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希望能夠達成共識第二題呢 就是大家都非常關切的軍購特別條例那我們現在依序進行來協商也要聽一下各黨團的法規意見好 請陳總召發言國民黨團請準備 好不好我在這邊先有一個問題 我想請教院長"},{"start":3718.226,"end":3734.474,"text":"我們的中央政府總預算會形成現在的僵局要由我們院長來主持協商我想所以我們也了解院長的用心但是今天我們對總預算的協商目前"},{"start":3735.959,"end":3763.289,"text":"行政院 院本部剛剛我聽到我們院長的介紹只有我們主計嘛 主計總署院本部行政院沒有派任何人員來練習來參與那我先請教今天我們的預算會形成這樣的僵局最主要是行政院賴政府的一切作為"},{"start":3764.54,"end":3786.805,"text":"所以我們才會有這樣的預算僵局那今天院長要協商我們台灣民眾黨我們也同意也很樂意院長願意來解決這樣的僵局但是行政院都沒有派人來那我們過去針對預算這樣的一個問題我們有提出了相當多的一個意見"},{"start":3788.291,"end":3809.566,"text":"那我不曉得今天在場任期的不管是部長或是主席處能夠做一些正面的回應嗎我在這邊先提出這樣的疑問我想陳主席長就是有在預算方面相當大的代表性您是希望是行政院的秘書長至少也要秘書長"},{"start":3813.208,"end":3831.407,"text":"行政院都不派人 那我們來協商中央政府總預算那我剛才已經表明了這樣好不好 親同學您意見表達完畢那我在想是說 你要不要把你現在最關切的問題很清楚 扼要講出來"},{"start":3832.208,"end":3850.265,"text":"除了一部分就是屬於行政院要派一個院本部的一個位階的第二部分才是真正的實質部分就是台灣民眾黨現在最關切的是什麼造成今天總預算的延宕這一點可能要講清楚好嗎好 針對第二部分由我來說明我想台灣民眾黨針對這個總預算的部分其實我們"},{"start":3853.628,"end":3873.903,"text":"也提過非常非常多次啦那也就是說基本上我們對於上次行政院提出來的這個預算基於我們上個會期通過的兩部法基本上包括軍人的這個待遇那個替代率的調整跟所謂的這個警察人員的退休的部分"},{"start":3876.001,"end":3891.06,"text":"這個基本上並沒有涵蓋在這個預算裡面所以基本上才造成這樣的僵局所以台灣民眾黨這邊還是重申今天在做協商的時候希望雖然這個行政院對於這個通過的法律有一些不同的見解"},{"start":3892.601,"end":3918.973,"text":"這部事情是有附屬的只是他們預計要去實現我想在這個還沒有確定之前我希望今天的協商還是可以達到一個共識就是行政院這邊可以把這個我們過去通過這兩個法令裡面通過了這個預算的部分能夠編在這個總預算裡面以上好 謝謝台灣民眾黨團比較清楚的列出來了關切的要點我們現在請國民黨團發言好嗎"},{"start":3922.401,"end":3944.234,"text":"好 林沛翔署長請發言好 院長 各位在場的委員們今天的討論其實指的不是預算問題而已其實是一個更根本的問題那我們到底還要不要依法行政 依法審查身為立法委員 我們當然有責任通過法案審查預算但也正是因為我們是立法委員我們更沒有資格違法"},{"start":3945.034,"end":3972.627,"text":"一份不符合法定程序的總預算案如果我們照單全收那不叫有效率那叫失職那不叫配合國政那叫破壞制度所以這真的不是黨派之間的問題這是憲政分際的問題是法治國最基本的底線問題從去年8月到現在時間已經過了這麼久行政院卻仍然不願意依法完整編列預算把立法院已經三讀通過的法案排除在外這不只是程序問題"},{"start":3973.627,"end":3999.377,"text":"這已經直接影響到人民的生活該有的民生預算被卡住該推動的政策被延宕然後現在反過來說是立法院在擋預算這有點像是說考試不交考卷然後怪老師不給分數還順便說隔壁同學影響他發揮那過去八年老實講完全執政或許讓某些人已經習慣了一些模式行政院怎麼提 立法院就怎麼過政策怎麼寫 立委就怎麼按"},{"start":4000.057,"end":4026.665,"text":"但抱歉著是今非現在時代已經時空背景不同立法院不是行政院的立法區立法委員也不是橡皮圖章如果我們今天連最基本的程序正義都守不住那我們有什麼資格談民生談改革談進步而且更遺憾的在這段協商的過程裡面在野黨的立場其實非常單純我們一再重申撇開黨派優先照顧民生我們並不是為了卡而卡"},{"start":4027.165,"end":4041.808,"text":"更不是因為反對而反對相反的我們提出了很多具體正面的建議啊譬如說我們可以先就已經符合法定程序沒有爭議的民生預算優先處理讓地方補助社福支出基礎建設都不受影響"},{"start":4042.609,"end":4059.254,"text":"或者說針對行政院尚未依法補正的部分定出明確的時程讓程序回到正軌而不是無限期拖延這些都是解方而且是可以立即執行的解方但是很可惜我們現在看到行政院我們執政單位的目前選擇比較像是說"},{"start":4061.815,"end":4082.181,"text":"把責任先丟出去我們再來談解決方案那甚至有一種奇怪的邏輯行政院可以不先依法編列預算但是立法院一定要先違法審查否則就是不顧民生這種說法如果成立那未來制度就變成說規則是參考用的責任是別人的那我們還需要法律做什麼"},{"start":4083.101,"end":4100.06,"text":"其實我們都很清楚我想三黨都很清楚人民要的很簡單不是誰輸誰贏而是事情能不能做生活能不能過所以我們今天的呼籲也很簡單第一請行政院回到依法行政的軌道儘速提出符合法定程序的總預算案"},{"start":4100.6,"end":4128.223,"text":"第二讓立法院可以回到應有的角色依法審查而不是在違法與背書之間做選擇第三朝野一起把民生擺在第一位用制度解決問題而不是用情緒製造對立我們總預算是可以討論的可以調整的甚至可以吵架的但依法這件事情不應該變成可以協商的選項不然哪一天連守法我們都要來表決通過的時候那我們好像真的太忙了一點以上"},{"start":4129.401,"end":4132.643,"text":"謝謝林書遠發言,我們接著請民進黨團蔡總召請發言謝謝院長我想一開始好像又進入到一些程序的問題其實"},{"start":4149.758,"end":4159.064,"text":"民進黨最贊成要依法行政、要依法審查、要依法編列預算所以其實我不是太了解林佩祥委員所提到"},{"start":4160.711,"end":4184.022,"text":"行政院哪裡沒有依法編列預算這個我不是太懂那如果我的理解根據民眾黨團剛剛所提到的理解應該是指說立法院三讀通過包括軍人待遇條例裡面要給軍人加薪包括對警消的這些福利待遇等等"},{"start":4185.302,"end":4211.764,"text":"那正如同我講的,憲法很清楚嘛立法院不得替行政院增加預算我想這個大家都清楚嘛所以立法院增加了預算要叫行政院去執行這個本身就違憲那我講違憲可能國民黨也不同意那沒有關係,我們就讓憲法法庭來做決定所以首先我們必須釐清它其實沒有叫違法編列"},{"start":4212.945,"end":4237.973,"text":"雙方在這個問題上面到底立法院可不可以替行政院增加預算民進黨認為違憲國民黨跟民眾黨認為沒有那沒有關係國家有憲法可以來解決兩院之間的爭端所以首先我們必須釐清或許他現在比較公允的講他正處於這樣的一個階段當中所以這個我想必須要來討論那民進黨態度也很清楚"},{"start":4239.619,"end":4263.051,"text":"特別是我一直在強調這幾個月來我一直在表達善意也就是說民進黨黨團也好行政院也好對於軍人的加薪或者對於警消的這些相關的福利其實是我們很願意支持的民進黨對於軍人的加薪各位如果翻開歷史都知道我想"},{"start":4264.943,"end":4290.844,"text":"從蔡英文總統一直到賴清德總統這十年來我們對軍公教我們是四次調薪調薪的幅度是14%那對於軍人遠的就不講了光114年我們的五項的這個職務佳績就它依照那個繁重程度啊或者是不是離島啦山區啦我們都給予繁重給予這個佳績這個就花了國家146.4億"},{"start":4293.886,"end":4323.115,"text":"的這個提高軍人的福利所以我的意思是說如果國民黨民進黨團覺得還是不夠本席其實也非常同意因為軍人太重要面對對岸的威脅怎麼樣讓軍人待遇更好怎麼樣讓他們在用實質在這個金錢上面福利上面給予他們保家衛國捍衛中華民國的這樣的一個辛苦我們給予他更多的福利其實民進黨團都是支持"},{"start":4323.835,"end":4343.878,"text":"行政院左院長他也表示跟賴總統都表示他們都是支持的那所以我們可不可以採取一個不要違憲的方式也就是說大家如果都覺得他們很辛苦在某一個程度上應該加薪或者增加他們的福利那我們應該做了一個這樣的決議然後我們請行政院提出版本"},{"start":4344.719,"end":4368.821,"text":"因為立法院不可以自己幫人家加預算嘛那行政院提了一個版本那我們朝野三黨大家再坐下來討論看這樣的版本適不適合或者哪裡該做調整的我想這個叫做善意這個是在合法合憲的情況底下民進黨團很誠懇的表達了這個善意所以對於這些加薪什麼的我覺得很簡單就我們把總預算付為"},{"start":4371.724,"end":4380.603,"text":"民進黨團也在這裡表達立場我們很願意很願意很願意講三次因為很重要來讓我們的警消"},{"start":4382.269,"end":4403.979,"text":"這個軍公教都一起在整個福利這個照顧他們的這個架構底下我們來增加他們的福利甚至速度來調心但這個都必須要跟行政院討論除了微信的問題之外我們也希望讓他不要有相對剝奪就盡量我們設計立法院來討論然後行政院提出案子我們來盡量讓"},{"start":4406.291,"end":4433.158,"text":"依照他們的勤務或者他們的性質的不同勤務的繁重不同性質的不同然後都一起來討論那也不要說只有處理軍人那你讓我們的公務同仁這麼多的公務人員他有這個產生相對好像這個國家只有對軍人比較好那其他的公務同仁也沒有得到這個相對的回應或照顧我覺得這個也不是太好"},{"start":4433.698,"end":4461.28,"text":"所以他必須要在國家財政預算可以吻合前提我們都要照顧軍公教或者警消然後呢這個合理性跟他的公平性都得到照顧這個情況底下我覺得大家都怎麼會反對做這個事情呢但是立法院自己決定這個就是我們都很清楚這個就是違憲嘛所以國民黨是國會最大黨民眾黨支持國民黨也形成了這個"},{"start":4462.646,"end":4490.412,"text":"執政必須要尊重嘛因為這是民意但是這個民意大家也不要忘記行政權的賴總統也是民意選出來的所以民意跟民意之間有衝突要嘛我們就請憲法釋憲第二個憲法規定要怎麼解決這個爭端這個爭端就是不然就要行政院我們大家對行政院提這個不信任案然後國會重新來改選回到問民意這個就是我們中華民國憲法時刻不管你支不支持、贊不贊成"},{"start":4491.872,"end":4505.745,"text":"你要維護中華民國憲法此刻解決爭端其實就是兩個方法嘛那所以我們在這兩個方法大家都不願意做那我們還是回到議場上就我們也釋出善意但同樣的我們也希望"},{"start":4507.77,"end":4522.643,"text":"這個國民黨跟民眾黨也釋出善意讓預算可以賦為審查否則大家在這邊炒這些東西此刻各地方政府所需要的預算人民所需要RR逮捕的這些預算其實都是卡在立法院嘛"},{"start":4523.303,"end":4549.277,"text":"所以我的具體就我的發言其實一開始我就很有誠意的提出民進黨團的想法那這個想法一定程度我也跟行政院長行政院溝通過他們也來支持我們跟黨團同樣的想法所以是不是請國民黨跟民眾黨我們就一起啦以蒼生為念大家共同來支持讓預算在禮拜五可以來復違那預算復違之後也不是通過嘛復違之後"},{"start":4551.319,"end":4570.6,"text":"這個兩黨可以再發揮強力監督的方式這個該可以做的我們緊迫讓他做不可以做的部分呢那我們該刪除那當然他就應該被討論被刪除所以我的想法是這個樣子所以在這個今天的這個朝野協商開始之前我先把我的立場跟想法跟我的善意把它提出來謝謝"},{"start":4571.621,"end":4581.262,"text":"好 謝謝蔡總統很清楚的說明立場那陳組織長請表達一下意見好嗎大家現在都眼巴巴看著你你講完之後我們三個黨團要用休息時間來開始進行討論 請"},{"start":4584.815,"end":4599.459,"text":"院長還有各位總召還有各位那個委員好那我們這裡是針對立法院115年度總預算案的一個說明那112年度沒有審議通過他有2992億不能動之那新興有1017億那在那個"},{"start":4608.061,"end":4630.916,"text":"就計劃延續的部分有1805億還有第一預備金第二預備金有170億那雖然立法院有先行同意動之718億但是因為他人據高度不確定性如果說同意暫時動之那行政部門將來有所刪減那就會有所顧慮所以立法院"},{"start":4631.976,"end":4658.843,"text":"這個部分沒有同意動資的2274億裡面呢我們有包括就是國防部的一個裝備維修、油料等的一個籌補還有重大的一個交通建設等那再來再談到就是說我們沒有編列軍人待遇和警察人員條例的這個部分因為人事總署也有派代表來是不是要請他再補充但是我們就整個一個來講的話"},{"start":4661.083,"end":4678.454,"text":"這個部分因為它整個涉及到那個軍警交職並用的一個機關薪資結構整個失衡對公務人員退休補習也出現不合理的一個差別大意所以為了顧及不同公務人員之間的深厚和公平還有橫貧性所以我們針對這個部分暫時"},{"start":4680.575,"end":4696.077,"text":"我們等到釋憲的結果再來編列並不是不編列那我們也支持院裡面也支持就是說能夠盡量能夠把總預算來付為讓我們整個預算能夠順利進行 以上 謝謝主委長容我提醒你一下剛剛蔡"},{"start":4697.879,"end":4714.3,"text":"蔡其昌、蔡總召所提出的那個解決方案,提出一個主決議的方式,您站在主席立場,您的意見是什麼?因為這個非常關鍵,他提出一個solution,您有沒有意見?我們接下來再請人事總署發言,您對這一點,這個是非常關鍵的,請表達看法好嗎?"},{"start":4718.546,"end":4742.059,"text":"解決方案必須在院裡頭裡面來做一個裁定那本身的並不是說金額的問題,而是整個結構的一個問題所以這個部分還是請任總來做解釋因為這並不是說,所以我們整個是針對這個部分我們還是請那個是不是可以先行復違然後再來研擬方案,大家共同來研擬方案"},{"start":4743.307,"end":4766.781,"text":"我感覺到卓院長上身的感覺很多那種跟卓院長講的都如出一轍沒關係 那個請人事總書以及權序部要表達一下意見好嗎陳慶榮總召你稍待一下我們請行政部門報告完好嗎好 請我們張副人事長請院長各位委員大家好那人事總書這邊就是其實剛剛這個"},{"start":4769.13,"end":4783.889,"text":"蔡總召其實也講了很多,我們仁總署之前我們在委員會的時候,我們蘇仁長也是有特別強調,幫共同爭取應該有的權利,其實是我們自己本身的職責"},{"start":4786.943,"end":4796.651,"text":"就是之前剛剛講的兩個條例因為行政院已經在釋憲當中當然最後會尊重這個憲法法庭的這個決定那該變的預算就應該要變那在"},{"start":4803.654,"end":4832.814,"text":"這個時刻我們還是會建議總預算先讓他復為蔡總剛剛說明的行政院如果有行政院相關的部會一般公務員的預算是我們人總處我們也一直在研擬我們之前也有講我們也在蒐集各種財經的指標我們方案也一直在研擬我們會按照正規的程序我們會提到行政院"},{"start":4834.835,"end":4852.969,"text":"對全面性的公務員的待遇 軍公教的待遇的調整的部分我們會處理在軍人跟警消的部分 我跟大家報告就是從105年到現在 軍人的部分其實已經年增預算大概210億光去年"},{"start":4856.471,"end":4871.938,"text":"光去年各種包括志願役的佳績包括其他各種類型的戰鬥佳績或者是電針佳績等等這些其實也增加了170.9億那是年增的預算"},{"start":4872.538,"end":4894.986,"text":"那警校的部分大家當然也都很清楚,因為各黨派的委員其實都很關心嘛那現在最近各地方政府也都有一直有在對外說明就是行政院這邊其實三月的時候已經核定了這個警察的這個繁重勤務的加成包括刑事加成都調高,包括消防的這個危險加成也都調高"},{"start":4897.948,"end":4900.734,"text":"總計大概一年會增加31億的經費年度就會增加31億的經費那其他各種類型的"},{"start":4908.179,"end":4933.58,"text":"淨彩的需要等等的其實包括工程人員包括這個學校老師等等其實我們各種不同的類別也都在持續在做這個調心的一個動作那如果今天大家有共識把總預算復違那接下來我們也會跟行政院各部會對這個公務員的這個薪資的調整的部分"},{"start":4934.381,"end":4962.586,"text":"能夠按照我們一般的程序來做處理 以上好 謝謝張副任市長我們請全序部的黃市長請表達一點 謝謝院長 各位委員全序部在這個案子跟我們部裡有關的就是警察條例的修正那我們是負責警察條例修正之後退休警消人員月退休金所得的差額的審定"},{"start":4963.286,"end":4992.706,"text":"那將近有四萬件要重新審定的部分我們全區部已經完成這些退休警消人員四萬件的重新審定那重新審定之後因為有一些退休金所得替代率的差額因為他是依照警察條例來的所以就是警察條例也寫說是行政院這邊編列預算來支應這個差額的部分那這個部分因為涉及預算的編列我們全區部就尊重行政院的權責以上報告"},{"start":4999.208,"end":5021.456,"text":"我剛剛有表達今天剛剛我聽到我們民進黨蔡其昌總召的發言如果剛剛他的發言內容是由行政院院長還是院本部的出席人員的發言跟我們蔡其昌總召發言是一致的"},{"start":5022.421,"end":5041.833,"text":"我覺得今天韓院長就跟我們台灣民眾黨國民黨一樣我們非常尊重院長大家一起願意來解決預算的這樣的一個僵局我們今天看到的剛剛包括我們全序部也提了主席總長也講了"},{"start":5046.007,"end":5061.44,"text":"718億的新增計畫新型的預算立法院已經三讀通過請行政院可以來執行土地總署也把公文都給各行政單位了"},{"start":5062.731,"end":5084.092,"text":"但是行政院院長不同意之用 不同意之用今天如果行政院院長還是行政院的代表在這裡說我們有什麼方案可以來趕快解決 趕快來處理讓民眾需要的TPAS這些"},{"start":5085.925,"end":5099.554,"text":"防水這些災害必須要緊急使用的這些預算可以來先行使用我想今天主席總書在這裡他都沒辦法決定能不能用了"},{"start":5100.629,"end":5118.959,"text":"我相信蔡奇昌總召我們的民進黨也沒辦法決定說可以用不可以用那今天行政院派人出席整個這個協商包括剛剛我們全序部所提我們的這個警校這個"},{"start":5122,"end":5148.099,"text":"所得替代重新審定他們也完成這個查爾德審定了那要不要變預算要不要做假預算來編列也不是全系不可以決定的也不是今天在場的主席總長可以決定的行政院呢行政院呢行政院長行政院的代表呢我們今天要來共同解決預算的僵局"},{"start":5149.659,"end":5167.712,"text":"我講得很難聽,行政院就跟我們立法院洗一眼啊,他連派員都不用啊院長,我們很尊重你,我們都願意一起來解決這樣的僵局但是行政院不出席,我覺得院長先休息我們討論一下,好不好"},{"start":5170.882,"end":5185.005,"text":"補充介紹一下除了黨團幹部之外有陳永康委員、桃園選區劉許廷委員、林柱英委員、嘉義選區陳冠廷委員一起來參加現在黨團幹部要二輪發言請稍微等一下,麻煩你再等"},{"start":5187.876,"end":5202.623,"text":"我只是回應一下他就好了 簡單 簡單這個沒問題那個青龍總召 跟你報告一下 也跟你做個回應這個院長的開會通知裡面 我們都很尊重院長"},{"start":5203.083,"end":5223.944,"text":"那院長的開會通知裡面是沒有行政院啦這一點跟你說明一下啦因為你一直罵我就一直替院長感到擔心因為看起來你都箭頭都指向他因為沒有啊不是行政院不來啦你看那個列席的單位裡面就是依照院長的指示該來的人都來了那第二件事情我也跟你講如果說剛剛我講的"},{"start":5226.468,"end":5256.028,"text":"青龍總召是同意的那會後我可以請行政院跟你打個電話來證明說是不是我在這裡說的這樣遵守啦這樣這兩項我先給你說明說明一下啦那第三個718億也就是我們立法院決議的先行動之新興計畫挑新興計畫部分出來湊起來叫718億可以先行之用如果總預算大家今天協商願意付尾"},{"start":5256.769,"end":5264.809,"text":"那這718億在星期五的時候 民進黨黨也會提議 提一個案子這個提案子就是 就是"},{"start":5266.007,"end":5291.715,"text":"要再寫明行政院未來用這個718億的時候我們不會刪啦這個邏輯大家就清楚知道說為什麼行政院不敢用原因就是因為我們通過了之後事實上總預算還沒有審我們只是叫他先用那他到底要用多少譬如說我們說718億那你用那結果他真的把718億全部用完了"},{"start":5292.421,"end":5309.828,"text":"那回過頭來我們有一天要審預算的時候我們把人家刪了30億那請問一下我們並沒有通過718我們是718再減30那請問一下那短差的30億誰要來負責所以公務同仁他不敢違法嘛所以我再一次跟"},{"start":5311.048,"end":5338.18,"text":"這個青龍總召表示啦 喔 抱歉 我跟你說明一下不是要跟你挑戰嘛 不是 我想說 大家都可以照這個規矩啦啊 大家如果同意附會 禮拜五我們就可以提嘛我們就可以提一個 再提一個主決議就是說 後來我們不會 不會去刪減這個那 行政院也同意 它就可以馬上用 它就可以馬上用所以呢 我今天很誠意的來跟大家拜託啦希望說 能夠損失啦 這樣 好不好 喔 謝謝好 謝謝 蘇貞雄署長您請發言"},{"start":5340.481,"end":5367.275,"text":"謝謝院長還有各黨團的代表齁其實我們今天在這個地方在講這個總預算啦希望趕快讓它復違喔所以大家也知道啦社會對我們認為不合理啦現在不想賠你知不知道這個史無前例嘛台灣民眾黨我是認為啦因為你們比較新興的一個政黨啦你們講這個理由我是認為不通啦為什麼會認為不通你跟你跟這個國民黨"},{"start":5368.991,"end":5392.844,"text":"你們差不多公開的理由就是才會說軍人跟警消加薪通過案所以行政院沒變理算所以總理選你們比重嘛青龍總統應該你們這意思才會是這樣嘛中國國民黨我看這個地方比較資深就副分子委員副分子委第五屆跟第七屆"},{"start":5394.212,"end":5406.401,"text":"那時候差不多是 阿扁這樣接近了 地北地高很可惜了我們兩個都要交錯 地北去到地高 那時候就跑去做館長我們再交錯的時候 我們是10跟11 各位你把它想想看"},{"start":5411.98,"end":5440.603,"text":"我為什麼說他史無前例啊等於說執政的他有執政的責任那在野的其實他也有他的角色立法院重不重要他太重要了全國所有的國政立法委員都可以表示他的一個意見可是是不是到最後全部都是立法院可以來做決定這個就有問號了我為什麼講說執政者有他的有他的責任在野黨有他的一個角色"},{"start":5442.106,"end":5446.27,"text":"韓院長他選過總統他以後也有可能選總統也有可能動選喔這不要跟他吵喔我是看他很武的你知道嗎但是有一個重點喔"},{"start":5453.761,"end":5473.973,"text":"沒有沒有有一個重點喔韓國瑜院長如果你今天當總統的話我如果是在野黨的話我就很簡單我就碼著每一張你韓國瑜在當競選總統的時候韓國瑜院長韓總統我叫你比較聰明你以前在選舉的時候你開過什麼支票你有十張支票我就是要求你來兌現這個我叫做在野黨來監督你"},{"start":5479.738,"end":5490.121,"text":"我總不能想說 二人一樣啊我看一看 咱這人算不少咧我插手在韓國瑜那裡去動損 咱就連續開20張韓國瑜院長 我們這20張支票 你要來兌現你要從台中給我弄一條高速鐵路 或者什麼樣的一個重大建設這全部都不在你的競選支票裡面的"},{"start":5506.567,"end":5529.915,"text":"就是說 國民兩黨現在就是一口氣給人家打 可不可以可以 但沒有決定權啦 沒有決定權啦所以 蔡七章總召剛提到的就是說 你的立法院去增加行政院的支出如果行政院主動 後來他覺得要賣他來提出 那我覺得可以喔"},{"start":5531.053,"end":5557.582,"text":"所以今天其實大家都有釋出善意啦有釋出善意的不用過度來大家這樣攻防我講話一向都不太好聽啦但是我是覺得我講話都還算講道理啦各位你把它想想看嘛每一個政黨在執政的時候他都有照顧國民黨在執政的時候有沒有照顧軍人跟警察也有不會說沒有人家馬英九八年執政的時候也照顧過一次3%"},{"start":5561.209,"end":5568.11,"text":"要不要給他拍手 當然要給他拍手那從蔡英文到賴清德這十年裡面四次 十四趴"},{"start":5569.181,"end":5582.21,"text":"幅度還是比國民黨多這個是代表什麼意思這個也不會說 如果國民黨在執政的時候立法院突然又開出好幾張支票說來來來 國民黨政府 馬英九總統你國民要加多少 經銷要加多少我相信執政者他也會覺得為難"},{"start":5592.256,"end":5608.579,"text":"就是執政黨有他的角色 那國會當然有國會的一個角色那去對所有的各個族群也好 各類的公職也好 公務人員也好或者人民來做更加的一個照顧 那是應該"},{"start":5609.68,"end":5635.796,"text":"但問題是說立法院可不可以定制定一個法律說所有的公務人員你們太辛苦了你們每一個人一個月加薪20萬哇嘻啊那這樣通過這樣的一個法律的話行政院長 行政院要不要買單要不要買單如果立法院今天通過的是所有的公務人員從委任開始或者說認為說是減任的實在是太辛苦了連莊獎金"},{"start":5640.635,"end":5664.388,"text":"法定以後變成是六個月 立法院可不可以立這樣的法立出來以後 現在你們說沒有照我的話去做的話我所有的總預算我連副委都不給你副委你們這叫做什麼 這酸酥料想要自己當家啦這個讓人很為難啦 每一個政黨都有機會執政啊你們台灣民眾黨你們太沒氣魄了"},{"start":5665.768,"end":5672.951,"text":"你們真的以為你們只有80而已嗎?你們沒有去票,你們在那裡亂衝嘛!你們自己衝到縮矮嘛!你們才比較大氣欸!說你們現在民進黨是來請自己去執政?我們知道啊,我們給你監督就好了,看你的支票,你有票票嗎?你們現在不是,你們現在給你酸書,你們被寫,你們要做勞動的?"},{"start":5684.776,"end":5694.905,"text":"你們就沒有機會做勞動,你們就靠國民黨,就這樣子而已嘛我講難聽就是這樣子而已,這樣賣,這樣你們永遠不會執行老百姓覺得你們這個來亂的而已啊是,是發揮關鍵的力量沒錯,但是那是關鍵破壞的力量那中國國民黨,我倒認為說照顧警察、警消這個部分,我認為那個金額不大"},{"start":5708.8,"end":5734.738,"text":"本席認為那個金額不當但是軍人的部分是大家再來討論看看所以要來增加對軍人的照顧的部分我們再想一下說對他照顧不夠請顧理事長 國防部長再來討論一下再來增加那這個才談的基礎嘛那也是國防部也是行政院自己來發動嘛不是你想說要安裝就安裝這也覺得把立法委員膨脹得太高啦"},{"start":5735.558,"end":5751.552,"text":"立法院我再講一次所有國家涉及到預算的立法院都可以管立法院都可以表示意見但不是做最後的那個做我來主張要怎麼樣行政它有它的一個主動性那立法委員說我們在這裡做這個的話你會解釋了半天啦你說沒有啦"},{"start":5756.196,"end":5763.664,"text":"那種預算沒過 都不會延宕老百姓的啦你看TPAS啦 治水啦 什麼啦我們新興預算 我先給他 覺得很重要的我們國民黨跟台灣民眾黨我們就先在立法院再提個案 決議給他過了不過有個問題 你那是一個民意燒到你們的屁股上啦何必這麼的一個迂迴呢"},{"start":5776.596,"end":5796.007,"text":"我們就大大風風 要貼老闆寫做事情 我們很大風嘛要打水的 要還是說民生真的會用到的總預算誰不會知道說它是一本的總預算你沒有副委 你說沒關係 副委你一直開就好那你剩下那兩千兩百億你怎麼辦那你怎麼辦所以我本席倒是認為 我跟院長這樣的一個建議就是大家都貼一個人"},{"start":5805.373,"end":5813.16,"text":"國家大家的啦,醫療大家都有機會接種啦,這就史無前例的醫療就不要再發生這個事情醫療有機會啊,不然你跟國民黨會比較拚命咧,運氣比較好,不然你跟一家台灣民眾黨去執政啊什麼人來用這個補,我怎麼替你趕走,那裡沒有你,有啊,有天"},{"start":5826.337,"end":5851.849,"text":"民進黨就算輸 算輸台灣民眾黨 台灣民眾黨在當家啊我們就用一些法律弄一些你們去當選總統的時候沒有提過的政見來幫你們做決定這哪通啊 算輸啦 要這麼老大那這個我是覺得 這個可能大家再想一下啦 好不好好 謝謝莊教授的發言那個 林耀廷我知道 你稍微等一下那我先見一下 我們就休息十分鐘大家來溝通一下"},{"start":5854.029,"end":5856.812,"text":"副總召 國民黨團還有簽議事發言 國民黨團請發言這個謝謝院長我看今天這個還是淪為雞同雞講我們人是坐在這一排 我是人所以我現在是聽不太懂 連我第幾屆都拿出來講"},{"start":5881.653,"end":5909.806,"text":"我想今天我們經過陳水扁的年代現在開始有點懷念了跟賴清德比起來真的是值得懷念當時雖然嘲笑也大但是在立法院三讀通過所謂民進黨所說的增加預算的提案在扁政府任內的八年通通執行了尊重國會三讀通過通通都執行"},{"start":5911.616,"end":5938.135,"text":"大家都是有商有量不是到現在這個政權到現在賴清德總統從來沒有跟我們有任何一次的協商包括跟在野黨的黨主席還是政黨從不協商所以我們現在真的很好奇齁這個新興計畫我覺得今天真的是聽起來本席實在不太想講話但是今天代表國民黨都是您念到我們國民黨上來我們不得不講齁"},{"start":5940.089,"end":5966.781,"text":"這個新計畫718例包括T-BUS等等的立法院都三讀通過完全依照預算法已經拿出來通過了我今天很意外的是這個審計突然尊重立法院我們審計長突然尊重立法院他說主計突然尊重立法院我很驚訝耶主計長你什麼時候尊重過立法院"},{"start":5968.104,"end":5991.635,"text":"記得說 哇 我們這個沒有做決議萬一到時候刪除怎麼辦 已經用了你還怕我們 還怕我們會刪除 所以不敢用立法院通過你都可以不編 還要怕我們不敢用那真的是 真的是 真的是雞同雞講的在講什麼那更重要的是"},{"start":5992.871,"end":6008.502,"text":"真的會不會刪掉你不能用嗎我們營業基金非營業基金哪一次審查不是說他們用完了同樣的場景都做在這裡啊哪一年不是這樣啊不是都給用了嗎那我說現在踢趴子我不敢用"},{"start":6010.151,"end":6037.377,"text":"所以都同樣的場景我們覺得真的是很奇怪更不要講2016到2024八成的案子都是碾壓通過的院外表決通過所以說剛剛說現在不是立法院表決就有用那過去不是立法院表決就有用嗎所以我們在這裡要特別強調我們這邊的協商不要再提憲法法庭五個人可以開會15個大法官的"},{"start":6038.41,"end":6066.314,"text":"大法大法庭會議五個人可以開會可以做決議另外三個大法官在外面罵他們違法開會這樣的憲法法庭在哪一個民主是全世界民主國家是經得起考驗這種東西還是一個合憲的法庭還要把國會的事情要推到所謂這種五人憲法法庭我們特別要強調一下為什麼"},{"start":6067.83,"end":6088.637,"text":"我們受到這麼多的工具的天天的重傷抹黑我們還是在忍耐因為我們的堅持是必須為這個國家留財我們必須要忍耐的我們今天強調的這三件我們主計都不編行政院都不編的立法院通過的公教停侃"},{"start":6091.448,"end":6117.324,"text":"物價長成什麼樣子這些一生奉獻給國家的人包括在座的各位政務官以外的事務官都是終身奉獻給國家的然後突然有一天告訴你我們沒有信賴保護原則我們讓你沒有辦法生活當一流的人都不進入國家來服務的時候三流的人進入國家"},{"start":6119.744,"end":6146.816,"text":"行政體系 這就是三流的政府所以這個要停侃 物價到底漲了多少七年了四年就應該調整了結果沒有 現在七年了再過來講軍人加薪我們的軍購案 天價軍購不斷的疊加但職業軍人的援援明顯不足三萬五千三起薪職業軍人要上戰場養家活口我們也是順應軍人不斷的反應"},{"start":6150.043,"end":6175.605,"text":"所以必須 三萬五千三所以我們必須要讓軍人能夠沒有後顧之憂能夠安家 能夠保護台灣這個本來就應該要來珍惜我們的軍人而且更重要的是買了這麼多武器我們沒有足夠 足夠的專業的軍人來操作也是恍然啊"},{"start":6177.216,"end":6199.569,"text":"現在根本 根本 邊線比根本就不足嘛買這麼多武器有多少人可以操作有多少專業的軍人更不要講警消這些都是最危險的工作上最危險的這些警消退休人員我們希望 如果他們能夠安養終老也會為國家"},{"start":6201.338,"end":6229.02,"text":"爭取更多人才願意投入我們政府所以給他有一套比較好的比較好的一個完整的退休計畫我想啊這個是我們該做的事情不過在這裡還是要強調當然在這裡有各個政黨不同的立場各自表述我可以講自己政黨的立場沒有問題但是呢我還是希望啊"},{"start":6230.927,"end":6258.573,"text":"這個韓院長既然已經出面了我想各個政黨還是能夠在可能 盡可能協調之下的情況之下讓整個國家預算可以來執行也希望 也希望包括主計長在內這些行政官員能夠依法行政能夠依法行政我想這個就是我們大家共同的期待也希望今天大家能夠盡量圓滿 好不好"},{"start":6259.906,"end":6269.222,"text":"好 謝謝我們休息十分鐘大家討論一下休息完畢之後劉雪婷委員如果有什麼意見我們到時候再說好不好因為第一階段都是黨團發言好 休息一下"},{"start":7252.532,"end":7277.402,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝也謝謝各位行政官員謝謝啊那麼經過溝通之後目前達成兩項共識我來宣讀一下各黨團幹部跟各位行政列席的官員請大家仔細聆聽一為求行政立法和諧及順利將總預算案附為審查我把這個兩個"},{"start":7280.373,"end":7281.554,"text":"對不起,紙張太多了,抱歉抱歉"},{"start":7299.444,"end":7313.64,"text":"資料太多各黨團同意115年度總預算案附委事宜要求行政立法互動和諧同意要點如下一行政院應該於115年度總預算案附委後半年內"},{"start":7314.821,"end":7330.676,"text":"提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施以展現回應立法保障軍公教權益之意旨"},{"start":7331.497,"end":7352.047,"text":"二令針對總運算案完成審查之前立法院已通過之新興計劃動之案行政院應該予以立刻先行執行立法院於審議上開新興計劃時同意如數照列免於凍結請問這兩點各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":7355.919,"end":7364.346,"text":"如果沒有請簽署好嗎那接下來陳金榮總召想要發言好請那劉許廷委員請準備我們先簽署好不好謝謝"},{"start":7366.372,"end":7385.77,"text":"好 謝謝院長的用心 真的我們也感受到我們韓院長為了我們總預算案的一個用心所以我們台灣民眾黨黨團也表達他的支持那在這裡 我還是要鄭重的跟民進黨黨團表示"},{"start":7388.012,"end":7405.979,"text":"今天我們一直談的我們所謂的軍人待遇條例警察人員人事條例我們立法院三讀通過的這樣的案子行政院視為是違憲那在這裡我還是要重申"},{"start":7407.706,"end":7434.747,"text":"預算案跟法律案不同預算案我們立法院不得作為增加預算之決議法律案我們立法院本身就有提案之權那我在這邊就舉一個簡單的例子如果立法院不能提案增加預算那我們腦中津貼我們來增加腦中津貼的預算怎麼會有我們立法院來增加"},{"start":7436.513,"end":7461.741,"text":"另外包括我們議員主理會的專家也是由我們立法院來提案所以所謂違憲跟不違憲我們應該法律案跟預算案要來說明清楚所以我們今天才會主張說我們行政院應該針對我們已經立法院三讀通過的"},{"start":7465.067,"end":7475.727,"text":"這個軍人待遇條例 警察人員人事條例這邊要來以執行那當然今天在韓院長的主持協商之下行政院"},{"start":7477.443,"end":7495.095,"text":"也同意在半年內也要提出這樣相關的一個保障軍公教的一個措施來回應我們立法院也回應台灣民眾黨立法保障軍公教權益的意志為我們總計算能夠順利互為"},{"start":7497.496,"end":7516.778,"text":"為了我們還是能夠來保障軍公教的權益所以我們也同意我們韓院長的一個協商的結果那也在這邊邀請我們民進黨黨團也要確定行政院能夠依我們的一個協商的要點來執行"},{"start":7518.612,"end":7543.722,"text":"好 謝謝陳青龍總統 林育晴委員請發言 簡短扼壓 謝謝謝謝主席 今天針對協商結論 因為這個結果叫政治處理所以本席不表示任何意義 我們當然就配合黨團的決議來做處理但我想幾個道理還是要講清楚啦第一個 這個我們在 之所以這個預算僵局會產生當然就是因為立法院三讀通過的法案沒有被合理的執行我想這違反了法治國的原則跟精神這個行政院當然可以認為它有違憲之餘"},{"start":7544.642,"end":7559.373,"text":"但是即便你要送去釋憲之前你也是應該先執行再釋憲我想這是法治國依法行政的基本原則在場都沒有人可以直接認定行政院有資格來判斷因為是違憲而不執行我想這個道理還是要說清楚這核心序名第二個"},{"start":7560.093,"end":7580.464,"text":"這談到雖然今天是用政治處理的方式來解決這件事情但是我也必須要講我們立法院修正這麼多的法案很多修正的法案就會影響國家政策影響國家政策的時候當然就會造成政府開支的改變如果按照今天民進黨黨團所主張的凡是有政府開支增加的時候都一定要有行政院的版本作為基礎的話"},{"start":7581.485,"end":7604.825,"text":"那我覺得那是變相閹割立法院提案的權利我覺得這件事大家應該要嚴肅看待我再說一次今天的協商結論叫政治處理但不表示我們是同意用這樣子的精神未來去處理立法院的事物我想這會立下一個不太好的範例所以我想這件事情也是要講清楚立法院有立法院提案的權利提案三讀通過當然因為這一段時間"},{"start":7605.686,"end":7630.777,"text":"這個嘲笑野大沒有辦法有效溝通要表決很多東西很困難但這不表示立法院應該自我閹割我覺得這是各黨各派都應該要有的這個觀念那第三這剛剛我們莊惠雄幹事長今天這個散播方法散播愛當然是很好的但是我必須要講這個過去的經驗嘲笑野大是一個很重要大家要務實考量的事情嘛今天大家的意見不一樣但是國會在野黨是多數"},{"start":7631.377,"end":7646.943,"text":"未來大家就是應該好好協商去達成共識我覺得這當然是一個很好的方法但是如果不能達成共識表決通過的也應該要尊重多數我想這樣的精神還是要被標舉的所以花一點點時間我覺得總是要把道理說個明白感謝主席給我時間 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":7648.664,"end":7672.432,"text":"那各位黨團幹部各位列席的官員我想我今天宣讀一下我們立法院黨團協商的結論時間115年4月15號星期三下午3點半地點紅樓302會議室決定事項一各黨團同意4月21號星期二邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部長列席報告115年度中央政府總預算案編制經過並備諮詢"},{"start":7674.873,"end":7701.745,"text":"含志願役軍人加薪及錦銷退休金等預算編制處理情形並與報告執訊人數由國民黨團推派五位民進黨團推派五位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行執訊順序依例授權議事處進行處理名單於4月20日星期一中午12點前送交議事處會診議案詢答完畢後即交審查"},{"start":7703.123,"end":7731.854,"text":"各黨團同意不提出復議當次會議不處理臨時提案令台灣民眾黨團針對一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案之復議案予以撤回二請財政委會四月十六號星期四下午五點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事處以例四月十七號星期五院會報告三各黨團同意針對一百一十五年度總預算復委事宜邀"},{"start":7732.754,"end":7758.153,"text":"要求行政院立法為求行政立法互動和諧同意要點如下小一行政院應於一百一十五年度總預算案附委後六個月之內提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施以展現回應立法院保障軍公教權益之意旨小二"},{"start":7759.093,"end":7774.056,"text":"另針對總預算案完成審查之前立法院已經通過新興計劃動之案行政院應該予以立刻先行執行立法院與審議上開新興計劃時同意如數照列並免於凍結請問各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有寶貴意見麻煩請簽署謝謝我們開始好"},{"start":7786.963,"end":7812.615,"text":"我們開始進入第二案現在我們協商結論的簽字之中我們要進行第二案請幕僚跟行政官員就位我們開始第二案協商簽這一張真是不容易啊"},{"start":7835.033,"end":7837.015,"text":"謝謝各位練習官員 謝謝大家辛苦了 不好意思"},{"start":7855.077,"end":7879.397,"text":"好 謝謝各位列席官員請坐好 謝謝各位列席官員請坐退席的官員也請加快速度有寶貴的時間好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":7893.8,"end":7918.246,"text":"好 謝謝跟各位黨團幹部報告今天我們列席的有國防部顧部長 歡迎戰略更化師黃師長好 歡迎法律師黃吳師長好 歡迎中山科學研究院理院長好 歡迎您採購室趙主任好 謝謝 歡迎我們財政部國庫署陳署長好 歡迎財政部"},{"start":7922.847,"end":7942.727,"text":"行政院副主席長 蔡副主席長 歡迎您經濟部 產業發展署的周副署長 歡迎法國部料參事 歡迎審計部 林副審計長 歡迎林副審這麼年輕啊數位部 周副署長"},{"start":7944.76,"end":7956.648,"text":"更年輕衛福部政事長國家科學及技術委員會 郭副處長行政公共工程委員會 謝處長"},{"start":7967.82,"end":7985.048,"text":"1.我們今天的黨團協商要行政院罕見審議強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案2.台灣民眾黨團凝聚保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案3.國民黨團凝聚強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案等三案"},{"start":7993.092,"end":8002.576,"text":"這三案經本院外交國防財政兩委會聯席已經審查完略並決議交由黨團協商115年4月9日上週四經過民進黨黨團總召由陳冠廷召集委員組織協商未能獲得共識在案"},{"start":8013.291,"end":8032.566,"text":"現在我們開始並案協商保留協商的部分有1.法律名稱2.保留條文有行政院提案第一條第三條至第七條2.台灣民眾黨團體第一條第三條至第八條3.國民黨團體第一條第四條至第九條3.以及附帶決議一項請各位參閱我們"},{"start":8034.948,"end":8057.24,"text":"會議桌上的議案關係文書及審查報告以及條文對照表與會黨團如果有修正動議及有或機關有建議內容請提出書面資料我們現場要來印發接下來我們要依照條文對照表上保留的部分繼續進行協商我首先我先請陳冠廷召集委員你先剪短扼要的報告一下好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":8059.07,"end":8073.907,"text":"好 謝謝院長還有我們在野黨的委員們大家午安其實我們這一次的特別條例裡面我們有共識的其實蠻少的大概除了主管機關跟國防部之外在就程序上面而已"},{"start":8074.668,"end":8089.25,"text":"那我是希望說今天至少我們有一個可以整理出一個方向那我們知道這一次整體來說就是軍購商購跟委制那軍購上面我們上一次在審理的時候包含徐曉新委員"},{"start":8091.092,"end":8104.298,"text":"應該林委員也有談到就是有一些條有一些文字你們會帶為黨團裡面去討論那其中包含就是施行的施行期間那施行期間其實我們跟民眾黨的部分都是提到說到122年12月31日因為這是"},{"start":8106.559,"end":8124.18,"text":"有辦法達到的但是在國民黨的部分是到117年12月31日這個好像是在技術上面是比較沒有辦法達到的所以這個部分我們希望今天能夠就這個實質的問題來討論那第二個部分就是國防特別條例裡面的軍事採購的部分軍事採購的裡面"},{"start":8126.002,"end":8150.108,"text":"在國民黨的第八條裡面它是提出來說要主管機關得債刑提出強化國防及對美軍事採購的第二階段特別條例那我們的立場是希望說不要分兩階段這樣我怕會還不積極而是直接在這一次的條例裡面就把它包括進來那我們是希望說至少這兩條上面當然我們還有包含甚至連特別條例的名稱還有這個"},{"start":8153.91,"end":8178.471,"text":"這個對美採購還是對其他國家採購等等一開始是有一些討論但是我認為說比較重中之重的我們可能或許會有今天可能會有一些初步共識的還是先從這兩條開始那之後我們就可以慢慢的進入到商購商購的部分我們知道說在野黨是希望說盡量是把它變成年度預算但我們是希望說這次把它放到這個特別條例裡面那不過沒關係我們先從軍購的部分是不是先開始來做討論"},{"start":8181.269,"end":8200.326,"text":"謝謝陳昭吉委員、冠廷的寶貴發言那接下來我們請三個黨團要依序發言那個別委員、列席委員有意見的話再請隨時表達意見三個黨團發言完畢以後我們請行政部門開始發言完畢我們要開始進入審查首先我們請台灣民眾黨團請提案的您先發表發言好嗎?國民黨團請準備"},{"start":8202.401,"end":8218.544,"text":"好 這個我非常感謝剛剛那個官邸總召我們其實那個前幾個禮拜花了非常多的時間稍微啦我們花了兩天時間來討論這個事情不過沒有 這個沒有錯基本上我們對於很多的內容"},{"start":8220.485,"end":8244.47,"text":"我們也同意可以先從軍購這邊來著手就是那天大家協商完其實我在回黨部我們也做了一些商討不過我們還是覺得我們這邊需要國防部這邊也許給我們更多有利於我們做考慮的一些資料也許有助於我們對一些比較明顯的一些項目可以有一些共識"},{"start":8245.51,"end":8256.204,"text":"那我想今天希望我們能夠義中求同能夠共同求的一些共同的結論以上謝謝王嘉祥市議長接下來國民黨團請發言民進黨團請準備"},{"start":8260.945,"end":8288.037,"text":"謝謝院長我想其實國民黨其實一向都非常支持國防但是我們要支持就必要而且有可以買得到而且能夠正當形成戰力的對美軍購所以我們覺得嚴格的這個把關然後審查把監督的這個職責是我們立法委員必要的責任所以我們其實在乎的是就是說採購一定要非常的公開透明絕對不能急迫而且制度不能失守這就是國民黨"},{"start":8288.757,"end":8309.925,"text":"我們要這個特別預算的特別條例的這個最核心的一個立場那當然我想國民黨團不是這個我們目前大概那天在審查法案的時候其實我們針對一些部分我們都表達了充分的意見包括說我們的3800億加N其實就是希望說能夠把未來可能對美"},{"start":8313.647,"end":8336.167,"text":"軍購的部分美國會提供OA的部分我們先把它預放進去那未來如果當美國提供軍購的發價出來的時候我們就可以馬上能夠編列預算那也可以達到實際上的一個效果所以在這邊我想這個部分其實我們非常的支持國防那也希望說今天能夠達到一個共識大家能夠往這個"},{"start":8338.188,"end":8360.453,"text":"怎麼樣能夠有把關嚴格而且不會延伸到未來因為其實針對軍購的部分我們也擔心說會不會有以前這樣子的這個不管是那個拉法葉案相關延伸的相關的問題所以針對這個部分我們覺得應該是要把這個商購的部分要放入到一般的年度預算比較不會有太大的疑慮謝謝"},{"start":8361.613,"end":8384.68,"text":"好 謝謝許議員發言 接下來請莊銳雄委員請發言謝謝院長 還有我們所有的協商的代表其實整個軍購 大家講真話啦不用在那裡說那些 如果要審軍購條例那你們真正的餘力到底是什麼啦因為台灣民眾可能剛才說希望提供更多的資料聽起來 第一天聽立法院說話都覺得很合理啦"},{"start":8390.64,"end":8402.049,"text":"你們這個都說得已經沒人說了 什麼都說不出來了3月5號大黨要副委我們這個軍購條例你們本來是你們聯手是連副委都不想讓他副委不是不想審喔"},{"start":8405.444,"end":8426.274,"text":"是連副委你都不愛?你現在說我要再加資料 好啊其實如果真的要審美書 講道理我是覺得都還好啦第一個 你說到底 其實行政院可以做什麼 七個條文而已嘛七個條文 我覺得國防外交委員會喔 大家聽到是都很好耶我就要給陳光霆額落一下 威斯康辛的學術"},{"start":8432.625,"end":8442.752,"text":"日本當怕替代黨的 這開玩笑 阿去留學 美國又留學日本的這聽頭感不錯 國民黨也不錯啊 民眾黨你們也不錯啊特別那些心肝壞 因為沒有心肝要過你不用擔心 你不用擔心這個條文真的你們國防外交委員會都不讀寫連那個草案名稱你們就有辦法寫到寫不出來"},{"start":8462.106,"end":8471.052,"text":"臺灣民眾黨跟民主政府我們宗教你不用跟我們懂我是看這個看得硬你知道嗎我先上廁所只有一個條例的名稱寵到這樣大家開花臺灣民眾黨跟民進黨差不多吧國民黨看看這第一條其實我看過你們的名稱其實要達到妥協達到一致不困難啦但是沒有什麼信嘛你們如果寵到三月的時候你們要開始去覆違"},{"start":8492.58,"end":8521.109,"text":"剛才過一條啦 主管機關叫國防部你們這會叫小學生手勢啦三棟都會叫小學生手勢啦你說這個看起來就知道說這個就是不想審所以當初連副委都不想副委那社會有沒有壓力 壓力來了就趕快審 審 審 審 審副董就給他全部都保留這樣出去了通過一個主管機關是國防部不然說軍過主管機關是內政部軍過主管機關是教育部那是不可能的事情啊"},{"start":8522.234,"end":8528.521,"text":"玩這一種 這個是對這個國家對我們整個身為立法委員的職責的一個不尊重"},{"start":8529.878,"end":8555.618,"text":"都不尊重那本席就是這樣認為啦我這樣認為啦剛剛國民黨跟台灣民政黨講了很多理由但那個都不是真正的理由啦那不是真正的理由啦你說要更多資料我說不對嘛你連副委都不讓他副委你前面都不會想到要資料怎麼突然現在想要更多資料這也不通啦七個條文其實很快全六個條文而已全六個條文而已就是說"},{"start":8558.22,"end":8573.632,"text":"大家各黨都大膽的講出來哪一些你不想要的你說我這個顧立雄這個國防部長我看他很討厭我想刪他三千億三千億你也可以啊你也跟他講出哪一個部分你是認為你說1.251.25兆"},{"start":8577.096,"end":8597.268,"text":"你就認為哪一些是不對的我們講給社會大眾聽說這個民進黨在執政的武器亂買這個不應該買的你也買那哪一些你認為不應該的你覺得不是因為我有了三千五就開始來看 看什麼看我們還敢擋不擋預算我看可能軍購來看的話 可能這樣來弄的話比較難去說服啦剛才說的你們台灣民眾黨我現在也要說一下國民黨"},{"start":8608.47,"end":8626.684,"text":"你們主席去跟習近平也要回廖野啦去完廖野啦也讓你們等這麼久啦當鄭麗文說要到中國去的時候我當初就跟大家預測了啦我就說鄭麗文沒有從中國跟習近平見完面回來以後連審都不會審啦我以為已經握完手了 回來了總要 總要大家好好來審啦三千五位齁"},{"start":8635.734,"end":8661.821,"text":"差不多到中國比較好的主張三千五啦你們國民黨裡面啦那你們的八千五的 差不多住在中部的啦住在比較中部的差不多主張八千多的啦那你如果說對整個國家都覺得不錯 都要防護的就像我們的一天二五兆的啦那三個有沒有道理講清楚都可以有道理啊但是我是覺得我們來做一個決定啦 因為我們做一個決定"},{"start":8662.881,"end":8681.369,"text":"就是前面都不是因為你沒有資料不是因為說你不了解 都不是前面是因為你們聯手不想審你們連讓他復違也都不讓他復違是這個原因 這個大家還是要講清楚但是身為執政黨的幹部我們也認為說"},{"start":8684.857,"end":8709.673,"text":"要對外的一個採購這錢都很大錢嘛可是不能浪費民脂民膏嘛要受到國會的監督至少在國會裡面必須要去透明這都合理啊這個都合理啊但問題就是說當我們覺得這是合理的時候那我們不要哪一些的時候也要講得合理啦好不容易喔總預算在院長的"},{"start":8711.274,"end":8717.776,"text":"剛剛的主持公立調和定內這樣通過了軍過我是覺得重中之重院長你相信你很注重國會外交你會想要帶大家來法國我也會說要怎麼去法國我去法國我如果去了人家會說你們在台灣為什麼那個軍過你們大家都連審都不想審"},{"start":8736.533,"end":8741.318,"text":"阿你們就敢跑出來玩 秋西郎我們要他去拜會 當作我們在外面 當作我們沒做事所以總預算案跟這個軍購 不是說我沒有把它綁在一起是說這個對國家是很重要外人來這樣問的時候 你不管是到法國啦 還是到哪一個國家去人家這樣問我們的國會議員的時候 院長你不覺得我們說不出來 很謙虛嗎"},{"start":8761.396,"end":8777.58,"text":"臺灣的這個政黨好爛喔七個條文而已 名稱也搞不定然後連那個主管機關 該國防部說這個還要討論說很怕把那個主管機關 規定到文化部去不會嘛 所以軍購條例 甘一定要做兩次說來 我先給你三千五 算完你要買完 再一次給你三千五"},{"start":8785.513,"end":8794.61,"text":"對於整個國家的一個建軍防衛能力的一個提升我看最有能力來做步劃的就是我們的國防部"},{"start":8796.994,"end":8802.138,"text":"民主進步黨 立法院黨團 零力跟國防部沒在一起我認為台灣民眾黨 應該你們也不敢講說我全台灣最懂國防 怎麼樣來提升戰力 部署哪些武器是你台灣民眾黨 你們最內行 我相信你們也不敢講那中國國民黨 你們再來講這一些的話 我相信你們也會值得汗顏啊"},{"start":8821.206,"end":8825.468,"text":"我覺得是一樣的,國家是大家的,今天我們可以,我們前陣子真的延宕太多了而且前面的延宕的理由都是不通,不是因為沒有資料,其實是因為大家彼此在政治上的攻防,難免,可是因為我們延宕的太久"},{"start":8842.957,"end":8847.419,"text":"不要說大家提升軍人待遇要照顧軍人照顧什麼結果連武器對整個國家的安全的一個條例連性都不需要這個可能會對我們國會來講的話對我們就變成會失職了啦以上謝謝莊院長你跟你講的話講得我們心情跟坐雲霄飛車一樣上上下下壓力很大國防部長 顧部長請簡單二要說明一下我們的開車精神查清"},{"start":8872.557,"end":8892.138,"text":"好,院長還有各位委員,我想關鍵在於我們現在要去格出一個條例跟預算的不同這個我還是一再的說明,我們現在條例就公布了版本,我想剛剛已經講了就是我們就是整個就七個條文"},{"start":8893.94,"end":8919.981,"text":"以民眾黨版本來看就是八個條文那麼國民黨版本就九個條文那所以條例跟預算不同那現在關鍵就在於說一個是第四條那第四條的我們就是提出我們七個要建構的能力項目這是我們的第四條那在民眾黨也是第四條那國民黨呢是第五條那"},{"start":8921.022,"end":8938.937,"text":"民眾黨跟國民黨團都將那個特定的那個採購的那個內容啊把它寫進去那事實上是將條例跟我們要採購的那個特定的案項其實是混淆了所以如"},{"start":8939.966,"end":8968.995,"text":"依照所有我們應該要訂的條例來跟預算案的不同來看的話那麼今天就是要看說各朝野黨團對第四條或者國民黨團的第五條我們要採購的這個項目我們行政院版所提出來的這個能力的這個部分有哪些能力的部分覺得是並不適宜擺在這個能力部分"},{"start":8970.287,"end":8978.981,"text":"那這樣才有討論的基礎而不是去討論那個具體要採購的案項因為具體要採購案項是要等到我們再提出預算的時候您可以就"},{"start":8980.305,"end":9007.203,"text":"立法院可以就那個具體案項可以決議不通過那這樣的我們就不能夠採購那個項目這是第一點那第二點當然另外金額的部分這是一個最高的上限的金額不代表這個所有的預算案進來之後都可以獲得支持因此可以達到這樣的一個金額但是我們行政院的版本還是堅持我們事實上在之前已經做過相關的專報"},{"start":9008.944,"end":9029.229,"text":"不管是機密的還是公開的已經將我們一照2500億所需要的籌購的每一個項目都做過報告如果今天有一些委員表示他沒有聽過這樣的專報的內容我們願意再來進行專報只是有一些涉及機敏的事項必須要"},{"start":9030.129,"end":9052.427,"text":"用機密專報的方式來進行那所以像第四條的這個項目也就是他的能力的建構搭配後面要要再放進來這個預算書表要不要同意才最後會決定最後通過的金額是多少嘛對不對所以我們今天是在討論條例所以"},{"start":9054.509,"end":9065.446,"text":"就麻煩各位就是說針對條例我們現在重點就是在於剛剛講的第四條的部分的哪些能力的建構大家覺得有"},{"start":9066.417,"end":9088.845,"text":"有什麼意見如果沒有意見的話我是覺得如果可以就這樣先就能力的部分建構這些七項的能力沒有意見的話那預算等到後續進來之後大家可以再來想審這個我想國防部的好謝謝顧部長的說明那各位黨團幹部我們就開始進入第一條好不好我們就開始進入法律名稱"},{"start":9090.151,"end":9110.011,"text":"那請各位黨團針對法律名稱行政院所提案的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例有沒有意見好沒有意見我們第一條法律名稱照行政院版本我們通過啊好 林委員沒問題啊 有意見隨時不要急 林委員請表達一下請"},{"start":9112.028,"end":9135.906,"text":"哇 這個報告主席喔這個我還原一下當初在外交國防委員會大家討論的啦今天在這個黨團協商的場合大家可能是希望透過政治處理的方式加快相關的程序嘛因為我想這件事情不只是只有金額的問題它也有速度的問題嘛大家都希望這個東西可以趕快落板趕快開始來做執行嘛所以今天有 其實講白了這整包裡面大概就幾個爭點嘛"},{"start":9136.687,"end":9159.453,"text":"大概就是名稱大概就是金額還有執行的期程嘛剛剛這個陳冠廷委員有做說明其實我覺得可能要針對這幾項大家做一下討論比較容易達成共識啦要不然你這一條一條走其實跟國防外交委員會審查的時候一樣因為像第一條以名稱為例這個行政院就是說任性很重要所以我們要按照這個院版等等的說法台灣民眾黨講說我們講保衛國家安全跟不對稱戰力就已經涵蓋所有了"},{"start":9159.733,"end":9175.046,"text":"那我們的主張一直是我們要優先處理對美軍購嘛所以他既然是對美軍購我覺得也沒什麼好藏的就把對美軍購寫進去然後那一天光是這個名稱的條文在國防外交就搞一個多小時然後結論還是沒有意見沒有共識那今天也是一樣嘛"},{"start":9175.566,"end":9191.116,"text":"今天大抵上方向我們黨團的立場還是一樣我是覺得應該要先針對對美軍購的方式先來做處理其他不是不行但是我覺得要從長討論我順便藉這樣子的發言時間舉幾個例子這個很多時候不是說資料有沒有掉的問題我話說從頭啊這個案子"},{"start":9193.357,"end":9211.29,"text":"按照第一波發架數到的時間倒推啊因為美國也有一些相關的行政流程所以我們去做一下請教倒推其實在去年六月後來我問了國防部其實更早其實行政院就已經開始做研究跟規劃這當然都沒有問題但是如果大家都不認清楚現在的國會的生態跟狀況還有一個又一個的朝野僵局的話"},{"start":9212.091,"end":9241.233,"text":"然後你不提早溝通不提早處理然後你明明六月至少都有明確的目標開始往前走你都不講然後到11月的時候你也不是先跟國內社會溝通你跑去搞外媒投書然後回過頭來要內宣轉情了然後要求在黨一定要接受當然就會造成僵局嘛就已經很多僵局你多一個僵局所以才會出現那賴總統要不然來國會報告啊所以他就卡在那個地方其實耽誤了整體法案審查的問題嘛你就早一點溝通嘛再來我講"},{"start":9241.753,"end":9263.715,"text":"資料的提供 民眾長講的真的沒有道理嗎前一段時間外交國防委員會在針對最近這段時間的國防部的財務計畫的時候我提的資訊很清楚啊我說我們購買這麼多的軍備設備現在軍備設備跟維護館養的支出比例大概是1比1左右過去都是這個比例我現在大幅的增加了軍購採購的這樣子的量我維養的成本會不會跟著增加"},{"start":9264.435,"end":9292.134,"text":"換言之我未來要增加的豈止是這1.25兆的特別預算它會不會對我國家長線的財政造成一定的衝擊跟負擔總要有數字吧所以我請他們做了8年的財政規劃但我到現在我還沒收到資料啊所以我覺得中間還有本來就還有很多東西是可以被釐清的所以我想今天如果大家還是只是表達立場而沒有說我們今天暫時捐氣立場各黨都講說我們在哪些地方先願意讓步的時候那每一條每一條大家都還是各執一詞"},{"start":9293.055,"end":9300.287,"text":"結論也還會是沒有共識所以重上我想針對名稱因為沒有顯然沒有任何交集所以我們對名稱還是有堅持的以上"},{"start":9309.144,"end":9325.396,"text":"應該這樣講,我剛如果念大家對行政院那個名稱有沒有意見的時候,大家要提反對意見,那我們就開始進入討論嘛。反過來,那國民黨團如果提出來他們希望名稱變成對美軍事採購特別條例,那其他黨有沒有意見也可以提出來,所以我並不是說一定要。"},{"start":9326.457,"end":9339.922,"text":"直接這樣好像一意孤行這點我需要澄清一下立場第二個我也建議剛剛已經都非常多綜合性的討論情緒性發言我們就暫時降低回歸到理性拜託一下因為我們時間有限好不好好 發言人請準備"},{"start":9343.087,"end":9358.568,"text":"這個我去過外交國防委員會幾次那當然就是說我想大家在每一條上討論更多那以我對這個部分的理解我想對一般民眾來講大家已經越來越了解這一次的這個特別條例這個版本不是只有對美軍購"},{"start":9360.09,"end":9376.012,"text":"那部長也在總質詢的時候我也親自問他是一個很重要的系統升級因為要強化防衛韌性跟所謂的不對稱戰力因為台灣小中國大所以不對稱戰力很重要他是系統升級所以有一個台灣之盾"},{"start":9376.713,"end":9400.888,"text":"所以剛剛顧部長一直問大家說政院版的第三條哪一項覺得不好可以討論那國民黨跟民眾黨都只有針對軍購要什麼海馬士等等寫得太具體他說那個部分未來在預算提出的時候可以再討論那這個是一個條例所以我想軍購加上台灣之盾還有第三個"},{"start":9402.229,"end":9428.231,"text":"上次我有提到經濟學人都有提到台灣無人機的產業就是說潛力了那我們也看到相關的部分我們的無人機產業在這幾年發展得很快速已經可以賣到捷克、波蘭跟美國那經濟部提供的訊息我們也最近跟九國簽了MOU那所以它非常的重要是我們的不對稱戰力而且是防衛韌性"},{"start":9429.432,"end":9447.284,"text":"因為如果台灣沒有自產的時候那遇到一些緊急狀況的時候你就沒有一個防衛的能力那這個部分那你們在委員會的時候說為什麼不放在以後每年的預算中那對產業來講它必須是要穩定的所以這個1.25兆"},{"start":9449.145,"end":9474.756,"text":"我們已經告訴大家它是一個天花板的概念所以剛剛牛許廷委員擔心的財務的衝擊那個可以在每一年提出來的時候可以討論那現在我們講的是1.25兆民進黨這邊需要的事情是它是一個系統升級那是不是能夠一次就把這個空間做出來那我也特別想要友善的再提醒大家說這不只是"},{"start":9475.236,"end":9502.396,"text":"台灣就是國防部提出來的需求那國防部也講過很多次跟我們的盟友有相關的討論那這也是對盟友宣示我們有自我防衛的決心要強化它那我想美國參議院我們最重要的朋友台灣連線共同主席說1.25兆是台灣對自己自我防衛的重要投資"},{"start":9503.797,"end":9510.473,"text":"敦促各政黨以即時 即時就是要緊急 要團結而且前瞻的方式推進這項預算"},{"start":9512.618,"end":9533.03,"text":"那是台灣連線共同主席說的參議院軍委會主席更直接說在野黨他被在野黨大幅削減國防預算感到失望那是他講的他可能不知道我們的進度在哪裡還有參議員匡熙恆說最近說的我最顧慮的就是台灣低估了中國的意圖"},{"start":9534.071,"end":9547.022,"text":"你們眼前明明已經有了香港這個先例所以請不要再讓同樣的悲劇在台灣重演我們都希望和平但請千萬不要天真最了解台灣的處長AIT處長古麗妍說"},{"start":9549.224,"end":9575.89,"text":"美國能幫助朋友的程度終究取決於他們願意為幫助自己付出多少努力那我們民進黨團這邊要講的事情是這個1.25兆是天花板它有三塊那如果依照國民黨跟民眾黨的榜本只剩軍購那你們可不可以告訴我們為什麼台灣之盾這個系統的升級能夠像以色列的鐵穹"},{"start":9578.191,"end":9602.943,"text":"美國的金蟲一樣讓大家覺得防護是更多重更安全的為什麼不好那系統升級就是一次性的努力那分好多年能夠做出來那還有飛鴻供應鏈無人機的產業那為什麼不值得支持那我覺得以上說明希望能夠說服我們的藍白兩黨支持不打折好謝謝范議員"},{"start":9606.084,"end":9631.209,"text":"那個台灣民眾黨團這個名稱這個那國民黨團能不能接受台灣民眾黨團所提的這個名稱如果可以的話台灣民眾黨團的是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例這個講起來應該是非常中庸而且精確度也很夠台灣民眾黨團你不堅持一下自己名稱嗎"},{"start":9633.383,"end":9651.788,"text":"對啊 這個在我們委員會討論的時候其實大家看起來是比較支持我們台灣民眾黨的版本的那國民黨團 民進黨團我們支持台灣民眾黨團這個名稱有意見嗎沒有意見嘛我們其實在委員會的時候是覺得這個台灣民眾黨的版本是可以南瓜進來我們那時候是沒有意見的"},{"start":9652.688,"end":9677.903,"text":"那國民黨團這邊名稱能不能支持我們先開始起碼要進入名稱這邊請劉維廷議員我跟主席報告一下因為這名稱可能跟後續的一些條文都會掛鉤如果後續的實施條文的精神不被影響的話我對名稱是沒有意見的以上那我們就後面繼續探討的條文的時候啊我們到時候再小心注意一下好不好名稱我們先通過台灣民眾黨團版本大家有沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝我們通過名稱"},{"start":9684.025,"end":9713.317,"text":"國安部沒有意見吧國安部國安部尊重大家的意見如果支持民眾黨團台灣民眾黨團的名稱OK好好謝謝我們現在進入行政院提案民眾黨團提案國民黨團提案的第一條有關立法目的的條文來各位委員請發言要精確精要一點請問針對第一條條文大家有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":9728.449,"end":9744.573,"text":"那我就先針對第一條,我覺得我們大家聚焦那我就直接講我們在國防外交討論的這個結論,因為其實差異最大的大概是兩個一個是非紅供應鏈,還有一個是這個就是T-DOM,就是我們的防空系統"},{"start":9745.313,"end":9763.773,"text":"那因為這個就直接連結到第四條就是那個項目大家的意見是不同的那這邊呢我們還是一樣堅持啦就是說第一個就是TDOM就是對於這個防空系統的整合對台灣當然是特別的重要你不能夠有各式各樣的防空系統結果你不整合那就等於這個防空系統沒有意義"},{"start":9764.734,"end":9778.606,"text":"那第二個就是呢因為這一次打造這個所謂的非紅供應鏈它的重點是它不但是能夠扶植我們的國防自主那它呢也能夠就是增加台灣的工作機會那我相信呢在這邊呢不管是這個國民黨還是民眾黨應該對於"},{"start":9781.668,"end":9805.957,"text":"我們用特別條例的這樣的一個方式有國防自主然後又可以增加台灣的工作機會我想這個應該是大家比較不會有意見啦所以呢是不是可以把這個飛鴻供應鏈重新放回來我覺得這個應該是我們的重中之重那這就只針對第一條 發言到這邊 謝謝謝謝沈博言的發言 劉錫廷委員請準備你發言嗎你肯定你還要發言 你趕緊我就直接點你名好了 謝謝謝謝主席啊"},{"start":9810.597,"end":9838.718,"text":"這個我想我們第一條的寫法當然就是跟著條文的名稱一起啦就既然是以對美採購為重點而且優先處理的項目那我想在裡面把它寫明我想是有必要的當然在裡面怎麼樣大家可以這個互相達成共識這個我覺得可以再商量一下但我覺得至少這個對美國政府及授權體制之軍事裝備及相關服務採購建構防衛能力等等相關的語句應該是要被保留的這我覺得大家看看能不能兼容而不偏廢啦我覺得可以往這個方向思考一下以上"},{"start":9843.852,"end":9859.153,"text":"我補充一下雖然這個當然難免啦在這種場合到最後我不希望今天主席都已經希望大家不要少一點政治啦這個另外一個我們跟另外兩個版本差異的是另外兩個黨直接寫了因應中共的情勢威脅嘛那我們的版本是因應國際情勢我覺得可以加個因應國際情勢的變化"},{"start":9860.675,"end":9889.111,"text":"因為我想中共的威脅包含在國際情勢的變化裡面但是我覺得也沒有必要這個特別標舉這件事情就是總體的變化它是有涵蓋的也就是說並沒有說要漏掉刻意不講我覺得很奇怪所以我覺得如果大家可以在這個地方大家達成一個共識用寬一點的方式來處理我想我們不會都不抵觸這個條文的精神嘛也不會影響它的相關效果也許可以剛剛名稱好像有一點點眉目如果這個東西大家可以發揮一點智慧的話我也覺得"},{"start":9889.871,"end":9893.555,"text":"我也覺得是有修正空間的 以上這個現在問題變得"},{"start":9896.531,"end":9919.83,"text":"變得有一點 有一點麻煩了不過沒有關係 我們一步一步往前推進臺灣民眾黨團要不要發表意見是 院長 非常感謝這個院長 召開這個協商不過如果照這樣的方式的話可能像是委員會的情況會再發生一次啦因為大家其實都蠻堅持自己的這個版本尤其 我覺得名稱可能還好啦因為這個很多實際上你真的到了深水區到這些條文的內容上可能大家都還是蠻"},{"start":9920.991,"end":9937.796,"text":"覺得自己的版本是比較好的那這樣協商是不是會有進展啊這再請院長多多的這個考慮一下 以上您對於剛才牛喜廷委員所提那樣的一個意見 貴黨的意見是什麼"},{"start":9939.034,"end":9950.021,"text":"這個要表明 人不同意就不同意 保留就保留我們還是覺得應該是要使用台灣民主黨這個版本了解 好 林竹英委員請發言"},{"start":9951.107,"end":9971.772,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天其實大家都希望是在這個條例的部分能夠有一個往前推進所以才會在第一條的部分我們希望就是用台灣民眾黨版本也可以那麼我先講一下就是說行政院的版本其實特別有提到是國內廠商的採購主要就是除了非紅供應鏈以外"},{"start":9972.992,"end":9996.49,"text":"我相信台中市長盧秀燕在接受媒體採訪的時候她特別也提到她來自於台中她身為台中市長我們很多的機工具都是在這個商工的部分就在台中所以其實我們在推這個的時候我們當然也是希望扶植台灣的在這個產業上面那剛剛牛委員所特別提到的是不是就不要寫中共是把這個國際情勢的部分放進去我認為其實是不是要讓顧部長來回應一下因為我覺得如果我們爭執在文字"},{"start":10002.274,"end":10005.396,"text":"這個部分其實是無助於就像剛剛王委員也講了深水區其實是在等一下我們要討論的這幾個採購的方向那麼這個都是比較是屬於涵蓋性概念性因為我們現在討論的是條例院長也非常清楚我們接下來還有預算要進來"},{"start":10019.406,"end":10045.531,"text":"那個才是真正的重中之重所以如果可以往前推進的我都同意說在文字上可以做修正可以揣摩的我們都問一下國防部的意見如果可以多增加然後甚至於說台灣民眾黨的版本裡面可以多增加一些什麼樣的字句進去我覺得大家的目標應該都是一樣就是條例緊迫的能夠把旗艦劃整成大家的共識"},{"start":10047.272,"end":10061.623,"text":"謝謝林柱英委員的發言顧部長請你用那個非常清楚的頭腦再一次說明你的想法吧不敢那個鮑委員長還有各位我想大家在委員會討論已經"},{"start":10064.297,"end":10079.389,"text":"說出這個最關鍵的就是國民黨堅持一定是要透過對美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備及相關服務採購也就是它只限於對美的軍事採購但我們認為這個特別預算的包括"},{"start":10080.129,"end":10097.894,"text":"自治跟商購的這個部分的額度大概是三千餘億元這個部分沒有辦法以年度預算來進行編列那麼我們希望在編列在這一次的特別預算我想這個跟第四條的這個能力建構有很大的關聯所以也因為這樣子產生了連動性"},{"start":10100.054,"end":10109.858,"text":"這個要請各位能夠參佐,是不是大家的共識,我想文字是一個問題,但是不限於只是對美軍購的項目,就這一點"},{"start":10119,"end":10128.152,"text":"想請教這個在黨就是說如果說把你們的部分包含進去我行政院提案的部分有沒有辦法接受就是把這個條文擴充"},{"start":10134.116,"end":10162.055,"text":"我覺得狀況就會變成其實就是我們在委員會討論的狀況嘛因為這個就跟第四項等等掛鉤還是這一次乾脆我們先討論一下金額跟有沒有共識這一段先處理因為我覺得那些大的問題解決的這些細節上的東西速度就會很快我覺得可能是這樣要不然我們每次都會因為討論細節的東西然後說因為跟後面掛鉤而無法處理然後我們又花很多時間在討論文字細節上我覺得這樣也不太效率啦所以是不是要直接進到深水區先做一次大體的討論我覺得這是可以思考的 以上"},{"start":10162.295,"end":10162.445,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":10170.683,"end":10196.173,"text":"這關鍵 沈博洋請發言我很快速的回應就是說我也同意就是說當然我們可以先從金額來做討論不過因為討論到金額的時候又會討論到到底是對美軍工還是不是對就還是一樣 對對它其實還是會回到同樣一個問題啦所以但是剛剛冠廷委員提到的就是說能不能夠整合比如說因為其實在機密會議的時候我們就會去知道因為這公開的沒有辦法講但是就會知道它不是只有跟美國有關嘛"},{"start":10196.593,"end":10210.949,"text":"那所以說是不是能夠在這一個因為行政院的版本它的涵蓋很大所以我剛剛才講說至少有兩件事情我們可以討論一個是防空系統一個是非紅供應鏈嘛因為這兩個顯然是在其他的版本沒有被放進去的所以這是第一個可以討論的"},{"start":10211.71,"end":10239.445,"text":"那第二個就是說要不要把國家寫進去因為我還是要再度強調就是說我們今天提出這樣的一個條例是因為國防有需求那他有需求他要跟哪一國買這應該不是照理說不是條例的重點才對我們上一格最近通過的條例叫馬太安的救災的條例那馬太安救災條例裡面也不會講說因為我們要恢復光復鄉的農業這個農業的機具一定要跟日本的九寶田買"},{"start":10240.425,"end":10266.541,"text":"所以到最後我們的條例就叫做對日採購條例不會這個樣子所以照理說需求就是要強化國防的戰力是不是美國這個不會是這個條例的重點那所以我們回歸這件問題的話我們不要把這個美國強不需要強調在這邊因為你跟誰都可以買嘛那你的項目到底合不合格比如說防空系統大家有不滿意又或者說今天非紅工藝鏈大家有不滿意就可以聚焦在這邊談"},{"start":10267.701,"end":10291.262,"text":"談了之後就可以去確定說那到底金額我們的上限應該是多少以上 謝謝第四條 第五條那謝謝沈博洋委員發言那各位委員同仁 這個我是感覺是完完全全卡住我想我先休息十分鐘大概掌握這個黃金十分鐘趕快溝通一下好吧 溝通完畢我們來下達一下我們"},{"start":10294.939,"end":10297.695,"text":"初步的一個裁決 好不好好 休息十分鐘"},{"start":10518.68,"end":10519.508,"text":"確定下次是怎樣"},{"start":10674.292,"end":10686.731,"text":"好謝謝各黨團幹部各位列席官員請坐我們現在繼續開會時間已經到了五點半了好我們接下來請國防外交召委陳冠廷委員發言發言完畢之後我即將做宣告請陳委員陳召委請"},{"start":10689.195,"end":10717.346,"text":"院長還有我們在野黨的同事們那其實在幾週前我們跟很多參議員跟眾議員的這些國會的訪團我們都有見面過那在昨天這個夏興當初的參議員的訪團他有特別在致信給我們所有與會的同仁包含院長副院長還有牛委員跟王偉我們都有收到這個信那裡面不斷地強調說對於商購我們自主的能力的重視"},{"start":10718.266,"end":10734.751,"text":"那我們當然知道今天的爭點還是軍購跟加商購要不要那我們理解說在野黨他們的立場是要把商購放在其他的部分不是在這次的特別條例我們希望等一下院長做完宣告之後我們還是能夠"},{"start":10735.931,"end":10750.564,"text":"請院長發揮你的領導力盡量的可以跟在野黨的黨團的這些他們的總召們好好的來一方面也是說因為我們都理解到這個商購對國防預算的重要性它是我們自主的能力我們真的必須要擁有它所以"},{"start":10751.545,"end":10776.27,"text":"如果今天沒有結論的話是不是在非協商的時間可以請院長跟我們幾位年輕的委員能夠去跟貴黨的總召好好的討論一下商購到底有沒有機會可不可以盡量把它放進去這個是我們很誠摯的呼籲他現在還有一個總召叫陳金榮總召他也一樣非常重要好不好好 謝謝我們做一個宣告 顧部長請"},{"start":10777.652,"end":10795.658,"text":"我是有個提議啦不曉得大家覺得怎麼樣就是說因為現在條例跟預算有點卡在一起那我是說如果我們再排一個專報那我們把每個專報那大家就有點提前審預算的概念就是說覺得這樣子的案因為"},{"start":10796.533,"end":10816.988,"text":"因為現在國民黨說一定要軍購嘛 對不對那我們會提出一些自治跟商購的項目那麼在這個委員會裡面我們做個專報那大家就可以提前了解說這筆錢到底是用在什麼地方這筆錢用在什麼地方那麼這樣子是不是有助於大家最後有一些"},{"start":10818.271,"end":10834.588,"text":"我們講說有一點預審這個預算的概念然後最後大家要有一個共識這樣有沒有可能那有一些當然最後堅持說這個我一定要求要擺入年度預算有一些不能擺入特別預算最後當然還是要尊重這個"},{"start":10836.49,"end":10860.009,"text":"大院的這個表決嘛 對不對那這個時候也許國民黨跟民眾黨會比較更有這個全盤的了解來去了解這整個預算這個條例搭配預算的一個規劃的實際的內容好 謝謝顧部長這個提建議我們下禮拜就兵分二路一路就是陳昭偉這個地方您就排因為你是昭偉下禮拜輪值嘛你可以排啊"},{"start":10861.107,"end":10880.245,"text":"這是一路嘛第二路就是說我們下禮拜我這邊來負責就是黨團協商我們再一次來協商在這裡我誠懇要建議各黨團幹部我們今天是軍購相關條文進行的發言那我要特別拜託有兩個大象請大家一定要加強溝通一個採購項目另外一個經費"},{"start":10885.027,"end":10912.91,"text":"這兩個請大家一定要先行溝通那我會在下禮拜再一次來召開那今天因為中央政府總預算把它卡住了我們差不多四點多才開始討論時間實在是有點不夠所以下禮拜我可能會時間會稍微提早一點讓大家有充分的時間但為了有效發揮會議的主要的目的性跟宗旨希望大家能夠先行溝通那也請陳冠廷召委下禮拜就排一個顧部長所提的那個那時候大家"},{"start":10914.199,"end":10938.928,"text":"盡量踴躍參加,不要說到時候又沒聽到,這樣就沒有意思了好不好,國防部也釋出了善意,陳昭偉也排了那大家還是盡量踴躍參加,有問題可以在委員會那邊直接溝通,蔡董事長請院長講這個我補充一下啦,程序上第一個就是說,我剛剛已經請冠廷昭偉星期一就排"},{"start":10940.34,"end":10956.646,"text":"讓在野黨更加了解就是說為什麼條例我們可以先過有商購的這個項目但事先讓大家了解商購可能有哪些內容那這些內容如果大家覺得有一些其實是有必要"},{"start":10957.446,"end":10980.283,"text":"那有一些可能貴黨還有意見那至少有必要的他已經有這個法源可以來進行商購事先先讓大家了解商購的內容是什麼或許這個是有助於大家的溝通那星期一就排所以是不是院長我們星期四就再來召開超級新城這樣事先決定讓大家在排新城的時候拜喜"},{"start":10983.025,"end":10999.859,"text":"下禮拜一排報專報 禮拜四我們就來協商沒有 我不一定下禮拜四 說明禮拜三就排啦可以啦 我的意思是說 院長我意思是說你先有一個 如果大家都可以時間先定下來大家比較好 不然有等一下副總召又說他有什麼事情所以我就說兵分二路嘛"},{"start":11000.299,"end":11026.296,"text":"就陳昭偉這個地方先下禮拜一排我這個草野協商這邊立刻就來跟進來排但在這個排的之前要拜託大家針對項目跟經費問題還是溝通一下這一點要特別拜託大家好不好那我今天非常謝謝各位黨團幹部大家一起來參與謝謝各部會首長列席非常感謝大家我們就你放心我們私底下溝通"},{"start":11030.441,"end":11034.746,"text":"好 我們會擇期再來由我本人負責召集協商現在散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:30:55.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:31:11.935000+08:00","text":"謝謝民進黨的蔡總召、范書記長；謝謝國民黨團傅總召，還有沛祥書記長、宇甄；謝謝陳清\n龍陳總召；謝謝行政院列席的所有官員。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:31:13.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:31:33.289000+08:00","text":"現在會議正式開始，首先介紹行政院陳主計長，謝謝您，好久不見；人事總處的張副人事長\n，謝謝，歡迎；銓敘部的黃次長，謝謝，歡迎；內政部的劉部長，歡迎；國防部顧部長，歡迎\n；以及所有列席的閣員，非常謝謝大家今天下午一起來。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:31:33.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:31:41.993000+08:00","text":"我們今天朝野協商的題目主要有兩個：第一題是 115 年度總預算案相關事宜；第二題是軍購特\n別條例草案。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:31:42.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:32:01.884000+08:00","text":"跟大家特別報告一下，總預算案由於種種原因迄今尚未付委審查，我們今天主要\n就是邀大家一起來協商，希望能達成共識；第二題是大家都非常關切的軍購特別條例。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:32:03.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:32:10.610000+08:00","text":"我們現在依序進行協商，也要聽一下各黨團的寶貴意見。院長。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:32:10.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:32:14.572000+08:00","text":"好，請陳總召發言，國民黨團請準備，好不好？好，請。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:32:15.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:32:53.465000+08:00","text":"我在這邊有一個問題想先請教院長，我們的中央政府總預算形成現在的僵局，要由我\n們院長來主持協商，我想我們也了解院長的用心，但是今天對總預算的協商，目前行政院院本\n部……剛剛聽到我們院長的介紹，只有主計長代表主計總處，但院本部，行政院沒有派任何人\n員列席、參與。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:32:53.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:07.580000+08:00","text":"我先請教，今天我們的預算會形成這樣的僵局，最主要是行政院賴政府的一些作為，所以我\n們才會有這樣的預算僵局。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:08.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:19.943000+08:00","text":"今天院長要協商，我們台灣民眾黨也同意、也很樂意院長願意解決\n這樣的僵局，但是行政院都沒有派人來。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:20.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:40.339000+08:00","text":"過去針對預算這樣的問題，我們有提出相當多的意見\n，不曉得今天在場列席的，不管是部長或是主計處能夠做一些正面的回應嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:40.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:42.360000+08:00","text":"我在這邊先提出\n這樣的疑問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:42.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:50.186000+08:00","text":"我想陳主計長在預算方面有相當大的代表性，您希望是行政院的秘書長來嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:50.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:33:50.566000+08:00","text":"至少也要秘書長啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:33:54.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:03.158000+08:00","text":"行政院不派人，我們來協商中央政府總預算，我剛剛已經表明了\n……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:03.158000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:04.158000+08:00","text":"了解、了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:03.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:04.379000+08:00","text":"這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:06.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:12.407000+08:00","text":"清龍兄，您的意見表達完畢，我在想你要不要把你現在最關切的\n問題很清楚扼要地講出來？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:13.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:26.801000+08:00","text":"除了一部分就是屬於行政院要派一個院本部位階的代表，第二部分\n協 2\n才是真正實質的部分，就是台灣民眾黨黨團現在最關切的是什麼，造成今天總預算的延宕嘛，\n這一點可能要講清楚，好嗎？好，請。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:26.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:34:29.744000+08:00","text":"好，針對第二部分，由我來說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:34:30.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:02.808000+08:00","text":"我想台灣民眾黨針對總預算的部分，其實我們也提\n過非常非常多次了，基本上我們對上次行政院提出來的預算，基於上個會期通過的兩部法，包\n括軍人退休所得替代率的調整跟警察人員退休的部分，這些基本上並沒有涵蓋在這個預算裡，\n所以才造成這樣的僵局。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:03.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:32.970000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨這邊還是重申，雖然行政院對於通過的法律有一些不同的\n見解，這部其實是有副署的，只是他們預計要送去釋憲，我想在還沒有確定之前，我希望今天\n的協商還是可以達到一個共識，就是行政院可以把我們過去通過兩個法律裡面通過的預算部分\n能夠編在總預算裡面，以上。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:34.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:39.653000+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨團比較清楚的列出來關切的要點。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:39.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:44.582000+08:00","text":"現在請國民黨團發言，請林沛祥書記長發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:45.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:48.064000+08:00","text":"院長、各位在場的委員們。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:48.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:35:56.869000+08:00","text":"今天的討論其實不是預算問題而已，是一個更根本的問題\n，即我們到底要還要不要依法行政、依法審查？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:35:57.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:36:22.782000+08:00","text":"身為立法委員，我們當然有責任通過法案、審\n查預算，但也正是因為我們是立法委員，我們更沒有資格違法，一份不符合法定程序的總預算\n案，如果我們照單全收，那不叫有效率，那叫失職；那不叫配合國政，那叫破壞制度，所以這\n真的不是黨派之間的問題，這是憲政分際的問題，是法治國最基本的底線問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:36:22.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:36:51.493000+08:00","text":"從去年 8 月到現在，時間已經過了這麼久，行政院卻仍然不願意依法完整編列預算，把立法\n院已經三讀通過的法案排除在外，這不只是程序問題，這已經直接影響到人民的生活，該有的\n民生預算被卡住，該推動的政策被延宕，然後現在反過來說是立法院在擋預算，這有點像是考\n試不交考卷，然後怪老師不給分數，還順便說隔壁同學影響他發揮。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:36:52.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:37:17.042000+08:00","text":"老實講，過去 8 年完全執\n政或許讓某些人已經習慣了一些模式，行政院怎麼提，立法院就怎麼過；政策怎麼寫，立委就\n怎麼按，但抱歉，昨是今非，現在時空背景已經不同，立法院不是行政院的立法局，立法委員\n也不是橡皮圖章，如果我們今天連最基本的程序正義都守不住，那我們有什麼資格談民生、談\n改革、談進步？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:37:17.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:37:31.130000+08:00","text":"而且更遺憾的，在這段協商的過程裡面，在野黨的立場其實非常單純，我們一\n再重申，撇開黨派，優先照顧民生，我們並不是為了卡而卡，更不是為了反對而反對。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:37:31.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:37:51.972000+08:00","text":"相反的\n，我們提出了很多具體正面的建議，譬如說，我們可以先就已經符合法定程序、沒有爭議的民\n生預算優先處理，讓地方補助、社福支出、基礎建設都不受影響，或者說針對行政院尚未依法\n補正的部分訂出明確的時程，讓程序回到正軌，而不是無限期拖延。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:37:52.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:38:14.238000+08:00","text":"這些都是解方，而且是可\n以立即執行的解方，但是很可惜，我們現在看到行政院執政單位目前的選擇比較像是把責任先\n丟出去，再來談解決方案，甚至有一種奇怪的邏輯，行政院可以不先依法編列預算，但是立法\n院一定要先違法審查，否則就是不顧民生。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:38:15.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:38:23.181000+08:00","text":"這種說法如果成立，那未來制度就變成規則是參考\n用的，責任是別人的，那我們還需要法律做什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:38:24.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:38:34.212000+08:00","text":"其實我們都很清楚，我想三黨都很清楚，人民要的很簡單，不是誰輸誰贏，而是事情能不能\n做、生活能不能過，所以我們今天的呼籲也很簡單。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:38:34.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:38:55.211000+08:00","text":"第一，請行政院回到依法行政的軌道，儘\n速提出符合法定程序的總預算案；第二，讓立法院可以回到應有的角色，依法審查，而不是在\n協 3\n違法與背書之間做選擇；第三，朝野一起把民生擺在第一位，用制度解決問題，而不是用情緒\n製造對立。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-15T15:38:56.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:39:09.203000+08:00","text":"我們總預算是可以討論的、可以調整的，甚至可以吵架的，但依法這件事情不應該\n變成可以協商的選項，不然哪一天連守法我們都要來表決通過的時候，那我們好像真的太忙了\n一點，以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:39:10.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:39:10.421000+08:00","text":"謝謝林書記長發言。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:39:10.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:39:11.442000+08:00","text":"現在請民進黨團蔡總召發言。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:39:11.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:39:44.813000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我想一開始好像又進入到了一些程序的問題，其實民進黨最贊成要依法行\n政、要依法審查、要依法編列預算，所以其實我不太了解林沛祥委員所提到的，行政院哪裡沒\n有依法編列預算？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:39:45.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:39:46.033000+08:00","text":"這個我不太懂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:39:46.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:40:05.002000+08:00","text":"如果根據民眾黨團剛剛所提到的，我的理解應該是指立法院\n三讀通過的，包括軍人待遇條例裡面要給軍人加薪，包括對警消的福利待遇等等。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:40:06.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:40:23.456000+08:00","text":"正如同我講\n的，憲法規定得很清楚，立法院不得替行政院增加預算，我想這個大家都清楚，所以立法院增\n加了預算要叫行政院去執行，這個本身就違憲。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:40:23.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:40:32.744000+08:00","text":"我講違憲，可能國民黨也不同意，那沒有關係\n，我們就讓憲法法庭來做決定，所以首先我們必須釐清，它其實沒有叫違法編列。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:40:33.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:40:39.347000+08:00","text":"雙方在這個\n問題上面，到底立法院可不可以替行政院增加預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:40:39.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:40:57.172000+08:00","text":"民進黨認為違憲，但國民黨跟民眾黨認為\n沒有，那沒有關係，國家有憲法可以來解決兩院之間的爭端，所以首先我們必須釐清，或許現\n在比較公允的講，它正處於這樣的一個階段當中，所以這個我想必須要來討論。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:40:57.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:41:18.988000+08:00","text":"民進黨的態度也很清楚，特別是我一直在強調，這幾個月來我一直在表達善意，也就是民進\n黨黨團也好，行政院也好，對於軍人的加薪或者對於警消相關的福利，其實我們是很願意支持\n的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:41:19.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:41:57.247000+08:00","text":"民進黨對於軍人的加薪，如果各位翻開歷史就可以知道，從蔡英文總統一直到賴清德總統\n，這十年來，我們對軍公教是 4 次調薪，調薪的幅度是 14%；對於軍人，遠的就不講了，光 114\n年我們就有 5 項的職務加給，依照其繁重程度或者是不是離島、山區，我們都給予加給，花了\n國家 146.4 億用來提高軍人的福利。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:41:57.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:42:28.880000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，如果國民黨、民眾黨黨團覺得還是不夠，\n本席其實也非常同意，因為軍人太重要了，面對對岸的威脅，怎麼樣讓軍人的待遇更好，怎麼\n樣實質在金錢上面、福利上面，對於他們保家衛國、捍衛中華民國的辛苦，我們給予他們更多\n的福利，其實民進黨團都是支持的，行政院卓院長跟賴總統也表示，他們都是支持的。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:42:29.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:42:32.204000+08:00","text":"所以我\n們可不可以採取一個不要違憲的方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:42:32.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:42:44.858000+08:00","text":"也就是如果大家都覺得他們很辛苦，在某一個程度上應\n該加薪或者增加他們的福利，我們應該做一個這樣的決議，然後請行政院提出版本。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:42:45.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:43:05.897000+08:00","text":"因為立法\n院不可以自己幫人家加預算，所以由行政院提一個版本，我們朝野三黨再坐下來討論，看這樣\n的版本適不適合或者哪裡該做調整，我想這個叫做善意，在合法、合憲的情況底下，民進黨團\n很誠懇的表達了這個善意。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:43:06.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:43:35.975000+08:00","text":"所以對於這些加薪什麼的，我覺得很簡單，我們把總預算付委，民進黨團也在這裡表達立場\n，我們很願意、很願意、很願意，講三次，因為很重要，來讓我們的警消、軍公教都一起，在\n照顧他們的架構底下，我們來增加他們的福利，甚至適度調薪，但這個都必須要跟行政院討論\n。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:43:35.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:43:56.073000+08:00","text":"除了違憲的問題之外，我們也希望讓他們不要有相對剝奪感，就儘量我們來設計，立法院來\n討論、行政院提出案子，我們儘量依照他們勤務繁重的不同、性質的不同，都一起來討論。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:43:56.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:44:29.710000+08:00","text":"也\n協 4\n不要說只有處理軍人，你讓我們的公務同仁、這麼多的公務人員產生相對剝奪感，好像國家只\n有對軍人比較好，其他的公務同仁也沒有得到相對的回應或照顧，我覺得這個也不是太好，所\n以這必須要在國家財政預算可以吻合，前提我們都要照顧軍公教或者警消，然後合理性跟公平\n性都得到照顧，在這個情況底下，大家怎麼會反對做這個事情呢？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:44:30.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:44:34.994000+08:00","text":"但是立法院自己決定，我們\n都很清楚這個就是違憲嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:44:36.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:44:55.288000+08:00","text":"國民黨是國會最大黨，民眾黨支持國民黨，也形成了……執政必須\n要尊重，因為這是民意，但是大家也不要忘記，行政權的賴總統也是民意選出來的，所以民意\n跟民意之間有衝突，我們就請憲法釋憲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:44:55.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:44:58.069000+08:00","text":"第二個，憲法規定要怎麼解決這個爭端？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:45:00.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:45:08.891000+08:00","text":"不然就是我\n們對行政院提不信任案，然後國會重新改選，回到問民意，這個就是中華民國憲法。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:45:09.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:45:17.576000+08:00","text":"此刻不管\n你支不支持、贊不贊成，你要維護中華民國憲法，此刻解決爭端就是這兩個方法。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:45:19.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:45:23.141000+08:00","text":"如果這兩個\n方法大家都不願意做，我們還是回到議場上。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:45:24.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:45:43.442000+08:00","text":"我們釋出善意，但同樣的，我們希望國民黨跟民\n眾黨也釋出善意，讓預算可以付委審查，否則大家在這邊吵這些東西，此刻各地方政府所需要\n的預算、人民所需要嗷嗷待哺的這些預算都卡在立法院。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:45:45.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:07.136000+08:00","text":"我的發言一開始就很有誠意的提出民進黨團的想法，這個想法一定程度我也跟行政院長、行\n政院溝通過，他們也支持、跟黨團有同樣的想法，所以是不是請國民黨跟民眾黨一起以蒼生為\n念，大家共同來支持，讓預算在禮拜五可以付委？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:08.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:22.049000+08:00","text":"預算付委之後也不是通過，付委之後兩黨可\n以再發揮強力監督，該可以做的就儘速讓他做；不可以做的部分，該刪除當然就應該被討論、\n被刪除。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:22.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:31.600000+08:00","text":"我的想法是這個樣子，所以在今天的朝野協商開始之前，我先把我的立場、想法跟善\n意提出來。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:33.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:35.147000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡總召很清楚的說明立場。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:35.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:37.652000+08:00","text":"請陳主計長表達一下意見，好嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:37.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:42.262000+08:00","text":"大家現在都眼巴巴看著你，你講完之後，三個黨團會用休\n息時間開始進行討論。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:45.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:46:50.356000+08:00","text":"院長、各位總召，還有各位委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:46:51.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:47:15.685000+08:00","text":"我針對 115 年度總預算案說明，115 年度沒有\n審議通過的有 2,992 億不能動支，新興有 1,017 億，舊計畫延續的部分有 1,805 億，還有第一預\n備金、第二預備金有 170 億。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:47:15.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:47:47.200000+08:00","text":"雖然立法院有先行同意動支 718 億，但是仍具高度不確定性，如\n果同意暫時動支，將來有所刪減，行政部門就會有所顧慮，所以在立法院沒有同意動支的 2,274\n億裡面，包括國防部的裝備、維修、油料籌補，還有重大交通建設等。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:47:48.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:47:58.282000+08:00","text":"再來談到我們沒有編列\n軍人待遇和警察人員條例的部分，因為人事總處也有派代表來，是不是要請他再補充？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:47:59.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:25.841000+08:00","text":"就整個來講，因為這個部分涉及到軍警教職併用機關薪資結構失衡，對公務人員退休撫卹也\n出現不合理的差別待遇，為了顧及不同公務人員之間的身分和公平還有衡平性，所以針對這個\n部分，我們暫時等到釋憲結果再來編列，並不是不編列。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:26.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:34.233000+08:00","text":"院裡也支持能夠儘量把總預算付委，\n讓整個預算能夠順利進行。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:34.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:35.414000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:35.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:45.968000+08:00","text":"主計長，容我提醒你一下，剛剛蔡其昌總召所提出的解決方案，即提出一個主決議的方式，\n站在主計的立場，您的意見什麼？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:45.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:50.454000+08:00","text":"因為這個非常關鍵，他提出的是一個 solution，你有沒有意見\n？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:50.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:51.836000+08:00","text":"接下來再請人事總處發言。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:52.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:48:55.300000+08:00","text":"這一點是非常關鍵的，請您表達看法，好嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:48:59.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:12.153000+08:00","text":"解決方案必須在院裡來裁定，本身並不是金額的問題，而是整個結構的問題，所以\n協 5\n這個部分還是請人總來解釋。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:15.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:23.039000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我們還請是不是可以先行付委，大家再共同來研\n擬方案？以上。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:24.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:30.971000+08:00","text":"我覺得有卓院長上身的感覺，很多內容跟卓院長講的都如出一轍，沒關係。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:31.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:34.994000+08:00","text":"請人事總處以及\n銓敘部表達一下意見，好嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:34.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:37.395000+08:00","text":"請陳清龍總召稍待一下，我們聽行政部門報告完，好嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:38.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:42.718000+08:00","text":"請張副\n人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:42.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:49:44.699000+08:00","text":"張副人事長秋元：院長、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:49:47.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:50:17.191000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛蔡總召也講了很多，我們人事總處之前在委\n員會的時候，蘇人事長也是有特別強調，幫公務同仁爭取應該有的權利其實是我們自己本身的\n職責，剛剛講的兩個條例，因為行政院已經在釋憲當中，當然最後會尊重憲法法庭的決定，該\n編的預算就應該要編。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:50:17.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:51:01.159000+08:00","text":"在這個時刻我們還是會建議先讓總預算付委，就照剛剛蔡總召說明的，\n由行政院相關的部會……因為一般公務員的預算是人事總處，我們也一直在研擬，我們之前對\n外也有講，也在蒐集各種財經指標，我們的方案也一直在研擬，會按照正規的程序提到行政院\n，對全面性的公務人員待遇、軍公教待遇調整的部分，我們會處理。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:51:02.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:51:38.420000+08:00","text":"在軍人跟警消的部分，我跟大家報告，從 105 年到現在，軍人的部分其實行政院已經年增預\n算大概 210 億，光去年各種包括志願役的加給，包括其他各種類型的戰鬥加給或者是電偵加給\n等等這些，其實也增加了 170.9 億，那是年增的預算，警消的部分大家當然都很清楚，各黨派的\n委員其實都很關心。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:51:40.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:20.228000+08:00","text":"最近各地方政府也都一直有在對外說明，就是行政院其實 3 月的時候已經\n核定了警察繁重勤務的加成，包括刑事加成都調高，包括消防的危險加成也都調高，總計大概\n一年會增加 31 億的經費，年度就會增加 31 億的經費，其他各種類型、進才的需要等等，包括\n工程人員、學校老師等等，我們就各種不同的類別也都持續在做調薪。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:23.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:41.882000+08:00","text":"如果今天大家有共識把\n總預算付委，接下來我們也會跟行政院各部會對公務員薪資調整的部分，能夠按照我們一般的\n程序來處理，以上。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:43.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:45.003000+08:00","text":"謝謝張副人事長，謝謝。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:45.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:47.223000+08:00","text":"我們請銓敘部黃次長好嗎？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:47.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:47.463000+08:00","text":"請表達意見。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃次長新雛","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:48.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:52:54.584000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、各位委員，在這個案子跟我們銓敘部有關的就是警察條例的修正。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃次長新雛","start":"2026-04-15T15:52:55.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:53:12.732000+08:00","text":"我們是\n負責警察條例修正之後退休警消人員月退休金所得差額的審定，將近有 4 萬件要重行審定的部\n分，我們銓敘部已經完成這些退休警消人員 4 萬件的重行審定。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃次長新雛","start":"2026-04-15T15:53:13.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:53:33.686000+08:00","text":"重行審定之後有一些退休金所\n得替代率的差額，因為它是依照警察條例來的，所以警察條例也寫說是行政院編列預算來支應\n差額的部分，這個部分因為涉及預算的編列，我們銓敘部就尊重行政院的權責，以上報告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:53:33.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T15:53:36.947000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:53:36.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T15:53:40.208000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳總召，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:53:40.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:54:16.049000+08:00","text":"好，我剛剛有表達，我聽到民進黨蔡其昌總召的發言，如果剛剛那個發言內容是由行\n政院院長還是院本部出席人員的發言，跟蔡其昌總召發言是一致的，我覺得今天韓院長就跟我\n們台灣民眾黨、國民黨一樣……我們非常尊重院長，大家願意一起來解決預算這樣的一個僵局\n。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:54:17.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:54:49.237000+08:00","text":"我們今天看到的，剛剛包括銓敘部也提了，主計長也講了，關於 718 億的新增計畫、新興預\n算，立法院已經三讀通過，請行政院可以來執行，主計總處也把公文丟給各行政單位了，但是\n行政院院長不同意支用。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:54:50.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:55:28.373000+08:00","text":"今天如果行政院院長還是行政院的代表在這裡說我們有什麼方案可以\n協 6\n來趕快解決、趕快來處理，讓民眾需要的 TPASS，以及水災等災害必須要緊急使用的預算可以\n先行支用，今天主計長在這裡，他都沒辦法決定能不能用了，我相信蔡其昌總召及民進黨黨團\n也沒辦法決定可不可以用。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:55:29.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:55:59.973000+08:00","text":"今天行政院不派員出席這個協商會議，包括剛剛銓敘部所提警消、\n替代役的部分要重新審定，他們也完成相關差額的審定了，但要不要編預算、要不要追加預算\n來編列，也不是銓敘部可以決定的，也不是今天在場的主計長可以決定的。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:00.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:01.314000+08:00","text":"行政院呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:02.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:05.337000+08:00","text":"行政院\n長和行政院的代表呢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:06.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:16.723000+08:00","text":"我們今天要來共同解決預算的僵局，我講難聽一點，行政院就給我們立\n法院「洗臉」，他連派員都不用啊！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:17.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:28.692000+08:00","text":"院長，我們很尊重你，我們都願意一起來解決這樣的僵局\n，但是行政院不出席，我覺得院長應該裁示先休息，我們討論一下，好不好？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:31.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:40.977000+08:00","text":"補充介紹一下，除了黨團幹部之外，有陳永康委員、桃園選區牛煦庭委員、林楚茵委員、嘉\n義選區陳冠廷委員一起來參加。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:43.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:45.725000+08:00","text":"現在黨團幹部要二輪發言，請稍微等一下，麻煩蔡總召。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:48.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:51.357000+08:00","text":"我只是簡單回應一下他就好了。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:51.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:54.899000+08:00","text":"好，請，這沒問題啊！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:54.899000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T15:56:55.899000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:56:55.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:57:01.282000+08:00","text":"跟清龍總召報告一下，也跟你做個回應。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:57:01.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:57:14.714000+08:00","text":"我們都很尊重院長，院長的開會通知裡面並\n沒有行政院，這一點跟你說明一下，因為你一直罵，我就一直替院長感到擔心，因為看起來你\n的箭頭都指向他。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:57:15.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:57:22.521000+08:00","text":"其實不是行政院不來，你看那個列席的單位就是依照院長的指示，該來的人\n都來了。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:57:23.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:57:35.714000+08:00","text":"第二件事情我也要跟你講，如果剛剛我講的清龍總召是同意的，那會後我可以請行政\n院跟你打個電話，來證明我在這裡說的是不是算數。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:57:37.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:57:40.076000+08:00","text":"這兩件事情我先跟你說明一下。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:57:41.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:58:13.589000+08:00","text":"第三個是關於 718 億，也就是立法院決議先行動支新興計畫的經費，挑新興計畫部分出來湊\n起來 718 億可以先行支用，如果總預算大家今天協商願意付委，那針對這 718 億，在星期五的\n時候民進黨黨團也會提一個案子，就是要再寫明行政院未來用這 718 億的時候，我們不會刪啦\n！","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:58:15.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:58:26.233000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯大家就清楚知道為什麼行政院不敢用，原因就是因為我們通過了之後，事實上總預\n算還沒有審，我們只是叫他先用，那他到底要用多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:58:26.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:58:47.206000+08:00","text":"譬如我們說 718 億他先用，結果他真的\n把 718 億全部用完了，結果回過頭來我們有一天要審預算的時候，我們把人家刪了 30 億，也就\n是我們並沒有通過 718 億，而是 718 億再減 30 億，請問一下那短差的 30 億誰要來負責？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:58:47.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:58:49.527000+08:00","text":"所以\n公務同仁不敢違法嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:58:50.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:09.796000+08:00","text":"我再一次跟清龍總召表示不好意思，我跟你說明一下，不是要跟你挑戰，我只是說大家都可\n以照這個規矩，如果大家同意付委，禮拜五我們就可以再提一個主決議，就是之後我們不會去\n刪減這個預算，如果行政院也同意他就可以馬上用。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:12.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:17.679000+08:00","text":"我今天很誠意的來跟大家拜託，希望可以\n順利好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:17.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:18.519000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:18.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:19.159000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄書記長請發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:21.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:23.522000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長及各黨團代表。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:24.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:32.006000+08:00","text":"其實我們今天在這個地方討論總預算希望趕快讓它付委，大\n家也知道社會都有給我們壓力，這個不用互相欺騙啦！","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:35.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:35.768000+08:00","text":"這個史無前例嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:36.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T15:59:45.313000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨是一個比\n較新興的政黨，你們講這個理由我是認為不通啦，為什麼我會認為不通？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T15:59:46.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:04.079000+08:00","text":"你們和國民黨講的理\n協 7\n由差不多，就是軍人跟警消加薪通過案，行政院沒有編預算，所以你們擋總預算，清龍總召你\n們的意思應該差不多是這樣嘛！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:06.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:26.360000+08:00","text":"我看中國國民黨在這個地方比較資深的就是傅崐萁委員，他從\n第 5 屆到第 7 屆，那個時候差不多是阿扁在執政，第 8 屆、第 9 屆很可惜，我們兩個剛好交錯\n，我是第 8 屆進來直到第 9 屆，他那個時候跑去做縣長，後來我們第 10 屆跟第 11 屆都在立法院\n。","quality":0.527},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:26.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:34.441000+08:00","text":"各位想想看，我為什麼說它史無前例？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:36.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:43.969000+08:00","text":"執政者有執政的責任，在野的其實也有它的角色，立\n法院重不重要？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:44.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:54.297000+08:00","text":"太重要了，對於全國所有的國政，立法委員都可以表示意見，可是到最後是不\n是全部都是立法院可以做決定？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:55.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:00:55.898000+08:00","text":"這個就有問號了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:00:57.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:01.583000+08:00","text":"我為什麼講說執政者有它的責任，在野黨有它的角色？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:01:03.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:06.650000+08:00","text":"韓院長選過總統，他以後也有可能再\n選總統，也有可能當選，不要笑他，我很看重他，你知不知道？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:01:06.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:07.250000+08:00","text":"但是有一個重點……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:01:14.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:32.212000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，有一個重點，韓國瑜院長如果今天當總統，我如果是在野黨的話，很簡\n單，我就拿著每一張你韓國瑜在競選總統時的政見，問韓院長或韓總統你以前在選舉的時候開\n過什麼支票？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:01:32.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:34.953000+08:00","text":"譬如你有 10 張支票，我就要求你來兌現，這個叫做在野黨來監督你。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:01:40.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:01:50.961000+08:00","text":"我總不能學\n你們，看一看，我們的人數不算少，不管韓國瑜當選了，另外再開 20 張支票，要求他兌現，譬\n如從臺中弄一條高速鐵路或者什麼樣的重大建設，但是這些全部都不在競選支票裡面。","quality":0.693},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:08.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:12.669000+08:00","text":"現在國\n、民兩黨就是撿石頭給人家擔著，可不可以？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:13.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:15.290000+08:00","text":"可以，但沒有決定權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:17.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:30.835000+08:00","text":"所以蔡其昌總召剛剛提到\n，立法院要增加行政院的支出，如果行政院主動或者願意提出，我覺得可以。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:32.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:43.917000+08:00","text":"其實今天大家都有釋出善意，不用過度來攻防，我說話一向不太好聽，但是我覺得我講話都\n還算講道理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:45.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:53.320000+08:00","text":"各位想想看，每一個政黨在執政的時候都有照顧，國民黨在執政的時候有沒有照\n顧軍人跟警察？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:53.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:02:55.281000+08:00","text":"也有，不會沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:02:55.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:02.831000+08:00","text":"人家馬英九 8 年執政的時候也照顧過一次，加了 3%，要不要\n給他拍手？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:03.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:03.834000+08:00","text":"當然要給他拍手。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:04.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:11.342000+08:00","text":"從蔡英文到賴清德這 10 年裡面有 4 次、14%，幅度確實比國民黨\n還多。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:12.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:13.543000+08:00","text":"這代表什麼意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:16.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:23.210000+08:00","text":"如果國民黨在執政的時候，立法院突然又開出好幾張支票，要求國民\n黨政府、馬英九總統要幫軍人加多少、幫警消加多少，我相信執政者也會覺得為難。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:33.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:03:49.579000+08:00","text":"執政黨有它的角色，國會當然有國會的角色，對所有各個族群也好、各類的公職也好、公務\n人員也好，或者對人民做更加的照顧，那是應該。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:03:50.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:00.766000+08:00","text":"但問題是立法院可不可以制定一個法律，說\n所有的公務人員太辛苦了，每一個人一個月加薪 20 萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:02.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:08.231000+08:00","text":"死了，如果通過這樣的法律的話，行政\n院要不要買單？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:08.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:26.698000+08:00","text":"如果立法院今天通過的是所有的公務人員從委任開始，或者認為簡任的實在是\n太辛苦了，年終獎金法定以後變成是 6 個月，立法院可不可以立這樣的法？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:27.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:36.323000+08:00","text":"如果立出來以後，\n現在你們說沒有照你們的話去做的話，所有的總預算連付委都不給付委，你們這叫做什麼？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:37.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:40.786000+08:00","text":"叫\n做選輸以後想要自己來當家，讓人很為難。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:41.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:47.448000+08:00","text":"每一個政黨都有機會執政，你們台灣民眾黨最沒氣魄了，你們真的以為你們只有 8 席而已嗎\n？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:47.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:50.039500+08:00","text":"你們就沒氣魄，在這裡亂弄法律，弄到自己變衰。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:50.039500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T16:04:52.631000+08:00","text":"你們應該大器一點，現在是民進黨在執政\n，你們在野的就做好監督，看看民進黨開的支票有沒有跳票。","quality":0.268},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:04:52.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:05:10.600000+08:00","text":"但現在不是如此，你選輸了卻想\n要當老大，但你們就是沒機會當老大，你們就只能跟國民黨一起合作，就是這樣子而已，講難\n聽一點，就是這樣子而已，這樣不好，這樣你們永遠不會執政，老百姓會覺得你們是來亂的。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:05:11.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:05:45.290000+08:00","text":"協 8\n沒錯，你們是發揮關鍵的力量，沒錯，但那是關鍵的破壞力量；至於中國國民黨所提照顧警察\n、警消的部分，本席認為那個金額不大，但是軍人的部分則請大家再來討論看看，就是增加對\n軍人的照顧的部分，我們再來想一下，看看哪裡照顧不夠，同時請國防部顧立雄部長再來討論\n一下，再來予以增加，這才有一個談的基礎。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:05:45.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:05:55.477000+08:00","text":"而且這也是應由行政院、國防部自己來發動，不\n是你們想要怎樣就怎樣，這也把立法委員膨脹得太高了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:05:57.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:06:12.212000+08:00","text":"我再講一次，所有涉及到國家預算的，立法委員都可以管，立法委員都可以表示意見，但不\n是做最後的決定，不是你來主張要怎麼樣，行政有他的主動性，立法委員在這裡弄這個法律，\n到最後變成你要解釋大半天。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:06:12.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:06:24.644000+08:00","text":"比方說，你說沒有啦，總預算沒過對老百姓的施政不會有所延宕\n，像 TPASS、治水等新興預算，若是很重要的，國民黨跟台灣民眾黨會先在立法院再提個案，\n然後再決議通過，所以不會有問題，但那是因為民意已經燒到你們的屁股上了，所以何必這麼\n迂迴呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:06:37.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:06:41.398000+08:00","text":"我們就大大方方地替老百姓做事情，我們很大方嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:06:42.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:06:56.467000+08:00","text":"要治水的或是民生真的會用到的\n，總預算是一本的，總預算沒有付委，你說沒關係，舊的繼續使用就好，那剩下那 2,200 億你怎\n麼辦？","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:06:56.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:09.176000+08:00","text":"所以本席跟院長有這樣一個建議，就是大家各退一步，國家是大家的，以後大家都有機\n會執政，這個史無前例的情況，以後就不要再發生了。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:09.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:14.140000+08:00","text":"大家以後都有機會，國民黨就努力一點\n、運氣更好一點，或者說不定有一天是台灣民眾黨執政，若還有人再用這種方法，我就會罵他\n，立法院怎可以這樣無法無天！","quality":0.354},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:27.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:38.783000+08:00","text":"因為民進黨選輸了台灣民眾黨，是台灣民眾黨在當家，結果我\n們就弄一些法律，弄一些你們當選總統時都沒有提過的政見，進而幫你們做決定，這哪說得通\n？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:40.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:40.684000+08:00","text":"輸的人卻要當老大？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:42.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:45.826000+08:00","text":"所以我是覺得這個大家可能要再想一下，好不好？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:45.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:46.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:48.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:48.828000+08:00","text":"牛委員，你稍微等一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:49.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:52.829000+08:00","text":"我先建議一下，接著就休息 10 分鐘，大家\n來溝通一下。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:55.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:55.550000+08:00","text":"因為國民黨團還欠一次發言，所以請國民黨團傅總召發言。","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:55.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:55.690000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:55.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:07:56.791000+08:00","text":"我看今天還是淪為雞同雞講，我們是人，人是坐在這一排，我們是人。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:07:57.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:08:31.477000+08:00","text":"我\n實在是聽不太懂，連我第幾屆的事情都拿出來講，我們經過陳水扁的年代，現在開始有點懷念\n了，跟賴清德比起來，那時真的是值得懷念。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:08:33.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:09:04.825000+08:00","text":"當時雖然朝小野大，但是在立法院三讀通過所謂\n民進黨所說增加預算的提案，在扁政府任內的 8 年通通執行了，尊重國會，三讀通過的通通都\n執行，大家都是有商有量，而不是像現在，賴清德總統這個政權到現在從來都沒有跟我們有任\n何一次的協商，包括跟在野黨黨主席或是跟政黨，從不協商。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:09:06.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:09:27.932000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在真的很好奇，本席\n實在不太想講話，但是今天代表國民黨，而且你都唸到我們國民黨頭上了，我們就不得不講了\n，這個新興計畫有 718 億，包括 TPASS 等等，立法院都三讀通過了，完全依照預算法且已經拿\n出來通過了。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:09:29.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:09:47.761000+08:00","text":"我今天很意外的是，主計長突然尊重立法院了，我很驚訝，主計長，你什麼時候\n尊重過立法院？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:09:49.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:09:53.306000+08:00","text":"今天說到我們這個沒有做決議，萬一到時候刪除怎麼辦？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:09:53.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:09:53.766000+08:00","text":"已經用了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:09:55.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:03.250000+08:00","text":"你還怕我\n們會刪除所以不敢用，立法院通過的你都可以不編，還會怕我們刪除所以不敢用！","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:07.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:09.573000+08:00","text":"真的是雞同\n雞講，不知道在講什麼。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:11.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:16.053000+08:00","text":"更重要的是，真的是被刪掉了就不能用嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:16.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:19.495000+08:00","text":"像我們的營業基金、非營\n業基金，哪一次在審查時不是說他們用完了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:20.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:21.576000+08:00","text":"同樣的場景都在這裡發生啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:22.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:25.439000+08:00","text":"哪一年不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:25.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:27.761000+08:00","text":"不是都給用了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:28.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:29.482000+08:00","text":"哪有說像現在 TPASS 都不敢用？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:31.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:41.513000+08:00","text":"所以都是同樣的場景，我們覺得真的是很奇\n協 9\n怪，更不要講在 2016 年到 2024 年有八成的案子都是輾壓通過的，在院會表決通過。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:42.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:46.134000+08:00","text":"剛剛有人\n說現在不是立法院表決就有用，那過去不是立法院表決就有用嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:47.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:10:57.717000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡也要特別強調，我們在這邊協商時不要再提憲法法庭，5 個人就可以開會！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:10:57.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:15.343000+08:00","text":"本來是\n由 15 個大法官組成的憲法法庭，竟然才 5 個人就可以開會、可以做決議，另外 3 個大法官在外\n面罵他們違法開會，這樣的憲法法庭在全世界哪一個民主國家禁得起考驗？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:15.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:17.105000+08:00","text":"這種東西還是一個\n合憲的法庭？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:18.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:22.550000+08:00","text":"還要把國會的事情推到這種 5 人的憲法法庭？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:24.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:33.472000+08:00","text":"我們要特別強調，為什麼我們天天\n受到這麼多工具的中傷、抹黑卻還是在忍耐？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:34.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:39.053000+08:00","text":"因為我們的堅持是必須為這個國家留才，我們必\n須要忍耐。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:40.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:11:53.729000+08:00","text":"我們今天強調的這三件，主計總處都不編，行政院都不編，這是立法院通過的，包括公教停\n砍，現在物價漲成什麼樣子？","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:11:54.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:12:26.867000+08:00","text":"這些把一生奉獻給國家的人，包括在座各位除了政務官以外的事\n務官，都是終身奉獻給國家的，然後突然有一天告訴你，我們沒有信賴保護原則，我們讓你沒\n有辦法生活，當一流的人都不進入國家機關服務的時候，讓三流的人進入國家行政體系，這就\n是三流的政府，所以才要停砍，因為物價到底漲了多少？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:12:27.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:12:31.229000+08:00","text":"已經 7 年了，本來在第 4 年就應該調\n整了，結果沒有，現在都 7 年了。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:12:32.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:13:07.477000+08:00","text":"再來講軍人加薪，我們的天價軍購不斷的疊加，但是職業軍\n人的員額明顯不足，起薪只有 3 萬 5,300 元的職業軍人要上戰場養家活口，我們也是順應軍人不\n斷的反映，他們才只有 3 萬 5,300 元，我們必須要讓軍人能夠沒有後顧之憂、能夠安家、能夠保\n護臺灣，本來就應該要來珍惜我們的軍人。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:13:08.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:13:16.365000+08:00","text":"而且更重要的是即使買了這麼多武器，可是沒有足\n額的專業軍人來操作，也是枉然啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:13:18.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:13:25.120000+08:00","text":"現在編現比根本就不足，買了這麼多武器，有多少專業的\n軍人可以操作？","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:13:28.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:13:53.887000+08:00","text":"更不要講警消的工作都是最危險的，我們希望讓這些警消退休人員能夠安養終\n老，也為國家爭取更多人才投入我們政府，所以給他們一套比較好、比較完整的退休計畫，我\n想這個是我們該做的事情。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-15T16:13:54.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:14:39.553000+08:00","text":"不過我在這裡還是要強調，當然在這裡各個政黨基於不同的立場各自表述，我可以講自己政\n黨的立場，這個沒有問題，但是我還是希望，既然韓院長已經出面了，我想各個政黨還是儘可\n能在互相協調的情況之下，讓整個國家預算可以執行，也希望包括主計長在內的行政官員能夠\n依法行政，我想這個是我們大家共同的期待，希望今天大家能夠儘量圓滿，好不好？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:14:40.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:14:41.848000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:14:41.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:14:47.317000+08:00","text":"我們休息 10 分鐘，大家討論一下，休息完畢之後，牛煦庭委員如果有什麼意見\n，我們到時候再說好不好？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:14:47.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:14:49.220000+08:00","text":"因為第一階段都是黨團發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:14:49.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:14:50.061000+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:14:50.061000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T16:31:13.532000+08:00","text":"休息（16 時 14 分）\n繼續開會（16 時 31 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:31:13.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:31:28.018000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，也謝謝各位行政官員，我們經過溝通之後，目前達成兩項共識，我來宣\n讀一下，請各黨團幹部及各位行政列席官員大家仔細聆聽。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:32:01.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:32:31.656000+08:00","text":"各黨團同意針對 115 年度總預算案付委事宜，為求行政立法互動和諧，同意要點如下：\n(一)行政院應於 115 年度總預算案付委後半年內，提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例\n之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施，以展現回應立法保障軍公教權益之意旨。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:32:32.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:32:51.686000+08:00","text":"協 10\n(二)另針對總預算案完成審查前，立法院已通過之新興計畫動支案，行政院應予立刻先行執\n行，立法院於審議上開新興計畫時，同意如數照列，並免予凍結。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:32:51.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:32:53.047000+08:00","text":"請問這兩點，各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:32:56.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:32:58.540000+08:00","text":"如果沒有請簽署，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:32:58.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:33:04.505000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳清龍總召發言，牛煦庭委員請準備。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:33:04.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:33:05.346000+08:00","text":"我們先簽署，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:33:08.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:33:21.505000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長的用心，我們真的也感受到韓院長為了總預算案的用心，所以我們台灣民眾\n黨黨團也表達支持。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:33:22.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:34:01.916000+08:00","text":"在這裡我還是要鄭重地跟民進黨黨團表示，今天我們一直談的軍人待遇條\n例、警察人員人事條例，立法院三讀通過的案子，行政院視為是違憲，我還是要重申，預算案\n和法律案不同，預算案，立法院不得作為增加預算之決議；法律案，立法院本身就有提案之權\n。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:34:02.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:34:15.727000+08:00","text":"我在這邊舉一個簡單的例子，如果立法院不能提案增加預算，增加老農津貼的預算怎麼會由\n我們立法院來增加？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:34:17.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:34:22.775000+08:00","text":"另外，包括議員助理費的增加，也是由我們立法院來提案。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:34:23.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:34:50.876000+08:00","text":"所謂的違憲或\n不違憲，我們應該將法律案和預算案說明清楚，所以我們今天才會主張行政院應該針對立法院\n已經三讀通過的軍人待遇條例、警察人員人事條例予以執行。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-15T16:34:52.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:35:37.758000+08:00","text":"今天在韓院長主持協商之下，行政院也同意在半年內要提出相關保障軍公教的措施，來回應\n立法院，也回應台灣民眾黨立法保障軍公教權益的意旨，為了總預算能夠順利付委，為了能夠\n保障軍公教權益，所以我們也同意韓院長協商的結果，在這邊也要請民進黨黨團確定行政院能\n夠依我們的協商要點來執行。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:35:40.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:35:40.672000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳清龍總召。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:35:40.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:35:43.494000+08:00","text":"請牛煦庭委員發言，簡短扼要，謝謝。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:35:43.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:35:52.557000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，針對今天的協商結論，因為這個結果叫政治處理，所以本席不表示任何異\n議，我們當然就配合黨團的決議來處理，但我想幾個道理還是要講清楚。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:35:53.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:36:02.341000+08:00","text":"第一個，之所以這個\n預算僵局會產生，當然就是因為立法院三讀通過的法案沒有被合理執行，我想這違反了法治國\n的原則跟精神。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:36:03.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:36:18.752000+08:00","text":"行政院當然可以認為它有違憲之虞，但是即便你要送去釋憲之前，你也應該先\n執行再釋憲，我想這是法治國依法行政的基本原則，在場都沒有人可以直接認定行政院有資格\n來判斷因為是違憲而不執行，這個道理還是要說清楚，合先敘明。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:36:20.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:36:34.321000+08:00","text":"第二個，雖然今天是用政治處理的方式來解決這件事情，但是我也必須要講，立法院修正這\n麼多的法案，很多修正的法案就會影響國家政策，影響國家政策的時候，當然就會造成政府開\n支的改變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:36:34.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:36:48.270000+08:00","text":"如果按照今天民進黨黨團所主張的，凡是有政府開支增加的時候，都一定要有行政\n院版本作為基礎的話，我覺得那是變相閹割立法院提案的權力，我覺得這件事大家應該要嚴肅\n看待。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:36:48.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:00.581000+08:00","text":"我再說一次今天的協商結論叫政治處理，但不表示我們同意用這樣的精神未來去處理立\n法院的事務，我想這會立下一個不太好的範例，所以這件事情也是要講清楚。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:37:00.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:17.091000+08:00","text":"立法院有立法院\n提案的權力，提案三讀通過，當然因為這段時間朝小野大，沒有辦法有效溝通，要表決，很多\n東西很困難，但這不表示立法院應該自我閹割，我覺得這是各黨各派都應該要有的觀念。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T16:37:17.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:47.723000+08:00","text":"第三個，剛剛莊瑞雄幹事長在今天散播方法、散播愛，當然是很好的，但是我必須要講從過\n去的經驗，朝小野大是一個很重要、大家要務實考量的事情，今天大家的意見不一樣，但是國\n會在野黨是多數，未來大家就應該好好協商去達成共識，我覺得這當然是一個很好的方法，但\n協 11\n是如果不能達成共識，表決通過的也應該要尊重多數，我想這樣的精神還是要被標舉的，所以\n花一點點時間，我覺得總是要把道理說個明白，感謝主席給我時間，謝謝。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:37:47.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:47.943000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:37:49.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:57.907000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部、各位列席官員，我今天宣讀一下立法院黨團協商結論：","quality":1},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2026-04-15T16:37:57.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:37:59.347000+08:00","text":"115 年 4 月 15 日（星期三）下午 3 時 30 分","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:00.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:38:23.696000+08:00","text":"紅樓 302 會議室\n決定事項：\n一、各黨團同意定於 4 月 21 日（星期二）邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長列席報告「\n115 年度中央政府總預算案」編制經過並備質詢（含志願役軍人加薪及警消人員退休金等預算編\n制處理情形併予報告）。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:25.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:38:35.081000+08:00","text":"質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派 5 人、民進黨黨團推派 5 人、台灣民眾黨\n黨團推派 1 人進行，質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:35.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:38:46.284000+08:00","text":"名單請於 4 月 20 日（星期一）中午 12 點\n前送交議事處彙整；議案詢答完畢後即交審查，各黨團同意不提出復議。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:46.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:38:47.824000+08:00","text":"當次會議不處理臨時\n提案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:49.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:38:54.207000+08:00","text":"另台灣民眾黨黨團針對「115 年度中央政府總預算案」之復議案，予以撤回。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:38:55.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:39:07.272000+08:00","text":"二、請財政委員會於 4 月 16 日（星期四）下午 5 點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事\n處，俾提 4 月 17 日（星期五）院會報告。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:39:07.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:39:38.293000+08:00","text":"三、各黨團同意針對 115 年度總預算付委事宜，為求行政立法互動和諧，同意要點如下：\n(一)行政院應於 115 年度總預算案付委後半年內，提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例\n之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施，以展現回應立法保障軍公教權益之意旨。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:39:39.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:39:52.235000+08:00","text":"(二)另針對總預算案完成審查前，立法院已經通過之新興計畫動支案，行政院應予立刻先行\n執行，立法院於審議上開新興計畫時，同意如數照列，並免予凍結。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:39:52.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:39:53.936000+08:00","text":"請問各黨團幹部，有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:39:53.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:39:54.996000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有寶貴意見，麻煩請簽署，謝謝。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:39:54.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:40:09.704000+08:00","text":"我們開始進入第二案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:40:10.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:40:18.208000+08:00","text":"現在協商結論在簽字之中，我們要進行第二案，請幕僚跟行政官員就\n位，我們開始第二案協商。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:40:56.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:40:57.614000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長、謝謝各位列席官員，大家辛苦了！","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:40:57.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:41:55.440000+08:00","text":"不好意思，謝謝各位\n列席官員請坐，退席的官員也請加快速度，因為時間寶貴，謝謝。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:41:55.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:42:57.648000+08:00","text":"跟各位黨團幹部報告，今天列席的有國防部顧部長，歡迎；戰略規劃司黃司長，歡迎；法律\n司吳司長，歡迎；中山科學研究院李院長，歡迎您；採購室趙主任，歡迎；財政部國庫署陳署\n長，歡迎財政部；行政院蔡副主計長，歡迎您；經濟部產業發展署鄒副署長，歡迎；法務部廖\n參事，歡迎；審計部林副審計長，歡迎，林副審計長這麼年輕；數位部周副署長，歡迎，更年\n輕；衛福部鄭視察，謝謝；國家科學及技術委員會郭副處長，歡迎；行政院公共工程委員會謝\n處長，歡迎，謝謝各位。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:43:09.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:43:41.155000+08:00","text":"今天的黨團協商行政院函請審議「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」、台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」及國民黨黨團擬\n具「強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案」等 3 案，這 3 案經本院外交及國防、財政兩委會\n聯席併案審查完竣，並決議交由黨團協商。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:43:41.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:43:55.412000+08:00","text":"115 年 4 月 9 日（星期四）經過民進黨黨團陳冠廷召\n集委員主持協商，未能獲得共識在案，現在我們開始併案協商。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:43:55.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:43:59.215000+08:00","text":"保留協商的部分有，一、法律名稱。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:43:59.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:08.162000+08:00","text":"二、保留條文：(一)行政院提案第一條、第三條至第七\n協 12\n條；(二)台灣民眾黨團提第一條、第三條至第八條。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:08.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:11.565000+08:00","text":"(三)國民黨團提案第一條、第四條至第九\n條。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:11.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:13.326000+08:00","text":"三、附帶決議 1 項。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:13.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:28.855000+08:00","text":"請各位參閱會議桌上的議案關係文書及審查報告及條文對照表，與會\n黨團如果有修正動議或機關有建議內容，請提出書面資料，我們現場要印發。","quality":1},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:28.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:33.957000+08:00","text":"接下來我們依照條文對照表上保留的部分繼續進行協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:34.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:38.240000+08:00","text":"首先請陳冠廷召集委員簡短扼要的報告一下，謝謝。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:40.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:45.636000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，還有在野黨的委員們，大家午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:46.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:44:54.887000+08:00","text":"這一次的特別條例裡面，我們有共識的\n其實蠻少的，大概除了主管機關為國防部之外，再來就程序上面而已。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:44:56.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:45:20.776000+08:00","text":"我希望今天至少我們可\n以整理出一個方向，這一次整體來說就是軍購、商購跟委製，軍購上面，我們上一次在審理的\n時候，包含徐巧芯委員，應該牛委員也有談到，就是有一些文字你們會帶回黨團裡面討論，其\n中包含施行期間。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:45:20.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:45:40.655000+08:00","text":"施行期間其實我們跟民眾黨的部分都是提到到 122 年 12 月 31 日止，因為這\n是有辦法達到的，但是在國民黨的部分是到 117 年 12 月 31 日止，這個好像是在技術上面是比較\n沒有辦法達到的，所以這個部分，我們希望今天能夠就這個實質的問題來討論。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:45:40.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:45:56.224000+08:00","text":"第二個部分就\n是國防特別條例裡面的軍事採購的部分，軍事採購在國民黨第八條裡面是提出要主管機關得再\n行提出強化國防及對美軍事採購第二階段特別條例。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T16:45:56.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:46:39.471000+08:00","text":"我們的立場是希望不要分兩階段，這樣我\n怕會緩不濟急，而是直接在這一次的條例裡面就把它包括進來，我們是希望至少在這兩條……\n當然我們對於包含特別條例的名稱，還有對美採購以及對其他國家的採購等等，一開始是有一\n些討論，但是我認為比較重中之重、我們今天可能會有初步共識的，還是先從這兩條開始，之\n後我們就可以慢慢進入到商購，商購的部分，我們知道在野黨是希望把它變成年度預算，但我\n們是希望這次把它放到這個特別條例裡面，不過沒關係，我們是不是就先從軍購的部分開始來\n做討論？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:46:42.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:46:43.810000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳召集委員冠廷的寶貴發言。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:46:44.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:46:54.600000+08:00","text":"接下來，請三個黨團依序發言，個別委員、列席委員有意見的話，再請隨時表達意見，三個\n黨團發言完畢以後，我們請行政部門發言，都發言完畢之後，我們要開始進入審查。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:46:55.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:01.286000+08:00","text":"首先，我們請台灣民眾黨黨團提案的王安祥委員，您先發言好嗎？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:47:01.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:01.326000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T16:47:04.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:45.470000+08:00","text":"非常感謝冠廷召委，我們前幾個禮拜花了非常多的時間，我們花了兩天時間來討論這\n個事情，不過沒有錯，基本上，對於很多的內容，我們也同意可以先從軍購這邊來著手，那天\n大家協商完，我回黨部後，我們也做了一些商討，不過我們還是覺得需要國防部這邊給我們更\n多有利於我們做考慮的資料，也許有助於我們對一些比較明顯的項目可以有共識。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T16:47:47.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:53.779000+08:00","text":"今天當然希\n望我們能夠異中求同，能夠求得一些共同的結論。以上。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:47:55.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:55.361000+08:00","text":"謝謝王安祥副總召。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:47:56.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:47:57.204000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團發言，民進黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-15T16:48:01.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:48:36.419000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我想國民黨一向都非常支持國防，但是我們要支持的是必要的、可以買得\n到且能夠正當形成戰力的對美軍購，我們覺得嚴格把關、審查以及監督的職責是我們立法委員\n必要的責任，所以我們在乎的是採購一定要非常地公開透明，絕對不能急迫，而且制度不能失\n守，這就是國民黨對於這個特別預算、特別條例的最核心的立場。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-15T16:48:38.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:49:10.120000+08:00","text":"另外，國民黨黨團在那天審\n協 13\n查法案的時候，其實我們針對一些部分都表達了充分的意見，包括我們的 3,800 億加 N，就是希\n望能夠把未來可能對美軍購的部分，也就是美國會提供 LOA 的部分，我們先把這個部分預放進\n去，未來當美國一提供軍購的發價書，我們就可以馬上編列預算，也可以達到實際上的效果。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-15T16:49:10.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:49:41.453000+08:00","text":"所以在這邊，我想我們非常地支持國防，也希望今天能夠達到一個共識，大家能夠往怎麼樣\n嚴格把關，而且不會衍生到未來……因為針對軍購的部分，我們也擔心會不會有像是以前拉法\n葉案延伸的相關問題等等，所以針對這個部分，我們覺得應該是要把商購的部分放入一般的年\n度預算，比較不會有太大的疑慮，謝謝。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:49:43.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:49:43.713000+08:00","text":"謝謝許宇甄委員發言。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:49:43.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:49:45.334000+08:00","text":"接下來請莊瑞雄委員，請發言。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:49:46.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:49:49.295000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長還有所有的協商代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:49:50.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:50:01.358000+08:00","text":"其實整個軍購，大家講真話啦，不用在那邊說那些，\n如果要審軍購條例，你們真正的疑慮到底是什麼？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:50:02.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:50:13.682000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨剛剛說希望能夠提供更多的資料\n，聽起來，如果是第一天聽立法院說話都覺得很合理，你們這就是講到已經沒話講了，所以在\n亂講啊！","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:50:15.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:50:34.488000+08:00","text":"3 月 5 號才剛剛付委，我們這個軍購條例，本來你們是聯手連付委都不想讓它付委，不\n是不想審喔，是連付委你們都不要，你們現在說我要更多資料，其實如果是真的在審的時候，\n講道理我是覺得都還好啦。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:50:34.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:50:47.194000+08:00","text":"第一個，其實行政院總共才提出七個條文而已嘛，我覺得外交及國防委員會大家的程度都是\n有夠好，我就要稱讚一下陳冠廷委員，他是威斯康辛大學的碩士耶！","quality":0.569},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:50:53.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:50:57.528000+08:00","text":"日本東京大學回來的，不\n是開玩笑的，留學美國又留學日本的，這程度難道還會差嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:50:57.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:51:27.849000+08:00","text":"國民黨也不錯啊，民眾黨你們也\n不錯啊，但是你們心腸不好，你們就不想讓它過，你不用激動，七個條文，你們外交及國防委\n員會真的都沒讀書，連草案名稱你們都有辦法弄不出來，台灣民眾黨跟……總召你不要擋我，\n我看這個看得很生氣，你知道嗎？","quality":0.653},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T16:51:27.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:51:27.989000+08:00","text":"我先上廁所。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:51:28.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:51:29.611000+08:00","text":"只有條例的名稱就弄成這樣，大家開花，台灣民眾黨跟民進黨的差不多吧？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:51:29.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:51:31.092000+08:00","text":"看一看國\n民黨的，這個第一條，其實我看你們這個名稱其實要達到妥協、一致不困難啦，就是不想審嘛\n！","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:51:31.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:01.602000+08:00","text":"才會拖到 3 月的時候才要開始付委，是有過一條啦，主管機關叫國防部，你們這個會被小學\n生笑死啦，三黨都會被小學生笑死啦！","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:02.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:09.005000+08:00","text":"你看起來就知道這個就是不想審，所以當初連付委都不\n想付委，社會有沒有壓力？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:09.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:09.925000+08:00","text":"壓力來了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:10.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:19.128000+08:00","text":"就趕快審、審、審，就給它全部都保留這樣出去了，通\n過一個主管機關是國防部，不然軍購主管機關會是內政部？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:19.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:20.988000+08:00","text":"軍購主管機關會是教育部嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:21.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:22.089000+08:00","text":"這不\n可能的事情啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:23.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:29.501000+08:00","text":"就玩這一種，這個是對這個國家、對我們身為立法委員職責的不尊重啦！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:30.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:31.238000+08:00","text":"不尊\n重啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:32.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:51.374000+08:00","text":"本席就是這樣認為，剛剛國民黨跟台灣民眾黨講了很多理由，但那個都不是真正的理由\n，你說要更多資料，我說不對嘛，你連付委都不讓它付委，你前面都不會想到要資料，怎麼突\n然現在想要更多資料？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:51.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:52:52.535000+08:00","text":"這也不通啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:52:53.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:53:29.143000+08:00","text":"七個條文其實很快，剩六個條文而已，各黨都大膽的講出\n來，哪一些你不想要的，你說顧立雄這個國防部長，我看他很討厭，我想刪他 3,000 億，3,000\n億也可以，你也跟他講出哪一個部分，你是認為……你說 1.25 兆，你認為哪一些是不對的，我\n們講給社會大眾聽，說民進黨在執政，武器亂買，這個不應該買的你也買，哪一些你認為不應\n協 14\n該的，現在你卻不是這樣！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:53:31.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:53:37.508000+08:00","text":"開始就 3,500，就開始來看看能不能再加一點，可能軍購這樣來弄的\n話會比較難去說服。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:53:37.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:54:05.102000+08:00","text":"剛才說到台灣民眾黨，我現在也要說一下國民黨，你們主席去跟習近平會面完了，手也握了\n，也被你們擋那麼久了，當鄭麗文說要到中國去的時候，我當初就跟大家預測了，我就說鄭麗\n文從中國跟習近平見完面回來以後，連審都沒得審，我猜得很準啊！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:54:05.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:54:36.679000+08:00","text":"我以為已經握完手了，回\n來了，總要大家好好來審，3,500，差不多跟中國比較好的主張 3,500，在你們國民黨裡面，如果\n是八千多的，差不多住在中部的，住在比較中部的差不多主張八千多，如果對整個國家都覺得\n不錯、都要防護的，就像我們說 1.25 兆的，那三個有沒有道理？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:54:37.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:54:49.483000+08:00","text":"講清楚都可以有道理，但是我\n是說我們來做一個決定，前面都不是因為你沒有資料，不是因為你不了解，都不是！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:54:50.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:55:16.824000+08:00","text":"前面是因\n為你們聯手不想審，你們連讓它付委也都不讓它付委，是這個原因，這個大家還是要講清楚，\n但是身為執政黨的幹部，我們也認為要對外的採購，這都是很大筆的費用，確實不能浪費民脂\n民膏，要受到國會的監督，至少在國會裡面必須要透明，這都合理！","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:55:17.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:55:17.965000+08:00","text":"這個都合理啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:55:18.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:55:25.770000+08:00","text":"但問題就\n是當我們覺得這些合理的時候，那我們不要哪一些的時候，也要講得合理。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:55:27.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:55:58.254000+08:00","text":"好不容易總預算在\n院長剛剛的主持功力、調和鼎鼐下通過，軍購我覺得是重中之重，院長你去想，你很注重國會\n外交，你如果想帶大家去法國，我也跟你說要怎麼去法國，我去法國，我如果去之後，人家跟\n我說，為什麼臺灣軍購大家連審都不想審，你們就敢跑出來玩？","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:55:58.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:55:59.195000+08:00","text":"笑死人了，我們要去拜會，他\n們當作我們在玩、當作我們沒做事情。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:55:59.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:56:02.318000+08:00","text":"所以總預算案跟軍購，不是我們要把他們綁在一起，而\n是這個對國家很重要，外人這樣問的時候，不管是到法國還是到哪一個國家，人家這樣問我們\n國會議員的時候，院長，你不覺得我們講不出來很丟臉嗎？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:56:22.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:56:34.159000+08:00","text":"我們可以跟他說臺灣的政黨好爛，\n七個條文而已，名稱也搞不定，連主管機關該國防部都說這個還要討論，說很怕把主管機關規\n定到文化部去，不會嘛！","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:56:35.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:56:36.800000+08:00","text":"軍購條例一定要分兩次嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:56:36.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:56:38.280000+08:00","text":"說先給你 3,500 億，買完以後再給你 3,500 億。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:56:46.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:57:03.118000+08:00","text":"對於整個國家建軍\n防衛能力的提升，我看最有能力來做擘劃的就是我們的國防部，民主進步黨立法院黨團的能力\n跟國防部沒辦法比，我認為台灣民眾黨應該也不敢講全臺灣最懂國防怎麼樣提升戰力、部署哪\n一些武器的是台灣民眾黨，你們最內行，我相信你們也不敢講；至於中國國民黨，你們再來講\n這一些的話，我相信你們也會覺得汗顏啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:57:22.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:57:46.238000+08:00","text":"我是覺得一樣，國家其實是大家的，看這個今天可不可以……我們前面真的延宕太多了，而\n且前面延宕的理由都是不通，不是因為沒有資料，其實是因為大家彼此在政治上的攻防，這難\n免，可是因為我們延宕太久了，不要大家說要提升軍人待遇、要照顧軍人什麼的，結果連武器\n你們都……這是對整個國家安全的條例，你們連審都不審，這個可能對國會來講，我們就會變\n成失職了，以上。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:57:46.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:57:47.479000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員，你講話講到我們心情跟坐雲霄飛車一樣，上上下下、壓力很大。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T16:57:47.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:57:48.319000+08:00","text":"國防部顧部長請簡單扼要說明一下，我們要開始進入審查。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:58:14.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:58:16.440000+08:00","text":"院長及各位委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:58:16.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:58:43.727000+08:00","text":"我想關鍵在於我們現在要區隔出一個條例跟預算的不同，這個我還\n是一再的說明，現在的條例，就國防部的版本，剛剛已經講了，我們整個就是七個條文，以民\n協 15\n眾黨的版本來看，就是八個條文，國民黨的版本就是九個條文，所以條例跟預算不同。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:58:44.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T16:59:17.875000+08:00","text":"現在的\n關鍵就在於，一個是第四條，我們就是提出 7 個要建構的能力項目，這是我們的第四條，民眾\n黨也是第四條，國民黨團是第五條，民眾黨跟國民黨黨團都將特定的採購內容寫進去，事實上\n是將條例跟我們要採購的特定案項其實是混淆了。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T16:59:20.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:00:08.370000+08:00","text":"依照所有我們應該要訂的條例跟預算案的不同來看的話，那麼今天就是要看各朝野黨團對於\n第四條或者國民黨黨團的第五條，我們要採購的項目，行政院版所提出來的這個能力部分，有\n哪些能力是覺得並不適宜擺在這個能力部分，這樣才有討論的基礎，而不是去討論具體要採購\n的案項，因為具體要採購的案項是要等到我們再提出預算的時候，立法院就那個具體案項可以\n決議不通過，這樣我們就不能夠採購那個項目，這是第一點。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:00:08.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:00:23.160000+08:00","text":"第二點，另外金額的部分，這是一個最高的上限金額，不代表所有的預算案進來之後都可以\n獲得支持，因此可以達到這樣的一個金額。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:00:23.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:00:53.091000+08:00","text":"但是行政院的版本還是堅持，我們事實上在之前已\n經做過相關的專報，不管是機密的還是公開的，已經將我們 1 兆 2,500 億所需要的、籌購的每一\n個項目都做過報告，如果今天有一些委員表示他沒有聽過這樣的專報內容，我們願意再來進行\n專報，只是有一些涉及機敏的事項必須要用機密專報的方式來進行。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:00:54.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:05.401000+08:00","text":"所以像第四條的項目，也就是它能力的建構，搭配後面再放進來的預算書表，要不要同意？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:06.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:11.406000+08:00","text":"最後才會決定最後通過的金額是多少嘛，對不對？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:11.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:28.337000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天是在討論條例，就麻煩各位針\n對條例，我們現在的重點就在於剛剛講的第四條哪些能力的建構，大家覺得有什麼意見？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:28.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:35.180000+08:00","text":"如果\n沒有意見的話，我是覺得如果可以先就能力的部分，建構這七項能力沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:35.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:43.263000+08:00","text":"預算等到後續\n進來，之後大家可以再來詳審，我想國防部的……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:44.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:44.863000+08:00","text":"謝謝顧部長的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:45.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:01:48.684000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我們就開始進入第一條，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:01:48.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:02:01.482000+08:00","text":"我們就開始進入法律\n名稱，請各位黨團針對法律名稱，行政院所提案的「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別\n條例」有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:02:01.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:02:06.887000+08:00","text":"好，沒有意見，第一條法律名稱照行政院版本通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:02:07.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:02:10.951000+08:00","text":"牛煦庭，好，沒問題，有意見隨時……不要急，牛煦庭委員請表達意見。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:02:15.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:03:26.832000+08:00","text":"報告主席，我還原一下當初在外交及國防委員會大家討論的，今天在這個黨團協商的\n場合，大家可能是希望透過政治處理的方式加快相關程序，因為我想這件事情不只是只有金額\n的問題，也有速度的問題，大家都希望這東西可以趕快落版、趕快開始來做執行，今天其實講\n白了，這整包裡面大概就幾個爭點，大概就是名稱、就是金額，還有執行的期程，剛剛陳冠廷\n委員有做說明，其實我覺得可能要針對這幾項大家做一下討論，會比較容易達成共識，要不然\n這一條一條走，其實跟外交及國防委員會審查的時候一樣，因為像第一條以名稱為例，行政院\n就是說韌性很重要，所以要按照院版等等說法；台灣民眾黨講說保衛國家安全跟不對稱戰力就\n已經涵蓋所有了；而我們的主張一直是優先處理對美軍購，所以既然是對美軍購，我覺得也沒\n什麼好藏的，就把對美軍購寫進去，那一天光是這個名稱的條文，在外交及國防就搞一個多小\n時，然後結論還是沒有共識，今天也是一樣嘛，今天大底上方向，我們黨團的立場還是一樣，\n我覺得應該要針對對美軍購的方式先做處理，其他的不是不行，但是我覺得要從長討論。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:03:26.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:03:31.795000+08:00","text":"我順便藉這樣的發言時間舉幾個例子，很多時候不是說資料有沒有掉的問題，我話說從頭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:03:32.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:04:21.712000+08:00","text":"協 16\n這個案子按照第一波發價書倒推的時間，因為美國也有一些相關的行政流程，所以我們去做了\n一下請教，倒推其實在去年 6 月，後來我問了國防部，其實更早行政院就已經開始做研究跟規\n劃，這當然都沒有問題，但是如果大家都不認清楚現在國會的生態跟狀況，還有一個又一個朝\n野僵局的話，然後你不提早溝通、不提早處理，明明 6 月至少都有明確的目標開始往前走，你\n都不講，然後到 11 月的時候，你也不是先跟國內社會溝通，你跑去搞外媒投書，然後回過頭來\n要內宣轉情勒，要求在野黨一定要接受，當然就會造成僵局嘛，就已經很多僵局，你又多一個\n僵局，才會出現賴總統要不要來國會報告啊，所以它就卡在那個地方，其實耽誤了整體法案審\n查的問題，你就早一點溝通。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:04:22.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:04:24.895000+08:00","text":"再來，我講資料的提供，民眾黨講的真的沒有道理嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:04:24.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:04:44.695000+08:00","text":"前一段時間，外交及國防委員會在針\n對最近這段時間國防部的財務計畫的時候，我提的質詢很清楚，我說我們購買這麼多的軍備設\n備，現在軍備設備跟維護管養的支出比例大概是一比一左右，過去都是這個比例，我現在大幅\n增加軍購採購的量，維養的成本會不會跟著增加？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:04:45.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:04:54.041000+08:00","text":"換言之，我未來要增加的其只是這 1.25 兆的\n特別預算，它會不會對國家長線的財政造成一定的衝擊跟負擔，總要有數字吧！","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:04:54.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:04:58.004000+08:00","text":"所以我請他們\n做 8 年的財政規劃，但我到現在還沒收到資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:04:58.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:05:15.157000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得中間本來還有很多東西是可以被釐\n清的，我想今天如果大家還是只是表達立場，而沒有說我們今天暫時捐棄立場，各黨都講說我\n們在哪些地方願意讓步的時候，每一條、每一條大家都還是各執一詞，結論也還是沒有共識。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:05:15.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:05:21.267000+08:00","text":"綜上，我想針對名稱，因為顯然沒有任何交集，所以我們對名稱還是有堅持的。以上。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:05:30.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:06:00.302000+08:00","text":"應該這樣講，我剛剛唸大家對行政院版本的名稱有沒有意見的時候，大家要提反對意見，我\n們就開始進入討論；反過來，國民黨黨團如果提出希望名稱變成對美軍事採購特別條例，其他\n黨團有沒有意見也可以提出來，所以我並不是一定要直接這樣，好像一意孤行，這點我先澄清\n一下立場；第二個，剛剛已經有非常多綜合性的討論，我們就暫時降低情緒性發言，回歸到理\n性，拜託一下，因為我們時間有限，好不好？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:06:00.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:06:00.922000+08:00","text":"好，范雲委員請準備。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:06:04.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:06:36.992000+08:00","text":"我去過外交及國防委員會幾次，當然我想大家在每一條上討論更多，以我對這個部分的\n理解，對一般民眾來講，大家已經越來越了解這一次特別條例這個版本不是只有對美軍購，我\n在總質詢的時候也親自問部長，這是一個很重要的系統升級，因為要強化防衛韌性跟所謂不對\n稱戰力，因為臺灣小中國大，所以不對稱戰力很重要，它是系統升級，所以有一個臺灣之盾。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:06:38.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:06:55.945000+08:00","text":"剛剛顧部長一直問大家說，政院版第三條哪一項覺得不好可以討論，國民黨跟民眾黨都只有\n針對軍購要什麼海馬士等等寫得太具體，他說那個部分未來在預算提出的時候可以再討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:06:56.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:07:29.211000+08:00","text":"這\n是一個條例，所以我想軍購加上臺灣之盾，還有第三個，上次我提及經濟學人都有提到臺灣無\n人機的潛力，我們也看到我們無人機相關產業在這幾年發展得很快速，已經可以賣到捷克、波\n蘭跟美國，且經濟部提供的訊息，我們最近也跟 9 國簽了 MOU，所以它非常重要，是我們的不\n對稱戰力，而且是防衛韌性。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:07:30.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:07:44.041000+08:00","text":"如果臺灣沒有自產，在遇到一些緊急狀況的時候，就沒有防衛能\n力，這個部分，你們在委員會的時候說，為什麼不放在以後每年的預算中？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:07:46.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:08:11.254000+08:00","text":"對產業來講它必須\n是要穩定的，所以這 1.25 兆我們已經告訴大家，它是一個天花板的概念，剛剛牛煦庭委員擔心\n協 17\n財務衝擊，那個可以在每一年提出來的時候討論，現在我們講的是 1.25 兆，民進黨需要的事情\n是，它是一個系統升級，是不是能夠一次就把這個空間做出來？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:08:11.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:08:31.868000+08:00","text":"我也特別想要友善的再提醒大家，這不只是臺灣國防部提出來的需求，國防部也講過很多次\n，跟我們盟友有相關的討論，這也是對盟友宣示我們有自我防衛的決心，要強化它。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:08:35.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:08:55.299000+08:00","text":"我們最重\n要的朋友，美國參議院台灣連線共同主席說，1.25 兆是臺灣對自己自我防衛的重要投資，敦促\n各政黨以即時，即時就是要緊急，以團結而且前瞻的方式推進這項預算，那是台灣連線共同主\n席說的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:08:55.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:09:06.606000+08:00","text":"參議院軍委會主席更直接說，他對在野黨大幅削減國防預算感到失望，那是他講的，\n他可能不知道我們的進度在哪裡。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:09:06.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:09:24.900000+08:00","text":"還有參議員匡希恆最近說，我最顧慮的就是臺灣低估了中國\n的意圖，你們眼前明明已經有了香港這個先例，請不要再讓同樣的悲劇在臺灣重演，我們都希\n望和平，但請千萬不要天真。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:09:26.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:09:37.466000+08:00","text":"最了解臺灣的 AIT 處長谷立言說，美國能幫助朋友的程度，終究\n取決於他們願意為幫助自己付出多少努力。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:09:38.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:06.074000+08:00","text":"我們民進黨團要講的事情是，這 1.25 兆是天花板，它有三塊，如果依照國民黨跟民眾黨版本\n只剩軍購，那你們可不可以告訴我們，臺灣之盾系統的升級，能夠像以色列的鐵穹、美國的金\n穹一樣，讓大家覺得防護是更多重、更安全的，為什麼不好？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:06.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:18.440000+08:00","text":"系統升級就是一次性的努力，分\n好多年能夠做出來，還有非紅供應鏈無人機的產業，為什麼不值得支持？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:19.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:23.442000+08:00","text":"以上說明，希望能夠說服藍白兩黨支持不打折。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:23.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:23.943000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝范雲委員發言。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:27.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:34.165000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨團名稱這塊，國民黨團能不能接受台灣民眾黨黨團所\n提的這個名稱？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:34.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:50.749000+08:00","text":"如果可以的話，台灣民眾黨團的是「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購\n特別條例」，這個講起來應該是非常中庸，而且精確度也很夠。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:50.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:52.209000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨團你不堅持一下自\n己名稱嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T17:10:54.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:10:59.925000+08:00","text":"對啊，這在我們委員會討論的時候，其實大家看起來是比較支持我們台灣民眾黨版本\n的。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:00.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:04.486000+08:00","text":"國民黨團、民進黨團，我們支持台灣民眾黨黨團這個名稱，有意見嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:04.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:05.526000+08:00","text":"沒有意見嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:05.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:06.526000+08:00","text":"我想這\n在……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:06.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:12.768000+08:00","text":"我們其實在委員會的時候，是覺得台灣民眾黨的版本是可以囊括進來，我們那時候是\n沒有意見。OK。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:13.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:15.629000+08:00","text":"國民黨團，名稱能不能支持？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:15.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:17.050000+08:00","text":"我們現在起碼要進入名稱。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:17.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:17.690000+08:00","text":"請牛委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:17.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:26.055000+08:00","text":"我跟主席報告一下，因為名稱可能跟後續的一些條文都會掛鉤，如果後續實質條文的\n精神不被影響的話，我對名稱是沒有意見的，以上。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:26.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:32.719000+08:00","text":"那我們後面繼續探討條文的時候，我們到時候再小心注意一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:33.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:36.702000+08:00","text":"名稱，我們先通過台灣民眾黨團版本，大家有沒有意見？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:36.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:45.705000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見，謝謝，我們通過\n名稱，國防部沒有意見吧？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:45.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:52.228000+08:00","text":"國防部尊重大家的意見，如果支持台灣民眾黨黨團，國防部沒有意見。","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:52.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:11:58.991000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的名稱，OK，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:11:58.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:12:04.733000+08:00","text":"協 18\n我們現在進入行政院提案、民眾黨團黨提案、國民黨黨團提案的第一條有關立法目的的條文\n。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:12:08.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:12:14.317000+08:00","text":"各位委員請發言，要精要一點，請問針對第一條條文，大家有沒有寶貴的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:12:14.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:12:29.609000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:12:29.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:12:33.050000+08:00","text":"我就先針對第一條，我覺得大家要聚焦……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:12:34.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:04.773000+08:00","text":"我就直接講我們在國防外交討論的結論，因為其實差異最大的大概是兩個，一個是非\n紅供應鏈，還有一個是 T-Dome，就是我們的防空系統，因為這個直接連結到第四條，那個項目\n大家的意見是不同的，我們還是一樣堅持，第一個，T-Dome 防空系統的整合，對臺灣當然特別\n重要，你不能夠有各式各樣的防空系統，結果你不整合，就等於這個防空系統沒有意義。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:05.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:35.473000+08:00","text":"第二個，因為這一次打造所謂的非紅供應鏈，它的重點不但能夠扶植我們的國防自主，也能\n夠增加臺灣的工作機會，我相信不管是國民黨還是民眾黨，應該對於我們用特別條例這樣的方\n式，有國防自主又可以增加臺灣的工作機會，我想大家應該比較不會有意見，所以是不是可以\n把非紅供應鏈重新放回來？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:35.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:41.215000+08:00","text":"我覺得這應該是我們的重中之重，針對第一條發言到這邊，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:41.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:42.075000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋發言。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:42.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:43.436000+08:00","text":"牛煦庭委員，請準備。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:43.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:44.596000+08:00","text":"你要發言嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:44.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:13:46.677000+08:00","text":"你肯定還要發言，乾脆我就直接點名你好了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:13:46.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:14:01.544000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們第一條的寫法，當然就是跟著條文的名稱一起，既然是以對美採購為\n重點，而且優先處理的項目，在裡面把它寫明，我想是有必要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:14:02.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:14:19.698000+08:00","text":"在裡面怎麼樣，大家可以互\n相達成共識，這個我覺得可以再商量一下，但我覺得至少對美國政府及授權體系之軍事裝備及\n相關服務採購、建構防衛能力等等相關的語句，應該是要被保留的，我覺得大家看看能不能兼\n容而不偏廢，我覺得可以往這個方向思考一下，以上。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:14:24.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:14:30.780000+08:00","text":"我補充一下，雖然難免在這種場合，今天主席都已經希望大家少一點政治。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:14:32.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:04.888000+08:00","text":"另外，我們跟另\n外兩個黨的版本差異是，另外兩個黨直接寫了因應中共的情勢威脅，我們的版本是因應國際情\n勢，我覺得可以加個「因應國際情勢的變化」，因為我想中共的威脅包含在國際情勢的變化裡\n面，但是我覺得也沒有必要特別標舉這件事情，總體的變化就是有涵蓋的，並沒有漏掉，刻意\n不講我覺得很奇怪，所以我覺得如果大家可以在這個地方達成共識，用寬一點的方式來處理，\n我們都不抵觸這個條文的精神，也不會影響它的相關效果。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:06.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:12.333000+08:00","text":"剛剛名稱好像有一點點眉目，如果\n這個東西大家可以發揮一點智慧的話，我也覺得是有修正空間的，以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:14.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:21.354000+08:00","text":"現在問題變得有一點麻煩了，不過沒有關係，我們一步一步往前推進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:21.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:23.496000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨要不要發表發表意見？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:23.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:45.232000+08:00","text":"院長，非常感謝院長召開這個協商，不過，如果照這樣的方式的話，可能委員會的情\n況會再發生一次，因為大家其實都蠻堅持自己的版本，我覺得名稱可能還好，因為你真的到了\n深水區，到這些條文的內容上，可能大家都還是覺得自己的版本是比較好的，這樣協商是不是\n會有進展？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:46.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:49.693000+08:00","text":"再請院長多多的考慮一下，以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:15:53.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:15:58.796000+08:00","text":"您對於剛才牛煦庭委員所提那樣的意見，貴黨的意見是什麼？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:00.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:02.396000+08:00","text":"這要表明，不同意就不同意，\n保留就保留，同意就同意。協 19","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:04.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:08.440000+08:00","text":"我們覺得應該還是要使用台灣民眾黨版本？以上。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:12.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:12.727000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:13.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:23.730000+08:00","text":"我想今天大家都希望這條例能夠往前推進，所以才會在第一條的部分\n，我們也可以用台灣民眾黨的版本。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:25.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:50.725000+08:00","text":"我先講一下，其實行政院版本特別有提到國內廠商的採購\n，主要除了非紅供應鏈以外，我相信臺中市市長盧秀燕在接受媒體採訪的時候，她特別也提到\n她來自於臺中，身為臺中市市長，我們很多機工具的商購部分就在臺中，所以我們在推這個條\n例的時候，當然也是希望扶植臺灣在這相關產業上面。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:51.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:56.369000+08:00","text":"剛剛牛委員所特別提到的，是不是就不要寫中共，把國際情勢的部分放進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:56.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:16:56.749000+08:00","text":"我認為是不是\n要讓顧部長來回應一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:16:56.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:17:22.426000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得如果我們爭執在文字，這個部分其實是無助於就像剛剛王\n委員也講了，深水區是在等一下我們要討論的這幾個採購的方向，這都是比較屬於涵蓋性、概\n念性，因為我們現在討論是條例，院長也非常清楚我們接下來還有預算要進來，那個才是真正\n的重中之重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T17:17:22.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:17:48.272000+08:00","text":"所以，如果可以往前推進，我都同意在文字上可以做修正及揣摩的，我們都問一\n下國防部的意見，如果可以多增加，甚至於台灣民眾黨的版本裡可以多增加一些什麼樣的字句\n進去，我覺得大家目標應該都是一樣，就是條例儘速能夠把歧見化整成大家的共識，謝謝。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:17:48.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:17:50.013000+08:00","text":"謝謝林楚茵委員的發言。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:17:50.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:17:57.359000+08:00","text":"顧部長，請您用您非常清楚的頭腦，再一次說明您的想法，好不好\n？不敢。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:17:58.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:18:38.874000+08:00","text":"報告院長及各位委員，我想大家在委員會討論就已經說出這個最關鍵的是，國\n民黨堅持一定是要透過對美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備及相關服務採購，也就是他們只限\n於對美的軍事採購，但我們認為這個特別預算包括自製跟商購這部分的額度大概是三千餘億元\n，這個部分沒有辦法以年度預算來進行編列，我們希望是編列在這次特別預算，我想這跟第四\n條能力建構有很大的關聯，所以也因為這樣，就產生了連動性。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:18:41.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:18:45.616000+08:00","text":"這個要請各位委員能夠參酌，\n是不是大家的共識？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:18:45.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:18:50.858000+08:00","text":"我想文字是一個問題，但是不限於只是對美軍購的項目，就這一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:18:50.858000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:19:00+08:00","text":"現在整個就卡住了，請陳冠廷召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:19:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:19:07.870000+08:00","text":"我想請教在野黨，如果把你們的部分納入行政院提案的部分，有沒有辦法接受？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:19:08.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:19:09.132000+08:00","text":"就是\n把這個條文擴充。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:19:15.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:19:30.006000+08:00","text":"我覺得這就會變成我們在委員會討論的狀況，因為這就跟第四項等等掛勾，還是乾脆\n這次我們先討論一下金額跟有沒有共識的這段先處理，因為我覺得那些大的問題解決，這些細\n節上的東西處理速度就會很快，我覺得可能是這樣。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T17:19:30.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:19:43.035000+08:00","text":"要不然，我們每次都會討論細節的東西，\n因為跟後面掛鉤而無法處理，我們又花很多時間討論文字細節上，我覺得這樣也不太有效率，\n所以是不是要直接進到深水區，先做一次大體的討論，我覺得這是可以思考的，以上。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:19:53.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:20:05.869000+08:00","text":"我很快速地回應，我當然也同意我們可以先從金額來討論，不過因為討論到金額的時\n候，又會討論到底是對美軍購還是不是，就還是一樣，它其實還是會回到同樣的問題。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:20:06.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:20:17.153000+08:00","text":"但是剛\n剛冠廷委員提到能不能夠整合，比如在機密會議的時候，我們就會知道，因為現在是公開的沒\n協 20\n有辦法講，但是就會知道它不是只有跟美國有關嘛！","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:20:17.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:20:31.929000+08:00","text":"所以，是不是能夠在這一個……因為行政\n院的版本涵蓋很大，所以我剛才講，至少有兩件事情我們可以討論，一個是防空系統，一個是\n非紅供應鏈，因為這兩個顯然是在其他版本沒有被放進去的，所以這是第一個可以討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:20:33.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:20:48.078000+08:00","text":"第二個是要不要把國家寫進去，因為我還是要再度強調，我們今天提出這樣的條例是因為國\n防有需求，它有需求，要跟哪一國買，照理說，不是條例的重點才對。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:20:48.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:04.967000+08:00","text":"我們上一個最近通過的\n條例叫馬太鞍救災的條例，該條例裡面也不會講，因為我們要恢復光復鄉的農業，這個農業機\n具一定要跟日本的久保田買，所以到最後我們的條例就叫做對日採購條例，不會這個樣子啊！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:05.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:12.472000+08:00","text":"所以，照理說我方的需求就是要強化國防戰力，是不是美國，這個不會是這一個條例的重點。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:12.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:18.135000+08:00","text":"所以我們回歸這個問題的話，我們不需要在這邊強調美國，因為你跟誰都可以買嘛。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:18.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:20.216000+08:00","text":"那你的項\n目到底合不合格？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:20.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:32.805000+08:00","text":"比如說防空系統，大家有不滿意，又或者說今天非紅供應鏈大家有不滿意，\n就可以聚焦在這邊談，談了之後就可以確定，那到底我們的金額上限應該是多少。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:33.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:35.307000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:37.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:37.809000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員的發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:40.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:51.421000+08:00","text":"各位委員，這個我感覺是完完全全卡住，我想先休息 10 分鐘，大\n家掌握這個黃金 10 分鐘趕快溝通一下，好不好？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:51.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:57.448000+08:00","text":"溝通完畢，我們來下達一下初步的裁決，好不\n好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:57.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:21:58.695000+08:00","text":"休息 10 分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:21:58.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:28:15.753000+08:00","text":"休息（17 時 21 分）\n繼續開會（17 時 28 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:28:15.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:28:19.518000+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部，各位列席官員請坐，我們現在繼續開會，時間已經到五點半了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:28:20.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:28:27.731000+08:00","text":"我們接下來請外交及國防委員會召委陳冠廷委員發言，發言完畢之後，我即將做宣告，請陳\n委員，陳召委請。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:28:30.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:28:58.346000+08:00","text":"院長還有我們在野黨的同事們，其實在幾週前我們跟很多美國參議員跟眾議員的國會\n訪團都有見面過，當初的參議員訪團夏欣，在昨天特別再致信給我們所有與會的同仁，包含院\n長、副院長，還有牛委員跟王委員，我們都有收到這個信，他信裡面不斷地強調，對於商購我\n們自主能力的重視。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:28:59.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:29:10.589000+08:00","text":"我們當然知道今天的爭點還是軍購跟要不要加商購，我們理解，在野黨他們的立場是要把商\n購放在其他的部分，不是在這次的特別條例。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:29:11.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:29:31.224000+08:00","text":"我們希望等一下院長做完宣告之後，我們還是要\n請院長能夠發揮你的領導力，儘量的跟在野黨黨團的總召們好好的來溝通，一方面也是說服，\n因為我們都理解到商購對國防預算的重要性，它是我們自主的能力，我們真的必須要擁有它。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-15T17:29:31.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:29:50.649000+08:00","text":"所以，如果今天沒有結論的話，是不是在非協商的時間可以請院長跟我們幾位年輕的委員，\n能夠去跟貴黨的總召好好的討論一下，商購到底有沒有機會，可不可以儘量把它放進去，這個\n是我們很誠摯的呼籲。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:29:50.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:29:54.569000+08:00","text":"他現在還有一個總召叫陳清龍總召，他也一樣非常重要，好不好？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:29:54.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:29:57.270000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們作一個宣告……顧部長請。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:29:58.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:30:20.695000+08:00","text":"我有個提議，不知道大家覺得怎麼樣，就是說因為現在條例跟預算有點卡在一起，我\n是建議說，如果我們再排一個專報，那我們把每個專報……大家就有點提前審預算的概念，就\n協 21\n是說覺得這樣子的案……因為現在國民黨說一定要軍購嘛，對不對？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:30:20.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:30:47.259000+08:00","text":"我們會提出一些自製跟商\n購的項目，在委員會裡面我們做個專報，大家就可以提前了解這筆錢到底是用在什麼地方，那\n筆錢用在什麼地方，這樣子是不是有助於大家最後有一些……我們講說有一點預審這個預算的\n概念，然後最後大家有一個共識，這樣有沒有可能？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:30:47.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:30:59.812000+08:00","text":"那有一些當然最後堅持說，這個我一定要\n求要擺入年度預算，有一些不能擺入特別預算，最後當然還是要尊重大院的表決，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-15T17:31:00.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:31:10.860000+08:00","text":"這\n個時候也許國民黨跟民眾黨會比較更有全盤的了解，去了解這個條例搭配預算規劃的實際內容\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:31:11.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:31:14.644000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝顧部長的建議。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:31:14.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:31:27.993000+08:00","text":"我們下禮拜就兵分二路，一路就是陳召委這個地方，您就排，因為\n您是召委，下禮拜輪值，您可以排，這是一路；第二路，下禮拜我這邊來負責黨團協商，我們\n再一次來協商。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:31:28.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:31:52.372000+08:00","text":"在這裡我要誠懇的建議各黨團幹部，我們今天是針對軍購相關條文進行發言，我要特別拜託\n有兩個大項請大家一定要加強溝通，一個是採購項目，另外一個是經費，這兩個請大家一定要\n先行溝通，我會在下禮拜再一次來召開。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:31:52.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:32:02.940000+08:00","text":"今天因為中央政府總預算，把它卡住了，我們差不多\n四點多才開始討論，時間實在是有點不夠，所以下禮拜我可能會把時間稍微提早一點，讓大家\n有充分的時間。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:32:03.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:32:19.341000+08:00","text":"為了有效發揮會議的主要目的性跟宗旨，希望大家能夠先行溝通，也請陳冠廷召委下禮拜就\n排一個顧部長所提的那個部分，那時候大家儘量踴躍參加，不要說到時候又沒聽到，這樣就沒\n有意思了，好不好？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:32:19.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:32:29.604000+08:00","text":"國防部也釋出了善意，陳召委也排了，大家還是儘量踴躍參加，有問題可\n以在委員會那邊直接溝通。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:32:29.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:32:32.645000+08:00","text":"蔡總召，請。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:32:32.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:10.875000+08:00","text":"院長講這個部分，我補充一下，程序上，第一個，我剛剛已經請冠廷召委星期一就排\n，讓在野黨更加了解，就是說為什麼條例我們可以先過有商購的項目，但事先讓大家了解商購\n可能有哪些內容，這些內容如果大家覺得有一些其實是有必要，有一些可能貴黨還有意見，那\n至少有必要的，它已經有這個法源可以來進行商購，事先先讓大家了解商購的內容是什麼，或\n許這個是有助於大家的溝通。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:11.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:15.459000+08:00","text":"那星期一就排，所以院長，我們是不是星期四就再來召開朝野協\n商？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:16.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:21.063000+08:00","text":"這樣事先決定，讓大家在排行程的時候……禮拜四、下禮拜啦！","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:24.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:27.728000+08:00","text":"下禮拜一排專報，禮拜四\n我們就來協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:27.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:30.150000+08:00","text":"沒有，不一定是下禮拜四，說不定禮拜三就排了，就是禮拜四之前就排，好不好？","quality":0.484},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:30.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:30.971000+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:31.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:36.555000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，如果大家都可以，時間先定下來，大家比較好……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:36.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:39.398000+08:00","text":"不然等一下傅總召又說他有什麼事情。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:39.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:33:55.028000+08:00","text":"所以我就說兵分二路，就陳召委這個地方先下禮拜一排，我這邊朝野協商立刻就跟進來排，\n但是在排之前要拜託大家，針對項目跟經費問題還是溝通一下，這一點要特別拜託大家，好不\n好？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:33:55.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:01.192000+08:00","text":"今天非常謝謝各位黨團幹部大家一起來參與，也謝謝各部會首長列席，非常感謝大家。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:34:01.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:02.033000+08:00","text":"我們\n協 22\n就……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-15T17:34:02.033000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:06.416000+08:00","text":"院長，行程要定下來，三或四……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:34:06.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:07.276000+08:00","text":"你放心，我們私底下溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:34:11.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:15.746000+08:00","text":"好，我們會擇期再由我本人負責召集協商，現在散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T17:34:16.246000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T17:34:17.388857+08:00","text":"散會（17 時 34 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