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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1186.365,"end":1186.446,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1740.455,"end":1762.551,"text":"好 我們先來開會 首先進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長國家發展委員會主任委員及農業部部長就我國再生能源及電網韌性資發展現況建置進度榮耀目標推動困境、法國障礙及相關改善對策進行報告並被執行 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1763.581,"end":1779.598,"text":"好 謝謝本日議程本席排定我國再生能源及電網類型之發展現況建置進度容量目標推動困境法規障礙及相關改善對策我們進行報告並備諮詢好 首先請經濟部孔部長報告"},{"start":1790.104,"end":1814.138,"text":"主席以及各位委員先進 大家好那陳榮貴委員會邀請就我國再生能源及電網韌性的發展現況限制進度容量目標推動困境法規障礙及相關的改善對策進行報告並被質詢 敬請各位委員不吝指教首先在再生能源部分 在發展的目標上"},{"start":1815.118,"end":1832.35,"text":"我們希望太陽能光電短期的目標20GW的按源都已經掌握希望在2030年的目標可以累計達到31GW持續是以屋頂型發展作為優先地面以複合利用作為主軸"},{"start":1833.331,"end":1848.399,"text":"那第二是有關離岸風電希望在2030年的時候累計可以達到10.9個GW那其他還有水利發電希望在20年目標可以達到2140個MW那第二的部分希望在2030年達到200個MW"},{"start":1851.681,"end":1880.342,"text":"那有關於目前的建置的進度呢2026年2月底為止太陽光電已經達到1568個GW離岸風電已經達到了累積容量是3.68個GW其他水力還有地熱累積的裝置容量已經達到2136個MW那第二個有關於在挑戰跟改善對策的部分"},{"start":1881.605,"end":1907.006,"text":"太阳能光电我们希望透过屋顶型光电的扩大推动以及环平法规调整因应配合立法院修法太阳能光电开发设计的环平所公告的部分来依法行政第三个我们持续的推动跨部会的廉政平台的协作平台来强化监督跟资讯上的透明"},{"start":1908.103,"end":1921.904,"text":"那第二部分是有關於離岸風電的部分我們持續的盤點可用的海域面積希望在2050年的時候開發可以達到40或者到55個Gigawatt作為目標"},{"start":1923.519,"end":1935.71,"text":"第二個我們會強化融資的能量提高國家融資保證層數由6成變成8成同時也把私募股權基金的風險係數把它下降下來從10.18降到1.28"},{"start":1940.885,"end":1967.419,"text":"那在水利發電的部分呢那我們希望透過聯約署已經規劃小水利減碳旗艦的計畫從2026年到30年會透過擴大潛力場域的盤點強化深測程序以小水利攻對攻的模式來降低出席的行政成本那在第二的部分呢我們會加速進行全台灣"},{"start":1969.029,"end":1987.377,"text":"熱探勘以明確潛能並且探勘的資料公布以及提供低熱能發電示範的一些獎勵措施第二大項有關於電網韌性的部分呢那我們會持續的執行強化電網韌性的計畫那這個計畫是在2022年8月19號奉行政院核定總經費是5645.9億元那目前的進度呢也就是到2026年3月"},{"start":1998.862,"end":2003.066,"text":"3月為止呢本來預定的進度是38.88%那現在實際進度已經達到40.79%那我們會持續來執行跟進行"},{"start":2011.041,"end":2034.84,"text":"那未來推動的挑戰跟改善策略呢第一個我們在所有的變電所也好或電網的這個推動呢我們還是會持續的尋求地方代表的支持拜會地方首長民意代表還有這個意見領袖等等那第二個是與民眾建立良好的關係那透過這個"},{"start":2036.321,"end":2057.159,"text":"促進電力發展的營運協助金還有天天公司的變電所木林空間設置還有管理要點來促進木林那第三個就是化解民眾健康的疑慮安排民眾來參觀非管制區的變電設施等等的一些情況"},{"start":2058.925,"end":2081.67,"text":"最後結語是本部持續會推動二次能源轉型以確保我國能源安全產業發展還有淨零目標並行同時為了支撐再生能源並往以確保供電的穩定本部亦以分散化強固化或系統防衛核心全面強化的電網能力以上報告 敬請指教"},{"start":2085.267,"end":2090.435,"text":"好 謝謝進一步拱滾的報告接下來請國安會請詹副主委報告"},{"start":2102.174,"end":2123.703,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位委員會先進今天承蒙各位委員會就我國再生能源及電網韌性進行報告本會就相關業管部分向各位委員說明 敬請不吝指教我國能源94%是仰賴進口所以必須提高自主能源的比例因此政府致力推動再生能源"},{"start":2124.443,"end":2138.823,"text":"那國發會是政策的跨部會平台那也會盡力協助各部會來推動有關再生能源發展及強化電網韌性的工作那我國再生能源2025年的裝置容量是22.8"},{"start":2141.247,"end":2155.926,"text":"7GW那發電是大概378.141度約佔當年度的發電量13%那相關的再生能源的發展的現況剛剛工部長已經做過說明那我簡要的再說明一下"},{"start":2156.727,"end":2183.973,"text":"那有關太陽光電的部分那目前是裝置容量已經到了15.7GW那政府主要是透過屋頂型光電的發展規範一定規模的新建築屋頂必須設置光電來加強推動那地面型的部分是以複合使用為原則那為了兼顧環保與社會的支持那經濟部跟農業部都已經制定了明確的規範來嚴格的把關"},{"start":2186.494,"end":2206.408,"text":"那在離岸風電的部分目前是依照先示範次潛力後區塊的三個階段策略來推動那現在已經完成區塊開發的第一期跟第二期的作業那為了順利協助業者那經濟部也定期會召開相關的追蹤的會議來提供協助"},{"start":2207.543,"end":2232.241,"text":"在水力發電的部分政府主要是優先推動對環境影響比較小的小水力的發電那地熱的部分為了擴大地熱資源的使用那政府已經訂定有關於地熱探勘跟開發許可的相關的規範那同時也有獎勵示範的辦法來協助跟鼓勵民間業者來投入地熱的開發"},{"start":2234.656,"end":2250.05,"text":"那我國自2024年開始推動二次能源的轉型那除了剛剛提到的有關太陽光電、離岸風電跟低熱以外也積極的佈局生殖能、消水力、海洋能等多元的綠能逐步朝向2030年再生能源占比30%來邁進"},{"start":2252.873,"end":2272.906,"text":"那國發會也會持續透過計畫審議跟跨部會的協調合作來協助各機關來推動再生能源發展跟強化電網的韌性那這幾年來我們也審議了很多有關相關的計畫包含有關離岸風電包含有關地熱這個專警以及示範計畫包含有關這個電網的韌性建設智慧電網以及變電所的改進等等"},{"start":2279.81,"end":2307.552,"text":"那也補充一下那我們也會透過國家融資保證機制來協助這個再生能源業者來發展那最後由於政府對再生能源發展非常的重視也持續推動強化電網韌性的基礎建設而且也廣為部件有關於智慧電表深度節能加速布局儲能等等重要的措施敬請各位委員鼎力支持以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2310.916,"end":2312.038,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好"},{"start":2327.808,"end":2350.451,"text":"今天大院經濟委員會排定了針對我國再生能源電網韌性之發展現況建置進度容量目標推動困境法規障礙及相關改善對策進行報告那以下僅就本部針對農業綠能永續發展推動的一個請請向各位委員做一個說明"},{"start":2351.552,"end":2373.046,"text":"農業部為了確保農業在糧食生產的基本功能同時配合國家再生能源的政策我們明定了農業綠能發展設置的一個規範以農業為本、綠能加值為主軸在確保農民的權利的前提之下我們優先推動農業設施屋頂型的一個太陽光電"},{"start":2373.846,"end":2393.996,"text":"那這些屋頂型的太陽光電包括了情緒設、容量處置的設施溫室、孤設以及室內的水產養殖設施等在逐步推動到地面型的餘電共生那在115年根據我們的統計到目前為止有4.05G的太陽光電已經併網了"},{"start":2395.177,"end":2408.861,"text":"那其中還有在施工的還有在申請中的如果加計經濟部列管的農地變更的這些案場那整個綠能推動的一個一個績效大概已經達到了8.7GW"},{"start":2410.942,"end":2440.502,"text":"那為了引導光電有序的一個發展那農業部其實跟經濟部密切的合作在農地變更為設置太陽能土地我們建置了一套土地適宜性的一個快篩表那同時針對土地的區域適宜性進行了一個篩選那在農業施政投入資源的區域裡面特別是在環境敏感區特定農業區是一定不能變更為光電使用的一個農地"},{"start":2441.103,"end":2445.257,"text":"那其他的地區則是根據相關的規定來做一個審查"},{"start":2446.618,"end":2475.293,"text":"那同時我們也根據相關的跨部位的一個討論跟協調我們盤點各類建築屋頂的光電的一個可行性同時也更鼓勵整個群敘社屋頂設置光電的一個系統我們也發布了相關的這個群敘社附屬光電設置的一個指引然後同時溫室的一個指引那也提供相關的流程以簡化相關設置業者在設置的時候的一個困擾"},{"start":2476.013,"end":2501.35,"text":"那為了協助地方政府做後續的容許的一個審查跟案場的一個查核那農業部也明定了漁電共生案場規劃哪一些樣態是顯不合理的哪些樣態是顯不適當的這些樣態那這些樣態我們也提供了地方政府讓地方政府能夠了解到哪一些是"},{"start":2502.29,"end":2518.561,"text":"是不適合的的一個樣態那同樣的我們在這些樣態也持續的滾動的一個檢討那以減少地方政府審查做法的不一的一個情形那最近我們在114年最近的一次是114年7月24號我們也"},{"start":2522.223,"end":2538.412,"text":"針對漁電工生案場養殖的茶荷我們也提出了一個他茶荷的一個參考指引那提供政府地方政府在辦理漁電工生案場茶荷的事實的時候的一個使用那過往其實部分的光電案場的規劃都是以光電業者為主導"},{"start":2540.393,"end":2560.921,"text":"那同時以發電量最大化的一個思維去做設計那這樣的一個設計導致案場常常難以符合養殖的食物需求而有養殖不佳或無法養殖的一個情況那為了食物推動餘電共生那我們規劃由在地的養殖團體與光電業者合作"},{"start":2561.681,"end":2587.596,"text":"在光電的設計的時候就導入了漁民的一個想法來確保在暗場規劃的時候不會養殖到養殖作業那這樣的方式我想我們持續在跟業者在做溝通那另一方面我們也鼓勵我們農民或是農企業自行來申請綠能的附屬那我們也提供了百億的農業綠能一個貸款的一個專案那到目前為止貸款的專案已經"},{"start":2588.836,"end":2617.307,"text":"達到了96.34億那我想跟各位委員報告其實農地跟農業其實我們農業部肩負了一個我們國人糧食安全的一個需求重任那我們也要配合相關的再生能源的發展的一個前提之下農業部一定會守護我們好的農地做好相關的一個指引來達到真正的所謂的以農為本光電綠能價值的一個目標 謝謝"},{"start":2621.874,"end":2642.165,"text":"好 謝謝委員部陳部長的報告有關本市會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱我們並刊登公報 現在我們進行詢答委員諮詢前原理做以下的宣告 每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘 必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘 上午10點整截止發言登記 首先第一位請陳庭銘委員諮詢"},{"start":2650.549,"end":2654.071,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請經濟部長請經濟部 國務部長蔣委員早安謝謝部長我想我們現在在整個電纜地下化台南市的部分過去可能大家都不會想到說台南整個電纜是那麼的脆弱所以"},{"start":2678.422,"end":2702.554,"text":"他變成這一次丹納斯已經很清楚了我們沒有重點把他做一個強韌的動作是不行的所以我們從115年到116年我們整個電纜地下化的辦理路段有安南區 南化 關廟 將軍 仁德 善化 七谷 北門 雪甲 鹽水"},{"start":2703.547,"end":2709.312,"text":"那麼在這個部分我們要了解的是那117年後呢117年後呢117年還是會持續編所謂持續的重點在哪裡因為目前我們要了解是預算會怎麼編預計怎麼編我們這個是有特別預算啊好那沒有特別預算呢"},{"start":2728.452,"end":2733.46,"text":"就會用年度的公務預算來編好 那年度的公務預算我們要怎麼編"},{"start":2735.474,"end":2763.106,"text":"跟委員報告台電的年度預算大概都是持續在編列尤其像配電的預算以前一年大概200多億現在已經編到400多億整個全台灣大概有這樣的一個量所以我們整體的投資在這方面確實是持續在增加好 那持續在增加那麼多人在分那你的重點會在哪裡"},{"start":2764.555,"end":2790.16,"text":"每個縣市都在爭取啊可是重點還是以當時候丹納斯受損最嚴重的地區為優先 像這一次我們的特別預算很清楚嘛 是因為丹納斯的特別預算嘛所以他有重點大概整個區塊在台南所分的比例會比較高一點點可是在你們的本預算之後呢我們會分到多少"},{"start":2792.591,"end":2821.09,"text":"這個部分當然就是回歸到正常的這個預算的原則部長這就是我要問的重點啊你回到整個常態化之後大家都在分這筆預算那我們到底什麼時候才能把我們的電纜地下化台南這一次因為丹納斯其實當時候整個倒了之後我們緊急搶修我們謝謝台電的員工台電的同仁"},{"start":2821.75,"end":2837.098,"text":"真的是不分日夜然後全國調動可是那是因為我們遇到了緊急狀況那也因為這個緊急狀況我們有特別預算那如果在117年之後沒有了"},{"start":2838.123,"end":2852.591,"text":"我們到底要找誰來求助我們當時候對台電是他緊急恢復可是他的強韌度不夠如果再遇一次 我跟你講黑路比較長所以這個部分怎麼辦跟委員報告"},{"start":2855.011,"end":2878.431,"text":"配電級的這個電網的強韌不是只有地下化其實還有架空線路的一些強韌的計畫包括我要在一級電感一級電感跟我們目前的西級電感的那個抗風能力其實就拉了一個很高的我絕對相信我們韌性我們的強化有很多方式但是沒有預算是做不了的"},{"start":2879.071,"end":2887.733,"text":"所以我要問的是117年度以後如果沒有特別預算那請問我們台南還可以分多少"},{"start":2889.171,"end":2912.065,"text":"我們會被關注多少跟委員報告就是剛剛講的那一部分的強韌我們會透過剛剛年度的預算去強韌包括像剛剛講一級電感的強化還有就是架空線路的支線的強化等等來讓颱風來的時候可以減少這災害的發生所以我們台南還是會被擺為重點因為我們當然是受害太嚴重了"},{"start":2914.005,"end":2940.514,"text":"我們還會擺為重點嗎 我只是問這一句話未來可能不是我在這裡監督這個預算是回到地方政府當中我們在期待因為那個位階角度不一樣我在這裡我可以用立委的身份來跟您請教未來的預算可是如果回到地方政府我們只是期待我們的"},{"start":2942.449,"end":2965.487,"text":"台電、經濟部可以把眼光多關注我們一點因為我們等於跟各縣市在分這些預算那是不一樣的所以我在這裡要特別拜託在117年後沒有特別預算之後不要忘了台南我們受害非常嚴重在丹納斯的受害極為嚴重"},{"start":2967.472,"end":2991.26,"text":"是跟委員報告因為我們已經認知到現在的新型態的在氣候變遷之後新型態的颱風很多的機率都會是從南部直接透過台南海峽上來所以在台南高雄以及嘉義等等的這些沿海地區的電網的強韌會是在未來這幾年台電重點中的重點"},{"start":2992.42,"end":3000.307,"text":"這句話很重要 拜託 因為每個人在分啊 每個人在搶啊我們很擔心到時候我們又被忘了不會不會喔 來 那我再問一下說我們現在因為工程很多 我們的人力不足我們到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":3013.578,"end":3032.859,"text":"好跟委員報告現在就是因為少子化的關係所以台電在自己的這個人力的部分我們增加了施工班的人力就是新招考的人力所以這個台電自由人力也增加現場的施作人力這是第一點第二個承攬商的部分那也是面臨少子化的問題"},{"start":3034.474,"end":3052.046,"text":"國內招工也不容易所以我們鼓勵承攬商在移工的部分也增加禁用人力所以在整個契約的規定方面放寬讓他們有辦法根據政府的規定多引進移工那這部分的成效目前看起來都不錯"},{"start":3053.167,"end":3078.826,"text":"已經大概增加一千名左右的這個外籍移工所以我們現在人力的部分有慢慢在補足是最重要你工程那麼多人力不足還是一樣沒用啊所以這個拜託我們台電一定要注意第三個部分就是說在我們南科園區還有沙崙這個是牽扯到南科一二三再加上南科四好我們的電網韌性呢"},{"start":3081.461,"end":3110.136,"text":"這個部分確實正在規劃一部分的工程在進行然後也有一部分已經正在進行中包括從興達我們會拉新的4條線路到南科這邊來就是強化這邊的就是電網直供讓這邊的電可以更充足所以在整體的電源供應部分是沒有問題的那沙倫呢沙倫我們現在主要重症都在這裡包括AI包括機器人"},{"start":3111.584,"end":3133.947,"text":"我們院長跟總統剛去接過派好這個部分我們也南科市未來要在沙崙這個電力也就是電網的韌性跟他的一個強度我們已經有做規劃了嗎是就是從清達拉到沙崙再拉到南科所以等於是沙崙會增加一個超高壓變電所我們再拜託把這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":3135.775,"end":3148.418,"text":"讓我們辦公室知道齁然後再來就是說另外這個很重要的就是說各工業區現在都要求要去做太陽能光電可是虧線不足怎麼辦你叫他做你沒有虧線電引不出去啊那怎麼辦"},{"start":3156.35,"end":3176.821,"text":"這個部分我們有積極在處理就是說如果有等待病亡的這種案件多的地方我們就會增加一些匱限來吸納這些太陽光電就以新籍工業區為例我們已經增加了兩條匱限那今年年底會把那55件的這個工程太陽光電病亡的工程給消化下去"},{"start":3177.361,"end":3190.957,"text":"拜託 因為你叫人家裝設 結果你沒有虧線 那是白搭的根本就不用講啊你沒有虧線 那些都沒有辦法做所以這個要加速好 拜託 謝謝謝謝沈庭輝委員部長先回座下位質詢請鄭振賢委員"},{"start":3209.246,"end":3214.86,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下經濟部公民新聞部長還有我們台電王耀廷總經理"},{"start":3219.444,"end":3246.862,"text":"部長早部長早現在主席今天特別安排了一個我國再生能源還有電網韌性的一個專報那確實這個能源問題確實是非常關鍵因為現在能源問題不只是一個價格上面的問題它真的是國安問題所以台灣又是一個獨立的島嶼所以我在想說能源問題確實是非常的重要那2022年303大停電之後行政院曾經提出一個5645億元"},{"start":3249.083,"end":3269.754,"text":"十年期強化電網韌性的一個計畫那麼希望目標就在分散大規模停電的風險要提升事故隔離還有負電能力那其中裡面有一個電廠職工園區的一個計畫就是希望能夠有五大電廠來搭配七大園區包括通宵電廠來職工竹科台中電廠來"},{"start":3270.774,"end":3274.238,"text":"我今天要特別針對這五大電廠對應七大園區的進度目前情況如何?可不可以請部長或總經理做個回答"},{"start":3291.704,"end":3300.396,"text":"好跟委員報告通宵電廠職工整體進度整體進度已經到38.88預定了那實際上已經達到40.79好通宵電廠這個部分好"},{"start":3308.566,"end":3310.168,"text":"現在是目標是38.88現在是40點多少"},{"start":3328.671,"end":3339.862,"text":"40.79那個跟我們看到的一個數字其實有一點落差啦那這個東西我待會再講因為為什麼會這樣子是因為我想特別知道因為通宵電廠這個部分"},{"start":3341.343,"end":3358.681,"text":"直接通竹科的一個部分那麼它裡面包括了一個發電機組的一個重做第四五號在機組的拆掉就要重做還有一個那個書系海管工程這兩個部分要同時走那你這邊特別提到說這個進度的部分因為我們看到那個"},{"start":3360.797,"end":3366.52,"text":"所有的公開的資料當中的時候就是它的工程進度預計是40.54然後具體也是到40.54"},{"start":3373.393,"end":3398.815,"text":"那麼在這個部分當中的時候我看到因為你們的進度其實是零差異啦所以我覺得你剛剛報告的數字跟我們手上拿到的書面資料是不太一樣的所以我覺得這個部分剛剛的是整體五六四五億的整體進度OK那您現在提的通宵電廠的部分通宵電廠裡面是分成好幾個好幾個表演在進行包括"},{"start":3399.515,"end":3414.191,"text":"土建工程還有排卵工程還有就是輸電工程要從通宵電廠要把電輸送到寶山園區這個區域那每一個階段的好那這個部分因為我看到你們上面的數字的時候進度跟那個實際狀況都是40.54就是零差異這個"},{"start":3417.695,"end":3434.482,"text":"坦白說不太符合我們一般的常識那所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續去追究那我希望是能夠如期如質沒有問題因為我也希望它是非常清楚的可是我為什麼特別提到這個部分是因為我們看到了整個離岸風電的資料的時候你們提供出來的狀態"},{"start":3435.922,"end":3455.75,"text":"離岸風電資料當中的時候呢今天的一個經濟委員會報告上面提到說我們目前整個離岸風電的裝置容量是3.68GW可是其實在3月27號經濟部新聞稿當中就講到我們的那個離岸風電的容量發電容量已經到4.5GW當中有了0."},{"start":3462.233,"end":3476.411,"text":"0.82GW的一個差距我不知道這差距是在哪裡為什麼會有這個差距因為書面報告是2月底那個是3月發的因為3月還有一些病亡"},{"start":3477.052,"end":3497.396,"text":"所以我說因為今天已經四月多了我知道就是說因為已經四月多了然後我們今天提供出來是二月份的資料然後三月份的記者會資料提供更先進然後當中有0.82我不知道這差距是在哪裡就是短短不到一個月就有0.82GW的一個差距那這差距到哪裡可不可以請部長做一個簡單的說明請說明一下"},{"start":3503.259,"end":3527.271,"text":"那個後面他有的很多都是結構基本上風機都做好了他最後只是做併網所以他那個後面動作會比較快一個月就可以多0.82GW他一般他施工季都很短因為台灣海峽的施工季比較短所以說施工期很短所以你們覺得這個進度都沒有問題因為你們提出來2030年目標的時候是要到"},{"start":3532.736,"end":3548.793,"text":"10.9GW所以到目前為止還差6.4GW所以說你剛剛的回答其實我覺得很不科學因為一個月能夠多0.82GW的時候然後竟然總經理跟部長也都好像覺得很合理跟委員報告 現在是這樣子"},{"start":3549.594,"end":3574.938,"text":"就是一部風機的那個建制啊是從基礎打基礎 理解然後再到那個行駕 理解 理解 理解然後再拉線那其實是計算量是從整個那個線拉好以後才算嘛那很多都是在前面去年就已經做好基礎的工作包括風機的那個裝飾 線路的裝飾只是還沒有併上去而已那現在因為是所以這一個月就併了0.82GW就對了意思是這樣子"},{"start":3579.259,"end":3599.704,"text":"你倒是給本席一個很清楚的書面資料另外針對2030年到的時候我們還差6.4Ghz我們要如何把這部分滿足起來就是這個部分給本席一個很清楚的資料那我再講說所有跟綠能有關的一個部分的時候其實我們就不得不講到潰線的一個問題"},{"start":3601.084,"end":3622.497,"text":"那講到潰線的問題的時候之前我們就看到小英男孩出現了一些相關的一些問題那我們都不希望碰到這個狀態可是我要特別請部長這邊是不是可以要求台電就是能夠公開全台灣各潰線的剩餘容量因為這個東西目前查不到"},{"start":3623.357,"end":3648.508,"text":"網路上是查不到的那很多想要投資綠能相關的產業業者當中的時候他們就會碰到一些問題所以才會出現所謂的一個綠能科技產業推動中心的前副執行長能夠有這樣上下其手的空間就是因為資訊的不夠透明所以我們希望台電能夠公開全台各匱限的一個剩餘容量是不是可以做得到"},{"start":3650.117,"end":3665.454,"text":"報告委員這個是本來就是公開資料OK那也許在是在網上上有啦但可能比較難找比較難找那可不可以把它拉到一個比較前面的一個容易找到的一個部分因為如果很容易找到公開資料的時候根本不會有所謂小英男孩因為潰線去"},{"start":3667.419,"end":3683.264,"text":"產生了一個相關的一些弊端我覺得這個部分是不是請台電這邊把這個公開資料拉到最顯眼的一個地方讓有想要做投資的人的時候能夠很輕易找到不會發生這樣的一個弊端好不好"},{"start":3683.664,"end":3702.218,"text":"那最後一個部分就講到有關於那個電纜地下化的部分的時候也請給我一下新竹市這邊相關的一個部分還有一個寶山超高壓就是便便所的一個施工進度好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝曾志健前委員來部長先回座好 下一位諮詢請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":3722.782,"end":3738.924,"text":"主席 再讓我沿線接近列喆總統官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請國民新部長以及民運署的吳署長和台灣中油 台灣電力的兩位方董跟王總中油公司的方董 然後台電公司的王總經理"},{"start":3740.913,"end":3757.775,"text":"總委員早部長好 署長好 董總好企業自發電補強電網LAST MILE燃料電池新解方人帶法規配套來 先請教一下龔部長請問台灣會發生停電或限電主要原因是供電量不足還是電網不均衡"},{"start":3758.235,"end":3775.155,"text":"主要是電網的問題沒有錯我們現在看集中式的大電網的脆弱性在2021年發生了台積電南科那時候的次長曾文森現在是台電董事長他說這不是缺電不是這是什麼這什麼問題是所謂的惡龍一中部長知道什麼惡龍一中嗎"},{"start":3776.7,"end":3791.555,"text":"北部的龍潭南部的龍崎還有中部的中寮這三個地方如果一發生斷點就是單點故障那麼大電網就差不多要崩潰是不是這樣部長是所以電網的韌性其實遠比發電裝置的擴充來的重要往下看"},{"start":3792.176,"end":3806.374,"text":"所以目前我們剛剛看到的能源轉型2.0電網的東西很重要包括我們要積極的強化我們的自主發電包括光電風電跟開發未來的低熱供電節能 用電管理要盡量節能但中間有一個氫能跟儲能請問部長認為氫能跟儲能跟電網的任性有關係嗎"},{"start":3810.263,"end":3825.632,"text":"有嗎?分散式因為我們台一定要降低電網集中的風險所以要提高設備的穩定性所以氫能跟儲能是個選項來我們看一下半導體液的核心產生痛點你聽過所謂的被動防疫四分鐘的幻覺嗎?"},{"start":3827.077,"end":3841.933,"text":"我簡單講一下 目前的電廠啊 包括TSMC等他們很怕怎樣 第一怕電力中斷 第二怕電壓不穩所以呢他有一個什麼動態UPS的極限他可以撐四分鐘 一旦發生電壓不穩 他馬上就接手"},{"start":3842.634,"end":3862.975,"text":"但是當外部電網供電的品質量有問題的時候它只能撐四分鐘所以它自己有一個什麼備援的電力譬如說柴油發電馬上就啟動了可是柴油發電有它的極限啊24小時48小時如果沒有辦法在這個時間內恢復外電的供應那麼晶圓廠它的停機會損失數十億部長很了解嘛"},{"start":3863.736,"end":3878.094,"text":"好 那往下看所以呢如果供電趕不上擴廠那麼政府是不是應該鼓勵耗電產業自備發電目前台灣的工業用電占我們台灣的55%台積電要規劃這些先進的製程有哪些鼓勵措施鼓勵這些耗電產業自發電呢"},{"start":3880.461,"end":3899.708,"text":"8號委員剛剛您講的那個表後的那個除能電那有一些補助包括您剛才提到的那個Fuelsale的那個部分燃料電池的補助我們現在有一些方案正在補助所以沒有錯您提到了低碳電力燃料電池SOFC它可能是個備援的解方"},{"start":3900.208,"end":3926.059,"text":"譬如說它當企業至於有這樣的燃料電池的時候電網正常的時候它會持續穩定輸出低碳的基載電力萬一外電的電網中斷了它馬上就可以接手成為主要電力對不對這樣的概念嘛往下看所以呢FOFC它的主要的跟儲能傳統的儲能ESS基本上傳統的儲能它還要有符合建築法請您雜項執照但是呢燃料電池大概都符合了"},{"start":3927,"end":3947.702,"text":"用地限制它可以在室內可以在戶外但是燃料電池ESS就是儲能它會有什麼它能量密度高有消防上的風險另外供應上傳統的儲能它要頻繁的充電而這個燃料電池可以無限硬供應大概是有這個好處部長都很清楚嗎是所以這種情況我們往下看"},{"start":3948.363,"end":3959.411,"text":"所以美國的企業要承諾自備電力那麼燃料電池台灣中國是不是已經投入了方董你們是不是有跟雲暴能採用美國燃料電池廠Bloom Energy來進行這樣的廠有沒有"},{"start":3962.575,"end":3981.994,"text":"是的有那你們目的是什麼目的就是做一個我們示範驗證SOFC在我們的場域它使用的一個情況是部長是不是台電台灣綜合這樣做就是一個BYOPBring your own power帶上自己的電很像川普的口吻嘛企業你要用電要帶上自己的電部長我們在國內會推廣這個嗎"},{"start":3983.816,"end":3993.548,"text":"會 事實上國內有些廠商已經開始用比如說新興電子它現在就有用那你也看到這個Blue Energy現在事實上是非常"},{"start":3994.762,"end":4019.993,"text":"夯啊,你跟他訂啊,排隊可能要排兩年啊,還排不上啊中油算運氣不好,運氣很好了對不對,我們年底快完成了嘛布洛內基他有跟我們洽商啦,就是說有一些技術他也願意移轉給我們很好,因為台灣是製造的大國,對不對所以如果未來我們可以跟布洛內基合作,他有技術,我們有很好的生產的能力我們結合甚至可以成為對外輸出,有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":4020.593,"end":4046.967,"text":"對 我們正在有跟他洽商有在洽商的齁但是 縱使台灣有這樣的製造能力可以讓燃料電池變成企業自發電的解方但是仍然有一些限制往下看譬如說台達電早已布局這個蔡總啊 台達電他說什麼他們這個事業部他說買得到晶片 不見得買得到電所以台達電也跟英國的其他廠合作年底呢就要正式的樣產是不是這樣子這個市場規模相當龐大嘛"},{"start":4048.26,"end":4068.986,"text":"所以看好對不對經濟部是不是要看好是有有好但是看好不能坐著等我最後的三點訴求請看經濟部是不是要自訂獎勵措施鼓勵大型企業自備電力減少對公共電網的依賴有沒有已經訂了已經訂了一個月內把詳細的報告給本席一份好嗎就是他在施作過程當中我們有補助然後在這個就是"},{"start":4070.186,"end":4093.431,"text":"這個電費上的差異也有稍微補助所以你們有完整的這些獎勵措施就承諾剛剛前面的委員提到的要讓資訊充分的通暢至少在前期呢讓他就是用台電的電跟他用這樣的發電他一開喉啦他同時用外部電網台電的電跟他自己燃料電因為燃料電很貴啊"},{"start":4095.471,"end":4110.117,"text":"你以為人家ES是隨便賣你的它很貴所以呢一定要平衡使用很好那這個一個月內是不是你們可以整理出一個你們既有的獎勵措施的配套給本席可以可以好第二個請經濟部模仿美國的用電用電戶的保護承諾還有法規範"},{"start":4113.538,"end":4136.503,"text":"法規的規範來讓我們的產業園區要預留自發自用的電力用地有沒有因為前不久我們召委主席才排過我們相關的這些工業園區就是產業園區它目前的用地的配置有沒有這樣的規劃我們現在還是用獎勵的方式我希望你們未來在這樣的一個未來產業園區預留企業自發自用的電力用地好嗎"},{"start":4139.537,"end":4155.136,"text":"不能全部都只用台電的電 不能只是預留變電所而已好 先獎勵啦 到這個時候才比較嚴格的最後一個 請能源署評估電業法因為目前電 企業啊 他有兩個做法他要是自發自用 OK要不呢 他發了電可以賣給台電 對不對"},{"start":4156.677,"end":4171.699,"text":"但是他一旦跟台電簽了約他賣給台電的電他要回來自己用中間有一個很複雜的程序他沒有辦法說現在我自發的電我賣給台電我現在電不夠了我要自己用這個切換是有受到法規的限制的署長是不是這樣子"},{"start":4173.451,"end":4201.861,"text":"委員說的應該是說他可能因為我們現在賣的電的話他賣出去給台電也有一個一定的限制在電源法下面這個部分我們也在檢討當中好 部長瞭解是不是請一個月內將這樣的一個為了企業自發自用它受到電法的限制的這些可能的障礙盤點出來 可以嗎可以好 謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝鍾國斌委員 部長先回座好我們下一位質疑人請謝玉鳳委員"},{"start":4210.182,"end":4226.702,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請工部長 請經濟部工部長等一下啊謝委員早安工部長早安等一下我請他處理一下這個"},{"start":4238.493,"end":4267.427,"text":"總部長找,能不能找台電跟中郵台電總經理王總經理跟中郵方董事長你那天有給川普打電話是不是?沒有停戰了是不是?要停戰了嗎?確定16號會和談,會不會停戰?我們密切觀察,但是這個訊息萬變訊息萬變沒有辦法那麼把握,但是我們會準備該我們準備好的事情"},{"start":4268.45,"end":4280.836,"text":"對 我就是要問你們該準備的有沒有準備我們的法定天然氣法定石油以及法定的煤的用量現在是多少"},{"start":4282.056,"end":4310.388,"text":"天然氣的部分大概是11天以上嘛那是法定的對 那你們現在的存量有多少我要知道現在超過這個數字超過這個數字是多少12天嘛那個 那個誰對 董事長是目前的存量12天以上是幾天12天以上因為它每一天有上上下下我知道法定是12天嘛法定是11天11天 那是安全你們現在目前的存量是幾天"},{"start":4311.516,"end":4338.202,"text":"就差不多12天那石油呢石油大概法定是90天現在是140幾天現在是140幾天那煤煤的話是原生30天現在都超過接近4040天左右是不是所以即便有什麼狀況就是核彈沒有成功我們還是可以安然度過幾天"},{"start":4339.645,"end":4356.132,"text":"對我們因為一直都在調度所以這個剛剛提到天然氣的那個天數都沒有減少所以打仗已經打一個月了但是我們有用掉的不斷的進來所以那個都會維持住那個備用的這個"},{"start":4357.529,"end":4378.515,"text":"所以未來如果即便核彈不成的時候我們的天然氣、石油以及煤的存量用於發電或者用於民生以及工業的都是足夠的,是不是這樣?對,我們現在持續在調度當中所以現在,一定要做到啊"},{"start":4382.976,"end":4409.197,"text":"是不是對 因為它是法定的我們一定要做到好還有我想要請問因為今天講的是這個再生能源那我們知道現在有很多的風場他們有融資的困難有可能併網會延宕那如果開發商因為財務的因素放棄開發那是否你們經濟部有遞補的這個機制呢"},{"start":4413.374,"end":4426.348,"text":"目前他如果放棄的話那個封鎖就空下來我們會移到下一次選商的時候再進行招商就是下一次選商的時候再進行招商那你怎麼樣確定2030年10.9G的這個目標不會跳票呢"},{"start":4433.823,"end":4450.945,"text":"所以我們事實上在3.3的選商的機制也做了一些改變強化這個他實際的經驗還有他的財務的能力的比重分數把它加強了所以就是說比較可以確保不會發生您剛才提到的這樣的一些問題"},{"start":4452.747,"end":4469.961,"text":"還有現在我們剛才就在提到的就是分散電網的這樣子的方式因為過去的電網有很多就是說過去是人口密集區跟現在的人口密集區以及現在的工業區的用電可能區域的規劃都不一樣了"},{"start":4474.605,"end":4482.673,"text":"目前如果為了電網的韌性那我們目前的5645億的這樣計畫是否能夠足夠來支撐這樣子的分散電網的建制"},{"start":4490.894,"end":4514.938,"text":"跟委員報告5645億是在大概兩年前那時候提出來的一個數字嘛那一個電網的建設絕對不是說一個時間點定下來之後就固定是那個數字而是每年都在滾動檢討有因應特殊的需求出來而增加比如說像最近的那個在半導體業這麼夯的狀況之下他們的用電申請增加那麼我們就會因應"},{"start":4515.738,"end":4544.069,"text":"在不同地區的這些用電特別再增加一些線路出來類似像這個或者再生能源在某些地區因為開放所以導致必須要增加一些線路那麼我們也會在這方面就增加線路所以如果就像你說的半導體AI的需求增加的時候那當分母增加了那是不是我們相關的再生能源的比例就要提高了那這樣子的目標你們有沒有辦法達到"},{"start":4546.726,"end":4547.933,"text":"目标定定我想是那个"},{"start":4549.495,"end":4578.132,"text":"報委員就是就像您講的這個是目標我們是盡量希望可以達成但是分母跟分子基本上都一直在變化所以我們是就是還是既然是目標我們還是盡力啦對啊那總不能夠我現在也是問到一個就是大家關心的核心喔就是我們對於這樣子屋頂型的光電或者是漁電工程的光電也好"},{"start":4578.712,"end":4592.948,"text":"那因為你知道我們台灣的土地的問題嗎那我們跟鄰近的就是說民宅跟其他的就是說農田等等的那相隔的距離是多少那會不會有"},{"start":4595.51,"end":4608.676,"text":"讓周邊的民眾覺得不舒服那如果為了要達成這個分子那是不是要做怎麼樣子的擴大那台灣所有的土地有沒有辦法足夠讓"},{"start":4610.317,"end":4628.777,"text":"這些光電設施設施以及現在光電已經進行了很久了一個很長的時間了那光電板的回收呢有沒有辦法達到永續過去幾次在風災在天災的時候都有光電板的耗損"},{"start":4630.038,"end":4656.598,"text":"那藉由這樣子的一個過程裡面我們有沒有一個比較好的光電回收的光電板回收的機制能夠讓環境不會受到相關的傷害那以及未來怎麼樣提高光電的發電的效率你如果不能增加面積還是你是在發電的效率裡面去增加呢這是不是能夠"},{"start":4657.398,"end":4673.584,"text":"你們是不是能說一下方向上就是這樣那剛剛提到的就是說方向上是這樣那換我來做好了不是 環境三法有環保有三法已經改變了嘛那我們當然按照那個怎麼樣跟環境相容這個我們盡量來處理那屋頂型爭議比較少我們就來加強"},{"start":4677.566,"end":4702.721,"text":"那您剛才提到的部分就是說同樣的面積之下它現在的轉換效率是提高的技術上來做一些突破從過去的可能只有可能只有百分之十幾而已那現在已經慢慢到二十幾將來可能到三十所以它等於是同樣的面積之下它的發電量可以提高發電的效率嗎可是問題是現在我們現在配合就是說您剛才提到的"},{"start":4703.661,"end":4726.015,"text":"他原來可能可以發電的時間是15年20年他可能現在已經15年10幾年了我們鼓勵他太舊換新這樣的話他也可以回收他的舊的回收那你們回收的相關的流程以及機制有沒有做好有序的有沒有做好有序的這樣子的相關的那個所以你們會"},{"start":4729.097,"end":4757.335,"text":"希望說業者把既定的光電型的這樣太陽能板換掉然後提高這個效率嗎是是是那但是你要提供什麼樣子的誘因給他們啊因為設立已經設立了嘛那怎麼樣子給他們誘因那不然他本來就是按照他的回收機制這樣子的這個設計下來那你怎麼樣子讓他能夠去汰換舊的換上高效率的那怎麼樣做呢"},{"start":4758.135,"end":4784.304,"text":"比如說來講 它原來是可以發電20年嘛那它現在15年了那15年來講 那個5年就是我們汰換以後它效率提高了 但是我們還是保障它這個5年過去的這個等收價格那額外的部分呢 它就是可以額外獲得所以對它來講是非常好的一個方式好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝分委員來 部長先回座"},{"start":4786.069,"end":4800.038,"text":"好 我們的下一位執行委員 請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請部長跟台電台電王總經理"},{"start":4808.573,"end":4809.154,"text":"現在有這樣的規劃為什麼呢"},{"start":4829.819,"end":4856.093,"text":"因為為了增加因為戰爭的關係增加韌性因為戰爭的關係增加韌性但是政府告訴我們我們的供氣無疑於啊沒有問題啊而且很穩定而且很穩定報告委員如果我們五月份假如麥寮這個燃煤機組啟動的話我們會其他的燃煤機組降下來所以它這個量不會增加其他的機組會降"},{"start":4857.954,"end":4872.281,"text":"那你其他的機組為什麼還要來啟動你已經停用的藍莓機組為什麼這個是預備嘛這個叫做預備接下來要請問政府告訴我們台電告訴我們說"},{"start":4875.422,"end":4898.208,"text":"它運轉 恢復運轉三個月但是強調全年的用煤量不會超過去年 是不是是王總經理也點頭 是不會超過去年你要不要承諾是承諾王總經理要不要承諾 部長承諾 王總經理要不要承諾"},{"start":4899.94,"end":4919.452,"text":"要不要承諾 承諾好 部長承諾 部長也承諾 王總經理也承諾 那請問戰爭什麼時候會停止 你三個月後 戰爭如果沒有停止你要不要再承諾 確定不會再開展已停用的藍莓機組"},{"start":4921.048,"end":4937.771,"text":"跟委員報告請告訴社會大眾對 台電會增加賣料的燃煤機組目的是要增加韌性當天然氣船如果稍微不順一點那麼我們在天然氣船進來不順那個那一所以本集再請教"},{"start":4938.932,"end":4961.362,"text":"再請教 針對你昨天自己說的嘛你給我承諾不會超過去年因為它停用 你當然不會超過接下來本席要請問因為戰爭的因素 所以你要備用你要備用 但是本席要請教你所謂的備用 這個大家就有質疑因為你告訴我們你的用氣沒問題"},{"start":4962.623,"end":4991.386,"text":"部長又告訴我們 藍莓機組啟動三個月停用的再啟動歸入三個月你說會降其他的電降哪一種電降哪一種電降哪裡的藍莓電降台中來 王總經理請回答這就是本席要請問你的在中東戰爭沒有辦法你可以確定它三個月後會停嗎"},{"start":4992.822,"end":5003.27,"text":"我們當然希望會停 如果萬一他不可控的因子戰爭持續的時候本席就要請問 請問會不會再重開停用的藍莓機組"},{"start":5009.918,"end":5028.713,"text":"原則上因為不知道戰爭會發展到什麼狀況如果以目前的狀況持續沒有惡化到很嚴重的狀況之下那當然我們增加這個脈療基礎事實上就是增加彈性目的就是說萬一天然氣船進來稍微針對本席的提問戰爭不可控"},{"start":5032.276,"end":5039.802,"text":"如果萬一它持續你會不會繼續再重開啟停用的燃煤機組會不會請告訴我 請告訴我王總經理你最內行的你告訴民眾要講真的內容啊"},{"start":5050.135,"end":5061.238,"text":"這個這一題這一題這一題應該全世界怎麼做全世界的各國包括德國你講到全世界你講我國好不好因為是你掌控的對他們也在開燃煤機組他們也在開所以我可以這麼解讀嗎當然戰爭可以停止你就這三個月但是戰爭不可控的因素的時候你還是會繼續開可以這麼解讀嗎"},{"start":5078.33,"end":5100.136,"text":"應該是說有沒有惡化如果情境是不停的還是戰爭的樣態你會不會繼續開會不會總經理我只能說目前的情境看起來狀況沒有那麼嚴重所以會維持現在這樣狀況三個月就是賣掉三個月如果戰爭繼續呢你會不會繼續開"},{"start":5104.358,"end":5120.825,"text":"會不會 你告訴我會不會就好啦因為戰爭的狀況是有嚴重中等不嚴重幾種可能的情境那我們現在不知道會的針對你台電的佈局我的台電的佈局因為你一定有多方的佈局請教如果繼續你現在就要給我開這個停開這三個月啦那如果戰爭繼續請教台電公司會不會繼續"},{"start":5135.198,"end":5157.148,"text":"我只能這樣說台電今天最重要工作就是穩定供電我的任務一定要達成穩定供電為優先那要達成穩定供電的狀況之下全民跟全世界怎麼因應我們就照全世界的方式在因應全世界怎麼因應就是其他的其他人員就要調度該調度就調度該調度就調度所以南美還是會繼續開"},{"start":5159.188,"end":5170.679,"text":"我現在不能跟你說如果嚴重惡化到非常急劇的狀況我不敢說會怎麼樣但是以目前的情境是沒有那麼惡劣的狀況我們是樂觀的"},{"start":5174.875,"end":5199.212,"text":"部長在這裡喔也就是因為你告訴我們說不會超過去年你自己打自己的嘴巴因為戰爭若持續不可控的因素剛剛王總經理已經講很清楚也就是戰爭的情況如果持續有可能我們還是要調度電力繼續開所以接下來本席要請問你能不能承諾中火不會加開"},{"start":5203.673,"end":5209.164,"text":"請教目前規劃是這樣而且他還會降目前規劃是這樣子請總經理說明"},{"start":5213.001,"end":5242.327,"text":"你的目前是多長以目前的情境就是說戰爭的狀況的情境我們是中火絕對不會超過去年的量一千萬萬噸不會超過以目前的情境目前的情境本集再請教戰爭我們是不可控我們希望peace希望要和平但是不是我方可以任意去追進的所以我們還是要看全球的樣態但是我們一定要為以從某請教"},{"start":5243.581,"end":5271.661,"text":"如果戰爭繼續的時候 中火會不會加開請教中火 所以剛剛前提是目前的情境這樣子的話請針對本期的提問目前的情境是不會加開目前是不會 戰爭持續會不會加開戰爭如果持續 而且它的情況目前這樣子的一個狀況不是惡化到非常非常的嚴重我們中火是不會加開"},{"start":5273.004,"end":5302.022,"text":"不是大會上惡化的情況是不會加開你幫我繞了一大圈啊你幫我繞了一大圈啊台電最大的任務就是穩定供電這部長你這一句穩定供電這是全民必須要做這是政府的責任但是本席要具體要求中火付出了那麼多人民的健康我們的空氣好不容易我們一直努力的在降這個藍莓大家一起合作好好把它做好"},{"start":5302.944,"end":5317.424,"text":"所以你要承諾不要加開你可以承諾嗎他是目前情境是OK的繞了一大圈我們沒有得到真正你們所說的答案因為本期要具體的建議"},{"start":5318.547,"end":5342.921,"text":"如果缺氣我們就燒煤如果缺電我們就重開這幾個字是一直老路在繞所以我具體建議我們必須要做一個整體的一個規劃特別已經付出的中火應當要考量要照顧我們中部地區人民的空氣跟健康這是基本的"},{"start":5344.579,"end":5364.696,"text":"所以為了優先順序穩定供電的條件之下當然以天然氣還有其他的再生能源作為主軸就是因為您告訴我們天然氣供應無虞天然氣既然供應無虞為什麼要繞這樣的圈子為什麼要重啟一號跟三號的賣了停用的三個月因為以現在的狀態下的話應該是OK的啦"},{"start":5367.919,"end":5393.641,"text":"但是您剛剛又提到說未來戰爭怎麼變化那個我們可能要看那個後續的這個變化就您說的未來戰爭怎麼樣這是政府的職責要去應對每天所變化的樣態這是非常的重要所以本期還是具體建議中國已經付出了那麼多中國地區的空氣人民的健康應該還我們一個公道謝謝"},{"start":5394.682,"end":5421.197,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊瑜委員 請部長先回座好 下一位質詢請鄭天才委員好 主席有請經濟部副總管部長"},{"start":5429.97,"end":5451.127,"text":"部長好今天談這個再生能源電網論信是這個我們就談這個陸域的風電陸域的風電目前都在西部了這個都在西部我是希望繼續在西部那現在目前東部沒有這個"},{"start":5455.737,"end":5478.986,"text":"有相關的公司也希望在東海岸設置這個陸翼的風力發電如果設成這樣的話整個東海岸台東尤其是台東目前的規劃都在台東東海岸東海岸這個為什麼說美麗的寶島"},{"start":5484.652,"end":5509.258,"text":"這個美麗的寶島就是因為東海岸過去這個從早期這個歐洲歐美歐洲歐洲來到經過台灣看這個台灣就是從這個太平洋看這個東海岸美麗的寶島是這樣來的所以一直維繫著這樣的一個美麗的寶島如果這樣的這個陸域"},{"start":5516.323,"end":5538.593,"text":"風電在這裡設如果這些椰子樹都變成風電你想想看這個我們的美麗的寶島就不是稱為美麗的寶島名稱就要改了所以這個部分這個要請經濟部、能源署還有台電不要讓這些業者"},{"start":5544.022,"end":5568.854,"text":"花了老半天的时间又不能做为什么不能做呢人民都反对啊不只是原住民反对一般的花东的甚至那个屏东恒春那一带的海岸也都很漂亮他们也反对这个就是要维持这个美丽的宝岛"},{"start":5570.867,"end":5597.291,"text":"這個這麼漂亮的海岸如果全部都變成這個陸翼風電那真的是會會很慘而且你要把電還要從這個東部用到西部也不划算所以這個部分而且而且要主動跟這個業者他們想要提出的時候要告訴他們"},{"start":5598.769,"end":5619.64,"text":"還要依原住民族基本法要經過部落諮商同意所以難度更高不要讓他們浪費這些時間跟成本這樣的一個這麼漂亮的一個海岸部長你的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":5620.974,"end":5643.731,"text":"只要是涉及敏感地區或者是當地的政府或者是居民如果不同意的話我們就不會去支持這個其實一開始不要讓他們我剛剛有講前提不要讓他們浪費時間浪費成本然後還要去那邊結果後來都不行對不對而且從各方面來看先從美麗的寶島來看"},{"start":5647.885,"end":5652.773,"text":"然後跟部落諮商同意來看都不可行啊"},{"start":5658.645,"end":5684.317,"text":"請說因為他主動去溝通但是溝通這個程序不需要我們同意我們只是告訴他如果涉及敏感地區而且當地政府或者是民眾沒有支持的話我們是不會同意的我們會跟他說明白當然我只是提醒說這個前置作業讓他知道免得這個他要辦很多的"},{"start":5686.572,"end":5706.079,"text":"這個有辦了但是辦了一場就沒了就沒辦法大家都反對但是他們還想繼續像屏東也有這樣的一個狀況屏東這個恆春那一帶這個非常漂亮的一個地方好這個請那個經濟部的回奏請農業部農業部陳部長部長部長好"},{"start":5715.15,"end":5736.926,"text":"這個談一個老案子在111年9月18號這個所謂的0918大地震造成義理鎮地區的重大的災情除了自來水各方面然後水這個農業部的部分這個大部分你們做了"},{"start":5738.804,"end":5759.072,"text":"這個都已經復建的狀況大部分都做了 水土保持這個部分一些些農業部跟水土保持署大部分都做了就是還有一小部分還有一小部分還沒有 當初認為因為認為是應該沒有什麼問題但是民眾"},{"start":5766.718,"end":5780.372,"text":"民眾的有幾戶人家就是在邊坡裡面旁邊旁邊啊他們就住住得非常不安心我曾經在去年的7月22號"},{"start":5782.888,"end":5803.248,"text":"好幾個議題 其中一個議題就是去會刊這個易理政 松普理 2020邊坡滑漏改善 就第三個這個第三個議題 我曾經去會刊這個我們也曾經 這個我辦公室也曾經今年1月14號發文"},{"start":5807.981,"end":5824.851,"text":"那水保署花蓮分署在1月20號今年1月20號答覆說這個相關的土地統一書那現在花蓮土地統一書也都送去了所以這個部分這個我的了解是這樣那個分署長署長署長"},{"start":5826.485,"end":5843.697,"text":"署長,你們再跟同仁講一下,我現在轉述你們的同仁是說他們後來請祭司去看,認為沒什麼問題但是去看,到底看的對不對,是不是那個位置,他們自己去看"},{"start":5845.338,"end":5873.428,"text":"也沒有跟我們的住戶聯絡也沒有跟地方我的助理他們也沒有聯絡就認為認為是安全無疑啊有很大的落差啦所以請這個署長再跟花蓮分署那邊再再去跟我們的鄉親去實際了解好不好好好謝謝謝謝政經事務委員部長先回座"},{"start":5875.325,"end":5877.46,"text":"好 下位質詢 請洪玉祥委員"},{"start":5901.089,"end":5922.97,"text":"好 主席好 我們有請經濟部跟國發會經濟部 孔部長 國發會 張副主委各位早早我想這個根據你們的一個報告跟我們查的一些的資料那"},{"start":5924.52,"end":5933.934,"text":"我是覺得說現在的話從過去的歷史我們105年開始這些太陽光電一直到111個2050的淨零排放的這樣的一個路徑"},{"start":5937.915,"end":5954.045,"text":"那其實當時人都說這個發電這個光電是20GW再生能源的比例要佔20%可是都一路一路跳票然後到115年台電能源署的最新統計的話光電是15.47GW整個再生的話是22.87那基本上實際大概13.1%的一個占比"},{"start":5963.311,"end":5972.255,"text":"所以其實離我們你自己往下調從20%調到15%的再生能源債比到現在13.1%然後你現在我看到你們的報告國發會這邊2030年的目標47.222032 50.99我就覺得這個就是一個無限輪迴剛剛前面一些委員也問了啊目標定了啊再來答不到怎麼辦"},{"start":5990.604,"end":6015.581,"text":"報委員 這個比例是不是一個好的目標事實上我們要來檢討因為它分子跟分母都一直在變它分母現在都是國發會寫的國發會寫2030年再生能源再比30%所以我們現在的目標都是再生能源它的裝置容量多少我們就盡力給它達到比如說它裝置容量要達到比如說離岸風電要達到10.9個GWh那我們盡量把它做到"},{"start":6016.26,"end":6031.54,"text":"沒關係啦 我只是說我沒有什麼信心啦所以我就務實一點啦那因為我看到國發會寫20%就大不了了 然後2030那你也很擔心別人死2030那個不知道你在哪裡啊所以我國發會寫的那個東西可能要跟經濟部再好好"},{"start":6032.361,"end":6045.982,"text":"對不對行政院這邊或經濟部我們這邊再檢討一下不然我們民眾是沒什麼信心然後我記得我們在核二核三重啟的質詢的時候也說過因為如果這個核電重啟最快現在是多久預計我記得是2028嘛對不對"},{"start":6048.298,"end":6076.164,"text":"如果一切順利啦如果一切順利所以我們是先重啟核三嘛然後再來就是核二嘛所以核二應該在2028在之後嘛對不對好所以那時候我們就說了是不是整個這些能源的占比的比再重新好好思考一下規劃不然你這個東西國發會寫出來的報告都我不會寫這樣啦我的感覺是這樣就是讓我沒有信心好再來有一個也是讓我覺得很沒有信心的是這一個就是"},{"start":6077.398,"end":6087.581,"text":"好 光電這個就算了 離岸風電這個增加1.1倍 增加2.8倍我看那個地熱發電到了2065年7MW 2030年寫1.2GW的目標 這增加200倍對 現在是改成200個MW改了喔"},{"start":6099.711,"end":6126.35,"text":"你的報告又沒改了我的報告經濟部已經有改了有改了所以這個務實一點我想說看這個數字我就覺得很奇怪對不對這個有錯能改很棒那國發會也順便改一下這個報告你們兩個部位我每次常常覺得國發會到底是怎樣這個各部會收集的資料如果是最新的那是不是應該也是update一下好不好不然這個讓我覺得哇怕死人"},{"start":6129.076,"end":6152.29,"text":"再來我為什麼還要想要再看一件事情的就是說這個我們的再生能源過去很多的一個弊案包含聯合再生當然國發也答應要試股但那個比例當然還是少那聯合再生來講的話我們來看它綠色的年代是161億五家公股的行庫"},{"start":6153.89,"end":6174.572,"text":"誠信這個是佔政府一定共生的目標35%最具指標性案子三家公股航空綠色連帶是120億台泥的加簽在嘉義的案場這個問題也是很大假示範真廢照也就是說他基本上這些他跟誠信一樣台泥加簽也是養不出魚"},{"start":6176.072,"end":6183.768,"text":"然後再來是永興因為他背後的股東是美國貝萊德投資公司那他在家園的這個漁電共生的案場這個更誇張"},{"start":6185.936,"end":6210.397,"text":"沒有這個農業的這個容許許可然後就已經發電併網這個是那時候我在3月30號講的你就給我先發電沒有再養魚然後呢 匱限接進去之後我想問齁這個在我們整個的流程裡頭不曉得部長知不知道我們整個漁電共生這個申請的流程會是什麼"},{"start":6211.909,"end":6233.687,"text":"包委員他裝置好以後他養魚的部分是要可以好我簡單講他要一樣第一段就是前期規劃土地取得第二階段農業部是要給他農業的農許的許可再來取得農許許可之後能源署你才可以備案跟施工的許可其中很重要就是農業農許許可才能備案嘛"},{"start":6234.375,"end":6255.508,"text":"再來的話他現在跟台電溝通並聯簽署構定合約也就是說他必須要滿足農業的容許許可之後才能夠發電去並聯然後台電才可以付錢這段流程沒有問題那上次我在3月30號跟招資委員共同開的這個有請農業部部長農業部部長就是"},{"start":6260.193,"end":6264.666,"text":"當時我問了漁業署的話對不對你們跟能源署然後這樣子的魚歸魚 電歸電"},{"start":6267.199,"end":6294.569,"text":"被我抨擊還款也一直在抨擊後來3月31號你們也知錯能改說絕對不會對不對我們還是漁電共生我跟你們報告您所說的漁歸漁跟電歸電也是在我們現在的政策是完全沒變的情況之下只是讓我們的案場在規劃設計的時候就能夠依照我們這個我清楚你們的那個說法很不好啦我是一個IBM的主包商或是與我們簽的地址"},{"start":6295.089,"end":6311.884,"text":"那我拿到標案之後我發給A包B包那請問誰要負最大責任如果A包B包做不出來還是主包商的責任嘛所以這跟魚龜魚電鍋店沒關係我電廠當然可以找專業養殖戶來做這沒有問題但是要負最大的責任叫做"},{"start":6313.686,"end":6341.565,"text":"發電廠然後農業部要站穩的力量是保護漁民這個是我一直在強調那你們也很好也就是從來就不再講了很棒啊我是肯定的喔農業部漁業署要站在幫漁民的角度可是當時我問了一個問題根據剛剛的流程來講省紀部調查了完工併網數呢393件嘛查核件數的話122查核通過數37代費只留69農業部自己找的"},{"start":6342.265,"end":6364.84,"text":"是276件裡頭你去查的174件廢紙的35件改善57件基本上總共廢紙加呆改善是92件其實超過你查核數的一半所以有些是以上是Burger那我那天有問能源署我說當他農業農許許可被廢紙之後能源署的態度是廢照"},{"start":6366.451,"end":6378.436,"text":"對不對 甚至你台電的那些賭賣費都不行可是經濟部能源署給我送出來的查爾建樹第62件只有一件招費紙這樣的數字到底能源署"},{"start":6380.031,"end":6403.118,"text":"清不清楚為什麼農業部已經廢止了35件那你們的這個廢止發電的許可為什麼才只有一件因為我們這個農業農許的部分是地方政府核發的好那大小個別有異那現在在這邊登記是大型的電業的部分在經濟部"},{"start":6403.998,"end":6430.524,"text":"經濟部美元署只廢止了一件那其他那些小型都在地方政府登記他地方農業單位廢止以後他就會送到地方的經發單位去處理後續的事情好不錯你再把報告給我因為你的報告我都還沒看到但我是覺得不要讓他們說是用真人種電然後不養魚然後再去騙台電付錢好不好 第一步再把報告給洪委員好謝謝洪義祥委員部長先回座"},{"start":6432.742,"end":6448.298,"text":"好 我們下一個質詢請李玉琳委員好 謝謝主席 請工部長請進入工部長"},{"start":6455.013,"end":6465.656,"text":"部長 我們的能源的配比 大概有五成是天然氣 三成是煤炭兩成就是再生能源 再生能源本來在2025年要達到20%結果到今年才13%而已 2030年要達到30%"},{"start":6473.318,"end":6491.118,"text":"就會繼續跳票那你說要檢討那也希望你檢討出可以達到的目標的%數好不好那最重要我們的所有的能源大部分都是進口過來從國外進口過來的所以如果說國外的情勢有一些變動的話有一些風吹草動的話我們可能就會斷氣跟斷電"},{"start":6495.262,"end":6510.984,"text":"所以在這個情形之下我們也大量的在澳洲跟美國來購買了一些我們的替代的能源能夠有現貨的能源但是現在我們看到我們現在的所有的發電的話到7月份的供電都是沒有問題的"},{"start":6512.426,"end":6532.808,"text":"因為馬上就要下至供電了這都沒有問題喔那可是你們另外一方面台電部分又再跟台塑公司說要他那個廚藝的賣寮電廠啊你準備後再跟他續約簽三個月是不是是準備要簽約了是那我想瞭解說為什麼"},{"start":6538.473,"end":6548.497,"text":"那我們自己台電公司旗下的這些煤炭的發電廠 廚藝的部分我們就可以用自己的發電廠 為什麼要民營的"},{"start":6556.401,"end":6574.552,"text":"台電的電廠都是自己在掌握的啦所以我們要怎麼樣做我們都會事先準備好沒有問題但是跟麥寮因為麥寮是IPP嘛但是我們必須要合約關係所以這個合約關係要先建立起來那我們先建立那個關係因為他必須把已經封存的這些"},{"start":6574.872,"end":6600.221,"text":"你打了合約之後的話 就像之前的麥寮他發電沒有足夠的話 你會請他繼續發電那你像剛剛簽了合約 如果不需要的話你還會叫他發電 是不是剛才部長已經講過了 就是說中火的部分就會降低一部分讓麥寮這邊來發我們希望是這樣子啦因為不要在個別城市集中在那邊你要調度一下 分散一下不要集中在麥寮"},{"start":6601.161,"end":6626.438,"text":"對不對 因為我們本來台電旗下就有好幾家原來已經廚藝的也可以來做備員好不好 一定要分散那接下來想請問的就是說因為我們看到所有的這個發電喔在2029年這個麥寮電廠的話本來他是要從煤炭改成天然氣嘛如果跟我們簽約之後的話他會不會影響到他這個天然氣的這個進程"},{"start":6631.302,"end":6637.402,"text":"他有兩個機子要改成電燃氣啊我們要簽下去 他替我們發電那2029年他能完成嗎"},{"start":6638.853,"end":6662.741,"text":"沒問題 沒問題 他不同的地方不是在麥寮嗎一樣在麥寮的兩個廠嗎跟委員報告一下 他基本上 他1號廠跟3號廠嘛對對對 他是 那你現在兩座的天然氣呢會在哪裡 他在不同的土地對 2號廠跟另外他有空地那邊好 所以不要影響他的進度 天然氣的進度 我們再持續其實最終好 那所以現在本席也要再請教的就是說因為你們剛剛所講的這個天然氣齁這個發電的問題齁"},{"start":6666.622,"end":6687.101,"text":"一定要把它的量都儲存過來不然的話你們又要在麥寮這邊再增加兩個廠那接下來想請問的就是說我們的再生能源的話有聽說我們要發展我們的小水利是不是你們也盤點出40個地方這40個地方你們開始在施作有哪些地方"},{"start":6690.511,"end":6705.798,"text":"水利署跟農村署因為他現在盤出來後續會根據他施工的狀況去陸續去做招標的動作那這個資料我們可以再給你這個進程呢 短中長期進程可以 我們這個報告我們看再給我比較細部的因為他現在正在盤出來不要因為他的"},{"start":6707.058,"end":6724.154,"text":"發電的那個能量會比較小你們就不去推廣不去執行因為現在桃園我們桃園那個南崁溪那邊已經開始在做了這個小水利發電的他就是利用我們的峻路就水準的峻路跟高低差的水路來做一個發電雖然發電的量體不足"},{"start":6727.076,"end":6753.212,"text":"但是你有40個點你盤點這個40個點的話如果是全國去推動的話一定可以做得更好是不是報告委員上個禮拜我剛好去勘察那個南港系他們確實要規劃一個利用高差去做銷水費那目前我們已經有完成的有17個點位正在開發中的有5個點位你說全國是不是對全國那另外還有27個點"},{"start":6754.873,"end":6764.106,"text":"就是剛剛委員所談的正在評估中未來要積極推動包含南坎溪的部分我們會積極來辦理只要適合的地點我們都優先來推動"},{"start":6764.915,"end":6786.034,"text":"所以你的短中長期 你說你看已經有17個點已經確定了什麼時候趁勢使用因為這都是現成的嘛對 已經完成有17個點對地理 對環境都影響非常小對生態也都能夠保護但是因為它的適合點位是有限的因為你要看渠道的一個位置不能影響它原來的空當然 你不是說已經評估審查17個點這17個點你什麼時候做27個點已經正在評估中了"},{"start":6791.579,"end":6809.385,"text":"那通過的幾個點已經完成有總共有17個點所有的完成是完成開始在執行的開始在執行有17個點然後5個點是正在推動中的那另外還有27個點位是正在評估中那我們會把會後資料把提供給委員"},{"start":6810.205,"end":6832.39,"text":"好 本席在這邊提的就是說我們要再生能源不要侷限只有太陽能尤其太陽能的話因為它我們台灣如果颱風啊 供電大雨來的時候我們的電就沒辦法穩定供電所以再生能源我們可以來分散像這個小水利是非常不錯的也希望你們能夠積極的來推動在全國加速推動 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝呂毅林委員質詢好 部長先回座"},{"start":6839.019,"end":6841.442,"text":"蕭瑋 蕭瑋榮 蕭瑋榮 蕭瑋榮不在在齁好 請蕭瑋榮委員質詢你要舉個手啊謝謝邱昭偉齁 請工部長請經部工部長"},{"start":6861.957,"end":6886.879,"text":"部長好賴委員長部長我先首先先請教因為高雄其實電力相當充足包括這個興達南部跟大嶺都充分的在發電那其實國家的AI算力中心這也是全力在推動當中那我們都認為其實設設在高雄其實最適合的部長怎麼看是所以我們現在鼓勵如果要設置比較"},{"start":6887.941,"end":6901.981,"text":"重要或大型的AI算力中心的話到高雄是比較合適的所以現在政府的立場都有鼓勵各企業不管是NVIDIA或是其他各企業的都往高雄來設置這個AI算力中心是這樣嗎"},{"start":6903.002,"end":6921.796,"text":"是的 就是有電源的地方因為它需要大量用電嘛那你既然要大量用電你當然要就近往電力發展充足的地方來設置也不應該設在其他地方電力送過來給你這也不合理嘛那除了這個之外那國家呢在這件事情上面還能夠出什麼樣的力量"},{"start":6923.562,"end":6943.331,"text":"我們當然就是說要把電網都先準備好雖然像高雄來講的話它的電力是充沛的但是如果要適當的地點還是要電網的支持所以那這個部分我們就積極來辦理也跟他們做一些協商到底在哪一個地點比較好然後把電數送到那個地方去"},{"start":6944.111,"end":6957.53,"text":"是 那部長除了這個之外的話在整個國家會有設置一個類似像專區或設置一個怎樣的一個方式來鼓勵大家甚至於政府來帶動大家來設置這個AI的算力中心嗎"},{"start":6959.883,"end":6974.993,"text":"對我們會鼓勵比如說高雄來講地方政府他如果有一個AI的算力中心也好或聚落也好然後有一個示範性的一些做法那這個是我們會支持的對我知道的是高雄市政府現在已經有提出這樣的規劃了類似這樣的規劃"},{"start":6975.373,"end":7004.996,"text":"提出這樣的規劃那希望有一個AI的算力中心那也希望經濟部能夠全力來支持啦就是他在周邊的一些各項的一些軟硬體的設置上面能夠全力來支持跟配合那這樣有助於讓民間的投入能夠更加的加快速度也讓他們感受到中央地方同心的在高雄這邊在電力最充足的地方來設置AI算力中心所以這個部長是支持這個方向支持是支持好謝謝那我們"},{"start":7005.437,"end":7005.879,"text":"事實上也謝謝高雄願意"},{"start":7008.999,"end":7034.604,"text":"支持那麼多的電力發展我覺得這個也要請部長要多多的那個因為高雄其實在這一塊確實對於是很付出很努力的那我覺得這個對國家的整個經濟發展上面跟整個經濟都是非常重要的我覺得這一塊也希望能夠部長能夠更加的支持不要只是在電力的供應而是在於產業的發展對於不管是半導體AI的這個發展上面都能夠更感受到中央對高雄的重視是好 謝謝"},{"start":7035.424,"end":7044.001,"text":"那再來請教一下啦齁 這個大寧埔遷村台湯的土地需要來編列經費來架構那這個部分是已經解決了嗎"},{"start":7045.426,"end":7069.469,"text":"現在在進行當中好像還算布裡面已經過了嘛 現在是到院裡面去了嘛 是不是是的所以現在是方向事實上是由經濟部來編預算跟台堂來做架構嘛然後架構完了之後這個就加速整個大林埔千村的程序是嗎對 因為前一陣子就是需要的面積有稍微大一點比原來的櫃灣大一點"},{"start":7070.53,"end":7088.716,"text":"那這個部分也請台堂協助後來同意了所以也同意了好 經費就由經濟部來編列了行政院也同意了這多少經費 部長這多少經費額外增加的部分40億增加40億那經濟部跟行政院都同意了"},{"start":7089.857,"end":7118.276,"text":"行政院應該同意了對 我知道好像也是同意了那我希望這個盡快來推動啦這個不要讓正式營拖太久的時間那土地確定了那41邊列的我們就盡快來整個取得這個土地然後盡快加速整個千村的一個程序好 謝謝那另外我要請教的是當時的時候其實報告市政府報告經濟部因為經濟部是千村的主管機關本來講的是在今年的上半年要完成這個登記的程序然後今年要包括"},{"start":7119.596,"end":7140.561,"text":"啟動架構這個協議的程序然後年底前要完成環評跟都計的程序部長都還在這個期程當中嗎是 現在所以登記在今年的六月底前會啟動我們積極的來辦好 今年六月底前會啟動登記的程序然後協議交交程序今年上半年會啟動那今年年底前會完成那明年就可以正式來遷春嘛"},{"start":7141.751,"end":7166.971,"text":"開始啟動部長我們希望這個部分請部長還是要落實盯緊所有這個程序好 謝謝再來我請教一下其實綠電這個大家都越來越重視台積電包括很多產業都要加入RE100這樣的一個程序但是到了2024年的時候光台積電好了以台積的指標好了才達到RE25而已也就是說甚至於整個騎乘上面都影響了"},{"start":7167.631,"end":7190.113,"text":"部長這樣的期程上面我們有辦法趕得上嗎企業上的需求我們對於這些大型的這些I-100的用戶事實上都有滾動式的跟他洽詢他們需要用的綠電是多少那我們也有相當的準備部長那問一下綠電的程序現在上是不是已經落後了在整個國家的原先的規劃上面是不是已經落後了"},{"start":7190.906,"end":7214.847,"text":"報告委員就是它這個是比例啦比例可能沒有辦法做到但是我們達到的是它裝置容量希望可以達到就是綠電的總量是可以滿足R100或他們的需要所以如果以R100這些企業的目標不管是2030年2025年的這些資料2035年2040年的資料我們都可以照這個預定的目標來完成嗎"},{"start":7215.695,"end":7241.281,"text":"對 我們跟他的討論都是到2035年所以這些目標是可以完成的照整個前面這個設定的目標是可以完成的對 就可以滿足他們的需要那我們希望盯緊盯緊這個目標能夠照這個時間來完成那另外我要提醒的是接下來因為原先我們預定的最早是設定2025年要達到20%的一個綠電這三年的目標那現在又延到了今年的11月那接下來還會再延嗎"},{"start":7243.092,"end":7270.829,"text":"報告委員所以我就說因為它這個分子分母都一直在變尤其是分母它變的速度非常非常快就是說所以我們現在的目標比較是用裝置容量就是綠電的裝置容量部長你要不要改變一個說法因為你現在分母越變越大嘛所以你分子的速度就會變得相對去慢了你的20%的目標可能就變得慢了那你要不要未來要改變一個說法讓大家知道不然外界會認為說好像原先預定的20%的目標遲遲無法來達成"},{"start":7272.89,"end":7278.556,"text":"是 我們會盡量來說明好不好 這個要對社會各界說明那所以未來不會用20%來做一個目標嗎"},{"start":7280.95,"end":7307.928,"text":"不用這樣的說法嗎就是綠電綠電的這個推動啊還是會持續而且非常積極來做推動這個是方向上是不是不會推動我知道但是你的設定呢總要有一個目標在像本來原先預定是24到2025年要完成現在延後那像到今年2月的時候15.4如果你以20%的目標的話顯然還很遙遠也許到明年甚至都還沒辦法完成"},{"start":7309.619,"end":7334.295,"text":"因為分母增加真的蠻快像今年就有四部的這個大型的天然氣機組它要並聯這個分母又變得很大所以我希望是部長要來思考啦因為大家一直緊盯著這20%如果你的騎乘上是有延後要讓各界知道那如果你要改變因為分母變大太多你要改用其他方式那也要讓社會各界知道我們綠電的速度持續來推動那另外我要提醒部長"},{"start":7334.815,"end":7354.538,"text":"綠電還是要持續加速來推動因為它對於整個全球的包括台灣都非常重要是是是好謝謝謝謝謝謝戴祐倫委員部長請先回座好接下來請邱志偉召委執行"},{"start":7361.946,"end":7368.322,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是先請國務部長 然後國會的詹副主委請國務部長 中郵的方董事長方董事長 請"},{"start":7372.392,"end":7398.869,"text":"如果這個荷姆斯海峽持續去封鎖或者每一陣子持續延長的話當然分散游泳很重要比照其他國家的做法韓國他派一個總理大使總統大使去各國去找游他們去沙烏地阿拉伯去哈薩克跟阿曼他們找了2.7億桶的原油全部繞過荷姆斯海峽"},{"start":7400.077,"end":7428.639,"text":"所以避免如果戰事持續擴大或者持續延長的話我們中油有沒有相關的緊急的購油計畫來分散油源有我請那個方董事長說明一下當然不可諱言那麼中油進口的原油呢原先在戰前呢不是啊我說我們有沒有這個計畫因為我聲音有限我們有沒有相關的緊急的購油計畫過去韓國是沒有跟沙烏地買喔也沒有跟哈薩克買也沒有跟阿曼買"},{"start":7429.901,"end":7451.593,"text":"為了戰事的關係他一次買2.1億桶我們會與仇魔啊我們的其他的替代油盈就是在非洲啦非洲還有澳洲澳洲原先就有就請他增產而已嘛是是是類似像這種做法那我們目標啊你說從非洲有多少數量的原油可以增加"},{"start":7452.962,"end":7473.085,"text":"我們要買肝原油是一船一船買的我是說你應該是學韓國做法有一個特使去各國去採購去詢問有沒有可能再提供供油比如說像韓國的做法我們就可以借進我是提供給部長做參考一定要為我籌謀你們到時候缺油的時候找不到油"},{"start":7474.226,"end":7483.776,"text":"全世界都在搶油 這部分再提醒部長另外2030年 你剛剛一直提到說這個一定會達成綠電20%我們一直的總目標是藍氣50% 再生能源30% 藍煤20%這是原先的總體目標 2030年做一個時間點"},{"start":7498.939,"end":7508.866,"text":"你現在2025再生能源佔比才13.1剛剛那個二位也提到所以這個你有提過這個目標再生能源佔比30%的目標會不會改變"},{"start":7512.725,"end":7535.996,"text":"我們是盡力啦但是這個所以你就是是不是如果做不到就目標要調整嘛目標要調整才知道我們要循序漸進要穩定的推動嘛你不能畫一個餅在那邊然後永遠沒有辦法達成所以目標該修正就要修正啦30%是一定要達到的但是時程可能會延後您的說法是這樣子沒有錯嗎"},{"start":7536.916,"end":7560.271,"text":"對 方向上 因為我們最終的規劃啦這個齁 國發會跟經濟部要做一個整合你們報告裡面齁 看所以你今天報告國發會報告第三頁然後這個經濟報告第一頁你針對那個針對那個地熱的部分啦兩個數據完全不一樣國發會是說1.2MW你們是經濟部是200MW"},{"start":7565.151,"end":7591.022,"text":"那到底是差距在哪裡 差很多耶差六七倍 差六倍就是我們務實的這個那你說國外不務實因為要達到1.7真的是有世上的困難設定目標你的科學依據是怎麼來的那你經濟部你比較務實你變成200MW是什麼樣的困境你要把它調整 往下調80%這個副主委"},{"start":7593.763,"end":7613.912,"text":"1.2是你們設定的嘛,你們報告也這樣寫,我到底要聽誰的看誰的沒有沒有,跟委員報告,其實這個也是之前根據台電的資料但是因為經濟部有調整,所以我們會根據經濟部的調整你們報告出來之前也應該要檢視一下,跟經濟部對一下或者會讓人一頭霧水,到底誰說了算"},{"start":7617.27,"end":7634.764,"text":"我們會尊重經濟部啦那我要求國發會跟經濟部是不是一個月之內完成2030年第2跟各項的各類的綠能一個合理跟一個正式務實的一個目標值可以嗎一個月之內齁來接下來這個另外這個天然氣的部分齁"},{"start":7642.469,"end":7657.05,"text":"台灣有非常規的天然氣叫做頁岩氣我們現在所有的天然氣都是外購對不對都是外購有沒有可能發展這個非傳統的天然氣"},{"start":7660.401,"end":7686.288,"text":"方董目前我們台灣用的天然氣99%都是進口的那是非頁岩氣是不是也可以當作一個天然氣的一個替代可以但是台灣沒有頁岩氣好那我們有沒有可能去採購其他的頁岩氣目前從美國進口的天然氣就是頁岩氣現階段就已經有了是吧是好接下來離岸風電"},{"start":7688.869,"end":7714.779,"text":"兩份的問題是說這個三之三期你們3月27日突然公布這個選商機制這個會引起整體目前有意願的開發商會措手不及我們當然希望說這個能夠加速這個能源轉型但是你相關政策一定要在務實的基礎所以目前有很多問題存在是說你備標跟併網時程不切實際市場可能會有過度競爭的問題所以我建議 具體建議"},{"start":7718.328,"end":7739.321,"text":"可不可以彈性調整期程然後把雙方ESG的違規責任做個相關的規定這個我拜託是不是經濟部上個月之內提出相關檢討報告好上個月之內好嗎另外氫氣的部分我們現在氫能的發展到哪裡"},{"start":7741.926,"end":7756.84,"text":"現在如果看使用端的部分有在高雄嘉青站的示範性計畫還在研究示範的階段很多國家已經在運用另外就是剛剛提到的如果是那個"},{"start":7758.018,"end":7785.136,"text":"那個fear sale的那個部分事實上已經有企業在運用了那我們也有一些方案即便這樣子我們覺得我們還在非常起始的階段其他國家已經已經應用在很多的這個實證場域嘛已經在有一個產業鏈或者相關的市場應用都已經有很明確化嘛日本跟這個韓國也是一樣日本他是用政府來主導"},{"start":7786.838,"end":7800.437,"text":"你們現在好像只有中友在做但是我們到底有沒有這個新人的這個整個整體戰略規劃一定要政府主導然後配合其他產業來協助然後有階段性的來推動"},{"start":7802.656,"end":7825.041,"text":"現在有分成兩個部分一個是產清怎麼樣產生清氣的問題然後運送清的問題然後還有運用端的問題這些日本都有相關的經驗我是請經濟部是不是三個月之內你面對這個氫能發展一定要整體的戰略性規劃然後我剛剛說的你這個要怎麼形成明確產業鏈跟應用市場"},{"start":7827.242,"end":7835.727,"text":"然後有跨部會的整個層面都需要經濟部跟國會來協助所以是不是三個月之內提出我國氫氣農園發展的相關檢討報告是 好 謝謝好 謝謝邱少偉 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長 謝謝好 下一位陳少明 陳少明不在"},{"start":7856.158,"end":7870.318,"text":"下面請劉素冰委員好 有請農業部陳俊基部長農業部陳部長"},{"start":7877.919,"end":7891.107,"text":"好 部長好我們看到是上個月漁電共生的新制草案已經確定由農業部的漁業署經濟部能源署光電工會的光電的工協會來研擬那由農業署來研定"},{"start":7896.269,"end":7913.736,"text":"漁電設計指引提出這個案場的標準設計模式那也決定說案場漁溫的經營權有光電業者無償出讓呢提供漁業署跟養殖協會媒合漁青來進場這是一個改變是好事情那我們看到漁業署也說呢草案件有找漁業的團體進場來做討論但是我們看到的是中華民國的養殖漁業發展協會的執行長呢"},{"start":7920.758,"end":7932.942,"text":"侯彥龍他說這次的草案協商當中修訂當中養鞋並沒有被徵詢並表示過去是講的是要做養鞋的輔導那請問一下目前的情況如果沒有光電的漁電的設計指引並沒有漁業的實際經營的養殖協會的參與的話那怎麼樣能夠做出來好的一個指引呢"},{"start":7949.429,"end":7974.76,"text":"第一個我跟委員說明這樣子的一個所謂的漁電工生專業的分工這樣的一個作為還在我們內部的規劃當中所以相關的養鞋在那時候提出說他並沒有被取斷只是我們那時候還沒有啟動正式的對外去討論那上個禮拜其實我們已經找他了第二個我要跟委員報告的就是說"},{"start":7975.62,"end":7993.596,"text":"我在報告書裡面有寫就是過去的案場都是光電業者用他的想法去蓋蓋完了以後那些餘溫可能有一些我知道我們現在想要把這個問題在程序開始初期是在進行嗎所以這個東西我相信一定是要跟專業的養殖"},{"start":7995.617,"end":8021.133,"text":"業者跟光電業者做好的一個合作用他的專業去做他專業的事情那請問一下那你們草案什麼時候會大概會出來那講職業者的部分一定會講就對了第一個就是說這樣的一個概念是大家都被認同而且是可執行的以外那同樣的就是後續的這些媒合的部分我們也要建立一個好的一個機制但是你還沒回答我大概什麼時候會出來你們時程規劃應該有方式"},{"start":8022.774,"end":8049.899,"text":"我想我們沒有一個完整的時程說一定要多久因為我們不願意貿然的推出來然後有非常多的不同的意見然後又沒辦法解決所以我想我們會更好的一個設計以後讓大家都能夠朝這個方向走那重點是養殖業者一定會去發整體的一定會去邀請他們來去參與一定會 上禮拜五也邀請他們也把我們的想法跟他說明了"},{"start":8050.239,"end":8078.208,"text":"那我這邊我要再跟農業部提醒一下這些部分呢你剛才說的漁電本來是就是漁電共生嘛對不對那現在情況之下呢因為你們目前早上就是說要早上漁跟電要分開這樣子呢我們特別要知道說如果設計的好當然沒問題可是要知道有些問題是在中間才發生的覺得要知道說如果電業的部分呢它光電業它如果並沒有去對於後面的它也要沒有承擔一些部分"},{"start":8079.008,"end":8104.616,"text":"承擔的一些就是說他在後面如果發生問題的時候我就說合作的部分當中機制不是只有前面就做好而是必須到後面的時候包括他的一些前面的一些投資包括後面的成果部分呢他也應該一起下去配合的話才能達到是不是可以承諾這樣的事情我想這個就是在我們在討論在設計的裡面一個非常重要的大家要有這個認同在施工的時候光電業者要有一定的承諾而不是說他想怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋"},{"start":8106.016,"end":8132.043,"text":"然後相對的蓋好以後他的作業區漁民專業養殖的這些協會認為這樣子的作業是不受影響的那不受影響的話漁民就願意進來那漁民進來的時候也不是說光電業者就完全從此沒有責任他還有相關的這些連帶的必須要去在共同經營的情況之下去為這個漁電工生而努力"},{"start":8132.563,"end":8158.017,"text":"好 如果往這方向去進行 希望不要到時候變成說光電跟那個雨夜又分開了 那大家就沒辦法去適用到我們現在的這個二十七條的部分我們講的是專業的分工是 好 希望說到 你們剛才有涉及這個部分嗎是不是可以把這個後續的一個發展當中是不是可以跟本席的 就有這樣的相關的程序跟本席來做持續的報告我想我們溝通告一段落 我們再跟委員做一個說明因為溝通的時候還要收集不同的意見這樣子"},{"start":8158.697,"end":8175.994,"text":"好 希望說能夠往很重要的方向 尤其是有一個比較好的一個確定的方向再跟委員說明好 希望這邊的漁電的部分的這個3.0未來是這樣3.0嘛 對不對這樣的發展呢是能夠為我們台灣的光電業這邊 還包括農業呢漁業這邊也找到另外一個新的出路好 謝謝部長請回座下一位質詢下一位質詢 蔡議員"},{"start":8201.723,"end":8210.571,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉那我們是有請經濟部經濟部總部長農業部農業部陳部長經濟部請先回經濟部部長請先回農業部陳部長好部長好部長最近"},{"start":8220.993,"end":8235.608,"text":"事實上從很多媒體開始在揭露這件事那事實上在農村也確實都感受得到就是說因為農村的人口老農也老人家漸漸少了那現在當然青農要挺上來"},{"start":8236.249,"end":8258.218,"text":"那青農挺上來這個也是一個過渡的一個期間而且青農的農村的經營跟過去傳統的老農經營不一樣但是我們也看到另外一個新的族群也就是移工移工他大概他們也漸漸適應台灣的生活那這些移工有些他可能已經取得身份有些可能是"},{"start":8258.678,"end":8268.605,"text":"透過嫁過來的取得身份證那有些可能是一個非法的一個移工就是我們說的這個逃逸的一個移工那他們可能會就變成一個團體這樣的一個團體就由有身份證的人來租"},{"start":8274.81,"end":8282.956,"text":"租農地那或者是甚至是直接直接就是施約的方式輸入的方式去做這些農地然後就變成說這樣的一個移工團體他們就去經營的這樣的一個農作他們經營農作第一就是他們的身份跟傳統"},{"start":8296.307,"end":8324.058,"text":"農村我們要騎牆工那成本就有差成本就有一個很大的落差然後第二個就是說他們可能就是因為他們是逃逸的所以他們也不用勞健保如果我們台灣人農村我們要請一個移工的話我們要幫他最基本的勞基法的一個保障我們都必須要確保但是要確保這些保障事實上就是成本的一部分所以成本起來台灣人去聘請"},{"start":8326.719,"end":8345.347,"text":"去聘請這個農工跟移工他們自己 主要是大家口口的他們就做 大家賺他們的身分差這麼多這個身分差這麼多就會造成整個農作整個市場的行情就會有一個很大的落差那我用這個上下游的一個報導"},{"start":8347.408,"end":8358.454,"text":"如果菜價掉到八塊的時候以台灣的農民來說他大概是虧三塊錢但是如果是我剛講的地下的一個移工的老闆的話他會賺四塊八塊 一個八塊賺不到八塊台灣人賺三塊"},{"start":8371.361,"end":8387.072,"text":"剛才說的那個地下的碳氣庫這個就有這樣的一個落差那這個落差就會造成整個市場行情的不穩定這件事情也已經在蔓延然後大家都會注意到這件事情那部長你們現在要怎麼面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":8388.953,"end":8405.44,"text":"我第一個跟委員說明,您剛剛提過資訊高利貸的部分11塊會虧3塊,這是不確實的一個訊息那這個比喻是可以被接受的那重要的就是說我們現在目前就光農業的移工的失聯率大概8%點多"},{"start":8406.961,"end":8433.18,"text":"所以我們第一個重點就是說怎麼樣去降低這個失聯率那我們發現說很多移工在進到台灣來的時候他就欠了非常多的錢所以他希望在短時間之內趕快還錢的時候那很容易就跑掉去可以到處打工可以賺更多錢這是一件事我們用會想辦法跟勞動部做執銘的方式來處理那您提到這個問題我們也有一些掌握"},{"start":8433.78,"end":8453.4,"text":"那掌握的過程中其實最大的困擾就是人頭就是合法的人頭出面租地那這個部分會造成很大的困擾那相對的他租地以後用非常多的黑工黑工的部分的時候當你去查的話他這一瘋瘋就散掉了那散掉的時候農民反而抱怨我們"},{"start":8454.361,"end":8467.331,"text":"沒辦法收藏了因為過往他們有時候會仰賴一些黑工去幫他採收然後一旦強制去抓的時候所有的黑工跑掉的時候反而在那個產期那個產季會有問題所以抓那個時候他們沒工啦因為這是一個很矛盾的就是說事實上"},{"start":8473.476,"end":8501.236,"text":"包括過去很多台灣的農民也是有這樣的一些工的需求這些工的需求往往是這些人只是說這些人現在他們也知道怎麼適應台灣的這一套文化了所以我現在就是說我會強化我們的外展移工的跨區跟跨時間的一個合作去協力他們去做然後針對有次序的去管理我們的移工我覺得是我們下一階段更重要的一個要點部長"},{"start":8502.057,"end":8526.276,"text":"事實上這所有的問題這個事實上塑本追元起來就是台灣的農業勞動力的一個缺乏農業勞動力這才是最根本的問題農業勞動力事實上也產生幾個來自幾個面向部長你可以去思考第一個就是說我們對於農保的一個要求事實上過於嚴格這個嚴格就來自於說比方說"},{"start":8528.698,"end":8551.858,"text":"那如果我的農作的期間,事實上我可以打一點零工那目前是規定180天,我農保那我去有短期的去打零工,可以有180天可是這個180天事實上,這個規定是不是過於嚴格因為事實上有的農作,我只要做一個,我都有時間就去做另外一個工作"},{"start":8552.719,"end":8570.332,"text":"所以能不能就是把這個180天放寬到一年或者是怎樣的一個時間第二個我覺得部長可以認真去思考就是說我們現在在審查農保的時候萬一這個農保他可能又被掛了公司的負責人結果他這個農保的資格就會不見"},{"start":8571.753,"end":8592.026,"text":"事實上我們知道說,有的很多去用掛公司負責任,甚至是,即使孩子去開公司要用他們爸爸的名字,連帶影響到他們爸爸的農保的資格,這個當然就是另外的問題,但是我認為說,就農保的這麼嚴格的一個限制之下,這個農保比老保啦,比什麼保都還要,"},{"start":8593.027,"end":8613.912,"text":"都還要嚴格喔就是說到了64歲即將他要65歲農保退休前就要去審查他的農保資格但是這個農保資格又很容易的因為剛剛他可能跟老保只要有一點淨核關係的話往往農保就不見變成說這裡的農民都覺得說喔 保農要怎麼保農部這都變得很不確定"},{"start":8620.573,"end":8647.219,"text":"這會間接的就是影響到說事實上我們很多農作是可以用兼職的方式很多兼職的這一些勞動力的來源但是我們在農保這一塊卻把它經過丁律來這一道門關起來所以我覺得部長你如果我們現在因為台灣現在漸漸邁向少子化是一個問題那這個勞動力的一個來源如果我們還因為保險制度去把它"},{"start":8647.819,"end":8669.154,"text":"做一個限縮的話 我覺得這件事情不對而且現在很多東西都是網路事實上現在電腦都可以對接我們只要堅守一個說反正他就是一個每個人都有一個退休制度但是他的保險的一個資格不要輕易的讓他不見來我想要聽一下部長我想謝謝委員的提醒喔 那我想"},{"start":8670.635,"end":8695.244,"text":"從農業部的立場來因為農保他沒有退場制度他不像說65歲以後就沒有了就要轉別的就是他一直把他去那只要他願意真正的從事農業我想農業部願意做相關的一個條件的一個改善但是我們也不希望說因為條件的改變了以後造成很多因為勞保本身的費用一個月才78塊而已非常非常的便宜"},{"start":8696.164,"end":8718.253,"text":"就會讓他變成用這樣的一個漏洞去加保農保但是他根本完全沒有從事農業所以我們現在推動種植登記制度有沒有他以後就可以做有效的勾基跟我們現在的這個肥料實名制 農藥實名制做勾基所以我們現在很多資料庫的勾基相信對這個制度的改善會有幫助"},{"start":8719.093,"end":8738.108,"text":"不轉 反正說了制度啦我們還是希望第一個就是這個制度是有效而且它是可以確保大家的福利存在然後這套保險我也希望是可以讓更多人可以加入農作的這一個行列我們還是要站在這裡鼓勵大家都來務農嘛不管還是兼職農還是兼職農就是讓 對 讓他"},{"start":8742.932,"end":8765.854,"text":"從事農業的人可以鼓勵他們進來 這樣才對抱歉 講一段話幾分鐘就好就幾分鐘就是說 我想跟這個部長反映一下阿里山的這個林鐵啦我上個禮拜我有到這個阿里山去這個十字路車站 哇 非常的漂亮那裡 哇 整個景觀啦那裡騎阿里山林鐵 到了那一個的氣氛然後他"},{"start":8766.554,"end":8775.798,"text":"它的軌道旁也是一個很漂亮的一個商圈的聚落但是這個十字路車站事實上有個狀況他們反映的就是說因為畢竟是臨鐵它是比較傳統的五分車所以這個阿里山的這個鐵路常常會變得旅客無法充分掌握車子到達的時間事實上台鐵都有這樣的話就是說他就直接告訴人家"},{"start":8792.746,"end":8798.749,"text":"這台車它的滿10分鐘這台車滿20分鐘讓旅客可以去了解車子大概會準點到或者是會慢時到他就不用把他的時間耗在那裡等待我覺得這個是科技上用個設備應該就可以解決的"},{"start":8810.775,"end":8824.826,"text":"報告這個絕對做得到而且我們沒有往上做因為阿里山的這些路線往往因為天都的關係會延誤嘛但是能夠讓旅客知道延誤的時間他還可以做別的事情這個我想我們會即刻去處理這個技術非常成熟了這技術應該是做得到我覺得這個林鐵也應該來採納這樣的技術讓整個旅遊的品質會再提高好不好謝謝部長謝謝蔡議員優質的質詢"},{"start":8843.959,"end":8846.161,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進一會請經濟部的龔部長"},{"start":8870.198,"end":8894.809,"text":"部長你好 我要請教你啦我們現在天然氣儲量到底是11天還是12天規定是11天啦 現在大概是12天那你在這裡公開場合都講了我們因為總統打仗嘛 去調貨啊三四五都已經搞定了 6月份是不是還有三分之一沒有搞定是不是"},{"start":8896.029,"end":8917.588,"text":"6月份大致上也差不多了 已經OK了所以6月份也搞定了 7月份咧7月份現在正在 正在規劃正在 所以大概什麼時候可以全部好 那現在這樣子齁一艘船 這個你講的齁 一艘船要多花10到11億20艘船就要多付200億 現在還是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8919.93,"end":8934.994,"text":"欸要看那個當時的價錢的變化我們是釣到了這個船但是價錢呢要看那個船起那時候的變化那因為原來大概是11塊左右嘛那現在大概比較低一點了現在是大概19塊18塊"},{"start":8939.192,"end":8963.61,"text":"現在來講我請問你現在掉的都是掉美國的油美國的氣跟澳洲的是不是不是美國澳洲比較多美國澳洲比較多天然氣的部分對那油勒油是本來是從鴻海我們原來說那個赫姆斯那從鴻海那邊出來有掉到然後另外還有從非洲的部分阿曼"},{"start":8965.031,"end":8977.042,"text":"那現在美國看起來美國可以重新掌控荷姆茲將來的話我們還需要再調嗎?就直接從荷姆茲來是不是比較爽?會不會?"},{"start":8978.345,"end":9001.377,"text":"因為河母池如果油的部分因為河母池我們現在有一艘船嘛一艘船在裡面還在等啊但是既然可以從海紅海過來的話我們就從紅海啊所以河母池不要了那時候不要了是不是不是不要就是還是還是沒有的時候大概什麼時候可以出來要看那個情況穩定以後所以你不知道"},{"start":9003.727,"end":9016.874,"text":"現在你這樣掉啊你這樣掉啊美國跟澳洲那個價格比較貴吧應該比卡達貴吧貴多少貴多少報告委員您問的是天然氣還是原油"},{"start":9020.07,"end":9032.686,"text":"應該價格上它是一個市場競爭性的價格應該都是差不多的啦沒有比較貴嗎?沒有沒有那這樣以後就不要跟卡達買了以後跟美國買就好啦沒有這麼風險啦"},{"start":9033.948,"end":9053.06,"text":"所以我們未來 可是美國現在已經六成了耶 整個六成了耶 那是石油天然氣我們會增加美國的購量 增加到多少希望在2029年的時候到25 現在是10左右就是還沒有戰爭之前啦 大概是10左右"},{"start":9054.073,"end":9067.5,"text":"沒有 我先去問一個題目啦中東現在看起來雖然看起來好像搞定可是看起來變數很大乾脆就不要跟中東買了直接跟美國買就好了也跟平衡要談美貿易利差可以嗎"},{"start":9069.389,"end":9095.419,"text":"就是到2029年呢是有這樣的規劃有這樣的規劃就是慢慢增加美國然後呢中共那一部分就慢慢減少幾乎就不要了就這個意思不會完全不要啦不會完全不要還是要分散降到多少是不是因為就是增加美國的部分就是減少卡達的部分"},{"start":9096.719,"end":9115.855,"text":"那是多少 你說一下美國是從15%會變成25%嘛所以差15%的百分點這是汽油 汽油 油呢油它美國本來就是六成啊所以 不會再增加了喔好 那個電價動漲到九月這台電說還要虧三百多億是不是台電公司 請台電公司說明"},{"start":9126.045,"end":9142.523,"text":"報告委員目前大概一個月因為天然氣漲價所以大概100億所以大概到9月大概300億300億那現在如果繼續如果油氣要漲你們還是這樣子的話可能數字比較更大了"},{"start":9144.082,"end":9156.839,"text":"是不是因為每個月底中郵會調一次期假好 最後一個因為主席站起來我就很簡短的就是這個其實啊就很清楚看得到嘛我們都在黑黨的不斷講不斷講你這個"},{"start":9159.162,"end":9188.24,"text":"人員配比者是要核電你現在都不要核電結果現在就變成說錯誤的政策啊讓一直虧一直虧你看他傳的都這麼多來講所以就是回答一個問題我們希望快一點因為已經賴總統講話了重啟核電能不能快一點最快當時啦我們目前再運轉計畫跟自主安全檢查都是比預定的時間再早一點再送件什麼時候找到什麼時候"},{"start":9189.335,"end":9211.189,"text":"我們已經在一段計畫已經送件給核安會了所以最快可以能不能再提早半年讓他好時間到可以報告委員因為那個我們還要配合原廠他的這個自主安全檢查的步驟台電沒有辦法完全自己決定不過原則上就是安全事項是一年半到兩年好謝謝"},{"start":9215.953,"end":9216.093,"text":"謝謝大家 現在上會"},{"start":9242.774,"end":9249.601,"text":"今天算快了最有效率的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}