{"error":false,"id":["17379"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":17379,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17379","日期":"2026-04-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2026-04-23T08:35:38+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-23T11:03:00+08:00","影片長度":"02:27:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce063c99885a10fc29fa8a86ff2d6ccbdb1d480c4e0b4ea524bd16399827d671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"08:35:38 - 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫並備質詢本次會議有委員陳昭芝等10人提出質詢"},{"start":1559.694,"end":1586.485,"text":"委員蔡啟昌提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關禁書送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有錯誤或遺漏 議事錄我們就確定啦接著介紹到場的委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員 我們陳昭之委員"},{"start":1588.738,"end":1604.868,"text":"跟林倩琦委員接著我們來介紹應邀列席的官員法務部部長鄭明謙正部長還有我們法律事務室代理師長謝志明代理師長"},{"start":1610.243,"end":1616.928,"text":"檢察司副司長有來了 檢美會副司長 跟您介紹一下這沒有辦法 您都先刮 先刮到白天不知道 您已經先刮 頭先還要黏一下司法院少年級家事廳廳長 鐘鐘林這個廳長"},{"start":1627.204,"end":1654.746,"text":"其他沒介紹到的列席代表就參閱名單我就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次的議程討論事項共計排定兩案分別為病案審查民法親屬篇部分條文修正草案一共19案病案審查民法親屬篇施刑法增訂第七條之一條文草案一共8案"},{"start":1655.166,"end":1672.671,"text":"那本次會議我們今天就只進行詢答那因為第二案中那個8那個尚未收到各黨團簽署的不附議同意書那我們就按照開會通知單所載就不予審查我們現在是不是來進行委員的提案說明每一位委員發言3分鐘"},{"start":1684.875,"end":1687.84,"text":"我們先請第一位 林倩琦委員你如果要過時間可以縮低一分錢就更好"},{"start":1700.315,"end":1724.505,"text":"主席還有輔會同仁大家好那麼針對今天這個民法親屬篇的這個部分條文修正草案那本席在這邊先針對我的提案本席的提案有關於民法離婚與贍養費制度的這個整體修正那主要的目的是在回應當前社會的家庭形態轉變那麼並建立符合現代婚姻關係跟經濟公平的一個制度架構"},{"start":1725.385,"end":1740.694,"text":"那麼首先在離婚制度的這個部分呢現在現行的規範是以責任歸屬為核心那麼容易會讓這個訴訟的過程由於指責過失跟介入隱私沒有辦法回歸婚姻是不是已經實質破裂的這個"},{"start":1741.374,"end":1764.542,"text":"判斷所以本案的修正是刪除部分已經不符實務的劣舉事由那麼同時明定夫妻不同居達三年且處於持續狀態者得提起離婚是制度來回歸婚姻破綻主義之精神並兼顧個案的這個平衡那由法院來判斷是否有顯示公平"},{"start":1765.322,"end":1786.006,"text":"那麼其次呢在這個善養費制度喔那麼現行的規範是以無過失作為請求的要件已經不太符合現在的這個婚姻平等的理念那本案呢修正刪除無過失的限制改以離婚後限於生活困難或因婚姻分工制就業能力減損機會減少者為請求的基礎"},{"start":1789.927,"end":1804.114,"text":"那麼使贍養費來回歸填補經濟落差跟補償家庭投入的本質那麼同時呢本案增第1057條之一至五從請求方式 著定標準減免適由"},{"start":1806.235,"end":1830.641,"text":"全力消灭到行使期间建构完整制度体系使赡养费的制度具备明确规范跟可预期性那么本案的核心在于让制度回到公平与现实让婚姻的结束不再是对一方的不当负担而是经济与责任的合理重整那么以上呢敬请各位委员支持本案"},{"start":1832.898,"end":1838.321,"text":"接下來本席針對《民法親屬篇》的施行法增訂第七之一條本案主要是配合《民法》第1052條裁判離婚制度的修正增訂《民法》親屬篇的施行法"},{"start":1858.914,"end":1886.291,"text":"第七條之一那麼目的是在釐清新舊法銜接的這個問題那麼確保制度適用的一致性跟法律的明確性那麼民法修改這個修法來放寬裁判離婚的事由使法院得以回歸婚姻是否以實質破裂之判斷那麼符合現在家庭關係跟婚姻自由之發展趨勢然而如果對目前私情已經發生的事實加以規範"},{"start":1887.392,"end":1913.566,"text":"可能會產生適用疑義影響當事人的權益那麼具體來說過去已經發生的婚姻破裂事實如果在新法施行前未符合舊法離婚的要件卻在新法下已經構成離婚的事由若人不得適用新法提起離婚之訴將會導致制度改革就沒有辦法完整的發揮這個效果"},{"start":1914.767,"end":1929.636,"text":"那也有違修法的意旨所以本案明定在修法施行前所發生之事時依修正後第1052條之規定足以構成離婚原因者當事人即可提起離婚之訴"},{"start":1930.99,"end":1955.231,"text":"藉此來確保法律適用標準一致並避免新舊制度交錯所產生的不公平結果本案為離婚制度改革之重要配套措施有助於落實婚姻破綻主義之精神並保障人民婚姻自主與司法救濟的權利以上敬請各位委員支持本案謝謝也謝謝主席"},{"start":1956.31,"end":1961.976,"text":"好 謝謝林建琦 林委員那接下來我們來進行機關代表的報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們現在請法務部政務部長"},{"start":1973.742,"end":2001.298,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴賓會就民法傾訴篇部分條文及施行法增訂7條1修正草案代表本部列席說明並被質詢那這一次的一個修法是因應憲法法庭112年宣判制第4號判決憲法法庭指出現行民法部分情況一律不准唯一有責配有請求離分可能導致個案顯然過客屬於部分違憲"},{"start":2002.319,"end":2013.434,"text":"因此本部依前概判決意旨檢討裁判離婚及離婚後財產的效力規範據直接查案已完備我國離婚法制"},{"start":2014.195,"end":2036.082,"text":"那裁判離婚的原因是依破綻主義精神 足以放寬裁判離婚的要件分區一定其間客觀事實為離婚室友那剩餘財產的分配是強化福氣財產揭露的遺物明定請求他們可以提出財產清澈等相關文件那善養會制度改革刪除過失財能請求的一個限制納入就業能力節省作為補償性"},{"start":2037.282,"end":2058.804,"text":"善良會的基礎那子女撫養會調整受撫養權力的一個順序將尊親屬、卑親屬列為同一順序那目前現在司法院對部分條文能有不同意見那本部的意見如下那關於強化夫妻財產揭露的部分本部能建立在與實體法徵定請求提供"},{"start":2059.644,"end":2078.934,"text":"產產清澈等相關文件的依據那管理分析期間的計算行政院版是五年內累計三年教司法院版累計三年更符合破產主義的精神善養會的減免部分司法院建立是以取得剩餘產產分配即可減免善養會為剩餘產產是過去貢獻的分配善養會是未來生活的補償"},{"start":2079.814,"end":2103.584,"text":"性質不同無重複評價的問題那本部建立調整直系血清間的撫養順序以保障未成年子女的權利那本部對各委員所提出的離分法制的修正方向竟表贊同對各該修正條文的意見請參謀書面報告第七頁以下主條分析那本次修法是落實分定自由使離分法規範更客觀"},{"start":2105.945,"end":2124.561,"text":"更為客觀並兼顧他方配偶權利的保障進行大院支持以及建構更符合現代人權價值的親屬法治以上報告敬請書錫及各位委員指教好 謝謝法務部正部長接下來我們請司法院中廳長"},{"start":2132.545,"end":2152.978,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天奉命到貴委員會來就有關於民法1052條第二項相關的修法請就各委員提案做如下之報告第一點關於委員這個"},{"start":2155.479,"end":2182.731,"text":"鄭天才委員、沈發慧委員、歡迎委員、林玉琴委員、蔡宇宜委員、林宜謹委員、陳淑月委員、賴慧媛委員、吳立華委員、還有歡迎委員、羅廷委員等、邱振軍委員等提案一致提案對民法第1022條第二項來增訂那本院有以下幾點意見報告第一在"},{"start":2184.192,"end":2200.389,"text":"這個1022的第一項本身它的立法理由就已經揭示是在落實剩餘財產分配請求權的一個規範那麼本次這個提案徵修第二項立法理由是說要落實剩餘財產分配請求權同時強化戶區財產揭露"},{"start":2204.773,"end":2225.831,"text":"那第一點我們認為似乎有重複規定的這個疑慮第二是有關夫妻財產揭露的部分在我國的民法已經規定夫妻就婚後財產互互有報告義務那這部分似乎也可以再做那第二個就有關增訂的這一項剩餘財產"},{"start":2228.533,"end":2249.739,"text":"因對方應提出的這個文件並沒有名列哪些相訂明確的文件第三呢未有這些具體內容那如果沒有提出也沒有相關的效法律效果那現在現行家事事件法第三條第五項第四款跟1498條已經定有"},{"start":2253.34,"end":2281.283,"text":"報告戶籍財產狀況的非送事件那這一部分已經有相關的規範可使用所以本院敬請在座那關於歡迎委員以及這個相關提案徵休民法1030條之一第二項修正第五六項等這個修正還有修正民法1011條第二項那有關這個配偶請求職業退休金的分配"},{"start":2282.203,"end":2292.517,"text":"這個已經行政院召開各級部會討論後在各個法律中分別明定所以我們見請在座那有關那個委員提案1030-1第6項來增訂那這一部分這個"},{"start":2297.463,"end":2316.824,"text":"因為民法1013條刪除後適用法定夫妻財產制已無特有財產所以在約定共同財產制下保留特有財產制所以依民法1017適用法定財產夫妻就其婚前財產婚後財產各自有管理使用收益所以建請在座"},{"start":2317.324,"end":2344.594,"text":"那再來就是1052條第二項有關行政院跟各位委員提案的分居的這個要件的認定五年內累積分居三年以達用這個累積分居期間以達三年來計算裁判離分的要件那本院審酌結果提出下列幾點供參酌那有關這個分居有的一個計算"},{"start":2346.255,"end":2364.874,"text":"有關這個在我們大法官釋制這個112號宪判4號是明定相當期間未有共同生活之分居事實另外呢在這個世界各國都以繼續未能共同生活已達一定法定期間那再來就是有關這個"},{"start":2366.195,"end":2387.206,"text":"分居它的一個客觀事實的認定必須要用舉證那麼以日數或哪些時間下計算在實際的訴訟上有相當的困難所以我們建議是採這個所謂的連續達三年以上那最後就是1057條第一項這個明定說這個"},{"start":2391.348,"end":2410.254,"text":"有關夫妻請求對方給互善良費的這個請求那麼這個部分本院認為說有關民法我們家事事件法已經在非送事件訂有夫妻一方請求對方給互善良費的在100條訂有各種給互方法來讓法官審酌保護一方的弱勢後公平"},{"start":2418.177,"end":2429.567,"text":"那麼如果增訂這一條它只限定於這個選擇條件跟這個需要的給付方式是比較有限所以我們請求在座那有關最後這是1057條第二項的增訂補償性的這個善良費"},{"start":2434.691,"end":2439.775,"text":"那就是就離婚史就業能力的減損跟就業機會的這個減少這個審酌要件的請求善良費本人認為第一有重複審酌的意義就是在夫妻生育財產的1030-1也有同樣的規定那在"},{"start":2454.187,"end":2462.213,"text":"再來就是我們有攸關這個增訂1057-1-2第七款善良費這些事實都重複那麼同時就夫妻財產狀況本來就互互有報告義務那麼在這個情況下我們建議說如果能鑿定就是給另外一方對已經給予善良費或相當補償的話可以請求酌以減免那這個最後一個就是有關"},{"start":2484.518,"end":2490.803,"text":"提案修正民法1115 116 117 116-1 118 18-1 119這部分是關於有關這個撫養義務人權利人的一些相關的規定那在這個部分本院發現有幾項兩項的質疑報告供各位參考那也就是說現行這個修訂"},{"start":2508.337,"end":2519.612,"text":"把這個所謂的沒有區分子女是成年未成年的順位第二個也把直系中心組並列為撫養權利人的第一順位那麼這個在這個有關"},{"start":2523.957,"end":2539.443,"text":"父母不能維持自己生活的時候父母也只能請求減輕不能免除這部分進行再走最後就是現在的撫養方法現在已經不用親屬會議決定都交由法官裁定所以"},{"start":2540.563,"end":2558.098,"text":"本版衛救一一二零並為修正有關善良會消除婦女一切不平等歧視公約等在這個受撫養義務的順位上有關民法一一一七條第一項未見列入以上本院見請在座謝謝"},{"start":2561.192,"end":2570.098,"text":"好 謝謝那其餘列席機關有無口頭補充若沒有機關代表就報告完畢相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間"},{"start":2583.083,"end":2604.837,"text":"八分鐘就八分鐘 必要時得延長兩分鐘 最高的自動消音非本會委員巡打時間五分鐘 並不再延長那我們上午十點三十分截止發言登記現在請第一位登記發言的委員 這個最專業的 來 程昭之委員謝謝主席 有請鄭部長"},{"start":2612.568,"end":2613.909,"text":"請鄭部長部長早 今天委員會我們要討論有關民法親屬片的贍養費的請求權的修正那我想先請教部長您對贍養費的定性就是在現代民法中是被定義為撫養義務的延伸還是一個婚姻的補償"},{"start":2636.471,"end":2641.014,"text":"柯佩琪你簡單說明跟委員報告其實善養費事實上是對未來生活的補償它是一個補償的性質那過去在司法實務上因為長期善養費的請求要件實在太嚴格了所以把生活陷於困難當作唯一的門檻"},{"start":2656.482,"end":2660.583,"text":"那這本質是一種過去是個救濟的思維那不是權力的補償同時也可能對於為了家庭犧牲而沒有辦法減少就業能力或機會的這一方讓法院再如何去做一個合理公平的客觀評價會遇到一些困難"},{"start":2677.529,"end":2691.021,"text":"那本次修法 社養費的請求要件不單限於這個生活限於困難這點本席給予非常高的肯定跟支持但是對於家庭的心力跟貢獻這個部分我想要來繼續延續這個問題請問法務部認為修法的方向"},{"start":2695.225,"end":2712.619,"text":"是不是已經做到這個去體察或是呈現該方的家務勞動價值跟職癌機會成本而且避免在婚姻當中被剝削的那個一方的這個弱勢配偶他就是變得變相的一個剝削就請問你認為現在修法有沒有達到這幾個精神"},{"start":2716.614,"end":2740.18,"text":"我想這部分我們修法就是要鼓勵到的確是這是未來嘛 未來的生活的話是不是有困難那當然有離婚時的話有減損的那個工作能力跟就業的一些的一個機會那當然是因為離婚後我們也會保障部長很抱歉 因為很多時候聽你報告你就說離婚時其實是離婚的時候之前在這段婚姻當中"},{"start":2741.16,"end":2766.732,"text":"他有減損的這個減損我想當然是一個很準的時間點因為裁判離婚嘛就是一個離婚史或兩院離婚的時候離婚史那時候就一個檢視的一個時間點當然那個原因事實的行為可能會發生在婚姻關係程序中的那個都有那我想這部分也要是保障一個離婚的另外的一個補償的保障他的一個生活嘛"},{"start":2767.652,"end":2791.954,"text":"剛剛相關報告有提到 贍養費是具有補償婚姻的貢獻這件事是補償的功能那為什麼現在送進立法院的這個草案版本還是保留這個再婚即消滅的制度這個部分我也是經過思考然後我今天想跟你討論這個問題如果贍養費是為了補償過去的婚姻制度婚姻的貢獻為何會因為未來身份改變"},{"start":2792.995,"end":2796.557,"text":"就一筆勾銷的呢這難道不然是長期救濟的一種思維嗎他在補償他過去那他身份改變了就不需要補償了嗎就一筆勾銷了嗎所以我想請問部長假設一個原來全職的配偶他因為前段婚姻他犧牲了也許20年的就業競爭力那難道再婚之後"},{"start":2817.291,"end":2833.077,"text":"該方原先喪失成長空間的職業啦 或減少就業的機會 包括升等 值等就能夠因此自動補回嗎 顯然是不會的所以我對於這個再婚籍消滅這部分 又因為說為了婚姻的補償這個概念我想請部長您可不可以簡單的回答 這樣子是有沒有漢格呢"},{"start":2840.521,"end":2856.669,"text":"我認為那個一個再婚再婚就是建立一個新的婚姻關係了那夫妻之間有撫養的一個義務啦那讓那個深入關係的單純化那事實上這不是我們國家發明的這個是我們有參考德國瑞士立法立法乾淨的分手也就是說"},{"start":2857.389,"end":2862.932,"text":"這個善良會對不起我現在第一句就是第一段就跟你問這是撫養義務的延伸還是說對婚姻的一個補償既然是一個補償這不是撫養義務因為夫妻離婚之後就沒有互相撫養的義務的這個問題所以不得我的疑慮所以委員你可能對這個撫養義務因為撫養義務是婚姻夫妻有撫養的義務所以我對於草案中保留再婚及消滅的部分那是一個生活會的一個補償"},{"start":2883.963,"end":2886.465,"text":"因為我們對弱勢離婚因為發生生活困難或者是就有機會減少或者那個那個能力 陌生能力的一個精神我有請教很多朋友齁就是說期待台灣現在的這個經濟那個變成說結婚越多的話那個那個是不是說會讓我們這個婚姻的一個"},{"start":2902.236,"end":2903.919,"text":"有個關係還可以再領贍養費不停不停我現在就事論理就是就理論理再婚即消滅就是期待他方再婚時補償責任的遺轉呢那不就跟贍養費是原配的補償說互相衝突嘛"},{"start":2920.049,"end":2940.714,"text":"你的意思是說他再結婚了那你過去的補償都不算數就不要再補償我想這個先進國家那個德國瑞士那個世界很先進的國家他們那個對這一種的要乾淨的分手因為今年那個再婚了就是新的婚姻的關係的一個建立有新的一個生活那變成說你現在再婚的配合跟原來的離婚的配合還要供養撫養要補償那個"},{"start":2942.854,"end":2963.44,"text":"那個一個雙重的一個一個我對你就是換個思考你就聽 我也很認真在思考我想這個是外國的立法律有非常清楚的一個立法律而且實行得非常好再婚不會改變前段婚姻它因為就業簽署的事實再婚的話因為前段婚姻已經結束了嘛那只是再婚只是因為對生活的一個比喻這是我們過去也思維嘛我對我們現在就是要討論啦這樣要修法嘛因為世界新的國家就是用這一套的再處理的嘛"},{"start":2966.301,"end":2972.705,"text":"這次的正當性就是來自過去為一個家庭的犧牲跟奉獻所以贍養費的求全基礎就不應該因為再婚的事實跟否定這個是本席目前跟院版修法方向最大的分歧我還是請部長好好思考因為本次修法竟然是依循112年限判制第四號的判決要平衡離婚自由"},{"start":2989.295,"end":3015.521,"text":"跟弱勢保障的核心修改的配套措施而且善養費又被視為這次弱勢該判決的一個意旨所以在本次修法當中才會納入機會成本的補償概念所以我想請教部長法務部是否願意重新檢討思考善養費因再婚而消滅的這條款其實跟你所謂的補償機制的完整性不依身份而變動是打折扣的"},{"start":3016.992,"end":3030.488,"text":"我想這個經過我們多方的一個討論學者專家還有外國的立法律我們是有得到這樣的一個先進的法治非常講邏輯跟道理那我覺得我們本部"},{"start":3032.21,"end":3057.067,"text":"的意見就是依照行政院院版的這個意見因為這經過各部會專家學者機關代表的一個討論因為主席都不給我時間等一下幫我消音博定我還是請教你另外一個問題我還是請你好好的思考剛剛我講的精神補償不會因為你再婚那你就移轉給另外一個人了嗎不是嘛就是補償他過去這一段的貢獻或是他的減損那博定我要請教你"},{"start":3057.807,"end":3069.481,"text":"八德外一間擴建工程延宕的事因為我們前立委這個黃國昌講了很多次我不再講贅述內容背景請問部長十個月前那個黃正次他被尋時回憶他說會針對審計部所提的報告進行檢討工程案那請問出來了沒有"},{"start":3076.65,"end":3082.834,"text":"檢討報告出來沒有誰負責有沒有誰要受到這個懲罰我具體的提問針對那個審計部他認為應該適用政府採購法第99條卻沒有去適用這是他講的話不是我講的話辦理過程顯現合法這個就是不法的意思部長那法務部要不要檢討要不要承認這是違法的啊審計部說的不是我說的啊"},{"start":3101.309,"end":3116.156,"text":"他這個黃國昌委員他那時候在去年有質詢的那一部分那事實上我們本部有在去年這個檢討報告也就有回覆了黃志答應了他現在都高調離開要去參選了耶他沒有高調離開啦他是我們全部參選 好好好大家都知道嘛法務部應該要交到立法院的檢討報告那你什麼時候可以給我們嘛"},{"start":3128.968,"end":3137.972,"text":"因為為什麼呢 這個部長你也清楚 六天前監察院報告有指出花了29億的歪一間這個在去年8月20日就已經含糊了沒有 這個檢討報告 你也知道第一階段 第二階段延宕時間一個365天 一個1073天耶那我想這個延宕的這個情形 這個是一個廠商的一個停工嘛"},{"start":3151.357,"end":3153.5,"text":"那部長我再講更細緻的部分兩階段的缺失到今年月為止 總共有5099項第一階段的工程甚至有17次的復驗"},{"start":3168.661,"end":3172.224,"text":"那其中16項 今天沒有改變喔沒有改進喔 到現在還沒有改進喔所以今天蔣介石署長沒有來啦我本來請教他 不過請部長就來回答面對同胞商如此低劣的施工品質施工品質跟長期延宕 有兩個問題嘛不只是延宕嘛 那個施工品質有幾千項的問題啊那為什麼沒有及時介入管理呢 強制管理作為呢"},{"start":3194.944,"end":3200.007,"text":"這個我們有要求他們要做一個改善所以他不改善的話我們就是有一個可以依照企業的來來那個那個罰錢喔那另外那個我們也是腳證書事實上有說是督導的那個巴德外間的那些工程嘛那我們要求他們要全部的來改善的一個缺失嘛那個安全品質嘛這個就想我們就按照企業的一個的規定不管是疏失"},{"start":3219.897,"end":3225.421,"text":"還是說擺著沒有去理他我們沒有擺著去理他我們就是要求他們一定要立即要改善他那不改善我們就花錢嘛23年7月他就進駐嘛但是現在到1月才啟動維護保養合約這兩年的空窗期耶都沒有設備維護紀錄也沒有考量管理跟運作的安全現在也在啟用收治那個受刑人"},{"start":3243.513,"end":3258.526,"text":"一個是延宕嘛 一個就是這樣嘛有 那這個我們都有去做小正部的公文這樣子不好他的新聞稿說都歸咎於外部不可控的責任啦你不能說出事 都說外部的問題啦什麼新冠啦 什麼一大堆問題你自己還是有要檢討的這個部分啦"},{"start":3262.208,"end":3269.872,"text":"因為如果這件事都不能夠好好有一個檢討報告處理老實說啦我們快要檢視法務部的寵預算因為這個東西在你在幾次的復驗當中你耗費那麼久的時間我們真的會擔心浪費耗納稅人的納稅錢你說叫我們怎麼來審理過去的這些都還沒補正啊委員關係的這個問題我再請教證書再提書面報告"},{"start":3287.639,"end":3290.681,"text":"一定要的啦 不能再拖延了啦當時為什麼那麼多措施 幾千項措施 沒有人去介入管理啊然後又空轉兩年多 完全沒有保養 沒有安全的營運服務我們矯正署是很負責任 是有去"},{"start":3304.748,"end":3320.236,"text":"我聽說這樣看到工程是這樣在做的所以審計部跟工程會都有提出糾正我們假設做了哪些以及廠商做了哪些的要求措施這部分我們再用書面報告那您的報告什麼時候可以讓我知道呢就是你究責的情況"},{"start":3321.414,"end":3338.079,"text":"那我想一週 一個禮拜好不好一個禮拜 那我要清楚看到了因為主席要趕我了 但是請你記得 拜託你這些事情我們要了解 這是我們的責任就行政機關好好做 我們好好監督謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝 這是比較專業的對話不是我趕你 我怕你被謝龍介趕走接下來我們請謝龍介委員來做詢答"},{"start":3349.929,"end":3350.649,"text":"請問法務部正部長委員長補充辛苦"},{"start":3376.719,"end":3381.804,"text":"法務部最不簡單就是我們登記以來已經建立了檢測官調動的一個機制"},{"start":3386.649,"end":3396.579,"text":"我請教你每一年檢測官的調動大概都在什麼時間八月底左右這是一個通案調動嗎那平時的話有個別的需求嗎檢測官調報來辦公也是過去有嗎"},{"start":3405.756,"end":3430.19,"text":"這個調布測試延期很久我想各部會各個機關都有這個樣的調布的一個機制嘛那檢察官會有調布調去國安會辦公過去有沒有這個例子我們沒有從來歷史上從沒到以後大概我們大概沒有這個調檢察官去到國安會辦事的這個這個先例空洩不來風啊"},{"start":3433.052,"end":3452.742,"text":"我相信你也很了解老總統的性格我也很了解他對很多事情是很嚴謹的尤其是你的制度跟保守動力之間如果是違背分寸對他來說這是一個很嚴重的事情當然"},{"start":3458.001,"end":3474.133,"text":"民間在團結這個國安會 因為國安會主席就是總統嘛所以總統如果在那邊 他如果知道這個情形是有藍圈的嫌疑這樣最好總統 他如果是事先不瞭解他就會覺得說有人欺騙他他會選擇就是想拖下人欺騙他"},{"start":3484.761,"end":3487.606,"text":"這個委員 國安會委員還要跟法務部來調這個檢察官來國安會辦公這個事情"},{"start":3495.191,"end":3505.303,"text":"你認不認識這個事情這個我們已經用我們新聞稿有澄清我有看你的新聞稿我們新聞稿國安會也有澄清嘛沒有這回事啦我想這個是誤傳啦你不要說誤傳我現在說一個詞寫下去聽我現在說一個詞寫下去聽"},{"start":3516.696,"end":3523.621,"text":"調辦事一定要依照一個程序啊沒有調辦事沒有這回事啦你現在是不是有說過要經濟啊這個是我們調法務部辦事啊有嘛喔好來調法務部辦事你聽我說嘛我知道啦沒事情就好你貪婪衣對"},{"start":3539.741,"end":3564.703,"text":"卡蘇調來這個主任檢察官 因為你是說現在這個主任檢察官他已經來到法務部兩年要告了嘛你的新聞局是這樣啦所以 因為我們那個檢察官現在在沒關係啦 要告啦 你現在要再選掉一個選掉一個 你就是依公開徵詢嘛 可不可以他公開徵詢不就按照我們制度來公開徵詢嘛好啊 最好這個如果姓馬的"},{"start":3567.718,"end":3571.299,"text":"我現在跟你說這樣就好了,是不是這樣我不知道來我現在就跟你說這樣嘛,人家跟我講,我講給你聽,你回去注意一下你回去注意就是說這個有報名的"},{"start":3584.906,"end":3596.972,"text":"我現在跟你說是不是小媽的 最好來這個人已經去總統府看過辦公室 我比較要跟你說他如果沒有做這些事情 我跟你說什麼人家在處理這些事情是沒有跟你說的嘛人家沒有讓你知道嘛你有可能你是屬下比較知道嘛所以我今天藉用這個機會跟你說"},{"start":3608.973,"end":3613.982,"text":"在這三個月以來 董事人已經去到總統府看過辦公室了"},{"start":3616.155,"end":3635.53,"text":"我不是說今天這樣 最好你是不了解的情形下有可能老總統 阿基隆沒比賽基中這對我們國家體育就不正常嘛再來 四月份這個調辦事本來就是一個很正常的一個機制嘛那個在法務部辦事沒有啦 在法務部辦事他去總統府看辦公室要幹什麼啦"},{"start":3639.993,"end":3653.425,"text":"這個我第一次聽到所以我告訴你嘛聖空委員報告我們完全是走程序的我知道啦我沒有適宜你的程序啦我沒有質疑你的程序啦我不會道聽途說"},{"start":3657.168,"end":3661.671,"text":"阿不然你現在把總統府這裡的監視器都給這三個月拿出來查看看有沒有阿不然我跟你說的是屬性嘛我用屬性來跟他說你不需要這樣嘛給你 我再給你補充八月份要再調一個"},{"start":3676.431,"end":3677.892,"text":"今天四月二、三我告訴你這個"},{"start":3704.252,"end":3706.533,"text":"你現在說要經濟,最好就是這樣我現在跟你說的就是,人家已經去總統府看過辦公室我認為一個委員、國安會這麼深重的機構不需要因為這樣,最好你如果不知道,總統不知道經營什麼發生這個事情,對我們大家都不好,這樣好不好"},{"start":3727.262,"end":3735.529,"text":"好 謝謝謝榮謝榮這位 我要講 我要建議你這講對他們來說 都傳聞 你知道嗎你請我討論一下 如果有了 我就補兌說這樣就行處理了有你就請我看 對不然我都不知道你是在援補還是說真的 還是說假的補兌這個我幫你倒處理 如果真的我會跟你講對不對 要不然我講是啦 讓補兌也這樣做"},{"start":3756.158,"end":3757.459,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員來做詢答"},{"start":3785.727,"end":3790.729,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我們請法務部長 政部長請政部長委員早好 部長早那部長本席今天還是先就這個《民法親屬片》這次的增訂1057條之三離婚後的這個贍養制度的修法方向跟你這邊做一個這個詢答跟討論"},{"start":3814.336,"end":3828.601,"text":"目前法務部版本的設計是將贊養費請求權與未到期之定期給付一律歸給權利人在婚或死亡時來消滅但是本席認為這有一個很關鍵的問題我們在這邊需要來考量"},{"start":3833.542,"end":3849.057,"text":"也就是在不同類型的贍養費它的法律性質不太一樣所以本席這邊提出來的版本是將贍養費的兩種類型做更細緻的一個處理所以第一個部分是因為離婚陷於生活困難所產生的撫養性質的贍養費"},{"start":3852.04,"end":3879.465,"text":"那麼第二個部分是因婚姻分工導致就業能力減損所生的補償性質的贍養費那本席認為這兩者在法理上應該有不同的處理方式那麼第一類呢也就是撫養性質的贍養費這個基礎在於婚姻關係延伸的撫養義務因此當權利人再婚之後撫養責任已經依法由新配偶來承擔那麼"},{"start":3881.246,"end":3893.446,"text":"如果人有錢配偶來持續負擔會有撫養利益重疊的問題我想這是法務部的一個看法那也就是剛才其實陳委員這邊有跟部長這邊做一個討論"},{"start":3894.673,"end":3924.179,"text":"那麼所以這樣的情況下呢規定在再婚時消滅是合理的而且符合制度邏輯那您說國外也有這樣子的大概立法例都這樣那但是第二類也就是補償性質的贍養費那麼本席認為這個性質不一樣這一類的請求權是基於婚姻存續期間的角色分工那麼例如一方投入了家庭那麼犧牲了就業機會導致離婚後在經濟上處於不利的地位"},{"start":3924.599,"end":3926.061,"text":"但這個不是撫養的問題這是在婚姻當中因為機會成本的補償那麼本席認為這類補償性質的善養費不應該因為再婚而當然消滅"},{"start":3939.858,"end":3956.595,"text":"否則呢這個婚姻當中長期不對等的分工所造成的經濟不利這個部分就沒有辦法做一個處理那我想這個思考的脈絡在國際上的一個性平等跟實質公平的發展趨勢應該是一致的所以本席這邊請教部長"},{"start":3958.157,"end":3982.015,"text":"那麼目前法務部的版本將不同性質的贍養費來做一體試用再婚及消滅的一個規定是不是能夠再進一步來區分它的性質就如同剛才本席這邊所講的那如果沒有區分那你是不是認同本席這邊所說的可能會產生一些實質不公平因為過去已經投入的這個時間是沒有辦法再補償回來的"},{"start":3983.396,"end":4003.337,"text":"那導致經濟上的相對弱勢這也是事實所以對於本席提出來的補償性贍養費不應再婚消滅的這個設計法務部認不認同本席在法理上的一個區別的一個基礎那本席認為這個部分法務部應該可以再納入再來做一個思考"},{"start":4004.258,"end":4020.431,"text":"那麼最後一個部分是考量我國已經重視婚姻當中無酬的家務勞動跟性別平等的議題那未來在贊養費的制度設計上那麼法務部是不是可以認同我們朝向更精緻一點更類型化來做一個區分而不是"},{"start":4021.212,"end":4035.585,"text":"一體試用那這可能可以解決我相信應該很多人提出來的這有關於山羊肺的這個問題所以是不是可以做一個分類跟分級我這個部分是不是可以做一個參考那不知道部長您這邊的看法"},{"start":4036.89,"end":4062.532,"text":"了解 謝謝委員那委員對這個研究的很深他還做比較細緻的一個分類那的確這個善良會是一個補償的一個性質那的確委員有講過說因為在婚姻關係程序中有些有一方因為是分工合作有些人去上班有些人是從事家務那家務事實上是在我們維繫一個婚姻是一個非常重要的一環那所以說在不管是兩人離婚或者是裁判離婚"},{"start":4063.032,"end":4079.168,"text":"那這些一定要算入這整個一個報酬包括生意財產的分配包括善良會的做一個補償我認為這個都是我們現在法務部我們提出的後來到行政院版都是用這個精神去保障這一些的婚姻的一個"},{"start":4081.31,"end":4104.936,"text":"結束後的一個生活的一個問題那當然那為什麼我們會認為是再婚因為再婚他有經營另外一個新的生活了一個新的一個生活那夫妻我在講他夫妻再婚的配偶跟以現在那個再婚的配偶跟你新配偶他們之間有互付養的一個義務了那我想這個這部分應該"},{"start":4106.096,"end":4122.825,"text":"如果說要再有離婚配偶再去提供善良會的話是不是離婚的配偶跟新配偶對這個要雙重的一個利益因為究竟就像委員講的既然善良會是一個補償性的性質補償既然是補償性質我們認為這個有重複的一個計算的一個"},{"start":4129.318,"end":4152.47,"text":"利益的一個問題所以為什麼這個在外國的立法例像德國瑞士他們立法例為什麼要把再婚跟死亡當作善養會的一個一個請求權的一個消滅的一個室友這就是就是這樣的一個考量那我想我們外國的先進的立法例他們也實行了這樣也經過多方面專家寫一個機關代表的一個討論我們是認為這部分吼當然我們非常欽佩委員對這部分有有比較細緻的一個分類但是我們認為"},{"start":4157.772,"end":4183.969,"text":"在一個婚姻的一個善養會的一個補償性質我們認為這部分我們認為我們是採比較保留的一個看法所以今天特別提出來討論就是說本席這邊提出來的事實上也做一個分級啦那在補償其實還有一些更細緻的這個部分就重要就是說過去已經付出的時間跟實際的投入是很難就這樣子的關係就直接切斷的所以本席這邊也提供一個參考您剛才有講到這個你們"},{"start":4186.07,"end":4205.107,"text":"也參考了過去像德國或是外國有這樣的一個例子這樣的一個立法例但是重點就是說您可能要考慮一下這些國家它其實在社會文化上就不太一樣在相對的婚姻中間的一個平等關係或投入的這個關係有社會文化的一個很大的影響"},{"start":4206.048,"end":4229.956,"text":"所以雖然這些先進國家是這個做法可是可能我們要了解這些先進國家本身在社會文化跟性別平等的這個整個歷史文化上或許走得比我們更長久一點所以在我們實際的這個婚姻關係裡面其實在性別投入家務或投入的部分導致經濟上後續的一個不平等這個是"},{"start":4231.076,"end":4249.08,"text":"真的有的事實我想在很務實的現在社會狀況會有這樣的一個情形委員擔心的我想大家都擔心這個問題啦就是說看起來在婚姻弱勢的一方面因為他沒工作因為我長久沒有我本來就因為很好的工作婚姻而導致的所以說我們那個其實有剩餘財產分配請求錢這部分喔譬如說有工作人員那邊有職業年金的一個問題啦這部分是可以做這樣的一個平衡的一個做一個"},{"start":4259.062,"end":4260.102,"text":"你們可能考慮到其他的一些可能性"},{"start":4282.967,"end":4295.895,"text":"他那個是其實他那個年輕人那部分是可以處理這個區塊啦這個是不過年輕人的部分可能也比較難掌握啦本席這邊重申啦這是修法的一個重點啦這樣就是在這個贍養費的這個如何給付還有"},{"start":4299.137,"end":4317.991,"text":"來 重點就是說如何認定他的性質但在制度上好好的區分一下撫養跟補償才能夠比較兼顧公平我本席在這邊建議法療務部再做更深入一點這個思考好不好在最後我們再來做一個更深的一個解釋我們委員的意見我們都非常的重視所以我們會再做一個思考啦"},{"start":4318.331,"end":4322.936,"text":"好的好謝謝那接下來就是本席這邊再請教一下有關於民法第1052條離婚室友的一個修正方向那麼針對因他方故意犯罪而得請請求離婚的一個門檻"},{"start":4333.408,"end":4357.053,"text":"那法務部的版本目前是宣告六個月以上的有期徒刑把它提高了到兩年那這樣子的思維會不會對家庭暴力的防治毒品處理的問題跟性犯罪被害人的保護會不會產生不利的影響那麼部長您可不可以說明為什麼要從六個月提高到兩年那這部分我請代理事長來回答好嗎這個"},{"start":4361.055,"end":4370.747,"text":"主席好 委員好那針對這個問題其實因為刑度的款次本來是只有逾六個月那因為它實在是太寬鬆了可是當你們認為寬鬆的時候剛才本席講的那幾個情形可能會因為時間而產生一些危險"},{"start":4376.214,"end":4403.516,"text":"因為像我們調整到兩年之後那其實很多室友會跑到那個有關虐待或是其他室友或是在破綻主義這邊會處理不會有漏接狀況尤其是在我們比較最care的家暴的狀況底下其實在第一項的其他款式的有責主義裡面其實很多都可以應用那至於說有其他有可能是屬於破綻主義底下的我們第二項其實也有概括條款可以應用應該是不會出現漏洞"},{"start":4405.042,"end":4424.7,"text":"市長所以我這邊其實還蠻關心就是說剛才我們講了這個時間從六個月到兩年中間會產生很多高度的風險跟不確定性然後最重要你們是不是有進行過這樣一個量化評估針對本席講的可能性然後最重要是說你們有沒有跟民間家暴防治跟私改會私改相關的這個團體"},{"start":4426.041,"end":4445.937,"text":"有充分的溝通那這樣最重要就是六個月到兩年之間本席所講的那些情形你們認為不會但在實務操作上你們有過很量化的一個結果嗎還是跟實務上接觸的團體那他們所回饋的一個情形你們有充分掌握嗎這個很重要就是說那這一次的這個修法方向"},{"start":4446.698,"end":4466.225,"text":"那是不是有機會維持六個月然後來兼顧食物操作跟被害人保護的一個方案那剛才本席講的部分你們是不是應該能夠確實做到跟相關的團體來確認實際執行上跟你們法律修改的這樣一個情形有沒有可能產生一些落差還有實際情形喔 實際情形"},{"start":4468.846,"end":4490.583,"text":"其實因為我們親屬片的修正的過程其實非常的嚴謹這整個過程當中其實邀請的各位研修委員其實就很多是實務界的專家本身就有實務的審判經驗那另外我們在整個法官推論過程當中其實都有預告跟徵詢相關意見的機關的動作那這些東西在評估的時候其實我們都有綜合考量過"},{"start":4491.283,"end":4507.801,"text":"那不過委員您提的我們會再重新再檢視看會不會有漏網之魚不過目前盤點的過程事實上認為應該是在相關的款次裡面其實是應該可以接得住球啦因為我們整個立法方向其實是要放寬離婚的要件而不是要限縮所以"},{"start":4508.822,"end":4535.682,"text":"那個離婚的要件這樣看起來就是會有這個還蠻長一段時間的一個風險所以本席這邊因為時間的關係本席這邊還是跟你們提醒那整個部分本席這邊討論的是保障而不是提高門檻那對被害者的一個保護不能因為時間的這個提高而產生更多的風險好不好那請那個部裡面這邊還是把本席的這個意見再納入這個後續的一個參考好嗎謝謝"},{"start":4539.79,"end":4562.297,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員 接下來請張雅琳委員來做選擇謝謝主席 我們有請部長請鄭部長 和檢察司副司長檢察司副司長委員長"},{"start":4563.513,"end":4583.513,"text":"好 早 首先我想跟部長還有副市長來討論有關於台中地院出現中國律師這件事情我想兩位應該都知道發生了什麼事嘛 對吧就是那個中國律師的那個就是一個出庭的一個民事案件"},{"start":4587.882,"end":4607.901,"text":"台中地檢署這次對於中國律師雖然有收錢但是因為沒有辦法認定他是出於營利目的去辦理這個訴訟案件所以是不起訴簡單來說是這樣子但是我認為這個樣子的認定真的是合理嗎這待會想要跟大家來請教因為現在根據這個公開資料這個律師其實已經收了五萬塊人民幣"},{"start":4608.982,"end":4622.774,"text":"而且不是一次收完是分階段收那這個收呢還是照這個案件的進度來收所以呢這其實跟這個案件最終有沒有處理完有一個非常高度的連結可是呢如果他今天說他只是一個法務諮詢那為什麼訴訟會跟收錢的進度綁得這麼緊"},{"start":4627.495,"end":4651.607,"text":"所以我認為這次不起訴最大的問題是在於檢方看這件事情呢其實是看得太表面只有看名稱這件事情因為對方只要把錢寫成是法律顧問費那檢方就認為這不是盈利的意圖但是民間其實有非常多的律師也認為說那以後是不是就質疑說以後是不是說任何說自己任何一個沒有律師資格的人只要把錢不要把錢"},{"start":4652.567,"end":4678.124,"text":"寫成律師費改寫成顧問費法務費或其他的名目都可以躲掉律師法的處罰呢那這樣子律師法127條到底還有什麼意義所以我想喔這個雖然說過去有很多號稱法律專業的委員或者是說民間有一些詐團律師是摧毀了大家對法律的信任但是我相信還是有非常非常多法律專業的人應該是被好好的保障"},{"start":4679.005,"end":4694.432,"text":"那我想請教一下部長跟副司長的意見如果說我們今天在這件事情在不起訴的邏輯上那未來一個沒有我國律師的資格只要掛上法務顧問各種名義他都可以來參與的話那這樣子是不是直接幫非法職業開後門呢"},{"start":4697.859,"end":4714.216,"text":"謝謝委員的一個詢問那我想這是一個台中地檢署是一個個案的一個處理那當然以法務部的立場我們對個案我們是不干涉不介入不知道的因為個案的話應該依照證據依照法律上的一個見解法律上的規定來"},{"start":4715.362,"end":4743.535,"text":"來判斷來做一個判斷那所以這部分他那個結論當然我因為我沒辦法去干涉個案所以我只能尊重台中地檢檢察官的個案的一個判斷那另外剛才我也有提到那個律師法127條的那個問題那事實上那個意圖盈利這一部分當然關鍵是有意圖盈利就是說他是不是在這個訴訟的一個事件裡面他是不是有另外的收賄的一個問題當作那個律師執行律師會用的一個報酬"},{"start":4744.215,"end":4767.422,"text":"那這部分 那的確 那顯然就是有啊那個我們就講實務上的一個見解就是說行為人若意圖藉由受任辦理個別訴訟事件 個別啦 個案啦而取得相當執行律師業務的報酬那當然這個就是有對價啦這就是有對價 那我想這是實務上的見解那今天司法院民視廳廳長他們來 我想"},{"start":4772.904,"end":4798.724,"text":"待會我也會請教他 邵家庭 司法院他們也有他們這個案件是在台中地院的一個民事的一個事件 那個法官是給有允許他來當訴訟代理沒關係 待會我會問司法院啦 所以我這樣聽起來就是說法務部對於這樣子的一個 我尊重他 當然他這個見解他這個有司法院他們的那個法院的一個實務上的見解剛才我跟委員報告 這都是法院的實務上的一個見解"},{"start":4799.825,"end":4819.139,"text":"這個可以做一個參考 這個見解是司法院他們的見解沒關係 部長我知道了 對我待會會問司法院 我剛剛也有說所以我現在是要做個結論就是說聽起來就是說你們對於這樣子的態度就是尊重啦沒有覺得這樣子 你們就覺得就是尊重因為那個個案我...沒關係我知道了 那我們請司法院我們請司法院"},{"start":4829.099,"end":4848.448,"text":"我想了解一下司法院對這件事情的看法我認為法院在這次對於非訴訟代理人的資格審查上面可能沒有把關好了在網路上面一查就知道這個律師其實是在中國職業很多年的律師本來就是長期從事法律的工作知道了台灣法院他又說自己是奧地利公司的員工"},{"start":4849.548,"end":4866.327,"text":"因為他拿不出充分清楚而且讓人家信服的一個證明文件所以我想問一下是說我們到底在法院上的制度上面有沒有可以事先釐清或是實質審查的部分還是我們會等到他先進入程序之後有人執意的時候才又提出來才來處理呢"},{"start":4868.508,"end":4884.517,"text":"報告委員 目前實務的操作是有法跟執法的依據民宿訴訟法的第68條只要是非律師他要擔任受委任的訴訟代理人 要經過審判長許可"},{"start":4886.218,"end":4915.492,"text":"那因此有一個授權執法規叫民事事件委任非律師為送帶領的許可準則那這時候審判長他就必須有相當的調查或者是相當的一個一個審佐的義務啦齁那這裡面第二條第三條都有明定剛剛委員垂詢的那幾個問題所以制度面是有但是呢就是委員問到怎麼去精進這個因為大家都看到沒有查明他是"},{"start":4916.536,"end":4917.384,"text":"中國大陸的律師"},{"start":4918.82,"end":4947.67,"text":"因為這樣看起來好像就是變成是審判長當天各個自己來判斷的感覺啦是對所以我們只是在想說因為其實這民間其實有非常多我相信你們一定都有收到民間律師的一些意見對於這件事情的基本上是質疑啦所以我想就是說因為他們也會擔心說這會不會變成境外人士用這個方式來鑽漏洞所以我認為這件事情應該必須要來強化我們對於外國的律師來台灣從事法律事務的一個監管機制"},{"start":4947.99,"end":4970.351,"text":"特別是如果外國律師要來台灣執行業務的時候呢都必須要登記加入這個律師公會所以我想了解一下就是說我了解那個司法院我想再請教法務部所以對於這件事情的話法務部你們對於這個目前的制度問題上面還有入境審查身份認定等等的有沒有一些具體的強化方案呢"},{"start":4971.277,"end":4996.714,"text":"那的確是因為法務部是律師法的一個主管的一個機關我們是主管的一個機關那當然我們全立會他對這部分他是認為還要再加強監管就像委員是講的那我想這個議題是非常的一個重要那因為這個有跨部會的問題因為不是只有法務部只是法規的單純就還有陸委會我知道所以我是說你們接下來會來跟相關部會來做檢討嗎我們再來做一個一個一個研議"},{"start":5002.258,"end":5007.363,"text":"來做一個規劃處理區塊這樣聽起來就是說部長也願意來跟我們相關的部會主管來討論如何檢討強化這個機制嘛對不對那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤相關的進度呢需要多久的時間"},{"start":5022.557,"end":5036.686,"text":"我們是不是三個月好不好三個月喔那因為這個跨部會不是只有本部的事情好了那我希望三個月前後我們可以這個可能要到行政院可能還要到應該這個應該是你們可以先有一個出你們一定會有一個先出稿嘛"},{"start":5037.734,"end":5063.42,"text":"那那個我們再先召會召會我們還要再三個月吧好不好我們三個月要有這個相關的進度好嗎我們再跟委員報告好那接下來下一個部分是有關於1052條的這個有關於這一次我們講說夫妻如果五年內分居累積達三年的話就可以向法院訴請離婚那我想要具體的請教一下部長就是說"},{"start":5064.98,"end":5087.628,"text":"這個分居的計算到底是什麼是沒有住在一起就算還是要完全沒有共同生活就算那如果說有人因為工作嘛現在有人就是在兩地工作嘛沒有住在一起或是有人要照顧家長啊照顧長輩啦或是照顧小孩啊他們沒有住在一起那這樣到底算不算分居啊這個定義上面到底算不算這部分我請那個市長來回答"},{"start":5092.799,"end":5110.366,"text":"報告委員 目前我們民法雖然對分居這兩個字是沒有定義但是在相關的法治裡面分居是常見的文字而且在一般社會通念上是容易理解的那我們還是回到夫妻之間因為我們現在寫是持續分居不是寫持續分居 我們是寫五年內累積分居三年"},{"start":5114.708,"end":5134.902,"text":"那累積是其實我們要處理 倒不是說今天租一起 明天沒租一起 後天要租一起這種零散的狀態 我們真正要處理的是可能會有數段 比如說可能是一年或是一年半累積起來在五年累積起來之後 加起來超過三年的一個狀況所以法院要開始計算日子是嗎計算日子"},{"start":5135.402,"end":5161.493,"text":"其實這不管採連續制或是採所謂的累積制都會有這個問題因為我們的立法方向是只要那一天是處於無正當理由而為共同居住的狀況可能就是跟實務上所講的不均那不好意思喔 市長我想請教一個狀態我想請教就是說因為我們把這個表面上看起來是要放寬離婚的自由啦對不對但是事實上如果有一些比較經濟強勢的他本來就可以住外面嘛 對不對"},{"start":5162.273,"end":5189.124,"text":"那他住外面然後他可以在因為他更有資源那這樣會不會造成那些相對比較弱勢因為他可能要顧小孩他沒有辦法搬出去住的人而因此被離婚呢這有沒有可能呢因為在你現在講的是他如果去計算的話那他相對來說他不想跟他一起住啊他出去自己外面住那這種會不會造成經濟弱勢的人反而是在一個不利處境呢這個採 無論採連續制或是採累積制都會有這個問題啦"},{"start":5190.865,"end":5219.5,"text":"那至於說因為有沒有分居有沒有或是所謂不同居其實是一個互相的狀態啦至於說請求的時候會不會有顯示公平我們在1052草案的第二項單數裡面其實有一個苛刻或者是所謂的顯示公平的條款去調解這種可能會產生極端不公平的狀況不好意思我想好我懂你的意思了因為我覺得這個可能在實務上法院上面到底要如何判我覺得也是在舉證上面會不會有一些問題我想請教一下司法院"},{"start":5220.92,"end":5238.997,"text":"對於這樣子的一個現在要做累積製然後對於在你們一到這個修法之後你們要去計算大家是不是分居多少時間這在你們食物上面會不會有什麼樣子的難度你們對這個法條的看法是什麼"},{"start":5240.038,"end":5259.559,"text":"是跟委員報告本院有多次的研究跟收集外國立法例那麼認為說這個以持續這個分區就是說以持續的客觀不同住達到一定的年限我們現在把它定這樣那各國立法例都是"},{"start":5260.26,"end":5286.322,"text":"持續一直繼續狀態中那麼因為這當中如果有剛剛委員舉例的那事實它會發生主觀跟客觀怎麼認定非常難所以國外我們找到的立法例幾乎都是以連續不同住的這樣客觀事實所以不是像現在這樣子可能有一段時間沒有住在一起有一段時間沒有住在一起是這樣子嗎所以國外跟我們現在立法的方向是不太一樣的"},{"start":5286.562,"end":5313.588,"text":"在國外不會這樣子在國外如果當中有中斷就不算了都是持續兩年或持續三年來入侵所以你們司法院目前對於這樣子的方向是意見不同的 對嗎我們是提出這樣的建議啦 謝謝好 了解喔 因為我想這還是會回到到底法院上可不可以實務的執行嘛好 了解囉好 謝謝那再回到 抱歉我再問最後一題就好就是再回到法務部"},{"start":5314.707,"end":5321.861,"text":"抱歉那我還有一個說法也是對於就是說我們在這一次的1115跟1116條裡面我們把"},{"start":5325.956,"end":5353.522,"text":"這個尊卿杯跟杯卿鼠尊卿鼠跟杯卿鼠拉得太近了讓我擔心是會讓未成年子女應該有擁有的優先保障權反而變得不夠清楚所以我也想要請教不管是部長或是副司長我想請教一下未成年子女跟長輩在法律上面的保障應該是一樣的嗎可以啊"},{"start":5355.137,"end":5373.758,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢,按照我們相關撫養的規定,我們目前是把直系血清被清除,是放在同一個區域,跟尊親屬一樣放在同一個區域,並沒有去區分成年或未成年所以我覺得未成年一個3歲的小孩跟一個65歲的長輩在法律的保障上應該是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":5376.241,"end":5392.049,"text":"這個其實是社會輪場的判斷跟我們社會是不是有凝聚共識啦所以副市長你沒有辦法告訴我說未成年子女一個完全三歲無法工作無法自立的小孩在法律上面的保障應該回到社會輪場"},{"start":5393.169,"end":5421.758,"text":"是嗎跟委員報告我們其實不能只看這一條我們要整看撫養的規定的話所謂的撫養權利人他所受的撫養權利必須是以他不能維持生活且無謀生能力來看那當然對尊親屬有一些部分有放寬但是對於嬰兒來講的話他是絕對符合這兩款那所以他享有的撫養權利是比較強的但是你現在是放在同一個位階嗎同一個順序嗎他在117條會另外做處理我們不會只看這條我們會整個體系來看"},{"start":5424.258,"end":5446.264,"text":"所以你是說你覺得在整個體系來看的話未成年子女的保障上面其實是還有在被法律保障的對嗎你的意思是這樣嗎當然有保障他的優先保障有被保障應該是說還是會看個案的具體狀況因為未成年也分很多狀況未成年也分說他已經17歲了他可能已經在工作也沒有在就學或者是他是3歲的幼兒"},{"start":5446.684,"end":5473.901,"text":"好沒關係好我想那我就一樣請教司法院啦我一樣請教司法院對於這一個你們自己的看法又是什麼呢因為我自己會認為說把未成年的子女優先保障權其實在這個現在的這樣子的立法上是會被模糊掉的啦是那我不曉得說司法院您的看法又是什麼報告委員我可不可以請我們調辦室專門研究這一部分的法官郭法官很迅速摘要回答可以嗎好可以好謝謝"},{"start":5475.347,"end":5494.14,"text":"主席跟委員跟委員報告我們那個未成年子女的撫養義務應該要優先所以我們認為要釐清那尤其在1084條到底要怎麼適用現在116都已經成為問題了那在現在這個行政院的版本把它們放在一起更會出現我們報告上寫那種三明治的狀況而且還會只有一個減輕撫養義務的問題"},{"start":5496.582,"end":5514.197,"text":"所以我們認為這個撫養現在真的建議先不要去修它那撫養要整個檢討因為我們的撫養醫務人其實有點太廣泛了應該要這樣快一百年了應該要做一個檢討跟修正好 了解那我這樣聽起來就是說在針對於民法再一次行政"},{"start":5515.518,"end":5528.381,"text":"法務部提出的這些修法的版本好像跟司法院上面還有一些要在整合的部分那我也希望就是說兩方應該要一併的整合啦避免說修法之後我們在實務上面判決上面會造成困難好嗎謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那接下來請沈發慧沈發慧委員 沈發慧沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧"},{"start":5552.196,"end":5554.477,"text":"好 那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員好 謝謝主席有請我們政部長還有我們司法院總廳長有請部長跟總廳長部長還有廳長我想今天排這個整個案子就整個離婚這民法的一個離婚我想最主要是"},{"start":5581.577,"end":5608.756,"text":"憲判制啊 大法官會議解釋出來以後啊我們也不得不處理啦 不得不處理啊那我想今天呢 其實不是只有在談離婚啦那是談一個很根本的一個問題啊我相信各位其實都是專家所以你看今天來的職訓呢大家都不敢跟你們介紹 你知道嗎說到你們的專家的時候 大家就可以借書來論書啦但是呢 本席倒有一個想法就是說你當一個婚姻已經破裂那我們要不要讓人有尊嚴的離開"},{"start":5610.557,"end":5634.956,"text":"一個制度啦 我們現在離婚是允許的但是我們的制度的設計是也沒有辦法來保障弱勢不被犧牲啦我坦白講啦 今天排這個案子 我就認為說現在的版本 我看行政院跟司法院這邊所提的報告裡面呢其實還是有不一樣的一個地方 是會有不一樣的地方就是說現在院版呢 你也沒有給出完整的一個答案"},{"start":5635.416,"end":5656.163,"text":"所以我才這樣一直主張說趕快要來召開公聽會來全面來檢視離婚以後整個經濟制度的經濟的一個保障制度從今天我看到了不管司法院或者行政院大家談的就幾項而已嘛比如說從有責你走到破綻那你對於整個財產的一個揭露"},{"start":5657.221,"end":5682.294,"text":"舉證責任到贍養費的一個標準我看這個接下來額外比較迅速公聽完語我們就一次做完整的一個制度的一個重建那整個制度其實它是在改變的就你整個離婚制度那麼多國家在改變其實我們也經過修法那制度讓離婚制度讓它更進步但是也會碰到一個問題啊我們也不能只讓"},{"start":5684.062,"end":5700.162,"text":"能走的人走掉然後弱勢的人留在原地這樣受傷我看這個也不對那從本來啊我們整個離婚制度是說本來是講說誰有誰不對誰有錯啊他現在變成說變得越來越寬鬆了就變成說"},{"start":5701.743,"end":5723.409,"text":"才破綻主義啦,你們就沒辦法做事啦,就隨人追求自己的幸福,那就可以了所以國際上的一個趨勢其實也很清楚,多數國家都逐步從過失走向婚姻是否實質的一個破裂啦那當然也去搭配了整個分居事實作為判斷的一個標準,跟一些刻苦的一個條款,就是說鬆綁啦"},{"start":5726.17,"end":5748.693,"text":"但是弱勢還是要去保護可是我發現一個問題司法院跟法務部這個地方針對於剩餘財產的一個分配對於離婚弱勢配偶的一個保障我看完以後我一直在想一個問題就是說我們現在的規定現行制度是否真的有用"},{"start":5750.305,"end":5755.712,"text":"有沒有辦法發揮它的作用有沒有辦法發揮它的作用你譬如說我們民法1030條1030條之3剩餘財產的保全措施的部分我們跟他講就說你這裡如果"},{"start":5765.325,"end":5784.27,"text":"你如果在法定財產至關稽消滅前五年內你處分貨財產的位我會想你給他動作 給他財產追加來做一個計算就變成形成是一種數字上的一個概念而已那實務上裡面大家在看這些問題的時候會講說資訊"},{"start":5787.031,"end":5803.896,"text":"不對稱啦有時候要撐起來你也沒辦法啦有時候也有一些反效果啦就自認為說我財產比較多的一方我擔心被反向去評分所以我也要去做一個注定啦所以現在行政院的修法裡面要求增訂的是財產清澈希望說可以請求他方提出財產清澈跟"},{"start":5809.81,"end":5831.889,"text":"以證明文件 以強化夫妻財產揭露的義務並落實剩餘財產分配請求權那司法院認為 你十萬年以來沒必要廳長我看了你們司法院的報告那是不是請法務部或者說司法院向社會大眾來做一個說明你們的差距在什麼地方 是不是 總廳長你來講一下"},{"start":5837.962,"end":5858.797,"text":"市長有關財產揭露的義務現在所針對的第二項 第一個欠缺比較具體的揭露內容第二個就是各項的明目 第二個欠缺了法定失權的效果他如果不提出有什麼失權效"},{"start":5859.798,"end":5882.905,"text":"那反而回到現行家事訴訟有夫妻可以提一個非送請求他提出財產的報告那這個不提出的話我們依照家事訴訟准用民訴就讓他失去那個所謂的效果來讓另一方得到那個利益這是我們第一個的想法"},{"start":5883.405,"end":5908.262,"text":"那第二個就是說這個部分因為他著重兩個立法目的第一個夫妻財產揭露的義務是要在這個平等權之下來落實就是雙方就財產的知悉權但第二個立法理由裡面有講到說他是也是屬於剩餘財產部分的一個公平的一個解決的一個方案讓他提出來結果呢我們剛剛委員有有有講了"},{"start":5913.965,"end":5938.975,"text":"之一 那陸續裡面他都有提出這樣的義務 審判長也有會議之前命他提出那麼這個是我們目前的思考但我們覺得這一條就是剛剛的10571022的這個可以 如果要那應該列到這個所謂的剩餘財產這一部分去這是以上我們的思考 謝謝"},{"start":5940.089,"end":5968.457,"text":"所以我看司法案件的意思就是說如果對方不提出或者隱匿甚至造假法律效果的保温就是說要再加進去再加進去之後再加計算這個婚禍的財產的保温其實剛剛廳長所提到這個部分比如說明確化配合財產報告義務的範圍行使方式跟違反的一個效果譬如說婚禍財產的項目數額財產所在地變動情況這些原因我的一本席的意思就是說"},{"start":5969.986,"end":5980.732,"text":"你司法院跟行政院 就是說我們應該再加一個 想想這個弱勢的配偶有沒有其他保障的一個機制啊重感就是這樣"},{"start":5982.326,"end":6001.041,"text":"我們認為還是院版的那個有節流義務因為我的意思就是我們不要只有宣示性這個要我認為是要有實質要定在實體法上那剛才司法院的看法那是屬於訴訟事件已經離婚事件裡面才有這樣的一個適用那我們是定在實體法上實體法上"},{"start":6002.642,"end":6025.877,"text":"不但是有打那個官司啦 離婚訴訟啦齁其實在一個離婚的話我們認為只要有碰到這個問題就要有提出了揭露的義務我認為這個對一個弱勢的一個離婚配偶這才有一個保障這才會落實一個勝於財產分配請求的一個公平性這才能真正保障弱勢的一個配偶啦是 我看整個修法裡面"},{"start":6027.493,"end":6042.045,"text":"這當然去參考其他全世界國際上各個國家的禮婚制度的一個修正台灣去跟上那當然是對的但問題就涉及到他靠北都講到錢尤其是靠北你剩餘財產嘛不然你再講到贍養費嘛像贍養費這個問題"},{"start":6046.628,"end":6073.063,"text":"這個制度其實以現在來看的話是幾乎是嚴重的一個失靈那院版的修法裡面確實是在往比較更正確的一個方向我現在就不只是我現在不給你局限裁判離婚我現在連協議離婚或是法案去調解和解各種法定的離婚方式全部都可以去請求了但問題來了等於說贍養費那到底是什麼如果你把它當成是一種婚姻期間的一個貢獻對他的一個補償的話"},{"start":6075.825,"end":6088.389,"text":"那好啦,那我們為什麼又再規定說再婚以後他喪失贊養會的一個請求權這個就奇怪了,所以我不知道你們這裡的看法聽眾你們看完了嗎?聽到嗎?"},{"start":6092.472,"end":6112.019,"text":"我說這個贍養費啦贍養費譬如說為什麼要給這個贍養費夫妻之一方要給離婚都變為贍養費就是說你對這個婚姻就有貢獻嘛時時有貢獻嘛可是我們現在修法又講說有貢獻所以給你贍養費可是呢你又去走向另外一段婚姻的時候又消滅掉了"},{"start":6114.2,"end":6127.669,"text":"報告委員這個分兩個部分一個部分大家剛剛都論述了一個就是所謂的補償性質一個就是撫養性質那因為參佐世界國新的立法例他一直強調"},{"start":6128.59,"end":6146.155,"text":"就是選擇這個所謂的一個裁量所謂的乾淨離婚就是讓這個家庭穩定社會穩定所以就不要再去跟前婚姻有所糾葛那是採取這樣不過在這個"},{"start":6147.875,"end":6172.993,"text":"補償性質的部分如果在剩餘財產其他部分都沒有補償其實我們研究的結果它真的是如果設計這樣是沒有所謂的這個對婦女所謂一切不歧視平等這部分似乎有待再斟酌了真的喔 我也認為啦所以我來 我趕快這個法因為憲判制也出來了"},{"start":6173.613,"end":6195.384,"text":"那確實是行政院這個地方法務部這個地方我們也該有所作為按照憲法法庭的一個指示我們趕快來完成這一步的一個法律的重新的一個修正我看我再來做一個公聽讓整個制度讓他聽聽各方的一個意見讓這個制度去往前走你看今天大家講的時候大家意見會有所不一樣可是問題這是"},{"start":6197.106,"end":6210.896,"text":"就聽聽司法院 聽聽法務部 聽聽法學專家專家來喔 十幾個高級政策都不一樣但面對這整個制度的一個變革我相信應該大家來共同來想出一個解方啦好 謝謝"},{"start":6225.319,"end":6229.06,"text":"好 謝謝那我們下一位有請翁曉琳委員好 謝謝主席在這裡有請鄭部長先請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長委員好部長好 我們好久不見了上個禮拜四本席這個安排的考察"},{"start":6255.037,"end":6271.684,"text":"怎麼可以臨時爽約呢這不是因為那個有那個其他的會議我想臨時爽約就是我們都已經全部安排好了你看連我們的零千級委員都買了那個車票提前都到了"},{"start":6272.952,"end":6291.491,"text":"花蓮然後你這樣臨時爽我們約喔這個不應該啦好不好不應該啦我沒有同意啊重點是我沒有同意好了而且呢這個基本上我們的當時安排已經是一個禮拜之前就已經講了對然後你是呢前一刻"},{"start":6292.612,"end":6306.467,"text":"我們要這個第二天要去考察然後你前一刻五點鐘才告訴我們說你要請假不能去對不對這樣的話基本上就是我跟妳講部長妳在這邊跟我們道歉我也就接受了對不對"},{"start":6310.564,"end":6337.759,"text":"現在竟然可以這麼不尊重立法院召委所安排的這個考察行程不過就是說我們上次的考察沒成功可是沒有成行我們基本上還會繼續再排考察我希望就是部長以後要尊重立法院司委會這裡的這個安排我們不是不盡人情但是這樣臨時耍我們基本上是很不應該的那接下來我想請教就是我們法務部的"},{"start":6339.223,"end":6359.981,"text":"這個正次黃謀信最近他已經被行政院提名要當中選會的委員我想請教部長在過去有沒有這個案例啊有沒有這個前例就是我們法務部的次長及以上人物曾經有被戒掉曾經有去當中選會的委員"},{"start":6362.523,"end":6379.908,"text":"這個是沒有潛力沒有潛力那這時候怎麼會有這樣的一個安排我想這個是一個堅韌的一個委員那我想這個對我們法務部的那個業務推動應該是沒有影響而且提供法律上的一個專業的一個意見"},{"start":6382.461,"end":6401.215,"text":"所以認為說他這樣子的這個去擔任中選會委員不會影響到法務部的業務嗎因為這次請那個我們黃某信次長因為他法學的我想委員都很清楚他法學非常的精湛那而且他沒有黨派他沒有黨派的"},{"start":6403.106,"end":6407.849,"text":"那當然如果說 今天金匯檢察官你說要去調查他們有履屬檔期嗎他現在不是檢察官 他現在是次長是我知道 對對對那我想他是因為他檢察官出身嘛我意思講說其實去看這個之後可能要不要也請你們提供給我們資料就是現在法務部"},{"start":6420.376,"end":6439.11,"text":"底下所屬的檢察官然後呢有多少人是有正式加入黨政黨的我們現在應該基本上沒有嘛現在那個法官法我們是完全是不能參加政黨的所以這個沒有黨派的黃國興市長他肯定是沒有加入任何的這個政黨不過我這邊是要講的一個議題就是說是因為呢今天這個新聞裡面也有在講國安會的這個"},{"start":6448.959,"end":6455.623,"text":"就是國安會的諮詢委員準備要找一位檢察官去當法務助理那當然這個新聞報導之後就輿論嘩然這個為什麼要再調判一位檢察官"},{"start":6468.57,"end":6483.846,"text":"去這個國安會可是呢本席其實有看到法務部所發布的新聞稿那麼事實上好像是不是長久以來就是法務部都會借掉一位檢察官去派駐在國安會呢"},{"start":6484.246,"end":6513.815,"text":"沒有沒有這回事那個各位的報告我們那個檢查全部就調辦室就是在法務部調辦室但是因為我們大概每個都有分工就譬如說有人是打詐的有些是毒品的有些是附幼的有些是國安的因為法務部也是屬於國安的一個安全體系的一環就像我們那個國家安全法啦反滲透法啦還有一些的包括我們偵辦的一些的譬如說那個營業秘密法或者是一些像某些科技公司的那些"},{"start":6514.295,"end":6525.6,"text":"所以這些要去我們是扮演一個協助各機關在國安的安全體系的我想今天大家比較關注的那個焦點就是說這個絕世的誤會所以我沒有發新聞澄清調辦的這位檢察官那他到底他的辦公地點在哪裡在保護部這個我請檢察司副司長來答這個有在規劃來請告訴我們"},{"start":6543.036,"end":6556.362,"text":"報告委員我們尋程序還有因為是我們的業務需求所以針調那個甲官到部裡面來辦事那我們有規劃他的那個辦公的空間所以那位甲官過來的時候辦公室是在甲四的辦公室所以他的正式的名稱叫做什麼他的職務的名稱調辦事主任甲官"},{"start":6558.928,"end":6587.588,"text":"是叫法務部檢察司國安會的辦事不是就是介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官所以他的辦公地點並不是在國安會但是他的業務就是去支援國安會不是他的業務是跟國安法制相關的不是資源是國安法制就負責比方說國安的相關的法制啊或者是像經濟間諜罪啊然後就是海蘭七法軍事審判法就是跟國安相關的法制內容"},{"start":6588.783,"end":6600.834,"text":"好那麼如果說是這樣子的情況之下的話我希望就是法務部也要在這個你們檢察官的體系裡面要把這些事情講清楚因為這個事情看起來是從你們檢察官的內網裡面所這個踢爆這個新聞"},{"start":6605.959,"end":6622.078,"text":"而且看起來大部分的檢察官也許並不知道否則的話怎麼會有說是去當這個國安會諮詢委員林志傑的法務助理那這樣子的一個情況事實上是就代表說可能法務部自己內部的溝通也有也出現了問題這個他不知道說到底為什麼會有這樣的一個"},{"start":6627.083,"end":6654.706,"text":"處理的方式所以這部分其實我們是這部分是有公告的喔是有公告的寫得非常清楚那我想這部分既然外界所以我們正式發信法寫得非常的詳細非常詳細我想說這個委員有手上有我們的新聞稿所以這部分我想問你的新聞稿對那當然就從這個議題裡面呢我這接下來我要延伸的就是說是我也希望能夠了解到底現在這個檢察署有多少的人力是戒掉"},{"start":6655.487,"end":6684.559,"text":"或是借調到各個機關或借調到法務部的人力也就是調辦室的檢察官有多少那所以也請法務部你們可以在一個禮拜之內可以提供給我相關的資訊過去五年調辦室檢察官有多少要調任的期間以及分布在哪些單位然後法務部有沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊如果按照剛剛部長講似乎是沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊好 那麼最後我要在這個議題上面我想要講就是說因為基層的"},{"start":6685.439,"end":6702.316,"text":"地檢署基本上大家工作量都非常大然後大多數的檢察官都過勞所以呢大家也會去思考就是說到底現在這個調辦室的制度檢察官借調的制度到底合不合理那我也希望法務部這邊能夠通盤檢討"},{"start":6704.438,"end":6731.196,"text":"畢竟在早期這個段宜康民進黨的立委段宜康他當時曾經也批評過那時候的時任法務部部長羅瑩雪說檢察官的借調制度混亂那麼也批評就是說不可以把這個就政府執政黨不可以把檢察官當成是法務助理這樣會糟蹋司法官那本席希望說鄭部長你可以把這個議題好好的去這個檢討好不好"},{"start":6734.618,"end":6755.669,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員的一個指導那我想包括司法院我們都是因為這個是包括司法的這是相當的一個專業那的確是要有調辦事比如說涉犯調法官去辦事因為有些是法案的問題這部分檢察官也是法案的問題這個都非常的專業高度的專業那這部分的話就麻煩請你跟我一個資料我們之後有機會的話我們再來討論那接下來我可能還要再請那個中廳長"},{"start":6767.086,"end":6793.327,"text":"這個本席基本上有注意到這次其實司法院對於修正院的這個民法親屬篇的修正案其實有很多的不同的意見包含像1052條的分居的定義1057條的贍養費還有撫養義務102條的提出採採清澈等等這些規定那麼有些是認為說我們的意見有些是認為說是跌床架屋目前的規定其實已經夠處理了所以草案還有很多要討論的地方"},{"start":6793.807,"end":6807.663,"text":"那接下來本席想要請教的兩個問題第一個就是說在目前的夫妻財產揭露義務的執行上面行政院版基本上他的夫妻財產揭露義務主要是還是focus比較聚焦在所謂的傳統的財產型的義務"},{"start":6810.478,"end":6816.043,"text":"那麼可是我們知道現在的這個財產已經不限制於是傳統的財產還包含所謂的虛擬財產所以對於虛擬財產的部分呢未來是不是可以把它列為就是在財產清澈上面必須要公開的項目以及在目前實務上面到底虛擬貨幣虛擬財產有沒有列入剩餘財產這個部分不曉得可不可以請中廷長來回答"},{"start":6834.6,"end":6850.706,"text":"像委員報告在我們實務家事法庭審判有關剩餘財產分配如果這種虛擬貨幣足以確認計算或請專家鑑定它的價值在實務一律都是列入可分配的財產"},{"start":6852.526,"end":6857.888,"text":"至於說在法律上要不要徵定怎麼徵定那我們很尊重主管機關的一個徵定可不可以請部長針對這個議題就是未來我們在夫妻揭露財產義務的這個財產在夫妻財產揭露義務之下我們要去"},{"start":6871.873,"end":6898.269,"text":"公開這個財產清澈是不是應該要放入虛擬資產你認為這部分是不是應該要加入因為這是一個新型態的一個財產的一個佈置嘛那我想這個我們沒有去排除虛擬資產因為虛擬資產還是財產包括我們那個財產申報都包括虛擬的資產是 但是就是說因為在這次法條上面沒有講得很清楚那這不就是這個在我們那個這個未來是不是可以在修正動力的時候立法說明來處理這個區塊"},{"start":6900.31,"end":6914.166,"text":"所以在立法說明裡面有加入這個虛擬財產嗎可以加入那個立法說明裡面如果說你們也同意這個方向當然本席也可以提案提到時候提一個修正動議可以把虛擬財產也放入到就是為了要公開的財產計算裡面因為財產包括實體財產跟虛擬的資產嘛那這邊我們在立法說明這邊把它"},{"start":6919.772,"end":6939.879,"text":"那再明確化 讓我們這更沒有爭議好 那最後一個議題我想就是針對所謂的分居這次其實司法院對於法務部所提案的有關於分居的規定也有不同的意見那目前行政院的法務部版本的徵定所謂的分居條款是五年之內要累計分居達三年才可以肅請離婚"},{"start":6943.92,"end":6948.665,"text":"那司法院的草案則是認為說要不分居就是連續不分居達三年而且在繼續狀態當中然後才可以肅請離婚那麼其實針對這個部分因為這也涉及到實務上的判斷的問題本席基本上是比較支持司法院的一個看法"},{"start":6960.839,"end":6987.184,"text":"那麼我也想了解就是說行政院的版本認為說這個分居五年之內累計分居達三年你們這個是到底是要去怎麼去定義怎麼去計算那個期間到底是指的是物理上的分開處還是說他主觀上面我沒有維持婚姻的義務我可能在同一個屋簷下但是是分房這樣就算是分居而且中間有時好時壞怎麼樣去累計那個三年的時間"},{"start":6994.127,"end":7010.576,"text":"其實我們在定義這五年內累積滿三年的時候我們是試圖建立一個客觀的標準這有參考德國因為德國他也是要有一個分開的推定前三年以上他就推定婚姻不能維持只是說我們更進一步因為我們是目標是要朝向破產主義讓他比較好證明"},{"start":7013.317,"end":7027.186,"text":"因為連續這個事情其實是比較難證明的反之它很容易被反正推翻所以我們用了比較對於婚姻裡面破綻維持上面比較能夠維護破綻主義精神的機制不過事實上你這樣講的話其實也涉及到舉證的問題可能到時候雙方當事人會有意見不一樣的地方接下來我想請教鍾廷長就是說在食物上面來講有沒有類似你們現在做的這個相關的食物的判決裡面"},{"start":7041.215,"end":7050.283,"text":"那麼有沒有類似這種對於累計計算分居的期間三年然後你就認為說這個其實已經構成報告委目前如果以這個破綻在舉證的時候通常這個律師雙方公訪難免有但是非常難舉證因為"},{"start":7063.214,"end":7078.15,"text":"有為子女而住在一起去可能是一個月兩個月那有為工作有為其他就像剛剛說的分房所以最終這種訴訟最後都很難認定所以產生這個訴訟上的困擾跟律師舉證的困難"},{"start":7080.472,"end":7106.245,"text":"是因為這也是本席認為說這其實在實務上可能會造成這個判斷上面的困難那這邊的話我本席也會有另外一個建議也可以請法務部去思考因為其實在歐美國家他們基本上有些會採取所謂登記制度分居的登記制度那法務部當時沒有去思考嘛譬如說像現在丹麥挪威等等這些國家他們會在網站上面先申請一個分居"},{"start":7108.126,"end":7129.223,"text":"有一個申請分居登記那分居期滿譬如說六個月或一年之後就可以正式的申請離婚那我覺得分居制度至少還有個客觀的這個第三人的一個公正的一個制度這樣的話未來在訴請裁判離婚的時候也比較有一個好的證明你們沒有往這方面去思考嗎這部分我請那個市長來好請市長 是"},{"start":7136.854,"end":7156.96,"text":"報告委員我們在這次密碼修正到底要不要放一個有關所謂的法定別居或法定分居制度其實在研究小組是有討論過不過因為這部分意見非常分散沒辦法形成共識那因為這次我們的修法主要還是迫切的要因應我們限盤制還有C的要求所以這部分我們之後會再通盤檢討如果實際有成熟我們會再繼續研議"},{"start":7159.701,"end":7184.876,"text":"好 那我也想請中廳長司法院這邊的意見如果說是未來採取分居登記制度會不會對於你們要審理相關的裁判離婚的案件會更有幫助是 報告委員有關這樣一個登記制度是在外國的立法例我們在研究跟蒐集上還有專家諮詢都有論述跟我們法務部的陳述我們是一樣的但是如果從實務面的研究"},{"start":7185.396,"end":7213.75,"text":"它是如果我們建立制度的健全是在訴訟上是反而也是非常更有更有明確的一個裁判基礎但是呢我國民請的關係因為你去登記以後然後後面的一個分居常常會造成又有舉證上的一個歧義跟困擾所以這有待這個整合來研究看怎麼我們沒有反對也會尊重主管機關的意見謝謝"},{"start":7214.81,"end":7236.783,"text":"因為這個本席基本上會認為說我們現在離婚結婚都採登記制度那麼如果說是分居未來能夠採登記制度的話可能也可以就是讓未來有相關的這個這個爭議案件的時候呢法院會更好處理這是本席的看法好的那今天本席質詢到這邊然後也謝謝主席寬容給我更多的時間來來詢答謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7242.557,"end":7244.778,"text":"那接下來我們有請范雲委員謝謝雅琳代主席有請鄭部長有請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":7263.436,"end":7278.074,"text":"部長好我們今天是關於民法離婚的相關修法很明確其實這幾年因為我來自婦女團體婦女團體的立場都是如果今天離婚真的已經無法避免的話"},{"start":7278.815,"end":7306.16,"text":"那如何在制度上盡量能夠讓雙方好聚好散然後保障未成年子女的權益還有第三點就是弱勢的配偶如何給他合理的保障所謂的弱勢從我們的角度來講就是是因為婚姻犧牲職涯發展然後跟經濟機會的一方所以今天我是蠻肯定那今天我們的召委排審"},{"start":7307,"end":7324.903,"text":"因為這個法案非常的重要剛剛莊瑞雄召委說要開公聽會我也非常的支持因為我覺得有更多專業的討論可能會讓我們這一次的修法能夠一次把它做好我自己從2021年開始就跟婦女團體一起努力"},{"start":7325.484,"end":7352.507,"text":"那希望聚焦在完善離婚後的經濟保障制度那這邊是從2021年就來我們司法委員會質詢那2025年我們還開記者會支持弱勢的母親的經濟自主希望離婚的法制能大改革那去年6月我也提出了我的版本那不知道法務部是不是記得本月初我的質詢有肯定院版有三項突破"},{"start":7353.513,"end":7382.306,"text":"第一個是不只是無過失能請領贍養費那第二個是不只是判決離婚能夠請領贍養費那第三個是正是因為婚姻生育家庭而減少的就業機會 指壓發展經濟能力那但是我上次也跟法務部提出我覺得你們的修法你們的版本有三個未盡之處就是第一個沒有移除原本的生活陷於困難的要件"},{"start":7383.266,"end":7407.479,"text":"第二個就是再婚就不能夠繼續請領贍養費那第三個是離婚財產的分配沒有納入職業年金那上次我有告訴你們為什麼會這樣主張那十年間根據婦女薪資基金會的研究被法院判決可以准贍養費的十年之間只有21件"},{"start":7409.674,"end":7430.581,"text":"那跟各個國家比起來都是非常非常低的所以這一次如何讓贍養費真的可以領到而且是合理的非常的重要那部長可以回應我說上次我又請你們回去針對這個要移除生活限於困難做研究那你們研究的情況如何了"},{"start":7431.716,"end":7447.045,"text":"各位報告有統計數字符合生活限於困難的要件雖然是少但還是多少過去法院判決符合生活限於困難"},{"start":7448.485,"end":7471.835,"text":"但是這個實務上是有判斷的一個標準有這個實例像那個最高反映有80年台上至1689這部分現有困難有這樣具體的表示意見表示說有他有實際上的一個個案那跟委員報告因為事實上我們當然是這一次的民法修復他有放寬就是說真的是是有需要就就業能力減損就業節約減少"},{"start":7473.336,"end":7502.681,"text":"但是我的重點是 上次已經質詢過你們還把生活限於困難放在那嗎我們檢討有檢視過我們認為還是有多少人判決上符合這個條件那你們沒有統計為什麼要放在那裡呢如果法院上就幾乎很少很少人能夠符合所謂的生活限於困難你放在那裡不是讓法官有機會就往那裡判了"},{"start":7503.551,"end":7532.188,"text":"這只要有舉證 如果說有離分新增這只是一種的一個類型而已那有多少這種例子因為生活困難的話跟我們就位機會減少跟就位能力減損那個是不同的一個範疇那個譬如說我是有就位能力跟就位能力但是因為我礙於譬如說我這是因為因為譬如說她是養未成年子女我沒辦法去沒有去就業"},{"start":7533.666,"end":7550.235,"text":"那沒辦法去就醫其實我的就醫能力沒有減損我的就醫界是沒有但是因為礙於我主觀的因素不是我客觀的一個我沒有這個機會所以這個線裡困難這部分我們認為還是要有當作一個善良會的一個請求的一個室友"},{"start":7550.795,"end":7572.248,"text":"鄭部長我們這裡就是要從你們的實證基礎來做討論因為法務部一直拿不出相關的統計我要講的事情就是你如果保留生活限於困難作為贍養費的勤領要件恐怕會讓這次的改革只有做一半"},{"start":7572.988,"end":7598.29,"text":"那我們是從婦女團體自己做的研究因為你們沒有研究那別人自己來幫你做研究就像我剛講的婦女新知基金會的研究十年間善養費請求判準只有21件全國只有21件喔然後85.6%的律師不建議請因為不符合生活限於困難所以已經有"},{"start":7599.071,"end":7617.437,"text":"快要九成的律師都不建議他的當事人請因為不符合那真的去請求的那個百分之十幾的律師在他們的案例中去請求的有百分之八十四點九被法官因為請求人並沒有陷於生活困難而駁回"},{"start":7619.097,"end":7636.036,"text":"所以10年內因為過去只能夠因為生活陷於困難所以10年內只有21件那你因為21件這件事情那非常多的相關的律師那他們其實會很擔心你留在那裡反而造成困擾"},{"start":7636.576,"end":7651.787,"text":"那這邊根據婦女薪資基金會的研究訪談律師說這個代號都是律師兩位律師都認為爭取贍養費會讓法院質疑當事人的撫養能力因為當事人若符合請求撫養費的生活陷於困難"},{"start":7652.984,"end":7676.935,"text":"那就不利於他爭取監護權因此在訴訟策略上一旦當事人提出申請監護權的意願的時候律師就會建議他放棄請求贍養費所以基本上你留了生活陷於困難那也對律師來講的話其實是非常不利的所以我們還是建議法務部回去好好的思考一下是不是"},{"start":7677.375,"end":7701.594,"text":"拿掉因離婚而生活陷於困難因為自證生活陷於困難也可能使得他有了贍養費就失去了監護權是當事人會陷於贍養費跟監護權二選一的這個兩難那這個是專業律師而且常常打離婚相關的律師們的建議那您如果不同意說拿出你們的數字"},{"start":7702.575,"end":7716.386,"text":"當然那個委員剛才有提到說21件當然是案件不多但是因為就是案件不多所以我們就有去討論就是說有離分時就位能力減損跟就位減少這都是一個選項這是或不是說"},{"start":7718.444,"end":7736.209,"text":"一定要再加上生活困難這是一個或或生活困難也用這個理由來申請那另外或那個如果說有就業能力部長我覺得這個東西就是要實證資料你們是法務部應該有能力做這個研究如果法官認為的生活限於困難已經是中低收入戶的話"},{"start":7737.61,"end":7758.729,"text":"當事人本來就可以尋蹤低收入戶因為10年來只有21件你們因為是生活陷於困難那你是不是拿出相關的數字再來論證它留在這因為法務部不是在處理我們是屬於民法的主管至於實務上的數據這次主管修法是你們嗎"},{"start":7762.913,"end":7769.601,"text":"那是我們是法規主管機關但是因為家事法院是司法院修法不應該拿出數據嗎判決的數據才知道這個法條留在那裡法院會怎麼判法官怎麼判這個應該沒有"},{"start":7777.89,"end":7800.805,"text":"我還是請你們研議因為你們的報告說還沒做好所以我今天就繼續來問這題好不好那聽起來就是還是沒有統計數字那我想就是婦女團體他自己做的研究然後這麼多的離婚相關的律師看到這個困境那是不是如果你堅持要放在那你要拿出數據說服我們大家好嗎"},{"start":7803.29,"end":7822.339,"text":"那還是請你拿出數據研議到底要不要移除生活限於困難好嗎因為我的時間不多了那您要答我先檢要回覆委員的槌尋第一個是上次委員槌尋只是事項我們已經回覆了可能還在辦公室可能要再確認那第二件事情是說"},{"start":7823.979,"end":7845.67,"text":"我們雖然沒有做因為我們手上沒有司法統計資料但是21件這個數據我們在報端也有看到不過我們當時有初步上網去看一下其實當初21件會這麼少人員其實很多是卡在所謂的判決這個要件以及所謂的無過失的要件倒不是生活陷於困難這個要件完全就排除掉了所以我們真的把兩大壁壘拿掉了因為離婚律師都是實戰經驗他們的當事人為什麼不建議他申請那第二點就是說為什麼離婚律師會這樣建議那是著眼於現行法"},{"start":7852.313,"end":7870.025,"text":"因為未來我們是其實會有所謂的A套餐跟B套餐你可以選擇要吃哪一個套餐A套餐就是說我是生活陷於困難類型B套餐就是我是所謂的勞動機會或是勞動能力減損的類型這兩個不會互斥那生活陷於困難如果是中低收入戶的話是不是本來就有中低收入戶的幫助重點不是在一個生活困難重點是因為我們現在的法律是採無過失的一個主義如果說採破綻主義的話我想生活困難這部分的那個案例會用這個理由"},{"start":7881.092,"end":7900.331,"text":"是不同的部分那律師還有訪談律師的婦女團體的研究他看到的是實質的部分好嗎那我想如果你要保留在那裡就要拿出數據來說服好不好這部分我們再來講好我們再仔細對話那支持那個昭偉說辦公廳會能夠一次修到好謝謝"},{"start":7903.223,"end":7927.996,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員的詢問你看我擺這個比較專業性的來了這大家Kids都跑出來 專業的都跑出來而且這個面向真的是很多啦這個整個離婚制度啊這個確實是各個面向裡面來看的話該要去保障的地方或者要去突破的地方確實該及時管理接下來我們請鄭正前"},{"start":7932.658,"end":7940.426,"text":"鄭正前 鄭正成委員不在林佩祥 林佩祥 林佩祥委員不在接下來請最專業的徐以貞委員謝謝最專業的主席喔我們請法務部政部長請政部長"},{"start":7959.105,"end":7985.828,"text":"委員好部長好 今天就是要本期要跟您探討就是有關112年憲判制第四號的判決喔它是規定兩年內必須要修法現在已經超過了修法的時間喔那我看行政院跟司法院都有各提了版本喔來去這個解釋說分居期間到底要怎麼計算那行政院版當然寫的是五年內累積分居達三年"},{"start":7986.548,"end":8005.674,"text":"那司法院主當然是不同居已達三年且在繼續的狀態中那剛剛我想也很多委員請教您啊就是說到底要怎麼去計算尤其是目前行政院版的就是五年內累積分居已經達三年因為民法根本沒有對分居下明確的定義"},{"start":8006.514,"end":8027.908,"text":"除了客觀上的不同居之外 還要看主觀的意識是不是因為工作 或者是照顧子女然後比如說分居 但是呢分房 也許同居但分房那也有因為子女分開 有各項的爭議那請問一下 如果連分居在民法上都沒有明確的定義連分居都講不清楚的話 要怎麼計算分居的時間呢"},{"start":8029.248,"end":8056.21,"text":"當然我們現在分區的制度這個我們在民法上沒有很明確的一個規定但是我們在這個立法的一個說明就是1052條的分區事項我們有做一個說明就分區是指夫妻不繼續共同生活的一個定義當然這部分我想在個案上的話在一個計算上我想如果正當理由而是做一個分區當然不會去記錄嘛"},{"start":8057.791,"end":8075.189,"text":"那如果說是不願意附和的任期來持續的話那當然就是是屬於一個分居的一個入室的一個期間的計算那這部分我想還要帶一個我們這部分當然是跟司法院的我想司法院為什麼"},{"start":8076.89,"end":8099.107,"text":"對 為什麼他們會特別提 就是舉證上真的有困難尤其是對於不想離婚的那一方的話他可能就不會配合啊那你在分居的定義到底是什麼也說不清楚所以司法院他也舉了一個例子啊 就是說如果丈夫1月1號上午9點離家1月15號晚間9點離家這到底算14天 還是14.5天 還是15天"},{"start":8102.369,"end":8113.858,"text":"這個是司法院提的例子也就是說只要是法律適用的時候一定會碰到相關的問題那遇到這樣的問題應該要怎麼處理報告委員就這部分因為我們累積制確實是我們在營業小組會議的時候委員們的結論"},{"start":8123.886,"end":8140.55,"text":"所以跟德國是不太一樣的不過在計算所謂哪一天算是完整的一日的狀況底下其實在實務上雖然沒有完全類同的狀況但是比如說像在公財案件裡面常常會有所謂的工作日的計算那天算不算是一個工作日的計算那請問這個計算方式適用在這邊嗎"},{"start":8145.322,"end":8163.058,"text":"這部分我們會委託於實務的發展看實務者審理的彈性去發展出一個合理的計算的方式就跟工作室的累積計算所以為什麼司法院會提這樣就是說確實他們在舉證上的困難然後造成他們在審查上一定有相當的一個困難度嗎所以我認為就是在這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":8164.239,"end":8180.841,"text":"當然我個人是比較主張就是司法院的這個版本就是不同居已達三年的這個版本因為比較清楚也比較能夠操作也比較符合這個審判的這個實務那請問一下部長你覺得司法院的說法對不對你接不接受司法院的說法"},{"start":8181.321,"end":8206.85,"text":"我們還是以我們支持那個院版因為我們院版有經過了整個專家學者機關代表的充分的一個討論那結出來的一個意見那剛剛講的這個剛剛講的這些問題專家學者有提出嗎這部分有它的一個實務上的一個基礎一個實際案例的一個基礎那我想這部分當然大家可以看起來目前是沒有共識嗎是沒有共識所以我們才會所以我們那個"},{"start":8209.852,"end":8223.852,"text":"這個才會有...所以那個委...趙委員說要辦公聽會大概廣納各位的社會的...我想這看起來可能是一個小問題可是事實上會影響的程度是很大的所以我覺得可能也要我們大家再多徵詢相關的意見"},{"start":8225.314,"end":8251.627,"text":"然後另外本期要再請教您就是最近因為媒體報導就是我們的國安諮詢委員林志傑女士有意找法務部調派檢察官協助她那而且就是引起檢方的反彈那當然我知道法務部昨天也這個大動作的出了一個這個新聞稿來駁斥這樣的一個說法那我想目前我們看到報導裡面寫的是桃園地檢署的主任檢察官馬洪華已經內定擔任"},{"start":8255.67,"end":8275.71,"text":"這個職務那檢察官的人事審議委員會也要在明天就會開會討論所以這件事情到底是不是事實這個人未來會辦理什麼業務在哪裡上班聽誰的指揮謝謝委員我們那個調辦室都是要經過的一個公告的一個程序依照那個行政院的"},{"start":8276.471,"end":8296.853,"text":"限制所屬公務人員戒掉及兼職的要點來辦理的那這個上班的地點是在檢察室那我是不是請副市長來回答上班地點還是一樣在法務部在檢察室不會去國安會是這樣嗎我們調辦事就是因為因為他有負責的專責譬如說有打造有毒品的副用的"},{"start":8297.654,"end":8313.634,"text":"所以他如果負責國安他就有可能去國安會嗎他一定會跟國安的單位包括國安會陸委會經濟部等有國安的安全的一個體系所以他是負責國安相關的他負責國安的這一部分所以有可能到國安會"},{"start":8314.575,"end":8329.545,"text":"當然我一定會去開會啊當然我不是指開會喔我是說他是借調當然因為根據你們的要不然你們的新聞稿引用的是行政院限制所屬公務人員借調及戒指要點第二點嘛那既然是同一個單位為什麼要借調"},{"start":8330.889,"end":8350.803,"text":"這個因為他是檢察官所以要來辦理行政事務的當然要借調這個是依照那個我們那個借調的堅持要點來辦理的那我想這個因為這個我們那個法制在我們那個法制作業是高度的專業我想在各個基金包括司法院他們都有借調法官來辦理這些法制作業或者一些的司法的擬定嘛"},{"start":8351.724,"end":8369.16,"text":"部長的意思就是說他不會到國安會他不是在那上班啊上班但是業務一定會有那會不會到國安會裡去負責這個相關國安的業務代表法務部借調過去呢不會啊這個就是在法務部借調就是在借調在法務部上班啊"},{"start":8369.38,"end":8387.537,"text":"因為其實很多 我想很多 為什麼檢方會反彈就覺得說我們基層人力這麼短缺嘛那如果說因為這部分因為明天啦 說真的明天就會知道了嘛因為明天你們就要開會嘛那是不是馬洪華主任檢察官是不是就是內定的是不是就是真的是他明天就會知道答案嘛明天就會知道說到底是不是內定啊那我想這個委員他們就會去做一個審議"},{"start":8396.165,"end":8424.623,"text":"空穴未必来风为什么会引起这么大的反弹我觉得不能用传闻来当然不能用传闻所以我就说其实这个事情很快明天就会知道答案但我们希望说基层的检察官其实人力已经很缺乏了所以真的需要我们这个华务部的人不是只有检察官数据官包括监守的管理人我们都非常支持华务部的人力我们要打仗还要办毒品所以说"},{"start":8424.963,"end":8441.142,"text":"可能這個部分就不適合再借調出去尤其是蔡總裁部長我覺得您最近也很辛苦您的政策通通都被這個借走了包括先是徐錫祥政策去擔任最高檢察署的主任檢察官然後準備要接檢察總長"},{"start":8443.004,"end":8464.805,"text":"那接下來呢 你的另一個政次 這個黃士傑 他又要去選桃園市長現在呢 連黃謀信政次 都要去擔任中選會的主委所以 像這個部分我覺得 部長您真的很辛苦耶因為 等於說您的政次 都這樣子那看起來好像感覺是 這個 呃 保護部的政次是一個升官的跳板喔"},{"start":8465.245,"end":8471.949,"text":"只要到來擔任政策的話幾乎都有這樣子的一個過水的一個狀態那雖然過水啦那我很尊重他們職業規劃嘛那這部分謝謝委員關心對那像這樣的話政策其實它一直流動那對於您的這個法務部的業務會有什麼影響呢"},{"start":8484.656,"end":8511.127,"text":"我想這部分我們還是業務很努力去做一個推動七成人力也不足那現在連高層都這樣子一個狀況謝謝委員關心所以我其實覺得部長真的很辛苦你自己可能還得要見證詞的業務所以有些要去考察我沒辦法去參加這個也請委員來請教這是兩回事喔部長這是兩回事喔因為剛剛翁小林委員講的是說您如果"},{"start":8511.987,"end":8523.793,"text":"之前就講的話那當然站在他的立場的話他也會評估狀況可是您是當天前一天的下午五點才通知那所以說當然他不知道所以部長我想要請教您的就是說像這個部分的話我們現在其實剛剛您也講的不管是打雜啦 茶會啦大家都非常的"},{"start":8534.138,"end":8556.466,"text":"非常地辛苦嘛那現在我就說你這個一下子這個政策走一下子那個政策走那接下來的話對於我們相關的工作在法務部的這個部分你們準備怎麼樣來去去做好這個相關的工作呢我想我們就是不會就是因為次長的因為的去做其他的一個任務的一個"},{"start":8556.886,"end":8570.954,"text":"一個職務的調整或者是所以表示這個政策可能不是那麼重要那個不是這樣的我們是努力來推動那也請委員多支持我們一定支持但是呢還是請部長針對這個部分我是覺得還是我們政治還是要以穩定為主那部長的話因為最近實在是太頻繁了啦"},{"start":8580.499,"end":8590.563,"text":"你看這個黃士傑的這個缺應該還沒補吧那現在黃謀信證詞又要去這個當中選會的委員所以部長是希望我們同意黃謀信證詞擔任中選會委員嗎所以你們又少一個證詞囉他是一個兼任嘛是兼任喔兼任兼任所以他還是繼續擔任這個法務部的證詞那他這樣子會不會也有一些時間要去當中選會的委員他那個是兼任我想有開會他都一定會去嘛"},{"start":8610.53,"end":8631.725,"text":"那就是相關的業務他可能就必須要分一些時間去做這樣子的一個調整謝謝委員體諒委員這個法務部很辛苦還是請部長這個部分我當然知道您也能難處但是我們還是覺得這個如果委員知道我的難處那這部分就委員多多支持法務部業務的推動我一定支持法務部的業務但是還是請部長針對這個部分其實還是要跟上面反映一下謝謝"},{"start":8635.592,"end":8659.965,"text":"好 謝謝許宇珍委員 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在許宗信 許宗信 許宗信委員沒在羅明財 羅明財 羅明財不在賴士寶 賴士寶 賴士寶委員不在 我看這裡都不會來了"},{"start":8661.966,"end":8685,"text":"那所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了 詢答也結束了那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關儘速提交個別委員跟本會那委員林沛翔 蔡其昌 沈發慧 黃婕所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報 並請相關機關以書面來做答覆"},{"start":8691.824,"end":8709.76,"text":"那我想今天的會議我們就要進行到這個地方今天也非常謝謝法務部跟司法院今天都提供很專業的這一些寶貴的一個意見但是因為我們其實今天也看到司法院跟法務部這個地方意見其實"},{"start":8711.562,"end":8730.721,"text":"不一樣那不是壞事 對制度的看法會有所不同那我相信整個離婚制度的一個改進這個不是只是說保障以現在來看的話其實這個制度來看就是大家看新的方向就認為說原來這樣的一個制度"},{"start":8731.421,"end":8748.936,"text":"這個都不是在保障弱勢幾乎都是在測試你有多慘這個條文上寫的權利好像都可以保障看得到可是實行下來很多地方確實要必須要重新再修訂的一個地方很多憲判制這個大法官會議"},{"start":8750.377,"end":8766.112,"text":"的憲法法庭做這樣的一個判決那確實立法院這個地方我們必須要盡速把這個制度來做一個補齊這個離婚以後人要怎麼活我相信這個才是重點不管是資訊現在看到的不對稱舉證的困難或者贍養費門款的一個過高這個"},{"start":8770.475,"end":8782.705,"text":"我在近期之內我就要來召開一個公聽會因為今天你們來你們就很強勢你們說這個專業你們就整天在那邊說到嚇嚇叫你們要不要找個老闆來給你看這是好事讓專業來做一個對話本次會議我們進行到這個地方議程首列討論事項兩岸的均作如下決議就另定期來繼續審查現在我們散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}