了哪一些可以公開講的東西嗎這部分我們因為在今年的二月我們區裡面就成立一個針對今年九合一選舉的一個查查的專案機制"},{"start":12177.529,"end":12200.478,"text":"那啟動這樣的機制的話我們會針對國安情報機關來做必要的任務分工那今天國安情報機關的首長也幾乎都在現場那幾個重點的工作第一個是包括有沒有一些為異常的金流或是進行一些線上博弈或一些地下賭盤的操作來借選那另外也包括到有沒有一些背景比較異常的人士入境到台灣來"},{"start":12201.078,"end":12216.717,"text":"那這部分跟移民署也都有相關的專欄來做聯審的機制那進來之後 假如有違常的狀況的話那我們也會有的 假如是違法的話就會立刻驅逐出境那有的是會列入為下次要來台灣的一個禁止的名單"},{"start":12217.578,"end":12238.222,"text":"那另外可能在借權過程當中我們也特別著重到認知作戰爭議訊息的操作那這部分我們最近才啟動一個機制一個部分是透過平台業者去下架他有問題的貼文那另外一部分我們機制剛成立是我們有去封鎖境外的IP他只要傳散爭議訊息的話我們直接把境外IP封鎖掉"},{"start":12238.522,"end":12259.071,"text":"那這是最近才成立的機制那法規部分經過幾個月的討論也都非常地完備那再來就是要注意到有沒有一些包括槍械或是黑道的活動那會去干擾到選舉的一個正常的進行那這部分是跟檢政署張署長這邊我們都有討論都有一個專案在處理所以就"},{"start":12264.235,"end":12280.98,"text":"所以我們必須要透過相關的一個專案動員我們的整個國安情治機關可能我們這一場的國安情治機關人員加起來應該不下十幾萬人我們會動用我們的網絡來防止中共對台的竊選活動一定會的"},{"start":12301.928,"end":12325.285,"text":"接下來我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請王建斌委員謝謝好 謝謝主席我想有請那個管局程局長好 請局長"},{"start":12330.578,"end":12336.561,"text":"今天是國安局的業務報告我們都曉得國安局負責的就是台灣跟國際間的情報的安全工作國安局也針對近期我們美伊戰爭的影響以及中國大陸對我國近期的威脅進行報告"},{"start":12351.347,"end":12365.639,"text":"尤其近期這個美伊戰爭導致全球能源石化供應鏈大亂我們台灣不僅石油漲價石化產業也因為雲霧物料的供應減少被迫停工導致全台缺塑膠袋"},{"start":12367.32,"end":12388.749,"text":"的這個亂象那影響我們台灣的民生經濟那今天早上八點是川普總統要求伊朗要重啟這個荷姆斯海峽最後的期限那索性每兩國同意停戰兩週然後約定在四月十號再重啟這個展開談判那未來兩國是否會停戰這個仍在觀察那如果戰爭持續"},{"start":12390.526,"end":12408.613,"text":"那對台灣能源跟我們的石化工業會影響到越來越嚴重那國安局既然都掌握到國際的這個情勢的變化那本席想要就教我們局長就是說那國安局內部研判我們每一戰爭是否會停止那如果戰爭仍然持續那國安局內部評估對我們國內經濟的影響會有多大"},{"start":12413.831,"end":12427.819,"text":"因為管局必須掌握國際情勢因為分析未來這個局勢的發展提供給我們行政院還有相關的部會他可以提早做應變像這次的塑膠袋之亂看起來就是經濟部沒有掌握好然後導致這沒辦法及時的啟動這個應變的機制"},{"start":12430.14,"end":12446.613,"text":"整個國際的變化又很快速那這部分我想請國安局務必要做好這個勤收的工作報告那適時的提供給行政院跟相關部會讓他們可以在第一時間盡快的做出這樣的措施好這部分謝委員的提醒跟關切"},{"start":12447.153,"end":12465.285,"text":"那因為中東的情勢在今年2月28號美國發動對伊朗的攻擊行動之後那它牽動到的就不只是中東地緣政治的變化也影響到荷姆治海峽航運的安全而影響到全球的一個能源供應的穩定性那造成的衝擊是全面性的全球性的"},{"start":12465.865,"end":12482.352,"text":"那在相關的情資收集的部分我們跟國際友盟都有在不斷的交換情資那也透過我們的國安首長會議有跟行政院的系統做相關的一個分析跟報告那我所知道的是行政院他有物價穩定跟油價穩定的小組"},{"start":12483.593,"end":12501.025,"text":"那應該定期的會對外做說明跟發佈那至於怎麼處理我想委員應該可以理解我們必須要尊重行政院的處理因為我們是比較像是上游的情資分析的一個系統那把這個情勢讓行政院部分可以來做必要的應酬我們尊重行政院的處理"},{"start":12501.625,"end":12517.573,"text":"那後續可能還是要注意的是因為這次的這種能源的供應的穩定性的一個衝擊委員剛剛的問題是在那個時間點那什麼時候停戰那停戰之後會不會有影響那我必須要跟委員報告的是即使停戰"},{"start":12518.473,"end":12544.284,"text":"可能那個衝擊的效應還是會持續的存在因為畢竟中東當地有一些煉油的設施確實是在戰事當中有受到迫擊那他必須要做一些復原的所以他有涉及到國際上各個國家都不斷的在調度相關的油跟氣的一個供應那所以這部分我們有把相關的資訊也希望行政院在看相關問題的時候可以用更不只是短期中長期的一個規劃"},{"start":12546.205,"end":12561.164,"text":"要有一些處置因為那個石油是民生之母所有東西都用得到包括還有醫藥也相關都會有所以這個部分提早讓他們做準備包括我們要怎麼應對接下來的情況我想這個是局裡面能夠第一時間掌握的情勢給他們做分析"},{"start":12562.205,"end":12579.904,"text":"那現在我想要在國安局在今天的報告裡面也在提到說今年的工作的重點就是防範中共透過各種管道的方式滲透乃至於介入今年年底的地方選舉就是我們所謂的中共借選那這個問題本來也要講一組就是說如果中共對台灣今年的選舉"},{"start":12581.145,"end":12598.962,"text":"進行借權那確實是對我國這三十幾年來辛苦建立這個民主制度是一個很大的威脅但是因為這個議題是高度的敏感然後嚴重影響那我想要問一個關鍵問題就是說國安體系在整個應對中共借權的同時它有沒有可能會反過來影響到我們國內"},{"start":12600.283,"end":12620.555,"text":"內部的選舉的風向那因為從國安局的報告裡面大概應該也剛剛局長也說嘛你也掌握大量的借權的情質包括說正義的訊息啦異常的帳號啦然後身為的內容還有就是金流以及地下賭盤種種我想請教這些資訊對外揭露的標準是什麼是全面的或者即時公開或者是選擇性的釋出"},{"start":12622.816,"end":12650.575,"text":"那如果是選擇性的話 那是由誰決定什麼時候講 講多少 要講給誰聽因為這些訊息啊 一旦在選舉期間釋出啊它本身就足以影響到整個社會氛圍跟選民的判斷甚至會影響整個大選的結果那我舉個例 我像我們前立委孔文吉他當年到大陸參加這個少數人民主的活動那後來被指控他違反了這個反滲透法而且他在競選期間被偵辦"},{"start":12653.216,"end":12679.136,"text":"結果後來結論是花蓮地檢署偵檢是全部不起訴處分但是他有沒有影響到選舉結果確實有影響嘛那另外還有前陣子才發生的我們這一屆發生的就是民進黨的前立委因為有疑似烏鴉的影片流出那為什麼叫疑似就是因為影片送到國安局他都沒有辦法去證明說這個影片到底是真的還是偽造的所以外界會質疑說這個是不是有不同的標準或在護航的過程"},{"start":12680.373,"end":12702.584,"text":"那我們先前吳宗憲委員其實在質詢的時候也提到說法務部的資料裡面統計我們2024年大選期間違反反滲透法還有選罷法的案件不起訴的人數高達416人就是將近八成八成的案件都不起訴或無罪喔我舉這些例子就是要說明說一件事情足以影響一場選舉"},{"start":12706.086,"end":12731.923,"text":"在選舉期間中共借選四個字它本身就具有高度的政治效果如果沒有嚴格的標準跟監督的話會不會把一般政治攻防解讀成借選的行為或者把特定的言論直接貼上認知作戰的標籤這樣的結果不只是防止外力它可能會壓手到我們國內的言論自由的空間"},{"start":12732.944,"end":12755.822,"text":"那這本席要強調就是說防範中共借權非常重要但是同樣重要的是我們不能在防範外部干預的同時也讓我們這個制度失去的中立性因為國安體系的權力越大他就更需要越透明或是更節制來監督他不然這個社會一旦產生這種反借權是不是也讓也在影響選舉的結果"},{"start":12757.923,"end":12786.442,"text":"會讓人有這個懷疑那傷害的不是選舉的結果而已它傷害的是整個民主制度的這個信任的基礎那所以我在這邊也要請管局也要大聲的人清楚地跟大眾說我們在做這件事是確保我們這些作為是確保防衛民主而不是在介入民主部長我想第一點跟委員說明的是我想委員應該可以同意那民主選舉大概就是我們中華民國最重要的一個憲政制度跟主要的"},{"start":12787.723,"end":12806.309,"text":"政治價值所以確保我們的民主選舉的過程跟結果不受外力的干擾那我覺得最核心的一個任務也是我們國安局的使命那第二個部分是在公布中共屆選的樣態委員可能也會注意到不管是在今天的夜報還是我們以前都有年度的轉報我們大概所呈現的都是基本的"},{"start":12807.95,"end":12828.3,"text":"樣態跟那些手法那在今天的詢答或是在各個場合當中我都不會去涉入到個案的部分這大概是我們在處理上的一個基本的原則講的是一種總體性的樣態跟手法不談個案好那第三個部分是在處理包括委員提到的爭議訊息或認知作戰的部分國安局出面的話一定是國安層級"},{"start":12829.341,"end":12853.491,"text":"我們不會去涉入到選區委員之間可能有這種選舉的攻防而去變成是我們自己在借選這個不會所以這道國安層級的是那個爭議的訊息它有可能會影響到國家安全或社會秩序的穩定那甚至是說在那個爭訊的過程當中有去傷害到我們跟友盟重要的合作關係或是去污蔑我們的國家元首"},{"start":12853.931,"end":12881.885,"text":"那我們有定位幾個主要的一種徵訊的類型有達到國安層級我們的系統才會啟動那所以我想跟委員說明的是國安層級的爭議訊息跟一般選舉期間可能選區的這一些選舉策略的攻防那還是有一個區隔在那這部分前委員可以放心我們會拿捏那個尺度好 謝謝局長非常清楚的說明那以上謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝主席謝謝接下來我們請邱志維委員"},{"start":12898.866,"end":12901.665,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請國安局蔡局長我們請蔡局長"},{"start":12907.553,"end":12929.945,"text":"謝謝主席 邱委員好邱委員好 您今天的報告我想跟您請教幾個問題有關於這個美國在印太的這些戰略要建構拒止防禦的體系以美日鴻蒙為核心搭配美日加N大概很具體就是韓國 菲律賓 澳洲"},{"start":12932.17,"end":12956.344,"text":"澳飛這個建立起一個應待安全合作機制在四個面向指揮整合 臨演聯訓導練惡控跟後勤支援台灣有沒有可能成為N的部分但是不是四項都參與啦我意思說是不是指揮整合也可以跟美日來提出這個要求"},{"start":12957.964,"end":12973.48,"text":"後勤支援我們也可以扮演一定的角色你如果說要連演連訓可能目前階段有一定的難度可不可以從這兩個部分去切入國家有沒有這個戰略怎麼樣去融入美日加恩的這個安保體系"},{"start":12974.535,"end":13002.138,"text":"對 現在確實美國印太戰略很強調是島鏈的阻絕防禦的網絡雙邊的網絡 多邊的網絡那在過程當中委員有提到台灣怎麼樣切入這個網絡來串聯起我們跟友盟一個更堅強的一個防線那不過委員剛剛所提到的不管是連眼聯訊或後勤補給因為它比較涉及到的是國防部的業務啦我比較不適合在國防部 國防部很多同仁也在嘛對啊 比較不適合講給國防部聽啦現在是國防部來 我還在問"},{"start":13003.379,"end":13021.152,"text":"特別是針對指揮整合後勤資源這是比較相對不是這個實兵演練的這些工作可以循序漸進的來推動所以我覺得國安局應該統合國防部跟外交部"},{"start":13022.452,"end":13049.133,"text":"來推動這個台灣加入美日加N的這個體系裡面你一定要有做法你要有策略你才能想辦法去執行如果連想都沒有這永遠不可能達成另外我最近看到日本防衛大臣跟外務大臣跟法國的防衛大臣就是他們的國防部長跟外交部長2 plus 22 plus 2"},{"start":13052.298,"end":13069.93,"text":"台灣有沒有可能跟其他國家有官方政府間的2 plus 2針對國防外交的議題當然國會有 政黨也有國會跟日本有2 plus 2主要是針對安全跟外交政黨也有"},{"start":13071.434,"end":13086.171,"text":"國家間 台灣國家間能不能推動跟友好國家的2 plus 2有沒有可能我想任何可能性都存在那有一些這種雙多邊的合作也都有在推展那只是可能沒有辦法你確定有在推展"},{"start":13086.871,"end":13102.221,"text":"有在接觸也都有在推展我們剛剛也跟委員在EU報告有提到包括供應鏈的韌性防衛裝備的零組件的生產美國也邀請我們用顧問的身份來參加韌性夥伴會議不太可能一次到部長層級你可以到次長層級"},{"start":13104.164,"end":13117.839,"text":"循序漸進這個一定要做不是可能性而已可能性你要把它變成一個事實對台灣的安全至關重要另外這個日本南韓跟澳大利亞這個軍工產業的飛鴻供應鏈這個台灣有沒有這個積極去爭取加入"},{"start":13122.843,"end":13138.3,"text":"我剛有提到美國是用顧問的身份邀請我們參加那個任性夥伴關係的計畫裡面去那這部分就是有點在針對那個軍需產品的飛鴻這個不是美國是日本南韓跟澳洲我可以再翻到那個"},{"start":13140.111,"end":13143.294,"text":"另外你的報告裡面提到中國啊中國面臨國內外治理風險風險很多種超高風險高風險中路風險跟低風險"},{"start":13163.859,"end":13169.853,"text":"這個國安局的研判中共目前面臨的國內國外的治理風險是屬於哪一個層級的風險"},{"start":13172.098,"end":13193.336,"text":"有四個選項 超高風險 高風險 中風險 低風險委員有自己的四個風險的指標 不同風險指標的定義是什麼但是可以跟委員講的是風險在升高當中是由哪邊升到哪裡 從低升到中 還是中升到高持續升高當中"},{"start":13195.194,"end":13220.977,"text":"沒有天花板因為我不知道委員每個層級的定義是什麼我就沒有辦法針對目前的現況來符合到委員的定義三年之內他會垮台是高風險一年之內會垮台超高風險十年之後會垮台可能是主中風險二十年之後才會垮台是低風險治理住不好一定會垮台嘛對不對我剛剛講到我的標準"},{"start":13224.694,"end":13238.323,"text":"自理的風險在升高過程當中我們要注意但是中共也有它的一些因應內部問題的一些方式所以它是一個動態的過程他們因應的方式您知道嗎 您有掌握嗎"},{"start":13238.983,"end":13263.684,"text":"他們現在加強內部的內控內管那我再繼續請教你國外的治理風險能不能具體說明一下他們國外的治理風險在哪裡外部的治理風險我們在夜報當中特別提到的是美中的關係因為美國對中國不管是在地緣政治、科技管制、經貿還有關稅政策上都給中國蠻大的壓力所以這造成中國在有內部問題的同時還要因應到外部的一個美國的一個施壓"},{"start":13264.724,"end":13285.556,"text":"美國友盟也在進行這種非紅供應鏈的重組這也讓中國的產業在發展過程當中被排擠在非紅供應鏈之外內外交迫對 所以它外部確實有這些的問題內外交迫另外 FOIP 自由開放的印太這個當然是安倍首相所提出來的已經十年前提出來的每日都有相關的 FOIP 的戰略"},{"start":13286.197,"end":13297.131,"text":"我們有沒有FOIP這相關的戰略規劃對 那基本上是符合我們的國家安全利益也就是說維持一個印太自由開放我知道符合我們的利益 但是要有能夠有效參與"},{"start":13300.372,"end":13319.568,"text":"這對我們也很重要跟我們說明一下在印太的自由開放裡面台海的和平穩定應該是最重要的一個那你要怎麼去做這不是一個口號沒有口號這也是我們剛剛一直在呼籲可能在一些國防的投資上面也要注意到周邊國家在這方面都有相當緊急的建設我們目標是要POIP"},{"start":13320.248,"end":13329.041,"text":"要建立一個自由開放的印太要怎麼去建立要怎麼去達成一定要有相關的做法而且要去執行最後一個問題請問這個調查局陳局長年底"},{"start":13336.98,"end":13351.51,"text":"九合一的選舉年底九合一選舉非常複雜基層里長到縣市所長議員全部參選九合一是這個會影響選舉公平大概中國的屆選中國的屆選剛剛局長已經答了很多了"},{"start":13353.898,"end":13379.747,"text":"這個會選的部分就需要調查局所以住區 住縣 住處的所有同仁調查局的同仁都非常優秀是 謝謝他們在辦理各項業務都也很嚴謹所以查會是非常重要所以你要局長重視你這個局裡面的同仁就會重視每一個處 比方說高雄處 台南處什麼你只要下達這個嚴打 嚴查"},{"start":13384.659,"end":13398.859,"text":"這個會選他就不會那麼猖獗還是有會選會選會嚴重影響跟我們報告我已經在二月的時候召集所有的內外勤的主管已經下達這個工作指令就已經開始在做這個規劃跟部署"},{"start":13399.667,"end":13425.958,"text":"然後要有績效這當然這個要讓這個想要賄選的人不敢賄選是是所以之前的這些部署很重要是你不知道事後你全面展開的時候你的能力可能也不夠去去查事前的這些部署讓這些想要買票純粹運動的人不敢不敢動對這部分再拜託局長沒有問題夾大力道好沒有問題謝謝委員支持"},{"start":13427.834,"end":13456.16,"text":"謝謝委員剛才其實委員有提到的這些部分再麻煩大家回去來檢討一下昨天我們在辦理這個論壇的時候蒙哥馬綠海軍的這個將軍也提到我們台灣的協同能力機密傳輸能力的投資非常的不到位那如果美日軍艦在10分鐘可以建立起機密的通訊他直接說台灣的既得艦要兩天48小時跟10分鐘那表示我們在這個地方的投資還不夠"},{"start":13457.881,"end":13481.154,"text":"那今天我們也提到很多委員都提到安全核可的部分其實我們兩年前有提出相關的法案那剛才有提到可是我還是建議就院版還是可以出來那看一下美國的做法我們就不用重新發明輪值如果我們要跟他們有更好的共接的話那這個東西可能要快不然每天每月都還是會有類似的"},{"start":13482.415,"end":13491.667,"text":"樣態出現那對所有的行政機關也好立法機關也好大家都會受到一些名譽上的損害這樣不太好"},{"start":13493.154,"end":13515.1,"text":"已登記諮詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢問結束本次會議由黃仁委員、黃馬文君委員、林盈瑾委員、薛曉欣委員提出書面執行並且列入紀錄刊登公報委員書面及口頭諮詢未答覆部分或要求補充質要者請相關機關兩週內以書面答覆委員另有指定期限者從其鎖定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實以相關保密規定處理本次會議到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}