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現在進行法案審查並宣讀討論事項條文修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2305.509,"end":2316.018,"text":"公職人員選舉報免法第26條委員林依靜等22人提案第三款前段修正為成分第97條第一項第二項第三項第98條第99條第一項第二項第100條第一項第二項第三項第101條第一項第二項第6項第7項第102條第一項第二項第103條其餘同線型條文委員陳玉珍等17人提案第9款後段刪除與緩刑期間並增訂但書"},{"start":2331.952,"end":2346.56,"text":"但受緩刑宣告者不在此限其與同現行條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第九款後段刪除與緩刑期間並增訂但書但受緩刑宣告或異形處分者不在此限其與同現行條文委員林淑芬等二十三人提案第九款後段刪除"},{"start":2347.26,"end":2374.609,"text":"與緩刑期間或行刑權因離於時效消滅並增訂但書但受緩刑宣告者不在此縣其餘同縣刑條文委員翁曉琳等16人提案第5款新增或詐欺犯罪違害防治條例第9款同委員林淑芬等23人提案其餘同縣刑條文修正動議1撤回修正動議2民眾黨黨團提案第9款但書修正為但受緩刑或異形處分宣告者不在此縣"},{"start":2376.147,"end":2400.002,"text":"其餘同源提案提案人徐中信等人第三款委員林淑芬等23人提案第六款新增或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第九款第九款後段修正為尚未執行執行未必或行刑權應離於時效而消滅其餘同源提案提案人徐中信等人"},{"start":2404.132,"end":2413.241,"text":"總統、副總統選舉罷免法第26條委員林益錦等20人提案第三款前段修正委陳範第84條第一項第二項第三項第85條第86條第一項第二項第87條第一項第二項第88條第89條第一項第二項第6項第7項其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2422.29,"end":2444.063,"text":"委員翁曉琳等16人提案第五款新增或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第九款後段刪除與緩刑期間或行刑券因離於時效消滅新增但書但受緩刑宣告則不在此限其與同現行條文宣讀完畢現在進行公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案及總統副總統選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案主條會協商"},{"start":2465.776,"end":2467.802,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":2508.396,"end":2518.772,"text":"我們現在針對公職人員選舉辦理法第26條條文修正草案進行討論有沒有委員要先提出說明意見的"},{"start":2530.008,"end":2553.954,"text":"來 主席 部長 主委 還有各位同仁謝謝各位給我這個機會那今天本黨對26條的修正案提出在第9款附了一個但書本黨為什麼會附這個但書因為我們公職選舉罷免法 各位都是專家它基本上限制參選是一個褚獨公權"},{"start":2555.154,"end":2574.187,"text":"限制參選是一個褚頭公權而我們26條已經有第15款已經有褚頭公權不得參選還沒復選就不得參選那表示說呢 這個我們對於被褚頭公權者已經不讓他參選那現在我們對這個輕罪"},{"start":2579.62,"end":2606.045,"text":"輕罪部分我們在反刑上反刑上通常反刑時間會比較長他跟褚德公權的期間也不見得一致所以反刑其實他的目的是要來看犯罪人他罪確定以後我們是一個罪行法定主義的國家罪已經確定但是法官判他反刑就是表示要讓他"},{"start":2607.452,"end":2629.182,"text":"犯罪以後的態度是否已經變更不必動用國家的刑法權所以給他反刑處分這個反刑處分的期間可能會長於他所被判的刑來觀察他是否已經犯罪後的態度而我們一個犯罪者"},{"start":2630.282,"end":2655.294,"text":"在哪一個行為最容易看出他的犯罪態度是否已經改過千善就是讓他回復原來那種類型的工作也就是他如果是公職有貪賭的話那就讓他回去參選那個公職最能夠觀察出他能夠有沒有改過千善所以我們在反省期間"},{"start":2657.745,"end":2678.356,"text":"不允許他參選這個其實是剝奪人民的參政權剝奪人民的參政權所以我們不應該在反省期間仍然不允許他參選也就是說你應該讓他參選讓他回復他以前類似的工作更能觀察出他是否"},{"start":2678.866,"end":2689.357,"text":"事後已經態度改過千善這樣反而是比較好的所以我們現行的條文沒有這個但書所以台灣民眾黨加入一個"},{"start":2690.782,"end":2710.716,"text":"反刑宣告不在此限 受反刑宣告不在此限那另外呢 異刑處分這個異刑處分有些同仁把他理解為他是異科華軍那其實不然啦因為異刑處分 那個異就是改變那刑可能用勞動服務"},{"start":2711.897,"end":2735.919,"text":"等其他的行為來處罰他那叫異刑處分那會用異刑處分表示刑不必要我們要用其他的行為來看他的犯罪或態度或是他對社會已經是否已經有改變他的行為舉止所以本黨認為受反刑宣告或是受異刑處分者一樣"},{"start":2737.113,"end":2762.106,"text":"不再此現而我們反行是一個宣告那疫情處分後面不必再加一個宣告因為處分就已經有宣告的性質那個疫情處分它不是行政處分它是司法所為的處分所以它已經是一個國家所做的一個公權力行為所以反行宣告"},{"start":2763.942,"end":2782.115,"text":"異形處分兩個是一樣的所以本黨才會提出這樣一個但書的修正案反形處分還有異形沒有比反形現在就是說"},{"start":2788.343,"end":2808.014,"text":"這個異刑處分跟反刑之間沒有輕重的問題它一個是本刑沒有改但是執行期間拖長來看他的犯罪或態度而我們異刑處分是刑已經拿掉了我們用其他的處罰"},{"start":2809.983,"end":2839.172,"text":"勞動服務來加以讓他改過千善彌補以前的罪責所以本黨才會把反刑宣告跟疫情處分一起納為這個但書那這樣修正以後如果有不適合參選公職人員的那就是處得公權也就是法官要判他處得公權幾年嘛那你沒有給他判處得公權"},{"start":2840.773,"end":2867.453,"text":"的這樣一個處罰結果卻在反行期間跟商會執行行執行未完畢把它放在一起那這樣其實是不對的因為反行期間時長它的期間會比較久一點那這樣會剝奪人民的參政權所以本黨才會提出這樣一個修正意見以上給各位做一個參考 謝謝好 我們請黃介委員發言"},{"start":2869.847,"end":2894.49,"text":"好 下一位蘇強惠委員好 那今天這個26條其實就是在講說這個環形宣告的問題那我是覺得說我們的底線當然大家台灣社會都覺得說反貪排黑反毒洗錢這個守護國安這些都是我們共同的底線所以大家有共同的這個高度的這個道德價值道德期待是一定的"},{"start":2894.87,"end":2918.725,"text":"但是因為之前修的這個法確實看起來有比例原則的問題有點輕重失衡所以今天針對這個比例原則的調整我是認為大家可以討論是不是應該更符合原本它的法律上該有的比例原則這樣子也是不會說到時候再如果有人去釋憲或者是違背了憲法原本的精神好 謝謝"},{"start":2922.923,"end":2943.32,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員 下一位我們請蘇喬威委員發言然後下一位這是我們王煌威委員好 謝謝 那我就承續著 接續著黃婕委員這邊的說法我們繼續討論一下就是那既然我們今天要討論的是這個候選人的資格那剛剛大家有說這個反獨反黑那甚至是國安問題大家都覺得這是非常嚴重的狀況"},{"start":2944.161,"end":2973.505,"text":"那所以應該作為消極資格也就是不能成為候選人但我想以現在的社會氛圍來講大家對於詐欺犯罪其實是也是深惡痛絕這樣的狀況所以我想我們這個大家民進黨團這邊大家一致決議認為應該是把這個在第六項裡面或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例把它補入所以等於是我們再加上這樣的一個要件也成為候選人的消極資格以上"},{"start":2975.235,"end":2995.593,"text":"這一點翁曉琳委員也有提她的版本那我想我們等一下也會照第六款去討論那我們先把第九款確認下來因為第九款算是大家可能會討論比較多的然後如果怎麼再回推到第六以及我們林益菁委員的提案好那我們請王紅薇委員發言那下一位請吳啟明委員謝謝"},{"start":2997.421,"end":3011.947,"text":"好謝謝主席還有我們各位委員以及今天參與的我們各位行政官員那我們今天所討論的就是呢我們不應該去過分限縮就是人民的一個參政權被選舉權那我想"},{"start":3015.529,"end":3030.861,"text":"在我們第26條第9款這一個部分也就是受緩刑宣告的不在此限我想現在大家看起來各黨派都比較有共識比較有共識那我覺得這是一個往比較合理的方向那麼不要去因為我們當時的修法"},{"start":3038.407,"end":3043.108,"text":"其實當時修法把這個相關的比如說有犯貪污罪啦國安法啦或者組織犯罪、毒品防治、洗錢什麼等等之類那這個部分當然無庸置疑就是不得參選但是呢像在這些這個比較嚴重的罪行之外然後被判緩刑也不得參選的部分我想"},{"start":3064.634,"end":3081.391,"text":"今天大家都有共識是應該把它做一個修正那另外在這邊表達就是因為剛才我們徐中信委員也歡迎他恭喜他加入我們立法院的行列那剛才徐中信委員也提出民眾黨團的一個修正動議"},{"start":3085.735,"end":3104.102,"text":"那這個修正動議就是把它除了受緩刑宣告還有異形處分宣告的也不在此限那因為不管是緩刑或異形這個處分其實都是比較輕微的罪我想這兩者其實是類似的"},{"start":3104.822,"end":3106.524,"text":"所以我們在這邊我們同意民眾黨團所提出來的修正動議來做以上報告我想在第26條第9塊這個部分我們先做以上的表達"},{"start":3124.315,"end":3144.162,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員那我們請吳啟明委員發言好 下一位請王美惠委員好 各位針對26條的修正條文本席這邊是有一個建議我認為要是說在毒品還是槍炮還是有國安的問題當然這種的不行"},{"start":3144.702,"end":3162.147,"text":"那我認為是微型的話也不要去抹殺那個參選人的資格這是本席比較支持啦 比較支持今天我們的修改認為微型的我們還是要給他們有一個機會來參選不要剝奪他們的潛力這是本席的提出 謝謝"},{"start":3172.13,"end":3184.663,"text":"好,謝謝,我們請王美惠委員發言,下一位林淑芬主席,在這裡我的意見,我是覺得說每一個選舉都有每一個的權利,但是他犯罪之後你說他每一項都可以選,每一項都可以選,這樣他做犯事要怎麼讓他有一個糾紛"},{"start":3194.372,"end":3213.886,"text":"但是在這個規定的當中,我們就是覺得說跟犯那麼大罪的、跟犯小罪的人都一樣的處罰,這樣也不對尤其在國安當中,在這幾天17日的規定當中,我相信我們的北市"},{"start":3215.168,"end":3222.178,"text":"對金融行為上的討厭和覺得越來越嚴重我們如果沒有一個嚴重的出發和選舉的牽制說實在,我們受這個罰說實在,不像大家這麼多人"},{"start":3231.724,"end":3241.647,"text":"在這裏討論 我覺得要落實的時候 我們要認為為主的讓他覺得不能參選的時候對中華民國的台灣來說的事實 這樣就失去他的公平的正義以上"},{"start":3255.154,"end":3278.326,"text":"好 謝謝 請林淑芬委員發言好 各位我再講一次就是說憲法第十七條它本來規定人民有選舉罷免創制複決的權利但憲法二十三條也有規定就是說得以法律限制參政權如果符合增進公共利益所必要者"},{"start":3278.626,"end":3294.204,"text":"或者是維持社會秩序或是避免緊急危難或者是防止妨礙他人自由等等其實是得以法律限制他的參政權的但是呢要增進公共利益所必要者但是也要符合比例原則這個是"},{"start":3295.645,"end":3310.479,"text":"不用再多說的那我們今天在這裡在選罷法裡面我們就是要選出哪些人已經不適合受人民所托付所以我們前面第一款到第六款這個消極資格的列舉的這種罪"},{"start":3312.801,"end":3319.528,"text":"這種所犯的這一些不論是對國家的忠誠的義務有關或者是公務員的連結貪毒的問題有關的或者是大家都認為黑金槍毒這種特定的重罪等等都不適合受人民所托付"},{"start":3332.601,"end":3355.855,"text":"那我也同意說大家可能要把這個詐騙的這一種也放進來或許大家也會覺得說你在社會上都會詐騙人民了那這種會詐騙的人到立法院或者到當行政首長或當地方議員可能都不適合受人民所託付這一種叫劣舉出來的大家都覺得說應該是要重演處分"},{"start":3360.237,"end":3388.94,"text":"受緩刑宣告都不可以這個在第七款都有講了就是我們列舉的這一些絕對不適合托付的他是連第七款就已經明定連受緩刑宣告都不可以那我們只修第九款第九款在講什麼他不是特定重罪的我們列舉的那一些他是全國所有的刑事處分的也不是重罪的"},{"start":3390.12,"end":3403.948,"text":"不問任何犯罪僅因為尚未執行或者是執行未必然後在緩刑期間一律全部剝奪他的這個參政權那第九款裡面為什麼要修正絕對不是說"},{"start":3406.349,"end":3423.308,"text":"為什麼三個黨或者是大家都有這個共識的原因是因為第九款的法條條文它失去了輕重的這個比 輕重原則啦它也不適合比例原則但也輕重失衡 為什麼"},{"start":3424.434,"end":3449.796,"text":"同一種罪 我們都知道罪職最重就是要去關上當抓去關的罪職是最重的再來 我覺得還可以啦就你繳了錢 受了處分也警告你了這種是次之嘛那還有一種可能就是說 疫情處分的工雖然不用抓去關 為什麼不用抓去關法官就覺得說 那你還是要處分要抓去勞動服務等等 要疫情處分"},{"start":3452.398,"end":3472.124,"text":"那最輕最直最輕的就是說你這個留下查看你就是這三年這兩年通通都不要再犯任何的錯的話我認為你這個就可以抵過了所以也沒有罰錢也沒有抓去關就是緩刑所以從最直來看就是緩刑那再從行為上來看其實很多狀況有可能會涉及到緩刑不能參選譬如說你發生車禍"},{"start":3480.606,"end":3489.692,"text":"那個發生車禍非你所故意嘛很多都是顧過失可是到最後就判一顆罰金的馬上繳完了馬上就可以參選可是判的比一顆罰金還要輕的還刑給你還刑一年你完全都不能參選"},{"start":3501.837,"end":3504.338,"text":"同一種罪行喔不論是你還有什麼你討厭的可能是毀謗罪判你一顆罰金的可以選那判你緩刑的不能選所以這個就輕重失衡所以在這裡裡面我們才會覺得說不符合比例原則你在這種狀況裡面最輕的可以剝奪他的參政權判重的卻允許他參選"},{"start":3530.874,"end":3547.566,"text":"所以這是不符合邏輯的嘛 這法律條文這樣判太離譜了嘛所以我們認為說 事實上大家可以共識不是為誰量身定制啦大家理性的來討論說 這樣你就全國所有的這種狀況你就一律都剝奪他的參政權"},{"start":3556.012,"end":3566.62,"text":"這樣子是適當的嗎所以我們才想說請大家支持我們先請張宏祿委員發言然後下面請李柏惟教委"},{"start":3570.49,"end":3593.823,"text":"剛聽了所有委員講其實大家基本上方向都差不多如果要去舉犯罪的形態太多了無法一一列舉我是不是建議如果大家方向都一致我們是不是就進入實質的內容我們看要怎麼處理我覺得這樣子比較快"},{"start":3599.465,"end":3618.223,"text":"那我就講一下 因為現在是在這個選罷法26條那剛剛林淑芬委員還有多委員 包含今天我們的新委員徐委員也解釋得非常清楚那就是有沒有符合這個比例原則以及輕重罪失衡的問題這是選罷法26條"},{"start":3620.985,"end":3644.088,"text":"那大家方向一致的話我也贊同張宏祿委員剛剛講的我們可以直接實質的來討論那第二個我也這邊也來對我們這邊也提出一個修正動議針對總統副總統選舉的部分後面的這一個要不要把詐欺犯罪放進來那我們有提出一個修正動議那等一下一起來討論謝謝"},{"start":3646.39,"end":3668.148,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一個部分會討論到那就張正榮委員好 謝謝大家剛剛各位委員都講得非常清楚針對選罷法第26條到底是誰會不能參選當候選人其實一到六款的就是大家剛剛所稱的算是重罪而且是民眾所所厭惡的不管是國安 貪污 賄選"},{"start":3669.969,"end":3689.116,"text":"組織犯罪、槍炮獨立、毒品等等重大犯罪我們就是就算是緩刑也不能參選所以剛剛很多委員都提到比例原則那如果未來是輕罪不是以上六種的話現在的法令是說還是不能參選是不是有違反比例原則我相信各位委員都講得非常清楚"},{"start":3689.756,"end":3715.416,"text":"那今天也非常開心我們民眾黨許中信委員有提出一個修正動議那剛剛王洪瑞議員已經說本黨就是也支持就是說他們的修正動議所以我需要說就進行實質的討論以上謝謝好謝謝那我想在文字的部分其實在緩刑的部分大家文字上各個版本應該都差不多了文字上大概都寫說斷售緩刑第九款的部分"},{"start":3716.377,"end":3732.236,"text":"第26條的第9款最後面大家無論是原本的版本還是修正動議都是但受緩刑宣告者不在此限我想這樣子的文字大家等一下可能應該都沒有"},{"start":3734.078,"end":3749.07,"text":"但是就是我現在要提就是民眾黨的版本就是他們多了一個或疫情處分那我先跟中選會先確認一下目前疫情處分是可以參選的嗎"},{"start":3752.989,"end":3767.955,"text":"中選會我們看一下修正動議第二版因為疫情的部分它還是有型的存在跟緩刑不一樣"},{"start":3770.461,"end":3796.888,"text":"那現在因為大家在提這個修法的部分對中選會來講就是你只要明確的話資格審查沒有問題的話那對中選會我沒有意見因為這個是主管機關這個內政部跟我們大院修法權這個我們都尊重那我們再請教內政部意見看是尊重委員會還是有內政部有意見發表"},{"start":3798.516,"end":3826.422,"text":"好 我們請劉思芳部長好 家瑋剛剛各位委員所討論的26條大概有兩個部分就是我們在4月8號詢答的時候內政部有表達立場就是說不希望要希望維持本部的書面報告的立場那今天三黨的委員都有提到受緩刑宣告不得參選限制的部分那個這樣子第一個就是說因為那個所謂緩刑的部分大概也提到各種不同的罪行"},{"start":3827.162,"end":3852.552,"text":"那因為修正的內容涉及到刑事處罰跟司法的實務我是建議說是不是司法院跟法務部可以提供他們的意見提供給我們參考這是一個因為在我們所了解的剛剛很多委員提到說的比例原則那比例原則是不是也要需要按照緩刑期間的長短來做區分因為緩刑也有三年的也只有六個月等等的這個要不要再做考量那這個都是司法的實務上的考量"},{"start":3853.212,"end":3868.882,"text":"這是一個那剛剛民眾黨團有提到說受疫情處分的這個部分那受疫情處分不得參選的限制呢因為疫情處分呢譬如說是一顆罰金或者是一幅社會勞動它是有其圖形執行方式的替代手段"},{"start":3869.742,"end":3890.078,"text":"如果沒有執行完畢的話應該仍然視為是有期徒刑執行未必如果把他直接列入辦書而且讓他可以登記為候選人的話是有待商榷同樣的道理就是說因為第九款的部分大概所涉的部分都是不是原來第一款到第八款的重罪"},{"start":3894.461,"end":3916.974,"text":"我們現在是討論第九款所以是不是可以再請教一下法務部或者是說司法院他們對於這個所謂的實務上的見解是不是在執行上面沒有太大的困擾那我們原則上還是會以這個立法委員通過的這個意見為主不過我們還是希望維持原來本部書面報告的立場 謝謝"},{"start":3918.089,"end":3930.747,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長在請司法院跟法務部提供一天之前我跟鍾雪茗去問一下因為剛剛劉部長提到義科罰金這件事情現在的義科罰金是可以參選的嗎"},{"start":3933.805,"end":3948.174,"text":"要繳完要繳完才可以繳完可以還沒繳不行我們醫科罰金現在是這樣我對這個疫情的處分或是使用性權離時效益消滅這個其實有一個我們要考慮一下它裡面樣態有很多"},{"start":3964.525,"end":3989.433,"text":"我們可能大家覺得扶勞役可能就是不用進去監獄裡面可能都在外面大家可能這樣想但其實有一種是要進去在裡面但他是在裡面工作扶勞役的如果我們沒有把它界定的很清楚這一種的如果可以選他人在裡面他怎麼出來選"},{"start":3993.767,"end":3999.293,"text":"選上還要進去管這個可能大家要再思考,因為那個我說樣態太多了"},{"start":4002.266,"end":4025.497,"text":"我再補充一下疫情服務為什麼我個人不予支持的原因是因為他還是處分我們講的緩刑就是說你留下查看沒有給你任何處分可是疫情處分他還是有罪的他會留下前科的緩刑之後為什麼前科不會留著那是因為不一樣罪質不一樣的疫情處分包含三種"},{"start":4027.258,"end":4044.01,"text":"預科罰金 這個現行的法律 預科罰金只要繳完就可以了它是疫情處分裡面的最輕微的 它已經可以繳錢就不用關了再來是預扶社會勞動 出來外面做社扶社會勞動的但還有一種是在監獄裡面關的時候 預扶勞役的"},{"start":4049.073,"end":4065.765,"text":"所以疫情處分他還是判刑但只是把你的刑變成繳錢變成社會勞動變成在監獄裡面扶牢役所以我一直講說疫情處分的罪值都比緩刑還要重"},{"start":4066.425,"end":4090.866,"text":"那疫情處分裡面的最輕的就是說一顆罰金的我們都已經放掉了現行的法律不是修法是本來他繳完錢就可以參選了所以我們的意思是說可以請法務部和司法院表示意見我個人是覺得說要繼續講下去的話社會恐怕也要注意社會上的觀感"},{"start":4093.37,"end":4100.572,"text":"我們上次詢問的時候是4月8號然後4月8號中選會的報告裡面其實針對緩刑是覺得大家可以討論但是針對疫情處分,主委你看一下你們是反對喔?上一次是反對喔?"},{"start":4119.023,"end":4129.893,"text":"來 秀園請來 主席 還有各位同仁齁這個有關於反刑 宣告跟一刑處分誰輕誰重這個沒有輕重的問題沒有輕重的問題"},{"start":4134.102,"end":4159.291,"text":"那這個我們一顆滑金是一種異形處分那一顆滑金我們現在講完就可以參選嘛那我們現在只是把它的原則納入例外也就是說除了大家有共識的受反省宣告的我們是原則上要把它排除的嘛大家沒有意見現在有意見的是處分委員跟我之間的差異在於異形處分"},{"start":4160.231,"end":4172.619,"text":"不是蘇芬委員跟你啊 其他委員也是啦沒有啦 完美會委員支持我的看法沒有啦 他們都沒有支持你的異形處分啦好 那麼我們異形處分最典型就是異乎牢異那異乎牢異現在變成你沒有這個但書的話他不能選"},{"start":4184.431,"end":4210.482,"text":"義父勞役如果沒有這個但書他不能選那各位想想看義父勞役跟義科華金哪一個輕重啊這個其實沒有輕重的問題這是法官認為哪一種刑的執行罪能夠讓他改過圈散對他加以處罰所以本黨是把法律原則把它拉出來也就是說反刑宣告以外異刑處分也一樣可以納入但書讓他可以參選因為"},{"start":4212.76,"end":4229.66,"text":"現在我們法官在判決當中義務勞役還蠻不少的義務勞役還不少那義務勞役坦白講有時候就去掃公園啊怎麼樣那其實這種行為你叫他不能參選我覺得違反我們憲法對參政權的保障"},{"start":4232.864,"end":4237.351,"text":"許許委員 官官出來參選 參選完再回去關這個問題怎麼解決不是啊 這個的確是會發生啊不是 他不是褫奪公權嗎"},{"start":4247.127,"end":4271.947,"text":"也就是說如果有不適合再繼續從政的人就是用處得公權法官有處得公權這一項目嘛那既然法官不用處得公權結果你用這個輕罪然後反刑還有在執行當中執行當中可以但是異刑處分是已經法官覺得他根本沒必要這個刑了我們用勞動服務就好了那這種人更應該讓他參選以上"},{"start":4275.011,"end":4294.666,"text":"好那就請法務部跟司法院就是就委員剛剛當然除了法條你們的意見之外也麻煩就委員剛剛可能這個疫情處分的部分然後再給大家多一些知識的分享我們先請司法院我們廖佩玲法官"},{"start":4308.261,"end":4332.01,"text":"主席委員還有各位與會的先進大家好那司法院關於這個今天討論的修正草案的立場原章是認為說這個消極資格的變更是選舉政策的決定那所以這個部分我們是尊重那至於剛剛各位委員討論的關於這個疫情處分的這個部分我想要先確認一個前提就是那個第9條我們是以有期徒刑確定"},{"start":4333.63,"end":4345.257,"text":"為前提那剛剛大家討論的那個叫做義扶勞役就是要進去監獄這個部分是要判處罰金刑才會有所謂的義扶勞役這個在刑法的42條這邊有規定所以這個討論的前提好像跟我們這一條本來的第九款的本文是有一點出入的所以這個部分可能可以請大家再為釐清這樣子"},{"start":4360.405,"end":4380.989,"text":"那剛剛中選會有提到說就是那個疫情處分的宣告這個部分如果就是繳完幣之後就當然已經在現行的法律規定下就是符合參選的資格那這邊大家也可以再思考一個問題就是說當疫情處分他沒有去繳錢的時候可能還會回到有期徒刑的執行"},{"start":4387.29,"end":4400.543,"text":"那這個部分還是屬於政策決定只是說在法律的面向會有這些面向因為如果在他回去有期徒刑的執行在他公職服務的時間裡面可能就會有一段空窗大概是這樣 以上好 那就麻煩我們法務部李警察官"},{"start":4408.025,"end":4426.493,"text":"謝謝主席及各位委員的意見那關於這個異形處分的部分也是同司法院見解應該是說剛才討論委員主要在討論異形牢獄的部分異府牢獄的部分因為那就是前提是判罰進行那可能依照這款本文的狀況來看的話"},{"start":4428.674,"end":4454.154,"text":"就不會就不會落入這個消極資格的部分所以可能會限縮在這個一科法金跟一輔社會勞動的部分那一樣也會有執行上就是如果他如果執行他繳完的話當然沒有問題就是執行完畢但是也有可能是會有分歧一科的問題或是不繳納的問題也都會有適用上要考慮的部分但是呢因為這關於這部分"},{"start":4456.375,"end":4483.106,"text":"消極資格的限制呢那我們認為說在基本權保障還有限制參選的公益性上那也要兼顧被選舉權跟公共利益的維護在符合比例原則的前提下我們認為是屬於立法機關對於選舉制度的立法形成空間那原則上尊重大院的決定謝謝 以上好 謝謝 就我的理解啦就是剛剛我們司法院跟法務部的同仁有說一刑處分會是在"},{"start":4484.905,"end":4496.173,"text":"罰錢的情況下的處分才會有異形不是喔 抱歉抱歉異科罰金 異乎社會勞動 異乎勞役會出現的"},{"start":4498.581,"end":4506.928,"text":"抱歉,稍後我再釐清他們的講法就疫情處分有三種嘛一哥罰金、一福社會勞動、一福勞役這裡放寬會出現的問題是你沒有一哥罰金你不想繳錢一福社會勞動你還沒弄完"},{"start":4515.976,"end":4520.32,"text":"然後衣服老衣,還沒換衣服就先去參選所,這又要再換所以而且大家,這個罪質上絕對有輕重,罪質輕重衣服,衣鞋那個"},{"start":4531.26,"end":4557.741,"text":"疫情處分絕對比緩刑還要重緩刑就是說什麼處分都不用只要你不要再有其他的犯錯可是這個是所以他不會有留下前科所以這個疫情處分就是有處分有判決判決了我給你一顆罰金判決了到我給你轉服社會勞動或扶勞醫就好了但是呢他就是會留下前科那為什麼會留下前科不留下前科"},{"start":4558.281,"end":4580.042,"text":"這個就是罪質 他的罪質絕對有輕重那你說在異形處分三種有沒有孰輕孰重 我這個不知道 這可能沒有但是在緩刑跟異形處分之間 絕對有輕重之別罪質上有不同會有爭議就是說 他就不想繳錢 以一顆罰金馬上繳完就可以參選他說我不想繳錢 你就讓我參選"},{"start":4586.087,"end":4594.127,"text":"啊那個你不想去你還沒服完然後你那個刑期還沒服完你就要參選"},{"start":4595.933,"end":4619.814,"text":"那會跟我們第九款的前半段抵觸那我們會再製造一個相互的矛盾今天是要解決第九款裡面的矛盾輕重失衡判重的可以選判輕的不能選今天本來是單純要解決這個那如果你把疫情處分放進來會把它變成說前半段是"},{"start":4621.115,"end":4631.662,"text":"這個刑期沒有服完是不能參選你把它放進來變成說刑期沒有服完可以參選所以又製造了一個矛盾我們我們可能要三思阿信徐委員主席還有部長還有各位同仁這個有關於受反省宣告部分我們大家有共識這一部分就沒有問題那至於"},{"start":4650.219,"end":4654.079,"text":"疫情處分部分啦齁坦白講他沒有輕重的問題"},{"start":4655.325,"end":4682.86,"text":"也就是說他這個刑已經被法官換掉了他根本法官認為他沒必要這個刑而用勞動服務就可以處理所以他沒有輕重的問題但是我們這個問題因為選罷法的修正牽涉到人民的參政權所以我們也盡量我們說大家有共識我們現在把台灣的法治盡量能夠在有共識的情況之下達到我們現在能夠達到一個水準所以本席也贊同說那我們就"},{"start":4685.269,"end":4713.409,"text":"針對緩刑宣告部分疫情處分部分我們就暫時保留暫時保留部分我們就撤回這文字就修正你確認一下你的保留不是保留處委員會喔先不討論就不討論這部分那處長應該是這樣講吧我請教一下許委員就是緩刑的我們大家有共識了協商達成共識但是疫情處分這次不處理不處理啦這樣才"},{"start":4714.089,"end":4742.846,"text":"好 那個主席我們因為剛才我們有講就是說我們國民黨團是支持這個民眾黨團所提出來的這個修正動議那但是呢今天如果說大家的這個意見趨於一致那剛才徐委員也講就是說那就我們就是以緩刑宣告的就是那一行處分的就我們今天就不做處理那這樣的話我們委員會就可以達成這樣的共識和支持不好意思"},{"start":4743.766,"end":4765.647,"text":"我們這一個對緩刑宣告部分我們可以大家同意但是一選處分我們還是必須要堅持這個因為它其實有會太輕沒必要加以處理的問題所以將來我們可能還要再進步來就這個部分來加以修正"},{"start":4770.067,"end":4782.783,"text":"那這樣我們今天的委員會是怎麼樣是這條整個保留下來對 我要問我們程序問題您是要之後我們可能送那我們先保留"},{"start":4784.3,"end":4803.211,"text":"你們要聽到鎮長你的意思是說一顆罰金不要繳錢的話也可以參選一服社會勞動的話沒有服務完也可以參選那一服這個勞役在監獄裡面勞役沒有關完也可以參選我的意思是說你這樣的概念跟第九款的前判斷說前判斷是說"},{"start":4805.782,"end":4832.49,"text":"上位執行完畢啦上位執行完畢的話是不可以的那你這一段跟前半段就抵觸了我的意思是這樣子這個不是這樣因為我們區議就是不是啊議科罰金就是要繳完才能參選啊那叫執行結束啊那扶社會勞動就是你要扶完才能參選那叫執行完畢啊那你把它變成"},{"start":4833.615,"end":4842.999,"text":"各位我們一定要有謹記說罪行法定主義罪歸罪 刑歸刑而刑我們用反刑是在反刑期間觀察他的犯罪過程現在我們就稍微說了解就是醫科罰金的你不用繳錢也可以參選"},{"start":4851.983,"end":4879.833,"text":"你讓他社會勞動的沒有弄完也可以參選那現在就你們的版本就這樣子啊要扶勞役的沒有扶勞役完也可以參選你們的意思是這樣子但是這一段就跟法條的前半段法條前半段說這個上會執行結束執行會閉的通通都不能參選我意思是說這樣子是矛盾和衝突的啦這個是這樣啦因為我們必須原則上"},{"start":4881.565,"end":4908.675,"text":"盡量保障人民的公職的參選權利如果要褚瀆公權的法官要用15款褚瀆公權那法官不用褚瀆公權處理而用判嫌那嫌我們就判嫌如果你這樣子講的話那第九款全部都應該要如果照你的講法的話第九款要全部都刪除不是啦如果受褚瀆公權才不能參選的話第九款整款都要拿掉"},{"start":4910.235,"end":4923.202,"text":"韓忠謀的刑法原理 蔡敦敏的刑法總則我們都可以看出說 異刑處分是刑已經被異掉了他已經沒有刑了他變成是一顆滑尖 勞動服務"},{"start":4925.828,"end":4945.535,"text":"當他沒有執行沒有錯就是沒有執行我們才要但書也就讓他可以刪除不是啦 從你的邏輯啊你的邏輯就是說只有受褫奪公權的才不能選因為是法官判斷那第九款就應該全部刪除你應該是提全部刪除不是 我沒有講這個意思我知道你們兩個的歧義啦因為真的啦 我講一下"},{"start":4946.716,"end":4955.833,"text":"這樣好不好主席我覺得兩種方式啦一個呢就是用保留的方式另外一個是不是要休息然後再做一個協商好不好"},{"start":4959.739,"end":4977.025,"text":"沒有沒有不是不是 我知道差別在哪裡我知道因為鍾信兄跟淑芸姐的差異我知道了那個就是說 第一個 大家要有共識嘛 緩刑可以選嘛好 這個沒問題第二個 說疫情處分的部分 因為疫情處分我之前認為是兩種就是一顆髮金跟一副社會勞動嘛"},{"start":4978.365,"end":4997.897,"text":"但是我剛剛聽那個署分講的時候,他給我的資料,還有一個叫做義扶老益,因為老益是進監獄裡頭了嘛所以你們的目標是指,對嘛他沒有包括,他沒有包括,他跟你們想的是一樣的啦,所以你們要把這個釐清對,那我們就把它寫清楚,我們就不要寫疫情處分嘛,我們就乾脆寫醫科罰金"},{"start":5000.018,"end":5014.042,"text":"對我知道然後再把義服社會勞役寫成義服社會勞役就好了你不要寫疫情處分嘛明末久的意思這樣子是不是就不會包括在那個這個可以嗎你等一下問一下就不包括在那個進監獄的那個義服勞役嘛"},{"start":5017.094,"end":5035.301,"text":"這個就清楚了因為醫科罰金是可以選的你們是覺得說一服社會勞動跟醫科罰金是相等的意思差不多意思所以對一樣是清的一樣也是可以選的你的意思是說藉著建議那個不能選我們就把它明確化這樣是不是大家就比較沒有歧義"},{"start":5036.755,"end":5064.677,"text":"那個中興邱寧聽到我的意思嗎就沒有其餘的嘛因為他也沒有要包括那個義扶勞役喔他也沒有因為比那個義扶主義有三種的話玉貞委員的意見就是切開啦把名字寫把義扶把義刑不是啦有三種要讓你切開啦你的意思是這樣嗎直接把它寫得很清楚是指醫科罰金醫科罰金就可以那不用什麼我知道我知道陳委員的意思啦他要把義扶罰金啦然後扶社會社會勞動的那個把它寫在裡面啦"},{"start":5066.038,"end":5084.672,"text":"服務社會勞役他就不在裡面我知道他的意思讓我說一下這一個我不知道這樣寫這可能行政機關可能要想一下這個這樣寫好不好另外一個我要請教一下是不是司法院"},{"start":5089.996,"end":5096.4,"text":"這個可以用疫情的 這個當然是法官判的但實際上執行的是法院嗎是法院嗎對嘛 我的意思是實際上準博或什麼的 是法務部嘛 對不對所以我們今天 我知道許委員的那個意思"},{"start":5114.949,"end":5132.45,"text":"我覺得也有道理啦但我們今天如果只有寫疫情處分會有問題啦因為這太大了啦那我覺得共識在這裡休息五分鐘"},{"start":5134.506,"end":5158.843,"text":"不然你聽我講完啦 你聽我講完齁你聽我講完 我們休息五分鐘徐委員 林委或什麼然後我們跟法務部 司法部我們去看有沒有辦法把這個文字寫清楚然後 我們休息來處理然後再來處理 好不好 可不可以好 那我們現在就休息五分鐘"},{"start":5161.685,"end":5174.436,"text":"你不要拿麥克風講 沒關係文字要怎麼調 然後給大家看一下 你寫一下文字 寫文字"},{"start":5185.144,"end":5196.71,"text":"我也懷念執行了啦然後中選會可能也要 中選會也要啦 因為他們執行機關你們加油 先到這一席前帳會一席沒有啦 一個人的錢要一人八"},{"start":5207.294,"end":5213.035,"text":"不可以不想公佈立法啦,如果你有正確的要申請立法,不可以啦"},{"start":5229.92,"end":5238.41,"text":"曾經議科發生什麼問題?議席還不能進行完畢?因為你的議席還不能進行完畢,他也沒有資格要加油,人家經紀還沒進行完畢"},{"start":5246.459,"end":5252.082,"text":"他現在是要說有期徒刑,雖然還沒執行完畢,但是有期徒刑沒有執行完畢,還是可以假設沒有執行完畢啊"},{"start":5272.615,"end":5278.422,"text":"假設期間的時候 假設期間隨時可以進去的我們意見 反正我們是執行的其實都已經很難了 執行一段時間 結果發現經濟悄悄的就執行完畢了"},{"start":5291.714,"end":5311.794,"text":"這樣就算了啊 勞動服務也是一樣啊 做做的就好啊對啊 所以不知道 不不用說你多加一層衣服就好啊你衣服勞動這個 衣服勞動這多少啊 衣服勞動一萬塊啊沒有沒有 衣服勞動是一直來的衣服勞運一直來的"},{"start":5313.536,"end":5332.034,"text":"異府勞役齁我們現在是有期徒刑的嘛齁啊你如果判罰金才會異府勞役啊判有期徒刑的不會異府勞役換句話說你判罰金的異府勞役他也是可以的就是不是因為我們這次有期徒刑尚未執行"},{"start":5333.114,"end":5357.22,"text":"不是判罰金尚未執行,你如果罰金,用你的勞役,要不然執行完畢也是可以現在不行啊不不,判罰金,因為我們這裡是說判有期補刑你本刑不是刑,是罰金,他就可以參選所以你罰金沒有執行完畢也是可以參選啊對啊因為他沒有刑啊"},{"start":5359.421,"end":5374.595,"text":"它不是隨行的一種法法規定的是行我們這裡是有期徒刑行就是實行徒刑徒刑有期徒刑法規定徒刑你法規定的不是自己的啊這不是我親自己的啊"},{"start":5375.876,"end":5390.2,"text":"所以這條文是有期徒刑,不是判罰刑,義父勞役不可以執行,判罰刑就可以我們是說...我們沒有寫疫情處分,我們是說國有會執行我們是說判處有期徒刑,國有會執行,義父勞役不可以執行"},{"start":5400.543,"end":5401.585,"text":"我們是講前段的問題"},{"start":5411.684,"end":5425.65,"text":"你這些都是這種大的事情你這去叫叫那裡怎麼可以選擇啊對啊 又放得太寬了一點都沒限收叫叫就不用理他"},{"start":5443.039,"end":5446.861,"text":"社會勞動也沒有問題啊"},{"start":5472.339,"end":5483.091,"text":"有時候會被他放得太寬所以"},{"start":5491.821,"end":5492.201,"text":"老爺嘿啊"},{"start":5571.869,"end":5572.553,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5642.978,"end":5646.877,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5837.073,"end":5838.128,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6401.493,"end":6402.956,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6458.353,"end":6460.477,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6679.65,"end":6681.459,"text":"谢谢观看 下次见"},{"start":7177.073,"end":7179.462,"text":"谢谢观看下集再见"},{"start":7643.387,"end":7644.838,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7822.919,"end":7822.939,"text":"市長"},{"start":7850.649,"end":7853.07,"text":"因為法官不會做這個社會勞動的宣告"},{"start":7880.232,"end":7881.633,"text":"我們繼續宣告那剛剛休息"},{"start":7901.86,"end":7905.762,"text":"本黨團認為還要再進行黨團協商必須要再進行黨團協商還要再黨團協商一起黨團協商"},{"start":7923.53,"end":7937.141,"text":"我們先知都沒有趕快回去,堅持咧"},{"start":7944.104,"end":7952.894,"text":"好那我們因為為了達成共識我們第26條第9款我們就送保留協商啦"},{"start":7954.444,"end":7979.049,"text":"等一下我可不可以說一句還是你要講我覺得我們委員會應該是這樣講好不好受緩刑的我們有共識不用再協商了但是後面這個什麼疫情處分者這個部分送協商才不會浪費時間好不好大家他們如果協商沒有成受緩刑的同意張宏樂委員所講的對好不好"},{"start":7981.049,"end":8000.68,"text":"我同意剛剛張宏祿委員講的這個就是受緩刑的我們就是大家意見都一致嘛那許委員這個我們再另行討論啦或者是你要黨團協商的時候來討論但是針對總統副總統選舉罷免法我們把詐房放進去這個也一起送到政黨協商啦好不好好"},{"start":8005.39,"end":8027.296,"text":"那個對不起主席那個是第六款嗎就是把那個炸房等一下等一下好我們就26條第九款就是受海情宣告者不在此先這部分是大家要有共識的那其一部分就送出委員會進行黨團協商好吧第九款的部分就這樣"},{"start":8033.126,"end":8049.842,"text":"因為這個必須要整體一起處理,整體一起送黨員協商也就是緩刑宣告部分也是重點沒有,這部分我們就跟黨員協商的時候,委員會的意見緩刑宣告應該是大家共識,那文字怎麼修,大家再協商"},{"start":8055.455,"end":8064.564,"text":"好因為本來就要整條沒有辦法這本來同一款也沒辦法也沒辦法只能處理這一款"},{"start":8066.809,"end":8088.826,"text":"好那我們第九款的部分就先這樣那因為在翁小林委員有在第五款也有提出修正那以及蘇巧惠委員剛剛在修正動議都有提到詐欺犯罪危害防治條例翁小林委員是放在第五款"},{"start":8089.887,"end":8111.996,"text":"那蘇巧惠委員是放在第六款那這部分不曉得大家意見如何文字都一樣嘛都是禍詐欺犯罪危害防治條例好那我們請內政部給來意見"},{"start":8116.221,"end":8135.216,"text":"有關於這個詐欺就是簡稱叫詐房條例因為我們看到說那個他是根據刑法第339條之4個加重其刑責那在那個這個選罷法26條裡面的話呢我們會覺得說放在第6款的部分會比較像因為在第6款裡面已經有提到第339條之4或"},{"start":8137.778,"end":8152.443,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例之罪也就是那個李博義委員他們的提的修正動議會比較好那翁小林委員的部分他是犯在組織犯罪啦齁那這個不一定是全部是組織犯罪的部分我想這樣在那個法理上面可能會比較好這樣"},{"start":8154.244,"end":8182.193,"text":"好那我們是不是就尊重內政部的意見就是我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例那就放在第六好沒問題尊重內政部的意見好那文字也是列出來一下好沒關係意識人員繼續處理文字的部分那另外還"},{"start":8183.666,"end":8200.491,"text":"不是啊 我們就照修正條文通過第六條這樣就好了啊第六款啊 第六款啊李博弈委員少了防治兩個字喔不是啊 新的有補啊新的有補啊第一個他們撤銷了嘛"},{"start":8203.357,"end":8212.282,"text":"沒有啦對啦 有補了啦 我有看過啦"},{"start":8222.895,"end":8243.513,"text":"好 那我們就按照這個修正動議 第三次的修正動議的文字來通過那另外林一錦委員有提的我看一下第三 一樣是26條第三款"},{"start":8246.348,"end":8252.793,"text":"我們內政委員會 提案委員沒有來我們就不處理我們第26條第3款就不予處理什麼人都一樣沒有來就不處理同意 同意林議員委員提案不予處理"},{"start":8294.009,"end":8298.03,"text":"好那我們現在進行總統副總統選舉判明法的法條討論一樣是第26條"},{"start":8303.572,"end":8329.933,"text":"好 李博一召委也有提修正動議我們先處理可能會有共識的就是26條第6款一樣跟剛剛公職人員選舉罷免法一樣在這個第339條之四的後面再加上或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例"},{"start":8335.956,"end":8358.437,"text":"有關於我說明一下來主席謝謝不好意思我說明一下我們剛剛選辦法26條放進去嘛那我們一樣在總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面我們一樣把它放進去把這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例放進來謝謝所以我們的修正動議裡面有防治兩個字嗎有加入嗎"},{"start":8360.439,"end":8375.946,"text":"那一樣就是跟剛才公職委員宣布辦理法一樣那我們是不是就照修正動議通過請問各位委員有關第26條第6款的部分有無異議如果沒有異議就按修正動議通過總統 總統 副總統"},{"start":8395.354,"end":8395.374,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8422.872,"end":8423.456,"text":"方小林委員"},{"start":8427.489,"end":8447.293,"text":"好 請李博弈委員我繼續說明 總統副總統選擇法在第六條裡面我們加了架防進來之外呢我們第九條是沒有做更動相對其他政黨的版本是不一樣的第九款裡面我們是沒有做更動所以第九款好像的部分對 相對其他政黨版本是不一樣的可以來討論那我是覺得總統副總統這個我們不宜放鬆啦那這個社會會比較有這個期待 謝謝"},{"start":8455.455,"end":8473.375,"text":"好也就是第26條第9款的部分民進黨我們李柏毅召委建議召員原條文啦那不曉得總統副總統全體報名法第26條第9款也就是緩刑的部分不曉得大家有沒有意見民進黨這邊"},{"start":8479.18,"end":8506.699,"text":"現在是在討論魯柏宇議員所提的那個總統副總統是吧對我知道他說是緩情案選那第九款劉委員有提緩情的部分以前我們在修這兩個法都一起修的他說要比較嚴格"},{"start":8512.255,"end":8530.972,"text":"沒有問題啊就是總統跟副總統就是維持原案歐小林的提案是有懷疑沒有了沒有討論了好那我們就副總統宣舉報名法我們就請那個李博弈交為剛剛提的修正動議第六條好吧這個"},{"start":8533.734,"end":8547.265,"text":"榨氣防治一個款的部分榨氣防治的部分把它納進去其餘調溫不予修正我不曉得大家有無異議無異議就這樣好"},{"start":8571.096,"end":8572.859,"text":"給你休息兩分鐘多三十秒"},{"start":8581.543,"end":8581.703,"text":"主席"},{"start":8599.11,"end":8599.571,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8619.04,"end":8619.241,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8640.623,"end":8647.226,"text":"我們不用自己去扭扭,不想吐我知啊,那樣子還好嗎?應該好啊,對不起,我們差一點點"},{"start":8662.414,"end":8664.136,"text":"來 我載你來來 我載你"},{"start":8677.629,"end":8678.33,"text":"現在已經是6點45分鐘"},{"start":8704.176,"end":8714.92,"text":"請問各位委員照剛才的協商結論通過請問有無異議無異議通過那做一下決議討論事項所列議案公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案及總統副總統選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案均已審查完略"},{"start":8733.038,"end":8743.22,"text":"拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員公職人員選舉罷免法我們後續還要經過黨團協商總統、副總統選舉罷免法第26條的修正草案不需經由黨團協商在場委員是否有異議無異議那本案於"},{"start":8759.264,"end":8779.17,"text":"本案於院會討論時有本席做補充說明審查通過之條文、條次引述條文部分文字及相關法之用語授權主席及議事人員整理本次修正之條文行政機關如有補充立法說明會後請盡速送至內政委員會必立納入審查報告本次會議到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}