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病案審查委員吳宗憲等十八人擬居"},{"start":1679.418,"end":1701.413,"text":"民法第1223條條文修正草案等二十案二審查委員吳宗憲等18人拟據民法繼承編釋行法增進增訂第12條條文草案案本次會議有委員吳宗憲等12人提出質詢委員蔡其昌張志倫提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二民法第1223條條文修正草案等二十案"},{"start":1701.953,"end":1720.185,"text":"進行逐條審查第1223條保留送院會處理本案審查環境拟據審查報告提請院會公決須交由黨團協商院會討論時由文務召集委員小林出席說明三民法基層編釋刑法增訂第12條條文草案進行逐條審查增訂第12條保留送院會處理"},{"start":1721.025,"end":1735.194,"text":"本案審查完畢 擬繼續審查報告提請院會公決須交由黨團協商院會討論時 由我們召集委員小林出席說明四 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1742.145,"end":1769.431,"text":"好謝謝那麼接下來我就先介紹今天的到場委員以及應邀列席的官員首先先介紹在場的委員我們有洪孟楷委員王玉明委員王洪威委員還有陳昭志委員好謝謝另外我們今天這個列席的官員有法務部的常務次長馮次長司法院習事廳的許承州許廳長"},{"start":1771.187,"end":1779.207,"text":"還有民視廳的林俊廷 林廳長好 那其他沒有介紹的官員我們就列入記錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":1782.216,"end":1806.939,"text":"那本次議程討論事項共計排定四案分別為並案審查的貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案共計六案還有第二案就是繼續並案審查中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案共計二十九案第三案並案審查中華民國施刑法增訂第八條之三條文草案"},{"start":1807.399,"end":1832.616,"text":"共計16案第4案是併案審查民法第197條條文修正草案共計3案那麼因為我們第二案就是27到29案以及第三案15 16案經過向議事處詢問目前尚未收到各黨團簽署的不附議同意書所以依開會通知單所在就不予審查"},{"start":1839.093,"end":1843.455,"text":"那麼我們現在就先進行委員的提案說明那麼我們就依照到場的順序來每位發言時間三分鐘原則上我們今天因為有兩案所以一案的發言時間是三分鐘為限那如果說有兩個案子要同時提案說明的話那就麻煩請控制在四分鐘以內"},{"start":1859.224,"end":1874.857,"text":"完成好那麼我們接下來呢我們就依照委員到場的順序來進行提案說明首先我們先請第一位的陳昭芝委員來進行提案說明台灣民眾黨的黨團代表陳昭芝委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":1880.107,"end":1897.334,"text":"謝謝主席我代表台灣民眾黨黨團針對新法第80條的修正草案進行提案說明那本次修法的這個核心重點非常簡單但是也非常迫切就是為了讓未成年人遭受性侵害的時候不再因為時間的限制而失去了追求正義的機會"},{"start":1898.815,"end":1919.044,"text":"未成年人遭受性侵害的時候 往往處於相對的弱勢地位 權力不對等的一個關係未成年的被害人 常常因為他的年齡 他的知識 他的生長環境 心理狀態等等根本就沒有能力 更不敢對加害者提出刑事的告訴他們甚至因為恐懼或羞愧而未能在第一時間鼓起勇氣來站出來面對"},{"start":1922.013,"end":1927.6,"text":"這絕對不是個案 而是長期存在的問題因為根據法務部的統計從2015年到2024年之間因為追訴時效完成而無法起訴的性侵害案件高達248件"},{"start":1937.512,"end":1939.573,"text":"而且數字逐年攀升這代表什麼呢這個代表有數百位的受害者在他們願意鼓起勇氣面對的那一刻法律卻已經將他們前往人生希望之門的那道希望之光的那扇門關掉了"},{"start":1954.62,"end":1981.354,"text":"如果我們堅持時效必須從犯罪成立之日起算對那些在黑暗中等待長大的孩子們而言無疑是二次傷害那現行的中華民國刑法第八十條規定追溯權的時效是從犯罪成立之日起算那麼對於未成年人性侵害性侵被害人而言這樣的設計事實上是等同懲罰被害人而不是加害人"},{"start":1982.074,"end":2003.006,"text":"因此台灣民眾黨黨團針對這個刑法第八十條條文提出了修正草案我們參考了性騷擾防治法第十四條第二項有關未成年被害人與性騷擾案件提取申訴時效之特別規定我們也參考了性侵害犯罪防治法的第二條有關性侵害犯罪之定義明確的規定"},{"start":2005.507,"end":2012.433,"text":"對於未成年人犯性侵害犯罪者其追溯權之時效自被害人成年之日起算對未成年人性侵犯"},{"start":2017.455,"end":2037.911,"text":"犯了性侵犯的犯罪者其罪處懸的時效自被害人成年之日起算這不只是單純的條文修正更是補足制度上的漏洞回應被害人的真實的處境並表達我們對兒少保護的一個堅定的立場捍衛公平正義跟重視生命價值我們選擇保障"},{"start":2039.972,"end":2067.488,"text":"被害人權益而不是放任制度去造成被害人一輩子的身心受創守護未成年的受害者讓正義有機會發生讓傷害不再被時間掩蓋這就是我們提出修法的目的我也希望各位同事各位行政機關代表能夠支持刑法第八十條的修正草案修補法律的漏洞給未成年性侵害被害人一個遲來正義的修正草案謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":2070.197,"end":2083.889,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員因為我們現在委員在場的人數已經夠了所以我們由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定所以現在我們就先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2086.394,"end":2115.055,"text":"好 沒有的話 那麼我們就議事錄確定那接下來呢 我跟各位先報告一下就是接下來的提案說明的順序緊接著第二位是王玉明委員然後第三位是洪孟凱委員第四位是本席翁小玲然後第五位是王宏威委員第六位接下來是王振旭委員然後第七位是林思明委員然後第八位是張雅玲委員好 那接下來先請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":2119.005,"end":2145.847,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天我們要修正刑法第八十條之一條文這是一個非常重要的條文大家都知道這個未成年遭受到強制性的性侵這是非常嚴重的事情對他們身心都造成難以抹滅的傷害但是現在在實務上只要過了這個追溯期這些受到傷害的孩子他們的正義"},{"start":2148.369,"end":2157.579,"text":"完全沒有辦法被伸張所以今天本席提出來的修法就是要來解決這樣子的一個困境喔還給受害的這一些未成年人該有的司法正義"},{"start":2163.465,"end":2185.978,"text":"那我的版本主要是希望這個在第八十條之一明定對未成年人犯下各類妨礙性自主罪包含了對未成年使用暴力脅迫的強制性交利用對方年幼的猥褻行為以及利用私生親屬等權利關係或欺騙手段發生的性侵害行為"},{"start":2186.858,"end":2206.753,"text":"加害人將不再適用現行追溯時效的規範也就是如果你對未成年人做出這一些不當的性侵害的行為這個追溯期是沒有這個時效20年的時效它是沒有上限的可以一直追溯"},{"start":2207.253,"end":2232.491,"text":"只要受害的當事人他敢把這件事情講出來希望司法還給他正義的時候我們國家的司法就應該要追溯到底喔這個是我的版本那現在行政院提出來的版本他是等成年以後再去算20年但是民間團體也已經講了如果是這樣的算法的話如果是2006年這個發生的案子"},{"start":2235.433,"end":2262.464,"text":"恐怕在我們現在通過的法令裡面也得不到追溯期這個是既然我們要修法我認為不可以再出現有類似這樣的一個漏洞既然要還給這些孩子他當時在未成年所受到的傷害應有的正義那現在行政院這個版本恐怕是有漏洞的沒有辦法完全補足這樣的一個缺口所以我希望在這個法條討論的時候"},{"start":2264.705,"end":2289.275,"text":"行政院應該要針對你們現在所提出的這個修法版本民間團體已經指出來這個漏洞還是會有一些人2006年以前如果發生的案子恐怕就完全被排除在外那這樣的正義也不是完全的正義這個是現在民間團體也已經看出來行政院版本所存在的漏洞所以本席認為我提出來的這個版本"},{"start":2290.655,"end":2301.703,"text":"是可以完全回復這些未成年人他們所受到的傷害與正義那也敬請大院各位委員大家共同來支持修法通過 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2312.987,"end":2339.262,"text":"主席各位在場同仁感謝大家我想今天主席特別排案我們針對本席所提案的刑法80條以及83條的提案來說說明喔也感謝剛剛主秘提醒其實本席是我們這29個委員提案裡面第一個提出來但不管是我們在2024年4月這一屆一開始的時候就先提出或是我們眾多委員大家共同關心以及行政院來做修法的草案"},{"start":2339.702,"end":2359.534,"text":"也已經先通過其實核心目的只有一個就是我們要補足現行法令的不足而現行法令在追溯其對於兒少性侵被害者保護不足的漏洞一定要在這個會期讓它給填補完畢因為過去到現在我們看到已經太多的一個真實個案"},{"start":2360.835,"end":2385.135,"text":"兒童或是少年在少年期間未成年期間受到性侵的時候往往他有可能是全是性侵家屬性侵或者是說有熟人性侵的一個情況而這樣的一個情況在他未成年之前很可能他是沒有辦法開口沒有能力開口或是不知道怎麼開口也因此我們不能讓現行的追溯期變成是一個緊箍咒綁住讓"},{"start":2387.037,"end":2400.508,"text":"未成年的被害者他在被性侵的時候而造成因為追溯期的時間而當他真的想開口真的想為自己以及社會大眾找回公道的時候卻發覺追溯期已過"},{"start":2401.738,"end":2427.923,"text":"所以我想在這個前提之下我們不分朝野藍綠我們共同要把這個漏洞給補齊最重要的就是我們不要再有憾事發生開宗明義當然對於任何人的性侵都不應該但如果說有人敢在中華民國犯罪我們也一定要讓被害者知道中華民國政府以及我們相關的法令是能夠保障你讓你隨時想要"},{"start":2428.983,"end":2443.58,"text":"對於你的加害者提出必要的法律訴訟以及必要的司法來保障你的一個權益也因此本席所提出來的80條跟83條的共同修法重點其實就是"},{"start":2443.72,"end":2465.272,"text":"明確排除被害者成年前期間對於追溯期期效的限制並且不再完全建立在犯罪史後發生的客觀點而是能夠合理回應兒少被害者何時真正具備認知自主以及程序參與能力的現實再來提出我們希望透過這次的修法一方面"},{"start":2466.332,"end":2491.768,"text":"再一次的強調任何人都不應該在中華民國我們國土境內犯罪另外一方面也避免法律宣示保護兒少卻在需要制度支持的時候讓追溯期先行耗盡而導致於保護落空還是再次感謝主席我們希望在這個會期裡面我們共同努力讓這個會期能夠三讀通過真真正正回應民意感謝大家"},{"start":2503.902,"end":2507.105,"text":"現在我們有請翁曉琳委員做提案說明謝謝主席本席今天待會有兩個提案說明那麼首先我先針對貪污治罪條例第12條條文修正草案進行說明我們知道去年這個曾經發生過一件就台北市一名清潔隊員將殘職指示"},{"start":2527.081,"end":2541.636,"text":"32元但仍然堪用的回收電鍋呢就轉送給一位拾荒的老婦人那麼沒想到呢竟然被認為她是一個侵占職務上持有財物而依照貪污治罪條例罪嫌起訴那這個案例其實引發了社會高度的關注"},{"start":2542.156,"end":2544.717,"text":"這個本案雖然後來經過法院法官絞盡腦汁努力的檢刑但是仍然判處了三個月有期徒刑緩刑兩年並且褫奪公權一年當然我想這絕對不是首件小額貪污的案件"},{"start":2557.563,"end":2563.466,"text":"其實在過往的數十年裡面我們不時會看到類似的案件譬如說曾經有警官因為虛報加班時數一領加班費而遭只有兩千多塊的事情而遭貪污治罪條例起訴判刑一年十個月緩刑三年"},{"start":2573.692,"end":2587.944,"text":"也曾经有位将军因为他招待他同袍弟兄的眷属吃饭用了军方的加菜金2800多块支付餐饮费用也是被依照贪污秩序条例所起诉那判处徒刑四年六个月退休分因此被腰斩那这些"},{"start":2591.047,"end":2594.73,"text":"案例都引起輿論的嘩然那我想這些案件其實凸顯出現行的貪污自罪條例的規範設計不當的問題也就是它不能夠去區分重大的貪腐以及情節輕微的小額貪污案件導致罪責與刑度是顯不相當已經違反了罪行相當原則"},{"start":2610.402,"end":2613.483,"text":"所以有出現這種秦清法重或是小罪重罰的問題那與國民的法律情感呢也有巨大的落差那麼我們知道現在的貪污自罪條例的本意其實是在嚴懲貪污雖然說他"},{"start":2625.629,"end":2628.69,"text":"希望原產貪污還有維護聯能的政治然而現行制度對於像這種小額貪污情節輕微的案件卻缺乏足夠的彈性因此本次修法是主張希望能夠在維持現在5萬元以下的維額門檻的前提之下能夠將現行的減輕期刑再修正為減輕或免除期刑"},{"start":2649.717,"end":2666.502,"text":"將一個原本僵硬的制度重新拉回理性與人性之間的平衡讓法院能夠在面對主觀意圖客觀損害輕微的案件的時候可以選擇免刑讓刑法能夠真正回歸到最後的手段"},{"start":2667.799,"end":2695.904,"text":"最後本席要再次強調本次的修正案絕對不是放寬貪污而是我們要讓法律更精準這不是在縱容違法的小貪而是要讓處罰更符合責任法律的力量不是在於它的嚴厲而是更在於它的分寸當法律過於僵硬它可能傷害的不只是違法者更是整體社會對於正義的信任我有合情合理有溫度的法律"},{"start":2696.344,"end":2707.41,"text":"方能真正實現社會正義所以還請委員們支持本項的修法那最後呢我還要再針對刑法第八十條的追溯權的提案修法再進行一個非常簡短的說明簡單來說就是其實"},{"start":2710.629,"end":2738.688,"text":"在过去19年我们看到我们台湾已经有超过成千的这个被害人他们即使选择进入司法程序但是仍然是因为追诉时效届满而遭不起诉换句话说他们不是没有证据而是没有勇气不是没有勇气而是没有时间所以呢在现行的刑法第80条里面的这个规定呢事实上并不是很合理那么尤其是对于被害人而言他时间经过了"},{"start":2738.968,"end":2752.916,"text":"他不見得代表他有能力可以行使權力所以在這一次本次的這個修法的核心非常明確我們就主張對於未滿18歲被害人的性侵案件在成年之前追溯時效應該要暫停計算並且從年滿18歲後重新起算那這項修正並不是要無限"},{"start":2760.02,"end":2760.2,"text":"謝謝翁委員"},{"start":2795.54,"end":2824.281,"text":"我们接下来有请王洪威委员发言好谢谢主席以及与会的官员和委员们我今天是主要针对我们贪污治罪条例第12条还有我们刑法第80条的条文修正我一并来做这个提案说明刚才我们欧晓琳委员特别提到了在104年的时候"},{"start":2825.662,"end":2837.22,"text":"當時曾經有在陸軍花東防衛指揮部的參謀長行政室因為他們違反加菜金相關的規定所以他們是被"},{"start":2839.407,"end":2855.385,"text":"触犯贪污治罪条例还有陆海空军刑法及刑法那当然这个案子当时也得到很多社会大众的大家的同情那么当时在社会大众的一个声音之下"},{"start":2856.346,"end":2883.578,"text":"蔡英文總統後來在2022年的4月份對這個案子決定特赦那這個案子當時在社會旗幟引起廣泛的討論但是後來也是如同剛才翁小玲委員所提到的也就是台北市清潔隊員她把一個回收的就電鍋送出去那麼一樣的就判她這個一審有罪"},{"start":2884.438,"end":2908.597,"text":"那雖然當時整個的社會的氛圍也是對他非常同情而且有關於修法的聲浪就開始在整個的社會上引起了非常多的討論而且也有很多人希望總統也能夠針對這個案子來做特赦所以在短短的幾年之間這兩個案子讓社會"},{"start":2911.9,"end":2936.901,"text":"民間團體還有讓我們的立法院去省思是不是我們現行的貪污治罪條例對於這些違罪是不是太過的嚴苛而且重點是我們也希望有限的司法檢調的人力應該放在追訴更嚴重的案子上而不是這些違罪結果引起社會很大的反彈"},{"start":2937.702,"end":2941.344,"text":"所以在這邊也提出相關的修正最重要的就是把這個條文可以改為減輕或免除期刑這讓法官他在量刑的時候他有一個選擇這絕對不是輕放貪污他這邊是讓我們的法官能夠有一個選擇"},{"start":2960.336,"end":2981.687,"text":"那另外在刑法第80條的部分剛才我們的很多委員也講得非常的清楚所以我這邊主要也是參考像奧地利的刑法日本刑事訴訟法相關的規範明定性侵害等犯罪成立日至被害人滿20歲以前所經過的期間不計入追訴權時效的期間"},{"start":2987.509,"end":3002.295,"text":"這個就是如同我們剛才很多委員所提到的希望讓像這種兒少被受到侵害的他那個時候可能他不了解或者他沒有去做追溯可是"},{"start":3003.115,"end":3026.822,"text":"持來的正義終究是正義所以我們經過這樣的修法能夠讓這些被害人能夠得到在法律上能夠得到更多的關照以及讓他們有機會可以透過這樣的修法能夠真正的去討回他們的公道所以在這邊有關於判污自罪條例第12條跟刑法第80條條文也希望"},{"start":3030.183,"end":3036.313,"text":"好 包含我們的行政部門以及我們各黨派的委員都能夠與你支持 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們再請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":3056.612,"end":3075.757,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席 各位同仁與這個與會機關的官員兒少性侵害是我們社會必須正式的沉痛的問題本案修正刑法第80條考量創傷復原需要更長的社會支持我們以20歲作為門檻"},{"start":3077.597,"end":3089.548,"text":"主張被害人滿20歲以前追溯權時效不記錄確保被害人在擁有完全獨立人格後 能有完整的時效期間尋求救濟"},{"start":3091.089,"end":3099.177,"text":"澳洲皇家委員會經過長達5年的巡查聘請超過700位員工耗時超過澳幣3.4億、約新台幣70多億元在2017年12月份發表了總計17卷的最終報告"},{"start":3108.365,"end":3124.394,"text":"這個報告依據6875位倖存者的經歷進行分析從最終報告得知多個重點其中之一就是倖存者平均要花24年才能所次說出受害的經歷"},{"start":3125.334,"end":3145.696,"text":"根據外務部統計2024年性侵害的案件被害人一共有9230人其中未滿18歲的兒少為4793人佔比超過一半 到達51.92%所以性侵害具有高度的隱蔽性兒少被害人常因為身心未成熟與加害者之間的權益不對等"},{"start":3146.457,"end":3162.359,"text":"不理解法律的權利而無法及時的得到救助這包括三個重點第一個權力不對等的鎖鏈在未成年受害者案件當中有五分之一19.6%為家內的性侵而其中加害人為其直系親屬者"},{"start":3163.681,"end":3183.374,"text":"占到45.7%也就是說本應該對被害人負有保護義務的父母或祖父母被害人往往要等到經濟完全獨立甚至脫離原生家庭以後才有能力來處理這份的創傷第二點就是醫學上的創傷反應兒少被害人常出現壓抑或解離的機制"},{"start":3184.255,"end":3198.9,"text":"大腦為了生存會封存記憶導致他們無法在現行的追溯期裡面追溯第三點就是認知與污名而是要在案發的時候常常缺乏辨識權益受損的能力加上社會對性的污名化"},{"start":3200.1,"end":3218.605,"text":"讓揭露之路變得極其漫長在台灣當這些孩子成年終於有勇氣開口的時候現行法律卻告訴他們時效過了這不是正義這是立法制度上的失能目前憲法法庭正在處理相中關於溯及既往的法律爭議我表達支持的立場"},{"start":3219.845,"end":3246.875,"text":"並尊重憲法法庭最終的決定但在此之前今天我們要處理的修正案就是為了要補足當年司法的失誤目前行政院及我提出的20歲起算只是正義的及格限甚至是最低的目標法律不應該是加害人的保護傘讓這些帶著秘密長大的孩子給他們有足夠的時間再長出足夠的面對的力量的時候不要被司法拋棄請大家一起來支持謝謝"},{"start":3249.244,"end":3253.872,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們就請林思敏委員發言"},{"start":3263.203,"end":3284.95,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我今天非常感謝主席今天針對我們社會大家非常關注的《通知條例》第12條以及《刑法》80條的修正案今天特別來排審我想我針對這兩個提案也做了兩個版本的修正"},{"start":3286.05,"end":3309.108,"text":"我針對《貪污治罪條例》第12條的修正草案我想我的版本跟大家比較不一樣我特別提出說明我想《貪污治罪條例》的立法目的在於嚴懲貪污、澄清勵志在司法實務上對於利用職務的機會榨取或領得小額財物的案件我們一律納入重罪的體系處理"},{"start":3310.569,"end":3335.781,"text":"致使部分案件在社會觀感以及法律的評價上出現失衡的情形凸顯我們現行制度於適用上的爭議與不足也違反我們人民的法律感情我想我們現行貪污治罪條例的規範架構對於情節輕微或圖得財務不正利益金額在新台幣五萬元以下的案件"},{"start":3337.001,"end":3363.128,"text":"實務上仍可能適用高額的法定刑度雖設有相關的減刑規定但僅屬良刑的調整並未改變其適用貪污秩序條例重罪架構的一個本質對於情節輕微的案件仍難以達到真正的分流與合理主義的一個效果整體刑責結構仍偏重"},{"start":3365.009,"end":3386.158,"text":"我們導致事務上已見基層或者廣義的公務員因涉入小額的不正利益卻遭受到重罪論處的情形造成小罪重罰與輕輕罰重的現象這顯然與比例原則以及罪行相當原則未竟相符亦有偏離本條例立法原則的"},{"start":3387.537,"end":3406.567,"text":"的這個本意所以有檢討修正的必要以使我們的法制更趨合理與橫貧所以刑法與貪污治罪條例與圖利詐欺侵占等犯罪類型上存有競合的關係依特別法又依普通法的原則據公源身份者"},{"start":3409.025,"end":3426.975,"text":"一旦涉案,通常優先是用貪污罪罪條例來處罰然然現行規範為救工人員的層級、權責範圍及行為輕重加以區分導致不同嚴正程度的行為均可能面臨相同嚴厲的法律評價、欠缺彈性及細緻性"},{"start":3428.596,"end":3450.079,"text":"我本次修正其針對現行條文犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或所圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者減輕其行為調整修正為犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣"},{"start":3451.221,"end":3475.802,"text":"5萬元以下者依刑法內的罪名來處罰以符合我們情節輕微且經而在5萬元以下的案件自貪污治療條例中來處罪避免小額的犯罪行為遭過度的刑法評價來提升法治的公平性落實比例原則與罪行相當的原則"},{"start":3477.043,"end":3492.845,"text":"改善現行制度情形法重的問題使我們的法律適用更真合理所以我希望郭委員能夠支持另外針對刑法80條的修正這個草案我想剛才很多委員也提出了我想我們鑑於現行制度"},{"start":3493.706,"end":3511.8,"text":"刑事案件的追溯權從犯罪成立時起算並依犯罪的情節輕重是有不同的時效期間但是對於未成年的被害人而言在其受性侵或者猥褻的行為當下往往因為年齡上誘"},{"start":3513.394,"end":3537.753,"text":"認知不足無法立即辨識其自身權益遭受到侵害或因為畏懼加害人的權勢所以他沒有辦法立即的求助或報案事實上也常見被害人於成年後只有能力釐清過往的一個創傷並尋求法律的救濟但這個時候卻已經逾越追訴的時效致使案件無法進入司法的成立"},{"start":3538.873,"end":3566.756,"text":"這個司法的審理程序嚴重影響我們司法正義的這個實現所以我們這一次呢就增訂了提案八十條第三項明定對於未成年人所犯的特定性侵及猥褻相關犯罪稅數全實下的計算與被害人未滿二十歲之前不予記錄我想這個也是都是大家共同的意見也希望各位委員還有我們行政部門能夠大家及時廣益"},{"start":3567.617,"end":3576.738,"text":"共同來支持這些提案以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來我們就請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":3589.231,"end":3614.612,"text":"謝謝主席那我想今天就是針對刑法第八十條關於最授權的時效呢原則上是從犯罪時候的時候開始起算但是對於許多未成年的兒少受害者呢這樣子的規定非常的不合理也沒有反映兒少性侵的這些被害案件的特殊性因為我想大家都非常清楚的知道兒少在當下受害的當下他其實沒有足夠的能力去了解自己到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":3615.333,"end":3644.343,"text":"也不一定有能力來去立刻的求助甚至報案或是進入司法程序因為最關鍵的原因是什麼是因為我們許多的兒少他面對的加害人都是他認識的人可能是他的家人是他的老師或是他相信的人所以在這樣子的狀況之下他常常是因為害怕他因為也不知道該怎麼求助甚至他可能在那個年紀還沒有辦法辨識自己已經受到侵害了"},{"start":3645.379,"end":3664.308,"text":"所以呢他等到他長大稍微有一點點覺得自己好像有點怪怪的時候呢他面對的又不只是要不要報案這麼單純的一件事情他還要面對的是說他講出來這件事情人家會不會相信他人家會不會覺得他的證據力不夠"},{"start":3665.228,"end":3688.413,"text":"等等等等的原因而造成他在這件事情上面會更加的擔心更加的恐懼那也延遲了整個這個報案的時間揭露的時間所以呢等到他有能力面對創傷整理經驗然後決定站出來說出來他的經驗的時候呢他又會遇到什麼他會遇到說我們的法律案是用"},{"start":3689.053,"end":3716.665,"text":"班案件的時間在計算所以就會讓這樣子一個非常脆弱在一個非常艱難處境的被害人他就會被排除在司法救濟之外所以這次的修法重點就是希望針對這些未成年的兒上受害人來調整他的追溯權計算追溯權時效的計算方式讓被害人在成年以前的那段時間不列入追溯權的時效"},{"start":3717.285,"end":3731.155,"text":"在制度中也加入對兒少被害案件特殊處境的理解讓我們的法律更貼近現實也更能夠保護這一些被害人特別是我們的兒少受害者 謝謝好 謝謝蔣委員那麼我們接下來就進行機關報告那麼麻煩請每位機關代表報告時間就以三分鐘為限好 那我們首先先有請法務部的馮次長"},{"start":3752.396,"end":3779.749,"text":"感謝主席還有各位委員並案審查本部主管的法規這次並案審查共分三大部分分別是貪污自罪條例第12條條文的修正草案及刑法施行法的第8條之一第8條之二第8條之三的修正草案第三個部分是民法第197條條文的修正草案197條之一的條文草案等相關的議題來向各位委員報告"},{"start":3780.953,"end":3807.466,"text":"那有關於貪污自罪條例第十二條條文的修正草案那針對社會各界都有注意到這個小額貪污的案件這個輕輕法重的問題本部也高度的重視那在已經拟據了貪污自罪條例部分條文的修正草案目前是呈報行政院審查中那關於五萬元以下的輕微案件草案第十二條第一項有增訂"},{"start":3808.146,"end":3820.363,"text":"得免除其刑的規定那依刑法第66條但書規定其所受有其徒刑之減輕得減至三分之二那獲法院可以就具體的個案為免刑的判決"},{"start":3821.448,"end":3839.656,"text":"那就各位委員提案的修法目的本部都競表贊同那請就各委員版的細節來進一步做說明首先在林倩琦委員王歐委員跟翁曉琳委員所提的草案與本部索尼的草案同樣都是增訂"},{"start":3840.416,"end":3857.166,"text":"得免除其刑的規定那這個部分本部都正面的看待第二個部分在賴瑞龍委員所提的草案文字用語雖然跟本部的草案有一點不同但是法律效果是相同有沒有必要另行明定具體的檢刑幅度這個部分也見請斟酌"},{"start":3858.647,"end":3886.486,"text":"那第三個在蔡易瑜委員所提的草案有細分金額的層次層級限制只有一萬元以下的部分才能免行恐過於聚焦單一良形的因素那一萬至五萬之間的個案之間仍然可能會出現一些勤勤罰重的困境那是不是有設立雙層的金額門檻的一個必要呢這個部分也請再斟酌那再來是林思敏委員所提的草案"},{"start":3887.366,"end":3910.935,"text":"提議將小額貪污案件全面的一個回歸刑法的論處那當然貪污自罪條例第四條至第六條的罪和刑法上的罪名事實上也不一定能夠完全精準的去應對那如果沒有通盤的去檢討刑法的規定就有可能會造成適用上的疑義甚至造成規範上的漏洞所以這一個部分也見請審慎的評估"},{"start":3912.956,"end":3935.071,"text":"那再來就是有關於刑法還有刑法施刑法修正草案這部分是針對延長兒少性侵害犯罪被害人的追訴權的實效的以及處理新舊法如何適用的問題鑑於未成年人性侵害犯罪被害人因為案發的時間身心發展其實尚未成熟沒有辦法充分理解法律上的這個權利"},{"start":3936.292,"end":3952.471,"text":"故這個追溯權的部分有特別的規定那這個部分上我們本部的那個說明都已經詳細說明了那民法第197條跟197條之一的部分對於各委員提案修正延長未成年人性自主受侵害"},{"start":3953.011,"end":3970.55,"text":"損害賠償請求權的消滅時效的修正方向跟精神本部也競表贊同那消滅時效的修正已有整體性的一個政策避免零星的個別修法造成的一個混亂那目前呢我們也都已經徵詢了中央機關地方政府跟全國律師聯合會的意見"},{"start":3972.532,"end":3993.961,"text":"然後在整理各界的意見中我們會盡速的完成草案的研議後來做法案的宣告那非常感謝大案審查上開的法案並於過程中給予我們非常多的寶貴的意見並期待盡速的完成修法的程序維護社會公義保障人民的權益 以上謝謝好 謝謝馮次長的報告那接下來我們再請司法院的許廳長"},{"start":4001.511,"end":4023.427,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天貴院司法及法治委員會全體委員會議並案審查四大主題共54案本院奉邀列席報告深感榮幸本院也非常重視此次的審議因此民事廳刑事廳廳長均列席報告我先就刑事部分簡要報告如下第一首先關於貪污自罪條例部分"},{"start":4024.908,"end":4047.354,"text":"我們認同這個委員這個有關這個使這個輕微的罪行符合罪行相當的修法意旨但關於這個私用上可能產生疑義想藉此指明首先關於委員賴瑞榮等20人拟據的這個修正草案那本條第一項是法律效果呢它規定這個得遣金期刑至期刑之三分之一或免除期刑部分"},{"start":4047.834,"end":4064.414,"text":"那這個部分如果這個依照一般的立法體例是不是可以再為得減刑或免除其刑那依刑法第66條去設定其減刑幅度這部分見請斟酌第二 關於委員林思明等17人擬拒貪污制裁條例第12條修正草案部分"},{"start":4064.834,"end":4093.619,"text":"那這個部分我們也肯定林思明委員關於想要把這個違罪部分回歸刑法適用那這個撇除特別刑法肥大化的現象這樣的用心但關於這個因以刑法本文之罪名論處這個部分在刑法的適用上可能有明確性的疑義這部分呢建請在這個說明欄再加以續名或舉例那其餘關於貪污之罪條例部分本院尊重全責機關及大院之審議及決定第二關於中華民國刑法部分的修正案"},{"start":4094.139,"end":4115.309,"text":"我們也同樣肯定各位委員保障未成年性侵被害人訴訟權的立法意旨我也想就適用上的一些問題可能的問題予以就教各位委員第一關於委員洪孟凱等21人拟據的草案這一條草案是修正中華民國刑法第83條"},{"start":4116.69,"end":4134.472,"text":"那83條這個第二項第四款所在有充分認識有意願及能力這些概念是希望能夠作為時效停止原因視為消滅之室友但他認定上可能有模糊的空間那第二關於王玉敏委員等21人你據之80條之1的條文草案那這一條立法原意是要避免這個"},{"start":4135.914,"end":4152.739,"text":"為成年信心悲哀人成年之後時有能力提起訴訟但是追訴權已消滅這一個情形那如果是這樣的話似乎可以採取成年前不進入追訴權時效期間是規範模式不完全排除追訴權時效規定是適用這個部分敬請斟酌第二 關於委員範圍"},{"start":4155.26,"end":4173.766,"text":"等22人委員李坤澤等17人委員李坤誠等21人所擬拒之刑法第80條條文修正草案部分那這一個部分本條第三項所列罪名並未列舉所有這個妨礙性自主罪名其範圍小於兩院會嫌版這個部分是不是有所遺漏或刻意的予以不依規定請再確認"},{"start":4175.006,"end":4189.955,"text":"再來關於委員郭玉琴等16人拟據這83條條文修正草案他同樣也有這個洪孟楷等21人所拟據條文的問題那另外關於這個部分也請斟酌關於王美惠等18人等這個關於83條修正"},{"start":4191.696,"end":4216.423,"text":"草案部分這個部分也可能有漏載部分的情況也請斟酌那在關於陳素月委員等擬拒之八十條修正草案他這個條文規定對十八歲以下之人這個部分呢漸行改為未滿十八歲之人以符合這個未成年之未成年人保護之意旨因為十八歲以下拒含本數包括十八歲再來關於委員翁小玲等十七人擬拒之八十條修正案"},{"start":4217.303,"end":4240.248,"text":"這個部分呢立法理由的部分這個有提及性騷案件但是本條的第三項所列罪名並不包含性騷而防治法之罪說明欄這個部分是否有所誤載也請確認再來關於委員林思明等20人你據之刑法80條條文修正案這個部分是不是有遺漏了刑法第224條之一的加重強制猥褻罪或是有意排除請予確認"},{"start":4240.928,"end":4263.217,"text":"那其餘關於這個八十條及八十三條部分本院尊重權責機關及大院之審議及決定那另外關於中華民國刑法施行法部分那黃婕委員等十九人林月琴等二十一人所擬據這個相關的八條之三的修正草案部分明定追溯權已完成者也適用修正後之規定那這個是學理上所謂的真正溯潔既往那這一種"},{"start":4263.957,"end":4282.697,"text":"真正溯及記網的規定有違法安定性原則在我國的立法體力上還沒有這種把人民基本權干預程度最大的刑罰效果也採用這種真正溯及記網的這種立法那本條說明欄所引司法院釋字793號解釋它也不涉及刑罰效果那縱使這個"},{"start":4284.258,"end":4307.541,"text":"刑法八十條第一項第一款徵定涉及法醫保護最高的生命法醫也直採不徵證溯及計謀那這部分請也請斟酌那其一部分本院尊重權責機關及大院之審議及決定那以上報告那如果民法部分我們如果還有時間是不是也容我們民視廳的這一個廳長來做報告好那就請那個民視廳廳長也是很快三分鐘好麻煩"},{"start":4311.85,"end":4327.33,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位縣長榮幸代表本院民事廳來報告有關民法各委員有關民法的修正案首先要跟各位委員說明的是說本院高度贊同各位委員要強化"},{"start":4328.351,"end":4351.285,"text":"未成年子女民事請求權的這一個立法政策方向那以下所提出來的只是單純針對修正條文的草案可能在未來試用上可能產生的疑義稍微做一點見解的釐清首先針對王玉民委員18人凝聚的197條的這個修正草案部分"},{"start":4352.225,"end":4374.197,"text":"我們的本院第一個意見是說要消滅時效完全這個草案完全排除時效的限制這個在立法例上是比較罕見的因為他會極端案例可能80歲到90歲這個是不是妥適見請斟酌另外第二點針對性侵害其他妨礙性自主行為這個具體概念在定義上可能要在於釐清"},{"start":4375.697,"end":4393.205,"text":"那關於王世堅等16位委員所提取的民法197條之一的條文查案那本院的第一點跟第二點意見跟剛才有關王玉明委員所提案的第二點意見大同小異也就是說對於性侵害"},{"start":4394.205,"end":4416.213,"text":"這一個內容他到底是包括性自主單純的刑法性自主或結合犯那有沒有包括性騷擾或兒童少年性剝削條例的這些特殊犯罪那另外關於說性騷擾是不是要完全等同性侵害犯罪一律適用所謂的20年的消滅時效有沒有輕重失衡這個也見請在座那第三點"},{"start":4417.933,"end":4444.382,"text":"針對這一個提案要從未成年從成年後才起算下面時效這個部分本院是認為說應該要再釐清兩種狀況因為剛才有很多委員都提到有一些是屬於家屬親密之人所謂的親愛那這個時候從未成年成年起算這個是比較有正當性但是在某一些案例因為這個法定代理人本身他就已經自習他也可以行使這個權利"},{"start":4445.442,"end":4462.774,"text":"那如果這個時候讓未成年從未成年成年後才起算那前面的法定代言的請求權要怎麼辦這會產生一些適用上的矛盾那針對第三個這個陳樹業委員等16人凝聚民法197條之一的鎮定案"},{"start":4464.856,"end":4488.175,"text":"這個第一個部分本院的意見是說本草案把民事跟刑事的追訴權時效跟消滅時效完全等同這個可能有一點疑義因為民事跟刑事的追訴權時效在概念上跟目的上都不太一樣譬如說刑事他有獨立告訴權民事沒有民事法定代言就是代這個被害人他是只有一個請求權"},{"start":4489.056,"end":4505.184,"text":"那另外刑事告訴權是限制國家來刑事偵審但是民事它是如果它只是個抗辯權也不太一樣那還有刑事來講它只有停止的室友民事比較複雜還有中斷不完整然後那個太陽非常復彈"},{"start":4506.184,"end":4532.662,"text":"那第二個第三點第二項有關陳委員的第二點跟第三點的意見就跟之前王世堅委員等提案第二點跟第三點的意見一樣本院不在最初那最後因為法務部目前正在修正民法消滅時效的規定有關消滅時效的長短計算時間涉及民法整體體系平衡那是不是尊重法務部權責託處以上"},{"start":4537.162,"end":4560.712,"text":"好 謝謝那麼其餘的練習機關有沒有要口頭補充的如果沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告就完畢相關書面內容就請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那我們現在就開始進行詢答那麼由於詢答後還會繼續進行法案的審查所以一例我們本會委員詢答時間為六分鐘那麼必要時可以延長兩分鐘"},{"start":4561.872,"end":4574.877,"text":"非本會委員尋答的時間就為4分鐘並且不再延長那麼首先另外就上午10點30分我們就截止發言登記我們先請登記第一位的陳昭志委員進行尋答謝謝謝謝主席有請馮次長好請馮次長"},{"start":4587.558,"end":4608.568,"text":"市長這兩張截圖是來自法務部調查局和內政部的警政署的通緝犯的查詢系統那涉及88會館地下會對案的林秉文他在2024年的時候棄保潛逃了潛逃期間他還可以玩臉書PO文大家都很好奇這麼高調的通緝犯那背後到底是有多大的靠山在挺呢"},{"start":4609.648,"end":4634.349,"text":"但是這個調查局的系統上面寫的說可能潛逃的地點是洛杉磯我先請教次長通常法務部是如何去判斷可能潛逃的地點跟委員報告其實我們所屬的這個調查局或廉政署或者他們在偵辦案件之中他們會依照他們的權責去處理那法務部在個案上不會去做這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":4637.028,"end":4651.614,"text":"所以您不知道是怎麼樣去判斷他的潛逃力就是說我們在那個檢查機關裡面會針對這個個案的一個狀況來做不同的一個好 次長 那我就繼續講就是說我相信所有人都看到今年3月下旬這一堆新聞"},{"start":4652.594,"end":4657.057,"text":"那標題不外乎是洗錢教父林秉文在柬埔寨身中了29槍後身亡那臉孔還被這個砍到面目全非由於他背後牽扯的這個太多黨政人士了而且關係複雜牽涉無數的高官跟顯貴那並且他犯刑他的犯刑涉及巨大的金流因為他號稱這個林百億"},{"start":4675.811,"end":4690.006,"text":"但是他中槍身亡 臉部被砍到面目全非之後 先前所涉及的詐欺 洗錢案這些罪行人事物最後都可能一筆勾銷 會去公訴不受理 撤銷通緝所以我要請教次長 在這樣的狀況下 這則訊息林秉文死亡 他的真實性是否變得很重要呢"},{"start":4698.784,"end":4722.182,"text":"跟委員報告 當然我們法務部的這個政策他對死亡真實性是不是很重要非常重要非常重要 那次長林秉文在通緝期間高調的PO文那檢調依舊找不到人那以為他在美國逃亡嘛 剛剛跟檢調的這個資料結果他出現在柬埔寨欸那林秉文一死 人事實例五馬上被報導"},{"start":4723.703,"end":4728.926,"text":"這反差也太大了吧 這個反差留給大眾很多的想像空間所以我要請教次長 如果報導資訊是屬實 身中29槍而且面目全非 那真的能確定本人嗎台灣跟吉普賽之間並沒有司法互助合作請問警政署跟法務部要怎麼去查核通緝犯是否死亡 請簡單回答"},{"start":4746.77,"end":4759.561,"text":"那這個部分這個案件的相關的一個細節其實柬埔寨的這個警方都表示還在上代調查所以在這個部分上會很慎重的去處理是這個真實性的部分這邊回答委員的問題"},{"start":4760.663,"end":4785.57,"text":"那我先就請教有沒有比對過指紋跟DNA你曉得嗎這個部分柬埔寨的檢方他們會做進一步的一個去調查這就是我的重點因為我要下一個就要請教你到底是我們的警方檢方去做採樣的呢還是說完全仰賴柬埔寨警方提供的資訊而已柬埔寨不也是被視為詐欺王國之一嗎林秉文要買通人來詐欺有困難嗎市長你覺得柬埔寨資料就可以了嗎"},{"start":4790.391,"end":4810.904,"text":"你現在還在等,但是難道他們給你的資料你就全信了嗎?跟委員報告,就是說我們國的駐胡志明市的辦事處兼夾柬埔寨的外管人員還有警政署的刑事局駐該地的聯絡官都共同的在了解,而且協助家屬處理指認跟後續的事宜"},{"start":4811.364,"end":4820.854,"text":"這部分會慎重處理啦 請委員放棄市長 這個我還有下面的要請教你通緝犯炸死不是沒有先例喔2000年前台銀箱裡陳守福他倒賣了10.2億的這個公債被通緝他的妻子還聲稱說接獲陳守福在中國車禍死亡的消息"},{"start":4830.643,"end":4852.772,"text":"但是陳首璞卻在中國把錢洗到美國最後他是因為超過這個追訴期給予不起訴處分那去年5月台中地檢署針對這個大川警署詹姓男子發布通緝隔月就收到他在柬埔寨新吉耿塞死亡的消息那為了防範這個炸死所以等待家屬他把遺體空運回台後那鑑識人員也到現場去採證指紋"},{"start":4858.235,"end":4871.446,"text":"檢體比對那確認他是本人之後才予以不起訴處分所以我接下來就要請教次長你剛剛都沒有回答到這個重點負責偵辦林秉文案件的新北地檢署是否也應該採取一樣的做法呢"},{"start":4873.739,"end":4891.113,"text":"跟委員報告地檢署有這個相關的一個作業我們法部這邊會請地檢署慎重看待這個案件那在於說跟委員報告就是說警方的一個部分警政署對這個案件也會很重視那事實上真實性這個部分上一定會做強加的一個檢查這部分請委員放心"},{"start":4892.675,"end":4920.614,"text":"你就是要具體的方法啊就是人家是這麼做在做確認啊因為涉及到境外上的一個犯罪的一個偵查其實我們的警方在國外執法你也做得到啊而且這麼重大他牽涉的背景我剛剛一開始就把他的背景告訴你牽涉的這個黨政人士這麼多牽涉的金額這麼大然後面目全非你可以說他已經死亡了嗎這個東西不是這不是可以隨便可以做決定的你要確認是他本人喔"},{"start":4921.314,"end":4946.087,"text":"次長這件事情我會繼續再追查下去那次長那個檢察總統被提名的徐錫強回答民眾黨的問卷當中你有看過他的問卷回答嗎我有看過你有看不能那個請教次長次長今天是次長代表徐被提名的回答到有一句話說在過去會看到的司法關說或上級施壓已經不太看到了請問這個次長徐被提名所謂的上級施壓你認為具體內容是什麼是怎麼樣的施壓法"},{"start":4952.302,"end":4971.152,"text":"他在回答問卷的時候白紙黑字過去的司法官說上級施壓現在已經不太看得到了那你認為他講的上級施壓是什麼呢我認同我們許備提名人的一個說法因為我們在辦案上以我擔任檢察官的工作裡面我也從來沒有遇過上級長官的事情"},{"start":4971.212,"end":4993.597,"text":"你沒有遇過那你知道嗎他這樣子寫啊他在白紙黑字上這樣寫那你知道嗎有沒有上級我想徐輝迪明人他一定也是在當檢察官的過程中一定都是嚴守我們的我們看都是看證據啦也看程序然後也會注意保障人權我們不會去看說什麼長官來施壓我們就改變我們的看法這是檢察官基本的素養好 次長次長那我們請暫停一下謝謝"},{"start":4994.557,"end":5017.222,"text":"你難道忘了彭坤業案嗎當年黃國昌立委揭發時任高檢署長官檢察官彭坤業在桃園地檢署期間接受前任法務部長那時候他擔任國安委諮詢委員邱泰山官說這個不法利益超過5億成為法界的一大醜聞市長你知道哪些機關曾提出就這個案子我剛剛講這個案子有提出報告更新我們搞嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":5019.169,"end":5031.925,"text":"你不知道 我讓次長看次長你看高檢署有提出調查報告監察院有提出新聞稿但是最終怎麼樣呢法務部就讓彭坤業提早退休免罰官逃過一劫"},{"start":5033.707,"end":5051.829,"text":"這就是法務部處理的方式嗎?你能接受這樣的結果嗎?連承認法務部部長帶頭關說都來進行關說,那人民怎麼能相信檢調系統不存在上級施壓呢?所以面對這麼大的事件被護航,難怪人民對司法信任度一直都是三成多,我就形容的死當啦"},{"start":5052.91,"end":5072.72,"text":"那次長您今天是代表部長來行政司法最高的機關就是法務部那您今天代表次長部長我想請教你你是否願意真的認真去面對思考如何改變不要只求任內無事可以平安下莊好嗎我今天給你很具體的資料喔"},{"start":5074.043,"end":5101.024,"text":"我們是那個常務次長是文官沒有安全下莊的問題就是我們如果說要講的是政務官的部分其實以法務部的角度來看您今天就代表部長出席代表部長出席只能回答部裡面相關問題我們還是如果說談論到說安全下莊的話那我們這個我是希望大家都沒有這樣的心態我今天就是把資料而且就一五一十的就分析給您聽"},{"start":5101.824,"end":5112.088,"text":"那我們希望很多事情要務必求真嘛那沒有上去 這個要把司法的這個低分嘛 適當的分數要把它講辦法把它贏回來嘛好 謝謝市長謝謝謝謝主席好 接下來我們有"},{"start":5129.042,"end":5139.329,"text":"好 接下來我們有請翁委員 翁曉琳委員質詢是 謝謝主席我們首先請防務部的馮長次好 麻煩副長"},{"start":5143.552,"end":5160.625,"text":"風策長好我想剛剛大家委員們的提案說明這次為什麼要修小額貪污的這個相關的條文呢最主要也是有鑒於就是在去年的時候曾經發生那32元的二手電鍋案那麼這個案子其實也引發社會的廣泛的討論那麼而且又在"},{"start":5165.387,"end":5191.886,"text":"這個讓大家回憶起過去以往常常屢見不顯的這種非常非常小的這個金錢上面所謂的這種侵占財務的這個相關的案子那麼我們知道其實因為在現行的貪污之罪條例底下這個罪侵本行五年以上的侵占職務上的財務罪這樣子的一個條文規定其實就有點像是用大炮這個去打小鳥"},{"start":5192.986,"end":5198.429,"text":"這個尤其是五萬元以下對於國民的法律情感來講認為其實他這個相對來說他的惡性是比較低的那麼當初貪污自罪條例的制定就是為了要治貪腐用重點結果沒想到因為基層人員的這樣常常會不小心會可能觸犯這樣的罪而受到嚴重的處罰那麼我們剛剛之前也都說了其實大法官在"},{"start":5219.438,"end":5233.365,"text":"是自790號112年宪判自13號裡面都已經也指出了不論情節輕重一律可以重刑是違反罪行相當原則的但我們知道法務部事實上在先前"},{"start":5235.486,"end":5246.792,"text":"113年的時候其實當時也提出了修法至少這本席看到你們在114年9月份的新聞稿裡面就提出法務部針對貪污之罪條例第12條有進行修正草案那麼請問為什麼你們當時在113年5月31號就已經送到行政院去做審查114年的8月15號也完成審查了"},{"start":5261.32,"end":5268.691,"text":"那這個案子你們到現在都沒有送到立法院時隔將近兩年的時間這個原因是什麼"},{"start":5269.892,"end":5299.098,"text":"跟委員報告首先要非常感謝我們文委員對於我們這個貪污執罪條例的這樣的一個就是看到的這個法重情輕的這一個部分那事實上前一陣子社會各界裡面像電國案還有一些案件都有一些這樣的一個聲音出來那本部也非常的重視因為事實上就如同委員所講的就是說五萬元以下然後有時候這樣子在一些情節情為情節這個就是說很輕微的一個狀況之中"},{"start":5299.958,"end":5325.918,"text":"是不是都用貪污條例一律適用這個部分確實造成了大家一些的討論那法務部這邊也很重視那目前我們提出的相關的這樣的一個也說免除期刑的部分跟委員的版本這也是相同的那我們這部分在本席是要請問就是說為什麼你們這麼久都沒有送到立法院法案聽不了行政院的原因是什麼我們現在目前的案子還是在行政院這邊你們經過審查了嗎已經審查完畢了嘛 對不對"},{"start":5329.778,"end":5340.104,"text":"已經審查三次了審查三次都還沒有定論都還沒有定論是行政院不支持還是哪一個單位不支持我們會盡速來處理這事情"},{"start":5340.802,"end":5364.756,"text":"是你們現在處理的腳步真的是非常非常緩慢那麼其實本席已經也觀察到很多的相關的修法的草案還有辦法那都押在行政院那我不知道說這個行政院為什麼不尊重你們法務部的意見更何況我覺得這個案子是有社會共識草野也有個別委員都有提出來"},{"start":5365.436,"end":5384.843,"text":"這個沒有什麼太爭議的案子應該行政院就要儘速送出來那常常都是因為行政院沒有對案法務部沒有對案送到立法院然後呢我們大家在討論的時候當時看起來沒什麼問題結果等到三讀的通過之後馬上又有外界可能有"},{"start":5386.563,"end":5413.479,"text":"人會攻擊說這都是某某委員的提案那其實法務本身有提案啊所以本席希望說法務部應該要盡速的去催一催行政院很多重要的法案不要壓在行政院那包含接下來我們要討論的這個刑法八十條的修正案也是一樣的其實你們行政院在2026年1月29號就已經通過刑法第八十條的修正草案了嘛"},{"start":5414.039,"end":5431.994,"text":"但是這個案子也沒有送到立法院來有嗎跟委員報告現在2月9號的時候會嫌司法院那所以現在問題是卡在司法院嗎可以請司法院廳長說明一下嗎這案子現在是卡在司法院嗎"},{"start":5434.133,"end":5450.103,"text":"是 報告委員那個行政院他在2月9號發文那司法院在2月10號收到他彙嫌的函文那我們經過36個工作天已經在4月10號統一彙嫌並函附行政院所以這個部分本院已經統一彙嫌"},{"start":5451.226,"end":5470.144,"text":"那這36個工作天針對這個追訴權時效它所涉及的重要性以及相關爭議來講我認為是合理的時間比如說我們今天好 了解了所以謝謝司法院已經在4月10號就回覆了因為這個基本上根據本席了解大法官其實現在也在受理相關的案子那麼如果說我們能夠加快"},{"start":5470.924,"end":5488.841,"text":"腳步把這個所謂的比較不合理的條文修正的話那我想其實也就不勞這些五人大法官要再去做出所謂的違憲的判決那麼這個部分的話希望就是行政院能夠盡速將刑法八十條的修正案"},{"start":5489.962,"end":5502.154,"text":"提到立法院來因為我們今天只是第一次開始進行詢答等到之後進行審查時候本席希望就已經能夠看到法務部的版本可以嗎請問次長"},{"start":5505.564,"end":5514.487,"text":"會跟行政院這邊去報告這件事情一定要嚴正的反映這件事情針對這個議題本身還有一個問題想請教就是因為我們知道其實證據的重要性但是在性侵案件裡面尤其是未成年的性侵案要求被害人陳述必須要有補強證據這時候可能會很困難尤其是我們現在等於說追溯權"},{"start":5529.812,"end":5550.667,"text":"18歲以後才開始這個計算的話那麼事實上如果案件是發生在20年前常常這種監視器或是生物的樣本都已經消失了所以在這裡是不是有可能可以參考國外的經驗針對延遲揭露的案件延遲揭露的性侵案件可以調降補強證據的門檻"},{"start":5553.905,"end":5567.098,"text":"跟委員報告就是說補強證據這個部分各體檢署的檢察官在偵辦的時候他會依照這個實際的一個情況來做一個判斷就在這個部分上是不是要多強的補強他們在個案中會做一個審慎的一個判斷"},{"start":5567.935,"end":5589.424,"text":"是 那本席是希望說能夠借助就是參考國外的經驗然後另外一個就是可以調降補強證據的門檻還可以透過專業的司法心理鑑定來作為法庭上面有效的補強證據那這部分的話 不曉得刑事庭庭長這裡是不是可以接受類似像這樣的一個國外的做法"},{"start":5590.656,"end":5609.536,"text":"是關於這個證據法則的部分呢這個尤其是關於性侵害被害人他所做的陳述不得作為唯一證據那確實有補強法則的適用那關於這個補強法則他同時也是實務上在適用上他常常會有一些寬延不等的這種認定那關於性侵害補強法則其實"},{"start":5610.757,"end":5636.792,"text":"我們很願意參考所有國外的見解以及大法官關於這個補強法則所揭示的適用那以及他對於被告所造成的影響來做綜合通盤的考量那這部分其實最高法院在補強法則的適用上也有相關的見解我相信他可以均衡的去保障這個被害人的訴訟權以及被告的訴訟權OK很好那我本是希望說這個刑法80條如果順利通過的話相關的配套措施要請法務部還有"},{"start":5640.254,"end":5664.909,"text":"這個司法院法院這邊都能夠從被害人的角度出發然後給予更多的在證據上面的有利的一個判斷好那最後一個問題我想請教就是說是一個結構性的問題就是有關於檢察官的上訴權其實這個可能也是我們接下來立法院所要推動的這個有關於羈押抗告是不是要限定次數或者是說應該就直接由法院自為"},{"start":5665.729,"end":5681.214,"text":"裁定的這樣的一個修法的規定那麼我想請教次長你是不是支持限制檢察官的上訴權包括羈押裁定的抗告還是只是憲據就是程序違法才能夠上訴"},{"start":5682.213,"end":5702.935,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員報告其實我們的這個上訴的制度它是整套的那我們實務上也常常會發現說這個不罰說有時候一審他是判無罪二審有罪然後這樣有時候這個層級上雖然多但他最終會發現到真實所以我們在這個檢察官的甚至上訴權"},{"start":5703.936,"end":5730.843,"text":"這個部分也可能會這個產生就失去監督這個法院的一個裁判功能這個部分上就是說它有通盤性的一個考量所以上訴權這個我認為還是有必要所以你們到現在還是認為是有必要不過我想這個議題因為也引起社會的關注就是檢察官是不是有這個押人取供的這個情況而且同時呢不斷的這個針對羈押的裁定抗告"},{"start":5733.3,"end":5747.419,"text":"行使抗告這個其實相當程度也是對於被羈押人他的權益可能會造成一定的侵害一定的影響所以因為已經有不少委員有提案"},{"start":5747.97,"end":5771.555,"text":"那麼看是之後針對欺壓抗告的次數做一定的限制或者是說是由上級法院自行來決定那這個議題我覺得是接下來我們會要持續關注的而且重點關注的議題那也希望法務部能夠儘速的要針對這個議題提出你們的看法然後甚至修正版本好不好好 那我以上今天詢問就到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝歐文 謝謝司長"},{"start":5786.786,"end":5805.388,"text":"好 接下來我們有請審發會委員詢答主席 我們請法務部馮次長好 有請馮次長先生好 委員好"},{"start":5806.875,"end":5830.82,"text":"市長好今天我們議程是排了四個案子剛才大概委員大家比較集中關心的一個是貪污治罪條例第12條修正案另外就是有關於刑法第80條性侵害犯罪的追溯期限的問題我今天大概也是針對這兩個問題來跟就教市長"},{"start":5835.479,"end":5860.944,"text":"有關這個貪污制裁條例的修正條文草案剛才大家都說了這個事實上社會有共識而且事實上我們法務部也在這個113年的5月10號這個在兩年前就已經公告了那剛才這個翁委員有請教不過這個次長是沒有回答我不知道是次長到底為什麼在行政院卡這麼久"},{"start":5861.924,"end":5878.989,"text":"跟委員講有什麼樣的考量跟爭議事實上各機關還有我們的行政院他們在對法案上面來講其實都是會很慎重的看待我知道但是這個案子有點久了但我們也大概經過了三次並沒有一個懈怠我知道三次有什麼樣的爭點為什麼會三次"},{"start":5882.05,"end":5903.868,"text":"針對於說貪污自罪條例上面來講就是說我們的一個部分已經漸漸的就是限縮到大家都能夠接受那所以這個部分上我們會儘速處理這樣子啦 因為你也沒有辦法也一直沒有回答說這三次到底有什麼樣的爭議那我個人我的理解就是其實你們的法案你們公告的法案其實並不是只單修12條你們是連11條一起修正 對不對"},{"start":5907.991,"end":5927.299,"text":"所以你們的這個條文齁其實我看大部分的委員都是跟你跟你們這個法務部公告的條文是一樣的但是有一個地方很不一樣就是你們這裡你們的條文這個第二項你們第十二條修正第二項你們說犯前條第一項至第五項之罪但是事實上前條目前只有四項啦"},{"start":5928.939,"end":5951.499,"text":"跟委員報告我們當就是說剛剛講說我們的修正第四條到第六條之最我們還有一個徵定行會國際組織的官方我要講就是這個啦你們提出來的其實是兩條啦11條跟12條配套一起修那現在所有的委員提出來都是針對12條而已嗎那12條"},{"start":5954.281,"end":5972.709,"text":"他是12條所以他是前條的4項的條文但是你們因為有11條修正所以你們前條變成5項條文嘛一個是這個跟國際法跟這個國際公約來這個接軌嘛那另外一個是針對法人的這個罰金法的部分"},{"start":5973.829,"end":6001.324,"text":"這是增加了這兩個對不對我們還有那個布板裡面有第11條跟6之1條所以說會比較就是討論的東西會比較多但是你們因為這個相關的討論而卡到這個第12條事實上是會有高度共識的案子所以這個變成我們今天委員會先安排這個看起來今天可能要通過了那如果今天要出委員會那今天如果出委員會你們的條文未來11條修正之後不是12條還要再修一次"},{"start":6004.373,"end":6025.707,"text":"這個部分我們現在的問題你們敢敢看啦你們跟行政院這邊來反映說這個是不是你要怎麼樣因應這個問題你如果有這樣的空窗期就是我們今天修法過了前四條那你們未來還要再修第十一條你們十一條我們可能通過了還沒刪讀你們十一條條文出來了"},{"start":6027.967,"end":6050.437,"text":"所以我們還是希望說能夠給我們一點時間啦就我們針對這個東西這個等一下我們再大力討論的時候看委員會大家怎麼橫著啦因為已經等你們這麼久了這個是第一個啦第二個有關刑法八十條的部分刑法八十條這個其實這個我看大家也都有高度共識啦那在這個"},{"start":6052.23,"end":6057.212,"text":"事實上我113年我這邊有秀出一個113年我們本委員會的會議紀錄這個那時候113年5月的時候質詢就我在這邊質詢那個時候也是針對這一條你們這個時候法務部的意見是說你們經過這個三次的這個行修會議"},{"start":6073.419,"end":6088.92,"text":"你們認為我們的刑法我們這個有關性侵害的法定刑已經比其他國家來得重了而且我們的時效也比其他國家來得長了所以那時候三次刑修會議是傾向於不修法不過這是那個時候啦"},{"start":6089.821,"end":6102.486,"text":"但是你們在113年的5月27號114年8月你們提出預告版本你們事實上也是修了跟大家一樣不過我想今天既然可能會進入逐條可能會討論這一條這個目前大概"},{"start":6105.39,"end":6131.3,"text":"有總共你們那時候我那時候質詢的時候其實只有兩個委員的版本那現在因為你們公告了出來之後就代出了29個委員的版本了大家都參考你們的版本就趕快提案了提了29個版本那這29個版本呢這個其中有的這個變成有的人修80條有的人修修這個這個有人修80條有人修80"},{"start":6137.355,"end":6161.025,"text":"83條有人修83條有人修80條甚至還有加80條之一的啦這個大家的意思可能意思都一樣但是修的法條不一樣修的法條不一樣不是說只是法律放在不同條文而已他在法律結構意義上是不一樣的我們現在目前法務部的版本是修80條修80條的意思就是說"},{"start":6164.656,"end":6185.389,"text":"我們這個追溯時效它的起算時間去改變追溯期效的起算時間對不對但是追溯期效的這個時效的這個起算期間按照這個一樣是在80條裡面它規定就是前向期間至犯罪成立之時起算"},{"start":6186.767,"end":6198.185,"text":"從犯罪之時 時間起算時效 這個是基本時效的基本原理如果是繼續犯的話 到行為終了時起算對 繼續犯到行為終了這個是基本原理你們去改變了這個起算點"},{"start":6200.851,"end":6227.786,"text":"一般這個像民間就有一些團體他們就認為還有也有委員的版本他們就認為說不應該去改這個起算期間應該是去暫停時效去把時效停止如果你要停止時效就是說我時效一樣從犯罪時期算但是你在未成年之前這個是停止計算的這個停止計算這個是民間現在一般主流意見如果是這樣就是應該修83條對不對"},{"start":6231.007,"end":6249.852,"text":"83條他就是有關追溯權時效他停止進行變成一種訴訟障礙的理由嘛對不對市長這80條跟83條差別在這裡嗎是對那事實上國際的立法例上面有一些是像我們也有委員提到用80條之一他完全沒有追溯時效這個"},{"start":6252.321,"end":6275.968,"text":"在國際立法例上面也有好像美國加拿大他們都是就是有關性侵害案件他就完全沒有追溯時效完全排除追溯時效這個這個的話就立法就八十我們有委員提了八十條之一的立法這三種立法例我們法務部現在目前採取的是八十條的八十條這是你們把改變這個起算起算的的的點啦齁那這個這個"},{"start":6278.462,"end":6301.773,"text":"跟一般民間團體大家認為說應該是要修83條才對應該修83條才對那不過如果我們在法理上面來爭執這個可能又延宕了我們的修法所以我們是如果說從80來修80條也是可以接受但是目前就是剛才大家也都一直關心的我們行政院是在"},{"start":6303.737,"end":6327.657,"text":"在這個2月29號也就是兩個月前會前司法院那我們看到司法院的報告上個禮拜決定我們今天議程的時候我們看到司法院的報告司法院還沒有會前出來啊結果剛剛司法院回答說啊有我們4月10號已經函付4月10號就上禮拜五啦我們的議程出來之後司法院趕快函付給行政院那現在所以"},{"start":6328.664,"end":6335.17,"text":"對行政院來講是4月10日禮拜五收到到今天才收到所以我想先請司法院我只問一個啦你們韓服的結果是什麼同意"},{"start":6341.755,"end":6365.402,"text":"報告委員 司法院經過4月10號下午開院會我們是同意會選同意會選就是按照行政院的版本嗎是的對 好 謝謝請回 我就這個問題因為我沒有看到你們函附的文我不曉得你們函附的結果是怎麼樣所以現在簡單講函附回行政院了行政院在多久之後可以送到立法院來報告委員 我們回去會跟行政院這邊"},{"start":6366.246,"end":6395.468,"text":"就要表達說委員的意見如果你們可以很快的送到這個立法院來那我等一下我們這個主要審查的時候我就會主張說那我們先保留協商即使就算出文會我們保留協商讓你們在協商期之間趕快把你們的案子送進立法院來這是一個辦法是不是可以讓我們回去因為司法院的會嫌才剛剛進來對 剛剛進來 上禮拜五才那我們也要看一下司法院會嫌的部分在行政院這邊我們再做一個"},{"start":6396.26,"end":6421.531,"text":"好那這個這個齁但是其實齁這29個版本裡面我剛剛講說29個版本裡面有各式各樣不一樣的的這個修法啦齁那各國的立法例也有各種不一樣但是這裡面有一個重點了啦齁就其他的這些我們都可以討論但是我們現在目前修了80條針對刑法裡面的性侵害犯罪那麼有關於兒少"},{"start":6423.7,"end":6430.621,"text":"而少性剝削條例裡面的其他的這些時效目前按照我們只修80條是沒有排除的喔時效沒有排除"},{"start":6431.741,"end":6460.061,"text":"衛福部針對這個部分會有他們的法條上他們會...我知道我們法務部的意見就是但這個其實其實你就法議衡量來講兒童少年性剝削防治條例它所保護的兒童跟少年跟少年的這個性自主權這個是法議這是比成年人一般普遍的成年人他法議還更嚴重但是我們現在在刑法裡面有用80條把它排除時效了但是我們兒童跟少年性剝削防治條例沒有排除"},{"start":6462.386,"end":6488.643,"text":"這個應該是這個你們法務部的態度就是這樣法務部就說因為這個主管是衛福部所以我們有委員提案就在我們八十條裡面是直接把這個兒少性撥交條例的這些條文特別法把它列到刑法裡面來排除時效這樣子的立法例當然是你們不贊成也不妥就是說用這個普通法來排除"},{"start":6489.67,"end":6509.829,"text":"排除特別法的時效 這個在立法會上非常奇怪啦沒有辦法這樣處理啦 對所以一定要在兒少條例裡面或是這個防治條例裡面來修改啦但是這個部分你們的態度就但這個很抱歉 這個主管機關是衛福部對 那我們本部沒有辦法來衛福部今天有代表來衛福部"},{"start":6515.922,"end":6535.646,"text":"公委員報告依照這個兒少性剝削防治條例第31條70號規定跟未滿16歲之人有對價之性交會猥褻行為者依刑法之規定處罰所以原則上它有部分其實是跟刑法依照刑法的規定 你就說對價關係的部分了你那全部的這個整部整部的兒少這個我跟你講這個當然今天這個我們"},{"start":6541.627,"end":6558.572,"text":"這個只是一個副司長副司長來那要代表著但衛福部在這方面真的是動作太慢我們今天可能修法就刑法80條我們就修正通過了結果我們兒童跟這個少年性剝削防治條例裡面我們的時效卻沒有排除你們這個衛福部我最後啦很抱歉時間到其實你們衛福部"},{"start":6567.782,"end":6595.977,"text":"其實這樣是完全是真的是有待遇者你們連其他齁其他你們在這個性騷擾你們性騷擾防治法這個性騷擾防治法跟這個性別教育平衡法裡面你們都已經排除了都已經把成年人的那個時效排除了性騷擾都已經成年人的時效都排除了你們這個兒童少年性侵害這個性剝削防治裡面還沒有去排除"},{"start":6598.001,"end":6613.873,"text":"這部分請妳回去反映給部裡面好不好好 我們以併納入來處理 謝謝好 以上 剩下的意見我就等一下主條的時候我們再來討論好 謝謝申委員那麼接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":6625.731,"end":6630.346,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請法務部好 有請次長"},{"start":6634.499,"end":6659.045,"text":"市長好那首先我想先了解一個狀況因為兩個星期前我才在這個委員會裡面去質詢過司法院的罰警制度但沒想過兩個禮拜之後法務部這邊也出了狀況最近台北地檢署發生了一件非常離譜的事情一名同時涉及毒品案件又被新北地檢署通緝的男子被送到北檢之後呢竟然因為"},{"start":6659.925,"end":6689.345,"text":"疑似因為這個法警的交接沒有交接清楚直接在地檢署裡面被放走了我想一般民眾聽到這個新聞都會覺得非常的驚不可思議啦非常的驚訝因為大家會覺得說一個被通緝的人被帶進地檢署之後怎麼可能會被放走呢所以這件事情其實暴露了幾個很關鍵的問題這也是想要跟次長來討論的就是說人犯交接的流程通緝身份的確認還有最後放行的程序到底有沒有程度這個程序上的漏洞"},{"start":6690.345,"end":6718.579,"text":"我們現在在這個全國的各地檢署對於法警在交接人訓人犯後訓後保解送以及最後的放行流程到底有沒有一套一致而且明確的SOP請教次長跟委員報告就是說我們法務部這邊也會再加強教育訓練因為發生這種事情我想民眾也都就覺得不樂見因為這個確實是如果是法警在交接的時候有這樣的一個狀況那我們到底有沒有一個明確的SOP"},{"start":6719.039,"end":6740.903,"text":"我們有我們的相關上就是說這個就是說對接這個叫通緝犯然後以及就是說在罰金管控上我們有我們的制度北建也有他的制度所以說就是說有了制度之後還是要落實所以說針對這個事情上有沒有在環節上有些狀況的部分的話我們會請北建這邊就是再來注意然後再調好因為我想這個對民眾來說我覺得實在是"},{"start":6744.664,"end":6760.379,"text":"會覺得太驚訝了所以是不是可以說回去要好好的我想你們應該也在做檢討了啦這個到底上面為什麼沒有辦法落實所以這個部分的檢討報告是不是也可以提供給我們好嗎 那大概什麼時候可以提供呢你們現在預估什麼時候會提出這個檢討報告可以一個月嗎"},{"start":6761.263,"end":6784.85,"text":"一個月是嗎好喔好謝謝好那接下來就回到我們今天的重點就是有關於這個刑法八十條那我想今天剛剛在這個發言的時候其實我也說明了為什麼這個兒少性侵的這個追溯期限呢應該有必要來去做一些調整因為最主要是因為大多數是發生在熟人性侵特別是家人家內性侵或是師長他相信的人等等的"},{"start":6785.41,"end":6808.805,"text":"這都會造成兒少要出來講這件事情是非常的困難那我現在看我們的立法院跟這個法務部其實已經有一個相當的共識但是我今天想要討論的是犯罪被害人的補償機制就是說在我們的犯保法第63條裡面其實是有一個請求時效那在這我們提出了這個請求時效過去經常被大家詬病"},{"start":6810.766,"end":6838.653,"text":"那現在我看到了就是說法務部提出了一個新的設計叫做障礙適由簡單來說就是說這個被害人在原本的身體期限快到之前的一年內因為可能是因為和加害人有共同生活或照顧關係或者是因為性侵造成嚴重創傷或者是受到了威脅控制那就可以在第一次向警察或檢察官說出受害經過的一年內再提出補償申請"},{"start":6840.393,"end":6864.531,"text":"我想我肯定這樣子的制度是有在前進我也理解法務部這樣子的設計的出發點但是因為這個兒少性侵犯和一般犯罪還是非常的不一樣因為很多孩子不是有權利而不主張而是在那個時間點還是沒有辦法說出來對不對所以我想請教就是法務部既然已經理解了孩子其實有說不出來的難處那為什麼還要做這樣子的限制呢因為他"},{"start":6865.151,"end":6888.786,"text":"孩子還是很難去說我因為當時被可能自己的家人性侵所以我才沒有申請他還是沒有辦法講出來啊能力上面就是做不到嘛所以我認為這樣子的設計還是太嚴苛了想請教次長這個是不是還可以做修正那第二個就是說如果我們法律只有列出這幾種障礙事由的時候未來在審查上會不會是變成另外一種高門檻"},{"start":6891.194,"end":6915.676,"text":"謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就是委員的這個對於我們這樣的這個這個性被性這個兒少的這個部分的保護其實我們跟法務部我們都是一樣那我們目前跟委員報告就是說我們的這個犯罪被害人的保障法的這個部分條文修正草案現在因為他的進度上就是公告就是說我們是就是說做那個法案的一個預告"},{"start":6916.297,"end":6939.235,"text":"那這個部分上都還可以有一些意見上我們這邊都還可以做一些調整好 那就是說我希望就是說在這件事情上面呢我想民間有許多的學者在主張說只要案件已經進入這個司法的機關調查或者檢察官已經起訴就不應該再讓被害人因為失效而被排除在這樣子的補償之外"},{"start":6940.235,"end":6968.529,"text":"這樣子的方向我希望就是說在我們這次預告之後收集完大家的意見之後我們可以再去做一個更細緻的調整讓我們的兒少被害人他的補償這件權利不會被消失可以嗎謝謝委員調整我們會盡速的就是收集各界的意見後報行政院做安整的審查好那再來最後一件事情就是我國的這個犯罪這個貪污治罪條例那接下來這個可能要請司法院抱歉"},{"start":6975.838,"end":7001.42,"text":"抱歉法務部還不能走法務委員加請司法院兩個就是說這個我們長期受重刑化的一個思維影響容易把性質差異很大的案件放在同一個高刑度的框架來處理那我想如果沒有足夠的分流跟層次也可能違反比例原則讓法律失去一個精細評價的能力所以今天這個第12條的修法重點就是針對於金額已經是比較低的清潔比較輕微的個案呢"},{"start":7001.94,"end":7017.177,"text":"是不是可以有一些調整的空間而不是一律落入這個過重的刑法那法務部其實也有提到這個12條的真定免除期刑也是在除了減刑之外有一個具體個案中可作免刑判決的一個條件"},{"start":7019.68,"end":7036.97,"text":"那但是呢我想今天跟大家先討論一下這個嚴格就過去在62年在8月7號修正案當時的條文是規定第4條到第6條各款之罪輕微而且所得或所圖得財物在三圈圓之下是適用有較輕處罰規定的刑法"},{"start":7038.771,"end":7064.646,"text":"所以在當時的立法思考其實不是在貪污制裁條例裡面調整刑度而是認為某些非常小而非常輕微的案件可以回到一般處罰比較輕的法律來處理可是可以看到在八十一年六月三十號的修法制度又改了原本的三千被提高成五萬塊的新台幣而且法律效果也從適用較輕處罰規定之刑罰或其他法律改成"},{"start":7066.087,"end":7086.092,"text":"清其刑也就是說立法者當時是只針對情節輕微金額較低的案件在貪污之罪條例的架構中保留了減刑空間那所以在這個法律嚴格我們看到了兩件事情第一個就是這個金額的門檻是立法政策的選擇的結果不是一個不能討論也不能檢討的數字"},{"start":7087.372,"end":7097.411,"text":"那第二个既然当年可以从三千调整到五万块就表示立法者本身就承认了小儿案件的界限会随着时代背景而有需要重新设定"},{"start":7099.065,"end":7118.741,"text":"所以我想了解就是說從過去我們可以看到法律的嚴格從當初不是五萬塊當初為什麼是五萬塊或是兩萬塊或是三萬塊其實我們看不到更明確的說明所以請教法務部啦針對這樣子多年的五萬元的標準你們有沒有重新檢討過它是否合理那原因又是什麼"},{"start":7120.645,"end":7148.876,"text":"那這個金額是不是提高這個部分會通盤的一個檢討那並考量個人的法律的情感去審查說這個部分是不是修正因為事實上五萬元這個部分到底是不是說夠高了那這個部分其實是一個非常判斷的問題那我們目前在這個部分上還是以五萬塊來做判斷所以我想這是在那我請教一下司法院好了好不好"},{"start":7150.765,"end":7178.998,"text":"好因為我想這一題如果說法通過之後最重要還是回到司法院這邊要做法院要做判決但是大家都在談這個情節要怎麼去做評估這其實是非常的抽象那法官在實務上面要如何判斷情節輕微呢是只看金額還是要看這個被告的職位收受的利益的太陽還有對公務連結的損害是否反覆發生等等的所以我認為就是說這個在法院的實務上面"},{"start":7179.798,"end":7186.46,"text":"你們會不會認為這個是會有一些要更說得更清楚的地方呢?"},{"start":7187.641,"end":7214.532,"text":"報告委員關於這個貪污資歷條例12條它的這個門檻金額到底是要多少那這個是一個高度就誠如剛剛次長所言它是一個高度價值判斷的問題那至於說依人民之社會通念如何才為最為適當這個部分尊重大院之決定那在司法實務上呢即使沒有這樣的條文其實我們也有實質違法性的理論來做一個具體的因應只不過關於實質違法性的"},{"start":7214.992,"end":7235.544,"text":"在怎麼樣的狀況下屬於情節輕微如同委員剛剛所提到他必須綜合考量各種因素那也會涉及個別法官關於個案的這個情節以及這個審酌的這個情況不同而異那所以說如果這個本大院今天這個討論這個貪污罪條例第12條去訂出一個比較適當的一個門檻讓法院來統一適用那對於這一個這一個"},{"start":7242.228,"end":7255.781,"text":"整個法律適用的平等一致性會有比較好的效果以上報告所以我想這個是不是我們要有一個比較清楚的立法理由甚至是提供實務實用的方向才會讓我們在實務的判決上面有個比較清楚的issue呢"},{"start":7257.673,"end":7276.068,"text":"這個部分立法理由它是可以補充這個相關的這個有關這個門檻那但是門檻我會建議就是說如果它是一個比較明確的門檻有利於法官來適用是比較好的選擇那至於說在具體的狀況那這個部分再由法官來做量刑的橫著"},{"start":7277.315,"end":7298.177,"text":"好 了解那我想最後就是再總結一下就是說我想站在我們的立場上面就是貪污其實是反貪污是不能退的一件事情是絕對要被捍衛的一件事情那根據聯合國反貪腐公約真正有說服力的反貪法制也不是說把所有的案件都用同樣的嚴厲的方式來處理而是讓重大的貪污要受到嚴厲的"},{"start":7299.498,"end":7318.252,"text":"對嚴厲的譴責同時也讓情節顯然比較輕微的案件有一個合理的區分那這樣子的話我想這個民眾就可以看到法律不是變鬆而是變得更穩更準更能夠服眾那也希望就是今天剛剛在說的一些細節的部分法務部也要再做審慎的處理這樣子謝謝"},{"start":7322.449,"end":7342.06,"text":"好 謝謝張委員我先做一個會議程序的宣告待會在盧志強委員選擇完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘那接下來我們先請林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩委員不在鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在好 我們有請徐宇珍委員"},{"start":7353.404,"end":7381.173,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請法務部馮次長司法院許廷長好 請馮次長跟許廷長次長好 廷長好有關有一個案子要跟您這邊請教就是印尼籍的失聯移工就是以一萬元的代價將銀行的帳戶賣給詐騙集團導致三名台灣民眾受騙損失金額是11.9萬那法院的判決是判處"},{"start":7382.994,"end":7410.57,"text":"四個月的徒刑並克罰金一萬並要求服刑後驅逐出境但是被告呢早在判決前四個月就已經搭機離境導致判決書完全無法執行形同廢紙那請問許廷長這樣的一個狀況我們的判決還有什麼意義嗎就好像對著空氣判決因為他早在這個判刑前四個月就已經離境了那請問這是不是現行的普遍的現象呢請問許廷長"},{"start":7412.698,"end":7436.346,"text":"報告委員 這個部分應該是個案上有一些問題但不表示整體制度都有失靈的現象這個部分我來報告 是關於這一件案子其實當初這個被告他是經過通緝盜案後來他就是被收容那營運署他台北收容所他是在113年6月12日他就發函給七龍地檢署"},{"start":7436.906,"end":7459.398,"text":"而且告知 它是依照移民法 這個如果移民法來告知這個預定在6月25號執行遣返但是基隆地檢診 它在6月25日起訴 疑審到基隆地院的時候它並沒有去註記或是給法院這個訊息那法院它收到這個起訴書 那在113年7月1日收案那在7月4號改行檢疫判決處刑程序"},{"start":7459.838,"end":7471.531,"text":"那這段期間他都沒有在獲檢察署轉資那移民署他是認為說我已經依照法律規定告知司法機關而且請這個基隆地檢署在這個部分做適當的那所以這個是算基隆地檢署的措施嗎"},{"start":7472.287,"end":7494.735,"text":"如果當初基隆地檢署他在起訴的時候有所註記或許可以比較可以避免這個那當然不能說全部都是地檢署的疏失因為這個他在收容中那收容也可能被遣返所以那請問一下那次長最可靠的方式就是法官如果他也能夠限制出行出海那這個部分其實他就有一個司法的控制控制他能夠到庭來執行"},{"start":7496.051,"end":7511.421,"text":"那請問一下市長這個狀況我想就是委員講的這個部分我們法部真的是高度重視因為事實上我們的司法就是說在最終就是說要能夠像委員講的判下去要達到它的一個司法的效果"},{"start":7511.781,"end":7527.04,"text":"否則的話如果說是沒有辦法執行的話那這樣當然就會造成說民眾對於司法上面的一個這個信任度就會不足那這個部分上金融遞減的一個就有沒有剛剛的這個狀況或做法還有沒有辦法更進一步的部分我們回去會請金融遞減署這邊研究"},{"start":7527.861,"end":7549.473,"text":"因為這個部分我們不希望說事實上警方很辛苦的抓人然後檢察官可能起訴法官審理都耗費了這麼多的一個行政的一個時間跟資源結果到最後卻抓不到人因為人早就遣返了其實這我覺得是在我們通報的上面事實上是有很我覺得有失靈的狀況那這個部分的話可能要請我們法務部跟司法局這邊"},{"start":7550.453,"end":7578.758,"text":"大家都要通靈合作要怎麼樣才能夠杜絕這樣的狀況否則的話這樣詐騙的這個案件這個頻傳那只要大家就是想說詐騙集團就是我就找這樣的這個失聯義工來去那個帳戶來去做我們詐騙集團的這個這個掩護的話那事實上等於抓到也沒事啊因為他就遣返啊所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下那尤其是現在的入出國籍移民法第36條規定遣返前10日的通報"},{"start":7579.438,"end":7599.023,"text":"屬於刑事的通知所以目前在司法案件爆料之下檢方跟法院根本沒有辦法在10天內看到通報而且在極短的時間內完成起訴或判決所以這樣的讓移工在台灣翻案非常的容易那所以針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣子的一個我們可以解決的方式"},{"start":7602.045,"end":7626.471,"text":"跟委員報告 其實利用移工還有一些公司的人頭賬戶這些來做詐騙的部分事實上我們現在都有注意到這個現象那針對這個部分上我們也會針對制度面以及我們的宣導面還有我們查緝面的部分來做落實那希望是說能夠杜絕掉就這樣子利用一些弱勢利用一些移工來做這樣的詐欺犯罪的一個行為"},{"start":7627.418,"end":7646.671,"text":"所以剛剛講到移工的部分,剛好最近勞動部說要開放印度的移工來台那當然引起非常大的各界的質疑尤其在一個公共政策的網路參與平台,才短短幾天就有三萬多人表達反對的意見"},{"start":7648.112,"end":7672.005,"text":"當然針對這樣子的移工的犯案之後尤其是這樣的一個案子移工犯案之後結果也就是這樣子就出境了完全沒有受到任何的裁決那民眾會有擔心這樣子的一個問題那所以在現在的這個司法的一個狀況之下如果這個漏洞沒有把它補好的話事實上在開放移工來台灣會讓大家覺得非常的擔心台灣會不會變成這樣子的一個犯罪天堂"},{"start":7675.683,"end":7687.255,"text":"我想我們會就我們的部分就是說做好我們該做的那個部分就是說針對於說犯罪後是不是他們會有逃亡的這一個部分我們會跟司法院這邊做好一個這個聯繫"},{"start":7689.083,"end":7711.01,"text":"當然我想其實現在人民對司法的不滿不是因為這個個案而已而是因為標準明顯的失衡像現在大家非常反彈就是法務部對於我們的清潔隊員電鍋案表示因為貪污製作條例的法定行眾不屬於刑事訴訟法可以違罪不舉的空間所以呢我們的這個基層清潔隊員僅未轉送一個殘值32.56元的舊電鍋給一個實荒的婦人"},{"start":7716.892,"end":7735.9,"text":"但是還是遭到起訴判有罪那反觀我們的監察委員前監察院秘書長私用公務車接送寵物美容然後送家人接送雞這些呢檢方最後卻以自付郵費順路使用等理由牽結認定無不法意圖這會讓人家看到的不是法律一致而是對基層從嚴對高官"},{"start":7739.202,"end":7766.681,"text":"所以次長請教一下檢察官現在用自付油錢來幫監委護航這叫沒有損害國庫但是呢請問公務車司機的薪水加班費是誰付的是監委自己付的還是全民納稅人付的車子的保養費車子的折舊費不用花公務預算來支付嗎所以這難道不是侵占公務資源為什麼到了監委手上就只要付了油錢就變成了私人的這個租賃車可以隨意接送寵物美容"},{"start":7767.521,"end":7791.739,"text":"送家人接送機呢其實法務部當然我們對具體的各辦原則上我們是我們不會去做干預不介入也不會指導我們會尊重甲官的行使職權但是這個案子已經造成對社會的一個非常他這個案件當然不會是指以說是不是支付油錢來做牽結啦他是依照刑法上面來講就是說針對考綜合的考量"},{"start":7792.319,"end":7809.731,"text":"是不是用車時間啊 頻率啊 實際支出等這個事件來去看說有沒有刑事上的不法那我要跟委員報告就是說刑事我們任何的一個事件裡面它可能會有刑事不法它也可能會有行政不法又或者是說這樣的觀感不好的問題它是有一個層次性的部分"},{"start":7810.531,"end":7836.92,"text":"那這件屬不屬於 屬於什麼?針對於我們的部分我們檢察官是在評斷說我們這個案件到之中有沒有在刑事不法上來做一個判斷那請問一下 請問一下次長就是說這兩案啦在人民的這個眼中其實就是明顯的這個輕重失衡喔一邊是32元的舊電鍋而且是要住石荒老的這個婦人一個是就是濫用公務車這樣子卻以牽結收藏那請問這兩案"},{"start":7839.801,"end":7864.68,"text":"法務部承不承認其實就是有明顯的這個輕重權衡其實因為每個案件它的狀況真的是不同我們就是委員提到的這個電鍋32元的這一個案子其實當時在台北市裡面他們的一個制度上就是說他們有一個就是洗物網就是你東西如果進去的話它事實上它是整個公用上那我們的這個清潔隊員他也知道這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":7865.601,"end":7892.417,"text":"所以事實上依照貪污罪條例的一個規定現在我們的法院也是判定是有罪的只是我們社會上會覺得說那侵佔這麼一個殘職只有32塊這樣只要用那麼重的條文來去判斷它是不是合適我們也同意說在這個刑侵法重的這個部分上要去做調整但是如何調整呢不是代表說今天說這樣的一個犯罪這樣的一個行為它還是屬於犯罪嘛"},{"start":7892.777,"end":7907.823,"text":"那所以這樣的一個行為我們在法令還沒有修之前我們還是要依法來判斷只是說跟委員報告您剛剛提到的那個很重要的部分說我們怎麼調整的話我們會針對說我們現在大概社會大界這個委員也在講說這個五萬塊以下"},{"start":7908.263,"end":7936.61,"text":"那我們有就是說增加了這個免除期刑的一個規定就是說萬一真的法院認定在具體個案上看到說真的有那麼可憐所以法務部也是贊成這樣子一個修法的一個方向我們會我們會朝這個方向對我想要不然的話大家都覺得每次都說尊重個案可是事實上民眾的反應是非常非常的沒辦法接受我覺得這是一個最基本的一個是非判斷的原則那也希望說針對這個部分我們要盡速的來修法不要再讓這樣子的一個"},{"start":7938.131,"end":7948.357,"text":"讓大家覺得是非就看到基層呢 這個法就很重那看到高官呢 就法清希望不要再有這樣的現象發生不會這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員那麼我們接下來有請羅志強委員發言有請法務部馮次長"},{"start":7967.386,"end":7993.925,"text":"好 有請馮次長然後刑事廳許廳長許廳長好 委員好次長 是台北市清潔隊員捐殘食32元的電鍋給十荒富人遭檢方以貪污治罪條例起訴然後士林地方法院判刑三個月"},{"start":7994.847,"end":8015.82,"text":"去年本席在司法法治委員會質詢我們的政部長的時候我說這是一個缺乏同理心沒有溫度的司法離國民情感太遠給人的感覺是捐鍋者豬詐騙者猴好人被懲罰壞人逍遙法外你知道當時部長怎麼回答我嗎"},{"start":8017.725,"end":8036.133,"text":"我告訴你 他說此案確實是秦清法重也是高年也有講到秦清法重承諾法務部會提出修法然後其實部長也不只是對本席承諾我幫您回憶一下去年12月3日陳培宇委員質詢的時候"},{"start":8037.745,"end":8047.18,"text":"部長說這個案子確實是情輕法重然後法務部已經提出貪污治罪條例第12條修正草案"},{"start":8048.188,"end":8076.864,"text":"因為貪污所得在五萬元以下情節輕微修法多一個免除期刑的選項可以讓法官及檢方在處理上能有一個更大的裁量空間我想請問次長部長在去年底的這個宣誓法務部現在還是認同嗎還是已經改變了我們的那個立場很像一致的還是一樣嘛 對不對好 我給我們次長一個肯定"},{"start":8077.674,"end":8091.629,"text":"那我來告訴您 其實部長不只是對陳培鈺委員是這樣回答事實上是對我們的翁小玲委員也是這樣回答對吳宗憲委員也是這樣回答所以這也是法務部非常清楚的立場"},{"start":8093.103,"end":8119.853,"text":"也不只是今天部長 法務部有這個態度喔我想請教您 知道嗎現在正要參選高雄市長的賴瑞榮委員他也提出了貪污自罪條例的修法版本版本是在新台幣五萬元以下者得減輕期刑至期刑三分之一或免除期刑這與法務部的修法方向也大致一致嘛對不對 效果相同也相同嘛"},{"start":8120.829,"end":8142.753,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下請問一下我底下說這句話你幫我想想看是誰說的在全民厭惡貪污期待廉政的同時在野黨正推動修法要讓五萬元以下的貪污免除刑責請問這句話是誰說的我告訴你賴清德總統說的"},{"start":8149.807,"end":8177.662,"text":"我想請問賴清德總統說要修正所謂的五萬元以下貪污免除行政賴總統你反對我沒有意見啊你不要扣在野黨嘛你正確的說法應該說法務部可務賴銳龍可務當然國民黨也可務因為提出了這個修法版本針對秦清法眾的狀況五萬元以下的貪污所得"},{"start":8178.837,"end":8203.475,"text":"今天可以免除洗刑的選項提出這個意見的不只在野黨法務部你也提出這個意見民進黨也提出這個意見怎麼變成今天在野黨支持貪污反對廉政法務部你們是賴總統的法律守門人賴政府法律守門人要不要去跟賴總統說一下"},{"start":8205.233,"end":8216.321,"text":"跟委員報告我們是國家的法治守門人非常好非常好國家的法治守門人所以今天我又問你嘛到底是賴總統對還是法務部對我想其實總統對於這個反貪暢聯這個部分是不遺餘力的啦謝謝 不遺餘力啊在各種場合上我告訴你"},{"start":8227.165,"end":8253.2,"text":"那也跟委員報告政部長也不遺餘力啦請容許我再多說一句事實上我們在這幾年我們的青年印象指數我想那個委員也非常清楚我告訴你我沒有否定今天法務部反貪促聯的努力我只講一個回頭一個最簡單的事情我也不為難你 你答不出來嘛部長講的清清楚楚 秦清法重"},{"start":8255.217,"end":8273.772,"text":"32元電鍋善心捐給石荒老夫竟然被判刑因為貪污自由條例就有不合宜的地方嘛法務部今天才想要提出修法在野黨才要提出修法民進黨才要提出修法大家都知道這不合理 秦清法重唯獨我們的賴總統竟然突然跳出來"},{"start":8275.1,"end":8302.969,"text":"挑出來沒關係喔 蘿賴總統真的是今天就是非常嚴苛你貪一塊錢你今天只要中一塊錢一樣重罰重判我尊重你的價值判斷但是呢扣給在野黨就沒意思了啦這個是朝野共識啊 在立法院朝野共識啊連行政院 連我們法務部都支持的案子竟然可以扣帽子說是在野黨來縱容貪污"},{"start":8304.502,"end":8324.318,"text":"回頭我還是跟法務部期待啦 真的也許我們賴總統對於台灣的現代法治狀況有一些不了解的地方回去告訴我們行政院院長請我們法務部長有機會幫賴總統上個課第一個了解現在是到底是多麼荒謬"},{"start":8325.779,"end":8340.71,"text":"多麼荒謬的狀況才會今天有朝野政黨加上法務部都想要提供修法第二個請賴總統學會不要去隨便抹黑別人要抹黑啊連法務部連民進黨連賴瑞榮一起抹黑謝謝您好 謝謝羅委員那我們現在就休息五分鐘"},{"start":8358.203,"end":8358.223,"text":"蝦子"},{"start":8397.841,"end":8408.763,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8424.879,"end":8431.925,"text":"我來,我做踩硬,我做踩硬,對我好嗎?好,好,好"},{"start":8452.668,"end":8452.968,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8485.53,"end":8487.231,"text":"好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,"},{"start":8515.031,"end":8515.752,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳。"},{"start":8539.349,"end":8539.49,"text":"哦,好"},{"start":8554.939,"end":8560.502,"text":"今天為我介紹的廳長是我自己看過那麼多的廳長,所以就說他是廳長我也是很喜歡廳長,我也是很喜歡"},{"start":8581.347,"end":8584.491,"text":"這瓶是蜜蜂蜜蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂"},{"start":8600.791,"end":8601.031,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":8623.752,"end":8623.772,"text":"蕙琦"},{"start":8637.689,"end":8658.161,"text":"我硬起這些硬紙紙吧但是我在看上禮拜對班的角度啊所以我還遇到那種非常痛苦的方法因為他們剛好就是把這個壓住了我那時候很累耶然後回去想怎麼回事啊我等一下一直在想為什麼一直跟人家說完這個"},{"start":8689.036,"end":8709.424,"text":"來吃一口"},{"start":8722.157,"end":8746.625,"text":"有什麼想要說的嗎?有,因為那個...我說我等一下就去要跟...報告...報告的,你要去要跟報告的你反正等一下就去...我都忘記了那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那"},{"start":8768.509,"end":8769.57,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那麼接下來請林芮晴委員發言"},{"start":8791.258,"end":8794.599,"text":"法務部在去年8月12號就公告刑法80條的修正草案"},{"start":8813.274,"end":8813.754,"text":"為何刑法第286條的那個"},{"start":8829.414,"end":8843.568,"text":"防礙幼童的自然發育罪以及我們的兒少性剝削條例中的多項重罪並沒有同步的去比照修正因為這樣同樣在幼年的時候遭受到嚴重凌虐的時候"},{"start":8845.129,"end":8865.476,"text":"他因為於失效之後而無法就近因為最近我們收到的個案就是這些所以導致當時為了保護兒少身心健康健全的立法目的就不復存在我不知道這樣的修當初只有去處理我們的八十條的這個卻沒有去考慮到這個當時修法的考量是什麼"},{"start":8866.892,"end":8888.011,"text":"我們基本上針對這樣的條文的一個修正他還是針對說我們的一個追溯權希望能夠保障我們的這個遭到性侵害的這樣的一個對象的這樣的一個法例然後去做一個就是在時效上就是說往後從20歲以後就在這個之前不算入的這樣的一個狀況他是希望是說追溯權能夠"},{"start":8888.752,"end":8913.725,"text":"理解說這個兒少他的這個等於算是 可是同樣這個也是很嚴重在刑法286條對 然後針對兒少的主管的這個部會 因為他是衛福部嘛那我們的這個部分是針對於性侵害的國安局次長也回去研議好不好因為我覺得這部分對我們來講蠻重要那謝謝次長那主席有請我們的刑事廳的許廳長跟民事廳的林廳長好 請許廳長"},{"start":8918.802,"end":8926.505,"text":"兩位聽長今年國家衛生研究院公布我們的私自流行病學的調查大家退估65歲去年達到38萬接下來130年的時候會達40萬那140年的時候可能會去達到了70萬以上"},{"start":8935.207,"end":8962.516,"text":"那也就是代表我們的持續事實上往上攀升而且相關原因就也指出超過一半的失智症患者實際上是沒有被正確的辨識跟診斷的那依據我們的CRPD也就是新生權公約在司法程序上應提供的合理調整可是實務上當一名未被妥善診斷欠缺他欠缺病史感的失智患者進入到偵查或是審判程序的時候就會可能產生"},{"start":8963.596,"end":8992.996,"text":"記憶的混亂 陳述的矛盾這些狀況那這些人可能會成為刑事的受害人甚至是證人甚至事實上是被告那韓國最近就有新聞出來說專挑失智老人下手不罰金流高達40億元所以我們要的事實上是假設失智症患者今天不幸成為原告被告如果確保他們有一場公平的審判所以想問我們的許廷長實務上對這些到底法律上可以怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":8993.877,"end":9008.008,"text":"是 報告委員那關於失智症這個患者他的司法禁用權的部分其實有失智症他可能屬於身心障礙權利公約及我國身心障礙定義的包含範圍之內那他應該是身心障礙鑑定類別如果他明確的診斷"},{"start":9009.369,"end":9025.441,"text":"那他應該歸類為這個神經系統構造精神心智功能的障礙那如果在沒有明確有診斷的時候他也可能依照這個社會模式也可能被包涉入這個身心障礙範圍內那關於這些失智症這些心智功能障礙者他"},{"start":9026.381,"end":9052.298,"text":"司法院其實他有做一個CRPD的這個司法指引來指引法官如何照顧他們特殊的需求並作為合理調整比如說他必須提供多元的溝通輔具或者調整書面資料跟資訊的呈現或者是調整法庭訊問的方式與態度那允許陪同之時以盡力心愛關係那這部分或許沒有一個各個民事送法他有一個相關的讓他可以進入的條款比如說像刑事送法35條"},{"start":9053.499,"end":9066.875,"text":"他就有規定這個因精神障礙或其他心智缺陷無法完成的時候他有一個輔佐人專業人員的勢力我現在時間上的關係是不是先問一下那個林廷長也是這樣嗎同樣的在民法上"},{"start":9067.478,"end":9095.996,"text":"是那個跟委員報告那個剛才許廷長講的實際上是一個司法禁用權司法行政的資源就是說這一些弱勢者到司法法院來應訴的時候那個有關一些方法的部分但是委員剛才提到某些個案失智老人的問題那個涉及到個別案件如何認定比如說他在程序上有輔佐人或者實際上面他是屬於民法上的精神耗弱之人"},{"start":9096.796,"end":9123.31,"text":"等等這些會個別按進不同的請求權個別去適用因為現在目前就是民間團體跟我們講說他們接觸到非常多這樣的案子可是呢真的事實上是進入到被告的時候呢事實上他們之前就是沒有被診斷出來所以想續問是說司法院目前對於第一線的司法人員是不是有受過相關的身心障礙的專業訓練能不能在第一時間"},{"start":9124.571,"end":9128.805,"text":"知道這些病徵然後立即採取必要的一些協助來處理這個問題"},{"start":9133.038,"end":9154.375,"text":"關於這一 這種如何去保障他的司法經過權他實體法上跟訴訟法上其實都有相應的機制那他如果有這樣的一個狀況他往往在訴訟程序上或是在相關的這個情況下會產生相關的這個現象那這部分通常必須要用鑑定制度來加以處理那委員可能會想說對 可是現在就是說因為"},{"start":9154.975,"end":9163.734,"text":"很多我們就看現在很多而且失智事實上是有年輕化的狀態可能第一時間都沒有辦法被診斷出來的時候你們有沒有更積極的一些作為"},{"start":9166.614,"end":9195.216,"text":"關於這個失智症的辨別確實是有相當困難那其實他的家人應該是能夠比法官更了解他那其實在這種狀況之下他家人或是說他親近信賴之人假設能夠陪同那是應該是可以協助法官來發現這樣的狀況並且啟動進一步的措施那在以刑事訴訟法來講那關於社工人員或其他專業人員都可以作為輔助人陪同到場而且他應該有主管機關或相關社福機公所指標"},{"start":9195.356,"end":9212.518,"text":"派出這一類人員所以只是說如何去啟動這個可能是一個就是許廷長就是說未來是否有考慮將精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法因為我剛剛問是這個我現在問是精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法庭的一個制度"},{"start":9212.958,"end":9223.047,"text":"由精神科醫師進入一般法庭參與審判或是考慮我們設置精神障礙的專庭由專業知識的相關的法官來進行審判"},{"start":9227.509,"end":9243.738,"text":"提到一個怎麼樣讓專業引入司法他怎麼樣才是一個最適合的機制那以這個精神衛生法庭當然他是一個相當優良的一個制度但這個專業審判他就是他可以整合司法跟醫療但是如果是就是說針對這樣的狀況他要去做"},{"start":9246.359,"end":9273.508,"text":"擴及到所有這個在各種程序都有這一種鑽停的時候他可能會有一些挑戰然後比如說資源量的分布目前這個可能會面臨到說某一些偏遠地區或是說他的資源怎麼樣配置我們現在司法的人力是已經非常緊繃了有沒有辦法再負擔這樣子這個可不可以帶回去去研擬考慮為什麼因為現在已經是一個很嚴重的趨勢也是一個問題點尤其事實上"},{"start":9274.068,"end":9301.992,"text":"我們去年就有38萬而且事實上是沒有被發現的所以最後麻煩我們的司法院進駐我們研擬兒少保護立法不足的部分要麻煩次長還有針對研擬設置專庭跟專家參審的制度麻煩我們的司法院在一個月內可不可以給我相關的我們一個月內來研議並報告再麻煩 謝謝主席 謝謝林好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":9302.878,"end":9306.379,"text":"那接下來我們有請莊銳雄委員發言謝謝張偉有請我們法務部馮次長有請馮次長司法院我們許廳長刑事廳許廳長許廳長衛福部我們保護服務司的張副司長好不好來有請張副司長"},{"start":9332.423,"end":9358.723,"text":"我想要來請教三位對於這個兒少性侵追溯權的一個問題我想整個追溯權的實效大家很清楚其實就是要讓整個法律的一個安定性但是又涉及到這個被害人的一個正義的一個問題那我先來請教我們那個衛福部那個張副司長"},{"start":9360.069,"end":9386.962,"text":"你有沒有覺得兒少性侵的部分追溯犬失教你們的看法以現在的法治來看的話你們會不會覺得說好像是這樣的一個規定裡面跟現在所頻繁發生的一個案件因為性侵的案件常常兒少未成年人佔的是最多那你們又會不會認為說現行的一個制度來看的話有延長的一個必要或者說時效先讓它停止"},{"start":9387.722,"end":9409.299,"text":"相關的設計當然可以討論那你們看現在的一個規定有沒有辦法來銜接的上社會上發生的這些案件的一個統計數量站在衛福部跟保護被害人的立場我們當然是希望追溯權這個部分能夠做調整所以我們原則上尊重我們法務部的處理意見"},{"start":9410.253,"end":9416.724,"text":"嗯 所以你們沒有特別的看法我們支持你們支持 對那我想請那個 廳長喔 廳長是這有時候 案件 站在"},{"start":9421.246,"end":9440.008,"text":"法務部當然講我們的立場打擊犯罪有時候我們認為常常就是除惡勿進但是法律這一套邏輯裡面又有法的安定性的一個問題我不曉得司法院你們的看法是怎麼樣你說這個法律有時候未成年人"},{"start":9442.92,"end":9468.849,"text":"或者說甚至於是兒少發生了這樣的一個性侵案件我們從衛護部也好從監察院也好這樣的一個統計的一個報告裡面監察院調查裡面76%加害者是詮釋上不對等不管是詮釋不對等或者是未成年人那衛護部剛剛統計是說性侵被害人一半是未成年人那以這樣來看的話這個對被害人來講的話"},{"start":9470.51,"end":9487.668,"text":"你這個時效有一天我想告的時候啊這個對被案人來講法律的規定他太晚了時間上他太晚了可是有時候這個又不是他太晚的問題是你這個制度又太早把他給關門了我不曉得廳長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":9489.023,"end":9512.586,"text":"追溯權失效本身是要去平衡犯罪訴罪的要求國家刑法權的行使以及法律安定性這些衝突的利益如何去權衡的一個機制以未成年的性侵害被害人來講他會有幾個特徵跟一般的狀況可能不太一樣比如說他身心發展未成熟他可能受制於權力不對等"},{"start":9514.148,"end":9539.228,"text":"那所以說在他法律追逐權時效開始進行的時候他當下或是在一段的期間裡面法律有賦予他去告訴的這個機會或揭發這個犯罪的機會但是他事實上卻無法行使那以這個事實上的基礎來做立法權衡那我相信今天行政院跟司法院已經有一個會選版的草案"},{"start":9539.708,"end":9557.214,"text":"那今天委員總共提了29條的29案的這個草案那都是本於這樣的一個事實來做一個立法的規劃那我覺得依照這個事實基礎來做適當的制度權我相信這是一個合理而且可以期待的一個做法您也覺得合理"},{"start":9557.734,"end":9576.612,"text":"其實時效一般在講說時間經過了以後法律久了以後要讓他給安定性可是因為時間經過你如果沒有去做區分的話有的是基於權勢不對等有的是因為他還是小孩來不及告等到哪一天他長大了他要告的時候法律跟你說抱歉太晚了關門了就有這樣的一個問題就變成整個正義的一個追求我們又覺得好奇怪所以我看"},{"start":9584.717,"end":9586.478,"text":"聽長這邊的意識跟衛務部這邊的意識也認為說確實這個追溯權的一個時效是可以去做調整的"},{"start":9592.916,"end":9618.092,"text":"這部分是屬於立法形成的空間那當然要問問你們的意見啦 我也算沒有要立法形成現在大家陷入 大家都說是基於法的安定性啊然後跟整個被害者正義之間的一個平衡啊但是那個平衡 你如果講法的安定性沒有去做區分的話那個安定性只在講時間而已啊他沒有去區分說 權勢到底是不是不對等"},{"start":9619.072,"end":9638.062,"text":"這個個案裡面權勢是不是不對等然後被害人到底他是不是小孩子他整個心智的成熟方面來講的話那只因為時間經過了那基於法的安定性時效消滅檢察官只能不起訴處分哪怕你起訴了到法院去一樣不受理"},{"start":9639.366,"end":9666.372,"text":"會有這樣的問題啊是 兒少他這個身心發展未成熟那以及他可能跟大人之間因為年齡的差距跟實力的差距或是其他的關係他處於權力不對我相信這是大部這個幾乎是兒少心情悲哀可能遭通遊的一個現象這個論述大家都知道啦我是說你們態度啦態度我們是肯定這樣的一個立法行程因為如果給他的時間他沒有辦法行使那這個時間等於就是沒有給他的意思OK 阿哥很好 阿次長"},{"start":9667.092,"end":9688.924,"text":"那差不多了 我要回答這個修法裡面你們淘寶部的態度我們也是認為說跟這個大部分委員還有這樣我們司法院這邊的意見都是一樣肯定說我們這個未成年人遭到性侵害的部分上追溯權應該是讓他成年就20歲以後再開始所以這件事就是在向社會宣告這件事你不可以做"},{"start":9690.945,"end":9715.107,"text":"尤其是涉及到整個性侵的尤其是對這些未成年人的涉及到權勢不對等的哪怕有一天時效就已經經過了十年了經過了二十年了真不好意思因為當初權勢不對等可能你的下屬他不敢去跟你舉發小孩子因為心智不成熟他還沒有長大這樣我們就延長所以這個其實是社會上有共識的你意思也是這樣嗎好"},{"start":9716.548,"end":9722.4,"text":"那我簡單在另外進入 那個衛務部請回那兩位先留著一下就是說我們這個小額貪汙這個 我覺得今天是阿仲頭戲啦大案"},{"start":9728.391,"end":9748.23,"text":"涉及到整個結構性的一個問題啦有時候你說幾百塊幾千塊或一萬塊那貪污罪名是很重法重但是很多就是情輕的一個問題啦那個確實是值得去做差別的一個待遇啦其實我到本席一直認為這個修法"},{"start":9750.652,"end":9771.462,"text":"不是什麼放寬的問題啦是在講行為人的責任跟他不法的一個內涵有沒有符合比例原則啦貪汙 命很難聽啊違背職務的行為那當然可惡啊 殺啊但是跟不違背職務的行為或者是金額很小有時候常常金額 你去看那個證交法"},{"start":9772.352,"end":9798.789,"text":"那個規定金額本身就涵蓋了整個不法的一個內涵在裡面所以我是認為今天基於整個清潔輕微的部分提出這樣的一個修法社會上其實本來就是可以來做討論但是我們也很怕誤解其實這一次的一個修法裡面你說犯第四條到第六條之罪其實太陽就有13種不同的一個類型"},{"start":9800.258,"end":9814.868,"text":"這個過程要見還要加上情節輕微還有所得不法利益是在五萬元以下不是說不法利益五萬元以下這兩個很減輕免除其刑這個社會有時候常常會造成一個誤解啦也就是說你真正你要去減輕的話很抱歉喔也要通過法官那一關說情節它本身是輕微的就是它的動機啦危險性啦犯刑的強度啦外在的壓力啦"},{"start":9830.258,"end":9837.184,"text":"倒不是只有單純從整個財產所得的一個金額的一個大小所以這個方向我不曉得"},{"start":9839.443,"end":9861.532,"text":"司法院跟法務部這個地方 你們簡單來做一個回應這樣三檔大家在這裡說的時候 比較不太聽大家在那裡說 沒來沒去啦 你知不知道 次長你的態度跟委員講 委員講的我們都很贊成 事實上條文的這個部分四到六條他必須要這個清潔 清違 還要加上鎖鎖的跟不正利益在五萬元以下"},{"start":9861.932,"end":9884.531,"text":"他不是說一旦到五萬元以下就一定是這樣子他要給法院再有一個比例原則的一個判斷我們也很怕社會上誤解說我們在貪污這件事情上竟然是放寬了就是說貪五萬塊錢沒事我們不是這樣的一個意思其實無論是法務部我們還有各委員的意思都不是這樣子都是希望說在綜合評量上真正"},{"start":9885.131,"end":9901.848,"text":"是有情節輕微然後又是五萬塊以下的我們才會有這樣的一個讓法官有一個多的一個判決的一個良心的一個上面的一個這樣的一個判斷這樣講就很清楚啦你比如說我舉例啊三萬塊好啦可是你收了三萬塊你這個是違背職務的一個行為啊法官可能會旁邊的聽察可能認為說你這可惡啊"},{"start":9908.254,"end":9920.814,"text":"雖然是三萬塊你就是違背職務然後你這個不法內涵很高你這個對於整個行為人的一個責任然後分析整個綜合來判斷的話雖然是三萬塊啊還有可能是重判啊廳長不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9922.847,"end":9947.688,"text":"就是剛剛我們在討論的這一個問題基本上就是如何讓法官的裁量空間可以符合罪行相當怎麼樣定才是適當這樣的一個問題那其實判決條例4到6條它本來就是一個特別法它的量刑本來就是從重那12條它不是說直接減或免它是讓法官審酌他的情節是不是輕微"},{"start":9948.789,"end":9967.567,"text":"審酌他所圖得的利益綜合來考慮要不要減或免那減的話因為這條條文同時已經增加了免除期刑這樣的規定依照刑法666條可以減至剩下三分之一那甚至他也可以再搭配59條再做減刑所以他基本上他是讓法官可以有裁量的空間"},{"start":9968.248,"end":9986.076,"text":"那把它定清楚會比目前使用實質違法性這樣一個理論它能夠會有一個更一致的一個裁量的標準那這個對於整個罪行相當的這個理論的落實在實務上落實是有幫助的好 謝謝那今天就是綜合整個幾個版本的問題啦好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9992.698,"end":10007.404,"text":"楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在王育民委員王育民委員王育民委員不在接下來我們有請洪孟凱委員發言謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請我們次長麻煩馮次長"},{"start":10013.888,"end":10036.022,"text":"市長好市長本席很欣慰也感謝我們召委排案那也看到行政院在之前針對刑法80條跟83條也做草案的一個修正跟公告也出委員會也出院會喔我記得2024年5月27號一樣的位置一樣的委員會本席就在這邊當時的徐次長本席就針對刑法80條來去做修法討論"},{"start":10039.245,"end":10059.384,"text":"當時也有媒體報導本席在今年的4月更是率先提出就刑法80條跟83條的一個修法最重要就是我們看到了未成年性侵的案件在過去確實層出不窮而很大的一個關鍵是因為追溯期的起算而造成說有些未成年性侵的被害者他"},{"start":10060.084,"end":10081.982,"text":"過了這個追溯期而造成說他真的理解的時候他想要提出來但已經過了追溯期當時本席也把相關的數據資料都調出來那現在我們共同面對就是我們行政院的版本是希望就讓這個追溯期未成年性侵的追溯期從成年之後開始起算對不對20歲來請用麥克風好不好麥克風打開"},{"start":10085.131,"end":10111.838,"text":"我們的那個就是追溯權的部分是說這20歲以前不計那本席跟我們很多委員版本也類似大同小異但是今天年齡上就有的用成年成年現在是18成年是18或是20其實我們現在是用20所以20就是更多兩年的保障基本上是這樣子那本席今天有看到因為在提案說明的時候也聽到王育民委員以及有某些委員版本他更是認為是說是不是能夠放寬"},{"start":10112.958,"end":10141.42,"text":"倒是說這個更長的一個時間那我想也就叫我們現在法務部有一個態度因為本席的版本是成年之後但是本席也聽到我覺得也不是沒有道理為什麼這樣講因為未成年性侵我們已經調出很多資料他有可能是全市性侵熟人性侵或是這個他的照顧者那其實某種程度上他對於他自己要提出來去做這樣的一個"},{"start":10142.481,"end":10165.455,"text":"控訴其實相對來講他要承擔的壓力更多所以之前的統計數據男性未成年男性被性侵平均是25.9年他才可以提出女性23.1年那不管25.9年或23.1年這都是一個數字但重點在於是說我們能不能在這次修法的時候含括更廣的範圍"},{"start":10166.315,"end":10192.567,"text":"您怎麼看跟委員講其實追溯權的這個時效它是整體上的一個法律上的一個概念那所以基本上面來講它是整體在規劃的那但是我們這一次就如同這個委員就是說對於我們的這個未成年的這個保護其實您多次的有提出這樣的一個部分事實上這個部分也是本部高度關注的所以我們著重的是在於他未成年的狀態他的心智上"},{"start":10193.527,"end":10210.136,"text":"確實有有別於一般人的這樣的一個這個情況所以說我們是希望說把這個時間然後拉到說20歲以前不記錄但20歲以後他就會回復到我們原來的一個這樣的一個追溯權的一個概念他還是必須要兼顧到說我們在追溯權的這個"},{"start":10211.636,"end":10235.981,"text":"設計上他就是要兼顧到法律上的一個安定性也要避免說證據上將來在修正上也要有一個就是說不能說隔了太久以後其實也會造成了將來辦案各方面的一個困難所以這個部分就也跟外界說明清楚因為今天我們有委員提案說明的時候有提到說有民間團體的意見既然如此我們也在修法的過程裡面把它給釐清這也是本席給您這個說明的一個機會"},{"start":10238.061,"end":10253.357,"text":"次長你剛剛提到一個更重點也是本席所關注的就是說我們不是只是把時間延長以外您剛剛提到一個重點就是因為未成年被性侵他時間相對來講如果說他真的勇於發生的時候可能已經過了"},{"start":10255.098,"end":10283.617,"text":"這個一段時間了那收集的證據以及還原當時的現場跟甚至說要真的讓這個犯罪者能夠把他入罪這都需要我們更謹慎的一個過程也因此我們想是說在現在這次修法以外有沒有針對就是未成年如果說被性侵的話能夠有增加更專業或是更隱密或是更有效的一個支持讓他能夠去"},{"start":10285.038,"end":10307.755,"text":"真的把這個事情給說明清楚或說讓他能夠去理解就過去也許小時候的時候他不一定知道說這個叫做性侵但長大之後懂事之後或說經濟自主之後他願意站出來來去揭發但是在這個過程裡面就變成是說他需要有更隱密有專人的窗口有專業的窗口能夠讓他去做"},{"start":10308.676,"end":10337.482,"text":"進一步的一個溝通或是說了解那這個部分能不能有一個配套措施是 跟委員報告您提到的這一個部分就是說有關於這個就是這個兒少的部分的保護事實上我們各部會都會來做那法務部這邊針對於說這類型的辦案案件其實我們有專屬的檢察官那針對於相關的一個怎麼偵辦這類案件上怎麼樣像是有一些要讓人家溫馨談話室各方面我們會有一個制定一個流程"},{"start":10337.862,"end":10366.103,"text":"那針對這個部分上委員提到這部分我們回去也會再宣導再去做更加溫暖已經制定了嗎還是本來就有本來就有那本席特別提醒就是說這個現在就是我們看到這次修法過程不是只是要把它延長而已更重要的是希望能夠透過這樣子的延長追溯期的就成年起算追溯期的過程能夠更有效而且更專業的能夠協助被害者把過去他所受到的"},{"start":10366.883,"end":10386.77,"text":"性侵經驗或者說受到性侵的這些相關的犯罪能夠怎麼樣把它給完整釐清變成是在法律這個檢察官起訴的一個關鍵的一個部分這一點就要再把它給做更詳細所以是不是也可以給本席相關的資料就是說我們目前正在做那以及有沒有不足的部分透過這次修法的時候再做一個檢視可以嗎"},{"start":10387.83,"end":10403.457,"text":"回去會把相關的一些資料的部分再提供委員這邊好那我們本席等到收到資料之後我們也再修法註挑審查的時候我們再來做進一步的討論好的謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷委員那接下來我們有請范雲委員發言"},{"start":10414.113,"end":10415.056,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉有請馮陳次長好 請馮次長"},{"start":10422.115,"end":10437.445,"text":"次長早安我想先跟您說明一下我從2022年就持續關注未成年性侵的追溯期修法你可以看到我這邊提供的記者會、公聽會之外我2023年也對我們陳建仁院長還有當時法務部部長總質詢"},{"start":10444.929,"end":10462.921,"text":"請他們能夠啟動修法的工程我自己在2024年也提出我的修法版本所以我今天是蠻肯定行政院通過法務部的刑法80條的修正草案覺得這是一個被害人保護的開始"},{"start":10464.202,"end":10485.586,"text":"可是今天跟您質詢其實是想跟您提被害人保護除了這一步之外有更多的配套要努力我想這邊我自己比較關注的就是要努力的部分先跟您討論一下犯罪被害人權益保障法目前是重傷補償金是80萬元到160萬元性侵害補償金是10萬元到40萬元"},{"start":10492.367,"end":10493.848,"text":"那想請問次長您覺得這中間的落實高達70萬到120萬這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":10519.116,"end":10548.516,"text":"是跟委員講我們這個犯罪被害人的部分這個草案好像在預告中所以我們在相關上的一個部分我們會針對大家的一個意見再來做一個判斷那我想那您市長您個人覺得這個差距性侵害到底是不是一個重傷害他為什麼跟重傷的補償金高達70萬到120萬的差距這個確實是說如果對性侵害的一個補償金的這個部分上是可以有不同的一個"},{"start":10549.276,"end":10577.126,"text":"因為性侵害事實上在心理生理上據說有各種的研究它其實是個嚴重的傷害我們知道刑法的重傷其實第六條有這個空間就是身體或健康前面講的比較是具體的就是說肢體器官等等但是第六條其實是有留下這個空間那我這邊給您看一個報導者的深入報導"},{"start":10578.166,"end":10599.993,"text":"就是也是童年時期遭遇性侵的那他會出現驚恐、易怒、自言自語及反覆思考死亡等嚴重創傷那這是我們所看到的其實如果用刑法第十條重傷來講的話那他事實上是符合的那甚至有些可能是很難治癒的傷害"},{"start":10601.593,"end":10621.284,"text":"那這邊也想跟次長講未成年性侵案很多都是發生在國家機構裡面那以我最近關切的不管是國小棒球教練的性侵案最近2026年的那去年我有參與處理陳情案的國立戲曲學院的郎師性侵案"},{"start":10621.884,"end":10634.883,"text":"這些都是一對多還有國中自由班的2022年的還有南投俄哨所以我認為呢國家有責任為受害者做更多這句話次長應該可以認同吧可以認同"},{"start":10636.866,"end":10655.463,"text":"那我想跟您提一下其他國家的例子以紐西蘭為例他們把性犯罪跟重傷害一視同仁國家就提供一樣高額的補償金你看紐西蘭2001年的這個意外傷害補償法就等於是我們的這個相關的法那它"},{"start":10656.744,"end":10674.404,"text":"最後這個定義這是我們辦公室自己從紐西蘭的據說立法院相關的資訊找出來的個人傷害就包含生理損傷與因性暴力而生的心理損傷那一次性補償金高達最高可達新台幣190萬"},{"start":10676.626,"end":10700.74,"text":"我想這個是紐西蘭的部分除了這個之外紐西蘭他們也涵蓋多方面我們剛講的是金額譬如說他的一次性補償金之外如果是職業有相關影響的話那還有每週獲得一些補償金職業復原計劃等如果是諮商服務的話特別提供給性侵害的受害者"},{"start":10701.4,"end":10719.671,"text":"就是國家會給付部分的資商費就是我們剛剛看到的一次補償金之外有些資商服務可能會高達好多年那國家也會部分給付那我想這個部分都是我們值得學習的那不是只有紐西蘭"},{"start":10720.851,"end":10739.72,"text":"我這裡還找了荷蘭跟澳洲荷蘭也針對心理創傷賠償最高可達新台幣130萬那你當然說荷蘭可能就是生活費用的比數是比較高的但是換算為就是就薪水各方面來講的話台灣還是低非常的多"},{"start":10740.6,"end":10765.24,"text":"那澳洲的話更高他的國家補償計畫就是針對就是兒少性侵案高達320萬因為在兒少的時候受傷的話其實對終身的影響更大那還有320萬台幣之外還有心理諮商跟資源服務那今年我跟在場的張雅玲委員我們有去拜訪這個皇家調查委員會後來"},{"start":10767.502,"end":10789.058,"text":"幫忙執行的那個教會機構他們有告訴我們就是他們所做的這方面是如何的就是希望能夠以受害者為中心那我想今天我的要求很簡單是不是可以去嚴寧提高好嗎就是一個月內可不可以給本席相關的報告"},{"start":10790.06,"end":10810.095,"text":"好 那個就是說跟委員 先謝謝委員因為您長時期就是對於我們這樣的一個這個兒少的一個保護事實上就是本部隊這樣委員的這樣的一個這樣的一個就是關注我們也都很重視那事實上您剛剛有提到很多的一些案件其實在我們看了以來我們也是覺得說"},{"start":10811.115,"end":10828.066,"text":"檢察官的角度 像台中的性侵害的狀況我們也都是要求要盡速 盡嚴的去處理事實上這個案件後來也是判了非常的重在很多次這樣的狀況 到有期徒刑加起來是400多年"},{"start":10829.807,"end":10844.756,"text":"那我們在針對說這樣的一個案子上面我們都會要求檢察官在對於犯罪犯罪人這個的部分要嚴加這個禁訴禁言的處理對於犯罪被害人的這個部分上我們也一定要盡力的去保護他"},{"start":10845.416,"end":10863.076,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這一個有關於說重傷跟這個性侵害心理傷痛其實我想被性侵害而造的這種心理傷痛這可能是真的是非常的大家都知道那個是非常的嚴重很痛苦的這部分金額的部分我們會回去再做一個妥適上的研究再跟委員這邊做報告好嗎"},{"start":10863.436,"end":10890.058,"text":"那我想再補充一下就是整體的性侵害性暴力的傷害都應該要比現在得到的補償更高那針對兒少的話我們剛剛前幾位都有講到平均二十幾年才說的出口那二十幾年其實心理上的傷害是蠻大的好嗎那所以請就是法務部一個月內給我相關的報告那你們正好正在預告中我想這是一個很好的一個修正補充的時期可以嗎是"},{"start":10897.604,"end":10911.214,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時所要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":10914.734,"end":10927.59,"text":"委員蔡奇昌、黃潔、吳佩義、林倩琪、吳宗憲所提的書面質詢都列入記錄並刊登公報也請相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":10930.609,"end":10946.245,"text":"那麼接下來我們就進行討論事項先於開會通知單第二到四案因為是進行詢答所以我們就請議事人員直接宣讀第一案的提案條文宣讀的時間大約一分鐘左右"},{"start":10948.195,"end":10971.764,"text":"如果有修正動議或是附帶決議提出的話也請儘速將書面送交主席台以利應發現場進行討論那麼審查法案的時候也請主要的列席機關代表就移到主席台的正前方首長席的位置就坐宣讀的時候如果有已經收到修正動議也請一併宣讀宣讀後我們就進行討論那麼現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":10977.518,"end":10995.206,"text":"討論事項第一案 賓案審查委員賴瑞龍等二十人拟據 貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案等六案 請參與條文對照表委員賴瑞龍等提案第十二條 犯第四條制第六條之罪 情節輕微而其所得或所圖得"},{"start":10995.966,"end":11016.275,"text":"之財務或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者得減輕其刑至其刑之三分之一或免除其刑其餘未修正委員您見其等提案第十二條除第一項墨具修正為減輕或免除其刑外其餘未修正委員蔡依瑜等提案第十二條除第一項墨具增列在新台幣"},{"start":11017.355,"end":11040.585,"text":"一萬元以下者減輕或免除其刑及第二項墨具增列其在新台幣一萬元以下者減輕或免除其刑外其餘未修正委員王洪蔚等提案第十二條及委員翁曉琳等提案第十二條均同委員林倩琪等提案委員林思敏等提案第十二條除第一項墨具修正為因疑刑法本文之罪名論處外其餘未修正宣讀案"},{"start":11043.387,"end":11065.596,"text":"好 那麼我們條文已經宣讀完畢那現在就進行討論事項第一案的並案審查貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案總共有六個案那麼由於本案條文只是僅有一條而且我們經過上午的詢答請問在場委員我們是不是就可以審略大體討論然後直接進入逐條審查"},{"start":11066.896,"end":11094.458,"text":"好 謝謝那麼我們現在就審查貪污之罪條例第12條條文修正草案繼續進行逐條討論 妨礙修正總共是只有處理一條第12條有委員賴瑞龍等20人提案委員林倩琦等22人提案委員蔡易瑜等16人提案委員王宏威等17人提案委員翁曉琳等17人提案委員林思敏等17人提案"},{"start":11097.25,"end":11101.668,"text":"那麼現在我們就請在場委員看有沒有要再發表意見"},{"start":11107.307,"end":11128.667,"text":"我們看大家有沒有意見因為剛剛我們經過討論而且法務部跟司法院看起來是認為林倩琪委員 王宏威委員和翁曉琳委員因為我們三個版本是一致的只是增加了一個可以免除期刑這樣的一個版本"},{"start":11129.427,"end":11153.373,"text":"就司法院跟法務部他們基本上也都是支持這樣的一個修法所以如果說看看大家的意見如何還是我們請法務部跟司法院再表達一次意見就是我們現在針對這幾個版本是 謝謝那個剛剛就是委員講到的說我們本部的這個版本確實是跟這個"},{"start":11154.977,"end":11169.839,"text":"委員的這個是一致然後但是我們現在因為就是目前上面來講因為他是還跟第11條6-1的這個部分上同樣都在行政院這邊那因為那個司法院的這一個"},{"start":11170.82,"end":11193.762,"text":"就是會銜的部分在禮拜五才過去那事實上以本部的這樣的一個立場上是希望說能夠在行政院再給我們一個時間去行政院這邊做一個最終討論出來的院版這個部分會比較就是說這個詳盡跟完整那當然如果說要今天就要做這樣的一個討論的話當然我們也是尊重大院的一個立場以上"},{"start":11195.728,"end":11215.319,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼因為剛剛其實我們在詢答的時候司法院廳長也有回覆就說你們的4月10號的回函就回覆給行政院的意見基本上也都是支持原來法務部的版本並沒有有什麼特別不同的意見"},{"start":11216.423,"end":11244.712,"text":"是嗎 關於刑法八十條這個部分我們支持不是刑法八十條 貪污自罪條例第二條報告主席那關於貪污自罪條例的部分那本院書面意見部分針對委員賴瑞榮跟委員林思敏這個提據之修正草案我們有提出一些建議文字那其餘的提案我們都尊重大院的審議結果你們剛講的四月十號回覆的那是刑法八十條 是的但是那個刑法八十條我們今天並不處理"},{"start":11245.712,"end":11259.926,"text":"所以對於貪污自罪條例的這個案子的第十二條的修法案應該司法院也沒有什麼意見嗎對 只有針對就如同主席剛剛所述的這三個部分我們沒有意見好的報告我們這"},{"start":11261.628,"end":11281.08,"text":"貪污自罪條例第12條我們今天只討論貪污自罪條例第12條所以主席妳現在採的是妳跟蘇慶泉委員那個版本嗎沒有 跟林倩琪還有王宏威委員我們三個人的版本是一模一樣所以妳的提案就跟他們都一樣的所以聚焦在翁委員的這個版本"},{"start":11282.561,"end":11308.395,"text":"對 林倩琪王紅衛跟翁曉琳委員版本就都是只有增加減輕或免除期刑只有增加或免除期刑這個部分來 請我有一個小小的疑問啦就是說因為到底在減輕或免除期刑前面需不需要加一個德呢還是就是直接因為通常之前有些時候會看到德這樣子所以我想要請教法務部的意見這樣子"},{"start":11310.086,"end":11333.284,"text":"這個不用反覆喔 你的減輕跟免除即行是B如果德還有財良呢 這減輕沒有放德就是陰囉這怎麼好笑 這本來就是沒有沒有沒有 沒有寫德就是陰囉"},{"start":11339.668,"end":11340.288,"text":"沒有鷹也是鷹"},{"start":11353.148,"end":11377.35,"text":"好那看看有沒有其他委員有意見還是法務部還要再說明嗎就是因為我們剛剛就在講說這個第12條現在他是行政院在第三次的一個審議因為我們是以行政體系的立場上我們這個今天都還是希望說委員們能夠讓我們那個討論最後出一個最終版因為其實也是跟委員的版本是一樣的"},{"start":11377.81,"end":11385.536,"text":"那但是本部的立場是說如果說今天委員們大家因為都覺得說這事情是要今天的話那我們本部也是尊重大院的立場"},{"start":11389.056,"end":11417.427,"text":"好 那莊瑞雄委員也沒有意見那麼因為事實上其實版本都一樣而且保護部這個案子已經等了兩年到現在行政約會還沒有通過真的不知道要等到什麼時候既然大家都沒有意見的話那麼我們是不是就依照林倩琦委員 王洪威委員 翁曉琳委員的這個版本就增加或免除其刑的這幾個字的版本我們就可以今天審查完畢"},{"start":11419.758,"end":11445.347,"text":"有沒有意見好那就謝謝莊召委那本案是否還需要交付黨團協商呢就不需要了本案就不需要交由黨團協商那月會討論時就由翁曉琳召集委員出席說明因為今天也沒有附帶決議"},{"start":11447.422,"end":11473.005,"text":"那麼所以我們本案就審查完據本案審查完據拟據審查報告那就提起院會公決本案也不需要交由黨團協商那院會討論時就由翁曉琳委員出席說明然後條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語就授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":11476.24,"end":11490.208,"text":"好的那麼本次會議議程所立的事項我們就進行到此為止那沒有處理的部分就做如下決議令定期繼續審查那就現在散會也謝謝大家今天討論很順利謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}