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宣讀完畢"},{"start":1713.717,"end":1736.202,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員黃建斌黃委員以及今天列席官員名單國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長國防部徐思簡徐副部長陸軍副參謀總長李天龍李副參謀總長"},{"start":1744.955,"end":1751.936,"text":"戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計畫參謀次長是需求處鄭永熙鄭處長電子資訊參謀次長是電站處徐存成徐處長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長"},{"start":1775.083,"end":1786.312,"text":"海軍司令部朱惠民參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長內政部警政署李文章副署長移民署謝文忠副署長海洋委員會副主任委員兼海軍署張忠龍張署長"},{"start":1805.165,"end":1808.306,"text":"海域安全處陳昭陽陳處長海巡署巡防組洪柏昇洪組長海巡署情報組蘇權成蘇組長海巡署通電資訊組林昇和林組長"},{"start":1832.162,"end":1839.405,"text":"海巡署特別行動中心主任林天佑林主任大陸委員會梁文傑梁副主委交通部船港局葉協榮葉局長航政司韓振華韓司長"},{"start":1878.723,"end":1890.792,"text":"本次會議邀請國家安全局、國防部、內政部、海洋委員會報告針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之徵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備監制進度"},{"start":1894.855,"end":1898.099,"text":"與精進作為並備質詢我們今天有邀請國安局國防部內政部以及海洋委員會那目前內政部相關的主管還沒有到達現場所以我們等他到的時候我們再繼續開會我們現在先休息"},{"start":4397.728,"end":4423.527,"text":"我們繼續開會內政部長有請次長過來我們等一下希望大家尊重立法院然後也尊重我們所有出席的這些部會還有相關單位的大家互相尊重因為大家的時間都是時間讓我們整屋子的人等一個人非常離譜那我們現在首先請國安局蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":4435.72,"end":4455.203,"text":"主席、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生大家好感謝大院安排本局進行近期中國籍小型船隻非法入侵我國領海相關問題的專題報告本局僅以眾理國家安全情報工作立場提出說明跟意見如次主要包括有五大部分,主要跟大家來做說明"},{"start":4455.703,"end":4470.506,"text":"第一部分是有關於小型船隻侵擾的樣態那我們在這邊規整大概有三個主要的樣態那第一個樣態就是侵擾本島跟外島的方式不太一樣那我們縱觀對我外離島侵擾的一個查獲的案例大部分都是無動力的三板船閥"},{"start":4471.167,"end":4500.255,"text":"那但是在對我們本島地區的侵擾主要就是以小型船艇搭配懸崖機為主要的一個操作的方式那第二部分我們也注意到有些中級人士偷渡來台那他的時間點也剛好配合到中國對我國來發動相關的戰備的演訓那我們不排除這是中共刻意在台海遂行海上揮帶侵擾的一環那第三部分是在這些所謂的小型船隻的偷渡活動的同時也注意到"},{"start":4500.675,"end":4521.233,"text":"有些案例中共它有系統性的去運用相關的自媒體傳散證訊跟短影音那目的就在渲染我們海防監控失靈的一個狀況那第二部分跟大家說明跟報告的是有關於非法侵入的特點分析那我們大概重列了有五個特點我足以跟大家做個提報那第一部分是這些小型的船體比較容易取得"},{"start":4521.613,"end":4549.6,"text":"那中級的人士只要透過網路的電商平台就可以購得這些小型的船艇搭配到巡外機來進行偷渡的活動那第二部分是我們有盤點這些偷渡者的背景那主要都來自於像是廣西、廣東、福建、浙江、江蘇等等的中國大陸沿海的省份那在清巡的過程當中也都一貫的會去強調他們嚮往民主自由還有尋求政治庇護的這些說辭引以他們真實的犯罪動機那第三部分是"},{"start":4550.6,"end":4580.18,"text":"主要的侵擾是以我們的外離島特別是金門、馬祖為主那本島地區主要都集中在苗栗、淡水、林口、桃園等等的海域岸際那不排除中共是藉由這些侵擾來測試我們海防應處的能量那在後發的時間部分那我們重整相關的案例發現春季跟夏季是主要的中共侵擾的一個高峰期那因為這個季節我們周邊海上相對穩定那統計相關的侵擾事件可以發現大部分都發生在"},{"start":4580.62,"end":4604.473,"text":"每年的四月到八月之間那九月之後因為受到東北季風的影響案件就非常明顯的減少那另外一個特點就是這些小型的船體因為面積體積比較小對於水深的要求比較低所以他只要利用相關的礁岩區或防波堤的邊緣配合到漲潮就可以進行到灘頭的一個靠岸那第三部分跟大家說明的是目前海岸巡防主要遭遇到的一些"},{"start":4605.814,"end":4620.939,"text":"致愛了那我們也是列出有三點第一個部分就是台灣的本外島海岸線比較長所以河口灘灣比較多那也比較容易形成我們查查的盲區那這部分可能有待我們相關的海防單位持續來建置科技化跟系統化的監偵的設備"},{"start":4622.299,"end":4646.642,"text":"那第二部分的一個問題是在於我們所提到的這些小型的橡皮艇那它的材質比較特殊那可能在雷達的電磁波反射上面的訊號比較微弱不好偵獲所以這部分也涉及到我們後續怎麼來強化海上跟岸基目標的一個偵控的一個措施那第三部分是第一線的海防的人力是需要龐大的人力所以這部分可能由來我們第一線的海防單位"},{"start":4647.222,"end":4664.177,"text":"包括海巡警察跟國軍能夠建立起比較高效聯防通報的一個機制才能夠及時來掌握相關的海防的狀況那第四部分是有關於情報收援的重點那因為本局是國家情報機關所以我們大概列出了四個重點跟大家做說明"},{"start":4664.597,"end":4691.01,"text":"那第一部分是加強聯合情搜及時的應處那本局會透過專案的平台強化海域情搜研以及應處的能量那透由我們聯防的機制來進行必要的通報提供我們全責機關來進行相關的偵處以及追查犯罪的動機還有背後的網絡那第二部分我們會深化跟國際友盟的協作那我們國安情報機關會持續的來精進對於周邊海域情資的整合比對可疑威脅的目標"},{"start":4691.97,"end":4717.527,"text":"來強化增資、識別、應儲的一個效能並且跟我們的國際友盟來加強情誌的交流拓展對於中共海上灰帶侵擾的情收的一個深度跟廣度那第三我們會接觸到科技來消除相關的增防的盲區那本區會持續的跟國際友方來交流海域安全應儲的經驗那延續怎麼樣來運用科技的裝備加強目標的識別相關的策略跟做法"},{"start":4717.927,"end":4733.333,"text":"那另外也會依照國家情報工作法來指導統合協調國內相關的單位強化我們國家的案際監控的效能那第四點是我們會來溯源揭露相關的爭議訊息的操作那本局會持續的統合國安情報團隊"},{"start":4734.594,"end":4754.353,"text":"來註收中共跟他的協力網絡那怎麼樣來運用官宣或是自媒體傳散透露來台各種的微廠證訊那並且透過溯源查查揭露中共運用認知作戰操作對我複合式威脅的各種的手法那最後一部分是捷運那近年來中共利用小型的船艇頻繁的來侵擾我國的海域安全那已經"},{"start":4755.073,"end":4777.449,"text":"嚴重的影響到我們的國家安全那本局會持續的透過各種的專案機制密鑄各項危安預警的情資那並且來引進外國海防警備的經驗協助強化我國海域安全監控的能力防範境外敵對勢力滲透破壞卻為我國的海域安全跟社會安定那以上報告敬請各位委員先進持續給我們指導跟支持謝謝"},{"start":4785.44,"end":4807.111,"text":"接著請國防部徐副部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進 各位女士先生 大家好國防部整合國軍各勤監偵單位對重要目標進行偵查 辨識 勤傳 處理與分發作業"},{"start":4811.894,"end":4830.321,"text":"有效监控台湾周边各项活动提供国军各级部队预警及后续决策处置之依据今日报告将分成政策指导国军联合监侦作业国军应处作为及结语四个部分以下依序报告"},{"start":4831.363,"end":4847.984,"text":"二政策指導國軍以防衛國家安全為主要任務與海巡共同維護主權為原則一海巡需求及海上任務綜合支援協定書實施支援三國軍聯合監偵作業"},{"start":4850.93,"end":4876.269,"text":"國軍利用雷達、電子偵搜及開源情字等多元手段針對共艦、外艦、可移商船、岸船、大型民用船舶、公務船舶、滾裝貨輪及機魚船實施偵查、辨識及侵船作業透由海巡署及我國國級漁船通報機制共同執行海上目標查證"},{"start":4879.8,"end":4886.503,"text":"四國軍應處作為一海上任務支援協定書國軍戰備規定突發狀況處置規定及聯合勤監偵作業規定相關應處作為如下一"},{"start":4892.679,"end":4910.616,"text":"情資支援並用現行監偵手段持續掌握中共艦船動態並依現有機制通報海巡署應處另透過連程及雷情顯示資訊系統執行海上艦船情資動態分享"},{"start":4913.396,"end":4939.919,"text":"必利共同掌握海上动态二勤务支援并海军主要任务为海上作战海巡署负责海域执法支援则中共非军事舰船以海巡署应处为主当海巡署执行海上交通维持海难救助渔业巡护需向海军提出支援时一令前往支援二"},{"start":4941.155,"end":4958.214,"text":"国军凭战时作为一平时针对单一小型船只透过海巡署暗计雷达系统掌握其位置与活动情形由海巡署执行应酬而战时针对指向台湾各类舰艇"},{"start":4959.295,"end":4977.267,"text":"运用雷达电子侦搜及开源情资等管道结合海巡署暗计雷达系统与未来将建置各类监侦型无人机配合其他兵力建置重层警戒幕掌握船团动态事切应处"},{"start":4978.211,"end":4998.943,"text":"三国军针对小型目标掌握不易难以及时辨别未来将整合多元监侦手段结合AI技术分析建立预警与复判机制从被动监控转向主动预警及及早识别异常活动提升应变的效率"},{"start":4999.964,"end":5027.405,"text":"令透过共同图像协同海巡署先期完成态势掌握与抑制部署提前因应潜在威胁提升嚇阻效果四有关未来各类监侦型无人机与AI决策辅助系统均在强化防卫任性及不对称战力特别预算中规划筹构必利后续整体监侦能量提升也希望大院能及早竞速审议"},{"start":5028.786,"end":5055.441,"text":"五節與國軍秉持不升高衝突不挑起爭端原則持續與海巡署密切合作掌握中共灰色地帶襲擾樣態應對中共的威脅堅定捍衛國家主權及守護海域安全以上報告敬請各位先進指導 謝謝接下來請內政部董次長上台報告"},{"start":5065.39,"end":5087.609,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好本部奉邀列席貴委員會質詢針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法入侵我國領海之徵收漏洞檢討科技監測設備限制進度與精進作為提出專案報告並備詢敬請各位委員與會議指導首先就現行執行作為"},{"start":5088.57,"end":5106.227,"text":"本部警政署及移民署定期參與行政院查緝走私偷渡聯繫匯報透過跨機關的勤職整合以及及時的聯繫機制那麼精進勤務的部署與執行策略必力協助海洋委員會與海巡署防堵偷渡等不法活動確保國際安全與社會治安"},{"start":5107.268,"end":5126.087,"text":"本部在查獲大陸地區人民偷渡案件時,系透過民眾檢舉或員警執行勤勞、民檢等勤務,於查證當事人身份時,使發現偷渡來台,原依違反《入出國及移民法》等第74條未進入許可入境來偵辦。"},{"start":5127.768,"end":5152.308,"text":"本部警政署持續督導各警察機關針對易發生偷渡的熱點以及治安顧慮場所積極規劃並落實加強查勤勤務例如在各港警總隊加強管制站人車的管制勤務並且針對港區偵查盲點可能偷渡的熱點加強巡防勤務並結合轄區的海巡機關實施聯合巡查勤務強化國境安全"},{"start":5153.129,"end":5168.505,"text":"各直轄縣市政府警察局也針對治安顧慮場所規劃勤務查緝等不法措施那麼我們的相關的特定作為包括說溯源提供海巡署的繼續查我們有要求我們的移民署及警政署"},{"start":5168.985,"end":5193.553,"text":"在查獲大陸地區人民偷渡來台時那麼確實掌握幕後不法動機了解其真實身份背景入境意圖以國內是否有聯絡人接應者兩岸人蛇集團背後操控偷渡方式偷渡地點聯繫方式偷渡價金支付方式來台後場域及工作地點等情資那麼提供海洋委員會及海巡署繼續做相關的處理"},{"start":5195.814,"end":5213.832,"text":"另外我們也強化情資的收集與分享本部警政署及移民署強化情資的收集,堂有具體的情資及通報相關代位藉由聯合查緝阻攔目標,即使堵絕外來人士偷渡案件的發生以維護社會治安以及國家安全"},{"start":5214.873,"end":5228.561,"text":"同時我們也強化大陸偷渡犯的收容替代期間的一些管理本部移民署針對收容替代之大陸偷渡犯以強化監控作為要求他們每日必須接受該署專情隊的電話聯繫每三日必須到專情隊報到並明確告知不得接受採訪"},{"start":5235.244,"end":5254.742,"text":"離峽前必須報備同意以及不得進入重要軍事設施及國家安全軍事機關等相關管制區域等規範另外該署也會試個案包括對外國人以及中國大陸人士評估風險必要時指定居住於適當場所強化監控管理"},{"start":5255.803,"end":5265.675,"text":"第四,我們也研修法令以制度面透過制度面來完善整個完整的配套本部名屬已均於112年修正入出國籍移民法"},{"start":5266.673,"end":5296.016,"text":"明定違反收容替代處分者可再次收容為進一步強化收容替代期間之管理作為該署於114年底再研修、增訂涉有危害國家安全之餘者再次收容等修正條例草案目前已循法治程序呈報行政院審查中現行大陸通渡犯如於收容替代期間違反相關法令移民署將依現行台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例規定再與收容"},{"start":5296.576,"end":5306.189,"text":"堂有個案爭議將依情節 函請大陸委員會解釋後及繼續法辦以上報告恭請各位委員先進指教 謝謝接下來請海洋委員會張副主委上台報告"},{"start":5320.134,"end":5348.164,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士先生 大家好海委會緊就海巡署的所業館部分針對近期中國級小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之徵收程序以及科技見證設備建置以精進作為 摘要報告如下本會海巡署就防患小型目標偷渡侵入作為 整合科技設備跟能力有關強化三道見證目的能量運作說明如下"},{"start":5348.724,"end":5375.773,"text":"那第一個部分是雷達監控部分靈活應用船舶自動辨別系統漁船監控系統海情資訊系統以及雷情系統以及艦船艇的艇上雷達落實海上目標的增資第二個部分是守望的監控目標脫離雷達的監控守望服務儀增收設備充分掌握發揮護士監控的效能第三項是岸際巡邏部分掌握轄區特性以及治安違規熱區"},{"start":5378.214,"end":5404.333,"text":"規劃巡邏路線及巡邏點至重點於雷達盲區守望監控死角超前部署機動兵力及時查處另外為了彌補上述相關的這些缺漏有關海巡署就近期科技監偵設備的建置緊究岸際雷達系統防外線熱影像系統以及反彈智慧型監控系統說明如下海巡署岸際雷達可依照轄區特性以及天候海上狀況彈性調整偵測參數"},{"start":5408.096,"end":5422.331,"text":"來強化目標的增貨率另外配合國土安全防衛任性特別預算目前正在規劃建置最先進的雷達設備並導入AI自動判斷功能以利提升對小型目標的增資與識別並且減少人力的負擔"},{"start":5423.092,"end":5450.91,"text":"同時海巡組正積極規劃籌建黃岸線熱影相系統以及環島智慧型岸際監控系統以彌補雷達監控的下系紅色海灘大陸海警船滋擾海域大陸越界漁船聚集的熱區小型目標偷渡高風險的區域海濫的風險海域以及救生救難的熱區等區域以涵蓋不同距離岸海監控的熱區強化並且強化夜間徵收的能量"},{"start":5451.59,"end":5473.992,"text":"另外,針對小型目標偷渡威脅,業宇整合科技設備以及人力部署,全面提升徵收預警以及即時運輸的能力,並且落實勤務的紀律,密駐海面目標的動態,機動預置兵力,以達到攔截於海上,阻絕於岸際的目標,並持續強化防堵作為,以確保國際安全無力。以上報告,敬請委員執教。"},{"start":5483.052,"end":5499.196,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請王定宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長跟陸委會副主委"},{"start":5511.492,"end":5513.86,"text":"請國安局長以及陸委會副主委"},{"start":5522.4,"end":5549.081,"text":"我先請教這個在台灣一個民主的台灣最大的在野黨國民黨去訪問中國跟中共的總書記習近平見面之後中國端出了所謂十大會台不過我昨天仔細看了啦這以前在什麼21會台啦15會台長得都很像啦這個十大會台它是加了兩它加了政治前提"},{"start":5550.47,"end":5559.845,"text":"弄了一個政治架構是單向的迴避台灣政府參與的我先請教國安會國安局有關這一個"},{"start":5561.466,"end":5588.126,"text":"我們台灣的在野黨訪問中國這件事情以及中國因應的局勢國安會有沒有進行討論過對 這部分早上跟媒體朋友在做說明這一次中共的操作大概有三個層面戰略面就強調台海的核戰是由他來主導來排除外力的介入另外一部分是在政治上強調所謂的中華民族的偉大復興還有兩岸和平的制度化發展"},{"start":5589.186,"end":5611.234,"text":"內容都只有中華人民共和國的語彙導到所謂的一中的政治框架那再來就是經濟上的一個吸納來增加我們對它的一個經濟市場力量有啊 它的金馬四通也好 或者公共國際市場當然那個議題要好好討論 而且應該是政府對政府那個是建立依存度把它內化進去我剛才問的是說我們國安會有沒有針對這個局勢因為後面還有川習會"},{"start":5612.214,"end":5626.052,"text":"有沒有針對這個進行討論我們都有在各部會交換相關的意見那也對於最新的發展由各部會來對外做完整的討論所以國安會有進行討論那我要請教啦就你們目前分析這個所謂十大會台會的是誰"},{"start":5627.671,"end":5649.953,"text":"對,我今天早上在跟媒體說明了,這種所謂會台措施大概每到台灣選舉期間就會被提出來討論那兩岸的觀光或是農漁產品的採購也是歷來都被拿出來做中方的一個操作那所以我們在解讀上認為這是一個統戰跟競選的一個手法我看起來不管叫中小企業去投資,現在中國的經濟下滑嘛"},{"start":5650.831,"end":5675.565,"text":"台灣的經濟還不錯去投資到底是匯到誰那比方說他又要開放農產品農產品我們吃的虧還不夠多啊2019年以前我們台灣的農產品80%其實是內銷的兩成左右外銷以前兩成左右外銷像我們關廟的鳳梨我們外銷大概有八成多以前依賴中國市場他莫名其妙沒有理由的一下鳳梨一下蓮霧一下鳳梨釋迦"},{"start":5678.083,"end":5700.924,"text":"他想要製造我們外銷的農產品出不去回來影響到我們國內市場以農逼政後來從2020年開始前政府蔡英文政府到現在我們的分散市場已經把對中國依賴的八成左右現在降到大概10%上下已經壓低了像鳳梨現在日本是我們第一大市場我請教陸委會副主委這是你的業務"},{"start":5702.205,"end":5722.782,"text":"有關中國的十大會台他有一個政治前提他的一中是沒有中華民國的啦他的反台獨中國的反台獨是台灣中華民國維持現狀任何主權形式的用途他都定義成台獨他加了兩個政治前提才要跟你隱世交流才要跟你中小企業等等等等"},{"start":5723.843,"end":5731.851,"text":"然後呢他這個過程是單向決定沒有我們政府的角色透過在野黨扶植在國內的附庸啦陸委會對這事情態度是什麼"},{"start":5736.309,"end":5759.546,"text":"陸委會的看法是這樣就是說這一次對中共來講的話它所獲得的不管在統戰上的效果在國際社會上面的宣傳的效果對美中台關係影響的效果然後對接下來可能美台軍售的影響效果都遠遠大於這十項所謂的會台措施"},{"start":5760.939,"end":5779.611,"text":"就是說中共整個他在宣傳上的這個得到的好處這個實相措施是根本是遠遠不能比的這實相措施其實你仔細看了他其實過去都是曾經有過的都講過的比較新的可能就是所謂遠洋漁船的這個部分"},{"start":5780.472,"end":5803.728,"text":"那這個部分我們還在研究但是其他的部分其實對台灣的不管是他其實其他是舊品裝舊酒不過你剛才講的翻譯起來是說這個十大會談以前都提過了對那對台灣有沒有什麼好處遠不如對中國的好處沒有錯甚至於對台灣的傷害有關對美軍購啦我們對外的相關的事情安全的事務那個傷害"},{"start":5804.488,"end":5822.95,"text":"弊大於利你剛才表達的是這個嗎沒有錯我請教他們說要開放自由行我們現在政府的態度是什麼自由行也是兩岸相關協議的其中的一個部分自由行跟團體行都是我們過去曾經有過的協議的一部分"},{"start":5823.47,"end":5848.631,"text":"那自由行他們是2019年就把它片面斷掉了那所以要再開的話這個就跟要重開這個團體行是一樣的也就是說我們還是希望說兩邊的小兩會能夠先做會談會談把一些東西敲定之後再來進行但是因為我們一直發出多次的呼籲希望對方能夠跟我們重新啟動小兩會的"},{"start":5850.992,"end":5872.569,"text":"這個協商但是目前對方是完全沒有回應所以團體型的部分一直都卡在這邊那現在又突然又要講說要自由行那我覺得狀況還是一樣就是說不管團體型自由行都是要他們的口頭表示是開放可是作為上根本是不處理對作為上沒有他完全不處理譬如說他說他幾個兩三個月前"},{"start":5876.095,"end":5896.731,"text":"宣布說什麼上海上海可以到上海居民可以到金門馬祖對但是到目前為止為止他們並沒有宣布具體的措施因為那個不是開放就開放我要去你家也要約時間啊對沒有錯要從門進去還是從窗進去那一樣的一個國家要入境有很多東西要處理所以他現在在實質的作為上沒有做法"},{"start":5897.331,"end":5919.222,"text":"恐會而實不至目前沒有看到目前阻擋的不是我們嘛我們是開放的態度大家可以來談他現在是不跟我們的官方談片面要放那上一次說上海可以到金門到目前為止也沒有實質的執行層次的磋商都沒有沒有錯因為大陸大陸人民他要到台灣來他必須當地的公安局他必須要說"},{"start":5920.843,"end":5940.811,"text":"大家可以來申請我可以批准你到我們講這個大同鎮批准你到台灣去那現在上海市的 不管是上海市的公安局也好福建市的公安局也好 福建省的公安局也好都沒有宣布說上海居民可以申請到台灣去的旅遊簽證"},{"start":5942.111,"end":5968.368,"text":"所以就是一個口頭宣示沒有實質做法不過他好像很刻意的就是迴避跟台灣民選的政府進行接觸這個是不切實際的啦公權力台灣是民主國家公權力的授權來自於人民選舉的結果你迴避公權力的授權怎麼處理入出境的問題好那個副主委先請回我繼續請教我們國安局局長那請國安部副部長上來啦"},{"start":5970.4,"end":5978.501,"text":"我現在這個是發想有關這一個掃雷的東西那個梁文傑副主委可以回座"},{"start":5980.832,"end":6009.01,"text":"現在我們從塑膠袋到石油到柏油AC其實都因為荷姆茲海峽鎖住了造成全球這個部分的需求量暴增供應量不足所以坦白講先不講大的經濟層面的影響其實對我們的民生各方面的需求其實有些影響那在地緣政治上你也看到了川普一直表達說你們都是我的好朋友都沒有來幫忙他還威脅要退出北約"},{"start":6010.572,"end":6028.01,"text":"那當然我們台灣在能參與的事務很有限美國也未必能接受所以我請教國安局跟國防部的副部長在安全無虞的前提下在物料後勤補給可以得到備援下"},{"start":6028.951,"end":6033.532,"text":"我們台灣適不適合表達 我們願意支援雷雷 掃雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷"},{"start":6046.984,"end":6070.786,"text":"委員提的是一個假設性的議題這未必假設 你表達出去他接受了是一件事情 他不接受 感謝你的善意也是一件事情當現在荷姆茲海峽 其實現在因為水雷就算他們停戰協議停完了 兩邊不打了船也不好過去 就是因為水雷的問題裡面遍佈數千枚水雷"},{"start":6071.627,"end":6083.466,"text":"那我們如果向美方表達說我們願意支援列雷掃雷但是我們有一些顧慮安全啦後勤補給啦表達這樣的意願他不是假設而是說這樣表達適不適合"},{"start":6085.185,"end":6110.604,"text":"基本上因為我會講的是假設性問題是目前並不是一個議題那假如像委員的這樣一個推論的話那就國安局的角度我只代表國安局來做評估的話我們會注意到的是整體的中東的安全情勢那以及台灣畢竟跟其他的美國盟友不太一樣我們還必須要審慎的評估我們當面敵情的動態你才有辦法去做一些相關病例的調整跟調度那當然後續還有一個能量的評估畢竟"},{"start":6111.384,"end":6116.813,"text":"中東地區還是比較有一些後勤補給設施必須要處理的局勢也複雜所以這部分可能是比較複雜的我請教國防部副部長你從赫姆茲海峽其實就了解其實"},{"start":6126.562,"end":6151.755,"text":"水雷這個或者智慧水雷這種不對稱戰力其實你看伊朗伊朗跟美軍的實力那個沒辦法比較的可是他用水雷把赫姆斯海峽封住了所以我現在請教你請你簡短回答第一個就是我國當然我們前面造了幾艘布雷艇我們的布雷跟智慧水雷的進度第二個我們現在掃雷艦我在去年看到你們的報告要走向所謂的智慧排雷"},{"start":6153.256,"end":6169.768,"text":"無人載具的排雷這個進度如何第三個一樣的問題在安全後勤補給無餘下台灣去表達這樣的gesture說我們願意支援川普願意支援美國國防部的評估如何這三個題目請你回答"},{"start":6170.583,"end":6195.2,"text":"先回答委員第三個題目當然委員這個想法相當有創意我們是沒有這麼想過但是我想關鍵還是委員講的兩個前提就是後勤補給跟保障方面那我們那個船這您可以看到並不大要開到荷姆斯恐怕很難開過去了沒辦法可能要用船載的方式"},{"start":6195.92,"end":6209.545,"text":"那這個就恐怕要看這個條件具不具足另外剛才國安局局長也說了我們也非常同意其實我們台海周邊戰備的負荷是很重的所以這個"},{"start":6212.246,"end":6239.741,"text":"貢建常常在襲擾那我們這個非常有限的掃雷的戰力是不是合出去我們還要評估不過委員這個想法我們再回去評估這是那個前提很重要我只是說這個議題可以思考但是第一題跟第二題才是真正的命題我們自己的水雷智慧水雷的能力我們自己的排雷列雷掃雷的能力國防部現在有計畫因為我看我們預算都放在"},{"start":6240.663,"end":6252.415,"text":"主力艦一級艦二級艦三級艦那對於這一種其實老舊的船艦資源性的船艦其實蠻嚴重的啦國防部目前有什麼想法我們請海軍參謀長回答一下"},{"start":6256.69,"end":6274.399,"text":"韓軍常務長 針對委員的題目 我們這邊回答的狀況是第一個有關掃雷的建制 我們目前持續在做但是我們是重點在濱海作戰的區域裡面不管是掃雷或是蒸雷你們無人載具掃雷的部分開始做了嗎我們是後續在規劃"},{"start":6275.359,"end":6303.38,"text":"還在規劃當中嘛 是沒有持續的戰力啊 至於掃雷的載具的部分有關掃雷艇的部分我們就持續建案在執行的OK 好 所以你認為我們現在掃雷排雷的能力夠不夠部委我們在持續在做就是遠遠不夠嘛 是我們布雷的能力呢我們布雷的能力包含了整備的能力還有後續我們剛剛有關建造持續在建造這個布雷艇的部分我們數量會持續的增加目前在持續的建構中"},{"start":6304.896,"end":6319.457,"text":"有啦,前幾年在榮德那邊造了幾艘嘛那智慧水雷的進度呢?這個持續在車購中你這樣也沒有回答今年會弄出來嗎?目前是在努力中"},{"start":6320.441,"end":6348.615,"text":"因為我們之前看到某一個美商有提供一種型號嘛是那個有進行討論嗎有有討論是那有要做還是還在討論中我們是在討論中是我覺得荷姆斯海峽是一個很好的借鏡是那時間未必站在我們這邊啦是你們持續加油謝謝委員好接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":6357.517,"end":6362.445,"text":"謝謝主席 有請海委會張忠隆副主委請海委會副主委"},{"start":6366.176,"end":6387.343,"text":"委員好副主委好副主委針對今天的這個題目我們從113年的6月到去年其實呢我們我國的西北海岸呢發生了多起的這個中國的小型船隻還有這個橡皮艇入侵的這個事件而且這個發生的地點呢都是在這個雷達的範圍之內"},{"start":6391.684,"end":6404.835,"text":"那之前我有看到這個海巡署有提到就是說因為橡皮艇因為它的目標比較小體積比較小然後再來材質反射也不容也比較弱那再加上這個浪竿的這個"},{"start":6407.317,"end":6410.52,"text":"跟這個浪竿呢其實會有一些雜訊的這個混雜所以造成我們這個雷達呢它其實是沒有辦法來做這個偵獲的那當然這也顯示表示說我們的這個行間針的這個系統其實是出了很大的這個問題"},{"start":6424.392,"end":6431.78,"text":"那當然我今天有看到這個報告就是說其實海巡署針對這些科技的這個系統其實我們有來做這個加強可是我想先問想針對這個113年6月9號"},{"start":6439.549,"end":6461.91,"text":"那這個中國的這個小船入侵的這個事件其實這些事件不單單是我們的這個監偵系統出了問題其實那個時候也有被這個監察院糾正有提出這個調查報告那有提到其實我們有人為的疏失甚至還有紀律的這個問題因為我有看到這個那個監察院的這報告裡面有提到就是說其實呢我們的海巡人員"},{"start":6462.691,"end":6489.814,"text":"相關的人員並沒有落實執行海岸巡防機關這個雷情傳遞作業要點跟海岸巡防機關雷情傳遞細部執行作業指導就是因為在沒有完全沒有按照這SOP來所以呢其實除了這個監偵系統有問題之外人為的這個疏失也很嚴重那我也看到海巡署這邊對相關的人員其實也有做出了一些懲處那之後呢我有看到"},{"start":6490.775,"end":6517.85,"text":"還清楚就是說未來在建置這個次世代雷達以前呢針對人員操作及後續通報等流程會先訂定雷達系統目標增或及延期功能操作指引我想請教這個部分目前我們到底有沒有在執行這個部分跟剛剛本席所提到的那兩個作業要點跟作業指導它們之間的內容的不一樣的點在哪裡"},{"start":6518.53,"end":6540.514,"text":"因為之前那兩個作業要點都沒有辦法來執行了那後續我們怎麼來操作這個雷達系統目標增貨及延續功能操作指引請問副主委我這邊特別跟委員報告那那個案子過以後我們在114年的6月17號有訂定一個雷達系統目標增貨跟延續功能操作指引"},{"start":6540.674,"end":6560.075,"text":"那這個指引除了提供給各單位依據小學特訓應用以外而且定期的針對重大案例跟請問為事樣態辦理專案的補訓那一直到今到今年的四月十號我們已經總共完成了七十二場次的這個講席還有我們四百九十七位的人做"},{"start":6561.136,"end":6587.609,"text":"這個教育訓練 另外為了要強化我們目標增後跟業階能力 那目前我們已經在國內防災認診的特別算裡面我們針對次世代的雷達 紅外線熱影像跟環繞直行監控系統然後而且這個計畫裡面導入AI的自動辨別功能減少人為的疏失那我想這個系統建置完在1146年全部完成以後可以大幅縮小這個小型目標創安的機率"},{"start":6588.729,"end":6609.158,"text":"而且可以對於小型目標增握是很有幫助的現在副主委講的其實是兩個部分一個部分其實就是關於這個AI智能我們未來的雷達設備會導入這個AI智能自動判讀這個設備的部分那另外提的就是人員訓練的這個部分可是這個訓練完之後會不會確實來做這個執行這個操作"},{"start":6612.68,"end":6634.665,"text":"我想這部分也是海巡署這邊要特別要去留意的部分因為我們之前就已經有所謂的作業指導相關的作業指導作業要點可是呢海巡的相關人員並沒有按照這個SOP來做執行來做操作尤其是這一個富士監看跟互相通報這個部分呢其實是在113年6月這個小船登陸的這個事件呢凸顯出來說這部分我們操作人員就是沒有確實來執行"},{"start":6641.147,"end":6666.96,"text":"所以我們如果訓練完之後如何去做監督如何要求這些操作人員一定要按照SOP來做處理那如果沒有的話應該是要做懲處尤其是這跟國土的安全有很大的關係我覺得這部分才是重要的我們除了訓練之外之後要求他們一定要確實來做執行我想這次海巡署就是要來未來就是要加強的這個部分"},{"start":6667.6,"end":6681.253,"text":"好那再來還有一點我想請教的就是說像我們現在也有設置紅外線熱影像跟智慧型暗記監控系統那之前我有看到就是說其實這部分的話其實我們還是需要高度的仰賴人員長時間的盯著這個海面來看"},{"start":6683.935,"end":6701.677,"text":"而且所以說我們這個還沒有完全做到充分的自動化那當然我今天在這報告裡面也提到說我們目前也在積極籌劃籌建紅外線影像系統跟環保智慧型這個暗記監控系統這跟先前我們的這個系統的差別在哪裡"},{"start":6703.625,"end":6719.056,"text":"我們次世代雷達跟環境熱影像以及環球資源監控那這個性能就比現有的性能高出非常多那另外一部分這個部分就全部都導入AI的整個判別然後可以自動辨別目標然後減少人為誤判"},{"start":6720.277,"end":6733.645,"text":"那這個部分特別跟委員報告那這個引進了相關的這些設備以後然後就可以減少剛剛我特別提到的部分就是減少任何的疏失然後可以自動判別然後另外一個部分就是預警的時間會提早"},{"start":6735.746,"end":6760.348,"text":"所以會比現階段我們現有的這個部分其實是會...就性能高度非常的高OK OK 了解那像過去的話我們海巡署也說在106年的時候我們盤點出有168處監偵的這個空隙可能目前我們已經有彌補109處那剩下呢剩下的59處的話我們現在是怎麼樣的處理方式畢竟這也是國安漏洞這個有辦法目前有補強嗎"},{"start":6761.617,"end":6791.037,"text":"跟委員報告我們這剩下來的這幾處我們就全部用我們現在的新採購的這些相關設備來做彌補那另外在還沒採購之前我們會用機動雷達車還有巡邏的部分還有相互左右邊的這個雷達互相覆蓋的方式以及劍環頂情務情務的調配的部分來彌補這個所謂的這個雷達盲區這個部分目前在這個針尖的方針尖的這個方式上面已經改善非常多"},{"start":6792.718,"end":6818.955,"text":"提到這個雷達盲區我們就會想到這個無人機像無人機的話它的機動性也比較高對於一些我們說地形有些地形的話它可能就是比較崎嶇的地方也許在雷達它可能沒有辦法監測到其實無人機它是一個很好的輔助工具可是我們所知道的就是說海巡署現役的這個無人機只有16架而且是地帶的那它續航力只有50分鐘"},{"start":6820.336,"end":6840.547,"text":"其實對現在的這個現行的監偵體系來講的話它的這個效應是有效的那我也了解像之前其實我們海巡署其實有要準備要來籌貨這個第二代的這個無人機可是因為廠商呢可能對某些系統是沒有辦法來做配合後來取消了這個契約那我在想請問海巡署這後續的這個無人機的籌貨我們有什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":6843.968,"end":6868.763,"text":"這邊跟委員包括其實我們很清楚應該是所有公共機關裡面第一個用無人機來執行侵入還有包括救生救難部分因為這個機器是在107年當時的環境背景下科技並沒有那麼先進現在的無人機其實它是非常先進的剛剛委員特別提到我們第二代的無人機我們在去年已經標出去了今年6月會交機"},{"start":6869.704,"end":6881.886,"text":"那這六架的無人機它的性能跟這個偵測範圍距離還有它的整個功能部分比現在強太多了所以這部分可以完全彌補這我們16架的不足"},{"start":6882.372,"end":6909.008,"text":"可以說明一下嗎這六架的性能跟這六架的那個滯空的時間可以長達十個小時可以長達十個小時十個小時滯空可以十個小時目前是六架那還沒有這是目前還在六月份會交機什麼時候六月份現在在做教育訓練OK好謝謝那當然這些設備一定要有"},{"start":6909.741,"end":6927.205,"text":"一定要有經費的支持一定要有這個預算的這個支持那剛剛我們張副主委剛剛提了很多就是說我們針對這些缺失我們會來做補強那可是我們所知道就是說114年度的總預算當中其中有3500萬涉及包含執法裝備籌補救生救難裝備的這個籌補那還有特勤武器籌補精進等預算呢其實都被在野黨凍結了"},{"start":6938.567,"end":6951.041,"text":"那115年的總預算呢到現在都還沒有付為審查那會不會影響到我們前面剛剛張副主委所提到的這些設備或者是裝備或者是這些科技這些勤奸證設備的一些補強這個會不會影響"},{"start":6954.164,"end":6979.559,"text":"我們115年總計的預算編列是294億那我剛剛講的這些科技增進設備裡面這個部分是在特別預算裡面已經通過了然後我們總共有284億那中間有一部分是做無人機紅外線跟雷達部分 台灣所以這個部分的增加我們的增收範圍跟增收能力的預算是不受影響的那另外在年度預算裡面當然有一部分會受一部分的影響"},{"start":6980.72,"end":6984.082,"text":"所以目前的話如果說總預算沒有過的話是會對這個裝備跟設備的補強其實是會有影響的那當然也就會影響到這個國土的安全那再來的話我有看到就是說像我們要汰換這個3G 4G M化偵查系統補強碼頭風化維安工程等等新計劃其實也是在我們的115年度的這個總預算裡面這些其實都會影響到"},{"start":7008.656,"end":7009.937,"text":"我們接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":7055.146,"end":7079.175,"text":"主席有請國安局局長跟國防部副部長請國安局長以及國防部副部長局長副部長兩位早安剛剛聽取了貴單位的報告我下面提出一些建議各位看這個圖表就是說"},{"start":7082.557,"end":7105.216,"text":"中共目前在进行的手法是武吓现阶段那实际上是采取灰色地带的行动这种采取灰色行动在国际情势上面来讲不管是邦交国非邦交国它基于它的利益着眼它通常是用这四个手法组合起来的这里面就包括了刚才您提到的"},{"start":7105.856,"end":7120.688,"text":"包括有媒體戰心理戰甚至法律戰那這種狀況下很容易導致國內在情勢上的一個判斷上的失焦因為有很多的錯誤訊息就像上次您提到的我們講deep fake這個"},{"start":7122.989,"end":7136.197,"text":"從開始叫做misinformation disinformation然後fake news最後組合起來變成一個deep fake那對國內的媒體的解說判斷形式上都是會產生很大的一個問題"},{"start":7137.523,"end":7160.272,"text":"那么至于他的具体行动灰色地带的行动本来就是一种消耗战就是说对你的民心士气对你的使用装备的妥善率因为你耗损很大两边的量值的数量上不对等所以说你要想用这个所谓的我们准备的不对称呢去抵消"},{"start":7161.272,"end":7180.083,"text":"站立的不对称用不对称站立抵消这中间我们解释要有调整的空间最主要我们要导入一个不对称的战略思维而不是用装备去对等说我可以offset你的所以这个图各位看一下就是说网络的活动实际的行动嚇阻外交信息作战"},{"start":7182.037,"end":7198.253,"text":"夾雜了剛才講的一個法律戰一個媒體戰一個心理戰這個東西對我們來講這是一個持續不斷的壓力跟挑戰那請看下一張圖這張圖就是說這個對國安跟國防部來講是需要涵蓋這個大幅度的"},{"start":7198.956,"end":7223.712,"text":"那么不只是涵盖台湾本身的防空识别区连周遭的比方讲东海大陆的东海防空识别区日本的防空识别区菲律宾跟我周遭相连的部分我们都要能够掌握到那上面这个图啊就是中共3月27到5月6号啊他讲的这个呃就是一个就是空中任务通告啊表示这个区域啊是受限的"},{"start":7224.272,"end":7249.489,"text":"那这个是早上今天8点40分的民航机的表示他虽然心理战划出这个区其实民航局的航线路径在上海飞航情报区的管制路线内并没有冲击对就上次我们提到过了那这个部分是因为国防部跟国安都在关注可是我们再看下面这张图这个就跟我们的这个"},{"start":7251.914,"end":7255.67,"text":"這個所謂的海巡署跟海軍就產生很大的壓力"},{"start":7256.758,"end":7284.246,"text":"这个是啊今天早上八点三十啊你你用啊用三个软体啊到四个软体用visual trackingmarine traffic啊那全部可以对应在领海基线以内十二里二十四里这中间呢所有黄色的是商船啊红色的是邮轮但是这里面有上百计的灰色的不管是在毛破的啊或者是在行动通通把AIS关掉"},{"start":7285.219,"end":7307.164,"text":"那因此对于我们海海巡的同仁来讲我们举例来讲刚刚提了虽然有很多的投资未来在海岸监控不管设有多少定点雷达站或者是机动雷达站再加上未来的红外线的侦测因为对于这种RCS非常小的目的"},{"start":7308.084,"end":7323.168,"text":"基本上傳統雷達就算先進雷達你的涵蓋範圍跟距離是很短的所以這個不能把它變成海巡署單一的責任那我建議是什麼做呢第一個你把台灣周遭所有的海岸線1200公里長度"},{"start":7325.049,"end":7352.055,"text":"去掉有些悬崖峭壁没有连外的你每20公里你把一个卫星照片把海滩连外道路配合road map全部套叠起来我们大概用50张图这个用国内的研究机制你不管是找学校合作或是大海局把你这个图做出来了海军海巡共同分讲也就是说你雷达站的位置配合你往后无人机可以涵盖的范围"},{"start":7353.669,"end":7375.703,"text":"现在无人机当然刚刚讲到了你的endurance持续力有多远续航力有多长最主要就是你传输的距离有多少那这个传输的频道通讯频道是要花钱的并不是free的所以买了装备以后维持费跟使用费你要帮他纳入他的年度作为费里面"},{"start":7376.403,"end":7406.043,"text":"那这种情况下来如果今天海巡跟海军因为海军涵盖的范围是比较大的它的雷达是征收中大型的目标的我们讲的小型跟微型是不同的你如果今天一个RCS只有0.1个meter square这不是我们海军传统的那你对空看的话它可能是逆中的可能是无人机的那对空跟海面的搜索又是不同雷达的规格所以这个部分就是海巡跟海军将来有大家共同合作努力的空间"},{"start":7406.663,"end":7420.339,"text":"最主要就是說基本上現在的我們電子海圖是內政部在出但實際上海圖的校正是大氣海洋局在做那做出來圖像海圖航圖經過校正套疊"},{"start":7421.62,"end":7445.155,"text":"這個時候他有一個不明目標出來的時候有沒有配合他的空中的飛機給他做導引這個未來我們在追蹤上面就是說他不只是工程的技術不只是我們的法規那這裡面還有說戰術思維的運用我們希望在這個未來將來跨域的單位第一個我們講的共同圖像並不是說開會的時候拿出來打的"},{"start":7446.021,"end":7464.562,"text":"我打比方来讲我们有很多地方的这个显示图像啊他并没有接入我们的每个地区的网络也就是说海巡是不是跟海军会立即通但是现在进步的是什么呢我如果今天我我现在有我有这个智慧型的手机那个眼镜啊我有两到三个"},{"start":7465.68,"end":7493.308,"text":"那么看到的雷达图像就进到手机然后用你的频道就传出去了而不是要你的装备的实体去网络因为执法并不是在暂时它成平时期它的压力就已经非常大了所以要不同的人在不同的location做监控这个时候可能人力的复合我们也建议未来给它提升那最主要就是共同图像从大区的战略图像到分区的小图像那"},{"start":7494.048,"end":7512.057,"text":"今天主要讲的是那个围形的目标那这个东西并不能用装备的规格来审视说一定抓得到所以这个责任是要分摊但是不要哪一个人摊那我把这个提出构想后面几个我把做一个流程给大家做参考就不要用太多的时间"},{"start":7513.413,"end":7535.225,"text":"像海巡署裝了這個寬頻的系統它有效支援範圍互通程度那麼速發部兩年前就是提升了將來警消對話的流程爭取這個閘道的在台建置能不能夠更高的頻寬流量利誘站這個都提供大家做參考"},{"start":7535.945,"end":7551.02,"text":"那速发部以前提供的就是低轨卫星我们现在能够用到什么程度这些通通都是我们在持续在努力精进的最后一个就是海上无人小型目标的监控这个部分我们提供国防部做一个参考"},{"start":7551.44,"end":7572.388,"text":"那我覺得這些細節不在這邊討論,我想聽一下局長跟副部長您的回應。好,跟委員大概提醒了有三個部分的重點。那第一部分就是針對中共對台灣的複合式威脅。那正如委員指出來的,它可能包括到的有軍事的恫嚇、經濟的脅迫、資安的侵擾、認知作戰的操作以及海上揮帶的侵擾。"},{"start":7573.328,"end":7593.76,"text":"那我想我們在日常每天都應對這些中共的複合式威脅那不能夠掉以輕心那很有可能這些複合式威脅也是未來中共要在台海新興續戰的一個前置的一個作業流程所以這部分我們國安情報機關這邊倒是有建立一個跨部會的情資整合的平台希望能夠掌握最新的海上的中共侵擾的動態"},{"start":7594.54,"end":7618.525,"text":"那第二部分是我有提到空域保留區的部分那確實像委員所提出來的我們在第一時間去查證就發現到他的那個空域保留區並沒有去重疊到相關的民航機的航線刻意避開那第二個我們跟民航單位確認也都不必再跟上海飛航情報局做任何的通報所以比較存在高的是一個政治上抱歉軍事上跟政治上的意涵"},{"start":7621.127,"end":7634.36,"text":"我們並不需要跟上海飛航局做通報我最主要是告訴你上海飛航情報區它的航線畫出來的圖我們需要有然後你去對應當時的飛行路徑一比較就可以了"},{"start":7635.041,"end":7655.5,"text":"他完全避開的完全避開好那第三點是委員有在提醒了怎麼樣來透過多元情資的整合來彙整相關的情資那並且有一個共同的一個圖台圖像的一個展現那事實上針對這個部分我本人在上個月也才到海巡署跟海巡署說一起主管來針對一些新的我們的一個"},{"start":7656.601,"end":7657.442,"text":"副部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":7672.964,"end":7694.132,"text":"是委員三點第一點您的這個powerpoint實在是我非常崇拜麻煩分享給我們我仔細閱讀跟學習一下第二點呢我非常贊成您所說的要跨單位的協助協同那現在我們海軍跟海巡署實際上已經在協同他們情志是分享這個問題不是這個問題問題是"},{"start":7697.216,"end":7711.275,"text":"兩個第一個就您所說的關於ISR的增資的能力要興建剛才海巡署也說了我們也說了我們都在建無人機也好或者是衛星也好那另外一個是"},{"start":7712.335,"end":7729.866,"text":"AI因為你去收了大量的圖資你如果沒有AI是根本人是盼不過來的所以AI是非常非常重要的那我們本部的AI目前是在特別預算的理念那最後一點就是這個未來我是希望"},{"start":7732.007,"end":7749.117,"text":"這個大家都具有AI能力以後彼此協助但是這裡我要跟委員報告我們國軍的徵收目標跟任務導向還是跟海巡不一樣所以可能到時候AI完了以後各自還是有各自徵收的對象以上"},{"start":7750.919,"end":7762.586,"text":"還有一個小問題請海巡署回答因為在您的報告中提到監控包括紅色海灘您的定義紅色海灘是什麼黃色海灘就是我們現在國防部定義的紅色海灘"},{"start":7763.892,"end":7785.826,"text":"那個不一樣紅色海灘是兩溪登陸正規的登陸但是現在都已經到迎擊以下了所以那個紅色海灘並不是你現在的重點我這邊提出個建議你最主要就是他滲透登陸滲透搶灘跟那個真正的兩溪正規的你看得到周波進行要登陸那個海灘那個倒不是您這邊的重點謝謝"},{"start":7791.991,"end":7821.452,"text":"好 接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請我們國安局蔡局長跟海委會的張副主委請國安局長以及海委會副主委好 謝謝主席 副主委早副主委早"},{"start":7823.45,"end":7849.728,"text":"近年來我們看到這個中共不論是在台海或是東海還是南海有透過這個船隻的騷擾周邊海域的一個灰色地帶襲擾的問題那我相信這我們許多委員都一直在關心那他們目前已經從這個零星的偶發事件逐漸轉變成為高度的這種組織化規模化的這種軍事行動那中共試圖在不觸發"},{"start":7851.376,"end":7869.548,"text":"這個軍事衝突的情況之下不斷的升級這個侵擾的行為來試探我們這個防衛的底線那對我們的這個國家安全所產生的威脅也逐漸的升高對此我想針對這個部分來這個中共的這個海上民兵的部分來和兩位做討論"},{"start":7870.689,"end":7895.554,"text":"那過去一段時間中共在這個東海南海展現出他們在海上動員能力的這個提升尤其今年年初這個紐約時報有一篇報導引起大家的注意根據這個內容中共在去年的這個聖誕節還有這個今年的一月分別動員了兩千艘的還有一千四百艘的這個漁船在東海排成巨型的陣列這個隊形長達數百公里"},{"start":7899.199,"end":7911.114,"text":"這不像是這個漁業活動的樣態更像是這個帶有軍事意圖的編隊行動目的可能就是要在演練的海上築成一道"},{"start":7911.673,"end":7931.46,"text":"具有阻擋效果的這種長程那使得對手在軍事介入的這種行動還有他後勤補給的路線上產生這個必要的障礙那中共發展這個海上民兵行之有年那甚至可能已經參與到對台這個軍演當中在另外的一份這個智庫的報"},{"start":7933.181,"end":7945.907,"text":"報告當中也看到去年這個中共海上民兵的活動數量創下最高的紀錄那顯示他們在發展的這個腳步似乎也沒有減緩的這個情形因此我想請教局長"},{"start":7947.366,"end":7974.421,"text":"我們估算目前中共的這個海上民兵的這個規模有多大那中共有能力動員的這個民兵還有他的船隻大概有多少這第一點那另外我們觀察他在這個平時任務的性質所採取的這個手段或是部署的這個安排頻率上有沒有什麼樣的一個轉變的異狀好 那就中共海上民兵的部分"},{"start":7976.513,"end":7995.371,"text":"他大概在沿海的11個省市都有海上民兵的編制那主要都是由中央軍委的國防動員部來進行相關的管理那平時由海警來進行指揮那暫時就移交給三大戰區包括北戰、東戰、南戰來進行暫時的指揮這大概他基本的運作機制"},{"start":7995.771,"end":8019.369,"text":"那在整個相關的活動樣態來講第一個當然就是進行相關海上的徵收那第二部分這海上徵收有時候連外艦通過台海我們都可以看到有中共的民兵漁船在周邊進行相關的一個勤制的收集那第二部分就是進行相關的灰色地帶的侵擾那有時候還進行所謂的假棋行動以及利用這些海上的民船"},{"start":8020.81,"end":8041.284,"text":"偽裝他的身份,甚至有時候來冒充所謂的三無漁船來進行各國海域的侵擾或是在爭議海域裡面來進行侵擾的活動那有時候還會甚至去破壞海底的電纜的這樣的一個違法的一個活動這大概是第二個樣態那第三個樣態是他們也會支應軍事上的一個演訓活動那委員剛好提出來確實沒有錯"},{"start":8042.245,"end":8061.6,"text":"在2024年的聯合歷艦跟2025年的海峽雷霆我們都有看到中共動員到民兵漁船的船隻來參與相關的軍事演訓的活動所以可能未來這種中共民兵漁船在這種支應戰訓上的一個活動會是我們後續觀察的重點"},{"start":8061.92,"end":8081.123,"text":"那這也是國際社會目前比較關注的焦點所以我們在國際情報交流合作也都有在分析這些民兵漁船運用的樣台來做比較在東海台海跟南海地區有沒有什麼共同性跟差異性好那我想我們國安局目前判斷中共的這個海上民兵他的體系"},{"start":8082.024,"end":8103.26,"text":"抱歉委員我打個岔因為剛剛忘了講數量數量部分大概有幾千艘那委員剛剛在圖上有提到東海調動數千艘漁船形成一個L型陣列那這個議題事實上在上個禮拜的業務報告機密會議當中我們有呃呈現國安局這方面的圖資跟分析那因為今天是公開會議就不適合做細部的討論"},{"start":8104.241,"end":8132.364,"text":"他的這個船隻數量應該還是會逐漸的在提升是應該 我們應該有掌握相關資料有 事實上我們相關跟海巡這邊列控的也都有幾千艘好 那另外我們國安局有沒有去判斷說目前中共的這個海上民兵他的體系是否已經成熟了那已經能夠隨時轉換為軍事資源的角色也可以配合海警海軍來執行相關的任務嗎"},{"start":8133.284,"end":8158.323,"text":"對,因為他的海上民兵已經變成是中共三合一的海上的兵力了指的是海軍、海警跟海上民兵那剛剛也跟委員報告過因為他的指揮體系裡面是由中央軍委的國防動員部來指導那平時又由海警來指揮那暫時交由各戰區來進行指揮那平時又透過這些戰訓活動來進行海軍、海警跟民兵漁船的相關的一個演練"},{"start":8158.823,"end":8177.002,"text":"所以它確實體系已經變得越來越完整我們剛才也討論到它的數量越來越多的情況之下它侵擾的可能不只是台海而是周邊的東海、南海海域也都變成是大家關注的焦點也對於區域的和平穩定造成一個很重大的危害我想現在這個中共的海上民兵也不再是單純的漁船"},{"start":8179.485,"end":8198.812,"text":"也配備有這個加固的船體還有這個也有可能有發射系統甚至還有這個北斗衛星還有通訊系統的這個專業船隻那倘若又配合使用這個隱藏匿跡的手段包括這個頻繁的關閉AIS系統或是更換這個呼號等等"},{"start":8199.572,"end":8223.355,"text":"這對於我們海巡在第一線這個監偵和辨識目標的工作上可能也會造成這個相當程度的負擔那這個部分我想請教副主委面對我們規模這麼龐大而且越來越專業化的這個海上民兵的船隻我們海巡目前在應處的裝備和對策上我們要如何來提升我們的反制能力"},{"start":8224.746,"end":8239.458,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告那對於中共的海上民兵船我們是全部有列管的那常態性在從112年到現在曾經出現過在台灣周邊水域的民運船大概有一百多艘那這些我們都有列管"},{"start":8239.958,"end":8269.435,"text":"那剛剛蔡局長特別提到那全部的這個中國大陸的海警船大概有數千艘之多那他是有能力來做從事於剛剛這個蔡局長特別提到的部分那另外對於這個在周邊海域活動的漁船我們平常就是對越界漁船我們有採取六大的手段包括驅離扣壓然後這個留置調查等等的這些措施那有效的控管相關在台灣周邊越界的漁船的"},{"start":8273.938,"end":8298.197,"text":"像我們的這個反制能力我想在夜間還有這個海象比較惡劣的情況之下我們有沒有比較這個高等級的一個反制作用這邊跟委員包括那其實我們雷達這也取決於雷達的徵收範圍另外我們艦船艇上面也有高規格的這些徵收設備那對於海上的目標只要是在徵收範圍裡面的我們是可以全部的管控"},{"start":8299.942,"end":8324.815,"text":"那因為他不是這個民船也不是這個軍艦在海上可能也會負責做干擾的動作不會主動的來做攻擊這對我們在這個交戰或執行的這個依據上會產生什麼樣的一個困難跟委員報告 目前還沒有發現主動攻擊我們漁船的這部分倒是海警船會登檢我們的漁船 這曾經發生過"},{"start":8326.107,"end":8344.376,"text":"登檢我們的漁船對 海警船那我們要怎麼反制那這個部分我們第一個時間是那平常說我們會通知漁船碰到海警船登檢的時候那拒絕他登檢然後趕快往台灣的方向開那第二個部分就是他會通知我們海警署那我們海警署在航的艦艇會趨權趕往去做介護"},{"start":8346.57,"end":8372.135,"text":"支援就對了是那對於這個海上民兵的這種提前預警他在這個出動前有沒有什麼樣的一個徵後或是前置作業能夠讓我們再快速精準的掌握他們的意圖那這部分是不是除了鄰近的這些有盟國家即時交換情資甚至我們再進一步主動公開偵測的數據和記錄給其他有盟國家一起來這個聯訪有沒有可能"},{"start":8373.879,"end":8387.265,"text":"其實我們跟有門國家 包括我們國內的勤職單位我們的消息是非常互通 非常通暢的所以這部分我們互相提醒另外有門部分會根據證書的範圍通知我們這邊來做適度的對應跟處理"},{"start":8392.453,"end":8409.198,"text":"從剛剛的討論我們可以看出中共對於海上民兵的發展已經逐步轉型為極具戰略意義的這種侵擾手段它在整體規模和組織化的程度以及和正規軍的協同能力都在不斷的提升當中"},{"start":8410.798,"end":8435.629,"text":"這不但會影響周邊海域的一個相關國家的安全態勢也對於我方不論在平時或是暫時的這種判斷執行執法上會帶來更多的這種壓力那面對這樣的這種挑戰我們除了要提升我們的自責硬體裝備更需要建立清楚一致的一個硬處原則才能在這個不升高衝突的這種前提之下有效來防"},{"start":8436.689,"end":8464.078,"text":"守住我們這個海上的安全和國家的利益那這部分我想還是請我們的國安局還有我們的這個我們張副主委這邊齁能夠和友盟的合作緊密的交換請知讓我們在相關單位能夠及時的應處的這種情況之下來降低海上的這個民兵所帶來對我們國家的安全的一種威脅是 好 謝威以上 謝謝"},{"start":8467.917,"end":8495.908,"text":"好謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝主席主席有請蔡明彥蔡局長請蔡局長好謝主席林委員好"},{"start":8502.023,"end":8518.478,"text":"我想有關於這個席政會的結束之後那麼這個中國方面的官媒新華社所發布的這個有關於十項對台十點剛剛前面其實有委員已經提到了不過我們來統整一下我昨天第一時間其實就跟媒體說了這個號稱大禮包其實是回鍋菜"},{"start":8522.561,"end":8549.67,"text":"很多的這個十項當中有九項其實都是舊的只是呢送給台灣他不開心就再要回去這是最沒誠意的送法沒有人送禮是說送回去之後我開心送你但我不開心不好意思還來那對於台灣民眾都看得非常清楚但是呢在上個禮拜的此時我們都還在討論我們的國防特別條例然後甚至於呢我們舉行了一場國民黨立委全部缺席的"},{"start":8550.81,"end":8565.88,"text":"朝野協商所以以至於延後到這個禮拜也就是禮拜四或禮拜五不一定 現在還不知道但是就要看國民黨要不要出席不過這個很擺明了所謂十項的交流策略其實就是過去我們一直在講的統戰手法"},{"start":8567.441,"end":8572.963,"text":"但是如果說我們細拆來看不論是自由行或是金馬四通或是農漁產輸出或者是更多的兩岸航班包括廈門航線這個東西根據兩岸人民關係條例其實都是必須要官方對官方來做協商所以這也是為什麼"},{"start":8587.588,"end":8604.665,"text":"在席政會結束之後美國的國務院第一時間就罕見的用說希望中國也應該跟台灣的民選政府來做交流而不是只選特定的對象那麼雖然這個是故技重施是這個回鍋菜"},{"start":8605.706,"end":8623.483,"text":"吃過的用過的甚至於送過的再送台灣一次但是國安局怎麼來看他們現在明顯用這個方式把一個設好的局但是要分化台灣社會國安局這裡有對其他的這些未來可能因應要面對的部會有給予什麼樣的建議嗎"},{"start":8625.644,"end":8645.956,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題,因為今天早上媒體朋友也在關心這個問題我們認為說每次到了選舉的時候,中共都會提出所謂的會台措施來像委員所提到的這些會台措施,包括是兩岸的觀光的交流或是農漁產品的採購大概在歷次台灣選舉之前都曾經被當成一個議題,來進行相關的操作"},{"start":8648.297,"end":8676.662,"text":"那特別早上我們在討論的時候也特別提醒到中共在進行操作過程當中也會有一種所謂的區隔對待那這些所謂的會台措施會特別撕毀給特定的縣市團體產業或是個人那所以我們是在呼籲說假如中共要推動相關的兩岸的交流或經貿往來的話可能還是要尋管道來跟政府來做相關的一個接觸那必須由政府來做相關的一個評估規劃跟推動才有可能來避免到"},{"start":8677.662,"end":8705.18,"text":"這種中共類似做這種區隔對待所產生的風險跟後遺症那所以這部分我們有做一些相關分析早上也跟王定委員在說明國安會這邊也有一個跨部會的機制所以我們這邊所看到的狀況都有做跟其他部會的分享所以可能委員注意到昨天在第一時間應該各個部會在下午一兩點大概陸陸續續都有一個完整的政策說明來讓民眾更了解中共對台這種借權跟統戰的手法"},{"start":8705.646,"end":8725.077,"text":"好對於夏寶包括經濟部第一時間就有講到有關於台灣跟中國方面其實他們的經濟往下走而且的經濟GDP等等跟台灣是有很大的差異的這種會台很可能都是口會實不至但是過去其實一直以來不是我們不交流而是"},{"start":8725.817,"end":8740.37,"text":"中共以選擇性的方式的所謂的以讀不回那這個部分事實上我相信民眾有些人知道有些人不知道而現在他已經丟出了這個直球我要問的是那如果包括"},{"start":8741.911,"end":8756.937,"text":"農產品的部分農委會的態度或者是有關於看放觀光交通部的態度甚至於說有關於自由行的部分在相關的部會是不是乾脆就直球對決就問他們說我們現在要談了你們什麼時候要來談因為過去其實不是我們不談嘛是他們對我們以讀不回嘛那我們現在要不要就直接直球對決直接就說好啊來談啊"},{"start":8768.981,"end":8791.344,"text":"各部會的立場我想我不適合預舉去幫他們做說明不過整體上剛剛在跟委員說明報告的重點是中共對台這種借選統戰操作的手法面對這樣的一個手法我們特別要警示的是它有點是只跟特定的政黨來釋放這樣的訊息而避開了兩岸既有官方的一些溝通的管道"},{"start":8791.644,"end":8814.132,"text":"那假如真的中方有意願來推動這些所謂的措施的話應該要尋管道來提出他們更具體的想法那否則初步來看很多的一個說法在之前提過之後又沒有實際的一些具體的跟政府的接觸的話那感覺上就有點口惠食不吃的好 所以崔本席也是希望啦透過這個國安局這邊包括今天的質詢啦我覺得這是一個好機會啦我們就是"},{"start":8816.994,"end":8823.116,"text":"球來就打 我們就直接接球也呼籲這個中國啊既然希望要交流 要溝通 要找對對象不要呢 這個就是只找特定的對象的時候然後又說我們不交流這個部分我認為其實我是覺得是一個好的直接來溝通的機會在對等的原則之下不要預設這個什麼非得要"},{"start":8842.181,"end":8866.506,"text":"台灣是中國的一部分在對等的情況底下我覺得這是一個交流的機會另外當然就是去年的10月15號的時候我也有質詢過就是有關於灰色侵擾那麼跟今天其實這個我們的主題是切合的那麼在去年質詢之後呢其實就沒有這個所謂的比較看得到的具體的就是說這個用橡皮艇啊或什麼來度"},{"start":8868.647,"end":8882.601,"text":"偷渡進來台灣那但是呢就像今天的報告所提出來的因為八月之後受到東北季風的影響當然就比較不利於像這種所謂小橡皮艇啊或什麼進入言下之意那就是三月到八月根據報告講的"},{"start":8883.482,"end":8889.567,"text":"就是一個再次有發生所謂小艇偷渡的狀況那也就是說從現在開始又會進入一個可能的高峰期或是可能的案例出現的狀況那麼對於從去年到現在因為我們的總預算被卡關的狀況底下那麼我們在國安單位跟海巡署當中有做了哪些加強的聯繫以防這個再有同樣的案例出現呢"},{"start":8911.966,"end":8939.075,"text":"我想今天大會這邊安排這樣的一個專題報告我覺得很及時因為接下來4月到8月本來就是這種小行艇侵擾的一個主要的告風季節那大概國安局這邊有兩個部分的工作推動跟委員做個報告第一個部分就是針對已經發生的這些侵擾的這些小船我們來釐清楚背後的一個可能的動機跟他的一個可能犯罪的一個手法所以國安局這邊我們是有發布一個非常明確的清詢的"},{"start":8940.596,"end":8964.674,"text":"詢問的一些題目讓我們一線的海巡單位的弟兄在抓到這些偷渡犯之後在進行清詢跟調查的時候那個是有一個問題的問卷的那我們可以逐一透過這些問題來釐清可能犯罪的動機那第二部分我們這邊有成立專案那在查查的部分是由高檢署來指揮我們相關的國安情報機關包括海巡署警政署縣指部還有移民署"},{"start":8965.074,"end":8989.26,"text":"那過程當中我們也會分享相關的一個情資而且我們這邊也預定各種偷渡案件的通報它有通報的要項不是隨便通報而是通報的要有哪些的重點要項那這樣子才可以達到我們橫向聯繫的一個目的那另外一個部分也跟委員說明報告的海巡署在今天的書面資料也提到他們後續有一些比較新的科技裝備或是監偵設備的建制"},{"start":8990.6,"end":9005.101,"text":"那這部分我上個月才到海巡署我們有做非常密切的一個討論怎麼樣運用比較新的科技或智能化的數據管理可以對於海上的動態能夠有更進一步的掌握那這部分我們來持續提升我們的量能"},{"start":9005.538,"end":9024.8,"text":"好 但是這個又要馬好不能讓馬兒不吃草我們都知道這個總預算當中其實是有部分是在這個所謂不能用原先的也是前一年度的來做執行的那這個部分不知道會不會有影響來剩下一點時間我是不是可以請海巡署主席我請海巡署"},{"start":9027.967,"end":9047.394,"text":"局長可以先請回好 那麼剛剛這個蔡局長有特別提到的那就是我們現在在一些設備跟技術跟科技上面希望做加強監測的部分那麼海巡署在這個部分這些器材是原有的嗎還是說其實必須是編列在新的項目裡面可以沿用舊的計畫的經費來做設備的更新嗎"},{"start":9050.966,"end":9079.938,"text":"除了我們原有的這個設備升級以外我們在特別預算裡面我們獲得預算然後未來我們會加強在新式的這個岸際雷達還有黃黃線這個影像以及環海諸位型監控部分來做處理那我想這個在116年之前會全部都建置完畢那就會變成一個完整的一個整個海域裡面的監控一個一個整個一個系統那我們會把這些相關的這些收整回來這些資訊會提供給國防部跟友情來做參考"},{"start":9080.725,"end":9099.015,"text":"好不好意思我再問仔細一點您剛提到的是特別預算是放在哪裡的特別預算已經通過上次的那個國防政經特別預算裡面是好那麼在新的年度在115年度的預算當中有放進來嗎還是就是直接放在特別預算當中"},{"start":9099.295,"end":9126.263,"text":"在特別預算那115年預算有一部分是延續性的預算那也是在政策範圍裡面好那麼所以說既然有預算了那我希望接下來從3月開始從上個月開始到8月中間這個報告也特別提到了會有這樣的狀況出現的時候我希望這些設備預算跟人力上面都能夠增強我們在海防上面避免灰色侵擾是是好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":9130.691,"end":9150.231,"text":"好待會王逸川委員質詢完畢以後我們休息五分鐘現在請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請陸委會副主委副主委"},{"start":9166.465,"end":9193.099,"text":"委員好副主委好我們就討論針對政協會陸委會在今天特別召開了一個記者會強調將採取必要作為守護中華民國守護台灣的自由民主那請問一下陸委會所謂的必要作為是什麼那政協會後有發現鄭主席有任何進行違法亂紀的事證嗎"},{"start":9196.701,"end":9223.237,"text":"你說明一下我們所說的必要作為其實是針對鄭主席那天他在正席會的時候所提出來的也就是說他要建立一個兩岸的和平框架要建立 要把這個兩岸和平的制度化然後讓這個成為一個不可逆的過程"},{"start":9225.165,"end":9248.698,"text":"那這些訴求在政府方面看來它很可能已經觸及到我們兩岸關係條例的一些規定也就是說如果沒有政府授權的話任何機關團體不得和對岸涉及政治性內容的合作行為"},{"start":9250.037,"end":9276.697,"text":"然後如果沒有政府授權的話也不得簽署涉及公權力或者和政治議題有關的協議那因為我們並不確定鄭主席他講這些話到底只是單方的意願表達還是實質上會有一些什麼作為所以我們這天在新聞稿裡面講的是如果"},{"start":9282.015,"end":9287.502,"text":"這個國民黨方面他觸及到兩岸關係條例的一些"},{"start":9289.407,"end":9311.867,"text":"淨地的話所以政府就會採取必要的措施但是目前看起來目前看起來鄭主席講的抱歉我先打斷你的話我想是你們陸委會先劃靶再來設建的那我想今天我們講一個很實際的畫面我們兩岸是不是要和平當然要和平"},{"start":9312.407,"end":9335.083,"text":"我們不要跟以色列跟烏克蘭一樣的一個角色台灣是需要什麼是一個共榮共和共平和平的一個制度裡面來生活下去的我們不挑釁也不挑戰那當然我們也希望對岸對我們台灣也是一個善意和平共"},{"start":9335.785,"end":9357.723,"text":"共處的一個兩國之間的一個相處所以本席看到民進黨在政府對於維護兩岸的和平毫無進步毫無作為但又見不得其他人促進兩岸和平只好對台灣人民進行了任職作戰那用暗示的方式"},{"start":9358.484,"end":9384.218,"text":"抹紅扣帽子這麼多年來始終拿不出國民黨賣台的證據倒是民進黨的核心出了不少的共諜上次我們在這個地方也提出很多共諜案的民進黨的這一些黨員所以副主委根據陸委會的新聞稿國共兩黨主席會面將兩岸的關係國共化一中框架化"},{"start":9384.818,"end":9406.87,"text":"那請問一下ECFA是不是在一中政治前提下談的你來回答我這個問題ECFA就是兩岸之間的關於經貿方面的協議在我方的認知ECFA的談判跟一中立場或九二共識是沒有關係的但是在中共他現在是咬定說跟在九二共識下才有既然我現在要講一句話"},{"start":9414.514,"end":9434.6,"text":"第二陸委會應該在政治歷史當年兩岸如果沒有共同的政治基礎根本就不可能簽署ECFA那這個政治基礎在大陸叫做一中原則在台灣是叫做一中各表這就是一個政治基礎這也是政治的前提啊"},{"start":9435.16,"end":9459.858,"text":"那陸委會是不是認為只要在大陸認為一中架構下兩岸互動就是將兩岸關係一中化如果這樣的話是不是只要涉及中共領導人的會面就構成國共化與一中化就按照陸委會的邏輯民進黨從蔡英文到賴清德持續適用的F法"},{"start":9460.578,"end":9487.572,"text":"是否也是在延續一中的框架那現在的事實就是民進黨執政在在野黨的兩套標準一邊罵一邊享受既然X法可以在一中正直的前提下被視為禁貿那為何民間與政黨交流就一定被定為一中框架內會要不要建議總統和行政院就立即的終止X法"},{"start":9488.132,"end":9516.408,"text":"不管陸委會打不打算建議即將終止ECFAECFA在民進黨執政那已延續了十年了代表民進黨政府默認該框架在特定情況下可享受這樣的一個邏輯和民進黨對國人的認知作戰模式民進黨就是台灣最大的賣台的一個集團所以你要解釋ECFA"},{"start":9517.77,"end":9522.64,"text":"是經貿的框架還是在意中的框架下你來回答我這個問題"},{"start":9523.905,"end":9548.572,"text":"在我們政府認為ECFA當初是純粹談經貿議題但是中共的解釋是說是我們在一中的框架之下所以我們才給你ECFA才給你什麼34項農產品的免關稅等等然後只要你一偏離我就立刻把你取消所以剛剛委員講的都是對方的立場這個和台灣的立場是不同的"},{"start":9548.592,"end":9565.408,"text":"但是你們在賴政府在英文跟賴政府已經延續了十年啊到至今都在延續十年啊如果這樣的話如果這個剛剛你所說明的那你就宣布嘛終止ECFA"},{"start":9566.67,"end":9585.445,"text":"忠實ECFA進行我們現在的ECFA的會議委員我跟您報告在我們看起來ECFA跟一中框架一中前提是沒有關係的所以我們沒有必要去宣布什麼廢止但是他們認為這是很有關係的他們認為這是前提所以他們常常找麻煩"},{"start":9590.689,"end":9599.883,"text":"好不好 不要再說謊了不要再 不要再對進行人民認知作善不要再說謊好不好 請回那有請國安局"},{"start":9608.171,"end":9629.731,"text":"好 謝主席 歡迎回頭好 主席好 本席注意到國安局近年來向中共的政經情勢原判都指出中共正面臨國內外壓力政治風險上升的一個狀況以官民矛盾不斷的一個加劇那所以我們都知道一個極權政權"},{"start":9631.753,"end":9644.187,"text":"最主要的工作之一就是依賴高經濟發展的維持掙錢的一個合法性在國安局看來中共似乎浮現治理的一個危機那局長認為對我們這個是正面的訊息還是一個機會"},{"start":9650.846,"end":9663.697,"text":"跟委員做個說明跟報告確實委員引用的數據我們在上個禮拜的業務報告有特別去提醒中國大陸目前正面臨到一些治理的風險不管是在政治面進行一些黨政要員的調查、訴談"},{"start":9665.879,"end":9693.002,"text":"或是在社會面那民眾因為經濟的下滑而有一些對現狀的不滿以及在經濟的數據面即使中共的經濟數據它經過美化但是我們收整各方面的資料跟評估可以發現到它現在經濟動能真的是在弱化包括國內的消費力還有外資的投資的狀況確實是處在比較低檔的狀況那就國安局的角度那我們覺得應該在跟貴院的義務報告當中把這樣的一個趨勢做一個呈現那也做一個警示"},{"start":9693.854,"end":9717.62,"text":"所以本心認為在其實中共面臨的內外的壓力對台灣而言反而是更危險國際政治上有一個非常典型的一個理論那叫做轉移性的一個衝突那意思是當一個國家政府或領導人面臨嚴重的國內的困境的話那政權穩定受到威脅的時候他們可能會"},{"start":9718.48,"end":9735.312,"text":"故意挑起或升起其他國家的外部的一個衝擊所以以轉移國內民眾的注意力並製造這個團結的效應所以這是一個政治的求生的策略那最近中共經濟的這個"},{"start":9738.257,"end":9762.234,"text":"在近年來的一個經濟的下行下滑房地產與地方債權的問題嚴重外部又面臨美中競爭和科技封鎖的壓力這種情況中共反而更可能強化民族主義動員換句話說台灣的風險是不是下降是不是不穩定性的一個既然都會上升"},{"start":9763.368,"end":9790.618,"text":"對 謝委員剛剛的一個分析跟提醒那確實我們在注意中共的內部風險我們比較關注的也是這些議題會不會外溢到對台海安全有產生一些影響跟衝擊那尤其中共在歷史上也確實曾經在內部發生政治經濟社會不穩定的時候對外用兵這包括到有1969年的中俄邊界衝突就是在文革之後那1979年的中越邊界衝突又是在四個電現代化失敗之後"},{"start":9791.078,"end":9820.197,"text":"所以對於他現在內部的這種情勢那會不會有委員所提到的民族主義的操作我們會持續的注意那也是在上禮拜報告的時候我們特別去注意到中共的軍文關係因為這一次的大批的整肅涉及到很多上將33個員額現在只有4位上將在位那這樣子的一個軍文關係會不會有台海安全的意涵包括有些年輕的將領會不會為了要表示效忠而有在台海的相關演訓活動有更冒進的作為那這部分我們再持續的來關注"},{"start":9821.098,"end":9838.722,"text":"好,在最後請問一下局長,國安局有沒有設定具體的一個風險的一個標準型,例如當中共經濟壓力到達什麼樣的一個程度,它會採取什麼樣的一個程度,在對軍事的行動,有沒有?"},{"start":9838.942,"end":9868.282,"text":"有 這個部分我們確實有一個還蠻複雜的一個風險評估指標那不只是中共內部的政治經濟社會的形態還有包括它的對外關係以及它涉台政策的相關的一個動向還有各種的軍事活動以及在台海的複合式威脅的侵擾那我們有一個加總的一個分析的一個指標那來當成我們的一個風險判斷的模型那這部分假如委員有興趣對我們私下再跟委員做一些細部的說明好 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9870.383,"end":9893.511,"text":"謝謝黃榮委員的發言請喝口水下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請官局局長還有內政部 國防部副部長還有內政部還有會副部長"},{"start":9901.145,"end":9910.61,"text":"就今天的議題不過剛剛其實有委員關切到所以我們也希望可以在這裡提一下因為台灣去年2025年跟大陸的貿易順差是1471億美元也就是說一年從大陸賺取4兆7千萬台幣"},{"start":9919.636,"end":9924.18,"text":"這對台灣有很多的產業來說其實是非常有利的這樣子的一個生意所以在這個部分因為我們看到現在台灣面臨有一些困難比如說像現在美國對世界各國的關稅那我們談的結果是非常差的"},{"start":9944.739,"end":9948.602,"text":"包括像我們原來說我們的藥品其實是可以跟大家一樣可能是在關稅上是比較低可是後來才發現原來我們是百分之百還有我們放寬了非常多的規則不管是可能來租農業的很多其他的殘留標準或者我們自己國內本來自主性很強的現在都被彈成沒有辦法由我們自我主導"},{"start":9974.879,"end":9979.18,"text":"那另外還有我們每年編列高爾的預算想要加入CPTPP或者甚至我們甚至沒有參加WTO等等我們現在的困境其實是非常多那如果離我們最近而且我們每年可以從大陸賺取四兆七千萬的這樣子的一個錢我想對我們所有的很多產業來說其實是非常重要的所以我們希望就"},{"start":10003.504,"end":10021.774,"text":"整個大家的政府的考量也好或者我們人民的立場下去考量也好我們應該要怎麼樣去找到一個平衡點這個可能是政府應該要負的責任可是今天如果有其他的單位因為像我們跟其他國家不管日本也好或者其他國家也好我們很多"},{"start":10022.914,"end":10029.219,"text":"也會透過NGO團體也有很多透過民間的合作社像農業產業其實甚至都是民間自主性的就可以做這些相關的交流所以如果為了人民的生活好然後我們可以有更好的一個互相的交流而且可以維持我們雙方的穩定我想這都是大家要努力的目標不要把政治放得太高所以這是我們今天要特別提出來的那"},{"start":10050.793,"end":10055.378,"text":"今天其實我們主要要探討的是近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國臨海之徵收漏洞檢討還有科技監偵設備它建制的進度跟精進作為我們其實主要是從過去好幾年前從台中它就不只發生一起它從台中上岸結果人家是自己去自首的或者有些是人家檢舉"},{"start":10075.276,"end":10078.879,"text":"在前年113年6月的時候在台北淡水河口也同樣發生這樣的事情那最近在3月台南的鹿耳門又發生有這樣小型船隻可以登陸的這樣子一個狀況這個不明小艇搶探台灣海岸線這個都已經不是首招所以我們才認為說這個對我們的國安會不會造成影響局長您怎麼看有這麼多這些小艇它可以如入無人之境"},{"start":10104.459,"end":10125.025,"text":"現在像三越這個它也是 本來說是漂流物那個很大耶而且它是在我們的雷達站旁邊這個雷達站還不是無人的這是有人的雷達站那居然在旁邊就可以看到這一艘船那這也不是一般的那種橡皮艇小艇耶看起來它就是船所以這怎麼會我們"},{"start":10126.906,"end":10147.467,"text":"完全沒有辦法去掌握這個部分局長就這個部分對我們國安相關的這個有沒有影響跟委員做個說明啦就我剛才在講說謝委員會在這個時間點安排這樣的一個專題報告因為接下來真的是可能中共偷渡的高峰期這大概是第一點那第二點是我們對於這些偷渡案"},{"start":10148.007,"end":10168.992,"text":"就官的角度來講他確實有凸顯到我們海防安全上有一些不足的地方那也必須要有一些更具體的測定作為那所以就官局的角度來講我們大概有分兩個部分一個部分是舊案的釐清跟盤點我剛才在跟其他委員說明舊案發生之後怎麼釐清他的動機以及他偷渡的一個軌跡跟方法"},{"start":10169.212,"end":10195.02,"text":"那怎麼樣透過數位還原以及清詢過程當中來弄清楚那第二部分就是新案的預防那怎麼樣防止再有不斷類似的新案的發生所以這部分我們也跟海巡署有在做一些必要的提醒畢竟海域安全主要還是需要海巡海岸巡防單位能夠有更好的設備跟人力的編制那這個部分我們有做一些提醒那海巡在剛剛的業務報告當中也做了他們一些相關的測驗作為"},{"start":10197.062,"end":10201.524,"text":"我們完全看不到它的策進作為而且我剛剛提到是好幾年前就已經開始發生而且它是不斷的發生顯然我們到現在還沒有辦法抓住而且越來越嚴重為什麼我們今天要特別講到這個部分因為剛剛局長提到的那個部分我們有聽到可是我們現在要探討的是台灣的海岸警衛既然"},{"start":10218.331,"end":10234.413,"text":"在冬天的時候其實我們的風力太強大像這種小型的船隻其實是不容易在海上在這邊可以在這邊航行所以其實它也是很有限的時間點如果在這麼有限的時間點我們都還沒有辦法好好的把它"},{"start":10235.094,"end":10247.96,"text":"防衛做好那我們過去我們今天看到的報告內容各個單位都只是要錢而且還一直說我們的特別預算可能需要這些錢或者我們的總預算需要這些錢我們來回顧看看我們現在到底為了這些我們花了多少錢台灣的海岸警衛到底是誰負責的我們現在看到今天的報告裡面內政部說我們負責查緝"},{"start":10261.227,"end":10290.709,"text":"然後海巡署說我們負責海上國防部說那是灰色地帶所以結果就是這個相關的責任一分為三可是我們看到他風險持續都是存在而且一而再再而三的不斷的在發生內政部的報告裡面是寫說他們大概是抓抓人要靠民眾檢舉啊巡邏來臨檢而且偷渡犯每天會電話而且三天要報到我們要問的是道路小型船隻他進入他"},{"start":10291.249,"end":10312.755,"text":"既然是國安問題因為剛剛局長的報告裡面還有你的說明裡面其實也有提到就是說其實國安局明確的指出小型船艇它不易被雷打去爭貨那另外就是海岸線它存在查查的盲區還有就是可以利用地形直接靠岸那其實我們已經都知道這些相關的狀況我們看看這幾年"},{"start":10316.537,"end":10326.728,"text":"剛剛提到的就是我們在看到那個內政部他提的那個報告裡面那像這些你說都是靠這個臨檢報到電話聯繫這個看起來今天寫的報告這是治安處理人口管理"},{"start":10333.675,"end":10351.709,"text":"根本不是防止滲透所以內政部他如果這個是國安問題他怎麼可以拿這樣的內容來外交國防委員會來做這樣的報告這一份報告從頭到尾都沒有提到即使偵測能力系統攔截能力或者任何科學數據"},{"start":10353.03,"end":10367.623,"text":"所謂的科技兼徵到底在哪裡內政部花了很多錢之前還包括我們去年通過的防衛陣性的預算裡面當時要錢的時候也說因為有很多這種小艇的這些可能會有這樣清早的一個舉動所以我們也編了很多錢那更遑論之前還買過無人機雖然無人機到最後說我們出海以後不能飛因為風太強"},{"start":10380.794,"end":10385.928,"text":"那你還後來又編了更多的錢還買所以就內政部的時候有這樣的狀況對不對"},{"start":10390.611,"end":10405.862,"text":"簡單說明就好跟委員報告內政部基本上我們基本上是負責治安的行為那治安查查行為當然也負責包括國安的後續的偵查跟調查所以我們其實不是只有單純的就是海上我想要在這裡先提醒一個市長不用再上來因為時間的關係"},{"start":10411.726,"end":10440.321,"text":"內政部負責國土防衛當你要預算的時候你告訴我們說這些相關的防衛內政部都有權責所以你要了很多的預算我們今天要討論的就是這個部分所以我們就這些相關的國土防衛你去做一些檢討我們看不到今天的報告裡面我剛剛提到的你花的預算你沒有提到偵測能力攔截能力跟任何的科學數據這是針對內政部說的接下來請教海巡署"},{"start":10441.664,"end":10463.198,"text":"海巡署在我們今天的報告資料裡面有說有311個人這個大部分是海上攔截抓到的還是進來以後才被抓的311個人是內政部的統計那我們海巡署的統計就是針對海上偷渡進來的時候我們從112年到現在是208個人其中入籍的有47個人"},{"start":10470.023,"end":10498.958,"text":"有47個人我剛剛的問題因為內政部也提到了嘛這是你們的記錄所以相關的一些作為其實你們也都是有連帶關係的可是我現在的請教的問題是說他是進來以後才被抓還是在海上攔截的時候抓到的不管你是200多個還是300多個有一部分是在海上抓的一部分是在陸上抓的那大部分都是在離島地區抓的"},{"start":10499.858,"end":10525.458,"text":"離島 所謂離島是金門 馬祖跟澎湖所以其實也都是上岸以後才抓到的沒有 有的是在海上查因為我們的雷達針說不上因為金馬的地區的重症很短那進來以後就等於快靠岸了所以我們在岸邊等他就直接逮捕或者是用巡防艇去直接逮捕所以就今天我們看到的部分因為你之前在台北淡水河口已經發生過相關的事情台中也發生過那這一次在鹿耳門"},{"start":10526.298,"end":10529.58,"text":"發生這個小艇 而且你們剛開始還說這是漂流物那麼大的一個漂流物看起來就是船你會把它當成漂流物 後來才發現是通緝犯去搭乘的所以其實這個部分我們要討論的是台灣的海岸線有多少比例即使是可以偵測的我們通篇都沒有看到我們檢討雷打覆蓋率"},{"start":10549.494,"end":10553.196,"text":"夜間監控能力小型船隻辨識率沒有數字就沒有能力因為我們看到它不斷的發生你們已經要過很多錢你們之前像在很多的那個無人機監控預算就有數十億相關的單位還包括內政部還有岸際監控系統也花大錢去擴建反無人機系統的分級還有AI辨識失效"},{"start":10577.068,"end":10604.144,"text":"其實還要人工double check其實現在最近發生的事情我們花了很多錢可是它不斷的造成這樣的一個狀況小艇還是船隻還是直接進到我們的所有的海岸上面這邊跟委員說明其實我們現在就是因為前面發生這麼多案子那在雷達因為它有物理限制所以我們在偵查上面本來就有它的侷限那為了改善這些所以我們有在特別預算裡面有編列了"},{"start":10605.724,"end":10623.473,"text":"284億那中間有一大部分的是在做聯合情增針的這個部分那同時也防堵這個小型目標來進到我們國內來那我們現在正在做但是這案子還在進行當中還沒做完整那我相信我們整個做完成以後這個問題就會大幅改善"},{"start":10623.993,"end":10629.539,"text":"大幅改善是是您說的喔是因為其實在淡水河口事件以後不要說特別預算來你們之前已經編了預算那時候在預算上面你們也花了錢強調要補強包括安靜監控系統無人機的監偵還有科技徵收設備還有紅外線熱像椅這在之前的預算就有不是在去年的這個特別預算"},{"start":10647.757,"end":10672.833,"text":"國土防衛徵信裡面因為這是涵蓋預的問題所以我們在特別預算特別把整個剛剛那個委員提示的部分有缺漏部分那盲區的部分我們這次全部把它補齊全部都會把它補齊所以其實以後就不會再發生像這樣子的一個小型船隻可以進到我們的國土上面領土上面然後可以如入無人之境就不會發生這樣的事情我不敢跟委員保證百分之百但是會降到最低"},{"start":10677.276,"end":10700.949,"text":"什麼叫降到最低機率降到最低所謂的機率是怎麼樣因為如果這個都還是有人抓到的同樣都是小型船隻而且都是低可偵測的目標而且他還是可以持續靠岸如果到現在你們說花了這麼多的錢數十億甚至百億而且還有聯合勤監偵國防部也在這裡因為國防部的雷達我們說他沒有辦法偵測"},{"start":10701.869,"end":10706.674,"text":"小型的目標物所以我們還花了錢去建置像熱像椅紅外線等等那如現在還加上AI的辨識如果還有無人機你們花了這麼多錢告訴大家我們需要更多更多的錢然後如果他只是降低到現在你也不敢說可以有多好的效果"},{"start":10721.331,"end":10733.041,"text":"我覺得這個可能還是大家後續要探討的今天我們主要要談的是就這個部分因為我們看到的是你在這個部分內政部他負責的是人進來之後然後海巡署他是負責海上巡邏或者海岸的部分那國防部他負責戰爭以後才介入因為在灰色襲擾嘛你如果敵人在"},{"start":10745.572,"end":10754.014,"text":"所以我們看到是可嫌疑的像這樣子的一個對象其實他在進入之前是好像沒有辦法可以管跟我們報告那個全世界每個國家可以全部百分之百防堵偷退我們沒有說要百分之百可是當你們一直持續在發聲的時候而且也是非常離譜我剛剛提到的是你這個是有人的雷達站的旁邊他就已經上來了"},{"start":10772.458,"end":10775.879,"text":"然後你剛開始還是告訴大家說這是漂流物所以顯然這資訊的掌握或者你們整體的掌握你今天不是在盲區今天是在你的雷達站旁邊而且你的錢已經花了預算已經用了可是還是沒有達到這樣的目的然後你們還跟大家說我們還要更多的錢"},{"start":10791.943,"end":10816.616,"text":"因為我們不知道多少錢才夠我們沒有要求百分之百可是你不斷的台灣才多大人家很多其他的國家它的海岸線這麼長它的國土面積這麼大人家還是有做到你今天如果跟我們要了那麼多的錢而且還說特別預算的錢要過總預算的錢要過那你又沒有辦法把它做好那怎麼有辦法對我們人民交代這也是我們的職責剛剛瑋瑜講的那個雷達旁邊那個就是雷達的盲區"},{"start":10820.638,"end":10823.06,"text":"那個地面板就是雷達的盲區你有人對不對我們有人但是人在盲區我們發現時間很短雷達的盲區你今天人在那裡然後你都看不到他不是很小你看看照片上面的這個我們所謂的盲區今天如果你在偷渡飯可以上來或者我們可以這樣子都沒有發現到人"},{"start":10844.639,"end":10849.081,"text":"你會說它是漂流物表示你們剛開始是沒有發現到人所以你們用這樣子的一個方式去處置這一個事件那後來才發現有人我們今天跟你討論的不是這個部分而也盲區的部分我們也很清楚的知道可是我們希望你們就這個部分其實不是只要錢因為你們已經花了很多的錢我們要的是它的效果如果你不斷的在重複的發生像你們之前買的那個無人機其實"},{"start":10874.452,"end":10887.485,"text":"包括有一些你說跟美國合作到最後是拉脫維亞的像這樣子然後事情還是不斷的發生可是你買的都是同一家同一個品牌那到底是人的問題還是你的採購的問題這個部分還有時間的關係提供一些相關的書面資料"},{"start":10894.372,"end":10897.074,"text":"怎麼樣有精進的作為因為我們今天看不到大家提到的這個部分我們要的是大家可以怎麼樣去精進改善然後我們的錢應該要花在什麼樣的地方這個才是我們今天探討的重點而不是你說我們需要更多的錢"},{"start":10910.205,"end":10927.723,"text":"然後我們可以做到以後會什麼樣的結果不知道這不是我們今天要討論的一個重點所以就這些部分我們希望可以特別提出來那國安單位既然災傷相關的這些我們可能應注意而未注意或者我們做的不夠好的部分應該從哪裡去強化我們也請國安單位可以去深入的"},{"start":10931.887,"end":10955.241,"text":"再去探討然後再去做一些修正那剛剛其實也有委員提到利用一點點時間有在講水雷的部分與其要因為我們自己也沒有經驗就水雷的部分到底它多智慧我們不曉得因為都是自己講的而且都是實驗數據如果我們的防空飛彈"},{"start":10956.482,"end":10985.705,"text":"可以做實戰的一些驗證反而這個可能比較有效不要在媒體啊或者這些內宣外宣說我們的防空飛彈做得有多強多強甚至有洩密的這樣的疑慮可是他並沒有實戰的一些相關的驗證資料也不是不要說只要錢這個部分我相信副部長應該聽得懂我們講的內容還有國安局我們就這個部分希望也可以提供一些相關的建議"},{"start":10988.687,"end":11014.328,"text":"好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員的質詢各位首長請先回座喝口水下一位我們請王逸川委員質詢好我們請國安局海巡署跟內政部謝謝請國安局海巡署和內政部謝謝"},{"start":11017.884,"end":11042.681,"text":"好 謝謝主席 王委員好好 局長請問一下我們今天這個題目啊這些小艇你判斷會越來越多 還越來越少我們不排除它還會再發生啦這也是為什麼我們一直在跟海巡在討論怎麼樣來提升我們的一些應處的一些措施好 那我接著請教海巡署啊你如果看到這些船啊 這些小艇啊你看到後一步是什麼看到它之後"},{"start":11046.343,"end":11068.985,"text":"看到這小艇在跑的時候,你們的下一步是什麼?我們雷達偵測到以後,我們會去做必要的識別然後我們派遣情務,然後線上艇就直接去攔查然後在岸基部分,如果攔查...你是把他抓走,還是把他抓?抓,因為我們要去辨識啊因為我不曉得這小艇到底是我們自己的漁船,還是對方的漁船抓到了嗎?"},{"start":11070.171,"end":11097.551,"text":"抓到以後就按照程序來做處理 扣押然後扣押 留置調查那交給內進部我們現在的是要辨別你是非法入侵的漁船部我們就按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理你那個魚如果是什麼 不管偷渡什麼 你如果抓到就都交給內進部嘛我們現在按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理如果是漁民部分是我們做留置調查那如果是偷渡的部分當然是回歸到留置調查要讓他們吃便當嗎要"},{"start":11101.328,"end":11123.503,"text":"他就不許來跟你吃便當就好了我們調查了一段時間啦,就是留置調查,然後畢竟要做裁判你怎麼不把他關照就好因為他違法,不是國內的法律,當然要逮捕,因為他是違法行為啊啊怎麼會呢,逮捕之後啦逮捕之後就留置調查,然後...不然之後現在報告裡面,不想說不然之後他們都要投奔自由的嚮往台灣民主的"},{"start":11125.366,"end":11150.874,"text":"這是他的說法,但是我們會根據他的這就是中國人不吃小孩啦,一群臭小孩啦抓到就說要逃犯自由,不吃小孩啦抓到就說我們是來騷擾的啦,我們就要你測試的啦抓到就多乖乖的,必求,沒有啦,我們是要逃犯自由,臭小孩啊這種就要處理啊,每天在火神坊大人會人會,你們在海巡署會皮皮板面"},{"start":11152.298,"end":11163.284,"text":"這樣會不會通因為我們是按照相關的法律來做然後這一部分只要是偷渡不過我們是依給地檢處去做後續的調查後續的偵辦不是啊 他不是偷渡他就是來亂的啦"},{"start":11167.413,"end":11179.696,"text":"我們國內有完整的法治啊,我們就按照法律來處理它他們一直在亂,一天來給你一天去十台來亂他們來十台,我照理啊,我照法律啊你們的戰力就整個都耗損一下對不對我們海巡網這個能力只要發現有能力來做處理,沒問題沒問題,來國安局,你跟海巡署沒問題"},{"start":11193.722,"end":11205.546,"text":"委員比較擔心的是會有這種大規模啦 而且品質很高的一個簽名沒有大規模啦 他就直接把你攬下去 把你攬下去啦 你就每天都在批本命啦 啊如果早期吃一排就都要臭皮啦早期吃一排就說 好 我要登陸了啦 中華民國的台灣的海巡有夠弱的啦 我們剩下錢來開一排啦 怎麼樣"},{"start":11216.866,"end":11239.377,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們要建立一些跨部會的聯訪跟通報的機制我們也是從很多的案例當中做一些改善知道他在那裡嘛 去找到他啊找他之後再開扁東西這樣會不會通不過就海防的立場來講當然是只要有這種違法的行為真的就是要逮捕啦那依照我們的法律來進行審判那他還必須要在這邊服刑所以如果上一大堆來服刑"},{"start":11244.719,"end":11267.358,"text":"對啊,依照法律我們就是要處理啊,你不能夠做事不管阿姨,我們就一直給他服刑就對了你一天兩天一百個,你就一百個都給他服刑就對了對,以目前來講要依照法律阿姨,這種的身份很假啊對,但還有一個可能是拉長我們的警戒的範圍啦那盡量不要讓他... 阿這你來注意啦對啊,這我們來注意因為他以前就比較大隻的,你雷達找到的,現在衝這種的"},{"start":11271.158,"end":11278.66,"text":"都會耗損我們,有時候他幫你做一些認知作戰,我們就要看他,我們就要對他淋水,好,這樣失敗整個台灣人說,愛純就這樣失敗,這樣都沒發現對我們的海巡署,這個威信應用算很大,對我們的國安的應用也很大民眾會覺得說,這愛純到底是在說什麼,愛純要開一百,開一百我們都不知道,那一百到裡面還要炒大"},{"start":11301.002,"end":11326.421,"text":"國安局我覺得這個柯林您要特別注意因為這種的喔對他們來說興奮吃雞啦對啦他們人也不用興奮啊 人那麼多人不用興奮再來捏便當還可以臭皮對 假如後續海巡的這一方面的徵收技術能量有提升的話啦那可能是盡量不要讓他進階到我們的岸際啦那這個接下來會在我們的相關的演習有這一條嘛"},{"start":11327.819,"end":11331.469,"text":"會 揮袋的清掃本來就是我們關注的一個重點我現在說的小庭接下來會有這種演習"},{"start":11335.563,"end":11346.906,"text":"這部份應該海巡也有做一些剛剛署長也在說明報告當中有提到有針對我們的情緣做必要的一個教育這種可能臨港有什麼演習的時候叫海有關的演習這種可能要特別納入因為這看起來有可能他們現在說什麼去淘寶要一些不好的東西當過來的東西就是爛,叫一些草薯,不太好人會人會,再來捏便當的"},{"start":11362.413,"end":11380.115,"text":"他們這個身分算假喔所以這我們可能要特別注意一下國安局長請教一下阿強阿曾發布十大毀台措施嘛要毀滅台灣的十大措施嘛有沒有哪一條是你意外的"},{"start":11381.714,"end":11408.002,"text":"呃 基本上 我剛才在跟其他委員說明啦大概到我們選舉之前都會有這些所謂的對待錯失哪一條你很意外對 那我要講的重點是大概之前都有提過啦以前都有提過所以沒有什麼意外對 大概都是他如果要選一個最意外的你國安局長你不好意思說你如果真的說意外你可能沒辦法做局長裡面有一條我最關心他說金門、廈門共用機場"},{"start":11412.937,"end":11436.385,"text":"今天梁文傑副主委接受媒體問的時候,他說太隆重,不知道那是什麼意思,說了回來,好沒關係局長,你看看事實上那個祥安機場,我們真的是沒有意外,是因為它本來在今年年底就要落成所以在它的機場興建過程當中,我們都有在注意它相關的動態另外,它也有做一些宣傳,對"},{"start":11437.165,"end":11458.645,"text":"還有做一些宣傳包括機場要開放一些攤位給台商來承租包括鼓勵我們外離島民眾運用祥安機場當國際機場所以他這部分的操作在之前中共的官宣媒體就已經有在進行那這一次只是有提出來重新再講一次你現在如果是說我現在看到一些民意代表不知道是什麼是替人說的還是什麼"},{"start":11460.246,"end":11483.359,"text":"他說因為金門,這個地方常常在吃農藥啦所以有時候飛機沒辦法降落金門,整個停到廈門啦這你國安局看還會不會通對啊,所以剛剛各位說明的是,這比較像是一個統戰的操作你說我們台灣對松山北的金門嘛,我們站成本很多飛機的嘛現在說金門就沒辦法降落,我看這幫利農的,我看這幫華信的,沒有辦法直接降落廈門啦"},{"start":11489.984,"end":11512.722,"text":"這樣會不會通沒有 這還是不太可行啦因為他也沒有跟我們有做過相關的討論委員看到應該是他在統戰過程當中釋放的一些訊息啦來讓台灣內部社會來針對這些議題不知道怎麼回應或是內部出現一些不同的意見所以這個問題事實上從大概一年多前就已經有在操作有關襄陽機場的問題那國安局的態度是什麼"},{"start":11514.295,"end":11530.849,"text":"那基本上我們認為香安機場在落成之後那不管是一些航線或是管制區還是要透過管道跟我們政府來做溝通跟討論所以他認定也是國際機場嗎他的機場他定位是在國際機場不是啦,一定是國際機場要給你開放一個叫做台灣的什麼航站啊"},{"start":11534.059,"end":11560.702,"text":"他現在確實在操作的宣傳上有特別提到同等待遇啦也就是讓我們外離島的民眾那在使用這些機場或中共的交通設施可以跟中國大陸的民眾一樣所以他整體後面有一個統戰策略的包裝那國安局的角度我們當然就是來揭露中共這樣的一個做法讓國人在討論的時候比較知道中共背後的一個政治的地圖你一定要提醒交通部跟民安局這不是在開玩笑的"},{"start":11561.262,"end":11572.25,"text":"對,有這坐飛機騎新聞機騎護照是沒用的這雙山機場要出門坐的行車也沒用你不可以在國內行車的車位,什麼下來變一個黑門,在裝車的你如果這樣做,像我們這種去阿京阿化要乘坐的那種我現在如果坐一間房子,飛機拿回去下門我就下車他現在說沒辦法降落,降落來下門"},{"start":11590.12,"end":11610.395,"text":"所以這國安局要提醒交通部局、民營局國內機場就是國內機場國際機場就是國際機場不能用奇奇怪怪的理由來用所以接下來這幾個重要的題目你今天也有說他們這阿強水池會收回去我們說要開放這個,我們又說農產品上面有糖,它又不行所以這個國安局要加油,還有海巡署"},{"start":11618.101,"end":11618.661,"text":"我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12306.923,"end":12311.245,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請這個國防部副部長還有這個海巡署請國防部副部長以及海巡署"},{"start":12327.611,"end":12354.29,"text":"我想《紐約時報》這個報導之後其實國人都非常關心今天這個議題我想這個時候做這個專報其實非常重要我有再讀到這次的報告裡面其實國防部跟海巡署都有提到這個事情我知道因為不同部會他對於這些多元的情資他要做這個徵收的目的都不太一樣"},{"start":12355.972,"end":12375.43,"text":"因為兩個單位其實都有講到這個部分就是說資訊量很大然後我們需要用一些比較科技的方法就像AI這樣子因為那天其實國安局有跟國安局長做了一下意見的交換所以今天主要就是針對國安部跟海軍署這邊有很多類似的部分"},{"start":12376.371,"end":12404.369,"text":"就是剛剛其實前面我也有提到就是有關於這個所謂的整合啦不曉得這個整合的部分是不是先請這個副部長就是說有一些也許是海巡那邊像剛剛他們用一些紅外線的一些資料那怎麼樣統合做一個偵搜或群搜的一個工具首先那個跟委員報告就是說我們的國軍岸基雷達跟海巡岸基雷達基本上是有一個分工的"},{"start":12405.217,"end":12430.47,"text":"那我們主要負責12海浬以外比較大型中型的目標所以禁岸其實不是我們的範圍但是我們的雷情跟海巡的這個徵收系統是互通的所以我們看到的我們也會讓海巡通知因為現在假設要交給AI來處理可以減少人員的一些負荷所以我覺得這個可能整合的部分會比過去"},{"start":12431.01,"end":12447.791,"text":"用人工的方式要來得更重要包括他那個情資的判讀啦或者是他哪些訊號要怎麼做橫向的連結啦我覺得可能過去也許沒有這個問題因為人會做主觀的判斷嘛不過現在AI可能就是有關於這個所謂的整合的部分可能特別重要那是不是請海巡署這邊"},{"start":12448.772,"end":12472.404,"text":"再為說明一下就是有關於這個整合就你們那邊的情資跟委員報告我們海巡組雷情的整個海面偵測的這個資料都有跟國防部同步分享那國防部的海情部分也會在我們的雷情上面呈現所以我們在海面步伐管理上是銜接沒有漏洞的部分"},{"start":12472.884,"end":12496.573,"text":"另外國防部因為他主要是負責軍事的部分所以他還是以中大型的目標為主那我們海巡署是以中大型以外的中小型的目標為主那我們兩個群之是互通的所以我們在雷情的那個畫面上是可以看到國防部所有的海巡的目標那國防部也可以看到我們整個雷情上面的所有的海巡署的目標"},{"start":12497.513,"end":12514.759,"text":"是…我想這樣是沒有什麼問題我想大家應該都看得到只是我剛剛說過因為我們今天開這個專報基本上就是因為這兩件事情好像越來越模糊到底是軍還是民搞不太清楚到底是誰他到底是帶有什麼樣的任務過來的其實常常搞不清楚但我想其實可能大家都看得到"},{"start":12515.399,"end":12536.429,"text":"我的意思是說是不是要建立一個機制那到底是要做怎麼樣的處理我覺得這個非常重要尤其在你們報告裡面有講到就是要被動轉成主動主動就不像過去看到只是看到那個畫面而已看到什麼事情在做什麼樣的處理也許要更有一些比較advanced就是更前面的一些舉措"},{"start":12537.87,"end":12556.27,"text":"因為我們知道過去這些很多他都會把那個IS關掉然後造成我們很多探討上的困難不知道這個部分這個海巡署這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎各位委員包括那有關這個海綿目標管理的部分就是我們現在發現以後都會標定它的目的"},{"start":12556.61,"end":12581.629,"text":"那另外剛剛委員特別提到關閉AIS因為我們現在有另外一個系統可以去偵測暗傳系統也就是說他從出港以後然後就開始關閉AIS那我們可以從他的軌跡就可以查證他的後面的相關的軌跡也可以推斷他的位置所以這個部分特別跟委報我們現在有好幾個系統在做這個所謂的剛剛委員提到關閉AIS暗傳系統的部分"},{"start":12581.809,"end":12597.543,"text":"所以這個部分其實在徵收上面它相對一部分是彌補我們現在雷達徵收上面的盲點所以就我今天提出這個資訊的最主要原因因為AI既然用AI資訊量要大而且要正確不管它有沒有做什麼樣的"},{"start":12599.364,"end":12621.316,"text":"預先的一些舉措那我這邊有收集到一個新聞資料就是今年四月的時候有一個漁船我們基本上在發現它有一些狀況有點奇怪不過後來說看到最後的結果是因為它上面裝了一些中國的這個發泡器是不是我不曉得針對這個這是一艘我們在發現以為我們是它是發泡中國的AIS"},{"start":12627.939,"end":12644.857,"text":"但是我們的徐鳳町到現場以後發現它是東港級的漁船那上面的 對不起 琉球系的漁船那上面的裝載的那一個發泡器是魚巨的AIS就是我們現在有很多岩層吊啦 包括地庫啦所以我剛剛一錄下來就讓我有點擔心啦"},{"start":12647.319,"end":12663.535,"text":"像這種事情我知道你們好像後面有做了一些訪查我想現在的狀況怎麼樣後續應該要怎麼樣來處理把這個可能這樣子的因為它魚巨用的AIS沒有發射魚船的AIS如果關閉或者是尾帽或者什麼它是有發射的"},{"start":12663.695,"end":12691.346,"text":"但是有魚巨的部分是沒有法則這部分我們已經建立主管機關漁業署這邊來做改進那現在另外一部分就特別跟尾巴我們現在很多的定制漁網延伸掉他通通會用AIS去標定他的位置因為他放了以後人就離開所以他就從AIS去所以說不會再有這樣的狀況因為我知道因為我們在那個那個所謂雷達上面最怕看到看到的搞不清楚到底是敵人還是自己"},{"start":12691.906,"end":12718.119,"text":"我覺得這個是一個很麻煩的一個現象所以那個我們現在那個Marine Traveling的網站裡面去看然後如果各位如果有機會去上去看它就很多AIS的訊號其實它有一大部分是漁網漁具的AIS但是現在因為中國的AIS比較便宜所以我們現在有很多的國籍的漁船會去採用AIS所以這個有辦法把它排除掉嗎或是請他們我看看你們"},{"start":12718.699,"end":12744.431,"text":"我們會去點選就是比較可點選因為漁網漁具的AIS的前面的標碼跟我們漁船用的注射用的那個AIS是不一樣的那另外跟委員包現在有一個比較嚴重的狀況就是AIS可以更換可以取代可以變造 偽造對 所以就是我現在說的這個如果我們現在要用AIS嘛如果INPUT的這一段的資訊是錯誤的我想後面再怎麼我們再怎麼精進啊"},{"start":12745.191,"end":12765.967,"text":"或是買多少有算力的東西或多少軟體可能效果都不會太好因為AI的發展會越來越進步只要我們的資料庫夠大夠多那AI判讀都越精準所以我們現在倒進到AI裡面去的資料庫我們現在慢慢一直在建立在充實"},{"start":12767.148,"end":12785.2,"text":"另外跟委員報告所有的海面目標我們對於台灣有威脅譬如說是中資的旋翼輪啊譬如說這一個這個那個後滾輪啊這些我們都有列管註記只要進到台灣水域他就會自動告解所以署長應該下次不會再有這個誤認或錯認的狀況出現吧還是說還是有可能會發生"},{"start":12788.522,"end":12813.017,"text":"因為他發報的時候我們不太清楚嘛所以我們還是會覺得很可疑他很靠近那在我們的聯合營業區裡面我們還是會派人去辨識啦所以還是請署長這件事情要keep in mind就是把他當作一些非常重要的事情因為我想我們今天在討論這件事情的時候這個是非常重要的事情好不好那請那個署長可以先我們請部長一下"},{"start":12815.841,"end":12831.066,"text":"因為我上次一直在很關心軍職人員照顧小孩的部分那些有特別質詢中副那些有特別跟我做一些報告不過我再把我的問題再確認一下"},{"start":12832.046,"end":12859.041,"text":"因為這個很多人跟我反映其實這個我們比較care的應該是拖音那個部分就是0到2歲那個部分就很多軍職人員我上次主席的時候有特別提到就常常夫妻兩位其實都可能都是所以我們現在這個在不同的這個單位我們其實都在為了這個少子女化在做很多努力我當然也希望就軍方這邊來說也可以給這些軍職人員做一些這個實質上最拖音的這些支持"},{"start":12859.821,"end":12880.303,"text":"因為我們上次有去詢問國防部現在看起來這幾個提供我們的資訊大概都還是二到六歲以後的所以我還是強調希望能夠強化所謂的拖音的部分就是零到二分這個是不是請副長稍微大概說一下因為後面可能直接來不及"},{"start":12881.547,"end":12895.466,"text":"好 鮑偉仁這個我手上沒有特別關於拖音的資料不過您講這個問題我們回去研究一下我再回覆您好不好我知道現在的確我們主要是兩到六歲配合政府政策這部分我們是有"},{"start":12896.46,"end":12912.24,"text":"對 所以因為很多後面這個因為現在大家其實都不是兩歲以後常常都是更小然後是因為軍職人員其實他散佈在很多我們這個不同甚至是離島我們都覺得這個可能他的資源配備更不足"},{"start":12912.941,"end":12933.151,"text":"那沒有關係 因為今天可能時間上不是很來得及因為我們有收集到一些資料那我們還是因為我原來都在勞政那邊我希望給這些軍事人員在工作上 因為我們軍人也是工作給他們更多的協助讓他們都願意生小孩讓我們可以一起來解決這個小子女化的問題謝謝委員關心好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":12939.605,"end":12943.509,"text":"接下來我們請沈博洋委員上台質詢好謝謝主席那先有請這個海委會這個張副防制部主委海巡署謝謝請副主委"},{"start":12968.485,"end":12979.454,"text":"因為前陣子這個習政會在訪中前一天有中國軍艦的這個維台那我今天時間因素我可能就不問國防部說這個相關的一些訊息"},{"start":12980.655,"end":12985.58,"text":"但因為這個國台辦在這個4月8號的時候他有說這個海警巡護兩岸漁民那這個對我來講這個從我們2024年開始金門那一次的事件之後其實這種常態的騷擾已經變得越來越多那他們有可能想要把它常態化我認為說這可能也是屬於他們想要擴張法律權力的一環"},{"start":13005.599,"end":13028.487,"text":"所以從4月8日開始,這個海巡署對整件事情的處理跟掌握大概是如何?是否可以跟國人說明一下?從113年棟嶺二世案件以後,中國海警常態性的在我們金門跟麻竺做這個常態性的繞島的巡查"},{"start":13029.167,"end":13058.687,"text":"那每個月有四次會進到我們的限制水域裡面那這個部分我們全程都有掌握跟監控另外它進到我們的限制水域我們會以一對一的方式用水溫瓶把它驅離然後幹到這個外面那這個現象也持續到現在一直都是這樣那我們全程有監控那這一次所發生的就是從因為就從那個2024一直到現在嘛它一直持續不斷地做那就這一次它也沒有停止這樣的事情是嗎"},{"start":13059.627,"end":13086.428,"text":"沒有沒有所以這個就是說對我們來講不管是他們這個軍艦的一個騷擾或者說像他們的漁船的一個聚集又包含像這樣的他們稱所謂的他們海警要巡護這些騷擾其實一直都沒有停止那看起來並沒有釋出善意那我覺得這個對我們來講跟這個國家之間的交往其實應該是要打上一個很大的問號那接下來我想要請這個梁副主委請梁副主委 謝謝"},{"start":13091.8,"end":13092.146,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":13106.013,"end":13122.746,"text":"這一次的這個習政會當然我覺得很重要的一個框架就是說這個堅持九二共識然後多了這個反對台獨這幾個字眼那當然現在我所比較擔心的事情就是現在當然這一個所謂國共之間的框架看起來其實跟這個之前的這一個"},{"start":13123.685,"end":13145.687,"text":"蓮湖並沒有什麼太大的差別看起來沒有什麼實質的進展但是如果說今天像這樣的一個框架它已經由這樣的一個會面決定之後比如說我們來看我們的立法院有沒有可能比如說我們去修發展觀光條例又或者說我們去動這個離島建設條例又或者說和平協議的話其實最主要是兩岸條例的修法"},{"start":13146.328,"end":13170.133,"text":"那我們這邊會不會發生這個不知道但至少我們現在看到已經發生的就是比如說我們的國防這個預算現在還實質上被卡在這裡嘛總預算其實也是那像這一些呢實質上去弱化我們台灣國防跟國安的事情這個是實質上已經發生了那我現在比較擔心的就是因為他們現在就是發出了這個所謂會談的這個政策"},{"start":13171.613,"end":13192.725,"text":"那我相信梁副主委一定很熟悉之前這個所謂的藍八線就是他們想要只跟這個藍營執政的縣市去發展不管是相關的農產品的交流啦或者說中客的交流啦等等那我們現在對於這一種因為畢竟我們跟中國之間的交流照理說這個都是由中央政府或者由中央政府授權來做"},{"start":13193.966,"end":13211.62,"text":"那如果說他們現在漸漸的開始由地方政府然後根據他們現在這個會台措施然後自行的不管是簽訂相關的合約啦或者說在根本沒有合約的狀況之下時時就已經展開了進展這個對我們中央政府來講我們要如何因應"},{"start":13213.937,"end":13236.868,"text":"其實委員所講的這個現象本來就已經在發生中了譬如說台東跟對岸去做一個特別的協議有關於鳳梨釋迦這個部分然後指定哪些包裝廠或是哪些農場它的鳳梨釋迦是可以過去的"},{"start":13240.45,"end":13267.306,"text":"所以大概類似的事情都會發生不過現在的狀況可能我們台灣的狀況可能跟過去來講我覺得是有一些比較進步的地方也就是說譬如說以鳳梨世家來講雖然當初談成了這個協議但到現在恢復的量不大那為什麼因為第一個中國方面的經濟不好內需不強"},{"start":13268.376,"end":13294.597,"text":"他現在的很多國營企業他以前都是叫直接叫國營企業來買這個台灣的某一個地方的農產品等於是大家這個要一個Quota要一個責任制他現在現在也很困難做這些事情那包括那你說像鳳梨世家現在在雲南在海南島他的整個種植的面積都比台灣大了五倍以上不止所以他現在種植的種植的又便宜其實"},{"start":13296.865,"end":13300.66,"text":"台灣的鳳梨思佳其實在那邊已經競爭力是不高了"},{"start":13301.837,"end":13327.428,"text":"那所以對於農產品這一塊我們倒不是特別擔心而且我覺得農民這幾年來已經學到教訓了那所以這個部分的話我們覺得還好也就是說總的看起來這一次的這個實相的所謂的實相的會台措施大概都是過去的東西然後重新包裝一下新的東西不多"},{"start":13328.428,"end":13340.75,"text":"但是他換到的東西確實是很多等於是用一碗甜不辣換到了一盅佛跳牆這個佛跳牆是什麼這個就是整個台灣最大在野檔"},{"start":13343.052,"end":13366.27,"text":"到了北京然後在政治上面做出一些承諾然後譬如說什麼和平框架等等這些在政治上做出一些承諾然後向國際社會發出了在我們看來是一個錯誤的訊息譬如說你說我們不要外力的介入或是等等這樣子這些說法都會影響到台灣在國際社會上面的人家對你的看法"},{"start":13366.81,"end":13390.532,"text":"以及人家對你一旦有事的時候他們到底要怎麼對待你因為你的最大在野黨已經說過不要外力介入那人家要怎麼幫忙你或是軍售上面人家為什麼還需要賣武器給你這些事情我覺得這個是北京這一次宣傳上的最重大的勝利但是他付出的所謂的利多"},{"start":13391.826,"end":13411.607,"text":"就是這麼一點點而已對我覺得這個就是當然是一個算是加強版的這個所謂的九二共識那他給國際事務的訊息就剛剛跟梁副主委提到的其實是非常的不妙那另外呢剛剛有提到就是說這一個農產品確實我們的農民其實已經學到這個相關的養套殺的這個課程在之前都經歷過了"},{"start":13413.088,"end":13436.919,"text":"我們現在其實說真的我們非中國之類的外銷其實已經佔了四五十億那其實對中國來講是一直在往下降已經降到十億以下了所以照理說我們的農民知道這件事情但是宣傳上他們還是一直會不斷的講說你這個世家你這些世家到底是不是反對台獨是不是有支持一國兩制這個對他們來講才是重點能不能驗出什麼蟲等等之類的"},{"start":13438.88,"end":13456.808,"text":"對於當然說我們的農民的警覺性我覺得希望這個陸委會也還是能夠加強協助我們農委會去跟我們的農民來做宣導我覺得這樣才是一個但第二個我現在比較擔心的就是觀光因為觀光一直以來也是他們就是適合他們拿來做宣傳的工具跟農產品類似那"},{"start":13457.348,"end":13477.7,"text":"這一個所謂的自由行因為中國的觀光客他就算要來到這一邊呢他其實也要向其實戶口所在地的公安機關出入進去辦理這個所謂的大陸居民往來台灣這個通行證嘛個人旅遊的簽註嘛所以像這種最終可以操縱誰過來這可能還是跟中國的公安是有一定程度的關聯"},{"start":13479.001,"end":13495.217,"text":"那這個對我們來講是一定程度的風險就是說對方的宣傳當然是一直不斷的強調可以為台灣帶來利益雖然到最後都是一條龍那利益也是回歸到中國去那另外一個對我們來講很大的一個風險是他的公安介入公安介入他來的人他又會有另外一個程度的風險"},{"start":13496.098,"end":13509.143,"text":"那針對這件事情我們現在就跟我剛剛提到的南八線又是一模一樣的案例就是說我們這些城市我們先不要管說之前國共論壇講說什麼要什麼AI交流數據交流什麼醫療交流那個完全都是風險但"},{"start":13511.937,"end":13526.769,"text":"撇開國共亂談講的這些東西光是觀光這件事情所能夠造成的風險其實就已經非常巨大那我今天看到這個台中市長盧秀燕她也提到就是說希望盡快中央來做對決我覺得這都是很危險的事物"},{"start":13529.872,"end":13547.529,"text":"大陸人要來台灣本來他第一道程序就是他要向當地的公安局申請到進入台灣地區的證件這樣子那所以不管是團客也好或是自由行或者是一般商務旅客或者是等等其他專案的都是一樣的"},{"start":13550.471,"end":13573.217,"text":"都是一樣的也就是說大陸這邊他自己要先肯放行才可以所以不只是自由行在其他的部分其他用各種名義來台灣的大陸人其實都有同樣的他首先有一個他自己會審核然後會願意放哪些人不放哪些人那個是他們在決定"},{"start":13574.697,"end":13589.423,"text":"但是對我們來講自由行或是團客的部分其實都是兩邊必須要協商的不能說你當初2019年自由行說斷就斷現在你說要恢復就又恢復這個"},{"start":13592.484,"end":13613.132,"text":"對我們來說的話世界上沒有這麼簡單的事情你要斷就斷你要說恢復就恢復那這個台灣政府有台灣政府的立場所以不管是自由行還是團客我們都希望說先經過小兩會的商討再說這樣子但是到目前為止我們之前談團客的問題他們並沒有回復我們的要求"},{"start":13617.734,"end":13643.355,"text":"那自由行的部分這個也是他現在說片面所講所以我們還是在等他看看他們會不會回覆我們說雙邊協商的要求謝謝好那這邊就再請陸委會幫忙做把關那另外還有一個問題就是我想之後到內政委員會再來問就是報導者有報導一系列跟這個台北網紅節有關的這一些消網紅的這些統戰網路這個當然其實在我過往的研究已經也是看了很久"},{"start":13643.895,"end":13656.701,"text":"但看起來有一些新的跡象或有一個新的pattern那關於這個部分我想說就等到之後內政委會有機會的話我再來請教陸委會好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請牛許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席海巡署有請請海巡署"},{"start":13681.685,"end":13708.981,"text":"武安辛苦了這個監察院去年9月16號有一個內部調查報告指出就針對今天跟今天這個主題相關的也就是說海巡署的岸際監控能力他做了一個這個內部的調查報告說由雷達紅外線熱顯像然後再到智慧的岸際監控系統然後最後是人力組成的守望哨大概這四個層面來進行組成但這段時間發生很多的橡皮艇啊就是走這種灰色地帶也好或怎麼樣"},{"start":13710.141,"end":13732.05,"text":"來做滲透登陸的事件而且其實都在本來海軍署的監偵範圍之內所以它當然是一個有待這個優化的這樣子的一個防衛的機制那監察院的報告顯示說原因包含第一這個雷達對於小型目標那個橡皮艇嘛這個掌控能力當然就有所不足第二這個光學目獲系統的自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強"},{"start":13732.83,"end":13751.144,"text":"第三是守望哨跟雷達組成的尖針有的時候會有空窗的一個狀況所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整那麼海巡署在報告裡面有講就是說配合國土安全的任性特別預算就是我們之前通過的要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備導入AN4能判讀等等那針對光學幕後系統也講也在積極規劃籌建熱線向系統環島智慧暗記監控系統等等那麼就有這些"},{"start":13762.692,"end":13780.32,"text":"這樣子的一些說法那今天既然有排熱質詢相關的專案報告我們當然就希望可以聽到比較具體的說法因為你當然每一次這個大家都講說我在積極籌備我在做規劃我在做整理但問題是具體的這個目標跟內容是什麼我想這個充分的說明是有必要的所以我今天要問海軍署"},{"start":13781.44,"end":13798.231,"text":"第一個執行準備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明首先我問有關暗記雷達系統你講說未來導入AI判讀那熱顯像系統跟智慧型暗記監控系統好像還是要人工方式判讀這個科技跟人力之間如何協調來降低漏判或誤判的風險請回答"},{"start":13799.945,"end":13825.934,"text":"各位網友非常感謝委員也對於我們海巡組的特別預算有支持所以我們很順利的編列了284億的特別預算這中間裡面就是有剛剛委員講那幾項第一個有關新制雷達部分我們現在新制雷達是比舊的雷達還聰明我們現在這三個系統裡面我們全部會導入AI"},{"start":13827.575,"end":13846.209,"text":"去做然後我們有一個另外一個建案就是把整個海域的狀況一個COP整個海域狀況把它連結串聯起來也就是剛剛委員提到的部分就是後續的兩項沒有辦法整合的部分我們會利用這個建案裡面就全部把它整合起來就是全部導入A來做判別然後"},{"start":13846.969,"end":13862.257,"text":"彼此之間的連結跟這個資訊的互通那所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題我們會在這一次裡面全部把它一次解決你這個跟你報告講就是一樣的概念嘛就是我們要導入AI我們要進行整備那我想今天要講詳細一點比如說你現在整備到什麼程度了"},{"start":13864.359,"end":13880.557,"text":"我們現在的岸際雷達我們現在開始在做標案116年雷達跟紅花仙熱影像還有環島智慧型監控跟港軍監控這四項所有的監控系統會在116年全部完成"},{"start":13881.098,"end":13907.193,"text":"所以116年 年初 年終 年底 全體建置完成那個因為預算結算是在到年底但是有一部分會在115年就會做結束因為它是階段性的因為還考慮到那個招標廠商的量能還有我們的基地的建置所以它不可能一次在一個年度把它做完我們分兩個年度把它全部做完沒關係 會有提供詳細書面報告因為其實既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做而且也應該往這個方向做"},{"start":13907.893,"end":13934.256,"text":"立法院也通過預算支持你們往這個方向去做那現在大家在監督進度啊我的預算既然通過了我執行總要有效果吧到115年年底今年年底大家可以做完哪些事116年年初年終年底分別做完哪些事這個還是要詳細說明啦這免得監察院也提報告立法院排列專案報告但都沒有進展這樣是很可惜的事好不好這我相信既然大家都有做那就多交代讓大家比較安心第二個是圖資的部分啊"},{"start":13934.816,"end":13952.911,"text":"這個圖資的部分我們還有一位主委是很會做圖啊還PO臉書對不對但大家知道重點嘛是真正你這些真正掌握情勢的圖資你內部在防止滲透的各式各樣的圖資你能不能做有效的整合然後做大家看的其實是結果你有沒有辦法有效防堵圖資的部分核整備進度是不是說明一下"},{"start":13953.371,"end":13975.599,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有的海面監控的圖資包括國防部包括有軍給的圖資他本來就是那個我們勤職整個早上我們每天早上都會開都在做的嘛就都在做的都在做部分那另外那個剛剛委員有特別提到就是那個管處委員的這個圖資部分我這邊要特別跟說明很多次了不用再說明了啦我知道啦"},{"start":13975.999,"end":14000.992,"text":"就是說那是他自己在做的我知道但關鍵是你剛剛你講說你本來就有國防部的友軍提供的你自己整理的圖資都會做整合對不對但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來說要檢討就是因為這些圖資顯然掛一漏萬嘛這些特殊的滲透式的小型載具等等還有問題嘛所以我要問你的問題是你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中怎麼樣防渡這樣的狀況再次出現回答這個問題就好了謝謝"},{"start":14002.403,"end":14019.703,"text":"我聽您講的是說小目標沒有辦法找到或者說你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險嗎特別跟委員報告我們現在所有的包括海面包括空中聯合勤政的東西都會進到平台裡面來那也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位"},{"start":14021.144,"end":14043.894,"text":"國安部的部分 海情部門 包括海面目標部門也會分享到這個海巡署來所以它的圖示是共用的 而且在平台上面可以完全呈現所以在剛剛講到有圖示落差的部分是沒有問題的現在是監察院提醒你的部分是這樣嘛就是說你都有圖嘛 你有很多嘛但你怎麼去分類 然後怎麼精準掌握嘛去避免這樣的狀況出現嘛 這個才是現在的問題吧"},{"start":14044.854,"end":14064.544,"text":"對 跟委員報案 因為監察院調查那是兩年前的事我們現在已經慢慢的在改善 未來的部分 投資的部分會整合在一起不會有剛剛講的部分就是 這一個是歸這個 那個是歸那個未來會整合在一起 會整個呈現在一個COP整個平台裡面"},{"start":14064.844,"end":14093.33,"text":"沒關係這個一樣嘛就是說你在每個階段之後你做了哪一些的優化讓它的分裂可以清楚然後讓大家的掌握可以更明白一樣你就按照剛剛前面我們講嘛就是你雷達系統等等的升級有個時間表的改善方式一樣會後做書面說明就可以了可以嗎好不好我們就要提醒這個事第三個我要補充一下就是說現在大家都講嘛這無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的堅真嘛它是戰場上的眼睛一樣那同樣海巡署我在做岸際巡防等等的時候當然也需要無人機那無人機這個"},{"start":14094.81,"end":14113.307,"text":"如同剛剛您回答的就是說在特別預算裡面也編兩百多億其中一百四十八億是這個提升你的這個巡查量能無人機的部分四十億基本上都通過只有少量凍結所以你該做的還是可以做的預算也都給了對不對但是我看到裡面有寫說你現在只用懸疑型的"},{"start":14114.208,"end":14141.477,"text":"舊型載具嘛那舊型載具的缺點是這樣第一個續航力50分鐘但是關鍵是抗風係數可能比較低一點這大家都知道無人機怕風嘛就吹跑了就不穩了那海上作業那抗風係數更是更重要所以是不夠的所以你講說我要做新型的無人機懸疑事辦計畫提升續航力跟這個抗風可是後來引擎技術出了問題啊驗收不合格造成了沒有辦法處理的狀況所以解約了好啦那現在怎麼辦呢"},{"start":14142.057,"end":14167.405,"text":"我的無人機第二階段我的升級我現在最新的招標狀況我目標新買的無人機的內容是什麼騎乘是什麼這個也是要說明一下吧我們把它公布起來吧特別跟委員報告我們107年就建立就開始使用無人機我想應該是公共機關裡面最早使用無人機來做徵收跟這個救生救難但是那一代的無人機因為那個時空環境影響其實它的無人機的效能是很差的"},{"start":14167.985,"end":14185.005,"text":"這不是 但是現在因為無人機土地猛進所以我們剛剛委員講的部分講的是我們二代機那二代機因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求所以他就解約但是我們那個案子已經解約完了以後我們重新起案那案子也順利的招標我們現在是有第二代機已經招標結束所以是可以同樣廠商做嗎"},{"start":14185.746,"end":14205.424,"text":"不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 完全不一樣那第二代的無人機的滯空 抗風跟徵收效能比第一代好太多了好太多了所以我們已經 我們在今年的六月份會交機那目前是在做接機跟教育訓練接機 現在是四月 所以還有一個多月全部交完嗎 還是分批交機"},{"start":14207.045,"end":14235.071,"text":"全部交完還是分批票 全部交全部都交完 有要補充說明的嗎 可以補充說明沒關係全部交機 所以我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題沒有問題 那個規格非常好 而且我們有做POC整個實際實測過了 從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來也都測試過了 我們希望這個東西如期如質的來進行整備跟處理 只要是這樣我想立法院對於這些東西基本上都會是支持的好 海軍署請回 謝謝"},{"start":14236.711,"end":14263.539,"text":"這 國安局長有請請國安局長好 謝謝主席喔 劉委員好局長 辛苦了這個這個我 我請教一下啦這當然您比較專業 但沒有關係啦這監察院調查報告裡面曾經有指出喔 這國防部啊這為了避免滲透嘛 我們今天討論的是這個主題嘛避免這個不提高這個對於滲透的警覺性所以國防部有設計 比如說天威測考 比如說不確"},{"start":14264.619,"end":14279.048,"text":"這自己派特戰部隊去做試驗嘛看看我們的平常的官兵在營舍裡面等等有沒有是否具備充足的這個警覺性那有做了很多次的這個作為一個考評的標準這當然都是很好的事情啊提升警覺性這是強化戰備的一部分喔那"},{"start":14279.818,"end":14306.431,"text":"國安局長你從國安的角度就我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度你有沒有相關的這樣子一些機制或是測驗因為最近好多共諜案很危險對不對我們內部集合把控的這樣子的一些機制你的努力是什麼你要不要說明一下因為這部分因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標就我們本身在不管是保防或反情報滲透都有一個機制在那包括有定期的進行移測那移測大概"},{"start":14307.071,"end":14335.481,"text":"全中華民國政府裡面做的最積極最平面的應該是本局做測謊的概念那另外只要有任何的出國回來也都還要再進行相關的一個歸巡跟移測來避免到在海外有被接觸的一個狀況那另外我們的督察單位也都會有定期的來針對我們的同仁做必要的一個訪談跟清巡那來提醒同仁注意一下回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸所以我們是有一個機制在運作"},{"start":14336.061,"end":14357.107,"text":"你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的機合跟建設其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念就因應這樣的可能的狀況那你做國安的這個主管機關其他局處的針對內部的這樣子一個反對滲透或者是防制滲透的這樣的各種措施啊政府各機關對不對因為他是無所不在那你們的做法是什麼"},{"start":14357.327,"end":14375.047,"text":"對 我們大概分幾個部分一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的這樣的一個反滲透的機制把它完善好那另外就是跟我們的國安情報機關總共11個機關我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關來做分享那另外就是推展到政府的部分那因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查"},{"start":14375.447,"end":14393.574,"text":"那調查局也是我們的國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關所以我們也會把這部分有些過去的一些案例的一些狀況讓調查局在進行政府的這些相關的反情報的滲透當中也能夠依照過去的一個經驗來做一個比較完善機制的建立"},{"start":14393.874,"end":14408.261,"text":"好 那本席提醒一下嘛 因為各 其實這應該是各個部會啦甚至是其他都要有一些警覺性要有所提高那國安局這個地方作為 你可能是示範 或者是你內部有一些 有做合理的分享然後分不同的層次 情報的敏感度我們也有針對一些比較高風險的局處 可能要做部會啦"},{"start":14414.003,"end":14429.018,"text":"目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單我本期在這邊做一下提醒希望這個部分看看彼此之間借財一些情報防制的這些經驗能夠讓滲透的狀況可以降到最低謝謝 國安局長請回主席我可以再要一分鐘嗎我請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委謝謝主席"},{"start":14443.888,"end":14472.617,"text":"委員好 副主委吳安這很多委員今天都趁機講一下這個政協會的一些狀況那我直接切入重點因為今天總統府說嘛這個實相措施以及等等相關的這個後續如果有誠意就要跟政府來進行協商那當然嘛這個世界各國也很多人都講樂於對話對話也不要只跟在野黨對話如果跟執政黨跟政府可以有效對話都對於緩解兩岸關係是有一定正面的一個幫助副主委你同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":14473.46,"end":14493.989,"text":"同意啊所有的兩岸之間的措施都是應該跟台灣民選政府對話的你講得真好現在總統府現在講說有誠意就要來協商你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話呢還是有打算付諸實際行動我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次了譬如說團客的觀光"},{"start":14495.449,"end":14515.766,"text":"這個部分我們希望能夠來協商小兩會的能夠來磋商但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回覆嘛所以就卡在這裡所以我今天問了嘛就是說今天既然大家都講對話這件事好像蠻重要的我們先不設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好但是我現在要問的只有你現在陸委會介紹的只是要把它正式付諸行動了嗎"},{"start":14517.162,"end":14530.79,"text":"還是就只是今天講一講新聞對付過去就算了因為每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後我們就要看他有沒有要找我們討論然後或者是說他們希望他們要怎麼樣接下來進行那"},{"start":14532.851,"end":14558.135,"text":"所以譬如說他們昨天講說這個上海福建的自由行是那這個部分我們就等他們提出來他們什麼叫有一個正式的東西不是說發個新聞稿發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情這本席不反對啦就是說各個政黨執政也好債也好如果有辦法用對話的方式來降低兩岸衝突的風險我想對於國家安全都有一定幫助它不是唯一的方法但它是有效的方法之一"},{"start":14558.715,"end":14585.113,"text":"那我現在比較擔心的是因為這一連串的過程國內當然就草翻天了嘛 對不對那我現在想的是這政府屢次喊話你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道但是好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進就你的立場跟你的方法之間總要有總要可以對稱嘛就是我有你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方但是你要堅持這樣立場的時候你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場又完成對話的目標陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備"},{"start":14588.359,"end":14611.44,"text":"如果對方還是堅持什麼九二共識反獨的立場才能夠對話協商那這個基本上可能性就不大但是我們希望說兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求嘛那如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提否則其他什麼都不談的話那就沒辦法"},{"start":14612.096,"end":14622.794,"text":"所以你剛剛講其實還是立場就是說你政府有政府要守住這我完全尊重因為大家政治立場本來就可以不一樣民主社會是這樣但在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候你的選擇是什麼我們政府的選擇是什麼"},{"start":14624.264,"end":14651.264,"text":"政府的選擇是中華民國的生存啊中華民國如果不能生存下去那其他利益都不用談了所以某些政治前提如果你危及到中華民國的生存那其他的說你說能賣多少的鳳梨或是柑橘所以我就講眼下你現在面對這些狀況的時候你的選擇是什麼現在就是所謂有四項措施啊也沒有談到別的東西對吧"},{"start":14652.616,"end":14676.084,"text":"這十項措施從我們的角度來看其實就是新瓶裝舊酒啦新瓶裝舊酒其實都不是什麼大禮包啦現在大家講的好像很了不起其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆大概就是這樣所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場嗎方法就算了是吧"},{"start":14677.104,"end":14702.611,"text":"我們還是希望對方能夠如果你想要做什麼那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話現在是溫情喊話看有沒有辦法成就這個事沒關係溫情喊話也是方法之一沒關係本席不做任何預設立場我們中華民國現在需要很多方法大家都有不同立場我們已經很清楚了大家都知道但是我們需要解決事情的方法這是我給陸委會你們的本職工作是促進交流這是本席的層次的提醒時間已經到了我們就不多談了謝謝"},{"start":14708.615,"end":14712.697,"text":"好 接下來請徐巧欽委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們先請這個國安局長請國安局蔡局長好 謝謝主席 學員好"},{"start":14732.767,"end":14759.405,"text":"我想先問一下因為我最近在新聞上也看到了好幾起就是說有不具名的國安人士然後呢是表示說那就是有一些比如說像是可能戰爭相關的啊或是很多議題那這個中共他會用認知作戰的方式非常快速的把這個議題放到台灣的政論節目上面去討論請問一下這樣子的國安人士的說法那國安局這邊是"},{"start":14761.186,"end":14787.4,"text":"什麼態度啊對 中共大概在對台的認知作戰委員剛剛講到的那是一種方式所以你認為確實是有說透過台灣的政論節目去做認知作戰對 它可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散那也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目以及各種網路社群的討論所以是中繼的影響還是直接跟政論節目的互動"},{"start":14788.63,"end":14807.408,"text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動 我應該也記得那個案例嘛那個案例不是後來沒了嗎 所以有喔沒有 那個案例後來已經運送偵辦司法機關在偵辦是喔 那他偵辦就也好久了也沒看到進度啊因為那個時候我知道我知道我知道 我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情只是說"},{"start":14807.808,"end":14819.36,"text":"我只是很疑惑就是說當初不是電視台然後講說沒有這件事情然後主持人也出來講說沒有這件事情但是你們掌握是你們仍然認為說這是一個我們是有情知的你們認為有這樣的情知是不是那這個電視台可能今天沒有在但蠻尷尬的"},{"start":14825.526,"end":14853.038,"text":"那就讓他繼續進到這個對 我們尊重司法偵辦的情緒就讓他繼續去偵辦但是謝謝你告訴我說原來你們是認為有這個情資然後確實有有 當時我就公開這樣講了我們是有相關的情資我的意思是說當這個電視台他們都否認之後你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛是這麼說嘛 對不對對 我們有情資好 那了解了可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點這一點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論"},{"start":14854.158,"end":14870.39,"text":"比如說像最近有在討論印度移工的事情我想問一下印度移工的議題討論你覺得這是來自於中共的任職作戰嗎我的印象當中當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波的梅宣的處理"},{"start":14872.071,"end":14886.028,"text":"我問的是說是不是來自於中共的認知對 中共的有一些我應該知道了以我們的技術能量我們可以去進行相關的帳號的溯源IP的查找那有一些IP我們只要判斷大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共"},{"start":14886.408,"end":14902.472,"text":"我可以看一下當時公視有做這樣的一個報導然後也讓NHK做了一個報導他提到的是台灣民主實驗室是用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的比如說他提到了假設說這個"},{"start":14904.813,"end":14923.435,"text":"人認為呢 假如台灣政府真是缺心眼這個 word use for stupid is also one use in the mainland not in Taiwan所以這個當時民主實驗室是這樣子去做一個解釋我看下一張投影片 上面有寫 你可以看英文的部分"},{"start":14923.815,"end":14941.998,"text":"也就是說比如說盜竊跟竊盜這個用法或是如果你講的缺心眼像類似這樣子的一個詞彙的運用被用為說不是台灣常見的使用用語的話就會被界定為認知作戰嗎這樣的一個界定會不會太過於狹隘了"},{"start":14943.309,"end":14955.384,"text":"就這部分來講當然透過現在的一些爬蟲程式可以針對一些內容來做一些篩略那我剛才在跟委員說明我們可能除了內容以外我們還會判斷那個船上的管道是不是一個異常帳號"},{"start":14956.793,"end":14980.44,"text":"那這個也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳善的一個依據您剛剛提到就是說有關於說所謂的印度移工的這個事情是當時你認為說有當時因為我們在講當時有這個中共的這個認知作戰在裡面可是呢我們可以看到像這樣子的一個報導他在2025年的10月的時候被公視揭露說他認為說當時有這個情況嘛"},{"start":14983.081,"end":14998.91,"text":"可是其實在討論的過程當中2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU那為什麼還是認定說這個叫做認知作戰就對一般民眾來說會覺得說確實這個你看確實當初本來說是假訊息這個勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說"},{"start":15009.127,"end":15028.081,"text":"引進印度移工當然有一個差別啦就是他有講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息他是一起講的這點我也要幫忙說明那但是呢這個事情沒過多久之後馬上的那就在100在這個很快你可以看到就馬上簽訂了這個MOU所以"},{"start":15031.443,"end":15051.787,"text":"這個事情只是因為要已經要簽署了然後還沒有公開那他就被認為說是政治作戰還是說呢你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定因為我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的就你今天有一個議題就算他一開始呢他的溯源他可能你認為說有幾個中共的什麼IP在幹嘛的"},{"start":15054.548,"end":15074.301,"text":"但我們還是要區分說這個事情是不是台灣民眾所關心的如果這個訊息是台灣民眾所關心所建議然後呢認為說有問題的不能把民怨等同於認知作戰即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火"},{"start":15075.242,"end":15089.071,"text":"但是它跟民怨之間就真的台灣有民怨對於是不是要開放印度移工這是一個事實那裡面小部分的人煽風點火就可能在任何的一個議題裡面都會出現中共它嘗試做這樣的方式可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰的煽風點火所以才對這個議題有意見那這個議題的整體討論它就不應該被列為所謂的是因為認知作戰這樣 您怎麼看對"},{"start":15103.881,"end":15127.771,"text":"委員舉這個例子我可以理解也就是說後來確實有簽署MOU但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外我們會針對它的傳散的手法以及它的異常帳號的IP的浮動的狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作那另外就議題來講當時比較引起我們關注的內容是在於有點去誇大"},{"start":15129.051,"end":15154.06,"text":"印度移工進來可能會對於台灣社會之安包括對於女性侵害那一部分的誇大所以我們重體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有信心的操作因為現在台灣民眾也在討論這個議題重新在討論說印度的移工那要進到台灣來然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論的這一些議題議程當中的"},{"start":15156.201,"end":15181.563,"text":"那請問你有觀察到大概最近對於印度移工是否要引進台灣這件事情有中共的認知作戰嗎最近我們看到是比較零星的那沒有像上次委員在提到一兩年前那一次比較有系統的所以你認為這一次確實是民怨而不是中共的認知作戰我們看到的境外的IP是比較零星的"},{"start":15181.983,"end":15210.779,"text":"因為討論這件事情他當然是針對反對因為我想講的是反對的意見嘛所以就說好我修正我的詞彙就反對引進印度移工現在不管在網路或是輿論甚至政論節目的討論裡面那國安局這裡在這一波判定裡面基本上不太有中共認知作戰的引進目前還沒有大規模的而是單純台灣人民的意志是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":15211.519,"end":15233.59,"text":"目前在原子能力當然會有不同的討論的角度就像委員講的我們是個多元的社會有不同的討論那就國安局的角度來講我們比較注意的是國安的狀況有沒有境外勢力的操作這一塊那我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據我剛有跟委員說明了有各種不同的指標那我再問你說這一波就是在大概一周來說的話因為討論"},{"start":15235.511,"end":15258.668,"text":"討論非常多它幾乎是包含在社群上面的最高關鍵討論度討論度最高的最近兩個議題一個是寵物用藥討論度更高的是印度移工因為上一次被界定為說是政治作戰所以這一次我很希望跟您確認一下這一波以來國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰還是台灣內部的自行討論"},{"start":15260.209,"end":15276.764,"text":"到目前跟委員討論這個時間點為止我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作但我們後續會再來注意那接下來我要問的事情是有一點時間了在今年二月底的時候因為這個台日在台北大巨蛋有這個台日棒球交流賽嘛"},{"start":15277.965,"end":15299.083,"text":"那賴清德總統他有親自觀賽那時候維安規格是非常高的結果我們的負責維安勤務的38歲的江姓現役軍人呢然後呢因為先去做安全檢查的關係呢就呢在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走了六顆紀念性的棒球裡面還有拉拉多多圓圈圈的這個簽名球那事後警方這個透過監視器就發現說是這個他順手牽羊"},{"start":15304.628,"end":15327.299,"text":"那後來呢他變成說是以為是沒有人要的垃圾雖然已經歸還了可是被依盜竊罪含送台北地檢署偵辦那這件事情他不只是涉及到個人的操守也破錄出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞那我請問一下就是維安人員他當初的他當天去的工作是幫總統"},{"start":15328.459,"end":15343.609,"text":"搜尋說有沒有哪裡有維安的問題哪裡有漏洞就它自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞因為它在裡面偷東西所以我想問一下國防部司法的部分那已經函送了那是司法的部分我在這裡我不討論但我要討論的是國安局我們在內部"},{"start":15347.612,"end":15366.414,"text":"裡面針對這件事情的紀律問題我們有沒有做出檢討檢討的內容檢討的方向以及後續的懲處未來的改善方法是什麼請您說明這部分跟委員說明一下第一個是他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦了那另外因為這一位請願他是由國防部縣指部支援到"},{"start":15366.934,"end":15393.437,"text":"本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘察的工作所以我們後來第一時間就解除他資源的職務那回到縣指部之後縣指部我沒有記錯的話他還立刻召開了人評會計量大過列優先汰除名單已經公布在案那我們國安局裡面也有擴大來進行這個案子的調查是不是只有一個情員資源的情員來涉案那跟委員報告後來還有兩位的情員也可能知情所以我們後來就是啟動我們的"},{"start":15394.818,"end":15400.701,"text":"知情的意思是說知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說這樣子對 因為我們在法律的研究認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種所以我們就啟動我們的相關的那兩位他的單位是在一樣是記憶兩大過六圍有限太子名單"},{"start":15417.15,"end":15434.673,"text":"而是我們特勤中心和相關的人員所屬國安局的特勤中心的人員對 我們特勤中心的人員所以我們一樣做內部的調查 高大調查處犯他是從縣執部那邊來支援的然後知情不報者是國安局特勤中心的人員所以我們就做完整的處理 而且移送"},{"start":15435.694,"end":15445.701,"text":"因為案情大概的狀況是這樣因為當事人可能還在走刑證、訴願以及司法的程序細節不需要我只希望說未來我們在整體的勤務安排還有整體的這一些教育跟訓練上面還是要強化這個紀律因為總統去的地方他當然是一些一般人去不到的地方"},{"start":15458.769,"end":15483.628,"text":"他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物那所謂的好東西那當然他是很容易都可以接觸到那我們今天要請這些特勤人員去是幫總統去檢查不是說哎呀有少好東西就順手牽羊喔這是一個非常糟糕的壞習慣所以希望國安局在之後這方面的相關的紀律我們一定要再嚴加看管好不好"},{"start":15484.048,"end":15496.482,"text":"委員提醒喔 因為在執行公務期間還有去佔有民間的財務那這當然是法律上不容許那我們才會不斷的擴大調查看有沒有案官人等 一併處理好的 謝謝謝委好 謝謝 接下來請黃建斌委員上台諮詢"},{"start":15515.278,"end":15537.676,"text":"謝謝主席我想沒有人喜歡戰爭 本席也希望世界和平 兩岸友好共存那這次正席會就是藉由意見交流 衝到兩岸友好的共榮的契機那中國大陸同時也公布對台灣的實相利多 例如恢復上海福建自由行食品輸入的解禁然後指甲師等等這些措施"},{"start":15538.837,"end":15552.765,"text":"那執政黨一直說這是國民黨跟共產黨的政治交易本期在強調其實沒有什麼叫政治交易我們只是打開交流的大門那現在大門打開了那中共也是隨便善意後續要怎麼做還是要回歸到兩岸的官方去來談"},{"start":15553.846,"end":15578.152,"text":"那昨天其實有媒體採訪台東的一個親農對這次政協會的看法他的回答很簡單他說我是想要養家糊口哪裡有市場就把農產品往哪裡賣他們不在乎政治的議題我所以希望也陸委會跟我們相關單位也能夠好好的跟中共大陸來談解決台東農產品銷售的問題讓農民可以活下去那我回到今天質詢的議題我們有請那個國安局局長請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":15583.032,"end":15604.78,"text":"好 謝謝主席 黃委員好局長好 局長 上個禮拜有跟您討論就是4月10號美伊停火談判的情況要求說國安局一定要確實掌握各項的變數那提供相關的訊息給各單位做提早的準備那很不幸美伊談判破局那川普說他在12號要表示他要封鎖赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":15605.62,"end":15620.136,"text":"那美軍也宣布說在美東時間13號的10點要針對進出伊朗港口所有海上交通實施封鎖但不阻礙來飛伊朗港口的船隻通過荷姆斯海峽的航行自由"},{"start":15620.777,"end":15642.835,"text":"那雖然說美軍表示他不會影響他國的船隻的航行但是是不是會影響石油的運輸還有待觀察那如果這個戰爭持續下去那絕對會影響我國的這個經濟所帶來的這個負面的影響那請國安局這邊也務必要確實掌握各項的情資讓我們行政院還有相關各部會能夠提早因應然後回復我國這個經濟能源的安全"},{"start":15643.536,"end":15656.472,"text":"有 這部分上次跟委員在交換意見委員有特別提醒那我也跟委員說明事實上過去這一段時間從2月28號美伊戰爭之後我們在跟國際情報交流的重點之一就是美伊戰爭情勢的一個變化"},{"start":15658.855,"end":15680.257,"text":"上禮拜跟委員還有媒體說明的時候也提到那美國政府現在的策略大概一方面是極限的施壓凋渡軍力來對伊朗施加相關的一個壓力那也跟以色列方面做非常縝密的軍事行動的協調那另一方面就是透過巴基斯坦來進行外交的磋商所以才會有委員所看到日前三方的一個談判的一個過程"},{"start":15681.198,"end":15700.352,"text":"那不過我覺得雙方事實上對於談判還是都蠻積極投入的那我會這樣的一個說明是因為美方派出來的談判團隊是陣容非常的堅強位階很高由副總統來帶隊那伊朗方面也是美方這邊大概有快兩三百人的談判團隊伊朗這邊有七十幾人的談判團隊由他們的國會議長帶外交部部長帶央行的行長那代表雙方是很願意去進行討論"},{"start":15707.677,"end":15727.713,"text":"只是雙方的一個基本的立場跟關切目前還沒有辦法完全聚焦包括伊朗能不能來生產濃縮鈾的這些原料那以及荷姆茲海峽後續是不是要開放以及可不可以收取通行費的問題也都還沒有具體的結論那另外對於伊朗要解除國際制裁的部分那美方也不願意在這個階段來讓步"},{"start":15728.914,"end":15755.774,"text":"所以我跟委員說明的是 他還是在一個過程當中那可能我們後續再看雙方磋商的一個變化以及美國在談判可能陷入僵局之下他的極限施壓手段有沒有來迫使伊朗做進一步的妥協好 謝謝局長非常詳細的說明 希望讓我們持續的關注會會 委員上次有提醒謝謝局長 接下來局長請休息接下來我想請國防部跟海委會一起上來培訓請國防部副部長還有海委會"},{"start":15763.788,"end":15777.012,"text":"9號跟10號金門沿海分別傳出中國籍的漁船入侵的消息那這兩個案件都是由海巡署來查緝海巡署請教副主委署長那海巡署目前查處的情況如何請簡短的說明就好"},{"start":15778.161,"end":15794.803,"text":"那艘船是因為那個海箱不好然後沒有細菌然後漂流到這個岸基那目前這個案子已經處理好了也就是對方放棄那個船然後以後我們用這個廢棄物的這個方法來做處理是"},{"start":15796.124,"end":15823.769,"text":"學長那個中國小型船隻或者是漁船入侵台灣海域已經不是單一事件那過去也發生過像2025年2024年都各別發生像中國人是搭乘橡皮艇從觀音海水域場上岸然後以及中國人民駕駛小艇從福州進入淡水河然後一直到他停靠在淡水碼頭才被民眾舉報那這些案件凸顯出我國針對這個小型漁船還有徵收的盲點那尤其是小型船隻他會藉由這個反"},{"start":15824.349,"end":15843.303,"text":"反雷達解的那個面積太小還有電磁波反射訊號太弱等等以及包括什麼海浪的這些干擾啊就是避開我們就是發現這不容易被我們我國的雷達所偵測到那也就是因為這樣穿過我國海岸的防線這不僅僅影響到我國海岸的安全"},{"start":15843.723,"end":15862.496,"text":"它更是侵害到我國的這個漁權那國安局今天包括也有指出這個弱點就是說針對這些必須建置科技化系統化的監偵系統然後也針對海上漁權海上的船隻的安全跟查緝那這個是海巡署有工作那本席今天看到海巡署有提到這個"},{"start":15863.357,"end":15879.315,"text":"要科正規劃籌建最先進雷達設備並導入AI智能自動判讀功能提升對小型目標之偵測跟辨識效能外也積極的規劃籌建紅外線影像系統及環島智慧型暗記監控系統"},{"start":15881.417,"end":15897.646,"text":"從2024年中國小型船隻入侵台灣本島以來已經快兩年那這段時間海巡署對於我們海洋防衛的弱點補強有哪些具體的成效還有殘棄的這個成效有哪些海巡署要花多久的時間可以建置完善我國海洋跟海岸巡防的工作簡單回答"},{"start":15898.567,"end":15915.048,"text":"跟委員報告那這種這種小案子發生以後我們除了在勤務上精進以外我們對雷達操作人員包括運用這些科技設備的人員我們有做一系列不斷的這個教育訓練那不斷的精進這些徵收技能另外對於雷達的運用"},{"start":15916.83,"end":15941.152,"text":"就現有的部分我們是持續在做優化那未來在那個國土防衛陣性的預算裡面就有編列我們這些優化的這些更高規格的這個雷達更高規格的紅外線跟更高規格的岸際監控系統那我們會在116年之前會全部建置完畢也就是目前對於徵收的效能會大幅度的這個優化"},{"start":15942.133,"end":15970.401,"text":"那我想未來對於這個小軍目標創案的問題我們會這一個會大幅度的減少讓海域更安全謝謝署長 署長 我要分析一下 請問您跟海軍的工作不一樣海軍他負責的是海上的作戰海巡是負責海域的執法那千萬不要因為這些防衛的漏洞影響到我國海上的安全跟漁民的權益那接下來我想要請教我們次長次長 我們在什麼樣的情況之下會打開AIS的訊號"},{"start":15972.901,"end":15987.029,"text":"市長簡單說明就好您是說什麼船隻在什麼情況之下軍艦會打開AIS的訊號我們請我們海軍參謀長回答喂好我是海軍參謀長參謀長你好參謀長軍艦基本上我們AIS是不開啟的不開啟不開啟他有沒有開啟的時候什麼情況他都不會開啟嗎不會"},{"start":15999.007,"end":16022.422,"text":"謝謝市長,我想軍艦的執行非常的特殊,因為你不開啟的原因是因為怕會洩漏行蹤,這是國防的安全問題,那你不開的話你要怎麼知道這是哪一種軍艦?我們是不是只有透過無人機或者是衛星混合合成的孔鏡雷達影像主動來證收,然後使用的是這樣子嗎?這是手段之一"},{"start":16023.243,"end":16037.584,"text":"那看起來我們手段其實也是很有限嘛就在這幾個方法對不對我們有很多多元的方法我們可以掌握解放軍的建設OK 謝謝三部長今天你報告公布有提到跟海巡署執行這個偵查有關的這個資料的互通那但共軍"},{"start":16038.806,"end":16054.915,"text":"海上的這個軍艦偵查應該是海軍負責吧那所以海委會主委管主委他PO這個海面態勢圖應該是國防部提供的那雖說過去我們會隱藏一些敏感的資料避免被共軍掌握到我國的偵訪的方式但"},{"start":16056.363,"end":16082.573,"text":"共軍他仍然可以透過我國既有的偵查武器去推敲你是怎麼進行那來進行這個反偵測的動作那國防部2024年其實我們2024年的時候有有一個改變中共解放軍進入台海周邊空域活動示意圖的公佈的圖資就是把那個共軍我們查到共軍的機型啊飛行的軌跡啊船艦的資料都給他去除那甚至在我們這個相關的影像上在進行重製"},{"start":16083.433,"end":16103.125,"text":"目的是為什麼就是我們要避免共軍會從這些資料裡面探測出我軍可能的徵收方式嘛那從中間獲得這個武器的參數的資料來演算出我反反制你的方法嘛是這樣子對不對 是這樣子沒錯對不對是不是這個意思 是 能不能回答委員好 我是情報次長次長是不是這樣子剛剛您所講的"},{"start":16105.902,"end":16119.532,"text":"大部分都是對的我們要做這些示意的圖主要的目的是一方面要滿足民眾知的權利另外一方面我們還是要兼顧到勤資的來源還有一些徵收的手段的機密性"},{"start":16121.033,"end":16147.991,"text":"其實本席非常支持適當的公佈我國周邊沿海空域的偵查資料我們同時也要恪恪我們要恪指周邊的國家你不要做違法的事情但是是不是要需要到詳細到連船艦的號碼選號都公佈我覺得這個都可以再斟酌啦應該是採取風險較小的方式來進行會比較好畢竟現在電子偵查的技術日新月異如果你相關的武器參數被敵軍掌握"},{"start":16151.373,"end":16179.074,"text":"反制的這個措施我覺得這對台灣的國防也不是好事情那這方面我是也請國安局國防部跟海巡署務必也做好這相關的這些防範措施我們不要因為這個急功耗力因小失大讓台灣安全產生黑洞嘛那另外最後我利用一點時間就是要跟海巡署反映一件事情就是組長台東有漁民來跟本席反映說有外縣市搭載大陸漁工的漁船在台東台東12海里內的範圍來捕魚"},{"start":16180.655,"end":16197.121,"text":"那這個部分我們也要請海巡署同仁多加留意然後查證倘若有這樣的事情也請海巡單位務必嚴格的查緝這些不肖的船隻然後維護這些守法於民的這些權益蘇緝武好沒問題我們會查證好謝謝署長謝謝是謝主席謝謝"},{"start":16204.349,"end":16210.532,"text":"接下來請賴士寶 賴士寶 賴士寶委員不在 請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢阿主席 在下黨委員先進 列席政府專屬黨官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國防部徐副部長及海軍司令部朱參謀長和海委會張副主委兼我們海巡署的署長"},{"start":16233.126,"end":16234.19,"text":"請以上人員就被尋臺 謝謝"},{"start":16238.402,"end":16262.853,"text":"副主委好副部長好副主委好來引向加持無人艇應對海上滋擾無人艇建案訓練戰備足夠並行先請教副主委我國政府下一頁我國政府網路三個月照清老1.7億次那這裡面我們看到了什麼包括不只這個官方有什麼中共來的是戰機跟海警船灰色地帶有漁船相比艇網路滋擾人員受到等等等"},{"start":16263.893,"end":16271.4,"text":"請問一下我們副主委,除了攻擊擾台、海警船等官方手段,漁船橡皮艇、網路威脅,這個您覺得是不是也很嚴重?工委報案,這是值得關注的問題。好,所以我們今天都在關心。來,下一頁。我們小型船艇的入侵難偵測,用SAR還是用影像觀測?小型橡皮艇,雷達難偵測,暗記雷達很難,看到那麼小的。"},{"start":16288.636,"end":16306.63,"text":"高度目標體積又小漁船的話它可能關閉或AIS對不對所以難以查獲又可以製造假象又可以隱匿行蹤所以說我們海巡很吃重啊要靠你們海巡還有燈檢可是燈檢的皮膚分泌船隻老化請問一下有沒有更高效的應對方式譬如用SAR核心恐怖型雷達還是用影像觀測"},{"start":16307.651,"end":16325.465,"text":"副主任你怎麼看剛委員提到的都是方法之一另外我們現在用高科技的無人機部分也是一個方法之一另外我們優化我們的所有零二氰針針的相關設備也可以徵收到相關的設備可以建設建議你們除了無人機之外還有什麼無人艇來往下看"},{"start":16325.985,"end":16348.821,"text":"之前我跟您海巡都有建議過無人艇的運作模式無人艇的好處它不會累它可以在待命模式然後出去執行任務然後它還可以返航那這時候很重要的我們都知道目前的無人載具自動巡標自主導控很重要那就無人艇來講要訓練它就要影像識別要日間的夜間的這需要高階鏡面需要紅外線這個大概是無人艇的運作模式往下看"},{"start":16350.322,"end":16371.67,"text":"如果是搭配海軍也有這種做法比如說我們無人艇搭配無人機自動巡航那麼像這個辨識目標後它就接近驅離那如果以海巡來講我們主要是驅離哪些環節你覺得如果用無人艇來協助海巡對這些不明船舶或灰色滋擾您覺得有哪些地方可以加強的"},{"start":16372.622,"end":16393.617,"text":"我非常佩服委員 委員也經常提供先進的資訊給我我這邊特別要回答委員海巡組在這次特別任性條例裡面有編列了一筆預算也就是專門做水面的溫庭跟水下的溫宅局部分另外在空中的部分也都是並行在一起來處理"},{"start":16395.098,"end":16415.821,"text":"這三者來聯合起來就可以做成三維的立體的聯合性真正的部分那另外無人艇主要的好處就是它自來時間很長然後也可以維護我們人員在服務群上安全另外對於風險高風險的這些船舶譬如說是這個可疑的船舶那我們用無人艇先去先徵收然後也可以保護我們人員的安全是的"},{"start":16416.221,"end":16433.209,"text":"所以吳仁廷出任務可以透過AI加持他需要影像資料來加以訓練因為影像辨識跟自動尋標你要AI是自動化辨識需要大量的影像要有模型訓練要準確還能識破偽裝請問海巡組要如何取得大量的海上平面影像資料庫"},{"start":16435.356,"end":16455.556,"text":"除了我們平常聯合情爭爭以外還有國防部跟友軍提供的這些資訊以外另外我們從空中的這個偵搜的也可以做到很好 你講到空中那我們來看一下往下看跟蹤跟追蹤是不太一樣的文人挺訓練學校的影像呢如果說今天我們透過高空的偵蹤像瑞恩二行"},{"start":16456.337,"end":16474.64,"text":"上面往下俯瞰這時候看到的是一樣是一種資料但是無人艇如果它要自主導控它需要的是什麼它需要的是水平的圖像不然的話你要在瑞淵上面告訴你來船在哪裡 船在哪裡因為你分不出誰是誰所以呢無人艇它是需要水平的還是需要垂直的影像"},{"start":16476.249,"end":16495.252,"text":"水平水平很好所以目前我就往下走了好 那個水平影像我們給你一個參考的例子大家有聽過Google的街景車對不對它在隨著道路這樣走它可以把這個都市的3D影像測會出來但是也有人說那個計程車滿街跑啊"},{"start":16496.193,"end":16501.539,"text":"計程車上面有那個行車記錄器啊如果要知道的不是道路周邊的建築是道路上的車輛的話搞不好計程車上面的行車記錄器就會成為影像的取得來源您覺得如果以這兩個做比喻"},{"start":16511.21,"end":16515.892,"text":"您覺得未來海上的平面影像是要透過專屬的配置的船艦去取得還是可以用一些其他的作業的船隻幫我們順便取得海面上我們的手臂海域上相關的影像船舶的影像"},{"start":16527.711,"end":16555.347,"text":"跟尾巴這兩個都是方法之一那其實如果是針對特定的標的特定的地方特定我們還是建議用那個有目的性的專屬的船艦那另外如果廣域的部分這個部分我們有很多的方式譬如說我們的漁船譬如說我們其他在航的艦船艇還有其他的商務員都可以從事也幫我們做這件事情所以我知道從高空的影像現在影像資料庫有得買"},{"start":16556.192,"end":16571.97,"text":"但是那是很多國家他們通過衛星大量收集的但是我們海巡巡弋的防衛我們不用到歐洲 不用到北海我們就台灣附近的海域這個海域的空間有限我們集中取得這水平的影像資料這個我們請海巡去研究一下好 再往下走"},{"start":16573.972,"end":16596.632,"text":"那麼請教一下其實除了無人艇除了海巡之外的軍方也在可以使用我們看一下如果以FAA無人機跟無人艇來看的話大概無人機跟無人艇在我們軍事上的使用大概有幾個不一樣無人機是一次性的而且訓練都損耗很高無人艇就算他有攻擊型他在沒有攻擊後他還是可以平安返航無人機比較困難"},{"start":16598.055,"end":16619.671,"text":"無人機的迭代更新很快無人艇的迭代更新沒那麼快所以基本上我們無人機會用買的但是無人艇的部分其實有一種可能就是租賃無人艇應用場景多元是否應該全部買到我請問副部長您看法呢您覺得未來軍方在建置無人機跟無人艇它的一個取得的方式有沒有不同"},{"start":16622.129,"end":16647.85,"text":"現在的確如委員所講這個無人機不只FPV啦它這個因為疊帶有針尖型的不同的是的確是它的那個疊帶更新的確是很快所以我們像我們特別預算的話我們是逐年它都要改變標準分批逐年買對 一定要這樣子但是無人艇的基本上我來往下看其實無人艇呢我們就以永英高校機跟主力戰機來看好了我們的永英高校機我們是自製的"},{"start":16648.951,"end":16677.453,"text":"他的推力 相關的性能雖然較主力 但是消遣一點但最大的差別他的上面的電子偵控的電控系統呢他比較沒有那麼先進因為訓練的時候你不需要直接雷達射控都OK但是呢 如果我們用無人艇來說今天如果我們國家建置無人艇的一個部隊假設要一千艘那你要先什麼 先訓練人員嘛那這時候有沒有考慮過先要有一個用教育訓練為主的無人艇"},{"start":16679.175,"end":16692.613,"text":"用租賃的方式來提供給海軍包括說我們海軍有專長訓練中心無人機跟無人艇差別在無人機如果訓練不好掉下來就砸了無人艇不會但是無人艇要維修所以無人艇的艦軍"},{"start":16694.736,"end":16712.53,"text":"除了我們一線作戰用的軍備要用購買的之外有沒有可能考慮用本土來建立我們訓練就像永硬一樣用這種方式來用租賃的方式提供售後服務還可以迭代更新的方式來作為我們海軍建置我們無人艇部隊的一個方法我可不可以請海軍三分長回覆來 請"},{"start":16717.286,"end":16740.376,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們訓練的這個部分我們那個無人艇因為我們主要的目的是用來供洗所以就算要租賃的話也必須要廠商願意去產製那個跟我們自殺型無人艇一模一樣的艇才有辦法做我們訓練使用所以說永英跟我們的主力戰機難道不能相容嗎"},{"start":16741.701,"end":16748.482,"text":"對不對 所以我們空軍用無人 泳鷹 泳鷹做高校機它如果正在戰爭的時候 它裝上了最先進的射控雷達它裝上了武裝 它也是一個戰機啊所以無人艇它在 我只是說在無人艇因為它好處是什麼它訓練的時候的損耗跟無人機是不同的它浮在水上嘛 操作失誤也不會全毀嘛所以是請海軍思考一下未來我們海軍在建設無人艇建軍的時候除了購買先進 最先進的這種自殺性的無人艇"},{"start":16771.027,"end":16771.73,"text":"它有很好的反干扰很好的增光"},{"start":16775.694,"end":16799.471,"text":"一個控制設備,很好的電子反制設備之外那麼在訓練的時候不需要開這個嘛訓練的時候我們就需要它會操作它會,因為它會自主導航那麼這種情況之下是不是海軍在建置無人艇部隊的時候也應該參考空軍的主力戰機的方式自主研發我們本土型的類似永鷹的這樣的高校機讓我們的海軍的人才培訓可以跟著它使用的器材與時俱進可以嗎?對"},{"start":16801.232,"end":16802.013,"text":"請國防部就吳仁健您財固模式是我居足夠併行的可能提出說明報告可以嗎"},{"start":16825.245,"end":16841.597,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝委員指示好 那在最後一點時間在上週我們在場的召委我們的陳召委他舉辦了一個海上防衛無人論壇我去聽了一點小段我覺得非常的精彩內容非常豐富不曉得我們國防部有沒有請人去參考有沒有有沒有人請人去收集那邊的意見好像沒有受邀建議你們不是受邀沒有受邀要主動去關心瞭解如果你們有人去收集這些相關的意見"},{"start":16855.068,"end":16867.096,"text":"我是持肯定開放的態度我覺得這個論壇辦得非常好如果國安部有去多收集民間的聲音也可以參考如果你們參考的就讀還不夠你也可以提供給我一份讓我來參考一下可以嗎"},{"start":16868.919,"end":16888.373,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個 朝委不好意思我講錯了 我講錯了有來有來是不是因為我不知道 不好意思不好意思OK 有有有有來啦齁那如果你們那個報告除了內參濟民的部分以外的部分可以給我們也參考一下因為我覺得辦得很好我們希望未來我們國家建軍防衛的方向應該是軍民各方面重複來進行好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":16901.123,"end":16910.63,"text":"接下來請洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在請洪玉祥 洪玉祥 洪玉祥委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":16930.643,"end":16952.162,"text":"好 謝謝主席 李委員好局長辛苦了 那這個行政會剛結束了然後這個國台辦就釋出了這個所謂的十大的這個利多的一個措施 會台的措施那包含我們這個局長你也提到這個它有這個三層意義那核心的宣示就是台海河根站由北京說了算"},{"start":16952.842,"end":16964.871,"text":"然後呢 這個陸委會這邊也有提到就是說中共將兩岸的交流武器化 工具化然後呢 政治目的化那我想請教一下這個局長剛好這個"},{"start":16969.226,"end":16994.048,"text":"這個我想北京也是有用心就是在這個可能在川習會五月川習會之前先提前辦了這個所謂的習政會那我想請教一下局長這個所謂的十大會台措施然後包含這個習政會那這個會不會影響到說這個五月份這個舉辦這個川習會的時候中共藉由拉攏台灣的反對黨"},{"start":16995.063,"end":17003.586,"text":"然後呢又藉由釋出這個十大的這個所謂的會台的措施那會不會這個中共試圖想要營造一個說那"},{"start":17004.059,"end":17030.329,"text":"反正這個台海的問題就是一個中國內政的問題然後現在跟台灣也處得還不錯然後希望美國不用賣這麼多武器給台灣有沒有想要營造類似的這種效果事實上早上在跟媒體朋友說明的時候也大概是用這個觀點來切入因為就管局來講我們比較重視的還是中共對台的統戰跟策略操作的手法"},{"start":17030.769,"end":17060.175,"text":"那特別在說明的是這一次利用跟國內在野黨的交流那有看到在戰略面確實去凸顯在台海的核或戰的議題上那北京是有主導權的那以這樣的一個論述跟敘事來排除外力介入台海的情勢那另外也操作到在野黨可能對於北京傳統的對台政策立場的一個呼應來增加北京後續在川習會過程當中去處理到涉台議題的一些政治操作的手法"},{"start":17061.296,"end":17079.395,"text":"那這個部分也是我早上跟媒體朋友在說明的一個重點那所以說 因為現在我們的軍購的特別條例也不知道這個何時會審查因為冷凍期是到4月底 可能也到5月份了然後也不知道說5月份能不能如期的審查"},{"start":17080.897,"end":17098.514,"text":"這個請教一下局長那你認為說在川習會之前那對於這一個第一個在台灣就是說我不知道軍工特別條例能不能順利審查那第二個會不會影響到說您的評估會不會影響到說下一波川普這個有可能再賣第二批的武器給台灣"},{"start":17099.972,"end":17126.497,"text":"對 大概在這部分跟委員簡單說明一下那就在川習會的過程當中我們當然不能夠排除那中共可能會在涉台議題上去提到對美軍購的這個議題那不過也跟委員做報告的是就我們所了解的一個狀況那在美國跟中國互動過程當中只要涉及到所謂台美軍購議題的話那美方的闡述立場事實上非常的明確那認為這是美國一貫的一個政策"},{"start":17126.937,"end":17142.678,"text":"所以可能在川習會過程當中不能排除在這議題上會有一些各自表述或交鋒的一個過程那就我們的理解美國在對台政策它還是有一個延續性的那這部分我能不能再請我們國防部我們徐副部長來做一個說明"},{"start":17145.003,"end":17161.94,"text":"市委好我剛剛請教這一個蔡局長的問題您剛剛有聽到嗎是您最後一個問題是就是說啊就是說因為這個川習會在五月嘛那不曉得會不會影響到未來如果有第二批這個美方有在賣武器給台灣的話會不會影響到這個進程"},{"start":17163.854,"end":17188.914,"text":"當然我們現在跟美方還是溝通是順暢的到目前為止美方給我們的訊息我是指戰爭部給我們的訊息就是一切仍然如常進行目前還沒有受到這個沒有受到進一步其他的那也有可能就是說不管這個國內在野黨跟中國是怎樣的互動那美方跟台灣的關係也不會受到影響"},{"start":17190.149,"end":17208.025,"text":"我們跟戰爭部的這個溝通是順暢那既有的那些已經國會知會的那些目前那個保證信函都已經拿到了然後目前都是順暢至於未來的我們也問過那戰爭部的立場是應該仍然會照常進行這是戰爭部的立場"},{"start":17212.489,"end":17234.361,"text":"好 謝謝徐副部長那請回到 接下來我請這個陸委會兩副主委那局長 還是繼續請教您因為這個所謂的十個措施裡面有一樣是所謂的共用廈門的這個祥安的機場我想請問一下這個局長這個所謂共用這個廈門的機場它的意義是什麼"},{"start":17235.515,"end":17249.369,"text":"這部分事實上中共官方在跟我們外離島的相關的互動過程當中都有在宣傳這一點也就是祥安機場因為今年年底可能要完成它的興建那中共提出來的一個"},{"start":17250.35,"end":17275.152,"text":"策略跟說法是認為說那祥安機場是國際機場那願意提供給台灣民眾特別是外地島的民眾同等的待遇可以盡量來使用祥安機場當成出國的一個機場那這樣的一個宣傳論述不是這一次才提到的事實上在過去這快一年的時間應該都有在談那第二個角度他們在宣傳的是祥安機場會開設很多的特殊的這種攤位"},{"start":17277.174,"end":17299.632,"text":"或店面那也歡迎我們的外離島民眾去申請租用所以它是有一套我們認為是對外離島統戰的一些宣傳的敘事在這一次的十項提議裡面有一個背後的一個圖像在這裡因為我更關心它是不是涉及到這個主權跟安全的問題那如果說祥安機場"},{"start":17300.475,"end":17322.347,"text":"那台灣的,比如說金門的居民,就是說你可以先到祥安機場,然後再回到金門,那會不會讓外界就認為說,那這個就是一個中國啦?就是說你就是在中國內部的同一個機場這樣繞來繞去?中國希望操作就是能夠有這樣的一個意向,確實它是往這方面在操作。那在安全這方面咧?"},{"start":17323.038,"end":17343.275,"text":"那安全的方面可能兩岸不管是未來祥安機場完成之後它的一些航線或是空域的管制可能還是要循跟我們政府的一個溝通的管道來進行必要的協調來避免產生這種可能飛航安全的問題那因為飛航安全它不應該是涉及到政治的雙方應該要好好來溝通討論"},{"start":17346.557,"end":17374.298,"text":"那這部分我再請教梁副主委就是涉及到說他們有特別提到說共用廈門機場那一樣我關心的是這個台灣主權跟安全的問題對所謂的共用就是他們現在就如同局長這樣講的就是說他們鼓勵或是號召廈門居民金門居民他以後可以不用再飛到桃園機場去出國他可以到祥安區長去走國際線"},{"start":17375.959,"end":17399.836,"text":"他們現在的主要宣傳是這樣但是我們比較考慮的是另外一個問題就是空域重疊的問題也就是說金門上義機場跟那個祥安機場是非常的近幾乎空域是可以重疊的但是當然如果說雙方有一個協調的話就是說在高度上面其實是可以在高度上面做協調的"},{"start":17401.597,"end":17412.593,"text":"雖然空域近但是因為高度可以有容受的空間是蠻大的所以這個部分我們希望說在安全上面這個才是我們主要的考慮"},{"start":17413.834,"end":17441.166,"text":"那到目前為止到目前為止我們的立場是這樣就是說上億機場它是先存在的一個機場那祥安機場他們是後來才興建的機場所以後來在國際上來講的話就是說後來興建的機場它在航線或是飛安高度上面等等它必須要尊重原來既有存在的機場這是我們的立場那我就是說再去轉位講就是說如果"},{"start":17442.066,"end":17452.843,"text":"金門的居民經由這個祥陽機場出入境沒有需要經過這個國境的檢查因為就從那邊出去了那我就以我想到的主權問題國際社會不會認為說台灣已經接受這個中國實質行政的管轄"},{"start":17458.016,"end":17484.159,"text":"對 在外離島民眾的出國的他的選擇那當然是民眾可以做這樣的選擇那也像委員所講的中共在政治操作上他就可以做這樣的一個操作所以他們一直在強調是同等待遇也就是認為說我們外離島民眾那跟中國大陸的民眾可以同等的來使用這個機場的權利那這是他的政治宣傳的操作對啊 因為我們出國是指從這一個"},{"start":17485.1,"end":17503.311,"text":"台灣出去嘛 出去其他的國家但是他們的出國是變成說你中國是同一個國家同一個國家出去那不一樣耶對這個要注意啦那那個剛剛那個安全的部分我再問一下最後再問一下兩副主委就是說因為你剛才講說金門機場是先於這個廈門機場那如果說我們這個未來啦未來放棄了這一個就是說未來這個"},{"start":17512.254,"end":17520.267,"text":"調度啦 空域的調度是由中方統一調度的話那是不是也會形成說我們也放棄了金門上空的這個航管的主權"},{"start":17521.024,"end":17542.965,"text":"我們不會由中方統一調度中方調度他們的我們調度我們的基本上不會有問題對 基本上不會有問題但是雙方必須要有一個默契就是說當雙方在航管上面它有一個高度的差要有一個高度的差異要出來它高度的差異出來的話它基本上安全上面就不會有問題但是如果說高度的差異沒出來"},{"start":17544.066,"end":17572.816,"text":"那當然就是這個會發生一些問題那目前為止這部分都還沒有討論到目前為止我想我們的立場就是對方要尊重先存在的機場那這個雙方要有一個默契謝謝局長 謝謝副主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請徐富奎委員 徐富奎 徐富奎委員不在請陳冠廷 趙偉上台質詢"},{"start":17590.905,"end":17594.66,"text":"我們先請陸委會請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":17608.094,"end":17622.314,"text":"副主委好今天稍早我們看到新聞裡面有提到巴西的駐台的代表他有提到說台灣是中國的一部分那不僅如此他說你們的鄭麗文主席不也是這麼說的嗎一次"},{"start":17622.794,"end":17648.07,"text":"作為藉口在媒體面前做出這樣子的表示外交部已經正式來去做嚴肅的抗議我想請教副主委對此有什麼看法要不要藉此機會也表達我國政府的看法這個就是我們所擔心的一些後果的其中之一可能對外國人來講他"},{"start":17650.554,"end":17664.188,"text":"他會看到說你們台灣最大在野黨在這個問題上面到底是什麼立場那對於中共來講如果能夠讓台灣最大在野黨能夠說出台灣問題是中國內政問題然後"},{"start":17668.431,"end":17687.6,"text":"不要讓外國人介入等等那個在政治上面就是非常非常大的勝利那所以他會對國際社會造成一個很錯誤的訊息那如果剛剛委員剛剛講的巴西代表這個事情我是沒看到新聞但如果有這樣的事情的話那就是"},{"start":17689.478,"end":17711.089,"text":"這個影響已經發生了影響已經發生了所以我剛剛一直講說所謂的什麼十項會台措施這十項會台措施基本上就是新平包舊酒而且總的算起來其實對台灣來說它的你說實質上的物質上的利益其實也不大"},{"start":17711.849,"end":17728.354,"text":"但是他所換得的卻是一個重大的宣傳勝利和統戰上面的勝利那這個對於台灣的國家生存是有重大影響的謝謝謝謝副主委我們請關局局長請局長"},{"start":17737.153,"end":17749.088,"text":"有沒有消息指出會不會他們用同樣的外交敘事模式跟這些傳統的金磚國家開始結成這樣子的情報的方式透過輿論來影響台灣的國際定位"},{"start":17751.752,"end":17780.637,"text":"我們有在注意也有在統整到底中共接觸哪一些國家那大概我們的關注重點有幾個面向第一個是哪些國家有跟中共在所謂的社中一中框架敘事配合到中共的立場這大概第一個面向第二面向是他們敘事的切入點是什麼那有的像今天早上委員提到的巴西他認為說台灣是中國的一部分那有的是他含蓄的表述他尊重所謂的一中原則或是各自的一中政策那有的表述是反對台獨"},{"start":17781.357,"end":17805.276,"text":"有的表述是引述到所謂2758號決議那其實有各種不同的作法那你知道一中原則跟一中政策歐洲國家有自己的一中政策那遵從一中原則的通常就是南南國家就是沙哈拉沙漠以南的國家或者是東南亞這些目前在開發中或者是比較未開發的國家那中國很常利用這種反殖民那種各種的"},{"start":17806.136,"end":17827.611,"text":"這種敘事模式來去促成他們這樣子的能量所以我剛才講的金鐘山各國我們要密切的注意哪幾個國家包含巴西南北俄羅斯特別是俄羅斯我們就不用多說了這些國家確實會有同樣的敘事模式包含這一次鄭麗文訪中的時候他特別提到日本的這個殖民的部分那也是同樣的同樣的一個敘事模式但是我必須要強調一件事情"},{"start":17828.351,"end":17849.836,"text":"德國日本過去在軍國主義專制主義之下他們對歐洲以及亞洲造成了巨大傷害我們都深在其中我們都理解這是錯的但也因此德國走向了民主的道路也因此日本放棄了軍國主義走向融入民主的道路那是文明的道路那是經濟改革之後的政治改革"},{"start":17850.276,"end":17874.58,"text":"同時我們也呼籲中國特別是中國在二三十年四五十年的這種高經濟成長之後他們的經濟成長確實是有很大的成就確實是讓很多人脫貧但他們需要的是政治改革就如同日本跟德國一樣如果不要造成區域的這種緊張的局勢升高如果他們要追求的是整體的國家的影響力增高首先他們要放棄武力犯台"},{"start":17875.14,"end":17903.299,"text":"我們都知道說任何的軍事干預會導致區域大國的整體的國力來衰退尤其是台灣海峽台灣海峽它必須扮演的這種航運運輸的角色是極端重要的傷害台灣同時也在傷害中國事實上傷害台灣就是在傷害整個印太地區這個是完全沒有一個人可以脫離的就連伊朗的這個戰爭它對我們世界的另外一端台灣 日本 韓國甚至菲律賓都緊急狀態"},{"start":17905.341,"end":17911.513,"text":"作戰戰爭是中國絕對不可以採取的做法我想我們對外的敘事也必須要思考要什麼樣的外交敘事"},{"start":17912.765,"end":17938.744,"text":"是要用憤怒的外交敘事還是有智慧的方式讓他們知道說我們跟他們不太一樣應該是說完全不一樣我正因為完全不同不代表說這就不能夠有對話我們還是鼓勵對話但是以實力作為基礎的對話那才是有效的對話沒有實力基礎的話你帶回來的是一張紙這張紙隨時都可以撕破就如同1930年代英國的前首相他說他帶回來這個時代的和平的隔年之後"},{"start":17939.845,"end":17959.708,"text":"二戰就全部的席捲歐洲只有實力才能夠達成和平只有國防的能量才能達成和平只有國防的能量加上對話才能達成和平缺一不可所以對於國民黨或者是在野黨想要跟中國對話我的態度也是一樣可以建立在國防自主"},{"start":17960.228,"end":17976.401,"text":"建立在國防的能力之上所以我們還是呼籲接下來我們的國防的特別條例裡面有許多就是像我們今天講的我們的海洋偵測等等的都必須要具備那這是我們的論述我也希望大家可以仔細思考一下是要每次只強調價值"},{"start":17977.802,"end":18005.126,"text":"或者是每次只強調利益台灣的價值跟台灣的利益到底是什麼要把它結合起來那這樣子的話我們在國際上面才會有說服力不要像過去這個就外交部斷交很多國家之後那一樣同樣一套那同樣一套證明沒有用新的做法包含新的外交部長他們就有他們新的做法出來了這其實都是可以做審閱都可以去思考的謝謝謝謝局長我們接下來請這一個國防部跟海委會"},{"start":18006.587,"end":18027.504,"text":"請國防部海委會委員好副部長好副部長這個剛才有幾位委員有提到說我們在識別這個船隻的這個狀況了那有些是當然是漁業署海委會可能會用AIS或者是VMS嘛那國防部有不同的系統我們這樣講這樣理解對不對"},{"start":18031.344,"end":18036.067,"text":"我們的雷達系統跟海巡是不一樣但是我們彼此分享雷型"},{"start":18060.704,"end":18073.483,"text":"是那在這樣的狀況之下我們到底要怎麼樣辨別目標物而且是特別我們今天有提到的報告物前面提到的這些目標非常的小那我怎麼知道我們看到它了那它是我們的還是對方的我們怎麼如何去知道"},{"start":18077.293,"end":18093.003,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們對於海上目標掌握除了剛剛講的這幾個系統BMS IAS這些以外還有國防部提供的電偵措的所有的這些配套通通是納到我們這一個聯合勤捐針的範圍裡面聯合勤捐針不小心把友軍當成是對方的"},{"start":18096.38,"end":18117.773,"text":"另外這個對於小型目標的判別部分我們有幾個評估的標準第一個部分就是它是直接往這邊衝 航速超過我們的這個判斷標準另外一個部分它是不是直接衝案 另外一個部分它是從哪邊過來然後它過來以後它是朝哪個方向 這個都是我們的判別"},{"start":18122.134,"end":18145.579,"text":"這是我們判別的一個標準就算是不管是衛星也好或者是雷達也好或者是各種的監測體系我們必須要長時間不斷的堆疊你才能夠判別它的方向跟它的意圖嘛但是衛星的這個監測的時間有其局限性我們現在有沒有把這個東西克服了"},{"start":18147.201,"end":18170.641,"text":"跟委員報告,就是微光衛星影像部門,我們要大量的去採購相關的衛星的這個影像另外要建立長期要建立資料庫,如果這個目標進來以後我們沒有去識別,它在我們列達上面的顯示是沒有意義的所以要透過人工,透過相關的這些AI去判別說它對我是不是危險目標,我們再去做後續的做處理"},{"start":18171.201,"end":18188.8,"text":"那另外一部分的時候假設首先我們是做判別去做對目標的監測那有些時候可能不是對方做這樣子的做法可能也是我方 我們可能是友軍喔但是在友軍的部分我們現在有沒有完成去衝突化去衝突化的這個互操作性特別是對美國"},{"start":18189.821,"end":18216.96,"text":"我必須強調上次我們在開論壇的時候這些前海軍少將蒙哥馬利就有提到說台美的互相的這個操作區是糟透了他提到說這會導致無人載具沒有辦法有效識別而產生有軍的誤擊有軍的這種可能性的災難他說不僅僅是無人載具包含這個即時的就是說在我們的可能是我們的既得監跟對方的這個驅逐區他說他們要建立這種秘密通訊的話"},{"start":18218.061,"end":18236.346,"text":"如果是跟澳洲是完全整合的幾乎是可以及時的跟日韓數十分鐘可是跟台灣還要一兩天我必須要強調說我們現在想的所有的能力的獲得武器的獲得能力的獲得等等它是需要時間並且需要資金甚至是特別預算"},{"start":18237.186,"end":18252.397,"text":"但是這不是我們能夠我此時此刻我沒有辦法完全控制我必須還要說服在野黨但我們現在能夠控制的就是怎麼樣增強互相的可操作性那當然過去因為台灣的特殊的國際地位那美國可能會比較但是"},{"start":18257.46,"end":18284.61,"text":"現在此時不比以往了台灣的國際地位在增加台美之間的國際合作在增加是不是要思考首先從去衝突化到更好的整合讓台美之間的船舶也好或者是這些軍機軍艦全部都把它放在裡面能夠先從去衝突化開始再往上走這個是不是我們可以做的是不是請副部長可以簡單是謝謝委員的指教我們會往這個方向來努力盡快好吧因為"},{"start":18286.403,"end":18307.608,"text":"衝突可能是在明天 可能是在今天那如果沒有一個實現的話這個副隊長最近常去美國我想這個比任何武器的獲得都還要重要就是首先能夠確定敵我之間的這個去衝突的話跟友軍之間的這個秘密通訊的這個速度要提升這個應該是很具體的目標 好不好是好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":18315.094,"end":18342.432,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有徐富奎委員、洪玉祥委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內以書面答覆委員有指定期限者從其鎖定另外也請國防部提供"},{"start":18345.855,"end":18357.866,"text":"中科院在吳彥廷的部分我們現在的初步的成果請提出書面資料那本日會議到此結束三會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}