{"error":false,"id":["17372"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17372,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17372","日期":"2026-04-22","影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-04-22T08:37:54+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-22T11:02:00+08:00","影片長度":"02:24:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea7a173d75aaeaa133fd98fe59c341977cb1d480c4e0b4ea523003b0d0014d98fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會「18歲公民權修法」公聽會","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:37:54 - 11:02:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1344.8672187500001,"end":1345.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1346.5715937500001,"end":1351.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1352.29221875,"end":1360.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1360.32471875,"end":1365.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1365.1678437500002,"end":1367.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1367.49659375,"end":1369.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1370.1965937500001,"end":1372.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1372.3228437500002,"end":1374.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1375.1072187500001,"end":1380.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1380.7940937500002,"end":1381.4690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1381.7728437500002,"end":1385.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1385.31659375,"end":1386.9534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1387.15596875,"end":1389.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1389.43409375,"end":1391.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1391.4590937500002,"end":1392.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1392.1678437500002,"end":1394.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1395.2559687500002,"end":1397.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1398.2428437500002,"end":1399.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1399.7953437500003,"end":1402.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1402.78221875,"end":1405.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1406.00534375,"end":1406.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1406.6297187500002,"end":1409.4984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1409.81909375,"end":1410.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1411.2703437500002,"end":1413.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1413.86909375,"end":1414.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1414.72971875,"end":1415.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1416.11346875,"end":1417.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1418.0203437500002,"end":1418.8809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1419.0328437500002,"end":1420.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1421.0240937500002,"end":1422.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1423.15034375,"end":1428.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1429.9509687500001,"end":1432.1109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1432.46534375,"end":1435.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1437.7640937500003,"end":1443.0628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1443.3159687500001,"end":1448.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1448.5472187500002,"end":1449.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1451.28096875,"end":1452.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1453.69409375,"end":1458.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1458.3853437500002,"end":1459.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1461.6590937500002,"end":1463.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1463.4478437500002,"end":1467.1097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1468.86471875,"end":1470.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1471.3115937500002,"end":1473.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1473.7247187500002,"end":1475.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1477.43721875,"end":1478.5340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1480.8797187500002,"end":1482.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1483.4278437500002,"end":1485.8240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1485.9590937500002,"end":1487.0728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1491.2915937500002,"end":1494.2953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1494.5484687500002,"end":1495.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1497.7884687500002,"end":1497.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1499.5940937500002,"end":1501.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1501.51784375,"end":1503.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1503.88034375,"end":1504.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1506.4790937500002,"end":1508.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1510.07346875,"end":1512.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1513.71846875,"end":1514.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1515.40596875,"end":1516.0809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1517.3297187500002,"end":1518.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1519.2703437500002,"end":1520.1309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1521.90284375,"end":1523.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1523.70846875,"end":1524.3497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1529.8678437500002,"end":1531.6565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1531.9265937500002,"end":1532.2472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1532.3653437500002,"end":1535.7572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1535.9090937500002,"end":1539.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1539.48659375,"end":1540.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1540.9715937500002,"end":1543.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1543.38471875,"end":1546.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1547.2490937500002,"end":1549.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1549.61159375,"end":1552.3790937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1553.83034375,"end":1556.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1557.18846875,"end":1559.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1559.56784375,"end":1560.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1560.7659687500002,"end":1563.2972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1564.1240937500002,"end":1568.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1576.4765937500001,"end":1589.0653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1589.0822187500003,"end":1590.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1591.5459687500002,"end":1594.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1595.02221875,"end":1599.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1599.5953437500002,"end":1601.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1601.3165937500003,"end":1603.2909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1603.6622187500002,"end":1604.1009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1604.45534375,"end":1605.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1605.83909375,"end":1612.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1614.0572187500002,"end":1624.7390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1625.1440937500001,"end":1634.4590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1634.7459687500002,"end":1644.4828437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1644.7190937500002,"end":1647.5878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1648.3809687500002,"end":1653.6122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1654.6922187500002,"end":1660.5984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1661.2228437500003,"end":1666.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1666.5215937500002,"end":1667.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1668.83346875,"end":1669.1878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1670.0822187500003,"end":1676.1234687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1676.56221875,"end":1688.4590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1689.2690937500001,"end":1693.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1693.8253437500002,"end":1701.4022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1702.1447187500003,"end":1709.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1709.75534375,"end":1713.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1714.2947187500001,"end":1715.0878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1715.23971875,"end":1716.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1716.1847187500002,"end":1718.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1719.05346875,"end":1719.5597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1720.16721875,"end":1725.3309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1725.8203437500001,"end":1728.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1729.9884687500003,"end":1734.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1734.6965937500001,"end":1737.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1737.59909375,"end":1739.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1739.6240937500002,"end":1742.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1742.2734687500001,"end":1746.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1747.0997187500002,"end":1750.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1750.8628437500001,"end":1754.6765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1754.76096875,"end":1755.2503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1762.1015937500001,"end":1764.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1771.50096875,"end":1774.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1774.7072187500003,"end":1780.0059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1780.4278437500002,"end":1782.9590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1783.2122187500001,"end":1787.2284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1787.4309687500001,"end":1791.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1791.90284375,"end":1792.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1793.03346875,"end":1798.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1798.8890937500003,"end":1804.7447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1805.1665937500002,"end":1808.9972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1809.3515937500001,"end":1813.6040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1813.7390937500002,"end":1819.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1819.8140937500002,"end":1824.1509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1825.0115937500002,"end":1831.6097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1832.0147187500002,"end":1835.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1835.6597187500001,"end":1837.6847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1837.9715937500002,"end":1841.4478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1841.7853437500003,"end":1844.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1844.75534375,"end":1846.4090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1846.4934687500001,"end":1847.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1847.8940937500001,"end":1848.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1849.1090937500003,"end":1852.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1852.4840937500003,"end":1855.6734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1856.01096875,"end":1860.3309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1860.53346875,"end":1861.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1861.9509687500001,"end":1863.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1863.4190937500002,"end":1865.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1865.3934687500002,"end":1865.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1866.4734687500002,"end":1867.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1868.2959687500002,"end":1872.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1872.5147187500002,"end":1874.5565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1874.9278437500002,"end":1877.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1877.39159375,"end":1880.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1880.34471875,"end":1882.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1882.8590937500003,"end":1888.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1888.5797187500002,"end":1892.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1892.2247187500002,"end":1896.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1896.6797187500001,"end":1899.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1899.5990937500003,"end":1901.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1901.6409687500002,"end":1906.8553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1906.9734687500002,"end":1914.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1920.42284375,"end":1926.4472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1926.9703437500002,"end":1927.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1927.8309687500002,"end":1929.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1930.3453437500002,"end":1932.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1932.9778437500001,"end":1933.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1936.3022187500003,"end":1940.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1944.0309687500003,"end":1954.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1965.0572187500002,"end":1972.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1973.30909375,"end":1983.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1983.8897187500002,"end":2008.8647187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2009.16846875,"end":2009.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2010.2315937500002,"end":2095.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2096.31096875,"end":2100.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2100.7997187500005,"end":2165.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2165.86971875,"end":2178.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2178.27284375,"end":2190.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2191.8065937500005,"end":2194.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2194.47284375,"end":2194.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2195.0465937500003,"end":2227.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2227.93596875,"end":2229.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2230.5515937500004,"end":2237.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2237.58846875,"end":2253.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2253.9909687500003,"end":2262.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2263.42409375,"end":2265.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2266.07346875,"end":2268.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2269.26284375,"end":2270.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2270.79846875,"end":2279.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2280.2822187500005,"end":2280.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2281.37909375,"end":2287.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2287.6228437500004,"end":2295.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2295.97596875,"end":2304.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2305.3415937500004,"end":2305.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2306.4215937500003,"end":2338.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2339.47971875,"end":2347.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2348.6090937500003,"end":2349.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2349.67221875,"end":2353.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2353.4353437500004,"end":2358.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2359.12221875,"end":2360.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2360.8434687500003,"end":2393.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2393.68221875,"end":2399.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2399.20034375,"end":2399.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2399.94284375,"end":2405.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2406.22034375,"end":2465.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2473.65284375,"end":2476.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2495.9784687500005,"end":2500.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2500.5684687500006,"end":2506.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2507.2509687500005,"end":2517.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2518.13534375,"end":2523.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2524.51409375,"end":2531.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2531.75346875,"end":2535.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2535.9215937500003,"end":2546.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2547.64971875,"end":2551.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2552.0878437500005,"end":2557.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2557.9940937500005,"end":2562.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2565.36846875,"end":2572.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2572.72596875,"end":2577.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2577.43409375,"end":2583.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2583.99846875,"end":2623.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2623.60409375,"end":2626.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2627.4178437500004,"end":2633.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2633.54346875,"end":2640.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2640.81659375,"end":2645.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2646.50346875,"end":2658.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2659.02471875,"end":2660.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2661.85971875,"end":2664.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2665.2178437500006,"end":2669.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2669.14971875,"end":2670.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2670.8709687500004,"end":2680.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2680.7597187500005,"end":2682.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2682.8015937500004,"end":2686.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2687.3240937500004,"end":2691.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2692.0322187500005,"end":2699.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2699.77784375,"end":2709.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2711.59034375,"end":2712.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2713.5309687500003,"end":2714.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2715.01596875,"end":2722.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2722.9978437500004,"end":2725.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2725.7653437500003,"end":2725.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2725.9509687500004,"end":2732.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2732.7684687500005,"end":2738.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2739.18096875,"end":2743.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2744.42909375,"end":2750.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2750.38596875,"end":2756.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2757.25409375,"end":2763.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2764.7634687500004,"end":2769.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2769.57284375,"end":2775.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2775.7322187500004,"end":2785.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2785.70534375,"end":2787.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2787.64596875,"end":2789.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2789.5359687500004,"end":2792.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2793.50159375,"end":2795.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2795.5097187500005,"end":2801.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2802.5465937500003,"end":2808.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2809.51596875,"end":2813.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2814.29159375,"end":2820.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2820.3834687500002,"end":2823.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2823.9440937500003,"end":2831.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2833.37721875,"end":2833.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2833.9509687500004,"end":2834.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2835.92534375,"end":2838.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2839.18221875,"end":2845.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2845.7634687500004,"end":2856.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2858.40284375,"end":2874.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2874.4678437500006,"end":2877.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2877.80909375,"end":2879.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2879.61471875,"end":2882.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2883.0909687500007,"end":2890.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2890.9209687500006,"end":2892.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2892.4903437500006,"end":2905.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2906.2097187500003,"end":2915.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2917.95471875,"end":2922.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2922.6122187500005,"end":2927.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2928.4678437500006,"end":2932.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2933.24346875,"end":2972.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2972.84909375,"end":2985.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2992.7784687500007,"end":2994.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2994.7022187500006,"end":2996.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3005.26596875,"end":3012.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3012.92721875,"end":3016.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3016.48784375,"end":3020.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3020.6222187500007,"end":3021.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3021.8878437500007,"end":3031.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3032.0465937500003,"end":3040.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3040.95659375,"end":3045.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3046.06971875,"end":3050.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3051.2334687500006,"end":3057.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3058.1522187500004,"end":3058.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3059.0634687500005,"end":3059.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3059.8903437500003,"end":3066.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3066.7753437500005,"end":3068.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3069.7959687500006,"end":3071.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3072.3103437500004,"end":3076.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3076.7653437500003,"end":3077.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3078.43596875,"end":3082.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3082.70534375,"end":3087.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3088.0378437500003,"end":3089.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3090.3834687500002,"end":3096.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3096.3065937500005,"end":3100.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3100.3903437500003,"end":3108.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3110.07659375,"end":3119.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3119.7965937500003,"end":3129.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3129.9384687500005,"end":3130.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3131.0184687500005,"end":3136.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3137.24534375,"end":3143.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3143.9784687500005,"end":3146.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3146.29034375,"end":3148.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3149.17596875,"end":3155.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3155.99346875,"end":3160.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3160.7353437500005,"end":3161.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3161.7647187500006,"end":3163.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3163.95846875,"end":3165.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3166.54034375,"end":3173.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3173.89784375,"end":3174.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3175.34909375,"end":3192.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3193.1015937500006,"end":3196.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3197.3203437500006,"end":3199.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3200.00346875,"end":3206.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3207.1415937500005,"end":3213.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3213.80721875,"end":3214.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3215.78159375,"end":3217.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3218.4140937500006,"end":3222.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3223.1222187500007,"end":3234.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3235.13721875,"end":3238.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3239.3222187500005,"end":3246.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3243.1865937500006,"end":3243.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3246.3759687500005,"end":3248.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3248.8397187500004,"end":3253.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3254.12159375,"end":3264.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3265.15784375,"end":3267.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3268.0097187500005,"end":3280.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3280.39596875,"end":3284.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3285.20534375,"end":3285.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3286.2009687500004,"end":3288.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3288.71534375,"end":3291.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3291.6347187500005,"end":3294.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3294.90846875,"end":3301.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3301.8947187500007,"end":3304.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3304.9997187500003,"end":3306.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3306.50159375,"end":3311.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3311.7665937500005,"end":3323.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3324.1697187500004,"end":3328.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3329.40096875,"end":3330.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3330.7509687500005,"end":3336.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3336.5897187500004,"end":3343.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3343.6434687500005,"end":3345.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3346.2928437500004,"end":3348.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3349.9209687500006,"end":3350.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3351.7940937500007,"end":3353.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3353.8865937500004,"end":3358.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3358.8815937500003,"end":3359.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3360.2315937500007,"end":3361.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3362.5772187500006,"end":3363.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3363.92721875,"end":3366.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3367.1334687500002,"end":3371.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3371.87534375,"end":3374.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.1447187500007,"end":3382.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3383.2490937500006,"end":3384.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3385.74659375,"end":3390.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3391.5515937500004,"end":3394.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3396.15846875,"end":3400.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3400.9678437500006,"end":3401.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3402.62159375,"end":3405.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3406.11471875,"end":3409.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3410.14784375,"end":3417.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3418.0622187500003,"end":3419.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3419.91846875,"end":3422.5509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3424.0528437500006,"end":3424.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3425.09909375,"end":3429.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3430.27971875,"end":3434.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3434.97096875,"end":3435.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3435.9665937500004,"end":3436.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3437.0634687500005,"end":3441.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3441.92346875,"end":3445.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3445.28159375,"end":3447.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3447.7959687500006,"end":3454.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3455.6090937500003,"end":3464.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3464.8565937500007,"end":3465.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3466.49346875,"end":3469.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3470.3409687500007,"end":3471.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3472.1465937500006,"end":3479.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3480.12846875,"end":3482.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3483.79034375,"end":3505.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3505.9472187500005,"end":3508.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3516.29159375,"end":3519.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3526.3828437500006,"end":3527.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3527.5303437500006,"end":3541.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3539.4609687500006,"end":3539.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3542.00909375,"end":3554.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3555.7115937500002,"end":3570.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3570.5447187500004,"end":3573.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3574.49346875,"end":3593.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3593.73096875,"end":3605.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3605.3915937500005,"end":3625.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3626.26596875,"end":3632.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3633.0665937500007,"end":3633.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3634.4503437500007,"end":3659.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3659.3915937500005,"end":3673.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3673.34721875,"end":3684.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3686.18909375,"end":3762.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3762.2109687500006,"end":3785.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3786.52784375,"end":3816.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3816.97034375,"end":3824.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3824.9522187500006,"end":3827.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3827.8378437500005,"end":3829.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3830.09909375,"end":3836.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3837.6084687500006,"end":3838.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3839.12721875,"end":3847.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3847.7840937500005,"end":3854.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3854.7028437500003,"end":3863.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3863.66346875,"end":3867.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3868.2197187500005,"end":3871.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3871.86471875,"end":3873.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3874.32846875,"end":3875.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3875.8640937500004,"end":3878.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3879.0028437500005,"end":3882.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3883.0359687500004,"end":3909.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3909.9347187500007,"end":3914.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3914.52471875,"end":3932.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3932.6484687500006,"end":3979.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3979.8478437500007,"end":3996.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4003.7428437500002,"end":4005.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4018.5084687500002,"end":4018.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4020.2803437500006,"end":4039.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4039.39971875,"end":4042.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4042.89284375,"end":4043.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4043.5847187500003,"end":4058.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4058.7384687500007,"end":4122.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4123.251593749999,"end":4125.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4126.10346875,"end":4127.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4127.79096875,"end":4131.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4132.077218750001,"end":4135.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4135.80659375,"end":4149.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4149.407843749999,"end":4154.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4155.0947187500005,"end":4158.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4159.43159375,"end":4160.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4161.034718749999,"end":4163.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4164.173468749999,"end":4167.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4168.020968750001,"end":4175.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4175.88471875,"end":4180.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4180.778468750001,"end":4182.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4182.685343749999,"end":4183.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4183.579718749999,"end":4192.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4192.4559687500005,"end":4220.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4220.805968750001,"end":4229.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4229.88471875,"end":4233.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4233.42846875,"end":4236.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4236.5165937500005,"end":4259.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4259.6522187499995,"end":4271.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4271.8865937499995,"end":4277.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4277.995343750001,"end":4279.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4280.08784375,"end":4292.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4292.946593750001,"end":4293.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4293.43596875,"end":4297.722218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4298.07659375,"end":4302.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4302.86909375,"end":4319.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4319.575343750001,"end":4320.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4320.604718750001,"end":4323.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4323.929093750001,"end":4329.362843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4329.71721875,"end":4334.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4334.475968750001,"end":4354.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4354.4559687500005,"end":4357.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4358.08409375,"end":4361.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4362.032843749999,"end":4363.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4363.534718749999,"end":4367.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4368.1415937500005,"end":4409.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4409.92409375,"end":4418.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4418.44596875,"end":4419.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4419.89721875,"end":4432.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4432.485968749999,"end":4436.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4436.654093749999,"end":4466.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4472.6990937499995,"end":4474.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4474.673468749999,"end":4475.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4476.05721875,"end":4477.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4477.170968750001,"end":4482.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4483.09409375,"end":4484.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4484.849093750001,"end":4488.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4491.29534375,"end":4494.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4496.49284375,"end":4500.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4503.25971875,"end":4506.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4515.67971875,"end":4544.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4516.624718749999,"end":4516.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4517.569718750001,"end":4517.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4544.60346875,"end":4821.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4821.606593750001,"end":4865.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4872.180968750001,"end":4874.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4889.427218750001,"end":4889.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4890.06846875,"end":4891.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4892.329718749999,"end":4894.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4895.36721875,"end":4899.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4899.315968750001,"end":4901.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4902.404093749999,"end":4904.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4904.73284375,"end":4908.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4908.546593749999,"end":4913.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4914.0478437500005,"end":4916.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4917.10221875,"end":4919.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4919.295968750001,"end":4920.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4921.42221875,"end":4921.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4922.08034375,"end":4923.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4924.155968749999,"end":4927.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4927.716593749999,"end":4930.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4930.7372187500005,"end":4933.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4933.437218749999,"end":4937.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4937.9090937500005,"end":4939.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4939.343468749999,"end":4941.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4941.77346875,"end":4953.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4953.72096875,"end":4956.454718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4956.72471875,"end":4959.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4960.55534375,"end":4963.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4963.27221875,"end":4970.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4970.8153437500005,"end":4982.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4982.67846875,"end":4988.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4989.85034375,"end":4990.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4990.964093750001,"end":4998.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4999.435343749999,"end":5015.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5015.92221875,"end":5021.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5022.01409375,"end":5028.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5028.84846875,"end":5037.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5037.53909375,"end":5048.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5048.4403437500005,"end":5049.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5050.27971875,"end":5057.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5058.05909375,"end":5069.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5069.60159375,"end":5078.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5078.798468749999,"end":5080.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5081.295968750001,"end":5095.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5095.302218750001,"end":5118.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5119.062218749999,"end":5124.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5124.61409375,"end":5126.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5127.38159375,"end":5132.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5133.3553437499995,"end":5140.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5141.59034375,"end":5143.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5144.003468750001,"end":5155.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5156.001593749999,"end":5158.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5158.482218749999,"end":5163.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5163.966593749999,"end":5173.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5173.88909375,"end":5185.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5185.904093749999,"end":5198.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5198.982218749999,"end":5207.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5207.706593750001,"end":5218.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5218.47284375,"end":5235.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5235.39846875,"end":5238.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5238.57096875,"end":5239.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5239.904093749999,"end":5248.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5248.98284375,"end":5287.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5287.74471875,"end":5289.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5289.43221875,"end":5294.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5294.46096875,"end":5299.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5300.333468750001,"end":5301.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5301.48096875,"end":5305.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5305.9697187500005,"end":5306.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5307.28596875,"end":5308.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5309.479718750001,"end":5330.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5340.411593750001,"end":5341.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5341.79534375,"end":5343.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5356.628468750001,"end":5394.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5395.13721875,"end":5411.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5411.59034375,"end":5428.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5428.2459687499995,"end":5439.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5439.737843750001,"end":5467.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5467.66596875,"end":5481.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5482.51596875,"end":5487.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5487.747218750001,"end":5519.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5520.231593750001,"end":5530.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5530.55909375,"end":5579.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5580.407843749999,"end":5592.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5593.435343749999,"end":5598.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5599.37534375,"end":5611.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5611.55909375,"end":5622.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5622.966593749999,"end":5652.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5653.37534375,"end":5663.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5664.124718749999,"end":5680.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5680.999718749999,"end":5723.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5724.030968749999,"end":5730.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5730.49409375,"end":5734.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5734.42596875,"end":5738.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5739.404093749999,"end":5743.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5743.33596875,"end":5752.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5752.65096875,"end":5771.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5771.7197187500005,"end":5815.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5822.44596875,"end":5824.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5824.74096875,"end":5825.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5836.18221875,"end":5844.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5844.95721875,"end":5890.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5891.7684687500005,"end":5896.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5896.56096875,"end":5926.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5927.72909375,"end":5946.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5946.91596875,"end":5962.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5962.677218750001,"end":5971.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5971.73909375,"end":5983.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5984.78346875,"end":6009.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6010.635968750001,"end":6035.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6036.91034375,"end":6049.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6050.54534375,"end":6075.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6075.554093750001,"end":6097.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6098.757218750001,"end":6117.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6118.33221875,"end":6147.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6156.57096875,"end":6158.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6172.905968749999,"end":6178.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6179.385968750001,"end":6186.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6187.33409375,"end":6192.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6192.548468750001,"end":6192.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6193.628468750001,"end":6226.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6227.243468750001,"end":6235.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6235.98471875,"end":6244.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6244.79346875,"end":6252.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6252.218468749999,"end":6259.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6259.47471875,"end":6262.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6262.950968749999,"end":6265.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6266.27534375,"end":6266.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6267.05159375,"end":6270.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6271.28721875,"end":6274.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6275.32034375,"end":6280.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6281.530343750001,"end":6286.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6286.542218750001,"end":6294.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6295.064093750001,"end":6307.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6308.429093750001,"end":6308.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6309.20534375,"end":6316.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6316.208468750001,"end":6326.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6326.53596875,"end":6336.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6336.779093749999,"end":6347.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6347.747843749999,"end":6350.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6351.561593750001,"end":6354.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6354.63284375,"end":6357.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6357.889718750001,"end":6360.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6360.99471875,"end":6365.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6365.82096875,"end":6373.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6373.22909375,"end":6374.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6374.849093750001,"end":6390.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6391.403468750001,"end":6396.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6397.073468750001,"end":6406.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6407.249093750001,"end":6408.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6408.700343750001,"end":6415.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6416.007218750001,"end":6422.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6423.887843750001,"end":6434.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6434.87346875,"end":6437.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6437.4384687500005,"end":6439.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6440.982218749999,"end":6447.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6448.42409375,"end":6449.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6450.29721875,"end":6453.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6453.216593749999,"end":6459.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6459.932843750001,"end":6467.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6467.49284375,"end":6481.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6482.44409375,"end":6489.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6490.155968749999,"end":6498.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6498.6103437500005,"end":6504.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6504.76971875,"end":6537.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6537.57471875,"end":6548.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6549.28596875,"end":6560.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6561.19971875,"end":6565.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6565.55346875,"end":6567.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6567.966593749999,"end":6583.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6583.37346875,"end":6585.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6586.022843750001,"end":6590.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6590.528468750001,"end":6592.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6592.31721875,"end":6599.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6600.231593750001,"end":6602.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6602.712218750001,"end":6603.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6603.52221875,"end":6614.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6614.997218750001,"end":6621.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6630.15096875,"end":6632.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6645.15284375,"end":6752.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6752.528468750001,"end":6753.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6754.18221875,"end":6818.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6819.4715937500005,"end":6871.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6878.63534375,"end":6882.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6890.245343750001,"end":6923.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6924.045968750001,"end":6924.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6925.210343750001,"end":6930.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6930.86346875,"end":6952.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6953.138468749999,"end":6983.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6983.935343749999,"end":6985.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6985.3865937499995,"end":6996.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6989.6053437499995,"end":6989.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6997.823468750001,"end":7007.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7008.083468750001,"end":7012.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7012.47096875,"end":7014.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7015.626593750001,"end":7016.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7017.4490937499995,"end":7048.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7048.98846875,"end":7057.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7057.915343750001,"end":7071.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7071.61784375,"end":7082.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7083.1434687500005,"end":7101.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7102.499093750001,"end":7109.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7110.10971875,"end":7115.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7115.982218749999,"end":7141.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7142.374718750001,"end":7145.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7145.81721875,"end":7146.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7146.222218750001,"end":7149.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7149.732218749999,"end":7168.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7169.054093750001,"end":7170.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7171.112843750001,"end":7178.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7179.077843750001,"end":7183.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7183.65096875,"end":7203.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7204.170968750001,"end":7225.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7226.54721875,"end":7235.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7235.87909375,"end":7237.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7237.93784375,"end":7238.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7239.06846875,"end":7241.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7241.751593750001,"end":7245.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7245.970343750001,"end":7257.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7257.95159375,"end":7264.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7264.38096875,"end":7270.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7270.439093750001,"end":7275.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7275.602843750001,"end":7294.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7300.341593749999,"end":7303.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7309.8084687499995,"end":7313.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7314.229718750001,"end":7320.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7320.96284375,"end":7330.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7331.08784375,"end":7351.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7352.16471875,"end":7360.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7360.61909375,"end":7368.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7368.39846875,"end":7370.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7370.72721875,"end":7371.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7371.4697187500005,"end":7396.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7396.765343750001,"end":7427.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7427.44409375,"end":7444.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7444.673468750001,"end":7495.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7495.83846875,"end":7508.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7509.30471875,"end":7514.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7514.282843750001,"end":7525.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7525.589093750001,"end":7526.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7527.19221875,"end":7531.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7531.90034375,"end":7536.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7536.52409375,"end":7561.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7561.718468750001,"end":7578.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7578.222218750001,"end":7582.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7582.27221875,"end":7589.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7590.57471875,"end":7619.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7619.5322187500005,"end":7625.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7626.01221875,"end":7635.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7635.884093750001,"end":7638.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7638.314093750001,"end":7647.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7648.776593750001,"end":7657.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7657.56846875,"end":7660.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7660.673468750001,"end":7669.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7670.005343750001,"end":7679.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7679.91096875,"end":7686.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7686.86346875,"end":7703.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7704.227843750001,"end":7715.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7715.83784375,"end":7725.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7725.28784375,"end":7728.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7728.510968750001,"end":7745.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7745.470343750001,"end":7792.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7800.80346875,"end":7804.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7821.99846875,"end":7838.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7839.02534375,"end":7842.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7842.2147187499995,"end":7848.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7848.76221875,"end":7851.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7851.647843750001,"end":7858.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7859.30909375,"end":7868.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7869.2822187500005,"end":7881.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7882.83284375,"end":7896.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7896.687218750001,"end":7905.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7905.9178437499995,"end":7908.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7908.786593750001,"end":7922.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7914.28784375,"end":7914.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7922.995343750001,"end":7927.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7927.97346875,"end":7929.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7929.593468750001,"end":7930.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7930.6903437500005,"end":7932.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7933.74471875,"end":7938.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7938.62159375,"end":7944.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7944.983468750001,"end":7946.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7947.075968749999,"end":7948.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7948.27409375,"end":7956.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7957.167218750001,"end":7960.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7960.727843750001,"end":7964.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7964.997218750001,"end":7972.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7972.8778437500005,"end":7973.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7973.890343750001,"end":7987.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7988.234093750001,"end":7999.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8000.21534375,"end":8006.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8008.0115937499995,"end":8011.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8011.99409375,"end":8019.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8020.43159375,"end":8030.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8030.843468750001,"end":8033.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8033.67846875,"end":8038.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8038.6903437500005,"end":8045.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8045.9803437499995,"end":8054.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8055.092843750001,"end":8067.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8068.47471875,"end":8069.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8069.099093750001,"end":8072.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8072.524718750001,"end":8074.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8074.482218750001,"end":8077.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8078.73471875,"end":8087.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8087.59409375,"end":8090.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8090.715968750001,"end":8096.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8096.97659375,"end":8111.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8112.99096875,"end":8129.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8131.030343750001,"end":8140.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8140.311593750001,"end":8148.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8148.9853437500005,"end":8151.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8151.5165937500005,"end":8153.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8153.96346875,"end":8168.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8169.2353437500005,"end":8178.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8178.61784375,"end":8192.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8193.602843749999,"end":8193.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8194.78409375,"end":8202.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8202.765968750002,"end":8221.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8222.222843750002,"end":8231.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8232.398468750001,"end":8238.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8245.847843750002,"end":8249.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8253.79596875,"end":8254.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8255.500343750002,"end":8309.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8309.618468750003,"end":8316.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8317.11096875,"end":8358.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8359.29846875,"end":8366.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8367.06096875,"end":8368.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8369.33909375,"end":8392.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8392.440968750001,"end":8393.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8394.65159375,"end":8401.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8402.211593750002,"end":8411.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8411.425343750001,"end":8415.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8416.656593750002,"end":8440.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8440.66971875,"end":8457.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8457.54471875,"end":8486.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8486.687843750002,"end":8494.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8504.457218750002,"end":8513.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8515.25721875,"end":8516.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8520.72471875,"end":8533.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8533.92096875,"end":8551.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8551.977218750002,"end":8558.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8565.477218750002,"end":8567.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8567.637218750002,"end":8568.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8569.324718750002,"end":8569.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8569.78034375,"end":8573.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8574.52221875,"end":8575.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8576.47971875,"end":8581.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8581.457843750002,"end":8599.36221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":86.032,"end":88.521,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":644.582,"end":647.378,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":809.94,"end":811.254,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1000.094,"end":1000.76,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1147.688,"end":1149.277,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1209.292,"end":1210.077,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1344.892,"end":1366.951,"text":"好現在開會世界主要國家對法定投票年齡的規範為何我國選舉年齡定為20歲是否構成對青年參政權制過度限制鑒於民法成年年齡以下修制18歲且18歲青年已需負擔完全刑事責任及各項法律義務是否應條降選舉權年齡以符合權利義務對等原則這些法規規範都值得討論"},{"start":1372.396,"end":1397.193,"text":"再者憲法第130條規定年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權應解釋為憲法賦予公民權的保障或限制如採法律途徑修正總統副總統選舉罷免法及公職人員選舉罷免法下修選舉年齡在現行司法實務下能否經受憲法法庭之核限性審查18歲公民權是否應包含被選舉權"},{"start":1398.314,"end":1404.634,"text":"如下修選舉年齡被選舉前年齡是否應一併調整或兩者可採差異化年齡規範"},{"start":1406.075,"end":1435.667,"text":"至於其他對於18歲公民權配套制度之建議也有需要一併討論為釐清上述討論提綱之相關意義特辦這個本次公聽會邀請專家學者及相關部會共同討論以其建立更完善的制度我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為未來審查法案時的參考那我們現在首先介紹這個學者專家出席委員以及政府機關代表"},{"start":1437.796,"end":1466.932,"text":"我們先介紹我們的學者專家那我就依簽到的先後順序開始介紹第一位我們社團法人台灣青年民主協會發起人也是律師我們何慧慈接下來是我們社團法人台灣少年權益與福利促進聯盟秘書長張宥嘉秘書長下一位是輔仁大學法律學院助理教授姚孟昌助理教授"},{"start":1469.205,"end":1495.641,"text":"東吳大學法學東吳大學法律學系教授胡伯彥教授黃帝隱律師順帶法人台灣民主順帶法人台灣青年民主協會理事長楊之隱理事長國立高雄大學政治法律學系教授廖義明教授"},{"start":1499.797,"end":1524.145,"text":"介紹與會部會官員內政部常務次長吳棠安吳政次民政司檢任視察蔡明謙中央選舉委員會選務處處長王小玲法務部檢察官李子綺教育部青年發展署副處長陳奕聰司法院民事廳法官廖佩玲"},{"start":1530.012,"end":1551.899,"text":"今天公立會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請學者專家發言一出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間8分鐘本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":1554.031,"end":1561.023,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會響鈴一聲發言時間結束則響鈴兩聲我們現在請部會報告我們先請內政部吳常務次長唐安報告"},{"start":1576.502,"end":1604.798,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注與指導表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法的公聽會內政部應要列席報告請說明意見如下也進行指教第一 關於選舉權行使年齡各國規定不一多數民主國家例如美國 加拿大 法國及澳大利亞"},{"start":1606.345,"end":1618.747,"text":"和與我鄰近的國家也包括日本韓國等都均以18歲為刑時選舉權年齡第二憲法第130條總統選罷法11條公職選罷法第14條均有規範中華民國的國民年滿20歲有選舉權另外在青年基本法第20條也規定政府應保障年滿18歲之青年有依法刑時選舉罷免創制覆決之權"},{"start":1634.99,"end":1642.219,"text":"並於該法施行之日起兩年內完備相關法治該法在114年12月26日三讀時也一併通過為積極實現18歲公民權之願景立法院應延續進行修憲程序並完備相關法治之附帶決議"},{"start":1654.758,"end":1668.929,"text":"基於調降選舉投票年齡有助於提高年輕世代來參與公共事務盧大院對選舉權年齡下修至18歲具修憲及修法共識內政部原則尊重三"},{"start":1670.514,"end":1676.819,"text":"總統選爆法第20條的規定年滿40歲得申請登記為總統副總統候選人公職選爆法在第24條也規定選舉人年滿23歲得登記為公職人員候選人但直轄市長縣市長候選人需年滿30歲"},{"start":1689.689,"end":1712.956,"text":"鄉鎮市長原住民區長候選人需年滿26歲上開兩項的選罷法的規定之被選舉權最低年齡系依據憲法第45條及第130條考量民選地方行政首長必須具備一定之社會閱歷與經驗故在依其職位之層級職責程度分別歷定有不同年齡的限制"},{"start":1716.411,"end":1724.198,"text":"世界各國被選舉權的年齡規定不一美國、日本、義大利規定需年滿25歲,使能參選民意代表韓國、德國及英國則規定年滿18歲"},{"start":1730.166,"end":1754.328,"text":"對於被選舉權年齡限制通常高於投票年齡且所要角逐的成績職責之重要性的程度越高對其參選年齡限制也越高原始有關被選舉權年齡是否調降及如何調降敬請參酌各方的意見來審慎予以考量以上說明敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教謝謝"},{"start":1762.128,"end":1791.447,"text":"我們接下來請中選會王小林處長報告主席各位委員各位先生各位女士大家好今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法公聽會那本會應邀列席報告以下請提出本會的三點說明第一點是有關世界主要國家對法定投票年齡的規範那國民達一定年齡使賦予選舉權是世界各國的通例"},{"start":1791.967,"end":1806.035,"text":"那各國關於這個法定年齡多介於16歲到21歲之間那其中又以18歲居多那這個大概跟各國的國情制度習慣相關法律規定跟所處的時代環境有關那第二點是我國選舉權與被選舉權年齡是否調降"},{"start":1809.437,"end":1815.541,"text":"那有關中華民國國民年滿20歲有依法選舉之權那年滿23歲有依法被選舉之權這是憲法第130條所規定那總統副總統選罷法以及公職選罷法也都依照上開規定"},{"start":1825.166,"end":1843.837,"text":"規定了選舉人年滿20歲具有選舉權23歲以上分別具有各種公職人員選舉的被選舉權那立法院曾於113年3月25日三讀通過18歲公民權的修憲案並且在111年11月26日辦理投票完略那投票的結果是未通過"},{"start":1844.818,"end":1865.516,"text":"那有關調降選舉權與被選舉權的行使年齡對於促進青年政治參與具有正面的注意且與公民投票法的年齡一致利益良善但是憲法對於選舉權與被選舉權行使年齡的規定就屬保障規定或是限制規定目前學說見解不一那"},{"start":1866.497,"end":1886.334,"text":"就應採取修法或是應透過修憲程序來辦理那各界尚無共識那建議這些都應該先與釐清第三點是對於選務作業的影響如果選舉人年齡經調降為18歲那選舉人的人數將會增加會涉及到投票所設置選舉人名冊編造作業等選務實務作業的配合"},{"start":1888.656,"end":1913.884,"text":"那另外依照公職人员选举罢免法131条规定本法修正施行前已发布的选举公告的选举或已向主管选举委员会提出罢免案仍适用修正前的规定那115年地方公职人员选举定于115年的11月28日举行投票并定于8月20日发布选举公告那并以序名以上报告敬请各位委员及学者专家指教谢谢"},{"start":1920.632,"end":1936.559,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們補充介紹與會的學者專家我們的社團法人台灣EDU教育協會理事長蔡啟業國立台北大學三峽校區學生會會長陳育仁"},{"start":1944.056,"end":1953.546,"text":"好接下來我們請專家學者發言那剛剛補充再重複一點每位八分鐘那會在結束前一分鐘響鈴那第一位我們請何衛慈顧問發言"},{"start":1965.083,"end":1983.141,"text":"主席各位委員行政機關代表民間團體夥伴學者先進大家好我是台灣青年民主協會的顧問何偉慈律師那今天的這個主題大概是從我2015年參與這個台少盟的18歲公民權的倡議當時我還是一位高中生那十多年過去"},{"start":1983.962,"end":2009.59,"text":"我們在倡議這條路上經歷了很多的事情包含2018年立法院公民投票法下修公民投票年齡到18歲2020年下修民法成年年齡到18歲那2022年也感謝朝野的共識讓我們的修憲案可以在立法院通過很可惜雖然最後人民覆決的時候同意票大於不同意票但可惜離修憲門檻還是有一段的差距那去年"},{"start":2010.771,"end":2030.053,"text":"2025年立法院也通過青年基本法18歲公民權的條文必須要在兩年內國家應該要完備法治賦予18歲公民權18歲的人可以有投票的權利那就產生今天公聽會的很重要的一個問題就是憲法的130條解釋的問題到底能不能不修憲法只修選罷法"},{"start":2031.895,"end":2049.215,"text":"來達成18歲公民權那我們先看看憲法第130條這個條文上面的解釋中華民國國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權那解釋的路徑現在學界的討論社會的討論主要兩種一種認為是限制說認為憲法的規定是年滿20歲的人"},{"start":2050.336,"end":2068.979,"text":"才可以有這個選舉權那為什麼會有解釋的空間因為如果採限制說的話如果今天條文是寫未滿20歲不得享有選舉權或滿20歲使享有選舉權那就沒有任何的解釋的空間必須採限制說但我們的條文的規定的模式是年滿20歲那就有"},{"start":2070.461,"end":2095.694,"text":"另外一種解釋的可能就是說因為憲法是對於人民權利最低最基本最底線的一個保障那憲法的要求是要求立法者一定要給予年滿20歲以上的這個國民要有選舉的權利所以今天如果立法院要上修投票年齡到21歲22歲那顯然會是違憲的但如果要下修投票年齡到18歲甚至更低那有可能"},{"start":2096.554,"end":2114.815,"text":"這是不是一個立法形成的自由很多學者會認為說如果給人民更多的權利應該要從寬解釋那如果今天是限制人民權利的話那是可以從嚴解釋那過去可能會認為說裁保障說認為立法院可以修法不修憲的"},{"start":2116.756,"end":2137.163,"text":"會認為說是少數的學者這樣主張但其實並不是因為在過去更精確來講並不是少數學者有這樣的主張而是過去是沒有太多的學者在討論這個議題那自從2022年修法通過之後我們有整理有撰文或是公開表態發言的這個學者專家才保障說認為修法"},{"start":2138.263,"end":2165.213,"text":"就可以達成18歲公民權的學者專家其實是佔了絕大多數那這個部分也請大院可以參考那財保障說的學者很重要的一個立論基礎特別是在2011年廖元豪老師政大的廖元豪老師就提出這樣的一個論述的路徑就可以請大家思考說大家會認為現在9年國民義務教育或12年國教是一個違憲的教育政策嗎"},{"start":2166.053,"end":2189.189,"text":"那想當然而為什麼會有這樣的提問是因為在我們憲法的160條的第一項裡面其實就有寫到6歲到12歲是一律受基本教育那免納學費那國家如果今天因為政策上面的調整因為預算上面的分配要給更多的國民受到基本教育或是更多的國民來免納學費這不應該是憲法所禁止的一件事情"},{"start":2192.257,"end":2207.834,"text":"從這樣的一個解釋的路徑我們也可以從保障說的這個立場來去看說是可以透過立法來去給人民更多的權利並不應該是憲法或是制憲者當初所要禁止的那接著我們來看歷史解釋因為我們也有去考據一些當時修憲"},{"start":2209.675,"end":2228.271,"text":"當時在憲法制定的時候 究竟這個定在20歲的原因是什麼那我們看了一些制憲的史料 包含當時參與制憲的這個學者專家他們在討論這個20歲的門檻的時候 他其實是因為當時的民法成年年齡是定在20歲 所以"},{"start":2230.589,"end":2253.207,"text":"他們希望把選舉權的年齡跟民法成年年齡綁定認為民法有成年有行為能力的國民在憲法上也應該要保障或是賦予他這個投票權所以現在民法成年年齡既然已經下修到18歲那立法院下修投票年齡到18歲就更具有這個法律上跟憲法上的這個正當性"},{"start":2254.108,"end":2266.263,"text":"那看完這個學者的說法以及這個歷史的解釋那也跟大家分享在法院以及司法實務方面的見解因為剛好在去年就有一位剛滿18歲的青年他認為"},{"start":2270.007,"end":2286.824,"text":"18歲應該要有選舉權所以他去主動的去向選委會申請他希望列入這個投票人的名冊那選委會當然是依照因為選罷法的年齡還是定在20歲所以把他的這個申請駁回那這個青年他有向北高行"},{"start":2287.685,"end":2305.432,"text":"提出這個假處分的申請那雖然最後北高行還是駁回了這個申請但是在裁定的理由裡面其實是寫得非常有趣的他認為在選舉權、罷免權是具有雙重的特性是人民基本權利的保障也是民主憲政體制下的這個制度那要"},{"start":2306.488,"end":2325.917,"text":"充實這個選舉罷免權對於人民的保障啊那必須在立法者在憲法所設定的框架下那這邊憲法所設定的框架在法院的裁定裡面是只有寫到憲法第129條這個普通平等直接無盡民原則並沒有把130條放在他說這是一個憲法的框架下面去討論所以"},{"start":2327.378,"end":2347.155,"text":"其實只要遵守憲法的誡命在這個裁定裡面也有理由裡面也提到說立法者對於選舉制度的形成特別是他把年齡放進去立法者對於選舉制度形成的一環包含投票日投票地點投票方法這些只要在符合憲法的框架下都應該可以透過立法來完成"},{"start":2348.646,"end":2368.025,"text":"那在裁定駁回的最主要的一個理由啦他這邊也有提到說我國選舉制度到底要不要給未滿20歲的國民心事投票權法官是並沒有直接丟憲法的條文說不行給20歲以下的人有投票權他這邊提到說如果於法律沒有修正之前"},{"start":2368.726,"end":2393.08,"text":"那不適合由司法者來做這樣的一個決定所以換句話說在這個裁定裡面行政法院似乎肯認在選舉年齡裡面享有一定程度的立法行程自由然後可否允許未滿20歲國民行使投票權這個部分是可以透過法律來修正來處理的那可能很多人會擔心說會不會有違憲或是有"},{"start":2393.76,"end":2415.14,"text":"被大法官宣告違憲的這個可能那我們可以想想看幾個不同的路徑包含如果是今天是要從人民申請必須要有人民的權利受侵害但我們殊難想像讓更多的人民有投票權會有誰的權利受到侵害所以以人民申請這條路應該是不會有發生的這樣的一個情況那接著是"},{"start":2415.74,"end":2437.222,"text":"如果是由立法委員申請那依照我們過去的事件實務是必須要沒有積極行使沒有投下贊成票的立委才有這個申請的事格對那這是立法委員申請的部分那如果機關行政機關包含行政院或中選會申請的部分那我們也會去思考說如果今天立法院真的三讀通過了這個選罷法的修正案那行政部門是"},{"start":2437.882,"end":2465.578,"text":"有必要去做這樣一個釋憲的申請我自己是很困惑也覺得應該要斟酌的一個部分啦包含政治上面的評估或是社會輿論上面的評估我認為說行政部門應該也是不會去走這樣一個申請的路徑那我這邊支持18歲到20歲立法院透過下修公職人員及總統副總統選罷法讓18到20歲的青年是可以投票來平衡世代之聲跟上國際腳步達成18歲公民權的最後一里路謝謝大家"},{"start":2473.697,"end":2474.963,"text":"我們下一位請張宥嘉秘書長發言"},{"start":2496.762,"end":2522.722,"text":"各位委員各位與會的先進跟各位夥伴大家好今天我站在這裡想要先問大家一個非常核心的問題也是一個非常基礎的問題就是為何我們國家18歲的青少年在社會上必須負起各種義務跟責任但是我們的國家確實是不願意給予他們完整的權利這個問題我想台灣民主發展至今是無可迴避的挑戰"},{"start":2524.554,"end":2545.991,"text":"我們首先看到一個很清楚的事實全球有95%的國家已經保障了18歲公民權那我們看到台灣其實反而成為全球僅剩約5%少數的那一群人這代表什麼這件事情其實不是一個爭議是一個國際共識那甚至現在世界的討論"},{"start":2547.712,"end":2560.572,"text":"已經不是在18歲了而是是不是要下修到16歲那台灣還停留在一個很尷尬的位置就是說我們連18歲都還沒有做到那這其實不是一個制度落後是一個民主參與的時代落差"},{"start":2565.894,"end":2582.736,"text":"我們常常會說一件事情就是說18歲是不是還不夠成熟那其實我們可以看到很多的研究其實已經指出了18歲這件事情其實他們可以做了非常非常多的事情"},{"start":2584.042,"end":2606.16,"text":"那我們就是用來科學實證來回答那根據歐美其實很多的研究發現其實我們可以看2011年他的研究指出16到17歲的公民素養已經到達了成年人的水準那設定18歲的門檻本身就缺乏科學的基礎那2023年這一個學者的研究也進一步指出16到17歲的選民"},{"start":2608.462,"end":2626.442,"text":"他們的政治選擇品質與成年人相當他們投票完全符合自身的政策偏好並不是盲目的投票那美國的研究指出認為就是年輕的選民並非盲從父母的意志而是可以獨立展現出穩定的政治人頭"},{"start":2627.463,"end":2645.704,"text":"更有趣的事情就是告訴我們就是權力賦予的本身就會促進政治的參與在2024年這一篇的研究指出當青少年被賦予投票權之後他們會主動搜尋資訊他們也會增加政治的討論進而提升公民自我的效能感"},{"start":2646.565,"end":2657.878,"text":"那2022年也有研究指出相較已經出社會環境變動大的成年初期16到18歲青少年擁有穩定的生活與學校環境這反而有助於"},{"start":2659.096,"end":2686.247,"text":"提高他們的投票率我們台灣社會現在正在高齡化現行的投票制度不可避免的會讓政策比較偏向年齡高的選民只有下修投票年齡把青年真正在乎的教育就業薪資等社會議題納入核心我們的公共決策才能夠真正的有世代的代表性民主是在建立平等權利的上面"},{"start":2687.367,"end":2708.86,"text":"我想說的是如果我們不會因為某些成年人不排斥某些成年人的投票那我們排除具備同樣決策品質的青少年就完全失去正當性如果我們也不會因為某些成年人員的資訊不足就剝奪他的投票權那為什麼我們要用同樣的理由來去排除18歲呢對不起"},{"start":2715.347,"end":2729.148,"text":"過去我們看見很多台灣現行的一些制度其實台灣已經在進步很多了2017年我們下修了公投的年齡2023年民法成年年齡正式下修"},{"start":2729.81,"end":2756.448,"text":"人民團體發起人的年齡也調整就在去年我們也通過了青年基本法明文賦予18歲公民權的公民選舉罷免創制與複決權這聽起來好像很棒很美好可是事實上相關的法治根本還沒有完備我們青年的參政權上在選舉跟罷免權上仍被打了一個非常大的叉叉"},{"start":2757.448,"end":2763.016,"text":"這成為我們在18歲公民權最後也最關鍵的一塊冰土是未完成的"},{"start":2765.961,"end":2791.487,"text":"現行的制度允許18歲的青年行使創制複決權甚至擔任民法完全的責任卻不給他們選舉跟罷免的權利選舉罷免創制複決是一體的討論缺一不可若未來修法只修半套讓他們在選舉卻沒有辦法罷免這不是另外一個很矛盾的問題嗎所以我們另外要再從賠例來看"},{"start":2794.169,"end":2801.266,"text":"這件事情就是現行的兒少權法第十條也保障了兒少代表在政府委員裡面的比例"},{"start":2802.591,"end":2831.206,"text":"高中 高級中學法在53條裡面也明定要輔導學生成立由選舉產生的學生會這代表什麼政府已經認可在體制下給予18歲以下的兒童及少年參與公共事務的賠利途徑既然18歲以下有賠利的管道20歲以上有完整的投票權那為什麼要讓18到20歲這個區間的青年的政策聲音出現了一個空白期呢"},{"start":2833.379,"end":2855.802,"text":"好我們現在來看另外一個就是我們鄰近的韓國他們在2019年的時候在投票年齡已經降到18歲那首場大選18歲投票率高達67.4%比韓國總平均的投票還高他們更在2021年將參選年齡也降到了18歲"},{"start":2858.427,"end":2878.28,"text":"那結果他們在2022年的地方選舉當中青年當選的大幅度成長了1.7倍甚至出現了18、19歲的候選人這個改變迫使政黨必須要導入一些青年的保障制度讓真正的青年從單純的選民轉變為行動者那我們其實也可以看到的是英國他在2006的選舉"},{"start":2883.177,"end":2898.825,"text":"行政法裡面就將參選年齡降至18歲消除投票與參與的年齡落差強化制度的一致性那瑞士的蘇黎一市州甚至有提過投票16歲參選維持18歲的權力脫鉤設計這些都是我們台灣可以去漸進的漸進式民主充全的模式"},{"start":2906.226,"end":2931.869,"text":"那連聯合國秘書長也有呼籲就是不要只把年輕人當作選民要更看做的是合作的夥伴更需要的是能夠一起在合作那聯合國的CRC委員在第20號意見書裡面也有清楚的在明國家應該要擴大民主的空間包括降低投票年齡"},{"start":2933.32,"end":2952.215,"text":"各位委員總結的以上我們的呼籲其實是非常的清楚的從現行的法規充全而上的角度我們早就應該要填補這一段政策的空白還給18歲青少年完整的公民權讓他們在台灣這塊土地上已經承擔夠多的義務跟責任國家沒有理由繼續剝奪他們應該要有的權利"},{"start":2955.057,"end":2971.869,"text":"當現在世界都在闊步向前行當其他國家都在討論18歲降職16歲的今天台灣真的沒有時間再猶豫跟糾結了我們不能只要求金聖龍娘要愛國要青年承擔責任卻在行使民主權利這一塊把他們拒之門外"},{"start":2973.09,"end":2984.914,"text":"請各位委員要支持競速完成修法把最後一塊的紅色XX拼圖補齊讓台灣真正過上國際的腳步還給18歲青少年完整的公民權 謝謝大家好 我們下一位請姚孟昌教授"},{"start":3005.305,"end":3021.005,"text":"主席與會的先進專家學者以及我們的記者朋友今天非常榮幸能夠接受內政委員會的邀請來參加今天的公聽會那要先向委員召集今天的公聽會意義重大那我想"},{"start":3021.966,"end":3043.596,"text":"委員會先行主義以及委員會啊中心主義這是立法院非常非常好的傳統特別邀請學者專家呢到委員會呢周知眾議然後一起啊提供啊意見來充分討論他讓啊立法院的意識的確能夠回應到憲法第六十三條強調的"},{"start":3046.121,"end":3065.074,"text":"必須要有義才能夠有學而且這個義是充分討論所以我非常非常謝謝廖委員今天不辭辛勞來舉辦今天的會議那今天的公聽會讓我回想在4年前我也參加過類似議題的討論那是在2022年1月的"},{"start":3070.376,"end":3089.353,"text":"这个修宪委员会的公听会那这个议题呢当时已经讨论过那我们当时所有参加的学者包含立法院的各党都有一致的共识也就公民权行使的年龄必须下修来符合国际的一个趋势"},{"start":3090.478,"end":3118.538,"text":"而当时的结论是考虑到宪法明文的规定因此除非透过修宪的方式没有办法达成我们让公民权行使年龄特别是选举权跟被选举权的部分可以有一些变动今天我们讨论选罢法的一个前提是如果宪法给我们一定的空间的确我们在选罢法做修订这是应该做的事情"},{"start":3119.847,"end":3130.175,"text":"那今天涉及到的选罢法的规定了我就暂时略过我最主要是着重在宪法第130条的规定"},{"start":3131.075,"end":3158.537,"text":"中华民国国民年满20岁者有依法选举之权除本宪法及法律别有规定者外年满23岁者有依法被选举之权我想这是今天我们讨论的重点那在2022年的修宪案在复决的时候同意票只有564万票不同意票501万票那两者都没有达到通过门槛961万票"},{"start":3161.857,"end":3174.127,"text":"所以呢當時的修憲呢功虧一簣這是非常非常可惜所以我在修憲委員會當時的公聽會的時候我有提出幾點了也就是說如果我們要"},{"start":3175.487,"end":3195.913,"text":"让公民权下修能够成为全民的共识可能大院必须要在相关的说明以及行政院在相关的说明上面都要一起协力我想这个努力今天还是要继续进行世界主要国家对于法定投票年龄"},{"start":3198.127,"end":3222.185,"text":"剛剛兩位先進都已經提到過大概都已經在16歲左右的確我們的選舉年齡定在20歲是不符時代潮流而這個規定是在80年前制定的憲法明文規定的當年這樣的規定考慮到第一個它跟我們對成年的概念是一致的"},{"start":3223.206,"end":3238.552,"text":"那如今就像刚刚两位先进有提到民法的成年年龄已经下修到18岁而且18岁的青年要负担包含了刑事责任以及各项的法律义务所以我想我非常同意刚刚两位先进的发言"},{"start":3239.452,"end":3267.262,"text":"适时调降选举权的年龄这是必要的这不只是权力义务对等的原则这也是要呼应年轻世代他们要参政的一个诉求而且当公投法的投票年龄已经下降的时候为什么选罢法没有办法跟公投法一起修改我想关键就在于130条宪法的规定这个规定让选举年龄"},{"start":3268.089,"end":3294.39,"text":"已經明定他變成是憲法保留事項這跟民法刑法公投法不一樣那剛剛先進有提到其他國家為什麼可以做這樣的一個變動因為其他國家的選舉年齡並不是規定在憲法他是規定在法律那即使是規定在憲法他們也沒有像台灣有這麼高的一個修憲的門檻所以他們很容易就"},{"start":3295.066,"end":3323.253,"text":"在全民有一定的共識的情況之下就修過那我們的問題是我們有共識卻很難去變動憲法的規定那這個問題在什麼地方就是在2005年那次修憲把那門檻定的那麼高那限制的不只是公民權下修的議題包含我們的政府組織還有包含我們的很多的規定都沒有辦法與時俱進這是我覺得非常遺憾的地方"},{"start":3324.264,"end":3350.176,"text":"因此我在2022年的修憲委員會公聽會的時候我已經提出來也就大院不只是應該要思考公民權下修的問題而已同時也要把修憲門檻的部分也要一併的考慮把這個問題訴諸全民我們一起思考一起來面對那在我的一個發言裡面我回應"},{"start":3352,"end":3372.677,"text":"我們委員會的提綱他問說如果把選舉的年齡透過法律下修會不會發生違憲的問題我認為非常有可能不管是透過立法者原意不管透過立法解釋都會得出這個結論而我強調的是什麼"},{"start":3376.309,"end":3400.536,"text":"這是在過去80年還有包含大院在2022年的修憲委員會的時候我們其實都非常非常清楚要去變動這個選舉權的年齡只能夠透過修憲的方式才進行而那個時候是朝野各黨一致的共識那如果我們當時對於憲法的理解是這樣那今天的變動"},{"start":3402.677,"end":3419.489,"text":"我想連大法官大概都會問一下就是說那請問大院你們解釋憲法的根據是什麼或你們在解釋這個選罷法呢在面對到憲法明文規定的時候你們的態度又是如何所以我個人的認為18歲公民權的這個"},{"start":3424.35,"end":3440.061,"text":"訴求呢還是應該要透過修憲來進行那當然有朋友也提到啊像公投呢都已經下修那為什麼我們還拘泥於這個選舉權因為憲法第17條提到人民的參政權有選舉罷免創制覆決"},{"start":3441.994,"end":3469.482,"text":"可是在130條特別用明定選舉權行使的年齡那這也如同大院過去解釋這是對於行使權能的一種年齡限制選舉權並不是毫無限制所以包含居住的限制各式各樣的條件所以這個限制既然它是憲法明定我們還是要尊重最後我提另外一個配套措施也就是說我們在這個"},{"start":3472.748,"end":3482.675,"text":"宪法复决的时候其实也发生了一个问题谁可以参与宪法复决的投票也是20岁因为呢在我们征修条的规定里面啊"},{"start":3484.074,"end":3508.106,"text":"這個可以參與憲法附決的投票是以有選舉權人為限所以要修改的話連同徵求條文的第一條可能也都要一併的修訂所以我最後呼籲應該要思考像大院委員林益錦委員跟吳佩儀委員他們提出的修憲案應該在這個方面著力才會比較允當以上"},{"start":3516.421,"end":3518.94,"text":"好 我們下一位請胡博焱教授發言"},{"start":3526.771,"end":3554.384,"text":"主席 市長 以及在座各位先進 各位女士先生 各位朋友大家早安 大家好 我是動物大學胡柏彥榮幸有這個機會來針對這個議題來發表自己的一點意見但18歲公民權這件事情其實是我想我們已經討論過很久的事情然後呢 有很多 我今天有很多年輕朋友其實可能也會來跟大家訴說說其實18歲公民權的重要性但是作為一個公法老師 其實好像"},{"start":3555.885,"end":3561.49,"text":"並不是要來面對這個議題我們要來面對一件事情是我們在憲法130條裡面寫的說我們的選舉權是20歲被選舉權是23歲的問題這怎麼解決其實我們憲法剛剛其實姚老師有說這80年前1947年民國36年訂的那如果以當初的時間來看的話這時間會不會"},{"start":3574.534,"end":3589.886,"text":"比較晚其實這時間是合理的為什麼因為美國的憲法第26修正案呢是規定是18歲但是第26修正案是哪一年訂的1971年訂的那此前的第14修正案就是現在川普很討厭那個第14修正案呢是1868年訂的1868年是訂在哪裡就訂在21歲啊"},{"start":3593.789,"end":3601.353,"text":"英國定在哪裡?英國1918年定的時候是定在哪裡?定在21歲英國1918年有普選權的時候是21歲女性是31歲後來再統一調降成21歲到了1969年的時候他才把統一調降為18歲所以如果從1947年來看的話20歲這個年齡不是一個太低的"},{"start":3614.941,"end":3630.189,"text":"不是一個太高的年齡其實是符合當初的一個條件的狀況之下但是如果我們現在來看呢很顯然基本上來講這個年齡其實確實在很多國家都是調降的那這是一個比較高的年齡那如果我們今天另外一個議題有關被選舉權這件事情美國沒有調"},{"start":3634.511,"end":3657.4,"text":"美國在26修正案當中調整的是選舉權被選舉權還是留在什麼憲法本文裡面就剛剛其實次長有報告過其實是25歲30歲眾議員參議員還有總統其實不一樣的時間點那當然我們其實現在目前在憲法裡面的23歲但是我們到選罷法以及總統選罷法當中其實在歲數裡面其實也有另外在做比較高的規定這個可以講"},{"start":3658.8,"end":3684.634,"text":"那我們現在問題怎麼處理130條的問題剛剛其實何律師有講到說其實它有可能可以被解釋成是一個上限或者是一個說法也就是說我們還是有可能在法律上面去把它往下調這件事情我一直以為這個解釋方式當中是一個很多數的解釋方式其實剛剛何律師也有提到但是我查了一下我的ChubbGT跟我的Jim你問一下說有誰主張這件事情他都跳出來一個人叫做廖元豪"},{"start":3686.243,"end":3708.091,"text":"然後在我經過逼問之下呢後來他勉強跳出來一個人叫李彥祖其實我也主張這件事情但是他一直都沒有跟人家講說我主張這件事情我一直以為我是多數見解很顯然其實不是 為什麼因為我們其實內政部在民國一百年3月18號有舉行一個座談會在當初黃司長舉行下參加者有江大樹 黃景堂 蕭文森 陳艾爾等八位老師"},{"start":3708.951,"end":3735.931,"text":"那其實這個結果當中而言 基本上廖炎豪老師其實在後來其實在退上有講 全場其實只有他只有他採這個意見 基本上所有人都說要修憲裡面來講 楊泰順教授說要修憲 王業力老師說他其實修憲過程當中而言就有提到說要降低年齡 只是都沒有過 也就是說當初修憲的 過去的修憲確實是有人提到 也就是沒有過黃警長老師說不行的話 我們就視線看看好了 但是這說法"},{"start":3736.631,"end":3761.79,"text":"蕭文森老師不見了 蕭文森老師說如果丟給他 基本上是霸凌大法官因為他沒有想過說他之後會被提名大法官 不然他就不會這樣講了那江大樹老師其實跟陳艾爾老師都採取 劉建宏老師都採取相同的見解因為陳艾爾老師就為了老師是說 其實自憲史裡面沒有提到這樣子自憲史確實就跟剛剛何俊仕的時候講的因為是扒著一件事 有可能就是扒著當初陳念玲的這件事情"},{"start":3762.39,"end":3785.137,"text":"那確實這就是一個問題所以這個說法就變成但是我沒有要改變見解因為我隨便改變見解這時候大家會說我改變見解是怎麼樣我還是認為從歷史解釋跟文藝解釋某些方面來講這是一個出發點可以去討論這件事情但是在討論這件事情我們要面對一件事情如果我們修法可以過的話那我們上次幹嘛提修憲案"},{"start":3786.581,"end":3805.531,"text":"我們這一屆的立法委員拿出來說我們要修法但是我們上一屆的立法委員說我們就提一個修憲案實際上來講當初修憲公聽會我們也來參加不然我是會主張說不要單獨提這個案去修憲因為一定不會過為什麼一定不會過因為他沒有辦法支撐讓人民可以去投那個修憲案的那個什麼的動力"},{"start":3808.373,"end":3836.433,"text":"而當初的修憲案是當初立法院各黨都同意造成的結果就會變成國民黨民進黨等於被民眾打臉你知道嗎我們好不容易把一個修憲案你知道修憲要出立法院是一件很困難的事情通過之後有共識結果人民沒有共識這個代表一件事情這代表是立法院的各黨派是被打臉了那今天其實主席在這你比較幸運的是你的選區裡面還有六成的人其實是可以接受的"},{"start":3837.72,"end":3837.74,"text":"金門"},{"start":3839.181,"end":3866.911,"text":"有68%的人反對也就是說我們在當初呢差距300萬過關但是實際上來講還有500萬的人是反對這件事情所以這裡最大的困難就是說如果我們認為修法可以通過的話那為什麼上次提修憲案要去提修憲案這件事情是當初的立法委員沒有想清楚還是立法委員就覺得說其實應該要提修憲案才通過而提完被人家否決的結果就是說基本上來講"},{"start":3868.26,"end":3881.941,"text":"我們要面對一件事情這個修憲案在上次被否決被否決之後然後我們現在說我們回來提修法那我們怎麼跟當初否決的人民交代說其實修法就可以了"},{"start":3883.103,"end":3909.283,"text":"如果修法就可以上次就應該跟他講喔所以如果用一個相同的道理來講如果我們行政部門呢覺得有一個東西大家都跟他主張說其實修法規命令就可以解決問題行政部門呢就很gay掰的說不行我覺得這個很慎重我們來修一個法律結果提到立法院的時候立法院就要reject跳然後行政機關回去說我們回去把法規命令修一修就好了我不知道這樣立法院可不可以接受"},{"start":3910.023,"end":3931.456,"text":"如果這樣可以接受的話同樣的我想人民也應該可以接受這件事情但是如果立法院覺得行政機關這件事情其實是沒有尊重到立法院的意向的話同樣的我們當我們放棄了原來已修憲的路徑當中來解決這問題回來用法律案解決這問題的時候我們一樣要回應跟人民講說"},{"start":3932.757,"end":3953.736,"text":"其實法律就可以解決這件事情不用讓你們同意而這個最困難就是如果我們要選擇的時候我們就要選擇到底而上次呢基本上來講我們既然選擇以修憲的方式來解決這樣的問題的時候我們最終還是必須要面對其實還是要以修憲解決問題雖然我們有一個李彥祖老師其實有說過"},{"start":3954.837,"end":3971.613,"text":"過去超過兩年之後基本上來講我們是可以重新再做提案那原來公投法確實是這樣規定但是呢公投法這樣的設計呢並不是說你這個過了之後叫你再去提一個法律案叫你過的時候是說我們還是可以再提其他公投案這件事情"},{"start":3972.333,"end":3996.302,"text":"所以基於我這樣認為是說雖然傳統上面來講我覺得其實本來應該單純透過修法來解決就可以了但是既然我們在上次選擇了以修憲的路徑來解決這個問題的時候我們不能在上次修憲沒有過的時候然後呢再來選擇以修法的方式來解決這個問題這樣的話會漠視這五百多萬反對這件事情的民意以上 謝謝"},{"start":4003.783,"end":4005.365,"text":"好 我們下一位請黃定穎律師發言"},{"start":4020.345,"end":4042.125,"text":"首席各位與會先進媒體朋友對於這一個18歲公民權的議案當然本質問題跟憲法修憲有關那因為憲法130條的命運規定中華民國國民年滿20歲才依法有選舉之權那是法律的憲法的規定那我也贊同剛才博焱老師所講的說上次提的修憲"},{"start":4044.566,"end":4057.311,"text":"卻沒有過之後再提修法會有本質上問題所以根源問題確實是修憲但是我不認為說提案修法會當然抵觸憲法而且提案修選罷法來降低年齡門檻我認為它有正當性"},{"start":4058.812,"end":4082.509,"text":"那我看的是這次提案的不分朝野都有這樣的共識其實跟上次在提出要憲法覆決要立法院四分之三這麼高的門檻都過得出去所以現在提案去修18歲公民權用選罷法的方式去修法那他確實跟當時的立法院的四分之三修憲門檻的朝野的共識應該是相當的那上次在"},{"start":4083.77,"end":4111.428,"text":"憲法修憲的這個覆決案在2022年這一次是很可惜是說它只有564萬張票那沒有突破它的門檻因為我們在修憲門檻上面有雙高門檻這在世界上大概是非常罕見的超穩固憲法也就是說立法院要四分之三公民要一半所以961萬是沒有達到的但是它有564萬如果我們把它拉回到目前現階段的"},{"start":4112.068,"end":4131.665,"text":"用公投的思考來看如果對於立法原則之創製都認為18歲公民權把它思考成立法原則之創製的話就是說我們立法原則上面應該要有18歲公民權如果回歸到我目前的公投法我們500萬票就過關了所以564萬其實如果用公投的方式處理"},{"start":4132.145,"end":4158.352,"text":"他其實是符合民意的趨向也就是民意多數民意在公投的適度之下還是認為18歲公民權是符合多數民意的立法原則的創止那在第二個部分正當性在於我認為在憲法的平等原則我們在談體系正義體系正義的概念是什麼在德國聯邦憲法法院他的簡單的講就是立法者要自我拘束不能說我今天立法都隨意的去做立法他有一個"},{"start":4159.892,"end":4183.11,"text":"一罐的體系所以這樣的立法原則之拘束在我們112年立法院通過了民法修為成年人是18歲那刑法本來就規定成年人是18歲同樣都是18歲我們在立法部門認為18歲的人年輕人就給他認為說他應該要負起完全的行為能力還有完全的責任能力他是一個"},{"start":4184.13,"end":4211.924,"text":"有一個正常的識別的能力有辦法去判斷意識他是完全要對自己負責的在民事責任上面刑事責任上面都一樣所以我們國家在上面認為說18歲的人他就知道如果他犯罪了他就明知道他是違法的行為他是犯罪的行為他就要被判刑他就要如果說在民事上面有相關的侵權責任他也要負起完全的責任所以我們立法部門的思考是說18歲的人是完全的行為能力人要負完全的責任能力"},{"start":4212.304,"end":4232.936,"text":"那同時我們在公投法上面也設計說他對於你看我們公投法明文規定18歲的人他是可以對於國家重大政策立法原則進行創制覆決這是我們公投法上面對於一個18歲的人的思考是他可以完全判斷這個國家的政策他可以完全判斷這個立法原則是不是要做創制跟覆決"},{"start":4233.576,"end":4259.102,"text":"所以我們在立法部門上面對於18歲的人刑事責任也好民事責任也好乃至於公投法對他科語的說他對於國家重大政策的創制覆決或者是立法原則的創制覆決都有這樣的判斷的能力那在體系正義的思考是立法原則的這個體系上面的思考是他要自我拘束啊所以對他用選罷法給他18歲的投票權當然是符合我認為"},{"start":4259.903,"end":4277.443,"text":"符合體系正義也就是說我們立法部門對於自我拘束是思考是民事責任刑事責任公投法上面重大政策的創制覆決立法原則創制覆決都是18歲那給他投票權18歲這個草野上面的立委的提案我認為是符合體系正義的"},{"start":4278.044,"end":4305.941,"text":"另外一個是世代正義的問題世代正義的問題是我們目前是超高齡的這個社會那所以在18歲公民權運動超過20年以來這個目前的超高齡社會如果以世代的整體來講年輕世代要撫養整個國家的這種撫養的責任他的投票權的比例在中高齡相形之下他比較少他會形成公共政策資源分配的不當傾斜"},{"start":4306.841,"end":4333.888,"text":"所以如果從世代正義角度這個思考來落實的話18歲公民權透過選罷法的方式去做修正是符合世代正義價值也就是說在整體的超高齡老人中高齡老人化的這樣的社會中高齡化的社會裡面讓年輕世代他要在分配相關的政策資源的時候不會有不當傾斜所以降低為18歲的公民權其實是符合世代正義的思考"},{"start":4334.528,"end":4356.415,"text":"另外一個是說我認為修憲它不當然違憲是因為如果一個比較我認為是進步的立法如果是進步的立法哪怕真的送到大法官那邊去他也未必當然認為說我相應的去解釋憲法第130條20歲就是相應的20歲如果更加進步的思考是說大法官未必會有這樣的思考認為這樣就是違憲"},{"start":4358.155,"end":4377.676,"text":"那我們看歐美國家在18歲公民權推動也接近半個世紀亞洲國家包括日本在2016年也修法讓18歲有這樣的一個投票的權利韓國也是一樣所以我們台灣目前現階段的因為憲法的明文規定把它僵化的變成20歲才能有投票權"},{"start":4378.437,"end":4392.508,"text":"這件事情其實在國際上來看其實是不是那麼的進步的一個法律那這也凸顯的是說我們現在超高門檻的修憲其實也沒辦法對應上國際的潮流那這個是根源的問題所以回過頭來看是說"},{"start":4394.529,"end":4417.572,"text":"現階段因為朝野都有提案立法委員都有提案我們在憲法訴訟法第49條的規定是說要現有總額的立法委員的四分之一提案才會去假設今天修過了選罷法的18歲的投票權那也要有四分之一的立委當時是反對也就是現在反對那我看起來朝野都是支持的就是說從提案這次的修選罷法"},{"start":4418.553,"end":4447.047,"text":"不論哪一個政黨都有提案這樣的一個支持那支持修選罷法的18歲公民權如果他沒有四分之一以上的人反對他就不會有這樣的一個啟動的機制那我認為行政部門也未必會有這樣的思考我大概看了一下中選會的資料中選會的資料有一個稍微保留的狀態是說他說這個會有造冊上的困難可是我們在公投法都已經公投過了造冊上沒有困難公投法是18歲就可以公投了"},{"start":4447.307,"end":4465.228,"text":"所以當時公投那麼多次了18歲是沒有問題的所以技術上的問題我認為不嚴重當然根源的問題當然還是憲法130條如果能夠修憲當然是修憲是根源解決問題但是如果要通過修法的方式我認為他是有正當性的而且不一定抵觸憲法謝謝"},{"start":4472.925,"end":4499.987,"text":"我們補充介紹一下與會的學者專家我們國立台北大學公共行政記憶政策學系助理教授陳耀祥助理教授歡迎 歡迎回來我們國立政治大學學生會會長陳玉靜台灣青年思潮協會發起人何潔恩台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳廷楚"},{"start":4503.308,"end":4504.214,"text":"我們下一位請楊姿穎理事長發言"},{"start":4516.451,"end":4543.617,"text":"主席委員以及各位委員會 先敬請大家好我是台灣青年民主協會理事長楊姿穎那我想先從一個已經非常清楚的事實開始那在青年基本法通過的過程中呢朝野主要 三個主要政黨都已經表達了對18歲公民權的支持這代表18歲公民權它不只是某一個政黨的主張或是某一方的主張而是立法院形成的跨黨派共識那"},{"start":4544.717,"end":4559.717,"text":"今天的這場公聽會呢其實關鍵不在於要不要做而是在於我們要如何把這個已經成為共識轉化為一個穩定而且可以實行的規定制度那另外我們也想要先回應一下剛剛前面"},{"start":4560.638,"end":4582.694,"text":"先進提到的就是過去的討論親民協當時在遊說各黨立委的時候呢2022年修憲委員會的討論委員們是認為先修憲試試看對於說法也沒有進一步的討論因為我們在2022做出了史上第一次的修憲公投但我們都知道修憲的門檻有多高因而沒有通過也在我們公民團體的預料內"},{"start":4584.155,"end":4601.139,"text":"到2025年青年基本法的討論過程中三黨都明確表示支持直接收法不修憲實現18歲公民權因此親民社的立場是非常的清楚我們全力支持透過修正總統副總統選舉罷免法以及公職人員選舉罷免法兩部法規來實現18歲公民權的修正那因為這件事情本質上是全力以及"},{"start":4610.081,"end":4634.231,"text":"義務的對齊今年的18歲青年已經是領法上完全的行為能力人那也必須承擔完整的刑事責任以及各項法律的義務但在政治上卻仍然被排除在外當一個人被要求對社會負責卻沒有要參與社會不能參與社會決定的方向權利這樣的制度本身就是不對等的那從國際比較來看剛剛佑大姐有提到說18歲公民"},{"start":4638.413,"end":4665.823,"text":"投票是多數民主國家的基本標準台灣如果繼續維持在20歲不只是落後更是在制度上延後了青年進入公共參與的時間但同時我們也想強調一個很重要的態度我們支持18歲公民權但不主張它衝突上路我們制度需要配套包含學務準備行政調整以及更完整的公民教育如果只追求時間點而入列改"},{"start":4666.263,"end":4680.773,"text":"改革的品質它可能削弱改革本身的正當性我們期待的是一個可以長久運作被社會信任的18歲公民權而不是一個匆忙上路的版本接著我也想回應到今天提到中另一個關鍵的問題叫做被選舉權"},{"start":4683.195,"end":4704.453,"text":"當社會開始討論是否要下手選舉年齡的時候其實已經顯現了一個非常重要的訊號台灣社會已經準備好讓公民更直接的參與公共事務如果我們相信18歲的青年有能力做出政治選擇那我們應該更進一步的思考是否也應該讓他們有機會成為被選擇的人因此我們認為被選舉權的年齡確實應該可以開啟下手的討論"},{"start":4708.816,"end":4724.365,"text":"至於具體年齡如何設定是否以不同職務設計差異形成門檻我們認為可以交由立法院相關委員會以及主管機關透過專業與社會對話來形成共識但方向是清楚的讓青年不只是參與者也有機會成為決策者"},{"start":4725.766,"end":4750.316,"text":"最後我們也想要從憲法發展與實務解釋的角度來回應今天提綱中關於憲法第130條的討論目前憲法第130條的規定是說年滿20歲者有依法選舉職權在法律解釋上確實存在不同的見解這究竟是對權力的保障還是對年齡的甚至但我們認為在討論這個問題的時候不應該只停留在條文的字面"},{"start":4751.016,"end":4767.423,"text":"裡面在我國的實務中司法院4至第392號解釋就曾指出憲法並不是一個禁止的概念它是會隨著我們國家與社會的發展在既有的條文之下不斷的透過解釋與適用來回應新的時代情境這提醒我們"},{"start":4769.284,"end":4794.634,"text":"宪法的意义不只是来自于历史文本本身而是需要放在整体秩序与当代价值之中被重新理解与实现同样的我们也可以看到宪法第160条原条文里面有规定6年的国民义务国民教育那在今天台湾已经发展成为12年国教的国家这些发展都说明了一件事情宪法所揭示的制度并不是一成不变的"},{"start":4795.074,"end":4819.219,"text":"而是隨著社會需求不斷的調整與深化因此當我們今天面對憲法第130條時關鍵不只是條文怎麼解釋而是現行制度是否仍然符合當代社會對於公民權的見解我們認為不論最終是透過法律修正或是進一步的憲政程序重點不在於入境本身而在於是否有這個意願將既有的社會共識轉化為實體的"},{"start":4822.373,"end":4843.043,"text":"最後我們想說18歲公民權它不只是讓青年去投票它代表的是我們是否我們這個社會是否真正相信青年是否讓青年願意成為民主的一部分如果青年基本法是價值的宣示那麼18歲公民權它就是一個制度的實踐我們期待立法院能延續既有的跨黨派共識"},{"start":4844.224,"end":4862.85,"text":"稳健推进的修法让这项权利真正落实同时我们也认为应该要对社会公民进行沟通让民众们知道修宪与修法并非冲突最终是为了达到18岁公民权法之后的途径选择让青年人参与能发声也能共同决定台湾的未来谢谢大家"},{"start":4872.23,"end":4901.017,"text":"我們下一位邀請廖毅民教授發言主席各位委員各位先進大家好我是國立高雄大學政治法律學系的廖毅民很榮幸受大院邀請到此公聽會來發言並且提出一些來自南台灣的意見"},{"start":4903.182,"end":4919.998,"text":"針對18歲公民權的修法議題我並不反對任何一項已通過或正在審議的法案而是希望就投票年齡下修至18歲這項重要的民主進步的修法呢提出一個我認為不能迴避的配套問題請各位委員及相關主管機關能夠認真加以正視"},{"start":4921.502,"end":4940.669,"text":"首先我必須非常明確的表示我非常支持將投票年齡下修至18歲這是台灣民主發展的重要里程碑18歲的年輕人已經完成基礎教育許多人也進入大學職場甚至於已經在繳稅服役但有資格也有能力對這個國家的未來表達意見"},{"start":4941.829,"end":4959.338,"text":"也就是這項修法代表國家正式宣告台灣這個社會承認18歲的公民具備參與民主政治的判斷能力與公民資格這一點我沒有任何異議也無法提出任何反對的意見但我個人對這方面的支持還是有條件的"},{"start":4960.575,"end":4988.743,"text":"因為今天的這個議題的重點在於我們立法院是否能夠透過立法來制定一個法律文字明顯違反憲法條文的法律關於這個問題我認為有一個更必須要討論的進一步問題那就是這樣的修法通過之後究竟會不會產生大法官未來在某種案件上必須宣告此一修法是違憲的才能夠符合憲法條文並且能夠平息民怨"},{"start":4989.892,"end":5014.758,"text":"我認為此修法如果通過的話大法官必須如果未來在某些案件上面必須宣告他違憲可能會是因為當國家宣告18歲具有公民資格的同時我們的少年司法制度卻未能做同步檢討因此造成了部分人民有可能因此而受到憲法所保障的權利受到嚴重的侵害"},{"start":5015.97,"end":5036.853,"text":"而這個議題又是涉及到前些日子大院也非常重視的善事法的修法議題現行少年事業處理法對12歲到18歲的未成年人提供了相當程度的司法保護這種制度的立法初衷我完全了解也相當尊重少年的心智尚在發展具有高度的可塑性"},{"start":5037.674,"end":5057.293,"text":"司法介入應以教育、矯正、富規社會為優先而非單純的懲罰這個精神完全沒有錯但這個制度執行結果到現在達到什麼樣的目的呢我們都看到達到了也出現了相當嚴重的制度上的漏洞這個制度上的漏洞被有心人被犯罪人士有系統的利用"},{"start":5058.214,"end":5080.757,"text":"主要就是我們都能看到的詐騙集團與犯罪組織正在利用邵氏法來作為他們招募未成年人的一個非常好的理由近年來台灣詐騙集團、毒品犯人網路以及各類幫派組織刻意大量及系統性的招募未成年人擔任犯罪工作的第一線執行者"},{"start":5081.717,"end":5101.267,"text":"讓少年去擔任詐騙的車手領取被害人的錢提供或出售個人帳號成為洗錢工具運送毒品擔任第一線的運毒員以及在暴力討債或聚眾支持當中衝鋒陷陣為什麼犯罪組織要這樣做答案非常簡單也非常令人不安因為他們知道"},{"start":5101.807,"end":5117.946,"text":"未成年人就算被抓在現行肇事法的保護之下受到法律後果也相當輕微前科紀錄也受到保護對犯罪組織來說使用未成年人的犯罪成本非常低於成年人"},{"start":5119.27,"end":5139.929,"text":"這不是我的推測而是犯罪組織公開對少年講的話他們告訴這些孩子說你還沒成年就算抓他們也沒事少年法院頂多給你保護處分不會關你或者是幫我們做有錢來又不會怎麼樣各位委員當一部保護少年的法律變成犯罪集團招募少年的廣告詞的時候這樣法律執行就出現了嚴重問題"},{"start":5142.25,"end":5152.935,"text":"於是我們必須問的是我們現在的少年保護制度我們現在少年保護制度是否能夠符合我們所期望的將公民權下修到18歲這樣的一種社會的整體共識"},{"start":5156.207,"end":5169.617,"text":"因此我們必須回到今天的議題國家決定將投票年齡下縮到18歲這代表一個非常重要的法律宣示也就是18歲具有公民判斷的能力但在這個同時我們的少年司法制度卻對15歲16歲17歲也就是不到18歲"},{"start":5173.94,"end":5197.974,"text":"即使才少一天的少年犯下嚴重罪行仍然維持於相對輕度的法律後果這產生了一個邏輯上的矛盾也就是說國家說18歲可以決定誰來治理這個國家但制度就說18歲以下犯詐欺、孕吐、暴力犯罪仍然以保護為優先責任相對有限"},{"start":5199.025,"end":5215.199,"text":"我在這裡並不是要說少年不需要保護我也並不是主張說要把所有少年都當作成年來處罰我想說的是當我們提升年輕人的政治權利的時候我們也應該同時同步的提升他們的法律責任讓權利與責任能夠真正對等"},{"start":5218.522,"end":5238.877,"text":"一個只享有權力卻不需要承擔對等責任的制度設計並不是在保護年輕人而是給年輕人傳遞一個錯誤的訊號那就是在台灣年輕人可以享有權力但不必承擔責任這樣的訊號對年輕人的法治來說是有害的因此我有以下幾個具體主張首先"},{"start":5239.958,"end":5269.117,"text":"我主張少年事件的這個責任分級的話應該與我們這次的這個18歲公民權下修這個議題能夠綁在一起現行肇事法對12歲至18歲的少年基本上才統一的保護主義框架但12歲到17歲在心智、成熟、判斷能力、社會經驗上其實有著相當大的差異我建議將公民權下修到18歲的同時更應考慮建立更細緻的年齡分級責任制度"},{"start":5269.637,"end":5288.127,"text":"比方說12歲到14歲應該維持保護教育與矯正為主的處理原則15歲到17歲對於重大故意犯罪尤其是詐欺、毒品、組織犯罪、暴力犯罪應該建立更明確更有效的責任機制以及接近18歲者"},{"start":5289.748,"end":5308.767,"text":"對特定的嚴重犯罪因嚴育引入或更接近成人責任的處理方式這樣的分級才能夠保留少年保護的精神也能夠讓責任制度符合現實第二個我主張要明文加重利用少年犯罪的這個成年人的刑責我必須強調少年往往是被利用的"},{"start":5309.648,"end":5310.589,"text":"以上是我個人的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5340.435,"end":5342.784,"text":"那我們下一位邀請蔡企業理事長發言"},{"start":5356.65,"end":5376.666,"text":"好 祝熙那在座各位關心18歲公民權的各位夥伴大家早安 大家好我是臺灣EDO教育協會的理事長蔡奇業那首先我想要代表協會的立場表達我們當然支持以修法的方式來推動並且完成18歲公民權那回到今天的討論提綱其實我想我們先從國際比較的角度來談起"},{"start":5377.907,"end":5392.786,"text":"其實近代民主國家就18歲公民權的立法時程來看降低投票年齡是一個很顯著的趨勢就如同剛剛茶余慧先進所提到的那早在1946年其實捷克就已經率先的將投票年齡由21歲降到18歲"},{"start":5395.189,"end":5410.129,"text":"那其後在1960年代從英國、加拿大、德國到美國這些我們目前所想見的民主國家其實也基於權力跟義務對等的概念我們已經展開了這一波的降低投票年齡的運動"},{"start":5411.673,"end":5438.384,"text":"那在這之後其實也逐步擴展到全球目前世界上絕大多數的民主國家我們已知的都已經將18歲作為投票年齡那甚至是像奧地利其實在2007年也進一步的將投票年齡下修到16歲那最近2024年的歐洲議會選舉其實包含比利時、德國、奧地利、馬爾他等四個國家的最低投票年齡也是16歲"},{"start":5440.555,"end":5466.203,"text":"參考鄰近國家日本在2016年的時候他們在參議院選舉的時候18歲開始有了投票權韓國跟馬來西亞也在2019年的時候完成了改革把投票年齡下修到18歲所以我想就世界上主要的國家對於選舉年齡的規範上毫無疑問的是最低投票年齡的共識是以18歲為主的"},{"start":5468.171,"end":5485.978,"text":"甚至許多國家的討論都是聚焦在我們是否要向下邁向16歲所以台灣目前是東亞唯一一個人將公職人員的選舉權的門檻設在20歲的民族國家我們也是少數把最近投票年齡定在高於18歲的一個國家"},{"start":5487.782,"end":5508.087,"text":"那再來我想從整個我國的整個法治體系來看其實民法在2023年也已經把成年年齡下修到18歲那其實談到兒少權法我們也是以18歲作為兒少與成人的分界那再來其實去年剛通過的青年基本法我們也明確的把青年的定義定義在18歲以上"},{"start":5510.187,"end":5535.409,"text":"所以把選舉權的年齡調降到18歲不只是跟國際社會接軌我們也是讓18歲在權力跟義務上相符那當然今天的重點應該是我們是不是可以透過修法的方式來處理18歲公民權那就青年團體的立場來講我們當然是明確支持修法的路徑但我想我們必須要再進一步釐清的其實正如剛才余慧仙靜所提到的"},{"start":5535.789,"end":5555.845,"text":"在2022年的立法院討論修憲最後的共識其實是因為在修憲上更有共識所以我們才採取了修憲的路徑但是當時並沒有進一步討論修法的可能可是其實從民間團體的立場來說一直我們都有主張修法跟修憲"},{"start":5556.545,"end":5579.142,"text":"的這個可能性所以其實這個是在當時的脈絡下修憲的支持相對比較有共識的情況下才採取修憲的入境那特別是到2022年的修憲覆決其實在960萬票的這個高門檻下其實同意票仍然大於不同意票所以其實在社會上也是有多數民意的支持"},{"start":5580.458,"end":5597.196,"text":"那所以我想剛才其實有議會先進有提到這可能會有這個變相打臉立法院與民意的問題但我想在這個朝野跨黨派有共識的情況下那其實我們也在社會共識具有多數民意的支持下我想並沒有所謂打臉的問題"},{"start":5599.438,"end":5616.76,"text":"特別是其實這個修憲覆決沒有辦法通過的原因並不是因為民意不支持而是制度上修憲的門檻過高導致我們無法實現18歲公民權那到現在其實我們看到剛才的所有的與會專家學者其實都支持18歲公民權"},{"start":5618.041,"end":5639.562,"text":"但是到今天我們定下的這個修憲門檻我想目前想要改變是恐怕很困難的所以如果我們都是支持18歲公民權的這個前提下那我們應該在憲法有解釋空間的情況下我們盡速的來通過跟實施但我想否則我們可以預見的是"},{"start":5640.864,"end":5647.353,"text":"在大家就算都支持18歲公民權的前提下我們很有可能在未來的10年20年因為憲法上的問題而導致我們18歲公民權遲遲的沒有辦法落實"},{"start":5653.81,"end":5680.239,"text":"至於今天另外一個討論到18歲公務權是否包含被選舉權的部分我們的立場是我們認為應該要納入而且在制度上其實也有正當性我想首先當然就如同剛才所講的法律上既然已經承認18歲具備完全的行為能力那就代表18歲應該具備承擔權利跟義務的這樣的一個基本的能力也應該具備基本參政的權利"},{"start":5681.109,"end":5699.817,"text":"所以對於18歲公民權在被選舉權的部分我想有一部分的誤解必須要來釐清是18歲就算具有被選舉權我們在未來定定之後其實也不代表18歲就可以毫無限制的參選就如同剛才大家所討論到的其實"},{"start":5701.238,"end":5729.637,"text":"目前包含憲法第45條是規範包含總統副總統的候選人年齡需年滿40歲那目前的工作人員選舉罷免法第24條也有規定直轄市長跟縣市長候選年齡需要滿30歲那鄉鎮市長跟這個原住民區長的候選人也必須要年滿26歲所以以上的這一些這個不論是憲法也好或是這個法律也好在沒有更動的情況下面我們目前的被選舉"},{"start":5730.778,"end":5750.543,"text":"年齡的改變並不會隨之的發生那所以我想在18歲具備選舉權的這個部分其實最終的決定權還是掌握在選民的手中那選民的選擇認為這個候選人是不是具備具有合適能夠事任這個位置的這個"},{"start":5753.111,"end":5770.446,"text":"問題其實才是候選人是否有辦法擔任公職的原因那所以如果選民最後投票否決了這樣子的候選人認為他不適任那我想這個可能才是問題的本因我們不應該因為這樣子而限制在被選舉人的年齡"},{"start":5771.738,"end":5800.152,"text":"那最後關於這個未來制度的推動其實我想除了既有的公民教育應該要在強化以外其實在模擬投票等等的制度也應該在未來假設通過18歲公民權的情況下我們要協助首投組做整個包括首席選舉流程的一個動作那我們也應該要繼續的承擔不論是中選會或是教育部都應該要來做選民的教育的一個責任那我們建立一個更完整的知識體系"},{"start":5801.192,"end":5815.405,"text":"我想最後最重要的是18歲公民權的討論其實也不只是年齡的調整是我們怎麼樣看待青年在這個社會中的位置所以我們還是呼籲立法院應該要盡速的來拍攝18歲公民權的修法草案謝謝大家我們下一位邀請陳育仁會長發言"},{"start":5836.409,"end":5863.064,"text":"主席在座各位委員然後青年團體夥伴與會先進 大家好我是國立台北大學生涯校育學生會會長陳育仁首先我想要強調就是朝野對於18歲公民權這件事情是有高度共識的那也在這樣子的基礎上面通過了早先通過了青年基本法那也在第20條條文內明定兩年內需要完備相關的法制那也因此有今天這樣子的公聽會那讓大家來表達相關的意見"},{"start":5864.164,"end":5889.966,"text":"那作為一個大學學生或會長我們在大學校園裡面代表學生那跟校方爭取權益那我們也相信民主能夠深化相信民主治理跟公民教育能夠成為推動社會前進的動力在大學學生自治組織裡面雖然有一部分是其他的政治體制但絕大多數都是採取直選會長這件事情也是我們繼高中之後在校園裡面人就能夠進行類似於縣市首長或總統投票選舉的行為"},{"start":5891.82,"end":5920.007,"text":"那在高中也是類似的情況但高中與大學有幾乎類似的不一樣的現象高中生其實沒有投票權對於政治的討論也有所不同但我想大家對於政治的這份想參與的熱忱是不變的那2022年的時候那個時候我只是一個高中生那我在新聞上面看到修憲公投送出立法院的那一天我開始想像自己在18歲的時候能夠投下人生中第一張選票的那一刻那我想跟我差不多年紀的人都有類似這樣子的想像然後現實是由於修憲的門檻高到幾乎實質使修憲廢除"},{"start":5922.307,"end":5944.439,"text":"即使有564萬張的同意票仍然距離門檻有一大截近年來我們開始思考需要落實18歲公民權究竟需不需要修憲憲法130條對於所謂國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權究竟是一個限制還是最低限度的保障那對於憲法130條有解釋空間可以修法來實現18歲公民權"},{"start":5947.66,"end":5970.869,"text":"從2011年耀元豪老師在內政部座談會初步提出後期間經歷2022年的修憲公投讓學界注意到這個議題那以及2024年的憲法學會的專題研討會許多學者都紛紛表態已經成為主流穩定的見解包含陳欣明前大法官、台大林明星、台大嚴絕安、政大林佳和、台大李念祖、中人林孟然"},{"start":5972.049,"end":5983.32,"text":"政大陳靜惠、世新謝碩俊等十幾位老師都持此見解就算再加上醫療會保留太多的老師仍然是明顯多數已經是公法學界主流穩定的見解"},{"start":5984.847,"end":6009.005,"text":"近年來,由於科技的進步,教育水準的上升,世界各國對於成年的定義逐步下調至18歲,除了可能對於身體造成危害,如煙酒等在各國有不同的限制之外,不論在刑事、民事、納稅以及最重要的選舉前,幾乎都設定在18歲。而台灣在逐步下調民事、稅務、金融等等的限制之後,也應該要配合其他義務的下調,讓18歲的青年能夠有相對應的權利。"},{"start":6010.68,"end":6033.12,"text":"在這樣子的基礎下究竟需不需要修憲我想也是今天最大的爭點但在這樣子的國際情勢以及環境公法學者們的見解與意見都一再告訴我們130條所謂的國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權應該要是基本權的保障而不是限制20歲以下的青年不得投票不論是為了使權利義務相符或是擴大青年參政我都認為應該也必須這麼做讓18歲公民權可以落地執行"},{"start":6036.943,"end":6049.652,"text":"我們也認為18歲的選舉權涉及兩部選罷法的部分只要修法就好在文獻的疑慮上面也有學術的支持而國際情勢也告訴我們18歲公民權是世界的趨勢是必須要做的一件事情"},{"start":6050.595,"end":6074.371,"text":"那我們也觀察到在大學校園裡面由於公民權尚且界定在20歲20歲以上的人有投票權20歲以下的人沒有投票權在校園的討論中大家對政治的想像跟理解就有一點不一樣例如說總統大學的時候我們觀察到有投票權的同學對於能夠投票這件事情是感到驕傲的對於民主這件事情是感到期待的也對總統大學是有所期待相對來說沒有投票權的同學在這方面就少了一點動機"},{"start":6075.692,"end":6096.98,"text":"那我們都知道人是需要動機去驅使才能夠有所進步才會對某件事情感到興趣那我們需要父權才能夠使青年對於公共事務對於政治更有動力18歲的青年對於公共事務對於政治的了解跟20歲的青年並沒有太大的差異而在這樣的前提下又有相對應的義務需要負責的情況下為什麼需要把限制設定在20歲呢"},{"start":6098.803,"end":6117.394,"text":"最後我想再次重申憲法130條應該是保障基本權而不是限制在憲法解釋上如果需要追溯到制憲者的原意那憲法作為一部根本大法將無法與時俱進需要經常修改如果能夠以語意來解釋讓國際趨勢權責相符的公民權下調至18歲也才是真正的明智之舉"},{"start":6118.414,"end":6147.148,"text":"三十年後的台灣社會答案就在今日的校園通過兩部選罷法的修法讓十八歲的青年學生能夠參與選舉參與共共事務是世界的趨勢也是台灣未來應該要朝向的方向同時為了要呼籲行政院跟立院朝野應該要呼應時代的趨勢也配合青年基本法在普遍認為和諧的情況下儘速完成兩部選罷法的三讀使權責相符讓2022年時五百六十四萬的民意能夠落實謝謝大家我是國立台北大學三大校區學生會會長陳玉文"},{"start":6156.636,"end":6158.696,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請陳耀祥助理教授"},{"start":6173.13,"end":6192.67,"text":"主席我們各位與會的學者專家各機關的代表大家早安首先感謝大會的邀請今天針對這個18歲公民權修法這個部分來表達個人的意見那其實前面已經發言很多我想有一些相同意見我就不再重複表達那"},{"start":6193.922,"end":6202.839,"text":"誠如剛才有很多的學徒專家或是我們青年的代表裡面所提到的那憲法我們第17條裡面就明文規定說人民有選舉罷免創知覆覺之權利"},{"start":6205.103,"end":6226.221,"text":"也就是說我們則參政權那為什麼憲法裡面會第12章特別針對選舉罷免創制復決呢又訂立一個制度的規定這是比較少人提到的那我查了一下這個我們中華民國的制憲史這裡有帶一個雷正先生當時所寫的這個政治協商會議憲法查裡面特別提到"},{"start":6227.342,"end":6234.106,"text":"其實我們在憲法裡面有一些關於這個年紀或是有一些數字的設計比如說我們憲法第8條有24小時的規定那我們憲法第45條關於總統副總統選舉人的年齡的基本的門檻有40歲的規定"},{"start":6244.991,"end":6266.659,"text":"或是包括我們130條各位都知道129條到136條這個是特別針對選舉這個部分這個部分是在憲法所謂的修正原則的第10點裡面提到這個議題簡單來講他就是要把這個部分寫清楚那為什麼要寫清楚比如說他寫清楚包括除了選舉權20歲被選舉權23歲來講的話"},{"start":6271.328,"end":6294.568,"text":"那主要是當時政黨之間彼此不信任就是說原來在國民黨所提的五五憲潮裡面來講的話被選舉選是25歲可是那為什麼這些民主黨派包括社民黨或者是包括青年黨代表認為國民黨原來這種所謂的國民大會所謂權能區分制度這種間接民權並不符合民主的潮流"},{"start":6295.248,"end":6307.419,"text":"所以他們引用西方的這種憲政民主議會民主的方式要求這個所謂的直接民主選舉所以特別針對選舉這個制度在憲法第12章裡面有這個特別的規定"},{"start":6308.493,"end":6328.147,"text":"那前面剛剛有學者也提到的確當時來講為什麼是20歲是因為跟成年是結合在一起的所以成年人來講的話他也有已經有開始所謂的自己的完全的行為能力所以他也可以參與公共事務是這樣結合在一起的可是為什麼把20歲寫清楚"},{"start":6328.747,"end":6356.937,"text":"就是怕20歲如果沒有寫清楚來講的話就像我們憲法第8條的24小時總統的40歲的這個規定來講擔心了當時的執政黨萬一透過修法來講又把這個東西做更動所以當時來講的話他致謝所有他的時空背景所以20歲我覺得會什麼會寫清楚這個部分比較少提到那我們目前大家碰到這個議題是我剛才所講是80年前的這種時空的狀況"},{"start":6358.31,"end":6378,"text":"比如說我個人來講 我當然贊成這個選舉的投票的年齡下修為18歲 這是我贊成的甚至以公民的選舉的 公民的各種所謂的權利來講的話應該讓青年人有參與這個我們公共政策參與整個國家決策的機會跟制度 這個我是絕對贊成的"},{"start":6380.141,"end":6407.935,"text":"這個涉及到我們所講叫世代爭議的議題其實我們今天在談18歲公民權其實不是只是單純選舉的問題而已還包括各種世代爭議的議題我認為來講的話在這個蘇維時代裡面讓年輕人更早參與整個公共政策尤其選舉之後是贊成可是我們現在面對的困境是說我們在2020年舉行過修憲的公投沒過那今天要用修法的方式來處理要怎麼去處理這個議題我個人看法"},{"start":6408.815,"end":6421.356,"text":"今天來講的話的確修法會有在整個有沒有違憲有沒有合憲性的疑慮的問題那是不是當然違憲呢這個當然我們有個人見仁見智但是我有一個想法一個建議"},{"start":6423.976,"end":6439.625,"text":"立法院如果要修改這個選罷法把它下調為18歲來講的話我認為唯一目前來講比較可行的方法是透過申請制限的方法去處理這個問題因為有一個非常重要的點就是說當時我們在制限的時候"},{"start":6441.115,"end":6462.82,"text":"是把這個所謂行使這個所謂選舉罷免創制複決的年齡是跟成年是掛鉤在一起的那現在呢成年的年紀下降了那憲法這個20歲來講的話從目的解釋上來講是不是有可能下降為18歲唯一有這種方法來講的話透過大法官解釋呢"},{"start":6463.42,"end":6481.795,"text":"或許是有一條可能的活路我覺得目前來講因為以我們2005年修憲以後來講整個修憲的程序基本上是被凍結了當然因為我們台灣也不可否認我們對國家認同有不同的重大的歧義所以修憲的門檻是非常高的"},{"start":6482.515,"end":6502.408,"text":"那所以我這裡也跟我們這很多年輕人有些在推動NGO這種所謂的青年活動的青年代表們建議就是說我們對話的對象不是只有青年人而且是各個世代的人 各個年紀的人然後一個非常重要的議題是說當我們在處理這個議題的時候來講的話"},{"start":6505.141,"end":6533.253,"text":"不是只是所謂選舉權應該更擴大那當然大院如果要修改這個所謂相關的選罷法把它擴大降低為18歲也一定會面臨到我個人認為會面臨到這個所謂有沒有違憲的這個挑戰那這個時候呢我認為讓大法官就我們這個憲法的這個部分表示意見這是將來可惜的一個方法因為我們的憲法解釋裡面來講話除了文藝解釋以外另外一個就是所謂的"},{"start":6533.686,"end":6559.852,"text":"目的解釋或是歷史解釋那我剛才所談的部分來講主要是從我們歷史在制限過程裡面為什麼20歲會寫得這麼清楚那就是因為當時制限者彼此之間認為不是那麼的互信那麼高把它寫清楚大家比較不會未來來講的話可能透過修法去把它動到這個部分那當時的預想剛好跟我們現在的想像剛好是顛倒的"},{"start":6561.272,"end":6585.307,"text":"我現在想像反而是說透過修法讓他更有彈性所以未來不管是說我們再繼續推動修憲也好或是大院再透過修法也好我是建議的不一定要把它寫成20歲或是18歲只要是成年就可以去連結這反而是符合我們憲法的本質因為誰知道我們現在成年是18歲這樣成年搞不好16歲就成年了"},{"start":6586.067,"end":6608.884,"text":"那與其這樣子每年為了這種18歲20歲16歲這種東西來講反而從目的上解釋說青年他是成年了成年除了可以對自己的行為負責作為一個公民可以所謂自我自己的私人的權利義務以外他已經成熟到可以參與公共政策我覺得把他跟成年扣合在一起"},{"start":6609.504,"end":6620.811,"text":"這也符合制憲者當時制憲的目的也符合現在全世界對於青年參政的潮流以上個人的淺見 敬請陳卓參我們下一位請陳育進會長發言"},{"start":6645.448,"end":6668.176,"text":"感謝教委各位先進各位與會代表大家早安我是政大學生會長陳玉靜蒙前述各位諸位前輩的啟發我個人也受益良多也容我在此基礎上都能提出兩項淺薄的個人觀察第一個想要討論的是公民能力的形成機制作為目前大學學生會長想優先強調的是無可辯駁的"},{"start":6669.116,"end":6688.868,"text":"現在大學部的學生就是一半落在18至19歲的區間另一半落在20到21歲這個區間這樣那又使然上其實我們可以看到無論從課堂到課室外廣義上的政治參與及實踐上這一半的學生也已經具備足夠的知識能力且他們有不遜於大學部高年級學生的參與動能"},{"start":6690.089,"end":6709.046,"text":"除此之外縱觀而言就是今天可以看到反對降低投票年齡的理由比較大宗是擔心18歲青年他們是否具備足夠判斷能力當然這樣的質疑本身無疑是預設了就是青年的判斷力將自然而然隨年齡增長然而回扣我們對於民主制度的期待和想像"},{"start":6709.666,"end":6731.572,"text":"應該也理應包含提供一個透過實踐培養政治判斷的場域舉凡投票、辯論、資訊查證還有問責的能力都難以在隔離的環境中習得這因為伴隨後果的這個真實選舉的結果會實際影響權力的分配、決定政策的走向作為參與者因而會更有動機去權衡利弊"},{"start":6732.632,"end":6753.761,"text":"來為自己的判斷負責這種基於對後果有所體認而產生的意識是我認為從其他管道上根本上無法複製跟取代的一級如果我們今天將同票權設定在20歲的話其實實在的在源頭限制了18歲到19歲這群青年培養就是相應能力的可能"},{"start":6754.301,"end":6769.694,"text":"因為公民能力也不會在20歲的生日前夜理所當然的降臨他可能更需要在真實的選舉過程中逐步的積累所以在此推遲參與無異於是在從源頭限制了公民能力的形成"},{"start":6770.374,"end":6797.027,"text":"那第二個想要討論的是就是涉及這個民主制度的基本原則就是在前面的討論脈絡中也經常被提及的權利和義務應該相符這件事情那檢視我國盛行的法律規範大致刑法到更生活層面的道路安全規範我們都可以看到對18歲以上的青年已經賦予了更多的義務跟期待包含期待他們可以為自身的財務紀律那大到人生大事全權的負責"},{"start":6798.007,"end":6818.681,"text":"也認可他們有能力可以進入公家機關為民服務但比較吊詭的是同樣是這一群十八、十九歲的青年卻被排除在大選的選舉之外正如柯智恩委員跟陳吉威委員在提案說明中所提到的已然產生了自使權利與義務顯不相當有責任但無權利之不對稱之情形"},{"start":6819.562,"end":6847.665,"text":"進一步而言在涉及重大政策比如高校資源分配兵役制度和防世政策這些影響期間可以自這群青年正在經歷的此時此刻延伸到十至二十年後的將來的時候作為深受影響的群體這些政策被審議被表決和執行的過程中卻難以發揮直接影響力所以我認為在從民主問責的角度來看這樣的制度安排顯然是有可以進一步討論檢討跟調整的空間的"},{"start":6849.746,"end":6869.705,"text":"眾上所述大方向向個人非常支持將投票年齡調整至18歲這除了是對於制度能夠持續保持靈活度能夠不排除滾動式調整的可能性的期待之外也是我認為在民主實踐中能夠為青年逐步培養判斷與承擔能力的一個參與起點 謝謝"},{"start":6878.663,"end":6882.586,"text":"我們下一位邀請鍾嘉賓委員發言 那麼委員發言時間為5分鐘謝謝主席 今天能夠看到18歲公民權修法進入公聽會而且這個公聽會有諸多的青年學子來代表發言我想非常的於肯定那也看到過去熟悉的學者專家也在這個議題上"},{"start":6907.143,"end":6922.942,"text":"有或許意見不盡相同但是用心都是一樣可貴那我想作為立法院的委員我們來回顧一下在18歲公民權這個議題從我1996年進入國民大會擔任第三屆國大代表以來就在爭取這個"},{"start":6925.29,"end":6952.353,"text":"公民的參政權能夠符合社會的需要調到18歲但是一晃眼30年過去了所以我們在看到底18歲公民權在現在跟當年有什麼差別其實我們可以討論到18歲公民權剛聽了幾位年輕年代表的意見大概有一個從實然上現在18歲的年輕人在很多國家都是"},{"start":6953.194,"end":6971.842,"text":"可以具有完整的權利行使而我們在民法修改後呢他們也必須要負責成年人的責任那因此在這樣的說明當中認為不管是從世界各國的比較還是就我們法律當中相關的規定似乎18歲已成年那麼是不是成年就應該付給公民權尤其是"},{"start":6973.363,"end":6995.48,"text":"選舉權我想這是一個主流的論述那當然我們看到憲法當中有從法理上 英藍上我們怎麼去解釋憲法明文的規定國民年滿20歲依法有選舉權那這樣的規定到底是不是限制了我們在思考這個法律上英藍上怎麼去改變的問題過去在策略上我們也選擇了透過修憲"},{"start":6997.882,"end":7014.244,"text":"所以現在雖然有成案而且是三黨當時的朝野各政黨一致同意成案成案後送交公民投票但是沒有通過那沒有通過是代表什麼呢是代表國民意志整個國家的國民意志反對這個事情"},{"start":7015.703,"end":7038.38,"text":"是這樣嗎?如果修憲沒有過的案子是不是代表的就在國民意志上被否決或推翻呢?好像也沒辦法這樣說只是說未達到修憲的門檻以至於不能完成修憲但不意味著是透過這樣的修憲過程當中否決了18歲公民權它的一個實然上可以爭取的空間所以我是覺得呢首先先認定"},{"start":7039.181,"end":7056.682,"text":"修憲不成不代表國民反對這個意見這一點恐怕是要先確定的但是在這個同時我們也發現了一些有趣的地方譬如說青年基本法立法院在去年青年基本法當中呢就把條文明明白白的寫進去18歲政府要保障青年的參政權"},{"start":7058.024,"end":7082.417,"text":"糟糕了 青年基本法它不是一個強制性的法律它有宣示性的效果 這樣叫基本法嘛但是這個基本法可以去含涉要求選罷法做相對應的修改嗎恐怕中選委也好 內政委也好 他們也沒有辦法從政得出的結論而且我看今天的多數意見還是表達說並沒有對於18歲可不可以有公民"},{"start":7083.197,"end":7094.428,"text":"可以有選舉權有做出可否的意見表示但是都提到憲法現行的規定似乎限制了我們行政機關在對賦予18歲公民選舉權做一個積極的表態所以呢我們就不禁要問了如果從法理上來講那麼"},{"start":7103.058,"end":7119.737,"text":"國會的意識已經明白的表示青年基本法政府應該保障18歲青年的參政權那憲法又還沒有辦法修憲通過那到底其他的法律可不可以改我們可以從一些各些國家的經驗來思考比如說"},{"start":7120.878,"end":7125.642,"text":"在民法那時候從20歲還沒有下車到18歲之前也發生過類似的問題譬如說我那時候就曾經為了這個探討成年的定義我說如果按照我們的攤商管理辦法你要滿20歲成年才可以去跟地方政府申請在市場擺攤但是如果你沒有申請在擺攤警察會不會來取締"},{"start":7142.415,"end":7148.324,"text":"但是你知道嗎 來取締的警察 他要執行公權力18歲考入 如果當年警校是兩年的時候他有可能20歲不到 他就來當警察他就來取締你這個沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個年輕人"},{"start":7157.478,"end":7178.245,"text":"一個未滿20歲的警察來取締一個未滿20歲沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個事情不是很荒謬嗎所以我們要一般上去思考譬如說飲酒的年齡譬如說考駕照的年齡那這些都在很多民主國家在思考的時候似乎都會先抓一條線就是成年這個是一個基準線"},{"start":7179.185,"end":7203.02,"text":"什麼年齡我們可以往上調譬如說在有些國家成年人不能抽菸你要超過成年的年齡一定年齡後他認為延緩你受到菸毒強害的時間所以不見得成年就代表什麼事都可以做而這個基準線這個基準線那裡之後我們來討論哪些行為必須超過這個基準線才能賦予哪些低於這個基準線才可以賦予所以有些國家沒有成年人16歲就可以考駕照"},{"start":7204.261,"end":7225.461,"text":"所以因此我們在思考成年這個定義的時候它會不會是一個基準線如果我們國家對於成年的基準線已經拉到18歲那我們可以好好來的探討18歲除了成年同時有哪些事情他還不能做要延後有哪些事情他可以提早做還有哪些事情他同時可以做但是如果我們立法院有這樣的討論之後那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7226.604,"end":7230.609,"text":"如果會不會發生一樣新年基本法我們也通過了我們陸續修了選罷法結果我們就規定滿18歲可以有依法就可以選舉權那這問題掉到誰那裡憲法法庭嘛"},{"start":7239.232,"end":7264.022,"text":"所以到底我們的修法有沒有辦法去追溯原憲法立憲者的原意這有很多討論剛剛姚老師也提到了原來的這個被選舉權23歲依憲法附法律令委規定之外年滿23歲有被選舉權因為憲法本身就有提到總統要實施才能被選舉所以他有這樣的一個規定所以當這樣的一個情況我們來自己局限的時候是不是我們可以大人的說那好"},{"start":7264.562,"end":7290.718,"text":"那現在我們也沒辦法去推究立憲者的原意我們憲法修憲也沒辦法得到全民達到門檻的共識那如果我們透過立法的手段像立青年基本法這樣立了之後那麼如果有人對於說這個有抵觸憲法之餘請大法官憲法法庭來審理那最後因為憲法法庭的決定就視同有修憲的效力那這是不是一條另外一條路呢公聽會不見得有答案但是公聽會可以提出問題請提出這個問題的方向我們共同來思考 謝謝"},{"start":7300.387,"end":7313.107,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請何潔恩發起人發言好 辛苦的廖召偉然後在場的嘉賓委員"},{"start":7314.281,"end":7336.532,"text":"列席的長官、團體夥伴、律師先進還有老師們好我是青年思潮的發起人傑恩現在也是政大反應所的學生青年思潮是從去年底開始由許多卸任的大學學生會長成立的青年組織我們關心18到27歲的青年在我國內政性議題上的權益也就包含今天所討論的18歲公民權或是最近也麻煩了內政部不少的兵役體位的修正"},{"start":7336.952,"end":7351.545,"text":"居住正義 結社權 人本交通等等所以要再次的感謝昭偉身為青壯世代的立委在內政委員會持續的關心年輕人在意的題目對18歲公益權入選辦法已經安排了巡達公聽會要來晚輩立法的程序"},{"start":7352.225,"end":7370.227,"text":"那剛剛與會的老師律師還有教育委員已經對18歲公民權直接修法不修憲的合憲性提供很豐富的支持論述我想在這樣的基礎上在根據學界的意見還有中整憲法解釋的方法來聚焦兩件事第一件事憲法法庭"},{"start":7371.588,"end":7398.548,"text":"在沒有解釋之前我們其實是可以根據憲法解釋方法由立法者來做出一些解釋的那麼憲法130條解釋上有沒有空間可以修法即可在2011年我母校的廉仁豪老師初步提出時確實可能是少數學者的主張但是到了2026年經歷了15年期間經歷了2022年的修憲公投讓公法學界都注意到這個議題以及2024年公法學會所召開的18歲公民權的專題研討會"},{"start":7400.769,"end":7416.724,"text":"不分政治傾向不分老中青的公法學者都普遍表達支持目前已經累積了十幾位的公法學者表態形成公法學界的主流穩定見解除了我自己曾在幾位老師的課堂上聽過這題目甚至是2023年台大公法組的考題"},{"start":7417.524,"end":7443.197,"text":"所以對於年輕的法律人而言公法學界主流晚進認為有修法空間其實是再自然不過的認知而非少數學者或團體的冒進建議而且剛剛何衛慈律師也已經說明去年也有持此立場的法院實務見解出現對法律人而言學說還有實務的見解是同樣重要的目前學說多數還有實務已經趨於一致18歲公民權有修法空間的結論其實相當明確"},{"start":7444.758,"end":7461.788,"text":"第二今天的提綱問憲法130條應該要採取保障說來授權立法者修法即可還是要採取限制說而沒有立法者的行程空間必須要修憲需要指出的是從憲法文藝上來看或是從史料來看我們都無法得知制憲者究竟是"},{"start":7462.328,"end":7482.252,"text":"採取哪一說因此哪一說絕對正確或絕對錯誤但是今天專家學者的討論其實也沒有聚焦在這裡分歧點仍然在於現在我們要再解釋憲法的時候是否可以根據歷史解釋的方法基於制憲者的原意而得出憲法限制20歲不可以投票的結論那我想答案是否定的"},{"start":7482.732,"end":7508.37,"text":"首先需要指出一切的前提仍然是憲法130條的寫法在文藝解釋上確實留下了空間如果制限者要寫死的話他應該要寫20歲始開始的始20歲始有選舉權但是制限者只寫了20歲有選舉權這不等於20歲以下沒有選舉權這是一個很基本的邏輯問題在法學上這個是理念組老師不斷提醒的不能夠理所當然的反面解釋的問題"},{"start":7509.37,"end":7536.059,"text":"基於這樣的文藝空間就算要採取歷史解釋我們也需要看制憲者的真實意思如果回顧史料我們就會發現制憲過程中制憲者幾乎沒有在討論投票年齡他們比較聚焦在被選舉的年齡其實就是因為對制憲者而言投票年齡很單純就是要綁定民法的成年年齡林莫南老師就指出憲法130條是跟他一樣流日的張志本先生所寫制憲當時日本的學說就認為投票年齡應該要綁定民法的成年年齡"},{"start":7536.793,"end":7560.723,"text":"張之本先生恐怕就是受到這個的影響而寫出了20歲這樣的規定這樣的推測當然要小心的求證已經被政協的秘書長雷正先生的第一手史料給證實這也是剛剛陳浩翔老師聚焦的政協會議在民國35年1月召開是同一年的11月立法院正式的提出中華民國憲法草案之前最後一關的實質討論所以這場會議支線者如何討論是非常重要的"},{"start":7564.364,"end":7586.68,"text":"那最能夠還原制憲者的意思也是這場會議那剛剛曹小老師拿出了跟我一樣的書在雷震先生所寫的中華民國制憲史政治協商會議憲法草案中關於選舉的章節已經有很明確的說明他說在政協草案中選舉權的規定就是基於民法的規定制憲者認為成年人已經有行為能力的就自然應該擁有選舉權任何人都不能夠剝奪"},{"start":7590.615,"end":7611.084,"text":"至於如果有一天民法成年年齡像今天一樣被降低了那麼選舉年齡到底應該要修法還是要修憲在文藝上憲法130條其實是寫有依法選舉權所以他其實可能是傾向在憲法的規定以外如果要對選舉的資格做一些補充其實是要透過法律的那從史料上來看"},{"start":7611.724,"end":7637.977,"text":"我們看不出來制限者恐怕就是沒有任何的預料也因此沒有任何的表態這時候我們也就需要考量所謂活的憲法憲法本來就具有原則性高的穩定性還有開放性因此如果在憲法許可的範圍之內在制限者沒有設想的部分本來就可以透過立法和解釋讓憲法的內涵與時俱進而非僵化的解釋憲法或非修憲明確化不可例如婚姻一男一女基於制限者原意"},{"start":7638.437,"end":7645.142,"text":"就沒有辦法動了那同性婚姻就沒有辦法承認了憲法11條保障的言論自由也沒有辦法擴及到電視和網絡但我想憲法內還現在都已經與時俱進了"},{"start":7649.017,"end":7669.279,"text":"從史料來看有一件事情非常確定就是制限者的原意是有行為能力就有投票權所以如果要採取歷史解釋綁定民法的成年年齡會比起20歲更接近制限者的原意同時因為憲法文藝制限者原意上都沒有鎖死20歲留下了解釋空間這時候就需要綜合其他的憲法解釋方法來綜合判斷"},{"start":7670.1,"end":7697.095,"text":"在這裡就必須指出無論是我國或是其他國家的憲法法院歷來憲法解釋上都不獨尊歷史解釋反而歷史解釋往往只是參考事實上釋字392號也已經明確指出解釋憲法時制憲的史料或背景應該要謹慎使用避免流於獨斷字義所以仍然需要回歸文藝的範圍看看憲法的目的上是要保障成年人民的參政權是否可以被加以實現整體法律體系上人民何時被評價為成熟可以獨立行為的"},{"start":7697.916,"end":7701.059,"text":"從這些角度來看都會得出以法律下修選舉年齡到18歲不違背憲法的結論"},{"start":7704.301,"end":7733.087,"text":"所以如果依法市格的申請人認為違憲向憲法法庭提出審查從各種法律解釋方法來看修法實現18歲公民權應能經受得起合憲性的審查不必過度擔心在發言的最後我也希望對公聽會做一些收攏武漢開場發言的何衛慈律師林彥廷學長鄭明陽學長在去年11月有一篇刊登在報導者的投書18歲公民權修憲未成功透過修法也可以嗎我們當時寫保障說限制說在學界政界各有支持沒有定論"},{"start":7733.687,"end":7756.498,"text":"但在今天的公聽會中我們其實可以知道多數的專家學者或是不在場專家學者其實都很認同憲法保有修法到18歲的彈性反而是修法必然違憲的立論並不穩固這半年間不分政黨的立委也都已經表達支持18歲公民權入選罷法比起去年清雞法三讀時這半年已經又再往前了一步共識更大討論的也已經非常清楚"},{"start":7757.178,"end":7774.17,"text":"條件已經趨於成熟是時候可以往下推進透過修法來實現18歲公民權所以我也呼應其他代表具體建議投票年齡降低的修正案性質單純目前也有跨黨派的提案甚至已經完成各樣的立法的程序希望立法院能夠就此盡速的審查二三讀通過"},{"start":7774.91,"end":7792.527,"text":"也期望行政院能夠共同提案支持優先把憲法17條賦予人民的選舉和罷免權還給18到20歲的青年至於被選舉的年齡屬於憲法18條廣義參政權的內涵立院、政院可以在凝聚共識正式提案之後我們再另外討論處理謝謝大家,我是青年思潮的杰恩"},{"start":7800.831,"end":7804.262,"text":"我們下一位邀請陳庭楚工農發起人發言"},{"start":7822.705,"end":7836.755,"text":"主席在場各位的夥伴大家好我是台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳庭楚首先我要在這邊先講結論我們是支持以修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":7839.096,"end":7858.074,"text":"其實2022年我和在場的很多這個青年夥伴一樣我們都站在街頭目標就是為了要推動18歲公民權的修憲18歲公民權投同意這句話在當時是一件遙不可及的事情但是到了今天呢我們終於有辦法進入實質的修法討論"},{"start":7859.395,"end":7879.802,"text":"放眼全世界在230多個國家當中很少國家是用20歲以上才能投票的這個制度在實行的其中一個就是我們台灣我想今天在座很多的在家學者都已經針對法律見解都已經有各自不同的表述那我今天就以一個個人實際生活在這個制度底下的青年來談這個問題"},{"start":7882.903,"end":7907.26,"text":"我是一個工程人也是一個青年我是從事建築工作我來自一個單親家庭我由父親跟祖父母扶養長大其實我成長過程很單純我跟多數人一樣我只在乎吃飽穿亂功課有沒有寫完在我高中的時候我同學很多都是理工人所以我們日常都被技術還有功課追著跑很少對公共事務有議題有關注的"},{"start":7909.574,"end":7932.69,"text":"但是當我開始要去關注政治議題或者是討論公共議題的時候我很難獲得我收招新年同學的支持或者共鳴甚至我會被當成異類這讓我當時也開始思考我們現在資訊如此的發達而且台灣是一個民主化成熟的國家到底為什麼我收招的同學都對政治冷感"},{"start":7933.786,"end":7955.736,"text":"於是我大學進入了公共事務的參與我擔任學生會會長但是當我進入公共事務的時候我發現我們學校對於學生自治的投票率都只有10%而已這代表說當我們的權利義務不相符我們就沒有辦法去影響到年輕人的動機沒有辦法影響到周遭人他們的動機了"},{"start":7957.236,"end":7972.335,"text":"那開頭所講的2022年我19歲的時候正值地方選舉跟18歲公民權的修憲公投我原本以為我自己可以參加但是直到我沒有收到投票通知帶的那一刻起我才知道說原來我是沒有辦法投票的"},{"start":7972.967,"end":7986.787,"text":"那當時我就覺得說難道18、19歲這個年齡層能不能要投票都要大連來幫我們決定嗎難道說18、19歲這個年齡層就是次等公民嗎"},{"start":7988.457,"end":8006.753,"text":"創新其實是一件很重要的事情它關乎著一個國家的競爭力也能讓國家更有未來跟希望的感覺國家不斷的創新在於有沒有新年的政策跟新年的想法挹注到公共議題當中如果投票權跟參政權都被多數的中老年人把持年輕人不投票那我們國家只會越來越保守"},{"start":8008.149,"end":8019.306,"text":"為什麼到選舉的時候總是會出現政策上面的世代落差為什麼政黨的候選人到最後都會變成政策買票要去鞏固他的基本盤而不是去積極的論述一些政策"},{"start":8020.492,"end":8044.021,"text":"我們很常看到就是說從楊敬老金到選舉最後他就是一個討論的重點為什麼因為他有錢他可以去影響到有權投票的人為什麼老王今天他要上漲到超過一萬元因為他有辦法去影響到選民有辦法影響到有投票權的選民啊所以每次的選舉就一直加碼加碼再加碼加到好像綜藝大集合一樣不知道到底在選舉還是綜藝節目"},{"start":8046.042,"end":8073.866,"text":"所以18歲這個年齡層的青年比較有可能碰到的選舉考招制度和手機管理制度或者是最近吵得很兇的學習歷程檔案其實都到選舉最後不會被討論他們不是因為這個議題不重要是因為這個議題它影響到了年齡層他是沒有投票權的所以政治人物往往到最後就是忽視他們了那把這些社會資源都重視在比較富有的長者而去剝削這些年輕人"},{"start":8074.786,"end":8096.371,"text":"這對我們台灣社會是一件好事嗎從各項的民意調查數據統計當中都能夠得知65歲以上的年長者其實他們都已經有固定的政黨基本上就在光譜的兩極或者他們也很容易被政策買票所影響今天很多人在質疑說18歲能不能投票他有沒有成熟思考能力"},{"start":8097.091,"end":8111.527,"text":"那我們是不是也要去質疑說65歲甚至80歲以上的長者他們的思想固化固定的政黨傾向他們其實也不具備足夠的思考能力可以去投票那我們台灣的有資格投票的人是不是要降低到剩下二分之以下"},{"start":8113.052,"end":8129.46,"text":"法律社會已經定義說18歲他是一個完全行為能力人了已經要盡他們該盡的義務了但是他卻不能為自己所支持的政策去選擇這是一個權利義務的不對等再說一次難道18、19歲這個年齡層的人他就是四等公民嗎"},{"start":8131.089,"end":8153.03,"text":"今天的公聽會剛剛大家應該或許或多或少有一些共識我們可以透過修法來去落實18歲公民權剛剛有學者說要再回到修憲那青年基本法已經通過說18歲就是要有投票權那這個要不要也去修憲要不要也去釋憲內政部所提出來的這個公聽會報告也說要去釋憲"},{"start":8154.051,"end":8168.138,"text":"那我就覺得很奇怪那我們今天討論這個修法公聽會到底是要到底是要以選罷法來落實這個18歲公民權還是還是其實我們只是走個形式要去解釋憲法還是要回到修憲委員會那我們這樣子討論其實根本沒有意義"},{"start":8169.398,"end":8193.836,"text":"對我們這個世代來講真正重要的其實不是程序的結果而是18歲的青年朋友到底能不能決定這個社會要走向什麼樣的未來如果什麼法案遇到爭議連18歲公民權眾藍綠白都支持的法案都有爭議都要憲法法庭的話那我們的行政跟立法院其實也可以廢除我們就以後都用憲法法庭來制定法律就好啦所以"},{"start":8194.827,"end":8220.032,"text":"一個已經被要求承擔責任的世代他不應該被排除在政策或是政治的選擇之外如果我們都認同說18歲他其實是具備獨立思考的能力如果我們也都可以理解我們不是什麼事情都一定要由大人來幫我們決定那今天的公聽會其實很明顯我們應該都是要支持這個修法就是要用修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":8222.281,"end":8238.515,"text":"不要再讓18歲的青年朋友被剝削做次等公民請大家一起來支持這一次的18歲公民權修法我是台灣青年台灣新文化青年協會的共同發起人陳鼎楚我支持18歲公民權修法 謝謝好 我們下一位要請詹雅琳委員發言我們委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":8254.026,"end":8271.678,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 那我先剛剛聽到那個前面陳庭楚發起人的一個對於公聽會的一個疑問就是我們今天為什麼辦公聽會那我先說明一下我的立場所以我是在我基本上在青年基本法第20條裡面我也自己就寫得非常清楚那我也提出了相關的修法版本"},{"start":8272.538,"end":8296.46,"text":"那為什麼我還是會認為之前我在質詢的時候還是希望主席可以來召開這個公聽會喔最主要就是說因為其實這個民間的學者最近年來我們已經看到很多的學者提出來認為說其實不需要透過修憲喔包含林彥祖老師、林佳和老師、胡柏諺老師、嚴絕恩老師、林明熙等等的學者都認為其實是可以透過選罷法但是也還是有一些憲法學者提出了不同的看法"},{"start":8296.92,"end":8316.068,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天需要透過公聽會來凝聚大家更多的共識因為我想畢竟這個想法上面大家也許可以透過討論可以有更多的啟發也許我們可以凝聚更多的共識之後我們就可以推動這個相關的選罷法的部分"},{"start":8317.148,"end":8345.674,"text":"那我想我的立場其實非常簡單為什麼我會在選報方面提出這件事情基本上我也是支持18歲就應該要有投票權想有最完整的公民權為什麼呢因為其實18歲的學生年輕人來說他們已經承擔了太多的責任了他們已經要負刑事責任要納稅甚至男性已經要服兵役了等於國家已經認為他可以承擔責任了可是在決定投票的時候卻剝奪他的權利"},{"start":8347.174,"end":8358.463,"text":"卻不能夠決定國家的方向我認為這是完全非常荒謬的一件事情那特別是說我們來看許多國家的國際的一個民主國家包含美國、英國、日本"},{"start":8359.772,"end":8379.458,"text":"韓國德國他們的投票年紀都已經是18歲了可是台灣卻還是20歲我認為我們這個我們一直講我們是這個年輕的民主國家但是我們的這個體制上面似乎還是相對落後所以我覺得這是一個關鍵的問題我們到底要不要跟上世界"},{"start":8380.278,"end":8393.005,"text":"那更重要的是我也非常認同前面發起人講的就是說這是個世代正義的問題啊因為今天不管是教育制度也好房價問題也好勞動政策等等等等其實受影響最深的就是這些年輕人"},{"start":8394.71,"end":8415.755,"text":"接下來國家的人口老化要承擔所有的經濟發展勞動力的還有未來的長照等等的社會福利的稅收都是這些年輕人可是這些年輕人沒有投票權我認為受影響的人卻沒有辦法參與決策這是非常不公平的一件事情"},{"start":8417.284,"end":8438.771,"text":"特別是說2022年的修憲案我們也非常清楚的從結果看到18歲公民權的同意票是多於不同意票的所以其實並不是人民反對啦而是相對的一個修憲門檻可能真的是太高了所以我們是不是能夠在現行的法治狀況之下前進一步呢"},{"start":8440.792,"end":8450.48,"text":"我也認為就是說憲法的確是有一些限制但是憲法是不是也可以被解釋例如第130條也可以被理解成至少在20月稅前要給予投票權"},{"start":8457.626,"end":8485.669,"text":"所以他也可以提早給啊對不對那他也是其實就是在擴張他的基本權利嘛所以我認為憲法的解釋不應該只有停留在當年的歷史背景而應該要透過歷史體系還有目的來做一個整體的判斷所以我想今天的這個討論我這邊應該是做一個發言了嘛我想大家應該都有今天都有充分的表達那我的立場還是最重要的一件事情就是18歲公民權不是給我們的年輕人特權"},{"start":8486.73,"end":8493.992,"text":"而是當國家要求他負起責任的時候也應該要給他的權相對的權利這才是一個全責相當的制度 謝謝好 登記發言的專家學者委員肉依發言完畢請問我們的內政部中學會法務部有機關回應說明內政部請問我們吳政次"},{"start":8521.266,"end":8538.964,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位學者那這邊有兩點那第一個還是非常感謝今天所有出席的委員還有我們的各位學者專家的發言那有關18歲公民權的相關建議如果立院這邊有具修憲及修法共識我們內政部會員者來尊重"},{"start":8539.685,"end":8558.179,"text":"那第二點那就是有關被選舉權的年齡那是不是要調降及如何調降的問題那剛剛也聽到各位學者的一些相關的意見那這個部分還是要在審酌我們各民選公使人員的部分因為相關的職位還有層級職責那我們建議也可以參酌各方的意見來再跟續辦理以上請問中選委有要回應嗎沒有好其他機關"},{"start":8569.363,"end":8575,"text":"沒有 那請問各位與會的專家學者有要二輪發言的有補充發言嗎"},{"start":8576.593,"end":8599.035,"text":"如果沒有的話那就感謝各位專家學者提供保衛意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家各位的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}