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廖政文"},{"start":1945.43,"end":1971.313,"text":"其餘列席機關請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄首先介紹在場的委員陳佩玉委員現在進行提案說明是不是請陳委員代理主席一下可以嗎"},{"start":1987.747,"end":1989.43,"text":"接下來有請提案委員羅廷偉委員說明謝謝"},{"start":1996.428,"end":2017.583,"text":"好 鉴于现行原子能法已逾50年未曾全面的修正期间随着核能及辐射相关的业务发展相关的业务均以制定专法加以规范例如游离辐射防护事项以自由现在的游离辐射防护法"},{"start":2018.368,"end":2031.666,"text":"放射性物質管理已經有放射性物料管理法核子反應器設施則另有核子反應器設施管制法規範"},{"start":2033.408,"end":2057.194,"text":"至此本法的性質已由原本直接管理轉為整體政策的原則之法律又原主管機關原子能委員會以改制名為核能安全委員會為配合現行的組織體制並明確的界定我國原子能政策之基本的方向與"},{"start":2058.234,"end":2081.137,"text":"未來的發展原則還理據這次的原子能法部分條文修正草案並將法律的名稱修正為原子能基本法以符合實際並強化法治體系的完整性以上好 謝謝提案委員說明"},{"start":2093.029,"end":2100.05,"text":"好 提案說明完畢本次的會議採一併報告綜合詢答現在進行報告請河安會陳明禎主委報告報告時間8分鐘主席"},{"start":2122.233,"end":2145.575,"text":"各位委員 女士先生 大家好今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並且同各單位主管向大院進行我國海域放射性物質監測執行現狀及未來應用作為專題報告在此感謝大院委員及對本會各項工作的支持及指教"},{"start":2146.616,"end":2174.056,"text":"首先就我国海域放射性物质监测执行现状及未来因应作为进行报告因应日本排放寒川废水河岸会要求外交部农业部海委会卫福部交通部及国客会共同组成跨部会因应平台定期开会推动各项应变作为并且通过源头掌握"},{"start":2175.526,"end":2202.076,"text":"扩散预报强化监测与资讯公开等四项应用措施建立我国海域放射性物质监控机制以下紧要说明各项措施推动成果在源头掌握部分河南会密切掌握国际原子能总署IAEA及日本政府就寒川废水的监控作为必于每次排放后主动对外发布及时资讯向民众说明"},{"start":2203.512,"end":2221.539,"text":"源头监控资讯及我国海域监测结果另外为掌握日本寒川废水排放情形河岸会自111年至114年期间共六次赴日本辅导实地了解排放设施与环境监测情形"},{"start":2223.871,"end":2243.293,"text":"在扩散预报部分河南会与气象署合作自112年8月24日开始排放寒川废水后立即启动7日海洋扩散预报并于每日更新寒川废水扩散情形截至目前日本已经执行19次"},{"start":2244.855,"end":2269.165,"text":"排放作业透过最新扩散预报结果显示寒川废水扩散影响范围仍以日本本州东部海域为主台湾周遭海域受影响极为轻微河岸会透过跨部会合作强化各项海域服饰监测一同执行海水与货物"},{"start":2270.492,"end":2299.787,"text":"日本输入水产品及生态系物种各类海域样本之检测分析包括穿射、石沽、鸟蹄、碘及探河种继续共计完成18000余件今年已规划分析4893件次分析结果均无辐射异常并于每周更新于跨部会辐射监测整合仪表板"},{"start":2303.567,"end":2328.122,"text":"另有关国内生物川检测能力国园院于112年成立首间生物川分析实验室提供每年500件之检测能量并于113年协助河岸会辐射监测中心及高雄市政府卫生局使国内扩展增至三间生物川分析实验室检测能量提升至每年2000件以上"},{"start":2329.216,"end":2348.248,"text":"1月4年3月,实验室均已取得卫福部食品检验机构认证,可满足各部会之检疫测试需求,并可提供业者或民众自行付费检测。为落实资讯工程,河湾会建立放射性物种海洋扩散海洋资讯平台。"},{"start":2349.505,"end":2368.404,"text":"中英文版本作为日本寒川废水培放相关资讯正确传递的窗口另设置一周扩散预报概括跨部会整合仪表板及国际资讯集市看快捷专区与图卡专区方便民众了解并确保资讯透明"},{"start":2370.233,"end":2385.849,"text":"考量日本寒酸废水排放将近排放30年河南会将整合跨部会资源集体争取建制国家海域放射性物质污染监控认证网计划透过持续监测"},{"start":2386.63,"end":2407.665,"text":"污染辨识追踪溯源冲击贫困之核心架构建制快速韧性的监控网络强化我国海域环境放射性物质污染之及时掌控能力进一步提升我国海洋防汇韧性河岸会作为河南安全主管机关秉持辐射专业坚持控制坚持"},{"start":2410.088,"end":2425.564,"text":"去监控日本排放含氧碳水对五国之影响并落实源头掌握强化监测扩散预报及咨询公开等措施确保我国海域及环境福祉安全维护民生与产业稳定发展"},{"start":2427.13,"end":2444.053,"text":"以下针对大院委员所提原子能法修正草案进行报告原子能法为原子能政策与安全管制的根本法治基础全文共九章三十四条内容含划总则主管机关全责"},{"start":2445.254,"end":2473.172,"text":"科研发展资源开发利用及对核子原料核燃料核子反应器与油离辐射防护制管制规范并延伸至奖励与专利制度损害赔偿机制及相关发售等对于各位委员所拟拒之原子能法部分条文修正草案和安徽净保尊重"},{"start":2474.69,"end":2484.657,"text":"感謝各位委員所提及對原子能發展的支持與關心以下請就各位委員提出說明進行各位不定指教"},{"start":2485.871,"end":2506.679,"text":"委員所提草案主要是因應行政院原子能委員會組織蓋證為核能安全委員會將原子能法所設機關名稱由原子能委員會修正條文為核能安全委員會行政院以依法公告原子能法所列署原子能委員會的全責事項"},{"start":2508.34,"end":2537.43,"text":"自112年9月27日起改由核能安全委员会管辖管协权已完备另外针对委员所提有关原子能主管机关层次修正确实有助于安全管制机关之职能但核能委员会属中央行政机关组织一环已予以行政院就所属机关之功能业务组织架构通盘检导考量"},{"start":2540.646,"end":2566.323,"text":"目前和安徽不同管制领域制定核子反应器设置管制法方设计物料管理法有力辐射防护法及核子事故紧急应变法作为现行管制依据将本于职责与专业持续完备相关法规及管制规范"},{"start":2567.642,"end":2589.719,"text":"保障民众健康与环境安全无虞并促进原子能之和平与永续利用以上报告不禁之处借请委员指教好谢谢陈主委报告其提出的书面报告机关代表除书面外有无口头补充"},{"start":2592.705,"end":2617.862,"text":"好 機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定首先現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好 沒有議事錄確定"},{"start":2623.508,"end":2645.843,"text":"現在進行巡打每位出席的委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢時間是4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午的10點半委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點半前提出並於本會委員羅廷偉質詢結束後即進行處理"},{"start":2649.56,"end":2667.906,"text":"處理提案時落提案的委員及連署委員均不在場毛躁軟膩是不予處理首先請登記第一位陳培鈺委員質詢好謝謝主席有請主委謝謝有請主委"},{"start":2677.261,"end":2692.742,"text":"好 主委早安我們來看一下這個第一張的投影片是我們看到一個新聞稿河岸會的新聞稿說台電已經在3月27號送出河山廠運轉執照的換照申請還有再運轉計畫文件"},{"start":2694.304,"end":2709.283,"text":"那河安会说你们在4月8号的时候已经确认台电送来的文件跟计划是完整的而且符合申请要件所以接下来河安会会正式启动实质审查作业以上的资讯是对的吗"},{"start":2710.373,"end":2725.478,"text":"是的好那我们接下来就来看了所谓再运转计划这件事情我认为大家会非常好奇一台电的计划内容是什么二何安会如何进行所谓的实质审查我们来看一下为什么要问这个问题呢来第一个"},{"start":2726.118,"end":2741.581,"text":"我想所有的事情來下一張河安是首要但是在上一次3月18號的時候河安會的匯報裡面到叫文來國民黨還有民眾黨很多委員一直問時辰一直問時辰要河安會回答那我要先說在還沒有看到實質的"},{"start":2742.082,"end":2767.035,"text":"报告之前就积极的要求明确的时程我认为这个非常不合理因为台电不是只是一个教功课的人河安会也不是一个简单改考卷的人在教了功课跟改了考卷之间我认为河安会必须要清楚的跟国人交代来下一张那之前台电自己也明确的说安全没有办法用时间去权衡所以当台电交出再运转计划"},{"start":2767.515,"end":2793.872,"text":"之后台电还要再提出自主安全计划所以接下来我想要给主委您一点时间向国人报告河安会未来要如何审查这个计划会邀请什么样的专家学者会有什么样的机制让国人安心来 主委请河安会依据河管法来实施这个审查详细的内容我请我们的高组长好 谢谢"},{"start":2795.404,"end":2819.94,"text":"好 跟委員說明喔 那國內的核電廠都已經運轉執照已經屆期了那依照新的核管法的規定就是如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要提出申請那主要要提出兩份的文件那一份就是剛才委員所提到再運轉計畫那主要目的就是要將原本是處在處於階段要把金主恢復到運轉的狀態"},{"start":2821.229,"end":2842.261,"text":"那另外一份文件就是包括老化管理老化評估跟耐震安全等相關的技術報告那這部分就是台電公司對外所說的自主安全檢查那所有的文件都要通過核安衛的安全審查跟現場查證那才會確認符合法規後才會同意換發執照"},{"start":2843.717,"end":2873.058,"text":"那在這個過程中除了核安會的同仁審查之外核安會也會邀請外部的學者專家那主要就是包括有核工那機械土木結構以及移電等等跟電廠整個電廠運作息息相關的專業領域的學者專家來一起來審查相關的技術文件那所有的文件跟審查的意見都會公佈在核安會的網站"},{"start":2873.658,"end":2900.172,"text":"那也可以讓民眾可以了解整個的審查作業的情形以上說明好那但是因為台灣過往沒有這個經驗對吧所以我們這一次我認為面臨前所未有的挑戰是當然我相信剛剛處長您所說的不論是河工專家機械專家土木專家電廠運作專家還有河安會我們內部技術同仁會就技術文件來進行審核然後再加上現場查證"},{"start":2901.272,"end":2906.155,"text":"可是因为过往没有这个经验我想问处长你们现在心里面有没有任何的规划"},{"start":2932.974,"end":2953.451,"text":"來 處長謝謝你直接回答跟委員說明那確實現在國外的經驗很少包括國內的情境也跟國外也有一些差異事實上可以參考的案件事實上我們也去參考那整個參考國外的經驗也都是以個案來處理這些案件那會裡面確實會依照"},{"start":2955.433,"end":2982.873,"text":"法規跟安全跟國際的一些經驗來審慎的去評估跟縣長去確認台電公司的各項作業要符合法規跟安全的要求所以步驟都是按部就班循序漸進再推動現行你們可能會用到哪些法規你們的用法依據大概有哪些會裡面最原則就是核管法接著就有核子反應器設施運轉執照管理辦法"},{"start":2983.553,"end":3004.245,"text":"另外 核安會也參考國際的做法 我們也訂立再運轉計畫的審查導則所以核安會自己有訂立一個再運轉的這個法則對 審查導則好 審查法則 好 這樣看起來 與法是有所依據的那但是呢 到現場考察又是另外一個問題 對吧那預計第一次召開實質討論會議會是什麼時候 目前有規劃了嗎"},{"start":3008.691,"end":3031.485,"text":"我們現在進行實質審查那也請委員提出審查意見所以委員會先就文件來就提出意見沒錯然後第一次開會預計是什麼時候應該是在五月中下旬好五月中下旬那開完會多久會把相關的會議記錄公告上網還是要等全部都審查完全部都開會完才會公告上網"},{"start":3033.274,"end":3037.29,"text":"呃 跟委員說明喔 就是審查提出審查意見那"},{"start":3038.971,"end":3066.654,"text":"当中如果审查的意见经过委员确认可以接受的话这部分我们就会上网好那我们非常期待看到后续所有专家学者给予核安会还有给予台电的意见那如同刚刚你说的因为就国外来说就台湾来说我们相关的案例都太少了所以我想跟你分享另外一个我不确定我们之后核安会跟台电会不会做这个事情根据国际原子能风险评估组织INR他们有说明"},{"start":3067.535,"end":3089.817,"text":"在核電廠它其實有這個所謂浴缸曲線的問題就在最初的磨合期跟後續的磨損期相關的風險是比較高的所以有非常多事情需要通盤考慮但時間有限我就不再細說但是為了確保這些安全的顧慮可以好好的被照顧好好的被傾聽來下一張所以世界各國為了提升核能安全促進"},{"start":3091.078,"end":3118.612,"text":"經驗交流大家都有一個所謂的國際同儕審查那包含國際原子能總署還有歐洲核能安全監管機構組織都有類似的事情然後透過請世界各國的專家核能監管的機構研究單位甚至是各國的電力公司專家去到不同的國家進行審查進行經驗交流進行評估報告給予這個經驗的交流非常的重要我不確定後續台電需不需要進行國際"},{"start":3120.213,"end":3135.654,"text":"國際間的同儕審查來 何安惠 處長你直接說明好了就我們所知道台電公司會委託國際同儕的審查好 那這個會含在所謂的剛剛自主安全計畫裡頭嗎還是額外再一份報告提交給何安惠"},{"start":3136.974,"end":3162.679,"text":"他會先自主安全檢查完成之後就委託國際那我們也會檢視國際同儕的一些審查意見好所以看起來有我剛剛第一部分說的核安會內部的實質討論會議審查會議同時台電會同步進行國際同儕審查相關的報告也會出爐所以這兩件事情基本上是並行對嗎時間軸是一直往下走的並不是誰先等誰出來誰再往下工作對嗎"},{"start":3164.645,"end":3193.025,"text":"應該是台電公司自主安全檢查之後交給同儕那我們自己內部也會執行那個審查評估另外我們也會再去看同儕審查針對河山廠比如說台電公司提出來河山廠這部分的意見OK 這樣順序非常清楚了所以各自有進行中的工作但最後台電要再把這個國際同儕審查的報告再交給河安會 對嗎所以河安會再往下不管是考察或是"},{"start":3193.866,"end":3215.524,"text":"相关专家学者会议的时候会同步看到台电这个报告听起来目前为止我们很多在意的事情看起来河南会也都有掌握我觉得这个状况听起来是蛮好的但是我们直接跳到下一张再下一张好我们看到河南会在4月20说4月28早上10点钟要在屏东县恒春镇公所三楼礼堂举办"},{"start":3216.024,"end":3241.377,"text":"和安會審查核三廠運轉執照換發案的地方說明會上一次在3月18號的時候我就提醒和安會我認為這個說明會要擴大辦理希望能夠來的鄉親願意來的鄉親都盡量讓他們能夠參與我想知道目前你們在地方上宣傳的狀況或者是如何確保我們希望可以更多鄉親可以參加這件事情目前和安會做了哪些努力"},{"start":3243.807,"end":3266.518,"text":"請主委或是處長回答都可以跟我說明在上個禮拜我們包括我跟同仁有去恆春鎮跟滿洲鄉拜訪那個村里長跟鄉長鎮長等等那也說明河岸會辦理這個地方說明會的目的那也希望說透過鄉長跟地方的代表村里長的"},{"start":3268.278,"end":3284.366,"text":"說明幫我們轉資給村裡鄉親知道說會裡面會辦這個活動也邀請他們踴躍來參加會裡面的地方說明會跟意見表達你現在有辦法確保你覺得或是大概的掌握大概會有多少鄉親到現場來"},{"start":3286.755,"end":3301.897,"text":"有這個掌握嗎目前我們會積極去收集跟了解啦好我覺得啦聽起來還是有一點消極應該是說當然找村長里長鄉長這些都沒有問題可是我認為地方上"},{"start":3302.778,"end":3323.466,"text":"大家要如何去想像我身為一個可能不懂核電的人我也不懂你的法案我也不懂什麼叫運轉計畫我更不懂什麼國際審查對鄉親來說在意的就是安全的這件事情我如何在這個會議中可以得到我要的答案所以我認為我們應該要更積極的去跟地方的鄉親產生連結所以要拜託處長也要拜託主委拜託"},{"start":3324.286,"end":3348.605,"text":"用各式各樣的方法透過不同層級的民意代表把你們要辦說明會的訊息廣發下去甚至當天要有里長廣播非常的local但是我都覺得非常的重要這件事情拜託你們更加積極我們希望4月28號當天早上有盡可能的多人來參加然後讓你們收集意見讓你們傾聽民意確保最多的意見可以被你們"},{"start":3349.145,"end":3375.001,"text":"帶回來和安會作為一個重要的參考依據甚至我們也希望如果可以同步開放線上讓更多人可以參與討論同時發言好嗎線上的部分有可能嗎我想跟委員報告我們會有現場直播好 會有現場直播如果任何一個人想表達意見可以到我們和安會的官網上有個特別區域可以提出意見"},{"start":3375.982,"end":3392.856,"text":"我們會回答所有的問題好 那我們到時候也一起宣傳我認為把更多的聲音帶回來是重要最後 謝謝主席 來河安湖無虞 河沸有解 社會共識持續發展再生能源我認為也是河安會要跟我們大家一起努力的 好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝處長 謝謝主席好 謝謝主委"},{"start":3403.891,"end":3424.287,"text":"下一位諮詢的委員蔡順崇委員主席好有請主委有請主委"},{"start":3434.609,"end":3435.559,"text":"主委好委員好"},{"start":3437.833,"end":3463.549,"text":"請問主委目前因為日本以112年起排放含川沸水入海執行台灣沿岸還有離島還有鄰近海域及北太平洋的公海海域海水的一個川覆攝起樣分析海水覆攝的一個監測機制"},{"start":3465.45,"end":3481.978,"text":"那要请问这个机制是如何那真的能够确保我们的监测数据是具有高度的公信力吗是的这部分我请福士房副组张组长来回答这个问题"},{"start":3483.487,"end":3511.419,"text":"報告委員那我們這邊是執行的是跨部會的一個一個海域的環境監測所以是會分別請那個農委會還有海委會以及衛福部來幫我們在取樣那在實驗室的分析裡頭我們有偵測中心輻射偵測中心跟國運院那他們在這兩個的實驗室的一個分析都有都有達到那個那個TAF的一個"},{"start":3512.359,"end":3534.209,"text":"那個標準的一個認證那在這個監測的數據上我們也就是秉持著資訊公開的一個方式我們每週都會把即時的一個數據然後在我們的一個平台上來顯示然後會有一個那個偵測的一個儀表板讓這一些的資訊都是能夠第一時間來去做一個傳播"},{"start":3541.194,"end":3552.763,"text":"那針對日本的一個福島寒川匯水排放和安慰對未來的一個疫劑排放次數還有那個時程的掌握又如何來因應呢"},{"start":3553.664,"end":3572.961,"text":"那這部分我們就是持續的密切關注日本的在這個源頭排放的一些資訊那依照日本的目前的一個做法從2023到現在他們大概每個年他們的會計年初他們就會公布這一期就是未來一年他的一個排放計畫"},{"start":3574.022,"end":3593.059,"text":"那接下來的每批次的排放的一個前置的一些分析的作業我們也都會密切的掌握日本這邊公布的一個資訊那還有IAEA也都有去做國際的一個同儕我們也都有掌握那在這部分的一個資訊剛剛也是講我們都會去秉持資訊公開會發布那個那個一些"},{"start":3598.964,"end":3608.05,"text":"報導好可以好謝謝那政府呢從那個112年起要推動那個海域環境輻射的一個建設計畫那今年是這個計畫的最後一年對不對那請問一下那對於河安會對於116年到"},{"start":3617.015,"end":3625.118,"text":"119年又有一個建制國家海域放射性的一個物質污染監控的一個任性王那請問那這個計畫呢在跟之前的計畫有什麼不一樣首先那這是一個延續性的所以當然是過去我們執行的一個海域環境輻射監測"},{"start":3636.843,"end":3660.332,"text":"我們都會如期的來去執行那因為再來就是我們過去因應日本排放川水我們有建立了很多的一個技術那所以不管是在分析技術或者是海洋擴散的技術我們接下來在這個監控韌性網我們希望他把它做得更到位那包括我們過去是可能比較偏向這個這個日本到台灣的這個東部海岸"},{"start":3662.293,"end":3677.229,"text":"所以在這個監控任性網我們會著重在台灣海峽所以針對一些離島的一些一些監測的能力還有我們核種的分析的能力我們都會再透過這個監控任性網來去做一個進一步的一個提升再提升對"},{"start":3679.051,"end":3700.21,"text":"那再來我要請問一下主委目前中國大陸在沿岸建了非常多的一個河邊那這個台灣跟大陸的一個距離非常近最近不超過200公里所以這個對台灣來講影響"},{"start":3705.174,"end":3718.96,"text":"很大那我要請問主委就是說中國大陸目前在沿岸它有多少的電廠在運轉你有掌握嗎60座60座的核電在運轉那又有多少正在興建中35座"},{"start":3727.014,"end":3752.278,"text":"三十座三十五座三十五座那這個三十五座如果完成的話可能就是世界第一囉目前是看起來是那請問主委那對台灣周邊在海域的一個環境的影響你要如何確保台灣這個海域的一個輻射的安全我們已經做這方面有規劃了之前請張主任回答一下詳細的規劃"},{"start":3756.486,"end":3785.601,"text":"報告委員就是像剛剛我們也了解這個中國大陸沿岸有這一些的一個核電廠所以我們在監控韌性網這邊剛剛有講我們會著重是把這個台灣海峽的一些監控的能力給補強那在這部分我們也會針對離島會設置一些即時的一個監測站等於主動性的來掌握我們那個台灣海域在這一塊的一些的輻射的一個變化"},{"start":3786.101,"end":3800.572,"text":"那如果說這個核電剛好有天災或是有人為的一個失出發生意外那核安衛又要如何來掌握這個情況然後立刻來回應應呢有沒有這樣的一個危機的一個預備"},{"start":3802.639,"end":3828.826,"text":"那當然剛剛來講除了我們在因為天災最怕的就是一些地震或者是那個所以在大氣的部分因為首先會有一些大氣的一個偵測我們在全台灣有設置了63站那這都蠻高靈敏的所以一有變化的時候我們就會比較就會知道那當然資訊的一個一個查證一個搜尋也就是我們在這部分後之後我們就會來去做一個一個"},{"start":3830.186,"end":3834.671,"text":"因為大陸那邊的透明度我們比較擔心所以我們會比較質疑所以未來的風險我們一定是要關心的"},{"start":3845.163,"end":3866.478,"text":"那同時也要提醒我們主委還有我們所有的部會代表我們對中國大陸的一個核電廠我們不能視而不見然後我們必須要事先要做好完善的一個準備跟因應畢竟好或壞這個對七億還有我們台灣的一個海域都必須要承擔的"},{"start":3869.68,"end":3897.634,"text":"如何在現在兩岸的情勢非常的一個緊張那又要如何來確保我們有跟海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議要有在執行的一個過程如何是報告主委我們有跟大就是中國大陸有海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議那目前每季都會做一個跟對方做一個通聯測試確保通訊上的一個就是通暢以上"},{"start":3899.575,"end":3923.545,"text":"那我們也希望說能夠提醒就是我們必須要一直強化我們兩個海峽目前的一些河岸的安全我們一定要確定的來掌握那從113年到今年的4月以下來講都顯示通年測試的一個過程"},{"start":3925.866,"end":3940.331,"text":"是順利 那請問你要如何來確定在目前兩岸的緊張之下這個兩岸的應變通連是很暢通的是 報告人 到目前為止 每季的測試都是暢通的"},{"start":3943.25,"end":3965.5,"text":"希望是真的是這樣的一個掌握那最重要就是我們要確保這個測試的一個數據是具有高度的一個公信力那河岸應該要建立在自主的一個監測還有要先有預警有預警的這樣機制我們都要靠自己做好最好的準備以上謝謝委員"},{"start":3971.752,"end":3992.508,"text":"好謝謝我們蔡委員下一位質詢的委員柯思恩柯委員好謝謝莊委我們是不是請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":3999.465,"end":4023.141,"text":"主委好台电在上个月已经送交了他们这个换照申请案还有再运转的一个计划那我想何老闻你刚刚报告的已经完成了这个审查程序的一个审查现在这个是由这个专案审查团队进行实质的一个审查那我可不可以先请问一下这个专案审查团队是怎么样组成的"},{"start":4024.175,"end":4039.708,"text":"这个是我们邀请各界的专家学者共同组织和团队详细有请高组长没关系很简单的讲都是属于你们河岸的专家对不对长期跟你们合作的对对河电厂运作所以你的实质审查预计将要审查多久"},{"start":4041.708,"end":4068.724,"text":"是这审查主要还是要看台电公司对这就是我们现在比较担忧的问题因为外界评估你这个手段的审查应该是会有多达上千题吧所以说呢相当考验这个台电的回应速度跟这个技术处理的一个能力那我们根据最近的一个新闻来看就是韩国申请核电的研议来看大概审查作业耗时的三年都还没有重启那我们会不会拖了这么久就你的预估"},{"start":4069.868,"end":4082.365,"text":"跟委員說明那個是媒體講的上千題目前會裡面還在收集那個委員的意見因為那個韓國他們目前為止審查了三年都還沒有辦法所以我說請你預估會不會拖這麼久"},{"start":4084.182,"end":4099.444,"text":"应该还是要以电厂的各自的状况所以我们今天应该是找台电的过来问一下因为我们目前来说是分阶段来提送这个文件的一个审查那台电有没有告诉说下一个阶段的申请文件什么时候会再送出来"},{"start":4100.769,"end":4128.164,"text":"目前还没有都还没有特别去讲嘛因为根据合工的这个专家的评估你如果就是采取这个分阶段提交报告审查其实是可以加速这个电机组这个重启作业的一个时程而且将这个时间可能提前半年到一年左右那目前为止呢我们对于你们专家审查我们是深具信心的我说实在的因为过去来说你们其实长期在run这样的一个机制但是呢这个台电的这个行政效率我就觉得"},{"start":4128.624,"end":4138.256,"text":"永遠都需要因為為什麼我當然必須要有點質疑啊因為低放的目前為止到底處置的計畫我們還是削弱不明啊那我們高放的選址條件目前我也還看不到啊沒錯吧"},{"start":4140.325,"end":4170.065,"text":"是不是是啊第一方没有告诉我们高方也没有然后我们现在还要完全完全depend on台电的审查的时间所以我觉得这个部分里面我觉得何岸我目前可以提到了就是你们好好的督促希望能够赶快提出否则一个可能可以解决我们核能问题的部分就是因为受限于不断的在拖我觉得这个部分完全没完没了而且亲说你们4月下旬要到屏东恒春举办地方说明会"},{"start":4170.625,"end":4198.508,"text":"那現在已經4月22號地點確定了嗎地點時間確定了沒時間跟地點都確定時間什麼時候4月28號我還是要提醒喔因為你們上次有辦這個除疫的計畫但是呢也都是有誠意但是呢恆春地方的民眾是非常不滿嘛他們其實會抗議比如他們認為這個公民的參與度是不夠周延而且很多的相關的資訊不夠充分所以他們都是在網站裡面被動的去了解這個訊息所以呢"},{"start":4199.249,"end":4219.978,"text":"主委你们这次如果说在这次重启之前的这样的一个会议我还是希望能够跟居民好好来做一个沟通这是非常重要的可以吗好接下来我们再来问一下我想今天的原子能法的草案当中罗廷伟就是我们的召委有特别提到一个重点他是希望把河岸会升格为二级的原子能主管机关"},{"start":4220.658,"end":4224.599,"text":"那我想政府未來甚至是越來越這個著重有關於我們核電然後未來就可能發展新的核能然後這就是我們國家主要的核能那個監管一個單位主委你的單位非常的重要你知道嗎但是呢在總質詢的時候呢我也問過卓院長"},{"start":4237.643,"end":4255.601,"text":"目前是回应我说像目前来说二级机关的这个数量已经饱和了所以他说不太有可能但是呢我们看一下近十年来政府通过改组也成立了不少这个所谓的二级单位海洋委员会促转会速发部运动部只要行政委员愿意"},{"start":4256.201,"end":4285.961,"text":"他都有办法成立但是呢而且你看看我要请主委你们各位看一下河安会他真的是有他的必要性的各国的核能的这个管制的单位委会的组成都是由总统总理或是首相提名经过国会同意通过而且就隶属于总统府底下直接向总统报告这是别人来看看国这个河安的这样的一个地位跟角色那你不认为我们这个现在大家说你所主导的这个组织成绩太低吗主委"},{"start":4291.063,"end":4294.384,"text":"你們現在沒有辦法參與行政院更不是總統底下的三個委員會的機關代表成員"},{"start":4306.109,"end":4324.542,"text":"那我们现在在非核的政策之下面我们目前为止已经有个新的一个转机我觉得你们核安会好像就排除在我们的整个政府的这个施政体系之外你都不会为你们这个组感到委屈主委你2024年时候在我们赖总统这个身兼主席的时候你还是他办公室里面的特助"},{"start":4325.902,"end":4343.951,"text":"我suppose你跟他应该算是很熟难道你不能在这个地方去跟他做这样的回应吗这是你所主管这么多核安专家我们未来有这么多新的核能的发展别人都是隶属在这个所谓的总统府之下我们却是一个三级单位然后一问好像都没有办法让你参加你不觉得委屈吗主委"},{"start":4345.143,"end":4363.066,"text":"因为这涉及行政院组织法那就跟你讲组织法过去十年当中有太多只要行政院愿意看中你这个单位为我们的能源未来的整个新的一个发展它势必会在这个组织上面会做很多的调整可是你有上上反应过吗还是你就被动的接受"},{"start":4365.167,"end":4385.095,"text":"如果核安会有调整的话当然对于国际教育人才培育方面是有帮助的但是目前我们是只能举手岗位把事情做好你有没有跟院长提出来过如果没有的话我们可以透过我们这个修法来帮助你啊有机会的话说不定会啊"},{"start":4386.437,"end":4403.269,"text":"好 诸位我还是觉得这个是一个很严重的一个问题我虽然知道你不管在二级在三级你都会做好你的工作但是一个组织的提升不管它的经费 它的人力它各方面的配比我觉得你应该好好的重视这样的问题你绝对不会只是一个过度的"},{"start":4403.689,"end":4421.543,"text":"更何况我刚刚特别提出来你还是当过主席办公室里面的好不好里面的特助这层的关系是别人所没有的你更有这样的条件应该去跟他们好好来做一些反应不过你再说到这个核安会我还是要特别提到你看目前来说的话我们上个礼拜已经召开了总"},{"start":4421.803,"end":4421.843,"text":"是的"},{"start":4442.989,"end":4458.462,"text":"3.3亿那这一下的话你四年共变了28亿那我想说你主要是要降低国际输入依赖然后提高我们的自治的比重没错吧是的请问你如果这个钱给你们了你们可以把你们的自治比重提高多少"},{"start":4461.023,"end":4476.348,"text":"因為目前我們的合一的這個藥物八成以上大概都是依賴國外進口嘛那我既然給你們這個28億建制的設備藥物儲備等等那我們計畫目前可以提高幾成的自治比率我們主要先針對國人常用的九種關鍵的藥物"},{"start":4478.429,"end":4498.818,"text":"沒問題啊 那我說自治比例啊自治的比例就是這九種比方說Solin201所以你們可以提高自治比例從現在零到變九每個藥物的比例都不一樣Solin201我們希望能提高到七成到八成七成到八成某些藥物不是所有的當然 七成到八成這是你們KPM嘛"},{"start":4499.338,"end":4527.927,"text":"是是是所以我们给预章那个金分你们可以提高到七成到八成这个东西都要被检验你今天在这个地方讲我们都要特别提到所以你们我就是提到就是说我们既然可以让你们先行的动资但是虽然这只是第一年计划而已但是我们还是希望在我们选预算的时候我们还是希望你能够更明确的目标因为我们真的不希望什么东西都靠国外那既然你们可以告诉我们在药物的层面上面自治比例可以达到七八成包围不是所有药物我刚刚讲你说九种吗"},{"start":4528.607,"end":4556.312,"text":"九種關鍵藥物 其中最重要的酮二磷磷這個藥物可以達到九種的藥物 你們自知的等於可以其中一種不是所有的 每一種藥物都不一樣我們還是再詳細再跟委員一個書面的說明一定要給我書面說明 因為我上次問的時候你們卻沒有辦法給我告訴我哪個部分所以我們在審預算的時候 你說九種藥物每一種都不一樣每一種裡面可以達到計資的比例到底有多少這些都是我們要一一來看到的我們在審預算的時候一定會看到 好不好好 還是再一次"},{"start":4557.732,"end":4581.342,"text":"跟主委说这个人生最后一场的战役既然有这样的一个条件跟赖主席赖总统有这样的一个关系我还是觉得以面对国际能源趋势的问题我还是强烈认为我们的荷兰组织应该有条件可以往上来做一个更好的组织运作这是你的角色你的责任更是你的使命可以吗谢谢委员谢谢委员"},{"start":4589.551,"end":4601.87,"text":"好 下一位委員羅志祥委員有請陳明貞主委有請主委"},{"start":4610.802,"end":4629.795,"text":"主委好 有關重啟河山的作業全民都很關心那台電3月底送件包括換照申請再運轉計畫整體性老化評估實現老化分析報告相關中期安全分析報告運轉技術規範徵修內容"},{"start":4632.757,"end":4648.421,"text":"輻射相關議題查核評估報告耐震安全評估說明我想請問現在已經進入了實質審查階段嗎那台電的文件是一次送集嗎有沒有需要補件那什麼時候會進行實地的查查這點我請高組長跟委員詳細說明"},{"start":4651.85,"end":4676.064,"text":"跟委員說明剛才委員提到的都是法規要提交的文件那台電公司在3月27號先分階段先提出再運轉計畫那另外剛才其他的文件他後續才會提交出來那大概需要多久時間會把完整的文件提出來這個可能就要看台電公司現場執行的狀況所以看起來只提了你剛講再運轉計畫而已沒錯是"},{"start":4678.359,"end":4681.585,"text":"好 那請台電 真的這邊呼籲一下台電"},{"start":4683.089,"end":4705.9,"text":"要做就盡量走全那台電接下來的相關的一個狀況也請我們那個主管機關能夠多加掌握那接下來基本上再運轉計畫的整備目標就把河山包括組織人力設備從停機狀態要整備回去停機前的可發電狀態對不對那"},{"start":4709.802,"end":4719.712,"text":"再運轉計畫經核安會核定後那台電要執行並提出執行結果報告再由核安會審查那你們有沒有預定什麼時程會請台電來執行再運轉計畫嗎"},{"start":4728.509,"end":4745.101,"text":"現在會裡面已經進行實質審查委員也陸陸續續提出審查意見我們現在正在會診當然過程中台電公司也可以先針對再引轉計畫剛才提到一些人員訓練等等開始進行會裡面在過程中也會執行現場的查證"},{"start":4751.801,"end":4775.938,"text":"去確認說各項的作業有按照法規我問個問題啊實地查場覺得大概什麼時候會開始進行啊大概也是五月即使他現在已經開始做一些作業會裡面的同仁已經進行現場的查證了就是已經開始查場了嘛那我想請教啊當然電力就是國力啦我也坦白說"},{"start":4777.758,"end":4801.809,"text":"錯誤的能源政策要改正 熱見我一直都主張核電必須做我們的能源選項當然也要用最完整的程序跟嚴謹的標準來確保安全這是共識所以這一點需要核安會也要來把關但是國人也非常關注重啟的時程核電重啟過去國內外都有經驗"},{"start":4803.03,"end":4830.248,"text":"我剛剛看我們的柯志仁委員說這個韓國的核電廠要重啟三年都還重啟不了還沒完備所有的重啟的程序那我這邊也看到美國的也有核電廠那麼在2022年停止運轉2023年9月申請恢復運轉那2025年年底通過審查也花了兩年那只是通過審查而已"},{"start":4830.968,"end":4840.38,"text":"那我覺得 河安會有沒有預估一下說大體上我們的審查作業要花多少時間那兩年內有可能通過嗎 有結論嗎"},{"start":4843.744,"end":4869.473,"text":"跟委員說明了這個當中還是涉及到整個設備恢復狀況以及那個會裡面的審查意見整個答覆情形那國外的情形也是確實是可以當作我們的參考但是確實那個案例不多所以都是以個案來處理包括所以那個案例不多什麼意思是兩年以上的多三年以上的多還是兩年以上的少三年以下的少"},{"start":4869.813,"end":4895.328,"text":"跟委員說明剛才委員提到的2022年是Panacea那美國機組他也是進到處理的階段要申請恢復那目前為止還是在雖然去年在審查通過目前機組還在做一個準備作業當中還是有一些文件的品質現場設備要恢復等等所以其實真的要重新再運轉也還看不到其成嘛對不對以這個電廠來說"},{"start":4897.712,"end":4926.658,"text":"還是要看現場整個的設備恢復進行其實你的回答跟我想要講的是相同的啦就你可以看到今天說要停一個核電廠很容易啦總統說停就停啦但是你今天要讓它再恢復那就是無比的一個困難那很多的程序都要去做慢慢長路都要去進行"},{"start":4927.591,"end":4952.23,"text":"那所以到現在為止你也看到我也覺得河岸會你也為難啦時程你也答不出來那當然也不完全是因為你的因素跟台電也有關係嘛對不對台電整個作業整備的過程當中他到底像剛剛前面問的資料我們按照法規該提的資料其實台電好像也沒完目前為止沒有完全提出來嘛對不對那這個就是我們可以看到就是說"},{"start":4953.271,"end":4975.452,"text":"任何政策你今天你要極性的去把它停掉是容易的但是你真的要再恢復所有人就難上家了那我舉個例子我其實過去這10年來真的是像狗狗飛火車一樣我覺得不斷告訴大家所謂的非核家園"},{"start":4977.648,"end":5004.607,"text":"三個預言嘛 電力必缺嘛 電價必漲嘛 空污必增嘛我想請問我們主委 這三個預言有沒有多應驗確實核電有助於電價的穩定我們當時民進黨蔡英文總統說十年不大漲電價那也漲得一塌糊塗啊 所以一定會漲電價嘛"},{"start":5005.888,"end":5021.991,"text":"那第二個電力一定會缺不電力不缺請問幹嘛我們核電幹嘛重啟啊對不對電力也是缺嘛就至少無法因應未來尤其像AI時代那種長期的電力的承載嘛沒錯吧主委是的對啊"},{"start":5022.574,"end":5047.332,"text":"然後再來空污增因為你核電拿掉我們現在火力發電的比重就大幅增加嘛因為綠電跟不上所謂的核電被拿掉的比重那就會要大幅依賴火力發電更何況電力還在正成長所以回頭又講一件事就是說今天其實是滿遺憾站在這個地方啦過去謝榮介跟我我們這些人狗飛火車十年"},{"start":5048.827,"end":5077.654,"text":"終於廢到火車好像終於看到懸崖在前面願意改個道轉個彎那不管怎麼樣啦就是亡羊補牢啦時有未晚那也希望我們現在時程上可以看到還是一樣遙遙無期啊就政府已經承認政策是有問題的但是你就知道轉彎有多快像之前還問光合共人才斷層也是個問題不錯沒事沒錯吧對不對對啊所以"},{"start":5078.464,"end":5100.237,"text":"核電廠的整個建設跟核能的一個政策的一個發展的過程當中其實國家是花了非常久的時間 將近半世紀的時間累積出成熟的技術 成熟的人才 然後成熟的能源供應但只因為今天一個政治口號 所有東西打破重來"},{"start":5102.2,"end":5111.227,"text":"從來可以啦 請這個安全要顧到然後腳步也要加快以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝羅志強委員下一屆謝榮介委員"},{"start":5137.33,"end":5155.715,"text":"主席我請譚主委好,有請陳主委主委教授在你的報告裡面這個日本的白紅的婦人污染的海水那麼對著這個川跟石"},{"start":5165.68,"end":5178.43,"text":"我們是只監控川而已嗎?我們監控的還不止是川而已國際現在是針對川和石比較有一個指標性的訴苦我們請副社中心主任跟委員好委員好這個目前IAA裡面是...還沒有說有多少的報告嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":5196.109,"end":5208.376,"text":"目前舊日本排放的水的檢測結果,目前都沒有異常那麼我們國對這個海水的感受,你是如何作為"},{"start":5214.551,"end":5229.461,"text":"跟我們報告,我們目前來講的話有跟農業部、海巡署、水事署等等的單位我們有進行台灣海域的監測,總共有107個點位"},{"start":5231.903,"end":5252.408,"text":"那分不同的頻度,比如說每期、每半年、每年去取樣取樣的河種如同委員剛講,我們主要監控河種在水的部分是以春跟澀為主但是我們也有做其他河種的監測,比如說所以一把空氣的點是以固定的座標去出用就對了對,那個高木鉗已經出用幾次了"},{"start":5258.681,"end":5283.134,"text":"呃,我們就剛剛講的就是我們每一劑每一劑會取樣,每半天會取樣所以出院有幾次啊?哇,那個大約啦,沒關係你跟我說大約沒關係,我接受一百零七,大概一年大概會有五百多次以上五百幾次啊吼,那麼上,咱主機簽簽嗎?對"},{"start":5288.056,"end":5295.948,"text":"送的核種都是送到偵測中心或者歸院去檢測目前都完全沒有檢出異苗沒有發現異苗那麼幾回有檢對"},{"start":5301.448,"end":5324.315,"text":"海洋所捕獲的魚類、魚體來做檢測嗎?有,我們漁業署有提供我們這個海生物來進行檢測那同樣的海生物我們也是有川啊、澀啊這些河種我們都有進行檢測目前也都沒有發現異常情形"},{"start":5326.914,"end":5348.509,"text":"這是對臺灣人的健康,因為依照冬季時宜來發表日本的白鳳,來到臺灣海岸的污染應該差不多在三年左右所以今年大概就是有可能會發生到海岸的污染"},{"start":5351.232,"end":5356.217,"text":"但是以市長來說,當然是這樣報告,所以今年就變成要,你們有想要對蔡英文的出手嗎?有這個計劃嗎?"},{"start":5368.181,"end":5394.799,"text":"報告委員那就是盧孔委員講的我們在110年日本還沒排放的時候我們又去做一些潛勢分析大概三四年對台灣開始就是會影響那其實在日本在112年開始排放的時候我們跟氣象署中央氣象署我知道嘛就是說依照國際所有的認定就是說那的應用應該是今年嘛會來到我們台灣的海淹嘛"},{"start":5395.66,"end":5400.087,"text":"所以我不是說你今年會增加蔡英文的出手數"},{"start":5401.464,"end":5429.522,"text":"目前是他們大概我們看的一個追蹤是川的濃度大概還在關島附近距離台灣一千七百公里所以在我們一百一十五年的一個監測還是會維持跟一百一十四年一樣大概每年都會有快五千件的一個檢測所以我們感情我們的誤測就是說今年還沒達到我們台灣的海域所以可能每年才會高"},{"start":5430.562,"end":5452.239,"text":"這就是,所以你有錢每年什麼時候這個污染會來到我們台灣的海洋目前我們都還是持續追蹤啊,然後還是講的這個海洋可是你怎麼有錢嘛,所以你不可以說我今年不用整個每年要整個嗎這對台灣人來說,我們對他們實在重重的健康和婦人污染大家都很重視嘛,是不是不然你今天報告要做什麼?是不是這樣?"},{"start":5458.817,"end":5476.025,"text":"你有機會,你現在的企業企業企業是這個穿戴式那麼以時間來算,今年你的退出,它不會達到台灣的海約如果這樣,明年什麼時候,大約什麼時候,會來到我們台灣的海約裡面"},{"start":5480.946,"end":5504.162,"text":"這部分我們都定期追蹤我們大概固定都是八、九月會開一個跨部會的一個討論會因為畢竟這個還是要分析的我們才可以比較有精準的一個預測那這樣我們都是滾動的把擴散的一個預測的結果我們一定反映在明年的一個監測計畫裡所以今年你剛才給我的答案就是說今年要到關德附近"},{"start":5509.925,"end":5525.571,"text":"這樣你把今年到關德附近 九年到什麼地方準年到什麼地方 這三天來 你所管轄的數據那五年到什麼地方 或者是說五年到台灣的時候是什麼時間這個報告可以上網分析嗎可以的請你提供 來主委 我請教你喔"},{"start":5537.455,"end":5539.78,"text":"讓人家二想三想重啟,我問過你,事實上你沒辦法說,我請問你,你不便在這裡說,因為怎樣?"},{"start":5549.301,"end":5556.887,"text":"這個意識形態當的人,繼續擁護婦人的人,他沒得到跟沒得到,臨環精神也沒得到跟沒得到,這個選擇利益那麼要重新選擇婦人來做為我們國的發展臨環基因,跟選擇完全隔離,不易採用"},{"start":5570.238,"end":5590.185,"text":"這是兩種的選擇那麼你普遍在這裏表達亞裔是要安慰某一些特定的人卻是說不想傷害到他們的感情我們是可以提倡的那麼你有衝著主觀尖閣國家聯盟政策的朱雄的總統跟行政議長來提出"},{"start":5593.186,"end":5608.257,"text":"這個施政,讓人二手三手,重啟這個決定大會,可以多久的施政,可以完成你日本人都不說,但是你也把總統跟行政一定要報過過嗎?還是他們罵沒有?罵沒有?"},{"start":5614.093,"end":5633.768,"text":"沒有 院長跟總統都沒有問過我們來...他不要問過你啊 這樣拼命的嘛不是啊 要出一支水 還要重啟核能還要有水無芯 火辣給小雞肉時間上不是在核安會控制是裁定會決定這個..."},{"start":5636.766,"end":5649.016,"text":"所以他沒有去掌握我們台灣經濟、人文這麼緊張、國際這麼緊張,結果我們想要重啟輔營的時候,只出一句話說要重啟核能,結果他沒有去掌握我們,這是很離譜的!所以你看到他沒有去掌握我們就沒有辦法決定時辰,OK?你看到他都沒有去掌握我們喔!"},{"start":5664.669,"end":5675.059,"text":"他不是問我,他沒有直接問這些問題了,他是說當然會關心,但是重點是要核安能夠確保你也為了要拿便宜,拿一個理由出來說,你心中本身大寶"},{"start":5684.648,"end":5696.217,"text":"他有跟你關心過 或是有跟你問過 讓你中間差不多多久的時間可以看得到效果 或是多久的時間可以中心運轉都不敢跟你問喔他有 我有說明這些問題 我沒辦法給他一個確定的時間表是 你沒有辦法給他時間表確定的時間表因為他有問你 因素會影響你剛才是跟我說他都不跟你問喔"},{"start":5714.398,"end":5730.445,"text":"你講得很清楚,他當然會關心,但是他沒有要求我什麼時候要完成審查他沒有要求你,他說他有關心你,你現在還說他有關心嗎?他當然會關心啊所以總統是很擔心我們的靈魂不捲嘛所以他有關心你,是你沒有給他答案嗎?是不是這樣?"},{"start":5742.138,"end":5758.565,"text":"我核安會立場是沒有辦法給他確定可以運轉的時間,因為很多因素影響人生到底總統剛才是有關心或沒有關心,有跟你說謊或沒有跟你說謊他有關心,但我沒有辦法回答時間有關心或沒有問,沒有問還可以關心真厲害,真厲害"},{"start":5766.816,"end":5778.304,"text":"你也吃夠硬,你小到厲害你剛才把這些問題都從包包座位,紅骨包刀啊又沒有答案,又沒有第三人,又貼總統餅乾不錯,好謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5797.657,"end":5808.412,"text":"我們下一位委員 郭一群郭委員好 謝謝主席 呃 有請主委有請主委"},{"start":5815.86,"end":5834.621,"text":"主委早安我要來關心同時我也要來提問關心跟提問我今天都會進行好那我想這個台電已經在三月底送出這個核三廠在運轉的一個計畫但是三大的前提這個是最基本的條件"},{"start":5835.242,"end":5858.007,"text":"包含我們的安全要無虞那核廢要有解那另外就是社會的共識這三大前提大家都要兼顧才能夠談這個重啟的部分所以這個確切的時間表當然其實也不能急啦但是我想要問的就是先講一個很簡單的一個問題核三如果要重啟我們的人員到底人力夠不夠"},{"start":5858.507,"end":5873.185,"text":"再來專不專業的這樣子的一個問題那我想核電廠這個不是按開關繼續把它開下去其實就可以了那重啟內課是非常重要的一個關鍵但現在外界其實擔心除了設備以外"},{"start":5873.666,"end":5895.796,"text":"那麼最重要的是人的部分我為什麼要先提人的部分因為我們知道這個合工人才的流失甚至我們現在可能會找這個退休的人員回來支援那我想問的就是現在我們的操作員的考試是不是還是聚焦在所謂的正常運轉的一個範圍當中那如果說重啟是一個高風險的一個狀態考題會不會也因為這樣子的一個這一段的設計"},{"start":5901.538,"end":5920.824,"text":"來做一些不同的一個內容的更改那第二個就是退休回任真的安全嗎那我想人才的專業度也要納入這個審查非常重要的一個項目那如果真的離開了這所謂的一線那多年的這樣子的一個這個人力回到"},{"start":5922.423,"end":5947.356,"text":"現場要來支援他會不會因為反應的速度不夠或者是對於所謂的系統的熟不熟悉這個其實也是要納入考量的一個重點再來第三點我覺得比較重要的是如果專業人力的不足而沒有達標那我想何安慧能不能夠直接說不能重啟還是我們會降低所謂的審查的一個門檻這個部分請主委回答"},{"start":5948.556,"end":5975.18,"text":"人力資源配備確實是河岸的選擇一個重要的標準這部分詳細的問題我想請高組長回答好跟委員說明那有關於運轉能源考試這一部分那會裡面本身就有一套的考試機制由河岸會的自己的資深同仁來擔任那考試的題目當然依照法規都會包括正常運轉操作跟異常的操作"},{"start":5975.66,"end":5989.879,"text":"那異常操作就會包括剛才委員所提到的在運轉期間可能會遇到一些問題都會納入考試的題目裡面所以考試的內容應該會什麼時候再設計包括正常跟異常的狀況好"},{"start":5991.221,"end":6012.614,"text":"那另外就是對於所謂的這個離開一線多年的這樣子的一個人喔這個再回來那我想這個專業度很重要我剛剛講這個部分是不是也放在所謂的專業的審查的一個範圍當中而且我們是用同樣的一個標準而不是因為說他們已經離開了現場多年然後回來之後我的考試的這個分數或者是我的標準降低會這樣嗎不會"},{"start":6013.915,"end":6042.005,"text":"因為有關於退離的人員再回來去支援電廠這部分也是屬於台電公司的包商管理這一環那這部分本來就是台電公司要依照品保的程序去進行包商的資格管控以及作業程序的品質的掌握那會裡面河南會也會透過現場視察去查證台電公司整個作業包括包商這一部分的作業品質"},{"start":6043.086,"end":6057.534,"text":"那如果專業人力不足我剛剛有提到第三點如果專業人力的不足那沒有達標那這個部分我們要怎麼辦還有沒有更多的一個新的一個機制好 跟委員說明再來"},{"start":6058.654,"end":6073.925,"text":"核安會的再運轉計畫裡面就已經明確規定了就是除了法規規定以及運轉跟維護人員的配置啊訓練啊以及證照等等都有一些明確的規定要求台電公司要將機組恢復到運轉的狀態這部分都有規定去"},{"start":6077.648,"end":6094.846,"text":"到時候就會去檢視所以人力的標準會公開會公開然後再來就是也要有紅線那如果真的不達標是不是就考慮會駁回在運轉當然法規規定的一些運轉法規規定的能力這部分一定要達成的好"},{"start":6095.948,"end":6118.948,"text":"這個是針對人力的部分那麼第二個我要談的這個主題其實現在大家都在談這個小型的這個SMR那我想這個國內我們的學術其實也正啟動跟國外的一個交流但是我還是要提醒這個技術是可以討論但是風險不能等到發生才研究技術可以討論風險不能等到發生才研究那我想這個我們自己的"},{"start":6119.448,"end":6135.213,"text":"研究還是我們目前是有自己的一個整個所有的研究的這樣子的一個計畫還是說我們都是聽國外的廠商或者是國外的這個他們的一些專業的一個數據那我們政府手上自己有沒有所謂的完整的一個風險的一個數據這是第一個問題第二個問題就是核廢的種類會不會不一樣"},{"start":6139.794,"end":6151.827,"text":"核肺的種類會不一樣因為包含SMR的核肺種類還有它的壽命還有它的儲存方式是不是跟我們目前所認知的其實是還是有一些就是專業性上的一個不同這是第二個問題那現在的法律能不能夠支撐"},{"start":6155.33,"end":6172.039,"text":"我所謂的現行的一個制度其實我們是為了所謂的這個就合點來設計的那麼將來如果比方說這個SMR的部分我們未來是不是可以用得上那我想要做研究還要修制度但是我們還是要談安全這個問題那這個部分是不是請教主委"},{"start":6174.043,"end":6199.215,"text":"小新模組化反應器 SMR 行電上它的風險是比較低的在理論上比傳統核電廠低好幾個數量級而且監管職責還有研究的一些計畫我想國務院院長高院長來跟委員回答這部分好 包含我剛剛有提到的就是 SMR 它的壽命還有它的核廢是不是有些不同它的標準"},{"start":6200.553,"end":6216.568,"text":"包委,SMR它的壽命如果是看哪一種形式,它有分傳統清水式跟核一二相產類似的另外非清水式的像熔岩式反應器還有這個Multisol Reactor還有這個"},{"start":6218.75,"end":6233.66,"text":"快終止的反應器這種的壽命因為是比較新的使用所以它的壽命就現在還在測試階段要等五年以後比較可以明確那對於這個核廢料的"},{"start":6235.397,"end":6254.751,"text":"處理就是基本上傳統的核廢料清水式反應器SMR跟我們大型的差不多但是有三種像Modern Solar Reactor還有這個Nature另外三種反應器它可以大幅減少七成以上的傳統跟傳統核廢料可以減少七成以下的核廢器物"},{"start":6255.191,"end":6272.168,"text":"好 我想這個部分其實為什麼我今天會特別的提出來因為其實大家對於SMR還是有一些期待但是我們不能只講好處然後不談風險這是我想要點出的一個問題好 最後一點時間我想這個合一的藥品它其實不是存量的問題那我想這個是時間的問題"},{"start":6273.649,"end":6290.557,"text":"那我要談的是這個國家藥物的韌性那我想很多人其實忽略了一件事情就是合一的藥品其實它是不能囤也就是因為它的效果會隨著時間而衰退像大家現在都在聚焦所謂的TC99M它的半衰期其實只有6個小時"},{"start":6291.417,"end":6307.683,"text":"那它是用在哪裡呢它是用在比方說像甲狀腺啦或骨骼啦或者是腦部的一些檢查喔那就算有其實它有時間的一個半衰期但是這個問題不只是有沒有而是來不來得及喔那這個部分其實我們在整個所有的"},{"start":6308.143,"end":6329.769,"text":"大家在聚焦這個部分那我們其他的一些合一的需求該怎麼辦那另外呢我們的產能到底夠不夠還是我們這一半是仰賴進口那另外就是說沒有原料但是其實試劑也很重要所謂的試劑沒有KIDS這些醫院根本用不了那這個部分我們是不是簡短的回答一下是那個產能的部分"},{"start":6330.909,"end":6348.925,"text":"產能不會像TC99半衰期是只有6小時但是我們有一個KIDS可以來發生器可以來產生這個所以就是透過這個計畫雖然是TC99所以現在還在計畫階段還是說我們自己已經開始有國內自主的一個產能"},{"start":6349.866,"end":6373.564,"text":"這個產能目前是還是靠進口沒有錯但是我們還有其他的新機梗塞的鑄罐劑像剛剛所說的索連201現在供應量是4成我們70MV明年上來以後可以到7成到8成那加67這個半衰期78小時這個達到目前是百分之百將來也應該是百分之百這個另外KIDSKIDS的供應這個"},{"start":6376.124,"end":6402.536,"text":"因為不同跟不同的試劑來做一個熬合所以它的班差距比較短所以必須為什麼要藥物韌性必須在醫院裡面立即做標記標記以後不能長期仰賴國外進口所以要透過這樣一個四年的藥物韌性計畫來提高一個藥物韌性的一個自主跟國內尤其在疫情或者特殊的狀況戰爭時候能夠有儲備足夠的核藥物"},{"start":6405.577,"end":6432.976,"text":"戰備的庫存的一個標準這個也一定要就是準備好這個不管是中期或者是短期甚至我們的長期那最重要的是有原料沒有用其實四季也很重要我們也鼓勵我們自己國內有這樣子的一個生產的一個量能存在好那我想今天這個不管是核電也好SMR也好或者是我們講的這個合一的藥物其實本質都是同一件事情安全不能打折那準備不能做半套然後再來我們的資訊一定要公開好 謝謝"},{"start":6437.778,"end":6454.287,"text":"謝謝國務卿委員下一位陳秀寶委員謝主席請和安會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":6462.233,"end":6488.641,"text":"主委好我也好首先想先請教主委關於我們核能發電未來走向的相關的議題目前我們在新聞上看到日本首相高市長苗在去年他就提出未來他們重點投資17個戰略領域其中是包括了合龍河而且他們也已經很明確的有一個具體的時間表"},{"start":6490.021,"end":6511.048,"text":"他們預估在2030年前要證實核融核發電的可能性目前日本也已經進行超過20萬次相關的實驗我想請教主委 核安會目前有沒有在進行相關核融核的基礎研究這方面國研院有 已經開始做了 詳細請國研院回答"},{"start":6515.179,"end":6540.139,"text":"國人院在兩年前三年前就已經成立FOST就是台灣的第一個托克馬克的荷龍河的一個電漿研究的一個專制那去年年底已經完成初步的建置要經過一年的測試就能夠達到一個做科學研究的一個設施這是國內百分之"},{"start":6540.879,"end":6561.249,"text":"對於核融核相關研究的基礎設計我們是已經有在做了那我想請教主委您這邊是不是也會建議行政院我們參考日本因為這個核融核發電它沒有鈾廢料沒有核廢料的問題而受到國際間的青睞那我們會不會將核融核技術也列入我們重點發展的技術"},{"start":6562.35,"end":6577.245,"text":"報告委員 事實上日本他是寫2030年代他的意思是2030的末期 接近2040可是我們看最近德國宣稱他預估是2060 合龍河才有機會有機會而已 包括英國"},{"start":6582.871,"end":6605.719,"text":"國家的一個研究機構也是認為要205年以後但是日本這個目前我們由科學的來看它有幾個關卡第一個是它的材料需要一億度的高溫要克服這個工程上非常難以實踐第二個它的理論從60年來就是對托克馬克這一型的理論物理的理論都沒辦法有突破所以整個這兩個大卡關"},{"start":6607.7,"end":6631.92,"text":"使得全球的核融合恐怕在205年前難以達到能夠提供低度穩定的長期穩定那其實由您的回答我們也可以了解到世界各國其實對核融合都非常的重視如同剛才本席說的因為它沒有誘廢掉核廢掉的問題所以世界各國都競相的想要來突破這個技術那我國是不是也會把它列為我們重點發展的"},{"start":6633.841,"end":6660.477,"text":"這個部分我想我們主要是培訓合龍河方面尤其電槍物理方面這個Plasma的人才因為世界上以歐洲的這個TIER就是合龍河的專制他投入了已經兩兆元但是發電還是遙遙無期要等2015年才有2055年才有所以我們現在專注在人才的培育是人才培育還有一些這個基本設施的維護跟國際"},{"start":6661.537,"end":6670.022,"text":"研究的話能夠接軌萬一哪一天有機會能夠三轉我們又能夠趕上這個所以我們雖然說我們在這邊的投入並沒有像國際間那麼快速或者那麼多但是其實我們還是有在專注在這一塊我們也沒有就是放鬆這個腳步啦好那我想請教那國研委員有說日前有說我們已經觸碰盤底的三種SMR的技術"},{"start":6688.132,"end":6709.987,"text":"那確認SMR商用商品這個商轉沒有問題之後呢國外授權了我們國內最快在2035年可以發出第一度的SMR的電力那所以說以這個SMR跟合融合這個部分呢我們是有並行的在做只是說現在SMR的進展是比較快也比較明顯是嗎"},{"start":6710.928,"end":6724.973,"text":"是SMR是核分裂所以核分裂在於1940年代就成功所以在技術上技術上完全可行比較容易五年以後應該就有這三種跟傳統的都會有商用反應器出來好 謝謝"},{"start":6726.894,"end":6752.346,"text":"那這邊我還是要提醒核安會因為國際間現在認為說既然他們認為核龍核是有可以發展的就是是可行性高的那我們還是要關注國際的趨勢雖然說我們現在基礎的有建制了但是後面的腳步我們也不能落後因為我們還是在我們自己的國家之內我們要去評估怎樣的發電方式對我們國家是最有利的好那接下來我想請教"},{"start":6754.067,"end":6770.935,"text":"我們在核能設施處理及核災應變的處置過程之中機器人成為不可或缺的重要工具但是目前我們這個機器人還是有賴有線連接的操作模式而且很容易受到現場輻射的影響對這些相關的內部的半導體元件會造成嚴重的損壞那電燃也可能因為有纏繞或斷裂這種問題"},{"start":6778.899,"end":6803.656,"text":"那日本呢他們有投入研發具這個高度抗輻射能力的這個Wi-Fi的接收晶片而且目前他們已經研發成功了在核事故這個核能的處理現場這個無線操作會帶來一個很大的進展那主委我想請教何安慧目前我們有沒有在進行相關就是提升晶片抗輻射能力的這個相關的研究誰可以回答這個問題"},{"start":6807.297,"end":6829.359,"text":"報告委員我們現在在我們的科研計畫裡面我們有這個像用在太空抗輻射的晶片的相關研究我們是有的那是太空抗輻射的這個部分那對於我剛提到的這個在核設施核在應變的相關的機器的應用我們也同樣有這樣的技術在並行研究嗎"},{"start":6830.2,"end":6842.161,"text":"是,我們在Mutual Fund就是我們跟國科會的一個聯合的一個科學研究計畫裡面我們有針對這個機器人我想這個委員提的非常好"},{"start":6844.171,"end":6860.825,"text":"那邊的機器人研究跟我們這邊抗輻射晶片的機器人的研究是不是可以把它combine起來像是日本的這些我們在核災是不是可以應用我想這在未來我們也會投入這一塊來因為其實就像您剛剛回答的"},{"start":6861.946,"end":6887.752,"text":"那如果它是Each同工之妙就是說我們有這樣子的設施那其實可以用在不管是我們太空的產業或是在我們相關的核能設備因為我們現在也有核電廠正在處理的階段那如果有這樣子的抗輻射機器人可以投入現場我想對於相關人員的這些風險會更低更安全"},{"start":6888.692,"end":6917.208,"text":"你們有沒有預計可以什麼時候來投入相關的這樣的研製這部分非常謝謝委員的提點那是不是容我們在整個完整的仔細研究因為像現在我們的輻射應變方面那這個部分我希望何安慧你們就有這一點就是這個抗輻射機器實際運用的時程你們來做一個規劃那如果有進展的時候請你將一份報告給我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":6918.368,"end":6945.07,"text":"是 沒問題好那接下來我想要來請教主委關於合工人才的狀況因為剛才我們講不管是合融合的部分SMR的部分還是剛才講這個抗輻射機器人這個研究那這些都需要相關的人才合工人才那我想沒有這些基本的合工人才我們未來相關的研究都會受到延擋我想主委您也是認同這樣子的是的"},{"start":6945.39,"end":6972.876,"text":"那在上次的業務報告的時候有很多委員關心我國合工人才培養的問題那再加上說國際間像現在剛剛提到的各種發電的技術方式都有新的進展那我們如果要參與或了解相關國際的進度要跟著上腳步我們在合工合能相關的人才都是非常的必要非常的重要我想請教主委我們有沒有相關的計畫或合作的方式來進一步培養這些人才"},{"start":6973.775,"end":6998.321,"text":"有的除了我们向教育部升级三位奖学金每年三位去美国研读合共博士之外我们国研院这方面也有做很多这方面的跟国外的实验室跟大学的一些合作计划而且我们也替"},{"start":6999.588,"end":7016.641,"text":"比如说国务院和清华大学争取很多研究经费让他多收一些研究生及做一些研究计划让更多的学生能够加入这个合共的行列这方面各方面我们都尽量的努力来争取"},{"start":7017.521,"end":7035.907,"text":"所以主委您也是非常的用心在我們人才的培育這一塊但是我也希望說除了我們很用心的我們讓這些人才有深造有進修的機會之外呢他們到國外去進修也好還是說我們從國外吸收這些人才進來國內也好"},{"start":7037.287,"end":7059.015,"text":"就希望說我們有更好的條件那有更讓他們可以發揮的空間因為這個我們相關的合共發展如果我們培育人才結果他後來是往國外去發展的是一個很大的損失所以除了說我們去培育他之外我們要有怎樣的制度有怎樣的環境讓他們可以留在我們國內我想這是非常重要主委您的看法呢"},{"start":7059.475,"end":7075.957,"text":"是的 我们要有机制吸引合共人才到台湾工作或卜下合共人才这方面我们各方各面我们都有做这方面的工作那这个我希望说你们可以给我一份你们对于相关培育人才的报告给我办公室可以吗"},{"start":7076.977,"end":7101.523,"text":"我再跟主席借一點點時間喔接下來我想請教關於我們核醫藥的國家隊的問題喔我國的核醫藥呢八成以上是來自進口但因為缺乏這個藥品的韌性而且因為核醫藥呢它的藥品的特性它是沒辦法囤藥它的百酸期很短它沒辦法囤藥我們也常常因為受到國外一些外在因素的影響呢所以"},{"start":7102.223,"end":7120.836,"text":"我們一些合一藥我們必須要有自己有辦法自產自製那剛才我有聽到你們的回答其他委員就說我們將來我們在新的這些設施這個70mEV迴旋加速器如果建制完成我們的合一藥品會有7成以上是可以自製是這樣嗎"},{"start":7122.256,"end":7150.931,"text":"包委員是現在某些藥物啦像加67我們已經百分之百那投二年齡新基銜以下現在是四成左右那明年70MV會今年年底完成建制四年的建制明年開始測試所以明年以後可以提高應該可以提高到七成到八成那我還是要請教喔未來我們相關的核醫藥自產自製我們最急需的是什麼除了設備我們的人才呢"},{"start":7154.401,"end":7179.632,"text":"報告委員 人才方面我們現在同位訴所 相關的人才已經有接近差不多100位的同仁 他們都是35年前第一台30MV很多都是35年第一台30MV開始建置完成 運轉的時候就已經在那一邊 還有一些同仁是這樣那最近幾年我們也極力招募 今年我們也開放10個區 就給合一藥物"},{"start":7180.472,"end":7209.369,"text":"针对这个国家药物团队这个所需要的不管是生物科技或者是药学或者是生命科学的这一方面的人才所以我们已经有针对未来我们核医药的发展所需要的人才在做培训以及招募是是是那我这边再问你刚才我们提到了关于这个太空元件的抗辐射这个我们相关的这些太空中心跟核安会的合作对于太空元件抗晶片这个晶片抗辐射的检测"},{"start":7210.349,"end":7228.148,"text":"這個部分這個機制我們是由我們這邊主動還是說你們怎樣的一個合作是我們對於這個低軌道衛星還有車輛的這個晶片我們長期跟國內一些半導體廠都把晶片送來我們這邊做測試這是從三年前就開始先用32V這個是"},{"start":7230.711,"end":7252.373,"text":"10到30個NVV將來70個NVV完成以後可以低軌道衛星可以擴散到30到70個NVV所以這個都已經有規劃而且現在國內一些晶片的大廠都有送過分他們所需要原來要去國外測試的晶片先送來我們這裡做測試目前已經大概進行三年以上"},{"start":7252.947,"end":7276.587,"text":"好謝謝最後本席還是要強調核安不只是只有發電的時候我們要去顧慮到其實在醫藥上在醫學上醫療上都非常的重要所以希望說核安會跟其他的部門也要相應的就是持續的合作然後繼續來精進我們要顧好核安才能保護我們民眾的安全以上謝謝"},{"start":7281.523,"end":7293.396,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請林怡瑾委員質詢謝主席 有請陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":7301.108,"end":7317.204,"text":"主委好委員好我想針對河山廠這個再運轉的這個計畫實施審查這個月8月已經完成了程序的審查那接下來就是要邀請專家學者跟河南會你們內部的同仁來進行所謂的專案的這個"},{"start":7321.028,"end":7340.703,"text":"審查的團隊來組成然後依照法規跟參考國際的做法來進行嚴格的技術審查也就是說我們要進入實施審查的部分那下週二好像也是要在恆春來辦理地方的說明會來廣納在地的意見"},{"start":7342.064,"end":7368.68,"text":"據瞭解這次台電送和安會的這個核生產債務轉計畫內容很龐大包括這個本文就有300多頁總的頁數也有將近700頁不過台電有說會密集追蹤和安會的進度希望能縮短溝通的行政時程我想請教主委什麼叫縮短溝通的行政"},{"start":7369.9,"end":7396.397,"text":"時程就是說核能的安全有寬鬆跟趕進度的空間嗎主委核安會是秉持核管法做嚴格的審查一定是按部就班按進度進行所以台電說什麼會希望縮短溝通的行政時程這個就你沒有在理他就對了就是按照按部就班按照核能安全嚴密的審查 對吧"},{"start":7397.938,"end":7418.965,"text":"好 那本席過去就一再強調核能不只是技術的問題它牽涉到全民的信任還有對國家未來能源發展的願景還有後代子孫怎麼不必須負擔這些那麼高昂的這個核廢料的處置成本喔4月28號你們要去恆春舉辦的地方說明會"},{"start":7421.158,"end":7441.677,"text":"本席就要請教主委就在位處這個地震帶有這個核電廠那它深受影響的就只有所謂的在地恆春的居民嗎那台灣我們就是說我們真的一定要到所謂的這個因為其實核三廠它年限已經到期"},{"start":7442.558,"end":7449.121,"text":"他運轉了40年那已經也除役了那你要讓他繼續運轉這件事情難道只是所謂的地方議題嗎他不是全國的議題嗎那所以如果說就民意 因為我們去地方是要探尋民意嘛那如果說就"},{"start":7459.685,"end":7471.75,"text":"你如果認為他是全國的議題那就全國性的民意的部分那你核安會要怎麼樣去做面對跟採納這是第一個問題第二個問題是那如果台灣我們要繼續運轉這個核電廠那"},{"start":7475.231,"end":7500.993,"text":"我們將受 我認為將受影響的國人有受到影響的國人 就叫在地居民嘛所謂在地不是核餐廠位居的那個地方而已因為我們很清楚知道嘛他有恆春活動斷層帶從下方通過那反映如下方他的過去嚴懲受擠壓容企的所謂的被邪構造"},{"start":7501.533,"end":7524.458,"text":"也就是說這個岩層它受到擠壓石拱起來的結構這表示地底下它曾經發生過變形的作用那日本福島核災發生的時候日本政府是建議要疏散30公里的居民那美國是撤僑80公里所以我們的核酸場半徑就足足有80公里那涵蓋 屏東縣"},{"start":7527.273,"end":7543.693,"text":"台東縣還有高雄市所以請教主委如果這個大約要386萬人口在發生事故的時候那你要怎麼樣負責他的這個撤離跟安置兩個問題主委我請林組長回答"},{"start":7547.311,"end":7561.452,"text":"報告委員就是針對如果發生核子事故因為以目前就是有的案例會知道因為核子事故它有一個方向性因為主要對於場外的居民來說主要是確保就是希望不要受到輻射程的影響"},{"start":7562.553,"end":7580.348,"text":"因為輻射程它如果飄出來的時候是會隨著就是大氣所以它會有一個方向性因為隨著這個氣流的方向風向的部分那所以一般在做緊急應變和只是過了緊急應變的時候第一步都會先請民眾在做室內的演繹"},{"start":7581.269,"end":7608.665,"text":"那接著就會看在沒有輻射程飄散出來的時候呢那才做這個緊急的一個疏散那疏散因為如剛剛委員所關心的像這個撤離安置是非常重要的事情那在整個過程中也必須都要確保撤離安置民眾的一個安全所以在事前的準備以及這個疏散的過程也都是會分階段分時序的來進行"},{"start":7609.805,"end":7629.723,"text":"對 所以也一定不只恆春也不只屏東縣嘛應該是就是說我剛剛提的 你的80公里 半徑80公里 方圓半徑80公里你是涵蓋到台東縣還有高雄市啦所以你的撤離安置計畫或者整個的應該是也包括這些縣市吧"},{"start":7630.504,"end":7647.404,"text":"目前因為我們除了地方政府有核子事故的緊急應變計畫之外那另外也會災防法裡面也有整個就是全國的一個緊急應變的計畫所以各地方政府他們都會互相的去做支援"},{"start":7648.405,"end":7673.851,"text":"那剛剛提到全國嘛我剛剛一開始的第一個問題就是說這個不單純只是一個地方議題吧它應該也是全國議題不然你為什麼要通告各縣市政府那如果是全國的議題的話那面對這次的民意的這個採納那是不是不能只在恆春辦說明會而已不能只在恆春廣納民意而已你是不是還要有全國性的這個民意的採納的過程"},{"start":7678.074,"end":7705.066,"text":"這次說明會我們有現場直播而且任何人都可以在委員會的網站上提出意見我們對所有問題我們都一定會一一答覆所以你是實質的說明會在恆春舉辦可是你是用直播的方式所以全國人民只要對這個事情有一些意見或想法都可以通過你的網站跟您反映"},{"start":7705.846,"end":7720.235,"text":"那你其實可以正式的開所謂的全國性的這個直播的說明會啊可以考慮看看那個就是針對全國性的當然啦那是在地可以直接讓居民可以去了好"},{"start":7721.557,"end":7738.893,"text":"剛討論到的都還是核能安全的問題那接下來跟主委討論到的是幾乎沒有辦法解決的核廢料問題我們光是這個低階核廢料到現在都測不出藍雨那我們到底有多少的本錢說要處理更所謂的更高階的核廢料"},{"start":7739.634,"end":7761.431,"text":"所以主委 你很清楚啊 這個最終的處置的場址啦要兼顧所謂的地層的那個 兼顧的穩定又沒有地下水 又不滲水這個條件台灣找到這種地點嗎 即便那裡找到啦最大的挑戰是 那當地的居民會同意這樣的一個高階這個核廢料會伴隨終生嗎"},{"start":7765.594,"end":7773.843,"text":"而且我們又還沒有通過所謂的高放射廢棄物處置條例的立法所以在這個情況之下"},{"start":7774.98,"end":7796.177,"text":"我要請教主委你這樣的話這些核廢我們如果繼續運轉那這些核廢的成本是要轉嫁給未來的世代嗎你認為呢經濟部已經成立了專案辦公室處理這方面的問題而且我們有核後端基金來支付有關的經費"},{"start":7799.98,"end":7805.764,"text":"這點恐怕有經濟部人回答會適合一點我們說到經費台電跟經濟部去年6月初有去芬蘭考察全球首座深層地質核廢料的處理廠叫安克羅這次的參訪"},{"start":7820.834,"end":7839.603,"text":"芬蘭這個設計 芬蘭有答應說要把這個技術輸入給我們台電所以第一步的工程技術可能可以克服我想請教主委說我們複製這個安克羅模式是未來我們高階核廢的處置方向嗎 是嗎"},{"start":7842.91,"end":7855.107,"text":"這個請陳主席來回答好 來來報告委員目前台電公司所提的處置概念其實是跟瑞典還有芬蘭是相近的就是剛才委員提到這個Ok 好"},{"start":7857.85,"end":7873.432,"text":"今年安克羅這個要試營運那芬蘭是從1983年起花了17年的時間做調查啦溝通啦才敲定了長職然後又花了20年好不容易在今年要試營運所以"},{"start":7875.094,"end":7890.843,"text":"加上最初一開始的研究時間我想啦芬蘭恐怕是花了半世紀的時間人力物力的投入才實現了所謂的永久儲置場的建設那光是我們說費用就耗費了10億歐元差不多台幣370億那後續我們還有所謂的百年運作還有最終的封存還有40歐億元約台幣差不多1400多億"},{"start":7901.229,"end":7924.178,"text":"好那這些我看也不是結束因為我們要真正喔這個最終就是真正要去除這個高階核廢料對環境的威脅所需的時間可能還要數十萬年吧這我們我都活不了那麼久所以我們很難預估未來地球是怎麼樣樣貌好那所以芬蘭的科學家跟研究人員其實他一直"},{"start":7924.878,"end":7945.87,"text":"就是在興建這個核廢料這個最終處置場的時候他其實有把戰爭啊極端氣候啊甚至未來人類的好奇心都評估在內那用盡各種方法要這個確保核廢料這個最終處置場不會被開啟或者被破壞那主委如果我們把這些成本都算進去那核電真的便宜嗎"},{"start":7949.037,"end":7972.678,"text":"跟委員報告一下台電公司的台電公司經濟部的後端基金裡面大概有1800億是用來處置高方廢棄物就是這個計畫那剛才委員所提到這些概念其實它是一個被動式安全也是目前我們採用的就是我們不主動依賴人類的監管而是將來它處置後它能夠被動達到安全就要花那麼多錢嗎"},{"start":7974.26,"end":7991.776,"text":"對 不過目前台電也是有這樣的策略有這樣的做法 這就是核能發電它必須面對的成本你不能光核電廠這樣就是你要看後面的好 那我們再花30秒我們在討論今天的主題 因此能法"},{"start":7992.637,"end":8019.682,"text":"因為上次我詢問過主委那主委說現在並沒有這個檢討修正的必要因為他50年沒有修了那你說目前執行上也沒有致癌難行喔那不過你說會與時俱進的檢討所以我想要請教主委除了這次提出的修法就是組織名稱的這個修正以外那你認為還有什麼哪裡有進一步需要修正的地方"},{"start":8020.936,"end":8046.451,"text":"目前对于原子能法的修法的草案呢合同会已经规划了原子能法修法草案原则上仍朝基本法方向修正并明确组织原子能安全管制原子能科学与技术的研究发展奖励免税及赔偿以及负责等"},{"start":8047.071,"end":8070.411,"text":"五章共二十七條所以你們已經有草案了對 已經目前已經在嚴密之中好好 就是會大修然後已經有一些復案就對了對好 那就期待您的復案出來那未來相關的問題我們審查法案的時候再來討論好 謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝林議警委員質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":8088.627,"end":8101.521,"text":"有請葛瑜君委員好 謝謝主席有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":8109.832,"end":8133.045,"text":"謝謝我們最專業的主委這個河岸會這次專報為了我國海域放射性物質監測執行現況以及未來因應的作為本席看了一下過去的相關記錄從結果來看索性都在可以控制的範圍裡面沒有嚴重超標的情況然而在檢測的次數跟預算上本席是有一些疑問"},{"start":8134.525,"end":8159.415,"text":"這張圖表是近年這個生物實驗室的這個檢測量以及預決算數可以看到這三年檢測的件數跟花費的金額以國研院的數據來看可以看到這三年檢測的件數大概是六七百件前兩年平均大概是690那今年的目標呢756件只多了66件9.5%的增加跟平均比起來"},{"start":8159.995,"end":8185.047,"text":"但前兩年的預算平均下來每年是652萬那今年卻大幅增加到1424萬是218%的提升足足兩倍有餘所以只多檢測了9.5%相對於平均可是預算卻增加了兩倍218%本席不是反對要增加檢測的預算但是河南會如果評估今年的風險特別高"},{"start":8185.447,"end":8208.022,"text":"要增加次數當然沒問題但現在的情況看起來會讓人有點不是很確定說事情沒有多做那麼多但是錢卻多拿那麼多想請問一下主委今年這樣子的預算大幅增加減身目標值卻比去年只平均增加一滴滴到底是什麼原因這方面我們請張組長回答好了是 簡短回答"},{"start":8209.162,"end":8229.069,"text":"報告委員因為生物穿我們是採兩個階段因為穿的性質它會有無積穿跟有積穿那兩個的一個檢測方法是不一樣的那我們現在是為了檢測的實效性所以我們第一階段是用檢測無積穿如果無積穿有異常的我們就會進一步檢測因為整個來講"},{"start":8231.69,"end":8251.219,"text":"有那個有機穿的只有在國園院所以國園院的一個預算會比較多增加了幾件有機穿的部分增加了幾件目前我們的有機穿過去多少件然後現在增加了多少件量倍嗎應該是說過去我們的一個檢測無機穿大概都是在標準的一個範圍您是說哪一個比較高"},{"start":8254.921,"end":8270.577,"text":"有無積穿是第一階段比較好測有積穿的價格比較高有積穿所以我現在問的是有積穿的之前的件數跟你現在編的預算多兩倍的件數有沒有多兩倍檢測的次數因為我們現在是在有積穿是在"},{"start":8276.923,"end":8291.5,"text":"做一些養殖試驗然後生整個身體的單件我知道謝謝柯普很棒但我們在盯我們是要監督啦所以一些細節麻煩會後提供給我們不然這個預算我們看起來會我們尊重但是目前不理解好不好我想"},{"start":8291.82,"end":8313.319,"text":"旁邊有一些官員也有點搖頭所以我想我們來確認一下那我也想說這個我們真的是很支持核安會預算從一開始第一天來到這裡就是這樣那本席上次有跟主委提到就是SMR的研究經費不足那至今這個我們還在幫你們爭取他說現在只有國園院一億元的計畫"},{"start":8315.32,"end":8335.977,"text":"我想主委這麼專業一定知道美國是多少億?1000億法國是多少億?360億韓國67億即便我們還幫你們加上了國科會審查當中的中長程計劃116到119也才10億平均一年下來之後可能再變成2.5億完全遠遠落後國巨我們剛看到的是韓國67 法國360"},{"start":8338.584,"end":8362.032,"text":"美國1000 那我們不要去比美國好了 加大業大我們比韓國可以吧 67億啊請問主委 這些國家是傻子嗎 還是他們遇到騙子還是說台灣未來不需要電 主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下就是說我們現在正在做明年預算 概算嘛請問主委 明年在SMR到底要編列多少"},{"start":8364.772,"end":8387.432,"text":"我們今年是1億,明年是4年,1加4年的計畫,加上SMR,加上Micro Reactor,就是MMR所以這個計畫裡面編了10億,希望一年平均有2.5億的預算能夠進來但是國科還在審查中,不見得能夠完全照這個數目核給我們現在2.5億都不一定全能夠拿到"},{"start":8388.493,"end":8408.411,"text":"那這個民眾聽了很緊張啊覺得說這個預算的編列是部會的職權行政院有機會要執行我們的總統相關的方向結果我們現在一年用2.5億要來打發賴總統的新式核能的計畫我想這樣我們是不是有點對不起他的說法"},{"start":8410.584,"end":8430.004,"text":"我們是不是幫國客會幫我們核安會支持一下我們也鼓勵說核安會我們能不能再討論一下不然這個比較起來好像台灣不需要電因為我們非常多國外的專家來看覺得台灣是不是不需要電"},{"start":8430.945,"end":8452.535,"text":"但是大家都非常緊張報告委員主要是SMR的時程在國際上尤其是西方世界應該五年以後才有機會可以刪轉所以我們是這個資料是你們提供的喔就是美國是一千億法國三百六十億韓國六十七億我們說人家還很久啦讓人家跑就好了我們晚一點"},{"start":8453.335,"end":8462.265,"text":"這個不是科學研究的邏輯吧那我們所有科學研究國科會所有科學研究都暫停了別人做完了成熟了我們不用投入了我們再來做可以這樣嗎"},{"start":8464.312,"end":8492.249,"text":"同意這樣的說法嗎不同意吧不會同意吧科學跟技術是這樣的說法嗎我們希望維持一個基本的量能啦好好笑不只要基本啦我想台灣的我們台積電的等級我們世界科技的中心我們總統的名字裡面有AI新式核能研發也可以運用AI啊對不對我看你很點頭嘛所以我想這個我們希望一起來努力那我們也希望國科會"},{"start":8493.149,"end":8502.144,"text":"不只要這個要全額通過甚至國會是不是可以再多加支持但是河岸會自己也要多加爭取主委能不能多加爭取"},{"start":8503.695,"end":8525.726,"text":"我們也會盡力好不好 我們一起來努力啦那我想 主委是非常努力啦帶著我不是 但是這個數量的誠意我覺得大家也會覺得沒有凸顯出我們賴總統的決策嘛那這樣我覺得好像賴總統已經講了結果我們的行政機關好像在打發他沒有這個意思吧"},{"start":8529.4,"end":8557.882,"text":"我做球給你們你們要說沒有這個意思還是其實是在打發他我覺得先生方面很支持這方面好 支持我們就多一些好不好那我想我們來看一下不只是我們剛剛提到的啦人才也很重要那河南會近三年人才培育相關的經費我們剛剛已經講了我們賴總統也喊了心事核能在很多場合裡都提到但裡面呢預算竟然還有逐年減少的情況"},{"start":8558.723,"end":8585.805,"text":"哇 我們缺電我們需要更新的技術啊 我們不要去了解它我不只我編列預算跟人家沒辦法比我甚至呢 我科普教育我給你少一點 是怎麼樣讓大家都不要知道有心事核能讓大家都不要知道SMR嗎這樣跟得上國際的做法嗎我想這個希望主委啊該花的錢要花該做的事要做隨著全球各國的狀況我覺得這個我不用放給您看啦 對吧"},{"start":8586.906,"end":8598.712,"text":"八成韓國人挺核能啊目標2028年還要啟用兩座新的日本今年1月20號已經重啟全球最大核電廠2月要正式商轉所以我想"},{"start":8599.691,"end":8619.134,"text":"國安會如果未來評估風險增加或者新的研究要加大大家都會支持啊因為這大家一起努力能源的安全我們的永續這個是跨黨派的這沒有政治的意識責任所以我想主管不要害怕該編的就編好不好可以嗎"},{"start":8620.655,"end":8640.985,"text":"那隨著科技發展我想國際對我們的這個能源重視真的很重要啦民眾都非常希望要有選擇不要只是口號那關於核電重啟的計畫核安會必須審過兩份台電提交的報告是再運轉計畫跟自主安檢報告那上個月底呢台電已經將再運轉的計畫送到核安會那準備的會議也在4月1號召開這個我們看到了"},{"start":8646.347,"end":8662.499,"text":"據本席了解 目前審查委員的意見我們問同仁跟我們說已經收集完畢了可是剛剛有委員問你又說還沒收集到這個羅生門誰說的是真的到底審查委員的意見收集完畢了沒"},{"start":8664.114,"end":8685.928,"text":"跟委員說明我們已經收集 可是我們要彙整我說收集完畢了沒 我這話講得很清楚吧收到了沒收到了 還要再進行彙整那就很清楚 那也許剛剛主委口誤啦那我們不能一個國會有兩個兒安會的說法嘛那請問主委啦 這些意見就是說你們彙整"},{"start":8687.229,"end":8701.26,"text":"收集完畢但還在彙整意見那彙整意見要告知台電嗎那什麼時候打算預計告知總不能一年十年一百年嗎有沒有時間那彙整完之後大概下個禮拜就會正式發案給台電公司"},{"start":8702.02,"end":8718.951,"text":"下個禮拜很好那我想這個時間就是要抓緊那這個流程有可能還要往復但是很可能還是要抓緊那請河安會密切掌握審查過程裡面產生的一些相關的說法不要讓有心人士有操縱跟影響審查的空間"},{"start":8720.552,"end":8748.871,"text":"那除了再運轉計畫還有自主安全報告要繳交因為我們很重視核能安全嘛所以我們有非常完整的這個做法那經濟部表示要最快2027年中才能提交核安會但是我們本來法規辦法都講了三檢項目可以分階段送本席在上次詢答也都跟各位確認過了那主委去年跟本席回答說會跟台電密切溝通啊現在溝通的怎麼樣有沒有收到任何一項報告因為可以分次嘛"},{"start":8749.491,"end":8774.642,"text":"有沒有任何一項報告跟我說明喔到目前為止也只有再運轉計畫那台電公司內部還在進行自主安全檢查所以自主安全報告目前分批送是零啦對不對 零啦那這怎麼推薦進度啊那台電現在是打算多久之後要送一年 一年半 十年 一百年有沒有 他們有沒有意願要分階段送"},{"start":8775.582,"end":8792.179,"text":"目前就我們所了解他們已經開始在進行現在已經一年半很快就過完了啦那我們是提議啦是不是和安會還是要主導一個這樣子的一些會議啦好那主動的積極的去增加互動好不好那不能一直等等"},{"start":8792.739,"end":8808.638,"text":"一年半過完了再來十年半再來一百年我想這不是這樣我們台灣真的很不一樣我們跟各國可能也都不一樣我們要加緊努力上次本席也詢問過主委被降級三級機關有沒有影響上次主委很誠懇的說調圍二級單位對國際交流"},{"start":8812.102,"end":8836.194,"text":"人才培育跨部會整合有幫助這你們的報告裡面寫的寫得非常完整升格以後可以落實國際原子能總署的報告當中提到強化安全管制機關職能之精神這你們寫的我非常感謝你們把這樣的一個狀態提出來那目前人種的同仁也在請人種的同仁好不好請人種的同仁"},{"start":8838.612,"end":8852.395,"text":"那這個先問主委您跟卓院長任總反映過升格的事了嗎目前討論的結果怎麼樣我想所有委員跨黨派都很關心因為這也是您自己的報告內容"},{"start":8853.8,"end":8877.957,"text":"反映過了嗎?這方面我的理解是目前還涉及很多行政院組織法方面的並不是修改一項法律就可以解決所以組織法的事跟卓院長沒有關係就是組織升格沒有關係啦沒提過我希望您提因為我們大家一起來提好不好那任總也在我請問任總對核安會升級二級機關的態度是什麼?"},{"start":8879.778,"end":8898.227,"text":"我想這個文字我不用朗讀給您聽管制機關必須要有足夠的權限還要跨領域相關的才能確保核能安全你不讓他提升成績他沒有辦法確保核能安全我們在這裡所有跨黨派的委員我們都要關心請教任總"},{"start":8899.392,"end":8918.665,"text":"是 報告委員 那個我們人種的部分是因為審查和安慰是在112年的時候改制那改制的過程裡面他其實是雖然是是調整為三級但是他其實是從那個三級的部分變成獨立機關的角色"},{"start":8919.265,"end":8941.97,"text":"所以依照它的相關的法規的授權跟它的專業性的審查不會因為它的層級性而影響到它的專業的提升那現在到底是幾級機關目前就是三級的獨立機關對啊 我在跟你講三級 你說三級獨立機關它的權責就比二級機關更大嗎 更好嗎可以做到它有更多足夠的權限嗎"},{"start":8942.91,"end":8967.27,"text":"報告委員他的權限主要還是來自於法規授權他專業審查的那個能力他有沒有跨部會溝通協調的能力還是有啊他有辦法請台電趕快提交嗎他原則上他是受台電提交來做審查沒關係任總這個同仁我理解大家都很辛苦我希望任總不要去挑戰國際原子能總署的相關報告"},{"start":8968.371,"end":8991.343,"text":"也不要低估我們組委、我們核安會所做出來的報告的茵茵的期盼國人的茵茵期盼不要用這種什麼法規的文字面的東西具體事實就是職能不足啦需要提升那我們運動部就有空間可以提升為什麼核安會沒有所以我想不要去玩文字遊戲希望人總可以好好的思考"},{"start":8991.823,"end":9007.697,"text":"跟賴總統 卓榮泰院長一起表態竟然要重返核能是不是讓核安會重返二級機關這點也希望任總的同仁帶回去專委帶回去跟任市長討論有沒有可以調整的地方一個月內給本席一個回應可以嗎"},{"start":9009.317,"end":9034.956,"text":"是好一個月內那我想另外啦我想這個科技的發展我們就是要進步啦我們也要民主我們也要進步啦那我們剛剛提到的是這個這個這個核安會嘛那不要遇到科技人種好像都在卡我相信不是這樣的意思之前我們也問我們在教育委員會故宮的數位資訊室要升格為數位資訊處任市長也表示很支持啊後來研議說後續會研議的結果怎麼樣了"},{"start":9037.418,"end":9061.03,"text":"可以請回去了解一下在這個月月底前把結果告知本席辦公室可以嗎這個人事長是有同意的啊那個是在業務質詢的時候委員的提出月底前結果告知本席可以嗎我們回去轉達另外在金管會我們現在這個虛擬資產服務法也即將要上路本席的版本在條文中有明定金管會應設專責單位人員人數要依其業務增減來調整"},{"start":9064.992,"end":9086.753,"text":"接下來虛擬資產服務法可能會排審,我真的是希望人種啊,不只是我們剛剛提到的虛擬資產,不只是我們剛剛提到的故宮的這個數位的要轉成處,還有我們最重要的核能的能源的安全,不要因為卡在什麼樣的文字上的原因,一定要提供給核安會足夠的權限,"},{"start":9088.074,"end":9110.928,"text":"專業的能力和財務還有人力支援他才有辦法獨立行使職權嘛你講說他很獨立很棒他沒有人沒有權沒有錢你要叫他怎麼保護我們的核能安全這個同意嗎這個人種的同仁同意嗎沒有錢沒有權沒有人怎麼有辦法保障我們的核能安全這個同意嗎"},{"start":9112.005,"end":9133.285,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":9138.894,"end":9159.266,"text":"是不是徵詢在場的委員讓官員休息五分鐘上個廁所可以嗎因為九點到現在他們還沒上廁所好 那我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9165.73,"end":9166.651,"text":"待會兒就好了"},{"start":9464.244,"end":9481.096,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請葉元之委員進行詢答主席好 麻煩請主委有請主委 謝謝主委好 委員好"},{"start":9491.108,"end":9506.043,"text":"這個昨天因為有一些反核團體去跟總統見面當然他們是不希望重啟核電不過我看有一些與會者他轉述賴總統的話感覺上賴總統是還蠻朝向重啟核電的角度去說啦"},{"start":9506.704,"end":9522.913,"text":"他說因為他考量到電力供應不如預期就是符合社會缺電的擔修還有說核安技術現在比較能夠掌握了然後另外就是AI未來用電大增所以應該要重新思考核電"},{"start":9523.413,"end":9545.847,"text":"其實我看到賴總統願意這樣講我們真的感到很高興因為過去幾年都是在野黨一直在強調說可能會缺電然後應該要重啟核電可能會有空污的問題或者是可能會電價上漲電力的韌性等等但一直因為民進黨就一直反對啦還常常在噴口水啦怎麼核廢料放你家這些最後終於賴總統"},{"start":9547.188,"end":9567.533,"text":"他也願意理性的面對這個重新重啟核電問題我覺得很高興那我相信賴總統這樣一講像包括核安會主委您或其他的政務官就可以更理性的面對這個議題不像以前我記得我們在問核安會主委有關於核電的議題的時候都是左閃右閃就都不敢講"},{"start":9569.134,"end":9586.236,"text":"您的前一任主委那時候問他說到底河南安不安全他說有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全有講跟沒講一樣每個都變語言天才那我想跟這個主委先請教一下賴總統說現在河南技術可以掌握他是指哪一個部分"},{"start":9589.874,"end":9612.726,"text":"我不確定你不確定他講什麼?核安技術是一直在進步之中過去40年他講的是傳統的核電還是新式核電?新式核電是傳統核電因為新式核電它的安全也是逐年都在改進傳統的也是逐年都在改進對,逐年都在改進"},{"start":9613.246,"end":9620.377,"text":"那我想請教一下那您自己的立場呢你是不是贊同賴總統所講的你覺得核電到底對於讓電價穩定有幫助嗎"},{"start":9628.036,"end":9652.682,"text":"看財電公佈資料確實是有幫助有幫助是比較便宜嗎我看到資料上對於電價是有幫助電價可以比較穩定不會一直漲嗎是的甚至於如果未來核電的供應可以比較多的話那電價也可以更低一點沒問題嗎"},{"start":9654.598,"end":9683.071,"text":"這點恐怕台電去發明這個資料比較多由他們來回答比較適合然後再來就是用核電應該好處很多嘛比如說可以降低排碳量嘛對吧因為他們有不需要排碳嘛對吧是然後用電也比較穩定嘛至少比再生能源穩定嘛因為再生能源不是基載的嘛有時候要看天吃飯嘛核電應該是比較穩定嘛對吧核電是可以視為基載基載嘛那既然"},{"start":9684.291,"end":9696.707,"text":"主委你都認為使用核電或者是我們重啟核電有那麼多好處我認為核安會除了被動的監管之外我覺得應該更積極的促成這件事情那現在因為"},{"start":9697.83,"end":9717.218,"text":"台電已經在三月底的時候送出再運轉計畫了那河安會現在正在審嘛 對吧那早上的時候主委你也有講一些你們審的程序啊比如說把意見啊大家先書面審查然後讓他上網公告嘛然後會實際上去看嘛然後還會邀請外部的學者什麼之類的"},{"start":9717.938,"end":9730.003,"text":"那你有提到說因為安全關係沒有辦法加速審查但對於這件事這句話我覺得啦有沒有辦法在符合安全情況之下加速審查這兩個沒有衝突啦"},{"start":9731.37,"end":9756.051,"text":"我舉例來講譬如說你現在是要在五月中的時候開第一次會議嘛審查會議嘛五月中嘛對不對那五月中通常政府機關運作是這樣啦開完會然後可能要台電補報告或什麼什麼會有一個程序對不對其實你可以在每一次跟每一次開會的中間你可以縮短開會的時間"},{"start":9758.581,"end":9782.566,"text":"或者是你在安排會議的時候你可以盡量縮短比如說你請外部專家來開會可能要開好幾次一兩次兩三次大家針對上一次的會議再來討論你可以縮短開會的時間我們行政院有很多其他部會在審查比如說地方提出來的計畫的時候常常開會因為案子很多所以第一次會議跟第二次會議差到半年"},{"start":9783.715,"end":9805.629,"text":"那它其實也不見得是因為這一個案子的問題而是因為案子很多以至於針對某一個案子它排比較久那假設核安會你把核二核三核三的再運轉計畫當作一件事情來做的話你其實可以透過縮短行政流程的方式來加速審查的時間那主委你同意嗎"},{"start":9806.556,"end":9834.888,"text":"所以核安會它的效益方面一直都很注視而且我們很有信心的說我們核安是很有效率的很有效率所以我覺得盡快啦好不好就針對剛剛大家也講了嘛核電現在重啟的話好處這麼多總統也有顧慮啊電力供應不如預期啊那核安會就不要被動的好像台電有資料來你就看一看再排會議其實你們可以多跟台電合作"},{"start":9836.091,"end":9864.802,"text":"去跟他講說趕快大家一起來促成讓合二合三重啟這件事情啦我意思是這樣啦不知道主委可以嗎合二合三的溝通是非常順暢順暢是順暢啦順暢是比較不會吵架我是說叫你積極的跟他說趕快補資料啊你缺什麼甚至於說不要文件來了這樣退啊有的時候大家可以一起講說你有什麼事情怎麼做可能會更快一點站在協助的角度去跟他講嘛"},{"start":9866.366,"end":9880.339,"text":"對那這樣子可能那個進程可以再縮短啦好然後再來就是你們現在4月28號要去恆春舉辦地方說明會對吧對主委您不會去嘛對不對我沒有去那因為之前"},{"start":9881.34,"end":9901.242,"text":"就是民進黨一直在講非核家園就把核都妖魔化了所以現在有非常多的人都反核啦那還有就是有些民進黨立委還是依然反核譬如說像屏東在地立委莊瑞雄就反核嘛他就是說核三已經為台灣貢獻四十年放了他的故鄉啦因為重啟核三"},{"start":9901.983,"end":9928.291,"text":"就好像打開潘朵拉的盒子啦反正就是反對然後譬如說像現在在選新北市長的舒巧惠也都是一直呼籲啦在叫大家拒絕重啟河山所以我是提醒河安惠啦你去開說明會的時候可能還是會依然遇到非常多反對聲音那你有預期你們準備的計畫或者是你要去跟地方怎麼溝通的你的重點是什麼提點溝舒巧惠的好了"},{"start":9929.712,"end":9946.664,"text":"跟委員說明主要還是針對台電公司先提出來的再運轉計畫這部分那包括台電公司再運轉計畫整個的規劃那也會說明河岸會自己本身針對再運轉計畫的審查規劃規劃你們的規劃對譬如說是什麼譬如說因為我們是依法跟有審查導者那依照再運轉計畫的審查導者審查的重點擺在哪裡"},{"start":9957.091,"end":9980.572,"text":"那讓民眾也知道說會裡面的關心的點跟外部委員都會介入來加入所以你們是希望讓在地的民眾知道說在河岸這一塊你們一定會把關你們的審查是非常嚴謹的然後如果在地的民眾有提出一些疑慮比如說哪個部分他覺得你們沒有做好你們會積極跟他們回應就是你們還是會站在把關的角度"},{"start":9981.512,"end":10004.546,"text":"就提醒你們可能會遇到剛剛一些狀況然後另外因為那個主委你之前也有提過你說因為非核家園的關係所以讓我們的核工人才流失所以現在應該要積極的回聘跟培訓那我們現在根據台電的說法因為有關於核電廠的人才是一直還是保留著"},{"start":10005.006,"end":10015.665,"text":"並沒有因為說核二核三現在沒有在運轉就把他們辭退或什麼都仍然保有但有一個重點就是欲缺不補啦所以他還是有可能會造成一定人才的流失"},{"start":10016.931,"end":10038.828,"text":"那這個部分我有看到這個河安會好像也有跟教育部去去申請就是留學的補助的名額但我覺得那個名額有點好像太少了我們來看一下像這個爭取這個名額是根據賴總統五大信賴產業的這樣的一個計畫去申請的可是像其他這個是五大信賴產業其他產業"},{"start":10041.769,"end":10069.119,"text":"申請人才的名額就比較多比如說像有關AI的你就可能跟他申請10個10個留學國家的公費補助的名額然後像資通訊也是10個那半導體5個可是呢核子工程相關的就只有3個那核子工程相關其實核子工程它還包括不是只有完全是核能安全還有核能研發比如說核融合技術核能系統等等"},{"start":10070.43,"end":10095.975,"text":"那你以這樣子來講主委你認為我們的河工人才夠嗎這個這個留學的名額過去十年河工這個學名是零了對就零啊你有講到嗎因為之前非核嘛所以就斷層啊現在只剩下三個當然我們留學的管道不只是公費留學這個地方還有個人設計獎人金還有"},{"start":10098.223,"end":10127.644,"text":"以前台電曾經有台電獎學金還有其他的單位也送人出國所以不單是公費留學這條路而已出國留學當然有很多條路但我們就這條路來看人數就比較少啊所以你認為說除了這個之外其他的台電獎學金或是自費的其他加一加現在人是夠的是不是"},{"start":10130.434,"end":10158.441,"text":"我們只能繼續努力吧希望創造條件讓大家願意走上這個領域所以這個是教育部核定你的名額是不是教育部核定名額那你當初申請幾位我就申請三位所以你申請就比較少啊你不是有設限嗎我們也逐步增加啦從0到3已經很大的跳躍了那為什麼你當初只有申請三個"},{"start":10161.057,"end":10187.167,"text":"不是 你不能跟之前比嘛因為之前就非核家園嘛現在要重啟核電了嘛而且還有新式核能啊你不能跟以前非核家園的時代比啊政府政策也轉彎了嘛我們會逐步增加啦會逐步增加好 謝謝謝謝葉遠之委員的詢答下一位委員"},{"start":10190.547,"end":10201.384,"text":"吳士雅委員好謝謝主席有請主委有請主委也請國務院高院長"},{"start":10205.623,"end":10224.981,"text":"好大家辛苦时间宝贵直接就扣合着主题今天的专报是寒川废水的监测那事实上我认为我们扩大海域的检测是all in one除了寒川废水之外还有大家都关心的中国沿岸的核电厂的排放物那我今天是来验收的啦"},{"start":10225.501,"end":10243.6,"text":"从2019年到我离开教育文化委员会应该是2024年我八度的质询日本的寒川废水我也是立法院第一位关心的委员那我当时的四个方向的倡议就是要扩大台日合作在现有的MOU的基础上"},{"start":10244.341,"end":10264.544,"text":"第二个我们一定要组成跨部会因应的平台第三我们要来跟IAEA国际原子能总署合作扩大国际的参与一起来监测最后一个呢台湾要在这个事件上做出科研的贡献这是我的四大主张那我来逐步的来验收下一页"},{"start":10265.385,"end":10280.884,"text":"第一個就是強化檢測的量能喔當時呢我在質詢的時候台灣的生物穿分析實驗室只有國園院自己一間然後現在加了兩間就和安會自己有一個然後高雄市衛生局有一個就一間變三間檢測的量能從"},{"start":10283.487,"end":10301.298,"text":"每年本來500件一年現在可以檢測到2000件一年我的問題有兩個第一個這個因為高雄然後河安會然後這個國園院國園院這個地域不均的問題還有它終極的量能是不是已經足夠兩個問題快速回答"},{"start":10304.096,"end":10329.682,"text":"包括委員在這邊我們就是有考慮一些漁獲的一個捕獲其實集中在一個南部所以在輻射偵測中心還有我們的高雄可以就近那目前的一個2000件的檢測量連就那個食藥署跟農業部那個漁業署的一個採樣在這部分都是目前都OK所以暫時就三接沒有再進一步去擴充的必要"},{"start":10330.422,"end":10358.648,"text":"目前好那没关系我们持续看实际的需求滚动式的检讨下一页那我这里有两个数据一个是今天您的报告里头的这个河岸会的历年海域样本分析件数统计总计出来其实我帮你算了是18385检测件次那我另外在我们的仪表板就是跨部会的辐射检测的仪表板统计出来的件数是29万多也就是将近30万"},{"start":10360.228,"end":10368.518,"text":"那我是不太清楚兩個統計的數字是為什麼有這個落差可能一個是減次一個是減數應該是這樣造成數字的不同是不是這樣子"},{"start":10372.97,"end":10378.615,"text":"報告委員因為我們當初因日本排放川水我們有成立了那個應對計畫然後跨部會那時候我們就是利用這樣來去做年度的監測計畫所以在圖表那個吧裡頭我們現在每年大概是4900多4800多件"},{"start":10393.911,"end":10414.684,"text":"但是因為在衛福部的進口食品的邊境查驗因為它是從也都算進來在我們的應對計畫因為它已經投入資源了有經費了所以把它列進來好那我知道但無論是一千一萬八千檢測件數或是二十九萬的監測件數都是零件不合格"},{"start":10415.504,"end":10434.513,"text":"是的 换言之我们暂时可以解除警报了给国人安心对不对我们长期的监控而且具体的科学化的检测都在做零件不合格大家可以相对放心解除一点点警报但是持续追踪持续监测持续的科研是我们的立场好 下一页"},{"start":10435.333,"end":10449.951,"text":"第三個驗收就是我們要善用跟台日既有的核能管制資訊交流MOU然後來爭取赴日第一個我當初的要求是第一手要拿到資訊第二個我們甚至要能夠籌組專家團去做而我累積追蹤到現在"},{"start":10454.076,"end":10482.301,"text":"你们也都有照本席的建议要求至少完成了六次复日实地的访查而不是只依赖他们提供的资讯第二个呢我们定期的视讯会议二十几次持续都在做这个部分我也给你们肯定好吗这个也是验收通过持续进行下一页那最后就是这个当初在说这个寒川沸水大家搞得很恐慌但事实上呢我们反而遗漏了"},{"start":10483.101,"end":10504.873,"text":"在离我们最近的台湾海峡这一侧因为寒川沸水会往花莲那一边因为那个潮汐那个黑潮的关系所以说在我们大台湾跟中国大陆沿海核电厂分布这么的密集反而对于中国沿岸核电厂排放物对台湾的影响是更严重的"},{"start":10505.453,"end":10522.788,"text":"我一直在提出這個警訊跟要求那solution是什麼呢我看到你們要提出一個116年到119年跨部會的國家海域放射性物質污染監控任性網就可以一件理由all in one既可以監測輔導寒川廢水又可以更來"},{"start":10530.133,"end":10557.326,"text":"補強中國沿岸核電廠放射性物質排放是不是這個計畫這個任性網就在做這個事是的 如委員所述那預算呢那我們現在在爭取那期望的一個總預算是大概是一個6億不過省政院這邊還在審議中所以說現在要審很遺憾了現在才在審去年要審的預算那現在在編明年的概算會編入明年的嗎"},{"start":10558.466,"end":10576.913,"text":"我们来争取全力争取好吗不能再等好吗我们也会一起来跟行政部门来要求跟倡议我希望今年明年再审审查明年预算的时候我们可以看到这一笔好吗我们会跨党派来支持好继续加油下一个电收"},{"start":10578.674,"end":10584.844,"text":"這裡國研院要請教日本當初東京電力公司他是針對不同的魚種進行這個養殖的這個實驗比木魚鮑魚海藻等等所以說他除了監測海流之外也做了這種"},{"start":10594.257,"end":10619.984,"text":"養殖的實驗證實用川水去養殖就對了那證實結果川並不會於生物體內累積所以對於生物的健康沒有顯著的影響當時我在問這件事情的時候你們告訴我國研院自己也在進行用黃錫雕來試驗現在是不是在進行中要不要增加實驗的物種要不要持續的增加實驗的時間"},{"start":10622.117,"end":10635.904,"text":"這些呢 是 報告委員現階段會把這個黃錫雕的檢驗整個把它做完原來就包括黃錫雕龍鬚菜 九孔刀 白蝦做完以後看下一個計畫如果下一期計畫"},{"start":10637.085,"end":10652.688,"text":"要繼續做這個國家願意繼續投入我們會增加我也支持跟倡議要繼續做增加實驗的物種我覺得這是兩個保護傘兩道防線一個是監測寒川廢水的這個排放物"},{"start":10653.209,"end":10654.65,"text":"很多在野党的委员在说核能很便宜"},{"start":10683.349,"end":10693.021,"text":"核能是真的那么便宜的吗主委你刚刚的回答我是大有意见你以他的发电的收费来看"},{"start":10694.181,"end":10722.053,"text":"我們對於核能的投資對於工程設備的更新尤其現在廚藝的核電廠要再啟用還有要對於採購燃料棒還有對於他的賠償風險你都不提耶你都不提耶我們作為一個政策的倡議者你是核安會的主委你可以輕率的回答說對核電比較安全我再給你一次機會"},{"start":10726.365,"end":10733.63,"text":"核电不是零风险所以风险是有代价的风险也需要"},{"start":10736.771,"end":10755.548,"text":"你不能用核電的發電的幾塊錢一度一塊多比這個其他的人這個燃煤還便宜來簡化這個問題啊我用具體的數字來說你知道福島核電廠發生複合式的災害之後日本政府投入多少錢賠償嗎"},{"start":10758.134,"end":10778.508,"text":"我跟大家講我要跟公民社會講福島核電廠發生我們不幸的災難事件我們不願意看到它發生日本政府已經投入光賠償金10兆日元如果加上賠償金跟清理後續的廠的收拾是花費了22兆日元"},{"start":10779.449,"end":10801.646,"text":"最終這件事情還沒有結束喔最終會解決這整個福島核電衍生的善後最終的花費可能會到35兆至80兆日元我取它的中間值就是大概55兆日元等於11兆台幣光一個核電廠出現了安全的問題"},{"start":10803.183,"end":10824.461,"text":"他投入11兆台币现在还在收拾是4年的台湾国家政府总预算你告诉我核电很便宜你告诉我这些设备设施风险的代价不用计算吗主委我实在不能接受问题不能这么简化"},{"start":10825.478,"end":10844.199,"text":"委員他在槌尋他會從某一個切點切入可是我們在看待政策是要全面的我甚至我剛舉日本的例子我可以舉美國的例子啊跟核三廠類似的美國加州的魔鬼谷核電廠你們應當常常會提到這個案例吧"},{"start":10845.06,"end":10869.675,"text":"他對於整個攤提的成本設備的更新燃料的添購他的發電核電一度要到4塊台幣如果把攤提算進去絕對不是簡單說核電光講發電一度一塊多是廉價的是便宜的我認為我們講政策要講清楚要講全面"},{"start":10871.076,"end":10898.568,"text":"委員只看到其一你必須縱觀好嗎核電的風險跟安全的代價也是國家要pay for it台灣人民要pay for it這個事情我要在這裡正式的來澄清說清楚不要只看到核電的好處而它的好處也不是只有比較便宜這一項而你遺漏了它可能造成的風險"},{"start":10899.989,"end":10922.058,"text":"安全是無價的安全是無價的安全是無價的但即便如此我們二次的能源轉型我們要做的是能源的多元化核電只是其一核電不是唯一而核電還包括新式核能的開發不是只有舊核電的老路所以我確實"},{"start":10923.579,"end":10949.374,"text":"我也肯定政府正在做能源多元化的整体评估重启核电要过了安全这一关要有核废可以解决的这一关还有社会的共识要具足所以核电只是其一并非唯一这是我在这里要再次强调我刚回答是根据台电的说法这不是核安会的立场"},{"start":10950.154,"end":10954.205,"text":"那你的說法會被剪成影片去放你知道嗎我剛剛說的收不出台電的"},{"start":10957.239,"end":10978.715,"text":"主席站起來了最後給您10秒鐘核電真的是如此的廉價不需要去思考它的安全風險嗎您再回答一次我問核安會事實上只關心的是核電的安全經濟上是不是有效率就讓他們由台電來評估所以發言請注意發言請嚴謹好嗎好謝謝加油辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":10986.428,"end":11007.132,"text":"好謝謝委員的質詢我們下一位委員吳佩儀委員謝主席我請何安慧陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":11015.6,"end":11019.605,"text":"主委好我們4月28號上午10點核安會要在屏東舉辦核安會審查核三廠運轉執照換發案的地方說明會這個說明會非常的重要因為我們核三廠興建的時候是在1978年"},{"start":11033.723,"end":11058.781,"text":"我還沒有出生當時是戒嚴時期資訊封閉而且我們也沒有環評法規相關的程序所以可以說核三廠興建的時候其實是沒有公民參與機制的公民當時無法表達意見那也遠不如今天的程序完備那我們現在已經是民主化時代民主社會所以我們一定要進行充分的社會溝通你們也務必要把可能的影響要對大眾來進行說明"},{"start":11061.323,"end":11084.168,"text":"那我想請問一下因為剛剛主委有說這個說明會我們是全程網路直播嘛是的是 所以我覺得很好那場次呢因為你們舉辦時間是在平日上午其實有些民眾反映因為在上班不方便參加我們有沒有預計規劃其他場次我們總共會有四場總共會有四場好 這個資訊呢請你們務必在網路上面都要公開那我們這個說明會完的會議記錄會不會公開上網"},{"start":11087.486,"end":11110.711,"text":"也會公開上網很好我們要讓民眾能夠有實質的參與的機會跟管道那另外今天核安會的專報也有關於原子能法的修法因為有委員提案在討論事項當中那作為立法委員呢為法案把關都是我們的工作所以呢這個召委員有提案版本那比較不好意思但是因為這個對這個版本確實有些意見所以今天要提出來跟核安會討論"},{"start":11112.331,"end":11128.505,"text":"這個版本是趙偉宇、廖偉祥、蘇清泉、徐巧欣、林倩琴、林沛翔等19位委員所提的主要意見是在於它這個修法版本的第三條因為我們現行的版本是說原子能主管機關為原子能委員會"},{"start":11129.246,"end":11144.397,"text":"立屬行政院其組織以法律定制那現在委員的修法版本是把裡面要說第三條應該應設立二級原子能管機關核能安全委員會那麼核安會我們目前是三級機關嘛"},{"start":11146.099,"end":11161.574,"text":"那如果要修為二級機關這個方向其實我認為都可以討論但是如果是這個修法是修在原子能法我就比較有疑慮一點目前核安會是三級獨立機關這個是定在哪一條法裡面"},{"start":11163.823,"end":11178.434,"text":"所以河安會組織法對因為我們其實是有河安會的組織法我們有專屬的組織法就在第一條裡面裡面有明定說這個我們是相當中央的三級獨立機關那既然我們已經有專屬的組織法"},{"start":11180.095,"end":11196.045,"text":"如果真的要提升它從三級到二級的話要修應該也是修在組織法當中應該不是修在原子能法尤其是今天它是修法是希望定定為基本法這個方向那我看了一下因為有可能是像我們新住民的基本法"},{"start":11196.465,"end":11218.856,"text":"他的這個要三級行政機關就是定在新住民基本法當中這個在法的第四條但是新住民基本法跟原子能法還是完全不同為什麼因為新住民基本法訂定的時候是2024年7月三讀通過當時是甚至沒有新住民發展署的有基本法之後還沒有組織法但是我們現在河岸會我們既有法也有組織"},{"start":11220.077,"end":11245.104,"text":"更有組織法所以如果真的是要來討論這個三級至二級的話要修應該也是要訂到組織法當中今天人事總署是不是也有來我有請人事總署那另外呢如果真的要修這個法的話也是要配套修法因為也是正在叫我們叫文匯去年成立了運動部嘛我們新設運動部的時候當時不只是修了不只是提了運動組織法同時要修什麼要修中央行政機關組織"},{"start":11247.144,"end":11271.377,"text":"組織基準法與行政院組織法因為我們這個核安會他是他如果真的要提升這個級別的話這是牽涉到行政院整體的這個機關所以如果要修也是這兩個法都要配套來修所以第一個如果修了原子能法還是得要修這個核安會組織法嗎所以我就看不出來說為什麼要來修這個原子能法第二個"},{"start":11271.877,"end":11294.595,"text":"就算修了環會組織法我們還是要配套修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政院組織法這三個法通通都要修才有可能啊那如果說現在我們只修原子能法修二來把三級變到二級但是沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法及行政院組織法的話這個在法與法之間會不會有所衝突這個主委可以回答嗎還是我們任總可不可以來協助回答"},{"start":11295.991,"end":11322.323,"text":"就是說倘若啦就是說核安會如果現在要把它變從三級變成二級機關的話沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政機關組織法會不會有所衝突是 報告委員那原則上我們的原則是說在作用法裡面其實盡量不要提到阻塞跟人力的編制所以它這次的修法主要其實是在證明說它的主管機關是誰所以因為原則能"},{"start":11323.743,"end":11351.257,"text":"委員會的名稱已經改變所以提到這次的修法但是提到組織層級這個我們還是比較希望回到組織法跟行政院組織法或者相關的規範來做檢討 以上好 謝謝對 所以如果說是三級要到二級我覺得可以討論但是這個修法應該是要來配套再來就是我也很關心的是因為現在這個趙偉這個版本裡面還有把獨立機關的獨立兩個字是把它拿掉的"},{"start":11352.257,"end":11374.133,"text":"這個我有很大的疑慮 為什麼因為橫安櫃作為獨立機關是因為它這樣的職權是叫做監管核能安全這是我們主委剛剛一再強調也是你們今天報告當中所講的原子能法它所訂定的是原子能政策以及安全管制的根本法制基礎但今天如果你把獨立兩個字拿掉"},{"start":11376.525,"end":11405.032,"text":"這個未來看起來核安會它也有可能是成為一個推動機關不只是監管機關我們讓它是獨立機關第一個最重要是我們希望核安會不受政治干擾依專業來自主決定應該核能安全就是要回歸專業但如果把獨立兩個字拿掉未來如果核安會變成還是推動機關不只是監管機關會造成非常非常大的問題"},{"start":11406.604,"end":11421.397,"text":"因為河岸會現在的定位其實是裁判推動機關叫做經濟部叫做台電如果把獨一兩個字拿掉未來河岸會還要去推動的話那變成裁判兼球員球員兼裁判"},{"start":11423.584,"end":11453.284,"text":"所以我有很大的疑慮那所以未來在討論這個修法的時候請大家務必要謹慎那最後呢是今天我們專案當中也有海域輻射監測這個我也很關切因為主要談論是寒川廢水嘛國際原子能總署最新發布的消息是日本從福島核電廠排放的第19批處理水它的寒川量是遠低於日本的排放限值你們請核安會協助說明這個訊息它代表什麼意思"},{"start":11455.605,"end":11481.137,"text":"報告委員那因為IAEA都會針對日本每一批次的排放都會去取樣那在這個因為他們也會去做分析那依照日本的一個排放限制是每一批次的那個稀釋後的傳濃度是要低於1500倍克每公升好那他們的一個都分析完那依據我們過去的一個掌握日本大概每一批次大概是座落到200到500之間"},{"start":11483.258,"end":11500.56,"text":"所以IEA才會說它的一個是遠低於日本的排放限值所以都是在標準我看了一下歷來的資料這屬於常態但是我們核安會還是要持續的來監測不能放鬆警戒但是我要提醒為什麼會有寒川廢水"},{"start":11501.821,"end":11524.83,"text":"那就是因為福島當年核災發生之後它的第一核電廠它受損了嘛所以它為了要去維持它受損反應爐的安全它必須持續的一直去注入它的冷卻水把這個水注入到爐心因為要幫反應爐降溫對不對然後這個寒川水因為量實在太大了最後它只好往海域去排放"},{"start":11527.045,"end":11538.166,"text":"那為什麼要持續降溫因為現在的核燃料棒跟反應爐它是融在一起拿不出來我們現在還有多少的這個核燃料是殘留在福島的核儀廠團會有沒有資訊"},{"start":11542.52,"end":11566.57,"text":"一共現在還有880噸 這是日本的資料因為1號機 2號機 3號機 三部機組因為爐心受損 燃料目前還取不出來因為它們融在一起 所以目前在裡面的還有880噸2024年的時候 日本首次取出燃料碎片 取出了多少 取出了3克"},{"start":11567.978,"end":11577.463,"text":"在裡面880噸核栽之後不是核栽就沒事了880噸現在椰子取出了3克為什麼它融在一起了所以這是一個非常龐大複雜的問題"},{"start":11580.109,"end":11596.821,"text":"所以我要再次來提醒有關於核能的使用每一個決策它的影響都甚大甚久遠目前這個寒川廢水日本往海域排放還要排放多少年沒有人知道它的這個核燃料殘存在輔導廠裡面的"},{"start":11598.522,"end":11623.055,"text":"還要多少年才有辦法完全取出 沒人知道所以呢 我們務必 核安會是核能安全的主管機關要拜託你們 務必要謹慎的為國人來把關我們核能使用的安全好不好 主委 這是你們重大的責任有關於台灣的下一個50年 下一個100年就在我們核安會 你們謹慎的把關當中請務必秉持專業好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":11627.5,"end":11654.313,"text":"好 謝謝我們吳委員的詢答也感謝吳委員提供的意見加入一起討論未來我們一起努力朝野一起合作好 謝謝下一位吳麗華委員的詢答 謝謝謝謝趙偉主席有請何安慧主委有請主委"},{"start":11663.263,"end":11683.159,"text":"主委好主委好這個禮拜一大家都知道日本青森縣發現有7.5的強震因此引發國際的緊張我們都特別注意它的周邊的核電廠的狀況像是青森有核電廠工程"},{"start":11683.88,"end":11710.519,"text":"也有核电厂那包括福岛有核电厂那特别是福岛的核电厂因为距离当时福岛核灾已经15年但是呢这个排放期程这个寒川废水呢要监测长达30年所以在这个部分引发了大家的疑虑我们也很想知道我国监测的结果可是呢在去年核三厂"},{"start":11711.3,"end":11735.422,"text":"他有发生火灾但是民团批评没有通报也没有通知撤离所以呢大家也发现说我们的风险意识很薄弱那请教一下针对这种国外国内可能引发的这些核灾的应变目前有SOP机制吗有的是什么林组长回答"},{"start":11736.631,"end":11753.142,"text":"報告員我們在核災面上有核子事故警警應變法那也都有相關的一個組織的一個規劃那相關的程序書以及我們每年都會透過年度的核安演習去做一個場內到場外這些我們都知道那為什麼去年沒有通報"},{"start":11754.542,"end":11778.197,"text":"報告委員 去年就是河山場這個火災 它的地點也是在 並不是在這種緊要的區域那另外它也並沒有影響到 就是機組的部分跟在所以意思就是說 它不會在人口密集重要的地方所以呢 就不需要讓周邊的居民了解 不需要通報 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":11779.218,"end":11781.661,"text":"那未來如果還發生這個情形因為我們都知道我們每一年都有在做演練但是去年發生這個情形就讓我們很驚訝"},{"start":11798.004,"end":11822.521,"text":"目前電廠都跟就是像地方政府都有更緊密的一些即時的聯繫所以像就是聯絡的平台社群就是一些LINE等等更即時的聯絡平台他們都在更強化那意思就是說這個有列入檢討以後不會發生這種沒有通報沒有周知居民要不要撤離不會再發生這種事在通報的部分就是已經確實在做強化"},{"start":11825.258,"end":11852.902,"text":"做强化那意思就是以后不会再发生这种被诟病的事实我们会监督就是台电公司跟电厂这边那为什么我们会这样子重视因为我们也很了解光是我们常常讲日本寒川沸水日本寒川沸水可是在我们的对岸我们不要讲日韩光是我们对岸的海边大概中国就有20座的核电机组非常的惊人"},{"start":11853.983,"end":11866.132,"text":"那在這裡呢我們也看到我們現在有所謂的採樣點那有跟水勢所、海巡署、海保署還有你們偵測中心總共有107個取樣點"},{"start":11868.914,"end":11889.208,"text":"我想問就是面對中國地區越來越多的核電廠現在當前載運跟核組在建的就有112台新核准的有46台所以為了我們的周遭海域跟核能安全著想這107個取樣點有沒有重新檢討還是這樣就夠了"},{"start":11896.015,"end":11919.385,"text":"報告委員在107點其實我們有涵蓋就是剛剛圖上講的台灣海峽然後也有馬祖金門的還有澎湖的這些離島那在我們未來的因應因為這些是屬還是屬於要人工的採樣跟一個分析所以我們在下一期的一個計畫在監控韌性網這邊我們是希望在離島這邊能夠建立及時的這些偵測站那這樣的話就能夠針對這個"},{"start":11926.208,"end":11950.575,"text":"所以會增加就對了那我因為在大概五個月前就是上個會期你們和安會來這個地方做夜報的時候我在12月10號當時我有提醒因為民團很多人問每次都是說寒川寒川我們的這個監測儀表板公開的這個儀表板也只有看到川"},{"start":11951.295,"end":11970.901,"text":"但是呢穿以外的核種也蠻多的啊所以當時問你們的時候當時你們有坦言說像碳14.129目前還沒有能力去檢測所以我當時有說兩個月內請你們邀請衛福部國科會中研院就穿以外的核種對人體的危害風險檢測的技術"},{"start":11972.802,"end":11998.242,"text":"控管的標準要納入監測的範疇那我在這邊要很肯定因為你們回報給我的資料12月26號你們就有召開跨部會的協調我們也看到像截至目前4月份這個儀表板我們也看到跟以前不一樣了他有其他核穿以外的核種有看到色穿探絲點但實際上你們給我的報告還蠻多的包括"},{"start":12002.425,"end":12027.219,"text":"還有菇、鳥、地還蠻多的你們說已經改版更新放入這個儀表版當中但是我們看了一下你們之前有寫什麼合格建樹、不合格建樹但是目前這樣的一個實施範圍內建樹大於背景範圍內建樹那它到底是合格還是不合格"},{"start":12030.562,"end":12045.111,"text":"因為這一些其他的河種它是屬於稀少的其實它含量很低我們當初在大家在討論的時候因為海水它其實是沒有標準的當然我們的環境就是我們河岸會"},{"start":12046.872,"end":12073.961,"text":"或者是國際的那個Codex食品的安全其實都有一個標準可是我們覺得這個值都因為它的值本身很低所以我們後來就是用背景的一個概念想說很低就叫背景一般人看不懂啊其實你們公開儀表板就是要讓國人安心嘛看不懂啊所以你們儀表板要不要再去多做一點改善改進"},{"start":12075.653,"end":12091.228,"text":"好我們這部分再會後我們再好謝謝那最後我有一個部分就是想要了解因為重啟核三嘛那四月也進入審查階段了嘛所以呢有一個公文就是四月二十八"},{"start":12093.35,"end":12118.267,"text":"會有一個河安會審查河山場運轉執照換發案的地方說明會那當然地方的立委你們都有邀請但是我們看到民間的部分邀請的是恆春滿洲的部分地區但是我們如果以過去電協會發回饋金它受河山影響的地區有四大鄉鎮"},{"start":12119.708,"end":12146.088,"text":"我們的車城鄉牡丹鄉就沒有被受邀這是什麼原因?已經邀請了有邀請了齁?因為我覺得核安安全嘛最重要的就是知情同意嘛所以這個部分你們有加邀了齁?有加邀了謝謝齁那這個部分我們也想要請教一下核電的人才因為你們要重啟安檢所以我們就看到報上說"},{"start":12148.516,"end":12168.375,"text":"你們目前是在找那些退休老將回鍋也暴露了我們河工人才的斷層所以這個部分尤其是明年會是人力最吃緊的時候我想請教一下河安會你們有沒有做什麼因應就是關於人才的培育"},{"start":12170.808,"end":12191.388,"text":"有很多方面的除了在公費留學之外我們也申請很多研究計畫給清華大學跟國研院培養人才你們有去學校找人了嗎?有有有他們願意到你們那邊工作嗎?現在還沒有到那邊,我們工作還只有考試"},{"start":12193.109,"end":12220.441,"text":"我想这个部分我们也是很希望你们关照一下我们希望有更多人可以投入这行业因为其实很多的核废料储存其实都会在我们原住民的传统领域所以我希望你们也不要忘记人才在地培育这件事情我希望以后我来咨询的时候我能够听到这方面的回应因为其实在我们的公务人才培育现在考选部"},{"start":12221.101,"end":12237.496,"text":"他們都已經有因應的計劃中長城計劃那關於我們高等師資的一個培育原住民的部分教育部呢他們也都已經有中長城計劃出來我就是想要知道現在在我們那個地方又有國家發射廠"},{"start":12238.617,"end":12265.044,"text":"又有核电厂等等之类都在我们的传统领域你们刚刚自己讲嘛说那个地方是很偏远的地方比较没有人居住的地方那在地人才的培育就很重要啊那我希望这个部分也许我下一次的质询我会希望听到你们已经有中长城计划该如何做人才培育可以吗可以的谢谢主委谢谢主席谢谢委员"},{"start":12268.302,"end":12269.987,"text":"謝謝吳麗華委員的詢問下一位諮詢委員羅廷惟委員"},{"start":12297.042,"end":12320.021,"text":"好謝謝主席有請主委好請何安慧主委謝謝好主委辛苦了謝謝主委先跟你確認一下上次您有跟我答應我們可以爭取科普展在我們台中可以嗎可以可以下半年"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12338.92,"text":"可以大概什麼時候可不可以跟大家分享12月12月12月左右我想這是對中部地區長期推動科學教育的一個一大鼓勵這邊我也想建議國科會跟台中市政府在地的這個研究單位密切能夠合作"},{"start":12339.62,"end":12363.92,"text":"甚至有需要我們協調的例如結合捷運站的導覽、科博館的主題展區等等適合把它設計到整個國小到高中不同年齡層的一個路線跟活動讓親子、學生以及一般市民都能夠找到自己適合的一個參與方式如果有需要協助的話本席也願意全力來幫忙這個部分是不是大家一起來努力是的好"},{"start":12364.5,"end":12376.587,"text":"那今天排審這個原子能這個修正案報告裡面提到呢我們想這個一行政院啊功能業務及組織調整的一個條例第三條只要行政院完成公告"},{"start":12377.509,"end":12399.392,"text":"主改整個機關的管轄權就已經完備也就是說整個行政程序上行政院原子能委員會改制為核能安全委員會這件事情其實已經生效運作立法院只是將這個相關的條文中的一個名稱一併修正為核能安全委員會但是我想比較能夠跟你請教的"},{"start":12401.209,"end":12422.676,"text":"原子能我們這一次的核能安全委員會核安會的報告中我們希望將原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會上面寫競表尊重想請教主委這句競表尊重的意思是什麼對核安會來說是不是沒關係"},{"start":12425.416,"end":12451.486,"text":"維持條文原本的原子能委員會對核安會來說是不是也覺得都可以可不可以展現一下立場現在核安會對機制的運作方面並沒有什麼困難對啊沒有什麼困難所以可有可無是嗎您覺得"},{"start":12455.617,"end":12479.968,"text":"實際的運作不會有困難我們都知道但是呢現在法規我們要幫你修正嘛立場是什麼可有可無還是支持我們是原來是配合行政院的主改規劃對嘛主改規劃已經幫你改名了嘛但是法規上還沒有跟進嘛"},{"start":12480.931,"end":12507.952,"text":"涉及行政院的這個組織法等等我想主委我在問你到底是可有可無還是競表支持啊這部分您覺得呢當然感謝委員關心主委您的回應真的是非常的好不愧是我的學長立法院的回應都非常的四平八穩"},{"start":12509.551,"end":12531.63,"text":"但是我想我們都還是希望今天不會無緣無故幫你修法一定是有其必要性那另外我想請教一下人事行政總署在人總今天的報告中提及和安會業務性質偏重於專業導向的一個監督機制與相當二級機關"},{"start":12537.168,"end":12562.703,"text":"通常會公平會中選會偏重於廣納社會多元的價值有別所以以維持現行組織層級的運作請問任總你自己也講核安會的業務性質偏重於專業導向的監督機制現在核能在全世界都那麼重要加上核電又要重啟那麼重要的一個單位難道任總反對核安會回到原來的行政院二級機關嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":12567.616,"end":12588.727,"text":"原則上我們是因應他在1、2年的時候進行促改所以他在從原子能輪會改變成核安會的當下其實有進行一些組織上的調整那當時候的原額其實也都是照現行的規模處理和給所以在相關的人力規模上其實並沒有去做其他的刪減"},{"start":12589.767,"end":12606.686,"text":"那另外一個部分是因為我們是在看說他的那個組織性的部分是因為他現在都是跟過去原子能委員會的職能上有做一些變化所以他現在是完全是一個監管的單位所以他的職能上維持在監管的層級上"},{"start":12608.408,"end":12633.259,"text":"改變成為獨立機關的性質維持三級總歸原來就是你今天報告都有寫你覺得就是維持現行所以你反對回到原來的二級機關是吧我們是建議還是維持我想如果二級單位員額滿的話我倒是建議人總可以降為三級三級機關也可以做公務人員的人力管理應該也沒什麼影響"},{"start":12634.62,"end":12654.933,"text":"但我基本上我還是希望每個單位的立場說明白沒關係我們都尊重但我們的立場就是希望既然核能重啟既然核能的安全我們要予以重視能夠幫你列為二級機關是希望說在這個業務上的跨局處跨部會的一個協調能夠更為順暢"},{"start":12657.034,"end":12674.405,"text":"阿當然你也說啦三級冠你也順暢啦我尊重你的說法啦好那但是我們還是希望我們的立場各自說清楚好主委今天就繼續我們河岸會的赴日實地觀察第六次的報告來請教主委請問主委上次我在業務中有提到"},{"start":12675.424,"end":12696.494,"text":"在日本土壤的採集問題啊你們說因為日本土壤都有專屬的儲存設施進行管制那今天就繼續這個問題來跟你請教首先我有收到核安會給我的回覆請問國際原子能總署於2025年2月視察寒川廢水排放的作業時也有對於土壤的儲存設施進行視察"},{"start":12697.634,"end":12713.574,"text":"但並無提出土壤取樣的評估作業請問主委國際原子能總署對土壤沒有要求我們就不需要主動規劃土壤監測跟取樣嗎人家沒有做我們也不要做這樣的風險評估你不覺得很被動嗎"},{"start":12716.738,"end":12726.532,"text":"我們現在政府的規定,國外的土壤是不允許進口的,這個詳細我們再請張處長做詳細報告。"},{"start":12732.169,"end":12752.482,"text":"因為目前那個日本是還沒有正式釋出這個土壤的一個在地用所以我們去看的時候應該是先掌握他們的初步的一個規劃跟想法那我相信IAEA國際專家也是這樣的一個想法"},{"start":12753.963,"end":12780.043,"text":"究竟之後真的他們去做土壤的一個一個外試使用到底他使用的面向是在哪裡對國人有沒有一些健康的一個風險我相信這邊都應該我們都河南會都還是會來持續的一個掌握然後來評估那以現在目前的一個階段而言因為他那個土壤是在管制的一個一個"},{"start":12781.363,"end":12808.213,"text":"一個儲存設施所以在跟委員報告以目前為止我們大概是不會有一個取樣的這些規劃為什麼我會對土壤這麼有興趣我們來探討一下我先請問既然土壤設有這個日本的土壤儲存設施進一步請教河岸會在復日是否會有實地瞭解這些儲存設施對地下水是否造成影響是否滲漏擴散"},{"start":12810.274,"end":12828.296,"text":"長期污染的一個風險評估也報告委員那因為這些土壤他們放到這個中期儲存其實在我們的國際就是我們的一個審查我們都是用國際的一個IEA的審查它還是屬於放射性的一個污染物"},{"start":12828.997,"end":12853.862,"text":"所以在這一些的省在國際的一個規範裡頭第一個當然要有完善的一個處理就我們知道那個日本的這個土它下面會有一些隔水的一個然後最下面會有黏土那中間旁邊其實它這些雨水下漏其實它有回收的機制所以它就是有一個儲存設施去做隔離嘛我知道可是進一步我們要來談的就是"},{"start":12854.682,"end":12878.983,"text":"日本目前政策是將低輻射受污染的土壤再利用在道路在防潮堤海岸防災林填海公共工程喔我要請問主委這些再利用土壤是否可能會影響鄰近的栽培食用農作物的土壤這是我們關心的啊"},{"start":12880.572,"end":12894.146,"text":"我知道嘛高污染的一定會做一個隔離嘛但低輻射污染我們也要監測啊我的態度很清楚有人說啊中國的核廢水排放我一樣要監測啊"},{"start":12896.331,"end":12922.158,"text":"只要任何影響到國人的飲食健康影響到我們未來甚至是孩童的飲食我一律都反對我一律都要求一定要嚴格審查所以剛剛我講的很清楚嘛為什麼我們關心土壤你說高汙染的他有儲存設施低汙染的他拿出來利用啦填海等公共工程我們是不是應該多關心一下這個議題不是只有寒川廢水"},{"start":12923.988,"end":12946.457,"text":"那有委員提到中國核廢水也要關心啊我支持那現在我講的低汙染的這一個土壤來做公共工程了主委他也有可能影響啊我們是不是要關心是我們一直在關心他們土壤目前還沒有外施對不起您剛剛講什麼我再講一次日本那個機器人的還沒有釋放出來"},{"start":12950.991,"end":12977.734,"text":"還沒有釋放出來對 他只是試點 有一些試點你說他的這個公共工程有幾個示範點是嗎在研究之中 還沒有正式釋放對嘛 他有打算這樣做嘛對吧他有這個 往這方面想有想我們就要來開始關心了啊對不對我們也有依舊關心預防勝於治療啊"},{"start":12979.11,"end":12987.057,"text":"你不能等他做了你才要來關心啊對不對我們要看到更超前超前部署嘛好不好"},{"start":12988.162,"end":13011.921,"text":"謝謝委員所以進一步了解地下水具有流動性是否存在地下水的傳輸輻射物質的二次擴散相關的風險有沒有充分的被我們給關注到去做評估嗎我想植物生長仰賴水土壤空氣三個基本的要素但根據食藥署公佈的資料日本五縣地區的食品監測和格率"},{"start":13013.723,"end":13033.525,"text":"從2021年的99.7到2023年99.5到2024年的前5個月99.1坦白講是呈現下降的趨勢請問主委這樣的變化是否可能跟環境中水土壤空氣的污染變化存在著關聯呢我們有沒有進一步的分析其因果的關係"},{"start":13037.212,"end":13055.707,"text":"因為那個衛福部其實是福島100年事故開始其實就都在做這個的一個邊境的一個查驗所以他的一個污染的一個來源是因為事故當下其實造成的一個污染的一個土壤所造成的所以也就像委員講的這個是長期的"},{"start":13057.628,"end":13070.918,"text":"那衛福部都有在這塊關心那剛剛講的這些污染在這十年中其實污染的土壤已經都被日本政府一一的收到剛剛我們講的那個中期儲存所以整體來講未來的這個土壤"},{"start":13073.74,"end":13093.857,"text":"他的一個一個在利用的一個使用其實都會在安全的標準而且現在日本也還沒有去做這一方面的一個推動所以在這一邊那個衛福部的邊境查驗也相信他們的一個合格這個都是會合格的對民眾的安全這都是我們很關心的啦那再來"},{"start":13094.577,"end":13121.41,"text":"報告也提及日本對低輻射污染土壤採取再利用的政策像我剛剛講的防潮堤防災林 填土我想這個部分我們都希望填海等公共設施是整個將作為整個填土或沖田的一個材料對於超過安全標準屬於高污染的一個土壤日本是如何處理長期的一個儲存最終的處置還有它的去化的機制它的標準"},{"start":13122.19,"end":13143.744,"text":"管理的措施為何我們都很關心也希望後面能夠提供這部分你們能夠關注然後提供這個資料給我們那報告第12頁也指出啊日本採取的是核燃料循環的政策也就是透過在處理用過的核子燃料中的可裂變物質啊達到在利用的一個核燃料資源"},{"start":13144.925,"end":13163.033,"text":"減少高放射性的廢棄物體積確保核能長期可以持續的利用以及能源的一個安全目標請問核安會如何評估核燃料循環的一個政策在台灣的可行性目前核安會整體評估結論為何有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":13165.185,"end":13185.846,"text":"目前還在研究之中國研院也有做這方面的研究有研究喔確定喔是有研究好有研究就好但是我們希望降低高放射線的對我們希望後續能夠拿到一些相關資料可以提供嗎可以可以"},{"start":13186.861,"end":13202.681,"text":"這個部分我們希望台灣應該做得比日本更嚴謹因為乾式儲存的一個設施日本是使用金屬互相台灣是使用混凝土的一個互相系統所以在報告的第23頁提及日本對於台灣混凝土"},{"start":13203.782,"end":13227.417,"text":"這個所謂的互相系統安全監測以及因應他的腐蝕防範的議題被感興趣這代表台灣在乾式儲存的一個互相設計跟長期的一個監測規劃上某些做法已經走在日本的前面而日方也說要向台灣來取經這代表一件事情台灣不是做不到高標準和安跟和廢的一個管理"},{"start":13228.237,"end":13251.328,"text":"所以核安會更有責任把這些專業的成果風險的評估以及未來的用過的核燃料管理的一個整體路徑清楚的跟社會大眾說明最後我有一個議題我今天就提但不讓你回答了因為時間有限我想牙醫師全聯會在3月9日有拜會核安會討論兩個議題"},{"start":13254.38,"end":13263.64,"text":"分別是移動式的牙科X光機牙科的科間X光機必須設置在獨立的X光室"},{"start":13264.841,"end":13293.712,"text":"我想這個議題主委我希望能夠重視我們也很重視牙醫全聯會他們的一個訴求很多偏鄉沒有牙醫今天朝偉他們也是在偏鄉在努力我想比如台東縣東和鄉就是其中一個無牙醫的一個鄉鎮所以就只能藉由行動牙科的方式去偏鄉看診然而卻面臨沒有攜帶式X光劑無法做牙根管"},{"start":13294.912,"end":13322.592,"text":"以及拔牙等进一步的治疗这些都是现阶段遇到的问题偏向行动的牙科高龄患者所面临到的一个现行规范的一个障碍河安会是否承诺已经造成实际的医疗不平等河安会的风险评估有没有办法把医疗可静性不足的本身作为一个公共健康风险纳入考量就这两个议题有没有收集国际的指引更务实的做法"},{"start":13324.31,"end":13336.241,"text":"這個會後麻煩你給我資料好我希望你要正視這個問題好好不好謝謝可以的好謝謝羅廷偉趙偉的詢答請和安會主委回座"},{"start":13349.152,"end":13371.418,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一位委員鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才�"},{"start":13377.955,"end":13398.54,"text":"好 主委好主委本席有看到您今天上午接受我們委員的詢答那有也講了媒體剛剛寫說您也親口鬆口說核電是有助電價穩定我想這樣的一個態度本席與肯定為什麼因為我們常講能源是選擇就是說我們大家都要用電"},{"start":13399.5,"end":13413.32,"text":"所以電怎麼來很重要還有電的多樣性不要雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡也相對重要因為如果說雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡如同現在台灣目前95%如果晚間的時候都是火力發電"},{"start":13414.827,"end":13430.652,"text":"突然間來一個中東戰爭油氣煤上漲的情況其實對於我們的發電成本當然是大幅提升也因此從2月28號到現在不過短短的兩個月左右的時間其實中油也吸收很多的成本"},{"start":13431.192,"end":13449.413,"text":"那如果說現在我們有相對的核能發電的話它是多樣化的一個分散風險也就可以有助於電價的穩定啦所以我想這樣子的一個過程裡面能夠聽到專業的意見我們是予以尊重也肯定那"},{"start":13449.913,"end":13479.068,"text":"另外一個部分我也看到就說有委員也問說現在河山場的重啟已經送到河安會那河安會我們現在這邊也講是說不會再加速對不對因為安全的問題把關非常重要我覺得這樣的一個態度我也肯定因為我還是強調河安絕對是最重要河安絕對最重要本席的選區有河一場雖然河一場現在是沒有在重啟的範圍內但是河安一樣重要"},{"start":13479.588,"end":13494.317,"text":"好那但是另外一個部分是說那至少我們要用多久的時間你說沒有辦法加速那總是我們有一個預估的時間到目前為止有沒有所謂的時間表就什麼時候會審理完畢過程是不是簡單說明一下"},{"start":13496.789,"end":13515.007,"text":"我对实际表有很大的方面有台电方面要看它的报告的进度报告老化审查的进度等等还有我们对审查意见的回复等等"},{"start":13516.11,"end":13540.045,"text":"還有我們現場視察的結果很多因素會影響到你是審查機關所以如果說台電送出來之後有缺失你要求更正改進台電有辦法更正有辦法改進再送進來你們再審查所以目前是沒有時間表因為世界各國核電廠重啟也不會有說大約平均多久時間可以重啟完畢"},{"start":13540.982,"end":13549.061,"text":"是的 當然不會有一個固定時間表好 那就本席的了解你們會用多幾次的限定審查"},{"start":13551.223,"end":13573.195,"text":"因為你現在可能是4月5月就要去限定審查是不是?所以已經安排了跟委員說明台電公司要提交的報告很多包括他先提出再運轉計畫那後續還有台電公司所說的自主安全檢查就是法規規定的老化冰箍這些這部分的報告都還沒送到會裡面來所以確實要"},{"start":13575.801,"end":13592.41,"text":"審查時間還要看台電公司什麼時候提交給會裡面來審查那台電公司對會裡面的技術審查的意見回覆這些我都可以理解因為其實我們就拿最簡單的比喻來講譬如說一般的民間建築好之後要申請使用執照"},{"start":13592.99,"end":13614.396,"text":"我也沒有辦法要求主管機關是說你什麼時候要發使用執照嘛一定是他把所有文件包括消防檢查包括什麼機電檢查全部都送進來合格之後你才有辦法核發嘛所以我這邊不會為難我只是說要求核安會一定要本於專業來去做法官可是另外一個部分"},{"start":13615.496,"end":13639.508,"text":"昨天賴清德總統也接見這個環團其實重啟核電這件事情為什麼說民進黨政府轉彎就是因為賴清德總統在兩個月前他先在一個公開的場合講是說台電已經要送進來了所以說大家才嘩然就說原來現在民進黨政府核電轉彎即便事後他又講說沒有還是要有三前提但是現在台電主動送進來是事實而且這是主動送進來"},{"start":13642.03,"end":13660.407,"text":"賴總統昨天還是在重提說要三條件一個和安無虞一個核廢有解一個社會有共識那我想要再就教一下我們專業的意見和安無虞沒有問題大家都同意甚至我更要求是說不能加速我們應該要本於專業和安處理"},{"start":13661.448,"end":13685.97,"text":"社會有共識到目前為止現在百分之六十七十的民調都已經站在支持台灣要有穩定物價核能發電的一個立場上面因為核電是低碳穩定低價的發電方式那另外核廢油解這一個就是大家現在在想是說到底現在民進黨政府有沒有在做最終處置場的選定"},{"start":13688.906,"end":13710.047,"text":"還是這一題就是大家打模糊仗主委因為我們現在合費料 合一的合費料還在放在我們合一廠啊然後告訴我們都是這個叫做中級儲存廠中間的中啊 不是最中的中啊那大家想說那合費有解你的意思是賴清的政府你要找"},{"start":13711.651,"end":13720.942,"text":"從上任蔡英文政府的時候就要講說要2025非核家園要找最終儲存場最終極的儲存場那到目前為止有在做討論嗎"},{"start":13722.725,"end":13745.818,"text":"包委員 那個目前經濟部他是先著重干事儲存的作業那後續呢他也成立了專案辦公室在做選址的工作這個幾年前就錯了但本身現在想問的是賴清德總統一而再再而三面對到這個國際壓力大家都有"},{"start":13746.858,"end":13761.156,"text":"或者說我們能源議題大家都需要用電這個本期開宗明義就講所以我是用一個很理性跟很科學的方式來去講但我想問的是說到底現在政府有沒有做實事就是說他一直強調核廢有解那他的解是什麼意思"},{"start":13763.557,"end":13786.456,"text":"核安會的網站我也去看過核安會也有一個網站報告是講是說國際現在大多數的核廢料採取最後有一個方法叫做深度挖掘有沒有就是找一個地方然後但是很深幾百公尺的挖掘讓它跟民眾土壤水質都沒有任何這個是核安會官網上面的一個報告一個說明"},{"start":13787.617,"end":13816.169,"text":"那我們有沒有想說這樣的方式那還有就是說這樣的方式還是要面臨到一個問題是說那到底位置在哪裡到目前有沒有做這樣的討論那個台電是有一個計畫在執行中那最大的問題還是剛才委員所提到的選址的問題因為有選址這樣的一個困難所以經濟部他才成立專案辦公室先來做立法工作然後後續來推動那有在推動有進度嗎"},{"start":13817.709,"end":13839.785,"text":"不然我覺得賴清德總統這樣子每一次都跟我們講這我都已經快會背了但是哪一件事情不重要可是重點是不能每一次都用口號講完然後這一題永遠無解可是我們核三場持續已經又要再重啟那這樣不就是他嘴巴嗎就是說一方面那個時候恐嚇人民講說核廢料很恐怖啊最好是放你家放我家"},{"start":13840.734,"end":13857.541,"text":"有沒有然後就是很反制的做法好那這個也另一個部分但另外一個部分是說現在重啟核三廠是事實嘛那重啟核三廠已經報進來了那我們同步核廢有解那解要怎麼解"},{"start":13859.108,"end":13879.879,"text":"還是你們的審查會不會審查是說那核三廠如果說再發電那現在核一廠核二廠我們的核廢料放哪裡最終儲存廠在哪裡這會不會列為我們審查的項目之一在我們的剛才講的那個後段的安全審查裡面我們有叫台電公司要說明這部分"},{"start":13880.419,"end":13908.915,"text":"要說明這部分對所以台電在核三廠重啟的時候就會把最終儲存廠給整個核廢料管理含最終處置這部分他們要說明但目前本席的理解他還是打馬虎眼啊他們只有講說中啊中間的中啊所以說像本席的核一廠裡面也有啊乾式儲存的相關還是放在核一廠啊但是最終在哪裡最終的終FinalFinal到底要用什麼樣的方式沒有啊"},{"start":13911.135,"end":13923.524,"text":"方式其實是跟剛才委員所提的這個方式是一樣的但是困難的地方就是選址solution有但是location沒有是不是這樣"},{"start":13925.213,"end":13943.814,"text":"好 主委 本席這樣講完啦 我只想是說就是我們很理性科學因為我很敬重您願意再投入公職來為大家來服務但本席的提到真的 如果說真的有機會的話也跟上位者有權利決策的人真的也建議"},{"start":13944.875,"end":13954.993,"text":"就是說要務實大家務實面對但不是每一次面對環團講一套好聽的話然後面對產業講一套然後面對在野黨講一套"},{"start":13959.336,"end":13977.052,"text":"我是剛剛說這樣子就不是一個健康的態度所以我一開眾名就很肯定你今天願意講出說核電有助電價穩定這樣的一個說法因為這跟國人跟國際上的認知確實是相符合這也是現在國際上的趨勢好不好有沒有補充 各位"},{"start":13979.323,"end":13998.457,"text":"是的 謝謝各位 謝謝委員關心好 那就感謝本席會持續追這議題那我也關心我們的合一場的最終核廢料的部分那我也希望真的我們一起務實的往前邁進好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的詢答也謝謝陳主委"},{"start":14001.485,"end":14025.195,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員林倩琪 林倩琪 林倩琪委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜委員今天詢答登記的委員已發言完畢詢答結束關於本次會議做以下結論報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":14026.115,"end":14052.908,"text":"委員所提的書面資料相關資料均列入記錄刊登公報對於委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料以及未能夠答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答詢原子能法相關的修正草案另定期繼續審查報告委員會今日的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝"},{"start":14072.09,"end":14072.93,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}