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先生敬德今天應邀來到貴會報告本會業務深感榮幸以下針對重點內容作摘要報告詳細內容請各位委員翻閱書面報告"},{"start":1646.397,"end":1671.394,"text":"工程會主管政府採購法、祭司法及工程技術公司管理條例並負責推動均衡臺灣重大建設強化公共工程管理本會也是丹納斯豪雨水災及馬太安溪厭涉湖災害災後復原重建條例的主管機關統籌協調各部會及地方政府進行災區復建工作"},{"start":1672.435,"end":1700.846,"text":"首先包括馬太安溪驗射湖災後重建為有效追蹤重建工作本會建立三層級管考架構包括重建項目指計劃工作從計劃審理到執行都採系統化追蹤除了定期檢核也不定期實地查訪了解地方情況並協助解決問題政府編列馬太安270億重建特別預算共有8個部會"},{"start":1703.206,"end":1721.372,"text":"提出39項此計劃總額255億元本會議審查完畢行政院願以115年3月16日至4月2日陸續核定完略為加強跨部會與地方工作協調原本的中央災害應變中心前進協調署已轉變為馬太安溪驗射湖"},{"start":1726.013,"end":1743.418,"text":"災後重建中央協調匯報除了每月定期開會每季也擴大邀請地方出席包括縣政府議會鄉長及原住民族部落代表截至今年3月底已經召開5次會議"},{"start":1745.745,"end":1762.334,"text":"本會也在光復火車站設立工作站希望就近回應地方需求會診每日工程進度進行限地會勘同步提供民眾諮詢服務本會也建置重建專期網站"},{"start":1763.214,"end":1772.942,"text":"定期公布溪流疏浚、橋樑工程及中紀屋進度居民關心的租金補貼、農業輔導就業協助與生活輔助相關計畫、法規及會議紀錄都公開刊登在專區為加速辦理全國災害"},{"start":1782.674,"end":1792.944,"text":"重建復建工程審議效力地方政府可依災後工程急迫性分批提報中央急報急審本會會持續檢討經費審議執行流程"},{"start":1797.625,"end":1815.017,"text":"接下來報告公共工程管理本會針對資安高風險工程防汛整備水利工程季節性影響工程及列管計劃工程優先選案辦理查核在公共工程金職獎方面本會"},{"start":1816.898,"end":1834.307,"text":"去年6月修正規定提高參選案件查核頻率擴大得獎廠商採購評選加分範圍確保案件施工品質並進一步激勵得獎廠商在公共建設推動方面本會每年度"},{"start":1835.626,"end":1846.449,"text":"每年年度初都會提醒各機關合理分配預算提前盤點下一年度可先辦理的前置作業確保計劃順利推動114年度總計列管327項公共建設計劃總經費7732億經費達成利益到"},{"start":1858.012,"end":1861.956,"text":"95.72%較前一年提升1.91%115年度列管297項計畫總經費7123億將逐月透過督導匯報及三層級管理落實控管"},{"start":1877.543,"end":1890.381,"text":"必要時辦理實地查訪實地了解並解決問題114年共辦理12場訪查包括離島供水改善三期淡江大橋及中油三接計畫"},{"start":1891.863,"end":1912.227,"text":"另外針對工程停工解約問題本會定有管理機制去年有2,302件工程因復工或重新發包也讓1,028億工程預算重新投入市場同時也督促機關一約加速付款去年主動篩選已完成205件工程"},{"start":1914.628,"end":1942.482,"text":"工程款支付 付款金額約26.58億元在工地安全方面本會將職安納入查核重點並以勞動部盡力橫向通報機制針對常見重大職災辦理專案查核高風險工程則聘請具備職安專長或證照查核委員參與職安表現也列入金職獎評審標準重大職災案件不能參選"},{"start":1943.402,"end":1958.628,"text":"此外為補充花東地區土木工程人才本會補助宜安大學在花蓮車站開設土木工程學分班協助在地人員考取土木國考就近培養人才目前有一百多人報名"},{"start":1959.748,"end":1972.765,"text":"已經於115年3月23日開訓最後各界關注的政府採購法修法本會去年11月預告修法草案在兩個月預告期間收到很多工商團體機關及民眾的寶貴意見在確保"},{"start":1977.151,"end":1998.01,"text":"制度運作穩定並尊重社會共識原則下本會調整修法期程於凝聚各界共識後再提送大會審議其中三家廠商才能開標的規定是從民國39年稽查條例沿用至今當時招標尚未電子化"},{"start":1998.57,"end":2024.559,"text":"本會的修法初衷是考量時空環境改變且WTO政府採購協定GPA及美英歐盟日本等先進國家並沒有三加的限制本會基於加速行政流程及降低管制成本在強制採購資訊提早公開的前提下提出三次加速的建議不過各界陸續提出許多建設性的觀點認為現階段"},{"start":2026.92,"end":2053.26,"text":"仍有三家限制的必要以確保採購品質以透明度因此本會考量制度嚴格以實務需求後決定保留現行條文不做調整本會也了解任何制度調整都需要兼顧市場秩序機關管理能力及整體運作的穩定性因此後續將持續整合各界意見並就整體影響進行長期"},{"start":2054.941,"end":2066.986,"text":"的配套評估在充分凝聚共識後再依照程序推動修法本會將持續推動採購電子化去年電子公告招標與決標約458,000筆電子領標比例達99.57%電子投標財務以工程採購率達成率分別為58.9%及28.8%超過年度目標"},{"start":2079.98,"end":2105.636,"text":"本會也建立施工廠商及參與人員履歷制度協助各機關採購選商、履約管理目前累積超過1.3萬家廠商以16萬筆工程人員資料供各機關查詢運用採購爭議方面本會持續提供採購諮詢案情單純或有前例者會及時提供書面意見複雜案件則開會協處"},{"start":2109.278,"end":2115.922,"text":"截至今年3月底已召開136件諮詢會議其中7成3採納本會議件續辦禮約爭議方面110年至114年本會調解成立約8成為有效化"},{"start":2126.994,"end":2142.428,"text":"化解爭議並降低訴訟成本最後公共工程與民眾福祉及國家經濟發展密切相關本會將持續協助各機關排除困難確保工程順利並提升施工品質"},{"start":2143.169,"end":2159.996,"text":"促進區域均衡發展本會也會持續追蹤災後重建進度確保政策目標如期達成打造人本優質永續的生活環境為國家經濟注入持續的動能以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2168.971,"end":2187.215,"text":"好 我們謝謝工程會曾經的主委的報告接下來我們進行詢答我們先宣告以下事項第一 我們詢答的時間初席委員6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記請於10點30分截止"},{"start":2190.632,"end":2212.954,"text":"各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出 以便議事人員會整我們暫定10點30分 休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位的委員 李昆哲委員發言謝謝召委 請一下陳經的主委請陳主委"},{"start":2219.338,"end":2244.955,"text":"委員長主委好有關於淨零碳排的議題我們屢屢在公共工程委員會的質詢上面多次的要求工程會要逐步的落實的執行那尤其是在淨零碳排的這樣一個議題早已經是世界各國的共識而且在經歷進來的這樣的一個國際局勢的動盪不安的狀況之下"},{"start":2249.619,"end":2264.715,"text":"這樣一個國家的面對這樣的一個局勢相關的碳排以及再生能源韌性的加強再生能源體系的建立更是國家未來重要的一個議題那"},{"start":2267.12,"end":2288.547,"text":"國家也定定2050年進行碳排的這樣一個重要的目標但是我們看到綠色採購有關於相關的金額歷年來都不足1%那這個相關的成效不彰早已經是社會各界議論的一個主要議題來請主委簡單說明一下為什麼效果這麼不好"},{"start":2292.708,"end":2311.878,"text":"台灣每年碳排大概兩億六千萬噸或兩億七千萬噸其中能源使用包括發電佔了大概三分之一公共工程大概佔了百分之九那麼碳排這件事情因為能源使用所以必須排那本來就是一件很難處理"},{"start":2313.379,"end":2338.924,"text":"的工作所以台灣雖然小但是重視這個在全球要減少碳排這樣的一個需求上面進行的規劃所以管理公共工程方面除了我們現在在建置的碳排係數希望在設計階段納入考量之外未來我們再加強兩個部分一個在重大的公共建設的基本設計審議階段"},{"start":2341.244,"end":2368.357,"text":"工程會會要求設計主辦機關呢將這個碳補桌那麼納入考量或者是公共工程委員會受邀協審重大公共建設在國發會的階段也會提出相同的要求換句話說我們希望重大的公共建設那麼他在設計階段就要把碳補桌減少碳排的設計納入否則的話我們不會通過我想這源頭來處理"},{"start":2371.919,"end":2389.83,"text":"針對2050年的淨營碳排 公共工程委員會也有公共工程節能減碳的計畫主要是分成三大部分來做一個實施第一個是收集公共工程各項排放係數這個部分初步已經完成"},{"start":2390.43,"end":2412.398,"text":"那第二個階段是碳排資料庫也預計要在今年底來完成那這個部分其實是分成三個部分第一個是收集各公共工程的這樣的一個排放係數那這個資料我看2024年5月之後就沒有再更新過了"},{"start":2413.098,"end":2439.679,"text":"第二個工作的重點是碳足跡的資料庫這是由環境部來主導那環境部主導之後他的資料驗證及導入再移到這個工程會就是我們的要建立試算的一個系統那這個2026年才招標系統什麼時候會建置完成什麼時候會開放使用 主委說明一下"},{"start":2441.343,"end":2460.35,"text":"我首先說明就是這個係數的統計是逐步的啦現在大概有2000多筆那麼將來系統會提供給主辦機關做設計使用那至於如何開始我想請副主委來說明我們這個排放試算系統預計要到2027年才要上線測試這個遠比荷蘭的落後10年了"},{"start":2467.649,"end":2478.978,"text":"來 副主委說明一下好 謝謝委員那剛剛委員提到那個碳排氣數的更新我想在大概一年以前我們的碳排氣數大概只有1030幾筆經過這段時間跟這樣收集各部會的資訊然後同時再去查證之後我們現在已經累積到2000多筆"},{"start":2488.906,"end":2507.319,"text":"那另外這個我們那個碳排的減碳的那個系統其實是要嫁接在我們目前的那個PCCES系統上就是價格估算系統那因為這個系統其實也有一定時間所以我們大概同步會做兩件事情一個就是把現在那個PCCES這個系統把它做一個進版升級版"},{"start":2507.959,"end":2536.658,"text":"讓他更好用讓他更準確度那同時因為這個PCCS就有相關的這些工項工項之後除了有價格之外我們就會再疊加那個我們所收集來之後驗證的這些碳排的係數那所以因此各單位到時候在起計畫的時候其實他就可以一方面算出他的那個預算的規模合理預算規模另外一個就是他可以知道說他那個碳排係數是多少那這樣來一起來控制預算相關的程序我們都清楚"},{"start":2538.059,"end":2557.417,"text":"相關的時期的建置我們也都清楚但是這樣的一個效率實在是太低了這個請陳主委必須要加緊的督促另外我們要建置這種排放的試算系統我認為就是應該要參考荷蘭的獨波克系統"},{"start":2558.427,"end":2584.765,"text":"那他們這樣的一個公共工程在荷蘭他們利用試算系統建立獎勵的制度不只是推動試算的這樣的一個計算的方式出來而且是要有獎勵的機制那荷蘭在2000年的時候開始使用這種突破課的系統2017年他們就導入線上的數位管理了"},{"start":2585.882,"end":2607.783,"text":"他們強制規定政府採購千萬歐元以上的工程都必須要採用而且試算的結果要納入投標的文件之中那工程排放來做分級的這樣的一個處理更重要他有一個虛擬折價的這樣的一個系統跟方式那"},{"start":2609.383,"end":2628.523,"text":"荷蘭他有一個部門叫基礎建設與水資源管理部他們2000年運用這個系統2017年開始導入這種排放的管理的數位管理那依照工程他們建立一至五級的這樣一個分級"},{"start":2631.101,"end":2634.967,"text":"分別可以虛擬折價1至5%就是說這種虛擬折價 假設這種工程的業者他們投標金額是1億那"},{"start":2642.984,"end":2669.858,"text":"如果該業者能夠取得虛擬折價的一級那就可以減少投標金額的1%五級就是5%那有效的讓這種要建立排放減碳的這些業者能夠取得投標的一個優勢那這樣的一個公共工程委員會對於未來資料庫跟試算系統建立之後"},{"start":2671.089,"end":2689.681,"text":"如何要進行推廣以及運用有沒有初步的規劃來請說明一下目前公共工程委員會辦理金職獎的頒獎這個金職獎在押標軍啊旅約保證等等都減少而且投標也會加分金職獎裡面有關於這個ESG的部分"},{"start":2692.583,"end":2711.041,"text":"是平分的那ESG裡面呢排碳是納入他的項目所以呢減碳這件事情如果具體做的話對他承攬相關工程是有優勢的是目前在進行的好這是一個重要的方向偵測的方向那我必須要具體的建議了我們"},{"start":2712.625,"end":2727.58,"text":"在正式公開進行測試要採取這種逐步的而且是滾動檢討的方式來做實施的一個方向核算系統是本來就有提供給機關在基本設計審查的時候去規劃他的成本預算用"},{"start":2731.604,"end":2754.221,"text":"現在是嫁接 另外就是說我們也要邀請業者來進行測試除了協助蒐集數據以及掀起輔導業者使用之外也可以同步的來蒐集業者使用的一個經驗提前來發現系統不良以及不足之處來進行相關的一個改善"},{"start":2754.761,"end":2782.259,"text":"好的 這個我們會逐年那麼陸續跟業者呢就主辦機關啦 互動然後來回饋一些意見來做修正另外最後的一些建議也就是2026年我們要進行相關的這些未來推動的規劃那包含系統的公開試用推廣與輔導到最後強制的這一種採用的期程規劃"},{"start":2785.221,"end":2811.961,"text":"強制採用的範圍對象金額規模的試行以及全面採用必須要分階段來實施那我們要逐步的來導入這種獎勵或者是剛才主委所說的金職獎或者是來研擬一下虛擬的這種折價或是其他相關的獎勵措施那而且我們要開放資料"},{"start":2813.702,"end":2839.814,"text":"讓民間參考或第三方來做一個檢視沒有問題那推動計算的方式要更新滾動的更新如果發現有什麼問題我們必須要滾動的更新那每一年我們來評選減排優秀的這些案例來進行推廣來促進業界的一個交流那請陳主委來督促好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2842.106,"end":2859.862,"text":"我們感謝李君哲委員我們現場有李君哲委員 洪孟楷委員請問各位委員我們對上次會議的議事錄有沒有意見謝謝 沒有意見的話讓我們議事錄確定接下來我們邀請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2869.534,"end":2871.221,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":2878.573,"end":2903.05,"text":"委員長 主委好 本席要針對從年初開始全國有所謂的土方之亂要跟我們工程會來就教因為工程會日前有召集環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部來討論就土方之亂要怎麼解決而最終把一些包括台北港、台中港、高雄港跟南興計畫的土地變成是土方的佔據區跟去化區"},{"start":2905.171,"end":2931.313,"text":"那但是在這過程裡面台北港在本期的選區可是從頭到尾巴黎的民眾以及我們地方的鄉親並沒有參與這個討論也因此現在爆發說原來台北港外他還不在台北港內在台北港外也就緊鄰我們的馬路旁邊要有一個土地來做一個土方置戰制區那地方民眾當然會群起華然跟反彈"},{"start":2933.035,"end":2954.976,"text":"為什麼突然間在這邊會有一個戰事區然後後續在這個戰事區上面還要做一個相關的處理而且所謂的戰事到底是戰事多久到目前為止各方單位沒有辦法給我們明確的答案我上一次質詢環境部 環境部部長講是說一年但一年之後會不會可以順利的退場這一點主委你怎麼看"},{"start":2956.076,"end":2976.63,"text":"包委員土方的業務是歸內政部主管那跟土方的產出源包括公共工程其實民間的建築是大宗那公共工程委員會當然希望包括公共工程的土方出處能夠有一個合理的"},{"start":2977.731,"end":2988.739,"text":"便利的去處不會影響公共工程的進度但整個土方的處理是由內政部呢協調交通部去台北港並非公共工程委員會的不是公共工程委員會的業務國土署也算您督導嗎"},{"start":2992.717,"end":3009.478,"text":"那是政務委員的部分是 政務委員的部分嘛 沒錯啊但現在我們看到是說在這一次的土方之亂連前工程會主委吳哲成啊他也直接就點名是說看不下去認為這一次土方之亂問題在於末端土方出處沒有準備好就開始執行流量管制啊"},{"start":3010.824,"end":3038.453,"text":"土方業務報告委開宗明義講說你說國家共大公共工程我們要支持沒有問題啊但重點在於是說突然間沒有準備好然後就頒布一個政策所以說造成土方之亂土方之亂之後馬上急救張再去做去化所以到時候選擇到地方要有戰事場那這不很草率嗎土方管理30年了在這個過程裡面有沒有跟地方溝通過土方管理超過30年了並不是今天才亂"},{"start":3040.054,"end":3062.089,"text":"歷任就是今年最亂歷任的主委歷任的主管他們都有進行那今年只是增加了這個GPS的裝置跟流向管制所以這就變成是配套的措施有沒有做好而造不然主委你也不需要開始召集環境部交通部等相關單位來共同討論吧"},{"start":3063.732,"end":3089.329,"text":"不是嗎那另外再來喔前環保署副署長律師詹順貴也稱土方之亂是行政院某政務委員惡搞那位政務委員是誰這個我不了解他講的是誰啦不過我對這位前政務官也知之甚明啦我們彼此了解就好彼此了解就好是什麼意思我了解他的說法至於他講誰你要問他"},{"start":3090.109,"end":3109.037,"text":"喔 我要問他 因為你也不清楚是誰因為不是我講的 所以你要問他你也不清楚是誰那你要問他不是 這不是我要問他 你現在不用反質詢我現在在問的是說 某政務官員在惡搞嘛那也因此是說 兩位民進黨前朝官員都暗指在這次的土方之亂 事出必有因啊"},{"start":3110.302,"end":3129.605,"text":"必有妖啊你說30年過去那過去30年就沒有造成今年那麼的餘波蕩漾啊那還有過去如果說30年要處理的話那沒有在巴黎地區找一個土地來做戰志場那為什麼突然間今年這樣子那我只想問就是說巴黎地區的民眾他也給本席陳情"},{"start":3130.586,"end":3157.974,"text":"他也問我們之前在地方說明會也召集相關單位來之後發覺是完全沒有後續的配套到底你暫置要暫置多久是不是一年哪一個單位可以保證主委你是身為公共工程的主管我建議委員到內政委員會去執行內政部這不是你建議我而是現在本席就在問的是說既然這已經是跨部會的溝通而有政務委員出來做跨部會的協調的時候"},{"start":3159.514,"end":3176.111,"text":"我們想問說到底這個決策的過程地方政府配合然後結果全部中央下來然後地方政府跟我們民間到最後來承受這樣的壓力誰來看看理解或是了解我們的居民的壓力主委 有沒有開過會"},{"start":3181.041,"end":3206.633,"text":"我是基於這位委員召集相關法律的事情是嘛所以那一天的主席是誰什麼 開過很多次會那一天主席是誰哪一天找相關本席剛剛講的來決定開了多次會議開了多次會議我的主委本席現在要的是哪一次會議做了什麼決定我想問你說你現在把整個這個土方的主委本席現在要的是說要看到地方民眾的需求"},{"start":3207.153,"end":3227.796,"text":"而不是說我們開完會之後後續就變成沒有事所以本席這個陳情書能不能也給我們公共工程委員會一份讓我們公共工程委員會來去了解能夠做的部分請你再以政務委員的立場再召集相關部會甚至地方政府大家共同來討論怎麼樣降低地方的衝擊這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":3228.777,"end":3242.964,"text":"我基於尊重委員的這個要求啦那因為我身兼政務委員我是可以接受但是請不要把土方之亂灌在我陳金德身上我先 從頭到尾沒有你要早去找那個詹順貴"},{"start":3244.545,"end":3267.171,"text":"那但是本席現在要問的是民進黨政府從上到下到底要解決問題要有配套要有措施要有辦法而不是丟出來之後後續讓地方來去吸收我覺得這樣子大家沒有辦法接受所以主委這個陳情書這個我基於尊重委員的職權樂意接受好 謝謝主委等一下我就給我們相關單位來再來"},{"start":3269.432,"end":3296.973,"text":"也請主委真的要重視我們中央跟地方溝通的一個部分即便你開會你沒有直接來跟地方溝通你也要要求相關部會應該要跟地方合理說明否則的話這樣子推動真的是讓大家地方滑爛再來另外一個部分公共工程委員會現在要做政府採購法的一個修法嘛那都還在這個公告以及相關的一個部分但是其中雖然刪除三家投標的一個限制引發爭議"},{"start":3298.322,"end":3314.327,"text":"那暫緩有現在是講說暫緩修法不知道什麼時候我們會再審到但另外一個部分草案新增國家安全跟機密採購有可能直接採取限制機招標或是選擇性招標那外界也會有聯想說這又會不會是開大開方便之門"},{"start":3315.348,"end":3329.763,"text":"謝謝文子教所以我們現在重新在整個在接受各界的寶貴意見會重新彙整在必要的時候再重新預告所以什麼時候會預告還沒有我們就是彙整之後再重新預告本已經預告過了是"},{"start":3331.164,"end":3350.861,"text":"預告過啦就是外界划然以及外界疑慮很多啊包括說因為本席還是開宗明義談調外界贊成的也很多外界支持的也很多主委如果說外界支持的話你就不會再拿回去重新再修正了啦講大白話如果說你覺得外界支持很多那就硬推嘛"},{"start":3351.522,"end":3379.253,"text":"那就送進來嘛但沒有啊你公告完畢之後你現在你剛剛自己就講是說你又再回去又再修正又再討論代表確實有反彈聲音但是本席現在想強調的是本席現在想強調的是如果說能夠讓一般基層公務同仁能夠更便捷節省他的行政流程讓他增加效率本席不反對這是一般的基層公務同仁但是請聽清楚如果說"},{"start":3380.906,"end":3403.804,"text":"動不動就拿什麼國安機密機密採購然後扣帽子然後直接就講是說這個東西就直接要進入選擇性招標然後完全沒有外界沒有辦法評估沒有辦法了解然後你就是指定招標的話本期沒有辦法接受為什麼因為過去我們就看到很多機密招標或是很多相關國安的部分什麼軍方買水120塊一罐5萬塊的會議椅"},{"start":3407.421,"end":3422.937,"text":"那這個部分我真的很擔心說以後如果說你這樣變你的修法通過之後軍方五萬塊會議以算不算是國安機密他認定了之後他就變成是選擇性招標那到最後變成是刷碼國安機密 駭碼國安機密"},{"start":3425.267,"end":3445.584,"text":"我覺得這個是一般民眾都沒有辦法接受的剛才我跟你講這個個案是確定有這個個案嗎買水用限責性招標嗎不是啊本席就講是說過去到現在有多少這一些都已經這個就是被我們立法院挑出來所以買水到7-11買就可以了啊主委買水到7-11買就可以了對"},{"start":3447.165,"end":3462.311,"text":"主委所以說你自己也覺得很荒謬嘛你覺得這個標案也很荒謬嘛這個標案就是之前在外交國防委員會外交部報出來的預算被我們外交國防的委員挑出來到最後顧立雄自己說回去的標案啊"},{"start":3463.624,"end":3485.588,"text":"所以本席現在講的是說什麼本席現在講的是說我們還是要有一個持平性不要什麼事情都打著國安機密的大旗來去做掩護的事實所以本席先提出當然你現在已經講了就是說你還會再做修正之後再做公告嘛對不對預計什麼時候再公告"},{"start":3485.908,"end":3513.88,"text":"我們會中整各界一經再來辦理所以目前沒有時間表還沒有好本席還是一樣的態度跟一樣的原則預算當用則用 花在刀口上但是當審則審公共工程委員會是我們國家的主管採購相關標案的機關更應該以身作則以上 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝侯孟侃委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲召委發言"},{"start":3520.941,"end":3525.984,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席要請我們工程會陳金德主委請陳金德主委主委好 主委我今天要跟你探討 第一個我們六都唯一沒有捷運的就是台南那台南目前捷運的進度最快的"},{"start":3545.106,"end":3566.724,"text":"甚至渴望希望能夠在今年來完成發包正式動工的就是藍線藍線在去年是要核定它的綜合規劃我在這邊要感謝我們工程會的同仁在去年一路以來給台南市"},{"start":3567.685,"end":3576.25,"text":"捷運南線這個綜合規劃的核定給我們很多專業的協助但現在要進入最後一個最重要的就是經費的審議要審定這個經費全部經費總共327億"},{"start":3587.042,"end":3611.473,"text":"那麼這條線 這條藍線是台南市的進度最快 也渴望是第一條動工的捷運線它一對永康到東區 到這麼遠的仁德這三區都是人口稠密的行政區這三區差不多五十萬人 五十萬個人口數它向北邊 大概從永康"},{"start":3612.293,"end":3623.856,"text":"大橋就是我們說的永康齊美醫院對南來到台南市東區的平石營區然後它有一個向東到臨北的中山樓那邊有設一個基站那麼總長大概8.5公里那麼這條路"},{"start":3632.079,"end":3653.117,"text":"也很特殊 因為他是在賴清德做市長的任內開始進行可行性研究賴清德做行政院長的時候 何定這樣的路線他現在做總統 任內也渴望即將動工所以這是階段性持續推動 你看這已經經過十幾年的時間了"},{"start":3656.504,"end":3668.592,"text":"明天4月14日工程會就要到台南現場去勘查捷運作為接下來經費審定的最後一關"},{"start":3674.724,"end":3692.411,"text":"那麼這個部分 是不是請我們工程會能夠再像過去一樣 盡速的來協助我們處理經費一核定 接下來就可以進行工程的發包希望能夠在今年如期的動工我們要請教工程會的陳主委"},{"start":3692.831,"end":3715.661,"text":"先以為的確是台南是最後一個要建制捷運的六都的一個城市那這個基本設計審查初步工程會有經過一些初審那明天上午會到縣地呢會邀集相關的委員到縣地去看然後現勘之後也在台南立即召開最後一次的審查會議"},{"start":3717.122,"end":3741.954,"text":"所以明天審查會如果委員大家都同意或有一些小修正那本案就算最後就核定了那核定之後那台灣市政府當然就可以依據這個核定的基本設計跟經費進行相關發包作業那現在才四月嘛所以他應該可以盡速來辦理發包的這個工作好 感謝主委啦那明天是誰帶隊"},{"start":3743.24,"end":3754.667,"text":"我跟李副主委還有相關的主管都會下去好 非常感謝希望能夠儘速地做經費審議的核定因為這條線 藍線是第一條它接下來當然還有藍沿線因為這條做好了之後 它就往藍"},{"start":3760.911,"end":3787.005,"text":"延伸到高鐵 把它割掉現在台南稻棧的高鐵一年人次超過一千萬現在這麼多人出來都沒有大宗運輸就沒有捷運了但是只有剩下那種轉運的巴士而已希望能夠再增加捷運來讓旅客進出台南高鐵站能夠更方便這條要先做這條大在市區的心臟地帶"},{"start":3789.867,"end":3807.671,"text":"所以我們寄予厚望 那也請工程會 謝謝工程會來繼續給我們協助啦那另外要注意探討一件事 是關於我們法規的一項前幾天 台南市的棒球場 亞太棒球場周邊的攤商 招標 引起很大的討論"},{"start":3813.291,"end":3836.187,"text":"我們現在討論的不是台南市這個亞太棒球場外這種攤商招標的個案我要講的是這個個案所引發的通案你這個個案是怎麼應給大家討論的因為亞太棒球場外面的攤商一公告是4月4日4月4日就結標了那你4月2日一公告"},{"start":3837.52,"end":3858.933,"text":"那第二天就開始休假4月3號4號5號6號連續休4天的清明連假然後連假結束4月7號就結標就停止收標了4月8號開標我算一下他的天數啦是合法啦 合規啦"},{"start":3860.137,"end":3884.303,"text":"但是我認為啊 有改善的空間啦因為這可能會形成公平性的問題啦你想說你四月四日開錶 回來那四天廉價料你就要截止啦所以想要參與的投標廠商啊他幾乎沒有什麼可以準備的時間啦除非你事先知道有這個標案"},{"start":3886.351,"end":3892.28,"text":"你就可能形成會有不公平的質疑以這樣的時間點當然我是最優先我事先已經知道有這個標案"},{"start":3900.137,"end":3920.55,"text":"否則的話一般的廠商大家都會被這樣的一個公告時間給壓縮到其實工程會也知道這種事情這種狀況所以工程會在今年春節期間我們工程會就有特別發文請各機關你那個等標期就是你開標到結標中間的這個期限你如果賭的廉價應該要延長"},{"start":3925.729,"end":3951.019,"text":"因為那時候春節今年好像休了9天10天所以工程會特別發這個文原因就是說希望能夠跳過這個廉價但是啦很多單位接下來他就是以只要合屋規定因為你只要低於公告金額的就是差不多150萬以內你只要5天嘛 電子零不要5天嘛"},{"start":3951.874,"end":3973.553,"text":"所以他就不會去考量你這中間有沒有廉價的問題所以我們工廠會是不是就這一點啊能夠做進一步的的一個改善如果以後遇到有廉價的狀況那麼是不是應該啊要來跳過去我請副主委好來請副主委"},{"start":3975.074,"end":3999.349,"text":"委員好謝謝委員這個問題那因為上禮拜大概有接到這樣的一個個案那我就有特別去了解一下目前等標期的設計確實誠如委員所講的那原則上我們是訂一個最低的這個等標期的期間但當然他必須符合這個所謂的合理性嘛"},{"start":4000.43,"end":4025.523,"text":"但是問題是這個就過於的這個有點蓋鍋啦每個機關的理解不太一樣所以目前那麼我在內部的研究上面原理的方向可能會是朝理論上應該是他實際上有在工作的時間來定這個等標題比較合理啦所以目前的檢討方向會是往這個方向來檢討"},{"start":4027.594,"end":4045.809,"text":"因為目前的規定我們這個招票期限標準第十一條有下到他這是大概考量到禮拜五我們目前只規定到禮拜五如果是禮拜五公告對不對期算是你從禮拜一開始算你要跳過禮拜六禮拜天你是考量到這一點"},{"start":4046.71,"end":4067.636,"text":"可是那個廉價有時候更可怕台灣的廉價他們價值非常多尤其盡量調的讓它連在一起我來看一下你今年清明節我想說為什麼會不會是個案你看有這麼多機關包括國防部軍醫局經濟部產業管理局台北分局高雄農總"},{"start":4069.745,"end":4074.933,"text":"他們同樣都是4月2號公告結票日都是4月7號中間都卡到4月3、4、5、6這四天連假都卡在這個這個等標期間這個會造成"},{"start":4084.197,"end":4108.995,"text":"這個很多人的來不及備標或者是我會質疑除非你有內定廠商你已經首先有人在準備了不然你怎麼會有讓投標廠商來備標呢我希望這一點工程會在未來應該把它納入考量你這考量到禮拜五跳過禮拜六日從禮拜一開始算但這個廉價更嚴重啦好不好好 我們謝謝工程會的陳主委謝謝副主委"},{"start":4119.312,"end":4122.836,"text":"好 接下來我們邀請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請工程會陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":4144.783,"end":4159.244,"text":"主委早安我想這個工程的這個安全施工安全非常的重要那我們看到在三個月底就是3月31號在新北市新莊的這個衛福部台北醫院"},{"start":4160.345,"end":4189.217,"text":"集中正大樓的新建工程五樓發生了一件這個墜落的工人失主墜落的一個意外那很不幸的也因為傷重不治所以這樣子的一個事件一再的發生讓我們覺得非常的遺憾所以對於如何落實公安的一個防護避免這樣子的意外一再的發生非常的一個重要那我們也看到工程會在今天的這個業務報告裡面也有針對就是說如何落實職安"},{"start":4189.83,"end":4205.127,"text":"又提出了四個面向就是聘任具職安專長的委員然後第二個是要求確實編制職安圖說集量化費用那第三就是與勞動部合作提升公共工程職安"},{"start":4205.748,"end":4222.515,"text":"以及第四個職業安全項目納入金職獎的規定那我想先請教主委就是說這樣子的四個面向就是說在你就任之後有比較創新的地方嗎還是說都是沿用過去的一些作為"},{"start":4226.939,"end":4240.053,"text":"關於職安的問題是跟勞動部都是相關主管機關那因為工程會是公共工程的職業安全也可以去集合那目前我們"},{"start":4241.991,"end":4255.722,"text":"工程會的金職獎部分有很嚴格的要求對職安的部分那麼會這個扣分甚至有重大職安事件那這個就金職獎還會追回那這個金職獎是牽涉到這個"},{"start":4260.786,"end":4288.249,"text":"這個這些廠商他承攬下一階段公共工程能不能加分能不能夠旅業保證減半等等所以我們是相當重視職安這件事情所以把金子獎的評分把職安納入重要考量那這一次呢我想這個徵聘具有職安專長的委員來做實地集合或者是做查核呢應該是我們是"},{"start":4289.774,"end":4317.049,"text":"過去有這樣做嗎謝委員跟委員報告我們今年除了原聘一般都是兩位外聘的委員那如果這兩位委員就相關的類別如果沒有子安專長我們都增加一位那另外跟委員報告因為實際上我想相關規定都有但是工程會這邊就藉由如果你原來有不良履歷的廠商或是我這一次查核是高風險的工程我們就加重查核"},{"start":4317.449,"end":4335.508,"text":"那對職安事件也加重扣點那另外就是有關危險場所我們去的時候都會看廠商就是你有沒有在請前確實告知所以我想規定都有就是落實的問題那工程會這邊會會同勞眾部加重就是有關查核的部分謝謝委員"},{"start":4336.178,"end":4339.641,"text":"跟委員報告我們在工程查的時候增加那個職安專長委員就是新創的這是今年才開始推動的"},{"start":4355.052,"end":4371.296,"text":"今年年初的時候年初就開始了今年是1月份才開始那委員檢報第4點那個職安的項目納入金職獎規定那是去年我們7月政治在金職獎的辦法裡面去做修正的那就是一個就是派專家去協助職安專家去協助"},{"start":4373.337,"end":4396.852,"text":"其實我們還是比較用積極性的態度去來去教這些工地的這些廠商那子彈項目這個其實也是算是一種肯定讓他如果他能夠做好那他會有一些加分但是如果他有一些過去的一些重大子彈他也會被予以扣分就讓他量化比較客觀化去處理我們當然希望工程會有更積極的一個作為然後確實來落實我跟委員報告"},{"start":4398.173,"end":4413.387,"text":"整個工作環境是否容易造成這個一些意外當然要投入成本他的相關的保護措施這些都需要成本所以工程會將來呢在比較重大的這些公共建設的"},{"start":4414.828,"end":4431.725,"text":"審查過程會建立主辦機關就這個職安環境所必須的費用來調高納入預算讓業者承攬這個工程之後他才有這個預算可以把整個工作環境職業安全的防護做得比較好"},{"start":4432.586,"end":4453.122,"text":"那這個環境呢跟會直接影響職安是不是會發生的比例啊所以我們願意將來會要求這個機關在做預算的準備的時候這部分要納入要納入考量是好那當然在這方面如果我們的目標就是希望讓這個意外能夠降低甚至超"},{"start":4454.002,"end":4480.618,"text":"這個零意外的一個目標所以對於任何積極性的做法我們都是給予肯定的那我們也來看一個統計表就是在去年度跟前年度的這個重大職災的死亡人數在去年度是有稍微降低了一些那當然我們就剛如同我剛所說的我們希望盡量朝向零意外的一個目標因為畢竟每一個"},{"start":4481.238,"end":4499.078,"text":"每一條人命都是非常的珍貴我們也不希望這樣的意外發生所以除了剛剛這些就是我們剛剛說的這四個面向之外就主委您的就是想法裡面還有沒有更好的做法或更積極的作為"},{"start":4500.447,"end":4529.566,"text":"這個我們工程會陸續都派我們的這個相關人員到比較關於這個工作環境比較完善的國家比方說歐洲、德國跟日本都陸續派員出去參考他們的制度跟方法那這些我們會逐步的納入相關的我們的這些工作指引包括我剛才所提的預算希望機關來寬列這部分那才能夠有效降低這個職安發生的比例啦"},{"start":4530.146,"end":4538.597,"text":"完全是一個工作的環境還有一些平常廠商是否具備這方面的重視這個都要逐步的來推動"},{"start":4539.662,"end":4566.492,"text":"是 那就你們今天的這個郵報告的這個書面資料裡面本席有看到你有提到就是說要擴大履歷制度納入工程參與人員就是為了提升施工品質與安全要進一步建立公共工程參與人員的履歷我想請教一下就是說你要如何去落實這個把這個履歷制度延伸到工程人員層面"},{"start":4571.177,"end":4597.209,"text":"這個會不會有點實際跟我們現在有兩個履歷系統一個是施工廠商我們已經建置一個就是廠商的履歷計分制度一個履歷系統第二個是針對你參與相關公共工程的人員包括建築師那專業工程的品管工程師或是相關的工地主任我們目前也建置了這個相關人員的一個履歷支應系統以上報告"},{"start":4597.645,"end":4616.853,"text":"是 可是這樣子一個系統的一個建制就是說對於工程人員的一個履歷的建制如果說他們有相關的比如說職災或者是懲戒紀錄那我們要怎樣去限制他參與未來工程的這個就是競標之類 有可能嗎"},{"start":4620.775,"end":4641.215,"text":"這個主要是公司啦 履歷這個公司 那麼廠商呢 他在選商的時候機關在選商的時候 比方說評選那評選他可以根據這個履歷來打分數嘛那至於個人 個人他如果在有這些職案的事故他是否違反相關祭司法 那是可以懲處的"},{"start":4643.735,"end":4667.488,"text":"那當然就是說我們對於職安的安全我們就是希望能夠盡量朝向這個零意外的一個方向那也希望就是說在任何可以達到目標的一個政策我們都予以肯定那當然也要去考慮到就是實務跟我們的政策的理想性是不是可以就是符合的一個地方這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":4674.704,"end":4680.565,"text":"好 我們感謝陳樹業委員好 接下來我們邀請魯明哲委員發言好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委請陳主委陳主委您好"},{"start":4702.673,"end":4729.235,"text":"這個請教一下因為最近有看到你們這個說明發新聞稿但我想到在今年年初的時候特別在交通委員會針對你修法的一個內容曾經排過一個專案報告那我那時候也跟你討論這個我想說的委員針對說修法內容尤其是這個刪除三家這個第一次招標三家這樣的一個限制"},{"start":4730.035,"end":4750.739,"text":"我還記得你那時候是蠻多想法的也頗為堅持那當然因為我知道那不光是你啦在任何修法的過程中任何機關它都有很多醞釀的過程很多收集訊息的過程很多跟產業界溝通的過程但我覺得從今天我們1月5號到4月10號將近四個月的時間"},{"start":4755.655,"end":4778.384,"text":"聽到答案啦 答案就是 喔 這個先不做了那我也覺得很奇怪啊 因為你當時講的說包括美國 歐盟啊 都沒這樣的一個標準包括很多很多的那個理由啊 是不是不見了那我也看到你的報告特別想啊 特別說這一陣子啊 當然預告期嘛 聽聽大家意見 是第二階段聽嘛"},{"start":4779.324,"end":4799.988,"text":"那各界建設性的觀點我的天啊以前我們覺得你覺得那個建設性觀點形成了這個的改變它最主要你在業界凝聚了哪幾個建設性的觀點把你1月5號曾經得諸位說的一些論點把它改變了麻煩你簡要說明一下"},{"start":4802.699,"end":4830.035,"text":"其實我們採購法的修正過程醞釀很久了那也都含詢各機關就是辦採購的機關大致上都沒有什麼反對意見那麼也去拜訪跟這個相關的工協會這個相關工會大概除了少部分一些修正之外沒有什麼特別的意見所以我們嘗試去做預告"},{"start":4831.176,"end":4855.758,"text":"預告的部分回來也是贊成則居多啦但是後來沒想到這個被聚焦在三家改為一家認為這個是要圖利廠商甚至認為工程會這個叫放水那這個指責就太大了這個指責太大那我們認為與其這樣子的"},{"start":4858.28,"end":4880.529,"text":"跟部分人士的意見相左應推啊那不如我們這個在在更凝聚各界贊成的意見因為贊成的意見呢比聲音比較小這機關啊我們這個工程會修法的內容所以那另外呢我們的確很認真的在想是不是三家改為一家的確會造成某些這個缺口"},{"start":4881.129,"end":4909.212,"text":"或是某些執行上機關如果有些不效的機關辦理採購人員造成他的方便所以我們也虛心的認為我們必須來認真思考陳主委其實這個各界的意見當天大概我聽到非常非常多的委員大概已經幫你蒐集了相關的意見我記得我那天特別說了三家如果變成一家第一次就可以招標"},{"start":4910.734,"end":4925.462,"text":"在效率上我覺得有兩種人非常開心第一個是優質廠商他不要被卡這麼久我就只有幾家可以做這樣的大的工程被卡到那個預算都要調幾倍那第二個開心的就是劣質廠商哇"},{"start":4926.042,"end":4940.091,"text":"以前要喬辦天華這一支一支搞定所以確實有困難是可以理解的但我想請問一下我看到你們4月10號你們的一個新聞稿回覆特別講了第二段最後幾個字"},{"start":4941.744,"end":4963.847,"text":"你會持續整合意見就整體影響進行長期的配套評估充分凝聚共識在這個推行修法的一個程序因為坦白講因為過去看到有任何單位新聞稿這個部分就是不是進入修法期就法律進入休眠期休眠期"},{"start":4965.249,"end":4981.223,"text":"你現在是包括其他的部分 你現在就要長期評估你現在大概什麼時候會提出方案你們要先送行政院 你有沒有什麼樣一個三家這個部分排除掉這樣的一個情況之下有沒有一個時間表還是真的進入休眠期"},{"start":4981.843,"end":5010.87,"text":"因為這次修法條文非常多啦那有些要修法的內容也是來自於大院的建議啦在本委員會的這個建議那被聚焦在三家改為一家這個是相當可惜啦所以我們寧可把這個各界的意見凝聚好了之後再來辦理我們預計希望能夠在今年年底之前把這些工作做好之後那麼會重新預告啦"},{"start":5011.758,"end":5033.003,"text":"好這個主委其實剛剛我們平常一般人的擔心確實三家變一家因為現在你就覺得我們有很多的防弊機制有時候那個標案我們說真的我講真的大家全民都看不下去你看看這個3月26號27號一下出來兩個新聞我都覺得很離譜當然這中間到底有什麼採購法或者相關的一個採購制度法規面"},{"start":5040.965,"end":5069.359,"text":"是不是有缺漏第二個是到底人發生問題再來第四個是流程 檢核 集合 驗收到底是發生什麼問題警用房貸背心是拼裝貨我覺得這很離譜這不是個案它從2019年弄到2022年才發生這個事情當然講說這是業管單位的事情 驗中單位的事情可是你知道嗎"},{"start":5070.299,"end":5084.958,"text":"警政署 移民署 校政署 台灣銀行 防彈備心全部跨單位 跨機構我坦白講工程會如果你沒有跨單位去用心的話你真的今天感覺說防彈備心"},{"start":5087.02,"end":5104.671,"text":"各位 這個 主委我們所有的員警同仁穿上了防彈背心他覺得很安心他這份信任不是來自於這個廠商他是信任這個國家的制度信任工程會採購法一定可以給我們"},{"start":5105.692,"end":5123.501,"text":"非常有Quality對不對Qualify很棒的能夠保護我們生命的結果你到最後答案一撥出來像現在有些案子正在準備起訴我說真的啊你還沒判決保固期已經過了準備換下一件了像這樣的真的很離譜耶可以"},{"start":5124.221,"end":5153.381,"text":"改製造日期可以沒有防水的功能可以提供假的檢測報告然後非原廠的一個證明書然後可以七稿八稿弄完這個我是覺得這個請問一下是哪一個處還是哪個單位我先問一下這個2019年他上網招標嘛那剛開始標了大家也穿了不知道發生什麼事了我請問一下2020年2021年沒有東昌事發之前這個廠商的履歷"},{"start":5154.502,"end":5163.62,"text":"好不好啊在你們的1.3萬家這兩家廠商的履歷是不是優良廠商啊你們要注意這件事啊"},{"start":5164.69,"end":5186.379,"text":"我跟你講你們累積了10年1.3萬目前你們的資料庫有兩廠商像這個廠商你們回去查啦我回去自己查如果你這樣子搞一個大烏龍大笑話你說那個是廠結果後面的人看到2020年 2021年又要找這輛防彈背心終於找到我們工程會認定的"},{"start":5188.4,"end":5214.06,"text":"優良廠商 履歷很棒的我覺得這個你們要特別注意那下面像陸軍這個26套反制系統因為我都不知道為什麼這麼多渣男廠商他跟這些這麼厲害這麼厲害我跟你講很多真的技術到位的一個廠商他也說根本不敢去標你知道嗎他覺得很深啊這個要去招標到驗收到領到錢這真不容易啊"},{"start":5214.66,"end":5216.142,"text":"所以我們本來政府採購法修正裡面要擴大停權範圍就是要解決這些渣男廠商的問題"},{"start":5233.191,"end":5251.848,"text":"我們其中有一個修法是要針對比方說你去公司更名或者是同一個治安人他登記了很多家公司過去是沒有管制的我們再透過修法來擴大停權範圍就是要解決碰到這種渣男廠商的問題而且這個問題也是大院一再要求的"},{"start":5252.328,"end":5276.055,"text":"其實這個我想這真的非常嚴重因為你一件事情起頭根本沒有做好後面所謂的審計監察司法調查我覺得都是後面在補強重點是穿著這樣的完全不合格過期的這些遠景同仁你知道他們現在身上我想我們朝偉在這邊他們身上超多自己買的東西你知道嗎"},{"start":5277.535,"end":5282.488,"text":"我說奇怪我就問了警政署就有相關的配備你幹嘛要買這個買那個你知道嗎"},{"start":5284.946,"end":5310.276,"text":"唯一的特色 奇怪我們招標的都特別貴但是品質沒有特別好那我結論就這樣子政府採購法我覺得很多問題但是三大問題現在看到這麼多的一個情況你的檢核驗收的制度失靈這些假的證明假的原廠證明到最後有沒有一個回溯追蹤的制度我拿那個證明對不對我不要等到"},{"start":5311.076,"end":5327.523,"text":"司法調查才發現嘛這證明是不是說好 OK我怎麼看得懂他造假的他回溯到原廠寄給原廠或者我不太清楚現在在各個機關有沒有這種double check的一個制度也不能讓你行政院公共工程委員會說幫我判讀嘛"},{"start":5329.364,"end":5358.086,"text":"我倒是覺得已經招標完成了好一切照制度走但是有些相關重要的發生這麼多次對不對包括檢驗包括相關你覺得我覺得要一個回溯去跟原單位去追蹤的一個機制那包括你黑名單派出機制這個我已經說了很多次還有現在的罰則旅遊管理我看到你修法很多啦我們是希望你最後做個結論啦好不好修法之後你希望預期怎麼樣"},{"start":5359.963,"end":5385.758,"text":"我們把過去這些讓這些不好的廠商有機會一再的投機得標這些路啊都要把他把他這個擋起來啦那相關的問題我們希望有機會在政府採購法裡面做修正而且獲得這個大院的支持好謝謝主席好好我們感謝魯明哲委員"},{"start":5387.591,"end":5404.47,"text":"接下來我們邀請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席 邀請我們陳金德主委好 請陳主委"},{"start":5410.413,"end":5424.214,"text":"委員長主委我想這幾天新聞媒體的一個很重要的新聞就是我們國民黨的鄭麗文主席跟中共的國家主席習近平會面"},{"start":5425.996,"end":5447.095,"text":"那會面完之後大陸這邊馬上釋出善意說要給臺灣十項禮物包含推動福岸沿海地區金門馬祖通水通電通氣通橋增進金馬地區的社會福利還有相關的一些建設福利的福祉主委知道這個新聞嗎"},{"start":5448.483,"end":5477.348,"text":"我大概有稍微看一下好那主委那有一個很重要的議題就是金下大橋這個是中國大陸一直在倡議的一個建設那尤其廈門這一頭已經在2023年在中國已經片面的一個動工那這一次這個政協會又被拿出來炒作我想這個工程會是我們主管國家重要建設的一個重要的一個單位主委認為這個金下大橋可行性"},{"start":5478.268,"end":5490.145,"text":"是不是會造成國家安全的一個危害請主委說明報告委員那這個是一個高度政治性的議題那當然鋪橋造路"},{"start":5495.001,"end":5520.223,"text":"也是好事但是前提是要一個兩邊都是一個友善平等的互信互惠的國家跟國家之間的關係那如果對岸他是基於民眾的福祉那麼也確保這個兩岸這個對等主權的這樣的態度之下來做這件事情那當然是好事如果變成一個提供這個"},{"start":5522.125,"end":5551.54,"text":"目前這個軍機圍繞啦什麼這個武統這些都政策跟實際作為都還沒有改變的狀況之下那我想這個對國家安全必須慎重考量好因為我想除了這個之外啦他們也針對農業漁業開放我想也釋出了他們的認為的善意但是我昨天在跑行程的時候我們很多的農民朋友跟市民朋友也跟我講說那些都騙人的啦"},{"start":5552.02,"end":5575.618,"text":"因為過去也有曾經開放過這樣的一個例子結果到最後空頭支票一張 八拉票一頂所以我覺得我們應該要審慎評估這樣的一個方案那誠如剛剛主委講的 這個是一個高度政治的一個風險的一個工程那未來可不可行 我想工程會是不是有能夠做這樣一個專業的一個建議 有沒有這個思考"},{"start":5577.196,"end":5603.333,"text":"工程會是主管我們國內的公共工程這個外國的公共工程大概管不到管不到啦主委管不到但是你認為這個不過我可以舉一個例子啦就是金門的水它也是在福建、廈門那邊也不能來但我實際去看了之後那個水還是原水啦就是還沒有經過處理"},{"start":5605.234,"end":5627.815,"text":"所以金門的水基本上還是透過海水淡化或者是相關的這個水利設施那麼比較大部分啦那尤其是中國目前的政府制度之下呢那一切都是為政治啦不管是農業啦不管交流都一切都是以政治為目的嘛"},{"start":5628.716,"end":5654.871,"text":"主委比較客氣啦 我認為是統政為目的啦 這個不一樣好 主委 那撇開這個問題啦我想還是要麻煩主委來關心一下屏東的重大建設主委 我想我們的高屏二塊跟高鐵南沿這兩個案子也感謝主委的大力幫忙那過去 包含從交通部也好 國安會也好我想主委也都用這樣子的一個協調的一個角色能夠加快時程 主委"},{"start":5655.151,"end":5673.263,"text":"那高屏二塊目前原本預計今年要動工那因為卡在總預算的關係那目前工程會有沒有安排要擇期現勘審查或者有沒有相關的一個進度請主委說明一下那個他其中有一個優先要做的路段西萬彪是不是"},{"start":5673.903,"end":5682.305,"text":"有一個是最近才把基本設計送到工程會我們會先建立審查委員還有做初審我們會儘速而且優先的來完成基本設計的審查"},{"start":5694.506,"end":5712.838,"text":"主委這個我還是要再提醒你一件事情因為我記得我們行政院主委院長有到屏東來視察這個工程的時候原本是預定今年的6月就要動工了那後來因為相關的一個審查的一個機制所以延到9月這個目標有沒有改變時間會不會影響"},{"start":5714.98,"end":5736.169,"text":"我們儘速來審查啦因為才剛送來而已那我們審查之後希望能夠讓這個施工能夠今年能是不是能能夠上我能夠進行招標作業啦注意這些拜託你啦我們加快其成好那另外針對高鐵的部分南沿屏東部分主委有沒有最新的一個進度"},{"start":5738.745,"end":5759.042,"text":"目前高鐵延伸屏東的部分在進行環評當中那這個環評的這個報告持續都會在追蹤那麼也會召會來了解我們希望能夠整個競速來推動高鐵延伸屏東的這件事情"},{"start":5760.129,"end":5774.936,"text":"我想這個也是我們過去一直以來我們大家一起來努力的一個目標那尤其謝謝諸位運營專業來協調扮演這個協調的一個角色所以這高鐵南沿宜蘭跟屏東一樣重要一起來推動"},{"start":5777.263,"end":5795.797,"text":"那另外我想針對一個這個目前我們這個公共工程還有我們工程專業人力缺工的問題我想這也是主委很在意的一個事情那我有最近有看到主委到花東地區為了這個土木工程學分班來揭牌那這也是工程會第一個辦的一個學分班"},{"start":5796.577,"end":5813.927,"text":"每個學分一千塊這個是市價的四分之一那取得學分之後並符合國考資格會再退一半的費用我想諸位的用心就是要解決我們目前土木專業人力的一個缺口那其實尤其我知道像我們現在很多高普考考試"},{"start":5815.608,"end":5841.557,"text":"這個開放名額之後就有報導報導率很低啊尤其有的年輕人像我們怡德這個副主委一樣我們以前在縣政府的時候不得不三個月就有民間後遺了因為公務部門的工作繁重民意代表壓力很大到民間薪水比較高壓力沒那麼大主委那有沒有可能在我們南部高屏地區也來開這樣的一個分班解決我們人的缺口因為土木"},{"start":5842.597,"end":5857.424,"text":"工程院很缺乏啦 而且高考 國考報到率很低那尤其是東部尤其是台東花蓮所以報到率也相對低 現在南部也很燙耶然後花東地區的大學都沒有土木系"},{"start":5858.224,"end":5883.597,"text":"所的設置啊所以我們才想到說會解決尤其是台東跟花蓮所以剛好在花蓮謝謝那個國營台灣鐵路公司借了一個場地在花蓮車站火車站這裡那跟宜蘭大學合作由宜蘭大學跟工程會來合辦這個學分班除了土木專業之外還有加上我們工程會也有一些採購啦或者是相關的"},{"start":5884.978,"end":5898.904,"text":"學相關的這個課程也在那裡那麼獲得很大的迴響那麼136個左右來報名那當然相關其他偏遠地區工程會也會持續來考量"},{"start":5900.516,"end":5927.959,"text":"主委那個南部部分再拜託這個優先來處理因為我們現在南部尤其我們郡縣委員我們台南以南現在很多重大工程那你現在沒有專業人才工程是要做下去的金錢就沒得當了對但是這個我們都有透過預算因為現在今年也沒有預算所以以後如果能夠編列的話我們當然很樂意到偏遠地區來設置這樣的所以主委不好意思講總預算還是要趕快過才有錢可以用"},{"start":5929.07,"end":5954.485,"text":"好 那謝謝主席 我在最後一分鐘針對我想這個釐清的一個問題我還是要拜託主委來幫忙那尤其目前我們有很多的這個道路的鋪設跟修補在進行但受到美伊戰爭的影響 釐清的價格嚴重飆漲從這個今年三月份 每公噸從一萬六千二漲到兩萬五千塊漲幅高達六成"},{"start":5955.225,"end":5972.372,"text":"那每公噸的濾清混凝土從2100淘到2300那像台南高雄屏東都面臨這樣一個缺濾清的一個問題甚至有傳出濾清的存量不足主委這個有沒有人為的一個因素或者是你們有調查什麼原因嗎"},{"start":5973.24,"end":5989.795,"text":"因為做柏油的原油來源大概來自中東了因為它是一種含環碗氫比較多的這個原油啦那因為中東戰爭嘛所以進來量就比較少所以能夠做柏油的就是台灣中油跟"},{"start":5991.016,"end":6012.48,"text":"台塑集團的台塑化那麼他們這個原油來得少那自然生產柏油就少那柏油少做瀝青就少那麼自然而然當然這個就缺料然後漲價就工程會而言我們認為如果是這種情形之下呢相關的公共工程可以有涉及物調的我們都認為應該這個"},{"start":6016.341,"end":6034.398,"text":"廠商跟再建工程的機關可以合一來物調那工期也可以展演不過我了解目前這個柏油的供應已經不是問題了因為台塑化它有兩條就是這個煉油的製程一個是煉製輕油一個是煉製這個"},{"start":6037.521,"end":6065.604,"text":"相關柏友這個製程他已經調高這個煉製的比例了調高煉製比例另外呢銷售銷售這個柏友的這個中塑公司中塑公司是台塑化的子公司那因為他本來在國外就有一些契約廠商固定每一個月一個月大概一萬公噸那我們這個卓院長也希望國內的這個廠商以供應國內的需求"},{"start":6067.166,"end":6095.125,"text":"優先啦謝謝台塑化跟中塑也非常配合那麼都採取這樣的一個動作那中油呢台灣中油陸續在市場上來採購這個現貨啦那採購現貨如果有了這個柏油啦那採購現貨之後呢也可以供應國內需求那麼根據我目前三個禮拜所掌握的資料那麼力清的供應的原料柏油啊供應已經沒有問題"},{"start":6096.305,"end":6125.116,"text":"好 這個案子也要麻煩我們主委來幫忙應該要進行跨部會的一個協調那確保我們國內的力清純亮不要讓我們所有的這個公共工程受到影響好 謝謝好 我們謝謝徐副委員另外也先跟大家報告待會萬美玲委員發言完畢我們休息十分鐘好 接下來我們邀請陳清榮委員發言"},{"start":6136.869,"end":6142.734,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請我們陳經德陳主委好 請陳主委好 謝謝委員長好 主委長那這邊我們今天的一個報告我們最主要有很大的一個重點在討論到我們花蓮馬太安溪的財後重建"},{"start":6164.893,"end":6180.404,"text":"那這個部分我想在報告裡面 主委這邊有一個簡要的說明那也告訴了我們可以在我們災後戶員重建專區這樣的一個網頁網站裡面也可以來看到各項的計畫"},{"start":6186.755,"end":6205.571,"text":"那從去年招待到現在我們看到的產出招人看到民間的一個動力但是我看到我們的報告我們總共編列了270億的一個特別預算那目前八個部會提出了39項的計畫其實這些計畫"},{"start":6210.134,"end":6232.541,"text":"我們現在報行政院來核准從網站的資料從報告的資料是4月2號才陸續核定所以我們現在在這個網頁重建專區裡面看到的也只有核准的公文跟核准的計畫那這個部分我跟你講那個不用急主委很簡單我"},{"start":6234.642,"end":6259.539,"text":"需要我們工程會這邊把我們現在執行財後重建的各個計畫的進度可能目前碰到的一個狀況或困難需要怎麼樣來解決處理的這樣的一個報告一個資料能夠詳細的提供給本席就好好沒問題好不好一個禮拜之內好不好好沒問題好那就麻煩我們主委這邊"},{"start":6260.8,"end":6277.946,"text":"第二個我想主委不只是我們工程會的主委也是我們的政府委員那對目前內政部國土署有關土方這樣的一個措施其實從年初宣布到現在問題已止了"},{"start":6280.367,"end":6303.201,"text":"沒有解決 不解決啦 困難要趕快 困難要趕快那最重要的已經應用了我們地方的公共工程這個公共工程也包括我們中央這個營建的廢棄土 公共的廢棄土沒有出戶 沒有出戶它延伸了這些土房不曉得要到哪裡去第二個 能夠處理的價格"},{"start":6305.862,"end":6335.342,"text":"就飆漲價格飆漲那這個部分我想說影響到公共工程的一個部分那還有價格土方處理價格的飆漲這樣的一個部分我們公共工程委員會這邊有沒有任何的一個因應的一個方式你來協調內政部有沒有協調各個地方政府有沒有來協調怎麼來處理第一個因應價格的一個"},{"start":6336.883,"end":6353.497,"text":"第二個土方沒有地方去那怎麼來處理是不是請主委做個報告報告委員這裡面就是說長期以來營建剩餘土石化跟營建剩餘廢棄物被混著一起討論了"},{"start":6355.979,"end":6374.626,"text":"所以營建生意土磁窗它是可用的資源我認同我同意被誤解為廢棄物對因為有夾雜一些比方說在營建過程當中的木材 塑膠那個才是廢棄物廢棄物就按照室內廢棄物處理營建生意土磁窗分了V1到V6"},{"start":6375.686,"end":6404.725,"text":"那是有用的資料還是可以去化的我了解 所以我們才會有A B C嘛所以我們希望在B的一個戰車廠可以做一些處理過去的設計呢這個雲間剩餘土石房呢A到B嘛那它直接到C的時候那邊的相關規定比較嚴格現在就是A B C A到B B到C就是說它能夠直接去去化的去處啊那現在A到C C就有問題嘛"},{"start":6405.886,"end":6412.836,"text":"這在西的去處不足不夠嘛不足還有一些法規法規的問題 我在這啦重點是這整個去處的問題也困擾我們台中市嘛台中市最主要要放在台中港嘛比方說喔 報告員比方說台中的土方"},{"start":6423.51,"end":6429.452,"text":"那個地方大概都是土石 沙灘啦那根本就是 那個根本是有用的東西那是資材喔對 所以呢你如果把它當作是廢棄物來看待的話還要進土資場 然後再篩分 再出去是浪費一個時間所以那個是直接可以賣給砂石廠的對台中的了解 對台中土層的一個了解"},{"start":6447.176,"end":6463.755,"text":"我謙卑主意 暫時怎麼樣還是要有去處啦那目前的一個方案就是要放在台中港目前台中港的包括港務局跟台中市政府其實就港務局能夠 它是負責提供土地嘛"},{"start":6464.915,"end":6476.079,"text":"整個那個土方的一個區處管理還有港區有很多他自己本身的限制條件包括你車要賣給他才有的這個大型車輛不能進入啦還有他有"},{"start":6481.841,"end":6507.603,"text":"牽涉到南端跟北端嘛有的要換坪 等等很多崗位要注意這個部分 我們工程會這邊 內政部這邊跟港務局跟台中市政府 你們有好好去合作嗎目前全部大概有台北港啦 還有高雄高雄港這本來就一個南興計畫我現在問你台中港啦 你告訴我台中港 你不要告訴我台北港台中部的部分喔台中部的部分"},{"start":6509.224,"end":6510.065,"text":"台中港是一個新的天然氣接收站"},{"start":6526.359,"end":6549.365,"text":"填海 這個要經過相關的計劃對 如果要填海 這些廢棄土能不能填海 這些相關規則我今天問你大眾港這個問題就是說這牽涉到我們因為土方的處置新制的一個產生的影響現在推出來的方案就是暫除"},{"start":6550.505,"end":6568.556,"text":"暫存在台中港那目前完全沒有進度嘛完全沒有進度嘛所以在這樣沒有進度的時候我也提出一個方案就是這個方案就是是不是公部門跟私部門可以直接來交換"},{"start":6570.777,"end":6594.799,"text":"就是我們這裡有公共工程,我們也有民間的工程你曉得主要說,台中的土豐,除了營建、賣氣、物,不要說整個土豐開發下去都是好的歷史、好的材料如果我們公共工程有需要,民間的營建工程要有它的出入,是不是啊?"},{"start":6595.419,"end":6624.318,"text":"可以來中介來做這樣的平台就是公部門跟私部門 不用說是吸直接需求跟供給能夠直接來出平台公對私 公對公 私對私 一步一步來做這樣可以生很多興奮 而且直接來協助解決而且這樣的一個方案 就有從媒體的一個報導"},{"start":6625.439,"end":6642.262,"text":"我看到台南目前就這樣做因為有發布新聞報 因為這樣做如果台南這樣做 我們工程會也OK 大家都OK是不是專攻 有機會來這樣做這個就是去土跟虛土機關的交換了"},{"start":6642.622,"end":6663.652,"text":"所以這個交換本的制度就存在那各縣市政府呢他也可以成立土方銀行來收或者是去化這個是也是地方政府就台中市來講我有知道我們有公營的利益就是那個公營的土資廠對土資廠但是就沒辦法跟班解決問題嘛我現在提出的就是說有"},{"start":6665.373,"end":6672.45,"text":"由政府 地方政府 那跟我們中央這邊啊大家一起來推動 讓它變一個一個很好的制度化"},{"start":6675.427,"end":6698.328,"text":"我們期待是這樣嘛,台南都OK啊,我們潮州阿關、潮汐台南都做到這麼好,是不是有機會?好,另外一個重點就是,潮州阿關有聽到魯明哲議員有提到濾清的問題嘛,濾清的問題也牽涉到我們地方的公共工程,不是跟你同樣的"},{"start":6699.589,"end":6714.907,"text":"大型的公共工程 地方的小型工程啊 給人家齁我過去齁 我要不來日本營啊 兩國會前更衣的案 肯定更衣的案在台中市中更衣的案 真的不像剛才的問題都說欸 委員 真的你錢有問題啊 土方不只沒氣出"},{"start":6720.373,"end":6721.073,"text":"所有地方基層基礎的建設款"},{"start":6750.833,"end":6751.254,"text":"謝謝陳其農委員的質詢"},{"start":6778.05,"end":6788.774,"text":"接著我們請萬美玲委員來質詢 謝謝謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委有請陳主委 那萬美玲委員質詢 我們休息10分鐘 謝謝委員長"},{"start":6798.426,"end":6818.985,"text":"主委早主委我想根據花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別條例我們很清楚知道主管機關是行政院公共工程委員會就您這裡那本席也看到在工程會的業報當中施政成果跟重點你第一點就寫到是統籌災後復建重建深入災區強化協調 對嗎"},{"start":6822.97,"end":6849.351,"text":"主委剛剛報告當中我也聽到馬太安西燕色湖災後重建中央協調匯報是由陳主委擔任執行秘書每個月都會定期操開這個協調匯報來統合跨部會的資源協力推動災後災區重建的工作而且您也說到說工程會已經依馬太安重建條例第十一條規定建置這個重建的專區那確保民眾可以及時因為大家都很關心嘛"},{"start":6849.771,"end":6867.092,"text":"即時獲取正確完整的資訊那麼公開的內容我想是不是請主委看一下這個就是專區嗎這個是專區的內容嗎我是不是請負責的主管沒有主委先回答一下沒有錯吧因為應該是啦我從你的官網上拉下來的嘛"},{"start":6869.714,"end":6888.876,"text":"就這一個 就這個部分 因為這是你官網就沒有意義啦所以你也不要那麼緊張喔 我們就來看一下喔你看喔 現在在這個光復堤防一標 二標 三標的部分 大家都完成了但是在導流堤保護工的這個部分 實際進度其實只有36%跟7%然後你看 你的預定完工要在4月18號 可能嗎"},{"start":6892.684,"end":6904.654,"text":"跟委員報告這個是水利署那時候資料填錯那我們同仁有發現之後已經請那個水利署水利署資料給錯好 主委他們登記錯誤所以我們同仁發現請他再不好意思喔 這個是你們的專區耶"},{"start":6906.4,"end":6916.324,"text":"這是你們的官網專區你賴到水利署去這樣有對嗎?業務是水利署在執行當然是業務是水利署在執行所以你看這個應該這麼講就是說你是要負責協調然後配合督導考核等等的可是在你的官網上面資料嚴重錯誤按照你講嚴重錯誤我們來看到你所提的這個水利署"},{"start":6928.849,"end":6944.526,"text":"你看訊息就要來了如果按照你剛剛所說的進度還這麼落後甚至於這個下游才7%這是很可怕的事情所以其實是本席去問了水利署說你們的進度怎麼會這樣水利署才說沒有我們的進度很好我們來看下一張簡報我們來看到這個導流題的進度下一張"},{"start":6952.734,"end":6976.026,"text":"現在這個進度在這個馬太安溪你們自己的官網上面有寫到上游是36.2%那下游是7.78%然後呢這個水利署給我們的這個資料是其實它已經在上游完成了85%下游是72%那水利署的部分也告訴我們說沒有啊它是這樣子跟你們回報的啊就你們資料現在弄錯在這裡答詢還要賴給水利署怎麼對啊"},{"start":6978.423,"end":6996.997,"text":"整個水利工程在第一二三標的堤防就是這個藍邊的這個主要的高規格堤防會如期來完成主委我跟您報告喔這個部分呢是因為我們發現了這個地方我們去跟水利署詢問才發現水利署很認真在做工程的進度現在也如期"},{"start":6997.637,"end":7012.522,"text":"但是我覺得既然我們工程會是一個協調、審核的機關你怎麼可以在官網上面的數字這麼隨便我覺得這個可能要請同仁再加強要用心一點這個我們來改進這是弄錯了對不對是不是至少要知道現在有沒有錯錯在哪裡如果本席提出這樣的數據你都還不知道這就更可怕了一點"},{"start":7026.451,"end":7054.117,"text":"正確的已經在官網上主委你知道正確的怎麼會在官網上嗎也是今天早上才改的啊你今天早上才改的也就是說你昨天的進度都還7%今天就可以今天就可以來到72%所以我請業務主管來跟你說明好不好不用說明了這很清楚就是弄錯了那我覺得主委如果有弄錯官網上面的東西其實很重要從這個小地方也可以看得出來其實大家嚴謹度謹慎度不夠所以我希望主委能夠督導一下那"},{"start":7055.017,"end":7055.617,"text":"主委 你自己剛剛在報告最後也有提到說"},{"start":7087.519,"end":7104.054,"text":"台灣鐵路地下化這個進度有的是過去有些改善有些跟原計畫有一些更動那麼有些修正計畫那主委知道為什麼有這些更動嗎這是地方提出來的不是啦 主委"},{"start":7105.075,"end":7126.809,"text":"我覺得你既然是要督導這些公共工程就要很了解到底發生什麼事情嘛你當然是地方提出來為什麼會提出來因為中央的工程延宕了嘛這個發包的工程是在中央那我們過去有各種問題不管是這個缺工缺料不管是疫情不管是我們看到有文資保存等等但是工程呢就是在中央督導之下去延宕了所以我們才會有變更計畫那變更計畫出來了以後呢我們現在有一個變更計畫的預算還躺在行政院啊"},{"start":7132.813,"end":7149.274,"text":"所以現在是預算沒有下來 地方當然就不能動嘛所以這個大概769億的預算始終沒有核定我是在想 這也是屬於我們現在最大的困難就在這個地方是不是主委可以跟行政院這邊趕快催促一下我們這個核定計畫可以趕快核下來給我們 可以嗎"},{"start":7151.842,"end":7163.996,"text":"行政院正在審核當中因為相關 八個月了 全國的軌道建設經費非常龐大那有些這個根據今年度的根據這個"},{"start":7167.02,"end":7180.341,"text":"財政收支方法的編列有牽涉到未來的計劃型補助跟一般型補助的比例所以行政院向來就是很慎重那麼在調解當中那我們會盡速那麼來完成這個審議"},{"start":7181.843,"end":7198.658,"text":"您剛剛說我們要解決幫忙各機關去解決困難就是要知道它困難在哪裡您說的其實本席不認同啦我想上一次院長在跟我提到財化法的時候我當場也有跟他講其實這個跟財化法並沒有很大的關係為什麼我要這樣子講第一個呢過去財化法還沒有開始的時候其實進度就是嚴重延宕那個延宕才產生了變更計畫當中多出來的預算這是第一個第二個我們都知道"},{"start":7208.947,"end":7236.05,"text":"這個中央鐵道的這個工程是歸中央來這個這個掌管喔那本來就是應該中央來協助地方嘛那再來呢我們財化法這件事情講到我都講嘴破不想再講了財化法這個東西不管是以前賴清德在做這個地方首長的時候或者是現在大家都知道要擬平地方跟中央財政的一個缺口或讓它更平衡所以這個財化法從以前到現在民進黨也好國民黨也好大家都認為是要修的所以不要把工程的延宕又講到財化法再來"},{"start":7237.651,"end":7243.313,"text":"再來我再告訴你一個問題再來我再告訴你一個問題再來我再告訴你一個問題你是要講還是要聽啊沒有修成這樣啊你不用聽喔不是我們在質詢你不要聽怎麼知道我要問什麼問題啊我有在聽那你現在要聽還是要講大家不要用這種方式來打詢好不好這種方式打詢不好啦我們要把問題聽清楚嘛"},{"start":7259.793,"end":7274.866,"text":"你認為是才化法但是這個問題呢院長提出來的時候我有跟他溝通他也沒有再這麼堅持那再來呢我剛剛提到鐵路這個軌道的這個建設尤其是我們鐵路地下化是中央需辦事項那你知道嗎你剛剛講到才化法那我們就來講嘛"},{"start":7276.087,"end":7302.654,"text":"我們現在那個萬大樹林線二期喔然後再來高雄小港陵園線它的追加經費的這個變更計畫也過啦不但過了 中央還分攤的比例還更多那這是怎麼樣 這是因為看黨派嗎我一直不想這樣子講欸對不對 建設是國家的建設啦誰都有可能來桃園做到鐵路地下化的成果嘛那為什麼我們這個萬大樹林線的二期跟高雄小港陵園線就可以合訂呢"},{"start":7304.268,"end":7326.184,"text":"這個整個鐵道建設軌道建設全國非常多啦這裡1000例那裡2000例那裡900億整個中央整個行政院必須統籌來評估啦那至於台灣鐵路地下化沒有什麼黨派他從過去就提出來嘛鄭文燦當八年台灣市長努力爭取調高了很多這個相關的預算這個都是歷史"},{"start":7326.664,"end":7330.011,"text":"所以行政院不會特別考量現在誰當市長或者是當市長所以我只是說錢的問題那行政院在審議當中"},{"start":7336.24,"end":7362.83,"text":"那跟過去誰提出來財化法要修沒有相關是嘛那財化法是你剛剛提的嘛現在你又說沒有相關我要講啦這個是鄭文燦市長當時啊也上來跟國發會很認真的去爭取希望中央的比例能夠負擔更多一點嘛所以我們也很謝謝鄭文燦市長啊所以沒有再分藍綠嘛但現在的問題就在於既然其他我們有重大的公共工程尤其是交通工程我們在變更計畫跟經費的增加上面我們都有核定"},{"start":7363.59,"end":7384.601,"text":"主委我們這個鐵路地下化這個追加預算已經提出來八個月了八個月了那到底是什麼情況你也幫我們關心一下嘛站在你的立場你幫我們關心一下可不可以這個我們會了解啦只是我跟您報告就是說全國的軌道竟然非常多然後有的修正計畫一再修正也有審議相當久的桃園並不是特例啦"},{"start":7384.821,"end":7398.872,"text":"哪一個比桃園8個月更久你告訴我我會去看哪一個我會去看你在這邊都提出來說有更久的表示你知道啊那如果你不知道就是在這邊亂說一通是不是所以哪一個嘛我不會亂說哪一項計畫比我們更久你告訴我我不會亂說啦哪一項計畫呢我會去查"},{"start":7400.304,"end":7424.958,"text":"怎麼可以這樣 你根本都不知道 你就在這邊搪塞全國重大預算 修正的不是 主委 應該這樣講嘛你自己跟我說 其實喔這個五月的預算 八個月不算久 有很多比我們更久那你胸有成竹的講出來 現在在備詢 你就應該要告訴我是哪一個更久 如果這是一個常態 那我們吞下來它如果不是一個常態 為什麼桃園要等待特別久呢你知道這種交通黑暗期 對我們桃園那真的是 我們所有的市民苦不堪言啊"},{"start":7426.872,"end":7439.341,"text":"所以哪一個呢 哪一個計畫比我們更久 你告訴我我會去了解再跟委員報告什麼時候什麼時候可以跟我回覆我們全國來這個整個調整 來整個來審全國現在才下去了解 然後你跟我講有"},{"start":7440.492,"end":7467.783,"text":"我們會提供給你啦到底有還是沒有嘛我們去查所以你不知道你剛剛還告訴我說其實有比我們更久的主委不可以這樣啦真的不可以這樣我建議把答詢的態度改變一下有就是有 沒有就是沒有要再查就是要再查你不可以告訴我說你桃園八個月不算久核定還沒下來也不算什麼你不可以這樣子啦我希望答詢的態度經費不算少啦所以不像說一般工程能夠立即的核定"},{"start":7468.823,"end":7484.376,"text":"所以行政院我們沒有立即合定啊八個月了我們沒有立即合定我們也是覺得應該慢慢談但是八個月了所以主委你願意為我們桃園鐵路地下化向行政院發聲一下嗎我一直在注意桃園鐵路地下化的工作我們一再同意修正計畫"},{"start":7486.172,"end":7505.709,"text":"那如果您再也同意而且一再的修正一再的增加修正已經最後計畫送出去了已經送出去了那時就是在行政院這麼久沒有再修正過了所以呢您剛也說您同意來協助那就拜託您是不是可以跟院長講一下到底問題在哪裡要不然趕快核定給我們好嗎好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員的資訊那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7530.748,"end":7538.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7558.308,"end":7561.333,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8121.203,"end":8134.572,"text":"好 我們接著繼續開會 那接著有請我們秋若華委員來諮詢謝謝主席 主席有請我們陳主委有請我們陳主委"},{"start":8144.262,"end":8159.961,"text":"委員早 主委早 主委首先還是要和您討論和確認我們國家的基礎建設所需要的基礎關鍵資材剛剛有很多委員 包括徐副會委員也有提到也就是濾青它雖然看起來只是一般的材料可是也是關乎到國人的日常生活道路維護"},{"start":8161.042,"end":8175.488,"text":"那我們現在的情況是台灣正面臨國際原物料的波動還有國內產能供給調整的雙重佳績所以想要先請問主委那這樣子的雙重因素兩個因素加在一起會不會影響接下來的公共工程的正常執行呢這個"},{"start":8178.379,"end":8205.019,"text":"因為是戰爭嘛所以引起的原油進來台灣受限所以導致柏油減產那利清就少所以公共工程委內也發函那麼也發新聞稿像這樣的因素導致你的成本增加那麼雙方就主辦機關跟這個業者可以做物調主委您現在掌握到他漲幅的程度是多少實際掌握我請這個我們來說明"},{"start":8215.473,"end":8235.304,"text":"這個是之前的資料 是那麼北部漲幅大概14%中部漲幅10%那麼南部漲幅16%東部漲幅13%這個是 應該這個資料 您說到的這些漲幅都是在20%以內那目前他工會 立青工會他有表示已經上漲35%了嗎"},{"start":8237.085,"end":8253.864,"text":"那我也有特別看到經濟部說目前的存量可以到五月底如果後續順利的話就是可以延長至六月那行政院也有表示他會優先供應緊急重大的工程那這邊還是要請教主委喔那我們現行的處理方式還是事後才來申請嗎"},{"start":8257.049,"end":8283.822,"text":"我們先行的制度就是等廠商來申請然後等價格他反映了他的指數反映之後才再來調整這個就是禮約的過禮約的協調所以我們也同意說公共工程的方面是要能夠做物調我整個量我跟委員說明台塑化的紫光是中塑那邊還有四萬五千噸的庫存那"},{"start":8285.002,"end":8297.637,"text":"所以這個對工程會來說是安全的庫存量嗎對 中碩他也會停止就是國外契約供應商的需求會優先提供國內那台灣中油他會去採購現貨"},{"start":8299.859,"end":8318.05,"text":"所以根據我得到的資料 台塑化它也增加了生產的比例所以目前是沒有問題 柏油的供應是沒有問題的現在主委的說明 不過還是要請問主委一個問題你們有沒有去跨部會然後進行協商機制將公共工程用的力勤把它列為優先的配售物質力勤 是 公共工程用的力勤"},{"start":8324.609,"end":8349.663,"text":"這個就看合約啦所以我們初步了解是沒有問題那我下午也會再召集另外一次協商啦那比較確定各部會還有這個相關供應商那麼對於柏油濾青的供應的狀況是所以請主委去做深度的討論那這邊也想要請教主委是不是可以建立一個自動觸發的調整機制針對這些高波動向式濾青因為我也看到在去年114"},{"start":8350.703,"end":8367.054,"text":"在114年的時候 力清它的關鍵原料像是柏油還有它的燃料有受到國際能源的波動它曾經一度漲幅到20%那它每噸是1.25萬台幣那我這邊想請問你們最新在網站上面公告的價格是多少"},{"start":8369.943,"end":8391.089,"text":"那跟委員報告那我們濾清混凝土的價格那我們根據查的歷史資料來查的話應該是說一直到今年二月其實價格都差不多那唯一有一個波動是到那個就是我想問的問題因為你們最新公布的資料到二月二十八為什麼只有到二月二十八號但是三月份的話我們是最近才要公布最近什麼時候才會公布"},{"start":8392.909,"end":8413.6,"text":"我們大概最近這個禮拜就會這個禮拜就會公布這個禮拜才會公布三月那我們觀察到這個波動其實真的就是今年的三月相較於二月以前他的波動就是剛剛主委跟跟您說明的那幾個幅度確實是在20%那現在剛剛主委也曾經也說明過其實根據經濟部所掌握的這個瀝青油的"},{"start":8413.84,"end":8440.61,"text":"那沒關係 那我再來請教主委主委你應該說不會影響國內的重大公共建設嗎?還有工程嗎?所以供應量是沒有問題 那麼行政院呢副院長也是每個禮拜召開那麼這些有關的因為中油公司他也把他產能轉向高他高價值的油品那3月也對力勤開市進行管控了那這樣子也會導致地方政府的工程也會連帶送餘下因為我看到平均進場施工的時間拉到2到4週拉長到2到4週"},{"start":8443.536,"end":8472.482,"text":"就是我們把它簡單來區分了就是關於禮約的問題將來會到工程會來諮詢或者是協商那麼工程會都同意那麼支持物條那主委您要特別留意喔因為現在目前桃園就已經有工程包商他們表示因為買不到料而要他們就是說先申請暫時停工喔那我們不希望等到到時候全國的道路也連帶的受影響因為我跟委員報告就是目前掌握的狀況不會有供應沒有問題啦"},{"start":8473.522,"end":8477.346,"text":"國際情勢這個兩個來源台灣中油跟台塑化我們還是要以防萬一因為接下來進入汛期如果很不幸的風災還是颱風到路鋪面受到影響我們不希望到時候"},{"start":8497.965,"end":8516.847,"text":"所以行政院一直在掌控相關的民生物資的價格包括濾青每個禮拜都會開一次會主委這邊也在最後請問您一個問題大型的捷運工程它近年也淪為營造市場的高風險標案甚至是拒絕往來戶你有沒有意識到這個問題"},{"start":8520.294,"end":8544.396,"text":"土方是土方的這個方案已經30多年了那過去設置土資場然後到土資場之後篩分之後分成有加料去做其他使用或者是廢棄物或者是進行加工但是土資場的量事實上是現實上它是不夠容納那麼多土方的"},{"start":8545.319,"end":8546.664,"text":"土方也是集中一環所有的土自產環要加起來"},{"start":8550.456,"end":8578.556,"text":"所謂的土方根本量比那個超過很多那些東西到哪裡去了過去只是大家有一個灰色地帶土方是其中一環那我這邊也要跟主委提到本席舉例桃園的捷運工程延伸中立段它已經流標四次了今年又重新招標又流標已經總共第五次了那它的底價其實已經就是提高到將近八成可是還是沒有廠商願意投標你們在你們之前也有提到其實流標率是40%沒有錯吧那要怎麼來改善這個問題"},{"start":8579.497,"end":8605.18,"text":"如果是因為土方的問題那土方的戰志或填海等等那麼內政部一直在努力當中除了內政部努力當中那工程會這邊針對廠商然後他們的意願你們要怎麼來就是協助他們工程會當然會協助內政部那麼就土方的機制土方土方的機制跟去處相關法規那麼我站在"},{"start":8606.081,"end":8630.579,"text":"兼任政委的身份 讓某位持續在協調當中其實土方只是其中一個因素那當然就是缺工缺料 整大環境的因素下造成就是工程會延宕 然後還有流標那這邊也要特別提醒主委那現在工程會的問題你們不是沒有制度 而是你們的制度都是還是停留在低波動的時代那什麼時候你們會去正視這個問題就是把現在高波動的風險也納入你們的考量"},{"start":8634.266,"end":8661.142,"text":"我們兩個方案可以可以同意物調這是我們的主張另外就供期的部分也希望說這個機關跟這個業者可以合意那麼也可以這個增加供期這是要解決目前這樣子的一個招標遇到困難的問題好那謝謝主委您的說明那也再請把最新的價格趕緊放在公共工程網的網站上面好謝謝"},{"start":8664.002,"end":8680.575,"text":"好謝謝我們邱若驊委員的質詢我們接著有請我們何欣春委員好謝謝主席那我們請呃陳金德陳主任委員呃有請我們陳主委"},{"start":8686.311,"end":8688.353,"text":"委員長主委好我今天想談談的是無人機我想行政院我們中央已經宣布要建立無人機的非紅供應鏈三大政策 五大策略共同要推動無人機的國家隊為什麼我特別關注這一題"},{"start":8705.928,"end":8709.129,"text":"因為事實上無人機的一個零組件非常完整的供應鏈在台中台中的產業是無人機的國家對的政策目標當作是我們產業能夠轉型升級的一個重要的契機當然在推動的過程裡面"},{"start":8729.015,"end":8753.013,"text":"我們五大策略裡面最重要的是所謂的產業聚落的生態系以及制定使用規範跟推動資安檢測那共同的來完成這個2027無人機要全部飛紅供應鏈的一個目標這個我想主委你知道啦那為什麼我要特別要在我們公共工程委員會的今天的業務報告裡面來談這一題下一頁"},{"start":8756.499,"end":8771.442,"text":"我事實上在2020是最早提出當時候在那之前2020之前我們政府各行政單位大部分的無人機有七成以上是中國製的"},{"start":8772.905,"end":8791.588,"text":"那一年我在總諮詢的時候跟蘇院長提到這件事蘇院長才開始盤點我們各個機關裡面到底對於中國製的無人載具、無人機還有多少第二個"},{"start":8793.101,"end":8814.211,"text":"蘇院長當時也承諾從公務機關公務部門自身做起要盡速的來編列預算該淘汰要淘汰趕快責成副院長來盤點那目前呢我不知道各部會在採購無人機的一個中國製的一個比例"},{"start":8815.592,"end":8821.279,"text":"第一個我們原則已經禁用第二個那禁用了之後我們要繼續編預算來採購採購這個"},{"start":8826.178,"end":8853.45,"text":"絕對不能有這個中國製的一個比例那還有這個整個非紅供應鏈的一個我們對於各部門各行政機關到底有沒有能力去檢視或者是呢他採購了之後要結標在採購的過程裡面到底能不能確認這一台他要買的無人機裡面有沒有紅色供應鏈的零組件這個部分主委你知道嗎"},{"start":8855.206,"end":8876.822,"text":"無人機當然首先是國防的需求不一定喔我先解釋給你聽就是因為面對中國一直文攻武嚇所以我們要短時間之內能夠國防有足夠能夠來防衛的無人機這個無人機我們希望能夠國內把它變成一種產業"},{"start":8879.624,"end":8886.909,"text":"軍用的是一種我今天講的2020我那時候提出來是我要告訴你喔內政部有無人機做什麼防災"},{"start":8889.625,"end":8915.863,"text":"或者是呢農業部有無人機 做什麼巡山森林守護然後呢這個消防署有無人機也是在做救護或者是呢在災難發生的時候他們可以去使用無人機當為他們的輔助工具在那個當下不是只有軍用的無人機各部會裡面都有使用無人機的人以及呢採購無人機那這個採購過去並沒有"},{"start":8920.545,"end":8943.07,"text":"並沒有規範過去都沒有規範所以在2020我才會告訴你各部會裡面有超過七成以上的使用的無人機是中國製那在那之後2020之後我才會跟你們說為了防止資安風險因為每一台中國製的無人機裡面它的系統是不是有回報的後門"},{"start":8944.41,"end":8958.231,"text":"資訊是不是被直接嫁接到中國去這個都是治安的風險也是我們國安的風險所以蘇院長在當年有承諾要禁訴的盤點跟汰換那接著我當然知道 來"},{"start":8959.403,"end":8981.073,"text":"下一頁我們公務機關要排除資安風險的時候政府採購全面禁用中國貨在前一任工程會主委吳哲成吳主委的時候曾經也有明確的態度表示公務機關呢頻頻報違規使用中國貨尤其地方政府地方政府也有在使用無人機"},{"start":8982.694,"end":8988.239,"text":"地方政府的無人機採購到底有沒有符合我們現在的一個原則全面禁用中國貨那個時候吳主委說不聽就要出分了啦那是在2022我從2020指出這件事情之後要政府來重視關注2022我們地方政府還有一些行政單位"},{"start":9004.915,"end":9020.533,"text":"持續違規在使用中國貨所以才會讓這個當時候的吳主委落下重話再講不聽就處分那我們呢包括不是只有地方政府包括各大學包括他們在使用研究也好"},{"start":9021.093,"end":9043.872,"text":"或者是呢 他們的一個創新大學有沒有在使用無人機 很多 很多領域都在使用那我們還要求教育部跟大學端說要重研認定禁用入場的資訊產品這個當然是逐步的來禁用 逐步的來重研那我現在問的是 我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":9045.513,"end":9046.114,"text":"那我跟委員說明"},{"start":9073.574,"end":9088.074,"text":"從今年開始三年大概有個351到400億各部會才是大量採購無人機過去是不多因為大陸的大疆市佔率太高了不只台灣其他國家也都是有大疆的"},{"start":9088.655,"end":9103.586,"text":"那為了因應未來三年這個各部會採購的無人機那工程會訂立一個無人機的採購指引跟共同供應契約那我是不是請我們負責的副主委或主任來講一下好 副主委來 下一頁我知道副主委要跟我講因為我有看到了因為飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":9105.427,"end":9132.285,"text":"我們政府的大目標政策所以呢工程會終於從2020我開始在講這件事的時候到現在2026我們提出了一個採購指引那我只想問第一個這個採購指引今年的2月24號出來的那採購指引實施到現在有沒有碰到問題再來我們未來如何落實各部會的稽查 稽核"},{"start":9133.408,"end":9148.486,"text":"首先跟委員報告就是說我們的指引出來以後原則上面我們是採用共約啦那我們是這一次是盤點所有中央部會地方政府有包括嗎大學端有包括嗎"},{"start":9148.826,"end":9172.782,"text":"他會透過譬如說教育部他就透過他們去盤點那內政部可能他也把地方政府的需求盤點進來那我們今年是委託台灣銀行做共約的採購所以在整個招標跟審標禮約將來驗收等等會有一套標準的作業就是針對委員剛剛關心的這個標準的作業什麼時候出來"},{"start":9174.051,"end":9200.454,"text":"現在已經有指引了就是靠這個指引問題是台穎的這個共同採購契約裡面他們呢對於這一套指引熟嗎他們可以認定在這個整機裡面的飛鴻供應鏈是不是他的零組件來自飛鴻供應鏈我們有派人員在整個那個採購的座位裡面去派多少人一個我們主任秘書就派一個而已我們是最熟悉"},{"start":9201.824,"end":9224.291,"text":"還有工作小組還有採購評選委會他有很多個不同的機制我們都有派人在裡面我們這邊這是特別我必須要問說那我還在核心的一句話啦那他們懂無人機嗎無人機裡面大大小小還有系統零組件的所謂的非紅供應鏈的定義跟認定標準又是什麼有那個原則上面整機不行嘛"},{"start":9225.351,"end":9249.862,"text":"那有去盤點說目前台灣自己比較欠缺的是哪一些項目那只有針對那一些被動的元件那目前盤點出來大概就是光學鏡啊磁鐵等等的這個我們現在做不到所以我們要求到明年開始要全面的嘛那在沒有辦法做到這個以前那其他的都不行啊"},{"start":9250.55,"end":9266.081,"text":"我必須要告訴主委副主委跟各位我們今天問這一題是因為第一個我們禁用中國貨那我們也不希望有資安疑慮的無人載具進入我們的政府體系這是國安問題"},{"start":9269.81,"end":9292.97,"text":"最終我們要怎麼替代替代就是行政院宣布這個無人機的產業整個供應鏈希望在台灣能夠自給自足可以自己供應那這個供應鏈呢對我們台中來講非常重要而且我們有完整的供應鏈我也非常希望我們台中的這個無人機的完整供應鏈它所生產出來的無人機可以"},{"start":9293.95,"end":9304.354,"text":"為政府所採購那在這個愛用國貨而且呢是在國防安全自主的一個情況之下我們希望把無人機產業能夠從外銷轉內銷啦我們希望我們自己的產業能夠獲得支持那政府的採購可以呢在地採購讓台中的傳統產業可以轉型升級我們有自信我們可以但是呢在這個"},{"start":9320.319,"end":9338.477,"text":"之前我就必須要請公共工程委員會在你的採購作業指引裡面那對於現在的採購的一個這個非紅供應鏈的認定那認定如果要重演也要重演重演之下我們如何引導政府各單位來做一個"},{"start":9341.448,"end":9366.236,"text":"好的採購啦合法合規而且呢是能夠在地自主的採購啦報告委員除了民間這些我們的國防需求量非常大在任性預算裡面有2000億我們希望在國內來來生產但國內目前還沒有那個量跟相關的技術還不夠的狀況之下會有國外的廠商來合作我們可以是啊是啊"},{"start":9366.576,"end":9386.175,"text":"除了供應國內國防需求所以當然不能有紅色我們除了供應自己國內的需求之外我成功了之後我還可以外銷到其他國家去啊所以這個就是賴總統講的民主供應鏈那既然是民主供應鏈就不能有大疆的產品就不能有大陸的所以我們要扶持自己的我們國家的品牌的廠商嘛不要說民用的"},{"start":9390.399,"end":9417.42,"text":"然後國防需求了 將來我們變成一個產業要外銷的所以一定要培養自製的能力那這個自製能力就是要擺脫所有的中國製的產品 目的是這樣子所以我就希望公共工程委員會 因為你是政府採購的主管機關的最上位 那我們的未來在這一個飛虹供應鏈的一個這個建立之下 如何落實各部會的稽查 我最後一頁我為什麼會講到這個你現在今年才訂這個"},{"start":9421.083,"end":9446.021,"text":"這個指引那在訂指引之前過去採購的無人機如何集合這個請給我一個書面報告因為時間到了第二個那現在作業指引訂定了之後那我們的採購集合的能量所以我才問說你們有多少人啊對不對那你們集合的過程又是如何啊那發現問題又該如何解決那如何管控治安的風險這個再拜託這個很重要好不好"},{"start":9449.363,"end":9478.142,"text":"再給我一個書面的一個完整的一個答覆謝謝好謝謝何欣存委員的質詢我們接著有請黃建豪召委來質詢好謝謝主席主席我們要先請工程會陳金德主委有請陳主委"},{"start":9483.932,"end":9505.968,"text":"委員長主委早主委我想棒球迷都非常的關切上週發生的這個亞太球場的事情那我們回到法規面來我想跟主委要個答案就是說這個台南那時候體育局的招標案件就說他是視為是這個收入性質的採購那所以他當初在公告的時候是4月2號公告那4月7號結標中間有廉價嘛"},{"start":9508.45,"end":9526.179,"text":"那扣掉廉價之後換句話說這個從這個辦公日大概只有兩天到三天左右的時間喔所以我想要確定一下像這樣子的狀況他未達公告金額標案最短等標期的七日這個法定下限這樣子的狀況到底是不是合法的我請副主委來跟你們說"},{"start":9529.696,"end":9552.31,"text":"首先跟委員報告就我們了解亞太球場它這個周邊攤商這一次它的那個標案事實上它採用的有點像是出租它的空間啦所以嚴格講起來它並不屬於政府採購法裡面所講的這個採購那當然如果要進一步問就是說"},{"start":9552.91,"end":9575.309,"text":"以他這種的情況他理論上他有三種方式可以處理一個當然是直接用類似財產的出租另外他可以走這個促餐就是這個OT另外一個當然就是說兩條路都走不通以後那麼政府採購法裡面他還有老物的一個採購那目前看起來他走的"},{"start":9575.99,"end":9590.322,"text":"比較像是把空間出租所以基本上面這個並不是機關付錢給他是他把錢繳回來所以第一個在程序上面那第二個在他的這個假設"},{"start":9591.443,"end":9613.926,"text":"它是政府採購的話那麼因為理論上政府採購這個雖然工程規定有一個等標期最低但是最低的期限並不表示說啊你只要扶那個基本上法規規定是要合理的期限啊它如果說這個等標期裡面絕大部分都是在休假理論上一看應該是不合理啦那會產生這樣的一個問題"},{"start":9615.612,"end":9642.161,"text":"副主任你剛剛講說這看起來沒有違法違規那我要確定如果你們今天這樣講的話那未來政府機關要辦理相關的這種把空間出租出去不管是球場不管是商場不管是公共空間他是不是都可以適用這樣正式的標準他就是公共告知當然他現在是廢標了當然廢標原因待會給你討論到底什麼原因廢標但是我要問說如果未來這個說法是合理是可行的話未來各地方政府"},{"start":9642.981,"end":9662.671,"text":"是不是都可以這樣我就是今天公告我下禮今天公告我後天就絕標可以這樣嗎我要確定這件事情跟委員報告如果是政府採購目前在檢討以現在雖然我們是法規講說合理期限那我們給他一個最低期限那機關他可能會覺得我只要符合最低就好他沒有去考慮合理性"},{"start":9663.371,"end":9689.563,"text":"那我們未來檢討的方向會是以說他這個廠商實際可以工作的天數來算比較合理啦那至於如果是屬於財產的出租等等因為不是工程會的職權那當然他如果願意比照將來整個調整以後也許就會整個程序上面比較合理啦所以未來這種所謂的這種所謂收入性質啦這種出租的收入性質採購"},{"start":9691.465,"end":9705.222,"text":"因為你剛剛講他可能你不符合傳統一般政府採購的這種什麼七天的或是電子開標五天的那種的這個場所空間出租並不是機關出錢是這個陳租人他繳錢給機關我們務實一點面對當然他不是政府出錢不過"},{"start":9711.857,"end":9734.713,"text":"我今天已經確定說如果我能夠標到這案子坦白說啦對廠商來講是大利多某種程度上是獨佔嘛所以他還是有這個程序上還是有盈利的問題啊所以現在才講說未來有沒有一個標準像這種所謂的收入性的採購他的等標期還有沒有這種有沒有這種要求還是就開放那我可以今天早上上班公告下午結標嗎"},{"start":9736.014,"end":9753.995,"text":"如果沒有標準的話因為他不屬於政府採購我沒有辦法太低其他機關但是我覺得啦就是說從本質上來講他既然是要公開讓各個廠商都來合理當然是說要讓所有可能參與的商家他有合理的準備嘛"},{"start":9754.455,"end":9767.775,"text":"但是法律的原則一定是這樣子啊那自己實際上他要怎麼操作也許如果說其他機關他沒有明確那麼他來參考工程會的對政府採購的規定那這個我們覺得是很樂見"},{"start":9769.335,"end":9790.767,"text":"好那接下來我想問一下我們這個政府採購法這個之前說要修法的部分這個本來說要修法那當然有很多原因嘛包含說這個希望改善工程照標的效率然後希望說這個加速我們這個行政上的這個效率不要說每次都這麼多常常有流標常常這個沒有人來標的狀況發生那我想問一下現在這個狀況"},{"start":9792.418,"end":9813.104,"text":"我們希望也希望說從第一個要提升政府效率第二個要說從源頭去解決這種過去有廠商去違法借標這種情況發生那現在暫緩修法那未來工程會會不會繼續往這個修法方向去做那以及現在能不能去處理到我本來你本來提修法是因為解決現狀這些問題嗎那現在如果暫時沒有要修的話那這些問題要怎麼處理"},{"start":9818.614,"end":9833.171,"text":"這個修法已經醞釀了一段時間我們之前參考過機關跟一些工協會比如說營建工會等等這些的意見所以提出預告"},{"start":9833.692,"end":9848.472,"text":"在預告之後呢會有一些不同意見那大致上已經有收斂所以呢我們才準備要送行政院但是後來又出現了一些媒體的意見所以我們認為我們需要多思考"},{"start":9849.033,"end":9872.951,"text":"所以我們會打算在更進一步的了解機關跟相關的意見之後呢會再進行預告所以這個還持續在推動當中所以最快呢應該是今年年底之前能夠重新預告那在此之前呢我們會把所有各界質疑的一一來克服一一再來思考那麼的確是需要修改的就修改"},{"start":9873.331,"end":9901.579,"text":"如果說因為這個修改如果導致其他的相關的問題出來那我們會進一步來考量就不去動相關的條文來主委 我跟你分享啦當然這是我們的講法就是說到底問題卡在哪裡當然最大最大的這個爭點一定是說所謂的本來要三家那可能未來都類似採最有利標這個狀況那因為三家坦白講對辦這個採購的購入來講它某種程度上是一種保障那如果未來如果假設修好方向一樣是往這個"},{"start":9902.919,"end":9923.102,"text":"單一一家投標就可以的話我覺得對採購的公務員來講就對這些承辦人啦這種裁量的這種權利在他手上那未來如果發生爭議他一定會有法律風險我們這裡面有很多前提就是說你當你這個機關預算通過之後就必須對他公告相關預算內容就知道了"},{"start":9923.462,"end":9941.855,"text":"那政府採購在政府採購網上面都有都有公告那現在也是電子領標電子投標然後希望等標期長希望預告期長在這些前提之下呢那麼回到這個決標的三家改成一家才有這樣的這個修法"},{"start":9942.435,"end":9961.305,"text":"而且呢我們現在第二次開標第二次招標的事就第一次流標第二次第二次就不限三家也是在進行啦就是有一些配套在進行但是已經被外界誤解了那我跟委員報告越是巨額採購那個軌道啦重大工程動輒幾百億千億的能投標的"},{"start":9962.445,"end":9975.404,"text":"廠商不多嘛對不對那如果這些廠商呢他認為說不然再等一下啦那因為金額不夠再等一下啦所以那個就勢必預算金額就會提高那"},{"start":9976.587,"end":9996.983,"text":"如果說經常我們政府這些巨額採購都會面臨這樣問題所以說如果說整個等標期夠長然後呢這個決標的方法也明確比方說是選商嘛所以改成一家的話反而會造成有醫院投標人他不會親力的不投"},{"start":9997.642,"end":10014.908,"text":"好我想這個是業界的立場你如果去看我們的政府我知道我要跟主委講說其實重點還是說回到政府採購法本身是我們今天我今天提這個問題主要還是要擔心為公務人員去講這個事情就是說你要把相關的配套很明確化的未來萬一有"},{"start":10016.508,"end":10033.213,"text":"萬一有人沒得標去投訴去告圖利那你要讓這個承辦人員他應該在法律上能夠站住腳目前現實上對那是沒有問題這些前提都做到目前現實上就是有些機關金額不大不小的會造成他很大的困擾"},{"start":10034.213,"end":10059.729,"text":"就是一定要三家啦所以他這是造成很大的困擾然後也因此有一些這個案子已經發生我請副主委再跟補充說一下跟我再補充就是說有點誤解說取消三家還要認了一家來就開票事實上不是這樣因為每個標案他有資格限制他可能會訂定基本資格他要訂定特定的資格還有他提供服務的規格"},{"start":10060.529,"end":10078.854,"text":"他必須這些都符合以後他才能進入要不要決標給他這是第一個啦那第二個當時會這樣的考量是因為很多機關的反應他是這樣子因為他有三家他有執行時效的問題所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請他去找三家"},{"start":10080.81,"end":10108.411,"text":"那他就會有一點變成是機關有一點讓他跳了一個陷阱他基本上面他以現在的環境他很難去微飆啊因為現在都是電子公告嘛他也不曉得有多少廠家會來他只是擔心假設說今天因為不足三家那我的備標成本都不見了他是基於這樣的心態可能為了讓他符合形式上面他並不是真的有辦法去微飆啦"},{"start":10109.051,"end":10132.942,"text":"那當然最有正反的意見我們都還在通盤的這個研議好因為時間差不多最後一題最後一個問題一樣是政府採購法就是說今天這個因為我們委員提到說三政條款的部分如果它過去多是被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來的廠商名單那希望說未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人他就不應該繼續有這個投票的資格我不知道共產黨立場對這樣子的想法這樣的修法方向支不支持"},{"start":10134.184,"end":10151.154,"text":"各位包括就是說目前對於停權的機制怎麼調整各方意見非常多包括要不要所謂的三振條件等於是永久不足他參與標案的資格就這個議題目前我們在跟各個單位研討的狀況底下"},{"start":10152.094,"end":10170.317,"text":"絕大部分的意見認為這個有點違反比例的原則所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較這個中間的就是說延長目前可以停權的把它數次的這個停權的時效還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整"},{"start":10171.218,"end":10194.267,"text":"那麼每一個機關原則上可以停到五年那如果他的停權是有再加上其他機關他有可能會停到五年十年十五年那取一個中間當然我目前並沒有排除說一定不要這一個所謂的三政條款但是就確實跟這個委員報告我們聽到目前為止法律界都反對啦"},{"start":10194.847,"end":10200.014,"text":"好沒關係最後那這個主委副主委你們就把這個討論剛剛三政條款討論的這種討論給我們一份資料好不好好好謝謝謝謝黃健雅召委的質詢那我們接著請陳宣委員質詢"},{"start":10221.718,"end":10248.145,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請陳主委好 也請陳主委委員長主委這兩天啦這個中共習主席習總書記對金門馬祖釋出一些利多也就是這個新四通新四通裡面包含了通水、通電、通氣、通橋"},{"start":10250.22,"end":10268.336,"text":"早上我看也有委員在質詢這個問題嘛所以你認為因為你督導水利、電力都你們督導的嘛你認為在政黨還沒有輪替的情況之下有可能跟對岸談這個問題嗎?"},{"start":10271.918,"end":10286.648,"text":"包委員我是覺得所有的事情都可以談啦基於民生需要但是呢我們要了解我們的對岸對我們並不友善那麼他有一些企圖而且有時候呢也不一定"},{"start":10287.569,"end":10313.284,"text":"宣傳跟實際做的不一樣我舉金門供水而言反而金門我們現在做的所以供水供的很好啊對我說金門現在反而海水淡化或本身的水利設施慢慢的可以這個讓廈門供來的水是在一定比例以下所以我是認為說可以談但是呢我們必須很清楚這個還是有些前提的"},{"start":10313.424,"end":10341.75,"text":"沒有你現在反正來者不善嘛你什麼東西都不溝通嘛你在不溝通的狀況之下那最後幹什麼就是打仗嘛是不是就是打仗嘛你無法溝通無法在桌面上來談事情那就我們準備武器嘛跟對面對幹就這個意思嘛是不是是不是這個意思其實他讓你金門馬祖太簡單了他把你所有的金元切斷物資切斷"},{"start":10344.045,"end":10370.983,"text":"是不是早上有人問 廈門那邊做了橋他們在兩年以前開始動工了要跟小金門要通橋你知道嗎已經真的在做了他這個橋他為什麼敢做你不通的話他改天把你圍起來他一樣把你金門拿下來一樣通當然我們是政治上評估他大概不至於這樣做了那現在 你講海水淡化"},{"start":10372.657,"end":10398.988,"text":"你喜歡喝海水淡化的水嗎我們目前你看馬祖都是海灘機南竿你看六百噸的有兩座每天有一千噸的水淡水海水海水淡化的水北竿有五百噸的水東營有五百噸的水東西局有差不多兩百噸的水這些水啊"},{"start":10400.011,"end":10415.394,"text":"海水淡化水喝下去你覺得健康嗎你有沒有跟醫生有接觸過你們行政院工程會老是在討論這些事情水裡面原水包含了一些鈣、鎂、鈉、鉀、鐵、鎂、鋁、矽很多東西在裡面我跟醫生聊過海水淡化的水喝了以後會怎麼樣它會軟趴趴的骨頭"},{"start":10428.717,"end":10456.867,"text":"骨骼疏鬆對身體會有影響的我們目前老百姓的壽命還活得蠻長的如果跟中部一樣用廢塞發電那天閻光恆委員跟我講他最近出病出病的場合都是六七十歲的我們這邊都八九十歲他六七十歲你到北京去七十歲也是高壽為什麼"},{"start":10458.695,"end":10480.369,"text":"它只有一個出口嘛所以北京那邊都是霧濛濛、雨濛濛的那個空氣非常糟糕所以主委你有機會對水的問題我希望你到馬祖去也算來考察一下好不好督導經濟部這水的問題我們目前水是夠記者問我水夠不夠我說夠電夠不夠?夠"},{"start":10483.851,"end":10511.493,"text":"但是有狀況,你不能長年喝這個海水氮化的水海水氮化水進來以後要跟原水要混合在一起金門的水有,我們政府有講你水資源不足的時候才同意讓它購水那是管碧玲委員現任的海委會主委,她反對最厲害後來我跟楊正文委員去陪著我陪楊正文委員去跟管碧玲委員溝通"},{"start":10513.41,"end":10514.719,"text":"金門才開放這個水啊"},{"start":10515.629,"end":10543.332,"text":"所以馬祖這個水的問題我們為未來的十年二十年觀光科來了以後要為這個來打算水啊、電啊這些可以考慮主委好不好因為牽涉到其他部會的問題不單純是供工程委員的業務所以我們了解委員的用心你不要一定要政黨輪替你現在對共產黨沒有信心"},{"start":10545.512,"end":10570.108,"text":"沒有人對共產黨有信心他過來跟你下跪了嗎你也不敢跟他聊啊你總是認為黃鼠狼給雞拜年嘛是不是你有這樣的想法很麻煩耶共產黨統治的國家沒有幾個啦所以你看看全世界主要的民主國家對共產黨的提議你也看到老美嘛我要打你哪裡就哪裡嘛我要打你伊朗美國總統講什麼"},{"start":10574.346,"end":10599.999,"text":"我打伊朗是鬧著玩的開玩笑的你懂不懂我想打他就打他大國現在就這麼回事嘛是不是今天美國有力量可以保護台灣我們所以台灣講話很強硬有一天美國沒這個能力來保護台灣的時候台灣講話還那麼大聲嗎我不相信好這個不談我們目前喔馬祖那邊你們有沒有去做施工的查核啊"},{"start":10601.601,"end":10623.358,"text":"我之前有請祖密去過馬祖一趟那是針對一個風災的個案不是光茶河公災 還有我們的公共工程我們最近本來在安排去看它的水資源處理中心因為馬祖是一個污水處理的典範在全國各縣市接管率 馬祖好像是第三名"},{"start":10624.539,"end":10651.188,"text":"接管率是全國第三名海水淡化是處理的很好我說是民生污水的處理接管率是全國第三名所以是非常認真在接管在做這些小型的污水處理廠所以我們是最近有時間會安排污水處理我們那時候我還當縣長的時候我們是全國第二名除了落後台北市台北市高雄市我們是第二名高雄市"},{"start":10652.409,"end":10679.286,"text":"是第二還是馬祖是第二啦大概是全國優先啦馬祖有個地方你們漏掉了軍中啊軍中都在山上齁那個汙水你們要注意到齁你不要只注意到民間啦齁所以軍方的汙水是沒有接管嗎他那個髒的水流下來會影響到我們平原欸是不是好我們找時間去看好現在就是說落實施工查核啦"},{"start":10680.168,"end":10691.23,"text":"我們北竿的中山國中,原定115年6月25日完工到現在工程紀錄多少?2.49你們工程會對這個事情怎麼處理?他們的紀錄只有2.49欸?包委員這個個案是我們來瞭解,預定6月完工目前...沒有很像在工程會,你們現在跟縣政府跟他在你們那邊在調處還有在調處喔?"},{"start":10711.001,"end":10727.667,"text":"還可以聊足嗎如果說是他的在履歷當中施工進度達到一定的比例機關當然可以罰他錢或把他終止但我不知道這個個案的情況這個早就要列入101條了吧"},{"start":10729.568,"end":10743.052,"text":"那是另外一件事情那是兩件事情你們現在在處理喔可能要回去查因為案件很多啦那委員臨時問我不大知道不是案件很多但是落得太嚴重了嘛今年要完工的東西才2.49欸"},{"start":10745.738,"end":10771.021,"text":"現在我們沒處理,你們沒處理,當然人家有一些人怪到縣長頭上去你管六個人也很麻煩耶公審會是負責申訴的部分,到底要不要停權是由機關來決定還有大邱遊客中心,也一樣大邱遊客中心當然啦,現在中央沒有錢給他"},{"start":10772.714,"end":10801.043,"text":"沒有錢給他所以進度落後你們了解一下好不好還有在缺工我們那裡失業率是0.1全國最低的沒有人失業他沒有工作的一些人什麼原因就是年齡老化還有身心障礙除了這些人都有工作做那我們缺工他怎麼辦呢缺工這裡面不只是工程的缺工"},{"start":10802.369,"end":10803.571,"text":"我們旅遊業、旅館、洗床單、備單還有廚師、炒菜、洗碗盤這些怎麼處理?"},{"start":10815.083,"end":10832.673,"text":"因為這是服務業的這個人力需求那勞動部也一直有在注意這件事情那我們會來跟勞動部來反映那另外就缺工的問題就工程工程的問題因為離島所以他的人力缺乏包括"},{"start":10833.914,"end":10863.005,"text":"原料也缺乏所以需要運送所以基本上預算當然是可以比平常在本島的預算那麼可以再增加再多編啦 寬編這一直都有這樣的一個制度後邊我們有的標不出去耶你看一個工程標了18次主委你在台灣有聽說過標18次標不出去了嗎有標多次流標的是有啦是不是有標18次 好像這個標出去了"},{"start":10864.446,"end":10893.094,"text":"聽說這個廠商不只標這個工程,前面標這個工程不知道工程延宕多久已經一直給他工期了他有三個,阿兵哥還一個,還一個案子這個拿他沒辦法嗎?你這樣下去的話怎麼辦?當縣長也好,當指揮官也好,你說碰到這樣的工程這些業者你說怎麼辦?這不是我的問題嘛,不是從政者的問題嘛"},{"start":10894.602,"end":10917.661,"text":"所以這個法律上面 法規上面怎麼處理它受到你們工程會去調處你們要有一個標準的判斷好不好好 如果禮遇爭議的調解那工程會會指定委員來協助還有就是心事中的事情請主委認真一點對水資源的管理等等好不好你不能讓我們一直喝海水丹花茶"},{"start":10919.241,"end":10942.826,"text":"核核海水淡化你起碼未來的十年二十年還是要未雨綢繆你不能光看眼前眼前是沒有缺水沒有缺電問題我們很多的基礎建設完備以後觀光客進來我們要供應這麼多人那時候水跟電就不夠了好不好你要從長計議謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":10951.364,"end":10972.303,"text":"好謝謝陳雪生委員的發言現在有請許智傑委員來咨詢好謝謝主席我們請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":10980.251,"end":10996.707,"text":"委員長主委辛苦剛聽了我們陳委員在講我也是有感而發習近平對李克強的態度對胡錦濤的態度現在張又小又不知道還在不在這種人"},{"start":10998.976,"end":11024.066,"text":"真的是無可相信啦所以這個會台措施其實今天給明天就禁掉啦這個都是對台灣養套殺的一貫的伎倆所以那個主委還是要三思啦這個要怎麼樣跟那邊交流尤其是金門馬祖又臨近嘛那他們都會用很多那個"},{"start":11025.563,"end":11052.671,"text":"利誘然後去壞了我們的立場所以該注意的還是要注意所以主委這部分剛聽到覺得你很辛苦所以特地跟你再慰問一下謝謝好那但是事實上世界的變局真的是很大那包括伊朗的戰爭中東戰火現在石油的問題包括現在很多工程界釐清的問題"},{"start":11054.765,"end":11069.931,"text":"現在我們可以撐到什麼時候?歷經目前供應已經逐步改善是沒有問題的就是供應商就是台灣中油跟台塑化的子宮是中塑"},{"start":11071.906,"end":11086.322,"text":"還有四萬五千萬四點五萬噸的庫存那台塑化呢他也調整這個生產線呢那麼比例生產柏油的比例提高那他供應國外的"},{"start":11087.063,"end":11102.368,"text":"契約呢減少優先供應國內這是左院長那麼在院會明確要求的那麼台說化也目前積極的做到這些那中油除了中油的生產線本來就是在生產柏油但是因為原油啊要從中東來"},{"start":11103.968,"end":11127.435,"text":"那中油呢也在市場上來購買現貨他們積極在趕辦採購所以在這些加起來呢對柏油的供應不會有問題量的供應希望說主委工程會這邊注意啦因為我之前你們大概到了六月沒問題那六月之後還是七月八月還是中通有什麼變化"},{"start":11129.299,"end":11158.439,"text":"這個有時候我們也很難100%控制那我要跟主委反映就是說你比如說像我們高雄有很多的建設都需要到立簽科技園區連外道路高雄機場跑道北移新建國道7號國道1號拓寬高屏幕二塊新建等等就有很多嘛我在思考其實還包括採購法就是說為什麼現在的工程界好像很多人越來越不喜歡做公共工程"},{"start":11159.699,"end":11185.787,"text":"那當公務工程的彈性或者是公務員他避免有圖利的狀況這個都要非常的注意啦所以就是說像這個履約彈性的時間比如說好我國際變化然後我現在供貨比較短缺那現在我有可能因此而延宕到時間或者是增加到成本"},{"start":11187.196,"end":11205.804,"text":"那這個在一開始簽約的時候沒有人會想到國際會有變化這麼大那像這個在履約的爭議的時候他們一定都會說最後本身的工程單位大概都沒有人敢自己做決定那最後都會說那請工程會調解"},{"start":11208.164,"end":11228.141,"text":"像這個部分國際局勢的變化產生這個不管是原料的成本的增加或者是原料的供應的延宕那影響到這個本來契約所訂定的條件那這個部分如果是國際變化我們工程會是不是有一個復案如果遇到這種情況的話我們應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":11231.235,"end":11249.658,"text":"工程會針對這些事有做過公告了就是關於成本的增加工期必須延長那麼都主張那麼這個可以做物調那麼工程延期呢可以雙方合一呢來做這個工期的展延"},{"start":11250.399,"end":11274.632,"text":"那如果說雙方有意見可以到工程會來諮詢那工程會也是採取這樣的態度應該很快可以解決那如果說合約裡面沒有明確規定那也可以做情勢變更的主張那工程會很明確正面的態度就是可以物調那工期可以展延我現在其實有一個比較大向的問題需要工程會統一去思考"},{"start":11275.973,"end":11301.196,"text":"就是說在所有的國家公關工程裡面有一些是不好的廠商有一些是少部分會刁難的公務員那我們相信公務員90%以上都是好的啦但是就是說有少數的小鬼難纏然後包括我以前當風篡市長的時候其實有個經驗可以讓主委參考"},{"start":11302.554,"end":11327.142,"text":"我那時候剛剛有一些採購還不太清楚那我會覺得說設計跟施工跟建造分開可能比較可以防弊但是後來發現有一家廠商他專門低價搶標建造低價搶標建造他就可以去跟施工單位要有的沒有的不順的話就刁難"},{"start":11329.969,"end":11355.557,"text":"像這個部分你好的廠商遇到這種不好的狀況不管是工部門的小鬼或者是其他一般業界的小鬼那遇到這種情況事實上有很多在地方機場都卡住有很多求速無門所以有一些會到我們這裡來但是像這個部分工程會"},{"start":11357.421,"end":11366.035,"text":"大件的 小件的都可以拜託你們處理嗎就是如果理業爭議可以到工程會來申訴調解"},{"start":11366.98,"end":11393.657,"text":"看完報告 如果是申訴 這調解案件因為本身牽涉到六都也有申訴 它有一個類似管轄的分配啦齁那所以調解的部分要看那個管轄到底是屬於六都的申訴還是中央現在其實 現在就是時間啦 時間啦 就是說效率啦有些齁 那有的公司可能卡到公司倒閉啦"},{"start":11395.988,"end":11408.467,"text":"這個部分我們聽起來就是情何以堪那我們如何去把這個速度讓他真的是受到委屈的要能夠加快"},{"start":11409.981,"end":11428.037,"text":"第一個就是說我們工程會的立場是認為你除了不能圖利廠商你也不能刁難嘛這個誰決定到最後還是工程會決定我們是有定叫做採購人員的倫理規則就是說有一些比較有擔當的行政部門"},{"start":11429.378,"end":11458.436,"text":"他如果專業夠 擔當夠 判斷是這個建造刁難他可能就可以處理了但是像這麼有擔當的公務員不好找因為他會怕被人家講到他圖利對 他除非說我非常的有擔當 而且我非常的專業我認為說這個部分其實人家真的沒問題 你是叼人家這個其實我看過少數有這種擔當的公務員也有啦但是畢竟不多啦"},{"start":11459.335,"end":11485.943,"text":"那在這個整個台灣各縣市這種小案子非常的多那這個我們工程會有沒有辦法想一個辦法去把它的速度加快我們這個第一個當然是一開始的那個合約抓的禮業期限要合理坦白講我覺得一開始就不合理啦沒關係我現在是這樣啦對時間的關係我們也不要偷太久原則上就是說這是個問題"},{"start":11487.813,"end":11513.706,"text":"那我請工程會做個思考那這個問題有時候到最後都是一直拖時間拖到最後公司倒閉沒有倒閉也傷了七八分了那有些這種狀況我們有沒有辦法把這個速度加快有一種狀況這個明明是機關可以決定的事情他的權責可以決定的事情"},{"start":11514.753,"end":11539.506,"text":"他還是會把他送到工程會來希望工程會去背書所以案件非常多所以自然人力非常缺乏我們這個申訴調解委員會這個人力非常缺乏所以每個月平均有八十件一個月平均八十件那你去檢視這些有的機關就可以自己做行政決定的 首長就可以決定的還有的首長就不決定所以"},{"start":11540.816,"end":11564.397,"text":"公務員我們都了解啦 公務員很怕被卡到圖裡叫他有擔當說他100%有擔當其實這個就牽涉到我之前也有跟指揮執訊過就是檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識所以他很公正 但是人家還是去捲起"},{"start":11565.797,"end":11591.142,"text":"那檢察官還是去調查 然後還是被起訴的時候他就覺得說 我這年有正義感 這年有擔當 也是受到很多的危困所以我為什麼說這個最有利標我們希望說那個政風阻擊能夠加入多一點那也謝謝工程會 事實上我大概要求五年以上了啦那這五年來從30%到50% 現在應該快50%了吧"},{"start":11596.21,"end":11615.681,"text":"超過50%了嘛 對不對所以這個都是我們工程會的努力的成果啦這個當然要感謝但是我的意思是說我們從整個採購法 事實上我到交通委員會其實除了其他的項目之外 其實採購法也是我要求的一個重要的項目啦"},{"start":11616.882,"end":11633.573,"text":"那比如說我們保護好的廠商不好的廠商我們也要處理啊比如說負責人換殼的問題這個我們本來這次採購法要修都會準備修進來嘛那包括就是政風主計加入審查的機制"},{"start":11634.997,"end":11655.404,"text":"那我聽說就是這個一家到三家三家改成一家這個有爭議這個大家再討論沒關係但是我聽說是說就這個案子所以整個採購法的修改都要再延後那這樣子我其他的部分可以先要求你我們要先處理"},{"start":11657.963,"end":11678.416,"text":"畢竟工程會提案經過行政院審議再送大院來審查所以我們依據大概各界意見在重整之後看年底之前能不能再重新依告年底之前你說一家跟三家這個會有定案我的意思是說現在一家跟三家有爭議嗎"},{"start":11679.758,"end":11703.092,"text":"那其他的我相信大部分都沒有爭議還有些人有提出蠻多見解的所以我們必須重新再看過一次還有其他的條文也有意見我是這樣具體建議啦就是說有爭議的該暫緩的我們就暫緩嘛那如果可以先行的我們就先行好我們盡速啦是不是主委可以用這個角度去思考"},{"start":11704.249,"end":11726.332,"text":"我們改很多條的啦 我也有提一個版本 我也改很多條的啦這個真的是對台灣採購的環境 要讓公務員有擔當 有政方主席照顧要讓好的情商不要受到這麼大的圍困 我們要比較快速去解決他的問題"},{"start":11727.455,"end":11748.941,"text":"要不然給不好的村鄉你自己要挖坑我也不可以給你外面挖坑像這一些東西都是採購法一併思考的問題對於國家的公共工程才會有具體的幫助所以我是建議就是說速度還是要快那如果可以分開的話也可以考慮分開該可以做的就先做這樣好不好好 我們盡數來預告好 謝謝"},{"start":11757.365,"end":11779.591,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員的發言接著有請我們鍾嘉斌委員來質詢好 主席 在場委員 先進列車政局 讓首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":11787.813,"end":11802.751,"text":"主委辛苦啦今天的題目都很接近進口營建原料漲幅超過物價指數那公共工程的物條跟工期怎麼協調來我們看一下來主委進口物價的漲幅高於CPI如果3月份來講以美元計價我們的物價呢"},{"start":11803.992,"end":11825.789,"text":"年增8.53%新台幣也有到4.83%但是我們的3月的CPI只有1.2那表示什麼呢CPI它會跟著進口物價進口替代型會造成的影響會延後可能國內的生產成本已經增加到兩三成了但是國內的整個CPI物價指數會落後一兩季"},{"start":11826.249,"end":11846.889,"text":"那才會造成問題才會浮現可是呢實況上以餐宴來講現在喜宴新人啊包材上漲兩成啊這個餐宴也要多了兩三成好那我們工程會怎麼規定我們工程會來下一頁工程採購契約範本的物條方式就是什麼營建工程物價總指數不是CPI啦但是呢是要2.5%"},{"start":11848.51,"end":11859.654,"text":"是如果沒有規定就是2.5%啦那估驗完成後呢再來調整工程而且換機當業人實施的數量那我請教一下目前有沒有已經超過2.5%了主委現在現在的物價往下一頁看"},{"start":11866.915,"end":11886.32,"text":"來我舉例 你再看一下塑膠建材的實際漲幅遠高於紫素我們最近因為塑膠原料的價格持續上漲塑膠水管PVC大概呢 原料端都漲幅到兩成到三成那我們如果看營造工程的物價指數的年增率到了3月也從1.79 2.26到達2.7已經到達2.5%的範圍所以是不是根據工程採購契約的範本的物調方式廠商這樣調只能調2.5嗎"},{"start":11897.154,"end":11920.719,"text":"我跟委員報告整個工程會的企業範本針對物條有很詳盡的規定那尤其是再建工程在再建工程當中現在遇到一些戰事或其他的狀況有調整那麼我們同意就可以物條那物條在企業範本裡面有詳盡的規定那要看個案啦"},{"start":11920.879,"end":11929.473,"text":"看個案就對了所以就是說看每個公公可能發包採購都是怎麼約定沒有約定就是2.5%好 那其實我們來看其實工程牌是做了一件事情往下看"},{"start":11931.209,"end":11950.897,"text":"其實呢大概主委很清楚了那天是美麗的星期天3月22號我特別打電話給你求助就是說我接到陳情就是說力卿剛剛很多人也在問力卿那因為中東情勢一定要力卿供料的波動但是呢結果您說有什麼您剛剛的回答跟當天回答很像就是說如果個案的情況我們工程會再來協助"},{"start":11951.437,"end":11967.251,"text":"但是除了個案之外呢工程會也在4月2號也發布了一個指引就是因應逆行工要的波動工程會呢發布了履約指引啟動了跨部會協調全力穩定公共工程的推進那請問這個指引的主要精神是什麼"},{"start":11969.508,"end":11982.453,"text":"我剛剛提過了就是務條跟工期啦就是這個指引當中讓各個公共城的發報單位可以據這樣的指引跟他的合約商來調整他的務條就算是原來的契約當中請他們趕快"},{"start":11989.126,"end":12008.503,"text":"啟動企業的機制或者企業的機制比較不夠完備的也可以設法去幫廠商減少他們遇到的困難是這個意思嗎沒有錯好那現在剛剛講到了這個裡面有包括了物條跟工期那如果廠商因為缺料無法如期完工這個工期的指引現在很多我們都接到啊那"},{"start":12009.184,"end":12034.13,"text":"主委都很貼心說有個案你來問我們 我們幫你解決可是你都發布了一個指引了嘛這個指引當中好像對於這些對工企的擔憂這些廠商因為剛剛講到塑膠我們剛剛前面講到的所謂的營造工程的物價總指數那是總的但是因為工工有不同的品項如果是道路工程可能利薪這樣的比重很高這時候怎麼辦"},{"start":12035.87,"end":12059.396,"text":"來龍副主委那個我先報告事實上我們的物條它是有分三級啦它是個別項目還有種植樹還有種植樹嘛那它有一個適用的一個這個順序最不得也是採用到種植樹它如果是個別項目本身已經達到跟就可以了就可以了謝謝謝謝並不是說一定只能用種植樹好那恭喜的部分呢"},{"start":12060.014,"end":12082.601,"text":"供期的部分當然因為理論上機關他會比較保守是因為他會覺得希望廠商能夠提出比較直接的證明因為譬如說今天發生戰爭或者發生什麼疫情那是不是一定會影響到這個供期有時候他涉及個案的認定那這一塊當然我們是希望機關可以站在比較同理的立場但是因為他個案計算有時候很難說給他一個標準"},{"start":12084.702,"end":12109.998,"text":"那只能說原則上如果說他以當時現在的狀況那具有相當的關聯性應該就是可以扣啦好來那最後呢主委最後呢兩個結論往下看就是說剛剛你們發布了濾清那是不是可以比照濾清這次中東站影響了塑膠原料漲幅達7月標準的物價的調整的一個指引您之前發布的是濾清嘛"},{"start":12110.638,"end":12123.78,"text":"那有沒有考慮評估一下這是塑膠的部分第二個也研議一下就是剛剛講到的副主席提到的如果因為物量短缺造成延宕的履約指引這個有沒有可能更明確一點"},{"start":12127.329,"end":12150.501,"text":"事實上整個工程會的合約換本裡面的物條不限於哪一個項目你們針對濾芯發布了啊濾芯是因為比較立即嘛 那塑膠呢那個我們當時的處理裡面就包括這個塑膠硬管等等的塑膠硬管也包含在內了 包含在裡面不是只有濾芯 當然當然"},{"start":12151.502,"end":12166.888,"text":"那恭喜的部分有沒有可能有更明確的去研議一下好那這部分可能要整體來到時候我們可能看看因為當時針對疫情有特別的處理啦那針對這一次的可能我們要再整體研究看看好那主委那就拜託了"},{"start":12167.888,"end":12191.347,"text":"好 那因為工期根據合約嘛 是那如果說對工期有爭議那可以到工程會來請求諮詢啦那諮詢的時候我們基本上態度是因為這次是中東戰爭的原因那麼所以比較同意那麼可以合理的調整工期很好 感謝我們主委這樣的一個開明的公佈 謝謝"},{"start":12197.868,"end":12219.638,"text":"好 謝謝仲嘉斌委員的發言 接著有請我們洪玉祥委員來質詢好 謝謝主席 有請這個工程會主委有請陳主委好 主委很早"},{"start":12221.761,"end":12245.932,"text":"我想今天大概兩個問題而已在前一陣子來講我們國防採購的大漏洞對不對室內裝修商福邁國際的話可以去標炸藥原料大石國際協商可以去做步槍的底火更扯的是我們的茶行可以去標這些資安海軍的伺服器等等所以呢在我們過去的這段時間發生的時候我們就覺得"},{"start":12249.414,"end":12275.447,"text":"台灣的奇蹟很厲害從小本生意做到國安軍火那除了這個之外如果再把過去的歷史高端環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩超市公司50萬資本一人公司可以去做超過這麼多資本額的一個案子那我們的捷運就覺得說很厲害這些茶要配炸藥小吃配快篩"},{"start":12277.456,"end":12285.707,"text":"這是另類的台灣奇蹟比我們護國神山還要厲害我想要問主委是發生這些事情"},{"start":12286.547,"end":12313.653,"text":"那工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法作為請教主委跟委員說明這個政務採購法裡面這個採購單位他本來就可以增訂他採購的項目設定禮約禮約的能力跟他的資格那麼或者是相關的法規都有那採購單位他可以根據這個可以訂定所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":12314.485,"end":12340.523,"text":"不是合理的坦白講會不會怪怪的委員講的也言過其實啦所以你剛才講說工程會打造台灣奇蹟那算了那回到這個你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎這就因為每個採購有他的這個訂定的這個採購的合約啦他的這個要採購的東西而且你舉的個案我的建議是這樣子啦你舉的個案就是貿易"},{"start":12341.684,"end":12363.159,"text":"他有的是他是貿易並不是廠商今天如果說我如果一個做茶葉的廠商我要去投生產生產火藥那個當然這個是資格不符如果說他這個公司他的營業項目這個牽涉到這個就是我現在的要求就是說因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案"},{"start":12364.62,"end":12382.761,"text":"基本上來講我是覺得公家部門在這個地方可能工程會可以去要求就是說它不見得是刑事審查商業登記那個我花了一百塊就有了我勾一個資訊服務項目我就可以去標這樣子來講是代表是說我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查"},{"start":12384.352,"end":12400.897,"text":"像這個像這個茶葉行去做這個資安的話也是啊他就是原本沒有得標的公司他是被停權的嘛所以我再找一個友好廠商去標標完之後再轉包給他所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工"},{"start":12402.185,"end":12424.484,"text":"所以我是要求的是說這些都過去沒有問題我們要解決問題嘛所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢就是實質的廠商的資格的審查去包含他的專案時機嘛那第二個剛剛很多委員都問過的就是我們現在很多被停權的公司幾十多年子公司啊"},{"start":12425.703,"end":12441.157,"text":"負責人透過友好廠商去標的然後他可能也用他自己的這些以前的禮監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等這些東西在你們現在工程會的這些不管是優質廠商 黑名單廠商有沒有這樣子的機會"},{"start":12443.178,"end":12468.828,"text":"我們當然可以集合啦包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供有個資料庫給這個集合準不準相關的這個採購機關甚至我們採購法的修正本來要防度這種停權了又換個公司或子公司這沒關係我希望是可以給我一個報告因為我覺得這個東西很重要因為二十幾年來都是這種問題好不好再來"},{"start":12470.268,"end":12494.114,"text":"接下來第二個問題這個是因為我從資通訊產業來這個我們資訊服務政府很多資訊服務系統的採購我們資服務業20幾年來包含軟體工會TCA台北市電腦工會電電工會各城市的這些的電腦工會等等其實IT資訊採購跟我們一般造橋部是完全不一樣的同意吧 主委"},{"start":12495.988,"end":12519.107,"text":"這個當然是不一樣的所以這裡頭我列了這幾個問題我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚第一個這個規格很難定然後我治安在合規一開始就要下去而不是等到最後再來去做治安的合規檢測因為你前面資格難定就是實施的機關單位他又沒辦法去控制這個規格的變化"},{"start":12520.848,"end":12543.474,"text":"所以需求一直變更然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格我做下去我又沒有利潤所以慢慢的就是形成劣幣就驅逐良幣就一路一路做下去然後這個技術迭代又很快所以那時候我們就覺得說很棒啊這也是你們工程會前副主委葉澤良對不對那時候找了速發部去訂了資訊服務系統採購指引後面113年還訂了雲服務的採購的範本"},{"start":12550.199,"end":12571.983,"text":"可是這些都是指引範本我們業界覺得不錯了有進步炒了20幾年但是我們希望是錄法可是我們就很期待你的這個修改修法但是沒有看到這一塊所以我們就覺得說你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊好好去思考可以嗎"},{"start":12573.949,"end":12602.608,"text":"跟委員報告坦白講有關資訊的採購確實陳如文所講的他具有相當的專業性啦所以因為上面我們這一塊當然都是跟速發部還有跟速發部推給你知道嗎所以我們後來就是把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本嘛但是因為以我們我們現在對他的理解因為他並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條要去修改他基本上還是整個現有採購法的"},{"start":12604.23,"end":12630.792,"text":"我們是希望等一下我修改也可以我是可以幫你列一列專章如果委員有比較具體的到底是針對哪一條我們也很歡迎說可以提供給我們因為我們確實不是這方面的專家好 那我是覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論因為我也找了葉澤良我也找了當時我們寫這些因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與我是覺得這個東西指引沒有人要看"},{"start":12631.734,"end":12634.028,"text":"指引我假設我是一個執行單位不遵守會怎樣"},{"start":12635.953,"end":12664.995,"text":"這個就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂所以說拜託台灣是我們政府是AI行動內閣這一點要記住所以我的要求就是資訊服務採購的作業指引可以是入法的我們這個會後是可以討論的幫我們的產業做一點因為台灣是數位通訊對不對數位資通訊的王國可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的政府的採購也很糟糕所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強"},{"start":12665.936,"end":12688.262,"text":"好不好這可以嗎好謝謝謝謝洪玉祥委員的發言我們接著有請林楚瑩委員發言林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在接著請楊瓊瑩委員發言楊瓊瑩委員楊瓊瑩委員不在接著請游浩委員發言"},{"start":12702.157,"end":12703.604,"text":"謝謝趙偉 那有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":12711.838,"end":12731.67,"text":"委員長還是再次感謝工程會對南投許多災修的協助在這裡還是再次表達感謝在剛才的話今天的許多的議題通通環繞著不管是釐清還有包括許多原物料的目前制度性風險的問題"},{"start":12733.251,"end":12755.274,"text":"那其實目前來講公共工程那也是一個國家重大的一個建設發展的火車頭那同樣的在目前來講擔心的不管是缺錢缺人缺料那我相信在目前全球化的風險以及包括這次的美伊戰爭中東的這個衝突之下那其實大家需要做一些提前的預警跟預防"},{"start":12756.115,"end":12783.07,"text":"那在這裡的話除了我們在這個料的部分之前那我想要請教一下主委目前賴清德總統他有提到這個要引進這個印度的勞工來台灣從事這個相關的工作那在年底的話就要開放1000位那我想問一下對於目前這個引進印度外勞的這個部分公共城委員會是持什麼樣的立場跟態度"},{"start":12783.669,"end":12803.691,"text":"我這個尊重勞動部的政策我們因為不是我們主管業務所以工程會沒有特別意見就看整個中二政策或是勞動部他的政策那目前整體在國家中大建設工程或是這些公共工程的缺工狀況是沒有缺工還是都是順利的"},{"start":12804.292,"end":12814.722,"text":"如果說有個案缺工狀況尤其是公務工程的部分公務工程委內會協助業者跟這個勞動部啊來專案來專案來這個就是讓移工進來這是我們有潛力可循"},{"start":12823.09,"end":12850.541,"text":"我們的角色就是在公共工程如果說個案有缺工那我們會去跟勞動部來協調好 那今天來講勞動部當然是打算引進這印度的移工進來但是因為這個在台灣來講過去這樣子的一個不管是文化或者是宗教信仰或是包括他們生活習慣習性的部分都跟目前我們台灣的許多的一些生活型態是有蠻大的一個不同"},{"start":12851.121,"end":12866.906,"text":"那我想問一下那目前在以公共工程的缺工狀況那這樣子的引進對於我們台灣的這種公共工程的就是勞動力的補充來講是真的有幫助嗎還是說反而實際上的效果不大"},{"start":12867.765,"end":12886.307,"text":"包委真的是引進來國的移工不是工程會的業務啦所以這個要尊重勞動部他的政策那主委回的保守啊因為缺工問題是事實但是沒有關係因為這個部分當然你才是尊重勞動部他們的立場跟業務啊那我能夠理解"},{"start":12886.707,"end":12913.782,"text":"但是本席還是在這裡表達目前來講缺工問題確實嚴重但是引進的這個移工還是不是跟本勞之間的相對的這個競合關係我覺得還是要去思考那如何能夠刺激誘因讓本勞還能夠投入在公共工程的一個勞動力短缺的部分的一個填補上那有時候如果是直接去開放的這個印度的外勞還移工來這邊台灣來進行"},{"start":12915.603,"end":12942.753,"text":"那是不是實際上對公共工程的缺工有幫助還是到最後反而衍生出是更多的社會問題我覺得其實工程會主委可能也要跟勞動部這邊來表達還其實真的需求跟意見那不能夠直接賴總統或許是美意可是實際上如果到社會的環境跟整體的一個勞動力的市場來講造成更大的衝擊我覺得可能是不是這個移工來的狀況需要再做討論跟檢討"},{"start":12945.578,"end":12971.693,"text":"那同樣的那缺料的部分那在目前的這個美伊衝突在中東的石油危機卓偉你認為會越演越烈嗎這個也是國安的判斷可能要請教外交部會比較清楚不行啦卓偉你自己判斷他應該會認為也是越演越烈你有在看政經新聞這方面我們的確是外行卓偉你太客氣了你以前在宜蘭縣都對地方那麼了解"},{"start":12973.734,"end":12998.689,"text":"那其實那個直接可以預判就是越演越烈啦那在談判破裂之下的話其實這個石油啊包括相關天然氣等等的還有各種的原料其實都是會更加的緊繃啦所以說這個是可以預期啦那我本席還是要在這裡表達因為目前來講的話不管是在濾清那濾清的部分短缺的部分剛才有提到這個目前的存量是都夠了嘛"},{"start":12999.679,"end":13024.581,"text":"荔青還有一些庫存庫存大概可以用多久我知道中碩那邊有四萬五千噸的庫存然後他們台碩化也在加緊生產那中油除了生產之外他也在採購現貨來補足這個需求那總之這個是沒有辦法因為做柏油原料大部分是來自於中東"},{"start":13025.922,"end":13048.053,"text":"就算要在中東採購柏油 那也有一些困難那個船隻也有一些困難 目前只是說我們因為台灣的確是資源匱乏 台灣的確什麼都沒有所以這方面是政府包括卓院長他也這個包括副院長也都開專案會議然後希望這些有能力的廠商以供應國內優先"},{"start":13049.614,"end":13077.883,"text":"那那個剛才所提到的這個濾清的他目前的這個目前的存量那的這個統計是數據是大概是什麼時候來確認的跟這些我大概是上個禮拜上個禮拜那大約目前在現行的這種這個搬挖工程的施作上大約幾個月的量還算充足根據經濟部的最初的說法是說到6月啦不過我想如果中縮化調整他的生產"},{"start":13078.843,"end":13103.844,"text":"程序之後那麼應該持續供應是沒有問題的所以現在來講是濾清供應不中斷嗎?濾清的供應是不中斷的?不會 不會有 這不是博弈喔這個公司供應給業者的博弈是不會中斷的而且他也就發出發出信函給工會的那在這個部分的話有沒有跟工會或者相關的業者有統計是不是有囤積的狀況?"},{"start":13107.706,"end":13117.034,"text":"如果是柏油的話就兩家而已而且是公開的資訊這庫存是供應那至於力清工會的部分"},{"start":13118.12,"end":13138.815,"text":"我們是不是有我請副主委來回答跟委員報告齁那個我們工程會這邊管的大概是力清混泥土我們不直接去管力清油那力清混泥土的部分當然是有力清工會這邊有來喊那可是同時我們也都有詢問北中南東各個力清的這些公司去調查這個行情"},{"start":13139.736,"end":13153.694,"text":"那這個行情大概過去我們調查的時候大概是三月底四月初這個階段不過那個時候大概也從源頭這邊主委跟在行政院這些經濟部或是院長這邊大家副院長其實大家都一直在掌握這個狀況那所以現在"},{"start":13157.398,"end":13179.614,"text":"接下來大概確定說是供給會大於需求啦其實依照歷史經驗來講生產量供給量其實都會大於這個階段的需求量那價格上漲那是一時可能有一些市場的反應恐慌的反應的行情接下來其實公平會也會持續去關心這個價格那因為時間有限那我大致上就補充一下"},{"start":13180.214,"end":13199.386,"text":"所以說目前來講的話其實原油主要這個能夠用這些濾情的這種重油還是在中東啦那像美國俄羅斯的部分尤其是美國部分是沒有辦法去用在這一種的項目上那其實目前看得下國際震驚情勢在中東的戰爭會越演越烈那所以說在經濟部他們是不是了解到這個原料"},{"start":13200.266,"end":13225.844,"text":"石油是不是能夠真的來台灣的這個部分不能過於樂觀啦不能過於樂觀那同時現在來講是還在一個我們這邊沒戰事的一個狀況那是一般的基本需求還有原料上面的這種基礎建設那坦白講我們要肯定鄭麗文主席的和平之旅那能夠讓兩岸來講目前不交戰火的這種機率下降那不然假如這個整個"},{"start":13227.125,"end":13241.066,"text":"中東的一個戰爭火藥庫到時候燒到亞太地區的話那其實各種的戰備假如需要的這種存量的這種基礎建設的原物料那都是沒有大家在顧忌的"},{"start":13242.768,"end":13263.997,"text":"所以說這個部分其實都應該要並如考量我們看到中東的戰事會需要這些原物料那在台灣假如未來亞太地區也發生類似的狀況的時候到底是不是有足夠的原物料來供給那至於中東的石油目前來講也不能夠過於樂觀那所以說原物料的相關的掌控還是有賴工程會這邊持續的跟進謝謝"},{"start":13273.864,"end":13300.705,"text":"好 謝謝油花委員的發言登記域諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定第一 報告及詢答完畢委員許新穎 林儲英所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束 散會"},{"start":13305.22,"end":13305.444,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}