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副總召 歡迎 歡迎 請坐還有另外兩位呢還有蘇理長跟首席來來來 歡迎 歡迎 歡迎還在等台灣民眾黨團好 王小曉 OK OK好 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部也幾位熱關心的牛許廷委員馬文君委員 徐喬欣委員 黃建斌委員還有陳冠廷委員熱情歡迎我們今天要繼續協商軍購特別條"},{"start":2211.907,"end":2239.708,"text":"條例草案 在這裡再一次介紹我們今天列席的重要的閣員、官員我們首先歡迎國防部副部長以及國防部所屬的所有列席的官員熱情歡迎財政部國庫署陳署長 歡迎經濟部陳副署長 歡迎法部廖參事 歡迎速發部、衛福部、國家發展委員會、公共工程委員會所有列席的各位官員 大家午安 非常歡迎"},{"start":2241.479,"end":2267.17,"text":"好各位所有列席的黨團幹部我們今天開始就繼續要進入主條討論我們就開始進行第一條的主條討論好嗎好有關立法目的的版文有現在有行政院民眾黨團國民黨團的版本那我想請各黨團輪流發言台灣民眾黨團先提出來請發言好嗎謝謝"},{"start":2272.745,"end":2292.471,"text":"第一條好 謝謝院長那關於我們軍過的特別條例那我其實也代表台灣民眾黨都要表達過很多次"},{"start":2294.284,"end":2320.432,"text":"那台灣民眾黨一直以來我們的題目就是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例所以我們對因應這個中共的一個軍事的威脅持續的一個擴張及為建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力的武器裝備"},{"start":2322.413,"end":2342.889,"text":"運用同城的賀祖發揮聯合戰力以提升聯合作戰的效能確保國家安全來制定這個條例所以我們台灣民眾黨一直以來支持我們的國防制度都沒有改變這裡再一次的做一個說明謝謝謝謝國民黨團 牛許廷輝你上次有意見因為休會休息所以沒有發言今天請繼續發言"},{"start":2350.368,"end":2370.896,"text":"謝謝主席 這上一次就反正是名稱的問題嘛但是我果然嘛 上次不幸命中嘛上次講了希望淡化政治色彩大家針對法條的本質跟內容來做詳細闡述就好那當然就被場外委員無情攻擊但我想該講的話還是要講然後我想了一個方法 大家參考一下因為現在三個版本文字各有落差"},{"start":2371.536,"end":2390.623,"text":"後來我回去找了一下過去幾次我們國防的特別條例包含什麼戰機等等強化陸海宮特別條例它的寫法是這樣的是為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後面建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力等等等等等等所以我覺得用為因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要"},{"start":2391.664,"end":2401.222,"text":"這個跟過去行政院各個提出來的版本文字是一模一樣的沒有政治色彩然後我覺得是比較有機會拋出來看看有沒有機會三黨達成共識的以上供大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":2406.431,"end":2428.311,"text":"官部的部分跟上次協調的時候的那個說明是一樣的就是說就第一條的這個部分重點是在於國民黨的版本是只限於透過對美國政府及其授權體系軍事裝備與香港服務採購那就這個部分我想我們整個"},{"start":2429.727,"end":2447.041,"text":"整體的這個不對證這個還有強化防衛韌性的這個採購特別條例的應該不只限於美國政府的一個軍事裝備及相關服務案的採購所以像這一個部分再請各位朝野委員能夠斟酌就這個部分"},{"start":2449.269,"end":2477.065,"text":"好 謝謝顧部長的說明那個民進黨有沒有要補充說明第一條立法目的莊惠雄委員請謝謝院長還有在場所有的協商代表你看嘛我們上次那個這個整個軍國條例我們名稱的最後我們就採取台灣民眾黨家嘛其實你如果看台灣民眾黨家是大家都給你尊重啦那你跟行政院版其實哪有什麼不一樣"},{"start":2478.126,"end":2496.543,"text":"那以第一條來看的話,我看大家也不用這樣糾結啦你去把它看,其實前面都幾乎講得差不多嘛你說因應中共軍事威脅,持續擴增台灣民眾黨你也跟行政院的提案一樣國民黨你就認為說,這叫做因應國際情勢"},{"start":2501.528,"end":2520.34,"text":"的一個變化這個範圍好像比較寬了好像說台灣的威脅除了中共以外好像還有其他的國家啊對台灣因為有軍事上的一個脅迫這個是深謀遠慮啦看得非常遠這也是一件好事啊但是我們其實是在聚焦啦我很不客氣的講啊"},{"start":2522.915,"end":2542.537,"text":"第一條 乾脆就寫四個字 我都可以這樣講保護台灣 都一樣 四個字其實幾乎都可以含瓜所以我的意思是跟政黨之間 我們是不是也尊重國防部你認為國防部在第一條 行政院的院版哪一個地方沒有把你的含色進來"},{"start":2544.256,"end":2570.654,"text":"來改這個 我們糾結在這裡才比較有意義嘛不然否則 院長你看這個第一條其實是各個政黨裡面文字敘述不一樣而已 含義 精神那幾乎都是相同啦我看今天Q&A很好啦 很好喔大家就來這裡有心想要解決問題我們第一條是可以不用糾結 我們就都差不多嘛 精神意義一樣除非你認為國安部提出這個案子是文藝不通"},{"start":2571.834,"end":2588.744,"text":"這個好像是國安部都沒有唸書這個字寫的比各黨團都不好那我們就不踩他們不然如果是大家覺得可以的精神差不多的話是不是可以來就按照行政院的版本得屌這個不是深水區啦這個只是一個精神而已啦"},{"start":2593.058,"end":2595.961,"text":"謝謝主席大家午安就第一條的部分我們當然如果說就院版要剛剛其實劉委員也提到在我們過去其實有兩次在特別預算裡面是針對國防預算的部分"},{"start":2608.837,"end":2612.458,"text":"那如果說因應敵情威脅我想這個可能大家都可以接受因為我過去也是這樣寫那另外在國民黨黨團的提案裡面有特別提到因為我們現在很希望在有限的預算底下我們怎麼樣去確保我們武器的獲得或者我們相關設備武器裝備的獲得其實是比較有保障的因為像最近也發生可能我們一開始覺得是跟美國合作可是後來"},{"start":2638.987,"end":2661.125,"text":"卻是拉脫維亞這樣的國家他們提供的一個合作我想這個如果在中間有這樣子的變化對我們的獲得其實是不太有保障所以再加上我相信所有的委員都非常的信任美國以及美國政府它授權體系的軍事裝備以及相關的服務採購這個應該沒有問題所以我們認為這個部分應該要把它加進來謝謝"},{"start":2668.584,"end":2675.97,"text":"說馬文君委員還是回到劉委員許廷所提的為因應敵情威脅如果回到劉許廷委員這樣一個建議的話台灣民眾黨團跟民進黨團有意見嗎好請劉委員請"},{"start":2684.542,"end":2705.728,"text":"主席我補充說明一下這個我自己的提出來的idea是前面改成剛剛那一句話大家都知道了嘛後面我是用民眾黨的版本啦但如果國民黨黨團這邊對於要不要把美國加進去我們就再商量一下那一樣我覺得大家我只是丟一個想法嘛這個拋磚引玉大家集思廣益目標還是達成共識啦我希望這一條可以趕快把它進行完畢 以上好 徐小新委員請發言"},{"start":2710.117,"end":2736.05,"text":"呃 我的建議就是說其實第一條齁 那我們因為應該是這樣說因為我們在上一次的協商的時候我們針對這個名稱的部分是採取了台灣民眾黨團的提案嘛所以國民黨黨團的提案是因為我們在名稱的時候就有寫到對美軍事採購所以在第一條的部分那必須得寫到對美不然的話我跟我的名稱上面我在第一條上我就不太合"},{"start":2736.77,"end":2761.552,"text":"但是因為現在我們的名稱是採用台灣民眾黨黨團的提案所以我的建議跟劉許廷委員比較相似就是說應該除了我覺得因應中共軍事威脅它當然是其中一個但我們今天要厚植國防實力的理由有很多包含我們整體第一島鏈上面可能的軍事威脅其實都是我們為什麼要提升國防整體性能的一環"},{"start":2762.433,"end":2774.683,"text":"所以中共軍事威脅是一種但是整體國際情勢它才是真正能夠包含整個為什麼我們要強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的整個主軸所以我的建議跟劉詠琳委員是一樣就是說我們是因應這個敵情等等的就按照過去的特別預算的這個寫法"},{"start":2780.788,"end":2808.405,"text":"那後續的話我覺得我們也可以在這個部分不要花太多的時間那就同意這個台灣民眾黨團的版本那這樣的話我覺得名稱跟第一條也能夠比較對上那換句話說就是台灣民眾黨黨團的第一條因應中共軍事威脅這六個字拿掉以後改為因應敵情威脅極迫切國防需要其他都不變"},{"start":2810.7,"end":2827.568,"text":"那這樣的話,台灣民眾黨團、民進黨團有沒有意見?如果沒有意見,我們就...如果要...本來我是蠻支持那個小新委員跟牛委員的意見啦只是我跟他們只有小小的差異,就是應該用行政院版"},{"start":2829.434,"end":2841.662,"text":"行政院版改那個紐巡庭委員的意見如果一定要用民眾黨的版本改我希望民眾黨的版本一定要加進後職國防產業這一個段落"},{"start":2846.789,"end":2869.162,"text":"那你就把國民黨的尾巴接上去了行政院的頭國民黨的尾巴行政院版還有一個跟民眾黨不一樣的地方就是後面它有後職國防產業那我們會希望後職國防產業對台灣是好事就產業面是好事就社會跟國防的韌性也是好事那這個徐議員請"},{"start":2874.44,"end":2889.474,"text":"這個蔡總長我跟您說明一下就是說因為呢我當然是支持後職國防產業但是因為在這一條上面處理這個事情的話那就會牽涉到後面的條文所以如果我們在後面的條文那大家有意見不一樣的地方而我第一條這裡已經通過會很麻煩"},{"start":2891.876,"end":2907.509,"text":"對所以如果這樣的話就變第一條也得保留那如果我們覺得第一條能夠我們不再生水區我們就盡快讓他通過是不是我們就按照這樣處理我再解釋一下那個就是說我們這樣列是比較比較寬的協法那後面如果大家後面的協商"},{"start":2908.47,"end":2925.739,"text":"可以有涉及到後職國防產業的部分那前面的條文已經有了那後面在後面如果處理沒有如果沒有的話假設表決沒有那沒有就沒有嘛但至少不能有了就又前面沒有這個這樣大家懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":2926.51,"end":2926.71,"text":"第一 國際敵情"},{"start":2947.44,"end":2963.628,"text":"敵情威脅以及迫切 其他不便往下推前面這個部分我沒有意見啦就後面因為這個也會牽涉到我們後面可能要討論的因為我們這一次好像特別條例在國中兩黨大概的"},{"start":2964.848,"end":2981.815,"text":"大家討論的結果是比較傾向說是對美採購的部分所以就這個部分如果說我們把美國政府跟他授權的體系把它加進來我想其實也可以確保我們在獲得的時候是比較有保障的所以我們才會主張其實應該要把這個加進來那現在學委員請"},{"start":2987.603,"end":3016.419,"text":"我想請教一下這個蔡永昭就是如果說您覺得這個後職國防產業這幾個字是特別關鍵的那假設說在民眾黨的版本裡面加在這個發揮聯合戰力鬥號後職國防產業鬥號以提升聯合作戰效能後面一樣這樣是可接受的嗎我的想法大概跟你很接近我覺得各位提的都非常好把它加進來都非常好可是呢刻意去把它去掉了就不好"},{"start":3017.304,"end":3037.892,"text":"你像譬如說你說我聽完你們說為了因應國際局勢嘛這是好事嘛但刻意去把它刪掉說因應中共軍事的威脅持續擴張我覺得沒必要啦因為我們今天為什麼要有這個軍購條例的原因就是真的就是要因應中國持續的擴張對台灣的威脅嘛各政黨把這個放進去喔"},{"start":3043.194,"end":3048.316,"text":"不會兇啦 不會兇到你啦這將軍你也很清楚嘛 你當一輩子的軍人你怎麼會不可能不知道說我們真正最大的威脅是來自於中共持續武力的一個擴張呢但是各位認為說可能不是 可能還有別的你要因應國際的一個情勢 我也贊成 把它放進來可是要放進來 如果你可以去把它說因應中共軍事威脅 持續擴張去把它刪掉的話"},{"start":3067.782,"end":3073.105,"text":"又好像我們在閃躲什麼又好奇怪我們就開宗明義來講的話這一題喔立法院本來就是要跟社會對話那社會上我們台灣民眾感受到最大的軍事威脅當然就是中共的一個軍事的一個威脅嘛那你要把還有因應國際局勢進來很好啊我們現在就是把它加進來啦啊不要用刪去的啊你用徐曉新委你提那個我很贊成啊要後面那個要加進些什麼很好啊啊可是刻意去"},{"start":3096.718,"end":3119.652,"text":"排除把說原來的整個軍國條例就是要因應整個中共軍事武力持續的擴張對台灣造成的一個威脅我們把這個去劃掉以後大家拿起來對會覺得說我們刻意要排除些什麼這樣對大家可能也不好啦好不好好 謝謝那個徐小英委員您剛剛所說的那個把它變成文字化一下給我等一下念一遍徵詢大家的同意好嗎好的好的在過程中 女委員可以繼續發言請發言謝謝主席"},{"start":3125.655,"end":3141.422,"text":"這個蔡英文時期立法院徵訂新式戰機採購特別條例第一條立法理由寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後來提出的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例第一條立法理由也是寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要那時候你們怎麼不寫中共"},{"start":3142.242,"end":3166.652,"text":"啊現在突然要寫現在是幹嘛所以我才講嘛你用一個相對中性的詞重點是這些內容嘛所以我講今天你要做對照你不應該拿這些東西做對照你應該跟過去行政院提出來的版本來做對照還是說我們現在就是有心要炒作這件事要升高對立的情勢這樣從外交的角度來看不見得是好事我很持平很客觀的在這裡做這個提醒那如果連第一條我們都沒有辦法達成共識那就只好保留了謝謝"},{"start":3168.12,"end":3172.963,"text":"第一條大家今天氣氛也都很好然後呢其實現在也是綜合了就是剛蔡總召所堅持的幾個後職國防實力的部分也綜合了民眾黨團的這個"},{"start":3190.113,"end":3218.315,"text":"大概的脈絡然後呢國民黨在這邊呢其實也都配合了然後再加上前面的所謂的因應敵情這個是過去特別條這個特別預算的都是這樣子的寫法我覺得也沒有不妥那如果在這個事情上面大家能夠就還沒有到深水區就讓他通過我覺得是比較好的否則的話那我覺得國民黨在這邊也都配合各個政黨非常多了那如果都沒有辦法的話那就只能把它保留那我覺得第一條就這樣保留有點可惜以上建議"},{"start":3218.775,"end":3247.022,"text":"好 林主委謝謝 林主委請發言我認為因為反正現在文字已經出來了那是不是把文字讓大家看一下之後最重要的還是看一下國防部會 會 會因為我覺得基本上它影響到的是後面我們真的就是幾個項目跟欄目當中我們到底是不是要把它放進特別條例裡面所以我的建議只是趕快把它文字化然後國防部也要發表一下那個等一下文字出來以後我們會請國防部表達意見大家請放心來 范議員請發言"},{"start":3249.341,"end":3249.362,"text":"好"},{"start":3250.086,"end":3279.173,"text":"就是到底要不要直接點出中共還是寫敵情就好那這部分我也是尊重國防部的意見那我只是看起來說行政院版有名指中共民眾黨版也有名指中共那只有國民黨一版沒有寫中共那如果就尊重多數意見的話其實因為這幾年的情勢又跟蔡英文總統的情勢不太一樣那個中共的軍事威脅是加大的那如果本來就有"},{"start":3279.773,"end":3286.357,"text":"然後特別刪掉的確有莊瑞雄幹事長講的覺得有點敏感不過我也樂見剛剛徐曉欣委員覺得可以把後職國防產業放在民眾黨版的發揮聯合戰力的後面我覺得這樣蠻好的就是能夠寬一點那聽起來就是大家並不支持要把美國政府採購放進去因為這樣又太限縮了那我想以上意見那我尊重那個國防部"},{"start":3308.308,"end":3323.668,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 等一下馬上就把文字稿差不多出來了請大家看一下 我們再請公安部表達一下意見剛開始第一條會有一點 討論大家意見比較多一點慢慢往前推進會比較順一點我們每次審法案的經驗都是這樣子 大家請稍安勿躁"},{"start":3350.578,"end":3373.515,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部請聽一下因為在印 我先用口頭我用口頭來唸一遍請大家聽一下 然後表達意見我們第一條因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要為建制可保衛國家安全之極強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後執國防產業"},{"start":3377.918,"end":3383.808,"text":"以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例"},{"start":3392.961,"end":3398.423,"text":"我剛剛沒聽清楚厚植國防實力還是厚植國防產業厚植國防產業小心你這邊剛剛提的是國防實力嗎"},{"start":3412.069,"end":3432.974,"text":"我提一下 這個東西是剛才 我回說一下 這個東西是蔡奇昌總召建議的說想要把行政院裡面的後職國防產業加進來那但我們這邊的要求就是說 那我前面的要按照過去的寫法是為因敵情威脅就是大家互相做一個 就是低調嘛 大家互相做一個比較 大家互相有理的這個協調"},{"start":3435.795,"end":3448.265,"text":"但是當然就是說如果對於我覺得是這樣子的對於前面這個如果大家還有這麼多意見那後面也沒有必要就是後面也沒有必要按照蔡啟昌總召的想法去處理了所以這個是跟這個慶紅總召講一下這個剛剛的脈絡謝謝"},{"start":3451.144,"end":3453.665,"text":"第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要 為建制可保護"},{"start":3470.309,"end":3497.218,"text":"國家安全及強化不對稱戰略之武器裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰略後職國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例知道第二個位我們先把它撤掉只有一個位一開始就位因應國家剩下就是建制可對第二個位我們就把它拿掉那這樣的話各黨能幹嗎請國防部表達意見可以嗎請顧部長請"},{"start":3501.528,"end":3528.038,"text":"我如果剛剛聽得沒有錯的話文字上是我應該是說未因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要然後後面那個未沒有了就建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對陣戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後質國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特質基本條例是這樣嗎是的"},{"start":3529.98,"end":3547.83,"text":"那就我這邊來看的話呢它這個運用重整嚇阻下面的那個發揮聯合戰力跟下面再往下的那個以提升聯合專效能事實上是有點感覺上是有點重複的感覺吧"},{"start":3549.261,"end":3567.211,"text":"大家不會覺得嗎就是說一個是發揮聯合戰力換句話說你把以提升聯合作戰效能給拿掉了就是發揮聯合後職國防產業確保國際安全如果是不是能夠運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後職國防產業"},{"start":3575.56,"end":3600.406,"text":"然後提升那個聯合那一段就拿掉確保國際安全提升聯合作戰效能也是我們原來就有的啦我只是講說前面的花威聯合戰力跟我們原來行政院版的它是運用這個從城攔截網打到台灣引進高科技及人工智慧加速擊殺聯合作戰它有三個一個部分那這個能不能有一個"},{"start":3608.69,"end":3621.36,"text":"我建議一下為因應敵情威脅及破解國防需要建制可防衛國家安全及強化不正戰略武器及裝備運用從人嚇阻強化防衛體系後質國防產業以提升聯合專案效能"},{"start":3629.72,"end":3632.804,"text":"我覺得國民黨的版本裡面本來就有後子國防實力"},{"start":3645.459,"end":3668.173,"text":"整個後子國防實力它的包括的一個面向範圍而且是真正的讓我們提升我們台灣的國防這樣的力量那你單純的把它包括在一個產業齁那跟我們的整個立法的一個精神所以我在這邊台灣民眾黨講團還是建議"},{"start":3671.089,"end":3695.434,"text":"我們同意來增加但是從厚紙國防產業我們把它修正為厚紙國防實力實力包含性比較大比較廣那請問一下就是說如果說這個配合上剛才這個顧部長講的那一些然後再把這個產業改成實力的話會是怎麼樣的條文"},{"start":3698.836,"end":3721.192,"text":"我們現在修正,大致上我來念一遍應該是因應敵情威脅,第二個我也拿掉,建制可保衛國家安全等等再來運用重層嚇阻,強化防衛韌性,厚植國防實力,以提升聯合作戰效能,確保國家安全特制定本條例我想民進黨、台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團還有國防部應該都沒有意見吧因為這個把國防部"},{"start":3729.855,"end":3733.118,"text":"還是希望厚植觀光產業這個意志能夠放進來"},{"start":3736.383,"end":3756.991,"text":"不好意思部長我詢問一下您剛剛就是在前一輪的時候有講一段是什麼就是你前一輪的時候有講一段那個是什麼呀剛剛沒有記到不好意思剛剛院長已經有把它納進去了就是運用重層嚇阻強化防任體系強化防衛任性嘛是吧強化防衛任性後子國防產業"},{"start":3764.363,"end":3772.567,"text":"那如果說是強化那如果綜合就是民眾黨這邊然後跟這個部長這邊就變成強化防衛任性厚植國防實力呢就是大家對於厚植國防產業這一件事情因為我在我們國安法裡面本來我們就是要強調國防自主強化厚植我們國防產業把我們國安法的意旨把它納進來我不覺得這個在第一條裡面顯示這樣有什麼不好啊"},{"start":3792.196,"end":3818.382,"text":"沒有沒有我們沒有覺得不好只是說因為現在各個黨大家有不同的內容嘛那我們只是在說是不是說大家參照不同的這個意見可以把它整合在一起變成一個大家有一個共識所以大家其實多多少少你看本來國民黨裡面有一些的現在我們也沒去堅持嘛那本來民進黨有一些的那可能行政院版本的那也做一些調整嘛所以我的意思只是說如果像剛剛部長有特別講說他希望可以放入強化防衛任性那也OK啊"},{"start":3820.543,"end":3836.516,"text":"那這個部分的話那後面這個陳青龍總召民眾黨這邊認為國防產業變成實力那是不是這樣子大家可以尋求一個就是大家的一個共識我的問題是這個沒有反對說要不能放產業兩個字謝謝我先來唸了來蔡總召請蔡總召謝謝"},{"start":3842.111,"end":3857.217,"text":"剛剛徐委員所講的我回應他是說我非常跟他的意見幾乎是一致的那為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我們都很清楚知道國防產業基本上我們台灣除了半導體產業AI產業"},{"start":3859.238,"end":3881.735,"text":"如果未來因應著讓我們國家更安全台灣更有軍事上的實力那國防產業的發展不僅對國家的安全台海的和平有幫助更重要的是我們又可以多一個在經濟上可以讓我們的中小企業因為投入了國防產業的生產其實對我們的經濟發展產業的發展其實幫忙很大"},{"start":3885.658,"end":3904.89,"text":"那我也知道因為可能或許民眾黨在後面的這個談到金額的時候或許他們對於這個強化國防任性也就是我們國防自主國防自治的部分或許有不一樣的想法所以我剛剛跟小新聞解釋的時候我就先講到我們先把範圍擴大"},{"start":3906.371,"end":3926.54,"text":"因為最後要怎麼通過哪一些或許我們最後也不能達成共識那個金額的部分也不能達成共識那或許後來這個民眾黨也會被社會或者被民進黨說服你們也覺得適度的國防自主能夠讓我們的國防產業得以在台灣生根發展"},{"start":3927,"end":3952.522,"text":"或許你們也會最後會覺得這個很重要所以我的意思是說在前面的裡面其實它不是它不是這個這一步法這一步這個特別條例的核心嘛所以剛剛才會跟那個徐曉鑫委員達成一個共識他也支持說產業先放因為最後那個金額要不要做還是還是大家要來討論嘛所以呢把產業放進去我認為對整個的"},{"start":3955.064,"end":3980.369,"text":"思維上面我覺得會更完整對我們的國防自主跟產業的發展其實都是多面向的幫忙這個也是展現我們的態度所以我的想法基本上是這樣子各位黨團幹部讓我現在已經發到各位手上了容許我再念一遍如果大家還有不同意見再發言好嗎麻煩請國安部顧部長手上也有一份給國安部顧部長有一份"},{"start":3982.269,"end":4010.285,"text":"第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻強化防衛韌性後值國防實力以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制令本條例各位黨團幹部如果都同意這樣一個修正的話國防部副部長"},{"start":4012.286,"end":4031.105,"text":"我是建議就是參照大家參照就後職國王實力能不能前面加個後職國王自主實力那不要外購嗎那個我想我們就針對這個,好請專委請,請準備"},{"start":4034.554,"end":4047.705,"text":"院長還有各位協商代表,我看大家剛剛哄堂一笑行政院光不提出這樣的一個版本,它是花了那麼久的時間去盤點"},{"start":4050.558,"end":4072.794,"text":"那其實到最後你說這個條文會差距多大 也沒有啦 大家談得很有共識了嘛但是呢也不要忘記啦 國安部提出來應應整個國家的一個需求條文裡面讓國人去感受到各個政黨來支持我們共同的國家 而且是國防的一個自主啊"},{"start":4073.314,"end":4100.932,"text":"我覺得這一點是值得應該是敬佩的啦我反而覺得核心就是要國防來做一個自主我們就是沒資料 不然要跟別人買我們看有資料 搞不好我們自己的國防產業可以有辦法來自主以外然後又變成 形成一個產業那又是一股很大的一個經濟上的一個力量所以我認為 顧部長這樣說把國防自主 加那個自主兩個字齁應該是我 我認為應該是各黨大家一起來支持是好事好"},{"start":4103.496,"end":4103.658,"text":"好 請長話短說 謝謝"},{"start":4105.811,"end":4133.53,"text":"是 是 我剛剛本來想的是後職國防實力前面加產業級這三個字喔因為剛剛幾位都說並不反對產業那有國防產業級實力其實就兩者都有喔那當然 顧部長的那個自主我覺得可能更好喔因為不管怎麼做我們國防要有自主的實力降低依賴我想這個跟防衛韌性喔是這一次很重要的主題所以你同意顧部長的嗎你同意顧部長那個 對好的好 謝謝喔林培強委員請發言"},{"start":4135.998,"end":4151.708,"text":"我會認為說直接這樣子目前後職國防實力比較難刮所有的這些大家的需求而且特地去講說國防產業國防自主那後職國防實力這才是我們這個條例應該做的而且這是特別條例啊"},{"start":4152.589,"end":4165.79,"text":"特別條例有些東西如果該常態預算就該常態預算特別條例應該是針對特別的需求才做出預算編列所以我對於這個國防實力我表示我覺得這樣就夠了製組不用加 你覺得不用加好 馬文君委員請"},{"start":4168.099,"end":4186.864,"text":"這個部分我們也是認為因為包括這一次特別條例裡面很多的經費都是用買的所以其實如果把自主加進來反而是自相矛盾自打嘴巴我們後置國防實力其實已經涵蓋比較多它如果我們的國防實力可以增加它的面向是所有的產業它不是單一的產業國防其實它牽涉到非常多的產業包括半導體都是"},{"start":4193.286,"end":4208.105,"text":"所以其實產業加不加進來我覺得這個可能只是為後面要鋪陳而已後職國防實力才是條例制定的根本所以我們希望不要再多加一些可能比較會延伸問題的一些次序台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎"},{"start":4210.496,"end":4229.823,"text":"現在國民黨團希望就直接照剛剛所念的後職國防司令那國防部希望加自主自主司令民進黨團同意但是現在國民黨團有不一樣版本但是顧問長請問一下如果照我第一次剛才所念的後職國防司令以國防部立場來講接受應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":4232.301,"end":4235.104,"text":"接受就這樣嘛因為它還是一個很大的範圍嘛這個不是重點嘛"},{"start":4244.639,"end":4268.613,"text":"我想重點可能會拉到後面的那個深水區裡面看看大家到底是怎麼樣好 我們到深水區再說好不好我們現在連潛水區都游不出去咧先把深水區解決 潛水區自然會解決好 我們就先定這樣 照我剛剛所念的一遍也在各位手上 第一條條文我們就把它通過好嗎好 謝謝我們進入第三條"},{"start":4271.448,"end":4289.924,"text":"我們現在提了第三條民眾黨團提案第三條國民黨團提案第四條有關法律名稱之定義的條文請大家翻到條文對照表第九頁因為本條例法律名稱我們已經通過民眾黨團的版本本條我們是不是就照台灣民眾黨團的提案通過"},{"start":4292.519,"end":4309.624,"text":"請 牛許庭委員請發言主要是提醒一下因為調次啦因為在委員會審查的時候因為國民黨黨版有第三條啦然後其他是沒有的但第三條在委員會的時候是照案通過的所以現在如果通過的話我們就是調次一併處理就是第四條然後部隊辦理經行政院核定採購第五條鎖定項目之裝備啦這樣順下來會比較順一點以上"},{"start":4317.625,"end":4324.211,"text":"我們最後會順這個調適,沒有問題那顧部長要不要補充說明一下如果沒有意見我們就照台灣民眾黨團所通過第三條條文"},{"start":4353.786,"end":4376.781,"text":"第三條應該是國民黨版本就是在委員會的時候我們就有現在就是說要注意的當然就是說現在如果要變成國民黨原來的第三條通過的話這個第四條以外這裡面有一個辦理行政院核定採購的那一個"},{"start":4377.952,"end":4404.783,"text":"第幾條這個可能也要改了就變成要...內文也要改了就變成第五條了我們到最後會議一起再順過來再請再跟顧部長還有各黨團來交換意見那內容部分知道台灣民眾黨團通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見,好謝謝"},{"start":4411.087,"end":4423.218,"text":"我們現在各位黨團幹部我們進入第四條行政院提案的第四條民眾黨國民黨團提案的第五條有關採購項目的條文這一點要請各黨團來踴躍來發言一下那"},{"start":4448.306,"end":4473.032,"text":"行政院的項目比較多麻煩請國安部簡單說明一下我們各黨團跟我們聽一下然後請各黨團準備發言 謝謝行政院版本的第四條民眾黨版本的第四條以及國民黨版本的第五條那這個就涉及到有關這個在條例裡面要如何來寫這個採購的這個項目那麼行政院的"},{"start":4478.346,"end":4501.599,"text":"這個案裡面已經說明就是說在條例跟預算分隔的情況之下條例是在講這個我們要做的一個能力建構的項目所以我們會把它就是單純就會寫說精準火砲遠程精準打擊飛彈等等這七個大類這樣子那麼"},{"start":4502.873,"end":4526.144,"text":"其他的兩個版本都是已經特定去寫到某一個案的這個精確的數字或者是精確的這個案項那就這樣子的一個寫法我想是混淆了條例跟這個預算案的不同所以我們是認為還是要採這個要建構的這個"},{"start":4532.59,"end":4555.637,"text":"能力的項目到底是什麼那這樣子來寫會比較合乎條例的這個寫法那預算會按照這個所要建構的這一個能力項目然後再去提出相對應的預算這樣顧部長講得非常清楚那各位 哈林村委員請發言"},{"start":4557.459,"end":4564.002,"text":"謝謝主席其實事實上我們本週其實也開過了一次的機密會議那麼之前其實也開過了那麼在前兩天這個國防部也針對機密會議當中公開了這一個可以公開的這個版本的強化國防任性及不對稱戰力的執行報告如果在公開的版本我想其實現場的委員應該也"},{"start":4579.329,"end":4593.294,"text":"都可以拿得到他就有針對細部把國防部為什麼列出七大類的原因包括內容那麼其實在可公開的版本當中呢是已經把一些具有機敏性的把它遮蔽掉了那麼"},{"start":4594.534,"end":4602.06,"text":"我相信現場的委員如果需要其實是可以看得到內容的這也是為什麼其實需要召開機密會議給現場的所有的委員能夠了解那國防部其實也把為什麼要用這個方式來先訂定條例因為剛剛承接部長所說的就是"},{"start":4612.008,"end":4640.527,"text":"我們在做的現在是條例而不是預算回到預算的時候我相信這些可以公開的包括數量內容以及我們武器的部分都可以那所以我本席是非常支持就是國防部跟行政院所提出來的第四條的原因是因為其實在這份報告當中為什麼會這樣定然後會是哪七大類其實是非常清楚的所以我認為其實如果我們討論要有效率然後必須要有一個推展的話啦我覺得因為現在"},{"start":4642.489,"end":4660.703,"text":"是公開的 朝野協商那可是這個內容又有部分是機密那我會建議啦就是稍後如果在內黨的委員有什麼意見上面覺得哪些部分不需要的話是不是可以休息一下我已經把答案都講出來我就喊休息好不好好 總統委員請發言"},{"start":4662.444,"end":4690.164,"text":"國民黨團謝謝院長各位協商代表來看一下行政院版的第四條跟國民黨的第五條還有台灣民眾黨的第四條其實台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨你們這種寫法這不是軍購這有點像網購他們在點菜一樣那你行政院的版本它就像譬如說它就講精準火炮還有遠程精準打擊的飛彈無人機載具反系統"},{"start":4691.945,"end":4714.924,"text":"採台灣民眾黨跟採中國國民黨會產生一個問題就是說你這個台灣民眾黨的版本跟中國國民黨的版本就是限制住了你的授權就只有這一些了會變成綁手綁腳了就是說你行政院這個版本我就告訴國人同胞我們要建軍我們要精準火爆遠程的打擊飛彈無人機載具防空反飛彈這些反專甲"},{"start":4716.966,"end":4734.155,"text":"等等還有甚至於人工智慧輔助跟指揮管制通信的部分可是在台灣民眾黨裡面它就是限縮比如說自走炮甚至於跟你講說你只能給我買自走炮60門你海馬仕的部分你只能給我買82套你不能給我買到83套買到83套沒錢中國國民黨的部分你看這個反裝甲無人機的一個飛彈重點就是說"},{"start":4746.409,"end":4769.681,"text":"國防部去跟美國那個地方大家在談我相信這整個整個條例的一個提出來是因應整個國防戰力的一個提升啊尤其是剛我們踩了台灣民眾黨的就為了整個國家安全那我相信國家安全倒不是只有這幾項甚至於把幾門炮都把它放都把它寫出來你寫了62門你寫了82套那如果國防部跟你講說我只要100套啊"},{"start":4773.283,"end":4783.17,"text":"你說你覺得可以62門火炮而已我就算一算 我精準的看過了我不只買62炮那個火炮啊我必須要建置到100套啊所以這個條例的寫法 台灣民眾黨的寫法我認為是不是可以大家再來參考一下國防部 行政院的版本裡面其實是涵蓋會比較廣啦那比較廣就是說授權的部分它變得更完整了"},{"start":4802.867,"end":4821.194,"text":"我們採行政院的版本採取更完整的以後讓他更有彈性以後不是他錢可以亂花喔你到最後還是要送出總預算來嘛你總預算來你送出來你認為說你現階段不需要這麼多的時候再來談嘛那個陳冠廷委員要發言稍微等一下我們先讓兩個黨團簡單二要表達意見之後再請陳冠廷委員發言馬文君委員請發言"},{"start":4829.024,"end":4831.745,"text":"就這個部分因為這個條例我們剛剛通過的是因應敵情威脅還有急迫的國防需要所謂的急迫的國防需要當然我們現在想要儘速通過的就是對美"},{"start":4844.729,"end":4852.573,"text":"軍購的這個部分所以其實他非常明確因為美國的發價書也清清楚楚把所有的品項還有包括說有數量跟金額他也訂出來不過我覺得數量跟金額是可以討論的因為從過去的經驗看來有時候我們覺得太貴可能還可以跟他們再做一些商討或者他的套數如果我們有增加或要減少的必要的話其實都可以討論可是他的"},{"start":4869.322,"end":4872.365,"text":"提供的項目是非常明確的所以我覺得應該要把它列出來這個不會像是網購因為我們看過去我們在採購那個F16V的時候其實他就清清楚楚我們要買66價的F16V所以他很清楚我們到底要買什麼你才不會我們到時候我們現在編的錢"},{"start":4890.939,"end":4894.84,"text":"那時候突然美國因為我們對他是沒有罰則的我們從歷次來看有些我們付了錢或者我們已經有需求的他沒有辦法即時提供沒有辦法在期限內期程裡面提供的時候我們完全沒有辦法所以我們希望就這個部分要比較明確如果你還是模糊的隨便他可以框很多那到時候我們要的他不給"},{"start":4915.546,"end":4933.22,"text":"他給我們是我們不要的或者對我們的戰力沒有很大的幫助的這對我們來說會是損害所以我們還是希望他在這個條例裡面因為我們這個條例很明確就是要通過這樣的預算所以他應該要清清楚楚的把它標示出來好 謝謝馬文靜委員發言台灣民眾黨團發言完畢之後請陳冠廷委員發言來 請台灣民眾黨團表達意見"},{"start":4940.336,"end":4960.317,"text":"這個台灣民眾黨這個版本其實就跟剛剛馬委員講的很類似其實因為現在還是要定一個上限所以我們加一加加一加就跟那天這個網部給我們的專報是一樣它還是有列了一些金額不過國防部這個金額有時候它也會稍微有點不太一樣也許等一下國防部也可以說明一下我們拿到好幾個版本這個有點小小差異"},{"start":4961.318,"end":4982.095,"text":"那另外就是說我想在條例裡面就是我們也許可以不用寫那個就是這個的數量跟金額我覺得我們這邊是應該說OK不過因為今天等一下可能要討論那個金額可能這個部分可能還是會討論到那至於在條例裡面我們是可以把它把那個金額啦那個數量給拿掉好 謝謝你好 陳冠廷委員請發言"},{"start":4982.916,"end":5011.776,"text":"好 謝謝那謝謝王委員你們釋放出來的善意就是把過去不可執行的部分先把它拿掉就是現在有往前走一步但是我還是要再強調也是回應馬委員就是我們的這個行政院的版本裡面其實包含這個無人載具跟其實反制的系統等等的其實這些東西如果我們把它掰過去就是概括進去的話概括進去的話那感覺上是就跟本次的那麼立法的這個要旨也不太一樣嘛"},{"start":5012.516,"end":5032.927,"text":"你要不對稱性那直接要我們的就是無人載具跟反制無人載具的一些措施那其實我們盡量的用比較概括性的方式才能夠確保說未來我們獲得的東西跟我們的數量是我們所希望的那如果只是像之前的這種版本的話那他只是把"},{"start":5033.507,"end":5052.622,"text":"就是如果說我們要升級的話那到時候又要針對這一個法令這一個條例的話會有這個微誤之處所以我們還是希望說以行政院的版本它的概括性是最大那剛才提到的會不會有我們所想要的但是送不到或者不想要的卻送到的這個問題其實條例過後預算的時候"},{"start":5055.325,"end":5075.485,"text":"這一檔完全是可以用你們的這個監督的力道來去執行但是這個條例的部分我們盡可能的要把它蓋過去把它擴大所以我們是希望這個國民黨可以來再思考一下盡量使用行政院的版本或者從行政院的版本如果你們覺得可以再調整的部分來去增加這樣子"},{"start":5076.67,"end":5093.34,"text":"好,那現在台灣民眾黨團同意不把這個數字列進去,那現在只剩下行政院版本跟國民黨團的版本那顧部長你要不要表達一下意見的話,我們就來做一個簡單的宣告好不好,你還沒有要補充的剛剛"},{"start":5100.123,"end":5129.276,"text":"就馬委員講的這個我還是再強調一遍就是說因為這個條例通過之後還是要送預算案進來這我已經一再講過了那所以不可能會是說這個條例通過以後就等於就通過了這個案子那這個案子要買多少的精準火炮譬如說我們已經公開講了當然我們跟美方這邊所談定了那美方也已經知會國會的就是M1A7的自走炮"},{"start":5129.929,"end":5144.225,"text":"那但是你要寫成精準火炮跟M109A7的自走炮在這一點上面其實差異是不大但是下面有一些還沒有能夠公開的部分"},{"start":5145.366,"end":5169.883,"text":"還有這個我們有一些沒有辦法去指明這個部分你就沒有辦法這樣子寫啊也就是說這個體力上的寫法你如果上面是寫某一個什麼東西那下面又沒有辦法全部寫那你其實最後還是要按照我們的這個我是要建議還是按照我們的方式寫那具體的項目"},{"start":5170.836,"end":5183.569,"text":"具體的案項 具體的金額 具體的數量等等再講一遍 還是要送到大院來嘛大院不過 那這個也是不過啊那要過了才有啊"},{"start":5186.248,"end":5190.871,"text":"其實我們可能兩邊最大的差異點就是我們其實主要這個條例要通過的是對美軍購的部分所以其實其他的部分我們不認為說因為他這些相次其實是非常模糊的"},{"start":5212.964,"end":5218.108,"text":"那比如說金準火炮金準火炮川普總統第一屆的時候其實他曾經要賣我們M109A6可是到後來他反悔了他不賣所以我們剩下的錢全部都改買海馬斯他叫他也不退可是我們就是把所有的錢都買海馬斯我們那時候是想要這個自走炮的那他還是會有變動的可能我們現在最大的不同點在於我們"},{"start":5239.843,"end":5251.23,"text":"國中兩黨可能要通過的是針對軍購的部分可是現在不管國防部也好行政院的版本也好他提到的是還有其他的那其他的我們還是希望因為我們強力支持無人載具的發展不管是無人機"},{"start":5256.733,"end":5263.017,"text":"無人機無人艇或者其他無人載具我們認為其實國內都應該要具備這樣的能量可是他不需要放在特別條例裡面他如果按部就班跟經濟部一起合作一起推動我相信我們這個產業其實是可以把它做得很好這個條例我們很清楚的想要通過的就是對美軍購的部分所以其實把它明確的列出來"},{"start":5281.249,"end":5300.917,"text":"就美方已經同意的或者未來可能會同意的我們怎麼樣去把那個重心放在那裡這個才是我們要通過這個條例的一個主要的核心目的所以其實不會有問題那寫的這個部分有些太模糊我們認為放在公務預算會比較恰當好 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6372.617,"end":6381.527,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部,謝謝國防部割裂席單位請坐,我們繼續開始沈破陽委員你要發言,好請"},{"start":6384.814,"end":6409.027,"text":"因為國民黨版的第五條 院版的第四條剛剛有一個新的版本我先講一下 因為我覺得這一條大家的意見要聚焦因為我們在委員會已經討論蠻久了所以我覺得意見聚焦的點大概就只有那幾個而已第一個就是 我們就用最新的第五條的寫法第一個寫"},{"start":6410.988,"end":6427.554,"text":"這個M109A7的這個自走砲然後寫海馬仕等等之類的這就是剛剛在爭執的就是到底要不要把名稱都寫上去這是第一個爭執點那我呢因為今天副總召也在所以呢我覺得因為委員會協商的時候副總召不在所以我想說再溝通一次"},{"start":6428.254,"end":6450.089,"text":"就是傅董昭因為在花蓮一定對這個《馬太安條例》特別的熟悉那《馬太安條例》也是一樣 它框一筆金錢然後要去救災 救災需要什麼也是有項目的那這個也是這個三黨都共同通過的這個條例裡面就寫得很清楚我框了這個幾億元 我是要買比如說農業的機具"},{"start":6452.43,"end":6465.578,"text":"農業機具這四個字就是大方向這跟院版講精準火砲是一模一樣的意思院版第一個寫精準火砲就好像馬太安條例寫農業機具但是馬太安條例裡面不會寫農業機具冒號九寶田M109不會把這個寫上去因為你就是要買農業機具協助光復鄉你農業機具到底是要買哪一個後面的預算案會寫"},{"start":6479.585,"end":6494.079,"text":"所以第一個我覺得聚焦就是是不是就是回歸到本來的願版第一個寫精準火砲第二個寫遠程精準打擊飛彈這樣才對因為從以前到現在中華民國的歷史的特別條例都是這樣寫"},{"start":6495.74,"end":6515.426,"text":"再來第二個就是我們今天要加強我們的國防沒有規定一定要跟美國購買跟哪一個國家購買都可以我們的目的是要增強我們的國家安全是為了不對稱戰力這個是大家前面全部都同意的所以我覺得這個問題我上次問過這一次我覺得"},{"start":6516.306,"end":6543.392,"text":"我就一直希望國民黨看誰能夠回答這個問題就是除了品項寫得不一樣之外現在最主要的是國民黨少了防空系統少了無人載具那我就問如果今天目的是為了不對稱作戰目的今天是為了要加強我們的國防請問為什麼人工智慧輔助的這個防空跟無人載具不需要我覺得回答這個問題就好因為這顯然就是一直把這兩個東西拿掉嘛"},{"start":6543.772,"end":6560.24,"text":"就是為什麼人工智慧輔助的防空這件事情國民黨認為不重要又或者為什麼明明現在那麼多戰爭發生無人載具看起來越來越重要為什麼國民黨覺得不重要我覺得這件事情一旦回答清楚了"},{"start":6560.6,"end":6583.688,"text":"那我們才有辦法繼續往下好 謝謝謝謝沈伯陽委員發言各位黨團幹部還有國安部列席的所有的官員那我想顯然這一條我們沒有辦法達成大家的共識那現在國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團也融合了一個版本剛才也請其他黨團各位來看了一下我想我們回過頭來我們再來討論我們現在先往下一條"},{"start":6585.985,"end":6606.552,"text":"我們往行政院版本的提案第五條我們等一下這個剛剛擱著這個條文的我們在最後還會再回來討論好不好好謝謝我們繼續協商行政院提案第五條民眾黨團提案第五條國民黨團提案的第六條有關經費上限的條文請大家翻到對照表28頁"},{"start":6609.441,"end":6626.817,"text":"有關經費上限行政院版本新台幣一兆兩千五百萬一兆一兆兩千五百億民眾黨團版本四千億國民黨團版本三千八百億各黨團代表要請發言首先請台灣民眾黨團請發言"},{"start":6636.042,"end":6660.299,"text":"行政版本第五條好 這個臺灣民眾黨當初在提這一條的時候是以當初已經公告的這個軍控的項目來進行編列然後再加了800多億的一個彈性的空間那目前臺灣民眾黨這個我們討論的結果也就是因為現在好像有可能會有一些額外的這個FMS的部分"},{"start":6660.939,"end":6675.831,"text":"那也許我們可以邏輯上我們可以在這次的條例裡面先看看再把考慮可以適當的把它加進去不過還是要以最後的能夠確定的狀況才能夠質疑這個所謂的預算以上國民黨團請表達意見好 馬總統謝謝主席"},{"start":6687.319,"end":6697.019,"text":"就這個部分我們一直剛剛也不斷的強調這個部分我們希望就是對美軍購或者在可以提升即使戰力的部分我想這個"},{"start":6698.875,"end":6702.557,"text":"執政黨的委員 省委員剛剛有提到他說我們認為這個無人機或反無人機或者無人載具的這個部分不重要是錯的我們認為非常重要本席是最早 聽我講完本席是最 你才胡說八道啦這個放在公務預算裡面時間暫停 時間暫停好不好 拜託中科院馬委員 對不起請繼續發言 省委員拜託"},{"start":6728.793,"end":6732.886,"text":"我們尊重發言委員好不好你等一下可以發言嘛好不好你先不要"},{"start":6734.659,"end":6739.502,"text":"先不要打岔好不好馬委員請繼續好 謝謝主席首先我要說明一個他們說現在公務預算只有剩下84億的上限是因為我們這兩三年尤其近三年是付款的高峰期包括對美的軍購包括有很多我們自己國防預算裡面付款的高峰期是在這三年可是後面以後就不是84億這樣子的上限所以這個部分不能誤導這是第一點"},{"start":6762.876,"end":6769.363,"text":"第二點如果我們每年都可以編的常態公務預算既然認為這麼重要而且無人機無人艇無人載具這是迭代在發展的你應該在我們的公務預算裡面而且我們中科院已經研科研或者我們自己去自主研發或者去製造的至少已經20年了"},{"start":6786.76,"end":6806.066,"text":"這些相關的技術或者我們應該採買的我們不會沒有任何的一個方向所以他在公務預算如果覺得重要早就應該編了為什麼那時候沒有這樣做這個反而應該要問問自己所以如果說現在特別預算放不進來就說大家不重視這更錯"},{"start":6808.027,"end":6811.969,"text":"尤其他們現在的產業發展 產業發展其實經濟部才是最內行的我們國內的所有的產業 科學園區各方面的產業園區做得非常好其實是經濟部我們怎麼樣讓我們自己會的量能 比如說中科院或者我們其他國內"},{"start":6830.8,"end":6834.602,"text":"自己有的一些相關技術去結合經濟部整個整體產業的發展這才是我們國內應該要推進的無人機無人載具這樣子的一個進程而不是隨便想說放在這裡然後你到底要買什麼之前說買20萬架現在突然又變成30萬架那你到底是怎麼去估計的我們看不出來所以如果只是為了要一個數字那對我們的國防的"},{"start":6859.155,"end":6877.612,"text":"傷害其實反而會造成更大的影響所以我們才說就可以在立即通過的部分不要把那個未確定的因素把它放進來這樣會很清楚如果真的有必要你另外再用其他的特別條例不是只有一次而已啊我們過去在買F16V的時候其實是2019年吧"},{"start":6883.016,"end":6885.599,"text":"2020年我們馬上就通過另外一筆國防特別預算特別條例就是海空戰力提升我們製造飛彈還有造船隔年就馬上就編拉所以根本沒有這樣的問題你今天如果要及時讓我們可以在軍購上面更順利可以很快的讓這個條例還有這個預算可以進行應該要把它分開來"},{"start":6908.44,"end":6929.954,"text":"這個部分再一次強調 省委員說我們不重視或不在乎這是錯的馬委員現在你跟太多情緒被省委員干擾了重點是你現在這個預算金額你到現在還沒有表達你的最關鍵的意義還是我們等一下再來討論我們下一輪你發言再說 好不好好 民進黨團請發言"},{"start":6932.833,"end":6943.988,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位協商代表其實大家應該聚焦啦現在就是說你的總預算以這個軍國條例裡面你的上限現在院版的國防部這邊是801.25兆那國民黨跟民眾黨啊"},{"start":6948.934,"end":6963.287,"text":"其實我聽到現在你們就其實就已經進入到深水區這個是核心中的一個條文嘛就大膽的講嘛你們本地開始為三千五到三千八到你們的盧市長八千一"},{"start":6963.968,"end":6967.81,"text":"那我看黃國昌台灣民眾黨的黨主席你們又出來開一個記者會說你們那個藍白你們說得好啊你們的方向然後一致就8千億叫你們現在版本裡面也又4千叫你們說要多少也滴滴嘟嘟說不出來所以喔"},{"start":6981.721,"end":7004.197,"text":"我們這整個條例裡面喔我們是在審這個條例啊那你們本來是講說發架書來了喔啊來了我再來 大家再來 日本人再來創一個軍購條例我們一直在講說這樣子反不及及 失去了一個彈性那 既然你們昨天釋放出來的訊息是說你們的方向是八千那你現在到底是要多少 你的社會有什麼我們在這個地方喔我們為什麼是強調說支持院版的1.25兆"},{"start":7011.551,"end":7039.623,"text":"兩年多的時間我相信這個不是國防部閉門造局啦反而各個政黨裡面為什麼去講說當有一點你們把軍購把它當成是網購人家數字到底是怎麼來的可以這樣變來變去然後隔了今天你們今天講的又跟昨天又不一樣了行政院 國防部他認為很委屈他整個建軍的一個計畫裡面也不是我們自己去盤整而已一定是跟美國嘛"},{"start":7040.815,"end":7044.48,"text":"大家還在那邊悄悄地說說看我們要買多少對整個國家的安全才有夠其實我認為是應該明確地表達台灣民主黨你如果不說 國民黨你如果不說這樣不太會說下去"},{"start":7055.28,"end":7077.843,"text":"這樣才會說下去 我們這個整個條文就是第五條在講的就是一個上限啊要上限大家用喊價的 喊完又不...我們不曉得要相信誰講的啊國民黨已經提過太多版本了 從3500到3800然後到8100 到昨天台灣民眾黨的主席 你...你像王委員 你這樣不就等於你主席亂講"},{"start":7080.513,"end":7101.219,"text":"我記得看了我剛看了你去把它寫一個黃國昌八千億就是你剛才說的啊你說藍白方向不是共識但是是一致的方向這也都是你們自己講的啊那到現在呢你們的版本是什麼這樣沒辦法協商嘛我們不是在護航我們就要我也一直在追 追出說國防部今天行政院你提出這個八年的1.25兆你是怎麼來的我們就"},{"start":7105.64,"end":7111.706,"text":"他也來解釋啦 人家也跟你們說 你買什麼 專報給你們知道 變預算會比較好變結果你們不來 現在跟你們說 到底你們要多少你們又再說不出來 這樣要怎麼說事情好 謝謝 那個范委員跟陳冠廷委員尖短二要發言完畢 我們請國防部說明好嗎好 范委員請"},{"start":7127.746,"end":7146.596,"text":"因為現在也是到關鍵的那個錢嘛那我想對我們來講就是1.25兆不能打折因為從剛剛的項目到這的話那看起來至少很明確的藍白的這個共同的版本也是集中在軍購只是有一點進展你們拿掉了對美"},{"start":7147.096,"end":7173.167,"text":"那可是我們國防部一直都說還有商購及偽製那我想很多人可能聽不懂什麼是商購及偽製那其實就是我們剛剛所講的包含就是自主的國防產業無人機產業那還有一個就整體來講的話AI系統的建置也不在你們這裡面就是我們講的這整個多重的防空的系統的建置那剛剛"},{"start":7174.927,"end":7193.532,"text":"馬雲軍委員一直在說你們沒有反對無人機等等講經濟部我想既然你們沒有反對的話那告訴大家經濟部跟國防部的角色非常的不一樣那我們現在要講的是我上次在委員會中已經說了連經濟學人都告訴大家無人機在"},{"start":7194.372,"end":7222.182,"text":"他懂得重要現在都是Made in China中國做的所以非紅供應鏈非常重要台灣的產業很有競爭性可是受訪的產商都已經說了擔心藍白反對也就是說為什麼不能放在平常的預算因為特別預算才有經費完整預算規模跟可預測性你有長期大量的訂單國內廠商才願意投資建立產能我們才能打造非紅供應鏈"},{"start":7223.322,"end":7242.414,"text":"所以我想這個部分除非你們反對這個目標否則你的那個錢數就是做不出這個部分那只剩下軍購那其實我們所講的商購偉智三者不能缺一喔那這非常的重要那他沒辦法用年度的預算來處理謝謝好 謝謝范議員今天我們請"},{"start":7243.454,"end":7267.125,"text":"陳委員請發言 郵委員請準備好 謝謝院長那我們簡單來回覆首先第一點就是說在我們至少我自己的選區嘉義的民雄航太園區裡面對我們來講這一個我們能夠有自主的國防產業是非常非常極端重要的那剛才提到的這些我們各種你說軍購也好 偽製跟商購也好那從最基本的來講其實我們上一項上一個條目裡面就有含到台美合作的部分"},{"start":7267.785,"end":7284.301,"text":"台美合作的部分如果這樣子的話我們如果生產的是在國內的生產但是其中核心的科技是其他國家或者是美國的話那請問這個也不把它包含嗎那我們跟國民黨主要的不同在野黨主要的不同就是自主這個部分"},{"start":7284.921,"end":7303.029,"text":"那這一次不在野黨的這個要求是主要是軍購就是外購那我們要的還是自主的能力自主國防 你說自立自強啊自強不行 這不是也是以前這個很多這個國民黨的委員們中華民國自強不行要自立自強的自立自主的這個部分嗎"},{"start":7303.869,"end":7321.018,"text":"所以我們一直在強調說無人載具跟反無人載具的裡面它必須不能夠只靠外購我們這一次看到這個中東的戰爭已經非常的明顯了那一些中東國家比較富有的國家大量的跟美國採購防空系統武器無人載具的國家"},{"start":7321.798,"end":7345.859,"text":"在面臨到其他敵情的威脅的時候 伊朗也好沒有辦法迅速的從外面的拿到資源所以自立自主的國防產業是非常重要的對無人載具來說也是如此 特別是無人載具我們沒有辦法依靠 只依靠外援然後來去滿足我們無人載具的需求所以為什麼我們要有特別條例也是如此那當然 馬委員說要把它放到每年的年度預算"},{"start":7347.08,"end":7370.389,"text":"我還是要強調 因為我們的這個新型的軍事投資 那每年的預算是有限的那在這個國防部的報告裡面 不管是機密還是非機密的報告都很清楚的有寫出來大概最多就是多84億那只有84億元的話 那你怎麼樣去扶植國內自主的產業我想這個是我們比較擔心的部分 也希望說政業黨的委員能夠來去支持"},{"start":7371.429,"end":7387.314,"text":"針對中小企業因為我們要在民雄航太園區要做很多的商務的這些徵詢他們所最擔心的就是不敢開產線為什麼不敢開產線他不知道明年還有沒有這個軍事的需求而所有特別是無人載具它的主要的需求來源就是來自於國防啊"},{"start":7387.634,"end":7412.893,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望說在野黨的委員能夠主要來去思考一下這個部分那特別是中部的產業其實跟無人載具也有直接的關係所以也希望陳總長能夠 想想看台中因為你們有很大的這個工業的基礎所以對台中人來講無人載具是極端重要的那必須要把這個遇上上限能盡量的往上來提高好不好 我們往這個共識去走好 謝謝 紐西林委員請發言 沈博洋委員請準備"},{"start":7414.173,"end":7435.222,"text":"謝謝主席這個面對一場協商大家總要預判一下協商的氛圍走向還有最後這個法案到底要用什麼樣的方式來處理如果有機會要達成共識互相保留一些善意我覺得總是有必要的這也就是為什麼在在野黨的各種版本裡面有各種不一樣的數字我希望大家是用一個保留空間"},{"start":7435.862,"end":7464.441,"text":"大家可以各自求取共識的大方向來看待這件事情但剛剛我們聽民進黨代表的幾個發言甚至就講到他們都非常堅持1.25兆的時候那很有可能的政治處理的空間就通通被壓縮掉了嘛那你在其他人那裡去講去考試說你這個數字很多到底是哪一套的版本那不也就失去意義了嗎我覺得大家要靜下心來想一想我們到底要怎麼解決現在這個僵局吧而如果還是大家只是留於立場的表述甚至是情緒性的發言那我想對於協商達成共識就不會有任何的幫助了以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":7465.362,"end":7486.456,"text":"好 謝謝 尤其是委員我們什麼要問請那我乾脆接續剛剛牛委員的發言就是說因為現在這一條最主要是討論金額我先講一個技術性的問題就是因為剛剛國民黨已經提出一個新的這個第五條然後他把幾個跟公務預算有關的不是移走了嗎那他移走的話那他現在這一個的金額是不是要"},{"start":7487.409,"end":7514.456,"text":"是要重新試算嗎還是什麼之類的我覺得這是一個技術性問題嘛對不對因為既然這一條我們要討論金額的話那再來第二個呢我想要提的事情就是說為什麼剛剛我們有提到1.25兆不能打折因為它是一個package我講個非常簡單的例子也順便回應剛剛那個馬委員講的假設我們今天要買防空的武器但是我們不買防空的系統這不是很奇怪嗎對不對就是你手跟腳都有了但是你不要那個大腦"},{"start":7515.676,"end":7529.481,"text":"如果有去機密會議的話應該就可以知道那個大腦也不是佔那個整個預算有多少但它就是一套的啊就是說你不可能你買了這一個可以偵測的然後你不買發射的或者你買了發射的不買偵測的結果你不買可以啟動的這一定就是一組的嘛"},{"start":7532.942,"end":7549.01,"text":"這就是為什麼1.25兆很難打折的原因是因為它是一整套的不對稱戰力的設計剛剛也有講說我們很關心剛剛毛委員也有提到也是關心國內的產業發展這個剛剛冠廷委員也提到國內的產業發展無人載具看起來是非常重要的一環"},{"start":7550.771,"end":7570.257,"text":"古人載具如果你沒有一定的這個年限你沒有辦法去刺激那個產業在各地不管在台中在嘉義去蓬勃發展所以這就是為什麼1.25兆我們覺得它是一個package非常重要的原因以上我們請國防部顧部長發言完畢以後再請馬文君顧部長請表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":7571.488,"end":7599.278,"text":"所以我簡要回應幾點第一點就是說剛剛馬委員也提到的就是說未來兩三年是我們護款高峰期那我們也報告中裡面也提到的就是說我們每年能夠有軍事投資的這個金額扣掉了持續案之後能夠新增的新增項目的軍事投資的金額是有限的那我們也跟委員有做過報告後續我們並不是把所有都放在特別預算案"},{"start":7601.021,"end":7614.87,"text":"我們後續的新政案包括華氏的天建二型、天空三型的續購、陸設建二的反攻飛彈的續購熊二熊三的反攻飛彈的續購還有相關的包括夜視鏡、跑花刀搶救設備等等我們總需求有高達700億"},{"start":7617.401,"end":7634.026,"text":"所以我們本來就是在規劃就是說我們的年度預算應該也有一個適度的成長但是我們會考量整個行政院一種整體的總預算會不會因為年度預算產生了一個排擠而"},{"start":7635.026,"end":7649.302,"text":"造成我們沒有辦法將這個我們希望的行政案項納入這個年度預算而因此一直在等這個不斷地在遞延那所以因為這樣子所以才會有希望有一個特別預算那現在"},{"start":7652.103,"end":7677.749,"text":"這個國民黨的委員他有一個論點意思就是說我們只要軍購的不需要偽製跟商購的但是剛剛馬上也提到了我們海空戰力特別提升的那個案子裡面其實全部都是偽製案也就是說是屬於國內偽製的案子所以國內的偽製的案項不能夠說不重要比如說我舉個例子來講我們在公開版本事實上也提到了就是說我們航空的部分我們也特別提到我們需要這個"},{"start":7682.75,"end":7700.415,"text":"這個高高空的一個攔截的強攻飛彈那這個部分也擺在我們的特別預算案裡面那這個跟其他的部分有做搭配那這個部分在整個經濟專報裡面有做過一個完整的一個說明那麼再講一下就是說"},{"start":7702.458,"end":7718.365,"text":"有關這個我們有一些就是說它這個一照2500億大概這個規模是如何形成的它整個其實是跟你每一個它所形成的這個作戰的運用它是一個整體的規劃"},{"start":7719.645,"end":7743.166,"text":"它整體的規劃不外就涉及到兩件事情一個就是不對稱戰力的形成一個就是防衛任性那這兩個把它成為一個主軸讓我們來把每一個案項做一個完整的一個說明那按照現在國民黨跟民主黨所提出來的第五條修正案的結果那這個五項事實上只涵蓋了這個美國已經知會國會的這幾個案項"},{"start":7746.809,"end":7770.323,"text":"如果這幾個案項加起來,如果你就限這五項的話那事實上這個金額是相當有限,也就是大家已經都認知了大概110億美金的那個金額那這個金額顯然是不足以涵蓋後面可能再有的金額那我們還有也整個完整的去說明了"},{"start":7771.075,"end":7784.775,"text":"我再舉一個例子就是說無人載具的這個部分像那個太平洋司令Papalo已經講得非常清楚無人載具的重要性他已經一再的強調這一件事情不是我們要"},{"start":7786.797,"end":7808.666,"text":"單純的國防自主而已而是我們整個防衛作戰需求的一個重要的部分那如果沒有建立這樣子的一個國防自主的產業從俄武戰爭看來我們完全沒有韌性可言嘛那所以這個是環繞在這個地方更何況是強調就是說為什麼國防部作為一個最大的需求單位有必要要借這個特別預算的規模預算經費穩定的來源然後能夠編列之後讓"},{"start":7815.8,"end":7829.457,"text":"從事這個產業的人有信心另外我要特別強調一下大家要注意到我們在機密專報裡面一再的提到台美共同研發及採購合作裝備系統這個部分這個部分也要請務必要考慮在裡面"},{"start":7831.311,"end":7856.317,"text":"我很希望有來聽我們這個完整規劃的委員應該可以理解這個一照2500億是怎麼產生出來的這件事情除非你要具體的認為是說我是建議用刪去你如果能夠講你認為哪一個不重要你要把它刪"},{"start":7859.281,"end":7865.319,"text":"如果基於表決最後的立場你把它刪掉我們沒有意見啊但是如果按照現在"},{"start":7867.132,"end":7889.219,"text":"我們的立場一定還是堅持一照兩千五百這是我們的立場那如果你們的立場是認為你要刪掉那你要刪掉你要刪掉什麼項目你必須要有一個有一個講法嘛假設你因為你刪掉那個項目就表示我們不能編那個預算嘛對不對所以你要刪掉兩個項目你要先有一個前期確定而不是在喊一個價格喊一個價格之後"},{"start":7890.239,"end":7918.006,"text":"那項目呢如果按照這第五條現在交給我手上的這個項目那我想這個金額那就是110美金的部分的金額這裡看起來就是這個金額因為只有這五項已經智慧國會的這個項目這顯然我覺得我們"},{"start":7920.109,"end":7947.042,"text":"沒有辦法能夠接受我們沒有辦法能夠接受那我只是一再的就是說我們經濟專報裡面講得非常的清楚一照兩千塊是什麼出來的我們希望能夠獲得一個全部的支持個別的預算項目拿到立法院來再由立法院審議立法院審議認為這不應該要編入這一個特別預算自然還可以砍掉嘛對不對那我們還是堅持我們是有整體的規劃的那特別條例的部分我們整個能力建構"},{"start":7947.742,"end":7951.087,"text":"是完整的 希望大家能夠支持這樣的完整的能力建構"},{"start":7964.712,"end":7986.401,"text":"首先我回應一下國防自主不是今天有特別預算編列的時候或者特別條例要通過的時候才有的這個已經講很久了國防自主大家都非常重視不管是我們自己的飛機潛艦還有我們所有的彈藥大家都說國防自主我們講了很久而且我們也持續在做除非我們否定了"},{"start":7986.721,"end":7999.511,"text":"之前大家所做的國防自主的努力或者我們認為它根本沒有效果不然我們一直以來都在做國防自主這是第一點第二個很重要的話如果像我們剛剛提到有這麼多這麼重要包括我們的無人機無人載具這麼重要的話我們今年的國防預算是有史以來最高的可是這麼重要的東西卻沒有放進公務預算到底是為什麼"},{"start":8013.001,"end":8020.246,"text":"他把公務預算到底編列了哪些是排擠了這些現在一直叫在野黨說你們覺得哪些不重要要把它刪掉你當時覺得那麼重要為什麼你沒有把它編入公務預算而反過來問我們說哪些要刪掉我們怎麼知道哪些應該是輕重緩急這個是應該國防部去做評估的另外還有剛剛有提到說我們的防空武器跟防空系統這個都要一併的去考量"},{"start":8039.679,"end":8045.862,"text":"我們看到這一次美方同意的這個軍售的項目不管是M109A7我們之前就自走炮還有海馬式還有這個反裝甲型的這個無人機飛彈系統然後托式飛彈跟標槍飛彈這個我們過去都有買所以不會現在突然讓它要增加賣給你的時候你才有系統的需求以前就應該要有"},{"start":8068.191,"end":8070.192,"text":"所以為什麼是這些都已經買過而且剛結案而已那個托士飛彈跟那個標槍飛彈一個是前年一個是去年剛剛結案我們都有買現在只是增購他又多賣給我們那你當時為什麼沒有想到系統你現在要做特別條例要通過的時候你才說這個系統很重要那以前都在做什麼"},{"start":8091.147,"end":8114.232,"text":"你都沒有做然後都沒有考量嗎我們的軍事的預算本來就是五年的建軍規劃你本來就應該想到啊所以就這些部分我們覺得當你在說自主的時候請大家思考看看我們最近一直提到彈藥的部分我們看到美國包括他自己去打伊朗他兩天打掉他一年的彈藥量"},{"start":8115.652,"end":8118.815,"text":"我們本來熊系列的這些飛彈也是號稱甚至美國都做不出來可是我們當時說因為我們的產能不足所以我們編了大筆的預算還用插隊的方式去買了魚叉飛彈就是因為他說我們做不了"},{"start":8133.55,"end":8153.316,"text":"所以當時買了魚叉飛彈那今天也是啊你在這麼急的情況之下你說彈藥其實是非常重要的這個如果是國防自主的話為什麼最近編了那麼多的預算是外購的這個反而是國防部應該要解釋清楚的如果你應該要國防自主的話到時候彈藥我們的需求量才是大的"},{"start":8155.917,"end":8175.842,"text":"這個部分為什麼我們自由產線我們以前都能做的我們現在花大錢不斷的外購當你說自主的時候應該要先把這些解釋清楚好謝謝我想這一條我們就不再討論我們回頭我們先保留起來回頭我們在二樓再來討論顯然還沒有辦法達成共識我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第六條我們第35頁第六條"},{"start":8186.935,"end":8191.736,"text":"34頁台灣民眾黨團我想請民眾黨團有關收支規劃財務計畫的條文請提案的台灣民眾黨團請發言好嗎34頁你們所提的現在第6頁第6條吧"},{"start":8205.802,"end":8219.922,"text":"那我們的版本第六條吼那就是以本條例籌編的這個第一期的預算應該考量本條例實行期間我國人口前景結構變動的因素的影響省省規劃"},{"start":8221.824,"end":8247.281,"text":"收支的額度及中長程的財務計畫衡量國家稅率負擔的能力以營運高齡化及少殖民化對變略預算的財政衝擊最主要我們是考量我們的特別預算對我們預算的一個衝擊的一個因素 以上好 謝謝臺灣民眾黨人提案黨團 陳孟漢文請發言"},{"start":8250.656,"end":8268.253,"text":"這個第六檔當時有討論過所以我就簡要發言即可就是說因為從剛剛的脈絡順下來我會發現其實為什麼是公務預算什麼是特別預算我覺得好像有些人大家是不是那麼清楚不然的話按照剛剛很多發言就是全部都變公務預算也就可以了我覺得這是不合理的"},{"start":8268.373,"end":8288.281,"text":"沒關係我們到二輪您再發言但是因為第六條這一邊因為第六條這邊呢他講的是你要顧慮到比如說人口結構啦中長城規劃啦但是就是因為顧慮到這些所以才訂特別條例啊如果今天我們都全部用公務的話就會擠壓到其他預算嘛什麼教文啊這個這個衛福啊等等之類的"},{"start":8291.182,"end":8314.85,"text":"就是因為顧慮到這件事情所以才訂特別條例所以簡單來講第六條就是把為什麼它是特別條例重新寫一遍但是因為它就是因為特別條例這個寫跟不寫其實是一模一樣的這就是為什麼要訂特別條例的精神這也是可能在剛剛很多討論的時候大家一直講公務跟特別可能就一直搞不清楚這兩個的分界民進黨團隊這個第六條沒有意見嗎"},{"start":8317.35,"end":8345.888,"text":"應該沒有意見嘛這第六條沒有增加的必要性啦那個國民黨團請表達意見好嗎 第六條 台灣民眾黨團所提的沒有意見的話我們就沒有必要性有有有 他說他已經規劃了 主席總統都已經有回覆我只是請教國民黨團請表達意見謝謝 我會認為這第六條編的其實利益相當良善因為的確不管是一般預算還是特別預算 錢就是錢那國家的預算本來收入就有限"},{"start":8346.448,"end":8375.316,"text":"那如果說不去 如果說當然啦我們知道國際情勢的毀絕多變但是如果我們沒有在說這個比例上面有一定程度的捉捏 拿捏的話其實對於整個全國國民跟所有事情的支出跟福利其實蠻不妥的所以我覺得這個放在裡面我覺得這是件好事三個黨團 請請主席總書 請表達一下報告院院長還有各位協商的那個立法委員因為"},{"start":8376.56,"end":8397.362,"text":"這段的文字在行政院所定的中央及地方政府的預算籌編原則這個原則是根據預算法第32條的授權行政院定然後文字完全一樣就是說行政院現在所定的中央跟地方政府不是只有中央中央跟地方政府的預算籌編原則"},{"start":8399.253,"end":8415.194,"text":"完全跟這個文字一樣所以現在在編預算其實都有考慮到國家各方面的需要那八年1.25兆一年就是1563億那我們總預算跟特別預算一年大概3.4兆"},{"start":8416.736,"end":8443.874,"text":"所以佔的比例事實上是不高 主席總署國防部提出來這些的時候 主席總署在衡量國家資源的使用是政府可以負擔的政府會考慮到少子化 老人化各方面還有淨零轉型各方面的需要在預算籌備原則裡面都訂得很清楚所以基於這個其他特別條例也都沒有這些文字而且現在已經在實施了所以是不是可以不用列進去"},{"start":8448.797,"end":8472.335,"text":"我想第一個在講說籌編第一期預算我並不清楚這個第一期預算講的是什麼意思這是第一個文則問題第二個剛剛主席總書已經講了就這一個條例本身應該是在總預算籌編的時候要去考量的不是這個特別條例本身要去考量的特別條例已經在前面的"},{"start":8473.629,"end":8495.846,"text":"院長已經擱這第五條裡面我們已經提到了他的總量這個舉債的合計數不可以超過總預算跟特別預算稅主總額的合計的15%然後一年期以上的公共債務法 會員或創業者也要依公共債務法第五條第一項辦理所以他已經依照公共債務法跟相關財政紀律法規定已經做了一個考量了"},{"start":8496.366,"end":8509.077,"text":"在這一個部分有關政府要如何去衡量這件事情在特別條例裡面不應該再加上這樣子的一個條文因為加上這樣子一個條文等於就"},{"start":8510.754,"end":8526.866,"text":"去否定了我們前面我要編的8年一照2500億的一個意旨嘛因為這個是屬於主計總署在整個編制行政院甚至包括中央預算包括地方總預算的時候要去考量的一個事項嘛蔡總長您發言請民眾黨要加這樣子其實就是一句話"},{"start":8540.089,"end":8566.725,"text":"好但是為什麼好但不要編呢就是說因為如果這樣寫可以這樣寫如果要繼續這樣寫的話那本席作為立法院聯合國永續發展策進會的會長我應該要請他們編列預算的時候也要注意對環境的衝擊然後呢那個范雲委員對於這個性別他也可以寫進去其實大家都可以寫因為這是籌編原則啦"},{"start":8569.486,"end":8593.419,"text":"國家在編列任何特別預算或預算的時候他籌編原則裡面他就會告訴你一定要注意這個財政會不會排擠啦對財政的衝擊啦所以我的意思是這樣就是說如果民眾黨覺得你們對於少子化跟高齡化這兩件事情特別重視那本席給你一個建議就是說這個你可以做一個附帶決議啦來凸顯說本黨對這件事情特別care"},{"start":8599.461,"end":8609.552,"text":"否則的話這樣的條例我們每一個條例其實那你把籌備原則都要放到以後其實任何的條例都應該只要牽扯到錢都應該加這一條"},{"start":8611.204,"end":8632.746,"text":"所以本席才會建議你不是說不對啦就是說做了這件事情可以做那因為要凸顯可能是民眾黨的這個你們特別care特別關心特別重視那本席建議你就是說不用在條例裡面你可以做一個附帶決議我想大家都會支持嘛本席一開始就跟你說好就你做附帶決議本席一定"},{"start":8633.769,"end":8636.27,"text":"要求民進黨團全力支持這個附帶決議好 謝謝蔡總召陳慶榮 陳總召您同意嗎我這邊補充我們會增加這一條 絕對也是有我們的一個考量那就像剛剛"},{"start":8649.597,"end":8675.062,"text":"蔡總長講的預算資源就有限大家也知道這樣的一個特別條例的籌編未來預算也會排到其他預算我們擔心的也是社福預算那我們台灣民眾黨也一直表達說這個特別條例通過之後我們有要求國安部要每年做專報"},{"start":8676.542,"end":8694.572,"text":"那預算也是原則上就一人一邊嘛這個部分包括在行政總統都同意那這樣的一個過程就是整個在八年期間啊我們根據我們這一條的一個原則啊我們可以來請我們國防部"},{"start":8695.572,"end":8709.12,"text":"對於做專報的部分及預算一年一邊的一個情況有所一個依據這是我們增加這一條的一個最主要的一個原則我在這裡做這樣的一個補充改為附帶決議您同意嗎 陳總召我們就不用條文了就不入法了 我們改為附帶決議好嗎"},{"start":8732.686,"end":8747.918,"text":"這個有連動嘛 有連動那我們剛剛把我們這樣的原則已經署名進行即使這個不影響我們剛剛保留我們那個深水區的部分那我覺得這個是我們"},{"start":8748.938,"end":8773.107,"text":"也是我們台灣民眾黨一直表達著這是專報跟預算的一年一邊這樣的一個原則我在這邊是不是既然協商嘛大家要善意這個不影響未來的一個八年的一個進度我們就把它這個留著好不好這個就不要陸在意見了好不好今天請國民黨團徐政委員請表達意見"},{"start":8773.743,"end":8797.034,"text":"我想今年的就是我們的國防預算9000多億已經是史上最高而且再加上特別條例1000多億其實已經上兆了再加上這次的軍購特別條例未來還有支出非常多所以確實我們認為是有必要就是要審慎的規劃這個財政的收支跟財政的計劃以這個確保我們財政的一個健全所以我們是認為這條應該是要保留"},{"start":8799.054,"end":8822.005,"text":"我們現在沒有辦法達成共識我們這一條條文先保留我們等一下再來討論我們現在主席我只是想提醒一下好 顧部長請這個文字不管怎麼看都怪怪的以本條例籌編第一期預算時要考量所以籌編第二期的時候就不用了他的意思是這樣子啊這文字怎麼看都不對嘛那如果你是要講的話應該是說政府籌編預算時應考量那我覺得這句話"},{"start":8828.195,"end":8856.39,"text":"我講的白一點這叫多此一舉因為你這個寫跟沒寫一樣嘛所以你要你如果你至少你現在講說政府籌編預算時應考量什麼什麼什麼那那這樣是這樣有這樣規定我是覺得特別條例的預算他已經已經已經考量8年的這一個那個相關的這個"},{"start":8859.703,"end":8885.143,"text":"已經考量了所以這個文字我真的沒有問題我們現在回頭還要現在保留第三條條文起來了我們回頭再來討論接下來我們進入行政院提案的第六條民眾黨提案的第七條國民黨團的第七條預算執行及審計這個要請各黨團來代表發言首先我們請國防部做個說明法務部請準備"},{"start":8891.13,"end":8904.741,"text":"這六條我們想就是依照向來特別條例的一個慣例我們就是會寫清楚說預算的執行審計機關應依法來辦理審計那依法來辦理審計所有相關審計應該適用的規範就已經規範在這裡面了所以我們是覺得應該是這樣子寫就可以了法務部吳烈協代表請發言好嗎請表達一下意見謝謝"},{"start":8922.037,"end":8935.45,"text":"國民黨團請準備主席 各位針對民眾黨版第五條的第三項我們提供部分第七條國民黨版"},{"start":8943.769,"end":8947.23,"text":"那針對第七條預算執行的這個監督問題那關於政府機關執行預算的監督考核還有責任的追究這個在審計法上現行的審計法上已經有完整的這個規定了那我們"},{"start":8969.656,"end":8991.011,"text":"依據這個審計法的規定機關如果執行預算有違法失職或者是執行績效低落的話那審計機關依照審計法就可以移送檢察院來這個調查處理那國民黨版第七條的第三項第三項是規定"},{"start":8992.628,"end":9015.339,"text":"如果有違法失職的這個情形導致執行績效低落的話應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院來調查懲戒那我們依照監察法第六條跟第八條的規定監察院追究對象彈劾的對象是違法失職的人"},{"start":9016.072,"end":9042.085,"text":"那我們第三項草案第三項是規定違法失職有這種情形那被移送的是機關的首長跟這個主管機關這個相關的主管那我們認為這樣的規定跟審計法還有監察法的規定有不相這個不太契合的地方那這個呢我們提出來請參考關於這個事項目前"},{"start":9045.714,"end":9074.515,"text":"院版的跟民眾黨版的規定它的用語是審計機關應依法審計這是一個版本那國民黨版第七條的第三項是規定有剛剛講的這個問題大概目前有這兩個方案那如果是依據這個院版的還有民眾黨版的"},{"start":9076.364,"end":9082.291,"text":"審計機關依法審計等於是回歸現行的審計法去處理那如果是"},{"start":9083.855,"end":9106.736,"text":"國民黨版第七條的第三項如果是要往這個方向走的話那我們是建議應將執行機關首長及相關主管這一句話是不是可以考量可以拿掉因為大前提因為公務員違法失職他已經界定了這個違法失職的公務員"},{"start":9108.271,"end":9131.489,"text":"本來就不限於他的成績跟角色他當然包括首長跟相關主管如果首長跟相關主管沒有違法失職那就不再被移送的這個行列裡面另外依據監察法的規定監察院調查處理的結果那就是彈劾"},{"start":9133.308,"end":9152.888,"text":"也是要向懲戒機關那至於是不是懲戒必須要由懲戒法院依司法程序來審理所以我們最後這邊移送監察院調查懲戒那懲戒權是在懲戒機關所以這個部分如果要採用這個版本那建議的是移送"},{"start":9154.452,"end":9166.66,"text":"監察院調查處理就是參考審計法的規定那這樣會跟監察法的規定會比較相合以上謝謝法務部的說明謝謝我們請提案的黨團民眾黨團請發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":9171.352,"end":9190.038,"text":"有關於民眾黨第七條行政院版的第六條我們寫的要比行政院版要更清楚一些些除了依法要辦理審計之外我們大概對流用的部分有做了一些特殊的規定必須要經過立法院同意"},{"start":9190.778,"end":9212.174,"text":"那另外就是借滿錢那時候我們在委員會協商的時候大家好像問題也沒有什麼太大的意見那最後一個就是軍工的部分我們這個第三項跟第四項就是軍工的部分因為我們在委員會的時候其實有一些專家有一些意見所以我們也願意把這個部分暫時把它拿掉就是軍工的部分第三項跟第四項以上"},{"start":9218.097,"end":9219.098,"text":"我們接下來請國民黨團請表達意見提案的國民黨團"},{"start":9239.741,"end":9261.421,"text":"沒有關係你可以稍微等一下沒關係請莊惠雄委員發言國民黨團請準備好謝謝主席如果按照我個人看沒有第六條也沒有關係的因為你本來你公務機關你花了預算你去執行完以後你審計機關你本來就第一個你就必須要依法去做審計嘛第六條"},{"start":9262.742,"end":9286.415,"text":"不管是行政院的提案啦,而且當然是行之如宜啦不然其實大家不用去爭執這一條啦那第二個啊,那個各個,你看台灣民眾黨跟中華國民黨裡面所提到的說主管機關你去依照預算法第63條去辦理流用的時候應該經過立法院的同意這一點就又有一點侵害到行政權"},{"start":9287.435,"end":9300.187,"text":"你如果說按照預算法63條的話你那個科目有剩餘本來就可以有留用這其實是我們立法院的授權啦我們通過了一個法令但是它其實是有額度的啦20%而已啦20%而已啦所以其實我倒認為這一款這個寫來63條這個你也不用計高第三個"},{"start":9310.612,"end":9315.217,"text":"就有一點縮小了7月31號監察委員全部都已經卸任了那我們這邊在審條例的時候大家其實是有點看不起監察院的監察院你不用這麼貼面 沒辦法你過啦國民黨我們也不推薦 民眾黨也不推薦然後在第一輪的時候搞不好就全部把它殺掉"},{"start":9329.634,"end":9355.001,"text":"檢察院就變空的啊我們現在反而在條例裡面又賦予它好像又一個 喔 好像是一個非常清高的一個位置那遇到什麼事情之後立法院就說 來 檢察院趕快來上環保證給牽下去 給抬下去這個有一點點又怪怪的啦所以我的意思就是說三黨再考慮一下這一條其實不用爭執啦我們就叫那個行政院辦分就好了啊如果真的沒有 你整條三條都三檔的"},{"start":9359.802,"end":9385.225,"text":"請證院板的 國民黨的 台灣民眾黨的全部都砍掉 我都認為這個意義也沒有很大啦以上說明 但是就行李如雨的就院板這樣提條例上我們一般本來就是這樣的一個規定其實是無傷大雅啦 謝謝謝謝莊委員那國民黨的暫時可以緩和一下 先暫緩一下我想請那個各黨團還有國安部聽一下我的意見就是"},{"start":9386.884,"end":9404.021,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團所提的第七條上面所列的我們保留下來到第三項把它刪掉轉為加美會期向立法院提出專案報告用這樣方式我來念一遍大家請仔細聽一下陳慶榮總召麻煩你要聽清楚喔好 謝謝"},{"start":9405.722,"end":9434.779,"text":"本條例所列的預算之執行應依下列規定辦理一審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條流用前應經立法院同意本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院那美惠其向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":9436.969,"end":9451.309,"text":"這樣可以嗎?有啊,我們有啊,流用前應經理法院同意這邊都有啦但是問題是我們預算法的規定本來就是可以流用20%的範圍裡面"},{"start":9453.7,"end":9468.475,"text":"最後我們這邊加一句 美會期軍相立法院提出專案報告我想這樣就符合剛才王嘉祥 王委員所提出來也符合蔡總召說沒有關係 先這樣 大家先看一下 不要急著發言這樣可以不可以接受"},{"start":9472.747,"end":9484.614,"text":"這個流用的部分可以請那個主計總處說明一下這個部分會造成的影響好嗎當然可以當然可以當然可以好請請請發言報告院長各位那個"},{"start":9485.789,"end":9511.945,"text":"預算法第六三條就是規定流用剛剛有委員提到就是用途別的科目如果有一個科目不足因為你是一年多前編的所以有百分之二十可以流用的空間但嚴格規定不能流用到人事費那個預算法是這麼規定總預算在執行的時候每人現在已經將近三兆還有其他特別預算在執行的時候"},{"start":9512.645,"end":9539.666,"text":"都有流用的彈性嘛因為你不可能在一年多以前遇見未來所有的那個科目啊不會調整變動嘛所以只有在這個現在這個特別預算條例啊才規定這個比總預算比其他特別預算還嚴格這個我覺得在那個不成比例啦不成立法的那個比例啊所以您的意思是說不同意台灣民眾黨團這個版本"},{"start":9541.82,"end":9546.402,"text":"這個部分我們不同意因為這個不是一般的預算它是特別條例你本來就是針對特殊的一些項目你才編列這些特別條例跟特別預算所以你如果在一般的常態的預算裡面你如果不足的時候你會有20%的流用"},{"start":9565.229,"end":9568.591,"text":"那是因為其實讓我們可能在推動的時候不要自愛難行可是這個部分其實它是很明確的所以如果你要留用的過程當中因為你這個是非常態的那你經過立法院同意的編列的特別條我們通過的特別條例或者這樣的特別預算如果你要留用"},{"start":9586.641,"end":9604.458,"text":"他跟我們說很重要又是對國防國家安全是非常重要的如果你要留用照理說你就應該經過立法院同意如果他是合乎常理而且是必要的我覺得立法院不可能不同意所以這個部分我們還是要求這個不可以隨便留用"},{"start":9607.882,"end":9627.938,"text":"陳慧琳委員請發言因為我看國民黨的這個版本裡面沒有應經立法院同意他是寫上立法院提出報告那是不是比較就報告就好因為在同意的話好像有點立法行政的這種分立好像就有點被"},{"start":9629.499,"end":9639.667,"text":"行政權被侵害到所以是不是國民黨你們說的專案報告即可一定要我覺得經過立法院同意這個好像不符合常理那也不符合剛才講的履歷原則"},{"start":9643.541,"end":9671.658,"text":"因為這個在委員會有做過討論我想我們可以這樣子我們融合這個國民黨黨跟民進黨黨的版本第一個就是說第七條的第一項還是可以列本條例所列預算執行審計機關應依法辦理審計這是第一項第二項我們就納入這個國民黨黨人的第一項主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計畫執行並將執行進入及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告這是第二項"},{"start":9672.619,"end":9701.681,"text":"好 第三項這個主管機關集體就是國民黨版的第四項主管機關及以上機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保公安預算確實投入戰略建構這第三項然後第四項就是加入民眾黨團的第二項本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關因究其實施成效作成總結報告並送立完約這樣就融合了融合了國民黨版跟"},{"start":9702.711,"end":9706.995,"text":"民眾狼煩了這樣子沒關係 部長請繼續我剛剛的建議是這樣子部長現在端了一個八寶飯出來了大家有沒有什麼寶貴意見我們這邊也是覺得"},{"start":9721.764,"end":9738.487,"text":"一點點稍微複雜就是說我們納入了國民黨版的第一項 第二項 第四項然後再加民眾黨版的第二項國民黨是堅持不得留用"},{"start":9752.835,"end":9769.453,"text":"來來,我們在這邊一清一調,院長不好意思啦,我這邊還是要表達我們最重要還是一個有用的這個原則嘛那應景立法院同意,其實就像剛剛我們專委員講的"},{"start":9773.378,"end":9786.349,"text":"我們也了解預算法它可以用 基本上一定會同意那我們會增加這一條就是因為特別條例我們如果能夠協商成功我們要購買的品項 購買的這些設備品項"},{"start":9792.133,"end":9809.241,"text":"基本上都是很精準的啦基本上都是很精準的所以也不用去擔心這個流用藥劑立法院同意會變成一個阻礙那當然我們部長很用心把民眾黨版本跟國民黨的版本把它合併在一起"},{"start":9813.763,"end":9832.129,"text":"但是我還是認為剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個修正的內容我覺得就是已經是最妥適的我們可以來接受剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個版本"},{"start":9833.109,"end":9855.729,"text":"沒有關係 我們現在讓我們秘書處這邊作業人員先做把文字先打出來給大家看一下現在有A跟B A就是我剛才所念的B就是顧部長剛剛擷取不同黨團之間大家所在乎的意見 把它文字化的處理好 總共AB兩個版本 請大家參考一下你先給第一個 你改那個"},{"start":9863.253,"end":9881.05,"text":"因為大家在參考 所以我表達一下意見其實剛剛青龍兄你剛才說的預算法講這個流用 大家日日半年 新規預算很久了 大家知道流用其實它也沒有亂用"},{"start":9881.971,"end":9884.313,"text":"比如說反而流用大家不要去誤解這樣的一個名詞反而流用來講的話你那個整個總預算來講總Total你根本就不會去任何的一個增加流用也不是你要用到哪裡就是用到哪裡去"},{"start":9897.726,"end":9910.011,"text":"這個同一個工作計畫裡面底下甚至於你那個除了剛剛那個主計總署剛才你們說到的不能留的人事費用這個部分其實連你資本門都不能留到經常門裡面去所以這一些其實是很專業的東西本地留用的部分本地就有20%20%預算法我們也要通過"},{"start":9922.935,"end":9950.472,"text":"你現在特別軍國的部分 特別條例裡面你又跟他講說你那個流用的不可以再經過日本人的一個通過這個其實都有一點在我看來其實都沒有必要啦所以你們才會講說有需要根本就不會刁難什麼大家會講到這個地方我是很中性的在談這個整個流用所以因為院長剛好提的是兩個版本嘛所以我想說這個大家其實不用那麼堅持啦我就再一次把流用它真正的一個意義啊來供大家做一個參考 謝謝"},{"start":9959.27,"end":9976.875,"text":"謝謝好 我們先保留起來我們等一下文字作業完發下去我們再來討論我們現在開始繼續往前我們現在進到國民黨團提案的第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文請大家翻到第38頁麻煩請提案的國民黨團請發言"},{"start":9993.091,"end":10008.639,"text":"就這個部分我們在考量到不管是對美軍購其實那時候一直有提到美方可能也會陸續有同意出售一些相關我們"},{"start":10010.16,"end":10026.703,"text":"有一些武器裝備等等那我們也希望說在這裡可以讓國防部可以有比較大的運用的空間所以特別提出本條謝謝國民黨團為了國防部著想來 顧部長你先表達一下意見 甄列第八條我已經在說明了 他現在說等到還有發駕輸我們就要"},{"start":10035.683,"end":10054.826,"text":"再提一個特別條例,然後再提一個特別條例以後,等特別條例通過以後再提一個預算從這一次拿到發價書的期程上來看,這明顯是緩不濟急而且這也不符合我們過去計劃預算的概念因為我們過去就是說在得到美方的供售的意願之後,我們就馬上提出預算案"},{"start":10055.447,"end":10075.217,"text":"那都是在這個還沒有知會國會前我們就可能送出那沒有知會國會前我們就採機密預算的方式知會國會之後就公開預算這個本來就是要讓立法院有一個機會來審查這個預算案不管是總預算還是這個這個特別條例預算應該都是採如此的精神嗎"},{"start":10076.296,"end":10094.657,"text":"所以說他再另外提一個特別條例,就等於這個條例裡面的金額實際上就只有他們現在所提的第五條這樣的一個金額了等於就沒有任何加恩的概念存在在這裡面了所以特別條例也就是又涉及到"},{"start":10095.798,"end":10114.212,"text":"這個第五條沒有辦法這樣訂我瞭解,那就只有暫時保留,反正第五條那現在請大家回過頭來看看剛剛手上所發給各位的我們回到行政院所提的第六條台灣民眾黨團所提的第七條"},{"start":10122.912,"end":10145.935,"text":"我們順過條次,現在變成A、B兩個版本,到第八條,條次已經順好了A就是本條例所列預算之執行,依下列規定辦理,一審計機關,依法辦理審計二,主管機關預算法第六三條,流用前應經理法院同意本條例施行建版之日次年五月底前,主管機關應就"},{"start":10147.556,"end":10161.921,"text":"其實是成效做總結報告並送立法院美惠及向立法院提出專案報告這就是陳慶榮總召剛剛所提的我嘗試性的跟大家報告再來就是B版剛剛顧部長所提的融合了不同的黨團之間的意見第八條這條有好幾個黨團"},{"start":10166.263,"end":10182.735,"text":"的想法都在裡面請大家仔細聽一下本條例所列預算之執行審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會即向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":10184.574,"end":10213.01,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日4年5月底前主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告並送立法院那請各黨團表達一下意見現在顯然是A版的第二條是有爭議的"},{"start":10214.278,"end":10216.1,"text":"關於流用這個部分,或許我們不會去流用"},{"start":10230.498,"end":10247.559,"text":"依照我從一個法律人的角度來看就是說預算法63條它本來就是授權行政機關如果說我們在這裡創下一個先例要經過立法院同意的話其實是有一點違背了立法預算法63條的授權原則其實是有違反權力分立原則的部分"},{"start":10249.241,"end":10269.577,"text":"這個我只是,當然這不應該是我,我應該要講我光復的立場,但是我還是稍微,事實上因為你如果種下,我覺得如果說立了這樣的一個例子,以後說大家同意的話那這個流用要經過立法院同意這件事情,事實上是超越預算法63條的立法本質"},{"start":10278.037,"end":10289.792,"text":"我們為什麼會有這樣流用的一個定債協議最主要就是國防部過去有一個應該不太好的一個範例"},{"start":10291.033,"end":10313.212,"text":"那之前我們立法院曾經針對國安部的預算同意他去買F16的一個戰機的預算結果我們國安部把他有用去買內雷劍那這些事情其實當初立法院也不曉得"},{"start":10314.453,"end":10325.607,"text":"就是因為金額很龐大6月20%那個金額是很龐大的所以他會去明明我們立法院同意他去買A"},{"start":10327.199,"end":10344.018,"text":"他說過流用他去買米是有這樣的一個案例有這樣的一個案例所以我們這一條的一個流用為什麼會一個願意在這裡是因為他們有過去的紀錄"},{"start":10349.053,"end":10367.222,"text":"謝謝院長針對這一條的話其實國民黨是很堅持就是因為其實既然大家對於軍購的條例這麼的重視所以我們認為執行力絕對不能出問題所以在這個過程中的話一定要有責任追究的相關問題尤其是我們希望就是說當執行成效低於核定進度的50%的時候要將"},{"start":10369.103,"end":10383.035,"text":"執行機關的首長請相關主管移送監察院調查的原因就是因為目前懲處的都是基層人員真正下指令的跟真正做決策的首長跟相關的主管都不會受到懲處所以針對這一條公共黨團是認為應該要我們堅持要用這樣的一個版本"},{"start":10387.879,"end":10416.201,"text":"我嘗試先來再把A、B兩個版本再融合一次大家來聽聽看好不好先不要急著發言再等一下針對我再把它組合一下大家再來表達一下意見就第八條這邊如果大家各黨團幹部同意公安部也同意的話本條例所列預算之執行應依應該依下列規定辦理依審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條辦理流用前應經立法院統一"},{"start":10417.162,"end":10420.586,"text":"下面就接剛才國安部顧部長所提的"},{"start":10422.588,"end":10444.606,"text":"第二項主管機關依依專案列管及考核本條例第三項主管機關及上級機關依依依法執行監督第四項本條例施行屆滿至五月底前實施成效及做總結報告送立法院這樣我們就把A版跟B版融合起來然後留用的部分也照國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團的意見"},{"start":10448.169,"end":10466.299,"text":"放在這邊一起來併在一起這樣大家有沒有意見我想這應該我們已經請示過我們已經也請教過法治局意見這都完全沒有完全沒有權力分立的問題我們這邊表達得非常清楚可以把留用部分我們保留起來林沛祥委員請發言"},{"start":10468.082,"end":10488.103,"text":"報告主席我們認為說針對這個案子因為我們過去有太多的經驗有關執行部執行進度不到位的狀況所以國民黨黨團要求有關送監察院審查送監察院懲戒的事情我們必須保留在第七條"},{"start":10489.485,"end":10505.303,"text":"第七條國民黨的版本做到第二頁的時候有關監察院 送監察院審查有關執行進度不夠的時候因為剛剛區域政委員剛剛有提到說目前因為執行進度不佳而去被檢討的通常都是比較基層的承辦人員那你這樣子"},{"start":10506.484,"end":10534.603,"text":"林書長這樣的話就沒有辦法再談下去因為AB兩版本來想請大家看一下如果你一定要再回到監察機構那個保留的第三項的話這顯然大概要沒辦法打成共識囉大家是不是要思考一下也許我剛剛把AB兩版融合起來大家應該都能接受吧發言人您不要急著發言好不好稍微等一下大家能不能接受AB兩版融合起來這樣可以的話我們就確定"},{"start":10535.745,"end":10558.556,"text":"好嗎如果你現在堅持監察院審計機關的話這個我們談不下去這個肯定沒辦法談是不是大家能考量一下我們就照我剛才最後一次所宣讀的那樣子可不可以副總統請發言謝謝院長北齊一直不想發言"},{"start":10560.441,"end":10585.307,"text":"不過這個是也是非常重要的一個核心的問題為什麼是一個核心的問題就是為什麼會用特別預算就是非常迫切非常急切要來實施尤其在國防這個方面所以呢各個政黨都是基於我們國防的要求然後坐在這裡"},{"start":10586.94,"end":10611.834,"text":"透過取債的方式而不在我們年度預算裡面編列透過取債的方式來提出這一份非常特殊的特別預算但是這個特別預算執行了以後我們必須要強調因為每一個因為就現在大家協議要通過的條文裡面"},{"start":10613.14,"end":10639.473,"text":"只是考核 最後考核往往都是基層人員被考核我們以現在所發生的情況來看現在目前立法院已經通過了預算 錢已經付了那執行到現在還有7000億的武器沒有進來所以這個執行率是非常的值得商榷"},{"start":10641.124,"end":10670.24,"text":"而我們不希望在三黨大家共同為了我們國防要求需求的情況之下共同來這裡協議通過的這樣的一個特別條例結果最後在執行方面呢確實讓整個國人來失望所以必須還是要有一套究責的機制我想今天這個不管我們是執政黨或在野黨我相信這個都是很有必要的"},{"start":10671.195,"end":10700.04,"text":"我想今天如果這個民進黨在演的話他一定會非常強調這個一定要入法我們換位思考這是一個最基本的一個監督的機制那如果這個監督機制啊把它拿掉了以後那到底未來這麼重要迫切的一個特別預算他的責任承擔跟究責機制到底在哪裡"},{"start":10701.943,"end":10725.355,"text":"不過我在這裡啊我把國民黨立場講得很清楚這是當時我們提出這個條例這一條第八條的內容是因為是這個情況那我想過去民進黨在也提出了零零總總我們就不一一贅述啦從這個獨豬獨牛啊還有很多零減豬講到現在"},{"start":10728.581,"end":10739.586,"text":"那我想當時的要求是如何而我們現在都不予追究但是最重要的這是國防安全的部分絕對不能沒有究責機制我想這個部分我們要應該理清"},{"start":10745.15,"end":10768.586,"text":"現在在手上,各位現在新拿到就是我剛剛所唸出來的融合不同政黨之間大家所在意、重視的,把它併在這個條文那現在國民黨團又提出來還是要堅持它原提案的第三項但是法務部剛才廖參事也表達了一些不同的意見所以我在這裡,我在思考是說"},{"start":10769.967,"end":10781.693,"text":"如果各黨團能夠同意這個合併的條文我們這個條文就確定了如果不能同意的話我們就必須要休息大家再來寫上來我再來唸一下大家再來看一看好不好"},{"start":10784.687,"end":10811.198,"text":"第八條本條例所列預算之執行應依下列規定辦理依審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關依訴法第六三條流用前應該經立法院同意這個就完全符合國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團的要求在主管機關應立專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行及進度績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":10812.538,"end":10841.467,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日四年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院我想這個應該大家各黨團可以接受吧如果可以的話我們第八條副總長請發言主席我覺得這樣子"},{"start":10842.642,"end":10865.307,"text":"因為剛剛特別清楚國民黨團必須把我們提出條例這條當時我們提出來的主要的意旨必須要說明清楚說明清楚但是基本上基於意識和諧我們還是尊重主席的才智好不好好謝謝那我們第八條如果大家沒有意見我們就通過了好嗎沒有沒有沒有院長其實我要再講一下"},{"start":10867.025,"end":10893.576,"text":"因為我擔心大家誤解預算法63條我流進跟流出流入跟流出本來就是20%為什麼預算法立法院要這樣一個規定就是說我不要讓你增加預算我在總預算我們在編總預算一定是這樣子我在編總預算一定是編下一次的比如說我今年我就編明年的"},{"start":10894.136,"end":10897.038,"text":"我就先編完才給你開 你預算也63條的規定是在跟你講說我在同一個工作計畫底下 你這項目我20%流入跟流出的就是只有這20%裡面這個本來就是立法院我們要求人家這樣子的"},{"start":10910.206,"end":10915.991,"text":"行政部門 你要做事情 你要開支 有存的 就存這幾十% 流入流出 沒人要扯回去幾十%那我們現在又這樣的一個規定裡面 因為一個個案其實就會把過去會顛覆掉整個預算163條所謂流用的一個規定所以大家想得太嚴肅了啦這一條不用這樣的一個規定喔"},{"start":10934.845,"end":10940.168,"text":"本來其實莊瑞雄委員已經講了,但本席因為副總召剛剛也講了,所以本席也要表達一下民進黨的立場"},{"start":10959.653,"end":10985.569,"text":"公務人員依法行政所以我們的預算法第63條規定20%的流用這個叫做法律那國民黨立場認為救責很重要其實本席完全同意啦我不覺得救責特別是這麼重大的這麼大筆的預算本席也覺得救責很重要但是其實如果救法論法比較好的方式應該我們要修預算法"},{"start":10986.673,"end":11011.419,"text":"因為監督很重要救責很重要其實不只在這個問題上面但是如同副總召剛剛所講的因為我們的重點如果今天我們在野的這些委員好朋友們如果你們能通過1.25兆的預算說實在話救責很重要特別要他在20%不是說不能用你要用之前要先來要留用之前要先來報告"},{"start":11012.785,"end":11040.495,"text":"其實我們可以為了這一個1.25兆本席也願意為了和諧然後來支持啦但是立場上我們還是跟副總長要說清楚啦就是國家給我們監督那如果我們覺得20%是不對的那朝野應該提預算法的修法譬如說改成15%改成10%或者改成說都不行以後要留用都要來立法院民脂民膏嘛所以這個才是邏輯的一貫性啦"},{"start":11041.175,"end":11068.867,"text":"但是如同剛剛副總召所講特別條例然後國民黨很重視所以如果能夠過1.25兆讓國家的安全得以守護得以保障其實對 我們也願意雖然我們的立場要說明清楚但我們也願意在院長的指示底下來同意好 謝謝蔡總召我們等一下回頭再來到金額部分好 我們現在進入國民黨團所提案的第八條第二階段特別條例的條文請大家放到第38頁"},{"start":11078.271,"end":11098.905,"text":"我們第八條條我們就先保留我們現在進入最後一條條文了行政院提案的第七條台灣民眾黨團提案的第八條國民黨團提案的第九條有關私刑期間這一點大家意見似乎不太一致我們請各黨團來發言首先我們請國防部簡單扼要說明 謝謝"},{"start":11103.01,"end":11108.871,"text":"廣布提出8年依照2500億,按照我們能夠籌獲的期限分攤到8年,一年大概1560億左右大概是這樣子預算的規模分散在8年的期間在編制的過程"},{"start":11129.81,"end":11146.785,"text":"在編制相關的預算過程當中,都考慮到相關我們籌貨所需要的時間以及交易的期程等等所以希望大家能夠支持,就是八年的期間好的,謝謝台灣民眾黨團也有提案,請表達意見"},{"start":11149.98,"end":11166.748,"text":"我們的一個內容是我們的第八條我們原則上跟我們行政院環部的提案是一樣最重要的差異就是本條例及其特別預算施行期滿"},{"start":11167.848,"end":11187.745,"text":"未及執行部門必要時我們是得經立法院同意延長之行政院的院版是必要時得經行政院核定延長那我們就是立法院 法院同意好 謝謝國民黨團對台灣民眾黨團所提的經立法院延長到122年有沒有意見要表達"},{"start":11196.638,"end":11224.97,"text":"沒有意見我們就同意台灣民眾黨團的話我們就確定了謝謝院長我們還是要特別強調啊這個國防部顧部長啊一直在講啊因為我們也靜靜聽了兩個多小時顧部長不斷強調啊會來不及會來不及啊竟然這麼急迫那怎麼會我們通過了以後用這麼長的時間去買"},{"start":11229.592,"end":11255.222,"text":"所以我們在這裡是建議啦是建議啦應該應該總統任期到2028年所以117年我們已經到12月到12月應該而且特別我要把我很少引用賴總統講的話2027台海救危機啊所以要迫切的趕快通過這個條例啊"},{"start":11256.994,"end":11284.153,"text":"那我們總不能說在123年武器台來那怎麼面對116年的太海危機所以這也是蠻耐人尋味的事情所以那既然有這麼迫切應該是我們也這麼急的來審查甚至我這裡再回應一下這個顧部長剛剛所提要說會來不及我們就把立法院實際發生的狀況"},{"start":11288.258,"end":11312.197,"text":"當113億美金的第一批發價書進來的時候立法院立刻三黨同時簽字授權國防部副部長直接跟美國政府簽約在條例還沒有制定以前預算沒有編列時間先授權你來做對美國的直接的簽署只要有明確的發價書"},{"start":11313.697,"end":11342.236,"text":"我們就會授權來簽署而且這是已經剛剛執行完畢所以所有關於時間上來不及的問題我想啊這個應該是有相當的誤會啊因為在看到這個期程啊到一百二十二年跟我們剛剛從兩年討論到現在都很急迫都很急迫然後最後發現是一百二十二年一百二十二年31號所以啊"},{"start":11343.877,"end":11357.167,"text":"本席在這裡 但是我還是回到原來那句老話我尊重主席的才是我想簡單回應一下 因為剛剛國民黨委員有講到說如果國防自我這麼重要 為什麼是過去沒做好嗎那無人機這麼重要 年度國防運送為什麼沒有放"},{"start":11368.795,"end":11390.026,"text":"還有這些武器過去都有買為什麼是現在突然有系統需求我簡單講一般軟硬體每年都會常態性的採購了那同時幾年也都會大升級更何況國際情勢的變化國防科技的日新月異那國防部已經告訴大家這個站立的整件事持續性的工程"},{"start":11390.606,"end":11409.422,"text":"所以要讓敵方攻台時間他的準備不斷延後所以我們想國防部不管誰當部長這整個對國防的維持讓敵方不敢攻台是重要的所以必須要多年期除了台灣之外歐洲日本很多的國家都在這麼做"},{"start":11410.103,"end":11432.414,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 那國安部我們現在這個我們就照台灣民眾黨團的版本通過那就是本條例 就是說因為這個是執行期限這執行期限包括比如說現在已經公開了海馬斯多觀火箭飛彈系統82套的部分執行的期限它交易的期程都要 台灣民眾黨團跟國安部一樣啊"},{"start":11433.755,"end":11459.973,"text":"對啊 我只在說明這是在講整個執行的期限不再講我們什麼時候簽署發價的期限好的好的那各位黨團如果同意的話我們這個就叫台灣民眾黨團所提的版本第八條條例後面就是經立法院同意延長之好不好好 我們現在休息一下回過頭再來探討保留的四條條文大家辛苦了我們休息一下"},{"start":11467.597,"end":11467.859,"text":"阿斯修錫"},{"start":12326.9,"end":12355.425,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席官員也請坐我們繼續開會我想要跟各黨團幹部報告一下也跟今天列席的官員報告一下我們本案已經經過充分的溝通還有四條保留的條文包括項目以及經費那我想各黨團之間在這個兩個重大問題上顯然沒有辦法達成共識我希望各位黨團能夠繼續保持溝通我們下星期一下午"},{"start":12357.229,"end":12371.534,"text":"兩點半我們繼續召開朝野協商要拜託各位黨團幹部能夠如期參加也謝謝國安部顧部長跟各位列席的官員我們今天我們就下禮拜一下午兩點半繼續開會現在散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:07:12.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:07:22.346000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，還有幾位關心的牛煦庭委員、馬文君委員、徐巧芯委員、黃建賓委員，\n還有陳冠廷委員，我們熱情歡迎。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:07:22.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:07:54.688000+08:00","text":"我們今天要繼續協商軍購特別條例草案，在這裡再一次介紹\n今天列席的重要閣員官員，我們首先歡迎國防部顧部長，以及國防部所屬列席的官員，熱情歡\n迎；財政部國庫署陳署長，歡迎；經濟部陳副署長，歡迎；法務部廖參事，歡迎；還有數發部\n、衛福部、國家科學及技術委員會、公共工程委員會，所有列席官員大家午安，非常歡迎。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:07:57.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:08:06.303000+08:00","text":"所有列席的黨團幹部，我們今天要繼續進入逐條討論，開始進行第一條的逐條討論，好嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:08:14.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:08:22.170000+08:00","text":"有關立法目的，現在有行政院、民眾黨團、國民黨團的版本，我想請各黨團輪流發言，台灣民\n眾黨團先提出的，請發言好嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:08:27.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:08:35.207000+08:00","text":"第一條，謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:08:36.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:08:37.648000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:08:39.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:09:27.481000+08:00","text":"關於軍購的特別條例，我其實也代表台灣民眾黨對外表達過很多次，一直\n以來台灣民眾黨的題目就是「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例」，我們為因\n應中共軍事的威脅、持續的擴張，及為建置可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力的武器裝備，應\n用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力，以提升聯合作戰的效能，確保國家安全，來制定這個條例。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:09:28.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:09:36.628000+08:00","text":"所以台\n灣民眾黨一直以來支持我們國防自主的立場都沒有改變，這裡再一次說明，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:09:36.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:09:37.869000+08:00","text":"上次國民黨團牛煦庭委員有意見，但因為休息了所以沒有發言，今天請繼續發言。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:09:45.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:09:59.773000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，上一次反正是名稱的問題嘛，果然馬上不幸命中，上次講了希望淡化政治\n色彩，大家針對法條的本質跟內容來詳細闡述就好，當然就被場外的委員無情攻擊。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:09:59.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:10:35.200000+08:00","text":"但我想該\n講的話還是要講，我想了一個方法大家參考一下，因為現在三個版本文字各有落差，後來我回\n去找了一下過去幾次我們國防的特別條例，包含戰機、強化陸海空特別條例等等，它的寫法是\n這樣的，「為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要」後面是「建置可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰\n力……」，所以我就用「為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要」，這個跟過去行政院各個提出來\n的版本文字是一模一樣的，沒有政治色彩，我覺得比較有機會，所以拋出來看看有沒有機會讓\n三黨達成共識。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:10:35.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:10:36.222000+08:00","text":"以上供大家參考，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:10:36.222000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:10:39.337000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:10:39.337000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:10:42.452000+08:00","text":"國防部要補充說明嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:10:42.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:00.829000+08:00","text":"國防部跟上次協調時候的說明是一樣的，就第一條部分，重點是在於國民黨的版本只\n限於透過對美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備與相關服務採購。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:00.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:22.021000+08:00","text":"就這一個部分，我想我們整體\n協 2\n的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例，應該不只限於美國政府的軍事裝備及相關服\n務案的採購，所以再請各位朝野委員能夠斟酌這個部分。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:24.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:25.190000+08:00","text":"謝謝顧部長的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:26.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:29.332000+08:00","text":"民進黨有沒有要補充說明第一條的立法目的？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:30.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:33.255000+08:00","text":"請莊瑞雄委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:33.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:36.256000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，還有在場所有的協商代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:37.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:11:52.065000+08:00","text":"你看上次的軍購條例，最後我們採取的名稱是\n台灣民眾黨的，其實大家都尊重台灣民眾黨，你們的跟行政院版哪有什麼不一樣！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:11:53.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:12:32.759000+08:00","text":"以第一條來\n看的話，我看大家也不用再這樣糾結了，其實前面都幾乎講得差不多嘛，你說因應中共軍事威\n脅持續擴增，台灣民眾黨也跟行政院的提案一樣；國民黨認為要叫做因應國際情勢變化，這個\n範圍好像比較寬了，好像說對臺灣的威脅除了中共以外，還有其他國家對臺灣會有軍事上的脅\n迫，這個是深謀遠慮、看得非常遠，這也是一件好事。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:12:33.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:12:45.584000+08:00","text":"但是我們其實是在聚焦，我很不客氣地\n講，第一條乾脆就寫四個字，我都可以這樣講，「保護臺灣」都一樣，這四個字其實就幾乎都\n可以含括。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:12:46.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:03.479000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，各政黨是不是也尊重國防部，如果你認為第一條行政院院版，\n他哪一個地方沒有把你的涵攝進來，來改這個，我們糾結在這裡才比較有意義嘛。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:04.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:11.965000+08:00","text":"否則院長你\n看，第一條其實是各個政黨文字敘述不一樣而已，涵意、精神幾乎都是相同啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:12.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:20.130000+08:00","text":"我看今天氣氛\n也很好，大家坐在這有心要幫忙解決問題，我們第一條是不是可以不用糾結？","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:20.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:32.137000+08:00","text":"都差不多嘛，精\n神意義一樣，除非你認為國防部提出這個案子文意不通，國防部好像都沒有念書，字寫得比各\n黨團都不好，那我們就不採他們的。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:32.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:40.422000+08:00","text":"不然如果大家覺得可以、精神差不多的話，是不是可以按\n照行政院版本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:41.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:43.724000+08:00","text":"第一條不是深水區，這只是一個精神而已啦。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:43.724000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:45.891000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:45.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:48.058000+08:00","text":"馬文君委員請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:48.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:13:49.079000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，大家午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:13:49.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:14:04.817000+08:00","text":"就第一條的部分，剛剛牛委員也提到，我們過去其實有兩次特\n別預算是針對國防預算的部分，如果說因應敵情威脅，我想這個可能大家都可以接受，因為我\n們過去也是這樣寫。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:14:04.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:14:06.558000+08:00","text":"另外，在國民黨黨團提案裡面有特別提到，因為我們現在很希望在有限的\n預算底下，怎麼樣去確保我們武器的獲得，或者相關設備、武器裝備的獲得，其實是比較有保\n障的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:14:06.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:14:44.956000+08:00","text":"因為像最近也發生，可能我們一開始覺得是跟美國合作，可是後來卻是拉脫維亞提供合\n作，在中間如果有這樣子的變化，對我們的獲得其實是不太有保障。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:14:46.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:14:56.125000+08:00","text":"再加上我相信所有的委員\n都非常信任美國以及美國政府授權體系的軍事裝備以及相關的服務採購，這個應該沒有問題，\n所以我們認為這個部分應該要把它加進來，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:03.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:10.810000+08:00","text":"馬文君委員還是回到牛煦庭委員所提的，為因應敵情威脅，那如果回到牛煦庭委員的建議，\n台灣民眾黨團跟民進黨團有意見嗎？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:10.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:10.970000+08:00","text":"牛委員請。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:19.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:20.462000+08:00","text":"主席我補充說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:21.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:26.224000+08:00","text":"我自己提出來的 idea 是前面改成剛剛那一句話，大家都知道\n嘛，後面我是用民眾黨的版本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:26.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:30.605000+08:00","text":"但當然如果國民黨黨團對於要不要把美國加進去，我們就再商\n量一下。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:32.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:38.967000+08:00","text":"我只是丟個想法拋磚引玉，讓大家集思廣益，目標還是達成共識，我希望這一條可以\n趕快進行完畢。以上。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:45.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:15:56.742000+08:00","text":"我的建議，我們在上一次協商的時候，針對第一條名稱的部分是採取台灣民眾黨黨團\n的提案。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:15:58.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:16:11.030000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團的提案在名稱有寫到對美軍事採購，所以在第一條必須寫到「對美」，不\n然我覺得跟我的名稱上不太合。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:16:11.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:16:36.552000+08:00","text":"但是因為現在名稱是採用台灣民眾黨黨團的提案，所以我的建\n議跟牛煦庭委員比較相似，我覺得因應中共軍事威脅，他當然是其中一個，但我們今天要厚植\n國防實力的理由有很多，包含我們整體第一島鏈上面可能的軍事威脅，其實都是我們要提升國\n防整體性能的一環。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:16:37.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:16:47.481000+08:00","text":"所以中共軍事威脅是一種，但是整體國際情勢才是真正能夠包含我們整體\n要強化防衛韌性跟不對稱戰力的主軸。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:16:47.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:07.815000+08:00","text":"所以我的建議跟牛煦庭委員一樣，就是說我們是因應敵\n情等等的，就按照過去特別預算的寫法，後續我覺得我們可以在這個部分不要花太多的時間，\n就同意台灣民眾黨團的版本，這樣的話，我覺得名稱跟第一條也比較能對得上。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:10.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:21.604000+08:00","text":"換句話說，就是台灣民眾黨黨團第一條「因應中共軍事威脅」這六個字拿掉以後，改為「因\n應敵情威脅」？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:21.604000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:22.604000+08:00","text":"「及迫切國防需要」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:21.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:23.405000+08:00","text":"「及迫切國防需要」，其他都不變。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:23.405000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:26.460000+08:00","text":"其他照民眾黨的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:26.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:28.401000+08:00","text":"這樣的話，台灣民眾黨團、民進黨團有沒有意見？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:28.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:28.982000+08:00","text":"如果沒有意見……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:30.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:48.116000+08:00","text":"本來我是蠻支持巧芯委員跟牛委員的意見，我跟他們只有小小的差異，就是應該用行\n政院版改牛煦庭委員的意見。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:17:48.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:17:56.642000+08:00","text":"如果一定要用民眾黨的版本改，我希望民眾黨的版本一定要加進\n「厚植國防產業」這個段落。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:18:01.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:18:07.893000+08:00","text":"你就把國民黨的尾巴接上去了，行政院的頭、國民黨的尾巴……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:18:08.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:18:23.802000+08:00","text":"不是，行政院版還有一個跟民眾黨不一樣的地方，就是後面有「厚植國防產業」，我\n們希望厚植國防產業，對臺灣是好事，就產業面是好事，就社會跟國防韌性也是好事。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:18:29.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:18:48.798000+08:00","text":"蔡總召，我跟您說明一下，我當然支持厚植國防產業，但是因為在這一條上面處理這\n個事情的話，就會牽涉到後面的條文，如果我們在後面的條文，大家有意見不一樣的地方，而\n第一條這裡已經通過會很麻煩，如果這樣的話，就變成第一條也得保留。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:18:49.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:18:53.742000+08:00","text":"如果第一條不在深水\n區，我們就儘快讓它通過，是不是我們就按照這樣處理？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:18:53.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:20.739000+08:00","text":"我再解釋一下，我們這樣列是比較寬的寫法，如果後面的協商，大家可以涉及到厚植\n國防產業的部分，前面的條文已經有了，後面假設表決沒有的話，沒有就沒有，但至少不能有\n了又……前面沒有這個部分，大家懂我的意思嗎？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:20.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:21.739000+08:00","text":"馬文君委員，這個你有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:21.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:22.739000+08:00","text":"如果行政院版本這一條跟台灣民眾黨團的部分，我們合併起\n來，就變成行政院版本，「因應中共軍事威脅」這幾個字換為因應……剛剛牛煦庭……","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:21.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:21.690000+08:00","text":"因應國際敵情……因應……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:42.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:47.182000+08:00","text":"「因應敵情威脅以及迫切國防需要」，其他不變，往下推。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:47.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:48.182000+08:00","text":"請馬文君委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:47.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:19:53.105000+08:00","text":"前面這個部分，我沒有意見，就是後面，因為這個也會牽涉到我們後面可能要討論的\n協 4\n。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:19:54.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:20:16.555000+08:00","text":"這次特別條例好像國、眾兩黨大家討論的結果，是比較傾向對美採購，所以就這個部分，如\n果我們把美國政府跟它授權的體系加進來，其實也可以確保我們在獲得的時候是比較有保障的\n，所以我才會主張應該要把這個加進來。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:20:22.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:20:40.653000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下蔡總召，如果您覺得「厚植國防產業」這幾個字是特別關鍵的，假設在\n民眾黨的版本裡面加在「發揮聯合戰力，厚植國防產業，以提升聯合作戰效能」，後面一樣，\n這樣子是可以接受的嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:20:40.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:20:43.294000+08:00","text":"我的想法大概跟你很接近。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:20:43.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:20:51.399000+08:00","text":"我覺得各位提的都非常好，把它加進來都非常好，可是刻意把它去掉了就不好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:20:52.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:05.349000+08:00","text":"譬如\n說，我聽完你們說「為因應國際局勢」，這是好事，但刻意刪掉「因應中共軍事的威脅持續擴\n張」，我覺得沒必要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:06.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:18.874000+08:00","text":"我們今天為什麼要有軍購條例的原因，真的就是要因應中國持續擴張對\n臺灣的威脅，各政黨把這個放進去，不會傷到你們。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:19.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:21.175000+08:00","text":"將軍你很清楚，你當一輩子的軍人，你不\n可能不知道我們真正最大的威脅是來自於中共持續武力擴張。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:21.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:43.042000+08:00","text":"但是各位認為可能不是，可能還有別的，你要因應國際的情勢，我也贊成把它放進來，可是\n要放進來，如果你刻意把「因應中共軍事威脅持續擴張」刪掉的話，又好像我們在閃躲什麼，\n又好奇怪！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:43.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:44.263000+08:00","text":"我們就開宗明義來講，這一題，立法院本來就是要跟社會對話，我們臺灣民眾感受\n到最大的軍事威脅，當然就是中共的軍事威脅嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:44.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:44.843000+08:00","text":"你還要把「因應國際局勢」文字納進來，很\n好啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:45.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:46.764000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是把它加進來，不要用刪去的，徐巧芯委員提的那個，我很贊成啊！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:46.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:21:47.124000+08:00","text":"後面要\n加進些什麼，很好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:21:47.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:27.187000+08:00","text":"可是刻意要排除原來軍購條例就是要因應整個中共軍事武力持續擴張對\n臺灣造成的威脅，我們把這個劃掉以後，大家拿起來對，會覺得我們刻意要排除些什麼，這樣\n對大家可能也不好啦，好不好？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:27.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:28.228000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:28.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:34.012000+08:00","text":"徐巧芯委員剛剛所說的，可以把它變成文字化後給我，我等一下唸一遍徵詢大家\n同意，好嗎？好的。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:34.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:34.632000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:40.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:56.402000+08:00","text":"在蔡英文時期，當時立法院增訂新式戰機採購特別條例第一條立法理由寫\n「為因應敵情威脅與迫切之國防需要」，後來提出的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例第一條的\n立法理由也是寫「為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要」，那時候你們怎麼不寫中共？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:57.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:22:58.903000+08:00","text":"現在突然\n要寫，現在是幹嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:22:59.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:09.307000+08:00","text":"所以我才講，你用一個相對中性的詞，重點是這些內容，所以我講今天你\n要對照，你不應該拿這些東西對照，應該跟過去行政院提出來的版本對照。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:10.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:15.869000+08:00","text":"還是我們現在就是\n有心要炒作這件事及升高對立的情勢，這樣從外交的角度來看，不見得是好事。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:16.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:18.490000+08:00","text":"我很持平且很\n客觀的在這裡做這個提醒。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:19.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:21.652000+08:00","text":"如果我們連第一條都沒有辦法達成共識就只好保留了，謝謝。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:21.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:22.652000+08:00","text":"好，徐委員巧芯請發言，林楚茵委員請稍待一下。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:22.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:23.652000+08:00","text":"院長，我已經把那個文字請議事人員整理給你。協 5","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:23.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:23:57.283000+08:00","text":"我想是這樣子的，因為第一條，大家今天氣氛也都很好，其實現在也是綜合剛剛蔡總\n召所堅持的幾個厚植國防實力的部分，也綜合民眾黨團大概的脈絡，而國民黨在這邊也都配合\n了，再加上前面所謂的因應敵情，這是過去特別條例都是這樣的寫法，我覺得也沒有不妥。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:23:57.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:07.370000+08:00","text":"如\n果在這個事情上面，還沒有到深水區，大家能夠讓它通過，我覺得是比較好的，否則的話，我\n覺得國民黨在這邊也都配合各個政黨非常多了。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:07.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:13.315000+08:00","text":"如果都沒有辦法的話，就只能把它保留，我覺\n得第一條就這樣保留有點可惜，以上建議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:13.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:14.955000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:14.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:15.635000+08:00","text":"林楚茵委員，請發言。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:17.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:23.837000+08:00","text":"我認為反正現在文字已經出來了，是不是把文字讓大家看一下之後，最重要的還是看\n一下國防部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:25.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:34.320000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得基本上它影響到的是後面，我們真的在幾個項目跟欄目當中，到底是不是\n要把它放進特別條例裡？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:34.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:38.421000+08:00","text":"所以我的建議只是趕快把它文字化，也請國防部發表一下意見。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:38.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:41.422000+08:00","text":"等一下文字出來以後，我會請國防部表達意見，大家請放心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:41.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:42.002000+08:00","text":"范雲委員，請發言。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:45.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:48.967000+08:00","text":"到底要不要直接點出中共，還是寫敵情就好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:49.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:24:51.828000+08:00","text":"針對這部分，我也是尊重國防部的意見。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:24:52.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:12.593000+08:00","text":"我只是看起來，行政院版有明指中共，民眾黨版也有明指中共，結果國民黨一版沒有寫中共，\n如果是尊重多數意見的話，其實因為這幾年的情勢，又跟蔡英文總統時的情勢不太一樣，那個\n中共的軍事威脅是加大的。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:13.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:17.494000+08:00","text":"如果本來就有，然後要特別刪掉，的確有莊瑞雄幹事長講的，覺得\n有點敏感。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:17.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:19.035000+08:00","text":"不過我也樂見剛剛徐巧芯委員覺得可以把「厚植國防產業」放在民眾黨版的「發揮\n聯合戰力」後面，我覺得這樣蠻好的，就是能夠寬一點。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:19.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:20.776000+08:00","text":"聽起來大家並不支持把美國政府採購\n放進去，因為這樣又太限縮了，以上意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:20.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:21.337000+08:00","text":"我尊重國防部的意見，謝謝。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:43.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:44.530000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝范雲委員發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:44.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:50.457000+08:00","text":"我們等一下馬上會把文字提供給大家，也請大家看一下，再請國防\n部表達一下意見。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:50.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:57.547000+08:00","text":"剛開始第一條的討論，大家意見會比較多一點，慢慢往前推進，會比較順一\n點，我們每次審法案的經驗都是這樣子。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:25:57.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:25:58.648000+08:00","text":"請大家稍安勿躁。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:26:25.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:26:35.425000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部請聽一下，因為還在列印，我先用口頭唸一遍，請大家聽一下，再表達意見。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"第一條","start":"2026-04-23T14:26:36.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:26:58.788000+08:00","text":"「因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要，為建置可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武器\n及裝備，運用重層嚇阻，發揮聯合戰力，厚植國防產業，以提升聯合作戰效能，確保國家安全\n，特制定本條例。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"第一條","start":"2026-04-23T14:26:58.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:27:03.374500+08:00","text":"」各位黨團幹部都聽清楚了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"第一條","start":"2026-04-23T14:27:03.374500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:27:07.961000+08:00","text":"因為文字現在還在印，等一下會印過來，我\n們抓緊時間。主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:27:07.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:27:10.762000+08:00","text":"我剛剛沒聽清楚，是厚植國防實力，還是厚植國防產業？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:27:10.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:27:11.762000+08:00","text":"我剛剛好像聽到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:27:11.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:27:13.423000+08:00","text":"巧芯，你剛剛提的是國防實力嗎？協 6","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:27:27.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:01.303000+08:00","text":"我提一下，我回溯一下這個是蔡其昌總召建議的，說想要把行政院裡面的厚植國防產\n業加進來，但我們這邊的要求就是前面要按照過去的寫法，是為因應敵情威脅，就是第一條大\n家互相有理的協調，我覺得是這樣子，如果對於前面大家還有這麼多意見，那後面也沒有必要\n按照蔡其昌總召的想法去處理了。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:02.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:03.265000+08:00","text":"這是跟清龍總召講一下剛剛的脈絡，謝謝。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:03.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:06.144000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，其實現在這條這樣凝聚以後，融合各個不同政黨的條文，現在已經開始非常\n清晰了，我再念一遍，陳總召麻煩聽清楚一點，拜託。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:06.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:38.513000+08:00","text":"「第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要，為建置可保護國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之\n武器裝備，運用重層嚇阻，發揮聯合戰力，厚植國防產業，以提升聯合作戰效能，確保國家安\n全，特制定本條例。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:40.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:52.198000+08:00","text":"」第二個「為」我們先把它撤掉，只有一個「為」，一開始是「為因應國\n家」，剩下就是「建置」，第二個「為」我們就把它拿掉，這樣的話，各黨團幹部……請國防\n部表達意見可以嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:52.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:28:52.218000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:28:56.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:04.811000+08:00","text":"我剛剛如果沒有聽錯的話，文字上應該是說為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要……","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:05.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:07.152000+08:00","text":"然後後面那個「為」沒有了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:07.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:22.578000+08:00","text":"就是「建置可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備，運用重層嚇阻，發揮聯\n合戰力，厚植國防產業，以提升聯合作戰效能，確保國家安全，特制定本條例。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:22.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:22.898000+08:00","text":"」是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:25.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:45.762000+08:00","text":"就我這邊來看的話，「運用重層嚇阻」下面的「發揮聯合戰力」跟再往下的「以提升\n聯合作戰效能」，事實上有點重複的感覺吧，大家不會覺得嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:45.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:48.683000+08:00","text":"就是說一個是「發揮聯合戰力\n」……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:49.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:29:56.248000+08:00","text":"換句話說，「以提升聯合作戰效能」可以拿掉了，就是「厚植國防產業，確保國家安全，特\n制定本條例」？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:29:57.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:30:01.531000+08:00","text":"是不是能夠「運用重層嚇阻」……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:30:01.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:30:14.381000+08:00","text":"「發揮聯合戰力，厚植國防產業」，然後「提升聯合……」那一段就拿掉，「確保國家安全\n……」？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:30:14.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:30:44.211000+08:00","text":"因為「提升聯合作戰效能」也是我們原來就有的，我只是說前面「發揮聯合戰力」，\n跟我們原來行政院版的「運用重層攔截網，打造臺灣之盾；引進高科技及人工智慧，加速擊殺\n鏈；厚植國防產業」，差別有一個部分，這個能不能有一個……我建議一下好不好？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:30:48.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:30:56.340000+08:00","text":"「為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要，建置可防衛國家安全及強化部隊戰力之武器及\n裝備，運用重層嚇阻，強化防衛體系，厚植國防產業，以提升聯合作戰效能」，可以嗎？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:30:56.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:31:04.720000+08:00","text":"國民黨團……陳清龍陳總召，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:31:04.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:03.292000+08:00","text":"我在這邊，當然剛剛我們蔡總召還有巧芯委員都提到，我覺得國民黨版本裡面本來就\n有「厚植國防實力」，整個厚植國防實力包括的面向、範圍，是真正讓我們提升臺灣國防這樣\n協 7\n的力量，那你單純把它包括在一個產業，跟我們整個立法的精神……所以我在這邊，台灣民眾\n黨黨團還是建議，我們同意增加，但是厚植國防「產業」，我們把它修正為厚植國防「實力」\n，「實力」的包含性比較大，比較廣。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:03.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:10.414000+08:00","text":"請問一下，如果配合上剛才顧部長講的那一些，然後再把「產業」改成「實力」的話\n，會是怎麼樣的條文？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:13.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:14.336000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們現在修正。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:14.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:20.981000+08:00","text":"我大致上來念一遍：「為因應敵情威脅……建置可保衛國家安全…\n…」等等。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:21.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:32.889000+08:00","text":"再來，「運用重層嚇阻，強化防衛韌性，厚植國防實力，以提升聯合作戰效能，確\n保國家安全，特制定本條例」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:33.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:35.191000+08:00","text":"我想民進黨團、台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團，還有國防部應該都\n沒有意見吧？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:44.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:48.118000+08:00","text":"還是希望能把「厚植國防產業」的意旨放進來。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:48.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:51.383000+08:00","text":"我問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:51.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:32:58.986000+08:00","text":"不好意思，部長，我問一下，您剛剛在前一輪時有講了一段，是什麼？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:32:58.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:01.747000+08:00","text":"就\n是您在前一輪有講了一段，那是什麼？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:02.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:02.748000+08:00","text":"不好意思，剛剛沒有記到。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:04.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:07.310000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長已經把它納進去了，就是運用重層嚇阻……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:07.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:08.310000+08:00","text":"重層嚇阻？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:07.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:07.850000+08:00","text":"強化防韌體系……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:08.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:08.750000+08:00","text":"強化防韌體系？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:08.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:09.610000+08:00","text":"強化防衛韌性。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:10.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:11.411000+08:00","text":"強化防衛韌性？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:11.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:11.991000+08:00","text":"強化防衛韌性，厚植國防產業。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:19.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:23.045000+08:00","text":"如果是強化……綜合民眾黨跟部長的意思，就變成「強化防衛韌性，厚植國防實力」\n？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:23.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:26.326000+08:00","text":"大家對於厚植國防產業這一件事情……其實在國防法裡面本來就是強調國防自主，厚\n植國防產業，也就是把國防法的意旨納進來。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:26.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:27.487000+08:00","text":"我不覺得這個放在第一條裡面顯示有什麼不好！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:47.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:48.416000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們沒有覺得不好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:48.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:33:59.699000+08:00","text":"只是現在各黨大家有不同的內容，所以我們只是在說是不\n是大家參照不同的意見把它整合在一起，變成大家的共識。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:33:59.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:08.541000+08:00","text":"所以大家其實多多少少……你看，\n本來國民黨裡面有一些現在我們也沒去堅持，本來民進黨也有一些，可能行政院版本也做了一\n些調整。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:09.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:13.342000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，像剛剛部長有特別講希望可以放入強化防衛韌性，那也 OK。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:16.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:25.571000+08:00","text":"不過後\n面民眾黨陳清龍總召認為把厚植國防「產業」變成「實力」，是不是大家可以尋求這樣一個共\n識？","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:25.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:31.516000+08:00","text":"我的問題是這個，並沒有反對放「產業」兩個字，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:37.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:42.794000+08:00","text":"就剛剛徐委員所講的，我回應他說我跟他的意見幾乎一致。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:44.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:34:44.854000+08:00","text":"為什麼我這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:34:45.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:35:06.447000+08:00","text":"因為我們都清楚知道，基本上國防產業……臺灣除了半導體產業、AI 產業外，如果未來能因應\n並讓我們國家更安全，讓臺灣更有軍事上實力的話，那麼發展國防產業不僅對國家安全有幫助\n，也對臺海和平有幫助。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:35:07.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:35:16.715000+08:00","text":"更重要的是，我們在經濟上又多了一個可以讓中小企業投入國防產業\n生產，對我們的經濟發展與產業發展幫忙會很大。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:35:21.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:35:35.347000+08:00","text":"我知道民眾黨在後面談到金額時，或許他們\n協 8\n對於強化國防韌性，也就是國防自主、國防自製有不一樣的想法。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:35:35.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:35:49.174000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛跟徐巧芯委員解\n釋時就先講到，我們先把範圍匡大，至於最後要通過哪一些；或許最後我們並不能達成共識，\n甚至金額部分也不能達成共識。","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:35:49.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:04.002000+08:00","text":"但或許後來民眾黨也會被社會或被民進黨說服，你們也覺得適\n度的國防自主能讓我們的國防產業得以在臺灣生根發展，或許你們最後也會覺得這個很重要。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:04.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:24.660000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，前面這部分其實不是這部特別條例的核心，剛剛才會跟徐巧芯委員達成共識\n，他也支持把產業先放進去，因為最後的金額要不要做，還是需要大家來討論。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:25.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:40.946000+08:00","text":"所以把產業放\n進去，我認為在整個思維上會更完整，對我們的國防自主跟產業發展，其實都是多面向的幫忙\n，這也是展現我們的態度。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:41.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:43.146000+08:00","text":"我的想法基本上是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:43.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:50.908000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，現在已經發到各位手上，容許我再念一遍，如果大家還有不同意見，再發言\n好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:50.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:36:55.349000+08:00","text":"麻煩請國防部顧部長手上也要有一份，給國防部顧部長一份。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:36:57.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:20.642000+08:00","text":"「第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要，建置可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武\n器及裝備，運用重層嚇阻，強化防衛韌性，厚植國防實力，以提升聯合作戰效能，確保國家安\n全，特制定本條例。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:21.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:25.285000+08:00","text":"」\n各位黨團幹部如果都同意這樣一個修正的話，國防部顧部長……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:27.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:31.650000+08:00","text":"我是建議，就是大家參照，「厚植國防實力」能不能在前面加字？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:32.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:33.572000+08:00","text":"即「厚植國防自主\n實力」。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:39.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:44.864000+08:00","text":"那不要外購嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:45.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:46.005000+08:00","text":"我想我們就針對這個部分。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:46.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:47.005000+08:00","text":"莊委員，請。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:46.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:46.105000+08:00","text":"范雲委員請準備。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:49.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:50.715000+08:00","text":"院長還有各位協商代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:51.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:37:53.698000+08:00","text":"我看大家剛剛哄堂一笑，我們不要啦。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:37:57.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:38:08.720000+08:00","text":"行政院提出、國防部\n提出這樣的一個版本，他花了那麼久的時間去盤點，其實到最後，你說這個條文會差距多大？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:38:08.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:38:34.858000+08:00","text":"也沒有啦，大家談得很有共識了，但是也不要忘記了，國防部提出來因應整個國家的需求，條\n文裡面讓國人去感受到各個政黨來支持我們共同的國家，而且是國防自主，我覺得這一點應該\n是值得敬佩的，我反而覺得核心就是要國防自主。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:38:35.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:38:55.752000+08:00","text":"我們就是沒本事，才要跟別人買，如果我們有本事，到最後我們自己的國防產業可以有辦法\n自主以外，又變成形成一個產業，那又是一股很大的經濟上的力量，所以我認為顧部長這樣，\n就是加「自主」兩個字，我認為應該是各黨大家一起來支持，這是好事啦！","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:38:55.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:38:58.638000+08:00","text":"范雲委員，就針對這個條文好嗎？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:38:58.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:38:58.658000+08:00","text":"請長話短說，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:01.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:39:27.069000+08:00","text":"我剛剛本來想的是，厚植國防實力前面加「產業及」這三個字，因為剛剛幾位都說並不\n反對產業，有國防產業及實力，其實就兩者都有，當然顧部長的那個「自主」，我覺得可能更\n好，因為不管怎麼做，我們國防要有自主的實力，降低依賴，我想這個跟防衛韌性是這一次很\n重要的部分。對。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:27.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:39:27.850000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:28.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:39:28.510000+08:00","text":"協 9\n林沛祥委員請發言。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:30.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:39:58.847000+08:00","text":"我會認為直接這樣子，目前「厚植國防實力」比較囊括大家所有的需求，而且特地去\n講國防產業、國防自主，厚植國防實力，這才是我們這個條例應該做的，而且這是特別條例，\n有些東西如果該常態預算就該常態預算，特別條例應該是針對特別的需求才做出預算編列，所\n以對於這個「國防實力」，我覺得這樣就夠了。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:58.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:39:59.208000+08:00","text":"「自主」不用加？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:39:59.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:00.209000+08:00","text":"你覺得不用加？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:00.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:00.790000+08:00","text":"馬文君委員，請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:03.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:41.703000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們也是認為，因為包括這一次特別條例裡面很多經費都是用買的，所以如\n果把「自主」加進來反而是自相矛盾、自打嘴巴，「厚植國防實力」其實已經涵蓋比較多，如\n果我們的國防實力可以增加，它的面向是所有的產業，它不是單一的產業，其實國防牽涉到非\n常多的產業，包括半導體都是，所以產業加不加進來，我覺得這個可能只是為後面要鋪陳而已\n，厚植國防實力才是條例制定的根本，所以我們希望不要再多加一些可能比較會衍生問題的一\n些字句。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:41.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:42.984000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:42.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:43.105000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團有意見嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:45.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:40:57.020000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨黨團希望就直接照剛剛所念的「厚植國防\n實力」，國防部希望加「自主」，即自主實力，民進黨黨團同意，但是現在國民黨黨團有不一\n樣版本。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:40:58.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:04.803000+08:00","text":"顧部長，我請問一下，如果照我第一次剛才所念的「厚植國防實力」，以國防部立場\n來講，接受應該沒有問題吧？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:07.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:08.462000+08:00","text":"接受，就這樣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:08.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:09.423000+08:00","text":"肯定可以接受，因為它還是一個很大的範圍嘛。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:09.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:10.084000+08:00","text":"這個不是重點嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:19.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:26.303000+08:00","text":"我想重點可能會拉到後面的那個深水區域裡面，看看大家到底是怎麼樣。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:26.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:28.044000+08:00","text":"好，我們到深水區再說好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:28.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:29.805000+08:00","text":"我們現在連淺水區都要游不出去了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:30.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:34.728000+08:00","text":"先把深水區解決，淺水區自然會解決。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:34.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:41.592000+08:00","text":"好，我們就先定這樣，照我剛剛所念的，也在各位手上，第一條條文我們就把它通過好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:41.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:42.953000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:42.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:41:53.414000+08:00","text":"我們進入第三條，我們進入行政院提案第三條、民眾黨黨團提案第三條、國民黨黨團提案第\n四條，有關法令名稱之定義的條文。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:41:53.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:04.924000+08:00","text":"請大家翻到條文對照表第 9 頁，因為本條例法律名稱我們\n已經通過採民眾黨黨團的版本，本條我們是不是就照台灣民眾黨團的提案通過？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:07.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:08.299000+08:00","text":"牛煦庭委員請\n發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:09.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:24.604000+08:00","text":"主席，我是提醒一下，因為條次……在委員會審查的時候國民黨黨版有第三條，其他\n是沒有的，但第三條在委員會的時候是照案通過的，所以現在如果通過的話，我們將條次一併\n處理，就是第四條，「部隊辦理經行政院核定採購第五條所定項目之裝備」，這樣順下來會比\n較順一點，以上。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:32.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:33.486000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨的條文第四條……我們最後會順這個條次，沒有問題，好的。好的。協 10","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:33.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:34.507000+08:00","text":"顧部長要不要補充說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:34.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:42:38.130000+08:00","text":"如果沒有意見，我們就照他們……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:42:38.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:08.786000+08:00","text":"是依照哪一個版本？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:08.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:13.269000+08:00","text":"第三條應該是國民黨版本，就是在委員會的時候，我們就有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:13.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:14.810000+08:00","text":"我知道，現在就是要……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:15.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:42.096000+08:00","text":"現在要注意的當然就是，如果要變成……國民黨原來的第三條通過的話，第四條以外\n，這裡面有一個辦理行政院核定採購的那一個……第幾條，這個可能也要改了，就變成要……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:42.096000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:43.096000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長說條次會再改。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:42.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:45.717000+08:00","text":"內文也要改，就變成第五條了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:45.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:51.340000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，就是我剛剛講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:51.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:59.343000+08:00","text":"我們到最後會一起再順過來，再跟顧部長還有各黨團交換意見，內容部分照台灣民眾黨團通\n過，大家有沒有意見？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:43:59.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:43:59.783000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:44:06.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:44:54.249000+08:00","text":"現在各位黨團幹部，我們進入第四條，行政院提\n案的第四條，民眾黨、國民黨團提案的第五條有關採購項目的條文，這一點要請各黨團來踴躍\n發言一下，因為這些項目比較多，麻煩請國防部簡單說明一下，各黨團幹部聽一下，然後請各\n黨團準備發言，謝謝。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:44:54.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:45:07.132000+08:00","text":"行政院版本的第四條、民眾黨版本的第四條以及國民黨版本的第五條，這就涉及到在\n條例裡面要如何寫採購的項目。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:45:07.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:46:24.975000+08:00","text":"行政院在這案裡面已經說明，就是在條例跟預算分隔的情況之\n下，條例是在講我們要做的能力建構項目，所以我們會把它單純寫說精準火炮、遠程精準打擊\n飛彈等等這七個大類，其他的兩個版本，都是已經特定去寫到某一個案的精確數字，或者是精\n確的案項，就這樣子的寫法，我想是混淆了條例跟預算案的不同，所以我們認為還是採用要建\n構的能力項目到底是什麼，這樣子來寫會比較合乎條例的寫法，預算會按照所要建構的能力項\n目，再去提出相對應的預算。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:46:26.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:46:30.617000+08:00","text":"顧部長講得非常清楚，各位……林楚茵委員請發言。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:46:32.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:46:32.619000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:46:33.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:46:37.762000+08:00","text":"事實上我們本週其實也開過一次機密會議，之前其實也開過了，在前兩天\n國防部也在機密會議當中，公開了可以公開版本的強化國防韌性及不對稱戰力執行報告。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:46:38.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:47:15.299000+08:00","text":"如果\n在公開的版本，我想其實現場的委員應該也都可以拿得到，它就有針對細部，把國防部為什麼\n列出七大類的原因包括內容，在可公開的版本中已經把一些具有機敏性的內容遮蔽掉了，我相\n信現場的委員如果需要，其實是可以看得到內容的，這也是為什麼需要召開機密會議，讓現場\n所有的委員能夠了解。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:47:15.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:47:59.030000+08:00","text":"國防部也把為什麼要用這個方式先訂定條例，因為剛剛承接部長所說的\n，我們現在在做的是條例，而不是預算，回到預算的時候，我相信這些可以公開的，包括數量\n、內容及武器的部分都可以，所以本席非常支持國防部跟行政院所提出來的第四條的原因，是\n因為在這份報告當中，為什麼會這樣訂、會是哪七大類其實是非常清楚的，所以我認為如果我\n們的討論要有效率，必須要有一個進展的話，現在是公開的朝野協商……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:00.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:02.293000+08:00","text":"可是這個內容又有部分是機密。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:03.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:11.179000+08:00","text":"那我會建議就是稍後如果在野黨的委員有什麼意見，覺得有哪些部分不需要的話……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:11.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:12.160000+08:00","text":"是不是可以休息一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:12.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:14.762000+08:00","text":"我已經把答案都講出來了，我就喊休息，好不好？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:15.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:18.325000+08:00","text":"莊委員請發言，國民黨團請準備。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:18.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:38.079000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，各位協商代表來看一下行政院版的第四條跟國民黨的第五條還有台灣民眾\n黨的第四條，其實台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨你們的寫法不是軍購，這有點像網購、點菜一樣。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:48:38.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:48:59.876000+08:00","text":"行政院的版本譬如講精準火砲還有遠程精準打擊的飛彈、無人機載具、反系統，採台灣民眾黨\n版本跟採中國國民黨版本會產生一個問題，就是限制住了，你的授權就只有這一些，會變成綁\n手綁腳。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:49:01.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:49:16.188000+08:00","text":"行政院這個版本就告訴國人同胞，我們要建軍，我們要有精準火砲、遠程的打擊飛彈\n、無人機載具、防空反飛彈、反裝甲等等，甚至還有人工智慧輔助跟指揮管制通訊的部分。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:49:16.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:49:28.295000+08:00","text":"可\n是在台灣民眾黨版本裡面，就是限縮，比如自走砲，甚至說你只能給我買自走砲 60 門，海馬士\n的部分只能給我買 82 套，你不能給我買到 83 套，買到 83 套，沒錢。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:49:28.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:50:46.450000+08:00","text":"中國國民黨的部分，你看\n反裝甲無人機的飛彈，重點就是國防部去跟美國在談，我相信這整個條例提出來是因應整個國\n防戰力的提升，尤其是剛剛我們採了台灣民眾黨的，為了整個國家安全，那我相信國家安全倒\n不是只有這幾項，甚至於把幾門砲都寫出來，你寫了 62 門、你寫了 82 套，那如果國防部跟你\n說我需要 100 套，你說你只能買 62 門火砲而已，國防部精準的算過了，不只買 62 門火砲，必\n須要建置 100 套，所以這個條例的寫法，台灣民眾黨提案的寫法，我認為大家是不是可以再來\n參考一下國防部提出的行政院版本，行政院的版本其實涵蓋會比較廣，比較廣就是說授權的部\n分變得更完整了，我們採行政院的版本，讓授權更完整了以後，讓它更有彈性以後，不是錢可\n以亂花，到最後還是要送出總預算。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:50:47.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:50:52.412000+08:00","text":"你總預算送出來，你認為現階段不需要這麼多的時候，那再來談嘛！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:50:52.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:50:53.412000+08:00","text":"好不好？以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:50:52.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:50:55.794000+08:00","text":"陳冠廷委員要發言，稍微等一下，我們先讓兩個黨團簡單扼要表達意見之後，再請陳冠廷委\n員發言。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:50:55.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:50:56.174000+08:00","text":"馬文君委員請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:51:04.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:08.400000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，因為這個條例我們剛剛通過的是因應敵情威脅，還有急迫的國防需要，\n所謂急迫的國防需要，當然我們現在想要儘速通過的就是對美軍購的部分，其實它非常明確，\n因為美國的發價書也清清楚楚把所有的品項包括所有的數量、金額都訂出來了，不過我覺得數\n量跟金額是可以討論的，因為從過去的經驗看來，有時候我們覺得太貴，可能還可以跟他們再\n做一些商討，或者套數如果我們有增加或減少的必要的話，其實都可以討論，可是他提供的項\n協 12\n目是非常明確的，所以我覺得應該要把它列出來，這個不會像是網購，因為我們看過去在採購\nF-16V 的時候，其實他就清清楚楚我們要買 66 架 F-16V，所以他很清楚我們到底要買什麼，才\n不會我們現在編了錢，到時候美國突然……因為我們對他是沒有罰則的，歷次以來，有些我們\n付了錢或者是已經提出需求的，他們沒有辦法即時提供或是沒有辦法在期限內，按照期程提供\n的時候，我們完全沒有辦法！","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:08.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:37.532000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望這個部分要比較明確，如果還是模糊的，隨便他可\n以匡很多，到時候我們要的他不給，他給我們的是我們不要的，或者是對我們的戰力沒有很大\n幫助的，這對我們來說會是損害！","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:38.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:46.439000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是希望在這個條例裡面，因為我們這個條例很明\n確，就是要通過這樣的預算，所以應該要清清楚楚地把它標示出來。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:46.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:46.959000+08:00","text":"謝謝馬文君委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:47.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:47.680000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團發言完畢之後，請陳冠廷委員發言。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:47.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:52:48.220000+08:00","text":"現在請台灣民眾黨黨團表達意見。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T14:52:55.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:15.317000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨這個版本其實跟剛剛馬委員講的很類似，因為現在還是要訂一個上限，所\n以我們加一加、加一加，就跟那天國防部給我們的專報是一樣的，還是有列一些金額，不過國\n防部這個金額有時候也會稍微有點不大一樣，也許等一下國防部可以說明一下，我們拿到好幾\n個版本，金額有一點小小的差異。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:16.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:24.265000+08:00","text":"另外，條例裡面也許可以不用寫數量跟金額，我覺得我們這邊應該是 OK。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:25.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:35.254000+08:00","text":"不過因為今天等一\n下可能要討論這個金額，這個部分可能還是會討論到，至於在條例裡面，我們是認為可以把金\n額和數量拿掉。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:35.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:35.834000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:36.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:37.075000+08:00","text":"陳冠廷委員，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:37.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:38.717000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:39.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:53:47.423000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員你們釋放出來的善意，把過去不可執行的部分先拿掉，就是現\n在有往前走一步。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:53:48.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:54:12.979000+08:00","text":"但我還是要再強調，也是回應馬委員，就是行政院的版本裡面包含無人載具\n跟反制系統等等，其實這些東西如果我們把它概括進去的話，感覺上就跟本次的立法要旨也不\n太一樣，如果要不對稱性，直接要的就是無人載具跟反制無人載具的一些措施。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:54:13.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:54:35.433000+08:00","text":"其實我們儘量\n用比較概括性的方式，才能夠確保未來我們獲得的東西跟數量是我們所希望的，如果只是像之\n前的這種版本的話，那它只是把……就是如果我們要升級的話，到時候又要針對這個條例，會\n有違誤之處。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:54:35.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:54:39.396000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是希望採行政院的版本，它的概括性是最大的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T14:54:40.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:09.724000+08:00","text":"至於剛才提到會不會有我們想要但是送不到，或者不想要的卻送到的這個問題，其實條例通\n過後，預算審查的時候，在野黨完全可以用你們的監督力道去執行，但是條例的部分，我們要\n儘可能地把它的概括性擴大，所以我們是希望國民黨可以再思考一下，儘量採用行政院的版本\n，或者根據行政院的版本，如果你們覺得可以再調整的部分來去增加。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:11.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:21.096000+08:00","text":"好，現在台灣民眾黨黨團同意不把這個數字列進去了，已經向前一步，現在只剩下行政院版\n本跟國民黨黨團的版本。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:21.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:26.699000+08:00","text":"顧部長，你如果表達一下意見的話，我們就來做個簡單的宣告好不好\n？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:27.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:28.320000+08:00","text":"你還有沒有要補充的？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:35.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:51.430000+08:00","text":"就馬委員剛剛講的這個，我還是再強調一遍，因為這個條例通過之後還是要送預算案\n協 13\n進來，這點我已經一再講過了，所以不可能是這個條例通過以後，就等於通過了這個案子。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:52.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:55:54.952000+08:00","text":"這\n個案子要買多少精準火砲？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:55:55.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:56:28.572000+08:00","text":"比如說我們已經公開講了，當然我們跟美方這邊所談定的，美方也\n已經知會國會的就是 M109A7 自走砲，但是你要寫成精準火砲跟 M109A7 自走砲，在這一點上\n面，其實差異真的是不大，但是下面有一些還不能公開的部分，還有一些沒辦法指明的部分，\n你就沒有辦法這樣子寫啊！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T14:56:28.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:56:58.549000+08:00","text":"也就是說，這個體例上的寫法，你如果上面是寫某一個什麼東西，\n那下面又沒有辦法全部寫，其實最後還是要按照我們的這個……我是建議還是按照我們的方式\n寫，至於具體的案項、具體的金額、具體的數量等等，再講一遍，還是要送到大院來嘛，大院\n不過，這個也是不過，那要過了才有啊。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:56:58.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:56:59.898500+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團馬文君委員，現在國防部顧部長講得非常的清楚，送預算的時候，還是有一道篩\n選機制，請馬文君委員，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:56:59.898500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T14:57:01.248000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:57:01.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:57:32.727000+08:00","text":"其實我們可能兩邊最大的差異點是，主要這個條例要通過的是對美軍\n購的部分，所以其實其他的部分，我們不認為……因為這些項次其實是非常模糊的，比如精準\n火砲，川普總統第 1 屆的時候，其實他曾經要賣我們 M109A6，可是到後來他反悔了，他不賣，\n所以我們剩下的錢全部都改買海馬斯，他也不退，我們就是所有的錢都買海馬斯，我們那時候\n是想要自走砲的，它還是會有變動的可能。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:57:32.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:58:50.175000+08:00","text":"我們現在最大的不同點在於國眾兩黨可能要通過的是針對軍購的部分，可是現在不管國防部\n也好，行政院的版本也好，提到的是還有其他的，其他的部分，我們強力支持無人載具的發展\n，不管是無人機、無人艇，或者其他無人載具，我們認為其實國內都應該要具備這樣的能量，\n可是它不需要放在特別條例裡面，它如果按部就班跟經濟部一起合作、一起推動，我相信我們\n這個產業其實可以把它做得很好，這個條例我們很清楚地想要通過的就是對美軍購的部分，所\n以把它明確地列出來，就美方已經同意的，或者未來可能會同意的，我們怎麼樣去把重心放在\n那裡，這個才是我們要通過這個條例的一個主要核心目的，所以其實不會有問題。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T14:58:51.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:58:55.597000+08:00","text":"他寫的這個\n部分有些太模糊，我們認為放在公務預算會比較恰當。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:58:55.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T14:58:55.917000+08:00","text":"好，我們休息 5 分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T14:58:55.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:16:47.617000+08:00","text":"休息（14 時 59 分）\n繼續開會（15 時 16 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:16:47.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:16:54.124000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝國防部各列席單位，請坐，我們繼續開會。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:16:54.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:16:56.527000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員，您要發言？好，請。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:17:01.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:17:36.251000+08:00","text":"針對國民黨版的第五條、院版的第四條，剛剛有一個新的版本，我先講一下，我覺得\n這一條大家的意見要聚焦，因為我們在委員會說真的已經討論滿久了，我覺得意見要聚焦的點\n大概就只有那幾個而已，第一個，我們就來看這個最新的第五條，寫了 M109A7 自走砲，然後\n寫海馬士等等之類的，這就是剛剛在爭執的，到底要不要把名稱都寫上去，這是第一個爭執點\n。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:17:36.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:18:49.079000+08:00","text":"今天傅總召也在，因為委員會協商的時候，傅總召不在，所以我想再溝通一次，傅崐萁總召\n因為在花蓮，一定對馬太鞍條例特別熟悉，馬太鞍條例也是一樣，它匡一筆金錢，然後要去救\n災，救災需要什麼，也是有項目的，三黨都共同通過的這個條例裡面就寫得很清楚，我匡了幾\n協 14\n億元，比如是要買農業機具，而「農業機具」這四個字就是大方向，這跟院版講「精準火砲」\n是一模一樣的意思，院版第一個寫「精準火砲」，就好像馬太鞍條例寫「農業機具」，但馬太\n鞍條例裡面不會寫「農業機具：久保田 M109……」，不會把這個寫上去，因為就是要買農業機\n具協助光復鄉，至於農業機具到底要買哪一個，後面的預算案會寫，所以我覺得我們是不是聚\n焦回歸到本來的院版，第一個寫精準火砲，第二個寫遠程精準打擊飛彈，這樣才對，因為從以\n前到現在，中華民國歷史上的特別條例都是這樣寫的。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:18:50.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:07.325000+08:00","text":"再來，第二個，今天我們要加強國防，沒有規定一定要跟美國購買，跟哪一個國家購買都可\n以，我們的目的是要增強我們的國家安全，是為了不對稱戰力，這個是大家前面全部都同意的\n。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:19:08.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:33.571000+08:00","text":"其實有個問題我上次就問過，我也一直希望國民黨看誰能夠回答這個問題，除了品項寫得不\n一樣之外，現在最主要的是國民黨少了防空系統、少了無人載具，那我就請問，如果今天的目\n的是為了不對稱作戰、為了加強我們的國防，為什麼人工智慧輔助的防空系統跟無人載具不需\n要？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:19:34.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:44.115000+08:00","text":"我覺得回答這個問題就好，因為顯然就是一直把這兩個東西拿掉，為什麼人工智慧輔助防\n空系統這件事情國民黨認為不重要？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:19:44.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:52.519000+08:00","text":"又或者明明現在那麼多戰爭發生，無人載具看起來是越來\n越重要，為什麼國民黨覺得不重要？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:19:53.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:59.161000+08:00","text":"我覺得一旦這件事情回答清楚了，我們才有辦法繼續往下\n，謝謝。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:19:59.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:19:59.741000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:00.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:20:18.688000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，還有國防部列席的所有官員，顯然這一條我們沒有辦法達成共識，現在國民\n黨黨團跟台灣民眾黨黨團也融合了一個版本，剛才我也請其他黨團的各位看了一下，我想我們\n待會回過頭來再來討論，現在先往下一條。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:20.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:20:29.288000+08:00","text":"我們往行政院提案第五條進行，剛剛擱置的這個條文我們在最後還會再回來討論，好不好？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:29.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:20:30.908000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:32.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:20:41.552000+08:00","text":"繼續協商行政院提案第五條、民眾黨黨團提案第五條、國民黨黨團提案第六條，有關經費上\n限的條文，請大家翻到對照表第 28 頁。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:44.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:20:58.594000+08:00","text":"有關經費上限，行政院版本是新臺幣 1 兆 2,500 億，民\n眾黨黨團版本是 4,000 億，國民黨黨團版本 3,800 億。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:20:58.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:21:00.596000+08:00","text":"各黨團代表請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:21:01.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:21:15.545000+08:00","text":"首先請台灣民眾黨黨團針對行政院版本第五條發言。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T15:21:15.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:21:50.411000+08:00","text":"好，台灣民眾黨當初在提這一條的時候，是以當初已經公告的軍購項目進行編列，再\n加八百多億的彈性空間，目前台灣民眾黨討論的結果，因為現在好像可能會有一些額外的 FMS\n部分，也許邏輯上我們可以考慮把它適當的加進去這次的條例裡，不過還是要以最後確定的狀\n況，才能支應這個所謂的預算，以上。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:21:50.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:21:50.751000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請表達意見，請馬委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:21:50.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:21:50.811000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:02.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:15.856000+08:00","text":"就這個部分我們剛剛也一直不斷強調，針對對美軍購，或者可以提升即時\n戰力的部分，執政黨沈委員剛剛有提到，他說我們認為無人機、反無人機，或者無人載具的這\n個部分不重要，這是錯的，我們認為非常重要，本席是最早……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:15.856000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.856000+08:00","text":"那把它列進去啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:15.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.076000+08:00","text":"聽我講完，本席是最……\n協 15","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.076000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.076000+08:00","text":"胡說八道！","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.256000+08:00","text":"你才胡說八道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.296000+08:00","text":"這個是放在……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.617000+08:00","text":"公務預算裡面，中科院……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:16.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.057000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，好不好？拜託！拜託！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.477000+08:00","text":"馬委員，對不起，請繼續發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.557000+08:00","text":"沈委員拜託……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:17.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:43.793000+08:00","text":"他在委員會就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:43.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:45.218000+08:00","text":"我們尊重發言委員，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:45.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:46.702000+08:00","text":"你等一下也可以發言，好不好？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:47.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.139000+08:00","text":"你先不要打岔，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.199000+08:00","text":"馬委\n員，請繼續。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.299000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:22:50.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:22:54.502000+08:00","text":"首先我要說明的是，他們說現在公務預算只剩下 84 億的上限，是因\n為我們這兩三年，尤其近三年是付款的高峰期，包括對美的軍購，包括很多我們自己國防預算\n裡面，付款的高峰期是在這三年，可是以後就不是 84 億這樣子的上限，所以這個部分不能誤導\n，這是第一點。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:23:17.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:23:54.164000+08:00","text":"第二點，如果我們每年都可以編常態公務預算，既然認為這麼重要，而且無人機、無人艇、\n無人載具，這是迭代在發展的，你應該在我們的公務預算裡面，而且我們中科院已經科研，或\n者我們自己去自主研發或者去製造的，至少已經 20 年了，這些相關的技術或者我們應該採買的\n，我們不會沒有任何的一個方向，所以如果覺得重要，在公務預算早就應該編了，為什麼那時\n候沒有這樣做？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:23:54.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:23:56.405000+08:00","text":"這個反而應該要問問自己。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:23:57.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:24:27.741000+08:00","text":"所以如果現在特別預算放不進來，就說大家不重視，這更錯，尤其現在的產業發展，其實經\n濟部才是最內行的，我們國內的所有產業，科學園區及各方面的產業園區做得非常好的其實是\n經濟部，我們怎麼樣讓我們自己會的量能，比如說中科院或者我們其他國內自己有的一些相關\n技術，去結合經濟部整個整體產業的發展，這才是我們國內應該要推進的無人機、無人載具這\n樣子的一個進程，而不是隨便想說放在這裡。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:24:27.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:24:28.181000+08:00","text":"你到底要買什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:24:28.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:24:28.942000+08:00","text":"之前說買 20 萬架，現在突然又\n變成 30 萬架，你到底是怎麼去估計的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:24:28.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:24:29.122000+08:00","text":"我們看不出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:24:29.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:25:04.945000+08:00","text":"所以如果只是為了要一個數字，那對我們國防的傷害其實反而會造成更大的影響，所以我們\n才說可以立即通過的部分，不要把那個未確定的因素放進來，這樣會很清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:25:05.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:25:19.738000+08:00","text":"如果真的有必要\n，你另外再用其他的，特別條例不是只有一次而已，我們過去買 F-16V 的時候其實是 2019 年，\n2020 年我們馬上就通過另外一筆國防特別條例，就是海空戰力提升，我們做飛彈還有造船，隔\n一年就馬上又編了，所以根本沒有這樣的問題。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:25:19.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:25:20.599000+08:00","text":"你今天如果要及時讓我們可以在軍購上面更順\n利，可以很快的讓這個條例還有預算可以進行，應該要把它分開來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:25:43.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:25:49.304000+08:00","text":"這個部分再次強調，沈委\n員說我們不重視或不在乎，這是錯的。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:25:50.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:25:58.170000+08:00","text":"馬委員，現在你有太多情緒，被沈委員干擾了，重點是針對這個預算金額還沒表達你最關鍵\n的意思。金額？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:00.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:01.932000+08:00","text":"對，還是我們等一下再來討論，好不好？好。協 16","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:03.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:04.414000+08:00","text":"等下一輪你發言再說，好不好？好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:04.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:04.934000+08:00","text":"民進黨團請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:07.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:09.134000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，還有各位協商代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:11.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:30.440000+08:00","text":"其實大家應該聚焦在這個軍購條例裡面的預算上限，\n現在院版國防部這邊是 8 年 1.25 兆，國民黨跟民眾黨，其實我聽到現在，這已經進入深水區，\n這個是核心中的一個條文，就大膽的講嘛！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:31.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:37.627000+08:00","text":"你們本來開始從 3,500 億到 3,800 億，到你們的盧市\n長 8,100 億。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:39.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:26:42.750000+08:00","text":"我看黃國昌──台灣民眾黨的黨主席，你們又出來開一個記者會說藍白已經講好了\n，你們的方向一致，是 8,000 億，結果你們現在的版本是 4,000 億，要你們說多少也支支吾吾說\n不出來。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:26:57.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:10.591000+08:00","text":"這整個條例裡面，我們是在審這個條例，你們本來是說發價書來了以後，立法院再來\n弄一個軍購條例，我們一直在講這樣子緩不濟急，失去了一個彈性。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:11.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:17.696000+08:00","text":"既然你們昨天釋放出來的\n訊息是說你們的方向是 8,000 億，那你們現在到底是多少？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:17.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:17.856000+08:00","text":"社會都「霧煞煞」。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:18.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:19.177000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼一直強調支持院版的 1.25 兆？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:26.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:44.699000+08:00","text":"兩年多的時間，我相信這個不是國防部閉門造車，\n反而各個政黨裡面，我為什麼去講你們有一點把軍購當成網購，你們的數字到底是怎麼來的，\n可以這樣變來變去，然後到了今天，你們今天講的又跟昨天不一樣了。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:45.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:54.603000+08:00","text":"行政院、國防部可能認\n為很委屈，它整個建軍的計畫裡面，也不是我們自己去盤整而已，一定是跟美國嘛！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:55.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:57.478000+08:00","text":"大家一起\n說一說、喬一喬，看我們要買多少對整個國家安全是足夠的。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:27:57.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:27:59.460000+08:00","text":"其實我認為應該明確的表達，台\n灣民眾黨也不說，國民黨也不說，這樣怎麼說的下去？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:28:12.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:28:32.843000+08:00","text":"其實第五條整個條文在講的就是一個上限，上限大家用喊價的，喊完我們又不曉得要相信誰\n講的，國民黨已經提過太多版本了，從三千五到三千八，然後到八千一，到昨天台灣民眾黨的\n主席……王委員，這樣不就等於你們主席亂講？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:28:35.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:28:45.456000+08:00","text":"不是，我剛剛看了，你就寫一個黃國昌 8,000 億\n，就是你們拿出來講的，你們說藍白的方向，不是共識，但是是一致的方向，這也都是你們自\n己講的。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:28:46.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:28:48.657000+08:00","text":"那麼到現在你們的版本是什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:28:48.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:28:49.637000+08:00","text":"這樣沒辦法協商嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:28:50.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:28:56.159000+08:00","text":"我們不是在護航，我也一直在追\n，追國防部、行政院今天提出 8 年 1.25 兆是怎麼來的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:00.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:29:00.920000+08:00","text":"他也來解釋啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:00.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:29:02.382000+08:00","text":"人家也跟你們說要買什\n麼，專報給你們知道，編預算會比較好編，結果你們不來。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:02.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:29:04.444000+08:00","text":"現在問你們到底要多少，你們又說\n不出來，這樣要怎麼說事情？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:04.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:29:06.486000+08:00","text":"謝謝，范雲委員跟陳冠廷委員簡短扼要發言完畢後，我們請國防部說明，好嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:06.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:29:06.706000+08:00","text":"范委員請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:29:23.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:30:07.546000+08:00","text":"現在也是到關鍵的錢的部分，對我們來講就是 1.25 兆不能打折，因為從剛剛的項目到\n這裡，看起來至少很明確的，藍白共同的版本也是集中在軍購，只是你們拿掉了對美，這有一\n點進展，可是國防部一直都說還有商購及委製，我想很多人可能聽不懂什麼是商購及委製，其\n實就是我們剛剛所講的，包含自主的國防產業、無人機產業，還有一個，就整體來講的話，AI\n系統的建置也不在你們這裡面，就是我們講的這整個多重防空系統的建置。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:30:08.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:30:21.250000+08:00","text":"剛剛馬文君委員一直在說你們沒有反對無人機等等，講經濟部，既然你們沒有反對的話，那\n我想告訴大家，經濟部跟國防部的角色非常的不一樣。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:30:21.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:30:42.917000+08:00","text":"我們現在要講的是，我上次在委員會中\n已經說了，連經濟學人都告訴大家無人機的重要性，現在都是 made in China，中國做的，所以\n非紅供應鏈非常重要，臺灣的產業很有競爭性，可是受訪的廠商都已經說了：擔心藍白反對。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:30:42.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:30:45.558000+08:00","text":"也就是說，為什麼不能放在平常的預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:30:45.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:30:57.182000+08:00","text":"因為特別預算才有經費完整、預算規模跟可預測性，\n協 17\n你有長期大量的訂單，國內廠商才願意投資，建立產能，我們才能打造非紅供應鏈嘛！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:30:58.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:31:06.407000+08:00","text":"所以我\n想這個部分，除非你們反對這個目標，否則你的那個錢數就是做不出這個部分，只剩下軍購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T15:31:06.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:31:15.332000+08:00","text":"其實我們所講的，軍購、商購、委製三者不能缺一，這非常的重要，它沒辦法用年度的預算來\n處理。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:31:16.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:31:17.213000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:31:17.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:31:20.515000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳委員發言，牛委員請準備。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:31:20.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:31:54.917000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我們簡單來回復，首先第一點，至少在我自己的選區──嘉義的民雄航太\n園區裡，對我們來講，我們能夠有自主的國防產業是極端重要的，剛才提到的這些，不論是軍\n購也好，委製跟商購也好，從最基本的來講，其實我們上一個條文裡面就有含臺美合作的部分\n，我們如果生產是在國內生產，但是其中核心的科技是來自其他國家或者是美國的話，請問這\n個也不包含嗎？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:31:55.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:32:09.145000+08:00","text":"我們跟國民黨、在野黨主要的不同就是自主的這個部分，這一次在野黨的要求主要是軍購，\n就是外購，我們要談的是自主的能力，自主國防也是自立自強啊！","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:32:09.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:32:18.009000+08:00","text":"這不也是以前很多國民黨委\n員們的主張，中華民國自強不息，要自立自強的自立及自主的這個部分嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:32:18.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:32:26.153000+08:00","text":"所以我們一直在強\n調，無人載具跟反無人載具不能夠只靠外購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:32:26.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:32:56.776000+08:00","text":"我們這一次看到中東的戰爭已經非常明顯了，那\n一些中東國家、比較富有的國家，大量跟美國採購防空系統、武器、無人載具的國家，在面臨\n其他敵情威脅的時候，沒有辦法迅速的向外面獲得支援，所以自立自主的國防產業是非常重要\n的，對無人載具來說也是如此，特別是無人載具沒有辦法只依靠外援來滿足我們對無人載具的\n需求，所以為什麼我們要有特別條例也是如此。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:32:57.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:33:20.167000+08:00","text":"當然馬委員說要把它放到每年的年度預算，但\n我還是要強調，因為這個新型的軍事投資，其每年的預算是有限的，在國防部的報告裡面，不\n管是機密還是非機密的報告都有很清楚地寫出來，大概最多就是多 84 億，只有 84 億元的話，\n你怎麼樣去扶植國內自主的產業？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:33:20.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:33:25.369000+08:00","text":"這個是我們比較擔心的部分，也希望在野黨委員能夠來支持\n。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:33:26.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:33:34.672000+08:00","text":"針對中小企業，因為現在在民雄航太園區有做很多商務的徵詢，他們最擔心的就是不敢開產\n線，為什麼不敢開產線？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T15:33:34.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:06.452000+08:00","text":"因為他不知道明年還有沒有軍事的需求，特別是無人載具，它主要的\n需求來源就是來自於國防，所以這個部分，我還是希望在野黨委員能夠去思考一下，特別是中\n部的產業，其實跟無人載具也有直接的關係，所以也希望陳總召……你想想看臺中，因為你們\n有很大的工業基礎，所以對臺中人來講，無人載具是極端重要的，必須要把預算上限儘量地往\n上來提高，我們一起往這個共識去走。謝謝。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:06.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:07.893000+08:00","text":"牛煦庭委員請發言，沈伯洋委員請準備。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:09.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:09.313000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:11.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:34.324000+08:00","text":"面對一場協商，大家總要預判一下協商的氛圍、走向以及最後這個法案到\n底要用什麼樣的方式來處理，如果有機會達成共識，互相保留一些善意，我覺得總是有必要的\n，這也就是為什麼在在野黨的各種版本裡面有各種不一樣的數字，我希望大家是用一個保留空\n間，大家可以各自求取共識的大方向來看待這件事情。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:34.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:46.513000+08:00","text":"但剛剛我們聽民進黨幾個代表的發言，\n協 18\n甚至講到他們非常堅持 1.25 兆的時候，那很有可能政治處理的空間就統統被壓縮掉了，然後其\n他人再去講、去挖苦說，你這個數字很多，到底是哪一套的版本？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:46.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:48.334000+08:00","text":"那不也就失去意義了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:48.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:59.121000+08:00","text":"我\n覺得大家應該要靜下心來想一想我們到底要怎麼解決現在這個僵局吧，如果大家還是流於立場\n的表述，甚至情緒性的發言，我想對於協商達成共識就不會有任何的幫助了。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-23T15:34:59.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:34:59.441000+08:00","text":"以上發言，謝謝\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:00.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:02.263000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:02.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:04.164000+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:04.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:18.334000+08:00","text":"我乾脆接續剛剛牛委員的發言，因為現在這條最主要是討論金額，我先講一個技術性\n的問題，剛剛國民黨已經提出一個新的第五條，然後他不是把幾個跟公務預算有關的移走了嗎\n？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:18.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:23.369000+08:00","text":"他移走的話，現在這一個金額是要重新試算嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:23.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:28.771000+08:00","text":"還是什麼之類的，我覺得這是一個技術性問\n題，既然這一條我們要討論金額的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:29.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:46.435000+08:00","text":"第二個，我想要提的事情是，為什麼剛剛我們有提到 1.25 兆不能打折，因為它是一個 package\n，我講個非常簡單的例子，也順便回應剛剛馬委員講的，假設我們今天要買防空的武器，但是\n我們不買防空的系統，這不是很奇怪嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:46.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:35:49.456000+08:00","text":"就是你手跟腳都有了，但是你不要那個大腦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:35:50.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:36:04.461000+08:00","text":"如果有\n去參加機密會議的話，應該就可以知道那個大腦占這整個預算也沒有多少，但它就是一套的，\n就是說，不可能你買了這個可以偵測的，然後你不買發射的；或者你買了發射的，不買偵測的\n，結果你不買可以啟動的，這一定就是一組的嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:36:07.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:36:13.425000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼 1.25 兆很難打折的原因，因為\n它是一整套不對稱戰力的設計。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:36:13.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:36:38.295000+08:00","text":"剛剛馬委員也有提到，他也關心國內的產業發展，這個剛剛冠\n廷委員也有提到，國內的產業發展中，無人載具看起來是非常重要的一環，如果無人載具沒有\n一定的年限，你沒有辦法去刺激那個產業在各地，不管在臺中、在嘉義去蓬勃發展，所以這就\n是為什麼我們覺得 1.25 兆是一個 package、非常重要的原因。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:36:41.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:36:43.936000+08:00","text":"請國防部顧部長發言完畢後，再請馬文君委員。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:36:45.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:36:45.257000+08:00","text":"顧部長請表達意見，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:36:46.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:38:03.261000+08:00","text":"我簡要回應幾點，第一點，剛剛馬委員也提到，未來兩、三年是我們付款高峰期，我\n們的報告裡面也提到，我們每年軍事投資的金額扣掉持續案之後，能夠新增項目的軍事投資的\n金額是有限的，我們也跟委員做過報告，後續我們並不是把所有都放在特別預算案，我們後續\n的新增案包括滑射式的天劍二型、天弓三型的續購、陸射劍二防空飛彈的續購、雄二/雄三反艦\n飛彈的續購，還有相關包括夜視鏡、跑滑道搶修設備等等，我們總需求高達七百億餘元之多，\n所以我們本來就是規劃我們的年度預算應該也有一個適度的成長，但是我們會考量行政院整體\n的總預算會不會因為年度預算產生了排擠，造成我們沒有辦法將我們希望的新增案項納入年度\n預算，而因此一直在等、不斷地在遞延，因為這樣，所以才會希望有一個特別預算。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:38:04.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:38:24.407000+08:00","text":"現在國民\n黨的委員有一個論點，意思就是只要軍購的，不需要委製跟商購的，但是剛剛馬委員也提到了\n海空戰力特別提升那個案子，其實全部都是委製案，也就是屬於國內委製的案子，所以不能夠\n說國內委製的案項不重要。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:38:25.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:38:51.353000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，我們在公開版本事實上也特別提到防空的部分，需要\n高高空攔截的強弓飛彈，這個部分也擺在特別預算案裡面，跟其他部分有搭配，而這個部分在\n協 19\n機密專報有做過完成的說明。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:38:54.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:39:05.621000+08:00","text":"再講一下 1 兆 2,500 億的規模是如何形成的？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:39:08.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:39:27.076000+08:00","text":"每一個所形成的作戰運用是整體的規劃，整體的\n規劃不外就涉及到兩件事情，一是不對稱戰力的形成，另一就是防衛韌性，把這兩個成為一個\n主軸，我們來把每一個案項完整說明。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:39:28.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:39:38.166000+08:00","text":"按照現在國民黨黨團跟民眾黨黨團所提出第五條修正案\n的結果，這五項事實上只涵蓋了美國已經知會國會的這幾個案項。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:39:41.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:40:00.920000+08:00","text":"如果就限這五項，事實上，\n這幾個案項加起來的金額相當有限，也就是大家已經都認知的金額，大概 110 億美金，這個金額\n顯然不足以涵蓋後面可能再有的金額。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:40:01.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:40:16.490000+08:00","text":"我們也整個完整的說明了……我再舉一個例子，有關無\n人載具，太平洋司令 Paparo 已經講得非常清楚，他一再強調無人載具的重要性。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:40:18.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:40:34.863000+08:00","text":"這件事情不是\n我們要單純的國防自主而已，而是整個防衛作戰需求重要的部分，如果沒有建立這樣的國防自\n主產業，從俄烏戰爭看起來，我們完全沒有韌性可言，所以是環繞在這個地方。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:40:35.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:40:52.602000+08:00","text":"更何況就強調\n，國防部作為一個最大的需求單位，有必要藉這個特別預算作為經費穩定的來源，編列之後能\n夠讓從事這個產業的人有信心。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:40:53.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:41:04.437000+08:00","text":"另外，我要特別強調一下，大家要注意到我們在機密專報一再提到臺美共同研發及採購合作\n裝備系統，這個部分也要務必要考慮在裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:41:06.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:41:38.393000+08:00","text":"我很希望有來聽我們完整規劃的委員應該可以理\n解，1 兆 2,500 億是怎麼產生出來的，除非你要具體的認為……我建議用刪去法，如果你能夠講\n你認為哪一個不重要要把它刪去，基於表決最後的立場，你把它刪掉，我們沒有意見。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:41:40.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:41:58.677000+08:00","text":"我們現\n在的立場一定還是堅持 1 兆 2,500 億，這是我們的立場，如果你們的立場是認為要刪掉，要刪掉\n什麼項目，必須要有一個講法，因為你刪掉那個項目就表示我們不能編那個預算，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:41:58.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:42:06.299000+08:00","text":"所\n以你要刪掉哪個項目，你要先有一個前提確定，而不是喊一個價格，喊一個價格之後，項目呢\n？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:42:07.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:42:36.050000+08:00","text":"如果按照第五條，現在交給我手上的項目，金額就是 110 億美金，看起來就是這個金額，因為\n只有這五項已經知會國會的項目，我們顯然沒有辦法接受！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:42:37.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:42:45.934000+08:00","text":"我只是一再強調，1 兆 2,500 億是怎\n麼出來的，我們在機密專報講得非常清楚，希望能夠獲得全部的支持。","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:42:46.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:42:56.759000+08:00","text":"個別的預算項目拿到立\n法院，再由立法院審議，立法院審議認為不應該編入特別預算，自然還是可以砍掉，對不對？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:42:56.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:06.087000+08:00","text":"我們還是堅持這部分我們是有整體規劃的，特別條例的部分，我們整個能力建構是完整的，希\n望大家能夠支持這樣完整的能力建構。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:43:06.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:10.628667+08:00","text":"顧部長，給你講了，大家的心情都沉重起來，深呼吸，保持微笑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:43:10.628667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:15.170333+08:00","text":"好，我知道顧部長心情非\n常沉重，馬委員，你講完之後，我要先作一個宣告了，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:43:15.170333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:19.712000+08:00","text":"請簡短扼要，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:43:19.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:49.767000+08:00","text":"好，首先我回應一下國防自主，不是今天有特別預算編列的時候或者特別條例通過的\n時候才有的，這個已經講很久了，國防自主大家都非常重視，不管是我們自己的飛機、潛艦，\n還有我們所有的彈藥，大家都說國防自主，我們講了很久，而且我們也持續在做，除非我們否\n定之前大家所做的國防自主的努力，或者我們認為它根本沒有效果，不然我們一直以來都在做\n國防自主，這是第一點。","quality":0.994},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:43:49.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:43:54.511000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果很重要的話，像我們剛剛提到有這麼多、這麼重要，包括我們的無人機、無人\n載具這麼重要的話，我們今年的國防預算是有史以來最高的，可是這麼重要的東西卻沒有放進\n公務預算，到底是為什麼？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:08.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:44:10.703000+08:00","text":"公務預算到底編列了哪些，所以排擠了這些？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:10.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:44:13.505000+08:00","text":"現在一直叫在野黨說\n協 20\n我們覺得哪些不重要、要把它刪掉，你當時覺得那麼重要的，為什麼你沒有把它編入公務預算\n，反過來問我們哪些要刪掉？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:13.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:44:14.045000+08:00","text":"我們怎麼知道哪些應該是輕重緩急？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:14.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:44:14.345000+08:00","text":"這個應該是國防部去評估的\n。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:14.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:44:15.226000+08:00","text":"另外剛剛還有提到，我們的防空武器跟防空系統都要一併考量。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:44:34.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:45:04.452000+08:00","text":"我們看到這一次美方同意的\n軍售項目，不管是 M109A7 自走砲，還有海馬士，還有反裝甲無人機飛彈系統、拖式飛彈跟標\n槍飛彈，這個我們過去都有買，所以不會現在他突然要增加賣給你的時候，你才有系統的需求\n，以前就應該要有，所以為什麼是……這些都已經買過而且剛結案而已，拖式飛彈跟標槍飛彈\n分別是前年跟去年剛剛結案，我們都有買，現在只是增購，他又要多賣給我們，你當時為什麼\n沒有想到系統？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:45:04.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:45:05.192000+08:00","text":"現在提出特別條例要通過的時候，你才說這個系統很重要，那以前都在做什麼\n？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:45:26.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:45:28.948000+08:00","text":"你都沒有做，然後都沒有考量嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:45:28.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:45:34.269000+08:00","text":"我們的軍事預算本來就是 5 年的建軍規劃，你本來就應該\n想到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:45:34.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:10.571000+08:00","text":"所以就這些部分，我們覺得當你在說自主的時候，請大家思考看看，我們最近一直提到彈藥\n的部分，我們看到美國，包括他自己去打伊朗，他兩天打掉他一年的彈藥量，我們本來雄系列\n的這些飛彈，也是號稱甚至連美國都做不出來，可是我們當時說因為我們的產能不足，所以我\n們編了大筆的預算，還用插隊的方式去買了魚叉飛彈，就是因為他說我們做不了，所以當時買\n了魚叉飛彈。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:10.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:21.734000+08:00","text":"今天也是，你在這麼急的情況之下，彈藥其實是非常重要的，如果是國防自主的\n話，為什麼最近編了那麼多的預算是外購的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:23.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:25.435000+08:00","text":"這個反而是國防部應該要解釋清楚的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:25.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:37.799000+08:00","text":"如果你要\n國防自主的話，我們到時候彈藥的需求量才是大的，這個部分為什麼我們自己有產線、以前都\n能做的，但我們現在花大錢不斷的外購？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:37.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:40.659000+08:00","text":"當你說自主的時候，應該要先把這些解釋清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:41.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:46:48.641000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我想這一條我們就不再討論，我們先保留起來，回頭我們在二輪的時候再來討論\n，因為顯然還沒有辦法達成共識。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:46:48.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:47:05.736000+08:00","text":"我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第六條，在對照表第 34 頁，有關收支規劃、財務計畫的條文，\n請提案的台灣民眾黨團發言好嗎？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:47:05.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:47:06.636000+08:00","text":"34 頁，你們所提的，現在是第六條……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:47:06.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:47:06.716000+08:00","text":"第六條吧？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:47:21.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:47:50.313000+08:00","text":"好，我們的版本第六條規定「政府依本條例籌編第一期預算時，應考量本條例施行期\n間我國人口年齡結構變動因素之影響，審慎規劃收支額度及中長程財務計畫，衡量國家歲入負\n擔能力以因應高齡化及少子女化對編列預算財政衝擊。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:47:50.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:47:59.799000+08:00","text":"」最主要我們是考量特別預算對我們預\n算衝擊的因素，以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:01.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:02.040000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團的發言。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:02.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:02.261000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員請發言。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:05.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:08.239000+08:00","text":"第六條當時有討論過，所以我就簡要發言即可。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:09.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:23.233000+08:00","text":"從剛剛的脈絡順下來，什麼是公務預\n算、什麼是特別預算，我覺得有些人好像並不是那麼清楚，不然的話，按照剛剛很多發言就是\n全部都變公務預算也就可以了，我覺得這是不合理的事。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:23.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:25.014000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們到二輪時您再發言……\n協 21","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:27.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:36.938000+08:00","text":"第六條這邊講的是你要顧慮到比如說人口結構、中長程規劃等等，就是因為顧慮到這\n些，所以才訂特別條例啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:37.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:41.880000+08:00","text":"如果今天我們都全部用公務預算的話，就會擠壓到其他預算嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:42.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:48:49.623000+08:00","text":"包\n括教文、衛福等等之類的，就是因為顧慮到這件事情，所以才訂特別條例。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-23T15:48:50.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:06.729000+08:00","text":"所以簡單來講，第\n六條就是把為什麼它是特別條例重新寫一遍，但是因為它就是一個特別條例，這樣寫跟不寫其\n實是一模一樣的，這就是為什麼要訂特別條例的精神，這也是剛剛在很多討論的時候，我看大\n家就一直講公務跟特別，可能就是一直搞不清楚這兩個的分界啦！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:08.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:09.850000+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團對第六條沒有意見嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:12.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:13.251000+08:00","text":"應該沒有意見嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:13.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:17.693000+08:00","text":"第六條沒有增加的必要性啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:19.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:20.555000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請表達意見好嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:21.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:23.297000+08:00","text":"針對台灣民眾黨黨團所提的第六條，沒有意見的話我們就……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:23.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:26.179000+08:00","text":"院長，請主計總處說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:26.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:28.720000+08:00","text":"有，他說他已經規劃了，主計總處都已經有規劃。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:30.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:31.662000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請表達意見。謝謝。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-23T15:49:31.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:49:58.893000+08:00","text":"我認為第六條其實立意相當良善，的確不管是一般預算還是特別預算，錢就是\n錢，國家的預算本來收入就有限，當然我們知道國際情勢詭譎多變，如果我們沒有在比例上面\n有一定程度拿捏的話，其實對於全國國民及所有事情的支出跟福利而言是蠻不妥的，所以我覺\n得這個放在裡面是一件好事。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T15:50:04.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:50:25.014000+08:00","text":"報告院長及各位協商的立法委員，這段文字和行政院所訂的中央及地方政府預算\n籌編原則的文字完全一樣，這個原則是根據預算法第三十二條的授權由行政院訂定，就是說行\n政院現在所訂的中央及地方政府預算籌備原則（不是只有中央，而是包括中央和地方政府的預\n算籌編原則）和這些文字完全一樣。","quality":0.341},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T15:50:36.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:50:53.958000+08:00","text":"其實現在在編預算都有考慮到國家各方面的需要，8 年 1.25\n兆，一年就是 1,563 億，而我們的總預算跟特別預算一年大概 3.4 兆，所以占的比例事實上是不\n高。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T15:50:55.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:51:10.868000+08:00","text":"國防部提出來這些的時候，主計總處衡量國家資源的使用是政府可以負擔的，政府會考慮\n到少子化、老年化還有淨零轉型各方面的需要，這在預算籌編原則裡面都訂得很清楚。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T15:51:11.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:51:18.854000+08:00","text":"基於其\n他特別條例也都沒有這些文字，而且現在已經在實施了，所以是不是可以不用列進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:51:24.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:51:32.384000+08:00","text":"第一個，條文規定「籌編第一期預算時」，我並不清楚第一期預算指的是什麼意思，\n這是第一個文字問題。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:51:32.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:52:10.586000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛主計總處已經講了，就這一個條例本身而言，這應該是在\n總預算籌編的時候要去考量的，而不是這個特別條例本身要去考量的，在前面院長已經擱置的\n特別條例第五條裡面，我們已經提到它的總量，也就是舉債合計數不可以超過總預算及特別預\n算歲出總額合計數之 15%，然後一年期以上公共債務未償餘額預算數也要依公共債務法第五條\n第一項規定辦理，所以他已經依照公共債務法跟相關財政紀律法的規定做了考量。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:52:13.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:52:41.465000+08:00","text":"有關政府要\n如何去衡量這件事情，在特別條例裡面不應該再加上這樣子的條文，因為加上這樣子的條文，\n等於否定了前面所要編 8 年 1 兆 2,500 億的意旨，因為這個是屬於主計總處在編製行政院……甚\n至包括中央及地方總預算的時候要去考量的事項。協 22","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:52:41.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:52:58.711000+08:00","text":"民眾黨要加這樣子的條文，其實就是一句話──好，但是為什麼好卻不要編？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:52:59.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:53:33.291000+08:00","text":"因為如\n果要繼續這樣寫的話，本席作為立法院聯合國永續發展策進會的會長，我應該要請他們編列預\n算的時候也要注意對環境的衝擊，還有范雲委員對於性別議題的要求也可以寫進去，其實大家\n都可以寫，因為這是籌編原則，國家在編列任何特別預算或預算的時候，籌編原則裡面就會告\n訴你一定要注意財政會不會排擠、對財政的衝擊。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:53:34.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:07.025000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，如果民眾黨對於少子化跟高齡化這兩件事情特別重視，本席給你們一個建\n議，就是可以做一個附帶決議來凸顯貴黨對這件事情特別 care，否則的話，如果每個條例都要把\n籌備原則放進去，以後任何的條例只要牽扯到錢，都應該加這一條，所以本席才會這樣建議。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:07.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:23.442000+08:00","text":"不是說不對，而是這件事情可以做，如果要凸顯你們民眾黨特別 care、特別關心、特別重視，本\n席建議不用在條例裡面規定，你們可以做一個附帶決議，我想大家都會支持。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:24.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:29.589000+08:00","text":"本席一開始就跟\n你說「好」，如果你們做附帶決議，本席一定要求民進黨黨團全力支持這個附帶決議。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:29.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:29.629000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:29.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:30.030000+08:00","text":"陳清龍總召，您同意嗎？請。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:30.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:30.110000+08:00","text":"我補充一下。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:30.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:54:58.560000+08:00","text":"我們會增加這一條，絕對也是有我們的考量，就像剛剛蔡總召講的，預\n算資源有限，大家也知道，這樣的特別條例的籌編，未來也會排擠到其他預算，我們擔心的也\n是社福預算。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:54:59.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:55:18.706000+08:00","text":"我們台灣民眾黨也一直表達，這個特別條例通過之後，我們有要求國防部要每年\n做專報，預算也是原則上就一年一編，這個部分包括賴清德總統都同意。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:55:20.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:55:42.979000+08:00","text":"這樣的過程，就是整\n個在 8 年期間，根據這一條的原則，我們請國防部做專報的部分及預算一年一編的情況可以有\n所依據，這是我們增加這一條最主要的原則，我在這裡做這樣的補充。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:55:42.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:55:43.199000+08:00","text":"改為附帶決議，陳總召，您同意嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:55:43.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:55:44.120000+08:00","text":"對，我們就不用條文了，就不入法了，我們改為附帶決\n議，好嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:56:07.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:56:31.761000+08:00","text":"這個有連動，我們剛剛把我們這樣的原則已經敘明清楚，其實這個不影響我們剛剛保\n留那個深水區的部分，我覺得這個也是我們台灣民眾黨一直表達的，就是專報跟預算一年一編\n的原則。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:56:33.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:56:43.145000+08:00","text":"既然是協商，大家就展現善意，這個不影響未來 8 年的進度，我們就把這個留著，好\n不好？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T15:56:43.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:56:45.826000+08:00","text":"就不要再有意見了，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:56:46.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:56:48.107000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團許宇甄委員表達意見。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-23T15:56:48.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:57:12.014000+08:00","text":"我想今年我們的國防預算九千多億已經是史上最高，而且再加上特別條例一千多億，\n其實已經上兆了，再加上這次的軍購特別條例，未來還要支出非常多，所以確實我們認為有必\n要審慎地規劃財政的收支跟財政的計畫，以確保財政的健全，所以我們認為這條應該要保留。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:57:14.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:57:19.857000+08:00","text":"我們現在沒有辦法達成共識，這條條文先保留，等一下再來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:57:21.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:57:22.338000+08:00","text":"主席，我只是想提醒一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:57:23.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:57:34.824000+08:00","text":"這個文字不管怎麼看都怪怪的，「政府依本條例籌編第一期預算時，應考量……」，\n協 23\n所以籌編第二期的時候就不用了，它的意思是這樣子，這個文字怎麼看都不對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:57:35.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:57:47.597000+08:00","text":"如果這樣講的\n話，應該是說「政府籌編預算時，應考量……」，我覺得這句話，講白一點，這叫多此一舉，\n因為這個寫跟沒寫一樣。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:57:51.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:11.370000+08:00","text":"你現在說政府籌編預算時應考量什麼、什麼的，要做這樣的規定，我\n是覺得特別條例的預算已經對這八年做相關的考量了。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:14.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:15.424000+08:00","text":"已經考量了，我知道您的意思，好。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:15.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:18.286000+08:00","text":"所以這個文字的部分，我真的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:19.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:25.632000+08:00","text":"沒問題，現在已經保留三條條文，待會我們回頭再來討論。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:25.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:37.001000+08:00","text":"接下來我們進入行政院提案第六條，民眾黨提案第七條，國民黨黨團第七條，有關預算執行\n及審計，這個要請各黨團的代表發言。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:37.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:40.143000+08:00","text":"首先，我們請國防部做個說明，法務部請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:46.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:58.300000+08:00","text":"第六條就是依照向來特別條例的一個慣例，我們會寫清楚預算的執行，審計機關應依\n法辦理審計，所有相關審計應該適用的規範，就已經規範在這裡面了，所以我們是覺得這樣子\n寫應該就可以了。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:58:58.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:58:59.741000+08:00","text":"請法務部列席代表發言，請表達一下意見，謝謝。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:17.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:21.802000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:21.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:23.383000+08:00","text":"廖參事江憲：主席、各位委員。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:24.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:27.707000+08:00","text":"針對民眾黨版第五條第三項……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:27.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.149000+08:00","text":"第七條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.390000+08:00","text":"廖參事江憲：第七條？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.430000+08:00","text":"國民黨版？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:30.430000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:38.869000+08:00","text":"對，都是第七條，慢慢來，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T15:59:38.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T15:59:41.410000+08:00","text":"廖參事江憲：針對第七條預算執行的監督問題，關於政府機關執行預算的監督考核還有責任的追究\n，在現行的審計法上已經有完整的規定。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:00:04.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:00:20.507000+08:00","text":"依據審計法的規定，機關如果執行預算有違法失職，\n或者是執行績效低落的話，審計機關依照審計法就可以移送監察院調查、處理。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:00:21.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:00:39.554000+08:00","text":"國民黨版第七\n條第三項是規定，如果有違法失職的情形，導致執行績效低落的話，應將執行機關首長及相關\n主管移送監察院調查懲戒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:00:40.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:01:16.584000+08:00","text":"依照監察法第六條跟第八條的規定，監察院追究、彈劾的對象是違\n法失職的人，但草案第三項是規定有違法失職情形的話，被移送的是機關的首長跟相關的主管\n，我們認為這樣的規定跟審計法還有監察法的規定，有不太契合的地方，我們在此提出來，請\n參考。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:01:16.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:01:42.050000+08:00","text":"關於這個事項，目前院版跟民眾黨版規定的用語是審計機關應依法審計，這是一個版本；國\n民黨版第七條第三項的規定則有剛剛講的問題存在，大概目前有這兩個方案。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:01:45.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:02:36.882000+08:00","text":"如果是依據院版\n還有民眾黨版的，審計機關依法審計，等於是回歸現行的審計法去處理；如果依國民黨版第七\n條第三項，如果是要往這個方向走的話，我們是建議「應將執行機關首長及相關主管」這句話\n可以考量拿掉，大前提是因為公務員違法失職，他已經界定了，而這個違法失職的公務員，本\n來就不限於他的層級跟角色，當然就包括首長跟相關主管，但如果首長跟相關主管沒有違法失\n職，那就不在被移送的行列裡面。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:02:37.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:17.578000+08:00","text":"另外，依據監察法的規定，監察院調查處理的結果，若是彈劾，也是要提到懲戒機關，至於\n是不是予以懲戒，必須要由懲戒法院依司法程序來審理，所以最後這邊規定移送監察院調查懲\n戒，那懲戒權是在懲戒機關，這個部分如果要採用這個版本，是建議移送監察院調查處理，就\n協 24\n是參考審計法的規定，這樣會跟監察法的規定比較相合。以上。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:18.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:19.159000+08:00","text":"謝謝法務部的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:19.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:21.660000+08:00","text":"我們請提案的民眾黨黨團發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:26.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:35.375000+08:00","text":"有關於我們民眾黨的第七條也就是行政院版的第六條，我們寫的內容比行政院版更清\n楚一些。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:36.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:45.018000+08:00","text":"除了要依法辦理審計之外，我們對流用的部分有做了一些特殊的規定，就是必須要經\n過立法院同意。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:46.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:03:51.903000+08:00","text":"另外就是「屆滿之日次年五月底前」的規定，那時候我們在委員會協商的時候\n，大家好像也沒有什麼太大的意見。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:03:52.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:02.650000+08:00","text":"最後一個就是軍工的部分，我們版本的第三項跟第四項是\n軍工的部分，因為在委員會討論的時候其實有專家有一些意見，所以我們也願意把這個部分暫\n時拿掉，就是第三項跟第四項這個軍工的部分。以上。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:02.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:03.650000+08:00","text":"民眾黨黨團的意思就是第一項、第二項保留，然後第三項、第四項拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:03.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:07.074000+08:00","text":"對，就是軍工的部分，包括工業合作、三千萬美元以上，把第三項跟第四項拿掉。","quality":0.452},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:13.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:14.098000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們接下來請提案的國民黨黨團表達意見。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:34.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:39.265000+08:00","text":"沒關係，可以稍微等一下，沒關係，請\n莊瑞雄委員發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:39.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:04:40.406000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:04:42.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:05:04.786000+08:00","text":"按照我個人的看法，沒有第六條也沒有關係，因為本來公務機關花了\n預算，在執行完以後，審計機關第一個本來就必須要依法去做審計，行政院提案的第六條當然\n是行禮如儀啦，其實大家不用去爭執這一條。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:05:05.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:05:21.415000+08:00","text":"第二個，你看台灣民眾黨黨團跟中國國民黨黨團的版本所提到的，主管機關依照預算法第六\n十三條去辦理流用的時候，應該經過立法院的同意，這個就又有一點侵害到行政權。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:05:23.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:05:32.285000+08:00","text":"按照預算\n法第六十三條規定，如果科目有賸餘，本來就可以流用，這其實是我們立法院的授權，是我們\n通過的法律。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:05:32.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:05:35.127000+08:00","text":"但是它其實是有額度，只有 20%而已，所以我倒是認為其實對第六十三條這個也\n不用計較。","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:05:35.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:05.714000+08:00","text":"第三個就有一點說笑了，7 月 31 號監察委員全部都已經卸任了，那我們這邊在審條例的時候\n，大家其實是有一點看不起監察院，認為監察院就不需要了，連提名也不通過，國民黨不推薦\n，民眾黨也不推薦，在第一輪的時候搞不好就全部封殺掉，監察院就變成空的。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:06.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:15.997000+08:00","text":"我們現在反而\n在這個條例裡面又賦予它好像是一個非常清高的位置，如果遇到什麼事情，立法院就說：來！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:15.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:18.578000+08:00","text":"監察院趕快來，用尚方寶劍殺下去！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:19.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:21.999000+08:00","text":"這個有一點點怪怪的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:22.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:29.001000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思就是說三黨再考慮一下，對這一條其實不用爭執，我們照行政院的版本就好了\n。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:29.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:40.627000+08:00","text":"要不然，就把這一條行政院版的、國民黨黨團的、台灣民眾黨黨團三個版本的條文全部都砍\n掉，我認為這個條文意義也沒有很大啦！","quality":0.566},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:40.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:51.657000+08:00","text":"以上說明，但是就行禮如儀，院版條例是這樣，我們\n一般本來就是這樣的規定，其實是無傷大雅。謝謝。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:51.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:06:52.478000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:06:52.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:14.136000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團先暫緩一下，我想請各黨團還有國防部聽一下我的意見，就是\n台灣民眾黨黨團所提的第七條上面所列的我們保留下來到第三項，我們把它刪掉，轉為加「每\n會期向立法院提出專案報告」，用這樣的方式。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:14.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:19.021000+08:00","text":"我來念一遍，請大家仔細聽一下，陳清龍總召\n，麻煩你要聽清楚，謝謝。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:20.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:28.146000+08:00","text":"建議的內容是：「本條例所列預算之執行，應依下列規定辦理：\n一、審計機關應依法辦理審計。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:28.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:33.730000+08:00","text":"協 25\n二、主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前，應經立法院同意。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:34.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:49.759000+08:00","text":"本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前，主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院，\n每會期向立法院提出專案報告。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:51.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:58.879000+08:00","text":"」這樣可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:58.879000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:07:59.879000+08:00","text":"流用的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:59.879000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:00.879000+08:00","text":"院長，流用本來預算法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:07:58.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:02.183000+08:00","text":"有啊，我們有啊，依預算法第六十三條流用前，應經立法院同意，這邊都有啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:02.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:06.289000+08:00","text":"但問題是預算法的規定，本來就是可以流用，20%的範圍裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:08.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:18.771000+08:00","text":"對，我知道，所以我們這邊加一句「每會期向立法院提出專案報告」，我想這樣就符合剛才\n王安祥委員所提出的，也符合蔡總召所提出的。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:19.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:23.455000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，大家先看一下，不要急著發言，這\n樣可不可以接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:23.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:25.601000+08:00","text":"不行，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:25.601000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:27.747000+08:00","text":"現在請不同意見的委員發言，請范委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:27.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:34.391000+08:00","text":"院長，關於流用的部分，請主計總處說明一下民眾黨版這個部分會造成的影響，好嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:38.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:08:58.860000+08:00","text":"報告院長、各位委員，預算法第六十三條是規定流用，剛剛有委員提到用途別科\n目，如果有一個科目不足，因為預算是一年多前編的，所以有 20%可以流用的空間，但嚴格規\n定不能流用到人事費，預算法是這麼規定。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T16:08:59.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:31.463000+08:00","text":"總預算在執行的時候，現在每年已經將近 3 兆，還\n有其他特別預算在執行的時候都有流用的彈性，因為你不可能在一年多以前預見未來所有的科\n目不會調整變動，所以只有在現在這個特別預算條例，才規定比總預算、其他特別預算還嚴格\n，我覺得不成比例、不成立法的比例，所以我們……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:31.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:34.646000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是不同意台灣民眾黨黨團這個版本？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"蔡副主計長鴻坤","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:34.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:35.646000+08:00","text":"對，我們建議不要納進去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:35.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:36.646000+08:00","text":"我了解，沒問題，我們大家一起來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:36.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:37.646000+08:00","text":"請馬文君委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:36.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:09:39.181000+08:00","text":"這一個部分我們不同意，因為這個不是一般預算，它是特別條例，本來就是針對特殊\n的一些項目，才編列特別條例及特別預算。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T16:09:39.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:10:00.970000+08:00","text":"在一般常態的預算裡面，如果不足的時候會有 20%\n的流用，讓我們在推動的時候不要窒礙難行。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T16:10:00.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:10:39.438000+08:00","text":"可是這個部分其實是很明確的，所以如果你要流\n用，因為這個是非常態的，經過立法院通過的特別條例或者特別預算，如果你要流用，他跟我\n們說很重要，又是對國防、國家安全非常重要的，照理說，如果你要流用就應該經過立法院同\n意，如果它合乎常理，而且是必要的，我覺得立法院不可能不同意，所以這個部分我們還是要\n求不可以隨便流用。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T16:10:39.438000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:10:45.965000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T16:10:45.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:10:57.194000+08:00","text":"我看國民黨的版本裡面沒有應經立法院同意，它是寫向立法院提出報告，\n是不是報告就好？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-04-23T16:10:57.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:11:14.667000+08:00","text":"因為再同意的話，就立法、行政的權力分立而言，好像行政權有點被侵害到\n，所以是不是國民黨說的專案報告即可，我覺得經過立法院同意好像不符合常理，也不符合剛\n才講的比例原則。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:11:18.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:11:32.990000+08:00","text":"我建議一下，因為這個在委員會有做過討論，可不可以這樣子，我們融合國民黨黨團\n協 26\n和民眾黨黨團的版本，第一個，第七條第一項還是可以列「本條例所列預算之執行，審計機關\n應依法辦理審計。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:11:32.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:11:35.011000+08:00","text":"」這是第一項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:11:35.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:11:46.157000+08:00","text":"第二項我們就納入國民黨版本的第一項「主管機關應專案列\n管及考核本條例所列計畫之執行，並將執行進度及績效，每會期向立法院提出專案報告。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:11:46.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:11:46.658000+08:00","text":"」這\n是第二項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:11:48.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:01.169000+08:00","text":"第三項就是國民黨版的第四項「主管機關及其上級機關，應依法執行並落實監督機\n制，確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:01.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:02.070000+08:00","text":"」這是第三項。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:02.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:12.497000+08:00","text":"第四項就加入民眾黨版的第二項「本條\n例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前，主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:13.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:17.891000+08:00","text":"」這樣\n就融合了國民黨版及民眾黨版的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:18.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:18.992000+08:00","text":"我剛剛的建議是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:20.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:21.334000+08:00","text":"部長現在端了一個八寶飯出來了，大家有沒有什麼寶貴意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:21.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:42.165000+08:00","text":"我們這邊也是覺得稍微有一點\n點複雜。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:42.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:52.947000+08:00","text":"簡單講，就是我們納入了國民黨版第一項、第二項、第四項，再加民眾黨版第二項。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:52.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:53.947000+08:00","text":"許宇甄委員，你還有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:53.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:54.947000+08:00","text":"請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-23T16:12:52.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:12:53.467000+08:00","text":"國民黨是堅持不得流用。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:07.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:13:10.658000+08:00","text":"來，我們在這邊第七條……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:11.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:13:12.280000+08:00","text":"院長，不好意思！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:12.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:13:14.923000+08:00","text":"我覺得還是要表達。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:14.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:13:32.021000+08:00","text":"我們最重要的還是流用的原則，並經立法院同意，其實就像剛剛莊委員講的，我們也\n了解預算法上可以流用，基本上一定會同意。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:32.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:13:58.698000+08:00","text":"我們會增加這一條，就是因為特別條例如果我們\n能夠協商成功，我們要購買的這些設備、品項，基本上都是很精準的，所以也不用去擔心這個\n流用要經過立法院同意會變成一個阻礙。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:13:59.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:14:27.109000+08:00","text":"當然部長很用心把民眾黨版本跟國民黨版本 combine 合\n併在一起，但我還是認為剛剛院長所提的修正內容，我覺得已經是最妥適的，我們可以接受剛\n剛院長所提的版本，好不好？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:14:28.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:14:28.569000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:14:29.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:14:34.495000+08:00","text":"讓秘書處這邊的作業人員先做，把文字先打出來，請大家看一下。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:14:35.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:14:46.785000+08:00","text":"現在有 A 跟 B\n，A 就是我剛才所唸的，B 就是顧部長剛剛擷取不同黨團之間大家所在乎的意見，把它文字化的\n處理。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:14:47.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:14:50.268000+08:00","text":"好，總共 A、B 兩個版本，請大家參考一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:14:58.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:15:02.177000+08:00","text":"院長，因為大家在參考，所以我表達一下意見啦！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:15:02.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:15:16.030000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛清龍兄所說的，預算法講的流用，這是大家在立法院審過預算的人都知道的\n，其實流用也沒有亂用啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:15:17.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:15:34.827000+08:00","text":"大家不要去誤解這樣的名詞，反而流用以總預算來講，總 total 根本\n就不會去做任何增加，流用也不是你要用到哪裡，就是用到哪裡，是要用在同一個工作計畫底\n下。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:15:35.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:15:45.011000+08:00","text":"甚至除了剛剛主計總處說的不能流為人事費用之外，連資本門都不能流到經常門裡面去，\n這一些其實是很專業的東西，流用的部分本來就有 20%的限制，預算法經立法院通過，變成是\n這樣。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:15:58.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:07.141000+08:00","text":"現在軍購特別條例裡面的部分，你又規定流用的部分還要再經過立法院通過，在我看來\n協 27\n其實都沒有必要啦！","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:07.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:11.964000+08:00","text":"所以你們才會講有需要根本就不會刁難，大家會講到這個地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:12.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:20.769000+08:00","text":"我是很中\n性的在談整個流用，院長剛才提的是兩個版本，所以我才會說這部分大家其實不用那麼堅持啦\n！","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:21.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:34.270000+08:00","text":"我就再一次說明流用真正的意義，供大家做一個參考。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:34.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:37.951000+08:00","text":"好，我們先保留起來，等一下文字作業完，發下去，我們再來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:37.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:39.591000+08:00","text":"我們現在開始繼\n續往前。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:40.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:50.494000+08:00","text":"現在進到國民黨團提案的第八條，有關第二階段特別條例的條文，請大家翻到第 38 頁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:50.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:16:51.855000+08:00","text":"麻煩\n請提案的國民黨團發言，請馬文君委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T16:16:51.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:17:08.091000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-04-23T16:17:08.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:17:36.062000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，我們考量到不管是對美軍購，其實那時候一直有提到美方可\n能也會陸續同意出售一些相關的武器裝備等等，我們也希望在這裡可以讓國防部有比較大的運\n用空間，所以特別提出本條，謝謝。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:17:36.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:17:38.263000+08:00","text":"謝謝，國民黨團為了國防部著想。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:17:38.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:17:40.203000+08:00","text":"顧部長，你先表達一下意見，對增列第八條。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:17:40.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:18:03.559000+08:00","text":"我已經在說明了，他現在說等到還有發價書，我們就要再提一個特別條例，等特別條\n例通過以後，再提一個預算，從這一次拿到發價書的期程上來看，這明顯是緩不濟急，而且這\n也不符合我們過去計畫預算的概念。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:18:03.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:18:19.532000+08:00","text":"因為我們過去在得到美方的供售意願之後，我們就馬上提\n出預算案，都是在還沒有知會國會前，我們就可能送出；沒有知會國會前，我們就採機密預算\n的方式，知會國會之後就公開預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:18:20.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:18:30.197000+08:00","text":"這個本來就是要讓立法院有一個機會來審查預算案，不管\n是總預算還是特別條例的預算，應該都是採如此的精神。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:18:31.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:18:52.479000+08:00","text":"所以要再另外提一個特別條例，就等\n於這個條例裡面的金額，事實上就只有他們現在所提第五條這樣的金額了，等於就沒有任何加 N\n的概念存在在這裡面了，所以特別條例又涉及到第五條，沒有辦法這樣定。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:18:52.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:18:53.861000+08:00","text":"我了解，那就只有暫時保留了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:18:56.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:24.258000+08:00","text":"好的，現在請大家回過頭來看剛剛手上發給各位的，我們回到行政院所提的第六條，台灣民\n眾黨黨團所提、國民黨黨團提的第七條 A，我們順過條次，現在變成 A、B 兩個版本，叫第八條\n，條次已經順好了。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:25.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:32.567000+08:00","text":"A 就是「本條例所列預算之執行，應依下列規定辦理：\n一、審計機關應依法辦理審計。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:32.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:36.891000+08:00","text":"二，主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前，應經立法院同意。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:37.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:47.818000+08:00","text":"本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前，主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院，\n每會期向立法院提出專案報告。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:48.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:52.540000+08:00","text":"」\n這就是陳清龍總召剛剛所提的，我嘗試性的跟大家報告。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:19:56.681000+08:00","text":"再來就是 B 版，剛剛顧部長所提的，融合不同的黨團之間的意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:19:56.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:03.245000+08:00","text":"第八條這條有好幾個黨團\n的想法都在裡面，請大家仔細聽一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:03.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:08.148000+08:00","text":"「本條例所列預算之執行，審計機關應依法辦理審計。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:08.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:17.715000+08:00","text":"主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計畫之執行，並將執行進度及績效，每會期向立法院\n提出專案報告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:19.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:30.200000+08:00","text":"主管機關及其上級機關，應依法執行並落實監督機制，確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:30.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:39.846000+08:00","text":"本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前，主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:43.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:47.990000+08:00","text":"協 28\n」\n請各黨團表達一下意見，現在顯然 A 版的第一項第二款流用的部分是有爭議的。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:47.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:20:49.278000+08:00","text":"部長，沒問題，請表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:20:49.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:21:22.219000+08:00","text":"我只是多說一句話，就是關於流用這個部分，或許我們不會去流用，但是依照我從一\n個法律人的角度來看，預算法第六十三條本來就是授權行政機關，如果我們在這裡創下先例要\n經過立法院同意的話，其實是有一點違背了預算法第六十三條的授權原則，有違反權力分立原\n則。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:21:25.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:21:44.557000+08:00","text":"當然這不應該是我要講的，從我國防部的立場，但是我還是稍微……事實上，如果種下…\n…我覺得如果立了這樣的例子以後，大家同意的話，這個流用要經過立法院同意這件事情，事\n實上是超越預算法第六十三條的立法本旨。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:21:53.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:22:04.772000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼會把流用定在這邊，最主要就是國防部過去有一個應該是不太好的案例。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:22:06.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:22:34.600000+08:00","text":"之前立法院曾經針對國防部的預算，同意他去買 F-16 的戰機預算，結果國防部把它流用去買獵\n雷艦，這件事情其實當初立法院也不曉得，就是因為金額很龐大，流用 20%那個金額是很龐大\n的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:22:35.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:22:59.018000+08:00","text":"所以明明我們立法院同意他去買 A，他說會流用，他去買 B，是有這樣的一個案例，所以我\n們為什麼要在這一條特別就流用作此規定的用意，是因為他們過去有紀錄。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:22:59.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:23:01.535500+08:00","text":"好的、好的，謝謝陳總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:23:01.535500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:23:04.053000+08:00","text":"許宇甄委員，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-04-23T16:23:04.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:23:38.015000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，針對這一條，其實國民黨很堅持，既然大家對於軍購的條例這麼重視，我\n們認為執行率絕對不能出問題，所以在這過程中一定要有責任追究的相關問題，尤其是我們希\n望當執行成效低於核定進度 50%的時候，要將執行機關的首長及相關主管移送監察院調查的原\n因，就是因為目前懲處的都是基層人員，真正下指令跟真正做決策的首長及相關主管都不會受\n到懲處，所以針對這一條，國民黨黨團堅持要用這樣的版本。好。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:23:42.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:23:48.964000+08:00","text":"我嘗試把 A、B 兩個版本再融合一次，大家來聽聽看，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:23:49.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:23:56.550000+08:00","text":"先不要急著發言，我再\n把它組合一下，大家再來表達一下意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:23:56.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:24:06.798000+08:00","text":"第八條這邊，如果各黨團幹部同意，國防部也同意的\n話，規定為「本條例所列預算之執行，應依下列規定辦理：一、審計機關依法辦理審計。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:24:06.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:24:11.061000+08:00","text":"二、\n主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前，應經立法院同意。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:24:12.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:24:33.301000+08:00","text":"」下面就接剛才國防部顧部長所\n提的第二項「主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例……」，這是第二項；第三項「主管機關及其\n上級機關應依法執行並落實監督……」；第四項「本條例施行屆滿之日次年 5 月底前，主管機\n關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院。","quality":0.74},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:24:34.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:24:49.472000+08:00","text":"」這樣我們就把 A 版跟 B 版融合起來，流用的\n部分也照國民黨黨團跟台灣民眾黨黨團的意見，我們把它放在這邊，併在一起，這樣大家有沒\n有意見？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:24:49.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:25:00.838000+08:00","text":"我們也已經請教過法制局的意見，這完全沒有違反權力分立的問題，我們這邊表達地\n非常清楚，可以把流用部分保留起來。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:25:00.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:25:01.279000+08:00","text":"林沛祥委員請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:25:03.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:25:20.780000+08:00","text":"報告主席，我們認為針對這個案子，因為我們過去有太多的經驗，有關這個執行度、\n執行進度不到位的狀況，所以國民黨黨團要求有關送監察院調查、懲戒的部分必須保留。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-04-23T16:25:22.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:25:39.763000+08:00","text":"在第\n協 29\n七條，國民黨的版本第 2 頁有有關執行進度不到位的時候送監察院審查的部分，因為剛剛許宇\n甄委員有提到，目前因為執行進度不佳而被檢討的通常都是比較基層的承辦人員……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:25:41.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:25:57.475000+08:00","text":"林書記長，這樣的話就沒有辦法再談下去，因為本來想請大家看一下 A、B 兩版，如果你一\n定要再回到保留第三項監察機構的部分的話，這顯然要沒辦法達成共識了，大家是不是要思考\n一下？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:25:58.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:01.638000+08:00","text":"我剛剛把 A、B 兩版融合起來，大家應該都能接受吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:03.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:04.140000+08:00","text":"范雲委員您不要急著發言，好不好？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:04.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:04.620000+08:00","text":"稍\n微等一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:05.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:08.903000+08:00","text":"大家能不能接受 A、B 兩版融合起來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:08.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:12.506000+08:00","text":"可以的話，我們就確定，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:12.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:27.273000+08:00","text":"如果你現在堅持監察院、審計機關的話，這個我們談不下去，這個肯定沒辦法談，是不是大\n家能考量一下，就照我剛才最後一次所宣讀的那樣，可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:28.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:28.573000+08:00","text":"傅總召請發言。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:31.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:44.323000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，本席一直不想發言，不過這也是非常重要的一個核心問題，為什麼是一個\n核心的問題？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:44.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:26:46.684000+08:00","text":"為什麼會用特別預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:26:48.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:27:14.147000+08:00","text":"就是非常迫切、非常急切要來實施，尤其在國防這方面，\n所以各個政黨都是基於我們國防的要求，然後在這裡透過舉債的方式，而不在我們年度預算裡\n面編列，透過舉債的方式提出這一份非常特殊的特別預算。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:27:15.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:27:33.943000+08:00","text":"但是這個特別預算執行了以後，我\n們必須要強調，因為就現在大家協議要通過的條文裡面，最後考核往往都是基層人員被考核。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:27:35.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:27:54.473000+08:00","text":"我們以現在所發生的情況來看，目前立法院已經通過的預算，錢已經付了，執行到現在還有\n7,000 億的武器沒有進來，所以這個執行率是非常值得商榷的。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:27:56.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:28:16.655000+08:00","text":"而我們不希望，在三黨大家共同\n為了我們國防需求的情況，共同來這裡協議通過特別條例，結果最後在執行方面卻讓國人失望\n，所以還是必須要有一套究責的機制。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:28:18.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:28:33.956000+08:00","text":"我想今天不管我們是執政黨或在野黨，我相信這個都是\n很有必要的，今天如果民進黨在野的話，一定會非常強調這個一定要入法。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:28:35.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:28:55.040000+08:00","text":"我們換位思考，這\n是一個最基本的監督機制，如果把這個監督機制拿掉了以後，未來這麼重要、迫切的特別預算\n，其責任承擔跟究責機制到底在哪裡？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:28:57.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:29:07.689000+08:00","text":"我在這裡把國民黨的立場講得很清楚，當時我們提出本\n條例第八條的內容是因為這個情況。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:29:09.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:29:34.566000+08:00","text":"我想過去民進黨在野時提出的林林總總，我們就不一一贅述，從毒豬、毒牛、零檢出講到現\n在，當時的要求是如何，我們現在都不予追究，但是最重要的，這是國防安全的部分，絕對不\n能沒有究責機制，我想這個部分應該要釐清。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:29:40.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:02.145000+08:00","text":"現在各位手上新拿到的，就是我剛剛念出來融合不同政黨之間大家所在意、重視的，都併在\n這個條文，現在國民黨團又提出來還是要堅持原提案的第三項，但是法務部剛才廖參事也表達\n了一些不同意見。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:02.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:14.012000+08:00","text":"所以我在思考的是，如果各黨團能夠同意這個合併的條文，這個條文我們就\n確定了；如果不能同意的話，我們就必須要休息，大家再來協商。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:14.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:16.673000+08:00","text":"我再念一下條文，大家再來看一看，好不好？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:19.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:24.709000+08:00","text":"第八條「本條例所列預算之執行，應依下列規","quality":1},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:25.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:28.591000+08:00","text":"一、審計機關應依法辦理審計。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:28.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:33.412000+08:00","text":"二、主管機關依預算法第六十三條辦理流用前，應經\n立法院同意。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:33.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:36.534000+08:00","text":"」這個就完全符合國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團的要求了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:37.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:46.178000+08:00","text":"再來「主管機關應專案列管\n及考核本條例所列計畫之執行，並將執行進度及績效，每會期向立法院提出專案報告。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:47.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:30:56.281000+08:00","text":"主管機\n關及其上級機關，應依法執行並落實監督機制，確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:30:56.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:06.224000+08:00","text":"本條例施行\n協 30\n屆滿之日次年五月底前，主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告，並送立法院。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:06.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:10.725000+08:00","text":"」我想這個應\n該大家各黨團可以接受吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"定辦理","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:11.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:14.306000+08:00","text":"如果可以的話，第八條……\n傅總召，請發言。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:14.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:35.006000+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得這樣子，因為剛剛特別清楚，國民黨黨團必須把我們當時提出本條例這\n一條的主要意旨說明清楚，但是基本上基於議事和諧，我們還是尊重主席的裁示，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:35.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:37.246000+08:00","text":"第八條如果大家沒有意見，我們就通過了，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:37.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:44.706000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，院長，我還要再講一下，因為我擔心大家誤解，你知道嗎？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:46.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:31:56.671000+08:00","text":"根據預算法\n第六十三條，流入跟流出本來就是 20%，為什麼立法院要對預算法做這樣的規定？","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:31:59.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:02.013000+08:00","text":"就是不要讓\n你增加預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:02.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:09.496000+08:00","text":"我們在編總預算一定是這樣子，編總預算一定是編下一年度的，比如今年就編明\n年的預算，先編列讓你花用。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:09.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:27.968000+08:00","text":"預算法第六十三條的規定是在講，在同一個工作計畫底下的項目\n，流入跟流出的範圍就只有這 20%裡面，這個本來就是我們立法院要求人家這樣子的，行政部\n門要做事情、要花錢，有剩的就剩這 20%，流入、流出不能超過 20%。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:27.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:29.850000+08:00","text":"我們現在又這樣規定，\n因為一個個案就會顛覆掉過去整個預算法第六十三條所謂流用的規定。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:29.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:30.951000+08:00","text":"大家想得太嚴肅了，這\n一條不用這樣規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:30.951000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:49.845000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的補充說明，現在大家如果同意的話，第八條我們就確定了，我們現在進入\n……主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:32:49.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:32:55.168000+08:00","text":"本來其實莊瑞雄委員已經講了，但因為傅總召剛剛也講了，所以本席也要表達一下民\n進黨的立場。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:33:14.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:33:26.500000+08:00","text":"公務人員依法行政，所以我們的預算法第六十三條規定 20%的流用，這個叫做法\n律，國民黨的立場認為究責很重要，其實本席完全同意。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:33:26.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:33:34.185000+08:00","text":"我不覺得究責……特別是這麼重大、\n大筆的預算，本席也覺得究責很重要。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:33:35.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:33:46.294000+08:00","text":"但如果就法論法，比較好的方式應該是我們要修預算法\n，因為監督很重要、究責很重要，其實不只有這個問題上面。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:33:47.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:34:14.027000+08:00","text":"但是如同傅總召剛剛所講的，因為我們的重點，今天我們在野的這些委員好朋友們，如果你\n們能通過 1.25 兆的預算，說實在話，究責很重要，特別他要在 20%……不是說不能用，你要流\n用之前要先來報告，其實我們可以為了這一個 1.25 兆，本席也願意為了和諧來支持。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:34:14.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:34:35.255000+08:00","text":"但是在立\n場上，我們還是要跟傅總召說清楚，國家給我們監督，如果我們覺得 20%是不對的，那朝野應\n該提預算法的修法，譬如說改成 15%、改成 10%，或者改成都不行，以後要流用都要來立法院\n，因為民脂民膏嘛，這個才是邏輯的一貫性。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-04-23T16:34:36.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:34:53.823000+08:00","text":"但是如同剛剛傅總召所講，國民黨很重視特別條例，所以如果能夠過 1.25 兆，讓國家的安全\n得以守護、得以保障，其實我們也願意……但我們的立場要說明清楚，我們也願意在院長的指\n示底下同意。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:34:54.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:34:56.364000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝蔡總召，我們等一下回頭再來到金額的部分。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:34:56.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:35:14.792000+08:00","text":"好，我們現在進入國民黨團所提案的第八條，第二階段特別條例的條文，請大家翻到第 38 頁\n，我們第八條條文就先保留。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:35:15.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:35:32.644000+08:00","text":"協 31\n我們現在進入最後一條條文，行政院提案的第七條、台灣民眾黨團提案的第八條、國民黨團\n提案的第九條，有關施行期間這一點，大家的意見似乎不太一致，我們請各黨團來發言。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:35:32.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:35:33.905000+08:00","text":"首先我們請國防部簡單扼要說明，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:35:38.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:36:18.763000+08:00","text":"國防部提出八年 1 兆 2,500 億，按照我們能夠籌獲的期限，分攤到八年，然後一年大\n概 1,560 億左右，大概是這樣子的預算規模分散在八年的期間，在編製相關的預算過程當中，都\n考慮到我們籌獲所需要的時間以及交運的期程等等，所以希望大院能夠予以支持，就是八年的\n期間。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:36:18.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:36:19.984000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:36:20.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:36:21.785000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨團也有提案，請表達意見。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-04-23T16:36:24.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:00.763000+08:00","text":"我們第八條的內容原則上跟行政院國防部的提案是一樣的，最重要的差異是本條例及\n其特別預算施行期滿未及執行部分，必要時，我們是得經立法院同意延長之，而行政院的院版\n是必要時，得經行政院核定延長，我們就是立法院同意，就這樣而已。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:00.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:01.063000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:01.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:02.745000+08:00","text":"國民黨團對台灣民眾黨團所提的經立法院延長到 122 年的部分，有沒有意見要表\n達？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:11.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:14.559000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，我們就同意台灣民眾黨團，我們就確定了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:14.559000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:17.100000+08:00","text":"請傅總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:17.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:18.981000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:18.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:37:39.970000+08:00","text":"我們還是要特別強調，國防部顧部長一直在講，我們也靜靜聽了兩個多小\n時，部長不斷強調會來不及、會來不及，既然這麼急迫，那怎麼會在我們通過了以後，還要用\n這麼長的時間去買？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:37:44.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:38:21.661000+08:00","text":"所以我們在這裡是建議，總統任期是到 2028 年，我們已經到 117 年 12 月……\n我很少引用賴總統講的話，他說 2027 臺海就有危機，所以迫切地要趕快通過這個條例，我們總\n不能說在 123 年武器才來，那怎麼面對 116 年的臺海危機？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:38:21.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:38:24.002000+08:00","text":"所以這個也是蠻耐人尋味的事情。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:38:26.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:38:39.153000+08:00","text":"既然這麼迫切，我們也這麼急著來審查，甚至我這裡再回應一下顧部長剛剛所提的，他說會\n來不及，我們就把立法院實際發生的狀況說一下。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:38:43.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:13.961000+08:00","text":"當 113 億美金的第一批發價書進來時，立法院\n立刻三黨同時簽字，授權國防部顧部長直接跟美國政府簽約，在條例還沒有制定以前、預算沒\n有編列以前，先授權你對美國直接簽署，只要有明確的發價書，我們就會授權簽署，而且這已\n經剛剛執行完畢。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:39:13.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:36.856000+08:00","text":"所以所有關於時間上來不及的問題，我想這個應該是有相當的誤會，因為看\n到這個期程到 122 年，我們從兩點討論到現在，都說很急迫、很急迫，最後發現是 122 年 12 月\n31 號。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-04-23T16:39:38.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:43.941000+08:00","text":"本席在這裡還是回到原來的那句老話，我尊重主席的裁示。謝謝。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:39:43.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:45.182000+08:00","text":"不好意思，民進黨黨團如果沒有意見的話，我們……\n請簡短，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:39:45.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:49.345000+08:00","text":"我想簡單回應一下，剛剛國民黨的委員有講到，如果國防自主這麼重要，是過去沒做好\n嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:39:49.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:39:52.147000+08:00","text":"無人機這麼重要，年度國防預算為什麼沒有放？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:03.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:07.937000+08:00","text":"還有這些武器過去都有買，為什麼是現在\n突然有系統需求？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:08.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:20.644000+08:00","text":"我簡單講，一般軟硬體每年都會常態性採購，同時每隔幾年也都會大升級，\n更何況國際情勢變化、國防科技日新月異。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:20.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:40.039000+08:00","text":"國防部已經告訴大家，戰力整建是持續性的工程，\n要讓敵方準備攻臺的時間不斷延後，所以我們認為國防部不管誰當部長，這整個對國防的維持\n，讓敵方不敢攻臺是重要的，因此必須要多年期。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:41.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:44.402000+08:00","text":"除了臺灣之外，歐洲、日本很多國家都在這\n協 32\n麼做。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:45.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:46.404000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:47.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:40:53.747000+08:00","text":"這一條我們現在就照台灣民眾黨黨團版本通過，就是本條例……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:40:57.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:05.853000+08:00","text":"我回應一下，這執行期限包括比如現在已經公開的海馬士多管火箭飛彈系統 82 套部\n分的執行期限，其交運的期程都要兼顧到……","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:06.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:08.755000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的版本跟國防部的立場一樣啊！對啊！","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:08.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:09.876000+08:00","text":"都要兼顧到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:09.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:15.019000+08:00","text":"我只是在說明整個執行的期限，不是在講單純我們什麼時候簽署發價書。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:15.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:16.580000+08:00","text":"好的、好的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:17.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:29.049000+08:00","text":"各位黨團如果同意的話，我們就照台灣民眾黨黨團所提的版本，第八條條例後面就是「經立\n法院同意延長之」，好不好？好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:29.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:41:34.953000+08:00","text":"我們現在休息，回過頭再來探討保留的四條條文，大家辛苦了，我們休息一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:41:34.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:01.900000+08:00","text":"休息（16 時 41 分）\n繼續開會（16 時 56 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:56:01.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:06.741000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，請坐；各位列席官員也請坐，我們繼續開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:56:06.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:25.244000+08:00","text":"我想要跟各位黨團幹部報告一下，也跟今天列席的官員報告一下，本案我們已經過充分溝通\n，還有四條保留條文，包括項目以及經費，我想各黨團在這兩個重大問題上顯然沒有辦法達成\n共識。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:56:25.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:46.394000+08:00","text":"我希望各位黨團幹部能夠繼續保持溝通，我們下星期一下午兩點半繼續召開朝野協商，\n要拜託各位黨團幹部能夠如期參加，也謝謝國防部顧部長跟各位列席官員，我們下禮拜一下午\n兩點半繼續開會。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:56:46.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:46.534000+08:00","text":"現在散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T16:56:47.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T16:56:48.176857+08:00","text":"散會（16 時 56 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